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the table in front of us please", "okay just for the record when we start we can get on the line for the record your names please", "thanks mark i'm dick gelerman town counsel", "cindy meyer town counsel", "john davis from pierce davis perritano", "jim cobery general counsel of the kraft group ian murphy the kraft group", "and dick would you like to start yeah thank you", "so when when we met with you just two nights ago just to reiterate the issue the issue is that the current insurer for the town for law enforcement the law enforcement policy has advised the town that as of july 1st the deductible for events that occur under the law enforcement policy is going to go to fifty thousand", "because of that increase which the board has told me they found unacceptable we're trying to find solutions to that problem", "and we've been working with the kraft organization on that", "what's happened since tuesday with regard to meyer is we spoke i spoke with them on yesterday on wednesday and asked them to a couple of things would they agree to postpone the increase in the deductible from seven thousand five hundred to fifty thousand would they agree to postpone that until we had the opportunity to resolve these insurance issues with the stadium they declined to do that", "i asked them if they i asked em if asked em if they would consider imposing the fifty thousand deductible only for concerts as opposed to soccer events on the theory that soccer is relatively benign in terms of crowd behavior they declined to do that", "and then with with john davis help we asked them whether they would consider a prorated premium change to effectively get them to the same place", "the proration thinking being that we get this resolved relatively quickly and therefore the cost the net cost to the town go down", "they declined to do that", "but the one bit of good news from meyer that came in a phone call copied by email today is that the fifty thousand deductible is applicable only to stadium events it's not applicable townwide", "so that's where we are today with mia", "attorney cobery and i have had more conversations with one another today and yesterday than either of us care for", "and i do want to say that he's worked very very very diligently to try to help the town resolve this issue", "he can tell you later but if i can steal the thunder they have been able to think they can get in place actually this new policy before the next event before july 6th", "and that's some kind of doing", "we've been told by both meyer and early in talking with jim that we were really looking at a thirty to sixty day timeline", "it looks like they've been able to manage that to go down to about ten days so here's where we are", "you don't have an event coming up until july 6th", "we're going to ask the board after all of the presentations to consider putting over your decision on conditions of the license until july 5th", "we're going to ask the board to approve to continue its approval of the licenses as long as you get in place by that date a law enforcement policy that provides the coverage to the town in the form acceptable to you with a deductible acceptable to you", "between now and then there's a lot more work to do", "and we've been working very hard on it", "cindy's been working both days drafting agreements drafting motions dealing with meyer as i have with jim cobery", "so we've all been doing a lot of work and we have made some progress we are not there yet", "we're we're further along but we're not there yet", "we have drafted and sent to jim sent a copy to the town manager also a possible agreement that we could work out", "that's going to depend the resolution of this is going to depend we first have to know what kind of a policy we can get what it's going to cost", "i do think i can represent that that cost we'll be able to work out the portion of the cost of the premium", "i'm not talking about the deductible now in a way that's reasonably reflective of what it would cost us on one side of the town and secondly what it would cost us because of the stadium", "i don't know the impacts of what the new deductible or what the deductible will be that jim's going to tell you about", "there are a lot of moving parts to it that he'll explain but i don't know the impact once we have in place a policy provided through the stadium's efforts i don't know the impact of what that would be on meyer except for certain that that fifty thousand deductible will go down to seventy five", "but we're not to think that the cost of the policy should also go down since they're no longer primary since they no longer would be providing primary coverage for the town for stadium events", "so the net effect costwise is hard to calculate at this point", "we will get there but we're just not there tonight", "so i guess i'll stop as that introduction", "at the end i will want to get back and talk to you about a motion that we've drafted", "and let me say i know we're all working hard but we're getting paid for it", "and here you are two nights out of three", "so thank you for that", "cindy you have anything to add no not at the moment no mark", "john no the only other thing that and this was i think dick alluded to this but when we realized that there was the issue of that letter that was accomplished the following morning and sent to mr cobery so that that could be accomplished", "and if they can play something within the next ten days that is a lot more that's a lot sooner than we were led to believe by other consultants we had spoken to in the past including meyer the other day when we spoke to joe callahan he thought thirty days was aggressive", "he thought it would take more like sixty days", "so if something can be placed in time for the first event of july the 6th that'd be great", "jim if you don't mind i'd like to set the context of what we're doing here and what is hopefully gonna happen over the next ten days the context very briefly is this all started with the weldnerdutton protective custody lawsuit", "with that lawsuit we realized that there were some gaps some areas that we could improve upon mutually improve upon our indemnification and the town's insurance program", "and we spent and when i say we dan john davis cindy dick and i started working on this back in december and spent a lot of time in december january february working out a new form of indemnification agreement which we were able to do", "and so by the end of february we came to an agreement about a new indemnification", "and i think that's a very reasonable document", "and i think it does protect all of us much better from situations like the weldnerdutton case", "when we finished that we turned our attention to the insurance protocol and what we could do to improve that", "and just so you know what we mean by improve that the current policy is a seven thousand five hundred per person deductible", "and with the weldnerdutton case what happens there is each person who is involved in that case in the event they prevail and i don't think they will prevail but in the event they prevail they're not likely to get more than seven thousand five hundred", "but there are a lot of them", "there are potentially thousands of plaintiffs in that case", "and so if it is certified as a class and you do get a thousand plus plaintiffs all establishing damages in the seven thousand five hundred range you have a very substantial liability there that's not covered by insurance that would be part of your existing deductible", "and think we all agree that there should be some room there to improve that coverage", "and so starting in early march we started really working pretty hard to figure out what we could do to improve that", "and the first step in the process was to find out if we could improve our insurance policy", "and so right now we provide you with additional insured coverage under our general liability policy", "and what that does plain and simple is if you are involved in any type of litigation or claim that is the result of our acts or omission or people that we control's acts or omission then you would presumably have coverage under our insurance policy", "what it doesn't do is cover you for acts and omissions that your employees or your agents people that we don't control would result in liability", "and so step number one was to find out if we could change our general liability insurance policy to extend the coverage to include your employees the police officers in this case", "and our insurance consultant a gentleman named mike norrick he went ahead and contacted our insurer", "and the insurer said no that they would not do it", "and so we reported that back", "and so and that obviously it was not acceptable so we started to check with other insurance companies and see if we could change insurers and get a better insurance policy", "and mike approached a number of insurance companies all of whom said basically the same thing", "they're not inclined to do that", "and the reason they're not inclined to do it is because they would be in a situation where they would be insuring some folks activities and we have no control over them", "and the lack of control was something that they really all of these insurance companies uniformly had difficulty with", "and so that information i came back to the group and we started talking about other ways of resolving this issue", "and so the next approach was for our insurance consultant to try to identify opportunities for a townpurchased law enforcement professional liability insurance policy or i'm sorry for us to purchase a law enforcement professional insurance liability covering the activities of the town police force", "and we're not able to do that", "same reason because we don't control them", "so we thought about could we get a separate policy that the town would purchase and we would pay for we're getting a little warmer with that one", "but quite frankly the insurance companies came back and said they'd prefer to have one policy covering the town as opposed to two policies", "if there are two policies one covering activities at gillette stadium and the other covering the rest of the town the insurers had a concern that there would be what's called the other insurance clause issue where the insurance companies effectively point at each other and each tries to suggest the other one should really be the primary insurer", "so long story but we eventually settled on the idea that we would try to find a better alternative to existing via insurance policy", "and then we would work out some arrangement to allocate the premium associated with that policy and our insurance consultant informally because we weren't authorized to do anything officially on your behalf but informally he went out and contacted insurance companies and he found three that are active in massachusetts who were willing to provide that coverage", "and they each had a slightly different variant", "you all are familiar with insurance and you know there's premiums and deductibles and selfinsurance and every flavor you can possibly imagine", "but we found three companies and they were willing to do something and it seemed like each of them offered something that could be interesting to us collectively", "so we spoke with dick gelerman and kevin pecos and the timeframe of this is roughly april timeframe", "and we basically said hey if you can give us a letter that authorizes our consultant mike norrick to review your loss data and also to talk officially with these insurance companies we will be able to get these informal discussions reduced to formal proposals which we can present to the town manager and whomever else", "and then collectively we can decide which insurance product we want to go forward with we did not receive that letter", "we asked for it a number of times including by email including in meetings", "you know we had a meeting at town hall in kevin pecos office in midmay where i emphasized to kevin that we were six weeks away from what i considered to be a deadline june 30th end of policy deadline and i really needed the letter to allow us to get the alternatives reduced to writing so we could resolve this issue", "i indicated to kevin at that time that six weeks was really a pretty short period of time for us to evaluate proposals", "first of all to obtain proposals then evaluate them and then buying the insurance policy", "so i was pretty emphatic that we really needed to get something pretty quickly", "and at that meeting kevin told me that he would that he understood the deadline understood how to get the authorization letter", "and i thought we were going to receive something very shortly thereafter we did not", "and i reminded him of that", "i reminded dick that i needed to get that letter", "i didn't get the letter until yesterday", "and i received the letter yesterday because dick and cindy and john really put a lot of effort into getting the letter for us", "and so yesterday was really the first time when we were able to have our insurance consultant go out there and touch the bases and really try to get what we had previously discussed sixty days ago into a more formal position", "he's working very very hard on it", "as all of us are working very hard on it", "originally this morning he told me that this was not even possible to do in less than thirty days told me i was being too demanding this was just completely nuts on my part to think that we could make it in time for the revolution game", "he worked very hard late today he sent me an email and i don't know all the details of it yet but he thinks that he will be able to get some proposals before the 4th of july and that we will be able to present them to you and hopefully get your approval so that we can have a policy bound before the revolution game but he i want to emphasize that it's unfortunate it came down to this last minute crisis it really is", "it's not because of the efforts of anyone sitting at this table that it came to this point", "i mean i think all of us were quite proactive and really mindful of the deadline and trying to make sure that it didn't become a crisis", "i think that all of us when it became a crisis really sprang into action and tried to deal with this as professionally as possible and to get this all resolved", "i wish this were not a crisis to be perfectly frank with all of you", "but i think that we are on the cusp of getting it resolved", "it's going to require a little bit of luck and a lot more hard work from this group and from mike norrick", "but i'm sincerely hopeful we can do that", "and that's really the background of what we're doing here", "ian you have anything to add nothing to add", "any questions from the board just so i can look at the schedule the revolution the event on the 6th is what that's the first revolution game yes", "that's the saturday 4th of july holiday", "it basically comes down to the 5th if we go in the direction of putting this off", "it's just a very very tight window just so you can start to think of that in discussing scenarios", "jenny anything at this time not right now", "lorraine just a couple of questions trying to understand the current insurance set up", "with the law enforcement policy that's currently part of our existing general liability coverage is that correct yeah it's out of our general town's miia policy yes it's a form to the mia contract yeah", "okay so we have a certain cost to that to the town right now correct including the law enforcement policy", "yes right so if we were to have that policy rewritten where that is no longer included i would assume there's some change in the overall cost to the town of that hump of yeah i think if it were removed entirely because you have substitute coverage i imagine there would be an adjustment in the premium or if it was kept intact but as sort of an excess law enforcement protection over and above alternative coverage i would again expect to be some sort of an adjustment to the preview", "okay so and i can't speak for mia that's just my right right", "so what i'm trying to figure out is a simple formula for calculating this because the impact certainly we've already made it clear that the fifty thousand deductible we can't do that", "so since we have to go this other route in terms of costs now for this new policy i'm thinking that the delta in our original policy without which covered us before we now have a new cost whatever the delta is subtract that from the new cost", "and i think that's one way of thinking about how to potentially address the cost impact", "lorraine if i could calculating the delta area is not as simple as taking fifty thousand and subtracting seven thousand five hundred", "no i'm talking about the policy cost not the deductibles", "okay but when you're trying to calc and i think you're absolutely right that's the question", "but how do you do the calculation you do need to look at the premium costs", "certainly you need to look at what's the new premium going to cost the town what's our portion of it what's the savings on the premium if meyer goes from primary to secondary primary to nothing those are relatively easy calculations to make", "the harder one for me at least and we've talked to the active town manager about trying to get some help on this is how do you calculate the costs to the town from going from a seven thousand five hundred per plaintiff per claim where we are now deductible to a fifty thousand per occurrence deductible they're different", "the potential impact is hugely different on the town", "how do you factor that in and that's one of the issues that we'll certainly have to look at between now and when we see you again on the 5th", "but that's an important distinction lorraine going from per claim to per occurrence is a big distinction for the town", "it does limit the overall cost", "whereas we don't have that kind of limit now", "i think though what i'm the point i'm trying to get at is that if there was not if there were not these stadium issues and you starting with the weldnerdutton case is really what brought all this to light that the town would never be faced with that fifty thousand deductible so no but we have been and we are faced with a seven thousand five hundred deductible per plaintiff", "right if it's determined to be a class action suit", "yeah well even if not in this case it's times four could easily without a class action get to be seven five seven thousand five hundred times a much bigger number than four which isn't the class and do the math", "you only have to it only has to be seven people and then we're ahead i think you understand where i'm coming from and just trying to keep the town whole in terms of we were assisting at a seven thousand five hundred deductible because of a certain policy that we had and now because of a changed situation yeah we're all aware now of the situation that existed for a long time", "unfortunately it never bothered us and yes which is why we're here", "and that's the solution that we're trying to solve", "it's a problem we're trying to solve in a way that keeps us whole absolutely", "if i may hold on one sec are you done just one other general comment", "i appreciate you laying out the timeline jim but i think i see how hard and hear how hard everyone is working right now", "and i think it's really not fair to throw kevin under the bus like this and not have him be present to explain why there was a delay", "i don't know the details of why there was a delay", "i do know that he has been absent for some time", "and so everyone at this table knew that he was absent for that time", "so i just would ask that we dismiss that", "if i may", "yes", "i started working on this issue with kevin in march well before anything happened with respect to kevin", "if at any point during that period of time he had simply delivered the authorization letter that i sought we would never have had this crisis", "i feel badly that kevin's not here i'm here", "this is actually my 15th anniversary", "my wife is furious that i'm here but i'm here and he's not", "and i'm here because i have respect for this process", "and i want to get this crisis resolved", "and it's undeniable that kevin could have issued this letter at an earlier point in time", "it's also undeniable that if he had we would have had this resolved a long time ago", "i just think it's unfortunate that no one on the board knew that", "if i may i'll get back to that", "good and you said multiple plaintiffs at seven thousand five hundred per deductible", "and it could be many more", "i think that's what i'm hearing out there", "if the town was at that kind of a liability risk and this just came about because of the duttonweldner case why would ever we want to proceed in the future even with that policy if there was going to be a chance that we could have a class action lawsuit down the road have a thousand people times seven thousand five hundred bucks to the point of seventy five million and the revenue stream that we receive per year at that at two years", "but when yeah i mean it would just and you know it's not smart business", "do you agree or disagree i think that's right", "one of the goals here ought to be to place a limit a cap on our exposure for any event that occurs up there which is our fault", "and maybe that's the good thing that'll come out of all this is that we'll have accomplished that", "but you don't have the exposure in every town", "you have it in so many towns that hold a big venue", "does mansfield have the same exposure with that venue they hold i mean do you have any well one of the differences mark is that we own the stadium and we own the police force", "now we don't we own the land under the stadium", "same as the fixture i guess", "so you know but that's the difference", "and you know jim i'll tell you an easy solution to the problem and i'm just repeating but you know don't own the police force", "have em do do their own policing of it", "i'm not suggesting that that's not a recommendation", "there's all kinds of ramifications from that", "but yeah", "but that is a solution", "but the followup though and i made the statement a long time ago i don't know if anybody remembers but the town is a liability because we own the land that's in the lease agreement", "why wouldn't we just change that and sell the land and get out from this whole situation i'm askin", "is there any reason why we wouldn't i would suggest that's an entirely different topic we've got a short window to get this thing resolved", "that question itself is i don't think we can begin to talk about that", "one more thing", "jim you kind of arranged that right", "you're throwing the town manager right now under the bus", "did you have any documentary any document to prove any of this or you just i mean i can't take it as hearsay", "i can't sit here and listen to hearsay", "if you've got something that can prove your point and if you're gonna make statements like that you need to prove em that's what i'm saying", "well i stand by my statements", "i will happily send you the emails that i have exchanged over the last three months", "i know that you were in a meeting with me when i spoke with kevin", "i know that selectman davelas was also in a meeting with me", "and i believe it was at that meeting where kevin told us that he would issue the letter that week and that he understood the deadline", "i mean we discussed what would happen in the crisis situation and what if anything we should be doing to protect the town from that crisis", "and it was six weeks ago which wasn't a lot of time", "and we talked about that but we did talk about it", "he did make commitments you were both there", "if i'm wrong please tell me because i'm not trying to throw him under the bus", "what i am trying to do though is let you know that this group has been working very very diligently", "this group has been very very focused on the potential crisis that could result if we miss a deadline", "i personally made kevin aware that we don't want to be in that situation", "we collectively don't want to be in a crisis situation", "we want to have this insurance issue resolved as early in the process as possible", "and we didn't we haven't", "we're sitting here today on the 27th of june in crisis mode and it didn't have to be that way", "but i will send dick gelerman the emails that i have and hopefully he'll provide them with you", "but i really do go back to that meeting we had in may that you were both at and we did talk about this issue and we did talk about what needed to be done", "and kevin did make commitments to all of us that he would do the authorization letter at a minimum", "if he had done it back then we would have had the proposals very very you know a week later ten days later", "we would have probably had this meeting in early june", "we would have decided upon a particular insurance course of action and we would never have the crisis that we have right now", "and that's not throwing someone under the bus but that is a statement of fact", "and it is about accountability", "tim you wanna yeah again caution the board", "and then i understand kevin's not here the meeting that we were at", "and please understand kevin is working from the time he's meeting with you on your issue", "he's also meeting with meyers he's meeting with the dealing with the weldnerdutton case and he's looking at the town as a whole", "so to jump out of that meeting and says that he's gonna do something without considering all the other facets that he's dealing with", "again if kevin's not here i just wish we get off this subject and focus on today is the 27th", "we've got an event on the 6th all this stuff i'm sure is gonna fall out one way or the other cause nobody wants to be in crisis mode", "but if we're gonna focus for the next hour on whose fault it was this is a little bit of uncharted territory", "we've got class action suit we've got a stadium with events coming up", "and if we don't start working together and stop pointing the fingers especially when a 3rd party is not here we're gonna be spinning a lot of wheels right now", "so if we want to get this thing resolved for an event next saturday let's talk about what our options are", "now we've spoken about you know individual claims versus claims in aggregate", "if there's different options out there and if we can get maybe the good news about that it's crisis mode is people work extra diligently because there's a deadline in a couple of days versus a couple months", "we've got to work together on this starting tonight", "and if we don't i mean basically we have one day it was the day after the 4th of july", "i don't even know who the heck's gonna be here that day", "so if we don't leave this room tonight with some type of a consensus i wouldn't be too comfortable about saturday on the 6th so", "sean", "yeah two questions", "one is you had mentioned that the insurance company mentioned that they would prefer to have one policy", "is that the way this is going or are we going to have an overlay policy on our existing policy it's going toward one law enforcement policy covering the town townwide as well as at the stadium", "and to go back to mark's statement you know if the stadium weren't here foxborough would just be a sleepy town in the boston suburbs", "with the stadium here we have these issues", "is there an instrument out there that the insurance companies may provide that could cap our liability to a reasonable level because as you mentioned even at the seven thousand five hundred there's still no limit and you take a look at it", "and if we were not to prevail in this class action suit we're still open to a substantial amount of payment which the town would have to bear so it's reinsurance okay maybe that's the term but if there's a reinsurance policy that could be an umbrella over the top that could potentially limit our liability i think we'd all feel more comfortable because even the seven thousand five hundred it's just people aren't forever depending on the number of plaintiffs that come forward", "if i may jim", "over the past six months i've actually had the opportunity to learn a lot more about this particular type of insurance than i ever had any interest in learning", "and what i've learned is basically the following", "every municipality with a police force buys this law enforcement professional liability insurance", "and there are a lot of different ways to buy the insurance", "the mia policy that you buy is one way", "and what i mean by one way your deductible is based upon a per claimant", "so every the weldnerdutton case is a wonderful example", "every person who was wrongly placed into protective custody has a potential claim for you", "and the first seven thousand five hundred of each one of those claims is for your account not for the insurer's account", "so that's one way to do this", "another way to do it and i actually have a copy of a policy here that's also in place in massachusetts and used by a lot of municipalities is to do it on a per wrongful event basis", "and if that were the case in if that policy were in place when the weldnerdutton claimants came into being what would happen is each one of those people would be part of the same wrongful event and they would all fall within the deductible", "and the deductibles on those policies are generally speaking and once again i'm a lawyer not an insurance consultant but what i've learned over the last six months is the deductibles on those per wrongful event policies are usually twenty five thousand to fifty thousand and obviously higher deductibles generally result in lower premiums and vice versa", "there are a lot of variants on those but those are in general the ways to do it", "and so municipalities that have a concern about overall exposure as you just expressed they like to go for the per wrongful event where you have a cap and then they decide how much of a premium tolerance they have and they decide whether to buy a twenty five thousand cap or a fifty thousand cap", "i understand further that mia has been evolving their law enforcement coverage to a higher deductible that you have had the good fortune of keeping the lower deductible for an extended period of time", "and you know that's part of what's going on here", "there a little bit of an anachronism going on with respect to your policy to your benefit", "but i think the alternatives that we will be able to get will show you that spectrum and you'll be able to choose where on the risk premium spectrum you want to be", "and i will also offer the gratuitous comment that when i first looked at your policy i thought that i would personally prefer to have the per wrongful event coverage because i like the catastrophic protection that you get in that circumstance", "you know when you have a fifty thousand wrongful event coverage you're not ever looking at millions of dollars of exposure", "you may be looking at more nuisances that you prefer not to deal with but you never get into a situation like weldnerdutton or where you suddenly have potentially a million dollars of exposure", "jim i'm all set thanks", "mark do you have anything to add if i may to try to address your issue mr gray the per person cap the per person deductible", "i'm not sure whether there is a mechanism but i have heard of insurers that have said there is a per person deductible but up to a maximum deductible", "so whether it's five persons or ten claimants i've heard of insurers that do that", "i don't know whether that is an option under the mia policy or under the policies of any of the other insurers that attorney cobery is speaking to", "wrongful events i'm aware that gl policies have per occurrence limits", "professional liabilities have wrongful events limits", "and i can appreciate that that can be for the catastrophic loss a better protection for someone or an insured like the town of foxborough", "i think we have to appreciate here that at least with respect to the weldnerdutton case the claimants there are four currently four plaintiffs", "counsel for the four plaintiffs has said that there may be in excess of two thousand seven hundred and they're talking about more than just one event", "so they're talking about the bruce springsteen concert the country fest events patriots games", "so i'm not quite sure how many when they say two thousand seven hundred i'm not quite sure how many events they're talking about", "the higher deductible i appreciate that the mia contract right now is at seven thousand five hundred", "my understanding was that the rationale for increasing it to fifty thousand was that the protection that both the town and mia thought was in place wasn't turned out not to be in place", "so that's why it's going up to fifty thousand and it was conditioned upon that it would stay at seven thousand five hundred if alternative insurance was in place", "and i don't know to get to what whether it makes more sense frankly to eliminate the mia law enforcement policy entirely or have it as excess law enforcement coverage over whatever the other alternative policy is", "i don't know trying to find out what the mechanics would be", "right right right", "so potentially you could structure it that if the town re kept that existing law enforcement policy in place that that could apply to all town related events and then this other policy could strictly cover stadiumrelated events i would think so", "i mean i'm not an insurance consultant as well but i always thought that there could be a way to define stadium event in such a way that the new policy covers the stadium events and the mia policy covers nonstadium events", "i think that sounds like the cleanest and they agree to a common definition so that nothing falls through the cracks", "right okay thank you", "anybody else on the board at this point bob anything to add i'm just sensitive to the timeframe as jim already mentioned", "we have very few days to try to apply for a policy", "understand that's the beginning of the process correct yes", "and you know tomorrow's friday you get the weekend and then you have 4th of july on thursday and you would need to plan another meeting on the 5th", "on the 5th so just i won't be in town on the 5th", "so those are the issues that you're dealing with", "you just have to be aware of the time limitations", "i can't there's no way i can be here on the 5th", "james too anybody else gone on the 5th something that the whole board needs to be together", "sean you i'm around", "the other issue is if you recall the events that we permitted are contingent upon an indemnification agreement being reached by june 30th", "so come july 1st it's a potential that those permits are null and void so we would have to have an extension tonight or up until i guess friday to extend it up until july 4th 5th 6th whenever we do that yeah i have in anticipation of that drafted a motion for you but the look was the two of you are gonna be away on the 5th yeah", "yeah well yeah two and a half hours away", "well let us look into a way of doing a i don't know that we can do this", "are you available by phone or by it's not allowed it's not allowed by our bylaws anyway so it's just they didn't adopt that provision no they voted not to have it so it's not permitted", "so i think you got til wednesday unfortunately", "wednesday what's the date well we've got five people on board we have a quorum of three", "yeah but it's just not right for the whole board not to be here", "i just think this is something that the whole board especially what you we all have to offer needs to be together as one and i just don't see that", "i wouldn't want that to happen i'm sorry", "can we go in the direction of having the two separate policies stadium definition town definition", "see if that works with mia and whoever the other i guess whatever the other potential insurers are", "and that way we know we're covered", "you know we wouldn't cancel the m you say not cancel the mia policy", "the problem being that right now we can't tell you if the mia policy is effective whether or not you're going to be exposed to the fifty thousand deductible", "but if we correct me if i'm wrong but if the mia policy will be in effect it will be", "however it'll be subject to a fifty thousand deductible for stadium events", "correct", "which isn't a problem until july 6th", "correct", "right so exactly i said this at the other meeting", "why can't in fact we cover that deductible until we get this straightened out it's the simplest way of getting this through", "because we're unwilling to do so", "it's not our responsibility if you think about it for a moment here", "we made application for an event and you rightfully said there are some conditions one of which is that we need to have police details for these events", "and that's fine we're happy to have police details", "we're happy to pay the detail rate for them", "you are the ones who obtain the law enforcement professional liability insurance", "we obtain the general liability insurance", "we cannot you know i said earlier that our consultant has gone out there and tried to find any way possible for us to buy law enforcement professional liability insurance on your police force and we cannot", "we just simply cannot do it it's just impossible", "for the exact same reason that an insurance company won't issue that policy we can't do the indemnity", "we don't have control over the individuals that we would be asked to indemnify and the delta between seven thousand five hundred and fifty thousand is a lot of money i mean you'd be talking about hundreds of millions of dollars of potential exposure over people that we don't have any control", "so what you're asking i understand that's something that we've all thought about", "if there were a way to do it we would certainly do it but it's just too much money with too little control", "it just won't work", "and that's exactly why we're here because we can't deal with that either", "well we're dealing with it right now because mark one suggestion i have in terms of trying to get us to the 5th is", "well the 5th is out as far as i'm concerned because i can't be here jim can't be here", "well i'm two and a half hours away i'll drive back", "but if i can address that for a second mark is the open meeting law does not prohibit you from talking to me and you talking to me and what your thoughts are i can't share that", "so it's sequential", "i can't say i can't tell the rest of the board this is what mark thinks this is what jim but i can listen", "if there were a meeting on the 5th at that meeting i can express on your behalf what you're both thinking", "hopefully there'll be some information to respond to as a way to resolve this so that there can be a meeting", "you have a quorum on the 5th", "i can present at that meeting an open meeting for the first time to your colleagues and what you're thinking on this issue", "it would be hard to tell you what i'm thinking when i don't know the conversation dick that's gonna come forward", "yep that's the limitation mark", "i think you know what i say go for the 3rd", "that's what i say you know what we'll try to work with you and randy'll be here and you need to do it by the 3rd", "i want to be here i think everybody here's a must", "this board works well together everybody has to you know good insight and good input to put in the conversation", "so randy would you like to say something i'm just curious about the procurement rules that would apply here", "is that another stumbling block for us here or not you know bid process and policy gonna be over twenty five thousand", "this is subject to a bid because it's the town bank policy", "yeah i think it has to go to open bid john correct yup", "all right so that makes it impossible right there", "is that what we're saying if the town is purchasing it", "yeah i mean is that what you were saying jim the town would have to purchase it we cannot purchase it", "so that right there we're done", "didn't we just get a new policy from mia yes", "it was one of the and the town manager followed the bid process", "so that public bid process was adhered to", "mmhmm this would be an addendum or an amendment to that is that it would be a separate policy correct the mia could a different insurance company yeah so mia would not be the insurance company on a standalone policy", "has anybody seen the bidding the rfp for that well it's the thirty day procurement right i don't know what it said", "randy help me out here it's what you do or you help do", "you know that's a minimum yeah i think that's a minimum of thirty days", "and is it over twenty five thousand oh it's absolutely gonna be over twenty five thousand policy it's on", "my my understanding is that it will be roughly between thirty and fifty thousand of premium that's that puts us out of the room right there", "well could we do a policy for six months and then do another six month policy just to get it under the procure no randy said no", "that's really stretched", "nice thought but i think that's against the law", "there is one piece of legislation how that came about", "yes there is one piece of legislation that's pending i'm not sure how it's doing could raise those limits to fifty thousand i could check on that", "no i don't think the legislature's meetin over the holidays are they this session would end this week i'm not sure if that's one of the goals", "we've run into another road block", "i'll check on them", "well thank you for your input randy you guys want to take a five minute break and think about this or do you want to sit here and muddle the thoughts muddling sounds good yeah", "you know i i look at the issue and i say the the mia policy as it's going to take effect on july 1st with the fifty thousand per person i understand your concern about that but that is the same concern that i have about this", "so i certainly share your concern on that one", "we are trying our best to make this happen", "and everyone is at this table", "it's not an effort on my part or dan's part it's a universal effort on this side of the table", "it may be that it's just going to take longer than next week to get this done to comply with all the laws rules etc", "i go back to what i said before", "when you approved the event license you were acting within your statutory power to impose conditions related to public health and safety", "and one of the conditions that you imposed was that a police detail take effect", "the problem that we have right now is that the insurance for your police detail is unacceptable in terms of the risks that are we really gonna go down this road jim which is what that you don't want us to have our police officers there that we privately secure the no i wouldn't suggest that we privately secure them", "but if and i throw this out and i don't offer any criticism whatsoever but if your risk profile is such that the first thirty days or so you can't do it i would be willing to go talk to lieutenant stewart and see if he could provide the police presence that you would very legitimately request under the event license for the 6th of july", "and until such time as we get this i'll have three hundred and fifty grievances on my desk on monday morning how are the state police insured if i might we have a town bylaw that does not allow for that", "yeah it states that the chief of police foxborough chief of police is in charge of public safety in town excluding you know a state highway", "yeah so it's not a good idea", "well you know what that's it's not a solution i don't mean to i mean at this point anything else to say dan the disagreement that we're having is fifty thousand per occurrence yeah but it's over a contingency", "it may or may not occur right it may or may not occur", "we disagree with the kraft organization as to who are to be responsible for that cost should we have that cost", "we may never have that cost that would be nice", "a thought is that we continue to disagree about that issue and hope it doesn't happen", "if it does happen so thought is you issue the licenses and you put in the provision that if there is a deductible imposed upon the town a cost to the town of fifty thousand for something that occurs that that is a forty two thousand five hundred of that or some number is payable by the kraft organization", "i've been asking and they've declined it", "let me finish they're gonna say no but they could say if we reached agreement they could say we don't agree with that condition", "we're going to accept it not file any litigation today over it but accept that with the understanding that in the event that that does occur they reserved their rights to challenge that provision", "that's a possible solution what we're doing is if i can interrupt you", "owning a business i have this thing called worker's compensation liability and unemployment taxation", "if i don't pay those they send a notice to everybody i do business with and they cancel it", "and i'm out of business til it's reinstated", "i can't operate without insurance it's against the law", "i'm not saying you don't i'm not saying you operate without insurance", "we go forward with insurance", "but we have the policy in effect", "policy says that if there's a claim arising out of a stadium event there's gonna be a fifty thousand deductible", "what i'm saying to you is there may not be such a thing", "i mean keep in mind that there hasn't been very many", "and even with weldnerdutton there's no clear evidence that there even is one today", "so we're talking about a potentiality that experience tells us doesn't happen very much", "we're not jim and i have i guess in the year that i've been working with him for the first time we're pretty loud with one another okay we're not my sense is we're just not gonna reach agreement on that", "what i'm saying is that you issue your licenses you impose the condition", "they don't agree with the condition but they accept the license", "they don't run into court this week and say unlawful condition they say we'll accept it", "but we're going to reserve our rights in the event that it ever comes to be that there is a fifty thousand deductible that we have to face", "at that time if it happens we litigate it", "it's a simple enough thing to litigate and we either win or we lose", "but it only is for so long as we can get ourselves the kind of policy that we should have gotten before tonight", "okay but dick is it responsible for us to expose the taxpayer to that sort of claim i don't think we could sleep at night", "well john john i'd say we", "they could call on monday morning", "oh hold on hold on you have been exposed", "you have been exposed to a claim we're trying to avoid being exposed any further dick i know i understand that", "but you have been exposed to much more money than that and whatever you do you're going to have some exposure for a deductible for an insurance policy", "you are you always have and you will again", "what that number is we're trying to limit", "but i don't think you're being irresponsible for doing that", "one might argue that it's more responsible to have a fifty thousand deductible than seven thousand five hundred if it's for a short period of time and we can go to an occurrence basis", "dick that would be fine if it was an occurrence basis but it's not now", "the exposure is multiple millions of dollars", "yeah", "and i you know we're a municipality", "we're not a for profit business", "i know so i just don't know how you could expect the board to accept that as a solution", "i don't think our stock holders would like it too much", "i see john raising the i have not spoken with mr norrick your consultant but if the krafts have civil rights coverage because they have civil rights exposure so i assume the kraft organization would have civil rights coverage", "is there no way that the town can be added as an additional insured to the kraft's policy that provides them civil rights coverage as the named insured i've asked that question several times", "and the answer has always been no because we don't have control over your officers we cannot extend the coverage in that circumstance", "if you'd like to give us control over your officers it would happen automatically", "but i don't think anyone wants that to happen", "i think with the bylaws we've gone over that", "that's against the law", "couple of other things that are against the law the procurement thing would be against the law", "but then what was contemplated when the krafts agreed to provide the town with civil rights coverage right", "well i think now you're trying to position me so i respectfully will decline to answer that", "okay okay well it's like well it's the only an anybody else got any", "so we never had civil rights coverage once again i think you're trying to position me", "i'm not", "no no i don't think you are", "well we licensed events at the stadium and we had the motion attached to it that if insurance coverage was not i mean if this insurance issue was not cleared by june 30th", "then the town foxborough has the right to take back that license and not not have you know not license that event", "the license is null and void", "so it was very clear", "it was very clear when we did vote that that that was a possibility if this insurance issue was not resolved", "if i may", "mmhmm", "the license conditions require us it's quid condition three require us to obtain an insurance certificate with certain details", "we have obtained that insurance certificate and we've provided it to the town and we have received no word back that the insurance certificate is acceptable or not acceptable", "so at this point in time i think that you're right that you did require us to obtain insurance and you set it forth in the terms and conditions that were attached to the license", "and we think that we've given you an insurance certificate that complies with what's in those terms and conditions", "we think that what's been going on here is that you're looking for additional coverage because of the change in deductible from the mia policy", "and we're happy to work with you we really are", "and we're really trying very very hard to deliver some alternatives to help you on that", "but that's really the nature of what we're doing here", "it's not so much us failing to obtain the coverage that we can reasonably obtain", "it's that the time for obtaining the coverage that gives you the right risk profile is just closing so rapidly that's no and i appreciate that but the thing is we cannot let the town be on the hook in case something happens", "so i mean we are responsible and i don't want to expose the town of foxborough to the fifty thousand deductible just in case something does happen", "it seems the only way out of this in the temporary space is and i think the board pretty much stands together on this is that the deductible will be covered if it needs to be by the kraft organization i think it's the only out", "i think we beat it up pretty good here", "i don't know if you want to take a couple of minutes like i said and take a recess and think about it", "we don't we don't have to we cannot accept that", "and you're asking us to do something you don't accept", "and i mark could i take a break and talk to jim for a minute or two", "yes take a break", "frank call us up for about ten minutes please", "be right back", "okay we're back thanks for waitin", "dick do you have anything to add i do", "what i guess we're going to ask you to do is to put this over until july 3rd when hopefully by that date we'll have more concrete information for you", "we will do this in a way that does not require a procurement by the town", "so we avoid any 30b issues or we'll do it in a way that is in compliance with chapter 30b depending on the numbers", "and do you realize that july 3rd is", "wednesday before july 4th", "well no it's a lot of did you say you're not here the 3rd well i'm not supposed to be but if i have to be i will be", "right", "i mean there's nothing they can do about the dates", "well i understand that but what time are you planning to have this meeting cause it's not gonna be a seven hundred or eight hundred meeting", "it's going to be more like a four hundred or five hundred or six hundred meeting because it's going to go two hours and mark is five hundred okay with the board is five hundred okay with the board that's fine", "jim are you here or are you gone i'm here now", "well you know let's set it for five hundred let's just but can you give us a maybe not a status quo if you're not gonna be prepared for the meeting we'll just i don't want to go and come in back on the 3rd without having an understanding of what direction we might be thinking of going", "i mean in order to avoid the exposure of fifty thousand per claim", "i got it i told him he can't here til five hundred and thirty six hundred", "who can't be the guy filming", "we don't even know where we're going to be", "we don't know if we have the room we don't know who's saying the fca wouldn't be able to be ready for us til six hundred and thirty", "right", "yeah", "and we don't even know where we could have it yet", "there's no way i can come in on wednesday right", "right", "so town hall's open randy yeah", "does it have to be recorded does it well i think that people deserve the right to see it i mean yeah but if there's not but if it's posted they can come", "yeah well you know what then we're gonna have people come and occupy the room cindy it'd be over seventy say seventy people and then you can't have the meeting anyways bob yeah six hundred before the 4th of july is going to be five people", "five people nobody's gonna be there but us", "but actually jenny you know i know i appreciate that", "but after some of the conversation we've had here tonight i think we might see thirty five police officers there", "yeah could we circle back to the let's yeah i mean one of the solutions that we discussed was not having the police other than what's been done all these years continue with that", "so that that's not what we're talking about", "we're the reason to go to july 3rd is we hope we'll hopefully we'll have more concrete information about the type of policy", "we will do it within the procurement law and by that i mean we're not gonna purchase the town will not be expending its funds for this policy", "and we will try to address i mean the whole goal is to try to address not having the town exposed to multiple fifty thousand deductibles", "randy would you like to speak how do we i thought i heard mr cobery say that they weren't allowed to purchase insurance for that on the town's behalf", "the acqu we are not going to purchase it's not going to use any public funds for this acquisition", "we get a gift we have to work those yeah but so if it is a gift doesn't it have to also be accepted by the board of selectmen look there's a lot of things that have to be figured out and ascertained and determined between now and july 3rd okay you can't do that sitting here tonight", "we have a procurement issue", "if we can't address it then we won't but give us the opportunity to do so you know right", "we've got a commitment that they'll pay for it", "we just have to figure out a way that they can do so legally", "so we're not looking to a procurement", "okay", "anybody have anything to add if that is a scenario that works so be it", "we'll go in that direction", "but just so i'm clear we have mia coverage up until june 30th under the seven thousand five hundred per claim", "we've already signed and sent in money", "i don't know about that", "we have the new coverage starting july 1st", "so we're covered throughout", "is there an opportunity for either the coverage that ends on june 30th to extend it another month and work out there where it's not a procurement issue it's less than ten of a change and you can extend it until july 30th on the existing or take the coverage that's gonna start on july 1st and change it for the first two months", "so if the premiums are going to come up the deductibles will come down and that one month or two months bring it through august would be something that we addressed on a cash value yeah i mean i asked that and i'll ask it again", "but i've already asked and been told not those questions", "you asked it to mia yes in the conference call that we had with joe callahan the other day that was addressed and he said no yeah at least the second part of that whether they would give us a thirty day policy i don't know", "yeah", "yeah but would they give us the seventy five but at a high premium for two months no he said they wouldn't do that", "thank you", "i have a question about the civil rights coverage after july 1st and the certificates that we have received that we have the conditions on that everything has to be acceptable to the town and there's language that's different on here from prior years certificates", "and i don't see the language that says civil rights coverage on here so i just wanted to ask where that comes in on this policy on this binder i'm asking jim", "i don't know what document you have in front of you", "this is the document that comes with the applications from the stadium for the license the certificate of liability", "it's the binder that you provided with your application", "right", "that was on there before this is part of this is pulled from the country fest application", "so the new one", "the new one", "was it updated before from the previous this was part of the application that we said we would license subject to if we have understood but i it's different from last year's was that on there before and then got taken away is that what you're saying i did see it there before", "jim is not acknowledging whether it existed or not", "so i want to know going forward that it does it exist now and then i'd also like to ask john if you could review the prior binders to this binder just if that's something that we've got on there yeah", "for these events that we're talking about right now", "does that make sense mmhmm", "okay thank you", "i will ask mike norrick if you don't mind to tell me where that's in this certificate there's a new certificate that we provided that i can certainly send over to you as well", "okay", "that's been sent over since since the application process yes we traditionally june 30th is the time when insurance policies roll over and ours does as well", "so we sent you a new certificate to show that we have insurance coverage effective july 1st", "just sent that in in the pasttuesday", "so i will tell you this i don't read these insurance tributes very often", "i apologize for that but we do have civil rights coverage", "where it shows up on that certificate i don't know", "and i will ask mike to point out to me where it is", "the issue that john was raising before is is it civil rights coverage that covers the kraft group and its employees etc or does that coverage extend to the town and it's a very nuanced answer that would probably bore you", "and i not really", "that's okay we need to know because it's just a black and white question", "jim could you also ask him say i looked at that certificate and unless the new one is different that covers x of the named insured which would be the kraft group", "so that to me would exclude actions of the police the foxborough police", "so that doesn't really cover what we're talking about here", "and that's different", "please allow me", "i'm not an insurance lawyer by any stretch of the imagination but what i understand from talking to mike norrick in particular but also some other people is basically the following", "we have fairly robust insurance coverage given the nature of our fairly diverse business portfolio", "and we have general liability insurance property insurance all those different things that you'd expect", "within the liability portion of our insurance coverage we have civil rights coverage", "we also have as part of our overall insurance regime standard endorsements that relate to among other things additional insurance coverage and our endorsement that deals with additional insured coverage says in essence please once again i'm well outside of my expertise here but what i understand it says is as an additional insured you are covered in the event that we or people who work for us or over whom we have control do something that generates liability or the threat of liability", "so a good example of this is when we are the tenant and the landlord who is purely passive doesn't do anything but leases us space", "when our employees do something that generates liability and the landlord gets sued as part of that even though the landlord has done nothing because they are our additional insured in that case our coverage is extended to them because it's an action or omission of our employee that gave rise to that coverage", "so we have that type of coverage and it's routinely extended to our additional insureds", "and you are one of the additional insureds", "so you have that level of coverage", "where the great minds of this table diverge is whether our coverage should extend to also include the acts or omissions of your employees", "and our policy does not as far as i know does not go that far", "and that's one of the lengthy discussions that john and i have had over the past six months", "yeah i got one too all right you all set paul what's the next event after the 6th bon jovi on the 12th on the 12th", "or the 20th", "the 20th the 20th i don't know if so it's not the 12th no it's the 20th i've heard bon jovi's the 20th swift's the 26th 27th i've heard over and over again that there's never any situation at any soccer games that they're very low key", "they are very well under twenty thousand people typically around fifteen", "it's a very uneventful event", "so why don't you use you should be in marketing mark does not go into marketing nobody wants to i'm trying to make a point here", "comes with us for sweep", "mark why don't you can we just work i just wanna say and come back on the 3rd of july no i really don't want to", "because you're interrupting everybody's family lives here and it's becoming troublesome", "and everybody here's got a family and they've got things they wanna do", "and to overdedicated yourself during that causes situations with your family and it's not fair to the spouse not fair to the kids who've been looking forward to things for a long time including your own insurer", "my solution here that i wanna see happen is you say you've all stated soccer events we should just have it", "don't worry about the license it's a soccer event", "there's never any issues at em", "free up to 4th for everybody pony up the deductible for that one event gives you another fourteen days to work through this", "if everybody says there's not ever any problem at it cover the deductible for that one event", "it gives you another four more than fourteen days to come through with a plan here that's all you gotta do", "unfortunately we can't do that", "well you can ask your boss", "yeah no believe me i hear from him quite a bit", "because you know what it's just i don't see it happening any other way", "it gives you more time your pressurin everybody here on the board i mean you really are", "you got jenny has plans jim's away for the week", "i'm gone on friday", "you know if my boss asked me to work i tell him no", "you know what i'm saying so i just think it's an unfair thing to do", "i understand the urgency in your aspect but to pony up the deductible for one soccer event to come through a debt and free up everybody give everybody ample time to get this straightened out", "it doesn't seem like a lot if ya ask me", "if i may i mean yeah we just can't do that is what it comes down to", "and i hope you can understand that", "i certainly understand the inconvenience and i don't want anyone here to be inconvenienced by any stretch of the imagination", "if i could figure out another way i certainly would", "but unfortunately we just as relatively calm as the soccer matches are we just are not in the insurance business is what it comes down to", "but we are insured", "so if all you do is cover the deductible in writing for that one event it gives everybody almost three weeks to get through this i don't think it's a lot to ask", "if you look at the history of the events have you ever had any problems cause i'm about to make a motion of that aspect to the board and i'm hoping they go with me on it", "because i really don't want this to go into next week", "i just don't think i think it's a lot to ask", "we've done it before on christmas", "we've had to have major meetings the two days after christmas", "it's not general policy for the board to just make special meetings for everybody", "this board has been ample to everybody that's ever asked for one", "and i'm now asking you just to go back to your boss and ask him a question that's all", "i don't think it's too much to ask", "it gives everybody more time it's one event the most undercosting event of them all right there's hardly any costs at em", "hardly any right it's the same group of people", "is not a concert kind of atmosphere where it's a mixed group of people that go there once a year or whatever it's a different entity of people", "so that's where i am what do you think john well you're asking them to selfinsure", "no i'm not asking them to selfinsure", "i'm asking them to pay the deductible", "you're looking for a solution", "if we wait until the 5th i'm not sure what's gonna come out of it it's unknown", "nothing i can guarantee right now nothing'll come out of it", "and we're talking about the 3rd not the 5th", "now we're talking about the 3rd", "oh man you know i wouldn't be certain that nothing'll come out of it i think something might", "i mean i understand the inconvenience to the board", "i wouldn't be suggesting we go to the 3rd if i thought it was a waste of time", "right but i can see the inconvenience to you", "it's not just the board", "it's a lot more people than just the board", "it's cable access it's the town i can tell me it's the finance department it's all the people that work for the town it's trickling down", "i just don't see that there's a big issue with that for that one event", "and i'm gonna be adamant about it", "and if you allowed me to be adamant", "those events are relatively relatively calm", "another way to address this issue is for you to lessen the police detail requirement at that event", "just help me please get that ball game now", "yeah you could say for that one event we are gonna allow the stadium to provide their own security", "and if something happens we call chief o'leary and get people to come down i mean that happens a lot", "i mean where you allow people other license holders like liquor license holders in town don't always have to have police details at their bars sometimes they do", "over three hundred and fifty people you need to have a police detail but other times they don't", "and so it's within your power to say recognizing that soccer games are relatively benign and recognizing that this is an extraordinary circumstance we're gonna allow you to go forward with your team ops force", "but it doesn't go on beyond that day number one", "and number two if something happens you have to call chief o'leary and now we're back to bylaws right right", "correct", "the bylaws prevented that i agree with you but it's really not even up to this board", "it's up to the chief of police and he has made it very clear his policy on security up at the stadium", "could we ask chief o'leary if he could grant some grace on this", "once again we'll have about thirty five grievances on our table on monday morning", "if not before that probably tomorrow morning", "i'm simply trying to help i mean well i am too", "yep", "and i think the board i can i just ask something go ahead cindy", "how many police officers are there usually at the stadium on a soccer event oh twenty five", "it's really pretty small", "it's a very small not like three hundred and fifty for a football game or more", "or a concert's sometimes more than three hundred and fifty right help me out", "you shouldn't have as them about numbers", "well no i'm just trying to figure out what type of numbers we're talking about", "i really don't think that's relevant because the chief is in charge of security and he is not gonna agree to this", "right no he won't", "he's just not going to", "lorraine how does the stadium insure the state police for these types of situations we don't", "they're off property right they're not on your property no they're on our property but we don't insure them they don't ask for insurance and we don't provide insurance to them", "and if part of what i've learned over the last six months is that's actually relatively common", "you know talked to the red sox", "we talked to the folks at td bank north garden", "they don't have an obligation to provide insurance for the police details or the municipality", "they probably provide an indemnity and the indemnity is very similar to the indemnity that we have now but there's no insurance requirement there", "and to be fair dick and i have a difference of opinion about why the red sox and the bruins and celtics operate one way and we are being asked and you know i truly like and respect dick so i don't want to suggest otherwise but they don't provide insurance", "and the reason for that is baked into the detail rate is an overhead component but i think that's also the case here in foxborough", "you know we're starting to get off the topic", "i'm not i don't mean to cut you off jim but that's really not a part of this discussion", "anybody on the board feel like my suggestion's good one about making them cover the cause i think that's an amicable solution to this at this point in time it's a low risk for you", "and what i mean a couple of fifty thousand let's stick to the seven thousand five hundred so you really only had forty two thousand five hundred", "okay and it's gotta be in writing", "and then you can have your event on the 6th", "it gives you to the mark it isn't forty two thousand five hundred because it's per it's forty two thousand five hundred per claimant", "right well that's the liability of this board is not gonna well i'm just explaining we've been through this over and over again", "we're not willing to take that risk you're not either", "so we're at a stalemate it's business okay", "and we represent seventeen thousand people that own the town", "so we're asking you since it's such a risk low risk thing that everybody portrayed to me", "over the last ten days i've heard oh soccer's no big deal it's a low risk", "you can let it go for the fifty thousand deductible for just those events well this buys you time frees up everybody for twenty one days basically and i think it's a good idea", "and i don't think it's that much to ask", "so how does the board feel about that does anybody feel like this is a good solution or do we want to sit here and bang heads all night can we do that yeah we can make that motion", "if they accept it they accept it", "is it enforceable no they're gonna take it as not acceptable", "right hmmi think they've said that they can't that they said for all i think their focus there lorraine is on concert events larger venues they're looking to get this fixed up", "this gives them more time", "i mean it's either that or nothing at this point", "right", "and i mean really what are we going to do here i think well i think one thing", "if we gave everybody until the 3rd the outcome is still potentially the same depending on what happens we will not compromise on the fifty thousand deductible and we will have so then we'll have a two hour meeting so then on the 3rd hopefully doing it on a 3rd potentially gives time to work it out so that we don't get to that point", "we're at that point today", "but we're trying to free up the board from all the inconveniences", "oh what about this mark it's and i believe me i know what you're talking about trying to give up the day before a holiday", "i don't know what you guys talked about in the ten minutes but if you're fairly confident that you can get from there to there to the 3rd expedite it a little bit work on a saturday sunday whatever you gotta do and we'll wrap this up on the 2nd", "if you're here on the 2nd we'll do it", "if you're not here on the second sorry there's five people we gotta go with four three", "this is a big enough issue that i think we need to hmmm yeah go a few days to give them an opportunity", "yeah but if on the 3rd it's still a stalemate then cancel", "we don't have it", "it's canceled", "i don't know what else to say right but i'm wondering if they can discuss this with their entire organization and come back they can go discuss this right now and take five minutes", "mark's suggestion among yourself", "it's just for one event", "if i could interject to answer your question i'll be comfortable well before the 3rd whether or not the procurement issue is solvable okay i'll let you know and if i find out there's no hope then there's no hope there's no sense of my coming in on the 3rd and telling you that", "i'll tell you that well before and you can cancel the 3rd", "but then we still can't make a decision", "we need to make a motion tonight to have them have an alternative in place because we're not going to reconvene for some other scheme", "no mark i understand that", "but if i could just continue settle down", "mark you gotta watch what you say and how you say it", "well everybody sitting at this table deb is trying to circumvent the bylaws the laws of the town and it's not working out", "and i understand that but if you go back to the original thing is if the letter was written eight weeks ago stop stop", "so mark let me get back to that", "if you were to schedule me for the 3rd if prior to the 3rd at least on the procurement issue the bylaw issues if it's clear to me we're not going to be able to meet to comply with those bylaws and with procurement statutes i'll tell you i'll tell you well before the 3rd", "well not well before the 3rd", "i'll probably tell you on monday", "and it's not the first meeting you've canceled", "in terms of the issue how are we gonna solve the problem which to me the problem is the fifty thousand", "it's not procurement it's not compliance with bylaws", "that's not up to me that's up to jim", "and he sees it's not gonna happen he'll tell me i'll tell you and you in other words i don't expect the board to convene on the 3rd without their having the expectation that we've solved the problem", "right but what i'm saying to you we can make the motion tonight to back up what i said fifteen times about now to allow them to proceed to have the event if they will take on the deductible if they don't want to accept that at that point in time because you're going to make the board reconvene one way or another", "no i think that's fine", "i think what you're suggesting is fine", "so we kick it over to the 3rd", "in the event that the board is unable to reach agreement on that date then in order to obtain a license go forward they're going to have to for that there's just one soccer event between", "now and the 20th", "then that's the condition of the board if that's how the board feels", "and i get you on that sure", "and all i have to do is draft that motion", "yeah i think there's two", "i think there's one the following weekend two soccer events and bon jovi's on the 20th when's the next one i don't have it in front sorry", "i think its like 6th and 12th i don't have the soccer schedule", "randy i thought the 12th rang a bell as well yeah", "i certainly appreciate your efforts", "i do want to let you know though that mike norrick is going out on a limb and saying he will have something for us before the 6th of july", "now we're talking about having it a couple of days earlier", "so i what i'd like to do if it's okay with you is i will call mike first thing tomorrow morning and run this new schedule by him", "and if he says it's hopeless i will send a note to dick and let him know that and then this whole thing is then you can't have an event", "i'm trying to give you an out from a motion tonight", "oh i'm sorry all i'm suggesting is as soon as i know that it's impossible i will let you know", "and hopefully that'll be at least helpful as far as schedules are concerned that's the best i can do", "do you want this board to make a motion where i'm getting repetitive that you can have your event as long as your ko group agrees in writing to cover the difference in the deductible the fifty thousand to have the soccer games giving us time to work through the rest of the situation because we're not gonna meet", "if you don't come together with some plan then there's nothing", "we're not coming back to the table to talk about it anymore", "then you can't have the event", "i think that's how we're going", "you're saying if you don't have nothing together by monday or tuesday you're not gonna ask us to reconvene", "if we can't reconvene before the 6th then there's nothing", "do you want something well i'm probably being too much of a lawyer and i apologize for that but i'm really looking at this and saying that we have our insurance and we've provided you with this certificate and i need to provide an answer for you i will do that", "this is insurance that we cannot get", "and we are facilitating in essence we are really trying hard to find insurance for your police detail so that you can have an acceptable level of risk for the events we hold at the stadium", "so with all of that in mind i don't think it would be helpful if that's what you're asking to have the motion that you're suggesting", "i think what would probably be most helpful if you wouldn't mind is for me to check in with mike norrick tomorrow and find out what he thinks about the schedule and then let dick know and then whatever you feel is appropriate you certainly should do but i don't want to cause you to come in when you don't have to", "if we don't have something in the way of a proposal then you know let's all enjoy the 4th instead", "why don't we post a meeting for monday and tuesday and wednesday and just have it there in case we need to just following this to the logical conclusion then the event doesn't happen", "and that's exactly what i said three times", "then you have nothing if you don't come to an agreement", "to be clear there'll be litigation we will be in so you all know what's going to happen here we're gonna be in court next week if we can't solve it then", "then what good was that then what good was during the application process that we had that motion what good was that if it's not binding if we can't pull the license because the condition hasn't jen you are gonna pull the license yeah but if they do litigation that means they'll have the event anyway", "i mean what good what good is doing anything if the event's going to happen anyway and what good is trying and putting the town at risk", "i am advise i would be shocked if you if a license was pulled that they would simply not hold the event without seeking court intervention", "and they probably'll win but you know what we did our jobs", "okay i'm just that's what it's all about here is protecting the town and for the voters that put us here", "jim us now this is gonna turn into a rodeo", "mr chairman yeah please i have neither one of us have threatened any litigation", "and i want to make that clear", "we're really trying to work together", "and we've been trying to do that for over six months", "and i'm gonna try again tomorrow to get mr norrick to move even faster than he's already moving and i'm sincerely hopeful that this could all have been cooperatively", "but please we're not threatening any litigation", "and we are sincerely hopeful that things work out here", "and i do really like your idea selectman and if you wouldn't mind having some contingent dates available to us we'll keep you informed", "every chance i get i'll i'll send a note to dick letting him know what's going well and what's not going well i can't make any guarantees", "i really can't but we will try our best", "bob can you post meetings for next monday tuesday wednesday let's not do that i didn't agree to any of that", "sorry", "if nothing else and i know they won't agree to it", "it is a fall back position that potentially will allow the event to take place right", "it's a fallback but i don't know if it's possible", "it's showing that you're trying to work through this", "you know i think that we should make that kind of a motion anybody disagree with that i think i do for the reason if i had the option they don't want that option", "so forcing them something to do that they said three times that they don't wanna do", "i think we stand back and say we gave them the application contingent upon an insurance agreement that was worked out", "we feel that it's not worked out", "so at the end of this exercise they don't get the permit", "the permit has not physically been issued to them at this point", "so if they see that is the case they're still saying obviously we live in a real world", "if i had a guess the event's going to go forward and then we'll deal with it in the court", "but to force somebody that said they don't want to do it to hold their own to put money up when they said no", "i mean i look at the boston marathon that was always a peaceful thing and things change overnight", "so to ask a business to take fifty thousand liability times one hundred two hundred three hundred people that's kind of unreal also to selfinsure that number", "so we'll do our best the 2nd the 3rd the 1st", "if it doesn't work then the event has to be canceled because we have not come up with an agreeable indemnification clause that the town has said that's okay", "so i think there's more liability to say we're going to put it on their shoulders", "they're going to say no", "and then we're both dealing with an issue after the fact because they've already said no", "so we're going to give them a permit after the fact that they said no", "well said jim jenny how do you feel no i agree with jim", "lorraine you also yeah i think i'll let you know when i'm gonna post the meeting", "i'll talk to bob cause i'm not postin nothin tonight", "just for a point of reference", "nothing could be held on monday night anyway cause it would have to have been posted by this afternoon", "okay", "unless it's under provisions of emergency", "yeah but this would not be an emergency situation", "that'd be a public emergency", "so it'd be tuesday the tuesday would be the first possible tuesday and wednesday the tuesday i'm not inclined to do that at this point in time", "so you guys get together", "no contact with any board members other than through town counsel or town manager okay nobody", "i don't want anybody having any conversations with anybody but bob cutler and the attorneys to their attorneys", "all right is that clear anything you wanna add to that jim i would certainly defer to your lawyers on this but i don't know if that's legal to be perfectly frank", "dan's town", "well no i'm talking about the business", "you can talk to them", "you know we've had this discussion before", "nobody can talk about this about what we talked about tonight with the board about this", "i certainly won't", "all right everybody can make all the little phone calls", "they want to bob cutler town counsel and they will inform me and i can inform the board and we'll have another meeting", "all right all right is that okay that way it just keeps it from being a round robin", "so we're hold on so it's clear to me", "what what is the action that the board is taking tonight none", "none", "i think we're advising you based on the ten minute discussion you've had if there's a way to work it out we'll do our job and post it for tuesday", "as of now you're not post you're going to post a meeting as of tuesday", "tuesday wednesday and wednesday", "it's not going to be friday", "yeah", "if you would just post it for the those days you don't have to hold it", "post it for tuesday wednesday and friday", "we're just posting a meeting for those days", "you do have the issue of that's all right but you've got a condition that expires on june thirty", "it expires and it's either you're gonna renew it or not", "it expires sunday night huh i'm sorry", "sunday night so the product's expired", "expired", "that's all there is to it", "so what happens if that happens can you then we they can always vote every issue", "don't we have to have a public hearing bob well you would have", "that's a whole process", "a public hearing okay but is it are you posting a hearing for a meeting the other thing we do", "we do have a vote continuing those things to july 3rd", "okay but i haven't included the condition that he wants it cause it sounds to me like the board is not behind it", "so we've drafted a motion that basically puts over continues the approval until i say not later than july 3rd but it may be later than july 3rd", "i could say july 5th okay knowing that you're going to meet on the 3rd", "it's not late the 3rd is not later than the 5th", "and i anticipated a meeting on the 5th no but you can still have a meeting on the 3rd", "no", "the 2nd or the 3rd i'm not agreeing to the 5th", "i think what he's saying is extend the conditions the permit expires", "the 3rd the 3rd so make the motion to extend it to 3rd midnight the 3rd", "that way we have monday tuesday i thought we said the 3rd through the 5th", "we did originally say that but that doesn't mean that you have to have a meeting on the 5th you can have the meeting on the 3rd but just in case by some folks say everything's all worked out but logistically you can't get some final detail you're okay with or any other person's okay with just to leave it in place so it's not expired", "doesn't mean the meeting has to happen on the 5th", "that does seem reasonable dick are you saying that the license expires on the 30th it's the 30th", "the conditions of approval have a dead you have a deadline because it didn't make sense", "so i'm extending those", "it expires and the event is on the 6th so yeah okay", "so we're extending those to not later than the 5th but my my associate's absolutely right it doesn't mean you have to meet on the 5th it gives us to that day yes", "there won't be a quorum on the 5th", "and this is not for a meeting on the 5th", "this is for the conditions extending the conditions", "right", "did you make them back 3rd at midnight right effectively it's the 3rd it's a placeholder", "dick what's the relevance of stating the kenny chesney taylor swift concerts and these dates beyond the 3rd i'm sorry", "what's the relevance of stating theseoh they just i'm just identifying cause they'll all expire on the 30th they all expire yeah", "okay i'll make a motion to modify the previous votes taken by the board of selectmen approving the applications for the following concerts at gillette stadium", "kenny chesney august 23rd and 24th two thousand and thirteen", "taylor swift july 26th and twenty seven two thousand and thirteen and bon jovi july 20th two thousand and thirteen", "and for soccer events by extending the second condition of such improvements regarding attaining liability insurance with such events insuring both the applicant and the town", "the applicant shall provide insurance not later than july 5th two thousand and thirteen in a form satisfactory to this board", "all remaining conditions of set application approvals remain in full force and effect", "motion's made is there a second second any more discussion alls in favor aye alls opposed motion to adjourn", "so moved all in favor", "okay"], "name": ["20130627BOS/20130627BOS/2013_06_27BOS_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "20130627BOS/20130627BOS/2013_06_27BOS_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "20130627BOS/20130627BOS/2013_06_27BOS_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "20130627BOS/20130627BOS/2013_06_27BOS_DOT_flac_00003.flac", 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"seven hundred and five pm thank you lisa", "i'm joined by vice chair sami baghdady selectman jim williams town administrator david kale assistant town administrator phyllis marshall and a recorder valerio", "is that a better name for you recorded like that i've been struggling in terms of what i should use there", "records recorder or recorder of the minutes", "most important person in the room", "exactly okay", "as well as franklin tucker from belmontonian and we have other representers here as well so we have a fairly light agenda this evening", "we have an update from the opeb other postemployment benefits committee looking forward to that and they're all here this evening", "we're going to vote to open and close the annual town meeting warrant", "we have some one day liquor licenses to approve", "is becca pizzi coming in or just the members of the boosters to authorize the", "i believe we will have a representative", "put her up thank you", "i believe they've been notified they plan on sending a representative", "okay cool", "we have some committee appointment discussions", "we'll probably have some discussion on the town administrator's report on the home rule petition license transfer that they were all anxious to hear about that david and some liaison reports both on the community path implementation committee which do a lot of work", "do you have the meetings david that they posted i forgot to bring those", "we can get them", "can we get those fellows so i can announce those under that section there", "capital budget major building projects what we're working on there", "jim and i both attended i don't know if you were able to attend cme the mastering association events on friday", "jim was there friday and saturday", "we can do it on the community announcements", "so we will just comment briefly about that and that's it", "so i'll do community announcements first and then we'll see if there's any questions from town residents", "i don't see many in the audience here", "other than the topics discussed so community announcements i'll begin with the winter weather information it looks kinda nasty out there tonight", "so for this is on our website david yes it is", "the winter weather resources visit wwwbelmontmassgovsnow", "okay that makes sense to follow official social media accounts on social dash media and there's a snow emergency hotline six billion one hundred and seventy nine million nine hundred and thirty two thousand six hundred and ninety eight", "we've only had one storm", "hopefully that's the first and only right david as i remind everybody this is good if click on behind the link there's information how to contact the town and how to get notifications", "okay great", "if we have to do a snow emergency parking ban and it's useful information", "and we have a very good good reverse nine hundred and eleven right that in terms of when this ever happen there's a parking lot", "and the copy of this residential and commercial snow removal bylaws attached also", "okay", "nomination papers are available for annual town election which is scheduled for april 4th two thousand and seventeen", "they've been available since december 9th two thousand and sixteen and they are due back to the town clerk for certification by february 14th two thousand and seventeen at five hundred pm", "for those of you that are interested in writing for annual election renew your pet license okay make sure your pet license is renewed and to contact the town clerk's office with any questions for pet license renewal annual renewal", "so those of you that need to do that please contact the town administrator's office", "i think i announced this the last time david this is a terrific event being sponsored by the belmont vision twenty one implementation committee talk of the town sharing the passion of notable belmont residents to be scheduled it's scheduled for march 21st two thousand and seventeen from seven hundred to nine hundred pm in the chenery middle school auditorium", "clayton m christensen will be there lisa ellie alfie kohn and rupal patel and this could be found on our website as well and the host is jane clayson jane clayson johnson", "it's a great event and hopefully we'll be able to attend", "i already announced our local election polls open from seven hundred to eight hundred pm and tomorrow evening january 21st 24th excuse me i'm sorry at the beech street center located two hundred and sixty six beech street from six hundred and thirty to eight hundred and thirty pm", "toll brothers will be are they presenting their remedial action yeah i hope its called a remedial action plan", "there's actually two there's two things there's a public information plan and then there's a remedial action plan", "measure plan that's what r a m stands for i think although they've said it's remedial action plan but it's one and the same correct what's being presented tomorrow night", "basically there as the notice says their schedule their plan of attack with regard to dealing with the required dep notifications the twenty day public commenting period discussing what their remediation plan will be which will then allow folks to make comments to their licensed site professional in the twenty day commenting period", "right okay", "so that would be", "we discussed this on the town administrators report in terms of some thinking that we start to had on whether we need to consider a peer review this is just announcements we could do it under that of their ram plan and may provide comments during that twenty day comment period", "so we can discuss that", "so those of you that are interested and i'm sure it will be packed from six hundred and thirty to eight hundred pm tomorrow night i plan to attend myself and then finally with mixed emotions and i think the word's already out david hit the newspaper i didn't read the articles yet", "our town administrator david kale has submitted a resignation from the position of town administrator which is effective march 13th two thousand and seventeen and david can you describe the position sounds like a wonderful opportunity for you that you'll be taking in cambridge", "yeah", "this is an unanticipated but unique opportunity and i've been asked to join the city manager's leadership team as the assistant city manager for fiscal affairs", "wonderful going back home", "so i wanna thank david i mean we'll have plenty more to say about this but david's been with us since august two two thousand and twelve", "ralph was part of the board when we went to a extensive search and decided on david kale and david you've been an outstanding town administrator and you've really brought professionalism integrity and you've updated our team as well to the town administrator position and the budget process and all of that good stuff as well", "i think we'll have a lot more to say but i'm gonna miss you desperately and wanna congratulate you on this new position cause it sounds wonderful for you", "so i think colleagues what i'd like to suggest as part of this announcement is david and i have been already started our discussions about a transition plan and having gone through this once before with my colleague ralph jones and angelo firenze was on the board as well", "we had established the search committee", "we made some decisions around interim appointments", "so if it's okay with both of you i'd like to suggest that perhaps i lay out a plan for that by the next meeting to talk about whether that is consistent with what you're thinking about the matter", "but david congratulations again thank you", "you've worked tirelessly for the four and a half years with us and wish you could stay longer but completely understand you're accepting this new role", "i guess i'll say a few things if i may just because as march 13th gets close you really wouldn't wanna you won't wanna have to listen to me", "in your office by the way", "that may be true", "i would just say this is a bittersweet decision and that i would like to thank the board of selectmen both past and present members for the wonderful opportunity to be belmont's town administrator and for the support that you've all provided to me and to our team and it's greatly appreciated and i will always be grateful for the positive professional personal experiences that i've enjoyed during my tenure", "i would also like to say that part of that enjoyment is been able to work with a talented and dedicated and hardworking group of department heads employees elected officials and the various committees in town and we've achieved a lot collaboratively and we've done that within a limited framework of financial resources", "i think the town has a lot to be proud of", "i would be remiss if i did not thank the town administrator's staff for their hard work and their support and their teamwork", "they with our department heads and our employees are an extraordinary group of people and i will miss interacting with them on a daily basis and as i've said many times our department heads and our employees are the town's biggest assets and we should never forget that because they really are a bunch of dedicated and hardworking individuals that we should appreciate", "so again thank you for the opportunity", "i'm not quite going yet but thank you for the opportunity to wish everybody", "thank you and as i said it's a bittersweet decision but i really enjoy the town of belmont and working for it and i'm gonna miss it so thank you", "gonna miss you", "thank you just to work along david in the financial task force i mean it was incredible", "so we never would've made it through without you and i know i would've made it through as chair on the task force", "the amount of time and effort you put into that and how you structured it and the report that was written was just outstanding work", "so thank you", "i will have many more opportunities to thank david for his service at the town but we will continue to do business and we'll have to decide an approach that works for this community in terms of identifying a replacement yeah", "okay so the first order of business are there any questions from town residents in the meantime oh i'm sorry jim we wanted to do in the community announcements its just a little bit on the mma meeting right i attended the mma i only attended on saturdays", "the selectman association breakout jim was there as well", "a lot of buzz and discussion around school funding", "oh what was your table school funding it was school funding yeah so was mine", "but surprising not surprising but the colleagues at the table from other selectmen from other communities were western part of the state and their budgets were a lot smaller than ours and they're dealing with issues that are a lot different than ours", "so it's interesting to see this sort of dichotomy and sort of this issues that they wrestle with", "so we talked about that and then i was able to talk to go to the annual meeting in which senator elizabeth warren senator ed markey and governor charlie baker spoke and they were all three of them were phenomenal in terms of their speeches and outline and particular governor baker outlined his commitment as evidenced by some of the work he's currently done with the missile monetization bill and sort of their approach in terms of appointment or their administration of local officials how they're committed which was great to hear about continuing to work with the local communities", "they've announced and it actually hit the globe and increase david i think it was three level funding or at least it increase whatever the increase in tax receipts were gonna be", "the increase in unrestricted government aid was going to mirror that and there was also a announcement by the governor that he was going to his administration was going to increase chapter seventy eight", "although there have been some comments about wasn't enough giving an increase by twenty per student and more to come on that", "so jim why don't you if you have anything to share from the meetings", "well i did go friday as well i attended the department of revenue the budgetary discussion", "i also attended housing on saturday", "i also went to the selectman's association and attended the general assembly", "i thought governor baker's remarks about the number of people having experiences selectmen in the government is interesting", "i thought that was very interesting as well", "yeah because it really does make a difference that it's not at all what you expect until you actually do it and i believe the increase of local aid he mentioned thirty nine", "he did i think yeah i think he did say that unrestricted government and fiscal aid", "but the chapter seventy maybe a little bit more than that children of certain right right yeah", "so that was a great conference and i was happy to be able to go", "yeah it's a great event", "i think we should continue to be active in it and you do get a lot of information and idea here and there", "nothing but a proponent for local governments so we certainly support their association", "okay", "any questions from town residents none so we have the opeb other postemployment benefits committee that's what that's this evening to present their either interim report or final report or at least they have comments on what work they're doing and ralph you're the chair you wanna join us and perhaps other members as well and we can join us you're all welcome to join", "introduce yourselves put the mics on and we appreciate you coming", "we've been waiting for", "seven o'clock we're just going to before you're not sure", "so the let me just mention again we established this group in february of last year", "well you got an interim report to us february of last year right february 26th to think about the purpose and duties under the direction of board of selectmen this temporary it's temporary working group will evaluate and make recommendations on the town of belmont's opeb strategy", "what we employed to date what more we can do members will be asked to evaluate the current policy and to consider whether it is prudent to adopt alternative operating funding alternatives for the town's unfunded opeb liability", "he came and met with us almost a year ago and you're back in front of us again", "so ralph i'll turn it to you to introduce yourself and all members can do that as well thank you i'm ralph jones i'm chair of the committee", "i think you've met everyone here at the last meeting", "we did except for timothy larman who has joined us", "and to the team thank you", "one of my announcements is that liz allison who had held that position resigned because of the workload of the planning board and she was kind enough to recommend a replacement who was very qualified as you've seen in his resume and we're glad to have him", "quite impressive tim", "thank you", "i also understand in terms of announcements that the selectmen have been briefed by the hr director on december 2nd about egg whip the acronym for employee group waiver plan", "we have been yes", "and i think that's an important development because of the estimate that it may very well eliminate thirteen billion of our assumed obligation for opeb", "in terms of our report i think we've had a real breakthrough and let me just explain what happened", "at our last meeting we reported that we were working with the town administrator and the hr director to get more detailed information on the actual cost of healthcare for retirees in belmont", "that was basically part of our analysis", "yep", "the costs get the real cost and then work from there", "geoff lubien", "geoff took the burden i think this summer of really working on that task and he got some good data although it was not going far back and it could not be released down to the individual level", "it had to be given to us in terms of subgroups of various types", "last week geoff and i met with representatives from the wayland opeb committee and whose work we shared with you last year", "chris doyle had made contact and we just hadn't ever gone out and sat down and talk with them directly and we were rather astounded to learn that the wayland committee had actually contracted out the data collection task that geoff had been working on to their actuary", "we thought they had done it all by themselves but in fact they had asked their actuary to do and as geoff said he almost cried when he heard that because he'd been working alone by himself and in fact it looks as if our actuary could very well get the information we need to model real cost", "most important in terms of using the actuary was that the wayland committee could get the results of employee specific information because the actuary was hipaa certified", "none of us are hipaa certified and therefore the town administrator and the hr director in the town could only give us aggregated data", "but using a hippa certified actuary we can get much more granular data and therefore have a much more robust picture of what our costs are", "i have shared the rfq that the town of wayland used with both the town admin with the town administrator and i wanna give copies of it to you because what i am proposing tonight", "was it included it in our time no maybe not", "no i'm just bringing it to you tonight", "you don't need to read it all right now", "but i think what you'll find is that i think this is the sort of rfq we should use when we hire our actuary for the fy sixteen biennial report on opeb obligations", "this basically ask the actuary to do two things", "the first is do the standard gasb forty five report using all of the assumptions that are imposed by gasb and if you heard in our previous reports they don't really very well reflect what's actually going on in the town", "the second part of the rfq says do that same report but this time use our data on our health costs our assumptions about experience with healthcare our assumptions about future trends and so they got a second and much more town specific and much more realistic picture of what their opeb obligations are and as we heard last year there were about thirty lower than what the gasb forty five", "there's an actual data versus estimate", "yeah exactly", "so what we'd like to do and what we we met last week we'd like to ask that the town follow the basic format of the rfq used by wayland and also if possible perhaps add a few additional tasks not unlike the sort of tasks you give to seagull on the plan", "for example there are some possible modifications to our health our health plan", "one that we heard from wayland was that as you know belmont just has a family plan and an individual plan those are the two options", "a lot of our corporations that we work for have family plans individual plans and plans for couples and since a lot of people are simply couples and have no children you can get a reduced cost and they don't have to have a family plan so it's a cost saving option and wayland even took it one step further and started giving couples two individual plans which apparently even had a lower cost", "so something like that we might wanna try out and see if it has any any benefits for our health costs", "obviously the rfq has to be developed by the official party here in the town who has the authority to do a procurement", "we understand that all that we're requesting is the opportunity to work with that person and help shape that rfq help shape the scope of work and evaluation criteria", "this breakthrough i think is very important", "this means that geoff can stop working on those data trying to interpolate and make assumptions about how all of these groups fit together and instead we can get a very robust actuarial report that we can then use as a model and then going forward use as a basis for estimating what our opeb policies ought to be", "any comments from other members maybe the only rfq", "chris if you could just get closer to the mic and say who you are", "oh sure", "chris doyle member of the committee maybe the only other thing maybe you were gonna get there was i think you were gonna ask if someone from the committee or you or someone could be on the participate in the review of the i don't know if that's appropriate town policy but the review of the rfq", "of the response", "no i think that's fine", "i mean certainly that would be okay with me plus it's okay ralph", "one final thing i think what our committee did at the end of our meeting and a long discussion was realized that this is going to be a longterm process of evaluation", "every two years we're gonna get our new report hopefully with new town specific information and we're gonna have to look again at what our options are and what our funding procedures should be", "so this is probably going to be an ongoing process for a couple of decades until the pension plan is fully funded", "so ralph if i may", "any other comments from committee members okay right geoff", "hi geoff lubien member of the committee", "the only other thing just to highlight is that wayland really partnered with the actuary that they hired to do a more consultative relationship after these two reports are generated to look at policy options to look at changes and things like that that's hilarious", "and so i think that's helpful given the fact that this is something's evolve and live for years to come", "i like that i like that a lot", "i think we've done a lot to address this issue by getting a professional point of view in terms of other matters that we can do and other strategy", "i think what you're suggesting here is that the rfq can be broader than just providing us a report on our unfunded liability and what the assumptions that would be based on actual data", "but also in addition to that looking at our funding strategy looking at other things that we can do to sort of impact this estimated liability in the future that's what the wayland rfq did and that's what their actuary for them", "they actually got more than they initially asked for in their rfq", "once they had hired the person and found out that that particular party was quite willing to give them a back and forth information on ideas advice suggestions and so they found it very helpful", "this is forty five the reports sent from odyssey that's in our binders dated december fourteen", "is that in that was the firm selected yeah", "that was the firm selective but that's the one in which it has a breakdown on actual costs yeah", "and some other discussions", "okay", "you'll see two reports both looking very similar but one uses the gasb and the other uses okay all right", "i really liked the idea a lot", "so when are we scheduled to out for our queue we were actually", "i looked at the list so one is of course sms which we use right kms kms excuse me", "seagulls involved there are notes something that jim had suggested before me", "the retirement board actually", "okay", "so we would go for request for proposal", "we've got one drafted", "we were anticipating some suggestions from the opeb working group that we can incorporate into the rfp", "we also don't forget the gasb regulations are changing with regard to the fiscal eighteen audit", "so those have to be incorporated because that will be a reporting requirement that needs to be reflected", "frankly probably in our seventeen and eighteen because most people have said you should just do it once and not have a split gasb forty five and the new gasb which for the moment i've forgotten the number seventy five", "seventy five", "so basically do both at the same time so that you have it reflect in seventeen eighteen i think has been generally the advice that we receive", "is report as of january 1st of this year from say fiscal sixteen as of the fiscal year i think so it's seven thousand one hundred and sixteen", "seven thousand one hundred and sixteen", "so but we haven't yet proceeded kms is not doing that for us", "we were waiting to issue the rfp and we've started to collect the directory data to provide to them", "and when would they have once we've decided on the firm when would they have the report for us", "its actually pretty perfunctory basis with these components that may add some time but generally we've already drafted an rfp", "we started working on directory data to provide to the actual firm", "but we can expanded it to include some of the points that you made geoff and ralph as well that consultant with nature of other than just sort of calculating a number for us and maybe a more refined by some consultant we appreciate the willingness of the town administrator and the hr director to have us help him about this idea", "if i may yeah of course", "i think it's a great idea", "i think it's a great approach", "i think this is something that can carry us forward to the future i'd also like to give selectman jim williams credit because i think this is what he's been asking for all along is this type of analysis and data from a professional consultant as a matter of fact do you have any comments jim well", "thank you sami for that", "it's just one of the things i've been concerned about", "ralph graciously invited me to thursday night's meeting when all of this was discussed", "so i strongly support this idea and it's great i don't know what enabling motion we need to take but i'd like to see us do that with the chairman tonight", "absolutely jim i support that completely", "i think that's a wonderful idea and i think we should have members of the opeb study group review the proposal work in conjunction with the town administrator's office and constructing it", "i will have a chance to read this as well i'm assuming ralph but and these consulting", "i think we always say we've done as much as we can", "i think we have but we don't know right", "i mean there's more that we can think about from a funding point of view", "maybe other strategies that we can employ as we approach our collective bargaining season as well", "in terms of impacting future costs i mean one of the things that you and i did as member of the boards when we had the opportunity to adjust plan design had a dramatic impact on the future estimate liability and i know some of this is collectively bargained", "the other point jim i think it was raised at the meeting now that i'm remembering mma meeting", "i think some of them some raised opeb and then one of the members of the board", "i raised opeb at the mma i was actually very surprised", "i was very surprised", "we were talking about school funding and jim raised opeb", "do that as it may", "somehow i raised opeb in this one", "but i thought it was a great question because i think what came out of that is i forget who the representative was on the panel and we talked about in perhaps this can be what would be helpful from us is legislatively we need some support on this and i know that senator brownsberger and representative rogers are aware of that and i've read that opeb state opeb study taskforce report and a lot of things that we can do", "it would be helpful maybe with the consultant or your input as well collectively", "what more can we do to or legislators can do and i'm sure will's very much familiar with this stuff particularly", "to encourage them to look at these issues and help provide legislative relief no different than they did", "i forget which year it was", "was it two thousand and twelve or i can't remember ralph", "we had the plan designed that was lobbied heavily by mma that resulted in whatever multimillions of savings", "generally the people we've talked to don't think there'll be any immediate action by the legislature", "the only thing that might trigger all of this is when the fy eighteen numbers start coming out because i think they're gonna be very interesting", "they're gonna be very large", "eighteen extra burrow numbers you mean yeah good", "and there's also gonna be reduced discount rate", "yeah", "which i think they'll need to do anyway", "there could be some sharp", "our discount rate is four and a half", "so it's not gonna be", "are there discount rates we use for opeb", "yeah", "that was because of floyd", "but wayland still uses seven", "there're gonna be some towns that are gonna be", "you can use a higher discount rate but you have to have cash in the fund which we only have minimum", "fully fund the ark in order to use the higher discount rate", "right which frankly is just use a high discount rate and really underestimate your future like you're not gonna get that kinda return on assets typically", "well it depends that depends", "if you know write it down", "i love this idea and thank you", "i'm glad that you supported as well so i fully support", "i think we've heard for all three of us", "moving forward with this type of an rfp incorporating some of the things you just discussed", "i mean i know you consulted the aspects about getting the actual data moving forward as quickly as possible", "do i get to make the motion yeah jim and i wonder the other point i wanna make is i'm fine with the study committee plus jim my colleague jim williams helping to identify along with david and the town administrator's office who we send the rfp to", "would geoff work on it then yes", "he's had his hands around the data more than anyone else", "well geoff thanks for the time you've spent no problem", "i'm sorry that you had to spend that time", "i'm sure that will help inform", "yeah i don't think its wasted at all", "no no i think it'll help the actuary", "no i think it will all right so mr williams", "i make a motion that we accept the recommendation of the opeb committee that we employ or issue an rfq to investigate or help me out david", "rfp i think", "to basically go out to", "issue an rfp issue an rfp", "this is called an rfq but", "we use our", "either one of em", "basically they issue an rfp so we can do our next biennial opeb actuarial study dated seven hundred and twelve thousand and sixteen", "incorporating the", "the recommendations of the opep working committee", "okay very helpful", "did you get that lisa just what was the date i didn't get the date", "seven july sixteen seven july two thousand and sixteen", "okay okay", "how much did you say what was", "we get the vote do you have a second in this", "second all in favor aye", "how much you say that once wayland did this analysis that their estimated future estimated liability with town are", "twenty percent", "twenty percent right off the bat", "but i think its been adjusted", "they've also implemented cost reductions that have been pretty significant", "yeah", "they did yes", "they were not at the fifty fifty split for employees they went to that", "they were not as aggressive as we were", "as we do this will they look at because i think that we've employed a lot of the sort of the tactics that have been suggested to manage our liability", "will they look at that as well to ensure that we haven't missed anything i think we can include that", "that would be cool", "yes", "i think we've covered everything but you just don't know right we've reach out to a lot of towns but a good consulting actuary who's been doing thirty or forty of these may have something we haven't thought about", "well i wanna thank my colleagues selectman williams for pushing this issue forward as he has for the past several months and i think we're ended up in a good spot", "we agree and i think that we would never have fully investigated this issue i don't think without this committee we wouldn't have really looked into this issue and begun to understand as well as we now do without that motion so good work", "yeah plus the warrant committee", "i was a town meeting member when i made the motion", "i remember that and i remember the warrant committee supported that as well so thank you", "well thank you committee for your time and efforts and i guess we'll move forward expeditiously on this david", "great great", "great okay have a good evening", "thank you ralph thank you all", "appreciate you all see you all", "thanks for the time", "that's great", "wonderful", "what are you looking at me like that for i'm appreciative of it", "when you play golf you don't celebrate your good shots and you don't get down over your bad shots you just steady as you go", "yeah exactly", "so i think this is okay", "i mean if you're yeah we don't", "as baker said if you're an elected public official we're all in this together", "we can appreciate that comment of course absolutely", "but thank you for", "yeah no you're right", "thank you for thanking you", "david did we agree to move forward like we did right what we're doing is because some of the calculations were a little bit dated", "we've asked harvard pilgrim to recalculate the anticipated costs and savings", "so once that analysis is complete we'll provide you a recommendation to allow us to implement", "did anyone approve to move forward with this", "you've allowed you've endorsed us to move forward which we are doing update our information we'll give you an implementation date which i think fills we decided should be 7th june i think july one of eighteen", "so we will be doing that shortly so that we can as we noted it's the implementation and the communication and the ability to answer questions with retirees with regard to their prescription drugs that's gonna require hr to spend a lot of time so we wanna do it right", "so and we also wanna make sure we implement it so we maximize our savings to both the retirees and to the town", "so i think july one is when we decided to push it out to", "what can you say about gasb seventy five are we gonna tell craig to do something about that in connection with the two thousand and seventeen financials yes yes", "and does that put the entire one hundred and seventy one million on the balance sheet do you know i believe it puts what your accrued liability is on the balance sheet", "just the accrued liability", "so cause we have ninety three and a half million on the balance sheet now and we're accruing eleven million a year", "so is it would it be different than that though i will tell you the calculation and the methodology will change with gasb seventy five in terms of how they report it so it will be different", "so we're not gonna see that in the two thousand and sixteen probably will have seen in the june 30th two thousand and sixteen and there is something in the two thousand and sixteen management analysis oh no in the footnotes that describes the gasb changes", "so that's disclosed and then also i was wondering do you feel that you have a good understanding of the healthcare plan itself as it is or can we ask jessica to give us a quick overview of what's available i think that helps", "and who pays what would that be something that we could hear maybe at the next meeting cause if you're a new employee you come and they say okay here's your deal", "i just liked to i mean wouldn't it make sense to remind us ourselves of that yeah that's fine", "yeah yeah", "yeah that makes sense", "okay david next meeting", "perhaps part of that i mean would jessica be in a position to give us an update on any sort of collective bargaining matters", "she can", "okay", "if we're gonna talk about that david i did talk to you about one item last week", "which we should not disclose once we're in executive session", "okay so but you've spoken to", "yes we have", "yep okay all right", "all right", "okay anything further on this okay great", "let's celebrate your bad good shots or get down in your bad shots", "i do both actually", "yeah that was the golf coach", "cause that's a good recommendation and then we'll celebrate my good shots and get down to my bad shots constantly", "you'd be mindful like becca is when she runs", "she's a pro so anyway we're thrilled that she's joining us this evening", "so i would ask becca pizzi and curtis cole joined us on", "becca i know how busy schedule is appreciate it it's an honor to have you here tonight", "thanks for having me", "hi curtis hi becca", "hi how are you good to see you", "so we're here to hear more about the second annual correct becca pizzi family fund run to be held on april 30th two thousand and seventeen to allow you", "introduce yourself for the viewing audience", "we know in fact a lot of people know you curtis as well", "you start and talk about this event", "yeah so i was", "i'm becca pizzi from belmont and we had this first event last year and had so much fun and the proceeds went to the foundation", "wonderful", "belmont high school and it was just so great giving those out and felt like it was a great day for the community and everybody came together and it was a really fun day and very well organized", "i think we were pretty happy with how smoothly", "how much was raised we raised we made a lot", "introduce yourself", "curtis cole with belmont boosters", "yeah", "last year the net was seven thousand", "wonderful that's terrific", "of which one thousand went into scholarships for two student athletes", "at the high school they were awarded senior day with the balance of the scholarships and then the other proceeds went into the booster fund which funds grants", "the plan is this year is kinda the same formula for any of the net proceeds", "so it's great essentially as becca really wants and we're kinda just following her lead is that all the funds that basically go back into the athletic program at the high school", "okay that's wonderful that's terrific", "so this event is being held on april 30th", "i think he had good weather i don't remember it wasn't able to attend but", "i ran it last year", "thank you for coming", "i have done the brendan grant", "so it's the same route right same route are there routes for like the over sixty crowd kim and i did the over sixty", "we have to take a uber back", "we did the over sixty for the glen shockley memorial one yeah exactly", "you let me win", "yeah jim won by a nose", "i came in second times", "there's only two entrance in which jim came first and i came in second", "he won the year before but there's only one entry", "and the year before that", "i know the secret its uber", "i have done this this route", "it's not an easy road for those of us that don't run as often as you do becca of course", "yeah yeah its not", "no but there's water along the way", "i did run a number of times with my son", "kids raced too which is a mile around the track", "oh that's wonderful", "that's a lot of fun and they all get metals", "so what are you doing these days if we don't mind you asking no", "so still", "are you still marathoning yeah running marathons", "have you done any since last time we saw you april was the last bit in february i'm going to new orleans and texas to run those two marathons wonderful", "and i'm running ten marathons in two thousand this year", "ten ten", "just checking them out and doing the fifty states", "god bless you", "i've teamed up with a john hancock who will be one of our biggest sponsors most likely", "oh great", "and doing a lot of motivational speaking", "that's great", "it's just been so much fun", "so i still own my daycare and i still manage moozy's", "so everything's kinda like a puzzle", "oh you're still doing it yeah", "on your downtime right down time yeah", "so i'm assuming that you spend time within our schools as well i do", "i was just coming from pto and wellington", "is there more than we can do besides approving this fund run to support some of your efforts in town", "yeah", "i mean you need to let us know that it's more than we can do as a board to support efforts and inspirational ten marathons it's just a phenomenal almost one a month is incredible", "it's so fun traveling the world doing what i love and then bringing back and showing my daughter", "my daughter and i are going to disney this weekend", "well good", "that's good for her so she's kinda content", "well congratulations and thanks so much for continuing to inspire all of us", "thanks for your support", "and the things that you do", "so we appreciate that", "so i look forward to seeing you on the 30th of april right right jim yeah i see the chenery runners", "did you start that the cross country chenery", "we do a kids run every friday at seven hundred and thirty in the morning", "so yeah so that's fun", "i'm not attending that one", "but you would not believe the kids that come out", "so that's what i started and then i started the belmont track team that meets on tuesday mornings", "oh great", "so that's a wide variety group of people from belmont", "i used to run track at my school", "i love it", "yeah i love it", "how long do they run it seven hundred and thirty at the middle school", "so they do two times around the reservoir", "oh great", "yeah and then they'll all come to the race", "cause of the known benefits", "yeah", "when you do ten marathons i mean i'm assuming i mean you still have to train like you do because you just trained", "i'm constantly training", "so it's easier for me to just be training all the time", "last year i thought it would be really special just to do the world marathon challenge in boston and nothing else but now i feel like i'm ready to race again", "okay", "the last time we approved a run the last question we asked was how many people they expected and they said fifteen thousand", "that was at marathon", "we went at the train crossing", "oh yeah", "cause they couldn't turn left so they had to turn right", "jim it wasn't fifteen thousand", "yes it was", "it was five thousand six hundred people", "oh okay did i say fifteen thousand you did five thousand six hundred was still a lot", "how many people will be running we pulled it together in how long so last year it was just this last minute", "oh yeah sure", "it was a great idea", "you may have three four hundred people right yeah like five weeks to pull it off", "one hundred and forty adult runners in forty five well okay", "you may get a sense", "yeah", "i'd like to double it", "yeah sure", "well you'll have two more members of the board that will be there", "you can walk you don't have to run it", "but you can walk it yeah you can walk quickly", "i'm gonna suggest that you create an over sixty category for these two people yeah yeah you guys are right", "give us like an hour headstart", "the race begins on sunday but you guy's start on saturday", "we won't tell anyone that's perfect", "oh boy that hurts", "oh lord i know i've got to shape but yes sir", "would say is last year the town in your office was unbelievable in helping us pull this together because we had a short period of time", "we had people doing it for the first time and it came together", "yeah our town departments they're always terrific in helping", "well this is a wonderful", "fire it was great", "well thank you for saying that", "we appreciate that", "that's a wonderful event and its a great cause and supports becca pizzi's ongoing inspirations and belmont athletics yeah", "belmont athletics", "so with that gentlemen do i have a motion to approve the request from belmont boosters to hold a second annual becca pizzi family fund run on sunday april 30th two thousand and seventeen at nine hundred am", "sami since you ran you should make the motion", "okay so moved", "second all in favor", "aye thank you", "great to see you again", "thank you for your support", "thank you so much", "thanks good to see you", "nice to see you", "thank you thank you", "good to see you", "thanks take care", "see you on the 30th", "all the best becca thanks", "becca nice to meet you", "thank you so much", "absolutely", "start on saturday finish on sunday okay", "take care", "all right jim you better start training", "okay", "we have to go back up the agenda to vote open and close the annual town meeting warrant", "open the warrant on monday february 6th two thousand and seventeen at nine hundred am to close the warrant on monday march 6th two thousand and seventeen at three hundred pm", "this is only the annual town meeting david correct is this mmhm yeah", "just include the meetings in may for those yes", "does not include the financial meeting or that's part of the the warrant", "i'm sorry", "go ahead", "the warrant articles will be submitted during this timeframe", "okay", "and then the schedule after the warrant closes on the 6th of march just to sort of highlight", "you've included the schedule in our account in our book here i have yes", "while the warrant is open the draft article language from departments should be submitted to the bylaw review committee the planning board the capital budget committee and the warrant committee around the 17th of february", "the warrant closes for later and your notice explains that warrant articles proposed by citizen petition must be received by the town clerk no later than march 6th that those are required", "so we'll allow that information be posted on our website yes", "so folks are aware that they have the citizens petition that they submit it by march 6th", "right", "this is for all nonfinancial articles", "this does not include the financial articles correct it will include a draft of financial articles as subject to revision as we finalize them", "so the financials as you know are usually taken up in the june town meeting but the warrant will include general information", "so no amendments or anything else can be done after the 6th of march no the amendments are scheduled are in the schedule and the amendments are after the warranty is voted", "well this is placeholder for articles", "this is not right", "per se the final articles", "exactly", "that means reviewed by town meeting", "right so the draft articles will be submitted to town council for them to review if they need to not citizen petition one and then they will be your schedule to vote the articles that will be on the final warrant will be april 3rd", "our work to include the final articles in the warrant will be april 3rd", "so you'll receive a draft of the articles in late march i thought we changed that date isn't that a monday", "april 3rd april 3rd", "april 4th is the election", "right okay that's right", "so you will receive a draft of the articles shortly after march 20th", "this is just to vote to include not to vote on them", "right okay", "you will take positions after you both final okay that's fine warrant article", "alright", "so when do the citizen petition close down the same date as the warrant", "the period for the warrant articles to be submitted is february 6th to march 6th", "so after march 6th there can be no that's the deadline yes", "okay", "there can be no articles after that", "but the schedule outlines when amendments can be submitted", "that's amendments to the articles", "right right and league of women voters is scheduled for march 23rd", "okay", "any other questions gentlemen for the motion to open and close the annual town meeting warrant on monday february 6th two thousand and seventeen at nine hundred am to close the warrant on monday march 6th two thousand and seventeen at three hundred pm", "so moved", "second all in favor", "aye", "okay we have two", "the league of women voters is the 24th of april i'm sorry", "we have two one day liquor licenses", "the first is from wait", "what do you need to vote this or you need to sign it", "so we can do that at the end of the meeting", "do it at the end of the meeting", "okay", "we have a one day liquor license application from the patrons of the belmont performing arts company to serve wine and malt at the trivia night fundraising event held on february 10th two thousand and seventeen at the beech street center from six hundred and thirty pm to nine hundred and thirty pm", "they're reviewed by all town departments", "there were no concerns so i have a motion to approve", "so moved", "second all in favor", "aye", "the second liquor license is a one day liquor license application from paulette black of the beth el temple center requesting to serve all alcohol at their gala event on april 1st two thousand and seventeen from six hundred pm to one thousand one hundred pm at the beth el temple center", "they're reviewed by all town and relevant departments and they have no concerns so i have a motion to approve", "so moved", "second all in favor", "aye", "okay committee appointments mbta advisory board david", "so mr chair is the chair", "you're appointed to be the primary contact for the mbta advisory board meetings but we have typically appointed an alternate in case your schedule doesn't allow you to attend", "we did appoint glen castro to do that but we feel that now that we have matthew haskell joining the team in our office that this would be a good opportunity of him to be the alternative instead of glen especially during budget time and during this time of transition", "i think matthew was looking forward to this and we'll be able to receive and communicate all information received", "does it have to be the chair i believe statutorily i can't say they know that for a fact", "i don't know jim whether you wanna serve in this capacity because i haven't been able to attend any of these meetings and i know matt will attend but perhaps more active involvement from the board of selectmen might be helpful it's up to you", "i mean i don't care", "i'd like to do it", "yeah would you mind no", "i've been i didn't think about this until just very this very moment", "so i think two motions one is to do i just designate do i appoint to i think you either can designate or you can also", "all right so i designated selectmen jim williams participate on the mbta advisory board in lieu of my participation as chair and do i have a motion to appoint matthew haskell administrative assistant town administrator's office to serve as the alternate representative for belmont in the mbta advisory board", "i'm assuming that they both can attend these meetings and that would just support jim's efforts", "okay great", "yeah i'll take him with me", "great sure", "so do i have a motion for that so moved", "second", "thank you", "all in favor aye", "okay", "excuse me with regard to this can we talk about that other matter that i discussed with you is that an executive session matter what are the matters like secret code is this like secret code associations or something no no", "remember the other day when i spoke with you on that other matter that other day at that time out of the time selectmen williams was", "like a double secret code", "selectman williams was inquiring if the mbta was in the process of possibly considering when they leave the belmont center train station to be able to reduce their speed from what they are able to travel at", "i know that the police chief has been in contact with the transit police representatives and i know that's something that's been communicated to them that we're in the process of receiving verification that keolis will be implementing a slower speed from the belmont center", "david what talk did you have we've had initial conversations", "the police chief is following up", "so i don't want to say it's been fully implemented but i know the conversations that have been had about making sure or asking that if the speeds of the train leaving belmont center station and crossing on brighton street can be at a slower speed than what is allowed", "so we will provide you information once we receive confirmation and conclusion from the mbta", "yeah what i can say is that my information was that the speed limit for the train at the brighton street crossing was seventy five miles an hour and this is the limit that doesn't say", "that can travel up to that", "yeah that doesn't say that they're going seventy five miles an hour but i thought it probably made sense since the distance between belmont and alewife is only a mile", "you don't really gain a lot of advantage by roaring through the intersection at seventy five and there's probably a more reasonable speed limit that could be assigned", "i agree with that", "so we're in discussions with keolis on the matter yes", "now david asked me where i got the information on the seventy five mile speed limit and i told him i got it from the media", "so whether it's true or not i have no idea no i think", "it couldn't be an alternative fact", "alternative fact yeah", "which is different from the real facts by the way", "but whatever it is i think we'll get feedback on", "okay well i think you're working with yeah no no", "on a little bit more active participation from this board i think might be helpful", "okay thank you", "this other matter about the discussion with the selectmen is into a warrant committee", "traditionally it's been the chair in the warrant committee and the vice chair serves in the capital budget committee", "i know sami you've expressed some not concern but you requested to", "yeah what we had done is switched the roles", "yeah we had", "and i as vice chair had been serving on the warrant committee and you've been serving on capital budget but my time commitments over the next few months are going to prevent me from taking on that role", "it's gonna be hard on me okay", "so i've asked not to be the warrant committee liaison", "it's your just like you designated jim to take your spot on the mbta advisory committee i think", "i mean if its only both you and jim", "i'd like to serve in the warrant at least the way through next few months if you want to serve on capitol we can just flip the roles", "i think jim's got a lot on his plate", "yeah i can", "unless do you wanna serve on capitol budget i mean you've been pushing for capital budget planning process which i think is", "wanting to talk about that", "much needed", "well no but if it's okay with both of you i want to remain on that", "it's not part of capital budget committee", "it's just a group of individuals that are doing that", "oh okay", "it's not all capital it's a capital", "i thought it was a capital budget committee project well", "well it's sort of chaired by anne marie and pat brusch is involved and now roy epstein is gonna be participating as david kale myself and floyd i mean not floyd carmen", "so i'd like to stay on that working group since we've made some headway and then after this spring we can decide what to do", "is that separate than that separate from the capital's budget", "it is absolutely separate", "it's been nothing", "it's been a group of a subgroup of the capital budget a quorum sub group cause it's been anne marie myself pat brusch which is not a quorum and david kale that's been discussing these matters and now", "i mean is this a formal committee or just a working group it's an informal working", "its an informal work", "and roy epstein in the warrant committee has expressed interest in we actually met with roy with some budgetary matters and asked whether he wanted to just sort of join forces because it seem to us or at least to me that the warrant committee i think the warrant committee was just i think roy was just expressing an interest in it no different than we are interested in it and i said why don't we just ensure that we're teaming on this and if you wanna designate someone from your warrant committee to work with us in this working group he said i'd like to do it", "so he's gonna be part of that as well", "so it's same with whomever wants to serve on capital i like to remain on that for now", "sure yep", "okay all right", "so you wanna serve on capital and i'll serve on the warrant or if jim wants to serve on the capital that's fine", "why don't we do that cause there's only a few months left unless you're too busy to do it", "in which case i'll gladly do it", "we can reshuffle the deck", "in giving you the option we can reshuffle the deck after the town election so yeah", "i'll just serve in capital", "so you wanna go we'll go the traditional route", "yeah alternate traditional route and i'm not trying to keep anything from you on the working in that major", "no no that's fine", "but you're working group is coming up with a financing plan", "that's part of it we're doing tours and i'm gonna report out on that in a moment here", "okay thank you", "david", "you need to take a vote i don't think so", "its just no different than the designation", "that's fine", "it's the warrant committee", "i think that's what the bylaw says", "okay okay david what's going on with the home rule petition whatever else you wanna report out on the town ministry town administrator's report i'm sorry david", "sure", "so i have had conversations with representative rogers and senator brownsberger on the draft home rule petitions with regard to the transferability of pouring and retail licenses and specifically the ones that will require all licenses to come to the board for transfer to either new owners even at the same location in the like", "so both have been both representative rogers and senator brownsberger have submitted those languages in each of those potential home rule petitions to the respective councils both the house council and the senate council", "we will receive feedback from both houses already weighed in", "senate is about to within the next week or so", "so we will then make sure that what we've presented doesn't have any fundamental flaws before we submit it as a warrant article to town meeting", "i would just also note that in the course of the conversations the legislature is in the organizational phase of appointing committee chairs in the like currently", "so they're not joint chairs or house or senate chairs at this point that they will be coming", "in addition to that and just doing some conversations i guess it's unclear whether having the home rule petition presented to the house and senate sooner than the anticipated may annual town meeting necessarily results in faster action", "i think we were advised that there are several variables that take place when home rule petitions are passed by towns and it doesn't necessarily it's not a one for one thing where if you did it in march that it gets treated any faster or any slower than if you did it in may", "it's really up to the chairs", "when does legislative session end there's informal session after they closed which is where we happened last year", "basically the home rule petition was passed that spring town meeting and i believe we went to testify in the fall to the joint committee responsible for reviewing home rule petitions with regard to liquor licenses", "the only thing i would just say is based upon our conversations there's not a guarantee that if you do something sooner that that's going to necessarily translate into faster action by the joint committees", "what committees will look know with that", "i think it's joint committee municipalities and regionals regional items", "so like i said i think the committees are not i just looked on the webpage today", "none of the joint committee chairs or memberships have been appointed yet", "so i guess in terms of schedule we will receive feedback from senate council and final feedback for house council on the language that was provided", "the board then can basically finalize that so that we can include it on a warrant and based upon what i just told you in terms of schedule", "yeah the only thing that's on scheduled is that i've heard informally that folks may want to call a special town meeting to move this forward more quickly", "well i would say that if we wait till the spring town meeting you can have a special town meeting as part of the annual", "they're not going to understand that", "but i mean earlier than that like an off cycle meeting", "based on what you just said i wonder whether that's productive to sort of call a meeting in march or april and our first meeting is may 1st we could do a writeup right then right you could and as i said there's no guarantee it gets acted upon any more quickly if we do it sooner yeah that's what we're hearing all these feedback that even though we might have as a town voted on a revised language for a home rule petition what you're suggesting david may not be taken up by the respective committees and looked at by the legislature any sooner", "they have their own pace and their own schedule", "yeah i don't need to think about that", "well i think i think we need the information that david's referring to", "i think we have plenty to do between now and whenever and i also think that if the issue comes up and it comes before the liquor authority we have our purview there as well", "so we can prevent transfer i mean if we want to we can continue on that basis", "so i don't know if anything's on the schedule or not but i think it's a prudent given everything that's going on to work within the schedule of the budget", "so david by the next meeting perhaps we'll know have feedback then we can decide then", "okay", "what you'd said is that we're going for the", "more restrictive language", "that's the only thing that we've been sharing with", "the shorter more restrictive language", "but we haven't at this point here or heard any negative feedback on that", "not yet okay", "we did message them and get an email concerning the bring your own", "byob", "alcohol", "yeah bring your own beers bring your own booze", "i guess it'd be beer or booze", "what's the thinking on that so right now we don't have a bylaw that restricts folks from bringing their own beer and wine to local establishments that don't have licenses", "and my understanding is because we don't they can't", "that is true yeah", "say that one more time please", "because we don't have a bylaw", "people can do that", "they can do that", "yes", "yeah i mean", "you used to do it full disclosure kitchen on common which i'm sad to seeing their doors close and buy a bottle of wine from spirited gourmet and my wife and i would have a nice dinner there", "so i think it's a quality of life issue for our community", "as long as there's not abuse there", "i don't think we should look at at least my point of view is a bylaws restricted", "is that why that was circulated was it for us to think about i think it had come up and someone grabbed the liberation", "but also the abc has issued new regulations to expand that to i believe", "yeah the corking", "different kinds of establishment other than and i'm trying to think pubs and to breakfast places and stuff like that yeah", "so they've expanded that to other kinds of eating establishments which is what we sent you last week", "bring a bottle of wine or something for breakfast is that what you're saying i'm saying that under the abc ruling you could go to different establishments and have the ability", "can a restaurant restrict that as a matter of policy i think they can i'm not certain", "so david what are you saying then that i mean the traditional use has been kitchen on the common", "are you saying now it's expanded to pizza places and is that or was it always available i think also and again i'm doing this from last week is i think it was taverns or breakfast places or those kinds of places", "or even that serve pizza that doesn't have a beer or wine license", "you can just bring in a beer or wine", "oh well or other establishments you're saying", "it's been expanded to then the typical as you say kitchen on common", "will you tell us the establishments as well", "nope nope nope", "just different kinds of restaurants", "oh interesting", "so maybe we should take a look at that but we wanna be probusiness obviously", "we do yeah", "if you didn't have a license can you if you have a license to serve your folks bringing in their own beer and wine", "i don't believe so", "and it's not all alcohol either", "it's beer and wine", "so the legislature has expanded", "yes", "abcc has it", "well they've issued regulations to allow the expansion", "if they can being their own beer and wine", "different kinds of kinds of stack", "different kinds of a stack can we read that and just so that everyone knows although i think we've mentioned it before there is another and i'm not sure if it's all alcohol license or not but the distillery over on brighton street sells their product", "and as a state license", "as a state license that doesn't come under the local license", "that is correct", "but they don't sell beer and wine do they david they just sell their own product right", "is that what that license restricts them to their own product so it's not like a package store and that's a separate alcohol license that we don't have authority over", "so is that something david because it's been expansion you think we need to take a look at or just leave as it is", "that is literally hot off the press", "we've been doing a review of our rules and regulations", "so this will probably cause us to take another look at that before we submit some draft recommendations", "we can have a bylaw that prevents that can we i think it was the licensing board can have rules and regs", "even if a state license is permitted or are we talking about the distillery now no we're talking about the expansion of", "of the byob", "we could have rules and regulations that say you can't maybe limit hours", "you can't bring your own beer", "maybe we need to think about that ceratin hours of the day yeah", "just as a rule like at dinner", "the rule and regulations does have statutory effect meaning that if we have that then you have from six hundred pm to one thousand pm", "well then they wouldn't get a common victualler license right", "if they didn't comply with the rules and regulations", "so as a way to enforce it", "right maybe we need to think about that a little bit more", "okay", "and then the next thing to report mr chair as you noted earlier in the meeting toll brothers is having a public meeting to discuss their remediation plan for the site and to talk about schedule and other topics with the public tomorrow evening", "under the statutes they are required once they submit their remediation plan have a twenty day commenting period which they have submitted and we'll discuss tomorrow", "we've been asked to think about providing a town sponsored licensed site professional to review the plan and to make potential recommendations as part of the twenty day commenting period", "while the process yields that the licensed site professional does have a public commenting period and absorbs and collects comments from the public to potentially incorporate those into the plan", "it may be prudent to engage a consultant that we have identified to take a look at the ram and to make suggestions to the licensed site professional for toll", "so to insure that we have all the bases covered", "the licensed site professional can or cannot include them in their ram plan", "but i think that we've had conversations with toll and they are again looking to be collaborative and trying to be cooperative", "so i think that depending upon what the potential recommendations are that they would be considered seriously", "so i believe that is some of the things that we've heard", "so", "i actually suggested that we think about having a i don't know if it's a peer review per se but you know i know our health department received the reports from the lsp as well as we do as well", "it's a privatized sort of processes in place", "although there is rules and regulations and statutory oversight of lsp dep", "my understanding is that dep per se doesn't really sign off on any sort of ram", "yeah there's a comment period by statute and for us to hire a peer review consultant to provide comments on behalf of the town", "i think that makes sense", "i think that its a prudent idea", "i agree", "so we will engage that individual that we received a recommended", "as long as providing comments", "so whatever we provide it's a peer review", "we provide our comments but whatever the ram is they couldn't decide to incorporate it or not right", "right", "so basically the licensed site professional is required to provide a plan that adheres to dep regulations and that gets submitted to dep and basically gets filed", "so we will engage that", "we will receive will this or unless i hear something different", "i'd like to know who asked us to do this", "i actually asked david to take a look at it", "mark paolillo", "mark paolillo is the chair and the reason for that change", "i mean he said we'd been asked i just", "no no", "i don't think david i think you've heard from others", "i think david has heard from other folks as well", "and i think it's something", "local resident concern", "but i think david along with the health department has also chatted about this", "so when i approached david he said", "certainly not opposed to", "we'd been talking about this", "i mean i didn't source it completely", "the table was aware of that and also was talking to angela brown and the health department", "there've been several emails from members of the public that have talked about the ram and talked about what the town's ability", "i mean it's not to say that i'm not sure that it sets precedence this is a significant build there's a concern in that neighborhood about the environmental issues", "not to suggest that toll brothers has hired sage consulting inc", "and they'll be at the meeting tomorrow night", "not to suggest that they're not gonna do their job cause they're licensed", "but i think it's good government for us to provide our independent point of view hiring someone to do a peer review for a fairly small amount of money whatever the cost might be david", "well we've been asked to review and comment and we're making that review meaningful", "well i mean i thin", "by bringing on", "some of these issues look i'm a cpa in brittany's areas", "i think some of the stuff that will be presented might require someone who has that background", "jim you in favor of that yeah sure absolutely", "all right so do i have a motion to what is this to engage someone specifically or to pursue sort of investigated on", "i think we've identified individuals so we will engage them", "right", "so do i have a motion to approve the town administrator engaging in a licensed site professional to provide", "a peer review", "peer review of the ram plan that will be issued by sage consulting inc", "on the cushions village site", "toll brothers", "to provide comments during the twenty day comment period", "so moved", "second on favor", "aye", "thank you david for pursuing that", "i'm going to attend this meeting tomorrow night and i'm obviously going to sit in the back in the audience just to listen but we'll just see what comes out of that meeting", "but thank you david well", "that's not being sponsored by the board or anything", "no no", "that was inspired by toll brothers", "no i understand", "is it their requirement to do that or i think they started with the public information plan but they will be released", "i haven't fully read that plan that was sent to all of us", "so it might be helpful to look at that", "its starting at six hundred and forty five right", "yeah", "it's an odd hour", "six hundred and thirty six hundred and thirty", "six hundred and thirty excuse me then", "any further mr town administrator", "no when we get to the meeting that's we have a couple of small chance", "so i think everybody but just on liaison reports and then maybe others just two that i wanna report out on", "major building projects i already talked about that", "so it has been that hard working group that grew out of sort of this whole identification and the need to look at capital major building projects", "if you recall starting from i don't know if you're on the board at the time jim but board of selectmen tasked the capital budget committee to put together a priority matrix in the scheme they did that they provided it back to us", "they sort of provide it back to us that and then we asked capital budget committee to start to think about a plan forward and what grew out of that is ad hoc working group if you will not appointed by the capital budget committee but members of the capital budget committee which included myself pat brusch and anne marie mahoney david of course joined us and then it's been expanded now to include roy epstein the chair of the warrant committee", "for carmen is not a member per se but we'll be providing information on financial projections debts and all of that", "we have scheduled a number of tours beginning this friday", "i think we're touring", "one these station well he said i believe public works", "i think phyllips made a copy of the schedule", "so the working group", "this is the committee", "the committee yeah", "so we're gonna tour all the major building committees of buildings so please stay tuned", "we're gonna look at the incinerator site", "we're gonna look at a dpw facility the high school and the high school", "library for the libraries god help me", "we got a question is this a public count if you want that's fine", "we don't wanna post the meetings but i'm happy to listen there's nothing there that we just discussed", "i think part of the challenge of course is we have four major building projects", "we have the high school that we're in the middle of a feasibility study for that we're looking at in conjunction with the mass building msba masco building authority", "the library trustees of course have a feasibility study group as well that's looking at the library and so we have major building projects that if you collectively put them together cost this town several hundred million dollars", "so how do we approach this what's the plan in terms of moving forward over the next ten fifteen twenty years and i think this is what this group is hoping to provide recommendations to this board to capital budget committee warrants committee and then hopefully a presentation of town in terms of thinking about a way forward", "clearly the high school was right in front of us", "we're facing with a significant debt exclusion sometime in the near future", "but beyond that those other three buildings are in desperate need of upkeep and repair and of course we have the skating rink that's part of the outlook that we're looking at that per se because the skating rink", "we should revisit that at some point david", "skating rink was if you recall there was a public private partnership thought about that one", "and that's been strategically paused waiting for the high school", "yeah feasibility stuff", "to see what the footprint may or may not be", "that's right and you're part of the building", "yes", "and i might add mr chair the other one is the community path in some ways has an impact on some of the projects such as the high school and public works", "so that's sort of intermingled", "speaking of that committee path implementation advisory committee has been hard at work with our consultants pair and i went to a meeting last", "thursday thursday i think it was it was it thursday it's all blending in either wednesday or thursday", "last week last week", "last week lord help us and they are now scheduling", "i think this date has changed david", "three public meetings and they're primarily focused on right now is continuing to introduce i think what they've gone pare has done in conjunction with cpiac is introduce a very objective process where they have criteria for matrix", "now some of that's subjective for us but looking at all of the root segments and options broken down between the west the central and the east and also putting criteria having criteria for those in grading those and so from that what you're likely to see is top three sort of root segments for each of those particular areas of town", "i think there's a lot of objectivity associated with this process i support it", "it's difficult and challenging not to try to jump to a conclusion", "but pare has allowed cpiac to really take a very deliberative process in terms of how they look at this", "so to that end they are scheduling three public meetings", "i think the wednesday january 25th has that changed i thought it did", "that's the final schedule", "so wednesday january 25th at six hundred and thirty pm no seven hundred pm", "these are all going to be held in the town hall auditorium", "they will discuss the evaluation criteria for their western end waverley square to the dpw property", "then on february 8th at the same time seven hundred pm in town the town hall auditorium they will present the criteria for the matrix criteria for the central area which is the eastern end of the dpw property to belmont center", "you think about how they broken this down", "it really is logical and then finally on wednesday february 15th they will have a public meeting to present the evaluation criteria for the eastern end which is belmont center to the railroad bridge brighton street that connects it to of course the cambridge community path and then finally on march eight it's a summary of in hot topics meeting at the same time at seven hundred pm", "the purpose of the meetings will be to present the consultants conceptual design while the alternatives carried forward from cpi cpac as well as potential alternatives for each segment discussed at the meeting", "so i know this has been posted on the website i believe right so there's a lot of work evaluation criteria the matrix is very complicated", "on the bottlenecks", "bottlenecks and it's really a lot of criteria", "a lot of i really want to thank members of the cpiac in the amount of time and effort they put into this", "i plan to try to attend some of these meetings", "i don't think i can attend to all of them but if both of you are available gentlemen might be helpful to listen in", "what what can you tell us about the process what happens after march 8th so i think after march eight is that once they've gotten the feedback from the community i think they'll start to formulate their recommendations", "and then do we have a oh yeah they're gonna present to this board", "board of selectman for they'll recommend i'm assuming they'll have a recommended", "i think the way they've broken this down is they'll have recommended paths recommendation for path on the western end central area and eastern end and perhaps it's one and two in terms of recommendations", "i don't know i think they're gonna try to formulate from this process a rec", "cpiac will vote on because again pare works for the town supporting cpiac's efforts", "i think cpiac will then be presented with pare's recommendations and they'll take a vote and that vote will", "no different than before will be presented to this board for our consideration", "david i think that's what we heard right i don't know what the timing is jim", "but it could be", "sometimes after march 8th", "oh yeah sometimes after march 8th", "but i think", "so the cpiac has to they have to make their recommendations", "so if you're thinking about i mean it's not pare per say although pier works for us", "the community path implementation advisory committee that's advisory to this board that we formed that will advise us and recommend to us their recommended route segments", "i know there's been some objections in certain circles to the idea of scoring different alternatives", "right", "but like you in which you reflected in your comments i'm always attracted to scenarios", "i think that's really the way to do it", "but does this mean that the cpiac will actually select their recommended scenarios or are they gonna come to the board of selectmen and say well here's nine different ways to look at it", "no they're gonna i mean i don't think that would be productive if they did that because then it's back to like well how do we decide so i think cpiac based on based on the work that pare will be doing and again i think pare has been having attended a couple of these meetings", "it's difficult as we would all do to not reach conclusions meaning that how about this what about that why doesn't this make sense rather what pare has cause they've done this a number of times has consulted with us and really work with cpiac on ensuring that it's a very sort of deliberate logical process where they're really looking at evaluation criteria and the matrix", "the point of view of them of pare is that the matrix will then present", "i'm not sure how clear it'll be", "present alternatives that will sort of rise to the top based on the evaluation criteria that they've employed", "so it's a complex matrix approach that they've in fact it might be helpful to provide that", "i think we got those materials", "i think that both of you are copied on it right you copy on jim williams emails", "yeah", "so this is a distilling process", "yeah it is", "okay thank you", "any other liaison reports", "cpac or the cpa community", "we voted favorably on all the projects that are proposed they'll come before us", "wonderful", "the pq playground", "everything was settled up on that and the sons of italy the records preservation everything", "we did have one descending vote on that but so you have to judge for yourself", "okay", "that wasn't unanimous but all the other projects were unanimous", "okay great", "and on that committee i actually vote so you know i do deliberate with them on the opeb committee for example i don't deliberate with them", "i'm just the liaison and i stay away from deliberation on that committee", "that's it for me", "sami do you have anything no report", "okay all right any other matters david minutes yeah minutes are you here for purpose sir yeah i wanted to meet with the selectman", "my name's john higgins", "could you go to the mic there please", "do you have a question no i just wanna introduce myself and my company luxe express janitorial service", "okay we need to do that after the meeting", "if that's okay great", "all right so we have a lot of minutes here gentlemen are we prepared to move forward with these i hope", "i had two small comment", "you said you had something david", "yeah selectman baghdady vicechair baghdady had a good catch on december 12th meeting where we had", "the regular session", "yep where we basically on page three we had an extra zero", "so it should have been four hundred thousand instead of four million", "so that's a typo", "so and then on", "small mistakes big consequences", "and here's a change for december 28th one copy down okay", "oh i maybe okay", "so under the taxi cab number", "hang on here december", "28th", "no go back on the forty million error", "on the 12th on page three", "the minutes are wonderful i mean i very rarely i don't have any comments usually", "the next to last what paragraph on page three of the december 12th meeting notes", "where's the number third four million", "right", "you wouldn't like four million", "sami great catch", "great catch", "i actually read em appreciate that i know you do", "that's why i know that when i reprove them i know you've read em yeah", "i look at them at a high level", "and then on page three of the december 28th there's a small change in the wording with regard to the taxi cab moratorium report provided by vice chairman baghdady", "stated perhaps a moratorium should remain as no one has requested a license during that time", "now the changes is no longer needed no longer needed", "right", "good catch", "okay", "so those are the two amendments we received", "but do i have", "let's go through the minutes quickly then gentlemen it's eight hundred and thirty pm", "so there a motion to approve", "we do these all at once let's do it all at once", "for a motion to approve the following minutes lisa they're in your agenda right right i'll just take the december 12th and 28th and write as amended", "so i will do those separately right oh okay", "so a motion to approve the july 11th two thousand and sixteen regular session and august 22nd two thousand and sixteen regular session the september 12th two thousand and sixteen regular session in the october 24th two thousand and sixteen executive session the october 28th two thousand and sixteen working session", "then november 7th two thousand and sixteen joint meeting with the warrant committee the november 14th two thousand and sixteen regular session the december 2nd two thousand and sixteen working session and executive session december 12th two thousand and sixteen executive session and the december 19th two thousand and sixteen regular session", "a motion to approve those minutes", "so moved", "second all in favor", "aye", "and do i have a motion to approve as amended the december 12th two thousand and sixteen regular session and the december 28th two thousand and sixteen working session", "so moved", "second", "all in favor", "aye", "the next meeting is february 2nd two thousand and seventeen at nine hundred am here in the board of selectmen room it's working session and then we have a meeting on monday evening february 6th at seven hundred pm", "isn't that the joint meeting david the", "isn't that the joint meeting with the it is isn't it no that's the 13th i believe", "okay then on february 13th", "i'm sorry the 13th we'll be presenting the budget", "is the budget presentation the joint meeting with the warrant committee and school committee here in the board of selectmen meeting", "okay", "no further business do i have a motion to adjourn i'd like to ask that the working session be on camera because it's gonna be about the financials i think in the spirit of open transparency would be good to have that meeting on", "when you said the financials but does that mean that is to report to the board where we are prior to budget submission to inform you about where we're at in terms of the budget process", "i mean that's fine", "i don't know if it's necessary but that's fine", "i mean", "okay and then my second question is", "i mean it's really more of a working session jim so i mean it's really not a formal meeting per se", "although we are meeting formally", "it's an open meeting and you really need camera to involve bmc in that i've been asked", "okay", "it's open meeting", "yeah", "its open meeting okay", "secondly", "you folks can attend the meeting and then we'd have the bmc come out", "eight o'clock on friday", "it means we wear a tie", "we can't dress as casually as you do", "go ahead", "the second thing is the executive session we were referring to can that be scheduled for february 2nd what the executive session the one that david was talking about", "humbly i don't believe you're gonna have enough time to do all you need to do on 2nd", "it's important", "so wait a second i don't even know what executive session you're talking about no no no that's the topic that you wanted raise tonight", "david advised should be an executive session", "right right", "is it ten minutes discussion i mean it's scheduled for", "will we be prepared by then if you're not gonna be prepared i don't know yet", "it's something that the three of us discussed", "well you can post that executive session if you're not prepared then we won't be known", "well we should spend ten minutes deciding that we're not prepared then because of the three of us need to discuss", "no i mean why don't we plan to meet in executive session to understand what jim is thinking about", "yeah that'll be helpful we don't necessarily have to", "that's fine no if i have to", "so we have a scheduled meeting", "is it at nine or eight david it's at nine that's fine nine works", "but that was thursday february 2nd", "cause we had tried it friday we changed it cause you weren't available", "i'm indisposed", "i'll tell you why", "so nine hundred am david knows", "nine hundred am works right let me just look", "is it nine hundred am because it's after the vhsvc meeting", "that's why", "that's right", "okay nine hundred am it is", "we start at seven hundred and thirty and then leave it yes okay", "it's groundhog day as well so", "all right we have a motion anything further adjourned so moved", "second all in favor", "aye", "pass one thank you", "take yours and pass it down please"], "name": ["BOS012317/BOS012317/BOS_012317_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "BOS012317/BOS012317/BOS_012317_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "BOS012317/BOS012317/BOS_012317_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "BOS012317/BOS012317/BOS_012317_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "BOS012317/BOS012317/BOS_012317_DOT_flac_00004.flac", "BOS012317/BOS012317/BOS_012317_DOT_flac_00005.flac", "BOS012317/BOS012317/BOS_012317_DOT_flac_00006.flac", "BOS012317/BOS012317/BOS_012317_DOT_flac_00007.flac", 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going to be the application for a common victualler's license at the belmont bookstore oh it's not this agenda no it's okay", "no", "so tell us tell us what we need to do on this one", "so we have an application for a common victualler's license at the belmont books seventy nine leonard street", "all of the departments have signed off on the application and it's good to go pending your approval", "and i need to make this statement about the conflict if i may before we do it", "yeah", "i just wanted to state that i've filed with the clerk's office and with the chair my statement of conflict of interest in that i am friends with actually the owners of belmont books and my daughter has a summer job who's going to be working there", "so i'm not going to be voting or deliberating on this license at all", "just a point of order", "and i understand that this that when you reposted the agenda phyllis did you indicate that the start time was eight hundred and forty five am yes that was the purpose of okay great perfect", "yeah the revised agenda", "good job", "so i just want people to understand that our information says nine", "we're starting the meeting before then but you posted agenda eight hundred and forty five", "it was revised yeah", "mr chairman i move that we approve this common victualler's license", "i second", "all in favor aye", "one recusal", "is that an abstention or recu recusal i'm not voting at all", "all right now i'm leaving", "okay", "do you have to take over or something i do i'll just sit right here and take over", "you're going to take are you nervous or anything no i've done this before", "i've been the chair for four years out of seven", "phyllis you'll take care of this for me i will thank you", "great to see you all", "good to see you jim", "thank you", "well since the thank you have safe travels mr chairman", "since that we have waiting for myron kassaraba on the logan airport community advisory committee i will skip that for a moment", "i don't see any questions from town residents", "do we have any community announcements phyllis we do they're in the flap of your book", "they're not in the flap of my book", "oh", "here you go", "all right", "so oh we're back to cardboard recycling", "so yay", "yeah that's hard to do isn't it this is such a useful thing and the big one", "oh but we are going to do a proclamation on this", "right sure yeah so first and foremost this board wants to recognize the belmont girls rugby team", "they are the state champs yay", "great job they had a win over algonquin", "i don't know what the score was but we got more points than they did mr chair", "yeah i think that's right mr dash", "so i think that's just terrific", "congratulations to all of them", "and i know that we're planning in a future meeting to have them come in", "we're going to read a proclamation and congratulate this incredible performance", "franklin was here", "how long has the girls rugby team been in place do we know i know they've had a boys rugby team for a number of years", "i do not know", "how many years they've had the team yeah oh they've only been about two years", "it's not a it's pretty new", "it's not a sport town it is it is", "it is now it's for the first year this is the first year that girls rugby has been a recognized miaa sport", "what is it it is it it is now yeah", "the boys recognized as well as an miaa yes the rugby this is the first year rugby is in any state in the country massachusetts so there's no longer clubs for girls franklin", "no for girls and boys", "oh for girls and boys", "oh that's great", "so the first champion the first champion", "sorry to say i wasn't at the game but franklin was it was a great game you said right oh an amazing game", "yeah so congratulations congratulations to them", "absolutely", "to read a proclamation", "that's just a wonderful it's a wonderful sport", "my son played and broke his leg", "but it's a difficult sport to be a part of", "so anyway congratulations to all of the girls that participated in that terrific win", "okay", "and i think you're sharing this with each of us right phyllis yes one for you one for me one for thank you", "the chairman if he so desires", "okay", "cardboard recycling will be taking place on june 24th from nine hundred am to noon at town yard thirty seven c street saturday june 24th", "that's terrific", "we have we've sent out this is the committee", "matt have we sent out mailings on that committee volunteer interests yes the letters went to the chairs of the committees and boards", "okay people need to respond back by july 7th yes that's correct", "and i know one of the things we're looking at perhaps is revising mr dash has brought to this board which i think is helpful a revision of the procedures around committee appointments", "looking forward to discussing", "and i slightly tweaked it from the last time but the one thing i would what i would like to do is to take these draft comments cause these draft committee appointment rules because we have no committee appointment rules and to circulate them to all the town chairs of the various boards committees and commissions to get comment maybe ask them to respond by july 31st cause we clearly are not going to be able to implement these rules for the current round of committee appointments cause those are happening as we speak", "and this these rules would these new rules would require certain deadlines which would actually be good to hold our feet to the fire to make sure things happen in a timely fashion", "i agree with that", "and that would also give people an idea when they say how do we how do people get on committees you can point them to a procedure cause right now there just isn't one", "so to just circulate this maybe as a draft get comments from the chairs of the various boards and committees have them respond by the end of july", "then we can talk about it", "maybe see about implementing this as of september one or some version of this", "no i think that's fine i think that's right adam", "and i know you're looking at best practices as well and that's important", "right and this is sort of we looked at a number of towns i thank susan and phyllis for pulling that together that but it looked like weston's was the one that was sort of more like where we wanted to go", "but obviously it had to be belmontized if you will", "and so we went and we changed some parts of that and clarified it", "there's no just so you know there are no term limits being proposed in this version not for this current round", "but for future policy maybe", "i think we have to get chair comments", "it may be the comments from all the chairs is that they want them in which case then we'll have to talk about em", "i think the one thing and i know that this is a concern of yours as well or just i don't know if it rises to the level of concern but one comment when we tried to put in term limits the point that was made and i know you've made the same point is we have a lot of younger families that are moving to town a lot you got a lot of individuals younger individuals that want to get involved in town affairs", "committee participation is a great way and a great vehicle to get informed about the community in that you expand you know what you do in town", "many times there's no room on these committees", "right and it was amazing", "i went to the vision twenty one implementation committee recently one of their meetings", "and they have a couple of people who are relatively new to town who are younger and they bring an entirely different viewpoint as far as how to do outreach and pr and how things should look going forward", "and i was taken aback by that", "and you don't see that in a lot of the committees", "so i think it would be i've been telling anyone i can you know if you want to get involved and i say it to the people on tv if you want to get involved in committees this is the time to do it because the applications are open and go online on the town website you can fill out the form submit a resum", "there are committees and commissions on every topic under the sun i'm sure you are qualified or interested in one of them", "and this town's mostly run by volunteers to be honest", "and if you don't volunteer it's very tough to run the town", "we couldn't do the work that we do without all of the volunteerism on these committees", "i know i started in the traffic advisory committee", "i know you started on a committee as well and this sort of grew from there you know", "yup then i became a town meeting member", "and then eventually i was appointed to the warrant committee", "you know i followed you from committee to committee to here you know that", "i was at the cpa committee with you there", "and then the warrant committee and now here", "i was wondering you weren't on the shade tree committee though right i somehow missed that one yeah", "former colleague of mine on the board was on the shade tree committee", "but you weren't on the pool committee but nevertheless as well", "i was wondering if maybe i mean i know the chairman isn't here but i don't think this is terribly controversial if we could vote or just ask to submit this draft that we have here", "cause all i want to do is submit a draft and get comment and i don't want to waste a lot of time", "that's fine so i move that we so this is a draft of this year's procedures", "it's a draft of procedures", "it doesn't have a date on it", "my feeling is i would not implement until the fall because i think it's too late to start implementing it now this is the draft here you want to share with the chairs right now the chairs have all about term limits or number of that's right", "or number of committees you can serve on any of that that is correct", "it sets procedures for new appointees and for renewing renewals of committee members and how we do outreach and the timelines by which those things have to be done", "and then how the votes happen", "it just it codifies pretty much what we kind of do right now", "i don't know whether we need a vote", "we'll just have it i'm fine with you know i'm fine with sharing this draft form with committee chairs and getting feedback", "just getting comment and and more formal procedures", "and if we could tell them to respond by july 31st cause i don't want to drag it out", "adam i do think that you know the more controversial topics like term limits perhaps or numbers of committees number of committees you can serve on is an important consideration for us", "there are two things", "one is to have rules at all because you know if someone ever complains that they were not appointed to a committee or something like that and they say that they were then treated or discriminated against or mistreated right we can point back to some rules that we followed that are clear and public", "so i think that helps insulate us in that regard", "and second and also the people who are going to be on these committees know what the rules are before the game begins so to speak", "great", "so putting in the controversial stuff is really not the point right now", "the point is get some rules on the books", "and if we decide from getting committee chair feedback that we want to tweak it i'm perfectly open to that", "okay right great thank you adam", "so you were there a couple other announcements you wanted to yeah there are i'm going to go through them right now", "so you are going to share this with committee chairs and we'll get feedback", "mmhmm", "yes asking them to respond with their comments yup by july 31st", "thank you adam", "and making it clear to them it's just a draft", "this isn't the final final", "yeah thank you adam for thank you for doing we app we appreciate it", "okay", "there's the meet belmont event this year is being held on tuesday august 29th two thousand and seventeen from six to eight hundred pm at the chenery middle school", "this is run and sponsored by the vision implementation committee", "it's a wonderful event for those of you that are new to the town", "and then phyllis pavement management projects", "i think i've been experiencing it every morning", "so is this a broader point of view here tell the listening audience and those in attendance that have patience we're repaving the roads we're at the start of the construction", "so you're going to run into traffic in the early morning", "it's that time of year", "that time of year", "as opposed to what other time of year is that that you're running into traffic you know", "oh no", "the construction gets can we get sort of specific routes about that are being paved so i can avoid those in the morning is that possible we can give you the routes", "i don't know that you can avoid can i have a little siren on the top of my car to get through talk to the state about that", "yeah i'll talk to the state", "there's also a housing trust meeting i don't know if you went oh was that in here that was last night", "okay", "it was last night", "the housing trust met last night so", "oh and also we want to we also do want to i'll bet you'll recognize what's aram's last name i forget it", "postaljian aram's coffee shop or diner", "it's a diner", "all members of the board were there yesterday in celebration of his three decades within town", "i think all of you know who aram is", "in cushing square", "you know aram's and there's quite a feast for lunch so that was a terrific celebration", "so on camera let's congratulate aram for the wonderful service he provides to this community and it's iconic and he's an institution now", "and i love going there for breakfast", "and he told us last night yesterday which i'd never heard", "i didn't hear this before and asked my daughter about it", "apparently the high school kids after the all night party they all sort of go down to aram's for breakfast", "did you know that lisa did you i did not know that", "he said like fifty sixty seventy kids go down there for breakfast", "it's sorta like a tradition", "like at five hundred and thirty in the morning", "five hundred and thirty in the morning he's the only one there", "and they're very patient they're very cool", "a little tired but they sit there and they get breakfast and he cooks it up for them", "and i just love going there", "it's just it's sort of like the place in belmont to attend absolutely and get going in the morning for breakfast", "so we wrote it right a nice proclamation and we congratulated him", "so again aram congratulations on your success", "okay", "we're right at nine o'clock", "so i know myron is here", "we can move right into unless there's any other community announcements do you have anything further are we doing any of oh brendan's home run phyllis it's not in here", "brendan grant home run father's day run is this sunday", "it's always on father's day", "i've run it a number of times", "unfortunately i'm not signed up this year", "i have a conflict but i forget what time it is", "it's online you can go to brendan's home run", "what time is it usually it's nine hundred and thirty it could be ten o'clock", "nine hundred and thirty ten and there's hundreds of runners correct franklin there's a ton of runners and there's some there's a possibility that we might have a 5k record", "oh really well i know that's not going to be me", "who's that going to be some very feminine very fast young lady", "i have run the 5k you know i'm not you know not in record pace but no", "that's just wonderful", "this is just and i think casey and leonard probably came in front of us for approval at some point phyllis i don't remember when", "but this is just a wonderful event", "he's taken an unfortunate experience in his life and his family's life and turned it into this wonderful organization that raises a lot of money within our community and gives back you know especially to the athletic programs and the fields and things of that nature", "and so those of you that are available i think you can walk on and run or you can go down and participate there's all kinds of activity and it's on father's day and it's kind of a cool thing", "anything further andy do you have any no for community announcements no", "okay i think myron's here", "any questions from town residents some that showed up here now", "does this little boy have a question you'll have to use the microphone back there julie", "julie you'll have to come back here", "yeah do you wanna go first identify yourself", "okay", "sure", "my name's kate bowen i live on bartlett avenue", "hello", "we came a couple of us have come to represent folks in the neighborhood who live on bartlett avenue or abut bartlett avenue because we're concerned about the way it is being finished", "so the road was on the reconstruction list for last year but nothing's happening to the sidewalk", "some neighbors have opted to pay in for curbs including myself but nothing else is being done", "so i came i have to go to another meeting but i came just to ask and to share about safe routes to school", "this route is part of our safe routes to school route", "and it only has one existing sidewalk", "that particular road serves a major bus station at the end of the street there on trapelo", "harriet and bartlett and trapelo kind of all merge together right there by the dry cleaners", "and that's a bus stop of the seventy three", "and as you know the seventy three is one of the yup top ten top seven maybe", "abut palfrey square yes yes yeah", "the sign's no longer there", "just the people down at the yes right right", "so a number of roads were looked at in our safe routes to school walk assessment which was done in two thousand and fifteen", "i'd be happy to provide that report to you if you don't have a copy of it", "several of our department heads participated in that walk", "i won't go on to the other streets but it does seem like there's some information that needs to be shared about what safe routes to schools is", "it's both a state organization and a national organization", "and in belmont different schools are active at different levels but the program itself works to help schools identify safe routes increase participation by walking and biking", "there's you know largely programming", "and then there's also as you know some infrastructure financial support through grants", "belmont's already received one that grant is still in process", "that was back in two thousand and fourteen that it was awarded for wellington", "again that was an area where the sidewalk wasn't fully reconstructed from a major intersection to the school just the school frontage", "so we're concerned about bartlett cause nothing is happening with that sidewalk", "a second layer of concern is a lot of areas", "you know there's a lot of inequality basically", "we're looking at driveway skirts that are being treated with asphalt", "we're looking at repairs that are being slathered with asphalt", "so it really looks like a widening of the road and not a distinction between sidewalk and i think we i think we got an email on this", "is this a road that's being repaved under our pavement management program correct", "community development is working on this issue with the okay we have the various people we have sidewalk funds as well right so if this is safe routes to school we can have glenn speak to them let's look at whether we can prioritize that sidewalk replacement as part of the pavement", "it is part of it is being addressed looked at by community development", "they are they have received comments from folks and they are still it's a work in progress", "yeah my understanding from having mr vice chair from having dealt with this issue of with some of the residents recently and with mr clancy is that there's a twopart process", "they went and did a part of the work", "then they went to do another street and then they're going to come back and finish up", "and then the contractor i guess controls the timing of which street they do when within the whole contract", "so they are coming back", "so what you see is not complete", "however that the final plan i don't think goes as far as from what i understand the residents want", "that's correct the final plan would include sidewalks adam is that it curbs i mean there are not even curbs on some of these", "i take my daughter to play soccer down at pq and we park on bartlett sometimes and there's you can pull right up onto the sidewalk", "i mean it's not", "the street's in horrible horrible condition", "i know that's being addressed with the pavement management", "so it will be better but it won't be great", "can we look at this a way especially if it's a safe routes to school we're looking at it", "we are looking at it", "it's obviously a part of the plan and it is being addressed as described", "it's not as fully addressed as people would like but", "well can glenn look at that and then feed you know in coordinating with him get back to us on this matter yeah that this should be in the summer months and we can take care of this during the summer months before school begins in the fall", "i had emailed glenn about that but i believe he's away this week and next or something like that", "so yeah", "there has been there is a response", "i understand it is not to the extent that folks would like it to be but we you know we're we're trying to manage it within the plan because we're trying to be sensitive to where the funds have to go and what it costs", "and you know i'd be willing if the neighbors would like when glenn is back to have a neighbor if you want to and all of us or just one of us have a neighborhood meeting", "maybe down at the school or something like that", "if you don't mind then if you wanna since you've already sort of reached out to glenn to sort of take this on sure", "yeah i'd be happy to do it", "if there's an opportunity to do more here then let's think about it", "i think that should be me", "i know for instance i was involved with the burbank parents when they were when the crossing guard got hit and they brought in people from the state safe routes to school and all and they told us they had no more money to give belmont", "and even if they did they wouldn't give it to us cause we just got the grant in two thousand and fourteen for wellington", "right", "however we and that's why it ended up going on our budget our capital budget instead of on the state money", "so i would assume they'll probably say the same thing again but we had a really good meeting", "glenn came chief macisaac came and it was a really ni really good turnout of parents", "maybe you know if you guys could arrange a date at the butler school once glenn returns we could have a bigger discussion outside of sort of the formality of this and maybe get to see if there's anything more we can do", "okay", "i just can i offer one more suggestion as you think about those trees and siting trees are sort of the last measure to make site lines that prevent people from parking up", "and they're parking onto the pedestrian right of way they are and we know that the enforcement is limited we have limited ability to enforce", "so really infrastructure and key infrastructure changes are what's going to enable people to access the road", "we'll look at it okay", "i'm just going to work on this directly with you", "if you give me thank you", "pick some dates in july we'll sort something out", "okay that sounds good", "we want to do something", "and it would be great to meet on site", "i know butler's i'm fine i'm happy to meet at your house or anywhere else", "you're welcome in my home have been on it but i gotta go down and check it out again", "if we go in july we can just be outside", "then you'll experience the true nature of bartlett", "yeah thanks for coming", "thank you very much", "thank you", "any other questions from town residents i think julie has", "hi julie crockett at two hundred and thirty two trapelo road", "i'm here for a similar reason that kate is and mark you've already gone to the crux of this which is where is our sidewalk money being spent and so i just wanted to share what what i've observed", "so for the two thousand and sixteen pavement management money several roads including sharpe which we are aware of needed help", "sherman middlecot and bartlett were all on the list for the pavement management that year", "and then somewhere in between when town meeting gets that list and when construction started they decide which sidewalks they're going to do", "and once they've started work you can go on the website and click on the various streets and you'll see whether they're doing you know water and sewer", "and you also see whether they're doing sidewalks", "and for sharpe middlecot sherman sidewalks say the date they're doing it or complete", "at this point they're all complete", "and for bartlett the sidewalk said nonapplicable", "so i'd really like some more transparency in terms of how we're deciding out of that list which sidewalks are done", "and also looking at the two thousand and sixteen two thousand and seventeen and two thousand and eighteen street lists as a whole and seeing which of those are safe routes to school", "because when i look at two thousand and seventeen two thousand and eighteen nothing pops out at me more than bartlett which was on the two thousand and sixteen list", "i mean i didn't know that when i wrote to glenn about this similar issue that he said that the safe routes to school streets are ones adjacent to the school like sharpe to burbank not ones that are near the school more like bartlett", "however i can't say whether that's true or not that was just an email", "and then i wanted to get more information and he was on vacation", "so the discussion is sort of open right now", "yeah", "so we we'll get more information", "and certainly if we have that meeting we can get we get glenn there we can do that", "budget funding last year is there's a report that i don't know if it's quite completed yet but didn't we an assessment of the sidewalk conditions to parallel with the road construction", "so when is that report coming can we complete it i think it is this later this summer", "it also goes in conjunction with julie one of the things that we part of the capital budget committee one of the things i pushed for as a member of that committee last year because look there's a endless list of sidewalk repairs", "i mean you can't walk in down any street in belmont and not say gee that's unsafe", "let's just be safe let's just be real about it right that's because of trees and tree roots and things of that nature", "and i think we have invested in sidewalk repair but we're investing more because of the override", "one thing that we thought was important is how do we decide which sidewalks to do right which are the worst in the district", "so we engaged a consultant report as you've heard it's being completed", "it'll inform the capital budget committee which informs which is part of the looks at the pavement management program and sidewalk repair in terms of how we spend i forget what we have each year now", "a couple of hundred grand yeah a couple of hundred", "how we spend our money on sidewalks", "now that being said at least this board and i'm sure the capital budget committee feel strongly that safe route to school sidewalks are probably a priority as well", "okay so bartlett i believe is on the blue route", "and we'll share with you the report", "yeah we're gonna tell you you just heard that", "yeah i just brought a few pictures for you to see", "great thank you", "so this is the general condition of the bartlett sidewalk", "yeah", "and this is thank you", "where it shows that they're not only taking out concrete sidewalks this is bartlett as well that's bartlett", "they're not only taking out concrete sidewalks but they are replacing them with asphalt", "so we're actually getting downgraded", "and then these are pictures of these are pictures of sherman", "there's a driveway apron that's cement", "and these are pictures that are looking north and south on sherman", "and you can see you're suggesting the sherman gets concrete and you guys get asphalt", "that's what i'm suggesting and also that sherman and bartlett well every neighborhood needs to be treated equally", "yes", "no matter what we do", "i mean i think that's only fair i don't know why we decide to do asphalt rather than sod", "i don't know that that's the final decision", "that's why could be temporary", "the asphalt could be temporary i don't know you can't take it out and not put something in", "so we need to we will it is a work in process i think the sidewalk needs be concrete not asphalt", "yeah it may be that that's just the temporary solution until they put the concrete in i don't know", "yeah", "so glenn's latest response was simply that the sidewalk money had already been spent two thousand and sixteen sidewalk money had already been spent", "and so that's just a general condition of two roads that were both on the two thousand and sixteen pavement management list", "okay thank you very much", "we appreciate it", "your son's a doll", "thanks julie", "how old is he eighteen months", "wow", "seems like only yesterday", "okay any other questions hi good morning", "i'm tammy calise i'm at twenty nine and twenty seven walnut street", "morning", "i just wanted to bring to your attention i had the police department do a speed study on walnut street last year between august 15th and september 30th", "and there were thirty eight thousand five hundred and one cars reported coming up and down walnut street during that time", "i'm not sure if you've spent much time on walnut street but cars drive extremely fast", "forty miles an hour was the maximum speed posted", "and while you know the 85th percentile was eighteen miles per hour i've noticed that cars significantly slowed down when during the day there are cars parked on the street and they have to slow down because the road narrows and the fact that i see a lot of people on their cell phones looking down texting on calls it makes me extremely worried with my fouryearold and sixyearold there're also fifteen other kids that live within either side of us on walnut street", "and i know that the police i appreciate the fact that there's limited budget for maintaining streets but i do work with cities and towns across the country doing this kind of work and painting striping the streets just to even give it a more narrow look has been shown to reduce speed", "and i just want walnut street to be considered", "and the sergeant told me last year that you know the treelined streets you know were settled and therefore it wasn't necessarily a problem", "i don't have a tree on my in front of my house and there's a number of other houses", "so i wouldn't necessarily say that walnut street's treelined but the fact that folks can travel the same speed on trapelo road as they can in front of my house on walnut street is a significant concern especially when there're fifteen young kids that live just within a small vicinity and that's just me knowing some of the neighbors", "i don't know kind of to the outside of the ends of walnut street how many kids live there", "appreciate it that's a lot of cars", "so two things", "one is we i don't know whether it's one of the we are moving towards what's the twenty five miles", "we are moving you understand this we the board sponsored an article for the last annual town meetings warrant", "we're moving to a twenty five mile per hour townwide which the town meeting has", "look i think part of the issue is enforcement", "you know we're kind of thin in the police department", "we'll certainly convey your concerns if you haven't already to the police chief and they're very attentive to neighbor concerns about speeding especially on streets where there are a lot of kids", "and they can move around those portable signs saying your speed is i mean there are things that they do", "yeah", "yeah i mean absolutely", "and i you know i appreciate the is it a cutthrough street for tra in the morning yeah", "we can go from where to where again cutting through trapelo where's it go to white street to white street yeah", "to belmont street", "it's a major bartlett street major problem", "and i appreciate that the speed limits being reduced", "but as you said as you said in order for that to work there has to be enforcement and i've never seen one cop sitting on my street ok we'll forward your concerns to the police chief", "have you taken it to the traffic advisory committee as well we've started that process", "that would probably be a good step to take as well", "we've noted this we'll let the police chief know i think speed and look traffic is a big deal in belmont", "we are a cutthrough community", "we've done any number of things", "i've been on the traffic advisory committee on this board", "we tried to narrow streets the reconstruction of pleasant street we believe has helped hopefully to change behavior", "i think the reconstruction of belmont center it's narrowed that even though we get complaints from a lot of residents that traffic is backed up", "we're hoping it just changes behavior not as many cars cut through but it's just a convenient community access points to cambridge into other parts you know watertown lexington it's a cutthrough town", "and that being said we need to do more around enforcement", "right", "and i think julie may have mentioned but butler is ninety five walktoschool whereas kind of the national average is twelve so", "so perhaps we can you know inform the chief about this concern and maybe they can ramp up for a couple you know", "people don't understand that there's tickets that are given out or there's postings or the police are there you know maybe it starts to change some behaviors", "it's probably one of the densest neighborhoods in town", "thank you", "yeah and just one final comment", "i you know giving notice to the police i think is important but again there are cheaper options to making those cars slow down like striping speed bumps or raised beds planters trees", "but that's why i'm suggesting the traffic advisory committee because they're more into the technical stuff than we are", "okay thank you", "thank you thanks for coming", "thanks", "all right any other questions yes", "i'll just chime in and for everything identify yourself please", "oh i'm sorry i'm azra nelson", "i'm a town meeting member for precinct five and i'm a neighbor on vincent avenue for many many years", "i walk to playground to school for over probably twelve years now daily on bartlett up and down", "and for everything that neighbor tammy can say about walnut it's pretty much the same", "vincent harriet alma everything every street especially with the traffic calming measures on trapelo which which is amazing i feel and it's wonderful to actually see how nicer and i'm always very amazed and thankful for that big project that we accomplished for all of those traffic calming measures that we have along trapelo and belmont corridor", "right now we have this huge issue of people essentially moving toward our little cutthrough street and bartlett is extremely afflicted", "it wears so many hats", "and i think that nobody mentioned that it's not just walktoschool street but it's also walktoplayground and huge field street", "we have a humongous amount of traffic just because of that", "and we lacking any signage", "there's not even a sign that there's a playground there", "people take straight shot from harriet all the way to maple terrace or further", "we don't have a lot of trees", "we don't have a really sense that it's a residential neighborhood", "i think its current condition invites speeding invites disrespect", "and i would urge you to consider more trees a little bit more curb appeal with having pedestrian buffers", "that was a big bone of contention with all the neighbors that we're essentially asphalting all the potential pedestrian buffers and asphalting essentially its previous condition", "we do not really doing any improvements", "and there's a zero pedestrian safety at this point even with this new reconstruction that happened", "yeah if we can put when we put that meeting together with mr clancy and all you'll be very very this is a good topic for that conversation", "thank you very much", "i appreciate that thanks for coming", "okay i think that's it", "right so thank you very much for your comments and input", "myron want to join us mike i know you're here for the search", "we're behind so i apologize for that", "morning lisa phyllis", "good morning", "adam myron", "nice to see you", "i'm doing well thank you", "identify yourself", "myron kassaraba", "i guess town meeting member precinct five and the town's representative to the logan community advisory committee and the massport community advisory committee", "so i think you got it in your packets we did an update", "so i'll try to be efficient since you've got a lot of things on your agenda", "not something not an anniversary to celebrate but this marks the fourth year since the flight path changes", "so it was in june", "you've been serving on this committee for four years now almost four years wow", "but the flight path changes actually happened in june of two thousand and thirteen", "so that's when we were rnav'd so to speak by the faa", "and so it's been an interesting time and i think that there's some good news but again these things take a long time when you've got the federal government involved", "so go through a couple of highlights just on the current events", "i think that senator brownsberger mentioned this at town meeting but if people have experienced a greater frequency of noise and overflights for the past four weeks and probably for the next two weeks it's because one of the major runways at logan's been closed it's been in the news", "there was a notice that went out too a press release that went out this week", "yeah i saw it", "i think everybody's got a copy of it but in case people weren't aware this runway handles about a third of the arrivals", "and so basically what's had to happen is that that traffic's been spread out to other runways", "the runway that affects belmont arlington cambridge medford somerville is typically used more in the winter months because of northwest winds", "and so we in june in may usually didn't get this level of a frequency", "so i think that that is i think they're gonna wrap that up by the 23rd hopefully", "and it should go back to sort of a more normal pattern", "so more traffic has been pushed to 33l because of right 33l and all other runways", "yeah but we've gotten more and it's just been at a time when people are outside windows are open you know", "we getting a lot of emails on this i mean i've noticed the planes more often in the morning", "oh yeah", "there's a lot more definitely", "coming over the town", "yeah but that should subside", "and you know the other thing is that june is a really busy vacation travel month", "the economy's doing well and boston's a very desirable destination", "and so i think you know we are going to see increased utilization of all runways", "i think you know it's become a i think we've got direct flights to sixty international destinations and they're just expanding that further", "and some of those flights the cathay pacific hong kong flight takes is scheduled to take off at one hundred and forty five in the morning", "ugh", "so so when do you have to get to the airport for that one no traffic right i've taken the nine o'clock flight to italy", "it's kind of cool", "that's an early morning flight yeah", "yeah", "that's the kind you don't sleep at all runway 4r has been closed", "you don't sleep you have to sleep on the plane", "there's no way you go to bed and then get up and try to that'd be crazy the time difference it'd be awful", "yeah so the second issue is to give the positive update on what's been going on with trying to reevaluate these concentrated flight paths that were implemented four years ago", "and i think as you know the efforts of myself some of the local cac reps the boston west fair skies group our legislators our congressional delegation finally after a couple of years got this issue up on people's radar so to speak", "and and it has resulted in this study called the rnav study which is being done by massport funded by mit", "and we saw the results first results of that back in february", "and they're encouraging from the perspective that there's a couple things that could be done to the procedure both a modification of the speed that airplanes are departing", "the mit guys figured out that at the current speed of two hundred or two hundred and twenty miles an hour you actually get airframe noise from the airplane in addition to noise from the engines", "and that if you slow down the speed to one hundred and eighty miles an hour that airframe noise goes away", "so that could be a way of again just by making a slight procedural change could decrease the but myron read that and he said that's interesting but is that are they still taking off over bel meaning that yeah that's still in takeoff mode flight path", "are they still take they're coming over belmont but are they still in takeoff mode even eight miles out i guess they would be right yeah it's not very far yeah", "yeah", "and then the second thing the more impactful one would be that they're looking at how they can mimic or go back to some sort of distribution or dispersion of the flights back to the way they used to be when we never had any problems", "so as think as you know you've seen the flight paths they go over medford and then they split onto these four rails three of which go over belmont", "the thought right now and they did this in charlotte is that they could go back to having the airplanes reach a certain altitude", "and at that point in time have air traffic control vector them more randomly which is essentially what we had", "isn't that zerosum other communities now start complaining that their airplanes are over there", "well i think the argument is going to be to some people like in east somerville or east cambridge that what you used they used to get these airplanes and now they're just coming back", "they're not getting them we're getting more of them now they're coming back and yeah but it will be a you know an issue especially to people who moved into those neighborhoods in the last four years that didn't have airplanes", "but i know in your office in davis square you've gotten a lot more impact in somerville that area of somerville versus the rest of somerville", "oh definitely", "well when i used to live in somerville years ago you could tell it was one thousand one hundred and forty five cause the fedex plane went over", "yeah", "you could go it was clockwork", "so i've actually posted this update up onto the belmont town town website", "one thousand one hundred and forty five pm", "at night at night", "i'm sorry adam i apologize", "no fedex was always the last plane out at night", "yeah", "and there's some links to the updates if residents want to take a look so", "are you getting a lot more so myron first of all thank you for your wonderful service and i know this has been a contentious issue and we do have congresswoman clarkson i've been involved here correct absolutely", "senator brownsberger and representative dave rogers have really helped out on this", "i mean it seems to be moving in some positive direction", "what where's the end here i mean what what we just it's just an ongoing continued dialogue and we certainly need to continue to have our voice here", "you mentioned in the memo that perhaps we need to think about whether we continue participating in what you're currently participating in in the cacs", "i mean is that well it's a complex it's a that's a where do we go from here complicated i know you hadn't decided that but what more can we do and where do we go well i think that anything that this study comes up with is going to have to be agreed to by the faa", "and so i think one step is keeping a close eye and i'll keep you informed on what happens with the study and if they come back and they say yeah we can do this dispersion but it's going to need to get approval", "we may need to weigh in to encourage them to obtain that approval but that's you know probably still a 12month 12to18month process that has to happen", "i think maybe the confusion between the cacs is is there's actually two of them and sort of the logan cac had been around for you know fifteen years working on this boston logan noise airport study which was a legislated group", "and it's been i wouldn't say replaced but the legislature formed something called the massport cac which is now really being looked upon as the goingforward agency", "and i'm the treasurer of the massport cac", "and it's been a struggle", "we basically have kind of built a state agency from scratch and are now getting to the point where you know we've made some proposals to massport", "we've got john nucci who is representing the massport cac on the massport board", "and so things are moving ahead", "and i think that massport in general is taking an attitude that using the massport cac you know i was in dc probably a month ago for a noiserelated i happened to be in dc for business and i attended a noise meeting with the faa and the industry", "the industry sees noise as the single biggest obstacle to aviation's growth", "so it's gone from sort of oh this is just a few people complaining and eventually they'll stop complaining to now on a national basis the industry realizes that dealing with this is something that is gonna prevent them from growing the industry so", "if they don't deal with it", "if they don't deal with it", "more people are flying i mean that's what people are doing", "it's more common to fly", "i think neighborhoods are getting fed up", "right yeah", "right and longterm i think that you know is it the equipment that's causing it as well changes to the equipment no the planes have gotten a lot quieter", "they have", "yeah", "i think it's to some extent awareness social media you know i think that before you were willing to live with the noise now you're saying you know what i really don't appreciate that", "i think taxes go up to a point where you start to expect things", "but if you start if you talk about and i said this to myron i was sitting outside of my yard and my mom was there", "and i said you know and i focused on the one issue and i said and all of a sudden i noticed all the planes going over", "so once i maybe became aware that this was an issue i said oh my god they're coming over like every fifteen seconds you know so i think people are just aware of it and complaining more and it is noise", "noise pollution right and it's important for your group it's important for the cac to keep pushing", "i mean i think it's a it's going to be a long slog", "is there but you know there and i think some of the things you just suggested here is positive developments and change but ultimately what really can be done i mean cause i mean we haven't we and other you know laguardia and other places where urban airports that have close proximity laguardia is adding new terminals", "i mean the airline industry is nothing but expanding", "yeah", "and you know in denver what they did was moved the airport you know twenty miles yeah they did", "outside of the city", "so we don't really have that option", "yeah we're not gonna be able to do that", "i mean we could look at you know i think worcester just jetblue just started flying to a couple more florida destinations out of worcester", "you know there's been sort of this regional is that a massport decision though myron or is that just the airline industry decision well massport can provide incentives but they can't dictate", "it's just like the cathay pacific flight at one hundred and forty five", "the faa rules are that if an airline shows up and they want a landing or a takeoff slot it can't be denied", "so it really comes down to the industry", "now we could all call up cathay pacific and say could you reschedule your one thousand one hundred and forty five am departure but they're doing it because of landing slots in hong kong or you know or whatever", "so i think that longer term i think there's you know there's some work being done on the health issues certainly for communities like east boston and winthrop and south boston where you know you're closer and there's greater impact but particulates and fumes and stuff", "so what more can we do myron i mean thank you for your efforts and hopefully they'll continue", "you're not getting worn out by it", "i think there's been some positive change since we've added our voice with you to the cac", "and so thank you for that", "is there more that this board can do to support the effort no i think that you know the key to what we've been able to accomplish i think has been to do it on a regional basis", "and so getting arlington cambridge watertown not just dave rogers but representative hecht and sean garballey over in arlington and other people i think has helped tremendously in as well as the citizens group the boston west fair skies that expanded from quiet belmont to being more encompassing", "so in general i think we've approached this in as responsible and you know the best way possible but there are no easy answers", "i mean it's a zerosum game as you said", "i've always kind of felt that way", "now we at one point i think wasn't it bobby riddon that that was helpful here", "now he's no longer he's now a police officer right in another town", "do you have any other folks that are supporting you within the town no i think that you know i guess i'll open it open up for there is no alternate on the massport cac", "phyllis has been serving as the town liaison okay", "with the logan cac", "and i think that again the logan cac may be disbanding", "so that may go away as a committee to be on", "i'm looking at probably one more year of trying to get the massport cac established but then would be happy for other residents that might be interested in serving", "i wonder adam whether the we so with that mind myron does it make sense to consider during this appointment process adding i don't know do we have is there a formal committee for this within belmont no there's a designee which is myron and then there's a staff person i wonder whether we need to which is me so", "yeah there's no alternate", "but the point i'm making is that if you're looking to transition in a year it'd be nice to have someone associated with this process be informed and it'd be an easier transition well you could just have people contact me ok all right and they can get involved", "the last thing that i'll mention is that we did try a little bit of an experiment", "i think david when he was here supported and phyllis helped out in spending five hundred to get a portable noise meter", "you know one of the things that you'd like to be able to do when somebody complains is to say well we're going to go measure what the exposure is", "what we learned is there's a reason why consultants make lots of money doing all of these noise measurements", "it's not as easy as just buying a meter", "and we got a good meter", "you can leave it outside and say oh there you go", "it has to do with matching the noise because it's not just airplanes but it's leaf blowers and traffic and other things", "and so there's a lot of sort of analysis work that needs to be done in order to make sense of that noise", "i'm still working with david waite who's a local belmont resident at seeing if there's a way that we can do more of a sample but it's harder than it we thought it was going to be difficult but it's even harder than we thought", "so i think that if the best thing is that if we want additional noise measurement it's probably to request that from massport and they can they can do that but", "thank you and thank you", "and i'll keep you thank you myron keep you informed", "appreciate your service", "you're doing a great job", "and even though it may seem frustrating keep at it", "we'll get there we'll get some improvement", "we're getting improvements all along", "even in four years adam i think we've seen through myron's efforts and others we've seen increased involvement from congress our congresswoman our state reps and they're listening you know to the communities", "yep", "just have to keep at it", "yes", "chair", "i would just like to mention that myron is rather humble about this but he really is one of the most knowledgeable and articulate spokespersons for this issue", "and that he's very wellrespected by the rest of the committee and his shoes will be hard to fill", "i agree i mean i've known myron for i've known you for a long time and i'm not surprised by those comments", "so thank you myron", "well thank you", "all right take care", "thank you myron", "okay", "now when we go home this weekend we're gonna notice all the planes coming overhead", "you got to stop flying places more", "oh my god", "i mean you know i don't know if you travel how much you travel but the airports are just packed", "every flight is packed", "there's more and more flights", "i think it's just expanding", "more people are flying today", "clearly", "anyway", "jessica could you please join us update on the town administrator search", "we are behind about thirty minutes almost", "so i apologize thank you for hanging in there", "you've been with us since early this morning", "all right", "so the rfp evaluation committee has completed its process", "the committee consisted of myself jessica porter the hr director glenn clancy community development director jay marcotte dpw director as well as brian higgins our hr generalist", "of the four proposals we received we are recommending the selectmen interview two of the firms municipal resources inc and grouxwhite consulting", "both of these what's the second one called grouxwhite", "and you're going to provide us copies of all four it's these two and then the other two we're giving you the two that we're recommending", "who were the four that presented proposals the other two firms were govhr and community paradigm", "it was determined in our review that those two firms did not meet the minimum criteria", "which was what the minimum criteria had to do with let's see here the rfp two years experience conducting searches in massachusetts and completion of five comprehensive town administrator manager searches in massachusetts and the signed statement of noncollusion", "so the other two firms fell short on seven hundred and twenty two which is the completion of five comprehensive manager searches within massachusetts", "so then we proceeded to fully rate the two that i've given to you for review", "mmhmm", "and again they came across as highly advantageous on all points of the comparative evaluation criteria", "so again we're recommending that the selectmen review the two proposals", "i did also give a copy to selectman williams before he departed earlier okay we can get copies of the other two as well i mean we can provide you copies of the other two but they're not being considered", "i know they're not but i wouldn't mind seeing the other two", "i know you circulated that article from the municipal association magazine where they talked about the process and i don't want to run afoul of the rules mr chairman so that's sort of the preliminary yeah here the preliminary search committee which is not supposed to be us which i guess was you", "right we've completed our process", "so i mean technically you can look at them although there's really no way we can consider them given that they didn't i'm not saying that we should i just would like to be informed", "and i read the article as well", "i hear you and i want to answer that", "i just don't want there to be an appearance of any impropriety yeah i saw the article i didn't understand and i appreciate you sharing it but i was trying to understand the point of getting it", "i don't think there's anything that we've done or will do and had done in the past that in any way violates any of the sort of things that were outlined", "well we clearly have not", "no it was just it was timely is essentially where that came from and i just thought it was worth sharing", "i appreciate it thank you", "so again we would like to like i said we're recommending these two firms for interview by the board of selectmen", "i know there was a date circulated to try to get that set up and i've accepted the date", "are these proposals fee blind at this point we have opened the price proposals", "but they're not part of this proposal here no you don't have the pricing information we don't know the cost", "when we interview these candidates these firms will we know the cost um i mean phyllis i'll defer to you in terms of disclosing the price", "at this point i'm kind of of the mindset i'd rather have the selectmen kind of go through everything", "do the interview", "price wouldn't be a consideration it will be once you complete everything", "yeah but we choose one over the other and find out that one is double the price of the other one", "if it's a close call how do we the two prices take that into consideration are comparable on the two proposals", "why wouldn't we want to know price in advance well the request for proposal process is that you evaluate them you interview them and then that's the last part that you look at", "so if you look at it but if we choose one and we don't know the price and understand that their price is substantially higher than we're not going to choose them until we know the price we just have to right", "interview them first and then get the price and rank them", "and then you would begin negotiations okay that's my point", "so we'll get we'll know the price before you oh yes", "before you make the decision yes", "you would rank them i'll disclose the pricing", "one and two and then you would begin negotiating the price with the first one", "if you didn't reach an agreement that you thought was acceptable oh no no no hang on for a minute no", "i think price has to be part of the evaluation", "it will be at the but you just said to me i rank em one and two then negotiate price but i'd like to understand price as well as part of the evaluation", "okay", "but you only rank that is that not appropriate it's the last factor", "you'll just be ranking them based on the interview only", "adam i mean if i'm gonna make a decision on no no i'm not talking about making that decision if they're equal in sort of experience and skill and i might like one more than the other barely you know slightly i want to know what the price issue what the price is what the scope of the service is in terms of that price as well", "so you would rank them then you would look at the pricing and then you could determine if you why would i rank them before i had the pricing because the that doesn't make any sense to me", "the whole purpose of a request for proposal is to get the proposal and to rank them not based on cost", "and then if you that is the statutory really procurement for the request for proposal as opposed to an invitation to bid", "if one is double the cost of the second one", "they go one and two then what do i do i'd like to yeah go ahead please", "okay so the process is that you would open the you would rank them and then you would then you can look at the pricing", "if in fact you and it is a factor in terms of making your final decision", "because if you if one price is exponentially higher than the other and it's for the same service then you would have and you then you have the option of going with the second firm because the pricing is a factor but it's the last factor", "it's not the first factor", "we're hearing the prices are comparable", "right yeah they're so it's irrelevant", "not so wildly apart on these two", "well but here's the other point though and then you would be required to defend if you chose i'm not completely the price that's higher", "i'm not trying to be difficult", "i'm not completely understanding why the board can't know price at all until the end", "so i'm a little concerned about that", "i don't know why we wouldn't be why that would not be shared with us", "i think i would always take that into consideration", "that is especially if the firms are comparable", "you know in one and then with the comparable prices but what's the cost yup right i would offer to you that is the same process that you is that chapter 30b yes", "that is the same process that you followed with regard to selection of the firm that you chose for the community path as well", "it's just the process", "it's not the final de we didn't know the price on pare versus", "until the end until you ranked them", "you picked your first ranking", "if those the rules are the rules", "i don't necessarily have to like it", "if those are the rules those are the rules", "you interviewed", "it's very similar to this", "it's almost identical", "if you hadn't interviewed is the procurement rules that when we put send out an rfp the board is completely blind to price", "then we get to select the path right", "you know the price", "we don't we're not informed at all we're the ones right because that make the decision the evaluation committee then we decide has completed its process", "based on the interviews who we grade then after that we get the pricing", "and then we vote", "so you can take the price no we've we voted but you haven't picked one", "it's just the process you've just ranked them based on an interview", "you haven't voted on who you're going to hire", "right you vote that based upon knowing the price too", "the whole package so it's a multistep thing", "it's what it sounds like to me", "i don't i'm not an expert at these things but i know you are so i just think it's better for the board to kind of look at these you know objectively without having the price in mind as you do your review go into the interviews then that will be all part of it", "and that's part of procurement law yes", "yeah i mean again the evaluation committee has done the full evaluation which is why we're able so just as you did for the community path you rank them one and two and three and then one and two and then we opened the price proposals", "we looked at them we were able to negotiate a price that was great for the number one firm based on the process to that point and then if we can't and then we move forward", "then what do we do at that point and that point then you would go to the second person", "or throw them both out", "yeah the so so the so that and then you know we've talked before and you informed us that you know we also have they did not submit a proposal the collins group right yes they decided not to propose", "they didn't propose but they did send us an information and i don't know what you call it they sent us the scope of services right yes they sent the tour email", "so i've read it we have it", "it's a public document", "they've done work within the state", "they didn't submit here", "in order for us we could decide to then go through this process then through your process look at these firms understand price and decide we're not gonna move forward either one", "and then switch over to the collins center well as you recall when we before you issued the second rfp the one that you got these responses to that was one of the options that was presented to you was that you could go directly to the collins group without doing a request for proposal and the board elected to do another request for proposal", "that's right", "so we it was also sent to the collins group and they declined to submit a proposal to you", "so they're not in that process", "okay", "so again my question is we could decide not to move forward either one of these final two candidate firms", "and they if you have a reason to do that absolutely", "what does that mean well it means that when you issue a request for proposal if you find that no proposals meet your criteria then you can elect not to you can throw them out again", "okay but the issue is that you've got a process that's in place", "that's designed to give everyone a fair opportunity to under the same rules to submit a proposal", "okay", "and so you've got four firms that elected to participate in that process and one firm who elected not to", "and so you would need to go through the process and determine whether one of those firms meet your criteria", "they clearly have met the minimum criteria", "and so and they met if you're unable to negotiate pricing and finalize we would have to decide as a board not to move forward with either one", "right and again the evaluation committee rated both of these proposals highly advantageous on all of the comparable criteria", "so i mean it would be somewhat challenging i would think for the board of selectmen to reject both of them well one of the things that you see with the collins center they have extensive experience", "they've been involved in dozens and dozens of searches", "i know they chose not to not to submit a proposal", "it's too bad", "they've made it clear that they're not subject to chapter 30b", "yeah i was disappointed they didn't submit it", "but that being said i don't think it for me at least excludes them for consideration at some point if in fact we decide or i decide that neither one of these firms matches the same experience level as the collins center", "i think we review them and we see what we have", "i mean we may like one of these firms", "thank you jessica", "so thank you for the process", "it was not can you i don't remember now which one which firm which is one of the last two finalists either one of them were involved in the cambridge search no hr gov was the firm that did the cambridge search", "they didn't reapply they did but they didn't meet the minimum criteria", "they didn't have five searches so hr gov was the cambridge and so they weren't right selected okay", "okay", "in terms of experience we have we'll have that in the prop we can look through that it's all in here i think you'll find that both of these firms if they've met the references and all of that yeah and resums", "yeah we've checked okay", "references we may like one of these two quite well in which case i'm not saying we wouldn't", "so it doesn't it was keep an open mind we'll see what we have", "i'm keeping an open mind", "i'm not saying you're not", "okay so what's the format for the interview i mean i've accepted it", "is it just sort of you're going to provide guidance on questions we ask we can definitely give some guidance on questions to ask that might be helpful cause we're going to go all over the map here", "right", "so i think what we'll do is give some guidelines in terms of questions that would be asked of both firms", "and then some questions of course might be a little off the map because there'll be specific to the but i know one of the things individual proposals that we did on pare i think on the cpiac you could help me understand this is that we were very careful to ensure that we asked the same questions right of the same right", "so again we'll be and warrant could do that it'll be the same questions as a guideline for both", "but again there might be specific questions that you have for each firm based on things within their respective proposals you'd have representatives so those things would have to be of the team that would be working", "yes mmhmm", "i think what's important is we want to meet the team members absolutely", "that'd be working on this", "yes they would they would be here for the interviews", "that's", "anything else adam yep no i mean", "ok so what's the schedule we're gonna be doing the interviews soon", "two weeks we were looking at i think the 26th i accepted it yeah or 27th of june", "i accepted it too", "okay", "i don't know what the date was", "you don't mind sharing the other two i know it was the last week of june to give them to us", "i think it just informs me", "i'd like to read all four of them", "sure", "i know that you know we're going with these two june 27th", "i've read the collins center", "and so we'll think about it you know", "it was june 27th what's the timeframe to award a contract yeah", "i mean i think so we can rank em", "then we have to meet again to decide on what we're gonna do right we're not going to meet decide that day", "i mean in theory you could unless you wanted more time to digest that", "but in theory you could have the interviews and then have a discussion afterwards i don't think i'm gonna get the price information be in a position to decide immediately that day you know", "you wouldn't deliberate your decision in front of them", "you would after the conclusion of the interviews just as the pare yeah we wouldn't have to the decision with regard to the community path", "we had a subsequent meeting didn't we i think we did", "okay", "i think we'd have to right right and pa so we can ask susan to send out a meeting notice that week if you want", "i won't be here but", "we'll interview the two and we'll rank them and we'll have to meet to discuss and vote", "jessica can convene your meeting", "i thought you we're we were trying to be careful about making certain that she led this effort which is she is leading this effort that was my point", "i'm not here so we'll have susan", "and jessica said that", "i mean i'm not here", "i wouldn't be if i was here", "you're not physically in belmont anyway", "all right mike did you have any comments mike widmer town moderator", "by way of context i have done a lot of recruiting in my career", "i ran hr for a major fortune three hundred company for several years", "yup", "and then obviously i've been involved for the last quarter century in municipal affairs state and municipal affairs and so forth", "and so i just want to put in a word for the collins center", "they have done vastly more searches than any company that in massachusetts for this kind of position", "they were the they worked with the town of belmont the last two times", "i was on the search committee that the most recent time that brought david kale here", "and so i worked closely with them and they were superb", "and i know the collins center from my work at mass taxpayers foundation and other capacities", "so they're a thoroughly professional operation", "they served belmont very well in the last two searches", "they're more experienced than any other firm", "and they're probably the cheapest", "so when you put all of that they in the proposal they have a dollar amount in their proposal including a reduction for belmont", "so when you put all of that together i don't know why we would not pick collins center", "and i frankly think it would be a serious mistake if we did not", "okay thank you mike", "appreciate your input thank you", "anything further jessica no that was all i had okay great", "thanks for your efforts", "appreciate it", "please thank glenn jay and brian for their involvement as well", "absolutely", "thank you thank you", "thanks for helping thanks for hanging in there", "you've been here since eight", "it's all good it's my job", "i appreciate it have a great weekend", "you too thank you", "thank you for a second okay", "phyllis discussion related to lottery and keno monitors", "that item has been moved to the agenda for the 26th after the trash discussion oh it has okay", "the informational presentation on the trash is at six until seven thirty", "okay we're moving this item", "george hall will be there to inform us about what's taking place", "i read his memo that's helpful", "yes his memo was that no i understand the litigation is the appeal that's taking place", "right", "before the lottery", "so we're going to expand on that the chair we don't have any information on that other than what you have there has been no discussion by the so the is the discussion on the 26th just about this or is there a broader discussion the discussion on the 26th is also with regard to your consideration that you look at the our current policy as it relates to yeah the policy regarding liquor licensing from the board regarding the lottery sales by license holders who are authorized to sell alcohol", "and then i wanted to and i wanted to revisit the liquor licensing regulations anyway as you noted about requiring that people be paid applicants be paid up with the town and the light department and that the notice for provision i know this is your area so but this is the lottery sales for places that have liquor", "it's just one of several things i know i think we really need to look at it", "i know that we've gotten what's the gentlemen from the michael sweeney yes you had expressed a lot of concern about our decisionmaking on that so", "right and when he appeared before you in april your commitment was that you would respond to him with regard to your policy discussions by the end of june", "and i don't think the monitors are tied to liquor licensing", "after town meeting", "it's separate issues perhaps", "they are in our minds yes", "yeah yeah", "exactly", "okay", "so based on your commitment to give a response to them with regard to the lottery sales in by those establishments that have liquor licenses you had committed that you would get back to him by the end of june after town meeting", "and so we're trying to get this on the 26th before you so that you can okay all right", "at least have more information to them would it be possible i don't know if you mind if it would be possible to get a to draft or have george hall or whoever would draft the revised regulations for the liquor to add the lottery language", "so at least we have something in front of us", "um sure", "or strike the prohibition or whatever the lan whatever the language would be", "i don't think we have specific pro", "i don't think it's in the regulations i think it was yeah it wasn't", "a consideration by the board of selectmen", "it was just a board consideration", "i thought it was in the rules", "i thought it was in the liquor rules that you couldn't", "all right well therein lies another issue but all right", "you know and i think you're right adam", "i think you know part of i mean to me the frustration i've had with our licensing process is that it's a lot of distraction and perhaps that's fine but we seem to just have you know we came up with this position and appointed you just as part of a meeting and then it became somewhat you know that's the condition we're going to apply even though it's not part of any regulation", "right right it's like we've been applying that you have to be paid up with the town but it's not written in the rules in any way", "and i think it has to be", "yeah and i think you had suggested and i support this that we need to do a rewrite on that to provide more guidance to the licensing board that serves the board of selectmen serving as the licensing board in terms of how we award liquor licenses", "yeah it's like the committee appointment rules too", "find it in other communities and somerville in particular they have specific rules oh yeah", "they've got a book on the rules", "i'm not suggesting we go to that extreme but but we need something more formal", "yeah yeah yeah absolutely", "great", "you have a comment no i just shivered i got cold all of a sudden", "like eighty out", "okay so", "so under the ten yes submit it so you can look at that", "we will have a copy thank you phyllis", "of the regulations in the book", "i think that the follow up was with regard to updating the lottery with i know they're very concerned", "on our process on the considerations about that particular matter with regard to them and there is still work needed to be done with regard to the regulations", "i know that that's an issue for all of you", "if you want to send it to me i could mark it up", "so it's the current regulation there's an expansion of awarding license component that you're going to look at perhaps adam but is there a more immediate decision on the moratorium we've placed on retail sales of alcohol and not selling tobacco and lottery i don't think the tobacco plays into it", "do we need the regulations in place and vote on that before we can reconsider that position or can we reconsider that position and then put the regulations in place we could do it", "we could do it piecemeal if there's a time consideration on the lottery piece which it sounds like there is from the state level", "we could certainly if we decided to undo the prohibition on liquor establishments also selling lottery tickets the tobacco we're going to leave that prohibition in place i would assume", "and then we could go back and revisit some of the other stuff i've been talking about", "i'm less concerned about the tobacco prohibition than i am about the lottery", "or we could go back and do it all together", "yeah okay", "so i think that the intent was that you would get back to them and then there would still be a need to make adjustments prior to making a change allowing those establishments to resume or elect to have the with lottery how can we do that i think what george had suggested to you when this came up before was that it would be something that you would make the decision on", "and then the implementation could take place in december when the renewals came before you", "and that that's when that would allow establishments to know how they would want to consider this for their business", "as we renew the licenses", "i think that makes sense", "then the state would also know that we'd taken some action even though the implementation might have to wait a little bit", "right", "all right and i think you could tell the state if they asked that we're committing to take this issue up", "i mean i've been trying to get it on the agenda for a while so right yeah i mean it's just the town meeting sort of has taken a lot of our time", "yes it's an evolved process so", "excuse me phyllis did you say that these agenda items will be for june twenty six yes at seven hundred and thirty got it", "on the agenda that's been posted", "got it", "okay", "a report in so i just wanted to mention also on monday there we're going to be looking at asking you to look at the there's a loading zone", "there are loading zones on leonard street and they are currently posted for dual usage", "i saw that it's not working", "which is yeah", "what's the plan we thought that was a good plan and thirty tickets given out in a month that's a lot", "we talked about this in our last one of the meetings we're having some glitches", "what do we do the loading zone that was a wonderful idea because we can't have trucks doubleparking on leonard street we're not going back to that so we're gonna discuss that on the 19th", "i won't be here you know that", "i know", "but we discussed that at one of the meetings we had at the high school about just making it but we didn't do about that", "we didn't vote on it but make it just a loading just make it a loading zone no parking period so there's no confusion", "that was the suggestion", "yeah", "double parking trucks on leonard street is not the solution", "i would just throw my two cents in because i won't be here on monday", "so the so that item is coming for you to consider having that just be a loading zone so adam you think that and i agree that i know it reduces two spots right is it two spots something like that", "having a loading zone having it painted that no parking at all", "so it's clear", "it's clearly load because the problem is we're trying to make it every give please everybody and it's pleasing nobody what i'd suggest as well phyllis is if it's the loading zone then it's the loading zone which means that it's the only place you unload", "i think that is the concern", "and that's why there are people who are frustrated because they parked there and they you have to have enforcement by the police of trucks that double park anywhere on leonard street during the day", "it has to be zero tolerance", "that's an excellent point", "please pass that along", "i know what they're doing their best and you know i'm not suggesting they're not doing this but it can't be any sort of consideration", "oh i'm just dropping something off", "if a truck double parks they get a ticket", "i mean if yeah if if you're i think the point being if we're going to give up permanently two parking spaces for loading then that's where they doublepark they get they have to load a ticket", "i don't care if it's five minutes they get a ticket", "i think it's confusing to people", "and so we thought it was a good idea it's confusing to people that park there but not to the trucks", "the merchants should be telling their vendors that there is a loading zone and you have to unload then", "i don't know why they have to come in the middle of the day or you know when there's a lot of traffic", "come early in the morning or late at night and unload in the loading zone", "that's it yeah", "i've seen trucks there double parking when i'm out there", "it has to stop", "okay so phyllis i'm fine with what you're recommending but i won't be here on monday", "well it's going to come yeah", "yeah well if the recommendation is to move towards just a straight loading zone", "straight loading zone we're asking you to consider that", "i would support that", "but after we paint it and all that other you know", "right yeah", "oh yeah whatever regulations require", "absolutely", "anything else okay", "no we talked about the committees", "i think that's it", "that it thank you", "we have minutes", "i don't think any boarder selectman", "i can't vote on them because they're prior to my time", "then let's wait", "on the liaison report i don't have anything", "i was hoping to have something today", "i don't know where we are on the cpiac and the community path and whether there are public meetings that are coming up", "i know they they said they were gonna come back to the selectmen with their options in the summer", "and i guess here we are", "i'll follow up with them and have a report out in the next meeting i will be at in terms of cpiac in terms of you know where we stand", "yeah", "i think they're sort of turning coming at the middle of all of our activity around town meeting got in the middle of sort of trying to continue to move that forward", "so we that is one of the things we carry on your agenda and we'll we to keep it in front of us", "yup", "and so we will try and schedule a time when it's valuable to have an update by them", "okay cool", "to let you know did you want to speak about oh i've done two the belmont high school building committee we met yesterday", "and we've been talking about updating getting the website live", "there's going to be a new website for the high school building committee to inform the public so they can see where we are and to be a place to post news and updates and plans as we get them", "and that will be coming up live shortly", "probably in the next few weeks", "we talked about outreach and pr and having public meetings to gather information", "we're also i'm working with the opm", "we got our rankings they interviewed them", "there was a subcommittee that's interviewing the architects and they came in and ranked the architects and they knocked out some of them and they have it down to four", "and then the interviews are going to take place", "and then an architect will be chosen", "i think they're looking in the next couple of weeks to wrap that up", "yeah the msba convened their board their meeting earlier this week tuesday", "and that's how the we have three designees who are on that group of with twelve representatives from the msba", "so pretty much the msba", "what is their does hiring their architect makes sense when are final winner configuration decisions finally made well that's going to be part of the whole feasibility study which once we get the architect on board then the feasibility study gets done", "what is the timeframe you're away there are all these modules from the state", "i don't remember from the msba", "they're all dictated deadlines", "okay", "the feasibility study will have to require all three grade configurations that were in the pot the enrollment report that you had signed when you were chair", "and then there were will also be three configurations within each of those to look at", "renovation renovation and and then there'd be a final recommendation by the the building committee to msba in terms of configuration at some point postfeasibilitystudy the feasibility study is due within a timeframe prescribed by the msba", "so there're gonna be nine configurations basically that we're gonna have based on three grade configurations and then three configurations as to whether it's a renovation renovation and addition or total rebuild of a new building", "so and those all three of those are for each of the grade configurations", "so they're gonna be nine evaluations to do and then evaluate", "so there's work to be done", "and then also the community preservation committee we met also this week and we talked about setting up the public hearings public meetings rather that we're going to be having to get ideas and to find out what people want and to get comment", "and we also i was trying to advocate more for what we're trying and i think the committees likes to do this to outreach more to get a wider range of applications in for community preservation funding so that we have a larger pool to choose from in each of the categories or whether we decide there's an ability to rather just pool save some of the money each year rather than spend it all", "and there seems to be some desire to do that", "i know we talked about that in the warrant committee as well", "that just because we have the cpa money we don't have to spend all of it every year", "we can save it and then we'll have a big pool when something big comes along that we want to do", "yeah i agree with that", "so i think but those are all things under discussion", "okay", "that was like a lot of work adam", "thank you", "well it's what we ran for right yeah", "anyway anything further all right motion to adjourn", "second", "all in favor", "aye", "thank you phyllis"], "name": ["BOS061617/BOS061617/BOS_061617_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "BOS061617/BOS061617/BOS_061617_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "BOS061617/BOS061617/BOS_061617_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "BOS061617/BOS061617/BOS_061617_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "BOS061617/BOS061617/BOS_061617_DOT_flac_00004.flac", "BOS061617/BOS061617/BOS_061617_DOT_flac_00005.flac", "BOS061617/BOS061617/BOS_061617_DOT_flac_00006.flac", "BOS061617/BOS061617/BOS_061617_DOT_flac_00007.flac", "BOS061617/BOS061617/BOS_061617_DOT_flac_00008.flac", "BOS061617/BOS061617/BOS_061617_DOT_flac_00009.flac", "BOS061617/BOS061617/BOS_061617_DOT_flac_00010.flac", "BOS061617/BOS061617/BOS_061617_DOT_flac_00011.flac", "BOS061617/BOS061617/BOS_061617_DOT_flac_00012.flac", "BOS061617/BOS061617/BOS_061617_DOT_flac_00013.flac", "BOS061617/BOS061617/BOS_061617_DOT_flac_00014.flac", "BOS061617/BOS061617/BOS_061617_DOT_flac_00015.flac", 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-{"audio_document_id": "Communit1959.flac", "identifier": "Communit1959", "text_document_id": "Communit1959.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [12170, 6373, 9270, 7320, 8043, 15663, 19443, 7463, 4370, 5033, 8483, 5230, 3910, 3083, 14633, 10393, 8610, 3220, 4640, 2360, 1790, 3370, 11230, 5590, 9193, 6780, 2520, 7460, 2390, 18663, 7660, 8743, 23750, 17963, 20473, 6090, 8033, 22133, 16913, 5000, 4250, 12440, 15863, 2700, 9690, 4893, 22963, 4070, 17823, 10503, 6703, 12343, 11550, 3270, 4603, 2610, 7960, 7130, 11020, 6670, 3533, 4770, 1710, 17880, 9260, 2993, 4340, 4263, 2533, 4663, 4117, 7480, 6250, 14453, 6890, 19363, 12930, 17240, 6080, 5063, 11353, 9103, 13320, 5843, 16300, 3490, 4320, 9973, 3970, 9657], "label": ["once the land seemed inexhaustible the whole vast sweep of the american continent three million square miles of the richest land on earth", "a land of quiet main streets rolling farm lands plains forests and mountains", "a land with elbow room with unlimited space for our towns our cities and our people to grow", "but within a single generation we have learned a hard lesson that the land is a limited resource", "just as the air can be polluted water supplies wasted so our land can be dissipated and despoiled", "today the land surrounding our metropolitan areas is being swallowed up at the rate of one million acres a year by factories shopping centers highways housing developments and more housing developments", "how did it happen in the span of a single generation what can be done to reverse the tide and preserve the land how did it happen let's examine the typical metropolitan area of the 1920s just a generation ago", "here at the heart of the city a concentration of shops business offices hotels apartments factories", "farther out pleasant middle income residential areas", "rapid transit lines fanning out in a half dozen directions to the city limits", "a few miles beyond a ring of sleepy little towns that housed local tradespeople and upperincome businessmen from the city", "each suburban town had its own government its own community services", "there was no overall planning agency for the area", "no one foresaw the need for such an agency", "neither the city nor its satellites prepared for change because none of them expected change not even when the family car arrived on the american scene in a big way bringing new homes new families to the suburban fringe", "depression halted that first tenant of expansion throughout the 1930s and world war two brought housing construction to a standstill for first half of the 1940s", "then they came back from the war fifteen million gis clamoring for new homes and a piece of land in the country", "almost overnight suburbia was born", "a half million homes sprang up around the country in one thousand nine hundred and forty six", "nearly a million in one thousand nine hundred and forty seven", "a million in one thousand nine hundred and forty eight", "still more in one thousand nine hundred and forty nine one thousand nine hundred and fifty", "the empty farm lands the quiet towns and villages surrounding the city found themselves in the midst of a roaring housing boom new developments on every hand", "some wellplanned welldesigned blending naturally into the terrain", "some seemed to have been thrown together in monotonous rows as the project builders raced to keep up with the demand for more and more homes", "where the families moved the trade and service facilities followed and the factories moved with them", "land costs soared everywhere", "the old rule of thumb that land represents ten of the cost of house and lot went by the boards", "the ratio climbed to fifteen", "in some places to twenty and more squeezing hard on the limited budgets of home buyers and the builders moved farther and farther out in search of good development land bypassed expensive or difficult terrain leaving undeveloped islands behind them", "wherever the new subdivisions went they created problems for the unprepared communities of the new suburbia", "more taxes for more and more schools roads sewer and water lines more of everything to service the swelling population", "the hardpressed communities finding themselves in a new environment of metropolitanization looked for a remedy in their only weapon control of the land through zoning and subdivision ordinances throwing up in effect a chinese wall of restrictive regulations to halt or slow down the incoming tide of new housing", "zoning laws originally designed to police the use of land were contrived to raise higher and higher the minimum size of lots to prevent the building of the lower cost homes that were most desperately needed to keep the invaders on the other side of the wall", "the combination of genuine financial need and the desire to preserve a countrylike atmosphere not to become citified together with a certain amount of snobbery led to a shifting of payment for many community services from the municipality to the new home buyer through the subdivision developer", "larger lots wider streets waste where conservation is needed", "up goes to the cost of local government paid by the new home buyer and all taxpayers", "where do we go from here is the extension of the urban sprawl that now besets our metropolitan centers the best or even the only means of proceeding or are there more intelligent more effective means of channeling and guiding the immense new increases in population all forecasts say will surely occur", "to illustrate the magnitude of the problem if the new york metropolitan area continues to grow at present rates and under present large lot zoning regulations by one thousand nine hundred and eighty five all the land within fifty miles will be built up", "the united states population now stands at one hundred and eighty five million", "in just five years it will reach two hundred million", "today more than sixty of our people live in urbanized areas and an estimated ninety of future growth will take place in those same metropolitan areas", "so perhaps it is time to pause and take stock to look ahead to the needs of the future to consider new approaches to the use of our land perhaps to reexamine some discarded concepts", "the picture is not entirely black", "there are stirrings of hope in many areas where thoughtful planners architects builders developers are at work on the problems of the land", "cooperation is growing among the varied elements of our metropolitan areas", "the national association of home builders and the urban land institute have joined forces to study land planning concepts and new ideas that could be applied to residential use of land to see what can be done to preserve the values of a countrylike atmosphere while accommodating necessary growth in an effective development pattern", "government and private groups concerned with the problem have lent their support", "the study has produced scores of ideas but no final answers except to demonstrate the need for more and more research but already it has spotlighted major areas that show promise for the future that merit further exploration", "one such area is the largescale planned unit development where the basic planning unit is the integrated community instead of the individual lot", "here the development of a given area is planned from the very beginning as a balanced community", "detached homes townhouses highrise apartments shopping centers schools parks and play areas", "the planned unit development provides for variety in design in building densities in family income levels in family sizes", "it meets overall zoning requirements", "individual lots are not straitjacketed into rigid sizes", "another is the cluster method", "here the homes are grouped close together around access courts leaving the remainder of the tract in its natural state", "here again the developer and planner are concerned with overall density rather than individual lot sizes", "the cluster offers relief from the familiar monotony of the standard tract development makes possible economies through concentration of utilities and street improvements", "the cluster permits the use of rough wooded terrain that often could not be developed conventionally", "wooded and park areas are preserved for community use", "still another approach to better land use might be found in the townhouse", "nothing really new here", "it's the old row house that fell into disfavor years ago because poor designed illplanned grouping made it a monotonous eyesore on our city streets but ingenuity imagination and skilled design can restore dignity and attractiveness to the townhouse", "service features on the street side living areas and terraces opening on a fenced yard or garden or a common open space in the rear", "economical effective use of the land", "there are many ways to use the land in better fashion than we have", "better uses of the culdesac to break up the rigid subdivision pattern", "separate pedestrian and auto traffic", "loop streets and circular streets", "but the chinese wall remains", "the new concepts and innovations demand for their success a new kind of thinking in our zoning boards", "greater flexibility a recognition of the need for diversified communities", "they demand vastly improved subdivision regulations that will meet the actual needs of the land and the people that will relate the kind cost of land improvements to the building sites and their intended use", "new methods of land usage may be more attractive than the old practices that have wasted so much of our land", "in the planner's eye they may be essential but what of the costs are they within our reach detailed research is needed into the comparative costs of new and conventional methods in terms of street frontage water and sewer lines maintenance of municipal services", "and what of the legal problems that inevitably accompany change the innovator who seeks a new use for the land is often caught in a maze of local complexities that can frustrate his every move", "overall reform of our land use practices demands a thorough legal analysis to determine the best procedures for resolving such questions as the use of easements maintenance of common areas frontage on nondedicated streets and many many others", "finally there must be public acceptance of new ideas in the marketplace", "the planner's brightest dream must come to nothing if it meets with public rejection", "broad market research is essential to measure the degree of acceptance for variations from the traditional pattern of community development to determine local and regional preferences", "planning alone is not the final answer to the crisis of our land but without wise and farsighted planning there can be no answers", "how wisely or wastefully we use the heritage of our land is not solely the responsibility of the planner the developer the builder the community official", "it is a responsibility of all of us who are the american community", "in many places across the country individual builders architects planners are putting the new ideas to work pioneering better uses of the land but we have made only a beginning", "our research must be broadened and deepened", "it must reach into new and untried areas", "the effort will be costly and it will require the active and continuing participation of all elements of the community", "but in the end all will benefit", "in better homes better communities a better america as our heritage to the future"], "name": ["Communit1959/Communit1959/Communit1959_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "Communit1959/Communit1959/Communit1959_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "Communit1959/Communit1959/Communit1959_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "Communit1959/Communit1959/Communit1959_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "Communit1959/Communit1959/Communit1959_DOT_flac_00004.flac", "Communit1959/Communit1959/Communit1959_DOT_flac_00005.flac", "Communit1959/Communit1959/Communit1959_DOT_flac_00006.flac", 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-{"audio_document_id": "Fishfrom1945_2.flac", "identifier": "Fishfrom1945_2", "text_document_id": "Fishfrom1945_2.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [2500, 2800, 4780, 5207, 5103, 3970, 3370, 1470, 1180, 1820, 10730, 6100, 3341, 4902, 5943, 2333, 9420, 4310, 2660, 1523, 2530, 3203, 6088, 3999, 2960, 1390, 1605, 4555, 7290, 4580, 2740, 3300, 4873, 3360, 12870, 7960, 13494, 16016, 5013, 1305, 2200, 1730, 5980, 1943, 3260, 3050, 2800, 3533, 833, 1377, 2930, 1220, 2760, 1630, 2370, 1700, 2370, 8933, 3603, 8520, 9110, 3840, 6290, 2970, 1730, 6090, 5392, 6018, 3540, 6640, 2290, 2580, 2610, 11650, 5050, 2080, 2733, 1810, 2710, 7090, 3950, 1633, 1060, 6480, 1350, 6933, 9610, 2030, 2820, 3600, 4447, 8000, 3400, 3763, 3180, 3840, 860, 910, 1860, 1450, 2710, 14117, 3923, 2430, 910, 1613, 5201, 1973, 3940, 2803, 2007, 3563, 4823, 1527, 3883, 7143, 1340, 3180, 2283, 4223, 8303, 900, 10520, 2200, 6870, 2383, 9143, 10580, 8010, 1367, 13493, 9600, 4930, 3090, 1113, 3250, 2140, 1320, 5850, 3600, 5220, 8283, 2760, 6870, 2060, 2513, 4021, 8610, 2710, 10580, 1450, 5900, 2833, 880, 1250, 4038, 9616], "label": ["might've been a lot of worse at that", "but the spirit of adventure is unquenched", "the crew of her fishing smack brings news of giant octopus nearby", "can't afford to miss a chance to photograph one of this elephant spiders of the ocean floor", "the diver is going to try and locate the octopus and pose him for the camera", "the ocean floor is a dream world", "silent dark mystic unreal", "lonely beyond words", "a beauty that haunts one", "a majesty all its own", "inhabited by strange weird creatures like this great sea anemone so named because it looks like the windflower", "you've seen little ones on the rocks at low tide long tentacles like the petals of a lovely flower", "but when touched they close up into a compact ball", "like the giant ray it lives by scooping in its prey and sucking it to pieces", "now watch how quickly the fish that our boys throw down is enclosed in that living sepulcher", "but the study period is rudely interrupted", "the cameraman ever on the watch sees a great hammerhead shark circling above too close behind the diver for safety", "must get him up and destroy the menace so everybody takes a hand", "well this shark business is getting on their nerves", "they spoil all the fun", "the shark family takes many queer forms", "the hammerhead is about the strangest and one of the most dangerous", "the barb and heavy line don't do the trick fast enough so the captain puts a few slugs of lead into him", "but even that doesn't stop a shark unless by chance it happens to sever the spinal column", "well alright diver", "we've got him out of the way", "let's go", "you know this diver's rig isn't the easiest thing in the world to handle", "moving isn't hard but progress is retarded like a slowmotion picture because of the water resistance", "in this submerged world queer unreal lights play across the ocean floor", "strange fish peer out of unexpected corners", "forests of gently undulating seaweed", "gaudy shells which at the touch of the diver's foot become animate and scuttle away", "the camera can look so much farther afield", "merciful powers what's this eerie shape there it is look out octopus the crawling irresistible slimy deathdealing monster of the sea floor", "and he's behind the diver there's no phone in his helmet his power under warning", "what a chance he takes good man make him see oh strange indeed are the wonders of the eight great immensely powerful arms each with its two rows of deadly suckers", "ooh look out that slithering death is right on you he'll crush your bones into jelly look out boy look out quick now quick the helmet and boots are too heavy", "get out of them get out of there oh thank goodness", "oh", "well let's call this fella names too", "he deserves to be sworn at", "you old cephalopod that's you octopus punctivus accent on the punk", "say that was a close call", "three days out from acapulco dragged offshore by a good tug", "refitted restocked everybody happy and raring to go", "the only thing that couldn't be replaced was a diver's rake", "that's probably decorating the parlor of some mermaid by now", "hello", "there's something that looks interesting", "huh interesting i should say it is", "big news", "what the newspaper man would call a whale of a story", "this is a real whale", "one hundred and twenty feet long", "whales are strange creatures", "mammals originally land animals", "there she blows they're warmblooded breathing air by lungs having babies not eggs and nursing them with milk", "their greatest enemy is the swordfish a monster mackerel", "and there goes one now straight for the whale's vulnerable belly he goes", "through ages of poking into other peoples business this fella's nose has lengthened out until in big fish it attains a length of five or six feet", "sharp enough to drive straight through the bight of a small", "what a schnoz what a schnoz the swordfish is without doubt the gamest fish that swims the ocean", "he goes after whales like a terrier after a ball", "it's instinct of course", "often a swordfish will charge a ship and drive his snout into the flanking until it breaks shorn off", "imagine what it must do to a fish even one with so tough a hide as the whale", "what a fight what a fight the swordfish has all the advantage of quicker turning sharper weapons", "the whale's only defense is his mighty tail", "one clean blow with that twoton sledge and even this terrific stabber would be put out of commission", "but the swordfish rolled with the punch", "now they spar for a moment at long range", "and back goes the old stabber", "caesar's ghost what a battle threw him clean out of the ocean friends no one has ever been lucky enough to photograph any such quite as this before", "but the race is not always to the swift nor is the battle always to the strong", "remember david and goliath", "oh this is terrible leviathan in range", "dangerously wounded", "well there can be only one end to this fight", "our boys decide to put the gallant old monster out of his misery for this attack might go on for days", "remember this whale weighs not less than one hundred and twenty tons", "there's a lot of him to die", "this is risky work", "takes nerve to go in under those terrifically slapping tails and put a harpoon into the poor old beaten monster", "but they're going to do it", "now zam this new irritation sends the giant off on a new tack", "up he comes and out he goes look out for sharks boy poor old whale", "what a tragedy of the sea", "how many time this happens no one will ever know", "there isn't always a camera so handy to record the battle", "and even when our boys have captured the whale the villain still pursued her", "they signal a commercial whaler way off to leeward as there's no hope of salvaging the valuable oils and fats of the huge windfall", "they tell her to come arunning before the prize collapses and sinks", "once the breathing ceases the huge body can no longer stay afloat", "the whaler's fish captain gets ready his harpoon gun", "a svend foyn gun invented by a scandinavian of that name", "come on men come on", "get it over with", "the poor devil's dying", "the same old story", "we must be cruel only to be kind", "now and all the while they're towing in the gigantic captive the harpy is still battening on his entrails", "this christmas present is worth at least three thousand to the whaler", "now get the air line out boys", "pump in the air", "don't let him sink now", "ooh look at those great gaping wounds made by that demon of a swordfish", "fish from hell that's what you are", "you certainly had a lot of nerve tackling the big strong feller", "six hundred pounds against two hundred and forty thousand", "now they're pumping him full of air", "ooh what a mess you made of it you", "but the boys say we'll give you a break mr schnozzle", "we're going out and get you", "get you with a rod and reel that oughtta be some sport", "yes sir when you talk about thrills this game of fighting the monster swordfish with a rod and line certainly takes the pennant", "i say watch", "we're going to show you a most unusual camera shot", "it's like a fish eye view of things", "now look underneath the boat and see the propeller in action", "now anybody who hasn't a firm grip on his emotions had better not look anymore for something's going to happen around here and i don't mean maybe", "there he goes", "you old boys who can remember the thrill that came when first you felt a tug at the cork on your line in the old mill pond when a sixounce perch grabbed your worm", "maybe you can picture this thrill", "six hundred pounds or so of the fightingest maddest fish that ever snapped a hook is out there on the end of that slapping line", "but the reel's singing its protest", "bring him up bring him up bring him up reel him reel him if he doubles on that line you'll lose him wrists of iron are certainly needed for this work", "great catfish what a leap whoa another mad leap take up the slack", "take it up take it up quick now up he goes again don't let him trick you mister", "don't let him trick you", "now what a mighty surge that was to carry a quarter of a ton of fish clear out of the water when i say the swordfish was game now it's settled down into a battle of wits", "how would you like to run a handbook on this event the fish knows that his only chance is to leap and turn in the air and crank afoul of the line so that he can double back on it and snap it off", "how does he know it well how does he know how to swim in the first place instinct", "the primal instinct of all created things", "selfpreservation", "there he goes again impossible you say well there it is", "the camera can't lie", "but he's a desperate thing", "a blackhearted scoundrel of course but you've got to hand it to him for the fighting spirit", "yes sir this is a real battle", "oh that leap surpasses them all", "and to think that this little trifling line is expected to control such a stupendous battering ram as the swordfish has proved himself to be", "it's just one desperate leap after another", "and each time the human adversary must be on his hold ready to reel in to slack off to play this brute as you would a mountain trout", "but he's got to end sometime", "he's bound to tire himself out at that rate", "it looks to me as if he's just about shot his bolt now", "steadily slowly patiently but relentlessly the captor is bringing the floundering demon closer and closer to the boat", "ah this is going to be something else again boys", "it's all well enough to hook him and play him in close but what kind of man is this who thinks he can gaff this demon don't lose him feller don't lose him dig in your toes boy", "get your heels under a seat", "stick to him boy stick to him slip stick it over now heave away oh oh oh", "afraid you're going clean out of your class old chap", "now you've got him again", "put a twitch on his nose", "ride him cowboy run him up by his heels", "schnoz or no schnoz no durn fish that ever swum can get the best of me whoopee and that is that"], "name": ["Fishfrom1945_2/Fishfrom1945_2/Fishfrom1945_2_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "Fishfrom1945_2/Fishfrom1945_2/Fishfrom1945_2_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "Fishfrom1945_2/Fishfrom1945_2/Fishfrom1945_2_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "Fishfrom1945_2/Fishfrom1945_2/Fishfrom1945_2_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "Fishfrom1945_2/Fishfrom1945_2/Fishfrom1945_2_DOT_flac_00004.flac", "Fishfrom1945_2/Fishfrom1945_2/Fishfrom1945_2_DOT_flac_00005.flac", "Fishfrom1945_2/Fishfrom1945_2/Fishfrom1945_2_DOT_flac_00006.flac", "Fishfrom1945_2/Fishfrom1945_2/Fishfrom1945_2_DOT_flac_00007.flac", "Fishfrom1945_2/Fishfrom1945_2/Fishfrom1945_2_DOT_flac_00008.flac", "Fishfrom1945_2/Fishfrom1945_2/Fishfrom1945_2_DOT_flac_00009.flac", "Fishfrom1945_2/Fishfrom1945_2/Fishfrom1945_2_DOT_flac_00010.flac", 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-{"audio_document_id": "FromtheG1954.flac", "identifier": "FromtheG1954", "text_document_id": "FromtheG1954.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [7712, 10140, 1613, 12603, 7730, 4813, 3573, 15743, 5186, 5820, 2950, 6350, 2534, 11002, 8643, 5613, 6710, 6350, 3533, 3644, 6179, 6010, 4713, 10950, 9483, 10590, 6310, 2403, 6120, 8993, 3420, 853, 7553, 9550, 6663, 9103, 6570, 7410, 5980, 4130, 4430, 1393, 7133, 6400, 7673, 6680, 4913, 5404, 3873, 3240, 4090, 6259, 18453, 2533, 8723, 3353, 9123, 2010, 2970, 4003, 9103, 9190, 4573, 7167, 4470, 5173, 3014, 4014, 2570, 7143, 5810, 4973, 4580, 2593, 12470, 2383, 7093, 3810, 10750, 2053, 4015, 5920, 8540, 10673, 7603, 4710, 7470, 2220, 6620, 8223, 6720, 2250, 2923, 7143, 7173, 4698, 1835, 2420, 4255, 5640, 4680, 2982, 4660, 4660, 7371, 17833, 6063, 4553, 4320, 5170, 3371, 19175, 2153, 3340, 2663, 4813, 6020, 6643, 9200, 13043, 6743, 8050, 9493, 3973, 6863, 4222], "label": ["more and more often these days an interesting story is being presented to men and women in homes and offices all over america", "through a booklet facts about vitamins minerals and nutrilite food supplement and the person who presents the story is a member of your own community", "your nutrilite distributor", "the factual story has its beginning in one of the loveliest spots in america approximately one hundred miles east of the city of long beach california or some of america's most beautiful valleys", "here are the tall majestic peaks of the san jacinto mountains tower above one of the richest valleys in the entire west", "acre after acre of apricots and peaches adorn the valley like living jewels", "and here is the rich and hearty green of alfalfa", "many years ago farmers in this beautiful area found that the soil and climate were ideal for raising the finest alfalfa and only the finest will do here because this is part of one of the famous nutrilite products alfalfa farms", "but it is interesting to see what steps are taken to ensure such a high quality alfalfa", "a very important step is the preparation of a high grade compost to use on the soil", "this machine is called a fox chopper", "after the top alfalfa has been cut for dehydration this machine cuts a further portion of the stalk", "this to be used as part of the compost", "raw materials used in the compost include in addition to the alfalfa cuttings animal manures limestone rock phosphate rock red rock and other mineral compounds", "when the proper ingredients for a compost pile have been assembled they are loaded by this power lift into a specially constructed mixer", "as the materials are spread they are thoroughly mixed to ensure the most uniform decomposition", "after several weeks when the compost has gone through a period of desired decomposition it is turn", "again the natural bacteria found in the various materials start the necessary decomposition", "and in several more weeks these piles of compost are ready for use", "during these processes the compost is kept moist at all times", "when the compost is ready for use it is deposited in liberal amounts on the alfalfa field", "the compost is used in conjunction with hybrid earthworms cultivated at the nutrilite farms", "the earthworms aerate the soil and help to work the compost into the ground", "the effectiveness of the compost as a fertilizer is shown by the quality and size of a fruit and flowers at the nutrilite farms which have been grown with this specially prepared mixture", "after being cut and thoroughly composted the fields are irrigated by overhead sprinklers and each field is thoroughly watered twice between cutting", "good soils special composts proper irrigation sunshine and fresh air produce this top grade alfalfa now ready for dehydration", "when coming for dehydration nutrilite products takes only the upper few inches of the plant", "the remainder is then cut for the compost pile", "as the alfalfa is harvested it is carried up by the conveyor belt and dropped into a wagon", "thus the alfalfa is cut gathered and loaded in one operation without touching the ground and is correctly taken from a field to the dehydration area", "the process of dehydration is an interesting one", "let's follow it", "the fresh alfalfa is put into this chopper and is cut into pieces small enough to ensure quick easy and efficient dehydration", "the chopped alfalfa is then carried mechanically to this tray loader which spreads the alfalfa on trays evenly and in the right amount", "workmen then load the trays into a drying rack and check to make sure the trays are properly loaded for dehydration", "as the racks of fresh alfalfa are put into the dehydrator racks of alfalfa which have been the hydrated under rigidly controlled temperature are removed", "when the dehydrated alfalfa is removed from the dehydrator it is emptied into a large hopper", "it then goes through the hammer mill to bring it to a flower like fineness and is poured from the hoppers into barrows", "the select watercress and parsley which are contained in nutrilite food supplement are processed here in the same manner", "when a barrow is full it is weighed and the weight recorded", "and at the same time the container is flushed with a harmless inert gas", "the barrow is then sealed", "the purpose of the inert gas is to displace air which has an oxidizing effect on the alfalfa watercress and parsley meal", "the number put on this barrel is one of the steps of constant control quality control", "this is but one of the accurate records kept even long after the finished product has been eaten possibly at some far distant point", "the alfalfa watercress and parsley meal is now ready for the next phase in the long nutrilite process", "sealed numbered and recorded the containers are sent by truck to the processing plant", "buena park california is a thriving community some twenty miles northeast of long beach", "here in buena park is the home of nutrilite products incorporated", "the nutrilite plant is large and modern", "the scope of activity here is indicated by the amount of space required", "so that many phases of a nutrilite operation may be performed within the confines of this one area", "the size of this storage building gives us an idea of the activities of the entire plant materials used in compounding nutrilite are stored here until the nutrilite control laboratory has checked and approved their quality and potency to ensure that they meet the high standards set by nutrilite products", "this building is the extraction laboratory", "only carl rehnborg and his immediate assistants are admitted to this building where these exclusive extraction processes are a closely guarded secret", "here is produced the exclusive nutrilite concentrate", "this is a concentrate chemically and mechanically extracted from alfalfa watercress parsley and yeast and is found only in nutrilite food supplement", "you should meet carl rehnborg", "he is the man who developed nutrilite food supplement", "he has devoted many years to study and work in the field of nutrition", "the nutrilite concentrate processed by methods known only to nutrilite and obtainable only in nutrilite products was developed by mr rehnborg", "this is where the nutrilite capsule compound composed of a nutrilite concentrate and added crystalline vitamins and vitamin concentrates is mixed", "all possible care is taken to ensure the highest quality finished product", "the nutrilite concentrate is placed in the mixer together with the added crystalline vitamins and vitamin concentrates in proper proportion", "a harmless inert gas is introduced into the mixture to prevent oxidation", "after thorough mixing and blending the nutrilite compound is ready for encapsulating", "the encapsulating process takes place here", "this machine places empty capsules into a circular metal disk", "the capsules are automatically uncapped", "the machine then fills the lower part of the capsule with the nutrilite compound which has been fed into a hopper on the machine", "this is weighed and the weight and the batch number recorded by the operator", "thus we see another step in the rigid control exercise by nutrilite products", "the filled disk is now returned to the machine for capping of the capsule", "and the finished capsules are ready for packaging", "several times during the processing of each batch samplings are made and an extremely sensitive and delicate scale is used to ensure the correct weight for every batch of material process", "thus more rigid control", "samples also go to the quality control laboratory for analysis to make certain that the nutrilite rigid standards are maintained", "processing of the minerals is also done with great care", "the minerals derived from alfalfa watercress and parsley by nutrilite processes and the added minerals used in nutrilite food supplement are here carefully weighed and measured", "another step in the rigid control", "all the mineral ingredients are placed in this machine and thoroughly mixed", "to ensure a proper consistency the mixture is spread on trays and placed in a drying room", "following the drying process the mixture is placed in an oscillator which sifts the material into a fine granular form ready for tableting", "the mineral mixture is fed into a hopper in the tableting machine and is drawn down onto our revolving plate which contains indentations each of which is filled automatically", "two sets of funders work together to compress the mixture into tablet form under several tons of pressure per square inch", "and here again is further evidence of nutrilite constant control", "throughout this stage of the operation the tablets are sampled frequently and weighed on these very delicate scales", "weight and batch number are recorded", "and samples also go to the quality control laboratory for analysis to assure that the highest standards are maintained", "when it has been determined that the mineral tablets and the vitamin capsules have met the rigid nutrilite requirements both are brought to this room for packaging", "the filled capsules are empty into hoppers from which they are drawn by slotted trays into bottles", "thus the count is automatic", "this operation also permits a last visual inspection", "as the filled bottles move along the line a special machine stuffs cotton into each bottle to ensure a from pack", "to guard against oxidation this machine draws off the air and forces a harmless inert gas into each bottle", "the bottles are then sealed airtight automatically by a machine that firmly affixes the screw cap", "the bottles are now ready for labeling", "here the final operation takes place", "labels are affixed to the bottles mechanically and the bottles are now ready to package", "the mineral tablets are emptied into a hopper and then are fed into automatic counters", "the counter releases the tablet into cellophane bags which are then placed in boxes", "a last visual inspection is made here also", "the bottle of capsules and the box of tablets are packed into one box", "and once again we notice that each is identified with its batch number", "the package is then sealed in cellophane packed one dozen to a carton and the operation at the nutrilite products plant is complete", "from the time the barreled alfalfa watercress and parsley left the nutrilite product farms through the extracting adding of minerals crystalline vitamins and vitamin concentrates measuring boxing and weigh a constant check has been made and a constant control maintained", "headquarters for the complete control plan are the nutrilite product's laboratories also located in buena park", "the activity of the nutrilite laboratories is divided into research and control", "the equipment here is some of the most recently developed and most unique in its field", "the finest and most definitive mineral analysis is ensured by the use of the spectrograph", "invaluable in the type of analysis carried on in the laboratory", "the nutrilite laboratory is not only evidence of the thoroughness and care which is lavished on the preparation of nutrilite food supplement but it is a constant reminder of the unceasing efforts in the direction of further progress in the field of food supplementation made by this highly competent carefully trained staff", "let's return now to the nutrilite plant", "here we have seen the preparation of the nutrilite food supplement", "the ultimate destination of which is your home", "here in long beach california are located the offices of mytinger and casselberry", "mytinger and casselberry incorporated is the exclusive international distributor of nutrilite food supplement", "this building and the large highly trained staff are needed to meet the tremendous demand for nutrilite food supplement", "these young women are handling the correspondence made necessary by the hundreds of thousands of men and women who avail themselves at nutrilite food supplement", "and in turn the entire sales organization was made possible by the founders and chief executives of mytinger and casselberry incorporated mr lee mytinger and dr william casselberry", "these two men provide leadership and inspiration to the many thousands of distributors of nutrilite food supplement", "so we bring to a close the story of the preparation of nutrilite food supplement from its start in the alfalfa fields of a beautiful hemet valley", "through the precise scientific compounding of the nutrilite concentrate and the added crystalline vitamins vitamin concentrates and minerals at nutrilite products incorporate", "through the unceasing research and analysis at the nutrilite laboratory", "through each step of rigid control which assures you have the greatest accuracy and the highest quality", "nutrilite truly a distinguished product among food and supplements"], "name": ["FromtheG1954/FromtheG1954/FromtheG1954_DOT_flac_00000.flac", 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-{"audio_document_id": "IChallengeU_-_Holland_BPW.flac", "identifier": "IChallengeU_-_Holland_BPW", "text_document_id": "IChallengeU_-_Holland_BPW.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [5010, 12550, 8213, 17605, 6420, 10190, 14580, 15680, 6830, 5501, 5835, 3437, 7680, 4558, 10490, 2680, 902, 1003, 5630, 9283, 4303, 2789, 7442, 7128, 13710, 5593, 9800, 5110, 10970, 10140, 4960, 2120, 8310, 10270, 5030, 6160, 2800, 7963, 3440, 5103, 1190, 833, 1320, 12623, 5267, 7491, 24382, 8270, 18810, 9780, 5533, 4210, 8610, 15380, 4010, 11577, 833, 4027, 2330, 3290, 2040, 11870, 10860, 3490, 5717, 1003, 6950, 5983, 12913, 5067, 5640, 2180, 2660, 6930, 2120, 9403, 2040, 6261, 10580, 13320, 2907, 6570, 5790, 68816, 17980, 9230, 21803, 1770, 32120, 1300, 2687, 1220, 11308, 8633, 22533, 7700, 3263, 3460, 43280, 2460, 3630, 1850, 3770, 4840, 833, 833, 7027, 12570, 13950, 27000, 2600, 6303, 24450, 5783, 10103, 4430], "label": ["hello everyone as jason said we are team bpw and we're so happy that you're here", "quick question for you guys how many of you here by show of hands have heard of the lower my bill program okay so most of you like us had never heard of it until we were assigned to the bpw", "so what is the bpw exactly they provide utilities to the city of holland including water electricity and sewage", "our job at the holland bpw was to solve the question of how can we make our homes suck less focusing on the lower my bill program and how to get more people to use this service and we were also given a budget of zero to make this happen", "when we started this program we knew absolutely nothing about the holland bpw so we toured all the facilities there", "the first day we toured the water treatment plant and we learned how the water is sucked in from lake michigan purified and sent to your homes for you to drink take a shower et cetera", "then we toured the wastewater treatment plant and we learned how the water flows into the plant it's purified using primary and secondary treatment and then it's sent out into lake macatawa so it can be reused in the ecosystem", "and then finally we toured the power plant and here we learned how the energy of holland is created and then shipped to your houses and we also learned about a new power plant that they're making in the near future", "from all these tours we learned just how important public works is in holland and how important it is for the community", "so why us we came up with an idea that's crazy enough that it just might work", "so mr tanis here obviously has not used the lower my bill program as you can see", "graciously given back to us by his wife best known to him", "as you can see here mr tanis bills are quite high especially in the month of january", "you must take a lot of showers sharon i'm gonna get you", "mr tanis could have had the inspection done by a qualified inspector who would come into his home and show him exactly where he's wasting money on water and energy", "mr tanis also could have danced", "oh this hurts", "hurry up my job", "mr tanis also could have gotten specific recommendations on how he could fix these things", "mr tannis also save ten a month with just the free items the inspector would have given him", "if mr tannis was willing to invest he could have saved hundreds more per year", "so let me talk a little bit more about the program", "about a thousand dollars is spent advertising this program annually through magazine ads and bill stuffers so it's not mr", "tanis's fault that he didn't use this program since obviously it's hit its maximum capacity of two hundred and thirty households per year", "right well the numbers don't lie in red here are the number of households that have taken advantage of this program each year on the black or the number of evaluations that are available but that go unused each year", "wow that's really sad because this program could help a lot of people people like mr tanis", "so our driving question that the bpw gave us was how do we make our homes suck less and coming in last week monday we wanted to try out this lower my bill program", "so first we had to go onto the bpw website and navigate our way to actually find the program", "and when we found it and the phone number that went with it we called it and that connected us to the community action agency who is partnering with the bpw to perform these audits", "but some of the questions that the receptionist asked could feel intimidating to some people such as age race marital status and income", "she also said it was probably going to be six to eight weeks before we would even get a call back", "luckily that did not happen", "and we received a call from peter the inspector the next day and he was able to perform for us on wednesday this free audit", "so i'd like you to meet peter peter the bpi certified inspector who had contracted through the community action agency and then to the bpw", "but we figured that some people may feel uncomfortable even having peter come into your household", "so we created a website and on this website it has a short bio bio", "peter just explains kind of what this program is", "we also created a short video that allows people to lose some of the fears of it", "oh the service can save you up to one hundred and twenty", "and if you're willing to invest you can save even more like hundreds of dollars", "now that's new", "good afternoon", "hi come on in", "so do you have any questions before we get started yes what will you be doing while we can walk through to see where you would be", "also with my experience i will give you a few tips on where you can save energy in your home", "you just got one hundred and twenty five a lot for free all these cool free gifts", "so how did you end up inspecting that so cheap and easy changes you can make are changing the cfl and led light balls call better windows and using the smart power strip to plug all your devices into some longterm suggestions could be adding more insulation in your walls and buying energy star products", "as you're getting feedback from the bpw they told us a little bit more about the georgetown university energy pipes and our solution could fit into it", "and how how and when the five million prize to them that goes to the winner of this competition how cool would that be it's hung on five million well you might be asking well what is the georgetown university energy price well it's a competition between days all over to see who can be the most energy efficient", "the objectives for this is to see who can foster innovative approaches towards energy efficiency to educate the public and students about energy issues", "and also to increase the usage of energy efficient products and services", "we presented our idea to bpw last wednesday afternoon", "they loved our idea so much that they asked us to present it again the next morning at the georgetown energy prize breakfast and hollands days", "what this is the breakfast with major businesses and how leaders from all over as you can see it's dave coaster the gen the general manager bpw ryan cotton the city manager of holland and kurt dykstra the mayor of holland", "they also loved our idea so much that they wanted to use our campaign", "suck less lend more as a way to get hot and excited about this energy prize and want to win and also if you look in the paper this sunday front page you'll also see this picture", "wait wait wait", "so some plants live more isn't even our solution", "it is the slogan to our campaign", "let me tell you where suck less live more came from", "we loved our driving questions so much", "how can we make our homes suck less two simple words that had so much meaning suck less energy suck less from new environment suck less from my dad's wallet and so on", "we loved it so much we put it on we wanted to put it on a tshirt but we wanted something catchy that everyone wanted to see less is more is what we've been thinking less is more suck less live more that was it", "we decided when we put it on a tshirt and we posted it on twitter", "and what was crazy is that people from the community started to respond to our twitter posts", "i love that shirt", "where can i get one i got one where can i buy one and this leads us to our program", "how can we get lower my bill to be attracted and cause a buzz in our community", "we caused this we did this by changing the perception instead of offering it as a program that is free to everyone we decided to change it into a prize a highly coveted prize that could be won in the form of a raffle", "this raffle consists of the two blobs that come with signs in english and spanish", "that would be in locations in local businesses around the town in holland", "once i kind of we had to prove that this would work", "we did experiment this weekend nicole", "okay so this past weekend we put out the two globes one of them manzo's and one on la providencia at a hispanic grocery store", "and we got five people to sign up", "that's five people interested in winning this prize five times at fifty two weeks in a year that's over the two hundred and thirty audits that peter can provide", "here's a list of local businesses", "we suggested to bpw to contact that they could cycle through the through the year", "so our proposal for a raffle will suck less money on advertising as i mentioned before about a thousand dollars is spent advertising this program through various ways", "it will suck less on the bpw employees time which i'm sure they would love to hear they will if the city of holland commits to sucking less they have a chance at winning an energy price five million prize which would be awesome", "and then the city of holland convinced is sucking less", "they can save the environment for future generations but ultimately it comes down to the consumer", "if they suck less there'll be able to live more but don't just take our word for it", "excited audience cheering suck less live more one question for bpw did you violate something i mean", "we were doing information from your wife so is there any way to like increase the number of audits that could be done to be successful we were thinking about asking the bpw", "it only costs about one thousand five hundred to two thousand to go through the certification process for the bpi certification which is what they need", "so we're thinking maybe if people like love the service so much there's a more expensive version of the service that you can actually buy for about four hundred so if people buy that enough then there'll be able to train someone and then based on how important it is to them like put them on staff", "so they'll be able to do it", "are you entered into the holland entered into this competition already and what's the timetable for that is it entered was it entered how long ago was an entry the competition actually starts on january 1st two thousand and fifteen and it'll go through two thousand and seventeen and they'll have a quarter finalists after the first year and they will move on to the final which is the last year and based on that there were findings from that they'll determine the winner", "great", "so there's time to get this word out", "is that right is that", "the breakfast that we've also presented this to was like kind of to get together like the local businesses and city leaders said kind of get on board about being more energy efficient and want to help out with this", "we'd ask the question always on likelihood of implementation you want to ask it i think they already started even with a zero budget", "so with the zero budget how did we get bribed with these so no seriously though i'm as you are developing marketing pieces without much of a budget what what what did you do to come up with the marketing was here as you come up with we were given a one hundred gift card for this program which we used on the glows and stuff at dollar tree", "also the tshirts were i believe jason then placed an order with ambrose but then it got canceled", "so there was extra money there that we could use for", "yeah so using existing resources to get this rolling", "do you anticipate if people are saying i want these tshirts what do you anticipate how do you anticipate that this is going to take off what do you think you'll need to invest in order to to get these homes audited can can you explain that question well it sounds like one of the people seem pretty darn geeked about getting tshirts and some of these sorts of things i'm wondering i guess a better question would be are you anticipating continuing on marketing with like tshirts and these sorts of things for the stock and if so how much do you think it's gonna cost to put this initiative forward the dpw has already told us that they will be using this campaign and they can sell the shirts on their website", "and they said they were planning on doing that", "so that would raise money for further implementation", "great thank you", "as well holland city also would like their logo back kicks", "they would also like to use these shirts to help kick off the georgetown energy price", "okay cool", "very cool", "what would you going to charge it that's pretty expensive real estate", "what you got on the front that's kind of a it's kind of a funny thing but you know when you when you go down to let's say performance you know performance kinds of things", "and so when you see all the tshirts and every pa he just looking at the back of all the tshirts and everything else and they've got twenty different logos on the back but you know there's a real value the same to be in the back of it", "have you thought about that and how you can raise money through the bpw could get sponsors to be put on the back of their tshirt and then you would have to pay the bpw to be sponsored on the tshirt the surplus is you were mostly trying to tackle the lower my bill but the surplus is pretty broad", "you could almost even use it as like a political statement", "i know i'm not from home but i know the whole powerpoint is something we even hear about outside of the city", "what other initiatives do you think this will be connected to and is the bpw on board with kind of that kind of direction of kind of fulfilling this more than just saying got an audit program well the bar driving question was how can you make our homes suck less and with that they didn't want us to look at more of like a broad thing", "they wanted us to look at more of the lower my bill program that they have and try to get more people use it", "but they could if they were interested in doing so they could use the subclass live more slogan as pretty much an advertisement for any other program", "as well to just bring awareness to what bpw does for our community as well"], "name": ["IChallengeU_-_Holland_BPW/IChallengeU_-_Holland_BPW/IChallengeU_-_Holland_BPW_DOT_flac_00000.flac", 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7557, 5152, 16822, 1790, 2693, 11134, 2538, 2191, 3178, 1534, 3415, 1569, 4373, 9189, 5430, 5933, 5671, 7618, 1863, 4153, 4583, 6490, 3856, 6904, 1572, 3437, 3061, 1845, 4809, 6543, 833, 4616, 5231, 4195, 1616, 833, 4233, 6547, 4924, 3379, 8874, 3812, 1976, 961, 7447, 5960, 2512, 1093, 12955, 7777, 9100, 1992, 3487, 8059, 7298, 5736, 7514, 7226, 2681, 1333, 2771, 2970, 3482, 2708, 4223, 10711, 2146, 5678, 2250, 2426, 4391, 10494, 3909, 6505, 3583, 4870, 6793, 1729, 2335, 5154, 10696, 3317, 2591, 833, 3971, 3541, 8255, 3956, 1752, 8900, 11316, 2677, 5313, 2137, 1741, 10410, 5634, 15674, 7088, 833, 11300, 2107, 6472, 4653, 15738, 1386, 11501, 2861, 6690, 958, 5086, 2597, 12035, 5310, 923, 3444, 3072, 9990, 1985, 16257, 2873, 5789, 7122, 3264, 1075, 6038, 7287, 5187, 1167, 8286, 833, 1231, 1488, 3500, 3333, 1111, 1164, 4334, 833, 5229, 4255, 833, 1611, 5459, 2033, 2441, 833, 1978, 833, 3369, 6101, 3609, 1468, 1015, 2208, 1934, 4601, 4083, 4405, 1000, 6972, 3311, 2363, 9873, 6765, 6563, 2885, 10794, 7584, 4472, 3750, 12072, 2362, 1692, 1083, 5000, 2071, 3900, 4901, 6576, 2155, 833, 4799, 6310, 2634, 3403, 16365, 5396, 2167, 14435, 4338, 4659, 3190, 3259, 3273, 2805, 1326, 6176, 6683, 1706, 1191, 4712, 4223, 5797, 4811, 1658, 11946, 2003, 1801, 2759, 12895, 9026, 6341, 1625, 7747, 4889, 3809, 3029, 3656, 11930, 2833, 2500, 4222, 3598, 5000, 2762, 4210, 4138, 5839, 3211, 2055, 5977, 2657, 4006, 3860, 6331, 6505, 8005, 4583, 1903, 2340, 3735, 6009, 7693, 7993, 9383, 6526, 2488, 10866, 4567, 9123, 2489, 3648, 2371, 4799, 8489, 3987, 6447, 6084, 3071, 5448, 1312, 9247, 1546, 5061, 4258, 1039, 1299, 1649, 5169, 1357, 9135, 7097, 1717, 5034, 3974, 2663, 7885, 1621, 1481, 9519, 3110, 2229, 2589, 4656, 1203, 5079, 3042, 6715, 2425, 2676, 4409, 6994, 2166, 1979, 1552, 3368, 4650, 4335, 2565, 5213, 1510, 2876, 1631, 1660, 3236, 1475, 6789, 2417, 12176, 4826, 1324, 1112, 5598, 1109, 6047, 2446, 7128, 1936, 3737, 6033, 4785, 6041, 15829, 2041, 9378, 3038, 3386, 4427, 4800, 3962, 5878, 22057, 3710, 7325, 1633, 6411, 5257, 8172, 3428, 3574, 1437, 5700, 833, 1833, 20080, 6882, 2489, 833, 2529, 1165, 1401, 4049, 1176, 14797, 4489, 833, 2413, 2167, 1392, 1399, 2533, 1473, 3824, 3541, 5206, 1485, 2597, 2802, 2151, 15231, 6413, 3892, 1098, 1426, 5988, 4058, 3667, 7817, 12375, 3575, 7560, 1663, 8687, 8639, 1687, 833, 1656, 1860, 833, 1367, 3889, 1975, 2743, 12174, 7850, 9003, 833, 15715, 837, 2390, 3768, 1564, 4367, 4753, 3987, 3304, 5952, 1865, 1623, 1053, 1189, 6116, 1208, 1321, 3673, 1001, 1670, 833, 2417], "label": ["welcome i'm dr edmond sakowski and this is let's talk healthy pets", "we're gonna do a kind of a different show today", "it's kind of one of the favorite shows type of shows i like to do", "i'm gonna be the guest actually", "and i'm going to turn the show over to a very special guest host and my close friend rose tenet", "and i do want to we're going to have some interesting topics that we're going to be discussing in this show", "and i do want to give a little bit of a disclaimer information", "there are all the things i'm gonna be talking about that are outside of what we call traditional allopathic medicine", "and i'm not speaking as a medical professional", "i'm giving totally my opinion", "i'm saying to you the audience that you're welcome to investigate what i talk about to run with it to ignore it to talk to the your medical professionals about it", "basically what i'm doing is giving my opinion not advice", "i'm not diagnosing", "i'm not telling you to do what i say to do", "i'm just kind of giving this as information to make you more aware or to enlighten you", "and hopefully you will look into some of the things that we're talking about today", "so with great pleasure", "i turn let's talk healthy pets over to my friend rose", "thank you ed it's so nice to see you again", "i love doing this with you you know one of the things that's so important is good health and whether we're talking about our good health or our pet's good health it's all relatable", "i mean as far as i'm concerned my pet is a part of my family", "so i want us all to be healthy and doing well", "one of the things a lot of people are anticipating right now is some changes some very strong big changes in healthcare and the providing of healthcare in this country", "now i know i had talked to you not too long ago in the summer i was in hawaii and i had to experience firsthand a different kind of government run healthcare system", "and it shocked me because it was difficult to get", "i mean i had someone who told me that i was going in for an xray and they said can you wait we have to plug the xray machine in and wait for it to heat up", "but it's very frightening when it's people that you care about and you're trying to get them good health care and you're having a difficult time finding it", "i remember calling you afterwards and saying oh my gosh the only way i can be sure of of being in good hands is to put myself and my family in my hands and take care of ourselves to make sure we're healthy", "and that's the key that is the key is taking charge of your own health", "yes there are a lot of knowledgeable people out there", "i have the utmost respect for anybody in the medical field", "when you received your training and your education you you it's really intense", "and it takes a lot from you and a lot out of you a great expense on top of that", "and you you learn the systems of the body but then somehow things went to file and you should be in charge of your right arm yourself and be in charge of your health", "why would you turn something over to somebody else and say take care of me it makes no sense to me whatsoever", "you know so how do you take charge of yourself you educate yourself", "and if you look at this new system that's being thrust upon us whether we want it or not right", "which which that alone is an issue", "exactly", "we're giving more control of ourselves and our health and our wellness and our life into the hands of perfect strangers", "they are in the old days your physician knew you", "and you're young enough to remember that they knew who you were", "thank you for saying that", "okay yes", "i'll take that", "people today", "your your physician doesn't know you they see you for three minutes", "a lot of times a physician's assistant sees you in longer", "you know so you don't know the person that's suddenly saying well you need this surgery you need this prescription", "you need this medication you need you know whatever right you know and they're basing everything on a test", "well tests aren't always accurate", "and some of them some of them even though we think they're accurate they're not you look at a person and you ask questions", "what are you eating how are you living what are you doing you know sometimes we do things that abuse ourselves", "you know sometimes we're not eating properly and we're listening to what other people are telling us to eat and what i've come to learn in the years of researching this my approach to all of this rose is i don't well maybe i should tell my story a little bit first", "maybe you should yeah it's a fascinating story", "having a medical degree that i worked hard for and gave up a lot for it", "i bought in into that you know there's i call it now frankenstein medicine and i'm not knocking it", "there are times you need surgery right", "if you have an accident please take me to a trauma hospital you know what i mean they can save your life", "even medications on short term use can save your life", "and i'm certainly not saying don't go to these facilities", "right but what i've come to learn by my own personal experience was that the medical field knows nothing about keeping you alive or keeping you well and making you healthy", "so what happened with me when i had the trauma that i lost my small intestine and so forth they saved my life but had no idea how to keep me alive and basically sent me home to die", "and they said they sent me home and said get your affairs in order you need to wow", "five years over a fiveyear period", "i was seeing three physicians twice a month", "so think about that that's every six days every five days i was going to a physician", "and five years later i walk in into my primary care physician and internist", "and he says to me i can finally tell you every time you came in i thought that was the last time i was going to see you wow", "and that that hit me like running into a wall because here i think i'm doing well", "and according to the standard i wasn't", "he was just waiting for you for me to die basically", "yeah yeah", "and you know and the whole time though what i did was i went outside of what i've been trained to do you know what i call now frankenstein medicine", "we cut it away we sell it back on", "we suppress it you know so it's basically just what they did to create the monster", "so in in television or movies so i took charge of myself and i started started investigating what my body needed to survive", "and at the time i was living off of fluids", "wow", "you know and not eating solid food and for years but i started to investigate supplements and what they did", "so i basically like abraham lincoln learned i learned natural pathic healthcare right on my own by constantly studying", "of course i couldn't do much of anything else", "i had the time to study and i wanted to save my life", "allopathic traditional medicine was not saving it for me", "right", "you know they saved it but they weren't able to make me prosper and develop and be the healthy human being i am now i have restrictions caused by the trauma of the surgery", "and i have a ton of restrictions because my immune system is destroyed", "seventy of your immune system is your intestinal track a healthy intestinal track", "i'm missing half of my small intestine", "i'm missing my tonsils adenoids my appendix all part of your immune system", "i'm missing my gal that's not like this is like a soap opera", "i'm missing my gallbladder", "yeah you starting to sound like a country music song", "i love my wife my dog if i could sing maybe i could and my gallbladder and the gallbladder is important because you can't digest fats without a gallbladder", "right now that you'd take your gallbladder eat what you want", "no you can not eat what you want", "that's right that's totally right", "so so about eighty five of my immune system is gone well", "but do you know me to be sick never never", "you know because these these things that i'm doing that i've learned to do basically on my own and studying studies after study and listening to people talk and taking these bits of pieces and adding them all up together i'm healthier than any physician i know", "and i have all these restrictions and limitations because i support my body", "and certainly this was not a show of faith religion or anything like that", "i firmly believe we have a creative creator and i believe we were created in a certain way when we support that way we prosper", "right", "and i'm living evidence of it", "yeah you really are and as you said you saved your own life", "and i was thinking about how that all relates to do to even animals i mean we're talking about the did we talk enough about the politics of all of this and the money that's involved when you consider the healthcare system as a whole and maybe where it's headed and what we can do ourselves", "well all per surely not going to go into the politics of all", "that's that's probably a years worth of shows", "right", "but the and this is a health show", "so my issue with with what they're doing is first of all you know i wear my seatbelt every day", "i won't get in a car without a seatbelt", "i resent being forced to say that i have to wear my seatbelt all right", "same thing with healthcare i'm forced to buy healthcare insurance", "the model was incorrect", "healthcare insurance is not healthcare insurance", "it should be for the case of trauma or or for for diseases that get out of control", "healthcare is the prevention of disease and there and nowhere in this healthcare format that they have is prevention addressed", "all right and you make a good point", "i can actually relate this", "now what you just talked about in terms of seeking out healthcare and you said if it's an if it's an accident or a it's a life threatening event then naturally you've got to get yourself to a hospital", "case in point i our dog was very sick", "she was motionless she was not responding", "she couldn't get up and walk", "we had no idea what was wrong with her", "so naturally we took her because it's a sunday night we took her to a facility to have her looked at", "now in my opinion they did save her life", "because at that point she was she was exhibiting you know she was septic", "yeah she was septic you know so but the thing is they did help her but it was a very large bill and as you said earlier suppressing so there was medication to suppress it", "we weren't even quite sure what was wrong with this dog", "all we know is that we were given medication and that was it", "and sent home with a very large bill and still a dog that i needed to know because i love this dog part of our family what was wrong with her what caused this to happen and how do i prevent it from happening again so what did i do i called you and we started a whole routine for her and she's become healthier", "she's doing much she's a hundred percent better right now", "again i didn't tell you what to do", "i told you my opinion on what i would do if this was my dog", "well of course but it all made sense", "but it was up to you to take charge or not take that", "that's right and i had to take charge because no one else was doing it for me", "and you shouldn't have to go to somebody else to take charge you know the problem here is medicine has become where where we diagnose a test you know i could give you a bunch of detox supplements", "and while you're detoxing you can go take liver enzyme tests kidney enzyme tests and they'll all be elevated", "well suddenly your mask as a problem with liver and kidney", "but in fact your body is clearing itself", "right you know so it's a photograph a picture in time", "just a moment yes yes in that moment when you have added up when you add it up let's say you did five blood tests and over a period of two years and you see this constant marker then you start to suspect okay", "yeah there's kidney damage", "but and this society we don't look at the cause", "there's a root cause of it all", "you need to know cause i don't wanna repeat any behavior that may have caused my dog a problem in the first place", "exactly or you for that matter", "or me that's right", "you know because what we say about the dogs we pretty much say about the humans", "what we say about the humans in this we're talking about the animals as well", "so if you don't look at the source you're never going to resolve the problem", "same thing with with the money in the medical system", "if you don't follow the money then you don't know why the medication is what it is", "you don't know why everything is set up the way it is when you follow the money you know there's these these races for the cure of this and the races and the walk for this and that it's a cash cow", "like for example cancer a billion dollars a year in i'm sorry eighty million a year in treatment sixty million a year in diagnose you want to cure cancer", "would you want to cure cancer if you're sucking in that much money well i understand where's the incentive", "where's the incentive okay", "and if you start to even investigate things online and you know of course online you have the things you have to discern what's right", "what's bogus you know all of that stuff", "when you when you follow the deniers you find that the money they're selling a product or selling a drug or something like that to counter react what the good stuff does", "and there's a push to get supplements off the market and therapy together", "and they're selling a drug as you said to suppress rather than to exp i mean they're not solving the problem you know they haven't even found that they don't even know if the solution to the problem is but they are suppressing it so that it doesn't appear to you to be inituating", "well i would tell you that the disease and sickness everybody knows they know", "it's not rocket science", "we know the causes of the disease but we set out all these things out here to distract it because there's no money in the wellness", "there's money in illness follow the track of money", "you can follow all the way back to the drug companies to the food manufacturers to the water suppliers", "all of it", "let's see that was very sad", "well it it could be", "and but to me it's very very sad because we're talking about life here", "we're talking about life", "and i don't like the idea of fooling around with wife", "and then that brings us all the way back to what we started this conversation with", "and that is that if you care about someone whether it's your pet and it's a child or a spouse you care about that person", "then you want to make sure that they are getting the best possible opinions and attention really it's attention", "exactly", "and who pays attention more to you than someone that loves you or yourself", "exactly", "so you sit here and you look and you you wonder like these physicians come in and sometimes they're almost stoic", "you know what i mean it's it's bam bam bam", "see a man you know so i think most i know a lot of physicians a lot of people in the medical field being in the medical field they come in initially with the idea to help", "but somehow the track changes because they're mandated by licensing laws the ada the medical societies they all put these guidelines forced on you", "so for example i'm gonna talk about myself", "i'm not speaking as somebody with a doctor medical dentistry okay", "i go to school and i get this dog mode it says fluoride tucker's saying hi to the camera crew fluoride prevents cavities", "i don't read a study", "i don't read any documentation on literature wise at all", "it's done but it's passed down to me", "i'm a doctor now fluoride treatments toothpaste with fluoride bubba you know drink fluoride in your water because it makes your teeth stronger it prevents cavities", "in my research no studies say that there is not a study that says fluoride prevents cavities", "in fact europe doesn't use fluoride in the drinking water and there's no difference whatsoever in the amount of cavities in the united states and in europe", "in fact i would say united states has more because we have a sugar based diet a carbohydrate based diet", "which you don't find it in europe i can tell you that", "which you don't find in europe", "you see people walking around with candy bars and and all of that stuff", "and all of that right", "you know so persons in the medical profession such as myself that has this degree in this licensor ship and i'm gonna just put this out", "i have not been in practice for a while", "i am licensed i do not", "i am not talking here as a dentist or as a dental physician", "i don't use fluoride i avoid it like the plague but as a dentist if you came into my practice and i said don't do fluoride treatments or don't use for i'm suddenly in hot water with the powers that be yet there's no basis for the use of fluoride", "it's it's basically a lie", "so why well follow the money", "fluoride", "what we call fluoride is a toxic waste product from the aluminum industry", "great", "and when they processed the production of aluminum it goes up to the smokestacks and they scrape it cause they have to clean the smokestacks", "and they it's a toxic waste thing that when you're tall down the road it says toxic", "yet they throw it in our drinking water", "if they put it in our in our toothpaste it put it in a lot of medicines", "they put it in a lot of food but here's the weird thing in the research that i've been doing for quite a long time", "during world war ii when the nazis were in control of everything they were adding fluoride for mind control", "and you say that sounds pretty wacko", "yeah it does", "but the documentation is there but let me tell you prozac based on fluoride there's fluoride in prozac why does there need to be fluoride in pro prozac because they know the fluoride does something with your your mental capacity", "yeah and i want to say something too about the doctors we were talking about doctors", "we're very fortunate here especially in pittsburgh to have some of the i think greatest doctors in the country", "and i particularly like my doctors but here's why why i like them because i tell them how i approach things", "and they support me in that", "and i think that a good doctor you know good doctors appreciate that", "they want you to maintain a healthy lifestyle outside of their office", "they don't want to see you in there all the time", "even though a lot of them the domain tend to their own lifestyles because they're not really we're not told i was told i got a week on nutrition by a lady that was one hundred and fifty pounds overweight who taught me the pyramid", "that really doesn't make sense", "and then when we looked at her and said how can you be an nutritionist basically our eyes were balls out to be one hundred and fifty pounds overweight and you're telling me how to eat and she said don't do what i do do what i say oh well that's a bad picture there you know but we are in a center of good healthcare", "but then again it's all based on chasing the dollar you know", "the interesting thing what i found any physician any medical person that is into the holistic or the more natural side of it has had trauma themselves in one way or another that didn't get addressed or someone they care about", "and now allopathic medicine", "right", "you know which was the case for me as well", "so once that happens they kind of changed their views a little bit although they are so cautious because they can be reprimanded and hand slap them", "well they are and that stuff that they do their hands are tied", "so so let me tell you a couple of stories", "my physician's wonderful guy", "i found him because i asked the nurses at allegheny general hospital who did the doctors go to right away made the appointment and i'm not here i was in my dying state", "so i told them what i was doing and his comment to me", "well i don't think it could hurt you you know do what you want to do", "of course at the time i was on some medications i got myself off the medications", "i started the prosper", "he said i don't know what you're doing but it's working for you well he can't know what i'm doing because he'd be in trouble if he said hey you go take vitamins to you", "go take no in fact i was taking tons of vitamin c", "and the reason i was taking tons of vitamin c is it's an oxygenator it's an alkalizer it produces nitric acid boost your immune system dilate your blood vessels", "you get oxygen to your organs and your tissues and so forth", "and so i was doing all this stuff and he tells me well if you take too much of vitamin c you'll get kidney stones well so somebody along the line had mentioned that to him", "so not the case if you take too much calcium you can if the ratio of magnesium to dissolve it up there it does and you can end up having having diarrhea or you know or loose bowels", "so that's the worst thing you can get from it", "and you should always take it to bowel tolerance anyway", "so the knowledge isn't there because in the medical schools there's there's no natural", "they probably don't even get a day of nutritional training", "you know that's unfortunate it's reactive not proactive and we need to be proactive", "i think so it comes back to us", "the onus the burden of it all is on us really it is", "i mean if you want to be a responsible person you can't look to blame a doctor or a facility", "i mean really it starts with you", "yes mandated healthcare is not and what they're mandating is not healthcare", "it's reactive care get sick eat junk do whatever you want", "come to us when you're sick and we'll make your miserable until you die", "or make you comfortable until you die", "i don't know if", "in some cases if that possible but so in the end and that's and it goes back to what i had called you about you know i was so i wanted so much", "when did you to get that book done because i realized it's like i had this great awakening and then realized that oh my gosh i'm the one who's going to keep myself out of the hospital wow and you're right", "now you bring up the book", "i in conversation told rose i was writing a book and i wasn't necessarily writing a book to be published", "i was writing a book maybe to clear out my mind", "so i was journaling and documenting all of this my collection of knowledge that i'd gained over twenty years of being well you know going from being close to death to actually being well healthy not on one medication not on anything you know and i was journaling and i thought you know would make an interesting book on and i started telling rose well you're gonna publish that book", "so i don't know if it's really going to be published but it may be there", "and it's going to be a book just to make you think you know a book of my experience basically", "yeah but yeah anyway", "you know i have to just throw something in here", "i like to have a little bit of fun when i go to the doctor's office because i mean they do they have these files on you and they can't possibly get to all of that", "and and even when before they walk in the door to talk to you so every time they ask you you know to to mark off you know what's wrong with you or do you have any hearing loss i always write what with a question mark", "no one has ever said anything or notice that i do that", "i'm waiting for the guy that notices or the woman that notices that that's what i'm waiting for", "but i'd love to have fun in those forums", "and they don't because they don't see them", "so i figure i can have as much fun as i want", "well this is an example", "my cousin called me who lives in california her mother and dad live in pittsburgh", "and she said dad's in the hospital", "he's had some heart issues they put them on lasik", "it's damaging his kidneys a little bit", "his enzymes are up", "he's he's gone to the bathroom all the time", "so they're putting him they're not prescribing a pill to stop him from going to the bathroom okay", "excuse me", "we put you on a pill called lasix that makes you go to the bathroom", "and then we put you on a pill to stop you from going to the bathroom but we're not stopping the lasix", "i mean that's just an example of what happens", "i had an uncle my aunt calls me and says uncle max in the hospital he's dying what's a matter they don't know what's his medication excuse me the medication i said and jane you cannot prescribe this medication with this the contra indicated she says well that he's taken them and i said by two different doctors because sometimes we're so carp carp compartmented specialized in everything", "one doesn't know what the other one's doing", "and we forget i've had patients come in and i say are you on medication no what do you have any heart problems yes what are you taking medication for your heart oh yeah i take this this and this and that's an exact scenario", "that's right okay", "so i say from two different doctors she says no from the same doctor you can't take them together", "tell the emergency room doctor that he's on these two medications the guy says you can't take those two medications takes them off of it wow he walks home", "wow wow all right", "so these things happen", "so i always tell people you need an advocate", "you need an advocate for your little dog", "that's right you need an advocate for yourself", "so if you're in trouble have somebody around that can speak for you", "sometimes you can't speak", "when i went to the hospital i couldn't speak wow you know so you need that", "yeah you do", "what this new healthcare system that's coming up", "i think you need it even more", "right yeah so you need an advocate absolutely", "definitely need an advocate", "yeah and so and it looks a little tucker though", "i mean this is the sweetest little dog and tucker has been very very sick", "i mean it's almost like", "and people know the story of tucker a vet made him paralyzed and you know i was told to put him down and he's almost walking now", "of course i'm giving great effort", "and what got me into the pet field was i had two dogs that were aging and i kept going to the veterinarians and their model is the same as our model", "right", "you know and i was getting take this medication all the dogs thrown up in the medication while we'll change this medication not seeing any improvement", "and i thought their really not that different", "so i started giving them the approach that i gave me", "wow you know and the change even the veterinarian what are you doing you know and when you support your body on how it's meant to eat and sleep and drink and everything you have a wellness", "these bugs don't come out of the and we catch viruses in the air and in the drinking water in food and bacteria", "but it's not like you're under attack all the time", "you're only get sick when you're off center", "that's right", "you know right", "and you wanna maintain", "and that's one of the things", "and in the end my dog is doing really really well because i took her health care into my own hands", "well i'm going to cite an example if we could bring that graphic up i got this was five years ago i believe", "and i've got to read this as this was an email sent to me", "i got a call from a lady in california", "okay", "someone that i knew and she had rescued a new dog took them home and the dog got real sick took it to the vet", "the vet said he had distemper", "really nothing you can do wow", "we'll keep him comfortable and i'll read what she said okay", "and i think yeager's picture is probably up right now", "hi ed here's a little story about yeager", "we've got him on a saturday from a pile", "and he was about ten months a german shorthaired pointer mix", "two days later he got sick and we took him to the vet", "he got i'm reading this as it was sent to me he got prescribed meds but just thought he was sick days later he was worse", "took him in again vet said distemper nothing we could do", "vet said we would know when we bring them home", "when it was time to put him down we called you and you told us again i gave my opinion of oregano oil colloidal silver colostrum and other stuff", "and you told us how much and how often", "and we did exactly as you said", "yeager beat this in two weeks", "the vet was certain jaeger would not make it", "we firmly believe the dog would have been dead", "if we hadn't called you", "yeager is a great dog today", "call me crazy but somewhere in that canine brain he knows that we saved him he's a loyal wonderful dog", "okay", "now i'm not saying this because it's something that i did", "i made suggestions in my opinion whether they took charge or not and did it was totally up to them", "right", "but see there is something that the allopathic medical field said nothing we can do go home and die they said i want to try to do something", "and they looked to another angle see personally and it worked", "personally i say allopathic and traditional", "what we call traditional medicine is the alternative medicine", "the real medicine is all this other stuff", "chiropractic care nutuition supplementation", "right reiki i'm at a loss right now acupuncture", "and exercise", "and all of those things that really you know continue to build up the immune system to make you stronger", "you know and the thing is when it's somebody that you care about again most people wanna fight", "i want to fight for life i did", "i want to fight for it", "i want to make sure you know that nothing takes that dog down or it takes my child down or my husband down", "i want to fight for them", "and that's exactly what this person you know she was given a death sentence and she said no i don't accept it i don't accept and that's the you bring up this grade point rose", "the medical profession labels you they label you as a cancer victim they label you as a diabetic", "wow they label you", "and that's what they see you as", "and you accept that you are what you accept", "there's a saying that's absolutely true", "you are what you eat you are what you accept", "if you accept the label somebody puts you under you are that and you're not a diabetic", "you're not a cancer victim you're not you're not those people", "okay you know and the minute that gets into your head it stays there it stays there", "it stays there", "and then you start defining yourself as such and then you know that's almost the defeat of attitude", "it is the defeat of yeah yeah", "and it creates this cognitive dissonance where you start to own up to it and you believe it", "and you live in and then you start living that way", "exactly as that victim", "one of the walls that i hit was i have three weeks of memory loss", "i have like maybe a total of five minutes of memory that are that are bits and pieces", "my first memory is my the surgeon that saved my life and doing the surgery that he did with my situation my intestines he came in and i said when i'm able and mind you i was in no condition at the time", "i said i want to give you a hug for saving my life and he looked at me", "he said we're not there yet just like that wow", "as sick as i was i went what now here's me that you took out the diseased area and the trauma area and i'm i'm fine", "and we're not here", "he said we're not there yet i was like oh my devastated", "but at that time i then realized i had to get me where i needed to be", "yeah you were putting your hands into someone else but and that's okay", "like you said earlier but you need to take some responsibility yourself", "i will tell you that i own my illness to a certain degree because my lifestyle was not great", "i ate m and m's and potato chips and drink a coke from many a lunch", "see i don't see anything wrong with that we're gonna talk my favorite foods it just so happened", "we gonna talk about why that's wrong", "but i did things like that you know i was hard", "i did you know things sports wise they were hard on my body you know tearing cartilages breaking knees doing things like that", "so we bring a lot of that stuff on", "so i will own a little bit but most of my condition was misdiagnosis and bad surgeries right", "that brought the final thing on", "so you know we share this responsibility yes we do", "but you own your health", "that's right no one else does", "no else does no one else even wants it", "you know what happens right i mean who needs that on top of everything else it's yours and yours alone", "you get it you have a disease that you're diagnosed with and you're doing these conventional treatments whatever whether they work or not", "but at the end if you were to pass and crossover your physician goes on feels bad and goes on", "you don't well you go on but you don't go on they way you are now", "yeah exactly", "so why do you hand that over why do you know it's like you want to hold on to that and never let go really think about it", "it's that important exactly", "it's something that you need to embrace and to not let go of", "we haven't answered how you do that", "it's education you have to educate yourself and you have to not take things as dogma", "when somebody when somebody tells me well my physician says i have to do this i say go go talk to another physician go get a third opinion they all may be different", "and then you add up and say you do the pros and cons well this may work this sounds better", "this looks i did the research", "this has more probability of greater success right you know whatever", "we're all human beings", "we're all taught different ways", "and we all learn things differently", "so one two three opinions go for it you know and try to seek i don't say you look at a yellow pages to find someone who talked to someone who is going to these people and ask what their experiences has been and how things turned out", "it's proactive it's proactive", "yeah yeah", "i mean it takes a lot of work and it's a big deal but it is your life after all", "i mean you know when you think about it we have time for our emails and the texting and the television show that we can't miss every week", "and if you have time for all of that you certainly need to make time for your good health", "and that's what this has been about on this program is our good health and how to maintain it how to anticipate what might be coming down the road and to prepare for it", "yeah same as with an animal", "if your animal is not eating properly they're not gonna be healthy", "right you know so", "yeah so i mean it's always just you have so much information and just i have learned from you too firsthand", "so anything that we're talking about right now is something that i have also experienced", "and i just know that i don't want to ever have to worry again like i did this summer i want to take control", "i don't want to label myself and i'm not gonna allow someone else to label me either", "exactly", "and and that's kind of what you know that's what we talked about this entire segment on this program is just taking control and recognizing that you and you alone are responsible for your good health and you and you alone are responsible for your child's good health your pet's good health", "and we have certainly a lot more information to bring to you we are going to take a break", "and when we come back from that break there's plenty more to discuss there always is with you my goodness", "i could spend hours on the phone with you talking about these kinds of things cause they're they're important", "i mean they should be number one in your life", "and that's why we bring you this program", "and some of the information that we are bringing you", "so we're going to go ahead and go to break", "and when we come back we'll have a lot more too", "wonderful look forward to it", "if you are looking for a vacation escape from the pressures of modern life iceland has much to offer", "reykjavik is a charming and safe city to walk with a small town flavor and warmth and cultural richness", "the country uses geothermal steam to heat homes and outdoor swimming pools which leaves the air clean and clear", "unspoiled nature is nearby abundant and breathtaking", "this is iceland pure natural unspoiled", "come see for yourself", "some people might think adrian would be totally dependent on his parents the rest of his life that he'd never be able to go to college like his brother that he'd never be able to achieve his dream of being an actor we couldn't disagree more where they are", "and we believe everyone should have the opportunity to realize their full potential", "i am proud to lord to have poor ed", "for over over sixty years", "the arc has been advocating for people with intellectual and developmental disabilities standing up for those in need connecting people just like adrian with the services and support they deserve", "i wanna be a professional actor in movies and in place", "so they can be anything they want to be", "i'm potter and give public no me aspect or ugly", "i achieved my theme of bead our threads", "the arc helps make dreams come true", "if you need help or if you want to help visit us at wwwdarcorg", "i've got my own problems to worry about those people in africa don't want to help themselves", "what's the point where's the proof actually smart programs are saving lives", "in just ten years over fifteen million more kids are alive all less than one", "totally worth budget", "how is that approved and today there are new vaccines that could save millions of more kids", "go to oneorg and join the movement", "we're not asking for your money", "we're asking for your voice", "welcome back to let's talk healthy pets", "i am serving as a guest host today", "my name is rose and i'm with my long time friend i used to say my old friend but i'm just not digging that anymore", "we're not that old my friend ed sakowski", "and you know i just want to point something out that we're doing something a little different today", "what we're doing is like a crossover program where we talk about the good health of your pet but not just your pet as a person too you need to be in health good health always", "and if you want to take care of those that you love whether it's your pet or your children or a spouse then you need to be healthy as well", "so we're kind of going back and forth between good health for people good health for pets", "so we're back and let's talk about food because this is ed yelled at me recently", "he did in a very nice way but he did have to take me to task because i was feeding my dog a brand name dog food and we were having a lot of issues with our dog", "and once i stopped doing that things began to change", "and you can't just change overnight can you you can't just suddenly say okay you're not going to get that brand name food anymore", "we're going to give you this new food", "you can't you have to gradually introduce them", "well that's a good suggestion", "i do want to comment first that it's kind of fun and strange being in the hot seat for a change", "it's all i recommend all the time that when you make changes you do them gradually", "okay so you know you take the old food and you integrate the new food in small amounts and then over a few days five seven days you start increasing the new food", "just not to create a shock because the body does adjust to the junk that you eat", "and then when you start to get the better quality of food it has to make another adjustment", "now when i rescued my dogs the change was like turning on a light switch never had an issue but i'm well versed on how to do it as someone that may be new to making these changes it's always best to do slowly", "whether you're adding a supplement whether you're changing the food you know all of that", "so", "because sometimes it upsets their stomach and i was wondering and that's what stopped me", "actually i started to introduce a new food early on years ago and i saw that it upset her stomach", "so i thought you know what that's it i thought it was something wrong with the food the new food the better food", "when in fact it was just an adjustment", "i think people need to know that that there is an adjustment period sometimes it's kinda hard this story kinda have a look at it", "we have a disease let's say you're in a disease state", "what does that mean it means this ease", "okay not you know it's it's it's a body out of whack", "that's my favorite term out of whack or out of whack get it back in whack whack", "so when the body adjusts to what it's consuming even though that's that stuff may be not so good for you", "right and then all of a sudden you know you have receptor cells you have you know different enzymes and different bacteria in within the structure of the intestines so forth", "and suddenly you're making that change", "and the body says oh what's going on here and then it starts showing some symptoms of what you might think of as being a problem", "but it's just an adjustment", "okay and here i thought that i was doing okay too with the name brand dog food that i had because it said on the bag that there was chicken in the bag", "oh yeah they had chicken in there", "and then you taught me how to look at the ingredients and just how much chicken was in there or was chicken even a great idea", "i generally grab a bag of or good ken or bag dog food and a bad or usual one that everybody buys a store brand", "let's put it that way and or a big box brand", "and i forgot to bring them", "but if you look at it you'd have to really know how just like for your own food you have to know how to read the label", "and a lot of them are kind of deceptive okay", "so you look at something first of all let me say your animal should not be eating grains of any kind whether that be corn wheat barley or just whatever", "we are so us as bodies as humans them as animals they are designed so specifically for food source", "so if you look at us for example we have teeth that tear", "we have teeth to chew we have teeth that grind", "we have a testable track or most of us do that", "then it's a certain length that processes the food dogs are the same way", "their teeth are tearing teeth", "they're only meant to meet their intestinal track and their stomach is designed a certain length to process that meat", "so when you start feeding grains and corns and things that they're not supposed to eat they can't handle it", "now they can handle a little more than a cat", "a cat never have anything but pure meat", "if a cat kills an animal it doesn't need the stomach contents a dog may", "so in that stomach could be grasses and leaves and you know greens and you know whatever", "but a cat will not eat the stomach of that animal", "eats the flesh will not touch something", "interesting i didn't know that", "yeah so cats are even more particular to the to the protein source that they're getting", "and it has to be a meat product", "i think one of the things i found most interesting when i changed the food for my dog was the immediate results i began to see", "i don't think i expected to see results or see them that quickly let's put them out", "there is the saying and it's absolutely true", "you are what you eat so your cells absorb those nutrients", "and we're going to talk a little later rose if we can about how that process works what does protein do and how it works and what we need to make it work", "but that change is dramatic and you see it in the coat you see it in the reduction of hotspots and so forth", "so as far as i'm concerned even a human should eat very small amounts of green", "dogs really shouldn't be getting any", "and corn is the worst because a lot of most corn is gmo genetically modified organism", "so they're taking animals they're taking other plants and they're changing the genetics of that plant", "and they're fine", "the results are finding that they're toxic", "the studies are we're not told that we're told genetically modified food is good for you", "it is not good for you", "start researching it and you won't touch genetically modified food", "okay so when you're looking at a bag let's talk about that and i want to talk about organic versus any other type of food but when you're looking at a bag what are they looking for what should we be looking for well for the dog you're looking at the first ingredient", "what should be meat okay now it can be deceptive", "so and i mean meat you can use chicken you can use fish whatever", "but what i say the first ingredient should be meat", "it's a little deceptive because meat is weighed wet", "so if you have a grain food that they had grain the grain could be the you could say corn the second ingredient but it actually there's probably more corn", "in fact there's certainly more corn in that ingredient in that product than meat cause in the cooking process it dries out and you have less meat in there but for the most part and it's not a hundred percent of the case they're not taking the quality meats that we might eat and putting it in that food", "it's the waste products you know so you have to you have to really study the packaging and see what's in there", "so you look the first ingredient as a meat product okay", "dogs can eat a little bit of vegetables", "i would tell you really not a lot of fruit but they can eat some vegetables", "so there can be some vegetables in that mix", "it's okay for them you know i when i made my own food i went there when sometimes carrots sometimes kale every once in a while a little bit of rice you know they can handle it", "so you look at the first ingredient being a meat product", "okay", "and then let's talk you'll see a word like meal meal", "right", "technically speaking when you see the word meal that's usually the byproducts or the waste products that are not really fit for human consumption", "so it'll say animal byproducts or animal byproduct meal", "okay all right", "so that's putrid stuff that that's rancid and rotted and then everything that they throw out the floor where they're cutting meats and then they put in into your at your pet food", "if you see the word meal like chicken meal it's usually not the best quality", "okay", "now there are a few products where they use more choice meats and they freeze dry", "and grind it up into a meal", "and then they have to say the word meal", "in all dry food and the process of making dry food", "you have to use some form of meals", "so it has to be either meat meal you know chicken meal fish meal whatever", "in canned food doesn't have to be", "okay all right", "so i tend to stay away from products that say the word meal", "my dogs personally get a product called original dog food company and its organic free range grass fed beef from argentina", "wow", "you know so they're getting and you don't have to feed very much", "it's a little more expensive but you don't have to feed very much", "cause they're getting the pure protein", "they're not getting these fillers that are in there", "and when they add corn and wheat and stuff your animals can even process", "in fact they feed vegetables corn to cows cows cannot process it", "what they make from it it starts to goes into the meat", "so when we eat cows fed by corn besides it being gmo corn we're eating starch in the meat because the cows can digest it", "so that's not the best meat for us either too", "no we should be see organic food doesn't necessarily give you more nutrition", "but what it gives you is the lack of pesticides and pesticides are killer", "and these gmo foods are actually being designed and engineered to have pesticides natural pesticides in them", "wow and we're consuming it", "but it also when you eat organic it gives you the food that you were meant to eat", "the food that you were meant to eat and it's important like eggs are extremely important for you to consume", "you know all of our cells in our body have a substance in them called the rocket danek acid", "you never hear anybody talk about it", "and the rocket identic acid only has", "and it's eleven to nineteen depending on what study you read you can't get it from a vegetable source", "so if you're eating not eating animal products and quality animal products you're not getting the accurate act okay", "you're not getting the rocket down the gas mines mines mine's going faster than my mouth is moving", "so what happens here is you don't have an intact wall and things that should be moving in out whether they be nutrition vitamins minerals oxygen fluid isn't happening because you don't have the right structured cell wall", "so as a vegetarian healthy", "i would tell you no as a vegan healthy", "i would tell you really no you know what i mean because you need a rocket danek acid but you want to get it sourced from grass fed free range eggs raw milk chicken", "so what's good for our dog is good for us", "and the reverse can be said as well", "over the years of lecturing for humans and animals", "i always say this about the animals", "and it's true for holds true for humans as well", "you're going to pay it one way or another", "you're going to pay it with the food and the supplements to keep your dog", "well are you going to pay it to the veterinarian or are you going to pay it in grief yes you know so i'd rather pay it upfront and be happy about it", "you know knowing that i'm doing the best thing i can for my dog my cat myself you know", "the cost is high the cost is high whether it's a veterinary veterans fee or it is the grief", "and and even just knowing that your your pet is not well is is very difficult", "well you know you stay up you stay up nights you know and you could talk about organic food", "i think it's critical", "i do it as much as i can because you're not meant to consume pesticides", "you know so we can talk about raw food and cook food", "really the only difference raw food has digestive enzymes cook food does not", "if you cook a food cook food in a microwave it's dead food", "you can actually take a volt meter and stick it into it and say rob potato and you get electrical potential that reads out of there", "so you get bullet bolts", "so there's electrical energy in that potato", "if you freeze the potato or you microwave the potato", "you lose it you lose it", "so you ever heard this word live food that's part of what live food is", "and part of why raw food is so good for you is because it has that energy and we're nothing but energy", "great", "so you you nuke a potato and you've lost any value", "well the interesting thing here here's the interesting a baked potato is nothing but starch that's all it is", "so you could drink a can of soda pop full of sugar", "and it has the same same thing", "all right", "the nutrition is actually in in the skin skin all right", "that's where the vitamins and minerals are also a little bit fungus aflatoxin beef fungus at the eyes of those potatoes really cuts out", "yeah but it's interesting what nature does you need vitamins and minerals right", "where there's minerals they're found in sweet products", "so what nature does is puts these minerals in the outside of the housing of this fruit or vegetable that's sweet", "you eat you know you shouldn't tore your potato you should clean it and eat the skin", "same thing with an apple", "that's where that is", "the rest of it is the sweeping that attracts you oh really yeah so it's amazing how nature puts because minerals can be bitter right", "it's amazing how they it's combined with the bitter and the sweet so that you go for it and you're getting the minerals that you need", "i never knew that i never do that", "that's interesting", "i'm gonna talk about something else too that you had me do for my dog and you know and one of the things i want to stress is that when you're taking care of a pet i mean it's just it's the same as taking care of someone that you love when you're taking care of a pet yes", "sometimes it seems like you know it's time consuming or there's one more step now to this whole process that you didn't have before", "but like ed said earlier that saves you the grief or the bill from the veterinarian that can sometimes be really really high", "i just had that experience myself over the summer", "but it's important that you know it becomes a routine after a while", "yes it might seem like you're taking extra steps and you're doing a lot more for your pet than you were before but in the end it pays off and it just becomes a routine", "and it's not something that that is so overwhelming you know as it may seem when you initially start to do some of these things", "one of the things that you had me do was to introduce some oils and we started with a fish oil", "if you remember for my dog for spike i would use an eye dropper and put some oil on top of her food before she ate it", "and again i started seeing a difference in her after that her hair was different", "she had those hot spots a lot of hot spots", "they began to disappear", "so i mean you saw the effects rather quickly", "and even if it's not quick it is taking effect", "but what i want to stress is that yeah it's one more step it's one more thing", "but look when you care about your family you care about your pet", "it's just something that you do and in the end it pays off in many many ways", "absolutely what's important about fish oil same thing for us same thing for them you have dha and uhoh", "don't look for me to give you the answer", "oh boy it just ran out of my head but there are two ingredients that you need", "one vha affects the brain", "i want to say epa but that sounds like a government agency", "so i'm off but that helps yourselves and your coat and so forth okay", "so there's two things that you essentially need dogs need it as well okay and but while we're on the subject of fats you have to get a quality fish oil while you're at it", "because there is mercury that can get into this", "and you have to kind of read through the lines on some of these things but here's two important factors", "you should never eat canola oil consumed canola oil", "and that's what most restaurants fry their food or vegetable oil should never be consumed", "and you'll say why why because it's part of the ingredients and brownies well canola oil canola oil", "there's no such thing as a canola seed", "okay what is canola oil i don't even know", "canola oil is extracted from the seed of a weed called the rape seed", "now if you were told to consume rape seed it's not a very nice name and you would probably wouldn't consume it but they gave it this name canola it's almost italian", "it's a nice italian name yeah it's a nice italian name let's have some canola", "well what canola oil is besides being toxic", "right", "it actually wraps yourselves and almost like a saran wrap", "they make plastics and pesticides out of canola oil", "okay so you're you're preventing you're actually selling yourselves off from nutrients going in and out never touch it", "what oils and fats should you touch well i would tell you coconut oil", "in fact i have told you coconut oil", "yeah and they're finding the coconut oil is is is quite remarkable especially for people that are was beginning stages of dementia and", "well i can get into all three if it's about that and that's true but what happens with coconut oil and you want extra virgin organic coconut oil and they actually make a sugar from coconut oil", "well the coconut oil should it be like the solid or is it", "well depending on room temperature it'll solidify or if it's warm it becomes liquid", "so it's very dependent on room temperature", "i make my eggs in it every morning", "i make the dog's eggs in it every morning or afternoon it makes a fluffy flavorful omelet you know that but coconut oil does a number of things", "and one of the two things that it has in there that are critical are is loric acid and caprylic acid", "they're antifungal they're antiviral they are nontoxic actually helps with epilepsy because a lot of epilepsies that aren't from trauma or from fungal overgrowth and they're toxins and this controls the fundus", "so cook in coconut oil salads extra virgin organic olive oil", "yeah", "eat natural stuff not the stuff that's synthesized it's made or made from things that we shouldn't be consuming you know so what's the big thing about fats", "well you have an electric potential", "we're going to talk about that hopefully in the next segment but electrical potential is stored in your fat", "so your body should be about twenty fat but the right kind of fat", "all right cause i was going to say yeah i think i've got that covered doesn't worry about that yeah you know these partially hydrogenated fats and so forth like canola oil you know bad for you the good fats olive oil coconut oil palm oil", "oh palm oil too yeah", "all right when we talk about pets and their need for fats and oils is it because they're not out there in the wild and killing and getting those natural fats and oils from", "we took their natural diet and totally destroyed it okay", "that's exactly for our convenience you know the food industry didn't start until the early fifties everybody fed their dogs scraps from what they ate", "oh really yeah", "and then suddenly you know this market was created and it was products that were being thrown away", "that ended up into the pet food industry", "i remember as a child feeding my my the first dog that i was old enough to remember we bought these hamburgers that were pink and had yellow cheese lines in there", "and it was wrapped in cellophane and it looked like a human hamburger", "oh", "i forget what they were called but it was like feeding her clay and garbage", "and she had health problems all along as a result of it", "you know so the food industry for pets is improving but you really got to be the discerning consumer and you have to read it and you have to look things up", "and if you don't understand it look at it", "you can take the chemical structure of water and you wouldn't want to eat it you wouldn't want to drink it because chemically it's names we can't pronounce but food really you should be able to pronounce and know what it is", "yeah it should be pure form be the purest form", "so if you want to begin to introduce fats and oils into your pet's diet", "slowly what i would suggest you do is is you know if you have coconut oil and it's liquified cause of the room temperature", "take a fork load the fork up and let a dribble on the food", "okay", "olive oil you can put a little bit of olive oil cause olive oil is omega6s", "all right and you need a little bit of omega6 but omega6 is actually inflammatory and where there's inflammation there eventually is disease", "so you don't want to overload it but you need omega3s omega9s all right", "so i'm gonna", "but then you buy a package let's say in a healthy store cause there's a lot of health food stores that you have come to trust over the years and you buy an omega three hundred and sixty nine", "they put the right balance", "they generally do yes", "okay yeah yeah", "so anyway i think i said something wrong", "i said did i say olive oil was omega6", "no you didn't", "okay all right", "okay anyway add it slowly", "okay", "and if you were to add too much like like for example you have fish oil i would say a teaspoon every twenty five pounds of your animal", "okay you know if you were to add too much what you ended up getting is a little soft stool", "okay", "and then you just back off a little bit", "yeah and i know that you can get some of these things in a dropper and it doesn't as you said it doesn't require a lot", "it's just a tiny little bit over the top", "a larger dog a little more", "oh okay", "a larger dog requires more all right", "and that makes sense", "now let's talk about you and i have talked a lot about good health", "and how a lot of it really can have to do your stomach and stomach acids", "and that's something that you talk about all the time with me anymore", "it's like this is your new thing", "like you're really into this", "well it's not a new thing", "it's just in my research", "yeah in my research that i've been doing extensively", "i've come across what's behind everything okay", "so we in america do things to shut down our stomach acid", "there's a pill for that", "okay all right so listen what happens when you shut down your stomach acid you consume protein", "so we consume meat or legumes as protein", "and we think we're absorbing that protein", "that protein is actually a foreign body to us that can offend us and cause symptoms of allergies can cause symptoms of flu", "so what happens is our stomach acid breaks those proteins down into amino acids", "then your body can reconfigure those amino acids in the proportions that you need specifically to you", "so you can eat a steak and get something totally different out of it", "than i eat a steak when i eat a steak all right because of our needs and the reconstruction of these amino acids without stomach acid you do not break those down into amino acids", "so and we're going to talk in the next segment about this electrical potential i keep wanting to talk about but it's a little premature to talk about it now", "when you don't have stomach acid you can't have the electrical potential", "so bunch of things go awry as a result of that", "so let's say you don't have a stomach acid and you're taking supplements calcium magnesium zinc which are all important things that consume", "you can't break them down you can't break them down", "you can't absorb it we just expel them out", "wow okay", "so should we be shutting down stomach acid absolutely not", "i take things to make stomach acid", "one thing that i always recommend is bragg's raw apple cider vinegar", "it actually alkalizes your body which is important but it adds stomach acid", "most stomach acid reflux is not amounts of acid back up in yourself i guess", "it's off gassing undigested food", "wow", "and that's why when you take a teaspoon of bragg's suddenly your heartburn goes away", "wow now you can you can normally make stomach acid if you're taking the right supplements cause i think we're all deficient", "our diet makes us deficient in stomach acid", "and then we take things to suppressed on the gasoline", "that's why after a very short time on on things like prosecond sober you know these these antiacid antiacid whatever they are you don't you can go into osteoporosis osteopenia osteoporosis happened to me and i had to reverse it as a result of it", "when they wanted to put me on that those junk calcium building pills", "so you need stomach acid", "so what makes stomach acid iodine which we're all deficient in vitamin b1 salt water which is incredibly important to be fluid these things", "and there's a couple more make stomach acid", "so every other day i take those to increase the amount of amount of my stomach acid", "so i'm digesting my foods making the proper amino acids", "so all these supplements that you know that i take otherwise it's a waste then", "it's a waste and you're not getting the benefit of them", "so stomach and so it's really interesting", "this is absolutely amazing", "and i want to make sure not to run over but when you consume something your stomach acid comes up", "it's supposed to at the time that your stomach acid comes up to two it sends a buffering agent into your blood", "so your blood doesn't become a siddiq", "oh wow", "if you're low on acid you're not making that buffering component", "then when food moves into your small intestine the process of reverse it goes to an eight", "so your pancreas throws in a buffering agent at the same time it throws a little bit of acid in your blood to balance it out", "so if you mess up at the beginning you're way messed up at the end", "wow", "and i and i think too and we can talk about this more after the break but i think too that some people will say well you know i'm not eating that well and i'm not worried about my stomach acid and i seem to be fine but what they're doing right now is gonna affect them later", "it's affecting them now", "they don't even recognize her", "because what happens is we wait till the disease process", "then we react and why do i have stomach acid reflux why do i have diabetes why do i have cancer and sometimes it's a little late to counter all of those things", "so that's why and when you talk to teenagers do you i mean we're talking about our pets and how we care for them and our children as well what we're telling them to put in", "but you know talking about taking your vitamins taking your supplements those are all important things that they need because they're in a very crucial time", "growing period developing period", "and growth so we are talking let's talk healthy pets with ed sakowski and i'm a filling as a guest host today", "my name is rose and we will certainly be back with a lot more after this break", "international disasters occur frequently compared to donated goods", "financial donations are the best ways to help disaster victims", "even small cash donations can have a far greater impact", "difficulties in shipping and storing donated goods can sometimes interfere with relief efforts but relief efforts can purchase exactly what is needed with cash donations cash prevents all types of inappropriate giving", "just remember cash is always best", "for more info go to cidiorg", "a clean breath of air shouldn't have a price tag on it", "our river here is already contaminated with mercury", "my water was kind of yellow and it has a rusty smell", "my lungs are shot my hands are numb", "the incidences of asthma hospitalizations and respiratory problems", "all the children that are ending up in the emergency room not being able to breathe", "i'm tired of people in my church dying from all kinds of cancer", "and i just think that every day we're threatened", "when listen to your coughing child upstairs", "you wonder should i be living here you need to make the transition yesterday", "i mean people's lives as a word", "i'm sure there's stories just like ours all over this country", "what we have to say is important and our voice does matter", "more than twelve million people are at risk of starvation in east africa due to the worst drought in sixty years", "at the dadaab refugee camp i met people desperate for food and water but already over tens of thousands have died", "half of them children under the age of five but oxfam is there in east africa saving lives with emergency food and water", "and you can help us give ten by texting oxfam to twenty five thousand three hundred and eighty three", "so we're back with let's talk healthy pets", "my name is rose i'm a friend of ed's", "we've been friends for a very long time and i'm guest hosting today", "one of the things that we've been talking about well we've been talking about a lot of things but we really we can just narrow it down to this", "it's so important that you stay healthy so that those that you love stay healthy as well whether they are your spouse your children or your pets", "so we're kind of crossing over today talking about staying healthy as a human being but also keeping our pets as healthy as well", "we were talking about stomach acid and how important that is to maintain that balance and how your entire health depends upon it not just yours but your pets as well", "exactly and especially in your pet rose that actually their stomach produces more acid than we do", "one of the things about acid that's so critical", "you know we ingest pathogens you know bad bacteria viruses fungus that stomach acid kills them and actually is part of your protective mechanism", "so when you're low on stomach acid you're more vulnerable to these pathogens", "so they have a higher amount of stomach acid because what do they eat roadkill live animals that may have diseases and so forth", "and that's what their their history is", "so they're stomach acid is higher than even ours", "cause we go to a point to they actually go higher than that", "but our diet that we've been feeding them has changed a lot of that", "so i will drop a few drops of let's say bragg's raw apple cider vinegar into one of their meals a day to help that digestive it i give them digestive enzymes", "so stomach acid is so critical to our overall health", "and we're gonna talk about how it even implies the next topic you know relates to the next topic", "but zinc is extremely extremely important for all our functions in our body", "and eighty of us are zinc deficient", "wow we will not absorb zinc without stomach acids", "well there's so much to think about", "and yet as i said before it may seem overwhelming at first but once it becomes a routine and once it becomes habit in your life then it's that much easier", "and you really don't even think about it", "exactly and we were talking about now these are treats i didn't bring prep food and these are treats i give my dogs", "this one this one is and i'm not recommending them", "i'm just showing you what i use", "that what i found to be the best", "a healthy a healthy treat yeah", "they're raw they're freeze dried they're grainfree which means they're glutenfree they're potato free", "potatoes are not good for your dogs", "so even though you'll see potatoes in dog food they have a little bit of added added vitamins and minerals but that's really my nude but i just got blinded by the light", "and now i can't read this but let's let's see what's in here a little bit of excellent", "i'm so blinded i can't even see it right now", "let me take a look for you my eyes are getting better but but what's good about this", "and i think that you know it could be any of the ingredients are beef with ground bone", "so that's the first ingredient in this product", "and that's what you want to look for even in a treat because you know i was talking to him before i had changed my dog's diet but then i didn't change the treats", "which i used to harp on you all the time", "i know all the time", "so the very first ingredient is beef and it goes on it's more than just that it's the beef liver beef kidney then there's apples in here chickpeas things that a lot of protein", "exactly and this this is another product i give and they love it", "and it's the same type of thing has a few barriers in it", "and it has some some lettuce in it and things like that", "and then here is a salmon bite it's alaskan wild salmon", "wow", "and really nothing else a little bit of meat meat in there and you're getting healthy treats", "so when you give a healthy treat it's nutrition", "and the dogs like them right and the dogs like them yeah it's not like you're feeding a kid the dog is going to eat this is we're talking about dogs that he did just about anything", "right let's see how i yeah", "i would say that the dog likes this one a lot", "all right so we were talking about stomach acids and we also were talking earlier", "we just mentioned this we only touched on it electrical energy in the body and how important it is to produce that and maintain that", "and now we need to talk about how you do that", "this is so critical", "you are a battery", "everyone of yourselves has a positive poll and a negative poll", "everyone yourself is filled with ionic solution liquid solution", "what is a battery positive pole negative pole ionic solution sounds a little wacko", "maybe no it's actually taught to us in medical school", "right and we defined the krebs center as a cycle and how atp works", "and that's how we get our energy and everything", "it's all part of this electrical energy", "you were electrical energy machine", "that's why you can do an ekg", "that's why you can do an eeg and you'd have magnetic poles", "that's why you can do an mri", "the mri actually which i don't know if really that's that a healthy reverses those poles temporarily", "so we are electrical energy", "interestingly enough our cells a healthy cell runs between a twenty millivolts and a twenty five millivolts an injured cell needs to go to a fifty minus is good", "it's an iron donator you know positive is really bad", "that's an iron stiller", "oh okay", "so the more negative you are the better you are to regenerate an injured cell", "you'd have to be go", "your body has to take that injured area to a fifty to regenerate a malignant cell", "it has to go to a sixty", "so when you start going up the scale to the positive side you go from let's say twenty five and you get to a five", "you start filling not so great", "when you get to ten you start feeling sick", "when you get to a twenty you're in a chronic disease state when you get i mean not the twenty or twenty", "i mean that i say that and see i'm thinking and talking and it's hard to do these days", "when you go to10 to sixty five to ten then you go to op to a thirty you have cancer", "so as you go five ten fifteen twenty you have chronic disease okay so so how do we keep this voltage all right well number one you have to be hydrated and you have to drink quality water", "not all water is quality water", "also the ph that's the hydrogen potential potential hydrogen ph that's the electricity in that cell", "so when you take i will let me make a statement", "no disease lives in an oxygen native environment", "when you have an i don't care if it's cancer i don't care if it's diabetes i don't care what it is", "any bacteria they're all go to sleep in an oxygenated environment", "when you get to an acidic environment they wake up", "so you have to keep your body as alkaline which is a seven hundred and thirty five to seven hundred and forty five ph reading", "as much as you can one of the ways is using ph water meaning water that's at eight oh and eight five a nine o because if you have determined and how do we know well i've actually done self testing on many bottles of water because i bought an electronic ph meter in my research", "i want to double check even the research that i've been reading on on the water", "well there's some natural waters that have good ph like fiji water tested out to be almost a 9o for me", "they advertise it as like a nine four", "there's a water called real water that they infuse with ions that are stabilized it's an eighty that's", "it was actually eighty one when i read it average bottle water six thousand three hundred and sixty two io water six thousand one hundred and sixty", "you know reverse osmosis filtered water low they're acidic so they take you to this city mode", "you want to go to the alkaline mode chlorophyll green", "and you've heard me talk many times about chlorophyll but i use that", "i put that in a bottle of water", "i do the same thing i do the same thing eating greens dark greens chlorophyll", "okay okay", "and those things take you", "in fact you can go online and google alkaline foods and acidic foods and it'll give you list meat products or acidic but you need a certain amount but you do want to have a good vegetarian diet on top of that of these dark green lady things and then supplement yourself with most supplements take you to the alkaline state", "so you know there's a purpose for those minerals take you to an outline state amino acids taking a alkaline state", "alcohol takes you to an acidic state", "yeah there you go", "why do you seen it like that to me coffee", "okay so i like a glass of wine", "coffee takes you to an acidic state", "no look i can understand that for for a human being", "okay we can figure that out", "now if we're concerned about the electrical energy of our pet how how are we handling that i mean are we giving them bottled water yeah i mean their a little more acidic than we are so they're not as sensitive to it but i put 8o 9o water", "and there's actually some there's a wonderful supplement that you can add to any water to take it to an alkaline state", "okay", "and it does it dramatically", "it's called ionph phion", "and you can google that", "it's a company out of phoenix", "and i used is that to your dog's water", "yeah you have to you have to do a measurement", "so there's so much of each liquid that you put in two ounces of water", "and then i just i always add that water right to their dog food", "so they need to be hidrate dehydration is is one of the worst things we can get into", "it makes us acidic", "it it stops digestion", "it stops the cell process it stops regeneration", "it is absolutely amazing", "and there were actually actually tests done where they took cells had the voltage between that twenty and twenty five raised it up to a thirty their cells went to cancer raised it down to a sixty and the cancer cells dies and new cells regenerated", "when you hit yourself let's say your finger it with a thumb you know your thumb with a hammer rather you get that instant pain", "that is your cells going down to a fifty", "oh is that right", "yeah and that's why it's a throbbing pain", "the minute they come up to the normal regeneration after they've regenerated that the throbbing stops", "when you have chronic pain you are at like that doesn't stop", "at this plus side and it doesn't go away until you change it", "and you say what are some of the other things that are really important thyroid our thyroid is the voltage regulator of every cell in our body", "vitamin d is the the introductory regulating hormone because it's not a vitamin it's mislabeled to every hormone that your body makes when you're not making thyroid your adrenals take over", "and then you stress your adrenals out and you raise your core it's a vicious cycle", "so i would tell you that a majority of people are misdiagnosed as well as to the health of their thyroid right", "and you need to really address it", "a normal blood test only tells you if you have too much thyroid being produced or you have not enough being produced it can give you a most of the times a false reading", "and i know it's probably we don't have enough time to get into it but that under our test of of your basal metabolic temperature is is the best way to do it", "and i don't know if you were doing that on", "i know we talked about it", "a little bit of time i can't see", "i cannot see that mercury i don't care", "i don't i'm sorry", "i've never could my entire life", "i can not see the mercury to tell exactly what the temperature is so", "we can go in an idea", "and we can't do it now because we've got like two minutes left", "yeah so i would tell you to start investigating it started investigating why we shouldn't consume fluoride why we shouldn't consume chlorine and then look into supplements just pick a supplement start reading about it", "when you start reading about it and you learn how they interact and what they do you'll start taking them because it's it's it's a quest for health right", "a quest for wellness you know you could live to be a hundred and be sick and not be happy a hundred you know what i mean but you could live to be seventy and be healthy and have quality of life", "right so", "and i think i prefer quality of life you know and i have to say too that i have put a lot of this into practice things that you and i have talked about over the years and i can see a difference and even with the supplements if i miss a week or if i was away on vacation and forgot to bring them with me i can feel the difference", "you see the energy go down", "you see the change in your hair and your skin everything", "we're actually running out of time rosie i'm going to take the show back from", "is that what you it it a show", "and i thank you so much for giving me an opportunity to talk", "and and it's always a pleasure to see you of course", "but when you come to the set and do this i do appreciate i do appreciate it", "and thank you so much for watching let's talk healthy pets", "this show was about inspiring you inspiring you to take charge and to look at things", "don't don't take my word for it", "don't take other people's word for it", "start to study it", "it's really not that hard", "and you'll start to move toward wellness for you for your family for your animals", "so i thank you so much for watching", "let's talk healthy pets", "remember a healthy pet is a happy place and take care of yourself", "take care of your animals", "we'll see you next time", "rose thank you so much", "thank you it's a pleasure"], "name": ["Let_s_Talk_Healthy_Pets_-_Rose_Tennent_interviews_Edmund_Sulkowski/Let_s_Talk_Healthy_Pets_-_Rose_Tennent_interviews_Edmund_Sulkowski/Let_s_Talk_Healthy_Pets_-_Rose_Tennent_interviews_Edmund_Sulkowski_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "Let_s_Talk_Healthy_Pets_-_Rose_Tennent_interviews_Edmund_Sulkowski/Let_s_Talk_Healthy_Pets_-_Rose_Tennent_interviews_Edmund_Sulkowski/Let_s_Talk_Healthy_Pets_-_Rose_Tennent_interviews_Edmund_Sulkowski_DOT_flac_00001.flac", 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-{"audio_document_id": "Let_s_Talk_Healthy_Pets_-_The_Body_Shape_Diet_-_Part_2.flac", "identifier": "Let_s_Talk_Healthy_Pets_-_The_Body_Shape_Diet_-_Part_2", "text_document_id": "Let_s_Talk_Healthy_Pets_-_The_Body_Shape_Diet_-_Part_2.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [5430, 9195, 1670, 13565, 982, 14878, 2220, 2150, 5420, 2930, 4030, 9073, 2727, 1240, 1930, 5029, 2971, 4270, 2050, 3523, 12510, 1210, 2870, 2652, 848, 10520, 3730, 2540, 6630, 2210, 1900, 5687, 2613, 1152, 5140, 1520, 8700, 8793, 3150, 2230, 6350, 5810, 3460, 4050, 1950, 3010, 1432, 3698, 16750, 4163, 2720, 4760, 1062, 1188, 9490, 7720, 2410, 3270, 4770, 2300, 1110, 2060, 7500, 4310, 2820, 5750, 8450, 1230, 3430, 7980, 1400, 10120, 6490, 8940, 4230, 2122, 4068, 2240, 5170, 5220, 2510, 9340, 6780, 6580, 920, 8550, 11831, 11539, 5590, 5780, 9223, 2237, 7270, 5940, 2310, 8310, 5100, 1490, 2400, 1389, 1410, 9921, 3039, 5000, 4183, 2800, 3780, 21193, 1437, 18503, 6390, 8729, 1350, 5260, 2090, 12400, 4590, 6890, 2993, 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833, 1606, 3511, 2920, 3480, 1990, 3373, 8127, 10150, 7340, 2629, 4491, 5620, 4850, 17100, 6997, 6263, 3710, 1060, 11727, 1800, 13593, 8881, 6016, 5023, 1380, 2382, 5038, 2730, 1970, 3540, 3410, 2650, 2120, 2860, 3100, 1890, 833, 8357, 5410, 5760, 3461, 5159, 2540, 933, 1851, 1083], "label": ["welcome back i'm dr edmund sulkowski and this is let's talk healthy pets and we're here with our very special guests", "and it's an honor for me to have dr cass ingram here just extruding with information and energy regarding your wellness and the wellness of your animals", "they're the same absolutely", "and this man comes from a point of view of being ill at one time and going outside this allopathic method of treatment and going into what nature has provided and the change in his life was dramatic", "yeah yeah for sure", "and he's so for years now since what ninety six since about well i got sick in eighty nine and since about one thousand nine hundred and ninety four because of the oregano oil i got back on planet earth", "yeah oregano piece of the tree is what i took", "and what's amazing and it happened with myself as well", "when you see the turnaround from bad health or poor health into wellness you just wanna tell everybody", "you become almost an oracle if you will you wanna use that word", "you want everybody to experience what you did and you do a wonderful job of it", "and well i'll tell you this that there was no way i could be with you today and be productive without the oregano oil especially this", "this oregano the material is totally edible", "you can take it daily", "you can take it aggressively", "in my case i had to take about a hundred drops a day the juice and the also the oregamax", "those were the three products that put me back on the planet", "well let me tell you one about well i'm gonna finish up on this with oregano oil", "and this of course is my personal bottle", "this is wonderful for skin infections for hotspots on pets", "orally you know dogs have traditionally a poor oral health condition and a drop of this in the mouth really cuts down on the bacterial effect that's happening and then you can even put it on a tooth ache", "you can put it on a tooth ache", "and of course we're not telling you to do that", "these are personal things that we do that we know that we know that work", "right right", "i must say that whenever i talk about this as my personal view it's just me exuding my enthusiasm about how great this is and how it can save people", "i'm not connected financially to try and endorse it", "yeah everybody knows that's the same with me", "i have no stake in north american spice whatsoever but it's a product that i firmly believe in", "and i wish i invented it", "that's how much i believe in it", "but here is one of my favorite products and this is called sinuorega", "and these two products i never leave home without", "i keep them in my center console", "i keep them when i travel i leave the house and i'm using these things", "this is a sinus spray", "and you know most of these airborne products airborne pathogens i don't wanna say products come in through our both our mouth and our nostrils", "and the blood supply is so rich there that when they come in if our immune system is suppressed for whatever reason we may talk about that", "they take hold and they grow", "this eliminates that from happening", "and you travel on an airplane you're in a group of people you're whatever spray this before you go", "spray this before you go no sickness as far as my opinion is concerned", "but i'll tell you i use this on my dogs in so many different ways", "i had a couple of dogs that developed fungal infections obvious", "they were almost like overnight their ears were great", "and then i saw them go like this and i looked in i have a scope", "i look in and it's full of fungus", "so i happened to have a anal gland appointment at the vet", "so i said you know they have fungal infections oh we'll put some of this solution in there and you wash it out so i'm doing it for six weeks and i'm getting worse all right and i'm religiously doing it you know so i get a little light bulb comes on sinuorega", "mucosal on your sinuses not so different from the mucosal in your ear", "it's safe for your sinus it's gotta be safe for your ear", "so i put this in their ear a few drops several times a day within one day finished", "gone finished", "clean as a bell", "yeah you know and i sit there and go sinuorega like who knew yeah you know i've never heard anybody say use sinuorega in somebody's ears it's the ideal way to do it", "so once a month as a maintenance because you know medicine has become reactive we need to be proactive", "so once a month i drop a drop in their ears", "these dogs have the cleanest healthiest ears", "even when i take them to the vet for a checkup their ears look wonderful", "even just once a month that's amazing", "once a month that's all i do", "50th of a scent a month or something", "if i bathe them and you can always get a little water in there i put that in because that stagnant water can yes it can cause the fungus to flourish", "cause the fungus and these infections aren't bacterial they're fungal", "even sinus infections fungal not bacterial", "right you get a secondary at some point bacterial infection possibly but they're fungal in origin", "well when the mayos looked it in one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine at two hundred and eighty people they found that these were chronic sinusitis", "they'd had surgery", "they'd had multiple years of antibiotics", "they found in like two hundred and fifty out of two hundred and eighty ninety of them had fungal infestation", "they called it pathogenic", "in other words it's like a disease the infecting the nasal cavity the sinus cavities with fungal tentacles of penicillium black mold all that", "yeah those tentacles pillow forms and they actually poke holes in your intestinal tract and cause that dysbiosis or leaking gut", "they cause the crohn's the irritable bowels spastic colon as well as sinusitis you are one hundred accurate on that", "it is amazing that how much damage fungus does to our body", "bronchitis is ninety nine fungal", "they kept going down with the broncoscopes you know in taking cultures", "and they were always getting fungi no bacteria", "but what they say is well you know fungus is among us all the time as doug kaufmann says i love doug", "if anybody doesn't know about doug kaufmann take a look at his website he's a real antifungal guy", "he always says fungus among us well it is among us", "we are from the earth you know so you always get fungus but it's the proliferation of fungus that's the problem and the mycotoxins that it produces", "right so you know it isn't really the bacteria that hurts us or it's the fungus that so much it's the byproducts the waste products", "these endotoxins and thioesters and all of these mycotoxins that do the damage", "it's very damaging", "but the fact that almost one hundred of sinus is fungal the fact that chronic earaches in adults is always fungal and in animal's fungal", "and that bronchitis and many cases of pneumonia even colds coricic congestion clear drippy runny nose that and you have something so simple hay fever as well", "this obliterates all of this but the sinuorega is great because it's a water soluble saline isotonic ideal for the ears", "nobody wants to put anything irritating in the ears and this is against the ear it fights the ear tissue", "i'm gonna take it a step further and i'm not gonna i'm not advising anybody to do this but i'm gonna tell you this is what i personally do", "i will preface this by saying oregano oil does not belong in the eyes all right so that's the one place no matter what form of oregano oil you have avoid the eyes", "but i have a dog abby", "a little sweetheart miniature dachshund audience knows her who chronically gets anal gland infections", "okay even though she's monthly squeezed and so forth but she gets them and they pop up pretty rapidly", "well a little light bulb again", "i say well to me it's almost irrelevant whether it's fungal or bacterial all right because i have a product here that works", "so i say okay sinus sinuorega sinuses ears", "mucus membrane", "that's all the rectum is is a mucus membrane", "same origins", "okay let's try it", "so i take i get a now usually the oregano oil comes with a pointed dropper glass dropper but some of them came for a while with blunted", "blunted ones so yo got both so i saved all those blunted ones", "and i put the sinuorega in a empty bottle oregano bottle", "and i use that blunted dropper and i go half an inch up her rectum", "then your instincts and still and i just drop it in and you know", "and i'm again i'm not telling you to do it you wanna talk about it with your vet go ahead and do it", "but every single time without antibiotic use which takes days for those to come down and the protocol veterinary protocol is we'll try an antibiotic if it doesn't work it's a very hard area for the antibiotic to get to they do surgery and they removed the anal gland which is traumatic forever after that point plus expensive", "frying of that whole situation", "exactly so i dropped this in there and when i say within a half aday to a day gone and she may get it one or twice a year you know so every once in a while you know what i do as a preventative you know so do i love sinuorega you bet i love sinuorega", "do i advocate it and again everybody knows i have nothing to do with north american herb spice", "everybody that i've told about sinuorega comes back to me and they tell ten other people", "wow it's absolutely amazing", "and it's got the sage and bay leaf and along with your oregano or the oregano", "sage is very soothing to the membrane", "well i got to tell you i always advise everybody on that first initial squirt go gentle you know do a few times because it is a burning sensation but you know what's interesting it burns good it burns good", "there is a pediatrist dr fish who has who i quote", "i believe in the cures in the cupboard if not that he's in the miracle of wild oregano but they're both important books", "i would recommend them both to study oregano", "that it's a escharotic agent oregano meaning the p73", "means that it burns the fungus", "you need something for toenail fungus for athlete's foot for ringworm and for the mucus membranes that will root it out", "kind of cook it out if you will but no danger to us", "i'll tell you what i find and i've talked to many people about this", "if i do this as a preventative so i'll take it in the morning", "i'll take it throughout the day", "i'll do a spray off and on using the oregano oil itself orally", "when i'm not", "i'm gonna use the word infested", "if i'm not infested with either any type of pathogen it doesn't burn so much", "you don't even notice the burn", "but when i'm starting to feel a little funny or", "i get a sudden burn that i haven't felt", "it's gonna go where it's needed it's energetic exactly", "and what i'm thinking here is you know bacteria fungi viral they don't have teeth but they eat off of us", "they feed off of us yes they do", "so they drop enzymes", "and those enzymes putrefy our tissues basically the best way to describe it", "and i think while that process is going on that's where that extra burn comes from it could be and there's all that inflammation", "and if you have even an inflamed skin or a burn or a cut initially when you put the oregano oil on you get a little bit of that burn more than you would if there's no wounds sometimes or not but then it goes away", "yeah sometimes i've noticed that and people say can i put that on an open wound and i say well be gentle you know i say maybe start off a little it's burny that actually it's less burny than water", "yeah", "water burns and irritates an openness a scratch a contusion or an abrasion more than the oregano", "and hydrogen peroxide should never be used no that's a carcinogen it's a carcinogen and it stops the healing process actually", "so this is energy", "you know it grows on the mountains up to twelve thousand feet above sea level above the treeline on white rockets", "the flower is a brilliant white every bee every insect every nut descends on those flowers", "it's white lightning and it has that kind of power in your body", "and if there's a little bit of burn to the lightning okay but it's not gonna burn your tissues", "just the bad guys", "we end up getting sick because we get this abundance of a pathogen and then they do their damage", "they do big damage inflammation", "when this takes care of those it reduces that load and then we don't get sick that's right", "so tell us what is this well i'm gonna take a couple of drops five or ten drops right there of the oil", "and then i'm gonna take a shot of the juice which is the hydrosol that comes out of the other spigot when they steam distill it", "mhh mhm mhm", "ah that bite's good yeah", "that's great stuff for physical stamina and energy so it's delivering oxygen it is because the water from the steam binds the oxygenated molecules from the mountain oregano", "so let's talk about why that's important and i'll make mention first", "we are seventy water and we thrive with oxygen", "and we have a certain ph that your cells function at normally", "and i've talked about this in previous shows", "so on that for that miller voltage they function normally at you need oxygen for that to happen", "disease does not grow develop proliferate in an oxygenated environment", "i don't care if it's cancer", "i don't care if it's anything when you're acidic they love it", "and we're not meant to be acidic but our diets the things we consume our lifestyles tend to push us our water even our drinking water tends to push us through this acidic thing", "so something and this is called oregano is something that can help balance that in the other direction and push it in the other oxygenated and molecular oxygen herbal oxygen", "and the reason that's important is that the oxygen from the water is bound to the oregano the oregano chemicals and then that goes into the fat", "so that goes into the brain it goes into the spinal cord", "and you might even notice that after a shot of this even the doctor got more lively", "because oxygen gives you energy", "i take chlorophyll all the time for that reason it's oxygenated", "exactly this is big oxygen because this is twelve thousand feet above sea level", "it's rarefied it's bound to water and water is the solvent that delivers our oxygen through the blood", "and man this stuff goes right into the head and into the nerves into the internal organs and just oxygenates the whole system", "and that's not a medical claim", "it's just a chemical fact yeah", "but i will say that anytime there's something shot with the nervous system how could you get better than something like this to get that molecular oxygen or the oregano oxygen the antiseptic into the brain and into the other tissues case history me you've got a tick right here behind the ear and he's on for a few days you know hunting around the wilderness for stuff right for good things", "and the arm on the opposite side the arm and the leg are paralyzed", "i can't move them i can't walk right tick paralysis", "wow what do i do i pound this i drink a bottle of this a day for a couple of days", "i take a one hundred and fifty drops of this p73 and kapoot it eliminated it incredible", "so our little dog we've got to get the juice for the doggy", "with you know tucker and just got to keep going here", "yeah get the nerves healed", "and we are gonna do that because i've been diligently working for the last four and a half years to get him up and walking again and undo the damage of a basically almost incompetent medical person", "but anyway it kind of triggered something in my mind over here", "you're promoting this wellness and you're talking you've written a number of books all promoting wellness", "have you had any issues with i don't wanna say let's say government authorities or the medical profession because you're talking outside the dogma that we're trained with", "well i can say the oregano gives me so much energy", "i suppose somebody is gonna probably try to slap me down", "it's extremely high in this hertz energy this electrical energy so explain to the audience it charges of the body", "i was hoping i thought everybody would get excited", "government nongovernment layperson professional medical nonmedical", "i mean i'm totally empowered by this", "and it changed my life and saved my life saved your life but it didn't happen that way", "that energy didn't translate into those who are in power who have the monopoly", "who have monopoly over coal tar drugs or petrochemical drugs", "they've got a system in place", "so yeah i got run into and run over a few times", "because you're going outside the paradigm", "apparently so", "i mean it would benefit everybody to use oregano oil to use the p73 to use the juice to use this oregamax which saved me and continues to keep me going", "but no they fought it and they keep fighting it", "are you familiar with dr stanislaw burzynski sure very quickly i'll tell a brief story", "this man was given authority by the fda to investigate a non really nonchemical way using amino acids to fight cancer", "he was under the guise of the and the permission of the fda", "and he opened up a pharmaceutical lab that was producing this and he was getting dramatic results in curing cancers", "and drug companies pharmaceutical industry and the political industry even though they gave him permission went after him", "and over a period i think it was ten years", "i may be wrong in that but i think it was ten years", "our government spent sixteen million of your taxpayer dollars to fight this man put him in bankruptcy spending two million with even though they said no harm was being done", "even though they were he was under their auspices exactly", "and he ended up winning it's so tyrannical", "he ended up winning and the pharmaceutical couple of pharmaceutical companies were trying to take his process from him illegally", "and he's in function today", "he's yeah i know he's helped some people i know of but that's how it was with hoxie", "morris fishbein working for the rockefellers and there for the rothschilds descended on him and said you either give us the formula or we'll kill we'll destroy you and they did", "yeah and they did", "drove him down to mexico you know exactly yeah to texas", "and the human kind has lost because of tyranny", "if we would just have an openness to allow us to learn about culture civilization instead of destroying anything that's in our way you see then this has cost the human race tremendous", "see when you follow the money you follow it and find the reasons", "and we know how our political system is and what's happening with it sadly", "it's all moneybased everything that's right", "the food industry", "gmos for example genetically modified organisms", "proven to be carcinogenic to be undigestible to be toxic yet we're not even allowed to be told anymore whether it's a gmo product or not", "i know i know you know raw milk yeah", "you can sustain yourself on raw milk and never have to eat and you would function and be healthy yet they're going especially the state of maryland going after farmers who are attempting to sell raw milk", "pasteurized milk has more ugh yeah", "more pro it's even it becomes a protein that's toxic to us", "yes and then acts as an anti oxidase enzyme and the skimmed milk how dangerous that is", "and then of course even there is medical use for marijuana", "it was used in ancient greece islamic empire ancient rome to sedate and to and even they used it to eliminate any consciousness postsurgically so people could stay like laying there for a week and heal", "there should be no prohibition about the strategic use of if the states allow that", "if the state representatives say no we'd love to have our farmers provide raw milk there shouldn't be no federal cops involved", "well if you read the studies if you gain access to the studies and you arm yourself and i always preach this we need to take charge of ourselves not put ourselves in the hands of somebody with a scientific medical degree", "waiting for the government to do something as well", "exactly you know and i talk about this", "if i was in practice and told i try to eliminate as much fluoride as i can okay even though i was given the dogma that fluoride does blah blah blah", "but i know it doesn't i've read the studies", "i don't know if ever it was given as study in school no okay", "it was just it was dogma", "it was just dogma give this it does this", "okay well we're soaking in information when we're in school you know and we take it as gospel and it is not", "so i avoid it", "but if i was in practice and i you came into my office and i said you know i don't believe in fluoride", "don't use fluoride toothpaste", "don't do this or that i'm on a chopping block", "what if i was a spy for the american dental association they'd go after you", "they'd go after me", "and if you said mercury is a toxin it should never be used", "they'd go after you", "they'd do something towards you", "exactly", "see that's why i put up also here on this show this writingrevolutioncom", "writingrevolutioncom right which is basically rightandwrong2012com which is great for pennsylvania for instance", "why should we select one of these lackadaisical apathy inducing sameold sameold twiddledee twiddledumb and think we're gonna vote strategically", "when we could vote for someone that says we have every right to have raw milk they should stop the raw milk police get the feds out of our life get the feds out of the socalled drug war the war on tyranny the war on terror that they claim which is they're creating tyranny and terror", "the interventions the bombing and killing the depleted uranium put a stop to it all", "so you have you had ron paul who said absolutely no to all this stuff stop this stop the tsa tyranny and the only one that's actually an honest person", "so people are still saying yeah he was our focused one telling them make him your focus and make the future stop the cheating by doing right in votes you see we could slowly peacefully get the country back by bringing in handfuls of honest people but the way we couldn't do it is because they cheat us in the machines or in the caucuses", "like they did with ron paul they cheated him out of iowa", "cheated him out of maine", "definitely cheated him", "well what's interesting is we should be", "like who gives us this right we should be able to choose whether we want whole milk pasteurized milk raw milk", "whether we wanna go and have a different treatment for if we for some reason developed a malignancy to go have access to our way of thinking or our beliefs but we're denied that", "and it's so interesting is the drug companies have to go through double blind studies to bring a new drug on", "so they give a doubleblind study as they take a placebo i'm drawing out here and their new drug", "and they give it for so long to half the population you know that they're testing and then they reverse it", "so they then qualify quantify and qualify it at the end", "with chemicals used for cancer does not have to be done", "you just have to say we have such and such new new new formula and then it's hid on you", "yeah if they even do the studies", "as you know rozen was prosecuted for faking twenty studies on vioxx and vioxx killed one hundred one hundred and fifty thousand people and ruined another half million", "and they were fake", "nobody even did this studies well here's they got approved with a fake study", "aspirin kills about sixty people ayear", "yeah minimum yeah", "remember the situation with ltryptophan yes that was showa denko's mistake with the gmos", "yeah okay", "with gmos which is critical", "ltryptofan wiped off accessibility", "you can get it now but it was wiped off", "but right after it was wiped off prozac came on prozac the fluorinated", "yeah fluoride exactly", "so is that a conspiracy i don't know", "well you're just a theorist and so am i trying to find out who's behind these conspiracies and the fact that they really do exist", "it sounds like a conspiracy but the usda asked me years ago can you send some oregano oil and rosemary oil we're interested in this", "and then they got it i don't know why i even bothered sending it because it's that same federal autocracy that we need to eliminate", "it's crushing us and has already crushed us", "so they got the stuff and they ended up patenting", "they put a patent on an oil of oregano based food processing product", "it's a film that you wrap luncheon meats in and it's got oregano oil in it", "i gave them the idea the concept that oregano oil is a germicide but yet the same federal government has been trying to attach me to oregano oil sales to making money and going around saying they wanna crush companies and destroy me", "and both the canadian government and the us government have directly said to my face we're trying to find you we're watching you", "we're trying to associate you with oregano oil if they're watching you they're watching me now making money and this type of thing", "yeah so we can destroy you and destroy your efforts", "efforts to make people well", "i had one canadian guy who was a lobbyist for the military industrial complex who said we're gonna get rid of you and put you out on the curb with a tin can", "and that's all you're gonna be as a beggar", "and we're gonna take over the oregano oil business i mean i didn't know herbal medicine was gonna be such a dangerous venture well they're trying to get you to stop with that codex to stop our access to therapeutic doses of natural things", "and therefore the ron paul let all of pennsylvania cast a vote of redress for him for example as an example as a fight", "because here's a guy who says stop the anti dietary supplement", "allow people to say what turmeric does allow wonderful wonderful spice to learn yeah", "oregano oil's a germicide", "yeah exactly you can't say that now", "to end on the oregano oil and so forth i just have a thought came in my head", "and we're just about to wrap up this segment", "i had a dog that was having a tooth issue", "so i was giving her oregano oil directly in her mouth and in her food and everything", "but i hadn't been given it for a while to the other five dogs", "and i made a batch of food had some bad meat in it", "five of the dogs had diarrhea and vomiting", "the dog that i was given oregano oil to did not", "and you triggered that with that wrap of oregano she did not get sick", "she did not vomit she did not have diarrhea", "went on without skipping a beat", "that's the story of life you know so do i witness this every single day of my life it's a life saver", "it is saving lives and it will continue to save lives to the end of time", "and you know what we'll keep the government in check that's what the voting's about", "let's do it doctor we're gonna go to a break right now", "please stay tuned to let's talk healthy pets with dr cass ingram and my little tucker and myself", "and we'll be back for segment part three", "thanks so much", "yeah i think you got your voice across there", "i think so"], "name": ["Let_s_Talk_Healthy_Pets_-_The_Body_Shape_Diet_-_Part_2/Let_s_Talk_Healthy_Pets_-_The_Body_Shape_Diet_-_Part_2/Let_s_Talk_Healthy_Pets_-_The_Body_Shape_Diet_-_Part_2_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "Let_s_Talk_Healthy_Pets_-_The_Body_Shape_Diet_-_Part_2/Let_s_Talk_Healthy_Pets_-_The_Body_Shape_Diet_-_Part_2/Let_s_Talk_Healthy_Pets_-_The_Body_Shape_Diet_-_Part_2_DOT_flac_00001.flac", 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you are tell us your name my name is peter duval", "my daughter laura is a fifth grader at browns river", "mmhmm", "and my concern is about water", "at the beginning of the year she started buying her lunch", "mmhmm and the choice is milk or a dinky little bottle of water for beverage", "recently i learned that the dinky little bottle of water will no longer be available", "and so now only milk is offered at lunch even though the price has stayed the same", "kids that don't drink the milk they have nothing to drink and they have to wait until you know they go to the water fountain i know", "or maybe they have juice or stop on the way in", "it's more likely that they go out of the room and then come back yeah", "after drinking water", "i've already gone through the proper channels in the school here and i haven't really gotten a satisfactory answer about why the school can't provide water to all kids at lunch time mmhmm", "you know it would be a simple matter of providing enough water in bottles", "perhaps a survey on why there's no explanation given on the essential need for water or do like the other schools that i've seen in terms of water and cups mmhmm", "and if you're thirsty you go to the table and you pour yourself a cup of water and you have it with your meal", "so my question is why can't that happen at browns river middle school saves money cuts waste reasonable", "gets water to all the kids who are thirsty including the kids who are bringing lunch from home", "mmhmm", "okay since i'm here i can follow up with it", "okay", "it certainly seems like a mmhmm", "not an unusual or unreasonable request", "hmm perhaps i'll follow up with kevin see if i can get to the bottom of that", "okay", "thank you henry", "then will you get back to mr vale duval yeah i'm peter duval i'm sorry", "okay yeah i can get back to him", "okay so john will check that out for you and you'll hear from him", "great i hope that can happen quickly because mmhmm of course the summer's coming water is an essential thing for the human body but also it's getting warmer mmhmm since they're outside more they're gonna need to drink more water", "can i ask a question yes", "so if there were a bunch of cups available in the cafeteria that would be okay just drinking cups well they would need cups and they need pitchers full of water or you know maybe a cooler because there's no tap or water fountain in the dining room", "okay so john will get back", "we'll get back in touch with you", "thanks", "sorry one more thing", "could they refill their own water bottles from those pitchers would that be all right too i'd be fine with that but they need to have the they need the water access to the water", "right okay there to do it yeah", "but they do need to have the cups because not everybody has water bottles", "other comments from community members yes just wondering what that configuration difference would be then between camel's hump and browns river because last time i was at camel's hump in the cafeteria there's a water fountain literally with the you know shape of the water bottle and you can fill a water bottle at the water fountain", "mmhmm", "so i'm just wondering if the configuration is different i don't know how it actually i don't know if they have one of those automatic water dispensers", "they're trying to raise money", "come to the classes here to purchase one of those it's already been purchased for here", "just hasn't been installed yet okay for the cafeteria yeah for here", "so i'm sure probably but it will be installed in the cafeteria there's one that's gonna go near the cafeteria yeah", "near or yeah", "i don't have the exact spot", "the only thing is yeah if the kids are not allowed to leave the cafeteria right", "and it's not in the cafeteria it becomes a catch twenty two", "well the one in at camel's hump is opposite it's in the cafeteria", "from the lunch line so it's in the cafeteria", "i'll follow up okay that's why i asked on the configuration there's waterline there", "it allows that installation so i was just wondering if that was the case at browns river i believe there is a water fountain in there that's what they hooked them up to", "hello", "we were just discussing water availability for students in the cafeteria at browns river", "if you have something that you'd like to discuss we'd be happy to hear it and we're hear to listen", "yeah you are okay", "we're going to change the agenda a little bit because linda has graciously offered to house some of the music students and has to go and pick them up", "so we're going to move to item three of the discussion on the inside security cameras installation at mount mansfield", "mike do you have information or do you this actually comes as a seconded motion from the facilities committee", "after discussing at our committee meeting getting the feedback that we had asked for and that we are as a seconded motion bringing forward the ability of the high school to reinstall the cameras that they have", "there would be eight cameras placed in the common hallways", "and there's no additional costs except for installation because the machinery and the equipment is already paid for", "okay", "questions for the facilities committee what were the cameras used for before they were installed then there was objections enough people objecting to it at the time that they were removed from the interior areas but they were still kept in the exterior to help cut down on vandalism with the buses", "and what's changed and when were they removed about two months after they were installed", "just removed a year ago two years seven years ago", "seven years ago seven years old", "so we're gonna put in seven year old cameras that still work mmhmm", "that's the plan mmhmm yep", "okay", "could we have a motion as this comes as a seconded yeah this comes seconded this is a seconded motion", "but we need a motion to vote on", "okay", "if it comes as a seconded emotion i don't think we need we don't have to have any approval no we can just discuss and then vote on it", "yes we have to vote on it", "oh i just asked if there was more discussion and no one said anything", "oh okay sorry", "cliff yeah it's been seven years", "in that seven years how many occasions have there been when having those security cameras there might have been useful i'm not sure you know because without them we have to use other methods to try to figure things out", "you know we've talked to kids", "there certainly would be some you know with some of the vandalism", "a handful", "mmhmm i've got more", "thank you", "these would be installed only in the main corridor yes main corridors and lobbies", "so the notion that first responders can see whether some distant wing is clear or not doesn't apply yes it does", "it does because every main so it every main they would point down it would be pointed down the wings okay right", "so you know each wing would be yeah sort of covered by a camera", "we have some small lobbies in different parts of the building", "yeah", "according to the free press", "that's a footnote according to the free press this morning cvu doesn't have any of these and they seem to have survived", "what's different about mmu this was something that came out of the you know the january 3rd facilities committee", "we talked about it at that facilities committee meeting", "this is a tool that", "for me if the worst thing possible happened this is something that allows us to deal with that situation better", "daytoday stuff i mean i'm gonna knock on wood we have great kids", "i don't have you know many times to go back to the tape to see who started the fight cause we don't have many fights", "but for me if that worst thing happened this helps", "well in law enforcement as well", "sarah you've talked to the state police and it could be a local police that it could be a useful tool", "you know richmond elementary has the capacity now", "it's in common areas where because it's webbased the police can see certain spots of the building", "so if there was a threat and they knew where it was then they can go directly to try to eliminate the threat", "yeah which goes to my question", "we only had cameras in for two months in the history of the school", "as to what you know how many instances have there been when you would have needed things you know i can think of one that was", "it was a harassment case where there were two very different stories", "it was in one of the corridors", "and i think it probably would have helped us find the truth in that particular situation mmhmm", "i mean that's just one that i know of", "and i'm you know working at a central office cause we did do a pretty indepth investigation of it", "dave yeah john and i had a discussion about this and in one case where the cameras were installed in the buses", "and there was an allegation made mmhmm that students had been you know shaken or touched on a bus", "with the camera it was shown that the bus driver went back and talked to the students", "at no point did he touch either student", "and so you know it helped to find the facts", "i mean i don't have any objection to these cameras being turned on", "as long as the review of what they're recording only occurs in an emergency or for using to then ferret out what the truth of the matter is", "i don't want it to be surveillance but i don't have an issue with it as being an arbiter as to you know what really happened", "yes would these be on when school is out of session i'm thinking of the hardware fixing it my only experience with cameras is really what happened seven years ago", "i became a little bit of an expert for that there", "the experts with cameras say that once they're on they're always on", "oh so you never turn them off", "they're sort of selftaping over so", "that's a good example chip", "what came to mind we didn't even really know about that was the incident that happened at harwood union", "i've gotta think that if there were cameras that would've help in finding out exactly what happened", "there's extensive amount of damage not to mention the impact on the educational program", "yes i have a few questions", "i don't know who it's directed to but who has access to the video how long is the video stored and is it streamed online access to the video is principal in designate", "stored it's just an estimate", "it's around twenty days", "and it automatically deletes it automatically tapes sort of", "it's digital but it deletes or records over itself", "it's not streamed online but it can be accessed through the internet", "by you or your designate correct by anyone who's got anyone with the password the password could essentially would break into it would live with the two of us and i assume the state police", "we would give you know the state police that as well", "yes go ahead and i can speak from the student perspective", "we've given the student body multiple opportunities to voice their opinions on the installation of cameras", "and there has not been any organized opposal", "and the reason was it was presented somewhat shortly after new town", "and they understood that there unfortunately there might be a need and then kind of the consensus was we don't have an issue with it and let's put them in and hope we never have to use them", "and there hasn't been any from either cougar house", "and maybe mr weston can say that through lunch with the administrators the only thing is there's been questions about where would they go when would they be used how long just similar questions that the board has been asked", "thank you", "further questions comments if not we have the motion but we need to vote so those in favor of the motion presented by the facilities committee indicate by saying aye aye", "those opposed abstained thank you very much", "so we will go back to item number two graduation credits in computer applications", "can i just and on the agenda it says graduation credits", "it's really graduation requirement", "we're not looking at adjusting the credits", "we're looking at the requirements", "so we're not saying we want one less credit or two less credits it's just", "right now it is a requirement of graduation", "thank you okay", "the curriculum committee discussed it", "looked at it and may have a position on that we have a position", "we have a seconded motion also", "we had a presentation a week ago from eric hall who is a technology integration specialist at mmu", "and he basically walked us through the educational process for technology basically k through twelve", "mike weston eric and jen basojourns brought to our attention that this requirement is really no longer relevant", "the middle schools no longer tests for these skills and the elements of this requirement are embedded all throughout the elementary and middle school academics", "so as we move toward each student having their own computer the technology skills are gonna be used throughout the entire curriculum", "so do you want me to read the seconded motion that we came up with yes please", "yes please okay", "the information technology graduation requirement will be sunsetted effective two thousand and seventeen", "the skills in this class are currently being embedded in the k through eight curriculum", "that's fine", "does that sound right yeah mmhmm", "diane why two thousand and seventeen why not earlier because those kids have already met the requirement", "those student have showed yeah", "whenever the students came into the high school they're given their they tested out of it a piece of paper they're given this is what you got for the path to graduate", "uhhuh", "to adjust that on them one way or the other does not seem like the right thing to", "there are very few students we're talking about", "we're gonna offer the course one more time and we won't have to offer it again", "oh so my follow up question is because many of the students sort of tested out of it and did not require it yes", "perfect thank you", "cliff i have the same question why two thousand and seventeen why not next week it'll free up some students calendars so they could do physics instead of which is a great class by the way", "sorry it's a great class by the way", "right yeah", "well as opposed to angry birds i'm not sharp", "students who already have a pass on the transcript cause they have missed they don't have to take it", "school or whatever", "but isn't there's just some way we can get rid of this requirement and grandfather them in they still get credit for it yeah it's not taken away", "there are roughly fifteen students fifteen to eighteen students who did not pass it when the middle school was assessing and are with us now mmhmm", "and if you all wanna change this i'm fine with that", "but going by the spirit of the graduation requirements put forth in policy was that students need to demonstrate", "so these students are not", "these are students who don't have", "aren't part of the onetoone initiative", "they're students who", "the presentation that was given to the curriculum committee dealt with that group of students who have you know who were getting the onetoone having a different education in middle school than some of these other students", "that's why we didn't push for it to be immediately but if that's what folks wanna do i'm sure those fifteen kids would mm", "gladly take another course", "yeah", "or take computer apps as an elective right", "conner now i understand why the current freshmen grid would have to keep that requirement but why couldn't we introduce the new policy to the upcoming freshmen grade yes that's what we're talking about", "we are yeah okay", "by two thousand and seventeen the graduation year sunsetted in", "oh okay i thought you meant that was starting next year the start of like they won't need to do it", "okay thank you it's a requirement yeah", "michael mmhmm", "is this currently embedded in all of our standing elementary schools curriculum as it is now yes", "that what we've been doing whoever's there now yes", "so each one of those are embedded yeah in the curriculum thank you in the school", "all clear i've forgotten the parliamentary procedure for offering a friendly amendment", "just say i want to offer a friendly amendment", "that's all you gotta do", "if that's all you gotta do then that he's done that a lot motion takes precedence over the other motions", "i'm guessing that will be yes", "well until the pending motion gets decided", "i'm not quite sure how i wanna word this but i would like to see this requirement removed as a graduation requirement effective at the close of the twenty million one hundred and twenty two thousand and thirteen year but that the course be offered as an elective in the two hundred and one thousand three hundred and fourteen year", "yeah and i think that i don't know if it's gonna disappear as an elective or not", "we haven't discussed that or offer it as an elective starting in that year i don't care when it turns well it can always be an elective", "yeah right yeah", "that's really a substitute motion but you know just do what you want with it", "there are two issues there it's your prerogative", "you raised two issues", "one is the sunset date and the other was yeah an elective issue", "yeah the elective issue so maybe we should focus that can be followed just on the date", "sorry maybe we should focus just on the date yeah let's", "forget what i said about the elective", "does that fall away so now it is a friendly amendment because it's gonna be eased yes", "so we're no longer assessing these skills right we're no longer assessing to ensure that our students are meeting these requirements we are yeah we just we are assessing so the way it is", "the way it has been sort of prior to the onetoone was mmhmm", "students were taking a course in middle school that focused on these information technology skills", "if they didn't pass this course or they weren't part of our middle schools", "they had to take the basic computer applications course with us that focused on these skills", "with the onetoone rollout this year to make sure the students knew the skills when they needed them we didn't have to wait", "we put it into teaching you know in english class they talk about folders", "in history maybe they would look at powerpoint presentations", "in science they would look at spreadsheets", "it became part of the instruction of the material", "so it's not being directly assessed as sort of a hangalone grade but you can't complete the assignment unless you can do it", "and it's part of the rubrics right exactly and we're doing that really grade two through grade twelve because it seems that kids apply the skills better when they're in context", "and we've already made the port where that's gonna continue next year", "you know we're having some inservice time in june for all 9th and 10th grade teachers to continue this", "and we'll continue to roll it out as the onetoone marches its way forward", "so not assessing by that yeah", "it means we're not having a letter grade on the report card to speak directly to the course", "any questions yeah go ahead", "i'm just confused about procedure", "someone who at browns river learnt about sketchup and photoshop and all that good stuff yeah has been keyboarding since 1st grade or something or other", "does that actually show up on the transcript cause i know if you'd take french i in 8th grade that shows up on the transcript so it doesn't show up into your grade", "it shows up as requirement met", "well just as a p yeah", "or something yeah yeah", "mmhmm requirement met right in middle school or something", "i'm not sure that's happened", "at least it does on the computer system", "so we know they've met it", "it's there cause yeah", "we review you know they have met it", "yeah okay", "no as long as the committee other discussions does not object okay", "if not we did no one mandate do we have to second this friendly amendment we do have to have a second on the friendly amendment", "and what year are we changing it to two thousand and thirteen yeah yes", "the two hundred and one thousand two hundred and thirteen school year", "well is there a second i'll second we're looking for a second", "he said it", "is that an issue john we have two", "so it kind of is right it's seconded", "so if it's seconded then i would wanna say something can i yeah", "go ahead end this discussion now", "yeah exactly can we end it", "can i my one concern with this is once it's no longer required some students who may benefit from taking that course will choose not to take it", "i have fifteen students i'm pretty sure would really benefit from this course next year", "i am worried probably not losing all of them but losing five of them because when they find out that they don't have to take it they won't they won't", "so i understand the point i get it", "but sometimes with fifteen sixteen seventeen year old students it's written down you have to do it works better than it's good for you", "but yeah", "diane whatever y'all wanna do", "yeah my observation after we discussed the two thousand and seventeen and then i was listening to what mike was saying", "i understand completely mmhmm", "and i quite agree with that that you know we could be losing some students who really didn't get what they were supposed to in middle school", "and that would be important and i'm glad to see that it's only about fifteen students", "having had a student that was in ap classes and was told in senior year never passed the keyboarding exam and had to take that", "i'm glad that it's going away for the kids who really need it to go away but there are plenty of kids probably you're absolutely right", "so supporting that", "dave yeah i would speak against the amendment for the reasons that mike has made", "sometimes called mark", "old what's his name yes tyrone is there something is there something that's changing like next year in the integration with the middle schools so next year we won't have fifteen students that would benefit from this course yes what the middle school is doing is changing it", "okay the middle and elementary has changed over the last couple years okay mmhmm to address this", "cliff that's a good point", "these fifteen or sixteen students are they all seniors in which case there's a lot of them", "but next year's seniors i'm already up", "i'm already two next year okay", "we have this year's diplomas", "great we're due next year's", "that's it their end credits are weighted right yeah so the middle schools are moving away from these standalone classes where they're teaching some of these skills", "and what we've done is we've embedded them into rubrics that are actually happening in math and social studies and science and language arts", "so just to go back to the date", "two thousand and seventeen is the incoming freshmen right right so we're including but you're saying they will have already met this two thousand and seventeen yeah they will have", "it would be the first class that it doesn't apply for", "that it does not apply to", "so it'll end in two thousand and sixteen uhhuh", "i am happy if you wanna change it just one", "just give me one more year with it", "i can get everything i need done but we did that to be i thought consistent to students when they came in", "that piece of paper that was given them that graduation plan they've been working on would be consistent so", "but it's your choice", "but what mike's saying is really one year", "if you wanna change it you know you'd wanna sunset it in move it to fourteen like in fifteen", "yeah at the end of at the end of one thousand three hundred and fourteen between thirteen and fourteen okay", "we have the friendly amendment seconded hmp and we do need to vote on that unless there's more discussion", "so those in favor of the amendment as read indicate by saying aye can we review the amendment what the original one no the the friendly amendment should i amend my friendly amendment this is just the amendment", "changed the date sydney unless you wanna unless he wants me to amend the amendment do you want me to read it go ahead please", "you want chris to read it yeah that would help us", "if i read it okay", "all right", "the information technology graduation requirement will be sunsetted effective twenty million one hundred and twenty two thousand and thirteen school year", "the skills in this class are currently being embedded in the k through eight curriculum", "okay amended version", "those in favor yes cliff just one more point of discussion", "how do i withdraw a friendly amendment", "you just say i wish to withdraw and the second but it's been seconded i'm not sure", "then the person who seconded it also has to withdraw their second", "okay i'm happy to withdraw my friendly amendment", "good mike was it you or no i did not", "okay i will agree with that withdrawal", "okay now we're back to the original seconded amendment which indicates two thousand and seventeen yeah this will sunset in two thousand and seventeen", "is there more discussion about that okay i see none", "those in favor of the seconded amendment can't wait to get through this item brought to us from the curriculum committee please indicate by saying aye", "aye", "those opposed those abstaining thank you sydney", "awesome thank you everybody", "you're next okay", "okay and we are eliminating number four", "the approval of the interim tax fees as those are still awaiting definition", "yep i'll bring it in june", "okay conner and hailey you're up", "do you want me to go ladies first", "oh okay ever the gentleman", "so we have the all state music festival", "so we have like four hundred extra kids in our school which is cool", "and i actually went to mmu first thinking it was there and there was just like so many kids outside", "i was like it's probably not here", "then they came here and i was like oh look at that", "but yeah we have prom coming up on the 18th", "i was looking for a cover it's pretty sweet", "me and conner", "uhhuh yeah", "we have a ton of senior stuff that's coming up but those don't really apply to everyone", "so there's no issue about that", "do you have anything else to add the senior play production is oh that's going on", "the opening date i know it's late may but mr weston do you know the opening night date i wanna say it's june uhhuh", "but i could be wrong it's that friday", "i think it's the 31st and 1st", "so 31st and 1st so it's friday and saturday", "that's right what's the name of it let's see i think it's just called the senior play", "no it's are you sure no it's it totally has a name", "it's i don't know", "it's something", "that's gonna bother me it's not on the website", "bring out your date an option", "nobody knows", "i'll email you", "i don't know what the correct name is", "i walk by the sign every darn day", "yeah that's the way it is", "it involves a magnifying glass", "yeah it's probably a mystery", "it is of some sort yeah uhhuh", "i'm on the website too there's nothing on the site and i'm not finding it", "under drama stephanie was there last night and she couldn't find it", "i thought i had an in with and then you could call her", "i'll read the sign when i go pick up my students", "conner you got more than that our dance team just had a carwash that was extremely successful", "i believe i heard it was two hundred and ten", "two hundred and ten yeah", "which i think is pretty good yeah for a day carwash", "yeah", "the spring sports are now in full swing and now even some sports are looking towards playoffs or state meets or state matches", "i'm not sure with tennis is it state match i think so uhhuh", "and i believe that's it", "great", "judy yes yeah", "i just wanted to say for those of you that weren't aware last thursday john mike myself and hailey and conner were speaking with molly walsh in regards to the camera issue", "but i want everyone to realize what amazing student reps we have", "they were articulate", "they were clear", "they answered the questions without hemming and hawing", "and you both deserve a lot of credit for doing it", "so thank you", "yay thank you very much", "good job and this is haley's last meeting", "i'm assuming she's not gonna come on the 13th since that's senior banquet night yeah she's been doing this for two years", "so thanks a lot hailey", "you're welcome thank you", "yeah thanks thank you hailey", "i'm not sure if this would be conner's last or not but conner could you fill them in on i was gonna wait for other business but sure", "last this is exciting", "yeah i was recently just accepted to the united world college program", "the campus that i was offered is in duino italy", "it's about seventy miles northeast of venice", "nice", "in late august i will be leaving for two years to be getting an ib diploma which credits can be transferred to colleges", "and some cannot i might just be a very old freshmen", "but i think the two years in italy will be worth it", "yes but thank you so much for everyone on the board for the experience to help serve with you", "it's been really fun", "and through the people who i hear who are applying for my position i'm leaving you in good hands", "thank you congratulations", "no matter who is selected it certainly is", "that's really cool congratulations", "that's great well done man", "distinguishing honor i'm trying to start to learn italian that's good yeah", "could i just request conner would you tell this board a little bit about united world college sure it is a program that is trying to", "the idea is bring everyone from around the world together that are leaders and give them an academic atmosphere to really further develop", "it's very large into diplomacy", "a lot of graduates do go to work in untype fields", "there are programs or campuses from all over the world", "the american campus is in new mexico", "we've had two students in the last two or three years two years who have been accepted to the new mexico campus mmhmm", "so mmu has a very strong reputation for the program", "they accept fifty americans twenty five of which go to new mexico and the other twenty five are kind of dispersed around the world", "it follows the ib curriculum", "the way it works is you hyperfocus in three subjects and then you kind of like minor in three and then you have a fun one i'm thinking about majoring in", "and it's kind of like majoring", "advanced math physics and to be determined", "not a hundred percent sure yet", "and trying to learn italian it's rough", "i can't roll r's it's a challenging exercise", "good kid", "the honorary president is", "it's just kinda like an honor but it's nelson mandela and i believe the prince of wales", "so it's that's a good combo", "it's a very prestigious institution and program", "and i know that i will be coming back on some breaks and i'm hoping to try to organize a way that i can give kind of a pitch to the student body", "i haven't talked to mr weston about that", "but it's a great program and i think that a lot of people should hear about it because i kind of heard about it through fluke so", "uhhuh thank you", "but when you do come back that's great", "we would like to invite you to come and tell us about it too yeah your experiences cause certainly i was just about to say i would love to i agree", "thank you is it funded again congratulations yes i'm a davis scholarship recipient", "that's tough competition so tuition room and board and basic living expenses are paid for", "that's great wow", "that's really cool that's amazing wow", "mike did you have anything else no i you needed to bring up who here has watched the all state concert i actually realized for those who don't know the all state festival is at mmu right now", "they started yesterday and they proceed through saturday", "tonight is a scholarship concert", "tomorrow night seven o'clock is the jazz concert", "saturday afternoon two o'clock is the orchestra concert", "the band and orchestra", "and then four hundred and thirty on saturday is the choral concert", "it's outstanding", "i spent time walking around listening", "the folks directing are all", "i'm not sure about the jazz the gentleman directing the jazz group but all the others are from colleges", "delaware", "one of the big ten schools i've suddenly blanked on it", "and then a school in virginia", "it's really it's quite impressive", "so if you get a chance", "even if you get a chance tomorrow just stop by and i'll walk you around and you can just sit in and listen to some there's not much on the website about it", "it doesn't have times", "yeah they don't give us much", "oh", "they wanna run it through their website", "oh okay yeah", "they're kind of protective", "and also mike how many mmu students are nineteen participating nineteen yeah", "and how are they distributed two in jazz and then i think we had now is that relevant we had eight", "eight and eight", "or eight and whatever's left", "we have eight orchestra", "so that would be nine choral", "high schools thank you so much", "john so i wanted to i wasn't sure", "i was at a special vote in bolton at our last meeting", "so i wasn't able to attend but we have the committee assignments", "i'm passing those around", "there's a conflict with the next one with strategic planning and finance", "there's some members that are on both committees", "i'm gonna talk with chip and see if we can't get the strategic planning meeting moved", "the finance committee has been scheduled for that for you know almost a year or so", "we'll work that out so we don't have any overlap but i'll pass these out", "question yes we talked about having facilities in may as well", "is that that may be gonna create more conflicts oh i'm just counting the different well let's check", "it's not on the schedule not originally", "we may have to do it on a different night", "okay hmm", "but i'll look a revision", "oh just looking here", "we'll schedule one for may", "okay then appreciate it", "yeah i'll do that oh great", "so can i get it from you during the day so i'm trying to limit the paper", "but i do have the well i'll start with something else here", "i don't wanna get ahead of myself", "i want everybody to pay close attention", "okay so", "merger school district merger options", "sorry set up isn't ideal but good shot it's the only game in town", "it was about two years ago when we had a vote to ask the electorate whether or not they wanted to form a regional education district or a red that did not pass", "here is what the vote count is", "it did pass in four of the six towns", "it did not pass in huntington and it did not pass in richmond", "and recently i'd say over the last couple of months really after the budget process there's been some interest from our elementary boards in looking at what the options are and discussing within boards whether or not they want to look at one of those merger options school district merger options", "so we met about a month ago with all of the elementary boards and i showed them most of the slides that i'm gonna be presenting to you tonight", "we also brought it to the executive committee and the executive committee really asked boards if they would talk about it in their local boards to see if they were interested in pursuing some sort of a merger", "so i haven't tallied where we are with all of the boards", "there is at least one board that has a lot questions and there are probably about three others that i know of that are interested in looking at least conceptually a school district merger", "and we had a good discussion", "folks asked a lot of questions", "i've had a relay communication with vaughn altemas at the agency of education and asked some questions about the merger legislation", "and tonight the purpose of this is to get some directions from the mmu board", "and i think for judy and diane as to whether or not the mmu board can support a school district merger", "it's obviously a very important component of the su and two thirds of the entire su", "i'm not sure exactly what would happen if mmu said yeah no", "and all the other school districts or at least the majority of them said we wanna merge", "i think we'd have to cross that bridge when we come to it", "but i think we'd like to get some direction or some information from the board whether or not they could support school district merger of some of our elementary districts", "is that really an option that this board has seen as we aren't a voting unit i believe", "technically i don't believe so", "technically i think if the majority of the districts wanted an option especially one of them mmhmm", "that pertains to mmu that's the one i think we'd wanna know hear what the thoughts are of the board", "technically i don't believe that they could stop a merger if they had more standing", "if a majority of the elementary boards wanted to but we definitely wanna know what folks think", "so i just wanna clarify that", "i guess i wasn't aware of that", "so you mean you said our board isn't a voting unit well it's not a voting unit in terms of budgets", "we're a unified you're a union school district a union school district you're not a municipality we aren't a municipality okay", "and the voting it's not like we're voting on a mount mansfield or a chittenden east budget", "the voting would be done town by town by town", "okay", "hmm i guess i never actually gave that any thought", "it sounds like it really is the case that all the elementary school boards would really merge with this board rather than specifically rather than just all the boards merging there some other there's options", "there some other options in here so it's almost unidirectional in a way yes but there are some other options in here", "okay", "but one of them is the and this is a mouthful", "i've heard somebody call it mud", "it's the modified unified union school district", "but that one it really does and would impact this board and would impact this union", "so i'm gonna share the details as i know them and as i've learned about them over the last two years", "and then hopefully we can have a discussion and see what the thoughts are of folks on this board", "so in the two thousand and twelve session the legislature expanded some of the options and the incentives for voluntary school district mergers", "not necessarily rads which is the region educational district which is what we voted on two years ago", "but some other options and some joint agreements or mergers of services", "i'm gonna be referring to really act one hundred and fifty six tonight and it offers some supports for supervisory union mergers and some joint agreements between two or more school districts", "for example if you had two small districts that were running their own transportation system they might be able to enter into a joint agreement and run their transportation systems together or facilities management or some shared staffing or actually even enter into an agreement to run a school", "mm", "interesting", "so one of the new options is a union elementary district", "this is if a majority of elementary school districts that belong to the same union school district", "the term is really high school", "ours is fifty eight so it's middlehigh", "our district does pertain to this legislation", "i did check that out", "if they want to form a union elementary district they can merge voluntarily", "they're eligible for study reimbursements incentives and a transitional grant", "each of the school districts that would wanna merge must vote to approve the union elementary district", "if this is something a school district wants to do", "for example if four of our elementary districts wanted to merge they could but each one of the districts the town would have to approve it", "so this is one of the options", "there's another option as well", "this really allows for elementary districts that feed into the same union high school to merge as an elementary district if they want to and districts that don't they don't have to", "so i sent all this as a pdf to folks", "mmhmm", "is it time to ask questions or do we wait till the end you can ask as we go along it probably will be helpful cause the information is dense it's very dense you know yeah there's a lot to it", "so if for example four of our elementary schools wanted to merge would that be merging into one elementary district so we would have three elementary and one middlehigh is that how that would work well potentially you could have say four elementary districts in chittenden east that merged", "mmhmm that would be one district", "mmhmm and then you would have two those are individual that didn't", "they were standalone independent school districts", "and then we would have the unions the mount mansfield union school district which would be five to eight", "okay mm", "in that situation would the merged elementary school district be part of this board no no", "they would have their own board", "and they would have to follow a lot of the statutory steps or almost all of them that we did in the red", "so you have to be in articles of agreement", "they'd have to decide on what the configuration of the board was like", "they'd have to be really based on the electorate portion of the electorate", "then union school district merger", "this is any merger of two or more school districts", "they're eligible for some of the red incentives as well", "consultation reimbursement the transitional grant or five of the base set amount really multiplied by the students in both of the districts up to a max of one hundred and fifty thousand", "whichever is last it can't go over one hundred and fifty thousand but none of the tax incentives", "so the declining tax incentives the union school district merger are not eligible for those", "and this merger again if you had two school districts or three that wanted to pursue this the towns that wanted to do it or bringing it to the electorate", "it would have to pass in all of those towns for it to happen", "so if two voted yes and one voted no", "it doesn't happen hmm", "john yes is this the one where they could combine also with the mount mansfield union high school district no that's another one okay great", "next page", "yeah there are a number of options", "what's important to i think understand is there are so many different school districts in the state of vermont", "i guess for some the thinking was a menu might work for more people", "so does this mean that all of the people that participate in this", "all the districts that participate in this vote would have to say that they wanna be merged or else it doesn't happen that's correct yeah", "okay that's what he said", "now for the modified union school district", "i've heard it called mud", "i'm not gonna use that term", "in passing well somebody called it mud to me today", "this is if all the towns that belong to a union high school district vote to form a modified unified union school district and the merger is approved by the majority of the towns but not all", "i'm gonna call it a musd i don't like the muusd", "hmp a musd is formed", "it becomes the prek district for the towns that vote to approve it and it operates the union schools", "it can earn voluntary merger reimburse", "all the incentives that were a red apply to this merger as well", "the towns that vote against msusd still participate in the union still have representation on the board still send their they're either nine hundred and twelve or five hundred and twelve students to the union district", "however they maintain their own independent school boards", "this allows for the creation of something that would look like a red a prek to 12th district but also allows the districts that don't want to participate to hold their independent boards and still maintain their assets in the union school district and representation on the board", "so if this had been available two years ago the outcome would have been a red except for richmond and huntington which would have had their own boards in the school", "that's correct", "yes but those towns don't get the tax incentives they don't they won't get the tax incentives", "they will get some benefit just because it will influence the tax rate a bit for them", "so they will get some benefit even by the school tax", "even by holding their independent or maintaining their independent school district", "by the reading it says if all the towns that belong to the district vote", "this is gonna maybe sound like a very ignorant question but what is the mechanism that that vote to the elementary boards initiate the vote in that town yes yeah", "if one elementary school board decided that they did not wanna participate and hold a vote then this could not even happen", "no i asked okay", "that question today to vaughn all right", "if you had a majority of the boards of one of them that want to put together a committee mm", "and start the statutory process", "the districts that don't want to they don't have to participate in the committee but the vote still has to happen in the towns", "okay which sounds fair", "reading that it's really not what that says you know but i don't know", "so it's if all the towns that belong to the district vote well they all have to vote", "so that was my question", "couldn't it be that one town just decides not to hold a vote nope", "not if a majority of the school districts want to pursue this", "the majority i see", "but you just said that forces the vote for the other towns is what you're saying", "yes that's correct", "huh okay mmmm", "so that would put it back into the other category of the union elementary district like maybe i'm not something along those lines maybe i'm misunderstanding what you're asking", "okay if we have four of our elementary boards that wanted to pursue this", "mmhmm two boards can't say we're not gonna hold the vote in the town", "it has to be voted on in every town", "so you couldn't have one town that said no we're not gonna hold the vote", "okay okay i mean all right", "we can talk about it later but they can still vote no yeah they can vote no", "which would put them into the category of independent boards right", "no no no i think it's fair", "i'm just wondering the political process where a bunch of towns can force a vote in another town altogether", "that that's what happens", "that's my understanding yeah okay", "i mean i asked no i believe you", "yeah mean i asked i'm just asking", "this specific question today", "i asked what if one town says no right no we're not doing this", "huh okay", "and they said the answer i got was they can", "okay conversely simple as that", "the town that doesn't vote that decision is made by five people", "well i mean i think probably people might just for the vote still come out and vote", "yeah no seriously i mean mmhmm if richmond decides they don't want to participate that decision is made by five people for the town to not participate in a vote hmm", "i just kind of find that interesting", "well that's their job that we talk about it as yeah that's the way it works", "we do that all the time expressing the town's wish", "i just find it interesting that's all", "but wait a minute i thought yeah", "you said they all have to vote they have to vote no no i meant in the ones where you had an option you're trying to create a majority or a yeah of not right", "right and i just think it's they don't have to participate in the committee or they can right", "but if a majority of the elementary districts wanted to pursue this then one town can say we're not gonna hold a vote", "other questions yes john has the law including the modified union district as it was passed by the legislature last spring has that undergone any technical correction i'm not aware of any no well if that's the case then people might ought to know that on page two thousand two hundred and thirty nine of the journal of the senate of may 5th two thousand and twelve it says that establishment of a modified union school district shall one dissolve the union high school district and any assets or liabilities held by the union high school districts shall be transferred to the modified union district and two dissolve the elementary school districts that voted in favor of establishing the unified union district and any assets or liabilities they held as individuals districts shall be transferred to the modified union school district", "in other words if you vote as a town not to participate in this you'll lose your assets in the high school", "we used to call that stealing", "no they're still represented on", "that's not what it says here", "well then there's gonna have to be some guidance legally around", "when i asked the question okay the independent districts that are part of the union do they hold the assets that they hold you know hold in five hundred and twelve they said yes", "okay because they're represented", "it says it right up there", "if you vote no the towns that vote against the musd still participate in the musd by sending children to these new schools and are represented on the school board", "so they'll be represented on the board the new board that holds all the assets", "it doesn't say that in the law", "no if the town votes against it they wanna remain independent right their high school assets get transferred to the union board which they sit on", "they would be sitting members on that board as well which is what it says right here", "then they still hold the assets", "in the same way it's taken them yeah", "yeah yeah that they do right currently", "right but they wouldn't", "we'd have to separate what those assets are", "we do now", "and so there would have to be a separation between the five hundred and twelve and the prek to twelve", "john yes", "doesn't that create that that new board an unequal representation because the towns that choose not to join in actuality would probably have greater representation i mean you take a town that currently has two members on this board", "they would still continue to have members mmhmm but in the new board a town may only have one member that may be of equal size", "so isn't it possible then that the representation becomes disparate as a result mmhmm that's up to the committee that's putting it all together to iron that out", "how many members and all of that it's possible", "anything's possible until all that's designated and figured out uhhuh", "yeah but i mean if you're gonna say they maintain their representation then i'm presuming they're maintaining their current purpose", "yeah i think that but it's a new board hmm that's gonna happen", "i think the board", "this is my understanding it's different than a red that the board would remain as it is", "this board potentially would expand its role to prek to twelve for some schools", "the representation would stay the same", "there would have to obviously be some procedural structural requirements around what's voted on and what isn't", "i mean because here's an example", "so this is where i think it could get complicated", "you could yeah", "that's what we think", "it has", "this is what we've come to bye lindi here's it now say that underhill center hypothetically we merged into a district and they wanted to start a public preschool", "it wouldn't be fair for necessarily huntington to be voting on that", "so there would have to be some procedural pieces that are put in place so that if it was something that pertained solely to prek to four i don't wanna pick on huntington but bolton they couldn't vote on it if they had their own independent district", "oh okay yeah", "i don't wanna divert you but i do wanna comment on your example because i think it's something we should all think hard about", "part of the reason that i think we ought to be thinking very hard about organizing a single school district that is responsible for all our children and all our tax dollars throughout the communities that are now part of mount mansfield school district is that we all have an equal stake in that education of kids from prek through twelve being successful", "now the way you phrased your examples you said that town that is out doesn't really have a stake in that particular decision", "the reality is one of the things that frustrates me about current organizational structure is we in this board are not talking about and never talking about the prek through grade four issues that at some point are going to impact mm the success of our students", "whether or not my community has voted for some form of unified school district i still believe that my real community which is the mount mansfield school district because we really are a community dedicated to educating all of our children together and managing all of our tax dollars together", "has that same stake in that decision because ultimately it doesn't end when the child leaves 4th grade it continues throughout their educational career", "and i think my greatest frustration with our organizational structure right now is we don't sit down as a community and talk about these issues with prek to twelve", "and that's really what would be my goal if we pursue this because i think that we're missing a lot of opportunities to improve how we think about educating our students and also to be efficient at it as well", "yes you're looking to me yes", "to your point", "one of the issues i see is the fact that unless you have all the elementary school boards involved in the district", "all the towns belong to one district or red whatever you wanna call it musd", "then you lose the ability which i think is one of the big points about this as having a consistent curriculum through all of the elementary schools", "so that when they enter the middle schools each of the you know kids has had this equal education opportunities up to that point because they're fairly disparate now", "mmhmm", "unless you have everyone on it involved if you still continue to have some elementary schools that are not part of it then you don't have the ability to create a curriculum you know throughout the entire chittenden east district that would give you a consistent education and a uniform education", "and then also you'd lose the ability you know from the aspect of you know like sometimes you have to reduce staff in one school", "and that was pointed out as one of the advantages", "well if you don't have all the schools involved that gets limited as well about being able to", "you may have to lay someone off in another school you're hiring someone", "you know you can't move people around which has advantages and disadvantages to the teaching staff", "i mean those are the things to think about", "i understand you know this allows people they believe you know a voice to do something on their own", "you know without all the towns choosing to participate but at the same token you're losing out on some of the things that really would work if all the schools were involved", "you know since i've been on the board which has been since gotters dwight gotters yeah", "the conversation has been about professional development", "the conversation about professional development has focused on consistent curriculum from kindergarten before there were kindergartens 1st grade through 12th grade across the district and focusing on the transitions", "there was a time that it was a very difficult transition for kids going from elementary schools to the middle schools and the middle schools to the high schools", "and i think that as we've talked about professional development you know the consistent curriculums in math the consistent curriculums in language arts are being built in to our curriculum and there's a lot of focus on that", "so i think you're sort of shortchanging the district david when you might be bad for calling me david i know that just slipped out", "but i think you're short changing the district when you talk about the district curriculums", "if you have a central school district like burlington where you have a number of elementary schools", "every 5th grader in burlington does not have the same agenda", "i mean the same overall agenda but not the same lesson plan every day", "you're dealing with individuals", "you're dealing with individual teachers", "and i think that the standards and i think the core curriculum will address some of that as well", "well and i think it's more resources than curriculum", "i'd say it's the resources that are different", "the curriculum is common and pretty solid and it has been for the last several years", "it's really about the resources and implementation and the differences in the amount of money that can go to professional development and embedded professional development and technology", "it's different across the board", "so there are differences and that does affect student learning", "and in fact students success over the long run", "i mean when you have one district that may have a surplus and it could have been used in some different ways to help offset a deficit in another place there's some real benefits to that to the taxpayer and those are some of the hidden i think", "and that is acknowledging that i respect everybody's opinion too", "you know i understand that this is a very important discussion and that there are people that are very passionate about it", "but here's a couple of the realities that are setting in right now that i think it's important for me to share with you", "we have some of our small school districts they're in a really tough position and they're gonna be forced to either do some sort of merger or you know god forbid in my opinion you know tuitioning of students or something because their budgets will be dismantled over the longterm because of our edfunding structure and some of the legislation that's in place right now", "excess spending threshold it is punitive", "and they're talking about lowering that and it's gonna catch up to every one of our small school districts very soon", "they're talking about getting rid of the small schools grant", "they're talking about getting super majorities if budgets exceed inflation one", "and you understand that when you have a small budget there's volatility and there's volatility based on a few kids that move in and out because of edspending for equalized pupil", "so they're in a really tough spot", "really right now it's bolton and underhill id which you know you had act eighty two that applied to id", "and then bolton you know they had a budget that failed which is the first time i think anybody can remember", "and i think right behind them is going to be underhill center and huntington and jericho and then richmond", "richmond is probably in the best position right now", "so there are things that are happening that are beyond the control of boards that are really pushing this conversation", "yes in your opinion what is the benefit the state is seeing to push these things i mean it sounds like moneywise right they are looking to save themselves money and not spend it mmhmm", "why are we going here what's going on well i think they're really low", "there's a big movement in", "and again i mean please talk to your legislators", "i'm getting this from people i talked to and what i read and the interactions that i have", "but people are looking at an economy of scale and it's not just vermont", "it's states across the country and some internationally they're really struggling to fund some of the small schools because they are expensive", "right but they're still gonna have a small school right in a red yes potentially", "potentially and so where yeah", "where do we shift resources we just take them out of high school to keep those little ones afloat or we close them right i mean those are the options", "i mean we're not talking about saving a tremendous amount of money", "we're talking about economies of scale but that's certainly not on the order based on our ed you're right", "i mean we looked at it there isn't gonna be a windfall of money by merging in the structure that we have right now", "yeah", "there are some efficiencies so and there are some structural pieces that over time might save money mmhmm but it's hard to define what those are mmhmm", "but really the way that i have the funding system is set up as sort of what and some of the incentives i think are part of it that are influencing and impacting communities", "if we kept the structure just like we have it now there isn't a ton of money to be saved", "sorry i'm just gonna follow up on the question", "i'm still not clear about really what the formation of the district would serve in that case of the modified union school district so we're not gonna save a lot of money but you're saying that the reason to do this is because of these sort of impending financial dilemmas", "well some of the legislature is perpetuating it for sure", "right no but if we formed you know a red or an musd mmhmm", "i'm still not clear on how that would solve the problem that you're describing for the elementary schools well their equalized pupil would go up immediately", "yeah like bolton", "and with the incentives i could answer that", "and i have a slide in here i'll get to that shows what some of the savings would have looked like for some of the smaller school districts", "yeah maybe i mean right now bolton is the number one school in the state for excess spending okay", "there's no school in the state that spends more over the base amount than bolton is", "and our taxes on the slide john will show you right instead of going up two hundred and thirty six would have gone down seventy seven because when you've got a pupil count of sixty eight it's hard to lower your pupil spending", "it's really tough and there's some other things", "i wouldn't say defend but really outline some of the things that bolton can't control", "they are in chittenden county", "they're tied to a contract that is much different than you would see in washington west which is right across the you know right across the line or in addison or in franklin", "they have a demographic in their staffing that is at a place in their career that their salaries are higher on average than you know other districts", "and so those are some of the things that they're influenced by that they don't really have any control over", "but merging would really have a big impact on their equalized pupil spending pretty quick if not immediately", "and id as well", "which would i'm just trying to clarify then that would essentially just address the tax issue mm yeah okay all right", "we wouldn't see a huge savings you know in the overall budgets right okay all right", "i mean i think of all people", "well i've said that over and over again that we wouldn't see a huge savings and there are some savings that we could not define and the committee was real clear about that as well", "what i see as the benefit is expanding some student opportunities for students flexibility in the way we use our building", "those are the things that i think are the big benefits from a merger and looking at sharing more resources", "you know those are the things that i see as benefits", "john when you say sharing resources that means we're also sharing staff yes right", "that's a big deal that would help a lot of our students yeah", "yeah i mean every year and this is an example", "every year or not every year but often we'll have a school system in one of our districts that they're on the edge of whether they want or they need a rif teacher or not and they're looking at the next year", "and then the next year it looks like they're gonna have you know an uptick in their population", "and then you have another school district down the road that is debating oh my gosh you know we need to hire another teacher", "and yes it would have to be some reconfiguration and this is just me saying this and this is from my perspective", "as somebody that has followed and been involved in school district budgets for the last fifteen years with boards", "i think sustaining ten kids in a classroom is not possible anymore", "we have done it and school districts have done it in our system and across the state and i just don't think that's possible anymore", "so we're gonna have to really be looking at resource allocation", "so do you wanna go to twenty six students or thirty students or do you wanna have class sizes of fifteen i mean those are some of the questions or fourteen or thirteen that we're gonna be grappling with over the long haul", "yes if we went to an mmuussd opportunity would that also allow us to determine the placement mmhmm of 5th graders easily could we say that the 5th graders belong", "if we decide they belong better in the yes if every elementary school if every school district that we have now was part of the unified union yes", "what if four of the six would then no no", "oh okay that's different", "yes the one thing that you know the legislation", "to me it's unfortunate in one aspect because the legislation is looking more of dollars and cents than it is looking at the quality of education cause the quality of education in the state of vermont is very good", "you know to compare us to other states is unfair because we do a much better job and yes it does cost more money", "you know and it's dismaying to me and it shows a lack of", "an expression my father used to use a lack of intensive fortitude that the legislators in vermont are not grappling with the essential question which is funding of education", "they run away from it consistently instead of looking at you know some sort of broadbased you know income tax", "and instead of sticking with something that was created in the middle ages you know in terms of how we fund education", "and i understand that that's not gonna be changed in the next two years but that's the question", "i mean that's the question that needs to be addressed in that", "and it really bothers me that they just don't seem to have the political courage or the educational vision to deal with it that way because what they're talking about they're just talking about dollars and they're trying to move that off their plate", "they don't wanna deal with it anymore", "you know they're saying well this is gonna be forced out to the districts", "we're gonna make you do this in some fashion if you don't do it voluntarily", "and that's not a way to affect change in education", "well it feels like the legislation and again this is me talking", "it's pushing some of this because you know what isn't healthy is when you have budgets that don't pass mmhmm", "you know year after year that's not healthy for a school community that's not good for your property values", "it's not good for anybody", "you know you've got communities and you've got boards and you've got systems that are really trying to look for ways that they can preserve what they have", "i just wanted to point out we're talking a lot of dollars here too", "and if we merged the districts it would help the students", "we wouldn't have students coming from struggling districts who are having trouble getting their teachers merging in with students where there's schools that have you know enrichment programs and math specialists and all of that and all the kids come together", "it's harder to teach that classroom when you have kids that have had all the extras and kids that have not", "so i think that we're looking at dollars too but we need to back the kids as well", "i'll give you another example", "real example sequestration", "so we've got these qualified school construction loans", "it doesn't affect them at mount mansfield but it does affect jericho and richmond that they were supposed to get a zero or really low interest loan on their qualified school construction loans", "well they're not funding those qualified school construction bonds", "so they're gonna have interest that they have to pay that they didn't know about mm", "and while you know i haven't seen the final end of year estimate but mmu is probably gonna have a surplus", "and so you've got these districts that are running these deficits", "some of them they have no control over it", "who could have predicted that nobody hmm", "and then you have another district in the same su that is gonna be running a surplus", "and so you have this district that right off the bat they've got to raise the percentage of their budget and their tax rate", "right off the bat without doing anything", "and it could be things that they have no control over", "and then you'll have another district that will maybe be able to reduce the impact of the tax rate", "so maybe it comes out in the wash but it really it's getting more and more difficult for our small school districts to present budgets that don't look like there's a huge increase in the tax rate increase from year to year", "allison i don't who is allison yeah and unfortunately john", "unfortunately i think for some people that that is like the whole point", "i was in montpelier today and i had a discussion with a few senators about exactly the thing that i think clark was talking about", "the fact that our central problem really is the way education is funded in vermont with a regressive tax structure and many of these people are actually aware of that", "i don't know just what will be done to try to change that", "it's really important i think to separate the issues of what can we do as a community", "how can we work together to provide the best education how can we utilize our resources in the most efficient way so that everybody can benefit to the maximum amount that's possible", "how can we do that and then the other side of that is the law that was passed supposedly to permit this or to encourage it has some very serious legal flaws in it", "some real snags which actually i think are constitutionally threatened", "i have written a little piece on it a one page piece on it that i wrote a little while ago but i'd like to point out a few things about this law", "there is an accumulation of five hundred and fifty thousand in rewards for research which favors redistricting which is also paid for by public funds", "a financial reward for a predetermined result of research renders the research invalid", "if research obtained in this manner is used to persuade voters and administrators then it's frightening to think of the implications this could have on the merits of the issue", "now i don't know what research is available that we can find but i'm working on it to find what has happened to the quality of education in some of the states that have already done redistricting like maine and massachusetts", "i'm familiar with some people from those states who think that it was a paramount mistake", "some of the technical problems regarding this newly modified red which is the section seventeen on this law that we're talking about", "the way the law reads if the majority of towns vote for the red and a minority vote against it", "those who voted for it will by default wind up in a modified red", "some citizens might favor a red while not favoring a modified red", "this is very confusing to the voter and creates an ethical dilemma because of the unfair division of assets", "either in losing whole account assets which i think you're not interpreting the law in the way it says or in taking assets from the neighboring town", "because it looks to me and anne o'brien the richmond representative when she read this she was absolutely horrified", "she went running to montpelier and found out that it couldn't be corrected until the next session which is like taking place now", "the constitution says that election shall be free from corruption", "when you use public funds to reward people who vote for a certain agenda that's bribing votes essentially", "i think that's a form of corruption", "and i think that when you have a law that is supposed to further education it sounds like it's about education but it has these kinds of problems and implications in it", "i think this is a danger to our democracy and i think we need to ask the legislature for a better law", "and for that reason i think it's unethical to try to bring this matter to a vote in this community at this time", "first thank you allison", "what some of our board members are also saying is this that their community voted for it and they have a duty to bring it back to their electorate", "so that's the position of some board members in our elementary districts", "yes all of that aside cause there's a whole lot of emotion and a lot of concern about sort of everyone's private town and private school and everything", "and i really go along with what michael had said earlier", "this always for me was about how we can expand the opportunities for our kids with these small schools set in separate spots", "whether we save money along the way you know whatever the laws were were really not in the forefront certainly of my mind when i saw you know what we could do", "and i keep thinking about the successful from what i hear experiments that have been done", "they're not experiments", "what they've done in burlington with having unique you know academies", "kind of the magnet schools that could teach in a different way that could meet different needs", "and so that we could have options for our kids that maybe don't do as well in a traditional setting or would like to be in the arts academy or like to be in more of a sustainability or science academy", "it just looked like we had so many more options if we could form a group together", "and the other piece of it is regardless of how much we've done with the curriculum", "i think i had read that sorry that some of the bolton kids were coming in to the middle school less prepared", "i mean we still have disparities on how we reach our kids", "so i still think it's all about what we can do for the kids and how we can be creative and be ahead of the game", "whether or not they're gonna throw incentives at us to me is not the point", "well that was the point of the committee", "and that's where we tried to focus as best we could on", "you know and i share some not all but some of allison's instincts about this", "there is reason to be wary when state government says here's the money this is what we want you to do", "there's reasons to be wary", "but focusing on that for me is just looking at the wrong question", "for over forty years all of our communities have formed one community for the purpose of educating our children between grades five and twelve", "we're one community for them and we're one community for managing tax dollars", "we care as much about the kids", "even though we're representatives of richmond", "i know from just listening to you on the board you care as much about the kids from underhill and huntington and bolton", "and i think that's true for everybody on this board", "that was i think at the time that it happened there's probably no institutional memory", "that was probably a bold experiment for those people because they were getting together outside their towns to form this district to make this work", "and i think the reason i can say it's worked is i think all of us now we're not perfect but that this school district does a good job educating students and it does a good job managing tax dollars", "sure we can do better and that's our aspiration but we're a community that works", "you know why given that we know this community works for our students grades five through twelve", "given that we know it's an efficient organization why would we say okay here's gonna be our system we have one community great enough to handle everybody grades five through twelve", "and we're gonna have six other communities with disparate resources different abilities to deal with circumstances and relatively small amounts of dollars", "so that if something happens they really don't have wiggle room in their budget", "we're gonna make you responsible for everybody who is prek through four because we think that serves the local control or it's the way we've done it", "i just don't think that argument resonates", "i think what makes sense for us is to think hard about we really ought to be one community for all of those students whether it's prek through twelve", "and we really ought to have the ability to provide all of them with the opportunities to provide all of the efficiencies that i think are in that model and that's really what drives me on this", "it would be nice for somebody who is pressed on property taxes to see us some savings for a couple of years", "but that to me is not a decision because it only is for a couple of years", "to me the real question is does it make sense to have this mount mansfield community really assume responsibility for all our students so that we really are not divided in that anymore so that's the way i look at it", "i feel like in a way that's kind of arbitrary because if we follow that train that argument to its final conclusion", "then why don't we have one board for the whole state like all the boards right all care about all their kids as equally as we care about ours", "are interested in you know the taxpayers money and their education", "but the point is there is a value of having a small unit access for your town to access government be involved in that tight local you know granular way", "and there's also a benefit to what you're saying where we come together as a high school and we share things and we go back and forth to our towns", "having both i believe provides a synergy", "taking away that smaller step i think there are things that would be lost as well", "may i respond just briefly and then you'll knock on with it", "i don't think anybody's in charge", "we're free flowing", "yeah again i think that's a valid point to think about", "i really i don't think that that's something that anybody even me i wouldn't dismiss it", "what drives me though to reach the conclusion i have is that i kind of think this mount mansfield union school district is in some respects the just right stance", "all of our political towns have already formed that one community where we work together", "i think it's a model that we know can work among all of our political tenants", "and if somebody were coming to me and saying the suggestion is that all of our schools be merged into a chittenden county school district or that the chittenden county school district supervisor unions be arbitrarily reduced by half and that you have to join one of those bigger supervisory unions", "i'd be much more resistant", "i just think that we in our communities together have that track record of working together and forming that community that really can provide that level of local control", "but having said that i think it's a valid point for us to think on mmhmm", "cliffe was no conner was ahead of me", "oh okay", "i understand i'm sixty and not taxpayer so you can kind of take it with a grain of salt", "like to your point about if you take the same logic and apply it to the state i think the education that happens in rutland doesn't directly affect mount mansfield", "but because all of these elementary schools do eventually funnel into this one board the decisions that are made on these local towns do eventually impact mmhmm", "the school the mount mansfield", "and it is true that the curriculums of elementary schools have been much more standardized so that there's less challenge from school to school", "but to the point of the student that's elementary school was every single year not sure if their teachers would have a job i think that would have an implication", "and because we're the size that we could have all the students that would become part of this one group come together realistically", "and we can still make decisions on towns that eventually will impact the board that already is in the state", "yeah i appreciate the point about local and you can understand the historical way this developed", "you know there's no longer an elementary school on upper english settlement road or an irish settlement gabriela and so on", "the populations change transportation corridors change", "in fact we've got one that runs north to south through the whole district", "i'm a big city kid but i have some small town experience and i think the population of our five towns is on the order of what seventeen or eighteen thousand right around there yep okay", "about the size of my father's hometown of hannibal missouri which has one high school one middle school", "it's inconceivable to me that the town of hannibal would have eight separate school districts with eight separate funding mechanisms eight separate tax calculations", "it's separate staffing arrangements and so on it doesn't work that way", "my cousins tell me it work just fine the way it is with one school board you know for eighteen thousand people", "it just seems to me that although i would not want a statewide school board that in this situation the efficiencies the relief of pressure on small schools which are scarcity viable to sixty eight students vastly outweigh considerations of locality for the prek to four", "since as michael points out were already consolidated after that", "just seems like an odd camel that's been constructed here", "jeff i think and just an observation", "i think ken and michael are talking about two sides of the same coin", "that being of trust in terms of a four year relationship with five towns that we trust each other to act in each other's interests", "whereas correct me if i'm wrong", "the voice of ken and allison voicing some skepticism as to taking that to the next level", "but that we're not able to go the full measure because we're not sure whether that trust is going to extend to the full thing", "we can say well we've got k through four under our control", "you know that's really the important developmental age and then we'll allow it to go to the greater common good if you will", "i'm not saying i have an answer", "i'm just saying what was more arbitrary was the brigham decision because that came down from the supreme court and that was about you know equal access to education", "and so you had stratton paying nineteen thousand a kid or whiting having three thousand", "that was arbitrary", "you know the gold towns all got multiple formulas and over time it's changed", "vermont was the community", "the statewide community that wouldn't work in", "i grew up in new york", "there's no way that would work in new york at any level at any subset", "so the question is where do we extend the trust are we going to trust that this board or any board is gonna work in the interest of all the kids based on an existing bond if we didn't have that i think this would be a massive leap but we're in that", "we're in that no man's land right now", "we do have a choice", "we could still choose not to do it but we do have a choice", "and i think that puts us in a unique position to weigh all these factors", "it doesn't make it any easier", "i come down on the trust issue and that's where we need to work because that's what's gonna happen going forward", "we're gonna need to trust each other", "to be clear for me it's not about trust", "i think that this school and the system can run perfectly well without any of us here", "and probably you know that would be fairly freeing", "i mean", "however it shakes out i think we will continue to have a successful school", "however i think part of the reason that we can have that kind of trust is because we do that work thoroughly throughout our communities", "and i feel like having that smaller step is part of what makes you trustworthy for the rest of the towns", "because i don't know", "there's something to be said about i don't know having your elementary school", "that might be the focus or you know i might be wrong but it seems like in bolton that elementary school is central right to their community there", "and in a way that if it was removed it's gonna be very detrimental to them", "that doesn't mean that that's not what should happen", "that doesn't mean that's not what's best for the kids", "that doesn't mean i'm just saying they should be the ones to decide what's right for that", "as opposed to the rest of us that's all", "i guess i have to disagree okay", "i spent twenty five years working in small schools and i've heard this argument over and over and over that the school is the center of town", "we can't exist without it", "twenty five years in a small school the only people that came through that school during the school day were parents which was sometimes eighteen of the population", "the rest of the town did not come through that school when the school was in session", "yeah it's a nice building to use for the rec league at night and for your meetings et cetera et cetera et cetera", "that doesn't change whether it's one board for the school or one board for the district", "the building's still there for the use by the community", "but i just don't see this the town lives for the school", "the parents who have kids in the school when the kids are in the school it's the center of their life", "when the kids come to the 5th grade the middle school becomes the center of their life", "when they come to the high school the high school becomes the center of their life", "the building's still there for the use by the community", "the other thing that struck me as we were talking about this is i like probably many of you did not grow up in a state that had any kind of system like this where there was a single board", "it was a county system", "i feel like my education where it got me how involved my parents were in the community how involved we were with the school was the same", "the same pto the same you know complaining about things the same involvement in cleaning up and caring about coming to field days and participating", "so the community is not we tend to think because this is what we know that it's linked to the size that we have existing and that's a state of mind", "it's a bit of physicality but it's also a state of mind and it can be expanded so", "i think something that was missing from the previous discussions of the red were the comments from the principals", "i didn't hear the principals step up and say this is how it will affect our school", "i wonder why we didn't hear from the principals and during this discussion what benefit that might have to community members to hear what the principals feel about how we would there were some that had spoke", "i was gonna say yeah i mean we had some i was a member yeah of the red group last time mmhmm", "and i actually went and talked to principals at the schools and brought their opinions too", "if they weren't coming we did that", "we went to the schools i think right dave everybody talked to the principals", "i think the public needs to hear that", "they should have an they had the opportunity", "they just didn't come to the meetings", "right but how many meetings they didn't speak up", "do you want them to go cause they had a lot they have a lot yeah", "i didn't hear any of the principals i think", "none of them said that they were against some merger", "in some ways it would make their life more efficient and help them to focus more on what's going on in their school instead of what's going on at the board level you know i asked cindy mac at the time to speak up and she said that she's not been asked to so she won't", "but i think that we should ask the principals to go public about their views on how it will affect their schools because that would sway the popular opinion on the benefits of this or not", "make it more public", "david dave sorry dave were you referring to me no they're not", "that's not even my real name", "whatever johnboy", "yeah", "yes the guards are coming", "i know that this discussion is sort of free flowing", "i guess where are we going and i mean this could go on for a long time and you know i'm not as young as it used to be", "and i'd just like to put a little structure into this so that we can see a conclusion to this discussion", "so i have a couple more slides", "okay let's do them", "yeah and we'll go to it", "i'm just gonna keep going here is a advantage", "four years of decreasing tax incentives", "you folks know that for some of the merger options the union merger districts can receive a transitional facilitation grant of up to one hundred and fifty thousand or five of the base set amount multiplied by the combined enrollment of the merging districts", "there's one hundred and fifty thousand transitional grant for some other merger options and five thousand for early exploration or feasibility studies for two districts that might wanna merge but don't know if it's viable", "so here's a chart trying to help you just see what the summary of what the reimbursements and the incentives looks like in the merger type", "the red is on the top", "the union elementary it's not really a red", "you can see what the incentives are", "good mmhmm", "and i included this slide just as an example of what it might've looked like with an 8cent tax incentive", "the most important part i would say is really focused on what would probably make the most sense would be here and here with nonred", "this is based on one hundred thousand house and then with the red", "john yes", "whenever i see this i always wonder these tax incentives go away in a few years", "right they do so for me the real question is four years what would the tax savings be you know when the incentives are gone are there any tax savings hard to say", "i mean i would just request when we talk about this and present it to the public or whoever does that's a really important issue", "and it goes to what alison was saying", "i wouldn't want the public to be miss or misunderstand that those tax incentives are only lasting just for a short amount of time", "when they decline too", "yes right and they're public funds", "so i think it's just an important thing that the public knows when we discuss it that's the only thing", "if especially you say that we don't even know if there'll be lower once the incentives go away right right we've been right okay", "we'd have to see what the budgets are", "right okay there's so many unknowns", "you know based on what will happen at the legislature", "good point then", "here's a link", "we've had a lot of questions", "refer to that", "you know it is an important topic to several school districts in our community", "i'm not sure you have a real direction or certainly we can take a position as it were", "you know i think", "if it's possible i think that might be useful information to the executive committee", "even a straw poll to say that if the majority of the school districts or elementary districts want to pursue a modified unified union school district that the board would not be lobbying against that or that they could live with that", "can i ask just i guess it's a point of order", "if we take a poll or a vote is it binding well i would say we no", "the people aren't going to lobby against it", "no but it would be good to get in the minutes right okay i'd hope what to say what the position of the board is", "not that it's binding but it gives like a highlight it gives some historical information for the public and it gives judy some feedback that she can bring to the executive committee", "i have a clarification question", "if we're voting are we voting to endorse the reactivation of the study committees or are we voting to endorse creation of the i think my recommendation would be voting to support a merger and a merger study if the majority of the elementary boards vote to do so", "okay", "somebody would like make a motion to that effect somebody along here could well why couldn't you yeah well that's yeah what he said what he said", "is that what let me see a motion to support huhuh huhuh to support not even", "i mean there's some semantics here but support the formation of a merger committee a merger study if a majority of the elementary school boards want to move forward in such a manner", "she said so be it so i'll second", "is that what you said to me yeah i think he did a good job of repeating it", "i thought it was fine a good lane as we are", "that's okay okay", "okay discussion diane i just wanna say that this is just a really really important discussion and that if we do nothing else and if we have to schedule another hour so that everyone can really delve into this and express their opinions express their concerns", "i think that that would be so important and the only thing i fear sort of if we go right to a study is that we lose these bigger voices because we consolidate down to a smaller group", "but i think that this discussion has been very very helpful", "and i think we're getting to a point where we're kind of tired of the financial part and we're really looking at how this is gonna benefit our community and our kids", "so i'm not sure", "i don't know about the study but", "even if they do well they have to do", "they would have to do a they have to do a study", "a articles of agreement", "they'd have to look at what the formation would look like", "they have to follow the statutory steps", "it wouldn't have to be a full blown governance study because we've already done that", "if we hadn't done that we couldn't even bring it to the statutory steps but forming a committee and talking about what this would mean for the districts that merge and what the articles of agreement might look like and what the structure of the district would look like stipulating that", "dave i really agree with diane's answers and i would like to expand on that", "i think we need another discussion about this", "and the reason i think we need another discussion is a so that we can get the public involved", "i mean tell people this is going to be the main article for discussion for this meeting and we really want you to come and listen and participate", "so that we can get some public feedback on this because it's gonna be a contentious issue", "you know if we go back out and do another study people are gonna say why are we doing this and you know just also that people can come in better informed about what all this means because it is complicated mmhmm", "you know i mean what the various options are", "les it seems like we're jumping a little too quickly here", "wouldn't it be that the elementary schools are the ones they have to decide if they wanna go ahead", "it's their school districts that are voting on it and paying for it", "are you asking us to tell the elementary school districts well that yeah we think it's a good idea you go ahead well no as opposed to letting the public know each school board talk to their members", "you are and say what do you think you're a standing board", "so it's pretty important that if you say we cannot live with a modified unified union school district that judy brings that back to the other elementary boards because potentially what could happen is that this board could take on some prek to four school districts", "okay so you know i think it's important for you folks", "not say necessarily endorse it but you wouldn't stand in the way", "you could support it and support bringing it to the electorate if a majority of the elementary districts want to pursue this", "do we actually have the opportunity to say we would not participate being the local high school and middle schools as it were", "can we say if the communities voted for this we can't opt out can we you can opt out", "but i think i'm pretty sure almost positive that the elementary districts would wanna know well what does the mmu board think this could have a big impact on them", "and then they could pursue a modified elementary district possibly okay they could yeah", "but we have the right we should be attending those elementary school board meetings cause we are town taxpayers and we taxpayers", "can bring that perspective and they should be coming here and then we can have that little talk that we've been missing but in terms of moving forward i would wanna know that that was up for the discussion and be present you know in my town", "while they are having those discussions", "i mean i'm really sure that they're gonna wanna know does the mmu board think this is a bad idea we should not be doing this and that they don't wanna change the structure", "i think that that would be important information for our local school boards cliff i see this as a sort of a sense of the meeting vote here", "it doesn't bind anybody right no", "to anything exactly", "it just says smile i think that's better", "go ahead and do it and if you like the idea you know or you don't like the idea", "and it also doesn't conflict or preempt getting the public involved getting the other boards here", "i was even thinking in my mind a massive meeting of all eight boards", "but we'd need to schedule for that i think", "sorry did that on monday", "that's okay only certain delegates", "so i have no trouble with the motion", "it's just a smile directed at the elementary boards", "yeah cindy yeah i agree with you", "if this is just the way we feel at this point in time with this information after this discussion tonight", "yeah yes does anybody remember the content of the resolute update of the resolution we passed that instructed our executive committee members on the positions they could take on this issue because we did pass a resolution mmhmm yup", "and it did bind them to specifically limit them i believe but i'm working from a faulty memory", "that there were limits on what they could bring up or support mmhmm", "and i do think if my memory's even in the ballpark we need to pass something", "otherwise they continue to be bound by that resolution", "right cause that was that resolution that we dissolve the red mm the committee the committee itself", "cause there was a motion", "we had to take that to the executive committee right from this board right sure and say that", "yeah but if it's dissolved and this is it's new start then we can start it no not this", "it was the process of being directed", "but that's what you're talking about right yeah i just think that i don't have it in front of me", "i just wanna be sure that we don't create that disconnect", "well and i think that'll come from the executive committee but i know", "i mean you can table this for another time but i think that the elementary boards would wanna know could the mmu board a majority at least support this or support the electorate voting on a modified unified union school district", "i'm not saying you support the concept", "i'm saying that you could support the electorate if a majority of the school boards want to move forward with this merger option", "that's all i'm saying", "allison yeah allison", "i agree with diane", "i think that's premature", "and i think that as much as i appreciate what your sentiment is cliff", "i think that a vote about this might be misunderstood by the public mmhmm", "i would not like to see us get in the situation of the classic mommy can i go to the store ask your father", "daddy mommy said i could go to the store is it okay you know i think we should stay out of it and let them decide yeah", "and then we'll continue to talk about what children need and what is appropriate for education", "my main concern i know i come off as being very emotional about this which i guess is true", "i think that i agree with michael and all these concerns that you folks all have", "very very passionately i agree with you", "i think we have the wrong legislative structure in which to work not gonna change in time", "that's my concern", "or that you don't have a position", "you do not have a position at this time", "i think that should be stated in the minutes", "we do have a motion so you don't on the floor we do have a motion right a seconded emotion uhhuh uhhuh", "yup we have seconded motion yeah", "we have a seconded motion we can move to table it", "there we go", "you got it excuse me i'd like to move to table it", "second", "oh dear is that it to be voted on no it's nondebatable though right it's voted on it's nondebatable", "but it's not debatable right", "and that takes precedence yeah", "so those in favor of tabling the motion as presented indicate by saying aye", "aye", "and those opposed no", "we'll do a show of hands those in favor indicate by raising your hand please", "of tabling it of tabling", "one two three four five", "one two three four five okay", "and those in favor of pursuing the motion indicate by raising your hands please", "one two three four five six", "we're back to the motion as it was originally presented", "is there more discussion to that we just have the motion remaining i'm sorry", "yes that would be great", "yeah chris it's going in the minutes you gotta have it", "to support the formation of a merger committee and study if the majority of elementary boards vote to do so", "okay mmhmm", "so that's the way the motion is", "yes", "okay more discussion not hearing any those in favor indicate by saying aye", "aye", "those opposed nay", "okay i think the ayes have it clearly", "yes go ahead", "but you didn't ask for the abstains", "and abstentions i mean abstentions", "and one abstention okay", "we will go the ayes still have it", "with that message to the executive committee", "that's fairly clear", "thank you for the discussion", "okay", "i'm gonna make a suggestion that we table the vision twenty calendar okay for our next june meeting", "we're in a informational gathering engagement part of this", "so you can take a look at what i provided you", "and then we can that will be an agenda item for our next june meeting", "are people okay with that mmhmm yeah", "cause it'll be a meaty topic", "i don't think we can dive into that today", "i can attest to that", "okay yes i can", "are there committee reports ap language classes other than those that were i gave you our recent ones", "it's not italian the written reports we're okay right i received the only thing that policy did was that we rescinded", "not rescinded we sunsetted a lot of smaller policies that are really subsumed into the contracts", "are there additions or corrections to the minutes of the previous meeting i have none", "hearing none we will approve them as written", "and the words they are ooh i gotta pass those around", "sorry oh god", "two hundred and fourteen million one hundred and fifty one thousand seven hundred and ninety one", "okay", "any questions or objections to the words as presented we will approve those", "are there announcements or other business ken john i just have a question for you", "in light of all the news that burlington is in the news forum last week", "act one went into effect in two thousand and eleven and it very clearly says that the school board of a school district shall ensure that all adults have been trained", "that's bus drivers cafeteria workers everybody in the district", "have we done that yes yes", "so there may be some employees that were hired during the school year that haven't had that training but folks that when we started the school year have been trained and we'll be doing it again", "thanks", "other announcements we don't need an executive session we do we do it should be pretty brief okay", "it's a student issue okay", "i move that we go into executive session for the purpose of dealing with a student issue", "second", "as soon as the room is cleared we will enter into an executive session", "pardon me could we have a vote on it all right because the public meeting requires us to vote on that", "we can have a vote those in favor of going into executive session for the purpose of discussing a student issue student issue indicate by saying aye", "aye", "thank you you need a ride oh i will hailey and conner it's okay thank you very much"], "name": ["MMU_Board_Mtg._5-9-13/MMU_Board_Mtg_DOT__5-9-13/MMU_Board_Mtg_DOT__5-9-13_DOT_flac_00000.flac", 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-{"audio_document_id": "MeasureD-cmcm_h264.flac", "identifier": "MeasureDForFairfax", "text_document_id": "MeasureD-cmcm_h264.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [1370, 7840, 5370, 9576, 1647, 4037, 14260, 3710, 4150, 8960, 6710, 5893, 14510, 6890, 4860, 13403, 8393, 8090, 7450, 9190, 6500, 10070, 2820, 9960, 7730, 4960, 14833, 24930, 12860, 5610, 5200, 6900, 7350, 5860, 11250, 9530, 25910, 6910, 6510, 8350, 13530, 8760, 8623, 3170, 3910, 7680, 5840, 10170, 12460, 2520, 6000, 6903, 10940, 1900, 12280, 13190, 18210, 833, 7260, 833, 14790, 12500, 5280, 5640, 12650, 8413, 8600, 1340, 11720, 5000, 6260, 2500, 3870, 7230, 11120, 3796, 5274, 4370, 8900, 6960, 3793, 2357, 3330, 3800, 20710, 18221, 4783, 1350, 4890, 6063, 4013, 4350, 4790, 3010, 5483, 3800, 11090, 2570, 1930, 5303, 6070, 6080, 10930, 1010, 3843, 28023, 5890, 15740, 6670, 4270, 4390, 8160, 15860, 12510, 5030, 2770, 11730, 6830, 10580, 12160, 841], "label": ["hi welcome everybody", "this is community media center of marin tv cmcm tv and my name is craig slater", "i'm here today with larry bragman current mayor of fairfax and jory prum", "and we are going to be talking about measure d a half cent sales tax for fairfax which is on the ballot november eight", "here's jory first", "my name is jory prum i am with the commitee to oppose measure d", "and while the proponents of the measure d sales tax are making a lot of claims as to why it's necessary and what they've done to avoid it we've found that when looking at these claims critically that they actually don't hold up", "they claim that sales tax and property tax revenues have decreased", "they claim that the state grabbed money from local governments", "they claimed that the flood was very costly which it was but you know whether it contributed to the town's financial situation is a whole different story", "they claim that they've cut all departmental spending by four and we find that none of these actually hold up", "when studying the town's audits we actually find that they tell a very different story so", "well fairfax like most towns in california is facing a financial crisis because of the financial the housing bubble popping in california and throughout the country", "and as a result of that fact property taxes have actually gone down in fairfax", "in normal times property taxes go up about two twelve percent", "for the last three years unfortunately for fairfax our assessed valuation has gone down while the operating costs of operating the town of fairfax have gone up", "we've concluded after many discussions that the fairest way to handle this is a modest sales tax proposal of half a cent", "so in response to the town's assertions that property taxes and sales taxes are down we don't disagree that they have fallen over the last three years", "however if you take a larger view you'll actually see that there was a bubble and the bubble has corrected itself", "if you look at overall revenues of the town of fairfax from two thousand and five to two thousand and ten you'll find that revenues have actually increased over thirteen", "if you adjust that for inflation it actually comes out that the town is up by forty two in overall revenues", "the state money grabs is another one of their arguments except that while they happened the state was required to give all the funds back according to the two thousand and ten audit", "the flood did happen of course that was very costly", "but it has been paid for by fema oes and insurance and the town is still negotiating to get some of those funds back so that's it's not a final say", "but additionally those funds come from a different account also known as the storm capital fund", "and so those don't actually effect the general funds spending", "while the town claims to have spent four less in all departments it actually when you look at the overall information presented by the town's official audits you find out that actually spending is up twenty four twelve percent in all departments", "most recently i was told by town officials that that was as a result of flood spending and despite the argument about fema oes and insurance if we take that argument at face value it doesn't explain why general government spending us up seventy five but public works the folks who actually do the repairs around town are only up one hundred and sixty eight overall", "the town also claims that they've left unfilled positions vacant kind of insinuating that inferring that they're not hiring but then again this year they created a whole new position", "so we don't feel that they're actually doing quite everything they can or that the whole story is being told", "town of fairfax has had a frozen police position for the last four years", "we froze in the management position of planning director for the last year that's being handled by the manager", "and he's being backed up by somebody we brought in as a part timer to handle special chores", "all employee groups in fairfax have agreed to a continuing wage freeze", "wages have been frozen in fairfax for the last two years and under the new collective bargaining agreements we entered into this year they'll continue to be frozen for two more years", "in addition to that all employee groups have agreed to a five pay reduction because they're gonna be picking up five of their pensions", "so my question to jory is are all these groups wrong are all these bargaining units wrong that have looked at the budget and made these concessions for fairfax are the sacrifices being made by these employees simply in vain or for no reason the fact of the matter is is that property taxes throughout marin county have been declining for two years", "last year the assessor reduced property assessments on twenty one of the properties here in marin", "this year he reduced assessments for twenty seven of the properties here in marin county", "this has a devastating effect on local government because we depend on property assessments for property taxes", "property taxes pay for most of our general fund and the fact of the matter is is that since two thousand and nine our property taxes have declined by over two hundred thousand", "that's just a fact you can look it up at the county assessors office if you don't believe the numbers that we're posting in fairfax", "but i might add all the numbers that we post in fairfax have been audited and approved by independent outside auditors", "the town of fairfax they do have an audit", "it's a general audit it does not cover the actual budget it does not cover payroll", "it only covers the audits of expenditures and revenues and we agree that that generally is true and correct", "and we are using the numbers that come from those audits those official documents from the town of fairfax", "what we find when we analyze those audits is that from two thousand and five to two thousand and ten the town of fairfax brought in twenty seven million more revenue than they expected", "that on average the town of fairfax earns an additional four hundred and fifty nine thousand per year than they expect in fact if you chart it out you will notice that every single year the town has brought in more revenue than they expected", "they also spend more money than they expected", "from two thousand and five to two thousand and ten the town spent nine hundred and nine thousand more than they expected to spend", "and even with that twenty seven million budget surplus the town managed to spend the twenty three million deficit", "we don't disagree that over the last two years that the tax revenues are decreasing overall but over the last five years they are increased completely", "forty two overall", "so we don't say that the firefighters and town employees are wrong what we're saying is that the information that's being presented to them is not transparent it's not necessarily accurate", "and when you look at the information in a larger scope rather than saying just the last couple of years you find that the information being provided is very very easy to question and easy to find holes with", "we hope that the fairfax voters will do some research for themselves they'll look at the information we've provided which all cited and sourced and no one has so far been able to tell us that with any actual proof that the numbers we are citing are actually incorrect", "thank you", "jory i'd like to cite a number that you've put in your website that's absolutely incorrect", "go for it", "okay in the no on d website it claims that fairfax obtained in property tax for the year two thousand and nine approximately forty six million", "now if you look at the actual audit for two thousand and nine you'll see that fairfax actually received about three thousand four hundred and fifty three million in property tax", "so in other words the no on d website is off about a million dollars", "now let's go back to your figure about twenty seven million being unaccounted for", "the town has stated repeatedly that when we first received fema funds back in two thousand and six those funds were reported as part of the general fund", "that was actually noted in the town manager's budget statement for the year two thousand and six at page three of her budget statement", "now those funds plus the million dollars that you've misstated on your website might account for that twenty seven million", "i don't really know", "but it's a disservice to the truth to tell people that fairfax is not facing reduced general funds from a reduction in its property tax base", "it's just a denial of the crisis that we're in", "and we're not gonna be able to deal with it unless we first recognize the facts", "the town administration has done that", "we've frozen salaries we've frozen budgets", "town employees have done that by taking a salary freeze and a reduction on pensions", "i think together if the voters agree we can and will get through this crisis but not unless we all understand what's happening around us", "okay well i thought i was summarizing before so i'll just continue on", "larry i'm looking at the two thousand and nine fiscal year budget and it's or audit sorry", "and it says general revenues property taxes forty six million", "i don't know where you're getting your numbers from but if i can look it up in the audit i would imagine that anybody can and find it on the town's website", "if you go to the fairfaxsaysnocom website you'll find that all the figures are available directly on the website", "we have charted it out so people can see it we're not skewing the numbers", "we have not distorted any of the numbers", "we cite exactly where those numbers come from using footnotes", "and you can look all those numbers up for yourself and we hope that you will", "because we love this town we appreciate that people are taking the time a chance to actually find out more about this issue appreciate that the media center is covering this issue in such depth and we hope that you will do some research and learn more about it yourself before you go to the polls", "i'm gonna show you i don't know if you can focus on this but this is the no on d website that shows this forty six million figure okay now i'm gonna hold up the actual audit which shows property tax revenue of three hundred and forty three million", "so here's the truth in numbers here's the truth in numbers", "same document", "we're in a financial crisis", "and measure d is a modest proposal to get us through it as a town", "we can get through the crisis if we work together", "if we work together to pass measure d", "fairfax will not only survive it will thrive", "and that's my vision for fairfax", "it's a thriving resilient town and it goes to its own beat", "and i know measure d is part of that", "i'm seeing now property tax revenue that difference is precisely caused by the pension tax override which is property tax based", "he's counting one we're counting the other", "pick and choose numbers fine go ahead", "the point of it is the town's budget has been underestimated by over twenty seven million", "the town's expenses have been more than nine hundred thousand over budget", "the flood has nothing to do with this it's accounted for in a totally separate fund", "we can show it and we can show if you go to the website you can see the town's actual words explaining the town flood fund", "craig slater again", "i'm gonna read something from the no camp", "that the arguments of the town sound believable on the surface but when looked at with a critical eye it's obvious the justifications are not only false they're based on a complete lack of fiscal responsibility or accurate financial reporting from town staff and our elected representatives so that's the claim made by the no group and obviously the yes on d camp has a very different view of the management of the town", "so it's up for us as citizens to look at what is really going on here", "there's clearly a disagreement in the perception of the numbers and i think it really gets down to each of us doing our job as voters and finding out about the issues talk to people who are opponents talk to people who are proponents", "and find out how this might effect you and then how to vote", "hi my name's matt hartwellherrera i'm the campaign manager for yes for measure d", "and the reason we're supporting this is because we have a simple challenge within fairfax", "property taxes are down over the last couple years and expenses have continued to rise driven by spiraling healthcare costs and pension costs", "the town has taken lots of steps in order to make those other costs that we can contain go lower but we have not been able to bridge the gap and we simply must live within our means and the town chose a half cent sales tax because it was the fairest way to balance that budget", "it allows visitors from outside fairfax to contribute it doesn't apply to groceries it's a small half cent that replaces a one cent tax that was retired by california so our taxes will still be lower", "this is why measure d is a good compromise and will be good for fairfax", "it's just to call out the folks who have endorsed measure d", "we have the unanimous town counsel of fairfax the town finance director the town treasurer supervisor howe brown from the marin board of supervisors", "we have the fairfax police we have the fairfax firefighters we have the fairfax chamber of commerce", "the majority of businesses within fairfax as well as many individual folks within the community mark squire gary graham and others", "so there is a tremendous amount of support within the community and the folks that the citizens count on to represent them who have been elected and are hired in order to analyze", "thank you"], "name": ["MeasureDForFairfax/MeasureDForFairfax/MeasureD-cmcm_h264_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "MeasureDForFairfax/MeasureDForFairfax/MeasureD-cmcm_h264_DOT_flac_00001.flac", 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15100, 9353, 890, 3350, 1633, 1150, 3206, 970, 4200, 5100, 5780, 4780, 12690, 6400, 14900, 6900, 5670, 22120, 3280, 3160, 1970, 4330, 1270, 8630, 6470, 7830, 4917, 7530, 4780, 15620, 3880, 11793, 14300, 13550, 7760, 13760, 1610, 1563, 2550, 10730, 8900, 860, 1200, 1770, 9840, 1223, 3590, 6400, 4490, 15360, 3053, 8093, 5571, 1386, 857, 2750], "label": ["what's fascinating about vermont is that it's got a very democratic legislature overall but there's also a very deep libertarian democratic bent which says we cannot force things on people because that's not what we do and every time they appoint someone and say look what we'd really like to do is to say you cannot sell a house unless you have an energy audit and i talked to the people in those groups who are representing the bank and the real estate side of things", "and they say you can't do that", "it'll ruin the sale and my response was when i sell a house and i've sold two houses i've lived in houses and sold them i just made a number up what i was asking for it's not like there was a calculation i went through", "i've lived in it for seven years i'm expecting this return and if i don't get this i'm an unhappy puppy", "i just make up a number", "right", "so add five hundred to that number and you've got a professional bpi for four hundred whatever it is a professional building performance institute professional giving you the lowdown on your house before you sell it", "and that gives the buyer something to bargain with and it gives the seller something to bargain with", "the seller can say look i know that this is wrong with this house and i'll fix these things before i sell it to you because i know i can do it well and cheaply or whatever or i'll take my price down by what the difference is but i'm making the price up anyway", "so if you're making the price up and you say i bought this house for two hundred thousand and i wanna sell it for two hundred and sixty thousand and then you get the audit and you know that it needs thirty thousand worth of work to really be energy efficient in a way that someone would be happy with it then you can just say okay i'm asking two hundred and ninety right it's that we're making these numbers up it's complete fiction", "and the banker was like people still not go for it he happens to be a neighbor of mine very nice guy david adams works at the vermont federal housing agency", "and the real estate people don't want it for reasons that i can't possibly fathom because it only gives them something to sell about the house", "so what we're gonna talk about from now on is instead of why the real estate people don't want it what all the benefits are", "so if we talk about how we need to know what our housing stock is like and we need to make sure our homes are safe and durable", "and durable and we're gonna and you know and then we make it a baseline for people to say when they're buying a house well i wanna know what's the building performance like people should know what building performance is and people don't know what building performance is", "yeah and something that the vermont green house alliance which is a trade group that's also got members from all different branches is working on is trying to push from the appraisal side to say look if you have a house that's really energy efficient there's a provision in the appraisal rules that say if it's really super efficient then it's not like any house on the market and you can call it a special case if you can label your house a special case then they have to bring in an expert in that case", "for instance you have a horse farm that you're selling", "you can't just get joe nice guy over here appraiser who's never appraised a horse farm before", "you have a right as a person who's selling that to go to the bank and say i'm selling a horse farm", "i need an appraiser who understands the valuation of a horse farm and they get someone who's had that experience", "well if you have a house that uses one hundred and ten of the energy that normal house uses you have a special case and you can argue that to the bank and say look that was real estate agent", "i need a special appraiser for this because my house is unlike any other house and it will come around", "there are new rules coming up in the appraisals and i might touch on that later if we get back to it but why don't i turn it over to all right i think we might as well get started", "we may get some more people", "i don't know if we have to introduce chris because he's got his credentials up there which is nice cause if they can memorize anything", "but the jericho energy task force meets once a month generally on the second thursday of the month", "but just to confuse people this month we're doing the second tuesday", "we're a task force which means that people can come or not come whatever they want", "we work on a whole slew of things but one of the things we'd like to do is bring some public presentations to educate people", "we've also done buttonedup workshops", "we've got the home energy makeover trailer to the underhill harvest market", "and today we bring you chris west", "if anyone has any questions about the task force feel free to contact me afterwards if i'm not in a run eating stupor", "and i'll leave my stupor til afterwards", "so my name is chris west", "i am a passive house consultant", "i have a bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering that i got living in the netherlands and i worked as a mechanical engineer at the bachelor's level in the netherlands teaching and also doing energy audits on schools", "and i'm going to give you tonight a basis a basic understanding of what passive house is because a lot of people have heard the name it's really if you're interested at all energy efficiency it is the most energy efficient building standard in the world and it's all based on building science", "in the last fifteen years we've had huge advances in building science and building energy science", "and we can using the application of modern building science we can build houses that use almost no energy to heat and cool", "i like this slide like starting off with it because people usually don't have a good understanding of what the energy mix is in america", "this is from architecture two thousand and thirty which is a group that's pushing for energy efficiency in buildings", "and what we see in this graph is us energy consumption by sector", "and what's important about this is this orange slice right here", "the two slices together give you the amount of energy that we've put into our buildings together and it's about forty nine of the energy that we use goes into our buildings", "the smaller slice this fifty five is the energy we put into actually building our buildings", "and the four hundred and thirty five is the energy we used to sustain them after they're built", "so when you think about where we're putting our efficiency things like leed in the national green building standard are very into sourcing locally and doing all of that", "but if you look at the proportion that that actually saves if you're going to look for savings in energy that is only forty five of all the energy we used while the building operations heating cooling and other things like that is four hundred and thirty five", "so if we can cut down on the energy that our buildings use we have a much bigger influence on overall energy use", "the vermont state comprehensive energy plan which the vermont state legislature passed a number of years ago says that by two thousand and thirty one hundred of the new homes that are built somewhere between one thousand and three thousand depending on the year should be net zero houses", "thirty of all new homes built by two thousand and twenty need to be net zero to fulfill the requirements of the comprehensive energy plan", "and a lot of people have and i run into this every day in my normal business have ideas about what net zero is okay i'm gonna tell you what net zero is", "net zero means that your house uses a certain amount of energy and you have a certain amount of renewable energies that covers the amount of energy your house uses", "that means that you can have a huge wasteful horrible house and have a field of solar panels and you have a net zero house", "that's the truth because it's all about balancing it out", "however the other path is to make a super energy efficient house put a lot of money into building a house that's really energy efficient and have a couple of panels to get to your net zero", "and this is the path that we're working on ph is just my abbreviation for passive house", "this is something i learned when i was in the netherlands it's called the energy triangle and it's based on the recycling triangle which is reuse reduce reuse recycle", "you reduce first right stop using stuff and then reuse what you can before you recycle", "and the last of it you put it back into the system and they churn it around and then make it into something we can use again", "but the third part always uses more energy than just not using in the first place or using it without recycling it", "so the energy triangle says the first thing we do is we reduce the load that we have", "and the second thing we do is we use renewables to take care of as much of whatever the first one couldn't get rid of", "and then if we can't completely fulfill the requirement that that load is with renewables then we use fossil fuels as sparingly as possible", "passive house now a lot of people confuse passive house with passive solar and a lot of people who have been talking about the introduction of passive house which came to the united states in about two thousand and five started in one thousand nine hundred and ninety five in germany say oh passive house i've heard of that", "that's where you have a lot of windows in the south no actually that's passive solar and passive solar is something that was developed and designed in the 1960s and 70s and it was a great thing for what it was at the time but it's not a passive house", "passive house does use passive solar heat gain", "and that's really important but it's not the main part of it", "now passive house has become more and more a part of the vernacular of building industry in america and only the eight years that it's been here it is now the target for the department of energy", "the department of energy says okay we're trying to be like passive house and the journal of light construction when they have someone talking about air sealing in the journal of light construction when they're talking about insulation they said well we're not gonna go as far as passive house but that word is still there passive house is still the gold standard", "the green building advisor which is something it's an industry website that with lots of blogs about how to build stuff and i recommend it highly", "if you're interested in doing something to your house go to the green building advisor look it up see what the experts are talking about", "they poopooed passive house in the beginning and now they're always referencing it", "even if they're saying it stinks because of this they're still talking about it", "bad publicity is still publicity", "better building by design i started going to better building by design", "do you all know about that this is a yearly conference that efficiency vermont puts on for building industry members builders architects et cetera at the sheraton in burlington in february", "and i went the first year we just set up the passive house alliance the first year before we set up the passive house alliance", "so i went there and i was like well passive house and people were like yeah i've heard of passive house a little bit of this two years ago it was like okay we've got a table we got the passive house alliance which is a group of passive house consultants and other people interested in passive house and every now and then in one of the sessions you'd hear someone say passive house", "this last year every session that was talking about building energy talked about passive house", "it is what we're trying to get to", "so even people don't like it are talking about passive house oh that passive house there's even a group who decided to call their thing an active house which is beautiful right on because you're pushing against passive house wonderful", "so when we're talking about building energy standards in america and in vermont we really have to just know what the playing field is before we can understand where passive house fits into it", "so as a part of the americans for recovery act the arra money that vermont got and we got something like ninety million we had to as a state implement a building code that is based on energy", "vermont does not have a building code", "you can write on a napkin what you want your house to look like", "you can go to the jericho town hall you can register that as your house and you can build it yourself", "you need a plumber who's registered licensed plumbing and your licensed electrician", "you don't need an architect", "you don't need a builder", "you just need a home depot card with enough credit to buy the stuff and go and get it and build it yourself", "allowed until arra until we took that money and we said to them okay we'll implement a building standard and we now have what's called the rbes and that's the residential building energy standard", "it's tied to something called the international energy commission code which is the minimum that you can build to", "and that's an r i'm gonna be using rvalues", "you all know what an rvalue is rvalue is the resistance to heat passing through a wall", "a wall a twobyfour wall filled with fiberglass in between is about an r11", "so that's the standard", "a lot of people have just a standard twobyfour wall with some fiberglass in the middle and that's an r11", "so the rbes says an r20 wall r40 in the roof two inches of foam under the slab in that and four air changes per hour", "i'll explain that in a minute what that means", "so that's what they have to build to even though until recently it was not required that the certificate saying that you built that was in anyway filed anywhere but we've been working on that", "that was passed in the last legislative session", "the next step down is energy star", "so if you build an rbes house 2000squarefoot house you're probably spending three thousand five hundred a year to heat that house pretty standard", "and if you built it with how we were building before the rbes you're probably spending four thousand four thousand five hundred a year to heat that house", "energy star is a department of energy program", "it makes a house that's thirty more efficient than code", "and that means slightly better walls slightly better roof", "actually the air changes five air changes per hour instead of four which is kind of odd but it is thirty more efficient", "you also have to buy all energy star appliances inside all cfls compact fluorescent light lamps", "then we have the building america which is a program that the department of energy uses to showcase new building energy standards that will then be rolled into the next version of energy star", "so it's kinda like okay we're gonna do whatever we think is the next thing and in two years we'll just make energy star forty and that'll have some of the stuff we did in building america and then we have passive house", "so building ventilators fifteen more efficient than that but passive house is ninety more efficient than the rbes and than your vermont energy code and costs approximately fifteen more to make", "i'm gonna be showing a number of graphs during this presentation", "all of these graphs are based on actual data from efficiency vermont", "that's the beauty of efficiency vermont", "efficiency vermont is an amazing resource", "they have a lot of data they've collected from houses and how they work", "we have actual realtime data on a hundred houses in vermont something like that with monitoring systems", "so we can say with certainty that if we're gonna look at a vermont baseline which is that house that they were building before they adopted the federally required rbes that it was using this much heating", "see heating is the red water heating is the green ventilation is orange cooling is the blue which in vermont is almost nonexistent and you have lights and appliances on the top", "we have a wonderful environment for cooling in vermont because you have these 85degree days you have the 65degree nights and you just open up your windows and it cools your house off and you close them up in the daytime that's called night flushing and it really works here", "there are places in the country that that doesn't work and we're just very thankful for that", "but you can see here i've got rbes vermont energy code", "i've got vermont energy code plus which is adding a little more rvalue and then you have energy star there and then you have passive house", "and what you notice with all of these is what's being reduced in general is that red bit", "we're cutting down on the heating load", "there is in the passive house is green but it gets very small at the end because passive house also likes to put passive solar hot water up and that cuts down or a heat pump water heater which uses about fifteen of the energy of a regular water heater", "and that's how we can get that water heating demand down", "people are still using the same amount of water but it's the amount of energy you have to put in to get that water", "so how does passive house get from this rbes right this what i considered to be a horrible wasteful thing but is the minimum energy standard you have to use in the state well let's talk about the history of houses first just a second", "in the 19th century and before the 19th century we built houses to keep the weather out", "that was pretty much it", "you wanted the rain outside you didn't want the rain inside so they built houses that kept the weather out for the most part right cause you had these big gaps that sometimes rain got in sometimes snow got in but in general the weather was outside and you built a big fireplace in the middle of the house and you stoke that with lots and lots of wood", "and even with that you still had your outside clothes on inside to stay warm enough and be comfortable", "then came along the 20th century", "and what did the 20th century bring us well it brought us a lot of machines and it brought us cheap oil which is basically what we've been running on as a country for a hundred plus years", "so we have all these new machines these boilers these hydronic systems forced hot air that are not efficient because they don't have to be cause fuel oil was fifteen cents a gallon twenty cents a gallon and we can waste it and who cares", "there was no concept of putting out too much co2 or co or any of the other pollutants", "and i don't focus on global warming in this presentation because although i personally think it's very important to cut down on our emissions of these gases it's not that important to the story", "so in the 20th century we didn't fix the shell", "we didn't add insulation to any great effect until the 1970s and 80s which is not that long ago speaking just historically", "and we just have these honking machines that they're oversized because the plumber doesn't wanna get called back that hvac person doesn't wanna get called back and say oh my house is cold so they make it one hundred and fifty more powerful than it has to be", "so you're just burning a lot more but who cares it's really cheap", "now we're in the 21st century", "in the 21st century they've really gotten into the science of how buildings work", "and i'm about to give you the story of what that is cause this is this one person with really thick walls capturing solar heat gains and using a couple of small but very efficient mechanical systems", "a lot of these standards that you hear about leed in the national green building standard they're really not focused on energy leed is about fifteen interested in energy but more importantly they're pages and pages and pages and pages of these checklists", "very complex really hard to get through", "passive house is simple", "there are four things you have to hit on passive house", "you have a maximum heating load", "you have a maximum cooling load like i said in vermont is not such a big deal", "you have a maximum total energy demand", "and that source means that the energy they have to put in at the fuel plant the coal plant that sends you that fuel that electricity or in saudi arabia what energy it takes to pump that out ship it here and put it in so the source energy that's used and airtightness", "in the passive house we start by making the envelope really really good as far as a thermal transmittance", "okay there are three ways that a house loses energy", "it loses it through conductance", "conductance is the heat that goes through a material and out into the cold heat", "now i'm gonna ask the question", "does heat rise no", "no", "hot air", "hot air rises", "heat goes from hot to cold", "if you're in a warm room and it's colder below you the heat is going down", "only hot air rises right so when we're dealing about with trying to cut down on the conductive losses we make very thick walls", "there are two other losses", "one is a ventilation loss which is the air that you purposely bring into your house to bring fresh air into your house", "there's a loss there because you're bringing in cold air", "and then you have the real demon the infiltration loss and infiltration is the uncontrolled ventilation of your house through gaps in your house somewhere around the windows at the soffits at gaps where this sill plate sits on top of your foundation they're all over the place", "and the older the house the leakier the house", "so the first thing we're attacking is that conductive loss", "and in vermont because we're in one of the coldest climates in america we're in climate zone six cold and humid climate we need an r50 to r60 wall r80 to r100 ceiling and r50 to r60 under the slab", "now why do i have the other numbers here because it really depends on your sighting of the house and how much solar heat gain you get as to what you need", "the size of the house and those things all have an effect", "the passive house system is not proscriptive", "i cannot say to you build a house with these walls and you'll have a passive house because there are too many factors involved", "when you get to a super energy efficient house a house that uses almost nothing to heat every loss every gain has to be taken into account", "high performance windows windows with a uvalue of sixteen or less with a high solar heat gain coefficient", "if you were to go to home depot right now and buy windows andersen super lowe windows they have a uvalue of twenty nine which is almost double what you need as a requirement for the passive house and they have a solar heat gain coefficient", "that means the amount of heat that gets through the window into your house is thirty six or thirty nine", "those windows are not designed for vermont", "those windows are designed for georgia where you wanna keep the heat the warmth of that heat from the sun out of your house", "we look for in the passive house we look for five or higher on the solar heat gain coefficient", "and there are companies that can give you six and sixty one", "i've even seen as high as sixty four", "eliminate thermal bridging", "i work with a contractor who does energy audits and we walk around the thermal imaging camera", "and what you see here is a picture of a thermal image of a house in a cold day", "what we're seeing here is the nice warmth inside", "the red is warm so the inside is nice and warm", "they're losing a lot through the windows cause windows in general are not very good thermally but these ribs here those are actually the wood studs", "the wood studs are conducting heat from inside the house outside the house just like the fins on the lawnmower are cooling the lawnmower off by letting that surface area radiate", "a lot of houses have thermal bridging and in passive house we need to eliminate that thermal bridging in order to get to a super energy efficient house", "airtightness i'm gonna be throwing out this term air changes per hour and what does that mean i said that the rbes has a four air changes per hour at fifty pascals that's ach50", "fifty pascals is the amount of pressure that a twenty two twelve mile per hour wind blows against your house", "so when it's zero degrees outside and it's sixty eight or seventy degrees inside your house and it's blowing twenty two twelve miles per hour against your house if you have a house that's ach4 that means every fifteen minutes all of the air that your furnace had worked really hard to heat up has been blown out of your house and is now outside and you've got a whole bunch of new fresh freezing cold air in your house that your furnace has to heat", "and then fifteen minutes later it's happened all over again", "so one of the things that we try to do if you have that situation four air changes per hour five ten i've seen more then you are heating the outside and you need a really big furnace to keep heating that cold air that's coming into your house", "passive house has a minimum requirement for new buildings", "this is a mall", "right now i'm talking about new buildings of six air changes per hour at fifty pascals", "that's less than one an hour", "that means that every hour and a half or hour and twenty minutes that fresh air has been blown in that cold fresh air has been blown through the gaps in your house", "so you need a much smaller heat source to heat that back up", "when you get a super energy efficient house you are heating your house", "internal heat gains your refrigerator your washing machine your television all of your electronics your light bulbs everything your dog everything that you have in that house that's giving off heat is a heat source", "every one of us gives off a hundred watts of heat at rest", "if you're jumping around you can give off more but you're putting off as much as a hundred watt light bulb", "now we're all old enough to remember what a hundred watt light bulb is", "so there are certainly children in school who don't but every one of us is like a hundred watt light bulb", "and we used to use those in the incubation for the chicks to warm them up right so when you get a super insulated house every one of these people is giving off a hundred watts", "i have houses that i've helped design that if you invite fifteen friends over you're heating your house", "we orient our houses and we get those high solar heat gain windows so that when the sun is up in the winter and we wanna capture it we can hold those solar heat gain", "so more windows in the south not crazy not greenhouse number but more windows in the south fewer on the east and the west and almost none in the north", "small picture windows so that you're not stuck in a room with no light but not big windows", "if you wanna do that you can", "you can still build a super energy efficient house", "it just won't hit the passive house standard", "it'll be a little worse than the passive house standard", "i called them near passive house and i love near passive house houses because if you're gonna try to hit passive house standard and just not make it you still have a super energy efficient house", "we wanna make sure that when your house is really wellheated by the sun in the winter it's not overheating in the summer", "so we use things like overhangs and shading to make sure that your house doesn't overheat", "there's a maximum overheating of twelve", "that means that something like eight or nine days in the summer your house can go over seventy seven degrees according to passive house standard", "when we make a house really really tight i said six air changes per hour so everybody says well wait a second", "i'm getting that fresh air in my house", "if i stopped that fresh air coming in isn't it gonna be sick aren't i gonna not have enough oxygen and the answer is if you don't bring the air in on purpose yes but what we have is a new technology", "it's like twenty years old it's called a heat recovery ventilation system", "and what heat recovery ventilation system does is it has a heat exchanger in it", "and in that heat exchanger are it's kind of a bunch of straws that pass each other", "and it sucks the warm stale air out of the house and sucks the cold fresh air and it passes them along each other so that the heat from the stale air is transferred to the colder coming in and comes into your house fresh but warmed", "now it's not heated to the seventy degrees you want in your house but some of these european systems are eighty five to ninety efficient which means that if i have a house and it's zero degrees outside and it's seven degrees inside my heat recovery ventilation system is bringing in cold fresh air at fifty eight to sixty degrees", "and then my heat pump my heating system heats from sixty to seventy instead of from zero to seventy and that is key", "and when you put all of these things together including a very small heat source in our environment here in vermont because it's just too cold to do without it you have a super insulated house", "so the passive house concept heat recovery ventilation that uses almost no energy in and of itself triple glazed windows with a thermally broken window frame so that the whole window has an rvalue of seven or better", "we use materials with lowembodied energy", "now you can build a passive house with lots of foam either the blue boards that you see at lowe's or with polyiso or any of these foam products", "the thing about foams is that they take a lot of energy to make", "so you're using a lot of energy to make them and part of the whole passive house concept is to use as little energy as possible to make your house and to run your house", "so we prefer natural products if possible and where we can use them", "we like cellulose which is recycled newspapers", "we like rock wool which is recycled slag from the steel process", "it's a leftover from the steel process", "we like using foam underground below grade", "we like using extruded sorry expanded polystyrene which is what we know as styrofoam", "the blue board is something called extruded polystyrene and it has an enormous global warming potential which means that the gases that it gives off are bad for the environment and it takes a lot of energy to make", "foams where you must and we try to use natural products when we can", "short runs for your domestic hot water which means when we design a house we want all the bathrooms and kitchens pretty much near each other so you don't go from here all the way to here in your house and lose all that heat so you have to run your hot water longer", "and we try to keep our houses compactly designed", "that is a big deal", "it doesn't have to be small", "you can build an eight thousand square foot while you'd want to an eight thousand square foot passive house because it's about how many once again just to run back it's about the load per square foot per year", "as long as you hit that you have a passive house", "but the passive house community is also into less is more", "so we like to make small houses if we can", "and in europe you have a family of four living very happily in one thousand two hundred square feet and thinking they have a lot of room", "and in america that same family has a feeling they need three thousand two hundred square feet", "so we're trying to get people to design houses", "and also houses that are not crazy designs with a lot of bumps out here and there", "because every time you have a change in geometry every time you have a dormer sticking out you have a potential for a thermal bridge", "what do we get when we do all this we have a ninety reduction in heating and cooling compared to the vermont code", "we have a seventy to eighty reduction in our total energy demand superior indoor air quality i'll explain that in a minute occupant comfort this is a big one", "when you are in your normal vermont vernacular house i live in a one thousand nine hundred and seventy raised ranch the feeling of comfort changes from when you're standing in the middle of the room to when you walk towards the window", "the closer you get to the outside wall the colder it gets", "that's why we put our radiators under our windows on our outside walls", "that means that the wall in the middle of your house is actually radiating heat", "that's a more comfortable level than your outside wall which is actually taking heat from you", "in a passive house we strive to have all six sides of the room you're in", "now this room has more than six sides but in general sixsided rooms that they're all radiating the same temperature to you", "and we found through studies that people are comfortable at a lower set temperature if all the surfaces are radiating the same temperature", "we can heat our houses to sixty eight degrees and that's not cold", "we don't need it at seventy two because you're not getting this change in temperature as you move away from the center wall", "lower annual energy costs hello and smaller carbon footprint", "so a lot of people who've heard about passive house say it's really expensive", "and what we found in vermont cause there have been eight built in vermont and there are four more that are in the process of getting certified and there are like seven or eight almost passive houses that they cost between ten and fifty to build brand new", "retrofits they're expensive they're about thirty of the valued house and i'll get into that later", "but what we found interestingly enough is that it doesn't cost the outofpocket cost for a passive house is not more from day one than building a code house", "and when you build a passive house for that six air changes per hour you have to have a builder who builds it so well that you have a much higher quality construction", "you're not gonna have water infiltration into the house where you've thought about if moisture gets in how it gets back out where you've thought about that airtightness and when you get to that point where you need that airtightness then you get a house that has a much longer life span than a standard house more durable", "and then we have people who say yeah but i gotta have my marble kitchen top well what's the payback on a marble kitchen top people always saying how quickly is my investment in passive house paid back well what are you investing in what are you interested in this is actual data from a project team in vermont", "this is the code house and what the mortgage would have been and the energy costs", "and this is a almost passive house", "actually it's not a passive house", "and what the energy costs were and what the extra mortgage was and it shows that the out of pocket from day one is exactly the same", "and as soon as the energy that you're using goes up in price then because your passive house is using ninety less than that house your incremental increase in cost is smaller", "so you're basically making money from day one", "i'm gonna give you a case study so you understand the history in vermont", "this is the first passive house that's ever built in vermont", "this is a habitat for humanity house that is built in charlotte", "it's one thousand and fifty square feet on the inside it's one thousand two hundred square feet on the outside just cause you have 16inch walls", "that's what happens when you're building a passive house to get that r40 fifty sixty outside wall", "right here next to this couch is the only heating source in the whole house", "it's a airtoair heat pump which means that it doesn't have any holes in the ground", "it's just a suitcasesized unit outside", "and if you've ever been in a hotel and you've seen those kind of things on the wall some people call it wallboard that's the inside unit", "so the air's blowing out into that room right there and i'll bring that back up in a minute", "a passive house can look like anything", "this is a vermont vernacular house", "you can also make it look like a contemporary house", "here's the south elevation not a greenhouse", "it's not only windows", "this is the west elevation the east elevation and the north elevation", "you'll notice the north elevation has small windows", "this is the actual house", "you see it's got solar domestic hot water panels on the top", "nice looking house doesn't look crazy", "these are the mechanicals for the house except for the heat pump", "this is the heat recovery ventilation system", "this is a ground source system that actually preheats the air before it gets in during the winter so that the core doesn't freeze", "this is the solar hot water tank and this is the backup because vermont does not have enough sun in the winter we have very cold winters to give you all of your hot water through that system people were worried that because we're only putting heat into this room without any distribution system or ductworks that this room up here would be cold", "but what we found and this chart shows it what we found is that that heat recovery ventilation system is so efficient eighty five efficient that it's actually taking the heat from that room and blowing it up into the first bedroom", "in passive house we use something called whole house ventilation which is where we blow fresh air into our living spaces and we extract air from our moist spaces", "that's our kitchens our bathrooms and our mudrooms", "and what that means is that we're actually drawing air through the house the whole time and it gives a nice fresh air all the way through", "and what we have here is the heat pump in kilowatt hours that outside temperature and the temperatures in the rooms", "now this is actual data from this house from december of two thousand and eleven", "and we now have data that has been collected on this house for almost two years and it is still operating this way", "what you're noticing first of all is that that red line is all over the place", "and if you were living in a code house you'd expect these things which are the inside temperatures to be following that because it gets cold and your house loses heat and your thermostat says turn my furnace on and it turns the furnace on and brings the heat back up and then it all goes away and it goes back up", "so you get this up and down up and down on the inside temperature", "so the first thing you noticed is that the temperatures inside this house are very even", "the outside temperature is fluctuating wildly", "we're down here we're going from forty degrees down to twelve degrees", "the inside temperature is barely changing at all", "the other thing we'll notice is that this orange dot is the room that has that heat pump blowing that warm air in", "the blue diamond at the bottom is the furthest upstairs bedroom", "there's no heat in this bedroom", "the only heat is what that hrv is going back into the house throughout the house", "the temperature differential between the warmest room and the coldest room is four degrees", "so it's seventy two in that living room and it's sixty eight in that bedroom without any distribution ducts except for the hrv", "how's the indoor air quality very important question", "first of all about this graph you need to know that the limit for air quality is one thousand two hundred parts per million", "this maxes out at five hundred and eighty five parts per million", "so if we were to make this graph show it to where the actual limit is for safe air we'd be up by the ceiling", "outdoor air has four hundred and fifty parts per million co2", "so this graph is showing except for some outliers here when there's some cooking done and you can see when people cook in these because the indoor air quality meters can see the rise in the volatile organic compounds that the indoor air quality is hovering around five hundred and fifty parts per million showing that the indoor air quality in this house is better than any house in vermont that was built to any other standard", "when you go into your bedroom at night in your standard house you close the door if you had a co2 meter when you woke up sometimes you're hovering around two thousand which is dangerous", "it's not gonna kill you but it will make you groggy and it will make you lethargic and our kids have to suffer this too", "what does it cost for this person who's living in this house now this is a habitat house", "like i said it was given to this woman", "she has a mortgage on it as well which is given to her", "she has herself and two teenage children living there and her monthly utility cost in january was one hundred and thirty two", "now i have to explain something about that", "that is her total electric bill", "she only used electricity", "that is her heating her hot water her cooking her televisions her computers the xbox is for both of the children and lighting", "average through the year she's spending sixty seven a year for everything", "sixty seven a month through the year", "if you see when they break this out that the heating is only thirteen or fourteen of this they're spending about twenty a month to heat this house on average in vermont for a family of three", "that is what passive house can do", "this is a second home", "this is in norwich", "this is not being lived in for yearround", "the people come up in the weekends", "this is more data", "you recognize this graph now", "there's no heating system on in this house", "this house is only being heated by the sun at this particular time", "here's the outside ambient air temperature", "here are the inside air temperatures", "the hrv is not even on", "see the hrv is not even running it", "it didn't get below fifty degrees with no heat on", "the only thing heating this house at this particular moment is the sun on the coldest day in january of last year brand new data", "so when we look at the energy that houses are using this is more of that data that efficiency vermont has given us", "this is actual data from actual houses in vermont", "the first five are energy star houses", "the last two are passive houses", "actually this is a passive house and this is a near passive house", "and you'll notice immediately that the passive house is using a lot less of everything", "certainly a lot less heating that red bit", "why however is that so high why is this one using three times the heating energy of that it happens that that family is being lived in by the family that lives there was from the sudan and they'd like to keep their house at ninety degrees", "so they're keeping their house at ninety degrees", "yes they're spending four times what this family who was keeping their house at sixty eight degrees is but that's still only sixty a month to heat their house at ninety degrees", "that's actually this house here", "that's where the sudanese family lives", "that's the passive house", "so peter schneider who's given me all this data and who works for efficiency vermont built this as an experiment", "this is a passive house", "this is ten less worse than a passive house and that's fifteen worse than a passive house", "he just wanted to see what he could do", "this is a three thousand two hundred square foot passive house in stowe", "and these slides are just to show you the variety of what a passive house can look like", "it doesn't have to look like anything", "you can decide what it looks like", "you can make something with all kinds of dormers and wings and everything", "a passive house it'll just take a lot more effort to get there", "not my favorite house", "i'm not very fond of the look but it's on piers", "they decided that they didn't wanna build it with a basement or a slab or anything", "so in conclusion with passive house you get a high quality home a healthy living environment slightly more expensive to build payback in three to seven years depending on the fuel you're tracking and we're expecting a high resale value", "i'm saying expecting cause nobody has built a spec passive house", "a spec is it's when someone builds a house puts on the market and lets it sell", "people are as clients having these houses built and they're moving in and they're living there", "so we don't have any houses that have been been sold in the open market", "and net zero energy is easiest to reach by using the passive house standard", "so that's the first presentation", "i don't wanna lull you all with my sonorous tones into too deep a stupor", "passive yeah into a stupor", "but i did i know that a lot of people have houses and they wanna know what it takes to make a house that you already have into a passive house", "now my house isn't a passive house", "you see all that four hundred and seventy five with retrofits", "it's actually more like eight kilobtus per square foot per year and i got mine to something on the order of twelve", "so it's three times as bad as a passive house but i did get my house from one hundred and ten thousand btu per hour heating system to twenty four thousand btus per hour", "so i've reduced my load by seventy five", "so when i bought this house four years ago i have these two garages", "those two garages are under my bedrooms", "the first winter we had frozen feet whenever we walked from the conditioned space below over to our bedrooms", "now we like our bedrooms a little chilly but we didn't like them that chilly", "so i have a northwest orientation with the ridge which means i have eastwest orientation with the main access for my building exactly the wrong orientation", "i have a heated garage it was wonderful", "it went from my furnace", "i had a hydronic heating or baseboard heating", "it went into my daughter's room then into this garage and then in my son's room and then into my bedroom and then back into the garage and then into my bathroom", "by the time that circuit got to the bathroom there was no heat left in it", "i was heating the outside literally", "now you all know what a raised ranch is right you've got about two to three feet of cinder block wall on the bottom", "you've got a walkout basement which is where the garage is", "and then it's all frame going up", "when i moved in it was originally singlepane windows and i just moved here from the netherlands where they have pretty good windows and i said to the local contractor whose name i will not divulge because i don't think that he deserves to be beat up about this cause he just didn't know any better", "i said what are the best windows you can find me and he said oh andersen super lowe", "they're the best thing around so i said well you're the expert", "i just moved here", "i've been living in europe for ten years", "get them for me and put them in cause they're better than single pane and he did and it costed me fifteen thousand which is what a set of windows would cost you", "and as soon as i finished having them installed i took the passive house course and i fell over dead", "cause i was like oh for seven thousand more dollars i could have had the best windows in the world", "triple glazed with a thermally broken frame the whole thing but didn't okay so in my renovation plan i decided i'm not gonna replace these windows i just bought", "i'm just gonna live with the fact that i have these windows", "there are two bed downsides to these windows", "they're double hung so that they're very leaky", "so i can't make that air changes of point", "now with the retrofits it's one air change per hour instead of six but i can't hit that", "the other thing is that they have a horrible solar heat gain coefficient that three", "they have an uvalue of twenty nine which is like rvalue of three", "and okay", "it has a couple of good things going on", "it has some fiberglass in the walls the twobyfour walls", "now as a person studying auditing i have learned that you cannot install fiberglass so that you get the number rated on the package", "the package says rvalue of thirty three per inch", "but if you go like that to fiberglass it's got an rvalue of one or two", "and who doesn't do that with fiberglass and if you do that with fiberglass and then try to pull it apart you're still not doing it", "no one even the best installers cannot install fiberglass to the rating it's given in the factory impossible", "they even have grades of insulation installation one two and three where one is the best and three is the worst", "and they even say in some of the standards you cannot get fiberglass to class one installation it's impossible", "so i'm saying that i've got an r11 wall but i know that it's really like an r7 or eight best case scenario", "no insulation on the cinder block wall above or below grade no insulation on my slab and twelve inches of blowin cellulose in the attic but my top plates are completely unsealed", "so as my hot air rises right as we're talking about that as my hot air rises it hits the ceiling in my roof goes through the holes and gaps in my ceiling goes through my insulation making it absolutely worthless creating a negative pressure plane sucking cold air through the holes in the bottom of my house just creating this convective current which is just spilling energy out of my house", "what do i have i've got a 30yearold oil burner that was about eighty efficient", "i was using between five hundred and seven hundred gallons of oil and three cords of wood to heat that house", "when i first moved there i said i've been living in a house that always had natural gas cause i lived in a city and i didn't really feel like heating with wood and then i got the oil bill because i used a tank a month and i was like wait a second", "this stuff costs three a gallon", "and okay i'm gonna learn how to stoke wood in my wood stove and i did and i went through seven hundred gallons of oil and three cords of wood and i learned that you spend an hour a day tending a fire when you have a wood stove at home and that's life", "and i got used to it", "i even like it now it's kind of cool", "but at the beginning i was like", "so i have one bathroom fan that you know not continuous but i can turn it on to one hundred and twenty cfm", "cfm is cubic feet per minute", "in the initial blower door test which i've actually done at your house and i've done it at her house and i actually recommend that anyone who's interested in doing any upgrades to your house first have a professional come and do a real audit with a blower door test was eight hundred and twenty five air changes per hour", "that means with a twenty two twelve mile per hour wind and zero degree air outside and sixty eight to seventy two degree air inside my house every seven minutes my furnace had to turn on to reheat the air that was just blown into my house", "now that does mean however that if it's a forty mile per hour wind that's happening a lot faster", "so vermont is a climate zone six cold humid with seven thousand two hundred heating degree days", "heating degree days are based on the amount of time and the number of degrees that it is below sixty eight degrees that you have to heat for", "so what do i have to do so i took the class the chpc that's the certified passive house it's actually phc that's a spelling error is a certified passive house consultant test", "and i learned that these things stink", "never buy them talk to me first", "i will get you more expensive but awesome windows", "so what was i gonna do first thing i was going to remove the garage", "i was gonna frame the garage out", "i was gonna add a sixinch sweater of polyiso foam to the outside", "now why polyiso polyisocyanurate board is got a very high rvalue and you can buy used very cheaply which means that i'm saving it from going into a landfill i'm not causing them to make more for me and i'm getting a high rvalue", "i found a guy who told the guy who sent it over", "i got all of my insulation external insulation for this job for four thousand seven hundred", "that's not the cost", "the cost was all the work that had to be done", "i did a modified chainsaw retrofit which means that i was trying to eliminate thermal bridging", "where your ceiling is if you have a flat ceiling a cathedral ceiling is different your twobyfour's running along like this and you have a top plate and then you have the ceiling joist that goes like that and actually sticks out to make your eave", "well this bit that sticks out that's actually a fin allowing heat to go up and out of your house and i want to eliminate that", "so i cut a bit out and made sure that when i put that six inches of insulation in it made a continuous insulation layer with the cellulose in my attic", "i'm also adding seven twelve inches of rock wool downstairs on the inside because you have that bump out with the cinder block wall and i decided i just wanted to fill that up", "so after that insulation on the outside i wanted to airseal the whole house", "i had a bay window on the front which was a horrible leaky thing that was just hemorrhaging air", "and if i'm gonna put six inches onto my house then suddenly that bay window it's got this really weird detail", "how do i have six inches sticking out but the window starts here how do i actually make that work in the new i just decided to rip it out", "i ripped my oil burner out", "the other day a guy came and took my oil tank away", "i have pictures of it", "and i was like dancing it was one of my happiest days ever", "i bought myself a really expensive but very good hrv", "it costs about five thousand five hundred and i'm doing the installation myself and my budget is seventy thousand", "my sorry hrv heat recovery ventilation", "that was that thing that passes the heat over", "is that the same thing as an air exchanger an air exchanger unit does not have to have heat recovery in it", "there are air exchangers that just bring the cold air in and take the warm air out and don't do a heat transfer", "so that's why we have heat recovery ventilation hrv and entropy recovery ventilation erv which also brings the humidity and keeps the humidity between the two places balanced", "i don't like that", "we live in a very humid environment", "i don't wanna bring that humidity into my house", "i prefer an hrv", "so i'm not replacing my windows", "i already did it", "i got twenty years with these stupid windows", "unless some rich relative that i don't know dies i'm stuck with em", "so the first thing i did was get rid of the garage", "so here are the guys", "i hired a local contractor who i'd never hire again", "doesn't that happen you hire a contractor and you say boy we're gonna do this project", "isn't it gonna be great and then you just at the end you're like here's the money i'm not gonna argue about it but i never wanna see you again not a bad guy he just doesn't know any better", "so you saw at the very beginning of the thing there's my garage there's my garage gone", "he didn't even know we shouldn't be using tyvek anymore", "if you build a house and someone says let's put tyvek on the outside and make sure that when we put the fiberglass in the wall make sure you put a thing of poly of that clear plastic on the inside that's death to a wall", "what you're doing is you're ensuring that any moisture that gets trapped in that wall never gets out", "and if we're sheathing our houses with osb oriented strand board that's predigested wood which means as soon as it gets wet it turns to mush", "you've seen it", "if you leave that stuff out in the rain a week later you can just squeeze the water out of it", "as soon as the epoxy that's holding it together is gone it's worthless", "we are now building houses that have what we call double vapor open walls", "we allow the moisture to get in when it has to not moisture vapor", "what's the difference moisture is droplets that you can actually see on the surface of something vapor there's vapor in this room that's just gaseous water", "gaseous water can move into the wall and move out of the wall", "as long as it doesn't get to the point where the dew point is met inside the wall you have no problem", "here's the insulation", "so it's three thousand nine hundred for the entire project but it was five hundred for delivery", "so there's your four thousand five hundred what do you do here's the modified chainsaw so here's my wall coming up and here's my ceiling joist coming out and that's my roof joist my truss my it's actually gusset this is called a gusset", "and so this is a twobyfour coming out that way", "and i didn't want the insulation that i was gonna have here", "i wanted it to attach to this installation", "so i have a complete insulation wrapped around the house", "i don't have this and then a break and then that cause that point will allow moisture to i mean heat to get out", "so this is my thumb that's my mouth", "this is what i did to my joist", "my joist comes out", "this is the house there's the tyvek", "and now what i'm doing is i'm cutting out this mouth so i can shove the insulation up here and i'm gonna have other insulation blowin cellulose is gonna meet it right here", "so there's no point at which this piece of wood that is then sticking out is going directly to the wood that's in my ceiling causing that thermal bridge and allowing heat to escape that way", "and here you see just the mouths that i cut and here's the osb i put on the inside so that i could blow insulation", "so you could actually say well that's a thermal bridge and you're right but it's this thick", "and the thermal bridging is insignificant", "so air sealing in the attic you can see here my contractor jim bradley from caleb construction who isn't someone who i sent away after i hired him", "he's the best contractor i've ever seen honest to a fault", "does the best work i've ever seen his crew is great", "this is all the spray foam that he did against that osb that you just saw giving me an rvalue here", "then he's then going to go ahead and fill that with cellulose and not a little bit of sorry this is my nephew", "i'm sorry i lost that", "that's my son yeah there you go", "i blew twenty four inches of cellulose into my attic", "i wanted thirty but twenty four is enough", "that gives me an r88 up there", "and because i had him foam all the top plates and all the recess lights all that heat is staying in my house instead of going up and through my cellulose making it worthless", "what's my son doing here", "i had an attached deck", "attached deck is a you have your band joist going around your house right that your floor membranes are sitting on top of and then to make a deck they just stick a plate to the side that they call ledger board", "and that is directly attached to my band joist", "that is the floor joist going around the perimeter of the house", "that's a great place for water to get into and to rot but it's also a thermal bridge allowing heat to come out", "so i said instead of doing that i'm gonna put a bunch of fourbyfours on stilts into the ground", "that's one of the holes that we dug and that's my nephew", "and right here i have a gap of about a foot right now", "i'm gonna be able to be building that back", "but there is no connection between my deck and my house", "had the front stairs the same thing", "it was a little deck", "i pulled it away i'm gonna put it on stilts", "it's not gonna be attached to my house", "i like the deck i use it daily but i don't want it to cause this problem", "so here i have some friends who are helping me do that and that's the gap now", "here's my house here's my deck", "you can tell everybody to jump", "yeah well no i've built it out", "this is the same thing", "the guy who i bought the house from had this concrete precast stairs that he thought were ugly so he built something on top of it but it's attached to the house", "so i ripped it off i broke it up and when i was done i am rebuilding it back on but not attached to the house", "something i did myself because i happened to have had the time to do it is that i bought myself a tagalong backhoe for three grand cause renting them was one hundred and fifty a day", "and i figure i'm gonna need it for a couple of weeks and i dug down to the foundation of my house and i put six inches of eps around the entire foundation and then i put this stuff this is a bituminous coating with a vinyl cover that actually protects the eps from water", "now a lot of builders will say oh eps is waterproof", "oh xps is waterproof absolute malarkey anyone who's ever been to a beach and been on a floating deck and had to haul one of those floating decks that used eps as a float knows that that stuff gets waterlogged", "and the science is now showing that eps loses its rvalue at about a half an inch a year because it exchanges the gases that are in it for the water that's pushing up against it", "and water is conductive", "so not only are you losing the rvalue but you're bringing water against your house when you do that", "you have to have a moisture barrier", "oh they do", "yeah", "yeah you gotta be careful", "so i put in a fresh perimeter drain around the whole thing and here's me putting it back in with my friend's kubota", "it's nice having people who like collecting big tools", "we ripped all of the siding off", "the vinyl siding was beginning to crack anyway and my wife hated the light blue", "so this is the first course of that threeinch polyiso i put on the house", "there's the two inches and around the windows i decided not to move the windows out to the outside plane i decided to leave them in personal choice", "and there's my bay window you see it's gone i ripped it out", "then i used this highquality european barrier", "this is a vapor barrier and an air barrier and i used this highefficiency tape and i went from eight hundred and twenty five air changes per hour at fifty pascals to two air changes per hour so seventy seven reduction", "the strapping is on there because when we do all this work we actually wanna have a plane for drying", "we want to allow any moisture that gets in to have somewhere to dry to", "so i put strapping thirty four inch strapping in and then i put the vinyl siding back on top of that", "here's the window bucks that we put in using this nice jig", "that's what it looks like on and then they framed it around with a nice trim", "there's my window i ripped it out and now it looks like that", "i was amazed i thought that i had a great view with this window with the fivebyfive and then the two side windows", "the second that this window was put on we were all like wow what a beautiful view i have mount mansfield right out in front of my head in front of my house", "a chimney we all have chimneys", "some of us are lucky enough to have a chimney inside the house where it heats the houses as it gets warm", "not me i have a chimney outside the house", "not only outside the house but on the north side of the house great", "i decided that i didn't wanna break it off", "although i had a deep need to get up there and knock the bricks out but i decided that was a part of my mix", "i needed to keep wood in the mix because sometimes the power goes out for days at a time maybe a week at a time and i don't have a passive house that i can be sure will be at that sixty degrees with no heat at minus ten degrees for a week", "i'm pretty sure it would be above freezing but i don't think we'd be there", "so i decided to keep it but i decided to wrap it", "so i wrapped it with roxul", "roxul like i said is made from the slag slag from the steel industry which means that it is fireproof", "in boilers they wrap boilers in this stuff", "what'd you call it rock wool is the name of the actual stuff roxul is the company that makes it", "and then i wrapped it again and in the end it also has a siding around it up to that point", "this is that cinder block wall", "i decided that i was gonna add two inches of insulation", "so i have six inches of that poly of that styrofoam outside i put two inches on the inside and i'm building the whole wall out to meet that", "instead of having that step that you often have downstairs where everybody puts their books i decided i just wanted the wall", "i sacrificed the extra square footage", "i don't care i want a straight wall downstairs", "it's just a personal thing", "my final wall value is an r66 which is passive house standard", "here's the buildout", "this is just one of the walls", "this is the original stud wall", "i put another stud on just a twobyfour stud so i could get two layers of three 12inch rock wool in there making seven inches", "and this is what it looks like", "this is an intelligent membrane", "this is a membrane that senses where the vapor drive is coming from", "and the vapor drive is coming from inside the room towards the material", "it closes down and has a perm rating of four", "perm rating is the amount of moisture that it'll led in", "and when it feels the vapor drive from the inside of the wall that opens up and has a perm rating of thirty four", "so moisture that's inside the wall can very easily transpirate into the house", "what i did on top of that is i put twobythree stringers on top of this so that i have a two twelve inch gap between this and my wall allowing a drying plane so the moisture can get out", "it also gives me a handy place to run wires and stuff", "i decided that i was going to turn my chimney into a sealed combustion", "do you all know the difference between atmospherically vented and sealed combustion atmospherically vented means that if you have a wood stove or oil furnace or an oil boiler it takes the combustion air from the room and it uses that for the combustion process and then sends it to the chimney", "my house is too tight for that", "if you have a leaky house it's creating a negative when you're burning your wood stove it's actually creating a negative pressure sucking air from the outside in to give you air to go up the chimney", "sealed combustion means that you have a pipe that brings fresh air to the unit and then out the chimneys so you'll have a complete circuit that does not include the indoor air", "in order to do that i had to hire a company to do that", "this is from the outside going through the rock wool", "this is the tube this is me making it all", "that's my daughter helping me out", "and this is what it looks like in the end", "that's the fresh air supply", "that is attached on the inside to my wood stove", "so when the wood stove acts for air the air doesn't come from the room it comes from outside yeah chris do all wood stoves no you have to be very careful", "as a matter of fact i had an pendleton avalon and i thought that i could buy an outside air unit for it and i found out afterwards that i couldn't so i had to get rid of my wood stove and buy a brand new wood stove", "i bought a hearthstone that had that attached to it", "had a larger burn box so i decided just to upgrade altogether since i had it anyway", "and a 12hour burn time instead of six which means that instead of an hour maybe i can spend only fifty minutes doing my wood stove", "when i'm doing my air sealing when i am in a passive house or in a house that i'm trying to make really tight every hole in your wall is going to increase your air changes per hour", "so i need to catalog every hole in the wall i need to talk to every contractor every subcontractor and say look we worked our butts off to make sure this was gonna have a very low air changes per hour", "if you make a hole in the wall tell me and i will seal it and we had a real problem at the beginning when we had the vinyl sliders come up", "they wanted to use that inch and a half nail and we said no you're using a 34inch nail because we don't want it go in through our air barrier electrical sockets well water supply hose outside garden hose flora drains in the garage fresh air supply for the wood stove all had to be air sealed my cat decided that my very expensive membrane was a scratching post", "so i realized that and stopped her from doing it and then i had to fill it up", "there's the pump that's my old access hatch", "i have access to the gable ends now", "i don't have any access to the house", "this is a drain in what was the garage that had to get covered up", "and i had to get the hrv installed which in a house that is being lived in is hard", "so i went into closets as much as possible", "fortunately the basement was not all that finished so i have an opportunity", "so here's the end i ended up with", "i have a heating plant fifty five thousand btu wood stove and a twenty two thousand five hundred btu heat pump which works at that efficiency two hundred and fifty efficient to five degrees fahrenheit and then it loses output down to eighteen", "so this heat pump works down to eighteen but it gives off less btus", "so it's expensive", "it costs me seventy thousand to do this work and i wasn't paying myself for my time", "so if you add my time i'm estimating around eighty five thousand for this project", "that is a third of the value of my house", "my payback if i'm looking at oil which is what it'll replace is somewhere on the order of ten to thirteen years depending on that's where the two increase in oil cause i wanted to be conservative", "when i'm doing my calculations i'd like to paint a rosy picture and say i'm expecting a five increase or a seven even historically at seventy five increase that brings my payback down to about seven years which is pretty good at that point", "so these are the numbers which i'm more than happy to let you stare at but it doesn't help the pain the fact that it costs so much", "i happen to be very fortunate that i had a lot of equity in the house", "when we bought the house we had a big down payment and i could take the equity out", "but here's the key i've reduced my heat load by seventy five three times worse than the passive house retrofit numbers but i don't care", "i have my heat pump on now", "we had a 21degree day the other day my hrv isn't even working so it's not redistributing the heat in the house", "the heat pump was set at seventy two", "the coldest bedroom was seventy degrees", "i'm in heaven", "and the heat pump like i said is two hundred and fifty efficient", "that becomes because it has a", "part of the heating mechanism is that it boils a refrigerant", "that refrigerant boils at fifty four degrees fahrenheit", "that means that even at fifteen degrees fahrenheit there's enough heat in the air to boil that refrigerant and that's where the efficiency comes in", "that's why it can be above one hundred because we put one kilowatt of energy and you get twenty five kilowatts of heat out of it", "this is the actual blower door test it was four hundred and twenty five", "we actually got it down to three hundred and ninety five and we're gonna do another blower door test when we're done and hopefully we'd be down in the the thirty five range which will bring my air changes per hour down to seventeen or something which is awesome", "when it was forty five degrees out i didn't have to heat my house", "just us the cooking and things like that were heating the house", "so it's its own payback", "that's what the house looks like now", "and jc who is jc earl who's a member of the group the energy committee is going to be setting up a tour of my house and also of the shelburne almost passive house that i helped design and built with tom moordown in shelburne and we're gonna try to get that together in january", "he was gonna try to do it in december but i'm leaving in december and we wanna make it work", "so if you're interested in seeing my renovation you can make an the appointment just to come and see me or you can wait for the tour", "if you're interested in seeing that almost passive house in shelburne you can let me know about that and we can arrange that and you can come with a group through the energy committee", "and if you're interested please if you know someone who is planning to build a house have them talk to me before they do", "don't let them build a house that is gonna cost them three thousand five hundred a year to heat when we can build them a house for almost no more money fifty more down but no more outofpocket per month money that they'll be able to heat for four hundred a month in the winter", "any questions i know it's a lot to take in", "i apologize for being wordy", "i hope i was lively enough that you're not all falling asleep", "are there questions i got one", "yes david", "chris did an audit on our house which is probably two or three times the size of your house and i was feeling really bad afterwards but now i don't feel so bad", "i felt bad for you", "oh gosh", "you have a big house", "yeah yeah", "that's the way til i get the bulldozer", "well there are some people who i would suggest if you want to work on your house sometimes the best way to work on your house is to sell it and build a passive house", "oh no did you just say that to us i did", "oh okay", "although i felt really bad", "although i must say that if you want a house that is really going to be super energy efficient the only way to do it is to build it new or do what i did which is throw money at it", "it's a great house i love this house", "well i'm an engineer", "engineers are into function over form in general", "so i want the thing to work well i don't care so much about the aesthetics", "it's a raised ranch is it pretty are raised ranches pretty no not in my opinion but i don't care", "it's warm and it's a place where we have our happy family and our dog and our two cats and our mouse and that's the mouse that we have on purpose by the way", "when you make a house really energy efficient you don't have mouse problems you don't have a mouse yes anything on mice we have lots of mice that come in especially around this season", "yeah and so the walls are fourinch walls", "they had oh what's the", "the xps", "the fiberglass insulation batts", "okay yup", "every time i've undone a wall in the garage or somewhere and looked at that in the basement to look at that stuff it's black with dirt", "yup", "it's full of mouse channels and everything", "so the rvalue's probably down from eleven to about what half or something one", "first of all if you've seen black when you open up a wall if you see black in your fiberglass you have airwashing", "airwashing is where there's air infiltrating into your wall and blowing cold air through your insulation and taking that insulated value and making it zero", "it's as if it was empty because the house have to heat that back up and then it's getting washed again and heating it up", "it's just like the inside of the house", "so the rvalue especially if you know you have rodent activity because what's happening then is that the feces and urine are becoming blown throughout the house and you're getting that in your house", "it's just unhealthy", "in that situation there are a couple of things that you can do", "you can rip all the drywall in your house out and start again", "and if you're gonna do that at least talk to me and i'll give you some ideas", "you can do what i did which is rip the outside of the house out and add a whole bunch of insulation", "the reason that mice come into your house is cause there's access it's warm and they can smell food because your house is just blowing when the wind blows this way it's blowing it out this way", "and all the smells of that food are going out into the world", "and every one of these hungry cold mice are thinking nirvana", "they are and i can't tell you how many times we go into a house that has supposedly insulated walls and we looked and you just see these squirly little pathways where the mice or squirrels or whatever voles shrews all of these little rodents get in there and they love it", "they just love it it's a great place to raise a family", "and when i pulled down the insulation of my house i had a mask on and i was using a hepa filter vacuum cleaner because the hantavirus although we don't have it in our area is caused by dried rodent feces", "so it's not just kind of bad for you it's really bad for you", "and i know your house and i know that at some point you guys would probably be well off taking the siding off and putting your siding on", "and if you get there then you do this", "then you buy cheap insulation you hire jim and his guys come in do the whole job", "they go up in your attic and they seal it all up and then you can heat your house with your ground source heat pump which is what you should be want it's what you want", "you do it anyway but you're living in that house at fifty five degrees which is okay you can make that choice but that's not the choice", "yeah it is a forced choice that's not a choice on purpose", "yeah", "right cause that you have that old cast iron radiator in the upstairs rooms and you're putting your heat pump water through there", "i've been to their house", "and that radiator is not rated for that", "and the water's in the right temperature to bring that room up to anywhere near comfortable levels", "but if you did this to it and got rid of that garage and made that garage conditioned space you would have a really nice house warmthwise", "you have a very nice house feelingwise", "yes andrew", "do you attach the eps the slabs to the outside of the house to the cement part no to the sheathing", "okay now that's a good question", "now that's not the eps right because the eps was only attached to the cinder block", "you're talking about this stuff", "the recycled yeah what we did is we did it in two courses and these are washers and we used screws", "and jim he had an opportunity because my basement was on drywall it had no sheet rock", "you could go in and say there's a stud here there's a stud here there's this stud here and when we pulled the sheathing off we saw that the sheathing they put on my house was homasote", "homasote is sound board", "they have that on the exterior the exterior sheathing is homasote except in the corners where they thought we needed a little structure so we're gonna put some halfinch plywood that's it if you're not familiar with homasote it's a paper product", "yeah you can crumble it in your fingers", "it's got an rvalue but it's got absolutely no air stopping power at all and it's not structural and it should've never been used there but it was really common in 1970s cause it was really cheap to put plywood on the corners and homasote the whole thing and that's what they did in my house so", "it seemed like a good idea", "it seemed like a good idea at the time", "well for the builder it was a good idea cause they wanted the cheapest house they could build", "so they went through and they found the studs and they actually had to go and buy a 10inch screw even though it's only six inches of insulation because the eightinch screw was just not getting into the stud enough", "so in the places where the screw wandered and didn't get in on the inside i had basically a two inch end of a screw sticking out that i broke off", "so that's how they did it", "and it is all sitting on top of the eps as you can see here", "so it's not just hanging there", "that's how they did it", "and then they put another layer on top of the bigger screws and just longer screws", "there was a lot of work", "i mean this part of the project was forty two thousand", "and then i wanted that bay window replaced with a flat window and that costed me another four thousand", "and the taping took more time than they were expecting with the typar we just got", "nobody takes typar or tyvek and it does nothing if you don't tape it", "and when we went through and i had them use this super mento one thousand this amazing european this german air barrier they had to spend much more time with the taping than they thought they were going to", "so that costs me another three thousand more than expected and that brought me up to my about fifty thousand that i paid jim to do work", "isn't that adding to the moral of the story that the more detail you put in on the insulating the better off you are airtightness if you're gonna do anything to your house make it airtight first", "it takes whatever the rvalue is of your insulation except of course it doesn't mice are not insulative", "and increases it the second you stop that airwashing you're saving the value of that insulation", "although i must say when we go and we do an audit it's almost always the case that we tell the people you've gotta get this insulation out of here it's full of mice rodent droppings it's not functioning and it's not sitting properly and like i said in the beginning you cannot install fiberglass to the r33 that they say on the box it's impossible", "they do it in a factory laboratory and there it's possible", "you don't live in a factory laboratory you live in the house", "it's just like the spray foam", "they say you can only spray it if it's eighty degrees and there's no dust and there's no moisture", "and that's the best time to do it", "yeah i know lots of construction sites that have no dust and no moisture and it's eighty degrees yeah perfect so", "but yes i suggest spend your time and effort making it airtight first", "and that's what any good bpi it's building no it's been a long day", "building perform building performance institute certified auditor will do", "he'll say the lowhanging fruit is air sealing make your house tight and any installation that's in there is good", "and that includes getting up into the attic and all of the framing", "cause the way people build houses i hate to drone on please stop me if you're getting bored but when you build a house what they should do is they should build a house before they build any internal walls they should put sheet rock up and then they should build the internal walls", "that's your air barrier into the attic but they don't do that", "they frame the walls and then they put the sheet rock on and then you have these pathways through these walls into your attic which is what creates that convective current which we see in every house we go to", "and nobody knew then that they were creating a convective pathway cause it's not more expensive or take more time to put the sheet rock up first it's just something they didn't do because the sheet rock guy came next week and that was easier", "so if you just had a crew that put the thing the sheet rock up under your ceiling before they put the internal walls in you wouldn't have to have someone crawling in and taking your cellulose away and spraying the top plates to make sure they're sealed", "i gotta say once we had it we had it done the stages and the first thing we had done was the top plates were sealed the house was instantly more comfortable", "i mean instantly it was amazing how much that changed because then the air was not escaping through the top it wasn't creating a negative pressure plane that was sucking in cold air from the bottom it just changed the way the whole house operates", "air sealing first", "and get an audit", "really it's four hundred", "you're spending the money that you'll save from the work that you'll get done in the audit maybe five six thousand worth of work will be paid back within the first four years", "cause you usually get a thirty savings on your fuel use and most of us are spending what three four thousand a year on fuel oil easy", "never mind the wood", "i mean put it together", "that's it right there you're saving it", "and we're at a point where oil is not gonna get cheaper and we don't have enough people getting access to natural gas", "there's some buying groups for propane now", "you can get propane moderately cheaply but that's gonna change", "it's very important in my industry to know what's happening with natural gas prices because fracking has made natural gas very cheap", "well what's happened is that nobody's building coalfired plants anymore", "everybody's building natural gasfired plants which means that this glut that we have in natural gas is gonna be used by all these industries that see how cheap natural gas is and the glut's gonna disappear and we're gonna have a rise in the price which is gonna make more fracking", "i mean this one goes wonderful circles that we call this as", "so let's get off of that by making our houses once again that triangle reduce first reduce your load first", "any other questions thank you so much for your attention", "thank you thank you", "yes", "i don't even wanna know really"], "name": ["Passive_Houses_Presentation/Passive_Houses_Presentation/Passive_Houses_Presentation_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "Passive_Houses_Presentation/Passive_Houses_Presentation/Passive_Houses_Presentation_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "Passive_Houses_Presentation/Passive_Houses_Presentation/Passive_Houses_Presentation_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "Passive_Houses_Presentation/Passive_Houses_Presentation/Passive_Houses_Presentation_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "Passive_Houses_Presentation/Passive_Houses_Presentation/Passive_Houses_Presentation_DOT_flac_00004.flac", "Passive_Houses_Presentation/Passive_Houses_Presentation/Passive_Houses_Presentation_DOT_flac_00005.flac", 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-{"audio_document_id": "PermanentCha_3.flac", "identifier": "PermanentCha_3", "text_document_id": "PermanentCha_3.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [4220, 3250, 6470, 4170, 10683, 4233, 7780, 6470, 11533, 4850, 3950, 9300, 4683, 3073, 8570, 6213, 8323, 11220, 6433, 1823, 8753, 3973, 6650, 9950, 12450, 2373, 5630, 3970, 5943, 5800, 6900, 6523, 8253, 12933, 5043, 5290, 7313, 5230, 5833, 10760, 11900, 8420, 4653, 10943, 5540, 4173, 9140, 8013, 7330, 6813, 7053, 1710, 9250, 14563, 4340, 3703, 7113, 5472, 6250, 7093, 4480, 7890, 11273, 8653, 6250, 6700, 5683, 2670, 11090, 22450, 4582, 10605, 12163, 5703, 11593, 6210, 7673, 7640, 4730, 5653, 11170, 4463, 7523, 3950, 6300, 4820, 2883, 2840, 7070, 2990, 1783, 11390], "label": ["economy apartments and houses are almost always unfurnished", "the rooms are usually smaller than stateside", "there are no closets and the landlord does not provide any household appliances or light fixtures", "in almost all cases communities will furnish these items", "finding economy housing that suits you may take time and effort and a lot of patience especially if you're assigned to a remote site in or near a popular vacation spot", "your sponsor will be able to help you both before and after you arrive", "if you're assigned to vicenza the housing referral office will help you make arrangements once you found something satisfactory", "in other locations the local command through your sponsor will be your primary source of help", "as a protection to you an hro official in vicenza is required to review any contract you sign with an italian landlord along with a pre and postinspection of the quarters", "rents for economy apartments will vary according to size and location", "frequently you will get more for your money than in the states", "keep in mind however that you will be required to pay a security deposit of up to two or three months rent plus a utility hookup fee", "this can total as much as one thousand five hundred", "this amount could be lower depending on where you are assigned", "wherever you end up living the government will provide you with major appliances such as refrigerators stove washer and dryer", "basic furniture is provided on a temporary basis of up to ninety days or until your own arrives", "as you plan what to bring remember the rooms are usually small and not everything you have may fit or be appropriate", "for example electrical power in italy is generally 220volt 50cycle except in villaggio della pace units where there is 110volt 50cycle power", "that means that your one hundred and ten appliances will work there but any motordriven appliances will run slower", "this affects what you should bring", "lamps are okay with italian current they just need 220volt bulbs and inexpensive adapter plugs for european style outlets", "radios will operate with transformers you can buy at the px", "tape and record players run slower on 50cycle current and will have to be modified at the px", "if you do not live in villaggio della pace your us television set can be modified to receive us programs as well as programs from italian television", "residents in villaggio della pace can also receive programming by cable from the armed forces television service and the southern european broadcasting network seb without any conversions", "just plug in the tv and turn it on", "telephone service in italy is adequate but new phones are in short supply", "getting one may take you several months even up to a year", "should an emergency occur at home during that period your family will have to reach you through the red cross", "all this sort of thing can be spelled out for you by your local army community service office", "in fact once you're here you can turn to acs to help you get settled into your new quarters", "they have lending closets where you can borrow household utensils and other items on a temporary basis", "and they can provide you with all kinds of assistance services and information about local facilities and community resources", "since finding appropriate housing on the economy may take several months or even longer you will probably begin your tour in italy by living in temporary housing for example the guest house at caserma ederle", "or you may be required to live in a local italian hotel near your duty station", "after housing a major concern most families have is school for the kids", "the vicenza american school is an excellent fully accredited us type school covering grades kindergarten through twelve", "a similar school located in livorno serves students from camp darby", "children of family station at remote sites are taught at american schools in ariano and livorno", "since there are some sites that are simply too distant to permit busing of students to us schools you should advise your sponsor of your children's specific educational needs", "if your family requires special education services you should contact your local acs and milpo and inquire about the army's exceptional family member program", "the us schools in italy have hot lunch programs club activities and sports programs similar to those in the states", "plus they offer field trips and learning experiences in the italian culture", "a daycare center is operated in vicenza at caserma ederle and the camp darby on a schedule that may be handy if your spouse wants to go to work to help supplement the family income", "every effort is made to help army spouses find jobs on us military installations", "however there are usually more applicants than there are jobs available", "in addition to childoriented education and daycare the army offers a number of continuing education programs for adults in italy", "they range from prehigh school remedial and refresher studies to college level and advanced graduate degree programs", "something else you ought to think about is how you and your family are going to get around while you're in italy", "facilities over here are normally dispersed so you'll have to make frequent trips especially if you live on the economy", "public transportation is excellent and inexpensive but many people still want to have their own private vehicle", "keep this in mind", "italy and usa ctef require us private vehicles to pass rigid safety inspections before they are allowed to be driven", "check with your current installation transportation office to find out about auto safety standards in italy and greece so you can make any needed repairs or modifications before you depart or make a decision whether to bring it at all", "in turkey you are not authorized to have a privately owned vehicle", "driving in italy and in greece is different than back home", "many streets in the towns are very narrow and handling and parking a car especially a large one can be difficult", "on the autostradas driving is faster with fewer constraints", "you will be required to learn the local laws to qualify for a command issued driver's license", "and you will also be required to have liability insurance with collision and comprehensive suggested for your peace of mind", "insurance rates are high and should be considered in your financial planning", "you may have gathered by now that a pcs to southern europe can involve some substantial onetime cost to get started", "despite the fact that work is being done to reduce these costs the success of your stay may be determined by how well you're prepared to handle the required financial obligations involved in a move abroad", "you will be paid in dollars which you can use for purchases in us facilities but you must use italian lira for purchases on the economy", "your purchasing power off the base depends on the rate of exchange which changes frequently", "when the dollar is strong you get more lira for each dollar so you're able to buy more italian goods", "but when the dollar weakens you can buy less so you should be prepared to budget carefully", "this cannot be overemphasized", "an assignment in southern europe will be a satisfying and rewarding experience when you plan ahead for your trip and are prepared to meet your financial obligations", "discuss your specific situation with your sponsor or acs financial counselor and arrive knowing that you will not be overextended financially then you'll be able to do your job as a soldier effectively and efficiently and you'll be able to take the fullest advantage of the opportunities open to you in this interesting country", "you can enjoy visits to picture book locales that will take your breath away", "you will be able to join regularly scheduled trips to ski resorts in the nearby dolomite mountains arranged by usmcav the us military community activity vicenza", "if you aren't a skier now you can be by the time you complete your tour here", "you'll also have plenty of time to participate in a variety of other outdoor recreational activities", "you may especially enjoy the popular sport of volksmarching walking in groups along a specified course through local forests or through historic areas of famous cities or towns", "you can enjoy the famous food and wine of italy in a variety of different eating places", "you will learn that over here the main meal is at midday followed by a period of relaxation or proposal", "as you meet the italian people of northern italy you will learn that they're generally attractive intelligent and welldressed", "like all other cultures they have some customs that are different from our own", "your sponsor can help acquaint you with italian customs to help you make your stay here more enjoyable", "the bottom line of a successful experience here in italy is being able to communicate with the local people and that begins with attempting to learn the language", "the army's gateway or head start programs are good places to begin", "when you can converse in italian you'll be able to make friends easier and enjoy your travels in italy to the fullest", "the main thing you want when you get orders is peace of mind", "contact your sponsor and let him or her know about your special needs and arrival date", "your local acs can also provide you with useful information", "review your acs orientation package", "turn to your local acs center", "learn all you can about italy or greece or turkey if you're headed for either of those ctef commands", "begin studying the appropriate language", "and plan ahead", "when you prepare yourself for your pcs in southern europe you will help assure that your arrival here will be the beginning of one of the most positive experiences of your life"], "name": ["PermanentCha_3/PermanentCha_3/PermanentCha_3_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "PermanentCha_3/PermanentCha_3/PermanentCha_3_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "PermanentCha_3/PermanentCha_3/PermanentCha_3_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "PermanentCha_3/PermanentCha_3/PermanentCha_3_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "PermanentCha_3/PermanentCha_3/PermanentCha_3_DOT_flac_00004.flac", 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4150, 1522, 833, 8355, 10070, 7870, 5070, 5800, 6240, 4240, 2830, 833, 1010, 833, 2974, 3190, 1527, 2233], "label": ["i'd like to have a roll call mr silvestri", "mr ball present", "mr lewis here", "mr berquist will not be here mr arcuri here", "mr stiegel here", "mr atkinson here", "mrs merrell present", "will everyone please rise and join us for the pledge of allegiance", "i pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands one nation under god indivisible with liberty and justice for all", "first item on the agenda is the approval of the minutes of the reorganization meeting of january 7th two thousand and thirteen", "there was one change i think or one correction", "it was in the section 8b", "mr ball's proposed resolution regarding peter's requesting a change in our assigned senatorial district", "first paragraph third line from the bottom", "mr ball i think the second word township should be county in the end of the sentence", "so on page eleven of the minutes i'm sorry neglected to say that", "do you agree mr ball that's fine", "okay is that a motion i move that the minutes be approved with that one correction", "is there a second reluctantly yes", "okay is there any further discussion you all in favor of the approval of the minutes and the motion that was made say aye", "aye", "opposed say nay", "passes six zero", "mr silvestri special reports do we have any no", "okay the next item is audience comments", "this is the time for any member of the audience who so desires can get up here and discuss a nonagenda item for at least for no more than five minutes", "is there anybody there you go come on up", "name and address and you're on your way", "hi my name is eric roullard and i live on buffalo ridge road", "do you need the address or", "no that's fine", "okay and i'm here to talk about the redistricting and why it should be important for peters township", "if you've noticed we're", "the way it's designed and the way the senate district is drawn other people have talked about it", "essentially we're the odd man out", "most of the county voting in this district is allegheny county", "they get", "they don't get most of the attention i think they get all the attention", "how many times have i wanted to do something or escalate something and it's very hard to get anything done and i'm not municipal or anything", "i'm just an ordinary guy trying to do some political organizing", "i'm sure democrats have the same problem where they wanna get something done and then they have to sometime appeal to a higher up and they can't get anything done", "so i think if we were with the rest of washington county we could get a county commissioner to help us", "we can get another municipality to help us", "we could team up and get something more effective", "when we have to team up with allegheny county they figure if we don't get anything maybe they get more that's", "it's one of those games that needs to be played and we have to figure out where we want to be and who we want to be to team up with to get things done", "and i believe we would get that done better if we were all included in washington county and i believe that's the district senate district forty six", "so i think that would be a good move for us", "okay thank you", "thank you", "is there anyone else from the audience who would like to talk about a nonagenda item ma'am", "good evening", "this is my first visit so i'm kind of nervous", "so i'm just gonna read off my paper if you don't mind", "would you please state your name and where you live certainly", "my name is angela carrier and i live on east highland drive", "okay thank you and don't be nervous", "i'm very nervous my knees are shaking", "turn that microphone down so you can speak can you hear me now that's good that's good", "i've lived in peters township since one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine and my comment is also in regards to peters township potentially moving from senate district thirty seven to senate district forty six", "i believe peters township has an affinity for washington county and not allegheny", "over the last fourteen years i've watched an amazing amount of development of so many areas in washington county", "i feel that peters township no longer goes north for all of its shopping", "for example this christmas not once did i go to south hills village to buy gifts", "this year i shopped in washington at kohl's tanger outlets toys r us and several other stores in the north strabane and the trinity point area for everything i needed", "my point is that i feel that there has been a clear dividing line between bethel park and peters township and the rest of what is considered south hills area", "especially in regards to shopping and personal family needs", "with so much growth in peters township and canonsburg i think the two are more blended", "excuse me blended more now than ever before", "i don't feel any affinity at all with either bethel park or mount lebanon for that matter", "when the people i network with for business ask me where i live i tell them peters township in washington county", "thank you", "thank you", "any further audience comment seeing none we'll move onto unfinished business", "the first section thereof is the youth commission", "there's five potential openings on the youth commission board to count nine", "currently there are four councils interviewed i believe nine of ten people and there's still one left to interview", "i didn't know if you want to act on any of them tonight", "oh i know personally since there were so many candidates i think i would appreciate a little bit more time to think about that and to review some of the documentation that they supplied", "i know it's in the docket but i personally think i need a little bit more time but i don't know how everybody else feels", "mr silvestri when the gentlemen who applied but wasn't able to come tonight do we know when he might be available this week i think he could be available before the next meeting the beginning of the next meeting", "do you think that i know he's out of town i'm not sure if he's out of town all week", "i would like to", "first of all i would like to interview the other person and then i would", "i think most members of council would find it helpful if we had a summary of the resumes that were presented to us", "so we can go back and refresh our minds", "this is probably the biggest field that we've had for any group that we appoint", "and the fact that we've had so many truly qualified people makes the choice very hard", "there's nobody that wouldn't be good", "we just need to find what we think are the best of them", "please if you do some sort of summary keep them in the order that we interviewed them", "and some of these people go back december 3rd so it's been a while mm", "i'll move that we table any motions until we interview the final candidate", "is there a second second", "all in favor of the motion say aye", "aye", "opposed say nay sixzero", "the next appointments we need to address are the zoning hearing board", "yes we're trying to", "there's a couple i mean council had questions about attendance and we spoke with mr federline the chairman and he sent a history of attendance", "they have not had many meetings in the last couple of years where there was at least three board members", "so they did have to appoint a hearing officer", "we did contact ms noble she's currently an alternate and is willing to be a full member", "mr zephro has asked if someone replaces him he would like to resign cause his work schedule made it difficult through this upcoming year to attend meetings", "mr ferran and mr dickson would both like to attend", "we do need to change some of the term dates so that it conforms with the ordinance", "we never did get it all straightened out we went from three to five members", "yeah", "after i read your dissertation i was not sure we had it straightened out yet michael", "no i think we would i don't think so", "if we have it the way i propose it as far as terms", "yeah i read what mr silvestri recommended and i would make an alternate recommendation", "i think that ms noble who has agreed to come on board as a regular member should be appointed for the position that expires in two thousand and seventeen", "i would make a motion for that", "do you wanna do them all separately mr chairman i don't have a preference", "why not make it the one that expires in two thousand and eighteen is there some reason why well i was going to recommend that we advertise for a new appointee who would start this year and have his five his or her five year term end in two thousand and eighteen", "uh", "did you make a motion i'd like to make a motion that we reclassify stacy noble to a regular member with the term to expire two thousand and seventeen", "i second it", "we have a second", "we have a motion and two seconds", "is there any further discussion to the point of order i think you probably would accept the resignation of mr zephro first so that at least then there's already a vacancy on the board", "okay so we wanna make that motion i move that we accept mr zephro's resignation as soon as we find an alternate regular member and ask that he serve until that time", "i'll second it", "we have a motion in the i'm not too sure that's what mr silvestri was asking", "i thought you wanted to accept his resignation", "and i'll defer to mr johnson but i mean right now i guess we", "we need to determine what the status of mr farron and mr dickson is before anybody can be appointed", "well let me then start from the beginning", "i move that we appoint mr dickson to a term as an alternate through the year two thousand and fourteen with the term expiring two thousand and fourteen", "mr dickson would be coming off of the committee as the regular member", "why don't i tell you the whole deal yeah do the whole deal well i'm you know i'm real confused now", "mr dickson i would suggest become an alternate based on his attendance and his term would expire two thousand and fourteen", "mr farron would stay as a regular member with a term that expired two thousand and fourteen", "i would suggest that we asked mr federline if we could revise his term to end two thousand and fifteen", "we have mr stasic as two thousand and sixteen already and that would stay the same", "and then stacy nobel would become a regular member with a term that ended two thousand and seventeen and we would search for another fulltime regular member to replace mr zephoro when he can", "once we find a replacement then he would resign", "are you on board mr silvestri i don't", "i'm not sure i know whether that works or not", "so mr", "as i assess mr zephro wants off correct", "okay and how many people do we have on there now forget about the alternates just regular people", "five", "five so if we take him off we'll still have enough to conduct business right correct", "all right so why don't we just accept his resignation with regrets well the question was about the reason this all came up and we didn't reappoint last meeting was about the attendance", "well i mean i don't", "i understand that but i mean if mr zephro wants to resign then i think we should let him resign", "that would be the first order of business", "all right and then we'll have a slot to fill and let's fill it with ms noble and then go from there", "unless that doesn't sound logical", "i don't know", "works for me well i'm gonna make a motion that we already have a motion on the floor and a second", "we have two motions on the floor though", "can we ask the", "right well let's move to withdraw the previous motions and start over i withdraw my motions and defer to the chairman to make a motion", "okay i'm gonna make a motion that we accept mr zephro's resignation with regrets", "second", "okay is there any further discussion okay all in favor say aye", "aye aye", "aye", "all opposed say nay", "okay that passes six zero", "okay now i'm gonna make the motion that we appoint ms noble to is", "to the zoning hearing board and not no longer be an alternate", "she's an alternate now correct okay and she would fill out i guess mr zephro's term through two thousand and fifteen january two thousand and fifteen", "okay does that sound right second", "okay is there any", "so we have a motion and a second do we have any further discussion we just still not really addressing the concern that mr silvestri had with the proper staggering terms that followed", "well if you do", "okay okay i see what you mean okay", "if you do like now if you appoint ms noble to two thousand and fifteen it still gives you the option of correcting the rest of them", "yeah but i know it's just not two thousand and fifteen in your staggering language no", "that's true", "that's true correct", "do we have a", "we have a fourteen", "well jethro's a fifteen jethro's a fifteen", "we have to replace him should be two thousand and fifteen", "okay that works", "that works yeah", "okay so we have a motion and a second", "are there any further discussions all in favor say aye", "aye", "all opposed say nay", "so that passes six zero", "now if anybody wants to make a motion with respect to the", "dickson or farron or i guess who else is left there", "i'd suggest we just leave those the way they are for the time being", "well until we figure out i guess somebody is up though in january right actually technically right now both mr farron and mr dickson's terms are up", "so they would need to", "you have two dates now that are available the 7th", "the one that would enter in january two thousand and seventeen and then january two thousand and eighteen", "but do we know whether they wanna stay on or farron does yeah", "then i would move that we reappoint mr farron to the", "second we have farron and dickson", "mmhmm", "mr farron to the term expiring two thousand and eighteen", "mr dickson to the term expiring two thousand and seventeen", "so that gives us fourteen fifteen sixteen seventeen eighteen", "well wait a minute", "what about thirteen this is thirteen this is thirteen january thirteen", "we're on fifteen okay expiring", "so we have a motion is there a second would you repeat your motion mr ball it's a very", "yeah well", "i move that we appoint mr farron to the term expiring in two thousand and eighteen", "mr dickson to the term expiring in two thousand and seventeen", "so we have a motion do we have a second second", "okay is there any further discussion all in favor of the motion then say aye", "aye", "and all opposed say nay", "nay", "okay so that's five one", "so is that now filled or", "but we're still short one aren't we you filled the full members but there's an opportunity for alternate", "right okay but we don't know who may be interested in that", "we're advertising", "okay so we should advertise and then we'll try to fill those but okay", "we should congratulate ourselves on the most complicated appointment yet i know", "next is the parks and recreation board", "we were waiting for the school district to come back with a decision on mrs schwarhaus and the board did table action", "i spoke with mr valdic his secretary and they seem to be i think somewhat confused as to what their role was and the terms", "the one thing they were asking was if there is", "but currently the way it's structured is there's one school board recommendations in one year and two in another", "and the reason that happened was when council expanded the size of the board they gave the district two additional recommendations", "so they both came in that year", "they'd like to see if it's one each year so they could have windup to vote on every year", "and then they were", "they weren't sure the interaction with the board", "so i think there's a lot of confusion going on because there's", "there was so much change in personnel", "i'm not sure what they're asking", "what they would be looking to do", "so right now the school board has not made a recommendation on that position", "yeah", "okay so we have to wait to hear from them before we can approve their appointment", "correct", "and then there's some issue about they wanna stagger them now instead of one and two they want one oneonone", "right", "okay well i guess the ball's in their court then", "correct", "okay", "and then council tabled action on mrs chevelles appointment and asked us to advertise", "and we have a couple of candidates", "okay", "we wanna interview", "well when i was the one who made that motion because i wanted to try to see if we could have some variety as far as diversity and representation right now", "though most of the people on the board have some association with sports associations", "and i was hoping aside from mrs schwarhaus who now is sort of in limbo also was hoping that we would get some people who would represent some of the other residential users of the recreational facilities", "end of the park and rec the park and rec's board", "i just wanted", "my name's melissa sigman", "i'm on the parks and rec board", "i live on fireside drive and i just wanted to make a correction to that statement", "i don't have any children that are in youth sports", "i haven't for six years", "and my kids played in lots of different sports", "i had varying levels of just standing on the sideline being a parent", "so i think your representation that ms schwarhaus is the only person who has no affiliation to the youth sports associations is incorrect", "in fact i think a couple of other members no longer are on boards of the sports associations in which their children participate", "and joe mays is also not on a youth sports board of any kind", "why i appreciate you correcting that for me thank you melissa thank you", "so how many applications for the park and rec board do we have besides ms chevelles two", "two", "so why don't we just interview those two people and then go from there this is that their school board interview", "wow", "in fact these are school board appointments right no", "i think this is one is council one is our school board", "so we have potentially three people that you would consider for our one appointment", "and you don't know where the school district's going which is another evil", "i shouldn't have said that", "what would probably be another topic for a meeting mr lewis", "yeah if that is one half", "i can't answer to that i know some of the people did", "okay so we're tabling i guess any action on the school board", "right you're gonna have to", "and on ours until we can appoint till we can interview personnel candidates", "i just wanted to make it clear that there's a little note in here that ms chevelles is uncertain as to why she was not appointed", "it wasn't anything at least in my mind that it was personal or something that she did or didn't do", "i just think that over the last year or so we've had discussions directly and indirectly in respect to various issues that have come before us about the park and certain programs that should be there", "and certain activities that maybe aren't traditional sporting type situations that we wanted to try to address", "and i just think that happenstances is that that issue got raised in regards to this appointment", "and i don't know about the other members but i could speak for myself that i would have no problem whatsoever reappointing her", "but i think that given those discussions and the fact that this issue was raised that it'd probably be a good idea to at least interview a couple of candidates", "and we may end up just back at square one anyway but and that would be fine but i don't want her to take it the wrong way", "it's nothing personal about her something she did or did not do", "well i think at least in my mind i think it's nice to have a list of people in our back pocket in case somebody does need to step down", "so we have a list of people that we know we're interested in filling in all those roles", "right i personally didn't think attempt attack on mrs chevelles at all", "moreso just seeing what's out there", "okay all right moving on", "i guess we're into new business that's the consent agenda", "the purpose of the consent agenda is to improve the efficiency of our meetings and to avoid having people wait for items that apparently require little or no discussion", "these will be acted with one motion", "any item can be taken off this agenda and acted separately if any council member or audience member desires", "the items on the consent agenda are one exonerate paul lauer and the georgia tax service two thousand and twelve leaned real estate tax", "all unpaid taxes have been leaned with the washington county tax claim bureau as required by state law", "two approval of resolution ten thousand two hundred and thirteen approving the destruction of obsolete records in accordance with the pennsylvania records retention act", "and three approval of resolution ten thousand four hundred and thirteen amending the police pension plan to eliminate the killed in service provision", "confirming action taken in two thousand and ten as the state now provides for this benefit", "if anyone", "does anyone here wish to remove an item if so we'll handle that item at the end of new business", "if not then i will entertain a motion to approve the consent agenda", "i'll make a motion to improve the consent agenda", "second", "okay", "my only comment would be as the resolution you announced for number two", "yeah", "mr silvestri's that should be on three yeah", "yeah", "well it should be a ten thousand three hundred and thirteen", "well that's not what it says on this piece of paper but that's okay", "we'll deal with that amendment", "i will make the motion to make that correction", "i take it there's a i meant to second", "second okay is there any further discussion okay all in favor of the consent agenda say aye", "aye", "opposed say nay", "passes six zero mr silvestri", "next item is park and recreation board update report and we have a suit coming up to it", "good evening my name is joe mays", "i live at two hundred and fifty one teepee road and i'm a member of the parks and recreation board", "i'd like to thank council for the opportunity to present our quarterly report for october november and december", "what i've found i've been on a lot of different boards with the school district and also with wpl", "but i've found that this recreation board that has been together for quite a few years almost every one of us have been there for more than one term has worked very well together", "and we have a lot of confidence in our recreation director michele harmel", "in fact we sent a letter to the council indicating our support and what a great job she does", "not only her but becky and the rest of the staff", "so we're very very supportive of that", "we also realize what our role is as board members and just providing input and realizing that she's in charge of the program", "we've been very busy this entire year two thousand and twelve", "and during the month of october the tennis heart true court renovation project was completed and the bubble was installed once again for our township residents interested in tennis to be able to use that during the winter months", "we also met with one of the associations and we're very pleased at the wrestling association with a new president has really done an outstanding job of things that michele needed to continue their program", "the board also discussed and approved a new flag policy a flagpole policy for the parks and recreation department", "and we had a booster group of racketeers proposed to buy umbrellas and provide shade for spectators on the hillside at the tennis bubble", "in november we also had another proposal from", "to plant trees at the tennis center to serve as a wind barrier", "and there were some adjustments that were suggested by our maintenance supervisor and the project was approved", "we're pleased that the fitness trail equipment's arrived and they are working on that during the winter months in the spring", "and then it looks like that's gonna be able to be used during the later in the spring for our residents", "and one of the issues we did have to deal with that i think came to you also was the use of spikes on field five", "and again we addressed that issue", "we've listened to all the groups that were concerned", "we made a recommendation to council to prohibit the use of those spikes on field five with that artificial turf", "we also had discussions about having another sports associated board dinner and that has been established as the date of tuesday february 19th", "in december again they continued to work on the fitness trail and also the football association made a proposal to build an additional storage up at hofbauer field and the parks and recreation board approved that building as presented", "one of the other things we spent a lot of time on last year which i think is a critical component of the recreational programs is this volunteer coaches and how they can get their criminal history checks and their child abuse clearances", "michele has done an outstanding job throughout the year of getting that into place", "and i think it's made it easier for our volunteers", "and more importantly it has i believe is helping to protect the kids involved in our programs", "the other thing that happened this past fall was field five the opening of that complex", "and again if you've been up there it's quite impressive to see the number of kids and families that are there in the evening", "also our board i think would like to compliment michele and the athletic director at the school district as they continue to improve of the sharing of facilities", "i think that helps not only the school district's activities but also the community activities", "being able to share those facilities", "last year i kind of took you on a bicycle trip and i'd like to try to mention that again", "one of the things that i do in the fall and also in the spring in the summer is ride arrowhead trail", "and i think that's the jewel of the township", "gives us an opportunity if you ever go through that area you see all age groups doing all types of healthy activities", "but now with the new section of the park being opened up i ask all of you to maybe as a group or even individuals ride a bike take a walk up through there", "cause in the spring time if you come up the trail you see the softball kids in the spring the summer", "you see them in the fall and then all of a sudden you make that turn you come up to the field five and there are hundreds of kids all ages with parents and grandparents watching practices and games", "then you make a right and you go past hofbauer field", "in the fall you see the football and the cheerleaders", "in the spring you see the lacrosse then you go past the other field by the", "let me see the restrooms and then i think field three four we call it", "and now you see the usage of baseball softball using that", "in the fall you see again the football players", "if you make around a turn right above the rec center you look down to the baseball fields and you see those fields being used", "and then the field next to the rec center also you also see that field being used by softball baseball", "but every time i go past there on a bicycle or if i'm walking i have a feeling of pride that i have a small part as being a member of the rec board", "but i also wanna compliment you cause many of you have been here for many many years and with your foresight and mr silvestri's leadership you have provided outstanding facilities and programs for the community members", "and i just think it's gonna continue to get", "it's gonna get better but again without your leadership these things wouldn't happen for the residents or our community", "thanks very much for giving me the opportunity to say that", "thank you thank you", "thank you", "i guess the next item on the under new business is a request by the junior football association to construct a building at hofbauer field", "this is this as mr may said this was approved by the park and recreation board", "and now before council to determine if there's any issues with it", "if council's found it acceptable we would enter into our standard facility improvement agreement", "can you reiterate what the standard facility agreement involves for well basically association in the township", "it sets the terms that the facility once constructed is owned by the township", "provides for requirements for insurances and that the association is authorized to do the work", "i don't have it with me right now but it's something we worked up with mr johnson we used when we did the original building there", "as well as other recreation association for other projects but the key is that once the building is constructed it's owned by the township and we would be responsible for it", "i might've missed it michael what is it proposed cost to this thing anyone saying the cost is just under twenty five thousand that's being proposed", "we assessed the numbers that we received from the football association", "there are representatives from the football association here at what's our standard agreement side that they have to take care of it or what no it becomes the township's property", "i mean they're using it but it's", "we would be responsible for the building once it's constructed and then it's our", "it's a council facility", "and we're gonna have somebody look at those plans and make sure that they're structurally the plans were already reviewed by the building inspectors and are in a position for a permit to be issued if council approves it", "did our township engineer look at it no he wouldn't look at that", "why not reviewing those plans and i mean that's a building inspector issue", "and i don't look at any house plans or anything like that", "okay", "what did the original one cost i don't know the and outs", "i don't know if someone from the football can answer that or actually yeah i'm from football and i have no idea what the original cost was", "it was built before i looked into that", "i have two questions about it", "the design shows an existing deck and is that connecting the two buildings or are you", "can you walk underneath that is that what the proposal is yes there will be space underneath that", "okay so the safety requirements for there's already a walk on like the existing building if i move over here the existing building is here", "the deck is above there's a garage door here", "so that's already and it's all like a slab underneath", "so it's already being walked under currently", "in the minutes of the park and rec committee or board meeting there apparently were some objections", "what were the objections to the construction of this i wasn't at that parks and rec meeting", "it was apparently by a parent", "yes i'm aware of an objection but we voted as an organization fourteen to two to pass that", "so there were two people that were opposed", "okay", "it says in the minutes from the prior thing we just discussed that there was a parent from the football association to express his concern", "he felt the money could be better", "to better serve the children in other ways", "is that a thing yeah", "yeah yeah so his proposal was to put that money towards turfing the field which twenty five thousand is a long way from", "so pretty much a million dollars of turf almost", "okay", "that was pretty much it", "where you going to show i got", "i have a question do the structures that we built that they built that we're ultimately responsible for", "did they have to be handicapped accessible or something like that cause i mean that it looks like there's just steps going in there and i mean i don't wanna get in a situation where we do this and then somebody complains that they can't get up there cause they're handicapped", "we did address that and because of the square footage it is not required no", "we did address that with the building inspector when i met with him", "okay", "what are the dimensions of this these buildings you've got an elevation there there's no plans here and i'll get off that cake but there's just not a lot of information here that's my point", "it's ten foot by", "twenty five", "by twenty well twenty four yeah", "two hundred and forty square feet", "yes", "thousand dollars a square foot", "yes think about it", "think about it", "it's a two story building", "pardon", "it's two stories", "so it was proposed for storage one thousand a square foot", "correct it's for additional storage", "we are", "currently we are tapped out of storage", "we lost some space whenever the lights went in there because there's some gates that have that area blocked off currently", "and we used to store some stuff on a route eighty eight storage and we gave that up", "it was just impractical from community members like myself and stuff", "to get all the way from there to carry pads and equipment down there to store when we can just keep them right there", "and the president of the football association indicated at our meeting that he is currently storing a good deal of equipment and supplies in his office at home", "and he says he's not always going to have that available so", "look i'm not opposed to it and i don't wanna be an obstructionist but i just think this is a ridiculously high price", "and i don't know what you've done in the way of checking for alternate bids but that's a lot of money for that structure", "that's the whole point i was trying to make a lot of money", "have you got any other bids and i'm not suggesting i'm not telling you how to spend your money either but i just think it's your maybe taking an easy way out here and ought to be looking at something else", "it's actually one hundred a square foot", "it's not one thousand said one thousand", "no it's one hundred he's saying", "one hundred", "how many square feet two hundred and forty", "yeah but it's two floors", "two floors", "whatever that is", "all right okay", "all right", "that's all right", "i feel better", "that's your one mistake in here that puts you it's all about being", "it's all about feeling good", "any other questions for us anybody have any questions anybody wanna make a motion well this is being done without the expenditure of township funds it's like not clear okay correct i don't know that it would have been that everybody who was listening", "no i'm not opposed to it", "what do you need mike a motion to concur with us i'm glad i did", "i move that we concur with the project subject to the execution of the standard facility agreement", "is there a second also can we have a motion and a second is there any further discussion all in favor of the motion say aye aye aye", "aye", "opposed say nay", "passes six zero mr silvestri", "let's see you're in the hot seat in the next one", "the next one is a special permit request by saint benedict", "they have a church for multiple signs for their multiweek fish fry", "i'm not sure that i had made a couple of phone calls into the person requesting it", "and i'm not sure if he's around or not but he", "i don't see him here this evening", "i don't know if you want to table this until he has an opportunity to be here i think if we were to table it i think we need to discourage the concept of all these multiple signs and suggest that he come back with at least a more reasonable proposition", "where does he want them to be cause it's did he tell us yeah it's in his letter or in the attachment i guess", "there's ten locations", "i remember last year didn't we have a", "there was one up there near center church and we had to tell them to move", "we have this same discussion every year", "well nah this is the first time st bens has came in and asked for them", "oh there you go", "excuse me", "we always have the same discussion this time it's just beforehand", "yeah well i would agree with mr lewis point", "i think that there's definitely signage they could use but the idea of putting a lot of signs on it in public areas is kind of not", "not the point", "and if we begin to make too big of a gesture to allowing this i'm not sure it wouldn't encourage other people to do the same", "will he be able to come back to the next yeah the fish fry doesn't start until the 16th i believe", "i'm sure they're at the entrance signs on nineteen", "that would be a real bad deal", "yeah some of these aren't really objectionable at least in my mind", "right there", "i mean he certainly could ask for the bridge and the valley brook bridge", "all right", "not at times perhaps", "no i really don't have a problem with what they've done with their resistant church sign", "i mean it's there", "if they wanna put a banner in front of it i mean right", "i mean it's for a good cause", "why don't we just table it and then maybe they can come in and provide a little bit more maybe they can narrow these locations down to something that's a little bit more palatable to the board the council", "you wanna motion to table i'll make a motion to table if that's what you're after", "second", "we have a motion and a second", "all in favor say aye", "aye aye", "aye", "opposed say nay", "okay passes six zero", "next one is final plan of anthony farms plan of lodge parcel plan for peter's townshipland company", "on drawing by jr gale and associate revised", "the date revised on january 3rd two thousand and thirteen", "yeah i was gonna say which one are you i'm gonna explain this briefly", "pt land company developers of the anthony farms plan along with the stanley b anthony estate or finalists anthony farms parcel plan", "it's simply parceling off and splitting parcel three hundred that was created when phase one was recorded", "it's splitting this parcel three hundred into two pieces", "this piece here parcel three hundred and eight will be purchased by pt land company from the anthony estate and it will be consumed by phase two lots and public improvements", "the plan in addition to parceling off parcel three hundred it establishes all the necessary easements and rights of way to facilitate phase two from being constructed", "it's simply a plan that parcels off the property that pt land company is purchasing from the anthony estate", "planning commission did review this at the january ten meeting and approved recommended council approve it subject to five conditions all of which have been addressed", "so this is basically a financial agreement because they're buying it in pieces", "correct", "okay so it has to be subdivided so they can buy the next piece", "correct", "i move that we approve the request for division of the anthony farms parcel 300a saa that i have a question on that parcel three hundred b that's for anticipated it's for the next phase", "correct", "if that didn't develop that lot that would not be landlocked or anything like that right no it would not no it doesn't", "i think it has frontage on two public streets", "all right so we have a motion and a second is there any further discussion all in favor of the motion say aye", "aye", "all opposed say nay", "it passes six zero", "i'd like to ask the chair to consider changing the agenda here to deal with the offpremise sign", "there's a number of people in the audience that are here to deal with it that i think we'll accommodate them", "i have no problem doing that", "i think we should get through this f though which is the final point if we want to no we ought to get to first part i think i have no problem jumping around to do that but i'm sorry i thought we already concluded the next item is the final plan of the anthony farms plan of lots phase two", "peters township land company on drawings gale and associates revised the one in seventeen two thousand and thirteen", "this is a re approval of this plan", "council did approve this plan back in april two thousand and twelve", "the plan did not get recorded within the ninety days for reasons maybe pt land company can explain", "it's simply reapproving the plan that was approved back in april it's twenty lots", "all the lots are halfacre plus", "all eighteen of the twenty lots use a fifty foot building line", "council did approve two lots with a forty foot building lots", "lots two hundred and nineteen and two hundred and twenty i think are the ones with the forty foot yes", "they're off in the corner i remember them", "all the other aspects of the plan dedication of open space what will occur in phase two", "there's two stormwater management facilities that will be dedicated to peter's township", "all the runoff from phase two gets directed to those two facilities", "there'll be a traffic impact fee paid for each one of these lots one thousand one hundred per lot at the time of building permit approval", "planning commission did recommend the plan be approved back in march of two thousand and twelve subject to eighteen conditions", "some of which had been completed some of which have not been completed", "i move we reapprove the plan", "is there a second i'll second it", "is there any further discussion i'd just like a clarification", "there was a question on whether or not the developer was going to attempt to solicit from penndot the ability for a left turn in", "oh yes kim gale's from jr gales and associates", "yes we did and we were denied", "okay so that's completely off the table", "it's off the table it's right in and right out", "one other question and i'm gonna keep asking this about the open space in different developments", "the open space has there been a discussion about what that's going to be or is that basically the scrub area with really no useful purpose i guess right now currently the only open space is back in here long phase one", "mmhmm is any of it usable the open it's walkable", "walkable it's walkable", "the open space in this plan provides a buffer between existing neighborhoods and the new neighborhood", "it's not just scrub", "it provides a necessary buffer", "okay", "is there any other comment or question she had the one question i did about the", "does this does the plan provide right in right out yes", "okay then that's what we're approving", "yes", "okay so we have a motion and second is there any further discussion seeing none all in favor of the motion say aye", "aye aye", "all opposed say nay", "passes six zero", "thank you very much", "okay", "i think unless my other council members have any different opinion i believe that mr lewis his suggestion that we jumped onto item seven under correspondence to address the attorney haynes is the arlecchino arlecchino off premise sign", "if we could that might save some time", "mr haynes how are you sir i'm fine sir and you good", "mr chairman i've addressed a letter to you back in april the beginning of may", "a discussion was had with council about a sign which was asked to be placed on property by arlecchino's", "up until the time that that sign was placed there had been signs for the school house and arlecchino had simply put the sign on themselves", "up until that time there was a rental situation with it", "there has been no agreement to any sort of rent", "the council decided at that point to allow them to put a temporary sign up", "and that was intended to be for a period of approximately six months", "the six months have long passed they would have passed in november or december", "and we have given notice to council as well as notice to the attorney for arlecchino's that we intend to remove the sign at this point", "immediately following the construction of the sign on may 3rd of two thousand and twelve i did address a letter to them requesting that they enter into negotiations as to the placement of the sign", "they have had an additional seven or eight months in order to speak or enter into negotiations and nothing has been done", "this is simply a situation where they apparently feel that they can take the space and use the space", "to go backwards this property has been owned", "this property next to it has been owned for a period of at least sixty years by mr harbison and his predecessor mr niedemeyer", "they have used this and in fact council peter's township has addressed them and asked them to maintain that property on occasion which they have done", "they have cleared it they have constructed on it and have completely treated it as their own", "at this point we have simply come to council to advise that we are not going to allow the sign to remain there at this point without some sort of compensation for the sign or a direct order from council telling us that we have to", "does your client own that property or as you're claiming it's by adverse at this point it appears we're claiming it by adverse possession", "i remember when it was here before", "it was unclear as to who like", "it was like", "the last record owner is a person by the name of robert roche", "mr roche owned a large piece of property there which was split off", "he also owned three or four properties on the other side of the road the other side of 19th", "and it appears that this piece was a leftover piece after several subdivisions", "it is a small piece that sits right in the jointure of the road and does not appear that it has ever been deeded out", "i have done extensive search to the point of i have pulled all the tax books clear back into the 1880s for washington county to see if this piece has ever been actually possessed by anybody other than robert roche", "and i cannot find anything", "his name appears on four different surveys of the property but it appears just to have been repeated each time okay by the surveyor and just added to it", "it's not being assessed is it being assessed i don't think that it's being assessed", "what i actually thought at some point was that the township may have taken this but we have checked", "and it's not because of the fact that that is a major intersection and that the township probably at some point used it for the construction either of nineteen or old nineteen as it were", "but a check with roads for the council shows no that they don't have a claim to it of any sort either", "so we have maintained this property at least sixty years and we intend to act like we are the owner of the property which mr arcuri and mr johnson of course will tell you is necessary for our adverse claim", "mr haynes looking at your letter of january 2nd it makes reference to the fact of ownership either by actual deed or by possession", "but your position now is it's by adverse possession", "correct i've not been able to find anything that actually deeds it", "as i said at one point mr roche owned this property he owned clear over to here and then reality after doing the review of the surveys mr harbison actually owns over into here", "so there's no record owner of that property there is no record owner of this property", "has not been since at least one thousand nine hundred and twenty", "and tacking your client's possession and control of the property along with their predecessors it's more than sixty years it's in excess of sixty years", "there has been nobody use a claim or pay taxes on the property for a period of at least the sixty years", "mr haynes yes", "you say that they harbison's use and maintain the property what do they use it for well they have used it on occasion for storage vehicles but they are the ones that have been required to keep it cut okay the council's it seems pretty steep that's why i was asking", "i couldn't see how it would no it is steep in here", "in the actual portion of the property that is harbison's it's very steep right here", "mmhmm", "but this is harbison's property", "right i understand that", "okay they've come across and again this is a much flatter area okay and they have maintained they have kept that cut down for sixty years", "mr harbison doesn't use that for his own signage does he i don't remember ever seeing anything", "no", "hello mr harbison", "mike harbison our signage is right behind our building on nineteen", "actually if i may", "right there", "you can actually see the shadow over it", "mmhmm that's it right there", "furthermore in terms of the question as to arlecchino and raising an objection or putting a sign there is absolutely no way that they have any claim to this", "under an adverse possession question the question would be who else might have a better claim than us who else might have done something to maintain the property they of course are clear off in this area", "and there's absolutely no way that their rights come down to there", "they do not have any type of a chain of title right to the property", "i understand my recollection from the discussion was that the classroom the sign for the classroom which was the prior restaurant had been there for years", "but that was under a lease", "i'm not they were paying a lease to mr harbison which actually acknowledges his possession", "does that document does that document exist i am assuming it does as a lease", "my dad does have a signed agreement", "yes i don't have that with me right now", "so when the property was transferred that just was omitted from any conversation is that what happened that the new owners of the restaurant didn't realize the", "i mean the arrangement", "i don't know", "i can't possibly tell you what went on between arlecchino and the school house i think we're about yeah okay", "i was just gonna ask you if you heard from mr cayman but i guess you've heard from somebody else", "well i am actually here on mr cayman instead he unfortunately had a prior obligation this evening so was not able to attend", "my name is ryan woods so i'm an attorney with the law firm goldberg cayman and garvin and then to address a lot of the issues that had just been raised by mr harbison's counsel", "we believe and we're in the position that they have zero rights title interest at all in the property in the area in where our sign is located", "and furthermore we believe that we would have rights to this property for its continued usage over the past i believe it's almost thirty years or so that this sign has existed there", "and i do have a couple of documents that i'd like to pass out or if council would prefer that i just utilize", "pass them out", "yeah all right", "it's always better to look at them", "that was my thought as well", "if you don't mind passing this down thank you very much", "it might be good to have one for don and it might be good to have one for me too", "there you go", "at this desk we're sitting next to one i think there was there's more this is the first i've heard probably in the five months", "the first picture that i have included and i can wait till those get down", "does everyone have a copy yeah", "this is just a picture of this is a picture exactly right that was just placed up there for", "depicting exactly what we're looking at here", "as shown this is camp lane road this is mr arbison's property", "and his sign's actually located up in this northern", "is actually outside of this triangle located in this area that's across the street and it's located there", "the second picture that i've included this goes back in their chain of title of mr harbison", "and this was a survey that was prepared for the property that was in january 27th in one thousand nine hundred and sixty four", "if you look at the way this property is this was also just recently confirmed by mr harbison's counsel where it comes to the lower portion that is actually on the other side of route nineteen there which he had just shown on the prior overhead", "but if you look at this picture in conjunction with the first actual overhead aerial view you can see that where the property comes over the line is actually brushing a brush line runs well to the north", "that would actually be the east looking at the", "the north designation here where the sign the signage is located at", "and if you look here run actually comes through the property that we're located on well outside of that too", "it's well outside of the survey area of the property that is actually now currently owned by mr harbison", "the next document i included in here as well is the actual deed which it was in april of one thousand nine hundred and ninety four which was which now gave title to mr harbison included in here and explained is the actual property that's included within that survey itself", "it does not include any of this land", "so none of this was actually traded provided to him which would be required by a deed in order to have adverse possession", "you actually have to convey that property under belief that it is yours", "that is not included within this deed itself", "so therefore there was", "there's no excuse me", "i doubt", "let him have his say mr haynes", "and i would also just like to go onto the last document that we have there twelve", "this was actually prepared for harbison audit", "this was dated february 25th one thousand nine hundred and ninety four", "and then it was revised on may 5th of one thousand nine hundred and ninety four", "and again this is the exact same survey that was included in the nineteen the one thousand nine hundred and sixty four surveys exactly the same", "again depicting the same property and once again more importantly excluding the property that he's now claiming he may have by adverse possession", "again this is his own admission", "in one thousand nine hundred and ninety four providing that this is not his property", "and furthermore that the property that's located within that survey itself is what he actually owns", "we believe in furthermore in regards to the discussion of adverse possession this is not the proper format forum to determine whether or not they may or may not own this by adverse possession", "this would actually have to be something that would be adjudicated and determined by a court of law", "he cannot this cannot be adjudicated by council itself to determine whether or not he has this by adverse possession whether he's met all of the key elements for tacking and furthermore the necessary requirements", "so i don't believe that he actually has standing to raise the issue whether or not we have the sign here or not", "may i interrupt for a second yeah", "well no just", "just to", "go ahead michael", "refresh your memory", "when this came to council last year a lot of these arguments were being made and there was at least they seemed like it was the potential of an agreement or an understanding that would be made", "and what council did by setting six months time period to allow the sign that there was either for some conclusive some conclusion by some group either themselves or the court to determine who owned the property or for some agreement to occur", "our position is or our responsibility is when someone wants to put a directional sign on a corner property they have to have permission from the owner", "as the staff we could not confirm yes or no who owned the property", "so the whole idea was for council whether council had was to allow some time for it to get worked out or to be determined definitively and in the interim the sign will be kept", "and that's where we were i remember and i also remember if i'm not mistaken that in the past the permission from that sign was from harbison for the harbison or niedermeyer one of the two yeah", "one of the two right that's true", "but i mean i know mr haynes was all jumping up and down and i understand what you're saying and i agree with you", "you don't need a deed for adverse possession", "and quite frankly i mean this survey shows what he actually asked but it doesn't show what he took what he may or may not have taken by adverse possession", "did you file a statement of claim no", "okay are you going to absolutely", "okay the bottom line is as i see this and i might be wrong but we don't really have a stake in this", "that's right but mr silvestri it's what we call the background", "we don't intend council loaded we don't have the authority to adjudicate the title of this property", "mr arcuri's also right we're not the", "the title of this property is not necessarily limited to the survey", "if it was clear in the survey we wouldn't have this we wouldn't be in there at all with respect to adverse possession claims", "but this the sign from it was awarded temporarily because we didn't well i made the motion and i did it was to maintain the status quo until we could get more information", "i mean it doesn't look like we were gonna get any more information", "and i think properly so because it was as a dispute that we assumed was gonna be resolved between the property owners which apparently hasn't occurred at this point", "i mean i think you guys just do what you wanna do", "i mean it seems to me that if you think that you own the property and you're gonna take the sign down that's gonna force this into court and you guys can", "if you can't come to an amicable resolution of it then some judge will come with an amicable decision", "i mean i since you've taken up time i just wanted another question as far as the discussion", "has there been a discussion of paying a lease is there a problem with the number is there a problem with the concept i had not been involved in any any of those prior discussions", "it would have been jonathan cayman from my office that would have had those discussions", "i'm not sure where that is maybe he can shed it seems like something that should be able to be amiably collated", "again on may the 3rd i addressed to them a letter saying let's resolve this matter", "we feel that we own it your previous person paid three hundred per month in order to be here time has passed", "it should be three hundred and fifty which of course that's called negotiation", "three hundred and fifty per month per month too yeah signed there", "okay", "i know it's called negotiation but that", "that seems like a lot for a little sign again i agree but the prior sign which was more extensive okay well i understand that and that was taken down", "that was taken down that was three hundred and we were up the assumption to be honest that if something was worked out maybe a more permanent sign was going to go up", "oh okay", "okay understanding that they probably also did not want to invest a whole bunch of money in a sign when there was a possibility that they were going to lose or we were going to cut it down", "but at this point i have received absolutely no response to negotiations not so much as a phone call at all from mr cayman", "well it seems to me that the economics of the issue ought to be", "it would have to be resolved in yeah i mean that's", "you're gonna spend a lot more money", "which you're already doing on attorneys", "well i dunno", "well that's a good thing it's always a good thing for the attorneys but i mean there's gotta be some give and take here", "and i mean there's another street that accesses that restaurant right up the block", "i mean they can maybe get a sign off of that property owner", "so you gotta worry three hundred and fifty a month as opposed to zero a month and i well right now we're getting zero a month so", "well and i understand that", "i mean the equity's just i really think i mean council tried to facilitate a resolution some time ago by saying fine put the sign up for six months", "that hasn't worked apparently", "i think at this point we're pretty much out of it", "i mean it's between you between the two parties and to me do what you need to do and hopefully it gets resolved", "i absolutely agree", "i really sent the letter as a courtesy", "okay since you had been nice enough to mediate at least a little bit the last time", "but the discussion sir was that we recognize in this instance and in many other instances around the township the need of a business to advertise their business", "and we recognize that that particular business is not exactly right on nineteen", "so having some directional sign would be advantageous and try to facilitate it and that's really about all that we can do", "i mean i don't see anything else that council can do", "i mean at this point i think we need to hand it back to you and say please resolve it between yourselves or some court will resolve it", "absolutely as i said and i sent the letter because it was actually a thank you to the council for having tried before", "and i thought it was a courtesy that i should advise that this is where it was proceeding", "i think you guys thank you", "you guys can work it out i'm sure", "thank you", "all right we're gonna go back to under new business item g award bids for liability and casualty insurance coverage", "okay we went out and solicited proposals for insurance bids and marie murphy a risk consultants risk resources was our consultant to handle this project and she is here", "i would point out that marie has said our current carrier is not renewing our coverage", "so we are in a position that we must have a new carrier at the beginning of the month", "marie you wanna go through the proposal yes hi my name's marie murphy", "i work for risk management resources and usually insurance is one of the more difficult things we do i think but maybe tonight that's not so", "so we'll try to make this short and sweet", "is that a comment on the meeting pardon me is that a comment on the meeting yes", "usually i'm like in the beginning of the meeting but anyway we'll try to make it simple tonight", "what we did i was hired and retained by peters township to manage the insurance renewal proposal for peters township", "we do this on a routine basis usually every three years to see what the market will bear what's happening in the insurance market", "and to get competitive proposals", "this year was different because your current carrier declined to renew your insurance coverage", "that created a problem because you've belonged to the same carrier i think since two thousand and seven", "they provided us with very good coverage at a very good price as you can see from these renewal premiums we're gonna go over here shortly", "and so it did present a bit of a problem at renewal", "so if we can go first cause i know that we wanna discuss the dollar thing first to show you what we found when we went out into the market", "and i think that this proposal that you see on the insurance renewal premium proposals as proposed january two thousand and thirteen gallagher was your expiring carrier", "that's the one that is no longer gonna be providing a quote", "we put an ad in the paper anybody that was interested responded i did a set of specifications based on last year's policy because i had been working with those that policy structure since two thousand and seven and it was a good policy structure", "and we got competitive proposals against that", "what we found when we did this was first of all nobody would provide us what we had at the price we had it period", "that was just not gonna happen", "as you can see from the proposals we did get they're sort of within the realm of each other", "okay as compared to our expiring premium over here at one hundred and thirty eight thousand", "so that was the first thing we learned immediately was what we had was gone and we weren't gonna find that again", "so anyway we went through and we requested the premiums for everything", "and if we also wanted to look at deductibles too because in a lot of these proposals what you retain yourself went up in a lot of instances", "one of the major covered differences that the old program had that we don't have this year is your law enforcement liability was covered under your general liability insurance", "therefore you didn't have any deductible", "now you're going gonna have a deductible", "okay so i studied this every way i could", "i studied it from increased deductibles premiums deductible options", "and then of course the coverages because we hadn't had those core coverages and sort of start there", "so if you would just go briefly to the risk management resources actually marketing report these are all the agents that we had approached or that actually approached us via a request through the newspaper", "and these are all the responses we got", "now you can see by looking at this we did get a nice spread of people that were interested and they were all approaching quite a variety of insurance companies but we did get a lot of declinations", "so once we got that done we did come up with several proposals that were viable", "they all have different premiums", "so at that point what my concern was to make sure that we had the best price matched excuse me with the best coverage", "if you go to the premium page again you'll see that the lowest proposal was from the campbell agency with great american insurance company and cna", "there's another part to that that i failed to put on there", "and their premium came in at one hundred and eighty five thousand eight hundred and sixty four", "okay which is a substantial increase over your expiring but it was the lowest of all the proposals okay yeah why is that dollar amount different than you took", "you said one hundred and eighty", "one hundred and eighty five that is one hundred and eighty five but the one where oh yeah that's another revision", "did you give them the new revision revision oh okay i'm sorry", "all right i didn't know you had the newest revision", "i was gonna hand that out in a minute", "okay so you have the one hundred and seventy seven that's correct is that what you have up there yeah", "okay yes okay", "so that's the one hundred and eighty five", "okay so you have one hundred and eighty seven in your hand", "no one hundred and seventy seven one hundred and seventy seven", "one hundred and seventy seven i'm sorry", "yes that's the most latest revision that i got practically on my way here", "what we've been trying to do is ever since these proposals came in once we had the bids and we knew who the low proposals were and who we could work with we've been trying to work our way through this to make sure we had all the coverages we needed", "that was really the key to this this time", "i can't forego the coverage for the price", "let's just we can't do that", "so as i said we had a lot of declinations", "we did get a lot of people interested", "there were several issues", "now if you go back to the original insurance the major coverage comparisons i'm sorry", "that's a separate chart", "what i did was i honed in on the major coverage points okay once i had the premiums established the next thing to do is okay to make sure that okay this is a cheap price but does it have what we need so you'll see from this sheet they don't have that sheet", "they don't have this sheet oh okay", "basically what we did was i went through and i actually did a comparison of all the coverages and i came up with major coverage points", "after i did that i ended up with a few concerns and that's what i wanna just discuss with you momentarily", "as far as the premium goes the great american program does give you what you need at a reasonable price", "there are some things that we don't have anymore and one of those things we don't have anymore is coverage", "part of the coverage for the engineer", "okay in the old program it covered mark for", "i know you hate to even say it outloud it covered mark for bodily injury and property damage claims", "okay as well as public officials claims which basically is a wrongful act", "the same thing that covers everybody here on the board", "okay that policy you'll still cover mark", "okay so we do have partial coverage for him right now", "what that means is and i'm sure mr johnson can back me up on this", "coverage triggers what determines what policy responds to what claim", "okay so if someone sues peters township and mark for a wrongful act okay that will be covered by the public officials policy because that's what public officials covers", "but if the result of the wrongful act was bodily injury or property damage that's picked up under a different policy on the general liability side and that's where we lost the coverage", "because the prior carrier was so broad with their coverage form nobody included it just was like they threw it in", "i was sorta surprised when they did", "so when we got to this renewal i was", "i was surprised that everybody told me it was covered but they didn't understand the difference between the errors and omissions professional exposure he gives us versus a regular bipd which might be too much detail but the bottom line is we need to fill that gap", "mike and i have talked about the most", "what's the exposure that we worry about most with mark from a bodily injury and property damage standpoint we sort of came to the conclusion it would probably be if there was a storm drain that was designed improperly and if you wanna add something to this", "and it caused somebody's home to be completely flooded that would be a property damage claim okay assuming he designed it right", "yes and that was part of what you do correct the", "well yeah we don't design a heck of a lot of new storm storage systems", "it can occur and you've noticed that we're doing retrofits of old stuff", "so then and once again because it's vague", "okay because he could maybe he wouldn't we have to nail that down because we can't have him exposed", "or if we do have the exposure we need to know it and absorb it okay so what happened was like i said if he sued for wrongful acts specifically okay and it doesn't mention bodily injury or property damage we have coverage", "but if we get that strange claim where they do ask for bodily injury or property damage that's where we have this little gap", "so i went in search of coverage for that gap", "practically like i said on my way here i finally got a number which kind of floored me to be honest with you", "i didn't think it was gonna be that high", "it came in at ten thousand four hundred and seventy five okay and it has a twenty five thousand deductible which if you look at that you have to hit thirty five thousand period before it even pays for itself", "so this part of the coverage we can move ahead with this insurance program and i'm gonna continue to work with mike on this open issue because i was thinking on my way here actually that do you belong to an association of any kind okay they may be able to provide him with an insurance quote that would be more reasonable", "this one came out of lloyd's of london", "okay and lloyd's isn't cheap but it was the only quote that i was able to get too", "so but i think that it also had to do with people telling me it was covering it wasn't until i read the coverage forms i realized that gap was there", "okay so that was sort of why that got delayed a little bit but it can be solved", "i think we can solve it", "like i said we do have some coverage for mark", "it's just the bipd portion that i'm concerned about and i think we should pursue this and see if we can get a better premium and a quote", "because the other side of the coin is is if council if you give it some serious thought and we get mark's input what would be the risk compared to the thirty five thousand a year you're gonna spend on insurance is it really worth it how many of these projects does he do a year how often does he do it how much are we really exposing ourselves to this bipd risk so i think that needs to be discussed further because i think that maybe it's not as big of a risk or maybe it's a bigger risk than i realize", "i don't know that", "it sounds like a lot of what", "mark and i discussed what he does which is why i didn't really think that it was gonna cost that much money", "not that you don't do important things but he's not doing a lot of design and that's usually what costs all the money", "so that kind of threw everything for a loop", "so i will say that we can move ahead with the rest of this but i think we need to continue to pursue that okay the second point i just wanted to bring up was the auto exposure", "one of the reasons why everybody everybody declined your quote was because of the auto problem", "that was part of the problem", "you have a frequency issue and we did get a couple of standalone quotes but we were able to negotiate apples to apples quotes and the great american program now contains everything we need", "okay on the auto portion too", "and that's something mike's working on right now he's signing people up for driver training courses", "unfortunately here in peters township and i can say cause i hate driving out here at night especially in the rain", "you've had like seventeen years strikes since two thousand and seven and that's just what can you do look it's very rural out here", "it's dark you know so it's not really something you can control exactly", "the other point i wanted to bring up was deductibles", "i think one of the reasons why our losses look so bad here at peters is because we submit things in the five hundred range in the one thousand range okay right now our auto deductibles are five hundred comp five hundred collision", "so every time you hit a deer you pay the five hundred and then the insurance company pays the rest", "well i think we've totaled one or two vehicles already", "so when you look at that the insurance companies are eventually gonna catch up with that and say whoa", "so i'm making the recommendation we definitely get those deductibles up so that at least as we move forward this frequency thing isn't showing up all the time on your loss runs okay and i think we should do the same thing on property", "we can carry one thousand deductible right now", "i think we should bump that up to five thousand", "we haven't had very many property claims", "the ones we've had have been lightning strikes at the radio tower and i believe we've had a couple snow and ice things", "okay so one big one was the sprinkler oh the sprinkler system that's right", "i forgot about that one", "so that part of it i think that the peters township has the ability to absorb that five thousand per claim", "and i think that based on your loss history that's not where your problems have really been", "it's been on the auto side", "so i think you should give that consideration cause there's other savings to be had by taking the higher deductible", "and since you're looking at this transition year where you're going to an almost what forty six thousand increase it's probably a good time to take that deductible savings", "the dam exposure was another issue", "that's always been a stick in the program", "we've always been lucky enough to get it covered", "this year what happened though was there's only one program that's offering us the catastrophic coverage on the dam", "and what i mean by that is you have the first one million three million on your primary insurance", "then there's something called an umbrella that goes over that that provides another five million", "in previous years you had the entire eight million for the dam exposure", "you had it on the primary and you had it on the umbrella", "no one but travelers is offering that at this point and the travelers program is quite a bit more expensive", "so when you look at the risk we've discussed this at length also", "you do maintain the dam very very well", "there's an ability to lower the water if we know there's gonna be an issue with flooding", "we can open the valves and get that water pressure down", "we had hurricane ivan and it handled hurricane ivan", "so that was what a", "was that one hundred or five hundred year i forget five hundred", "five hundred year flood", "so i'm not really totally overly concerned about this excess exposure on the dam", "i think that the one million three million is probably sufficient", "i just don't see the dam creating much of a problem that we won't know about before it becomes a catastrophic failure because of the way that it's maintained", "okay and because of what happened in ivan", "i think if it was gonna have a failure that's probably when it was gonna happen so", "so based on all that information i'm making a recommendation that you increase the deductibles to five thousand take one thousand deductible on your auto take all the reductions that they're offering you", "let me continue to pursue this gap in the eno and i would recommend the campbell agency with great american and cna", "in the body of your recommendation you say something about the auto being with a different carrier", "yes it is with great american and it's with cna is the auto", "it's a different carrier and erie also offered a standalone quote", "okay they were the same standalone quote", "so we went with what campbell originally gave us", "the terrorism coverage we've not taken that in the past no and i have an explanation for terrorism", "the one thing i would like to say about it is in my business the act goes on forever", "okay so to make it a short explanation the thing that you need to know is before you can collect any money because we had discussed this", "like what if somebody came into the township and even if it was a domestic terrorist act and did whatever they did it has to be declared an act of terrorism by the secretary of state the secretary of the treasury and the attorney general before it's considered an act of terrorism", "so i don't", "unless it involved the city of pittsburgh and peter's township i don't ever see that happening", "it would have to be some horribly catastrophic thing before i think those bodies would consider it a terrorist act under the act", "so the only clients i have that normally purchase that are water and sewer authorities because they're high risk targets and they only purchase it on the property normally", "so most of my municipal clients do not purchase it", "so we've not had it in the past", "right we've declined it in the past", "does anybody have any other questions this situation that you're talking about using the umbrella coverage", "mmhmm", "why is it that the issue that we have with mark isn't something that falls under that umbrella well mark is covered under the umbrella it's a different coverage", "in other words the public officials coverage is the primary part of the coverage that he's covered under", "and it's also picked up under the umbrella", "so it's just a different coverage", "he is picked up and he's also picked up for bodily injury and as is anybody that works for the township has bodily injury and property damage", "he just doesn't have it as it relates to his engineering duties", "he has it for everything else", "can you think of an occasion that you have had this issue a seal to a drawing or a design that you have done it's typically in conjunction with permits", "if i apply the vp for a certain crossing permit or a stream bank", "yeah i think sometimes i have to stand for permit they're on ms4 i had to stand the tmd on plannings", "it's very rare that it would be for a project that we designed in house", "now that doesn't mean that i can still design it and oversee it but to me that would be an avenue that would preclude the ability to pursue a claim against him as a design professional", "well it's a", "what it's called is an error or omission", "oh ma'am i know well though what you're talking about okay so that's my business", "yeah okay so what i'm saying is the eno portion of the claim under the general liabilities is what i'm worried about", "he does have the wrongful act coverage up here and he has it on the primary and the umbrella", "it's the missing piece", "it's not worth ten thousand bucks", "well that's what i'm saying", "we need to go further with that because i don't know that there's really much risk there", "and then when you add the premium into the deductible you're looking at thirty five thousand before the insurance responds and really what is our risk here he's not worth that", "but i think it's something that i said that tongue in cheek", "i mean i think it's something we should pursue a little further just to see like i said maybe the association has something cause you know how association programs have special rates for their members", "and we might be able to do something that way", "i agree with you i think that premium's atrocious and i don't", "i don't see the risk that he presents that it deserves that kind of premium", "that was nowhere near what i thought it was gonna cost because normally it's the design portion that is the risk", "and he does very little if any design and there's always someone else involved too right there's always gonna be a subcontractor and a contractor", "and a lot of other parties that will all get sued with us so we can all be in there together and it'll work itself out eventually", "but we wouldn't be the only person standing there", "you're trying to make that sound like a pleasant ordeal", "well i think the more people involved the better let's put it that way", "it gives more money or more money available to spread around but", "can i ask you a question from the audience mmhmm", "i'm scott bramrose", "oh hi scott how are you nice to meet you nice to meet you too", "sorry i just wanted to ask when you were reading my form and the liability about the professional coverage for engineers and surveyors", "mmhmm", "does it not cover his", "i think it covered his well i think let me see on my coverage comparisons because i think it said it was covered but it's your premium that made it costly", "oh yeah i know my premium is high yeah but let me see if we have i just wanted to say that that coverage was available under oh yeah let me see i'm sorry yeah", "that's the point you're trying to make", "yes his program with britt did include that exposure", "it wasn't that it wasn't available", "that it was the program costs that made it cost prohibited", "well he's a good guy but he's just too expensive", "yeah so and this was who again this was sloan agency through the britt insurance group", "their premium was at one hundred and ninety one thousand seven hundred and forty two", "michael does your position and recommendation stand as you put it out in your", "to go with so campbell agency", "campbell yes", "one last clarification though", "mmhmm", "mr lewis i don't mean to interrupt", "all right", "so across the columns the one that has is not included is beside the skate park", "is that an omission or is that", "i mean is that what does that mean i'm sorry oh it's included", "i'm sorry you mean there should be a word included yes yes it is included", "i'm sorry that was", "that should be included", "all right cause that's cause that's a big deal too", "i mean that's a potential it is it is a big deal", "believe me the skate park so that is included that's in everybody and it's sorry to interrupt you", "you have dams skate parks you have all sorts of things", "so it makes it a difficult risk", "is there any other questions i have a question", "mmhmm", "the issue came up last year when we were involved in some litigation involving an individual who had sued the township federal court under an one thousand nine hundred and eighty three action", "and council was vehemently opposed to paying a nickel", "i know what you're talking about", "towards that claim", "i know", "and because of the coverage that we had we really didn't have i guess it's a hammer clause or whatever my", "i practice insurance so i keep the", "so if i say don't settle on a no practice case then the insurance carrier can't do that", "right", "and when i inquired about that from mr silvestri he indicated to me that our policy does not provide for us to say we're not paying a nickel and you have to defend it", "and if we wanted that that it would be more expensive", "i'm not i don't know that it's available okay any professional person a doctor a lawyer because it is a professional person the insurance company extends the obligate or the courtesy i would say of allowing you to refuse to settle", "and that would be obvious because if you're a doctor your reputation could get ruined", "and if you really feel it's an opinion thing and it wasn't a medical fact then you can go ahead and refuse it", "the only thing i've ever seen in an insurance policy that gave you any kind of control over that was a waiver of governmental immunity clause", "where if you had immunity and you wanted to waive it okay because of some reason i have a water authority for example that had a bad pipe and they knew it", "and every time it would flood it flooded the same house but the insurance policy would not allow them to pay it", "they would go to their governmental immunity clause and say we're immune from this liability and we're not paying it well i found a policy or we found a policy that did allow that waiver", "i've seen it go that way i've never seen it go the other way because there's a right and duty to defend", "but when you look at the policy conditions all through the policy conditions it talks about your obligations as an insured versus an insurer", "and you're obligated to do what they say", "the only time i know that that's different like i said is in a professional situation", "i've never seen a policy that", "and mr lewis i don't know if you have either but i've never seen a policy that would allow you to pay or to say don't pay", "because believe me there are a lot of people feel this way because the claims sometimes are ridiculous", "you have two i can think of which i won't speak of right now that are absolutely ridiculous", "and all your costs have been in defending the thing", "you haven't paid a penny but you've been", "there's a big reserves sitting there for defensive of an idiotic claim but there's nothing you can do", "and what'll happen is it'll come to a point for the insurance company where they're gonna say look it's cheaper for us to pay this than to keep fighting this", "and that's their privilege to do that so", "but i appreciate your opinion", "okay and don't get the impression i know anything at all about insurance", "oh but i do know about professional liability and engineers so", "okay good", "well maybe you can help us with mark i would move that we award the campbell insurance company", "i don't know whether it's exactly if it's one hundred and seventy seven one hundred and fifty nine or if someone else would be less than that", "maybe if we continue and go through we can negotiate the terms and conditions", "well yeah this'll be the number that we'll be using and then that's one hundred and seventy seven", "yes the one hundred and seventy the one that's not up there the one hundred and seventy seven", "okay so we have a motion and a second is there any further discussion hearing none all in favor of the motion say aye", "aye", "opposed say nay", "that's a six zero mr silvestri", "next item on the thank you", "thank you for your time", "thank you", "the next item is petition received for barrhill road traffic calming study", "yes there was a petition with sufficient names to meet the minimum criteria to have us investigate to determine if it would qualify for a study", "we would look at it from the standpoint of the amount of the speeds and the amount of traffic", "and then if it does qualify then it would go to the traffic calming committee to review", "in addition we do have two outstanding ones", "one that we will be doing additional traffic counts in the spring which is senate church cause that wasn't able to after the stop light was in", "and then the last one was which has been here for awhile has been", "maple lane", "maple lane and when we did the original studies one portion of maple lane qualified from a speed standpoint past going past george and the other part before george did not", "when we went out there and took additional accounts to see if it still did it actually flip flopped", "the section before george now is over the speed and the section after george is under the speed", "and i guess what i'd like to do at least is get a proposal from tpd to see what that would cost to do a study there and then come back to council", "that's what we've done in the past", "yeah", "i see no reason to alter that unless somebody has one", "is that okay have a vote", "i think you're okay", "do we need a motion well just to authorize us to do the study", "all right so the counts", "so you have a motion mr ball seconded it", "any further discussion all in favor of the motion say aye", "aye aye", "any opposed say nay", "passes six zero", "our next item is resolution establishing that drop a trust for drop pensions", "yes the police pension plan", "we really submitted a trust agreement to bank and it basically included everything that's in this agreement in this resolution", "they took the position that for what was involved they didn't want to get into enter into such an agreement", "then we went back to the pnc", "to see if pnc was willing to do such and at this point we still don't have a response", "they were looking at it but we're", "we need to get these things established", "so the other option was for us to adopt the resolution establishing the trust", "and then we just opened up the standard trust agreement trust accounts with the bank under the resolution here", "as opposed to having an agreement with the bank for a trust", "i move that we adopt resolution ten thousand five hundred and thirteen", "second", "so we have a motion and a second any further discussion all in favor of the motion say aye", "aye", "aye", "opposed say nay", "six zero mr silvestri", "payroll bills", "i've reviewed the payroll and bills that large file of them", "there's a lot", "yeah there's a bunch of them this time", "find them in order and move that we pay them", "second", "okay a motion to second", "any further discussion hearing none all in favor of the motion say aye", "aye", "and opposed say nay", "six zero mr silvestri", "could i ask a clarifying question sure", "well mr ball will you be doing that all the time or were you just subbing for mr berkowitz no mr berkowitz was absent", "thank you", "i'm sure if you wanted to do it mr berkowitz would let you", "there's a filling", "yeah it's just part of the duties of the vice chair that's why i wondered", "i came off the bench out of retirement", "next section since we did correspondence would be reports", "given the late hour is there anything in there mr silvestri that you feel strongly that we need to discuss no", "okay is there anybody else on council that would like to discuss anything that appears under the report section no there wasn't anything anybody okie doke let's move to item number nine which is miscellaneous", "it's road tour date", "yeah road tour date", "that's coming up we're recommending march 2nd i think was it the 2nd that's yeah march 2nd", "that's what i heard", "i can't do the 9th i have a cub scouts field the trip on the 9th sir", "what i always think you're really bring the cub scouts on a field trip", "it'll be snowing last year we did it on the 3rd", "all our neighboring communities did their road program before us and i hate to be i hope it snows and we can't see a thing", "we did better last year", "well it's also weather permitting", "i mean if it's snowing we would cancel", "if the roads are covered we would cancel i mean", "well it sounds like a", "that's a good day i guess it's fine", "i'll shoot for the 2nd and then let's shoot for the 2nd if it doesn't work out we'll just reschedule okie doke", "the other part of it is the", "the valley view drive cul de sac", "and i was gonna have mark", "mark there are some drawings in your docket", "one of the things we've been talking about is we have a number of streets that are long dead ends", "mmhmm without any adequate turn arounds valley view long view hammonds", "elm", "elm", "what's the one off the thompsonfield we went up there when we were yeah algrove", "is that algrove yeah and we discussed this in house and we thought that the best approach would be to try to do them incrementally one at a time and since valley view is going to be paid this year we're recommending that we look at putting in a turnaround at 65th", "not that the current standard of eighty feet diameter but sixty feet diameter which will be adequate enough for a garbage truck to turn public works vehicles and any emergency vehicles", "this would necessitate getting additional property outside of the right of way to do this", "and we would have to contact the property owners and it could very well get if we couldn't work it out where it may get to the point of eminent domain", "where we'd like to get permission to start the process so we can be in a position to include that in the paving project", "this be for elm that you're doing that it'd be easier for the turn", "well i got one property owner seem amenable but i'm not sure about the other one yet", "we haven't had contact with weren't there three of them then nah actually two", "it's actually two", "we can lay it out so that we only affect two property owners so", "okay", "now have actually had what just seeing the property owners and task and probably mention the idea", "but we'd like to get council's authorization on it", "i think you should go no i think you still need to do that", "mark did i get did i get out of this information that you can do the hammer head without impinging on anybody we could that would be plan b", "yeah yeah if the property owners well that's a fallback though", "it's a fallback it's less effective we could do it but the only problem it doesn't accommodate garbage trucks", "and that's really the big issue of valley view right now is the garbage trucks either have to back down and pull out or pull in and back up the street", "it's just not safe", "so we'd like to", "and the sixty foot is not our standard cul de sac but it's the same diameter", "we just did it on this part of the anthony farms deal and that's working well for the garbage companies", "so we'd like to propose that it's the minimum amount that we can get a garbage truck to that's gonna come down in numbers", "yeah so you were saying i'm surprised a garbage truck can't handle the hammer head though it's not big enough huh well it's got a forty foot runway so if we go to plan b and try not affect those property owners we're still confined to that forty feet it's not a fifty foot right away", "so i just don't think they're gonna be able to make that turn", "could you", "do you know how many homes are on that how many other people are affected by living on that road and having to potentially be", "see the garbage truck going up and down backwards or", "well if you say thirteen one thousand three hundred feet", "right so there's probably about twenty yeah twenty five twenty six lots of so we couldn't ask them to bring their garbage up to the main intersection so", "no you should see how steep it is", "yeah i mean i know i'm being facetious", "i'm being facetious", "yeah", "yeah see that just sounds it's about twenty four if i understand", "mmhmm what is it too small for", "and one at the end", "so yeah actually i think it's about twenty eight", "yeah", "twenty five twenty", "all right anything else under miscellaneous that i know we're in some police cars", "yeah one other item that i wanted to bring up one of the things that we've failed to include in our budget process and but we think we need to do it is the postretirement benefit actuarial study", "one of the things we're required to include in our financial reports as well as just for purposes of budgeting is the the actuarial value of our post retirement benefits", "we've actually been budgeting money annually towards this which a lot of municipalities haven't", "but we do need to get an appraisal or an actuarial study done about every two years", "is it two years or three years we do them it's three years", "three years and we're recommending that we", "we be authorized to enter into an agreement with mockenhoff associates who did the last two", "they were the best price the last time we looked at this to have this done", "it's about five thousand i think isn't it just under it", "just under it", "right", "we need a motion", "yes", "we are authorized to do the evaluation", "is there a second i'll second it", "okay we have a motion and a second", "any further discussion hearing none all in favor of the motion say aye", "aye", "opposed say nay", "passes six zero", "the last item i would raise is the seeing if there's a possibility of getting a meeting with panndot next week either on the 4th 5th or 7th", "the 4th or 7th is best for me", "me too", "at one thousand six hundred o'clock in the afternoon", "yeah", "the 4th", "that's not real good for me", "or not good for me either", "are either of the other two better or is the 7th the time the 7th", "thursday thursday", "that might be better for me but that i mean you know", "as long as mr atkinson's here i'm happy cause i know it's more of a meeting to brief you on what's happening with the project the likelihood of it occurring as well as to update you on this whole situation with the various requests", "okay", "that'll be", "well schedule it and if i can come i'll be there", "you gotta be careful frank there may be decimal points involved and i would fail", "nah you'd do okay", "mr stiegel never did learn to do decimals i can tell you never did", "anyway i'll be there michael whenever", "you tell me when", "well then we're looking at the 4th is that what we're", "that's fine", "that's okay by me anybody else mr ball how about you or 4th is okay 5th is not good", "5th is not good either so", "march 4th", "mr stiegel would you be available or are you not sure it's pretty hard during the day to do anything", "yeah", "you can do it barry come on", "come on", "you tell me when it is and i'll see what i can do", "anything else that we need to talk about under miscellaneous just to point out there we did get the lsa grant", "what was that two hundred and fifty yeah", "what did we ask for we asked for five hundred a little over five hundred but we budgeted for two hundred and fifty", "we didn't tell them that but i think what happened was we had a project in montour trail had a project in and they decided okay five hundred we'll give half to you half to you", "because montour trail got them for like six hundred and something", "okay does anybody have anything for the next agenda", "i had", "oh please", "two things you had mentioned in one of the prior meetings about the new performance review system", "and i didn't know if you'd be prepared to talk about that then", "you mean at the next meeting mmhmm", "yeah sure", "and then i expected to have an executive session there was a follow up to a request by chief", "yeah i wasn't sure when we were gonna do that but yeah we need to do that yeah", "mr stiegel yeah so the draft fire study is that that's available can we get a copy of that yeah we were hoping to get it more refined but my understanding is i have no problem giving it to council", "it was supposed to be an internal review but we can make you copies of it", "please do", "i asked a couple of weeks ago about that", "yeah i know i know", "they have it a week from now", "if it isn't already", "mr sifron asked if i", "we'll get that electronically then i may have", "i don't know if i can or not i'll have to see cause the way it was sent i'm not sure i can do that electronically", "i may have to how long have they had it mike if we can how long have they had it mike i'm not sure", "we got it about a week ago a week and a half ago", "we've been bombarding the township with our flyers on the workshop that begins tomorrow on the comprehensive plan", "tomorrow evening seventy nine right here in the council chambers is session number one", "we hope to see you there i think we put some things on your desk", "we've been email blasting and the next one's all day at the library", "you can stop in there if you can and then the last one's right in here on thursday january thirty one", "when you say all day tell people that it's like two hours sessions", "january 30s in the library public library multipurpose room", "it's a workshop all day beginning nine hundred am", "there's a nine hundred am to one thousand one hundred am a one thousand two hundred to one thousand four hundred a one thousand five hundred to one thousand seven hundred and a one thousand nine hundred to two thousand one hundred session", "hope to see and those are all the sessions attendance at all is not required they can pick one", "pick one of those times correct", "okay", "that's where they do the chip game where they give you some instructions and some background and then they would", "they have two different options they can see how they want to see the township develop and then they can put down chips as to where they want to see things happen", "and that'll be then looked at by the consultant to come up with scenarios and will be discussed at the following meeting", "so tomorrow night as somewhat of an overview of what has already been completed", "that plus we're gonna talk about what other communities are facing and how they've resolved some issues", "we talk about traffic and we'll talk about the status quo gross scenario findings", "and then talk about what's gonna happen the following two days", "so what's thursday specifically just findings", "wrap up yeah", "results", "yeah", "the january thirty sessions", "we got an email today from and it said that yeah", "thank you okay", "is there anything else meeting's adjourned"], "name": ["Peters_Township_Council_-_January_28_2013/Peters_Township_Council_-_January_28_2013/Peters_Township_Council_-_January_28_2013_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "Peters_Township_Council_-_January_28_2013/Peters_Township_Council_-_January_28_2013/Peters_Township_Council_-_January_28_2013_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "Peters_Township_Council_-_January_28_2013/Peters_Township_Council_-_January_28_2013/Peters_Township_Council_-_January_28_2013_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "Peters_Township_Council_-_January_28_2013/Peters_Township_Council_-_January_28_2013/Peters_Township_Council_-_January_28_2013_DOT_flac_00003.flac", 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approved", "second", "moved for discussion if not all those in favor please say aye", "aye", "they who'd oppose would be nay", "that motion carries seven zero", "next is to revisit a transcript of a public hearing that was held september 19th two thousand and sixteen", "there were a number of proposed suggested comments and or edits", "what we did was to go back and pull the video that was shot by peters township community television checked the areas that were of concern to mr ball where they needed to be corrected they were corrected and those that were stated as they were were left", "this now reflects what happened at that meeting", "any other discussion very difficult to really", "i'll make a motion that we approve the transcript", "do anything other than accepting", "second", "motion's been made seconded all those in favor please say aye", "aye", "i'm going to abstain i wasn't in the meeting", "our next opportunity here is to congratulate two of our firefighters", "do we have someone that has a speech or am i gonna read mine by myself we've got chief mclaughlin we also have firefighter john and firefighter hopkin with us", "okay", "and we're gonna i'm going to need to elaborate", "and mr mclaughlin has some things he'd like to say but we're going to show you a video of exactly what this competition is", "well thank you for taking the time tonight to recognize us", "the fire department is generally a very humble organization", "we don't toot our own horn but when people toot it for us we thank you and appreciating us for that", "when people go above and beyond what we normally do we try to recognize those things", "chief bill and brittany have done that throughout the entire year in two thousand and sixteen", "they've taken the time to go to these competitions and compete and every they compete they wear our gear", "they represent township the fire department and all the residents of the township as well", "they wear peters township proud they're very appreciative of the opportunity that they got to do this in peters township", "it all started in april of two thousand and sixteen when they went to fdic to compete and both of them ran so well throughout their competitions in the year that they got invited to the world challenge where over as you see in your notes four hundred and fifty firefighters from twelve different countries and twenty united states came together to compete in this competition", "what is the competition i can only show you the video i can't explain it", "they've explained it to me a couple of times i've watched it in person i've tried to do it myself it's not easy", "they call it the fastest two minutes in sports", "is it a sport well we're competing for things", "it really gives you the idea of the basic firefighter's skills between dragging and lifting and hitting that we take advantage of all the time", "so mr lowell if you would please", "firefighter hoffman is on the righthand side here", "holy cow they're lifting a hose a roll of hose up the roller hose another forty pounds and everything is precise here too", "if they miss stairs on the way down there's penalties", "if they don't drop the hose in the box there's penalties", "everything is under timing because it's such a close time they have to be precise with their movements as well", "they have to touch every stair on the way down", "this next maneuver is called the kaiser's sled is to simulate forcible entry", "the weight of that sled is one hundred and thirty pounds of sled", "that piece of steel that she's hitting", "a mallet a rubber mallet", "finally the dummy drag at one hundred and eighty five pounds distance of one hundred and fifty feet", "one hundred and six feet", "guys thank you for your support in this", "we appreciate your recognition but honestly you're recognizing these two", "bill and brittany have done a phenomenal job not only at the fire station and what we do but also representing the township and the fire department in broad so thank you guys", "can you tell us what the awards are that you have and what they're for yeah we each ran it's kinda like the olympics in firefighting", "we're there for a week you're running every day and even though you were invited you qualify for the challenge", "you every day proceeding and to see whether or not you made the finals", "and we both made the finals in individual candidate and relays", "we were all pleased with our runs", "brittany ended up with a bronze medal in the female tandem running with a firefighter in canada she's from alberta", "and sometimes when you're with a smaller department like ours as opposed to big departments and they send ten or eleven people you're looking to build teams from other departments", "and we both ended up with relay with relay medals brittany ran that", "and when it's a relay race all those six stations are split up between four and five firefighters", "brittany ran in natal on the final and they ended up with gold medal probably one of the most fun races to watch cause it was a pretty tight finish but they won the gold and they just missed a world record by three tenths a second", "and it was ninety degrees out every day it was a tough weekend", "i along with a two buddies we started with three", "we ended up having to run them in the finals without only we started with four one guy got injured so one of us had to run an extra leg but we ended up just coming in second to new zealand in the men's master relay", "we ended up with the silver medal so we're pleased with that", "and we just met a lot of great firefighters there", "the woman that brittany ran into in the preliminary in the video you saw is the captain to the greensboro north carolina fire department", "she's also a world champion powerlifter", "i've seen her lift four hundred and fifty pounds and brittany beat her", "next year you'll be in kentucky right the finals world yes will be in kentucky", "the first race of the year will be at the fire department instructors conference in april", "we'll start then and pick three or four races throughout the year just to make sure we qualify all of us into getting by all right", "you were on duty last night i could hear your voice up old trails i guess", "that was an interesting evening", "somebody ran through the garage is that what i saw yeah a little accident with a neighbor losing control of the vehicle and crossing into the neighbor's property and through their garage", "thankfully no injuries", "i was expecting a young person to be in the midst of that but not necessarily", "well thank you very much and congratulations", "next element of this meeting is audience comments", "do we have anyone in the audience wishing to address a non agenda item we're losing all the two people in the audience they're both writing diligently", "i presume that means there's no audience comments", "i got carried busy scribing some of these reviews", "the next part is unfinished business which we can dispense with because there is none", "new business", "anthony farm's planned lots phase three", "now we know where mr zilkha is here", "this is a simple plan that's not creating new lots all it is doing is rerecording store basements on lots three hundred and four and three hundred and five and rerecording the sanitary sewer through the year to new easements that are centered over the asbuilt lines they discovered when they were doing construction easements were off so this plan simply corrects that", "planning commission did review it at the december 8th meeting and recommended council approval subject to no conditions", "and we approved the antony farm's plan to launch phase two my calendar says here it's november 4th two thousand and sixteen", "second", "all those in favor please say aye", "aye", "anyone opposed to be nay", "motion carries seven zero", "next is a ddock change order something we're not familiar with", "this because ryan was in charge of this project", "if you haven't had a chance to see the new stage structure this is it's current condition", "there's some paving that still needs to be done when the spring comes", "i think everyone will agree it's a dramatic improvement over the prior stage", "the construction on the project is done", "there were a couple of minor changes that were required during construction", "the net effect is that there's a change order deducting two hundred and fifty six off of the construction costs", "i'll make a motion that we approve change order number one", "second", "i have a question is this the change order that pertains to the rafters or something like that there's actually a couple of things there's a rafters we had some additional supply lines for the water extended to the outside because we're going to put an outdoor drinking fountain there", "and there was an addition of a utility sink and the plumbing to accommodate that", "what was the reason that you gone from the metal rafters to the wood it had to do with the ability to get the materials and given where they are located the architect didn't feel that it made any substantial difference in the structure in terms of its integrity", "what about longevity i'm not sure that it's going to make a difference given where this is located in the structure", "well are they treated wood i would imagine that they be treated", "it's pressurized wood", "they should hold up better in the outdoors", "any other comments if you have a question a second all those in favor please say aye", "aye", "anyone opposed would be nay", "that motion carries seven zero", "next item a little more of consequence i guess", "it is an ordinance levy on the tax on real property on peters township in the year two thousand and seventeen", "what is being proposed is to set the millage at one thousand five hundred and twenty two mils", "when the information was sent out to council mr ball correctly identified that we had a typographical error and we've corrected that and that ordinance is in front of you", "the intent of this millage rate is to put the township in a position not to realize a windfall but simply to be in a position to collect the same amount of property tax that we would have received had not there been a reassessment", "now as we have discussed at workshops in many regards this is a guess because what we don't know is the aggregate assessment for peters township is a moving target and appeals are coming in every day to court", "and so what the ultimate aggregate assessed value of peter's township will be will be something that will change", "but this is our best attempt to create a situation where the township is left whole after the reassessment", "it looks like a lot of the appeals at least the ones that we've seen initially have been no change", "and i'm assuming that at least some of those are being appealed to some place", "yes again not so much concern about the residential appeals but we do not have a clear understanding yet of how many commercial appeals will be taken to the county", "and i think that again individuals have thirty days from the time they receive a decision to make those appeals", "and we're still in a period of time where people are filing appeals to court", "mr lowell normally we equate a dollar value to a mil", "i think last year it was three hundred and fourteen thousand or something like that for one mil", "so does this calculation equate to that or is there another number that we were described to well it's relatively easy now because we're at a hundred percent of valuation so for every thousand dollars that your house is assessed it's one hundred and fifty two that you applied to that", "and what people are going to discover is what we predicted was people who live in older homes who were here in one thousand nine hundred and eighty one will find that their local tax burden and school district tax burden will go up", "and those people living in newer homes may well find that their taxes are going down", "but there's not a direct correlation to a number", "i didn't do that calculation", "i mean like i said it would be easy to do", "all you're you're doing is one hundred and fifty two cents about fifty times whatever this is", "the point i was trying to make is it's variable", "in the past we could make a statement that one mil equals x amount of dollars for the township and that is not the same anymore", "it would be a different amount", "yes you'd look at this in tenths of mils at this point", "right that's what i was trying to say", "people were normally used to hearing a certain number equals one mil but that's not the way we can work it out anymore", "further discussion", "i'll make a motion that we approve ordinance eight hundred and ten", "the mil one's submitted", "second", "any further discussion all those in favor please say aye", "aye", "anyone opposed please say nay", "that motion carries seven zero", "it follows is the school district tax rate the same as it has been this though do they reset that rate in whatever", "they will reset their rate in the late may or early june and what i will tell council's what i've been telling everybody who calls up because we've been getting a number of calls about what's the school district millage going to be", "i don't think they're in a position to know that yet we certainly aren't in a position to speculate on it", "when they get closer to the time when they need to set their millage just like the county provided us the aggregate assessment they will provide them as well", "the one advantage that they will have over us is that by that point in time some of the appeals will have been settled", "and the other thing is even for those ones that have not been settled do at least have some idea of what the scope of the appeals are so i think they're going to be in a little bit better position than us", "just a minute the question that everybody seems to be asking at least that i keep hearing is so okay i understand this is our township actioning tax but what's my total tax bill and i keep referring them to mr belzec of renton school district to make that decision", "all right do we move on the next would be an ordinance adopting the peters township two thousand and seventeen operating budget which for those that have not seen the documents there's a copy of available here in the township", "and then there's a copy here there's a copy on the website", "there's a copy in the library so it's available readily to the public", "one thing i would like to say is that the budget itself is the reflection of work from a lot of different groups and individuals", "certainly this year was a little bit more interesting from the staff side because we have a lot of new people involved in the process", "i really want to thank brian and tom because they stepped up and helped a whole lot to get this to where it was at", "and of course council's role in this whole process and the amount of time that you spent is really remarkable", "and one of the things that i'm very thankful for is one of the things i got from council was very clear direction which made the process of putting this together a little bit easier than it might've been otherwise and so i thank you for that", "although it does bear some bad right which is our expenditures exceed our revenue", "our expenditures exceed our revenue in part that's because we're going to be spending some of the funds that we borrowed this year and we'll hopefully be buying an ariel fire truck", "we're also doing some work on the park lands and some of that will be paid for with some of the borrowed funds", "but yes there is a gap between the amount of money we're spending and the amount of money we're taking in", "it's going to create a challenge for us in terms of monitoring the budget as the year goes on", "one of the discussions i'm gonna be having with department heads on wednesday is to get them to begin to think in terms of not only their department but the community as a whole and find a saving so that in fact by the end of the year that gap is somewhat closed", "i do believe as i've told council particularly since we've taken on additional debt service this year that in two thousand and eighteen we should anticipate in peters township that there will be a property tax increase", "i'll return for that we've picked up about fifty acres of new property that we hope to develop to everybody's benefit", "all right can we have question well there were some discussions we had before about our earned income tax revenues being flat or actually decreasing they were going to look into that", "i mean did you figure anything out yes i think we have a pretty good idea of what's happening there isn't a solution to this though", "i believe that it's largely tied to the oil and gas industry downturn in that industry", "i think that has directly impacted our earned income tax receipts as well as in speaking with keystone we're seeing this throughout washington county", "in addition to that we have some key earned income taxpayers the top ten payers and in the revenues from those individuals alone there's a decrease of about ninety five thousand in earned income tax receipts", "i think until the oil and gas industry turns the corner i think it's going to be a challenge and that's why earned income tax receipts for next year are budgeted to be flat from this year", "but on a positive note we have a few businesses that have come into the township potentially we'll gain some revenue from the people they employ and so that's a positive", "can i ask now for a motion you could have asked the question", "i move that we approve ordinance number eight hundred and eleven approving the two thousand and seventeen peters township operating budget", "second", "opportunity for more discussion", "all those in favor please say aye", "aye", "anyone opposed would be nay", "that motion carries seven zero", "we have one more ordinance to adopt the twenty million one hundred and seventy two thousand and twenty one capital improvement program", "i didn't bring that binder you were provided that earlier", "well actually in the back section of the budget there's a complete listing", "in addition to that in the manager's report i provided you a summary of the two thousand and seventeen projects that are being proposed", "it's an ambitious program for next year", "again we're going to be meeting amongst ourselves on wednesday morning to talk about how it is we're going to get this program implemented for next year", "and would the list of capital projects be in the handouts discussion we need another person to move motion", "i move that we approval the ordinance eight hundred and twelve adopting the peters township capital improvement program", "i'll second", "no further discussion all those in favor please say aye", "aye", "all opposed will be nay", "the motion carries seven zero", "payroll bills i've reviewed the invoices and the values that are posted", "i was somewhat surprised with the number of them in the short period of only one month one week", "i suggest we have a motion approved", "so moved", "all those in favor please say aye", "aye", "anyone opposed will be nay", "that motion carries seven zero", "correspondence there was none", "reports there are several", "anyone over the discussion items relative to various reports that were included in the document", "the one item that i did make note of in the report and it's really not part of the report itself but we have been notified by a representative of maher's office that we will be receiving a two hundred and fifty thousand grant to do improvements of the shelter and the playground in petersburg park", "and i will tell you this on many occasions the dced simply uses the representative's office as a way to pass that message along", "but in this particular case that grant as much as ms harmel did a wonderful job in putting that application together the receipt of that grant has a lot to do with representative maher's intercession on our behalf", "he arranged for the secretary for the department to come and visit us", "he's lobbied with them directly", "he's done a yearman's job in terms of representing the community and as a result of that you have this grant", "maybe you can extend an invitation to him to come in and present the check to us in person and thank him for all of his help", "okay we can do that", "on to further miscellaneous", "i have a few things", "please", "in your docket there is a record of attendance for boards", "i'm giving you this now but you're going to see this again on january 2nd but highlighted other people who are up for reappointment and you can make a judgment as to whether or not their service is adequate to be reappointed", "one of the things that we did learn is that the zoning hearing board would like to have a second alternate so we need to fill that position", "we still have positions to fill in the environmental quality board", "and so my question to you is i have tentatively on schedule to do interviews on the 9th of january", "is that something that council wants to do it fills the whole month i believe", "well there's a question with regard to the other item there that that possible workshop", "but i mean do we want to do the interviews on the ninth so we can get the boards all up i think that's appropriate", "okay", "the other thing we are out still searching for candidates for the peters township sanitary authority", "i had cause to speak to mr silvestri", "he was asking about the township and i was explaining to him the deed with regard to the peters township sanitarian authority and he has suggested that if council thought there would be value to his service he would be willing to serve on that board so i just put that up for you", "have we had any other applicants for that position mr coby who is the chairman of the peters creek sanitary authority who actually lives in the service area for the peters township sanitary authority has offered to serve on both boards", "and we have one other individual who i'm not familiar with who has submitted an application", "i would want to have the sylvestri guy come in so we can interview him", "in seriousness i don't know that you can find a more qualified individual to put on board but right now it's struggling to hire a new manager of the department you've got a couple of board members one who will be leaving relatively soon but anyway in addition to it i think we've got to take action and take the motion to appoint michael", "i don't disagree that mr silvestri is in a unique position to contribute but i think it would be somewhat inappropriate to not talk to the other people that would be my only concern", "and also talk to him a little bit about his thoughts related to the position we don't normally discuss board appointments", "i quite frankly would think it would be an insult to ask him to come in for an interview", "we've been working with him for forty years", "do you make a motion i would make a motion to appoint mike silvestri", "and i would second", "further discussion", "apparently there is none", "well mr lewis and i exchanged an email about this", "i just would like to have a conversation with mr sylvestri before i vote in his favor but since you've made a motion and there's a second on the floor feel free", "yeah i just think in this instance we do have a sense of urgency", "i think you actually pointed that was in the initial aspect of it", "i think the consequences of not taking action here and the opportunity to get mike's participation they might hire a manager", "can we have a roll call please sure", "mr kosir aye", "mr ball aye", "mr arcuri aye", "mr berquist aye", "mr stiegler aye", "mrs merrell i'll abstain", "mr lewis aye", "motion carries six zero one", "thank you", "other miscellaneous", "i just wanted to point this out to you", "we were approached by the peters township hockey club", "the club is a high school club but at one point in time that wasn't true", "when i first started here the hockey club was actually a club of the township", "they wanted to come up with a throwback jersey and they needed our permission since our logo shows up on it", "and they wanted to share with you what that jersey looks like", "this is actually going to i believe be a fundraiser for the hockey club but the jerseys must work they've used them in one game and won that game", "so i just wanted you to be aware of that", "and thank you i'll use that as a jumping off point for an event that takes place on wednesday", "it is a charity event for funds for this cotton fashion family", "it's the peters township alumni hockey game against cannon mac alumni it will be at south point", "i believed in helping tom it was at seven hundred and thirty although i'm not certain of the time i gave them", "our time is six hundred and fifty pm", "okay", "what time six hundred and fifty i think it had to do with ice time", "so they crap up the game over by what nine hundred and seventeen right not a minute over", "donations are five and kids are free so i would encourage anyone that would like something to do on a non stormy night wednesday i think would be a great gesture to fill the place", "i just have one last thing and one of the things i put in front of you if you're interested we have a bar mitzvah hand a report as to the payoff at the rolling hills country club that's to be filed in court shortly after christmas i understand", "it's on the bottom it's the last thing", "i'd be interested", "i don't have one", "well look at mine", "and that last item we opened the bids today on the bauer hill school we've received one bid it's from tom robinson", "tom is the individual who renovated the matching school to this and so his bid is twenty five thousand five hundred which was pretty much cover our costs", "one of the things that we've asked him to do is to take a good look at the building and to be able to give council some idea of whether or not he thinks it can be renovated because we took bids two ways", "one renovating the building and maintaining the facade and two tearing the structure down and i thought it might be important to council to understand what his intention was before we award the bid", "he's been given access to the building and he's going to get back to us", "i know his initial thought was renovating the buildings when he wanted to do", "his concern is the structural stability of the building", "i'd like to take a few moments to reflect on what we've gone through this year", "i thank this council", "i certainly want to thank the other members of the council for their indulgence we've had a very busy year", "the staff has been great in helping us come up with do i want to call them replacements or new additions to the community's resources and certainly different challenge", "i think that hopefully the tagent doesn't ever have to face to this degree again", "and paul my hats off to you the whole members out here", "do we need to recite all the people that we've had to replace well we don't need to recite all of them but i can tell you this", "the one thing that i feel so comfortable with is and this is in part the wisdom of council's decisionmaking the people who you have hired to replace really longterm department heads has been outstanding", "mr herson mr grimes mr lennick they are just wonderful people", "and these were difficult positions to step into given that somebody's occupied them for so long and done so well but each of them has met that challenge", "and i can tell you working with ryan he picks it up quick give him a project it gets done so we've got a good team in place right now", "i just genuinely feel that way myself with a lot of anxiety going into the year", "absolutely i agree", "we can look forward to moving ahead with this", "anybody else have any comments we did not receive an lsa grant and the grant was for the streetscape project", "we added a second application with the state of pennsylvania and that was not funded either", "we're going to go back and look at the streetscape project and try to arrange it in a way that we can do it within the funds that we've had budgeted", "and i think we can accomplish that by pairing the project back some", "just driving around the township it just seems like we've got a lot of areas where i talked to mr zilkha about this today where we've got water running over the roads creating a lot of icy conditions", "i saw one today on southern church road right past southern church", "there was another one on east mcmurry road and i'm trying to remember the other one i've seen", "i've never noticed them in these particular areas before", "we had two inches of rain followed by a fifteen degree night it was an unusual circumstance all over the south hill", "there are going to be reoccurring problems throughout this whole road", "route nineteen coming down toward that's bowzer i guess i would say water running down this separate territory public works", "i was on the phone this morning early", "i'm surprised we don't have more accidents comes around that turn and it's right there", "but you're absolutely correctly there", "you saw more of that this morning than you would normally see", "and i know the guys although they spent a lot of hours doing snow and ice removal over the weekend they were out first thing this morning hitting those icy spots", "okay thank you", "next agenda items which would be on the purpose of the press holiday on january 2nd", "we're all coming in that day", "and at that meeting we'll be recognizing two individuals one is sergeant collins will be here to be presented his medal for heroism", "and then in addition to that mr rogers is going to be here joseph rogers he's one hundred and two years old", "he'll be celebrating his one hundred and two birthday and we're going to be presenting him the key to peters township", "very good", "anything else that's it the meeting's adjourned and with that thank you very much"], "name": ["Peters_Township_Council_-_Regular_Meeting_-_December_19_2016/Peters_Township_Council_-_Regular_Meeting_-_December_19_2016/Peters_Township_Council_-_Regular_Meeting_-_December_19_2016_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "Peters_Township_Council_-_Regular_Meeting_-_December_19_2016/Peters_Township_Council_-_Regular_Meeting_-_December_19_2016/Peters_Township_Council_-_Regular_Meeting_-_December_19_2016_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "Peters_Township_Council_-_Regular_Meeting_-_December_19_2016/Peters_Township_Council_-_Regular_Meeting_-_December_19_2016/Peters_Township_Council_-_Regular_Meeting_-_December_19_2016_DOT_flac_00002.flac", 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issue", "and i do want you to know that we've been doing expect inspections of each building in the district", "we've included fire police our principals our director of building and grounds", "we've also included our architect hhsdr and we did a complete tour of the facility", "mr wasik and myself also accompanied that tour", "and i think what you're gonna see is there are gonna be some immediate things done in the district to improve security", "and we're also gonna be involved in some long range planning to improve security around the school district building by building", "obviously we're not gonna at this point discuss the details of the safety measures we're taking because there is an element of confidentiality in some of the issues that we're addressing", "mr french you may wanna share with the board the more comprehensive booklet that we did on school security", "thank you", "just real briefly i know this wasn't a main topic tonight", "as dr imperio said we did do an evaluation of all the buildings", "we did a fairly thorough booklet meant for discussion purposes but i don't think like you said you wanna maybe save some of this for later discussion due to the confidentiality of what we've found as far as security in each building", "this is was identified as phase two", "so as mentioned before i think phase one was addressing some immediate needs at each of the schools", "and then what you'll find here with further explanation later is the next step you would wanna take a look at", "when you look at it yourself it may be a little confusing", "i think that's why it's a good opportunity to sit down again and go through it pretty thoroughly because there's different options for each school", "and obviously each option has a different threshold of cost to try to address the needs", "so with that i think i'm gonna pass this booklet out and then you guys can think about it a little bit until we get together again", "and while mr francis distributing the booklets remember this is phase two", "phase one are more immediate issues", "i have shared those with the board by the weekend review and you'll be seeing some of those items for approval on the february agenda", "so this is what we would describe as more a little more long range", "okay does any board members have any questions on that well ron is did we get to look at it yeah well basically yes this is really just for us to know that this has occurred", "review what that's right", "you have all come up with and then for further discussion in one of your future meetings or something", "correct that is correct", "okay our next topic is gonna be mcmurry elementary", "and once again mr france is gonna be giving us a little dissertation of what our issues are", "and mr france i don't wanna steal any of your thunder but we did talk about phasing this project as well", "so you will see it in several stages", "right thank you", "john's passing out a handout that summarizes some of the priorities we identified at mcmurry", "and just to start off i don't know how familiar everybody is with john but john he was a he's an engineer in our office", "he's our one of our site civil engineers", "and he's been very heavily involved with the fields at pleasant valley", "so if you have any questions with that john can answer that", "but i think he's also gonna be here for the discussion later about the athletic complex", "yeah just a little brief history at mcmurry", "the last time i think i was here we talked about the pyrite issues at mcmurray and some of the expansive soils that have been moving under there", "i think last time i was here it was back in january of last year", "and it was just a basically a briefing of of the update of the report that you usually get", "you have a monitoring come in you have elliot surveying that comes in and establishes points throughout the building", "and then they measure the change in difference at those different points", "also at that time the board had chose to take a path at that time to kind of just wait and see and monitor those findings", "as they develop you had borrowed money along with your work", "you had identified at pleasant valley at the time and set it aside in case it got to a point where it was needed to further address", "so tonight just real briefly to touch on that", "you've had your recent round of of reports back from the surveyor and they were done in november of last year two thousand and twelve", "and basically the findings are pretty much the same as what we've expected in general in the same areas that have been suspect in the previous reports", "it's still moving in those areas too", "it's approximately about a quarter of inch more", "it seems like the areas that are affected those areas are continuing to move", "it's not drastic", "it's nothing to be alarmed or concerned about", "i think at this point as you decided in the past i think it's something you can just continue to monitor be diligent about about the situation there and constantly keep your eyes open for different situations to developed but it's not something that's gonna occur overnight", "it would be a real hazard", "it's just something that we need to be aware of", "as i've pointed out in the past it's not related to the structure of the building", "it's all entirely independent of the structure that the structure is sound there", "it's localized to the floor slab and anything that's constructed off of that first floor slab", "the upper floors are completely safe as is the first floor", "is it still mostly on the one in the one area though it's not the whole floor right it's mostly just that one side still correct", "the front of the building is okay and the back of the building is okay", "and it's that middle seam of the building that is really being shifted", "and it's that mechanical room through the stage and over across to the office area and the old kindergarten wing", "if you recall our discussions at one time the way that building was constructed there was a lot of cut and there was a lot of fill on there", "and if you look at the topography of the site you can actually see the profile of how they carved out the hillside to place the building there", "on the backside of the building is where they did the significant amount most amount of cut to construct the building", "and that's where they took out all the pirated material", "at the front of the building is where they put a lot of fill", "so there's a lot of overburden over top of the pirate that was still buried", "so it's safe it wasn't disturbed", "it's that seem right through the middle where it was closest to the cut not enough was removed and that's what has become expansive", "and that's what's affecting the four slabs", "mr perez i have a question", "the information that a john carly handed out here with all the photos of what looks like some damage that has nothing to do with the pirate does it is that a second topic that's the second topic yeah", "if anybody has any questions about the pirate as i said i think it's something you wanna monitor but if you wanna and i'm sure that mr gall has full control of this and knows what to look for", "but when you say things that might show up red flags and you say it should be monitored when is the next time that you would come out yourself or whoever you have or however this works how often are we thinking in a year six months three months unless mr gall finds something else what do you mean by monitor the process up to date since two thousand and ten has been every six months", "you have your surveyor come in shoot the points and then i kind of review them and share them with the administration on what the next step would be", "so i would suggest you continue that correct", "okay", "thank you", "okay anybody have any more questions on the pirate no okay then we'll move on and talk about", "okay", "excuse me i don't have a question about the pirate but i'd like to know was this because maintenance wasn't being done these things then or", "well let's start on those there", "what john handed out there was a a list of priorities that we've established and this was initiated by mr meesha", "he wanted me to come out one day late last year and take a look at some of the the water leaking in the library and also some windows that were leaking", "that's how he reported them to me", "and what we found was some of the windows in the existing building are leaking air and water the most significant areas are in the library i've identified that as priority one here", "that cost there is to replace those windows", "for whatever reason that's on a weathered side of the building", "it's exposed to a lot of rain and wind and the gasketing on the windows they're wood windows and they have aluminum cladding on the outside of them", "the gasketing on those windows has failed", "it's not a maintenance item", "i don't know that what could have been done to prevent that", "it almost seems like it's a combination of the manufacturing of the window and the combination of the weather and just the harsh conditions on it", "for some reason on that side of the building and the openness of the space driving against that side of the building probably a slew of different things i could name", "but given that that's the condition you have there now", "if you look at the first photograph there that kind of describes to you shows you where we're at on the building these are the seven windows that are in front of the building facing the parking lot", "this is the upper library", "these are areas that are failing", "there's also two windows on the upper corridor of the second floor that are also have this condition", "if you look on page three this is an upclose of that library", "you can see that bottom sill from the water compromising that gasketing of the glass the water gets in behind that aluminum threshold", "and just basically soaks that wood until it rots", "and then the window has failed at that point", "the lower picture on page three you can see all the aluminum trim is pushed away because the wood behind it has swelled", "and it's just push that aluminum off of there", "same thing with page four you can see on the upper part of that trim on that bottom window the gas fitting is pushed out of it", "so all those pictures there i just i just noticed those were at the library and i've identified those as if that's something you wanna address at this time it can be taken care of for the cost that i've estimated there", "i think that's something you could even do internally as far as bidding out on your own and getting quotes on because of the dollar amount associated with it", "just as a side note aside from those windows i wanted to take a look at the rest of the windows inside the building as well", "page four at the bottom shows a window completely separate from those library windows", "this is in the courtyard", "and although it's not as severe i just wanted to point out that you can still see that gasketing failing along that trim line of the bottom of that window again", "so it leads me to believe that it might be something related to the process of fabricating the windows at some point but whatever it is that's the condition that exists there", "are these are the same kind of windows that are used elsewhere in the building and we're not seeing it or are they", "primarily yes", "they're all a wood clad window yes", "do we know if they're all the same manufacturer or we don't know that they are they are yeah", "they're original to the building when it was constructed in ninety three", "you know we did some investigation on the warranty that was in place probably when it was constructed", "the glazing itself the glass glazing has a twenty year warranty which would have just recently expired", "but i have a feeling this isn't the glazing this is the actual window construction holding the glazing in place and that was a ten year warranty", "yeah it's gonna be our expense", "we don't frequently specify these windows and we weren't the architect here just to preface that but it's very uncommon that that would even happen with this window", "i'm not sure why this condition occurred but it has", "they all seem to be in the same area so", "yeah", "and in a similar condition deteriorating to a point where they'll all be like this", "so just going back to the first page i placed those windows that are in the worst condition as your first priority you wanna address sooner than later and then priority three would be the remainder of the windows in the building when you see fit that that would be an item that you would wanna address", "how many windows in each are we talking about well there's seven in that first phase", "and i think there was", "forty or fifty in the remainder of the building", "and there ere large expanses of they get larger as they get closer to the classrooms", "but in general yes about fifty windows", "so that's what i'm sorry", "that's what's down in priority three summer two thousand and fourteen or later", "yes okay", "so that's the full remainder of the building", "yes", "quick question in the priority one it looks like there's seven windows in the library and two in the corridor", "is that a total of nine for three thousand one hundred", "so they're not three thousand five hundred a window at seven", "they're a little cheaper than that", "right", "and there are different sizes too", "you can see on that page too that the ones in the library larger and the two that are in the corridor are just small smaller openings", "okay we can come back to this i'll move into priority two here", "this was another finding that we noticed going back to my initial introduction here with john when he brought me out there that day we had found that there was a driving storm", "it might've been one of the larger hurricane sandy at the time but there was water leaking along the wall in the library", "and we just replaced the roofs up there and all the flashings all the coping", "so it was strange that there was this water coming in and upon further evaluation on a dryer day looking at the outside walls of the upper part of the buildings the walls are very wet", "and let's just go through some of these photos here", "i can describe to you where we are", "on page five this is an upper upper north wall", "this is like facing the bus garage to get your bearings", "and then on bottom of page five as we get closer to the wall you can see how some of the mortar joints are wet", "and this was a actually a dry day", "so it's actually holding that water after it does rain and it's causing really premature deterioration of those mortar joints", "getting a little closer look turn the page to six", "this is another portion of an upper north wall over top of the classroom wing by the gable end also facing the bus garage", "and then on the bottom of page six you can see the the wet joints there's actually mildew inside the making those joints black on the outside of the building", "water's getting inside of that face of that wall and pushing the salts from the mortar out", "you can see some white staining there and the mortar and the brick faces cracking", "there's a crack a hairline crack you see there", "is that still facing the bus garage or is that in a different direction this is facing the bus garage all these walls yes", "i'm looking at page seven", "this is a different area on the bus side on the bus garage side of the building", "what's happened here is the stone coping around the perimeter of the high walls around the roof", "the coping joints have failed", "if you see the bottom picture there those are joints that are cocked on top of the wall holding the two stone pieces together", "once that joint has been has failed and the water actually gets down inside that face of that wall and then when it freezes and thaws it just blows those faces of those bricks off", "and that's what you're seeing above on the top picture there", "similar on page eight", "this is a freestanding wall at the dumpster area", "this is also one of a few conditions that that happens over by that dumpster area", "there's also a fuel tank that has a screen wall around it as well that looks very similar to this", "and then also the stack for the the boiler room on the bottom picture there", "and it's difficult picture to to make out there but you can see the staining and the and the salts pushing out", "and this is all a product of that water getting into the top surface of that wall and then just as it goes through those freeze thaw cycles it either pushes that water back out through the wall or sucks it in when it's raining and just causes the wall to deteriorate", "again it's nothing that is a hazard", "there's not bricks falling but it is something that you'll wanna address sooner than later", "the longer that this continues it's only gonna get worse and become more costly once you do finally address it", "so the point of tonight was just to point these out to you and let you make a decision on how you budget when you approach the scope of work", "moving on to page eight these are vertical masonry control joints", "these are typically caulked", "you can see that the caulking has failed and then it's letting water into these locations as well", "not good for the wall again", "and then on the last page we did some investigative work to see why this water was actually getting down into the library", "so we had an independent consultant come in from cleveland he's with the international masonry institute", "and we opened up a portion of the wall and you can see the counter flashing that lets the roof terminate against that wall", "and then you can actually see the through wall flashing", "it's that copper colored on the bottom picture that would let the water any water that would get into the wall it would let it drain out through the bottom of the wall", "so you actually designed these walls to if they do get water into them there's a way for it to escape", "so the first thought we know we were wondering why this water was even getting into the library but when we opened the wall up you could see that the gauge of the copper that was used at the time of construction was very thin", "and any droppings from the mortar when they laid the brick up could have easily nicked it or what have you", "and they're overlapped every eight feet as well", "so soon as a large amount of water entered that wall and built up it had to release somewhere", "so it eventually worked its way down in the library", "so that's a summary that's going back to the first page", "that's what we identified under priority two", "those are the masonry repairs in the first set of items there", "the caulking repairs the items i did not have photos of was also the metal roof", "the roof itself is in good shape", "it's the gutters and your transmission systems of your water for over the time i don't know if it's acid rain but the gutters and downspouts have just have rotted through and they were leaking water so probably at this time would be a good time to replace them", "underneath the priority two where it says masonry repairs the one that's next to the bottom remove reinstall new thruwall counter flashing on north side of building", "the bottom picture on page ten does that mean that we're gonna open up the brick all along that wall replace all that copper flashing that's in there exactly", "that's what i think the best course of action at this point and not knowing exactly where the water's coming in at", "i think the best course of action is to open that wall up in small areas and replace that flashing", "likewise if you look under", "which one is it third item underneath masonry repairs", "i mentioned that stone coping that has been compromised in the head joint so that stone is leaking water down into the wall", "there as well instead of just pushing more caulking into that at this time i think the best course of action is to put a continuous metal top over top of that stone", "it's not gonna change the appearance of the building but at least it's gonna give a solid surface on the top of that the water can get down", "for that bullet yes okay", "does that also carry over to page nine yeah it's a similar picture showing that coping top yes", "so are these problems a design problem a construction problem or a material problem well that's a good question", "i've been trying to figure that out myself since when we found these i think it's a combination of everything", "there has been some conditions there that like those copings we're talking about it's very unusual for a stone coping to be placed on top of a wall without some type of flashing underneath there", "so if the water does get through that stone it doesn't get down into the wall", "that's a typical detail that's commonplace in practice", "it's shown that way sometimes on the design documents that was this built building was constructed from", "sometimes it is sometimes it isn't but when i go out in the field it doesn't look like it's really installed anywhere", "so i'm not sure what the contractor was doing at the time why it wasn't installed but that would have helped the situation", "the vertical walls i think that's just a combination of the weather and it being hit by the weather", "and for whatever reason the mortar that was used maybe was a soft mortar compared to the brick", "and it's just letting the mortar get wet and seeping into the wall", "but yeah i mean it could be it could be a combination of things", "could the problem with the windows even be due to some of the movement that we've had in that building due to what we've about due to the pyrite or the movement and the building because it has shifted some over these couple years since you've been watching that", "yeah it's been reasonable visibly in that one area where was that in the corner the back by i think the yeah the back door on that corridor is really moving yeah that was significant", "so that could even not to mention what are they thirty years old i mean", "yeah i don't think the exterior walls are affected by that condition", "all those exterior walls that you see from the outside as well as the windows they're on deep footings and they go through that pyrite and that they they're on caissons basically they go into bedrock", "internal to the building it's just the four slabs that are floating over that those areas of the pyrite", "so i don't i think they're two separate issues", "so are the and i'm just curious i know you have some pricing here and you don't usually do that and that's really doesn't need to be discussed anyway in detail tonight but i'm wondering when you think about putting new windows in there do you think about windows that have any wood in them i mean would we use vinyl windows now or what what would we what did you what are you thinking i don't know if you did this or if someone did this price for you", "what i was planning to replace them with is in an all aluminum type window", "it's very similar to what we did over at your middle school in eight", "all of the windows are similar to these here", "they don't have that vinyl covering on them that always ends up flapping in the wind anyway", "yeah okay", "any other questions on mcmurry any topic you left me speechless", "i must say", "well i think the good part of the report is that it is it has been phased out by mr france and hhsdr", "so it gives us some options on when things have to be done", "we're not saying that everything needs to be done all at one time and that's good", "and thank you very much for that", "yeah if you're thinking about jumping into any of these projects just looking ahead this is probably work that you want to plan for summer", "it can tail off into early fall", "i mean it's outside work so it could occur while students are inside of the building", "it won't be shouldn't be that disruptive", "so just as far as your decisionmaking working back to that we'd have to prepare documents a scope of work to get contractor on board during those periods of time so", "and phase one we can do that pretty much on our own i think as you and i talked about", "yes i could work with ron and give him an example of a spec that he could you could put out and vince you just put advertise yourselves or get quotes on to get those addressed but then if you replaced the windows later that would be a larger scope", "i don't know if you wanna follow that same protocol", "any other questions is this interfering with the temperature inside the library right now those windows you said the the airflow is the windows interrupting the air flow", "is it interrupting the temperature inside the library no unless you're right at that window and you were to hold your hand up then you could you could feel the temperature difference", "it's not affecting the entire space", "okay thank you mr france thanks", "okay next speaker will be mr john corley", "he also was from hhsdr", "correct evening folks", "last thursday first of all i'm the civil engineer with hhsdr", "i've done tracks and fields for about fifteen years", "as matt had alluded to earlier i was highly involved with the pv field project", "that's ongoing still unfortunately we're trying to wrap that up", "just to give everybody a little quick scenario on that", "there was some paperwork final paperwork mainly with the conservation district that required an asbuilt that i finally had issued to me", "i'm reviewing it currently so we should be able to wrap up the paperwork", "the items outstanding on the site are mostly landscaping", "half the trees have died", "the bushes are in sad shape and the grass has not taken to my satisfaction", "i think there's only about sixty of the grass that has taken good routes", "so the contractor will be coming out here in the spring to replant replace the dead plantings also and that should hopefully wrap up the project at that point in time", "last thursday mr gaunt and brian geiger and myself went out to the stadium to actually do an evaluation of the existing conditions of the stadium", "i think how i'd like to we also had a gentlemen excuse me", "we also had a gentleman that i invited dennis o'donnell who is currently with nagel surfaces", "he's also formerly been with turf systems last att which was a formerly southwest track or turf surfaces who was the first system you had down at the stadium prior to the prograss system that was put down ten years ago", "that's just to give you a little bit of the history of that", "so he's very well familiar with the existing the original system turf system that was down at the stadium", "how i'd like to do this is talk about it in three different aspects of my evaluation", "first i'd like to talk about the track surfaces meaning the track itself and the actual field events", "this system here is essentially what you have down here", "this black portion at the bottom is a rubber base sheet", "and then it has a it's about thirteen inches thick", "it's about a nine millimeters i'm sorry thirteen millimeters thick", "it's yeah it's got about nine millimeters of the black matting", "and then it has a three to four millimeters of what they call a structural spray coating on top", "your system out there i believe was put down ten years ago along with the turf system", "what my evaluation showed is it's showing a somewhat normal wear particularly in lanes one and two which are the lanes that are used the most", "there is some deterioration almost complete deterioration of the structural spray", "the good news is that your rubber matting underneath is in fine shape", "there is no evidence of a delamination blistering some of the signs you see of it coming up and needing repairs", "there certainly are some a few areas that do need some full depth repairs but all in all the rubber matting is in good shape", "it's a twenty year system", "usually i tell folks and every six to seven years you should have restructural spray on it to help keep its life its surface life longer kinda like seal coating on asphalt parking lot", "always helps the life of the asphalt", "this is the same with the structural spray on a track system of this kind", "you also have to restripe obviously when that occurs but it can actually make a twenty year system into a thirty year system", "my evaluation there are some repairs that would need to be done but i think if you just go out and have a restructural spray on top of the existing surface they may have to come and put some filler in in some locations particularly the javelin the javelin runway which is underwater", "it had some grading issues whether it's settled or wasn't installed correctly but there's actually water floating on top of it", "but i think most of that can be taken care of with maybe milling off some asphalt putting additional asphalt and then putting a patch of this system on top", "but all in all my summary is that i feel the black matting is in great shape it just needs a restructural spray which they recommend again that you do every five years", "i say you can do it every six or seven years on your system in your life", "have we had it done in the ten years we no you haven't no", "and is it a matter of doing the entire track or just doing lane one and two i would recommend that you do the entire track because there's a fade issue", "you'll notice just like if you go out and do emergency patching right now you'll see the bright you'll see this red and not the orangeish red that you have out there now", "so you will see a patch and as you will see lane one and two would be more brighter than the other lanes", "now that you know with the striping you can do it so that you have the actual lane striping right at the difference between the old and the new", "but my recommendation would be to do the entire structural spray", "any questions on the track surface what does it cost an eight lane track typically would be i would say around fifty to fifty five thousand to do the structural recoding or the spraying", "and that would include the line striping also", "so can we assume if we divide by eight we could figure out for ourselves how much it would cost to doing one and two or does it", "fair enough i think", "there'll be just doing two lanes will be a little more than linear because you've got the administrative costs that you're gonna have", "right the less you use as far as the quantity the more the price may go up a little bit more correct", "the turf i think i'd like to talk about next", "you have again a ten year system there", "it was put on by prograss", "originally there was a southwest system on there and when the prograss came in and put it took off the old system and put on this new system they lived in what we call an any elayer", "and under that elayer we suspect and hopefully we're gonna get some courts done to verify that there's probably an asphaltic layer under that too", "these two layers are i don't know how old that stadium is", "probably twenty five years old since the last system has been down", "but that elayer is saturated", "at this point it's showing warps it's got undulations in it", "it's causing an irregular surface it's causing a surface that's inconsistent", "it's hard one area soft the other area", "it looks atrocious if you get up close to it also", "as far as the actual skin itself the pro grass it looks like that was a slit film", "slit film only came out about ten years ago", "so that was probably prograss's first rendition of it", "and anytime you get the first of it like from a company of that nature you find out that they come out with second and third and fourth generations because they improved upon their first one", "that tenyearold turf system to me looks like it's about seventeen years old", "it's really has matted down to the point that it doesn't look like a viable surface anymore even to try and groom it up and put an infill in to try and rejuvenate it i don't think it would be costeffective", "and then with elayer being underneath and the possibility of having a layer of an asphalt underneath the elayer that's out there i would recommend at this point to look at taking that skin off seeing the condition of the elayer more than likely getting rid of the elayer and the asphaltic layer under there putting sand in its place which will soften the system which is a good thing to get for safety", "and then look at putting a new skin on top of it", "the good news there as well as with the track itself is they both drain great", "there is no ponding on the actual track oval", "there is no ponding we were out there in a fairly good rain", "it had rained for at least twenty hours", "there was no evidence of any kind of drainage issues on the turf", "so the drainage system which is a high ticket item underneath the turf looks to be operating terrifically", "so it's just a matter of dealing with the issue of the elayer and the surface of the turf system", "the third item would be the dzones", "now the dzones for those of you don't know are the little they're called dzones because they're shaped like a d", "they're the areas behind the goal line and the oval", "they're where your long jumps are at your triple jump your high jump and your pole vault", "these areas are probably in the most dire need of some kind of in my opinion they need to be taken out and redone completely", "you have large cracks that probably the largest one's about an inch and a half", "water certainly getting into the substrate which hasn't affected the turf system or the track system", "but if left unchecked could certainly cause some drainage issues under the surfaces that are in good shape", "they're showing signs of blistering decay", "the one area the one side i think it's the north side is a complete track surface on top the other side other than the pole vault i believe it's just a painted asphalt surface", "again i think these systems i'm pretty sure that both these dzones have the original substrates that have been down for again twenty five years", "and we're certainly introducing water into the subgrade which could affect the other systems that are still in good shape drainagewise", "my recommendation on these would be to take out what's there and either come back with an asphalt surface or more preferably for safety reasons come back with an asphalt surface with a track system on top of it", "those are the three areas that i evaluated as far as the concerns", "now i know brian one of the first things i noticed out there and brian concurs with me is that there's only four feet of turf from the back line of each end zone to the hard surface", "this is a safety issue too as far as i'm concerned with football field hockey and soccer", "i'm not sure about the other sports but i do know that there could be an athlete that could cascade themselves over that turf area", "i told brian we could certainly extend the turf to about five feet", "might even be able to get six feet additional turf area behind those end zones which would make it a safer situation for all the athletes and the users of the facility", "it would mean that we would have to move the pole vault which would be no big issue whether we it's the sand pit on the other side that would be a little bit more of a cost endeavor to relocate that", "there's plenty of room to relocate those field events and to extend the turf system to a more safer distance behind the end zone", "doesn't have to be done i just personally believe that's a safety issue", "you could just look at replacing everything in kind out there as it is now if that would be the preference of the school district", "that was two years ago when doctor zeddy did the walkthrough of all the facilities that was an item that was raised at that point because you run off the end of the field and the surface is so slick like concrete that if you're wearing cleats or something you run off the end of the turf you go flying across the hard surface at the end", "can you replace that with some of the track surfacing at that point yes", "would that be cheaper than turf not that much cheaper you're gonna replace it with something at this point in my opinion the dzones need to be replaced", "so if you were replacing it with asphalt and a track surface or you're gonna gut it out and put in the the aggregate and the turf system i think the cost to do one as opposed to the other you're not gonna find a whole lot of difference in that cost since you're replacing it with something", "one other thing about extending the turf system", "there is a curve in there that would have to be taken out and another curve repoured", "i think though the drainage we can minimize i think we could put in a few bleeder drains and just slope the stone itself in that six foot area that we wouldn't have to incur a lot of costs if we wanted to extend that the turf", "did i understand you to say that you were thinking about moving the poll vaulting on the out of the outside of the track no just move them if we moved the turf out six feet we just would move those events six feet along with it", "and it looks to me that we won't even lose any distance of the runways", "the runways could all stay the same length that they are", "we would still have a little bit of interference with one of the sand pits", "it would be within ten feet but we can still think about how we're gonna lay that out", "and what would be the cost of these items hold your hat", "let's forget about it let's forget about extending the turf at this point", "let's just say we're gonna replace the turf as it is", "we are looking at probably four hundred thousand to replace to get rid of the old get rid of the elayer put in two inches of sand in place so that elayer and then putting down a new synthetic turf with the infill", "you're probably talking about four hundred thousand to do that work", "does that include the cost of that track now the track would still be the the fifty what i say fifty five fifty five fifty five for the track work", "that'd be four hundred and fifty five thousand to do the whole thing", "no the dzones we haven't addressed that", "and do you have a cost for those these are all estimates but i would say to do each dzone would be aboutwas fifty three fifty three i'm gonna say fifty five to do each one fifty five thousand one hundred and ten thousand to do both that's correct", "and the turf currently is out of warranty now right yes eight year warranty on the turf", "and that's been down for ten years", "your track surfaces are fiveyear warranty", "again that's been down for ten years", "how many years is this part of it been underwater one part that you mentioned was underwater", "is that the javelin pit that's what i've gotten here", "it's slowly i'm not sure what's under it but the ground you can visibly see the day we arrived there it was snowing raining a little bit", "it was pretty much underwater", "we've been patching it for years but i think the asphalt needs to be replaced and that area just needs to be stabilized", "one of the thing about those dzones too", "they are flat which they need to be for the high jump", "it has a very a flat tolerance for the event itself", "but the cracks are probably what's draining it right now", "and i think we probably would have to look at maybe even upping that fifty five to maybe sixty to put in some drainage to make sure that whatever new system we put in there that it drains properly", "if you move that outside of the track and any i mean any future potential then would be eliminated it's that correct near the track itself", "if i moved what out of the track moved the pole vaulting and that on the other side of that track that would be an independent system out there which would not then in the future potentially affect the football field", "correct", "would that cost more or less to move that out there you're just going to what are you going to what are you proposing to do to the existing dzones if you move the events out i don't know what's the options i mean grass would be the cheapest but it would be hard to maintenance it over the other surfaces", "you could just make it asphalt and keep the bleachers on it which would be sufficient for that", "you could probably fix the cracks", "it would be", "i think it would be it would be more money to move everything outside because you have to do something to the dzones because just because of the cracks and the drainage infiltration that's occurring right now", "so it's in plus there's a stone base in the existing d areas that we're gonna be able to reuse if not keep in place", "and then if we go outside we have to have we have to make sure we have a proper subgrade and we'd have to put in new stone base and new drainage", "so yes it would be cheaper to leave them and fix them inside the dzones", "well would that run another possibility of having the same kind of issues in the future no not if we drain it not if we put in proper drainage", "i just wanted to make sure i took the appropriate notes", "at one point when you were talking about the turf you were saying the good news was the drainage is terrific and works well", "so that's only under the turf", "the dzones have a problem with their drainage yes they do", "again there is no drainage per se inside of them", "they're ponding everywhere", "but it's not spilling over onto the turf", "at this point no but it's infiltrating into the subgrade which could affect the drainage from the other systems", "separate systems yes", "brian did you wanna add anything looking at our turf you probably need brian you probably need to be at a mic and get you on a camera yeah", "looking at our turf if we make the investment to do this this year you won't be replacing a turf field for ten years", "when they put the prograss that was the first all rubber prograss field", "again as john said that was the initial version", "estimated use was eight to ten years", "we got the high end of this field right now", "now with new fields with properly maintaining them you're going ten to twelve to thirteen years in some schools with the new fields", "and i think if we do this our field there is soft spots", "there are hard spots and it's more related to elayer broken down", "elayer at this point it's twenty years old it's lasted two turfs", "and that's where you have your problems", "we had to stop games in the middle of games to replace areas of turf that have lifted up", "that that's how bad some of this is last year during our soccer season in particular", "and i think that looking at the field that we have up top you can tell the difference between the two fields and and i've seen a lot of turf fields", "i go a lot of games and i haven't seen one in the shape and the condition that we've gotten out of it that we have right now in our stadium", "yeah brian do you have any idea how many students", "use the field in one year what's the question how many student athletes use the field", "if you happen to have those figures with you huh i do", "isn't that amazing mr guy comes prepared", "between all of our games practices and again we're splitting teams between the pv field and the stadium", "i have a number of forty six thousand people use that field on average a year", "and again some of those are duplicates", "you know there's twenty kids on the freshman soccer team", "they use it fifteen times that year", "so those are numbers that are added up between everybody who uses that field", "and i'm not counting the physical education classes", "i'm not counting anybody from the community who just shows up and uses the field on their own", "i'm just talking about what i know from our sports internally from rec sports who also use the field on a permanent basis", "and this is our high school field right in front of the high school not both pd and the high school that's just the stadium", "our students and any competitors of similar size teams", "correct", "thank you mr garner", "i know this is school district property", "it's our responsibility to maintain it but have you had any interest along the lines from other groups like the township gets soccer boosters or football boosters to help them when they put in turf or lights or things have you had any interest from folks who might be wanting to help us raise some money to do this i don't think we've put that out there yet", "i know i have people willing to help with projects in the district more so scoreboards than anything but i don't think we've got to that point yet", "i know our booster groups they raised some money but they also spend some money", "so their their margin of donation i don't think is that all that great", "but obviously that's something that we can at least put out there and see what we can get", "we've talked a little bit about corporate sponsorship and all sorts of things", "we don't have to talk about all that now but i mean everybody's doing it", "it's just so collect your data on that", "maybe the next meeting we'll be asking you about it", "i have a question for mr carly what type of window are we talking as far as to remove the existing field and install a new one are we talking two months three months what kind of duration would that field be out of service if we did all three phases of the work meaning the track surfaces the turf surface and the dzones i would consider that to be about a three and a half month project", "three and a half months if we were to just do the field first and then do the track it at different time", "what kind of timeframe are we talking first of all i recommend that's a good idea to go from inside out", "number one to do that turf system that could be without extending it i would say with extending it", "with extending it because the curb work is what takes some time there", "i would say then that that would probably that could be done in a month", "in a month", "because my thought would be we could rush to football season", "and then of course we have time between football season and track so that was the thought of trying to well you don't wanna put it down in the winter", "like we had issues at pv", "i was wondering if graduation is usually the first week of june and football if brian is nice and schedule our first two home games away you could have half of june all of july and a little part of august right to our first home football game is the first friday in september which gives us i believe a three month window to put turf down", "with graduation being the first friday in june", "we wouldn't need that field until the first friday in september", "we have some flexibility obviously with pv to move other sports up there temporarily", "well keep in mind extending that turf back six feet we have to address the pole vault and one of the long jump runways", "cause they will be in conflict with how far we feel we should go back with the turf", "and when do we use those the spring the spring yes", "well i mean the runways you'd have track surface on them", "so yeah i mean it would make sense economically to do it when you did track work", "well that three hundred and fifty thousand we got in our bond refinancing isn't the last long between windows", "okay", "do you want me to bring this up all right that's a question we can ask later", "we do wanna touch real briefly on one alternative", "this project really does bode well for what they call a keystone purchasing network where you can actually go through this networking save a little bit of money but mostly you save time", "as far as the design is concerned they would need some drawing layout that can show them quantities but it comes actually through them an agency out in eugene oregon who they buddy up in this case with nagle track surfacing and field turf who were two of the most outstanding manufacturers in the field of turf and track", "this is a purchasing program that again kind of cuts out some of the overhead", "they don't have actually have a general contractor overseeing them which then again i would recommend that we oversee them so they don't police themselves but it does help in time as far as getting purchases getting deliveries the design and this since this project really we're not changing anything that isn't gonna evolve any permitting", "i don't think ed zilkha and the township is going to consider this a land development", "i could check with that to make sure but since it's all resurfacing it's a maintenance project", "so there is no real permitting or submittals that we would need to do so we could get this on a faster track if we at least explored the purchasing network", "the downside to that is you're stuck with the two manufacturers", "you don't get to now they each have different systems within themselves that you could shop but you know you can't go out and shop different manufacturers", "you're kind of stuck with the two that are offering the cooperative", "they also do scoreboards too as part of their coop yeah the alternative would be to go out and competitively bid it which means that we could get different products different manufacturers involved and get the prices between chevy and ford so to speak", "and that could get the price close to where these folks are at", "the trouble is with that is the bidding period", "this eliminates that three week bidding period and the award period", "actually i have mr dennis o'donnell working on some numbers just to get them together so they can we can look at them to see what this would offer us", "and we could he's more than willing to come and talk to the board also", "tell them more expertly about this system", "sounds like you've already made up your mind", "sounds like you're going one step are we still in a discussion well dennis is a salesman", "so he's willing to do the treading and just to show us what the numbers the real numbers are", "having any discussion on this i mean you've gone like one step far", "are you tying down there do you need to change the film okay cool", "i thought we were talking about the maintenance of buildings", "yeah so anyway to answer your question before the camera went off this has this has not been discussed", "we're just collecting information", "this is the first time i've heard of any of this and sue's over there holding her heart", "so i know this is the first time i've heard of it too", "so mr guyer mr carly i really appreciate all the work and time you've put into it but i have to say personally there are so many other capital improvement projects that i would rather see before this happen", "so i also feel that other people in this room have known about this before and i did not", "who who i have no idea", "so how did people know about it you know there just seem to be some strategically placed questions that had magically come up", "oh for goodness sakes sue sue sue that's crazy we never sue sue not at this meeting", "sue sue call your meeting to order you have a gavel there", "this is not gonna happen in a public venue", "this is enough", "no one has discussed this it's just wrong", "that's enough that's my opinion", "well sometimes you need to keep your opinions to yourself", "cause i'll tell you what this is a public discussion", "and this is the first time i've ever heard about this", "i've heard about the first time i've heard of it that there is on all of it there's a safety concern as far as i'm concerned", "if in fact there is a safety issue and we may have to address it", "we brought this safety issue of two years ago in nina's walked through when i was buildings and grounds chair and we went to every facility in the district", "and this is basically an informational meeting this is not a voting meeting i understand that", "so while these gentlemen are here then don't falsely accuse me of things", "we wanna we wanna we wanna use all the resources you're taking away valuable time from these gentlemen who've come here with an expertise", "so that an embarrassment and that's ridiculous", "you have no proof of that", "why would you say that i'm not embarrassing you", "you are an embarrassment", "that's terrible we work as a team", "does anybody have any more questions to these gentlemen as far as their expertise", "what was your timeframe you were thinking by doing it you weren't thinking it this summer or when are you thinking of we have the time to do it this summer if we can get it through", "i'm just going back to the last time we did it", "there's a lot of planning done to start literally the day after graduation", "right", "and even then with all that with the weather and all the other variables it was squeezed to get in in order to get football going", "right", "now we're in february", "to go through the entire planning process bidding much less how are we gonna pay for this right", "i don't see how you're ever gonna get this done in a matter of three months", "so i guess i question whether we'd get it done this summer or are we looking for possibly doing it during school forget the football here we're putting it into next year", "okay", "and obviously that decision is your decision", "i think that we were just brought here to explain the issue that we have", "whenever we do it eventually you're gonna have to do it just based off of the age of the system", "this year if we don't have the time to do it", "so be it but at least we're making an attempt just to get it on your radar", "right well and that goes back to something ron alluded to", "there was safety issues", "now the last time we did this it was never brought up anything about the dzone that that needed to be done", "so you know has something changed that it's not nearly as safe now as it was then or what happened and john correct me but i think the you see a lot of a lot of cracks appearing maybe ten years ago when you did it you didn't have those cracks because the system was again ten years newer than it is now", "you have a 22yearold 21yearold stadium", "it's starting to show wear especially in those d areas and there's some significant cracking going on in the d areas", "it's taken a lot of the track surface with it not the track where the eight lanes are but the track inside those d areas", "there's some chunking going on in there as well where it's actually pulling apart", "okay the first false was ninety two when that stadium was actually used for the first time", "so we just passed twenty years on it just to get the timeframe when it was so okay", "okay does anybody have any questions for these gentlemen no but i don't have any questions but i do have something i'd like to say to mr carly", "yes", "in construction business and having some several lumberyards myself", "i certainly understand when you work with somebody you just feel they're the best", "and i understand your excitement there", "so i understand what you were while you were presenting these people trying to get it done you know them you know their history been in the business a long time", "so i get that and i thank you for that", "it's you know just it's one of those things you know who you know and you know when you know that they're the best that's it", "so thank you for that i understand that", "you're welcome", "don't know where the board could ever end up on those decisions but understand what what your thought is", "the company could do this under the network field turf and nagle track surfacing yes", "the manufacturer is sport techs", "so we couldn't go up there and hear it sport techs will have a comparable system to what's up there yes", "they have a slit film system which is the system and that's an all rubber system and they have a system very similar to that", "based on what a couple of the board members have said are you talking about this system as though it's on like a prebid list like we have other things on state lists is that what you're saying the time of bidding in other words has the state already approved these bidders as they do for example when we buy technology hardware and software it's very similar to that", "dennis could probably tell you a little bit more about it", "i haven't i've only dealt with a purchasing network once before on a project", "it's preapproved by the state correct correct", "and it is an alternative if speed is the necessity to get something in quickly to conventional bidding", "okay no further questions right no but there is some price breaks on that too right well correct we have that filing i don't wanna be repetitive but you know in my husband's companies in his selling supply yards we have buying groups that can save you a lot of money as well as time oh absolutely", "so that's something we could look at too", "yes thank you", "okay thank you", "okay moving on", "we're gonna go to attachment one", "in attachment one", "there's actually a revision", "so we're gonna pass out the revisions", "that was the second page", "thank you", "i think so", "okay on attachment one there you can see many items that were listed", "a lot of the items were listed by the maintenance ron gauld actually put input on this", "once again these are not all projects that are gonna be done but we're looking at that need to be done at some point", "start off with the at the high school", "and we look the roof over the main gym and the science wing", "there's actually many water leaks in the high school", "i was kinda naive to the fact last year when there was some work done on the roof i thought they were doing the whole roof", "yeah so did i", "and in fact because of budget regions it's broken up into different sections", "they have areas of the roof that have not been done and that needs to be done", "so until we get that completed you're gonna constantly have leaks and we would like to solve that issue", "so that's something that i think we should look at", "mr denliving yes sir", "the vents on the roof i know whenever i was over there i forget what i think it was a volleyball game", "the room inside of the gym got very hot", "and so the people were forcing the doors open so they get some ventilation", "now i understand that there's a problem with the vents we have on those on the roof in the gym", "is that correct or", "i know nothing of that", "mr gauld are you aware of that issue at all mr gauld is a new employee and actually we're kind of all going through this together", "there's many issues that we're discovering", "anytime you come across something like that if you would email that to me", "yeah i just didn't know if this was if this was talked about or anything like that because i know that i was actually standing with brian whenever because i was concerned about the doors being blocked open and the reason why there was nothing sucking all the air up from all the people", "i mean it was during the end of the summer whenever the volleyball team and that were playing and you know so it was very hot in there", "so the gym is not air conditioned correct it is not hasn't that been going on for years brian yeah", "from my understanding there there's air handlers in the gym", "there's units up there", "i don't know the reason they're not functional right now but that's been a problem", "they're not functional or you're just i'm not sure", "there it appears there's air handlers up there i think for years and this is prior to me getting here they haven't been working and it may be a situation where for whatever reason but i believe they're there", "they look like they're there", "they're there and that's why i was wondering", "are we sure they're not heaters opposed to being cooling during the summer there is no air conditioning in the gyms", "right i'm not sure if they're heaters", "okay", "but that's something obviously we can look at", "yeah i didn't think this was something new", "that's why i just questioned it", "well thank you for bringing that up then", "and what mr gauld put down his list of many things", "moving along we have the auditorium overhead house lights fixtures and controller i guess last year we at the end of the last year we bought some leds and started putting them in the auditorium in order to make the longevity of the lights last longer", "and there's been some issues as far as the dimming capability of the existing system", "but that is just once again it's something else that doesn't have to be replaced right away but it's something that in the near future we may wanna look at", "the classroom windows are original in that building", "so a lot of them leak", "they're i'm sure they're thermal pane for that matter but that is something that we need to look at", "the swimming pool scoreboard it malfunctioned during the season this year", "and as it currently is being used it does not give score but they have an interface box that takes a digital signal to an analog signal and they've been having problems with it", "so that is something we may wanna look at", "the boosters in the swim club actually have both have made a commitment to contribute money to it", "i think we got seven hundred and fifty from the booster group which is a very cash tight group just like all the booster groups are", "and i think it was one thousand five hundred from the swim club", "so that was a noble effort on their part to try to help us resolve that problem", "there's some issues with the outdoor light poles", "if you drive through the parking lot you'll see some of them are most of them have surface rust on them around the bottom of the poles as well as there's some upgrading that needs to be taking place on some of the pole lights", "once again it's not something that's to be done right away but it's something that we need to look at in the future", "also back to the swimming pool there's a swimming pool hot water system and monitoring devices", "the season we lost the heater for the swimming pool for twelve days", "so those athletes in the dead in the middle of their season could not swim in their own pool and actually had a home meet at cannon mac which they won but just something that something we need to take a look at", "should we plan on keeping meets over there well actually it was because of the heat", "it's actually a wonderful facility they have there", "so before we move on to like the middleschool and mcmurtry's anybody have any questions about those particular items well we see all of these items on the estimate for the capital expenditure budget tom in your finance meetings", "well you know i guess that would bring up where i'm sitting here listening and the people that this is directed at aren't here anymore but we have gone every budget season", "we've said what capital expenditures do we have we did walk throughs a couple of years", "most of this stuff should have been on that list", "when we took out the loan for pe we could have taken out more money addressed a whole heck of a lot of this stuff", "yeah", "so to me it's very disturbing that we didn't get the appropriate information we should have", "some of it i agree with you", "i agree with you totally", "some of it for example talk about the high school field turf", "we knew it was coming out of warranty and every year we were given information that let's stretch it out one more year", "we think we can do this", "they hired a new machine to come up and comb the synthetic grass", "so i think some of these things have been coming and because we were frugal we kept pushing stuff off", "but then again some of the stuff that's being done", "does nobody look up and see mortar coming out of a building exactly exactly", "i mean really i think that's inexcusable", "it wasn't on our walkthroughs before either", "it wasn't there i don't recall there's other things on here but that's a whole nother point", "getting back to your question", "yes i guess again i'll say that when we get into budget i think we should have a bit of a plan", "like we've been saying that so much has to be the next couple of years so we can see what do we need to do is there things that we need to address sooner than later is this something since the market's still acceptable we'll take out a bond", "we haven't completed our last bond issue", "maybe there's we can modify the the terms of that get some more money to address some of these", "i think that we have some options to discuss over the next month or two for things that we do have coming up and that maybe we can have a valid list of things in timeframe that we need to do this", "the issue with mcmurray", "that's why we did do the phasing plan and the issue with the safety we did a phasing plan", "these are kind of like things around the district and two things have to happen to get cost estimates but also to identify a priority with this particular list", "and i think for example the swimming the hot water system that was a recent", "i mean it may have been on its last leg but it recently became you know unfunctional so we aren't going to have those every year", "that's right", "as we continue to see in our capital reserve fund that we can address some of these up to a certain point but there's other than these when we're talking millions of dollars already we're up over two million just between mcmurray and the other items that the same", "so you know we've got some money there and we haven't even gotten into crossing some of these that are the phone system's probably gonna pop up as a priority also", "so there's things that we need to phase and to do some planning because i'm anticipating the budget's gonna be very tight again this year", "it's not like the state's gonna come up with a whole bunch of money they're gonna give to us this year", "just going through this building security analysis we're talking with some big bucks in here", "i'm looking at this for the first time", "this is an expensive repair", "and that some of those items that's why some of those items there they're not in", "that's considered like a longer distance of phase too", "i mean the things that we have planned was the items that i gave the board a couple of weeks ago", "you're right", "okay", "i think what disturbs me about it you know i didn't mean to attack oh there it is", "about the field what what disturbs me about the field is just that being a new board member i didn't realize how needy our turf was at the high school", "and i guess knowing how much money you put into the pv field i'm sorry", "i don't know if you all realize to help me the high school field was before money was put into the pv field", "i wasn't on the board then", "so we talked about for at least two years yes", "we talked about we knew it needed help", "but i don't think any of us expected it to be on this list", "i mean we didn't know really where this was all gonna end up this quickly", "would have been nice to get another couple years out of it", "i didn't mean to jump on you but i was like okay then why don't we do the high school field before we did the bb deal that's but i wasn't on the board then so", "okay move along to the middle school", "there's a storm water drainage issue on the back of it", "mr france would you comment on that a little bit yeah that was pointed out to a greer and i when we were here last week that that was an issue over it's between the two wings of the building", "if you're familiar with the back of the building next to the gymnasium wing and next to the center classroom wing there's an open courtyard area there where the wings stick out and it's facing the back hillside here", "in that area there's just looking at it with snow on the ground", "you can see high and low spots in those areas", "it looks like just a process of erosion and settlement since the building was built", "it's just created these ponding areas where water's just laying on the ground surface and saturating the ground", "i think with some minor topsoil grading there is a yard drain in that area that we can manipulate that soil to get it to flow and drain out of there", "it's really that simple", "so it might be an easy fixing", "yes that's nice", "it doesn't cost anything", "okay and then the mcmurray one when we actually went into detail already on", "pleasant valley there's some unit vent wiring to network", "last summer we put some unit vent ventilators", "we replaced some existing unit ventilators and they needed to be replaced", "they were worn out and the control wiring was never completed", "so the units are in there and they're not on the inhouse network system as far as monitoring them and temperature control", "so that is something that needs to be addressed", "and that was actually phase one as far as putting the units in", "there's a phase two where there's more units that need to be replaced", "so basically eighty of the units up there have been changed out there's twenty more to go", "so that that's kind of a substantial little project that has to take place up at pleasant valley", "bower hill has a roof cable leak", "when they put the addition on bower hill apparently there's water that comes from the roof cable that actually comes back into the building", "and once again with a water issue it's something you wanna address as soon as possible", "otherwise it just creates more and more problems down the road", "the district administration building we have a rooftop air conditioning unit that mr mcmurray probably saw it put on", "how many years is this unit been on that thing was like a jet engine for so long", "a couple of years ago it wasn't replaced a couple of years ago", "no we talked about or it was talked about a couple of years ago but it was never replaced", "well there was talk about putting the enclosures on it", "and a lot of other options so yeah", "we were talking about that when i was here in two thousand and eight", "we've been talking about it every year about the noise that's in the building", "yeah yeah", "and we already talked about the turf on the field the bus garage right now they're using a portable pressure washer that's caused a somewhat a cumbersome process where they have to fill it with fuel oil and drag it around", "and there was a suggestion made made to have a stationary one that is gas natural gas and it's mounted to the wall instead of being dragged around and beat up", "once again that's just something that is an item that might be a possibility", "it's not something we're gonna move forward on", "there's possibly the ability of additional seating on the visitor side of the football stadium", "and then districtwide which should go to the top of the list is the district phone system which is at the current time maybe vince will elaborate a little bit on that as far as our priorities with the phone system", "i'm actually investigating the district phone system", "i think there's a few options out there", "we're just learning now as to some of the alternatives to the current system that we have where the three buildings here the middle school district office and the buildings across the street are all on the same system where we may have to just expand our current system to include the high school pleasant valley and boulware hill", "and we can all be on a centralized phone system", "and then we've also had some discussions with the utility companies in the area from service providers as to what our best options are", "we have been experiencing some outages due to the underlying underground lines in front of the high school", "and we wanna go away from that and do something that is more permanent looking at files maybe some use of the internet to change the phone system to a more acceptable use accessible system", "okay", "will we have options on that for budget meetings coming up i'm working with it", "and i think i had a discussion with matt", "i wanted to bring one of the engineers and see what we have and what is our best way to go", "some of the discussions with the utility companies in the area have been very productive", "matter of fact i got a return call today and i was just playing phone tag with them", "that things do look good for the district in us", "do you know if they laid files cable on that side of town this year cause i know on our side of town they were laying in everywhere on the venetia side last summer", "from what i understand i think iowa sydney is in the area where the high school is but it was not accessible yet to large companies or large entities", "i don't know if that has changed", "that may have been the phone call i got today", "if they're smart it's just changed", "i mean i can figure it out", "i thought you mentioned the meeting that we had with the vice president of verizon last week yeah", "i mean that is who we're talking to", "we're talking to verizon about the files to try and get that service provided to the high school and pv elementary", "so we won't have experience those outages", "but just one thing to kind of just expand on what was said by mr balsic", "we did have meeting with the vicepresident of verizon and technically the way we bid our phone services they are not our provider", "we are provided through erc link and where we get verizon services", "now why wouldn't we go directly to verizon because we're able to bid it and it's at a much cheaper cost but verizon is recognizing that a school particularly like our some of our school buildings when we lose phone service which was lost in many places throughout the district that this creates huge issues for us", "so they're working with us directly to try to resolve that and make bias available some other new tech techniques", "and one of the big issues is are we gonna try to expand on the present system are we gonna look to put in a whole new system and that's where we're gonna be bringing some cost estimates to the board", "i'm going to comment on this too", "i think of all the safety issues we've discussed here tonight i think the phone system is the biggest safety issue", "when the power went out to the high school my understanding is the administrators couldn't even communicate with one another", "they couldn't communicate with the teachers in the building", "i was under the understanding that they had like walkie talkies and they do", "and they were using them", "they were not working properly from what i understand maybe i'm misunderstand", "but the point is i would just like to agree with mr don levy that of all the things on this attachment one the district phone system ought to jump to the top", "that's a good point", "thank you", "i guess along with that i'd throw out the generators", "was that a maintenance issue or do we need to upgrade the generating system for the emergencies in the buildings that was actually a maintenance issue there", "what took place there was a great misunderstanding where people thought that the generator came on and then it ran out of gas", "that's what my students came home and told me my kids", "what actually took place was they lost the power", "the power came back on in what they call a singlephase condition", "so you have three phases feeding your building", "only one came back and by the good wit of our maintenance staff they went and turned the power off", "otherwise your threephase equipment would have burned up and would have caused quite a bit of damage you know a lot more expense", "so what they did find was the generator did not start", "the maintenance department director ron gauld had two companies come out that day for the generator", "the first one came out and said that he troubleshot it down to a start board that roughly would be around two thousand", "and ron had another guy come in and he troubleshot it further and said yeah it was a start board but there actually was a rodent that actually lived in it", "and actually they have a picture of it", "i actually saw it", "is that true i heard that story it's absolutely true", "i actually went there and saw the control cabinet stuff filled with nuts and grass and so to answer your question right now from my understanding mr gauld has gone ahead and instilling instilling some of his maintenance procedures", "so now the staff is gonna abide by the way he did the generators at duquesne university where they're gonna be testing them more often", "ron would you like to give us an explanation of how you plan on testing those yeah this was a that was a difficult day last tuesday when we had a major power failure utility lines down and the generator did not start", "what we found as mr deleon said we had two generator mechanics come in", "i didn't wanna spend two thousand on a maybe i called another friend of mine who has proprietary rights to those generators", "he came from mon valley hospital dropped everything for me", "and he got up there and he tore into it and looked at it from a different perspective than the first technician", "he pulled off covers and there was a woven inside of the control board was a nest", "and we don't know what type of rodent it was", "i suspect somebody that like walnuts because the walnuts were all throughout the unit", "chewed that squirrel or rodent or a chipmunk chewed through the start wire", "of all wires he got lucky and he picked the right one", "so it was the perfect storm", "but as mr dunley just said i've instituted today i met with my staff there are new procedures in place", "they will operate the generators", "the first of the month physically will be in place", "they will go ahead", "i'm gonna train an individual starting wednesday morning", "and he is gonna go to all the units the first week of the month", "the other weeks they are on remote starters exerciser clocks", "that's fine but at least once a month if not more they will be physically looked at", "it's just like your car", "you'll check the oil you'll check the battery you'll check the antifreeze you'll check the belts and you'll start it so that we can have a higher degree of response and assurability that these are gonna work", "so you know i apologize for that", "not operational but we're going through some learning pains", "i'm learning what my staff has the capabilities of doing and what they don't have", "and ironically i had a generator contractor in my office at ten o'clock that morning talking about a potential contract maintenance", "and this happened", "just the one generator would that do both pleasant valley and the high school yes", "that's the design of somebody previous before me", "are all the generators in all the buildings sized appropriately we've had at high school for a long it's been several years since the renovation", "and there's been changes with what's being powered", "i mean right now we're very contingent on that technology", "are these things all sized practically or do we need to look at those well a good question", "because when those were sized to high school ten years ago you i'm sure you didn't have the technology that you had in the building but again emergency generator has one function in a building of this nature and institution", "it's designed to operate start and provide life safety exit signs lights for people to move and to congregate and possibly leave", "it's not designed to operate classes and continue you know business as usual", "so the answer to your question i haven't completely you know gone through that", "i am there are not deficiencies", "there are issues that were not life safety issues when they were designed years ago that now i wanna bring it up to grade", "for instance some emergency lighting in classrooms without windows", "i'm working on that to ensure that that happens", "mrs paddock and me have been in constant conversation about how we're gonna do that at the high school", "when you have interior rooms in the basement where there are no windows", "so i wanna see a light in every one of those rooms and we can do that", "we can do that and make that happen in the foreseeable future", "but we do have to have a generator start", "that's where i'm starting at first at", "it seems like there's along with and you've probably already done it is looking at some of the emergency procedures that need to be looked at and revised if necessary", "absolutely absolutely", "i had a parent call me and ask me if it wouldn't be appropriate at this point in time until something gets done if you just don't keep a now granted he could get up and walk away but a wallmounted flashlight charged in every classroom", "so at least you got a flashlight", "and we're gonna do that", "that's one of the things that we're gonna do too", "and police and fire were on hand and they have portable generators", "so they were getting lights into the buildings and things you know under the condition that we were under things went fairly well understanding that it was a difficult situation", "staff did well kids did well", "and we actually got through most of the day which was kind of a goal", "you know this occurred one thousand and thirty in the morning and we had concerns about dismissing one thousand five hundred students from the building that early in the day", "so we worked to try our best to try to keep things as operational as we could", "and as we solved one problem another one turned up", "so it is also gonna give us an opportunity to revisit a lot of our procedures", "mr mcmurry the generator fleet is a good fleet", "it just needs to be fine tuned and so does the staff that operates it", "that's fine but it had been so long in all of them", "it's always good to look at and i'm sure that's on your list of things to make sure", "and that just falls in with what our prior discussion if there's anything that we need to have for capital if we do need to upgrade some generators it would be good to at least have that on the list to be looked at", "thank you mr rob thank you", "thank you", "okay jumping through here quick", "for the next step what may occur and when basically all of these items we've talked about and other ones that may come up will all be brought forward in the budget process", "i'd like to go up to the first item where we had an objective", "review the current needs of the school district facilities", "this review is not addressing routine maintenance but rather a large district capital projects", "that's open for discussion", "if you have anything that you think we wanna go into as far as the capital expenditure since we are gonna be calling into the budget process now would be a good time to bring it forward", "i mean regular items it's not routine maintenance but year to year i can think off the top of my head if we're looking at like having to replace a school bus and all that kind of stuff that's gonna come up in the general capital improvement budget right yes mhm", "as a matter of fact it was on the list", "it was on the list yeah", "a truck we talked about a truck a box delivery truck we talked about school buses sorry", "and the dump truck no that's okay", "the way they were set up there i we had them and then we missed reading", "will he be working with as chair of course", "and then bring that information to the board with mr gauld especially in this next month because as mr mcmurray points out and mr balsic i'm sure you'll be involved in it too", "now's the time for us to know about whatever we need to know about so we can get it into the budget process", "will you be working on that and", "yes we will", "and i think what we'll be working on is putting a priority to this list which i think the board has pretty clearly indicated and then putting some numbers with that so that we can plan accordingly", "thank you", "if there's no other questions i'd like to open up for public comment", "some people patiently waiting through the whole meeting", "name and address thank you my name and address name and address please", "okay i'm lisa regal one hundred keystone court in venetia", "i am here speaking only as a parent and a community member no other role", "i just wanna say there is kind of a feeling in the community", "there's a little bit of a rumor going around that there is a half a million dollar expenditure on athletics going on and that's partially why the rumor got me here but i'm also here because i do want you to plan ahead", "there's an awful lot of as you've received tonight problems that are gonna affect our kids", "and i want you to think ahead and plan as mr mcmurray said i appreciated that plan for the future", "and i know that stating the obvious but i just i just thought i'd say it now", "so thank you", "thank you", "anyone else okay", "well i picked up can i interject one other thing is i know that the administration has met with the township planning group and going along with that", "so i think as we move along with that there may be issues coming out of that that may impact what we need in our planning", "is that something you have on i think so yes", "okay", "i've just heard some of the things that have been thrown out and it could seriously severely impact what what are plan is", "well when we met with vince and i went over and we met with the township and the planners community plan the long range planning group that they have", "and of course one of the questions that they have for us is continued population growth in terms of not only residents but also student populations will we need to expand on facilities will we need to build a new facility so those are questions that also as the future years come the district will have to consider", "well one thing to always throw out there and maybe it was brought up is that when a lot of the long range planning and if we did have to do another building where would that building actually be there isn't a lot of space where we could actually go in and buy thirty acres somewhere right now", "so in the planning with that group there needs to be consideration is the expansion is all towards venetia area", "right", "there needs to be an area possibly identified where a school could actually be without having to go through but would we have to build in venitia we have landed elm grove", "that we talked about two years ago potentially building on elm grove well but if the growth is all on the other side of the township", "and fortunately we have buses but you know is it property we own or property that we have to go buy that now people know we need it the price is gonna go up", "exactly and there's other alternatives but none of them are easy", "we also talked about how to get in and out of elm grove too like how that's all situated", "we may have to look at well that's gonna be one of the big issues is where do we actually put the thing", "look at our high school now", "it's you know getting in and out and all that congestion and kind of", "excuse me tom being on that committee that steering committee some of the folks in the audience were with us the other day when we sat through the three days in process", "and i know my group was in fact looking at that possibly as a joint share between the township and the school district purchasing a piece of property that because according to the plan they're gonna need about one hundred and ten extra acres in parks if the plan grows out for the two thousand students and the ten thousand additional people in the community", "so they're looking at it also from purchasing a large track of land for additional parks in the community", "my group and i brought that up in the venitia area also of looking at possibly getting with the township looking at a piece of property and joining with them to putting it like in one area", "and the only area that is really for that size of a property would be down there along bebop", "not the part that's over top of the mine well welcome into peters township", "i was gonna say where is it that area if we're talking about the same one that's not real well i know but whenever that's the only game in town as far as that size property that's the problem with it", "so but that is an issue that we've been and that's one of the issues i had brought up to to the board about why we have to meet with the council because there are issues that they're trying to seed on the future that is gonna affect us in so many ways", "and like i said if they're planning two thousand additional students in the next ten to fifteen years", "we're in this planning committee meeting right that includes everybody right in the meeting you have counsel there and", "right", "well i mean it's just not a matter of building another elementary school", "what happens when those kids get to the high school that can't support what we have now exactly", "well that's what i said", "this is projecting into the future", "or mcmurray elementary", "bower hill or pleasant valley", "i mean all of these those two can stay as they are but if you're gonna build another elementary school those kids have to go somewhere after third grade", "and now you're talking about four buildings", "that's when we just start adjusting again you know that's the problem", "but i mean like you said these are issues that are being looked at by some people not necessarily the overall township but you know we threw those figures and facts into it whenever they ask them what is projected if our growth kept going you know when we went to school here and it was four thousand people in the community", "now there's almost twenty three thousand", "so there's a big difference just in those years but it didn't go up ten thousand in ten years", "it went up you know four or 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-{"audio_document_id": "Practici1953.flac", "identifier": "Practici1953", "text_document_id": "Practici1953.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [6213, 11683, 4636, 3624, 1250, 2830, 1990, 3813, 10073, 2350, 2010, 980, 3073, 5010, 2793, 5990, 7940, 2010, 3950, 3810, 900, 2040, 6310, 7573, 3990, 3143, 5690, 8360, 1400, 5790, 2460, 2833, 2373, 7110, 7893, 6583, 5703, 4587, 10410, 3493, 5469, 3330, 8110, 5923, 4053, 7140, 2573, 3150, 3600, 2378, 3806, 5000, 7990, 4110, 7480, 5270, 5460, 12933, 10404, 1410, 833, 1327, 3290, 2480, 1340, 9600, 2440, 1843, 4063, 5883, 7180, 3577, 2603, 8223, 3033, 4263, 4040, 2120, 5413, 2100, 2620, 3230, 6863, 3830, 3910, 4583, 3540, 5612, 9231, 5533, 3980, 4660, 3570, 4410, 5790, 4960, 22130, 1953, 3010, 2483, 2700, 5640, 1987, 3751, 1570, 1590, 3550, 3976, 1874, 3480, 873, 5023, 2250, 4000, 7260, 3650, 5330, 3390, 2473, 4390, 2696, 2304, 2380, 5120, 2610, 2100, 1850, 2940, 1590, 8688, 4742, 4403, 1583, 1823, 5460, 13460, 1800, 1800, 2423, 1923, 3963, 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good english", "there's always been this rich variety of individual demands but nowadays almost every adult agrees on one basic goal for all students", "schools are to turn out good citizens", "yes good citizens", "that's right", "absolutely this country always needs good citizens", "teaching students subject matter in democratic situations that develop better citizens", "is being done more and more in alert school system", "this school happens to be in michigan but it could be any other school anywhere", "any school where parents and teachers are concerned about how and what their children learn to prepare them for citizenship", "let's ask some questions", "there arthur davis not his real name but it'll do", "teaches american history been doing it for years", "let's talk to him", "excuse me mr davis", "we've heard fine reports about this school and about the good things that you and your students have been doing", "can you tell us something about how and why you came to use your present method of teaching well that's pretty big order", "i might tell you how i first became interested in trying it out", "its fairly typical of our other teachers experiences", "our staff for some time had been aware of the limitations of its teaching methods", "through considerable reading committee work discussion experimenting and in meetings with parents and seven groups", "we tried to find the answer", "the authoritarian method with the teacher dominating we felt wasn't the answer", "letting the students do as they pleased", "the laissezfaire method also was inadequate", "neither method produced the best citizen", "we discovered as others have that the answer sprang from the very nature of our democratic society", "in essence it's to use teaching methods which will produce better citizens while teaching subject matter", "teaching methods which develop and draw upon the knowledge skills and attitudes of all the students", "our first problem was to find a workable definition of the characteristics of good citizenship", "the detroit citizenship study gave us one of the best answers", "but what interests us is how do you develop qualities through a regular school program well suppose we take last year's class", "no group is identical of course but it was an average group", "davis felt the familiar excitement that every teacher feel at the start of a new term", "following my preplanned rather closely", "the first few days were spent on orientation getting to know each other's names background and hobbies", "learning is best accomplished among friendly youngsters acquainted with each other", "we talked a little about what we learned in other social studies classes", "and took several tests to determine how much knowledge of american history the students already had", "and what their interests and attitudes where", "there was the usual number of personal problems", "that with the democratic method could be adjusted", "helen sky", "hal domineering and and ignoring others rights", "and harold coren harold always running away from facts", "harold's attitude for instance was apparent when the class was choosing among various ways by which the class could be conducted", "authoritarian laissezfaire or democratic", "so how can we run a class democratically everyone for themselves they discussed it from every conceivable angle", "then they voted against the autocratic method with the teacher dominating", "against the laissezfaire method with the students doing just about what they pleased", "and they settled for the democratic pattern shared responsibility mutual respect with the teacher as a resource a consultant and the guide to better learning", "hey what do you think about what oh i'm not sure do you think we learned as much by letting us kids run the class oh we're not going to run it by ourselves", "mr davis is going to help", "well i don't know", "i sort of like what he said", "getting everybody's ideas and talk over what we want to do", "i think it's fair and i think we'll learn more", "come on let's go", "they've begun to see some of the possibilities of working together democratically share responsibility and set up goals for the year", "choose topics to study", "to find answers to problems", "to think critically share and discuss findings", "and finally evaluate their accomplishments and discuss together ways of improvement", "harold had been against trying out the new method but he was popular enough to be elected class chairman", "shared responsibility continue with the election of a secretary", "the chairman lead the discussion and set up goals", "of course i had helped my suggestion now and then and mostly the steps were to read and think individually", "then for each student to make his own list of goals", "next their ideas were combined and resigned in small groups", "finally the whole class and i together for discussion", "the outcome was this", "from the study of american history they wanted to achieve the following goals", "to become a better citizen", "to learn how to read and write better", "to understand our american way of life", "to learn own how to solve problem to understand the united states as a major power in the world today", "parents continued to keep in touch with what was happening", "and occasionally one would be more impatient than the others", "isn't it all this is a waste of time after all your job is to teach american history", "orientation really doesn't waste time is to cory", "you'll find these students interested in learning because they had a part in making the decisions", "ok but when you get around to studying history well our next steps were what you would probably call studying history", "we've selected our first topic for study in the same way as we had established our goals", "first i presented background material and ideas", "then individually they read and did some thinking", "then discuss topics in small groups", "finally we arrived at a consensus through class discussion", "we chose as our first general topic what democracy means to me", "out of our discussion on the main topic emerged several problems", "how did the democracy to get started and develop how important is democracy in the world today how does the democracy differ from other forms of government what contributions have the outstanding leaders made to democracy how can democracy be improved in our city each student voted for the problem he wanted to work on", "four problem groups were formed", "and the chairman and record are selected in each", "the groups began by filling in the work plans", "i worked closely with each group", "this step was a test as to whether the groups could work democratically", "sometimes they got into trouble", "i think i'd like to preview those film strips on the constitution", "no i want to do that", "i know how to work the projector", "now wait a minute why can't you both do it", "jane owns about filmstrips and al you're good with a projector", "that sounds like a good way to do it", "yeah how about it al well i guess you're right", "i'll try it", "the influence of the class gradually was causing al to respect others", "a second group was doing as well", "they'd seen the importance of individual responsibility", "now who'd going to report on jefferson oh helen you took at trip last summer", "how about it i'm not sure i could do it", "oh sure you can you could use your snapshots and i'll give you a hand with it", "helen's selfconfidence was being bolstered", "in time she'd make a fuller contribution", "the third group however was tussling with our local skeptic", "mr davis we're not getting any place", "well what seems to be the trouble", "i can't seem to get started", "in spite of what harold cory has to say we still think we have some democracy in this town", "no we haven't we just think we have", "all politicians are crooked", "everything's fix", "what are your facts harold we just know that's all", "everybody know it", "hey do you have any facts to prove your point we'll never get any place this way", "why don't you give us an assignment mr davis now just a minute folks", "faith says our community is democrat harold says it isn't", "now they both can't be right", "how can we find the truth", "look we talk about what democracy man in orientation", "now let's talk with people around town here and see what they think too small we know it and discuss it again i think we all know for sure what we're talking about a very good idea", "how about the rest of you so we doing", "yes that's a good idea", "why don't we go to mister mayor for first thing", "they were learning a basic lesson", "democracy doesn't operate by itself in a vacuum", "critical thinking based upon facts", "is very important and so they work they struggled they plan and they grew", "each group was now engrossed in its problems students found the library a valuable source for needed information outsiders may have been surprised at their eagerness", "but for teachers using this method", "it's a familiar and rewarding result local citizens had to think twice when asked to compare democracy with other forms of government the communities mayor and city manager were interviewed by one of our groups", "harold was introduced to an exciting new world of facts while each individual talent found a way to contribute each group", "organized its growing mass of information our class had become a team", "and every student was the better for it", "the projects were nearly complete", "at last each group made its report", "helen thank you", "this is station w", "usa today we have a most unusual program featuring early leaders of our democracy the year seventeen eighty seven our speakers george washington", "thomas jefferson", "alexander hamilton", "the topic for a discussion is the need for a federal constitution", "mr washington will present his view as first", "madam chairman fellow countryman the reasons for a federal constitution", "are social economic military and political", "i should discuss these one of the time", "our group worked on the problem", "how did democracy get started in the south", "our report is built around a series of filmstrips and chapter three in our textbook", "james caviler introduced first illustratively discussion", "are all around on our projector", "our group has studied the problem", "how can democracy be improved in our city", "we couldn't all agree to decided to give individual report and to invite two leading citizens who could talk with us this is why", "and this is emerson this is emerson chairman of the league of women voters who suggest how young people and adults can work together to improve democracy in our city", "is the reason", "mr chairman and members of the client", "our organization is concerned with this matter", "we're glad that you are discussing it in class", "because you see we need citizens who not only talk about democracy but who are willing to work to improve it", "carol corey will report when he found out from the mayor here", "thank you", "and first i've got to admit i thought i knew all the answers to this problem then we visited the mayor the mayor changed my mind about a lot of things he had solutions to several problems they were", "harold spa there should have heard that he wanted harold to learn the facts", "class discussion following each of the reports they deal some important inclusion interest was greater facts were learned better and remembered longer because they were related to very real everyday problems", "this was also clearly shown through various kinds of evaluations by the entire class on worksheet by each group by taking several kinds of achievement tests and through teacher pupil conferences between myself and each student", "and now i've just been looking over your progress sheet", "tell me why didn't you evaluate yourself on respecting rights of others", "how do i rate myself on that i never thought about it much", "so i got in this class", "i don't know what to do about it anyway", "i know you already have done something about it", "i have certainly you recognize that you have this problem", "that's the first step towards improvement", "well i have listened to people without", "interrupting them good", "what else could i do in conferences like this one i could gauge the extent to which my students were improving gradually in the give and take of the class sessions have had begun to develop more respect for the rights of others", "helen gain self confidence and became a responsible member of the group arrow in making skillful use of information was reaching towards maturity in this class some grow a great deal some grow a little", "but all gain something from their experience", "a last question that today this", "can other subjects be taught this way", "they certainly can and many are", "actually i haven't been talking just about american history", "i've described democratic method of teaching which can be used to varying degrees by any teacher on any grade level in any subject", "for example here is a third grade on a field trip with say a plan to get first hand information about their questions in science here is a sixth grade class sharing their findings as to how fractions are used in their home there is a latin student and his teacher evaluating his progress through a teacher student interview", "it's true there are easier ways to teach", "but i know of no more effective way to help our students learn not only to learn more facts", "but to learn how to put democracy", "into practice these days parents and teachers alike realize it must be their serious concern to help our young people become better citizens", "for democracy is not only an effective use of facts but a dynamic way of people living and working together americas you", "our next generation must be prepared to help build their future of life will step in that direction is practicing 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agenda", "so mary we can start with you", "come on up and join us", "thank you jerry before we begin i talked to mark fossil at the just this afternoon at the planning yeah", "commission and just about process and everything and he requested actually that we not make final decisions as to appointees tonight and he's actually asking that that new members of the planning commission not be seated until i think what was it it was the june", "the count now either the 5th or the 19th or the 5th or 19th meeting because they've got important business at the next meeting", "he wants to take care of that with the current board because he wants to devote an entire meeting to orientation of the new members", "okay so we'll know what date he wants so was that yeah i believe he's planning and we have others that can't make it tonight on attending tonight so", "for interviews who applied before the may 3rd deadline but can't be here tonight right okay", "you can make a decision to make an appointment and ask that whoever you appoint just not attended until so that your decision has been made", "yeah and then and we are we did ask about increasing it to seven and he wants to give it at five for now but that doesn't mean for the next year", "they want to evaluate that", "is that right jeff and determine whether or not a couple months down the road to increase it is that right i spoke to mark", "he said that he wanted to keep it at five so that the new members which are gonna be two and possibly three get a chance to get acclimated before they expand back to seven members", "okay all right", "great thank you", "mary hi", "tell us why you would like to serve", "well i have served on the planning commission before", "i served for six years on that commission and it was a very busy process and it was believe it or not more work than the select board", "reading the background information researching and i think that the although i haven't attended the meetings i did attend the meetings before i was on the planning commission just to get a sense of how things are going and i think i would bring back some information to the planning commission", "i really have a good attendance record at those things and i do my homework", "excellent", "and one quick question because i know you'll know the answer to this", "is there any sort of state statute that says as a lister you can't serve on the planning committee there is none", "okay thank you", "other questions i wrote down your questions from the last time if you forgot well you answered one of the ones that i had was do you know what the level of commitment was and obviously because you've served on it before then you also answered it in your first when you did your intro so", "okay", "yeah mine from last time yeah town plan it was about the town plan and where we're at with zoning and the town plan", "i helped formulate the last town plan", "i wasn't on the original town plan formulation but i worked very hard", "transportation and energy were my two areas and a lot has changed in both of those areas in the addition of solar panels the addition of wind and i think another technology that should be looked at and invited into the town is water energy", "so as it relates to transportation i think the issue of the bridge has come and gone", "but as we heard at i believe it was the last select board meeting three weeks ago there's transportation issues are always in the forefront and alternative energy sources can assist with transportation costs and needs and so on", "and i think that that's something that does need to be looked at in more detail", "and what happens with a town plan is a town plan is written and then the zoning comes into sync and then there's a new town plan and this comes into sync and both of those are always changing", "everything is in a fluid state", "although they're constant for a little while the town plan can be renewed and i think the legislature needs to make the town plan a 10year event", "i believe that when we paired down the last town plan we brought it into measurable goals a reasonable set of criteria for the town to follow and i think the legislature really needs to take a look at that", "when they combine the ccrpcm the metropolitan planning organization that's the board that looked at everybody's town plans to say well how's feel about it and how does your neighboring community feel about it and how does it fit within the community i think that because that board has been paired down and combined i think the legislature needs to make some action about making it a 10year town plan", "and that way you don't have a oh hurry up we gotta renew it hurry up we gotta renew it because once you have right", "a good town plan set forth it should be the plan that is for your future goals", "right", "other questions i want to ask the question about developing", "are you a developer go ahead", "i'm not a developer but i am a private landowner and i feel that private land owners who have paid a share of taxes on their property shouldn't necessarily be oh boy i can develop everything that it's one acre because the land itself tells you whether or not you can develop it", "and if you look at the not too recent history a lot of farmers sold off chunks of land and i know that this was poopooed at one point on the planning commission with some folks who were on that board that farmers had sold off a phase chunk of land and left the reserve of the land in the background", "well if you take a look at smart planning leaving a large reserve of land in the background is smart for watershed for deer yard for recreation and perhaps making little chick let lots in the front and reserving the back is the more reasonable way to approach development", "and i think the lay of the land the flood plain pretty much dictates what richmond can and can't do with the property that's here", "the slopes decide a lot of things", "right", "other questions taylor do you remember your question i didn't ask any questions", "oh you didn't go ahead", "give me a shot i have no questions", "okay", "that's it", "all right thank you mary", "yeah didn't you want to know if i have any questions for you do you have questions for us well i think as it relates to the document i was distressed that", "chris had what he had to say about the document", "i think that an act of democracy is defeating something that you don't like", "i think it's not an act anything other than that but i do think that this document is a bit lofty and i do believe that this document needs to be written by the town of richmond residents which is not to be written so that you know if you read that document and saw the zoning districts you would ask yourself wow this is a you know huge community that you're looking at if you read that document and try to place it somewhere it's almost as if it was for some community in connecticut", "it's not for vermont", "you read that document and you go through the board and that's not the language", "i know it has to be professional language which it would be if it came from the citizens on the board but it almost looks like every word on that document and in that document was written by a consultant", "i don't think it should look that way", "i don't think it should have that flavor", "i think it should reflect more of the citizens and the town", "and i do not believe the document as it was put forward the one that was defeated reflects that", "the select board can waive any one of those requirements they choose", "when someone comes in and says well i'd like this development passed and you have the ability to waive sidewalks", "they've been waived in development", "south union when it came through here i think phase two and three sidewalks were waived and now side you know you should have sidewalks", "you should encourage walking", "so i don't think something like that should be waived but the select board can waive any single or multiple items that are brought before you and say please waive this", "that's it for me", "okay all right thank you", "yeah thank you mary", "we have bruce debounty here with us", "sorry for the attire and the hat", "coming from a baseball game so", "no problem no problem", "replete with the sunglasses", "yeah the sun was pretty bright over there", "be back lit", "i know you might need to put those on", "yeah so tell us why you're interested in serving on the board", "well i grew up in vermont grew up in essex center lived in richmond now for twenty five years have had three different houses in richmond", "i think i would like to make rules that would allow my children to live in richmond and that's why i want to do it", "i think if we restrict too much it makes land a lot more valuable by restriction and younger people can't afford to live here", "i'm not in favor of huge growth of turning this into burlington but i do think that there's steady growth is healthy", "great thank you", "so you're aware of the time commitment i know i asked that because i am", "because it's such a huge and i think that's why so we have so many vacancies on so many committees because i think people don't realize what they're getting themselves into", "i am aware of the commitment", "i mean the document that the voters has voted down i read from front to back", "i do come to a lot of select board meetings", "i just think i volunteer a lot of time with youth sports", "my son is now in the seventh grade and i don't have as much opportunity to volunteer for cause he's playing for school teams and things like that and i have some time to do other than volunteering for coaching that i could give some time back to the town", "okay", "the development one do you have land that you're planning to build i have done some small projects in richmond", "at this time i don't have any going on", "i have some vacant property and i own my house is a 20acre parcel", "by the regs that there are now the only thing i would do is split off so my kids could have property for them when they want to build a house in richmond", "that's my only plan of doing anything in the town", "at the last meeting you and i had an exchange about a comment that i made and i hope that i made it clear that i wasn't criticizing the outcome of the vote or opposition to the vote but the process and that i felt that the public discussion had my opinion reached an unproductive stage", "but i just wanted to hear your thoughts about it and about the vote and how it went and is there anything that you would hope to do make happen differently if you were on the commission it's very typical of what happens", "i mean the planning commission went through many many meetings that people could go to and there's some people that go to those but the majority don't so it's always seemed like it's a firestorm in the last month before", "and that's i think that's what some of it happened was it started in a little firestorm there on front page forum and people were going back and forth about the zoning and i don't know if there's anything better that the planning commission could have done", "i think they tried to have tons of neighborhood meetings and to get the word out of what was going on is this people didn't attend to it", "i don't know what would work better", "i mean look at how many people are here tonight", "it's really hard to get that get public input until it's on the doorstep of a vote and i would love to brainstorm with them to see how we could with everybody to see how we could get more public so that we would know that you're doing the right thing by the majority", "unfortunately i don't have an answer to say how we do better", "well i mean you already thought about it though", "that's what i wanted to see", "yeah i don't have an answer either yeah", "i mean i don't think they did a bad job of it and of getting trying to get the word out there", "just it's hard to get people to give up their time to go to those meetings unfortunately right", "any questions well i'll do the town plan question but i was a little broad with it but just do you have thoughts on the town plan or where we're at with zoning relating to the town plan you know i don't know the town plan real well", "i'll be honest with you yeah", "i know what the document that was proposed pretty well", "yeah", "i think that there was things in that document that were a little bit overstepping the boundaries", "i don't agree with again i'm a big proponent of being able to have everybody needs a place to live and everybody needs a place to live that they can afford", "and when you put into a document that you have to have a front porch well you know unfortunately everybody can't afford a front porch and those types of things were what bothered me a lot of almost like a micromanagement thing you know almost telling people how there had to build what they have to build and i don't think we can do that to people", "i think people need to build what they can afford and you know simplify it make it so it's easy so if i hand anybody in this town a document and say if you follow these rules you can build a house they need to be able to read it", "you shouldn't have to have a lawyer to have to read town documents to cipher what they can do and not do on their property", "right", "okay questions do you have questions for us no i don't thank you for your taking the time with me", "thanks bruce thanks", "okay ernie hello hello", "okay we'll start the same question", "why are you interested in serving i really first became interested in it because i was asked to volunteer by several members of the community", "and to be honest i hadn't given it a lot of thought before that", "i have pretty much stayed on the sidelines of diligent town politics over the twenty two twenty three years i've been in town", "in general have been pretty satisfied with the way things have gone", "but in light of the blow up over these zoning ordinance last year and the divisiveness that that appeared to bring from certain entrenched camps shall i say to me it kind of begged for somebody coming in who didn't have a dog in the fight so to speak", "i don't own land in town other than the lot that my home is on", "i'm not a developer", "i worked for the department of environmental conservation so i've got a very good idea of a lot of the points that mary brought up that in many cases the development potential in town is limited by topography proximity to rivers things like that", "on the other hand there needs to be a very careful balance of the vested interests of existing land owners", "there needs to be a very careful planning process that richmond stays richmond", "it doesn't turn into south burlington or williston", "and i think that's important", "i kind of see richmond as being you know the first outpost on the frontier in many ways as you move up from burlington and you know to a large degree that's part of the unfortunate part of the vested interest is that because it is that that first really rural community land prices are going up and that drives that need to where you get to situations where people need to be able to subdivide to their kids because there's just not land available that somebody just starting out can buy", "it's great for somebody who's established and has a career and has you know good income and things like that", "but they're perfectly correct in the fact that it's very tough to get established in this town if you're a young starting out type of person", "so i think the overall whole planning process needs to kind of bring that more into balance", "i think that what was said here earlier was right", "it was too polarized", "the plan the zoning document reads like the code of federal regulations", "it's black and white with no room for any kind of wiggle room really unless you have to go through the entire variance process", "i think it needs to be a little bit more flexible a little bit more lenient in some of its approaches but how you do that and how you balance it maybe it's just a different way of looking at it and that's kind of what i hope would bring to the process", "great thank you", "and i'm deeply involved in planning and working", "yes i understand what the implications of the work there are", "am i that predictable she knows what we do at work", "yes ernie and i work on the same floor same floor different programs but pretty much every one hundred and fifty people work on the same floor so", "other questions i'll ask the same question i asked of the previous candidate", "in terms of the process and i appreciate the comments you already made about the last vote but what do you think we can do better next time around what would you like to what changes to the process would you like to make to makes things go smoother i think you need to in a way i think we need to harness the outrage that was generated over it and focus it to where i mean you're both correct", "the ultimate resolution and the ultimate solution is you get more people involved earlier in the process", "and you know unfortunately maybe we've gone a little bit too long to harness that and really be able to focus it and bring more people in", "but i firmly believe that the earlier you can get information out there and even to be honest i didn't pay a lot of attention to the developmental stage of the last ordinance", "i certainly paid a lot of attention when it came down to the vote time", "but off the top of my head i don't recall there being frequent updates as to what was going on", "i don't even know if front porch forum was in existence really in the infancy of that whole process", "but certainly that's grown", "there's a lot more people that are now subscribed to it", "so i think there's an opportunity now to be able to get some of these concepts out there and ideas out there hey we're looking at this hey we're looking at that seeking comment from the people and trying to get whatever kind of feel you can from the majority", "hopefully you know get a good sense of what the majority of town is looking for", "and it's got to be a compromise", "you can't go to one extreme you can't go to the other", "you've got to find that happy medium which is not an easy thing to do", "right", "other questions do you have questions for us no no no one", "shielding my eyes", "did you say have you served on any other town committees before i haven't no", "okay and you did say you're not developing any property no no", "okay that's it", "well thank you very good thank you", "so the process for all of you who are here now and who the people that were here last week we have had two last i mean last meeting two that interviewed at the last meeting three today and then we have one or two others who have put in their application but couldn't be here tonight", "one one other", "so my thought is that we will interview that person at the next meeting and then i think because mark you've sat through the interviews it would be great to get your input as well before a decision is made on filling those vacant seats on the commission", "so if you would be willing to do that", "great all right so at the next meeting on the 19th we will interview the other candidate and then will the decisions be made at that meeting or that's up to the select board when you want to appoint", "okay", "well i know i can't be at that meeting but i don't want to hold up decisionmaking but i also would like to be involved in decisionmaking", "so can i at least have a conversation with you so you know where i stand before and maybe you mark sure you could do that", "i mean if you wanted to put something in writing that i could", "and that's allowed for me to or you could tell me what your thoughts were and i could yeah we set up a conference call for you i'm in a meeting at that time so i won't be able to do that", "you can write you can send us a letter with your thoughts", "there's nothing wrong with that", "otherwise it's a public record but you could okay", "write a hundred memos to us if you want", "i otherwise you can tell them it's not happening yeah otherwise it would put yeah june 3rd would be the right and i know that you also have well you actually are thinking june 3rd just before", "well i'm not quite sure what our timeline is but i kind of like to get through we just went through a public meeting for the flood hazard overlaying the parking", "the folks that you know there's only three of us but we're all pretty familiar with that and trying to bring somebody new up to speed on that decisionmaking process in the final tweaks that are involved with that i'd just as soon get that taken care of with the staff that we have and unfortunately at that time lou will be finishing up ready to pass on this final version on to you", "he's intending unfortunately still to step down which would mean that we could bring in three new people all at the same time and do an introduction and start from scratch with a new topic and a new agenda and it would be much cleaner", "so that's gonna take at least one meeting and then a forum a public hearing but possibly two", "so we may not have a public hearing to pass on any information to you until the middle of june okay when we pass it on so two okay so", "for that one but there's no burden on your part", "all right so no earlier than june 3rd would we vote right okay", "that makes sense", "so then you can be part of the discussion it sounds like yes very good", "excellent", "thank you very much", "all right next on the agenda governance committee", "well we received two emails of interest one from fred barrett and one from john cart", "i'd put two postings on front porch forum", "haven't heard anything from anyone else", "the original proposal was to have five citizen voting members", "it's like four plus the chairperson", "or would taylor be the chairperson no it was it should have been five", "okay yeah", "that chairperson is intended to be a member of the committee yeah is the okay", "so you want to go back out and dig some more or what would the select board like to do it's taken us a month to get two members a month already", "so digging for another two weeks i don't know what it will do", "i think this is a nonissue for the town because they're not volunteering to serve on the committee to ax the listers", "so if they really wanted to do it they would all get on board", "in lieu of getting rid of the governance committee we could reduce it to three members and probably someone will pop up", "i'm thinking that that probably is a better option because i think the fact yeah", "that people don't show up doesn't mean they're not interested in it and i think that our zoning regulations were a good example of that and i think in the process they weren't showing up but at the end it didn't matter to them", "and so i think that if we can reduce it to three and i don't think we're looking to ax unless there's i think this came up and i also feel like if we have if there's i mean it's going to a vote so in the end it's presenting something", "we don't make that decision", "we're not gonna a recommendation can be made but it's not something that we can just put into place", "well yes and no", "i mean there's legislation out there that the governor i don't know if it's passed yet to be honest but that would allow the select board to make the decision to i mean it's not i don't think it's as black and white as it's going to a vote and we don't make the decision", "i mean this is a more complicated issue than put it slap together a committee and get a recommendation", "i mean at this point where we don't even we don't even have to vote on any i mean right there's not even a proposal to vote right", "the floor motion was to put a committee together to potentially make a recommendation", "right so at this point we don't even have there's nothing that we're reacting that we have to vote on", "yeah okay right right", "what i'm saying is the end result is if we had that committee put together if they made a recommendation if we accept that recommendation okay then we would have to", "we wouldn't just put that into place", "that would be right we would discuss it and make a decision right", "i don't know what we're talking about right now", "i guess my proposal is to lower the membership to three members of the public", "i will move to lower the membership of the governance committee to three members of the public", "that's it okay", "who will second second", "any discussion that seems like the best option at this point to you know to try to keep moving ahead but yeah okay", "i'll try to get us one more", "great", "all good aye", "aye aye", "any opposed the ayes have it", "appointment of paul hoff to the economic development committee", "there was one more opening", "so yeah it's a committee of eight so he's the eighth okay", "so yeah wasn't sure what we need to do to", "we have to vote yeah", "just a motion to appoint and a second and then vote okay", "so who is this guy lives in the village and i don't know was interested in what the economic development committee is doing and got in touch with heidi and me and to see if there was space and there's an opening for one more", "so it brings it it fills it out at eight", "so we started off with eight and somebody had dropped out so we have a vacancy", "so yeah i move to appoint paul hoff to the economic development committee", "is there a second i'll second", "any discussion all in favor are you gonna give a quick report on on what's going on with the economic development committee i'm just checking the agenda yeah", "i didn't", "i could should i do it during the reports time yeah yeah", "sorry okay any further discussion all in favor aye aye", "any opposed ayes have it", "policy discussion madam chair could we take eric sandbloom yes since he's here for his item thank you absolutely we can do that", "eric come on up", "absolutely the sun's gone down so you", "we're not torturing anymore so", "you have the air conditioner in", "it blows right on you", "oh", "all right i heard that at the last select board meeting our last invoice was discussed and i think actually bruce via kara gave me a call so i'm hearing this like fourth party or fourth time and i just happened to notice on the agenda this morning when i was looking at front porch forum it said kas bill i'm like i called jeffrey and said probably a good idea for me to come over and so that's why i'm here", "i just what i really wanted to do is you know formerly request that you reconsider the decision that was made last time and give me a chance to kind of explain what happened", "absolutely", "so with that and in interest of you know time but most all of you have been involved with you know the work that we did or are familiar with it so i'll start with in march when we presented the preliminary results of our analysis of the flood mapping where it looked like there were some you know fairly significant irregularities or you know it wasn't really right", "and we did our preliminary coordination with fema and with their consultant cdm and we thought we had a clear picture of what was gonna come", "and so we developed a scope of work based on that", "and we worked up to the april 10th or whatever the deadline was you know it was coming up pretty quick and it was a quite a bit of work that needed to be done in order to complete the model and to complete all the paperwork for the what it was as it was an appeal and a lomr a letter of map revision", "and so that went in and what really what happened since from that time is that the the fema contractor from cdm who was reviewing the data they assigned it to someone who wasn't familiar with the original model", "we were originally working with someone but basically what it was it was kind of like what fema did to the state of vermont and they had these one people saying one thing and then they switched it to someone else and he said something else", "and not only that they weren't as familiar with the model", "so steve who was with me during the presentation before he really handled all the technical aspects of it", "i'm not nearly as familiar with the hydrogeologic model as he is but he really had to spend a lot of time bringing this guy up to speed", "and then we were originally led to believe that the appeal in the lomr would be reviewed simultaneously but the way they actually did it that did not occur", "and what they did is they had the appeal reviewed by one consultant and the lomr reviewed by another consultant", "and that other consultant told us that we had to do all the mapping which originally we were told that we would update the model provide all the data provide all the elevations and that they would do the mapping and that was really the vast majority", "and i knew we were taking a risk at the time but we wanted to keep this thing going", "we wanted to be able to meet the deadlines that they had come up with each time we got a letter of information request or even if it was just a phone call it's like you know we need this in addition to or modified so in developing that map it really it's because it's such a large area you know it took hours and hours and hours", "i mean if i don't know if you had a chance to look at our invoices but we you know we detail every bit that's done you know", "we try to put as much explanation on as possible", "so what you know what came out of the vast majority of the extra work we did was related to that", "that was submitted and then we got information back that there was a mistake and you know we made a mistake in the mapping part of it", "so we made that correction", "and if you look at our invoice it's i think it was originally for like over five thousand and we took off two thousand one hundred", "yeah so it was like for four it was like for four thousand five hundred and we took off two thousand one hundred and fifty two and you can see the actual time that we took off", "and we felt that wasn't fair to bill a town for it because it was based on our mistake", "but everything else that we did was you know had to be done in order to complete this", "we weren't spinning our wheels with the exception of what we deleted", "and it was just a matter of you know we were able to see clearly to that april 10th mark when we submitted the paperwork and things kind of unraveled from there", "so and then in addition to that just this is minor but you know jeffrey wasn't able to go to the williston meeting so we went to represent the town of richmond in order to get williston to sign on board because williston and jericho needed to sign on board", "and then we also needed to do some additional mapping for each of those two areas paperwork and things like that", "that wasn't very much of the extra but that's just one other item there that was requested of us", "so i mean that really that's the nuts and bolts of where we are now and why we're there and it's not over yet i'm sorry to say", "when we sent this letter with our invoice we said you know we probably expect a little bit more coordination with them and sure enough march 26th i don't know if you've seen this or jeffrey you should have a copy of this march 26th letter oh yeah", "for additional information", "and again it's they indicated to this it has to do primarily with the transitions at williston and jericho and i think also upstream for bolton that the you know when we check if we prefer to change the model in richmond obviously there's gonna have to be some kind of transition", "and they said don't worry about it", "we'll work that out", "and so our submittal followed our the direction that they gave us and so the lines you know they do this they're in bolton they're way up here and they go and you know just to make that adjustment because now they're not lining up", "and part of this is to revise the mapping so that there's smooth transitions", "they need a certified copy of the mapping itself pe stamped which we're prepared to do", "and you know so here it is and for that our estimation was correct", "i think we said a day's worth of labor is what it's gonna take six hundred and forty", "i still think that's about where we're at", "so i'm asking the select board to reconsider you know approving this invoice here for two thousand five hundred and thirty four and so that we can finish the job another six hundred and forty", "and i can tell you from experience in working with other large engineering companies that are under the star program you know the cdns the stantecs and that no town would receive what we've delivered for less than about ninety thousand or one hundred thousand", "and i'm proud to say that we were able to cut through a lot of that you know administration or whatever you know these big companies do", "and not only that i mean we were way ahead of the game just in being here", "you know i live in richmond so i know the ground i know why there were errors in the model and i was able to help steve through that", "so i really think this is you know a value to the town", "it's good work that we did", "and we'd really like to get paid for it", "okay", "thank you", "do you have questions i guess my main question was going back to the beginning so then what was the was it originally contracted at a fixed price or how did it was before my time how was it so it was originally something that our agreement was that it was a probable estimate of costs is the way it was presented okay", "and that our proposal was that it would be time and materials and it had our rates right in there", "right okay", "my recollection part of our discussion correct me if i'm wrong was that the invoice was for services that had been delivered significantly there's a significant time difference between the services delivered and the invoice that was one of the concerns was that some last week or last meeting", "of those expenses occurred in our previous fiscal year", "they're services from april oh right yeah and i mean that's just a matter of the process being dragged out april 8th", "i mean all the back and forth and i mean we didn't wait", "it was you know we did wait for you know our responses from fema and from their consultant but you know i think this was we kind of got caught up at the end of the year with end of the year stuff but this was pretty much addressed at the beginning of january", "i think we were working on it in december", "but some of the billing that's listed is from april and may from right before july 1st is what we're talking about right right", "i see so that's were we got stuck", "oh right right yearend so that's an expense from the previous fiscal year", "does that need to be divided out or i think what happened in the last meeting and i'm remembering some of my own comments is well first of all i do similar kind of work to what you do and work with public sector clients and i think that there's always the danger when you have a scope creep which is essentially is what you have in you know in a project like this that if there's not effective communication back to the client and timely invoicing for changes in the scope of work you know you're gonna get questions asked and that's what we're doing", "also there's just the timeliness matters you know in terms of you know where we can take money from to pay and what's like that", "and so this was not on the quality of the work and not on the need for the work but the management of the invoicing and the communication with us as the client i think is what you're hearing", "okay and i hear that loud and clear", "and like i said you know we took a risk when we went forward and wanted to you know just respond to the information requests and you know i will admit that you know i didn't have a tight handle on what steve was doing", "he was pulling ahead", "i mean he was doing good work but you're absolutely right chris", "i mean there could have been a much better degree of communication earlier on", "well that does concern me", "well and i think just the billing frequency is cause am i right are we seeing this bill for all of this work done on january 3rd two thousand and thirteen from nine months earlier i mean are we seeing a bill nine months after the fact that the work is done in this one yeah", "is that normal business practice i mean it would seem to me that you know well i mean i'd say it's not normal business practice right", "and that's sort of what we're bringing back to you and it's not something that we can work with very well", "sure i understand that and you know you know i can say that it really depends on the project and this one you know would have periods of time where you know we were waiting for a response", "we probably should have been you know invoicing more frequently at that period", "but honestly we didn't know where we were going yet", "it was still we're trying to figure out", "oh i agree", "i mean there was communication with steve and i and steve had told me that he was starting to put more time in what they talked about but there wasn't any discussion about billing but i think that they he didn't know how far cdm was going to go with requesting changes", "i think by the end of august it got to the point where it was something that we just couldn't disguise any longer", "but there are two separate things i think we're talking about here", "one is that there's the unknown about a project that has openended aspects to it and in that case i think what any client would expect is for your firm to come back and let us know what you don't know and then when you get information that seems to indicate that additional expenditures are gonna be necessary to make that known before those expenditures that time is spent that's number one", "but then when we were talking about before about invoicing for time that had already been spent significantly before you know that's gonna be if i'm understanding you know correctly you know seeing a bill for time spent nine months before in an invoice that hadn't appeared before that you know with that kind of delay makes it impossible for us to do our financial management", "so basically we have no real idea how much the project is costing with that kind of with both of those things going on", "at least that was my concern yeah and i recognize that characterizing the situation no i recognize that's something we could have done better", "mary if i may and this isn't gonna be popular and i really don't care but i'm known for that", "i think it's interesting that a member of the audience was the person who communicated with eric and that when chris is talking about communications that's a twoway street and then eric read on front page forum that his bill was being discussed", "i think the ball was dropped on one side as well", "thank you thanks", "well i for one would be willing to reconsider because i know that you were communicating with jeff along the way saying we're not done", "i do think that we could have done a better job", "i know in my organization that if we're coming to yearend and we haven't seen a bill yet we are on them so that we know that everything is covered before our audit", "so i think there was there were more then there were a number of balls in the air and a number of them were dropped", "so i do think there's responsibility on both sides so i am willing to reconsider", "other thoughts i certainly want to maintain a good working relationship and like i said i haven't heard any complaints about the quality of the work but i think we need to take care of the situation would make it clear that that can't happen in the future again because your point's a good one jim but we it's not clear to me that there's anything that we could have done to have known about this and i well we knew that we were having a service provided and we knew that there probably was going to be a bill coming", "but did we know that there were services that we hadn't been invoiced for months before that then we were gonna be invoiced for you know we have so many services that we get provided by the time", "i don't think it's our responsibility to go after people to send us bills", "i think that's the responsibility of the business owner is to say i need my money pay me and if we don't pay them then it's their responsibility to come to us and say hey why aren't you paying me we can't go down our list of warrants and say do you have anything outstanding do you have anything outstanding do you have anything outstanding to us i mean that's what a business owner has to do", "i'm split between the two of you on that particular one", "but i mean i think it is a twoway street but i think there has to be a you know basic minimum amount of good business practices and i do hear you loud and clear", "you know my relationship with the town business relationship and the fact that i'm part of this community is very important to me", "and i'd like to be able to continue to provide service for the town whether it's on a business relationship or you know some of the volunteer work that i do and i definitely hear you loud and clear you know as far as if there are any other future opportunities", "so and then again what are we looking at moving forward this six hundred and forty yes coming up and then are we anticipating and that's it i mean i have anything else or no we've got what we need right here", "you know at first it was a guess you know a day's worth of labor", "now we know what we have to do in writing", "and that's the last thing we have to do that's i mean they're asking for i know i know i understand where you're coming from on this", "i can't speak for fema or for cdn right yeah yeah", "but i can also tell you that we are not going to proceed with anything in the future without communicating", "that's the key thing", "and i think i would be satisfied and pay the outstanding bill with that and then the other thing is just an understanding that we in the future won't pay for any services rendered in their invoice more than ninety days after the point that they're delivered that's fair", "how's that sound that sounds like a good plan", "i think that's a good plan for all of the people who provide service to the community", "any further discussion only that i agree if somebody is on the agenda we should make sure we call them and right", "yeah yeah sorry about that sorry about that", "well i would have come to the last meeting if i had known", "yeah right", "okay", "do we have to vote on that or is that just been the conversation well right since it's not on the warrant warrants we have to vote on it separately", "okay", "that would be charged to administration legal services", "okay or you could vote on that now if you like", "would someone like to make a motion i would like to move the payment in the amount of two hundred and fifty three thousand four hundred and fifty for services rendered by kaz incorporated kas kas incorporated invoice dated january 3rd two thousand and thirteen", "could you add that we're also agreeing to pay six hundred and forty for services outstanding and additional six hundred and forty for services outstanding", "second", "any further discussion all in favor aye aye", "aye any opposed ayes have it", "thank you thanks very much", "thanks for coming in thanks for coming in", "okay great", "back to", "the race policy", "there was only one and this is just a grammatical edit crap where is it it's under the round church ah under section two race provisions a contact with the round church", "so the first sentence under a it says the round church often hosts a weddings just a minor grammatical error", "okay what i didn't see in here was notification to area residents and we did did i miss that i think it's", "section section two yeah down third page near the bottom 3b", "yeah that's to the town manager", "last page yeah third page", "send letter to residents along racecourse okay i think i probably just got to the end and i was like it's fine", "i would like to add something down at the bottom where it says post event cleanup that we will bill your event for what we have to clean up oh", "if it's not clean if it's not clean", "yeah", "would it be prudent to take a deposit in situations like that yes if we're gonna yes it would be because if you're you don't have anything to bill unless you make a deposit exactly right", "lik even if it's something and i mean i'm just making up a number of one hundred", "yeah you know i mean i don't know how much it costs to pick up and dispose of trash but maybe that money is a deterrent for doing it", "i'm just making up a number", "well that also makes adds a little weight to the actual application process to", "right right exactly exactly", "yeah cause i mean i can tell you your point's a good one but fining after the fact that", "right yeah it's difficult", "how we gonna enforce it you know take it to people's court judge judy judge judy the only thing i think that we should at least consider is it says leave it better than you found it i think we should leave it as you found it", "like we don't really expect them to mow the lawn right", "and plant a few things yeah exactly exactly", "leave it as you found it", "you know i did take a little umbrage with on section two race procedures one these procedures have been developed to serve as a guideline blah blah blah strict adherence to these guidelines is not required", "however if unfavorable situations develop the select board may impose conditions on future events i feel like if we're gonna be putting in the effort to do this and we're i feel like there should be some like this is these are our policy this is our policy and either you follow it or you don't", "i mean these are not egregious requests", "they're pretty basic requirements to do and i feel like that that's something that if you want to hold a race here on our property and inconvenience some of our residents that these are what you should be expected to do", "i agree that sentence doesn't make sense", "true because we can just take it right out because if that's the point then why have these recommendations why have this policy if we're not gonna if we're not gonna enforce it yeah right right", "because of what separates the people from who apply and go through the process than those who don't and we should probably also have to have a discussion about what we do with people who don't do an appropriate", "i think that's what that was trying to allude to that if you don't follow these guidelines then you won't be welcomed back", "i think that's the message it's trying to put out there but you're right it's like we're putting guidelines together and we're telling you you don't have to follow them", "right", "yeah well that's where the deposit can come in too", "we can say right right", "what you just said and also that your deposit may be forfeit right", "and then the next question is how do we crack down on those folks i mean like mary's in here sometimes every select board meeting talking about a race that happens all the time in front of her house and how do we i mean we've talked about you know getting the word out on other front porch forum's or other town managers or other things like that", "how do we do that and i don't have a good answer for that", "well you know i think that the issue that mary correct me if i'm wrong that you're having is that these are these are impromptu gatherings as opposed to the scheduled events where they have to be there's also on the bicycle club has time trials and they'll throw up a sign on the property road at the beginning and end of each end and that's for eighty bicyclists on there", "right yeah", "we can contact the group if we know who it is and that they regularly right right", "hi my name's hailey", "i live in round church neighborhood and you can do whatever you want with the guidelines", "however i have not seen trash when the racers leave", "good to know thank you", "i mean i think we don't want to discourage people from coming and biking here", "and i don't think these services are", "right yeah yeah", "no for any kind of yeah", "and i was trying to remember why this stalled out when we were doing it before i think it just and i didn't remember but we're we gonna add a form to fill out or do we have a form that people fill out that gives all their contact information no we don't oh yeah we should have that is that were we gonna add that to this and maybe just like a sorry", "like this is well it could be like here's our policy", "it could be a signature line on here that they're signing that they've read this and they know what we're asking them to do", "yeah", "with a line of like we've received your deposit and it's being held and", "right and then we get their contact info need their contact info and whatever else yeah", "that's a good idea to add it right to this and then when we have them yeah", "signing off saying they know that this is the what we're asking them to follow", "because there's no reason to create a new form when all the the information's right on it", "no exactly", "right right yeah", "okay i'd be in favor of that", "bruce is there any way to add the website so that you had a calendar that oh a website yeah", "the whole all of the that would be so great and yes not the current one but the new one soon", "the once and future website", "you know that it's something like i don't live on cochran road but if somebody lived on cochran road and they were planning on their own gathering that you know right right", "yeah look on the calendar and say geez there's gonna be a hundred bicyclists on here maybe we oughta put it on sunday instead of saturday our gathering right", "it would be beneficial too for the historical society to put weddings on there that have already been booked and yes absolutely yeah yeah", "yeah there are many options for different types of calendars in the variety of website options we're looking at", "great and it's definitely on the priority list for the new website like yeah", "one thing on the website", "it seems to be with the small number of towns in vermont that there could be one template for the website so if you wanted to go to williston's website or shelbourne it's the same website yes", "you're gonna have pictures that are different the names are gonna be different but if the base you know it's like how you set up a dictionary a through z", "right well there is a template that many vermont towns have used and we're looking at it and that's one of our options but if you look around because i've been spending some time on recent towns looking at their water and sewer rates and every town is different because of their size", "and so the needs of williston are gonna be much different than our needs", "so maybe their website which i think they use gov office is much more in depth than what we may need", "but yes there is a template that is available to point your horse in the direction it's going you get farther okay do we need to vote on this it's gonna be still revised and come back to us it's not ready to be voted yet", "okay perfect", "public works spec", "like yeah no kidding", "anxious sorry i mentioned something yeah i can see why nobody wanted to deal with it yeah i don't want to deal with it", "but what's the use", "yeah thanks", "i was like why are we talking about us it's your fault", "i was saying yeah doh", "okay", "right the bulk of this document is supposed to be technical specifications on public improvements or improvements in the right of way whether they're the installation of gas lines or water lines or sewer lines thickness of pavement any kind of repair", "also it'll specify culvert diameters and those sorts of things that the state of vermont requires whenever you redo a road you upgrade", "in the beginning of it it looks sort of like it's supposed to match up with some of the planning and zoning documents because there's the potential that whenever somebody puts in a new development they're going to put in improvements that'll be taken over by the town at some point whether it's gonna be a road or a storm water system or what have you", "so these have been in development for about five years", "right now they're still stuck in planning", "it's been a couple of years i think since kendall and pete goslin took a look at them", "this is one of my goals is to restart the review and final approval of this document", "the current public works specs are on our website", "they look nothing like this", "they are essentially a hand cobbled collection of documents that's been photocopied a million times and it's pretty sloppy", "even though this is quite a hefty document it's a lot more professional than what we have", "so you get an idea of what it is we're trying to do", "i'm not expecting you to look at it and comment at this point", "if you do want to look at it and read it and comment let me know but this would come back to you after everyone else is passed off on it", "okay", "whose comments did you say are on there now the planning commission okay", "is this the type of document that other towns have yes", "did we liberate some of the information from other towns i'm not sure okay", "i'm not sure where some of it's definitely from somewhere the basic part of it came from okay sorry", "i'm just thinking like why invent the wheel and some are bigger", "great", "the thing about the taxi lane idea", "okay yeah", "yeah okay so there may be some striking of unnecessary information that we liberated from larger towns", "wish i had known this was the first draft before i read it but once the process it's riveting though yeah it's interesting", "what's the process for how does this like it sounds like it's going to the department heads then back to the planning commission and then to us yes and then the planning commission yup", "and then it would be adopted as an ordinance", "cool", "i was trying to figure out how you know how it goes together right with zoning and which comes first you know we're it's sort of the detailed overlapse", "but there is a lot of overlap", "yeah so it's sort of the detail for my interpretation it's like the detail of the zoning that's not in zoning but there's a lot of detail on here that you would assume would be in a zoning regulation", "yeah and it seems like some of it would be some of it comes to us with the access permits but then some of it is drb", "well those sections are not good sections though", "right that's the thing", "yeah there is well it's good to know that someone else is gonna be looking at this and then coming back to us because a lot of these comments are definitely relevant", "i guess they just haven't been addressed since they were put in here", "and so i'm guessing that these comments are related to the to our current zoning since the date on the document is two thousand and seven", "right okay", "all right well we'll let them work on it and then", "but it does seem like having better standards that are consistent is a good thing", "seems like a good thing yeah and this should be updated along with the yeah zoning document", "i mean i hate to make it bigger but maybe it would be part of the zoning", "well that be done because we've already heard like ray sixty some odd page i know i know", "zoning document", "this is sort of the the details of putting it together", "right so i wouldn't have one hundred and fifty", "right cause that would definitely scare people", "i guess we'd keep it separate", "yeah you know okay", "yeah", "what is your goal with this timeline well ideally i'd like to have something in front of the select board by the end of the year by december to be able to be voted on", "okay yeah i agree with that because i don't think it makes sense to keep i went and looked for the old regulations and they don't really make sense and it doesn't make sense to keep building without a unified code whether the zoning laws have been updated or not", "i think you could obviously look at it either way the insideout or the outsideout", "right and maybe the maybe it'll get the planning and zoning folks a little bit more oopmh when they're looking to do some of their work", "it says well the road standards are this and so those are passed right exactly", "and those are set", "but then the things like mary was talking about earlier with you know sidewalks right do they need them you know if we can get some clarity on that with this right", "yeah i think that in the five years that it has been since they've been reviewed a lot has happened so some of this the questions are answered like you know there's a section on the pedestrian and recreation paths", "i mean maybe not answered but there's at least more of a in town now regarding that", "so we'll let them look at it and then we'll look at it again", "bam anything else on that no", "okay", "i guess just one quick question", "should we if we have the extra time look at it and if we have comments make it or should we just wait until there's a more refined version of this before we spend our time on it i would say don't spend any time on it but if you want to that'd also be", "no that's all i need to know", "i didn't know you if were", "you were so enthralled", "like with the comments that were made", "okay yeah parts are very good", "absolutely yeah yeah", "the one sort of there was one comment about the fact that what was in there was not at all legal", "it was just sort of some comment about we think this is what should happen on and i and that definitely should be counted so", "so we'll let them do their job and then we'll take a look at it", "bruce", "can we make that available to the public i think so", "jeff can that be the working document be on the website it can be if you want it to be", "it won't be updated as they go through it probably", "they're not gonna post it every time we no this one document if it's a coincided thing with the zoning document i mean we just got to throw talking about how we didn't get that word out there and you know anybody that's thinking about doing a development and you're gonna put some new road standards in front of people in december i think people ought to know about it", "yeah you know if anybody's in the works as of right now the drb keeps waving all the private road specs", "so i think if you can get it done sooner than later maybe stop them from waiving it", "i just think anything that should be available to the public should be so if somebody has a comment on it that's constructive comments right", "and who's the current owner of this document is it the planning office right now it's in the planning office", "okay okay", "mary an offshoot of what bruce said", "we've been reviewing some of the development review board decisions and i'm surprised at some of the things that are required by our zoning document and they liberty of the drb is the waive them", "there's a lot of inconsistencies there", "something that's supposed to be good for southview that's good for graceville and pint you know if it's consistent and i don't think it's right for folks to always assume that the town is gonna take over a road", "i think that's the planning shouldn't be that if i'm gonna build this the town's going to take it and i'm never gonna have any responsibility for it because every time we take a road i think we get a lot as an asset because perhaps there's high value homes there but i don't think it should always be that the town has to take over all the you know if you had to if the town had to take over the responsibility for all common land in town for example that's pretty fierce", "and that means you have the responsibility for after a wind storm or a snow storm to get the widowmakers out of the trees", "i don't think that's a good policy overall but if the drb is consistently waiving requirements and if the applicant doesn't get what they want waived and they come before this board and they make their appeal they say well you know we need this and i can't put a development of the cheese factory unless you wave a b c and d it's just you know that there's so much inconsistency and finding this in some of the recent drb decisions it's pretty stunning", "thank you thank you", "and just about posting this document i agree with bruce in principle but i would suggest that we actually postpone that it doesn't have comments in it unless we have the permission oh", "of the person that made those comments to make the comments public", "i think it was the whole", "was it the whole thing well cause we got that other memo that is the pc subcommittee comments two thousand and eleven", "right that just spells out the comments", "right right so it was the other document that was it was a subcommittee of the committee", "i mean i think it's much better with the comments i agree", "than putting it up without the comments and people are gonna get all freaked out", "i'm not arguing with that", "it's just it's just the context where they're made in a context where they were expected to be made public and so", "and i think it i'm not really sure that i mean this could be requested of us now so right it's public", "but putting it public in there also there's no names on it so", "right and it's and", "and the other document just sort of lists all of those changes right", "that have been highlighted in this fourpage document", "so so yes", "so i can post it with comments then is that the yes", "could we update the due date for this to fall of two thousand and thirteen to take a first look at sure", "it came out in two thousand and seven or two thousand and eight", "work in progress", "okay approval of the minutes from april fifteen", "any comments i move to approve the minutes from april 15th", "second", "any discussion i did have something", "i didn't have anything", "oh you know what i didn't have anything either", "i think the only thing was just in the under the members present just fixing the fixing the titles oh yeah i see that", "oh to you and vice chair", "right i've been demoted", "right", "whatever", "i call the question", "okay all in favor aye aye", "any opposed ayes have it", "okay let's see", "oh does anybody want to report on select board committees well i could give a little a rundown just on economic development activities", "so somebody from the committee's on the water restructuring committee water rate task force", "water rate task force", "so i think or what do you we thought the best thing that economic development committee can do is just spread the word about right spread the word about the significant rate increase yeah yeah", "and about the annual meeting in may so the next week yup next week yeah", "but i'm not sure what else well and just to yeah", "we can do except make sure people aren't surprised or i mean they may be surprised but at make sure they know about it", "and to connect the final dot in the way to control rate increases in the future is by adding more customers to the water system and that means developing the village", "yeah yeah", "which leads into another thing that's kind of bumped up as a priority which is what kind of clean up can happen on the creamery site", "and that seems to be the issue that has been slowing anything down there for years and years", "and so some people are looking into have contacted people at the state to i sent you that email chain right just to figure out how we can kind of move that clean up along", "the brown fields yes yeah yeah", "because i think i recall it's like the municipality has to be the applicant right i think there are a couple of different scenarios", "okay it could be partnership or possibly even a private owner if there are funds available okay", "but so the economic development committee that has kind of bumped up as a priority of because it's the thing that slows everything down", "right and it's really a big hurdle and it's not entirely clear what's there right now", "are there you know hazards that we need to be looking at more closely to see what the status is", "there's some tanks over there", "we should know that regardless of a cleanup conversation yeah", "just because it's a safety question", "exactly", "and if we have knowledge that it's there and we don't do anything then that's not a good thing", "right so we need to figure out what's there at least figure out who knows what's there", "right right there is a report from the regional planning commission that details what oh yeah", "contamination they found", "but it just you know if anything's gonna happen there that's the first thing that's gonna have to happen is moving on some kind of clean up which will bring in more people to the water system cycle right and then the other thing was we met with jeff and mike weisel the town engineer last week and a few people from economic development and who else oh and christy winters and kathleen christie talked to us last time about the rain garden right", "potential there", "so jeff pulled everybody together to get some input on that with the town engineer and so he's got a rough design", "took some input about just you know whether it's 90degree parking or angled parking where you know how the traffic flow will work", "and he's the engineer's talking with the railroad about some of the where we have bought their land and that seemed like a great conversation", "right what we trying to do is hammer out an idea this is what we're gonna proceed with and you know there's been a lot of suggestions and it's come down to the time where i have to say enough suggestions start making decisions on what we're going to do and he's still got some issues with the railroad right of way that he has to clear up but and then we have to submit an application to the development review board", "so there's a lot that has to happen before we can start constructing anything", "yeah and there i think the idea was to get a pretty solid draft that then people can still comment on great and we're gonna make sure we contact the neighbors down there too just so that they have some input on it", "great", "but thanks for pulling everybody together jeffrey", "it seemed like a really good thing", "excellent", "when's the next meeting the third friday of each month right at richmond cafe seven hundred and thirty am richmond cafe", "okay can talk about a little bit about website and water sewer", "so website first because that's more exciting", "jeff and i had a conference call with a gentleman from was it city plus yup civics plus", "civics plus which is another web developer for they specialize in strictly municipalities government websites", "they do hosting they do tech support", "we can update it ourselves like all the stuff we want and they are looking to get into the vermont market", "they don't have a town in vermont yet as part of the repertoire", "and of course i was like does this mean that we can get a discount and he's like we can negotiate something and i was like oh okay but it is expensive", "and so i told jeff that i would work on the pluses and minuses of going high tech versus low tech and i need to get through the water rate and meeting before i can really concentrate on spending some time on this", "but basically it's gonna come down to do we want to invest in our community and maybe that's gonna bring more business here maybe that's gonna bring more people that live here", "i mean richmond's already a popular living destination", "people want to live here", "but we need to improve the business climate", "so do we want to invest or do we want to go baby steps and so it's really gonna come down to the pluses and minuses of how much we want to spend and what do we want out of it", "and the guy was willing to do a goto meeting for a demonstration of their websites how to use it how the services that they provide kind of all the fancy addons and that we could do at our leisure or we could all be at work or at home as long as it was at three hundred pm on a tuesday afternoon we could all get invites and do it on our computer", "we don't have to be altogether so", "well except that constitutes a meeting", "oh right so it's", "so it would probably have to be if we're if we can't talk with each other usually so it depends on if it's set up so that we can communicate which often you can on goto meeting because there's a little column you can say i have a question", "right right yeah", "so that would constitute a meeting i think", "all right yeah no if we could communicate with each other that would certainly constitute a meeting but if we could only communicate with the presenter would it but i think we're still a little ways away because i wouldn't want to pursue that if we weren't semiserious about going high tech and i don't know if we're there yet", "right and high tech meaning what are those things that the other website exactly", "right isn't going to provide and are those cool to have or necessary and that's the goal of my pluses and minuses", "great that's great", "okay so", "so water rate task force", "the task force has met weekly since the end of march so we've met four times and then we had a special meeting last monday which amy and chris were at cause it was a water we invited the water and sewer commissioners to hear kind of our conversation about our decisionmaking process and the difficult decisions that we've had to make which are not easy", "the things that are impacting the rates currently are misallocation of septage revenue meaning that septage revenue has been taken from wastewater and applied to water to artificially lower the rates for many many years", "we have declining septage revenues which are influencing the rates", "we have debt payments that are coming due that are primarily driven by jericho road", "but we also did browns court", "we did the lining of the sewers for you know i mean we've done a lot of improvement projects over the past couple of years and they're necessary and they're prudent and they're responsible but they're expensive", "and lastly we're fully committing to funding the capital plan", "we fund the capital plan and the general fund so we need to do that on the water and the wastewater side", "we have been slowly eating away at the amount of money that we put into capital to the point where we've depleted our capital funds to the point where in my opinion they're not unsustainable", "if we had if right now we had a major break or a major situation we would be in trouble because we do not have the funds in reserve to cover that", "so those are the influences that are driving a significant and really doubling of water and sewer rates", "and we talked a little bit because i know that there were some concern after the last meeting about the tank and that you're trying to raise a million dollars by july", "can you talk a little bit about timing so that people have a sense of what you're looking at yeah so the water rates right now are not currently being influenced by depot street east main street the new tank", "the tank is still in its preliminary planning processes", "we need a new tank because it's passed it's way past its useful life", "the people who inspect the tank no longer guarantee that it will last there because often tank companies will go in and they'll be like you got another ten years", "you're good for another fifteen twenty you know", "they're at the point now where like we were willing they were willing to not come and do an inspection on it and take that money and apply it to a future contract cause they're like basically we can't do anything", "it's beyond repair", "it's beyond maintenance at this point we chose to go through and have the maintenance done because we wanted to know what we were really looking at but so past its useful life past being able to be repaired it's undersized for the demand of the system for fire protection and just supply and the biggest one and this is really the driver i mean not that useful life isn't a driver but we're under a state timeline to address low pressure issues in the higher reaches of the community including the schools", "and that's really the biggest thing is pressures are routinely below what is acceptable in the water supply role", "and if we don't address those those could potentially lead to enforcement actions which means you're gonna have to do the work but you're gonna have to pay a penalty", "so that's what's driving it", "so the plan so the plan is we're in preliminary negotiations with landowners for a tank site", "we don't have an answer yet", "we'll do planning through the summer including surveys and survey of the land", "we'll get final numbers from our engineer and probably do a vote as early and i don't expect it to happen but november with construction not even happening until the following summer and then the bond payment wouldn't come due for another two years after that", "so we're still three years out from having to really pay for at the soonest for a new tank and that gives us an opportunity to recruit new businesses get more connections to put some money away into capital so that perhaps we can take some of that capital money and apply it to have a conversation about sharing the costs on the entire community of some of these capital improvement items", "that's another goal of the water rate task force committee is to brainstorm and potentially propose ways to share the costs of this benefit to the town among the town so", "okay thank you", "and i have to say that and i've said this in the water in the task force meetings and at the last special meeting but the task force has been really wonderful", "not everybody's gotten what they wanted but we've had very candid discussions", "they've we've all been willing to compromise and we've been very forthcoming in our opinions and it's been a positive experience for me", "i was very nervous going into it knowing what needed to be done and knowing it wasn't gonna be easy and it wasn't gonna be popular and it wasn't gonna be fun but the people that i've been working with have it's been great", "we've had great conversation so", "great thank you", "so i want to thank the water and sewer task force committee", "yeah thank you thanks", "department reports", "right now we only received the planning report this time", "like to also note the richmond rescue quarterly reports", "right", "if anybody has any questions or comments on those we can go over that but otherwise they've been submitting them", "we had a meeting with the richmond historical society about certain changes to the round church green and also trying to address some of the neighbor complaints there", "there are two issues", "one happens to be the weekly gatherings on the weekends of bicyclists and joggers that tend to monopolize the parking on round church road beginning very early in the morning and ending late at night", "and also the upcoming bicentennial celebration that's going to put a big concentration of activities and people on the green that how do we address the two residents or the four residents the two families that live on round church road", "so we're sort of trying to come up with some ideas to manage the ongoing problem which is probably going to be start out with raising some awareness with either small signs or flyers or having somebody down there sort of walking on the weekend to let people understand they're people that live there and to be courteous", "and also how we can manage to get the richardsons and the shermans in and out while keeping other people have that space at the same time", "essentially closing the road so it's pedestrians only except for the people that live there", "for the celebration not", "oh okay", "yeah and their conversation was closing one end and then keeping the other end open for the neighbors to go in and out", "is that right partially open", "partially open yeah", "but there would be a road closed sign so that it wouldn't be open to the public for the celebration", "right", "and i do have one item a couple of meetings ago we came to you with a work plan chittenden county regional planning commission work plan proposal to do a traffic study for the village", "it actually extended out to route two when the we had talked to one of the regional planning commission's sort of retained engineers that work on these projects and they happened to be stantec and they put together a budget of forty thousand", "the project was approved at twenty thousand", "when we talked to stantec to find out what we could get for twenty thousand and kathleen and i feel that what we can get for half the amount of money is not worth", "it essentially do sort of some problem identification but not any analysis of alternatives", "and we already know what the problem is right is there's traffic choke points here right", "without any discussion of what to do about it as the town grows it's a wasted effort", "right", "our recommendation is to try to pursue this next year cause there's also a secondary issue that as this came up we had finalized our budget and we didn't have the matching funds in next year's budget", "so i would like to revisit this in the fiscal year fifteen budget and include the match in the budget so we could pursue it at that time", "okay okay", "any discussion does that follow along with cause that came up in the meeting regarding route two pedestrian bike route", "oh that bike path that was not gonna be with the road but it was gonna be kind of parallel to it somewhere no there well all options are on the table right now but part of it was the fact that there's gonna to be repaving of route two in between from bridge street out to the interstate sorry or just beyond to one hundred and seventeen", "is that right right it'll be to essentially the new bridge", "i think they're probably gonna do a stretch from the bridge through williston also", "oh they are okay so", "when is that gonna happen two thousand and fourteen well the summer of two thousand and fourteen", "it will be after they do the parking the i imagine right right yeah", "and so in that conversation they want to know what the issues are with you know traffic in richmond and a lot came up at the meeting about the lights in the backup and the turning you know on red when the pedestrians have you can walk some so right five beeps", "yeah come up with the time you get to go across yeah yeah yes", "yeah you have yeah no time to get across so to cross", "so this the answers to these questions are gonna have to be answered before that we get to that point on a study right right not only that but some of the other issues i think this grew out of some of the concerns that has you know there's an issue with the market and railroad street already and as the creamery gets developed will there also be an issue with jolena court and their offset so do we have one light do we have two lights do we have any lights is there a way to manage that as well as how else traffic gets around from outside of richmond going through richmond", "right", "and so it's you know was supposed to be a much bigger project rather than just saying do we need a light at railroad street because that only answers one part of the prompt", "right okay all right", "and then jeff as far as the light it sounds like they fixed something", "something was off with the timing", "is that the most recent thing right and they came and fixed something periodically this light up here will reset its clock is what i'm told is and it goes to essentially what the very early warning timing is which favors route two", "and what they have to do is come back and reset it to the correct time so that between seven hundred and fifteen am and eight hundred am it's on a totally timing schedule", "and i have the contact information for the gentleman that does that", "so it was the first time i'd spoken to him actually and he said anytime it happens contact me don't contact district five don't contact the secretary of aot you know just contact me i'll come out and do it okay so we shouldn't have to suffer through it for three days at a time", "do you know if it changed anything when they fixed it did it yup well the on front porch forum's gonna be oh whoever did something it's much better now yeah right well the this is the way it works is the early morning timing it's like essentially a seven second green which is not enough time for bridge street right right", "the normal timing it actually does have a delay at the end where jericho road stops first right right okay and they can still and bridge street gets four seconds clear exactly", "now i never knew that but i think a lot of people don't know that", "a lot of people don't because if you're coming down jericho road you have the red and they're going like no i have red light", "right because they're still using", "they think that they have green so they think you still have a green", "right", "and so people do not know coming up bridge street that that turns green and jericho turns red so that they're still right the delayed green", "or", "yeah", "it's a mess", "right so normally it's not really that bad unless the timing goes off right", "or unless sometimes you'll get two school buses together that for a variety of reasons they have to they get backed up one behind the other and they have to wait a full bus length before they cross the railroad tracks and you get two buses that have to do that it can add a lot of time right", "but you know there's no doubt there's bad traffic there", "but i think the light is doing the best it can right now but whenever it resets whether there's a power surge or you know the wind hits it just right or something you can tell it's like a seven second light and that's just not enough time to get anybody through", "and i still do think that something needs to be done about the fact that when people get the cross sign the pedestrian cross sign the traffic that's going in that same direction gets a green light so if you're taking a turn you're turning at the same time someone's crossing", "it is really dicey so that needs to change", "there needs to be five seconds or ten seconds or whatever it is when nobody can go when nobody can go", "fourway red right", "and only the pedestrians can go", "right yeah i've encountered that in the mornings and i'm like i have green like i why are you going exactly", "oh you have walkie person so all right okay", "i just want to say that the richmond rescue quarterly report was excellent and i love getting those reports from them", "looks like they are definitely moving in the right direction", "that's good to hear yeah", "because where they were a year ago i mean that's it's a long year it's definitely absolutely and they've made a lot of", "organizations have difficulty changing and yeah and they've done a great job of it so", "anything else on department work reports or just one thing that several of us did get cpr training and training on our defibrillator", "we have the defibrillator mounted on the wall out here", "so i got certified and then got certified martha lang i forget who the fourth person was but", "excellent", "so that i think it was kathleen", "so that during a meeting one of us could operate it if we needed to", "and we got that thanks to richmond rescue got there as a grant donated to us that's excellent", "good", "hopefully we never have to use it but it's good to know that it's here", "and for anyone who has never been trained you can open it up and the instructions are there so don't hesitate if no one trained is around", "look at the aed read the directions follow the directions and you could save a life", "right it won't work right if you", "except when it needs to work", "right", "you can't push it and shock somebody", "it's a computer and yeah it knows exactly what it needs to do", "it speaks to you it tells you what to do", "in if it's not right or if it senses the wrong heart rhythm it won't work so", "wow i experienced one of those not personally", "so that's good excellent", "consent agenda the air one thousand and fifty eight payment amendment", "right this should we move to the consent agenda because isn't that the goal of the consent agenda oh right and the highway access permit", "so i move the consent agenda", "second", "discussion the payment schedule reflects what should be the final payout amount because we use ninety nine point something percent of what we're supposed to we never took the full amount so this amends it down to what the final final loan is supposed to be", "and this was the era money that we did the sewers and the storm sewers which was fifty loan forgiveness fifty forgiveness and fifty loan", "so it was you'll never see that again by the way", "it was sixty nine million one hundred and forty nine thousand two hundred and seventy six", "this was the work we did in two thousand and ten", "and our repayment amount is thirty four million five hundred and seventy four thousand six hundred and thirty eight with a two management fee to the state", "it's not called interest", "it's called a fee that's good", "so this is essentially slightly less than what's in the budget but", "and this has been accounted for in the proposed budget", "excellent", "and then the access permit is on thompson toad", "it's for gary bresser", "he is proposing to build a duplex with some agricultural improvements at betty preston's barn that property that he bought last year and he's proposing an upgraded access to thompson road", "right now it's just the dirt lane and this is his request for real access", "okay did you move it a second any further discussion mary during the process of taking pictures today for our listers updates i know i said there was activity on this lot without an access permit and we do not have a set alteration permit or any kind of a permit for activity on that lot in our files related to tr0069", "and outside of that i don't know if this highway access is supposed to be some sort of a first attempt at a remedy but there's site alteration work and believe a bucket loader was over there after we took pictures of the site alteration", "so i just don't know why there's not a permit issue or activity on this law okay", "i don't know why either", "jeff can you check stuff's going on", "into that jeff sure", "thank you thank you", "any other discussion all in favor aye aye", "any opposed the ayes have it", "approval of warrants and purchase orders", "so on the warrants there was one mistake", "it was on the payments", "so the department of health regarding the bordeaux property", "the payment is five hundred and six", "it should actually be five hundred and sixty six", "it was really hard to read the person's handwriting when they wrote it out but the email very clearly shows it should be five hundred and sixty six", "okay thanks", "i could have been there", "okay i just it's perpendicular and i wrote it on that warrant", "just sign there", "you can", "and okay", "there you go", "all right so warrants are good", "will do you have those to pass around so you'll so we can approve these that we're gonna put them with the changes will change yep", "okay just mark that change and we'll yeah it's marked", "okay doing that", "is there a need for executive session tonight jeff no", "really okay", "are there items other items you want to talk about being put on the next agenda who's gonna do warrants yeah let's talk about that", "i haven't done it for awhile i'll do it", "okay", "there you go", "all right soon as we get done signing is there a motion to adjourn oh actually you know i actually can't make it to the next meeting", "oh you're not gonna be able to make it to the next meeting too afraid not", "okay so when's the next meeting the 19th", "i mean i'm always here i mean i don't go anywhere", "the 20th", "i forgot about that", "it's the only thing on my schedule", "i'll be here", "ann you'll be here i'll be here", "okay so we have a quorum", "at the airport", "okay", "yeah that's the after graduation weekend", "i'm going to be working all weekend", "all right so we will have a quorum for the next meeting so yeah", "okay", "who's volunteering to do the warrants who is volunteering to do warrants taylor you can", "taylor i'll do it taylor was just voluntold to do the warrants", "voluntold bam", "have you done it yet it's really fun not yet", "did you say it's really fun so can we get two people to do it next time with taylor because he hasn't done it so he just doesn't do it", "i can do it thank you that would be great", "i promise i'll do it", "just go through with them since it is a learning process", "there are some special invoices that we get that sometimes you have to do a little digging to understand why we're paying what we're paying", "all right i'll entertain a motion to adjourn if there's nothing else", "so moved", "i'll second", "all in favor aye aye", "any opposed we are adjourned", "thank you"], "name": ["Richmond_Selectbd_5-6-13/Richmond_Selectbd_5-6-13/Richmond_Selectbd_5-6-13_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "Richmond_Selectbd_5-6-13/Richmond_Selectbd_5-6-13/Richmond_Selectbd_5-6-13_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "Richmond_Selectbd_5-6-13/Richmond_Selectbd_5-6-13/Richmond_Selectbd_5-6-13_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "Richmond_Selectbd_5-6-13/Richmond_Selectbd_5-6-13/Richmond_Selectbd_5-6-13_DOT_flac_00003.flac", 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2063, 2550, 6223, 1000, 9709, 6826, 9440, 1580, 4830, 2383, 16799, 1100, 4710, 1385, 1583, 1650, 833, 8605, 9810, 5177, 7763, 7390, 5193, 5299, 14990, 5780, 2523, 26491, 8483, 2625, 1312, 6270, 998, 11392, 5160, 9538, 4352, 2490, 5750, 12195, 1848, 833, 4983, 3150, 2000, 3976, 3439, 7790, 11284, 5913, 7400, 2513, 860, 1963, 4943, 7871, 833, 2937, 7040, 2240, 2173, 10020, 25640, 4441, 4079, 5422, 3825, 6133, 5940, 1653, 14550, 2850, 7332, 11758, 13460, 1811, 5999, 4970, 1260, 13810, 5600, 6376, 6407, 4355, 4752, 1527, 4983, 2273, 2562, 1373], "label": ["let's call the meeting to order", "we're going to proceed in a", "without our chairman tonight", "and as vicechair i'll take over just to get myself moving here", "thank you", "maybe he's out on a call", "yeah i don't know", "emergency", "while i'm waiting for the agenda to come up would like to start with a", "commendation to the girls varsity lacrosse team at mmu which remains undefeated sixteen to ten against rice tonight", "did they lose one i don't think so", "maybe one", "maybe they tied one", "so do you want to do public comment yeah let me just let me just get my act together here", "sorry i just didn't quite have the agenda up in front of me darn it", "why don't why don't we start public comment any any comment from the public thank you", "prior to diving into the agenda anybody yes sir", "i'm here about the supposed to be on here for today", "it is", "it is it is", "where is it oh it's under outstanding zoning issues update", "so it's in the in the first little bit there it's that item 1b and i apologize for the sunlight", "yeah time heals all wounds", "okay let's get going here", "first of all we're gonna start with the will's farm conservation reserve fund purchase", "jeff you want to set us up there we're at the last meeting we heard a presentation from the richmond land trust and the conservation commission about the purchase of about twenty two acres of land which is just to the east of the farm barn in the old house which we're calling the will's farm property as part of that old farm that's been subdivided", "the richmond land trust has plans to use two funding sources to purchase that sixty four thousand from the conservation reserve fund and the balance from a state grant which we'll hear about later in june", "they plan to preserve the parcel and use it for recreational purposes", "they mentioned they were willing to give part of that parcel to the schools to advance", "youth sports for the schools", "and we discussed you know pretty much the the", "what the property looked like we arranged site visits", "i know that three select board members toward the site", "taylor's not here", "you arnold", "i think those are the only ones that made it", "and the health officer also", "also", "so the question remains the request is sixty four thousand from the conservation reserve fund", "we can get into this now after some discussions the town would like to see two things on that property", "one is some sort of reservation for an area for water and sewer to go through because there's been a request from the reaps that own the former barn and farmhouse that", "that they get municipal water and sewer that's really been in development", "there's no concrete plans yet but that's something that the town the water commission would be willing to see happen", "but that has to cross school property to do that", "and then also cross this property to do that", "and the second thing was you've got an email from fran thomas that explains the issue for a long time", "there had been a thought that there could be an evacuation route from the schools down the route two and that there's any number of directions i could take", "but again there's nothing concrete", "there's never been any design for that but we'd like to see a reservation with that", "i think that we can approve the request if the board wanted to approve the request subject to negotiating some sort of reservation for both of those items", "and i'd like to hear what the conservation commission and the richmond land trust feel", "any questions from the slow court those personally i think those are reasonable requests", "it's about preserving options", "yeah though the cost of some of those is unclear", "there's no way to really resolve anything well and that's why it's just kind of holding it as a you know reserve an all", "just to be clear", "it's not possible to make a firm commitment for any one of those three different neighbors both the water sewer which have different issues based on flow and direction", "and then the road based on the slope is a substantial project", "but if we don't if we don't do first in then we may lose the potential for for the future", "so the benefit is if we hold this and it's a hold it's not a commitment right", "it's more of a potential commitment for the future", "it's it's the opportunity", "exactly", "but not a obligation", "yeah i support both", "i strongly support support secondary emergency egress from the school", "congress person board from the public and the school", "yeah thank you", "i would just like to say if this does go through that both of those asked for our reserve without cost to the reefs and also without cost to the school or the town", "we're already billing up a sixty four thousand from the conservation reserve fund", "and then the second please", "how has the acquisition and upkeep going to differ from other parcels that richmond land trust currently owns it brings to mind when mr vegans came in last year and had a complaint or a yeah", "i think it was about a year maybe a year and a half ago a complained about a trespass on his property from the folks who were using the path and just trespassing on his land", "and the other end of that stick if you will is that there's trespassing on my land and there was supposed to be some action from the richmond land trust to stop that it has not happened", "so what's going to be different from the acquisition and upkeep from this parcel that's in a highly visible location from the lack of maintenance and upkeep on areas where they can't be seen as easily", "so i would like and i do not believe that those are unfair questions", "thank you", "any other questions from the public why don't we have the the conservation mission", "were they prepared to come up and present on the project i know ernie's here", "okay", "ernie would you like to i might not have anything to present but i'm happy to", "well look well this might be a better question for the richmond land trust then because we're talking about reserved property not necessarily conservation commission", "would anybody from the land trust like to talk about confused access i guess is the yeah i'm by the way", "i'm here of the richmond land trust", "and in terms of the first two comments issues", "we supportable for those constraints", "you know where we can get money from conservation trust fund", "we've contacted and we have that in email and we'll get in writing also their agreement that right away as being reserved for water sewer and where we see egress", "defined with design", "and he envisioned that it would be done with at no costs for the component that belongs to the land trust", "this purchase goes through", "can't speak to adjoining manuals of school of course", "and in terms of concerns about controlling access", "i can only speak to that parcels that we seek to have the parcels on well signed", "all of our preserves whether it is not intended to be accessed to the adjoining parcels", "we have summons in place", "i think as far as i know on the i think it is concern", "we have no parking signs about parking", "i think that is relatively mitigated", "obviously we can't control even woods", "everybody who might walk through the woods", "i myself live across from the woods", "and yet people walk through it without asking", "and but certainly it's our commitment that we want to be good neighbors and do our thing to control access to their neighbors without going to have egress from our parcels to get to parcels", "so we'll put those things in place for this parcel", "upkeep of keep with the question", "yeah upkeep is i mean the signage and then we can do the control so there's not unwanted trespassing on the adjoining parcels", "the original land owners wouldn't want that", "so i get the signage and upkeep", "what's the other issue how else would somebody prevent somebody going from this land to the adjoining piece of land i'm not sure what that question", "some of it is up to the neighbor where you know whoever the neighbor might be", "our lands are typically open to the public and oftentimes boundaries are known", "sometimes boundaries are not clearly defined and certainly enforced by state law", "people have a right to walk from one parcel to the next", "i think we have my correct science have been made for the back of the parcel of various questioning to the installment", "some additional signs that they're made to assist the adjoining landowner where there's a fair amount of wine nonwhite activity on brian hilton", "with the beneficiaries of that mountain biking you know sometimes it's fine sometimes it's not fine", "we don't support it's use on some of the properties but it does take place", "the the two easy ones that will potentially be on this property for water and sewer and the road at some future date", "it's contemplated that they will be up buying the interstate", "and at least that's the conversations we've had with broth as a conservation board that the that access and the logical access is up against the interstate fence which seems big when we mark the site makes a kind of sense at least for water and for the road sewage or setback it seems less clear in terms of you know slope which direction things flow", "what about the acres of the actual site who's gonna do the lawn mowing the snowplowing who's gonna pay for that well you'd need to go back to build on that a little bit to to make that site into a a sledding that will require the removal of a fair amount of trees and brush", "and i would imagine that you have a plan for getting it to the that final vision and then maintaining it is crucial", "yeah i think our plan for the improvement of the parcel or the of the parcel is to raise the funds required to do so", "and the benefits of the project if in some instance you are not able to raise the funds to make it a cycle of life and you would and you would have the same parcel that provide all benefits to the school with due egress to the fields", "we think for all purposes of the conservation funds that would not that just not feasible the project and we wanted widespread community support for the project", "we're optimistic that we can get that down to that favorable costs", "you're saying it involves we we need all our parcels", "we plow saffron preserve it's part of the budget the funds that we raised we all feel their upkeep all across", "one comment that i've heard is a question about safety", "and while there is a fair amount of dispense from the bottom of the go to the the paved road thinking how twelve year old voice any thoughts on you know what the engineering that looks like like how likely is it then a kid on a sled in the right place that can get issues could get that far and avoid getting any put up a fence seasonal or yearround fence to prevent that possibility", "the reason there's quite a long run out from the hill to to to to with a slight update at the end i think a fence will be adequate for anybody who's pushing that in fact with", "so i guess i'm i keep coming back to the fact that while the conservation commission saying wouldn't it be nice to have a sledding hill this is twenty plus acres of of a piece of property that has come into the come into the village is one of the first things you see", "and and whether they put a sledding hill on it or not they still want to conserve it", "i i don't want to be belaboring the points of the sledding hill and and miss the forest for the trees here", "as it were", "as it were", "i think that that we're getting stuck on on minor details", "and the fact that if there is a sledding hill there's not going to be a driveway", "there's not gonna be a parking area i think but even still i mean this is that it's it's it's not the it's not the purpose of the property is to be a sledding hill the purpose of the property is to conserve it", "if we can deal with that provisionally throw the sledding hill improvements into the other provisional items including the road water so where those were ideas but not currently concrete", "so what you're saying is that the project should and does stand on its own merits as a conservation project", "i agree with that as well", "actually the reason that i asked the sledding of the question initially was because there's something funky going on with erosion at least there was during my vision there's very broad dispersion of sediment that was coming from somewhere", "and it would be good to understand that completely before removing a bunch of trees it seems like anyway it certainly does seem to to be a a valuable conservation project from my perspective either comments or questions from the public or anybody else", "i would just remind folks that the there were folks in our last meeting including representatives from the schools", "and we've also received the email from a middle school teacher who has ideas about how to use some of that land creatively", "so i'm going to make a motion that we authorize the use of sixty four thousand from the conservation reserve fund to be granted to the richmond land trust for the purpose of acquiring and conserving twenty two acres of the former former willis farm on route two in richmond", "can we have the caveat", "oh of course friendly amendment or addition to my motion with reserve the right of right of ways for water and sewer and an egress from the school through the property", "subject to an agreement to do", "so subject to an agreement to do so", "and we're still assessing all right", "any discussion all right all in favor", "aye", "all opposed", "you guys have it", "all right moving right along outstanding zoning issues update", "thank you", "thank you very much", "thank you", "thank you", "so should we handle these one at a time jeff i think so", "sure what order would you like to do that first i think we should take the issue that we have support for which is the boundary line between the curly's and the o'brians county road", "i will say that this afternoon denise curly came in and filed an appeal of the notice of violation to the drb", "so we can't impose any comments at this point until that's disposed of", "but going revisiting this", "and you'll see the neil lightener has a pattern of attachment which is an explanation of his history with this two neighbors on huntington road have tried to use the town's zoning bylaws to force property boundary dispute", "so the town is sort of forced to try to identify zoning violations and go after somebody to issue findings", "when in fact the the property line is ambiguous and it remains ambiguous was even though things have been surveyed there are accusations that people have agreed to things that the other party denies", "and it's really gotten to the point where we can't make any determinations and i think our zoning officer's stymied he was stymied all last year and we tried to get tough and say bring people in but it just is not cleared up", "so you can see the outstanding history of this", "and it's really gone back and forth as to who did what without a permit who needed a permit where the property line line is we can't get an agreement", "zoning doesn't make people agree where the property boundary is", "it really only will put the talent environmental court or where the violation but the issue will still be the same in front of the judge", "where's the property line who owns this site and who owns that site that that does nothing to console either the curly's or the o'brians", "and it's unfortunate but it's almost to the point where it's beyond our ability to make any headway at all", "so", "so really the options are the homeowners either mediate this themselves or they one of them takes the other to court or the town picks a side and goes to environmental court and does what what's required for there", "wouldn't that be contingent also on clear accepted property lines surveyed property lines is that an issue of dispute where the it would have to be accepted by the town in order for the town really go after it", "yeah you guys have interest where it's", "marked surveys marked up the lines therein for them", "and they pulled up the pins", "robustly clearing the marked up the line which i was there when did the survey", "and i asked him to put several pins down through and he did those are gone", "and if you look at their survey in at the back of the survey they specifically said the stone they dug that up that up through that off to the side", "i was told i was going to be fined a hundred dollars a day per not moving my shed ten feet off the line where i didn't know where the line was because they moved the pins", "they put the fence up as clearly marked by buttons that you guys have pictures on", "we never asked you", "i was told that i said would be fined a hundred dollars a day when my shed was ten feet off the line", "but yet they're fenced clearly on my property by the pictures", "neil see neil even came over", "i think he's the one that took the pictures", "house of the ten feet of my property", "you know and i don't understand why i was told that you move your shed you're getting fined one hundred a day if you don't and as soon as i moved my sheds they pulled the fence off and moved it onto my property and that's what she done", "there has to be some process for resolving this", "and and", "you know i just want the fence on the line", "and i agreed to survey", "i'm not skipping your survey", "they don't know where it is", "they stuck a pole in the ground tied a string to it created a fence that was there over top of my shed", "through a maple tree to the edge of the road", "and that's the boundary and that's what they think it is", "okay well let's let's walk through", "a process that would get us to a resolution in truth so it seems the thing that that we can't that nobody can do anything about", "without is it final determination of where the property line actually is", "that's correct yes sorry", "that's where you have to start", "and there has been a surveying of that property line and i'm not gonna i wasn't there", "i don't know what happened on the ground", "thank you for bringing that forward", "but a professional surveyor has surveyed the property line", "this is excuse me i think have there been two different surveyors yes", "okay and have they both come up with the same result within a few inches", "okay", "okay", "and i'm not disputing their surveys", "they're disputing their own surveys", "just to establish facts", "so is there any way that the town can accept those two surveys as the defined property line and go from there if they are in fact the same property line i think we would need to talk to the surveyors directly", "yes we could", "i would say we would have to use chris hagody as a witness", "either going in front of the drb or not", "the", "also the problem is even though", "and i'm getting this from you i haven't talked to chris hagody in", "chris hagody found a line that he says agrees with rubenstein survey from two thousand and three", "it's not where denise curly says it is", "so the dispute is really a refusal to acknowledge what had been surveyed last year", "so the surveys are definitive then is what you're saying well we can we can assume that you know i can't sit here and tell you that for sure", "i can you know chris mark it out", "so that'll go", "we can defend that decision in front of the drb because i could see it going to environmental court and it being very good", "and again we can have testimony from chris hagody on whether or not", "what he did to survey the line", "and the judge will make the determination", "that'll at least possibly set", "have a court decision on where the line is possibly", "it's not guaranteed", "but it's but do you agree that that that some way of determining and i think that going to court is the best way", "the question is how far does the town get involved in that because our attorney is going to be prosecuting or defending the appeal", "right", "well i mean i don't really see any other", "because as we can tell them the timeline here is the curlys are now disputing the shared property line", "they applied for a zoning a construction permit because one of their structures is on the opposite side of that or runs through it not just the fence but but a front porch setback and the drb or somebody did not", "okay", "so the zoning and construction permit was denied because they don't meet the setback requirements from the from the there's also other zone violations for a second story addition that they put on tuesday", "okay so they in addition to not meeting the current setbacks from from the the approved line for the fence there's this shed they got a denial of the source construction or the zoning construction permit", "so they're appealing it to the drb", "so the drb now has to make a determination", "so it's that", "so depending on what the dmb determines then they would appeal to the environmental court", "if you did go their way they'd have that option", "and there's another piece of the puzzle", "which denise curly claims that mr o'bryan has signed a document agreeing that the line is where she says it", "where the rubenstein survey says it is not by what she says", "by the rubenstein survey which i had no problem with doing surveys", "because that was the other gentleman who did the survey", "yes", "and it was within a couple of inches", "yeah i have no problem with rubenstein's surveys within a few inches of a chris", "they don't remember their own surveys", "that's the problem", "and the only issue is they put a fence up without a permit and it needs to come down", "so", "the next step i it sounds like the next step here is to allow us to go to drb and for the drb to act", "and then do we need to decide what we want to do contingent on the drb decision at this point no it's premature to discuss that", "so the next steps are drb and what do we know the timeframe for that she did get the appeal in in time for the june drv meeting neil sets a schedule there so he he should've scheduled it for for june", "so could this court revisit the issue after that i recognized been going on for a while right so like after some number of months or years", "like when i go out for the weekend i come back and i never know what to expect going on in there ten or thirty feet on my property next time around", "right so the question for the select board would be", "in this case are you going to impose fines for a hundred dollars a day for not complying with the notice of violation since it's been appealed let's moot at this point and it could go on for quite some time if", "if the notice of violation was upheld by the drb and the curlys appeal appeal to the environmental court you could still not issue fines but considering if you had a favorable to the town judgment in court then you could talk about whether or not you should impose fines at that time", "but this could be many months from now if all of that comes to pass", "let's make sure that it stays on the agenda as appropriate contingent upon action by the drb and what happens next", "mary yes", "surveys when they are recorded surveys become legal when the surveyor their stamp on there that is the official document", "and the survey of record is the most recent survey", "that is on file in the town clerks office in the vault and they're recognized by the drb", "and they are also required the survey to define the lines for subdivisions for the transfer of property", "and the fallback is always the needs and bounced description the deed", "so the survey of record should be recognized as the most recent one if it's been recorded and should it have to go to environmental court then the button survey will be there hopefully", "and the rubenstein survey will be as a reference point", "i don't think the button survey has been reported yet", "okay", "it's going to be a three or four block road", "and if it's a poor off road it puts it back within twelve feet and pulls the pin right down my driveway", "but this is the pin that you say is no longer there anymore", "but one of the things that whether its this road or that road you owe it to build a road", "so your road frontage whether its or the interstate you still owe the seventh road", "okay sometimes sometimes no", "okay it could be surveyed differently like different", "so the question i still have is if the if the if that second survey hasn't been recorded is it its not invalid its still an official survey", "so if i could interject if chris hagody had surveyed it he hasn't completed his paperwork yet but his testimony could be he found all of the pins on the rubenstein survey which would likely to be that in which case his testimony would say that this the rubenstein survey is accurate", "the question is where on the ground is the law that's really what's being disputed", "yeah it was clearly marked out", "if you look at the surveys road scheme it specifically says the stone in the bag you put a pin next to it", "he couldn't put the pin where it needed to go because the stone was there", "the stone ones was three pieces of slate it looked like whoever did it put some time the senator had pointed that it had came off", "that's probably what a near to one thousand eight hundred or one thousand seven hundred and i consider that a historical mark that was tampered with that they dug up and thrown away", "and i think something should be done about that", "it should be replaced", "well i think i think the pertinent for this evening unfortunately there's nothing we can do right now", "well what about the fence being my property i was i was told while i was in the meeting but people came back and told me that they said you guys can fine me one hundred a day for having a fence on my property that didn't have a permit", "oh i remember that", "we can fine you for their fence being on your property it wasn't the fence at that time", "no but i do remember the conversation saying that there's because now the the", "fence is on your property", "even though i remember this conversation", "but you have received a notice of violation for the shed", "i did for the shed", "for the shed yeah", "we haven't so we're not issuing you", "no no no", "when i was told i had twenty phone calls thirty hey jim we went to the meeting we see a lot of people there saying that they are gonna fine you one hundred a day", "unless you move your shed ten feet off the lawn", "so neil told me not to move the shed because we didn't know where the line was", "that sounds like we're still", "jeff said that he didn't have the right to say that", "and this is what really pissed me off jeff says you're going to move the shed or you're gonna be fined one hundred a day", "well now there's a fence on my property it's been there for months", "it's you know it's in violation with no permit", "they need to be fined one hundred a day or take the fence down", "except the challenge is that it's not actually on their property", "so would you write me a letter saying i should hold my own fence down then if it's on my property i'm not advising that at all i see the point that you're making too close to the property line but on one hand property line is that april gave you any of that fence", "so it's a it's a catch twenty two", "i'm smirking at the irony of the situation", "i'm not trying to be", "well at the time when we were discussing the one hundred a day fine with mr o'brien", "chris hagody had not yet completed a survey", "so we didn't really have a lot to go on", "and shortly thereafter chris had staked everything out and said look this is where the line is", "okay so can we suspend the one hundred a day fine on the shed in question just to make everything that was already so nobody's being charged fines at correct", "so what we need to define is there's a pending survey which i understand has not been fully filed", "so that survey help centers the most recent surveys the formal survey the definitive survey right recency and surveys is present", "once it's complete yes", "so if we look at and just confirming the facts of where is the boundary from the most recent survey and from the facts of where the survey is we then say this is the official line and whatever it has to move or be set back or request variances we do that there", "but it just seems to me without being friendly declarative where is the line yeah we can't do anything without starting the survey and where's the question", "yeah well the drb is going to have to him", "that's correct", "because the town's involvement in this issue is zoning based right", "and that has to go through first neil lightener and second the drb and possibly third two environmental court", "and that's where the the line of appeal is", "near i would ask that you might consider talking to whoever has been appointed fence viewer", "i believe that's also the way or cold", "but i think that might be your accountant and your accountants understand the survey's pretty darn well", "i believe that too", "and i think what he can do is he look at the survey and get the owner here and the owner would say yeah is the survey", "and that might remove the need to go to environmental court", "but the purpose of a fence viewer is", "is to be you there you go", "its worth a try", "like said chris went to talk to him tried to explain and told him it is where it is", "so", "so it's a reasonable suggestion", "well let's why do you think it's beyond the because we're", "maybe it's not worth an attempt by the fence for you to at least address the issue", "because they're they're not surveyors", "they're going to have to convince someone that a property line is somewhere where that person doesn't believe it is", "but that's kinda what this is all about", "it's people have to agree or they have to be made to agree legally", "correct", "and so we're also books being suggested which makes sense to me is it's given a try of getting people to come to a common point before going through all the riggermerall of going to court", "and the cost", "for everyone", "so is it worth the effort to mediate", "and it may go nowhere", "they may say", "i think it's worth a try", "yeah", "well when health officer goes out to a place he mediates and does the best possible he or she can possibly do before it gets to a point where it does go to court and then involved with lawyers and", "yeah exactly", "well we could try to mediate", "now we'll contact the fence viewers if the select board wants but you're not going to mediate a property line no that's it really is sort of a due diligence", "like give it a shot", "that's one level if it's unsuccessful the other process and timeline continues regardless right and frankly this", "when this surveyor says they put in pins to show well and i think we need to move on to the next item on the agenda here", "but but i think what this has been a very confusing process for everybody involved and what i'm hoping we can get a new face in give them a full understanding of what the process to come is going to be and give them the charge of communicating that to both parties so that they know what they're what what's going to happen next", "maybe that will inspire rethinking of of positions", "i don't know i don't i don't hold great hope but it's worth a try so", "but we're still gonna let it go to drb what was still yeah we still i mean there's been a there's been an appeal", "so we don't get in the way of process", "i think we do need to move on because i think there's not a lot i think i think that would you please contact the fence viewer and and do you feel like", "carol for an old contact for both", "okay you have adequate guidance from us about what needs to happen there or anything or", "i i'll advise the fence viewers on what we'd like to see", "i personally question whether it's within their ability to to get it done but you know we're gonna try we'll do our best", "there'll be a nice write up in the towner after this", "alright let's let's move move along and thank you for bringing in materials and everything", "well the fence the fencers are going to come come to talk to you come to talk to the to the curlys", "we don't know what the outcome will that will be but let's say that that nothing", "that doesn't resolve in", "resolve the issue the okay let me make sure i've got this sequence here", "the drb is going to hear the appeal of the notice of violation and that is most likely going to resolve in a in a non resolution situation because of the fact that we don't have a property line defined", "and so the next step would be the environmental court", "but there's a survey there's both an old survey and a pending survey", "so the drb could find could could the drb find on the basis of those surveys right well not it's", "again it's not it's not the survey that's in question", "it's the line on the ground", "so what you mean testimony from chris hagody that says i surveyed the the results", "i came up with the same thing as rubenstein and i here is pictures showing where the stakes are showing it on the ground right", "okay", "okay then what about the the drb has to make a decision as to whether on what side of the line it is", "and if it's on the wrong side of the line they'll order her to remove it", "correct", "and if it's", "they might actually removed it if there's no if its not permitted", "she put it anyways and there was no", "there's no permit to put it up it shouldn't be there", "its existence and its location", "shouldn't be there period", "but then of these are", "and the drb meeting is it'll be i think", "june 10th", "so let's revisit this in our subsequent attending they we meet on wednesdays or the 11th", "11th june 11th", "the meeting after that when", "our meeting after that we get an update from the drb", "if they have issued with the a decision yes", "or even if they're still looking into it just a status report it's either a decision or status recognizing that the people are frustrated with this being going on for a long frame", "okay", "thank you", "all right so let's go on to the the next", "wait we have another zoning issue we have two more i think there's one person here for the next one which is the harrington's own property at the top of wolf lane", "are you there here for them i'm just observing", "i don't have a lot to add", "do you have a survey so", "the issue came to my attention last summer for a couple of reasons but mainly the the harrington's own property at the top of wolf lane the harrington live on lane", "and so the property's above", "a very large property and there has been some clearing up there and a little other work done but", "typically not much that the town would get involved in", "they are also they have a logging operation", "i don't know if they have a file plan", "it's not regulated by the town", "forestry is not regulated by the town but they also sometimes have parties up there and i i guess the the parties have generated noise complaints and other complaints from some of the neighbors", "there was a party up there last summer where it was alleged that somebody had shined a laser at an aircraft", "and many law enforcement agencies responded to that", "and there was a big uproar and it made the news and so forth", "so naturally the residents have contacted the town and ask what can we do there was a saying that there was something up there that the kids were staying in that it was an occupied dwelling", "it was unpermitted we've researched it", "it appears to be something like a large shed", "the owner says it's a sugarhouse but won't produce the state paperwork saying it's structure", "so we've issued a notice of violation on the shed because it doesn't have a design permit", "so that it's as extremely minor issue compared to really what the big problem is", "right", "which is disturbances at the top of the hill", "that are largely unregulated by the town but are quality of life issues for the surrounding neighbors", "some of the neighbors have talked to me and said that the logging operation is altered drainage patterns and lead to erosion during last year's rainstorms", "i i don't think we have", "the town doesn't have any direct evidence of that", "the rain was certainly extraordinary last summer", "but let me ask you a question i mean this is in the news right now not around here but in washington state", "somebody must have jurisdiction stormwater", "stormwater really for oh i had you know the nonsense that's going up over on governor peck road i talked to some of my colleagues at the state and i was like stormwater you guys have", "cause if it crosses a river or if it impacts a navigable river it's considered stormwater", "and so you can call the county forester and they can come up and what's see", "i mean it's been almost a year so it might be it might be moot at this point but but stormwater has an interest in what goes on in logging operations especially if there's a stream crossing", "so if we take these one at a time one is the logging and condition to the land which right properly goes to the state as either a violation", "you know are they damaging things then there's the shed which is the construction sugarhouse either it's a sugarhouse where it's not", "it's a sugarhouse they need to to show us evidence", "if it's not a sugar house they need a permit", "right", "which they've likely bought", "right and but you said that they've been issued at an alleged noticeable edge violation", "a notice of violation for constructing a structural account", "and they could correct that", "how long ago was that notice do you know a few months ago i don't have the original data on that", "so we need to follow up so the issue now is will we go to environmental court to seek penalties to enforce that notice of violence yes", "i think as a principal why do we have rules if we don't they have to either address it take it down or go through the process right it's gotta apply consistently", "so those are the two things", "and then the third i'm going to hazard guess it's not mr or mrs harrington but the younger harringtons that we think are responsible for this just guessing", "well not the logging but i mean the use of the shed", "oh i think probably the logging too knowing one of the i think the logging thing might be a younger harrington", "okay", "so but probably the appropriate thing as far as that goes is to refer the parties have concerns about the drainage to the appropriate state agency because that's not even in our jurisdiction", "interestingly enough the person for the stormwater section in chittenden county is a richmond village resident", "patrick is already weighed ib on this", "we've had watershed consulting who came out last friday to some research on our permit", "but patrick had told us that because it was a logging operation that it's not under stormwater it's under the state", "i think that the consultant that came out on friday is he thinks that some of the culverts and ditches that were put in around the logging road are redirecting the water and they probably need to be improved but probably not the single source of all of the damage that we had last year that was because we had so many rains last year", "so i guess the short is that patrick had told us last", "it is part of the stormwater permit that upper lock but it doesn't fall under the jurisdiction of stormwater because of the operation", "if that makes sense but the county forester can be i believe that any forester can be contacted", "so here's a factual question who is responsible overseeing responsible logging in the state", "and i'm sorry i don't know the answer", "it'd be a regional forester", "the county forester", "i can get the name i can check", "try snyder", "i'm sorry snyder regional forester i think", "is he the county forester yeah", "chittinden county forester yeah", "oh you're", "yes i am", "you have him on speed dial arbitrary enforcement council", "okay", "don't they make if there are problems they say you have to abate this or correct them", "well i'm also wondering if this gentleman knows was it current use that you were talking about not stormwater with current news because current news does talk about forestry plans", "and the forestry plan has to be approved by the county forester", "and usually gets every ten years that there's a recommendation that the plaintiff's redo the forestry plan that comes to current use for approval", "and a forestry plan is brought to the county forester when that plan is approved", "so i'm not aware of any informal forest planning or what what's been currently used property if it's doesn't have to have a plan", "okay", "i had no idea if there's any plans formal plan this i thought that the scope of this was limited only to the small household or whatever building it is", "just thinking that that's all this had", "this was when again this is another issue that has a lot of different parts to it", "and the town was focused in on one one piece", "so the town can act as a conduit for contacting other officials and trying to resolve some issues", "but at the heart of it our involvement is zoning", "which seems to be before we move on from this the county forester for tiffany thompson according to the department of somebody pardon me wait for it", "its probably forest and parks", "forest parks and recreation she's at the essex junction regional office", "so at this point if if we are serious about enforcing the notice violation of society to ask for vote to enforce the companies you know talk to more experienced", "move to enforce the violation of penalty or violation of there is a violation", "alright any discussion all in favor aye", "opposed it's unanimous", "but then the broader question you know beyond the fifth place there", "is the question of parties or quality of life issues i think the only way to deal with those in the moment", "yeah", "yeah", "i noticed the noise complaints and law enforcement shows up to see who's there what they're doing how old they are", "i think that's improved a lot over the past year", "i think outstanding meetings we have right now is the impact of the clearing on the volume of water and whether or not that is being redirected away from retention ponds", "and we've had somebody who is in the party has certainly much less hopefully continues to get state", "so we see you at the end of june", "so did we cover all the relevant issues here tonight yeah", "okay", "why don't we move on to do you wanna do mobs can i just have an update on mobs", "i've dealt with this i think you've dealt with this several times", "and we actually went to court and that's why we're back here", "cause we wanted to impose penalties", "and we're at the cusp of imposing penalties", "there was a court hearing that", "actually jeff just wait jackie were you waiting for something specific i'm sorry you were being so patient", "no i just i just wasn't there", "i didn't want you to have to leave if you were expect", "if you were wanting to address something specific", "oh no thank you", "okay sorry jeff", "thanks for coming so we even had a court hearing about imposing penalties and the judge basically said you've got one more chance to figure this out", "and neil lightener went up and visited with his mobs and actually was able to do an inspection and said hmm it it barely meets any qualification for a separate living unit because it has a very basic kitchenette which consisted of cabinets didn't even have a sink", "it didn't have a bathroom", "oh my god so how does that mean so the when when you rent to somebody not related to you they're supposed to have a separate space i guess unless you're subletting which is probably different", "somebody who's gonna have the master lease the property", "but if you if you're an owner occupied unit you should have a separate apartment", "and that apartment through the health code has to meet certain minimum qualifications to be accepted as an apartment and this unit does not get it was being rented as an apartment", "so when certain issues would come up the tenants would call right preston and say it's a landlord tenant issue because it doesn't meet the state code for this to be habitable or whatever whatever the terminology might be", "so that's how we got involved which is if you're going to have an apartment you have to get a permit", "the structure is capable of being permitted as an apartment", "there's nothing in our bylaws that would prohibit that", "all it would take is a building a building and a zoning permit to get it done", "so the issue was are you gonna file this and get this legal or not neil spoke to her offered to fill out the paperwork come have her sign it", "he did that when we went there she said no i refuse to sign it", "i'm just going to remove the cabinet and it will no longer be rented so that's where we stand", "so mike marksbury has written a letter that says you have to show proof that this is no longer that the cabinets are removed within two weeks or we'll go back to court and there's a status conference checkup on it yes so let me understand even in spite of state code or anything so somebody can rent an apartment that doesn't have a functional kitchen and call it an apartment if you're renting it to family right i don't know all the rules but and i'm sure people break the rules all the time but it's gotta be some sort well this the outcome that we wanted", "we wanted it to not be in a like we really kind of well we wanted compliance one way or the other", "i mean she could she could either upgrade it to code and continue to rent it or or or not rent", "well that's where i was going", "upgrade code means upgraded it to have a kitchen or not", "yes yeah", "and and there might've been a couple of other things there i think there it was up upgrade to the minimum requirements for a rentable apartment apartment family or to stop renting it", "and she chose chosen the latter", "the problem is is that the this we've gone through this before", "yes", "and so the point is is to make sure that this actually is no longer rented", "right so to date we've spent one thousand two hundred and sixty in attorney's fees which includes court and sheriff's fees", "that's why you can't just issue one hundred a day", "you have to have costs so these are really our costs", "so if we were going to if if we were going to input if she doesn't do do what she says she's going to do within two weeks we can start imposing fines right", "to recoup essentially our investment in going to court", "correct", "and also enforcing our rules i mean yes", "yes okay", "alright", "i'm sorry so we've been through this before", "yes last summer", "well the first violation happened in two thousand and eleven and then ms mobs wasn't there anymore", "i believe her son was living there", "everything was fine for a while", "and i think we had a couple more problems", "then she came back and then a couple of more tenants had issues", "the original violation was also for the debris in the yard", "also", "it was debris and evidently they couldn't you couldn't maintain a habitable temperature in the unit in the middle of the winter", "no different", "okay", "yeah but no this is not the first time we've seen this", "yeah", "alright but i think we're done with this one for now", "alright so let's move on to the cell tower update", "so the on just a quick update on detail that i had said that the hearing is scheduled for the week of june 11th but not final", "now it looks like it's going to be the week of june 16th", "it's still no final date", "it's probably going to be the 18th", "i will be the town's only witness i think we're there was no additional prefinal test to no testimony from the applicant", "so i think the only thing we have left is to do a rebuttal to what they filed with their application", "and then we'll have the hearing", "they intend to rebut some of the things we've said when we have the hearing it'll essentially be like like a trial and will be witnesses will be examined the cross examined", "and then there'll be that on at and t the hot issue is jericho road one thousand nine hundred and twenty five jericho road", "the they're proposing a tower", "we heard this at the march meeting with at and t", "it's a standard one hundred and forty foot tower", "i think one person at the hearing objected to it", "i've put several notices on front porch forum seeking comments and those comments are attached", "it quite honestly is hard to find a line of objection to this tower", "the decision is really the same issue as with vtl", "it minimizes our zoning regulations and takes the control away from the municipality and gives it to the public service board which is an entity of the state", "but that's not a failure of any of these applications", "that's something we object to in the way that the state has chosen to proceed", "it's already pressed there's legal precedent for upholding the not honoring a town's zoning regulations", "unfortunately yeah", "well i'm looking at the comments specific to this location", "people at least a small set of people are saying they want the tower", "so i'm not sure we're looking for reasons to oppose it", "if people are in support of it what the issue is", "the principle of her son", "well but yeah but this is this is where things get sticky because jeff i believe you said there was one person who objected to it", "yes", "what level of public opposition to something do we need to see before we take actions spend down money and et cetera et cetera", "i got", "now the longer this goes on", "and the more we learn about the public service board's unwillingness and frankly refusal to honor local governments opinions and not even hear like they're like we don't even want to hear anything that has to do with zoning because we've already made a determination on that", "so you have to come up with some other reasons", "that issue is moved", "and what is that other reason it all comes back to zoning and aesthetics", "well all right", "but one person's aesthetics is another person's whatever i'm i'm frankly tired of spending money on this", "then give up", "i know two months ago i was like we gotta do what we did for one we have to do for another", "but now that this is starting to get more and more expensive i'm getting i'm just i'm feeling like we're fighting a losing battle and there's no hope in sight because the legislature has didn't make any changes to the act to the statute", "and we're at the end of the legislative session nothing's changed", "and these are going to be decided in sixty days", "i'm done", "i think we have to acknowledge that that we have not been completely unsuccessful in that we at least have standing at the upcoming detail here", "i agree", "i don't think we're going to get anywhere but i don't know until we go through that that we know that everything is quite as moot as we're assuming that it is here", "is that fair to say that is fair to say", "we do have a deadline this week to request a hearing and raise a substantial issue on this town", "on the retail one no no", "that one was already going to a hearing if we want to you mean on the eighteen yeah on the jericho", "this is the thing that makes me crazy", "but we can't", "the substantial issue can't be zoning", "well well i think", "well it can be actually they they consented and that really is the issue we've got", "it's whatever got us in the door before", "i think the way we were talking about this is is do we have a mechanism for getting in the door then", "the basic issue of the superseding of our local zoning is sort of the the core bug in our ear", "if you will", "now whether we act on that or not is another question but do we even have a a route to to remediation and the the short term answer is yeah we do", "you know within that we have here how costly is well that's the question asked now recently we've been thinking that if we did it once we could kind of cook you know cookie cutter it and just more or less do global search and replace", "fetal for adnd and send it in again but well", "i think you'd save upfront time because we filed two letters for detail which were substantial investment by the attorney", "if we filed one for for this one we would probably be a cookie cutter of the substantial issue letter", "but going through this i've seen what we have to do which is we have to develop our own prefiled testimony which may be similar maybe not", "we have to rebut their arguments", "we have to spend time reviewing their testimony and then we'll have a hearing in some hours before we even get to hear yeah", "at this point if you if you look at jeff's memo we're spending close to eight thousand just on the retail one", "and and believe me i mean you know where i was coming from originally on this i don't want to spend money on a wild goose chase", "it's just that i think we have a responsibility to make sure it's a wild goose chase", "it would be nice if we could figure out how the prefile how the hearing goes before we made a decision but it sounds like we can't", "well we can put the letter but we don't have to follow through with it right well you can file your objection", "i think you reserved the right to withdraw that later time", "yeah", "i just i'm", "so does that keep us in the game until after the 16th at low cost", "and the principle here is our local zoning but i'm with you you know i'm really reluctant to spend six thousand again that we've already lost", "and that's no way taking a stand on the appropriateness of any of these towers", "it's do we have the means of effecting a change yes", "regardless of what that changes is", "i'm less and less convinced we do", "and i as am i", "responsible use of our resources", "exactly exactly", "i think we're all kind of in the same general direction", "and i'm also this is tempered by we're getting we don't have a group of people saying absolutely", "don't put that cell tower in this location", "we have people saying do put that cell tower in this location", "yeah", "but and that and just just to cover everything again it's the principle", "a break i said there are two principles there", "there's the aesthetics the neighbors that sort of the citizens opinion", "the zoning principle is one but if we don't if the zoning principal is doomed to failure and we don't have a group of citizens", "right well in that case let's say this worked out much better than we can possibly expect right now", "and on the 16th for the retail one we actually", "prevail", "prevail", "well for the 18th one there's no reason that we couldn't go in and say no problem", "go ahead", "go through our zoning process and or even or even yeah whatever", "but but it's defending the principle and the right to to affect the decision", "and okay", "i guess yes", "but on the jericho road one separate from the beetle and the cochran road which we haven't made a decision on the cochran road and the williams hill road is is that we don't have the objection to it so what is the why are we objecting to it why are we bringing up a concern when we have and i'm not to dismiss the one gentleman who who made who made the point but but the overwhelming majority of people is saying that they're in support of it", "so are we with the minority the very small minority", "well that's but that's and i see where you're going with this", "and that's a really good question to ask but it's a process", "and what i'm saying is is we may find out after the 16th that we don't even have to worry about that because we're not going to get anywhere", "so i i have no problem with submitting a letter", "it basically a carbon copy of what we submitted period", "and then we take the net step", "whatever the lowest cost way of keeping in the gates", "so you're willing to request intervention status and raise a significant issue of our zoning similar to detail and that's as far as we will go pending further information from the other process", "and what's the estimated cost of doing that is that something we need to well the estimate the cost of filing the letter will probably be in the neighborhood of six hundred to seven hundred", "outside of three thousand four hundred and thirty five hours", "that's", "even though it's essentially the same letter that's already been drafted well i'm asking for the attorney", "i we're still gonna have the peripheral stuff to do", "you can't just say here you go change the line", "yeah", "alright", "so anyway i know but i think that is the i mean i'm feeling that's the appropriate course of action", "and then after the 16th hopefully we will it'll be very clear what we need to do", "yeah", "the focus of this letter is we want to enforce our zoning and if our zoning process gets high again what's the point of spending money fighting more and more fights about losing", "ms cayman the public service board is bullying us", "it's also bullying towns with housing", "with the front desk coming from canada", "i don't think we should spend a lot of money but do you think that if we fight back a little bit the public service board will notice you know they're noticing middlebury and cornwall and shoreham and monkton and maybe they don't care", "maybe they're arrogant and they don't care what we do", "you know they're so corporate minded but i don't know", "well they're are noticing and we do have the just like they've had those hearings in in addison county", "we got we had a hearing on the first one which is good but we may find i think like the folks are finding that it's", "you get a hearing but you don't get to change", "right so i think we have a very high bar for what a significant issue is", "it should be noted that that two hundred and forty eight process was set to expire at the end of this june and the legislature voted to renew it", "i believe the governor if he hasn't signed it already", "so it's our legislatures we can legislators that we can now blame the state is reaffirmed its stance that the state should be in charge of issuing certificates of public good for these projects and not not the towns", "there is a theme across this with our you know", "do we need a motion to for you to do the thing i would like a motion for an additional two thousand five hundred on detail and for six hundred on a check over summer", "seconded", "any discussion all in favor of i think we just are talking about approving three thousand one hundred combined for the purposes of pursuing these issues", "please say aye", "aye", "i'm sorry the amendment i don't want to bleed over", "i want like a real tight limit on the jericho road", "i don't want to spend more than yeah six hundred i think it was okay fair enough", "it was two thousand five hundred for vtl and six hundred for i mean it was just kind of hold our feet to the fire", "okay good", "so as amended all in favor please say aye", "aye aye", "post it's unanimous", "and just for the benefit of the public there's been no movement on cochran road that i've been made aware of so there was nothing to report", "alright moving right along the town center parking lot paving", "i feel like all we do is spend money", "well that is all we do i have an old plan of fitting the parking lot with gold", "or so i thought", "what was that i said i had a bold plan to pave the parking lot with gold", "yes i was impressed", "so to redo the town center parking lot which serves a town center chittinden the school district the post office and the library it's going to be about one hundred and eighty thousand", "i was hoping for one hundred thousand but the reason it cost so much is because there is no real base", "the asphalt has been laid directly over the original ground and it heaves in the winter we're in the spring actually and breaks apart and creates dangerous safety conditions", "and we've been battling it for many years", "so both pete goslin and mike wisell tell me the only way to correct that is to excavate a foot of material out of there replace it with a good bed of road gravel compacted and then pave over top of that", "they did something similar out in front here in front of the post office where the that that area used to look a lot different had different concrete panels and they dug out there and even into the entryway where the asphalt is put down road gravel and compacted it you can see it's remained mostly very stable since they did that", "so obviously that's a solution doing that adds an additional one hundred thousand to the cost of just paving it", "but the kicker is we don't have that much money in our town seven rent fund", "we get about eleven thousand a month", "but right now we only have about one hundred and nine thousand we do have some expenses that are going to come out in june", "so in order to do that project this year i would have to run into deficit for about nine months or take out a shortterm loan", "alternatively i talked to pete goslin and he said that we could use fifty thousand of the town's paving paving budget for the parking lot", "and that would reduce the burden on the town center rent fund", "but the taxpayers generally would be paying for the upkeep of the parking lot at that point", "and where but he needs fifty thousand to do paving", "so would it just be oh it would over the winter it would go back into his fund does that how we would have no no no not a reimbursement", "i mean we could talk about that", "we could reimburse later", "yeah", "but he's really going to do good to be done with this payment", "yeah", "yeah i", "keep it clean", "i'm also just worrying about wondering about the timing of this because there's been some discussion of with with the development of the creamery parcel of of having an access to the parking lot here", "and i'm just wondering if it makes sense for us to go and do this now as opposed to waiting in maybe having that be part of whatever larger deal is on them", "it's a negotiating point that could be used with whatever developer finally picks up the project", "oh sure", "i can appreciate that", "my concern is the parking lot is in rough shape that continues to get worse", "i'd say you know we could maybe hold off one more year patch it up and hold off for a year we can patch it up", "it won't hold", "it'll be a hot patch and it might last until march i mean i i chris i totally totally understand where you're coming from but i don't think we're going to get a developer to go ahead and throw in two hundred thousand", "well not the whole amount but i mean some kind of", "plus the plus the plan to do it i think is what chris's big point is i mean if we pave it one way and then there's a proposal that slightly alters it we lose that opportunity so can we can we cause we're going to be getting bids probably the goal is to do it before winter to do this before winter", "correct so can we can we put a timeline on this and say i'm just throwing out an idea that if we you know if by late july we don't have any proposals then we'd go forward with this", "they'll give us a couple more months to have some some more reserve funds in the bank", "proposals for the cranium parcel proposals for the cranium parcel", "if we don't have proposals from the cranium parcel by x date or late july early august to to evaluate", "then we then we go through and because we still will have until the end of october november to get this done and it will give us more months", "that'll give us six more months of revenue from the post office which means the less money we will need and it loans and loan or shortterm interests to pay for it", "but is that going to drive up the cost of the project if we do paving then no i don't think there's going to be much of a difference", "so mike wiser still has to design the project take him for a while to do that you know to the end of june i can come back to or just the bid spec there's not a lot of engineering", "it's just to get the bid spec ready and ready to go to bed", "i'll bring it back", "first meeting the july for authorization to issue the the bid", "we'll put it out for a month we'll get proposals", "we could award in august similar to depot street and do it on the same timeline", "how upset are the post office and the other tenants about the current condition i've had several complaints", "i mean the post officer office postmaster has talked to me regularly about the condition of the parking lot", "actually i think his section there is really the first section of the entire parking lot", "so the library doesn't complain somebody who fell and broke their leg or something or any other notices being pointed out that it's deficient", "well i know people have fallen", "they haven't made made any claims but i know personally people have fallen on okay so so if we hold off on putting out bids until the end of july early august that's just a month later then the time when you just said can we do that in hopes that maybe we'll get some some cranium parcel stuff", "we'll know more we have more information if cranium parcel stuff looks like there's going to be an egress there", "then we we'll talk to that end", "we'll talk to that end yes", "if this goes out to necessarily being able say this is the timeframe that we're looking at so that either you have that right", "well i think the concern is we wouldn't do the project if it looked like there was going to be a proposal to alter the traffic pattern here", "well you've already had the objection by some of the neighbors about allowing a pass through here", "but we still have the ability to make a decision on that too i mean i'm you'll be able to make a decision on a lot of things but if this is going out for proposal which i would hope rather than the town for doing this when you had suggested the date later so that they can just say this is the date we're looking at right here", "my only my only reason for wanting to push it out a little bit is in is to account for maybe changes to the design based on cranium creswell design", "that that was my not not for starting or stopping", "i recognized that you could put a bed out in june and say we're not going to start it yet until october", "no that's what my thinking was was to account for any other proposals that may be out there to make adjustments not for access", "if it needed several loud has to go through some massive change", "absolutely", "oh yeah", "and so that would be the only consideration would be if somebody if a developer and there may be myriad options and one of them that includes it and six of them don't", "is that we could say oh well it's just not an option", "we're going to go forward on ours on our timeline period", "and then if a contractor wants to do something then it's on their", "but i agree", "this is a tough area to potentially have in an egress although it could turn into another green state when people are trying to avoid the light", "yeah", "yeah", "so are we done with this for tonight i think there's this", "is this worth our signature do you need this to do anything i mean it is what it is", "i'll authorize mike to design it and i'll bring him back at the end of july and we'll talk about it again", "okay", "let's move on", "rbhlp loan referral", "well we say it easily look for last right so david sandra and i have met twice since town meeting with firms and it was with the champlain housing trust to discuss them the broader issue of which is very clear", "for them it means a fifteen year deferral at a minimum and nothing less", "for us it means the political objective of saying we we promised our town we would have a revolving loan fund", "we're not convinced why that cant happen", "so you know i remember looking somewhat closely at this and i had a couple of questions having to do with their how the sort of present the financial presentation worked", "some of the facts that they presented were low occupancy but it's currently a hundred percent that they previously had high heating costs due to fuel oil which has now been moved since november due to gas", "so those things seem more relevant in the past than the future", "there's the modest valuation of the pieces of property was something like sixty two thousand per unit which i don't know how the formula works how that set up but that seemed like modest contribution to tax rules", "and then there was the depreciation which i wasn't i wasn't clear how that was managed and i don't remember remember these auditing and budgeting and listening and appreciation", "which let's be honest is a tax credit given to them by the government", "they're listing that as a cost", "so i'm not comfortable", "which frankly if i actually", "when i work with water systems and i see them listing depreciation as an expense and they're actually funding it i'm cheering because that means they're actually putting some little amount of money into cap into reserve funds", "you know they're accounting for future needs", "but the reality is is that a lot of systems a lot of entities won't actually have cash on hand equal to depreciation", "so that means they're eating into their going over budget every year", "well so if you showed the depreciation as a cost then where's the money it's it's it's an accounting term", "no but then that the question", "did they have a fund did they have a capital fund that they were putting that depreciation", "so then the reserve funds are below their budgeted fund", "exactly", "so that means the depreciation is they're not actually taking it", "they're not actually expensing it", "they're it's they're eating into their budget", "it's showing it's a way for them to show that they're not in the red", "but where's the money going then no but they're counting it as an expense but the money isn't showing", "it's going into paying for maintenance it's going to not evidently yeah", "the exhibit we saw and maybe i misremember this was it looked like it was an expense and it was expensed out but there was no balance of a fund balance", "so either it goes somewhere else not to this organization this site but they were they were showing the loss", "right", "they do have after depreciation they showed a loss yes", "yes", "before depreciation is my question", "it before depreciation they'd show the", "if nobody has it handy i've got the do you see where i'm gong depreciation is money that goes if you're showing that as a cost then it's going somewhere", "it's not here", "i'm right there with you", "right so is it cash positive or not exactly", "it is is cash positive", "yeah", "so i just still have questions", "i am very strongly in support of affordable high quality housing", "our discussion of the apartment recently is instructed i don't want people renting i don't think that's the issue here", "without kitchens but yeah", "i think we're all in supportive of of high quality affordable housing it's it's", "but i think i think there was broad consensus that there was a commitment made to the town at the time that that we'd reenter into this arrangement and that the that the that this was a a grant that was to be used in used again for in order to maximize the amount of highquality affordable housing that was available to town residents", "and the question before us is is by turning over basically agreeing with with the request does that best serve that purpose and it's not clear to me that it does", "it's not clear to me either", "well i'm frustrated by this", "i'm frustrated", "fred thomas as well had june heston had volunteered to work on a committee to talk about this have they gotten together so they could tap this resource to work with this project no they haven't", "initially david and i offered to to meet see if we could understand the issue better", "wait i'm sorry", "i wasn't aware of that maybe that was before i think jared had offered before she left the county", "and fran", "i think you may have been granted", "i talked with fran i've heard from fran", "i think it's going to be really difficult for us to get us through this and negotiate something without champlain here", "i think it means some envoys with some continued work", "i still was sort of stuck on the depreciation on one hand and also the idea of the money coming back for other purposes", "one of the concerns i've heard from folks outside the room was is the money going it might not be a bad thing but my revenue is coming out of this project going to another part of chittenden county which is not a bad thing for chittenden county but may not be particularly helpful for richmond", "so so perhaps it is prudent to to see if folks other than us who have a lot of work to do and regular meetings to to to work this out to come to some kind of conclusion because i think we're all not comfortable with a fifteen year deferred or indefinitely deferred deferred program", "but we also we also are uncomfortable with putting a an affordable housing company for lack of a better term in jeopardy", "so so we need", "it needs more than what we can do in a half an hour once a month", "correct", "there may be other i don't know if compromise is but other things that might be negotiated what else could they as an organization do i feel they can we", "chair can we what can be legally described as affordable housing sets rates for record and the rents there already at the upper end of that bracket", "they're saying we can't pull enough money out of this to pay this long without raising the rents which would put them out of affordability practice", "i'm not convinced seeing the numbers that they gave for industry to fees salaries expenses", "we don't have a we don't have sufficient information at this point to make a determination about the longterm viability is project", "as it was presented to us back when we approved the use of the initial funds so that we do need that additional input", "so i'm with whoever said it that we should call on on fran or june to see whether they are willing to fulfill that initial offer and do a little followup there", "because what we've did is a new status of wellpaying lawyers well paid lobbyist wellpaid cpas and you know they can they can put these figures together put it right back in our labs saying these are our numbers showing you that this won't work", "can i see it first so i feel like we have a year because didn't we just extended it for a year", "we have seven months", "okay", "so we have until next march but january next january to do this", "cause remember they came to the light board late in the year and this is again in april", "right", "before they would get their final yearbook", "so this needs to we need the results this this summer", "okay", "can we can we ask june and fran and maybe there are others who are interested", "okay", "you did just great that was fine", "alright so can we go to reports yes unfortunately i was not able to make the economic development committee meeting last friday", "i did not have an update", "and i was invited but i also couldn't make it", "i had to be at my office at seven thirty in the morning which is the same time but i will go with the next time", "great you think that's going to be a problem on a regular basis", "i don't think so", "paul sent me an email and he was like we're meeting and i told him i couldn't go unfortunately but i'll plan for the next time", "please note the financial reports", "we are still trying to reconcile the final taxes", "taxes are still coming in", "that will be final final until the end of next month but it looks like the collections are going to be higher than what we thought from last year", "and not by just the little", "there's there's an issue with the homestead rebate", "and we issue we set the tax rate in july goes on the tax bills and then the home state rebates get finalized for individuals", "and it it looks like more people are paying the nonhomestead rate than what the tax rate predicted", "so it goes to our favor and we don't owe it to the schools we keep", "i don't think so cause connie looked into it", "she's talked to people at the state they've assured her that that happens sometimes", "but i don't have the final answer on it", "and our cpa is aware of it and it looks like we're going to be collecting more than we anticipated", "which is better than well i mean this is the thing is when i added the delinquent tax amount into the collections and then compare that to budgets twenty that you know i mean this assuming that we do recoup significant amount of the liquid tax which is higher than expected also", "i mean that's a that's a lot of money", "it's not going to be twenty", "and on the overall rate i think we're looking at more like maybe five to six when all is said and done", "i think this still needs to be cleaned up a little bit", "sometimes it's very difficult to pull apart", "what's what's going on in the computer system until", "does effectively increase the number by twenty the next time i wasn't there i was like just happened do you want to do you have any any comments about the delinquency rate no i think the overall delinquency rate is about on par where it's been which is running their belt three to four which is not not bad at all", "okay", "it's slightly higher", "so when you collect delinquent taxes it's doesn't have anything to do with the delinquency rate", "so the delinquency rates only what's on the current taxes and you don't really see that because they're not delinquent until the end of the year", "so it's hard to show you what the delinquency rate is until it's closed so when you're collecting delinquent taxes you're you're not affecting your delinquency rate", "you're just collecting what's due it's present going back or just delinquent could really just really just collected", "right so when we talk about the rate it's how how would the percentage on collected for the current year", "so even though you've gotten outstanding primary balances it doesn't add up to what we talk about when we say the rate otherwise with the budget i think that we're we're doing okay", "again the big over expenditures are with the some of the town of administration line items for professional services and legal highway has some high expenses", "the we had two claims for federal highway which is a is a change from prior years last during irene all the highway damage was covered under fema", "this time they split it out we had to apply to federal highway for aid for ninety thousand of damages", "i don't know if we'll collect that this year", "i said that ninety thousand i'm sorry", "it's more like twenty thousand", "i don't know if we'll collect that and this year or whether that will be next year", "so we'll have an outstanding receivable on that i think", "okay", "otherwise i think operationally speaking the towns doing very well", "is there any other questions on the financial documents i don't think so it'd be great", "we should look at it more closely", "yeah yeah definitely", "alright well let's move on", "department reports", "i think the only department report again is the police report", "did you have an entertaining police report i know i was like we did get a grant from our insurer which is a property and casualty insurance fund", "that's run by plct that's for fifty of the cost of replacement flotation devices at the water treatment plant and some other safety gear", "because it was noted a safety inspection two years ago that they were deteriorating and needed to be replaced", "this is in case somebody falls into the wastewater", "yes", "well because of the turbulence of the activated sludge operation you could sink yeah", "it'd be very hard to stay afloat and it's not a pretty way to go", "and we are going to have a regional concerns meeting", "now i should have written down the date it's in june", "i think it's the fourth monday in june the snipe arland broke the bridge on route two", "over the sniper went broke is due to be replaced", "not this year probably ten this year two to three years from now haven't designed it", "they've got several options to holding a meeting", "it will be in our library", "they'll talk about the design options and traffic flow and what they need to do and what the community's needs are because they could either shut down the road detour down cochran road or they could do a temporary bridge", "and the needs of the community are really going to dictate where they go with that okay", "and we'll be updating more on this but you'll see in there they've made several amounts months to have a lot of interested people that are concerned about route to traffic flow come to that meeting", "okay and so just to clarify this is the bridge replacement and and the effects of that are a couple of years out the repaving of two in that section has now been moved up to well the what there they call them maintenance code which is just an inch over the top to smooth it out will happen this summer okay", "i've been assured that by several people including representative anna brine and that'll be fast", "i mean they move quite quickly", "i mean they're not grinding anything right it's just an overlay the larger work which will be similar to what they're doing in waterbury now are going to be doing in bolton this summer", "won't happen here for at least another two years", "so i think in my in my wisdom i would say they should replace this bridge at the same time they do the major workup to if they're going to shut it down", "but i don't work there", "it's complicated you know there are things that we don't know about have different contracts", "and finally i get a good news", "on richmond rescue", "won the ambulance service of the year award", "this week is ems week on thursday", "we're going to go off to montpellier and receive that award", "i think that's a good pat on the back for them", "they've worked hard to improve their operation get things straightened out", "keep it wellrun wellmaintained and they get this award", "if it's that's very nice", "congratulations", "well taylor called me today saying he might not be able to make this", "well a cat in the the award", "okay great", "and that's all the reports i have this evening", "nobody have anything else pertinent have we heard anything about the new signal i've actually used it", "i've used it also it's been re timed", "there's a much longer it's probably twice as long which is not terribly significant but seven or eight seconds as opposed to three seconds", "there's a delay", "so when you push the signal everybody stops and it does feel subjectively different to me", "but i'm wondering if we've heard anything", "i haven't heard anything from any residents although i'm sure people appreciate it", "it does provide for a stop pattern so that you get more than halfway across before traffic starts coming at you", "that's always a good thing", "do you have something well it was the loan pay executing the loan but you probably have to do that and can we do we do it tonight or if you want to push it i don't want to push it but i'm just wondering if we it's because it's on the agenda", "so at our water and sewer commissioning meeting we have this we have this loan for the final design of the chlorine contact time", "it's a loan that we need to execute", "so we have to sign it", "and we didn't feel like the water and sewer commission had the authority to do that", "we thought it was the select board's authority to execute a loan", "so we differed in our water and sewer commission meeting to the select board to do it", "and this is", "this is so that we can seek reimbursement against expenses that have already been incurred and and expenses that have already been approved by the state", "and this will all go into the bigger this all goes into the the loan", "right right", "so chris hasn't seen this you can take a look at it", "the loan amount is for", "it's more than twenty right", "eighty four thousand one hundred and fifty seven", "so what that includes is that includes reimbursing the big loan from a many years ago the appropriated portion of it that was used to do preliminary design pouring contact time", "so that's a little bit there", "some of the money that's already gone into designing the storage tank and the approved final sort of construction phase engineering on the it includes the chlorine contact time tank right yeah the chlorine contact time project", "does this have the effect of moving", "yes", "yes it will be reset the date but fortunately it will reset the date so instead of two thousand and fifteen that we'll have to start repaying", "it'll get reset two years after that's substantially complete", "so two thousand and sixteen", "we'll get a year i'm loving him for more but being the person who's in charge of the program", "all right insider i don't know how much we have so", "so you want to you want to move we do sign on this i move we execute r3302 in the amount of", "eighty four thousand one hundred and fifty seven and", "any discussion would be all right", "all in favor aye", "aye", "all opposed okay you have quite a bit of signing", "get your can i sign first i don't know but ten minutes should be good", "yep", "let's while we're doing that why don't we move ahead to minutes", "i was not here for this one and taylor is not here", "so i guess we get i got bear", "barely large enough group to to approve these", "does anybody have any comments or changes on the minutes of may 5th two thousand and fourteen something like that", "i'm gonna move the minutes of may 5th two thousand and fourteen", "second", "all right", "any comments or questions regarding saying hearing none", "all in favor of approving the minutes of may 5th two thousand and fourteen for the richmond select board please say aye aye", "and one abstention and they are approved", "then we've got a couple of purchase orders or a purchase order", "is that right it's actually two purchase orders for the same issue which is triaxle dump trucking to move the gravel plan forward but it's under two different lines", "so i have there to do purchase orders to the same company but using two different fundings", "why why is it he's using equipment rental and gravel plant", "oh okay", "i think he probably could have done it under one and just listed the account separately but he chose to do two purchase orders", "do you have sorry to pile it all the a cover page do you want us to initial these well what you do is you take a look and if you agree then you would make a motion to authorize signing a purchase order two thousand three hundred and eighty three", "to newton trucking in the amount of eleven zero", "for tri axle trucking", "and if it's approved and chris signs it", "good good", "go ahead", "it's a good thing to get used to doing it", "all right", "so a motion to approve the purchase orders to", "that's different", "newton trucking construction", "one is thirteen and one is eleven zero", "could you list the numbers two thousand three hundred and eighty three is two thousand three hundred and eighty five for thirteen thousand for triaxle trucking to remove the gravel", "and then there's a second one two thousand three hundred and eighty three for a eleven thousand", "for the same purpose", "so he's made a motion for both", "all right", "any discussion on either purchase order alright", "all in favor of approving a purchase order two thousand three hundred and eighty three and purchase order two thousand three hundred and eighty five please say aye", "aye", "aye", "opposed both purchase orders are approved", "and i will sign them as soon as i'm done signing this thing", "all right", "end of year policy and prior year charges", "give me one second", "i need ashley to sign these items from prior meetings", "why didn't i cover it in this space well they were this one is a service officer from that came up and we will ask me these are the two policies that should have been", "i didn't circulate them", "am i the only one no nobody's signed", "oh", "so everybody has to sign", "okay", "and then for you", "so policy on the end of year policy has to do with", "how we handle charges from this fiscal year", "once we roll into the next fiscal year", "and this policy basically says between july 1st and august 31st you're allowed to charge prior year expenses to the prior year account and then it'll be closed", "so this would be for things like utilities or prior goods and services that we buy in june", "the bill doesn't come in until the end of july", "you don't want to charge that to the next year's fiscal budget", "we want it to go to fiscal year fourteen", "the accountant makes those adjustments but you have to have a cutoff date", "and we're sorry that the cutoff date is going to be the end of august", "and i think that's proven because sometimes we don't pay june bills until august", "makes sense to me", "any thoughts well you know i'm just i'm wrestling with cash approval sort of approach", "and so i haven't really thought this through", "i don't see the downside but", "it's something we've been doing anyway", "it's always happened but we never had a policy that specifically well it fits any parameters", "okay", "so it's basically okay what's your pleasure", "you want this are we just putting off the inevitable what do you mean i mean this is what we do", "are we planning are we just putting it into alright well why doesn't somebody move it so i'm sorry", "the dates again jeff", "well essentially the policy", "which should have been i'm sorry here", "it says invoice is paid after july 1st with dates prior to july 1st will continue to be entered utilizing the last year invoice procedure until the second pay period in august or when our trial balance is given to the auditors", "whichever comes first", "so moved second discussion", "all in favor", "aye", "aye yes sorry", "yes", "i just have one question jumping back to the conservation fund that payment for the conservation fund when they do the final the purchase", "you're not paying that until their due date right we're not paying this in the town until they had made their other deadlines", "cause they're also applying for a matching funds from the community housing something or other", "so if that falls through then the essentially the deal falls through is so they don't get any money until they're ready to go", "yeah that was my understanding of the sorry guys i gotta go", "okay well we need you to ensure we have no executive session", "and there's three of you to sign the warrant so right we can do it", "so everything's copacetic i assume there's a fifty cent error in one item which i corrected and i mentioned it to jeff i'll have conduct correct that too and okay good catch", "is that the only yeah it's all covered for the package", "here's the clip that goes with it", "i'll ask ashley another time but gentlemen do you know your summer vacation plans if you had such at this point would you mind sharing with me and the reason i'm asking is you know besides idle curiosity it's just anticipating that we may have something of the interim zoning quote who might later in the summer", "are you planning on missing any slight board meetings in july and august is what i'm getting at let me go through that one", "no no vacation", "wonderful", "june 23rd but that's that's my it's the 16th", "yeah", "i'm sorry i'm just skipping monday to monday through my cramped screen my screen was stolen with the rest of my ipad", "oh no really i saw that from sports oh i saw that too", "yeah that's that's awful its kinda my fault i left the car unlocked but still yeah it was right there", "where was the car jada's covered jeffersonville", "it was where jada's cover after jeffersonville", "i went in for fresh donuts and a sandwich after meeting with ashley on saturday", "yeah i'm not gonna miss any meetings i did my vacation in february so i think so we don't know", "this is just being prepared we don't know", "sounds good", "so are we all set here don't hit yourself", "i think we are discuss any items for next agenda", "we have a followup depending on the dr", "the toning issue that we discussed earlier", "well that won't happen until it's just like a ways away", "yeah at the earliest what else we have coming up that's timely or anything we want to just note before we depart", "the public hearing on the changes to section sixty eight are going to happen at the june 2nd meeting", "this is regarding that's the two minor amendments to the floodplain regulations", "at some point over the summer i expect the full rewrite of the zoning regulations to come to the select board", "again you'll have to go through the same procedure", "okay", "yeah it's likely to be more dense", "yeah it's a complete re rework of the sections", "okay and then as things if if when we get action on the criminal recusal", "yes", "that may have to be handled in special meetings", "i would recommend it because it will essentially be like a drb hearing you'll you'll have a public hearing", "you'll take comments", "you'll take testimony from the applicant", "chris think we're going to get some of the members of the interim zoning committee together to help claire rock write the staff report", "and we can talk about opinions on not only how well it fits with the zoning regulations that are in place but how well the project fits within the community as a whole and what what sort of the community member reaction from the village might be i want to also mention we did appoint two members to the recreation committee robin isabel and rabideau", "and they're been working on trying to put together a plan for a tennis court", "and she had wanted to speak at the june 2nd meeting", "well there was some conversation about the browns court fields was yes", "the brown's court ball field has been a ball field for over a hundred years", "there is some surplus space there although i'm not sure how much space there really is for a tennis court", "it might mean a redesign or a conversation about what we can do there", "and they are looking at that", "in my memory there was some substantial workup there to bring can i say the softball field closer to the standard of the baseball field in town it was in my within my sort of kids career", "i'm playing softball so it wasn't that long ago", "so that's my only sort of caution i'm a fan of tennis but i don't want to do it sacrifice the interests of softball to the fields", "right but you know how are we sort that out well it's good again to have a conversation because we need people to look at these issues or else they don't get looked at", "and the larger issue is really we we have in the general area and not just richmond but huntington bolton richmond maybe not hollinsburg i don't know but everything in jericho is full there's", "there's just no facilities", "there aren't enough ball fields around there aren't enough soccer fields or somebody who wants to play in the lacrosse", "they get they don't get a chance and other sports as well", "there's just not the opportunity", "there's no basketball courts and and volunteers green is out because the floodplain regulations that are in place now that have to be there prohibit any kind of development or that sort of thing", "yeah like soccer and so we we need more land for facilities", "what do we do just food for thought and you don't have to", "yeah i'm taking him to the school area right now actually in the back middle school elementary school", "if they expanded fields they don't have a flood problem", "and there is potentially space up there", "it's just", "i may suggest we adjourn and continue that discussions after", "so somebody wanna move", 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3567, 3920, 3829, 1147, 4169, 833, 7627, 1436, 9305, 1665, 1860, 930, 2193, 3740, 4023, 1327, 1293, 1582, 958], "label": ["okay good evening", "good evening and thank you all for coming out in the snowy weather to this public hearing on gateway rezoning", "before we begin if you haven't just found these they're over by the table and you should have the proposed changes discussion which is the actual language of what will be on the ballot if this goes forward", "and then also kind of a question and an answer section", "so if we wanna go there first we would like to open the meeting just by turning to the second page and discussing what's on this and why we're doing what we're doing", "the gateway zonings questions and answers right what the community wanted to be said", "i can give a little i can give a little history on why we're doing this perfect", "and then we're gonna add in with the different expertise on the select board", "so the primary reason for some of the amendments that were proposed really had to do with the water extension and really the combination of the two at the same time", "as many of you know those in town their water rates have increased", "there was a creamery site and the system used to have a creamery that used to use the water which balanced off the rates and kept them lower", "and for the last twenty years has been closed and there's some big adjustments had to be made", "and we're kind of at a point now we have an opportunity maybe to increase the water line out to route two", "in order to do so though we also need users to come onto that line", "so there's a combination of wanting to work with the town people and those on the water to really look at how we can make it more affordable", "not just now but in the future and in doing so how do we also ensure that we can have more water users and in doing so also there was a lot of time that was taken by the planning commission to look at the current zoning laws", "look at the town plan and be very thoughtful over the last six months about how they can make some changes to encourage some business that still fits with the character of our town", "but also would bring some economic development in a zone that's zoned the gateway zone", "and there's definitions of it in here is zoned for economic development in certain areas", "so they did talk to some different people that were interested in developing and there's only a few areas that can be developed", "and some of the suggestions that they gathered from that and other people really helped them inform them on the changes that we're gonna be talking about today", "so this was a twopronged approach", "it's really looking at the burden of water costs on people in town and how can we look towards our future how can we increase the water line in an area where we know we have an opportunity for some economic growth in a very thoughtful way i wanna be clear that it says in the zoning that any development needs to fit within the character of our town", "so that leaves a lot of leeway for the review board development review board to ensure that whatever does go out there does fit with the character of our town", "so there's a lot of thoughtful a thoughtful process that it did occur", "there were public hearings but we understand there's a lot of people here that we need to listen to some more of what people in town have to say about the proposed changes", "and there's also some misinformation out there as well", "so we're hoping tonight we can inform people more about what the changes are what they might mean and have a real fruitful discussion about where we go because what's great about our town is people are concerned and they're so involved", "so that's really why we moved along this path i think and maybe jeff you can talk more to the water and the reasoning behind the two kind of going along the same path and wanting to do them along the same time", "because it makes sense financially if we're gonna expand the water to also do some of the rezoning at a parallel track", "so that's kind of why we're at where we're at", "and we realize too and i have to tell you i learned a lot about the gateway in this whole process and i know even starting from where is it what is it has it been zoned for commercial right now it can be used for commercial and residential currently", "a lot of the things that we've heard that people are nervous about could already go in right now", "so we wanna have", "provide information and have a discussion about some of those very specific changes that were suggested", "so if you go through the q and a number two we kind of skipped forward to number two", "and it really talks about the primary purpose of the amendments is to increase the potential for commercial development within the mixed use zone", "and that's allowing for some increased flexibility and location of new buildings", "and we're not the planning commission is not proposing changes to the overall boundaries", "so the gateway isn't expanding in any way", "it's just within the gateway there's some expansion", "do we wanna talk a little bit more about it can you you might just point to the map and okay a reminder that that's the gateway", "so we put up some maps up here and we had hoped to pass them all out but at least they're up here", "so you can see where it is and can someone describe it goes all the way over to the mobile home parks on one hundred and seventeen or well not really", "it goes out to the park and ride essentially", "the park and ride", "so it's between the old meter machine and up to the park and ride essentially", "okay and just along with that when we talk about water and those two are together in this we're proposing that would go along the extension of the water line would go along that too all the way up to the mobile home park which i mentioned", "that's one hundred and seventeen yeah", "it is important to note that it's only that green area", "so if you're coming into richmond it's on your left", "if you're leaving richmond it's on your right", "none of these changes affect any property", "that would be those fields or about three acres where the chiropractic office is right now", "so are there any questions just about what area we're talking about okay and then if we just move onto number three these are the specific changes that are being recommended by the planning commission", "so the maximum building size and right now the square footage maximum size was ten thousand square feet and it's increased to seventeen thousand square feet", "if the setback requirements are met and there's quite a few setback requirements", "i don't know if they have the setback requirements right in here but i think they have some people from the planning commission", "but for the seventeen thousand square foot building if someone should build something like that i believe it's two hundred", "two hundred feet", "two hundred feet that it needs to be setback from route two", "so just to clarify and i want", "yes footprint i thought with the entire building", "okay", "that's perfect yeah thank you", "and please if i misrepresent something please raise your hand and add in so can you clarify that yeah so the footprint would be the size of the building on the ground", "you would have the possibility of building to thirty five feet", "so you could have seventeen thousand square foot on one floor and then seventeen thousand on another floor", "the two stories", "two stories correct", "the two stories is the limit", "so reminder that height limit is partly based on fire protection in the absence of a man or a truck in the town of richmond", "correct yeah", "we sometimes forget that is one of the limiting factors", "is there can you tell us only seventeen thousand square feet is we will why don't we just walk through these and then we'll come up to those pictures over there with a", "and i just wanna clarify there's currently only two locations that could likely have a building of that size", "so we'll talk about that as well", "and then there's removing of the five thousand square foot maximum requirement for light manufacturing business and professional offices and research laboratory", "and then the five thousand maximum is retained for retail and restaurant uses", "and there's a statement in there which remains a statement of prohibiting of big box stores", "i think that's a big concern for all of us and that remains in the zoning that that's not allowed", "so when you increase the square footage i think there was concern but we still maintain that no big box stores", "if you go onto the next page we talk about the roof pitch", "and i just wanna add a little and i have been learning as i go as well that in talking to some developers if you do have a seven a building over ten thousand square feet or a pitched roof is really not i don't know economically good idea or you know so as you get bigger to have a pitched roof is not something really that's reasonable for a developer that maybe wanna build here", "but there are setback requirements and if you have a building closer to the road you still have to have a pitch roof", "so you have to follow the setback", "so anything that's up closer to the road has to have a pitched roof", "and i think it's five thousand feet and less has to have a pitched roof", "ten thousand feet or ten thousand sorry", "ten thousand feet or less", "so if you're over ten thousand the pitched roof requirement is you do not have to have it but ten thousand and under remains pitched roof", "the exterior building it was required wood or brick and now it's the appearance of wood or brick", "and i just wanna use the richmond market as an example", "that is not wood or brick", "so in trying to make sure we don't get certain things sometimes we may hinder development", "we still have the character of the town and we can still include the appearance of wood and brick but that came up as there are some other materials out there that look nice but they're not wood or brick or less maintenance and such", "commercial development lastly the new development must have at least forty of the gross floor area in commercial use", "residential development it only is no longer allowable", "and there's been this kind of falls in line with the commercial development for this area in the town plan", "so it more aligns with the town plan but i do also know when you do residential roads and you don't have any commercial to balance it sometimes that can cause a problem with just providing the regular services you need to provide to new residents and families and not having the additional income to do so", "so there was some consideration i believe to ensure that there would be some commercial in that area", "so there's additional conditional uses business yards food processing establishments repair garage private club and tavern have been added to the list within the district", "do we wanna open it up for any comment or like those other comments from the select board", "yeah let me just go to the select board first", "chris did you want to", "i'd like to say a couple of quick comments", "i think that and please i wanna hear from people who may have been involved in issues with the gateway in the past probably for about the last ten years", "the reason that the gateway looks the way it does and there's been relatively little change there is probably primarily due to three things", "one is the poor state of the economy at least after two thousand and seven", "the current zoning and the lack of a connection to the town water and sewage meant that anything that went in there had to have a septic system and that was a limited size", "so one of these factors is changing now we see the change in the economy", "there's renewed interest and the reaps purchase of the willis farm property and they're bringing this issue to the water and sewer commission", "the select board is a really welcome sign that the economy is picking up okay but probably the most profound thing is if we extend water and sewer out there it's gonna make it possible to put all kinds of buildings there that just haven't been feasible in the past", "so if we do that it is probably important to change the zoning so that we don't end up with things that people don't wanna see there", "and i know that this has been a topic in the past but just to sort of put that in context", "i see this as a very positive discussion for the town", "it is one of the last areas in the town where we can add significant development that has the potential not just to have the benefits that ellen described for the water and sewer system which honestly we need but also they add to the tax base of the town as well", "i guess my caution is that we need to be realistic about the market as the economy picks up", "and whether we like it or not i think the real estate industry sees richmond as bedroom community", "and demands what developers wanna build in richmond is more housing", "and it's not clear to me that there is", "that there are", "that there's a clear advantage to commercial development over residential developed additional residential development of the town remember we have declining population in our schools which has tended to make them oversized and has been a contributing factor to the cost trends there", "so it's not a black or white situation to me but obviously it would be great to have a mix if we can get it", "but i think flexibility and being able to respond to the developer community and to be a good partner so that we end up with development and businesses in the gateway that people are proud to drive by as they come coming in out of town", "and really contribute to the town would be a very positive outcome and possible outcome of this process", "thank you chris", "anything do you have anything no okay", "so before we move onto", "i'd like to take us step by step through the changes and invite questions and comments but before we do that claire if you would do your thing", "you have some pictures here you have some pictures here for us and if you could just kind of talk about the process the planning commission took and tell us what you have", "and for people who don't know this is clair rock the town planner", "yeah thank you", "so i guess really i'll start over here and just talk a little bit about some of the information that the planning commission would have and has provided at the public hearing", "had a clear conversation is the planning commission and a development for this evening is that the zoning changes that are being put forth have to conform with the town plan", "and so the statement from our town plan includes basically then this paragraph which references the gateway area which kind of sets the vision for the gateway area", "and that's where it includes information about including commercial and residential development", "the size and the shape of the buildings will reflect those down in the village", "urban and suburban strip development of big box stores will be prohibited", "so that's some of the guiding information that is being used to guide the zoning", "and when the planning commission draws up the changes they have to ensure that it conforms with the town plan", "so that gives some parameters to what we have to stay within because that's our kind of guiding document", "the town plan language was written back in two thousand and seven and the town plan was readopted in two thousand and twelve", "just as a side note we will be updating our town plan starting next year and we've received municipal planning grant funding to do so", "we intend to do a big public outreach process of we're actually looking for volunteers to serve on the steering committee", "so if any of you are at all interested in helping guide the new town plan and ensuring that we get a lot of participation please contact me cause we are looking for volunteers", "so that the map here is the gateway district", "as i mentioned the gateway district is from the mobile station down to basically the last property there is the multifamily unit building", "that's undergone a renovation recently", "so that's the last property in the gateway", "based on the analysis we did we found that there's about twenty six acres of developable land that's in the gateway", "so that's about the amount of land that could be developed", "and predominantly that land is within this within this area", "the mobile sits within the flood plain so they have restrictions on any new development they can do there", "and then there was a", "gonna be conserved by the land trust as a sledding hill", "so that would be", "this property here will be conserved", "and then as you move down you have the two cemeteries and then a couple of smaller parcels", "so the land i think the prime focus of where our future development could go predominantly looking in here there was the mention of the two hundred foot setback", "that if you are two hundred feet back from the road you could have a larger seventeen thousand square foot building", "so this dashed dark line represents that two hundred feet and that'll give you some sense of back distance that i'm speaking of", "there was a question about how large the building was and this this rectangle here represents seventeen thousand square feet", "it's to scale with the map", "so that'll give you a sense of how big of a footprint would be able to go out along on these properties", "this one here is about ten thousand square feet", "so it's just reference", "i'm gonna jump over here these pictures", "the ten thousand square feet is approximately the size of the market that's here in the village and we did look at some other buildings", "i think harrington's is actually over twenty thousand square feet", "so there are other large larger buildings and so i'll just step over here but these were some associations of building sizes not necessarily building style", "and when we were looking at well what does big box store mean and that can be some guiding information that you've used to kind of judge are we staying within the vision of the town plan based on this diagram here a big box store would be considered this size which is the size of the home depot", "and then the forty thousand square feet is this red box", "and then thirteen thousand square feet is this smaller box", "so i think for the purpose of the gateway a little bit bigger than this blue box is the size that we're looking at compared to what's generally considered a big big box", "so that there are some labels here looking at general sizes", "this is a seventeen thousand square foot two floor building", "this is a four thousand five hundred square foot building and it's a picture of the village market as the example", "and then we did some modeling where we were looking at this is the reap property in the front and like a bit is called the little", "the cottage the thompson thomas cottage and this this represents a fifteen thousand square foot building", "and kind of giving a sense of if you were kind of on the road what that size would look like in compared to the farmhouse in the front", "so that's some of the information that the planning commission has used as they went through their process", "can i ask a question related to the pictures yup", "okay", "thank you i just wondering if it would be helpful for me by the way my name is marshall parson it would be helpful for me in terms of putting pictures and boxes and squares and rectangles in context to just test what's the footprint of the bar that's on a property now you know that six hundred square footprint", "so the is six thousand", "correct", "yeah but what's being proposed is this the footprint of the bar is potential", "did you have a question about pictures yes", "okay", "so if you showed us that big square in the upper corner that is the home depot size", "mmhmm", "and you said that the red one is forty thousand but you didn't give us an example", "oh okay so an example of so yes i have mentioned that this teal box is the size of a home depot", "this forty thousand one is a large supermarket", "and then when you come down to the teal one that's with thirteen thousand square feet that's your average size of a chain drug store", "how big is the building i believe that was over ten thousand but not greatly over ten thousand", "other questions about the pictures we're talking about sizes and just before you state your question if you could just state your name please john mollard is that structure two stories which which one being the one that was using the model yes", "it is that was modeled well thirty feet", "so that would be two stories", "so that's the national size of that teal model thirty five", "that's two stories out of ten thousand", "well we don't define number of stories we just say the building cannot exceed thirty five feet", "so generally speaking that equates to crosstalk drowns out speaker three thousand four hundred and twenty seven height", "two stories yeah in this picture yeah", "these are three stories into that height restriction", "thanks", "sure", "any questions about the pictures i'm jason camp just to get a better sense do you know how big this building is that we're in right now yes that was and i think we looked at that and it was just over ten i believe", "right this footprint is roughly ten thousand square feet", "so that's the turquoise or the", "right we're more of a rectangle that", "yeah", "so when you're looking up there it leads into here yeah", "yeah thank you", "any other questions about those thank you all right so next what we'd like to do is go to your changes", "so that's the one with the cross outs it says gateway commercial district on them", "and we thought what we'd do is we'd go step by step through them discussing the changes and requesting your comments and questions", "before you make a comment please state your name so it is on the record and tonight we'll keep it for the two minutes and then once everyone's gone we'll come back and let you go again", "oh taylor do we set a time for when we're gonna", "how late we're gonna run tonight we have not set a time how late we're gonna run", "should we would you like to just in the interest of public safety and avoiding exhaustion and everything i would propose that we plan to run for ninety minutes total and if we're still if everybody still wants to go and we're hot and heavy we can reconsider but shall we try and keep it to that so that gives us approximately no ninety minutes from the beginning at one thousand nine hundred so try to go to two thousand and thirty", "is that yeah yes okay it's good", "all right so there are no changes in the first section we're looking at three hundred and forty one", "so that's allowable uses on issuance of a zoning permit", "the big change there are changes in conditional uses", "so that would be uses that must appear before the development review board for approval and those were already listed for you", "they include addition of business yard food processing establishment garage and repair private club", "and if you flip the page tavern provided is associated with an onsite distillery brewery or winery", "and just to speak to a couple of those reasons behind them", "business yard i believe in the planning commission or claire you can stop me if i'm wrong but this is what i", "or you can stop me if there's another opinion on it but business yard is used often by construction workers construction companies other companies that may have large pieces of equipment", "and at the time there was a discussion about having the state use the property for their equipment", "so that is something that would need to be included in the area", "food processing was one of those water sewer uses that could use a lot of water sewer of water mainly that was added", "garage and repair was kind of the same thing as automobile service station when you look at the definitions in our zoning bylaws", "and then the tavern the tavern was added and i skipped one private club", "i can't speak to private club", "private club is like a tavern but for private people", "so that would be like an elks club so that elks club", "the vfw", "the vfw hall", "the eagles", "the eagles the moose", "the elks the difference there sometimes you think of that as a restaurant but this the private club would not have the same restrictions on size as a restaurant would in this in these zoning proposals", "so restaurants currently at five thousand a private club might be bigger", "and then the last one was tavern and the planning commission actually took a second look at that and added a sentence provided is associated with the onsite distillery brewery or winery", "that was actually a very good addition and really would hopefully be in the character of the town and provide that kind of more of a destination versus just parking a bar out on the gateway", "so i do invite any select board members who want to chime in on those and then we'll go to the public", "anything from us questions and comments about the proposed changes or anything in the allowable uses yes sir glen lester the addition of the business yard", "yes i have a concern there because there is nothing when you talk about setback screening like that but there's nothing for the business yard", "the business yard was", "you don't know if you got building", "a business yard can change from one day to the next and it can get very messy", "so i'm not saying it's not conducive i'm saying there's nothing in here that i see that requires any kind of setback or screening", "correct yeah i mean the screen that would be included would be with the normal screening", "so there is a fifty foot if we go to the next page that would be a fifty foot lot frontage correct me if i'm wrong claire", "so is there a buffer there is a buffer", "for a yard or just parking no i'm just saying that the only buffer would be the buffer required in the parking", "so there's a fifty foot requirement from the", "there's a fifty foot setback requirement that includes a landscaping requirement but that would", "you're right would only would be the only buffer for that for that business here", "these are all uses that would have to go before the development review board and meet the conditional use criteria", "so within the conditional use criteria one of those does include screening and landscaping", "so there are additional standards that all projects that go for conditional use regardless of their district would have to meet", "so that would be something the drb would look at", "it's not necessarily specifically stated or doesn't have its own specific standard with that within that district", "claire maybe if you could expand just a little bit on conditional use and what that means", "claire can you sit at that table with that mic there sure so the conditional use is a specific approval that has to be sought by the development review board", "and that requires an applicant to submit a conditional use and site plan application to the development review board", "it has to be publicly warned", "all the neighbors have to receive notice of the application as a public hearing", "so any application that would come under one of these conditional uses would be reviewed by the board in a public hearing where neighbors could come and voice concerns or support for a project", "and then following a conditional use approval the drb would issue their decision", "and from there the applicant would have up to two years to then seek a specific zoning and building permit from the zoning administrator to actually physically do what they received the approval from the development review board to do", "so there is a another layer of criteria and public hearings and review that goes along with any application that would come for review for a conditional use", "thank you yes sir so mike walleden to my meaning though that fifty foot buffer is for structures so that there is a question", "i don't see that they're given an answer about any screening or setback", "is there one i question to me is that fill it up up to the road it's not a structure", "it doesn't have the minimum screening and setback", "is that true in which case even though it goes before the drb it's still not complying with all the other structured uses of the job", "so that the business yard would have to go before drb it would have to meet the building setbacks", "right it would have to meet those setbacks", "but the yard part", "that's what she said so the yard part would also have to meet the building setbacks", "it does that yes", "that's considered a structure it's considered one of the conditional uses that has to comply with the other rules of the others i don't see a five the entire setup structure limitations for structures with receiver limitation survive three hundred and forty three", "i don't see that it has doesn't have setback screening", "yeah i think it comes through in the parking lot requirements that are in the parking section of those zoning regulations which in that section it does state that all parking areas do need to meet the district setbacks", "so if an application was to come to the development review board and there was a business yard which would essentially the basis of that would be a parking lot then it would be required to meet those standards which have to meet the setback requirements", "i just have a question if you were to make a minor change would it be considered minor to add just clarify that", "to say that the limits of the construction yard would follow the parking i think certainly the intention was that the setback requirement would apply", "but it's a good point okay", "i mean i would consider the uses in thirty four two to all be subject to the other the other requirements in the document", "and just because it's a yard doesn't necessarily just because it looks like a yard doesn't necessarily exclude it from these other setback requirements", "nah i mean i think it's a good point if there's ambiguity about it but if you go down to three hundred and forty four that's where we're talking", "that's where we're getting to the setbacks", "right and i think you'll find that across the entire zoning document", "so you could clarify it in the gateway but that ambiguity would still remain in all the other districts and that would be an allowable use so", "okay but it's a good point", "yeah okay", "thank you yes i have a question", "what is a business yard definition define i understand what a", "if you are a business you have a yard but if you're a contractor you have a chance for a clean operation", "you have a couple of trailers and it's a clean operation but versus you have some backhoes you have manholes you have sulfite", "is there a clear definition of what a business yard is versus", "what would prevent someone from putting a bunch of backhoes and we'll say caterpillar moved over there and then j prescott put some pipe there and what would prevent that so are you", "do you have the zoning on your yeah i was looking for it", "yeah it's in the definitions", "right", "and i can go and get mine if that'll be helpful as also but within the definition section of the zoning regulations it provides definitions for the uses", "so the business yard does have a defined use", "so we have something to look to to say that's what it is", "okay so by backhoes could i that", "claire do you wanna read so i'll read it out loud for you", "okay so this which operates out of the yard which may include structures indoor and outdoor storage of materials equipment or vehicles", "customary accessory uses for the business are small office space and vehicle or equipment repair", "a majority of the business activity shall take place off site", "no assembly is involved or allowed", "so then to answer your question is yes", "you can store backhoes", "you could store pipe you could store other construction equipment", "i'm a contractor i think i don't want a store there i don't think the reaps intend to do it but i think having that in there as an allowable use might not be something you wanna consider", "with the drb moving across with the character of our town are there some other mechanisms in place that might prevent certain things again i think it goes back to if all the conditional uses do have to adhere to the conditional use criteria which is a different section", "and then that conditional use criteria screening is one of the conditional use criteria that an applicant would have to demonstrate appropriate screening", "so they would look at that when an application is before them", "are there any other questions on that section on any of the other uses can i ask yes you can go ahead", "mike holler can i ask why that was inserted that's the first new edition instead of speaker drowned out by background noise an insert", "and what was the intention and besides the intention what are your odds so this came from somewhere and i think we ought to allow what we wanna allow if we want it but this is not clear", "so why does that happen mark do you wanna speak to that i may be able to answer that", "and one of the things that came up there was two properties or two development options that had come up in discussion about the gateway", "one of them was a laboratory for the state of vermont dc which would've been nice but the zoning wasn't in place to allow it", "previously before that there was inquiry's i dunno if it was before or after the reaps purchase property but a development of the state police barracks there which required a business yard", "second", "so those two options i thought were both good assets to the town that we thought were reasonable assets to the town considered them a possibility", "mark is it fair to say that in the zoning commission's deliberations that on one hand having a commercial component requirement on one hand there was an attempt to balance that by giving flexibility to the types of commercial businesses that could be cited there again given that the propensity of developers is gonna wanna be put residences on that", "and what you wanna do is make it as open to different kinds of businesses as falls within the guidelines of the town plan", "that's certainly part of the discussion", "thank you mark any questions yes please state your name", "gary so i think it's a double j", "so it's not community owned inaugurated institution facility that allows for us", "can someone explain to me why the state for a definition under that section", "i think it was the building size", "well it wasn't for you", "i mean that stuff to you", "right well specifically with a state lab that state facilities can go in there and they could be defined as a state facility but then looking at well what about private lab and being able to allow for that also", "other questions on these uses yes sir", "yeah i'm still on the business yard", "i'm listening to mark he said that one of the reasons that came into being was the possibility of the state police going in there", "well i", "state police i mean they usually have a parking lot", "when i think of a business yard i generally think of construction and as this gentleman here mentioned to be all kinds of equipment there", "but also there can be a collection over time of broken down equipment that worked the other day and it didn't work today", "i mean okay six months from now it still isn't working and it's still there or materials that are coming off site from somewhere else being temporarily stored there", "and without any kind of setback and i don't think fifty feet for something like that is adequate for screening", "if there was screening there i really wouldn't have a problem with it", "but from what i'm hearing here the reasons for this are a lot narrower than witnesses allowing", "thank you yes sir my names john", "i'm not necessarily so thrilled with the idea of the business yard is sort of open so open as that", "but in section three hundred and forty five the second last line of that section subsection f item three it says there must be landscaping between the floating and route two of fifty feet so there is a landscaping piece there", "so here's some", "there's a statement there about screening", "i don't know if that means that two foot high hedging s that look really dumb", "right", "but if it's filterable if there is some lining that could be improved thank you", "any other comments or questions on this yes yeah marie thomas and i've gone to a number of meetings with the planning commission and stuff and i've been watching this", "and i've been actively thinking about it as i drive up and down route two every day", "and if you look at it especially with that two hundred foot line there this what twenty six acres overall when you take up", "does that include the area that's been given the conserved area no", "no", "claire no that certainly doesn't include the conserved area but what you're talking about basically are there's three parcels and there if you look as you drive up and down there are a number of places", "the little wetlands and things in there so there's really a very very limited area that we're talking about", "we're really talking about two major landowners there", "and then there's three small parcels that currently have single family homes on them that are very at the very narrowest part there", "so i think everybody's got concerns and that's appropriate that people have concerns if people pay attention but we're really talking about a really small area there", "and i find when i'm driving in from the interstate your eye is not looking at that side of the road at all", "and i bet you if you canvas everybody in here you couldn't even describe what all the buildings look like there because there is a lot of landscaping", "that's one of the things that's preventing not driving right to there", "and when you're driving out once you get past the cemetery you see the willis house which is fifty feet off the road", "okay that's about fifty feet off the road the willis house", "you can barely see the thompson cottage", "you can't see the towing place cause it's way up and back", "and then you really you might see one of the other houses there", "so to me it's not none of us want us to have this place to come every place usa", "we don't wanna get off the highway and have a mcdonald's or a burger king", "if you're keep thinking off getting off of littleton and new hampshire and you go and it's like it's mcdonald's it's burger king", "it's dunkin donuts", "it's three there's three dunkin donuts", "there's three stores what do you call them drug stores i mean we don't want that up and it's very clear that we don't want that but i think we'd be hard pressed even if somebody did try to put that in there doing that there", "and since the biggest parcels owned by people who have a lot of investment in this community", "mm", "and who are known entities i don't think that there's a lot of risk", "so that's just my perspective", "all these people have lived here for awhile", "they've proven that they have all the", "the main landowners are here they've proven that they in the community", "so i don't", "i'm not all that nervous", "i would be nervous if we had some big out of town developer coming in and just wanting to push through", "i mean we all saw what happened in willesden", "i don't know if anybody was here in the 70s they built willesden days", "and everybody tried to fight it back then", "that used to be beautiful farmland there", "we certainly don't want to be willesden", "i don't really think that that's", "that could happen here", "we've got the flood plain zone can't handle there", "remember years ago there was a proposed truck wash there and that can't happen", "you know in reality the local station shouldn't be there but that was done years ago", "so i'm not all that nervous and i think it's important for us to keep it in perspective as to what really could happen there", "so that's just my it's a small place", "we don't have very many places to go", "i feel really bad i don't live in town", "i don't have to pay those high water rates but i feel really bad for everybody who does", "and i don't think that the cheese plant is gonna get redeveloped anytime in the near future", "and it's not definitely not gonna take up the kind of water that it used to and we need to do something", "and we have some businesses there that could generate some jobs then there'll be people to eat in all these wonderful restaurants that we're gonna have here now", "and we have a wonderful downtown we have what other places don't have", "we have a wonderful downtown", "jericho doesn't have that round hill doesn't have that", "the waterbear is close to having it", "we have a nice little walk over downtown here", "we've got some great places and great businesses", "and i don't think i think this can only enhance it", "i don't think it's gonna detract from it and there has to be some development somewhere", "and frankly i'd rather see jobs come in out there than see a whole bunch of houses built", "thank you further dissecting our farmland out there", "so that's just my few words", "thank you marie", "quickly do we have any other discussion on three hundred and forty two", "yes on principle i tried never to disagree with marie thomas and i'm not going to i mean i think that you", "i'm just gonna speak for myself here and the rest of the select board can do that but i think part of this is that the select board would like to encourage some kinds of commercial development in the gateway", "that's one of", "that's why we're having this meeting", "well that would be", "and consistent with the town plan", "and that would be consistent with the town plan", "i'm going to move us along just because when the lights go out we don't have a lot of time before there are literally no lights left and we can't exit safely", "so if we move onto section three hundred and forty three which is dimensional requirements applicable to lots in the gateway district there were no changes to this section from what currently existed", "is there any comment or question on that section okay in section three hundred and forty four dimensional limitations for structures on lots in the gateway district", "this is where there were two changes", "the first is the ten thousand square foot building and the seventeen thousand square foot building", "so i'll read that out loud no building shall have a footprint exceeding ten thousand square with the exception of buildings that are setback more than two hundred feet from the edge of route two right of way and thirty feet from the edge of all other right of ways", "building setback more than two hundred feet from the edge of the route two right of way and thirty feet from the edge of", "all other right of ways shall not have a footprint exceeding seventeen thousand square feet and then the second change was the next one which is the residential mixed use requirement", "in the gateway commercial district at least forty of the gross floor area of new development must be in commercial use", "so just for point of history that new item f is a new item but also it was modified from fifty to forty", "correct", "within the last month", "questions and comments on those on that section yes sir the general open questionnaire cause i'm not sure it's real specific to that", "perfect so i'll hold that perfect and focus on okay other questions on that yes sir", "yeah brad", "do you have any bit of sense of how many people could be employed in say the footprint seventeen thousand foot story i'm assuming it could go three cause there's a peaked roof and it's leaning to that size so", "but it can hold too", "cause it's only thirty five feet high", "can't you get three stories on the 35s three times no", "no it's just highly unlikely", "so if you do have a question about you just shot your hand up", "well at the time when the agricultural laboratory was moving towards the space and with a seventeen thousand square foot footprint two story building they were saying that they would have fifty employees", "fifteen", "fifty oh fifty", "you staying out of it", "crosstalk drowns out speaker shifts there", "yeah", "yeah", "i'm thinking cubicles i don't know", "right", "guys trying to get a sense about the traffic impact", "right", "with people going in", "marie's made the point about commercial being as better than residential but all of a sudden with ten thousand people working out there which i know is a ridiculous number but if there's a bunch of people out there that is gonna put more pressure on housing stock", "we could only the one acre zoning in town that's very easy to you know a lot of people that move in and the cost of town services will go up and taxes are great so", "so that they call it also a topic as such", "there is a new where if an applicant is seeking to either put in a curb cut or i think this would also apply to modifying an existing curb cut", "so you're switching a curb cut from residential use to a commercial use", "they have to go to the agency of transportation because this curb cut was on a state highway", "and so there's a new requirement which states before the local board would review it they have to go to the state and get a state preliminary approval on that curb cut and that access point before the issue of the local approval", "and i think that's just to make sure that the state is overseeing traffic flows on their own highway system", "so that would be a form of a checks and balances for any major development on the gateway", "they would have to get the blessing of agency of transportation to ensure that there wasn't gonna create any traffic severe traffic impacts", "yeah", "mark i just wanted to make another comment i had to the concerns about traffic and the location where that property is", "if you think about the jobs that would be created there and the traffic impact from that i didn't have the strong sense that that would be great", "i didn't run a study or anything but that that traffic would be traveling in the opposite direction", "the current flow of traffic now to richmond", "richmond's already there the community demands on development for housing are already there", "and those aren't going to be radically changed by a building going in off of route two but the traffic the flow of employees going to that building would be coming off of the interstate and going towards town", "but not all the way into the four corners intersection that is such a mess", "traffic for residents in town or in bolton et cetera are already gonna be moving out towards the interstate anyway", "so those increases wouldn't necessarily be impacted by construction or commercial development off of route two", "and construction or commercial development in town might actually promote residents and people living in the town to take alternative", "they wouldn't necessarily be compelled to take a vehicle if they could bike to their job on route two a mile away on route two and so", "now there is studies and route two is in the midst of", "we did a study on", "there was a study performed on improving traffic flow and alternative transportation along route two out to the parking lot", "it didn't really come up with a practical alternative", "however the state is intending to do significant work on route two", "and i think it would be in the town's interest to encourage the state in lieu of a formal alternative path but to widen route two as much as possible and promote if not formal bike lanes because those aren't legally wide enough on stretches of route two", "but there could be significant improvements to bike travel along route two that the town should be pushing besides above and beyond what we're talking about here with this development", "i just wanna add i think is there a new park and ride going in at willesden or is there another a two hundred and fifteen", "there is yeah", "i'm just thinking the adjustment here has to do with maybe some of those people would lose the willesden one", "it's just another additional decrease okay", "thank you pardon marshall paulson just curious about it maybe it's a developmental procedural question looking at three hundred and forty to the last item there", "there isn't mixed piece requirement", "just out of curiosity it says that there's a forty at least forty gross area development must be in commercial usage", "the gateway is a whole series of parcels", "how's that done procedurally if say someone comes in and says i want to develop and do one hundred commercial", "the next persons come online have a skewed for their development proposals or a skewed to maintain this national forty figure", "how's does that work chris chris will talk about this", "we've had a very sturdy conversation about this", "good question it is a great question", "so the way that this has been interpreted is that any individual development in the gateway must meet this requirement", "so and we tend to think of it now as the existing parcels but suppose a developer comes in and buys up a number of those parcels and consolidates them", "well then that would", "and what if it's a zoned i mean a phased development over time there are issues with actual enforcement here", "and we were getting into thinking about tradable development permits where you know and all kinds of things that basically i have no idea how we would actually administer", "so i think what this is gonna come down to is that when a developer brings something to the drb this will be something that gets put", "it's leverage it's basically leverage for the town to get a commercial component to any specific development that goes in there", "does prohibit a single family residential owner selling their property to someone who also wants to build a single family residence on a single parcel it does now", "right so you could so that this go further", "no but it wouldn't preclude you from selling your single family house to a new owner", "so that selling of a single family house to a new owner can still happen", "and you can still make modifications to a single family house where you couldn't build a new single family house out there", "without adding a business", "it's forty", "even if you use the same code", "you couldn't do a tear down and build a single family house without adding a business", "well in that case i think you could you could because you have a", "there's a provision in the bylaws that says like say if your house burns down you have the right to rebuild it on the same foot", "oh i stand corrected", "so you could take a three acre lot and split it into three separate one acre lots and build two additional homes", "right i think in keeping with the town they were trying to keep some of that area commercial given the limitations on commercial and our town", "and that not having a bunch of new residential developments when there's other areas you could do that with", "and there was some discussion if i'm", "just even given where it's at it might not really be prone to big residential communities because of two and then eighty nine really cutting it in that little triangle", "so those there was some thought into why the encouragement for commercial was important there rather than somewhere else where maybe residential would be better suited", "so but mark some of the other people can i just ask one follow up and then i'll have that confirmed", "follow up one follow up", "yeah", "so just to play this out the fifty thousand square foot building potential that's all commercial", "what does that do to the rest of the property what seventeen thousand well our seventeen thousand seventeen thousand give or take", "so okay all right fair enough", "just seeing if you're awake", "so so how just getting that out that does or does not negatively affect other potential developers along the parcel with their opportunities for being next to commercial", "i guess it could from the competition the point standpoint of competition right so the first person to build good commercial space might lock up that commercial space that market", "but that as far as", "as far as the whole gateway is concerned that doesn't but that doesn't no that doesn't preclude another owner from also developing that type of building", "it says that police marshall", "yes but to be clear we're talking about maybe two parcels that have the potential to do so but i think it's a good point", "thank you", "yeah yes krista kemp i'm wondering where the seventeen thousand number came from if it was based on the agricultural lab or just a random number you chose or", "sure mark yes i could attend to that yeah", "it did come pretty much from the", "yeah the agricultural laboratory", "their requirements were for fifteen thousand and fifty or something obscure like that", "it's on the planning commission decided to put a little bit of elbow room into that fifteen thousand plots and that is the seventeen", "it's certainly wasn't a hard scientific number", "just something that would satisfy what the ddc lab would want and it seemed reasonable", "one of the", "another one of those kinds of flexible numbers where between ten thousand and seventeen thousand feet we felt that was something adequate to build good commercial space or put some sort of use that we're allowing into it but still restricted from being the size of home depot", "yes guy heards i have just a question about not necessarily the corner space where the routes are but the spaces further up", "assuming that at some point those did get joined together at some point", "the restrictions here talk about forty of the area being used for building structures pavement et cetera", "would it not", "there's nothing here that restricts numbers of buildings necessarily", "so you can almost see somebody stacking two or three buildings immediately adjacent to each other sidewalk include on some of those sites up to there", "is there no thought to try and restrict the building density more than just by saying forty so the building densities were also governed by the setbacks at three foot in the next section but other than that you're right", "there could be", "you mean like more five thousand foot buildings", "correct yeah", "when i look at that and you look at the topography over there", "yeah", "i think that restricts that also restricts it", "so so if you go past the thompson house to where blackfork towing is the topography there very much restricts the type of building and the places you could place other buildings", "in addition you come up to the highway there", "so that moves buildings forward and you end up with a fairly narrow area to build", "and the need for parking there", "and the need for parking yeah that's a good point", "are there excavation restrictions sorry are there excavation restrictions in terms of could the walk side yeah could you just all of a sudden i had a development behind me that couldn't have been there had there right there's no specific excavation requirements or limitations", "limitations rather requirements so you're right there's the potential to fill in say to find things out but again the topography out there if you walk back there we're talking about rock and we're talking about some pretty narrow areas to combine lots and stuff like that would work for building for squeezing a lot of things together", "and i dunno if there's a lot of residential that would maybe be impacted by it someone but as opposed to but it could impact those that are currently there", "so it's a good point", "but yeah i don't think you're wrong", "in longterm that is an option under these rules", "anything else other questions or comments on that great", "i was just wondering is anybody here specifically not know the committee is that yes", "what kinds of businesses have expressed interest coming to a community that far so talking to seeing it get interest from businesses so there was an evening where they had a tech night where they had some tech people come", "mmhmm and that was more entrepreneurial type business", "we do have the greensea in town", "we did get feedback that that their experience when they first tried to open up in town was", "could have been better", "so we're trying to be in some ways more welcoming when someone is interested in doing a little economic development within our town", "as far as the creamery sites concerned there were some conversations with the developer and some interest", "and that was really being spearheaded by a nonprofit the senior center nonprofit and at this point installed", "so i don't have any updates", "our next meeting i'm hopeful is on the 17th that we will have some we have some really nice businesses in town like the goodwin baker building we've got the rainforest alliance the hmc", "bluehouse group and", "with greensea here we've got some really nice small businesses", "and i would think that that would attract even more of that kind of business", "i think we can be smart about who we do approach and attract and there is some benefit to the economic development committee", "and the select board supporting it that we do attract what we want and i think that's possible", "can i just give you a list of people who have approached us yes", "for property okay", "there is a ski boot manufacturer a brewery a preschool a cabinet maker", "nice", "an office use that wanted ten thousand square feet of space", "i mean these are the people that have been talking to us and one of the first reasons that we came to the planning commission asking them to change", "first thing we asked for was get rid of the five thousand square foot business limitation", "so i mean there's interest", "that's good", "and i think that every year i think it's nice to have people that know the character of our town", "also being approached by certain things that might fit", "so i do think we can zone out a lot of things", "we can think of everything we don't want and we could have really big zoning regulations but we may miss some opportunities for some things we do want", "so it's trying to get that balance and then hopefully that's what we'll get yeah", "john mr chair just as a point of process are we still going through the changes because we are literally out of time for the meeting and i think there's a couple members people that wanna offer some ideas sure", "so we need to get to that", "sure are there any other questions on this section we're in which is three hundred and forty four", "three hundred and forty five coming up", "so the next section is three hundred and forty five and this has to do with parking so changes are on a where parking located to the", "must be located aside or rear of the building with the exception of buildings that are setback more than one hundred and fifty feet from the edge of route two", "in which case parking can be in the front of the building", "and then the next change is down to f number two the roof pitch requirement may be waived for buildings with footprints that exceed ten thousand square feet", "and also striking structures shall be built up or have the appearance of wood or brick", "i just wanna make a comment that one of the change to that i the first subsection of f", "oh yes sorry", "a single principle structure must have an entrance or windows facing route two", "so before the change was there must be both an entrance and windows facing route two and now it's one or the other", "questions and comments on those the town plan says that the building shall be in character of what's found in the village", "mmhmm", "i don't have a problem with seventeen thousand twenty thousand twenty five because i think there's a sufficient amount of land there that could fit but i do have a problem with flat roof", "if you look at the underwear factory that's sloped even harrington's has sloped roof in the front", "so i would like the planning commission and the select board to consider adding a requirement that it be a mansard roof or something", "i just think if you're driving by in the state you're gonna see rooftop units you're gonna see it's not the character", "and the only flat roof building is probably on main street and it's the main block but all the other commercial even the grocery store is sloped", "and to me a roof is a big thing and", "so that's my comment and i'd like to thank you guys for all the work", "and especially mark", "i haven't attended all the meetings but i appreciate all the work", "i think getting business in town is great", "and i appreciate what the reaps are doing but roof and i'm a little concerned about taking wood or brick", "i'm fine if you people like the grocery store i think is great but i'd hate to see a nin tin", "right now there's nothing that would prevent a tin building with a one and a half on twelve roof", "there's nothing in here that i would see that would be preventative", "why couldn't i put a caterpillar building down here and think that would be wrong", "thank you", "thank you", "other comments or questions in this section i just have a question about where that part about the doors and the windows came from what that's all about yeah so from me in discussions with the planning commission and mark you can jump in", "is that with parking requirements mostly on the side of the building anyway that it was cumbersome and burdensome to have to add a door and windows to the front side of the building where in my opinion windows look kind of the same as if you have a door in there", "so i think the original in my opinion the original intent was to kind of preserve that character of an actual building and not a huge monstrosity", "and i think that it can be done with windows or with doors or one or the other not necessarily requiring to be there", "if it's not going to be used why do you need to put the door over there no i that's kind of the way", "they've done what is in", "why it's usually driven out i believe", "john john park i guess there's three answers here i'm serving up", "first the free parking moving the parking from where it had to be at the rear to up front and think what sort of gives an area strip development feel more than anything else is the sea of parking lots at the front of a building", "it sets up it sets the framework for the whole development in a bad light", "and i would much prefer to see parking in back", "i think that's a critical change that should be or that this change should not be adopted", "i'd also say that it'd be completely waiving the materials that would be developed and used for development is that warren said whether it's the roof and additional materials alone will have a big effect of what you put there", "yes there could be some other good materials to build with beyond so they should be added not to breech the rules cause we could all visualize other materials would be good", "but we could also think of that fact that cheap stuff to building and we have development there that will quickly lose value and set a bad precedent for the entry of our town", "thank you", "thank you", "john the same question yes", "correctly just to clarify so the dotted line on the map is the two hundred the two hundred foot limit", "so this would be for buildings that are to the left right well yeah", "so you do the parking in the front", "to the on the road side", "so the parking setback to that allows", "that allows parking the building setback yeah sorry the building setback that allows parking in front is one hundred and fifty feet", "so it's stretched out", "crosstalk drowns out speaker it's smaller", "right it's closer to the road", "and then the parking lot would be between that and the red", "red line down the road correct", "so parking presumably could be", "would be within that one hundred and", "it would be closer to the road", "one hundred and forty feet yes yeah", "and we have examples currently there with parking and complexes that have them there already", "already there yeah it's they get clearance permits from right out of the front", "yeah", "so there are examples", "i think the stand though is pretty different though", "i mean the parkings really there are a few cars there all the time", "there's a building that is seventy or fifty markers", "mark you want to provide any insight from the conversations that you folks had on this topic about parking", "oh well i think the planning commission's perspective on that and they're gonna consider it to be a that at one hundred and fifty feet off of the road as it is then there is a bit of a setback", "there's not as many buildings that would go that far back in the first place", "the fifty foot buffer of landscaping i think with the intent of hiding parking goes a long way in eliminating that strip mall development that folks would be concerned about", "that's the very specific language about shielding parking", "so that wasn't as big a concern and we wanted to allow some flexibility to develop", "so i do understand that a lot of the things that people are concerned about aren't necessarily changing but once again the line is drawn in that this is a big change", "i don't think that's a reason not to be concerned about it just because it's already there", "until now with not much has happened there because of water and sewer not because of planning limitations", "so when water and sewer goes down there everything's gonna change", "willesden was a town much like richmond until water and sewer got pushed around the streets", "so i think it's great to hear some nice cabinet shop wants to go in and stuff uses that we would all love to see there but really what's gonna happen is that the deep pockets at mcdonald's are gonna buy those lots on the end", "we know that when the sewer goes out there the water and sewer the hookup fees for those families is gonna drive some of those families out of there", "so who's gonna be there with the deep pockets to buy up those lots and combine them", "it's not gonna be some little richmond business that wants to be out there", "so i think overall what i see here is a huge missed opportunity to stand back and look at this as a piece of land twenty six acres", "it's gonna undergo huge changes not the changes i think that the reaps are gonna do i have less concerns", "those lots they're farther out they're more appealing to franchise restaurants", "more appealing to the same hotels we see at thousands of inter changes as we drive around the country", "and i just feel like we're being terribly naive about what's gonna happen there", "i don't know if the planning commission could talk because about the limitations on square footage to prevent certain things that we don't want there", "it did come up before cause i know we were concerned as well", "when you talk about a big hotel and things of that nature can they really fit the seventeen thousand square foot right too big a hotel obviously wouldn't be able to fit beyond that two hundred foot buffer but certainly in some of our where those are very real concerns here it has", "and then it's just something that that are not easily tritely addressed in any zoning regulation", "but what we did want to do is encourage the type of development of business offices and those kinds of things and facilitate that type of development to make it preferable to some of the other possible developments that could come in there", "there is no current zoning in richmond that bans franchises those types of things", "those are zoning changes that are fundamental to the core of the town that maybe could be addressed in a rework and revisit of the town plan which we will be doing", "and are certainly hoping for a lot of community participation there but isn't something that the planning commission was ready to go full barrel down the path of doing that", "we spent a lot of time discussing that and the zoning regulations that were discussed", "and we had some that were eventually defeated and we had some town based guidelines for that", "but to try and piecemeal that together into a specific zoning regulation we thought was beyond the bounds of the scope of what we were trying to do with this district in the short term", "if we had ten years before we had to decide maybe would be a great thing to fully revisit the town plan structure all of that and then only change zoning regulations on the revision of the town plan", "but i don't think that current circumstances allow that kind of window of time", "we just don't have it", "we don't have the opportunity", "as much as we reached out to the community for feedback and guideline in the six months that we were focused on this district we didn't go that far because we didn't have the impetus", "but the directive from the town to take it that end level", "so we did try to maintain a lot of the zoning that was there now and make moderate changes that we hoped wouldn't be too controversial and still held to a lot of the vision of what the town plan is and what the current zoning regulations are", "that's well first of all i think we should do a time check just to yes", "do you wanna see whether we should continue or yeah i mean folks we stay and talk absolutely yes", "okay", "yeah okay all right", "the point that i and gary raises an important point", "without going through the whole history of how we got to where we are today the planning commission was given a charge by the select board several months ago in order to meet a schedule which they did", "and many thanks to them but at", "i was at our last meeting where we discussed this i pointed out that due to changing circumstances in fact the urgency about at least in my opinion", "the urgency about putting a vote on the proposed zoning changes before the voters on at the march town meeting is no longer there for a variety of reasons", "as i said at the beginning of the meeting i believe that if we do extend water and sewer service out to the gateway area we probably definitely do wanna revise the zoning because the current zoning if left the way it is opens the door to all the kinds of things that everybody's said that they don't wanna have", "but that's not gonna happen overnight folks", "i mean it's gonna take two years to build water and sewer out to that area", "if in fact though the water and sewer commission moves forward on that which i think there's a good chance that they will", "and that gives time for the process that gary described to take place", "and that was", "then still i would have to say my preference however the", "you also have to and i do respect that politics is messy and that a lot of people spend a lot of time working on this already and it's never gonna be perfect", "and another way to look at it is we could do this now and then improve it over the next two years too", "so it's not", "it's not an either or situation i guess", "and what we could do is see this as the beginning of a discussion where a lot of these issues get brought out but then we continue to work on moving forward with that", "and without throwing the baby out with the bath water and just saying that we're going back to the square one and we're not gonna do anything until we get the town plan done", "i think doing the town", "redoing the town plan is important and that would give us the opportunity when that's done to make further revisions in the future", "well of course i've felt similar to you that this might be the beginning of changes and this has actually been a great discussion to bring so many people out to hear some of the things that weren't even addressed in this", "that once we do the town kind of revisioning that could then go back to the planning commission", "and if this is a first step to some of those other things we've got a great start to that", "so that's how i'm looking at it", "yes okay while we're talking about the sewer being extended out we live adjacent to the mobile home park", "and i was wondering whether that could potentially change their expansion or not based on their own sewer capabilities", "now i don't know if that's a limitation on them or whether you guys could maybe address that yeah just a point not to get too far into it but essentially what the water and sewer commission looked at is a number of different scenarios", "and the one that makes economic sense is to build water and sewer out in the mobile home park so that it can expand", "if they don't expand it sort of borderline and probably still makes economic sense", "if they do expand it has potential lower rates for everybody on the system because of the extra flow and the hookup charges", "so that would be", "that's one of the", "so greg are you saying that they would expand sizewise yes", "well they could", "so the economic tipping point on the extension of the water and sewer lines cause they're kind of separate", "but if you extended both the economics really balances when you get as far as the existing mobile home park because you get a large number of users in one location", "once just the conversation we already had once you build a line and you have excess capacity anyone along the line can ask to hook up for additional use", "up to our eighty maximum capacity", "so there will be excess capacity to be used somewhere whether it's in town in the gateway or on the other", "i guess my question was more is the limitation on what the mobile home park is it purely sewerage and water or is it something else no", "no so no", "no so they run their own plant and i don't wanna get back to this but they run their own water sewerage system now", "they could expand that water sewer system and add units now", "i don't know that that's actually", "that's accurate that's one hundred accurate that they could add", "they could add units now", "so that's kind of where we're at with that extension do or not do", "pay us or do it yourself kind of thing", "that's where i'm at and yeah", "so it's related but", "yeah", "right got it", "back to zoning anyway yes carey i think everyone here tonight is concerned about how the big wave looks and probably the approach the original looks and we've spent a lot of time talking about ten thousand square foot buildings seventy thousand", "i think the big deciding factor was whether the water goes out there or not", "and they don't put water up there none of this really matters", "there isn't any kind of pressure", "there's no i mean look what's happened in the last eight years", "nothing's been built out there of this size but if we put the water out there then richmond exchanges are very desirable location to build", "and that's when we determine the look of richmond much more than these rules about building sites", "so the question is and i know the select board wants and the town plan states we wanna encourage commercial development in that area", "and i guess i'd like to hear from maybe cause it's your area maybe", "why buildings like richmond would want to extend our commercial area to increase the size", "will it decrease the tax property taxes for people in the village will it i've heard from the planning commission that the water line would not pay for itself and it wouldn't reduce the water bills for the richmond residents", "are we looking for more services for the people in town to have or so why does the town why would a town want to get bigger and deal with the growing pains that that brings with it i feel like so there's several issues and i'll address i'll ask jeff to also add in as well as far as the tax space is concerned", "but whenever you have residential you always need to balance it with some economic development for your tax space", "as far as just town services are concerned i think when you have more children going to the school and things of that nature the taxes tend to increase on the property value taxes", "i dunno if i can you put", "so the idea was there's very few areas and the economic development committee doesn't necessarily want to increase the areas of development", "they would like to just find the right kind of development in the areas that are zoned for economic growth that haven't been developed", "and may bring help support the town the future of the town increase the tax rate", "so maybe we could reduce some of the sidewalks and really have some additional funding to make our town look the way we want in the character that we want it in", "so there isn't some rush to really grow the town", "it's really about what have we been doing with the areas that are zoned for economic development and we haven't been able to develop those", "so we're charged as with the economic development committee to really see if we can attract those businesses that would support our town and also maybe even bring in more business into town", "so some of the people on the economic development committee have businesses in town", "so are there things that could be out there that may attract more business into town during the day so if you did have i think the vermont state police the thinking was they'll come get their haircut they'll come to the restaurants and then they'll leave", "but it's how do we do things in a way that meets the character of our town but also in those zoned areas for economic development that we'd actually developed something", "so that was kind of our thinking as the economic development committee", "and can we do a better job that the economic development committee just started up again two years ago", "it has a history of existing and not existing but how do we work with our town plan and do something where we do take the input of the whole town and we do honor the character", "and develop it in the way that we want it to", "i mean if you look at the richmond market if you look at some of the restaurants here i'm very proud of what we have here", "and i don't think anyone wants the strip mall the mcdonald's and all of those other things", "but we also have heard from some business developers that sometimes it's very difficult to develop in our town and it", "and for multiple reasons", "and can we balance that in a way where we get what we want and we're reasonable about it so one other comment about there was a question buried in your question was a fair a question about the water sewer extension not paying for itself", "oh that's not ac", "well you can go ahead yeah", "so that's where i'm going", "yeah okay", "that we've had several scenarios about it gets really into the weight", "so i'll try to skip over pretty quickly", "a phase one phase two and phase three development extension", "absolutely if we extended phase three all the way to the mobile home park it reduces rates on current users as well as future users", "and that's largely because we have excess capacity in both sewage and water", "so you have to have enough users when you get out there to more than pay for itself", "a clear majority of the water sewer commission will not approve extension of the lines if it raises rates for current users", "so the only reason to extend it is to from the water sewer commission perspective is to reduce rates in the near term", "yes so there's not a lot of talk about that we're concerned about the look of the town and we wanna develop it the way we want it to be", "but gary's point really kind of raised a lot of red flags for me", "and do we really", "does the planning commission the drb whatever really have the control they can't really pick and choose can they if mcdonald's franchises or whatever hear that in richmond yes the water and sewer line is going to be extended can they just go in and start making very attractive offers to land owners and go ahead and buy property before the line is even laid yet but what's to prevent that in cabinet town committees say if they meet all these different criteria can the town say yes you meet all those but no that's not what we're doing here", "i think that's an excellent question that we actually haven't gone through it", "that pardon me if claire could walk us through let's play that out", "yeah let's say mcdonald's decides they want a site in richmond what would happen currently the way our zoning is written and the way the laws are written is that we cannot deny a permit to somebody just because of their franchise name", "and if they're meeting all the other requirements in our zoning regulations we", "that's what the drb is required to base their decision on", "so if they're meeting all the requirements and if it's mcdonald's versus joe's diner we can't pick or choose one or the other", "that permit if we did deny them purely because we don't want a mcdonald's would be appealed and it would go to the courts and they would win and we would get the mcdonald's anyway well in my understanding this is how we got cumberland farms and this is the point i was making about what you said earlier", "our use it's gotta be something that's consistent yeah", "because we don't have the ability to pick and choose", "but so if it was a mcdonald's it could be in a small house with a pitched roof", "and they wouldn't", "i mean and they won't do that because they have a certain corporate look that they insist upon", "mcdonald's has but i don't know if we generate the kind of", "i mean there's certain areas and communities that get one that looks like that but but it has to be in keeping with the town plan it talks about the character of the village and mcdonald's is not in character with the rest of the village", "yeah", "they would have to yes", "make it and the only place i know they've ever altered their design is stove", "yeah but let me just", "let me just add something quickly before we", "so we've uncovered there's a lot that we are concerned about about our zoning that has existed a long time", "so what we've done is some amendments to what currently exists and what was brought up as these amendments may not be the biggest concern we're hearing right now", "so the amendments now are what we're talking about but we're hearing and which is great because we're gonna be doing our town planning", "if we want other changes we can do that", "that's not what we can do right now", "we can't we're not right now that'll take another process of and i think we're at the beginning of maybe starting that process", "are we okay with these amendments and are we now identifying some other things that you'd like to bring back to the plan the zoning planning sorry commission and that we need to start a new process to look at some other things before some of these other things can happen", "and i think that's what's coming out now but it's not so much ten thousand square feet or seventeen thousand square feet because those", "those franchises could have come in prior to this so this is not", "this is i think a good process and good points brought up", "john did you wanna yes i'm", "so if we can say we don't want big box stores how come we can't say we don't want franchises how come we don't do that well i think there are franchi", "there are many franchises out there that are franchises that we would probably like because like the", "i'm not sure if technically the market is a franchise but they have other stores in other towns", "and there is a local pharmacy in a town that i live in and you love your local pharmacy but they actually own stores in other towns", "and so there's also so it's one of those things where franchises i think can take on many different faces", "and some of them may be things we don't like but there are probably franchises that are owned by local people then and they're a great local business", "so that's not something we could say no franchises", "so what you're saying so because personally for me i'd give up some of those other things if we could just keep out mcdonald's and chicken wing because i don't really want that in richmond", "i think gary is right i think that this could happen now", "the sewer line goes out there and it's gonna happen fast and we may not have the luxury of going through this whole process to make it better", "and so what", "could we not do that well with the statement of the prohibition of big box store that is a", "you can make a regulation where you say we're not gonna allow buildings over a certain size", "and so big box store tends to have it's", "that's the base on a building square footprint", "and we have the ability to regulate building square footprint", "but that's not what's in there in that sentence we don't want big box stores in the regulations", "right right and so the way that we don't have big box stores is because we have limited the square footage of the size of a building", "right", "and that's regardless of what type of store it is so that's like a defensible zoning regulation you can do if you're just saying square footage", "so we can have the seventeen thousand square foot home depot", "if that is a workable business model for them gary you got it gary can't say enough", "so we're gonna go to gary", "so there's a proposal i mean from a couple of years ago and that would be the planning commission tried to deal with this issue by not allowing franchisees to come in but it could be if you change the name come in for example parkside and kitchen table", "you could say it's a franchise it's two businesses by the same owners but it has a different name", "and we thought that would keep out dunkin donuts", "they're not gonna change their name to come to richmond", "right mmhmm okay", "i said no drivethru that would", "i think there's a lot more we can think about", "yes", "i'm christi winters was there any consideration given to eliminating the conditional uses of restaurant and retail business it sounds like those are two uses that would be promoting like the panera that claire has as an example is five thousand squarefoot restaurant", "for a retail business that's gonna add a lot of traffic along route two and pull away from our downtown", "do we really want restaurants and retail business out there we're really looking at businesses", "and was there any consideration for that cause it sounds like that would address a lot of that strip mall franchisee development", "so mark we can go to you if you wanna talk about it", "for me the discussion was do we", "do we eliminate the malling or do we continue to restrict the size so a lot of the five thousand square foot sizes were removed for other things", "and i thought personally i thought that it was appropriate to leave the restrictions and size in there", "it's also my belief that there's not the market for certain franchise like panera bread in that area", "so that's where i would stand with that", "yes i've got a procedure question", "yup", "it's my understanding or i thought i heard a rumor that the select board could approve these zoning changes but not go to the voters", "so that's number one and is that", "and can the select board make changes and just make minor changes and just go ahead and review it we should lay out for everybody exactly where we are in that process", "sure jeff do you wanna jump in so the schedule from two years ago when we did the big zoning rewrite we wanted to put those in front of the voters and we had a specific deadline", "we were under the impression at the time to have an australian ballot", "we had to have a special meeting to make it australian ballot", "there's an additional deadline for that", "for the gateway zoning this year i went along the same path and we were on a deadline to warrant a meeting for considering questions as australian ballot on january 14th", "and that would have made the deadline to make any change to approve the ordinance december 15th", "now after going through the location change for this meeting and talking to the attorney this afternoon he's pointed out a section in the law", "that basically says a bylaw or an amendment or a repeal shall be adopted by a majority of the members of the legislative body at a meeting that is held after the final public hearing and shall be effective twenty one days after adoption", "unless by action of a legislative body the bylaws are worn for adoption by the municipality by australian ballot at a special irregular meeting of the municipality", "and the attorney says what that means is that the select board could approve it automatically for a vote of the municipality by australian ballot", "so there's no longer that interim meeting step", "so we actually have a few more weeks to be able to make changes warn another public hearing and move the measure by to town meeting to be voted on by australian ballot", "so we could potentially do that in early january or if you don't want to make any changes you could move it forward now or if you don't like the measure at all you could wait a longer period of time or not enact it", "right", "so you basically have one hundred and twenty days from november 17th to be able to make that decision", "so chris", "that's the legal analysis and the political one is that after the defeat of the omnibus zoning proposal two years ago i certainly made a commitment to richmond voters that if we were gonna consider significant changes to zoning and significant i know is open to", "it's in the eye of the beholder but that it go to popular vote", "and we have the", "the select board has made has voted to make some specific changes mostly about the flood plain which i think was appropriate", "but something like this as numerous people have talked about raises all kinds of questions about the town plan and the revision thereof", "and definitely to me seems like something that's appropriate for australian ballot", "and the question is how to me in the role that we have is to bring it forward in such a way that it is", "that there's clear support from the town in australian ballot", "i think something like this you don't want it to be close", "you don't want it to be contentious", "you want it to reflect the will of the town", "and the worst thing that could happen is for this", "for everybody involved the reaps the other developers is for this to go up too soon and be defeated because if it's defeated then doing the right thing becomes almost impossible in the timeframe that we're talking about", "so that's it all on the table from me and that i think we're headed in the right direction but our", "do we have time to get to where we need to be politically for there to be the kind of support that i think the town needs to have for these kinds of changes so i just want to add to that before oh", "i was under the impression that it still impacts potentially the water onto in some of the development that would make really support those water users and decrease help decrease their rates", "so i guess i wanna hear from jeff or if anyone can tell me if that's no longer the case that those are kind of a parallel track", "and then my other question is the last time the zoning was defeated wasn't there a really long process to public hearings prior to the zoning am i wrong was that", "i guess i", "there are two different questions but first of all what's the impact if the zoning amendments do not are not brought forward at this time right yeah", "so sorry you're correct in", "our original plan was these were on a parallel track that if we were gonna extend water and sewer it made sense to be able to allow the potential users to take advantage of that through additional development partially to offset the costs", "as that idea has developed we've discovered", "alter what's in the gateway", "so yeah if these zoning methods aren't really considered at this point will it impact current development opportunities to current of that development", "well potentially it could and we've talked to the names and they have to have a plan for private homes for public water and sewer", "they're really the only ones that have any play", "that's different though what you're saying and i would like to invite the reaps to comment on this too is that the reaps need a decision about whether water and sewer is being extended out there", "the question about whether zoning gets changed in that is different", "it obviously affects your planning as well but it's not that immediate one about investing in water or how you invest in water and sewer", "so i agree with that mostly", "if they don't have the ability to have more development on their lot the public water and sewer becomes less attractive to them", "so even if it ran by their property it may not be financially feasible if they don't have the sort of commercial density to be able to take advantage of it because it's expensive", "and i think the value of that public water and sewer goes down if you're not allowed to take advantage of that", "because i would say it's single family homes i have said this before i don't think there's any value for them to put on right now if all of a sudden it's gonna be as a single family home", "so we decided to write a letter to the select board rather than to see about every position that you've all brought up", "but i clearly would like everyone to know that we didn't ask for all of these changes", "there were many changes that were added and we never asked for them", "so it's not all about our property", "it wasn't us", "we've had people literally stop our employees in the airport and say oh the route's gonna turn into willesden this isn't about us we didn't ask for a lot of these things and actually we don't want some of these things to happen", "so if you voted in they're aware of the things that we think are troublesome for our development", "and actually we think that in some ways the planning commission went too far and we saw that at the meeting", "so a lot of you weren't there for those but we just wanted everybody to know that's how this all happened", "it wasn't all us so", "yeah we tend to pick on the reaps for better or worse but this yes", "this is the way that things change", "it's because somebody takes an interest", "this is the way it's supposed to happen i guess mmhmm", "so", "i just was thinking what we're doing here tonight is what we're seeing is an opportunity that we", "that's in many ways a great opportunity for development in this area but the zoning it always goes too far and in other ways it doesn't go far enough", "and to source it i think we'd like to see it i think what i'm hearing in general is that there's maybe a two phase approach is appropriate", "where some of the restricts some of the current zoning changes are tailored a little bit more towards this project assuming that the water is sort of can go forward", "but then in light of the fact that with water and sewer going forward we could see an intense pressure an opportunity for additional development in the gateway that would require a lot more definition of regulations", "and in line with the town plan for the most part", "so to some extent i think there might be a lot more comfort if people knew that phase one is to basically find out what is required to develop this one piece of property that's actually an opportunity for us in many ways", "and if phase two is very quickly before", "if it turns out that water sewer is feasible that there is commitment from the trailer park et cetera to be participating in this then we instantly immediately begin another round of regulatory changes for review", "does that make sense i think that makes a lot of sense", "i mean i would like to take a look at the recommendations that are prohibited and if we do have another meeting can we", "are we allowed to make some of those yes we are so go ahead and then i'll speak", "so i was hearing chris say earlier that the worst thing is to push this through and have it get defeated", "and so maybe the town needs more time to talk this through", "and if it's gonna go to australian ballot it doesn't have to be at the march meeting right it could be in november", "would that be i mean there's other options", "it doesn't have to be decided by the march meeting", "correct it doesn't have to be on the time meeting date ballot", "i'll just observe there are some timing issues on a specific on the reap property", "right", "there are issues for them they will face forks and roads", "so if you're a developer you ain't gonna sit on a piece of land for three years while the town sorts it out", "so i guess i would observe that if the reap zone is property they're either working on the current under the current zoning and that has certain implications", "they operate under these revised rules", "those are really the two options right now", "in the near term i don't see another approach given our political process through the planning commission to come up with a new idea that's gonna be refined and vetted and voted on in the next few months", "but isn't it the case that the most important factor is whether or not water and sewerage gets extended to the property and that that's at least a year until that", "if it is extended until that it'll take a while", "yeah", "and the planning process for any developer probably starts before that", "oh of course", "yeah yeah yeah", "but can i just ask a question yeah", "you and correct me if i'm wrong you have the ability to make some changes hold another hearing", "correct", "and then i'm not sure how that fits with the time other timing", "correct so i mean basically the opinion from the attorney this afternoon is that holding another hearing in january if we made changes say on monday or the next meeting after would be an appropriate time to hold that hearing and again decide is this going to the march ballot or is this not going to march ballot", "so given the time and it feels like we've exhausted comments from the public right now asking the board if they would like to drop this onto our agenda on monday which is our next scheduled meeting to discuss many of the ideas that have come forward today", "or the other two options are to drop it all together and to bring it up after march", "well not after march but without the implication of still considering the march timeline", "so basically the question is do we talk about it on monday with the intent of considering changes and staying on the march town meeting day ballot timeline or do we decide to drop that timeline and really there's no", "there's no reason not to stay on the timeline if we can do it in a thoughtful way", "and i think that we're doing that right now", "okay can i ask a question sir", "yes a clarification though the ability to have an additional meeting in january it's essentially an additional meeting in january right in order to stay on the march timeline", "well it could be on our regular meeting yeah", "yeah but that wouldn't allow us to do what gary was talking about and sort of engage in the revision of the town plan", "right that's like a three year process though", "that can still happen", "that will still happen", "yeah i'm not sure you'd need to revise the town plan to extend some changes", "they would still fit the town plan", "the only question i have is the town meeting is when most people vote and we wanna get as many people voting on something like this", "so if you do a separate vote you may not get a full town in and then you'd have to probably wait another year before you present a total rezoning with somewhat more significant changes", "the reason i'm committed to the march timeline is that there's going to be development out there and i think that the changes many of the changes that have been proposed today are good ways to properly utilize the land that we have out there", "and to blow through that timeline i think would be the wrong thing to do because the changes that we have made again are the best use for that land out there", "and i would hate to leave old rules that don't allow us the flexibility of good and smart economic development and then have developers out there run with them so", "and the additional things you brought up i think can still happen when we talked about two phases", "whether we make some changes now that allows for some property to be developed but then continue on the path of making additional changes that can be presented again to the town", "it'd be an ongoing process", "right and in the next few days we can have that discussion are we", "can we narrow the focus of these changes within what has come from the planning commission to achieve that or is there another way to achieve that thank you mr chair", "john", "i agree and i support trying to work in some of those suggestions today and we would like to see that", "i think that this commitment to bring in a town vote is causing you more troubles than it's gonna solve", "i'll say i the last big zoning polls like i voted down", "let's say in the days and they were", "the planning commission held many meetings neighborhood meetings they went in person to different land owners", "did a lot of those things and in the few", "in a couple of weeks before the vote came we saw a sign saying ups going up saying vote it down less regulation when some of the proposals", "part of that proposal was gonna reduce the levels of regulation", "when you bring something complex like this to the public it's gonna be boiled down to a lot of misinformation comes up", "people are voting on it sed on who posts something extraordinary to the front porch forum", "you're not gonna be helping the public or meeting their needs by trying to cook something up and bringing it to them to vote", "the reason the select board is given the power to approve zoning changes is because like with the legislation we don't ask our state", "we don't vote on bills that our state legislature wants to approve because it's too technical", "it's too detailed", "you're the ones who have the oversight and responsibility and the opportunity for oversight cause you have the responsibility of going a little deeper", "the public is not gonna do that in the vote and i think you could accommodate some of the requests here", "we can hopefully get this thing moving quickly so that the reaps aren't held out dangling for longer", "you can meet some of the desires for water and sewer development if you", "if you go through a process with the planning commission as well", "and then you guys make the final", "let the planning commission give you a proposal you guys debate it and make a decision", "but the months you have to wait for a public vote is gonna cost you and the decisions can be made based on hearsay", "and then you end up not on the subject thank you", "i agree", "all right so we're coming up here", "we're gonna go one two three and then the board's gonna make a decision here", "yes i'm to that i would just add that i think possibly you could get consensus and you could actually avoid this innuendo here", "is if it's carefully presented and with all due respect to the town the planning commission from a businessman's perspective the amount of presentation of this information has been very very small", "where is the budget just where are the justifications where's the assumptions that have been written out for us to actually drive this i mean the last planning commission set itself up or the last planning commission hearing kind of set itself up or a firing line because there wasn't enough information for people to actually digest", "to actually be able to see oh here's what the intention is", "so i would ask you very very carefully", "if you do put this up for vote write out all those things those assumptions and those justifications so that we know what the subset actually is describing", "yes what are the appropriate forums for the two underlying issues the one that probably would have the most immediate impact is the sewers is the water gonna go out there or not what determines that what's the inquire i think that's gonna have the single biggest change on what this looks like", "changing from a cat plant and a parking lot to a cat plant parking lot and a bunch of other stuff we don't want", "so what's the forum for that and what's the plan for the general plan the gateway and do we wanna put there this someone said a different town plan", "is that a separate issue or who's the body that we should pay attention to and feed into regarding development depends on the select board and the planning commission", "i just don't know where that input should be but i think the water since this was parallel with the water", "i thought naturally this is where it came from and i thought that this is the exact forum or this is how we found out about the sewer line", "so where do those two things pass through okay so the water sewer planning the extension is still going on at the water sewer commission", "those meetings happen an hour before each select board meeting", "it's definitely appropriate to discuss them there with the select board as well", "since as you can tell they're very much related", "one goes in hand with the other", "at this point these zoning changes are with the select board and they're gonna stay with the select board until the end", "comments questions should all go through jeff", "and then they get", "if you wanted to address the entire select board send your comments to jeff he forwards them onto us", "please come to our meetings", "our next meeting is on the 15th which is on monday at one thousand seven hundred pm here", "can i just add that the town sure", "the town website does have a lot of all the postings of the meetings", "and there are a lot of different committees that meet and they're really looking for public comment", "so depending on what you wanna comment on", "yeah it happens most of them are right sure sure", "okay so if you have more information you need to send our way all our contact information is online and also go through jeff", "he'll get it out to all five of us", "okay i just say my name is", "i really think this needs to go to a public vote", "it's just too important and i don't think it's", "it's not like it's a fifty page document", "it's three pages the public can understand three pages", "thank you okay", "what does the board wanna do here i would suggest bring this to monday's meeting", "yeah", "so what does the agenda look like on monday the agenda has mostly budget items on it and a couple of group contracts", "all right", "i think we are obligated to do it and it's fine to let it season for a few days and say how are we doing", "like we have a couple of decisions to make", "okay both content and concept", "right i agree", "so no action to be taken today", "in that case the only matter of business is to close the public hearing", "is there a motion to do so is there a second second", "all that's in favor say aye", "aye", "the hearing is closed thank you everybody", "thank you"], "name": ["Richmond_Selectboard_Gateway_Zoning_Hearing_12-11-14/Richmond_Selectboard_Gateway_Zoning_Hearing_12-11-14/Richmond_Selectboard_Gateway_Zoning_Hearing_12-11-14_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "Richmond_Selectboard_Gateway_Zoning_Hearing_12-11-14/Richmond_Selectboard_Gateway_Zoning_Hearing_12-11-14/Richmond_Selectboard_Gateway_Zoning_Hearing_12-11-14_DOT_flac_00001.flac", 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833, 859, 5406, 16515, 5283, 4710, 10580, 1270, 4730, 1510, 2760, 3440, 2060, 833, 988, 1139, 3530, 950, 2150, 2580, 1019, 833, 5668, 1543, 833, 1846, 833, 2613, 7702, 2170, 3040, 833, 13597, 4900, 4918, 2872, 1250, 7120, 7100, 18432, 8704, 29220, 833, 1689, 1270, 1845, 5583, 4890, 4420, 9847, 3643, 12440, 1044, 5633, 833, 1564, 1080, 11460, 13380, 1591, 1122, 8347, 5160, 4740, 2943, 3680, 10790, 1039, 833, 833, 3975, 4280, 1042, 10148, 15315, 833, 1057, 1560, 1770, 2500, 1512, 3583, 833, 3582, 3072, 3033, 833, 11265, 2617, 8110, 2000, 8438, 3169, 5451, 833, 3967, 8220, 6365, 1115, 1828, 850, 1000], "label": ["the family and medical leave policy student activity accounts and long range strategic planning", "eight hundred and twenty pm the bicounty collaborative quarterly report of ms fanelli", "eight hundred and twenty five acceptance of donations", "eight hundred and thirty five the school committee will go into executive session for the purpose of discussing negotiation strategies with union personnel the foxborough extended day staff", "the committee will return to open session", "eight hundred and fifty we will return to open session vote on the proposed twenty million one hundred and sixty two thousand and seventeen foxborough extended day staff memorandum of agreement and then nine hundred pm other matters", "before we go on to visitors first we would like to offer our condolences to joseph garrity in the loss of your mimi", "i speak for the whole committee i'm sure in saying we offer you our sincere sympathy and deepest condolences joe on your loss", "thank you", "you're welcome this one maybe we could take a brief moment i know it's just been a hard week for all of us who knew pat very well", "and certainly joe you've been conducting yourself just wonderfully", "and you have so many people here that care about you and the whole town so", "it's been a hard thing", "maybe a brief moment of silence please", "okay", "now do we have any visitors who wish to be heard seeing none we'll move on to approval of minutes", "maybe we should take them in date order", "we have the april 4th two thousand and sixteen minutes", "janet has put a corrected version on the table of a couple of corrections on page two", "so we gonna have any no i recommend that we accept these as presented", "okay did you have any just no i was gonna second no i was gonna second", "just one thing i think it's a spelling thing on page three under the fy16 budget update", "second sentence from the bottom and courier vehicle is that the cou", "i know that some of us are a stickler for spelling and i don't know how'd that get past me but i'm so glad you're fixing that", "it's courier it's courier", "with beverly's motion as amended i don't know if we can proceed", "i know just need a second but thank you for pointing that out", "marilyn seconding marilyn seconding i did", "all right all in favor of approving the minutes forty", "i should say mr gardner is unable to be here tonight i forgot to mention that at the start of the meeting but since i'm here in his chair and he's not here he's unable to join us tonight so i will be running the meeting", "all right so those are done", "the next meeting minutes of the april 12th two thousand and six policy subcommittee meeting minutes", "does anybody have any changes rose if you'll accept as presented", "i second", "thank you marilyn", "all in favor aye", "forty", "all right", "dr baylor are you ready teaching and learning highlights", "i'm actually gonna move over to the guest table so i can access the laptop there", "fabulous give you a moment to get over there", "i also had the pleasure of attending the district wide parent technology night and that was very", "the fifth one i thought it was wonderful", "me too i thought it was the best ever actually", "yes i would agree with that", "and one of the things that i thought was definitely one of the best ever i'll wait till she gets set up", "but i thought which is why we kind of wanted to show this tonight is the video this is the part of the welcome in the auditorium", "but i thought the whole welcome was among the best so i give amy all the credit for that and erin hier our tech director", "and i will just have one thing to say cause there's so much that you can say after but i felt the difference between the first few and this our fifth was that the first one or two and i said this to amy on the evening that the first couple of years we spent a lot of time in that introductory message saying we wanna highlight all the good things we're doing related to technology integration and how technology supports the learning the teaching and learning", "but i felt we were still apologizing for we weren't", "and so we always had to offer the caveat okay these are all the great things but here's also where we're going and we know we need more of this and we know we don't have any mobile devices and we know so i felt the first two years we were still offering that balance of what we have that we're proud of where we honestly acknowledge where we need to go", "and i think that's what really struck me in amy's introduction was we don't do that we're not doing that any more we're actually just highlighting the wonderful ways that technology supports our staff and our students in the process so for me that was the big takeaway but amy did all the work so i'll let her talk to you about it", "well it took a village truly to put it together and what i wanted to just recap was the powerpoint presentation that we had in the auditorium just a couple of slides to set the stage here", "but again back to debbie's point is the video that was put together", "because the point of the evening really is to show how we're using technology in classrooms", "and it's what the teacher is doing with our curriculum", "and we always go back to the strategic plan and our technology plan being really the purpose and the intent", "and focusing on what our goal was which is really to show how we are leveraging technology in the classroom to improve student learning", "simply stated", "our vision really is to make it to where it is a compelling learning environment and one where kids are engaged", "and they're able to think critically and collaborate with all of the tools that we have through office three hundred and sixty five and to communicate and to have all that creativity with being able to produce things not just consume", "so speaking to where we've been in the last five years this was our fifth annual technology night plan for parents", "we had more teachers involved with more students involved down to first graders showing how they're using interactive whiteboards in their classrooms to high school as well as what it looks like in the autocad and then classroom as far as computer architecture design to physics software that we're using", "so many different pieces", "and based on all of those different ways that technology is being used we wanted to try to capture that across the district", "and we've spent the last several months our three technology integration specialist really capturing snippets of video from elementary classrooms middle and high what it looks like on a daily basis and how it really does spread across the curriculum", "so when we look at our journey and what that looks like in the classroom it really does come down to carrying out that vision we needed to increase our network infrastructure where the community and this committee has been so supportive in order to be able to have the capacity to do what we needed to do building human capacity with our three technology integration specialists now having darlene reed at the elementary level deanna brosio at the middle school and julia greenstein here at the high school and being able to work daily with teachers and how they're integrating technology in their curriculum again that supportive community and truly it is the collaborative nature of this district and the teamwork to be able to bring it all together", "we focus on technology integration the actual standards but it is embedded within our current curriculum so it plays out daily", "promises there", "and before i get to the video to show what this looks like across i think that this one particular quote here from bill gates actually where technology is just a tool in terms of getting the kids working together and motivating them the teacher is the most important", "and that's what we see each day", "and that's what parents were able to see whether they visited the classrooms for presentations or whether they came in here into the media center and visited poster sessions where they could see snippets of what takes place in classrooms", "so just to fast forward here to the video again this video was captured over several months", "it was captured from our three technology integration specialists as well as some of our teachers coming together", "and deanne ambrosio our middle school technology integration specialist took all of this raw footage and put it together in a video and i think that you'll be quite amazed of what is taking place across the district", "welcome to the fifth annual parent technology night thank you for coming", "the foxborough public schools envisions a compelling prek to twelve wearing environment in which students and staff have access to technologies that promote 21st century teaching and learning", "this environment leverages technology to provide access to authentic learning experiences that maximize student achievement and prepare students to be productive citizens in a competitive global society", "bring your own device also known as byod allow students to bring personally owned mobile devices including laptops tablets and smartphones to school for educational use", "this is what i'm gonna bring to school today", "i have all my school downloaded websites on here i have all like office three hundred and sixty five it's extremely helpful it's really good to get homework done and stuff", "it works on all the wifi here it helps me get stuff done faster i really like carrying it around", "the device is in the class in one sense like if they were to drop the ball seeing how high it bounces back up next to a meter stick", "it gives them a really good accurate measurement if they do it in slow motion to see exactly how high by the ball comes back up", "and i liked it for getting good accurate measurements if i've got a survey in class or kind of an exit ticket we can do it digitally", "and the kids will type in their answers on their devices", "they show up immediately instead of having to wait till they get home", "sixth grade students use their own devices in my class and has filled public service announcements on the ramifications of the dangers of bullying", "we took a runnerup award for massachusetts aggression reduction center and i'm very proud of the kids", "office three hundred and sixty five provides our community with office applications such as word excel powerpoint onenote outlook and suite", "these apps can be installed across multiple devices including pcs macs tablets and phones", "in addition office three hundred and sixty five provides online storage with onedrive and video call if you use skype", "office three hundred and sixty five in case like you want in literature or a question on homework or anything like that and then you can use onedrive to going and seeing projects you can just see them on there and do it but you can access it on onedrive on anywhere", "my dream instead of having it paper filled in is to have a wonder notebook filled with all of your ideas including pictures that you have your own something you can keep forever and hear about science forever let's you have a giant screen to work on and then you can paraphrase in the margins and they don't run out of room in the margins in their paraphrasing", "so they have a giant like a giant mural to work on", "this is all gonna look amazing i must say", "what we're doing is we're trying to place qr media codes over the school so we can have a bit more of a schedule", "one of the online platforms that i enjoy using for my class is called tablet", "and i use it as online bulletin boards chat rooms online work submission as well as web classes they just double click and then they're able to submit files from their computer or links on their computer", "i like to use a group in my classroom because i think it's a great way to have the kids be engaged in their own review for a test or grades", "what's great about the group is that does give us a nice data analysis and breakdown they are actually getting quite competitive for the digital scoreboard", "and what i focused on very pleasing is that some of the most struggling students end up seeing their name up before other", "it's a wonderful tool to help them get these thank you that was really special", "so there's lots of different ways technology is used from the instructional videos from recording for fluency and when the first graders are there recording their voices and reading and they hear themselves they go back and wanna read again and continue with that", "so it is engaging", "it's exciting for them what they're learning in different classrooms", "some of the parents that evening would ask questions is this going on in every classroom we teach the same standards and grade levels but how we approach that is different", "we might use technology in one way in one classroom and meet that same standard a different way in another classroom", "and the beautiful thing about that is they're exposed to different ways as they go through each of the grades to technology and really become proficient and so many different tools as well as software programs", "the one that you saw at the beginning where it was the they were creating badges", "so when you think about online and the badges that you can earn in different ways whether it's social media or different games and things those are the things that our students are doing and here at the high school", "so it really is some amazing things that they're exposed to and then what they end up creating in the end and it really is what's enhancing learning", "does anyone have any questions comments very impressive", "giant leaps", "giant leaps", "i agree with the giant leaps i mean having gone to all five of the last five parent technology nights the progress from the first year to this year is just amazing", "even the difference in what my now tenth grader was doing in eighth grade and what my now eighth grader is doing in eighth grade with the same teachers same curriculum but the technology has evolved so much in two years it's very exciting what is happening i think on a daily basis", "and you know one of the things that makes me the happiest is that not only have we really come leaps and bounced thanks really to this committee and the community who has supported all of our requests to add technology in different pieces but we've done all that while preserving our focus on teaching learning", "we didn't just say we needed a new initiative called technology we're gonna buy stuff", "so by maybe taking it a little bit slow the first couple of years back before say going over the last nine years that taking a little bit slowly really helped us preserve that idea that it's to serve up the curriculum", "it's not a means or an activity or an initiative in and of itself that we really have achieved that goal over time", "well i think the committee has supported you know the last few years the addition of the technology integration specialists and the supervisor and that has really led our teachers to be able to blossom in their use of technology", "so adding those positions has really been critical to maximizing the potential", "right that's actually it's not just the things", "yeah", "it's the human resource support that must come with the efficient and effective use of the things", "not make it to something new like here you go when i see tom i know tom's been around for a while and that's what we didn't do which i think is a mistake often that's cause it's kind of exciting and interesting and we didn't make that mistake", "it might've taken us a little bit longer than we'd hoped but we got to where we wanted without selling our souls of what we believe in", "so i think that's i couldn't be prouder", "yeah debbie spinelli brought it up earlier but i think it bears mentioning again or more that aside from the curriculum that we've done in the excellent work of the implementation and hopefully good adoption among the faculty", "i think a lot of credit needs to go to bill younker and to aaron heier who are under your administration who've produced a lot of the behind the scenes very important and highly technical and sometimes financially complicated implementations of this these laptops don't grow on trees and we have to be able to buy them and we've been able to get there and in the absence of our chair mr gardner i'm sure that there's more to do but this has been a remarkable three years or so in this process", "and there's always more to do but you made me have thought actually that because they have a vision hearing bill for the procurement of the things that we need we actually haven't increased our capital technology we've just repurposed it more flexibly so that we're not buying as many as what you would think of the standard desktop but we're buying the things we'll really use in the capacity that we believe they should be used", "so i think that's important to know it's not that we've necessarily asked for extra on top of what we already have", "we're just using the funds that we are lucky enough to get each year in a different way to achieve our goals", "so it definitely that is a big part of it is to have that vision of what is the priority and what can we do without or how does that philosophy shift what we hope to get versus what we've traditionally purchased so that's been a big help", "thank you amy", "that was great", "yeah thank you amy we appreciate it", "the work of many", "it was a great night thank you", "really a great night", "it sure was", "do you wanna stay there or wanna join me hurry up", "have a seat", "so as we know mr murray is our department chair for social studies but for high school", "welcome tom really see if you", "yes", "i'm here to ask for a new textbook adoption for the ap european history", "this has been proposed from two summers ago when we finished off the social studies evaluation and one of our needs was to find a european history textbook", "mr todd kayes has been teaching this class for over fifteen years now i looked up that number since kevin mccarthy left he's taken this class and he's done some great things with it", "he's been using the same textbook throughout", "and when he went to a conference a one week conference two summers ago and he met a lot of people he got five or six i think it was five different textbooks we looked at and this is the final one that he and i came down with", "and the reason why this is gonna be such a great textbook is they adopted this textbook as they made the changes to the test itself", "so there's some great resources that go with it", "the professor who wrote this actually mr kayes is our head as a professor at penn state university which was only a coincidence but the fact is this is an outstanding textbook we're very excited to hopefully adopt this for next year", "and going back to that k12 social studies review that we did two years ago actually when you go back to the timeline that we had proposed for this text it would have been last year", "and i think that speaks to being really thorough and thinking through what exactly do we need in order to make sure that we're best meeting the needs of the students and we're doing it in a timely fashion but we're not jumping into it at the same time based on the changes that have happened with the ap college board now", "yeah very thoughtful process", "absolutely", "so the total cost for purchasing fifty copies is six thousand and forty eight", "yes it is yeah", "and that would be the high school textbook", "that's why sixteen why", "all right anybody have any additional questions comments no i'll make a motion that we appropriate six thousand and forty eight for the purchase of this of the fifty copies of the new history textbook advanced placement european history textbook", "i'll second that thank you marilyn all in favor aye", "forty", "thank you", "thank you", "thanks guys thanks tom", "thank you exciting", "and thanks again for the technology because as a classroom teacher i can't say enough good stuff it changes the whole dynamic of the classroom", "when the kid's excited we just got to presidential who is the best president", "we started with mckinley we went right up to the present", "it's just the kids are actively involved and the kids get vote through kahoot so every kid is involved in this whole process and it's not me who's making the decision it's the class who's making the decision and it's really been a game changer from that to powerpoint when one person who's helped develop a powerpoint and everybody else would take credit for it it's totally different now that everybody actively participates and everybody because it's online so you can't kind of fight your way out of it", "everybody has to be involved", "yeah you know what the student engagement comes a little bit more naturally without the teacher having to work hard on student engagement harder than you have to because they want to be involved", "everybody's getting like we did one with seniors in preeconomics and they were reluctant at the beginning then when they were excited because look i gotta do my part of it and that's really a nice thing", "that's a great point great", "thank you", "i'd be interested if they did think who was the most effective president", "it was concluded it was john f kennedy", "and i didn't think i thought it'd be teddy roosevelt personally but it was the kids who did it", "and the kid who ran with it he was awesome", "that's great thanks tom", "thank you thank you", "thank you all right", "we're a little ahead of schedule but that's all good", "we got lot of policy coming up", "so our next agenda item is the first reading of three policies", "the first one is policy gcccgdcc", "i don't know who titles these family and medical leave", "we'll thank masc for the lettering process on that", "we don't know who else to thank", "so that is the first one and you have in your packets the current policy which is quite short and debbie and i met and discussed this and went through the very lengthy family leave policy", "i think it looks to me that when the policy handbook was initially adopted this was probably put in as a placeholder it sort of just references the family and medical leave act", "the new policy really delineates exactly what our employees are entitled to family and medical leave act", "so debbie do you want to start with", "i will start", "all right suggested new policy gcccgdcc family leave policy family medical and small necessities leaves of absence", "a purpose the family and medical leave act fmla of one thousand nine hundred and ninety three allows eligible employees twelve weeks of unpaid leave twenty six weeks for military caregiver leave per year under the circumstances outlined below", "employees may take leave for the following reasons", "one to care for the employee's child after birth or placement of a child with an employee through adoption or foster care", "two incapacity due to pregnancy prenatal medical care or childbirth", "three the employee is needed to care for his or her child spouse or parent who has a serious health condition", "four the employee is unable to perform the functions of hisher position because of a serious health condition", "five the employee is next of kin to or needed to care for a covered service member who incurred a serious injury or illness in the line of duty up to twenty six weeks of leave", "this is an exception to the twelve week maximum referenced throughout the policy", "six the employee needs leave due to a qualifying exigency arising out of his her child spouse or parent who is also a military member being called to or serving on covered active duty", "b use paid leave first", "employers are required to use certain types of accrued or available paid leave first as part of the fmla leave before commencing the unpaid portion of the leave", "employees who take leave because of birth or placement of a child or to care for an ill spouse parent or child must first use all accrued vacation and personal time in that order", "employees would take leave because of their own serious illness must use all accrued sick personal and vacation time in that order", "debbie hold up", "mrs panelli pointed out that somehow in our transition we dropped out a sentence that is important to include there is one sentence missing the next to the last sentence should say and the reason i know", "before employees who take leave correct", "so this is a policy recommended by your own school attorney and the sentence that is missing says contractual family sick leave must be used if an employee is out to care for an ill family member", "contract again so", "so it addresses and that comes before", "the boys who take leave because of their own", "their own serious illness", "could you do it once more please sure", "contractual family sick leave must be used if an employee is out to care for an ill family member", "that's a good cash and it must have just dropped out in our editing but i'm so glad that you remembered that", "thank you", "janet do you have that yeah i do", "i have that copy thank you", "i see you typed the note", "okay", "debbie do you want me to take over the next bit of reading or should you like to continue well why don't you do and then we'll swap back and forth", "no kidding", "one voice will not drone on", "okay so we are on c", "it is c", "c eligibility one thousand two hundred and fifty hours in previous twelve months to be eligible for leave under this policy", "an employee must have been employed by the employer for a total of at least twelve months and must've worked at least one thousand two hundred and fifty hours during the twelve month period preceding the commencement of the leave", "certain exceptions may apply if an employee has had a break in service with the employer totaling seven or more years unless the break was due to certain types of military leave", "d conditions one twelve weeks", "employees may take no more than twelve weeks of leave in a twelve month period", "the twelve month period is a rolling twelve months beginning twelve months prior to the proposed commencement of the requested leave", "if both spouses are employed by the employer they are together entitled to a total of twelve weeks of leave for the birth or placement of a child or care of a sick parent", "two notice employees wishing to take fmla leave must give thirty days notice for leave involving foreseeable events", "if the events giving rise to the need for leave is not foreseeable then the employee must give such notice as is practicable under the circumstances", "employees must schedule planned medical treatments with due regard for the employer's operational needs", "e definitions healthcare provider a doctor of medicine or osteopathy who is authorized to practice medicine or surgery as appropriate by the state in which the doctor practices or any other person determined by the secretary to be capable of providing healthcare services", "parent the biological parent of an employee or an individual who stood in loco parentis to an employee when the employee was a son or daughter", "reduced leave schedule it leaves schedule that reduces the usual number of hours per workweek or hours per work day of an employee secretary the secretary of labor", "serious health condition an illness injury impairment or physical or mental condition that involves inpatient care in a hospital hospice or residential medical care facility or continuing treatment by a healthcare provider", "child a biological adopted or foster child a stepchild a legal ward or a child of a person standing in loco parentis who is under eighteen years of age or eighteen years of age or older and incapable of self care because of a mental or physical disability", "spouse an individual's legal husband or wife", "covered active duty in the case of a member of a regular component of the armed forces duty during the deployment of the member with the armed forces to a foreign country", "and in the case of a member of the reserve component of the armed forces duty during the deployment of the member with the armed forces to a foreign country under a call or order to active duty under a provision of law referred to as section 101a 13b of title x united states code", "covered service member a member of the armed forces including a member of the national guard reserves who is undergoing medical treatment recuperation or therapy or is otherwise in outpatient status or is otherwise on the temporary disability retired list for a serious injury or illness or a veteran who is undergoing medical treatment recuperation or therapy for a serious injury or illness or who was a member of the armed forces including a member of the national guard or reserves at any time during the period of five years proceeding the date on which the veteran undergoes that medical treatment recuperation or therapy", "next of kin with respect to an individual next of kin is the nearest blood relative of that individual", "qualifying exigencies excuse me may include attending certain military events arranging for alternative childcare addressing certain financial and legal arrangements attending certain counseling sessions and attending postdeployment reintegration briefing", "serious injury or illness in the case of a member of the armed forces including a member of the national guard or reserves an injury or illness that was incurred by the member in the line of duty on active duty in the armed forces or existed before the beginning of the member's active duty and was aggravated by service in line of duty on active duty in the armed forces and that may render the member medically unfit to perform the duties of the members office grade rank or rating and in the case of a veteran who was a member of the armed forces including a member of the national guard or reserves at any time during such a period", "a qualifying as defined by the secretary of labor injury or illness that was incurred by the member in line of duty on active duty in the armed forces or existed before the beginning of the member's active duty and was aggravated by service in line of duty on active duty in the armed forces and that manifested itself before or after the member became a veteran", "whew okay", "it's not for the fainthearted", "no but it really does spell it all out", "it's right there", "if anyone has a question about how we would deal with these issues it does delineate everything", "f certification employees must provide sufficient information for the employer to determine if the leave may qualify for fmla protection", "in the anticipated timing and duration of the leave employees requesting fmla leave must provide medical certification to support a claim for leave for an employee's own serious health condition or to care for a seriously ill child spouse or parent", "the medical certification must set forth the date on which serious health condition commenced the serious health condition commenced the probable duration of the condition and the appropriate medical facts within the knowledge of the healthcare provider regarding the condition", "in its discretion the employer may require a second medical opinion and periodic recertification at its own expense", "employer responsibilities the employer will inform employees requesting leave whether they are eligible under the fmla", "the employer will also inform employees what if any additional information is needed to process their request", "employees will be notified of the approval or denial of the leave and the reasons therefore", "the employer shall not interfere with restrain or deny the exercise of any right provided under the fmla and shall not take any adverse employment action against an employee for posing any practice made unlawful by the fmla or for involvement in any proceeding under or relating to the fmla", "debbie you wanna take over i will to take over", "h intermittent or reduced schedule leave", "if medically necessary for a serious health condition or qualifying exigency of the employee or his or her spouse child or parent will maybe taken on the intermittent or reduced leave schedule", "if leave is requested on this basis the employer may require the employee to transfer temporarily to a position with equivalent compensation which better accommodates recurring periods of absence or a parttime schedule", "i benefits one health coverage", "employees on leave are entitled to the continuance of group health coverage under the same conditions they received coverage prior to the leave", "employees who contribute to their health insurance premiums via payroll deduction must arrange to pay the premium contributions during the period of unpaid absence if they wish to retain coverage", "in the event that an employee elects not to return to work upon completion of an improved unpaid leave of absence the employer may recover from the employee the cost of any payments made to maintain the employee's coverage unless the failure to return to work was beyond reasons of the employee's control", "two other benefits", "benefits based upon the length of service will be calculated as of the last paid workday prior to the start of the fmla leave of absence", "employees do not accrue sick vacation or personal time while on leave in excess of thirty days", "employees will not forfeit any employment benefits that accrued prior to the start of the fmla leave of absence", "under j sick leave workers compensation leave or other absences", "employees who are out of work for reasons that would qualify for leave under this policy irrespective of whether the leave has been requested under this policy are required upon request to provide to the employer the information and certifications required by this policy", "the employer shall designate all such qualifying leave as family and medical leave which shall run against the twelve weeks allowed under this policy", "k return to work", "employees returning from fmla leave in accordance with this policy will be restored to their original positions or to equivalent positions with equivalent pay and benefits", "employees should contact the personnel department and their supervisors at least two weeks before their return date to make arrangements", "employees may be required to provide a medical opinion from a physician certifying their fitness for duty", "the employer reserves the right to send an employee to the employer's position for a second opinion regarding the employee's fitness to work", "l procedural requirements", "employees returning requesting excuse me i'm beginning it employees requesting an fmla leave must submit the request in writing to their department head", "request should be made thirty days in advance of the commencement of the leave but in any event as soon as practicable", "the employer will provide an employee with a certification of health care provider form", "the employee must return the completed form to the employer within fifteen days from receipt", "want me to take over sure", "this one's a monster it's just long", "rules specific to teachers", "leave taken near the end of an academic term", "the following rules shall apply with respect to periods of leave near the conclusion of an academic term in the case of any eligible employee employed principally in an instructional capacity", "leave more than five weeks prior to end of term", "if the employee begins leave more than five weeks prior the end of the academic term the employer may require the employee to continue taking leave until the end of such term if the leave is obvious at least three weeks duration and the return to employment would occur during the threeweek period before the end of such term", "leave less than five weeks prior to the end of term", "if the employee begins leave with less than five weeks remaining in the academic term the employer may require the employee to continue taking leave until the end of such term if the leave is of greater than two weeks duration and the return to employment would occur during the two week period before the end of such term", "leave less than three weeks prior to end of term", "if the employee begins leave with less than three weeks remaining in the academic term the employer may require the employee to continue to take leave until the end of such term", "intermittent or reduced leave reduced schedule leave", "in any case in which an eligible employee employed principally in an instructional capacity requests intermittent or reduced schedule leave that is foreseeable based on planned medical treatment and the employee would be on leave for greater than twenty of the total number of working days in the period during which the leave would extend the agency or school may require that such employee elect either to take leave for periods of a particular duration not to exceed the duration of the planned medical treatment or to transfer temporarily to an available alternative position offered by the employer for which the employee is qualified and that has equivalent pay and benefits and better accommodates recurring periods of leave then the regular employment position of the employee", "and small necessities one the small necessities act massachusetts general law chapter one hundred and forty nine section 52d became effective on august 4th one thousand nine hundred and ninety eight", "two an employee shall be entitled to a total of twenty four hours of unpaid leave during a twelve month period the twelve month period is a rolling twelve months beginning twelve months prior to the proposed commencement of requested leave in addition to leave available under the family and medical leave act of one thousand nine hundred and ninety three for the following purposes a to participate in school activities directly related to the educational advancement of a son or daughter b to accompany the son or daughter of an employee to routine medical or dental appointments such as checkups or vaccinations and c to accompany an elderly relative of the employee to a routine medical or dental appointments or appointments for other professional services related to the elder's care", "three employees who have accumulated sick personal or vacation time must choose such time as part of the twenty four hours before becoming eligible for unpaid time", "the employer will not provide paid leave in any situation where it would not normally provide such paid leave", "for at least seven days in advance the employee shall submit to the employer a written notice of hisher intent to take small necessities leave and the date and expected duration of the leave", "if seven days notice is not possible the employee shall give notice as soon as practicable", "reference is twenty nine usc section two thousand six hundred and one at seek twenty nine cfr part eight hundred and twenty five at seek and massachusetts general law chapter one hundred and forty nine section fifty two d", "any questions i just have one i'm sorry", "no don't apologize", "on page two b one", "so they're saying if a husband and wife had a baby they can only do a combined four weeks", "like why don't they get the individual that's the way the laws is the state law yes okay", "so four is the rule is the rule of the law", "that is true", "they must share the available time if they're both employees", "right at the same employer okay", "thank you i wanna clarify that", "that's good to clarify steve yes this is rich and thorough and thank you for all the work you both did on it", "i have no criticism of it at all", "i just have a couple of questions", "page one letter c eligibility like and we can answer these later in another reading or whatever we can answer them now pin anybody down but when it describes the number of hours in this case one thousand two hundred and fifty since we have a school year is it the contracted year of say some members of our school system say the union members versus nonmembers cause you have breaks right right but they're actually employed", "are they accumulated okay that helps", "the contracts are year round it is just that the work year is shorter than the contractual year but this actually is the federal law that you have to have been employed for at least twelve months and have to work at least that minimum number of hours in order to be eligible for fmla", "thank you i think you got me right in there debbie", "right on to answer my question the other page two if i may madam chair sure go on steve", "item two", "under d under d yeah this is based on my inexperience with this law", "is there flexibility with say the administration whoever is the stakeholder on helping the employee work through what scheduled planned medical treatments are with regards to the employer's operational needs so i'm not gonna mention any fictional medical conditions but there's gotta be something in the human condition where the person has to go for it", "and is it captured somewhere else or i don't know", "i don't know that it needs to be because we have several people a few people a year that get fmla and the way it actually works is more straightforward than some of the detailed language may lead one to believe", "but basically what that section says is that about scheduled planned medical treatments that if you have a need or an immediate family member has a need that you know the scheduled what the schedule of treatment is then yes you work with the employer to say okay that's actually a better situation than sometimes not knowing what is being faced so because then you're a little more predictable about what's gonna happen and have a little bit more of a plan to cover", "so in other words we're on top of it", "so thank you", "yes that was a good question though", "because fmla has been a federal law for a few decades", "so as you can see so it is it's just that our policy sort of just referenced it", "it said we'll comply with it", "and so if you were an employee looking to see what the benefits were you would have to then go somewhere else", "so the benefit of having it all here as you can see it right in the foxborough school committee policy manual", "steve on that one though i think we need to your question on the last sentence planned medical treatments are like if i'm gonna have knee surgery where it's at my schedule my wish to have done", "i see elect the right it's not talking about an emergency surgery or a need to have one", "got it thank you", "if it's a treatment where you're gonna be ill for a few days each time for example maybe cause i've been through that", "then we wouldn't necessarily wanna schedule it on a monday and then you would only come back in on friday", "so typically people will pick a thursday or friday", "so it's kind of those situations that it's mutually agreeable like this would work for you this would work for us let's come up for something that seems to be of mutual benefit", "sure and then finally medicare page five letter item l it references that the request should be made thirty days in advance with the commencement and leave but in any event as soon as that practicable and the employer will provide", "oh i know is there any language that we need or have already that once the employee submits whatever submission it is to the administration that the administration is required to act within twenty four forty eight thirty six days weeks hours or whatever yes we cover that one", "so it doesn't sit in an inbasket somewhere and", "oh no the cover form says you are or not eligible", "the minute we get it we send it right on", "okay", "and it says you are or are not eligible and it's and then it's sent back", "great", "thank you very much everybody appreciate it", "all great questions great questions", "yeah really", "and what this does it is our old policy that we're getting rid of said", "well we're not getting rid of it but we're amending like i said the superintendent shall issue and from time to time amend regulation setting forth the rights and procedures granted by the app that's really what we're doing", "it took a little while to get there", "this was eight and we're in sixteen but i think this is a thorough delineation of everybody's rights", "no that's a heavy lift", "you did a lot of work thank you", "so with the inclusion of that one sentence i think we've gone through and vetted the new policy", "correct", "and that is the version that your attorney is recommending that's right for your consideration", "okay", "we vote on that tonight or no this is the first reading", "it was the first reading but what i would like to do is i'd like to make a motion that we move this policy family leave policy as amended forward for a second reading", "yes", "thank you second", "would anyone like to second that i will", "thank you marilyn all in favor aye", "forty", "all right so we'll move that forward for a second reading at our next meeting", "the next policy is student activity accounts jjf", "you may remember that back in december mr youther brought to our attention the need to set some limits on the funds to be included in the student activity accounts", "and we voted in december to have a twenty five thousand limit at the high school and twenty thousand at the middle school", "the mesc had some policy suggestions changes based on the massachusetts law so bevy and i took a look at the msac suggested changes and have incorporated those into our policy on student activity accounts and it's not quite as long it's a little bit long but it's not quite as long", "and these regulations have changed", "they have changed", "become a little bit more that's right", "if i could speak more eloquently definitely have become more regulated and more accountabilities built in in more clearly defined requirements", "i think that's reflected in what the suggested language from maec is", "and so i asked bill to take a look at it and give us his thoughts tonight", "and i guess we'll just start debbie do you want to start sure and this one is the long range to do the plan student activity accounts", "student account activities file jjf student funds may be raised to finance the activities of authorized student organizations", "student activity funds are considered a part of the total fiscal operation of the foxborough public schools and are subject to policies established by the foxborough school committee and of the office of the superintendent", "the funds shall be this is added only for the benefit of the students and that's inserted in our old language managing accordance with the sound of business practices which include accepted budgetary this is new and internal control practices", "the superintendent will ensure that annually all principals and student organizations receive a copy of this policy as well as a copy of established procedures for control of receipts and expenditures that meet or exceed dese guidelines", "in compliance with massachusetts general law chapter seventy one section forty seven the foxborough school committee one authorizes the principals to accept money for organized student activity organizations which currently exist or as from time to time it may be revised", "this is new quote all funds received for the student activities must be deposited into the student activity agency account and no funds will be directly deposited to a student activity checking account except for the student activity agency account end quote", "two authorizes the town treasurer to establish and maintain a student activity agency account or accounts which is to be audited as part of the town's annual audit", "the interest that is earned on such accounts shall be maintained by the agency account and distributed annually among the student activity checking accounts as directed by the regulations established by the foxborough school committee policy", "debbie i'm gonna jump in with this next one because bill had given me a couple changes and i've had them on my copy here so i might as well jump in with the reading three authorizes student activity checking accounts for use by the principals with specific maximum balances established by each school for each school by foxborough school committee policy", "this is new payments for expenditures shall be made whenever possible by check debit or eft directly from the student activity that should say agency account not checking agency account", "so agency", "should say student activity agency account", "thank you", "that was a good catch by bill", "reimbursements to personal credit card holder shall require the prior authorization of the superintendent", "signatory authorization for student activity checking accounts shall be restricted to the principal and it should say assistant principal and then strike the parenthetical reference to superintendent or treasurer", "so okay", "the principal and assistant principal", "period and then that parenthetical should come out", "okay", "student activity checking account shall be audited annually in accordance with dese guidelines", "four directs principals to provide the treasurer with a bond in an amount agreeable to the treasurer", "five this is new shall annually prior to the start of each school year vote to establish or change the maximum balance that may be on deposit in each student activity checking account", "oh so i have a question", "so this should be on our radar for annually annually", "annually you're gonna review sort of like you do the curriculum like you're gonna revisit what are the maximum balances allowed on each student activity checking account do you wanna keep them the same do you wanna expand them or do you so every year they're going to revisit that", "but it does say prior to the start of each school year again this was the recommended language based on the changes in the law so we should put it on our calendar for the end of august", "and i mean as long as bill is satisfied that the two recommended amounts of twenty five thousand and twenty thousand if something changes over the summer then we can revisit those amounts then but that's a good catch", "for accounts with limits that exceed twenty five thousand the massachusetts department of education recommends that districts consider an audit constructed by an outside conducted by an outside accounting firm", "my eyes are failing me", "strike two to it just every three years", "so i now have another question", "so just as a matter of that language was always in there that language was always in there", "just as a matter of being consistent", "the massachusetts department of education is now called the massachusetts department of elementary and secondary education", "yes so we should say d", "elementary and secondary education", "we can read these things over and over again", "well i have read this once a night but as you're reading it out loud i hear it", "it makes me think so", "well this was the two thousand and eight skim over familiar words", "nope that's perfect", "so change massachusetts department of education to dese because that is what we've referenced", "spell it out fully massachusetts department of elementary and secondary education", "well we should probably spell it out in the first reference which is up at the top in the first paragraph", "and then we should meet or exceed department of elementary and secondary education parentheses dese", "and then we can just refer to dese", "great that's", "right throughout", "that's perfect oh thank you", "madam chair on the same item if i may and bill maybe you can answer this", "it says whatever the name of your organization you just changed i'm sorry i'm a little blurry on that one", "they use the verb recommends that the districts my question is do we do that or are we going to do that or do we not know yet at this time the guidelines basically state that to do an internal review for the first two years", "and then on the third year the outside auditing firm has to do the audits", "so effectively it's being audited each year", "it's just one every three years is actually done by an outside firm", "okay i didn't know that we have to so we haven't done an outside firm yet", "because the policy basically for us has just been put in place", "so we won't do that probably for another year", "okay thank you", "it does not force you to do it though", "it's saying it recommends that you consider", "and so basically what they're saying is this is good practice", "if you don't do it and you have a problem it's on you", "so that's really what they're saying", "that's why i called every three years", "but ironically they also put it if you don't do it they'll put it in your annual audit", "it's now gonna be a footnote that you're not doing it", "oh okay so the but we are doing it so", "so the law in itself doesn't force you to but what they're saying is you better do it", "i was just bringing it home thank you", "no good point steve", "this whole next section is new and was recommended by masc graduating class funds funds held on behalf of graduating classes are to be held within the student activity checking account for the high school", "such funds shall be designated by the class's year of graduation such as class of one thousand nine hundred and ninety eight except once a class has graduated from high school their fund should be removed from the high school student activity checking account no later than two years from the date of graduation", "it is the responsibility of the class officers to arrange for these funds to be removed from the high school activity checking account", "when requested and once all outstanding financial obligations of the graduating class have been met the remaining balance should be removed from the fund by check transfer a payable to the class of xxxx", "checks payable to individual members of the graduating class are not permitted", "should the class officers not request to have their funds removed from the student activity checking account within two years of their graduating the funds will be forfeited by the class and transferred into the general sub fund portion of the student activity agency account", "these funds will then be allocated by a vote of the school committee", "the source is masc march two thousand and sixteen the legal references are mass general laws chapter seventy one section forty seven as amended", "and this should say as amended by chapter sixty six of the acts of one thousand nine hundred and ninety six", "you skipped one last sentence there", "i did yeah the class officers", "the final sentence", "class officers should be given a copy of this policy during the course of their senior year to ensure their knowledge and their obligations to perform under this policy", "i was working off a different copy", "i don't know why", "or you are just getting tired then no i actually don't have that so bev read it in is that right class officers should be given a copy of this policy during the course of their senior year to ensure their knowledge of their obligations to perform under this policy", "thank you deb", "we have too many different i don't know how that happened", "i had a different copy that i was working on", "that's okay as long as we all are aware of that", "yep no that that's the one we should be", "all right", "one more question madam chair for the subject matter experts probably bill or deb is there any language we need to have or is it an accounting practice already in place that defines the accounts that the monies are held in so that say principal being the monies are not at risk for loss like instead of investment accounts or something like that just as checking but", "all well the two funds that exist", "one is the agency fund which is actually controlled by the town's treasurer collector", "it's not controlled by anybody on the school site", "that is where the primary source of money is supposed to be", "that's where all deposits go to", "the student activity checking account is what's actually under the control of the principal or assistant principal within the building", "and that's the one that has the limitations of the two thousand and twenty five", "that is strictly in a checking account that's interest bearing not being invested other than", "just the principal no however the other money is comingled with all town revenues and sources so therefore if they're investing the money out they're investing in this money as well out but they always obviously keep the liquid portion for us", "thank you", "the only comment i will make on this that i'm uncomfortable with but it's state law so we will obviously have to deal with it", "and i actually think and i apologize cause they don't have my copy with me right here but i don't believe the state law allows for the two year holding of the money", "i believe it's actually down to either six or nine months", "but the problem i have with that is in many cases we have graduating classes that are graduating with five thousand to ten thousand which they are specifically graduating with to have for their fiveyear reunion", "and i have a real problem personally giving five to ten thousand to a eighteen year old that basically would have to open an account under their social security number because it can no longer be under any of the the town valued accounts and just dispersing it", "so we typically have seen that the funds stay in our accounts for the five years and at the fiveyear time they usually clear them out because that's what they're using to do as their seed money for their reunion", "at which point obviously i have no concerns that it's gone", "it's not in our control any more", "but i think the state law really does not anticipate that some of these classes will have the size balances they have", "it'd be different if it's a five hundred one thousand dollar account but i have seen ten thousand twelve thousand still in some of these accounts", "so what do we do with that i've actually put a call into our state legislators just to say you really need to really think this one out because i think this is a problem", "absolutely", "personally i don't think that you're if you were thinking that these kids are graduating with a five hundred thing that's not the case and that's not in fact it was not unusual", "this is i've talked to a lot of the people the towns around us and they're the same exact situation", "and i'm sure it's sometimes a far more than that", "so you know", "this was the language that was recommended from masc", "we currently have nothing in our policy on graduating class funds", "so i think for i mean at least absent a change in the law this is and maybe masc put the two years in thinking along the same lines that you did", "i think for now at least this is a good way to go but we should keep an eye on it and make sure we're giving our students the best advice possible when they graduate", "isn't it under our purview if we realize that is really happening that we could recommend under this particular circumstance that it stays until the five year no well what's interesting is i think you might get away and i kept rereading this when you get to it but where it basically says that you will take control of it and put it into a general sub fund portion of the student activity account which technically doesn't exist by state law but anyways we'd put it there", "you could decide not to do anything with it for five years and then disperse it", "so you could effectively use their own wording if this is valid you could use their own wording to just keep it there", "just you know wouldn't be under the class of ninety eight but we would keep track of what the class of ninety eight had type of thing", "so we could we can work around it for the benefit of the class i with this wording you could i think", "okay", "well this is our first reading", "so we'll maybe all give this some more thought", "the mattress strategy the mattress strategy put it in your mattress", "so far it's been really fun so you know", "i just don't think they thought through the individual the effect on the individual", "it could even affect someone's financial aid for example you don't know so i think that that's definitely part of it that until the scenario has actually happened", "and i think at some point they'll say oh oh gee", "we need to fix this right well at least we have the phrase that of the sub whatever it was the subaccount", "well we can massage that we move it from high school and take possession", "right so we can massage that a little bit", "maybe we could get some feedback from our student our class advisors", "well i was gonna say the class advisors", "i think as long as it's the state law area i don't think we'll do any good because we already feel that way so i just don't know", "that i'm sure they will agree with us", "i think it's just questionable let us do a little bit more digging about how other people are handling that and how do you advise the kids how to best take control of the money without impacting yourself as an individual college student", "so we will have more information a month from now but i just don't know if people figured out that", "well this is the recommended language", "yes all good points on that", "we have one more policy", "well actually i would like to recommend that the policies the student activity accounts file jjf be moved forward for second reading with the additions of our corrections and amendments", "thank you", "second", "thank you steve all in favor", "aye", "forty okay", "one more this one's short and sweet", "this was just something this is a housekeeping matter that as we were flipping through our policy manual we noticed that our policy on long range strategic planning was not uptodate with our actual practice", "so that's we're just trying to bring this policy in line with what we have actually been doing over the last five years now i think yeah five years", "so this is file adaa long range strategic planning", "the key element of effective management of a school system is the use of long range plans", "long range strategic planning is strongly supported in the research related to the management of education", "the foxborough school committee and superintendent share the responsibility for setting direction for foxborough public schools", "long range strategic planning is the primary process for effecting longterm direction", "the foxborough school department is committed to the concept of long range strategic planning", "this planning is focused on the major components of the school system as recommended by the superintendent", "this concept will be implemented in the school system as a result of the following process", "a long range strategic plan will be developed to include a three changed from five to three year period", "the plan will be prepared by the superintendent recommended to the foxborough school committee for approval", "and when they're gonna strike the sentence the plan will be reviewed revised yearly", "the superintendent will provide the school committee with an annual update on the plan's progress", "the superintendent will ensure appropriate staff and community participation in the development of the plan", "the timeline for development presentation and approval of the plan is as follows", "i'm gonna strike the original a and then insert a six months prior to the expiration of the current three year plan the superintendent will form a strategic planning work group consisting of administrators staff and community members", "and we'll strike the second the b and insert b a draft will be submitted to the school committee for review and final approval", "and that is that and we'll strike c", "basically a b and c had to do with fiveyear plans which were not working", "i mean we're not doing because we went to the threeyear plan which is working for us i think a more effective way to plan for it", "so does anybody have any questions i think that it's just tweaking", "it's a housekeeping thing and a tweaking just to make sure what we say we're doing is based on what we're actually doing", "i move to accept the long range strategic planning with the amendments made", "to move it forward for a second reading yep please", "do we have a second second", "thank you steve all in favor", "aye forty", "okay", "well we're done with the policy portion of the meeting moving on to the bicounty quarterly update mrs pinelli okay", "so four times a year hence the name quarterly update we get an update from bicounty collaborative which is our member collaborative for special education programming that we do send a few kids to every year and we are a member district", "so this particular update contains information regarding referrals and enrollment status of the budget for bico fy16 parent information events regional training and an upcoming transition expo", "so just to elaborate on a couple of those there referrals and enrollment are continuing to increase for the backup in terms of the collaborative to where they typically are at this time every year which is close to two hundred they have one hundred and ninety six students", "they have had more growth in the elementary programs that they run", "they have been providing which i think is a really good thing they were expanding other services to districts other than just here are some programs and the student you pay us tuition which is the traditional bulk of the activity but they really expand things in the area of homebased services that are really have helped the districts afterschool programing and kids who need that that's for an extended day and professional development of interest to the member districts", "and some examples of that have been that they've been providing some sheltered english immersion training special education content training and other similar things that our faculty is looking for as well", "they have tried to begin some parent education programs which typically doesn't exist in a collaborative that big but they for example they mentioned signs of suicide information which is a program that's used in most of our schools us included", "and they are now using that for that", "and i think particularly interest of families of students with disabilities is that they're gonna be holding a family financial planning night on april", "oh that was april 6th so this has already gone by", "to help families really with topics about guardianship preservation of eligibility of government benefits and entitlement building financial solutions and legal planning", "so i hope that they do run that every year because i think a lot of people are interested in that and they do get that type of information when we have transition night that we run they are running their own transition night as you also see but we do transition night in collaboration with area districts as well", "so those are very helpful family events where you can learn about all kinds of things that you need to set your child up for adulthood and transition to future career", "and i think those things that they've been doing certainly have expanded the services for all of us who belong", "so that's great", "great", "do we need to move to accept this yes accept", "could i just ask a quick question of course the last item was the transition's expo", "are we participating in that as a school district in any way or attending it no because we have our own this is bicounty has well we had there's i think eighteen at this point maybe seventeen member districts is quite big", "so this is the first time they're cohosting their own with their own vendors and everything but foxborough actually runs their own and we move it around sometimes it's in alborough or norton foxborough", "we host a lot", "we do all the group setups we often run it here", "so we already have our own", "and they have rather than relying on all their member districts to have their own transition night or in partnership like we do regionally they are now starting to run their own so that they fill the gap in case they've member communities that don't need families that need that information", "it's good to see other organizations again rise to the foxborough standard", "yes it is", "so i think if some families could have made ours it could go to this one but it's typically for families of students who are attending the bico program although we have our own and they can go from the company", "thank you madam chair thank you deb", "well we have a motion do we have a second", "thank you marilyn all in favor aye", "thanks forty to accept the bico quarterly update", "thank you mrs pinelli", "okay we are back on schedule", "we are", "on our agenda awesome", "and we are at eight hundred and twenty five acceptance of donations", "we have several", "we do have several and several of them from the partners and patriotism funds", "in fact this was on me", "i forgot to ask about the first one maybe oh it says recess equipment", "thank goodness the checks that's what it is", "so this is i'm asking the committee to accept a donation from the partners and patriotism fund in the amount of five hundred to the john j ahern middle school for recess equipment", "and that would be going into the gift account", "motion to accept with much gratitude", "its oh we're doing all three i would do them separately", "i think we just accept them separately yes", "i second all in favor", "aye", "forty", "thank you for the donation of five hundred for recess equipment", "all right", "also from new england patriots partners and patriotism fund a donation to foxborough high school in the amount of three thousand four hundred for their tower garden project", "so many of you are familiar with the tower garden project that we have at the taylor school where we're growing our own food all should go to the taylor school and see it", "they've been doing that for almost two years now", "so they're growing their own greens vegetables and all kinds of things right in the cafeteria at the taylor school and our goal has been to increase this to other schools", "and we actually did get a donation of some of the towers about a year ago from patriot place who used to have them up near where tastings used to be and they weren't being used", "so they actually gave us five towers which we happily took", "and now this is also there are other equipment pieces needed for the tower", "so this is to help with the garden project so that we can start growing food at many or most of our schools", "anything else did i leave anything out and that's that grant was written by alison johnson our food service director", "i move to accept the check in the amount of three thousand four hundred for the tower garden project from the partners and patriotism fund with gratitude", "second", "thank you steve all in favor", "aye", "forty thank you", "so just for example certain specialized lights are required so the towers have been great we'd have to purchase them but as we all know green things require light", "i remember the potato things", "i thought that was fascinating", "yeah that's awesome very generous", "so once again from the new england patriots partners and patriotism fund they have made a donation to foxborough high school and the amount of one thousand to the foxborough high school theater guild", "we're also formerly known as the drama club", "for their metg performance", "that the one that just went on that's the competition the performance yeah i just don't know what", "i feel like i should know what the letters stand for but theater guild is you know what i thought i think that's something massachusetts is something of theater guild", "it's this anyway it's a theater guild", "i just can't call up the e", "usually i'm good at acronyms but", "deb we know what that e is i'm sorry massachusetts", "if miquel was here she could something of theater guild", "that would be good", "massachusetts educational theater guild and it's on the internet so it must be true", "thank you", "thank you steve", "that wireless is just coming in handy", "i never thought of that actually", "do we have a motion i will motion that we accept the one thousand so graciously donated by partners and patriotism for the massachusetts educational theater guild", "i'll second that", "all in favor", "aye", "forty thank you okay", "just before we move on those three alone from partners it's so nice to see how many what a variety of things they support", "so they'll support theater programs they support healthy foods in our food service and recreation to recess equipment", "it really they really are very generous in a variety of things", "and in our students in deca we accepted a very generous donation from the partners and patriotism fund for that", "so i think do what i think appropriately yes exactly", "we all do very generous", "speaking of generous", "yes we have a donation from the raytheon corporation in the amount of one thousand to the john j ahern middle school for the it says they they don't it says this is in honor of they didn't specify exactly what it's for but diane mcdonough and she actually has received an award in the past diane mcdonough one of our middle school science teachers was one of six finalists for the two thousand and fifteen stem science technology engineering and mathematics teacher of the year", "so this is an honor of that", "so it's donated to her school where she is a member of the faculty for their use if for whatever way the school would like to use that to honor her", "the letter says the finalist that five thousand will be used for the stem for stem education", "so i", "doesn't say it doesn't specify stem education for this but it does say the", "that's the winner though", "right the winner will be announced and then honored", "she wasn't the winner but she was i guess we maybe consider it a semifinalist", "yeah", "so i think so the winner clearly got five thousand but the semifinalist if you will", "their school gets a donation", "of a thousand right well i'd like to accept with gratitude the raytheon donation of one thousand in support of the stem program at the high school", "i second that is that okay yes", "all in favor forty", "and you know what would have been nice if i thought if i'm gonna read diane mcdonough we know she's a very creative science teacher", "she has been teaching in massachusetts for thirteen years", "she teaches sixth grade math and science", "if you remember her she was in eighth grade science and she moved down sixth to do both math and science at the middle school", "she cofoundered her school's robotics program and the lego league competitive team", "she is also a stem instructor at milton academy saturday program for gifted and talented students in grades four to eight and she was the two thousand and thirteen norfolk county teacher of the year", "she is quite a talented individual", "it's very impressive so", "congratulations to ms mcdonough", "terrific", "and thank you raytheon for the donation", "all good okay", "all right", "it being eight hundred and thirty now entertaining motion to go into executive session for the purpose of discussing negotiation strategies with union personnel foxborough extended day staff the committee", "i'm sorry roll call yes roll call", "yeah yeah", "we'll be right back roll call vote", "roll call vote debbie", "aye", "aye", "aye aye", "all right", "committee is going to go into executive session", "we will return to open session", "around ten of nine something like that around ten of nine depending on well depending on", "the length of our we'll be back", "awaiting us we shall return", "okay", "right are we ready we are ready", "okay", "so we are still in session and we are back from our executive session", "do we have to have a roll call vote i forget", "do we have to have a roll call vote to reopen i make a motion that we return to our open session", "second to continue it", "okay roll call", "aye aye", "aye aye", "we're back in", "we're gonna have a vote on the proposed two thousand and sixteen to two thousand and nineteen foxborough extended day staff memorandum of agreement", "would anyone like to make that motion i will make that motion that we accept the contract as agreed upon between the administration and the extended day staff", "i second that any discussion none", "okay all in favor aye", "where's yours all right", "thank you for all your hard work on the contract negotiations mrs panelli and bill hickner", "and we actually should compliment our extended day staff representatives who give up their time as well to come and do that", "so they're it's an important program that we run an extended day important for families important to children for the continuity of their day the safety of being in one place", "so i can't say enough about the program", "i think it's terrific and i think they do a great job", "i agree other matters", "mrs panelli the last superintendent's evening coffee of the year is tomorrow night tuesday at the boyden library in the fuller room", "and we're gonna switch it up to cold drinks and some pastry rather than the decaffeinated coffee and the donut hole", "so come one come all actually so dr burleson and i always do that together for whoever wants to show up from our parent family group", "and we are gonna have our guest alison mellow who's our k8 math science director coming tomorrow night to follow up on some of the subjects from the last meeting and offer a little bit more detail about that", "so that's at six hundred and thirty it is six hundred and thirty to eight o'clock at the boyden library fuller room", "we hope to see you there", "all right", "and i just have steve", "i thought you did some those", "i had a couple other things bevy i'll let you", "okay", "i want to thank the world language staff for their world language and culture night which was the most successful one yet", "and they were up to nineteen restaurants and food places around that helped contribute to that", "it seems to get bigger and better every single year", "that is very true it was wonderful", "this one is definitely bigger than any other year", "i know it grows every year and then i also", "i think i would like to compliment kathy laden for putting together such an incredible expanding horizons enrichment programs", "there were a couple of things i wanna sign up i think i've aged out though", "it's a fabulous program", "my kids did that several years when they were first well kindergarten through fourth grade", "no one can say that foxborough does nothing for enrichment for their young people", "this is the time where i say oh thanks for you for remembering it", "i'm sure i'll be seeing it too", "i think you can i'm glad you brought that up because i think you can see that we're running the math camp that we have for many years now but we're also for the second year in a row running our computer science summer camps which we started last year pretty excited about that", "i've been back and forth with them and they are running", "you actually are gonna have a choice of two different weeks this year", "oh that's great", "and if you have someone at the beginner level which is age seven to twelve video game design and they're gonna have a star wars theme one week july eighteen to twenty two and they're gonna have a superhero theme the second week july twenty five to twenty nine", "and then hmm", "i thought we were gonna flip flop morning and afternoon but i'm looking at this and i don't see that", "so maybe they decided not to flip flop", "remember we talking about flipflopping morning and afternoon and so the intermediate level nine to fourteen one hundred to four hundred pm minecraft modding and that will run you'll have a choice of those two weeks as well", "sounds great", "and then i did have one other little thing", "on the math camp i think we were i'm sure we're gonna bring it in as a donation", "we did get the donation", "i noticed that there was no tuition here", "we weren't sure have we accepted that donation yet no it hasn't come in", "but every year they have generously supported the math camp and as you know companies change and grow and we weren't sure if that would continue and it is gonna continue at least this one more summer", "very generously but hmm", "i'm just now going back to that whole morning after we flipped", "so i guess we're not flipping cause i don't see it in there", "so", "it could be they missed it on typing so", "on the registration yeah they might have", "but this is what went home to families", "all right", "well anyway we're running computer science camp two separate weeks cause we had such great interest", "very good", "and throughout the year", "and i wanted to compliment once again the art department on this incredible monumental", "art show and i mean they carry the whole theme totally through and the monumental award certificates match the artwork it's just amazing", "so we have nothing nothing at the school committee can go up and destroy that oh no", "we will look at student artwork forget our blue for a few weeks", "marilyn do you wanna give us an update on the deca have you heard from your son i've heard from him they're having fun lauren alaina from american idol did a concert for the eighteen thousand students", "oh wow", "they're there and yeah can you imagine the enthusiasm with that and i don't know how the competition part's going", "he's just telling me all the fun stuff", "those few little words i get here and there", "i saw on twitter the opening ceremonies was looks so exciting", "it's i didn't get that", "i have to show it to you", "yeah you need to", "it looked so exciting", "so eighteen thousand students there right and it looked it", "and i know that", "it looked like a rock concert i'll show you", "yeah that's probably the lauren alaina", "amazing", "perfomance", "and i just wanted to thank everyone for a wonderful year and i'm hoping to get reelected next monday because i don't want this to be my last meeting", "so okay", "we'll see how it goes", "well good luck to you and all of the other candidates", "all of the candidates", "all of the candidates it's an exciting election year", "marilyn and i will be attending with mrs panelli the mask day on the hill tomorrow", "oh it's an excellent lunch", "we had a phenomenal lunch last year where we went", "so it's a good day", "so actually several important updates this year on charter school funding on transportation bills on chapter seventy funding and what's happened with that up and down and what hopefully will be happening on prek and kindergarten funding", "a lot of really things that do impact our district as well as any district", "so it'll be interesting to see what they have to say tomorrow as to the latest", "and you'll hear about it at our next meeting", "that sounds great", "steve do you have anything for other matters no this is my last meeting yes you're on my list", "and i would just like to sincerely thank the public for electing me and", "that was a big win huh it was a big win the ticker tape parade was the most exciting part through mansfield and foxborough but it truly was one of the most meaningful things that i've ever been able to do in my adult life", "it really was for me and my family and the heart and soul and character in this town is incredible", "and what we've seen over the last three years with students and faculty that have come and gone is a lot of people in the public don't see what goes on in the background all within propriety of ethics but there's a lot of heart in this group and i can't thank you all enough for the kindness you showed me and my family when my parents passed and i will really miss this group a lot", "thank you all", "but you can still come talk to us", "thank you steve thank you steve", "thank you for doing this thanks very much", "it's been a pleasure to talk to you about issues important to our kids and i'm sure we still will", "you all care and the qualities of schools are why i'm here and why other people come here", "and that's why we moved here it was for the schools", "and a lot of regional ice coffee stores that are very close by very important but thank you all", "i love you all very much and thank you all very much", "and to janet the quietest member at our table who does so much for all of us in the background professionally and bill and the other team and joe", "oh joe", "it's not gonna be the same seeing you all the time my friend but we love you here very much", "thank you", "all right buddy thank you", "but i wanna thank you", "i've i have had the pleasure of sitting at a table with you for the last seven years three on the advisory committee and the last three here with you", "and i am going to miss your valuable input your questions your sense of humor and i thank you for your dedication and hard work on behalf of our citizens and our school children", "thank you for everything", "couldn't have been more of a pleasure", "i wish bruce was here and i'll give him a call not in a serial fashion but i will give him a call", "bruce has been an excellent chair over the years and an excellent contributor to our town", "and i'm sorry he can't be here tonight but he means a lot to me too", "well thank you very much for all of your service", "i just had a couple other things to add to the other matters", "i saw that the borough school is doing a walkathon tomorrow to raise funds for dipg research and to honor danny nickerson", "yes", "and i just thought that was", "yes", "they decided to do that annually instead of other community service type things that the school did", "and i think that's a great way for his school family to remember him", "yes i agree", "and i just wanted to mention that because i thought it was a very wonderful way to recognize their classmates and to do community service", "and i also our history department trip to italy and france was a success from my sources tell me they had a wonderful time i know we talked a lot about that trip and they went they came back they had a great time and it's all good", "yes", "that's all i have", "so many good things the music department", "they're leaving on wednesday", "they are it's the festival of music", "it's this week", "no no they're leaving wednesday this wednesday the 22nd", "they are coming back", "oh they come back and then they go to again i'm thinking about the ellington leave day", "two trips i honestly can't keep up with that", "yeah a lot of good things going on", "yes", "and they went to the symphony between the last meeting and that one they did and the symphony on april 16th our ahern school students and our high school students it was magnificent i was there", "we have a lot of good students doing wonderful things", "all right amy anything bill janet well i am gonna say this evening that steve i will miss you as well", "you've been a true gentleman thank you", "i'll miss your little lefthanded backward checks on all those warrants it's nice to know that they were well vetted", "yeah they can still i can still make that stuff happen", "all right and thanks to our friends back there", "absolutely", "who keep the show on keep the show going and keeping the records", "they do a lot of work before we get here and after we get here and while we're leaving here so thanks to our friends at foxborough cable access", "steve do you want to make a motion to adjourn motion to adjourn tonight's meeting", "all in favor", "aye goodnight", "bye everybody", "all right"], "name": ["SC2016April25/SC2016April25/SC2016April25_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "SC2016April25/SC2016April25/SC2016April25_DOT_flac_00001.flac", 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-{"audio_document_id": "StoryWit1950.flac", "identifier": "StoryWit1950", "text_document_id": "StoryWit1950.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [10987, 2953, 4143, 5673, 10610, 5170, 8080, 2850, 5799, 2710, 4093, 8430, 4435, 15600, 7050, 2873, 2410, 9093, 4870, 18733, 6773, 12763, 14580, 9363, 8220, 14443, 10513, 5373, 16190, 6173, 2393, 2280, 2880, 9480, 7783, 13453, 9170, 7453, 6333, 11270, 5073, 12903, 17400, 6623, 6520, 4603, 4300, 6053, 7103, 2720, 3640, 6583, 5243, 11683, 43356, 11073, 5943, 19143, 7320, 13440, 6380, 8063, 21453, 9093, 8850, 1853, 1133, 5813, 14210, 1963, 5033, 2365, 3880, 6800, 18493, 6940, 5990, 8753, 10123, 52240, 12093, 2990, 9758, 4195, 1390, 5763, 2570, 38473, 5990, 8050, 4223, 10944, 5343, 17523, 10483, 9161, 5720, 3513, 16080, 17923, 1983, 2570, 6150, 14864], "label": ["frontiers of science a series of information films presented as a public service documenting the latest developments in medicine and science in the space age", "the future can be found in many places", "it can be seen reflected in the eyes of those who are privileged to look at it", "here at this bell telephone exhibit it can be found in the shape and form", "and made from the metal and the wire the time and the effort of those who are privileged to create it", "now i like to show you what our recent development the transistor may do for future telephone service", "first i'm going to throw this switch and turn back the clock to the days before you could talk on the telephone over distances of say several hundred miles", "now i want you all to listen in while i talk on this telephone", "well i don't think any of you could really understand what i was saying but let's throw another switch", "and start coming back to the present", "now you can hear me clearly over a line that represents the same distances", "that's because we know you as repeater units containing sound amplifying vacuum tubes that give your a voice of boost as it goes across country", "tomorrow will still be here as well as previously", "but look how small this repeater unit is it's smaller easier to make amplifier but made possible by developing the transistor the tiny piece of sound amplifying equipment that requires no warmup time and has an almost indefinite lifespan", "our research people are hard at work finding out what else it may be able to do where else we may be able to put it to use", "this is a business that has always dealt in the future", "that's the way alexander graham bell thought of it", "when the business was started back in one thousand eight hundred and seventy six i was in some haste to invent the telephone but it has urgent work to do", "talks things and makes your laugh and quite an honored work", "in my view of the future the novelty will wear off the instrument will blind it will grow light convenient and familiar to every hand a common tool within the means of every factory business every home", "and connected to a central switching office which can connect any two subscribers in a matter of seconds", "and then i see its lines and poles matching thousands of miles connecting the head office of every city in the land to the head office of every other city", "and then i see perhaps in the next century the tiniest farthest hamlet woven into the wild fabric telephone people must always be looking ahead", "it was that way in one thousand nine hundred and twenty two when you might've heard this kind of conversation by some engineers who had the job of looking into the future", "say charlie got a minute sure what's on your mind take a look at this chart", "what do you make of it well if we keep on adding customers as we have in the past and if our customers continue to place more and more calls with a manual equipment we have in now you won't be able to give the kind of service our customers expect from us", "i'll make you a little bet that never happens oh what's the answer you know that's the question telephone people have been asking themselves for years now", "and the finding the answer and a type of telephone service that switched calls automatically", "it took the time and energy of many telephone people who made use of what was already known about dial switching systems in developing the new equipment and new techniques which would make this better faster automatic service a reality", "but the people they served the future had been met before it ever arrived", "today if most telephones are a dial", "there were problems sure", "dial is a pretty complicated affair", "ask some of the old timers they'll tell you glad to i can still remember how we sweated it out together", "drawing seconds for a dialect changed that could be produced not only on a sheet of tracing clause but on an assembly line as well", "as a production supervisor i know from experience it's tough enough to make a change on a production line that's already in business let alone starting from scratch to set up a new one for something we'd never made before", "out in the field we installation people have always had the problem of installing the new stuff and cutting it into the line without interfering with any one service", "our customers like to feel they can use their telephone any time and making that possible has always been part of our job", "there was the problem of finding a new spot for the operators who handle the manual switchboards that preceded dial", "what happened to the operators there are thousands more today than there were before dial more improvements in telephone service the more calls to handle", "more calls mean more jobs to do and more people to fill those jobs", "we've always felt that in the long run the best equipment we could provide produce the best results not only for the people we're in business to serve but for those who helped to make that service possible as well", "people like frank dubrovnik cable inspector mary jane holmes service representative eleanor o'brien operator luke benson field representative", "each of whom in his own friendly fashion made that service a reality on an ever increasing basis", "if you have any doubts on that score ask those of us pick up our mail at rfd boxes", "since the end of the war well over a million of us have had telephones installed", "the vast spaces of america that represent a living for the farmer", "present a tremendous problem for anyone with the responsibility of providing telephone service in those places", "if to take a lot of construction work a lot of telephone poles to bring in a telephone to someone in a rural area", "we're still using polls today", "since the end of the war we put up about two million of them", "the difference being we now use wire that requirement one pole for support whereas three were needed before", "how come ask the men from our research and manufacturing organizations", "how come they're the ones who follow the job from an induction furnace where they test and it was poured through the prescribed heat treatment", "through the making of the test prior the end time became a red hot snake goes slithering steel racing through a western electric wire mill and eventually turned into the extra spanked telephone line that crosses dave baker's pasture new wires speeding power driven augers that earn a lot of the earth a place to set a telephone pole sharp tongue wire plows that bite into the ground as if they really enjoyed it and lays special rubber covered wire as well as a new way of using power lines as telephone pathways have stretched the long arm of friendly telephone service to many a friendly farmhouse door", "besides serving as a path for telephone wire and acting as a highway for the newest pans continental airplanes that fly so high they cannot be seen only heard", "the air above the earth serves as a highway for something else that can be heard but not seen", "the only visible sign in these conversations is the radio relay tower they come from through whose lens as microwave radio beams carrying not only the telephone messages you speak but the radio programs you hear the television shows you see", "to the next tower on a hilltop twenty five miles away which receives the signal and sends it to the next hilltop tower", "and so on until its destination is reached another communications highway of the present and the future is to be found in coaxial cable", "the basic coaxial cable can handle one thousand eight hundred telephone conversations at one time", "and that's a lot of telephone service not to forget television programs tele typewriter news services and radio programs", "coaxial cable like this has already crisscrossed the country pushed past some of our last frontiers guided by a 20th century type of pioneer who swapped his covered wagon and team of oxen for a diesel power and cable plow and left in his wake not a wagon trail but a network of electronic highways", "another frontier and the everlasting campaign to improve service is to be found in the town of media pennsylvania not far from philadelphia", "it's monday morning in media and mrs douglas of the hill crest avenue douglas's can hardly wait telephone philadelphia to order a real bargain", "she spotted in her sunday paper", "there she goes", "it's an out of town call but she dials the number directly without having to reach an operator", "one of the most important problems that had to be solved to furnish this service was finding a way of automatically keeping track of how long mrs douglas has conversations lasted the telephone number she called and telephone number", "so she could be correctly billed", "this array of impressive looking equipment and the central office went into action to do just that", "it's not enough for the equipment to remember", "it's got to make a record as well here at this recorder", "the billing information from mrs douglas call and others from media is punched out in code on a reel tape", "at an accounting center in philadelphia the information is processed by machines which have had such brains and skill that they can translate the coded perforations into a record efficient does this equipment is it's put an early step in the development of an automatic message accounting system", "in the laboratory is the man who developed new equipment and the men who will have to build it are always at work", "not only in proving what has been developed but creating new things as well", "like the latest crossbar switching system whose automatic switching of telephone calls has made possible operator toll dialing", "however it's one thing for highly skilled scientists technicians to do the power equipment in the laboratory and quite another to mass produce it on a production line", "what goes into it where do we get it how much does it cost what are the conditions under which it must be handled what tools will be required for it's assembly what production procedures will be followed what skills will be required by people employed of this operation what training will they need in addition to their previous experience is adequate test equipment available what rate of production is indicated by the specifications in this case as in all cases the combination of western electric working with the bell laboratories on crossbar switching equipment from the very beginning made it possible for those questions to be answered before they were ever asked and paved the way for operator toll dialing", "a new technique and telephone service that makes it possible for operators to dial long distance calls directly without going through other operators along the way or are at a distant place", "that's quite an improvement in long distance service", "when you consider that in one thousand nine hundred and twenty seven if you wanted to make a long distance call you picked up your telephone and then something like this took place", "number please may i have long distance one moment please", "this is long distance", "i want to call chicago the number is war based twenty ninety eight thank you", "we will call you when ready with chicago", "the long distance operator passed the call on to a line operator who found an available line to chicago and over it reached an operator at the incoming switchboard for chicago long distance calls chicago wall badge twenty ninety eight the chicago operator put the call through to the wall badge central office wall badge twenty ninety eight and finally the operator was able to ring your party time required about five minutes on the average and in one thousand nine hundred and twenty seven that was good long distance service", "today in many places with many more on the way you give your long distance operator the number", "and she called into action the crossbar dial switching system which sets in motion the corresponding equipment in chicago", "and the next thing you know wall badge to two twenty ninety eight is ringing", "time required about one minute we've come a long ways since one thousand nine hundred and twenty seven because we wanted to come a long way", "what's made it tough has been the complicated equipment necessary to give telephone service", "when we develop something new it's a physical impossibility and financially impractical to rip out everything we have in service one day and replace it with all new equipment the next besides who has to tell this man that his call is not so important but that it can wait", "or this girl the country's telephone service can't be turned off while the telephone company changes over to new models", "wherever you go in the villa system from the operators at the other end of your line who take pride in the part they play in furnishing your telephone service", "to the construction people who see to it that tomorrow is telephone lines are put in today", "you will find telephone people building for the future", "the future of the telephone business is bright and rich with promise for the millions of telephone users like yourselves who was quick acceptance and ready use of each improvement and telephone service has helped make possible an endless chain of accomplishments", "what will it be this time an operator dial call to cleveland or the ballet on channel two by means of coaxial cable an important call by mobile telephone service to a transcontinental truck on us one", "to a ship putting out to sea", "or to a train racing across country", "it has been the faith of the american people who have invested their savings in the bell system and the present", "as well as the desire of telephone men and women everywhere to keep on furnishing more and better telephone service in the future that makes this story a story without end"], "name": ["StoryWit1950/StoryWit1950/StoryWit1950_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "StoryWit1950/StoryWit1950/StoryWit1950_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "StoryWit1950/StoryWit1950/StoryWit1950_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "StoryWit1950/StoryWit1950/StoryWit1950_DOT_flac_00003.flac", 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what's your name kendall farrell", "kendall farrell and we're doing the comedy of state this afternoon as an interactive a little bit of an interactive talk show", "hey", "now when the title of the program is everyone has a first time", "and i would say that this is my first time doing a taped show", "but i've actually done a couple shows already", "one was for here channel seventeen", "my friends on the t also did a show with me and we love nikki and emoji", "oh nikki and emoji are hot stuff", "and all things lgbtq out of work in media down in montpelier also did a nice interview for me", "and i'm just excited to have the opportunity to get my message out and bring in some queer comics and have fun with the have fun with my friend kendall", "thanks for having me brenda", "you're welcome", "i'm gonna throw in a little disclaimer that anything that's said here today is actually my opinion and does not represent anybody from the folks that i represent as the excuse me what is it i am i am the liaison for the lgbtqia alliance of vermont", "and as such we'll probably talk a little bit about that as well but i wanna get to my guest kendall farrell", "kendall's from burlington right now and he's a standup comedian", "and this is your i think this was your bio", "yeah i think we pulled it from my facebook page", "whose wry slash style and dry wit has made him a favorite in his home state", "he won the annual vermont funniest comedian contest in two thousand and fifteen profiled seven days regular at the comedy club", "he's opened for headliners all over new england performed on night train", "and how was that was that a big club night train", "it's at a place called little field in park slope and why it's snack hosts", "and it's the lineups they get there are just like insane", "that was a lot of fun and why it was super nice", "nice locally we got a of course at the vermont comedy club comedy and crepes the skinny pancake brews and bros and foam brewers barn party at the zen barn and something that ties in with our theme today which is the united we stand up", "yeah", "that was political", "that was such a fun show danny russell", "and i host that", "some vermonters and i know annie russell from vpr", "yeah", "where she's i think now the deputy news director", "she i was glad to see her", "it was a lot of fun", "that show was a riot", "and also very funny", "oh she was she was", "keeping with the both the political theme and the first time thing i could relate a little bit about my first time with the pride parade", "and this was about three years ago", "i got to pull my or i got to drive my big red jeep up church street", "it was a panic", "i had people waving screaming shouting", "i was just hopeful i wasn't running over anybody", "and behind me was a trailer full of my gay young friends bouncing spouts into rupaul", "and so i was also honored this year with my friend craig mitchell to be comarshal", "oh craig", "i asked him to change it to marshmallow but they didn't quite get the marshmallow but craig and i got to go up", "i'm surprised you got resistance on that", "craig and i got to go up church street together", "we were laughing and joking all the way up through", "and then i got beautiful roses from my friend meg", "and it was just a really wonderful day i had a blast", "were you in this year's pride parade i yeah they did it in battery park this year which was super fun", "i missed the parade part of it but i was there for the big party afterwards", "i had to come i had to leave work early and then go back to work afterwards", "oh my goodness", "but it was a lot of fun", "it was the whole park was packed", "now you and annie do a routine or have done a routine", "yeah", "and it the one i saw i happened to be down in our state's capitol", "but you've been all over the state doing this routine yeah", "yeah we took it", "so the show is called united we stand up and it's like a politically themed comedy shows", "so what we do is we bring a bunch of standup comedians in some from vermont some from out of state sort of a mix of people and just people who have sort of politically relevant material", "and then at the end of the show there's an interview with a local politician or political figure in general", "so we've had david zuckerman on this show", "he was our guest at the vermont comedy club city counselor max tracy from burlington the newest city councilor ali jang", "we had him right after he was elected", "and yeah so it's a lot of fun and annie and i love doing it", "annie is moving to", "i heard that", "so the series is on a hiatus for a while", "and you're moving as long as you mentioned that we'll just talk about it", "your taking off and going to the big apple for a brighter and bigger things to do", "the big apple yeah", "i a lot of vermont comedians have former vermont comedians are living there now", "so i'm excited to join my fellow expatriates", "you think you'll be able to find a political venue to bring new york politics to the forefront yeah i don't it has been kind of on my mind because i have no journalism skills", "so annie was like really important to the show because she knows about like journalistic ethics and all", "you know she's very talented interviewer", "so she kind of would like book all the political guests and she spearheaded that part", "and i would kind of book the comedians", "sure", "and manage that part of the show", "but i've been thinking a lot about ways that we could keep it going or annie's gonna be in chicago", "maybe i would go visit her or maybe she could come visit me", "annie i'm pitching this to you", "i hope you're watching", "it sounds like a road trip", "yeah", "in any case what would you like to do with today on the show what have you you got in mind oh i guess if we're talking about first first times", "yeah that's good", "i have a funny story about the first time i went to a pride parade", "the first time i ever went to a pride parade i was there for probably like a half an hour before i heard some like this poor like disenfranchised straight bro", "he was like walking by and he was like man well why don't we have a straight pride parade i just remember thinking like i don't know man but if i had to guess i would say there are probably just aren't enough straight parade planners out there", "i don't know who he thinks is like stopping him though", "like go nuts", "are you kidding me i don't know about you but i would love nothing more than to see that", "nothing would delight me more", "oh my i don't know what it's gonna look like", "i keep like imagining it's just gonna be like a bunch of really drunk people in the parking lot of like a home depot", "just like barbecuing and listening to like kid rock", "straight pride", "there you go", "we'll put it in the bin to check on where and see what we can do there", "that is just a joke of course", "of course it is", "yeah", "straight people will never take home depot away from lesbians", "i think we all know that", "no that is a great place to shop", "yeah", "i've been told", "yeah there's another local community and has a really funny joke", "i won't give it away in case you have a run but about how the hottest place to meet single lesbians in burlington is at pet food warehouse", "wow", "i'll have to make a note of that", "yeah right then keeping you private then", "but then i gotta get a pet", "yeah", "i don't think sues has a pet", "i think she just hangs out there", "she's just like trolling for a pussy at the pet food warehouse", "it can be done it can be done", "i think she has done it", "i hope sues is watching too", "yeah we'll have to get her on the show to refute or substantiate those claims", "sues would be a great guest", "i think she would too", "she just wound up her first year up in st alban's last night", "i think you guys did the show at the what's the venue that", "twigs", "twigs yeah", "yeah that's always a fun show", "lot of local entertainment up there", "and she's been doing that show now for a year and i've been to a couple of those shows and they're great", "they're always great", "yeah", "she's got a rapport with the audience and she can warm you up and get anybody laughing", "i'm just curious when you're doing a comedy routine are you able to discern the differences between a gay crowd like with your lol comedy series and a straight crowd and how do you change that up how do you do that different yeah well i think like it depends on maybe not if they're like straight or gay but just like where you are", "okay", "like i think the further away from the cities you got like they're a little progressive enclaves and stuff", "but like you go like you know there used to be shows we were just talking about out in morrisville moogs place", "yeah", "used to be shows at moogs place and like you go out there and people like they have no it's not that they don't like gay people but they just have no idea what grindr is or you know like they don't know about like i think they're just illinformed about gay sex", "so it was pretty shocking for that for this whole lot of info's", "yeah that might be a tough venue", "i will tell you that my friend christine showed her documentary denial at the library in montpelier this past week", "and it was predominantly gay crowd and they all got the jokes the innuendo all the overlays that were in there and all the things", "i was asking her at first", "where has that happened before she says spain", "i said what she says well they had subtitles", "and they laughed at everything that was", "that's so funny", "it was spot on so i said well that must mean that the written word is stronger than the spoken word but only in spanish", "i suppose so", "i was gonna take a few minutes to review what i do within the lgbtq alliance", "yes", "and i'm gonna kinda read what is our mission and purpose statement and the lgbtqia alliance of vermont comprised of representatives from a range of lgbtqia organizations and individuals from the broader vermont community", "our mission is to anticipate and collaboratively respond to proposed and enacted laws policies action and community level crisis that impact lgbtqia vermonters", "the alliance provides expert advice to elected officials political activists state indices communitybased and professional organizations and other interested parties representing and protecting the interests and rights of the lg of lgbtqia vermonters", "the group seeks to fairly represent the collective voice of the lgbtqia vermonters through advocacy community building education and representation", "now within the context of the alliance there's five organizations that are our cornerstone or original groupings", "and i don't know if you know them all", "can you guess i think green mountain crossroads is probably one of them", "they are", "outright vermont", "outright vermont is yeah", "the pride center", "yeah", "god i'm trying not to cheat and look at my sheet here", "they could provide answers to the quiz", "yeah i got three of them", "okay so", "can i cheat yeah you can cheat", "oh vermont cares", "oh those guys are great", "i thought they were part of the pride center", "no peter jacobson's executive director there", "and actually i'm gonna review some of the fundraisers he's got coming up", "there's an aids walk in the city hall park on october 1st at one thousand am", "i would go right to their website for information on that to register and by all means contribute to that", "that's important", "rainbow umbrella of central vermont actually put on the first pride solidarity march that coincided with the official pride date this past year and it was very successful", "we had people represented from all communities there", "cool", "and we had speakers afterwards", "that is anticipated to be again next year", "oh great", "the pride center just completed the pride celebration two weeks ago and i mentioned that greg and i that was fun", "were cogrand marshmallows were gonna adopt that cogrand marshmallows", "yeah i think you guys should push for that", "i think we should", "green mountain crossroads which is down in brattleboro vermont", "i was just down there a couple of days ago", "hb lozito is sponsoring again a very successful twoday seminar out in the country", "it's october 27th", "and again go to green mountain crossroads to register and find out more information", "i'm one of the presenters for that as well", "oh very cool", "yeah so and lastly we have outright vermont not leastly though", "dana kaplan new executive director there", "he is having a firetruck poll fundraiser on church street september 30th", "oh i think they've done this before", "haven't they they have done it before", "have you participated or watched it yeah i think the comedy club put together a team to be part of it last year", "and i was out of town i think but it looked i was really sad to miss it", "big fundraiser for our friends at outright", "and one of the things that you can do is you can go on their website you can look at their information there and there are interestingly one of the unique things that they've come up with for fundraising is that they've found individuals that will post their fundraiser on their website", "so if you're interested in doing that follow some of the guidelines there and post that and you too can earn funds for the firetruck poll or better yet sponsor a team be on a team just come out and have fun", "i guarantee the weather that day is gonna be beautiful and crisp and cool", "i promise it will be", "you promise yeah", "tom messner and i have been talking", "oh yeah", "so you know again these are the organizations that i represent from the state house", "and as nonprofits they're always working very hard to generate funds to keep their staff they're partially grant funded but contributions go a long a long long way", "a couple of the things that i also wanna mention are what we've identified as challenges that are currently being confronted by vermont's lgbtqia communities", "we're doing that through some interesting things that i've uncovered this summer", "one of the things that i'm working on is the changing your driver's licenses to add the letter x to it", "we've been working with folks at several different levels to see if we can make that happen", "and that", "i remember i think we chatted about that a little bit and it sounds like there's we're not gonna have to do that through the legislature", "yeah we're actually looking to do it administratively which is really a huge cost savings because you don't have to run it through the legislative process", "it is part of the dmvs upgrade to their systems", "so we're asking that we we're working to ask if we can get that inserted in there", "and that actually follows what canada's doing with their passports now", "oh i didn't even know that", "they're actually they're adding x to that", "new york is working on similar legislation", "it's already been adopted in oregon in california", "so states that are much larger than us including a whole country are working towards this", "and i think it'll be great for young folks who are coming up and have to put their first legal document in", "yeah", "and they don't have to lie and say well i'm not m and not f x works", "x will work for lots of folks", "yeah", "that is one of the things we also have coming up in the senate", "this session is h333", "this bill proposes to require that any single use toilet in any public building or place of public accommodations be identified as gender free", "i mean my gosh who wouldn't wanna have the opportunity to use one or the other when there's a line at one and you can go in the other", "yeah i can", "there's probably a joke there somewhere", "yeah i don't know i feel like i mean you're not gonna get in trouble for going in the other", "i've never gotten in trouble for using a women's room before", "and i use it all the time because they're always nicer", "and also they're like there's usually there's always some old man like cleaning the men's room", "i don't know", "i've run into that everywhere i go", "it happens", "i know there's a joke there", "i think you're right and i think they have both of the", "there's always some sort of like mess that's being cleaned up in the men's room", "so it always says like an out of order sign", "i'm hopeful that this will go right through", "it did get through the house i did testify there and i believe we'll have a good result with that", "i've been also getting out to meet folks which has been really interesting", "i've got a literal laundry list of folks that i've been able to have time with", "and you know just from a educational standpoint anybody who's listening to this anybody who's a citizen you don't even have to have been legally able to vote but these folks will talk to you", "they'll definitely spend some time with you and they wanna hear what your concerns are", "and i would really suggest that you look up your local representative and speak with them", "most recently i've been i've talked to phil scott tj donovan beca balant tristan toleno celine colburn brian chia sina who is also a really talented dj here in the area", "yes", "barbara rachelson deanna gonzalez jill kruinsky connor casey who's the executive director of the vermont democrats", "oh my goodness mark hughes had me on his radio program a couple of weeks ago", "how was that it was interesting", "he wanted me to come down and cohost with him at goddard college at seven hundred am", "and i said probably not", "not only the drive would be fun but just getting down there in one piece would be interesting", "yeah", "but we're gonna do that again", "cindy weed and dan connor up in my neck of the woods have been always open to conversations with me", "also spoken with senate leader pro temp tim ashe speaker of the house mitzi johnson", "and it's really been great to have the ear of the lieutenant governor as well", "like you said david zuckerman", "yes", "that came and sat down with you so", "yes", "that's pretty enjoyable", "taylor what are you doing over there sorry", "you're wrecking the place but we've all of these folks have been identified as folks that we can go and speak with", "and they're very open to conversation", "we're really lucky to have worked with this'll be just a little bit of prop for my coliaison keith goslant who has been around a long time was on the freedom to marry caucus for the men", "and he has been both my trainer my teacher my mentor and a friend", "and it's been a blessing to have somebody to bring me through this process", "like i said i always tell people i wished that i'd had pay more attention to civics in high school to know what's going on", "yeah yeah", "and that's kind of that", "so let's see where are we what have i left out what do we wanna cover oh my gosh i was kind of curious about what your experience has been like working with governor scott and his new administration", "well it's kind of interesting because we had early on identified that we'd like to get in and speak with the governor", "everybody knows he's got a twoyear term and he's about a third of the way through the two both the terms", "and we had the opportunity to sit down and speak with him last week", "it was really good we had about an hour of his time", "and he asked a lot of questions and keith goslant and myself were able to provide a lot of information and things that he was genuinely interested in", "and i feel good having a governor that will take the time to sit down and listen", "and folks within his office also are remarkable", "we had a great conversation afterwards with rachel feldman", "and we spent some time discussing some of the nuances of the conversation that we had with governor scott", "tj donovan very much the same way very open and asking questions", "and if you ever thought law enforcement wasn't on your side you need to spend some time with the man because as the enforcer of all of our laws he is definitely watching out for us", "i now have his personal phone number", "i don't know if he wants you to know that on tv but if you", "can we put it on the screen there no no", "i don't think that'd be appropriate", "but what i would like to say is that if anybody has a", "just gonna text every night like you up that's somebody else you're thinking", "one of the things that we did cover was how to report an incident", "and he advocates that if anybody in the community has incidents of bias any type of hate speech anything that maybe we're observing in other states and it filters into vermont if you let me know i will let them know", "and it may be part of a larger case study or they may already have information or complaints about the individual or group", "so nothing is too blunt", "this is public service you mean yeah they do have a chain between the state and the state's attorney general the fbi local law enforcement", "as much as they have bad press they also have some good press and they have good people that work there and tj is one of them", "so i'm really glad to have him on our side", "that's good", "he marched in the pride parade with us", "oh no way", "which was really cool really cool", "so we had him in several people from his office that were in there with us", "cool", "you know being able to talk to folks or call them up or send them an email really is one of the strengths that i think i have in the position that i'm doing because if i say can we get a meeting nobody's declined time with me", "yeah no one has for united we stand up the only people who have said no to the show are republicans", "been very hard to book a conservative", "which is too bad because annie and i are nice people but we've had yeah everybody has been that's the nice thing about living in a small state is that your public officials are all very accessible", "and we've had great luck booking people for the show", "and the thing is about vermont politicians almost every single politician we've interviewed has either had to leave early or get there late because they have some sort of animal that they're taking care of", "everybody david is a farmer", "yes yeah", "david i think if i'm remembering correctly he could only do annie and my show if his horse didn't give birth that day which is a weird booking", "that's a show stopper", "i had to book around that", "speaking of republicans", "i have not had the opportunity yet to reach out to republicans", "but i will tell you that the", "well governor scott", "well governor scott is the top republican but you know with that said he should be accessible to everybody and i think that all the electorate should", "my own county of franklin i have the senate minority leader dustin degree", "and he's on my list actually in the next couple of weeks to reach out", "so i anticipate reaching across the aisle so to speak", "well that's good", "and i don't identify as either democrat or republican", "and i know that many people have very strong feelings within the lgbtq community but keep an open mind and i will when we sit down", "yeah", "yeah i think it's certainly important to just talk to people as individuals", "but i wonder how governor scott it seems like he was interested in what you were saying and was responsive to the issues you were bringing up", "i wonder how he feels about his party's hard line on those same issues", "if you've noticed any of the press that's come out of the governor's office lately he has denounced the rescission of daca", "he has also come out with ten other governors for the current health care program not to repeal and replace that the current federal republicans wanna do", "he understands the people of vermont", "and while the nuances of taxes and teachers and things might've gotten into a different category with some folks i think sincerely he thinks about our community and really does", "i know that republicans will be republicans and democrats will be democrats", "but with that said i think it's a pretty good state for some partisan work and passing of the first part through h333 through the house had very little objection as well as some of the other things that we're doing", "so i'm looking forward to working with everybody and the governor", "and the legislature is where we're headed", "yes", "you've got any more comedy for us cause i'm really dying to hear some jokes", "oh yes should we end on a joke well we're good yeah", "well i don't know if are you on any dating apps brenda did i admit to none that you admit to", "yeah i'd have to say one or two", "one or two", "do you mind if i ask which ones if i could remember them that's how often that i go in there", "okay cupid is a common one a lot of people on", "okay cupid is one of the ones", "and that seems fairly lgbtq friendly so", "oh really i haven't tried it", "well mostly l so that's mostly", "mostly yeah that's why", "it could be it could be", "there's not much for me there", "yeah i don't know", "i am on grindr and tinder look me up", "self promotion", "and i okay grindr", "and yeah being on grindr is fun but it also makes me like terrified of getting murdered", "tell me about that", "you're really in the green mountain state you might feel like you're getting murdered", "it makes me nervous about getting murdered because if you get murdered you just lose any sense of privacy you once had", "they just the cops go through all your stuff", "i just feel like i don't need that kind of hassle in my death you know", "what do they go through what are they well i would they if i got murdered they would have to go through my grindr account", "and that is absolutely my worst nightmare", "is that on your pc or cell phone it's on my phone", "oh boy", "which is yeah", "that's pretty damning", "these poor cops are not even gonna know what this guy's face looks like", "they're just gonna have to work backwards like a picture of his leg headless torso", "there's no registry for that headless torso pictures no it's just going to i'm so afraid", "it's gonna be all over the evening news like splashed across like have you seen this faceless torso contact the burlington pd", "oh my goodness", "and beware that he could have shaved by now", "i know", "my worst nightmare", "don't know if everybody will get that but i know all of the folks who are gay will probably yeah", "yes", "you don't have to be gay to be on grindr", "i think that's", "you can use it", "you can use it to find people gay people in your area", "you could also use it to avoid gay people in your area how you use it as your business", "okay i'm gonna start to wrap up a little bit", "i got the thirty minute notice", "so better than stretch this into forty five minutes", "i wanna let you know that my coliaison on keith goslant and myself are planning a road trip actually to four different locations this fall", "we wanna talk to the lgbtqia community without any filters", "we need to know what's going on in there", "and we wanna be able to have a very firm commitment to you guys as well as my organization that we're representing you not ourselves and not our own ideas so we need to hear from you", "and we'll announce that pretty broadly", "i am gonna take a moment to introduce my next guest taylor radke", "she's a young queer comedian and a friend", "and also i read here this can't be right", "you're recovering from a near fatal accident plane crash something like that", "okay were you're trying to fly or was it oh it was a skateboard", "oh i must've misread that", "cool", "yeah and you can find her at zero gravity pouring your favorite so hopefully soon", "and i wanna also give a shout out to zero gravity for their great contribution during the pride celebration", "they did a promotion with beer which is okay with me and donated back to the pride center", "and i wanna really thank kendall for being here with us today in my show debut and being the beautiful cohost that you are", "well thanks for having me brenda", "i know you're gonna be successful going down to new york city", "and we'll see you again when you come up to vermont", "you certainly will be invited", "i'm sure anywhere everywhere", "i hope so", "okay", "and this is brenda churchill for the comedy of state", "some news and some queer comics and hopefully a fresh perspective on for you guys", "and we'll see you soon", "i wanna thank you very much for watching", "have a great evening or day or night", "yeah"], "name": ["The_Comedy_of_State_Everyone_Has_A_First_Time/The_Comedy_of_State_Everyone_Has_A_First_Time/The_Comedy_of_State_Everyone_Has_A_First_Time_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "The_Comedy_of_State_Everyone_Has_A_First_Time/The_Comedy_of_State_Everyone_Has_A_First_Time/The_Comedy_of_State_Everyone_Has_A_First_Time_DOT_flac_00001.flac", 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on tuesday with all the river and rough issues", "put on the ceilings for right now", "street in there", "can you go over north underhill road north underhill road", "lower structure of the head wall the other day is", "that's the one thing that's outstanding as it being back to correct correct", "and then we got quite a crater on the north end", "a lot of utilities also", "a lot of utilities also", "yup", "so what direction you've been heading in the last few days since you know since sunday i know you got you just fill them back filling holes and using the stuff from the pit and doing that", "what are you doing okay", "so sunday is kind of the last time you really went at it filling holes okay", "and you been hauling in stone from anywhere like that how much do you expect road and you got beige roads got quite a chunk out of it", "lots on poker hill down drone will have to be revealing all the way up through bill cook parks county jonah hill bridge noel", "rapper road", "we got the north end of our tunnel hover road", "now just on a triage thing i was walking back north under hill road", "it's going to be is our big problem right now correct can we fill in that hole on that structure is that structure stable enough to put a temporary road there so we could fill it in we could do a quick tar patch job and we could", "no tar patch", "we'd have to", "we need a structural engineer in the short term correct correct", "i don't know if we need a motion but i agree", "we need a structural engineer and we should hire one of the big guys", "either way we look at for a filling", "yes i agree a hundred percent", "do you have any names did you call around today at all would you like me to do it okay", "is that the last question i mean is that something that would be in the category b so it's just all part of the emergency or is it something that would be in the", "define category b", "good question", "from my understanding it's for emergency purposes", "right so would you consider this an emergency purpose right yeah", "so everything after that emergency services and everything going forward then would have to be part of the individual roads fema estimated cost you per state for their approval", "right", "does anyone have an idea what the hourly rate for a structural engineer is just for a bunch of purposes no and i imagined for something like that it'd probably be if you're gonna put it in a fema project you they must have they have seem to have lists for everything", "so they might have a list of what they would accept", "but i don't think we can take more", "we just need someone to look at it and say yeah it's passable yeah it's not passable", "you know let's just table that one for a second", "i mean it's something we definitely have to deal with but like nate says people who get out both ways we're not holding anybody up", "so let's that's definitely a factor for sure", "mona why do you take a whack at it for a little bit oh well", "i", "i guess i'm always coming from the financial part of it you know and so you know with this category b part of it which is all the emergency stuff which is just one fema project if we'd get the fema approval you know i don't know what that is yet", "cause i haven't seen any of the invoices", "so did you like", "did you like add those up or anything or do you know where the invoices are all the stuff that happened previously so far so i don't know", "i guess that might be like fifty or sixty thousand maybe or whatever like you said we don't have all the invoices", "but we have forty four thousand in our contingency rainy day reserve fund that we can just that's gonna take care of i think of a huge part of that", "dwayne has been working on gathering all those pictures and you know we went over with them all the how the project works and stuff to get everything set up for fema", "he interviewed and worked with the guys today with nate's help on finding out where they were and what they did so we can have some good documentation of what happened during those four days and stuff", "we go through the stuff contractor and time out", "pretty much around the law for the contractor wherever those holes are", "okay so then dwayne's on all that", "dwayne's on that and he's working with sherry and nate and i are kind of teaming up on it and then hopefully all those invoices will come in hopefully soon and nate of course will approve and make sure that we don't get charged for maybe a private road and not a public road or whatever", "and then we just kind of gather information the way we did last time", "and i have talked to our banker and they said shelley clinton from merchant said that you know it's good", "we could do this next select board meeting", "it's good just to get the paperwork set up for a line of credit choose a number either at we're already approved is to have our financials from the end of june just choose a number that will get us through the emergency part of it", "you don't have to pick the two million number just say you know a couple hundred thousand whatever", "and then as things happen you've already got it established to draw", "so it's set up and ready to go", "and then as things for a month if you get to fema or if you don't and you get more good estimates of what it's going to cost then we can always increase the amount", "what's the line of credit that's available now to authorize and", "right well we'll have to set it out", "but i had told her we were looking at a couple of million and she didn't seem too bad and i but", "but at the end we can do it for a year because you have traveled approver for longterm but you can do this this line of credit for a year if you're still working on it and you still haven't finished it off you can renew for another year", "at some point you can either convert it to a longterm note that you're gonna pay off or you can talk to the bond bank people too", "and they said we could also go to the voters see if they want to do a bond if it's too much convert it to a bond", "so i think i think my", "and then the sheet that i laid out there kind of a thing to", "with the cash", "i took our current cash of eight hundred and eighty thousand", "and you know minus what it's gonna take us to get to the end of the year minus what it's gonna take us to get to the august fifteen the next tax date", "and so you have like about four hundred thousand", "so i think between the two of your fine between that could mean the loan from the bank and this i think you're fine", "you know it's you don't want to take on debt as much as possible but it's there if you need it you know", "and the lower part of that the fund balances you know we have with gasby we have to have a fund balance policy", "and we're saying we have to keep fifteen in there", "if we did that we couldn't spend very much money but the select board can in emergency reduce that that we say we're keeping so", "so i think that you know the cash is there either from us or from our partners at the bank", "and so you wouldn't have to worry about that", "the main thing is just making sure we have you know like nate said getting the information back from fema making sure that everything is processed accurately so that we get our money with paperwork and yeah", "so", "and yeah i guess that's about all i have to say", "just so everybody can feel somewhat reassured that", "that you're not going to be not being able to do this stuff", "i did have them on this", "i guess this was from brad of the people who were out there", "and i checked there's maybe four people i don't know and getting the contact information from them", "but everybody else is either in our vendor file and get paid immediately", "or two people have some paperwork they got to get back to me but they're you know it's gonna be fine", "so i don't think anybody is gonna be held up not getting paid unless there's somebody that's not on the list that we don't know about", "so we'll take care of everybody that helped us and the bank will take care of us and all that", "so that's about it", "oh fema with a clash and papers structured normally count all any or all material whatever it takes your basic material in any class for that", "no material no nothing", "if the structure was gone totally in any of the projects they would pay for it", "but majority of the structure stayed everything else like on pedro that steam mower that was the only thing left", "probably a gap there two hundred and four", "was still there", "and now they're the ones that keep reoccurring", "they stated we have documentation from prior years", "was rejoined they said if we can get that information and they can show that color or make a bridge", "so it stops reoccurring", "and we have a lot of phone calls", "you know what i mean all we did with bella road over what was there to get people out", "or if people in plastic and so we pull them plastics you're gonna damage", "so the town was liable for buying new collars", "if the collar's gone they would pay for it", "but if it's preexisting in there they won't give me any money", "mean that they'll pay you to replace the similar one", "where they couple together we take it apart and it breaks apart", "and we dragged that one back in the collar's gone", "yeah", "so that one was just a temporary effect", "so you're going to have to get a grade of color in the area the same way the collar has gone", "we just put a quick cratchet strap on it hold it back in the hole and popped it to it", "what do you need from us in short term can we go around the room emergency management asked me to try to collect some more information on private individual damages", "which i got off to them today", "and the purpose of that it's very unlikely that there'll be any kind of federal funding on a personal level but it also helps assist in the picture of the public part too as far as damages that happened here", "so they were they asked me to get as much information as i could on that", "so i got a list of places that had damage", "i didn't get ahold of everybody as to exactly what the damages were", "and i've got just some rough estimates here in there not on everything but they were happy just to get the list", "so keep in touch with them on that", "i wanted to just kind of check with nate here too on updating the roads hotline", "right now i just have it sounds like it's going to remain that way", "that north underhill station road is still remaining close to through traffic and still drive with extreme caution", "the question is on the private roads like beaver brook and kelly road those private roads fire department can't", "but again from fema's estimate there's about one hundred and fifty thousand damage on killer from the front of the sector from the tail", "and beaver brook i have not been over there", "i heard that fire department today they said that they wouldn't put up big truck up there", "no yeah they contacted and they said that they couldn't get in there", "did anybody establish that when something happens to private property or private road or a private driveway whose responsibility it is in the emergency situation to get it fixed", "the one we heard on friday we were to get everybody out whether it was on private property or not", "we did assist what we could reach it off the down road some of these houses", "you know but then on saturday she did not touch in front of the door right away", "who is that information from the girl", "rachel", "i think she lost our schedule by hiring up there on saturday", "okay the theme of language restoration of access it says in cases where homes are inaccessible as a result of the damage work to establish emergency access maybe eligible under the pa public act", "if an eligible applicant has legal authority to perform the work and provide that the emergency access economically eliminates the need for temporary housing", "bottom line is the town's cost of reestablishing emergency access to residents should be pa eligible", "and it says it's part of the category b of the pa public assistance", "but only if they can't get there", "well that's why we need that letter from the fire department saying they can't get to the deep holes", "and then oh our pa not ia", "so that means", "oh we have to wait for fema to give us the go ahead on the b stuff right this would be part of b they say category b of public assistance", "that's kind of like you know the last time just as an example there was someone who was stranded on the other side of big gold because they washed out", "you know brad went out and rented like a flatbed", "they kind of somehow or another person over you know and we got to get reimbursed under category b with that although that was their private property it was you know kind of like rescuing them", "so it's almost kind of like that right there's an emergency and you can't get in or out to their property", "you can do it and include it in this emergency category", "bpa sounds like it but you know", "but i don't know if we have anybody like that", "there's people that can't get to their places", "they can get there by car", "you just can't get service people in there", "same thing", "is there any way to from that information that you have there with someone that just to take it to the next level because that's definitely some feedback we're getting in there", "right", "we really need to nail that down and if that's true we're supposed to help these people in category d right now we need to get on that and finish that part of where we're at", "but we need a confirmation from the system", "we would like them to come out and take another look at those roads", "i mean you have to know you know if we are responsible we should be out there working on it", "it's a slippery slope", "they couldn't get in or out there much because traffic", "i want to do what you know fema tells us to do", "that's what we're going to have to do", "well on friday they know we had to help people because otherwise", "but that was dlt that's not fema either", "so we're talking about two different groups here and two different", "one's gotta have authority over the other", "you got to find out who the higher up is over there", "we can do that tomorrow", "do you guys all feel like there's a good game plan and good leadership and flow of information here i mean it is dwayne you know he", "we've really just started you know", "but i think you know for me", "i understand there was this wonderful map that fema rachel or whatever", "it would be really nice to have a map of the roads", "even if you labeled them carrie knows all the roads", "and she's great with maps too", "if you'd be labeled them like this is a and then", "we could cause when he just talks about this stuff we might not really getting it into the bucket we need to get it into", "so if we could just kind of like label them and maybe even give them our own project numbers initially so that as we start to do stuff", "we don't know where it is", "we think she took it back with her but maybe carrie you know", "and then when nate talks about something or whatever for me i would feel more like", "so it seems like we're in somewhat of a pause mode here waiting on fema information before", "and you guys go ahead and take that next step on fixing things is that what i'm assuming here", "momentarily put in there friday was put in character", "we drew it out of here a couple of years ago when packing stuff", "but the stuff we used on sunday was a little more trashy", "so that's going to be taken back out again", "we get some good veins but then monday sunday there were running you know i didn't see any buckets of you know trash and stuff", "you know that's not back as well", "temporary", "so this is where's dwayne fit on this on what he's doing in this whole thing for us", "i mean is he just doing odds and ends do you have him in charge of paperwork with what would we have in mind equipment hours who went where how running around such and such roll", "so you should have a file on every single role as it comes in", "records and then pass it on every single day do something on a monday come thursday", "you're going to forget what you did on monday where you went", "if you were over there for two hours over here for an hour", "maybe we should put a notebook in a truck", "would that be i think and you know what i was talking to he's taking he's sitting at the computer downstairs that's free", "and so he i gave him all this all the fema files from the last year how they were structured with the pictures and the spreadsheet and the copies of the invoices", "and i showed him the paper files and everything", "he's got a great handle on it", "he has some great ideas he's you know vast and", "cause when the guys thought at the time may only put seven hours flood i've asked him to work with them to get those details of where they work", "so he's keeping track of that", "you know it was you know if you get an invoice from jim madell and it's been on he's worked on seven projects you know it's just scan it into every single project", "and he's just you know he's got some great ideas actually for road maintenance going forward", "and then it's going to use last year's files too to see if this is second occurrence third occurrence on some of those things", "so we can get maybe better replacement in that", "and i guess my only concern is you know i don't want to keep him from something else that nate and i want to coordinate", "cause i don't want him to think that i'm hogging him completely and i'm not really doing it he is but you know just that i don't know how many hours he's allowed to spend it on it probably", "but i think the one thing we're missing is i think we should only have we should have like a fema contact that it seems to be sometimes it's going to you and sometimes it's going to you and stuff", "and maybe somehow or another that really", "haven't gotten anything", "we haven't gotten anything", "so it's almost just with you and go back anyway because there were lots of emails last year", "so i don't you know", "so i brought up about structure", "i'd just love to see you guys when you guys are all working well on the ground you're doing your thing you're doing there", "but if there's a lead person in the office here that talking to that fema person or again you know your visits you know your business they don't need to manage you guys but ahead of the snake and maybe that is dwayne", "i don't see why it's not yeah the only thing is to you know the email", "you know cause a lot of times they send a lot of stuff by email so but", "we can set them up with an email", "and then do we have an extra box yeah so we can set them up with an email and he just sits down there and stuff and then he'll know when it has to go to the back way", "yeah so let's have dwayne at the head of that beast", "sounds good", "no i'm just wondering what he needs in the short term between now and then our next meeting", "you have a meeting next week", "if you need any what resources do you need private contractor and try to work on it and we'll start her on", "keep with ramona because we want to stay within the budget", "we don't want to tilt keep on money or if we get connects from fema", "break right now is what you're saying i'm not saying that you can't spend money", "we're saying that you can serve", "your proudly for the weekend your family around sixty", "we pretty much figured that now that", "but i hear what you're saying i mean i do", "i agree with everything you hear your brakes are on until we get more word from fema", "and learn about what direction we're going here", "so that makes sense", "but why not get estimates those don't hurt us", "who usually makes those calls in getting estimates out of this group a lot of people do it", "you can get different ones", "do we need three estimates for everything we looked at here you know we have the first thing policy but in emergencies we don't really look at it", "you don't have to", "we're past the emergency here", "so we purchasing policy", "yes but you don't have to go to a form of bidding process", "if it's going to if theses particular project's going to be under fifteen thousand", "then you're supposed to get estimates from other people", "they can be informal", "it doesn't have to be an rfp but you should try to get two or three estimates if you don't have those that many suppliers in your local areas it's okay", "get one with this whole fifteen under fifteen thousand you don't you should try and get two or three", "if you don't have two or three people", "if you you have like a gravel you know there's like two places you call but you always go to one place", "but i mean it's kind of like you already do that nate", "i think you already do that in all this stuff you do", "you call around", "you know reach out where everybody pretty comparable", "it's just whoever again you know we're in the steaming", "you're going to get someone to go along with", "exactly exactly right", "which means there's only that means there's only one person who can do it", "you can't find a competitor to get another bedroom because he had a guy who can't long pole", "and i was like three tremors who doesn't have the tallest thing", "so you can do that it'd just be good to continually", "well yeah when you get the estimates and those estimates can also flow through to like the files that dwayne's doing because we want", "wherever you can get two or three estimates when it makes sense it's a job that there's three guys to go to i understand if it's no one else can do it then that's how it falls", "but whenever you can", "how does i guess how does this interfere with i suppose greatly your normal step that you were going to be doing this spring in size that you know like all those problems you did did you did any of those culverts that were just replaced get washed you know you're a couple of weeks out", "it'd probably be one hundred and fifty thousand to two hundred thousand dollars", "and then the dirt that goes over the top of it or the stone", "we need the stone okay", "okay", "so all those culverts are parts of the road that femas looked at", "so they're going to be part of the next project", "i just have to look in my responsibilities for her to see stuff", "yeah but mostly my stuff has to due with structural manage not structure in terms of necessarily board structures but houses and those things", "got anything to add to this being who you are and what you do what i missed the whole thing", "just say my hats off to you guys for the work you did", "when i got home that day by my driveway that was according to the pictures we got from people", "so you guys did a great job", "if there was some structure there", "what would it look like in your book if it was a new structure yeah", "it could be a large pipe or it could be a concrete box", "could be a bridge", "i've seen that would get over top twice now about ten years", "before it happened and then two thousand and thirteen", "no is that twenty years yeah twenty years sorry", "where are you going to get that information first found flooded every couple minutes and five minutes", "might just be in invoices and", "you don't have like", "what about you know like the computer program that says when callers were changed up it more it doesn't say the year because otherwise we just have the last few months", "so you wouldn't have a record of changing the caller", "caller have a statement", "okay gotcha", "how long you think the requirements for documentation is it jerry's testimony from one thousand nine hundred and eighty two that you remember something or is it something more than that i don't know", "i mean i wonder what", "they had no documentation but it was all the neighbors stepping forward to say it's just gone out such and such a year", "and they listed it and got bumped out by verbal stuff from the neighbors", "i just wonder if research on dwayne's part or someone's department could make enough of what you were working on", "where would you start your research at that's my question", "you have a lot of the historical knowledge yourself you almost know all the different ones have been handed over the last eleven years so", "and you talk to the people like you when you talk to the neighbors and people have been around a while and you get them to put it in writing is what i think would help", "i remember", "i don't know the year and i could look it up because the town got an easement from us to do work at the end of that culver on that property", "so that would be a date when that present culver was installed", "i won't say the wrong date but i can only remember two times when the road washed out once was about ten years ago", "i think", "yeah that sounds right", "if no one has anything to add we're going to just take a quick recess till six till greg gets here to continue with our whole business", "so if there's nothing else to be said this storm debriefing on let's just take a twenty minute break here", "go ahead", "i just wanted to clarify what i thought i had heard", "it sounds like we conceivably you would have some coverage under this plan b", "that's what we're trying to figure out", "so we don't know how to proceed", "we need to be very careful that if you know if we don't start working on people's private roads and start some awful chain of events all over town fixing up private roads if we're not supposed to", "so we really need word from fema whoever up top saying this is how it's supposed to be done", "and we don't have that word yet", "there's no conversation with you", "it's probably unclear when you might even get that clarity", "and we're talking just a couple of days maybe", "yeah i would assume", "i'm only assuming", "all we know is they been around did a tour yesterday and then they went off to their office and we haven't seen or heard from since then", "so", "keep all your invoices take a million pictures get more quotes to get the road back to one hundred", "all that documentation will matter", "so we're thinking we should do nothing until we hear back from you at this point", "but you should probably try to get a quote for the whole road just a quote and to get it back to where it was", "now was that ever b seventy one standard do you know what that is you probably don't know", "what's that b seventy one is rad we're looking at b seventy six", "b seventy six was that ever b seventy six seventy six standard i believe so", "iverson built it to the town standards because he thought the town was going to take it over", "what year was that road built seventy eight ish", "yeah seventy eight", "so we understand we understand it's not the wait", "i'm trying to get the answer as quick as we can", "and can you make sure you done has got both your contact information i think", "so as soon as we get word we'll let you know", "anything else well i don't know if this is the right kind but one comment on if this happened again it seems like for people on both public and private roads somebody from the town or the fire department i don't know whose job is emergency services would physically go up each row even if they had to walk it and maybe contact people in each home and tell them that they should evacuate", "or if they're it wasn't possible to evacuate anymore and they should put on their back what they needed", "so people were informed because most of this happened during the night and we had no idea what was going on by the time we woke up our road was gone", "but they didn't do it on my road", "there's only thirty members", "yeah that's fine", "your point being is you wish that there was more kind of emergency outreach more heads up to someone like you in the middle of the night", "yeah", "i don't honestly don't know how to accomplish that but i hear what you're saying", "that's a good idea but i don't know how we'd accomplish that", "i'm sorry compare yeah", "it's interesting point", "all right anything else okay let's just take a quick recess for twenty minutes here we'll reconvene at six", "okay go ahead", "okay we're going to call this thursday may 30th select board meeting the order at six hundred pm", "this is a continuation of last thursday's meeting", "south was not available to be here last thursday for the entire meeting", "so we're going to take up this business here", "and first on the agenda is public comment", "is anyone here public comment okay we're gonna move right along then to discussing and enforcing court order thirteen one eleven", "so i just like to kind of go over what this is all about", "we have a superior court judgment order against robert blaze for a nonpermitted structure", "he is", "he has been ordered to reimburse the town the sum of four thousand and eighty and fifty four cents", "that reimbursement includes attorney's fees zoning administrator time along with some other things", "so he had until may 1st to remove the structure", "so he has not complied", "the town has the right to go in and remove the structure", "and if we remove the structure we need a new court order to recover the demo cost", "so we would need to go back to court again to recover our costs", "these this order and this violation do run with the property", "so the next order this property sold at tax sale last year", "do we know for the sum of how much it's about that though", "it is okay", "so we have tax sale", "and basically that means that mr blaze needs to come up with the twenty five thousand plus twelve interest in order to get his land back", "otherwise as of january 24th two thousand and fourteen the property will be the person who bid on it tax sale which i believe is his lamelle or lamelle lumber", "so i'd like to know was this judgment order recorded in the land records that's getting us a copy to recording land records and at such time as we receive it it will be", "okay i want to keep on that", "i want to make sure this", "if it is if it hasn't already been recorded", "yeah i want to make sure it's recorded", "and then did mr blaze receive a certified copy of this judgment order and he we have receipt of that", "well it wasn't sent by us", "okay it was be the", "it was either by the attorney or the court", "okay", "so anybody have any comments and", "well i'd like to actually just i don't know if carrie has anything to just add as an overview and then we can hear from other folks do you have anything to say carrie just the point of clarification that the order does allow the town to hire a contractor to go in and remove all structures on the property", "not just the one that we know about", "okay but there's not really as far as other structures", "all structures all tents those things apply", "yes really okay", "oh yeah structures and temporary living shelters located on the defendant's property at one hundred and ninety bear town road", "but again we do understand that you know in order to do that we'd need to find a contractor that would do that sort of work", "we would need to hire sheriffs to escort him", "we would need to give mr blaze proper notice that we're going to be entering his property to do this", "so we would incur quite a cost", "i'm not sure how much we could get estimates but we would incur quite a cost", "and as i said we would have to go get another court order in order to tack those costs onto this first judgment order", "so", "i believe that the cost reimbursement is part of that judgment", "no it's not no it's not", "it says it right in here and i clarified that with chat", "so that's above and beyond", "these are because this order only speaks to the four thousand and not to the cost of the removal", "so anybody else", "so the additional costs would that also go with the property i believe it would", "but yes i believe it would", "i tried to clarify that today and i'm not a hundred percent sure but i believe it would", "although if you think about it in a common sense way someone buys something at tax sale i mean they realize i'm not sure if he if mr lamelle knew that this judgment order was in existence when he bought at tax sale", "i just wonder it just seems something seems not quite right with that", "you know you'd go ahead and buy a property at tax sale", "and all of a sudden we come in and say oh by the way here's another ten thousand in fees to clear up the violations on this property", "so and as i said before i'm not going to send our road crew in to do this work", "it just wouldn't ask them ever ask them to do this", "it's not what they're here for", "so", "you know just as a discussion i would", "it sure seems likely that lamelle will wind up with the property i can't say that for sure", "but if he does you'll be dealing with a much more reasonable person that will want to work with you and get everything cleaned up i mean so that's kinda what we have before us is what we have to decide", "do we move forward and incur costs you know given the certain circumstances that's just happened is it fair to incur i don't know how much more costs to do this work and then have to wait at least until january 24th to recover the money", "so that's", "i'd like to hear i'd like to make comment i'd like to hear from other people first", "sure", "chris go ahead", "well just based on you saw the turnout of the people that were here at the other class few morning got postponed and we all feel the same way that robbie's been able to basically flower a loss since he's been there", "and what kind of incentive is there for him to stop breaking the law if we don't enforce these judgments it's i mean he's been living there when he says he's not and he's put up structures which don't belong there", "i mean why is he about to break the law and not have to you know where's the enforcement then and i think that that's a disincentive for people to follow the rules that the town sets out", "if we allow someone to continually proceed with you know with this behavior and it's you know mad maybe for the people who live on that road to know what that land was pristine and beautiful before", "and it's been turned into a garbage dump with illegal structures signs that are very threatening and warning that don't even belong there", "that haven't been removed from a right of way that i have access to because we bought land up there still things that haven't been taken care of and he's turned it into a complete dump", "and if we don't enforce the laws that we set up then what's to stop the next person", "we bought the land up there because we didn't want that to happen again", "so where's the incentive for people to follow the law or you know to know that there's going to be a penalty or consequence if we just let him get away with this and it's been going on for years now", "a quick question is anyone living up there now i you know to be honest i can't say for certain but i know that people have been back and forth even when he said they weren't living there", "i know that karen mcknight saw that structure that is on the court order and there were lights on and people have been going up there", "so and it's been you know it's a fear for us with our kids to have people going back and forth there that you know aren't what we would consider neighborly people", "chris what makes you think though with the structure gone that any behavior's going to change well i just think that it will be if it's there's no place to really stay or accommodate he's had the camper up there", "he's had other stuff up there", "there's it's like starting to clean up processes instead of eventually anything in my mind", "okay but if let's say we theoretically we go in there and we tear everything down and take down the traps and everything else", "he's proven himself to be a person that will live in very very rough conditions", "and you also have to look at this from you're poking a bee's nest here because you go down and you tear all those things down", "there's no reason why he's actually not allowed to go throw up a tent and camp for the rest of the summer out there", "you're i just want you to understand i truly do not feel from what i understand in this situation that removing anything on that property will make him go away until he no longer owns the property", "is he allowed to live there he's allowed to be on his land for some periods of time", "and i don't know how we never enforce him", "as you've seen we can enforce maybe tearing down a structure but to keep someone from being on their property and camping on let's say weekends i don't see how we enforce that at all", "so you still have the problem that you have no matter what we do there", "i truly do not think in fact it may encourage more behavior that you don't like by exacerbating the situation", "that's another concern", "not that we should live in fear because of that", "but i agree with seth i think you know we do this we follow this judgment order", "we do we clean the property up", "he has every right to go in there and seasonally camp and you're not going to stop that", "and we have no part of your you know your dispute with the right of way", "and that's not nothing that we have anything to do with you know the signs and so forth", "that road was discontinued", "it's no longer a town issue the right of way", "so i just let you know that part", "but i kind of have to agree with seth", "and i know it's", "i dunno it's a difficult situation", "i don't think you're going to find many people that would make it to this stage of a violation", "i think most any reasonable sane person would go to a superior you know would go would show up in environmental court and respect the judges order", "that's true", "i mean i agree with you", "i don't disagree with what you're saying but then where is the consequences for illegally", "right well we've been down this road before with a sipri parcel if i'm correct", "sipri removed the structure in compliance", "in compliance that's right", "yeah so there we had someone illegal structure", "we went through the motions they respected the", "i don't know if it", "it was the rb", "it was the rb", "so they respected the rbs decision and removed the structure", "chris i totally hear you", "and where i'm conflicted on it is why do we have rules at all if we're not going to enforce them", "and that i completely understand", "and i think that's a really valid point", "so i'm not taking that away from you for a second", "i just think all i'm saying is if we enforce this rule i don't see any behavior changing until he loses that property next january but that's no reason maybe not to enforce rules", "maybe those are two separate things", "i mean that's", "otherwise why do you have it on the books and then what's to stop other people from feeling other properties and getting", "so why would we be respectful and that's what we're asking as taxpayers", "that's one of the reasons why we have government isn't that yup yup", "question", "i know nothing of this situation whatsoever", "what is this really well it was a supposedly a sugar house", "it's a shed type structure like with a loft in it", "twelve by twelve maybe with a loft you know rough cut lumber six by six posts", "would it be possible to with the sheriffs escort", "yeah we still have to clean up the mask though", "the fact that you're asking a neighbor to go into another neighbor's property and burn their property down", "you know it's very emotional", "these are you know property rights", "a lot of people know this guy too", "and probably guys on the fire department probably know this guy", "he's a local guy", "so i said there's definitely it's a loaded you know and that's again why we don't want to ask the crew or someone like that be involved", "this also could be dangerous", "you know whoever if we did hire someone for this there definitely needs to be sheriffs involved", "and who knows what comes of it from there", "it is not a normal deconstruction process i'd say from what we know of the property", "and it's very possible", "you may not find anyone that would want to do this because you we would have it would be wrong not to reveal the whole history of what they're getting into before they go there", "so you know but again all speculation until we", "i mean just the fact that we're having this discussion about potential exacerbation and you know even say repercussion that was just that's not the way a citizen is supposed to behave in a town that's governed by rules and regulations", "and we like you said we should have been in fear but at the same time you're saying let's not disturb the hornet's nest", "so that's kind of a paradoxical", "i know but this when you throw this tax sale thing into the mix and you think about you know here we are it's you know one june six months", "and we're going to be possibly in a whole different situation but possibly not", "maybe come up with the money and be back there again", "but it's just something to weigh into the", "there's risks to the town to go ahead and enforce this as you can see right there's a financial risk there's other risks", "and the thought passes through all our mind is if this is someone else owning it it was totally reasonable in january", "i know it stinks for you guys up there but there's only six months left or so or you know of decent weather that you're putting up with this situation", "now i'd be eating my words if he's there in the spring and rebought his property", "and now we're having the same meeting again", "exactly and that's the thing", "if on the if he doesn't repurchase and if it does end up i think lamelle knows what he's getting into the situation to be honest", "so that i don't think there's a financial risk to the town for extending that money", "if it's going be picked up by the i mean i'm thinking he knows what he was getting into because people have spoken to him", "but if not then rodney can't have his land back if that additional money is tack on for the removal of structures that are going to end up having to be removed anyway at some point", "that's right but it wouldn't be on our dime", "it would be on the mel's dime", "not that it's about the money", "but again we're just in a different situation here than last week", "you know we're going to be putting a lot of things off here that we wanted to do and there's big considerations", "so i guess what i could tell you is i think i don't know how you guys feel but we could", "we'll go to the next step try to find someone that would be interested in this type of work", "get an estimate", "yeah i think that would be a reasonable", "so you know at least so we're moving forward in a direction", "does that sound reasonable okay", "we're going to have to get course", "we're going to have to i don't know", "we'll have to take advice from our attorney but then again there goes the time clock with the attorney but did we notify him again that we're coming in anybody that you know i guess we have photographs maybe that's good enough for the contractor to give a price", "you know to give them some kind of an idea", "then we'll get up get a cost from the chimney county sheriff's department", "and then we can", "if we can do that between like i said we've got lots of things going on but if we can try to do that between now and next thursday we'll try", "if not it'll be the following", "i would think that we look for rfps and then we come back in to july", "you give a month to go over all this to come up with an idea of what the", "we got sheriffs we got contractor we got an rfp to write", "so there's we've got a lot on our plate in the next week", "so i'd say that we revisit this in july one month from now", "yeah that's just another month goes by", "i would just assume if we get", "well we'd have contractor prices hopefully we would have contractor prices", "hopefully we would have shared price", "yeah", "information we'd have information", "i mean it would be worth just making a few phone calls maybe the certain excavating companies to see if they're even interested in that sort of thing", "you know i don't know maybe they're", "we could ask the sheriffs they've probably been involved in these situations", "maybe they know contractors that would do this work", "so they would start there", "well let's meet the middle issue for two weeks and we'll have some answers to you", "and then if we're not there all the way with answers then it'll be", "but let's shoot for two weeks how's that okay that's fine", "that's fine", "all right", "but we understand the hard spot you guys are in", "we really do", "yeah", "don't go up and needle them or anything but see if he's around in it from a distance or just seeing if there's foot traffic or you don't think he's around yeah that's a lot harder than you think because i don't want to go near there", "but you can't go too close in it's tough", "we have a court order to deal with and we should deal with it accordingly", "i agree", "so thank you", "for a reason i think it should be enforced", "i think waiting until january is the wrong move", "i feel that this is a violation against a specific violator basically and to wait and have somebody else kind of take on that violation when you could enforce it now i think this is the wrong move", "i understand that things have gone on in the last week and that flooding takes precedence", "and i totally agree with that but i don't think that putting this off until january is the right move to be perfectly honest", "okay so let me put it this way", "so say we incur i dunno five ten thousand worth of costs right we go to court we get a separate order for that", "we tack that on now we're up to fourteen thousand", "what do you think our chances of getting that from mr blaze are probably not very good but the fact of the matter is there is a violation", "i understand that but we have i think in a way we have done justice because there we went to the fact to get a judgment order", "we will be reimbursed that money one way or the other from the legal fees", "so i know it didn't go to full conclusion but", "you know at least", "i know it doesn't but to me it feels like", "the way it just keeps going", "because in a sense it's almost like he knows this one big press which is milking the system", "well i don't think reimbursing the full and not the deconstruction costs", "well we'd have to go for a separate order there and then i'm not so sure", "i would like", "i would like clarification from our attorney that that will be tacked onto this judgment order", "and lamelle will be responsible for that", "but i don't think it's right to make him responsible for that", "i don't think it is either but it goes with the property", "i mean you know the judgment orders here he didn't fulfill you know his obligation to tear down the structure", "then we have to go in to fulfill our obligation of enforcement", "so violation goes with the", "the violation does but the cost", "and the cost to remove these structures would be then recorded as a lien against the", "okay okay fair enough", "so i'm just a little kind of questioning the time between the tax sale and the lien", "you know there seems like a little something there that's missing", "maybe lamelle would like to tear it down himself", "that's a good that's a good thought", "that's a good thought", "that's a good thought", "and then he wouldn't incur the costs in the long run", "that's an excellent idea", "no but he's as a contractor or whoever he chooses to use as a contractor", "i also don't want to make it sound like the town doesn't have the money or can't afford to do something like this", "i don't wanna make that sound the way it is", "i mean funds are tight and we have a lot of expenses but again you don't not enforce rules because they're expensive", "and i don't think that's", "yeah like i said i'm not trying to say that but i'm just saying it adds into the you know i'm just looking you know say he does get it back at tax sale", "you know does he have to does all this have to come with it before he gets titled to the property or it's just the tax sale", "if he comes up with the tax sale money he still retains title but these still hang", "i think that judgment is still enforceable", "no i realize it's enforceable but but he doesn't have to pay is what i'm saying", "he has to pay his obligation to the tax sale to get title back to the property", "this stuff is separate", "it is separate but he would still be obligated", "i realize that somebody can be obligated forever and they're not gonna pay", "so it would be an ongoing dispute again", "i realize", "and just adding twelve every year", "and even if the structures are moved in you know he puts up another structure", "well that's a new violation", "that's a new enforcement", "it seems like it would be", "yeah i liked jerry's idea", "i think it'd be probably be prudent to contact mr lamelle and have a conversation with him about this", "so there's nothing there's nothing wrong with that", "a good idea", "let's do that", "that's a better", "so anyway are we all set do you have anything adrian would like to say or okay we'll do the best we can", "thank you guys for coming in", "so we have a tom garage heat approve audit", "is that something that we have to is that what you're here for here are you here for that or not did you talk about murphy yes", "and and we're going to have to reschedule that cause i totally forgot about", "reschedule him", "he was here at the last meeting", "i don't know i was out of town", "i sent a bunch of emails and never got any response", "i don't know what's going on", "okay i think we get skip on this and put that on", "i can't go off hand i'd say this has gotten a little bit of glacier pace", "yeah that's fine", "that's fine", "so now we have a town hall restoration projects on an email they detailed report needed to be done", "mike wisell worked with a contractor to put that together", "and did everybody review that okay how do we", "how do we feel do you have anything to say mike or anything you'd like to say yes", "i think that this that you have there that outlined the exterior repairs and replacements that you have speaks for itself as far as it goes but there's the issue of the storm windows", "and there was some discussion about a way to thermally improve these large historic windows and yet keep the windows in tact as a historic window", "and that was all set to have someone from parker and stern speaking here to look at ways that we might be able to accomplish that plan", "the events like this was a week ago your last meeting call me and say stop for now", "so i don't know where we're standing in terms of continuing on with this evaluation and inventory process or whether it's on hold temporarily or permanently or what but my next step if you want me to continue with any of this on the town hall restoration would be just to speak with someone like parker and sterns and get some hopes for what we would possibly be able to do to improve these windows", "and then add that information to the to the list that you have", "so you've got a full rundown of all the things that are recommended and then you can take that and go out for bids from contractors that would be able to implement this work", "right", "well i guess we had a little discussion last week when we ended our meeting just near the end whether we had you know properly authorized you to do this work or not", "so we could review the minutes from last meeting", "go ahead mark", "i don't think there's any misunderstandings", "because what i said we needed from mike in order to have him which is what we required from contractors", "and that just to keep in mind going forward purchasing policy and bid process", "i never said that mike could not have this contract", "all i said is we needed the payment", "sure i didn't say that but there were some other things that were said and i'm not going to i don't want to go there cause i want to put that behind us and we can review the tape from last week", "cause i thought it was very clear", "but like i said i want to put that behind us", "i want to move forward", "i think we have discretion", "i came to you and i asked you about our policy and we do have some discretion when we want to hire design professionals and people of your expertise", "so it's whether you feel like you would like to continue and whether this board feels like what we the decision we made two weeks prior to last thursday", "a policy of how we can hire a design professional without a bid process i don't have it in front of me but i", "there's professional engineers", "the bid process shall not apply to the selection of providers for services that are characterized by a high degree of professional judgment and discretion including legal financial auditing engineering risk management land surveyors and insurance services", "so i think we're we're all as a board trying to be very careful to stick to our policies have the proper hiring practices in place", "do competitive bidding all that sort of thing", "whenever we can", "i think from what we just read there in the policy i think it makes total sense and make sure that we hired mike who was such a good fit for this project", "so i very much strongly would hope that mike would to make a motion to keep mike on here working away at this because there's i must say there's very very this is a complicated project on this building", "there's not enough staff in our town hall to take on a project like this", "and i think again brad's idea of hiring some outside skilled services like you offer may make a ton of sense", "so i personally like to go forward with that", "i agree", "okay so i don't think we need a motion", "we'll just continue the agreement we had", "if that's all right with mike", "now i'd like to revisit the page road project", "can i just get one more step on this one one of the other questions mike and i talked about this project and he was going to meet like he said with the window piece but the other thing i just wanted to", "do you have any input as to a particular list of people to get bids from or if you want to advertise in a particular paper you just want to leave that up to us", "burlington free press or seven days or", "as far as following the bid process", "yeah so that was i was hoping also i don't think anyone is too busy to be out there looking for contractors and putting out bids", "it doesn't i don't you're too busy for that", "it doesn't", "but the financial part does but not like looking for those contractors", "so i also would hope that mike you'd be a part of that process because i don't know", "sure", "someone said something about you wondering if mike still interested", "i am", "not at all offended by anything has transpired in the last week", "i just want to know why do you want me to do and i'll be happy to work on this", "i'm happy to continue with the air conditioning element of this as well if you want me to be involved in that", "i think you're going to go to pedro", "more than eager to help with that", "so from my perspective i'm in", "well thank you thanks", "so if you want to just skip the rpc for a minute and talk about or what you want to talk about ac", "given you know given the circumstances too i don't know", "we've put the old air conditioners back in", "well the monitors in i know and pam my biggest concern with the air conditioning is the health conditions for our workers", "you know for our employees", "i'm not a big fan of those ac units", "they're the same ones", "they get taken down and they get put in the storage", "nobody bleaches them out", "nobody cleans them", "who knows what everyone is breathing in you know and i just don't think i think they are extremely unsightly hanging out the window", "so i think they're a security issue", "so my goal was to and the reason i was trying to expedite this work is because in my thoughts were to you because you know you don't have a lot of time involved and you get things done in a nice quick order and thorough", "so i just wanted to see the ac units get put in", "so", "i would still like to pursue getting the prices and then see what see what kind of money we're talking about", "but i don't know", "there's a little rfp that they put together for that", "and that's been sent out to five contractors that do this type of work and i've contacted each of them by phone and spoke to them personally about whether they're interested in this", "and they all said they were", "so i sent it to those", "so there's five people that in the next i think it's two weeks i'd have to look back at the dates but there's a date when i've said that we need their proposals", "and there's someone from i think it's energy supply company that has already looked at this", "and they've given you a proposal which was kind of the basis that we started all this", "and i've contacted them and told them what's up in terms of we have to get multiple prices and they might want to come and look at it again make sure that their number is still the number they want to go with", "so the way it's been set up those five people are free to contact the town office any time during the workday for the next two weeks to come and look around and see what it is we want to accomplish", "and then go back and work up their price", "and i've said that if sherry or dawn i can't answer their questions", "i can be contacted and i'll get the answers for them", "so i think we're in a holding pattern for two weeks come out here and take a look and give us the price", "we'll have the numbers so we can evaluate them and decide who to get to do the job", "my only question on the project and i totally forgot about this", "and mona mentioned it", "we had put in the capital improvement to reconfigure the downstairs", "and originally we put the ac on hold because we weren't sure it was going to work with the new layout of the downstairs because of walls being put up", "is that still the case or do we just want to do this i don't think we should wait because that's often my nemesis", "i'm always waiting for the next thing", "i'm trying to get planned up thinking way too far ahead", "and if you do that you never do anything", "so", "it's just that was in this coming year", "the unit will be of use whether it has to be moved again or not", "it's still at least it's there", "it's down there it's functioning", "that's the way i feel", "i don't know how you guys feel", "it gets quite warm down there in the summer", "humidity down there", "the humidity the volume the land records", "we have some old paper", "sherry has to run the dehumidifier all the time and the wine cellar vault", "there's some stuff that's just irreplaceable down there", "is there any reason to throw the", "i think we set aside about five thousand for some engineering ideas for downstairs", "does that ring a bell in the gap improvement plan does it make any sense when since mike's on all this stuff is on the building is on the ac for him also just to get someone looking at or him looking at or someone looking at this so that it isn't at least partially part of the plan", "you know i don't know", "i agree we can't take on too much and get bogged down and never get ac done but i just wonder if that should also be put on mike's plate or do you think that's overboard it could but we can't use that money until july", "yup", "and as we've talked about before if we don't get on the stick with the ac once it gets hot everybody's going to be out everywhere putting in ac units", "so i think we just need to move forward on the ac and then take that you know having an architect look at the layout down there as a separate right the layout will change anyways", "yeah right so whether the ac you know the unit will still be good whether it moves through a different place", "i don't think will", "but we really don't need a motion on this", "this is just information", "no this is just clarification of what whole business", "now i just wanted to talk about the page road", "i know it's not on here but i know we talked about the grant and you know and until we receive the you know the final word that we have the grant that we really shouldn't be spending any money like technically you can't get paid out of this grant because you've already worked before we've been awarded the grant", "but i think it's wellworth you're very close to being finished", "is that correct well i mean with the preliminary", "i've got a preliminary design on paper and the next step is to draw up a final plan some extra details that i haven't drawn at all yet preliminary or otherwise", "and put together a set of bidding documents you know the general conditions and tid schedule and that kind of thing", "so i'm not too far off but there's a bit more time involved", "i'd say a couple three days worth of time", "okay so where do we stand right now for your time all of this you've done so far", "we surveyed the bridge", "i told you before i'll stick with it that i'm not going to charge you for that time because you're volunteering your time i'll volunteer mine", "putting this preliminary plan together that i've done so far", "and then with the town hall what are we talking total here oh i think i got something like eleven or twelve hours total for everything", "and my hourly rate is seventy", "twelve hours", "so we almost have a design ready to go for pedro", "i think what i'd like to say about pedro is i realized that we shouldn't spend any money until we get the you know the final grant in our hand", "but we've been told that that we will be i don't know how it was the what do you want to call it donna was it a", "preapproval", "preapproval that we will be getting this structures grant hopefully that will still stay given the circumstances", "but i find that if we spend a little money upfront you know whether it's not in the grant but a little money up front to get ourselves in a better position", "so when we do get that grant we can put it out to bid and get it done", "reimburse yourself for the money you've spent up front can't you i don't know about that but i'm not really concerned", "how does that work with like the sidewalk grants or anything where you've got engineering you do ahead of time before you get your grants it's not qualified", "it's not qualified no you can't get reimbursed for anything that starts before you get any grant", "okay", "i was just going to say it doesn't sound like it's even a thousand dollars", "you know this really helps get the process going contingency fund and not worry about", "yeah anything that happens prior to doesn't count as qualifying costs", "it's like we're not there you know", "okay", "i want to kind of sit through this and i want to talk about some new business but", "sorry i'm not trying to have a conversation here but i just wanna say that i think we're", "it's money well spent hedging our you know hedging our bet that we're gonna you know we've gotten a preapproval of this grant we're going to get there", "i just think it's going to expedite the situation and everything will flow together", "and hopefully we'll be able to get that project done", "i noticed that similarly slips away and construction time slips away", "and it's already june", "and if you're not doing this baseline work and having that bid material all ready to go and it takes another whatever amount of time we're going to lose another year here on pedro", "so i agree with brad that i think it's money well spent that have our ducks in a row by doing the rest of the work of it", "do we need a motion or is this just administrative this is just clarifying still what we're", "i just want to clarify one more piece on that", "so you've got a preliminary design on papers", "are how's it gonna work as far as approval of the design before he goes and does the bid cause we talked about various options", "so i'm wondering when did we decide well we should decide", "we've kinda mike and i've talked about it", "we involved nate", "we should make that decision and but i think the two proposals basically we have a bottomless box", "i even ran it by the engineer the fema engineer when you were out there i said we have legend the bottom of this", "i said we'd like support two footings and you know put the arch box in", "and he thought that was a great idea", "now that i see what's happened maybe the eighteen does make sense instead of the fourteen", "i mean that thing was just", "eighteen foot foot", "okay", "anyway and then but then we thought well maybe this project will be too expensive", "so let's put in a second option which would be the arched", "steel", "steel", "steel instead of the concrete rectangle on footage", "same footing so it's attached to the ground pinnable edge", "and then it was still on in both cases it was still have lane walls to protect it from blowing out", "it's just a much less expensive structure", "i'm around numbers here now", "but it seems to me that the bottom was concrete box culver", "that's quoted from camp precast milton forty thousand range", "but just for the structure", "no wing walls no frames", "just drop crane into place and the multiplay arch pipe or rock arch cohort that go down on the footings instead is in the seven thousand range", "but the lifespan is less you know so it's nicer to have the concrete box culver if you can afford it", "how much do you think there's going to be in site work i don't think we need to go there", "that depth what i want to say", "yeah what i want to get at is the point is mike has kind of designed it", "so he shows both of these options", "so when we put it out to bid we'll get a price for each option", "excellent", "then we'll know it doesn't have to go back out to bid we'll know where we stand and then decide what to do", "so i think it's a great way to go", "and like i said we're very close", "i did hear some comments from vtrans out there that you know i talked about the structures grant and then there were some backpedal anyway but we'll see as we go forward", "so then then we have the rfp for the pleasant valley", "i had put together an rfp for the paving on pleasant valley road in general", "but i didn't know with the changes that we've had if we're going to take the money that we were going to use for paving that one section of pleasant valley to repair pavement and other areas", "so i didn't i've got an rfp prepared", "the only thing it doesn't have is additional technical specifications", "i did just a general what we're looking for type of surface", "cause you know i don't know with any of these technical specs go or not", "i have to sit with nate on that piece but the basic rfp is ready to go", "yeah i think yeah", "i think we should wait obviously should hold off till we have a better idea of where we are where we're coming what's going to happen", "so i'm just going to put it on the back burner for now", "i think that's wise", "i just wanted to get that clarified cause it's an outstanding project", "so then to move on to new business here i'd like to just start with a piece of new business before we get into this other stuff", "and that is four zero six mitigation", "and i'm going to explain what that is", "so when there is a fema declaration every time there's a fema declaration there is mitigation money set aside to improve structures and roadways that have repeatedly washed out", "so we are currently in the irene mitigation right now", "and the deadline for mitigation applications or grant letter of intent applications are is june 7th", "and i was", "i was strongly encouraged by dick hoskins of district five engineer to apply for these grants", "we all know how large irene was", "and i would think not that i'm just kinda on a common sense line of thinking that we think the bigger the event the more the mitigation", "so irene was the biggest event we've seen", "i would think there's a lot of heat concurred that there was a lot of mitigation money in there and that we would probably qualify for that", "basically we just need to i don't know this is a website i forwarded to donna", "and there's a bunch of forms and a description of what it's all entailed", "but i believe that if something that's repeatedly washed out or have having to be replaced or repaired you know a certain number of times i don't know if there's a magic number for that", "three okay", "so we've got irish settlement road down in the north end", "you know nate's suggested that that's washed out six times", "poker hill i know i've been here for two wash outs of the big fourfoot culverts on the north and the south pedro road for sure", "but i don't know how that will go with a structures grant", "you know they may who knows they may try to pull that and steer us down the mitigation line", "i don't know", "we've got dune road multiple times that stuff we've got places all over town", "but the situation i see that we're in right now is we don't have time that if we've if we don't get a letter of intent out by june 7th we're gonna miss this money and it'll be gone", "the mitigation will be gone", "but then we'll be onto another mitigation", "go ahead", "that's correct", "anytime there's a declaration", "so and this is something i didn't know", "and you wouldn't even have to be and we were not declared by irene in this county but because of that anybody in the state of vermont is eligible for this mitigation money", "and i had no clue", "i have to", "i just assumed that we were not involved either until i was told just the other day someone from fiona explained to me there's two things", "there's four zero four", "mitigation is four zero six and this is four zero six", "this is public assistance", "so as i said this is the irene declaration", "what needs to be done by june seven well i'm getting there so let's see", "so the letter of intent would include a description and a total estimate of the project", "so this is a situation and i'm gonna use the policy again", "i'm going to refer to this policy", "i don't know it would be great if we had all kinds of time to put out an rfp to several different engineering firms and to have them", "this is something i don't think we can do", "and if we want to take advantage of the situation and potentially get mitigation money i'm proposing that we hire some engineering firms or whoever to", "or split it up to you know come up with a list of projects", "and as i said just try to contact some engineering firms to see if they can do it on time and just go there", "you know i think it's", "yeah i know it sounds crazy but i'd rather", "this opportunity", "well we've used you know mike is sitting right here but i don't want to speak for him but you know we have champlain consulting engineers", "they've did a study for us", "i'm just talking about people that have worked for us in the past", "and i happen to know all the engineering firms in this county", "i know all of them personally so this isn't any conflict or i'm not trying to you know give suggestions", "i know everyone", "and literally", "and i'm just gonna give you some names of who has worked for us in the past", "champlain consulting has worked for us", "they did an irish settlement english settlement lower english settlement", "they did a drainage study there", "they've currently helped us on our stormwater discharge permits on mount vista and another road that the town owns", "we've used civil engineering associates clark elliot lives in town here large engineering firm out of south burlington", "they do all the work on the range", "very well qualified", "we have mike wisell here that's helped us", "true dell consulting has helped us in the past but given the fact that they aggressively came after us in the last commission you know hearing with ginny county road commissioners that didn't set well with me so", "but those are the people that have helped us in the past", "all very well qualified", "and i would propose that again you're going to be hedging some money here and i don't know if you ever have you ever applied for any of these grants mike can you guide us at all i have no idea but they just said they said it doesn't matter", "you could be up in the corner of the northeast kingdom and you're not even involved with this mitigation money is it's public", "that's why they said four zero six", "think of the last six since there's six letters in public", "so that's the way remember", "so it's for everybody", "now how much information we have to have on these well as i said that we need to that's where i just don't think you know given the time constraint you know what do we got seven days eight days but the letter of intent needs to go out by the seventh", "the actual grant i believe is the six the 12th i think", "but we could talk to ray doherty is the contact", "and i gave him a call before i got here but he was gone", "i'd like to talk to him and see just how involved what's involved", "you know i don't think it's necessary to go out and design something", "i just think a competent engineer needs to go out come up with some suggestions get some estimates write a description and apply for the grant", "so again hedging your bet but i was strongly urged to do this", "you're going on vacation", "do you have time to do something like this between now and then to reach out to find different engineering projects i got to have i got a no", "yeah i know", "we need to come up", "we need to move quickly here", "and i don't mind working on this over the weekend but we need to come up", "i'll sit down with nate we need to come up with some", "and then when you out to have some documentation in the meantime to back it up but i know we've got some records in the vault downstairs of various flood events", "so", "that's right let's just hold it for one more back", "you know if we could find one more back and i know a ninety ninety eight i think or ninety six there were some big that we have", "i saw the records in the ball down there for that event", "and they're pretty thorough", "did you guys get flooded during that one no i don't know but i know there's records down there of past flood events", "sherry could probably help round up all that info and go through it", "you have any idea of the cost implications of this as you say hedging the bet", "i don't think we're you know i don't think you'd be talking more than you know i mean i don't know", "i hate to say but you know like maybe you know one thousand five hundred to two thousand per truck per location per project you know i don't know", "maybe they could give us a lump price", "if you get if your group a bunch of them together maybe they could say well we'll do these for x amount of money", "and i'd want to get a price before he got involved", "you know just an estimate", "but i trust all these people", "they you know they're confident and they're not gonna you know true dells you know i'm not gonna speak badly about them but we've spent lots of money with them in the past", "and", "so", "we need a rp right no i'm saying that i don't want i don't want to go down that road", "i want to use", "and i know if we had time if we had time i just don't split up", "first of all you just got to call these people and see if they could even meet this deadline", "right", "they might not even be able to meet it", "and if they can't then we drop it", "you know i mean i'm willing to work", "i'm willing to work on a couple", "and if sherry if we wanted to team up and try to do what we could maybe if all the information wasn't there but our letter of intent was there", "i'll talk to ray doherty and i'll get this true scoop of what he wants what he needs", "so i'll do that tomorrow", "so we got to get the letters out first", "well the letter of intent needs to be the seventh but you need to get the engine", "first of all if i talked to him first thing in the morning i will know more what's involved", "and but you got to make some recommendations", "like we can't just go out to iris out on that road", "somebody needs to make a recommendation of what to put in there", "and then you need to get a cost of what that's going to cost kind of scrambled together like you did on pedro", "i'm done", "i don't know richmond teisberg jericho probably done a half a dozen concrete box culverts", "i've done a bunch of large pipe designs", "i got all the records for that stuff in my files just to bid what the price is worth", "it's not it doesn't take very long to come up with an estimate of what it's going to cost to build a similar structure", "and as long as we can do an estimate based on that level of detail not on an actual dissolve it's not going to take long to do that", "for instance that big pipe by my place if that's one of the ones you want to look into i mean i think in no more than four hours certainly probably less", "i could do an estimate of what it would take to replace that a little on your structure", "right", "you know that's like two hundred and eighty for four hours", "now you hire some of the larger firms", "their rates are going to be a bit higher but it's not going to be double blind or anything", "it's gonna be ninety or something instead of seventy", "so it costs you a little more but i don't think that it should be a real time consuming effort for engineers to take a look at these", "so if you could come up with a list of the structures that you're worried about over the weekend and then make a few calls to see if you could do something a little bit", "i don't think it would be a big deal a couple of days", "and the first part of the week next week", "by myself anyway could have a number for you for that", "the other thing that occurs to me is if some of these habitual problems structures that you've got in town are really reasonably small", "like thirty six inches or less forget about it", "no i know right right", "the problem is you know", "you know a lot of these sometimes they required a drainage study", "and engineering firms can do a drainage study", "you know they can do one in an afternoon you know they pull it up and they study whether you wait and you know you try to get first burnout state", "you can get that information for free", "so divvied it up i think it's an excellent idea", "basically need to do is just i don't mind calling right early in the morning", "and i don't mind making a few calls around to see if people are even interested in making this deadline or interested and then we can get either by email", "or somehow you know make that decision to go forward", "so", "you might as well take advantage of the money", "it's all our money anyhow", "so don't forget that", "for something more along the way so", "do we need a motion we're not spending money right now so i don't know", "no we're just i guess it was just discussion", "i don't well they could make a yeah go ahead", "make a motion to contact six engineering firms to", "well easy", "we're not going to contact six engineering firms", "they're going to con", "i would like to contact people we've used in the past", "and if they're not interested or they can't help us then i could try to broaden my reach", "contact several engineering firms", "several engineering firms that sounds good", "and see spread this how many structures well i don't know that we need to come up with an inventory list", "multiple structures over several engineering firms to get our letter of intent to fema", "well yes it'd be well actually it's to the state of vermont", "state of vermont", "it's a four zero six mitigation", "for four zero six mitigation", "all in favor i", "so great", "yeah no problem", "and like i said i wouldn't have known any of this unless fema told me and the costings from district five so", "so we have winter sand hauling winter sand", "i had been contacted about a couple of people in town wanted to know if we were going to do that", "and i said yes we will be putting out a rfp for all of the winter sand", "five bucks at a time well by the time whatever whatever they whatever the bids come in", "you know then we'll decide do we have anything we're not there yet so", "do we have any i was wondering why it was on the agenda there", "will get notified and then how they could bid on the process and when it will start", "i know we had talked about payment to a portion of it the town will do a portion of it", "how much if you had a limitation to how many times you could do yeah i want to first of all i want to go over and measure the pile up get a good handle on the volume we have right now in the yard and then we'll figure out what we're going to need", "and then we'll figure out what we got money for in the budget", "and then we'll make that decision", "but if you get the names of those people that contacted you we'll make sure to get that information to them", "it'll be in the paper", "it's just put it in a local paper and the free press prior to seven days", "so it'll all be part of the rfp", "maybe mid to later june", "so and then we put a date on you know when we'd want all that material", "and my thought was that yes you could haul some you know when we get closer to the fall october november you know when it's real rainy and crappy out and you want to you know do some of the hauling you can do that", "i just don't want to do the majority of it that's all", "but it'd be nice to get a handle on that yardage", "i can bring my instrument over and take a few take a few shots and estimate it's kind of coneshaped anyway so", "blake he wrote a rojan", "no i'm sure it's not", "now those trees that are in the broker they you think they're in the right of way or are they across the street yes it's probably i think it's a three rod", "we're not supposed to remove any", "i've been told by fema that we can't cut or move anything out of the right of way of the road", "take him over there all right", "that'd be the time once you got him you might as well take him anywhere you wanna", "is there yeah", "yeah we got a situation on silly hill", "it's i just went up there at night check it out", "we got about eleven feet of travel way there right now", "and that's the whole the pole's been fixed", "so the wire's been moved up yesterday but yeah we've got erosion all over the place", "so", "but you know what i just want to tell you you know talked about handwork but shouldn't scoff at that because over on ira's settlement road has structure over by mike's", "there's a beautiful little hand laid wall there on the east side of the inlab and it's held perfectly and you can tell it's gotta be", "and it's held perfectly", "it wasn't even touched", "i think some of those stones came from an old foundation land", "because we had to use native stones", "native stones okay", "so there's no rojan problem and what are we thinking well it's going to take personnel over there", "and we talked about using the youth conservation corridor", "they said that it was going to be too big need bigger rock than that", "so", "jim ryan was willing to meet with nate and look at the site again but he thinks it's a potential for the better back roads grant", "that hasn't come out yet this year", "i don't think we're talking a big amount of work here", "i mean it's just that corner we're talking about a few of those like of stone", "is there that much well yeah there might be there", "what about the state prison workers well i mean it's an option", "no i know", "but now it sounds like it's getting out of the the handwork type thing and more machines so we", "all right let's keep moving along", "contract this next", "trash contract it has been a threeyear contract with clean green and it comes to it did actually ends six thirty", "this june 30th", "i don't know if you guys had a chance to read through that contract", "you know this this trash thing goes back way before my time here from my understanding of it", "you know i find a little out of the ordinary from most towns that were even involved in trash", "and i know it comes out of having a dump back in the day and wanting to have trash services for people out here", "i did there are multiple trash haulers in the area now as you'll see on your roads where there's to sell out here and meyers and everybody else picking up whatever trash you want", "my question just i guess this is more of a general question is why", "i'd like to look at why we're involved in a trash contract at all", "and what you know why do we feel we need to take that on as a select board the only the financial benefit where we do not pay for trash here at the town hall", "and we do not pay for trash down at the town garage", "and we get a roll off two roll offs a year", "so there is a small financial upside to the contract but at the same time we're also i think in order to renew any contract the size we'd want to get rfps or get it there out to bid and make sure that you know it's it's the right company and doing that", "but we have so much to do", "we have so many rfps to get out there", "the townspeople have many choices for trash", "i'm questioning why we need to have a trash contract at all", "that was the alternative", "and i think we copied it from jordan", "we did", "and at that time where there no other trash haulers out here or i mean", "no it was just convenient way to do it with", "and back in the day the town hall used to be involved in making stickers collecting money doing the whole thing", "now the contractor that does it provides the stickers goes to the store collects the money and our hands are basically out of it", "so i also don't see why the stickers program wouldn't go on without a contract", "they already have the relationship people already that as a vendor", "i again question you know and i'm sure that i don't monique speak to this more than i but i wonder if there's a liability any type of liability issue at all to being involved in a contract i don't know", "i did read it", "and i've just kind of been the same", "it seems to me that it's something that started with good intention and has just kind of gone on and on and kind of gotten scaled back and scale back to now we're at a point of i'm asking why", "the time probably isn't right", "i know we had a discussion of trying to get one contractor to handle at least one section at a time", "so you have trucks running all over here duplications of travel", "that idea is being kicked around by cswd it's called districting", "and there are upsides to it for the environment", "and there are downsides to it for small haulers", "now and so from a business point of view of a small hauler may go out of business", "but then again you don't have seven trucks driving around your town", "customer choice too", "so yeah there's the up and down side of that", "but again i with as small the government as we have here to be involved in the trash business or trying to regulate the trash business i", "well i think one of the other reasons is that we continue to all along a big emphasis", "chittenden county is to recycle and reduce trash that goes into a landfill", "and by being able to offer our citizens a curbside pickup for trash that you pay for and the recyclables go away free", "it helps that whole movement toward increase the recycling decrease the trash on the ground", "so there was sort of an environmental bent to it", "i think back when we started it and it still is really", "what you say makes more sense about i guess promoting maybe one hauler to keep you know all the traffic down but i think people should have the choice to hire whoever they want to take the trash", "i take my trash to cambridge", "and you know we no longer yeah we ran the dump in the old days", "we ran you went there", "we ran the dump you know and then beyond that then we went to stickers and it used to be you just went out and paid whatever", "the downside is in the next thirty days we'd have to find a trash service for town hall", "well that's not a big deal", "and the town garage", "and that will publish the schedule of the waste and recyclables in the newspaper", "and that will i'll put it on the website", "and that will reporting days for the semiannual collection", "it also says that recycling for town hall", "that was years ago", "that's old old stuff", "i think the only thing we need to watch out for is that no one's service is interrupted", "so my thought would be i'd like to get some feedback from clean green whether or not without a contract if they continue to sell stickers and continue to do their work out here", "so if they're willing to continue to do without a contract and no one's worse of the wear", "it does say here that services provided to residents and businesses are a private matter between contractor and those individuals and are outside the scope of contract", "i'm with you about the liability", "i mean say something happens you know and then somehow are we connected in are we party to the suit you know if there was one", "i just don't see why we need to be why does the town government needed to be involved in trash at all since we don't own a dump anymore it just makes no sense but people should have the freedom hire whoever they want", "i mean it was funny", "i was up in south euro and a friend of mine came in and bought crabs and he was buying a bunch of dump stickers", "so they still do the same thing too you know and so i think it's just people do it", "cause we always have", "how about this as a motion can donna can you get feedback from them on whether or not they'd continued if it wouldn't interrupt the service and they continue to sell stickers and then we revisit it at the next meeting to the contract itself", "if it's not an interruption then", "yeah", "does that make sense yeah and how much how much trash do you have over there at the garage nate told me maybe once a month or so", "yeah", "there's not a lot", "so that'd be the only consideration", "once a week probably", "alright", "so that sounds good", "maybe we should have clean green in too for the", "i was gonna say that was my thing since the contract's ending do we want to", "yeah once one would be the", "next we have a meeting next thursday don't we yeah but that's too soon", "i think", "i mean if the chance are ends on the 30th maybe we could get them on the 20th or something yeah", "then we have the sheriff contract that's also coming", "both come in on the 20th", "yeah", "sounds good", "okay so we have the", "well i just got i have this this was the access permit", "stuff was gone but we did david and i decided to grant the access permit next door here", "we couldn't find anything on our road policy or otherwise that would give us the authority to deny him that", "i think in certain situation this situation is okay because there's plenty of site distance", "we're going to remove the trees out front here", "but i put these restrictions on conditions", "i said that that he must use an experienced and insured contractor shall communicate with a road foreman before commencing work in the right of way or before commencing work shall have proper sign is traffic control while working within the town right away curb cuts shall be built to be seventy one standards and big say shall be called before commencing work", "so those are the conditions i put on", "sounds reasonable", "it's an off week", "so we have the minutes we never approved", "yeah we skipped over that", "oh yeah", "oh right the policy", "yeah", "yup", "i discussed that with town crew went over that with them", "and just a reminder that it's a policy basically just stating that you know crew or anybody on in the service of the town cannot you know use town property or town tools or anything like that to do anything with their personal equipment", "and so that's just a clarification of that policy and that's been handed out to the crew", "everybody's got it okay", "so we have an understanding there nate about that or do you have any comment okay thank you", "all right so now we've got the can i have the actual minutes because i did read them", "i just wanted to", "there was a mistake i had made that no one caught next to the name", "okay right", "i remember i remember someone pointing that out", "make a motion to", "i can make a motion to amend the", "approve the", "approve the amended minutes from four twenty five thirteen select board meeting", "i say", "all in favor i", "thanks jerry thanks jerry", "so we have the may 9th two thousand and thirteen minutes which we had the recreation committee in with pool", "excuse me we just got to finish up this and we'll be right", "we'll be ready to chat", "so we have the sign", "and we've made some conditions there i think", "this is where we had mike wisell to assist with the smaller projects", "the red cross shelter that's kind of curious", "i'm just going to kind of discuss this in minutes while we're in it", "just because it's remained", "yeah there was some talk about that night thursday night", "at two in the morning when i was down at the fire station when the state police and the rescue you know we wanted to set up a temporary shelter because there's quite a few people that couldn't get home", "so we wound up we're kind flailing around where to go", "i thought we could come here but this is kind of so out of the way and no one was here someone offered at the church but we wound up going to the browns river middle school red cross came", "but i think it's kind of important to have this", "we need to figure out", "this", "should we put this on another", "we should probably revisit this", "i know we kind of said", "it really brought it home", "we need to contact the school", "but if something happened here towards the center it would just be nice to have multiple locations", "so but anyway", "kind of asked them and then we decided not it kind of felt like we didn't wanna have everybody there because it wasn't very it wasn't very comfortable you know in the garage and with stuff going in and out people going in and out the doors are open", "they try to avoid having the shelter in the same location as a command center", "yeah that's kind of what we have decided but that doesn't mean they couldn't house the thing there", "and we could take it somewhere else", "yeah", "yeah", "yeah it's true", "essential school would make sense for here and then", "maybe the church in park street would make sense too but", "someone like to make a motion to approve the minutes like to make a motion to approve the minutes from five nine thirteen select board meeting", "i second that", "was there any discussion on that all in favor", "i i", "just all business here the stoners inquired if it would be possible where you put it relocate the speed limit sign to the same post as the watch children's sign", "it makes it hard to see plenty on the driver", "no action taken the stance that court needs to check in to sign regulations", "the one thing nate said we can not move it to the same bowl as the watch children", "so it'd be a case of where can we move the speed limit sign within", "i had a feeling you can't you can't gang up signs like that", "we can move it south", "is that going to make much of a difference the sign's line of sight is the question", "well it was her when she was driving her pickup truck coming out of the driveway she couldn't see towards the village", "or could it be raised if the sign was raised would that help okay", "all right", "you can move it which way nate i could move it towards the glass", "and did you see a spot that looked fitting and wouldn't be any resigned site", "okay thanks", "that came in other day for just a warrant entrance of parking a little bit", "that did come in yesterday", "okay", "yup thanks nate", "just to note to the cswd is going to be coming in next time to do it", "that would be good to bring up if we could rewind the trash hauling thing", "cause kind of what went through my head as i wonder we do we have an obligation with them to provide i wonder if there's some connection there just to talk to them about what would they think if we didn't you know support a trash hauler", "so we have another seven minutes", "next select board meeting will be the regular meeting on june 6th made arrangements for sherry to take the minutes on that as i won't be here", "and like said cswd is coming in at six thirty", "i have another agenda item at six", "and sherry has i think a liquor control board piece she needs to have done", "so i'm trying to keep it light since she's covering", "and then the other thing is we have a special select board meeting june 24th at nine hundred am to set the tax rate", "and then i also wanted to discuss we do not have a meeting scheduled for the week of july 4th because the select board schedule would make it fall on 4th of july", "someone needs to stop by to do warrants", "so just a reminder there and i didn't know do you want to schedule another meeting at some point prior to two weeks after that do we want to reschedule for a different night i don't know how you guys feel but given the circumstances we probably ought to try to meet on the 27th", "on june 27th is that crazy or that one week up we had one week after", "well with all this flood stuff it might be only a five minute meeting but why else to do it i'd rather do it then and then", "then we could off cycle though", "then we wouldn't have another meeting until the 18th", "right anyone going on vacation that week i'm gone i think the 4th of july i'm actually going on six twenty seven or six twenty six", "the only thing that really testing is warrants", "well those have to be done any way", "someone has to stop by and do those anyway we're talking about just what", "a regular meeting a regular meeting well we could do the 11th", "is that a better the 11th i've open schedule yeah", "okay so the 11th we'll do and then we'll just eighteen", "and then seven eleven and seven eighteen okay", "so can we back up again what are other gates coming off of the", "24th at nine hundred am of june", "and we're not really gonna set the tax rate tax rate sets itself", "review the tax rate", "24th of june at what time at nine hundred am nine hundred am", "that should be quick", "yes should be fifteen minutes", "and sorry what was your", "the 6th of june and then the 20th of june", "our standard meetings", "and you're adding the 11th", "and then we're going to go instead of july 4th it's going to be july 11th and then back on schedule july 18th", "six twenty", "and then someone would need to stop in the week of the fourth to sign warrants", "so we're going to be eleven to eighteen", "okay yep", "july 3rd", "okay", "oh we have a board of bateman meeting", "did you guys get that one is that new it's new it's recent", "what's that one of the bateman that one coming up", "do you have that in there i don't have a new board of it oh i do", "what do we do that one coming up here i don't remember what the date of the board of bateman is", "is it on the same yes they didn't have enough cause they let him go", "that's a whole different one", "so we'll just find out we've got that from you know when it is six thirteen", "make a motion should we", "six thirty", "six thirty pm yup", "okay", "adjourn make a motion to adjourn this may five thirty two thousand and thirteen select board meeting at seven 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-{"audio_document_id": "WhiteAmm1942.flac", "identifier": "WhiteAmm1942", "text_document_id": "WhiteAmm1942.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [1670, 5450, 6580, 5080, 4413, 6709, 7980, 3610, 5286, 4144, 9550, 3410, 3990, 8993, 4860, 3890, 7123, 4110, 9223, 2983, 3360, 5498, 5932, 6780, 6521, 6160, 3223, 1865, 6409, 3667, 6883, 7033, 9959, 2930, 7396, 9970, 5960, 3620, 3180, 9540, 7700, 9207, 3660, 3820, 8690, 2720, 14211, 13638, 4604, 2050, 11470, 2553, 1430, 4550, 6073, 5280, 3023, 3090, 5443, 3100, 4833, 5860, 4360, 3936, 5173, 6500, 3940, 6330, 6870, 4273, 6567, 4443, 7456, 4789, 9782, 3020, 1900, 3880, 2927, 4441, 3159, 4849, 5749, 5690, 5930, 2810, 5340, 11400, 7920, 12793, 4517, 4060, 3599, 4810, 7733, 5730, 4485, 2950, 3940, 8640, 2293, 5430, 7102, 6693, 4503, 5050, 7574, 6500, 10830, 8750, 2980, 9096, 9640, 5713, 9698, 4613, 27227, 8353, 3115, 8177, 4794, 4600, 4446, 5220, 10430, 6893, 4132, 5961, 4563, 4250, 5276, 4420, 5850, 7030, 13929, 10560, 11650, 7630, 7757, 6180, 3390, 6770, 13273, 2913, 7812, 5660, 11370, 4377], "label": ["one thousand nine hundred and forty two", "america rising quickly from the crime of pearl harbor answer the challenge to liberty and freedom", "hoards of sleek planes are guarding the skies over our homeland while countless others are battling a treacherous foe", "mighty floating fortresses are ranging the seven seas relentlessly hunting down the enemy", "and at the same time watching over the vital supply lanes to our allies", "huge juggernauts of american design and manufacture are rumbling along many foreign terrains in everincreasing numbers", "and far behind the actual battlefronts another war is being waged the war of production and still more production", "our armed forces must constantly be supplied and reinforced", "the and industrial output many times our normal peacetime capacity", "shipyards are humming with activity day and night", "thousands of new workers have been added to the payrolls skilled men to faction the battleships destroyers and submarines that are making our fleet the greatest in the world", "they find the guarded doors of giant plants throughout the country", "airplanes of every type in design are being built by the thousands", "sleek fighters capable of doing over four hundred miles an hour dive bombers that can swoop down on their prey at a speed of over six hundred miles an hour", "first the skeleton of the plane is speedily formed by scores of skilled specialists", "every part must be fitted with microscopic accuracy", "while the plane is being assembled other workmen are building and testing the new powerful motors that will carry the plane into the sky", "equally important to the allout war effort is production of tanks", "these titans some of which weigh over fifty tons and contain more than forty thousand specially made parts are now rolling off the assembly lines at a fantastic rate", "ready to take their place in the fight for freedom", "but while tanks and planes and ships are most important", "they are about but a few of the thousands of varied articles and products necessary for defense", "more production means greater supplies of raw materials materials that come from everywhere", "pig iron to feed blast furnaces burning up huge quantities of steel necessary to arms production", "pig iron copper aluminum coal pouring from the caverns of the earth", "rubber for the tires on which roll the modern mechanized army and for a thousand other uses", "rubber that comes from the plantations of the tropics", "materials from everywhere", "take leather for example so important to the production of ammunition belts bolsters and gas masks", "where does it come from why from the western steer of course", "that's his contribution to national defense and his cousin the cow does her bit too", "by providing the country with the most important factor in personal defense pure wholesome milk", "while milk with its bondbuilding calcium and health building vitamins fortifies the body and makes america strong by making her citizens strong", "young america learns the milk drinking habit early", "while their young bodies are constantly using up energy in the variety of activities that make up the day of the typical healthy youngster", "swimming and skating and football are great fun and the children love them but they are energy burners and this energy must be replaced by nourishing foods", "that is why it's smart mothers start their children off right each morning with a brimming glass of milk", "they know that no other foods supplies as many helpful elements", "and what is proved for the children is even proven for adults", "the tension and pace of these nervewracking days take a toll of our energies that is potentially dangerous unless we take extra care on the choice of proper food", "more and more people are beginning to realize the importance of cream on their cereals and butter on bread topped off with a glass of milk", "for breakfast is the meal that sets us up for the rigors of city life the continuous energydraining effort to keep up with the pace and prob the city itself", "today the speed up in our daily activities is greater than ever before", "and consequently we are more in need of a midday pickmeup", "that is why many large department stores have set up milk bars where the tired shopper and the children may pause a moment and replenish their store of energy", "that is why milk buyers have sprung up everywhere", "for whereas men and women realize that now is the time for all of us to be at the peak of our productive capacity and milk at lunchtime supplies the extra pep and vitality that we need to work more efficiently under the increasing tension", "for working as they do and tower the concrete and stone that glass of milk is their only chance to capture the helpful elements that come from broad green fields bright sunshine and fresh country air", "here in the peaceful surroundings of the dairy country it's mother nature's arsenal", "while she manufacturers quiet ammunition", "these cows have nothing to do but graze in the sun all day and sap up the health and vitality of the countryside so that it may be passed on in their milk to the people who are cooped up in the cities", "these herds are made up of the finest breeds of dairy cows", "this is a guernsey cow", "this type was brought to america in one thousand eight hundred and eighteen from the ireland guernsey and the english channel", "the guernsey is a mediumsized cow golden brown and white producing a rich milk yellow and creamy in color", "the black and white marking of this cow identify it as holstein originally developed in holland", "there are more holstein's in the united states than any other breed", "this large rugged brown cow is a brown swiss", "the breed was developed in switzerland and deported to this country after the civil war in one thousand eight hundred and sixty nine", "they ayrshire cow originated in scotland", "it is reddishbrown and white in color and produces a very high quality of milk", "this small fawncolored cow the jersey originating on the island of jersey in the english channel", "the jersey cow produces a small quantity of an exceptionally rich milk", "the world's best known cow elsie is a pure bred jersey", "now after a full day's grazing the cows are on their way back to their spotless stalls", "a far cry from the conditions prevalent in one thousand eight hundred and fifty one when gail borden was experimenting with milk preservation", "at that time cows were kept in dirty unhelpful surroundings", "gail borden realized that cleanliness was of utmost importance in the handling of cows and milk", "but although this fact seems obvious to us now he had to fight farmers tooth and nail to get his views accepted", "today the things for which he fought have become the standards of the milk business", "cleanliness is the watch word and everything from the barns and attendants to the cows themselves is under rigid inspection", "for milk is more than just a business today it is a public responsibility", "here the cows are being fed carefullyprepared vitaminrich silage and grain as a sort of dessert to top off their day in the pasture", "and if she's thirsty she need only press her mouth into the basin of this automatic button right beside her", "now before the cow is ready for milking she's carefully washed down by attendants who know as does everyone else in the milk business that you just can't be too clean where our milk is concerned", "then the cow is ready for one of her regular visits by the doctor", "no there's nothing wrong with her", "this doctor is one of a staff who was paid to keep cows well", "for you can't be sick and have anything to do with milk", "after a thorough examination the doctor then takes a sample of the cow's milk", "carefully checks for color and flakiness", "and if the milk is up to the established high standard the cow is then ready for the milker", "in this modern day milk production is as highly mechanized and efficient as any other large industry", "the cow still makes the milk but then modern efficient machinery steps in", "these mechanical milkers for example are both cleaner and faster than the old milking by hand process", "and from the cow's standpoint far more gentle", "the greatest advance in mechanical milk production that has ever been made is undoubtedly the rotolactor", "employing the principle of the assembly line this large merrygoround type of machine saves time by bringing the cow to the attendant instead of making it necessary for the attendant to go to each cow", "the cow enters at one end of the machine into it's own separate enclosure each complete with a milking machine and the receptacle for the milk", "the cows are first thoroughly washed by the attendants the receptacle tool sterilized with scalding water before it is used", "then as the cows move around the attendants attach the milking machine", "the rotolactor affords the utmost in protection for the purity of milk", "since the human hand has so little to do with the milking process", "the milk leaves the cow and it's pumped directly into the sterilized glass containers", "a further safeguard is effected by taking the entire machine apart several times each day for thorough sterilization of every part", "at frequent intervals a large laboratory off the milking room take samples of the milk for examination", "constant supervision of milk quality assures a uniformly pure product", "in five minutes the milking process is completed", "and as each cow steps off the rotolactor another one steps on", "while it is undoubtedly the most ingenious the rotolactor is but one of the many borden developments designed to provide you with better purer milk", "the milk is then chilled before shipment", "in other localities the milk is brought to large receiving stations by the farmer's themselves", "they're advised about the sanitary precautions that must be taken not only on the production of milk but on the transportation as well", "this milk too was carefully tested by plant technicians who sample each and every kind of milk that is brought in", "the milk is then weighed for farmers are paid by the pound not by the quart", "meanwhile the cans and lids are sent through a washing machine where they are thoroughly sterilized", "each farmer picks up only the cans that bear his number and and he keeps them securely sealed until ready for use again", "in the laboratory every known testing device is employed to check the appearance purity and quality of the milk", "a very careful record is kept of each farmer's product a sample of which was sent to the laboratory for detailed analysis from which the amount of money due each farmer is computed", "these tests also give the farmer valuable information on cow feeding and diet that will further raise the quality of milk from his farm", "thus the laboratory serves a twofold purpose", "first by ensuring the absolute purity up today's milk and at the same time investigating and discovering the means of making tomorrow's milk even finer", "after preliminary refrigeration the milk is then rushed to the city in large stainless steel glasslined tank trucks insulated to keep the milk ice cold", "carrying the freshness and helpfulness of the air and sunshine of the country to the city dweller", "arriving at the plant in the city the milk is pasteurized for thirty minutes at a temperature of one hundred and forty three degrees fahrenheit as a final guarantee of safety", "an automatic graph keeps a constant record of each individual pasteurization tank", "under the healthgiving rays of the ultraviolet lights some of the milk is aerated before pasteurization and thus important vitamin b is added to the many food elements milk already contains in the filling room the bottles come out of the washing machine where they've been thoroughly scald and sterilized for a period of twenty two minutes onto a conveyor that carries them directly to the filling machine", "like an army of glass soldiers they march up at the rate of one hundred and twenty every minute to each machine to receive their quota of white ammunition", "a powerful defender in the constant fight for a better health", "as the filled bottles are placed in their cases watchful attendants again examine them for imperfections and pass on only perfect bottles for delivery", "these are the twin quart bottles stepping up for their double helping of white ammunition", "one two one two the pace never slackens movement never stops", "for milk must be rushed from the cow to your table in the shortest possible time", "here as everywhere in the process of milk production the laboratory plays an important part", "every step of pasteurization and bottling is carefully watched by scores of skilled technicians utilizing every type of modern testing equipment and laboratory apparatus", "it is their observations that make the milk you drink the safest purest and most helpful food you can buy", "another method of packaging milk is the single service container", "it is manufactured entirely by automatic machines from start to finish no hand ever touches it", "once the container is farmed it is coated inside enough with scalding paraffin", "the result a highly personalized container that is used only once", "so popular in stores because of the ease of handling and because there is no deposit required", "the containers are filled and packed in exactly the same manner as the bottles", "this machine manufacturers ice which is used to keep the milk cold while it is being delivered", "refrigeration is essential because milk is a very perishable food and must be protected on every step of its journey", "and now the milk is on the home stretch in their refrigerated trucks a silent army of milkmen set out in the wee hours of the morning to deliver their bottled health down every street along every avenue rolls the dawn patrol", "we all take the bottle of milk for granted but very few of us appreciate the long and intricate process that has made it possible to bring the magic fluid from the farm to our doorstep", "a process involving selected herds of cattle scientific farming constant inspection laboratory research modern production machinery and mechanized transportation", "but it is far more important for us to appreciate the fact that milk is the foundation on which to build the family meals", "for packed into a quart of milk are a lot of essential food values that would be more difficult and far more expensive to secure otherwise", "bottle boxes are furnished by the thousands to families whose milk would otherwise be exposed to the elements", "incidentally the man who made this box never saw it", "for he is one of the shop full of blind men who are kept gainfully employed the year round making these boxes", "not only does milk go to homes but every morning a huge fleet of these heavyduty refrigerated wholesale delivery vehicles rolls out of the branches on their way to serve the store as restaurants hotels and hospitals of the metropolitan area", "today milk is a featured item in food stores", "in many self service markets these visual refrigerators permit a customer to select her own milk cream butter milk and other dairy products", "and today milk is playing an important part in the training of the greatest armed forces in our history", "a famous general once said the more milk you put into a soldier the more fight you get out of him for milk with its helpful vitamins and mineral elements build strong men", "and in this time of need it is strong men who'll give america it's strength"], "name": ["WhiteAmm1942/WhiteAmm1942/WhiteAmm1942_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "WhiteAmm1942/WhiteAmm1942/WhiteAmm1942_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "WhiteAmm1942/WhiteAmm1942/WhiteAmm1942_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "WhiteAmm1942/WhiteAmm1942/WhiteAmm1942_DOT_flac_00003.flac", 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2880, 3310, 2227, 833, 1550, 900, 1557, 1162, 6248, 2530, 995, 833], "label": ["good evening", "welcome to the south belmont zoning board of appeals meeting of april 4th two thousand and sixteen just by brief way of introduction", "we are still waiting for a couple of members who are expected to appear but we have a quorum and we can proceed", "with me as chairman john mcmanus associate member i'm eric smith jim sacartus and nick inesey", "i'll just give a brief introduction", "generally speaking what we do is we hear the applications", "we ask the applicants to make a brief presentation and i have a podium which will ask the applicants and anybody else who wishes to speak to speak from", "and we asked the applicant to make a brief presentation the members have read the written material submitted to the boards and you just need to hit the highlights mostly for the benefit of the audience", "the board may ask some questions at that point", "we'll ask the if there's anybody in the audience who wishes to speak in support of the opposition excuse me support of the application", "we'd ask people to speak if they were in opposition to the application there may be some more questions from the board", "and then assuming that the all the materials have been presented and the record is finished we would take it under advisement", "if it is taken under advisement we attempt to vote on at the end of the evening tonight", "but we go through all the public hearings first", "with that i've received a request from diane miller the architect for the applicant to number case number one thousand six hundred and three to go first rather than second because she's got a a belmont high school building committee", "their kickoff meeting is tonight", "so if the board has any issues with proceeding that way that's what i would propose to do", "i note that this was initially presented at the last meeting on march 7th and craig white who was present is not here", "and ganja who was present is also not here tonight", "i you know i just know i was expecting them but both nick inesey and tino machaco have watched the tapes in the last last meeting presentation", "so they're all up to speed on matters", "and they filed the appropriate certifications with rr so that they will be participating on this decision tonight", "so with that miller i believe we have we have revised plans which made a number of changes", "and if you could just briefly summarize those shorts thank you very much for accommodating my schedule tonight", "i really appreciate it", "so i'm diane miller from miller designs", "with me here tonight our and george young the homeowners", "and just to recap from last month what we are proposing is a twostorey rear addition", "it is a second floor extension above an existing space and then it is a new one storey volume behind that", "so i have the model with me again", "so this is the front of the house", "this is goden street chenery terrace", "the second floor addition is this portion here", "that's just taking the gambrel roof and extending it back a little bit", "and then this one storey volume is the new proposed one storey addition", "so i can pass that around i think we've seen can you perhaps focus on the changes form the last application sure so it was three special permits storey height front yard setback and lot coverage", "we just to remind you guys we have the signatures from the twelve neighbors", "we have one neighbor who i believe is here again to speak in favor", "and then another immediate abutter that had submitted a letter", "storey height and front yard setback were both relative to the second floor addition", "real quickly", "we talked about those in in terms of storey height because it's three and a half stories existing mainly that's driven by the basement which is because of this steep slope the topography on goden street", "however a few things working in our favor are that the the slope is high at both of the streets", "so those are the high points in the site", "and the gambrel roof is actually it makes it feel much lower because the second floor space has low roof low ceiling and eave space with the gambrel", "so it kind of hunkers down", "the overall height of the house is in terms of the linear dimension is two hundred and forty one feet which is actually about twelve feet lower than what the height requirement would be", "and then in terms of the front yard setback it's a corner lot as i had mentioned", "and so it's a one thousand three hundred and twenty five front setback to chenery terrace which is the secondary street the house faces goden", "so if that worries side yard setback it would be you know three and a half feet more than what would be required", "so that brings us to the issue that you guys really were concerned about last time the first two were things that i think were largely acceptable but the concern was about the lot coverage", "and so after doing some soul searching what my clients agreed to do is to remove their existing garage structure", "and that will compensate for the added lot coverage of the proposed addition", "and so what we have in your packet here is basically a one other thing that they're doing in in agreeing to remove the garage they had some storage needs that they needed to address", "and so the one storey portion of the addition would get two feet bigger so that they would have a little bit more storage space in that back basement room", "but the net result of these changes is that the existing lot coverage right now is two hundred and fifty three we were previously proposing twenty nine", "we are now proposing going down to two hundred and fifty one", "so from two hundred and fifty three down to two hundred and fifty one", "so we're reducing the lot coverage with this sort of compromise with the garage", "i also just wanted to note that the open space is at about seventy five", "so that's significantly more than the fifty open space that's required", "and even with the rear of the ones who are rear addition once this proposed addition were built it would align pretty closely with their neighbors house that the folks that are here this evening so their house sticks out currently much more so than this existing structure", "so it's not really gonna block much", "and in fact getting rid of the garage structure which is right here is going to open things up a lot on chenery terrace in terms of the visibility", "so that's basically the change that we made", "so we're hoping that that will satisfy the board's concerns", "thank you", "any questions members where are the extra two feet of the addition the extra two feet are on the first floor only", "so on the plans that i submitted i have revision bubbles showing the dimensions", "it's basically taking that mudroom and playroom and making", "so on on this this roof here this hip roof would just extend out two more feet", "this this piece", "okay we are now looking for three special permits one for lot coverage which is now supposed to be at two hundred and fifty one the side setback is the same as the existing which is really it's the goden street not the goden street excuse me it's the chenery terrace front edge", "and then the the other side setback", "the zoning compliance checklist shows that as being the sites at bay being eighty five but that was actually to the garage", "so the principal dwelling was one hundred and one", "but with that again you're not proposing to change that so", "correct", "and the cover stores is three and a half but it was three and a half before right was there any more questions in that case we just ask if there's anybody who would like to speak in support of the application sir if you could come to the podium and identify yourself for the record please", "there's a sign up sheet they can sign too", "you don't have to do that right now there's a sign up sheet if you could also sign it", "oh okay", "hi i'm jack jurris", "i live at eighty two goden street with my wife", "we're the uphill up goden street neighbors", "the seventy four we have a similar house", "i spoke a month ago to support it", "and so i'll be brief but we still are in support of the revised plan we think it's a good plan", "it certainly a compatible with our house and we feel with with the neighborhood", "we think it's a good plan for that house", "it's conservative bit it adds what it needs", "so we we hope you look at that favorably", "thank you", "thank you anyone else is there anyone in opposition to the proposal okay that being said in that case we'll take it under advisement", "okay thank you very much", "okay the next applications is another continued case case number one thousand five hundred and forty four three hundred and thirty four pleasant street the applicant is michael columba seeking it was initially four special permits but the building height is compliant", "so it's actually three special permits to convert the existing twostorey retail office building at three hundred and thirty four pleasant street into a hotel it's located in local business three zoning district", "thank you mr chairman my name is robert levy an attorney for the applicant", "there was a submittal meet with the board over a week ago to address certain issues that were raised at the last meeting", "the first submittal deals with a delivery trash pickup and delivery which was which was an issue we discussed last time", "and you'll see here's a letter from belmont suites hotel signed by mr columba saying that they will be proposed as to have two trash pickups a week no earlier than one thousand am and no later than three hundred pm which i'm sure the pickups do not occur during high traffic areas times", "second there was an issue as to question as to deliveries as was noted and as stated in the letter and there will be an inhouse laundry service", "so there won't be laundry trucks delivering", "there will be some food products delivered which will happen from mr columba's commissary and waltham", "that will be seven several times a week", "and again those deliveries will be at off peak traffic times", "the next submittal we have is a lighting report from mea engineering associates dealing with the lighting", "there are light fixtures on the sides of the building that are compliant with the dark sky guidelines and will not radiate illumination above the horizontal plane of the fixture shield", "that report is dated march twenty one and is part of your package insofar as any lightening on brighton street or pleasant street those lines will not exceed normal street line levels for public ways", "we also provided you with some product data for the air conditioning compressors which will be located on the roof", "the compressors i have a standard rating of a seventy three dba", "they will be located on the roof as i said and insofar as the ptech units are concerned those should be located closer to the street lines", "this report by asking text dated march twenty two which concludes that both those units the ptech units will not exceed the the bylaw of fifty five dba's daytime and forty five dba's nighttime", "as a result of this analysis there are a couple of the units we will be putting an architectural barrier around to help damper the sound there will be a faux balcony around them which will block it", "and the engineer opines that they will be well below the forty five dba required by the noise ordinance", "i believe those are the there's also a new elevation which shows the screening that will be on the building for the ptech units", "so i see that sentec acoustic consulting recommendations include the architectural barriers those little balconies shown on elevations", "so you're proposing to comply with this recommendation yes that's correct yes and i believe that those are the outstanding issues that were left open at the last meeting", "members any questions there was one issue eric that i heard you raise on the tape having to do with the fact that the closest thing to this on the list is hotel is apartment house", "and there was not an sp in that column for this did that ever get resolved i didn't hear that", "well made a presentation with respect to the zoning bylaw", "you know whether we find it convincing is another question but if you wish to ask them to address that point feel free", "well under the schedule of use regulations", "there was no itemized item for hotels or motels we've conceded that", "the closest thing that we could fit into we believe under the business district there is an other retail sales and services and the hotel so we suggest this is allowed as an ancillary use in that district", "we've also believed that it was certainly contemplated when the bylaw was enacted that hotels would be allowed in the city", "by the reason that the general regulations including for off street parking include a category", "this is five hundred and twelve c which specifically regulates for parking purposes for hotels", "were there any columns in that zoning in the table that referred to hotels there was not", "i see", "so we suggest that falls into other", "why do you think you fall into into the other category more than you fit into the apartment category because i think the typically apartment use and hotel use are two separate uses other than the fact that that people are living there", "this is not an apartment complex", "and we believe that since typically most ordinances do have separate hotel uses i'll concede that", "since belmont does not whether that was intentionally or by omission you know our belief is that the only the closest square hole for the square peg is in other use", "can you elaborate on the differences you see between hotel use and apartment use well obviously a hotel use is more transitory and people are coming there for shorter periods of time than someone living there", "there is a greater turnover rate than you would see in an apartment house and you know", "other than the only similarity is that people are sleeping there at night", "between that of that in the hotels and apartments there are other amenities that we're having that you wouldn't typically find in an apartment house such as food service", "we don't believe they're that similar", "well it's similar to a hotel use but it apartment use", "so the two main defining factors you see are the transitory nature of a hotel and the presence of there's other amenities to it", "and it's also providing another service for the town than you would see in an apartment", "providing short term housing for guests of your residence", "and i'm sure if you listen to the last hearing we discussed about what would the typical guests that we receive", "we're going to have people coming in visiting residents coming in for graduations coming in to go to medical centers and the like", "you remember there was one speaker who pointed out that this did provide a service that was not present in case of an apartment namely the ability to not have to have a house guests", "an advantage to some of us", "what do you anticipate what is the longest stay someone could stay at the hotel all we can tell you comment maybe anecdotally mr columba has another had another facility in waltham it's similar to this", "that's the only comment i have to tell you", "with my experience at the crescent suites which was completely you know every unit was furnished with full kitchens", "only about five would be there more than a month", "ninety five would be a week or less two days a weekend that nature", "from time to time we would have somebody who was relocating here for a job", "that they would be here for a three month stay but that was rare even at the crescent suites", "and i expect it to be even less so here because i'm only going to have what three units i think only three units have a kitchen", "and one of them is handicapped i believe", "yeah one of them is handicap", "otherwise it's only a few units have a full kitchen", "everything else will not be suitable for a very extended stay", "you studied this area before you took the hotel and you realized there was a large roomed hotel going on arsenal street and water town as well yeah actually i tried to buy that years ago i'm familiar with it", "so what why did you think that this would be a good spot for you because this accommodates more the belmont community but i mean from me to i mean to water town's is what ten miles ten miles from me to water town from where that is", "yeah i think it's a little less than that", "it's in arsenal street across from the mall", "again i'm serving the belmont darlington lexington community", "and i'm going to be between cambridge and walton the center", "i know there's a few hotels in darlington but again it's a concentrated area of belmont darlington the route through traffic you know yeah see it more as a boutique type hotel", "it's not carrying the national flag", "yes it's only eighteen units", "you know what i'm saying i'm not really you know again a little bit of corporate a little bit of you know personal residents visitors all of the things that we mentioned last week", "i mean last month", "so i read somewhere that if you don't get the hotel you're going to have it go back to a convenience store again well obviously at some point i have to put the building to use", "i can't sit on it for you know forever", "you know i mean i would rent it as offices upstairs and rent the first floor", "i mean i have a lot of people that are waiting for decisions of what i you know they would rent it and put a convenience store back in there", "you know another question for you did you study the trip generations over there and that travel did you see how close the trip generations were to the other project that was developed across the street it was a timing thing", "yeah it was only for at rush at rush hour it was lower", "by four cars", "i don't think we need to read the date stance matters", "so there would be four units that could only be for thirty days stays four units we're allowed a full kitchen", "when i say full kitchen you know just as full size stove refrigerator a little bit of cabinetry", "again there's only one bed", "so it's only good for a single or couple", "and this is usually you know i would say are a lot of the longterm stays were people that had for example a snow storm that caused damage to their house", "so the insurance company would put them up in a hotel for a month six weeks until the house was repaired", "people relocating from other parts of the country for jobs you know parents receiving you know i would have a lot of parents come from the summer visiting the students you know their children from you know saudi arabia europe asia whatever you know", "i mean those would be the long extended stay", "people will come over and use this as a base while they were visiting with their kids people who moved to florida from belmont who come back and visit the children or just had a baby or new marriage you know a lot of personal use for having a place to stay temporarily", "yep just have one quick question about the is there any change in the rooftop hvac units from the earlier presentation to this one no", "i didn't think so", "and even though the sentec report says that the rooftop units on their own do not generate excessive decibels at the property line we're still putting them in an acoustic enclosure connected to the elevator penthouse", "so it will be much less than what the code allows", "yeah and also instead of using one big commercial unit which has a high decibel i went with three smaller residential units which would be a lot less noisy and with each timeout difference it would be a lot less noisy", "any other questions members the light fixture sidelighting i'm reading mea's report here is this fixture the same one that lines the streets in the town center belmont thought i heard that", "it's the same manufacturer the same basic fixture yes", "and the reflectors yes and it shielded this one that has the the fixture shield which you know for the dark skies initiative and also to prevent you know it cuts off so that it does not spill excessive", "is that different than what we have in the town center i think it's the same as what we have at the town center except that the ones in the town center have higher voltage lighting", "they're brighter", "more lumens coming in", "and more lumens coming out of those", "but the potential for direct glare is the same because the reflectors are the same", "i you know the lighting engineer did not find an issue with that", "i honestly can't comment i don't know", "it's the same reflector but it's supposed to be a nonglare reflector that's why it's got the refracted finish to them", "it's supposed to spread that out", "so i really", "why is there an issue with the one about belmont center i don't know if there's an issue with these folks here i have an issue", "but the shield can be controlled", "so after they're installed the shields can actually be redirected so that no glare would be going outside the property line", "do you want me to show those no glare from somebody driving down the street like like you do get glare on the fixture here", "well these have a shield on one side they can literally just shine on this side and not in the backside you know or they can be controlled", "at least that's what i heard from the engineer when i met with them they can control visibly with the dark sky laws you know so when they install it you know they'll come out at night and they'll fix it", "and aim the lights so that it doesn't spill outside the property", "they can actually you know mitigate that with you know wattage you know less lumens you know so that they can achieve the desired design criteria that that they work on", "and i think last time one of the concerns was what are the foot candle readings what do they mean on the photo metric plan at the property line i think the engineer specifically deals with that which you said basically it's zero it's zero at the property line right", "and that's what i think we should all be after", "i i can't i don't know what zero means to the lighting engineer here", "that means that it's less than one lumens foot counts less than one foot candles", "and it's less than that so", "just like this so this is aiming on this side you don't see this you get very little glare on that side", "you know that can be mitigated", "like i said after it's installed you know they can come in at night and they can mitigate all that by aiming or closing you know the the shields", "any other questions all right let me ask if there's anybody and obviously the plan is essentially the same as last time but be with the changes that have been described does anybody have any any anguishes or support and by the way just so you know we obviously we've we were here last time so if you've already expressed general support or something you don't need to do it again", "it's just that i'm focusing on the changes to the plan", "okay sir if you could", "i'm donald mercy i'm a towny", "and i was living this precinct and i've been a resident of belmont for many years and i've seen different changes and different projects", "and i'm concerned about this project here", "if this hotel does not generate and do things they'd like to see done", "you've got to be very careful on what they might do on what decision that you give them", "and the suggestions i'm making is you have a maximum stay of thirty days", "if you start going over or use that concept", "but if you go over that you might have residence in there", "that's going to cost the town money to service them", "and i don't think that we want to put any more heavy load on the town", "and i think there should be no cooking at all on these premises because particularly in the rooms and this will make sure that we don't have these", "the ability to convert this into a longterm use", "so i don't think there should be any cooking or the equipment", "if you say oh you're not going to have equipment but they put a stove and they don't cook", "okay they were abiding by one law but you know make sure there's no equipment in there", "and as a suggestion i would also propose a fine for any violations of these things", "i'm throwing out a number here a three hundred a day penalty and adjusted for inflation", "because if you put a number on it now ten years down the line there's a violation", "we need an inflation adjustment on any", "i think the the town the bylaws cover whatever it can be covered with respective fines", "well i'll go through it and whatever you can use fine what you can't use", "that's fine also", "i'm only going from my own experiences as a property manager commercial property some of the things that i deal with and i shouldn't", "make sure that any of those fines are paid that the legal and collection fees are paid by the property owner", "can you move on to your next point please well i'm going down my notes and", "i'm just asking if you can move on to your next point", "and any fees to be paid should be paid by the property owner not the operator the property will have equity", "can you please move on to your next point we've discussed fines", "that's that's my main thing", "i don't want put any economic load on the town and i think", "is there anyone else who wishes to express to support and then we will turn to opposition", "my name is brian kemmer", "i live at two hundred and eighty three fitzmaurice circle which is the house immediately behind the proposed hotel from brighton street", "i've come to an agreement with the developer to provide shielding in the way of five shrubs between the landing and my property", "and i'd like that to be reflected in any special permit that is issued", "i have given some thought to the noise from the air conditioner on the roof", "i don't think it will be a problem at all", "the furnace is currently in the basement", "i do however have a concern that at some time in the future an hvac unit that could create noise could be put on the roof", "and the side setback to the building could be twenty feet but it's only two feet", "so i would request the permanent restriction be placed on any heating unit on the roof", "now the developer doesn't propose one at all", "there will be an hvac there at three hvac", "and i thought about those", "those will be as quiet as the two that i have at least ten feet from my bedroom window", "i'm not concerned about that", "and i don't think they'll cause any noise problems", "i would also request that construction not start until seven hundred and thirty am in the morning", "mr kemmer", "you realize you want to get anything", "i'm not giving you legal advice here but you might want to get anything in writing considering your property recorded at the registry of deeds or some sort of something on the deed of the restriction on the property", "i mean this really doesn't hold much weight", "can a permanent restriction be placed on the special permit for the building i would suggest talking to an attorney before you enter into some agreement", "i have and they thought that this might", "i don't know just a thought well i don't think it's a serious problem because there's no proposal to put a furnace on the roof", "no i'm talking about the trees", "that was definitely suggested by my attorney and i'm satisfied with it", "okay", "the restriction was only on a heating unit on the roof", "that's correct", "not a general hvac just heating that creates more noise", "and as i said that just won't be a problem", "is there anyone else wants to speak in support is there anyone who wants to speak in opposition okay", "thank you chairman smith", "my name is scott harper", "i'm not in a butter or a nearby neighbor of this development", "my interest arises out of my acquaintance with the athena mcginnis", "who's a close friend and church member of mine", "at congregational church who lives only four doors in a historic house", "i don't know the exact address", "i didn't come here tonight anticipating to speak to those but she has urged me over several weeks to come tomorrow night", "she was under the impression that the hearing on this was tomorrow night and support her opposition to what i'm", "my direct interest acknowledges from providing her rides to and from church on occasions where i utilize the that street for the traffic issues involved", "that's an extremely busy street", "it's always been a concern of myself and others at my church who provide ms mcginnis rides to and from church and assist or otherwise getting in and out of her driveway", "she currently does not drive herself", "although i think she is continues to be licensed but backing out of her driveway onto brighton street is extremely hazardous", "when i take her to and from i go slow pause in traffic and back into her driveway", "so i can pull out with good visibility of the north and south traffic on that street", "i suggested to her that perhaps this would actually be less of a bur the hotel would be less of a traffic burden than a convenience store because much of the traffic might be going right back to pleasant street and onto route two", "i don't know", "it sounds like you've already assessed some of those traffic impacts but i would just say that my concern directly would be concerning any traffic effects on the streets", "so thank you", "hi my name is diane mabardy", "i'm a long time long term resident of belmont diane mabardy", "i'm here my father is eighty four years old and unable to come out in the snow but and i was unable to come to the last meeting", "our issue with the property that's in question is that in belmont for this particular piece of property there is no special use allowed for an overnight stay", "so when you're talking about the business use and how you can think of this property being able to be used for an overnight stay you can't use it for a hospital", "you can't use it for an apartment building", "you can't use it for first senior center", "you can't use it for senior senior living", "you can't use it for a recreational facility", "you can't have an exercise facility and a restaurant needs a special permit", "so i'm trying to figure out how this property could even come up to be a hotel", "there is a problem with the transient business coming in", "there is no twenty four hour forprofit business in belmont", "so that is opening up belmont to a new avenue", "i mean if one hotel goes in it's if it's allowable in that area i don't believe that this is allowable", "he's in the business of construction in development", "he's in the business of building a hotel and selling it", "where here just we're just talking about project as proposed no i understand that sure", "so anyway so the problem is with that we'd find is that not as the project stands because we still do not believe that this hotel use is something that should be permitted", "this was first permitted back in the eighties when the manfredi's owned the property as a mixed use office retail that's what it was", "i was here", "i know the manfredi's and we went through that same process when they were building it because i lived in the house on the street behind it on fitzmaurice circle", "so our issue is the transient", "they don't even have enough parking for their employees and their visitors", "that means that the parking is now going to be the overflow is going to be on the residential streets", "i mean they have nineteen rooms they have eighteen parking spots", "they have staff they have maids they have cleaning people", "they have service people", "where are those people gonna park so we're just we're opposed to this project", "my name is antoine hayes", "i live on thirty eight plimith", "i'm a town meeting member precinct eight", "i have this delivered to you from athena mcginnis", "she asked me to deliver this to you", "okay thank you very much we'll pass it around", "i don't know if the applicant has seen this its just a", "potentially an expression of opposition we'll pass around", "and then we also received a letter this afternoon from miss claire stone expressing opposition", "and she noted that there was an earlier variant application", "i looked at the earlier variants decision from one thousand nine hundred and eighty three and i must admit it doesn't seem to me to bear on the issues here", "okay well if there's nobody else then", "just a quick comment first off we have we have not seen any of the opposition though any of the letters that are presented to you", "so we can't comment on those", "just a couple quick comments", "first of all as far as the overnight use regulations do permit it as an accessory use lodging and boarding for daily weekly or longer periods", "and that's allowed as a matter of right without a special permit", "insofar as the length of the stay under the mass law any stay over ninety days will trigger the cessation of any room tax being paid", "so the better way of saying it for the first ninety days and room taxes is due for it", "so i assume that it's contemplated that a ninety day stay is not a excessive length of stay under a hotel use", "we don't anticipate that in any event as mr columba said thirty is usually the maximum that they want to put a condition that says it can't be more than ninety days and any single tenant", "we wouldn't object to that", "so far as putting any other utilities on the roof", "i would suggest if we had to come back and alter the plan we'd have to come back before this board", "and for modification if we're going to put some other you know utilities or heating equipment and at that time it would be open to a public hearing for people to comment on", "it's not anticipated other than the three air conditioning units that there's going to be any other facilities you know on the roof", "but i've been doing this long enough to say never say never", "things change it but we would certainly want to come back before the board for last if any changes", "would you be willing to have a condition on that point subject to further board review in the event you wish to you you don't want an so what you're saying is i think you don't want an absolute prohibition on putting additional units it would be okay with coming having to come back here", "sorry just one other question before you wrap up with mr kemmer his agreement with respect to the you know request for screening i take it you don't have any problem with our making of condition", "i haven't seen that what was it it's reflected in the landscape plan already", "the landscape plan that we submitted for last meeting has those trees on it and we're fully committed to provide those and those on our property correct", "can i just can i just summarize what i heard and let me know if it's correct", "we heard opposition that said we should deny it because belmont has no overnight business kinds of models your rebuttal it sounds like is that people have as of right without a special permit the ability to rent anyway", "so clearly it's contemplated there", "and secondly there's that section five or something in the zoning ordinance that talks about parking for hotels which the implication of which is well must've been contemplated is that that's correct", "were there any rebuttal other rebuttal points besides those two on that issue no", "okay thank you", "thank you very much", "mr mercer i've got one more quick question real quick", "i want to make sure we lean heavily on the duration of an occupant", "if this hotel is not successful i don't want them to have permissions to go through some other type of occupancy without a permit", "if we put up thirty days or whatever you see the maximum occupancy of that it's going to tighten it down", "so if in fact the hotel is not successful with the rooms that are there", "then you've come back to your people to decide what you want to do with the building", "i don't want that to be cut off", "they'll be converting it into something else", "if there's a use permit which is specific to this use", "well when i think i think you could restrict it to the number of days of occupancy of anybody going in there", "so your position is we're on a slippery slope and past thirty days it starts to become with the fact that its an apartment building", "it could be in fact an apartment and particularly because it has kitchen facilities in to get other people coming in here living here permanently because they have no other place to live their rent to be adjusted accordingly", "we see a building now that is deteriorating because it was not successful for what it was built for", "i don't want to see that again particularly and allowing somebody to convert it into another use because they've already got these permits going through here so", "if they're going to change the use it needs to come back", "this would be specific to this year's", "but then but then you'll tighten the number of days now", "if we have a bad authority we can talk about it", "how many people are here in connection with this matter may i just ask that obviously a lot of other how many people are here for other matters i think we need to keep going", "okay the next matter is case number one thousand six hundred and four", "the application of randira ajar for a special permit under section thirty three of the zoning bylaw to operate a childcare large family at one hundred and twenty lewis road located in the general residence zoning district is the applicant here good evening chairman everybody", "i am shashira ajar randira is my wife and the daycare is named after her she is here presented", "we have this large daycare that is up to ten is the capacity operating on that side from two thousand and nine onwards", "so it's six years plus and we have been doing it", "nobody has gone so far to say that we had made a lot of noise or they have any kind of trouble", "this traffic issues commuter issues sometimes in the winter like last year was an exceptionally brutal winter", "a lot of snow we worked with a neighbor who expressed this thing that the bus should be allowed to come", "so we say we went everybody is went happy after that", "so there has been no concern about that in general terms", "so we have a good deal of space and plenty of light", "we have an excellent park in the back", "so we go to the park as often as we can", "and that also relieves the pressure on the backyard and some possible stress on the neighbors by way of noise because children are there they will play there", "so we use that park to the maximum extent and we live in the backyard in the fall we are required for one hour out outdoor time", "out of that we use no more than thirty minutes in the backyard", "and we do more than one hour in the park", "so we are taking every care to take care of the neighbors concern's needs on their position", "and any other thing that you will say that i should do we'll be happy to try it", "just a few a few questions", "first of all so do you and your wife live at one hundred and eighteen it's a two family home we live on both floors", "we keep one like more like a guest room also", "so there are two bedrooms", "there are not that many rooms on either floor", "so we live on board yes", "i just i just want to understand is i mean i understand it's one hundred and twenty is the proposed space for the childcare", "and is there anybody actually living in one hundred and twenty right now yes we live", "we have a kitchen we have office", "we live there sometimes sometimes we live upstairs", "when family comes", "do you have a license", "yeah we have license", "we have a license running from two thousand and six", "and at that time we were renting on concorde avenue", "so after three years from two thousand and nine to twelve we got licensed for this space this side", "and then again two thousand and twelve to two thousand and fifteen that was the period of license", "and the current license is from two thousand and fifteen to two thousand and eighteen", "it is at my place", "it is suppose to be displayed at the place", "and that is in the daycare", "why don't we have a copy of it i can send a copy but nobody said that we are supposed to do it", "that nobody said that i can do it i can send it tomorrow", "if there's a number there's a number of conditions that we assuming we were to grant it", "and we typically obviously to be granted a special permit the applicant which would be your wife needs to have the occ license", "and you are now as you're asking for an application for ten a large family daycare", "which means that you need to have an assistant", "is there anything yeah that is there last daycare is from two thousand and nine", "the only one", "my question is just right now when you understand that to have if you were to be granted a special permit so that you could keep operating you need to have not only one licensed person but you need to have an assistant", "and who you have who are your assistants you have them currently yeah we have one assistant", "where is the assistant assistant works eight to five", "who is she or he she is renulammy shanice", "she lives in water town about a mile from a mile and a half from our place", "and she works there", "does she have experience she has lots she's a grandmother", "she has worked for nepal she is a green card holder", "we have checked all those things diligently", "and she's a very good worker", "why is this case before us tonight we don't have the license", "we don't have any of the information that we need", "how can we make a decision on this tonight yeah well one thing we've been talking about doing is you're going to get make those lists of things that should be submitted because each of the ones that are before us tonight none of them have submitted the licenses which is an issue obviously", "so i think we just me and nick we were talking about this", "we're kind of wasting our time here because it doesn't have the license you know so we don't have a copy of the license", "we don't", "we couldn't grant the license if we wanted to there's no i don't think there's a floor plan", "we have presented pictures", "we had presented what salaries are paid that plan and", "yeah i mean we have in the past granted subject to the filing of licenses", "so that would be if we were to grant this one it would be a condition here", "so we should go back to the questions", "so you were looking you were looking for nine to five", "when did what is the first person dropped off and the last person picked up it is always about eight hundred and five to say five hundred and ten something like", "we closed the door at five hundred and twenty definitely not five hundred and fifty", "that's how late", "okay is the backyard fenced yes backyard is fenced", "and obviously there's a number of conditions that are usually imposed", "well first of all it's not a condition set", "the special permits personal to the applicant can't be transferred", "and it also we want to make sure that you've got in addition to the fencing and the backyard fire alarms smoke alarms", "this time it was renewed for a fourth time in august and department of early education and care people came and saw that", "so it it is there and we have a log", "we make a periodic check of the smoke and fire things", "we do a drill once a month we do those things", "and are there any children living at one hundred and eighteen or one hundred and twenty at this point any children living there under the ages of seven no", "okay any more questions board members is there anyone here to express support for this application is there anyone here to express opposition or concerns about this application my name is robert croix", "i live on stoltz road which is i'm not in a butter but in the direct neighborhood", "and so i'm concerned about what large means in terms of large daycare", "it means up to ten and including ten", "so it can't go over ten", "no that's the definition", "that's my concern is that could happen and get up to twenty", "cause there is traffic in the area and there was concerns about that", "thank you chairman my name is scott harper", "i live at ninety six lewis road which is about four houses down from one hundred and twenty from the applicant", "i so i'm not an immediate of butter", "i haven't i will note that during their current operation i'm not sure what the size of the operation is at present", "is it up to ten right now can anybody inform me of that i don't know you'll have to ask the applicant", "yes up to ten", "okay so this is for a renewal of the same level of existing use the addition here is that they had the state as i understand that they've had the state licenses for it they have not had a special permit", "which is why we are here tonight", "i think generally my yes", "right and i don't think my my own opinion and i have some familiarity with the larger daycare operation at plymouth congregational church", "i generally favor small neighborhood daycare", "so i think if they're well run it's more personal care", "it's a preferred alternative to transporting children longer distances to larger institutions", "my only and i think this one has been generally well run", "i have not experienced any noise issues", "i think it's a great location because it's only about a block and a half from an underutilized park", "and i think they do utilize that park for recreation of the children", "i haven't heard complaints from my neighbors about noise of the children disturbing them my only concern which i share with my wife and another neighbor at eighty eight lewis road kathy nelson and bill wilson or kathy johnson and bill wilson is is the issue of traffic", "i don't know if there's a way to restrict the number of cars there at any one time", "i know people's work schedules generally require that there'd be a flurry of dropoffs", "my wife who's a teacher at belmont in the belmont public schools is often leaving for work at about fivetoeight", "she has commented on a number of occasions about how when people drop off at this daycare they come up heading north on lewis road pull over to the left side facing oncoming traffic and unload children in the street", "and she has expressed some concern about that", "being a safety issue", "there are two on this property there are two spaces that are indented from the street a parking area", "i think if a restriction were passed that required that those not be utilized during the times by permanent parkers at the residence during the times of dropoff and pickup pickup", "and those two spaces would be available for people to pull in and discharge their children in a much safer manner", "additionally just an emphasis that people should be driving in the proper direction to pull over to that curb", "if there were three cars in front of that space dropping off at once that would be a total of five cars dropping off at once", "if the sidewalk and easement were maintained free of the leaves and snow people could drop off safely without extending into the street side", "lewis road is one block off of school street", "it is a frequent high speed cutthrough for people trying to avoid the light at school street that are going right at school street and belmont street", "so many people come up and if they see the light is red they'll take a left on lewis and go racing down several blocks down lewis", "is your suggestion that the essentially be required to drop off children only on the on the side of the sidewalk", "on the sidewalk side which is the side where the building or in the indented permanent parking space on the property", "and i think if that concern were addressed i think ten is a reasonable number of children", "and with that concern and maybe some staggered pickup times where they address their clientele's dropoff needs to restrict the number of cars that were there at any one time where you're i'd be supportive of the application", "thank you", "anyone else hi i'm yolanda lu and i own the two family house that is diagonal across from this daycare that's been operating without the special permit from the town for the last five or six years", "so i'd like to talk about two things", "number one the parking and traffic situation that is caused by the size of the operation and number two some real consequences of that that we've experienced in the last few years as well due to the traffic and parking situations", "so first of all i'm a working mother", "we know there are lots of you know dual working families in the neighborhood", "and so i've also investigated large family daycare centers", "most of them had more parking than what's available at this particular residence or this particular house", "yes they have an indentation there but most of the time it's parked by people who are operating the daycare", "maybe there's one slot for a car but when you think about how congested it is in the morning with the pickup and the dropoff you know there are cars on both sides", "it makes it very hard to back out when there's car's also driving through in commuting", "so most people choose not to park in the parking one parking space available", "that's not occupied by the operators of the daycare", "we're talking about a block between fairview and elm which are both high traffic roads completely occupied on both sides by two family houses", "so you're talking about most of those houses are also in tandem parking situations as well", "so you're talking about sixteen two family houses on an average size high density residential block", "okay and with you know people who are also leaving out from work coming in and out during the day during high traffic times", "so the situation here is you know we talk to some of the neighbors some of who weren't able to make it", "my mother who when she was living down the street had the situation where her car was actually backed into and hit by one of the customers of the daycare the neighbor right across from us right across from the daycare and next door to us also had his car hit", "the neighbors at one hundred and twelve and one hundred and fourteen told us that they've had their driveway blocked", "they've also had issues during the snow season that was mentioned by the operators where you know after shoveling out then they couldn't use the own space", "and then that created a situation for you know all the different cars having to you know do the shuffle you know back and forth you know in the driveways", "and so you know we feel that this is a problem that is not a future problem but one that's already experienced by the daycare that's operating for you know a good number of years and has not been solved yet", "and we don't see that they are making any attempt to solve that as well", "thank you", "thanks my other comment is that i think the fair way to assess the proper use of the one hundred and eighteen units is to ask from a tax perspective how much they claim as a business expense and how much they claim as a residential expense", "thank you", "any questions members okay we'll take it under advisement", "okay the next is a case number one thousand six hundred and five", "this is the application of byko akukwe for a special permit under section thirty three of the zoning bylaw to operate a family daycare home at one hundred and thirty seven sycamore street located in a general residence district", "hello hi i'm shaun", "i'm with byko her english isn't that well she speaks japanese mainly", "so we had to request a special permit for a daycare a license of ten", "this is an application for a family daycare home which is up to six secondly including six not ten", "six is fine", "let's see", "do you have a license that's good", "i'm going to explain about the license if i may we have asked the ec not to issue or renew any licenses unless they have proof that they do have a special permit from us", "so if we're going to ask for a license to be attached to that application that means we're going to ask them first to get their license there which is what we told them not to", "so i wanna know how we're going to proceed going forward", "i mean these two", "we're not trying to create a catch twenty two here", "and that seems to be the definition of it", "the thing i mean we're one of three municipalities i believe that do not require special permits", "and we asked eec to make an order tomorrow not to renew any any licenses before they clear with us that you know they have it so", "i don't know which way to go should i ask them for the license or not in this case i was told it's going to be just a home daycare not a large family", "i'm sure that's what the application is for", "that's what i prepared but maybe i misunderstood what they needed but usually i explain those things", "normally we got for these applications", "what the day looked like you know an agenda or an agenda of the day for you know what was going to go on during the day", "the times the dropoffs", "and pickups a picture of the layout itself or the layout what the backyard looked like", "excuse me yeah but normally what we got was all of that", "and usually before this got a copy of the license as well now we don't get a copy of the license", "i'm just asking which way to go", "it sounds to me like this should be an offline discussion we need we certainly need to have a a summary of what is needed for each of these applications", "but here i think let me just so you've got if if we were to grant it we obviously would ask you and you'd have to file a copy of the license with the board", "let's see here i just want to ask some questions", "so you were looking for an application up to and including six you've got the license", "do you have any assistants not that you do", "do they have a license from the occ yes", "and the play area outside is it fenced i'm not quite the area down in the back okay and how do you get from the inside of the house to that fenced area in the back from the front entrance go around the driveway", "and we have a kids playing sign okay i noticed that there was a railing missing and the sign there was no fence", "oh you talking about wind just took that down", "on the far side the wind yeah that's what i was guessing okay", "so you got the fenced area", "so what hours are you looking would you plan on operating eight to six", "so that'd be the dropoffs would be within the eight to six right you're not having people drop pick up after six", "and you understand that we usually have a bunch of conditions which i've already mentioned so i'm not gonna go through them again but it'd be personal to you and condition smoke detectors things of that sort", "members any questions", "okay", "these two modes of ingress just ask him i don't know", "are there supposed to be two modes of ingress we have two points of ingress we do", "we actually had three but one right now the railing fell off the on the back steps", "so we're not using that one we're using the other one that comes out to the back", "you've got a front door and then what was the third we have one that goes straight out the back and then we have one that goes down then the stairs to the back the other back", "are there any other questions is there anyone here to speak in support this application is there anyone here to speak in opposition to express concern about the application thank you we'll take that under advisement", "okay the next case number is one thousand six hundred and six which is the application of a marybell coveragall", "did i get that right for a special permit under section thirty three of the zoning bylaw to operate a family daycare home at one hundred and fifty five beach street located in a general residence district", "is the applicant here if the applicant's not here it's a first", "i guess i would just suggest is there anybody here who wants to speak to in support of or in opposition to the center is there anyone else here for this application concerning one hundred and fifty five beach street in that case i'd suggest we just continue it to find out if they want to appear next time they can appear next time", "otherwise we'll just dismiss this", "a vote to continue this one to the next meeting second", "general notion seconded all in favor", "and i feel just notify the applicants", "yeah they need to be here", "on this case then you're recusing yourself", "we've only got four members we won't have a quorum on it", "you've got a quorum but i think you have to ask them whether they want to proceed or not", "i'm recusing myself with the next application so", "there's nothing special", "the next case in case number one thousand six hundred and seven the applicant is seeking a special permit at twenty one jason road", "the applicant is robert c ketchum and is seeking a special permit under section fifteen of the zoning bylaw to construct a onestorey rear addition minimum required rear setback is two thousand eight hundred and thirty six", "existing is two hundred and thirty eight and proposes one hundred and seventy five at twenty one jason road located in a single residency zoning district is mr ketchum here okay why don't you mr ketchum we only have four members eric had to recuse himself", "so that means that in order for you to prevail on the special permit you would have to have the votes of all of the members you have either the option of i think we prefer to come back if we can", "unless mr smith will recuse himself again", "normally we have three other board members at a minimum", "so you'd like to continue it to the next meeting yes", "okay do i have a motion do i have a second all those in favor", "thank you", "john second john", "all right does anyone want to get eric where is eric how'd i do as a chairman i was pretty good", "okay", "i did well eric", "very quick", "i made you proud", "so why don't we just take these in the order that we've heard them", "so the first will be", "case number one thousand six hundred and three seventy four goden street", "the concern that was expressed on the we're just going to sit on this one", "well there's five of us here and nick and tino both watched the tape", "so i guess it would the five of us who set okay so", "this was one where they the concern was expressed last time principally about the lot coverage which i think was they've adjusted that by removing the garage and therefore the lot coverage is now reducing and otherwise the application is more or less the same other than the kicking out the back two feet", "does anybody have any concerns over this one nope", "okay in that case i entertain a motion to approve", "make a motion", "anyone who wishes to approve james seconds", "all in favor", "jim seconded nick moved", "who would like to write this one john john mcmanus will write", "okay the next is case number one thousand five hundred and forty four and which is three hundred and thirty four pleasant street", "and on this one again the five of us are present", "nick and tino have filed the prerequisite of the certification having watched the videotapes and john has been here for all of them live", "i've been here for all the time", "and so as jim so it will be the five of us who vote", "it seems to me there's sort of two questions here", "the first is whether this is a something that can be granted at all", "and then if it is if it were to be granted should it be granted with certain conditions", "it just sort of seems to me those are worthwhile addressing separately", "so i'll just kick it off by saying that i i don't think this is a something that we can approve under the bylaw", "the context being that neither lodging nor hotel is a described use in section thirty three the closest that i can see in the schedule thirty three chosen analogous uses would be other apartment house which is defined as a dwelling", "containing no fewer than five dwelling units but that use is actually prohibited in lb3 districts and most other districts in the town lodging and boarding is permitted as a use in lb3 but it's permitted only as an accessory use which requires that to be a principal residential use so that doesn't apply here", "and even if they were applicable it concerns rental with not more than three rooms without separate cooking facilities", "so as the applicant said they're relying on section thirty two which is a use not classifiable under any listed category which could be allowed can be allowed only by special permit from the board of appeals upon the board's determination that the use is similar in its impact on the neighborhood the environments and the town to a use which is permitted to roll out on special permit", "and also that the sub section seventy three special permit criteria test is met", "i don't see any permitted use that similar in its impact to a hotel", "the notice suggests that the similar use might be other retail sales and services but lodging i think is different from sales", "renting rooms is not selling in the retail sales sense", "and here we've got it's an overnight use which is an activity which is not otherwise permitted in the town generally", "so i don't see anything analogous and i don't think that it falls within the bylaw", "and this is in my view a situation where if it's be permitted i think town meeting would need to decide it would be a permitted use", "it just needs to be a hotel is not something that was inadvertently admitted from the scheduled uses although i acknowledge that section five hundred and twelve does contain a sort of mysterious free floating mention of hotels in the context of discussing parking spaces", "does anybody else have any thoughts on that issue i mean that i would reason that way except for that straight piece of legislation that talks about hotel in the context of parking", "i mean it's very odd that that exists but there's nothing in the table in any of those columns in the table that talks about where these hotels are allowed", "so given that i would just classify them under other retail sales and services the reasoning being that well it is a service providing a room even", "i mean there's no sale of goods but there's that service", "so otherwise how do you reconcile that stray hotel you mentioned in the parking rule well it seems to me that section thirty three is where uses are allowed", "and i think that the the five hundred and twelve references are frankly speaking in error", "they were drafting and drafting and they were revising the parking permits and lifting it from some other channels bylaw", "but i just think it seems to me that i appreciate others using this but it just seems to me that thirty three is where you would put a use and a hotel is such a distinctive kind of use that if it were contemplating being permitted it would have been mentioned", "i agree with you eric", "yeah the airbnb", "i think if you push that to the back to the planning and i know it's on the agenda is something that we move in that direction", "yeah i mean it seems to me that if it were if belmont is going to have hotels i think town meetings should say that we can have hotels", "it just seems to me for us to provide a hotel allow a hotel as other retail sales and services is stretching the bylaw beyond it's", "and only because it's an overnight thing", "i mean in terms yes", "you know this is i would say that it's lodging", "it's overnight which is something different for anything else", "and i don't think lodging is a retail service and especially in the context of the most analogous use in my view which is the apartment use that have been here for longer periods of time being prohibited", "there's also the fundamental logical inconsistency with the fact that in the context of this hotel longterm you state tendency is bad whereas in the context of airbnbs and that sort of thing it's the opposite it's hard to sort of intellectually reconcile those two theories", "what would you call a retail service things like a dentist a well the definition", "do we have a definition for that yeah section fourteen it talks about butler retail sales and services as an establishment primarily engaged in the retail sale of goods services and or products including baked products ice cream and or candy for consumption offsite with no additional seating provided onsite such uses may include incidental food service", "i mean i think it sounds like many of the stores in downtown belmont but it doesn't sound like so it sounds like the service of providing food is an example they gave", "i thought it would be like hair salon manicure pedicure and massage therapy or those which is like a service", "right so if right my view is if we if this is where i'm hung up if this is what we this is our collective view then we don't need to reach the question of whether or not it should be allowed conditions to vote", "so the theory is that reference to parking in section five is just that it's so weird to have parking for a hotel and then in the place where the uses are dismiss it", "we entertained that warehouse and turned it down for", "the one on holt street", "the one with the lot shaped like a t", "so you can turn it down it was a grandfathered figure type of use of building", "whereas here it's a new use", "i hate to see that lot unimprove", "cause i consider it to be unimproved right now and the lot across the street from it as well", "and i really don't i mean i was in the neighborhood to see the crescent and i drove by there and i went back and parking i didn't see a car back there", "i'm not saying that nobody goes to your hotel i'm just suggesting that traffic is not what one might think it might be in that area", "so i would hope to believe that there would be some prac in this poorly put together document here and i would say yeah we can allow that to be an improvement which i think would benefit the neighbors", "what does that where is that parking is that fifty two or something five hundred and twelve", "and is it something that we approve and then kick to the planning board and say they'll fix it well what's the timeline for the turnout a year and on top of that if we do vote and it goes either way i mean if it goes the wrong way for the applicant does that mean they're it's two years out before they can do anything again well you know no i mean it seems to me that if we were to vote on this ground high and town meeting were to say the hotels permitted and the planning board to amend the bylaws then obviously that would not be you know kind of two year commitment", "the minute that bylaw became effective it would be right back here", "yeah i know i must say i think the applicant did a great deal of work on this application", "it shows and know obviously this if we were to grant it i would certainly propose a number of conditions but it seems to me that i just can't get to the point of reaching", "so should we have a vote on this preliminary issue and then if it if this preliminary issue is an obstacle then we end here and if it's not an obstacle then we proceed to decide", "the table's in thirty three", "what would be whether we should consider it the vote would be i guess to deny the ground that the hotel use is not contemplated by the bylaw", "and they would continue on with the case then that would be a denial", "and they would have if they wanted to go and ask and recommended change they put it in the case with if we were to go with it that way then the case would end there", "so i would allow the case", "and i would be allowed we then move on to consideration with the application i take that back", "the proposed motions this is one of those negative motions", "this would be a motion to deny", "so an aye is to deny", "and an ney is to proceed right and the ney is to proceed so", "do i hear a motion to deny the application as a hotel use is not contemplated by bylaw", "we've got a motion by john did i hear a second second", "nick seconds", "so with an aye is to deny", "so all in favor say aye", "so we've got one two three all opposed yeah it needs to go to the planning board", "okay so we have a vote of three in favor of denial", "two opposed", "so three in favor of denying", "yeah that's what i'm trying to figure out", "to grant a special permit requires affirmative relief of four", "john you made the motion to deny correct yup", "oh you voted against your motion just making sure i got this right", "obviously if there's three in favor of denial then that is that fails to meet because you're going to need four to get affirmative relief", "so in that case i think the vote of three in favor of denial carries the vote", "i really wanted a hotel", "i don't like having house guests", "can you reiterate the regulation here about how we vote on these statute says you granting you grant affirmative relief", "and you need affirmative relief to be granted a special permit", "you need a vote of four out of on a five person board", "it's four out of any number isn't it it's not like only well if only four were sitting there", "you'd still need four affirmative votes", "but if you have ten sitting four would be enough", "we only sit in five only five people vote on any application", "but it requires four four affirmative votes to get it it's in chapter forty eight section we voted to deny and didn't pass it", "and that would suggest denying it doesn't pass", "but either way even if we went the other way it still wouldn't be enough votes", "so if i make a motion to approve you and i are yes they're going to say no it's three to two right let's say it's to say it's the same thing", "there's too many attorneys sitting at this table", "tino were you yes or no on the motion to deny on the grounds that it's just not in the bylaws a yes reluctantly", "all right if no one else wants to write it i'll write it", "i'll write it sounds like a fun one to write", "okay so tino is going to write it", "thank you", "okay now we got to keep moving", "okay", "the first one is we're not moving onto case number one thousand six hundred and four which is the application for the large family daycare at one hundred and twenty lewis road", "they left", "they left okay", "now i understand why they don't have the license cause its too i have prepared the list", "i just hadn't send it off because i don't have all the cases covered", "i have four out of like six but i think that we still have a different list and this is one of them", "i go over the for the licenses", "i have always asked them for the floor plan for pictures for their hours everything has been asked", "they didn't provide it it is not for me", "i mean it's not my fault that i haven't mentioned it", "can we please get a copy of the licenses even if it was a previous before they applied", "so at least we have some references", "if they're an existing operation it would be helpful to have them", "we always had on an application", "well we had a license floor plan a picture of the backyard", "and then we had not the agenda but hours the curriculum like you know and it was always nice to see all of that and the assistant", "and i think the assistant doesn't the assistant have to be licensed yeah", "right yeah", "i'll check what i have before the end of the week for the review", "and remember one we had where an area wasn't didn't have trees i have to do that decision actually", "if the trees weren't we made her put trees in on the corner there up in belmont", "so you always look for a way that kids can escape from the backyard we don't want to do it that way", "so that's why we want the picture of the backyard so", "i'll send you what i have just add to it", "then we'll discuss it next time when it comes to that", "this one in terms of in terms of what they should be submitted yes", "this one is i think is somewhat different though because i mean obviously there was some some genuine concerns about drop off and traffic", "and now it seems to me that this was a situation where i've walked by it and looked at it and there are things they could do", "if one we can obviously stagger which is something we would want to condition", "and we could also say drop off only on the on the side of the street where they are on the righthand side you know so that there you don't have people dropping off on the far side of the street crossing", "and then we could also say that the the applicant i mean i heard the point about the applicant apparently parking in front of the house which is where people would want to drop off", "the reason for this is that the driveway is not really a usable driveway", "if you look at it there's a stairway that goes in so they can't actually drive up the driveway", "so one hundred and twenty lewis how close is it to the main road on the bottom that's where we're at what's that yes what is that's far", "it's between it's between fairview and elm", "so how close to fairview is it", "it's at the far end from fairview it's near it's near elm", "they're very narrow dropoffs and pickups must be very difficult", "what happens is they basically line up the block there are eight houses on both sides sixteen families they're all two family houses each family has two cars", "so there has to be people who live there", "usually one person is parking out front", "so there has to be usually one person", "so you staggered the sta they have to be on the same side as the traffic goes and then if its written we're not going to have the guys at seven hundred and thirty in the morning there just people live on that side of the road unfortunately", "review on this so if we hear from the neighbors of the numb leaving to the conditions", "a six month review it seems to it's i was definitely going it seems to me that we have to try to if we're going to grant it we impose those things you know staggering dropoffs drop off only on the side of the street adjacent to two hundred and eighteen one hundred and twenty", "and that if if you're living there the occupants shouldn't be parked in your front", "and of course i can't preclude other people's parking so we'll do a fix", "and then a review after six months or a year", "i'd say i'd say a year", "we need to know that would give us enough time", "and if we hear complaints then they know they've got a problem", "the whole office it's not going to have the time to go there every morning to see like if it complies or not what i will need from neighbors will keep the record", "cars being here you know driveways being blocked stuff like that", "do you want to do you want a shorter review period i mean i don't", "i'm concerned about it as well but i just well we could just deny the permit", "based on that and all those complaints", "i think that the fact that there wasn't police before is now they have a reason to pay a little bit more attention", "yeah so if after a year we have a lot of these complaints then then they're going to have a problem", "okay", "is that in addition to the consideration the fact that there might be a suspicion that one hundred and eighteen unit is and not actually a residence yeah i mean that is i i did think about that issue and it seems to me that i think the point of those residents obviously they don't want purely commercial properties but where you have people living in the same building", "i mean a lot of people", "i know people that had two families who've made it into one family", "i mean so on if they're living in the same building i think you might that would be acceptable", "obviously they could not you know move someplace else rent out the upper floor and then continue to use the lower floor as a that would be a problem", "what about the license so we're going to consider all of this without a license well just said that they don't require the license for application because they have to have the special permit", "the first thing i'll do tomorrow ask them to make sure they have it i'll copy nick", "if he's going to make the decision to have just a note to say that you know presented the following day or", "we can do we condition it on submission of the license in this case since this is a large family they have to submit license for the assistant as well", "so you've got two licenses and then they've", "you have the usual conditions in addition to the ones we just discussed", "and then the hours are eight to five", "those aren't normal hours though", "usually it's earlier usually it's earlier hours", "what about waking up at seven hundred and thirty", "but i think i think that i asked them that question actually", "and they said that the eight was fine but they said five hundred and twenty was quite awful they closed the door", "so it probably should be a five hundred and thirty", "yeah five hundred and thirty but normally it's the eight o'clock hours aren't what normally people do", "and as i recall when i was doing it was normally like the sevensfifteens and the 730's is like the eight o'clock is when you're hitting the school traffic", "yeah but that's that's what they ask", "don't want give them more", "so the space that's used as a daycare nobody lives there it's just", "the testimony was equivocal shall we say so he lives with he lives in a two family and the other floor is unclear", "if i may initially we send them the letter that you know they need a special permit", "they sent us back a letter saying that you know they live on one floor and the other floor was totally available for the daycare", "and we told them that's not what the bylaw says", "you need to live in the house", "otherwise it would be a daycare for which you need to have handicap accessibility ramp", "it's a it's the business which is allowed but they need to do the modeling for like a hundred thousand dollars to add bathrooms and everything else", "so they sent me another letter saying that no they do live in both units", "we have them all i mean that's why i included everything we have", "and well when they said like they live in both i couldn't say you can't apply anymore", "so they're applying as if they do live in the house that is what they said", "it just seems like quibbling", "that seems a little too family", "in my view because so long as they're living in the building it shouldn't be an issue", "and there's only one other space and that's dedicated to the daycare", "but if they were living someplace else that would be a different story", "that would not be right so this is a case where they're in the same building", "they're saying they're living in the unit", "otherwise we can't issue them this permit", "as a building code unless they're living in the house occupying the house it would be a daycare as a commercial use which needs handicap accessibility handicap bathrooms lifts elevators the whole nine yards", "this is because they're living in the houses", "why eec gives them the permit for a large family daycare because they live in the house", "that's how they're allowed to by the building code by the eec", "so this is a building code issue", "correct so the minute they said like you know we don't live in the house totally changes the character of the daycare into a commercial daycare which still they're allowed to by zoning", "it's the building code now you know forces them to take more measures like twenty four sycamore street is coming rather than not going to come in for parking now you're kind of on a slippery slope because what it puts a triple decker but he's saying that it's not", "maybe its not isn't a zoning issue", "he's saying it's a building code issue", "in other words if there's nobody living in the unit i mean we can still grant a special permit for it but they would have to do additional things to it", "well it is a zoning issue because i think if isn't there a definition of family daycare that says that it says in a residential property if i recall correctly so", "for a two family strictly for a single but for a two family strictly they're living there", "so if even the sleep down there like you know once a week or just cook something in that kitchen they're not living there we're not going to go", "monitor that", "keeping the back door open from upstairs and downstairs", "so no one bothered by this no", "so do i hear and we obviously just discussed a number of conditions", "don't hear a motion to approve subject to those conditions i make a motion to approve subject to the conditions that we discussed", "i'll second", "so nick moves subject conditions are approved", "all in favor you got the same name without okay", "okay", "i have a question", "may i ask a question sure", "this property where they have a business a daycare they pay the same amount of taxes i don't know", "they come from another town using the park using the roads", "they're not coming from another town", "they're living there they're just living upstairs", "i think he was talking about is that what you mean yeah", "okay i don't know", "i don't know the answer to your question", "all right so the next one so do i", "don't go down that road", "fair as long as you're registered with the town of belmont", "okay so then we've got a number one thousand six hundred and five which is one hundred and thirty seven sycamore street", "is this license going to be issued to this young lady the young lady", "yes the applicant", "it's personal to her and it's obviously i just need her to submit her occ license", "she says she has an assistant", "i just need the assistant's license as well", "they've got a fence the hours were eight to six requested", "other than that i'll give you conditions", "i'm going to write all the daycare ones", "i'm going to just blow em all up", "truly appreciate it", "i own three", "i'm going to do another three", "all right", "he has a template for these eric", "i do there is one with all conditions but we're going to have one for applications too", "so you're going to ask her for a license too yes", "yes", "and we'll have staggered drop offs because sycamore is as bad as any street very busy street", "even though it's at least a little wider and wider", "but there's about ten or fifteen there's at least ten maybe twenty daycares on sycamore and the surrounding streets", "no it does work staggered", "and also there was one person who had a circular driveway that we made them block off their circular driveway on sycamore", "so she couldn't use it so that it wouldn't be like the speedway over there on sycamore", "but if it works it works", "does anybody have any concerns about the one hundred and thirty seven sycamore application where there was just one", "the only thing i had was is is this going to be an all japanese school it wasn't a concern but everything's written in japanese", "it seems to be quite likely i don't know", "i'll sign up and let you know", "well sign up i just didn't know", "i was just curious", "i meant to ask because i was just wondering looking at this", "yeah no i understand that", "it doesn't matter to me", "when someone showed up in the past and it was called the montessori school", "i think it doesn't matter to me", "and this to me is not a floor plan for a daycare", "this is somebody took a pencil and wrote out a floor plan we need a regular floor plan", "no but something more than don't you agree because we'd have to have how to get in how to get out the fire situation or am i wrong are we i mean we didn't ask", "we agreed that it didn't have to be professionally drawn but how does fire how does the fire department look at it don't they have to present something to fire this is a single house up to six kids", "it's considered to be a safe like a family kind of", "i mean you won't question a family with six kids or like three kids five", "since the maximum occupancy is less than fifteen which is like even like with the large families anything less than fifteen is sufficient", "but if i go to the fire department what do i give the fire department to show them it as a single house", "they'll just take it as a single house", "we've asked them to inspect the smoke detectors", "i'll make a motion to approve the special permit", "i'll second", "all in favor", "that's all", "five0", "that was five in favor", "so that one was a fifty", "that wasn't we didn't have a no no", "okay", "so what do we just continue with this one yeah", "and the other two were oh the person who didn't come didn't show up yet", "we've already continued that and then the other ones", "just write it anyway", "and then we've got the minutes that were circulated we probably should make some edits to them", "were there any issues on the minutes there were the minutes of correct the revision of the two was corrected", "i'll make a motion to approve the minutes of december 7th two thousand and fifteen february 1st two thousand and sixteen and march 7th two thousand and sixteen", "ill second", "with the changes of eric and craig", "we don't require a special engineer to do all this", "shaun you did changes", "didn't you mind one", "with john's changes", "so we followed the changes motion to approve", "i'll second a minor formal problem", "i can't really vote on the march 7th", "cause i wasn't here", "yes you can", "you've watched it", "oh yeah good point", "okay so all in favor", "opposed no the second was your john you were", "okay motion to be adjourned", "all in favor", "thank you all"], "name": 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6016, 1499, 6009, 10435, 8234, 4249, 8620, 2450, 5333, 5717, 16490, 5950, 5494, 4966, 4400, 1803, 1863, 9319, 9579], "label": ["first item of order", "approval of minutes", "any corrections deletions substitutions or otherwise make a motion to approve", "second", "okay moved by archie second by ed", "all in favor ay", "okay we have any public testimony on any agenda items see none move on", "new member orientation", "did you guys review the manuals that's why other boats down here", "we need you guys to recite section", "thanks edwin", "okay is there anything else that corporation council needs to go over with the new members usually do a quick presentation", "when do you do that now", "okay", "thank you chair", "welcome sir kennison sir lundberg apologize for not being here last month", "i gave you guys a packet a little while ago", "there's a few little handouts in there", "the first one new board of commission member orientation", "oh sorry if any of the other members want another packet i can get you one i just don't carry them with me", "so let jill know and she can let me know", "so if you just want to go over this the new member and new board and commission member orientation packet", "just kind of goes over some generally general frequently asked questions", "if you have any questions feel free to contact myself or jill and jill can get in touch with me", "the next bigger one is a guide to the sunshine law", "it's produced by the state of hawaii office of information practices", "there's a lot of details in the sunshine law", "so in my presentations i generally don't get into hypotheticals of if this then that you know", "it's more as topics come up i'm typically at these meetings so please ask if you have any questions", "generally speaking i request that it's a selfpolicing policy so all i ask is try not to talk about board business with other board members outside of board meetings", "you can talk about stuff with members of the public not board members", "anybody can talk about board business with it", "but between board members we ask that all those communications happen in a meeting down to emails and everything", "if you're gonna have to email the group please run it through board secretary and please do not reply to those emails to the whole group", "they will just be collected by the board secretary", "there's other intricate things i believe there's discussion to go into a sub committees and all that", "when the matters come up we'll go into that in more detail at that time", "but generally speaking please keep board business discussions at board meetings between board members", "the next packet is it's a article or you know i'm not sure what you want to call it", "but it's written by professor van dyke", "it's kind of a breakdown", "it's a different way to read the sunshine law", "it's kinda dated at this point but the information still holds true", "the next one is the chapter two hundred and fifty six maui county code of ethics", "if you have any questions on that please let us know", "the next one is article ten of the charter the code of ethics", "again if you have any questions on that please let us know but essentially there's a few prohibitions", "to me it comes down to more you guys are all professionals very well respected people in the community", "try not to do things that are conflicts of interest or improper", "and if you do believe you have a conflict of interest or something in the code of ethics there's a question", "we'll probably refer you to try and get an advisor opinion from the board of ethics", "so that's my presentation in a nutshell", "i know both of you gentlemen have been on many commissions before but if you have any questions", "thank your chair", "yeah i don't know who's chair right now but", "just like i know both of you guys have been on many commissions before so you kinda know the drill", "our chair has arrived so i am relieved", "thank you vice chair you're on time", "so lets move on to item number six my emergency management", "hi good morning so you have in front of you our monthly report", "just a few items we had received our staff specialist three list and we actually were able to conduct interviews yesterday and we're hoping to make an offer to one of the candidates that we interviewed for that position", "so we'll be full staff if that person takes the position", "as far as training and exercises we finished our eoc basic training for our partners so that was over about a five week period where they were coming in on mondays to do that and now we're moving on into hurricane preparedness for community things", "there was a zeta tabletop exercise which seems a little bit odd because the focus has kind of moved away from zeta but as we're getting into the season again where mosquitoes and high travel we had that particular exercise", "on the preparedness side our harp program is continuing in west maui", "they've been very successful in terms of good turnout", "we've had a lot of repeat personnel", "we weren't sure if the people would come to each meeting every month but we've seen a steady participation in that", "and after this month which is tropical cyclone they move away from hazard awareness into actual planning", "so we'll see how many people start to come out for the planning piece of it which is more pencil to the paper kind of stuff", "i'll just move down to the response piece", "the emergent", "event i guess we'll call it that we've been involved in is the rat lung worm disease", "a lot of times people forget that we also are participating with the department of health during those types of events", "so really we're just we're not the lead on that department of health always remains the lead on that", "but we continue to support in terms of coordination and especially with their messaging piece of it", "if you have any questions on the report i'm happy to take those otherwise i'll move into the piece that commissioner john kyle asked about last week or last month with the activation levels", "questions okay", "you have two handouts in front of you", "the first one nice bright color coded one is our eoc activation levels", "we used to just have three but then fema and the national incident management system had recommended a four tier", "which was very much similar to what we had", "we just didn't have our day to day operations on there which is level four", "so you can see it starts at level four normal operations steady state so that's today", "it's blue because we call it blue sky day", "you know it's just a nice day", "we're always monitoring for things that might happen with a no notice event", "so the eoc is not staffed at that time", "the number three enhanced steady state is something has come up that maybe requires us to pay attention to it a little bit more", "we don't have the eoc staffed really at that point but our standby person who is on call or on standby throughout the evening hours and off hours is monitoring that actively looking at notifications from the weather service or whatever event it might be", "a level two is a partial activation", "that's the most common thing that we have after a level three", "that's when we have some of our partners in", "it maybe is a event that's focused on a specific geographic area it's not island or county wide", "so we'll have the emergency support functions in who would be affected by that particular event", "and then a level one activation is a full activation", "we have all of our county partners and state and other partners in", "staffing all of the emergency support functions in anticipation of something that we know is coming", "or it's happening or occurring as we are speaking and the response and recovery's going to require additional resources than just one or two particular agencies", "the next page i just made a quick kind of at a glance", "there are some events that automatically trigger a certain activation level", "and that's what you see on that chart there", "so with a tropical cyclone when the forecast or advisories are issued again we see that coming", "so it starts out with just our staff and maybe we've made a notification for people who have something in their day to day operations that they would do", "then as it escalates from watch to warning you'll see that activation level then scales up to a two and a one", "the one that is most", "i'll say difficult to", "maybe difficult's not the right word", "the one that's the most fluid probably is a flood scenario because a flood watch will come out and it'll be maybe county wide and so we know there's potential for heavy rains etcetera", "and then when they issue an advisory that means that heavy rains are occurring in a certain area and flooding may be imminent", "but then when it goes to a warning level it's more than just nuisance flooding", "so the advisory is what they call nuisance flooding", "so there will be flooding and ponding on the roads but it's not getting into peoples homes", "its not endangering life so much as it is maybe properties but not at a higher level", "so when we go to a warning our staff automatically goes into the eoc", "because during a warning for a flood it goes from nothing to something pretty quickly", "so again we've already been in contact with our partners", "they obviously know it's raining outside", "but as we're monitoring the situation and just in contact with our partners that call of when to for the standby eoc person to call the other partners is a judgment call i'll say", "and that's the one i think that is the most fluid as far as warning doesn't automatically bring in the other partners", "and then things that are a no notice event like an earthquake or a mass casualty they happen when they happen and then that's an automatic eoc activation level", "charles did that answer your question yes it answers a lot of questions but i still have a few questions", "sure", "now as far as districts and notification and actions they take lanai molokai lahaina", "now at what point do you recommend that they take action or measures to prepare for a storm so those are the same as what we do here on this island so its a county wide notification", "its the other ones like the flood again that it's happening strictly in a specific district", "those are the ones that are a little bit more challenging for us but i would recommend similar to what we have here", "and i can talk we still haven't been able to hire our part time person in those districts", "but that person would be the one that would staff and activate either by themself or with partners in those eoc's", "okay well i guess what i'm looking at is let's say a storm is coming in and there's certain measures that district supervisors for the public works can take", "so i guess what's the trigger point for their activation or recommendation from you to the public works to start preparing so those would usually start happening at a watch level and those at the eoc we're not we're recommending for the departments to activate their own plan", "so public works has their own triggers for that and they match up with ours", "so when we call a watch that's why too we're always in consultation with the weather service when they're gonna make that call", "because it does trigger actions in departmental emergency plans", "is there a standard as far as measures that can be taken once they get a trigger point for example you know of course molokai for example steven arcy used to start filling up his trucks start staging them in critical areas", "is there a standard that you know that the public works takes yeah same thing", "okay", "both for tsunami and tropical cyclones a watch triggers actions by each of those departments", "and is it basically a standard plan or every district supervisor has their own plan and are others aware of that plan it's a standard plan department wide so public works has their plan when we go into one of these levels", "i can't speak to their personnel as far as how well they know their internal plan", "my next question would be as far as the utility companies that are very important what's your dialogue with them as far as their notifications cause they can take the same precautionary measures too that they you know there's points where water departments they'll shut down you know they'll lock down", "as far as dialogue with them where are you or when does that happen sure so the way we have the eoc staffed now in our operations section we have three branches", "and one of the branches is infrastructure", "and the meco department of water supply with the county the telephone company", "so our public and private utilities are part of infrastructure branch", "so they're called in and they're on our call list", "okay they are yup they're part of our", "all the water departments all the private guys they all come in no not all the private water guys come in", "they have a liaison because we don't have that much room so when we notify them they notify i know there's some partnerships like maui yes yes", "okay so they have a representative that attends something they have one that represents private water yes", "thank you", "you're welcome", "travis would you be interested in that part time position i know keep your eyes out when it comes open", "i had a question it goes back to the rat lung worm disease", "oh ah huh", "is there a known hot spot of the origin of the disease itself here on maui or in general in general is there a place where the rats have the disease and that's why its coming out of that area or do they know not that i'm aware of i mean here it's been we've been seeing it obviously in east maui but", "i know on the big island it was linked to a cow heart and a slug in there right well that was just that particular incident but they've had rat lung worm on the big island for a long time already", "and i think when they started to do some more research there's been individual instances on the other in the other counties as well", "but the key for us again is cause we've seen a little bit of panic with that particular disease", "where people are not buying local produce and we just want to stress that it's not that you cannot buy the local produce", "it comes down to the consumers", "the farmers are doing what they can and then the intermediary is doing what they can to make sure that it's clean and safe", "but as a consumer it's up to us also to make sure that we're washing it", "and that's all it takes is washing it properly", "it doesn't even take you know those special things that they're selling at the store those sprays and things like that", "if you take the time and wash your produce and it's not just we should tell folks all produce", "and so that's kind of the slogan that we're working on is wash all produce all the time", "even if it says prewashed even if it's from the mainland cause they have other things in their produce too sometimes", "so it's just a habit that we need to retrain ourselves on as a community is wash all produce all the time", "any more questions thank you ann", "thank you", "let us now move on to item number seven fire department", "aloha good morning members before you you have our monthly highlights for the month of april", "okay does your team need any questions as before we move forward but at any point in time as we go through each item you are welcome to ask questions", "all right item 7a the department highlights for motions and interviews", "if you see there we have gone through the process of going through our recruit trainees", "we did a performance agility tests at the end of march", "and we qualified some people for our openings that we have", "we currently have seventeen openings and we will be starting that class july first of this year", "we wanted to do it in march excuse me in may but we did not have the funding to move forward so it moves us back", "the average recruit class lasts six and a half months so that pushes us into january of two thousand and eighteen", "our projected retirements are twenty for this year", "we had five thus far so we anticipate fifteen more", "so that might cause us a shortage issue of going towards the end of the year", "and that's something that we try to have discussions with council and the mayor's office", "chief yes", "would you describe a little bit more about what you said when you didn't have the funds okay you had to delay the training class because you didn't have funds yes so our department ran into a shortage somewhere around november of two thousand and sixteen and as we move forward to move around funding from different programs to make it project it til june 30th we came with a short fall of twelve million moving forward in payroll and what have you", "so in those areas we utilized overtime for our training instructors to come in and help with the process of the recruit class", "and so that was an issue and a topic and we did not have the funding to pay for the recruits during this fiscal year", "so that's where the shortages are and have you thought about going back to county council asking for a special assessment we did and", "sorry for pulling you into this", "no so we provided the information for them and no money was added to our budget for this fiscal year to handle it", "but there was a lengthy discussion about it", "your a million and a half short roughly", "and what will that grow by the end of the fiscal year hopefully not by much", "we ask for a budget amendment to move forward to the 30th to handle all of those payroll issues", "and we had the amendment i believe it's in second reading if i'm not mistaken for next week and hopefully we get that and nothing drastic happens between now and june 30th", "but this is our fifth year that we've gone in for a budget amendment", "let me guess the first four didn't get it there's a question i was gonna ask you so the first four every year thus far this is our fifth year that we've gone in for a budget amendment", "every year we've gotten a budget amendment for the shortage", "every year yeah", "thank you chief", "you're welcome", "you said every year you had a new budget", "every year so it's ranged from eighty thousand to two million", "so as we present our budget those are the things that go into the process from the mayor's office and then it gets cut during the budget deliberations with council", "so a lot of our projections are pretty close to what we need but then the cuts are made and we have to go back through this process over and over again", "i'm curious who do you submit the request to the chair budget chair yes", "so the process goes through a transmittal form which goes from us to the mayor's office to budget from budget to the chair of the council and then from the budget i mean from the council chair to the budget chair", "and then they'll either schedule it or not", "thank you you're welcome next question here", "sure", "chief you know when you do have recruitment for classes how is it advertised it is online as well as in the maui news and i believe the star advertiser", "but it doesn't go into the molokai district i can't answer that question", "you can't answer me cause that's how molokai people don't know when the recruitments happen", "that comes out of our personal department but i can pass that information on", "yeah", "can we get that advertisement too as commissioner notifications yeah", "it kind of doesn't necessarily go through the fire department the department of personnel services handles that so you can ask for a quest but it's not something handled internally by the department", "but i'll ask", "cause i mean i think that would be an effective way to get more molokai people to apply because they just don't know about it", "i wonder if our personnel services has a notification list", "they do", "so you just put your name on it and so now they have it electronically so an individual can go on even if they're not looking for anybody provide their information on that list and then when they do send the list out on the first mail out of the newspaper then it would come to them on the following monday so usually goes out on a sunday and on a monday they'll get an email blast", "as long as their email address information is correct", "and updated", "i guess you can let the newspapers of molokai know that have people just sign up or it", "that's a good idea it should pay for itself though man", "it'd sure alleviate the nonemployment issue", "so based on that information or that request i will send that information to department of personnel services", "thank you", "members i'd like to welcome miss cher betas to the meeting", "i'm sorry all right so moving from seven item 7d on number of incident reports if we can look in your handouts for the month of april", "and do you have any questions no questions i just noticed that what do you call false alarms stays pretty consistent the amount yeah sure does", "yeah", "any questions members just one question about this false alarms are they from alarm companies or are they from people actually pulling alarms its a mix of both", "i believe i spoke i'm not sure if it was last month or the month before but anytime we have the alarm companies issue we go and if it's more than three times we send them a letter", "they usually get on them pretty quick", "is there anybody you're actually tracking whose constant repeat false alarm goes to the car fire and hazard we have one that is separate ours passed before the police false alarm bill", "so we have a process that we can use to go after those individuals or companies that have false alarms", "i mean anything that you know you can do to reduce you know this cry wolf syndrome", "and a lot of times when we get a rash of this it's due to bad weather", "so electronically things don't run properly", "that's when you'll see the influx and it doesn't just happen to us but police department civil events and emergency management", "the big problem i noticed when i was working was alarms weren't being serviced", "right", "and the batteries weren't being replaced and when there was a power outage you're supposed to switch to that battery that's backed up but if the batteries dead it triggers the alarm", "so i think but they really need somebody really needs to look at insuring that alarm companies service these alarms on a regular basis to prevent this excessive response to false alarms", "for the most part we have in excess of six thousand commercial properties and all of those have fire alarms so if we're talking fifty out of those six thousand that we know of i think the ratio is really good considering", "we do anything excessive we do reach out through our fire prevention bureau and through our inspection process that is on the checklist at all times", "so it is looked at on a daily basis throughout our community hopefully that helps", "thank you", "you're welcome", "chief you made a question on the alarms", "do all these commercial properties like multiples or quick malls and all do they all have lock boxes or do you know", "it is a requirement from us is if they start off new we require them to do the lock box", "and so majority of them have that", "we try not to use that as a lesson so yeah that's available to us", "any more questions okay so item 7c fire department two thousand fiscal year two thousand and eighteen budget updates", "which of the three all right so out of our eighty three items that we put forward through the mayors office only four of those items made it through to council", "and then i'm gonna talk a little bit about some of the cuts", "all right so you know county wide funding where they try to put most of the equipment in", "so we go along with department of public works and environmental management they put it in", "that fund for our ladder truck that cut four hundred thousand so from twelve million to i believe it was eight hundred so that doesn't get us a sufficient ladder truck but we're in the process of putting that out to bid and see where it ends up", "and then maybe going back to ask for a amendment for the bid that comes in the winning bid", "i have a question chief", "sure", "you know when they make these cuts do they consult with you guys experts on their decision why they're making the cuts when you guys know that something that you need smart", "thank you for that question", "that is a really good question the answer is no", "i know they try to do research with other departments within hawaii of what one of the measuring points that they have to really consider is specifications what are the differences and what are different needs of the other counties as opposed to ours", "we're pretty clear on what our needs are and i'm not sure what the whole process about their decisions are but this is not the first time that that's happened so it really puts the damper on the whole process and the whole timing of the contracts when they actually go out", "so thank you for that question", "so the good news is the two battalion chiefs that this commission as well as our administration has been fighting for has been put on for a limited term", "so what that means is we were able to hire the two people but they'll be limited not permanent", "and the findings of an audit that they also approved that council will pay for whatever that findings come out will either make those positions permanent or eliminate them completely", "so i'm not sure how that process is gonna work", "i'm still waiting on the information for that but our department will be full cooperation with that audit", "one of the suggestions we had was that the accreditation is a full blown audit of the department", "and that was already paid for to a nonprofit which was much less cost wise but the council felt that they wanted to do something independently so that was the decision that was made", "that they will fund that and we'll be in full cooperation with that", "chief what was the limitations on the two positions based on the findings of the audit", "there wasn't a two year term or anything no we're not sure what the total time frame pending the audit", "so the only thing that i asked was that it provide and fit the national fire protection agencies associations guidelines", "so they accepted it in that fashion so i'm very comfortable it doesn't matter who they hire", "when do you anticipate the audit being complete i have no idea cause they haven't chosen an auditor an auditor firm yet", "so i guess that would be just disappointing if you hire the two bodies got em on and the audit finishes six months later and then those bodies are adjusted", "there is that possibility but going into that they'll be fine for the fiscal year cause i believe you have the funding for one year", "all positions are only for one year with a active budget", "so technically we got the positions but we don't have the funding for the positions so we have to make adjustments for that as well", "so those are the kinds of things thank you okay well it didn't show em on our yeah but they're funded", "thank you i'm sorry i've just been corrected", "funded out of the current budget", "yeah the floan the fyet budget which kicks in july 1st but they give positions at mine", "okay that was good", "and that's awesome cause we were under the assumption that cause it didn't show up on our spreadsheet", "sir thank you", "all right and some of the notable items that will need more funding moving forward is our helicopter", "the new contracts came out and it was slightly higher of course you know the last contract was done four years ago on a annual cost basis so that needs to be adjusted at some point in time", "there was discussion about eliminating our ocean safety battalion chief", "that got put in back in there as well as funding and so my whole thing was i just wanted to move it from our admin program to the ocean safety program so i could keep all of that money and funding and personnel in that same program", "a couple minor adjustments we're taking out of our maintenance program", "they moved our four mechanics to the operations program and we still don't understand how and why that happened but the funding was maintained", "funding maintained which is they just moved to operations so kind of a interesting process not sure what the whole thoughts were behind that but it doesn't really affect us and we're gonna manage it the same so just a clarification to the board", "any questions on 7c all right moving forward 7d so the maui fire department standards of covered accreditation report", "last month we handed out a folder that included those two reports", "and i'm not sure if anybody was able to go through that and may have some questions but what i'd like to do is go over the first report which is called the standards of cover", "and that information is compiled internally by our people", "so through dispatch and all of our report management system all of those data is provided for you", "and in this standards of cover the data and information shows where we need to improve", "so this is the final report for that and it covers every aspect of our response and how our emergency areas that we cover for all the districts", "so you're gonna see some different response times in different areas based on the distances and the resources", "so if anybody has any questions on the standards of cover this is a quite robust document so even if it's not at this time you know let the chair know or me and i'll be able to answer the questions for you", "so a lot of work about a year and a half of work went into this document", "and it is all part of the accreditation process", "i have a question chief you know for that accreditation the response from the station to the scene what is the time part of the crediting like twelve minutes its all dependent its all dependent for district and what we provided to the accreditation board", "so for instance any city area its about sixteen minutes twelve to sixteen minutes depending", "and that's for your first and second", "then like the say like cause there's a big gap between paia and hana yes", "now would that fall under a different category because of its geographical yes it falls under a rural timeline and even those we don't meet because of our roadways and the distance", "just a comment i thought this was pretty awesome lot of work you can see that a lot of work went into it and you know being a former member is very impressive to see all this work of documenting that our department does", "and you know did you put a team together to put this yes so you know for about seven years we've been asking for a accreditation manager just one person", "and we all know that that one person wouldn't be able to compile anything like this at any point even if they did that for twenty four hours a day", "so what we did is we put a team together and what we call it is a cadre system so basically like instructors and what have you but we put together a team to help with this accreditation process", "so we put teams for the standard of cover", "we put teams for the emergency response areas", "we put teams for all of those things", "so some of the over time that is brought up goes into that process", "we did not pay the accreditation board anything other than to pay for the travel of the individual's coming out cause they're nonprofit", "but they are the experts in this area of management so i believe that this process was very effective and efficient", "and they help us to provide these kinds of documents for you", "thank your commissioner some time for that", "now any more questions on the standards of cover chief one quick question looking at your response times again and looking for hana specifically and in thirteen it was twenty six minutes what page oh page fifty fifty five zero two thousand and thirteen the fire response was twenty six minutes and in fifteen it goes to forty five minutes", "what's causing such a dramatic change in response time for hana okay so how that works is they'll take an average the top ninety of all responses during that annual year", "so what that says is that their distant to response halts or further than the one the ninety that was done the year before", "but they still have to be factored in so there's no way for us to", "so you know manipulate the data so the data is what it is", "and so we have to take that ninety of all of those calls", "that becomes your average for that year", "and i'm glad that you picked up on that cause those are the things that the accreditation board looks at", "so in our tour of the island they saw the challenges that we have and they've given suggestions in their report of how to manage that", "i have a question chief", "yes i was wondering how many audits has this organization done with other fire departments thousands", "we do all of them all of them except for they're the only body that does this internationally as well as the united states", "and only two hundred and forty two departments in the united states are accredited out of the ten thousand or so that are exist", "i guess you were just unlucky that someone calls bad feelings call forward", "well absolutely yes we had some calls that have been running up to five hours", "so its really really interesting", "when you take them on a tour then you take them around totally around the island they know that there's no station in kipahulu", "yeah", "its really not", "so its really good that we go through the data the statistics and really work out because our constituents need to understand what we are up against", "and then so this information helps us provide what we need in a budget as well right", "so like i said our open arms to that audit from a third party and this was a third party but we'll do it all over again", "its not an issue for us we have nothing to hide", "we wanna learn more and we want to be able to provide that information as much as possible", "this information will provide yes", "all right moving over to the next report which is the accreditation report", "this report if you look on the first page is composed and written by the four peer accessors that showed up on maui in january", "and this is the report they provided with us", "the breakdown the areas that we need to work on", "they also touch on some of the things that we do very well", "what page is that it is accreditation report cover page", "look for the tab", "so this one is this report is much more specific to the needs and what our department needs to work on and focus because all of the other core competencies were already met", "so one of the real issues is we have a deadline for august of this year and based on our budgeting and what set forward that we're not gonna make that deadline", "so we were hoping to go through this process provide the information and have the cadres work on all the information that needs to be assessed and turned in and then they'll come out and do another assessment and our hopes are to pass and be accredited officially in march but that's not gonna happen cause we do not have the funding to put the teams together to work on these items", "so we're only eight items shy of the total", "most departments go through this process anyway", "so the real issue here is that we invested a lot of money and time to go through this process of a self assessor and that was done in the eighth edition so starting january of two thousand and eighteen all assessments done after that will have to be done in the ninth edition", "so they'll be a whole another process that we have to kind of get all over again", "so i really was trying to get this done by august of this year but it's not gonna be done", "so when you say eighth edition ninth edition that's how many years that you've been working on it no it's the editions that the accreditation body comes out with so they see times", "so i believe the eighth edition has been out approximately five to six years and they're making changes", "oh okay", "right so they provided us with a window of opportunity for three years to get it done and we just were unable so we're gonna have to start from scratch literally the next time we go through this process", "at least your procedures directing us there", "that's great so there's a lot of positives so that whole process right there sounds negative but there's a lot of positives that was learned through the process", "and we're gonna continue to press forward", "so with these equipment right and that was one of the areas that we failed these in our facilities", "because we have no real means of managing maintenance of our facilities", "where as other departments have people that actually they have building maintenance repairs", "we have none we have fifteen facilities and we have nobody to take care of them", "how many areas did you succeed in and how many areas did you fail in we failed in eight", "out of out of eighty six i believe", "and those eighty six have to be met", "so there's two hundred and sixty four other ones that we met the majority of those as well but eight of the core just did not meet", "eight out of eighty six the chief is up on this", "yeah that's pretty good", "the budget that's being worked on right now no or the council for next year chief i have a question i know you provided all the council people with the information here", "now with a budget process i'm sure they read this already a couple times", "who is less responsive to the reason as far as council what does that mean who's the less responsive to the needs of the fire department in the budget that's very subjective", "i know i would recommend if you want to look into personally but i don't think the chief has an opinion on that", "that's why i yeah", "probably have to read the minutes on that", "yes read the minutes and make your own conclusions", "thank you for the question", "so chief i just have one major concern", "the funding that you need to complete the accreditation was it supported by the county administration yes see before we started off on this process we went to the classes we understood what we needed to do", "we started to front load the process with whatever funding we had nine years ago", "and every year thus far", "and then two years ago we had to get the mayor to sign off and support this so he has supported the process", "its just when it gets to the next level that its not supported", "so you're pretty close i know just like the police department you go through a review process internally where you kick around okay what do we need you know and then you put it together and things get cut internally then it goes up to the mayors office that things being cut but the final problem is seems like just to get over that hurdle we need to work a little bit better with a legislative portion to get the funding that we need", "yes that's a good question", "so just for clarification purposes accreditation is uh", "basically an audit of the department and its whole operations", "so prior to that like i said we front loaded a lot of things and one of the areas that we did was our area of certification for our needs and training for our department members", "that we are up to snuff with and we just try to get the whole department as a whole in all of its policies and all of its standing orders and standard operating guidelines to be on the same process", "and hopefully one day we'll get the support needed", "you're just the feet", "yes so being shiny is not very far", "its extremely frustrating to come this far in the process and not being able to finish", "i feel you", "chief what dollar value are we looking at what is what would the funding mechanism what would the dollars be that you feel you need to finish this out well initially i would say six out of the eight would come into some overtime", "which would probably be about forty thousand", "okay so forty grand what else the other two would come into some processes and software and what have you for our records managing", "that we are not sure what the total cost would be but even if we estimated it at one hundred thousand or one hundred and fifty thousand that's still in reach", "so for two hundred thousand you'd finish this project i would say yes that's an estimate yes", "so once the program say you got the funding mutual funding for the program to finish you know meeting the eight things that we're not meeting right now", "has there been any discussion with council about should they decide to adopt accreditation is there a big change in pay for the department no not at all", "there's no change in pay all it's saying is that our department has met the standards of accreditation which is higher than a minimum", "that's all we're asking because we want to be able to provide the community with the best possible service", "and a third party would say that the maui fire department cuts ratings", "that was a goal of this commission when i got hired", "so i'm just trying to carry on what was asked of me within my means", "chief i have a follow up question so it we were able somehow to get the funding to finish accreditation is the timing still be a factor that would still be a huge factor because there's other departments that we have to work with", "and we'd have to have all of their support as well", "so i don't know if three months or two months would make it happen but if we had the funds we would try very hard to make it happen", "that's all i could promise you", "is there a way to ask the accreditation board for an extension without funding no we tried that already in fact i went through that process in november to ask for an extension and they basically said the extension would be to august september of this year", "but we had to have provided all of the information moving forward if not we would show no accredibility moving forward so just to get them to show up in january to fly here we crossed a large hurdle to get through that process", "question here", "chief you know the as part of their accreditation process do they also look at how you staff the department absolutely so what's the three battalion chiefs on the west side and molokai and all that", "was that part of the yes", "and like taking away those positions would that affect accreditation yes", "so i guess the question for me then is to ask the council do you guys really want our department to be accredited or not because if you do then you need to staff us correctly", "i think that's the question to be asked", "i mean if you gotta put it in nuts and bolts to them right", "because if you say its only gonna cost two hundred thousand more dollars to be accredited i mean what better standard to have", "i agree", "i wonder if there's a way that we could send a letter up and have the commission of chairs signature strongly voicing our opinion of the accreditation process and what it means to finish", "i was wondering how leverage this body into putting pressure on the mayor and the chair of county council to take this seriously", "you guys might want to put that out on a agenda item for next month and that way it's every month that this goes by is one less month that he's got just a suggestion but i would really if you're gonna write that letter from this body you may want to get more detailed solid information and numbers from the chief rather than some back of the envelope calculations if you wanted to write one on your own i wouldn't suggest saying it's from the body", "our power is as a collected group its not as individuals", "so if there was a motion put on the floor i don't see it on your agenda page", "so you'll i would suggest that for such general purposes", "so what we can do members is we can bump our next meeting date and time and we can have a request to have item agendized", "we can discuss it at the next meeting", "i will work on providing you with more hard numbers", "any more questions members i just want to say well done", "this is really really really well done and i think especially if it's not costing any money for the taxpayers moving forward on this is in my eyes its a no brainer job well done", "thank you", "thank you commissioner ka lepta any more questions members just one more just a compliment again of what this document does it really identifies", "being a former member you you think you feel certain ways but here it is in black and white and some color", "it's a really good document even for me to go through and it and see it", "so thank you", "will this document be available to public at some point cause we'll put it on our website", "so i appreciate you bringing that up because its really you know there's a word that's being tossed around quite often transparency", "and i think going through the accreditation process can not send that message stronger to the people than transparency", "i don't even understand how its not supported", "its extremely important for our community and our visitors to know that they're coming into a accredited area", "and for us to want to do that", "it takes a lot of work from all of our members within the department wanting to make that happen", "you know nobody wants somebody to come in their back yard and tell em how for clean their yard", "but we're willing to say hey how can we make it better and it goes for everything i mean they came in and helped us with our ocean safety processes as well they turned us onto more information in that realm so once we go into the ninth edition all of that has to be clear as well", "so right now they would've allowed us to move forward then have that a work in progress", "so i don't know how much that will cost us so that's an added thing moving on to the ninth as well", "but thank you very much for the discussion and the support", "we hope that some point in time that this can be achieved", "for you as well as the community", "thank you for the opportunity", "all right so quick announcement next meeting is thursday june 8th at the fire prevention bureau at one thousand and thirty in the morning", "we have that request to add on the agenda possible letter of support for staff to uncover accreditation"], "name": ["170511BCFirePublicSafety/170511BCFirePublicSafety/170511-BC-FirePublicSafety_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "170511BCFirePublicSafety/170511BCFirePublicSafety/170511-BC-FirePublicSafety_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "170511BCFirePublicSafety/170511BCFirePublicSafety/170511-BC-FirePublicSafety_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "170511BCFirePublicSafety/170511BCFirePublicSafety/170511-BC-FirePublicSafety_DOT_flac_00003.flac", 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"label": ["all right", "once again my name is jon wright with taylor farm and this is farmer's talk and today we are in new haven vermont with chris granstrom of lincoln peak vineyard", "can you tell me just a little brief background of the history of lincoln peak sure yeah", "so i'll sort of work backwards if that's all right", "right now we have about twelve acres of producing vineyard oh a little less because we we're in the process of replacing some", "well for the last few years we've claimed to be the largest grape producer in vermont", "we may lose that title here in the next year or two but we have been and i think the main thing that sets our business apart from a lot of the other wineries in this state is that we do grow all the grapes right here on our own property we're not importing grapes which is great in the sense that we have complete control of the quality all the decisions that have to be made in terms of growing and harvesting the grapes but of course it's limiting in then we can't decide to expand and bring in more product and so it works both ways but i think it lends a certain amount of credibility authenticity to what we're doing cause it's really a local product it's all grown right here it's not imported from someplace else", "and i think our customers respond to that", "we started planting about two thousand and two in terms of any size i think we've put in about half an acre in two thousand and two", "before that we had a strawberry farm here for about twenty four years so my daughter sarah who we'll meet grew up in the strawberry business and then the early on was out dealing with the public in a pretty intensive way and we actually started the strawberry farm way back in one thousand nine hundred and eighty one when my wife and i first moved to this property and built a house and got going", "so we've been here we've been growing things and for a long time", "so why strawberries or grapes i'm sure that that was gonna be my next question yeah was gonna be your next question i'm sure it is", "well it was a combination of things i mean we've been doing the strawberries for a lot of years our production wasn't quite as good we had very generous crop rotations but even so", "we are replanting back into the same field even though in most cases you would have two two and a half years of cover crops and green manure crops between strawberry plantings and still the vigor was starting to go down a little bit and i think personally it was time for kind of a new challenge in life and also we had just heard about them", "really the most important reason is we just heard about these new grape varieties had been developed mostly from university of minnesota and also from a private grape breeder out in wisconsin a fellow named elmer swenson and we thought well this is going to take off in the north there's never been the possibility of growing good wine grapes in the north before and now there is and let's get it on the ground floor", "so we actually started as a nursery propagating and supplying vines to other vineyards", "and you continued to do that as part of the business we did we're not doing it any longer but we did it for about six or seven years", "of course to get the cuttings for the nursery we had to have at least a small vineyard to go out and get through the wood to propagate and so we were growing grapes almost in spite of ourselves and then selling grapes to other wineries and finally we just couldn't stand to see ourselves putting all this effort into this beautiful crop and then loading it in the back of a truck and seeing it go up the road", "so we started making wine and then gradually not of course but then gradually the wine took over and we realized we couldn't do both and let the nursery part of the business go", "now i'm completely out of my element here", "tell me a little bit about vineyards", "how many vineyards are there currently in vermont yeah well that changes and of course it depends on where you draw the line between kind of a hobby and a commercial vineyard", "i think the answer is probably around eighteen to twenty", "a lot of them are sort of in the half acre to two acre range which is sort of commercial but just borderline it's certainly a supplemental thing", "so i mean grapes have this kind of romantic image around them people love to think of the idea of growing grapes and making wine so a lot of people have kind of gotten bit by the bug and decided to put in a half an acre an acre and see what happens and like anything else some realize it's not romantic at all it's mostly just hard repetitive manual work and they say it's not for me and some others love it and do a great job", "now what made this all possible fifteen years ago vermont wasn't considered a great growing region", "so what's changed is really the genetics of the grapevines", "this fellow elmer swenson i mentioned a great story grew up on a little tiny dairy farm in osceola wisconsin", "i don't think he went past eighth grade", "i don't think he was ever interested in farming or dairy farming or cows but he was one of these people that was put on earth with a purpose and his purpose was to work with grapes", "and he spent a lifetime and for the first thirty years of his grapegrowing career and really in complete isolation hybridizing the old fashioned way with gathering pollen with a little paint brush and painting it on the flower of the other vine and marking it saving the seeds planting out the seeds watching what develops choosing the best of those doing it over and over again", "and finally into his middle age people started to realize what this guy was doing and people realized that he was creating this whole collection of grape varieties that were adapted to the wisconsin climate and not to get too technical on you but people that had previously tried to breed grapes for more northern climates were using as kind of their base material a species called vitis vitis is the grape genus species called vitis labrusca which is kind of the concord grape family and the trouble with concord grapes is they taste like grape juice grape jelly everybody knows what that tastes like but they don't make very good wine", "and what elmer realized was for the most part avoid that vitis labrusca and use vitis riparia which is the wild grape that grows in vermont and grows all across the northern tier states as kind of his genetic source of cold hardiness and vitis riparia has its own challenges it tends to be high in acid but it doesn't have those kind of off flavors that the vitis labrusca brought to the wine grapes when it was in the genetic background and so elmer in his own way had sort of taken grape breeding for northern climates down a new road so to speak", "did you ever have the opportunity to meet him i did", "i went out and spent a day with him", "he was in his early 90's at the time and it was fascinating he was just a great guy and then as elmer got he passed away a few years ago well in his 90s as his work got better known the university of minnesota picked up on it", "picked up on what he had done and then with vastly more resources of course and a more scientific rigor and not just following what he did bringing in their own ideas of course", "have continued a really active grape breeding program and have developed some wonderful variety", "so what we're growing here now includes some of elmer swensen's grapes and some of the university of minnesota grapes but what changed to get back to your original question fifteen years ago was the availability of these new grape varieties that are adapted to this climate yeah", "and are they well adapted are there still challenges here with this climate as far as winter hardiness at least in the champlain valley they're perfectly welladapted there's really no issue with winter damage here", "something like spring frost is still an issue but that's an issue in any place", "if you're in california or you're in france italy they have trouble with spring frost so that's just part of grapegrowing", "so what are some of the challenges with grape growing expand on that a little bit", "for me we had an extremely challenging wet summer", "was that a problem for you sure that's a tough question to answer", "you've just gotta get your first i think the grower has to get their mind wrapped around what's involved in growing grapes", "there's just a lot of little details a lot of small decisions along the way there's no one big secret to success like most things in life it's just a lot of very small steps", "correcting little mistakes along the way", "correcting your mistakes and finally you've made more good choices than bad choices and you say yeah it's working you know i'm still working on that piece", "yeah right", "so as far as the growing goes like anything else just getting this all prepared and weed control in the early years there's pests and diseases i'm sure we'll talk about that understanding the training and how to train them how to prune them", "those are the challenges and then dealing with the weather and you do what you can", "now sarah mentioned a little before the interview that we've now had a fairly nice warm relatively dry period which has been perfect for you", "yeah indeed", "so i said well you know grapes you'd think of california or the mediterranean they typically grow in a place with dry summers", "and so we're kind of pushing a little bit because we don't always have the dry summers", "in fact it seems like the last ten years we've had more trouble with wet weather than we have with dry weather", "so yeah we put up with all the rain in the early summer as best we could we had to do more disease control we had to deal with weeds but once the kind of the weather turned around there it's really been a nice summer for us and it's dry", "describe the season's from spring through harvest", "what are your jobs what are you", "okay", "so we'd probably start in winter because we prune in the winter time and it's a very skilled job and it's tens of thousands of individual cuts as we go up and down the rows", "how many people do you typically have helping you well it changes from year to year", "last year i had a key employee who's now gone on to start his own vineyard but he did the bulk of it himself", "i would jump in occasionally and it took him four or five months to get through the whole thing", "we start in december and finished probably in april", "so we get them pruned clear the brush out of the vineyards burn the brush and piles just to eliminate the disease source", "next step is what we call a tie up and if there's loose arms on the canes we go through tie them up to the trellis wires and then the weather warms up and we keep an eye on the buds that start to develop", "at that point we're looking at frost there's not a lot we can do about frost danger and then we're of course from then on throughout the season we're looking at insects and diseases they have to be controlled it's impossible to grow grapes without controlling them", "so you can't be in any way shape or fashion considered organic well there are people that have tried organic grape growing in vermont i admire what they do i don't think any of them have continued with it they've tried it and after a number of years realize that just can't do it", "the organic materials that are available to this you certainly can't do it without spraying anything and the organic materials that are available the spray are just not effective enough to maintain a healthy vineyard and so but it's possible to pick and choose the least toxic the smallest intervention and still keep the vineyard healthy", "so that's the route we go down and so we have to do it", "so in a year like this where it rained a lot in the early summer we have to spray a little more because the fungus diseases have the perfect conditions to keep spreading", "once it dries out like this we can cut way back because it's not wet don't have to spray", "is fungus one of the biggest problems fungus is the biggest problem", "there's really only one serious insect that we have to keep an eye on but we monitor that closely and only spray when we absolutely have to", "so you have to have some horticulture some entomology some chemistry all those things", "so midsummer is fairly so midsummer there is a pretty intensive workload because the key to growing good grapes to put it in a nutshell is getting the sunshine to shine on the grape clusters while they're ripening and of course the grapes the shoots tend to grow in any direction and a lot of them will grow right along the wire where in that position they're shading the grape clusters and then the sun's not getting to them you're not going to make good wine", "so we go through with the crew and this is just handson work we grab those shoots and pull them from here where they're shading the grape clusters and we pull them down so they're out of the way and then we often rip a few leaves off as we go so the sun hits right around the grape cluster area we call it the fruit zone", "and then a year like this year when we had so much rain that the vegetative vigor is just ongoing and so we've had to go through a second time and do that again", "it's really laborintensive but in the long run here it really makes a huge difference in the quality of the wine", "how is your crop looking this year right now the crop looks beautiful", "i'm surprised at how good it does look after the rain in the beginning of the summer but we got through that we've had a couple of nice hot spells that have brought the ripening development along and we've put in the time and effort and as the business owner the money to do all that shoot positioning and leaf pulling and right now they're gorgeous and we could be picking as soon as a week from now which would be the first week of september which is really on the early side for us but we like it we like to have it early because then if we need to wait we have a little bit of good weather on the other end", "if we're pushed right to the end of the season then sometimes you're forced to do a situation where you have to pick them runnin out of warmth because we running out of warmth and there's no point in waiting any longer", "so the harvest time you've got to try to gather up some competent and enthusiastic harvesters you bet", "how many people do you well we on a good day we have do you go to middlebury and drag some students out for the afternoon no that doesn't work", "we do have the one plant biology class comes out as one of their labs and picks grapes for an afternoon and which is kind of fun the kids are enthusiastic", "we ended up putting an ad on craigslist and on just things like the front porch forum and things like that and year after year we pull together a good crew", "how many people do you so we usually end up hiring about six more people plus we have our regular employees who are here and sorta change gears into harvest mode", "so we might have eight or nine people working on a given day and of course it's busy with the tourists are here for the fall foliage so it's busy in the shop as well", "take in the double whammy", "gotta keep all that going at the same time", "but we've been lucky in terms of being able to pull a local crew together every year", "i think it helps that it's grapes", "people think grape picking is more exciting than whatever potato picking or something", "give them a little wine and keep them happy yeah we can each drink a little wine now and then", "now how does the harvesting actually work you snip the grape clusters we have a little pair of lightweight shears yellow plastic totes that hold about twenty eight pounds and you just go along the row clip clip and you'll get two or three clusters in your hand put them in the basket", "do you have to treat them i've harvested apples", "we treat them gently", "even though you're going to be crushing them", "exactly", "we don't want them to be crushed too soon", "yeah yeah", "so we treat them gently and the totes we use will stack on top of each other so they don't crush the ones below", "so we pick them line up a bunch under the vines we drive through with a tractor and we just have a little homemade wagon built just to fit two bins wide", "so a little bit like apple harvesting yeah a little bit like that a mini scale", "sure and then of course we come down here and as soon as we back the wagon into a processing area that we called or like every winery calls the crush pad because we crush the grapes there we unload them into the crusher destemmer they go into the press or into the tank we hose out the bins and put them right back on the wagon", "the crew is out there we try not to make them wait for empty bins", "so it's instantaneous you don't store the fruit oh no no it's instantaneous it's ongoing all the time and we're paying the crew a piece rate so much per pound so when the wagon comes in there are all the bins and marks so we run it over a scale mark how many pounds it is into the crusher goes and then right back out", "and so they'll pick until about three o'clock or so and then we'll have our final pickups we'll usually have a big load of grapes at the end of the day and we'll process those and hope to get out in time to get some sleep", "yeah so you can be going late into the night", "yeah you can", "you can be going into the night for sure", "and how long does the harvest take is this a month yeah a month or a little less if the weather is all good three and a half weeks something like that", "and can you go through the vineyard in a clean sweep or do you have to come back as fruit ripens no it's a onetime through", "yeah yeah", "it's a onetime through we try to just as the grapes change colors which is usually early august we go through the crew that's been doing the shoot positioning and leaf falling we go through one more time looking for any clusters that are lagging that are still green after the other ones have turned color and cut those off just drop them on the ground because they will eventually turn color but there'll be way behind the other ones and there'll be underripe at harvest time but there's no way to distinguish them so we try to get rid of those we're not bringing underripe fruit in with the good ones", "would that alter the flavor of the wine so as grapes ripen the sugar levels are going up the acid levels are going down and the flavors are developing", "so if you get ones that are underripe in there i mean the main issue i think would be that the acid it would keep pushing the acid low because we're always fighting kind of borderline high acid levels so we want to do whatever we can to keep that under any kind of threshold", "sweeten it up a little bit", "what's this i'm curious about this mechanism that can destem the grapes", "how does that work is it a tumbler yeah yeah", "so you dump it into a hopper", "it's got an auger that brings it down to one end and inside it's covered so you don't see it but there's a cylinder with holes in it and the holes are big enough for grapes to go through but not for the grape stems to go through and it's rolling one way and there's a shaft down the middle with little paddles off of it and that's turning the other way and those are angled so it kind of pushes it from one end to the other it kind of moves it along slowly", "and is there washing in that no there's no washing", "so those paddles are knocking the grapes off the stems and kind of flinging them through those little holes the stems can't get through and they slowly work their way down the cylinder and then just dump out onto the ground at the end", "and then our vineyard actually does another thing", "beneath that there is a pair of matched rubber rollers that you can set the distance on as to how much you want to crush them and they'll go through that and get crushed and then they come through and at that point it's just what you call a must it's mass of crushed grapes and we have a big three inch hose we can pump that out", "how did you i mean we've just talked about the grape growing", "now tell me a little bit about the wine making part or first of all how many pounds of grapes what's your yield how many pounds can you talk about that sure", "it varies of course from year to year i would say we're not necessarily shooting for the highest possible yield because with grapes when you get to a really high yield it tends to dilute the flavors and the sugars to some extent and the wine quality wouldn't be as good", "so we're shooting for kind of that perfect balance point where we have a good solid yield but we haven't overshot it to the point where we're compromising the wine quality", "so for our twelve acres kind of a yield number that we would be shooting for would probably be about eighty five thousand pounds of grapes forty some tons", "and so what does that turn into in terms of wine we make about a little over two thousand cases of wine and a case is twelve bottles there's three quarters of a liter in a bottle so that's nine liters in a case of wine", "once you get into the wine world you get out of gallons", "you talk in liters you talk in liters", "everything in terms of grams and liters", "when i go home we're back in the ounces and pounds but over here everything is grams and liters just because that's the way it all works", "so yeah and so the red grapes bring them in on the wagon put them through the crusher goes through that must pump into the hose into the tank", "we add the yeast the entire grape ferments together because for about the first week during that week the wine as it's developing is extracting flavors and colors from the skins that are in there with it", "then after that week roughly we'll press it", "then we have just the pure wine and the skins and the seeds we'll separate just take out and compost", "so i'm still confused during this process you're continually adding more from the harvest no no", "yeah good question", "we'll fill up one tank at a time within a day whatever we pick that day we'll fill up a tank so that tank is a unit and that goes through the winemaking that ferments together", "so during that week twice a day we pump the wine off the bottom of the tank and up over the top of the tank because as soon as it starts to ferment all those little carbon dioxide bubbles grab a hold of the grape skins and push them up to the top", "so you get what we call the cap at the top and then the juice becoming wine in the middle and then the seeds settle to the bottom but we want to have contacts for the reasons i said between the wine and the skins", "so we pump it over and wet down that cap and let the wine and juice and wine trickle down through those skins at least twice a day", "yeah yeah", "so then at the end of the week we pump off what we call the free wine the wine that separates itself in that middle section and then we shovel the skins into a press and press those", "to get out any residual", "get out whatever", "and then that press wine we call it is different from the free wine", "usually the flavors aren't as delicate it's a little rougher tasting but it tends to have more tannins which is a nice component to wine so we're sort of tasting that we might keep it separate just for a minute separately then blend it back in later or we may be tasting it as it's pressing and the harder you press it it changes continuously as you're pressing we may kind of cut it off at a certain point and say okay anything that comes out from now we'll put into a same tank you must be drinking wine every night", "somebody gotta do it man it's tough", "i think it's great", "yes we go from here", "that's be great there you go", "linda picks up each of the cases of empty bottles and slaps them down on the table and then two at a time she put some of those little valves actually give a small squirt of nitrogen in each bottle which blows out the cardboard dust and actually replaces all the oxygen in the bottle with nitrogen", "and when we then go to put them on the filler that just means that the wine doesn't have any oxygen exposure and the nitrogen does not matter at all", "so then the next person grabs each bottle pops em on the filler", "it's a gravity filler", "that same person takes it off puts it to the one side", "and the corker eric today grabs the whole bottle puts it on the corker", "the corker actually pulls a vacuum in the little two inch space in the neck of the bottle sucks out all of the air and then pumps the cork in and puts it back in the case", "so every bottle has been handled at least four times before it goes to sale", "you always a wine drinker or is this something that you've no people ask me that and i enjoyed wine but i was not really serious or fanatical about it or really that knowledgeable about it", "i've pretty much came to this from the farming side rather than the wine side", "but of course as i've gotten into it i've learned a tremendous amount about wine and it's a wonderful thing", "it's a wonderful thing to know about it's a whole world of experience to enjoy", "yeah and it's been one of the more satisfying parts about it i'm sure it's very rewarding it's very rewarding learning all about it", "and it's not some great mystery that you have to have some specialized knowledge about it", "the main thing is just to taste a lot of different kinds of wines and take the time to pay attention to what you're tasting", "and all of a sudden you start to see patterns and recognize certain flavors and then it all clicks into place", "so this is a look at our range of wines", "we make ten different wines", "there are two grapes with the biggest production our marquette and la crescent", "marquette is our dry red wine", "this is overall our biggest selling wine", "we also make a ros from the marquette grape which is same grape different winemaking technique", "we call that hartwood that's a new wine for us", "that's been really popular", "the le crescent is a white wine grape and we actually make three different wines from that", "we make why don't we call it just the crescent which is on the it's not completely dry but it's on the dry side with just a small amount of residual sugar", "then we also make a sweeter version which we call ragtime white", "and it's not only sweeter but it's got a little different flavor profile as well", "and it's got a little spiciness to go along with the sweetness", "then we make one we call late harvest which is sweeter still", "and this is more of just a pure fruit flavor with a nice mouth feel to it", "and really delicious it's a kind of a dessert wine or something with an aged cheese and a nice aged gouda cheese yeah there you go", "would be perfect with this but we have we have ideal conditions for making ice wine here right now", "can you talk about that little bit ice wine is the grapes are actually frozen", "so right now the world's center of ice wine production is ontario canada but it's really the conditions here are better", "we have better grape varieties", "we have more consistent cold weather in the early winter", "so ice wine is a dessert wine it's made by leaving the grapes on the vines into the early winter", "you pick em the first time it reaches eighteen degrees fahrenheit", "at that temperature they're about three quarters frozen but what freezes is pure water", "and the one quarter that's not frozen is concentrated of everything else", "all the flavors sugars are in that one quarter that's not frozen", "so you press the grapes while they're still frozen you leave the water behind as ice crystals and you get this super concentrated juice", "and it's just a fabulous product and that is something that you're working on oh we make it we make it now", "but what i'm saying is i think vermont has the potential but we sell it all here", "we sell it all right here", "it's not a big production item for us", "it sells at a very high price because it takes so many more grapes and there's a lot more risk involved", "and you're cold when you're harvesting you're cold right i just want to backup a minute thinking about regions of production are people doing this over in new york state across the pond there are some i'm not as familiar with what's going on over there", "there are a few starting in the champlain valley", "and then actually there's a little cluster getting started over in the st lawrence valley kind of north of watertown in that area", "anything in the connecticut river valley or not quite yeah there's some vineyards going over there", "i think the champlain valley tends to be a little drier a little less foggy in the fall", "and so the conditions are a little bit better here but we're still an emerging grape region goes through a transition and you can tell when you're sort of starting to be serious and that goes and that's from when people plant grapes on the land they happen to own already", "but when people start looking for good land that's suited to grapes and that really hasn't happened in vermont yet and", "but sarah's coming along", "yeah that could happen", "i mean we obviously planted grapes on the land we happened to have it's pretty good for grapes", "it's not perfect", "i would say that our biggest problem here is the soil is just too rich and fertile which causes all that vegetative growth", "i was talking about that we have to deal with in the early summer", "what a problem to have", "well it is it is a problem", "the ideal grape regions are on this kind of poorer gravelly bony soil and really there's no magic to that", "it's just that they don't grow so much", "yeah grapes are so the grapes get a lot more sun it's all about getting the sun on those grapes", "so i think there are good sites in vermont", "i think i know what they are but i'm not going to be the one to go develop them develop them", "but maybe somebody will", "but as you're driving down the road you think ah boy that would be a good spot", "i think if i had to spell it out", "in this kind of the southern champlain valley kind of from shoreham all the way down to like west haven that on the hilltops there's this shaley soil i think it's called farmington for the most part", "and i think those shaley hilltops in the southern champlain valley i think that that is just the perfect environment for vermont grapes so there you go that's the tip of the day you just spilled the beans there you go", "so people ask me sometimes how has climate change affected grape growing here well actually people say well the reason that we're growing grapes in vermont is because the climate is warming up", "no it's not", "yeah development it's because of the new genetics we have these new varieties", "i don't know what climate changes can do", "all i can say is looking over the last eight ten years what it seems like is that it's getting more rain more and more rain", "particularly early in the season", "particularly early in the season yeah i mean so which is not good for us", "the winters are milder but that's not really it seems but that's not really a big issue for us because these grapes are adapted to a cold winter anyway", "frost if we start getting like early heat waves and then turns back to cold that could be an issue but that's kind of always happened i guess", "so it's hard to know if the successive rainfall is kind of our local version of climate change", "that's not good for us but that seems to be kind of the only consistent change that i've seen recently", "yeah our lifespan is relatively short to be talking", "i feel clearly we are seeing some changes and some pretty dramatic changes", "it concerns me that those changes are going to accelerate with time but just have to do what we can", "marketing you wholesale wine around the state yeah we have a distributor who picks up our wine takes it to stores and restaurants around the state", "just within vermont just within vermont yeah", "then we also have our little shop here and in terms of volume i think we sell probably two thirds of the wine right here out of our shop", "and the other third is going through the distributor", "obviously like every farmer we like to get the full retail dollar if possible", "so we like to sell it here but it also is great to have our product spread around where people see it and become aware of us and maybe even come visit us someday", "and do you get a nice flow of visitors we do yeah", "do you get a lot during the harvest season people curious about yeah we do it's definitely i mean we have our local kind of our local customers and our tourists and the tourists are important and we can't do without them and our local people are our repeat customers and we want to treat them right too", "so we build in some incentives for people to come price incentives for people to come back and give us a repeat business which is good for them and helps us build loyalty with people", "and then we do events we have every other friday", "we have a band here and it's free people can come and bring a picnic and we get on a nice day we can get fabulous crowds here", "it's a lot of fun", "two dollars in the jukebox a dime at a time play the same old song about a love gone wrong til closing time two dollars oughta do me if you'll buy the wine and i'll feed that jukebox one dime at a time and i have to say that the response we've gotten people just love it", "they just think it's a fabulous thing", "it feels like kind of a community gathering", "more than a commercial event", "and of course we're selling wine by the glass so that's a little more profit margin for us because we're selling it that way", "and admission is free", "the only money we're taking in is the sale of our own agricultural product", "and so it's still and we're allowed to sell our own product on our farm even though it's not a commercial zone", "so we're still within the letter of the zoning laws that way", "are there liability challenges with that or does it go oh we have all kinds of insurance", "we pay a lot of money for insurance", "for sure", "now what are your hopes and aspirations for the business you have twelve acres", "would you like to expand that or no i think we're at capacity where we want to be", "and there's a pretty good balance between the grapes we can produce the size of our facility and kind of what we can do in terms of marketing now plus i'm sixty", "so i'm not really out to conquer the world anymore", "it was a lot of years to get this up to where it was operating in the black", "and i just want to see it work", "as far as challenges go i mean our main challenge is just to keep making the wine quality better and better", "you know what i mean and we feel good about where it is but it can always be better", "you know what i mean and so we're always working both on the grape growing techniques and the winemaking techniques to see how we can get a better product", "so chris i really want to thank you for taking the time to talk with us today", "it's been a wonderful educational opportunity for me", "beautiful facility you have and it was a pleasure to have a little walk out in the vineyard", "you bet well thank you", "it's fun to stop for a minute and be forced to step back and look at the big picture", "cause a lot of times like most farmers we just have our heads down and are worried about the next hour and so it's kind of fun just to stop and talk about it with another farmer", "and so i've enjoyed the conversation", "well good", "we'll be up for one of your wine tasting music nights for sure", "sounds great", "very good thanks"], "name": ["FarmersTalk_-_Lincoln_Peak/FarmersTalk_-_Lincoln_Peak/FarmersTalk_-_Lincoln_Peak_DOT_flac_00000.flac", 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9673, 2393, 1340, 4393, 14110, 1943, 2270, 15750, 6133, 833, 14318, 52022, 6363, 11753, 7953, 2000, 4950, 11510, 1273, 4560, 2633, 18266, 3720, 3443, 2980, 5723, 16140, 13060, 10980, 8443, 1350, 14166, 2550, 12611, 9372, 11029, 4913, 10400, 8530, 10120, 9857, 7816, 9150, 13930, 4047, 5620, 12763, 6440, 4350, 1600, 14200, 8763, 4053, 2360, 6470, 5163, 4756, 4690, 3953, 13650, 4436, 1550, 2231, 1959, 12980, 12110, 9100, 6057, 2590, 5273, 9620, 4873, 3743, 4627, 4903, 14830, 11630, 6640, 14450, 10290, 13533, 2420, 5770, 14943, 1890, 3763, 3250, 7600, 14160, 7540, 3040, 5870, 2680, 2610, 9070, 12980, 2863, 2010, 1280, 5093, 8684, 4370, 4930, 10360, 6123, 6256, 14013, 1069, 4254, 1050, 1903, 923, 1500], "label": ["i'd like to introduce ann smith who is the executive director of the friends of the winooski which is a nonprofit group which is focused on education conservation and and all things targeted towards the winooski river basin", "and she is going to be speaking about her brand new publication living in harmony with streams which is a collaboration between her and other folks throughout the state and particularly the state of vermont", "so let's give her your full attention thank you", "thanks rebecca well i appreciate everybody coming out tonight", "i've been going around giving this talk", "this may be my eighth or ninth one that i've given", "and a lot of them i very intentionally targeted going to civic organizations like particularly a lot of rotary clubs because they have established meetings and they're looking for speakers and it's really easy for me to get there", "the downside the other thing with going to like the civic clubs is all of you selfselected to come out on a chilly december evening to hear a talk about rivers", "by going to the civic clubs i'm talking to folks who probably wouldn't do that", "the downside is i usually have no more than a half an hour and sometimes less than that", "so i've gotten very efficient at giving this talk", "and when rebecca said it was going to be scheduled from six to seven hundred and thirty i'm like i don't know what i'm going to talk about for an hour", "so i think we can take this at a leisurely pace", "and i also think i went and put a few slides back in today knowing i had the luxury of time", "but i think i can take questions as we go", "and the other opportunity that i have is to tell you a little bit more about what the friends does which i usually sort of skip and jump into the meat of things", "so the friends are dedicated to the restoration and the protection of the winooski river watershed", "one question i always like to ask is does anybody know where the winooski river starts in cabot", "the headwaters go like north north of loop around north of montpelier into a very rural area i don't know exactly", "yeah it is in cabot", "does anybody know the body of water that it comes out of oh no", "i was just going to say it starts on the other side", "it starts at coits pond which is a beautiful little spot and coits pond which is one of those i can get there but i can't tell you how you do it you go to kevin village and then you sort of go off that direction but it's a beautiful little spot", "and when it leaves coits pond it's you know it's about this this wide", "and i think mostly everybody knows where it enters the lake champlain which is under the bike bridge separating burlington and colchester", "so the friends we really have work in three different areas education and outreach restoration and protection and monitoring and assessment", "and i'm sorry i didn't catch your name who's going to help me with", "josh josh is going to help me move this forward so i'm not walking back and forth", "one of the things that we like to do is similar to the project that rebecca talked about among the 4towns is we really work in collaboration", "we're a small group", "i work out of my house in waterbury", "i'm part time and we have a parttime project director", "and then we hire people as we need to", "and we don't cover the entire watershed", "it is our goal to be a friend to the entire winooski watershed", "we've been most active in the portion of the watershed", "i always say if you put your thumb on montpelier and sort of drew more than a half circle but the north branch the kingsbury the upper winooski the stevens and the dog river and we've had a couple of big projects in essex and williston", "to be honest standing here in richmond tonight it's not one of the areas that we've been most active in", "we did do an outfall monitoring project here in richmond", "i think it goes back three or four years now where we were working with the town to find any pollutant discharges that were going through the stormwater system that should not have been there", "but we do always try to work in partnership at a smaller scale because people relate to the dog river the north branch they don't necessarily relate to the winooski as a whole", "josh could you go ahead and", "education we do a variety of things from talks like this", "we work with schools", "we've been doing a lot with stormwater actually going out and meeting with landowners and talking about issues there", "we do on water programs", "marie who's here her and her crew have made us breakfast when we've come through richmond on our paddling trip", "so we do a lot of a lot of different types of projects", "in the monitoring and assessment area we do water quality monitoring", "we actually have three programs active one in the headwaters one that we call the four rivers which is really barre montpelier", "and then we work with the chittenden county stream team on some of the small urban streams in the burlington south burlington williston essex area", "we've done stormwater outfall monitoring", "as i mentioned that's the major project we've done here in richmond", "and basically the way that works is we go out and we look at stormwater outfalls during dry weather", "because any discharge that's coming out of a stormwater outfall in dry weather is automatically suspect", "it doesn't necessarily end up being a problem", "in fact most of them don't", "a lot of it's groundwater infiltration", "but we did do that project here in richmond", "and we've done over the years a lot of geomorphic assessments which is a study of the physical conditions and processes of the river", "and that's really the focus of the presentation tonight is to talk about those physical processes", "restoration and protection we do a lot of riparian restoration work tree planting", "we've done some fish passage improvements on culverts and bridges stormwater related projects", "we've done a couple of you know we've done smaller projects like rain barrels and rain gardens", "we've done a couple of larger bioretention areas", "the biggest one closest to here is we did a bioretention area in front of the essex elementary school that was installed earlier this year", "and we do river cleanups", "so getting to really the and i have a publication here i'm just going to hang on to and i've got some other things over there that people can pick up after the presentation", "and the one thing i do want to say to this group here is you know like i said we haven't been active in this part of the watershed", "however we always want to work in partnership", "so if there's a project that you know any of you and i don't know what organizations you might represent or if you thought giving this talk somewhere else would be good you know get in contact with me because you know where we have a partner and can work with somebody that's a big boost to us", "in fact one of the places we're really most active now is in northfield", "and it's because everybody from the select board to the conservation commission to public works you know we've just found this really fertile working relationship there", "so we sort of find project after project to work on in northfield", "so anyway getting to living in harmony with streams we really ask a lot of our rivers you know", "from a recreational and aesthetic standpoint we want to paddle fish you know just relax along there", "we want them to provide habitat", "but we also ask them to work for us", "you know if you think about where is the flat land in vermont it's all in the river valleys", "so that's really where we've put a lot of our communities our industry our agriculture", "so some of these photos here you may be familiar with i think this is somewhere in the lamoille river", "i like this picture because first of all if you're familiar with it you know it's basically taken from my eighty nine and it's looking back at the railroad and then of course the hydro dam and then that's montpelier over there on the far side", "so let's talk a little bit about how streams work", "streams are a product of the land of their watershed", "and this diagram is really very very typical of a vermont stream or watershed", "it starts up in the steep areas that are most often still heavily wooded and they come down and you can see it's coming down very straight", "and then when it gets down to the river valleys the broader valleys it's going to start to spread out a meander", "so some of the things that define a stream is the valley slope and width", "if you've got steep bedrock narrow confined valleys you're going to have a different stream than one down in the intervale", "you know what kind of soils do you have are they permeable are they very erodible so forth and then two things that we've really greatly impacted are our land use and vegetation", "you know deep or woody deep rooted vegetation holds and absorbs water", "and we're going to talk more about that later and that reduces erosion", "land use again where we have put in our towns or villages where we've cleared land for agriculture we've changed the way water runs off the land", "and this is a really instructive slide i think", "and i usually focus on the lower one the white river", "and you can see this was the river in one thousand nine hundred and twenty four", "it was pretty straight", "and then the next version of it is in one thousand nine hundred and thirty nine", "and you can see the river looks dramatically different", "i think most people know what happened", "the big event that happened between twenty four and thirty nine was the flood of one thousand nine hundred and twenty seven", "and then looking forward from one thousand nine hundred and thirty nine you can see the river is moving and changing but it's sort of staying in the same pattern", "so one thousand nine hundred and twenty four really stands out as being very different", "and that was because the river was straightened", "the river was put there", "they said let's put it over to the side and then when you get a really big event like the flood of twenty seven or irene or some of the more localized floods that we've had over the years the river is going to go back to what it naturally wants to do", "and it naturally wants to meander", "and in a unimpacted state meaning you know that we're not clearing land or building around it the stream is moving but it's gonna move generally in a slow and a pretty predictable manner", "and the term that river sciences use is they refer to the river as being in dynamic equilibrium", "let's go ahead to the next slide", "was there a lot of dredge in there the point of partnership is trying to help it recover people putting in berms and people dredging out gravel and people", "are you talking about post irene or just in general no i'm talking about the last forty years or so that's a good question marie", "i honestly don't know the history of the white versus other rivers", "we've manipulated really a lot of our rivers", "you know i've found as i walk around i visited a landowner up in cabot talking to him about doing riparian restoration in the river behind his house and the adjacent properties is really what we call unstable", "i mean you can just see it moving around and what i speculate just sort of looking at it there and looking at it upstream is it got pushed over you know", "they wanted to put houses in the village so they pushed it over", "so the white more than others i don't know could be", "that's an interesting question i may try to follow up on that", "but the image i had there is really true of any river system", "so here's another way to look at rivers", "in this cross section look you know the low flow channel that's where so you'd see your typical sort of july august flows", "of course our summers have become anything but predictable", "so i'll just say july and august but during the drier period of the year there's a very distinct low flow channel", "and then there's what's called bankfull which is a really important term within the river science", "and this is what's called the channel forming flow", "and that's the flow that occurs with enough frequency that when you look a river and you think about well there's the bed and the banks that's the flow", "and it's typically considered to be about a two year event", "and then we get into the flood prone with and of course what people associate with floods and fema and flood insurance the flood plain which is the hundred year flood plain", "so let's go ahead", "so this may seem like a silly question but let's talk about how water gets to a stream", "and there's really two main pathways", "and one is you know it rains or the snow melts", "and typically one of two things well some of it gets used up by vegetation but as far as reaching the stream it either runs off over the surface or it sinks in to the ground and it gets there slowly via base flow via groundwater and the advantages of and we're going to come visit this a little bit later", "the advantage of the water sinking into the ground is several fold", "one it decreases localized flooding because it goes into the ground and it's also purified that way", "water that runs over the ground particularly if it's agricultural or urban or lawn it's going to pick up a lot of pollutants and a lot of sediments on its way to the streams", "so let's talk a little bit more about how we've impacted our streams", "and since we were talking about the white the tweed is a tributary of the white and that's the topographical map that you see", "i'm just going to reach over here a little bit but i think most people here probably know how to read topographical maps", "so what you know is this lighter shaded area is the flatter area of the valley", "and going back thinking about how the river wants to meander this is the area that it had to meander in before we began to manipulate it", "and now what you see we've done there and this is pretty typical and you see it on eighty nine between burlington and montpelier", "we've put roads in we've put railroads in", "and basically the river has been moved over to one side of it's valley and we're containing it there", "and that's something that i really like to point to is this isn't just about the ecology of the stream", "this is also about economics and how much money we're going to continue to spend to try to lock our rivers in place", "and now we've certainly committed ourselves in some ways", "i'm not naive enough to think we're going to take all our infrastructure all our towns out of our valleys", "but where we have opportunities going forward we need to think about the economics of doing this", "because this is where we really get ourselves in conflict", "and in big events like irene the flood of twenty seven and the smaller localized events some of which occurred this year you know that's where our damage occurs", "so you can also look here and this i believe is in the lamoille", "you can really see how that river is confined in there", "we have the roads we have a railroad going over and if we want to maintain these roads where they are you can bet they're going to be armoring and fixing that bank for a long long time to come", "and these are just some closer pictures there of where we've armored banks we've dredged and we've really managed the rivers", "another really chronic problem that we have is we have undersized our stream crossings", "so if you look at the photo here you can really visualize how wide that stream is", "and at this low flow condition it can narrow itself down and make it into that pipe", "but this is again what causes us so many problems in big events is when the amount of water can't make it into that pipe what's it going to do it's going to take out the road it's going to take out the culvert", "and a lot of our they may be set this way or they may become this way", "these also present significant problems from an aquatic organism a fishpassage standpoint", "if you look at the one on the lower your right i mean if you were a fish and you were trying to move upstream would you want to encounter that have you guys are ever looking for another very good speaker rich kern who's a fish biologist for fish and wildlife", "he has this video that's very hard to watch of trout trying to get throwing themselves up against a culvert to get through", "so coming back to that diagram we had earlier this is the same one we were looking at earlier", "so you can see there the relative amount of surface runoff to base flow and then the one on the right you can see we've altered the landscape", "so we've put in some hard surfaces there's lawn which is typically very compacted", "the roots aren't very deep", "water runs off of lawn at a very high rate", "so you can see we've really shifted that balance between what runs off and what makes it into the ground and gets to the river slowly", "and a lot of times when you think about the localized flooding you know small urban streams it's a lot of because we've changed that balance", "that these streams are gonna rise very rapidly", "and it's also why we're also going to have potentially more drought and lowflow conditions during dry periods because water is not making it in to the aquifer and getting to the river slowly", "and this is another way to think about did i hear someone ask okay i thought i heard that someone asking a question", "this is a hydrograph and what this is demonstrating is in a predevelopment or an undeveloped natural state you can see when a storm comes along you know the river rises you know it still might rise fairly quickly", "but it peaks out much much lower", "and then it goes down where and this is the discharge so this is your flow over here", "in a developed environment where you've got a lot of hard surfaces where the water is going to run off very quickly", "you can see it rises very quickly and to a much greater level", "and again that's the kind of you know when we see damage to our infrastructure", "so if you talk with river scientists you'll hear them talk a lot about the channel evolution model", "so here we have a stable stream and we have this nice flat land next to the stream", "it's also really nice to live next to water", "so somebody built their house there", "and then they were getting flooded", "so they're like okay we don't want to get flooded so what they did was they built a berm there", "that's what those little black marks are", "so now the water can't get out and onto the flood plain where it slows down it loses its energy", "so it's gonna stay contained in the channel", "and the power of water has to go somewhere", "so what it's going to do here since it can't get out and dissipate that energy it's going to start digging down", "and this is where you begin to see those really steep unstable banks i'm sure all of you have seen them somewhere", "and eventually you start to get the erosional damage", "most flood damage in vermont is erosional damage", "it's not the traditional inundation flooding although that certainly does happen but it's where infrastructure gets overwhelmed", "we can no afford to protect it or it just happens too quickly", "so in this case the house topples in", "let's say it was bought out and nothing was put in its place", "so now what you can see is the river is starting to sort of shift and move again", "and when you get back down here i'd ask you to look at this picture versus this one up here", "and basically what you see is the river's back where it wants to be but it's lowered itself", "you know it's had to work its way down and restabilize at a lower level", "and i know from doing a lot of the geomorphic assessments in the winooski we have a lot of rivers that are in these stages here", "they're in sizing and they're widening", "there's a couple of sections of the upper winooski i've been watching that i think are finally starting to stabilize", "but this is something that's going to take a lot of years and limiting impacts to what's happening there", "let's go ahead", "so we've sort of got ourselves in this cycle where we've put infrastructure next to our rivers", "we need to protect it", "so we spend money to protect it", "we have floods and we have property damage", "so we come back in and we spend more money", "we do some dredging berming", "we certainly do armoring of banks where we have infrastructure to protect", "and then the cycle starts all over again", "what we're hopefully starting to get a little bit better about is on the encroachment side and just learning that we can save ourselves a lot of trouble a lot of money and make the rivers a lot happier if we stay out of their way where there are opportunities to do so", "so that we do have opportunities and one is to protect corridors where that opportunity still exists", "and what this is showing here is the gray line is the river the dotted area here it's called the fluvial erosion hazard zone because i took this out of a state document but that's that area that the river wants to meander", "so you can see what's been calculated is sort of what is that belt with", "where's does the river want to move and then the further line out is the toe or the edge of the valley", "so if we have opportunities to protect that dotted area and keep infrastructure out of there that will allow the river to flood without doing much damage", "another is to improve stream crossings", "the photo in the upper right is the same one i showed you earlier which was a round concrete undersized culvert a lot of movement towards i mean bridges are ideal but bridges are expensive", "there's a lot of these bottomless culvert designs that you can see this as much better sized to the size of the stream that we want to send through it", "and the other thing for this from a fish's standpoint that's a natural bottom and that's going to be a natural flow", "so it's also better from an ecological standpoint", "one more frustrating things i saw post irene i was out at a site and a culvert had gotten blown out and the old culvert was laying about forty feet away", "and it had been replaced with exactly the same sized culvert", "part of those problems as i understand came from the way fema reimburses is they would reimburse what was there", "they wouldn't necessarily reimburse the step up", "and one thing you know with any event like irene you know opportunities come and i know there's been a lot of movement by vtrans to better size the infrastructure and a lot of towns have and i have no idea about any of the towns here have begun to adopt you know these higher standards for when they do replace the infrastructure that they're going to replace it with something that is better sized to this stream", "and based upon the guidance of the river management folks at the state", "just to stand up for people they actually can have permissions for right sizing culverts", "in many cases sometimes the towns don't understand that and they think they're just going to replace what's there but they actually have provisions for rightsizing and there's a lot of details involved but if the town has adopted the codes and standards so that they would if they were doing it themselves they would upgrade it to the right size and fema will pay for that upsizing", "and there's a whole it's called hazard mitigation and there's a formula to that", "and they can add on a certain amount of money to those things", "so it's just a matter of how fast and how wellversed the fema representative is in those things", "and i think initially there was some resistance with fema to support paying for some of the upsides culverts", "but i think our congressional delegation actually provided some assistance in that area because it's just so obvious that you do need to have a bigger culvert and not to upgrade when you need to and you know not back the towns and doing that and back the state", "and fema actually produced a little film talking about some of the innovative stuff they did especially in the rochester area and working with the forest service and some other things to really improve the fish passage", "and you have other states like new hampshire", "things are also adopting standards for fish passage and other things", "so yeah", "i know in some areas and you spoke of rochester and i don't know if this was one in particular but the us fish and wildlife service put a lot of people in their postirene", "and i think that's why a lot of things did get done that way as well as with the forest service", "and yeah going back to your comment about fema there were some people in fema that were pushing for that were pushing for it too but all parts of fema don't always talk to all the others", "well that's what i've heard a lot of i didn't have a lot of direct contact with fema but when i talked with people in different agencies and representatives in different towns some of it came down to who they were dealing with in fema", "and so but there were a lot of cases", "i don't think it was as bad after irene as it was after previous floods but there a lot of stuff that got replaced at the same site", "oh yeah and it always happens", "so but i think we did learn a great deal", "i remember sitting in meetings and we were talking more about fish passage and i was there with you know the state fish and wildlife department and vtrans", "and there was sort of this sense of abyss between the two agencies", "and i think in the last two to three years that that has changed quite a bit", "and i think that there is a lot more cooperation between them", "so that's very heartening to see", "but i would also say that really there's been a really good working relationship in the past decade with various departments in those agencies", "and do you work for one of these agencies yeah i worked for fish and wildlife and we've we've had a great working relationship with fish and wildlife working on this passage", "there may be certain sectors within vtrans that maybe hadn't completely bought in but i know planning had bought in", "yeah going back at least almost ten years ago", "and then brian environmental planning and maybe some of the structural engineers hadn't completely bought in yet", "and then irene fema the environmental section was pushing very hard to get these fishpassages through and to work with the agencies to get this", "but they weren't always successful either within you know what there were people pushing for it", "because it only makes sense that you repair all at once instead of repair it multiple times", "and ever since james lee witt was the head of fema back in the clinton era they've been pushing more hazard mitigation so that you don't have to repair things over and over and over again", "so it's just you know it's totally well", "it takes a while but that is every project has to be reviewed to see if there's a mitigation opportunity", "that's good to hear", "so let's go ahead and go on", "what areas will you spend a lot of time on is improving riparian buffers", "a lot of we work with mostly private landowners on this because the bulk of the land in the winooski is privately owned", "that is one huge difference between the winooski and the white is that there is a lot of state and federally owned land in the white", "so we work a lot with individual landowners", "so we're very dependent upon willing land owners who with or without compensation through a state or federal program would be willing to give up some of their property", "we work on and we all need to work on is better managing stormwater", "sorry in the previous slide you said you improved the riparian buffer", "what do you do what is the work you do mostly we do planting trees native trees and shrubs", "we've had one project where we did do bank grading", "and that gets real expensive real fast", "with this and this is one of the hardest things in dealing with landowners", "you got to look at this at the long haul", "you know when i go out and talk to landowners and they're like oh yeah we want to get trees because we're losing land we're not going to solve that problem in the next few years", "it's got to be looked at over the long haul", "let's go ahead", "so managing stormwater is another area", "and i think one of the you know there's a lot of focus on stormwater in the greater burlington area st alban's rutland because those are regulated areas", "they're under stormwater permits", "but stormwater is an issue everywhere", "and one of the things that's really been recognized i think more recently is what i call rural stormwater which is coming off of coming out of village centers coming out of developed land", "dirt roads have been recognized as a significant source of erosion and sedimentation", "let's go ahead", "so these are things that we can do to get ourselves out of this cycle but we do have to ask ourselves i think some really hard questions", "we have to ask you know what are we going to require of landowners whether they're farmers developers smaller landowners what are we going to pay for from public funds are we going to incentivize people are we gonna require farmers to put buffers in or are we going to incentivize them to do that and where are we going to get that money from and then what are we going to do voluntarily you know is education enough so we have some things to think about here and has anybody ever seen this i thought that maybe you two had yeah this is a map that someone from the state from the river management section has maintained going back to one thousand nine hundred and seventy three", "and i think what it illustrates is sort of how short our memories are", "i think you know this group here is pretty conscious of things but the only thing that was unusual about irene was how widespread it was", "if you look carefully at the dates on that map you can see that there's a damaging flood event", "i don't know what the average works out to be", "maybe every five seven eight years and they seem to come more and more frequently", "and if you were to go up to plainfield or marshfield or barre and ask them you know what was the worst flood event of two thousand and eleven it wasn't irene", "it was the end of may", "and so it's something that we really need to think about", "and precipitation patterns are changing", "and we do have to sort of going back to the discussion we were just having a little bit is we have to get more people within those areas that are making those decisions to understand that we're going to be facing more and more of this", "and we need to turn things around pretty quickly", "so there's one last slide that i'll just let you read yourselves", "that's it i don't know if there's any questions or", "you guys have been doing any work with with invasive removal such as japanese knotweed", "we do invasive management on sites where we're doing riparian restoration and we don't go in necessarily with the intent that we're going to eradicate something that's there", "but what we're trying to do since we're trying to reestablish native vegetation is we're trying to keep the invasives at bay until our vegetation can get established", "because if you commit yourself to eradication it's sort of beyond our means to be perfectly honest", "so we do try to manage it on those sites so that our what we've planted isn't going to get outcompeted by what's there", "branching on that question", "is there a difference between the invasives and the natural vegetation as far as retention capabilities isn't the knotweed better at holding the soil no knotweed is terrible at holding soil", "it's shallow rooted it's very shallow rooted", "when the bottomless culper thinking about the construction of that is there a footing near the edges of the my understanding and i'm sorry your name you might know more", "everett everett there's a variety of structures as i understand it", "and i've seen the ones like that that i think they come down and they sort of have a a concrete pad and then it ties into that", "and then that's buried a certain amount below the ground", "a lot of that or some of that those newer approaches were pioneered by i believe the forest service", "we're looking at for one structure we are hoping to replace in marshfield we're actually looking at a prefab bridge", "normally a bridge would just be totally outside the budget but they and they can carry a firetruck because they could carry a logging truck", "so usually to be honest where we've done fish passage well not usually always we hire an engineer and i rely on them", "and to some extent the folks that i work with from the us fish and wildlife service to evaluate what's the best option for a given stream", "i don't ever have you had any experience with those i don't know if i have much to add to that because that's not my area", "oh okay yeah i would point out one thing interesting is that this area richmond was actually affected most severely by the inundation event", "so it was in let's see in two thousand and eleven", "it was in the spring yeah but the lake was no but no it was no it wasn't", "it was irene but the towns the hilltop towns were affected mostly by the spring event where we get the big rains", "and that followed up again this past year with similar events where we were getting", "you know big rain events in our in our hilltop towns", "so we're getting erosion events", "any other questions where does your funding come from if you're going to a homeowner or landowners to plant native vegetation where does that money come from it comes from a variety of sources", "our biggest sources for plant material are in the headwaters", "cabot creamery has funded a lot of work in the headwaters", "we get some funding through the state", "if we can get certain agreements from the landowner we can get money through us fish and wildlife", "i've also gotten some private foundation funding through green mountain coffee roasters", "but if anybody's worked for a small nonprofit you know you're always chasing money", "so it's a variety of sources and then broader for the organization", "you know we do fundraising from individuals from businesses", "well in that vein you might point out that tomorrow is giving tuesday which is the new national holiday after black friday small business saturday cyber monday and now it's giving tuesday oh i have heard of this", "it's time to give back to maybe you can let people know where to send their donations", "a question in the back there", "oh that's right", "yeah thank you", "yeah i did work with well really through the 4towns to put in a grant application to the lake champlain basin program to do stormwater education", "again it's this idea of what i call it rural stormwater but the idea that it's not just burlington and the greater burlington area but we need to look at village centers", "we need to look at runoff from private properties in more you know spread out settings", "and so the application went in and i think it's february before we find out", "just make the observation and maybe ask a question", "i think our planning commission here in richmond is working on flood zone regulations has been for a while", "i have a clear account planner up here but i'm kind of curious to know if any other members of our planning commission are here to hear this no it's a little disappointing to me", "well in all effect they may have heard this from the regional planning commission", "there may have been other sources of this information i don't know", "a couple of years ago i'm sorry regional planning commission came a couple of years ago", "but it's always good for few commission members to care and handbooks to be reminded", "so i think that will be coming soon because chapter one hundred and seventeen does require town plans to now have a fluvial erosion planning section", "so it's an important component and one that i think towns are going to be looking at for no other reason than it's a requirement in the town plan", "and there was some discussion that there would be incentives tied to towns that adopted certain standards", "is that true yeah that's what they said to us for reimbursement for highway repair related expenses in the case of flooding events", "so the state is creating systems to incentivize municipalities to adopt more rigorous standards", "yeah i think one of the handicaps is the what they call the fluvial erosion hazard zones are based upon having done geomorphic studies which are very very time intensive", "and i know i've sort of lost track of this", "i know the state was looking at a way to do you know sort of quicker", "i don't want to call them down and dirty but you know once where i mean because literally the way geomorphic studies have been done is you go walk the stream and i've done it with consultants and you go at the pace of about a mile a day to gather and that's just a gathering of data", "so there needs to be a way", "so towns can really adopt it on a stream level", "there needs to be a faster way to get to that information", "and i don't know if there's been much progress on that huntington has done a study environmental did a study a few years back", "it was pre irene and irene both fortunately and unfortunately was a great seller of the importance of protecting fluvial erosion hazard zone", "well they probably did it under the existing geomorphic program if they did it", "yes they did three four years ago", "and richmond also had maps done fluvial erosion maps done at that time", "yeah i know that was one of the concerns", "a lot of the manooski's been done", "we were involved with a lot of that not either of those but more in the upper part of winooski but i know there were concerns in the southern part of the state that they didn't have as much data captured", "so even if towns wanted to create these zones they didn't necessarily have i mean they could still create an exclusion zone but whether or not it was sort of based on the science of understanding what the river was going to do", "they didn't necessarily have that data at hand", "well thank you all for coming", "i do have some publications", "i do have a copy of this is the publication that this is based on", "and this is just a little bit about the friends and then a couple other things here and you can just take them", "this is a publication by the state it doesn't it has i think a horrible name", "it's called vermont low impact development guide for residential and small sites", "basically what it is is his techniques that you can use around your home or another smaller property to manage stormwater", "talks about everything from rain barrels and cisterns to rain gardens and vegetated swales", "i know they're looking to reprint this once we can give these all away and i told them you've gotta have a catchier title than that", "and then this is something that was just produced by the vermont river conservancy which is really a series of essays on different aspects of rivers management and understanding rivers", "so feel free", "vermont river conservancy or i'm sorry vermont natural resources council", "i worked with both of them", "sorry i got interchangeable there", "yeah it is", "well thank you so much ann"], "name": ["Living_in_Harmony_with_Streams_-_Science_to_Action/Living_in_Harmony_with_Streams_-_Science_to_Action/Living_in_Harmony_with_Streams_-_Science_to_Action_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "Living_in_Harmony_with_Streams_-_Science_to_Action/Living_in_Harmony_with_Streams_-_Science_to_Action/Living_in_Harmony_with_Streams_-_Science_to_Action_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "Living_in_Harmony_with_Streams_-_Science_to_Action/Living_in_Harmony_with_Streams_-_Science_to_Action/Living_in_Harmony_with_Streams_-_Science_to_Action_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "Living_in_Harmony_with_Streams_-_Science_to_Action/Living_in_Harmony_with_Streams_-_Science_to_Action/Living_in_Harmony_with_Streams_-_Science_to_Action_DOT_flac_00003.flac", 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thirty on march 16th two thousand and fifteen", "time for the town of richmond water and sewer commission meeting", "hello", "welcome members of the commission and members of the public and members of the town staff", "before we get underway tonight's agenda we have an executive session to talk about the yes", "before we get underway i'm walking through the oh okay", "agenda though", "potential contract with riverview commons", "the other business is a west main extension bormann water allocation", "i don't know if we should be calling it bormann or a brewery but for now we'll call it both", "we know what you're talking about", "state planning loan and water storage tanks superintendent's report", "review the budget and annual meeting any sewer freezing issues", "so we're gonna follow up on that", "approval of warrants", "has anybody had a chance to start looking at warrants yet any volunteers whoever jeff says", "and then the next agenda and adjourn", "so back to the top", "public comment", "any comments from the public yes please", "maureen", "can you hear me really absolutely", "okay", "with power comes responsibility", "how on earth can people living in the mobile park homes be expected to come up with the incredible fees associated with hooking on water andor sewer we the village people could not afford the increases in our watersewer bills and many of us live on our own patch of land", "thank you for that excellent question and that is in fact the subject of negotiations with the mobile home park", "so we'll see", "it's not lost on us of course that the mobile home park has a water system and a sewer system", "it's not clear that they can afford what they have as opposed to the alternative which is hooking up to the town", "so it's not a question of nothing versus something", "it's a something they have versus hooking up with us", "and the details remain to be seen", "if it's not affordable it in my opinion won't happen", "other comments from the public all right", "our first agenda item", "we have scheduled half an hour to go into executive session to discuss in fact maureen's comment about the potential contract with riverview common", "so i'll entertain a motion to go into executive session", "we're going to executive session", "second all in favor aye", "aye", "it's unanimous we are now in executive session", "we will be in executive session with extended staff including pete poshop taylor yates who is also a representative on the negotiating group and jeff and kendall", "for those of you who weren't here we were in executive session to discuss a potential contract with riverview commons", "i will now entertain a motion to exit executive session", "so moved", "second", "aye", "should we go back here since we have or are we still doing these did you say aye too i did", "thank you", "sure", "so we exit executive session", "i will just make a comment then return to any other public comments that we continue negotiations with the mobile home park in terms of affordability feasibility", "this is for those of you who followed this the full phase one two three extension of watersewer", "and we remain cautiously optimistic that we'll be able to execute a contract but we won't know until we get through the details of negotiation", "it really hinges on the details including costs", "maureen asked a question in an earlier public comment about how they can afford it", "the wild card for them is they currently have a water system and a sewer system which have had some deficiencies in the past and represent some costs to them", "so the cost of those systems compared to the cost of hooking up to the town", "we are negotiating the costs of hooking up to the town but we're in a position of not knowing what their costs are in terms of operating their own systems so", "i think it'd be fair to say it's gonna cost them a little bit more than it does now", "well we don't know that", "it's gonna be unfavorable", "it might be less more the same", "so it really is just a wild card", "that's the down card in their hand", "and we don't know what the value of that card is", "all right let me return back to are there public comments before we get back into the agenda all right", "so that was essentially the west main extension update includes that element", "and for those of you who know did the bond pass is there any news on the bond recount jeff a recount was requested late friday afternoon", "our attorney mark sperry says that there's no hour set for the end of the day but the common consensus is that a day ends at midnight", "so we're considering the recount request a valid request", "it was timely", "friday was the last day to be able to enter it", "linda has scheduled the board of civil authority to meet this thursday evening at six", "and the recount will start at six hundred and thirty", "and they'll do a hand recount to look at every ballot", "they'll see if it's a yes or a no", "come up with another tally", "they'll probably count and recount and check and double check and come up with an end tally and that'll be the result", "what time does that start the recount starts at six hundred and thirty", "the bca is reorganizing at six", "i thought we dodged that bullet", "well this is a recount not a revote", "yeah i know", "so it was a close vote clearly", "there were mixed opinions in the town", "it wasn't a hundred to zero or zero to one hundred", "so this was the next step", "jack what is the mechanics of this do they have to get a certain number of people that ask for the recount or just one person out of the blue comes in and says i want a recount you got it", "one person out of the blue can request a recount", "jack could you tell us your name again please oh excuse me", "jack flynn", "are you writing my name down so yeah", "are you taking comments on the i'll take comments on anything", "welcome to public comment revisited", "yeah", "what's your name again sir terry", "nice to meet you even though i've never seen you before", "i have some questions that i hope that you will answer", "a tough one", "and i'd just like to lay out some of those questions", "because there's things that i'd like to know before you sign the contract with the park", "and my concern is that longterm we may be reducing our chances to have a really vibrant village if we take on the park now", "maybe not for ten years or something", "so from what i learned recently from the state is that it may be very difficult to expand this plan for what we need moving forward", "and even though it looks like we have way more well capacity than we want to have i think we should find out if that's true", "what i learned is that under the new regulations with cleaning up the lake it may be very difficult to do upgrades on plans", "and if we did get the permission to do it it'd be a multimillion dollar upgrade", "so i guess here's just kind of a list of some things i'd like to know", "the questions about the mobile home park is the need real from what i was told from the state was that the problem is the design was a bed design rather than a trench design for the septic", "because about the trench design allowing oxygen in in the spaces where there aren't trenches is sometimes there is a problem", "but the fix might be to put in a new trench system", "either dig out the bed system or find a new location onsite", "so it'd be nice to know if we're solving a problem that can't be solved there or whether it's a real need that we take this on", "i'd like to know what the increased cost on the mobile home park users gonna be", "and the flip side to that is i'd like to know what the new current users are gonna be paying to allow that lower rate to go to the users down there", "i don't think many people in the village can take on what to me feels like a subsidy to support what might be a good cause but can i answer that one which we addressed i think in our last meeting", "which is we passed a resolution that we would not extend the line unless it represented a rate benefit to the existing users", "but see that's two different things", "i think it should be the same rate down there as it is for us", "in terms of one mobile home versus one apartment here", "those people should pay the same rate", "so if there's a deal i really doesn't know what that deal is and have a chance for public comment before you sign it", "i think all the terms of the contract in terms of length of agreement whether it's permanent or termed in years how future entries are gonna be handled how bonds are gonna be handled should be answered", "questions about the sewer plant", "again we do go over the eighty load of the phosphorus", "i was told by the state it could be hundreds of thousands up to maybe twelve million to do the phosphorus upgrade", "terry i'm sorry to interrupt but we had like one minute for public comment", "are there a lot more i'm sorry to interrupt but no i'll try to do it quicker", "let's see", "so i guess my real concern is that if we use up space down there we may find ourselves we can't expand in the village", "we can't take care of the future needs of the village", "the one thing i think to analyze is to look at what are the foreseeable future needs and i think we should hear from people like what's the future needs of the gate line what are the people that own that property thinking they need what about potential projects in the village whether peach wants to develop a space behind the rescue project", "whether they have an interest in developing can we predict how many houses are gonna be flipped into duplexes what's going to happen to the creamery is the brewery likely to expand down the road and how much reserve capacity should we be looking at keeping before we commit to somewhere like putting it in the mobile home park", "i'll stop there", "all right", "so it's obviously a range of things", "so if you have it in written format and you want to give it to us i can share that with the rest of the commission as well", "are there other public comments yes in the back", "can you tell us who asked for the recount friskie whitters", "thank you", "you have a question ma'am yeah i'm on the conservation commission", "i second some of gary's concerns particularly about infill whether that would make more sense from the economic strength of the village", "and also i have concerns because i live adjacent to the park and i'm not a big fan of peter brown", "or just to scrutinize the contract and consider things like the inevitable costs and other things", "thank you", "so we have heard and then saw the contract", "and sort of transparency accountability", "and that would be our intent", "you know the executive session is til we get to the point of a contract that we're both willing to sign", "and at that point we'd be able to talk in more detail", "so a couple of concerns and then just one other response", "it is interesting to me that in my relatively short time on the commission people have been talking about the significant need to get more users on after the closing of the creamery sixteen seventeen years ago and sort of get more users on now to alleviate rates", "you know we were talking about the basic ways that we can alleviate rates for the current users", "it's stop spending money find free money somewhere or get more users on", "to get more flow more users", "and so the mobile home park and the gateway were viewed as two different ways of getting more users", "and you write the comments reflect that there's somewhat different goals in mind", "the goal for the mobile home park is somewhat different than a goal of supporting responsible development in the gateway", "and perhaps other areas in town", "but kendall maybe illustrate again where we are with current watersewage capacity", "what percent capacity we can use and how far we are from that maybe just put that on the record", "roughly thirty five", "and at eighty you're required to claim for an upgrade", "so you've got is that forty five so not just one hundred of maximum engineered capacity we were less than fifty of the allowed capacity currently", "when was the last time we were close to capacity the creamery way way back", "which is one of the things that's driven rates again with a modest number of users paying for with a modest flow of paying for the entire system", "so there were some tensions here", "if we raise the flow by one hundred and fifty to two hundred and fifty users how close are we gonna be according to pete's i guess i'll say i can't quote that off the top of my head but all those numbers that are in the report is on the website", "and i think that was discussed in other meetings also", "i think that again i can't remember off the top of my head what those numbers were i apologize", "i was hoping someone would remember them", "yeah i know", "i don't have that with me but it seemed like we had plenty of room though", "yes correct", "so that's my question", "if we do have two hundred more houses", "two hundred and fifty yeah", "or two hundred and fifty", "is there more plenty of more room in capacity there was still headroom according to the report", "well the state told me that we'd probably have to reduce septage intake", "so that is one of our headroom capacity is to reduce septage intake which is voluntary not required so when you figure out the count relation you've got to factor in the septage intake", "which has been lucrative", "yeah i know", "and it doesn't affect the bottom line", "there's another back here was that something that's always been consistent yes", "predicted", "if we got closer to where we're reaching a capacity perhaps there would be an incentive for using less water", "there's no incentive for me to cut down my water usage right now because of the way the bills are set up", "and if we were reaching that capacity then the local users could really make an effect by putting lowflush toilets and have less use", "but i have no incentive to lower my usage", "i feel so high on the not the usage part but the other part", "the base rate the base rate yeah", "and all that's changed though", "yeah you know you'd have to look at individual bills to figure out the base versus flow rates and i'm not prepared to analyze any individual bill", "and there's commercial", "commercial rate structure is different from residential rate structure", "that's true", "so we've just accomplished what might be the west main extension update", "we continue negotiations with the mobile home park", "it's only two weeks or so since the bond passed", "and so we maintain cautious optimism that we can negotiate something that's mutually beneficial for phase one two and three", "if we're unable to do that we'll revisit", "are there possibilities of making this work through just phases one and two any other comments questions all right", "let's move on", "item b is mormon water allocation and brewery", "we have talked about this so maybe if you want to come forward and we can talk about why you're here and what the context of conversation is", "so if you could introduce yourself and what you represent", "bret hamilton stone corral brewery", "thanks for coming", "and thank you for having us here", "so where to begin the wastewater permitting process we're currently in with the state has been a little bit on the dynamic side", "things are developing as we all learn about the project and learn about state regulations", "we're going to need according to the state's engineers we're going to need more wastewater allocation than we currently have", "we understand that there's also concern about concentration of waste water from the treatment perspective and wanted to address that", "in part by introducing at least the philosophy and some of the basic mechanisms in our wastewater reduction plan", "if that would be a good place to start", "there are a lot of folks on the commission", "maybe back up and just describe the effluent of brewery and what might anticipate comes out of the brewery as opposed to i think we all understand generally what comes out of a residential user septic system", "yep so traditionally brewing is a very water intensive process", "there's a lot of cleaning that happens", "and in the past almost all of the cleaning water has hit the sewer drain", "in more recent times that's improved", "but this can include everything from basically when you're making beer the very first thing you do is steep grain in water and it basically makes a very sticky mess", "you run water through that into another kettle", "and from there into a heat exchanger into another so there's a whole series of tanks", "so you can basically picture sticky sugary liquid flowing at different temperatures from tank to tank throughout the process", "if there's no wastewater management either in architecture or planning in place then there's a lot of sticky sugary water that can get washed down the drain", "and it's at a very high concentration or high demand for bod", "basically capacity on the wastewater treatment plant to the tune of tens or even hundreds of times the strength of regular household waste", "could you just for clarity for folks what bod stands for it's biodynamic oxygen demand is that correct close enough", "thank you", "it's essentially the amount of oxygen that's required to metabolize for the bacteria and treatment plant", "to metabolize the waste into something that's less harmful less harmful in the environment", "and the reason that we're concerned about that is because we're dumping that waste into a waterway", "it's gonna deplete the oxygen in the streams or the rivers which is gonna basically kill wildlife and include the water", "so we want to avoid that", "so i understand you met with kendall earlier today to review your design and what would come out of it", "do i understand correctly that one of the things you do is create infrastructure to reduce both volume and density or the quality of the effluent", "yeah absolutely", "there are architectural or mechanical strategies", "there are philosophical strategies", "and then there's sort of daily operating procedure", "stone corral brewery was begun essentially in a sugar house where we move water by the bucket", "water and wastewater both", "personally i've spent my entire adult working life working in energy efficiency and conservation", "so philosophically doing less with more protecting the waterways and saving energy are all part of our core operating philosophy", "architecturally there are two strategies in our wastewater management plan", "well three actually", "they're worth mentioning here", "one is that we want to divert all of our high strength waste offsite basically to farms", "there are spent grains initial washdown of all of the sticky sugary mess that i described earlier", "all that has high value as nutritious animal feed", "there's another solid wasteish flow spent yeast and and actually what otherwise might be considered spilled beer can also be directed toward farms for either soil supplement or animal feed", "there are a number of different acceptable uses for that waste stream", "the architectural components have to do with the fact that the brewery equipment doesn't have physical connection to a drain", "it's not possible to empty a tank by opening a valve and have the contents go straight to the city drain", "there either has to be a hose involved or a person to actually connect the hose and direct the waste where it's gonna go", "so in terms of accidental discharge if there's any accidental discharge it's going to be on the floor before it's in the drain", "the next architectural in terms of engineering architecture our strategy", "kendall and i have been brainstorming a little bit on good ways to avoid what might be considered a worst case scenario", "something goes horribly wrong and we need to empty a tank quickly", "and a tank full of beer", "so in terms of bod", "if we can go back to the technical piece household wastewater has a bod of three hundred milligrams per liter", "just remember the number three hundred", "beer has a bod impact of sixty thousand milligrams per liter", "so if you go home in the evening and take a lesser quality fermented product and decide to clean the drain with it that content has a high impact on the wastewater treatment plant", "so strategy that we worked out with pete and heidi bormann and kendall was we're going to actually locate a five hundred gallon we're calling it a calamity tank on the site", "so if we need to empty a tank quickly it has a safe place to go", "and so that volume of material could then be stored until it can be safely either removed from the site in a truck to a farm or even dosed into the septic system at an acceptable rate over time", "nice", "there was i think one other strategy worth mentioning here", "those are the main things", "philosophically we're really into conserving water and reducing waste", "we want to redirect our high strength waste offsite to places where it's a lot more useful than in the city plant", "and you know we want to have a sound plan in place for unforeseen events", "this sounds great", "kendall anything you want to add as the operator just that this is exactly what we're looking for", "i did send out an email", "there was a lot of discussion about the high strength waste and the potential for you know potentially ten times or more than a domestic waste", "but as i mentioned in the email the current structure does not differentiate between office buildings or restaurants or any of the other facilities", "and a wellrun brewery can easily meet a one thousand five hundred value for bod which is comparable to your restaurant", "so the way that he's got set up i think he should probably not worry about high strength waste to begin with", "additional load if you want", "additional charges or fees to start with", "probably part of their permit will involve some sampling in order to check the actual strength of separate wastewater pumps in the facility", "and we can always test it for a year or so", "and if his operation is as proposed there will be no problem", "it'll be just like everybody else", "if it did turn out that he had high strength waste at that point after they've had their business chance to get up and going and get established and stuff we would talk about additional surcharges", "okay", "just curious what kind of scenario would cause you to dump a tank yeah i mean if there was a safety issue with a failed hose or failed valve certainly if there were a vessel of hot liquid that was leaking we'd want to deal with that quickly before somebody got hurt", "spoilage happens", "so if there's something that's just you know unacceptable from a quality control standpoint that's a brewer's calamity", "it's a calamity", "i think those are the sort of the major equipment failure and contamination", "you know if somebody drops the wrong chemical or something in the wrong place and it ends up somehow in the product", "with the pressure yeah", "so at a previous meeting we had approved a water allocation", "so the request tonight is this for additional water or for water treatment or sewage sewage", "so we're allocation", "so the specific request do we know well so the state has told us that we need one thousand one hundred gallons of wastewater capacity", "this assumes that we basically do all of the steps of brewing from grain to glass or grain to keg in one day", "because that's how larger breweries operate", "yes", "they're basically doing everything all at once", "with the space that we have realistically and the market that we have to be frank about it we're going to start out brewing one day a week", "we might eventually be able to get up to where we're brewing three days a week but we're not bottling and doing wash down and cleaning out fermenters and dumping yeast all at the same time that we're brewing", "so first of all i guess i would challenge that assumption that one thousand one hundred gallons is the right number", "the second thing is is what i alluded to earlier which is we have a pretty efficient process where we were have been located because of necessity frankly", "if we generate a lot of wastewater we have to deal with it", "our projections for longterm for wastewater are a little over half of what the state is saying", "so they say we need one thousand one hundred gallons per day", "i think we're fine at about six hundred for the brewery", "and then another couple of hundred for wash water for the tasting room", "we're already there", "so i guess what we need to come to terms with is is what's the right number if we assume that as i tend to that everybody's wrong and that models are bracketing reality somehow my guess is that what we need is something like in between where we think we'll be and where the state says we will be", "if we split that we ended up with about nine hundred which i think is where we are", "is that correct nine hundred and eighty five something like that", "so i think part of this conversation is about what's the right number and as kendall said we're open to the notion of metering", "and if we find that we're going drastically past measurably past what we're allocated we'd be open to revisiting it", "we just would rather not have to pay up front for water and wastewater that we're not going to use and generate", "are there issues with our allocation kendall and are we driven to allocate what the state has said we should allocate kendall i think essentially that argument will come down to brett and the state based on the information and whether we support it or we don't", "okay", "and if we had metering and bod testing that would influence future permits i would think so", "i mean at this point i think you're going to have to talk with your engineers and have a good conversation with the state", "as far as the state says x and we say y and unfortunately these conversations are happening in parallel", "sure", "so do we need to make a decision here today the commission i guess my two cents would be to get them an approval for the allocation they need if it turns out they need more", "well additional approval bob doesn't want to give them a blank check", "this is a question to the board and to you", "could we do an addendum to the allocation you must have everything you just said to us summarized in writing correct i do yeah", "if you could do an addendum to your allocation with the supporting documentation of that report with a clause in there that you would be responsible for any cleanup costs for high bod discharge", "is that something we can do i don't know", "i'm asking the question generally", "well it strikes me that the catastrophe tank is intended to avoid that", "right", "so we're not looking at a catastrophic influx heavily loaded", "so you have to have that in place", "so is there something beyond that yes no maybe don't know", "well initially the request for allocation was the state said he needs x gallons more in order to proceed with his permit", "you're contesting that", "our issue is that we allocate their formula", "that basically we're doing this every day", "so in other words we're going to be taking in and putting out that same amount every day that much", "and we just don't need that much sewer", "yes", "so that's what we would like to have addressed", "just that we don't need that much allocation", "and that would be measurable if do we know what's going in off the water exactly", "well we talked a little bit this morning about actually metering the sewer right", "because our sewage is gonna be a much smaller volume than the typical user with relation to our water consumption", "because most of our water consumption almost half of our water consumption will be leaving on trucks", "either to a farm or to a distribution", "yeah exactly", "we might have to revisit this down the road", "you might need more allocation", "heck yeah", "so i guess what we're looking for is something concrete between the currently approved number and a blank check", "so how about that one thousand one hundred number could we get a sort of conditional approval or a provisional approval for the one thousand one hundred if it's needed well how about if we did this a provisional what's our current approval remind me", "it's somewhere around ninety five or ninety six", "pretty close", "so eleven thousand additionally one hundred and twenty gallons yeah", "yeah it's not a big difference", "that's not a lot", "and then we can revisit it", "if it proves to be easier to just buy the water allocation than fight the state then we'll probably just come back and do that", "i mean let's just being pragmatic about it", "okay", "so kendall you know far more about breweries than anybody at this table are you comfortable with the data yes", "okay", "yeah", "i sent out a note to bart and the manager to that effect", "so what i have here in paper is graphic heavy and data light but i can provide the supporting data behind these graphs", "i think we tend to rely on kendall for the professional opinion here", "if you're supporting the one thousand one hundred yeah the issue is not with the allocation", "we have it", "i mean he has a pretty good case that he might prevail with the state", "because the state does use an industry standard", "so if we're looking for an one thousand one hundred approval and then we'll revisit this in the future when this dust settles so to speak how's that i just want to comment that i think could you state your name bob wants to know who you are", "i just want to say i think it would be great for our community to have a business like this", "especially the impact that it will help with the water and sewer", "and i just would like to see the board work with them and be easy on them", "because i think all businesses that come into richmond really have to jump through all kinds of hoops", "that's my feeling", "and i'd like to see new businesses greeted with a we'll work with you attitude from the board", "thank you very much", "i want to say i appreciate your good stewardship and coming to us with the issues as you see them", "and being a good neighbor", "thank you", "thank you", "yes sir", "kendall are you finding in metering sewer and waterwaste if he has a pretreatment permit in the industry they probably will require metering but i would think to be fair to him if we meter his sewer and his water and there's a significant difference we're getting a better deal", "you would be doing his sewer as we need to", "right", "so the water is the water and the sewer is the sewer", "okay", "so with that caveat maybe we put this in the form of a motion one thousand one hundred with the water and sewer meters associated", "does that makes sense it does", "and how it would cost to the system from the sewer meter he's gonna have a pretreatment permit probably from the state that's gonna require testing and sampling and a contingency plan and a whole bunch of stuff", "right", "and if we grow down the road that's going to get a lot more complicated", "yes", "and we wish you well", "yep", "life gets more complicated", "so do you need the motion yes we do", "to approve the one thousand one hundred", "if i could propose the motion would be to move that account allocation that sewer allocation up to one thousand one hundred gallons per day provisionally", "if not necessary it'll be returned", "if it is necessary they'll have to pay for it", "the state says they absolutely have to have it", "i'll second what he said", "sure", "well you have to do first at first", "i'll first it", "first and the second", "do you need further discussion", "any allocation for water anymore i guess it depends whose numbers you believe", "i can't imagine finding enough places to wastewater to use i mean if we use the sort of the city formula like if we know we need one thousand one hundred gallons of wastewater and then if there's a multiplier to get to water", "or actually it's the other way around water to wastewater", "we'll have more water than we know what to do with", "and kendall is our main big enough over there six inches", "so are we ready for a vote ready", "all in favor", "aye", "it's unanimous", "thank you very much", "i appreciate your reaching out to kendall and getting her done", "yeah", "i think we should distribute it to ward", "so we wish you the best", "and please keep us posted on your progress", "thank you", "thank you", "we're running short on time", "we have about eleven minutes and about twenty five minutes of topics", "can we do pete you're here", "yeah", "the next item is state planning loan water storage tank construction engineering gme ten minutes", "so basically we have two contracts from gme", "the first is the construction engineering the inspections and that sort of thing for the water storage tank", "that agreement is ninety nine thousand seven hundred", "this would be covered under the loan that was approved recently", "so we really should authorize that", "and then the second contract we can talk about is the contract for the preliminary engineering report that's required for the usda loan", "okay do you want these informs of motions one at a time well the first one i think is pretty simple because we've been rolling on that for awhile and there really shouldn't be any questions on it", "so the board of contract for the construction phase engineering for the water storage tank", "okay", "motion to infer and the loans are at it's all been negotiated right", "we were approved for the loans through the state the reduced right", "and was there any grants that came in on that there's no grant", "it's partial forgiveness", "partial because of the negative interest loans", "okay", "they pay us to use their money", "okay yeah we did get that", "yeah", "all right", "further questions or discussions on this one so we want to approve this", "how do we want to phrase this jeff help me out if you would", "it would be a motion to approve the construction engineering contract with green mountain engineering an amount not to exceed ninety nine thousand seven hundred for the water storage tank", "anybody want to move that it's instruction", "we've already spent it we just need to i'll second it", "i'll move it", "we have a first and a second", "any further discussion all in favor aye", "it's unanimous", "thank you very much", "that didn't feel good all right our second half", "yeah", "so help me out with the second half again if you would please", "pete do you want to explain that the planning loan we're in process right now applying for planning loans as part of that process", "the engineering agreement for the planning portions of that loan", "and i also had to put the construction portion for that loan together too", "right now i'm asking that you approve for the planning loan", "do you have that number this is the preliminary engineering preliminary engineering right", "so there are two parts of it", "there's a water and a sewer part", "and the water phase is five thousand four hundred and ten and the sewer phase is ten thousand four hundred and twenty five", "so that's basically fifteen thousand eight hundred and thirty five", "and that needed to be split up because it's two separate plannings", "one for water and one for sewer", "and that planning loan we've discussed before is a fiveyear no interest loan if it doesn't get lumped into the rural development funding", "who wants to be first not me", "on the money we just spent no it was close", "well we have to vote on it", "yeah", "yeah", "bruce i think you're set", "sure why not bruce you move to fifty you need thirty five", "big spender", "do i have a second second", "that's what i'm saying let's take some of that", "further discussion yeah really", "and that may come at a future date", "yes", "that's going to be part of a future date", "almost guarantee it", "when the dust settles", "all right", "any further discussion move to a vote all in favor say aye", "aye", "so it's fifteen thousand eight hundred and thirty five total yes", "the motion passes", "unanimously", "thank you pete", "and green mountain engineering", "thank you", "we are pretty short on time", "we have a superintendent's report the budget and annual meetings sewer freezing approval of warrants", "so do we need to set the annual meeting date today we're getting pretty close", "i think if we said the second or fourth monday in may that would give us enough time", "all right let's say the fourth mondays", "going to be memorial day correct but the third one didn't", "select board meetings", "we're looking at april", "may may", "the 11th through the 25th the 25th is memorial day that's memorial day", "so we're talking the 11th may 11th and we should just for the record have the time", "why don't we say seven hundred pm is that here next door the school i will have to see if i can reserve the library", "if i can it will be there", "if i can't it'll have to be here", "okay", "so we'll have to work more on the agenda for that", "yes", "let people know", "so we have a date anyway", "may 11th seven hundred pm", "any big leaks nope", "okay", "my peers are quite upset with me", "who is my peers are quite upset with me", "now i'm probably going to suffer for saying that", "yeah there are leaks everywhere but we have not had any more lately", "richmond once again is lucky lucky lucky", "jeffersonville not so much", "no everybody", "everybody", "essex", "and whoever sent that rumor around last week do not stop running your water", "yeah", "do we believe that the trickling of water had a positive effect absolutely", "we should put that out for the folks on the tv audience", "that trickling had a to stop trickling the water", "it's just gotta be warmed up a little bit", "how are we doing with sewer precincts actually we've had just the one foresting issue", "that's still frozen yeah", "okay we transitioned into that real quick", "yes", "so because of that frozen sewer we've made the offer to pump their tanks", "they essentially have a septic tank that once it raises to a certain level of pump pumps it into the force feed on cochran road so that it's all frozen", "we're fairly certain it's a power force main that's frozen and it's causing them the problem", "so we've offered as of a certain point that we were going to pump those tanks until it thawed", "essentially once a week for three to four weeks", "they had some costs to try to thaw their private sewer lines first", "and a few homeowners or actually two homeowners have said they want us to pay for those thawing attempts and pumps prior to us making our offer", "and that's really what's in front of the board", "okay", "did you review those deals the warrants yes but we're not there yet", "i know did you see as far as the email threads yes", "what these people had gotten charged yes", "i thought it was a little bit much for not doing granted they didn't fix the problem but it was come back oh yeah it's fixed", "come back", "oh yeah it's fixed and then all of a sudden and it's not these people's fault", "i just didn't like what i saw", "and i guess we're stuck in it i don't know", "somebody's stuck", "somebody's stuck either them or us", "and i believe it's a force of nature", "it's beyond anybody's control", "right", "and i'll speak up and say that we should cover them", "it's kinda like when it was an emergency", "it's been an emergency and all across the town and it quickly became apparent to most of the town that if none of the towns took the position of well it's yours and it's not ours it was just a very short period of time before all the towns and the managers and everything were saying just take care of a problem it's irrelevant whether it's private or public", "so any of these costs my feeling is the town should cover them", "in light of those comments might i ask that we bring that forward as an agenda at our next meeting to entertain that as a topic and potential motion do we have the luxury of waiting i don't know", "i don't know if they've already paid these or not", "what bills i saw said paid paid yeah", "i'm inclined to think we're going to end up paying them anyway", "and i am very impressed that the tone of the correspondence back and forth", "it wasn't it's your problem deal with it it was this is what's going on can you help us okay", "just and i'm thinking in terms of time so to get into the detail then we could have it organized and be able to carry it forward as a motion", "then the next meeting is that reasonable kendall may i ask you and jeff to do that it's not just the pumping cost", "there was also some plumbing work and people really panicked", "yeah", "there's significant costs here", "there are significant costs yeah", "kick it into the next meeting yeah", "do you think they'll do the same with that or should we do it tonight i don't want to discuss it anymore", "what else we had although we're out of time is the review to review the budget again", "i think we're going to have to kick that forward", "we have annual meeting set", "anything else from the superintendents report and why don't we pass around the warrants for approval are we hearing anything else from him just to keep your water running", "just a trickle", "has anybody here done a water temperature test lately where i do it every now and then", "my house is right close to the main", "we're running forty degrees console", "mine's been thirty three degrees three hundred and thirty four three hundred and thirty six for three weeks now", "thirty three see i've got a lot of water running by my house", "a lot of stuff logged downhill", "a lot of stuff downhill too any questions on these warrants david nope they look good", "all right", "i think we got through everything even though we were kind of rapid on the last couple of items", "jeff anything else from you kendall any comments on this all right", "if there's nothing else i guess we'll entertain a motion to close the meeting", "it's a vote", "second", "all in favor", "aye", "that was unanimous", "thank you"], "name": ["Richmond_Water_Sewer_Cmsn._3-16-15/Richmond_Water_Sewer_Cmsn_DOT__3-16-15/Richmond_Water_Sewer_Cmsn_DOT__3-16-15_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "Richmond_Water_Sewer_Cmsn._3-16-15/Richmond_Water_Sewer_Cmsn_DOT__3-16-15/Richmond_Water_Sewer_Cmsn_DOT__3-16-15_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "Richmond_Water_Sewer_Cmsn._3-16-15/Richmond_Water_Sewer_Cmsn_DOT__3-16-15/Richmond_Water_Sewer_Cmsn_DOT__3-16-15_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "Richmond_Water_Sewer_Cmsn._3-16-15/Richmond_Water_Sewer_Cmsn_DOT__3-16-15/Richmond_Water_Sewer_Cmsn_DOT__3-16-15_DOT_flac_00003.flac", 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2772, 13488, 9890, 3208, 13442, 1770, 12230, 5220, 5160, 1600, 2533, 6883, 3310, 3000, 21160, 7920, 3590, 9450, 4020, 3623, 5970, 2860, 7510, 22530, 4803, 1280, 3550, 2530, 3620, 12010, 8880, 903, 5030, 3723, 2390, 4667, 3110, 7890, 4920, 2660, 2930, 9310, 13250, 3013, 6053, 38407, 5400, 4490, 10270, 2303, 3507, 8580, 8880, 3183, 3632, 2650, 4200, 11083, 3550, 4190, 3183, 847, 1690, 3080, 6340, 5790, 2550, 5823, 3583, 1830, 6950, 7200, 1500, 10003, 4781, 10320, 1867, 9210, 2840, 1700, 4320, 2570, 2290, 4060, 7603, 1450, 4583, 5424, 4693, 6680, 5990, 1428, 6173, 5510, 4340, 6920, 13830, 3250, 10250, 10933, 6633, 11713, 11420, 3623, 7220, 3813, 5040, 2160, 5780, 1660, 12007, 4883, 7410, 6970, 3080, 1527, 3841, 4531, 1258, 3280, 5916, 1882, 833, 833, 1666, 3083], "label": ["all right i'd like to call city development and planning sometimes to order", "first item on the agenda is a presentation about gateway plaza", "we welcome mary moore wallinger", "i'll just start with a few years back we started doing a few studies on lower state street area to get ahead of the development that's now starting to occur there", "the second phase of it was looking at the liberty park and if you were at chief collin's swearing in this morning you heard him talking about the design of liberty park and one of the things we looked at was that it really wasn't very userfriendly and wasn't very safe and we wanted to see if we could do some kind of redevelopment there that would basically enhance the redevelopment efforts downtown", "so this study which is the outgrowth of a previous lower state street study was funded did not cost the city anything other than our staff time", "it was funded by metroplex and the chief capital district transportation committee and i just like to recognize who is their staff person who helped us through this", "so for a quick presentation i'm just gonna hand it off to mary moore from synthesis", "and it was excellent work right here", "thank you for everything on this study", "it's been a great project to work on", "so we worked with a great large group of the steering committee organization you can see the list here and worked together very closely", "we had an insensitive threeday workshop to kick it off where we looked at existing conditions and brainstormed about some potential design ideas and then worked over the next several months in developing those and also had two public meetings as part of the process getting feedback on the existing conditions and preliminary ideas and final feedback on the final design and it was a very positive process and great to be engaged with all the people who participated", "so as steve mentioned it really grew out of the route five transit gateway study", "we proposed the gateway park to located at this important intersection in the city and to include some mixed use infill around the park to help bridge the gap between the community college and the downtown", "this is the existing conditions area", "you can see liberty park in the corner parcel there and water street which has now been closed down now that the dormitories have been included and students are going up to the intersection", "there are four buildings within the study area the two aaa buildings which are currently owned by metroplex the insurance agency which is currently for sale in the trailways terminal building so the project was looked at in two phases", "the yellow area is phase one was designed as phase one of the park which included the closing of water street and incorporating that into the new park and then phase two would include the area where the four buildings are between phase one and roughly where the edge of the student housing was constructed", "so this is just an aerial view of the park the way it is now and a couple of close ups of some of the structures", "there's a lot of history within the park dating all the way back to the founding of the city and including more recent things like the statue of liberty that was dedicated by the boy scouts", "and this is kind of interesting they were having an article just before the study about how there's a time capsule under the statue of liberty and some people were kinda looking forward to finding out what's under there so that could be another interesting component of improving the park", "and as mr chairman mentioned the park now with the berms and the vegetation it really isn't as safe as it could or should be", "a lot of the vegetation has been cleaned up which is definitely improved the conditions but the berms still create limited visibility and if nothing else the perception that the park is not a safe and inviting place", "so really looking for ways to open up the park and make it much more userfriendly and to cater to a whole range of audiences", "so another layer is as you may remember from the tropical storm lee and irene that area gets a lot of water", "so having a park there is actually a perfect use for that space", "and also when we keep in mind that if we do do some mixeduse infill behind it you would need to raise the finished floor which actually creates a great opportunity for being able to incorporate parking below the buildings so that you could meet that city requirement and not lose those valuable parking spaces", "so these were just some of the key concepts we looked at really providing visual safety pedestrian connectivity accessibility flexibility of uses creating an important gateway that would welcome people to the city", "another big part of the study was really looking at how do we get people from the college to the student housing and to downtown safely in this really big intersection", "and so the three main options that we looked at we worked with craig manning they really specialize in transportation planning and engineering and so they really studied it and looked at traffic counts", "and so the three options that we looked at was channelization which basically would use a fence or a structure to direct people to the appropriate intersection", "we also looked at gray crossings where you might have a crosswalk in the middle of the road as opposed to at the intersection", "and then the last was grade separated which would be a bridge", "looking at all these we came to the conclusion that regardless of which option you go with you would still need to have a fence because the temptation is too great to just run across the shortest point", "and we know that students are famous for taking the quickest route to the class they're late for", "so we felt like well the fence is also the cheapest option", "nobody has money to spend on the bridge", "and so why don't we start with fence since we're gonna have to have anyway and see how it works and then determine whether something else would be necessary", "and with bridges people don't really wanna have to go out the extra steps or down the extra steps and how do you control the injuries and so that was kinda the least realistic option", "the idea of a midblock crossing surprisingly it was actually something that dot was receptive to but they felt like it needed further study", "and so now that we have the fence if it seems like there's enough traffic that could be revisited", "but at this time the fence seems to be actually working very well even with the temporary measures", "so we took it as a basic concept this idea that the park had to cater to two very different users the vehicular user who's driving by the park at a very fast speed and the pedestrian who's lingering and walking through the park and looking for a more detailed experience", "and so we created a series of two cross axes using water street as the main pedestrian axes and use these as sort of two contrasting walks that would divide the park into a series of rooms", "so the pedestrian axes is really enhanced with more detail it would use ornamental grasses and sculpture celebrating schenectady's the arts movement that's helping to revitalize schenectady and also a lot of the history in the city and using plants that are relatively low maintenance and the dsic's had a lot of success with it that don't require a lot of extra work", "so then the vehicular axes would contrast with that in that it would be a very clean open lawn directing your eye directly to the focal point in the center of the park", "so as a vehicular user coming into the city you would automatically be directed to sort of this big icon that would welcome you to the city and that would join the two axes in the middle", "and we thought that an interesting idea for that might be to use a sculptural wind turbine that would celebrate the arts as well as schenectady's role as sustainable technologies and might also be an interesting opportunity for looking for sponsorship perhaps from ge or someone who'd be willing to financially contribute to the project", "so then the four rooms that this divided into what top of the bus area which is kind of the busy room in the park and by having the two axes also takes some of the pressure off that people walking down the street with all the people waiting for the bus it can be quite busy", "so this gives you a chance to go slightly off route without having to go too much out of your way and allows that area of the bus stop to have its own space", "and that's where we're also proposing to relocate the statue of liberty so she's a little more in scale with her context and so she's more visible", "then the area to the left would be more of a quiet plaza", "this is a bird'seye of what the park would look like", "and so there would be kind of a quiet plaza at the bottom where you'd have a sculpture", "it would almost feel like fountain but not come with the maintenance of a fountain just a quiet place to sit", "and then you'd have in the center of the large open green which since this schenectady county community college doesn't really have a big flat open green we think it would be a really great way to draw the college into the city and to provide a place also for people from the stockade to come and potentially to host different events in that area", "so this is just a rendering of what the pedestrian way would look like if you were coming out near the end of the student housing", "and this is a rendering of what the vehicular vehicle corridor would look like with the sculpture drawing your eye to the sculpture in the center of the park", "so again having the on the back we think would really bridge that gap between the college and the downtown sort of encouraging people to come", "this step's this business and then another step's the next business", "and we really see that as something that could really be market driven", "so if there was a developer who wanted to build it today that would be great or if it was something that waited until there was more of a need that would be another possibility", "and it also might be a great location for the college to consider including its bookstore or again another way to especially with student housing having over two hundred and forty beds there it seems like a very easy fit for a pizza shop or a place to do your laundry or just any of those kind of college uses that would help bridge that gap to the downtown and also add some nightlife", "and because it would be slightly elevated and overlook the park it would be a great opportunity for some interesting restaurants with overlooks", "so the trailways terminal because it is still in the park and it's gonna stay there we thought would be a great opportunity for them to include sort of a news stand or coffee shop just so if you're a student you could grab coffee or if you're catching the bus or changing buses there's a place right there", "and so we'd integrate the building into the park and really create more use of the park through that building seemed like a natural fit if the owner was ever inclined to do that", "and then with the open one being able to use it for outdoor classroom space just for playing a ball game or having events that the city or the college could even host sort of an after five type thing that that would have a lot of use", "and it wouldn't have sort of formal steps receding but it would be slightly sloped so it could function as an amphitheater and again some quiet reading areas", "and the historic railroad street we thought would be interesting to make some kind of a tribute to that just with a decorative statement or something that would allude to the history of the separate railroad that used to run through the site", "so as you can see that's phase one which because of the way that the access is tapered allows a nice buffer between the existing buildings and the pedestrian ways that you would feel like you were in the park and less like it just stopped right at the edge", "and phase one is certainly very doable especially since water street has already been closed and the city already owns the park", "phase two the really big game would be to have that grade one which will add on to the uses of the park and might be a really strong selling point for the college to engage with the park more", "but even that being said there's still plenty of spaces within phase one where you could have sort of smaller informal similar events", "so i think those are the highlights", "if anybody has any questions i'd be happy to try and answer them", "questions from anybody in terms of the maintenance of the park you mention dsic", "so are you saying that they would kind of do something the entire part of it or just well they as well as the city were part of the steering committee and so there was a lot of discussion about how do we create something that's maintainable and is not gonna draw too much", "and so it would be a combination of the city and gsic", "right now dsic does a lot of the maintaining the sidewalks and weeds growing in a pedestrian way and there's certain beds that they maintain and then the city really handles any of the mowing", "i think dsic does a lot of the plowing as well but the city does some", "and nothing's finalized", "obviously we'd be looking for partners to see if maybe the community college or another developer in the area might wanna adopt a piece of it", "but in terms of plans and things that have worked well", "i've worked dsic a lot for the plantings downtown when we tried to create some of the beds so that they're more maintainable and also so that if we do get the occasional weed it's not really noticeable", "and so that was how we talked about the grasses as a very simple plan to maintain the ever rich texture and multiseason", "and it's easy to when you plant them you can plant them so they don't catch a bunch trash and that type of thing", "and so were the design that's in place now with the berms it's very labor intensive to maintain it", "so by going to this format even though you're gonna have a larger area it's conceivable we could do it with the same amount of manpower and resources that we're doing on a much smaller format", "and the big emphasis of this is that the majority of the plants are really geared to being sort of like heights or catch below the knee and well above the head so you have that open middle section throughout the park", "lighting is there a plan with lighting in there yes there is", "there would be lighting throughout the pedestrian access in particular and then you have lighting along all the sidewalks on the edge of the streets as well", "so when you get further into designing we'll just decide exactly where and what style", "but yes there certainly is time for lighting", "surprising", "i just wanted to say that i attended both public meetings that mary moore kind of glazed over quickly but they were very very well attended meetings", "i would say probably somewhere between forty and sixty people hold meetings then a lot of input was given and a lot of back and forth", "so i think the citizens of schenectady are well represented in this design cause it was more than one design initially", "i got to one of them but that one was good", "is any of this land designated park land liberty park is designated parkland none of the rest of it is", "so what's the plans for that in terms of redeveloping or adding on to existing park lands there's no existing grants that we have", "we're not alienating anything getting rid of anything", "so expanding a park is not a problem", "and we didn't come across any outstanding conditions that were there requirements from previous grants that we needed to improvise", "so what are next steps well the next step is to work with some partners", "we've been having some discussions about getting phase one rolling", "phase one is easy to do it's implementable the city can do a lot of work removing the berms", "so we talked with metroplex about potentially doing some fundings", "phase two a lot more money and is further out", "but i think the initial thing right now to do is start working to try and do phase one", "because this study was done in may doing that fence down the middle and making the walkway for the students safe and pretty much proved that while there has been some impact to the business owners there it still works down there with the part of the grove shut down", "do we have budgetary figures for phase one and phase two we do i don't have them with me", "phase two was i think was about eighteen million", "i think that's inclusive", "that was not inclusive of the buildings which is two million", "i think that was the entire thing", "we applied for a grant through and then we did not receive one this year so we'll probably apply again next year once we get through the consolidated funding application in which they're using some of the buildings as matches using some of our work as matches", "we actually delayed this presentation by about a month and a half because of all the budget issues and we understand that the city doesn't have money to do this so we're gonna have to leverage as much as we can to find services get grant funds", "good idea to partner with the different organizations", "i think it was like four hundred thousand for one i think like sixteen million approximately for phase two", "looking at the picture it looks beautiful", "any of the existing larger more established trees being preserved to go into that planning yes", "so this tree here is the really big arching tree that you see from also", "we wanted to keep that cause we feel like it's a big part of the park and it looked like the grades would work fine because a lot of the berms were built over a lot of the roots and that area's an area that's actually the base of the tree's roughly at the", "so we kept that so you'll still have that really wonderful sense of the canopy and it'll make the park seem more established and less barren", "and we kept one or two over here too that are also large trees", "but the rest obviously in phase two there's really not any trees over there now it's all here", "it looks big cause it's been opened up here", "it's actually relatively small and so three big trees is gonna give you a nice ceiling effect", "but right now it's so dense you can't see five feet into the park", "so at the same time we think it's gonna open it up and make it lighter and make it more inviting but you'll still have the sense that there's a really nice wellestablished canopy over the park", "okay anything else okay thank you very much", "thank you thank you", "all right let's just strike them as done as all the rest of the items on the agenda", "i waited until you had a quiet night to present all these things", "the second article is north side neighborhood designated survey area", "if you remember in july mayor mccarthy discussed his north side initiative and we were looking at the potential other funding sources that we'd like to look into one of which was tax increment financing", "and at the time we discussed in a town like everybody was in agreement that we would designate the area surrounded by the bike trail knox street seneca and almost to van vranken and can actually the river properties on van vranken as a survey area just for us to look at it doesn't commit anybody to anything to look at the potential of doing some redevelopment in that area does it work how could you do stuff and then i went on vacation and we never did the resolution designating the survey area", "so like you we we just designated that a survey area", "it doesn't commit to anything", "we had been doing work since july and we should be back in a couple of weeks with just some presentations on how redevelopment could work how it could be funded", "questions if not i'll entertain a motion", "i'll move it", "second second", "all in favor aye aye", "should i just go keep going yeah", "okay", "the next one is just a call for public hearing to abandoning paper streets in certain city owned properties", "sheltingham avenue landfill which has thirty four tax parcels and six paper streets and the area between steinmetz park and kailberg park which has six tax parcels and four papers streets", "this is just a record keeping problem", "we have all these tax parcels out there", "every time somebody comes in and looks to do subdivision asks these questions we have to cycle through thirty four properties", "the attempt here is just to consolidate all the lots into one lot and make a cheltenham avenue landfill instead of thirty four parcels and this area between kailberg park and steinmetz park", "so this is just a call to abandon those paper streets", "once they're abandoned then we would do a consolidation of the lots", "you would never use those streets in that configuration", "there will never be redevelopment of the park above the", "and if you ever wanted to do anything in the kailberg park you would certainly put new streets in different locations or the same locations", "mr ericson", "the city owns the lots though the city owns all the lots", "there's no question of that there's a lot that has no access correct", "and then eventually i'll be doing the same thing in woodlawn cause there are in woodlawn cause there are court closing on three properties right now that would create that problem", "other questions i'll move it", "okay second", "all in favor aye aye", "okay and my final item is mctap minority contractor technical assistance program", "the city council has approved previously funding through empire state development eighty seven thousand for the renovation of eight hundred and eighteen albany street which is just about done now", "it looks beautiful", "they're getting applications now to start getting tenants in that their board has to approve", "empire state development has been fronting us the money", "because this is the last drawdown they will not front us the money they like to hold something back", "so since the work is done empire state needs to see the receipts for payment mctap needs the money to make the payment", "what i'm asking for what the town's asking for is a bridge loan for about three weeks", "in my application we're talking about twenty thousand but actually it's only eleven thousand one hundred and ninety nine", "so we have all the paperwork ready to go", "once the money comes in it will be paid and the will be submitted to empire state development corporation", "questions yes mr", "is there any chance that the bridge loan they wouldn't get the money within that three weeks and what are the risks i don't really believe there's a problem", "we've been working with empire state on this and it's tough cause it's an older program getting them back up to speed on this program but they're working with us right now and up to speed", "they've just stand up some money and are ready to do that other process that other one rapidly", "so i don't think there's any risk for us", "it might be a month but i think it really should be about two weeks", "anything else just i have a question yep", "cost to the city in terms of lending the money or i didn't do the interest cost on eleven thousand two hundred", "i could submit that back to you", "i don't know what we're gonna lose on interest in two or three weeks", "and where exactly is that money coming from to give the bridge loan where's the money from the city coming from out of what line well that would be something i have to create in the resolution and ask is maniford the exact line item and just basically get them out of the general fund", "it's usually when we have grants and we have these drawdowns we create these budget lines that pay upfront and get reimbursed later", "unfortunately not here", "we'll lose about one thousand and seventy six on interest", "i'm just more concerned as to what line it's coming out of seeing as we didn't have a line there to begin with", "i can tell you i have no idea", "the resolution will most likely have a line in it", "well it has to have a budget line in it most likely", "right did not apply a budget so it'll be in there so i don't have that yet", "and i know that we can without the figures", "i mean we're certainly talking a minimal amount of money", "i understand that but i just don't know where it's coming from", "okay", "well would you entertain approving it pending the information mmhmm", "okay", "so you'll move back pen something", "i think i'll accept it", "all in favor aye aye", "okay good", "get all the information to you guys", "it'll be on a resolution or something wednesday", "it's just a public hearing right call a public hearing yeah", "one other thing that i didn't put on here that i would like us to do is a resolution recognizing buyer fur company", "i actually meant to do this last year which was their 175th year of existence", "and i just think as one of the oldest businesses in the city it would be appropriate to just recognize them", "sure i'll move that second", "all in favor aye aye", "good thank you", "okay if there's nothing else to come before the city development and planning i'll entertain a motion to adjourn", "second", "all in favor aye aye", "i'll call to order w regarding sick leave where will i get the information i got some down here", "okay thanks", "call to order government operations and first item is selection of new council president", "i think it's just denise", "no it's just denise", "and barbara and barbara", "i do not know the procedure for this denise", "ms rucker", "well i would just put forth council member king as the new council president through our committee and then it would go on the consent agenda for monday night", "any discussion or questions okay i'll second", "all in favor aye aye", "all right and appointment of the official city newspaper", "i assume same make a motion", "i thought this was usually done at a the first of the year meeting", "the organizational meeting", "the first formal meeting of the council will be next monday", "we do it yearly so in theory we only have an official newspaper for", "last year's was only for one year", "the resolution wasn't ready for two", "do you understand that do you know why it's usually we always do it every two years", "i've been always familiar were it being done every two years and apparently last year when they did the resolution it was only for one year", "so we're gonna make", "so metroland i would yeah i would suggest", "if you have a newspaper within the city that publishes you have to designate that paper so you can solicit bids get things but they have to give it to the daily gazette", "oh oh well", "that's kinda fixed right fixed all right so do you wanna make a motion please i've gone down that road", "yes i'll make a motion", "to make the newspapers", "yeah apparently the new newspaper in schenectady", "our official city newspaper and i will second that", "all those in favor aye aye", "excellent", "any other business to come before government operations if not we'll be adjourned", "all right second", "to name brian kilcullen the new police chief and chief kilcullen is here tonight", "he did a presentation at the announcement today and of summarizing some of what the department has done last year the last several years and outlined some of the goals and objectives for the coming year and wanted to make them available to the council tonight to answer any questions or comments or just start the ongoing dialogue", "i think that he was ready to do a powerpoint presentation but they'd taken all the equipment away so", "supposed to do one of this shows with his hands he can make", "one of my first requests will be to find some powerpoint training cause mine wasn't anything like that", "but i think mostly we did see it today", "but briefly i can go through it again and talk about some of the activity results from last year", "again we had a goal early in year ten reduction in crime", "through the end of the year we actually had a ninety two reduction", "one of the focus crimes was car larcenies", "we had a lot of car larcenies over the course of the year", "they were actually down by thirty five", "and i know some of you even had some in your neighborhoods", "we focused on that pretty heavily this year and we're actually down three hundred and fifty one", "now even though we were short of our goal by eight hundred and ten of a percent crime was was actually up slightly in new york city and down just slightly throughout the state there were actually some impact sites that had some slight increases", "we were an impact site which is where non new york city crime occurs and we had some pretty good successes over the course of the year", "chief i don't mean to interrupt you", "i neglected introduced nick macherone who is with the new york state association of chief of police and nick serves as the law enforcement liaison with the governor's traffic safety committee and he's been working with the department in terms of some of this datadriven analysis that we do in the deployment of the department and we're thankful that you're here tonight", "again nick there's some information that he has also compliment to things that the chief is talking about", "i apologize chief", "i'll open some of these and then the last thought actually ddacts nick and we'll talk a little bit more in a second", "some of the figures over the course of the year", "we we actually had over six thousand arrests resulting in over ten thousand offenses over the course of the year", "our car crashes again through ddacts we actually decreased our car crashes by thirteen and a half percent down from three thousand five hundred and fifteen to three thousand and forty one", "we responded to eighty five thousand calls for service over the course of the year", "we implemented an online reporting system for minor offenses which really abdicated need to respond to certain minor offenses freed us up to do other things", "we expanded our neighborhood camera system by twenty seven cameras", "issued twenty five new and revised policies meeting the standards", "received over a million dollars in grant funding over the course of the year", "we participated and this was a big thing we participated in an nij funded police legitimacy project with fin institute and this was highlighted at that national conference in washington we call it our customer service project", "but again the idea is like the customer service survey almost how are you doing and the idea is if the level of satisfaction increases then the general population tends to cooperate with police more tends to obey the law when the police aren't present and that's the whole idea", "there's been a lot of research done mostly out of yale university", "and actually i was on a panel down in washington with one professor from yale who did a lot of research on this", "so that's great it's not finalized yet", "it's us in syracuse that participating in the study", "and again we're hoping", "the idea is a satisfied general public is more cooperative with us helps us to solve crimes and do all the other things we wanna do", "then the other thing i mentioned with nick here if you can elaborate a little more nick it's that we instituted that our data driven approach to crime and traffic safety and the idea is what we do is we map out our crime throughout the city we map out our crashes overlay the two and where they overlap that's where we do our enforcement and it's shown to reduce crime in those areas", "went to a mount pleasant neighborhood association meeting in november", "it was one of the hotspots", "we had started this about september", "at the time crime was down about seven in the city and in mount pleasant was down one hundred and twenty three", "this is a few months after we had started at mount pleasant and not just that but one of the target areas was mount pleasant", "and the good thing about this is we can go to the neighborhood association meetings and everyone wants more of a police presence we'd all like that but we then tell neighborhoods why we can't be in their neighborhood more than we already are", "and in this particular case the good news was yes we'll more of a presence", "the reason we're here is because it happens to be one of the hotspots", "but we could also go to neighborhood associations and when they ask for this make the same request we can tell em unfortunately we are trying to do more with less when using this approach to really pinpoint where we need to be and when we need to be there", "so the good news for that group would be hey look things are relatively quiet here but for that reason we can't necessarily be here any more than we already are", "so we can use it kind of at both ends of the spectrum", "but again we went through the training provided through nick's organization back in april and our impact grant actually is up in calendar period july 1st", "so in may we start our application again", "after going through this training we said look let's use this strategy but to use this strategy we're going to need to leverage more resources from the state to provide more analysis", "because we are producing a number of intelligent products with our crime analysis", "about two years ago we had about a one hundred hours of analysis a week", "we were down to about forty", "so he was really at his max", "but by deploying this strategy to our impact application we were able to learn more resources from than to provide another halftime person", "so we're back up to about sixty hours of analysis a week", "and again we're the first in the state to use this", "and albany's just getting going with it and they actually really took reports that we're doing and kind of doing exactly what we're doing is it a real good report we were shown a number of reports a number of intelligence products produced throughout country and matt douglas did a great job kind of taking it and then making his own and it's great", "it's easy to read it clearly identifies the target areas shows everyone where to be and when and its worked for us", "so nick if you want to elaborate on that further", "i just gotta say that we're extremely impressed at the way that schenectady is using data collecting and analyzing their data directing their resources more efficiently and effectively", "that's the whole operational model to reduce social harm in communities", "it's a proven operational model that's going across the country", "we're really happy to see our tricity partners moving this forward probably the first agencies in new york state to do that", "we've done four workshops in a year", "the most recent was again in april with schenectady albany troy herkimer and other sheriffs and state police agencies", "and again when i saw your article in the paper about you mount pleasant neighborhood and the impact it's been having on that in the number of reduced calls for service and talking to the assistant chief who was at the workshop along with his team i was really impressed reached out and he says yeah we're utilizing it we're moving it forward and we're there to support that in any way we can", "and again we're very very pleased with that and that's it", "good thanks", "and we're gonna expand that a little bit further and we'll go up to two thousand and thirteen", "as you know and again i think everyone today", "thank you again for restoring the third to the chief position", "but going forward into two thousand and thirteen we'll continue to have a field services bureau with an assistant chief an investigative services bureau with an assistant chief and an administrative services bureau with an assistant chief", "and rather than combining two and giving it all to one person what i did was i took some responsibilities from the two that were combined and moved them were", "i kept some", "some of the functions that i had as an assistant chief i'll keep as the chief the budget procurement", "media relations was formerly under an assistant chief i'll keep that", "professional development falling under assistant chief i'll keep that", "again to try to spread the tasks amongst the entire command staff", "but as i said generally field services will stay the same", "fleet management formally under a support service will come under the field services bureau partly because most of the cars are patrol cars", "so most of the needs are easily communicated to the bureau commander of those using the cars", "we'll move the fleet management too to that bureau", "investigative services will pretty much stay the same", "and other than that like i said the administrative services bureau would generally be what was formerly our personal management bureau and our support services bureau", "and again i tried to take some things from that bureau because again that's where accreditation falls and we definitely wanna finish as i said before we've been talking about this for over twenty years and we made more progress in the last three than we did in the previous seventeen", "so i don't wanna lose anyone there", "and at one of our earlier meeting i'd given you a copy of pretty much what we just talked about", "we mentioned ddacts and as i said i wanna expand that a little bit more to really take the records of a code enforcement to get them more involved and came up with another program called scope and again it's schenectady cooperations and police enforcement and it's using the ddacts model kinda mapping out pro issues or con issues and concentrate or enforcement there and then going further and having monthly compstat like meetings that we're having but including code enforcement and the other city department that has any sort of involvement in this process and that compstat process will provide the forum for accountability and feedback", "i spoke with eric shown he's going to participate in our inservice training", "as i said earlier we respond to eighty five thousand calls for service so we wanna explode that", "now we don't know necessarily what we're looking for in a house what the code issues are but there some that comes to our inservice training that we've started this month for any one service training and to kind of give us some ideas what to look for", "walk by a smoke detector press the button", "does it work if not it's a violation we'll refer it", "as i said today a lot of these things aren't necessarily situations that we can arrest someone for but it may be a problem location", "so if we can't do anything about it in terms of an arrest well what else can we do so again exploit the fact that we're in these houses all the time especially problem locations", "so we're gonna work more closely with codes and any other city department", "cpted the crime prevention through environmental design", "we've got the training and it's scheduled for the last week in march", "i'll be working with the major to identify stakeholders we think should come", "as i talked about liberty park commissioner can tell you on the calls received early this summer halfway through summer the calls for service down there was astronomical", "it is just a haven for activity", "you may have seen some panhandlers down there between the park and the college", "well that's where they were pretty much camping out right in there", "you can't see em", "it was pretty well secluded", "went in there to drink and doing other things were down there regularly", "and until we actually made a few arrests we were there regularly", "we're dedicating a lot of resources in that one area again which could've been avoided had that design been proper", "so we're gonna do this training in march", "and this too funds for this training provided by the state through impact", "we developed a very good relationship with those running impact", "they like what we're doing", "we have a annual round table where half the impact agencies go to one meeting the other half goes to the other", "but they like what we're doing and for that reason i think we've been successful in leveraging more resources from them", "so we'll continue to do that", "one other photo we're participating in is again it's a federally funded project sponsored through dcjs called ceasefire really", "the idea is to minimize gun violence in the community", "and so we're targeting parolees coming out of prison who where identified as violent offenders we're bringing them in for a meeting as they get out and the first meeting was actually last month", "we have eighteen parolees", "it's us it's the us attorney's office the district attorney's office and ex offenders kinda who have been there", "we're bringing them in and tell em look this is our community", "it's your community it's our community", "we had enough okay enough with the gun violence it's gotta stop", "you're here because you were identified as a violent offender", "if this continues this is what's gonna happen", "and i'll tell you the message from the us attorney's office you see jaws drop", "because once they get into felony and the they possess a gun or even a bullet or a part of a gun an inoperable gun", "a bullet's as good as a gun federally", "so the message from this us attorney's office really hits home", "so this was shown to be successful in chicago some others around the country", "and again we've been one of the few areas in the state that have been selected by", "actually it was back in april the mayor were out at the capitol when this was first presented in competitive process", "and us albany maybe two more places were selected to participate", "so that's what we're doing", "now as far as our goals again we're gonna continue to target part one crime reducing it by ten again", "we're doing the right things i think with some of our strategies with our ddacts and expanding that to scope", "number of outstanding warrants has been up hadn't come down a whole lot", "so i've already discussed this what we can do with some of the agencies involved one being a the court", "we've got a number of take traffic violence for example or even traffic misdemeanors warrants are being issued and we talked about possibly suspending the license rather than issue a warrant and even to reduce the number of warrants being issued", "now there are other ways to address people not showing up in court", "for people committing certain fences we're going to go through and reduce warrants by at least thirty of this year again by doing a number of different things", "one other thing one of our goals is to and i may have hurried through this but i'll expand that a little bit and mentioned today reduce our house antics by twenty five", "this was prepared last month when we met a few times trying to identify an agency that might help us on the collections", "through their experience typically tickets that are one to five years old or twenty to twenty five of the tickets that are one to five years old are collected on through any sort of collection efforts", "so we again as of last month when we prepared this there was nine hundred and fifty two thousand three hundred and eighty nine in tickets that were one to five years old", "we expect to be able to collect twenty to twenty five of that", "tickets greater than five years old through collection processes typically ten to fifteen of those tickets are collected", "so we expect to collect between thirty thousand nine hundred and four hundred and forty one thousand", "now there's a cost associated with that obviously about twenty commission", "so this is one thing we're looking at", "but even after that commission we expect to collect between twenty four thousand seven hundred and three hundred and fifty three thousand", "so that's one thing we'll be doing", "we're looking to do some other things with towing and some other things but i'm not ready to talk too much about that yet but we've just done some things differently through the course of the year", "and as i said one of our other goals is to cement our application for accreditation by year's end", "so hope we'll have a successful year and talk about next year what our successes has been when all these goals will have been met", "so any questions well you're right we've got one", "so this one says chief this one says assistant chief", "we don't have money to buy two badges", "congratulations and thanks very much thank you very very much", "okay so if there's no business to come before government operations", "okay i move", "second all those in favor aye aye", "call to order claims free items anything not executive session no", "i have a motion to go to executive session", "so moved", "second", "all in favor aye aye", "we're going into executive session"], "name": ["committee_01_07_2013/committee_01_07_2013/committee_01_07_2013_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "committee_01_07_2013/committee_01_07_2013/committee_01_07_2013_DOT_flac_00001.flac", 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is in the right of way", "coast will be inspecting the deck", "the city has no objection to this being in the right of way as long as they are granted this permit", "questions comments someone should take care of the sidewalk", "this is not gonna change the sidewalk at all", "the sidewalk right now is i believe there is a two foot utility strip and then there's a five foot sidewalk and then they have stairs that are internal", "they're not external so they're stairs that are internal to the deck and it's a flush back", "they're not gonna be coming out at all any farther", "i believe this deck is original from ben and jerry's", "so i don't know it's been for quite some time and we're gonna be able to maintain at least five feet of clear space", "all in favor to give permit", "i move to approve", "second all in favor", "thank you very much", "we'll have pictures of dates go get your party hat on", "okay uniform rental and laundry service mr howard so this is for the uniform rental that we'd like to enter an agreement with unifirst corporation which just went out last year for bid we've had two respondents to the bid", "one did not meet the qualifications and the other came through with everything", "so we'd like to enter into that contract for one year and then next year we would reach out even further and try to get more bidders to come aboard", "questions comments it talks about all the uniforms and lab coats and all this", "so every one these people are wearing some type of uniform", "everyone has a certain either uniform or laundry service that is provided for by unifirst whether it be uniforms whether it be towels mop heads things like that", "so we're all affected you know between facilities fire sewer street wastewater treatment plant water department and between the pump station", "so yeah everybody has a little piece", "correct", "okay", "how does this price compare to last year chairman last year they are right on the same numbers as what we had last year they've held us to the same numbers", "so there was really no increase at all", "so they've been a very reliable vendor for us", "none of our departments have had an issue with them and the products that they supply to us", "so that's why we really feel that unifirst is one of the better quality people that you can go through", "that is twenty five thousand five hundred yes sir", "and that's culmination all the departments", "all the departments listed here okay", "i'd like to move this", "any other business to be brought up for operating", "okay so second all in favor thank you", "i'm gonna call order city development and planning", "first item on the agenda concerns the land bank and mr hoffman is here to talk to us about that", "good evening everyone", "good evening", "as you have on your request form this exciting time for land banks to revitalization it's connectivity but it's time to get down to the nitty gritty", "we have to put our application into the attorney general for the funding that we're requesting a million dollars and maybe more for the land bank for amsterdam the county and the city", "and in order to put that application in the way we have it planned right now are gonna be asking for approximately thirty one properties in eastern island neighborhood and maybe some others", "but we need a resolution of support and a commitment to transfer the property so that when we put the application in the city and from the county and from amsterdam go along with the application", "so that's the basics of it", "i'll answer any questions you have about it", "raise here to answer any questions", "thank you for assisting us in this as a city", "we're talking about the twenty one properties", "not just on the street but in the neighborhoods in the back there the city owns some vacant lots and some other properties", "we wanna do as throughout a job in that neighborhood as we can", "yes we hop to demolish and to rehab and some of them were vacant now we hope to clean them up maybe do a property next door maybe do a community garden", "and we also have a facade program going in eastern avenue neighborhood right now where homeowners can apply to the land bank for five thousand in assistance to help with the outside of the properly", "this million dollars is coming to where it's connected", "the land bank is what amsterdam the county and the city", "okay so part of the three million they pretty much said they're is three million's available it needs a land bank we may ask for a little more because amsterdam has some things going", "and you know the county has a couple things that we may wanna ask for too but we said we wanna get the three million for the land bank it will all go to the city", "we're hoping the lion share of to two and a half two and a quarter", "we're gonna ask for a little more you know with specific projects in mind we're calculating all that getting the application ready", "so all the properties that you're talking about", "i believe someone when we're in the most recent round of foreclosures i'm not quite sure how that is but", "thank you ma'am just a couple of comments here and a question", "again wonderful partnership with the land bank with metroplex sir and ida for working in our neighborhoods", "we've been talking about the metroparks not getting into the neighbors for a long time", "we know they've been doing a great work with downtown", "and again my theory is the city of schenectady the heart is the downtown and without the arteries we are now gonna move into the arteries and start working into the neighborhoods", "eastern avenue is certainly an area of need", "and again there's many of those buildings that you have said are vacant and just completely need to be taken down", "the other question is how often does this application come forward from the state is this something that's a yearly basis or with land banking funding they've announced it last year they announced the first gate pins about another one", "so then they announced another one this year and they've also indicated they're more unlikely there will be a third round next year", "and the reason i ask that is", "as you're well aware with this many city school districts", "reorganize every district the buildings two thousand and sixteen over alvern avenue school is slated to be closed i'd really like to see a triplex and then the land bank and continue to work on that eastern avenue corner", "and what the school does perhaps maybe turn that vacant building into some housing for seniors or for veterans as we're talking about some of the other neighborhoods", "and i think it just be a wonderful way to partner with the school rather than to wait for a building to burn down like we did on brandywine for so many years", "so again if we can keep that in the back of our minds you know the long range plan to work with partner with the school district on the next one hundred and eighty and then take a look at that utilize it for some potential housing", "the land banks have generated a lot of credibility around the state and not only the attorney general but some of the other funding sources we hope it will be coming forward", "as the attorney general settles with the large foreclosing banks settles their you know the lawsuits with them that's the funding", "and they wanna make sure that it's used for revitalization in areas where those foreclosures took place", "so they don't wanna get let us get too far off the dime there but they had indicated that there will be continual funding for land banks at least into two thousand and fifteen", "thank you", "any other questions mr gellen did you wanna add anything yeah just an interesting point bank data we were thrilled to the attorney general stipend and it's connecting with the mayor of amsterdam and many of you were there", "we really appreciate it and we put to good use the one hundred and fifty thousand that you provided us last year leveraged it with metro bikes dollars and ida dollars to see real gains and progress take place one eastern", "it's a great opportunity they're said to acquire for three million dollars", "this state funding that is available is all money that's bearing very well at the event is all money that he won in legal actions against these large foreclosing banks", "so it is not taxpayer money it is money that he won for the efforts and legal actions on foreclosure cases", "so it's in effect found money from the state and we're working very closely with the land bank and the mayor and his team to try to bring home this next win if you will and this next allocation of dollars and we're really appreciative of your support", "you need to send forward a strong resolution for the city", "say that we want this money", "we have had some other discussions with the school district on that school", "a great idea to do conversion to housing we've had very preliminary discussions at this point", "there's more intake", "thank you any other questions or comments if not i'll entertain the motion", "we really set a solid foundation to work off of and it's exciting to see it starting to really fall into motion but at a critical time of being wellorganized to move forward not just willy nilly", "so i'm thrilled", "the second point is porterfield all in favor", "aye", "okay thank you", "all right second item on the agenda was ceremonial resolution for paraikus", "they just had their hundredth anniversary", "second by porterfield", "all in favor aye", "all right there's nothing else to come before city dealt development and planning", "i'll entertain a motion to adjourn", "second all in favor", "aye", "okay", "public safety dog holding facility", "assistant chief good evening", "good evening good evening", "everybody knows where we came from and the challenges that we've had in the past with exorbitant amount of dogs that we take into custody every year then with that we built a facility the facility is in nice shape it's brand new it's kept clean and neat and the temperature is fine and adequate for the dogs", "we tried to adopt many dogs or transfer the ownership to them", "we evaluate all the dogs prior to transfer and hopefully in hopes of having the transfer dog as opposed to euthanizing", "do you have any questions i mean i'm not quite sure what are some of the issues", "we know that the city works on a tight budget", "we know that all the city workers are super busy", "so i think what came out to me strongest was how can we leverage people who have this as their passion not necessarily their job right because we certainly saw that there's people that wanna come into the facility that wanna help take care of the dogs we walk them they're certainly already donating food and toys", "so how can we safely leverage that because to me it's just like we encourage our neighborhood associations to get into the parks and you have you know litter and you know maintain a healthier city atmosphere overall", "how can we use that leverage that volunteer", "we do work with a lot of other agency and have and still do as far as some guidance because let's face it this is relatively new to us and we've been searching out guidance and we've been attending training sessions to educate ourselves and learn on best means and best ways to handle situations like this", "i think some of the questions that you have regarding some other volunteers coming in to me i see that as a legal issue that probably would sit better with corporation counsel", "but certainly we're not opposed to that", "and again we have been working with other organizations or associations to help us with the dogs", "there's something there are things we can do we can study it's mostly just our support groups wanna come in do we can evaluate what things are possible what things aren't", "what is the policy right now when a dog is brought in as far as what are they fed how many times are they fed a day they're fed they're watered", "everyday there's water", "they're fed we kind of changed that a little bit because we were feeding them twice a day", "and what happens here of course is you feed them twice a day then they excrete twice a day", "so we've scaled that back to feed a once a day but they're also giving treats throughout the day as well", "whose job is that to do that the animal control officers we have two fulltime and one parttime", "we just lost one and i just received four applications", "hopefully this week i'll be conducting interviews to hire", "i'd like to hire a couple more and fortunately it looks like i have some good applicants", "so i'm going to hire hopefully two maybe more i don't know", "but i have a budget obviously we work with it and i'm not worried about that budget for spending it", "i think we can live within and without", "within your budget would it be possible to hire someone to be there because from what i understand i don't think twenty four hours is acceptable i thought it's supposed to be twelve hours", "well", "especially for water", "it's recommended that they always have water and we check on them", "five days a week they're checked on there's somebody working two shifts", "and then on sundays we have a parttimer come in we have one coming in on saturdays of course she resigned about three weeks ago", "and yeah some days like sundays and mondays could be a stretch a period of time where there's no one there but we make sure we check on them and make sure they have water", "so this is a manpower issue then at times it is and hopefully soon that would be resolved", "in what way by hiring more parttimers", "do we have money in the budget to do better absolutely", "because it seems to me like the biggest complaint too was interaction i know this is a shortterm facility", "i understand that", "but sometimes it's turning into a longterm facility for some of these dogs", "but that's rare", "i understand but they don't have any real human interaction as far as somebody to take them out", "mrs parasso brought up you know if we have people that are willing to do this", "the dogs are the ones that are manageable", "they're exercised they're taken out on walks the dangerous dogs are a different story", "that is rough", "by the animal control officers yes", "however we had a meeting recently with the mayor and one of our humane societies that is willing to help us out some more", "they already do work with us on a daily basis and they wanna help us some more and we're looking at possible outside run for the dogs", "we can let them run outside they can't stay caged in there", "so we're researching that now", "just one other question and i know it's come up other times with all the things we ask of volunteers", "is this gonna be a human work problem if volunteers come in again that's to me that's a legal question", "it would depend on what is exactly wrong here", "could you be more specific as to if they came to walk the dogs is that helpful not helpful right now giving the specifics of different situations i wanna sit down on track and hear what exactly people get a case by case answer", "how can we set it up so that the animal control officer's position defaults to another position because i mean how are we protecting to make sure that one of our fulltime animal control officers steps out of the street and gets run over by a bus god forbid right how are we protecting that defaults somewhere else can we have a fail safe method right in other words if somebody needs to go on a vacation if we lose a parttime person or whatever and that can we have a backup person that's always available or a backup position that always defaults to ensure that that's constant", "exactly and that's one of the challenges right now especially in the losing one of the parttimers", "so we've been managing we've been taking care of it", "but more that's why i requested permission to hire possibly a couple extra parttimers", "but instead of hiring additional staff that would tax the budget if we have a default person", "so you know whatever you know i don't know who", "and that's something else i looked into today i spoke to carl olson the guy getting some help and he said whatever i can do for you let me know again we're checking all options all options", "i just feel like it's up to us to work as hard as we can possibly work to make sure this happens as fast as it can possibly happen", "and that we're better you know not to say it was bad but we're better", "absolutely", "because we can always be better you know and especially for this vulnerable population you know even if it is a temporary situation", "and again i would love to see the passionate people who love animals i would love to see them be able to have the ability to assist the city because we have some wonderful programs with our city that will give eagerly of their time and effort", "i don't see why we incorporate that in this part of the city too", "sure absolutely yeah", "absolutely", "is there any way within the budget we have to look cause we're coming to a actual facility with a person there at least on a regular basis", "so we to don't have to worry about somebody's on vacation at least on a five day basis and somebody can fill in on the weekend that would be the best thing or somebody looking for a dog and they know where to come or they lost their pet", "is that a possibility yeah i mean if there's enough money", "that's always the question", "could we hire a professional somebody that is familiar with this type of facility and managing that would be ideal", "another piece that really jumped out at me that i thought was a very strong point that we can easily rectify is the amount of information on our website", "i'm sorry that i don't know but is it the county function or a city functions that it looked like it went to the county but i could be wrong", "where it says you know who they call if we could have pictures", "and again if we have i think one of the volunteer services available to us as somebody who was willing to do web work", "somebody could snap a picture and say found in this spot on this day you know any kind of picture or we can even call because i mean that's i think an important resource", "and then if we can even link out to like local shelters and things of that nature where the shelter can say okay click here to visit the city's temporary holding and find your dog", "i mean you know we're in the world of information technology now that's the way everyone navigates and it just seems like that's an easy lift for us", "we've met with", "i'm sorry go ahead", "i had a conversation with steve carrizo we're looking to implement that type of program right after labor day to be able to get photographs of dogs as they come in be able to post them in again the real goal is that we don't have any animals in that facility", "we've started over the last year is doing the dog licenses so dogs have the tags on that we can identify when they do get loose and we're able to return them to their owner", "and it also narrows down and group of owners that probably should not have a pet to begin with", "because they create an environment where the pets and dogs really become vicious or not really conducive to the city at all", "the pets become victims when it's really the owners that have facilitated that or created an environment that allows it to happen", "i respect that but i also think there's another contention of people whose dog digs under the fence and takes off you know and they're great owners", "and i think you know again it's almost no cost to the city to have that website", "but again if that dog has a tag on it when it gets out underneath the fence it is very quickly identified and able to be reunited with its owner", "my question is regarding feeding the dogs you said you're down to once a day", "well that's after consulting with people that are very familiar with dogs they said that's fine", "so once you have people that are hired part time is that now because you don't have enough staff is that why that there's no one to clean up behind the dogs after they've gone back", "so there's no one to clean up", "so once you hired more staff which is what you're talking about will that change will they now be able to be fed more than once a day", "i don't know i'm not sure", "i mean that's something that it was recommended to me that you know they only have to eat once a day and i got it from more than one source so i don't find that acceptable myself", "i mean i'll certainly look into it again", "and you also mentioned they're going to be creating an outdoor run so the dogs can get out exercise", "that's yes something that we're looking into", "i don't have a commitment yet on that but there's some issues with that we have to be conservative and there are diseases and what kind you know is it gonna be grass is it gonna be pavement how do we need to clean it we have to seal it i mean there's issues in how it's gonna be designed so i mean it's early stages that we're looking into that just a lot of questions", "but obviously there's people have it there's facilities that have it so we'll tap into them and we'll question them just the same way we did when we built this facility", "we went out in the field and talk to a lot of people went to different facilities and figured out what the best way to do it", "go with this one", "is there any way at some point you're partnering with the county to have a county run facility i mean we can look at those options it was put in place because those options were some were just not taking their dogs", "the cost was so high in terms of running it and transporting them", "i mean it's a clean facility where we have it you know for what i've seen at the time", "and of course we're talking about it may be cleaned off if we're not feeding the dogs enough but we'll put that aside", "it's not even brad shear who said that", "no matter how my facility is taken care of", "so i'd like to see maybe at some point we can talk to the county in a partnership you pay towards it with the county to try to combine or maybe have this facility replaced", "it might be more conducive having volunteers to come in", "cause that's not the ideal place for anybody to go actually and i know again i understand it's a shortterm facility but i think that place has an issue", "that's my personal feelings", "any other questions i was just gonna suggest too we may wanna ask for kind of regular updates as this stuff happens", "three part time", "two full time and hopefully three part time", "well i would like to see cause it's possible for us to do so volunteers safely for the city and police contracts", "and also where we like to sample control position to another position should we come up in a situation that we're shortstaffed", "i think those are needed things that we have to look into", "other things will take time but those were met in i understand the mayor's work in the website and that'll happen after labor day", "so those would be my three priorities right now", "in the meantime i'm just gonna be a little looking into the feeding thing", "cause we couldn't be perfectly in line with that", "i mean i don't know what the guidelines are but i'm willing to do a little bit of research on that too", "but those are some things i'd like to see at our next committee agenda and that had this doing here", "so you're asking for another update to two weeks i would like an update on the possibilities of whether that animal control position can default to and what our legal safety zones are in utilizing volunteers how we might utilize volunteers to work for us", "two weeks", "sure", "thank you", "well any other business before public safety second all in favor aye", "thank you", "and recreation the one thousand nine hundred and fifty four anniversary the 60th anniversary world series", "this august is when i think it's happening", "some people will be here from saturday", "second second", "all in favor aye", "anything else yes", "maybe we should discuss some options", "they did say they could take care of the field", "they have volunteers to take care of things", "i think it's sometimes", "and would that have an announcement that helen recreation will meet this wednesday morning at nine hundred am here in room one hundred and ten recreation will be discussed", "additionally the affirmative action advisory committee will have their first organizational meeting on august 27th at six hundred and fifteen pm in room two hundred and nine", "is there anything else for helen recreation committee oh i'm sorry we're in recess", "second", "all in favor adjourned", "so we're adjourned", "okay call to order public service and utilities energy efficiency and water system improvement project mr johnson", "good evening good evening", "any information you have an agreement with johnson control system for the professional development agreement", "the last couple years we've been looking at our water meters throughout the city we have about one thousand four hundred and fifty after the counts meters range anywhere from one year old to seventy five years old", "it's a mishmash of meters where we have reiterated below take an actual photograph of the meter", "it goes back to the office we subtract the last present", "it's very time consuming and not efficient", "so professional development agreement is performance contract plays", "with johnson controls does we recommend doing indepth evaluation of the meters of typing and sizing", "the revenues gained will pay for the project", "cost of this is fifty three thousand five hundred", "it's only paid if the city doesn't enter into an agreement to do the full meter replacement these are automatically read meters", "so they'll just go through a meter upgrade", "they get about four thousand meters with johnson controls", "right along with them five hundred meters in less than an hour", "they'll be one thousand four hundred and fifty meters in stickiness", "we've already done some attrition over the last couple years with the meter reader and that's in the office", "and if we move forward with this project those positions don't have to be", "we don't move forward with this project and we're gonna need the help because we're not efficient in pulling the guy off the distribution to read the meters and put it in the distribution system", "if the project moves along with the fifty thousand rolled into the cost of the project", "and we do have funding set aside the last few years we have replaced in capital funds we have put aside that will come out of there", "any question you said for the total project so you have an estimated possible", "no not yet the city doesn't want the meters", "so one of the problems we have is all those replaced meter meters so if this project moves forward", "we will take responsibility for the meters especially meters through the meters we're building they're not accurate", "we're losing revenue every day", "and we know that there's a number of meters fifty sixty seventy years old", "they're not accurate anymore", "and one thing i know is they're doing the sizing of piping", "when you put a meter in you don't go and just put a meter in", "it has to be sized it has to be perfect", "pat is familiar with that", "and that's something that's very important is extremely pleased with the work that they did", "we reduced vehicle on the road every day of the week for ten months out of the year to couple of days out of the year", "just follow up you said that scotia has four thousand meters three thousand seven hundred meters yeah", "so what statement they did residential or commercial", "we only have commercial", "that's not my question", "so they didn't do residential we're limited to commercial and", "a few years", "i think there's was about fourteen fifteen million set aside to do meter upgrade", "it's an expensive process", "i'm not sure what but i can actually find out", "okay that'd be great", "but again they did almost four thousand meters", "are there other questions yes yes at around three hundred and thirty just above the break", "there happened to be", "yep it's already closed", "they've already got it open", "it should be done within a couple of hours", "and feed of 70yearold pipe", "the rest of the pipe is about eighty five years old", "just so i know", "from campbell to broadway going into the subway", "they should be done within a few hours", "typically the crew is there they get in and get out the backup is there", "they already have the hole opened up", "they will be working on another plan valve replacement at four or five this morning", "so that's a plan about", "yes they're gonna form of health departments", "when are you gonna start this project this study yes", "we'll enter it once the professional development agreement is signed after next monday night it's signed by the mayor", "we'll have them start", "we've already started getting them some information", "the way we generally we extract information out of munis meters", "one thing we realized is the munis system is only going up to six inch meters", "now right now we have a couple of eight inch meters in the city", "munis system have enlisted", "they start with the large meters because we're trying to extract the information for them", "thank you", "is there any second i'll second", "all in favor aye", "okay anything else thank you", "all in favor", "aye", "we're adjourned", "area turns out this is part of the paper street didn't have an spl the resolution was great that the council passed", "it only was for this area because the spl covers the whole area so we would really like to see amended resolution for future reference", "i'll move it", "second", "aye aye", "right that move will go into executive session", "second", "all in favor", "aye", "give me an 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anyone no match", "chief is this for houses we spent in two thousand and twelve or is this for next year it is assuming we get all the paperwork in order", "generally it takes about another once council approves it another thirty to ninety days to get that done", "as soon as we can we'll order it", "we are in the process of purchasing new cars as well so when we get these cars out we'd also like to schedule to get those in get all those in there", "it looks like it goes through two thousand and four to now", "so there'll be there's a two year window of extension", "there's no extension for the program", "homeland security historically has provided extensions if needed for a lot of this technology and our newer technology in the next three to four years", "on this case they're trying to shorten the window even though the signatory page if you're wondering we have mailed it electronically and they'll send it back to us so it expedites the whole process of events", "okay so is this revenue then what will be quarterly is it in the budget no it's not", "two thousand and thirteen this one is not", "it's created for it's t line or t i put a what i called t minus within our budget and we'll have a separate line for our grants and then have it all draw down right there on the t line", "until you get a separate fund it's called the m fund not the t fund t is for seating", "and you put all the grants in the separate fund because they're much easier grants yes", "so it's separate it's not gonna be part of the general fund", "you can't separate it in a separate fund and try to separate it", "okay", "any other questions i second", "okay", "all in favor aye", "thank you chief for that", "i have one more item to come before public safety i was just given it tonight", "it's a ceremonial for the month of october being domestic violence month and so i would like to have a resolution for monday night for that", "mayor are you going to turn the lights on tonight do i understand i don't know if they did it today or if the window okay", "okay great", "any questions about that group said those in favor aye", "all right", "seeing nothing else to come before public safety the meeting will be adjourned", "second those in favor aye", "we all agree", "we're adjourned", "sheriff call to order the finance committee for the monthly hearing concerning the proposed two thousand and thirteen budget", "as you know that mayor proposed presented his proposed two thousand and thirteen budget yesterday and everybody has a package", "maybe gary can go over that a little bit afterwards but we are calling for a public hearing on the 22nd of this month", "and i apologize i wasn't here", "i was out of town so i missed the full presentation", "is there gonna be another presentation today or is it going to be next week or was that it the what we called full presentation it's a summary of the details of the upcoming project the budget project", "securing reviews of the budget kind of line by line", "it's just the statutory evaluation for the public hearing on the public calendar", "did you get a copy of the powerpoint i got a copy of the powerpoint yes", "not the budget just the oh", "it's already on the website", "it was put on the website", "i can yeah i can give you a package", "i can give you a copy", "i brought actually a package for you", "it includes everything", "the powerpoint and everything", "and lisa needs one as well", "i already gave it to her", "she came in late so", "it's on the 22nd of october call for publicating", "all right", "moved second", "all in favor", "aye", "next thing up csca benefits trust discussion", "as part of the it's really been a yearlong review incorporated into the budget posted it today to the council", "we need to switch over to csca strategic benefit trust", "we'll shift and last year we incorporated roughly a million dollars in savings in healthcare and that again was done without any reduction in benefits", "this budget that was presented council incorporates approximately a half a million dollars in savings that is projected through shifting to the csca trust and again that is being done in a manner to maintain benefits at the same level and we have laura bilag here out from csa who could pave over just a quick summary of it and then any specific questions the council has because a lot of this is very detailed in nature that if individual council members want separate briefings they want a full presentation at some time then by the time you go through all the i mean it can take sometimes two hours or longer", "we just wanted people to start to understand the process that we're looking to go through", "with your permission i'd love to okay thank you", "as the mayor indicated my name is laura bilag", "i am the fund manager for what is called the csca strategic benefit trust", "it's a 501c5 tafthartley welfare fund", "it does state csca in the name", "it was csca's initiative although it is a separate and distinct entity from the labor union", "we are allowed under this filing as a trust to bring in the various unions that are represented in the city as well as throughout the state", "and we have a lot of flexibility as a trust it's also a labor management trust so there is a board of trustees with both labor and management sitting on it", "it's not that that board of trustees decides what the benefits are they just kind of gear you know and bring the trust into different areas that may be relevant in the industry as far as what we offer", "in the case of the city we were asked to come in and meet with the mayor the various unions and propose some suggestions to save the city some money without changing benefits because we do recognize that you have different unions within the county that negotiate their own contracts and have their own benefit structures", "we can actually take your current existing plans through mvp", "you have an epo and a ppo and i see you do have my sheet so you do have some information in front of you and switch that into the trust without as the mayor said changing any of the benefits structures", "as you go forward in negotiations if those benefits should change we can just follow suit and change them with the carriers", "so basically right now the city has an epo plan that is insured", "you already have the city plan which is selfinsured", "your epo plan though has twice as many members in it", "approximately five hundred and seventy eight covered lives or participants i should say", "what we have proposed is to selfinsure that", "that saves you money on taxes it saves administrative fees there are various components in insured arrangements versus a selfinsured arrangements that can bring money to the table", "so our proposal effective one thousand one hundred and thirteen is to bring it back under the trust again no change in the method of design convert the current epo over to a selfinsured arrangement looking for stockloss insurance and stockloss insurance protects the city because when you selfinsure you're taking the risk okay but you're large enough to do that but you also want to prevent any high cost claims", "so you have what's called stoploss insurance so if the claim reaches a certain threshold there's a third party insurance company that insures that claim for you so that the city is at risk for that high cost claim", "the other thing that's a little bit different but it's not a change of benefit is that we're going to carve out the existing prescription drug component which is now covered under mvp through medco and we're going to transition that benefit to a syracuse based pbm called proact", "proact has a relationship with the already international drug vendor that's used under the city plan canrx for the international drug benefit", "proact has a relationship with them which is a positive relationship because what they do is they interchange their data", "so there's what's called dur drug utilization review which has always been somewhat of a criticism of the international drug program because if you know the pdm and the international drug benefit don't know what drugs you're on", "if you're filling drugs through a drug store and then through the international program they can't always tell if it's going to have a side effect or maybe you shouldn't be on it", "proact and canrx actually work together", "so they do realtime dur so there's an extra safety precaution there and also by taking the planning going fully selfinsured everybody will be extended the voluntary benefit of the international drug benefits", "so that's gonna generate some savings as well", "or without being so no problem with the ninety day prescriptions being filled or anything", "nope it'll be you'll still have the same benefits as medco you'll still have your retail pharmacy network you'll still have your mailorder domestic ninety day plus you'll have the voluntary option of doing the international drug through canrx which is a ninety day brand medication only plan", "there may be and what we're going to look at this in the very near future there made me a very slight change in the formulary which happens every year in every prescription plan no matter if you change a pbm or not just because what does that mean that means like lipitor for example recently went generic", "okay", "so when you have a formulary pbm is a pharmacy benefit", "thank you", "you usually have a generic yeah", "if you have a generic it depends on how it's set up", "sometimes you have preferred drugs and then nonpreferred drugs", "anytime a drug comes out with a generic or brand name like a lipitor it'll automatically put the brand name on the non preferred column meaning the highest copay and the generic on the preferred generic the lowest copay", "so your formularies do change no matter what but we're going to look at this and talk with the city to see what the actual disruption is and you know we can do a couple of different things", "we can grandfather in those folks that are on those drugs that might have a change in what tier they go in we can grandfather them in altogether but any of that if you decide that you're gonna change the formulary which again would have changed anyways under medco i need to stress that because i don't want you to think that it wasn't going to change there's a way to communicate that", "and there's always a transition period", "so if you're on something that's going to go to the next higher tier you'll have like at least ninety days to continue to use that medication talk to your doctor and find a different medication that works", "so that's discussions that we'll be having with the city", "i don't see a major disruption at all so it's a really it's a positive thing", "proact also is very not to be redundant proactive in when a person is on a medication and there is a generic available to steer them towards a generic because it's a generic equivalent it's the same drug and when they need to be on a brand name drug they'll steer towards the brand name drug and if it's a brand name drug that's handled in the international drug program they'll steer them towards that because that not only that has a savings of about at least forty we've seen over the years to any employer", "that the drugs purchase internationally are forty cheaper", "it has stood true since the day we implemented it in schenectady county many many years ago", "so that will also produce a savings", "the last thing that i think we're pretty excited about is the wellness initiatives through mvp", "they have that live well work well program but as you may know the city has been talking mvp has been talking to the ellis hospital system about not only promoting some wellness initiatives but possibly arranging some initiatives with mvp directly for care meaning that you know there might be some arrangements and i've seen this personally out in lewis county whereas if you can steer members to what you feel are quality programs through your local hospital system or urgent care systems in the system itself you know you can not only save money in your claims but you typically incent the employee to go there by removing a copay", "so it's a winwin but it saves the city money", "if you want me to go step by step on the savings i can", "basically when you go from an insured product to a selfinsured product you have a onetime cash flow", "it's not really a savings what it is is is that you don't incur claims right away on your medical side your prescription drug you do because that's real time at the drug store when you fill a prescription they slide that card that's real time", "claims tend to come in a lot slower", "so you'll see a fifteen to eighteen cash flow savings which is just about over a million dollars that'll be put to reserves to pay your future claims", "an increase in the medical loss ratio", "medical loss ratio you may have heard in the press recently with healthcare reform", "that basically is for every dollar spent in premium you expect something in return and in this case for every dollar in premium what we saw was about an eighty i believe it was an eighty one of that dollar being spent on medical care okay the rest is administrative whatever", "what we're proposing is that we can increase that medical loss ratio to about eighty nine ninety which will generate some savings", "changing the prescription drug vendor to proact as well as extending the canrx option to the remaining employees that don't currently have it will result in additional savings reduction in the stop loss expenses", "stop loss again ensures the county for claims over a certain threshold", "there was some reductions in expenses there with a total savings on this sheet i think shows about eight hundred thousand conservative probably five that's what we're carrying the budget is roughly five hundred thousand or again as we start this up there is some transition it's a little bit unknown but there's a lot of opportunity to better manage our care and do some of the wellness things", "we're going to emphasize that we would still stay with mvp", "this really becomes a seamless transition in terms of the employee viewing this", "so somebody who has a claim in december somebody has a claim in january wouldn't see any difference", "the benefits are still gonna be paid out but we're going to have the opportunity going down the road to have better just review of our actual costs and how do you manage that how do you keep employees healthier how do you you know take advantages of what i will call the dynamic changes that are occurring in healthcare none of us know what's going to happen in washington election november what's going to happen in january but this positions us to be the most flexible in getting kind of plot our own destiny in terms of controlling costs and maintaining the high level of benefits for the employees and their dependents", "yeah it really gives us it gives the city in working with us a lot more control over your claims because it makes it that much easier because it's your you are the one that's a claim is a claim", "claims incurred you pay the claim", "it's not you know yes there's a third party mvp or proact or whomever but it really becomes your data that you can go through and find you know what are your percentages of diabetics what are your chronic conditions and then how do you go in with a wellness program and try to help those folks and then reduce the overall expense", "i have just a couple of questions to ask just because i'm not understanding it fully", "so i understand right now we i think just a basic perspective we pay mvp you know a premium they employ they ensure our employees", "employees get sick and we pay it as a bill we pay the premium just like your car insurance you know you don't have to do it individually", "what do you i mean jerry said that we'd still be going through mvp with it", "what are you bringing in what are you adding to that the trust brings in the ability because mvp has formed a relationship with us to reduce their administrative fees and to work with us closely as we work with our clients in this case the city to try to steer the population into healthier lifestyles better claims experience better utilization of the healthcare dollar", "so mvp is still on the backside paying the claims because it's their network", "they're doing the processing of the bill", "they're doing the processing of the claim okay so the mechanics of that is you know the member will still go to the doctor will still have an mvp card they don't have a trust level on it but it'll be a mvp card to an mvp network doctor", "they submit the claim the doctor submits the claim to mvp mvp processes it and mvp then bills us we bill the city", "so we're kind of an intermediary there and we also help in tracking that and reporting it and working with the city through their healthcare committee or however in the future", "and so mvp then takes that hundred dollar bill from the doctor's office they mark it up to a hundred a certain amount typically it's the other way around", "they negotiate it down", "okay so whatever they end up paying the doctor's office yeah", "we pay them plus a processing fee right you're paying them an administrative gain which we've knocked down from the current", "so what is an administrative fee do we know what is is it consistent or is it variable it's a consistent fee per member per month", "okay", "just so i can take a sum of that how much is that fee do we know roughly sixty", "we're going to be providing that final accounting number after but that's per contract per month and right now it's in the twice stacked range so sixty per month per employee", "employee member", "per member per month which is an employee", "per member", "we have about eight hundred covered lives just under two thousand", "eight hundred employees just under two thousand covered lives", "it's a family of four it's sixty for each person no just for the employee", "just for the employee okay", "sixty a month per employee", "okay", "and that's what they had marked up or that's their processing fee", "that includes all the services", "that's what they get paid out of pocket okay", "and then from there it goes to you right you are then adding up functionality in terms of helping send our employees to the right direction right", "choosing the generic versus the name brand things like that", "well that's the proactive component but yes", "okay", "and so then what is the with each of the vendors there is a built in administrative fee that will come to us", "each of the vendor meaning doctor's office mvp", "mvp okay", "proact", "so that's included", "okay so there's no additional charge", "so mvp is gonna get sixty bucks and they're gonna get a portion of that sixty to you yes", "okay", "yeah it's called i like to call it an administrative service credit", "we can't take as a trust any commissions so you're saving money as you are what i said before by going selfinsured you're saving on the insurance tax because when you're an insured product you have to pay the state of new york tax which is typically about two of premium and so we save you that and that's where some of those savings is generated", "all right so this is basically sixty per employee that's our total costs on top of whatever medical expenses anybody claims or claims", "use right claim", "and then you have the medical loss i guess the stop loss which is kind of the if there's a huge claim someone falls out of an airplane and it's ten million worth of expenses right i don't like the airplane but yeah", "but some high dollar metal one time you know unusual circumstances very costly that kind of limits or liability so to speak right that's a five hundred thousand limit it's a one hundred thousand limit", "oh a one hundred thousand limit", "per employee or okay", "ten thousand per employee", "and then what is the cost of that insurance meaning for us do we have an estimate currently your stoploss costs on your city plan which is already partially copay one hundred and twenty five per employee who participates per month and currently our quote on that are significantly less in the eighty range per employee who participates", "yeah just to understand and i apologize this is eric lentilla he's our senior consultant for the trust just so that you know who's talking", "you currently have stop loss for your city plan so this would just be an extension of that", "but we actually feel as we can reduce that amount drastically to bring in it's going to be in the forty range per employee even though we won't know that until we actually go out", "right now it's one hundred and twenty five right and so you said about eighty", "eighty something", "eighty three and change so forty less", "oh forty less okay", "all right so eighty plus to sixty right it's one hundred and forty per employee on top of whatever medical expenses they have", "okay", "i just wanted to bring to light too cause like we kind of glanced by it", "i believe our per employee administrative cost is now about double what you said", "this is in dollars right i thought that kind of got lost and i think that's important too", "absolutely", "any other questions just one more question", "is this a function of this trust would they be looking at an audit of employee insurance people who may have double insurance if they work at state people have insurance from where they work somebody works for the state somebody works for the city of schenectady both their insurers are through there", "is there a way to determine that a city's not paying certainly not twice but somebody is already insured under a spouse's insurance or a family plan is there a way to determine that wouldn't include that person that they're already insured quite honestly that's probably something that would have to be negotiated", "there are things that i don't know", "does the city offer a buyout currently yes we do", "we also opt the buyout to single members and to families", "they're not advised to take advantage of that", "but what about our retirees or maybe who have lost a spouse in their retirement and yet there's still well there is a thing that you can do which is called eligibility and what that does is it looks at dependence", "the state of new york actually just undertook a huge study", "unfortunately the results of that that came out then the governor passed the expansion of dependent students and then through healthcare reform you can now cover your child up to age twenty seven", "so everybody who took a walk had to be put back on but there are i'm not sure that we could find a company that would do it for you it's a very specific focused type of study and you know you've got you have some hipaa stuff that you need to be careful of but there are studies out there", "it does cost money", "i don't know what the roi would be return on investment would be for a group of your size but if it's something that you've never undertaken it might be something that you want to talk about considering the future because sometimes there are savings there", "i just said will employees be required to have reenrollment now too since you know you just talked about how the part's changing so are our employees going to have to complete new forms to get this new insurance no what they'll do is go through your typical option transfer period that you have", "they will get new cards that show that it's the trust but as far as reenrolling no because it's the same exact two plans", "okay", "so during the actual transfer period we'll be around doing employee information days and what have you just to explain the change of the administration but there is no change in benefit or plan", "we want to try and start this as early as we can so we get as much information out in what i also call this dynamic review of health care on an ongoing basis", "generally the unions have been fairly open and willing to discuss scenarios give better healthcare you know manage health problems better and just ensure the wellness of employees retirees and dependents", "is this a would this be a term agreement with the city trust or this is done annually", "annual grants we're looking to do it january 1st through december 31st", "even though i would say we're looking for a longterm relationship with this in terms of the flexibility there is afforded under this scenario", "i just would like to turn in my one thing", "as far as canrx is concerned right now you're offering canrx only to the guys who are in the city plan on a watertrip basis but now we need standing on a watertrip basis for everyone who's in that ethio plan", "right right", "you mentioned the unions that i mean does there need to be more discussion with the unions this would transfer in place so that none of this shift would have to be negotiated", "even though we have negotiations open with some of the unions and there's discussions on how to just better use the wellness plan through mvp how do you do things with ellis medicine that are not directly dealing with the benefits so that everybody still gets the same level of coverage but it's somewhat just the added discussion of how do you better help the employees how do you manage chronic conditions how do you avoid conditions to the people you know having an annual physical just staying ahead of the curve early diagnosis of problems or symptoms", "who currently mvp provides the processing who currently provides the stop gap insure that limit the liability limit insurance is that mvp as well or is it a different insurance company it's aii it's are you talking about provider of the stoplaws we're looking at renegotiating that as well if we can have a competitor's quote as less", "so we're seeing if we can maintain the current provider but if not then we will switch providers", "you have the ability to go out and bid it out and get just so you know there are specific carriers that only deal with stoploss", "it's typically not the health plan", "okay", "alright cool", "so part of that was where that number may vary a little bit where it's the projection is eighty three and change or something coming down from the one hundred and twenty", "so that may vary a little bit based on the actual quote but it's still a significant number of dollars on the table", "hopefully comes way down", "okay", "well we'd like to get it down by better managing some of this things", "you see the opportunity some of the stuff that jim kelly's talking about at ellis medicine some of the things that are in place with mvp it's all here within the community", "and again we don't have we've got a group that's big enough so that you can stand alone on it but it's still small enough so that you can do some of these creative things and again better control the cost", "i agree", "sounds like a good idea", "great", "any other questions do we need to move anything on this or we just i need a resolution to effective january one as far as the budget", "okay", "and so i mean even though we don't have the exact given given bid out the price well this would start that process", "they then would take a while to get the quote and finalize those numbers", "okay", "all right", "looking for a motion to enter an agreement with csea trust is that what we're looking to do yes", "just one more question before you go", "are we going to be able to see what the city uses as an existing plan right now like cost benefit analysis sidebyside with the csca plan yep we can do that", "you mean the sidebyside benefit comparison it's the exact same", "the benefits are going to be exactly the same", "not the benefits", "i mean the cost", "cost analysis", "yeah we can do the summary of that and actually some of it is it's summarized here without the cost being on the other side", "so these are the estimated changes you know you know like stoploss with the prescription change the medical loss ratio we're going to pick up the cash flow of the roughly fifteen lag in that first you know thirty to sixty five days", "the last benefit management folks that we have is what first niagara", "first niagara", "flirts niagara can we get something though that kind of shows our savings from this to this yes", "yes we can", "okay great", "i think that's going to be helpful because there may be questions coming up from other individuals about why this company and not that company and just so we have the figures and we're convinced it's the right way to go", "i mean i certainly trust what you're saying but it would just be nice to have it there too", "all right thank you", "i appreciate that", "anybody have any questions i'll move that we enter into contract with csca benefit trust", "second", "all in favor aye", "can we have that summary done by monday will it be ready for council i know again most of it's outlined here but we'll get it down so that you can sounds good", "anything else before finance committee just going to say did anybody have any general questions about the budget i haven't seen it yet", "i haven't looked at it yet", "it was my understanding that the mayor was giving his presentation again tonight", "is that changed i was going to do this summary again if you wanted it so that would be helpful", "yeah", "i too was out of town", "you say you got we got the powerpoint", "the actual budget proposal is a reduction in overall spending of three hundred and seventy eight thousand for a little under a half a percentage point cut", "the kind of second summary is our overall tax levy which has been fairly stable but there's been an upward trend in that in the proposal for two thousand and thirteen is thirty two million one hundred and twenty thousand", "it's a ongoing problem here in schenectady where you just compare the state aid formula our friends in state government you look for some rationale in the formula schenectady gets a little over eleven million one hundred and twelve million", "troy our good friends in troy nice people there are sixteen thousand people less in troy they get a full million dollars more", "you know utica sister city which is more comparable in size even though there's four thousand people less it's a full five million more and niagara falls which in the had some rough times like all upstate cities they get seventeen million", "it's a huge chunk above you know what ours is in the eleven million", "and there doesn't seem to be any rationale in that formula", "it puts the city of schenectady just at an inherent disadvantage", "looking at revenue items that increase payment lieu of taxes goes up by eight hundred and eighty thousand", "that's from some of the pilots that are in place and they ramp up each year", "so that there's a greater amount that's paid and it's also something that is because of the ge island dream that is in place", "the county sales tax agreement with the money for the demolition gives us an additional seven hundred and nineteen thousand our trash and refuge charges go up by over four hundred thousand", "our interest in penalties and real property tax projecting an increase of four hundred thousand the sale of properties that we're taking in foreclosure and doing the rehab projecting approximately three hundred thousand on those and eric in the code office we still have such a high rate of noncompliance from the rental certificate fees and just getting rental certificates in place the code enforcements and the neighborhood sweeps now we're getting better data on that better follow up and they're really doing a great job in code enforcement", "a full year ago we had tom wilson come in and reorganize that put controls in place better objectives put measureables there", "i believe that we can bring in so he's added all of that in a additional two hundred and eighty thousand in rental fees or rental certificate fees", "the outstanding issues from parking fines and related citations of the police department ten of that is two hundred and thirty five thousand", "it's a conservative number", "that number has grown to what's owed us is in excess of two million and i believe also with confidence that the police department with a more aggressive inspection on trucks and some other vehicle and traffic enforcement activities we can bring in additional one hundred thousand on that", "and those are primarily vehicles that exceed the weight limit", "they have like anything in life you have people who engage in a high level of compliance and then people who kind of push the edge and you get a lot od trucks that are overweight and are noncompliant", "they tend to have the greatest wear and tear on our roads", "and there's also a fairly steep fine structure in place there where the revenue goes to the locality", "so looking to be more aggressive in that", "yes sure", "three things", "the pilot could you provide a detail of the pilot breakdowns yeah we can do the full summary of that", "okay and the other thing for the rental certificate fees and the delinquent parking fines do we have a number on that in terms of percentage of compliance with the rental certificates are we you know i think in terms of measuring if we're at ten compliance we say hey we have a goal to say we want to get to fifty the complaints by one year eric's not here", "you know and with the delinquent parking fines similar you know we write a hundred tickets do twenty of them get paid or the rental certificates", "if you asked me that a week ago i could have told you the number", "tonight i'm drawing a blank", "on the delinquent parking fines the police department's grossly inept that we're not doing the followup", "this number's roughly just ten cents on the dollar", "that's what are we currently getting in terms of are we getting what was our current number we do i have that folder here stand by for slides", "right and that's why this is from memory but the rental certificate will get you the information in the pilot", "the other slide farther down may answer your question on the parking", "okay", "major expenses last year we paid our retirement bill in full", "this year i'm recommending that we amortize it", "that results in a net savings of about one million three hundred thousand", "again that cost has gone up", "our bill this year will be eleven higher than last year", "it is a substantial number that and we have no control over determined that the state total", "what's the number our total contribution for the retirement dues if you want to advertise it it would have been twenty one million for the ers for the employees and about sixty five for the police department", "that's what we have here", "do we anticipate having to amortize it in future years or is this just a onetime i don't think we've amortized in the past have we no", "i don't know", "i would like to say that we would not have to do it and it really becomes a component of the growth rate", "controller's office has taken a very conservative projection in terms of the growth rate of both the common retirement fund and then the police and fire retirement fund", "and as a result of that it passes the costs down to the localities local governments and just the retirement payments are a third of our tax money right i mean running the numbers here", "that's kind of an unsustainable situation", "i mean i think amortizing it isn't necessarily solving it", "not that i have an answer for how you solve it but it just seems like it comes to the rate of return and the management of that fund at the state level", "in some years the city's contribution is pretty close to zero where the fund was aggressively managed profitably managed aggressive may be the wrong term for pension funds", "but again now the assumptions there i believe are overly conservative", "but we don't have any so discretion", "they send us the bill we can pay it", "we can either pay the full amount or can they've allowed local governments this mechanism to amortize some of it so it levels those payments off a little bit and minimizes the impact of these years when we've had again double digit increases", "is there any interest associated with that yes", "the three for this year they don't know you know what is going to be for the next year but these are cardinals like in two thousand and four the city did the same thing but we ended up paying it back in two years", "how many years were we amortizing that's for ten years", "ten years", "you have the option of it but it's payable in ten", "what do we think we're going to run out ten years i don't know the answer to that", "probably in the three to four year range and assuming some stabilization at the state level then what's the interest rate last year it was three", "this year it was three so we want a good long cardinal they have that issued the number for last year but it's gonna roughly that range", "the post cost of the police department this year down two hundred and sixty four thousand overall employee salaries down one hundred and twenty one thousand our debt service is down eighty five thousand we see an increase of employment insurance by one hundred and thirty two thousand we're looking to budget two hundred and twenty five thousand increase for judgment and claims", "in our hospital and medical insurance again even we're objecting the half million dollars in savings from csca we'll still see a six hundred and eighty thousand increase in overall cost", "what's driving that claims and just medical expenses", "and that's why i believe shifting to this format gives us better controls and again if you want some of those more detailed numbers matt can provide those to you where we've just gone out for quotes with the mvp and other vendors", "the fire department budget has an increase of seven hundred and forty one thousand", "that is being done now with where those staffing increases would offset some overtime costs and getting the command staff in the fire department to be able to explain and articulate the reasoning behind those as we get into the individual budget reviews of the council", "so is that so what you're saying is the offset is not figured in here", "you're going to spend seven hundred and forty one more but staffing yes", "but we're not going to see these savings in overtime cause the overtime budget may get caught by equal amount some of it is and some of it is a net increase with staffing where we've done more in terms of the arson investigations", "i viewed them at twenty five and then obviously there were contract increases", "proposing a increase in the waste collection fee", "it's about thirty eight cents a week", "we are still not seeing the level of compliance in terms of our recycling", "we have to do in a more aggressive citywide campaign to up the recycling", "because when you do the recycling you reduce the tipping fees which drops our overall cost", "and that is something that i look forward to working with the council on to deal with that", "again that's the right thing to do", "not bad", "why have you on their fence maybe they'll sell it", "that could be", "the slide the two thousand and thirteen budget has a reduction of twenty two positions", "saving's there one hundred and eighty thousand", "of those again the swimming pools or individual departments position here and there that full summary is available", "the next page has really the big problem is our collectibles where you have outstanding property tax one hundred and twenty five million and there's an excessive two million out of the police department parking fines and other summonses", "we will have a presentation on some of those corrections techniques that we're looking to implement two weeks from tonight", "you have to schedule it to put in on the calendar", "the next page looks at the delinquent property taxes from two thousand and one through two thousand and seven", "the actual numbers there are fairly low on each year as we've sold a lot of those to atf and again we had some people clear those up as we went into the foreclosure process and you can see the balances that are outstanding", "you know beginning of this year we had eighteen million outstanding", "we're down as of the end of august we're down twelve and a half million", "people are paying those every day", "and as we go through the next round of foreclosures jeb how many houses are on that potentially taking back about one hundred and forty at the end of this month", "so there's another round that where we start out with a large number of houses people come in and pay up and if they don't then we're going to take the houses go through the process to convert them back to some level of productive use and hopeful that the you know what we've lost in property taxes that we'll be able to recoup in the value of the property", "and some of those we will do well on", "some of them it's more of a challenge but i believe that we cannot just leave the blighted property and pretend that these problems don't exist", "we have to deal with them one way or the other and it's getting that message out that we're going to be aggressive about this", "that we want to work with people and the council has been very sympathetic to owner occupied properties", "in those cases we want to continue that message we want to work with homeowners try and do it but you have a high percentage of this where they are absentee landlords they're property owners who i believe largely just should not be in the business of owning property", "if they don't maintain it if they don't keep it up and people who haven't paid their taxes for three five six years there's no other message that we can send out except that we don't want you here", "and carl this is a summary of some of the numbers from parking tickets", "so it's the ones you know people are getting through that first month thirty six thousand", "and some of our actual writing of tickets have dropped a little bit", "like some of the staffing is down some of the call volume has gone up in other areas so that looking to refocus some of this effort with the traffic enforcement with the truck interdiction in some of these other areas too", "again when you have some of the traffic enforcement the positive benefit is reduction in auto accidents you get a higher compliance for just vehicle and traffic safety and the rules and you get a safer city", "and then where people don't comply you have to pay fines and this is the number where we're again today sitting here where there's two million three hundred and some thousand dollars outstanding", "so in this bunch of predicts collecting ten of that which i hope i can sit here next year at this time and tell you that was a very conservative number", "gary what is the partial pddsim what is dism dism", "the one two three four five fifth column", "dismissed maybe partially paid", "partially paid or dismissed or dismissed", "yeah basically right in the formula okay", "it may be that somebody was ticketed at one level the court may adjudicate it and say they had some reason for it which was a lower fine for other things okay", "i just didn't know what it stood for the top", "great", "and there's no way to tag numbers on this that dmv could hold their registration like they do with i have had that discussion with people in the state", "we're looking to make that part of a formal presentation", "there are some mechanisms to tag your registration or your license renewal really looking for stuff that is more comprehensive that in the past where you had somebody who ran up a lot of parking tickets they would put the car register it in the spouse's name sibling's name child's name and we're looking to find ways to avoid that and actually hold individuals accountable", "the could i yes about the parking could you know in times past they've done amnesty which people you know they get an opportunity to get a break and they owe lot they'll come and pay it", "is that being considered at all we've done it a couple of years ago and the net result was not as positive as we thought", "you do get some people that do it but it's not this big tidal wave of people realizing their civic responsibility and all of a sudden showing up monday morning and wanting to pay", "we can look at that and get it some like we could do a more detailed presentation kind of do an analysis on that", "we're in this point more skeptical of it but more than willing to discuss it or look into it", "you're wanting to see in this slide is the total number of tickets issued so we can say okay in two thousand and eleven we issued ten thousand tickets and only you know five thousand got paid or did one thousand get paid or did nine thousand gt paid", "and i know of all the tickets issued how many people are paying them how many people are not paying them look at the one thing like when you said why don't we get the property taxed we put that list out in public access and kind of there's some names that you scan", "yeah and so we put that you know we may not run everybody that's got ten ticket outstanding while we're doing this but you know pick a threshold of a hundred dollars or more put it up there get that out", "the next page deals in property tax rates where there it reflects relative stability but an upward trend", "after the reval which was a new numbers were used in two thousand and ten", "in the two thousand and twelve year we're looking at a tax rate of one thousand three hundred and thirty five", "this is on a budget i'm submitting we increase the tax rate to one thousand three hundred and ninety one", "next page says a summary of the difference in using the house placed on a hundred thousand dollars assessment", "one thousand three hundred and ninety one", "page after that again water fund sewer fund and golf fund posing no rate increases in any of those", "the water fund proposed budget is actually a slight decrease of eighty four thousand", "the sewer fund projected expenses going up by two hundred and eighty seven thousand", "there's actually a bond issue that was paid off this year so there's more money in the sewer fund to be able to deal with that", "some of that's just the old aging infrastructure and again with the golf fund projecting revenue growth of approximately a hundred thousand dollars and no projected increase in fees there", "is there any i know in the past we've had the discussion of the laterals in ownership and we had not it was still a fine", "is that part of the budget there is a component of that that is part of this budget but it is going within the existing fee structure", "and this done somewhat humorously but this is the two tax cap", "sounds simple", "makes sense to me", "you take the prior fiscal year tax levy minus the reserve amount including interest earned multiply that times the tax based growth factor then you add the pilot's receivable in the prior fiscal year minus the tort exclusion amount of the prior fiscal year and then you multiply all that by the allowable levy growth factor minus the pilots receivable in the coming fiscal year and then plus any available carry over and that comes up with your net number", "and i will not deal with any questions on that", "i don't think i came up with any surprisingly", "okay", "thank you gary for doing that with us again", "if i do it again i look forward to the ongoing discussion", "it's part of the budget review", "it is a dynamic process and given we always look for ideas and concepts to try and do things better and more efficiently", "any questions not right now", "anything else to come before the finance committee i move that we adjourn", "i second that", "all in favor of adjourning aye", "aye we are adjourned", "alright i will call to order government operations", "italianamerican tribute mr brady", "yeah so october is italian american cultural month so i'd like to propose that we honor italian americans for my proposal", "as my last name being parazzo i concur", "i hope so extended invitation for everybody to come down next monday night", "free pizza", "everyone becomes italian when there's free pizza", "we should have people from the sons of", "i assume you're going to take care of all that get the information from mr thorne terrific", "i think the displays went up this morning too", "yeah delores scooly you said i think was going to put them up yeah", "great okay", "who's gonna draft a resolution it looks like there's i thought i saw a copy of one in here yeah it's here", "oh is it okay", "yep", "it's in our packet", "it's right here", "it said draft on it", "okay", "oh look at that", "as long as i got the information", "you already did it", "i already did it it's already been done", "you know about someone to move that okay all right", "i'll move that", "okay i'll second", "all those in favor aye", "any other business to come before government operations we adjourn", "okay i'll second", "all those in favor aye", "we're going to call city development and planning to order", "mr strikeland thank you", "the planning commission has held public hearings on fourteen developments", "and right now i'm requesting a call for a public hearing and on your memo is says october 22nd", "however i just found out i cannot be at that meeting but i'd like to have the public hearing on november 12th", "and about two weeks after that", "the four changes include number one waterfront zoning", "right now we have a current height restriction of thirty five feet within two hundred feet of the river and fifty six feet which is four stories beyond", "the intent of waterfront zoning is issued to preserving the character of the waterfront and doing appropriate development there was also to create some new urbanist higher development density there and limiting the heights to really four stories did not make sense especially as you get two hundred feet is pretty far away", "what we're requesting to do instead of making it require variance we're basically just allow for fifty six feet", "anything over that requires planning commission review with a special use permit", "and most likely at least with alco i believe they will probably be coming in with an overlay or planned mixed use district", "it's not definite yet but planning commission will be reviewing the whole site together as one comprehensive unit most likely", "so that's the first change and then there's just a few minor changes", "you can see there funeral homes changes not permitted nursing homes changes not permitted to special use permit and otb parlors i'm not even sure why that's its own thing in the zoning ordinance is permitted", "waterfront otb parlors the waterfront yes", "it's on the water a lot", "i don't know", "it's a water enhanced activity i guess", "so we're going to have an otb parlor on the waterfront riverboat gambling if you wanted it it's allowed now", "if you approve it", "item two historic district review", "when we passed the comprehensive plan in two thousand and eight we added in requiring review of any state or nationally registered property", "and new york state has come back to us and asked us to remove that", "it's a disincentive for anybody who wants to become registered basically and actually they stated in a letter that i think i included with your copy", "i have a copy", "is it in there no", "i have a copy i can put in your mailbox", "it's a letter from new york state parks historic preservation requesting that that be removed", "they say we would have to basically designate any one locally anyways to be able to review it locally for a start", "the third item i believe we talked about this already but we didn't hold a public hearing", "i pulled it", "this is just changing the zoning on half of a parcel on kings road", "does that sound familiar to anybody when i was on the voting board yeah", "okay it came up", "so in nineteen we never moved forward with it but it was they were selling they were trying to sell the building and like half of it was zoned commercial and half was zoned residential", "so they got variance", "fifty five resolves on the marshall when the fifty five zoning ordinance changed it somehow and split it in half and it took us another fifty five years to figure that out and it was same ownership all that time", "so basically it's just changing the whole thing to c2 commercial and the final one is just technical corrections", "one of them is off premise time and onpremise time at the same definition so we just have to add a word in there and the rest are just corrections of numbers that are referred to in its own ordinance", "questions thank you", "now i'll entertain the motion to call for the public hearing on november 12th 12th", "so moved", "okay", "i'll second that", "all in favor aye okay", "the other item on the agenda is this is disability awareness month so i thought it would be again appropriate to a resolution", "adopted", "okay", "second second", "all in favor aye", "okay", "there's nothing else to come before city development and planning", "i'll entertain a motion to adjourn", "i will so do", "i so second", "all in favor aye", "call to order claims committee", "i believe this is a quick succession", "claim yes", "and so a motion to go to an executive session", "so moved", "is there a second second", "all in favor in going into executive session aye", "moving into executive succession"], "name": ["committee_10_01_2012/committee_10_01_2012/committee_10_01_2012_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "committee_10_01_2012/committee_10_01_2012/committee_10_01_2012_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "committee_10_01_2012/committee_10_01_2012/committee_10_01_2012_DOT_flac_00002.flac", 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to remove obstacles", "and yet another the art of compromise", "still others respond with a depth of spirituality and service not easily recognized", "and they all respond to this plenitude and accomplish great deeds for this nation revealing your glory at work in the world now and forever", "amen", "the chair has examined the journal of the last day's proceedings and announces to the house her approval thereof", "pursuant to clause one of rule one the journal stands approved", "for what purpose does the gentleman from ohio seek recognition thank you madam speaker", "pursuant to clause one rule one i demand a vote on agreeing to the speaker's approval of the journal", "the question is on agreeing to the speaker's approval of the journal", "those in favor say aye", "those opposed no", "the ayes have it the journal stands approved", "madame speaker object to the vote on the grounds that a quorum is not present and make point of order that a quorum is not present", "pursuant to clause eight of rule twenty further proceedings on this question are postponed", "the pledge of allegiance will be led by the gentleman from virginia mr moran", "i pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands one nation under god indivisible with liberty and justice for all", "you may be seated", "the chair will entertain up to fifteen requests for one minute speeches on each side of the aisle", "for what purpose does the gentleman from virginia rise consent to address the house for one minute to revise and extend my remarks", "without objection the gentlemen is recognized for one minute", "madam speaker we have a situation today where the americans are paying almost four a gallon for gasoline", "this morning goldman sachs announced that oil is going to go up to one hundred and fifty to two hundred a barrel which means that it's not going to stop at four it'll be about five or six", "now think about this", "this is a tremendous boon to iran and iraq", "iran will gain enormous wealth and political influence", "iraq will get even more revenue than the seventy two billion they're anticipated this year", "they got a hundred billion dollars over the last couple years much of it our money", "and yet americans have already contributed over half a trillion dollars to iraq's economy", "within the next couple of weeks we'll contribute almost one hundred and seventy million", "and yet we are paying to pick up the garbage and train the security forces in iraq", "when they've got surplus they don't even know what to do with", "who's time's expired", "in charge of this madam speaker for what purpose does the gentleman from texas rise address the house for one minute to revise and extend", "without objection the gentleman's recognized for one minute", "madam speaker before i came to congress i had an opportunity to serve my constituents in a different way", "i was a home builder a land developer and even a mortgage lender", "i know firsthand some of the problems that the real estate industry and the housing industry is facing today", "ninety four of the american homeowners are paying their mortgage payments on time and in full", "are some people having a hard time making these mortgage payments of course they are", "can the government help yes in some cases but i urge my colleagues to be very careful here", "we do not need for the federal government to be the piggy bank for folks that made poor decisions or to bail out the lenders that made loans to people that really didn't have the capacity to pay it back", "it's not fair to penalize those folks that made good decisions and played by the rules by taking their tax money and rewarding those who didn't", "for many of my constituents they are having a hard time just making their own mortgage payment", "what we shouldn't be doing is taking their tax money to pay their neighbors payment", "madam speaker i encourage folks to be very cautious about these bailout programs", "gentleman's time has expired", "for what purpose does the gentlemen from colorado rise permission to address the house for one minute", "without objection the gentlemen is recognized for one minute", "good afternoon madam speaker", "seven years of president bush's economic policies have put a tremendous strain on middleclass families", "since two thousand and one healthcare premiums have gone up almost six thousand", "college tuition has increased by two thousand five hundred and gas prices have more than doubled", "with these increases and paychecks that have on the average fallen it's no wonder that the majority of americans say their economic situation has not improved in the last five years", "while the bush administration is eager to give tax breaks to the wealthiest of americans and assist wall street firms like bear stearns it does little to help middle income families", "madam speaker the democratic house recognizes the immediate need to help middleclass families and that is why our budget prioritize middleclass tax relief and why we are proposing a second economic stimulus package", "it's time for president bush to put the middleclass ahead of the wealthiest few", "with that i yield back", "gentleman yields back his time", "for what purpose does the gentleman from indiana rise oh the gentleman from oregon", "thank you madam speaker to address the house for one minute to revise and extend", "without objection the gentlemen from oregon is recognized", "thank you madam speaker", "by refusing to renew the county payments program congress has broken its pledge to rural areas all across this country like grant county oregon where federal land covers sixty one of the county", "that's three hundred square miles larger than the entire state of delaware", "school children of grant county rely on the federal government to be a good neighbor", "during my most recent visit to prairie city school and the eighth grade class of andy demco i was told by the school superintendent noah cleaver that only the county payments funds through the road department have kept the schools going", "now our speaker has said she'd like this to be the children's congress", "so why won't the democratic leadership bring for a vote hr three thousand and fifty eight which is a bipartisan four year reauthorization of the county payments timber program keeping a hundredyearold commitment from this government to these counties it's been one hundred and twelve days since hr three thousand and fifty eight was made eligible for a vote", "it's here on the union calendar of the house", "we've had fifty one legislative days when it could have been brought up for a vote to help secure rural schools", "and yet the leadership of this house refuses to even schedule it for a vote on the house floor", "when will the democrat leadership of the house keep its commitment to rural communities the gentleman from oregon's time has expired", "for what purpose does the gentleman from ohio rise request permission to address the house for one minute", "without objection the gentlemen is recognized for one minute", "madam speaker as gas prices have once again hit record highs congressional democrats are urging president bush to take action", "for seven years he has sat on the sidelines and even last week at a press conference in the rose garden he concluded that i'm quoting here the costbenefit analysis of immediate action for consumers were not persuasive enough for him to act", "house democrats are calling on president bush to stop filling the strategic petroleum reserve", "this reserve is ninety seven full which is more than enough to meet any emergency we would have", "expert believe that tapping the reserve could lower our gas prices by as much as five to twenty five cents per gallon", "right now americans need help they're hurting", "president bush could take action today that would provide immediate relief to consumers at the pump but he refuses to act", "once again house democrats urge the president to reconsider", "i yield back the balance of my time", "the gentleman from ohio yields back his time", "for what purpose does the gentleman from indiana rise asking unanimous consent to address the house for one minute to revise and extend my remarks", "without objection the gentlemen is recognized for one minute", "thank you madam speaker", "madam speaker today america's eyes are turning to indiana and north carolina as tens of thousands of americans are making their decision in primary election days", "and thanks to the united states supreme court decision in crawford versus marion county election board hoosiers will be voting today with greater confidence than ever before", "the supreme court decided last week in a six to three decision that indiana's law requiring photo identification to vote is constitutional", "in its opinion the supreme court noted quote there is no question about the legitimacy or importance of a state's interest in counting only eligible votes", "it further stated quote indiana's interest in protecting public confidence in elections while closely related to its interest in preventing voter fraud has independent significance because such confidence encourages citizen participation in the democratic process close quote", "indiana's laws had its critics in this body but i rise to extol the supreme court and all of those in indiana and north carolina who with greater confidence today will exercise their franchise and guide america's future", "gentleman from indiana's time has expired", "for what purpose does the gentlemen from vermont rise to address the house for one minute to revise and extend", "without objection the gentlemen from vermont is recognized for one minute", "thank you madam speaker", "for the past seven years president bush has been delivering an energy policy that has resulted in the highest increase in the cost of energy in the history of this country", "last week the president continued his call for more of the same when he touted an old plan for domestic drilling in the arctic that would produce a six month supply of oil ten years from now", "it's not going to do anything about price at the pump now it's not going to do anything about price at the pump later", "instead the president is blaming congressional democrats for not addressing the problem but it's the president who won't suspend purchases of the strategic petroleum reserve which would bring down prices twenty five cents immediately", "it's the president who won't work with us to get rid of the enron loophole which is enriching speculators and clobbering middleclass families", "this year in fact democratic congress has passed energy legislation that's getting nowhere because of being held hostage in the senate and it has no support from the president of the united states", "the reality is that we have actions we can take on the short term the strategic petroleum reserve the enron loophole and in the long term to reduce our reliance on carbon", "i yield back the balance of my time", "gentleman for vermont yields back the balance of his time", "for what purpose does the gentleman from south carolina rise madam speaker i ask permission to address the house for one minute revise and extend my remarks", "without objection the gentleman is recognized for one minute", "madam speaker americans are paying the price at the pump for inaction of this majority", "democrats promised the american people two years ago last week that they had a plan to address rising gas prices", "it appears that plan was nothing more than election year politics", "that's a shame because right now americans are paying nearly four a gallon for gas", "the effect of these rising prices is felt not just when we fill up our tank we see the rising price at the grocery store because our food is shipped in trucks all across this country", "the american people do not expect a quick fix but they do expect us to work toward energy independence rather than simply pointing fingers and blame", "we live in a global market and many nations are competing for oil", "let's start by promoting american alternative energy", "let's invest in american oil", "let's advance american energy exploration", "the coops of america led by national president jack wolf are leading the way", "in conclusion god bless our troops and we will never forget september the 11th", "gentleman from south carolina yields back his time", "for what purpose does the gentleman from new hampshire rise to address the house for one minute to revise and extend my remarks", "without objection the gentlemen is recognized for one minute", "thank you madam speaker", "there's no doubt that the housing crisis and the consumer credit crunch are getting worse", "last week we learned that the number of homes facing foreclosure more than doubled from last year", "in my home state of new hampshire foreclosures have increased nearly ninety six", "and that is why it is so important that congress pass the comprehensive housing package that is coming to the floor this week", "the legislation is the most innovative and comprehensive solution to the housing crisis yet", "it will give relief to the millions of working families struggling to pay their mortgage with the rising price of gas and food", "it would help nearly fifteen million americans in need", "our package would also offer assistance to states and localities to purchase and rehabilitate foreclosed properties", "madam speaker our economy cannot rebound unless we act now to give relief to millions of americans in need", "we have a bold proposal to take the decisive action", "i certainly hope that my colleagues on the other side of the aisle understand the urgent need and that we will receive bipartisan support for this proposal", "thank you madam speaker i yield back", "gentlemen from new hampshire's time has expired", "for what purpose does the gentleman from texas rise to address the house for one minute to revise and extend my remarks", "without objection the gentleman from texas is recognized for one minute", "madam speaker during a telephone town meeting last night i asked my constituents do you think the media are fair and objective in their news coverage ninety one of the almost four hundred respondents said the media are not fair", "only seven said that they are fair", "this is an amazing result but not a surprising one since slanted coverage pervades much of the news americans get every day", "one of the greatest threats america faces is a biased media", "if the american people don't get the facts they can't make good decisions", "and if they can't make good decisions we won't have a democracy", "the national media need to let the american people make up their own minds not tell them what to think", "gentleman from texas yields back his time", "for what purpose does the gentleman from california rise madam to consent to address the house for one minute to revise and extend my remarks", "without objection the gentleman's recognized for one minute", "thank you very much madam speaker", "today we have an opportunity a significant milestone in israel's history", "we celebrate the 60th anniversary of truly an important time in jewish history", "my district the san joaquin valley is the bread basket of the nation but we have a unique relationship between california state university at fresno and bengurion university of the negev", "my constituents for years have been partnering with the counterparts in israel to research water irrigation technologies and agricultural solutions to problems that face our world", "fresno state has a long history in working with many leading drip and microirrigation equipment manufacturers in israel and the university has a long history of exchange of information on the agricultural research organization and the volcani center in israel including exchange programs that have brought research scientists to work on water and salinity issues", "fresno state continues today to have a discussions with israeli researchers and industry on how to extend and beneficial use of the world's evershrinking supply of water for the important purpose of feeding our world", "for this and many other reasons we recognize and celebrate the 60th anniversary of the nation of israel", "gentleman from california's time has expired", "for what purpose does the gentleman from illinois rise i ask unanimous consent to revise and extend and address the house for one minute", "without objection the gentleman from illinois is recognized for one minute", "thank you madam speaker", "i rise today to ask this house why do we continue to punish illinois and us manufacturers and farmers in the five hundred and thirty one days since the uscolumbia trade promotion agreement was signed us products exported to columbia have suffered over a billion dollars in taxes and tariffs because they were exported from the united states to columbia", "during that period of time colombian products entering the united states come in dutyfree", "that doesn't seem fair", "we have an agreement with columbia to eliminate those tariffs and every day we delay it costs almost two million in higher excuse me one hundred and ninety million a week and higher tariffs on usmade products", "the uscolumbia trade agreement is good for states like illinois", "i represent a state that's dependent on exports", "our biggest product we produce in the district i represent we have eight thousand union workers who produce yellow bulldozers and construction equipment", "something that's uncommon in places like in need in places like columbia", "let's be competitive let's eliminate those tariffs", "let's bring up for a boat the uscolumbia trade promotion agreement", "the gentleman from illinois time has expired", "for what purpose does the gentlewoman from california rise i ask permission to address the house for one minute to revise and extend my remarks", "without objection the gentlewoman from california is recognized for one minute", "madam speaker on this national teacher day i rise to single out just one of the many talented teachers in my congressional district", "libby anderson teaches second grade at grover heights elementary school in grover beach", "it's a national blue ribbon school", "she's one of those gifted teachers with a truly unique way of igniting the interest of her students", "a few years ago she led a class project where each student picked a lighthouse to study from around the country", "through that project one student learned of the federal efforts to restore the piedras blancas lighthouse in my district", "under her guidance this class embarked on a campaign called pennies for piedras to raise money toward this effort", "by the end of that school year the students had raised one thousand three hundred and thirty seven and thirty cents in pennies", "i'm happy to say that our students have gone on to lead support for continued restoration of this special place", "this is just one example of the many exceptional ways this teacher touched the lives of her students and expanded their awareness of their communities", "our country is blessed to have teachers like mrs anderson who sparks students passions encouraging them to get involved in the world around them", "i yield back", "gentlewoman from california yields back her time", "for what purpose does the gentleman from ohio rise madam speaker permission to address the house for one minute to extend and revise my remarks", "without objection the gentleman from ohio is recognized for one minute", "thank you madam speaker", "with no relief in sight for the american public as they continue to endure the cost of skyrocketing energy costs it is once again time to look at alternative energy sources to combat this problem", "china has plans to build forty nuclear power plants in the next fifteen years investing approximately fifty billion in these reactors", "united states has not licensed a nuclear power plant in thirty years while current congressional leadership refuses to even consider the notion of a nuclear power as a viable alternative energy source", "of course we don't have to leave my home state of ohio to find additional ways to increase domestic energy production", "in northwest ohio alternative energy is abundant with the only wind turbines in the state solar panel production and coal liquification technology all adding to our energy production", "whether we look at other countries or in our own backyard we must embrace alternative energy sources as one of the ways to reduce our dependency on middle eastern oil and combat skyrocketing energy prices", "i yield back thank you", "gentleman from ohio yields back his time", "for what purpose does the gentlewoman from ohio rise ask consent to address the house for one minute to include extraneous material in the records", "without objection the gentlewoman from ohio is recognized for one minute", "thank you madam speaker", "federal reserve chairman ben bernanke says congress should do more to address the housing foreclosure crisis", "i agree", "however let me respectfully suggest to the fed chairman that he too can do much more to help", "let him use his considerable power to bring to the table the very big banks that aren't coming to foreclosure workouts at the local level", "and they just happen to be the firms the fed has been rewarding handsomely by injecting billions and billions of dollars to rescue them", "you know the names citigroup jp morgan bank of america wachovia", "firms like countrywide don't even show up when borrowers at the local level try to renegotiate their loans yet the federal reserve has been rewarding them by putting them on their list of select primary dealers fancy that", "so mr bernanke let me help you out", "here's a list of the firms you can invite right now", "they're not responding to ohioans witnessing foreclosure", "countrywide chase mortgage citi financial gmac hsbc sovereign bank indi mac bank popular mortgage novastar saxon mortgage option one emc gentlewoman time has expired asc homeec wilshire", "i will put all the names in the record and we'll come back again", "thank you madam speaker", "gentlewoman from ohio's time has expired members are reminded to address the remarks to the chair", "for what purpose does the gentleman from texas rise request permission to address the house for one minute", "without objection the gentleman from texas is recognized", "madam speaker houston police officer rodney johnson was the best of the best but he was taken by the worst of the worse", "an illegal outlaw from mexico juan leonardo quintero perez shot officer johnson four times in the back of the head after a routine traffic stop", "officer johnson would still be alive today enjoying time with his five children and his wife jocelyn a fellow houston police officer if our border was protected", "this lawless trespasser had already been deported for indecency with a child in one thousand nine hundred and ninety eight but he snuck across the border again to continue a crime spree", "and after coming to houston quintero finally confessed to murdering one of houston's finest", "today quintero was in trial for capital murder in houston but the mexican government rather than pay restitution to the johnson family is paying for the battery of defense lawyers representing this coldblooded cop killer", "mexico is meddling in the us court system but juan quintero can not miss his judgment day and his day with his maker because justice is what we do in america even if the mexican government doesn't like it and that's just the way it is", "gentleman from texas time has expired", "for what purpose does the gentleman from wisconsin rise to address the house for one minute", "without objection that gentlemen is recognized for one minute", "madam speaker last week the labor department reported that for the fourth month in a row our jobs are going south", "we are losing more jobs even as the middle class is struggling just to keep their heads above water", "we're in this mess because the bush administration and its followers have failed to establish a fiscally responsible budget policy and are continuing to borrow and spend our nation into the poor house", "in response to this downturn democrats are taking action", "today we're holding an economic summit to determine how best to restore our ailing economy", "also this week we're going to begin to put together a second economic recovery effort directed at rebuilding america's infrastructure first by enacting a housing package to help establish the floor in the housing market", "and then we intend to invest in higher wage construction jobs that will stimulate local economies nationwide", "i hope my colleagues in both parties will join us in this effort to build a better nation here at home", "and that furthermore the president will understand how important this is and sign the bill we intend to enact", "gentleman from wisconsin's time has expired", "for what purpose does the gentlemen from pennsylvania rise revise and extend my remarks", "without objection the gentleman's recognized for one minute", "thank you madam speaker", "yesterday i visited a waste energy facility in lancaster county pennsylvania and concluded once again lancaster county gets it right", "this facility is a great example of the kind of ingenuity that we need to put america on a path towards energy independence", "and it is disposing of waste at the same time", "the plant burns solid waste at very hot temperatures using the heat to turn water into steam which is used to turn a turbine and create electricity", "ninety of that electricity is sold to the local electric utility", "metals glass and plastics are recycled out in the process", "this process is saving pollution from ending up in the chesapeake bay", "it's saving land by reducing the need for landfills and it's creating clean energy in the process", "one ton of solid waste has the energy equivalent of one barrel of oil", "last year over three hundred and forty two thousand tons of waste were processed at the facility and i'm told that something like thirty thousand tons of trash a day is trucked out of new york city to landfills", "maybe our state and community leaders should take a cue from the people of lancaster county's research for more energy to meet our neighbors", "pennsylvania's time has expired for what purpose does the gentlemen from iowa rise seek unanimous consent to address the house for one minute and to revise and extend my remarks", "without objection the gentleman from iowa is recognized for one minute", "madam speaker the price of gasoline is now averaging over three and sixty cents a gallon", "house democrats are working to provide some relief but we face stiff opposition from the white house and congressional republicans who have opposed every single energy bill that we've brought to the floor this year", "when it comes to energy the gop doesn't want to work with us they simply want to say no", "when democrats voted to repeal unnecessary subsidies to big oil companies so we can instead invest in clean renewable energy republicans overwhelmingly voted no", "it didn't matter that the legislation would reduce our dependence on foreign oil lower prices at the pump and create new green jobs", "they still prefer the status quo", "when democrats passed the energy price gouging act to punish those who take advantage of these record prices by increasing them even further republicans overwhelmingly voted no", "madam speaker democrats understand that hardship that families are facing every time they go to the gas station and that is why we've passed six bills that would provide real relief to consumers", "it's time republicans realized that no is not an energy strategy", "i yield back", "the gentleman from iowa yields back his time", "for what purpose does the gentleman from kentucky rise i seek unanimous consent to address the house for one minute to revise and", "without objection the gentlemen is recognized for one minute", "madam speaker i rise to recognize ms kayla bass of florence kentucky", "on february 13th two thousand and eight kayla distinguished herself when her father patrick bass a desert storm veteran suffered a seizure", "in a display of courage and maturity and composure that far exceeded her ten years of age kayla responded to the emergency quickly and effectively", "she administered first aid called her mother and grandfather while simultaneously caring for her younger brother and two cousins who were at home at the time of the emergency", "kayla attributes her quick thinking and first aid proficiency to the skills she learned in american heritage girls troop kentucky seven hundred and twenty seven", "american heritage girls is dedicated to developing young women through service to god family community and country", "in recognition of kayla's heroism american heritage girls has created the angel among us award which kayla will receive during the regional award ceremony on may 16th", "her selfcontrol during this event is impressive", "kayla we're proud of you", "madam speaker i ask you to join me in commending kayla bass for her outstanding service and character and i yield back", "kentucky yields back his time", "for what purpose does the gentlewoman from texas rise to address the house for one minute and revise and extend", "without objection the gentlewoman is recognized for one minute", "thank you", "may 1st just last thursday was the fifth anniversary of the famous words mission accomplished what a tragedy when april was the most deadliest month in iraq that we have seen in a number of months", "madam speaker i rise today to ask the administration to recognize that this unending war must end and in the backdrop of a newspaper article that suggests that the administration is looking at a five hundred million development of hotels and restaurants and amusement parks in baghdad", "i ask the administration do they get it and so that's why it's important for us to support an amendment in the emergency supplemental that says we will bring our troops home with honor", "this will go into effect one month after this legislation is passed", "seven months deadliest april troops dying", "this kind of war cannot be an unending war", "and so we refuse to give more blank checks to iraq", "we thank our soldiers on the front lines of iraq and afghanistan the war we should win", "bring our troops home with honor vote for this amendment", "and let's not give a five hundred million development of hotels and restaurants", "what are we thinking about gentlewoman from texas time has expired", "i yield back", "for what purpose does the gentleman from new jersey rise to address the house for one minute madam speaker", "without objection the gentlemen is recognized for one minute", "madam speaker as the first quarter of two thousand and eight ended last week it was clear that things are not getting any better for american families struggling to make ends meet", "americans continue to face higher costs for basic necessities millions of families have lost their homes due to the troubled real estate market and seven million more americans are uninsured", "last week we also learned that april was the fourth month in a row that our economy lost jobs", "with twenty thousand jobs lost last month our economy has now shed two hundred and sixty thousand jobs so far this year", "that's particularly troublesome considering that experts say the economy must create one hundred and fifty thousand jobs a month just to keep up with the number of americans entering the job market and all of these red flags show why it's so important that we work together in a bipartisan fashion early this year to pass the economic stimulus package", "as a result of that action one hundred and fifty million taxpayers began receiving rebate checks last week", "and that was a good start but more needs to be done", "madam speaker with so many americans struggling and the bad economic news continuing to amount we urge the president and the republicans to join us to pass a second economic stimulus package", "the gentleman from new jersey's time has expired", "for what purpose does the gentleman from new york rise madam speaker i move that the house do now adjourn", "question is on the motion i second", "question is on the motion to adjourn those in favor say aye", "those opposed no", "the no's have it", "for what purpose is", "madam speaker i ask for yay's and nay's", "the yay's and nay's are requested those favoring the yay's and nay's will rise", "a sufficient number having risen the yay's and nay's are ordered members who record their vote by electronic device pursuant to clause eight of rule twenty this fifteen minute vote on the motion to adjourn will followed by five minute votes on the approval of the journal and the motion to instruct on hr two thousand four hundred and nineteen offered by the gentleman from wisconsin mr ryan", "this is a fifteen minute vote"], "name": ["mv_house_proceeding_05-06-08/mv_house_proceeding_05-06-08/house_proceeding_05-06-08_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "mv_house_proceeding_05-06-08/mv_house_proceeding_05-06-08/house_proceeding_05-06-08_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "mv_house_proceeding_05-06-08/mv_house_proceeding_05-06-08/house_proceeding_05-06-08_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "mv_house_proceeding_05-06-08/mv_house_proceeding_05-06-08/house_proceeding_05-06-08_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "mv_house_proceeding_05-06-08/mv_house_proceeding_05-06-08/house_proceeding_05-06-08_DOT_flac_00004.flac", "mv_house_proceeding_05-06-08/mv_house_proceeding_05-06-08/house_proceeding_05-06-08_DOT_flac_00005.flac", "mv_house_proceeding_05-06-08/mv_house_proceeding_05-06-08/house_proceeding_05-06-08_DOT_flac_00006.flac", 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very good", "claire i'm bob feldman from belmont media", "we're just filming and checking in", "i love it", "see how everyone's doing what do you folks do for belmont what is the neighborhood club do were the newcomers and neighbors clubs", "so it's not just for newcomers", "it's also for all of our neighbors here in belmont", "existing neighbors", "existing neighbors", "so we're made up of anybody who would like to join us and meet their neighbors in a social environment", "so we host events once every couple of months and get all of the neighbors together so that they can meet people that they have not been able to meet in the past", "how many people do you have at any one time in your group we had an event at conley's a couple months ago we had about fifty people who joined us that night", "and we've got an event coming up in october that we're finalizing and we'll be putting up on our facebook page", "so you can find us on facebook and see the latest updates", "that's great sounds like you're doing good things", "we love it", "i'm glad and you're smiling and you're happy", "that's true", "thank you for talking to us", "thanks bob", "hi i'm bob feldman from belmont media", "what do you folks do we're danbury cross morris", "what does that mean i don't know what that means", "it's old english dancing", "sorry", "old english dancing", "old english dancing group", "particularly a certain kind that's called morris dancing hence the name", "i got you and are there groups like you all through the united states there are a lot of groups in the boston area a few up in minneapolis", "they call it new england for a reason", "morris dancing comes from england we're new england there are a lot of groups around here", "so these are english groups not irish groups", "or are they both they're from all over all over europe depends on the style", "so when's the next time you're dancing publicly around here spring", "excuse me i think it's in the spring", "in the spring", "i have to wait for the spring to go see you the adult team might have enough people to dance tonight at this event", "but we also jam the children's team might as well", "but i think this weekend we're doing a performance up in vermont with a whole bunch of other groups", "right that's a little far to go but okay", "we'll keep our eyes out for you good luck", "bob feldman from belmont media and your name priscilla hughes", "i'm sorry", "priscilla hughes", "priscilla hughes and your name elaine digiorvani", "hi there", "and tell me about the garden club", "the the garden club has been around since one thousand nine hundred and thirty", "we do all kinds of things that we feel are very important for the town", "we maintain many of the deltas all the trees on concord avenue were bought and purchased by the garden club", "those flowering trees that bloom in the spring the garden club maintains and plants the garden next to the library which has been a place that everybody enjoys during the summer time", "sure", "we give scholarships to both graduates of belmont high and for residents of belmont", "a couple of years ago we realized that belmont was drawing from a larger community so we decided to revamp our scholarship and give it to anybody who graduated from belmont high regardless of residence", "and we also of course have a residence scholarship as well", "and the scholarship is given so that it doesn't affect their financial aid but to go with it we give a four hundred book allowance so that they get a scholarship in essence of about a thousand dollars", "how many members are there one hundred and thirty five members two of which are honorary eight of which are provisional", "when you join the garden club the first two years of your membership are provisional", "and what that means is you try all the different programs that we offer community planting garden club at the manor junior gardeners woodland garden all of the different things that you see listed on that form", "i'm exhausted just hearing about it", "they try and then they pick and choose where their membership", "and we have programs for our members flower arranging", "this year we were presented with a proclamation by the selectmen for all the work we do in the town of belmont", "and we are very proud of that", "that's wonderful", "it sounds like you do great work", "we try very hard", "and it's a club that just enhances the town tremendously for everyone", "we try very hard to give back to the community because we love it and we want others to find it lovely too", "well thank you for talking to us and thank you for having a wonderful club", "and your name is adeen storer", "how are you adeen i'm great", "that's great", "tell me about the belmont cultural council", "well the belmont gallery of art is on the third floor of the homer building which is one of the government buildings on moore street", "and we do shows again and again over the year", "maybe once every two months we've got this music show that's pairing up with porchfest", "the art is art inspired by music", "and then we have a special popup fundraiser with african arts like i'm wearing wearing right here", "right", "and that's going to be on on september 10th", "and then the next show coming up is called the emotion of color", "it's abstract art for abstract artists", "it should be really interesting to be able to compare", "very nice looking yeah", "and we have all kinds of events artists talks concerts some craft making things and stuff like that", "so if your people check out our website facebook page instagram there's always something new coming up", "how many people make up the belmont cultural council oh well now the cultural council this is the gallery", "i don't know how many people make up the cultural council", "but i know that the gallery the director of the gallery rebecca richards is on the cultural council too", "sounds good sounds like you do a wonderful thing", "thank you you come up and visit us", "i will definitely thank you nice to meet you", "hi there i'm bob feldman from belmont media", "hi bob how are you i'm naomi allenburg ducasse and i am in the belmont art association and also part of belmont world film", "and they're both great organizations and erika hartwick is our treasurer", "erika hartwick i'm the treasurer of the art association", "and an artist and you can see my pictures here", "i'm a printmaker and i was assigned to sit with my team", "sounds wonderful i like that", "it's a very talented group", "once a month people can share their work and we hope to take our meetings to the media center so that we can have them for a larger group of people", "sounds like a good idea to me", "tell me you mentioned the film is that part of no i'm just the chair of the board and the founder", "all crosscultural sharing in belmont", "we have to collaborate more with the gallery", "we're going to be having our upcoming show", "it's an event that the belmont cultural council funded and it's portraits and fabric february 22nd", "but we're also having a members meeting at the beaumont gallery of art and that will be february", "i'm sorry i said february i meant september", "i knew you meant september", "september 22nd", "we can see it", "september 11th we'll be having a members meeting where somebody will be presenting their artwork", "and that will be at the belmont gallery of art", "tell me about this fire and rain", "the fire and the rain is a play all female cast twenty eight casts of characters", "as you can see over here", "it's a play or film it's a play", "likely it's going to be held at belmont town hall theater on saturday 22nd of september and sunday 23rd of september and is being presented by setu setu which stands for stage ensemble theater unit", "and what we are is a nonprofit group and we get together and we put up plays year after year", "by and for women no no usually we have we have all men and women as well", "this play this particular play is all female cast", "right", "but anybody can come and see it", "no no i didn't mean that", "they're all in english", "i just meant the presentations are women", "sometimes they're men and women most of the time they're mixed", "like the world", "they do a really thorough job as far as the script as far as rehearsals as far as wardrobe", "and usually we have like three to four show runs and then sometimes six months later or five months later we'll do a rerun and bring in do an encore", "this is the encore", "our original run was already back in april end of april", "right we had it", "right", "we already had it", "so now we are doing the encore", "so this is the encore", "yep two show run", "hi tom bob feldman belmont media center", "hello bob how are you good and you are a member of the board of selectmen i'm a member of the board of selectmen and a member of the belmont high school building committee as well", "tell me in general how the program is going", "the program is actually going very well at this point", "so our major milestone coming up on november 6th will be an important town vote where the town will decide whether or not they will choose to support the construction of this new project", "the committee has been working for the last couple of years in developing a design concept and trying to make sure that we've got a plan that meets the enrollment challenges that we have as a community that take care of the dilapidated or failing infrastructure in town", "and that meets the educational needs of our students", "that work has all come together", "and now we have a schematic design and a plan to put in front of the voters to ask for their support", "so basically this has to be approved by the townwide voters", "correct", "so at this point now the massachusetts school building authority has provided their stamp of approval", "so we have the eighty million dollars commitment from the state", "now we have to go to the voters of belmont get their support for the funding that belmont residents must provide", "and once that's done in november if it's successful we can then begin construction", "so you're a politician", "you must have a sense of how the town voters are feeling at this point", "i think there's a lot of support out there for it", "i think the town residents recognize the challenge we have of growing student enrollment", "i think they realize the challenges we have with our aging schools", "and i think there's an acknowledgement that we need to provide 21st century education experiences for our students", "so i think there's a lot of support for that", "i do think the town also is concerned about the cost and the residents have legitimately looking at you know the expense of this building and saying is that the most efficient solution for our community and is this something that the community can afford so i think we're seeing support significant support", "i think we're also seeing significant concern ultimately from my perspective as a member of the community i think it is the right path forward for belmont", "i think with one project we actually address a lot of those concerns that i mentioned", "and i think we do it in the most costeffective way that we can", "but i acknowledge it's a big number", "all right and it's you know i grew up in brookline", "i live in newton now i'm used to the building of high schools renovation of high schools", "i'm an old real estate developer", "and so i come at it in a lot of different ways but all towns are facing very similar situations sometimes a little different but in the end the generations of a certain age has to be willing to support the new high school the new grammar schools otherwise the next generation gets cheated", "and it's a toughy but that's what make america great again", "thank you and what is your name my name is anne lucier and i am a former business manager at waldorf high school but i live in belmont", "so i'm here to join the director of admissions", "i was talking to i'm not from belmont i'm working in belmont and i asked someone who's graduating belmont high school next year cause i saw waldorf high school and the thing i said i think i drive by that it was a big school", "i said what is it she said i have no idea", "so tell me about waldorf high school", "we're a small private school that many people don't know we're here", "why is that well we're on lexington street", "as are we", "and there's st luke's church and we're in the top two floors of the old st luke's school", "so we're in a classroom setting with a gym and all of that", "and waldorf education is something that's very prevalent in europe and south america", "and now increasingly so in china as well as the united states", "and it's a more holistic approach to education that not just keeping subject separate they really try and weave in a lot", "as a high school it starts at one thousand one hundred and fifty in the morning which is already an hour and twenty minutes later than belmont high", "so waldorf high school is not for any one particular kind of student it's for a different approach to high school education that's right", "would you say we have all sorts of students we do a lot of exchanges where waldorf students come to belmont from other countries and those students go to other countries for six eight weeks", "how many students attend the high school there are between sixty and seventy five so it's small", "the most we can have is twenty per grade level because of our facility", "sounds exciting i used to teach", "what did you teach i taught at bu law school london school of economics et cetera", "but i always thought like history is one of my subjects", "i always thought history is totally taught wrong in this country and it should be interchanged with sociology and archeology", "well what the students do so for example there's history every day and the first ninety minutes is call the main lesson block", "and it goes for four weeks and students do a deep dive", "so they're studying the history but it's incorporating art it's incorporating religion and then they create what's called these they're like a portfolio and they convert their notes into their own book", "and that reinforces how they learn", "so we're not big on tests and we're not big on homework", "but you're big on learning in a new way and a new format", "yes and i would tell you it's actually an old format", "it sounds great it really does", "get into the same colleges", "i read about that a hundred percent thank you", "hi i'm bob feldman belmont media", "hi i'm rich mclaughlin belmont pd", "nice to meet you sir", "how is belmont police doing these days doing great", "you are really indeed", "got a lot of good people doing a lot of good things", "that's good to hear crimes under control we do a very good job", "people are out there and about and they take their job very seriously", "we've got a great community", "it seems like and i'm not from belmont but i've been working here about a year and a half", "and it's sounds it's very expensive", "it is indeed", "but i understand what you're saying", "let me ask you a crazy question", "climate change does it effect law enforcement at all i know the firefighters say it does", "i don't know if it really has the i mean obviously when temperatures rise and things like that people get a little less patient", "every town in the world", "yes but then you know what i think overall you know i know i dunno if it really doesn't impact us", "i mean it's where we're fortunate here in new england where we have the change of seasons", "so if it gets a little warm like it is right now in a little while a couple of weeks we'll be maybe thinking and hoping back to this weather", "fall is great around here", "we want three months fall that's all", "spring also on the beginning", "but like i said it's a great great community", "thank you for talking to us", "have a great night", "thank you tell me what your name is", "my name is paul roberts", "paul roberts bob feldman", "so tell me tell me what you do at cypress security even though its sort of", "so i'm the chairman of the it advisory committee or itac and we're actually a venerable committee here in belmont", "we've been around for i think about twenty years if not more", "and we are we advise the various town committees including the selectmen the school committee and the library board of trustees all of whom appoint members to our committee but really the other committees in town and really the population as a whole we advise them on matters related to information technology", "and as everybody knows information technology is really playing a greater role in all of our lives", "so one of the things that we've done in the last couple of years is to do a series of fireside chats on topics related to technology that we think where we think there's a lot of interest or need in the community for information", "cybersecurity has been an area where there are in which we really feel like there are a lot of people who a lot of people who need good information about threats that are online protecting their personal information", "we're doing a talk this fall on fake news and how to spot fake news as well as on artificial intelligence and some of the changes that are coming in our economy and our society with machine learning and artificial intelligence", "sounds fascinating and these are broadcast where okay so a couple of things", "so these fireside chats are covered by belmont media center they're at the library usually in the community room at the library", "and our first one i believe is charlie september 27th tech talks tech talks yes", "september 27th", "the first one is september 27th is our first one", "it will be covered by belmont media center", "so you'll be able to see it on belmont cable as well as on the website", "in addition as a committee we record and stream live all of our own committee meetings", "so we're trying to sort of lead by example by making all of our full committee meetings accessible to the public online", "and you can find us if you go to youtube and type in itac or belmont itac you'll find our youtube channel", "and we have recordings of all of our meetings on that", "and we're working with the selectmen to see if there might be interest in making some of our other committees in belmont actually working with belmont media center as well making some of our committee meetings internet accessible allow people to participate remotely and also make them available online", "sounds great sounds like you're doing good stuff", "thank you we're trying to", "thank you hi i'm bob feldman belmont media", "good to see you i'm adam dash", "i'm the chair of the belmont board of selectmen", "how long have you been on the board adam i've been on the board about a year and a half or so since april of seventeen", "you're a newbie", "if you look at it i'm not the newest but i's a newish", "what is going on in the town that's of any concern to or any troubling issues or just normal well there's a lot going on but i got to say a lot of positive things going on getting our community path moving is the thing we're working on very hard now twenty five years in the making getting that rail trail", "and then also the underpass alexander avenue to connect you know the windbrook neighborhood to the rest of the town", "we're moving on that", "and we got a financial model from umass boston's collins center", "so we can try to figure out where we need to go financially in this going forward to make sure that we are being fiscally prudent and see if we can prolong the need for novarad as long as possible so i think things are going really well", "god willing a new high school will be started very soon", "that is up to the people in november", "i understand", "i hope everybody votes", "i hope to get a good turnout and a have a representative answer in the question yeah", "okay thank you for your time sir", "nice to meet you", "nice to see you have a good night", "hi i'm bob feldman belmont media center", "you are i'm harriet walker representing the habitat intergenerational program", "and you are marion miller from mass out of unhabitat", "nice to meet you question", "yeah i do have questions", "how is climate change affecting umass audubon and belmont or is it i think it is but", "we're seeing changes in the plant community", "there are some changes in the animal community", "ticks might be an example of one thing we're seeing more of that's being attributed to changes in climate", "it's affecting all the animals", "i would assume", "it's a big statement to say all but many of them will be affected by either extreme heat extreme wet extreme cold and conditions that are very changeable", "so do you do things to try to attenuate changes for the animal habitats or can you or well i'm an educator so i can't speak to the organization as a whole but we do things that are ecologically sound", "so we have solar panels that help to generate most of the electricity that we use", "we have a car charging station", "so people with electric vehicles could be viable in our parking lot and we promote ecological practices to mitigate some of the carbon that's affecting the environment", "do you do any of the things you're saying you do do you spread any of that material educationwise to", "absolutely all our education programs have some reference to climate change often it's subtle so when you come and walk our trails you will see over time the evidence of some of the changes our property manager would talk about what we're seeing in terms of changes in invasive species plants and animals that are also affecting the environment", "so yeah it's part of everything that we do", "sounds like you're doing a lot of good things", "here is another good thing", "ask harriet about some good things", "so education is a big piece of course of what we try to offer is experiential education for children teenagers adults and seniors to work together and help to look after the sanctuary", "so they're out in the woods they're helping to maintain the trails they're pruning and trimming and taking out invasive species they're doing all kinds of tasks that are part of looking after our environment", "and younger the younger you get them out the better off it is", "the younger you get them out they get to experience the interdependency", "ingrained in their in their head", "that they feel such pride and ownership in being able to help do something", "i see more and more programs like that", "it's wonderful it's heartening", "hopefully we can double and triple it every year because it's because of the wonderful carbon emissions that we still have", "builds awareness", "and i think doing that from the younger generations is crucial", "great", "thank you for your answers and your questions", "thank you", "okay so we're here with therese with sustainable belmont", "it's correct", "all right", "can you tell us a little bit about what we're doing here right now so we have a penny poll we have ten pennies for anybody who wants to vote for or to tell us what issues and what environmental issues they think sustainable belmont should be working on this year", "we have a sign up sheet for our newsletter that comes out once a month", "we have a list of activities that are coming up in the near future", "so we have a garden tour on september 8th our next meeting which is going to be september twelve is all about greening your back to school experience so it's for parents", "it's a kid friendly event for parents of school aged kids", "we'll be talking about safe routes to school", "we'll be talking about trash bashers based right here at the chenery", "we'll be talking about the program to help kids understand reducing greenhouse gas emissions", "and we'll be talking about reducing plastic waste", "we also on october 3rd that meeting will be about a roadmap to meeting our climate action plan", "and belmont has a climate action plan with targets for two thousand and fifty", "we want to bring those targets in a little bit so that it makes a little more sense and that's about it really", "and we also are advertising our belmont goals solar belmont drives electric campaigns", "and just for those who might not have stopped by your table today can you give us just a quick description of what your mission is what you guys do in town i mean i think it's pretty you know self explanatory", "so we are the environmental organization in town", "our goal is to help belmont be a sustainable environmentally friendly community", "we like to partner with other municipal organizations like the dpw and with the vision twenty one implementation committee", "and you know i'd say that's about it", "right well thank you so much", "thank you", "okay so we're here at the belmont food collaborative and farmer's market table", "i'm with anne and kim", "thanks for talking to us guys", "can we talk a little bit about some of the things that you're promoting today we've got our farmer's market that runs every thursday afternoon through the end of october we're two two to six starting after labor day", "and we have all kinds of different foods", "we've got fruits and vegetables and meats and fish and entertainment storytime for kids what else do we have there's more", "yeah we have music entertainment", "we have breads and pastries and it's just it's a very congenial atmosphere", "it's very social and a pleasant place and lots of fresh produce right great local food a nice place to run into neighbors and catch up", "and so that's a fun thing to do", "awesome", "and i went to the farmer's market couple weeks ago", "it is there's a lots of stuff going on", "lots of different vendors there", "anything else in particular that you guys are working on right now well the fungal food collaborative is a five hundred and one c3 nonprofit", "and we do a lot more than just the farmer's market", "that was kind of our first project we do a work in food assistance getting fresh produce to people in need", "some of that work we do through the food pantry making fresh produce available but we also provide benefits to the people who are on the snap program at the market so they can use their snap benefits and we match it", "so they get up to twenty a week", "so that's one thing but we also have other jobs", "opportunity for both the farmers and for the recipients so that everyone wins", "and that's been a really great opportunity at the market", "and we have education so", "we have garden you have a garden at rock meadow one small garden plot where people take turns taking care of it so a family will sign up for a week", "they'll come two or three times weed water take the produce home", "so we give them all the instructions they need and meet them there if they want to", "so it's a fun way to kind of try out the garden and see what's growing and maybe grow something they haven't grown", "well and is that something that's open to anyone in beaumont open to anyone in belmont they just go sign up for their week and then i send them instructions and then they go so it's a great fun way to get involved", "and it's hard to get in there right to get a plot there its hard to get your own plot", "so this is a good way to check it out", "maybe if you want to get on the waiting list for your own plot or some people have a garden at home that doesn't grow well and it's fun to try out someone else's garden where there's maybe more sun someone else's already planned and stuff", "so it's a great it's a fun learning opportunity", "awesome", "all right well thank you so much for talking to us", "all right", "all right so we're here at the yes for belmont table", "i'm joined with ellen", "ellen thank you so much for talking to us", "happy to", "can you talk a little bit about what you're here to talk to the residents about today absolutely", "we are talking about the belmont seven to twelve school", "this is the school that is going to be built to replace a lot of the current high school", "and it's going to be two schools in one", "so there'll be a high school wing and a middle school seven to eight wing", "okay great", "and what would a yes vote mean if people do vote yes so a yes vote means that we get to build the school", "the voters are going to be asked whether or not we want to fund the school", "and it's really important that the town desperately needs it because the school is very old and needs a serious renovation because there is tremendous overcrowding in our schools and this solution solves overcrowding throughout the whole district all six schools", "so it's a great project", "a yes vote means we build it", "we solve our problems", "great awesome", "and i'm assuming there's been lots of research", "obviously that's gone into this and lots of people who are involved with trying to get this through", "so we appreciate all the hard work there", "do you want to talk a little bit about what might happen if it doesn't go through so i mean you mentioned that there's been a lot of work", "the building committee is the group that has done a tremendous amount of work", "they've been at it for two and a half years", "we are trying to help communicate and have the conversation with voters to understand why this is so important for the town and why we need to vote for it", "if we don't pass it then we still have the problems", "you know we still have to fix the old school", "we still have to fix overcrowding", "any other way of fixing it is more expensive", "we have right now an opportunity with the state they're going to give us an eighty million state grant to build this school", "if we don't take advantage of it now that goes away because that's their rules", "and so this is really crucial if we want this eighty million if we want to make it cheaper for belmont residents we got to vote yes now", "great well thank you so much", "thanks this is fun", "okay so we're here at the belmont against racism table", "i'm here with meg thank you for talking to us", "do you want to talk a little bit about just what your organization is and what you what you guys do absolutely", "the president is coming around the corner so she can tell more but this is a group that's been around a long time", "it started in the seventies in response to some of the race rioting that was going on and the community felt they wanted a way to talk about the discussion and they decided they wanted to work locally to make sure belmont was a place where families of any race religion and any orientation to come and be welcomed in belmont", "and again there are many issues that we've taken on over the years we work very closely with the schools", "we support the metco program by providing afterschool transportation", "so students can stay after school and participate in drama or theater or sports or whatever", "we're working closely with the schools and brainstorm ideas about making sure that the schools are supported around diversity issues in the school", "we support all sorts of programming especially discussions around some nice books", "there's a group called story starters that we support that will help parents talk about race with their kids", "so we have a wide range of things and we have programming coming up in november about social justice issues or in like the new criminal justice laws", "so we have plenty of programming that across the board", "and so you have an event in november", "is there anything else you are promoting today kathryn do you want to talk about the programming the criminal justice program oh just jumping in", "oh so the program in november 15th", "so on november 15th at seven hundred and thirty at the you know unitarian church we're going to have a program on restorative justice and it will include senator will brownsburger", "it will also include district attorney marion ryan arlington police chief ryan our police chief rich mclaughlin and members of the community for restorative justice", "and we're going to talk about bringing the restorative justice model to belmont", "so we hope lots of people could attend", "it will be very interesting evening", "great thank you so much", "you're welcome thank you", "we're here with ms elizabeth warren", "she's looking lovely tonight elizabeth", "thank you so much for being here"], "name": ["snafuinfinityMeet-Belmont_082818-CL19/snafuinfinityMeet-Belmont_082818-CL19/Meet-Belmont_082818-CL19_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "snafuinfinityMeet-Belmont_082818-CL19/snafuinfinityMeet-Belmont_082818-CL19/Meet-Belmont_082818-CL19_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "snafuinfinityMeet-Belmont_082818-CL19/snafuinfinityMeet-Belmont_082818-CL19/Meet-Belmont_082818-CL19_DOT_flac_00002.flac", 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australia", "in a remarkable career he's developed analytical techniques and made discoveries that are today essentials in the field of geobiology", "along the way he's received many prestigious awards", "his distinctions include an appointment as a fellow of the royal society", "dr summons is particularly known for his investigations of biological traces in very ancient earth sediments and oil shale", "his contributions to the identification of earliest life on our own planet are now applied to the analysis of sediments on mars", "tonight dr summons explains how organic matter leaves its signature in the form of biomarkers and how that information can be decoded millions or billions of years later", "we are very honored to welcome roger summons", "thank you", "welcome sir", "thanks very much", "and i'd like to ask to start with what's geobiology what do you do geobiology is the study of how life on this planet has coevolved with the planet", "we know that earth has changed over geological time over the four and a half billion years that it's existed", "and a lot of the changes that we know took place on the surface of the earth being driven by life", "and for most of earths history that life was entirely microbial yeah", "that is growing slime", "yeah", "yeah", "microscopic organisms have dominated the planet for most of its history", "and are you saying that the geology wouldn't have developed in the same way if it had not been for biology and maybe vice versa exactly exactly", "okay all right", "one of the most profound changes that people recognize is that the earth was formed with no oxygen in the atmosphere", "yeah", "and now we have an atmosphere with twenty one oxygen and we know that oxygen was formed by the photosynthetic organisms that we can see around us but mostly from the cyanobacteria in the ocean", "they were the first they were the organisms that invented the ability to do photosynthesis yeah", "and produce oxygen at the same time", "right", "and that oxygen has determined how the way rocks have weathered", "it's determined the minerals that we can find in rocks", "so there's very definite evidence that the activities of microbes have profoundly affected the surface environment and probably the subsurface environment as well", "when we see say documentaries or books about fossils we see these things sometimes very problematic little fragments and so on and it is your field and you substantially who developed other ways to trace this early life", "you've worked on oil and coal and oil shale yeah", "and things where we don't think we see fossils", "could you please tell us about it well the fossil fuel that we're burning to power our cars and our homes is organic matter", "it's organic carbon compounds that have been formed in the past by living organisms", "all the organic matter practically all the organic matter we have on the planet is a consequence of the activity of life", "um hm", "so you look at a piece of coal and it's a piece of black stuff", "yes", "you look at black liquid yeah", "coming out of an oil well it's black stuff", "right", "but really it's individual molecules", "it's individual compounds that we can use chemistry to determine the structures of those molecules", "and the structure of those molecules are clearly related to the different organisms that have made the molecules and those organisms are doing making their living in different ways", "so the structure of a single compound can tell you an awful lot about the organism that made it and the process that organism was using to make a living whether it was photosynthesis or it was eating something else or eating somebody else", "molecules have a story to tell and that's what i've been very fortunate to be able to work on for the you know the last forty years of my career", "so it's this combination of chemistry and biology", "and i don't know what else and geology exactly all of that together", "but again i think most of us are just not aware that you could look at oil and coal and find a history like this", "and so you do this sort of chemically with looking for markers", "is that the idea of tracing we use a technique called gas chromatography combined with mass spectrometry", "and to explain that a bit more gas chromatography is a way to you can separate molecules with incredibly high resolution", "so you can separate molecules that only have very very subtle differences in chemical structure", "and the mass spectrometry part is an approach to getting a fingerprint of those molecules", "and we can compare that fingerprint with molecules that we can make in the laboratory or molecules that you can buy off the shelf from somebody", "so it's a lot of comparison", "sometimes we find molecules in rocks that we've never seen before", "and in that case we have to do a lot of chemical experiments um hm", "to determine the structure", "once we've determined the structure then we have that sort of a chain of connections that we can make to through biochemistry basically um hm", "to the organisms that made those compounds", "when the rover drills a hole in a rock or in the soil in mars you can really look at this", "you don't have to see the fragments in a rock these that's we are usually shown with fossils when we think of fossils", "yeah", "so", "the best way to think about the msl mission i think is think of it as a geologist a robotic geologist yes", "on wheels yes", "and the msl or the curiosity rover has a whole suite of tools that a geologist would normally have", "it for example has a hand lens yes", "and the hand lens produces beautiful photographs", "it's just this most spectacular instrument takes little selfies", "takes selfies and takes mosaics", "it's a brilliant brilliant camera", "yah yah", "and were there microscopic organisms on mars that hand lens would be able to see them", "i mean they would need to be a certain size before it could resolve them from the rest of the rock but it with a hand lens you could see your you know a moderately sized small fossil if they existed", "that's amazing", "well i've got a cartoon of the rover and the cartoon explains that what the primary mission is", "the primary mission is not about detecting life", "ah", "the primary mission is about determining whether life could have existed in the past at some place on mars", "we can't explore the whole of mars", "obviously", "it's very very difficult", "right right", "but there was a very detailed selection process that chose a place where they thought they knew a significant amount of the geology", "uh huh", "there's no point going to a place where you have no context yes", "because in this sort right right", "of work context is everything", "so a lot of selection went on to choose a place where they thought they would have rocks that could preserve life signatures had they had they been formed at the time right i see", "and as a consequence they chose gale crater okay", "as the landing site all right", "and within gale crater then the tasks that curiosity was charged to perform", "curiosity and of course the team of scientists that runs the mission is to evaluate the biological potential of that place to understand the geology and geochemistry and their interrelationships", "particularly to try to understand the role of water in that particular environment", "hm hm", "and because life is profoundly affected by radiation yes", "both beneficially and deleteriously", "if we get too much solar radiation it's not good", "so evaluating potential for life to exist really depends on understanding the entire environment including the radiation environment", "okay", "so that's the mission yes", "not to detect life but to see if life could have existed", "okay", "this is the another cartoon of curiosity and it's got the various instruments labeled such as mask cam kim cam marty", "these are all imaging systems", "yeah yeah", "i think there's altogether nine cameras", "so the mask cam takes big images it's stereoscopic and color images", "uh huh", "there are hazard cameras that on the wheels that the rover drivers can use to evaluate danger like that yes", "and it also shows the instruments that are inside the rover the main chemistry instruments", "there are two of them", "one of them was called sam yes", "sam for analysis on mars and that's the experiment that i was selected to work on", "okay", "and then another one called kimin which is an xray instrument that can determine the minerals that are present and the minerals that are present give you a lot of context", "so if you get the information about what minerals quartz olivine carbon eight those sorts of things it helps you evaluate the information that you're gonna get from sam", "sam collects data on soil samples on sediment that would be drilled by the drill", "sam also has the capability of looking at the gasses in the atmosphere", "the gasses in the atmosphere comprise carbon dioxide um hm", "water vapor a little bit of oxygen argon some nitrogen", "and those gases and their isotopic compositions can tell you an awful lot about the history of the atmosphere", "so the mission is not just about looking for organic molecules um hm umhm", "but evaluating the context of the samples that we're analyzing", "okay", "it's an ongoing evaluation process", "uh huh", "they're using data that's collected by the rover itself", "they're also using data imagery from satellites that are orbiting mars and taking high resolution images of the surface of the planet", "i see", "so it's a combination of information on the ground using the cameras and information from above using the satellites ah right", "to place the rover in a position where they might find an interesting rock", "and it's not no point in looking at any old rock when you're interested in those rocks that best preserve organic matter", "uh huh", "and on earth the typical place we would look would be in a shale", "that is a very fine grain sedimentary rock", "we don't find organic matter typically in a basalt ah", "or granite or an igneous rock", "i see", "and we don't find it in a sand stone because the grains are so big anything that was in there would leak out", "it's very fine muddy silty sediments that best preserve organic matter", "also laminated sediments layered sediments that have been put down over a period of time", "if the cameras can show us a layered sediment that's another indication that the sediment was deposited underwater", "yeah", "it's one of the main factors that we look for on earth to find organic matter whether we're doing it to find coal or oil or whatever", "it's no use looking in sand in the sahara desert yeah", "that's exposed to the atmosphere that wasn't deposited underwater", "we're looking for fine grain sediments deposited under water that stayed or had low concentrations of oxygen", "if you got a lot of oxygen in the environment organic matter is good food for bacteria", "so it would be consumed eaten oxidized", "it would ultimately disappear", "so we're looking for places where organic carbon and other signals are preserved", "it's called the science of taphonomy it's a long word", "taphonomy hu taphonomy is understanding all the processes that lead to the preservation of a fossil whether it's a molecule or a microbe or a bone or a human skull", "taphonomy is the science of understanding where best to look for wellpreserved material", "look at that", "and we apply the science of taphonomy to looking for the ideal places on mars where something useful i see i see", "or interesting might be preserved", "so there's an ongoing process every day", "members of the science team are looking at the images evaluating where the rover is evaluating targets to look at in the future", "and then they develop a list of priorities", "um hm", "those priorities are uploaded to curiosity and it goes through its steps doing the experiments one after the other the designs team have determined is going to optimize the data that they're going to get down", "so it's ongoing", "well when their mission first started it was twenty four hours a day", "yeah", "now they've gone down to five days a week oh i see", "twelve hours a day", "a couple of days off for the a couple of days off for curiosity yes", "and for the scientists", "yes yes i guess so", "you have written about the difficulty i think you just mentioned it also on a planet like mars", "radiation is a really serious destroyer", "so how do you get around that and first of all i think you mentioned there's not really an atmosphere like we think of atmosphere now so it would be worse", "it's an atmosphere that's very thin aha", "and earth has an atmosphere we call seven yeah one atmosphere", "mars has an atmosphere about one of earths atmosphere", "ah right yeah yeah", "so for every hundred molecules in earth's atmosphere there's one molecule on mars and that atmosphere is not dense enough to stop or to inhibit the radiation", "okay", "and consequently the surface of mars is getting a full dose of solar radiation", "right so even though mars is a little bit further away from the sun than earth yeah", "that radiation is not stopped by the atmosphere", "okay", "so that's one thing so that you would have to go internally", "so you pick a rock and you know you have to dig for this correct yes", "when you get the samples and the project is sending you the data sending this enormous team of people all this data you have the machines in your lab to do i think you said analog yeah", "kinds of experiments", "could you tell us so here's some data that looks interesting", "yes it's part of the whole the process of groundtruthing", "ground truth truthing ground truth yes", "and you know all science relies on ground truth", "you have hypothesis yes", "you do an experiment and then you query that experiment", "you try to find fault with it", "your job is to disprove yourself", "and so there are many people on the sam team doing these experiments daily not just at mit but there's a large group of people at the goddard space flight center in greenbelt maryland", "there's people in houston johnson space center all doing analog experiments and testing various aspects of the results that are coming down", "um hm", "and one of the things we do is make a mineral or a mixture of minerals that we call an analog soil for example um hm", "or an analog sediment", "we take the information that we've got from the rover about the mineral composition and we make a similar mixture in our lab uh hm", "and we run the experiment as close as we can to the way it's been run on mars", "and it's those experiments then determine or inform how the experiment might be done on mars better than it was last time", "so for any rock that we look at on mars we might look at it do six or seven experiments based on a combination of the results that came from mars but also the results that came from earth", "there's actually a sam instrument testbed instrument that it's operating under mars atmospheric conditions in a chamber at goddard space flight center", "oh", "and that's the main place where analog experiments are done i see i see", "using an instrument that's almost identical to the one that was flown and that way they can test the software they can test many many more aspects of how the experiment works and check them for truth", "yeah", "and it's a constant backwards and forwards of experiment on mars some experiments on earth redo the ones on mars redo the ones on earth and you're finessing your understanding right i understand right", "and obviously a lot of crosschecking among the scientists themselves correct yes", "so that's one of the most interesting things that i read about your work with looking at fossil life is that dna and other proteins don't preserve well and certainly would not do on mars", "yes", "then you look at lipids", "can you tell us about this and what's lipid what's lipid this picture shows some chemicals that we might find on mars okay um hm", "and on the top row um hm", "are very very simple molecules acetic acid vinegar uh hm", "there's a straight chain hydrocarbon simple hydrocarbon that you might find in gasoline for example and then the compounds with the rings called poly aromatic hydrocarbons", "and those sorts of molecules can be made by all sorts of processes not necessarily involving biology", "okay", "they are formed through biological activity but they're not diagnostic for i see", "biological activity i see", "we find those molecules for example in meteorites that land yeah", "on the earth or in interplanetary dust it's always landing on the earth", "so they're not particularly informative about the processes that made them", "mm mm", "now the second row of molecules uh hm", "are typical of the structures that are formed by biology", "and on the left we have amino acids mm mm", "and the one shown there is alanine", "so it's part of our proteins for example", "of that twenty that make up life here on earth is it's one of the twenty okay", "has another feature to it and that is a handedness", "aha", "what we call homochirality yeah", "and all the amino acids have the same configuration", "that's a very very different thing to the sort of nondescript or not that that's a bad word but less informative characteristics to the molecules on the top row aha", "the molecules on the bottom row have structural complexity that can only be imparted by biology", "okay", "and the molecule on the right large complex molecules with threedimensional qualities", "and the one i'm showing there is cholesterol", "yaha", "and we wouldn't be here without cholesterol", "yes", "cholesterol is essential to making our membranes work", "it's a very complex molecule and it's made by a complex series of reactions in our cells in biochemical or biosynthetic reactions", "and this is a lipid as opposed to the protein", "is that correct yeah the molecules on the left are amino acids because they have the chemistry makes those amino acids rather unstable over billion year timescales aha", "stable over our lifetime yes", "and we could find them in fossil humans right", "from olduvai gorge for example places where people looking for early hominids", "they are stable over that sort of timescale but they're not stable over billion year timescales which is what we're looking at in mars", "because gale crater we think was formed about three and a half billion years ago three thousand five hundred million", "that's a lot different to a human timescale yes", "but also that would be true for earth when you were looking back three billion years on earth at what you hope are fossils or something you are you emphasize the these lipids as opposed to the protein right the protein i just need to understand doesn't last so well", "protein dna sugars right okay", "nucleotides all of those sorts of molecules", "right", "they're unstable for several reasons", "there's a chemical reason ah", "that they have what we call functional groups that are easily attacked by bacteria but they're also good to eat because they have nitrogen and phosphorus", "yeah", "they have elements in them that microbes like to eat", "so if we've found an amino acid in a very old rock you'd have to be really suspicious", "why didn't someone eat it in the that have gone on", "i see", "but it's much much more difficult to eat a molecule like cholesterol", "wow", "i often use the example that when we're dead and buried and we sit in a coffin for i don't know a couple of hundred years most of our biomass will have been consumed", "the thing of us or the part of us that's the most recalcitrant type of material are our lipids", "so our cholesterol is going to last a lot longer than we do", "that is quite interesting yeah", "and so therefore that's what you're looking for we're looking for molecules that are very difficult right right", "for organisms other organisms to eat", "but they would still clearly signify biological or i don't know if prebiotic but something along those lines right they would preserve the qualities that we associate with", "okay all right all right that is quite interesting", "has that gone on for a long time and the rest of us just don't know it that you've known this about fossil residuals anywhere", "the field really took off well it was started in the forties and fifties in a little way", "yeah", "a gentleman by the name of alfred tribes identified a molecule in rock that he could relate to chlorophyll", "and of course chlorophyll we wouldn't be here without chlorophyll yes right right", "and identifying a molecule it's called a porphyrin which has got the center of a chlorophyll or that's found in the center of a chlorophyll i see", "clearly tells you that the organic matter had something to do with biology", "and then for the next fifty years people explored that idea in greater and greater detail", "and you can ultimately show that every molecule in every drop of oil on this planet was formed by life at some time in the past", "not only that the type of life on earth has evolved over time", "yeah", "we started out with mostly bacteria those bacteria or parts of them were incorporated in more complex organisms to form algae", "yeah", "those algae evolved into more complex organisms we call plants and that process of evolution can be traced in oil", "the composition of oil has also changed over geological time corresponding to the way the plankton in the ocean has changed over geological time so", "so it's a very faithful marker of the evolutionary process yeah and it's totally complimentary to the fossil record the visible fossil record yeah", "and the micro fossil record yeah", "so we have colleagues who study microscopic organisms in sediments and they can see the evolution in plankton through time yeah yeah", "and just the same as they see rocks dominated by cyanobacteria for example and later at some later time rocks with green algae and then at some later time more complex algae like diatoms yeah uh huh", "and dinoflagellates you can see those transitions in the fossil record but you can also see those transitions in the molecular record", "which is amazing yeah", "yeah that's because that's a very very accurate i guess kind of markers it's accurate", "makes sense too yes yeah", "i mean we all science is about making sense of the environment right", "around you and making sense of the phenomena we experience", "and we live in a very very complex planet and it is very complex largely to do with the presence of life", "yeah", "and the history of earth is very very different that we now know to the history of mars largely as a consequence of mars being smaller than the earth and mars having lost its water", "it may well have had as much water in the beginning as earth had but that radiation from the sun and the smallness of the planet means it lost its heat more quickly than the earth did", "and didn't develop the cycles that the earth has developed that help us preserve the water", "um hm", "the water in the atmosphere are what's blanketing us and protecting us in a large degree from solar radiation as well as the magnetic field", "mm mm", "mars probably had a magnetic field very early on but also lost that", "so it lost the ingredients that would have made the planet habitable we know that mm mm", "what we're trying to do is understand something about the very early history of mars", "uh hm uh hm", "and when it still might've had a magnetic field and might've had an atmosphere mm mm", "might've had an ocean mm mm", "and that's the sort of logic that curiosity is trying to develop", "and of course curiosity is just one theme in a long history of exploration uh hm", "of planets by largely driven by nasa but increasingly by eastern the european space agency", "right", "and now china and india", "right everybody will be in on it", "everybody's in the game but it's all about sharing knowledge", "yes and that's the other thing the sort of a real community maybe peace will break out or something big in this community because there seems to be a fair amount of sharing with", "i think science as with like arts and music", "yeah", "there ways of soft diplomacy yes exactly and that's why i but pretty effective well that's why i love being a scientist because you can interact with people in any country yes", "in the world on common ground", "and we're not concerned about our differences", "we're concerned about our common ideals and our common hopes exactly yeah", "and i think that it's one of the great joys of being scientists", "and that's why i would recommend that science as a career for young people", "well said", "back to mars for a minute", "there has been this controversy around methane", "yes", "i don't know whether it's controversy but that methane can be they're always careful with the modal can be an indicator of life but it isn't necessarily", "can you explain that to us and then in the last several weeks sometime in the last several weeks that was sort of confirmed a methane like cycle on mars", "what do you think of that and first of all though about the methane itself", "so now i'm showing a picture of sam", "okay", "and the sam instrument is really three instruments", "yeah", "it's a gas chromatograph which i explained yes", "is used to separate molecules", "it's a quadrupole mass spectrometer which is used to identify those molecules", "and it's a tuneable laser spectrometer tls is the acronym mm mm", "that can look at gases and it can measure the spectrum of gases okay", "and it's been used to largely to evaluate the atmosphere but if we heat a soil up or a crushed up rock and heat that in the system the gases that are evolved can be looked at in the tls", "okay", "and of course there had been reports of methane on mars in the past okay", "based on information from telescopes on earth as well as orbiting telescopes or spectrum a combination of telescope with a spectrometer", "so it has this equipment it can identify and presumably it was instrumental in determining this thing but what is the issue then with the methane well the issue with the methane is that it had been detected from earth but when you look through earths atmosphere there's methane yeah", "in our atmosphere yeah", "so the difference between the signal they are looking for is teeny weeny on top of a much larger signal from our own atmosphere", "so if you're using oh i see", "a telescope i see i see yes", "on earth you're hoping to see through the atmosphere but there'll be methane in that and see a little bit more signal right", "when you look at a particular place on mars", "so there were a lot of controversy about how real was the little signal when it sits on top of a much bigger noisy signal", "right", "and being able to measure it in situ yeah", "in mars atmosphere on the surface of mars was considered to be a much more reliable measurement", "and so the instrument takes in a sample of atmospheric gas freezes out the carbon dioxide and some of the other components to enrich the sample", "and ultimately they've made i think four measurements where methane is just a little bit above the background of the instrument", "so in all of this work you're looking for a signal on top of inevitable background", "i see", "what we call it yeah signal to noise ratios", "okay okay", "and the signal that they're getting from methane on mars is very tiny", "it works out to be about seven parts per billion", "so it's minuscule compared to the amount of methane ah", "that's in the air we're breathing", "okay okay", "very very small amount all right", "and not only that it was not there in the early part of the mission", "the rover got to a certain place and suddenly they made four measurements four or five measurements where they got this small amount and just as quickly as it appeared it disappeared hm", "and the appearance and the disappearance of the methane does not correlate with any other measurements that curiosity's made", "it doesn't correlate with day night", "it doesn't appear to correlate with the amount of radiation", "mm mm", "it doesn't appear to correlate with what month of the year", "there's no other measurement that curiosity's made that bears any relationship to the appearance and the disappearance of the methane", "so that bothers people", "you should if it comes and it goes mm mm", "you should be able to understand why that is mm mm", "but that was the same as the experiments when they detect that it using earth based satellites earth based telescopes sorry", "that was interference yeah", "well it appeared and disappeared", "i see yes", "and so it appears that it's coming from somewhere but in very small whiffs", "i see", "and there's no really solid understanding of what those whiffs mean", "okay", "on earth a lot of the methane comes from biological processes right", "and those processes overwhelm the formation of methane from nonbiological processes", "okay", "and so even though you can identify a small amount in mars atmosphere", "there's no way there's enough of it to get any other information that would tell us whether this is biological or nonbiological", "okay", "so it's a really interesting and intriguing scientific yes yeah", "problem but it's also an enigma", "at this point", "at this point", "right so you were not speculating on it even", "there many aspects of the behavior of materials on mars that are different to earth", "one of the things is mars surface environment is very oxidizing ah", "over its history the water has been what we call focalised to hydrogen and oxygen", "mm mm", "so h2o mm mm", "goes to h2 and o or o2 mm mm mm mm", "and the hydrogen because the gravity is lower the hydrogen can be lost to space leaving the surface enriched in oxygen", "and that oxygen is mostly tied up in minerals like sulfates and perchlorate strongly oxidizing minerals", "and strictly speaking the processes that form those minerals should also destroy the methane", "oh yeah yeah yeah so the fact that there's some methane still there tells us that they if it's true if the measurement is real that there must be some process still generating the methane and that is even more intriguing", "some people would like to think it's biology but there's no evidence for it of course everybody wants to think it's biology", "i have to let you talk to the audience here very soon but is there anything that you would speculate on about mars in terms of this project that you'd like to tell us about it's proved very very difficult to find any organic matter mm mm", "on the planet mm mm and organic matter on the earth is a biosignature mm mm", "and the failure to find organic matter on mars might be interpreted as the absence of a biosignature", "mm mm", "but again we think it's a strong radiation environment and the presence of these oxidizing materials like sulfate and perchlorate mm mm", "and oxygen itself mm mm", "this destroyed it mm mm", "so the drill can only go in a couple of centimeters mm mm", "we can't go deep enough mm mm", "that where you might find material that's been separated from these nasty processes", "right", "a lot of people want to have life under the surface of something or other you know", "yeah", "i remember thomas gold he's a scientist here speculating that the earth very deep down was full of bacterial life you know it is", "and evidently it turned out but he was laughed out of the room when he first mentioned that i think", "but he also said that fossil fuels aren't formed by biological processes", "yes all right don't go there", "so he was right about the deep biosphere", "and very wrong about a few other things", "yeah", "but in any case people want to find life out there in the worst way", "do scientists sort of are they optimistic pessimistic or just totally bewildered like it's too hard to reconstruct", "not so bewildered", "again it's taken hundreds of years for us as scientists and particularly geologists to understand and put together some history of the earth", "required all sorts of scientific inputs like the discovery of radio activity mm mm", "gave us a tool to date rocks precisely mm mm", "people used to estimate before they had real mm mm", "dates from uranium led decomposition", "it's a very long iterative process to understand the history of the earth", "mm mm", "paleontology geology geophysics", "and now you need all of it seems like", "yeah and that same series of streams of logic and knowledge are being applied to mars", "mm mm", "but what we're finding out is mars is very very different in all sorts of interesting ways", "and ultimately people will come to an understanding of those processes through this mission", "and hopefully it continues for a few more years the rover stays alive and then that", "amazing this machinery by itself is", "and it speaks in a spectacular way to the engineering skills i agree", "of all the people that work yeah", "on developing the rover itself the delivery system yeah", "the landing system", "it's just the spectacular it's a real tribute to humanity i must say absolutely", "isn't it yeah", "yeah", "and a lot of those scientists are usbased but there also a lot of them based in other countries", "there's russian scientists and there's french scientists working on this mission", "so it really is international and it really is a spectacular scientific and engineering accomplishment", "yeah", "there's one other important aspect", "and that's leadership", "the leadership of the mission has been spectacular", "and the principal scientist john grotzinger who used to be a professor at mit oh", "led that mission for the seven years the most critical seven years", "and i think his way of getting people to work together yeah", "and be critical of each other without cutting each others in a positive way yeah a productive way i should say yeah", "the whole job your whole job there is to do good work but also to prove someone else wrong and to get people to do that in a constructive way is really a remarkable achievement", "yes the hole mission is spectacular", "i have to leave it there so that you can talk to the audience", "dr summons thank you ever so much for being with us"], "name": ["snafuinfinitycontemp-science_life-on-mars-CL19/snafuinfinitycontemp-science_life-on-mars-CL19/contemp-science_life-on-mars-CL19_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "snafuinfinitycontemp-science_life-on-mars-CL19/snafuinfinitycontemp-science_life-on-mars-CL19/contemp-science_life-on-mars-CL19_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "snafuinfinitycontemp-science_life-on-mars-CL19/snafuinfinitycontemp-science_life-on-mars-CL19/contemp-science_life-on-mars-CL19_DOT_flac_00002.flac", 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-{"audio_document_id": "12_17_2018_Winooski_Mayor_s_Press_Conference.flac", "identifier": "cctv17vt-12_17_2018_Winooski_Mayor_s_Press_Conference", "text_document_id": "12_17_2018_Winooski_Mayor_s_Press_Conference.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [10415, 833, 24714, 833, 10143, 2250, 10260, 9310, 8450, 8160, 7250, 4493, 12607, 25377, 2913, 11520, 2520, 2350, 3900, 9960, 3460, 2280, 5060, 5390, 9520, 5000, 9740, 3230, 4390, 13930, 9540, 5860, 6250, 12257, 7800, 6487, 14023, 2820, 4380, 10630, 9520, 5770, 3770, 5180, 16780, 13022, 11398, 4173, 6043, 14677, 5439, 15221, 13397, 2543, 11520, 13383, 3977, 10450, 4330, 7380, 2840, 11490, 1030, 5790, 8240, 5920, 15710, 843, 3433, 1898, 2743, 16280, 950, 12870, 5870, 10313, 5104, 9613, 833, 7527, 1200, 9650, 4983, 6610, 6210, 19720, 22600, 16453, 6930, 6251, 2338, 22581, 8190, 10433, 7130, 6050, 3070, 4580, 2570, 20700, 1140, 20953, 3260, 3913, 8797, 8910, 4370, 8280, 10393, 984, 1570, 5250, 2570, 5000, 885, 11360, 1870, 2580, 2240, 4671, 2417], "label": ["it's it's not as bad as we predicted yeah there could have there's much more now had you known this at six o'clock then that might be", "yeah", "that would be pretty bad that was next for our meeting i probably just unfortunately probably not i'll be quick with comments and you guys have got to the written statement can go pretty quickly to your questions", "great", "you guys okay too so good evening and good evening to the live audience via channel seventeen news", "my name is seth leonard mayor of winooski", "and earlier today issued an announcement that i will be resigning the post of mayor winooski effective january the 28th two thousand and nineteen", "serving this community in the capacity of mayor for the last four years has been the greatest privilege and honor that i've had in my life", "when you come into an office like this it it it's never about your vision and what you're there to accomplish", "it's your job to turn back towards the community understand what it is that they value the things that they want to see done in their community", "and it's your job to then take that and create a workable work plan right a vision that we can actually execute", "i am extremely extremely proud of the work we've accomplished in the last four years as a mayor", "and two years before that as city counselor when i came to the office i talked a lot about the idea that whinooski really needed a plan a solid path to move forward and to our future", "and some of the key elements around that have been about investment infrastructure making sure we're taking really good care of the thing where we're most visibly responsible for steering which is this the taxpayer's resources right those tax dollars and investing them in a way that people believed in and investing them in a way that they saw a vision coming into fruition into reality", "and i'm really proud of where we stand here today", "and we've got a couple big projects right outlaid are right here for folks that i think are wonderful demonstrations of how we've tried to take that vision and turn it into action", "that's what the last especially year been about is", "we've spent a lot of time developing a master plan", "we spent a lot of time talking about whether our community needs or wants a pool", "we've spent a lot of time talking about where we want our critical investments to be in go and what our community's going to look like into the future and we believe this year we're putting forward a budget", "that's going to be very representative of that vision", "and i'm proud for this to be my last action", "and the last thing that i look forward to running through is in terms of a community conversation", "so this year's budget is going to have a couple of components that i think you're really gonna you", "you've probably followed for quite some time starting with myers memorial pool right the pools been nonoperational for about three years now", "and in the course of that time it's become apparent that it's a really important community asset", "not just from an activity standpoint but from a community building standpoint for the ability to for our community members to build that safe healthy connected community", "we also moving forward with our main street reconstruction", "these are parts of the budget right we're going to service the debt on these two big projects", "this includes over over twenty million in investment to do a headtotoe redo of main street all new infrastructure new street scape to again provide another opportunity for us to have a vibrant gateway into our city", "via main street and an area that fulfills that vision that people of whinooski have said over and over again we want to be this walkable vibrant destination community", "and we're really proud of this project and the impact we know it's going to have in the city's future", "in addition to that we're we'll be rolling out details very soon in regards to a new parking structure in the downtown", "and this is our opportunity to shore up the vibrancy down there right we've done a lot to create a business community and district in that area that i think we can all be really proud of whinooski", "we you know we went under with this the state's largest redevelopment project in its history right and the reconstruction of our downtown", "and now we're trying to be stewards to get that to the final destination of sustainability and we're well on our way", "and the addition of this parking garage and we believe is going to be a wonderful asset for that future additionally it's going to come at no cost to the taxpayers from a tax standpoint right we're going to cash flow the revenues from the garage towards the debt of it", "so there'll be a net neutral impact to the taxpayers", "they won't see a hike in their taxes as a result of that garage being constructed", "additionally another big focus in an area that we've tried to work very hard on is coming up with a capital improvement plan that not doesn't focus just on gateway districts but also in our neighborhoods", "and this year we'll be putting forward a a proposal to also bond for the reconstruction of hickock street which is a residential neighborhood", "a lot of folks know in the in the heart of one of our most densely populated residential areas", "so with that we again will be cashflow out of the capital budget", "so it comes at no impact to the taxpayers from a net new tech standpoint", "so we're looking with the main street project with the with the we're also gonna be proposing to taxpayers and voters that they allow us to do a one sales tax on rooms meals alcohol in general sales", "we believe that's an opportunity for us to share the expense of the main street reconstruction project in specifically with the businesses and also with the folks who come into our community and spend dollars every day", "so it's a very typical tax in our area right we're surrounded burlington south burlington culture essex south burlington other communities in our area also have this tax", "and we think it's time for whinooski to look at the same to reinvest that in infrastructure", "so you know again this has never been about me and this work's never been about me", "it's been about this community and i have a deep love and passion for our community it's our job as a government not to create the community that we want to see it's our job to create what is essentially a canvas for the community to be able to pay it on", "and i am so immensely proud of the work we've done to do that and there's no better sense", "and stepping away from a position like this than to have extreme confidence in the leadership that you're leaving behind and i can't say enough about the people the humans that work here in the city hall and execute that vision every day because but for them none of that work gets done", "and i specifically want to call out our city manager jesse baker who in just two short years has done a tremendous job of leading our staff bringing a lot of these projects that were long in the thought process to fruition", "and we're on the precipice now", "we've gotten to the point where we took the community's feedback and vision we've designed these projects we've put the finances together and we're offering for our budget to execute that vision that future", "and i hope in some way that that maybe makes the job for the next person that steps into this role as mayor of winooski a little easier they've got some big things that they'll be already working through", "so there won't be a lot of pressure to come up with a lot of big ideas right off the bat", "and i just want to acknowledge that we have a very deep and talented bench in our city in terms of engaged intelligent people who have leadership qualities", "and i know we're going to have some wonderful people step up maybe end up with multiple people step up", "so i'm leaving at an exciting time and we are at an extremely exciting place as a community", "we don't look like any other community in vermont", "we are the most diverse most denselypopulated while the rest of vermont is getting older we're getting younger and we have the most diverse demographics in the state", "and it's beautiful", "it creates an unbelievable fabric community fabric here that's unlike anywhere else", "and i'm so so proud to have had the opportunity to for the last six years to serve the people whinooski at an elected capacity", "and i can't be more grateful to all of our residents because they make all this happen", "they've given us this opportunity to lead and i hope that they feel like we've we've done well with that vision and moved the community forward and the way the most represents what they want to see and a place that they enjoy living and are proud of", "cause i sure am", "and so with that i'll take any questions you guys may have", "i forgot to turn on my microphone", "i couldn't do that again because yeah", "just curiosity it says that you took a the job of the community director of community development mm hmm and were counseling finance usca what what exact average i'm assuming just recently you had to grapple with this decision", "yeah", "so i accepted the position last weekend the charter and the transition items we needed to work through too took us a little time", "we wanted to ensure that we could clearly explain to a counselor should they choose to run for office or for others", "what progression did it happen from a process standpoint so that's why we've delayed it by a few days to try to make sure that we had answers to all those questions we knew it would come up", "and that's a full time position obviously i'm sorry the that's a full time yes yeah", "so i'm currently the housing program director at usca rural development so yeah the mayor stipend in whinooski is about for one thousand four hundred a year", "so", "how do you feel your time as whinooski mayor will stay with you in your career moving forward hmm", "that's a great question", "well i am a practitioner in my professional career and a lot of cases i look i'm looking from the lens as a funder", "that's looking at how to help a community be successful", "it's very beneficial to see that work from the community's eyes and standpoint in winooski", "we have to engage in a lot of partners to make all this happen right there's no project that we do by ourselves", "we're very reliant on other funding streams and sources state federal local regional partnerships to make that work so certainly you know that's something that i hope i've brought to this seat from a professional capacity standpoint and you know some knowledge base for the city to its benefit", "and then from my own it's been a tremendous experience to see that work through those eye that lens you know a great example right now is we're working through affordable housing right we have a housing commission and we're looking at potential updates to zoning that could that we think are going to better reflect the mix of housing we want to see in the community", "and that's something i do quite frankly in my professional life too so it's it's it's hard for those not to intersect that times which is frankly part of the reason why it makes sense right now to to step down just from a professional standpoint not being able to do both", "yeah that that leads to my question because you were saying that you're very proud of what you have accomplished in this time", "you feel that there are a lot of things coming up you feel like this is a good transitional period for you", "do you wish it could have kind of been better yeah", "months or things like that so there's no perfect time right i actually think it's a fantastic time because what my role in job coming in to me was to listen to the community to try to craft a vision that included deliverables right projects things that helped achieve that vision and a result in the community that people wanted to see", "we've done that work right the taxpayers still have to vote right they have to vote yes on these items if they want us to actually execute them", "so if they agree that this is the correct division that this is the right vision and these are the right steps towards it in the proposed total six increase is something that everybody can get behind", "then that closes that closes the chapter on these conversations the projects then go forward and look in a policy seat", "the city doesn't need me to oversee these projects right that's that's the city manager and the administration's job", "they'll make sure that they get executed", "it's our job to come up with what we think is a sustainable policy path and finance package", "that's reasonable to the taxpayers", "honestly for me do you think that professionally basically this movements you know where are you i guess in this stage in your career and your life where you want to be because this was this was your fourth year right mm hmm so that's kind of my question is to really the root reason of why you're here", "yeah sure", "so i have a very honest question i ask myself anytime there was an opportunity from either a civic or professional direction and it's how can i how can i use my talents my abilities to make as much of a difference in as many lives as possible and impact my community in the best way possible", "and to me right now this has been a fantastic opportunity", "i'm really proud of the work that we've done for me right now", "this is an opportunity to work with resources that impact the entire state of vermont in a way that is dramatic", "and it's to me affordable housing is the foundation of a healthy community right so i i believe very strongly in that work", "it's been my life's passion something i've done for a decade", "and in the course of getting this opportunity i can't imagine a better chance that could be available to me right now to make that difference", "so i measure it and the difference that i can make and it's not to downplay the role here and what we've been able to achieve but that's the decision i arrived at", "thank you", "yeah thank you guys", "hey in seriousness too if i really have appreciated working with all the media in vermont you know you guys do a great job", "thanks for thanks for all your work", "keep people informed and engaged anything from you sir", "not allowed to", "yeah well thanks again to everybody at channel seventeen too you guys go above and beyond to ensure we have public access to all these meetings and you've been a tremendous partner", "and the great part right", "is for the next month and a half i'm going to be talking about this budget", "so i'm not gone yet", "so you'll hear lots more from me there and especially thank you guys appreciate it", "thank you"], "name": 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if i could address that they previously asked the council to award a bid for removal of some trees at the golf course", "the bidder that the city had attempted to award the contract to was unable to obtain good bond sufficient credibility for the city", "and so i'm asking the council now to go back to the list of bidders we would go to the second lowest bidder and appreciate the council's consideration in this special meeting because this is somewhat time sensitive or maybe hard to imagine today the frost will eventually go out of the ground", "and that they want to be able to course while the frost is still in the ground so it minimizes the potential for any damage for moving the trucks across the fairways or grounds", "are there any questions yes", "mr kosher", "thank you", "so the one that was going to receive this was the ria wickes is that who it is that's who it is yes yeah", "and their bid is nearly double what the other bid was", "and we're still comfortable going with that here it is under our original estimates but it is again the first one was a very good price", "they're not able to meet the terms and conditions with the package", "and so we go on to the next highest bidder correct", "which is under our original estimate but higher than what we were going to go with", "do we have any other questions i'll entertain a motion", "second second", "all those in favor", "aye", "okay is there anything else coming for health and recreation if not entertain a motion to adjourn here there's nothing else okay", "i need a second", "i'll second", "all those in favor aye", "we're adjourned", "all right i'm going to call order the special city council meeting for this evening if the clerk would call the role", "mr mutabaron excused", "mr ferrari present", "mr riggy here", "ms porterfield here", "miss parrasso present", "mr kosher here", "ms king present", "and if the clerk would also read the notice of the meeting and proof of service", "notice of meeting dating friday february 27th to the council", "an emergency city council meeting has been requested for monday march 2nd to accept the bid and award the contract for golf course tree removal", "dno tree service who was awarded the contract on january 26th has been unable to secure a performance bond for the contract", "the awarding of a new contract is time sensitive for the listed reasons", "the time period contractors must honor their pricing is expiring", "number two the contractor needs to be ready to go soon as possible", "a new resolution will be introduced at monday night's committee meeting and needs to be acted upon at a special council meeting on the same night", "chuck thorn city clerk", "proof of service comes from email tracking", "recipient ed kosher delivered two hundred and twenty seven two thousand and fifteen at one thousand one hundred and fourteen am", "john ferrari delivered two hundred and twenty seven fifteen one thousand one hundred and fourteen am", "john mutabaron delivered two hundred and twenty seven fifteen one thousand one hundred and fourteen am", "lisa parrasso delivered two hundred and twenty seven two thousand and fifteen one thousand one hundred and fourteen am", "marion porterfield delivered two hundred and twenty seven fifteen one thousand one hundred and fourteen am", "peggy king delivered two hundred and twenty seven fifteen one thousand one hundred and fourteen am", "vincent riggy delivered two hundred and twenty seven two thousand and fifteen one thousand one hundred and fourteen am", "okay", "so at this point i would entertain a motion to approve the resolution to award the bid and contract for the golf course tree removal to wickes arborists", "mr kosher smooths it ms porterfield seconds it", "any discussion if not all in favor signify by saying aye", "aye opposed okay motion is carried", "so there's nothing else to come before the special city council meeting i'll entertain a motion to adjourn", "i'll make the motion", "okay mr kosher second by ms porterfield all in favor aye", "all right we are adjourned", "the next item on the agenda i did not put in a committee", "mr kosher and i've had some conversation about reinstituting the intergovernmental relations committee", "this is a committee that still exists", "it was active for many years", "it went inactive a number of years ago", "and now with i think everything going on in terms of the governor's expectations that we're going to be looking at consolidation and all of that mr kosher thought it would be appropriate to maybe get it really active again", "so mr kosher do you want to speak to this yeah if i can again i think it's a very important committee again as ms king spoke", "with all the incentives that are out there and regulations regarding the governor's budget and the tax stamp and so on and with my previous experience as a county legislator and sharing the shared services committee with schenectady county i just think it's a very important committee that we reestablish and bring it back to light", "because there is so many great things happening here in the city and the county", "and i would just like to make sure that we as a city council have a seat at that table and we can continue to work with the county local businesses including the school districts and municipal housing authority as well which is another entity that we want to make sure we bring into this", "so i appreciate the presence of concern and i just hope that we can move on with this committee forward", "thoughts comments ms porterfield does it make sense i know that it was a standing committee at least in our city code", "does it make sense to make it part of the existing government ops committee that's certainly a possibility but i guess my thinking is more calling it intergovernmental really to me addresses very specifically what we're trying to do here", "so i think my own feeling is i think i would like to see it reactivated", "i understand that about the name but what i'm saying is could we make it government slash intergovernmental is it so different in terms of the government operations that it doesn't make sense to have it all one is it that different that's really basically the question i'm asking", "other thoughts on this if i may the government operations are really concerning the city services for the most part", "so i understand what you're saying but i just think this is a very important committee that it's a standalone committee there's just so many opportunities that we have out there that we need to work on and again i just think it's something that we really have to have a separate committee for", "and i'm just hoping that we can move it forward and continue to work with the county and the school districts and other agencies through this committee", "other thoughts yeah", "had you proposed committee members for the committee not at this point but we will be assuming we do reactivate it then we would definitely look at that", "so if there's no opposition then as i said i would like to reactivate it and we'll kind of see where we go with it and", "mr mccarthy it's never been abolished it's still on the books right no right yes it's on the books it just hasn't been active", "yeah okay", "well in that case then i recommend we reactivate it", "so and i know several of us attended the meeting that the county held i know mr hughes is here and mr fullman is here to talk a little bit about that", "if we can we can have them both come up", "if you don't mind", "again rory fullman is the county legislator and our fellow legislator here with the city gary hughes", "rory is the chair of the shared services and in government cooperation with schenectady county", "and gary of course is the county legislator representing district two", "so again as ms king had said there was a few of us that went to the forum that was held by the county", "but i just think it's such an important topic that the few of us that were not able to make it i would just like to give them a very brief overview maybe talk about the timeline and where we go from there", "so again mr fullman or mr hughes", "well thank you councilman kosher and it's always in pleasure to meet with the city council", "we won't take much of your time tonight but as prologue we're all aware that there is increasing pressure on municipalities to reduce their operating costs by finding ways to share services by finding ways to consolidate", "i think both the city and schenectady county have been very good partners for a number of years", "kosher and i have worked on a few things we have with other members of the council as well", "the impetus this year is some changes in the governor's proposed budget in the way that the property tax rebate would be administered and requiring communities to reach certain thresholds in terms of savings", "i believe we're both in very good shape in that area i know the county is and i believe the city is as well but there are opportunities out there that we can and should explore", "legislator fullman resides in scotia represents district three which is scotia glenville and niskayuna and chairs the county's intergovernmental cooperation committee", "we as really the only countywide municipality are in a good position to assist other municipalities when we can to coordinate to facilitate to take part in", "we have engaged in shared services arrangements that have saved the county money", "and in some instances we have engaged in services where other municipalities save money and the county has held expenditure neutral and we're certainly open to any and all of those sorts of relationships", "and we're really just here at chair kosher's request tonight to start a dialogue", "with that i'd like to introduce my friend and colleague from scotia rory fullman", "thank you gary", "thank you too council for having me thank you and gary for initiating me coming down", "so i chair the county level committee on intergovernmental cooperation just as gary had mentioned", "the city and the county have a long history of many successes with shared services whether it's the sales tax agreement the salt shed different services being able to be traded back and forth and we've already had a proven track record of saving money", "with the governor's initiatives we are all well positioned for the upcoming june 1st deadline of having a one proof of a shared services plan on your total budget i believe for you folks that's going to be about three hundred and thirteen thousand or three hundred and thirty thousand proving in years seventeen eighteen and nineteen how you're going to take one off your budget through shared services", "now obviously the big thing over the past year has been ucc which has been a tremendous success", "schenectady alone is saving two hundred and forty nine thousand for the year", "you'll be able to cap that every year under the governor's tax plans", "so again the county and the city are positioned", "and so really what we're talking about is just looking forward", "prior to the ucc coming into formation which really the talk started six eight you talk to some people up to fifteen years ago that those talks were started", "so what's next is the big question", "obviously it took a very long time to get the ucc up and running it is now so it's time to look again and to look forward into how we can continue to share services", "the county itself wasn't a dispatcher", "we weren't really in the business of having a dispatch center but guess what it's revenue neutral for us", "it helps every single municipality that came in", "so it just makes sense to really honestly look at things", "we had our meeting on the 17th we're having another meeting coming up on the 10th march 10th at one thousand am for supervisors and or designee to really come and first decide at what level of the plan are we gonna go in together for june 1st which has to be certified by the ceo and the cfy of each municipality", "and that's coming up by june 1st", "and i believe somewhere around may 15th we'll need to know from the city from the towns from the villages what extent we will be coming together for a joint plan", "but if not that's okay too because again the second purpose of this meeting is looking forward again what can we do next to share these services obviously between group purchasing or looking at public works or whatever we're doing how can we save how can we go forward in the future and work together so again i appreciate everybody having me derek thanks for having me ed thanks for having me", "my phone is always open anybody has an idea or a comment or wants to talk to me please give me a call thank you", "any questions or comments and i think ms king another important thing that came out of the meeting that we had was to engage the public as well", "and perhaps that's something we can work on with the mayor in the future is to have some public meetings regarding shared services and cooperation to get some input from our neighbors from our communities", "because again it's not just the folks sitting at this table that really have the good ideas sometimes it's the folks that are in the neighborhoods that really can lead us in the right direction on the project in particular savings", "so again working together i think it's an important piece as well", "and the ucc is united communications center central dispatch for those of you who are trying to figure out what ucc is", "and again that was long time coming", "any other questions of the gentleman and again thank you very very much for coming", "we appreciate it and we look forward to our continued working relationship with the county", "all right thank you appreciate it thanks all right", "thank you okay", "all right i will now call city development and planning to order", "we have a number of ceremonial resolutions", "the first is for the ancient order of hibernians", "someone propose that okay move by ms porterfield", "second by mr ferrari all in favor aye aye", "okay the second one is the ceremonial resolution for the persian film festival", "yeah my name's not on the agenda but okay i was wondering yeah the film fest's goal is to mark the spring equinox and persian new year", "and it will run on friday march 20th 21st and 22nd screen over twenty persian films in all genres", "and i think this is iranians as well as other persians speaking of community afghan several things i can't pronounce", "india pakistan", "but i think that this is a really wonderful effort in light of what a diverse community that we live in", "and we saw that at our last council meeting", "i just think recognizing the effort for all of us together a local man who teaches at sianna just think it would be nice to heighten awareness of his efforts and maybe bring additional people to the film festival", "so i want to entertain a motion to approve this okay ms porterfield second by mr ferrari all in favor", "aye", "and the third ceremonial resolution is for jennifer lawrence the northeast parent and child", "well it seems like we're having youth build program here every week and every month but it's a great honor", "i just found out recently that jennifer lawrence was is our youth build director of the year throughout the entire united states", "there was over two hundred and fifty applicants that applied and jennifer won the nationwide recognition as executive director of the year for youth build", "so i think it's certainly a wonderful honor and it's always good to have her back with her students and staff", "so we expect a lot of folks here for that", "and i appreciate the support from the council on that resolution", "okay", "move it second all in favor aye", "and women's history month ms porterfield", "well as we all know it's march it's women's history month so i just thought it was important that we recognize that and have a ceremonial resolution for that", "so i'll take care of getting the information putting that together", "okay very good", "you want to move that mr ferrari second by ms porterfield all in favor aye okay", "and our vote for permit for bel cibo bistro", "good evening", "you see in your packet it's a typical signed revokable permit for bel cibo bistro", "it's looking to operate at ninety six j street which is across the street on the corner of j n liberty", "it's a restaurant that's relocating from j street looking to put a sign on the existing overhang as shown in the renderings", "i really have no issues with it", "questions move it okay", "second all in favor", "aye that was easy thank you", "there you go", "any further discussion on the brandywine and state street project and zoning changes we had the public hearing we had two people speak in favor", "i had another gentleman come up who owns property right in that area come up to me after the meeting and say he's very enthusiastic about it", "so i think this is probably good to go", "all right", "so anyway i'll entertain a motion to approve that", "okay second all in favor", "aye okay", "and last is one hundred and twenty six robinson street but i see that we're going to be holding that for executive session", "so at this point i'll entertain a motion to recess city development and planning", "mr ferrari second by ms porterfield all in favor", "aye aye", "call to order public service and utilities", "we're gonna call mr wallen up about the discussion about the possible closing of a pedestrian tunnel", "thank you mr chairman if i could address that", "there's a tunnel that runs under ivy that goes from last street over into grout park", "the tunnel is owned by the state of new york", "the agreement is it's maintained by the city of schenectady", "there's been a number of complaints received where it may be fostering criminal activity undesirable people moving back and forth from one side of eight hundred and ninety to the other", "we've had several requests to actually close it", "the tunnel now is not in the best of shape can become subject to ongoing vandalism where there's been lights there in the entrance ways", "and so dot had requested that if we were going to close it that we have a public hearing and just get people's input on it", "internally the staff is making the recommendation we probably should close it", "police department's perspective and just our inability to keep up the ongoing maintenance and utilization of it over time has dropped dramatically", "people just aren't going back and forth", "when grout park was in a fact a middle school city school district probably more traffic there that no longer exists and so asking the council to consider holding a public hearing to just allow people to comment one way or the other if they want to have it open then we review that or if they want to close it we close it in some way that would be acceptable to dot", "any questions i just think having a public hearing is a really good way to make people aware that we're talking about this and get their input", "that's been a problem for years that's why i think that building got blown down in grout park", "the vandals exited through that tunnel it's been a problem for a long time", "you have any questions so we just need a motion to call for a public hearing okay i move it", "second all in favor aye aye and next we are going to call mr wallen forward about the bid and contract for the city hall boiler replacement to campetel plumbing and heating", "hello as you may or may not be aware the boilers at city hall are outdated and in a state of disrepair", "we've had a consultant come evaluate the boilers", "we've had some mechanical contractors come and repair the boilers however from all accounts and purposes they are on their last legs", "we have had the boilers checked for asbestos we do have a little bit but we'll be addressing that", "we did put out a spec to have the boilers replaced and it was awarded to campetel plumbing", "we believe that the bid is in good standing and that we would like to move forward with this as soon as possible", "any questions i'd like to entertain a motion to move this", "i'll second all in favor aye aye", "thank you thank you", "is there anything else that needs to come before public service and utilities i'd like to entertain a motion to close", "to move", "second all in favor aye", "hi i will call to order government operations", "first bid our favorite topic the abandoned extended parking", "i said a couple of scenarios to mr falletiso this week one of which was what if we change to read if the car is impeding entry or egress that would be decided by the chief of police that the car could be removed or hardship but mr falletiso didn't like the word hardship he wanted more of a definition of hardship", "so i'll turn to my colleagues in the next couple of weeks to see if we can get that nailed down", "my second suggestion was still with the entry or egress but then or if a resident didn't live within two hundred feet of the vehicle because what i thought in this case the owner of the car didn't reside within two hundred feet of the vehicle", "so that somebody that still park on the street for forty eight hours legally without any issue it would address the issue that mr riggy brought up of garages parking their cars that had been fixed and waiting for the owners to pick them up on residential streets and it hindering other people from parking there", "but it would still allow people who live there to park for more than forty eight hours", "so mr falletiso is looking into that he wasn't sure if that was something we could do because it would be kind of similar to what albany did with the residential parking thing but really quite different", "but some of the same legal like if you reside in this neighborhood kind of thing", "so still working on it not willing to give up on it", "we have four council members that want to see a change at least and maybe more support than that if we get to a place of legal good standing and a good solution for all with it being trackable and all of that so we're still working on it stay tuned i'm happy to receive any input from anyone else on this as we go forward", "but i still think that the way it's written is just not necessarily a good thing for the residents in the city", "so unless there's any questions or comments on that we'll just move along excellent", "i also brought up with mr falletiso d the issue of people parking in the driveway", "not sure there's anything legally that they can change with that because it's a private property", "which is kind of crazy well i don't understand that if we've written into the code the ninety six hours how can we not change the code we have it it's our code", "i think it was a matter of who gets to tow the car", "well now the way it's currently written in d is after ninety six hours you can do something", "why couldn't we just change the timeframe it doesn't say we can never do anything", "it says after ninety six hours the person could do something", "so i'm not sure why", "why don't you give me a call on that tomorrow and we'll talk about it if there's something that i'm missing that it looks like we can do something with we'll definitely go in that direction and from my review of it if somebody's parking if they abandon the car on somebody else's property and it meets the legal definition of an abandoned vehicle that's actually a misdemeanor", "so in those cases the police would be obligated to go there and move the vehicle because we have the obligation as a municipality to remove abandoned vehicles", "but in general if you just and you park in your neighbor's driveway not a nice thing to do really may not give rise to the criminal activity where our police department would get involved and pay for the cost of the tow instead of the homeowner doing it themselves", "well i think we should take a look at it", "because d clearly says after ninety six hours you can do something", "so my recommendation is that being a lot fewer hours", "so definitely i'd like to talk more about that", "because it doesn't make sense if you can just park in somebody's driveway and say hey do something it just doesn't make sense", "but doesn't someone always have the option to have them towed yeah absolutely", "on private property yes", "yes", "because it's on private property right right", "our correspondence", "okay", "okay", "and next up housing standard review board", "all right there was an email sent around with proposed changes as discussed in prior council meetings", "so everyone had a chance to review that entertain questions or comments", "it does include the change that we had proposed of having a multiunit property owner on there and outlines the council as it would function for our discussion", "yes", "well i just got this this afternoon with the changes so i don't know if there's just a couple of other things i think we really to add in there if we can as regarding the membership", "and i know we understand that but it must be a city residence that's not in there", "and i know the mayor always insists that we appoint folks who live in the city but i think that whoever we're appointing must be a resident of city of schenectady", "and also down where it says chairman two things i saw chairman can we limit the chairship to two years there should be some limit to how long an individual can sit as a chair of a committee at mha it's two years here as council presidents two years", "what about our speaks indistinctly committees do we have limits on those well that's what i don't know", "that's why we're in discussion here that's what i was just asking", "well the term of office limit is two years", "so if you have to cycle out and be reappointed then you would have to reappoint a chair right i mean does that cover it or i mean we can certainly add that line", "that's not going to be well is there a problem with somebody being a chair if they're being appointed and then reappointed as the chair by the group again i'm just bringing it up as a suggestion", "as the chair of the bza for many years i don't know if that's good or bad just because if someone's doing a job that everybody's appreciating why wouldn't you reappoint someone that whose leadership works exactly", "we've done it here at the city council though", "mha board limits them to two years everywhere it's just a change of leadership a change of direction", "but peggy's on her second two year term", "two year term that's right no no she's not", "no because i filled denise's oh but the same chair can be reappointed right yeah we don't have anything written to the effect of it's going to change every two years it's just that i had an understanding", "you don't have to that's all right", "i will entertain other people's comments but i also agree with mr ferrari if there's leadership in place that's working and building consensus i don't see why that shouldn't continue", "i'm fine with that", "i also don't think that we should apply something to one committee that doesn't apply to all committees", "so if that's the case we would need to take a look at all the committees and what the length of the chair is", "i'm all right with that yeah", "and i would think like i think you mentioned earlier if a person is on there for a two year term has to be reappointed then i would think yes you also would have to that would be the opportunity to make a change in leadership if one was needed", "other comments questions i might ask that you give me the authority to designate a chair for the first appointment", "the environmental or the energy advisory board reappointed that and then people were questioning they're supposed to elect their chair on their own or who's going to be the chair and so that board is kind of languished so that they're not looking to but put some organizational structure and responsibility as we're looking to ramp it up and get it started initially", "which makes sense because if you have people that don't know one another how do you decide who chairs it yes ms porterfield", "so this is really a question so are you just asking when the board initially get started right just should the council move ahead with this we're gonna discuss the names we'll make the appointment i'll designate somebody as the chair for that initial one year or two year term whatever the council want it and then it would revert back to the prerogative of the board", "yeah i'm comfortable with that but i would like it at a year because after a year the board will know each other enough and if they feel there's a change in leadership it should be their prerogative to be able to change it before a two year term anyone else my only other comment and i'll pass this on is when we're doing things like this to make sure it's gender neutral", "so chair instead of chairman and he slash she that kind of thing", "yeah this is an old committee", "yes other questions or comments now the next step is to call for a public hearing on this", "so yes", "if i may in respect to john mutabaron councilor mutabaron who's not here this evening and again i just received this myself", "is there any way we can hold this for two more weeks just so we can review this and again because he might have some changes that he might want to include or take out of this and then we'd have to have another public hearing or would we not have to have another public hearing because the public hearing is on what we're including in this document as it is correct right but that would be for monday nights two weeks after that", "and then we can still make changes", "so that gives us another based on the comments that you have received at the public hearing you might change one thing or the other maybe you make the terms longer", "maybe you make them shorter", "as long as councilor mutabaron will be able to insert whatever comments that he wanted and concerns that he had regarding this legislation i think it'll be fine", "he can speak at the public hearing", "yes ms porterfield", "six hundred and eighty three for terms of office where it talks about the members currently serving on the municipal residence board multiple residence board what is that that's this board the old title which to reconstitute", "so then should that be changed to the name it's going to be right", "it wouldn't really have any effect either way because when this was written there was another board the multiple residence board that already was existing so it's just handling the fact that there are people who are on that board who are then going to be coming on to this one because once it's been dormant that clause wouldn't have any effect", "we could take it out if you'd like to", "we should take it out", "yeah if it doesn't have any effect it doesn't need to be there", "other questions in terms of membership it states who but will any city staff be part of this board i'm not looking to appoint any city staff", "they would function in an advisory role", "okay thank you", "more questions comments the council had a strong feeling so the way i first consider okay so if i could have a motion to call for a public hearing thank you a second all in favor aye", "aye", "okay great", "one more thing that's not on the agenda that i bring to the committee and that is wednesday night the board of zoning appeals will meet and there are a couple of advertising companies that are seeking a variance", "they are putting up new billboards and wish to not adhere by the zoning requirement of removing two existing billboards before they put up the one billboard", "in this particular case there are electronic billboards", "and i'm bringing this to the council's awareness because i believe that there are other billboard companies also putting up billboards that are adhering to the zoning regulations of removing two", "and after discussion or questions if we agree as a council i would like to consider that we draft a memo to the board of zoning appeals asking them to please stand by our zoning in that if these companies want to put up a billboard that they remove two others", "so open for questions and comments on that", "so prior to the public hearing you want us to there at this hearing on wednesday you want us to draft a recommendation that they stick by that before we even hear what they have to say right i feel like my thing is we have other companies coming in they're adhering to these rules", "and i think it's a crucial time in our city of growth that we need to be cognizant of what our city looks like especially if we have a lot of electronic billboards going up and we have the zoning changes or these zoning requirements in effect for a reason and i feel strongly that we don't want the city covered in billboards especially with the electronic ones going up", "yes ms porterfield", "well i think that there's a reason that we have variances and we allow people to come and make their case so i personally would say we should hear what their case is and what their reasoning is before we would make that recommendation", "that would be my preference to hear what people have to say as opposed to because we're offering the opportunity to say here if you need a variance come and ask us for it", "so they're doing that", "but i think if as a council we say no before they even make their case it just doesn't seem like it's very fair to make that decision before they made their case", "maybe there are other people that have not asked for them because they don't need that", "this group feels like they need it for whatever the reason is", "and certainly i'd like to be able to hear those reasons", "fair point mr riggy but can the cva vote on that that night to allow the variance absolutely", "so then maybe we should make a recommendation that if they could hold it for two weeks until we get to see what may be presented that night because otherwise it could be voted on that night so we have no call in it whatsoever", "another great suggestion", "so if they could hold it for two weeks instead of granting it that night to hear from us", "or whatever i don't know what their it's a once a month they meet", "yes they would hold it for a month", "okay so they could hold it for a cycle then", "that way we could weigh in that way otherwise we can't weigh in", "the deed'll be done right right and point being also that and i respect ms porterfield's point but anyone can go for a variance right anybody can go for a variance so you have some other people that are putting up billboards that may not think they'd get the variance but they're taking a chance on it so but good point", "other questions or comments yes ms king another thought too is whether to do a letter just saying that unless it's a really unusual request or special situation that they so in other words we're not saying don't award it but just make sure if you're awarding it it's a really special reason or unique need or something to that effect", "i think doing something like that just kind of sends a message to the board and i think that we should just wait to hear because that kind of whether it's intention whatever the letter says the fact that it comes from the council it kind of sends a message", "i think we should just be hands off until we hear whatever it is that they're asking for", "go to the meeting make your comments at the meeting", "i try to go to most of them", "right that's what i'm saying right", "we can do that but then we're not acting as a council", "we're acting as a single person so i think the discussion was to act as a council and that's only if everybody's in agreement right so let me work with mr thorn on this", "and if anything we'll just i'll see i'll ask mr strikeman if this is time sensitive in any way and if we draft anything it will be a memo simply asking them to hold their decision until we can review the circumstances", "i'd be agreeable to asking them to hold the decision", "yeah yep", "and i'll put it out to everybody before we actually formally send it to the chair also so that everybody's in agreement if we're acting as one voice", "so okay", "anything else to come before government operations ask for a motion to adjourn", "i'll second all in favor", "aye", "call to order claims so moved", "i'll second it all in favor aye", "also just say i'm going to pass this around the letter we sent to governor cuomo after the death of his father we've all seen the letter we got but this was also the program from the service"], "name": ["committee_03_02_2015/committee_03_02_2015/committee_03_02_2015_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "committee_03_02_2015/committee_03_02_2015/committee_03_02_2015_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "committee_03_02_2015/committee_03_02_2015/committee_03_02_2015_DOT_flac_00002.flac", 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"all right i'm gonna call to order city development and planning committee", "first item on the agenda is entitled schenectady's economic strengths and this was the brainchild of our deputy clerk chad putman", "and i'm gonna ask him to tell you about what this involves", "sure thanks peggy", "so i'd approached peggy and the idea is to have the city council at the direction of the city or the city council president would host an economic strengths review in a public structured and scheduled way", "the presentations would take place at the beginning of the city council meeting once a month and last about ten minutes or so", "and the presentations would feature locally based leaders in corporation industry area business districts healthcare education and nonprofits", "and the presentations would focus on the industry or businesses generated revenue the number of jobs the business or corporation creates or offers here in the local area the innovation and production that's taking place along with a review of the businesses history and future planning", "so it's an opportunity to bring in a lot of the great economic strengths that we have and have them do a quick presentation at the beginning of the city council meeting over the next twelve months", "i figured it'd be a good chance to show off some of the positive things that are happening and highlight some of the good stuff", "so i think it's a great idea and we're gonna start on we have scheduled for november phillip morris from proctors has agreed to come in and be the first presentation", "and we're working on finalizing plans to have transfinder come in and speak to city council in december so we're underway okay i just wanted this for information purposes", "good thank you", "all right ceremonial resolution for john senisi", "ms brazzo are you gonna ask for that yes we just recently got an email that mr senisi which was one of the founding partners of synthesis would be retiring after many years of service in the community and also commitment to the community", "and we thought it would be nice to recognize him with a ceremonial resolution", "very good", "so i will entertain a motion to approve that", "i will move it", "okay second", "all in favor aye okay the next two items deal with the alcohol waivers that we've had a public hearing about that and just needed to get it back on the agenda", "ms brazzo anything else you wanted to say on those no actually it's funny because i was just about to email and say look what's to this and i opened up the agenda and it was there so", "do you have an update mr pelisepo on the two you were going to go to get support to put a cross at central park pavilion alcohol waiver and also the closing the streets off regarding the side that we saw that we had on the agenda i should have", "i'm sorry i don't have any specific information about that today", "what we were talking about before the situation is kinda different", "but we put it on the agenda for two weeks for two weeks", "i'll make sure that we something to and i know that mr erikson was just looking for maybe some more specific costs associated with the closing of the streets so we can make sure that proposed and we're looking at somewhere around two hundred or so but i have to make sure that we at least covered our costs with what we have and then the park fee", "we had a public hearing on it already didn't we yep", "but nobody came", "no", "no", "so just what we proposed to do okay", "so we're holding this for two weeks then okay", "i'll call for a public hearing regarding the zoning change", "mr shikeman thank you", "when we adopted the new zoning ordinance in two thousand and eight we made a change in the way information goes out with presenting a zoning ordinance", "the r3 district which is multiple family district basically and you can see in what i handed out it's intended to accommodate new and existing residential development at a moderately higher density and it's intended to permit subject to a special permit higher density residential development", "so that's what's in the intent but when you get into the actual language there there's no mechanism by how we'd do this or anything that sets guidelines for it", "so it's probably the planning commission about it and they made a recommendation that basically and the other thing they say is that the r3 district which is supposed to be at higher density the density is the same density as what's allowed in the two family district okay so basically the proposal that the planning commission would like to do is keep the residential density at two thousand two hundred and fifty per dwelling unit the same as the two family but also allow it to go for lots that are larger than a half acre up to one unit per one thousand two hundred and fifty subject to the issuance of a special use permit that gives some kind of a mechanism by how you get this higher density", "it's only for larger lots and i should also state at the same time this came to light when there was a proposal to redevelop the lot across from home depot on cambridge", "so they wanted to go to a higher density that was free but all they could do was the same that was allowed in the two family district", "that's the first piece", "so if anybody has questions on that before i get to the second piece", "is there a specific area that you're talking about right now is there a specific area that has to be developed well this one here i mean it came to light because of the r3 district which is the area around wait loopy towers on cambridge over by same golf course", "there are many multiple family zoning areas netherlands village netherlands sheridan village area", "there's also along the union street corridor multiple family districts but most of those wouldn't be allowed because those are smaller lots under twelve acre", "so mostly this would impact the larger areas", "all of kings road on the same side as the development the serafini development and the parkland senior housing", "so that's another area where it would be", "mr erikson would it also play in like alcove or any developments going on there or not really no alco is commercial and it makes use of development and that's already allowed at a higher density the one thousand two hundred and fifty as of right", "there was talk of doing residential", "right high density residential areas", "they can do that oh they can do it under the current they can do that", "i mean it's within the guidelines but alco allows for higher development than r3", "oh", "downtown allows for higher development than r3", "any questions and the other one is just a clean up of uses requiring site plan", "again with the two thousand and eight ordinance the special permit changed from the zoning board to the planning commission and language was put in there that basically says that any case where a special use permit is required no separate site plan review shall be required", "what that was supposed to imply was that you didn't have to come in twice", "you could come in at the same meeting but what it implies is that if you come in for a special use permit you don't need to come in for site plan review", "so we just want to strike that language which means you're gonna be doing both", "so this is a call for a public hearing", "any other questions or comments i'll entertain the motion to move that", "okay second by ms brazzo", "all in favor aye okay", "a revocable permit for tie tie inc this is a revocable permit for the tie tie bistro formerly the bangkok bistro on the corner of erie and state", "a little unique to the tie tie bistro is that it is on a corner and that this is for both a sign and an awning", "both were existing however they will be new now due to the building's name change and ownership change", "i went out to the site and examined where the awning currently is", "if you see here there is lighting already installed", "and it looks kind of bad right now because it's not covered by that so this is to replace it like you see in the rendering with a new front awning and then a new sign on the erie boulevard side where there originally was a sign that said the previous business", "questions generally though the same dimensions", "yes yep everything is generally the exact same setup", "i'll it", "okay and second", "this board appeal all in favor aye okay thanks thank you", "and then the one hundred and eight brandywine will pull that for executive session", "so i'll entertain the motion then to recess city of oh wait we have one more resolution", "go ahead", "yes the working which is we put i just want to remind you that we'll go on the 15th", "yeah that's already been passed", "yes we've already approved that", "yes", "and also friendship baptist church i believe are having their 74th anniversary and they want a ceremonial resolution but to be given at the church not city council meeting", "okay", "i move that", "all right second", "all in favor aye", "okay so now i will entertain a motion to recess city development planning", "okay movement is processed second is supported all in favor aye all right", "health and rec", "call to order health and rec meeting to breast cancer awareness month", "yeah this is an annual resolution we do", "and representatives from the fire department will come you know with their pink shirts and also from their foundation to accept it", "all those in favor aye okay italianamerican heritage month", "mr riggey", "yes we did that last year for the first time in a while i think so the same resolution designating october as american heritage month", "i move", "i second", "all those in favor aye okay domestic violence awareness month is", "again that's another one i think we've done", "we do annually", "so i would just recommend we do that", "i'm all in second", "all those in favor", "aye", "okay and next we the woodlawn reserve", "they have a hundred different topic but it's going to be pending so miss peraza okay if you remember the city is holding some grant money that belonged to the woodlawn preserve and the woodlawn preserve strategic plan and things of that nature", "and the officer vinny he looked at me and he said you know it would be great if we could have that money and i said well we will give you that money", "we just ask you to please provide us with some documentation as to what the land is gonna be used for what would going out of the preserve that kind of thing and i just say here you go this is for you know so in your packet is a tremendous amount of documentation as to what they've accomplished along with receipts from", "and i think it actually exceeds the amount of the grant money", "we need to find out the exact amount of that", "and i know you think it was twenty", "i think it was two thousand and something if i remember right", "but i just wanted to put it in there for you to review because you know it is technically money that's earmarked for the woodlawn preserve and here has been doing a tremendous amount of work", "so i wanted to put forth the council consideration to reimburse the committee for your work", "that's already been expended", "well i'm not sure there's money left", "ms digenova was looking into that did you yes", "so took a look at this and it appears that the grant was quite a while ago and the city did apply for mr ritner particularly did apply for a three thousand grant but the state only allowed for twenty three thousand six hundred of grant funds", "and the city actually along with and supporting woodlawn disbursed twenty nine thousand five hundred already using some of its own funds", "so not that this should stop the council if you wanted to do something other than this but the grant has been exhausted", "okay", "that's good to know", "if you could just send me word of that and then i'll get that out the last week we had a balance hanging out there but that was probably based on the thirty thousand", "yup okay", "thank you very much", "anything else from the board of health and recreation if not so moved", "second", "all those in favor say aye aye adjourned", "all right i will call to order government operations", "we're gonna talk about setting some parking rates it's my hearing", "and then at this point in time the council didn't address for what the parking meter rates could be either set by the mayor or his deputy", "so i guess if you just tell us what you were thinking for an upper limit you could rewrite the legislation", "have you", "this question", "now have you thought in terms of what you would recommend as an you know like a range i mean like are we talking something like five dollars for an hour", "i don't think there was you know off the top of my head how many times it would actually go up that high but", "i'm not sure only five dollars too little power i know in downtown like in the theater district right around capitol rap it's one hundred and twenty five for an hour", "so it's you know that's at the highest rate that i've ever paid anywhere in the city", "i mean my thought is you know if we can do it this way to have kind of a two tiered rate one is the general rates right any day of the week do you want to go down there and we should set a limit of like you said one hundred and twenty five whatever our current downtown premium rates are", "maybe you get a little bit of room for movement on that", "and then a special event rate", "and we say okay special events can be no more than x number you know x amount", "that way it would kind of i think the resident community people that were coming here are sure that we're not gonna jack up the rates to three a minute or something ridiculous because hey we got up to five", "so maybe if a two tier for two different situations one is for events and then one is for regular non event day", "so whatever those numbers are i guess we'd have to figure that out", "but i think the two tiered approach might be maybe more appropriate", "well we had originally talked about setting a maximum and letting the parking people use their professional discretion as to anything up to that maximum", "so i mean i don't know", "do we want to limit it totally two tiers what if there was a third situation and", "you know what i mean i mean there could conceivably be times it'd be free too", "sure", "like you know right but i think essentially what we with pop limit right setting a maximum so if we said five just the number that was thrown out for an event that might be too low", "but for an average tuesday at noon it might be too high", "and so they're two different scenarios we have especially events are clearly times where the rate is probably going to be higher you know and then", "personally i think you know from someone who pumps money into meters on a regular basis you know it's that act of putting in a million quarters that makes you feel like oh my goodness you know and differently than a new parking system right but my personal opinion is the one hundred and twenty five an hour is a decent maximum rate", "i mean when you're putting five quarters in you're watching the change drop twelve minutes you know it's", "but you know that's just i'm just throwing it out there", "what are their current highest areas one now", "is it one now one", "yeah", "one", "i think is one", "and the other thing in conversation with the mayor he used to say rather than designating him or his designee that he would correct me if i'm wrong that you would like finance commissioner and i forget which the other one was", "it was between the police chief and fire even though the legislation was worded so it would be me or my designee that seemed to generate a level of controversy just the nature of doing business here", "so would you like us to officially change that or at this point it's the product of the council except the rate to determine who's gonna sign it", "i and already asked we should make a decision", "yeah", "i personally think it could be the mayor", "the council should decide what it is", "in this case i think the mayor would have the ability to make you know adjustments as needed right that's the job i don't know", "i wouldn't know if i'd be comfortable delegating that to you know somebody one layer two layers below the mayor on a hierarchy", "i think either the mayor or the town should be doing it", "right now it's our job", "we're saying hey we'll let somebody else do it", "we'll have the mayor do it if that's more efficient as long as we set the limit", "well i think that if we set the high limit having it be the mayor or his designee is", "if the mayor is gonna designate somebody who's going to designate someone who has the ability to set it in a proper manner right he's not gonna say you know hey", "yeah i agree with you", "joe what would you like partner today you know so my opinion is we set the maximum because it is a function as capital and then allow the mayor or his designee as he sees fit as the business person overseeing the city to change the rate within that structure", "i agree i agree", "is there so is there any other discussion or does no we're gonna go with the one hundred and twenty five does that one hundred and twenty five accommodate for events cause i know there was concern with the special rates", "i don't believe that we're in a to have to do it separately i mean for us", "so this is just for regular parking correct", "back in business all right so do we want to handle both of them do we want to address both of them tonight regular parking days and then special night parking rates what are we going to do what will be done with the existing meters right now they're talking about setting all of the meters that way", "well i think the existing meters we're looking to just leave as is and as we phase them out and put the pay stations in we would adapt the new flexibility and are there police stations in already yep okay", "when do we anticipate they're going in i have an order coming in", "what did you have til the end of the month because you have to do something or we're gonna have meters that are programmed with the existing rates that we're gonna have to turn around and pay to have them reprogrammed for something different", "so if we set a maximum rate why would we have to have a different rate for special events i mean it would be at your discretion to adjust the meters whether it was an event or not an event or everyday parking the police have if you set it at one hundred and twenty five an hour and we decided we want to charge in the evening where it's now free parking we wanted to charge for an event or on a saturday or something else", "i'm not sure the one hundred and twenty five would", "okay so what we're talking about right now is within the parking limitation does connect to the say from eight in the morning till six at night or nine in the morning until six at night on monday to friday", "that's what we're talking about right now", "so you're talking about off hours it's the total unionization of eight or so if we want to do an event evening or some time there's multiple things happening i think some places are getting up ten for off street parking", "most department proctors are downtown", "so you want the ability to be able to charge up to ten and at this rate it wouldn't get you there for", "i want an event rate so council so as the chair of the government operations committee there could i ask that you put a proposal together of what you would like to see happen with the parking and then we can work out we've gone back and forth a couple of times you're done hearing so it's really the decision of the council at this point", "it sounds like we're going with one hundred and twenty five an hour and then special event ten", "that would be the maximum", "mr walden", "i just wanted to check with you what would be the rate and what would the procedure to change the rate because if we wanted to change the rate for the mayor then we want to change it quickly or would it be via resolution or be a while they're talking what's on the table right now is that the council will set", "the council would set the maximum", "right", "excuse me the council would set the maximum rate and then the mayor could use his discretion up to that maximum", "thank you", "if he wanted to change it five times a day you could continue to get five times a day", "one of the issues that came up before was something that and i talked about", "i don't know if it was", "it wasn't an email regarding downtown specifically the main corridor station", "and it is a dollar right now but going without", "one of the discussions was about getting the", "the word was the items you rate you wanted a certain vacancy rate and you don't want the downtown in front of the property", "and that lot being constantly filled", "and what i would like is to doing this with the mayor and his designee being able to set up the rates would be if we move it off just in that particular area we're seeing a lot of camping out parking to a woman of one hundred and twenty five and then observed for four months and possibly one hundred and fifty and observe until we're getting that opening an attorney because that parking is meant for two hours", "it's meant for people coming in is not meant for people to just feed the meter so you have to find that balance", "i just want to make sure that we're putting enough flexibility into that specific rate where we can find the balance because the new meters will allow us to zone the city a little bit easier", "and that particular zone is what we're seeing a lot of low term and other areas we're going to be able to keep it right in that", "but i just want to make sure that we can bring it to where we can find our baskets", "well i for one feel like the council certainly isn't our specialty is not parking rates right but our specialty is oversight so that we make sure everything's fair", "but i think we always want the department leaders and mayor to come to us and say this is what we propose and this is why not necessarily that we want to make it up from scratch", "so if it's your recommendation that we start at one hundred and twenty five but that we keep in constant communication with one another", "i certainly feel comfortable with that", "and then it seems like the special event issue is something different correct so do we need to take a vote on this and then put a special event with a special event on for two weeks is it something we want to talk about tonight and put legislation together for i wouldn't refer to council make a recommendation for legislation so we can put those upper limits in place and go forward", "again we're basing us in to where you have i call a small footprint which will initially utilize the pay station but where we have the base stations we will have a lot more empirical data in terms of utilization of those parking spaces", "so as we phase those stations across the downtown we will better be able to see some of those points was talking about where people were staying", "there were getting higher turnover and again trying to create a user friendly atmosphere in downtown", "okay", "so i take what a hearing is that we're looking to pass a resolution that maximizes the parking rate at one hundred and twenty five an hour", "and then we're going to revisit this with mr weill as we go forward well you're going to come and we're going to have you feedback yes mr i mean everybody wants to keep it low but the maximum rate's one hundred and twenty five right", "you have no vacancy", "and nobody knows what price you want to set until you have some experience that you should probably set it a little bit higher then it's a maximum break", "you want to give some flexibility that's higher than what it is now", "okay", "mr mcgee did you ever make a comment no i'm thinking because i've seen it", "i think you can start in one hundred and fifty then take it up fifty cents more than what we're currently charging", "and then we can revisit that after we see cause i'd be willing to not think twice about it how you program it for a minimum for fifteen minutes i'm going into the post office to buy stamps", "i don't know enough about them but they have might be for you", "well we're talking about these kiosks", "you put in the amount of time that you want credit card", "so that's how you get the amount of time that you want", "but the amount that you're getting could be you're getting fifteen minutes that's going to be like twelve and a half ten minutes right at the beginning of the first phase i'm looking to have these have to be programmed remotely", "as we get more of the base stations in place our ability to just program them inhouse would evolve with those", "right now you'd be set up for the vendor would have to program for what we have them put in place", "one set of criteria and then once we go down the road modify it based on new data and utilization rates", "mr harrison did you have something you wanted to add i just think that this whole conversation started with this request to the public hearing", "there's something on the books to that limit that we council sat that at some point in the past we've been requested to change it", "and then we said hey let's instead of changing it every other moment as we try to figure things out we said hey let's do a limit and so at this point short of what it set at today we need somebody from the administration to say we suggest the limit to be set at this number", "going forward for regular parking and a limit to be set at this amount for special events", "because right now we don't have accommodation for special events", "and so you need to accommodate special events", "right i said it before that", "so someone just needs to roll down a number", "yeah", "so", "i think just in the conversation here i'm hearing like maybe ten limit for special events and one hundred and fifty for the meters", "and again can go back and revisit as as we get more data", "i think its yeah", "i think i'm fairly comfortable with ten an hour for special events ten flat fee", "yeah", "that i'm okay with because we do have all all of our and lots are charging the premium ones and state students premium parking", "ten the other the surface lot down beyond garage five", "and keep in mind that the parking garage for event night", "so we are talking about keeping the parking space on state street", "okay", "so it sounds like we are looking at a maximum rate per hour on nonspecial event times of one hundred and fifty", "and we are looking for a special event rates of ten for a flat fee in separate legislation", "so is that what everybody understands", "okay so i left", "that might be able to be incorporated into the legislation", "yeah i was about to say", "okay okay in same legislation", "so that'd being okay i'll do it", "thank you do i have a second i will second", "excellent an all who's in favor aye i now feel very powerful good", "excellent", "anything else come before government operations i ask for a motion to adjourn", "second i'll second", "okay we were all having so much fun", "all those in favor aye excellent", "all right i'll call into order public safety", "one item on the agenda is the citizens", "this is the recommendation for legal women voters", "right excellent", "i think it's wonderful i'd love to move that", "i'll second it", "all in favor", "aye motion to adjourn", "so moved", "second", "all in favor aye adjourned", "okay call to order public service and utilities couple contracts mr olsen and mr", "first the weekly cover", "okay the legislative request form we have in front of you to cover construction they go out to bid we had three responsible bidders respond a carpet construction that gave us the lowest possible rate of seven hundred and fifty five thousand nine hundred and ninety to replace the should cover it", "we talked about this for a couple of years now and we have an advantage of doing it this year because national is doing their portion of the in their property up to weaver street", "so they're actually handling all the bypass parking", "so we don't have to do any bypass parking", "if we move on this project", "there's also a restriction currently that runs through the culvert of a lane which is thirty six inch center in addition to the replacement of the culvert or something base and put it in for the culver for the flow of water", "we were trying everything to try to minimize the flooding that exists in here", "broadway", "that has been an issue in the past", "this will not completely solve that issue", "this will not completely solve the issue of flooding on weaver street or this but it should help", "not every time but there's no guarantee", "you have that colvert runs underneath the railroad down", "and in fact gary you and i saw that pipe one night you can only just get so much water through there which has caused it to backup these improvements will help", "they will not put the salt in the problem but they will help", "and we are taking advantage of the fact that national grid will be providing the bypass pumping of that which is significant that's that's a lot a lot of money", "we get to match our systems together as well", "so it is if there's ever a time to do it this is the time", "construction would begin", "it takes four to six weeks", "sometime first week of november hopefully", "yeah it takes about four to six weeks to get the precast material for the sections of the culvert", "it would be be very similar to the work that we did on", "it's all covered yes", "is this in the capital budget is a capital budget project", "so i'll cover yes would be a budget", "how much are you budgeting for we had six hundred and sixty eight thousand", "there was some remaining money in some of the old capital loan", "so we're fine", "any idea why we came in over budget in terms of why yeah", "well this was a budget that was done a couple of years ago", "we did put an escalator in there", "it was budgeted at just under six hundred thousand with an escalator in here for today's prices", "there's an inverted siphon in that road which is going to be a little bit of extra work", "and then we also did the engineering came out of that budget which was not allocated for in the original budget", "to be an issue", "we always anticipate national grid doing the bypass break and all that kinda stuff or no they're under a consent order to box that prick in other property because of the contamination on the property", "so what they had to do was they had to bypass to put that precast in as they go through their property", "so we're going to just piggyback on that bypass", "we do ours", "but i mean if they weren't new we always anticipated that being tied in no we saved a bunch of money by having them do the bypass", "no", "on the originally the budget with the first set", "we did the six hundred thousand", "okay", "we did anticipate we'd been looking for them to make this improvement for probably nine or ten years", "we have leads that go into that crick that are salted in we can't do the maintenance at the end of our outfall", "which plugs up those stormwater lead in front of seven hundred and forty five seven hundred and ninety seven and eight hundred and forty five broadway", "so we want clear passage of that water into the culvert", "so this is the methodology that they chose and negotiated with dc for their consent", "so did anticipate them putting their culvert in when paul originally set the budget but that was some time ago", "in the works in the past few years now", "but that's it", "thank you", "carl this has been a recurring conversation regarding this particular contractor and they're hiring the women and minority", "so i'd like to know how that's been addressed in this particular contract they have affirmed actually the requirements for this contract", "i know this contractor has offered to have a job fair", "he would like the opportunity to be able to hire more women and minority", "if you'd like i could set the time that you sit down and discuss that with either he or his hr people but he did offer that to marian quite some time ago", "so he's trying", "i had a question", "when is this going to start this project hopefully first part of november", "first part of november we got to get shop drawings in to get shop drawings turned around and approved", "and the precast stuff to be ordered", "the sections of precast culvert have to be ordered", "that'll take four or five weeks", "so this this will go on until the winter", "the good part is that we can close project", "i guess that's my next question", "three months", "yeah", "will there be much destruction that's my next question", "well that section of road", "you can easily bypass that over", "so we can afford to close that section of weaver street for an extended period of time without really hurting anyone", "trucks will come in from the one side for the transportation and local traffic on the other", "there's only two businesses the machine shop the engine shop there and another small car repair shop they'll be able to access their businesses", "there'll be someone where we had to close the road", "the the advantage of weaver street is it's only an eightfoothigh inch overpass", "so you don't get a lot of truck traffic through there", "all the truck traffic goes on", "so it'll just the only inconvenience will be", "people have to take avenue rather than weaver street to cut over to", "which isn't much of an inconvenience", "any other questions i'll entertain a motion", "i will move the vote", "second", "all those in favor aye unfortunately it's that time year", "we should discuss specifications again this year for for assistance with from private contractors with our snowfall cover construction was not only the lowest bidder but the only bidder and the rates i believe are the same as last year", "we put this on bid net and we had a couple of people we had like like seven people view it", "a couple of people picked it up but we didn't get any additional hits", "this also includes bidding for snow removal", "this contract we usually activate our private on average about five times a year", "we usually get twelve or thirteen storms that we had to go out about five times a year", "this average in cost eight thousand nine thousand a year", "the bigger advantage to this is the prebid removal contract and the volume of equipment necessary", "so that if we do get a big storm or when we get a big storm similar to that if we had about twelve years ago we have the opportunity to be able to mobilize equipment very quickly to remove shelters in the streets which is really important", "so we're fortunate that we have a bidder that has that capability", "well good news is were only getting a few this year so", "well you're getting the forecast", "well i appreciate you bringing this to us a little bit earlier than before it literally snows right on us", "so we'll talk about at the other meeting", "good good", "obtain a motion", "i will move it", "second all in favor aye thank you", "okay anything to come before public service and utilities i motion to adjourn", "i second", "all in favor", "aye so i will move to a second"], "name": ["committee_10_07_2013/committee_10_07_2013/committee_10_07_2013_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "committee_10_07_2013/committee_10_07_2013/committee_10_07_2013_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "committee_10_07_2013/committee_10_07_2013/committee_10_07_2013_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "committee_10_07_2013/committee_10_07_2013/committee_10_07_2013_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "committee_10_07_2013/committee_10_07_2013/committee_10_07_2013_DOT_flac_00004.flac", "committee_10_07_2013/committee_10_07_2013/committee_10_07_2013_DOT_flac_00005.flac", 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budget once again", "no no speakers great easy", "it's very similar to last years", "questions comments i'll move it", "second", "all those in favor aye", "thank you very much", "any other business to come before the finance committee today i move we adjourn", "second", "all those in favor aye", "thank you we're adjourned", "all right i'll call city development and planning to order", "first item is a ceremonial resolution for the annual toy run by lee sykes and broadway choppers", "ms parazzo yep i know that we've certainly noted some other toys for tots efforts and mr sykes has been a business owner in the city for a considerable amount of time", "and this is his seventh annual toys for tots run and he really organizes it all himself", "and they get between depending on the year and the weather of course anywhere between thirty and one hundred motorcyclists that deliver toys from his shop on kings road down to the st james square plaza", "so i thought it'd just be a nice recognition of some grassroots efforts", "um hm okay", "any questions sir no", "i'll move it", "okay second all in favor aye", "a revocable permit for ya ya's house mr wallan", "good evening", "good evening", "this is the first of two revocable permits", "number six hundred ya ya's house at one hundred and seventy lafayette street", "this is a former cafe that is being repurposed as another restaurant", "has gone through government's approval", "i see no reason for not issuing it", "questions if not i'll entertain a motion to approve it", "okay mr ferrari", "seconded by ms gruefield all in favor aye", "okay and second one second number five hundred and ninety nine is for a sign that you might recognize", "it was a metro pcs the tenant is now relocating down the road from the building that they were in", "however the insurance and all of the permits are address specific", "so they needed to apply for a new revocable permit for the new address", "questions entertain a motion to approve it okay mr ferrari so did you have a question i'm sorry", "it's okay so this is currently it looks like near hewlett and looks like saint hewlett", "so it's there now and it's moving further down", "is that what you're saying okay", "okay so then i'll entertain a motion to approve second all in favor aye", "okay thank you yep and final review for the electric vehicle charging stations and they didn't have any comments mr shykeman didn't hear of any questions", "okay so i'll entertain a motion to approve this moved seconded all in favor aye", "alright then i'll entertain a motion to recess", "i'll move so we got one in planning and do executive session later", "okay moved and seconded all in favor aye", "called to order public safety first item on what were you watching us i wanted to make an entrance sorry", "first item on the agenda two thousand and fifteen state homeland security grant program", "i'm so sorry i apologize", "i thought we were further down the agenda so not that we don't want to get in", "i'm sorry homeland security first", "yes", "all right this is obviously homeland security looking to participate i have a cold i apologize", "albany in rensselaer county troy albany pd", "and with us it's a yearly application we make to homeland security for let's say infrastructural needs", "we requested more than one hundred and thirty thousand dollars", "in that we requested one hundred and ten thousand would be for license plate readers stationary on intersections", "and twenty thousand sorry for my for voice", "twenty thousand for more portable radios for the department", "so again the license plate readers we have some out there right now", "there are three different intersections within the city", "not allowed to say publicly where the are at this point", "well we could say but they're more for the higher crimes", "this money here will kind of be earmarked towards entrance places cities itself homeland security for bridges infrastructure and so forth that may be added and again with the portable radios they're kinda replacing old ones", "stockpile some newer ones so if we get a major incident we can share them with other people and so forth", "that's all i got", "so the plan is to use one hundred and ten thousand for the license plate reader correct", "and twenty thousand for the portable radios yes we're trying to grow our license plate", "license plate readers really enhance our capabilities from the neighborhood camera projects that we have", "right now we only have approximately with the county one hundred and eighty cameras within the city", "the license plate readers obviously give us that much more data and intel if we have an incident and proactive policing so", "any questions go ahead mr", "so how many approximately how many readers do you think we're going to get for the amount of money", "i don't know last time we we we used approximately if i remember correctly one hundred thousand or so", "but that we had to build a we had to get a server you know we had to spend some infrastructure money", "so we can add more cameras on road", "also anytime mobile cameras that we get we can add onto the system", "so we had to build some infrastructure it also i can't answer it because it depends on the intersection", "okay", "one intersection we did we needed like five cameras", "yeah because it's just such a big intersection", "so depending on we haven't really kind of designated which exactly", "we're gonna have some meetings on it", "which intersections we want to do but it may only do a couple of intersections", "it may do five intersections", "we can kind of present that to you at a later date if need be but that's where we're at with it", "very good good good funds", "any other questions i have a motion i'll move it", "i'll second it", "all in favor aye", "next item on the agenda the two thousand and sixteen nys special traffic options program to stop dwi", "apologize my voice again i'm losing it", "this is a yearly thing again it runs through the county and then they kind of break it up disperse it to the agencies within the county", "and against participate in statewide dwi saturations throughout the year", "i kinda marked the calendar year wrong", "it's my fault it's two thousand and sixteen", "so obviously we don't have to use this in three days", "can you do that we can can trust us", "no it's for a year and again more easily to join the initiatives that we hope", "you know you see some of these things that initiatives go up around holidays and so forth", "then we we participate in the state obviously reimbursed us for overtime for those", "again this is a yearly grant that the amount has gone up every year and i pray that lieutenant stickton is with us tonight", "it's really his his baby his efforts", "he's the one that makes the wheels turn so good", "questions do i have a motion i'll move it", "i'll second it", "all in favor aye", "i get to sit down", "nice doing business with you thank you thank you", "the next item on the agenda is a police vehicle fitout bid to niskayuna tire service", "ms dechano", "i give you the fiscal overview of what's before you", "in the in two thousand and fifteen the city determined that eight new police vehicles were to be acquired", "and the city would afford to do that earlier this year", "specifically got delivery around may of two thousand and fifteen and certain fitout of the vehicles needed to be done outside of the city", "there were a few things that were done inside of the city some painting and that type of thing correct yes and and so we've gone out to bid for the rest of the fitout", "that's like the light bars and that type of thing", "at three bids were received with the lowest being seven million one hundred and thirty six thousand one hundred and twenty as shown in your legislative request", "that was your niskayuna tire service", "a vendor that from this perspective is new to the city for this type of work", "so anthony ferrari richard and these two gentlemen assistant chief falbo and lieutenant stickney worked together to kick the tires pardon the pun", "and make sure that everything you know that niskayuna tire can can meet the needs and the service requirement that we have", "and it was determined that they can", "this will be coming up under budget from what we had projected would be for these vehicles with the fitout", "and we're requesting that you consider such an award", "questions so just for clarification", "we don't have a vendor in the city that does this type of work or they're bid came in higher or historically the city had worked with another vendor which is is in the local area also but they came in as the second bid", "their bid was about eleven thousand more eleven thousand five hundred more", "significant yep and it's really sort of a good thing from the perspective of in the past we haven't really seen a lot of activity but we had quite a few downloads of the bid", "and then three people that did respond and staff was able to take a look at this new vendor", "new to us from his perspective and determined that it would be appropriate to move forward", "this is going to be fitout for eight vehicles", "eight vehicles right", "i know you checked out this niskayuna tire", "you think their capable of doing because it's pretty extensive work isn't it it is but the the vendor has received training in certain areas that regarding the installation of some of the components so", "what exactly are the components that are to be installed the lighting system the communication system", "the camera system our incar video actually requires a separate certification because we're still under warranty with that", "so they went out on their own to get certified to be able to install the items that we currently have", "inhouse we're doing the painting and the decals", "yes", "things like now i understand there's a problem with decals not appearing though", "no is there no problem no we've had in the past but nothing recent", "you've taken care of it now yeah", "i know there's some vehicles in the lot that were that were failing", "i don't know if it was the vendor or the applications", "i don't know", "yeah i mean some of the vehicles that had had some peeling and stuff are older vehicles", "they don't have that much of a warranty with them the decals the vendors are guaranteeing us a certain amount of time for the bid for a one hundred warranty on any of their work", "materials and craftsmanship so", "any other questions i move this", "second all in favor aye", "thank you", "thank you", "any other business before public safety i move we adjourn", "second", "all in favor aye", "thank you", "i'd like to order call to order public service and utilities", "first item on the agenda is the adoption of various sections of streets to be incorporated and to consolidate the local street and highway improvement program mr wong", "hello the item in front of you is kind of a general housekeeping item", "every year the new york state department of transportation sends the department of engineering our local inventory of highway and streets and we review it", "this year we decided to do a thorough evaluation of it and we came up with a couple of additions to the streets and some clarifications that we wanted made", "only added up to about a half a mile of road but we wanted this to be our", "it is our state official document that they use every year", "so we wanted to make sure it was accurate as possible", "the list that you have in front of you is what we found to be either changes or admissions", "the reason that it is in front of you today as a council is that checking our historical books", "and i guess what we would call chuck what were they called the legislative books prior we could not find any history of adoption of these streets", "and since we couldn't find any history of adoption of the streets by the council we needed to pass something that we could put with our paperwork to say that the city officially recognizes that these are city streets", "so we can't just have them on paper like this so that the resolution that you're in front of would be the adoption or the recognition that these particular segments of city streets are in fact owned and maintained by the city", "cool any questions so let's just take a look", "do you have the list in front of you by any chance chris no", "the very last one strong street", "so that column all the way to the left what is that and what are the other two designates at the far right what street name yeah", "so strong street between hewlett and summit", "that's what it is between those areas", "correct okay", "revised beginning and revised end", "very good so in some cases too the street might've been recognized but the ends were blank because the dot didn't know where it began and and began and ended", "we also picked up a couple of smaller alleys and roads", "so yeah you see it says one hundred and sixty two as there is a change in length", "we actually found some that they were actually had a little bit long so the total balance we ended up picking up i believe three quarters of a mile", "and that's what goes into the evaluation of our chips money", "so it's not going to change much", "it's just to have this as accurate so", "i think we said we had one hundred and seventy one miles and now would have seventeen thousand one hundred and seventy five", "there you go", "thank you", "any other questions i'll move", "i'll second", "all in favor aye", "second item on the agenda is a call for public hearing to incorporate eight hundred and ten arch street", "so we didn't have any backup but this is a call for public hearing and we can have more backup as we go forward but we just wanted to approach this for now for a call for public hearing", "eight hundred and ten arch street was taken down by the city", "eight hundred and ten arch street is parcel forty four on your map", "and it was a very odd parcel probably one of the most unique parcels in the city as it was in appeared to be in the road", "and it was actually in front of two houses", "wow", "so the roof line actually snow from the roof line would actually fall onto the adjacent houses sidewalks", "and it was a very odd situation if you were to see it", "if you google street view it it's a very odd situation", "so the house is now down", "so the idea is that we would like to incorporate that as part of arch street", "so that it now part is part of the road and that these two houses parcels forty five and forty six will be on arch street", "any questions i'll move it", "i'll second", "all in favor aye", "thank you any other business to come before public service and utilities i move we adjourn", "second", "all in favor okay thank you", "call to order health and recreation", "one item on the agenda is ceremonial resolution of the greenhouse ms parazzo", "so a group of volunteers have gotten together and done yeoman's work at the greenhouse under the leadership of mr soran", "they've done regular cleanups every thursday throughout the summer", "they had a plant sale in the fall", "proceeds going to make repairs to the greenhouse heat the greenhouse to protect the glass", "we did have some glass breakage last winter and i understand that they were there today", "and we was it thirty six panels i thought i saw thirty something yeah", "yeah that they either repaired or replaced or screwed in tighter you know", "so we're protecting our greenhouses which are very very important and again group of citizens that have gotten together on their own time to work really hard to protect an important part of the city so i would just like to have that recognized", "i'll move it", "second second i'll second okay", "all in favor okay", "okay anything else to come before health and recreation if not entertain the motion to adjourn", "adjourn", "second", "all those in favor aye", "we're adjourned", 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7610, 1840, 1300, 12523, 6285, 22154, 32274, 12290, 4840, 6843, 11627, 8730, 9020, 19400, 28480, 1930, 4103, 8500, 1018, 12722, 17730, 4420, 10348, 3682, 12364, 2953, 8833, 5263, 14248, 14952, 5560, 2280, 2840, 3266, 6604, 8638, 10682, 10890, 5594, 3637, 9719, 8494, 3256, 11630, 5650, 3753, 2817, 2663, 5027, 1460, 2607, 1316, 5000, 7453, 4697, 20993, 11840, 12235, 13272, 4113, 4283], "label": ["the subcommittee will come to order", "it looks like we have a few members that are coming back", "i have we'll start on a second round of questions", "let me ask you why the rulemaking is it two thousand and twenty as opposed to two thousand and nineteen two thousand and twenty one how did you arrive at the year two thousand and twenty", "essentially we took a look at the amount of aircraft that would have to be retrofitted and if you look at the ga community with two hundred thousand aircraft even with ten years that's twenty thousand aircraft a year that have to be retrofitted", "so that's a fairly aggressive schedule actually", "so that was pretty much one of the drivers", "the other component was we wanted to work with industry and demonstrate that we were going to make this investment and not pull away this is you know been brought to our attention as something that they were concerned with", "so we did the best we could to lay out an aggressive schedule that put that ground infrastructure in place and the best we came up with was two thousand and thirteen", "so technically you would equip you'd want to see that ground infrastructure in place as well so the capabilities are there starting in two thousand and ten you know we'll be putting in the ground infrastructure that this is the uplink capability but by two thousand and thirteen will be completed", "so really it's you're looking at seven years of using the service nationwide", "i'm going to ask you a couple of questions about the mr scovel talked about complemented the faa for the contract and said it's a robust contract", "and i want to talk a little bit about that in a second but so the just for the record and so the subcommittee members know in putting the contract together as far as the itt's responsibilities and and what needs to be accomplished and in timelines and targets who else was consulted in the process pass is represented here mr brantley at the table he has eleven thousand members that he represents the air traffic controllers are an integral part of operating the system", "once it's up and running and wonder if you would tell us how much input the agencies and stakeholders here were involved", "sure as i mentioned earlier when we set up the program office for implementation which was approximately january two thousand and six one of the first things we did was develop a governance structure in that governance structure we have stakeholders which essentially are internal to the faa both in the regulatory side and the air traffic organization so you have people from airports involved", "i have our safety oversight organization our the people that put together the economic analysis our policy people for the nprm on the ato side essentially all the vice presidents for the air traffic organization", "once a month we meet we essentially bring the program issues to the table and we discuss things and and consolidate on an answer", "the other piece of that that governance structure is also the at mac which started in february two thousand and six", "so the air traffic management advisory council essentially the steering meet and steering group established us as a work group and then that's where we meet once a month over at rtca and typically what we're doing is we develop the strategy", "so those strategies are basically the interdependencies of the program and the things that were in the contract basically are appealed out from that", "additionally what we did was as by june two thousand and six we had gone through our first investment analysis which really was a strong signal that we were funded to move forward with adsb starting at that point we in june two thousand and six we had our first industry day and we had three of those industry days where we worked with the manufacturers the people that came to the industry days and solicited information we presented and we had dialogue and all this kind of merged together to create the product as you see in the contract", "mr brantley we'd like to hear from you as well where either you personally or your organization or your members consultant", "no mr chairman we weren't you know with respect to modernization efforts we'd very much like to be involved", "i think our members have a lot to offer the agency but beginning about four years ago the agency informed us that our participation was no longer welcome or needed and we have not been involved since", "and prior to that we were involved in in the adsb program", "but somewhere around three or four years ago you were told that you were no longer welcome yes sir", "why don't you respond to them", "sure i would like to actually prior to the implementation phase moving forward", "so september two thousand and five was a key decision point for the faa to select adsb technology to move forward", "prior to that was the testing demonstration work that occurred up in alaska", "in fact what we developed there is certified bypass", "so we have our employees were involved with the development of the certification process and procedures for those particular elements which validated the requirements", "that's what basically gave the confidence in moving forward in selecting adsb over radar and over multilateral ration", "at that point in time that was those were the three alternatives at the conclusion of that investment decision we move forward and you know basically they moved into implementation and set up a program office and so we've been in a i would say a planning state since january two thousand and six up until this point we've gone through three additional joint resource councils which is a vest investment decisions that acquire the funding for the full program to award the contract", "so all the requirements that we're talking about were validated in the test and demonstration phase with the use of the employees of the effect", "it's troubling to me personally", "and i think to other members of this committee we've held hearings on the flight service station contract with lockheed martin", "we have held hearings on the issue of safety in the workplace in air traffic control towers and other faa facilities and it has been apparent in the past that when the administration is making decisions that they're not consulting with all of the stakeholders and i think that was noted by both the gao", "and i think maybe even mr scovel's predecessor and maybe even mr scovel i don't want to speak for you but there is a disconnect and i just had that discussion with a few members of the subcommittee earlier today and you're not the person that can correct that problem but certainly we need to take that up with the acting administrator it's troubling in it is not in the best interest of what we want is the final product and improving the in this case the air traffic control system", "let me ask mr scovel a final question in your testimony you indicate that itt will have a monopoly over providing adsb services for the next eighteen years wonder if you might talk a little bit about your concerns regarding competition and consumer issues as a result of one contractor that will be in charge and have i think in your words a monopoly over the adsb services for the next eighteen years", "yes mr chairman", "itt will have virtually a monopoly over the service the information that's generated through the adsb system faa owns the data but through the contract faa has consented to itt being able to market to package to sell that data to users who might be interested they might include air carriers", "our information is that ups has indicated they would certainly be interested airports as well", "then they would find a multitude of uses", "and we know that itt is certainly looking on that prospect favorably", "as a policy decision faa and the administration are certainly free to enter into a contract with these terms", "we do have concerns about the nature of the data that's being transmitted that's being permitted to be used in this fashion perhaps marketing concerns as well with competition factors", "we would urge faa to regulate to examine and carefully regulate if appropriate this use of data generated by the contract as it goes forward", "i thank you and the chair now recognizes the ranking member mr", "petra", "okay thank you very much", "i'm not sure if more than one member of the panel may want to address this subject but we're all pretty familiar with the radar based system and all the norad and all the different things that we have in place to try to provide security in our airspace", "so on how will this new system workers are separate systems or how have you is this being is there a has this been scrutinized are there ways this will enhance our security or help us to deal with the unauthorized entrance into our airspace of more effectively and this kind of thing as part of the governance structure i mentioned earlier dod participates at that stakeholders meeting that we discussed and our involvement with them is looking at ways that we can exploit the technology specific applications that have been coming up are right here in the ada", "so the air defense identification zone where if you are adsb equipped it's obvious who you are you have your identification and therefore you can exploit that as knowing there were friendly as opposed to worrying if they're foe same things in their special use airspace or the military operations area", "so there there are ways of exploiting the capability of the identification of coming off the aircraft now and being able to take advantage of it so", "but now their staff tells me they're worried about people pretending to be someone else or using what spoofing i guess could you i don't guess we don't want to go into what you do but you have ways of dealing with spoofers or correct in the specification it's called out that you have to have a means for independent validation of the actual aircraft that were surveilling", "so that means that they have another they have to have another method that's independent of using adsb", "the concern with spoofing deals with the power level of the signal that comes down from the satellites very low and you can perturb it and you could make it to look like something else and so it's vulnerable from that degree", "so what we're what we've requested in the specification is that we have independent validation of those targets", "and to point out that they can do that with their own means the contractor can but we also have our radars in place", "and so when you combine all that information you're able to validate that that target truly is who they are", "chair recognizes gentlemen from north carolina mr hayes the gentlemen from michigan is recognized and we'll just give him his time and not yours mr hayes how's that mr alias", "thank you mr costello", "i apologize for the late arrival but i was at another committee meeting where i'm the ranking member and i had to be there", "fortunately they gave up when votes came", "so i dashed over here mr hayes i understand has already played his user role as a staunch defender of general general aviation", "but there's one specific question i wanted to ask", "if you can have any guidance on there are a great many older general aviation planes around assessments one hundred and fifty two one hundred and seventy two one hundred and eighty two some older and some are recent", "i think adsb is a great thing", "and as a student pilot i would love to have it because it's very hard today to operate the aircraft and be aware of all the airplanes around you", "but i'm concerned about the cost", "if you have an airplane that's worth only twenty to forty thousand you think twice about adding too much to it", "plus many of these planes are owned by individuals who don't have high incomes if they have higher incomes they'd buy better airplanes", "can you give me a ballpark figure of what the cost is going to be for someone trying to put an adsb unit in an older airplane like that", "and i know that it'll be easy to make the transition but i still worry about the costs", "can you give me any figures on that sure i understand your concerns on that", "in fact the alaska probably provides us with the best image of what that was because there were over four hundred aircraft that got retrofitted and some of these were of the type that it wasn't just about putting in a new piece of equipment", "you had to make major modifications to the to the panel wiring antennas", "so all that provided us with enough rich information to get a good feel for it", "you hear us using numbers that are like 10k to 18k", "and when we say the 18k you're really pushing that on", "that's the ones that were more in you know in invasive to the actual aircraft", "also i would suggest that you know as we start this off there's the early adopters that are gonna end up probably paying a little bit more but over time i think the market forces will lower those prices and we speculating somewhere on the order of thirty reduction", "sorry are you saying that about 10k would put the basic unit in the average plan if there's not for those pardon excuse me for the general aviation type aircraft", "yes right okay so the thirty off that would get it down to roughly seven thousand", "okay thank you very much that's helpful", "i'll be happy to yield the remainder of my time to mr hayes", "thank you mr chairman mr taylor benny he worked for the government and we don't want any more six hundred hammers now", "six thousand you can get the box six months ago", "it's gone down since then i don't want to mislead people", "if anyone of them wants you to talk about is the levels of equipage", "you can equip so that you can transmit", "you don't have to have an expensive multifunction display to receive lots of angst amongst the aviation community because of what the faa has done to them in the past we've got we've got proof we're not doing it to them again here", "so talk about the levels of equipment", "if you're going to be a transmit and adsb guy transmit and receive and on up if you talk about that a little bit", "so you've heard the terms earlier called adsb out and adbs in so adsb out is you can just have the pure function of transmitting your information", "the new services that could be provided is basically expanding our service volume", "so today radars have floors and they don't see below the floors in places like alaska", "we learned that we can't see below the radar", "you can basically do them procedural separation with adsb and the way we deploy the infrastructure", "adsb out can now feed the air traffic controllers where they could provide air traffic control separation services so that's an example of just utilizing adsb out", "other examples of of applications for adsb out would be search and rescue", "so there's definitely an improvement in that in that case in the case of emery riddle they could use it to strictly for collecting the data on the ground and then replaying it for looking at how their student pilots are doing and and use it for training purposes", "now you bring it to the next level", "adsb in is if i'm transmitting out information that's an enabler for other aircraft to receive it and display it", "and that's where you get that increased situational awareness that we were just talking about", "so not only can you see traffic but now we have the opportunity to uplink weather to the cockpit", "and so you're talking about the adsb in components and it's essentially providing more information into the cockpit to increase the situational awareness which translates into safety", "thank you mr chairman can i carry on benny you talking over our head again but what i'm looking for is a handheld unit one thousand two hundred and ninety five out in the end", "it's certainly possible", "this is the blackberry sitting out there on the ground national airport looking at the weather over montebello knowing exactly what's going on in spite of what the guy in the front is telling us", "and this kind of technology given competition is absolutely in my opinion if handled properly again because people want it because mr kaffle odyssey and other manufacturers have a two hundred and twenty thousand customer base that they want to sell to", "that's what i am anticipating that we want to do but again the various ways that we can incentivize folks to equip in aopa was talking during the break period about ways that we can use the system more effectively", "and my question for you and mr kaffle odyssey is under the contract there's it doesn't speak directly to the fact if you want another unit in grand rapids a ground station and they don't have one what would be the process and does the contract allow for that increased coverage using the same alias and all that routine and we need it faa can you help us how would you deal with that under the contract so the contract was set up in a very flexible manner", "two things that that occurred this year was in some of the reauthorization language", "there was discussion about using airport improvement funds for airports to acquire the ground infrastructure", "what that does is provide the the expansion of our ground infrastructure beyond our baseline", "it also would accommodate possibilities of acquiring the radios that you would use on vehicles such as your fire trucks and safety vehicles", "and then the contract has in it what we call generic service volumes", "and so we'd be able to use funds from other sources to essentially purchase this capability", "and then we can we have multiple ways of taking the airport improvement funds and funneling it through this contract vehicle so that you can open up new service volumes", "so two hundred and twenty thousand customers just went almost into the infinity", "i mean basically in terms of users and of course for a ground vehicle you wouldn't have the same requirements in multifunction display", "i was giving mr petra a hard time about high definition tv", "i don't have one of those i don't know how to work it but somebody you know you don't need a multifunction display in your pickup truck", "it's on the airport but if you want it you can put it there", "so folks that are a sport pilots and things like that they should be able to transmit for a very inexpensive figure", "everybody agree with that and again mr bradley we have not forgotten that we the chairman was absolutely correct", "we gotta have everybody on board if the general public and that susan involved here is going to benefit to the maximum amount", "i don't know where the clock is going up or down", "i yield back mr chairman", "i thank the gentleman just a final question for mr scovel and i guess to maybe mr campus hutto maybe you can comment as well", "mr scovel in your written testimony you have a chart in here table one adsb key milestones", "and of course you have project completion date october two thousand and seven for the nprm issued and second is february of two thousand and eight critical design review for the ground system and then august of eight the key side initial operating capacity of broadcast at fort myers", "from your standpoint when should the faa when is the next major project or the next major step in the completion of adsb that the faa needs to be watching carefully and this subcommittee needs to be watching carefully to see if in fact the contract a contractor is performing as the contract calls for", "mr chairman i'd pick the very first item that you mentioned off the list that appears in the chart in our written testimony the notice of proposed rule making was issued a short while ago", "the comments to that rule are due from industry in early january", "those comments are should give us a pretty good indication of how industry views the longterm prospects for this program", "we know and faa itself has identified for us as it in its view its primary risk being user acceptance and aircraft equipage", "if those comments in response to the notice of proposed rulemaking come back and really hit that point hard and pounded home", "then we will know that adsb has a an uphill that faa has an uphill job in properly executing the contract", "we were confident that industry recognizes the potential but it's rather the timetable the mandate and the articulation of the user benefits longterm which really will result from adsb in we should see some of those indications in their comments to the proposed rule", "we in the legislation that we passed out of the house hr two thousand eight hundred and eighty one in that legislation we asked the igs office to submit an annual report to the congress concerning adsb in and i'm wondering when is the next scheduled report that you are to submit to the congress on adsb well i'll need to check with my staff sir and get back to you on that", "i don't have it readily available", "we are certainly prepared and look forward to meeting the committee's requests", "i thank you mr hayes if you have further questions i'd be happy to allow you more time", "thanks mr chairman", "i think it would be very instructive for those of us who remain for this video to be shown it graphically demonstrates the space and the time savings involved in adsb so if you wouldn't mind", "and the other thing is when i was in alaska the last time and is it dan hill in alaska vinny that's supervisor that anchorage or jim hill jim hill he took me through and met with the controllers and the supervisors and the faa", "it was fascinating because the test area initially is in bethel alaska", "if you will put a map of alaska up and your mind is a huge area in the yukon and kuskokwim delta area tremendous amount of fishing a lot of airplanes fish bonding", "one of the controllers brother works there in an airplane", "so the combination of the controller seeing it from the inside and the brother with the airplane and the difference in time with the airplane it's equipped and being able to land on a low visibility conditions was dramatic so these are real world examples", "and again where we're an uncontrolled airspace like mr", "salazar was talking about in colorado i mean it gives you a shot in the arm not a nice scar shot just a shot in the arm", "and i think this would be very helpful with could you run that for as many and tell us what you're showing us", "okay where you're looking at is basically the the airspace that's considered oceanic as you look at that that light shaded blue area that's about a hundreds a thousand square miles of what we call oceanic airspace", "and so as you see aircraft leaving either out of mexico what you're seeing is that's radar coverage up to the light blue area once they go into that light blue area what we do is we sanitize the airspace around the aircraft because we really don't have any surveillance capability", "so that that is about one hundred and twenty miles behind an aircraft and in fifty miles on either side of it", "so that's a fairly large volume of airspace", "that's considered sanitized from a safety perspective", "that's that's great but you know we could make better use of that airspace", "so as as they approach on the united states coast you'll also notice that we pick them up and radar coverage", "so this gives you an example of you know the capacity constrained by our separation standards as a function of you know keeping safe separation between the aircraft", "and then the point out there's also a whole lot of low altitude activity going on and it you know it goes pretty far out as well cause they're doing deep oil exploration", "so there's a lot of platforms on the base underneath this and we'd like to exploit those platforms that deploy our adsb infrastructure and again that's something we could not accomplish by with radars", "so we have these nice tight you know small units that can be deployed on the on the oil platforms providing services", "now that you can see that we can clearly put five miles separation", "so you've increased capacity you reduce ground delays you provide surveillance not only for the high altitude but you also providing it for the low altitude", "so now we can provide or extend our surveillance capabilities off shore two hundred miles out and provide the helicopter operators with surveillance", "so as i mentioned this was kind of a winwin situation", "we work closely with the helicopter associations in national to get access to those platforms in kind contributions from them are providing the transportation the electricity the telecommunications and the space", "and that's probably one of the most highly priced real estate in the world is getting access on those platforms", "so worked out to be a pretty good deal where they gave us access", "we were able to deploy our infrastructure or we'll be able to deploy our infrastructure", "it'll give us high altitude capability and low altitude capability", "and you can do that in other places where you don't have radar as well", "that's correct", "pacific atlantic colorado alaska", "absolutely", "very good mr ellers any other comment or question", "as soon as they get to down to five hundred bucks i'll be up first in line to buy one but i first have to buy the airplane to", "but we thank all of you for being here to testify and to answer our questions", "this is an issue that we will be following very closely as i know the inspector general when the faa will and we of course all have the same goal in mind and that is to get the system up and running implemented in and get the maximum use of it is early as we possibly can", "the faa quite frankly not only this administration but previous administrations they do not have the best track record in following through on contracts and monitoring them", "we hope that that will not be the case with itt and with the adsb and it will be the responsibility of the faa to monitor it to make sure that itt is performing", "it will be our responsibility in this sub committee to provide aggressive oversight to make certain that the contract is being followed and implemented as it is spelled out", "and to make certain that the faa is providing the right oversight as well", "so with that again we thank the witnesses and the subcommittee stance adjourn"], "name": ["gov.house.hbs.hrs03TRN2167_071017b.2/gov_DOT_house_DOT_hbs_DOT_hrs03TRN2167_071017b_DOT_2/hrs03TRN2167_071017b_DOT_2_DOT_flac_00000.flac", 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8173, 3520, 1900, 3820, 5110, 2233, 6100, 19983, 19300, 7950, 4293, 2203, 1713, 5831, 6960, 10350, 3540, 2210, 7000, 4030, 12950, 15340, 10170, 9130, 1710, 2760, 6340, 9780, 4600, 3690, 4780, 1331, 1000], "label": ["trying to pull them back a little bit", "lastly i just want to touch on osha", "osha has in the past been somewhat collaborative in how they work with employers to ensure job site safety", "but they have very publicly advertised a much different approach which is really enforcement driven", "they're focusing on finding work site violations and issuing substantial fines instead of working collaboratively with us as employers to promote the overall safety of our workplaces", "this is pretty clear in the construction industry specifically", "this new approach is just another costly burden that we as a business have to deal with", "and it really creates a level of financial uncertainty for us that really requires us to hold back in terms of any sort of expansion", "the other issue is right now when osha finds a violation on a work site only the employer is fined for that violation", "i would encourage osha to look for collaborative ways to work with employers and employees who do have a level of responsibility in their own safety and the safety of those who they work with to come up with programs that will help to encourage that level of safety", "creating those types of programs instead of seeking to financially cripple businesses to coerce safety", "really i believe would result in safer workplaces overall", "so i would encourage congress again to look at ways to help osha to return to their collaborative and cooperative spirit of working with employers instead of the punitive approach that they are currently taking", "again i want to thank you for the opportunity to share some of these issues", "i do just want to point out vice chairwoman berkel you're my congressional representative and i'm thrilled that you are", "and i remember in your campaign you ran on the statement that government does not create jobs business does", "and it really is paramount that government realize that they are there to create the type of environment that we as businesses need to grow and prosper and contribute to the economy", "and i can't thank you enough for allowing us to bring some of these things to light in hopes that we can resolve them and work together to help to restore our economy", "so thank you very much for the opportunity to be here today", "thank you very much for your comments", "mr pollock", "good morning", "good morning and thank you for inviting me", "i'm the president of optimation technology which is a privately held esop owned company", "and we are in the business of designing and building factories", "so that puts us in the manufacturing sector", "during the period from two thousand to late two thousand and eight we grew the company from fifty employees to three hundred and fifty employees", "what we have discovered is that even when manufacturing isn't as strong as it could be if you have good automation and good tools that you can keep competitive manufacturing going in the united states", "and if you look at the statistic of course you know that monroe county is a great exporter of all kinds of manufactured goods around the world", "we can manufacture at optimation things which are sold competitively all over china and taiwan and japan and korea and singapore and other places", "so it is a good place to be here", "the difficulty as you've asked us to talk about is what is the government doing to hold us back that's what i like to talk about a bit today", "i can remember distinctly the morning of july 12th two thousand and ten and that was the morning i came into work early as usual ready to get going", "i opened my mail from the day before and there was a registered letter there from the department of labor the us department of labor", "and in the letter they had lots of big words and they talk about administration and enforcement and title one and how that they were established there to make sure that compliance was held", "now it's not only the case that there's plenty of compliance issues going on at the federal level there's lots of audits going on at the federal level", "this letter was announcing an audit of the optimation technology medical health care plan", "the secretary shall have the power in order to determine which person if any person has violated or is about to violate any provision of the title of a regulation", "now when i read that basically what it said was that they were there coming to audit our health care plan", "and that we had seven days to produce twenty eight documents and answer four pages of questions", "and of course we buy the health care plan from mvp or excellus", "we don't create the health care plan", "but now we have to take all the books read through become experts of the health care plan", "and we have seven days to respond to this or we're going to be subpoenaed in violation", "we asked for an extension", "we were told that three days was the maximum extension you could have", "now at that point in time when i got that letter i will be honest with you that was the first time i actually seriously considered throwing in the towel", "and i sent an email to my vice president saying it's really not worth it we should just give it up", "this letter was the seventh audit we have received from a governmental agency in two thousand and ten", "and we're only in july", "we were in the middle of an irs audit that had begun in may", "and when the irs auditor arrived i said to him first thing we gave him forty thousand pages of transaction files", "so he could peruse through and start looking for things", "how long are you going to be here he said six months", "and then began we gave him an office", "we gave him a coffee", "we moved him in", "began the ordeal", "every day i go down and he would ask questions and we produce more documents", "i will say at the end of the irs audit whilst partway through i thought we were almost wrapping up", "and he said no we've talked this over we'd like to audit another tax year", "they did stay for five and a half months", "at which point in time we got a letter from them which said that there were no findings and that everything was fine", "and in truth we got through the department of labor audit as well", "and all the other audits", "we had no fines and no punitive actions", "and in truth these audits were put there really in compliance issues", "they may have been looking to find money as becky has implied but they didn't find anything from us", "we are very good at responding to audits", "we are very good at staying in compliance", "we're very good at creating jobs and creating factories as well", "but when our energy is sucked off to do things which are counterproductive to the business essentially audits are just there to poke around and see what you've done wrong", "and there's a mindset that's put into these auditors as they're trained that businesses are essentially criminals", "they must be doing something wrong", "they must be abusing their employees", "otherwise how could they be so successful and i'll tell you that the reason we are successful is because our employees have my back all day every day", "and they do double and triple and quadruple what anybody would ever even consider reasonable in order to maintain the company", "but we have to deal with the department of labor", "and these are at the state level of course as well as the federal level with the irs", "the risks of health care with 401k audits with esop audits with the census bureau sending endless forms to be filled out under penalty if you don't", "with osha and other regulations sarbanes actually has lowered down to very very small businesses", "we hired two accounting firms", "one to provide counsel so that we can make sure we're in compliance when the audit firm comes in", "and then we have to have the two firms duke it out is what really says in the regulation", "so it isn't a simple business running a small business anymore", "i estimate that even on that irs audit myself last year i spent two hundred hours of my own time", "if that time had been freed up to do marketing and sales and work with clients we could have created six eight ten additional jobs instead of just dodging government bullets", "so i think the first piece that has to come down you have to look at every regulation and say is this reasonable is it practical but then above and beyond that how many others have been hired how large has the government bureaucracy been grown in terms of irs and osha and other people in order to force compliance", "and how much of that money is being spent as counterproductive to growing the economy because not only are those people sucking off of tax dollars in order to get their paychecks", "they are also sucking off of our backs and taking us away from the opportunity to grow our own companies and do other things", "i appreciate your listening to us", "i don't have any great expectations but we're going to survive one way or the other", "we don't ask for handouts", "we're not asking for support above and beyond", "let's be a little practical about how we go about this", "thank you very much", "and thank you to all three of our witnesses this morning for your very compelling comments", "we have had a number of these hearings down in washington dc and i have been so and i know my colleague mr kelly as well we've been so profoundly affected when you listen to a group of witnesses who have run small businesses", "and the question was asked to all of them if you knew now what you if you knew then what you know now regarding regulations and all of the impediments to job creation would you have gone into business and would you have done what you've done and each one of the members of that panel said no we would not", "and so we have reached a point in this country and when i listened to your testimony mr pollock what you went through with all of your audits we begin to wonder what's happened to the united states of america and our free enterprise system and our capitalist system where we have an understanding that the government can create jobs", "it is the private sector excuse me it's the private sector that is going to get this economy back on track", "it's the private sector that does the job hirings and expands businesses and buys more equipment and improves their technology", "so i want to tell you that this subcommittee and our entire oversight government reform committee is committed to doing that", "to recognizing and understanding the impediments that stand in the way of businesses and their success", "and we will do everything in our power to help small businesses do what they do best", "and that is to create and grow a business", "to work hard and be successful", "because that's the american way", "and that's the american dream for why many of you have gone into business", "so with that i would just like to talk a little bit about your testimony", "and then so i will i'd like to just start with the same question to all of you", "whether or not you would be in this business if you knew now what you if you knew then what you know now", "you can all answer and you can start", "sure", "the answer is yes i would", "and really the rewarding part is the employees in the company team", "i mean everybody needs jobs", "and if i can be a catalyst to help that happen then i would", "thank you", "well i am not the company owner actually but i'll speak for him", "and i don't think that he would not be an owner of a business simply because of the ability that being a business owner allows you to contribute to your overall community through job creation and things like that", "i think we as a company are very proud of what we do", "we're just looking for some assistance in making it a little easier to do what we do", "i think many people involved in small business are survivors and very creative and they're entrepreneurial", "and that's why they're doing what they're doing", "so certainly no matter the odds i think most would attempt to be successful", "as the odds are stacked against them or those that are actually are successful become fewer and fewer", "and certainly the migration of manufacturing jobs overseas in this country is appalling", "and certainly manufacturing can be profitable and it can grow in this country", "but we have to have some fortitude and we have to have some policies that help support that", "because manufacturing jobs are really generate on the order of seven other jobs", "once they're here they're highpaying optimex has high paying jobs", "these are career jobs", "you can have cars put your kids to college those types of things and they're not all gone", "they are here and they're actually growing", "but we have to support that", "and it's not we are not the adversary", "and the adversary is the global market space", "and we were competing against countries with policies that make it very easy to manufacture", "and i certainly would be i can speak for myself and my partner we would absolutely do what we're doing with optimex in spite of whatever the rules were how ridiculous they were", "but we created benefits to our growth and we may not be successful but that's just the nature of an entrepreneur", "not because we're being asked to do it", "thank you", "i just do want to comment mr pollock if this gives you any peace of mind the continual resolution that we voted on last week did stop the irs from hiring ten thousand additional employees", "so we were able to defer those positions", "thank you", "with that i'll yield my colleague mr kelly", "thank you chairwoman", "mr medina i think it's important because the general public doesn't understand what we're doing", "that's what i've done for a living", "if somebody asked me two years ago would you be in congress i'd say absolutely not i'm too busy raising my family and running my business", "so i have a little bit of an idea what it's like to deal with osha and everybody else that comes into our business that has absolutely no investment but is a partner that we really don't need to have on our back", "this itar because i've talked to other people in the same type of businesses", "kind of walk us through what itar is and what you have to do in order to compete and why it makes it so difficult for you", "firm in a foreign land beyond list", "if we are not on the list it's fine", "but most countries are on the list", "so israel i thought they're on the list", "when you define explain what the list is", "the list is now puts you to another list of questions that you now have to go and process", "this is for we're only at the manufactures since we quote tanks so we went about twenty five minimum to quote", "we now have to decide if we want to quote something", "so anyway there's a process so now you have to decide if you want to do the work on seventy five of inquiries that you know your not going to win", "so if this is real now i have to look at go through the list and ask questions on what is the use of this content so we have to go to our customer and in the technology space a lot of times they don't want to tell you because it's repetitive information", "they have to say what are you using this for what's the end product who's your customers", "they're wanting to know the customer who's your customer and what country are they in and what are they putting it in", "that's kind of ridiculous", "the idea is that if you would because most people don't understand this the idea is at the end of the assembly this product could possibly be used by a terrorist country or be used in a military special right so you're responsible for every little piece that goes out somewhere into the world as to finding out where its actual end use is going to be", "is that a correct example that's correct okay", "an example of that could be that it goes into a laser welding machine that is made in france only to be sold to china and use laser welding equipment to make weapons", "so that's if you just draw the dots everything goes everywhere", "so it's like well ultimately you can make weapons with a lot of things", "you need rubber bands to hold the paper just where do you stop and so you go through that prep", "you ask those questions you go back and forth to intimidate your customer and make them feel like they're having to divulge information they don't want to give you", "and then you book the job", "if you think it's oh then you can't actually get the license for it until you get the order", "and then once you get the order you then go on and ask for permission to sell if they're on that list", "and they can say no", "and it takes four weeks", "so meanwhile you've gone through the whole dance of going back and forth you've done the bid you somehow miraculous got an order they have to wait to see if you can move on the order", "you don't have to wait till you can move on the order", "and then they can say no", "so meanwhile your customer has gone eight weeks through a cycle and have to start over again because the us government said that this manufacturer could not sell this to you", "and how they make the decisions about what you can sell and what you can't i really have no idea", "and it's an absolute crapshoot", "we have decided we do almost twenty million worth of business a year", "we do almost zero overseas and we could sell overseas we get inquiries all the time", "and we've said no because we don't want to have to deal with the government or the uncertainty of the government", "it takes way too much extra work on our end", "and so it would probably five million worth of business a year that we're just turning our back on because of it", "what agency do you work with this who is responsible for the itar who does it go through it's the department of commerce or the", "oh there's a lot of them i know it's hard", "yeah i'm sorry", "i'll tell you what i was really fresh on this a year and a half two years ago when we decided not to do this", "because we're not doing it it's out of my mind and i'm into growth in the domestic market space", "and i think the bottom line of this whole thing is you're in a business that you have an opportunity to sell a certain product or pieces for a product that's going to be assembled", "you now have because of this overreach have decided to not even bid that business it's not worth the aggravation", "i would assume that in like everything else in business time is of the essence", "the process you have to go through would be a lot different than maybe a foreign competitor would have to go through", "and plus waiting for the licensing waiting for the okay", "it's just better for you", "and see it's the old story don't worry about the mule just load the wagon", "i think at this time they're most happy to walk away", "excuse me but i appreciate your testimony and i gotta tell you the american public really has absolutely no idea what you're going through on this", "not only what you're going through with itar but the other regulations", "i think that's the one thing that we're finding out on a daily basis that we have to find some way of amplifying this problem so that people understand this isn't just you coming here and complaining because you can't compete", "you're coming here and talking about the situation that makes it impossible for you to compete", "and unfortunately it's your own country", "so i appreciate you", "if i could add one more thing there's another part to that restriction as to employment", "we had one hundred and thirty people working at optimex and one was a parttime consultant canadian", "because that person did not have a green card and was not a us citizen we had to put in lock cabinets and create a whole infrastructure of security for this dangerous canadian consultant that we had working otherwise we're in violation", "the canadian quit because she didn't feel it was appropriate that we go through all that expense in order to keep her employed", "and now most companies in technology manufacturing companies will not hire anyone who does not have a green card or is a us citizen", "there are a lot of very smart people who don't have green cards or not us citizens that could really help generate wealth in this country that we can't hire because we would have to put these infrastructures in", "and it's most technology manufacturers certainly in optics and many machine shops and other places do some level of defense work", "and if you do some level of defense work you have this other barrier now that's in place", "so there's a lot of cost around this", "i would understand the reason for it", "there is certainly there's reasons for it but the way it's structured is so ridiculous it's actually impeding us export", "yeah i have friends in meadville to do the same thing and they're going through the same process and the same problems", "but i think what really disturbs all of us is who is it that makes up these lists and what's the criteria for somebody being on the list or not being on the list", "and it would be like me selling a car and before i sell the car i'd have to ask that person is there any time in the future that you think anybody could possibly be getting in or out of this car that could maybe be a problem for the country and if i couldn't answer that i couldn't sell the car", "so really i get it", "and i got to tell you it is the scope of overreach and over involvement that's killing all of us", "so i appreciate it", "please don't give up don't give up on us", "we're not going to quit till get it fixed", "thank you", "thank you all very much", "i have one last question then i'm not sure if you have anything left", "i do want to ask ms spiking", "i yield go ahead i'll yield to you", "and i know right now because of the events in wisconsin and around the country there's a renewed interest in and often has become too polarizing between organized labor and the private sector", "and i think that that's done a tremendous disservice to both sides", "and i would certainly think that for what we're interested in i got to tell you i have friends on both sides of it", "i have friends that do both", "the pla's are something that a lot of people don't understand", "i mean the people understand davisbacon", "the fact i think bacon is a republican from new york and davis was a republican from pennsylvania", "so when people say come on these republicans don't like unions", "those are the two guys that started it and they're both republicans", "but as we go forward and i think we would all agree that bargaining is part of the practice but bankrupting that entity is not", "and if you can cause i know you're very concerned", "and now richard your testimony with the pla's explain a little bit what that does to you and your ability to bid on a job", "you can bid a job using davisbacon but with the pla's that's a little different that's more exclusive is it not that's correct", "and in fact if we do bid a job that is a federal job we're required by law to follow davisbacon rules which in essence means that we're paying union scale wages and benefits", "and the whole principle of course behind davisbacon was to level the playing field if you will from a wage standpoint", "so when we bid and perform work at the federal level we do pay davisbacon wages", "you don't need a pla to level the playing field from a wage standpoint because you already have davisbacon or if we're talking new york state we have new york state prevailing wage", "a pla literally as i said in my testimony tells me that i cannot use my own workers", "and quite frankly we have crews that are supervised by very experienced foreman who work with these people day in and day out", "they develop processes and procedures to make us the most effective and cost effective contractor that we can be", "and when we have to put up people who have absolutely no vested interest in the success of our business and in fact have a vested interest in the shutting down of our business to eliminate us as competition to their signatory contractors", "i mean it's kind of like asking me to swim through a pool of alligators and hope i don't get bit", "you know it's ridiculous", "and i will honestly tell you that if we see pla language in a bid we aren't going to take the time to even bid it", "can we bid it absolutely we can", "but it sets up a scenario that from a business standpoint is completely and utterly impractical for us", "so we close the specifications and we throw them in the garbage", "and unfortunately that takes away opportunities from our current employees and takes away our opportunity to grow our business using taxpayer funded projects to do it", "correct", "can i comment on that as well sure", "we like radiac are a nonunion contractor", "we have over two hundred journeymen", "we have a new york state certified apprenticeship program", "where we're bringing up twenty four young men and women into the trades", "we're one of nine out of a hundred and something apprenticeship programs that's nonunion in new york state", "and we're one of the others", "and our principle and practice based on the regulations is that we simply do not bid any governmental jobs whether they're local state or federal we find our business entirely elsewhere because the compliance issues are immense", "it's not that we couldn't do it", "it's just that it's not costeffective to stay in line", "and in truth every single governmental job that we've ever done someone has guaranteed that we were audited", "the time spent was pretty humongous", "and so we backed away from it", "so our position maybe is different than theirs but similar we just find other work", "and we do as well", "but quite frankly in this economy the private sector has not been building as much as they used to", "so in many cases we're forced to look to markets that we might otherwise avoid simply to stay in business", "and the other thing if you would just comment briefly because i've been through osha audits and again it comes down to the public's awareness of what these mean", "and i've always been a little bit disappointed", "i've been through some msha reports", "remedial action would be something in my mind", "if you find something wrong in my workplace i want to make sure it's safe for my guys", "one of the things that our guys are supposed to wear if a car's up in the air they're supposed to wear a hardhat and goggles", "and again i don't know that you can mandate or legislate common sense in the workplace", "i think you can set guidelines but at the end of the day i don't know how you get one of the people that works for you to actually look out for their own good", "so having said that the remedial process is the one that i think is lacking in all these audits", "and we used to have something called the voluntary protection plan which makes sense when you sit down and you talk about these possible problems and how i would fix them", "but i know with msha when they come in and they do an audit most of these things there's no costbenefit analysis", "it's just this is wrong this is wrong this is wrong", "fine fine fine", "and it doesn't i don't think it accomplishes the same type of effect that the insurance company coming in trying to help you to eliminate possible losses or dangerous situations in your business too because they're actually there to do something with you to fix it", "i get the feeling when i hear folks talk that the government comes in the idea isn't to fix it it's to fine you", "so let me know am i reading this wrong in my little corner of the world i knew it was right", "you're reading it exactly correctly", "in fact and i will tell you that we recently had an osha inspector show up on one of our job sites", "this is an osha inspector that we have seen on other job sites", "and you're absolutely correct", "as an employer safety is paramount to us", "we want to make sure that every one of our people goes home every night to their family", "nothing is more important to us", "we had an osha inspector who has been on a number of job sites and we are a very safe contractor", "we do not have a lot of issues but this osha inspector confided in us that the directive from above from washington dc is that these inspectors are to go onto job sites and find violations that can result in fines", "because my understanding is that it's because osha is sort of selffunding and they need to generate the revenue to support all these additional inspectors and things that they have decided will be their approach to safety as opposed to the programs like the vpp program and things like that", "so it's a complete reversal from quite frankly what osha used to be in terms of being a collaborative agency", "they are now simply looking for ways to generate revenue", "to me that's counterproductive", "thank you", "we had osha in and we did hear their testimony and we were able to ask them the questions", "and we were really struck by the fact that one of the people one of the members from osha was there", "and he had mentioned the fact that employers will comply with osha regulations in order to prevent a visit because they fear osha going onsite to visit their business", "and i said to him fear this is the united states of america", "we shouldn't be fearing government agencies", "we should be working with them as you said that to find to ensure safe workplaces for our employees", "no one cares more about the employees than the employers not osha but the employers", "so we were struck by the fact that it has changed from being a partnership where we're both trying to work together to ensure safety to this punitive trying to look for and find offenses", "but i do think to a certain degree it goes back to the mentality that seems to be pervasive in government now that employers are bad and they are looking to profit on the backs of their workers at any cost", "and i think until we change that mindset quite frankly partnerships and collaboration between government and business is going to be hard to accomplish", "well then i think a good way to end our first panel here is to say to you to all of you and to all of the businesses in upstate new york that we appreciate you", "we appreciate your sacrifice", "we appreciate your entrepreneurial spirit", "we know that you're the job creators and we hope you'll work with us to continue giving us the information we need", "so we can go back to washington and begin to create an environment where businesses can do well can be successful and not be penalized for all of their hard work and their efforts", "i want to thank of all three of you on behalf of mr kelly and myself", 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3980, 11100, 9440, 9910, 14180, 5403, 4430, 2451, 1039, 1928], "label": ["first is mr andrew reeves who is the owner of reeves farms welcome and thank you for being here today", "nancy hourigan is the owner of hourigan's dairy farm", "welcome and thank you for coming this afternoon", "and mr tom de maree is the owner of de maree fruit farm thank you very much for being here", "as is the custom of the committee we'll ask you to please stand and be sworn in", "please please raise your right hand", "do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth please let the record reflect that the witnesses answered in the affirmative thank you", "again we'll have each panelists give their opening statement and then we'll take some time to ask questions", "mr reeves if you would start thank you", "thank you", "distinguished members of the committee on oversight and government reforms help committee and regulatory affairs oversight government spending", "thank you for the opportunity to testify in today's hearing", "if i could interrupt can you just move the microphone a little bit closer so we can hear your testimony", "this any better that's better thank you", "agriculture is the largest industry in new york", "maybe the largest industry left in the united states", "in order for agriculture to continue to thrive there must be a streamlined process to bring seasonal temporary labor when necessary", "the h2a program was supposed to be a tool for the american farmers put in place by congress to expedite a legal temporary workforce", "this program was supposed to allow farmers to develop a good business plan which ensures a plentiful supply of top quality produce without having to worry about a workforce", "all of their businesses are able to grow and shrink markets in production depending on demand", "if a worker leaves for any reason ten others are always ready to fill the void immediately", "these businesses are based on these variables", "if you hire an american recruit for temporary labor they will be looking for another job with benefits and fulltime not seasonal status", "once another opportunity becomes available they leave or don't show up for work one day", "as a result you must spend an average of six hundred and fifty per worker and begin a one thousand and twelve week process to replace them with the h2a program the h2a program should extend the same freedoms to american farmers as congress originally intended they should be able to expedite legal foreign workers after exhausting all legal local employment opportunities and options in the existing state", "if an h2a certification has been granted in a neighboring state this would mean neighboring states have a shortage of eligible farm workers i believe to have me advertise in these neighboring states and continue the recruiting process throughout half the life cycle of my contract period is ridiculous", "for my farm not to be able to ask for experience when hiring is ridiculous for me not to be able to ask for production standards without the challenge from new york or the us department of labor is ridiculous", "any other business would not and could not operate in the parameters now set by the present h2a law", "the next problem that needs changing with the program is the length of the process", "we used to be able to send an application to the state and chicago for processing at the same time", "we now send out one to the state first and once they finish the process we then have the necessary order number to now move on to chicago with a different form", "many times the state will approve something but the us department of labor will reject an example is work production standards new york state will allow them but the us department of labor won't", "they get rejected and thrown back where either an appeal is necessary or remove the standards and move on", "if you appeal you have an eighty two success rate but you have put your process behind schedule", "if you choose to appeal the us department of labor will no longer certify your order within thirty days of your date of need", "new york state will not let me advertise asking for resumes but the us department of labor says i can", "after we have survived everything to this point we now have to keep records of all applicants who have requested an interview or job we must document this for future audits and accept all applicants throughout half the term of the work contract because the job posting goes on a national site we're bombarded with applications such as a fishing camp cook with a degree in geography wanting to bop in and work for the month of may on his way to alaska in june", "he must know more about the free housing first", "how about the family of eastern europeans asking if they can move the whole family here how about the lpn wanting a job because she lost her license and needs a job", "however she won't work weekends how about the lady from manila how about the kid from auburn wanting a job loading", "how about berl asking what do i mean about resume", "these are some of the example of resumes i deal with", "how about the phd from california who lost his job and applied dr kulzeemalmen these are all lawsuits and possible litigations looming on the horizon because our present system encourages it", "now if everything is fine we have thirty days or less to finish the process we now move from overnight replies from government to snail mail homeland security claims to turn your petition requests around in thirty four days", "this is not true if you overnight your i129 to california they stamp it on the day they receive it or the day after a received letter with a next day stamp on it comes to you after the check has cleared", "usually the process with no problems takes one thousand two hundred and fourteen days from beginning to end we now have one thousand five hundred and eighteen days left", "under the old process we could block schedule groups when the order had wac number now we must wait until the acceptance comes next we must pay for visa's before we can schedule interviews we must email a request to csc in order to get permission to access a site to schedule interviews this takes five days if you make no mistakes in the requesting process", "if you make a mistake you will be notified in five days of the mistake and you redo it in five more days you will receive access or another problem the site lets you electronically schedule just fill out a spreadsheet and email i suggest email the electronic system is on it's third spreadsheet and if there is a specific problem you will receive a specific direction back with the email schedule with the electronic system you will receive an error list without a clue of where to begin", "there are no directions as to how the new system works you attempt to understand and operate it", "if you fail or have a problem forget it you will receive an email answer which will never answer the question you asked", "i had a problem with an order which eighteen emails were not answered eleven calls were not returned", "one day during lunch i found another csc branch with names and numbers a human resources manager from another division was able to make proper contact to their other division for me he was amazed how it took four calls to resolve the issue so we thought", "when my workers interviewed it still required a call to consulate to inform them the order schedule and farm name were wrong", "they as usual were very helpful", "the next issue i have with the h2a program is it's adverse effects wage rate of one thousand and twenty five per hour", "this is a fifteen increase in labor cost from the program revamp during the past administration", "the rate went up in these times from one thousand and sixteen", "this is an unrealistic wage for workers considered unskilled not requiring any previous experience and work standards we pay for visa's we pay for food and travel both ways we take workers to the store", "we must guarantee at least thirty four of the total hours in the contract we must provide housing and utilities at no additional cost no taxes or social security are deducted many portions of their jobs offer them an opportunity to earn even more when performing piece work", "when your slower workers are guaranteed a minimum of one thousand and twenty five an hour for piece work your faster workers make considerably more because your production minimum standards are based on the slower workers", "this is the reason we quit growing green and yellow beans reduce acreage on peas quit growing snow peas and wouldn't raise blueberries if they weren't organic and brought a higher price", "lack of consistency is my final complaint with the program", "i can send an i129 with only one copy and get an acceptance", "i've had a customer do the same and he sent he was sent an approval request and a copy to send another copy and four hundred and four with another form or they may not be able to schedule appointments in consulate", "i have used production standards and then had customers denied standards i've been told to hire puerto ricans and i have asked them to interview and submit a resume", "i recently talked to a large orchard producer from virginia", "their farm hires one hundred and seventy eight h2a workers last year they were forced to use a puerto rican labor force because of problems with the h2a in jamaica", "i have the same labor reporting system as the grower", "my vendor verified the orchard production was half last year of other years this farmer was asking me if there was any way around the puerto rican labor situation", "he said if he has to use puerto rican workers this year he will have an auction how can you expect to tell a business owner how he has to run his business", "no other business suffers these restrictions", "now i'll briefly review areas i believe need changed", "blow up form is the easiest apply to the state and us department of labor at the same time", "allow standards and experience to be included in job requirements revamp the recruitment process", "why advertise in a state which already has been approved for h2a workers reduce the recruitment period until the time the h2a workers arrive on the farm", "if the number of workers on an order reduce because of referrals these slots should remain open so the farmer can fall back on them if the referral workers don't work out or leave", "introduce a form of arbitration to resolve issues", "legal service attorney's constantly look for areas to litigate the thirty day rule form the us department of labor is not adequate and encourages farmers to lie about their need date because the process cannot be completed excuse me in thirty days", "allow farmer to select where he gets his workforce every other business has that freedom", "speed up the homeland security process or make them tell the truth the us department of labor and the department of state believe in this thirty four day turnaround", "reduce the wage to a realistic level the bush order was the best system thus far", "repair the mess created by the new interview scheduling procedure it was introduced before it was ready and i guarantee it wasn't developed by csc they've always been a great company to work with", "we must include the dairy industry ag jobs is a dead on arrival proposal the change has been morphed into a bad deal for agriculture", "strive for more consistency across the board", "state and us department of labor state health department homeland security department of state", "let the h2a workers pay their own visa fee", "this is non refundable and they should have some skin in the game", "i've aired my grievances and hope i was able to shed some light on the problems of h2a", "ag jobs is not the answer either labor unions and legal service groups that killed the good in this bill already", "i will not endorse any program with amnesty attached", "the amnesty act in one thousand nine hundred and eighty seven was another example of it not working the workers moved up the ladder and left a vacuum which was filled with millions of undocumented workers in the united states", "most of the workers i recruit once spent time illegally in the united states i've convinced them to go back and enter the legal h2a program", "i've convinced not less than ten farmers to convert to legal h2a workers these people should remain at the front of the line", "what we now ask for is a program be developed which will partner with today's agriculture industry and finally address the h2a needs of our dairy industry also", "we need to work this out together for the salvation of the industry this country was built with", "lets once and for all do this together", "once and do it right", "leave the unions and legal service ambulance chasers on the sidelines", "we owe this to an industry already bombarded with new epa and dec regulations every year", "we also have trace back food safety requirements whose costs are all the burden of the farmer presently", "we are at the point of losing our producers if something isn't done", "washington needs to become proactive with this issue", "four different programs in three years are confusing", "the lack of continuity necessary for agribusiness to develop and maintain a long term business plan", "thank you very much for your time and the invitation", "thank you mr reeves mrs hourigan", "thank you for inviting me to testify before you today my name is nancy hourigan", "and i am a member of onondaga county farm bureau and the board of directors of the new york agricultural land trust", "my husband john and i and my son matt work over about eight thousand acres of land in onondaga county and operate a dairy farm", "my family and i are proud of our farm and the time and hard work that we put in to the operation to make it successful and keep it growing", "our heritage and our roots are in the community and our farm", "and we want to see this business succeed at what is our core mission producing healthy local milk for our neighbors and fellow citizens of new york state", "our milk is sold to byrne dairy doesn't get much more local than that", "but the family farm has changed significantly over the years", "as we've had to grow in order to keep up with ever escalating regulatory burdens and a price received for our milk that is at the mercy of global market conditions", "even though our cost factors are particularly influenced by being in a state like new york where all businesses face an unreasonably high cost of taxes energy and labor and regulatory compliance", "while i can and will expand upon some specific topics that are of concern to me the single biggest point that i want to make at this hearing is that the amount of actual time that i and my family have to spend complying with various federal regulations and that has escalated to the point where i spend more time in an office on computer and filing paperwork than i ever did working with the cows the crops and the personnel on the farm", "each and every day i spend filing paperwork to comply with various federal regulations", "and each and every new piece of paper i have to put up on my central posting area on the farm has a cost to it that is profound and can never be recouped", "the cost is my time and my husband's time", "no amount of cows or cropland added to the farm to ensure our financial stability will enable us to recoup that time that we have to spend filing ever increasing paperwork paperwork with various agencies", "i do not believe that each federal agency that we deal with has a comprehensive understanding of what it is like to try to farm in this environment", "i have to meet mandates from the us department of labor wage and hour paperwork the homeland security office i9 forms us department of agriculture conservation and sanitation issues the us department of transportation dot truck numbers hours of service regulations the epa for nutrient management issues as well as the various state compliance issues", "while president obama discussed this issue in his state of the union speech in january i can tell you that on the farm itself we have not felt much much of any impact from a lessening of governmental regulations and paperwork clearly we need to have government engaged in ensuring safety for consumers in the food they purchase the roads they travel on and environment however the current emphasis on simply putting more and more regulations and paperwork on farms and small businesses like mine is out of control", "i will never regain the time i lost and continue to lose in making sure that i am compliant in everything that i have to file", "so how can the federal government help new york state farm families like myself first and foremost just stop imposing new mandates", "follow the spirit of the regulatory review commission that president obama discussed and actually implement the recommendations to reduce the amount of time that i spend filing paperwork", "secondly i would also like to suggest that the federal government wrap up its activity in redirecting farmland protection dollars to new york state", "as stated i serve on the board of directors of new york agricultural land trust it is clear to me that with the vulnerability of new york's farmland to development they are acute by the barriers placed on farmers by the cost of complying with regulatory mandates the existing funds from the united states department of agriculture have not been directed to new york state as they have been to other states where the farmland is not so acutely in danger of being lost to parking lots and housing developments", "when farmland is conserved in the local community not only does the land provide wildlife habitat and improved water quality it also ensures that a locally produced food supply is secured and a family farm can remain with the land", "i would strongly suggest that the formula that drives the allocation of funds to the various states be reviewed", "with an eye towards towards ensuring that farmland that is particularly vulnerable especially on long island in the city of syracuse in the hudson river receive a priority", "thirdly i would like to discuss one issue of the epa that has me very concerned because of the precedent setting nature of the agency's actions", "a section of onondaga county is located in the chesapeake bay watershed my farm is not located within that watershed but the issue is very important to me", "as my family is connected to other farm families who are in the watershed and rely on our farm to provide cow feed and to do custom work in planting for them", "and that allows their farms to prosper and grow", "while i am certainly not opposed to improve to improving water quality in the chesapeake bay it strikes me as odd that all the environmental stewardship practices that i have put in place on my farm and other neighbors have put on their farm were not originally recognized in the epa's overly zealous desire to clean up the bay by imposing strict regulations on agriculture", "on my farm alone we have spent tens of thousands of dollars constructing a nutrient management storage facility and we are a partner in a community digest to provide waste from our farm and several other farms will help generate energy to county facilities", "as a family farmer i and my neighbors care about the environment that we leave for our children", "we are not going to tolerate sloppy behavior nor are we going to fail to do what is right on our farms to protect the environment even when such practices are expensive to implement and are not paid for by the consumer dollar however the epa's over reach on this issue is frightening to me and my fellow farmers as with one single regulation originally proposed in the draft tndl the epa was willing to sacrifice over nine hundred farms in the chesapeake bay watershed", "i am pleased that the state dec and epa in consultation with new york farm bureau and others came to an agreement to accept new york's watershed implementation plan", "but i realize this plan may still impose significant regulatory burdens on some smaller family farms", "so i need to urge you to continue to work for conservation dollars in the next farm bill cycle for the on the farm environmental stewardship measures", "but the main point that i want to make is that knowing that federal government can act this precipitously and unfairly and jeopardize my own and my neighbors farm operation by issuing one poorly thought out regulation makes me lose sleep at night and question the long term ability of my family to keep our farm in operation for the next generation", "the last issue that i want to discuss discuss is the need for a realistic and not clogged with paperwork guest worker program that you have already heard about from mr reeves thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today and present testimony from the farmers perspective of the serious and ever increasing federal barriers to growth i appreciate taking the time to listen to me and your consideration of my own time as a farm family business in new york state to try and reduce the time i spend in compliance cost", "thank you very much mr de maree you're up", "good afternoon i appreciate being given the opportunity to discuss apple industry and labor concerns", "thank you for your attention i am tom de maree and i own and operate a two hundred acre fruit farm in the town of williamson wayne county i'm also the current president of new york state hort society and a past board member of the new york apple growers association", "we grow over one hundred thousand ap one hundred thousand bushels of apples as well as processing peaches and a few other stone fruits", "we also own and operate cold storages on our farm", "six people work full time or part time on our farm an additional twenty nine people depend on the seasonal work available through our farm to support their families", "according to the new york state orchard survey over forty two thousand commercial acres of apples in the state", "in the past twenty years growers have renewed this acreage at about thirty four a year", "more than sixty five of the new york apple acreage is in the southern counties on the south shore of lake ontario", "in the past four years most of the fresh apple growers in these counties have been replanting at a rate of five million one thousand three hundred trees per acre which costs between sixteen six hundred and fifty million thirteen thousand an acre this means that apple growers in these counties over the past four years have invested around forty six million dollars in new apple orchards alone twice this amount is likely to have been invested in farm machinery equipment labor housing and other real estate improvements as well as apple storages packing lines and other profit or marketing facilities over the same period", "our own operation has invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in capital improvements over the past four years", "we spend over five thousand an acre annually growing harvesting and delivering our fruit eighty percent which benefits the local economy this is our sixth year using the h2a program securing h2a labor is expensive and increasingly fraught with government red tape and stress", "the us department of labor and the new york state department of labor in albany are attempting to make this program so difficult that no one would chose to use it", "growers however have almost no choice but to use this program if they wish to secure legal employees skilled enough to perform the required work efficiently and on time", "the labor department tells growers what they must put on the work orders eliminating the experience requirements requiring employers to tolerate employees missing up to five consecutive days of work without notifying an employer in advance how are growers supposed to harvest each apple variety in an optimum quality when the workers can miss work without notifying the employer the department of labor in albany has also been requiring referrers to puerto ricans to be interviewed within ten days when these referred persons often have no experience working on a fruit farm", "growers should not have to argue with or petition dol employees with no practical experience in operating a fruit farm about the experience required for fruit farm employees in a business producing perishable crops", "thousands of dollars were lost in new york fruit farms and their local economies last year because of delays in securing farm labor", "fruit was picked late and had a lower quality plus a lower value the failures of secure labor or the loss of skilled labor during a critical planting crop protection or harvesting operation results in financial losses that are not only jeopardizing farm business but also the local economy", "losses in apple quality jeopardizes both year round and part time employees income", "fruit growers need employees familiar with their particular grades the market requirements those farms are attempting to meet to secure the best possible price for each variety of fruit", "fruit growers do not want to train new employees annually", "they want to retain trained employees", "untrained employees make expensive mistakes that today's businesses cannot afford", "workers also prefer to work with the same farm year after year", "as time goes on there are fewer skilled people who are willing to move from place to place every six hundred and ten weeks to harvest crops as they mature", "given a choice most people would prefer to earn a living in one place clean and dry environment that does not require continuous physical labor", "i know that these issues are difficult and controversial at times but growers must have some assurance that they will have a consistent skilled labor workforce available to them that would be willing to retain trained workers", "congressman slaughter has been recently working as a strong advocate on behalf of growers in contacting the labor department to solve some of these problems", "i would urge you to contact her office to work with her to get the h2a program to be more responsive to the needs", "thank you very much for your time", "thank you very much i thank you to all of our panelists", "i sit here and i listen to your testimonies and i shake my head and i wonder how did we get to this point where you're subject to both the state as well as the federal regulations board i want you to know that we we're sympathetic here and we would like to work with you", "the issue that is recurring and recurring and i hear it from both the agriculture as well as the dairy industry is this h2a program and i would like to ask all of you if you in if you could imagine what the perfect h2a program would look like if you could tell us what that would mean to you and what would and ideal h2a program look like", "to me it would be able to at the same time apply to the state and the federal government same form they virtually ask for the same information it's a federal program so i think the federal department of labor the us department of labor should supersede anything regulated by new york state", "and at the same time homeland security would be your next step if the process takes one thousand two hundred and fourteen days then lets give more than thirty days to process from beginning to end and not lie about it", "what i have to do and i shouldn't say this but i'll tell you what i have to do if i need workers on the first of march i have to turn around and say that i need them in the middle of february the first of february", "because if everything goes well there is no way with the new system from the time i get the certification out of chicago to the time i interview my workers i can do it in thirty days", "and in my presentation you'll see a day breakdown on it it's going to take one thousand two hundred and fourteen days for homeland security", "i'm going to spend the next five days this is if i'm sitting in my chair and as soon as i get a notification i'm on the computer and going to work with scheduling appointments you know there's no day in between", "it's over night stuff everything else", "so the next thing i do is go to csc that day and say hey i want to be able to schedule appointments so what do they do five days later if i ask them properly you know if i miss one number or something like that in five days they'll tell me hey you missed a number", "so then i redo it again with the number and then in five days they'll say okay now you can schedule", "what i need is top to bottom a program developed with the farmers input the people that have to work with it have to make it work we're left away from the table", "i went to a seminar in december in atlanta on the new program the guy that developed this new program for the department of state didn't want to hear anything from anyone this was his deal he knew what he was doing and this was the way all the conflicts were gonna be", "and to sit there in the room we had state we had homeland security there we had department of labor there representatives of the consulate and department of state", "and department of labor couldn't believe when i set up and said what do you mean it takes three or four days for homeland security to process", "it takes twelve days to two weeks and here's two federal branches that said no it doesn't it's thirty four days i said they cheat on their stamp on the form that's how it's thirty four days but it's a one thousand two hundred and fourteen day process and you've got two federal agencies that are working together with this who are unaware of it", "you mentioned in your testimony about the bush administration was there a difference in the standards and now it's changed you mentioned you were at a conference about the change", "the changes three days before president bush left office he did an executive order that changed h2a he rolled back the wage he there were some pluses and minuses to it but it still was the best program yet", "he streamlined the referrals when you have to advertise to take applications he made it where when they hit your farm you don't have to take anymore applications and keep a record of them because all this period of time like seventy five days up to that point his administration felt was adequate time to look for referrals in us work house", "and that was changed actually that was changed three days before he left office and there's been three other changes back and forth since that one so in three years we've had four changes and the funny thing is if you're a farmer how do you turn around and say well i'm gonna h2a this year but what's the law gonna be when i was down in atlanta in december the only thing we were handed out was the agenda for the meeting", "there was not any handout the program south of the border had changed the forms north of the border had changed not one agent or farmer was given anything but the agenda for the meeting because here it was december 6th and they didn't have this program ready to launch january one", "but yet january 10th it took effect", "i mean that's just ridiculous", "have you received any specifics since the january 10th implementation no it's my brothers will tell you that i've lived in my living room on the computer trying to find rules and regulations on where do i get the spreadsheet how do i get the spreadsheet the first the spreadsheet is on it's third copy now the first one i wanted to schedule twenty two workers and i called csc and said your spreadsheet won't work it's not formatted properly to take more than seventeen workers cause five of the twenty two that it would take were formatted properly they told me you don't know what you're talking about cut and paste and come right down through the country names that they had there so i cut and paste thirty three on there and did it electronically and they crashed in the system and it took eighteen emails eleven calls and the problem was once the system made them up we can't sort them out", "and so this was a two and a half week process that should have been three days but at least now they have a spreadsheet that pretty much working", "but it's the third one since january", "thank you i'm way over my five minutes mr kelly i'll yield to you thank you", "thank you ms burkle have you you can take as much time as you want and really we need to hear you for as long as you want to go because i know how frustrating it is", "and i'm trying to understand and i'm going to ask it this way what's the reason for the epa is there anybody finding anything that the epa does that makes sense to any of us now we all have state dep's that should have the primacy over how that i would like to think that the local folks know a lot more about what the local issues are than somebody in washington dc that's never been here", "and doesn't understand what it is that you do what any of you do so if you can't i mean this epa issue is huge it is huge it is shutting down america as we go across the board and i'm not just talking i just wish", "let's i wish we could tell you that it's only in agriculture i spent two days with health care providers", "their problem is they can't see any reason to stay in the business", "you talk to people in the banking business the regulations are so onerous they're afraid to lend money to anybody because they don't know who is gonna come in and shut them down", "and if this is the united states of america and we're more worried about internal conflict and internal regulation than outside then we've got a real problem but tell me on this epa thing because this is absolutely incredible and i don't think the american public has any idea what you go through you know what they ride down the interstate and they see these beautiful farms and say god i'd love to do that that's got to be fun", "but just from listening to you folks i mean at some point there's an old saying don't worry about the mule just load the wagon", "i think the mule's about ready to unhitch himself", "the only thing i can say all three of us here we do what we do because we just like to be farmers bottom line", "and we've just all been pulled away from what we like to do because of all these regulations and the paperwork and i'm sure his brothers are really ticked at him a little bit because he's not out there with them", "cause of the paper we're working", "i'm sure hoping that you're listening and you can find answers for us because i certainly don't understand it all", "it's just evolved in the last one thousand and twenty years to such a such a critical mass of paperwork and regulations and we're just not let we just can't farm anymore", "let me ask you something cause ms burkle asks this question all the time", "if you knew then what you knew now would you be doing what you're doing well you can see i'm not the youngest one here", "i'm neither we're starting to question if this is any fun anymore and when my husband says it's not any fun anymore to farm that's serious", "that's a key phrase and i've heard from more farmers in the last twenty three years and my brothers and i say the same thing the fun is out of agriculture", "i mean it used to be with the seasonal business you could go on vacation in the winter or there is none of this any longer you're just bogged down with regulations", "you're bogged we had dec the other day with going through the dec audit and that's another deal that's necessary you know it's an absolute necessary thing", "but also a lot of the regulations they're requiring out of you are absolutely absurd", "and on you know on your sprayer you've gotta have a label in a bag on the sprayer not only in the cab because if you drive across the road and a car or something hits you they have to be able to see what's in that tank and every time they're telling you about these regulations and these changes they're also reminding you what the fine is gonna be if you don't do it", "and they seem more fine oriented than they are production oriented", "and that's difficult for the agriculture mind to understand we're not into do this or you're gonna get fined we're into lets take a proactive approach and lets get this done", "i think there's an awful lot of regulation coming both from washington and new york state combined", "doesn't matter which government you're referring to", "i've been in the business thirty years thirty years ago we could farm and not necessarily doing anything that we're differently than we are today but we have to certify it", "we have to fill out forms we have to follow regulations", "it isn't changing anything that we're really truly doing other than we're spending time filing out forms to tell somebody else in albany or washington what it is that we're doing and it's the same practices the same things that we're doing we're not we're not doing anything different", "we're not improving anything there's no improvements to our fruit or dairy or vegetables or whatever", "but we're just having to spend more and more and more of my time my wife's time in following paperwork", "following rules doing things doing things that somebody else says that we have to do that isn't changing anything isn't improving how the fruit is grown how the vegetables are grown or how the milk is produced it isn't different", "it's all been the same and hasn't changed in thirty years", "it's the same and yet we're spending i'm spending ten hours a week just doing forms and reading new rules and regulations", "albany just came down with a new set of rules that you have to file a new form every time there's a change in an employee status if an employee works has a work agreement with us that says they're gonna work forty five hours", "if you work forty eight hours last week i have to get a new paperwork and fill out a new form because his hours changed", "that's how crazy the system has gotten to be because some where along the line somebody got taken advantage of", "probably i won't say that it isn't good isn't the way that it should be but when you start making everybody try to solve problems because of one incident the world is gonna come to a stop because you can't regulate everything", "every problem every issue out of reality so", "i appreciate your testimony because i find it absolutely intriguing that a business that runs somewhere between a trillion three and a trillion five a year in the red has the audacity to come in and tell you how to run your business my question really comes down to if any of these people that come in and set the bar and i asked the last group this the people that set the standards have any of them actually done anything in agriculture i mean actually been in farming", "no no absolutely not", "okay so this is a software program that somebody puts on their laptop and tells you what you're gonna do", "absolutely and as it was said a few minutes ago the h2a program that we're using to have labor that's legal and i can sleep at night knowing that i'll have a workforce there tomorrow that ice isn't going to come in and take them away because i thought it was legal they showed me documents that determined to be legal but they weren't", "they can come in and take my workforce away and my crop will fall on the ground and i'll have no recourse", "this is the program i'm using so that i can sleep at night knowing that i can get a crop picked of apples and yet we have all kinds of problems trying to secure a legal workforce and no body wants to hear when you try to talk to somebody about what's been said no body wants to hear what your problem is", "absolutely no body wants to hear what your problem is", "they know better in the agencies that you're dealing with than what i do when i'm trying to do my job and that's a very very frustrating thing and we spend more time right now on organizations and telephoning the people that are sitting here we spend more time in organizations trying trying just to keep a toe in the door in trying to keep some of this regulations at bay and no body wants to hear us", "do you ever have an audience with any of these folks this alphabet soup of people that show up whether it's epa ded whoever it is any of them ever give you the audience to sit down and discuss with you what your problems are and what the common fixes would be from the people who actually do it no", "so other than seeing ms burkle and myself you really wouldn't have a chance to talk to a government that pretty much dictates how you run your business", "i've been to washington and the last congress and the organization that i'm president of has been to washington this year and i've been there last year and talked about these same issues and it's just the same thing over and over and over again that we keep asking for relief and don't get anywhere every time virtually every time they make the program different they make it more difficult", "they don't make it easier they make it more difficult", "because the mindset is that we're going to put we're going to reduce the unemployment rate so we're not going to allow foreign nationals to come in and work in this country", "that that's the mindset of what's going on in this program", "that's where the whole problem with this program is", "is that the mindset is that we don't want this program because we want to put us citizens to work my business and every body's business is a short window of time that we need people i can't hire somebody for sixty eight weeks or ten weeks put on thirty employees for eight hundred and ten weeks and then tell them that they can't work anymore because i don't have anything else for them to do there's who's going to come to work for me for ten weeks for four thousand and fifty hours a week depending on how the week goes and then tell them at the end of the eight hundred and ten weeks well i'm sorry i don't have anymore work where do they go what do they do how do i hire somebody that's only going to work for me for eight hundred and ten weeks a year that's my business that's what i'm in and that's what i have to face and that's why this program gives me that opportunity to try and bring somebody in that isn't out of our country that has people willing to work and yet nobody wants to seem to help us make that system work at least reasonably well for us", "thank you", "safety's a big issue and we're deep in the food safety with daily deliveries fresh produce all the while", "and fortunately this year thank you we're able to get one hundred return workers from mexico what this does and people don't understand it the us department of labor and state doesn't this is critical because our food safety program has standards everything we harvest in the field has a written standard that has to be followed and inspected twice a year", "our workers return they know the standard it's the same thing they follow the procedure we go through the inspections we do a great job of food safety this is why it's critical to have continuity in your workforce and not have to i mean imagine having the same workers as last year and have to jump though all these hoops to try to get them back and hope that you get them back", "and it's all tied in with everything else the food safety issue life wildlife i have to monitor wildlife in our fields on a daily basis and keep a log", "if i see a goose i have to document where i saw it and how i chased it off same with a deer this is the safety these are the food safety requirements that walmart price chopper and wegmans and it's good they're looking out for the consumer and we don't mind that but there has to be somewhere some one our side and a lot of it's our own fault", "i think labor myself is the biggest issue in agriculture", "number two is perception you know the news media is as guilty as anyone else", "look at an agriculture commercial on television", "green giant and here's five guys picking sweet corn in peach boxes here's a stouffers commercial i think it's stouffers here's a guy growing peppers and on the other side of the fence is a dairy farmer", "now isn't that ridiculous you can't have that anywhere near anything and we tolerate it", "picrite here's a company that's owned by a farmer", "he's got an old john deere four hundred and thirty cultivating in a field and says that's my business manager as soon as he gets finished plowing i wrote him a letter stating this is bad for agriculture we're high tech we're an industry an industry to be reckoned with we've got to stop this", "he sent me a certificate for a twelve ounce bag of frozen veggies but we are our own worst enemy we are high tech", "i'm proud of what i do for a living", "i've worked in industry nothing has been as challenging as what agriculture is you do all this and you deal with the weather beside", "we need to do a better job of advertising the technology in our business the education it takes to run a business like this and run it successfully and we need to pound it into the media also", "get out there on the farm and do a story", "follow though one of these audits in the field on food safety look at what we're doing in agriculture and we should not any longer tolerate these commercials that degrade agriculture and the farmers and make us look like a bunch of country hicks because no one is going to be successful in farming any longer if they don't have an education and they don't have the ability to put two and two together and take a proactive approach for the future", "i guess they do that's exactly i mean it is exactly how so many of us feel and that agriculture today", "that we're the green acres generation back with the pitch forks and bib overalls and riding around and you know that's the perception that we work against", "in well but it can be also in a regulatory agencies that we deal with is that the mind set is is that agriculture in this country is run by a bunch of hillbillies pardon the reference to anybody that takes offense to it but that's exactly how it's felt as i said in my statement when somebody else sitting at a desk in albany or washington can tell me how to fill out and what i have to put in my work order and what a work order can and cannot have in it", "and is telling me that my business will operate because of what this work order has in it how am i going to survive i can tell you today that the generation that's working my farm is the last generation that's going to work that farm", "i'll end by saying and i told you our milk is sold to byrne dairy which is a local business i'm really glad these two guys are still in business because i appreciate local food and i'm glad to know where it's coming from and how it's produced and i hope all the rest of you do the same", "well i'm just gonna finish up now that my turn back is broke keep your passion and don't give it up", "because i'm telling you the way we'll fix it is by staying on message and not getting distracted", "i know it's hard to do and i know every day you wonder why i keep doing this and how much longer can i do it", "just keep in mind if we don't get it fixed here there's no other place in the world it can be fixed", "so lets just make sure we all stay on target and we'll get this fixed it's gonna take a lot of fight from all of us thank you for being here i appreciate your bravery for being here and taking the time out of what you do every day and spend it with us thank you", "thank you thank you mr kelly and i would like to thank all of you as well i too would like to echo mr kelly's comments if you quit they win", "so this is about preserving all that you've worked for we want you to know how much we appreciate your efforts and for you to be here today and to take time off from your busy schedules", "we'd like to work with you we'd like to continue this dialog we'd like to take your message to washington which we will i failed to introduce we have members here from the oversight government reform staff so they're listening and working with us as well", "so we will take this message to washington it won't stop here in this room we want to encourage you", "please work with us and dialog with us and lets continue to get this job done", "thank you all very much for being here", "thank you thank you", "thank you very much for your time"], "name": ["gov.house.ogr.20110420.2.3/gov_DOT_house_DOT_ogr_DOT_20110420_DOT_2_DOT_3/gov_DOT_house_DOT_ogr_DOT_20110420_DOT_2_DOT_3_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "gov.house.ogr.20110420.2.3/gov_DOT_house_DOT_ogr_DOT_20110420_DOT_2_DOT_3/gov_DOT_house_DOT_ogr_DOT_20110420_DOT_2_DOT_3_DOT_flac_00001.flac", 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green little citrus fruit and we are not associated with lyme disease", "for the lime industry particularly we smaller companies epa's greenhouse gas rules are having a big impact", "lime plants generate co2 emissions both from the fuel that they use and from what you could call the roasting process that converts limestone into lime", "all lime plants are now subject to greenhouse gas permitting requirements when they are modified so even though the ghg rules took effect only three months ago we're already seeing a chilling effect on plans to modernize or expand lime plants because of great uncertainty surrounding ghg permitting", "the us lime industry is comprised of some twenty companies operating about fifty commercial lime plants", "nearly half of nla's members are small businesses", "these small lime companies face intense competition and they are particularly sensitive to increases in regulatory costs", "for this reason when epa planned at clean air act rulemaking back in two thousand and two that would impose stringent new requirements on lime plants nla was able to persuade epa to convene what's known as a small business advocacy review panel under the regulatory flexibility act", "nla wanted epa to have the opportunity to meet with small lime companies understand their needs and design the rule with those needs in mind", "epa convened the lime panel in january of two thousand and two", "seven of the nine lime companies potentially affected by the rule participated in the panel process these small lime companies met with epa twice including a facetoface meeting in washington dc", "the companies were able to talk directly to epa as well as with representatives of the office of advocacy and with the white house office of management and budget", "because of the panel process the final rule was tough but something that our small lime plants could live with", "several improvements to the rule were only made possible because small lime companies were able to meet facetoface with epa and provide critical information", "not surprisingly when epa announced in two thousand and eight that it planned to regulate ghgs under the clean air act many industries including the lime industry wanted epa to convene a panel", "however instead of convening a panel epa simply chose to have a public outreach meeting and only after it had proposed three rules under ghg program the first the endangerment finding the vehicle tailpipe rule and the socalled tailoring rule", "epa argued that it was not required to conduct a panel for these rulemakings", "whether or not epa could legally choose not to convene a panel it was clearly wrong not to do so", "epa held a panel meeting in november of two thousand and nine well after the three ghg rules had been proposed", "the meeting was in reality little more than epa giving attendees a broadbrush overview of the proposed rules", "nla and the other trade associations that were present had virtually no opportunity to have a dialogue with the agency about the actual design of the rules", "nla followed up the meeting with written comments to epa about the design of the tailoring rule", "the tailoring rule proposed to defer ghg permitting requirements for plants that had ghg emissions below a certain threshold", "because there is no known way to avoid generating co2 when limestone is heated and converted to lime nla asked that epa consider excluding these processrelated ghg emissions from counting against the tailoring rule's applicability thresholds", "epa's singleparagraph response failed to meaningly respond to epa's request", "epa's reliance on the public outreach approach as a substitute for the panel process is wrong for several reasons", "in bypassing the panel process epa lost its best chance to meet with actual small businesses facetoface and exchange information with them", "the panel process also establishes a context for epa advocacy and omb to meet discuss the issues and reach consensus on flexible solutions", "the public outreach approach taken by epa does not and cannot take the place of a panel", "many of the implementations difficulties now facing epa the state's might've been avoided if epa had taken the time to listen to small business before writing its ghg rules", "now the lime industry as a whole is reluctant to expand or modernize its plants until the permitting uncertainties caused by these ghg rules have been resolved", "thank you for the opportunity to testify today", "i'd be happy to answer any questions you have", "thank you mr holman", "oh okay thank you", "at this time without objection i'd like to enter into the record", "let's see we've got testimony from the national association of home builders the farm bureau federation and the small business and entrepreneurship council without objection so ordered", "at this point i'm going to yield myself five minutes and see if some of the other subcommittee members join us", "and correct me if i'm saying your name incorrectly mister", "it's rajkovacz", "rajkovacz thank you", "in your testimony you mentioned the epa taking a onesizefitsall approach", "i wonder if you could expand upon that a little bit", "yes we fundamentally believe without having included smallbusiness motor carriers owner operators in the discussion", "when i say they didn't include it within the regulatory impact analysis they specifically stated that the rulemaking would not have a significant economic impact on a substantial number of small entities", "as we started looking at that we were aware that they were talking with large motor carrier interests and this gets to the heart of the problem in terms of looking at the trucking industry", "the industry is dominated by smallbusiness motor carriers", "nearly ninety five of registered motor carriers in this country have twenty or fewer trucks that they operate", "and yet when ya go and talk to the largest of the large who have very homogenous streamlined operational models they run one truck one type of trailer it fails to take into count the multiple dualpurpose uses that small businesses actually engage in", "we have many members that operate a couple of trailers", "they may one day pull a dry van trailer for instance where aerodynamic technologies would be appropriate and work", "we don't deny that these technologies will work where appropriate", "but the next day they're pulling a flatbed or a drop deck and in that now that technology's working against them", "thank you", "mr doniger in your comments earlier before we adjourned you made the statement that you hoped that members of congress wouldn't fall prey to the phony storylines of small businesses when it comes to epa burdens placed on them", "could in expand", "what were you referring to if i may", "i was referring to a phony storyline about small businesses that is generally told by others by lobbyists for larger entities", "and the common storyline is that epa's regulations affect departments houses hotdog stands donut shops small entities and they don't", "there's a specific exemption as i explained and i'm sure you'll hear from epa and as mr kucinich explained that the permit requirements don't apply to ninety five of the sources in the country", "they don't apply the kinds of sources that emit less than seventy five thousand tons a year of carbon pollution and as a result this storyline that millions of tiny sources are being roped into a government bureaucracy is the very opposite of what's true", "thank you i have about a minute and a half left and i'd like to give each of the other three members of the panel the opportunity to respond to that", "if the tailing rule is followed and allowed it would provide an exemption for some small emitters of co2 for a few years but even the epa says that eventually it's gonna cover entities requiring", "just for title v permits six million new entities will have to be permitted so the tailing rule is just putting it off for a few years", "thank you go ahead", "as far as affecting small businesses as epa's rulemaking goes through in its current form there are millions literally millions of trucks that operate interstate commerce in this country", "as i stated most of em are small businesses", "that means eventually this rule affects millions of small businesses", "thank you mr holman", "yes i would agree that the tailoring rule is only a partial temporary solution for small businesses", "we don't know what epa is going to do at the end of the period of deferral which will end in a few years", "we also don't know", "epa's interested in writing other programs that are going to apply to small businesses so we're in a very large comprehensive and widereaching regulatory program in the climate arena", "certainly from the standpoint of looking at what the impacts are of that program epa's done not a particularly good job", "thank you", "at this time i'm pleased to recognize our chairman who's ohio", "i yield you five minutes", "thanks thank you gentlelady i didn't know if the ranking member was", "he was in the room", "we can certainly let", "well i'll ask a few questions", "i think dennis will be fine and we'll give him", "if he wants a littlelonger time we'll be happy to do that", "lemme again thank you all if being here and i apologize all my notes are at ann marie's desk there but lemme just do a couple things", "dr kreutzer lemme first ask you about the", "talk to me a little bit more about the capandtrade bill and what epa may be doing and how that relates", "you mentioned this some in your testimony", "if you can elaborate on that i'd appreciate that", "and then i do have a question for mr holman and then a general question i think", "if you cut co2 emissions if you force them to be reduced you are going to cut fossil fuel use", "fossil fuel is the affordable energy right now", "fifty of our electricity comes from coal twenty from natural gas", "and in my written testimony i did a cost comparison showing that the renewables are eighty to two hundred and eighty more expensive", "that restricts economic activity", "it means consumers have less money to spend on other things once they've paid their utility bills", "it means producers have higher costs of production", "if you have consumers with less money and you're forcing you have to highercost products they're gonna buy less of it", "ya need fewer people to make that so employment goes down as well", "doesn't matter if it's a tax that you do", "it doesn't matter if it's a cap", "it doesn't matter if you come up with a complex set of regulations to force the same reduction", "you're gonna have those costs", "with regulation it's even more costly cause you have the compliance of the administrative costs as well the six million permits that the epa said they would have to issue for the title v permits", "yeah thank you mr rajkovacz", "is that pretty close yes lemme ask ya this", "this came up in a hearing we had in this room a couple weeks ago", "we had a mr michaels from osha and i ask him this question", "in the course of the hearing i guess i picked up on this and asked him this general question", "i'd like your thoughts as to how you see the small business folks that you work with how they might feel about this", "i asked the gentleman the question", "i said mr michaels would you agree with me that the vast majority of cases employers care pretty deeply about their employees", "they invest time in training them", "they're the key to their success making a profit", "they know em", "they may live in the same community", "there's always exceptions but i said wouldn't you agree that in most situations employers care deeply about the wellbeing of their employees and i was struck by the gentleman's response", "he said i'd like to think so it just struck me that sometimes we have this attitude amongst federal employees who are supposed to i understand regulate business but also probably educate and help them and yet they got this attitude that somehow the employer is the bad guy", "have you picked up on any of that in your dealings with the federal government whether it be epa osha or any other agency trucking is actually i would argue one of the most heavily regulated enterprises in the united states", "others might have a different opinion", "i've been dealing with roughly fifteen different federal rulemakings just in the last four months", "it's somewhat overwhelming for a lot of us in the industry to keep up with it", "it depends", "a lotta times you do develop relationships with different people and agencies", "that's a very important thing networking with these folks and developing relationships", "but when you don't have a lotta contact with an agency you are an outsider and it's really tough to crack that egg", "lemme ask ya another question", "this came out in hearing a few weeks back", "in the full committee we had one of the members of the committee a freshman member congressman guinta from new hampshire", "he asked five business owners and most of these guys started their business two thousand five hundred and thirty years ago all very successful", "he said if you knew then what you know now would you have started relative to regulations if you knew back then all the things you have to deal with", "i think you mentioned fifteen was the number of the different agencies you have to deal with", "if you knew then what ya know now would you have started your business and every single one of em said wouldn't have done it", "would not have done it has that been the experience with some of the folks that you deal with of their attitude yeah what i hear from our members is they are basically on regulatory overload", "i said fifteen rulemakings in the last four months and they are major rulemakings that will change the industry's productivity", "people are generally fed up with what they think is an overregulated environment", "it is oftentimes under the guise of safety where that's appropriate obviously", "i didn't get to my question mr holman but we'll have another round and i'll get to that one next time thank you", "thank you mr jordan", "i now yield five minutes to mr kucinich", "thank you very much madame chair", "dr kreutzer i read your testimony", "i was particularly interested in the chart with the high cost of renewable energy systems where you chart the monthly and annual costs", "my partner's discussion about regulation has always been that you can assign costs but if you wanna get a clear picture you have to look at costs and benefits simultaneously", "otherwise we're not really understanding the societal impact", "when i look at coal in particular i don't think that anyone could argue that the use of coal in the burning of coal and the aftereffects on the environment of coal does have adverse environmental impact", "in a way the sulfur dioxide byproducts can exacerbate pulmonary problems", "it's well recognized", "asthmaemphysema", "the sulfur dioxide when it travels over many miles", "we know this question the midwest that coalburning plants in the midwest end up with the condensate polluting rivers and lakes in the northeast and we have a price of eutrophication there", "you could actually monetize the costs in terms of adverse health and the adverse impact on the environment", "i just wanted to share that thought with you because i think it's really important when we're in a discussion the essence of which is what does this cost", "and your chart taken within its own context you make your argument but when you look at the cost of that technology there is an expense that's offloaded onto the society", "i just wanted to share that with you", "i agree and i don't think anybody here's talking about undoing the clean air act back to one thousand nine hundred and sixty six", "what i'm addressing is carbon dioxide regulation", "we already have extraordinary amount", "maybe we need more i'm not here to debate that regulation for sulfur dioxide and other criterion pollutants", "if you want to look at the impact of carbon dioxide on a costbenefit i think some of the estimates have been exaggerated but if you take the estimates of the social costs of carbon add that to the coal cost that's about two cents per kilowatthour", "it's still much cheaper than wind or solar all right it changes the number some", "it doesn't flip any of them around", "we wanna look at the costs and benefits what benefit in terms of global warming mitigation do you get from this even with a fullblown d'you think there is such a thing as global warming yeah the world's warmer", "i've just got a few minutes left and i'm gonna go on but i thank you", "i'd just like to submit for the record mr chairman a study that shows in terms of benefits and costs that the proposed rules that we've been promoting would avoid up to seventeen thousand premature deaths forty five thousand cases of chronic bronchitis eleven thousand nonfatal heart attacks", "these are the benefits of focusing on protecting clean air so i'd just like to put this into the record", "in the minute that i have left i just wanna ask mr doniger can you explain how the tailoring rule works to prevent harm to small businesses yes thank you", "as i said in my testimony and in response to ms buerkle the purpose of the tailoring rule is to focus the permit requirement the requirement that big new plants and big expanded plants examine whether they have the opportunity to control pollution at a affordable and achievable cost", "it limits this requirement to very big sources and it excludes the ninety five maybe ninety seven ninety nine of the socalled six million sources that mr kreutzer and others keep saying would be subjected to clean air act requirement", "it just will not be so", "my time's expired but the chair has just said that he's gonna ask one more question and he's been kind enough to let me ask another question", "i've got a followup to ask of you mr doniger so i go back to the chair", "thanks chairman", "that would be great if i could", "mr doniger we know that these exemptions are expected to be reconsidered by the epa in two thousand and thirteen", "d'you think the epa is going to keep this exemption for small sources of greenhouse gas emissions yes i do", "i see no reason why they would take that exemption away", "could you clarify just once more do any of the current greenhouse gas permitting regulations burden small sources of greenhouse gas emissions no they don't", "the one thing that is in place that actually helps small businesses so far are these standards for vehicles both light duty and heavy duty that will save thousands of dollars for small businesses that buy cars and trucks", "so bottom line what's the impact of the current greenhouse gas regulations on small businesses it's probably helpful to small businesses as a whole", "thank you", "mr holman would you like to maybe pick up where these guys just left off lemme start with you by asking this", "you were former assistant chief counsel of energy and environment at the sba office of advocacy is that right that is correct", "and you authored the comments that sba submitted to the epa in two thousand and nine that expressed concern about the epa's endangerment finding and greenhouse gas tailoring rules is that right yes the comments in two thousand and eight and two thousand and nine", "both eight and nine good", "now in your former capacity can you give us some insight into the discussion that just took place and the impact that this stuff will have on small business seems to me you're pretty darn uniquely positioned to comment on the conversation we just heard", "well i guess i appreciate that comment", "there was a lotta discussion between the office of advocacy and epa on the tailoring rule", "there's no doubt that the tailoring rule is a help to many small businesses because it does delay the permitting requirements that would otherwise be falling on small businesses the way it has fallen on the lime industry even now", "and i can first address what are those impacts this are falling on us and on some other smalls and this ultimately will fall on all small businesses potentially and that is uncertainty because of greenhouse gas permitting", "so imagine that you are required to comply with greenhouse gas permitting and you wanna do some sort of modernization or expansion of your plant", "what it's gonna mean is that you have to go to get a permit to do that expansion and in the process of getting that permit it could be that every aspect of your operations will wind up being looked at by epa or a state under what's known as best available control technology review", "the concern by most of the industrial sources and even some of the small ones is that that process could wind up requiring you to install nonrelated things things that have nothing to do with emissions but have to do with energy efficiency or some other improvement in your plant that would be very expensive", "and it has a chilling effect cause imagine you go to a bank and you say i wanna get financing for a project that i'm gonna do at my facility well when do you have to put it in i don't know what is it gonna be i'm not sure", "because epa can't really tell me what it is we'll only know at the end of the process and even then we might not know because that's subject to being challenged in court and potentially being changed so there's a lot of uncertainty just in terms of", "this process is not cut and dried", "unlike the batc process that has existed for criteria pollutants for thirty five years we're in a totally new arena here when it comes to greenhouse gases and nobody knows exactly what's gonna be required", "so when you say what's the magnitude of this impact on smalls the moment we don't really know", "it's very openended and that has uncertainty which as you know businesspeople hate", "from standpoint of the office of advocacy we wanted a tailoring rule or something that would at least temporarily soften the blow", "tailoring rule does that but not for everybody certainly not for the lime industry bricks small utilities municipal utilities rural electric cooperatives foundries", "there are a number of businesses that are not gonna be entirely shielded by the tailoring rule", "so when you put this together and you gave your comments and recommendations to the epa and yet you just talk about entities who are you think impacted in a negative way did you think epa followed your comments did they follow the statutory requirements they were supposed to follow did they listen talk about that process", "speaking from my own perspective as an individual my sense was that epa was in a rush to get this rule completed", "as i mention in my testimony we wanted epa to stop or to slow down consider what the impacts were gonna be on smalls and try to come up with a way to design the rules so that it would protect them", "epa was not really interested in alternatives was not really interested in listening to what the smalls had to say", "but what i wanna be clear on", "in my understanding the law requires them to give serious consideration due diligence to your recommendation", "is that accurate that is correct", "and do you think that took place that's the question", "we were not satisfied that that took place which is why we wrote four public letters to epa saying you must do a panel before you proceed with these rulemakings so in your role as advocate for small business in front of the epa they did not follow in your mind what the law requires them to follow it was our belief that epa did not follow the regulatory flexibility act", "they certified the rule and went with what they considered to be a compromise under section 609c of the regulatory flexibility act", "had that ever been done before no it had never been done before", "so didn't follow normal practice took an action never done before on an issue that you told them was gonna impact smallbusiness owners in a negative way is that accurate we told them at least four times", "four times you told them in public documents", "okay thank you mr holman i appreciate that", "we got one more round for ms buerkle", "thank you mr chairman", "dr kreutzer you had started to answer a question about global warming and i have a feeling you didn't finish your answer and i wondered if you could just good job perfect", "expand on that", "i think i was responding to congressman kucinich asking me if believed in global warming and i said yeah we're warming the question though is more than are we having warming and is it caused by humanmade emissions we're looking at a set of regulations and if we're gonna do costbenefit we need to look at what's the cost of the regulation compared to how much benefit you get from reduced global warming", "that's the problem with co2 if there is one and climatologists looked at the waxmanmarkey bill which was more comprehensive than the current epa regulations", "their estimates were that by two thousand and fifty if use the largest sensitivity of temperature to co2 the high end the maximum change moderation from waxmanmarkey", "that is how much would waxmanmarkey make thousandths of a degree in two thousand and fifty maybe a few 10ths of a degree in two thousand one hundred", "this will have less impact than that so we can't compare the costs here to stopping tsunamis", "we have to compare the cost here to what impact it will have on moderating world temperatures and it's pretty minimal in fifty years not even measurable", "thank you in your testimony you talk about the costs capandtrade and the cost to our gdp as well as the number of employees", "can you comment in general that's specific to that piece of legislation but what regulations are doing our country has had 20plus months of unemployment hovering at nine to ten", "we're concerned about that", "we wanna get government outta the way so businesses can succeed", "can you shed some light on that we haven't done an estimate on the impact of the most recent regulations", "we're working on ones for the projected epa regulations", "but one of the things that happens when you have an environment where you say we might impose this we might impose this it makes it very difficult to make investment", "now someone on the other side would say that's why we need to have the regulations but that's when ya say we know for certain it's gonna be really bad", "when there's some uncertainty that's really bad ya still don't wanna invest but when it comes to horrible that's even worse", "okay so yeah we have a problem where to make the investments in power industry to build the power plants we're gonna need firms that are in energyintensive industries are reluctant to go forward if they think the regulations are gonna be burdensome", "i just wanna go back to your previous answer to the first question i asked you", "in your opinion what is the connection between the co2 emission and global warming i'm not a scientist i'm an economist", "so it's close to a manonthestreet interview now", "there will be some warming from manmade emissions probably", "there's some models that show some offsetting but the co2 by itself if it doubles will lead to a doubling excuse me will lead to a degree and a half of warming", "the argument is all about are there feedback loops the models have lots of them", "the data so far look at the last fifteen years", "we don't have accelerating warming", "it's hit the one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine level", "it's been pretty flat so we don't know for sure what it is but more importantly let's say it is the four twelve degrees c that they're talking about at the high end of the ipcc model", "what does any of this regulation do if all it does is impose costs and make us feel like we're doing something but we're not then we're getting the warming anyway and unemployment and lower income", "so whether you believe ipcc or not this is not a solution", "thank you very much i yield back", "thanks gentlelady", "gentlewoman from california do you wish to ask this panel some questions you're welcome to", "thank you mr chairman", "maybe california really is on another planet but we did pass ab thirty two", "there was an effort to repeal that", "it failed miserably", "californians recognize that we all have a responsibility to be stewards of this planet", "having said that small business in california has spoken up very strongly in favor of ab thirty two which would limit greenhouse gases", "mr chairman for the record i would like to submit a letter the document from the small business majority that basically says the following our research has continually shown that the clean air act is good for small business", "a report we released in october of last year found that the benefits of the law have far outweighed the costs", "the office of management and budget predicts the total economic benefits of the clean air act to be more than four to eight times the costs of compliance", "our report also found that the law has spurred important technological innovations such as the catalytic converter and exports of these and other environmental technologies were valued at thirty billion in two thousand and four", "these are encouraging numbers and cannot be ignored", "without objection objection", "furthermore i'm amused because when the clean air act in one thousand nine hundred and ninety was being considered ford motor company claimed that quote we just do not have the technology to comply and yet look where we are today", "ford motor company chevrolet every one of the auto manufacturers are embracing all of the clean air standards and creating electric cars and hybrid cars and the public is embracing them as well", "so i guess my question to you is mr doniger is there some level of exaggeration going on here thank you congresswoman", "it seems as though wherever we are in time the regulations of the past are embraced and the regulations of the future are treated like armageddon", "and then we move on a little bit more in time and those regulations become embraced because as your examples show the benefits are proven the economic costs turn out to be much smaller than were forecasted by lobbyists up here and life goes on", "the economy of the united states has tripled in size since one thousand nine hundred and seventy while we've been able to cut the emissions of most pollutants by sixty or more so we can do these two things at once", "i would just call your attention to a study by three economists", "roger bezdek is the first name", "i'd be happy to supply this", "for the record if i may recite just one paragraph of his findings contrary to conventional wisdom environmental protection economic growth and jobs creation are complementary and compatible", "investments in environmental protection create jobs and displace jobs but the net effect on employment is positive", "second environmental protection has grown rapidly to become a major salesgenerating jobcreating industry three hundred billion a year and five million jobs in two thousand and three", "most of the five million jobs created are standard jobs for accountants engineers computer analysts clerks factory workers et cetera and the classic environmental job environmental engineer ecologist et cetera constitutes only a small portion of the jobs created", "most of the persons employed in the jobs created may not even realize that they owe their livelihood to protecting the environment", "this is a big business and it's a big contribution to our economy", "our economy grows because we protect our environment", "thank you mr doniger", "one final question and this has probably been addressed already earlier in the hearing but this is supposed to be focusing in on small business and the impacts on small business", "the epa tailoring rule which has come forward would suggest that you have to spew out seventy five thousand tons a year to be subject to any kind of regulation by epa", "are most small businesses spewing out seventy five thousand tons no they're not", "virtually all of them the buildings the small businesses that own those buildings are untouched by this regulation", "several of the people here have suggested well that may not be true in the future well if congress was gonna do something that would be constructive and help create the regulatory certainty we need it would be to lock in the tailoring rule the way it is now and take away any uncertainty about how it develops in the future", "and that uncertainty exists only because there is a limit on how long epa is allowed to make an exemption under the court doctrines that epa is using to justify these exemptions", "congress of course can make those exemptions permanent", "if you lock in the tailoring rule we'll have the certainty to focus on the big pollution sources get the technology on them and leave the small fries alone", "thank you my time's expired", "mr doniger just let me follow up then really quickly", "which is it earlier you said that more regulation's been good it's added to the economy it's been growth and now you're saying they should lock in the tailoring rule and take away any uncertainty and not expand it", "so which way is it the way it is congressman but your premise to the first question of hers was more regulation is good", "not all more regulation sir", "oh so it isn't all", "so some regulation could be bad of course", "okay but that's not what you said", "you said regulation was good it added to the economy it was wonderful i said the greenhouse gas safeguards that epa's putting in place are a net plus i think you said regulations in the past have been embraced as the good stuff but all the future one", "everyone always says they're bad and then you said that's not the case it's good so you made this general statement that regulation was good for business good for the economy and now you're saying no we should limit the tailoring rule shouldn't expand it", "we gotta take away any uncertainty out there i just wanna know which way is it i'm sure we can work out which are the positive economicgrowth promoting healthpromoting regulations and which are not helpful", "i'm here to present the case that what's being done now makes perfect common sense", "what epa has done is to make sure that the small businesses are not burdened by the kinds of regulations that don't make sense", "any further questions for the first panel i wanna thank you all for joining us today", "we do need to move along and i apologize for the schedule", "it's as i said earlier just one of those weeks around congress", "we'll get ready for our second panel", "we'll move to that as quickly as we possibly can", "thank you all", "it's i think worth entering the record", "it's what epa relies on", "might be a good question for the epa", "small business majority has leadership", "in what it ignores that of us all those of us", "it's a letter that she just entered into the record and epa's closing quote relies on the small business majority", "oh it dives", "welcome", "soon as we get you situated we'll get started here", "okay we're pleased to welcome our second panel of witnesses", "we have the honorable gina mccarthy who's the assistant administrator at the us environmental protection agency", "welcome miss mccarthy", "and we also have miss claudia rodgers who is the deputy chief counsel at the small business administration's office of advocacy", "if you were here for the first panel we have a practice here", "please rise and raise your right hands", "do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give this committee will be the truth whole truth nothing but truth let the record show both witnesses answered in the affirmative", "we'll go right down the row here", "miss rodgers you're up first", "go right ahead", "mr chairman ranking member members of the subcommittee my name is claudia rodgers and i am deputy chief counsel for the office of advocacy at the us small business administration", "i am pleased to have the opportunity to appear before the committee on behalf of chief counsel dr winslow sergeant", "in the interest of time i will summarize my prepared testimony and ask that my full statement be included in the record", "because advocacy is an independent body within sba my testimony does not necessarily reflect the position of the administration or the sba", "congress established the office of advocacy to represent the views of small entities before federal agencies and congress", "the office of advocacy is charged with oversight of agency compliance with the regulatory flexibility act", "the rfa as amended by the small business regulatory enforcement fairness act gives small entities a voice in the federal rulemaking process", "for all rules that are expected to have a significant economic impact on a substantial number of small entities epa must conduct sbrefa panels to assess the impact of the proposed rule on small entities and to consider less burdensome alternatives", "advocacy and the epa have a long and productive working relationship", "since sbrefa was signed into law in one thousand nine hundred and ninety six epa has conducted nearly forty sbrefa panels to assess the impact of proposed rules on small entities and to consider less burdensome alternatives", "these panels allow for small business to give direct feedback on the potential cost of the proposed rules and to suggest and develop less burdensome alternatives", "final panel reports must be signed by the chief counsel for advocacy the administrator of the office of information and regulatory affairs and the administrator of the epa", "in fifteen years of sbrefa panels advocacy has found that the panel process is a useful way for small businesses to provide valuable input into the rulemaking process", "in short the panel process works", "sbrefa panels have saved billions of dollars for small businesses due to changes and improvements that were made to proposed rules while still allowing epa to achieve their statutory objective", "while advocacy does occasionally have disagreements with epa on procedure and policy we are also very proud of the work we have done with epa to improve regulations and reduce the burdens on small businesses", "we currently have five sbrefa panels underway on epa rules and we will continue to work with epa in a constructive way to make sure the rfa and sbrefa are being followed and the impacts of regulations on small businesses are being taken into account", "with respect to regulation of greenhouse gases advocacy disagrees with epa on whether the impacts on small businesses were properly considered", "advocacy has been clear all consistent in its public comment letters and other communications with epa about our positions on these issues", "we believe epa should've held sbrefa panels and conducted thorough rfa analysis to explore potential impacts of greenhouse gas regulations on small entities", "in four years of greenhouse gas regulatory activity epa has not evaluated the economic effects that its initial endangerment finding and mobilesource emission standards have had on small businesses", "advocacy does not challenge epa's authority to implement the clean air act", "however we do believe a more thorough analysis was needed including sbrefa panels to fully consider the impacts greenhouse gas regulation would have on small businesses", "these concerns were noted in advocacy's four public comment letters attached to my testimony", "in two thousand and eight when epa issued an advance notice of proposed rulemaking indicating it might regulate greenhouse gases advocacy filed public comments asking epa to hold sbrefa panels on any greenhouse gas regulation to ensure the effects on small entities could be considered", "when epa issued its endangerment finding in two thousand and nine advocacy again filed public comments advising epa to conduct sbrefa panels to explore potential impacts of greenhouse gas regulation on small entities", "in epa's subsequent proposed regulation of motor vehicle greenhouse gas emission standards and the proposed tailoring rule epa again certified under the rfa that such standards would have no significant impact on a substantial number of small entities", "epa did acknowledge some of the potential burdens on small businesses and established a phasein compliance program with the tailoring rule", "this action led to significant costs savings for small businesses and epa deserves credit for its implementation", "however advocacy believes epa should have done a sbrefa panel which would've better reflected the views of small businesses and improved the rule", "in conclusion while epa has expressed its desire to reach out to small entities and has provided temporary relief to small businesses advocacy remains concerned that epa has not fully complied with both the spirit and the requirements of the rfa on the greenhouse gas rules", "epa did conduct public outreach", "however public outreach is not a substitute for the concrete feedback agencies get from small businesses during the panel process", "we look forward to continuing to work with epa on these and other important regulations", "thank you for the opportunity to address such an important issue for small business", "i appreciate your work in the office of advocacy and i'm happy to answer any questions you may have", "thank you miss rodgers miss mccarthy", "chairman jordan ranking member kucinich and members of the subcommittee i wanna thank ya for inviting me here today and i'm honored to be sitting here with ms rodgers", "i hear repeatedly from members that small businesses constituents are very concerned about epa updating its clean air act programs to address greenhouse gases but when i listen to the concerns i'm most struck by the fact that what they think we are doing bears little or no relationship to what we are actually doing", "i appreciate today's opportunity to try to set that record straight", "the agency is taking a commonsense approach to meet our clean air act obligations to reduce carbon pollution", "our focus now is not on small sources at all but on the largest polluters", "perhaps the most repeated misinformation about greenhouse gas regulation small businesses relates to greenhouse gas air permits", "contrary to the most commonly heard claims small sources are not currently covered by the permitting program", "epa adopted regulations last year that exempt small sources for at least the next five years and we cannot include them absent a future rulemaking with public comment that would do so", "i know some of your constituents are concerned about what has been called a cow tax", "well let me reassure you that the agency has no intention or desire to impose taxes on cows pigs chickens or any other livestock and while we routinely hear concerns that our greenhouse gas standards will cause incredible increases in gas prices and electricity rates none of these estimates are actually based on the analysis of our programs", "instead they're based on studies and many of them are severely flawed of economywide capandtrade programs that bear absolutely no relationship to epa's actions", "in sharp contrast to these concerns the only greenhouse gas standard epa has issued under its existing clean air act authority will save small businesses money", "the average american purchasing a new passenger vehicle that meets our greenhouse gas standards would net savings of three thousand", "our proposed standards for medium and heavyduty vehicles would net operators of semitrucks savings for up to seventy four thousand over the truck's useful life", "misconceptions about the effects of epa programs are unfortunately no surprise", "over the last forty years similar unsupported claims have been made nearly every time epa has taken significant steps to protect the american public", "in the 70s we were told that by using the clean air act to phase in catalytic converters for new cars and trucks that entire industries might collapse", "instead the requirement gave birth to a global market for catalytic converters and enthroned american manufacturers at the pinnacle of that market", "in the 80s people claimed that the proposed clean air act amendments would cause a quiet death for businesses across the country but instead the us economy actually grew by sixty four even as the implementation of clean air act amendments cut acidrain pollution in half", "in the 90s when we took steps to phase out chemicals that deplete the ozone layer a refrigeration industry representative testified that we'll see shutdowns of refrigeration equipment in supermarkets and air conditioners in large office buildings hotels and hospitals", "none of that happened", "instead the phaseout happened five years faster and cost thirty less", "epa is using the same clean air act tools that we've been using for these past forty years to protect public health to now address the public health threat that is posed by carbon pollution", "these clean air act tools have proven their worth over and over in these years to improve public health", "in fact clean air act programs adopted since one thousand nine hundred and ninety are expect to provide two trillion in benefits in two thousand and twenty alone over thirty in benefits for every dollar spent", "just last year these programs are estimated to have reduced premature mortality equivalent to saving over one hundred and sixty thousand lives and to have enhanced productivity by preventing thirteen million lost workdays", "i'll close with a statement by the small business majority and the main street alliance any step to delay or limit epa's ability to regulate greenhouse gasses and other pollution has negative implications for many businesses whether they're large or small", "it would hamper the growth of the clean energy sector of the economy a sector that a majority of small business owners view as essential to their ability to compete", "thank you mr chairman and i look forward to your questions", "thank you both for your testimony and your time here", "i'm gonna let the ranking member go cause he has to run to another meeting", "and then we'll finish up", "thank you very much mr chairman", "miss mccarthy in a hearing about the impacts of greenhouses gas regulations i think it's important to discuss the reason why these regulations exist", "in his written testimony mr doniger cited the national academy of sciences which concluded and i quote climate change is occurring is caused largely by human activities and poses significant risks for and in many case is already affecting a broad range of human and natural systems unquote", "national academy of sciences continued to explain that the scientific basis for reaching this conclusion has and i quote been so thoroughly examined and tested and supported by so many independent observation and result that their likelihood of subsequently being found to be wrong is vanishingly small", "such conclusions and theories are then regarded as settled facts unquote", "now miss mccarthy as you know the national academy of sciences is far from the only organization that has reached legitimate compelling scientific conclusions that illustrate the real danger caused by climate change", "entities including the world health organization international monetary fund and the us global change research program a program mandated by congress to integrate climate change federal research all definitively identified climate change as a real danger", "now miss mccarthy d'you agree that the science that provides the impetus for greenhouse gas regulation is indisputable and if you do why i do mr kucinich", "that is because the best available peerreviewed science that we have found indicates that greenhouse gas emissions threaten the health and welfare of the american people", "that is what the administrator said in making her endangerment finding", "it is backed not just by epa research but by the full breath of all of the agencies in the federal government who address these types of issues including the national academy of sciences including nasa including noaa", "all of the agencies that we rely on to provide the science to this country and internationally have told us that the simple fact is that greenhouse gasses are endangering public health and the environment and it's time to take action now to reduce those pollutants", "well did the epa allow for comments from private industry including small businesses in a greenhouse gas endangerment finding we did", "it went through a rulemaking process", "it was one of the most thorough of the agency's", "we had more than three hundred and fifty thousand comments which we addressed individually", "we had eleven volumes of response to comment on this rule", "we believe we did the most thorough job that the agency could and that the science is indisputable", "what d'you say then to the small businesses who are continuing to express concern that epa is not paying attention to them and epa is endangering their businesses what d'ya say to them i would tell them that the epa understands that our obligation under the clean air act is to regulate greenhouse gases and that they pose a substantial public health problem", "i would tell them that we are taking reasonable commonsense steps to address greenhouse gases under the clean air act in the way that congress intended in a way that protects the interest of the small businesses in a way that will continue to allow the economy to grow to continue to allow jobs to happen", "we're doing the same thing to regulate greenhouse gases as we have successfully done with other pollutants under the clean air act and we will look at the economic impacts", "we have done that we will continue to do that", "we'll act deliberately and smart and use a commonsense approach", "you heard the testimony of the witnesses in the previous panel did you not i did", "i think we have to be concerned about small business communicating their difficulties", "i know mr doniger's testimony is that most of the small businesses", "that the rules would not necessarily apply to them", "but i think for those to whom they do apply", "they're looking for some words from you that would indicate that you're trying to do everything ya can to make sure people can stay in business at the same time trying to protect the environment", "is that a fair characterization that is correct", "okay i wanna thank the chairman for indulging me with this opportunity to go first thank you", "yield back", "i appreciate the gentleman thank you", "miss rodgers the sbrefa act's been around for about fifteen years that right since one thousand nine hundred and eighty thirty years", "thirty years okay and how many sbar panel i'm sorry the rfa is thirty years", "sbrefa's been one thousand nine hundred and ninety six", "one thousand nine hundred and ninety six about fifteen years that's what i had", "and how many sbar panels have you been involved with with the epa in that timeframe the office of advocacy has been involved with nearly forty", "i think that we're up to about thirty eight now", "i think in your testimony", "isn't it true you said you had like five underway right now", "yes five currently", "okay and you believe these have been positive", "yes overall actually epa is one of the better actors in terms of compliance with the rfa in general", "when we were developing a training program back in two thousand and two we had to go to agencies to find out those who do it best to help us develop the program and we went to ep you got a good track record with epa in all these except the one that's at issue today is that right yes we are concerned about the greenhouse gas so the normal process was not done with the greenhouse issue and its effect on small business", "all the other times have been fine when you recommend it when you went through it except for this one particular one", "we felt that the office of advocacy yes felt that taken as a whole or separately the greenhouse gas regulations clearly had a significant economic impact on a substantial number of small entities and therefore a sbrefa panel should've been held", "and is this a notable exception or is this the only exception to when you suggested you move in this way and go through the process that the law spells out is this a notable exception is this one of a few that's been done this way or is this the only one that's been done this way it's one of a few", "however certainly over the years over our fifteen years and forty panels we're bound to have disagreements over their certifications on some rules but it's really one of the very few", "okay when miss mccarthy answered the ranking member's questions about", "there was a process that was undertaken with small business owners", "it wasn't the normal process", "correct", "okay and miss mccarthy why mr jordan i would just disagree with the characterization that it wasn't a normal process", "i would emphasize that epa certainly follows both the letter and the spirit of the rfa as it's been amended by sbrefa", "just hang on one second", "miss rodgers just testified that it's been a great relationship it has been you've worked things out process has been followed almost all the time and yet here we have a pretty important rule we do", "clean air act greenhouse gas pretty important stuff that they feel's gonna have a real impact on small business", "it would seem to me you would want to follow the standard procedure and go through what's been the custom and the practice so why not in this situation we did follow the appropriate procedure", "i think where we disagree is that the tailoring rule which seems to be the issue at hand is a burdenreduction rule", "now this is important", "you keep saying ya followed the normal procedure but miss rodgers says outta the ordinary the gentleman before", "i assume you saw where mr holman talked and said outta the ordinary not the normal process there are a variety of ways to comply with the law", "epa generally goes above and beyond and we always meet both the letter and the spirit of the law", "in this instance we made a decision that we did not need to convene a panel because the tailoring rule was a deregulation rule", "in fact it reduced the burden for six million small businesses to have to deal with greenhouse gas permitting and in that instance we did not convene a panel", "now we did get comment from spa indicating that they thought we should", "i believe the disagreement is one that we have had in the past before in particular as you believe or do ya know oh i do know yes", "let me explain when that happened", "that had to do with the ozone and fineparticle standards that we issue in one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven", "at that point in time sba also indicated to us that we should convene a panel", "we indicated that that rule was not subject to a panel requirement", "that was actually taken to court", "the dc circuit said that sba's interpretation of the rfa doesn't carry any more weight than epa's and they disagreed with sba and found that our interpretation of the rfs was persuasive", "we actually won that case and we have never ever lost a case in this miss rodgers did you suggest a panel be convened for the tailoring rule and the endangerment finding and the lightduty truck rule yes we did", "yes we did congressman", "so all three and miss mccarthy you declined to do it for each of those", "well we explained each of those rules and i can go through them if you'd like but we still believe we took the appropriate action under the law cause you talked about the tailoring rule and i didn't hear ya talk about the other two so three times", "i can talk about the endangerment finding", "endangerment finding okay", "epa looks at cost and looks at getting sbrefa panels together when there isn't let's cut to the chase here", "why not on something this important something of this magnitude why not do the standard practice why go through this to cite this decision that and here's why why not just do what the advocacy group that's in the law and follow the process that's designed to be followed we did follow the process that is designed to be followed", "what i would indicate to you is that well again we got the advocates for small business both of em saying ya didn't", "i would disagree respectfully", "okay we'll yield to the ranking member or ranking member to the chair of the full committee the gentleman from california", "excuse me", "i was ranking oh i'm sorry", "oh no you should take miss speier i didn't see that you'd", "i apologize mr chairman", "i'm gonna insult ya twice in thirty second", "ladies first please", "but i figure we should go to use", "i didn't see the gentlelady walk in from california so california's gonna get covered nonetheless one way or the other", "thank you mr chairman and thank you mr chairman", "i would have yielded but i have constituents who are waiting in the wings to talk with me so i would like to take my opportunity now", "miss rodgers chairman issa circulated a dear colleague letter to house members yesterday i believe that cites a september two thousand and ten report issued by the sba office of advocacy authored by crain and crain", "the report estimated the annual cost of regulation was more than one hundred and seventy five trillion", "that's kind of a staggering figure", "yet in february of this year professors sid shapiro and ruth ruttenberg released a critique of the crain and crain study calling setting the record straight the shapiroruttenberg found that the crain and crain report had severe flaws quote unquote", "one of these flaws the study was that they looked at costs of regulation without looking at the benefits", "i think ya could make the case if ya look at the cost of running congress", "it's staggering but some would argue that there's some benefit associated with running congress", "in any case", "unless you all wanna retire or resign at this point in time", "miss rodgers did the sba office of advocacy contract with nicole crain and mark crain and did they ask the authors to evaluate the benefits of regulation or only the costs thank you congresswoman", "we did not ask them to evaluate the benefits as well and the reason is this", "this is the fourth in a series of studies we've done on the same issue which is the cost of regulations and the impact of those regulations on small business", "the purpose of the study is not to show regulations are bad and not to show that all of them are overburdensome for small business", "the purpose was to show that small businesses feel the effect of regulations differently than large businesses", "and the reason that was done for the cost and not the benefit's because the costs are what affect small businesses most and it's what the regulatory flexibility act requires our office to oversee which asks agencies to review the cost of their all right how much did that study cost oh i don't know that answer", "i'll have to get back to you would you please provide that to the committee i'd be happy to okay", "another flaw in this study identified by shapiro and ruttenberg was that the sba's office of advocacy never has access to the underlying data used in the report a little astonishing to me", "if ya can't look at the underlying data then", "garbage in garbage out is the way i look at things", "miss rodgers does your office have the data used in the crain and crain study if so will you please make that data available to us i will check and see if our office has the data would make available to you", "i'm told that it is available through crain and crain on their website or through their website that they have made it available", "when we contract out studies our office is not required to ask for that data and make it publicly available", "the author usually keeps that data for lemme suggest to you that from a public perspective if you're using taxpayer funds we deserve to have the underlying data so we can in fact determine whether or not it's accurate", "miss mccarthy if epa funded a study would the agency expect to have access to the underlying data the agency would not only have access to it", "the public would", "all right i think that makes sense", "in addition to shapiro and ruttenberg one of the peer reviewers richard williams from the merce", "mercatus center raised concerns that the report's regulatory quality index may not measure what the authors say it measures and even if it does it may overstate the costs of regulation when used in conjunction with other measures", "miss rodgers what if anything was done to address this concern that was raised during the peerreview process we did have the study peer reviewed and it came back with actually excellent reviews during the peerreview process", "as i mentioned it's one in four studies", "crain has been involved the author has been involved in many of our studies previously which and used the exact same methodology have not had complaints before then", "we've done it in one thousand nine hundred and ninety five two thousand and one two thousand and five and two thousand and ten", "it's basically the same methodology a new version of the same study with an updated cost on how these costs are affecting small businesses", "miss mccarthy do you have any concern with the peerreview process used to evaluate the crain and crain study i do and i'm glad you asked that", "as far as i know the study was reviewed by two individuals", "the sum total of one of the individuals comments was and i quote i looked it over and it's terrific", "nothing to add congrats if this is the quality of the peer review of that study then i would suggest to you it's a study that epa could certainly not put its weight behind", "epa is required to do peerreview analysis of its studies", "it's required to have our studies have analytic consistency rigor real peer review transparency", "the last report that epa went out and contracted for and worked through was peer reviewed by thirty four economists and technical individuals", "we had a thorough public comment process", "what i have here holding is a doublesided copy of just their last comments that they submitted to us during the peerreview process", "two individuals does not make a substantive peerreview process when we have repeatedly asked for the underlying data and have not been provided it by crain and crain or by the sba", "i thank you", "mr chairman i know my time has expired but i would just like to suggest to all of us that taxpayer funds should be spent on studies that really give us good data", "and certainly the data should be available to us and to the taxpayers of this country so i would hope that as we look at ways of making sure that government operates effectively that we require that moving forward", "thank you", "i thank the lady she makes a good suggestion", "following up on that miss mccarthy in the closing of your testimony", "i will close with the statement by the small business majority", "and you quote the ability to regulate greenhouse gasses should not be limited d'you know what the membership is in the small business majority d'ya know that number i'm sorry i do not", "well according to the new york times story july 8th two thousand and nine small business majority has no membership", "its founder mr john arensmeyer says it can no longer objectively represent small business if it had membership", "while the gentlelady from california's point is good the close of your testimony cites a group at least according to the new york times that has no membership and yet portrays itself as an organization representing small business", "i think both points are well taken", "you should make sure in your testimony ya quote from a source that actually might reflect something of the interest of small business", "and with that i would yield to the chairman of the full committee", "thank you mr chairman and i'm sorry that my colleague from california left", "lemme just make something clear for the record", "miss rodgers miss mccarthy you're both working for departments headed by president obama political appointees right yes", "so when she implies that one side of your two positions must be good and the other is ill conceived and doesn't care about the same things that we all saw president obama elected for at least miss rodgers i suspect you object to some idea that you don't care to get it right or that somehow your mandate is different in some way", "wouldn't that be true yes congressman i wanna absolutely object and small businesses care about clean air and care about the environment", "we might wanna make that point as well", "well lemme ask you both a question", "isn't it true you could both be right that miss mccarthy with a mandate to essentially have the cleanest possible air and water can in fact in good conscience make every effort to be as pure as possible we used to say driven snow but i've seen what it looks like when it melts so i won't go there", "and isn't it possible miss rodgers that when you go out and you get a study that shows one hundred and seventy five trillion that you're not saying that you can save all of it and still have the level of clean air and clean water the american people expect couldn't you both be right i would absolutely agree", "now miss mccarthy wouldn't you agree that somewhere in one hundred and seventy five trillion if that's an accurate number that some of that should be reviewed and reconsidered to see if in fact changes could save much of that burden and free up those dollars for other uses even if their use is to help clean the environment that not every regulation has accomplished what you wanted it to in a soundscience way wouldn't you agree we are in the process now of complying with the president's executive order and doing a review of our regulation yeah but i actually was looking at the conclusion", "wouldn't you conclude that there's gotta be something there that you could relook at that would help get burden off the backs of small business and maybe even not small business that in fact on a tradeoff of costbenefit is not the best regulation out there mr issa i would suggest to you that we continually look at those issues and we're working with the smallbusiness constituents as we speak maybe you could explain something to me", "in boiler mact you've got a standard that can't be adhered to and you've gone to the courts asking them to give you relief and they've said we can't relieve you from your stupidity", "go to congress now isn't that slight vulgar but pretty much the exact truth that you've got something that does not exist you've created a rule that cannot presently be done you've gone to the courts trying to get temporary relief in hopes that someday it will be able to be complied with rather than saying what is it that exist that can be complied with wouldn't that be a fair characterization i don't believe so no", "okay what part of it was inaccurate tell me in specificity", "the specific issue is the boiler mact rule went through a public process", "no i'm looking at the outcome", "is the science attainable today according to your yes", "it is yes", "then why did you ask the court for relief because we believe that it deserved reconsideration because some of the legal underpinnings", "during the public comment process because of comments we heard from industry many of them small businesses we made substantial changes from proposal to final which warranted additional legal underpinnings through public comment process", "we will do that", "why wouldn't ya just pull the rule there was no need to do that and we were under a court order to deliver a final rule within a given point in time which we did", "but we also amended so now we have something for which you've asked the court for relief and they can't give you relief", "no what we intend to do is reconsider the rule", "in due time we will respond appropriately", "it will be legally sound and it is already scientifically credible", "but not currently available", "oh it's actually a final rule", "no no i'm talking about the actual technology", "oh no i'm sorry", "i believe that the requirements in the rule are achievable", "well thank you", "i appreciate your having that opinion under oath", "the mandate for these impacts", "it's probably been brought up but i'll just bring it up again", "last year i sent administrator jackson a letter requesting the epa suspend finalization of its greenhouse gas proposals until after the agency'd complied with the office of advocacy demand", "you sent me back a response on february 4th informing me the agency's decision was to move forward at that time", "you indicated that your outreach under 609c fully satisfied epa's obligation to assess the impact and actions on small business", "d'you still stand behind that yes", "miss rodgers do you think that they've really lived up to the spirit of that unfortunately no we don't", "609c of the rfa does allow an agency to reach out to small businesses but we don't feel that this relieves them of their duty to hold a sbrefa panel", "as i said in my testimony outreach to small business is not the same thing as a sbrefa panel", "the advantages of the panels that you don't get from outreach are at the preproposal stage you have the threemember panel our office epa and the office of information regulatory affairs at the white house", "and at the end of the process you end with a panel report that has the recommendations from actual small businesses on various alternatives that get put into the docket", "i'll add another question to this this round if i can since i think we've got a little time here", "section three hundred and seventeen of the clean air act requires epa to complete an economic impact assessment for any regulations propagated under section two hundred and two of the act which applies to the car rule", "did epa conduct a section three hundred and seventeen economic impact assessment before any of its greenhouse gas rulings were made it did conduct a regulatory impact assessment associated with the lightduty vehicle rule", "if so did the analysis assess the following which are required by statute the cost of compliance yes", "the potential inflationary or recessionary effects i believe so", "the effects on competition with respect to small business the rule exempted small business mr issa so we probably did not need to go into much detail there", "do you intend on always exempting small business no when it's appropriate we do", "no no do you expect that this rule would never change that in some future time you wouldn't do it if the rule changes we'll have to go through a rulemaking process and conduct another analysis", "you carved out small business in order to essentially keep yourself from having do that assessment or that assessment simply wasn't necessary and that was never part of the consideration that was obviously", "part of the regulatory impact assessment was to look at all costs", "what i'm explaining to you is that we did not cost small business the reason i ask the question is you don't exempt anybody without a reason", "obviously we don't want clean air and clean water only for big companies", "we want clean air and clean water so in your decision to exempt small business wouldn't you need a cost reason to do so actually we did provide a thorough assessment of why it was appropriate to exempt", "cost was part of the consideration", "lead time was part of the consideration because you're asking significant improvements in cars and many of the smaller manufacturers would not be able to produce and comply with the rules in the same way that large industries or large manufacturers are able to do that", "the next test was the effects on consumer cost", "did you take that into consideration yes we did", "the effects on energy use did you take that into effect yes we did", "to the extent that the epa has conducted any economic impact analysis i respectfully request that you provide that to the committee", "are you prepared to do that oh we certainly will", "okay i would very much appreciate it", "that in our opinion has been requested previously and is long overdue", "i'm getting head shaking", "oh", "christina am i wrong we have requested that", "i'm not sure it's appropriate here but we", "i mean we've certainly sent epa a series of letters", "okay i think if you look through the series of letters you'll find that that was certainly something we had expectation of getting we haven't gotten but i appreciate your willingness to give this to us today and yield back", "thank you chairman", "it is part of the rulemaking that that is public information and is in the docket", "thank the chair", "and it's on the web", "i just have one other question and will be happy to yield back if the chairman has anything additional", "in your testimony miss rodgers you indicated that the panels work the panels work and you feel like you got a good relationship with miss mccarthy and anyone and everyone else that you work with there it's a process that makes sense and that has been effective", "miss mccarthy would you agree with mrs rodgers testimony what she said in her testimony that these panels work and that it's a good process our relationship works very well", "i would submit to you that we both are extremely concerned that epa get appropriate information and feedback on small businesses and impacts to small businesses relative to those that we are regulating through a rule yes", "but to the specific question the sbrefa panels work the process works", "it has worked very well yes", "okay now i come back to what i asked you earlier", "a rule of this magnitude in light of the debate that took place in the united states congress dealing with capandtrade this issue that's been front and center for the american people a process that you both indicate works why didn't ya follow it for something again of this magnitude of this importance with the debate the way it is with the concerns expressed by small business owners in front of this committee today look i understand hindsight's two thousand and twenty and all that but if ya had it to do over again would ya have convened a panel and went through the normal process let me explain to you if i could can ya answer that question", "if you had a do over again no no i would not", "i would do it exactly the same way and that is because these panels are designed to address issues relative to our rulemaking that sets a standard or establishes a requirement on a business sector a small business entity", "they're asked specific questions like what's a reporting and recordkeeping and compliance what are the federal rules that might duplicate it what alternatives d'ya have to the proposed rule we did not enjoin a panel because the rules that you're talking about did not immediately or directly regulate small business", "well wait a minute but so there was no way in which we could apply this rule you just said ya had a great relationship", "in those questions", "miss rodgers is an intelligent lady", "her folks who work for her are intelligent people", "they suggested that ya do it", "they did so you may not have thought it was absolutely necessary but why not do it again when they're saying this makes sense to do and business owners are saying it makes sense to do we've heard testimony of the concerns they have", "why not just do it why not be safe rather than sorry on the tailoring rule we did a voluntary program where we had an outreach with twenty three sers", "we had a panel", "we got their input", "what we are not agreeing to is this rule and there is a requirement for panels to be developed when we have a rule like the endangerment finding that isn't directly regulating small businesses like the tailoring rule miss rodgers", "that is deregulating small businesses", "it doesn't mean we don't appreciate the input of small business and we try to get that input into the process", "miss rodgers you understood when you suggested the panel that the epa could in fact take the route that they took", "you understood that yes", "ya didn't think it would happen cause it's outta the norm right exactly", "yet you still said this is important to have this panel give me why you were so focused on that and why you've expressed comments after the fact why it was important to have that panel", "i'd be happy to", "one of the reasons", "the endangerment finding no it did not directly regulate small businesses", "however it did set the greenhouse gas regulations in motion", "the foreseeable impact of these rules on small businesses certainly were there", "the next rule to come about was the vehicle emissions rule of course", "they were regulating large automobile manufacturers", "however just by beginning that process and starting to regulate greenhouse gasses under the clean air act", "and one part of the clean air act automatically triggered the greenhouse gas regulation or regulating greenhouse gasses under the entire clean air act thereby subjecting small businesses to permitting requirements under the clean air act", "so you could foresee what was coming", "why couldn't they i can't answer that question but what i can say is by not hold and it was clear", "did you have any in your team who suggest this was there any disagreement as to", "was it unanimous we need to move with this panel it was unanimous", "yeah so it was strong", "you had to do this yeah", "you could foresee what was coming", "yes we could", "and you've proved right based on the testimony we got from the first panel", "we think we have", "and yet they just couldn't see it", "unfortunately no", "see we have no further questions for the panel", "wanna thank you both for attending today and again i wanna apologize for the schedule", "we'll look forward to visiting again", "we're adjourned"], "name": ["gov.house.ogr.ra.20110406.2/gov_DOT_house_DOT_ogr_DOT_ra_DOT_20110406_DOT_2/gov_DOT_house_DOT_ogr_DOT_ra_DOT_20110406_DOT_2_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "gov.house.ogr.ra.20110406.2/gov_DOT_house_DOT_ogr_DOT_ra_DOT_20110406_DOT_2/gov_DOT_house_DOT_ogr_DOT_ra_DOT_20110406_DOT_2_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "gov.house.ogr.ra.20110406.2/gov_DOT_house_DOT_ogr_DOT_ra_DOT_20110406_DOT_2/gov_DOT_house_DOT_ogr_DOT_ra_DOT_20110406_DOT_2_DOT_flac_00002.flac", 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9140, 1037, 1793, 1293, 1753], "label": ["we'll begin with the motion ray cell versus bar", "good afternoon your honors", "and may it please the court", "my name is denitia bacchus and alongside my colleague gregory devinsky", "i am pro bono appointed counsel for petitioner mohammad russell", "i understand from your deputy that rebuttals are not the default in the motion context", "so if i may i'd like to request one minute for rebuttal", "you can have one minute", "that means you're only going to get four", "for your main argument but go ahead", "understood your honor", "so thank you your honor this emergency motion of two simple questions whether mr russell raises substantial claims and whether extraordinary circumstances justify his release", "if you answer both questions affirmatively then you should exercise your authority to release him", "on the first question the government doesn't dispute that mr russell raises substantial claims which we preview in this motion or we'll read them full in our forthcoming petition", "the second question on what are extraordinary circumstances justify his release comes out in our favor", "there can be no doubts that we live in extraordinary times evidence in part by our discussing this motion by phone", "but it is not just the pandemic and its effect on normal life that make these circumstances extraordinary", "it is mr russell's severe medical vulnerabilities", "among them his longterm use of an immunosuppressant medication and his syndrome", "there are many of these applications now we're getting them in the in the the criminal context the the facilities do seem do seem to do better", "they're doing better", "and and so just from a couple of months ago there i mean you know the the the numbers are down", "so is it still such a great emergency it is your honor and to be clear we applaud all efforts to make the buffalo facility safer for the average detainee", "but the the point is that mr russell is not the average detainee", "he is the medicine", "let me let me question you about that because i am familiar with these corticosteroids that are used for allergies have cause i have number of family members who use them", "gerd you also the gastroesophageal reflux chronic cough exercise induced asthma all seem to be relatively you know common ailments rather than this is not something like lupus or a cancer that has been diagnosed", "these are the chronic conditions that are found widely in the general population", "the government argues at them", "and i guess he's had one cold and an upper respiratory infection to file an immigration detention", "sorry are you confident that these population that they would distinguish mr russell just on their own i mean there may be other aspects of his circumstances having been held for so long for example that make his case extraordinary", "but i i do wonder about your reliance so heavily on his use of the corticosteroid and as well as these other relatively minimal conditions in my experience", "and by the way by the way you have one minute left of your four minutes", "go ahead", "all right", "sorry i used your time", "no no problem your honor", "so dr keller a medical expert with over twenty years of expertise in diagnosis and treating people and also in work alongside i has opines that mr russell's particular medical conditions and that does include both his longterm immunosuppressant use and his weight and all of these and and his depression anxiety has longterm detention and the facility that all together combined these various conditions at to his specific medical vulnerability to coronavirus", "that is the point", "we are not arguing that anyone separately would necessarily affect what would be enough but we do believe that combined and we have evidence both here and in the cdc guidelines that these these condition's effective vulnerability on the cdc guidelines your honor the cdc does recognize that immunosuppressants use excuse me that corticosteroid use does lead to immunosuppression", "and so but that is respectfully what we put forward on the relevance of the you know suppressant medication", "if i may just very briefly i just like to quickly address the government's extraordinary attempts last night to forward a new medical declaration in in reply to our arguments", "i think it probably goes without saying that you cannot surprise the court and your opponent with new evidence on the oral arguments", "he the", "i actually haven't i haven't seen it was something something was filed last night", "it was your honor at six hundred and fifty eight pm last night the government attempted to amend its medical declaration", "and what we contend is an almost a concession of our points on there of our challenges to their medical repetition", "all right we'll find it and take a look at it but we'll hear from the government", "good afternoon your honor said the government and may it please the court", "i'd like to start very quickly with the various cdc guidelines that the petitioner has cited in support of her claim that russell's used the corticosteroids puts him at risk", "those exact those exact cdc guidelines actually say and i quote that the use of oral or intravenous corticosteroids may affect a patient's immune system and so could you speak a little more slowly please", "yes i'm sorry", "i only have five minutes", "i'm so sorry that doesn't help", "so i'd just like to very quickly point the court to the cdc guidelines that the petitioner's cite explicitly as saying at mr russel's use of these corticosteroids that he takes the nasal spray which is a localized corticosteroid affects his immune system and puts him at greater risk", "the cdc guidelines explicitly describe corticosteroid use as a risk factor in saying and i quote the use of oral or intravenous corticosteroids or other medications causing immunosuppression can put a patient at risk of a at risk of an effective immune system", "and so the cdc guidelines that the petitioner sites themselves they're actually not probative but the claim that they're making that is that this localized steroids which acts differently than intravenous or oral corticosteroids in the bloodstream and its effect on a person's immune system", "i i was troubled by some of the other aspects of the case including that even though he does not have a criminal record he's he's been in detention for for for two years", "does that not make this an unusual case an extraordinary case really your honorit's our position that it doesn't", "mr russell has challenged the nature and length of his detention more than once in the district court", "and he has actually won one of his habeas petitions in part and it's entitled by july of this year to receive a more individualized hearing on his continued detention status", "and so the nature of this sort of motion and again they're so rare but we're seeing them in this pandemic context", "but they", "shouldn't we in considering what is a danger from respect to the virus also consider why the person is being retained detained and how much i mean the two things really go together", "what is an extraordinary risk for one kind of person may not be sufficient for an another one shouldn't we look at the whole thing together your honor", "again there are so few of these cases that i think you're right in saying that this is a totality of the circumstances sort of consideration", "but i would say that the medical allegations that the petitioner is making are not supported by the record", "and that bumps this case away from being an extreme circumstance in a way that they're arguing", "let me ask you another question", "in two opposing counsel the presider had aren't things easing up", "i'd like to ask you both are they easing up generally or is it in prisons that currently there is still much to be worried about that is yeah it certainly has it eased up in my state for instance", "but the guidelines that we had in my state are the prisons are now becoming what nursing homes were in an earlier part is that so your honor i don't think thank you", "your honor that's not supported by the declarations that i've received from the detention centers", "there has been no i've confirmed this today", "there has been no new covid cases in the detention center where russell is since april 20th", "the facility is below fifty capacity to ensure that detainees can maintain social distance", "despite petitioner's contentions in their apply brief detainees are required to wear masks anytime they are outside of their housing unit", "and all employees that interact with the detainees must wear masks at all times", "and so not only has the detention center gotten better since the jones litigation but the detention center is a much safer place for russell to be when the epicenter of the pandemic which remains in the united states to be new york city", "could you just clarify one thing for me so the status of the mask requirement is what with regard to prisoners", "when i was looking into jones litigation it seemed to me that people were inmates that were requested to wear masks but it was not required", "it's a very new requirement that they are now required to wear the mask not all the time when they're outside of their housing unit", "so anytime they go to court anytime they go to a medical visit anytime they leave their housing unit they are required to wear a mask", "i think i'm sorry", "i understood mr russell was housed in a dormitory style kind of open area where there was space for people but where he could be then affected by someone else's mask wearing practices and be the victim of a transmission", "is that am i incorrect in that understanding that's not incorrect your honor", "not incorrect okay", "there aren't there aren't yeah sorry i just murped to that", "there there are only a few single unit housing styles in this detention center and those are being used for the jones litigation for detainees that are determined to be at high risk", "and russell has not met those criteria and so he is in one of the more standard housing units", "that housing unit itself to the extent it can be made more safe is being made more safe", "in that each unit is under fifty capacity", "one other quick question if i could i i understood you to be representing that the incidents is low right now of covid in this facility", "but it was not clear to me what the testing rate was does everyone tested every day not everyone is tested", "every person that comes into the texan detention center every new intake is tested and quarantined for fourteen days", "even if the test comes back negative", "otherwise detainees are screened for symptoms and tested if they display symptoms", "and any detainee symptomatic or not can request to be tested and they will be tested", "what about the staffs what about the staffs are they tested daily or how often are they tested your honor", "i don't know the answer to that question but i would gladly i can find out and file an amended statement from the director of the facility if you'd like", "well yeah sure", "go ahead and and you can do that", "and then the other side can respond if it wishes but but but i would do it relatively soon", "okay i'll do it as quickly as i can", "thank you your honor", "well we'll hear the rebuttal", "thank you your honor", "a few quick points", "first on the method of the trans method of the administration and the submissive slide", "the government is correct that currently the cdcs guidelines do distinguish between different methods of administration of corticosteroids", "i know that that is a recent update as the government's medical declaration itself acknowledges covid19 is still a new disease with evolving information", "thankfully the cdc guidelines are not the only evidence that we have to this point", "we cite cases excuse me not cases", "we cite studies by the national institutes of health namely the national library of medicine that does not distinguish between the immunosuppressant effects of corticosteroids that are administered nasally versus in any other fashion", "and one of those studies confirms that the specific corticosteroids that mr russell uses is absorbed into the system when it is administered nasally", "on the points about his criminal history we want to just reiterate that he has no criminal history", "he has never been arrested", "the government does not argue that he was a flight risk", "let me interrupt for just a second please", "i guess we have open still the question regarding the amended statement that has to do with medical information about the import of mr russell's white blood cell count", "and if we the panel decides to consider that is that something he'd want an opportunity to respond to", "on the substance as opposed to just the filing of this at the very last minute", "that's correct your honor", "i i would say here that you know based on us having less than twenty four hours to review it we believe that mr russell would still prevail even as the court were to wait that certified declaration we we we we would we would still believe that mr russell prevails he tries to the government tries to make two new arguments", "one on his white blood cell count and notably on his weights which they don't actually mention in their affirmative motion", "on the white blood cell counts the government puts forward a new cbc test", "from september two thousand and nineteen long after mr russell had already began his corticosteroids therapy based on the studies that we cite", "the relevant comparison are baseline levels eye levels before a patient begins corticosteroid therapy to a level after the patient is on corticosteroid therapy", "meaning that the fact that over the course of six months someone's white blood cells haven't changed very much doesn't tell us anything about the import of that test", "on the wait", "yep 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22890, 15570, 3670, 4544, 4206, 4314, 4332, 833, 3661, 1185, 1444, 1014, 2330, 5061, 2159, 6760, 1983, 2427, 3630, 2110, 1688, 995], "label": ["cases one hundred and thirty five thousand one hundred and fifty five thousand six hundred and eighty five and five thousand nine hundred and seven united states of america versus demetrius fields clinton lewis and martin lewis", "argument not to exceed thirty minutes to be shared by appellants and thirty minutes to be shared by appellees", "messers stengel mcafee and simmons for opponents", "good morning your honors", "mike stengel of the memphis bar here on behalf of demetrius fields", "he wants the sentencing challenged", "this is the sentencing challenge", "great", "and very simply the current law of this circuit is fairly clear that you look to the plea agreement to determine whether the united states reserve sole discretion on whether to it make it 5k1 or not", "okay so we have that we have that", "well i think that that's the issue is whether we have that or not", "sorry", "it is i would suggest from reading this court's cases that it's not always easy to determine whether you have that", "and what's very unique in mr fields situation is that there was a stipulation that mr fields provided substantial assistance to the united states which the district court ultimately at sentencing described as extraordinary", "and the united states the prosecutor agreed that was a fair description", "it's mr fields position that once the government stipulated that he had provided substantial assistance that they had an obligation in good faith to either make the motion or prove by a preponderance that there was a breach of the plea agreement", "well you know this plea agreement bears discretion", "it didn't say shall or will like we had in lewis case isn't that right that's correct", "so you know it was always understood that the government had discretion as well as to file a 5k but he got the benefits of the 5k anyway", "so i'm kind of from a district court judge's perspective i'm wondering what's the point i would disagree that he got the benefits of the 5k", "didn't the judge say that the cost of this extraordinary cooperation i will depart down to fifty bearing down instead of giving him life imprisonment he did vary downward from the okay so that's what the 5k would've done", "the 5k didn't bind the judge to whatever the government recommended by paper", "just give the judge a basis to depart that one", "that's correct", "is this a distinction between the word bearing and depart is that what this all comes down to is this a distinction without a difference is that what this comes down to this court may well conclude that", "mr fields would disagree in part wouldn't you say that it's harmless air to not get a departure to which you're entitled but instead get bearance in the same amount that would be condescending", "in other words i'll even bring to you to you that it's an error", "the terms mean different things", "and they come at different times in the calculation but wouldn't we almost say communist not under the facts of this case", "in most cases i would say that they would", "but in this case the plea agreement provided that the government would make a specific sentencing recommendation as to a cap if it made the 5k1", "and this was a situation where the court on two occasions knowing there was no 5k1 and finding the court determined that the only reason there was no 5k1 was because of this government's conclusion that there had been continued criminal conduct", "this gets to the same place", "it's like one person taking the bus from cincinnati to columbus to get there at four o'clock another person taking you know a car that gets to columbus at four o'clock", "you took different vehicles but you got to the same place at the same time", "i'm still struggling with what the issue is here cause he got what he wanted anyway", "and the government was not required to give him a 5k it was not", "show me where in the record where in the agreement the government was required to give the 5k mandatory language", "there is not mandatory language in the plea bargain", "in fact it says that the government need not", "aren't those the words um", "need not file for substantial assistance on the grounds for substantial assistance", "whatever it's presumed reasonable this sentence is it not it is presumed reasonable", "right it is good lowguideline sentence", "presumed reasonable", "so you're the steep hill that you have declined here today", "obviously the one that judge marbley's focused upon but we have to overcome the presumption", "it is a it's a sentence that's lowguidance", "it is conceitedly both a steep and a high field for mr fields to climb", "however it's impossible", "i need to climb over mount everest", "in the snow i don't i don't make the call", "however i would simply suggest that with respect to traveling to cincinnati by bus or by plane the only thing that i can say is without the 5k1 and without the government's recommendation which was required in the plea agreement if the 5k1 was met and the judge's two or three times soliciting by recommendation for sentencing from the government that without the 5k1 we cannot determine that we both that mr fields arrived that the judge arrived at the exact same sentence", "we could also say that without the drug dealing from prison you'd get a different result too", "well the mr pierce", "the government made that point explicitly clear but again mr fields's problem is that there was no real establishment of that in the courtroom", "and indeed that was something that bothered the government", "i want to go back for a moment a point that you made about you know maybe he gets a different sentence if the 5k is made", "didn't the government decline to recommend a sentence during the plea yes on more than one occasion", "all right so is it even if the government had moved for a 5k sometimes they'll make a move for a 5k and not suggest the extent to which varies", "so wouldn't we be in essentially the same position once again even with the 5k made that the government has yet to position that it was not going to recommend a particular sentence no because this the 5k potential 5k language in this plea agreement specifically stated that if the government moved for a 5k it would recommend a sentence of twenty years or less", "and so there would have been a recommendation", "and again that's one of the unique situations about this", "okay thank you mr stengel", "you ate your full rebuttal", "thank you", "if it please the court my name is marty mcafee and i'm with the memphis bar", "i represent martin lewis in this case not clinton lewis in this case", "we've gotta keep em straight", "i had asked the jury to do that throughout the six twelve week trial", "this was a very unique case", "twenty eight days of testimony seventy five witnesses three hundred and fifteen exhibits", "the government portrayed this as a vast conspiracy", "respectfully it's just it's more likely that this was this was more likely meeting concentric conspiracies that the government would have to prove", "and when you look at all the testimony regarding martin lewis you find just weeks and weeks and weeks where there's no testimony", "martin lewis did this or did that or was involved or was there or was guarding or saw it was delivering dealing any of that", "essentially the case against martin lewis when it comes to real witnesses and facts regarding one of the several murders involved is this is a buildup to the motion is that your point or where are you going with this it goes towards both the severance", "it goes towards the variance from the okay well on the severance you know i i will say i thinking about this case that we did have this point where there was a stage where i was saying to myself it really does seem prejudicial to have these cases altogether", "thank you but then i but then i thought i can use the word stage", "and then i thought to myself but wait this is a conspiracy case", "and how funny that seems i mean if you if the alley if there's enough to have an indictment that there was an agreement to do criminal business with somebody i don't know", "why shouldn't you be tracked together i mean i realize that conspiracies have bigger players and smaller players and i get that but it's still a conspiracy", "how strange to have separate trials when there's well one conspiracy or one set of conspiracies among a bunch of the same people", "it's the set of conspiracies that gets it gets terrible when you prove for ten days that mr capone did this and for another ten days that that this gangster did that and another ten days that this gangster did that", "and then you spend hours proving that martin lewis was involved in this farflung the reason that's not so bad is all you have to do to get out from under coresponsibilities is say i never entered the agreement he never entered the agreement", "if you do that everything's irrelevant", "but if you did enter the agreement then the bad consequences seem naturally to follow", "well and honestly i had allotted at least in my planning to spend perhaps fourteen or fifteen seconds on severance", "okay i'm sorry", "i just want to let you know i had a good thought for you for a little while", "well you still can and you spend five more seconds on whether or not sure", "the government is correct that your severance argument receives only plain error review in such as that was not really okay", "well it was brought up i understand but it wasn't countless countless countless times pretrial", "it was brought up not renewed", "over and over during the trial", "and it was not renewed at that", "so i do think i'm stuck with that", "okay so here we go", "but just on severance and say this the only way we get to your but then i thought about this is if you believe the witnesses they put on", "which is why brady matters so much here and it's why the perjured testimony matters so much here because that's really the only way we really have a trial", "the bedrock that the whole system rests upon okay so perjured testimony i mean", "i don't know i felt like that had a really great caption but then when you read it you realized your theory of perjured testimony is the government's putting on witnesses and i guess it probably does count as perjured testimony if they're both saying opposite things but what you had was the only time they were saying opposites was as immaterial points", "points in the story that really didn't go to whether someone murdered somebody else at someone's directions", "they went to whether someone was in the car at that point in time", "well when you i'm going to respectfully disagree on that", "and i think if you and i'm going to tell you this is a sea of information", "i mean this is a record to tackle and for y'all to get to the well give us the one that really counts as perjury and they'll respond", "okay i'll do my best", "with this most of the really good variances that matter for me for martin lewis's case the government can't make it without marcus brandon", "they can't make it without terry peete", "they can't make it without carlos whitelow because their testimony is essentially that carlos whitelow sees mario mcneal says he's over here and he waits in a certain place until martin lewis is directed driven over and kills mario mcneal", "driven over by terry peete and then confesses about his actions to marcus brandon", "now you're going to see the theme of those three names brandon peete and clinton lewis over and over in the testimony regarding marcus term", "now that is a separate murder in the government's best conspiracy theory", "but when you look at when you break down what those three really what all those witnesses around that murder had to say they're not consistent and clearly the government knew about that prior to trial", "the investigation this is inconsistency the equivalent of falsity when to equate to perjury when you when one person says he left with marcus brandon terry peete and clinton lewis and we never saw him again and that saved those two people that are in the car other than clinton lewis marcus brandon and terry peete say no he left with other people and i never saw him again and the government has that information well ahead of time and they know about it and they've got em written down and one's saying north i'm certain north and one's swearin south i'm certain south that is not just an inconsistency", "an inconsistency is where did i leave those keys was it in my blue suit or was it in the tan suit that's an inconsistency", "there was a murder to explain here", "well which one i mean turn around i suppose", "you're focused on turn around i'm looking back", "well that is that's right", "but when you look at all of the different testimony on this first you have to look at marcus brandon because the government withheld information until after marcus ran and had testified", "they had a dea six where one of their witnesses temarcus cartwright said that wasn't this the that was acquittal yes it was okay", "well i didn't represent clinton lewis", "clinton lewis was acquitted of that and yet he was convicted by the jury verdict with the conspiracy behavior surrounding that", "so those are inconsistent too", "but regardless of that yes it had to do with a murder that martin lewis was not even accused of", "but these are all witnesses that are shared among this murder and this murder and this murder", "and when you can show to a jury inconsistencies and you are entitled to do that before we should honor this jury verdict", "you can't say well there's an acquittal on this or but mr mcafee martin lewis was convicted of that", "didn't the jury take that away from here weren't you given a chance to put the witness back on the stand yes sir after yes sir we were", "and that mitigates this but it doesn't give us back our opening statement", "the credibility that we need before a jury when we're going into a trial trying to guide the jury through six and a half weeks of testimony", "a lot of which we should know was coming", "they set up the practical matter", "if you might have a stronger case if clinton lewis had been found guilty of the murder", "because really if you going to give an opening statement for what you know will be a six week trial are you going to deal with such minutia way as to say well mr jones here will be in seven times when he went on crossexamination you aren't going to tip your hand like that", "you're just going to say ladies and gentlemen evaluate the credibility of the witnesses you're gonna throw a teaser out there", "at least in the traditional opening sentence", "i couldn't do that because i was told over and over pretrial you'd been given the you've got we were told over and over prior to the trial we've turned over all brady", "we know what brady means and we will continue to follow that obligation", "and yet for three and a half months that the change in temarcus cartwright's", "its version of the mr mcafee have you ever gotten jencks material yes sir", "and you've done opening statements without having been given jencks material before trial right but but i can't get jencks material after a witness that i want to crossexamine", "no we're talking about opening statement and you don't know what's in the jencks material", "that's correct", "so it's not my you know this is kind of to the brady situation right it is", "so and since there was no actual harm or at least no harm that you pointed out thus far when you were given the brady material and you were given the opportunity to cure what's the prejudice we were prevented from curing it by not being allowed to put on detective mackenzie who could say we had probable cause to indict marcus brandon terry peete and clinton lewis", "we did indict them in mississippi and the government said because wouldn't that be speculative he's speculating as to what a grand jury would have done", "he could say that they were indicted and the reason that that's important is that it's yet another obligation that these witnesses owed to the government because the united states government went down to mississippi and said let them go we'll take care them and mississippi thought that what they meant was we will prosecute them", "but what they meant was we will take care of them and they did take care of them", "and the jury was entitled to know that they took care of them in that way", "because if you can say mr mcafee if you will say abc and d and of course i can't prove that they said that and i don't think that they said that", "but i will say this you take away the murder diamond that's between me and all of eternity i'm your man", "and that was our theory during this trial and we were entitled to exploit it in every single way we could", "and he's the only witness who could have testified to that that you were from calling except we well there was also billy ray miles we were limited on that but frankly we did it anyway and once i looked at the record i admit the government's right that there's not much prejudice there", "i just didn't want to concede it because i don't want you to ignore it because the government did appose what was clearly relevant across", "okay thank you", "two seconds i better stop there", "we're not going through this", "we've got rebuttals", "yes sir", "mr simmons", "thank you your honor", "my name is jim simmons i'm from the national bar", "i was involved with this case initially pretrial and then for medical reasons i had to leave before the trial started", "now representing clinton lewis on the appeal", "and i was listening to the argument and why is this case different and i think there's something that makes this case different from your typical conspiracy case in that it's a statement made by marcus brandon it said on crossexamination why do ten when you can do a three that's what his father told him", "that's what he admitted to on crossexamination", "and that's the mindset of the vast majority of these witnesses because this case was based almost entirely on cooperating witnesses", "there was no dna there are limited phone taps is this an efficiency point you're making no your honor it's a mindset", "it's a mindset of all of these witnesses there's nothing improper about it", "that's how conspiracies are tried right at least in my book how they are", "i think in this case it's different because usually the conspiracies are tried with cooperating witnesses plus", "in this case there's very little plus", "there's an incentive for the witnesses to testify based upon their expectations of 5ks", "and they admitted it and they were thoroughly crossexamined as to their expectation of receiving some benefit for their testimony", "and the fact that they've crossexamined a lot of them cause then the jury has an opportunity to evaluate whether they trust their testimony right that's correct but i'm going to go back", "this case is i'm arguing he went to bear because i don't think you can take each individual issue and raise and say that's reversible error", "but if you take the issue of the perjured testimony you say is it inconsistent or is it perjury i'm a little suspicious of the", "what do you mean by that do you mean that you could have something counts as reversible on a scale of one to ten when it's nine or over", "you're saying we just get a bunch of 7s we had four seven arguments and that gets you cumulative air even though none of them rose to nine or ten that is my understanding of the law your honor is that you can have a series of errors and among themselves individually do not amount for much of a error", "but taking them as a whole in the aggregate you did not have a fair trial", "that's exactly the so do you have to own not to be errors yes if it's not error then it's not going to be a cumulative error", "yeah", "i think that the government points that out and i think that's logical", "so a difficult harmlessness argument gets a little easier the more i", "okay yep yep", "the brady violation i'd like to go back to that because this is again it's the sequence of events where mr cartwright was interviewed back in june of eight according to the government he said he gave a gun traded a gun with clinton lewis", "he made arrangements for that gun then to be put in the hands of law enforcement", "the gun was in fact the murder weapon", "and then he reinterviewed prior to trial in december january and again in february and he says no i did not trade that gun with clinton lewis", "i traded that gun with mr brandon and that isn't like doesn't he say clinton lewis was there pardon me doesn't he say clinton lewis was there in other words even when he changes his testimony it's not completely exculpated", "according to mr cartwright he did not change his testimony", "cartwright said i did not say that to the agent the agents say he did so who do you believe i'm just saying the final version is still one that's not completely exculpated that is not the way i read the record", "because what he said is that it was mr brandon who had the gun that was trading with mr cartwright", "it was not mr lewis's gun it was the murderer weapon", "so yes i think he is saying that clinton lewis was not involved in that gun", "and the logical sequence is that gun whoever traded the gun was also the one who committed the murder which it doesn't say clinton lewis was there during the exchange yes okay", "and weren't you after the well you know it was delayed and the government is going to have to answer for that", "weren't you given the opportunity to recross both brandon and detective and we're getting the opportunity here and you opted not to do so and then opted not to do so", "okay", "i think that was the decision of the trial council which would they could could take it back and do an effective crossexamination", "weren't you give an opportunity to also didn't you get a chance to crossexamine cartwright once you got the new brady stuff cartwright was called as a witness but not clinton lewis okay", "and at the conclusion of the government proof", "the government did not call on mr cartwright", "he was called by mr lewis", "so the prejudice in here is the delay itself you ultimately got the brady materials and you were able to crossexamine cartwright or examine cartwright and you were given the opportunity to crossexamine brandon and detective jordan which is the same thing you would have been able to do had you gotten the brady material right you wouldn't have had the opportunity but i think to effectively crossexamine them after he has already been crossexamined and a direct examination of the brady material", "yeah she did so we had the opportunity but our position is it would not have had the same effect with the jury", "so mr chairman says keep your red lights on but i think i wanted to give you guys some flexibility", "so you probably have five more minutes", "would that be all right sure sure", "okay then okay go ahead", "the point that judge cook brought up about in fact the turner murder of mr lewis was acquitted out", "the point is he was convicted of kidnapping that resulted in murder and that got into the life sentence", "so it was the events at the kidnapping where we have the conflicting testimony", "what i think is credible to this is the acquittal the argument would have certainly been stronger as to the perjure testimony had he been convicted", "but frankly he wasn't convicted", "but it shows that the jury considered this", "the jury considered mr brandon's false testimony inconsistent testimony but brandon was the key witness in this case", "and through this entire three eight week trial brandon was the childhood person childhood buddy", "they ran together", "they did everything together with clinton lewis", "he is the critical witness against clinton lewis", "he had a deal his why do ten when you do a friend i mean that's his mindset that's the mindset of everybody", "but what's critical is the conflicting testimony that you had at the time of the abduction", "you had martin brandon's you had clarence broady quite a lot of", "also in version of the offense that you sit there and not reconcile with", "somebody in every detail", "this is what's tricky about this", "i mean you can have lots of perception issues where you don't remember this one feature or that the other person remembers that feature but if it doesn't go to the heart of it that's wrong right it does get to the heart of it", "because these are not misperceptions in details", "give us the biggest one", "he was naked he was bloody", "he was put into the back of a van and mr brandon was present he participated", "and mr brandon says i slapped him and i never saw him again the testimony was he was in arkansas and gettin back to the possession of mr brandon", "mr brandon cannot be telling the truth when he says i had nothing else to do with it", "somebody is lying to me", "somebody is it's not a mistake it's not a misperception", "it is somebody is lying and the government in this case offering 5ks to everybody is in fact for the credibility of each of these witnesses", "okay", "is there anything else you want to say the seventh issue again it was plain error", "we're not conceding that buddy and the transcript of this trial and proceedings i think over and over again you were saying the adversity between clinton lewis and martin lewis counsel", "and the two examples is mr whitelow was recalled after he had been examined by the government did not raise any issues pertaining to mr lewis", "he was crossexamined by mr lewis counsel who clinton lewis counsel who raised no issue regarding the abduction", "then he was crossexamined by martin lewis counsel who at that point raised issue of the abduction", "and then the court allowed the proof to be reopened and proof put in which would not have come in in a separate trial as to clinton lewis and his culpability in the abduction and the murder", "and the other is", "again after the close of all approved was called by counsel for martin lewis who again talked about clinton lewis participation in the abduction and the government asked only i think three questions", "are you sure that it was clinton lewis who abducted mr turner and that was the sole crossexamination", "i think the undue prejudice by the failure to bring up and we want that issue to be considered", "okay thank you", "thank you judge", "we'll hear from the government", "is it one of you or both of you or both of you both of us your honor may it please the court dave lieberman for the united states and joined at council table by assisting united state's attorney david pritchard", "i will be addressing the things related to the two lewis defendants", "mr pritchard will be addressing the sentencing claim by demetrius fields", "let me start off first with judge marbley's invitation to address the brady", "this relates to the pretrial statement of temarcus cartwright and the defense argues that our disclosure was unduly delayed in of brady", "as we said at the outset of our brief that as a matter of our own expectations and our own policy we should have disclosed sooner and we've been completely candid at the court", "the question in this case is did our midtrial disclosure violate the standards of brady and the answer is no", "brady requires disclosure at a time for which the defendants can make effective use of the evidence at trial", "and this loop here is one of my concerns about the timing of the disclosure", "the defense did not have those disclosures pretrial which they should have had", "these are not jencks material these are bradys", "yeah we are here and so you know in pretrials i think by all accounts are critical period", "because you prepare you know most of the persuasion is done or a great deal of it's done in opening statements", "they could have used these materials in the preparation of their opening", "why was this not disclosed so you are", "i encourage the court to take a look at the transcript of the brady hearing that's document one thousand three hundred and sixty", "okay", "and our trial team lays out in full its explanation", "number one they had initially planned to call cartwright to the stand", "number two they thought that his pretrial statements were covered by jencks", "can i stop you on the first point yes", "is that right that that's an explanation you're going to put someone on the stand why i understand why that helps you", "so you know what the trial team is looking at where a series of cases that this court has issued presser banks and the one discussed below is an unpublished decision called brazil", "where this court has said that where a statement falls under the jencks act and where the government intends to call that witness at trial the timing of the disclosure is defined by the jencks act", "now we didn't call cartwright to the stand", "and nothing in my brief and nothing in my argument today is relying on the jencks stand", "it's only brady", "and the brady asks going back to judge marbley's initial question did we disclose in time for the defense to make effective use of this at trial now on the point of crafting opening and closing arguments this court in says well when we're looking at brady prejudice and materiality we're looking at issues of guilt or innocence not matters of trial strategy", "but setting that point aside so just i'm at a really simple place", "okay", "i can't get off of it", "i just it seems really obvious to me if it's blatant material that would otherwise help the other side why is it at all irrelevant when you're going to call that person as a witness they need that crossexamination and everything else", "i agree it just doesn't make any sense to me", "i agree your honor", "the explanation that our trial team gave was based on statements that this court had made in presser and banks and brazil were there was no prejudice because something else happened", "i really said well if you're calling the witness it doesn't matter and that just doesn't make any sense to me", "so i needed to crossexamine the witness", "so the the statement in banks was if it's covered by the jencks act jencks act overrides brady with respect to the timing of the disclosure", "well then i'm throwing it out", "which is why i'm not at all relying on those cases and not adopting the arguments in those cases i'm we said this all are prejudice i just would've thought this is a prejudice issue", "not a there was no brady problem we should no your honor these tests of radius did we disclose in time for the defendant to make effective use of the trial that's the question of whether a brady violation occurred", "that's the test of brady and the requirements of brady don't ever set under your paradigm", "because brady is pretrial disclosure and they filed a brady motion", "you were under an obligation not only to disclose to them but to disclose at", "but i guess you could argue that but with disclosure is not related to government trial tactical strategy", "it means when you discovery if you don't have it when it's asked for but you later come into possession of it that's disclosure", "you had it when they asked for it you made a tactical decision not to disclose it because it gave you a benefit to disclose it later at the jencks and you withheld it", "so what do we do when you do something like that your honor to discourage you from doing it again because i know that you know it's the legal move", "i know that you know that that was wrong", "and that's why we can get candid with the court at the outset", "that this should have been disclosed earlier", "the situation and i could be misremembering but the situation that we have here is actually very similar to the facts in banks", "i believe in that case there was a pretrial statement given by one of the government's witnesses saying that he did not remember the defendant being involved in the drug deal", "and that's where the entire line of arguments that our trial team was relying on came out of the banks case", "i am not relying on those arguments here", "the question under and i know we're engaging can i just ask you something that why can't tell me what is wrong with this way of thinking about the case", "we do not need to address whether it was a varied violation from finding the prejudice", "i completely agree with that", "so why i mean it sounds like you're asking us to split a lot of hairs and lines that i'm not aren't intuitive to me", "and the other part of it seems incredibly easy", "i was trying to address i think no no i'm not i'm not complaining", "i'm just i'm putting a question i get my question", "my question is why am i bothered with why should i bother with this when i have a prejudice inquiry as well you don't have to bother with it", "you can focus entirely on the materiality to resolve the disputes here", "materiality being the defendants must show a reasonable probability that had we disclosed this sooner the results of the proceeding would have been different", "right", "and i have not heard any fact any argument any piece of evidence or testimony that was not presented to the jury as a result of our midtrial disclosure", "and i have not heard any argument winking any of the counts of conviction that either of these defendants faced to cartwright's statement", "i'll walk through both of the defendants one by one", "martin lewis cartwright's statement addressed the forty five caliber handgun used to kill turner", "martin lewis was not in any way inculpated in that episode", "we didn't charge him with that or allege that he participated in that", "so the statement is unquestionably irrelevant to the jury's assessment of his culpability", "and clinton lewis this was one of the members of the panel brought up earlier", "this statement or directly on count three the murder of turner in a direct hearing and the jury acquitted on that", "i think at this stage on appeal it's up to the other side to come clean yes", "i agree wholeheartedly with what judge sutton just said", "yes", "and i agree with your analysis", "i have a different concern however", "i don't want to see us eviscerate brady with death by a thousand cuts", "so yeah", "because the court the district court was sage enough to kind of remedy the mistake that you created by this late brady disclosure", "and so as a district judge i and i think as a court of appeal we have an interest in brady not being eviscerated", "so how what can we do to ensure that this doesn't happen again your honor when you're completely free to repeat the government's concession here that we should have disclosed this earlier and that in that our failure to do so while regrettable did not violate brady", "in terms of all the analysis including the materiality analysis", "we have been very forthright that this was exculpatory and that we should have disclosed pretrial", "and i'm not sure what more i can offer you", "i can also say that this is something that the department and the us attorney in this case treats very seriously and the us attorney has individually addressed this episode with members of the trial team", "i'm satisfied with thank you", "you may move on to another issue", "okay thank you your honor", "if i could move on to the claim that the government presented perjured testimony", "counseled by a friend on the other side for clinton lewis focused on the testimony related to the turner kidnapping", "the government had two main witnesses clarence broady and demetrius fields which walked through each step of how turner was abducted from the streets of memphis driven around for two days in the van and then dropped off at a stash house and was later killed", "both broady and fields implicated marcus brandon in the abduction", "wasn't council's right", "we did call marcus brandon to the stand", "marcus brandon says i was there at the initial abduction but i wasn't a part of it", "i saw them actually slapped the victim and then i walked away so that is the discrepancy is a degree of participation", "broady and fields thought that brandon was centrally involved", "brandon admits he was there", "says he played a minor role in it and did not otherwise participate in that", "that is a discrepancy", "that is something that defendants are allowed to use and they did use to try to impeach marcus brandon's credibility at trial", "but it does not establish perjury", "it is an inconsistency courts including this court has said that inconsistencies in government testimony do not amount to perjury the defendants have an additional burden", "they have to show materiality", "what did these discrepancies regarding the testimony excuse me", "what did these discrepancies or how did these discrepancies effect the verdict and the answer is it's very hard to see in this case", "because although we had a number of witnesses and some of them had individual discrepancies as to who were these secondary players were everybody said that clinton lewis was involved", "everybody there's no discrepancy on that point", "and then the final point at any perj of any claim that the government's perjury they had to show that we knew that we were doing this", "and again courts have been very clear that the fact that we have witnesses who offer inconsistent statements will not impute knowledge of perjury knowledge of false feed to the government", "this is what trials are for", "sometimes our witnesses do not their memories do not align completely", "we present our case and we leave it up to the jury to decide", "the district court here judge mays gave very extensive instruction to the jury as to how to evaluate credibility", "and there's every reason to believe that what are you say about the variance arguments well at first i would say it's not preserved", "there was no claim at trial about variance", "and so we're here after playing here", "the second point that i would say about variance is that the standards of the defendants is exceedingly high", "they had to show that a variance only occurs when the trial evidence can only be construed as showing multiple conspiracies", "sort of like a sufficiency standard", "and they've not met that burden", "and that's really hard to do", "so why is it just a sufficiency test i think people's eyes glaze over when they hear the word variance but they don't glaze over when they hear the word sufficiency", "i think it is very much a citizen's arrest", "uhhuh", "in a light most favorable to the government", "but there's a third obstacle so just to so if here there's a global conspiracy alleged to claim a variance no there wasn't", "there were lots of conspiracies", "you're saying it's a complete variance response to show that there was sufficient evidence to show the global big conspiracy", "yes", "that is the discussion", "yes it's actually really hard to find a successful variance objection in a rico case", "i had a time of it", "and that's because this is not an ordinary eight hundred and forty one drug distribution", "is this a single chain or is this a web when congress passed rico it designed to target conspiracies to engage in enterprises that were involved in multifaceted racketeering activities", "so one person may be involved in drug trafficking", "one person may be involved in kidnapping", "there's a whole list of them in the statute", "and the question is have we connected it back up the line to the enterprise and the answer here is clearly in spite all of this court's guidepost", "everybody here had a common goal they were working for the organization to traffic drugs throughout the southeastern united states", "the nature of this scheme was incredibly complex and interlocking had to get the drugs from mexico across the border to memphis", "you needed truck drivers people to unload the trucks people to distribute the money to stash houses and get it out to the community security like martin lewis to protect the organization's interests and then get the money back to mexico", "the government detailed where each defendant in this case where they fell into that line", "and then the third point is similar to the same that the participants overlapped here because this is all about moving the product down the line to the consumer", "by all those guideposts and under a variance standard a sufficiency standard this and under plain error review this conviction on count one should stand", "i think we understand your arguments as to the lewis's", "is there anything else you feel compelled to say based on what your friends on the other side are saying i am happy to rest on my brief for all the other claims and turn it over to my fellow", "okay thank you mr lieberman", "thank you", "thank you mr lieberman", "so mr pritchard", "yes your honor", "so i wonder if you heard some of the questioning from the bench on the fields appeal", "i did", "i don't really have anything to add", "i'm happy to questions", "that's an excellent argument", "thank you", "all right we'll hear rebuttal", "since the government submitted it i've got nothing specific to rebutt as far as argument i will submit it", "okay thank you", "and mcafee you want to go next thank you your honor", "what really happened to marcus turner he was abducted beaten hauled to a house in a car driven around for two days and then he was tied up ridiculed beaten some more left on the floor and ultimately put into a van again by someone taken to mississippi or killed in tennessee and taken to mississippi or taken to mississippi and killed", "somebody abducted him held him hurt him and killed him", "here are these small discrepancies", "mr brandon says well i witnessed the abduction saw clinton don't need to be one person so your theory is that one person who did all of those steps well if you listen to the different versions you said once somebody did no no you're right", "and several people no you're right", "i suppose but some and maybe a different person did this aspect we know the slapping occurred but no no you're right you were right", "i don't need to don't know for sure", "i don't mean to minimize anything anyone did in this", "in fact what i want to do is point out that that's what each of these people are testifying to", "brandon says well i witnessed the abduction saw clinton beat him", "never saw turner again law enforcement prior to trial did confront mr brandon with the fact that the other witnesses were saying different things", "now anyone that's ever practiced law dealing with us attorneys knows that that usually means you're invited to leave with your client when they're saying when they are test when they are minimizing their conduct", "what does mr broady say he says clinton lewis based upon marcus brandon abducted this man hauled him to a van", "broady turned turner over to clinton lewis marcus brandon and terry peete mr weibo admitted that he participated in the abduction released turner to terry peete and marcus brandon", "mr peete says not involved in the abduction", "turner was released to clinton lewis and marcus brandon", "i was not involved in the killing all of those things have to do with marcus turner's abduction and they are every one of them trying to minimize what they themselves did when it comes to this horrendous crime to marcus turner", "but these are also witnesses that are essential to the government's case against martin lewis", "and so when you ask why does this matter when this these inconsistencies as the government puts them one of them's telling the truth about it and one of them is not", "now on several different points what about their point that supports perjury they have to know ahead of time that that's what there's falseness", "and the fact that they come out as inconsistencies doesn't prove anything ahead of time", "but they knew about it before the trial", "and they put it on", "when you put a witness on that you know is telling something false then you're supporting perjury", "did they know it was actually false or did they know it was inconsistent if the let the jury sort it out", "okay if the question is was the bike yellow or was it red that's inconsistent", "if it is mr mcafee were you there holding the pistol and one says yes and one says no that's not an inconsistency anymore", "i wasn't there during the abduction", "i wasn't there during the torture of and i wasn't there during the killing", "mr peete is lying or these other witnesses are lying", "one of those two things is both inconsistent and perjury", "and if we're going to believe that the system is going to make sense we have to rely upon there's not cameras everywhere", "we don't have them", "and the only thing you can do is to take what juries find with sworn testimony because it's supposed to be meaningful when you put your hand on the bible and swear to it and that's only meaningful if we are sifting before we ask the jury to just sift through these things", "it's not good enough to say well i know they had a lot to look at over that six and a half weeks but the jury blessed it so we're done and it's just inconsistencies yes that is good enough when it's well i can't remember if his his suit was it navy was it dark blue or was it black that's an inconsistency", "but if one of you says mr mcafee argued before me today the other one says well he didn't make much of an argument and the other of you says he wasn't there at all that's not inconsistent it's wrong one is wrong", "well it often too depends on the lateral perception", "if i'm color blind you know i might think it's green", "you're seven might think it's gray and blue", "we're just inconsistent but and i agree with you we all agree it's red", "yeah okay i agree but that would just be inconsistent", "all right", "but marty isn't here one of em is wrong", "thank you", "all right thank you mr mcafee", "appreciate it mr simmons come up", "your honor i have nothing further to add to this point", "okay well thanks to all five of you for your arguments some longer than others", "we appreciate and thank you for the briefs", "and mr stengel mr mcafee mr simmons i see you're all three court appointed which we really are grateful for", "i hope your clients are grateful for", "it's a real benefit to us and to the system", "and we did this when we were in practice and realized how little you get paid for it", "so thanks very much for what you guys did", "great work today so thank you", "thank you your honor"], "name": ["gov.uscourts.ca6.13-5150/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca6_DOT_13-5150/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca6_DOT_13-5150_DOT_2014-06-25_DOT_flac_00000.flac", 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-{"audio_document_id": "gov.uscourts.ca7.19-2615.2020-10-26.flac", "identifier": "gov.uscourts.ca7.19-2615", "text_document_id": "gov.uscourts.ca7.19-2615.2020-10-26.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [3713, 833, 1870, 1200, 8089, 16231, 21160, 6790, 17570, 9403, 3100, 22900, 5990, 15650, 14348, 10585, 22862, 5973, 2120, 5783, 12490, 5970, 10490, 9810, 2400, 2220, 5340, 11150, 4580, 5110, 8490, 14830, 1970, 2880, 5880, 6370, 5180, 10980, 4540, 6020, 3970, 2520, 8700, 2430, 6150, 13283, 2207, 19610, 5140, 9880, 2570, 1910, 6030, 11060, 2170, 6713, 2103, 3137, 2153, 2080, 3790, 3320, 7260, 11800, 11070, 5520, 21290, 5000, 2573, 3710, 6880, 7150, 6743, 13467, 1720, 8313, 8320, 10720, 2338, 18402, 9290, 1753, 1610, 9350, 14230, 833, 8097, 7180, 6640, 5310, 5120, 10150, 2220, 5403, 5000, 3880, 5240, 20070, 11806, 13464, 4660, 22450, 3340, 12813, 4690, 8450, 3710, 6900, 2940, 11270, 6198, 14842, 7540, 4100, 16130, 13863, 4161, 7010, 10980, 3750, 4700, 8460, 12800, 19870, 3150, 3630, 10680, 18660, 4703, 6583, 5840, 1550, 6083, 15245, 11260, 5660, 1850, 9390, 11560, 7470, 2592, 12958, 5970, 5320, 890, 3910, 4750, 3710, 8780, 3480, 2160, 1500, 2680, 3230, 7410, 11500, 9660, 3930, 1160, 1750], "label": ["next in the case of united states against beltranleon", "mr blacken", "morning your honors council", "may it please the court", "the sentencing hearing in this case was not a typical sentencing hearing and this is not a typical appeal on a sentencing", "this is a sentencing that i don't think there's any better term for it than it went off the rails so much so that as part of the sentencing hearing the district court considered inappropriate and irrelevant information as part of the sentencing", "for example the district court considered the number of people that it stated thirty thousand people in mexico killed during related to drug violence in general speculated about the murders of members of the media by cartels although not specifically identified in the cartel that the defendant was associated with", "the court so mr blacken can i ask you a question though what really bothers me about this there's some very troubling things", "i agree with you in that respect in the sentencing transcript but when all was said and done the district court gave mr beltran leon a sentence of if i'm remembering three hundred months", "and i wonder if you have alerted your client to the fact that if he wins as it were resentencing he might be worse off", "judge we have discussed that with mr beltran", "and particularly in the sense of one of the issues here is there are of course all of these troubling comments and we don't know the the defense takes a position that while it's clear from the record that these troubling comments impacted the sentence we don't know the extent to which they did or the extent to which the judge either accepted or rejected the allegations of torture", "i think it's pretty easy to figure that one out to be honest", "the government asked for thirty five years on a guideline sentence of life and the court then sentenced beltranleon to twenty eight years", "if a court wasn't crediting him based on his torture argument there's nothing else here that would account for that sevenyear break", "judge that it seems fairly clear that the court was willing to give him some break even though it found the claim not entirely credible", "what more do you think the court was required to say and i really want to second judge wood's first question to you because it is very possible that this could go back and of course it will go back to a different judge because judge castillo isn't there any longer", "and one of those judges could give him life", "judge let me respond to your first point", "and of course we can if the court would like us to be doubly sure speak to mr beltran about that issue again", "but the other reason that our position was he should've gotten less than the twenty eight years that he got was because of relative comparative sentencing for defendants and the need to avoid unwarranted sentencing disparities", "one of the individuals who testified at mr beltran's sentencing was manuel valencia", "that gentlemen received a sentence of less than mr beltran even though and had not cooperated at that time he ended up blind plea without a cooperation plea", "and he on the witness stand before judge castillo admitted to thousands and thousands more kilograms of drugs of all kinds than mr beltran", "he was a much higher member of the cartel", "he was considered partners with chapo", "he was so influential and wealthy that he loaned three million to chapo", "and when we argued to the district court that of course mr beltran's sentence should start lower than his based solely on unwarranted sentencing disparities and comparative sentencing", "what judge castillo says is well i can't get into the mind of judge bousman", "that would completely rule out the requirement of avoiding unwarranted sentencing disparities", "and it also brings up a salient point here which is we cannot get into the mind of judge castillo", "i think the primary difference between our brief and the government's brief is the government suggests that it knows the reasons or the basis for the sentencing and believes that the ones that we're complaining about were not bases for the sentencing", "i frankly don't know how they know that", "we haven't taken the position that we know definitively", "our position is that you cannot tell it from all appearances from the transcript", "and frankly from being there in person it did appear that all of these troubling comments related to the sentencing", "why do i say that they were all part of the same statement about sentencing", "the judge listed several things and its head in whatever three pages it is that he announces the sentence such as mr beltran did not cooperate", "mr beltran's acceptance of responsibility maybe wasn't as good as the judge had hoped for", "mr beltran was convicted and found to have distributed a large quantity of drugs", "all of those things the government says of course that was the basis for the sentencing", "and that's what the judge relied on", "but things like the personal hurt that the judge feels every day based on his ethnicity which is in the same section", "it's one of the thoughts he expresses right before sentencing", "the judge says well disregard that as a side comment about that", "they say that disregard the issues about the mexican media members who may have been killed and all of those sorts of things or holding mr beltran accountable for all drug violence in mexico for some unknown period of time", "i think we're right here", "and frankly i think my personal view is that a judge who accepts the allegations of the serious psychological and physical terrible torture here and also engages in comparative sentencing particularly with regard to mr valencia could very well come to a lower sentence", "mr beltran was not a very high ranking member of the cartel", "he was found to have engaged in suggestion that he was the kind of person who could have ordered cartels or cartel people who engage in violence against the government", "all of these were extraneous issues", "you know i been doing this for awhile now", "i've never been involved in a case where a judge waved around some unknown piece of paper that he was relying on her sentencing", "and i've certainly never been involved in a case where a judge referenced its own ethnicity and the personal hurt that it held as a result of cartel violence", "so i understand the court's concerns", "and like i said we can discuss that with mr beltran again but this is a case that cries out for a resentencing", "and i think that's what should happen here", "i see that i'm running into my rebuttal time so i'll save the rest", "certainly mr blacken miss alex hankes", "yes judge may it please the court", "my name is georgia alex hankes and i represent the united states", "this court should affirm the defendant's below guidelines sentence", "it was well justified in light of the section thirty five fifty three eight factors expressly considered by the district court", "this was not a sentencing hearing that went off the rails and we can tell what the district court considered when he sentenced mr beltran looking at the express language that the court used", "but miss background noise drowns out speaker i have to say going over the line to say in effect i'm of mexican descent", "i feel personal hurt when i see this number one", "and when literally as the record reflects waving around undisclosed statistics about the severity of the drug cartel behavior in mexico implying that the reason that the torture took place was revenge not just to get information", "these are not your daily fare for sentencing review", "i find them all terribly troubling", "judge if i could address each of those concerns in turn", "first with respect to the comment that the judge made the reference to his own heritage and the personal hurt that he felt", "from the government's perspective the court was bringing in his personal experience as a way to highlight the severity of the offense", "but why is that and in particular okay exactly what we're not allowed to do exactly what we're not allowed to do", "i think i would disagree why is it any different from the judge who said you know you've been dealing drugs in my neighborhood and i used to walk down the street and people like you have ruined it you know that was bringing personal experience", "and we said that's out of the record", "that's not the way we try to achieve the best we can impartial justice in this country", "and judge i believe what you're referring to are a line of cases figaroa smith there's a wilson case as well", "and i understand again the court's concern but that sentencing hearing here differed from those cases and in particular it's because of the nature of the offense the defendant here committed", "i don't agree with you at all", "i think if you were going to get anywhere with this you have to admit that that remark was out of line that you can't be let's take today's world you know where there are occasionally riots that get out of hand when certain incidents happen the murder of george floyd or whatever you want to say", "you wouldn't want a judge of a particular ethnicity saying i'm going to impose a sentence because you know i'm one of that group", "that's not the way we do it", "i don't disagree with that judge", "but i think here what judge castillo was trying to do is draw attention to the number of mexicans who have died as a result of cartelrelated violence", "so are we supposed to take judicial notice of that is that something that's so far beyond dispute that he can wave an article around that he never shows anybody i think your honor here defense counsel agreed with the courts proposition", "under duress", "i mean if you read part of the transcript the judge is hammering and defense counsel was trying to placate him saying yeah you know there's a big problem", "but he's certainly not saying you know i waived the right to see whatever it is you're relying on", "judge i think if it was one offhand comment by one defense lawyer i might be inclined to agree", "but here mr beltran is represented by at least two different lawyers at the sentencing hearing", "both of whom have agreed i know what you're talking about but i just i don't read it that way", "i mean the judge is really hammering him when defense counsel tries to say for instance when he says why do you think the torture happened the defense counsel says to get information", "he says no you know blah blah blah", "you know it's because so many members of the semar group have been killed", "and defense counsel responds the first defense lawyer responds by agreeing with that proposition", "the second defense lawyer responds by agreeing with that proposition again", "there was evidence that was presented at the sentencing hearing regarding the violent nature of the cartel", "and i think the reason why there isn't a significant dispute as to whether thirty thousand mexicans have died as a result of cartelrelated violence or whether mexican military personnel have died as a result of cartel related violence is because those inferences were supported by the evidence that were presented at the sentencing hearing", "and i think that is why to date the defense counsel has yet to what evidence has supported those statements of the district court judge i'm sorry judge i didn't hear you", "what evidence supported those estimates of the situation mexico assuming for the sake of argument right now that the situation in mexico was relevant to mr beltranleon's sentencing", "there was no evidence that those particular numbers were supported by it", "there was evidence though that the cartel was engaged in violent operations but district court credited testimony that armed bodyguards appeared at business meetings that sicarios were employed hitmen were employed by the cartel that one of mr beltran's coconspirators ordered the murder of thirteen to fifteen individuals as a result of his drug trafficking operations", "but the district court chose not to credit some of that", "and despite the fact that the district court didn't rely on the alleged murder in i forget which city you know your brief keeps mentioning it as though it was a fact that district court found", "judge i apologize if that was the impression that the government's brief left", "i believe the government's position is that there was evidence that indicated that mr beltran was involved in a murder that took place in quiacon", "i agree that the district court did not actually find that he committed that murder", "the district court did make findings that the cartel of which the defendant he also found was a high ranking leader", "i'm not sure why defense counsel disputes that", "the district court did find that mr beltran was a high ranking leader of the cartel that this was a sophisticated those were the district court's words a sophisticated drug trafficking transnational operation", "and the district court found that the use of firearms was used by the cartel for safety and protection", "and so from there i think it's a fair inference that the district court drew to conclude from those findings that the cartel of which again the defendant was a high ranking member was responsible for violence in mexico", "and the district court referenced that violence in mexico in the course of referencing his own personal background and experience", "but this interference drowns out speaker judge rovner i think has a question", "the court clearly implied that beltran did not testify about the torture because counsel was unwilling to put him on the stand where he might lie or hide the truth", "where did the court correct it's improper inference that beltran did not testify for reasons quote known to any lawyer in the business", "i'm a lawyer in the business and i don't know what he's talking about", "and i agree judge that the district court wasn't clear did not clarify that comment in that instance", "later on however in the transcript and it's in particular on page two hundred and ninety three of the transcript the district court expressly says that he did not hold the defendant's decision to testify against him", "and he says that he understands that he has a right not to testify", "and i think that interference drowns out speaker as i recall that is true judge", "but i think that this court can still credit that explanation that because in particular because the district court acted consistent with this explanation", "it credited the defendant's allegations of torture it treated it as mitigation despite the lack of testimony and the holes in the affidavit and it then awarded him a downward departure as a result of that mitigation", "and so when the explanation is consistent did judge castillo ask defense counsel whether the principle arguments in mitigation had been addressed we've warned courts repeatedly to do so", "i just didn't see that inquiry in the record", "i don't believe it is in the record either judge rovner", "i do believe though that judge castillo did address the principal argument in mitigation which was the defendant's experience or allegations excuse me the defendant's allegations of torture", "i think that the district court in particular in his colloquy with the second defense lawyer understood expressed agreement understanding that the argument that defendant was advancing was that the torture he experienced should be analogized to an argument that a mitigating factor could be the conditions of confinement", "and so i think the record is clear that the district court did consider that argument and mitigation", "and unless there are any further questions at this time the government would ask that the defendant's sentence be affirmed", "all right thank you miss anything further mr blacken yes briefly your honor", "so the court is correct", "there was no concession by the defense that a specific number is being quoted by judge castillo were correct", "it was an effort to steer the discussion back to you know the issue regarding the torture and so there was some general agreement but yes mexican military people have been killed and so have people in mexico but the numbers were never routine", "but notably the effort was to steer the court back to somewhat more reasonable thought about why mexican officials might use a lot of force when arresting someone", "the court the district court never concluded whether or not mr beltran was tortured", "you can read it in the judge's conclusion", "he says something along the lines of i you know he's presented some evidence of that but it'll take a greater power than me to decide if it happened or not", "and then also says i'm going to give a modest downward adjustment or modest modification of the sentence for what may have happened the judge never decided whether it happened or not", "and that's one of the ways that we it's of course impossible to tell whether all these extraneous comments affected it", "the fifth amendment issue was frankly stunning", "i was going to say what judge rovner has already said which is there is no consensus in the defense bar as to why you don't call your client as in a case in every instance there is no one thing that all lawyers know", "i will tell you the primary reason is at least in trial is because you think your argument is better that the government didn't prove the case", "there is no consensus among the bar that oh i know my client is lying or he's going to lie", "that's why he won't call him", "and the judge never retracted that adverse inference", "of course it was he did make the comment about the fifth amendment saying i didn't hold that against him", "that was after the sentencing i think post all of their supervisor", "these conditions and of course the government's prompt these facts that the judge was relying on and waving around these numbers", "we don't know if some of them were before mr beltran was born", "we don't know if some of them were when he was ten years old", "we know nothing about that", "the government complaints that we haven't it", "how would we go about doing that we don't know the source of it", "and i would point out that the judge did attach some articles to his ruling that the case could not be dismissed as a result", "the one article for amnesty international presented reasons for why torture occurs and reasons were to get information from people and for public conflicts", "there was no so the idea of it's done as revenge for mexican killed is not even in the one article that the judge cited in something that he published", "i see that my time is up and i thank the court for its attention", "thank you mr blacken", "the case 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-{"audio_document_id": "gov.uscourts.ca9.02-17057.2004-02-10.flac", "identifier": "gov.uscourts.ca9.02-17057", "text_document_id": "gov.uscourts.ca9.02-17057.2004-02-10.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [1920, 1150, 7770, 5343, 6290, 7630, 7060, 12000, 7180, 6980, 13170, 4461, 6899, 890, 14723, 12340, 2760, 4920, 2094, 1199, 18470, 3396, 3138, 6169, 3697, 1160, 2894, 3206, 2700, 918, 8342, 9550, 9950, 3960, 5290, 3450, 4013, 11614, 45651, 1299, 18170, 1600, 3410, 2520, 28410, 833, 1227, 12770, 2120, 2770, 4617, 7658, 1250, 1675, 12080, 17580, 3050, 9813, 8393, 3317, 11500, 11633, 4430, 17270, 8900, 6980, 6350, 5990, 2040, 9289, 2825, 1750, 6610, 12350, 4440, 833, 12510, 6480, 8370, 6800, 7760, 3600, 8293, 3037, 6950, 1310, 11540, 2030, 9840, 18090, 5480, 4571, 2248, 14531, 1960, 9560, 1900, 1870, 9850, 1680, 2410, 1690, 8490, 8917, 1750, 10620, 4698, 12100, 1250, 2950, 6410, 6823, 833, 833, 15972, 3319, 1540, 1259, 1653, 3080, 17508, 5261, 2979, 2290, 11770, 6590, 2300, 5381, 833, 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6260, 5530, 3470, 4930, 14823, 5840, 3970, 7050, 2000, 5110, 3050, 3640, 1280, 2840, 2350, 2570, 11080, 2440, 984, 5866, 1160, 2510, 10263, 5150, 5640, 2160, 1420, 7090, 2160, 7200, 3150, 3300, 7220, 10190, 3270, 4140, 2330, 3820, 3320, 833, 11927, 10540, 12230, 11870, 2110, 1820, 990, 833, 1000, 833, 977, 930, 4240, 2460, 2153, 7437, 9995, 11860, 1980, 1840, 2282, 3698, 7580, 16230, 3020, 3900, 3360, 8015, 2703, 1670, 1083, 17034, 3620, 1370, 2770, 2910, 2060, 2006, 917, 4000], "label": ["good morning your honors may i please the court", "my name is richard faber", "i represent plaintiff jim cherry individually on behalf of a similarly situated class of persons identified in our complaint", "i'm here with joseph dolan and we also represented mr cherry in the trial court", "we submit that the district court erred in granting the motion to dismiss for five primary reasons", "first that the court resolved disputed reasonable inferences in defendant's favor instead of plaintiff's favor", "second that the contract is reasonably susceptible to the interpretation proffered by plaintiff", "third that the court erred in declining to consider how the parties america west and bank of america interpreted ten years of prior affinity marketing agreements", "fourth that the court erred in deciding the plaintiff did not occupy third party beneficiary status", "and fifth the court erred in deciding that the plaintiff did not occupy third party beneficiary status to assert a claim in that status", "he was precluded from asserting his statutory claims for relief and the portion of the breach of contract claim for good faith and fair dealing as a cardholder", "mr farber can you help me with regard to the third party beneficiary issue", "as i understand it your client is claiming rights under the agreement between bank of america and america west", "yes your honor", "and i looked at i guess the relevant portion of that contract and it seemed to me that all it does is talk about the rates at which bank of america would offer the credit card program through america west", "and i'm wondering why did judge tilbert err in finding that because that is a contract that's between those two parties it doesn't erner to the benefit of any of the subsequent card holders", "yes before i answer that let me back up a second", "i'd like to allot nine minutes for the four claims for relief six minutes for attorney's fees", "you're going to have to keep track of your own time", "all right five minutes for rebuttal", "primarily because the contract specifies that the rates precise numerical rates that are indicated on exhibit b to the exhibit cannot be changed unless ninety days prior written notice is provided to america west", "now that's not a change of a rate that america west is paying", "that's a change of a rate that the cardholder is paying", "and we point out to the court that nowhere below in either the motion to dismiss responses and replies", "yeah but america west i mean i fly america west frequently", "they sell tshirts", "they sell these credit cards at the airport", "they wanna know when would the rate changes", "this is a very competitive thing for", "absolutely", "we are not denying that america west is a beneficiary of the agreement for reasons that judge tilburg said", "you know he pointed out that america west has an interest and a competitive and commercially reasonable rate being charged as is required by the agreement as well", "but the agreement also says that the rates attached on exhibit b cannot be changed without prior ninety day written notice", "now their position is well but it only says intends to offer", "so if it says intends to offer then that's sort of an aspirational goal", "and there's nothing mandatory about that", "we would respond with three points", "first the ninety day notice provision becomes meaningless an illusory if the intent offer provision is only interpreted as an aspirational goal", "to what rate would the first ninety day notice provision to america west apply if not to the rates specified on exhibit b in the january two thousand and one agreement was there any evidence in the record that at the time that the card was issued to mr cherry and to the other putative members of the class that they were given the usual insert that comes with my credit cards that i never read that tells me all the terms and conditions including the rate that's gonna be charged and it also warns me that if there are changes in any of the terms and conditions that by my subsequent use of that card i am by that act agreeing to the changes in the term", "absolutely", "and there was evidence that that was the way that the rates were communicated yes to the card holder and we also alleged that the rates that were communicated to cardholders during the approximately ten years of that relationship were the rates that were specified in the agreements between bank of america and america west", "they weren't pulled out of the air", "they weren't made up pursuant to some claim of sole discretion", "they were the rates contained in the contracts", "but as i understand your argument the argument is that under the third party beneficiary theory that if those rates became more favorable as between bank of america and america west that your client was entitled to the lower interest rate even though he was operating under what i guess is a direct contract between the card holder and the credit card issuer which states what the interest rate will be", "so yes", "long as he continues to use the card", "yes and our contention in that regard with all inferences being resolved in plaintiff's favor is that the parties understood that that rate lower or higher was governed by the terms of the agreement", "and again back to the ninety day notice period", "of which agreements which agreement though that's what i'm trying to get at", "well in this case we're alleging they didn't comply with the terms of the two thousand and one agreement", "you're conceding that they complied with the terms of the direct agreement between the credit card holder and the issuer", "yes", "okay", "yes but that they had no authority to charge any rate other than the rate specified in the agreement with america west pursuant to the ninety day notice provision", "we would agree with defendant entirely if the contract did not have a requirement that before changing the rates in the agreements between america west and bank of america that bank of america provide america west ninety days written notice of that change", "because then they would in fact their reading of the agreement is fine", "but under the rules of construction that say when interpreting an agreement all provisions should be interpreted in a manner that give meaning to all provisions", "if we simply stick with the cardholder agreement itself then the ninety day notice provision has no meaning because bank of america has sole discretion to do whatever it wants", "but the ninety day notice provision benefits america west", "i mean unless we buy your thirdparty beneficiary theory it doesn't matter visavis the card holder unless he is truly a third party beneficiary", "and i guess i'm trying to if we rule in your favor what will that do to the practice of car dealerships that sell cars where the financing rate today is nine", "but two months from now you know it's lower let's say it's five", "does that mean that somebody who bought the car at nine is now entitled to have the interest rate lowered on the car because gmac is offering better interest rates down the road no if that car dealership had a marketing relationship for instance with the phoenix suns", "and the phoenix suns sent business to that car dealership pursuant to an agreement between the phoenix suns and the car dealership", "and within that agreement it said here are the interest rates that you will charge these customers in financing", "and you may not change those interest rates until you provide us phoenix suns ninety days notice of any change", "that those are the rates and that are applicable absent that notice which we've alleged didn't occur", "now as to the broader", "negotiations for the car two months down the road the dealer says i will sell you this car but the interest rate is going to be at you know fifteen", "and then i either buy the car or i don't", "i use the card or i don't", "understanding with the warning in my contract that the interest rate that applies is gonna be a higher interest rate", "well again all of that is fine except there's no authority in this case for bank of america to issue cards to any america west customers absent this affinity marketing relationship", "here's another what is this are we talking about arizona law here yes ma'am", "okay", "what is the strongest case under arizona law that involves a situation remotely like this well there's a threepart test to determine whether a party is a third party beneficiary", "we would throw out this argument to the court with respect to the cardholders", "yeah but what is the strongest case in arizona that recognizes a third party beneficiary relationship in a situation remotely like this", "i would suggest to date it's the namm case which we cite which is very similar in this respect", "you've got an agreement between a hospital and blue cross that has nothing to do directly with the actual patient subscribers", "within that agreement pricing terms were set", "and what the court held was in mayhem that the actual insureds were third party beneficiaries for two reasons", "one they said they were named numerous times throughout the agreement", "two they said the effect of the agreement was to preclude the hospital from charging more right", "than what's specified in the agreement", "here the effect of the agreement is to preclude bank of america from charging more than the specified in those pricing terms absent ninety days written notice to america west", "and we would just throw out this general point", "but isn't there a difference in namm because in namm i am a patient or an enrollee of the blue cross medical program", "and i am promised that if i check into the hospital that whatever the rates are that are being reimbursed by blue cross for the services provided to me i'm not gonna have to pay any more than what my insurer pays for the covered services", "and that promise was not made as i understand this record to the credit card holder", "but the rates being charged are rates set in a contract between blue cross and the hospital", "but its a different contract mr farber", "and i mean blue cow brown cow you know if the terms of the contract are different i'm not sure how you are supported by that well here's what we would say just concerning that the contract generally", "there is no provision", "any provision in the contract between america west and bank of america that can be meaningfully implemented without the participation of the cardholders", "that goes to marketing and retention", "it goes to issuing applications", "it goes to bank of america and america west paying each other without the direct intentional and primary participation of the card holders which is the standard of the threepart test", "that agreement means nothing", "the cardholders have to be involved", "in that sense we think they are primary", "if you're involved by continuing to use the credit card but in not continuing is there any reason by simply being an active card holder", "is there any reason why you couldn't have canceled the card and gotten a new one or the new rate no and my brother who's an economist he does that all the time", "well and that was our point below", "that what they argued below was that their intention in this contract and that they complied with it was who's they bank of america", "that what the parties intended was that this eight hundred and forty nine was available", "and that what the card holders should have done all existing cardholders like mr cherry should have called the bank of america canceled their card filled out the new application with all of the downside to all of that process", "that we set forth in our brief", "and we don't think that was their commercially reasonable intent", "we think their but isn't that why my mailbox is full of credit card i mean i get these things all the time", "ya know if you sign up with the first national bank of south carolina you get a better rate than them there balances", "yeah", "absolutely", "except in this case there would be no reason for bank of america and america west to negotiate a contract where they decided that okay how should we handle this let's set an interest rate where we're deliberately going to encourage thousands of our customers to cancel their cards forfeit their fees", "will lose revenue mileage won't be posted", "because people don't do it", "right exactly", "but they could", "if it were that important to get the rate", "all they have to do is ask right well one of our points is that we think it's relevant and important that an examination be permitted of how america western and bank of america in appropriated their contracts during the previous nine years", "now what the district court said was that it would not consider that issue", "and it said two reasons for that", "one of which was contradictory", "on page sixty five sixty six of er it says in its order we will not consider i will not consider how the parties implemented their previous contracts", "because in their previous contracts they used the term may be effective as against intents to offer", "and therefore i'm not gonna consider those contracts", "so he used a term from the contracts to support his decision that he wouldn't consider the contract", "okay", "you've got a little over five minutes left", "do you want to talk about the fees briefly yes thank you", "we have just a", "i have a question about that", "it's not a certified class correct that's correct", "how did the fact that the class is essentially still putative rather than certified strengthen or weaken your argument that attorney's fees should be awarded on a prorata basis across the entire class", "well we think it does neither", "because a class representative owes duties to the class as we've set out just as a certified representative owes duties to the class that it will have the same negative impact on and the same crippling impact on contract class actions being brought at all", "if a class representative can be held personally liable for eight thousand and should it go through trial eighty thousand times", "there's no question the fees were incurred", "absolutely but they were not incurred defending the individual's claim", "they were encouraged defending the perceived exposure to the putative class", "and while we agree that that's essentially an unfair result in terms of a defendant being able to recover its fees", "as we point out under arizona law the right to recover fees is not and has been expressly rejected by the arizona supreme court is not an ordinary how does this work if i suppose i'm out there and i hold one of these cards just like your client", "so i'm a member of the putative class yes", "now does the bank get to recover fees from me no and that law is well settled", "and we agree with defendant", "a prorated apportionment results in the same results of the defendant as a successful defendant as successful defendants recovery of costs", "so i don't have to pay them but you pay only as if i did pay that's correct", "and that's what those cases have said with respect to mandatory statutory costs after certification", "and the grounds for that reasoning was that to do otherwise would fatally cripple the class action device", "because no", "only lunatics and madmen will ever step forward to be a representative of a class if they think they can be personally exposed for thousands of times their individual claim", "in that circumstance the result is that the defendant simply does not recover those mandatory statutory costs", "but that's after the class is certified well or at the certification process", "but because the case can be lost at either stage", "i don't see what they argue", "i just don't understand the argument that that you can bring that a person can bring an utterly frivolous class action suit cause a defendant to incur thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars of fees in order to defend it and then not have any responsibility", "absolutely and we agree with you", "when a defendant brings an utterly frivolous case or even if there's a rule eleven finding or a 341oc filing of bad faith then that's absolutely right", "that individual should be charged", "but not if you just failed to state a claim", "that's exactly right", "because you can be dismissed for failure to state a claim", "and authority for that but if you don't stay to claim you're not liable for the fees incurred no", "but if there's a rule eleven finding you are is there any authority well no", "in that sense all of our questions are that's a first impression question", "and in that sense it's a first impression question", "but does the district court have a lot of discretion in this we think it has discretion to award reasonable attorney's fees in a manner which will not cripple the rule sixty eight class action litigation device", "there's risk inherent in all class action", "and presumably there are pooling arrangements that are made by class counsel with regard to figuring out how to share expert witness fees and other costs of discovery that may be lost if the litigation is unsuccessful", "yes", "why should it be any different with regard to attorney's fees where the claim is determined to be completely unamericanized well because cost can be shared and cost can be advanced", "defense counsel has informed why can't fees be because defense counsel informed us that should we try to pay these fees and assume these fees on behalf of mr cherry we would be in violation of two state bar rules eighteen e and eighteen j and that we would be subject to disbarment", "so they asked us to actually to confirm in writing that although we would obviously think that's the fair result and that can be a fair result in terms of costs as the rand case stated", "that she may be counseled pick up these costs", "counsel has informed us that in fact they want confirmation that we will not personally pick up these costs and that mr cherry will personally pay these costs", "okay you have about a minute left", "all right thank you very much", "i think we should hear from you", "you can stay here", "please stay up", "stay in front of the bar so that you can present your rebuttal", "and may it please the court counsel", "my name is jennifer hadley at dioguardi", "i'm from the phoenix office of snell and wilmer", "and i'm here on behalf of the defendant appellee bank of america", "the core of operative facts that i think everyone agrees on here is is we've got two issues with respect to this third party beneficiary claim", "one does this card i'm sorry not the card member agreement but what we've been calling the affinity agreement", "the agreement between the bank and the airline", "does that agreement indicate an express intent on the face of the agreement to create a third party beneficiary right in the plaintiff and other similar situated card members and then if you do find that that agreement does create a third party beneficiary right what is the impact of the plaintiff cardholders direct contract with the bank on that right plaintiff has a direct card holder agreement with the bank providing for a nine hundred and ninety nine interest rate", "that agreement also reserves discretion in the bank to set the terms for that card and to change those terms for that card", "that direct card holder agreement with the bank does not state that if the bank enters into an agreement with a third party we're then going to change your rate as well", "we've got a oneonone relationship with that card holder", "and that's really an accord with some of the principles behind the truth in lending act and whatnot", "you need to disclose to this person what you're going to charge to them and on what terms that rate is going to be changed", "on the second hand here we've got this card i'm sorry the affinity agreement i keep getting the names of these two agreements mixed up the agreement with the airline", "this agreement is forty something pages", "plaintiff keeps maintaining that the bank has no authority to extend credit to card holders but for this agreement", "and i disagree with that position", "how does the plaintiff says that how does the plaintiff reference say that he's referenced in the affinity agreement the affinity agreement refers to an intent to offer to flight fund participants", "so it's ff participants participants", "is what he's saying he put", "right", "that's got his name on it", "and if you look in the terms and conditions of that affinity agreement it defines ff participant as someone who is either i'm an america west customer or already enrolled in the flight fund program", "that definition does not necessarily include flight fund members who already hold a card", "and i think that comes into play", "when you look at section seven of the affinity agreement plaintiff has demanded that he's entitled to enforce an obligation upon the bank to communicate to him", "not only to give him the eight hundred and forty nine margin rate but to do so in a very specific fashion", "he's claiming that the bank is obligated to send directly to him not through a mailer provided to america west to send to flight fund participants but obligated to communicate directly to him through a change in terms notice this eight hundred and forty nine margin rate", "and if you examine the entirety of section seven of the affinity agreement which lays out in detail the banks obligations with respect to communicating with existing card holders for purposes of putting into play and expressly designed retention program directed at existing card holders", "as well as communicating with new card holders or potentially new card holders", "doesn't he say he's entitled to the adjustment without applying for a card in essence", "and this is something which actually brings up a good point which i would like to raise with you all to clarify", "it's a bit confusing because when you looked at the arguments that were addressed on the bank's motion to dismiss the plaintiff's position at that point was really that the bank was obligated to just charge me this", "apparently unilaterally immediately change his interest rate to eight hundred and forty nine", "i think after the oral arguments and reading judge tilburg's opinion with respect to looking at the limitations in his card member agreement for how the bank can change his rate", "and then also the language in the affinity agreement with respect to the term offer", "as opposed to immediately charged", "plaintiff then came back on the motion for reconsideration and said no", "what i really meant to say and give me a chance to amend my complaint to say is what the bank was obligated to do was to send me directly not through a mailer provided from america west but to send me directly this change in terms notice", "and so when you're looking at references in the plaintiffs appellate level briefs he sometimes make references to judge tilburg saying well you were really saying x when what you meant to say was y", "well at one point he was saying x not y on the motion to dismiss", "and then it was not until the motion for reconsideration that the argument shifted to this offer and the way in which the offer needed to be conveyed", "and i think that sometimes creates some confusing issues in reading the appellate briefs", "you need to look at which order the plaintiff is citing to and consider which type of obligation he was advancing at that point in time", "let me ask you a question", "the affinity agreement i take it establishes the terms that bank of america is willing to offer to america west frequent flyer card holders who apply through america west for the bank of america credit card", "is that right that's correct", "and presumably there is an interest rate that is quoted which is in essence what the bank is willing to offer that particular program for america west", "then i guess pays bank of america or gets paid by bank of america separately for participating in the program", "is that how it works it's actually and those are the portions and i can understand your confusion", "those are the portions of the affinity agreement that we had to redact for confidentiality", "yeah i figured this much", "it has to do with apparently this was a very competitive industry these banks and these airlines negotiating these agreements", "and basically what the bank does is they buy the miles from the airline at a specifically negotiated rate", "so the airline does not benefit from the specific interest rate in the sense that they get money directly in their pocket from it however", "not tied to the interest rate", "right", "although it is tied somewhat i suppose to the success", "exactly and that's why of the programming the interest rate issuing this many is of interest credit card that's all", "and of benefit to the airline", "that's helpful i figured that's why you kept it out but i really did need to have some understanding of how that works", "right and those provisions all that were redacted had to do with the compensation that flow directly from the bank to the airline and how that was reported", "you don't want southwest to know that no", "because if the bank tried to enter an agreement with them they'd hold those terms over our heads", "so let me get back to the argument again", "and i think another important point to make is as plaintiff has talked at length below in the appellate briefs and then here today about terms such as reasonably disputed inferences the contract is reasonably susceptible", "i'm encouraging judge tilburg and this court to look at the prior agreements between the bank and the airline", "what plaintiff is really asking this court to do is to put arizona back in the camp of the restatement with respect to how third party beneficiary rights are created", "the first and now currently the second restatement talk about examining the surrounding circumstances of the agreement and the subjective intent of the parties", "arizona specifically rejected that approach nearly fifty years ago in irwin and has consistently sided irwin with approval", "when they expressly rejected the approach of the restatement and said you know what with respect to this intent we don't like this gray area", "especially with respect of people that aren't parties to this agreement", "we want people who enter agreements with each other to be certain as to when they're going to owe something to somebody else", "and for that reason we're gonna require this contract on its face to express a clear and direct intent to convey a specific benefit to that third party", "now examples of when the arizona courts have interpreted contracts to find a third party beneficiary argument are i think it was us fidelity and guaranty versus farrago's plumbing", "it had to do with an owner of a construction project and a contractor entered into an agreement together with respect to the construction", "and in that agreement the owner specifically agreed to purchase insurance", "and the point of the owners purchasing the insurance was to protect the interests of the contractor third party subcontractors as well as subsub contractors", "that agreement also stated that if there was some sort of damage or a loss to the property as a result of the conduct of one of these subcontractors the owner's right to recover was going to be limited to that insurance", "and in that context the court looked at that and said well these parties clearly intended this owner to purchase this insurance to insulate this third party like this third party subcontractor from liability", "and they also specifically agreed not to go after that thirdparty subcontractor", "that's an example of when the courts have found an expressed intent in the agreement to convey something directly and intentionally to that person upon which they can recover", "an example similar to this one when the courts have not found a third party beneficiary right i would refer the court to the de certeau case in which a party who was injured on a mining construction type site tried to sue based on a contract between again a similar owner contractor situation in which one of the contractors on the job specifically agreed to take safety majors to protect the employees the public persons on the job site", "they agreed to implement those safety majors which frankly conveyed an absolute benefit to those people working on the job site", "but did that agreement specifically communicate an intent to create an actionable obligation on the part of people on the job site no", "the purpose of that agreement was to convey the obligations of the contractor and the project owner with respect to running the site", "that's similar to the situation we have here", "i submit to the court that judge tilbert correctly applied the irwin standard regardless of whether the plaintiff is advancing a theory of which he originally advanced on the motion to dismiss that the bank was obligated to unilaterally charge him a particular interest rate", "or whether it's the second theory that the bank was obligated to directly send him some sort of change in terms notice", "you cannot find anywhere in that credit card or the affinity agreement a direct and clear expression of intent to benefit the card holder", "as opposed to the bank and the airline trying to define their relationship with respect to each other", "and that is why judge tilbert disposed of the third party beneficiary claim", "now moving on to the claim for breach of the covenant of good faith and fair dealing", "plaintiff brought that basically based on two separate agreements", "he sued for the covenant of good faith and fair dealing in the affinity agreement in a third party beneficiary basis", "now if the court does not find that he's a third party beneficiary he obviously does not have a right to sue to enforce a covenant on a third party beneficiary basis", "he also sued based on the covenant contained in his card member agreement", "essentially stating that the bank breached some sort of duty of good faith in leaving the agreement exactly the way he agreed to pay the interest", "the bank supposedly breached some sort of duty of good faith by continuing to charge him the exact interest rate he agreed to pay", "there's no and plaintiff is trying to incorporate some sort of a term from this other this affinity agreement into his card member agreement as the source of the duty", "the bank concedes that there are cases in which this covenant can be formed or based upon something outside of your contract", "however there is no case that plaintiff can cite to and bank could find none in which the source of that duty was a lesser thirdparty beneficiary right", "and i think judge tilburg you kind of hit the nail on the head and in the impact that such a holding what have on the certainty when people in lending situations enter into an agreement with their customer if they enter into some sort of you know again global agreements say with those senior financer to you know extend you pointed out car loans in the future at a certain rate what happened to the certainty and the terms i've entered into with you and if you can import some sort of nebulous good faith standard into an agreement that requires you and someway to distinguish some of the cases plaintiff's cited is there was one or two the beatty case in particular where my client bank of america was prohibited from adding an alternative dispute resolution term to an agreement despite retaining express discretion to change the terms of the agreement", "now the court in that case was looking at when you retained discretion to change the terms it's reasonable for the parties to think you're just gonna change the existing terms", "you're not gonna add completely new ones that we never thought about when we entered this agreement to begin with", "and there was no provision for adr to begin with in the card member agreement", "and for that reason despite the express retained discretion in the bank to add terms the court said not that kind of term", "it's we need an express waiver of a right to a jury trial here", "that's not the kind of term the party was anticipating", "conversely if you apply that to this situation the plaintiff is saying that we cannot exercise that grant of discretion to change an interest rate which was a term that was already in the agreement and is saying not only can we not exercise we can't exercise that discretion to leave it the same", "which is different than beatty where the court was exercising the discretion to import a different term", "i'd like to turn my attention for the last few minutes here to the attorney fee issue", "the standard on that is an abuse of discretion standard", "plaintiff in essence is asking this court to create new law in arizona", "and as much as he is basically asking for a blanket exemption to the application of twelve dash thirty four thousand one hundred and one when you are a plaintiff who has brought an action on behalf of a class and you've got a relatively small individual claim", "there's not a case in arizona that says you cannot apply that statute to a particular group of plaintiffs", "it's to be applied evenly to plaintiffs and defendants", "and i don't believe that the apocalyptic result of no more contract class actions is going to result from this", "and i don't believe that for a couple of reasons", "one is plaintiff has pointed out in his briefs it is not necessarily a done deal", "that if you lose an action you're going to get hit with fees", "there is a sixth step inquiry that the court must undertake", "it's fact specific", "it's tailored towards the circumstances of the case", "it involves the party's conduct in the case", "it involves whether the case could have been resolved", "it involves the strength of the theories and the person that's best in the position to judge whether this is the type of case that's going to suffer from people bringing valid claims in the future", "it's that sixth factor there is the trial judge", "yeah", "and i assume that your client would argue that we don't want to encourage people to file meritless class actions", "i agree with that", "that's exactly what my client would argue", "and here i think something that the judge although he didn't say so in his order i think it's something that influenced the opinion is this was a situation where the plaintiff amended the complaint not once but twice", "didn't survive a motion to dismiss and then chose to bring a motion for reconsideration", "you know it's the conduct that goes on in the case the opportunities to present the theories the strength of the theories", "it does not have to be a frivolous case", "we've got rule eleven for that", "and in arizona we've also got a twelve dash three hundred and forty nine as well as subc of the statute that's an issue here", "that's for frivolous cases", "suba is for something less than a frivolous case but one that you still want to encourage a party to think twice about bringing", "and i submit to the court that this is just such a case", "now with respect to the prorata share argument", "plaintiff has cited cases that have to do with whether or not you can examine the financial background of a plaintiff", "and that a plaintiff has to say at deposition that he will agree to pay a hundred percent of the costs as a precondition to finding that person an adequate class representative", "i think that's a different inquiry than where we are on the backend", "where not only are we not even addressing whether this person is an adequate class representative", "we found that the claims cannot go forward", "i think the right v shaw cases is directly on point on this issue", "and i believe it was either the ninth circuit or the district of arizona", "i forget which", "i think it was the ninth circuit in which they awarded sixty thousand in costs against the named plaintiff of a putative class action when his claims were dismissed prior to class certification", "that person because there was no class to be certified to share those costs that person had to pay all sixty thousand of those costs", "i think putting this prorata share argument also into practice it really baffles me as to how that would be done in a way that that would be fair to a party who successfully defended the claim on the merits", "is the bank then to go through and disclose all of the existing card holders who had a card at a different interest rate as of january two thousand and one add that up and then figure out what fractional share plaintiff should be", "it seems to me that that's a rather large burden", "i think you have this all briefed", "all right", "thank you", "thank you", "thank you", "as fast as i can speak here", "you have about a minute left", "judge callahan yes plaintiff is in the category of ff participants", "defendant did not dispute that below", "and judge tilburg specifically found that", "second to defend to not discuss it all the beaudry case on plaintiff's claims of breach of covenant of good faith and fair dealing in the cardholder agreement", "the facts there are virtually analogous to these facts in terms of what they're suggesting about retained rights sole discretion and course of conduct", "in that regard we continue to maintain that because mr cherry over a ten year period was charged the rates specified in that agreement that that course of conduct under beaudry supports that we've stated a claim", "stating a claim doesn't mean we're gonna win the claim", "it means we've stated a claim", "third the right versus shaw case", "it was one hundred and thirteen thousand claim was a sixty thousand cost award", "there was no argument made before this court and it was a ninth circuit case that that would negatively impact the class action device fatally crippling", "fourth defendant has agreed that with respect to costs that costs that are grossly disproportionate will result in that sort of crippling that only lunatics and madman would ever file a case like that in the first instance", "the only disagreement in that regard is the timing", "and because every class action must be filed initially by an individual plaintiff", "and every class action can be lost at any stage of the proceedings", "hindsight is not as the supreme court said in christianburg there shouldn't be any risk involved in filing one that has no merit", "well yes ma'am but to argument", "we understand your honor", "yeah okay", "but just as in christianburg where the supreme court held with respect to title seven that are prevailing only prevailing plaintiffs only prevailing plaintiffs should recover attorney's fees with a neutrally facial statute we're not advocating that stringent a standard here", "because otherwise the policies underlying class actions will be crippled thank you very much", "thank you", "the case just argued is submitted for decision", "now that concludes the courts calendar for this morning", "this the last case has been settled", "and the court stands adjourned", "all rise", "and the courts of this session stand adjourned"], "name": ["gov.uscourts.ca9.02-17057/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca9_DOT_02-17057/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca9_DOT_02-17057_DOT_2004-02-10_DOT_flac_00000.flac", 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1299, 6264, 8881, 2468, 833, 2680, 2331, 1586, 1220, 1779, 4571, 1868, 833, 1149, 1750, 4510, 9730, 4400, 1890, 13350, 15476, 6324, 1330, 1007, 3333], "label": ["good morning your honor your honor", "may it please the panel my name is william gantz and i'm here today on behalf of rapid displays", "we're here today because although the trial court got some of the things right particularly the decision as to breach fiduciary duty the result in the end was unjust and inequitable", "rapid did everything right", "they had a claim they brought a suit and they were confronted with what can only be deemed is the classic shell game which the courts have seen in many many instances in which many cases and incited to the court", "mr gorder was a fiduciary", "he breached his duty", "he admitted that he breached his duty and he has not appealed that finding", "he also admitted in the trial court", "what fiduciary duty does he admit he breached well the trial court's finding your honor was that mr gorder breached his fiduciary duty for failing to properly liquidate his corporation which was insolvent", "and what was improper about his liquidation well as we pointed out in the trial court and thoroughly in our briefs we identify hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of assets belonging to his first company which we've called old core that were either transferred to himself or transferred to his new company", "when we sued him he started up a new company and shut down the old one new corp", "essentially our suit was to set aside these transfers and to get back the money that old corp should have had in its coffers to pay us", "in addition your honor as as we've cited i may have not phrased my question very well", "yes sir", "i'm not concerned with the ways in which he breached his duty", "i'd like you to state what the duty was", "was it a fiduciary duty owed by him to the creditors to marshal the assets upon his recognition that the company was insolvent is that the same duty as the directors owed under oregon state law that's what i'm getting at", "yes i do actually believe it is the same duty because as the court will see and in the gantenbein case it's cited to the precursor of a sixty thousand six hundred and thirty seven which is the improper distributions to shareholders case", "so whether you term it the breach of fiduciary duty or you call it an improper dissolution of the assets when you're dissolving a corporation those duties are the same", "and i think that's a good point", "the gantenbein case also specifies that when you were operating the company in an insolvent state although it's a going concern the sole director shareholder or officer is still going to be required to properly account for and establish the good faith of his dealings with the company", "that part of gantenbein correlates to the rules that are set forth in the uniform fraudulent transfer act which oregon's adopted", "as set forth in ninety five thousand two hundred and thirty and ninety five thousand two hundred and forty", "the fundamental error that the trial court made was limiting rapid to what it deemed to be transfers taking place after july of two thousand and one", "in a sense we know that the district court attempted to do some sort of bankruptcy analysis as of july two thousand and one because that's what the district court has said", "as we pointed out in our brief the four or five things that the court agreed with us on on transfers were all transfers taking place after mr gorder got our suits started up new corp and transferred assets", "what was ignored in the trial court was the way in which the company was run while it was insolvent", "and that dates back all the way to one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven", "and certainly by the admission of mr gorder in this case on may 4th two thousand the day that we contracted with mr gordon's company they were also insolvent", "they had lost money hundreds of thousands of dollars in every year prior to that", "if on may 4th two thousand and one at the time you contracted with as you call it old corp and gorder you have the financial statements of old corp which showed losses and operating as a loss", "and you had gorder's personal financial statements", "why didn't you realize the company was insolvent well your honor as the court in gantenbein and numerous other in fact the fraudulent transfer statute contemplates there are many corporations which have a balance sheet insolvency but are going concerns", "here mr gorder gave us an indication of his net worth", "he had a vested interest in keeping this company going and there are many companies that people do business with who are in precisely that state", "so he gave us also we also required that we got a third down before we started the job", "so we did take certain precautions but essentially mr gorder displayed that he had a net worth of thirty six or thirty nine million", "the company had significant assets", "there was not an overwhelming amount of secure debt", "in essence we knew what the condition were of course because he gave us the information", "and that's why we asked for certain precautions but that doesn't go back to excuse him for the manner in which he actually ran his corporation", "if i understand you correctly at that point he should have if he realized he was insolvent he should have stopped operations marshalled the assets and distributed them on an adequate program to share", "so therefore your contract would never have become a contract", "well i guess looking retrospectively that's possible but he did enter into the contract with us and he did give us the down payment", "and your honor i think that there's a distinction to be made here between operating a company and the time when it becomes so bad that you must shut down the company", "and i think that's a distinction that the district court confused", "mr gorder because his company was insolvent when he contracted with us he had the particular responsibility to deal with this company in good faith", "and one of the recent decisions that the panels asked us for a supplemental brief on the houston's case i don't have a copy of i don't know i don't know if my colleagues do", "did you file one we did file a supplemental brief with the court your honor", "i'll be happy to provide i have a twenty eight j letter where you raised hamilton that was yes that was today your honor we discovered judge gould's opinion in this regard", "i neglected to mention i would like to reserve i would like to reserve three minutes", "just tell me whether you think the houston case cause i don't have your brief", "yes sir", "the opponent says it doesn't apply because they were not undercapitalized from inception", "the second prong about a disinterested lender", "if you think is your position that that case does or doesn't apply i think it certainly applies because the plaintiff in that case brought some of the same claims that we dealt with", "and the analysis here is the the defendants in that case are the parent company and the officers had given advances in the form of inventory and goods", "here mr gorder gave certain advances to keep the company afloat and keep it a going concern", "that's precisely what the district court in this case actually made one correct finding a fact that i agree with when he found that mr gorder's money kept the company afloat", "the decision in houston's is actually right on point here because where you are putting in money to keep it afloat you are actually gambling on the outcome", "and if the company does well you'll take a reward in its operations", "so you don't read the statement from that case that gorder relies upon that it only applies in the case of an undercapitalized company that's undercapitalized from the get go no and that's the point of the gantenbein case", "it's the point of the fraudulent transfer act at any point that you're running a company that's insolvent you have these duties to act properly", "and in fact the houston's case was interesting because it didn't specify that the shareholder had to feel in good faith and establish that based upon a breach of fiduciary duty", "that wasn't even raised by the plaintiff in that case", "the houston's case has a twopronged test", "one can be quote a shareholder loan as a capital contribution if it is made to an initially capitalized corporation", "or when no descend arrested lender would have extended credit correct that's correct", "so you say that the second prong applies here yes sir", "now is there any evidence in this record and if so please point out to me that the corporation ie what you call old corporation was undercapitalized and if so when okay again your honor based upon the admissions and the balance sheets and the financial statements and a long history that's not what i meant that's circumstantial evidence", "i suppose what i should've said more precisely was did you have an expert witness an economist or an accountant testify that on a date certain based on the financial statements a business of this volume was undercapitalized for the purposes under which it was incorporated no your honor mr gorder admitted as of may 4th that his company was insolvent", "that's not the same as being an undercapitalized", "you can be undercapitalized from the getgos", "as judge fisher says that's one issue but you can still be solid", "okay i think if you read the houston's case with the gantenbein case and the fraudulent transfer statutes whether the company's insolvent or undercapitalized at a particular moment means that it's unable to pay its debts", "it has a balance sheet insolvency", "and i think that's i think that's you equate the undercapitalized and insolvent well in terms of under the term undercapitalization implies that from the beginning of time when the company is formed it was under capitalized", "we don't have that information for mr gorder's company because it had been in existence for twenty plus years", "what we do know is that it was insolvent at all times that he was dealing with us", "was this oregon case law provided to the district coordinator the houston case regrettably was not your honor", "we certainly did argue that the loans were not properly documented that they could not be called loans that he was simply advancing money to keep the company alive", "we made all of the arguments but we did not cite that specific case", "how about the gantenbein case gantenbein was front and center in the district court", "how about hardman was that also hardman i do not believe was presented to the district court", "now", "but gantenbein and the fraudulent transfer acts and everything else tells us is that when we proved our case mr gorder had a burden to come in and establish the good faith of his transactions because he was a sole shareholder director and officer of the company both during times it was being dissolved and while it was being operated as an insolvent company nonetheless", "now we i want to just we have lots of exhibits and i know we've probably overloaded this matter with facts and documents but there's some important ones", "what did we do we got a bunch of documents and we went through all the documents and ledgers and we tried to guess and come about transactions and transfers", "we were the bloodhounds in this", "mr gorder dumped his documents on us and discovery", "we went through them and we provided affidavits", "and the result of it your honor was tabs one hundred and five and that was the basic list of all the things that we found that were transferred in properly", "now the amounts of these transfers and these are things that were really never accounted for the accounting this to the entire accounting that we got in the district court is a document which was produced at trial not in discovery by mr toby who is the controller of both old corp and new corp and that's a tab one hundred and sixteen", "there was never any explanation or accounting for any of the plain loans", "we never got information about when where how who for what reason any of that basic information", "there was a rey loan file that penny kelly said she maintained but she never produced", "one amazing example is that there was never any accounting for over five hundred thousand of personal expenses where we found things just in the threeyear period of time that we had records that that had been milked out of old corp because mr gorder was paying his personal bills or non old corp business bills through the company", "those amounts exceeded those amounts exceeded the amount that the district court ultimately even found as loans", "and that was mr gorder's justification for taking the money and doing all these things that he did and comingling", "what would you have us do your honor we would have you on multiple theories because we produced hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars of transfers in excess of what we were owed in excess of what the other creditors were owed and in fact in excess of what mr gorder the district court found he was owed", "all of that adds up to about eight hundred and ninety thousand", "we had transferred well above that that mr gorder didn't account for", "that means this court as a matter of law because there was no accounting for these transfers can enter the judgment in full for us", "this is what happened in the multiple cases such as houstons", "the defrauded and the disappointed judgment creditor proves that there are assets that were transferred vastly in excess of what they were owed", "and they recovered in full", "and one of the interesting things that i hope that the panel found it interesting but on page thirty two of our brief we took the trouble to actually do a prorata distribution that had the court", "i just wanted to see if we used the district court's actual factual findings we used mr gorder's actual findings for what he paid his creditors over time", "you may remember and i'll give you the tab number but mr toby set out to determine that and prove on behalf of mr gorder that from may 1st two thousand just three days before we contracted they actually paid all of their other creditors ninety five plus on the dollar", "that's tab one hundred and twelve", "we did we added our receivable backend we used the actual findings of fact for the three hundred approximately three hundred thousand that the district court did find was improperly transferred", "and we actually used mr gorder's numbers for all of his receivables and what he paid and when we added all together we would have been paid nine hundred and seventy one", "so if the court here is looking for an alternative it should find that the district court if it wanted to do a prorata distribution should have done it as a may 4th two thousand", "and the evidence provided by mr gorder and using the trial court's findings of fact would have put us in a situation where just under the breach of fiduciary duty claim we would have gotten nine hundred and seventy one", "and we probably wouldn't have been here except for the issues that we have raised on our attorney's fees", "you want us to do a pro rata distribution a year before your contract was entered into no our contract was entered on may 4th two thousand", "oh i thought it was two thousand and one", "no i'm sorry your honor if i misspoke", "may 4th two thousand was our date of contract", "they provided the evidence that showed that they paid ninety five on the dollar from may 1st two thousand til the end of time", "and we don't ever really know what time the end of time is because there was no real liquidation and the district court actually didn't find when he specifically turned it down", "you know i don't know what the views of the panel being and i haven't decided the principles yet myself but normally even if we agreed with you on the law we would not get into kind of a fact intensive calculation as an appellate court", "all we would do is to declare the law and remand it to the district court for further proceedings consistent with our opinions", "i'm running short on time but i'd like to respond", "i agree that the findings of fact are subject to the clear air standard and there must be a fundamental mistake", "but here we have a trial court who misinterpreted the law on how to do the prorata distribution misinterpreted the law on what the fiduciary duty meant and misinterpreted the law on how mr gorder was required to account if we said what the law was is there any reason to think that district court couldn't follow the law as we stated it well that's why we've also maintained that there are clear errors of fact and there are a lot of non findings but the fundamental error here is calling it a day on july 31st two thousand and one and not well into the future", "that's what the court fundamentally got wrong", "so that was clear error", "and it was also a misunderstanding of the law to try to do a faux bankruptcy", "that was the that's a misunderstanding of the law", "and it's a mistake of law and this court can reverse that de novo", "i've suggested ways that this court can why don't you save your time yes sir thank you", "may it please the court", "dave sweeney for responding cross opponent ray gorder", "this was a fact intensive case trade by us magistrate", "i note that my colleague states that the fundamental error was that the trial court held that the timing in this matter was july 31st two thousand and one", "in fact the trial court held that mr gorder knew that the company was insolvent on may 10th two thousand and one not late july", "there were two pivotal factual findings that occurred in this case", "this case involved interesting exhibits of mr gorder who was the president shareholder of interesting exhibits a company that lasted over twenty years had excellent clients", "and when they entered into the contract with rapid display gave them a balance sheet which displayed accurately what their financial situation was including a reference to a note payable shareholder of over four hundred and ninety five thousand", "now the trial court here made two pivotal factual findings one were these infusions of and by mr gorder were they loans or were they capital contributions that's a fact issue", "and the trial court heard testimony from mr gorder they heard testimony from the chief financial officer of the company they heard testimony from the outside accountant of the company they heard testimony from the chief corporate counsel for the company they had documentary evidence showing that the loans were in fact evidence on the books of the corporation did anybody argue to the judge that these were capital contributions oh absolutely", "okay and but we've heard that at least one of the relevant oregon cases and the federal cases neither of were cited", "it's all under gantenbein is that it the gantenbein doesn't deal with the issue of loans versus capital contributions", "gantenbein deals with the issue of whether at what point does your obligation as a fiduciary kick in when does that occur and the issue of loans versus capital contribution which was front and center in front of the trial judge that was an issue that he had to determine that was critical because if in fact these were not loans then mr gorder would not be repaid any of the amounts", "that those would not have been appropriate", "mr gorder loaned this company over thirteen million over the course of its activities", "and as i was trying the case and is reflected in the record the trial judge looked out and he smiled", "and in the record it says you may wonder why i'm smiling because this is an unusual case", "most of the time i'm dealing with cases where people are trying to save their own skin but here mr gorder was continuing to place money into the corporation", "in fact he placed over two hundred thousand into the corporation in the year two thousand and one alone", "judge jelderks the trial judge held that on early may may 10th two thousand and one mr gorder knew that the company was insolvent", "so that's when the trust fund theory kicks in at that point", "that's the purpose of gantenbein", "gantenbein says the test is the fact test is that the company must discontinue business by reason of its insolvency", "and what happened in may two thousand and one that the trial judge was looking at to make this determination what happened was that there was in fact outside financing of this company unlike the houston case and it was from key bank", "there was approximately fifty thousand worth of equity on that line of credit", "but in may two thousand and one key bank decided that they gave the note over to special assets", "that meant collect the note", "it was a demand note", "and at that point a meeting was held with the outside accountant mr mack who testified with the corporate counsel mr desylvia", "and at that point mr gorder was told in essence this company can no longer survive", "it was that may period of time that judge jelderks determined that mr gorder then knew that the company was insolvent", "judge jelderks saw mr gordon", "he acknowledged in his findings of fact that mr gorder was unschooled in accounting and law but he relied on his professionals and that without his loans this company would not have survived", "so and in fact when mr desylvia and the outside counsel was testifying the trial judge says now this time period may be important to me", "i want to make sure i understand the sequence in may", "and then in his decision it was that sequence in may that triggered that finding that mr gorder knew insolvency of his company occurred in may 10th", "that's the findings of fact", "and from that point forward then his fiduciary duty occurred", "now it's it's also the trial judge puts assets back into the pot so that the before you go to that sure", "as of the time when gorder knew that his company was insolvent any loans that he made after that time should be treated as capital importations correct well there's certainly what you don't agree with that i think as a strict construct of law perhaps that's that's correct", "you want us to apply a loose construct no i guess my counsel's arguing equity and here's a here's a fellow", "if you if you could imagine that that his company of twenty years is now going down the drain and he's still trying to put money into it to save it and judge jelderks found the trial court found that but under the instance of rule the second rule if he has reason to believe that the company is insolvent at that point you don't consider i mean he's got a duty to marshal up the assets as of that point", "and any further money he's giving is to an insolvent corporation", "so he may be trying to save his name but he shouldn't be expecting to see to that", "i think in this situation i believe judge jelderks would have applied that rubric", "and i believe that that's from i didn't mean to stop you on the other one", "you don't have any problem with the disgorgement of one hundred and eighty eight thousand for the boat and a beach house do you no and what happened there was that it was improperly on the balance sheet in the first place", "it was taken off after that balance sheet had been given to rapid display", "the trial court said hey rapid display saw this on there", "so you're a stock from saying it wasn't there", "not that it was a fraudulent misrepresentation", "in fact the trial court said it was it was clearly not", "and our only point in cross appeal is that if you're going to put that back in you need to correspondingly put the debt back into gorder as well", "that's the only issued after may 1st two thousand and one pardon me you mean the debt issued after two thousand and one that if the trial judge in our point on cross appeal is if you stick that beach house and the boat back in the pot for creditors then those that has a corresponding debt at the same time to mr gorder that should go on his side of the debt column", "unless the debt given by mr gorder was when he knew the company was insolvent", "right", "and we don't believe that occurred", "we believe that the that those the beach house and the the boat were taken off prior to may 1st two thousand and one in the books", "well he he made two loans after oh pardon me now", "didn't he make a loan of two hundred and twenty nine thousand between twelve million three hundred and twelve thousand to fifty one thousand and one i'm going to have to rely on the record your honor i don't have it in front of me", "i'm going to avoid at the suggestion of judge gould getting into details like leave that to the trial judge", "but it's our principal position on this appeal that it was a fact bound case that had two critical factual underpinnings to it", "one that these were loans rather than the capital contributions", "two that in fact the under gantenbein and under common law principles the trial judge made a very clear analysis of when that fiduciary responsibility occurred", "and it was early may two thousand and one", "the trial judge had an analysis by the chief financial officer that he used trial judge i'm still trying then to understand how you want us to end run houston and that principle and say that anything any capital contribution made after he was aware should not be treated as excuse me any advancement as much loan whatever should be treated as other than as a capital contribution", "what's your theory again why given your acknowledgement that as of may 10th two thousand no no may 10th two thousand and one your honor", "but the trial judge yes may 10th two thousand and one", "but any monies after that date that mr gorder loaned to the corporation which i understood to be about a hundred some odd thousand would be treated as a capital contribution contrary to what judge jelderks found", "i don't recall how judge jelderks treated those monies post may two thousand and one", "but in light of in light of the law that would seem to be pretty much have to be given what you acknowledged that the trust fund the duty applied at that point", "absolutely your honor", "all right i think we have your point", "the trial judge had counted by the chief financial officer and the trial judge spent a significant period of time it's cited in our supplemental record examining directly as is his power to do so", "the chief financial officer asked to how the accounting records work how did the the loans were booked to mr gorder and the trial judge was entitled to rely on that testimony", "the countervailing evidence was prepared by a paralegal that was admitted simply that was judged as the trial judge says to try to make the record make sense but not for as i understand it the proof of the underlying calculations or the information", "this is not a fraudulent transfer under oregon state statutes because there was contemporaneous value given the loans that occurred", "this was not an asset because the the materials and assets of the company were encumbered by the key bank's loans", "so it turns to the statute it doesn't apply", "this was not an improper shareholder distribution because it wasn't a distribution", "it wasn't in wasn't in regards to a shareholder", "these in fact were loans", "the equitable subordination argument i've only seen advanced ever in an admiralty case", "and that's the only time we've ever seen it occur", "it requires an equitable conduct and that inequitable conduct did not occur", "judge jelderks i think went out of his way to indicate that this conduct was not inequitable", "and in fact the the fiduciary duty judge jelderks found that mr gorder was not told of his obligations under to martial assets and to do an orderly liquidation", "now this doesn't excuse a shareholder from doing that once that point in time is achieved but nonetheless in terms of in terms of culpability in terms of that analysis does that go to the issue of punitive damages and attorney's fees the issue of punitive damage and attorney's fees there was flat note no substantive basis for attorney fees in this case it doesn't exist", "it's not an oregon common law nor in the statutes", "in terms of punitive damages punitive damages were never pled in this case", "in fact when the trial counsel said let's bifurcate this i told her i said to the trial judge punitive damages aren't at play in this case", "so they're simply not there", "so the record in terms of mr gorder's culpability is closed punitive damages were never played there's no substitute basis for an award of attorney fees here", "there's no vindication of a constitutional right the creation of a pool of assets for others to share in the right to attorney fees or may in some instances if you're shaking the attorney fees you spent in the prior litigation but the prior litigation was against the corporation not against mr gorder", "i have a question on one of your earlier points", "were there improper shareholder distributions if loans will be paid after that were made after the date when mr gorder knew of insolvency because i believe in that instance the distributions have to be because of mr gorder's shareholder status", "you're a shareholder therefore i'm going to distribute x dollars to you given your status", "the that simply did not occur", "these were these were loans that were paid", "and in fact the loans the loans are the monies that went in late two thousand and one", "certainly if you're talking about a first in first out analysis we're never repaying because a judge the trial judge found that that mr gorder was still owed over three hundred and ninety five thousand at the end of the day", "and then so judge gould's question you mean unless the repayment where stamp dividend then it's not an improper distribution to shareholders if he's the sole shareholder i don't think that this were these were shareholder distributions in the in the sense of in the sense of the definition", "no i don't", "it was a distribution to the only shareholder", "that's correct", "you said that the punitive damages wasn't flooding yet", "i'm looking at the transcript of the free trial fashion for bifurcated the trial and mr gas is saying we pleaded the right to recover attorney's fees as well as punitive damages", "and the court says okay without prejudice either attorney fees or punitive damages i'll allow you to reserve putting on any testimony or making any argument on those two issues until the underlying little liability issues have been resolved", "let's take a look at the first amended complaint", "it's not there", "okay the pretrial conference seemed to think it was", "i was if that was the conference immediately before trial i believe i stated and i was inserted in this case late", "i think i told the judge that i said your honor there were no punitive damages that i'm aware of that have been pled in the case", "okay you did raise that", "i don't recall specifically when you said there was no organic basis for an attorney fees claim", "okay well we'll see what the there was a bifurcation order issued right the order that you that's what i recall the court doing what the transcript said", "there's no formal pretrial order apart from that trans that i wondered is is there a formal pretrial and it's a good question", "if there is law i think or at least there used to be when i did litigation a number of years back that a pretrial order supersedes the pleading", "sure", "so that if a pretrial order said punitive damages once that happened even if they weren't in the complaint pardon me i don't believe there was a pretrial order here", "i got involved just before the trial", "i should know the answer but i don't i don't think that there was", "so for those reasons your honor we believe that with the exception of our issuing cross appeal judgment of the trial court should be sustained", "and what relief you wish on your cross appeal cross appeal the judgment against mr gorder personally should be reduced by slightly over four thousand", "i just have a couple of minutes so i'm going to go as quickly as i can", "the definition of distribution under the transfer to distribution act is sixty thousand and seventeen", "it means a direct or indirect transfer of money or other property", "that's a broad definition and covers any type of distribution", "the idea that my clients have waived the protections of the fraudulent transfer act or the breach of fiduciary duties because we knew that the company had a negative balance sheet isn't square with the law", "otherwise no one would do any business with a going concern that it's operating as an insolvent", "the trial court made numerous errors of fact and clear errors", "one is on page if you look at page twelve of the conclusions of law and findings of fact that the court finds that there were overpayments on leases that old corp didn't receive revenues and it paid for repairs for properties that gorder owned", "we identified four hundred and eighty eight thousand worth of that and added up to four hundred and eighty eight thousand", "my reference for that is tab one thousand and sixty nine and duncan's testimony", "mr toby came back and said the entire amount of rent's due they try to offset that claim with rent", "by his testimony it was ninety six thousand", "there was no finding in our favor as to the differential", "that's three hundred thousand plus that would have been available to us", "the issue here is not what came in and out", "it's globally what happened and we were entitled to have a prorata distribution", "there was five hundred and sixty eight thousand in accounts receivable not accounted for", "there was a receivable for forty three thousand that his mr gorder judy walsh acknowledged was received but it vanished into thin air", "the trial court's problem is that it didn't make proper findings of fact and it missed it missed the boat", "it didn't even roll up", "all right we've got that point", "now in terms of punitive damages and attorney fees was there because it's not in the punitives are not in the first amend of complaint not specifically anyway", "and but you do ask for attorney fees", "so what's the status of the record on first punitive damage there was no pretrial order", "we filed an amended complaint", "we felt at the pretrial that our claims and the evidence that we are going to see would sustain our action or our claim for punitive damages", "and in fact reaching that's all you've got it's just what you said that you thought you had a punitive damage claim", "and when challenged you said you'd have to go back and take a look", "that's the state of the record", "that's correct your honor", "and there was never any and as far as attorney fees what's your basis for attorney fees the attorney's fees your honor in a couple cases i'd like to cite to", "are these also new cases that haven't been cited previously these are cases that we cited in our we never got an opportunity to brief the issue in the trial court", "so what you decided that these are in our brief your honor", "give me the name", "osborn versus hay that's fine", "which adopted the restatement of toward five ninety one", "you don't have to just cite", "okay osborn versus hay", "okay got that", "and for these single cases i want to save my quotes and time by having to track them down", "oskenholt versus lederle", "thank you", "one last question", "i'm sorry there were a couple more", "dizick versus umpqua and medford irrigation", "and also i'd like to point out that ors 95261c allows for any other relief the circumstances require", "we've got no equity here unless we get our expenses from this case", "one last question counsel", "as to the punitive damages at the end of the evidence did you make a motion to amend your complaint to include a punitive damage based on the proof no i did not your honor it was never it was never challenged after we started the trial", "and oregon law well it was challenged at pretrial conference but does oregon law require specific fleeting of punitive damages in other words you have to specifically request that you can't it doesn't come under the such other relief as maybe just the proper", "you know i don't know the answer to that question and i'd be happy to look into it and provide the court with a short brief on that", "if necessary we'll ask", "all right", "the case just argue will be submitted"], "name": ["gov.uscourts.ca9.04-35246/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca9_DOT_04-35246/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca9_DOT_04-35246_DOT_2005-09-12_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "gov.uscourts.ca9.04-35246/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca9_DOT_04-35246/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_ca9_DOT_04-35246_DOT_2005-09-12_DOT_flac_00001.flac", 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7930, 2250, 10440, 7383, 17310, 3190, 11100, 5120, 13960, 1293, 3790, 4250, 3270, 4430, 2830, 9060, 1850, 6360, 7290, 1750, 1890, 833, 8397, 1077, 1440, 3080, 10030, 4780, 8600, 1780, 3810, 3684, 6606, 9800, 5180, 15238, 2222, 3030, 1890, 4730, 1300], "label": ["good morning your honor this is brian boshi on behalf of the appellant as i've watched lawyer after lawyer go over their time", "i guess i better reserve three minutes for rebuttal", "okay", "thank you", "preliminarily i would like to point out that in addition to all the other things we're going to talk about this morning and all of the claims and the elements of the claims", "my client mark hunt is the only party of this action who did not commit wrongdoing in this matter", "brock lesnar cheated and got caught and was sort of rustling blocks out sound the other way because it didn't want to know that brock lesnar was cheating and was not going to be able to headline their ufc two hundred card", "and was going to cost them tens of millions of dollars", "my client complied with contract he signed expended tens of thousands of dollars of personal expense training traveling doing everything he was required to do to fight in the manner that ufc guaranteed him", "and yet somehow after the lower court's decision he is left without recourse and candidly among all the other reasons i'm going to site to in this argument that can not be the right answer", "this matter should be remanded because he does have and those claims were properly alleged and he was wrong", "preliminarily what was wrong", "sorry go ahead", "what was error about the determination that all of the damages he saw were consequential damages that were barred by the contract because all of the damages that were alleged were not consequential damages i was going to deal with that in the contract section but i'm happy to deal with it now judge rawlinson", "at the end of the day the damages that mark hunt suffered in addition to consequential damages that that ufc has pointed out are barred", "mr hunt expended tens of thousands of dollars training traveling for one event where he was ice skating uphill for lack of a better term", "i mean he was beaten before he walked into the ring against brock lesnar and another event that he was pulled out of primarily for the allegations of the complaint", "because he had shed a light on what ufc had done in the lesnar fight", "and though he relied upon the representations in both his contracts and specifically and i don't want to quote it because it's filed under seal", "but if you look at this up o6 through o8 and the guarantees that are in the contract that my client is going to get a clean fight in all of his contractual fights", "he didn't get that", "and he relied upon that to his detriment and the breach of contract caused him actual damages", "he lost appearance fees that were booked before the fight based upon reliance that he was going to have a fair fight with mr lesnar and he didn't", "i mean and then the record is i mean i don't think there's we're at the putting stage so when i say the record is clear mr lesnar got caught", "he tested positive twice and was suspended", "and paid a nominal monetary fine for it", "but at the end of the day it was my client who suffered", "so these are not and i know that judge dorsey was very hard on that in her decision and candidly i disagree with it that these are all consequential damages", "i don't know and i don't think anybody knows", "it is a pure speculation as to whether my client would have defeated brock lesnar had he not cheated", "that is absolute speculation", "but the damages incurred because he had to fight brock lesnar", "he had to fight a fighter who had been cheating are absolutely not consequential and they are absolutely not speculative", "he should've never been in the ring with brock lesnar", "brock lesnar should've never been in that fight", "and had that not happened can i ask you can i ask a question if you're still answering judge rawlinson's question i apologize you can continue", "i didn't want to it seemed to me he's answered my question already", "oh thank you okay", "it just seemed to me that the breach of contract claim is a tough one is an uphill battle", "you know your client got i believe seven hundred thousand", "he fought he says you know had i known there that there was doping and i wouldn't have you know that the contract was therefore breached", "i suppose it would require that your client remit the seven hundred thousand he received and seek some consequential damages but you know it just struck me that it's almost more of a toward theory and it's either fraud in the inducement or just you know a garden variety fraud claim which you've already plead", "and it seems to me that once you get into well he would have won or he would have done better and he might have not lost endorsements cause he might've done better", "that just strikes me as being pretty speculative", "what seems fairly clean to me however is the argument you know that if i knew that this other person was doping i simply wouldn't have gone forward because it would have been bad for my reputation", "doping is very effective in terms of giving unfair advantage to folks if that's the evidence", "and i simply wouldn't have gone forward with this fight", "and one can then at least there's a fairly clean road in terms of damages in what that might've meant as opposed to sort of betting on the outcome of a fight with this you know these uncertainties", "so i just like your reaction to my sort of pared down version of what i think maybe is left in this case", "and judge pregerson i agree with most of i actually agree with most of what you said", "i would direct your honor to and it's again it's under seal", "it supplement o6 o7 and o8 as the contract", "and here's why it is significant that he fought brock lesnar who was a doping fighter", "the contract provides that my client was going to get paid seven hundred thousand for the first fight regardless of who he fought", "he was going to get that money whether he fought brock lesnar whether he fought another fighter whether he bought someone else", "later in the contract in paragraph in sub two sub three and then eventually in sixty two there are incentive clauses where my client had he had the opportunity to fight for a title had he gone in with a legitimate fighter in his first fight", "there are performance bonuses", "he is entitled to more money under their contract if he fights for a title", "and then if he becomes a champion he's entitled to more money after that", "and then he's entitled potentially to a piece of the payperview", "so when i say that he should not have fought brock lesnar at all certainly he would not have been entitled to the seven hundred thousand and then another seven hundred thousand for another fight", "what i'm saying is he would have gotten the seven hundred thousand regardless of who he fought he could have fought me", "that would have been even more inequitable than fighting brock lesnar but had he fought someone else he would have gotten the same seven hundred thousand and the contract provides that there would have been other opportunities", "that's point one", "point two would be the guaranteed fight money is one component of the contractual damages but he was going to get that regardless of who he fought", "the guts of what i think was alleged and i think what stems from ufc's contract", "and again i would point out that this is ufc's contract", "i happen to know mr williams drafted it", "he did a very fine job drafting it for his client", "it is a very good contract for ufc but it is their contract", "and when we're talking about categories of damages that can or cannot be recovered under this contract it doesn't say reliance damages in there", "and it doesn't say that for a reason", "and again i would argue that to the extent that there's any ambiguity at all it'd have to be conveyed against the drafters of the contract", "but mr lesnar if he would not have had to fight brock or if mr hunt would not have had to fight by mr lesnar he would not have expended the money the training the other things that he did to fight that fight", "and he certainly would not have expended the time money effort tens of thousands of dollars in travel to be on the ufc one hundred and twenty one card that he was ultimately pulled off of because he complained about the brock lesnar situation", "so i think that while i agree with you that certainly the fraud claim and in my opinion the battery claim which i'm going to get to in a second are much cleaner", "i do think there's a contract and a covenant of good faith and fair dealing here", "and i think that their contract sets forth damages that are recoverable by my client for the breach irrespective of whether he was paid for the fight with mr lesnar or not", "i think that there are damages above and beyond that seven hundred thousand in the contract and outside of the seven hundred thousand that are recoverable for their breach", "i don't know if that completely answered your question judge pregerson but if you had any follow up to that i'd be happy to address it", "i mean just thinking i don't want to take too much time but just thinking this through a little further maybe an expert could testify that the doping provides some percentage of an advantage fifty forty and maybe i'm wrong that it would have to be his only remedy is you know to not have fought at all that maybe there can be a damages calculation based upon on those issues", "i don't know i don't know it just seems tough", "well and i don't disagree that it's a hard analysis and it's a hard it's a little bit of a burden to overcome but i will suggest your honor that i think the contract and i think expert testimony to your point as to the doping advantage but certainly there are damages recoverable for the breach of contract and certainly for the battery i look at the battery and aiding and abetting battery claims and i'm jumping into this right now because i see four and a half minutes left the district court relied on avila and rely on the avila case as the sole reason to dismiss the battery and aiding and abetting battery claims against lesnar in the ufc based upon an assumption of risk theory", "and i can't think of a better way to say that analysis is just wrong", "i coach when i'm not doing this i spend a lot of time managing baseball and every one of my kids that goes up and goes to that bat in our games knows that there's a chance that they're going to get hit that the pitcher is going to either miss or is going to be mad at them and throw at their head or is going to throw it some other that they could get hit with a baseball", "it's a fundamental part of the game okay so when my kids are playing baseball or the college kids in avila are playing baseball when they go to home plate with that bat and that helmet they know right then and there that they could get hit at any moment with a pitch ball", "when we're talking about assumption of the risk in a ufc fight the ufc and zuffa contractually guarantees in their agreements that fighters are not going to have to assume that risk against doping fighters that they are going to get fights against clean fighters", "and just in case it wasn't crystal clear in the contract mr white personally assured mr hunt that he was going to get a clean fight that mr lesnar was going to be tested used some profanities cause that's what mr white does from time to time", "but that mr lesnar was going to be tested", "and what happened not only was he not tested until a week before the fight he was tested and the results were held until after the fight was over so that candidly ufc two hundred wasn't going to lose another draw because they had already lost john jones for a doping violation and they didn't want to lose mr lesnar on top of it", "so this to me is not comparable to avila decision", "this is a clear cut case of battery aiding and abetting battery and damages that ensued from the battery", "and mr hunt did not assume a reasonable amount of risk stepping into the ring with mr lesnar because he had a contract and specific representations and that goes more to the fraud claim a little bit", "from mr white that he was not going to step into the ring with a doping fighter", "so assumption of risk analysis that judge dorsey took looking at avila as compared to this situation in our opinion is misplaced", "and it is a completely different standard", "and mr hunt did not assume reasonable amount of risk just because he's a ufc fighter", "to that point as with the other claims and i kind of touched on this a little bit", "i'm sorry i just have to interrupt you", "i you know i watched a lot of baseball too you coach", "i don't think that deliberately trying to bean somebody is within the assumption of the risk of major league baseball", "i mean what happens is the benches get cleared you throw up a hundred mile an hour fast ball at somebody's head", "i don't think that's part of the game you know yeah it happens and people do it but you tell me that you can line up four batters and the pitcher can deliberately throw at each one of their heads and that's part of the assumption of the risk no i don't think so", "so i'm kind of surprised you go there", "okay and to that point i think that avila doesn't necessarily talk only and i'm more referring to the dissent which i tended to agree with more than the decision in that an intentional pitch ball at someone's head or a negligent pitch ball at someone's head candidly when your batter when you're going up and you know these are college age kids", "and so i don't know what in avila what was going through their minds", "i don't think most people would but when you go to the plate you know that there's a chance that you can get hit whether it's intentional or negligent or otherwise", "i would refer to and judge pregerson sounds like you're a baseball fan", "the astros played the dodgers earlier this season", "and those guys all went up to the batter's box and the astros players one by one had a pretty good idea that someone was going to throw at them and eventually it happened", "and joe kelly missed because he's not very good but he threw the ball behind one of the batter's heads and that was something but the astros players knew that that was a possibility when they stepped into the batter's box that night", "and i would submit that under avila when you played baseball generally whether it's intentional or negligent you know that there's a possibility that you could get hit", "and i think this is a completely different situation specifically because the ufc contractually guaranteed that this was not a risk that he was going to have to assume", "i'm a little over my time but i'm happy to follow up on that question", "all right well let's go over to the other side opposing counsel", "good morning your honors", "my name is colby williams i represent zuffa llc which we'll sometimes refer to as the ufc and mr dana white the president of the company", "i'm sharing time with my colleague mr olson who will be arguing on behalf of mr olson", "i plan to argue for nine minutes", "so okay", "picking up with the contract issue because both judge rawlinson and judge pregerson asked about it let me see if i can quickly knock that out because something that has occurred in the oral argument that has continued to happen in this case both in the district proceedings below and in the opening brief", "and that is mr hunts claims morph", "what you've heard mr boshi arguing is that he was deprived of training expenses and traveling expenses", "traveling expenses was never an issue below anywhere", "and there's a reason for that", "the contract between the parties in section seventy one which is in the record provides that zuffa pays the traveling expenses for mr hunt and that was done here", "there was never a claim that that wasn't done", "what we see is mr hunt gets blocked on a particular argument and then seeks to expand it", "so i just want to clarify that for the record there are three independent reasons why the contract claim fails", "first and i won't spend a lot of time on it but it's emblematic of what i was just talking about", "the issue of reliance damages was never presented", "mr hunt never once argued that he was entitled to quote unquote reliance damages", "the argument that was presented to judge dorsey", "and that's why it's unfair to criticize her for addressing only consequential damages was that he lost his training expenses for ufc fight night one hundred and twenty one", "that occurred after ufc two hundred and thus judge dorsey viewed it as something occurring after ufc two hundred and thus was a consequential damage barred by the contractual language", "that section is section one hundred and five it clearly bars consequential damages", "the fighter is only entitled to recover his purses", "there is no dispute in this record that mr hunt was paid for ufc two hundred", "and i will go further and tell you as part of our summary judgment briefing it is also clear we provided every single bout agreement", "mr hunt was paid every purse for all six fights", "there is no dispute about that whatsoever", "the next reason i think this is probably the most important reason why the contract claim fails is because reliance damages your honors are meant to put the complaining party into position he she or it would have been in had the contract never been performed or had never come into fruition", "you typically see this in the context of a contract and negotiate in good faith where the parties negotiate for a period of time", "one may do due diligence spend money on fees and the deal doesn't come to fruition", "that's a situation where reliance damages may be appropriate", "not here not where zuffa has fully performed and paid every cent owed under the contract", "so unless there's any further question on reliance damages i will go ahead and move on to what the next focus of mr boshi's argument was and that was the battery claim", "mr boshi says that the contract and mr white both guaranteed that mr hunt would fight a clean fighter", "most respectfully that is not correct", "no question that the contract provides that fighters are to honor the provisions requiring them to comply with all nevada athletic commission regulations including rules prohibiting the use of certain substances", "that is agreed but zuffa can't guarantee that a fighter isn't going to take a prohibited substance and can the fighters themselves reasonably assume that that's going to be a clean fight", "i'm sorry judge can the fighters themselves assume that it's going to be a clean fight in light of under the rules of the association they got to follow the nevada", "sure your honor", "i think that's certainly the goal", "it's certainly zuffa's goal to eliminate why would it be unreasonable why would it be unreasonable yeah", "i think this case provides an example of it your honor mr hunt's entire complaint the rico complaint that was such the focus below is premised on the fact that he had previously fought two fighters who came back testing positive for a prohibited substance", "but that last fight was against frank mir in march of two thousand and sixteen", "the very next month is when he signed his current promotional agreement with the company", "so he's clearly aware that that takes place", "the first fight that he gets scheduled for under the new promotional agreement is with mr lesnar", "if you look at the allegations in the complaint and the sprewell case from this court teaches us sometimes a plaintiff can plead himself out of a claim by providing too much detail", "and i would submit that's what mr hunt did here because he recounts his repeated communications with mr white where he is raising questions about mr lesnar and his compliance with the testing program", "and so i think in this case mr hunt absolutely consented to this fight but while it may be an aspiration and one we tried very hard to accomplish that fighters are not going to test positive", "we ultimately can't control what a fighter puts in his or her body either knowingly or not knowing", "so how does this argument relate to the fraud claim how does it relate to the fraud claim yes", "well so the argument on the fraud go ahead judge dorsey found that there was no proximate cause for the fraud claim and that was tied because again the focus below was on the rico claims", "and when she found no proximate cause on the rico claims she found no proximate cause on the fraud claims but we would submit your honor that there is an additional basis upon which this court could affirm on the fraud claims", "and that is none of the statements identified in the complaint constitute an actionable misrepresentation that could have been relied on by mr hunt", "we have a slew of things included but they typically are statements mr hunt made himself statements that were made during the parties contract negotiations which now mr hunt says well i would have wanted this that or the other thing in the contract but you didn't agree to that ultimately but you did agree to the contract nevada supreme court in the road and highway builders case teaches us that you can't have a fraud claim based on allegations that contradict the contract", "and then can you have a fraud claim based on nondisclosure you can if there's a duty of course you can your honor you certainly can have but there's no allegation that there was a nondisclosure here because mr white isn't alleged to have known that mr lesnar was testing positive", "mr white's statements reflect that you saw enough the independent testing agency was testing mr white or excuse me", "but council wasn't there some inference that the tests were delayed sufficiently so that the results would not come back before the bout", "yes judge rawlinson", "that's certainly something that mr hunt has argued and i'm glad you raised it because i want to get to that point", "and it may require me i want to tread carefully and then the court can tell me how to proceed", "the allegation has been made that the first time mr lesnar was tested was on june 28th", "and that's the test that came back positive on july 15th after the fight", "the record will reflect below as part of our motion to dismiss briefing we submitted a request for judicial notice where we submitted all of mr lesnar's testing", "and what i will represent to the court is that reflects far more testing than has been represented by mr boshi", "i don't want to go any further unless the court has specific questions", "was there an exemption sought from any of the testing requirements was there i didn't hear the question judge rawlinson", "was there an exemption sought from any of the testing requirements yes so typically when a fighter has been in the program and retires or leaves the sport for a period of time when he or she comes back they have to be in the program for a period of four months", "mr lesnar was as is contemplated under the doping program", "mr lesnar was granted an exemption to that four months testing window", "who requested the exemption whether it came from mr lesnar or the ufc decided to grant it unilaterally", "i don't know the answer to that question i will ultimately it was the ufc's decision correct correct", "and they were questioned about that by the nevada state athletic commission they provided a written response", "we also included that in our request for judicial notice that was exhibit five to our request for judicial notice", "so let me ask you this", "if there had been no exemption granted wouldn't mr lesnar have been tested prior to the bout mr lesnar was in fact tested prior to the bout on multiple occasions that's what i'm telling you", "we put into the record", "were the results revealed prior to the bout the results were revealed for his first five tests", "all of which were negative but not all of them", "how long before the fight was his last test he was tested the night of the fight july 9th two thousand and sixteen", "well but the result for that come back before the fight", "that's right and that's for all of the other tests that preceded the fight how far in advance of the fight were those all throughout the month of june", "when was the most recent one when was the latest one in june prior to the one the night of the fight june 28th", "and what was the night of the fight july 9th", "okay so between june 28th and july 9th there was no testing that's what the record reflects your honor", "i see i'm over my time and i don't want to take anything no i'll give you time for rebuttal judge pregerson", "i wasn't clear i thought that he had been tested test came out positive", "those results could have been available prior to the fight", "they could have been whether the word is expedited or whatever they could have been made available prior to the fight then the positive result but it was not is that correct in part your honor if i may quickly elaborate", "answer his question", "yes there were five tests", "i just want my question answered", "the two tests that came back positive first was june 28th could it have been expedited there is a procedure for expediting the part i can't answer your honor is whether it would have come back before the fight that's up to usada the independent testing agency", "so i don't know how long that would have taken", "and there's no evidence one way or the other go ahead judge pregerson", "there is no evidence on that the record your honor", "okay there were two positive tests prior to the fight", "is that what you said one prior one the night of", "all fighters are tested the night of because if it turns out typically the way this works with a fight is if you're going to be doping you're doing it farther in advance prior to a fight", "you know you're going to be tested the night of the fight", "so typically those types of positive tests are rare because fighters are always tested the night of the fight", "but in fact this one came back positive and he was fined for it", "but it really didn't matter because he still got his purse basically with you know a small amount deducted for the positive test", "he did receive his purse he was fined", "he was suspended he was fined five hundred thousand out of twenty five million", "i believe he was fine i think it was two hundred and fifty thousand your honor", "mr williams i just have one last question for you switching over to the battery claim do i understand your position to be that he consent that the plaintiff consented to fight a fighter who had doped up", "that is our position your honor yes", "very quickly the judge found below that there was express consent through their promotional agreement", "she also found that there was consent based on consenting to the inherent risks in the sport and given the nature of the complaint that we were here on and given the specific representations that went back and forth between mr lesnar excuse me mr white and mr hunt", "it's clear that he knew that there may be an issue with mr lesnar and there's one additional place where i believe consent is evidenced and the judge didn't rely on this but i believe that this court can because you can rely on anything in the record that supports this issue", "and that would be the night of or for a particular fight fighters not only sign their promotional agreement they sign bout agreements for the specific fight at issue", "the promotional agreement is longer term", "the bout agreement is for the particular fight in question", "mr hunt included the bout agreement as part of his complaint", "so it's incorporated by reference we submit", "we also submitted the bout agreement for ufc two hundred in our motion to dismiss briefing as well as in the summary judgment briefing", "so that's in the record and it too contains the express consent that judge dorsey found", "and the last point i'll make and it touches on something but does nevada law permit those kinds of waivers excuse me your honor does nevada law permit parties to waive liability for intentional towards as an assumption of the risk", "your honor there isn't that i'm aware of in nevada supreme court that addresses that question", "okay well the okay", "the lower court seemed to indicate no", "right well the lower court relied on for that portion of the consent finding relied on avila the california supreme court case", "that's the baseball case that's the baseball case", "and isn't there something qualitatively different between doping and this history of baseball that we have with batters and pitchers and that rivalry i mean when baseball players are found to be doped they strip them of their titles", "they take away their batting championships", "there are significant consequences", "so are you saying they're the same thing i'm saying there that there are significant consequences for doping your honor absolutely", "in that perspective i would say there are in addition to what the athletic commission does with the fines and the suspension zuffa has a set of consequences under the antidoping policy as well that it impacts", "i can tell you mr lesnar has not fought for the ufc since this fight", "go ahead i'm done", "go ahead judge pregerson you're finishing i was just saying that it just seems to me that if a fighter conceals the fact that they're taking a performance enhancing drug that potentially will not only cause them to win but perhaps do more damage to an opponent", "i have a hard time thinking that that is part of the assumption of the risk when you're dealing with you know this context that's all", "go ahead mr william do you have a point you want to make i was going to say this is it", "thank you i understand that", "and all i would say is i think the analogy could apply across a number of sports whether it's a doping hockey player a football player or a mma fighter in this context if a particularly hard hit is leveled during one of those types of games is the recipient of that hit going to be able to go back and seek to use the tort liability to police those types of incidents within the sport and i would respectfully submit the answer is no your honor", "okay okay", "let's hear from your cocouncil", "yes thank you your honor", "mr lesnar mr olsen", "originally sent out to have five minutes so i'll give it to you but i got to hold you to it", "thank you your honor", "david olson on behalf of brock lesnar since we're talking about battery i think we have to put this into focus", "the question when we're looking at a battery claim is whether the defendant owes a duty to protect the plaintiff from an injury", "consent of course negates the duty the existence of a duty because the absence of a consent is an element of the claim of battery", "here hunt has definitely pled in his own complaint that he consented to whatever injuries he received in the fighting cage", "first he expressly consented to accept the risk of injury and even death when he got into the mma fighting cage", "if you look at exhibit b to his own supplemental complaint it's the promotional and ancillary rights agreement at paragraph twelve he specifically says fighter fully understands and agrees that the professional sport of mixed martial arts is an inherently and abnormally dangerous activity that can result in severe and permanent physical injury including death", "and he does by clearly unambiguously and explicitly accept all risks all risks means all risks", "so council is your position that that consent encompassed illegal doping it's my position that that consent encompassed any injury he might receive in the ring whether it's a fighter who has violated the antidoping policy or not", "he accepted the risk of death and serious bodily injury he's not allowed that'd be true if the death came by virtue of combat with someone who had not been doping but the problem is the doping brings a new wrinkle into it", "and there's at least in terms of the pleading on the pleadings", "i am not certain that on the pleadings one could say that he consented to fight someone who had consumed performance enhancing drugs because his inquiries were to ensure that that hadn't happened", "so that's inconsistent to say he consented to something that he was assiduously seeking to avoid", "it's our position that the pleadings are just the opposite of that", "that in fact he did consent to potentially fight a fighter who will fail a drug test", "he admitted in his own complaint that on multiple occasions before he fought brock lesnar he had fought fighters who in turn tested positive", "he admitted that doping is an unfortunate reality in mma", "and that's a quote from his own complaint", "he admitted that he suspected lesnar of cheating of juicing of doping prior to the fight", "yet with all of that knowledge he chose to get in that fighting cage anyway", "and because he did but didn't he also say that was the reason he was trying to get some reassurance that had not occurred in this case", "and would thus we're supposed to interpret the pleadings in the light most favorable to the pleader", "so how do we make the inference that you're telling us is compelled from that complaint we make the inference because although he admits that he sought insurance that there would be no doping or no violation of the antidoping policy", "he never got that assurance he never got a guarantee", "he didn't contract for a guarantee", "the fighting contracts say that the fighters will adhere to antidoping policy", "that's all they say", "there's no guarantee that there will never be a violation", "and he knew there wouldn't be a guarantee like that", "i'm sorry you had a question not a guarantee an assurance", "that's different than a guarantee", "and we're saying that if we look at the allegations in his own pleading we take those allegations as true", "he knew there was no assurance when he got into the fighting cage he knew that it had happened before he knew that it's likely to happen again he knew that it was a part of the sport", "that's his own pleading that's what he said", "you make it sound like it's completely pointless for any fighter to rely on testing or that any other fighter is not going to be doped", "even in the face of making multiple requests is he clean has he been tested or words to that effect", "well in a sense your honor it is pointless because although not in the record when asked to put this in perspective and understand the nature of the sport and the antidoping policy the world antidoping association publishes the list that has literally hundreds of compounds on it", "these compounds are not all performance enhancing drugs", "they include standard medications they include over the counter medications they include substances that may occur in food that you buy from the grocery store packaged food processed food", "a fighter can never be sure that he will pass a test no matter how vigilant he is", "and no matter how much care he takes with what he puts into his body there will never be a guarantee no matter what the rules say no matter what ufc does no matter what usada does never be a guarantee that a fighter will pass a test", "that's just the reality of this sport", "okay so any representations to the contrary are pointless", "in essence yes the fighters can do their best to try to adhere to the policy", "they can never guarantee that they will not fail a test", "you keep using the word guarantee but that's not the standard", "it doesn't doesn't have to be a guarantee", "if there is a misrepresentation or an assurance that was knowingly false that's enough", "there doesn't have to be a guarantee", "if we look at the pleading there is no representation made by brock lesnar to mr hunt", "there is no representation made by brock lesnar in any agreement that provides any assurance that he will not fail on the test", "that representation was never made", "okay thank you council", "thank you", "okay i'll give the plaintiffs appellant's lawyer one minute but you need to turn on your mic", "you need to unmute", "okay", "i'm going to try to blend three minutes into one", "council's argument about mr lesnar and there's no guarantee of antidoping he took steroids he took performance enhancing drugs and got caught taking performance enhancing drugs", "this wasn't some supplement some dietary oh whoops i took the wrong over the counter drug", "he was caught cheating to get bigger stronger faster so that he could put my client in a lifethreatening situation", "that's the reality of what happened", "and the analogy and i'll go to judge pregerson's point with baseball", "there was a pitcher for the dodgers a number of years ago who was a nice pitcher", "he threw an eighty eight mile an hour fastball and he started using steroids and he started throwing a hundred mile an hour fastball and he hit a guy in the head", "and one of the reasons that baseball tests so diligently for performance enhancing drugs is because that situation creates a lifethreatening possibility", "if you've got someone on performance enhancing drugs that can kill someone that's what happened here", "mr lesnar took performance enhancing drugs against the policies of the ufc and the nevada athletic commission for the sole purpose of getting bigger stronger faster and hurting potentially irreparably hurting my client and that's battery", "and in the ufc knew he was going to do it", "and they turned the other way and that's aiding and abetting battery", "and i've used up my minute so", "yes thank you thank you council we appreciate your arguments", 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4540, 2760, 3520, 7690, 8120, 2030, 4480, 5690, 2610, 8750, 3140, 4380, 6410, 6870, 3110, 5688, 7732, 7700, 7700, 7040, 1050, 1830, 1238, 5132, 8970, 833, 3107, 4510, 3664, 4726, 5970, 3330, 3830, 3950, 4160, 3840, 5841, 1029, 4440, 3610, 10830, 7600, 4500, 5290, 12160, 3760, 6200, 4750, 6090, 5777, 3703, 7110, 6240, 8330, 11200, 7930, 6880, 6120, 6470, 8066, 1341, 8493, 6725, 5864, 1691, 1060, 3130, 1530, 2470, 1950, 2237, 833, 1227, 2400, 8200, 6280, 5790, 8490, 3066, 2463, 6970, 6520, 4300, 15163, 6610, 6690, 833, 10267, 4450, 5960, 1647, 3833, 8470, 7883, 7707, 1830, 6790, 10740, 3993], "label": ["nine aylus networks versus apple", "there are some more seats in the back", "marshall if you want to tell people they can file in there's more seats back there now that people left", "yes your honor", "all right", "come on you guys", "i apologize for the chaos", "mr zacar go ahead", "thank you", "so we're here on behalf of aylus looking for a motion summary judgment", "this motion summary judgment with no infringement was granted prebased finding", "the common ground is confidential", "second the district court looked at the best location to find support for its conclusion of claim construction", "isn't it just claim construction you've got claim construction and those are the different sources of claim construction right correct", "the court looked at the court intended to do claim construction but in its claim construction it did so primarily based on principle of claim differentiation", "look back to support that claim differentiation and then said it was confirmed by a couple of statements that we had made and gone beyond", "so i want to address each one in turn because a single primary base for the court's plan was based on the claim differentiation", "and we believe the claim differentiation report misunderstood the difference between claim one and claim two", "let me start with the fundamental inventions", "the fundamental invention is an iphone that controls a control point", "an it server that controls the control point a media service with the content issued", "those are four components of the invention", "what claim one said is one is the communication with one the other one is the communication with the other", "the only way the media can get from the media server to the video editor is if the control point and the control point work together", "that's the only way that it could happen if the two of them okay how about this if you don't mind i'm going to fast forward you", "suppose i agree with you that the plain meaning of the claims read in the context of the spec does not prohibit cp from being invoked in claims two and twenty one", "let's just jump forward and say that i agree with you until that point", "but your hurdle to overcome it seems to me is disclaimer", "now we can give it a lot of different names we can call it prosecution history disclaimer or we can call it judicial estoppel", "but i'm not sure what the right name would be if it applies here", "but that to me is it seems like the heart of what you need to convince us of", "and your honor when i was preparing this that was my conclusion as well", "the issue is really not one of claim depreciation it's whether this prosecution disclaimer or not", "and so there's really two arguments the first is the ipr statement is itself nondisclaimer", "this court hasn't provided guidance on that and i think ipr practitioners would appreciate that", "but i actually want to focus on the second now which is was there a disclaimer in the statement and there are two statements made in the appendix shall i turn to both of those statements the first thing is on appendix nine hundred and seventy three", "and then the second statement is in appendix one thousand and two", "what is our standard for review when someone else finds there's a disclaimer under what standard of review do we review the lower court decision of a disclaimer your honor at the end of the day we will", "and i would actually present to the court to the district court actually didn't find a disclaimer", "they said it was akin to a disclaimer", "it really focused on the claim differentiation argument and really looked at the disclaimer as much as the court specifically said a confirmation", "but let me talk specifically to the disclaimer issue", "the disclaimer was the first sentence", "similarly certain other challenging patent claims require only that the control point", "the control point logically invoked", "so that starts with the word similarly", "here at ja1039 no i'm sorry on one thousand nine hundred and seventy three", "it's in the middle of the page", "middle of the page it starts with the word similarly", "there's the first sentence where the court we said that only that the control point logic be used", "it would suggest to the ordinary reader from the english language that would exclude the involvement of the control", "it would suggest to the user that the only thing that could be used is the cpp", "and what i would say is this case knows exactly what the was", "which is you have a sentence that would appear to go into if this was the entirety of the record i would read that and say that sentence seems to imply that the control point can't be used but it's not the entirety of the record", "the entirety of the record actually a combination of three sentences here", "you should read the next two sentences that follow", "let me read those two next sentences", "it says", "the question going is is only the cpp allowed or is any cpp required and the very next sentence says in other words the challenge claim require select reinvoking of cp logic and cpp logic", "and then the very next sentence it says as discussed above this is a key aspect of the claim invention", "which addresses an important objective namely the reducing of expensive bandwidth in one thousand nine hundred and ninety four studying the bandwidth cost about twenty five cents a minute or whatever", "so your goal what he was planning here was to go to the server remotely to the phone", "but minimize that usage of the cellular communication as much as possible", "so that the free wifi would do as much", "but again reducing does not equal eliminating", "what they are saying apple of their statement was to both", "only the cp is allowed", "it did not say our interpretation is only the cp is required", "and two it said the cpp eliminates the use of the excuse me the cp use eliminates", "and i'm saying the very next sentence says don't eliminate reduce the use i believe this is identical to the sandisk scenario where one statement standing alone one sentence standing alone", "often seem if you took that first sentence and there was nothing else in the record", "yes it would probably imply that would seem to imply that the cp can't be used", "but if you read the next two statements it doesn't say only the cpp is allowed", "it just basically says the cp is required", "it certainly doesn't say the cp can have no involvement because it says you are reducing wireless bandwidth", "reducing would not imply elimination", "you take these sentences together the entirety of the prosecution's statement", "your honor we allege to the court that that's not what about the language at ja1004 which talks about again it has the language only the cpp is invoked", "and refers to that as being in claims two and twenty one", "those are two basically mirror statements", "but i would again argue if you look at the statement look at the very next statement that follows", "importantly these steps are the key purpose of enabling the local wireless network", "whatever such network is available in order to reduce the wireless consuming spectrum", "again what we're trying to do is in this scenario reduce the amount of work that the server on the internet history", "because you're using wireless communication network", "but the idea that a storefront would not be involved in", "we can also step back from the claim to understand what the patent is about", "the patent is about internet delivery of media content", "the first scenario is one is the international server the other one is connection with the media and where logic will imply that the two communicate", "but even if things seem structurally possible where the cp the phone with the wireless communication", "the idea that you wouldn't go to a storefront to pay for something", "what about the pto's response itself to those statements we're looking at judicial estoppel or prosection history estoppel", "and this case at page ja842", "you've got the p tabs saying specifically that talks about the cp logic or the cpp logic exclusively handling the negotiation of the media content delivery", "suggesting that they were looking at this only language and interpreting it in a way that's the way apple is now interpreting it", "and therefore making a decision about ipr institution based on that understanding of the language that aylus used", "i have two responses to that you honor", "the first response apple actually at the district court level argued that what matters is what we said", "and this court should not take into account what ptab said or did", "well it's a legal issue", "yes one thousand one hundred and sixty six", "okay", "i'm assuming you apple", "sure", "should not be considered and i don't necessarily disagree with that", "but let's take a look at what the ptab said the ptab said that identical evidence has been used for claim one and claim two it didn't go into detail as to explain what it found as a distinguishing feature between the two", "and so what evidence could be missing what it did say was it appeared that the cp is exclusively patented", "and that was a actually a fourparty argument at the district court level", "what does the word handling mean and handling your honor one thing that we argue at the district court levels handling doesn't mean an exclusion of involvement right handling mean which is what we were saying at the district court level potential was the cp", "and saying jump on the phone click on this movie pay for the movie get it to me and you just go to cp and all you get is an encryption key is the term", "and you get that information and you go get the content", "handling could easily be understood to mean what we presented at the district court", "which is look you can get the content you can do it select it get your content", "but you're gonna need an activation handling could easily prevent that", "and so what i would say is", "but in the prior art that was asserted against these claims", "both cpp and cp logic were in both correct correct they were capable of being invoked", "both of them were capable of being invoked", "you got around that prior art arguably with regard to claim two and by twenty one", "by a sentence that says only cpp is invoked to negotiate media content between the ms and mr i guess i don't understand the prior art had both", "you say the way you get around the prior art is you only use one", "i don't understand how to reconcile that", "you want me to look at the context of everything and the context of everything includes what were you trying to overcome and the thing you were trying to overcome used both", "how do you overcome that thing if i don't give the same reading to this language the district court did", "your honor without going into a detailed explanation of prior art", "the difference between claim one and claim two is claim one says both of these must be present and both must negotiate to deliver the content claim two is one step beyond", "while claim two says not only must you have the option of having the two of them work you must also have the option of having pure delivery the concept that claim two was delivering was i'm gonna give you paid content", "i can give you in claim two the structure of having the youtube content where i don't want to be involved", "or a website link right the point of claim two is it provides an additional limitation in terms of optionality", "what is the additional limitation the additional limitation is that the cpp it can be eliminated", "it doesn't necessarily require to be eliminated", "the additional limitation of claim two is you can have a structure where only if the cpp does all the content", "okay", "but that was the argument you made to overcome to prior art reference", "right but the difference to overcome the prior art reference was that's a possibility it's not the question that's required", "wait wait wait", "i feel like we're beginning to get confused between the liberty issues with respect to what's allowed", "and in respect to infringement what's required", "what is allowed in a prior art what is allowed to overcome the prior art reference is if there is a structure", "one possibly within the different possibilities that allows to say this is not prior art allows yeah you agree of course just as a basic teaching point", "that something that anticipates a claim if earlier would later infringe the claim right something that anticipates would later infringe the claim correct", "right the analysis somebody shouldn't be able to say one thing to the patent office in order to avoid a prior art rejection", "and then later take a different approach when asserting infringement right correct right", "no i'm not saying that's what we did", "what i'm trying to explain is that what we said to the patent office is that claim two requires two functionalities", "one is both work one is one works", "where do you get the idea that it says both work well claim two requires right the claim should've ended on claim one", "so the logic of claim two would be that you have two separate functionalities", "no claim two would depend on claim one which means it therefore must be narrower than claim one", "claim one required two claim two came along and required only one", "well the narrower doesn't mean an additional in functionality limitations you have that two functionalities in claim two", "your specification also talks about the advantages of in some circumstances having this ccp logic work and sometimes having the ccp logic and the cp logic", "but it provides a very specific reason why in the scenario of claim two you'd want to only have the cp logic work", "isn't that right correct we're trying to eliminate or reduce the bandwidth that's used on the wireless spectrum", "the consequences that you want the cpp to do as much as possible right you want to have the cp do as little as possible because the cp communication is going to cross the wireless spectrum and that consumes money", "and what we're trying to do is reduce that consumption of money", "and that's exactly what we said is that we're attempting to reduce that cost", "and you do successfully reduce it if you use only one right absolutely when you have that reduction one theoretical possibility of reduction is elimination", "we don't disagree with that", "what you agreed to in the beginning was that one sentence read out of context you said would look really bad for you", "and you started on page nine something and i'm on page one hundred and four", "that one sentence appears in multiple places in this record", "this one sentence you said looks bad for you but you said the sentences that come after save us", "but i could interpret the sentence that come after about reduction to you reduce the bandwidth if you use only one", "and that is how you in fact do reduce the bandwidth", "why don't i read those two sentences as consistent with each other", "since reduction if i read the first sentence and it says only this one", "and i read the second sentence it says will reduce bandwidth well yes if you use only this one it will reduce bandwidth", "i don't understand how the reduction sentence saves you", "because reduction is not elimination", "well if we had met to say no involvement the very next sentence would've said the use the cp is eliminated therefore is benefiting in the communication", "the sentence actually in both seven thousand three hundred and ninety three and nine hundred and seventy three", "and in one hundred and four is followed immediately by the issue of reduction", "and i think an understanding of the technology makes it clear that you're never going to provide paid content without", "and so the idea that the cpp would eliminate the use of the cp entirely would not fall into how the payment content is delivered and would be delivered in a logical sense", "okay i think we have your argument", "you've used all your time and your rebuttal time i'll restore some", "let's hear from the other side", "i would encourage you to focus your argument on the same things that he did if you don't mind", "absolutely your honor if it please the court", "what i'd like to do is pick up exactly where we were on appendix nine hundred and seventy three", "i won't belabor the actual disclaiming sentence this counsel can see that that says what it says", "but the law says you can't look at the context but the context here are the following two sentences", "and counsel glossed over the second sentence", "the second sentence on nine hundred and seventy three starts in other words if the court's there it says in other words what we're going to be hearing is restating the same point", "in other words the challenge claims referring to the dependent claims require selectively invoking the cp logic", "and or a cp logic based on whether the ms and or mr can communicate with the uv through the local network", "it's saying that in the context of both being connected which is the context of claims two and twenty one", "that it is the cp logic that is selectively invoked that's just another way of saying only", "so we've got two things saying the same thing right back to back", "and even if you turn to the third sentence which is what the counsel what about the and i'm sorry selectively invoking cp logic and or cpp logic", "right and you wait", "wouldn't you normally say or if you meant them to be alternatives", "well that's because this is covering all three scenarios", "it's covering the independent claim scenario which is both i see okay", "i understand so it says based on whether they communicate it says as discussed above this is a key aspect of the claim invention so what do we know about that that means that this was not a slip of the lip this is something that they were focused on as being essential to their argument to the ptab", "and then we have the language that was just quoted which addresses an important objective namely reducing the use of expensive bandwidth", "we know counsel both in their brief and today stopped there", "they stopped there the sentence goes on", "eg white area cellular networks by implementing", "so now we're going to tell you how this reduction occurs by implementing a least cost routing decision about how to negotiate media content delivery", "well what's the how to negotiate media content delivery well that's what we were just going over in the claims it's choosing either the cp or the cpp or both depending on the network context", "all three of these sentences are saying the same thing the least cost routing decision is the how to negotiate", "and in this case when you pick the cpp as the court is acknowledged that reduction goes down to zero", "you can read all three these things consistently", "can i", "ask you then is it your view that the as discussed above key aspect and the reducing which includes the reducing language sentence", "is a sentence that applies to pretty much all the challenge claims and the arguments made with regard to say claim one as well as claim two or is that sentence really only applying to what is it is it two and twenty or two and twenty one i can't remember what the numbers are precisely that are at issue", "and i apologize your honor but can you point me to where you're", "which sentence you're referring to", "the reducing sentence", "the reducing sentence thank you", "the one that when you just said as discussed above this is a key aspect of the invention which addresses an important objective namely reducing use of expensive bandwidth now if that sentence was tailored only to a claim to argument and if you were right about claim two is one or the other basically only one thing", "then it would actually say eliminating and instead it says reducing", "so is your view that sentence is a broader sentence that applies to all the challenge claims", "in some cases it reduces in other cases it eliminates", "yes exactly it applies to all", "if you go back up into the text it's talking about the different variations", "and so this is capturing all of them", "what about how going up further in the text it actually starts with similarly certain of the challenge dependent claims so it's not talking about claims one and twenty it's talking about the dependent claims right right the sentence immediately proceeds that is talking about the independent claims", "it says based on the determination of the challenge independent claims", "so the first thing the independent claims then it turns to the defendant claims", "you're saying within one paragraph they're hitting both", "and then at the end when they summarize the advantages those are the advantages of and both or either one", "it's not crystal clear which sure", "scenario that's right", "the reduction language that's being pointed to is zero in the context of the claims two and twenty one", "and the claims the situation of the independent claims it would be a reduction", "but the point is all three of these sentences can be read together", "but the first sentence the disclaiming sentence means when it says and the counsel doesn't disagree with that", "and if i could turn your honors to the other disclaimer because this helps enlighten the situation as well", "we turn to one thousand and three and one thousand and four", "again we have to look at the context", "if we look at one thousand and three at the very last paragraph at the bottom of that page it starts to claims one two and four", "disclaimers one two and four as well as claims twenty twenty one and twenty three combined", "to claim three alternative steps", "so here they're telling the patent office that these are different ways to accomplish something depending upon what the network environment is", "then we have the disclaimer itself which is at the top of one thousand and four", "which says if however the ms and mr are both in communication with the ue via the local wireless network then only cpp involved to negotiate media content delivery between the ms and the mr that refers to claims two and twenty one", "there you have a great clear if then situation", "if a then b", "counsel then pointed to the reduced language but if you go down to the bottom of that page one thousand and four we have the same point made", "this says the fact that the upnp this is the very end of the page", "the fact that the upnp does not care how the ms and mr communicate reconfirms that the upnp design cannot and does not teach or suggest this feature of the claims this the key part", "which requires a least cost routing decision based on the determination available networks and so as we learned from looking at page nine hundred and seventy three the least cost routing decision is the decision of the cp or cpp logic is going to be invoked to do the media content delivery", "so again the language of the disclaimer itself is clear and the context surrounding it confirms that they meant exactly what they said", "mr fowler even if we agree with you that this amounts to a disclaimer", "this is part of the polyp way between the petitioner and the patent owner that occurred prior to the institution of the review", "why should we treat that as prosecution history sure", "there's i think two parts of the answer to that the first is an existing case law that the court can turn to to seek guidance from", "first we had the supreme court's cuozzo decision cuozzo said in part that itrs are reexamination", "i have the quotes here if you want", "but they say it has a judicial aspect to it and has a reexamination aspect to it", "but cuozzo didn't draw a line between", "exactly", "preinstitution postinstitution", "exactly that was going to be my next point", "in making that determination or making those statements that is perfectly judicial and perfectly examinationable", "they didn't draw a line saying that some of it's not and some of it is", "the statements are broadly worded statements", "and this court and its prior precuozzo decisions has held up proceedings such as exparty reexamination interparties reexamination and reissue proceedings", "those kinds of statements the same kind of statements that were made here were made there", "constitute part of the prosecution history and can be disclaimers", "and we know those cases in our brief the katz case which had to do with reexamination dupont", "you're addressing now the point about whether or not something that doesn't occur", "prosecution we all typically think of as being that ex parte proceeding that results in the grant of a patent", "reexamine inter partes reexam all this ipr stuff is sort of different", "and what you seem to be addressing now is the idea that statements made in those contexts have nonetheless been held by our court to constitute prosecutions through disclaimer", "don't fiddle with the words judge more we could have called it reexamined disclaimer we could have called it ipr disclaimer but why give it so many different names but i guess the question i thought that judge lynn asked you which i don't think any of those cases you point to address and definitely correct me if i'm wrong", "is but this statement was made before the proceeding was even initiated", "to what extent is a statement made in advance of such a proceeding part of the history that ought to be folded in very good", "there are two parts to that as well", "the cases that have addressed this issue of when the proceeding starts have had to do with for example whether you can appeal a denial a motion to stay in a cpm", "that's an intellectual properties case or whether", "pr estoppel applies that's the shaw case", "and in those cases both cases the court had to grapple with the issue of when does a proceeding start because the right to do those two things or the collusion for estoppel turned on when a proceeding began", "so the court did a statutory analysis as it should and determined that because those two things are based on the proceeding", "the proceeding will start upon institution but that doesn't answer the different question of whether what happened before that is part of the prosecution history right none of the cases that this court has addressed including the hpk", "so those are the really the three cases in addition to cuozzo that addressed this issue", "have said that what happens before is not part of the prosecution history", "it doesn't compel that result either", "well let me ask you a question", "i don't mean to interrupt but let me ask you a question try to shed some light on this", "let's suppose these same two statements were made", "in a colloquy that occurred in a separate lawsuit between aylus and apple", "that would not amount to a prosecution history estoppel because it has nothing to do with the normal prosecution activities that take place in the patent office", "where the patent office has a proceeding before it that will ultimately determine the scope of patent coverage whether claims are allowed or not allowed", "arguments made in a separate lawsuit between parties don't create estoppels like that don't create prosecution history", "why should this argument made in the course of a proceeding that occurs prior to the review be treated any different well that's a very good question", "first of all this is in front of the patent office that's one of the distinguishing factors", "but what difference does that make well i'll tell you because these are the statements made by the patent holders to the patent office for the purposes of coming to the patent office and many of claims is to avoid prior art in order avoid a finding of unpatentability", "that's something that's very much like the original prosecution", "and the same statements that you could see here could have been made in the original prosecution", "and without knowing the context you wouldn't be able to tell the difference", "because in both cases the patent holder's trying to avoid accountability", "and this courts well on prosecution history disclaimers founded at least on two very important public policy public interest policies", "one of which is to avoid the situation of allowing a patent holder to report to the patent office and say one thing to avoid a finding of unpatentability", "which is exactly what happened here", "and then be able to go to the district court and say something else against an alleged infringer", "that underlies many cases that this court is going all the way back to southwall for example", "similarly public notice function", "this court has prosecution industry disclaimers based on the fact that alleged infringers or people practicing patents are entitled to look to the patent office", "the record in the patent office is a part of the record in the patent office", "to see what the patent has said about the meaning and scope of the patent claims", "and the last thing i would say is that even if the disclaimers", "if the disclaimers are made and they're effective then that's it that's it for the alleged infringer in ptab", "because the statements have consequences", "the failure to institute or a decision not to institute is final and not appealable", "you have a situation here where apple made a substantive argument to the patent office aylus made a substantive argument to the patent office", "the patent office although it's not part of the quote marriage proceeding evaluated the merits of the parties claims on the substance", "and decided that it wasn't substantially likely that apple would be able to prove its claim based upon the disclaimers made by aylus", "and having denied that institution apple therefore had no had no right to a remedy", "yes it does", "you can go after it in district court", "there's no estoppel that's what shaw says", "so apple still has another venue in which to pursue exactly the same claim", "that's why it would be so awful if estoppel kicked in earlier wouldn't it if estoppel kicked in earlier then than apple would be arguably precluded", "well i'm sorry", "it didn't have any remedy with respect to what had happened because it's not appealable", "the fact is what happened is yeah but lots of people deal with that every day the pto denies", "and sometimes they don't even give you a reason why and you've got no right to appeal", "in the same quills the same context this is one reason why disclaimers should be plight", "this court has had a well developed body of disclaimer law that applies to statements exactly like this", "and oftentimes you have a disclaimer of original prosecution", "the examiner doesn't require an amendment allows the claim", "but because the patent holder said something in public very clearly that limits the claims", "this court has said that should limit the claims that people should be bound by what they said", "there was no public policy reason or no legal reason why that shouldn't apply here", "where someone's talking to the patent office and limiting their claims to try to avoid a finding of unpatentability", "which is exactly what happened here", "you mentioned i'm sorry to interrupt i want to make sure i get my question in", "you mentioned earlier that", "we have held that statements made during reexamination or probably reissue have been found to be prosecution's history estoppel statements", "my question is are any of those are you aware of any cases where i know the patent owner can request reexamination", "the patent owner can request reissue i think only the patent owner can", "and there can be times when those statements that are made in those requests", "have any of those statements been considered to be prosecution history statements that are important for understanding the meaning of claims well in the dupont case that was a reissue case", "so i think that may answer your question and that was held to be part of the prosecution", "not just the ratio but maybe the preliminary statement before the reissue is actually instituted or granted", "there are some procedure by which the pto looks at the declaration that is provided with the reissue", "and makes a determination for example as to whether that is adequate for the ratio to occur", "is that a situation you're talking about i am not sure of the answer to that question to be honest with okay", "and can i ask you a very policy oriented question sure", "as i'm sitting here thinking about what you said which was helpful because it called to me called to mind to me the purpose of notice", "a person a competitor who wanted to know what the scope of these claims are would likely read the patent", "and if they had any gumption at all would get the entire prosecution history of this patent if there were a re exam they'd want it and they get it", "that's what i believe people would do and so those statements in there put the world on notice at least with regard to what the inventor believes is the scope of his or her invention", "and they affect more than just individual parties and individual cases right they would block prosecution more generally because they're all public", "unlike judicial estoppel where a competitor wouldn't necessarily go after all the documents", "and in fact those could be sealed right confidential so many times all this stuff's confidential", "what's said before the patent office is something that is routinely turned to by every competitor in a space", "they may not have access to know about or have any even ability to acquire things that may or may not be stated in a judicial document", "that's exactly right", "and that's entirely consistent with this court's prior holdings on judicial disclaimer and prosecution history disclaimer and why it's so important", "and i should point out that one of the many reasons why although the same result could be achieved here through judicial estoppel", "the court may not get there and this is the superior way to reach the same conclusion", "okay but again", "that's okay", "we're going to restore a little bit of a rebuttal time for your colleague", "you're all set yeah", "all set okay thank you very much", "okay let's do two minutes of rebuttal", "i'm used to seeing you over here", "two minutes", "thank you your honor", "in the time i'd like to sort of respond to three issues", "the first one was ms fowler talked about least cost value suggesting that that you go to the lowest price", "but in telecommunications least cost value is a decision where you look at alternative pathways to these costs", "that you would take into account load balancing pathways the encryption zone", "the least cost value terminology in telecommunications and entertainment context refers to looking at the cost but deciding within the", "in the end briefing we didn't get to brief the meaning of the word of least cost value is", "but that's what least cost value means", "secondly this court discussed the issue or pipr and whether those should be prosecutionary disclaimers", "your honor the court includes a postinstitution on hybrid proceedings", "the pipr are very similar to do an ipc type proceeding", "where you are truly just going back and forth and explaining to the court to the ptab and saying this is what our patent's about so to hold those as prosecution disclaimers your honor would change the nature of pipr proceedings", "more akin to where the outcome of the patent the scope of the claims can be discussed", "but you're not arguing that the remarks made should go away and be ignored", "we're not your honor", "because they're going to have some effect they should have some effect wouldn't you agree as a matter of prosecution history disclaimer or judicial estoppel", "one way or the other the statement was made it was part of the public record", "it's before the patent office it's in the file history it's not going to go away", "we're not arguing this way your honor", "well if you're not arguing that it goes away then you're stuck with it", "right but the question is whether we should be stuck with it in terms of as a prosecution disclaimer or wherever we should be stuck with it as a judicial estoppel", "i think the the end result in terms of your case it doesn't matter what we call it does it no i understand", "the first one is clear nonequivocal statement the second one is clear inconsistency", "i think you'll understand that they're very different", "again i come back to this case and say your honor please relook at this case in those three sentences in the entirety of the context", "and in those context that was intended to be disclaimer what we were trying to do was to reduce the wireless spectrum that we were using", "okay i thank both counsel the argument is taken under advisement"], "name": ["gov.uscourts.cafc.2016-1599/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_cafc_DOT_2016-1599/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_cafc_DOT_2016-1599_DOT_2017-03-06_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "gov.uscourts.cafc.2016-1599/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_cafc_DOT_2016-1599/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_cafc_DOT_2016-1599_DOT_2017-03-06_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "gov.uscourts.cafc.2016-1599/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_cafc_DOT_2016-1599/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_cafc_DOT_2016-1599_DOT_2017-03-06_DOT_flac_00002.flac", 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-{"audio_document_id": "gov.uscourts.cafc.2020-1165.2020-09-01.flac", "identifier": "gov.uscourts.cafc.2020-1165", "text_document_id": "gov.uscourts.cafc.2020-1165.2020-09-01.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [3910, 2930, 833, 1210, 34950, 10490, 1860, 9121, 2499, 9650, 12243, 8290, 13210, 18403, 11377, 833, 28807, 1700, 17123, 3677, 1500, 9140, 13367, 22993, 19680, 2100, 1975, 7198, 8337, 15160, 3130, 3440, 9050, 8310, 10730, 4280, 7850, 10530, 14160, 9100, 2274, 2756, 10550, 4843, 5000, 9500, 8990, 3170, 8300, 5040, 5223, 16620, 6700, 5400, 8286, 11044, 3280, 833, 1040, 8660, 5530, 15700, 16290, 3420, 9810, 7720, 23713, 2100, 20860, 12160, 2610, 8460, 6983, 13300, 14860, 5883, 9724, 16284, 7439, 5730, 1650, 11110, 16810, 2480, 8290, 12260, 7850, 3397, 17698, 5105, 4350, 3320, 8284, 2936, 9380, 3720, 4780, 2100, 3090, 5640, 3780, 2080, 9560, 4873, 1940, 1363, 4610, 9670, 7700, 4240, 27430, 6550, 4248, 4457, 4701, 6260, 1940, 15940, 4502, 1925, 2100], "label": ["number twenty dash one thousand one hundred and sixty five big baboon inc", "versus sap america inc", "mr reich", "thank you your honor", "so this is the parallel case involved in the award of attorney's fees under thirty five usc eighty five to sap and hp for litigation from the the infringement suit which we discussed earlier and basically for to award to justify an award of attorney's fees under often sickness a district court needs to have to weigh the totality of the circumstances in that case and find some type of litigation misconduct to justify that", "and in this case the district court had a magistrate prepare a report and recommendation on the attorney's fees and the district court basically just adopted it so when", "i don't understand your statement", "that litigation misconduct is is required before fees can be awarded", "that's under oxygen sickness your honor", "so you need to have some you know definitely something of either unprofessional and improper conduct or litigation misconduct", "and it's again totalitarian totality of all the circumstances in a case and including those parties conduct including the improper conduct of the movement for attorney's fees so here would be sap nhv", "and as your honor is aware from the earlier case there's quite a history between the two parties here leading to this case", "and interestingly the the report and recommendation doesn't mention any of this type of history regarding reexamination of sap or the cdm as a petition of sap", "and doesn't discuss how the mapping of the claims of sap on to claim shares team started this and basically then adopts its own narrative of the facts to try to find litigation misconduct misconduct or improper", "what the court found was that that the pursuit of litigation was objectively unreasonable right yes yes your honor", "that's correct", "and basically awarded fees based on some arbitrary line in the sand where big baboon should have known that this the patent would be invalidated in the manner that the court did so basically on based on secret sales then that were filed under seal that would if the patent wouldn't be held invalid that we would have no we would have no idea about", "and then the", "the ministry judge specifically found that that you had been told and in two thousand and eighteen about records that it had previously been produced in two thousand and twenty in two thousand and ten showing the pre critical dates shipments", "if that was the case your honor then it would have been in the reexamination", "it could it would be two things", "there's one in the earlier case the first case where there were records that discuss sales but again thirty one and all that was also in the reexamine", "and by the time the second suit happened we had the declaration of greenspun basically saying everything is present in there but what enablement and sets that out and that is sap then doing", "let's assume for the moment that we reject your position about greenspun and that that we conclude that that provides no contrary evidence to the invoices and the characterization of the invoices as offering the web enabled product for sale in october one thousand nine hundred and ninety six", "is there anything wrong under those circumstances with the award of attorney's fees so basically your honor where is the unreasonable conduct from the plaintiff to proceed to see if these secret sales are in fact secret sales all of this was produced under seal", "all of this was unaware to the 25th", "they had never heard prior to", "he only awarded fees for the time after which you became aware of this right yeah", "so but a significant amount of fees and for a wide range of activities basically for the case going forward", "you didn't do any discovery to dispute all those documents that were provided to you did you there was no there was no discovery to be had it was not in discovery the case the case was still in claims like initial claim construction and claim discovery", "so the full discovery had not even opened in this case", "so to to to to go forward", "so we didn't have you had they they produced these records basically alongside of their summary judgment motion", "now they did offer the will provide declarations and whatnot right now people to depose and a very short time period", "but in view of the prior actions of sap the testimony of greenspun the literature that showed that hey this is not there is evidence saying this is not correct", "these are not on sale in october of one thousand nine hundred and ninety six", "the plaintiff did proceed but what's troubling is in the report and recommendation", "all the sudden the magistrate starts giving a unique narrative of the fox calling big baboon serial litigants which has had one case and won it too", "and then that first case to add plaintiffs to who the judge said no file a second case which big baboon did and then you know in the meantime sap repeatedly twice attacked accountants of big baboon", "so it doesn't i don't the qualification that somehow big baboon was a serial litigant it does not", "it seems it seems incorrect", "and again so", "what's wrong with the district court's conclusion that it was unreasonable of you to continue to litigate after the invoices were called to your attention", "and you were told that the invoices were for a web enabled product", "so they filed a summary judgment motion backing that up", "and then right after that when the summary judgment was filed the plaintiff consented to all extensions and stopped everything while this was adjudicated", "just within really if the position is just because one party merely tells another party hey i've got evidence of invalidates drop it right now", "and that party doesn't show it and that party hasn't brought it", "that would seem very unreasonable to say that that's litigation misconduct if you push forward on that that cause then should i just", "should the plants just take the word of sap sorry you better not do this", "and be able to at least call the hands i guess they say okay you say that and prove it", "and so by the time the big baboon actually sees all this evidence and these declarations and things like that you're at the summary judgment stage at which case big baboon agrees to start saying everything and staying in discovery and staying in and not pushing forward to see what the judge is going to do", "so that to me that is reasonable litigation and it's certainly not wasting the course resources", "so again the mere fact that one party says i have this i got a gotcha", "and you have one party wants to wait and see if the gotcha is legitimate or not shouldn't it in of itself it is unreasonable", "right so as soon as there's any further questions you may open in time", "okay hearing no further questions let's hear from mr", "ham", "good morning your honors", "and may it please the court the federal circuit should affirm the district court's finding that this is an exceptional case and it's resolving attorney fee award", "at its core this case is exceptional because big baboon does not know when to stop", "no matter how weak it's position the district court correctly held big baboon's case on the merits was exceptionally weak and under octane fitness the substantive strength of the party's litigation position is all that's needed to award fees and to find a case exceptional", "there does not need to be unreasonable conduct even though there was in this case this is a unique case in which big baboon's own accusation created its patents in validity big baboon accused the product of infringing its patent but that product was sold before the patent's critical date", "this makes the patent invalid under evans cooling", "and as you've pointed out at least by august 31st two thousand and eighteen big baboon well knew the facts and the law that invalidated its patent", "august 31st two thousand and eighteen forward is the only time period for which the district court awarded fees", "big baboon knew the facts it knew it accused r3 thirty one because it made that accusation and big baboon knew that sap sold this product before the critical date because big baboon had uncontested precritical date sales records which big baboon first received way back in two thousand and ten and which sap reminded big baboon of on august 31st two thousand and eighteen", "big baboon also knew the law", "in june eighteen it was big baboon who introduced evans cooling to this action by featuring the case in its failed motion for partial summary judgment in mid august two thousand and eighteen big baboon acknowledged to the district court that absolutely if it accused the pre critical date product of infringement it should be out of court", "and on august 31st two thousand and eighteen sap reminded big baboon of the evidence and the law showing that the accused product was sold prior to the critical date but big baboon does not know when to stop", "now big baboon argues on appeal", "it was justified in filing suit as retaliation for sap's prior patent office proceedings against the asserted two seventy five pay at patent", "retaliation is not an acceptable reason under any standard for refusing to stop suing on a plainly invalid patent", "big baboon also argues on appeal that it's position on the merits of patent validity was reasonable but big baboon waived this argument by not making it to the district court in any event big baboon's argument is based on misrepresenting", "the evidence we believe as you've discussed this morning big baboon insists the phillips greenspun declaration states the accused product was not sold until one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven after the critical date but the declaration doesn't say that and it doesn't suggest that", "big baboon also argued its litigation position was reasonable because it accused a different r3 thirty one", "than the prior r3 three prior r3 thirty one but big baboon provides no evidence in support of this dual identity theory", "in addition to big baboon's exceptionally weak position on the merits as an alternative ground the district court found this case exceptional because big baboon litigated in an unreasonable manner which is the second path that octane fitness sets out for showing that a case is exceptional", "big baboon abusively filed suits on the same patent because big baboon does not know when to stop", "on appeal big baboon insists it is not a serial litigant that it filed only one patent suit", "that's simply not true", "it's filed one suit on the two seventy five patent in the northern central district of california and when that suit was over it filed a different suit on the two seventy five patent in the northern district of california", "and as sap noted in its response brief on top of that big baboon sued the patent office in the western district of washington to challenge its reexamination decision against the two seventy five patent while big baboon was simultaneously appealing that same decision to this court", "that's three patents suits not one", "the district court also found big baboon's litigation conduct unreasonable because it filed a meritless motion for partial summary judgment", "the motion was meritless because big baboon sought summary judgment based on evidence about a different product r3 thirty e then the product it accused of infringement which was r3 thirty one", "big baboon also argues on appeal that its litigation conduct was reasonable because three times it agreed to discovery extensions", "big baboon's extensions were too little too late", "sap requested a stay on august 31st two thousand and eighteen when it sent big baboon that letter connecting all of the dots about why the court would grant summary judgment but big baboon didn't agree to the first of the three extensions until january two thousand and nineteen that's four months", "during those four months sap was forced to spend a significant amount on this case", "and it's that expenditure which makes up most of the court's fee award", "finally big baboon argues the fee award is too high", "it argues that it is not reasonable that sap spent four thousand five hundred and eighty one hours briefing its motions for summary judgment and attorney's fees", "again big baboon's just not being upfront", "the district court opinion is crystal clear that it awarded fees for one thousand nine hundred and sixty five hours on these motions not four thousand five hundred and eighty one hours", "and i also wanted to respond to a couple of things that came up in mr reich's argument", "he said that the case wasn't in discovery during the summary judgment phase but that's not true", "it was in discovery", "so i think that argument can be dismissed with as well", "and it's as you've pointed out they didn't try to take any discovery on the thirty one products", "so to the extent they say they they they should have had that opportunity", "they just didn't take advantage of it", "so in conclusion the district court did not abuse its discretion in any way and the federal circuit should affirm all challenge aspects of its decision", "is there any questions i'll try to provide a response and otherwise i'll yield the rest of my time thank you", "okay hearing no further questions", "thank you mr reich", "so several quick responses to mr ham", "so first and foremost i'm unaware of why sap brings up the patent office lawsuit challenging the three examinations", "that's a completely different matter and and different procedure for trying to undo a reexamination", "so that's not a lawsuit or a patent lawsuit against anybody", "so and in fact referring him to the to the the opinion to magistrate's report even though they said that arbitrary dates as in two thousand and eighteen that somehow that we that big baboon should have known it was still some time before they did see a declaration or any testimony from rogan campus saying what is going on in october of one thousand nine hundred and ninety six", "and again i don't believe it's reasonable to say that you just have to take someone's word for it before you have to show it to you", "again he also brought up discovery plain discovery was open but not full discovery", "you know basically the fact that you know again mr", "ham called us a serial or called big baboon a serial litigant it had one lawsuit", "it tried to add as the same claim that that lawsuit the district court said please just do it somewhere else", "it wasn't raised in the first suit", "so big baboon had to then bring an action against sap and hp in the middle of the district of california because tc heartland was becoming clear that jurisdiction is going to have to be with people of residence even within the things and that is the law now too", "so with that unless there's any further questions you have my time", "okay thank you mr reich", "thank you mr ham the case is 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-{"audio_document_id": "gov.uscourts.illappct.1-15-1599.2018-10-10.flac", "identifier": "gov.uscourts.illappct.1-15-1599", "text_document_id": "gov.uscourts.illappct.1-15-1599.2018-10-10.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [1044, 14097, 5550, 3850, 4020, 2064, 2540, 4846, 1744, 5070, 4858, 1218, 4204, 3490, 2850, 4810, 7473, 6977, 7000, 4500, 5680, 3310, 10937, 5383, 2613, 6477, 5820, 7730, 6160, 4070, 4640, 3420, 4230, 3480, 6660, 4943, 11077, 4550, 8230, 6903, 3717, 3730, 8060, 8150, 2882, 7418, 4730, 28230, 1523, 2540, 16297, 1820, 1140, 8500, 833, 10707, 9030, 5830, 22542, 1298, 2370, 4557, 17673, 13780, 2440, 2620, 8490, 4450, 9320, 10293, 16027, 17294, 3914, 7682, 6990, 8290, 7660, 2153, 19197, 4100, 5254, 3126, 6610, 9640, 6850, 10060, 7840, 15040, 27230, 2080, 17140, 4765, 3605, 4170, 2540, 9520, 3110, 5250, 15120, 3660, 3090, 17780, 17810, 31880, 9510, 23160, 15470, 10100, 13360, 4683, 2065, 8722, 4963, 1933, 7431, 6087, 14370, 4947, 6713, 2020, 17654, 17776, 4933, 6830, 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yourselves and who you represent and indicate to the court how much time you would like to argue your case", "my name is debra pew and i represent the appellant mark schelling for the office of appellant defender", "i would like to leave some time for rebuttal about ten minutes for rebuttal", "how much do you want for argument let's say let's say twenty minutes and we'll see how it goes", "very well", "hi i'm the assistant state's attorney veronica calderon malavia", "i represent the people in the state of illinois and i'll be asking for my allotted time", "very well", "now remember the microphone is for recording purposes not for amplification", "so if you want to be heard by all your fans in the audience keep your voice up please", "will do", "ms pew good afternoon may it please the court", "my name is debra pew and i represent the appellant mark schelling", "my plan is to only discuss arguments one and two", "and so if this court has any questions related to the other arguments of course i'll be happy to answer those", "so there are two different sets of two different but intertwined sets of improper evidence that deprive mark shelling of a fair trial", "the evidence that was the other crimes evidence and evidence that was actually elicited against him by his own attorney", "this improper evidence combined could undermine any confidence that could be had in this case because of these two errors", "this court should vacate his convictions and remand for a new trial", "now first as for the other crimes evidence now there are a lot of charges in this case and becomes very confusing and jumbled", "so i'm just going to talk briefly about those so that we all know where we are", "so there were twenty one different charges in this case all of them related to contact by phone whether it was calls or texts sometimes when mr schelling was under was subject to an order of protection", "and as the state acknowledges these were all of those charges alleged just verbal threats", "so there was case six thousand eight hundred and ninety eight as they call it", "that was fourteen different counts mostly in two thousand and two or two thousand and twelve going into two thousand and thirteen", "it was harassment of a witness by telephones to aggravated stalking by telephone texting and that kind of thing", "and then with case twelve thousand and fourteen these were seven charges all related to contact on one day april 11th two thousand and thirteen", "it was also kind of harassment of a witness and contact by telephone harassment by telephone", "now the other crimes evidence in this case was of a completely different nature", "whereas the state acknowledges that all the charges here were just verbal threats", "the other crimes evidence was a was of a completely different sort", "this involved breaking into the complainant's apartment or slashing her tires", "these were inperson violent offenses", "and so the first of the first spot of other crimes evidence was alleging that mark shelling broke into the complainant's apartment", "she said that he was trying to steal her television and also that he threw a bottle of wine at her injuring her", "and the other piece of other crimes evidence was for about a month later that he allegedly slashed all the tires in on her car and then left the knife protruding from one of the tires", "so these were sort of very violent and in person and scary and as the state", "was this event before or after either indictment oh this this was all of these were before the other crimes evidence was for that indictment", "in fact the state actually they did indict him on the two counts of other crimes evidence but it seems but then they eventually dropped the case", "they were unable to produce any evidence related to either of these", "to either of these events or to produce the witness that they alleged existed", "and so so it was so so he was first indicted on those and then he was indicted on the crimes in six thousand eight hundred and ninety eight but there was a lot of overlap", "so count seven happened before the other crimes evidence the first set of crimes evidence then there was count eight then other crimes evidence and then everything else", "so it was sort of intertwined in terms of time", "now there's the other crimes evidence was wrongly admitted both because of its lower probative value and it's highly prejudicial nature", "so i mean the proximity of the time is there in terms of looking at probative value there's no denying that", "what what effect does the fact there was a bench trial have on your argument well it does have an effect of course because there's there's a slightly different approach to it if there's a bench trial but here as the couple of the cases for this set with alpha service that if the judge relies on the other crimes evidence that's wrongly admitted and in there the uld the illinois supreme court was saying if the if the defense objects to the admission of certain evidence and the court so allows you can assume that the court relied on it", "and here the court did rely on it", "and one of the things that's important remember here", "what indication is there in the record that the judge may have relied on the other crimes evidence for an improper purpose for propensity and actually propensity because it was because this was a domestic violence case propensity actually would not be an improper purpose", "and so they were actually admitted for that reason", "so so even if he did do that", "what's in the record to show that the judge actually relied on an improper what happened in this case is that there was such a jumbo of different charges", "and", "so you're saying what you have is some comment from the judge well there were especially at a bench trial there were comments from the judge indicating that he didn't differentiate between the actual charges that issue and the other crimes evidence", "so the state really focused on the other crimes evidence at trial so much so that they didn't even elicit evidence related to thirteen of the fourteen charges against him one of the cases", "and then the sort of confusion came came to a head when the judge was finding by showing guilty", "i get back to that that confusion but this was a case that one judge ruled on the motion and then the trial judge heard it at trial right well what happened was first one judge ruled on it and said and then the other judge was actually given another opportunity to rule on it as well", "so it was actually ruled on twice", "and then the second judge went to trial", "so when the first judge was ruling on it and he said this probably meets the threshold of donahoe", "and but but he said that any concerns about dissimilarity of prejudice goes to weight not admissibility but in fact he was required to make a meaningful assessment of prejudice and then the second judge when looking at whether whether or not the evidence should be admitted he said a couple of things that were sort of concerning", "one of the things that he said that he said that it's generally admissible in this type of case not in this case but sort of saying it's generally okay to allow the context but then he put some restraint that made it seem that he didn't actually that he hadn't done the proper analysis of prejudice", "he said that this evidence is violent", "other crimes evidence would help the defense as well", "and it's very difficult to imagine how when you're talking about all those telephone charges how it was violent inperson other offenses could help the defense", "and so that suggests that he did not engage in a meaningful prejudice analysis that he was required to", "and then in filing rochelle and guilty there was a sort of canoodling of of discussions of the other crimes evidence and evidence of the actual charges", "now when he made his ruling on the admissibility was that before or after the testimony came in at trial it was before the testimony came in at trial", "and so he had he had said he had just been assigned to the case he said there are a lot of pleadings i've talked to i've talked to the attorneys but it was actually unclear from the record that he was aware of what exactly the other crimes evidence was in relation to what the charge offenses were", "but the objection could have been reraised after he heard it if there was a concern as to his understanding of the prior judge's ruling and but frankly even if he didn't understand that the prior judge ruled and then he heard it", "the the prior judge ruled on it but but really didn't properly lay prejudice", "and even if and even if he had he had awaited but this is still this was this is not a preserved issue", "and it's still amounts to plain error because of the negative effect of this and this improper evidence of trial because of its prejudicial nature", "so to whatever degree the judge did engage in analysis his conclusion was incorrect given the nature of the evidence that was the of the other crimes evidence", "and then the way that the judge in finding showing guilty relied on it exacerbated any harm of the admission of the other crimes evidence", "isn't oh i'm sorry no go ahead", "isn't that all kind of speculative as to the judge's decisionmaking process well to whatever he spoke on the record i mean the record sort of rebuts the idea that he didn't that he didn't rely on it because one of the things that he says in finding shelling guilty he reads aloud four text messages", "two of those text messages are tied to dates for which shelling was actually acquitted", "so presumably the judge wasn't relying on those and finding him guilty because they acquitted him with those two charges", "then there was a text message that wasn't tied to any data at all", "and then there was a very abusive text message related to the tire issue which was the other crimes evidence", "and so if he's focusing on his text messages two of which the client was acquitted and then one of which wasn't tied to any date presumably he's focusing on the other crimes evidence", "it was the same as talking about the wine shelling breaking into the apartment allegedly and throwing a bottle of a wine with the complainant", "that was one of the judge making the ruling was very terse and so he really didn't say very much about why he was making these findings but everything that he said went back to the other crimes evidence", "and so we talked about other kinds of evidence and also to go into issue two also evidence elicited by defense council", "but it talked about how shelling broke into the apartment and threw the wine bottle and he was very disturbed by the violent nature of that offense which was not one of the crimes that was actually an issue he was really focusing on that in order to find shelling guilty of these nineteen other offenses for which he was found guilty", "and so because he because of the crimes evidence being so dissimilar and so much more prejudicial given both the nature and the extremity of what they're like it was plain error to introduce these other crimes first the evidence was close to the balance as the state assume for a moment that we find that the other crimes have been admitted the next question is whether or not the evidence was harmless beyond a reasonable doubt", "so let's kind of move through the analysis of", "okay well i mean i was because this evidence wasn't because the issue wasn't preserved i was sort of going straight to sort of looking at close the balance and plain unfit for a trial but in terms of being harmful it was definitely harmful because of the way the judge relied on it at in finding shelling guilty", "he didn't talk about the evidence that was specifically related to these phone calls", "he didn't talk about the things that the state was actually intending to prove and guilty of", "we talked about these text messages and he talked about him throwing the wine bottle", "that was really the focus of his finding", "and so the focus of his fighting was on this other crimes evidence so assuming it was wrongly admitted the harmless it was it was not harmless because of the way the the judge relied on it", "and the defense counsel failed to preserve this issue", "and so to argue it as plain error under both prongs first the evidence was closely balanced", "as the state acknowledges in its brief by citing the evidence that was elicited by defense counsel the state did not elicit very much evidence against mark shelling in this case but in fact most of the most damaging evidence was elicited by his own defense counsel", "and additionally to whatever degree this comes down to an issue of credibility", "the complainant had very serious credibility issues", "so the relationship between the complainant and mark shelling went on from two thousand and ten to two thousand and eleven and it involved a lot of money going one way that mark shelling was loaning her money or getting her money it's sort of unclear what was exactly happening but after they broke up he filed a civil lawsuit against her attempting to get the money back", "and then and then it was only after she was served in that civil lawsuit six days later that she brought this charge against him when it dates prior to when the civil lawsuit was brought but she was sort of sitting at any complaints that she might've had and then once the civil lawsuit happened then she decided to complain about these these alleged incidents", "and mark's prior lawyer said that the complainant told him none of this would be happening if mark hadn't sued me and she also claimed to not know anything about a settlement agreement that her attorney had drafted saying that she would drop the cases against him if he dropped a civil lawsuit and and she also came up with a lot of things on the stand that the state had clearly never heard of for instance that she claimed that she had a videotape showing mark breaking the front door of her condo building but that she personally decided not to show the police or the state's attorney because she decided it wasn't pertinent", "and so not only was the evidence closely balanced it's typically a violation of the defendant's right to a fair trial whenever whenever other crimes evidence is improperly admitted", "and so because this other crimes evidence sort of loomed so large over the case in terms of all the questions the state was asking to the complainant the opening argument the closing argument and the judge's finding this court should should remand for new trial on all of his charges because they were so infected by the other crimes evidence and all of that is sort of tightly wound with what kelvin's counsel did in this case", "now the state concedes that this that the prosecutors in this case really didn't provide much specific evidence about the twenty one charges that they brought against against mark shelling and in fact majority of evidence was brought was was elicited by defense counsel", "the state asked him asked the complainant some very vague questions and there was a flurry of dates and allegations that tie him to specific dates to the indictment", "so the state brought these twenty one charges but was asking about some of them involved ranges of dates but the state was asking about ranges of dates that were not even in the indictment and actually only asked her about two specific phone calls that were directly tied to the indictment", "and that was count ten of six thousand eight hundred and ninety eight and then the call that was an issue in the other case", "the defense council your claim's getting short", "okay the defense council reaching the breach and filled in all the gaps and elicited all of his testimony from the from the complainant in order to prove him guilty of all these offenses", "what about the state's argument that it it was a a trial", "strategy strategy yeah", "well if it was a trial strategy the time to stop that strategy would be at the time that you realize oh wow i just proved my client guilty but count against him", "he started out with one and then i think any competent attorney would then say i better try a different strategy", "i also had a better stop asking questions like did he call you on august 8th yes or no rather than asking a question like if he was actually trying to prove that she had very little recollection he could have asked the question like describe anything that happened between you and mark shelling in august two thousand and twelve", "and so she would have had to explain what happened on that date instead he asks her these very leading questions", "did he call you on august 8th how many times twenty to fifty boom that charge assuming credibility that charge is approved", "and it went on like this for thirty pages", "it was after twenty pages of this that he proved his own client guilty of two class two felonies that the state had not even asked or worried about instead of relying on you know what counselors were sorry do you know what counselors were that you just said the two oh the two yes it was count ten in six thousand eight hundred and ninety eight", "and then it was actually all seven counts was i'm sorry was count ten in the first case six thousand eight hundred and ninety eight which was harassment by phone after an order of protection had been had been imposed against mark shelling and then also all of the counts in twelve thousand and fourteen because those were all related to one specific phone call", "and so it was about those two phone calls the one on april 11th and the one on september 25th", "so for all of those reasons i would ask that this court reverse mark shelling's convictions in remand for a new trial thank you very much", "thank you", "again good afternoon", "i'm cook county assistant state attorney veronica calderon malavia representing the people the state of illinois", "yeah", "this defendant has not shown that the introduction of other crimes evidence was error much less plain error", "this case was about a past domestic relationship and a continuous series of crimes the defendant committed against the victim after their breakup", "but this case was also about defendant's theory of defense where he claims that the victim made up these crimes in order to force or blackmail defendant to draft a civil lawsuit that he filed against her", "so both the defendant's past crimes and the victim's past acts where the heart of this case and were both relative uh relevant and probative", "specifically the defendant's other crimes it was they were relevant on several grounds first they were a part of a continuing narrative that led to the instant charges in fact the other crimes were the underlining basis for the order of protection the defendant was charged here with violating", "second they spoke to defendant's state of mind", "he didn't stop with property crimes but he continued to call harass the victim", "his case this case this was not about him getting his money back because he he could have relied on his civil lawsuit for that", "his conduct other crimes show that his conduct was designed to harass the victim after she would not have any more contact with him the other doesn't the law require the trial judge to engage in a meaningful analysis here yes it does", "and the defendant had the benefit of two trial judges reviewing his objection to the other crimes and the record clearly indicates that the meaningful lane of what did you understand it to mean when the trial judge said it will help the defendant well like i said this is well he definitely the defense counsel definitely used the timing of the other crimes to support his theory", "what did you understand the judge to mean when he said that it would help the defendant defendant used the timing the dates of the other crimes because they occurred before they occurred right after she was served with with a civil lawsuit and to support his theory that she just made things up in order to avoid paying him in the in the lawsuit", "so the other crimes evidence also speaks to the victim's state of mind because defendant had previously crossed the line between you know verbal aggression to physical aggression it was reasonable for her to fear for her safety and for her to suffer emotional distress through these telephone calls in which he threatened to hurt her or kill her", "it explains why i should repeatedly call the police why she was constantly in guard changing her routes her route to work and and also explained why she was concerned for her parents", "and since the other crimes evidence speaks to both defendant's intent and the state's the victim's state of mind they were relevant", "in as i stated rebutting defendant's theory of defense what about the court saying that it goes to the weight as opposed to the admissibility i think the court was referring to that with respect to defense counsel's objection to the lack of evidence corroborating these two incidences and was not referring to weighing the the the prejudice versus the permanent value", "the first judge who considered it looked at it's been stated that the other crimes evidence complies with the threshold requirement in the statute and donahoe and both mandate that the court weigh the probative value against the prejudicial value indicating that the first trial judge did too", "and the second judge explicitly stated that this was more probative than prejudicial", "and", "i don't understand is why would the state's attorney office indict the defendant for these offenses drop the charges and then use them in a potentially prejudicial way in a case where they have two more indictments pending", "i mean well that's not why would the state insist on injecting a potentially reversible error into a trial where they have all this evidence of twenty one incidences of telephone harassment texts conclusions", "i mean what's the point well what is in the record is a road misdemeanor counts charge and they were elevated to a felony", "it's not in the record that there were cha underlining which were misdemeanors there were charged as felonies", "they were the record supports the fact that they were charged as misdemeanors and they were later upgraded after defendant kept incessant you know consistently harassing and calling the victim and other crimes evidence it's not injecting it's not injecting reversible error because well it is when the crimes are so dissimilar that the prejudicial effect far outweighs the probative value", "that that's the problem", "the statute at issue here as well as common law requires a general similarity especially when modus operandi is not is not at play and that is not a play here", "and we it totally meets the general similarity requirement of the statute and common law there was the same victim it had they all occurred after the breakup and they're all forms of aggression", "you know whether it's verbal aggression or visible physical aggression aimed at intimidating the victim because she would refuse to have any more contact with him", "so when we look at the record it was properly considered and nor was there any nor was it improperly focused on by the state or or the trial judge", "the state merely put it on first because it occurred first and the text was introduced because regarding to the tires because the texts connected the defendant to the slashing of the tires", "the victim did not see that the incident", "and there's also nothing in the record to show that the trial court improperly considered this considered this", "in fact this is a bench trial and is presumed that the judge follow the law and consider the other crimes evidence for only its limited purpose", "and there's affirmative evidence in the record that he did so", "the trial judge acquitted defendant on two of those counts", "so therefore he did not blindly and look at other crimes evidence", "what that shows is that he looked at the evidence as to each count and determined whether defendant was guilty or not", "and so your honor there was no absolutely no abuse in this case and we ask that you affirm the trial court's ruling", "what's your position on the defense attorney proving the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt six or eight counts where the state presumed presented no evidence to support those counts for their crossexamination defense lawyer did", "on that on that i will concentrate on the counts one through six because we've conceded that the other counts are merged and defendant's whole ineffective assistance of counsel claim is based on the allegation that the state did not present any evidence that he committed the offenses one through six which were covered by which covered the dates between november 26th two thousand and twelve which case are you talking about one through six and and indictment one which is he only raises an effective counsel indictment one which counsel referred to as sixty eight", "six thousand eight hundred and ninety eight mmhmm right", "the ineffective only focuses on that indictment", "okay so counts one through six cover the dates between november 26th two thousand and twelve and march 10th two thousand and thirteen", "it's not accurate that there was more evidence submitted by the state although i missed it in my brief i admit on page thirty five of the record the state asked he trained november 7th two thousand and twelve and november twenty six of two thousand and twelve how many times did defendant call you i'll quote first quote", "the victim answered hundreds", "and she also stated that the calls were becoming progressively more scary and threatening", "what this means is that the state elicited undirect the defendant made threatening calls on november 26th two thousand and twelve", "and that's one of the dates covered in counts one through six", "so because there was some evidence that the state elicited such evidence during the direct examination of the victim it was reasonable for defense counsel to ask about this period of time since it dealt with the most serious allegations in the indictment", "the defense counsel record shows that counsel pushed the victim and asked specific questions in order to challenge the credibility her truthfulness and her motive especially where the victim at times was vague and imprecise", "this was sound trials strategy but even if this court finds that it was a mistake in asking these specific questions it was still not it was still not constitutionally deficient", "defense counsel did not just elicit damaging evidence and move on for no tactical reason", "he challenged that evidence", "he tied his questions about november 26th two thousand and twelve and march 10th two thousand and thirteen to his theory of defense that the victim fabricated these charges against him to force him to drop his civil suit", "again it was the record shows that immediately after asking the victim about these time periods defense counsel pursued a line of questioning that he attempted to connect these calls bad calls which the victim attributed to the defendant to three zero nine numbers that were linked to the victim's childhood friend nick and his company and incidentally defense counsel also presented a witness to attempt to promote this theory about calls", "and if you look at the closed defense counsel's crossexamination he got the victim to admit and share received thousands of dollars from the defendant", "the victim was forced to explain why a defendant's checks have the word loan written on them", "she was also forced to explain a promissory note that she allegedly signed a document that she drafted and that she signed and drafted where defendant would promise not to sue her and pay or ask for his money back", "and he also district has explained a draft or a draft of settlement agreement that was prepared for the attorney and finally a defense counsel also presented a witness that witnesses who attempted to establish that defendant could not have called the the victim on november 26th two thousand and twelve", "so if we look at the record there's plenty of evidence that counsel elicited the challenge for victim's credibility and and this was a reasonable trial strategy", "is the evidence closely balanced i would say no the evidence is not closely balanced", "true that there are two different accounts here but the piece of the strongest corroborating piece of evidence in this record is the april the defendant's the recording of defendant's call to the victim in april of two thousand and thirteen where he's heard aggressively demanding to listen to his gutless her gutless parents", "he wanted to talk to her gutless parents right that call occurred after the order of protection it occurred after defendant was repeatedly arrested for illegal contacting the victim", "it occurred after misdemeanor charges", "it occurred after the falling of the first indictment", "that strongly corroborates that her testimony the defendant calling her was truthful and it strongly rebuts defendant's theory of defense", "so that strong piece of evidence takes this case out of the closely balanced prompt", "well but even if it's i'm sorry go ahead", "no go ahead", "even if the evidence is not closely balanced our analysis also requires us to look at the seriousness of the error", "with respect to in terms of the admission of the other crimes", "evidence is just here's just mentioned you had a tons of information that you were able to use at trial you didn't even need the other crimes evidence", "oh i disagree", "as i stated it was relevant to establish her state of mind of how she reacted it was relevant to to rebut his theory of defense that it was just about money and about her not having to pay him money back i think it was very relevant and and and there was no abuse of discretion but going back to defense council's performance this is his performance was totally unlike the cases that defendant cites to well could you just and i'm sorry to interrupt you but counts in case six thousand eight hundred and ninety eight counts nine eleven twelve thirteen and fourteen", "was there any did the state provide any evidence other than nine eleven twelve thirteen and fourteen okay on count nine right", "i would look to the record on direct right twenty no i think twenty six through twenty seven", "she asked a question between about calls from june 7th two thousand and twelve to september 25th two thousand and twelve what's the other account nine eleven", "okay count eleven direct there's testimony of calls on page y thirty four and eleven on twelve there november twenty six was discussed on y thirty five and what other count the only twelve thirteen and fourteen", "okay twelve block the data discussion of black calls on a direct on thirty five and count thirteen", "there was no direct with respect to that however november twenty six", "and that date ranges between november 26th two thousand and twelve to march 10th two thousand and thirteen and on page thirty five undirect the victim testified that she got her harassing calls during november 26th two thousand and twelve", "the only count there was another count that there was no direct evidence was count seven which defendant was found not guilty of", "and and and he was found not guilty because that only was a nondirect", "the text messages were never tied up to that date", "she could not remember did not recall the text messages", "so there was no evidence", "i direct her across to tie to october twenty 21st two thousand and eleven", "so this case is different than the case of cited by defendant where attorneys they're elicited in the misspelled evidence like a police like contents of a police report or listed on challenge damaging evidence here defense counsel your honors aggressively challenged the victim's testimony her credibility and motive presented an unidentifiable theory of defense regarding all the accounts", "so looking at the totality of counsel's performance which strickland mandates defense counsel who was who was partially successful was not constitutionally deficient", "can i back just finally i'm reading the conclusion of your your reply version", "mmhmm", "and it says the people of the state of illinois respectfully request that this honorable court in thirteen cr sixty eight ninety eight reverse defendant's convictions and remand the case for a new trial", "that was a mistake on my part and i would ask this court to look at the content and the substance of my argument", "that's kind of what i thought but yeah", "and then so", "we shouldn't consider that an admission uh no so i would ask this court to consider the arguments i made today and the arguments contained in my the argument in my opening in my brief and affirm defendant's convictions in in both cases", "very well thank you", "thank you", "ms pew briefly so there's been a lot of talk up here about the ranges of dates in six thousand eight hundred and ninety eight and the state did ask to complainant about the range of dates of november 7th to november twenty six", "but the range of dates discussed here is november twenty six to march 10th", "there was never any specific testimony about november twenty six", "there was just endless range of dates march 7th to the twenty six were their calls and she said that there were but there was never anything to tie it specifically to the twenty six or certainly nothing to tie it to the 26th of november through march 10th there was just no there was no testimony whatsoever about those about about those dates", "and so those counts of the state did ask about the about the 7th to the 26th but that's actually not tied to any specific counts in the indictment", "and as for the claim that that the state started discussing the other crimes evidence first because it came chronologically that is not true", "count seven came before any of the other crimes evidence", "and then there was the first set of crimes incident then count eight then the next count next to other crimes evidence and then everything else", "so if the state had been trying to focus on everything chronologically in that frontloading was highly damaging violence text evidence they would have done it to they would have done it that way starting with count seven", "it wasn't chronological", "additionally order of protection was not granted until december two thousand and twelve", "so there was no order of protection related to the other crimes evidence that was that was admitted", "and there's also a suggestion that the state needed the other crimes evidence so that the defense so that so that they could prove why the complainant felt scared", "the complainant was not required to corroborate her own fear", "this is not something where we don't believe the complainant if she says she's getting these terrifying these texts these harassing calls or texts that she needs to corroborate in some way with some violence that's that's not the kind of justice system we run here and that was not necessary", "and there's a big difference between mark shelling sitting at home on his couch at night watching tv calling texting versus actually going out into the road and doing these violent things", "so even if there was a hearing on the other crimes evidence it was still extremely prejudicial", "and as for as for counsel's questions he could have relied on the state still to prove her guilty to prove mark shelling guilty beyond a reasonable doubt", "it's not that he was completely incompetent", "he did bring other evidence", "he did show the history of money but he also refused to rely on the state's requirement that they prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt", "and instead just elicited evidence", "this case is actually quite a bit like jackson which i cite in my brief which is a case in which defense counsels elicited one element of one offense", "it was i think it was two questions that are listed in that element and led to a reversal", "here we have thirty pages of that", "and so because of the highly damaging testimony that he was able to elicit as well as the highly prejudicial nature of the other crimes evidence we would ask that this court reverse on all charges and remand for a new trial", "very well thank you", "thank you", "thank you both for briefing an argument on this matter we'll take it under advisory"], "name": ["gov.uscourts.illappct.1-15-1599/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_1-15-1599/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_1-15-1599_DOT_2018-10-10_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "gov.uscourts.illappct.1-15-1599/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_1-15-1599/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_1-15-1599_DOT_2018-10-10_DOT_flac_00001.flac", 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-{"audio_document_id": "gov.uscourts.illappct.1-16-2943.2019-11-26.flac", "identifier": "gov.uscourts.illappct.1-16-2943", "text_document_id": "gov.uscourts.illappct.1-16-2943.2019-11-26.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [2479, 3750, 1709, 2560, 833, 5057, 1666, 1981, 833, 1009, 13980, 14560, 13027, 4256, 9147, 4640, 860, 8550, 3110, 1070, 21790, 7329, 10350, 2860, 1260, 6260, 3260, 7300, 1563, 4477, 3540, 2720, 2190, 1400, 1147, 14863, 13900, 2150, 7050, 13233, 7140, 2340, 4040, 4260, 4760, 1990, 7740, 3740, 7500, 3800, 3047, 3660, 1371, 1784, 1535, 1443, 5290, 5748, 7062, 3770, 2359, 1371, 17460, 2190, 2517, 17213, 3930, 4230, 5390, 1740, 4380, 8550, 833, 6327, 4610, 8130, 10893, 3070, 833, 7987, 3160, 1870, 10840, 5330, 3950, 6713, 12887, 3003, 3497, 6370, 9990, 9480, 4830, 8020, 6320, 1420, 7700, 8453, 11290, 1570, 7910, 5790, 8110, 5400, 1620, 2080, 5660, 4480, 7220, 7120, 1810, 7630, 4230, 4150, 4367, 3823, 3850, 3310, 11210, 14690, 8173, 4747, 3263, 3897, 2890, 4150, 7370, 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as in victor ers", "thank you", "may it please the court", "as always i would welcome direction from the court division if particular or nuance of mr gatch's appeal that you'd like me to focus on the first but otherwise my plan is to initially rest on our briefs on our first issue that the evidence was insufficient to sustain the conviction", "and then the alternative our third issue that the trial court's error of not giving the proper instructions to the jury during voir dire under rule 431b mandates that he get a new trial but i want to focus on the second issue we raised", "mr gatch's fourth amendment rights were violated which means that the motion to suppress the additional evidence and the acquired knowledge from the police should have been granted and not allowed to trial because the police came to his apartment to arrest him with no probable cause", "and there were no circumstances that would have authorized a warrantless entry into his house", "if you're going to start with that issue do you believe you properly preserved it yes it was fully briefed and a suppression hearing was held and that was going on", "it was not necessarily mentioned in the motion when we trialed but under enoch it was a constitutional issue", "it was discussed", "and this is something that is appropriate for this court to hear on appeal as you are sort of reviewing a full transcript of this and can make that determination", "then again staying with that issue", "yes", "you've got it's the middle of the night there is clearly a fire that occurred in the stairwell absolutely everyone agrees to that set by an unknown person and a neighbor identifies this defendant as being the likely person who started the fire after watching the video", "yeah the two building management individuals told the detective after watching the video that that's mr gatch which is true because he was on that video in the later video clips of course", "and why do you contend that that was not sufficient for the police to enter the apartment of that individual okay and i don't contend that", "again within a few minutes of when all this really occurred", "well two points judge", "so there's the probable cause issue which keeping in mind the detective made this determination about two hours after that fire was set", "so this is not a matter of five or six minutes and then the police are there", "but for the probable cause issue some of the best evidence of that is that the idea is that a person of reasonable caution would have committed that offense", "this was a process of elimination case", "here this video the unknown person goes in the direction of 3b and 3a", "the detectives know that but there's kind of a jump to judgment there", "the building manager is saying that that's mr gatch", "the detective said you can't see the individual's face", "the clothing is different for that", "so that is kind of a jumping the gun", "and the state's own authorities have been quoted or stated in the briefs that are talking about bauer and james talk about much more specifics in both of those cases a specific defendant fought or argued with the victim of the arsenal only twenty thirty minutes before the arson was set", "the arson was set in a very specific area that that defendant was known to have access to in which case his own townhouse but not away from him but towards the two other residents or an apartment of the victim that he had a key to but had gotten into the building without permission", "so that was a narrowing that's more", "but here we know that that the person that they identified lived in the building", "yes lived on the third floor had access to the stairway and was identified on the surveillance video by the caretaker in the building who was familiar with the defendant", "so where do you go from there okay i guess part of it is the identification aspect", "now we keep saying identification the detective just said that", "but what the detective said is that they told him they saw mr gatch and knew him", "and there's no doubt mr gatch is in that stairwell approximately twenty minutes after the fire", "that connection is not as specific as the case decided by the state that i've been discussing here", "but i understand that this is a narrowing here", "and the idea is that apartment 3b and 3a not knowing who all the residents of 3b might be we're arguing was insufficient for the probable cause finding", "but even if this court agrees that there was probable cause for the detective", "the issue was whether the police had the ability and right to go through the door of mr gatch's apartment 3b with no warrant", "and that's one of our most highly protected things in the constitution your honor", "the first time whether they had the right the first", "well exactly your honor the courts only wrote the second time the second time's in the circuit court we won't chase you", "it didn't back in time okay", "we don't want you to change anything about that of course", "but yeah the first time", "and there was clearly no warrant", "and so what the prosecution argued at the trial there there was an exigent circumstance", "and this is a very specific limited exception which did not exist under the facts of this case", "are you talking about the community caretaker exception i will and planning to your honor because we've fully briefed out in our opening brief that state did not seem to respond", "and they were clearly going in to arrest that's police investigation", "that's not what the community caretaker provision is about", "of course", "here though the circuit court in it's finding seemed to focus exclusively on a single sentence about that he was upset or sad on the day before which the detective learned from the two building managers some indetermined time talking about the loss of a lady friend in their words who had taken her own life", "but that was some unknown time in the future", "this was approximately two hours after the fire was set", "and the court elevated that unknown emotional setting of the individual of mr gatch at best to that they must go in the apartment right now because the detective testified basically he's going to start another fire to either harm himself or try to set this whole building on fire", "and that is a leap too far based on the information that he has", "and that goes to the factors that are listed first in the illinois supreme court and foskey", "they went through a variety of factors not all need to be there but mr gatch was not armed", "there's no evidence of that", "one of the things they look at the most is the grave nature of the crime the violent nature", "but he wasn't armed but possibly he had the capability to set another fire and that's what's more specific to this case", "well that's true your honor", "but the video itself shows that the individual they're kind of putting a small plastic bag down that you can get in any drug store and a fire started", "this was not cans of gasoline being thrown around not an incendiary device", "every one in that apartment building had the same means to start a small fire assuming that they had a lighter matches or any other common household items", "so there's no information which foskey discussed about knowing a specific record or a homicide or a violent beating taking place which are the nature of the cases discussed when they mean violent to nature", "the police the detective's own words also kind of cut against that", "they went up there", "he was scared or feared for the worst when he knocked at four o'clock in the morning and no one answered which is not an uncommon experience", "and he forgot to check for fire when he went inside", "that's the detective's testimony", "so that being some concern i have to go in there without a warrant even though getting a warrant in city of chicago there's twenty four hour felony route to get that process started", "he wasn't worried enough to actually check for the fire which is his reason and rationale for going in", "that doesn't rise to the level of exigent circumstances from the cases discussing foskey", "and it's not enough to overcome the powerful protection of the fourth amendment for someone's own home to going in without a warrant", "well did he have to have a continuing concern when he went into the room or the apartment and found the defendant asleep on the couch he had to have a concern to go through the door without permission from mr gatch", "it's really just really crossing that threshold that we're talking about there", "well that's what i would think the focus would be", "but now you seem to say that he needed to have a continuing concern when he got in the apartment", "well if the only concern that's been expressed in that the court found that a fire was going to be started seeing mr gatch sleeping there doesn't delay that concern", "him seeing there maybe him sleeping he may first see him so shows where she is but if they're concerned that the fire had already been started that is what they testified to", "that is what the circuit court expressly said when finding those exigent circumstances", "and so choosing not to search for it i'm just saying is demonstrating that maybe it wasn't as pressing a concern as possible", "and under foskey in another case to discussed by that none of those situations rise into exigent circumstance", "there's such a leap there", "and the idea of just being upset the day before also doesn't seem to suggest that yes this person is going to be setting another fire two hours after the first one", "there is a lot of missing leaps of logic to get that as necessary to go in without a warrant which is what we're asking this court to find today", "assuming that we don't find for you on your first two issues the third issue the 431b violation", "yes", "the remedy that's available is dependent upon whether this was a closely balanced case or not", "now the question i have for you is you suggest that this is a closely balanced case", "why variety of reasons your honor certainly that the identification at the end of the day was not i saw mr thomas gatch and his face right there", "we're already talking about as mr ceniceros admitted he doesn't know who the person in the dark clothing is", "they have reached to that conclusion", "and the jury of themselves are telling us that", "they ask about the clothes the dark clothes that they wanted to know what was going on with that", "they asked about the testimony of mr ceniceros to get a transcript of that was sent back", "and given that the admonition that was not provided the defendant has no obligation to present any evidence at all", "and they are now talking about evidence that they wished that they had that they don't have that shows that it is potentially closely balanced in the juror's mind", "and that's really the issue for closely balanced", "it's not you're suggesting we can read jury notes to determine whether it's closely balanced well i'm saying that it's certainly something that the jury is communicating", "does a jury note say we're split that's not the evidence i'm asking for", "but it's demonstration that the evidence itself wasn't as clear cut", "if they didn't need other questions or had a bunch of questions they wouldn't ask for that", "but closely balanced doesn't mean there has to be two equal competing narratives", "the error was not giving this precise instruction", "the jury itself was talking about evidence that wasn't presented", "and given that there is no straight forward identification there is no forensic evidence that exists in some of the other reasonable doubt cases that are discussed by both parties earlier in our briefs", "is it your decision then that on your third issue and following up to justice hoffman's question the evidence doesn't necessarily have to be closely balanced in the sense that there's evidence on one side and contradictory evidence on the other side as opposed to just being very weak", "yes it's closely balanced so the jury could be going is really agonizing for lack of a better term to kind of what the decision they're going to make for that too", "and the nature of criminal prosecutions and our constitution allows the defendant doesn't have to resolve evidence", "closely balanced can't mean there has to be evidence from both sides", "that's not what the constitution allows for or protects against", "so yes it's that it's weak it's not clear", "this error mattered in how the jury reached their decision", "and given that those are the only twelve people who truly know how they're going back and forth the reason i brought up the jury instruction is because it's the only little insight we have", "but if it's so overwhelming there's indication they wouldn't need to ask about something", "they could just make their decision", "but yes justice hoffman to answer your question i do believe it is closely balanced", "can't we ask you in the time remaining to just briefly address the first issue of course your honor i mean this case is a little bit like a game of clue and it's all circumstantial", "yes your honor and you do have somethings recorded in video", "yes", "the transcript is not as helpful as perhaps a reviewing court would like in terms of how it was presented at the trial in terms of identifying different frames of the video et cetera yes your honor but all that being putting that aside the jury sat and listened to all this", "and we have a strict rather stringent standard to review this in light most favorable to the prosecution", "and why do you contend that when you view it in that light the jury couldn't put all these pieces of the puzzle together and say it must've been him", "okay your honor", "so in the light is favorable to the prosecution is all reasonable inferences but it's not taking all the evidence the way the state wants you to take it", "and that's really what we're focusing on here", "we call it speculation", "the unknown person in the dark clothes went off screen on the clips one and three basically somewhere between 3b and 3a that is multiple people there", "there are two different apartments there", "and so the idea that we don't have a clear identification we have no forensic evidence", "the only other person who testified who wasn't a police officer or a fire marshall has a motive and even contradicts themselves", "i know it wasn't phillip my partner but i didn't wake up until this fire was already set the fire we're talking about was already there", "we're saying that that rises to the level of speculation", "and certainly the cases decided by the state and we even talk about our brown's law and brown there is that there's a lot more for the circumstantial evidence because you can create a story because you can create a narrative and want the jury to adopt it doesn't necessarily mean that that's sufficient circumstantial evidence that this is something the court should allow to stand", "and that's the argument we're making here there", "can the state make a narrative they did absolutely i understand that", "but given the authority that deals with circumstantial cases there wasn't no threat from mr gatch", "there was no clear identification", "there was no forensic evidence", "and there were two apartments accessible by that person in unknown dark clothes that came off there", "and given that that doesn't rise to the reasonable doubt standard that we want to put someone in jail or prison for a period of time", "and if there's no additional questions from your honors i will reserve my time thank you", "thank you counsel thank you", "state may it please the court counsel", "my name is claire wesley conway", "i'm an assistant state's attorney and i represent the people to the state of illinois in this case", "i'd like to address the first issue that the defendant raised in his speech which is the sufficiency of the evidence", "the evidence in this case established the defendant's guilt for aggravated arson beyond a reasonable doubt", "the videos in this case obviously narrow the focus", "and it's more a case of which image we try to eliminate the possibilities of other people who have an access and living in that apartment building to have committed this offense", "and the videos in this case they clearly show that the arsonist came from the area of apartment 3a and 3b", "3b is occupied and leased by the defendant himself solely", "there's no evidence that anyone else ever came or left that apartment that day", "the maintenance worker who testified at trial testified he reviewed the videos", "there's no one else coming from that area", "we have the testimony from craig martin", "craig martin is the occupant of apartment 3a", "he shares that apartment with his partner phillip robinson", "craig martin testified that neither he nor phillip robertson left the apartment at any point", "your opponent would say that makes no sense because he testified he was asleep", "so how would he know whether phillip left the apartment or not correct if he was asleep but when he woke up his partner was right there", "okay yeah yeah", "and there's evidence that his partner is africanamerican and defendant in this case and the video would submit that it was not someone who was africanamerican", "how do you assess so the jury i'm sorry", "sorry ms conway sorry", "how do you assert that the video demonstrates the race of the suspect the video is terrible quality and you maybe for a millisecond you might see a shadow of a face", "i mean in terms of starting the fire you don't see a face at all right correct correct so the only time you see even remotely you see a face in the video is between the two apartment from my view of it it's consistent with someone who is caucasian", "and then the jury got to be able to view that", "and from its verdict obviously found consistent with that", "the jury was able to view the testimony of craig martin", "we don't have a description of craig martin and how what his make and size and everything like that was from the record", "but the jury had that before that", "so the jury could see if the defendant matched the size and the shape and the frame of the arsonist in this case from the videos", "and that's exactly what the maintenance worker did in this case", "he said is there anything distinctive about what you see in the video in terms of an anomalous physique or anything like that it could be any number of average people couldn't it correct it could but again his testimony doesn't discount the defendant", "again it's a process of elimination where we're narrowing the focus onto the defendant", "and the maintenance worker said yes that he couldn't identify the defendant from that still shot from the video but the defendant was the same shape size and height as arsonists in this case", "again pointing towards the defendant", "i'm not saying explain to me", "that's the linchpin of like oh we win at the best one of those it's all a matter of steps that are taken and all the reasonable inferences that can be made from the evidence in this case", "so we have his testimony", "we also have the testimony from the maintenance worker that he watched the video from camera eight and he was able to determine that the person walked towards the defendant's apartment upon returning from setting the fire", "and approximately twenty minutes later we know the defendant was in his apartment twenty minutes later after setting the fire because he changed his clothes", "and then he walks out of the hallway", "that time he's not so disguised", "then he walks down to the same exact stairwell where he just set the fire and the firemen are still there", "consciousness of guilt changing the clothes walking past there", "then he goes down to the lobby and he spends a significant amount of time with the two maintenance workers who are trying to remedy this situation and watches them as they're viewing the videos of this case all of this evidence twenty minutes after he sets the fire actually shows his consciousness of guilt", "he was there", "he was available and it could have been him from this and all of this evidence narrows the focus on to the defendant as the arsonist in this case because we know that there arsonist didn't come from 3a cause it was either 3b or 3a", "we know it's not 3a and the jury accepted that", "and any prongs that this court may have regarding the credibility of craig martin in this case the jury resolved that", "and those are issues that the jury have to resolve in this case", "cause they saw his testimony and they could too determine from his testimony whether or not he could have been the offender", "now at trial the defendant asserted a defense that it wasn't him", "it was somebody from 3a", "now in appeal he asserts for the first time that it could have been there was someone perhaps in his apartment at the time that set the fire", "there is absolutely no evidence that there was anyone else in the apartment with the defendant", "there's no video evidence", "the video was looked at by the maintenance worker", "he said he did not see anybody else come and go from that area", "and the defendant lived in that apartment by himself", "so we submit that the evidence established", "all right look i think he only had five people testify", "correct", "you've got mr barker the owner who wasn't there", "correct", "you've got mr martin who was asleep with phillip", "yes", "and then you have the arson investigator who was on the scene after it all happened", "yes", "and officer granadon who also didn't get to the scene until after everything happened", "correct yeah they were investigating", "so the only person left is mr ceniceros", "correct", "and let's just talk about him for a minute", "okay all right", "he's the maintenance worker right", "he's the one who identifies says i looked at the video i recognized the defendant", "right well or something", "are you talking about at trial or are you talking about the motion at the motion at the motion okay", "so if we're going from to the motion there's testimony from the detective who spoke to him and from the detective testified that the two maintenance workers both told him that's the defendant", "and the defendant the whole role of the defendant's knowledge at that point is based on mr ceniceros fingering the defendant off the video right well the detective when he appeared on the scene he was able to view the video and then he", "but he doesn't know the defendant correct okay", "and then he also spoke with the two maintenance workers who he relied upon their statements to him that that's the defendant", "that's the extent of we know but the defendant is i'm sorry i'm sorry i misspoke", "the detective is looking at the exact same video right correct", "and the defendant is looking at the video that you can't identify anybody in that video", "so how does he have sufficient knowledge to bust in the door because and if you're concerned about the fact that there's not an id of the defendant from those videos then i would submit that you would look at the two cases that i cited to which is james and bauer in neither of those cases there was an eyewitness identification of a defendant who had been in fact that he committed the arson for probable cause", "they found there was probable cause in that case in the absence of any eye witness testimony saying that's the defendant", "so because it's probable cause it's not proof beyond a reasonable doubt", "it gives the officer enough reason", "is it the state's position then that probable cause existed because someone who didn't see the arson being set went to a detective and said i think oh it was probably that neighbor mr gatch because he was upset about his girlfriend and that's sufficient or was there more when you say probably i mean i don't know he doesn't cite the exact words of what the two maintenance workers told him", "the detective testified those two people identified the defendant from the video", "okay and they were concerned", "cause you have to remember they just saw the defendant coming down twenty minutes later", "okay so there's suspicions were let's just say they were they were suspicious of the defendant at that point", "so it's a totality of the circumstances that the officer has", "and what we have to look to is an objective standard for that for fourth amendment purposes what a reasonable officer would do in that circumstance based upon what someone is telling them", "putting aside what actually occurred all right mmhmm", "which was the exigent circumstances exception", "you think a judge would have signed a search warrant on this do i think the judge absolutely", "a judge would've yes", "yes again it's probable cause it's not proof beyond a reasonable doubt", "it's a lower standard that a police officer has to have in this case", "and as far as the exigent circumstances there's a multitude of factors that are reviewing court will look at to determine whether or not there is exigent circumstances in this case", "do you believe the circuit court correctly ascertained that the community caretaker exception apply i didn't feel like let's just say the community caretaking exception is something that i didn't find that we could meet meet", "cause it doesn't apply if you're investigating a crime which seems to be what they were doing", "yeah it's meet it was hard for us to meet i think that burden", "truly i think what happened in this case is the arson investigator got there after an investigation was done by the by the fire department", "and as far as the amount of time that transpired between the fire and the time that they actually entered the defendant's apartment they entered it at the fire occurred at one hundred and fifty am approximately", "and the detective entered the defendant apartment four hundred and five am", "if there was any inexcusable unjustifiable delay on the part of the police officers they had to wait until the fire department conducted their investigation", "they weren't even contacted until the fire marshall got in there and said that it's an arson and there's been an incendiary source", "so then i don't know what time the fire department did their investigation and contacted the police department based on the record", "but we do know that when the officer the detective arrived at three hundred and thirty five am that he spent that time between i'm sorry three hundred and thirty nine am between three hundred and thirty nine am and four hundred and five am that he spent that time viewing the videos and speaking to the two maintenance workers", "so there's no unjustifiable delay on the part of the detective in this case where he could have secured a search warrant", "some of the other factors that you look at is whether the offense under investigation was recently committed", "we submit that it was recently committed while a grave offense is involved particularly one of violence arson i don't know if it's under the definition of a violent offenses in the statute but i would consider it to be a violent offense with a potential for a huge loss of life in this case", "whether the suspect was reasonably believed to be armed", "i don't think there's any evidence that the defendant was armed in this case", "whether the police officer were acting on the clear showing of probable cause we submit there was a clear showing of probable cause", "whether there was a likelihood that the suspect would have escaped if not swiftly apprehended", "i don't think that we could actually establish that", "but there was a strong reason to believe that the suspect was still in the premises because the two maintenance workers informed the detective that he was still there", "in the time you have left let me ask you to do address go back to justice hoffman's question about the closely balanced evidence", "sure", "and the allegedly improper jury admonitions", "correct yeah obviously we have conceded that the the jury admonition in this case were improper", "they did not meet the requirements that have been set by this court", "so then we have to look at obviously the defendant didn't preserve the issue", "we look it under the lens of forfeiture and the defendant has the burden of showing that the evidence was closely balanced on the first prong", "well so why is the evidence greeny and very very difficult videos and the face cannot be determined from the video", "certainly not the video of the setting of the fire", "correct", "so the only thing you've got is what's his name ceniceros yeah the maintenance worker", "saying that's him", "correct", "that's it no i mean no it's a little lust in that isn't it well no actually what i think is there's a lot", "again this is the process of elimination because we don't have just one video", "we have a series of videos in this case", "right okay", "so the first video shows someone leaving either from apartment 3a or 3b", "yeah", "defendant clearly lives alone in 3b and there's two other people who live in 3a both of those people the evidence established that those people did not commit that crime and the jury obviously accepted that", "i'm not sure that the evidence established that", "if you're suggesting the evidence established that phillip didn't commit the crime because his roommate who said he was sleeping said he never left the apartment", "i don't think the evidence established that philip is out of the woods other than your interpretation that the person in the video is not an africanamerican", "well and your honor obviously understands that what we have to do at this juncture is view the evidence in the light most favorable to the prosecution", "well there's no question about it in the light most favorable to the state seems to me to be that you've got ceniceros saying the person in that video is the defendant", "correct", "but the jury saw the same video", "yes right right", "and it's one of those things again this is a process of elimination okay", "there's no evidence", "there's no evidence that either of the people in 3a committed this arson", "there's none", "but there's no evidence that they didn't", "that phillip there's no evidence that phillip did not commit this arson other than your interpretation that the person in the video is not an africanamerican", "correct it's a reasonable inference from the record", "well i'm not sure that's a reasonable inference but the fact of the matter is that makes all the more difficult in dealing with the fact that this trial judge never told these jurors that this defendant wasn't required to present any evidence", "correct", "so now we've got a jury sitting there that hasn't been told this defendant doesn't have to present any evidence", "and i suppose as to phillip the jurors are inquiring well why isn't there any evidence that somebody else did this crime well and let me just say he didn't admonish them during voir dire about the fact that the defendant doesn't have to present any evidence but there were jury instructions in this case provided to the jury which would have informed the jury that the defendant didn't have to present any evidence but first of all if it is a 431b violation and the evidence is not closely balanced there being no prejudice", "there's a reversal and a remand for a new trial", "that's sebby and people versus thompson", "i mean that's it if it's not a closely balanced case this case goes back for a new trial you know that and i know that", "oh correct i understand that's what the law is but we're submitting that the evidence in this case wasn't closed balance was not closely balanced", "right and the defendant hasn't established his burden of establishing that", "he hasn't established that there was a reasonable alternative theory of this", "oh he doesn't have to establish the alternative theory", "and he has to establish for to establish that there was a closely balanced case", "i mean i'm not saying he has to do the trial", "but at this juncture he has a burden here", "you know we established the defendant's guilt", "he has the burden now", "so at this point he has the burden of establishing something", "the burden's established if from the record even viewing the evidence in a light most favorable to the state a reasonable jury could have come to the conclusion that you failed to meet your burden of proof on the issue of identification", "end of story", "correct but we submit that the evidence was not closely balanced in this case oh i understand what you're saying", "because the defendant's argument relies i think upon speculation", "and that's why in order to find that the evidence was close to balanced i think you have to engage in some type of speculation and that's not viewing the evidence in the light most favorable to the prosecution", "i don't think they've engaged in speculation", "the only thing you have to say is could a reasonable jury based upon this evidence had made a determination that the state failed to meet its burden of proof even if we accept all the evidence in its light most favorable to the state", "i suppose what i'm having difficulty with is you can't see anybody's face on the video it could have come from one of two apartments so they say", "we've got one person who is i think unaccounted for and that's phillip", "and you've got ceniceros saying the person in the video is the defendant", "exactly", "i mean i think that's it that's the whole case", "right exactly", "but again i think it's one of those things where you have to narrow the focus and also you would in that scenario you're not appreciating the fact that the defendant afterwards went changed his clothes went down walked past the firemen as they're trying to still put out the fire and goes down", "he's the one phillip not up phillip's not around", "it's the defendant who is doing all of those actions that establish his consciousness of guilt in this case", "well i don't think we know that the defendant from the evidence of the case the defendant changed his clothes", "yeah", "unless we believe that it was the defendant in the video to begin with", "well and again", "cause all we know is the guy the defendant wearing a light colored jacket and a baseball cap walked downstairs and walked past the firemen", "right and again i request this court to look at the evidence in the light most favorable to the prosecution and not employ a reasonable hypothesis of innocence which the defendant is seeking for this court to do", "well you're not making the argument at any time we look at the evidence in a light most favorable to the prosecution", "it necessarily means the case is not closely balanced", "you're not making that argument", "no i don't think that", "i think that's one of those things where again when you look at the evidence that the jury has already had before it that when you're looking at the whether or not we've proven the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt we look at it in the light most favorable to the prosecution", "that's not the measure for closely balanced", "well and closely balanced are you suggesting that we no longer have to view the evidence in a light most favorable to the prosecution no i'm suggesting that you can win your argument that he was proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt", "and still we could come to the conclusion the case was closely balanced case", "correct", "only if you look at the evidence in a light most favorable to the state", "correct correct", "so one doesn't necessarily preclude the other", "i understand i understand", "but in conclusion we ask that this court find that the evidence in this case established the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt that the trial court's decisions in this case regarding the motion to suppress is proper", "and we ask that this court affirm the defendant's conviction in this case thank you thank you", "briefly your honors thank you", "just hoping your last statements got to what i wanted to say here", "i wanna say a few things about the evidentiary facts but there were multiple review standards here for the insufficient the evidence versus the closely balanced", "so the fact that we're talking so much about whether it was sufficient or not feeds into the idea that it is closely balanced even if you ultimately reject our first issue", "well i wanna ask a question yes", "that justice delort asked you before", "can we consider the note from the jury in our determination as to whether we believe this case was a closely balanced yes your honor it's something that took place", "it's something that the parties were present for that they decided what to stand back or not", "is the evidence produced to the jury of innocence or guilt no not at all but it does give an idea of what they were struggling with", "closely balanced at the end of the day is your determination whether the jurors could have gone one way or the other and it's not competing narratives about the specific error involved for that argument that they were not told", "mr gatch has no responsibility to produce any evidence goes to their mindset on the very error that took place there", "very quickly i agree", "the prosecutor took pains in closing i would argue the person who set the fire was white that's not clear", "whether that's enough to find insufficiency of the evidence it certainly makes it closely balanced when they put a large focus on that", "at trial mr ceniceros the building manager expressly said i do not know who is in though people's exhibit eight and people's exhibit nine which are stills from the first and third video clips of the unknown person entering there", "at the suppression hearing the detective testified i was told by the building workers while we were watching the video clips not the first one not the second one just the videos in general that is mr gatch which is not disputed that he is in the later videos coming down there", "those are the lobby videos you're talking about well mr gatch is seen leaving from behind the camera 3a 3b walking down the corridor and then talking to the building workers in the lobby", "those are the later video clips nine through eleven i believe your honor", "whether that's consciousness of guilt that's our first thing i've heard about that", "also firefighters responded and were making a lot of noise not far from this apartment and that's not an uncommon response to what is going on there too", "so i don't know if that's evidence of one way or the other but ultimately come back under all three of the issues we've raised here there is some weighing of the information to the detective or to the jurors there", "and we would ask you to find that the conviction was insufficient to be sustained but ultimately he does require a new trial for multiple errors that took place", "thank you your honors", "counselors thank you", "matter will be taken under advisement and the court is being adjourned"], "name": ["gov.uscourts.illappct.1-16-2943/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_1-16-2943/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_1-16-2943_DOT_2019-11-26_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "gov.uscourts.illappct.1-16-2943/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_1-16-2943/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_1-16-2943_DOT_2019-11-26_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "gov.uscourts.illappct.1-16-2943/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_1-16-2943/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_1-16-2943_DOT_2019-11-26_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "gov.uscourts.illappct.1-16-2943/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_1-16-2943/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_1-16-2943_DOT_2019-11-26_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "gov.uscourts.illappct.1-16-2943/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_1-16-2943/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_1-16-2943_DOT_2019-11-26_DOT_flac_00004.flac", 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-{"audio_document_id": "gov.uscourts.illappct.5-14-0175.2015-03-03.flac", "identifier": "gov.uscourts.illappct.5-14-0175", "text_document_id": "gov.uscourts.illappct.5-14-0175.2015-03-03.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [8730, 2893, 833, 833, 1783, 1230, 4666, 1500, 35450, 4793, 5000, 17483, 6583, 12173, 5100, 7270, 10153, 13460, 19210, 4473, 10062, 5104, 1646, 31853, 12520, 11853, 6749, 7447, 3433, 4057, 1622, 833, 1630, 8058, 7667, 7088, 9750, 5090, 8220, 12770, 880, 3020, 4830, 2860, 12830, 11323, 24687, 3480, 14860, 8086, 12767, 5740, 5610, 12207, 2313, 20390, 3114, 2447, 5654, 8285, 6650, 7475, 2893, 5964, 1365, 9115, 10310, 2890, 6050, 4530, 5760, 3200, 2540, 6700, 8820, 3010, 14110, 8403, 4740, 1330, 5000, 2740, 5490, 6260, 5650, 1450, 8964, 833, 1213, 9910, 1732, 9710, 4095, 6520, 3026, 3020, 10539, 6615, 5886, 5690, 7030, 1793, 2760, 1630, 2990, 5000, 6360, 11520, 7920, 9230, 8650, 7223, 9720, 5703, 3643, 6607, 2638, 1852, 1970, 3330, 8133, 903, 11611, 18976, 2950, 9821, 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the court", "my name is lee barron", "i'm here with craig jensen at the table with me", "morning", "this case is unique in that we have a dispute over a little more than a quarter million dollars worth of attorney's fees two hundred and fifty eight thousand worth of attorney's fees that were adjudicated by the trial judge and i use the term adjudicated loosely here because there was no sworn testimony no crossexamination no offering of exhibits", "the rules of evidence didn't appear at this adjudication", "the case settled the jesse white case settled in november", "in order to get jesse his money the case had been around since seven we're in uh two thousand and thirteen so in order to get mr white his money mr jensen attempted to work out something when he couldn't do that he filed a petition", "purpose of that hearing in december was to release the funds to jesse white", "the court and the parties all showed up and it's clear from the record the party showed up thinking that this was going to be a preliminary proceeding", "the purpose was to get the money to mr white and then there would be discovery", "and that's in mr schmieder's motions that's in mr jensen or meyerjensen in their motions", "that's how the court offers you know asks the parties well let's do some opening statements and there was never anything more than opening statements", "mr jensen made some comments and mr schmieder made some comments and what's remarkable in the record as it goes back and forth and unfortunately it was heated", "and there were some accusations by mr schmieder that uh mr jensen wasn't being truthful there was counter suggestions that mr schmieder wasn't being truthful well we have a tool for how to deal with issues when people you know say we're not being truthful", "we have crossexamination we have sworn testimony we have the rules of evidence", "but what were there specific objections to proceeding in the way that the court did i mean did anybody say wait a minute judge i want to put on evidence for example", "yeah mr jensen made that very specifically he did he made reference to wanting to put on evidence he did", "sin we have the record", "and then all of a sudden at page twenty seven of the transcript in the record page one hundred and seventy one the court asks the one third attorney fees is two hundred and fifty eight thousand mr jensen says of the gross amount yes your honor and then the court turns to mr schmieder and says is that is that is that what it is and mr schmieder says yes and mr jensen then says may i and the court cuts him off hold on a moment we keep doing this", "you're saying they deserve fifty one thousand six hundred mr schmieder mr schmieder says what i'm saying is i think we at least yes i'm saying that", "and i can deal with that and then the court goes i'm going to rule right now from the bench that the plaintiff gets fifty one thousand six hundred which happens to be twenty of the fee", "is that right that was the amount that they suggested but it comes out of it twenty fifteen twenty five fifty", "i mean what's the basis i'm not saying that's good or bad or anything i'm just saying mathematically yeah", "fifty one thousand six hundred is twenty of two hundred and fifty eight thousand", "do you agree with that i'm not going to dispute i'll verify that for you", "and i'm not going to argue with you", "all right", "mr barron let me ask you this", "i'm just curio i think you're right the judge did i saw that they cut your client off he cut your client off", "and yet there's some hint in the record about your client having a contract for eleven on this case", "this hat and that exactly a hint and that would be the record was developed", "you would be able to see that there was a agreement while he was in an of council arrangement to have a eleven", "and that's craig jensen of counsel to the schmieder lakin law firm", "but then in march of two thousand and thirteen that relationship terminates", "and then mr white is quite appropriately given his option and the record it we do have this here the letter in here that craig sent to mr white and he gave me him three options", "right", "following the ardc guidelines perfectly", "they claimed if they pushed mr white there's no evidence of that at all they said that you can stay with them", "and the letter is actually quite professional", "the original contract though in the briefs that were filed it's not clear to me whether mr white signed the contract with the lakin firm or whether it was with mr jensen", "i think mr jensen seems to say it was with me but i was with the lakin firm and mr lakin's brief says it's the lakin firm he was our employee", "the first contract so did i get that right yes the the first contract that was actually signed in two thousand and eleven two seventeen two thousand and eleven that's the first time they have a contract and that is with jesse white with the schmieder lakin firm whatever type name they go under at that time that that was that's right and he was their employee", "he's not seeking fees for that period of time", "well is he seeking fees for the period of time he was of counsel no he's seeking fees and he's entitled to fees there's only one party here that had a contract with mr white when the case settled", "that's the meyerjensen law firm it's not even craig jensen it's the meyerjensen law firm so that prior contract doesn't apply", "because that's the out counsel agreement between craig jensen and the schmieder lakin firm but all that disappears once mr white exercises his right as he is entitled to to pick his attorney", "and then he signs a contract with a different entity the entity meyerjensen law firm", "that's the agreement and that's the only contingency agreement that's in effect when the case settles", "the case settled though just months after the contract was signed with mr jensen right march to november", "right it was it right it was yes it was settled", "he he signed the contract in march and in november 8th is when the settlement contract and that is exactly the type of issue and i think if i can anticipate i have and if i'm wrong tell me i'm wrong if i could anticipate where the question's going the question is what happened during that period of march and november", "right that is my question", "and that is exactly the appropriate question", "is thank you i wish we had been able to develop it", "just kidding so is mr jensen then seeking his quantum meruit for what work he did for those months no he has a contract", "he is entitled to the contingency a group agreement that he has with the client", "the party that is entitled under illinois law to quantum meruit would be the schmieder lakin law firm they're entitled to quantum merit", "he's entitled to the contract that he has with mr white", "i mean part of your argument here is as i understand it that the trial court got this backwards", "yes", "that the trial court should have honored the pending contingent fee contract with meyerjensen and then determined quantum meruit to for the lakin firm", "maybe he would have ended up with the same numbers but it it should have been done that way is what you're and evidence should have been presented and it's their burden of proof on that issue", "there all the case law says it's their burden of proof", "and there's some interesting reference to that baker case the fifth district baker case on attorney's fees", "and it's just entertaining for me to read that and see who was called as witnesses", "i mean william beatty is called as a witness in that case bruce cook is called an expert witness in that case", "i think i referred to it as a who's who of the plains bar", "and that's how you prove up cases", "you don't have fifteen minutes of argument and then the court just sort of pulls the plug and says here's what i'm going to do", "and then for mr schmieder to represent to the court later on the motion to reconsider and represent to this court that evidence was presented", "that's that's not evidence", "we have rules of evidence witnesses are called they're sworn and i can't pull the quote out of it directly but cross examination is the greatest truth telling truth finding tool that we have", "and if they're disagreeing and unfortunately there's clearly some rancor you can't read that transcript without knowing that unfortunately there's some rancor", "both parties are representing themselves which violates another rule that we're all familiar with", "and that doesn't help", "and therefore the way we resolve that is we have a trial", "we do discovery both parties asked for discovery", "they asked for discovery craig asked for discovery we'd get ready for trial", "and we do cross examination we find out where the truth lies we found out we find out how much time they put in", "they meet their burden of proof to show how much time they put into this case cause that's the quantum meruit", "none of that's in the record", "and they also get the benefit of whatever time mr jensen put into it when he was working there right and i i agree with that and even during the period of time that he was of council", "mmhm", "they could bill for that", "now their objection to that is we you know he's going to be disingenuous he's going to minimize his time i can anticipate that argument that argument was made in the record that's fine", "they've got records", "and they you know they well typically in a contingency fee contract especially a jones act or an fela it's fine records are not kept", "i i cause it puts a plaintiff's firm at a disadvantage you agree", "i i mean being an employment lawyer you're very used to keeping records to the tenth of a minute i'll bet", "you're sitting there reading my mind you're scaring me", "it would be a good practice for all plaintiffs firms to do that", "of course it would but but they don't but the reality is plaintiffs firms who do jones act and fela or whatever don't really do or anticipate a lone star argument", "right and that's absolutely true and so then they can come in and they can go through their pleadings they s file the motion for summary judgment", "here it is here we estimate it took this much time we sent this discoveries we estimate it took this much time", "we filed an amended complaint we estimated that this much time that can be done", "there has to be just like the baker case they came in and they developed a record and there that's their burden", "they have to develop that record", "tell us something about their jurisdictional argument", "yes okay", "craig filed the notice of appeal", "it complies in every aspect with rule three hundred and three", "well it names white as the appellant though right right and and rule three hundred and three says you have to do that", "rule three hundred and three says that you that the notice of appeal must list the parties in the same way that they are listed in the trial court", "and two things one we think jesse white does have an interest and is an appropriate party to the appeal", "he has s interest under the illinois rules to choose his own attorney and he has an interest to see that the attorney that he selected is paid", "secondly there in the case law they cite that nussbaum case the nussbaum case goes exactly the opposite way", "and as long as the notice of appeal complies with rule three hundred and three jurisdiction is vested in this court", "and this type of hypertechnical argument has been rejected on multiple occasions as we cite in our brief", "and what's interesting to me is in no place do they claim any remote prejudice", "they have no doubt what the issues were", "cause there's what the notes appeal says is what we're appealing from are the two orders the december order and the march order", "they're on notice what the issues are they're here", "they filed their brief", "it's not as if we showed up here with a default", "well we didn't know because we didn't show up because we didn't know what we were arguing about", "they knew right from the get go they've known throughout this exactly what the issues are cause craig complied with exactly what three hundred and three requires him to comply with", "i think this i'm sorry", "i'm sorry it seems that the case law though that is even cited the touhy case for example lists the parties even though it's an attorney fee fight", "the actual name of the ca i'm sorry it wasn't the touhy case it was delapaz versus select build construction and that was an attorney fee fight and yet the names of the parties in the lawsuit were the ones named in the litigation", "i think in that case there was a count", "i might be wrong on this but i my recollection of reading that case is that there was a complaint for tortious interference with contract that was part of that", "okay", "and the other case like as you said was the other case just referred to the parties just as they were at the trial court", "does the lien statute doesn't the lien statute itself indicate that you have to serve it in the name of the client the attorney lien statute", "i believe it does", "i believe that's correct", "and one on the lien issue and i want to be clear on this", "it's simply their burden of proof to because of the statutory cause of action the lien a the lien statute they have to prove that they've complied", "what we have in the record is an affidavit from somebody at the insurance company or appeal that says what went through the record and the only lien that i find is march of or march of two thousand and thirteen after lakin chapman was filed", "now i'm not sure i wasn't in this case until the appeal what the record will be once it's fully developed", "but those are the type of evidentiary issues that must be developed", "and if they can meet that burden power to them then we'll move on to the other issues", "but that's the reason we have a trial that's the reason we use the rules of evidence to resolve this", "and i think if they had if schmieder lakin had gone to the judge we wouldn't have to be here", "if craig files a motion to reconsider he says judge i don't know what happened", "you were having a bad day whatever you know you you brought the hammer down too soon we need discovery they say we need discovery we need to put on evidence and if schmieder lakin had come forward and said you know what judge i think craig's right we have to put on evidence instead they filed a motion that suggests to the judge you heard evidence they had an opportunity to present all the evidence they wanted to present and they push the judge to continue the error that he made", "at that point we're here now and they're still telling you that there was evidence", "and that's just implausible", "at that point we think the proper result is that they've given up their opportunity", "they shouldn't be remanded for retrial that the full fee the full contract should be awarded to craig", "because they've put us on the trip here to mount vernon i love coming to mount vernon but you know maybe not in this type of weather but yes they i have to be here you have to be here i checked the website last night to see whether or not it should we weren't all gonna be here but it so i don't blame how can that be fair that mr jensen received the entirety i and that's why i think that's probably right", "i agree i think there typically should be a quantum meruit on this they should have to meet their burden of quantum meruit", "i agree with that and that's why so if the judge makes an error they should wave their quantum meruit", "if the judge makes an error that they continue the judge makes a mistake", "and instead of as an officer of the court coming to the judge to say judge you know what i think we really need to do discovery and we need to hear evidence on this instead they go yeah atta boy let's we pulled this one off let's hold on to it and let's do everything we can to hold on to something that we don't deserve that's at least th that's at least that i think that then they gotta live with that", "punish that", "a lot of the mistakes judges make are at the behest of some attorney", "you know if someone was making an argument i'm not gonna you're asking me to go to a place i don't want to go to", "somebody's making an argument and", "right ah", "but alternatively if you're not persuaded by that then alternatively it needs to be remanded and there needs to be a full trial", "thank you", "all right thank you mr barron", "mr schmieder", "may it please the court i'm rob schmieder from sl chapman", "and i'd like to respond to a couple of things that mr barron has said first of all there is evidence in the record", "there mr jensen filed seven exhibits and submitted his distribution statement to the court at the hearing", "is there any point at which anybody stipulated that into evidence or it was offered and admitted or you know", "well i did not object to any of the exhibits that he submitted to the court", "with our exhibits we submitted six exhibits that were attached to the and had sworn testimony of brad lakin", "an affidavit which authenticated those exhibits and they were provided to the court", "when we approached the court on that date the court heard arguments", "we were not on the record", "the court heard arguments there was some scuttle back and forth", "there was arguments between brad and craig", "and then he said after a while we handed him a copy of the our exhibits the affidavit some case law that we were referring to the wegner and delapaz cases and the rhodes opinion", "we then at that point in time he said i've got too long of a line here", "you guys go work this out and if you can't work it out come back we went tried to work it out came back", "so he'd already heard he'd already been provided with exhibits with the affidavit he'd asked questions and we'd argue some of the law we then came back", "so this was a regular motion he called this wasn't a special setting", "correct", "this was a regular motion call", "it is as a matter of fact i believe it may have been the day or two after christmas", "and for some reason the courthouse was packed", "after after the courthouse clears and the judge had the judge had had this he also had the court file and the docket sheet", "we then he then proceeds and craig says i want a court reporter he says that's fine get a court reporter and then we proceed", "and and you'll see on there's examples throughout the the argument where craig is actually testifying", "pages five through seven of the transcript craig is actually talking about the work that he did at meyerjensen after the fact", "but not under oath he's not been he's not under oath but he's an officer of the court", "and i was an objectee i mean he's going to say what he's going to say", "and we're going to we presented our arguments", "we had i mean just as an example we had this is a print out exhibit f of our court our computer records of this file", "and the court this was attached to mr lakin's affidavit and the court was reviewing this we were talking about a lot of things", "and at some point in time the court and that's why this is the second time around that the courts have heard a lot of this", "and i think that was sort of the what mr barron is talking about the court appears to be impatient when he's heard it all already", "there's nothing new coming out of anybody's mouth and as much as i like to talk he shut me down as well", "and because none of us were raising anything new no one ever said judge i have one more piece of evidence or i need to either state this for the record or take the stand or put somebody on the witness stand he had all the evidence and there were certain times and mr barron characterizes me as accusing mr jensen of things", "all i was doing was pointing out that credibility maps", "because mr jensen had walked in the court that morning and said we had no need period we get nothing nada i and this was off the record the first time around he made the same argument a little in when we were on the record", "i then handed the court the lien letters showing that we had submitted valid lien letters during the representation and they were actually signed by mr jensen back in two thousand and eleven", "and this case didn't start in two thousand and eleven that was another that was another statement that mr jensen kept arguing", "the case actually st our involvement actually started back in two thousand and nine because the case was originally filed by lance mallon who then worked on a relationship with us charlie assigned the case to craig and we went from there", "and the court shows that he had reviewed the court file because at one point in time during the hearing i said judge if you look at the docket sheet and he cut me off he goes i did look and my point was that craig said he didn't touch this case until two thousand and eleven", "he had already entered his appearance back in two thousand and ten", "so the court was taking into account everything that mr jensen had said whether he was under oath or not", "i didn't object he's an officer of the court", "the court had mr lakin's affidavit and all the exhibits attached to it right there on his bench", "as a matter of fact you'll see in the record there's an actual extra copy in the record of mr lakin's affidavit with all the exhibits", "that's because that was the court's courtesy copy", "then he must've handed it to the clerk and he filed it a second time", "and so he did hear evidence", "he did hear arguments", "now as far as my request for discovery i want to be very clear i didn't know going into this i thought the proper thing for the court to do the court had a couple options here", "the court could say sl chapman you're gonna you're gonna prove quantum meruit", "or the case settled i'm going to follow the line of cases that file the statement in rows like delapaz and and the web interface that says if the prior firm does much of the work and the case settled shortly thereafter you will award the whole fee to the prodecessor attorneys", "and then the subsequent attorneys get quantum meruit", "and i was arguing that's what should apply here and it avoids the whole hassle of us having to show a quantum meruit of us conducting discovery going down that line", "we can disperse the funds because if we couldn't this case has been dragging on for we'd been involved for forty six months approximately", "and depending upon how many hours and there was quite a bit of work done the court may not have been able to disperse any funds to the plaintiff if he was going to award us based on quantum meruit because we until we figure out what that lien amount is we're not captive to the contingency", "but if he follows the wegner delapaz line of cases we're captive to the contingency", "and then out of that comes whatever meyerjensen proves on a quantum meruit basis", "he elected to go with that approach", "yes i encouraged him to go to that approach i think it was appropriate", "i don't think it's an abuse of discretion", "the case and the case didn't settle in november case settled in september", "and it settled in september after after it had been set for mediation in march", "while we were representing mr white the mediation was canceled", "mr jensen acted as of counsel to us agreed to continue the trial date until the fall", "then he sent out a selection letter", "now complicating this whole matter and i hate this because i don't like argues between attorneys but we had an arbitration with mr jensen because he breached his of counsel agreement with us", "he went he was paid a set amount of money to finish a bunch of cases including this one", "the arbitrator found he breached his agreement to with us", "that arbitration award came down in october", "we didn't find out about this settlement until a little later", "and so we had that going on", "was that introduced before judgment it was it was it wasn't in argue but was the i haven't seen the arbitration award", "no we we had it with us", "we i don't i don't know if we didn't we certainly didn't put it as exhibit", "we did reference in our in our pleadings that the court had access to the other file because they had appealed the arbitrators award accusing the arbitrator of not paying attention during the arbitration not filing the evidence and doing a bunch of other things", "that was before judge pryor", "and i in the cause number is referenced in it was cause number 13l1800", "and so we specifically pointed out to judge matoesian if you know you need more information about that however i was concerned about we have an arbitration award i'm not asking this judge to do anything with that arbitration award", "i didn't want him exercising jurisdiction over it", "that was probably before judge pryor at that time", "but the fact is there was a finding that he breached his agreement", "and my whole point in bringing it up to judge matoesian was i was telling him that the firm's expectation under that agreement with mr jensen was that we would receive eighty nine of the fee", "so after considering that considering the statements of mr jensen and what transcripts of course never show is judge matoesian told us all to be quiet and he sat there and was presumably calculating whatever percentage or i you know looking over his notes and he was doing these calculations", "and that's when he awarded he made his findings at that point in time", "he decided to file the wegner and delapaz cases which i think is perfectly within his discretion to do", "i don't think he could he didn't abuse his discretion", "and at that point in time the only question before him was how much should meyerjensen receive", "and it was their burden not mine at that moment the burden shifts to them to prove their case", "now quite honestly what happens at that point in time i'm the aggrieved party", "i'm awarded less than what i think i'm entitled to", "i did not appeal it partly because i can go right back into arbitration", "i've already got a judgment it's res judicata against craig that he breached the agreement and i can collect the difference from him if i really wanted to do that", "but i did an appeal so because you can live with that", "well well i think quoting the record", "well yeah i think i was in this case", "in this case", "yeah well i think i think that was then quite i think i said i guess i can live with that and i was trying to just he clearly didn't want to hear it", "he wanted to rule and he didn't want to hear any more arguments cause he had heard em over and over again at that point in time so", "i think that was obvious in the record", "that was obvious right", "and at one point in time where craig pounded his fist on the thing on the on the table and the judge the judge chastised him", "and it was for some reason things were very heated at that point in time", "but that doesn't take away from the fact to say that there was no evidence", "there's there's thirteen fourteen exhibits", "there was a sworn testimony of mr lakin there was the statements on the record by mr jensen there was an aff this affidavit of christopher parr that he was referring to that they don't that the defendant didn't wasn't aware of a lien that's nonsense what that affidavit says is i am christopher parr", "i am the new attorney that just was hired and the only the only letter i received was this this one for mr lakin after they were fired which paul had said was hey remember we have a lien cause it was a new attorney", "we didn't want it getting lost in translation that we we had a proper lien", "so we met our burden", "we walked into court we provided the lien letters those lien letters were provided during the representation", "they were actually signed on behalf of the firm by mr jensen they stated our interest", "we met every single element of asserting a proper lien", "and then the court decided to follow the rhodes statement", "it was a couple of short months the only thing in the court file and that this was the other thing was the only thing that was after we withdrew the only other thing that happened that was in the court file before the case settled in september was the filing of an evidence deposition", "and we pointed that out to the court", "now the court obviously took into consideration some of the things that mr jensen said about his time and efforts in the case and came up with a decision", "and so i think i think you know the the question for this court is did the trial court abuse his discretion having heard it twice once off the record", "and then on the record i don't think the court can reach that conclusion that no reasonable person would take the view adopted by the trial court in this in this situation", "which is what the standard is", "now on as far as the the motion to dismiss for lack of standing", "but obviously the only party the only party appellant is jesse white", "so jesse white his contract was enforced", "he paid a third of the fee he wasn't aggrieved in any way", "those funds were dispersed last year immediately after it after the court issued its ruling", "he hasn't been aggrieved in any way", "and there's nothing no no injury to any recognizable les legal interest and so he doesn't have standing to a surplus now the question can you point me to a case that exactly says that that the that says just what you said that the there's no standing of the plaintiff employee yeah the plaintiff in this case", "i cannot i cannot i mean it just because all of the cases seem to be brought when there's a dispute even rhodes", "when there's a dispute it seems like the plaintiff or the party's litigation are really just nominal parties and perhaps they do have an interest making sure that their lawyers are paid", "well i albeit nominal but perhaps mr barron's on to something here", "yeah no no i don't think so because they i don't think they have the right", "i mean we have we have the lien statute which dictates that the trial court will adjudicate that lien", "but that lien arises out of your employment", "correct or past employment right", "some employment you have to have an employment in order to have a lien correct", "right", "so it seems to me that the clients whether they're plaintiff or defendant are really the nominal parties", "and i think the lien statute does say that notice has to be given client as well", "if you look at it", "it states that it shall be upon the party against whom their clients may have suits claims or causes of action", "so it's not it's not notice to the client", "the client obviously receives a copy of the written contract but all it says it and then it says on petition filed by any attorney or their clients any court that's the part i'm looking for", "right okay", "on the petition filed by the attorney or their client", "right", "so it seems to be in the alternative", "in other words it's like suing a corporation", "the corporation has to be named but it's a nominal party", "i understand what you're saying", "i couldn't find a case that exactly says what you say", "well except that the lawyer has to bring in how would that happen would it be brought i mean once the case is dismissed with prejudice because it's been settled how would would you open a new mr case how would you envision that happening if not part of the original case i'm not saying it can't be part of the original case", "what i'm saying is but you're not a party in the original case", "no but we've had but once the lien is adjudicated and if meyerjensen is upset with the result meyerjensen as a party affected by that order has an appellate right", "their name doesn't matter their name doesn't appear in the caption i agree with you", "i mean most of the what he's talking about is it's not in the caption but had they filed you know meyerjensen hereby appeals from this that they would have been identified as a party", "so your biggest complaint is that their name is not in the right line on the notice of appeal", "their name's not anywhere on the notice of appeal other than in the signature block", "as the attorney", "as an attorney for the plaintiff", "and then when you get to the court's document statement it says identify all of the appellants identify everyone that supposedly has an interest in this appeal and the only person they identify is jesse white", "so what would you have us do then are you saying that we have no jurisdiction what i'm saying you have no jurisdiction over meyerjensen or any of their claims or how this impacts them", "that's what the nussbaum case talks about", "in nussbaum the plaintiff actually omitted actually said defendants but then said hyphen appellee and only namely one of the defendants", "and they said we don't have jurisdiction over the other defendants", "and so while this court may have jurisdiction over jesse white the next question as to jesse white then is well does he have standing well i see i don't understand why he wouldn't have standing", "i mean this was his injury claim to begin with", "he's gone through various attorneys here", "you know why couldn't he appeal to this court and say i don't like the way the judge divided the attorney's fees", "i think jensen should've got more", "why couldn't he do that because the question about standing is whether jesse white would benefit from any relief brand he would", "he would be more satisfied maybe", "if the division was different", "and so why i mean i think that's a that well i mean if that's the standard for standing this court's gonna be troubled by that that new definition of standing", "because if it's just about satisfaction everybody will always have standing but", "well this is this was his money that's getting divided up he his claim is paid but then he has obligations with attorneys for a third or whatever that comes out of his money", "right", "you know and and why why couldn't he say i i think jensen didn't get enough here", "or why can't he say that he wasn't satisfied with your representation and you've got too much well first of all he never raised any of those issues below", "but from a standing point of view why couldn't he ask any well if he had raised specific issues below that he was advancing to this court that may be a different issue", "but what he this wasn't the moment the court enforced the onethird agreement he paid exactly in attorney's fees what he had agreed to no more no less", "but his contract for a third was with mr jensen", "so the courts enforcement of a third was before you all joint him right correct", "that's not what he anticipated when he signed his contract with mr jensen", "he anticipated paying mr jensen a third", "not paying you all anything", "now he may have not known the law obviously but that was his anticipation", "so why can't he feel injured or be injured well i don't i don't", "i mean the court has not interpreted the contract the way he has interpreted", "well he's had three contracts", "with mr mallon with us and with meyerjensen", "i'm not leaving i'm just standing", "okay", "and so those three contracts you could say that for each one of them", "what he was he was agreeing to give a third a third and a third", "well then he'd be that's a hundred percent if you if you go with that logic", "no we're just talking about standing", "which is what i'm doing", "which is what you're doing", "thank you mr schmieder", "thank you", "and i did not announce this morning but i had back surgery", "and so every once in a while i stand so i'm not leaving so please don't don't even think about it i'm listening mr barron", "yes that's fine", "i've got in my office one of those electronic desks this go get goes up maybe you could figure out how to install it here", "yeah right", "or when maybe a chair that moves you up", "don't take that from his spot", "i'm sorry go ahead", "the petition the initial petition about attorney's fees was filed by craig jensen on november i believe it was november 26th", "and mr schmieder does acknowledge that on december 27th at the regular docket call he hands to the judge and he hands to mr schmieder i mean to mr jensen this entire thing", "and this is the evidence that he's talking about", "and he's saying that in the at hearing that this entire document runs in the record from forty one to one hundred and forty four that that somehow judge matoesian absorbed all of this and treated it as evidence", "but your claim had also submitted exhibits", "he did on november twenty six he submitted something but those when somebody files an affidavit brad lakin files an affidavit and in some cases you know both the parties agreed because we're not going to fight about this your affidavit's your affidavit that's okay", "then i think justice as you suggested it gets stipulated into the record", "and the judge says are you objecting in any way to their affidavit they go no your honor we accept their affidavit then at that point it's a stipulation", "and that's one of the ways that evidence is created", "but simply filing if we got to a world where whatever somebody attaches to their pleading is evidence and is admissible evidence the rules of evidence disappear", "so mr jensen had no objection", "or he did object", "he wanted he expected to have a hearing and he expected to but did he object to mr schmieder's exhibits he was handed these he didn't even did he object he asked to hear evidence", "no he did not ever say i object to what's attached", "he expected until the moment the judge ruled craig anticipated that we were still in opening statements", "he expected that he was that there was going to be a subsequent hearing there was going to be discovery and he would have an opportunity", "and hopefully at that point he would hire the how would he expect that if it's a motion here he's got his exhibits and he's got his exhibits and nobody's saying let's continue the case the purpose of that motion was to get the money to jesse white", "the motion that purpose of that motion was not to resolve finally in fact he's how do we know that from the record because in craig jensen's motion he asked to put the attorney's fees in escrow", "that is exactly the relief he was expecting", "okay but mr schmieder's motion i think went beyond that", "craig saw that motion as it was handed to him at the bar he didn't have opportunity to read this or go through this or challenge any of this", "to your question did he object to it he didn't even see it he got sandbagged at the hearing when he gets handed this thing and says here's our here's all of our how can he even make an objection at the hearing and how could the judge base his ruling on this that was handed to him on the morning of the hearing but then there was a break right no there was break while other while the judge was dealing with other things on his docket", "other motions", "there was but and i assume everybody not everybody but the two parties spoke", "they had a brief they tried to resolve the dispute", "and they were unable to do that", "but the judge is up there dealing with other matters", "you heard mr schmieder say to you that the judge paused and said wait let me read this", "you won't find that in the record", "in fact much of what mr schmieder's told you is just not in the record", "he was testifying representing to you certain facts", "that's why we have the rules of evidence", "and they're just this thing completely deviated from the rules of evidence", "and at the very least has to be remanded for the issue to take evidence the way evidence is supposed to be taken", "so we're you want us to tell judge matoesian that he had evidence before everybody didn't really do it right", "i well there's a couple of things", "i don't know that he had evidence before him", "i think evidence is when affidavits and exhibits are stipulated", "but when put simply just having pleadings in front of him and then he ruled", "and we don't know there's no findings of facts", "there's no conclusions of law", "i was sitting here when you were talking with ms buckley about the you know that makes your job easier when the trial judge does findings of facts and conclusions of law even if they dictate them", "or something", "but there's nothing in this record that tells you what judge matoesian was thinking", "except that reading inferring he got frustrated with everybody and he said this is over and this is what we're doing okay", "and this is over", "thank you mr barron", "thank you", "have a good trip back", "all right we're going to take a brief recess"], "name": ["gov.uscourts.illappct.5-14-0175/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_5-14-0175/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_5-14-0175_DOT_2015-03-03_DOT_flac_00000.flac", 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-{"audio_document_id": "gov.uscourts.illappct.5-15-0490.2016-06-22.flac", "identifier": "gov.uscourts.illappct.5-15-0490", "text_document_id": "gov.uscourts.illappct.5-15-0490.2016-06-22.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [2399, 4933, 1540, 1533, 1630, 20830, 5150, 2020, 3030, 3073, 7220, 4770, 6860, 7993, 19898, 2920, 4883, 9328, 13740, 4630, 6310, 5220, 2430, 7100, 6020, 13890, 1960, 6830, 4100, 3400, 9000, 13380, 8950, 4480, 2000, 1870, 7500, 8547, 5213, 8910, 22710, 5727, 6544, 2481, 18301, 3451, 27623, 1800, 1280, 1925, 1135, 9745, 1065, 2340, 13040, 5117, 4647, 1860, 4410, 2365, 3185, 15880, 1670, 4113, 7090, 26660, 12060, 5440, 4420, 7500, 9280, 2680, 17770, 13954, 10826, 12450, 8750, 3610, 2950, 4170, 2580, 11800, 6290, 2360, 9530, 2850, 6940, 5236, 5314, 7060, 16465, 3635, 3753, 3480, 9900, 10379, 11975, 9146, 9170, 3311, 10529, 3210, 6550, 4623, 7552, 8285, 4850, 12720, 2740, 4380, 3380, 11643, 4867, 3883, 13170, 8070, 1900, 17820, 12090, 2490, 8530, 3853, 6260, 3960, 6060, 3656, 9024, 5153, 4484, 4544, 1906, 3151, 6122, 15106, 25324, 1850, 1670, 2950, 5503, 9080, 6135, 4365, 7191, 2229, 4230, 6760, 2415, 7455, 6920, 1163, 9690, 1823, 16983, 3239, 2001, 13233, 6153, 9938, 7083, 2006, 2080, 7930, 16920, 2390, 1230, 11150, 22695, 958, 3797, 2953, 833, 9247, 8103, 12319, 19560, 5813, 940, 1222, 833, 12548, 4775, 2162, 2211, 8788, 1922, 7980, 8700, 5837, 2843, 9100, 7829, 8751, 6200, 2853, 12993, 7004, 833, 1000, 6980, 4900, 11892, 5718, 10370, 10050, 4630, 6880, 7723, 4892, 5160, 8113, 5060, 5978, 865, 6540, 15203, 4794, 11615, 1310, 3516, 11504, 14497, 12194, 9370, 5910, 4700, 1060, 12530, 5706, 5488, 7429, 6880, 3080, 6690, 10840, 2490, 5840, 3304, 6500, 3600, 10553, 1720, 7480, 5536, 8773, 9037, 9410, 13586, 1516, 3091, 2460, 3531, 3998, 1660, 12130, 10770, 833, 10696, 7400, 19710, 5353, 11410, 6042, 5330, 1843, 16850, 10073, 2780, 4770, 9850, 6670, 9290, 2540, 8870, 13680, 6435, 12643, 4247, 2500, 20713, 21345, 6550, 10013, 9960, 13560, 4320, 3150, 6600, 1650, 9500, 29681, 2209, 10660, 3313, 3633, 4787, 2360, 9840, 5390, 13780, 4790, 13453, 23991, 4190, 1834, 6566, 6513, 2803, 1202, 6400, 5720, 978, 2335, 16200, 1520, 883, 3413, 1040, 833, 14250, 5710, 3373, 1191, 3066, 1350], "label": ["all right let's pick up our first case", "on the ten o'clock carl snider vs rrooksby", "argument for the panel please proceed", "thank you your honor", "may it please the court", "i'm frosty drake and i represent the appellant robert rooksby the appellee gregory snider sues brooksby for among other things a breach fiduciary seeking money damages snider also filed for an injunction seeking an order that brooksby to be enjoined from using half the proceeds that he obtained from the alleged breach of fiduciary duty", "and then he deposit half of the proceeds from the alleged breach of fiduciary duty with the court", "the court granted that injunction", "this is an appeal of the granting of that injunction", "and as i will explain in the grant of that injunction was erroneous", "that brings me to the facts the background of the case given the issues on appeal it's not necessary to state the facts in great detail", "brooksby and snider were business partners in an llc called carbon recovery", "carbon recovery's business model was to obtain a band and coal from coal storage companies process it and blend the coals", "so in that specific sales criteria and then sell it their buyer was a company called the southern illinois power cooperative", "a dispute arose between rooksby and snider as the operation of carbon recovery and snider wrote rrooksby an email on may 21st two thousand and fifteen telling him carbon recovery would not be making any payments to anyone except to snider meaning that there would be no further payments to suppliers or compensation for rooksby", "so rooksby thus began dealing with coal on his own account", "specifically contracting with peabody coal a company carbon recovery had not dealt with", "snider became aware of these dealings and sued him for breach of fiduciary duty essentially alleging that rooksby wasn't surfing corporate opportunities of carbon recovery", "as part of the lawsuit snider also sought an injunction ordering that rooksby be enjoined from using fifty of the net sales proceeds of his sale of coal from may 21st two thousand and fifteen forward which was the date that snider wrote the email", "and that he deposited fifty of the same into the court", "the court granted the injunction which brings me to the point that the injunction was wrong which brings me to the points on appeal", "the first point is that the injunction is erroneous because snider has an adequate remedy at law", "and thus there is no irreparable harm", "of course it's warned of law that an injunction can not issue if the move on has an adequate remedy at law", "here snider has an adequate remedy at law his money damages claim for breach of fiduciary duty", "indeed in his briefing below snider even stated that he should quote not have to wait for a monetary award but that's just the point because a monetary award is available there is an adequate remedy at law", "there is no irreparable harm", "the mere passage of time from the point of the suit to any monetary award is not irreparable harm", "and that makes this injunction essentially an equitable attachment", "and illinois law forbids that equitable attachments", "an equitable attachment is the enjoining of the defendant's control or property in his possession to satisfy a claim not yet reduced to judgment", "is there any kind of allegation that this breach of fiduciary duty would somehow permanently damage the relationship with their buyer southern illinois power cooperative i don't believe so", "i don't believe there was such an allegation if that allegation was made that certainly wasn't a focal point of the injunction hearing or in the briefing", "and in other words any kind of allegation over and above you owe me money", "well there were things like i'd like an accounting", "i'd like an accounting things like that", "but as to an allegation about a specific permanent harm to a customer i don't think there was", "even more even if that were the allegation the injunction forcing him to pay money into court would have no no barring to that allegation", "and that might support an injunction saying you can't go out and sell more coal", "you can't go contact these people but such an allegation would not create the need or irreparable harm for injunction to pay money into court", "what did the injunction bar him from doing the injunction barring the points of the appeal were anyway but paragraphs b and c of the injunction preventing them from using the net sales the net proceeds of his sale from may 21st two thousand and fifteen forward and to deposit into the court those net sales proceeds", "and the court eventually said you said to deposit the need for the deposit in your attorney's prosecutor account", "he was also enjoined from making any further sales to southern illinois power cooperative except through carbon recovery", "and we do not we did not appeal that that point", "i understand but the point i'm trying to make here is it seems to me like the claim was more than just he owes me money it's he's damaging our joint businesses relationship or substituting himself for our joint business relationship with southern illinois cooperative", "okay i'm sorry if i misstated that was the only claim at issue i apologize", "my point was this this goes to your your argument that he has an adequate remedy at law money damages and i'm saying but what about the potential damage to this relationship with the southern illinois power cooperative we don't appeal that we're not asking that he not be enjoined from having contact with southern illinois power cooperation we're only appealing the the injunction paragraphs b and c", "to the extent that they", "deposit money yeah deposit money", "and you can't use the net sales proceeds yes", "okay", "and also there was no allegation that your client was in solvent or if this money got away this is going to be gone", "there's no evidence of insolvency", "there's no binding a bankruptcy", "the closest that it comes to that there's an allegation that we're dissipating a corporate asset which is just a fancy way of saying you're causing me money damage which is you know one of the main points of my appeal", "and refresh my record how much are we talking about here the amount that was deposited is ten thousand", "so returning to the case law here", "it does function as a equitable attachment", "it may not be a right amount of money but they're they're instructing rooksby you can't use that money", "the court is describing you can't use that money", "you can't use that money you got to deposit it with the court and that's an equitable attachment", "and as the court stated in kurt kurty franz and the other cases in my brief the theory of taking away the control of property by means of an injunction for the purpose of anticipating a judgment which may or may not thereafter be obtained by a litigant is a point of horan to the principles of equitable justice", "and that's exactly what happened in this case", "rooksby had property in his control and it was taken away prior to judgment", "of course there are many cases that denying injunctions when the plaintiff has a claim for money damages and thus are essentially equitable attachments", "one particular one that i think deserves discussion here is the franz case due to a similarity to this case the franz case involved the fact pattern very similar to this one in franz a limited partner brought an action against a general partner and the chief operating officer of a partnership alleging breach of contract and breach of fiduciary duty after the partnership sold vacant loss at the low fair market value to an entity affiliated with the chief operating officer", "so the partnership is depleting partnership assets by selling vacant lots to an entity that's affiliated one of the partners for less than fair market value in less than the price stated in the partnership agreement", "so the lending partner sues and says that's a breach of your fiduciary duty to me and that's a breach of contract", "and i want an injunction stopping the partnership from selling those lots", "the trial court granted the plaintiff an injunction stopping the defendants from selling money for loss in order to protect the plaintiff's financial interests in the lots", "the second district for the trial court holding up the limited partners breach of contract and breach of fiduciary duty sued for money damages constituted an adequate remedy at law", "and thus there was no replicable harm", "in addition the second district rejected the plaintiff's argument that the injunction did not concern a financial interest because it concerned the partnership assets which were real estate as the court stated the plaintiff's entitlement based on the partnership agreement is to the profits and the partnership not an interest in the real estate", "the complainant alleges financial injury to the plaintiff by defendants conveyance of loss at a price less than set forth in the partnership agreement because the only leave requested by the plaintiff is monetary and jumped at relief is inappropriate and resembles a prejudgment attachment", "here the defendants are trying to basically do the same thing that the sorry the plaintiffs are trying to do the same thing that they the point of it in franz they're trying to recast their complaints", "one for dimunition in a corporate asset or interest but just as the franz plaintiffs were trying to recast their complaint is one for dimunition and the partnership assets but in both cases what the plaintiffs are really seeking is monetary damages", "they're seeking redress for financial harm and as franz and many other cases in other contexts point out that is no basis for injunction", "and there's essentially no in a legal equitable attachment", "and that brings me to my next point on the appeal", "the injunction is basically an end around illinois attachment statutes", "illinois has a statute that covers what snider seats", "one enforces the defendant to set aside money or other property prior to judgment and that's seven hundred and thirty five ilcs fifty four thousand one hundred and one the prejudgment attachment statute", "but of course that statute requires snider to post a bond to provide defendant a remedy", "in case the attachment is wrongful", "it forces snider before depriving the defendant of property that was in his control to put a little skin in the game himself he's got to post a bond", "he hasn't done that in this case and yet the injunction issue", "so the injunction has just done an end around the attachment statute and constitutes and then legal equitable attachment", "the final point on appeals the injunction is erroneous because it fails to preserve the status quo", "the status quo is defined as the least peaceable uncontested status between the parties", "that point was the five hundred and twenty one email from snider to rooksby stating that carbon recovery wasn't going to be making any more payments to anyone", "at that point carbon recovery certainly didn't have a receivable from peabody coal or sipc or anyone else for transactions after five hundred and twenty one but the injunction changes that it forces it forces rooksby to deposit money into the court", "and so the injunction does not preserve the status quo", "so in summary the injunction was erroneous because there was an avid remedy of law", "it was around the attachments statutes and it failed to preserve the status quo", "and against these pretty straightforward in my mind clear arguments that the injunction was improper snider makes just a few arguments which in my opinion are fairly easily dispatched", "first he attempts to distinguish the franz case because this case involves a derivative it's not received individually and derivatively on behalf of the corporation", "but that's just a distinction without a difference because the derivative claim is also for money damages and therefore is an adequate remedy at law to whatever dimunition and the corporate interest is being alleged", "he also attempts to compare this case to the bowman case but the bowman case involves a uniform fraudulent transfer act", "it was a case under a different statute and not the attachment law and any comparison to this case with attachment statutory cases", "it fails because snider did not post a bond", "finally snider argues that there is an exception to the rule against that will attachments based on the specific funds doctrine when the injunction involves a specific fund that issue in the lawsuit", "however this is clearly not a specific fund case", "first and foremost even a trial court stated that the basis for its injunction was not the specific fund doctrine", "it was not enjoining the use of order in the deposit of specific funds", "if the trial court didn't believe that that this order was going out in the attachment to specific funds how can rooksby claim that", "secondly there was no evidence that rooksby still had any of the specific funds from the transactions in his possession", "and of course it's their burden on their injunction to prove that and they did not", "thirdly the order doesn't refer to a specific fund instead it generally describes net sales proceeds from all full transactions rooksby engaged in after may of two thousand and fifteen", "a net sales proceeds is not a specific fund", "it's not a specific check with a check number or money sitting in a trust account", "it's a calculation of net profit after overhead", "there isn't one case in the jurisprudence of illinois that holds that someone's net profit after a calculation of overhead based on transactions is a specific fund that can be attached", "and the cases snider sites for this argument are in a positive and having criticized", "snider who relies heavily on all seasons excavating", "however all seasons stands for the proposition that if the defendant isn't solid and he only has one or two assets left in her real estate the coordinator joined the sale of the real estate based on the finding of insolvency", "i would also point out that the injunction and offseasons excavating was directed to specific real estate and preserve the status quo", "neither of which this injunction does", "snider also cites a case called amarin insurance but in amarin insurance there was a reinsurance contract that was at issue and both parties both payments under the reinsurance contract and the question in the case was going to be whether the reinsurance contract was valid or not and whether it should be rescinded", "and the court ordered that both parties make the payments that they were supposed to make pay each other under the contract to pay those into the court as the court was says that the question of whether the contract is valid was getting litigated", "so in that case both parties made deposits", "and since the franz were specifically earmarked as they are payments under the contract they were clearly specific funds for that contract", "they weren't net sale proceeds for six months worth of transactions", "finally the kishan case the kishan involves a case where money was already in trust", "the parties had agreed prior to the lawsuit to put money in trust", "then this dispute broke out about that trust account and the court enjoined the use of the proceeds in the trust account", "so it's a pure application of a specific fund doctrine", "in short none of basis support the specific fund theory that snider has alleged the injunction is erroneous for the reasons that i've stated", "and i would reserve further argument until my reply time unless there are further questions", "all right thank you counsel thank you argument for the appellate", "more injustice golden justice sherman and justice stewart", "my name is sandra tivoli may i please the court", "i represent plaintiff appellate gregory snider", "this court has to decide today weather the trial court abused discretion with the standard of review today", "did the court abuse the discretion when it enjoined mr rooksby from further dissipating fifty of the whole proceeds and whether the abuse of discretion when it ordered that that same fifty be deposited into mr rooksby's attorney's trust account", "after considering the evidence that was introduced at the hearings the motions the arguments the case law and the trial courts analysis and application of that it's very clear that the trial court did not abuse it's discretion for the reasons that the court found that the documented evidence that was introduced intended to show that the proceeds from the sale of the coal were a carbon recovery asset", "that's what the court was preserving", "it was a carbon recovery asset", "it was not taking away money from mr rooksby", "it was preserving an asset that mr snider and carbon recovery had an interest in", "second the preliminary junction was not about two or three judgment attachment because again this was a carbon recovery asset not mr rookbys asset", "and third there was no heir because the injunction involves specific funds that are the subject of the litigation", "and i just wanted to highlight a few facts that i think we're kind of left out or glossed over", "at the hearing at the first hearing on our motion which was the october 22nd hearing", "it was our original motion for preliminary injunction", "at that hearing we introduced six different documents", "one was the purchase order from southern power coop and it was given to general waste services", "in case you're not clear who general waste services is", "that was an agent of carbon recovery because general waste services help the insurance and that's not disputed", "so it was a general waste services was used by carbon recovery in order to gain the access to southern illinois power", "well so that is one document", "and again like i said it was that there was a vendor agreements where general waste services to supply coal to southern power and it was a longterm agreement", "it wasn't just for a period of time", "second we introduced greg's truck services invoices and those invoices all identified that the coal that was delivered from kinder morgan's facilities to southern illinois power coop and then identified general waste services on that as well", "we introduced four different access agreements", "there's a series of access agreements", "some that have terminated some that extended the time between general waste services and kinder morgan and those access agreements is what allowed generally services to even access kinder morgan's properties to remove the coal", "at that time mr rooksby i believe introduced the peabody coal contract", "at the rehearing so mr rooksbys attorneys filed the motion for a rehearing and at the rehearing we further introduced truck scale receipts", "so when the coal was delivered to southern illinois power coop a truck scale receipt was issued to the driver of the truck", "and that also identified general waste services", "this is for the same period of time", "let me just ask a question and the things you're talking about now to go liability and more or less at whether an injunction should have been entered at all", "but what i heard your opposing counsel say is he's not even appealing that he i guess agrees and he can correct me if i'm wrong here when he gets back up he agrees that there i guess there was sufficient evidence to enjoin his client from further sales and so forth", "he's only complaining about having to put the money up", "right right", "and our point there is that again he's claiming that the money held is mr rooksby's", "and i'm not trying to stop you from making your argument i guess my point is and i read in the briefs and there there was a lot on both sides about whether or not there really was whether or not the plaintiff showed a likelihood of success on the merits more or less whether it was reasonably likely that he'd be successful and so forth", "right", "it sounds to me like it doesn't matter if they're really not even appealing that issue", "and they're not asking that the injunction be wiped out completely", "no they're not", "its about putting up the money and the money that they put up that they think that they shouldn't have to because that was mr rooksby's money", "the court took away as an equitable attachment would it takes away a person's property in hopes that you're going to get a judgment but that's not what the trap we're here found", "and that's what it wasn't the evidence because the trial court went through a very lengthy analysis about this and said that the the evidence overwhelmingly show that those sale proceeds were a carbon recovery asset", "how else can we what other remedy do we have besides an injunction to enjoin mr rooksby from further dissipating a carbon recovery asset because he had it didn't tell us he diverted our allegations are that he diverted the funds but that it's that it's a carbon recovery asset", "that's what we've always contended did you ask for that other remedy and the alternative to not dissipate", "yes", "the corporate assets", "yes", "and that's exactly what the court says that he is to stop from further dissipating the corporate asset or sorry stop further dissipating fifty of the net sale proceeds because the court found that it was a corporate asset", "and the gross proceeds of the sales were something like four hundred thousand right", "and more down to ten thousand", "within four months mr", "so that the court invited we didn't know at first how much he had actually received because we couldn't get that out of him that information out of him", "so the court also asked for an accounting", "and when at the second hearing in november the november 16th hearing which we also have a report of those proceedings", "then he ended at the end of that hearing and accounting that showed that he made about three hundred and i have the number here three hundred and twelve thousand", "and within four months or less than four months he had spent or gone through almost three hundred thousand", "and i was only twenty thousand left", "so it was that twenty thousand figure that they have acknowledged through that accounting that they still had that the court decided was a corporate asset", "that only fifty of that was held there and asked to be the deposited just from further dissipation", "and it was it was held in their current attorneys trust accounts the court didn't feel a bond was necessary because it has essentially acts as as the protection that a bond would have", "so if we're wrong in the end after trial on the merits it can be returned to mr rooksby and there's no harm", "okay so this let me get back up again make sure i understand", "so when you're talking about this was all done through waste services that's because of the contract was set on my power property required that it go through waste services and he didn't present any new contract that provided anything else", "and so that's evidence that he was more or less playing off of the carbon recovery name to make the sale", "exactly your honor", "okay", "that's your point there yes yes let me try to get back on track", "yeah so i've highlighted the fact that that i wanted to highlight", "and again the court felt that by depositing the money into mr rooksby's own attorney account which especially you know in the surety capacity that the parties would be protected and the need for bond would be unnecessary", "as your honor pointed out mr brooksby did not produce a separate purchase order", "he did not produce access agreements with kinder morgan the peabody contract so it happens only was from july 9th and terminated on july 31st", "there's nothing that extended that peabody contract and the greg's truck service invoice actually reflects sale or pulled deliveries from through the month of august", "i'm sorry what through the month of august two thousand and fifteen as well as the trucks sale receipts", "so our first argument that's the plaintiff is entitled to an injunction to preserve a company asset", "in order to obtain an injunction mr snider did need a established four criteria clearly ascertainable ascertainable right that needs protection", "the appellant doesn't dispute that i don't think he raised that in his his appeal", "but even in the event that he did carbon recovery clearly had an ascertainable right", "and snider as a member of carbon property clearly had an ascertainable right that needed to be protected that being the assets of the company", "an irreparable injury that would resolve in the protection of an injunction is the second criteria", "and the proceeds from the sale of pole for carbon recovery that was the only source of income at the time", "it still is", "without an injunction in place mr rooksby would be allowed to further dissipate the little bit that's remaining", "and we would still have the super money judgment but the court is allowed to allow the court can has the authority to allow us to protect our own assets", "for instance you have a winning lottery ticket you've lost it someone picks it up and turns it in", "and do you have to wait until they spend the money or to get a money judgment against important or can you go in and ask the court stop them from spending all that money preserve it so that it's still there", "it's their asset", "it's the next akin to the specific fund stock", "and i disagreed with judge harrison when he did make the comment during his lengthy analysis that this was not a specific funds i disagree with that", "i believe that this is specific funds because it relates to specifically we're we're only looking at the sale proceeds the sipchem to pay for the full delivery for the time asserted", "and those specific funds are in the are part of the controversy here that we were saying that he's dissipating them that they're carbon recovery assets and they're they're specifically related to the case", "and in those circumstances then the court is allowed to attach or to enjoin the use of those specific funds", "and those were comments made by the trial court judge regarding the specific funds", "yes because i it's not an order for preliminary junction", "right that's correct", "it was comments during his analysis as to why he reached the conclusion that he did and your honor i'd also like to point out that the court took in consideration he very narrowly limited this injunction", "he took into consideration mr rooksbys interest as a fifty member of carbon recovery", "and that's why he only ordered fifty of the proceeds to be deposited into the account", "so he took the strictest and narrowest approach that he could that would that would favor an equitable result", "i didn't agree i wanted more deposited it but the court also acknowledged that that's all it's left at a twenty thousand", "well then you are stuck with getting a judgment for the balance", "your honor the i was looking into the criteria and both of the criteria for an injunction", "and there has to be an absence also in an adequate remedy of law and as i stated before there's no other remedy at law that can be utilized to continue to preserve an asset that's still there", "we know that there was twenty thousand left", "what other remedy can we have to preserve that asset that carbon recovery clearly has an interest in", "the fourth criteria and the likelihood of success in the merits was evident from the trial", "court's finding that the documented evidence tended to show that the proceeds from the sale of the whole wasn't asset of carbon recovery", "here's my second point your honor at the preliminary judge was not an equitable attachment", "and i touched on this earlier an equitable attachment consists of an injunction prohibiting a party from transferring or using his or her own property", "that's not what the court did here", "the court bound that the evidence show that it was not mr rooksby property that it was a carbon recovery property", "so the court was preserving and protecting carbon recoveries property not taking away mr rooksbys property", "and i agree with with mr petri that an equitable attachment you know is is an attempt by a party to get around the statutory requirements", "we're prejudging attachment if this word equitable attachment is true but as i stated before it's not equitable attachment because we're not taking us from that he owned", "further the prejudgment attachment statute under those factors there's eleven and numerated that allows you to get a prejudgment attachment", "there's no error for the court attaching these certain proceeds because we would have been entitled to a prejudgment attachment had it gone that way because mr rooksby is there's no dispute that mr rooksby", "is an outofstate resident", "that's one of the enumerated cases were prejudgment attachment", "but you would have had to post the bond", "and your honor abide has been subsequently and it's not for the record cause it happened", "you can't check that yeah you can't check that", "but you yeah you're you're you're correct", "and that bond is in case you know that they're they're wrong but the bond is also attached or used before there's your lab for hearing and time is your hearing", "so it's it's when the court goes or the person goes in and seeks attachment without what would that without giving notice to the defendant and the court does require a bond", "here", "the defendant had noticed we had a hearing on it and the court decided a bond was not required at first because of the minimal amount that was deposited and second because it was deposited into mrrooksbys own attorney's trust account", "you're on the case of franz v calico development corporation that is cited by the appellant", "it is distinguishable from this case in that case the court specifically found that the plaintiff who only sought monetary relief against the defendant for breach of contract didn't have an interest in the property that the plaintiff stopped to enjoy", "and the court found in that phase where they played it didn't have an interest in that property", "the court found that it was tantamount to an equitable attachment in this case the it's different from this case just been removed from this case because here again the court found that the assets that belong to carbon recovery", "at least the evidence that was presented at the time tended to show that it was a carbon recovery asset and that carbon recovery had an interest in the asset", "my third final argument was that the specific funds doctrine applies", "and i touched on this as well", "so even if the court were to find that it was tantamount to an equitable attachment we have always maintained that the specific doctrine fund applies the funds that issue in the case have specific connection to the underlying dispute", "and all of the trial judge did comment in his analysis that he didn't agree with that we respectfully objected to that and disagreed with the judge", "and then explain why we thought it was a specific funds doctrine", "case law in illinois is where the funds which are the subject of the injunction or also the subject matter of the litigation as there are", "in this case the issuance of an injunction is valid and has been held the existence of a remedy at law does not deprive equity of its power to grant conjunctive relief", "so the fact that plaintiff alternatively maybe a money judgment does not deprive a court of equity the power to grant a preliminary junction", "and we do cite all seasons excavating vs what heart which did not specifically find that they were entitled to it because of the insolvency", "it was again just specific funds doctrine", "v schultz where the preliminary injunction restraining payment of the escrow agent to the trust was proper to maintain the property in controversy", "and in remarriage of davenport where the exwife the court found exwife was entitled to a preliminary injunction preventing the exhusband from dissipating expected proceeds from the sale of family property that she had no interest", "in all examples where the party seeking the injunction has other remedies of law but injunctions were upheld because it preserved the funds and controversy", "during the hearings on the original motion for preliminary injunction the motion for hearing again the the documents were introduced and we contended that the board agreed that attended to show that this was a common recovery asset", "so the specific funds are at issue in the litigation", "and the specific funds are part of the injunction", "for all the hawthorne reasons your honor the plaintiff gregory snider individually and derivatively on behalf of carbon recovery present the court affirm paragraphs b and z of october 26th two thousand and fifteen order for a preliminary injunction and nothing further", "okay thank you counsel thank you first of all your honor there was evidence that the coal that was traced subsequent to may 21st two thousand and fifteen was the peabody coal", "and that it was a different type of coal than a sitc had allowed them to go in and process", "and so the the kind of allegations they're casting upon me here aren't taking into account the full evidence that was placed in the record of the hearing", "more importantly the the question here that they're saying well it's a carbon recovery asset its a carbon recovery asset but that's the question for the suit", "that is the question for the actual trial at the end of the day whether it's a carbon recovery asset or whether it was our asset whether it was rooksbys asset that's the final question on the trial", "but most importantly it is still just financial harm", "it's still just a suit for money damages", "what they're alleging as being their their asset is still just a financial asset", "and so they have a suit for that", "there was and that's why the finding that there's no finding of bankruptcy or insolvency the alleged there is no irreparable harm because it's still a financial asset", "and there has been no finding that he can't otherwise pay even worth the corporate assets and the important thing to look at there is the franz case in the franz case the real estate that was an issue was undisputedly a partnership asset undisputedly a partnership asset yes the court would not enter the appellate court reversed the trial court's injunction using the reasoning the trail court would used the reasoning well the lots are sold", "there's going to be a depletion of the partnership assets", "the appellate court says the second district said look even though they're partnership assets it doesn't matter because it's still just the financial interest that they're trying to vindicate", "and there's an adequate remedy at law for that", "and so this is kind of a sheldon they say oh it's a corporate asset", "therefore you put the junction on it when you say no it's our asset", "of course that's the final question at trial", "that's the final question of trial but more importantly whether it is a corporate asset whether it is rooksbys assets it's a financial harm and they have an adequate remedy of law", "and that's why the attachment law doesn't require that it be your property", "it requires that you be in possession of the property as we were we were in control of the of the monies we had made the sales we were in controlling that was deprived by this injunction", "and so the question of whose it is is not really the question for the injunction", "the question is is there an adequate remedy at law to vindicate the alleged wrong and here is counseling and make sure i'm correct on this you're you're appealing both the paragraphs that b and c", "b is a don't dissipate otherwise being fifty of the net sale proceeds paid to your client and c is deposit one half of the net proceeds didn't use fifty that said one half we're talking about the same money i was like well don't dissipate but i'm going to go further than that", "the court's saying i want you to deposit the ten thousand in the bank", "i believe", "i think he was there's net sale proceeds", "and i believe fifty he's ordered not to dissipate and fifty he's told to put in trust", "well and later the judge said ten thousand", "ten thousand is in trust", "but still a dispute about whether or not that is actually half of what's left i guess isn't there", "i mean i assume the plaintiff's claiming you know there ought to be more than that left or", "i suppose they're not bound by", "the counsel said that in the argument", "my question is is the fifty of the net sale proceeds referenced in paragraph b the same amount as referenced in paragraph c which is to be deposited in the trust", "i believe so", "i believe so", "i'd have to i'd have to i'd have to double check the record on that one", "all right please proceed", "okay", "and there was a lot of thought about the standard or you being discretion well in the franz case again the case that reads right in this case the standard review was abusive discretion for enjoining the sale of those slots and the court held yes it's an abuse of discretion", "when the person pays your sentence it is a abuse of discretion", "when a person has an adequate remedy at law to enjoy the sale", "thank you counsel", "thank both of you for your brief your arguments", "we'll take this case under"], "name": ["gov.uscourts.illappct.5-15-0490/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_5-15-0490/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_5-15-0490_DOT_2016-06-22_DOT_flac_00000.flac", 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14005, 12855, 8468, 16562, 18663, 5000, 11430, 8340, 13746, 1084, 2320, 1500, 3333, 1820, 2067, 14240, 19140, 4850, 15273, 8020, 3433, 16730, 10030, 6923, 8073, 3378, 10025, 8833, 9360, 11700, 31288, 22893, 7360, 1657, 2755, 8723, 13330, 2527, 833, 833, 9307, 8020, 3860, 2810, 7140, 833, 1327, 3580, 4190, 2770, 2570, 1620, 8380, 930, 2870, 5700, 3083, 3246, 2383, 2131, 9163, 1617, 1100, 5710, 2020, 3130, 4360, 2724, 5466, 2550, 1997, 943, 2440, 3120, 3280, 2830, 11990, 3360, 5852, 3648, 19900, 4770, 833, 2853, 7178, 13346, 11070, 3370, 3670, 2270, 6090, 1930, 2270, 11917, 2833, 1490, 4910, 1150, 3850, 4200, 1630, 4570, 5000, 1342, 833, 6385, 3587], "label": ["the next case is people versus hall five million one hundred and seventy thousand one hundred and seventy nine", "good morning your honors", "to the court council i'm hannah strong", "and i represent william russell hall in this case", "this is a recovery petition and an appeal from the denial of his recovery petition alleging that he is no longer a sexually dangerous person", "i raise two points in this case", "and their basically pretty straight forward", "just as a little background on the stp program itself a person is committed to the department of corrections as a sexually dangerous person", "usually upon a second charge second or third or fourth charge on some sex related offense the state will choose rather than to proceed on a criminal charge that they will file a sexual dangerous persons petition instead", "court i think the reason is because then they can be committed for a much longer time because quite often there are fairly minor sex offenses that lead to this but in any event the new defendant is is there any minor sex offense you're right that was bad phrase", "lessor significance than there are far far worst things", "quit often the charges are relative realm", "yes so maybe a class three as opposed to a class x", "and then they would proceed on an stp petition instead", "the defendant is evaluated to see if he meets the criteria", "and then generally a trial was held to determine if he is in fact a sexually dangerous person", "in this case mr hall admitted the petition", "he did not take this to trial", "he acknowledged he had a problem", "he stipulated to findings of the evaluators and off he went in about two thousand and two", "two thousand and sixteen he files a petition alleging that he is no longer a sexually dangerous person", "we had a trial in two thousand and seventeen", "the burden of the state at that trial is to prove by clear and convincing evidence that mr hall is still sexually dangerous", "so what is a sexually dangerous a sexually dangerous person is someone who has a mental disorder either congenital or acquired that affects his ability to control themself", "that or in other words that mental disorder causes him to have criminal propensity", "then he had actually in fact acted on those in the past", "and then he is substantially probable to commit further acts of sexual misconduct", "those are the four elements", "so in this case we", "the filed petition per say to be released yes in two thousand and sixteen and that's typically not how it happens", "and then an evaluation is done", "and if that the state retained two experts the client should know", "heller young is a treatment provider she is not an expert", "dr klaus is the one you hear his name a lot in these cases he works for wexford", "he does these evaluations as a subcontractor", "and he's an amazingly brilliant man", "i mean he's remarkable to watch testify", "he absolutely has like he can remember anything that ever happened that he ever read about about it about then an inmate it's remarkable but doesn't mean his opinions are always right", "and this case he found that mr hall still suffered from pedophilic disorder which was what his original diagnosis was", "the history of mr hall was even as young as thirteen or fourteen he was fondling younger girls", "those acts do not qualify under as a an act to support a pedophilia diagnosis because you have to be more than sixteen to be diagnosed as having pedophilic disorder", "unfortunately mr hall's just kept it up", "he fondled people", "he did ultimately sexually penetrate a child", "he did do that", "he did have a conviction for child pornography was his original conviction in one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine", "he was put on probation for thirty months and then in two thousand no maybe it was ninety seven ninety nine petitionary revoke his file and they put him on some more probation for thirty months", "then he committed an act", "and that's what led to the initial petition here", "so he's been committed from two thousand and two or thereabouts until two thousand and sixteen when he filed this petition", "he's working the program which is a four phase program", "the first phase is orientation", "phase two is like the beginning of sex offender treatment", "phase three is where you're understanding and applying the principles and phase four is it's time for discharge", "at the time of trail mr hall was in phase two", "so it is the state's job to prove that he has pedophilia that he had this at the time", "dr klaus testifies that once you've got it you've always got it", "one thing you can do is learn to control it", "that's what sex offender treatment is all about", "the problem is at trial they presented absolutely no evidence that mr hall has any sexual urges fantasies or troubling thoughts regarding children", "that's one way that you can be diagnosed with pedophilia", "he hasn't committed any acts against children and to be fair there aren't any children at big money", "there are however publications happens all the time that these inmates are caught with child pornography or a sears catalog that they now say it's pornography because it happens to be at the stb program", "they still make a sears catalog no ma'am", "i find them to get in trouble with religious documents that have pictures of children", "that's pornography if you're at big money mr hall's never had any of that", "never not a single time in fourteen years has he had any sort of violations", "he's not gotten a ticket for inappropriate possessions", "he's not watching inappropriate tv shows", "and he has told dr klaus that he no longer has those fantasies about children", "so where's the basis to find that he still has pedophilia other than once you've got it you've always got it and this case everybody got distracted by the fact that mr hall has moved his love interests onto the treatment providers", "not a good choice not something that they recommend and they're against it", "totally understandable", "but the most important thing about a treatment provider is they're adults", "so that suggests he shifted his interest from pedophilia to adult women", "then the next most important thing about that is he's never done a single thing about it", "he fantasizes in his head", "he admits it because it's part of his homework and he's required to acknowledge everything that he is thinking sexually", "and he does", "he's acknowledged it", "and it's been dealt with", "he seems to have developed a crush on one treatment provider who was leaving that sent him into some sort of suicidal spiral and it was a terrible situation", "but the important thing to take away from that she's an adult", "so you're asking us to reverse the jury yeah yeah", "i'm asking you to reverse the jury verdict because the initial diagnosis that dr klaus testified to is not supported by any evidence in the record", "not a single thing other than that sixteen years ago he had pedophilia", "and was the jury instructed on that they would just instruct generally as to reasonable doubt what the elements were", "but i mean were they instructed as to pedophilia and what the elements of that are yes", "i believe that i'm sure they were instructed about it", "so they have the right to reject diagnosis as you're asking us to reject it yes", "technically they would've have that right", "and i don't have to remind all of you how he did his cases are and how difficult it is", "it's not a carpet it's not a shoplifting", "it's difficult for jurors", "it's difficult to get jurors", "and especially if he's now admitting that he likes older women as opposed to younger women", "yes he likes the lady he likes the adult ladies and interesting thing that dr klaus did say about when asked directly what is the appropriate place for his attraction in the setting in which he resides well there isn't one", "this treatment program is designed to get exactly the results that we've gotten with mr hall", "and that's my second point", "even though dr klaus testified he wants to see him acknowledge why he does what he does acknowledge his cycle his deviant thoughts manage his arousal develop interventions because nobody's ever going to stop the thoughts that go on in their heads", "they just have to learn to manage them", "and that is a successful treatment", "dr klaus says describes what he wanted to see", "and so did heather young described what she wanted to see", "and mr hall has done those things", "the fact that he has biggest problem he's got now is that he has a crush on his treatment provider is a sign that this program is working", "it's working", "he's redirected his interest to the most appropriate outlet that he has", "and most importantly he's not acted on it", "and that's what this is all about", "so not only is there no underlying diagnosis to support this conviction no evidence to support the diagnosis even though dr klaus believes that he has not made enough progress so that he has no longer substantially problems to commit these offenses in the future mr hall has actually shown all of those things that dr klaus wants to see in treatment", "even heather young admitted he had made amazing progress", "he understood", "first she would say he doesn't understand the concepts but when presented with the homework that show he did she acknowledged well yes he did seem to understand them", "it just doesn't apply them", "it was very much move the ball you know whenever he would accomplish one thing", "now all of a sudden he's short somewhere else rather than just taking it as gospel their word without looking at why they're reaching those conclusions", "it serves no purpose to even take this to a jury if that's what we're going to do", "we're asking for a rubber stamp", "if we don't look more deeply it's hard for jurors to do that", "it's not as hard for your honor's to separate the emotion from what the law says", "and that's what we're asking you to do here", "look at the law look at what the actual evidence was and we'd ask that you would find that they did not prove by clear and convincing evidence that he is substantially probable to commit certain acts in the future", "thank you", "do you have a rebuttal counselor morning your honors also it pleases the court assistant attorney general garson fisher for the people", "you honor these people do have to show by clear and convincing evidence that a sexually dangerous person remains a sexually dangerous person when they file a discharge petition pursuant to section nine but this part can only overturn the jury's determination of that", "the state meeting their burden if that determination against the manifest weight of the evidence here the uncontested testimony at the hearing is that defendant suffers from pedophilic disorder", "and the uncontested testimony at the hearing was that the understanding of that disorder at this time is that when someone has it it doesn't go away", "the deviant arousal and thoughts that are associated with pedophilia cannot be cured they don't go away with time", "that does not mean that the sexually dangerous person is condemned to a lifetime of treatment in a secure treatment facility because they can with a sex offender specific program learn to control those urges and this respondent has made some progress", "but the uncontested testimony at the hearing was also that this respondent has not made sufficient progress to avoid a substantial risk of reoffending should he have to operate outside of the secure detention facility big money", "he has begun to understand what his deviant thoughts are", "and he has shown according to the testimony of both the state section nine expert and his care provider at big money a very preliminary understanding of what his deviant and cycle is", "let me just interrupt you for a moment because i don't want you to think that you've been disrespected but we have had a judge leave", "and i don't know if you've been here before but everything is being recorded and is available to this the public even but justice moore will be listening after this is all over", "i understand your honor", "okay i just didn't want you to think about it", "it's not my first argument", "and then my first argument in the court justice okay", "we have to step off the bench", "all right sorry to interrupt no not at all your honor", "what these respondent has not done is been able to identify sufficient interventions to prevent a substantial probability of reoffending outside of the secure detention facility", "does he have to show that he won't reoffend as to children or does he have to show he won't reoffend generally actually whose burden is that yours the state's the state's burden to prove a substantial probability that he will reoffend", "if he will reoffend right a substantial probability yes your honor", "but is that as to children or is that as to sexual offenses generally well based on the language of the statute it would be sexual assault or sexual molestation of children", "because we know that he shifted his sights on to older older people women older women", "i hate to use the term older women because of course i am an older woman", "i know well we noticed that he has had very fit testimony of his care provider and the section nine expert inappropriate sexual attractions towards the adult women in big money", "that doesn't mean that he has shifted his inappropriate attraction and stopped declining reaching his conclusion that he suffers from pedophilia", "in addition to reviewing records also conducted a two hour interview with defendant those of who responded reaching his conclusion", "he did display additionally inappropriate attraction towards adults females at big money his care providers", "well i am wondering the relevance of that", "there is some relevance in that as dr young or to the his care provider henrietta young testified", "it demonstrates that he inappropriate believes that any time any female is nice to him that it indicates sexual attraction to him", "and she also testified that in group therapy he was able to recognize or identify those inappropriate thoughts", "but when challenged on their appropriateness wasn't willing to accept any of the pushback or feedback from group on his inappropriateness", "i will say i don't think that it is a major weight on the state side of the scale and there's as i said the section nine expert as well as his care providers undisputed testimony regarding each of the elements that the state has to prove which is supported by actuarial risk assessments which showed that respondent was three times more likely than the average sex offender to reoffend in an unsecure setting", "this is just one more small weight on the safe side of the scale and when confronted with all of these pieces of evidence i don't think the state could say that the jury's conclusion that the state had met his burden of showing by clearing evidence respond with a sexually dangerous person was against the manifest weight of all of these pieces of evidence", "unless your honor has any further questions people ask that this court affirm that judgment in the circuit court", "thank you your honors", "counsel just very very quick", "counsel pointed out that dr klaus met with mr hall for some time to interview him and doing his evaluation that's part and parcel of doing these evaluations", "yet nothing in that evaluation or that conversation made its way into evidence about mr hall's interest in children other than a single statement that he denies he has any", "the report was not admitted into evidence", "it should have been", "yes yes yes it was", "it was admitted so how could you say nothing was admitted oh i mean nothing about his interview with him directed towards mr hall's interest in children", "so dr klaus should have talked to him and determined that he had all of this based on something mr hall said none of that that sort of thing didn't happen", "and his testimony was just that he denied that he had any of that interest", "and i do think you kind of hit the nail on the head", "the goal of this program is not to turn out perfectly well adjusted socially skilled individuals", "that'd be great", "i know a lot of people that need that", "the goal of this program is to address what got him in there", "and that is he could not control himself when it came to young girls", "we have no reason to believe that he has that problem now", "and his interest is now in adult women", "and he's controlling that", "and the only time it is an issue is as part of his treatment that he has willfully participated in for all these years and he is required to", "i'm sorry", "the ability to control with adult women", "although it's a minor piece in group therapy he did push back on that", "i mean he wouldn't accept responsibility for that so", "he can really can't act out on it in big money", "well you'd be surprised", "it would be with women", "one of his problems before was he stalked girls and he almost seems as if he was like someone like developmentally arrested at a very young age", "this is how he comes across to me", "we don't have that here", "he wrote in his homework that he was struggling with a provider leaving and he couldn't go on without her", "well he's not sending her notes to that effect", "he's not hanging around outside of her office which is an option", "he wasn't doing any of those things that anybody presented any evidence on", "so he's controlling it to the extent", "and then he didn't have an option to hang around her office while he's in a secured facility", "she works in a secure facility and maintains an officer there yeah", "so she's still there oh yeah", "just not with him", "correct and she teaches this is an interesting point", "she teaches the relapse prevention group which is a highlevel group", "that's like the end of level three sort of thing", "why not put her on then i didn't", "why didn't he put her on to talk about his because she didn't like that either her opinion was it was inappropriate and we didn't need any more of that talk that's why", "but she could have helped him theoretically", "well her opinion is the same that he should not love her either that it's inappropriate for him to love her", "but that isn't as to pedophilia and that's what i was asking", "what do you think is the answer to that question did they have to prove by clear and convincing that he's no longer attracted to children or that he no longer is going to act out on sexual fantasies generally i believe that it should be it is intended to address his problem", "and his problem is children because you can be a sexually dangerous person and there not be a child involved", "you can be there", "if he got there on pedophilia", "so that's my question is let's suppose he's sexually inappropriate with adult women now", "does that still make him a sexually dangerous person i say not because it is purely by the nature of her relationship and being in this facility as his treatment provider that makes her inappropriate", "that's the only thing that makes her inappropriate even according to their witnesses if she was a person on the street that he had a crush on as long as he maintained his crush to himself and didn't stalk her and didn't touch her no harm no foul", "that's what he's supposed to be learning", "and he is he's doing that in the facility that he is in", "so if we would affirm this", "what is the next stage that would happen with your client they are allowed to file a petition every two years", "it generally this one moved really quickly", "it generally takes a couple of years to get to trial", "but in other words he would continue treatment and is there a third stage yes there is a third stage which of course he is only entitled to get into when these treatment providers say he can get in and that's a problem", "and that's where i was going with the relapse prevention group", "it's a high level group", "he was in it only like six to eight or nine people can be in that group", "there's one treatment provider", "and guess who it is the woman he can't be around because he has a crush on her", "so he's kicked out of that group and he can't ever move forward unless she stopped working there", "so here he is", "and that's an unfortunate side effect of funding and what's going on in the prisons", "and it's just a reality of the patients but it's a concern", "thank you your honor", "thank you", "nicole will take this under advisement and under a decision in due course", "we will take a ten minute break and be back out"], "name": ["gov.uscourts.illappct.5-17-0179/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_5-17-0179/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_5-17-0179_DOT_2018-08-23_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "gov.uscourts.illappct.5-17-0179/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_5-17-0179/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_5-17-0179_DOT_2018-08-23_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "gov.uscourts.illappct.5-17-0179/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_5-17-0179/gov_DOT_uscourts_DOT_illappct_DOT_5-17-0179_DOT_2018-08-23_DOT_flac_00002.flac", 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-{"audio_document_id": "iRead2Know_1_-_The_Adventures_of_Eshe_the_Ethiopian_Elephant.flac", "identifier": "iRead2Know_1_-_The_Adventures_of_Eshe_the_Ethiopian_Elephant", "text_document_id": "iRead2Know_1_-_The_Adventures_of_Eshe_the_Ethiopian_Elephant.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [66269, 3160, 2539, 7672, 4039, 2183, 5688, 4862, 6410, 7030, 3250, 2468, 4208, 2904, 2260, 6680, 3170, 2023, 1863, 7629, 5381, 4300, 5103, 3727, 3700, 4052, 4988, 2520, 5700, 8363, 4710, 2857, 2093, 1950, 2890, 2703, 5387, 2453, 2737, 2290, 5260, 2360, 3240, 2225, 3545, 7233, 7020, 7360, 2673, 1547, 6727, 3037, 6430, 1973, 2307, 2570, 6730, 1743, 2570, 5000, 2996, 1454, 7130, 5000, 1590, 3170, 6710, 3700, 2540, 6350, 4630, 5520, 4610, 3990, 3480, 2400, 1790, 1870, 3010, 10450, 1920, 7810, 4163, 3143, 3550, 4780, 1986, 2784, 2479, 2098, 1822, 2804, 1970, 5000, 1913, 2530, 2830, 1813, 2330, 4371, 4379, 2013, 3720, 2510, 3520, 3650, 2040, 2710, 2710, 1060, 3270, 3140, 1950, 4220, 2220, 1743, 6400, 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talk your sense of style has captured my imagination and every funny thing you do the way you turn my sky blue every time i look at you i don't need no explanation simple chemistry when you're next to me look like an angel and you sound like poetry picture perfect every single time and i know that it's real when you put your hand in mine picture perfect kicking it with you and doing nothing at all is everything i want to do eshe is a young outgoing and lovable african elephant", "she lives deep in the green grasslands of ethiopia", "eshe loves her home in the ethiopian forest", "her home has many hills and a big lake called lake tana and a beautiful waterfall called the blue nile falls", "eshe loves to laugh and play with her family and her forest friends", "she has so much fun all day long", "eshe runs free through the forest under the beautiful african sun until the bright stars come out at night", "eshe sleeps a happy safe sleep with her mom lovingly by her side", "mom what does my name mean well in swahili eshe means life", "in amharic the first language in the entire world your name means hooray and okay", "that's what i said when i gave birth to you my dear eshe", "now go to sleep", "eshe thinks she looks funny because she has the biggest longest trunk", "eshe quickly learns that her trunk helps her a lot", "she can even smell a skunk with her trunk", "yikes run a skunk a skunk eshe learns to pick up many things that she wants with her trunk", "she can pick up very big things and very little things", "her trunk has two fingers at the end", "eshe sprays water out of her trunk", "swish spray my very own water fountain hooray eshe does cool tricks with her trunk showing off for her friends", "eshe's ears are so so so big they just keep on growing", "these big ears help eshe hear sounds from far far away", "wow look at those big ears hey i heard that laughs eshe", "i like my ears i can even hear the most quiet whisper", "and my ears keep me nice and cool in this hot african sun", "flat flat flat goes eshe's big ears eshe runs", "eshe loves to eat fruit grass leaves roots and flowers", "an ethiopian rose is a great snack", "yummy eshe's big trunk and fingers help her get all kinds of food that she can find", "eshe loves to eat those big ethiopian pancakes her mom makes called injera for breakfast and queen of sheba salad for lunch", "eshe runs swims eats plays and laughs with her whole family", "eshe is very happy when she is with her whole family", "eshe's family is called a herd", "eshe's mom leads the herd", "eshe loves her mom so much", "kiss kiss kiss mommy i love you", "eshe gives her mom the ethiopian three kiss greeting every day", "one day eshe's mom makes a special rule", "eshe you must go to school", "go to school and learn new things", "eshe says mom where is the school follow the path eshe you will find your way", "eshe has one problem", "where's the school eshe needs to find the school", "she wants to be at school on time", "she has so many questions about what school will be like", "who is her teacher what do you do all day in school eshe is a little afraid but she bravely walks the forest path", "she sees a very big bright purple glow like a spotlight and a very small purple frog with a crown", "oh hi purple frog where's the school purple frog wisely says eshe go to blue monkey's tree", "he lives by the school you'll hear him singing", "eshe hears a song", "hi blue monkey where's the school blue monkey sings go to the pink dolphins river she swims by the school", "eshe hears a splash splash splash", "hi pink dolphin where's the school pink dolphin says as she splashed dances it's by white tigers cave", "he runs on the road by the school", "whoosh whoosh whoosh", "white tiger runs by in a flash", "hey wait white tiger where's the school white tiger says shyly well just follow the yellow snake", "he slides by the school", "slither slither slither", "i am in a tether tether tether wall wall wall", "woe is me and my fate as a snake", "hi yellow snake", "um are you okay don't run away where's the school yellow snake was surprised eshe was not afraid of him", "oh ask bongo she jumps around by the school", "jump jump jump", "bongos ribbons fly as she jumps so high", "hi bongo where's the school bongo says go to butterfly castle i go to fancy parties there", "eshe was confused the castle is by the school", "then surprise surprise surprise", "eshe sees the butterfly castle a castle filled with many different butterflies swirling about", "wow you are all so beautiful you are all so many colors", "hello there can anyone tell me where the school is eshe cries out i really can't be late", "the butterflies make a beautiful rainbow right before eshe's eyes", "hurry eshe follow us all to the school", "at last eshe sees the school in the distance", "she sees the other children going into the school", "eshe is very excited", "eshe is very proud", "eshe found her way to school with her friends help", "the butterflies flew bongo jumped yellow snake slid white tiger ran pink dolphins swam blue monkey sang purple frog glowed", "what a great gang thinks eshe", "horray horray horray eshe you found the school eshe smiles and waves goodbye", "thank you my friends with a smile on her face and a tear in her eye", "a new adventure begins eshe's first day of school", "eshe is very excited today is her first day of school", "her mother says eshe please listen to your teacher and follow all her rules", "eshe sees her classmates", "they are all sitting quietly in their seats", "so eshe shyly walks to her seat", "everyone is looking at her", "eshe hears some whispering", "eshe wishes she can not hear what they are saying", "now here is one more problem", "one very big problem one super problem", "eshe cannot fit into her seat", "eshe tries this way eshe tries that way", "eshe wiggles eshe swiggles", "some classmates start to giggle", "eshe shimmies eshe shakes", "eshe pushes eshe squishes eshe squirms", "but eshe cannot fit into her seat no matter what she does", "no matter how hard she tries", "everyone is looking at eshe everyone is laughing out loud at eshe", "eshe is feeling very sad", "a very good day is now going very badly", "suddenly eshe's trunk smell something a little funny", "it smells like smoke", "ring ring ring goes the bell", "children children the teacher calls out", "this is a fire alarm", "please stay calm please get in line quickly", "but the children do not listen they run and run", "they push and push", "they squoosh they bump they thump", "they shimmy they shake", "they squirm like worms", "they all try to squeeze out the door at one time but they cannot fit no matter how hard they try", "they all plopped down to the ground", "they plop they drop thump they're getting nowhere", "oh my thinks eshe as she smells more smoke", "eshe has an idea", "she scoops up each boy and girl with her trunk and puts them on her back one by one", "eshe runs out the door leading the whole pack the whole school was behind eshe and all the boys and girls riding on her back", "the boys and girls cheer for eshe", "horray eshe horray the firetruck is outside the school", "the fireman thank eshe for being so cool", "good job eshe you were calm you were thinking", "this is always good in an emergency", "you are all safe boys and girls", "time to go back into the school", "eshe gets in line with her new friends", "hi eshe i'm maya", "hi eshe my name is susie", "hi eshe i'm jimmy", "hey i'm justin", "as they all walk into the classroom they see a change a big change", "the seats are all in a big circle with a big space in the center", "this is eshe's new seat", "this new seat cannot be beat", "eshe does not need to wiggle this way and that", "she does not need to push", "she does not need to squoosh", "she does not need to squirm like a worm", "she does not need to shimmy", "she does not need to shake", "eshe just sits on her mat and smiles", "eshe listens to her teacher as she begins the lessons", "what a day", "eshe thinks", "i am learning so much i am so happy", "i feel like dancing the eskisa and a new adventure begins", "tap two three shuffle hop step", "tap tap tap", "one two three kick", "jazz walk kick jump and kick ball change", "ballet plie and up", "plie and up arabesque", "one two three one two three wild step", "eshe points her toes and springs into the air and lands with a big fall thump oh hi grandma", "i'm dancing", "i see that eshe", "says grandma as she eshe a big hug", "eshe gives grandma three big kisses", "kiss kiss kiss", "let's go my sweet eshe let's go get a treat", "grandma i love to dance", "eshe says as she crunches", "but i'm not very good", "well eshe maybe you just have not found the right dance for you keep practicing", "grandma did you ever dance why yes eshe i was in the eskista dance troupe our traditional ethiopian dance the shoulder dance", "show me grandma", "show me oh my i have not done this in awhile", "here goes", "grandma begins to shake her shoulders with a smile", "then grandma really shakes her whole body", "grandma dances the eskista she looks so happy", "grandma you are a great dancer", "did grandpa dance with you why yes i met him at my show long ago", "when i dance i remember him", "that puts the love in my dance", "eshe was not sure she understood but she goes home and practices her dancing anyway", "at night eshe dreams", "she is in a big show in a glittering costume", "sparkling on the stage everyone is clapping for her", "rainforest talent show rainforest talent show", "eshe hears as she wakes up", "when is show eshe asks purple frog as he passes out the flyers", "it's in three weeks eshe", "this is to audition for the show", "what's that asks eshe", "an audition is showing your talent in a tryout to see if you can be in the show i'm a judge as you know", "rainforest talent show rainforest talent show sign up now", "blue monkey rushes over to purple frog", "i'm a blue blue blue blue monkey just hanging around up in my tree", "i'm blue blue blue monkey", "i'm just singing my song come listen to me", "my band plays the blues", "it sounds good", "says purple frog", "i will see you later", "purple frog purple frog purple frog", "yellow snake slithers around him", "can i sing my new country song i'm a yellow snake oh how my heart just breaks when the kids just run away and say i don't like snakes anyway they don't even know me", "they don't even care", "they don't see i'm lonely they don't know i'm there", "yellow snake whines his lyrics and sings out loud", "sure sure yellow snake take one", "says purple frog", "well i have to get going", "i have to pass out all the flyers before it gets too late", "so i have to glow", "eshe laughs purple frog glows at eshe", "eshe do you want to try out for the show before eshe answers a flash of white is in their sight", "bright light", "are they following me who eshe asks white tiger", "my fans the paparazzi everybody", "white tiger runs past her and grabs a flyer", "whoosh yes i'll take a flyer purple frog", "eshe says shyly", "good tomorrow by the school that's where we will be", "i will be judging look for me", "what is your talent eshe um um um bongo i can't give you a flyer while you are jumping to the sky", "bongo lands splat on her legs like a cat", "she swoops up a flyer with her horns and she is off", "dancing", "says eshe", "my talent is dancing", "okay see you tomorrow", "says purple frog", "he rushes away and leaves some purple glow that stays", "eshe goes home to practice her dancing", "eshe gets up early in the morning to go to the audition", "she watches the pink dolphins water ballet while she sings about being pink", "what do you think about a dolphin who is pink i play all day with my friends who are all gray", "i really know a purple frog who glows a blue monkey in a tree and an elephant named eshe", "sings pink dolphin", "white tiger is next and her opera is the best", "a group of turtles do a chorus kick in a line", "bongo does her acrobat", "now it's time for eshe's act but eshe can't move", "she is stuck like glue", "come on eshe don't be shy", "eshe runs and waves goodbye", "i'll be back", "eshe hopes grandma is home", "grandma come with me", "where eshe it's a surprise", "eshe lies", "eshe walks her grandma onto the stage and proudly announces her grandma's eskista dance", "grandma's shoulders shake and her body shimmies", "come eshe do it with me", "eshe can't say no", "eshe hops on stage her shoulders roll", "eshe and grandma are dancing together", "eshe sees the light in her grandma's eyes", "the judges are amazed", "yes yes you are in the show", "we want both of you", "eshe you were born to do the eskista", "says grandma", "i just put the love in my dance", "big love for you", "eshe's grandma squeezes her tight as they walk home", "eshe picks up something to eat", "ouch hey girl yikes and a new adventure begins", "eshe meets banana frog"], 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841, 3310, 3480, 2440, 3620, 12144, 10426, 11020, 3280, 8840, 4160, 5380, 5568, 4052, 3800, 3516, 1611, 7107, 5010, 11060, 3136, 7144, 3420, 10193, 2631, 17686, 4620, 17450, 4450, 7705], "label": ["mr olsen", "good afternoon", "what is it we live here what a welcome everybody to schenectady city hall in our first of what we hope will be a monthly open house program in schenectady", "thankful to our partners in keybank and their key to the city mortgage initiative", "which in this market is a unique product which i believe makes the city of schenectady more competitive and creates greater opportunity for home ownership in our community", "and i do thank our partners at keybank", "this is the largest open house undertaking that i believe has ever happened in the city of schenectady and i thank prudential realty for focusing on this and being initiative and all our partners that are joining as we look to build on today's success", "and again make it a monthly event that markets schenectady and attracts owneroccupied individuals to our great housing stock", "want to recognize some of my colleagues here council member peggy king lisa perazzo carl erickson our colleagues in the schenectady city school district school board president cathy lewis school board member bryan lindsey", "if anybody else oh cheryl", "sorry welcome also and we'll hear briefly from our school superintendent in a few minutes", "but we need responsible homeowners in the city of schenectady and i want to do everything in my power in utilizing city staff and resources to attract people to this community", "it is an opportunity here that is i believe unparalleled where we talk about high taxes we talk about some of the urban problems and why people tend to discount the city of schenectady in other communities", "and if you do the analysis and some of this is available in the packets and we have realtors and some of the individuals from key who can talk to you", "the market has overly compensated for some of those perceived conditions that exist in the market", "i mean that our housing prices are far lower than they should be", "and as a result of that some of the taxes and fees represent a greater proportion than in some of our suburban locations or other communities", "and people look at that and they say oh it's too high we don't want to live here but when you break it down if you buy a house and you look at your costs of home ownership the mortgage taxes insurance and other related fees in fact home ownership in the city of schenectady is far more competitive than any of the other communities in the region", "some of the questions come up about the school district and we acknowledged there've been problems in the past but there's a team in place that is committed to changing that", "we're fortunate to have jan regulski as the interim superintendent working with cathy lewis and the other members of the school board", "they are changing that dealing with the past problems and reinforcing what is really an unparalleled offering of courses in this school district", "it is i believe second to none in the capital district", "and if people want to move here want to take advantage of the school district you're going to find that there's opportunities and educational excitement that again is unequaled and unparalleled in the region", "and that if people sort through kind of the rhetoric some of the disinformation schenectady is the opportunity the place people should be they should look at schenectady and i want people to live here move here and participate in this community", "and it's with that i'd like to introduce one of our partners jay christiana president of prudential manor homes who has been a key driver in putting this together", "he is kind of a good term to use today", "welcome thank you good afternoon good afternoon", "i'd like to thank mayor mccarthy and keybank for making us a part of today's event", "we look forward to continuing this type of promotion with the city of schenectady for many years to come", "our company prudential manor homes realtors started ninety years ago right up the street", "i'm sorry can i there we go a little bit better", "started about ninety years ago right up the street where pinhead susan's now stands", "schenectady is a very important community to us and we appreciate everything the mayor continues to do to promote this terrific city", "we will have associates at all of the homes that are open on today's tour to answer any of the questions that you may have", "associate broker mary della sandra will be here to answer questions and donna rick and talla will be on the the bus this afternoon", "i invite you to download the prudential manor mobile app today", "this will help you with with the tour today", "it's available in the app stores on any any smartphone and it'll show you where all the properties in the area are are listed and give you more information", "i just thank you again and we look forward to a great event today thank you", "thank you", "next speaker is a good friend a great leader", "and as we go through a transition phase in the school district that we are truly have been blessed to have the expertise and knowledge of jan regulski", "he really has opened up the city school district to what we all know it can be should be and will continue to grow", "and jan thank you for being here today and participating in this", "thanks for those kind words", "when i think about keys to the city this city or any other city among the keys are the school systems i came here just about two years ago when a lot of the attention was on adults and adult related problems", "i'm happy to tell you we're focusing now on students on learning and on teaching", "we have a wonderful school system that gets lost in some of the noise", "as a longtime educator i see up close what's really positive about this school district", "we have more offerings for our students than any of the other school districts in this area", "it's a wonderful place", "if you want evidence of that we just recently the board just recently completed a process of looking for a new superintendent", "we were able to attract accomplished educators to apply for the city because they see what's here already and the potential to take it even further", "matter of fact the gentleman who was selected specifically responded to questions around why he came", "he wanted to come to this city so that he could have his own young children join in the school system and experience what an urban school system of this diversity and outstanding programs could offer", "no one can speak louder about this school district than someone who would make that kind of commitment", "so we really got a great school system and it is one of the keys to the city and it should attract more and more people to come and live here thank you", "and now one of our key partners joseph riedhammer from keybank and it is a unique product that key has put together in this market", "and i am truly thankful appreciative of the efforts of keybank and look forward to working with you in the future", "so we continue to make this city a great place to live and work", "thank you thank you everyone for coming today", "today is the day that key to the city comes home", "today home buyers can see for themselves the exceptional quality of homes this program makes affordable here in the city of schenectady", "we've been very pleased with the response this program has had among home buyers in schenectady", "at the start home buyers here had to take our word for it", "they knew about the program because we announced it publicly", "however today they can take a tour of a remarkable selection of high quality affordable homes that are available and the welcoming neighborhoods of schenectady", "key to the city is a true partnership that works as partnerships should with everyone bringing something unique to the table", "the city of schenectady brings leadership and attracting new residents to astound", "the city also brings to bear the expertise of many city departments demonstrating a commitment to providing a higher quality of life for the city residents", "prudential manor home has been a great partner from the start", "they bring many years of experience and professionalism as well as an outstanding selection of homes here within schenectady", "and keybank is proud to provide affordable financing that enables home buyers including firsttime home buyers to join those who already know what a great community the city of schenectady is to raise a family in", "the numbers of the programs speak for themselves", "we've had seventeen closing since inception of this program started at the end of september", "that's six more since our meeting here this past january", "we've had over ninety eight new inquiries since january 3rd in reference to this program bringing the total interest of prospective home buyers over two hundred and seventy since november", "we have seven loans currently in progress that we expect to be wrapping up here shortly in february", "so you can see the program is working and it's taken effect here in schenectady", "we're all glad you could all be here today", "and we're glad to all the homeowners that are in a position to take advantage of this unique financing", "we welcome you to see the fine values of the homes here in schenectady thank you", "the original concept when we started this was to kind of start out small this month and let it build over the course of the next few months by the individuals here", "we clearly see that it's been far more successful than i thought", "i appreciate everybody's interest their participation", "i had made the commitment to make city staff available at homes", "commissioner olsen is here", "chief della rocco chief cheers assistant chief kale collin", "unfortunately we don't have quite as many public employees to send out to every house today but we will have different people at different places", "and if people have questions we'll follow up as best we can today and get back to people on tuesday and wednesday so that we will convince people if this is the best community we want people to be here and one or two take pride in schenectady", "and with that i would open it up for any questions that individuals may have before we start the formal tour", "what specifically are the incentives to attract home buyers to the city the simple summary of keybank", "at this time they will write a note at a one hundred to value really with five hundred down they will loan up to fifty thousand above that", "so a homeowner can go in make repairs modifications to a home", "update the heating system put a new kitchen in bathroom", "it's a again unique product in this market where other banks are looking for twenty down higher participation by the owner", "so it's just it's creative financing", "in terms of quality of life in a sense you got practice you've got a great school district we're seeing investment by general electric", "we have a great park system and we have just a number of opportunities here that where schenectady continues to get better every day", "it seems like a kind of an almost desperate marketing attempt in a city that you must admit doesn't have a great reputation", "i will tell you i believe that reputation is propagated primarily by the media", "so it's all my fault then so that no it's not all your fault but if it the old saying if it bleeds it leads", "the good things the incremental things that are happening every day are not necessarily those things that are newsworthy", "the program delivering the school district is not something that you read about", "those kids there that are taking advantage of it they're really going to be great leaders for the future and it's part of this effort today is to get that message out that there are a lot of good things that are happening here that aren't necessarily newsworthy every day but it is a good community and we want people to participate in it", "could you expand on the programme delivering the school district probably the superintendent might be better to actually deal with that or the president of the school board", "what we have as an example in our high school a number of wonderful offerings that are not available in other places", "as an example international baccalaureate programme we have an outstanding fine arts programme we have an outstanding cisco programme that's recognized by cisco and sends many people to us", "we have just a wide range of offerings", "our course offering booklet for our high school i would stack up against any in the state", "the breadth of offerings is impressive", "the number of outstanding students who graduate and go on to the finest universities and colleges doesn't just land and do it successfully is evidence to how well they're prepared", "i don't have any feedback on programme incentive", "is there any other incentive in place because when i go i've done this thing with some of these properties the price for a two bedroom i mean extra for gas is hot", "so if there's any break a tax break or anything because i already have a two property in the city of seattle", "so owneroccupied would i've not qualified for that", "but is there any this program is for owneroccupied housing and that's the push that we're trying to do is attract owneroccupied individuals here to this community", "yes sir", "my name if keith rouse i was a member of schenectady", "we know the involvement of banks in the disaster in wisconsin today", "and it was due to these one hundred you know loans and it hit people and selling their mortgages out and so on", "how do we know that this bank is not involved in this i'd say this is somewhat of a much more conservative package", "i know that the acronyms that used to exist in the market were ninja loans no income no asset no job but you could qualify for a two hundred and fifty thousand mortgage not once but twice but three times", "those are the things that are were wrong", "that's why you have the collapse", "keybank is for credit qualified owneroccupied one and two family houses", "it's in fact a fairly conservative mortgage package with the down payment", "some of the other things it is far more competitive than other instruments that are available in the market today", "so why one hundred if you qualify just go to a a custom loan why do you ask to get a one hundred or the original i'll let key and address these the thing that they believe that's again a conservative package", "hi i'm joel bizure", "i'm the district sales manager for keybank here in albany", "there's often a negative connotation with a one hundred financing", "however we're responsibly lending", "we're offering pre and postpurchase counseling to our clients", "so we're not only educating them on how to pay their bills we're also educating them on how to maintain the home pay the bills after they closed in the mortgage and stay in the home", "the question is the question is if they already qualify you don't need to teach them anything if you're already qualified why a one hundred because they're just a customer you don't need to give them that", "you know what i'm saying this is just a sales marketing pitch or something you know this is about one bank and one real estate agent trying to get a lot of people here and the bank is going to rip you off again", "you know it's just the same thing over and over", "we've heard these stories so much in the but again we're fortunate to have key and prudential be the point persons on this", "it is not exclusive to any bank or any real estate firm", "the city stands ready willing able to work with other realty agencies and other banks", "and we have ongoing discussions with banks realtors to expand and build on this programme", "and that you're trying to cast negative aspersions on what is a good programme", "it's an incentive that makes schenectady more competitive in this market", "and i'm proud to stand here and have key as a partner today", "yes ma'am yes", "i think i just want to say you know i'm not sure i'm not sure what the question is over here", "however i just feel that the situation has to be a twopart thing", "and as the bank takes you through these steps as the consumer you have to advocate yourself and ask the questions and find out where you're going to be with this before you sign", "which means if you don't understand something you have to ask", "i think we're so complacent and we sit back and want the bank to figure everything off for us then you know what we need to be proactive", "and going back to what you're saying i think it's a twofold thing", "if you come in here trying to get home and it doesn't add up and you feel you can't do it then you have to say look i can't do it that's exactly correct", "we don't want people to be in homes that they cannot afford", "but it's it's an opp one of the key things to this financing programme again is the ongoing education programme so that people learn to manage money better learn to look at other opportunities for retirement investments and other things and it becomes the total financial package", "and so again i'm proud to have keybank as a partner in this undertaking", "other questions or should we yes sir is there any incentive for first time home buyers i mean any literature on that there are some in some of the package and mr mike yousefi who's right here can also talk to individuals on specific questions that they might have", "want to thank everybody for coming today and appreciate your time consideration", "and if you have questions comments you have a staff here and we'll be available throughout the day thank you"], "name": ["keytocity_RT_02_19_2012/keytocity_RT_02_19_2012/Key_to_the_City1_INTRODUCTION_DOT_flac_00000.flac", 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-{"audio_document_id": "king_cotton.flac", "identifier": "king_cotton", "text_document_id": "king_cotton.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [1990, 6340, 8050, 10663, 7200, 7440, 3360, 10507, 2780, 4763, 5460, 7900, 2770, 5630, 6330, 8280, 4400, 9150, 6770, 5830, 7083, 4300, 4803, 11830, 10693, 15640, 6670, 3060, 3900, 6643, 4140, 8910, 11717, 7486, 6370, 3217, 8706, 14810, 7840, 5063, 9290, 4823, 13820, 5310, 10781, 3489, 4660, 4410, 4249, 13651, 2280, 6630, 23053, 12645, 7750, 5023, 9750, 3120, 3300, 2130, 2710, 13462, 5000, 2083, 4181, 4768, 15690, 15163, 13789, 5893, 4227, 7210, 3760, 2880, 2840, 6153, 2087, 2980, 4080, 2121, 7169, 9480, 13830, 7300, 10183, 2100, 28119, 44661, 2850, 6600, 2848, 13625, 9800, 25593, 2418, 33566, 9414, 9693, 10030, 24583], "label": ["cotton is king", "but there was a day when few people believed that cotton would have as many uses as it does in today's world", "cotton has been known for many hundreds of years but it was not usable on a large scale until the beginning of the 19th century", "in one thousand seven hundred and eighty one a new england farm boy named eli whitney was beginning to make a name for himself as a manufacturer of hatpins for ladies bonnets", "a few years later young eli set his fingers to a harder task getting the seeds out of cotton", "for thousands of years the only way to separate cotton seeds from cotton fibers had been to pull out the seeds by hand", "a slow costly tedious task", "in ten days whitney developed a model of a machine that was to revolutionize the cotton industry the cotton gin was a simple device but it took the seeds out of cotton", "and that was what the south had been waiting for", "some of the southern states voted whitney a royalty for his invention", "but he had to spend most of his money to defend his rights and marketing the new cotton gin", "those who had started to immigrate from the south in search of a better opportunity learned of the new machine and took new hope", "the value of cotton land troubled overnight", "all over the world the impact of this simple invention was felt almost immediately", "eli whitney put together a few boards and rollers and gave the world a giant industry", "cotton was king never before had anyone removed seeds from cotton so quickly and easily and surely", "never had anyone dreamed that a machine could do so much", "here was an invention that did in a few minutes the work that took a pioneer's family a whole evening to do by hand as they sat around the fire", "here in a small wooden box was all that was needed to demonstrate the value of cotton as a world crop", "the principles employed and whitney's first machine have been retained in the modern cotton gin", "inside the gin the cotton falls through the hopper and hits a grid where it comes into the path of revolving teeth", "the teeth grab the fibers and pull them through the narrow openings of the grid", "the seeds are larger than the openings they can't pass through they fall to the floor", "the fibers are swept off the revolving saw teeth and out of the gin the modern gin seems much different certainly much larger than the experimental gins of whitney's day", "but the real difference lies not in the principal used to take out the seeds but in the fact that new machinery has been added to clean the cotton and carry a large amount of cotton through the gin", "it is here in the generator that all the work in the cotton fields comes to a focus all the time and labor extended by the southern cotton farmer reaches its climax in the two great products of the cotton world cotton fibers and cotton seeds", "the valuable seeds emerged from the gin fall into a trough and are drawn away by suction", "the seeds are still not entirely free from cotton", "they're covered with a light fuzz known as cotton linters", "linters removed from the seeds in the later operation are used in many basic cotton products of great importance", "the seeds are likewise store houses of the wealth of the south", "each year brings new uses cotton seeds for various oils for tar phonograph records cosmetics and foods", "today more than three score products are made from cotton seed so that the cotton can be handled conveniently it must be made more compact and tied into a package or bale", "as the gin cotton collects it is mechanically packed until enough has accumulated to make a five hundred pound pack", "the heavy pressure which is then applied produces good bales that are compact and uniform in size", "almost completely covered with sturdy bagging", "ironed bans wrapped tightly around the bale make sure king cotton can travel securely if need be to the ends of the earth", "on the cotton plantations today modern science and modern farm machinery play an important part work that formerly required days or weeks of sweating toil is now handled with ease and efficiency in a very short time", "early in the year plause drawn by light but powerful modern tractors break the soil to a depth of three to eight inches", "preparing acres of land quickly and easily for the good crops of cotton to come", "after the danger of frost is over and the land has been warmed by the spring sun up to the minute multiple row planning machines moved swiftly over the fields", "a far cry from the once common and laborious method of dropping the seed by hand", "all through the growing season modern cultivators roll through the fields of cotton plants destroying weeds and grass loosening the soil to let in air allowing water to penetrate to the roots of the growing plants", "today's science as well as modern engineering has entered the cotton industry", "and along with science come the trained men of modern agriculture men who have studied cotton for years in the laboratory in state experimental stations and in the field", "these experts know the characteristics of the climate", "and the many kinds of cotton growing soil in the vast region of the south", "they know the peculiarities of the numerous varieties of cotton plants", "they have found new fertilizers that get better yields from average lands", "new ways for farmers to grow better quality cotton with longer tougher fibers scientific research in all these fields goes hand in hand with the big job of protecting cotton from its enemies", "from diseases of the cotton plant", "from dreaded insect pests foremost among the ravaging insects is the mexican boll weevil", "which first crossed the rio grande into texas in one thousand eight hundred and ninety two and has since spread over nearly all of the american cotton belt if not controlled the boll weevil can wipe out millions of acres of cotton in a single year controlling the spread of this insect by dusting fields from the air is the most spectacular and frequently the most successful method", "before the plants are fully developed just as soon as the weevil begins to appear on the squares or brackets that protect the immature flower the modern farmer enlists the aid of the most modern methods in his attack", "in a matter of minutes the dust poisonous to the boll weevil spreads in long white plumes over acres of cotton", "the uptodate way of finding this most stubborn invader of king cotton's domain", "as a result of careful and scientific cotton farming today the united states supplies the world with almost one half of all the cotton it consumes", "from thousands of fields come millions of bales", "the product of hundreds of thousands of men", "product of the soil of the south", "product of science and american invention", "product of america in the fall of each year the coasts of the atlantic and the pacific on the gulf of mexico on the banks of the mississippi king cotton starts it's journey to the ports of the world", "king cotton ruler of the huge industry at home and abroad", "cotton for the spindles of the world", "world progress calls to cotton for textiles cotton for clothing cotton for fabrics", "yes but for more than that much more", "the world calls for cotton for many unseen uses in virtually every industry surprising for instance is the tremendously important role that cotton plays in the manufacture of tires for modern automobiles", "everybody thinks of them as rubber tires but it would be just as correct if these nomadic cushions were called cotton tires or actually fifty of all the material that goes into the making of an automobile tire is cotton", "long before the tire assumes it's familiar shape yard upon yard of tough cotton fibers have been spun and twisted into cords then woven and distilled tougher fabrics fabrics that ensure a long life and resistance to wear", "compounded rubber heated to just the exact temperature is then blended with the cotton fabric", "coding yet until together the materials form a kind of rubberized cloth", "this exacting operation where in cotton and rubber each become part of a new fabric is called calendaring", "and the materials are prepared with the greatest precision", "rubber compounds and cotton", "and the tire begins to take form", "on the building drum great care is taken to ensure the exact position of the cords and the rubberized fabric", "it is cut on the bias to give greater strength", "then another layer another apply", "but at this time the cords must be at right angles to the first layer", "so again it is cut on the bias", "thus additional reinforcement unseen protection is built into the tire with cotton", "after several layers have been carefully placed the pliers are trimmed and molded under the watchful eyes and skilled hands of men who are masters at their trade", "the raw tire expertly constructed is next placed in a steel mold that not only gives it the tread design but a complete curing as well under terrific heat and tremendous pressure balkanization takes place", "the tire is toughing to a final degree indifferent now to heat to cold to all the elements", "it has emerged ready to take its place to play its important part of furnishing comfort on the wheels of a modern motor car rubber compounds cotton", "again cotton for comfort", "this time for comfort inside the motor car layer upon layer of thick fluffy cotton blankets are formed into deep soft paddings for the luxurious league comfortable seats king cotton modern science has developed hundreds of new uses for cotton within the past few years for instance when scientifically treated with special gases and liquids cotton can be transformed into beautiful durable and valuable plastics today", "plastics made from cotton are used to make the sparkling striking interior appointments in the uptodate automobile plastics for the steering wheel horn button the gear ship controlled beauty to be sure but a very practical beauty a handsome gift of cotton cotton makes still another valuable contribution to appearance and the motoring age again through the magic of science of chemistry cotton yields a treasure called cellulose cellulose to form a basic element in modern lacquer a lacquer that is even more weather resistant than the metal it coats and protects the short linters of cotton contained cellulose in its purest form", "first the oil is removed from the cotton linters", "then the fibers are washed mixed with chemicals and stirred stirred and heated heated and cooled", "then mixed again with still more chemicals", "at last the solution is ready to receive the pure rich pigments that are mixed in rotating drums cotton becomes lacquer a beautifully glossy and rugged product built to stand up under every adverse condition", "not many years ago it took six full tejas weeks to apply the twenty two coats of paints and varnishes that were required to properly surface the automobile body", "but here again science science and cotton have united to simplify this by producing lacquer that is faster drying longer lasting smoother harder and more durable and easier to apply with this matchless product of cotton and chemicals skilled workman create the brilliant magnificence that is the protective surface coating for the motor car up today", "here is cotton cotton for splendor", "another of the contributions king cotton makes to the motor industry cotton for the modern motorist cotton in the fabric of the upholstery cotton in the plastic parts cotton and the glossy lighter cotton and the rolling tires comfort luxury and durability cotton but in the great universities and technical laboratories of the south diligence scientists continued to experiment to hunt to search and to research for steel", "new uses for king cotton each day new discoveries are made and yet this is only the beginning science and cotton making possible", "the building of vast new industries challenging the unknown discovering making revolutionary improvements in the working and living conditions of our day", "approximately fifty pounds of cotton in various forms are used in creating the modern motorcar cotton for beauty comfort and durability", "today cotton serves mankind's retail markets in more than ten thousand different forms cotton for fountain pens and steering wheels cotton for fishing tackle them tires cotton for artificial sponges cotton for shoes cotton for lockers cotton for airplanes caught worthy to be called king truly a service of mankind"], "name": ["king_cotton/king_cotton/king_cotton_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "king_cotton/king_cotton/king_cotton_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "king_cotton/king_cotton/king_cotton_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "king_cotton/king_cotton/king_cotton_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "king_cotton/king_cotton/king_cotton_DOT_flac_00004.flac", "king_cotton/king_cotton/king_cotton_DOT_flac_00005.flac", "king_cotton/king_cotton/king_cotton_DOT_flac_00006.flac", "king_cotton/king_cotton/king_cotton_DOT_flac_00007.flac", "king_cotton/king_cotton/king_cotton_DOT_flac_00008.flac", "king_cotton/king_cotton/king_cotton_DOT_flac_00009.flac", "king_cotton/king_cotton/king_cotton_DOT_flac_00010.flac", 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gather here as representatives of our congress", "please extend to them your mercy and your grace remind them that you love them", "your scripture tells us as iron sharpens iron so one person sharpens another", "may these your people sharpen one another today as their ideologies clash together as one philosophy grates against another philosophy different than their own", "help them to see this diversity not as tearing for these are not people of sheer fabric", "for they've been forged stronger by the rigors of politics and public scrutiny but help them see this clashing and grating as an opportunity to sharpen thought to cut through rhetoric and to pierce conscience for the benefit of humanity", "may their actions and decisions of today not become future apologies but may they be a statement of this congress's character their firm resolve and a hope for a better america", "amen amen", "the chair has examined the journal of last day's proceedings and announces to the house her approval thereof", "pursuant to clause one of rule one the journal stands approved", "the pledge of allegiance will be led by the gentleman from new jersey congressmen sires", "would you all join me please i pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands one nation under god indivisible with liberty and justice for all", "please be seated", "the chair will receive a message", "madam speaker a message from the senate", "madam speaker", "madam secretary", "i have been directed by the senate to inform the house that the senate has passed without amendment hr three thousand five hundred and forty one cited as as the do not call improvement act of two thousand and seven", "thank you thank you", "without objection the gentlewoman from kansas congresswoman boyda is recognized for one minute", "thank you madam speaker", "reverend wes davis left the beaches of california in the early 1990s to pastor a small church in kansas in the town of riverton", "he helped to construct the building that is the riverton friends church in cherokee county and he helped to grow the congregation from about one hundred to nearly four hundred people", "he did this while sharing his knowledge and faith from around the world from haiti to liberia to hungary", "and in addition to being pastor family man and missionary pastor davis is the executive director of stoa ministries", "stoa in greek means porch", "in solomon's day people gathered on the area porches to discuss theology and their faith", "wes davis is a man of faith who has made the world his porch always striving to help others learn god's grace", "pastor wes davis thank you for expanding your porch to the halls of congress today", "thank you", "the chair will entertain up to fifteen oneminutes on each side", "without objection the gentleman from oregon is recognized", "thank you madam speaker", "for the first time in american history the highway trust fund is running a deficit this year", "what's the solution for this administration well instead of having a comprehensive approach to deal with this shortfall they just want to steal some money from the mass transit administration account and walk away", "this will only delay the problem for one year and it will push mass transit into deficit the next year instead of a practical solution to fix the looming highway trust fund crisis", "this is consistent with their consistent underinvestment in our nation's infrastructure", "it's why the american society of civil engineers has rated our infrastructure a dminus and it will cost us sixteen trillion over the next five years to repair water sewer and transportation infrastructure a crisis not just for the federal government but even worse for state and local governments", "a hundred years ago teddy roosevelt had a vision for a national conference to develop a plan to deal with the nation's infrastructure", "it's time for this congress to revisit that concept maybe have a transportation vision for this century", "gentleman's time has expired", "for what purpose does the gentleman from pennsylvania rise address the house for one minute", "without objection thank you mr speaker", "on friday december 14th two thousand and seven the varsity football team from thomas jefferson high school in jefferson hills pennsylvania won the class aaa state football championships clenching the jaguar's second title in four years", "with a final score of twenty eight to three the jaguars finished a perfect season", "coach bill cherpak became just the third head coach in western pennsylvania history to achieve a perfect win record in more than one appearance in the state championship game in hershey", "thomas jefferson high school in the west jefferson hills school district also excels in academics ranking in the top twenty of pennsylvania's five hundred and one school districts", "congratulations to coach bill cherpak the thomas jefferson high school jaguars for being champions on the field and champions in the classroom", "i yield back", "gentleman yields back the balance at this time", "for what purpose does the gentleman from california rise to address the house for one minute", "without objection", "mr speaker our national budget should invest in our future", "unfortunately the president's final budget is more of the same missed opportunities and misplaced priorities", "the president's budget is fiscally reckless adding sixteen trillion in deficit over the next five years instead of becoming balanced over that same period", "but you won't hear that from the president", "he claims that the budget is balanced by two thousand and twelve but that's only because he leaves out enormous costs including the fiveyear cost of fixing the alternative minimum tax and the full cost of the iraq war", "when realistic costs are included the budget runs into significant deficits over each of the next five years", "this unfortunately is more of the same", "the president took a 10year fifty six trillion of surplus that he inherited and turned it into a thirty six trillion deficit", "the budget continues down the same path by borrowing from our children and our grandchildren", "mr speaker democrats can simply not afford this fiscal recklessness", "in the coming months we will present a fiscally responsible budget that meets our payasgo requirements", "what purpose does the gentleman from texas rise request permission to address the house for one minute", "without objection", "mr speaker the border war with mexico continues", "on the mexican side of the border mexican nationals hide on rocky hills and throw rocks at american border agents", "these assaults have continued to increase and escalate to the point that border patrol recently acted in selfdefense and fired tear gas at the unruly mobs", "you see these are the same mexican nationals that later will illegally sneak into america when the border patrol isn't watching", "after the most recent tear gas episode the mexican government sent a selfrighteous statement to the united states that said even though these incidences are a response to hostile acts against border patrol agents by mexican citizens the actions by us authorities are unacceptable the mexican government seems to arrogantly support its rockthrowing nationals but doesn't want americans to defend themselves", "mexico needs to get its lawless house in order and control the disorderly mobs that lurk on the border", "united states should use every tool available to protect our borders from invaders rock throwers and drug smugglers", "and if mexico cries tears about it too bad", "and that's just the way it is", "gentleman's time has expired", "for what purpose does the gentleman from iowa rise address the house for one minute", "without objection", "mr speaker this week the president unveiled his final budget proposal and like previous budgets it fails to properly address the needs and concerns that are central to the everyday lives of our constituents", "perhaps most troubling is the fact that the bush budget continues the president's legacy of fiscal irresponsibility and leaves behind a four hundred and seven billion deficit", "the five largest deficits in american history have all occurred on the president's watch", "when president bush took office the debt stood at fifty seven trillion and it's projected to stand at ninety seven trillion by the time president bush leaves office", "this fiscal record ties the hands of the next generation which faces growing obligations with increasingly limited resources", "the bush budget also hurts americans struggling to make ends by cutting medicare and medicaid and the low income home energy assistance program", "his budget also hurts our longterm efforts to prepare americans for better jobs in the global marketplace by slashing important education and literacy programs", "mr speaker the american people do not want more of the same", "this democratic congress will propose a budget alternative that takes america in a new direction", "gentleman's time has expired", "for what purpose does the gentleman from south carolina rise to simply address the house for one minute", "without objection", "mr speaker today i want to honor an individual who has a rich background in managing healthcare services and agencies within the state of south carolina", "his experience in education and healthcare has placed him throughout locations in the south affiliating him with dozens of communities and civic organizations", "as february recognizes black history month i honor dr joseph patton who has continuously reached out to provide knowledge support and service to benefit those in the community", "a native of spartanburg south carolina dr patton is an ordained elder in the presbyterian church and holds an honorary doctorate degree for his services to the church and community", "along with his service to his region dr patton has served overseas is a veteran of the united states army and is currently a member of the american legion and the veterans of foreign wars", "during black history month i give recognition to dr patton for serving as an educated leader of health for being wellknown as a caring husband father grandfather and mentor to those in the community", "gentleman yields back the balance of his time", "for what purpose does the gentleman from new jersey rise without objection", "mr speaker when democrats do control a congress last year we vowed to work on behalf of all americans", "last year we recognized that middle class families were struggling to make ends meet", "and so we work hard to ease that economic crunch", "we passed billions of dollars in tax relief to middleclass income families", "we increased the minimum wage for the first time in a decade and we enacted an energy bill that will save the average family anywhere between seven hundred and one thousand a year in energy cost and help families better afford college", "this was a good start but economic indicators continue to head in the wrong direction", "we work with the white house and house republicans on an economic stimulus package that will provide a real and significant shortterm boost to this economy", "the house bipartisan economic stimulus plan is the most progressive package this decade", "it will help jumpstart our economy and will provide real assistance to lower and middleincome families", "i hope our friends in the senate will enact this legislation this week", "gentleman yields back the balance of his time", "for what purpose does the gentleman from south carolina rise mr speaker i ask permission to address the house for one minute revising remarks", "without objection", "mr speaker the city of berkeley california recently disgraced itself by referring to brave marines with slander when the city council voted to tell the marine corps to close its recruiting station", "as a veteran as the soninlaw of a veteran and as the father of four sons in the military i know firsthand of the education and opportunities provided by military service while promoting freedom", "in response to berkeley congressman john campbell has introduced legislation that would remove two million in secret earmarks for the city of berkeley and instead send the money to the marines", "while i believe wholeheartedly in free speech we owe respect to the very people who are sacrificing so much to defend our freedoms", "i invite the berkeley city council to visit buford south carolina home of parris island the naval hospital and the marine corps air station to see how our patriotic community supports the brave men and women who serve as proud marines", "in conclusion god bless our troops and the united states marine corps and we will never forget september the 11th", "gentleman yields back the balance of his time", "for what purpose does the gentleman from minnesota rise to address the house for one minute", "without objection", "thank you mr speaker", "we're here today talking about the recent unveiling of the president's budget", "i think we should give the president credit", "at least he's consistent", "like all of his previous budgets this one does several things", "it leaves most americans behind and puts this nation further in debt", "at a time of a slowing economy and americans increasingly struggling to make ends meet the president focuses on one trillion in tax breaks to the top one of americans", "while the wealthiest few continue to prosper under the president the president cuts vital energy education and healthcare investments", "at a time of rising energy costs the president slashes lowincome energy assistance programs", "at a time of college costs skyrocketing the budget eliminates nearly one billion in grant programs", "at a time of rising healthcare costs the president proposes devastating medicare and medicaid that would reduce affordable access to healthcare for our seniors", "the one good thing that people know is the winds of change have been blowing", "this democratic congress will restore these and put the priorities of american people first", "and i yield back gentleman yields back the balance of his time", "for what purpose does the gentleman from minnesota rise to address the house for one minute", "without objection", "mr speaker at a time when more and more americans are struggling to obtain affordable healthcare the president's budget drastically slashes healthcare for seniors and lowincome working americans", "today thirty six million seniors get healthcare coverage through medicare", "the president's budget takes a swipe at their pocketbooks by proposing to save nearly six billion by increasing the monthly premiums that seniors pay", "if the president was concerned about seniors he would instead go after the vast overpayments made by medicare to private managed care plans", "instead he has raised premiums on our seniors and focused his cuts on our nation's hospitals skilled nursing facilities and other healthcare providers", "the president also cuts medicaid by thirty three billion over the next five years", "today medicaid serves fifty five million lowincome and disabled americans", "such cuts would force cashstrapped states to either reduce benefits or cut provider payments", "mr speaker as our economy continues to face uncertain times this is the worst time the president to promote drastic cuts in medicare and medicaid", "rest assured the democrats would not allow these cuts to become law", "these provisions are as good as dead as they come to capitol hill", "time has expired for what purpose does the gentleman from florida rise to address the house for one minute", "without objection", "thank you mr speaker", "mr speaker our economy is in trouble and millions of hardworking american families are feeling the impact as we speak", "since two thousand and one the real income of a typical working family has fallen by two thousand five hundred and workers wages have failed to keep up with the inflation for the fourth time in the past five years", "in december the unemployment rate shot up to a twoyear high of five with over nine hundred thousand more americans looking for work over the same period last year", "stagnant wages are not only forcing families to squeeze more out of every dollar but is also taking a toll on our overall economy", "retailers suffered their worst december shopping season in five years and consumer confidence fell this month to its lowest point on record", "last week the house approved a bipartisan economic package that will provide urgent relief to one hundred and seventeen million americans", "this is a fair economic package that gets money to the workers the people who need it the most and they're most likely to spend it on necessities like groceries and gas", "economists estimate that each dollar of the rebate will lead to one hundred and twenty six in economic growth", "mr speaker economists also say we have to act fast", "that's exactly what this house did and i hope the senate joins us thank you very much", "gentleman's time has expired", "for what purpose does the gentleman from texas rise to address the house for one minute", "without objection", "today mr speaker the house will address one of the most important issues in america's future", "that is the opportunity to give young people a chance for a higher education", "hr four thousand one hundred and thirty seven the college opportunity and affordability act does just that", "it is interesting however that the president's budget unfortunately does not recognize that opportunity", "and it is in the business of cutting those opportunities for our young people", "the supplemental education opportunity grants for needy undergraduates is now being cut", "so i hope that on the floor today we'll make a statement to support our schools", "i represent texas southern university a school that has been under siege by its republican state government a school that is historically black and received money from the past administration in desegregation settlement but yet even today it is not receiving the funding that it should receive from the state of texas", "i'll be introducing legislation that will assure that historically black colleges hispanicserving colleges cannot be undermined by state government funding when they come under the supervision of the department of education", "our bill is a good bill it's a step forward", "mr president i hope that you will recognize that we cannot cut the opportunities of young people", "i yield back gentlewoman's time has expired for what purpose does the gentleman from kentucky rise i ask permission to address the house for one minute", "without objection", "mr speaker last week this house came together in a bipartisan fashion to address the economic uncertainty that many of our citizens are facing", "president bush worked with both democratic and republican leaders of the house to develop an economic stimulus package that is timely targeted and temporary", "that plan which was passed here in the house last week will help jumpstart our economy by putting tax rebates in the hands of one hundred and seventeen million hardworking middle and lowerincome workers", "we should be proud of the bipartisanship that made this compromise package possible", "i would hope that we could bring that same bipartisanship to bear on the continuing war in iraq", "last month the iraqi defense minister said that his country will not be able to take full control of its security until two thousand and twelve and will not be able to defend its borders from outside threats until at least two thousand and eighteen", "democrats do not believe that american troops should be on the ground in iraq for another decade and neither do the american people", "the status quo can not continue", "i would hope that we could continue to work together to bring this war to an end i yield back", "gentleman yields back the balance of his time", "for what purpose does the gentleman from illinois rise to talk for one minute", "without objection", "mr speaker i come to the floor today to speak about an issue that is very close to my heart personally as a father as an american and as a member of congress", "there is a plague across this nation that has taken the lives of hundreds of thousands of american citizens and it is disturbing and upsetting that there is no public outcry over the destruction that it leaves in its path", "the plague is urban violence", "mr speaker over the christmas break i was shocked by a piece of news that i saw on nightline which detailed how medics who are sent to iraq are honing their skills by working in urban hospitals attending to gunshot victims", "the documentary went on to say that over seventy five african american and latino males are killed in our inner cities on a daily basis", "over seventy five latinos and american males are killed on a daily basis in american streets a number of that dwarfs the number of fatalities iraqi and american that are suffered in the war zone", "mr speaker we must break the silence and stop this violence it's past time to stop the killing stop the violence", "and i yield back to gentleman's time has expired for what purpose does the gentleman from new jersey rise to address the house", "without objection", "mr speaker one of the best ways to expand prosperity for more americans is to make college more affordable", "today an education at a private university is close to fifty thousand a year and things aren't much better at public universities where prices have shot up forty above inflation in the last seven years alone", "this democratic congress has worked to eliminate some of the sticker shock", "last year we passed the college cost reduction act of two thousand and seven which was the singlelargest increase in college aid since the gi bill", "but we're not done", "today we'll vote on the college opportunity and affordability act which will make college more affordable and accessible", "the bill encourages colleges to rein in price increases and provides consumers with helpful information so they can make the best decisions on which school to choose", "the legislation also simplifies the federal student aid application process expands college access and support for low income and minority students and increases aid for our veterans and military families", "mr speaker let's continue to strengthen our nation's future by passing the college opportunity and affordability act today", "gentleman's time has expired", "for what purpose does the gentlewoman from ohio rise mr speaker by direction of the committee on rules i call up house resolution nine hundred and fifty six and ask for its immediate consideration", "the clerk will report the resolution", "house calendar number one hundred and eighty five house resolution nine hundred and fifty six resolved that at any time after the adoption of this resolution speaker may pursuant to clause 2b of rule eighteen declare the house resolved into the committee of the whole house on the state of the union for consideration of the bill hr four thousand one hundred and thirty seven to amend and extend the higher education act of one thousand nine hundred and sixty five and for other purposes", "the first reading of the bill shall be dispensed with", "all points of order against consideration of the bill are waived except those arising under clause nine or ten of rule twenty one", "general debate shall be confined to the bill and shall not exceed one hour equally divided and controlled by the chairman and ranking minority member of the committee on education and labor", "after general debate the bill shall be considered for amendment under the fiveminute rule", "section 2a it shall be in order to consider as an original bill for the purpose of amendment under the fiveminute rule the amendment and the nature of a substitute recommended by the committee on education and labor now printed in the bill", "the committee amendment in the nature of a substitute shall be considered as read", "all points of order against the committee amendment in the nature of a substitute are waived except those arising under clause ten of rule twenty one", "b not withstanding clause eleven of rule eighteen no amendment to the committee amendment in the nature of a substitute shall be in order except those printed in the report of the committee on rules accompanying this resolution and amendments on block described in section three of this resolution", "c each amendment printed in the report of the committee on rules shall be considered only in the order printed in the report may be offered only by a member designated in the report shall be considered as read shall be debatable for the time specified in the report equally divided and controlled by the proponent and an opponent shall not be subject to amendment and shall not be subject to a demand for division of the question in the house or in the committee of the whole", "d all points of order against amendments printed in the report of the committee on rules or amendments on block described in section three of this resolution are waived except those arising under clause nine or ten of rule twenty one", "section three it shall be an order at any time for the chairman of the committee on education and labor or his designee to offer amendments on block consisting of amendments printed in the report of the committee on rules not earlier disposed of", "amendments on block offered pursuant to this section shall be considered as read shall be debatable for ten minutes equally divided in control by the chairman and ranking minority member of the committee on education and labor or their designees shall not be subject to amendment and shall not be subject to a demand for division of the question in the house or in the committee of the whole", "the original proponent of an amendment included in such amendments on block may insert a statement into congressional record immediately before the disposition of any amendments on block", "section four at the conclusion of consideration of the bill for amendment the committee shall rise and report the bill to the house with such amendments as may have been adopted", "any member may demand a separate vote in the house on any amendment adopted in the committee of the whole to the bill or to the committee amendment in the nature of a substitute", "their previous question shall be considered as ordered on the bill and amendments thereto to final passage without intervening motion except one motion to recommit with or without instructions", "section five during consideration in the house of hr four thousand one hundred and thirty seven pursuant to this resolution not withstanding the operation of the previous question the chair may postpone further consideration of the bill to such time as may be designated by the speaker", "section six house resolution nine hundred and forty one is laid upon the table", "the gentlewoman from ohio is recognized for one hour", "thank you mr speaker", "for the purpose of debate only i yield the customary thirty minutes to the gentleman from washington mr hastings", "all time yielded during consideration of the rule is for debate only", "i yield myself such time as i may consume", "i also ask unanimous consent that all members be given five legislative days in which to revise and extend their remarks on house resolution nine hundred and fifty six", "without objection", "mr speaker house resolution nine hundred and fifty six provides for consideration of hr four thousand one hundred and thirty seven the college opportunity and affordability act of two thousand and seven under a structured rule", "the rule provides one hour of general debate controlled by the committee on education and labor", "the rule makes an order the education and labor committee reported substitute as an original bill for the purpose of amendment", "the rule makes an order the twenty seven amendments listed in the rules committee report each of which is debatable for ten minutes except the miller's manager's amendment which is debatable for twenty minutes", "mr speaker last year congress passed the college cost reduction act to increase college financial aid by eighteen billion the singlelargest increase in aid in over sixty years", "that legislation significantly increased the maximum amount that pell grant recipients can receive at no new cost to taxpayers and was a strong start to this congress's efforts to make higher education a reality for america's students", "but that mr speaker was just the beginning", "i'm proud to rise today in strong support of hr four thousand one hundred and thirty seven the college opportunity and affordability act", "this will continue our efforts to make college more affordable and more accessible for america's students while making investments in critical areas to strengthen our workforce", "our nation is blessed to have the finest system of higher education in the world", "there is a breadth of opportunities available to our graduating high school seniors vocational and technical schools two and fouryear colleges and graduate and professional schools", "mr speaker the challenge we face today is to ensure that our institutions of higher education are accessible to all and the legislation we are passing today will make it easier for low income and middle class families to achieve the benefits of higher education as they climb up the ladder of success", "and investing in our students not only improves their future but it helps our economy and strengthens our competitive edge in the global marketplace", "this bill continues this congress's efforts to strengthen america's workforce by creating programs to improve teacher training and bolster student interest in science math and technology", "we must also recognize and applaud our nontraditional students those members of our workforce who are seizing the opportunity to continue their education while holding down fulltime jobs and sometimes raising families", "these students are often attending school less than half time and thus they sometimes benefit very little from traditional student aid", "that's why i support my colleague congressman baird's amendment which i hope will be incorporated into this bill to require the secretary of education to study and recommend how best to design a loan program targeted at lessthanhalftime students", "one of the keys to expanding access to our institutions of higher learning is to bring down the exorbitant cost of attending college", "tuition hikes in recent years have been stunning amounting to a thirty one increase at a fouryear public college in the last five years alone", "this bill enhances transparency in college tuition by requiring colleges to report the reasons for tuition hikes and the plans they have for lowering costs", "it also requires the secretary of education to publish a higher education price index providing students with the opportunity to compare institutions by state sector and change in tuition and fees from one year to the next", "this will allow students to make wiser decisions in choosing institutions that are a good fit for them and the dreams to which they aspire", "a more immediate way to make the possibility of attaining a college degree a reality is to increase the aid available to our students", "and i am proud that this bill does that doubling the maximum pell grant amount to nine thousand", "and beyond the sticker price of tuition any student will tell you that the cost of textbooks is also a challenging cost they incur", "the average student spends about one thousand per year on textbooks which is nearly twenty of tuition and fees at a fouryear public institution", "such high costs for textbooks can be the deciding factor which dashes or delays the dream of obtaining a college degree and a better life for many", "this legislation requires publishers to provide specific information about pricing so that faculty has all full information when making purchasing decisions so students can help plan for expenses", "and in addition mr speaker i am proud to support an amendment offered by my colleague from ohio congressman tim ryan along with representative jason altmeyer which will create a pilot grant program to assist colleges in setting up textbook rental programs", "these programs already exist in twenty five schools and a pilot test at bowling green state university in ohio last spring saved one hundred and fifty one students eleven thousand", "we must also continue to strive to reduce the achievement gap in higher education between low income and minority students and their peers", "we can do this by ensuring that all students are prepared for the rigorous demands of higher learning", "this bill strengthens the proven trio and gear up college readiness and support programs for low income and firstgeneration students", "i have seen firsthand mr speaker the great things that these programs can do in elyria in my district which is a gear up site and the university of akron which has received trio funding", "i look forward to the expansion of these proven programs so that more students in ohio and around the country may benefit", "this legislation also addresses the disappointment we saw last year as the student loan scandal unfolded", "those financial aid directors that received kickbacks and payoffs and luxury gifts from private lenders exhibited a spectacular abuse of power and betrayal of the students they serve", "this legislation cracks down on that abuse and restores accountability by requiring institutions and lenders to adopt strict codes of conduct and protect students from aggressive marketing by lenders", "institutions will also be required to provide students with information about federal and private borrowing options", "this bill will also encourage and make it financially feasible for students to become public servants by authorizing up to ten thousand in loan forgiveness for military service members firefighters law enforcement officers first responders nurses educators prosecutors and public defenders", "this bill also continues the work this congress has undertaken to support our troops by creating a new scholarship and support programs for active duty military personnel their family members and veterans", "it also establishes support centers to help veterans succeed in college and ensures fairness in student aid and housing aid for veterans to make it easier for them to go to college while also fulfilling their military service duties", "i am also proud to support an amendment being offered by my colleague congresswoman susan davis that is based on legislation of which i'm a cosponsor", "her amendment will prevent interest from accruing for active duty service members and qualifying national guard members for the duration of their activation up to sixty months when serving in a combat zone", "mr speaker the dream of a college education is moving further and further out of reach for middle and lowincome families", "we need to put this prospect of a college education and a brighter future back in reach", "passing hr four thousand one hundred and thirty seven and building on the work we started last year is an important and priceless investment in the future of our children our communities and our country", "i reserve the balance of my time", "gentlewoman from ohio reserves the balance of her time", "gentleman from washington thank you mr speaker", "mr speaker i want to thank the gentlelady from ohio mrs sutton for yielding me the customary thirty minutes and i yield myself as much time as i may consume and i ask unanimous consent to revise and extend my remarks", "without objection", "thank you mr speaker", "mr speaker i believe that we must do all that we can to make education more affordable so that more americans can achieve the dream of graduating from college", "this year alone over ninety billion in federal financial aid is available to students", "however with tuition costs on the rise students and their families continue to face the inevitable question of how to pay for a college education", "i believe a balanced approach is needed one that increases transparency of higher education costs and targets aid to the neediest students while simplifying the financial aid process and addressing the growing number of burdensome reporting requirements colleges and universities face", "i share the goal of increasing access to higher education but i have a number of concerns with the college opportunity and affordability act", "and i believe improvements to the bill are needed", "and mr speaker apparently members on both sides of the aisle also share this view because over sixty amendments were submitted to the rules committee before the deadline", "the last time that this house considered a comprehensive higher education reauthorization bill was in one thousand nine hundred and ninety eight", "at that time the rules committee reported a modified a modified open rule and as a result all members of the house had an opportunity to preprint their amendments in the congressional record and offer them on the floor", "mr speaker i am disappointed that this time the democratcontrolled rules committee chose a closed process to consider a long overdue reauthorization to the higher education act", "unfortunately by reporting out a closed rule the democrats on the rules committee once again chose to deny over four hundred members of congress the opportunity to offer amendments to improve the bill", "furthermore this rule makes an order five times as many democrat amendments as republican amendments", "by authorizing the higher education act it is important but by adopting this closed rule an opportunity will be missed to make the underlying bill even better", "therefore mr speaker i urge my colleagues to vote against this closed rule and i reserve the balance of my time", "gentleman from washington reserves the balance of his time", "gentlewoman from ohio mr speaker at this time i yield three minutes to the distinguished gentlewoman from florida a member of the rules committee ms castor", "gentlewoman from florida is recognized for three minutes", "i thank my colleague from ohio", "mr speaker i rise today to support the college opportunity and affordability act of two thousand and seven and this rule because we are committed to making the cost of attending college more affordable and accessible", "this is great news for hardworking middleclass families and students across america and students in my hometown which is a college town with thousands and thousands of students enrolled in the community college and at the university of south florida", "you know there is great debate in washington today over the economy and how we are going to provide relief to middle class families", "one of the answers is to address the soaring cost of attending college and keep the doors to a higher education open by making college affordable through grants and lowrate loans", "a college diploma is a critical step towards a higherpaying job and success in life", "and one of the best investments we can make for the future of our great nation is to ensure that the doors to our colleges and universities remain wide open", "in my home state of florida unfortunately we're undergoing a budget crisis and the funding for higher education unfortunately has been targeted for millions and millions of dollars of cuts", "this has resulted in those university and community college doors being kept shut for many students", "one student in my hometown at tampa's jefferson high school is gabby rodriguez", "you know she has a forty three grade point average but because of the budget cuts in the state of florida and the lack of student financial assistance she may have to go to college out of state or put her college dreams on hold entirely", "so the passage of this crucial bill could not come at a better time", "with passage of this bill we will increase needbased aid and make the federal pell grants more available to students", "you know last year the congress battled the bush administration over the ability of firstgeneration students to attend college and work through the upward bound initiative", "well we're focused on better jobs for the future so we will strengthen the upward bound program through this bill today", "we are focused on better jobs for the future so we will provide loan forgiveness for graduates who decide to enter public service careers in areas of national need such as early childhood educators and child welfare workers and firefighters", "we're focused on better jobs for the future so we encourage students interest in math science and technology through this bill", "through the leadership of chairman george miller who is a hero to college students throughout america congressman john tierney the ranking member mr mckeon bobby scott lynn woolsey all of the members of the education and labor committee i salute them and thank them for their leadership because mr speaker this is an important bipartisan milestone for education and i urge my colleagues to support the rule and the bill", "gentlewoman's time has expired", "gentleman from washington thank you mr speaker", "mr speaker i am pleased to yield five minutes to the ranking member of the education and workforce committee mr mckeon", "gentleman from california is recognized for five minutes", "thank you mr speaker", "and i thank the gentleman for yielding", "a decade ago the last time we renewed the higher education act it was debated under an open rule that allowed every member the opportunity for full participation", "on an issue so important to our nation's continued success i would expect nothing less than a full and open debate", "i'm disappointed that the same opportunity was not provided today", "sadly suppressed debate is all we have known under this majority", "i'm also disappointed that misuse of the budget reconciliation process last year has left us with a bill that includes many important reforms but does not provide a full review of the largest financial aid programs", "because the budget reconciliation bill contained drastic and farreaching changes to federal student loans the bill before us pays very little consideration to student lending", "unfortunately circumstances surrounding the loan programs have changed in the last several months and it looks like now is exactly the time when we should be looking at these programs", "we're all painfully aware of the collapse in the subprime mortgage market", "those financial insecurities have spread to higher quality assets including the assetbacked equities that are often used to finance federal and nonfederal student loans", "as we face these market insecurities the full extent of the cuts enacted through last year's budget reconciliation bill are just beginning to be understood", "taken together it appears our federal loan program may be facing a perfect storm", "yet here we are with a comprehensive higher education renewal that does not consider the student loan programs", "i had hoped to offer an amendment today that would acknowledge the challenges facing the loan program", "although my amendment did not call for any immediate changes within the credit markets or the loan program structure a sense of congress urge the secretary of education to closely monitor the student loan marketplace so that if in the near future these market insecurities translate into a loss of loan availability we could act quickly to protect the interests of students", "mr speaker i won't be offering that amendment today", "it was not ruled in order", "somehow a sense of the congress acknowledging the very real challenges facing our nation's largest financial aid program was deemed unfit for consideration", "we also won't be considering an amendment to protect students free right speech on campus or either of two amendments to ensure taxpayers aren't forced to provide assistance under this bill to illegal immigrants", "nor will we take up any of the other republican amendments that were stifled by a heavyhanded majority", "mr speaker we're here to consider a bipartisan bill that i strongly support", "in fact the bill was voted out of committee with a vote of forty five to zero", "yet even a bipartisan college access bill the majority could not bring itself to allow a fair and open debate", "just four of the twenty seven amendments we'll consider today were offered by republicans about fifteen", "for every six minutes we spend debating democrat proposals today the republican ideas will be given sixty seconds", "democrats will claim that's how we ran things when republicans were in charge", "but during this same debate in two thousand and six when we considered comprehensive higher education reform more than a third of the amendments considered on the floor were offered by democrats", "this is not just a problem of amendments being made in order", "republicans were blocked from even submitting amendments just three minutes after the deadline tuesday morning", "key republican proposals were rejected from consideration some thirty hours and fifty seven minutes before the rules committee met", "is this a majority that strictly adheres to deadlines no matter what the circumstances evidently not at least not when they stand to benefit from a little flexibility", "the listing of amendments on the rules committee website was modified at four hundred and thirty nine pm wednesday just twenty one minutes before the committee met", "fully twenty of the democrats amendments were modified or withdrawn after the submission deadline", "i cannot help but ask why are republicans being shut out of a bipartisan bill why is the majority only permitting republican amendments that align with their policy goals is this payback because republicans plan to demand a vote today on earmark reform mr speaker this is an unreasonable rule that taints the bipartisanship of the underlying bill and i strongly oppose it", "i yield back the balance of my time", "gentleman's time has expired gentlewoman from ohio i reserve my time", "gentlewoman from ohio reserves the balance of her time", "gentleman from washington mr speaker i'm pleased to yield three minutes to the gentleman from indiana also a member of the committee", "gentleman from indiana is recognized for three minutes", "thank you i thank my distinguished friend from washington state", "i have a little bit of irony here", "i had an amendment that we fully debated in committee on student free speech and i wanted to offer it today but isn't it ironic that while i was trying to argue for a student bill of rights and free speech that we're not allowed to have free speech and a bill of rights in united states congress", "how in the world when we're having twenty seven amendments and this amendment was overwhelmingly supported by our party we only have out of the twenty seven four that the majority party four from republicans and two of those that republicans oppose", "if we have time for twenty seven amendments why can't we have an amendment for free speech i just don't understand", "i never understood the opposition to amendment but what an insult to the american people that when we want to debate whether there should be a student bill of rights on college campuses which is being adopted and introduced in many places around the country that the united states congress can't even debate on the house floor a free speech amendment and protection for speech in colleges", "this is an outrage an embarrassment and a humiliation to the rules committee", "why twenty seven amendments but not one on the student bill of rights could it be that it's a difficult vote david horowitz and i'd ask consent to insert in the record an article in defense of intellectual diversity and objection that has been a champion of this problem", "now we had a very interesting debate in committee", "the chairman of the committee said that some of these students who have been complaining should grow up and cited a case of where he struggled", "and certainly when i was in college in the late 60s and early 70s and wore a button i'm proud to be a square when most of america wasn't proud to be a square that i certainly had my share of debates my share of harassment my share of being yelled down trying to offer a different view than the lemming view that was popular in the late 60s", "and some of that goes with being in a college campus", "but there are examples all over this country where intellectual diversity intellectual alternatives are being stymied in the academia", "this amendment would try to protect those rights", "some of it's from the far left a lot of it's on the conservative side right now", "in fact next tuesday ben stein has a movie coming out expelled no intelligence allowed that will debut about one of those debates in science where there is an effort to stamp it out", "and particularly when you get into government economics sociology philosophy and so on increasingly there's a rigidity", "and if you disagree you are harassed your grades can be altered your papers can be given back to you and alternative speakers are shouted down and yes there are nominal processes to do it", "but if there are nominal processes to do it what is wrong this amendment says for example individual colleges and universities have different missions and each institution should design its academic program in accordance", "within the context of institutional mission a college should promote intellectual pluralism and facilitate free and open exchange of ideas well that's", "will the gentleman yield an additional minute i yield one additional minute", "gentleman's recognized for one additional minute", "that's not very controversial", "students d students should not be intimidated harassed discouraged from speaking out discriminated against or subject to official sanction because of their personal political ideological or religious beliefs isn't that a terrible risky difficult vote students should be treated equally and fairly including evaluation and grading without regard to or consideration of their personal political views or ideological beliefs that's just awful", "how could we vote on that in the united states congress to say there'd be no persecution there's no whereas clauses here", "there's nothing in here that says campuses are liberal campuses are conservative", "we don't have anywhere as clauses that are insulting in here", "there's nothing in here that's partisan", "i just read you the guts of the bill", "why can't we vote on this why is this opposed why is it opposed so much that we're not even allowed to debate it on the floor of congress how can we say in a higher education bill that we believe in inquiry that we believe in searching for knowledge but when we had an amendment to protect students who might have a difference of opinion that we wouldn't even allow a vote", "yield back time has expired", "gentlewoman from ohio", "thank you mr speaker", "i'd like to take this opportunity to refresh the memory of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle on past rules", "the last time the higher education reauthorization bill was considered in the house was just two years ago in the 109th congress", "it too was done under a structured amendment process using two rules", "those two structured rules allowed a total of twenty two amendments out of the one hundred and thirteen submitted fewer than the rule we are offering today", "this is a very fair rule and i urge my colleagues to support it and the bill", "the rule makes an order twenty seven amendments on a wide variety of important issues relating to the higher education of our nation's youth and others seeking a postsecondary education", "members on both sides of the aisle will be able to offer amendments that they believe will further improve this already very bipartisan bill", "this bill is one of the most bipartisan products of the 110th congress reported from the education and labor committee by a vote of forty five to zero", "there is no arguing with those facts", "and mr speaker the benefits of higher education are undeniable for students their families and for our country and society at large", "as a nation we recognize this having always been a global standardbearer in our high regard for the merits of higher education", "reaching the american dream of leading a secure and fulfilling life is a goal that we can make achievable when we open the doors of college to all", "the fact that this bill passed forty five to zero out of the education committee is a testament to the great work that the committee has done on this bill and to the fact that we care tremendously about the future of our children", "listening to parents from my district mr speaker and across the country i hear about how the ability to send their children to college weighs on their minds", "and talking to professors counselors and administrators at the university of akron lorain county community college and other schools across ohio i also know that student debt is a tremendous factor in determining which professions our students are choosing to enter", "nearly twenty three of all students at fouryear colleges nationwide graduate with loan debt these days with the average amount of debt surpassing fifteen thousand", "this bill we're passing goes a long way to changing that distressing fact", "by increasing aid and encouraging colleges to rein in tuition this legislation will enable more students to pursue their passions and give back in service to their communities and our country", "i am proud that this bill continues the work of this newdirection congress in making necessary improvements for the workforce of tomorrow", "we have seen the necessity of investing in stem education and this legislation continues the effort we began last year in passing the innovation agenda by improving teacher training and development programs and focusing on recruiting teachers into highdemand science and technology fields", "in today's global economy it's essential that america's workforce remain competitive at an international level", "mr speaker the higher education act has not been reauthorized in a decade", "the senate has already passed a reauthorization so we must act expediently to pass this vital bill so the president may sign it into law", "i hope that my colleagues on both sides of the aisle will join me in voting for this bill and supporting a brighter future for our students our families and our communities", "and i reserve the balance of my time", "gentlewoman from ohio reserves the balance of her time", "gentleman from washington thank you mr speaker", "before i yield to my friend from utah the gentlelady made the point in her initial remarks when she was talking about reauthorization two years ago", "it was done in a bipartisan way and it was done successfully", "but we know that this process already has some that the administration already has some problems with it", "while they haven't issued a veto threat they have some concerns", "and with that mr speaker i want to yield three minutes to the gentleman from utah mr bishop a member of the committee", "gentleman from utah is recognized for three minutes", "thank you mr speaker and i appreciate the gentleman from washington yielding me the time", "you know if you remember back in the 1960s when volkswagens were very popular and they had this wonderful selfdeprecating campaign going on for their advertising", "for instance putting a volkswagen in a carport and the caption would read it makes your house look bigger my favorite one was taking a volkswagen ripping off the fenders putting big tires on it putting even a spoiler in the back a painting stripe jacking it up on the back and the caption read is nothing sacred sometimes while i've been here in congress i've often wondered if nothing is actually sacred", "education even higher education is still the purview of states", "10th amendment gives them that parameter", "and yet it is possible that we often ignore that", "it is possible to soup up a volkswagen but we never should", "it is also possible for us to tell states how to run their policy on education how to appropriate their money to education but it never should happen", "the provision to which i object is called maintenance of effort", "this is the provision that was added to the budget reconciliation act or attempted to and it was removed", "and most of the people in local governments are very surprised to see this effort coming back in here in this particular bill", "now it's one of those things that this was also not discussed in our committee to any detail", "it is one of those things that the rules committee will always talk about how these things should be discussed in committee", "but when we in committee after committee have major pieces of legislation held close to the vest and only brought only hours or days before the actual markup in a committee oftentimes we find things within those bills that are surprising", "this provision was found in this bill and it was not one of those pleasant surprises", "maintenance of effort amendment that was put into this bill requires the states to maintain a fiveyear rolling average of their funding for higher education", "and if they ever go under that fiveyear average of education their leap funds which are now renamed in this particular bill will be yanked from those states unless they go to the department of education and grovel before the secretary of education to try and get some kind of penitence so they can get those monies back", "this proposal is counterproductive", "we all know that states have cyclical budget years like we do", "in two thousand and two the average state increase in higher education was eighteen", "two thousand and six it was up ninety three", "if i was a state legislator again responsible for those budgets realizing this proposal was in here when we had a chance to add more money to higher education knowing we would now be judged on a fiveyear rolling average there is no way i would ever put that kind of increase in there", "this is gonna be counterproductive to actually states funding their higher education system", "but even if this policy worked we should not do it", "hl mencken once said there is always an easy solution to every human problem", "it's neat it's plausible and it's wrong even if this federal stick to states was effective it is wrong", "it is wrong to tell states how they will appropriate their money", "it is wrong to give them more federal mandates", "now the chairman of the committee mr miller will soften this proposal in a managed amendment", "that is good but doesn't go nearly far enough", "mr hoekstra had a perfect compromise amendment that was refused to be considered by the rules committee on a technicality", "it is wrong it should have been considered", "and i had an amendment to remove this to put it back to the status quo until we can have a chance in the committee to discuss this issue and it was not allowed to be made in order", "that is wrong the proposal is wrong", "the discussion process is wrong", "it should be if we're not gonna discuss these issues in the committee it should be the purview of allowing people to come here on the floor and ask these issues which are not just technical in nature but philosophical in nature of what the federal government ought to do and what it ought not to do", "this particular provision in here should be discussed", "we should know full well what we are doing to states if we move forward in that area", "and for the rules committee not to make that in order i think is wrong i yield back the balance of my time", "gentleman yields back the balance of his time", "gentlewoman from ohio i would inquire of the gentleman from washington if he has any remaining speakers", "i have several speakers that wanna remark on this", "okay well i will reserve the balance of my time gentlewoman from ohio reserves the balance of her time mr speaker at this time i'm pleased to yield two minutes to the distinguished ranking member of the rules committee mr dreier", "gentleman from california is recognized for two minutes", "speaker i without objection", "mr speaker i thank my friend for yielding", "this is a very important piece of legislation", "we all know and i was happy to hear my friend from ohio talk about the importance of our global competitiveness and we have to have the best educated people as we proceed to make sure that we can compete in that global economy", "but i have to say mr speaker that the process around which we're considering this very important legislation is just plain wrong", "we had sixty one amendments that were submitted to us in the rules committee", "now the last time that this was successfully authorized as mr hastings has pointed out to our colleagues was ten years ago", "it was done under a modified open rule", "now we had four democrats sit before us on one of the panels last night and they complimented the rules committee members for the hard work and the very distinguished chair of the committee on rules proceeded to talk about how life was tantamount to a living hell when we as republicans were in control versus this great new day that we have", "well mr speaker let me tell you just a little bit about this great new day that we have", "there have been more than double i repeat that more than double the number of closed rules in the first session of the 110th congress and during this month of january leading up to the 1st of february than we had in the first session and leading up to the 1st of february in the 109th congress more than double the number of closed rules", "and as i said the last time we authorized this bill was in one thousand nine hundred and ninety eight and it was done under a modified open rule", "yes there was an attempt two congresses ago to do it and when we had a structured rule it failed", "why don't those colleagues of ours who are in charge learn from the mistake of having not done this under an open amendment process so we continue to hear mr speaker this is a great new day and all these wonderful changes have taken place", "we actually have had democrats and republicans democrats and republicans prevented from improving this bill", "now mr hastings correctly pointed to the fact that the administration has raised a number of concerns dozens of new programs that are included in this bill", "the president wants to work with us to improve this legislation", "doing it under the structure that we have today undermines the potential to see that happen", "reject this rule and let's come back with at least a modified open rule so that we can proceed with something that in a bipartisan way we very much want to see happen i yield back the balance of time gentleman's time has expired gentlewoman from ohio i reserve my time", "gentlewoman from ohio continues to reserve her time", "gentleman from washington mr speaker how much time on both sides gentleman from washington has thirteen minutes remaining", "gentlewoman from ohio with fifteen twelve minutes remaining", "mr speaker i am pleased to you three minutes to the gentleman from minnesota also a member of the educational workforce committee", "gentleman from minnesota is recognized for three minutes", "thank you mr speaker", "i thank the gentleman for yielding", "mr speaker i rise today in strong opposition to this rule", "the bill under consideration today is a product of a multiyear bipartisan effort by the education and labor committee", "democrats and republicans worked together to craft this legislation", "now the rules committee has thrown this bipartisan effort to the wind and revealed the true partisan colors that are flying there", "by allowing twenty democrat amendments and only four republican amendments the rules committee has effectively announced that the minority party is not to be a player", "folks it isn't fair it's not a democracy", "i submitted an amendment to the rules committee early this week but my colleagues will not even have the chance to consider its merits because it was not made an order by the rules committee", "it is a particularly sad statement given the nature of my amendment", "on january 29th the city of berkeley passed resolutions that among other things state that the united states marine corps recruiting office is not welcome in their city", "and if recruiters choose to stay they do so as uninvited and unwelcome intruders", "i'm appalled", "my amendment addresses this action by denying federal funding to colleges that contract with an entity that takes action to discriminate or condones discrimination against the military by denying equal public access", "the amendment essentially holds colleges and universities accountable for maintaining agreements or contracts with entities that allow this open discrimination", "mr speaker during the vietnam era and i'm old enough to have not only remember it but to have experienced it many of our service members and veterans received shameful treatment at the hands of those who opposed our nation's foreign policy", "we must protect our current service members from the same treatment by showing that the berkeley city council's appalling behavior is unacceptable in this great nation", "demonizing the men and women serving our country in the military as demonstrated by the berkeley city council has no place in our nation's political discourse", "as a graduate of the rotc program and a 25year veteran of the marine corps i am profoundly disappointed with the appalling actions of the berkeley city council", "institutions that continue to maintain contracts and agreements with this city are in effect condoning this discriminatory and unjust treatment of our service members", "they deserve better from us mr speaker", "this structured rule excluding my amendment denies this body the opportunity to reaffirm our strong support for the men and women who so honorably and bravely defend our nation", "mr speaker i urge my colleagues to vote against this restrictive rule and i yield back the balance of my time gentleman yields back the balance of his time does the gentlewoman from ohio continue to reserve her time i continue to reserve", "gentleman from washington", "mr speaker i am pleased to yield three minutes to the gentleman from georgia a former member of the rules committee mr gingrey", "gentleman from george is recognized for three minutes", "mr speaker i thank the gentleman for yielding", "and mr speaker i rise not in opposition to the bill", "i think there's some good things in the bill", "i was a former member of the education and workforce committee", "i know our ranking member mr mckeon is a supporter of the bill", "i rise in strong opposition to this rule mr speaker the gentlelady on the rules committee of the majority side the gentlelady from ohio has mentioned a couple of things in her remarks talking about what we did we republicans did when we controlled this body and indeed the rules committee and how restrictive we may have been", "but what i want to remind her is that i sat on that rules committee during that time and i can remember the comments that were made from the minority the then democratic minority of if they had an opportunity to control this place then rules would be open and fair and people would be treated fair so that each member would have an opportunity", "they didn't say well when we get the majority we're gonna stick it to you just like you've stuck it to us so i think they should live by what they said they would do", "and the other thing i want to point out to the gentlelady from ohio she talked about the bipartisanship of this bill on a four hundred and fifty vote", "well forty five members of this body is ten", "ninety of us don't get an opportunity to speak on the bill and to offer what i think are very good amendments", "now forty seven were submitted twenty seven were made in order", "but how many republican amendments four out of twenty seven", "it wasn't one of mine and i had a very good amendment mr speaker", "this is the only opportunity i get to talk about it", "it's bipartisan", "basically mr speaker this amendment deals with ferpa the family education privacy rights act of one thousand nine hundred and seventy four", "the tragedy at virginia tech where we lost so many lives was because i think because colleges and universities misinterpret that law and my amendment would simply say that if a parent lists a child a student on their tax return as a dependent even though they might be over age eighteen maybe they're a junior and age twenty but they are dependent as verified by the tax return then those parents should have access to academic records disciplinary records drinking on campus whatever", "and many of us i'm sure have had college students where because of ferpa we never could find out how our youngsters were doing until they were in dire trouble of maybe flunking out of school or having a substance abuse problem", "i commend representative tim murphy for his work in regard to mental health issues along this same line", "but this was a very good amendment mr speaker and one that i would think that the democrats would want to join republicans and vice versa and have unanimous support of that", "so i'm very disappointed i'm very disappointed not only for myself but for the american people my constituents students and parents all across this country", "so again it's not the bill that i'm opposed to", "i'm opposed to this restrictive rule", "and i yield back the balance of my time", "gentleman's time has expired", "gentlewoman continues to reserve her time yes speaker gentleman from washington", "thank you mr speaker", "mr speaker i am pleased to yield two minutes to the gentleman from georgia mr kingston", "gentleman from georgia is recognized for two minutes", "yes jim thank you very much", "and i've urged my colleagues to vote no on this rule so that we can amend it or offer an amendment on earmark reform", "and as we heard the president last week speak about earmarks in the state of the union to my knowledge no president has ever talked about something that's ordinarily a house and senate procedure in his state of the union comments", "but in it he declared war you may say on earmarks", "now we believe in the prerogative of the legislative branch to put things in the budget and take things out of the budget", "indeed the white house earmarks all the time", "but the reality is mr speaker we need to have a discussion on earmarks", "we do need to stop the practice of airdropping earmarks into conference committees earmarks that haven't been debated discussed or had hearings held on them on the house or the senate level", "i think that's the first step but i think there's a whole lot of other things that we should do", "for example there are earmarks routinely in the transportation bill", "there are earmarks in trade bills earmarks all over the place in any tax bills", "we believe that earmarking should be reformed on all committee levels", "we always talk about appropriations but there's lots of committees that do it", "if we allow this amendment to come to the floor we will set up a joint bicameral bipartisan select committee on earmarks that will come up with recommendations on how to do a better job with them", "this would require or we would urge a moratorium on earmarks until the select committee comes back to congress with recommendations", "but there's so many things that we could do that would improve this process", "for example financial disclosure on earmarks", "does the member have anything at stake to personally gain transparency so that when an earmark is added on a subcommittee or a full committee or a floor level", "will the gentleman yield the gentleman additional one minute", "gentleman's recognized for an additional minute", "transparency so that the earmark's put in and members have an opportunity to ask why is that in there who put it in there what does it do and why should the people of idaho have their tax dollars go to something that happens in florida we want to be able to have that debate", "i think that that is so important", "and again there are tax loopholes that are basically industryspecific earmarks", "who puts them in at least with appropriations right now you know who puts them in", "but on tax earmarks you do not", "the white house the white house does all kinds of earmarking and we and certainly the press lets them get away with it because for some reason they're the white house", "but under the constitutional concept of equal branches of government particularly when spending bills originate in the house we have the right to earmark but we should all be measured by the same yardstick", "the other thing that is important is what is the impact of earmarks on the budget when you take an earmark out of a bill it does not reduce the bill", "is that something that we should look at there are all types of things that a bipartisan bicameral committee could look at that would improve this process", "so i'd urge a no vote on the rule so that we can come back and have this opportunity to vote on this amendment", "gentleman's time has expired", "gentlewoman from ohio mr speaker i have only one remaining speaker who will close debate for this side", "because we have the right to close i'll reserve the time until the gentleman has closed and yielded back his time", "mr speaker i understand the gentlelady that she's prepared to close if i finish mine", "is that correct yeah gentlelady has just one i have a speaker who will close", "who will close for you yes", "gentleman from washington", "mr speaker i just want to acquire again", "there's only one speaker on that side is that correct that's correct", "mr speaker how much time do i have gentleman from washington has four twelve minutes remaining", "mr speaker i yield myself the balance of the time", "gentleman is recognized", "mr speaker much has been talked about about this unfair closed rule dealing with the underlying issue", "and that seems to be a recurring pattern and i wish that it would change but i don't hold out any hope that that will happen", "but mr speaker since house earmark rules were changed just last year loopholes and concerns have been raised", "questions remain such as what and what is not an earmark when do earmark rules apply and how are earmark rules enforced we have seen examples of member trying to challenge earmarks and enforce the earmark rules only to be told they can't because the rules don't apply", "and we have seen earmarks repeatedly airdropped into bills at the last minute that were not subject to transparency or scrutiny", "time and time again republicans have come to the floor advocating for additional earmark reform including stronger transparency and enforceability", "taxpayers also recognize the earmark process is broken and are outraged with wasteful spending", "this has led to an erosion of public confidence in congress and could explain part of the reason why congress's approval ratings are so low", "it is clear americans want congress to act now and fix the broken earmark process", "an earmark timeout is needed in order to get our fiscal house in order and restore public confidence", "in january house republicans united together and called on house democrats to join us in an immediate moratorium on earmarks and the appointment of a bipartisan bicameral joint committee to reform the earmark process and eliminate wasteful spending", "house democrat leaders were invited to join with republicans and take the sensible bipartisan course of action to reform the broken earmark process", "but the democrats have remained silent and chosen to continue the broken status quo", "so today i'm going to give all members of the house an opportunity to show their support for a bipartisan solution", "mr speaker i'm asking my colleagues to vote against the previous question so that i can amend the rule to allow the house to immediately consider house concurrent resolution two hundred and sixty three which would establish a joint select committee on earmark reform", "the joint select committee on earmark reform would hold hearings and make recommendations for the comprehensive reform of the earmark process", "their resolution would also prohibit bills resolutions and conference reports containing earmarks requested by members or the administration to be considered until the joint select committee has filed its report", "considering and adopting house concurrent resolution today is a sensible bipartisan solution that will bring genuine accountability and transparency to the spending process and will restore taxpayer trust and integrity in congress", "let me be clear with my motion every member of this house will have a chance to publicly vote and take a stand on earmark abuse and earmark secrecy", "every member will vote on whether they believe the earmark process must be reformed", "so mr speaker we will do all that we can on our side to challenge the leaders to adopt this resolution until a moratorium or bipartisan committee is in place", "house republicans have adopted already a series of earmark reforms that we will adhere to including barring members from using taxpayer money to fund projects named after themselves and prohibiting earmarks from being airdropped into bills at the last minute to avoid transparency", "so mr speaker i ask unanimous consent to insert the text of the amendment the letter sent from the republican leaders to speaker pelosi on january 25th two thousand and eight and extraneous materials immediately prior to the vote on the previous question", "without objection", "mr speaker i urge all of my colleagues to join me today in acting to permanently change the way in which washington spends taxpayer's money", "vote no on the previous question so we can address this very important house concurrent resolution", "mr speaker with that i yield back the balance of my time", "gentleman from washington yields back the balance of his time gentlewoman from ohio", "mr speaker it's my honor to yield the balance of time of my time to the gentleman from wisconsin the distinguished chairman of the committee on appropriations mr obey who will close for our side", "gentleman from wisconsin is recognized", "mr speaker to listen to the last two speakers one would think that they had rip van winkled their way through the last year in this house", "for the republican party leadership to belatedly give us lectures on earmarks is in my view akin to reformed alcoholics giving lectures on temperance", "the higher education bill being debated today is funded through the labor h appropriation bill", "in fiscal one thousand nine hundred and ninety five the last year i chaired that subcommittee that bill contained virtually no earmarks", "by the year two thousand that same bill contained four hundred and ninety one earmarks", "and by two thousand and six that bill had three thousand and thirty one earmarks totalling twelve billion", "the previous republican leadership was notorious for using earmarks as enticements in order to get their membership to vote for bills that individuals would otherwise not be inclined to vote for", "for example newspapers at the time reported that the previous republican leadership used earmarks in the transportation authorization bill as rewards for several republican members who switched their votes and agreed to support the medicare part d provision that forbade the federal government from negotiating with the drug industry to provide lower costs for seniors under medicare", "under the republican leadership the cost of earmarks quadrupled and we were treated to stories about mr cunningham mr ney mr abramoff abusing the process as well as several others", "when democrats took over the house until we could reform the process we suspended earmarks for a year over the fierce objections of as many members of the republican party as we saw in my own party", "in response to demands from both parties after we reformed the process we then resumed the earmarking process with the expressed intention of cutting in half the cost of earmarks in nonproject accounts", "we made no such commitments for accounts that are by their nature projectbased because to do so would gut the very purpose under the bills or of the bills under consideration", "example the army corps budget is by its nature projectbased", "in fiscal two thousand and six the administration sent up a budget request for the army corps containing nine hundred and eighty four projects", "of the final amount provided for the corps eighty six of the projects where administrationrequested earmarks", "the corps is an interesting example", "the administration argues that they have a system for selecting projects and that they only select projects that score a three or better on their scale", "however in two thousand and six there were sixteen projects requested by the administration that did not even qualify for funding based on the administration's own criteria", "after all the shouting was over last year we essentially met our promise cutting nonproject earmarks by forty three after negotiations with the senate cutting it from sixteen billion down to nine billion", "so we came pretty doggone close to our goal", "i would've preferred a larger reduction to fifty but forty three reduction is a forty three larger reduction than any republican congress ever produced", "and we did it under a reform process", "at the beginning of the 110th congress the new democratic majority passed unprecedented new rules that require the listing of the sponsors of every earmark that require that any member of congress requesting an earmark disclose in writing the name and address of the intended recipient the purpose of the earmark and require that members certify that he or she had no financial interest in the project", "we also require that all matters before a conference committee including earmarks must be subjected to full and open debate and that no item might be added to the conference report after the conference committee had adjourned as has happened many times in the past", "as we moved forward with the earmarks last year i brought a motion to the floor to see if members wanted to eliminate all earmarks", "that motion failed by a vote of fifty three to three hundred and sixty nine with the majority of both parties voting against it", "i'm assuming they did that because an overwhelming member of honorable members on both sides of the aisle believe that members should not lose the ability to fund priority items for their districts because of the scurrilous behavior of a handful of renegade members", "during house consideration of fiscal eight appropriation bills seventy one earmarkrelated amendments were debated and voted on on the floor including three amendments to eliminate all earmarks in the bill under consideration and sixty eight amendments to eliminate particular earmarks", "of the forty eight amendments on which recorded votes were taken only thirteen received the support of more than half the republicans who voted", "on those thirteen the percentage of republicans who voted yes never exceeded fifty seven", "every member knows that even if the house unilaterally suspends earmarks the senate will not follow suit", "a firm majority on both sides will see to that", "i have learned that lesson the hard way", "one last point the resolution introduced by our friends on the other side calls for the suspension of earmarks for six months until yet another group offers their suggestions for change", "it is ironic indeed that that delay would force us to do the same thing that the republican leadership so roundly criticized me for last year when i proposed to delay earmarks one month until we had time until we had more time to review them", "the practical effect of the resolution which our republican friends want to bring up today even though it is nongermane to this bill would be to require the airdropping of every single earmark in the entire federal budget", "it would guarantee that no earmarks could be discussed or debated while the bill was on the floor of the house of representatives", "it would then give you in spades what our friends on the republican side said last year they wanted to avoid", "i fail to see how requiring every single earmark in appropriation bills this year i fail to see how requiring all of those earmarks to be airdropped rather than debated when we consider the bills is reform", "it moves exactly in the opposite direction of that which our republican friends said we should move last year", "so as far as i'm concerned the truth is this is not serious reform at all", "it is a grandstanding attempt to escape the reputation of previous congresses", "if i had presided over those previous congresses i would be running away from their reputation just as fast as the minority appears to be today", "and with that i yield back the balance of my time", "gentlewoman from ohio i move the previous question on the resolution", "the question is on ordering the previous question", "those in favor say aye", "aye", "those opposed no no in the opinion of the chair the no's have it", "mr speaker i demand the yeas and nays", "the yeas and nays are requested", "those favoring a vote by the yeas and nays will rise", "a sufficient number having risen the yeas and nays are ordered", "members will record their votes by electronic device", "pursuant to clause eight and clause nine of rule twenty this 15minute vote on ordering the previous question will be followed by five minute votes on adopting house resolution nine hundred and fifty six suspending the rules of adopting house concurrent resolution two hundred and eighty three suspending the rules of passing house resolution four thousand eight hundred and forty eight", "this is a 15minute vote", "the house"], "name": ["mv_house_proceeding_02-07-08/mv_house_proceeding_02-07-08/house_proceeding_02-07-08_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "mv_house_proceeding_02-07-08/mv_house_proceeding_02-07-08/house_proceeding_02-07-08_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "mv_house_proceeding_02-07-08/mv_house_proceeding_02-07-08/house_proceeding_02-07-08_DOT_flac_00002.flac", 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4930, 8210, 7845, 1435, 4140, 1793, 11247, 2253, 1930, 6253, 1820, 4260, 9980, 12889, 8269, 6540, 1660, 2950, 2470, 9450, 6030, 9660, 4680, 1650, 3190, 3190, 6850, 2860, 2320, 2200, 3503, 1570, 2120, 2950, 1993, 6680, 2990, 10020], "label": ["six the nays are three two thirds being the affirmative", "the rules are suspended", "the resolution is agreed to", "and without objection the motion has reconsidered is laid on the table", "the house's in order", "members if you can kindly clear the way", "the houses is in order", "all members are asked to take their conversation off the house floor and those members remaining on the floor are encouraged to take a seat", "all members and staff are encouraged to take their conversations off the house floor", "those members of staff who wish to remain on the house floor are encouraged to take a seat", "or we can stay here all day", "if the gentlewoman would suspend until we have order in the house", "all members and staff are encouraged to take their conversations off the house floor", "those members desiring to stay on the house floor are encouraged to take a seat", "this includes staff as well", "for what purpose does the gentlewoman from new york rise", "mr speaker by direction of the committee on rules i call up house resolution one thousand and ninety two and ask for its immediate consideration", "the clerk will report the resolution", "house calendar number two hundred and two house resolution one thousand and ninety two resolve", "that section one hundred and fifty one e1 and section one hundred and fifty one f1 of the trade act of one thousand nine hundred and seventy four shall not apply in the case of the bill hr five thousand seven hundred and twenty four to implement the united states columbia trade promotion agreement", "gentlewoman from new york is recognized for one hour", "thank you mr speaker", "and for the purpose of debate only i yield the customery thirty minutes to the gentleman from california mr dryer all time yielded during consideration of the rules for debate only", "i ask unanimous consent that all members have five legislative days within which to revise and extend their remarks and insert extraneous materials into the record", "without objection so order", "i yield myself such time as i may consider", "the gentlewoman from new york's recognize", "thank you mr speaker", "hr one thousand and ninety two relates to the consideration of hr5724 the united states columbia trade promotion agreement", "the rules suspends the timeline per house consideration that are fasttrack law with respect to consideration of this specific trade agreement", "mr speaker we in congress have a fiduciary obligation to ensure that the legislation pass through this chamber represents the best interest of those that sent us here the american people", "to outsource that very basic legislative responsibility is to abdicate the duties constitutionally prescribed to our branch and raises questions as to why we are here in the first place", "situation we find ourselves in today deals directly with that issue", "the president has attempted to dictate the legislative schedule of the congress according to his political calendar over the objections of congressional leadership", "he sent congress the columbia free trade agreement in an attempt to force consideration of the measure within sixty days by using a provision known as trade promotion authority or fasttrack", "mr speaker i think it's important to dispel a few myths about the action that we take today", "the role we're taking up today does not in any way affect the columbia free trade agreement", "it simply removes the timeline for considering it", "it gives the house of representatives the right to schedule when the agreement is undertaken", "there are some who've called into question whether congress has the right to suspend fasttrack procedures for trade agreements", "one need look no further than the trade act of one thousand nine hundred and seventy four", "the legislation that establishes fasttrack to see that the very statute itself allows that like any rule of the house fasttrack procedures can be suspended", "we've also heard some raise questions about what consequences our actually here today will have on the senate's consideration of the columbia free trade agreement", "the answer is it will have no effect", "the rule today was necessitated by the partisan and irresponsible actions of the president", "instead of working with congress to reach agreements on this accord he instead took the unprecedented step of sending the columbia trade deal to congress over the objection of congressional leaders", "mr speaker the american people have been promised a lot when it comes to trade", "however the country whose economy has been devastated by illconceived trade deals it can only be expected that the american people will remain wary", "the promise of good paying work on the horizon has consistently been bashed by the reality of job loss", "last year's unemployment rate was fifty one and more jobs over eighty thousand were lost last month alone", "is yet another indicator or the worsening economic situation facing millions of america's families", "each day it becomes clearer that our country is teetering on the edge of economic disaster", "and for millions financial ruin is just around the corner", "it is simply not the right time to move forward with this trade agreement", "the american people deserve an agreement that actually responds to the needs of the american worker", "not makes promises that will not be met", "by passing the rule today we will no longer be bound by arbitrary deadlines and the house can bring up the agreement at the appropriate time and under the appropriate conditions", "mr speaker there's yet another reason why this free trade agreement is untimely and requires additional consideration moving toward passage", "we've been promised time after time and trade legislation that there would be the side agreements protecting the life and the work of labor that there would be an environmental safeguards that there were no longer be child labor", "none of that has come true", "and that certainly makes one suspicious on this trade bill", "and also because of the number of trade unionists who have been murdered", "this makes the columbia free trade agreement hard to justify giving the continued violence against the union leaders subsistence farmers indigenous peoples and afro colombians", "while president uribe has made some progress systematic killings are still far too prevalent to warrant the passage of this bill", "the persecution of trade unionists is wellknown because since the beginning of this year twelve have already been murdered", "rewarding the colombian government with this bill under those conditions eliminates any leverage us government has to improve the respect for human rights and the rule of law in the future", "to push forward in a time of economic insecurity is simply a responsible for working families at home", "to push forward in the midst of gross violations of human rights in columbia is simply wrong", "it is the prerogative of congress to suspend fasttrack if the timing necessitates it and only when it is in the best interest of the american people", "by passing the rule today we are reestablishing the house of representatives as coequal to the president and in doing so we're standing up for america's working families", "and i reserve the balance of my time", "gentlemen from california is recognized for thirty minutes", "i want to begin with my appreciation of my very good friend the distinguished chair of the committee on rules for yielding me the customary thirty minutes", "mr speaker i've seen many many unexpected political alliances that have been formed over the past years that i've been privileged to serve here but i've never expected to be taking up a rule that aligns with the goals of hugo chavez and south american narco terrorists", "the us columbia free trade agreement would deliver a significant blow to chavez's authoritarian designs for the region and the farcs terrorist agenda", "no one was quicker", "no one was quicker to condemn the president's decision to send this fta implementing legislation to congress than hugo chavez himself", "and so that's why mr speaker what we're considering today is nothing more than the hugo chavez rule", "the agreement that we hope very much we could see this institution pass would help to strengthen democratic institutions provide real economic opportunity for the colombian people and solidify the rule of law", "so naturally it is vehemently opposed to someone who is systematically dismantling representative democracy and free markets and resorting to corruption and crony capitalism to enrich government coffers at the expense of the working poor", "that is the legacy of hugo chavez", "and naturally mr speaker this agreement is also vehemently opposed by a terrorist organization that simply cannot continue to survive in a thriving stable and transparent democracy with strong institutions and an increasingly prosperous population", "the government of columbia its business leaders and its private sector unions all strongly support this agreement for the very reasons that it's opposed by the region's most nefarious forces", "it would be a giant leap forward in solidifying their attempts to take back their country from the violent and lawless groups that tore it apart for decades", "and yet here we are today considering a rule that blocks consideration of the agreement under the rules of the trade promotion authority which were established over thirty years ago", "many supporters of this hugo chavez rule like to argue that this rule is as much about process as it is substance", "i regularly make the argument that process is substance", "so let's examine these claims mr speaker", "the argument has been made by the sending up the implementing legislation without an invitation the president has violated the rules set forth by the trade act of one thousand nine hundred and seventy four", "and congress must take special action to assert its role", "mr speaker over the last few years we witnessed a number of struggles between the first two branches of government", "so congressional prerogative is a familiar theme these days and i'm a strong supporter of congressional prerogative", "as a result the argument in this case has found an overly credulous audience in this body and proven persuasive to the uninformed", "so i'll do my democratic colleagues the favor of reviewing the details of trade promotion authority", "the statute outlines very clearly the responsibilities of the administration", "it sets forth a number of negotiating principles", "it demands that the administration closely consult with congress prior to during and after the negotiating process", "it requires notification ninety days before entering into negotiations", "prior to signing it requires notice of potential changes to trade remedy laws a one hundred and eighty days in advance", "notification of intent to sign ninety days in advanced followed by advisory committee reports within thirty days", "sixty days after signing a list of laws changes is due", "ninety days after signing an international trade commission report is due", "all of this is designed to ensure that the concerns and prerogatives of the united states congress are met", "the administration mr speaker upheld both the letter and the spirit of the law at every single step", "high ranking officials met with congress a one hundred and sixty times prior to and during the negotiations", "they've held nearly four hundred and fifty meetings since august of two thousand and seven and taken fifty five members of congress to columbia to see the situation there for themselves", "to say that the administration has not upheld their end of the bargain is outright laughable", "now what is congress is end of the bargain under tpa to hold an up or down vote within sixty days in the house and ninety days in the senate", "that's the deal close consultation followed by a timely vote", "congress gets the final say but it has the responsibility to not let a complicated and timeconsuming negotiation to go to waste or languish indefinitely", "we have a negotiation that was launched four years ago concluded two years ago and signed a year and a half ago", "and now after all of this all of this consultation all this time democratic leadership wants to make an unprecedented never before this is done an unprecedented rule change to allow them to abrogate their role under tpa all the time while blaming the administration and claiming it's to blame the administration somehow to blame for a broken process", "they are just making up this nonsense as they go along", "mr speaker ironically on wednesday morning when the democratic leadership was announcing their intention to take this highly divisive partisan and unprecedented action i was sending a letter to several of my democratic colleagues", "i was reaching out to them in hopes that they would join me in a special order next week to talk about columbia", "as colleagues who have gone to the country for ourselves i was hoping that we could come together to simply share what we had seen firsthand in columbia", "under tpa the house has as i said sixty days to debate and work together to reach consensus", "sixty days to work in a bipartisan way", "i thought that our special order describing our experiences would be a constructive and congenial way to begin", "unfortunately the democratic leadership has cut off this substinate process before it could even begin", "killing any hope of bipartisanship on this issue", "mr speaker their actions are causing even more damage abroad", "they're sabotaging our relationship with our best and closest ally in south america", "this is an ally that faces a hostile neighbor on its border which threatens not just colombia but the very ideals of democracy and free markets", "this ally faces and even graver daily threat within its borders", "a threat that has been weakened by president uribe brave efforts but one that still exists", "i've gone to columbia twice in the past few months once with congress secretary gutierrez and once with a speaker's house democracy assistance commission", "i've seen for myself the transformation that has taken place i've seen the safe and orderly streets of bogota and medellin", "i've seen the new opportunities and economic growth", "i've met with the attorney general and discussed extensively his efforts to prosecute violent offenders and end the days of impunity for murders", "i have sat down with former members of the paramilitaries whose leaders have gone to jail and who are now struggling to reintegrate into society with the help of government funded social programs", "this is a country that has come miraculously far in just a few short years and has so far to go", "i find it shocking that the democratic leadership would turn their backs on our friend and ally", "who's accomplished so much", "and who asked for our continued help in accomplishing even more", "this week we've all heard the lengthy testimony of general patraeus and ambassador crocker", "a very common theme i've heard from my democratic colleagues throughout this testimony is concerned for america's lost prestige abroad", "they decry what they call our unilateralism and our disregard for the concerns for our allies", "and yet today they propose to flagrantly commit what the colombian vicepresident the colombian vicepresident has called a slap in the face editorial boards across this country have similarly slammed this action", "the washington post comparative to telling columbia to drop dead", "the las vegas review journal says that what we're doing is stabbing our trading partners in the back", "mr speaker the democratic leadership is determined to isolate our greatest ally in south america and weaken the region's strongest advocate for democracy flouting national security and our international credibility", "the damage to our interests and our leadership will be significant and lasting", "our friends and allies will realize that our word at the negotiating table cannot be trusted and the rules can be changed in the middle of the game according to the whims of electoral politics", "mr speaker this rule must be defeated for the sake of our national security interests our leadership in the international community and our responsibilities as an institution", "i urge my colleagues to vote no and with that i reserved the balance of my time", "gentlewoman from new york", "mr speaker i'm pleased to hear three minutes to the gentleman from new york the chairman of the committee on ways and means mr rangel", "the gentlemen from new york is recognized for three minutes without objection", "thank you", "and thank you so much madam chair for giving me this opportunity", "i could not disagree with my friend from california more", "and there's no one in this house that i believe that the administration has not spoken to more in concerns of four pieces of trade legislation", "and i doubt whether there's anyone that has the compassionate concern more than i about the people of columbia who i've learned to admire respect and work with over the years not only with their political problems but certainly their fight with narcotics and trying to preserve democracy in that country", "the president has violated protocol in terms of not fulfilling the outlines that we've been using historically", "so what i have to say applies whether you're democrat or republican", "if in the rules that the distinguished chairman of the rules committee has outlined to us there's an area of consultation before the president actually sends a complex piece of legislation to the house which is more conducive of bringing us together", "saying to the house that you have ninety days", "and if you don't do anything in ninety days and it's the house of representative that killed a bill designed to help our friends of this area or to say mr president you forgot to consult with us", "you forgot to consult with the ways and means committee", "you did not deal with some of the issues we have", "and so as you've changed the rule and just sending it over saying it's your responsibility in the house", "what we're saying is that let's give the house more time and not a timetable to see what can we do to facilitate an atmosphere that would allow the members at least to know what's in the bill", "it is really strange that the ranking member of the rules committee has presented us the speech this morning that is so similar that i don't remember the last time anyone in the administration is talking about the bill", "oh hugo chavez goes to sleep every night wondering what he's going to do and cash oh my god when we should vote for the people of columbia and make him against them and make him a big threat in the community", "i'm not saying these things shouldn't be consented but how many people republican or democrat has the slightest idea what's in the trade bill why not give them an opportunity to make this decision not based on forty days fifty days or ninety days but for us to bring up these things", "and when has anyone ever heard that they didn't have a crisis in times of peace and tranquility against terrorism and assassination", "and colombia the question we may ask is you really doing a man that i respect as much as he should", "should he be doing more but the real question could i", "your time is expired", "i yield gentleman one more minute", "thank you", "gentleman from new york is recognized for one minute", "the real question i think we should ask our friend is that we know you have a problem", "we have problems in every major city", "why don't you allow us to share with you some of the techniques we have some of the technology work with your law enforcement so at the end of the day those who claim that it's murder that stops us from voting on a trade bill that we will be able to say that we working with them", "so i hope that you rethink the vote", "this vote is going to apply to every president every speak of the house that deals with us", "do you believe they can change the rules and then we say that they dictate the legislative calendar of the house of representatives i think not", "you change the procedure", "we defend the rules of the house and what are we giving up we are giving us an opportunity one to find out what's in the trade bill and three which is most important", "what can we do to resolve the issues that forced members to be against it so i appreciate the words of my friends from california but you have to do that", "you're a ranking member", "i remember when i had to say things that i had to say let's work together on this", "gentleman's time has expired", "gentlemen from california", "speaker this time i'm very happy to yield two minutes to a hardworking fighter for freedom member of the rules committee mr diazbalart", "gentleman from florida is recognized for two minutes", "mr speaker what the majority leadership of this congress what this rule is saying to columbia today is you voted to tie your economy to the united states but sorry we don't care", "you're at war with narco terrorists armed to the teeth by drug money and given sanctuary by neighboring governments", "sorry we don't care", "you've voted not once twice overwhelmingly to support your brave president and his government and the colombian armed forces as they fight the narco terrorists and defend your rule of law", "sorry we don't care", "well i say to the people of columbia mr speaker like the president of the united states many of us here in congress are with you and you are not alone", "despite this day of legislative action that will live in infamy", "gentlemen yields back the balance of his time gentlewoman from new york i'm pleased to yield four minutes to the gentleman from massachusetts an expert in this issue and a member of the committee on rules mr mcgovern", "the gentleman from massachusetts is recognized for four minutes", "i thank the gentle lady for her leadership on this important debate", "and i rise in strong support of this rule", "mr speaker the policies of the bush administration have produced an american economy in crisis", "people are losing their jobs fuel prices are at a record high food prices have dramatically increased confidence in the economy is at an all time low", "now maybe this is a radical idea mr speaker but shouldn't the energy passion and focus of the administration be on fixing these problems", "this administration has turned a cold shoulder to the plight of american workers", "they have opposed efforts to extend unemployment benefits", "they have no plan to help forty five million americans get health insurance", "they have even opposed expanding health benefits to children", "their absolute indifference towards our fellow citizens is stunning", "it takes my breath away", "well that must change", "the speaker of the house has the right to prioritize legislation", "she has stated quite clearly that we want to continue to work with president uribe", "to make progress on improving human rights the rule of law ending impunity breaking columbia's political and military ties to drug lords and paramilitary groups and protecting and promoting basic labor rights", "mr speaker if the colombian fta came up today for a vote i would strongly oppose it", "i have repeatedly told the colombian government that i am always willing to reassess my position but when it comes to issues like human rights i refuse to be a cheap date", "the un the red cross and us and columbia and human rights groups all describe a worsening humanitarian crisis in colombia", "the number of internally displaced grew by twenty seven over the past year due to increasing violence throughout the country", "and over each of the past three years murders of civilians by the colombian army have been increasing", "violence against trade unions continues in an extremely high level", "and the vast majority of cases of murders of labor leaders remain unsolved", "it is true mr speaker that murderers of trade unionists in two thousand and seven were about half of what they were in two thousand and six", "even then columbia had the highest rate of trade union murders in the world but death threats attacks and disappearances skyrocketed but this one year hiatus in the murder rate may be over", "in just the first twelve weeks of two thousand and eight seventeen trade unionists have already been assassinated", "mr speaker like many of my house colleagues i have traveled to columbia several times over the past seven years", "i have gone to putumayo not just to fly over fumigated territory but to meet with hundreds of human rights victims and campesino on the ground", "i've been to barranca bermejo sincelejo and popayan", "i've traveled to san jose to apartado and to arauca", "where violence from all armed actors reign supreme and community leaders are murdered like flies", "i visited the slums of bogota where the poor and the internally displaced struggled to survive", "i spent hours in meetings with human rights groups with families whose loved ones are held in brutal captivity by the farc and with victims of violence by the paramilitaries and the colombian army", "i've met with the constitutional court religious and labor leaders with indigenous peoples and afro colombians and dozens of government and military officials", "there is so much more to columbia than the administrations day and a half excursion tours to medellin and cartagena", "mr speaker congress must insist upon improvements in human rights in columbia and not paint a rosy picture simply to secure a trade agreement", "us policy must take responsibility for their behavior of colombian security forces trained with us tax dollars take into account the continued suffering of the civilian population in the midst of an ongoing conflict and support the rights of victims after a decade of atrocities", "i remained dedicated to the columbia people", "i will never advocate walking away from columbia", "i also strongly support the right of the speaker of the house to take up trade agreements when it makes the most sense to do so", "i urge my colleagues to adopt this rule and to remain engaged with columbia on these points", "gentleman from california speaker for unanimous consent request an opposition to hugo chavez rule i yield to my friend from michigan mr kamp thank you gentlemen gentlemen from michigan's recognized for how long asking consent to revise and extend my remarks", "i'm sorry the gentleman's recognized for how long no period of time at all", "oh okay gentleman's recognized", "thank you mr speaker i ask unanimous consent to revise and extend my remarks", "without objection so ordered", "speaker i yield a three minutes to the distinguished ranking member of the committee on ways and means who's a strong opponent of the hugo chavez rule", "the gentlemen from shreveport mr mccrary", "gentlemen from louisiana is recognized for three minutes", "thank you mr speaker", "i strongly oppose this extraordinary unprecedented and i believe dangerous change to the house rules", "congress first gave trade promotion authority to the president in one thousand nine hundred and seventy four in order to allow him to engage directly with our competitors around the world to level the playing field", "eliminate barriers to american exports and create jobs for american workers", "passing this rule would undermine that authority and damage the united states credibility abroad because our trading partners could rightfully question the commitments of our government in negotiating trade agreements", "i've heard it said that this rule will allow us to consider this agreement this year after the election", "but what this rule would do is to eliminate the certainty under tpa that congress will vote on this agreement", "it doesn't guarantee a vote but anytime certain it doesn't push the vote off until after the election", "it simply turns off the clock entirely", "even postponing congressional consideration of this agreement does tremendous damage to america's competitiveness", "right now canada the european union are completing trade agreements with columbia", "so as a result they will gain a competitive advantage over american products", "columbia will buy tractors mining equipment and fertilizer from canada france and germany instead of from illinois georgia and texas", "chairman rangel my good friend said well nobody's talking about the economic benefits", "they're all talking about hugo chavez", "well my good friend knows that that's not the case", "and besides the reason we're not talking about it all that much is because it's a no brainer from an economic standpoint", "i'm mystified as to why any member would oppose this agreement when all it does is level the playing field for american workers", "today american workers compete against imports from columbia that enter our country virtually duty free", "while our exports going to columbia face high tariffs", "this agreement eliminates those obstacles to our goods and services and supports american jobs", "i agree with chairman rangel's assessment last month at denying a vote on this agreement wouldn't help address the concerns about labor violence in colombia", "in fact this agreement would help colombian labor unions", "the agreement includes robust and forcible international labor organization core labor standards", "standards included with the strong support of the democratic leadership to require columbia to continue the tremendous progress it has made to improve labor rights", "i plead with my colleagues today do not make a vote which will undermine the credibility of the united states making it more difficult for any future administration to eliminate barriers to the sale of products made by us", "vote no on this rule", "gentlemen yields back the balance of his time", "gentlewoman from new york", "mr speaker i'm pleased to yield one minute to gentleman from texas and member of the committee on ways and means mr doggett", "gentleman from texas is recognized for one minute", "thank you we certainly do need a balanced enlightened trade policy but this debate is not about trade", "it's about the guiding principle of the bush administration arrogance", "arrogance that has served our country so poorly", "this president personally proclaiming himself to be a uniter not a divider at the beginning quickly transformed himself into the decider", "and that lone decider has unleashed one divisive disastrous decision after another on our land", "mr chenay's current chief of staff he summed up the situation very directly", "we're going to push and push and push until some larger force makes us stop he said", "well today our speaker backed up by this house says stop", "the go it alone disdain for allies dismissal of anyone who has a different point of view has left this white house isolated", "it's left us with a disastrous war", "and now mr bush's recession", "we'll secure a more responsible enlightened trade policy but we won't secure it until we traded it for a new president", "gentleman's time has expired", "gentleman from california i'm happy to yield one and a half minutes to my rules committee colleague gentleman from pasco washington who's vigorously opposed to the hugo chavez rule", "gentlemen from washington state is recognized for one and a half minutes", "thank you mr speaker and i thank my friend from california for yielding", "mr speaker we need to stop this unprecedented attempt to rewrite trade laws and jeopardize fair trade for our america's farmers", "washington state is the most trade dependent state in the nation", "one in three washington jobs is tied to international trade", "since one thousand nine hundred and ninety one columbia has had open free entry into the us for many of their products while steep tariffs block our farmers access into columbia", "this agreement would immediately immediately mr speaker eliminate tariffs for washington state apples cherries pears potatoes wheat beef and more", "if the issue is a better way if the issue is the economy what better way to stimulate our nation's economy than to level the playing field and wipe out unfair trade barriers for our farmers", "mr speaker representatives and senators are elected to vote", "so let's do our job in vote on the columbia agreement", "what the house is now considering is an effort to delay to hide to slam the door and shut the door on free and fair trade that millions of americans jobs depend on", "i urge my colleagues to vote no on the hugo chavez rule", "and i yield back my time", "gentlemen yields back the balance of his time", "the gentlewoman from new york", "thank you mr speaker", "i'm happy to yiled two minutes to the gentlemen from vermont a valued member of the rules committee mr welts", "gentlemen from vermont recognized for two minutes", "mr speaker i thank our distinguished chair", "there's a fundamental issue that we face in this role", "and it's this", "does congress seed its authority under the constitution to the executive or does it exercise it mr speaker from a distance i have only been here a little over a year", "i watched with dismay as a citizen seeing congress year after year relinquish its authority turn that over to the executive not do its job of accountability and oversight not do its job on trade", "essentially not exercise the constitutional authority that we are custodians of each and every one of the four hundred and thirty five members who have been elected", "the president exercise his prerogative under a rule that was enacted by this house in one thousand nine hundred and seventy four", "but against the advice of the speaker against the advice of the senate majority leader the president did what he could do and that is send over on his own timetable a trade agreement when it wasn't ready to be considered", "and the speaker in her judgment and i support this stood up for the prerogatives of this legislative branch where we have the responsibility to be the final voice of the people who sent us here", "bottom line question is will congress assert the authority that it has under the constitution we can exercise it best circumstances we do it in cooperation and in consultation with the executive", "but if it's a unilateral my way or the highway approach that has been so often employed by this chief executive then it's incumbent on us to stand up and assert the constitutional responsibility we have", "i yield the balance of my time", "gentleman yields back the balance of his time", "the gentleman from california", "speakers to speak in opposition of the hugo chavez rule i'm happy to yield two minutes to my good friend from roseville california the ranking member of the trade subcommittee to mr herder", "gentleman from california is recognized two minutes", "thank you", "mr speaker this procedural vote if it's successful congress would be rebuffing the columbia agreement through technical gimmicks and rejecting a level playing field for american workers", "colombian workers and producers already have free access to the us market but we don't have reciprocity", "our manufacturers and farmers need this agreement to sell their products create jobs and compete against foreign producers", "a vote for this rule is a vote against american workers period", "since the agreement was signed nearly five hundred days ago congressional republicans in the white house have tried to work with the democratic majority to approve this agreement", "we reached a bipartisan consensus nearly a year ago to ensure congressional consideration of this agreement", "in sending up the agreement the president said that he was open to continuing discussions with the democrats", "the democratic leadership through this rule has firmly shut the door to any discussions", "members should be keenly aware of the very negative foreign policy ramifications of this vote", "this rule would be cheered by belligerent leftist guerrillas abetted by venezuelan strongman hugo chavez who seek to undermine the democratically elected colombian government with menacing ramifications", "this rule is a public slap in the face to a loyal ally at the epicenter of a philosophical war between democracy and totalitarianism capitalism and socialism", "president uribe made it very clear that the best way to support columbia struggle for economic and political security is to pass this agreement", "today's action with gentleman's time has expired", "gentlewoman from california", "i urge a no vote gentlewoman from california", "mr speaker i'm pleased to yield two minutes to the gentleman from michigan chairman of the waste subcommittee on trade mr levin", "gentlemen for michigan's recognized for two minutes", "without objection", "trade policy under the bush administration has been badly off track", "the approach of the administration and the then republican majority in congress was to go their own and dismissed by partisan effort starting with a side letter to the jordan fda thwarting enforcement of worker rights provisions negotiated by the clinton administration in the cases of morocco bahrain and oman fta", "it was left to democrats to negotiate with governments of those countries to bring their laws into compliance with international labor standards before congressional vote with no help from the administration", "and we all remember cafta where the administration's approach was go it alone from the beginning through the end with false claims that the other nations were already in compliance with international standards", "in last year with the loss of a congressional majority the bush administration was forced to include fully enforceable labor and environmental standards in the peru fta", "and when democrats press for peru to bring into compliance with the language of the agreement the administration attacked democrats and refuse to even participate in the changes that peru made in its legal structure", "at that time democrats made clear that columbia was different from peru with the level of violence against workers impunity from prosecution and laws that did not meet international standards", "and the sustainable progress was required before consideration", "the administration kept on insisting that the status quo was good enough and has done nothing to address these concerns", "urged by both the house and senate democratic leadership not to proceed with the columbia fta under present circumstances", "the administration decided once again to go its own way", "this rule reflects the speaker's response to assert a congressional role on international trade under the constitution of the united states of america", "gentleman's time has expired", "the gentleman from california", "share how much time is remaining on each side", "gentleman from california has thirteen minutes remaining", "and the gentlewoman from new york has eleven and a half minutes remaining", "gentlemen from california", "mr speaker i'm happy to hold thirty seconds to my very good friend my california colleague the ranking member of the trade subcommittee the foreign affairs committee mr royce", "gentleman from california is recognized for thirty seconds", "thank you mr speaker", "there are many reasons why what the majority is doing today is gratefully harmful to our security", "columbia is a close ally under siege and as the washington post points out today score this action as a boost to venezuela's agenda of destabilizing democracy in columbia", "by all accounts the colombian agreement is a big plus for american exports and american employment with a majority is doing is giving near complete free market access to columbia and taking nothing for our workers", "this agreement would cut tariffs eighty on usb fifteen on us built tractors your time has expired", "gentlewoman from new york thank you mr speaker", "i'm delighted to yield one minute to the gentlewoman from california the distinguished speaker of the house of representatives miss pelosi", "gentlewoman from california the speaker of the house is recognized for one minute", "thank you very much mr speaker i thank the gentleman lady for yielding", "i commend her for a very distinguished leadership of the rules committee and for bringing this very important rule to the floor today", "mr speaker the reason that we are here today is one that i wish could have been avoided", "and i think it's important to put it in context because i've heard our colleagues talk about the merits of the bill or talk about any precedent on rules", "and i've heard them talk about different things but i think it's important to know what brought us here today", "on monday i received a call from the president of the united states", "always an honor to receive a call from the president", "this is after months of our going back and forth with members of the cabinet and the rest about if they would send up for the columbia free trade agreement", "the president informed me that he would be sending the bill over the next day", "i recommended against it", "i said mr president you shouldn't send it for two reasons", "if you send it and we take it up it will lose", "now you think it's very important to pass the columbia free trade agreement", "and in the congress we have people who share your view or others who share your view that we should pass it", "as soon as we address the concerns of america's working people and others who will never before it", "but let's just talk about where the possibilities are for passing it", "and those possibilities are greatly diminished", "if you send that bill to the congress under these circumstances", "apart from the fact that it would be a breach of protocol let's just talk about that", "a successful trade agenda depends on joint partnership between the congress and the administration as was the case recently in the peru free trade agreement", "had the administration followed the established protocol of congressional consultation relating to the submission of any free trade agreement we would not have to take this action today", "by his actions on tuesday the president abandoned the traditions of consultation that have governed past agreements", "in fact the action the house takes today is more in keeping with the spirit of the rules than the white house is move to force a vote", "but as i said just from a practical standpoint mr president you simply don't have the votes", "and if we are to try to arrive at a place where the concerns of the american people are addressed we need more time to do that", "i also said what i've said many times to the president", "if we are going to be successful in passing a trade agreement we have to first tell the american people that we have an economic positive economic agenda that addresses their aspirations addresses their concerns about their economic security", "this bill has been around for a while and matters have only gotten worse in our economy", "the former chair of the fed has said we're in the throws of a recession", "the current chair of the federal reserve last week the end of last week testified to congress that there's a possible recession", "many people i mean the joblessness numbers of last week again pointed to a steeper downturn in our economy", "now you control your time with all due respect to the gentlemen", "i'll use mine", "the fact is as i said to the president many people in america now are concerned about losing their jobs", "they're concerned about losing their homes", "most people won't", "but most people are concerned about losing their living standard when the cost of groceries and gasoline and the cost of healthcare and education and other staples continues to go up", "and the purchasing power of the income that people have is either stagnant or going down", "they have concerns about their economic security", "so let's have a timetable for the american people", "let's have a timetable on our consideration of a trade bill that addresses the concerns and is it compatible with the needs of america's working families", "that is i think the only fair thing to do", "president ignored those concerns and sent the bill over", "i pledged to this body as speaker of the house that at the appropriate time if many of these concerns are addressed in terms of america's working families that we can take up legislation for such a trade agreement", "some have concerns about the content of the agreement", "others have concerns about the treatment of labor organizers in colombia and it's a real concern", "and one admitted to by the administration and the colombian government their differences of opinion as to how this is changing", "but let's see how we can work together to make that change", "distinguish california colleague would yield", "having control of the time i will retain the control of the time", "the important point here is whether it's the substance of the bill whether it's the conditions in columbia they are to be obviously major considerations", "but what we're saying to the president we can't do everything much about some of these things", "we certainly can address the provisions in the bill but i'm not here to talk about that now", "what we can do something about what we haven't done enough about is to send a positive economic agenda forth", "and these are not difficult", "most of what we're talking to the president about are part of what has passed this congress and mostly an overwhelming bipartisan way", "whether we're talking about rebuilding the infrastructure of america whether we're talking about investments in an innovation agenda our commitment to competitiveness to keep america number one and that innovation begins in the classroom", "and we have to have a strong commitment to the education of our people whether we're talking about tax credits for our energy bill which we passed here which would immediately create jobs", "now if we don't do it we will lose jobs that exist now", "same thing with infrastructure", "if we don't make those investments of projects we'll have to discontinue", "but many more are ready", "dirt is ready to fly", "the projects are in the pipeline", "there is a way to create good paying jobs right here in america", "we've passed the legislation", "the vehicles are there for us to do it", "and at the same time we have to address the concerns of those who have lost their jobs", "whether it's unemployment insurance or summer jobs program for their children or other initiatives", "so this is nothing new", "and in fact the whole idea that we were going into recession is nothing new to most families across america", "it took a while for the president and his administration to accept that fact", "and when they did we could talk", "and when they did we could talk", "we could work together as mr baner and i did with the secretary of the treasury to put together a stimulus package that had strong bipartisan support", "and as the president has said has not gone into effect yet", "and when it does i know it will have inject demand into the economy create jobs and i think stimulate the economy", "but since we did that matters have only become worse necessitating for us to do more", "and we certainly should do more for our economy", "and we certainly should do more for our economy before we pass another trade agreement", "it's all possible in the days that are before us", "but instead of having the president's timetable we have the timetable of the house of representatives", "we have a timetable for america's working families and nothing that we are doing here now should be misconstrued in terms of our attitude toward bolivia excuse me columbia", "bolivia too but columbia", "columbia is our friend is a neighbor in the hemisphere", "the relationship between colombia and the united states is an important one", "we have concerns about workers in columbia and we respect the leadership of president uribe", "and as i said to the ambassador yesterday i hope you will convey that message to the president", "and when you do i hope you will also tell him we congratulate him on his excellent representation in the united states and ambassador service here", "so this isn't about ending anything", "it's about having a timetable that respects the concerns the aspirations the challenges faced by the american people", "we are the people's house", "their timetable should be our timetable", "i urge our colleagues to support the rule", "thank you mr speaker", "gentlewoman yields back the balance of her time", "the gentlemen from california", "mr speaker i yield myself ten seconds before i yield to the leader to say that i had hoped to ask the speaker if in fact the votes are not there why it is that we had to do this the day after the present set this message up why we could not have waited forty five days was my hope that the speaker could answer that question for us unfortunately she did not", "with that i yield one minute to the distinguished republican leader our friend from westchester mr baner", "gentlemen from ohio the minority leader is recognized for one minute", "let me thank my colleague from california for yielding and say mr speaker and to my colleagues that our economy is struggling", "families and businesses are dealing with the rising cost of living", "and certainly the job market has slowed", "and in on a time like this we should be working together", "and as the speaker said she and i came together and our members came together on both sides of the aisle earlier this year to pass an economic growth package", "and those checks will be going out to americans here beginning in the middle of may and will continue to go on through the end of july", "these checks again are not out in the marketplace", "we hope there'll be out there soon", "and we hope that will help revive our struggling economy", "but the action that's being taken here today is going to do nothing more than to hurt american businesses and american workers", "speaker earlier went on about the fact that the typical protocol here was not followed that the president sent this bill to the congress without the approval of the speaker of the house", "now i think it's time to set the record straight on exactly what has occurred", "there have been hundreds and hundreds of meetings over the last fifteen months trying to come to an agreement on how this bill shall be considered", "there've been changes made there have been side agreements that have come forth as a result of this", "and over the course of the last six or eight weeks there have been serious conversations between the administration and the speaker of the house about the consideration of the columbia free trade agreement", "and the reason this bill was sent up here this week was because not one time over these six weeks has the speaker agreed or made a commitment to the administration that this bill will be considered this year", "president's been willing to work with the congress", "the conversations again have been going on for fifteen months but not one time during that fifteen months was there ever a commitment by the democrat majority to bring this bill to the floor for a vote in the house", "i don't think the president had any choice but to bring to send that free trade agreement to the congress and force congress to act", "and so what do we do we don't go try to work to see if we can get the votes", "we don't try in a bipartisan way to move this agreement", "no we're going to go in and cheat", "we're going to change the rules under which the consideration of this free trade agreement should operate between the house and the senate", "we're not even been given a chance and anybody that thinks that while we're just going to push this off for a couple of months that is nonsense", "this vote today is a vote to kill the columbia free trade agreement", "nothing more and nothing less", "the speaker points out well this president did this and frankly there were other priorities in the house", "let me tell you what when we passed the andean trade preferences act earlier this year virtually everything that comes from columbia to the united states comes here duty free", "the colombian free trade agreement will allow us manufacturers and us workers who produce these goods to send our goods to columbia virtually tariff free", "we're doing nothing here but hurting american workers and american businesses", "why i think the speaker made it very clear", "this action today is nothing short than of political blackmail", "the speaker made it clear that she has her agenda", "she wants the president to deal with her on her agenda", "and we're not going to move this bill until the president deals with her agenda", "that is not the way to deal with our trading partners around the world", "i've listened to candidates that are running for president especially candidates on the democrat side", "who have talked about the fact the united states needs to be more willing to engage the rest of the world", "the we need to listen to we need to reach out to countries around the world", "there's probably no place that's more important for us to reach out than south america", "here we have a country in south america who is doing their best to fight off a terrorist in their own country", "a message that we can send not only to columbia but to the rest of south america that we want to engage in them", "exactly as many of these contenders for the democrat nomination points of the day have made", "what does this say to columbia what does it say that to south america and what does it say about free and fair trade around the world this is a precipitous step in the wrong direction", "we're sending a very bad message for our partners around the world all in the name of election year politics", "i think that it's regrettable", "it's despicable", "if we're going to have a vote here why don't we put the columbia free trade bill up for a vote let the house work its will on that bill because the fact is i think it would pass", "gentlemen yields back the balance of his time", "the gentlewoman from new york", "mr speaker i'm pleased to yield one and a half minutes to the gentleman from oregon mr defazio", "gentleman from oregon is recognized for one and a half minutes", "for a republican minority and particularly the gentlemen from california who whine day in and day out about their inability to offer amendments even the most minor of bills i've never seen a group so eager to give up their right", "in fact the right of every member of this house to offer an amendment to this trade agreement in a rush to rubber stamp yet another failed socalled free trade agreement", "as one republican pointed out yeah it's been the policy since one thousand nine hundred and seventy four", "guess what one thousand nine hundred and seventy four we were the manufacturing colossus of the world", "we ran trade surpluses", "we had a robust middle class in america", "it was bad policy then but after twenty four years of that bad trade policy our manufacturing's cut in half the middleclass is losing ground", "they're unemployed", "we're borrowing two billion a day from the rest of the world including communist china to buy things that we used to make here in america", "and they think we should do more of the same", "i've heard this and played this game before", "i've never voted for one but every president since i've been here republican and democrat says hey we negotiated this deal in secret", "you can't fail us now yeah it's got big problems but we'll fix them later", "guess what later never comes", "because this congress until today has never had a spine to stand up to the special interests that are pushing failed trade policies policies that failed the american people", "the benefit a few on wall street", "this is about main street", "the houses growing as fine today", "this is a great day and the beginning of a new trade policy for the american people gentleman from california", "speaker to speak in opposition to the hugo chavez rule i'm happy to yield a minute and a half to my very good friend from morris illinois", "gentleman's recognized for one and a half minutes", "mr speaker i rise in opposition to this rule", "why is latin america all today watching this debate in this house because today the house representatives is going to tell the world how we treat our best friends", "how we treat our best friend and latin american who is our best friend in latin america the democracy of columbia", "who was america's most reliable partner in counternarcotics and counterterrorism in latin america the democracy of colombia which elected national leaders the most popular elected official in all of this hemisphere the president of columbia president uribe why because he succeeded in reducing violence", "today seventy three of colombian say they feel more secure and more safe than they did prior to president uribe six years ago", "in fact columbia today is safer than washington dc", "today this house will vote to set columbia aside", "and we'll turn our back on our best friend in latin america", "why again is latin america watching because leftist us hugo chavez and his proxies the narco trafficking farc had declared they want to defeat the us columbia trade promotion agreement", "they can't defeat president uribe the ballot box but they want to in this congress", "prime minister of canada said it best if united states turns its back on its friends in colombia this will set back our cause far more than any latin american dictator could hope to achieve our friends in democratic majority say this is all about election year politics but we must understand that turning our back on colombians gentleman's time has expired", "has longterm consequences throughout latin america gentlewoman from new york", "thank you mr speaker i'm pleased to yield two minutes to the gentleman from illinois member the ways and means committee and chair of the democratic caucus mr emmanuelle", "gentleman from illinois is recognized two minutes", "thank you mr speaker", "i'll thank my colleagues for lending the time", "we're having a conversation here about trade and globalization and about how to make sure that in fact globalization is a winwin strategy for the american people", "and we're talking about columbia but what we really are talking about is the effects of globalization on the american economy", "and in fact today if you a look at the washington post business page it's a new survey out showing the middleclass feeling worse in this period of time than ever before", "more squeezed by rising costs", "energy is up nearly two bucks a gallon since two thousand and one nearly two up healthcare costs have doubled college costs are up sixty four", "and yet the median household income in this country shrunk one thousand one hundred", "the middleclass are feeling squeezed", "globalization can be a good thing", "trade can be a good thing", "but if you don't have an agenda to make sure americans win in that globalization you're going to get a squeeze on the middle class where they resist the attempts to open up markets to american made products", "what we need here and what we are seeking here is a new deal for the new economy for the american workers", "and that means when healthcare costs are up like that we make sure there's healthcare security for the american people", "which is why it was wrong to veto andean health care bill for americans children to give ten million children's parents who work full time healthcare", "it is why it is wrong that when we have an extension of the hope and lifetime college credit so americans can get to community colleges can get to chances for their kids to go to college", "it is wrong to allow that tax credit to end", "is why we are trying to make sure that in fact american people have a retirement security and a universal four hundred and one", "so those who work time seventy five million americans who do not have a savings plan outside of social security have in fact a 401k like the rest of us", "it's an agenda to make sure there's an economic security plan for the american", "can i have an additional thirty seconds your time has expired", "i will yield gentlemen an additional thirty seconds", "gentleman from illinois recognized for thirty seconds", "thank you", "so what we're talking about because no conversation about trade is ever about trade", "it's about the standard of living on the middle class in this country", "globalization can be a good thing", "if you have an agenda and just trade alone is not an agenda to make sure that the middle class of this country that built this country since world war ii are strengthened to compete and win in this globalized economy", "and what we're insuring today is that when we have a fact a trade deal that is not seen as a cost to the american people but seen as an opportunity to succeed in that world", "and we today are making sure that there's a winwin strategy to that globalization gentleman from california", "speakers i prepare it to yield to the republican whip", "i'd like to yield for unanimous consent to my good friend from connecticut mr chase", "gentlemen from connecticut thank you", "i'm asking for concent to revise and extend my remarks in opposition to this resolution", "without objections speaker with that i'd like to yield three minutes to my good friend from springfield missouri who will vigorously oppose this hugo chavez rule", "gentleman from missouri is recognized i thank the speaker and i thank the gentleman i too vigorously opposed this rule", "it seems to me the house today is doing two things that this congress has done too often", "one is if you don't like the rules you change the rules", "and two is we continue to take actions that reduce confidence in dealing with the united states", "when you change the rules other countries just simply don't want to deal with you", "five hundred days since this treaty this agreement was negotiated in good faith changes made sense then and elements that dealt with the environment and labor that the colombians went back at our request and made sixteen months of talking to the leaders on the majority about what was the best day to bring this agreement", "now five hundred days old to the floor of the house and it's not going to happen today or it's apparently not going to happen anytime in the near future", "we had no trade agreements before we went to the process of trade promotion authority because nobody wants to trade with you if they don't think you're dealing in good faith", "nobody wants to deal with you if they don't think you're dealing in good faith", "this is about jobs", "it's about middleclass jobs that my good friend from illinois just talked about", "i mean how much more middleclass jobs could you try to provide when we open their market to us", "seventeen years ago we opened our market to them", "this is not a debate about whether we can compete with colombian products or whether their workers are being treated fair", "their workers already make products that come in here every day with virtually no tariff", "this agreement would let our workers send products there with no tariff", "eighty immediately would have no tariff", "very quickly one hundred would have no tariff", "the eight thousand six hundred caterpillar jobs in illinois would be sending their products to columbia without the fifteen tariff", "why wouldn't we want to give those eight thousand six hundred labor union workers a fifteen advantage that they don't have today and when you change the rules bad things can happen", "this is about manufacturing jobs", "it's about union jobs", "it's about middleclass jobs", "and of course it's about our closest ally in south america", "the second biggest country in south america a country that for seventeen years has had access for our markets", "and in the last decade has worked closely with us to try to solve their problems and the problems of this hemisphere", "this is a huge mistake today", "it is the wrong signal to send not just to columbia but anybody who's thinking about working with the united states of america", "you've got to deal with countries in good faith", "we are not doing that", "we're not dealing with our own workers in good faith", "i hope we do everything we can to defeat this rule", "i yield back", "gentleman's time has expired", "gentlewoman from new york", "speaker i'm delighted to yield one and a half minutes to the gentlewoman from california ms cabs gentlewoman from california is recognized for one and one half minutes", "i thank my colleague", "mr speaker i rise in strong support of house resolution one thousand and ninety two", "columbia is an ally and a friend and i commend president uribe for reducing violence and unrest in columbia", "however columbia still leads the world in trade unionists murders", "according to human rights watch seventeen have been killed this year alone", "and more than four hundred over the last six years", "hardly any of these murders have been investigated or prosecuted", "this is not only about human rights this is about domestic responsibility", "how can we try to create jobs when unemployment is climbing and our economy is in recession we need to expand and strengthen trade adjustment existence", "we must educate and train american workers to better compete in the global economy", "the president had a choice", "he chose to force a vote", "and today he is getting that vote", "a vote declaring that strong arming congress will not work", "a vote for american workers and their families a vote for human rights", "i urge my colleagues to vote yes and stand up for working families both here at home and in columbia", "i yield back", "gentlewoman yields back the balance of her time", "the gentleman from california", "the speaker at this time i'm happy to yield a minute to the greatest proponents of free trade the a member of the ways and means committee gentleman from woodlands texas mr brady", "gentleman from texas is recognized for one minute", "thank you mr chair", "america's status in the world that has never been smaller than this day", "who could imagine the world's largest economy cowering from colombia behind the walls of protectionism who could imagine the world's greatest democracy too frightened to even debate even consider this agreement who could imagine that this congress would send a signal to the world that we are not just an unreliable leader in trade we are an unreliable negotiator in trade it is embarrassing and it is dangerous and it will cost america jobs", "today columbia can sell their products into america with no tariffs no restrictions but when we try to sell our products we find barriers and costs", "my workers in texas want to know why can they buy products in columbia at the local mob but we can't sell our products around this world", "columbia is a strong trading partner", "they reduced violence", "they've been embraced rule of law", "they are a strong ally", "they deserve an up or down vote", "expired gentlewoman from new york speaker i yield one and a half minutes to the gentlewoman from texas ms jackson lee", "gentlewoman from texas is recognized for one and a half minutes", "revise and extend without objection", "i thank the gentle lady from new york and i am so much in favor of this process that i had to bring two constitutional books to the floor and to be seen by my colleagues", "i support this initiative because it restores the constitutional authority to this floor and to the speaker of the house", "and for someone who has voted for trade bills that are fair", "i asked my colleagues to recognize that we have an obligation to the american people", "for if we look at the month of march the third month of declining numbers of us jobs with losses widespread across all sectors", "and the biggest loss is coming in construction and manufacturing", "the experts including federal chairman ben bernanki and former fed chairman alan greenspan have confirmed the serious challenges to the united states economy", "one former labor secretary has also uttered the word depression", "this is an opportunity for us to be able to establish our authority on the floor to work through legislation and to ask the question of my friends on the other side of the aisle if trade bills are so effective why are we losing jobs why are people without employment why are we in this economic crisis and so we're standing up for american workers", "we're standing up for the workers in columbia", "i have the greatest respect for president uribe", "i look forward to working on legislation that addresses the labor concerns working class indigenous colombians and that this is a twoway street", "my friends on the other side of the aisle can not prove that ignoring the constitution will get us jobs vote for i yield back", "gentleman from california speaker as i yield a minute to my friend from washington i'd say to my friend from texas that if she turns to page one thousand one hundred and thirty six of the book that she held up she would see that that has the rule that we were aggregating with this vote that we're about to take", "with that i yield a minute to my good friend from auburn washington", "gentleman from washington state is recognized for one minute", "thank you gentleman for yielding", "and thank you mr speaker", "as a representative from the state of washington the most dependent state on trade in the nation i strongly urge my colleagues to reject this unprecedent rule and allow the colombian free trade agreement to come to the floor to a vote", "i traveled to columbia last weekend to see firsthand the progress that the country is making", "i met with union members who support this agreement", "i met with union members who oppose this agreement", "i met with president uribe", "i met with the labor minister", "i met with the attorney general there", "i met with the people who have been disarmed and have left the paramilitary organizations i've met with shantytown residents", "you want to talk about human rights", "those people are the poorest people in the world", "those are the people that we can help with this agreement", "not only can we help poor people here in the united states of america but this is designed to help poor people struggling people in columbia", "human rights ladies and gentlemen is worldwide and we give them jobs we give them hope", "thank you mr speaker i yield", "gentleman's time has expired", "gentlewoman from new york", "mr speaker may i inquire from my colleague how many requests for time he has remaining", "we have let's see", "i have a long list of people here mr speaker i would say to my friend the distinguished chair of the committee on rules and may i inquire how much time we have remaining mr speaker gentleman from california has four and three quarters minutes remaining", "and the gentlewoman from new york as five minutes", "but may i inquire my friend how many speakers she has remaining i have one more who is not presently on the floor", "so i reserve my time", "i'd be happy to use the five minutes if the gentlewoman would like to yield me the five minutes", "cause we got lots of people who feel strongly about that", "and i know we can expand our thoughts on this with your five minutes i think i'll reserve it", "thank you very much for the offer", "gentlewoman has reserved the balance of her time", "the gentleman of california consideration", "why don't i mr speaker yield one minute to my very good friend from miami who is the distinguished ranking member of the committee on foreign affairs ms ross layton", "gentlewoman from florida is recognized for one minute", "thank you so much", "i thank you gentlemen for the time", "and mr speaker i deeply regret the effort today to postpone timely action on the us columbia free trade agreement", "for over a year advocates of this agreement have worked tirelessly with our counterparts to bring it to the floor for an up and down vote", "we have the power to make a difference", "we can make a difference not only here at home but in columbia and throughout the hemisphere as well", "columbia is a close ally fighting our common enemy of drugs and antidemocratic regimes in the region", "we must take a stand for our national security and against the growing influence of iran and other rogue states in the hemisphere", "the choice is clear", "this rule change is nothing but an abdication of responsibility and a decision to leave the hard decisions for another day", "with the colombian fta american businesses will benefit greatly our ally will be strengthened and our interest in the hemisphere will be secured", "i urge my colleagues to join me in vote no", "gentlewoman's time has expired", "gentlewoman from new york", "to reserve", "gentlewoman from new york continues to reserve her time", "the gentleman from california", "speaker at this time i happy to yield a minute to my very good friend and a passionate free trader the gentleman from texas mr hensarling", "gentleman from texas is recognized for one minute", "i thank the gentlemen for yielding", "mr speaker i find it fascinating that the democrat majority this week can find time to rename post offices but somehow cannot find the time to vote on a trade agreement to help create more american jobs", "we're talking about a trade agreement to where over ninety of colombian goods come into our country duty free", "yet only three of our goods go into their country duty free", "we're trying to level the playing field here mr speaker we're trying to create more american jobs", "what could be more fair and mr speaker i had an opportunity to sit down with the fed chairman this week", "and as we talk about tough economic times we ought to learn the lessons of history", "and one of the lessons of history is that starting a trade war can bring about a recession", "and that's what we see the democrats doing", "people are struggling to make their paycheck stretch", "why don't we create more jobs why don't we level this playing field and when it comes to our friend columbia hugo chavez wants this trade agreement to never see the light of day", "the gentleman's time has expired", "i yield for additional fifteen seconds", "gentlemen from texas is recognized for fifteen seconds", "and again mr speaker when we're talking about our ally columbia hugo chavez wants this trade agreement to never see the light of day and our democrat colleagues agree", "with that i yield back the balance of my time", "the gentleman yields back the balance of his time", "who seeks recognition i will continue to reserve", "so may i inquire of my friends so i assume there are no further speakers then on my last speaker has not yet shown up", "so i guess i should refer from that that there won't be any more speakers other than your close i presume", "i think that's let me mr speaker if i may yield one minute to my very good friend from fairfax distinguished a former chairman and ranking member of the committee on government what's it called now government oversight and reform", "i can't keep up with it but gentleman from virginia is recognized for one minute", "well thank you", "i oppose this resolution strongly ms speaker we call us fasttrack authority for a reason", "no argument about process niceties can change the meaning of those words", "this is supposed to be a deadline for a vote in the house", "the administration has been talking and talking and we think that if we didn't bring this forward it would never come up for a vote at all", "this is the vote", "that's the very point of the requirement we're being asked to waive today", "look the supposed failure to consult is just the latest pretext for the shameless politicization of free trade policy and the abandonment of a key ally", "the perverse truth underlying the political battle lines over trade that this action would harm american interests at home and abroad", "in fact american workers would benefit from the provisions in this agreement much more than their colombian brothers and sisters", "columbia already has access to us market under the andian free trade agreement", "this opens eighty of colombian markets that currently are closed have high tariffs to american farmers and american manufacturers", "legislating like elections is about choices and changing the rules gentleman's time has expired", "is the wrong choice", "gentleman's time has expired", "who seeks recognition gentlemen from california", "mr speaker i'd gain inquire the distinguished chair of the committee on rules if in fact they're going to be any other speakers on the other side of the aisle", "there are not there are not", "okay so mr speaker let me feel myself balanced at the time to simply say that this has been a very interesting debate", "unfortunately our colleagues on the other side have put forward some well let's say some inaccuracies", "the fact of the matter is over the last four years when this process began the administration has been working very closely with hundreds and hundreds of meetings in a bipartisan way to come together so that we can do what both democrats and republicans alike have said that they want to do strengthen our ties within this hemisphere and do what we can to ensure that we bring about an agreement which will work to create jobs right here in the united states", "that as sandwich ranking member of the ways and means committee has just reminded me of the fact that every country with which we have a free trade agreement every single country we enjoy a surplus of trade a trade surplus", "so the notion that pursuing these fta somehow costs us jobs is preposterous and the facts don't hold it up", "one of our friends on the other side of the aisle gentleman from oregon mr defazio talked about the fact that we were the manufacturing giant in one thousand nine hundred and seventy four thirty four years ago when fasttrack authority was putting in to put into place", "and i will tell him today we are still the world's manufacturing giant", "in one thousand nine hundred and seventy four we had a one and a half trillion dollar economy", "today we have a one hundred and forty one trillion economy", "so as was said by the republican leader mr baner this is a no brainer as mr mccrary said this is a no brainer economically", "we need to recognize that if we as a nation are going to maintain our leadership role we have to shape it", "gentleman's time has expired", "vote no on this horrible hugo chavez rule mr speaker", "and with that i yield back the balance of my time", "gentlewoman of new york mr speaker i need to put on the record the fact that america is not the manufacturing giant china is the manufacturing giant followed by india", "yield no thank you", "i like to have my time to close", "the people who talk all again today who talk about free trade never mention fair trade", "it's been a problem for me for a long time", "if it has not affected their economies they're very lucky", "i happen to represent an economy that has been greatly affected by trade policies that did nothing for the american workers they did nothing to produce more jobs", "the idea that we would again continue to follow that failed policy surprise me but the most important thing today we are not debating the columbia us free trade committee", "what we are debating today is whether or not the house of representatives is going to take back what it is entitled to take back", "and that is responsibility for scheduling matters that come to the floor for consideration", "it is a very important point", "we're perfectly entitled to do it under the law", "it affects the senate not a bit", "and i am proud frankly to say again that we are prerogatives which have been slipping away from us for the past twelve years", "all the congress's prerogative going through the executive department that has to stop", "i not only wanted to stop this one i would like to regain some of the abilities that we have lost already to represent the people who send us here", "i urge everyone to vote yes on this rules changed today", "and i move the previous question", "without objection the previous question is order", "the question is on adoption of the resolution", "all those in favor say aye all those opposed say no the nos have it", "the speaker on that gentlewoman from new york", "i request the yays and nays", "yays and nays are requested", "those favoring a vote with the yays and nays will rise", "a sufficient number having risen", "the yays and nays are ordered", "members will record their votes by electronic device", "this will be a fifteen minute vote", "fifteen minute vote on the house floor and changing the rules for debating the columbia free trade agreement", "it's a second in a series of votes on the house floor today", "and for about an hour of debate between the members of the house over this change in the rules congressional quarterly reported the debate like this late yesterday"], "name": ["mv_house_proceeding_04-10-08_00/mv_house_proceeding_04-10-08_00/house_proceeding_04-10-08_00_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "mv_house_proceeding_04-10-08_00/mv_house_proceeding_04-10-08_00/house_proceeding_04-10-08_00_DOT_flac_00001.flac", 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11930, 12940, 5100, 8440, 6830, 4290, 6500, 3688, 15072, 10060, 4270, 3162, 18928, 10860, 11010, 15974, 8290, 18030, 11090, 10564, 7419, 8640, 1667, 10573, 930, 8650, 10523, 6140, 3360, 20460, 4650, 5433, 8140, 12329, 6641, 1080, 4787, 2763, 1903, 5280, 3380, 10968, 3770, 20720, 6290, 9403, 3197, 4500, 11610, 8140, 25260, 5073], "label": ["yeays and nays are ordered or on which the vote is objected to under clause six of rule twenty", "recorded votes on postponed questions will be taken later", "the gentleman from texas", "madam speaker i've moved to suspend the rules and agree to the resolution hr1086", "the clerk will report the title of the resolution", "house resolution one thousand and eighty six", "resolution recognizing national nurses week on may 6th through may 12th two thousand and eight", "pursuant to the rule the gentleman from texas mr green and the gentleman from nebraska mr terry each will control twenty minutes", "the house will come to order", "members and staff will remove their conversations from the floor", "house will come to order", "members and staff will remove their conversations from the floor", "chair recognizes the gentleman from texas", "madam speaker i ask unanimous consent that all members may have five legislative days revise extend their remarks and extend extraneous material on the resolution under consideration", "sound objection", "madam speaker i yield myself as much time as i may consume", "gentleman from texas is recognized", "madam speaker i rise today in support of hr1086 recognizing today may 6th through may 12th as national nurses week", "as a cosponsor's resolution i'm proud to lend my voice and support of our nation's nurses", "continuing in the illustrious tradition of florence nightingale the founder of modern nursing nurses today continue to attend our armed forces overseas", "these brave men and women place themselves at risk in war zones including conflicts in afghanistan and iraq to tend to our injured soldiers", "besides tending to the wounded abroad nurses are also on the front lines of our healthcare system here at home", "whether their primary function is to care for our aging population or to provide immediate aid to the sick and injured our nurses provide quality patient care and support to keep our health care system running", "as the nation continues to face a nursing shortage where the projected one million new nurses needed by two thousand and sixteen it's especially important that everyone is aware of the sacrifices nurses make on a daily basis for our country", "we must continue to encourage more young people and those seeking a change in career to join the nursing profession", "the resolution before us encourages all americans to observe this week as national nurses week by showing appropriate recognition to nurses and creating programs and activities during the week to demonstrate the importance of nurses", "i'd like to thank my colleagues and former nurses congresswoman eddie bernice johnson congresswoman carolyn mccarthy and congresswoman lois capps for their leadership on this issue", "and again i reiterate they are former nurses although i don't know if you're ever a former nurse", "i urge my colleagues on both sides of the aisle to join me in supporting the resolute in its adoption and i reserve the balance of my time", "gentleman from texas reserves his time the gentleman from nebraska", "yield myself as much time as i may consume", "gentleman is recognized", "i rise today in support of house resolution one thousand and eighty six acknowledging may 6th through may 12th two thousand and eight as national nurses week", "in addition to kicking off national nurses week today we are also celebrating the comforts and care that nurses provide by recognizing may 6th as national nurses day", "this tradition started one thousand nine hundred and eighty two when president ronald reagan signed a proclamation making today national recognition day for nurses", "this is a week to recognize nurses as being the largest single component of health care profession with over twenty five million registered nurses in the united states and the critical role they play in providing care not only to the citizens of america but are also serving our nation in both iraq and afghanistan", "in addition to the immediate care they provide to patients they also have helped to educate and inform and improve education and retention of nurses", "i would like to thank the author of this resolution mrs eddie bernice johnson of texas for her leadership and honoring nurses that have helped promote health prevent disease and help other americans cope with illnesses", "i encourage all of my colleagues to vote in favor of this resolution and i reserve the balance of my time", "gentleman from nebraska reserves his time the gentleman from texas", "madam speaker i yield five minutes to my good friend and colleague from texas congresswoman eddie bernice johnson who literally we served with since one thousand nine hundred and seventy three with just a little break in the service", "so congressman johnson gentlewoman from texas is recognized for five minutes", "thank you very much madam speaker", "and let me thank my colleague and friend of long standing and also thank the minority side for their assistance and both chairman dingell and ranking member barton as a registered nurse with a master's degree it is a privilege and a delight to offer a resolution recognizing national nurses week which is may 6th through 12th", "and i have two outstanding colleagues that we have found to have something in common", "congresswoman lois capps and congresswoman carolyn mccarthy who are also nurses and champions of this resolution and of the profession", "and i thank them for their efforts to encourage more than one hundred and ten congressional colleagues to cosponsor this bill honoring nurses", "the congressional nurses caucus was also helpful in promoting the legislation and i appreciate the members efforts to rally for the support of hr1086", "nurses are a key component of our nurses health care system whether on the battlefield or at sea and a skilled nursing facility and a hospital or even in a patient's own home the care that a nurse provides is very valuable", "nurses are intelligent individuals who must often make quick decisions in an effort to save the life of a patient even before the physician arrives", "nurses are recognized as the patient's primary advocate and every poll shows that nurses are always very trusted by the patients", "they are tasked with closely monitoring even small changes in a patient's health and they are some tough directed decisionmaking people and under stress and in difficult situations", "for fifteen years i provided handson patient care as a psychiatric nurse at the veterans administration hospital in dallas", "and the work was challenging but fulfilling and that's why i still remain very interested in the quality care for all of our veterans", "although more than twenty five million nurses work in the united states our nation has suffered from a nursing shortage", "those currently in the profession are beginning to retire", "there are a few individuals entering the profession the nursing shortage is unprecedented and the depth and duration with a projection of over one million new and replacement nurses are needed by two thousand and sixteen", "nursing schools need help attracting wellprepared faculty to recruit the best and brightest for the educational programs", "loan forgiveness and educational incentive programs can help", "but congress must do more to encourage bright young minds towards nursing", "nursing is a career that has been valued for a long time and it is fitting to recognize the navy nurse corps on it's 100th anniversary this year", "for nearly one hundred years before congress formally established the navy nurse corps in one thousand nine hundred and eight women worked as nurses aboard navy ships and in navy hospitals as early as the war of one thousand eight hundred and twelve", "volunteers performed nursing duty in places that were often dangerous and required courage in the face of adversity", "members of the esteemed navy nurse corps care for those brave men and women who fight for our freedoms", "they contribute to relief efforts in all corners of the globe", "they serve and lead roles as part of the unified healthcare system the navy nurse corps practices progressive patient care", "it enjoys a rich heritage accompanied by a hightech training", "a registered nurse in the navy is also a respected officer serving in modern facilities at home at sea and around the country and around the globe", "i'm proud to especially recognize the navy nurse corps for its centuries of outstanding service for our military men and women", "today's resolution honors the good work for all nurses", "one it recognizes the significant contributions of nurses to the healthcare system of the us supports the goals and ideas of national nurse weekends founded by the american nurses association and encourages the people of this nation to observe national nurse week with appropriate recognition ceremonies activities and programs to demonstrate the importance of nurses to the everyday lives of patients", "along with my many supportive colleagues i want to thank the house leadership for bringing this important resolution to the floor and i urge your support and i reserve the balance of my time", "i yield the balance of my time", "gentlewoman yields back the balance of her time", "the gentleman from nebraska", "madam speaker i would like to yield two minutes to one of our physicians in the house of representatives the gentlemen from georgia", "gentleman from georgia is recognized for two minutes", "madam speaker i rise today in strong support of h resolution one thousand and eighty six recognizing national nurses week which is may 6th through may the 12th of this year", "i'm proud to be a cosponsor of this bill", "i'd like to thank the gentle lady from texas representative eddie bernice johnson nurse johnson for advancing this legislation to help educate the american people about the critical role that nurses play in healthcare delivery", "with may the 12th being the birthday of florence nightingale the founder of modern nursing there's not any more appropriate time to celebrate the work done by nurses", "as an obgyn position for almost thirty years i was fortunate to work with intelligent hardworking compassionate nurses and they were indeed a cornerstone of the high quality health care that we provided", "so madam speaker nurses are on the front lines of health care delivery not only here at home but also in iraq and afghanistan", "therefore because we're relying on our nurses so heavily and because we currently are experiencing a shortage of nurses it is critical to support nurse training programs", "that's why i recently joined with a number of my colleagues in supporting title viii funding to provide loans and grants to our nation's nursing students", "i urge all my colleagues to support the goals of national nurses week and i yield back the balance of my time", "gentleman from georgia yields back is time", "the gentleman from texas", "madam speaker i'd yield three minutes to a colleague on the energy and commerce committee and a good friend congressman lois capps and also a nurse", "gentlewoman from california is recognized for three minutes", "i thank my colleague for yielding and madam speaker i rise in support of house resolution one thousand and eighty six", "and in support of national nurses week i commend my friend and fellow nurse ms johnson for introducing this resolution", "as we observe national nurses week i hope we can work together to raise awareness about important issues facing our nursing community", "and the important impact that nurses make to the lives of patients and their role in the arena of public health this is central to our delivery of health care", "we know that nurses advocate for their patients and provide personal care at the bedside", "often it is life saving care", "they're also community educators primary care providers and they serve in our military so often putting themselves in harm's way to carry out their duties", "but we are facing a terrible shortage of nurses", "we are jeopardizing our ability to provide the best quality care which each individual in each family deserves in this country of ours", "as a registered nurse currently serving in congress i feel it is by duty to advocate not only on behalf of my patients but also on behalf of my fellow nurses", "i'm cochair of our house nursing caucus and i was honored to be joined by one hundred and fifty five of our colleagues and a letter to the appropriations committee requesting additional funding for nurse education programs", "these programs have trained thousands of nurses but we are in desperate need of so many more", "and the very fact that we are funding title viii nurse education at the same exact amount that we did over thirty years ago is quite frankly inexcusable", "in addition nurses face difficult conditions in the workplace such as mandatory overtime unsafe staffing numbers and hazardous lifting and other workplace settings", "these conditions are directly contributing to our inability to retain many qualified nurses in the hospital setting", "now as our baby boomers retire and our demand for nurses soars let us use this week as an opportunity to reinforce our commitment to our current and our future nurses and thereby to a safer and healthier nation", "i yield back and thank you", "gentleman from nebraska", "continue to reserve we have no further speakers", "gentleman from texas", "mr speaker i yield three minutes to our colleague from new york carolyn mccarthy", "gentlewoman is recognized for three minutes", "thank you mr speaker", "and i'd like to thank lois capps and bernice johnson for bringing this forward on house resolution one thousand and eighty six recognizing national nurses week", "i've spent over thirty years as a nurse and it was mentioned earlier someone said once a nurse well let me say once a nurse always a nurse we carry our duties even here to the house of representatives", "i sit on the education committee and what i've been working on since i've came here was making sure that our nurses get every opportunity to increase our numbers", "as mentioned before by both of my colleagues the nursing shortage in this country is at a crisis portion", "we see our nurses today are a lot older they're at the retirement age and we must do everything that we can to make sure that we have our young people coming into a very very rewarding career", "nursing could be demanding it can be tiring it can be physically draining but it couldn't be a better career", "when i first joined nursing over thirty years ago i worked in the intensive care unit and i spent most of my life there", "and just to be able to help a patient in their greatest need but also to work with their families to comfort them as they saw their loved one going through a traumatic injury we need to make sure that this country has a supply of nurses continuously", "we have many young people that wanna go to nursing school but what we have found over the years is we don't have enough professors to be able to teach them to be nurses", "so in the higher education act there is money in there there's gonna be funding in there to make sure that those that wanna go into a higher education to be able to teach nursing it can work out for us", "you know when we look at the future we're seeing today in our hospitals such a shortage of nurses that a lot of the nurses are doing a lot of overtime when they take a day off they're always called to come back in", "that is not acceptable mainly because you have to be totally alert at all times", "and i certainly tip my cap to my fellow nurses that go through this every single day", "they stay in the profession because they love the profession", "they stay in the profession because it is a calling", "not everyone can be a nurse it is a calling and i salute those women and men that go into nursing", "and i also salute the women and men that are fighting in iraq and afghanistan and taking their nursing care to the soldiers and giving them comfort when they need it", "there is no greater in my opinion profession than to be a nurse", "with that being said i hope my colleagues will support h resolution one thousand and eighty six and recognize national nurses week", "with that i yield back the balance of my time", "gentleman from nebraska", "may i inquire into how much time mr green has gentleman from nebraska has seventeen minutes remaining mr green has ten and a half minutes remaining", "we have no further speakers i continue to reserve", "gentleman from texas", "mr speaker i yield three minutes to our fellow energy and commerce member congressman collins from new york", "gentleman is recognized for three minutes", "thank you very much mr speaker", "first of all i rise to support my colleague for bringing this resolution forward", "i wanna congratulate him on that and i rise today in support of h res one thousand and eighty six recognizing national nurses week on may the sixth to may the 12th", "as a cosponsor of this resolution i'm proud to speak out in honor of our valiant committed nurses who make our nation and our loved ones safe and well", "i pay special tribute to my esteemed colleagues in congress who introduced this resolution and who are themselves nurses", "the honorable eddie bernice johnson of texas the honorable lois capps of california and the honorable carolyn mccarthy of my home state new york", "additionally i wish to pay special tribute to the nurses who are serving in iraq and afghanistan and the nurses who generously tend to those who suffer wounds from these conflicts", "along with other healthcare professionals a nurse is responsible for the treatment safety and recovery of acutely or chronically ill or injured people", "they also help to maintain a patient's health and provide treatment to those who are facing lifethreatening emergencies", "like nine hundred and eleven and hurricane katrina nurses are also involved in medical and nursing research and perform a wide range of nonclinical functions", "today there are twenty four million registered nurses in the united states", "ninety two of the registered nurses are women", "five hundred and thirty one thousand is a number of licensed vocational nurses", "eighteen million is the number of nursing psychiatric and home health aids", "we cannot do without them", "i greatly commend the american nurses association and the academy of american academy of nurses practitioners and all of the nursing associations and academic institutions who train nurses and promote the advancement of the profession", "i look forward to working with members of the associations academia and others in making certain that we continue to increase the amount of nurses", "in closing i wish to thank my colleagues again congresswoman johnson congresswoman capps congresswoman mccarthy for their leadership on this issue", "and i urge my colleagues to join me in supporting this resolution", "and i wanna thank you very much my colleague from texas of course mr green and of course others who've been involved in this resolution", "on that note mr speaker i yield back the balance of my time", "gentleman from nebraska", "thank you mr speaker and in our closing let me just once again reiterate our appreciation to the authors of this bill mrs johnson from texas and capps from", "lois capps from california mccarthy from new york", "and once again encourage our side of the aisle to vote yes on this measure", "we have no further requests for time so mr speaker i yield back all of our time", "gentleman yields back his remaining time", "gentleman from texas", "thank you mr speaker in closing i join my colleague from nebraska and encouraging all our members to support this resolution and recognition of nurses for this week and i yield back my time", "all the time has expired the question is will the house suspend the rules and agree to house resolution one thousand and eighty six those in favor say aye", "those opposed say no", "in the opinion of the chair two thirds being in the affirmative the rules are suspended and the resolution is agreed to", "and without objection the motion to reconsider mr speaker is laid on the table", "mr speaker i object to the vote on the ground that a quorum is not present and i make a point of order that a quorum is not present", "pursuant to clause eight of rule twenty and the chair's prior announcement further proceedings on this motion will be postponed", "mr speaker for what purpose is the gentleman from michigan rise i move to suspend the rules and pass hr4279 as amended", "the clerk will report the title of the bill", "hr4279 a bill to enhance remedies for violations of intellectual property laws and for other purposes", "pursuant to the rule that gentleman from michigan mr conyers and the gentleman from texas mr smith each will control twenty minutes", "the chair recognizes the gentleman from michigan", "thank you mr speaker", "i ask anonymous consent that all members have five legislative days to revise and extend their remarks", "without objection so ordered", "including extraneous material and i yield myself as much time as i may consume", "gentleman is recognized", "ladies and gentlemen today we move to dramatically step up our nation's intellectual property laws and enforcement efforts", "with so much unpleasant economic news in the headlines the measure before us hr4279 puts resources toward aiding a sector of the economy that employs an estimated eighteen million workers", "that is thirteen of our labor force and accounts for half of all the united states exports driving forty of the country's growth as a result of less than effective enforcement", "however counterfeiting and piracy costs the united states economy somewhere in the neighborhood of two hundred and fifty billion a year and creates the loss of about seven hundred and fifty thousand american jobs", "and so hr4279 will do these important things that will prioritize intellectual property protection to the highest level of our government by creating an office in the white house that will be responsible for coordinating the intellectual property efforts of eight diverse agencies and producing a national joint strategic plan for ip enforcement", "it will elevate ip enforcement within the department of justice and provide more resources for investigating and prosecuting ip crimes", "it will make changes to both civil and criminal ip laws to enhance the ability of intellectual property owners to effectively protect their rights", "and it will increase penalties for ip violations that endanger public health and safety", "throughout the process of developing this bill we heard many expressions of support as well as a number of expressions of concern", "but we've been able to work out these issues on a bipartisan basis at every step of the process", "i congratulate the distinguished members of the judiciary committee both republicans and democrats for their cooperation in this process", "and so now as a result the measure is supported by the consumers electronics association the digital media association the net coalition the internet commerce coalition the coalition for consumers pictures rights and the printing industries association and more", "and that's in addition to the support we've already had from the teamsters the directors guild of america seiuf uni fm opeiu the coalition against counterfeiting piracy the motor equipment manufacturing association the motion picture association of america even pharma and nbc universal", "intellectual property protection is among the key issues that will determine american competitiveness in the 21st century", "the ability to create innovate and generate the best artistic technological and knowledge based intellectual property is the formula for continued growth in the global economy fundamental to the promotion of human progress", "and this committee of ours the judiciary committee has given these items involved in the measure extensive consideration lots of compromise back and forth and we feel that this bill will make important contributions to the fight against counterfeiting and piracy", "it was reported by voice with strong bipartisan statements of support", "and i urge my colleagues to vote for its passage and mr speaker i reserve the balance of my time", "gentleman from texas", "thank you mr speaker i yield myself as much time as i may consume", "gentlemen is recognized", "mr speaker at the outset i want to recognize chairman conyers subcommittee chairman berman and ranking member howard coppola the subcommittee", "each of whom i've enjoyed working with and developing and advancing this legislation", "mr speaker at a time when many americans are facing a slowing economy and increasing cost of food and fuel it is imperative that congress put aside any differences we may have and work together to promote the interest of us entrepreneurs and industry", "over the past twenty five years perhaps no group of industries has contributed more to the tremendous and sustained growth in our economy than those who rely on strong patent trademark and copyright protections", "american intellectual property industries including entertainment hightech and pharmaceutical industries account for over half of all us exports represent forty of the country's economic growth and employ eighteen million american workers", "american technology entertainment and productivity based enterprises serve as the cornerstone of our economic and export strength", "because of the important role ip industries play in our economy we cannot take these innovations or the creativity and investment required to bring them to life for granted", "unfortunately the tremendous success of these innovators creators and rights holders has made them prime targets for thieves who seek out items protected by patent copyright trademark or trade secret designation", "these things not only steal the creations of others but also reap the monetary benefits by reproducing and distributing the products themselves", "and the losses attributed to counterfeiting and piracy affect more than the inventor", "according to the us government american businesses lose approximately two hundred and fifty billion each year to pirated and counterfeited goods", "the theft of intellectual property has also cost nearly seven hundred and fifty thousand americans their jobs", "given the current state of the economy preventing these crimes and enforcing ip laws must be a top priority for the federal government", "hr4279 the prioritizing resources and organization for intellectual property act of two thousand and eight which is also known as proip is a measure designed to respond directly to these challenges", "specifically the bill strengthens our laws against counterfeiting and piracy provides new resources to key agencies involved in the enforcement of ip rights and mandates a new and unprecedented level of coordination and leadership on ip enforcement issues from the white house", "mr speaker the incentive to innovate and the ability to profit from the creation of new intellectual property cannot be sustained without enforcing the rights that protect the ownership of such valuable intangible property", "and while our government agencies are doing more today to protect intellectual property than ever before the reality is that we must do much more", "we must make it increasingly difficult and costly for counterfeiters and traffickers", "some of whom are connected to organized crime to steal and profit from american innovations", "because intellectual property is such an important asset to both the inventor and the economy as a whole congress has a responsibility to ensure that ip enforcement is made a permanent priority of every administration", "by supporting the proip bill the house will send a clear message that there is a bipartisan commitment to ensure the next president and succeeding administrations have the resources organizations and strategies required to protect our vital national and economic interests", "mr speaker i urge my colleagues to support this bill hr4279 and i reserve the balance of my time", "gentleman reserved mr speaker i rise now to yield to my dear friend and chairman of the intellectual property committee who's worked on this subject matter for so many years", "howard berman has been a bellwether in bringing together the groups and i'm happy to yield him as much time as he may consume", "gentleman is recognized", "well thank you mr speaker and thank you chairman conyers for those kind words", "i rise today in supportive hr4279", "american inventors artists and businesses rely on intellectual property rights to protect the value of their creative works", "these works unfortunately are being ripped off around the world", "the rampant counterfeiting and piracy of us products is having a devastating impact on our economy", "counterfeit and pirated products may account for up to eight of world trade and a significant portion of this illicit trade are knockoffs of american products", "latest estimates indicate that us businesses lose up to two hundred and fifty billion a year due to intellectual property theft", "this level of counterfeiting and piracy of us intellectual property rights translates to job losses lower tax receipts and a greater trade deficit", "it has also led to public health and safety threats ranging from exploding batteries to toxic pharmaceuticals and sawdust brake pads", "the economic threat and safety problems that counterfeit and pirated products pose for us businesses and consumers must be dealt with", "given the difficult economic times we find ourselves in it is much more important that we address these problems quickly and effectively", "i'm aware of the recent efforts the administration has taken to stem the tide of counterfeit and pirated products", "the department of homeland security has seized record numbers of counterfeit and pirated goods coming through the border", "the department of justice is prosecuting and convicting more intellectual property thieves", "the patent and trademark office has stationed representatives in foreign countries to advocate for better enforcement", "however despite these efforts intellectual property theft is on the rise", "more must be done hr4279 is more", "the act strengthens our civil and criminal laws in ways that attack the organizational structures intellectual properties thieves are using and reduce the economic incentives that thieves have to engage in commercial scale counterfeiting and piracy", "the act devotes more resources to investigate and prosecute intellectual property crimes", "the act also provides more resources for the us government to work with other governments to improve intellectual property enforcement abroad", "and probably most importantly hr4279 provides a permanent and effective means of coordinating intellectual property enforcement activities", "this includes the creation of an intellectual property enforcement representative in the executive office of the president and requiring that a national strategic plan to counter intellectual property theft be created complete with clear goals and benchmarks that will facilitate accountability", "i'd like very much to thank chairman conyers ranking member smith a ranking member of the subcommittee cobell and all of their staffs as well as mine for the hard work they've put into crafting this bill", "the hard work shows in both the scope of the reforms and in the strong support for the bill by us businesses and labor groups", "and chairman conyers outlined a number of those organizations and the broad sweep of that they cover and their strong endorsement", "i'm also pleased to say that the amendments adopted in the bill before us go a long way to alleviating concerns raised over the operational independence of agencies like the ustr and the department of justice without compromising the underlying reforms", "hr4279 will bolster us efforts to combat counterfeiting and piracy", "and i urge support of the bill and i yield back", "gentleman yields back", "gentleman from texas", "mr speaker i yield to the gentleman from north carolina mr cobell", "the ranking member of the intellectual property subcommittee and a former chairman of the intellectual property subcommittee as much time as he may consume", "gentleman is recognized", "i thank the gentleman from texas and mr speaker at the outset", "i too wanna recognize and express thanks to judiciary chairman john conyers a ranking member lamar smith and subcommittee chairman howard berman for having made every effort to address all concerns raised during the development of this legislation", "mr speaker the prioritizing resources and organization for intellectual property act of two thousand and eight reflects the bipartisan recognition and shared commitment to the scrutiny of our nation intellectual property laws", "a comprehensive measure it is not confined to making marginal improvements in the available civil and criminal authorities", "instead it incorporates bold and urgently needed provision that will permanently elevate the importance of intellectual property ip enforcement in the future administrations", "this is accomplished by providing focused and accountable strategic leadership in the executive office of the president and the key enforcement agencies", "mr speaker in considering why we should take steps to improve the enforcement of us ip rights members should be aware that united states losses from global copyright piracy and counterfeiting cost our innovators and entrepreneurs from two hundred thousand to two hundred and strike that", "from two hundred to two hundred and fifty billion each and every year", "the impact in america has been widespread", "more than seven hundred and fifty thousand americans in communities across our land have lost their jobs due to counterfeiting and piracy", "counterfeit goods lack proper control quality control and can be dangerous", "toothpaste medicines cigarettes fake auto parts are but a small sample of the virtually unlimited supply of goods that have been counterfeited", "the united states chamber of commerce has done an excellent job of documenting the extent of this problem", "i encourage anyone interested in learning about these issues to visit the chamber's website for additional information or to take the time to watch the documentary illicit which was produced by the national geographic and the chamber", "mr speaker fighting piracy and counterfeiting as you all know is easier said than done because most of the illicit activity occurs outside our borders", "in recent years the federal government has made progress in improving both our domestic and global enforcement efforts but it is also clear that achieving success in the fight against piracy and counterfeiting requires government wide coordination and cooperation", "in addition to all the rise in the office of the united states intellectual property enforcement representative hr4279 also raises the profile of ip enforcement within the department of justice through the creation of a new ip enforcement division", "this is absolutely necessary in my opinion", "the bill creates an additional ten attachs at the united states patent and trademark office who will be assigned to work with foreign countries to better coordinate our international enforcement efforts", "and the bill enhances existing antipiracy and counterfeiting criminal statures authorizes grants to assist local antipiracy and counterfeiting efforts and directs the justice department to refine its policies for investigating and prosecuting piracy and counterfeiting operations", "before closing mr speaker i'd like to note for the record three final amendments in the that agreed to incorporate into the bill", "the first is designed to harmonize the forfeiture provisions entitled to the bill", "the second in section three hundred and one places an affirmative limitation on the authority of the new ip enforcement representative that makes clear the official has no authority to control or direct law enforcement agencies in the exercise of their respective investigative or prosecutorial direction in particular cases", "and the third which amends section three hundred and twenty three of the bill simply contains technical and conforming changes to make the text of the bill clearer", "finally mr speaker i wanna recognize some of the stakeholders who have worked so diligently on this effort", "specifically i'd like to note the efforts of the coalition against counterfeiting piracy which has been so ably led by mr rick cotton and the us chamber of commerce which of course is led by president tom donahue and the congressional international antipiracy caucus which is led by representative adam schiff of california and bob goodlatte of virginia", "in closing i urge my colleagues to support hr4279 and i yield the balance of my time back and i thank the distinguished gentleman from texas for having yielded to me", "gentleman yields back gentlemen from michigan", "mr speaker i think i have only one speaker left but might i say a word about the distinguished ranking member lamar smith of texas who's worked with us incredibly with deliberation he's brought parties together", "there's been a enormous amount of work behind the scenes for which nobody knows how much he's done to make this possible", "i thank him publicly", "and now i would yield the rest of our time to the gentlemen from tennessee steve cohen", "thank you gentlemen is recognized", "thank you mr chairman for the time", "and i wanna thank the chairman and the chairman chairman for the work they've done and for the ranking member on this bill", "i rise in support of hr4279 the prioritizing resources and organization for intellectual property act of two thousand and seven or the proip act", "our nation's intellectual property is the basis for our economic success and security", "that is something that can't be undermined by cheap labor prices overseas it's an american product", "therefore protecting our intellectual property must be among our highest priorities", "in addition to undermining our global economic primacy counterfeit and pirated products can threaten the health and safety of american consumers american pet owners steal income from legitimate businesses deprive american workers of good jobs and undermine the necessary incentive for innovation and creativity which has made america the great country that it is", "it is for these reasons i'm an original cosponsor of the ppoip act", "the proip act will help strengthen enforcement of intellectual property rights domestically and internationally through enhanced criminal and civil penalties for intellectual property crimes better high level coordination among federal government agencies and increased resources to domestic and foreign law enforcement authorities", "this bill mr speaker rightfully enjoys broad support from a wide range of industries including the entertainment pharmaceutical food automobile parts and software industries", "it has such diverse partners as the chamber of commerce and the teamsters", "when the chamber of commerce and the teamsters come together it's like ef hutton", "we listen and we've listened well and need to pass this bill", "this coalition that supports proip is indicative of the broad support and the need for passes of such legislation", "i urge my colleagues to heed the words and vote in favor of this important legislation", "thank you mr speaker", "gentleman from texas", "mr speaker first of all i'd like to thank the chairman of the judiciary committee mr conyers for his earlier and very generous comments", "i'd also like to say we have no further speakers on this side so i'll yield back to balance my time", "gentleman yields back his time", "gentlemen from michigan", "mr speaker i follow suit and yield back any time remaining on this side", "all time has been yielded back", "the question is will the house suspend the rules and pass hr4279 as amended those in favor say aye", "aye opposed say no", "in the opinion of the chair two thirds being in the affirmative the rules are suspended the bill is passed and without objection the motion to reconsider is laid on the table", "mr speaker", "for what reason does the gentleman from the i object the vote on the ground that a quorum is not present and make a point of order that a quorum is not present", "pursuant to clause eight of rule twenty and the chair's prior announcement further proceedings on this motion will be postponed", "the point of no quorum is withdrawn", "mr speaker on what purpose is the gentleman from michigan rise mr speaker i move to suspend the rules and pass hr", "i move to suspend the rules and pass hr5690 as amended removing the african national congress from treatment as a terrorist organization", "the clerk will report the title of the bill", "hr5690 a bill to exempt the african national congress from treatment as a terrorist organization for certain acts or events provide relief for certain members of the african national congress regarding admissibility and for other purposes", "pursuant to the rule the gentleman from michigan mr conyers and the gentleman from texas mr smith each will control twenty", "the gentleman from michigan mr conyers", "thank you mr speaker", "i ask unanimous consent that all members have five legislative days to revise and extend their remarks and incorporate extraneous material on the bill under consideration and yield myself as much time as i may consent", "without objection sorted and the gentlemen is recognized", "members of the house the american national congress is a rare example of an oppressed people fighting for their freedom and then leading a successful and peaceful transition to a modern nation", "the fight went on for years underground and in exile against the morally bankrupt apartheid system in south africa", "and once they prevailed the response to gaining political power was not retribution and reprisals but truth and reconciliation", "not withstanding this peaceful transition the united states had not gotten around to giving anc leaders the opportunity to enter this country because of certain provisions in the immigration and nationality act currently require us to consider them still as terrorists", "and after the attacks on nine hundred and eleven congress sought to exclude and remove terrorists from the united states by strengthening the terrorism bars and our immigration laws", "and in doing so however we inadvertently covered groups and individuals whom we did not intend to including allies and even victims of terrorism", "these bars have been used against the brave men and women who fought side by side with the united states forces in southeast asia", "they've been used against those who used arm resistance to defend themselves against brutal and repressive regimes such as those in cuba and burma", "they've been even used against women who were raped in a enslaved by armed militia in liberia", "and as we recognize today they've been used against members of the african national congress including the great leader nelson mandela", "this has had profound affects preventing us from protecting vulnerable refugees and asylum seekers and resulting in embarrassing denials of visas for nelson mandela himself and other foreign heads of state", "we all know how mr mandela and other anc leaders suffered unjust incarceration for decades at the hands of the apartheid regime", "we know how the apartheid regime labeled its opponents as terrorists as communists and anything else they could invent to accuse them of that was negative in an attempt to deflect criticism of their own institutions of repression and racial separation", "and yet these people are steadfast they fought for freedom and chose a path of peace once they came to power are now blocked from entry to the united states", "and so that's where this measure comes in", "congress has begun to take corrective action and last year we removed a number of freedom fighting groups from treatment as terrorist organizations", "today we do the same for the anc and its members in addition to specifying that the anc is not on the list of terrorist organizations under the immigration and naturalization act", "the bill would also give discretionary authority to secretaries of the state and homeland security to admit individuals regardless of activities undertaken an opposition to apartheid rule in south africa", "the bill finally would require the secretary of state in coordination with other agencies to ensure that government databases are updated so that they're consistent with exemptions provided in the bill", "i'd like to thank committee chairman of the judiciary howard berman but also in his capacity as a chair of the foreign relations committee", "and in memorial i'd like to remember the chairman that proceeded mr berman tom lantos for their work on this bill", "and i would like to insert into the record at this point an exchange of letters between our two committees as unanimous consent without objection that they be included in the record", "and thanks again to the ranking member from texas lamar smith whose bipartisan discussions have enabled us to reach this point", "this is a noncontroversial bill that repairs something that should have been taken care of earlier", "it closes the books on the evils of apartheid and so i'm very proud to bring this to the floor with the members that i have mentioned", "i reserve the balance of my time", "gentleman from texas", "mr speaker i thank you and i yield myself such time as i may consume", "gentleman's recognized", "mr speaker the african national congress has played a significant role in history", "nelson mandela and the anc for many years fought against the unjust apartheid system in south africa", "through a largely peaceful transfer of power apartheid is a thing of the past and south africa now has a representative democratic government", "many anc officials are now in fact officials of south africa's government", "south africa provides hope the genuine reconciliation between historically opposed groups can in fact be achieved", "however real terrorist acts were committed as part of the struggle against apartheid", "there were deadly bombings of civilians there were socalled necklace things in which car tires were put around persons necks and set on fire", "i am pleased at the bill's sponsors mr berman and miss lofgren and chairman conyers were willing to ensure that this bill will provide appropriate relief to the african national congress without excusing the perpetrators of terrorist or criminal acts", "first the anc is added to the list of organizations not considered terrorists organizations for immigration purposes", "such a list was created to shield certain organizations from the broad reach of the immigration act of one thousand nine hundred and ninety", "under the one thousand nine hundred and ninety legislation any guerrilla group would find itself within the definition of a terrorist organization", "the groups currently on the exempt list include the hmong who fought alongside us soldiers in the vietnam war and groups that are fighting against the repressive burmese government today", "it is understandable that the agency be added to that list", "second the administration is granted the authority to waive the criminal grounds of admissibility with respect to aliens for activities undertaken an opposition to apartheid rule in south africa", "congress already granted the administration waiver authority for the terrorismrelated grounds and last year's omnibus spending bill", "third the bill contains a sense of congress that the administration should immediately exercise in appropriate instances the authority granted under the bill to waive grounds of inadmissibility for the antiapartheid activities of aliens who are current or former officials of the government of south africa", "i am confident that any administration will use this power wisely", "finally the bill directs the administration to ensure that government databases used to determine admissibility to the us", "be updated to reflect any waivers granted", "mr speaker i urge my colleagues to support this bill and again i want to thank mr berman and chairman conyers and chairman loughlin for working in good faith to address concerns with the bill as it was introduced", "i now reserve the balance of my time", "reserved gentleman from michigan", "mr speaker i'm proud now to recognize the subcommittee chairman from which this bill came and the chairman of the foreign affairs committee howard berman for as much time as he may consume", "gentleman is recognized", "well thank you mr speaker", "it's an honor to be part of the debate on a bill being managed by the chairman of the judiciary committee who perhaps was one of the first members of congress to speak out and lead the effort against the old apartheid regime going way back into the late 60's and early 1970s and who along with congressman ron dellums and many others led the effort in one thousand nine hundred and eighty six i believe it was to override the veto and provide the first really tough sanctions against investment that have helped play a part in the ultimate downfall of that apartheid regime", "mr speaker this bill is a long overdue one and it's the direct result of a stunning and frankly embarrassing story for the united states", "the united states throughout the 1970s and 1980s had a much too cozy relationship with the apartheid government of south africa which had labeled the anc as a terrorist organization", "the apartheid government banned membership and political activity in the anc and forced its leaders underground or into exile", "a direct result to that ban was that under us law individuals convicted of crimes including the nobel laureate and former president of south africa nelson mandela were deemed inadmissible for entry to the united states", "along with individuals labeled as terrorists by the former south african government", "much has changed for south africa since those dark times president de klerk and nelson mandela negotiated an end to the conflict and an end to the apartheid system on behalf of the national party and the african national congress", "in one thousand nine hundred and ninety four the country held its first democratic elections in which full enfranchisement was granted", "today the anc serves as the majority party in a diverse ruling coalition", "yet astonishingly while south africa completed its monumental political transition the us position regarding entry for anc's leaders remained frozen in time", "leaders such as nelson mandela walter sisulu govan mbeki the father of president thabo mbeki were continually barred from entry to the us and they had to apply for special waivers to gain entry", "even more embarrassing than the original us embrace of apartheid policies was the fact that few of those who opposed apartheid in the united states government including many of us in congress were even aware of the residual terrorist designations against anc members", "despite recognizing two decades ago that america's place was on the side of those oppressed by apartheid congress has never resolved the inconsistency in our immigration code that treats many of those who actively oppose apartheid in south africa as terrorists and criminals in part because the apartheid regime labeled them as such", "increasingly stringent security measures passed by congress since two thousand and one have further ensnared anc members because the anc used armed force as part of its campaign against the repressive apartheid regime in south africa", "current law continues to regard the anc as a terrorist organization and to deny entry to members based on their affiliation with the anc", "the intent of hr5690 is to purge the united states of any residual effect of its former policies with regard to the south african government and to update us law with regard to the anc", "the bill as mentioned specifically removes the anc from treatment as a terrorist organization and grants the secretary of state and the secretary of homeland security the discretionary authority to determine that certain criminal and security related grounds of inadmissibility do not apply to an alien with respect to activities undertaken in opposition to apartheid rule in south africa", "i wanna take a moment just to compliment again the ranking member of the judiciary committee who has a very strong and passionate views on the issues of immigration", "and obviously also as we all do in this chamber on the issue of terrorist organizations and inadmissibility for those organizations", "he has truly understood and internalized the historic transition here and the unfairness of the present situation", "and i do wanna affirm one point that he raised", "this bill does not have anyone close their eyes to acts committed by the anc or by the apartheid government and nothing here would preclude the secretary as she exercises her discretion from considering whether or not civilians were targeted by an individual act of civilians", "we should also take into account as we decided what to do on this the very powerful and legally binding truth and reconciliation process in south africa which provided a restorative justice process that solved many of the wounds of the apartheid era", "once enacted the anc will be removed from terrorist watchlist the anc will receive the treatment befitting its status as a leading party and a close ally of the united states", "i urge my colleagues to support the legislation and yield back the balance of my time", "gentleman from texas", "mr speaker first of all i'd like to say that it's always nice when the gentleman from california mr berman and i can agree on immigration issues as we did it in this particular instance", "mr speaker i'll yield as much time as he may consume to the gentleman from iowa mr king the ranking member of the immigration subcommittee of the judiciary committee", "gentleman it's recognized", "thank you mr speaker i thank mr smith the ranking member of the immigration subcommittee for yielding and appreciate the privilege to address this issue before this congress", "first i wanna point out that i believe there's been a constructive compromise has been reached across this aisle that has not necessarily closed loopholes but made some clarification that help protect this country from a kind of a blanket waiver so to speak with any of those formerly potentially violent members of the anc", "and for me i come to this debate with more concern than many because i still maintain vivid memories of what went on in the streets of south africa during those antiapartheid riots and demonstrations and strategic actions that took place black against white white against black", "i also have vivid memories mr speaker of actions taken in this country and positions taken politically and the divesting of investments within south africa by many american companies as an incentive to end apartheid which was i believe a sin against humanity to have a policy that identified some people as being more equal than others", "and i believe it's a sin against humanity to maintain those policies whether they are in the united states or south africa or anywhere else", "i offered an amendment to the judiciary committee before this bill and the purpose of it was to send a message because i have traveled to south africa and i have met with people there who expressed to me some concerns", "and i asked of them because of that i've also dug a little deeper into their readings in the current events", "and it will be not a surprise to the members of the committee that i'm concerned about the land transfer", "that is part of the federal policy of south africa to transfer a significant portion of land from right now under the deeds held by white south africans into the deeds of black south africans", "i made it clear in the committee that i do not compare this to the things we see going on in zimbabwe", "that is far different and that is without benefit of rule of law but there still remains a concern", "i also want to point out and i promised ambassador welile nhlapo who is the ambassador to the united states from south africa that i would make the statement", "and he came to my office yesterday we sat down in my office for a good strong hour and discussed these issues", "and he assured me that there are constitutional protections that exist and statutory protections that exist to protect all property owners in south africa and that there will not be a transfer of real estate property into the hands of black south africans at the expense of white south africans without due process of law and constitutional protections", "i've voiced my concern about that", "he reassured me that that would be the case and i pointed out to him that it's difficult for us in this country to reach an objective position on these issues that are racially charged because it's so much wrapped up in who we are", "and i would point out mr speaker that for the observation of the body that to listen to an analysis of the political campaigns that are going on now and in fact today to listen to an analysis of the predictions of those going to the polls and the democrat primary in places like indiana and north carolina which are taking place right now", "you cannot hear a political pundit talking head analysis without race and gender coming into that debate", "and so i challenged the ambassador malabo that's a very difficult standard that we can't meet it here in this country as old as our traditions are for freedom as much sweat and toil and blood has been spilled to keep people free make them free and keep them free we still can't extricate ourselves from being wrapped up in that debate", "and may i have our public policy identified by how we might side whom we might side with rather than how we might analyze the constitution or the law", "it's difficult here in the united states with our traditions it's far more difficult in south africa", "we had that discussion it was a constructive discussion", "and i rise today mr speaker to support this bill and to encourage an open dialogue globally and continuing communication and interchange with the people of south africa and people of all nations on the earth", "i would remind also the body that the record of postcolonial africa is not a stellar record", "and there are many problems in the continent many of those in the southern part of the continent of africa", "and as i travel and visit there and go into the aids orphanages in particular and can step into villages where there isn't a single adult of reproductive age unless they're a missionary", "it has been devastating to the continent", "and we need to have an open dialogue and be frank about our problems and be open in our discussion", "and hiding our dialogue because we're afraid we might hurt someone's feelings only pushes the problem further downward instead of letting it surface so that we can all address it together with open eyes open ears and open dialogue", "that's what we did yesterday and my meeting which i so gratefully received ambassador nhlapo into my office and in that engaging conversation i'm confident that we've opened up communications for a continued dialogue and i trust that this bill will open communications for further dialogue", "and i certainly support this and i yield back the balance of my time", "gentleman yields back gentleman from michigan", "i rise to recognize the distinguish gentlelady from texas sheila jackson lee who's worked with steve king and suggest that there may be a codel going to this part of the globe", "and i would certainly like to invite the distinguished gentlemen mr king to consider joining us on such a codel", "i yield the gentlelady from texas at least three and a half minutes", "for at least three and a half minutes", "i thank the speaker and i ask unanimous consent to revise and extend", "i thank the distinguished chairman of the judiciary committee distinguished chairman of the foreign affairs committee and distinguished ranking member who has joined us in a very important and historic step that is being made on the floor of the house today", "and i appreciate my good friend from iowa who has given us a global overview but i wanna remind my colleagues that this is a pointed and focus legislative initiative along with the leadership of chairwoman zoe lofgren that we have gotten to a point that is long overdue", "my good friends the congresswoman barbara lee and congressman don payne were part of those who initiated this effort and it is pointedly to focus on really what we would call heroes", "fighters against apartheid in south africa who shed their blood", "so that south africa could be the reconciled nation that it is today", "president mbeki former president mandela father mandela as he is called", "and many of the seniors who are now in their retiring years who when they come to the united states are detained interrogated and embarrassed by our own treatment of these heroes", "this goes to the very point of the expanded use in the united states of the word terrorism and the utilization of it by preventing innocent people people who have been heroes to come into this country", "this is not necessarily a strict immigration bill it is people who are coming into the country legally", "but because they have been freedom fighters somewhat the way that dr martin luther king stood nonviolently for rights here in this country these individuals had to be in the midst of a encounter if you will to provide the safety and security for their people", "this particular legislation is an important step forward but i might suggest to my colleagues that i hope that on the floor today we're making a legislative statement and providing legislative history so that the department of homeland security and the secretary of state or the state department will not dilly dally around", "because unlike the previous legislation this does not order it to be done it gives those departments the discretion to be done as they have requested", "and so we are trusting in them we're entrusting to them this noble responsibility to do well by father mandela to do well by president mbeki or former president mbeki", "and we need to ensure that we do the right thing and as we look to make this country and to give this country a different face on terrorism let us likewise be assured of that we recognize that there are other groups that are similarly situated that we should take a look at", "so i rise to support this legislation mr chairman mr speaker because it is an important step forward", "it does give the ability to admit these individuals were to remove the stigma if you will of the name of terrorists because they were freedom fighters to save and preserve and to free our south africans so that they too might live in a democracy", "that is what this legislation does and i appreciate all of the hard work that is going on", "let me just as an aside indicate that i was not here for hr4279 on the intellectual property and i support it enthusiastically", "we'll put a statement in the record", "i close by simply saying good day for the freedom fighters of south africa and the anc", "good day for father mandela who led the fight on reconciliation and peace along with bishop tutu good day for all of them as we stand here acknowledging that they are heroes freedom fighters fighting for democracy and equality", "to the secretary of state the secretary of homeland security act now once this bill is passed", "i yield back", "gentleman from texas", "mr speaker i have no further speakers on this side now and i'll yield back to balance my time", "gentleman yields back his time", "mr speaker i rise to recognize the gentlelady from oakland california barbara lee who for many years worked as chief of staff with our former colleague ron dellums on this subject", "so in her capacity as member of congress and former staffer she has stayed on the course for all of these years and i yield her as much time as she may consume", "gentlewoman is recognized", "thank you very much mr speaker", "and let me thank you chairman conyers for yielding and for those kind words but also for your leadership on so many issues", "you are a true warrior and we would never be at this place today had it not been for yourself", "i also want to thank chairman berman i wanna thank our subcommittee chairman don payne and chairman bennie thompson for their leadership on so many issues and for making sure that this bill came today to this floor in a bipartisan fashion", "as a cosponsor with this legislation and along advocate against apartheid i am especially pleased that we are taking this important step to finally right this inexcusable wrong", "many of us were arrested during the antiapartheid movement myself included", "it wasn't until the mid 80s that finally congress put our country on the right side of history by overriding president reagan's veto to impose sanctions", "this was a bill that my predecessor a great warrior now the mayor of oakland california ron dellums had introduced for twelve long years", "i can remember during that period the ilw for example protested", "in fact i was arrested with them also the unloading of ships from south africa which kicked off much of the antiapartheid movement", "congresswoman maxine waters is a great leader who just recently received as then mayor ron dellums one of the highest honors by the south african government", "she led the fight in california against apartheid and i think we were one of the first states to impose sanctions", "all of us who were involved during that time you had to take risks", "the anc couldn't even travel outside of new york couldn't come to washington dc because they were considered a terrorist organization", "many of us had to go to europe just to meet the members of the anc to talk about how we could help in the brutal regime of apartheid which was killing so many people dehumanizing the whole country and was one of the most ruthless systems that we have ever known", "it's been eighteen years since nelson mandela was released from prison", "fourteen years since he was elected president of south africa", "and this year he will turn 90yearsold yet to this day to this day despite his legacy as a hero of the antiapartheid movement despite the fact that he is a nobel peace prize recipient he received the peace prize in one thousand nine hundred and ninety three", "despite his election as president we still required nelson mandela to apply for a visa waiver to enter into the united states just for a visit", "this is just plain wrong", "last december i traveled to south africa for world aids day with our colleague congresswoman donna christianchristensen", "and we were asked by many people many times over and over and over again why president nelson mandela was still on the terrorist list well we were quite frankly very embarrassed and shocked and we were determined that we would do everything we could to finally again put our country on the right side of history", "so i am pleased and i'm excited that we are taking this step today", "the anc was fundamentally involved in a war of liberation against the oppressive apartheid regime in south africa for over four decades", "if they hadn't been involved in this war of liberation apartheid would still be existing in south africa", "so instead of continuing to penalize the anc for their political struggle against apartheid we really should be commending them for their work in transforming south africa into a beacon of democracy and just look at how they have moved forward in their peace and reconciliation process", "i think we could learn a heck of a lot in our own country by the leadership of president mandela and how the people of south africa black and white have come together to reconcile and to move forward to take south africa into this new millennium into a new south africa", "so let me just thank again chairman conyers and chairman berman for bringing this bill to the floor today it's really the right thing to do", "and for those of us who have been so long involved in the antiapartheid movement and now of course in the movement to stop the genocide that's taking place in darfur this is a day that we been waiting for a long time this is the only thing that we can do now to say first of all that we understand that this should not have taken so long but at least better late than never", "thank you very much mr conyers", "gentleman from michigan", "no further requests for time i thank the gentlelady barbara lee of oakland california for closing our statement and i return all and yours time", "all time has expired the question is will the house suspend the rules and pass hr5690 as amended those in favor say aye", "opposed say no", "the opinion of the chair two thirds being in the affirmative the rules are suspended", "the bill is passed and without objection the motion to reconsider is laid on the table", "mr speaker i object to the vote on the ground that a quorum is not present and make a point of order that a quorum is not present", "pursuant to clause eight of rule twenty and the chair's prior announcement further proceedings on this motion will be postponed", "point of no quorum is withdrawn", "for what purpose is gentlewoman from california rise mr speaker i move to suspend the rules and pass hr1512", "clerk will report the title of the bill", "hr1512 a bill to amend the immigration and nationality act to provide for compensation to states incarcerating undocumented aliens charged with a felony or two or more misdemeanors", "pursuant to the rule the gentlewoman from california ms sanchez and the gentlemen from iowa mr king each will control twenty minutes", "the chair now recognizes the gentlewoman from california ms sanchez", "thank you mr speaker i ask unanimous consent that all members have five legislative days to revise and extend their remarks and include extraneous material on the bill under consideration", "and i yield myself", "without objection sorted", "i yield myself such time as i may consent", "gentlewoman is recognized", "thank you", "mr speaker today we act to restore the state criminal alien assistance program or scaap to its original meaning that which congress originally intended it to have", "introduced by myself hr1512 will help states obtain much needed reimbursement for the cost of detaining deportable illegal immigrants charged with or convicted of certain criminal offenses", "scaap was created in one thousand nine hundred and ninety four to reimburse states and localities for arrest incarceration and transportation costs incurred in detaining criminal aliens", "from the program since inception until two thousand and three states were able to obtain reimbursement for the costs of detaining deportable illegal immigrants charged with a felony or two or more misdemeanors", "in two thousand and three however doj reinterpreted the scaap statute to require that a criminal alien be actually convicted of a felony or two misdemeanors", "moreover the reimbursement must be requested in the year in which the conviction takes place and is limited to that one year regardless of how long the expenses are incurred", "not surprisingly this novel reinterpretation which contradicted congress clear intent as well as doj's consistent interpretation from one thousand nine hundred and ninety four to two thousand and three caused every state's reimbursement to fall dramatically", "hr1512 would amend the immigration and nationality act to return scaap to its originally intended meaning", "states and localities would be reimbursed for the cost of incarcerating criminal aliens who are either charged with or convicted of a felony or two misdemeanors regardless of when the incarceration and conviction occur", "hr1512 corrects the current administrations errant reinterpretation of the law and provide states and localities burdened by the cost of jailing criminal aliens the opportunity to apply for and receive much needed reimbursement for the cost they bear from detaining deportable criminal alien immigrants charged with crimes", "the bill has broad bipartisan support and the support of many respected law enforcement groups", "i would like to especially commend zoe lofgren chair of the immigration subcommittee and steve king the subcommittee ranking member for their leadership and helping bring this bill to the floor today", "i urge my colleagues to support this bill pardon me to support this bill and i reserve the balance of my time", "gentlemen from iowa", "mr speaker i yield myself so much time as i may consume", "gentleman is recognized", "thank you mr speaker the federal government under the state criminal alien assistance program which we refer to as scaap reimburses part of the expenses that states and localities incur in incarcerating illegal immigrants who have been convicted of a felony or of two or more misdemeanors", "and in fact i would bring the chamber's attention mr speaker to a report that was issued by the gao in april two thousand and five that identifies that the federal government's reimbursing twenty five of the costs of the incarceration of criminal aliens within the institutions in the united states", "but hr1512 expands the state criminal alien assistance program to compensate states for incarcerating illegal immigrants who are charged with and not only convicted as under their wishes under the current program charged with a felony or two or more misdemeanors", "and i stand here mr speaker and applaud the gentlelady from california for bringing this legislation and because i think this is a constructive change to our policy and the language very simply adds the words charged with or to the existing language of compensation for those convicted of", "and it recognizes that there's significant cost involved and processing criminal aliens and the investigation the arrest stage and the indictment stage", "and as those costs amount and are incurred we need to be sure that we take this position", "that the federal government's job it is to guard and protect our borders", "that is not the job of a political subdivision that's essentially the job of the federal government", "when we fail to do our job when we don't have sufficient constraints in place at our borders or at our airports or our ports of entry then the result of it is that this burden of law enforcement falls upon the political subdivisions on the states on the cities and on the counties to enforce the law and when they do they incur these costs", "this bill is hr1512 seeks to lift off some of that burden and it certainly wouldn't be all of it", "lamar smith the ranking member of the full judiciary committee", "and i both believe the available statistics on criminal illegal immigrants in the united states leave much to be desired", "there's too little data on illegal immigrants in prison in the united states", "we don't really know how many there are or what crimes they are charged with or convicted of or how long is time they spend in our prison systems", "and i particularly can speak to that since i asked for the gao study that was completed in april of two thousand and five", "i thought in that study i would get the answers to the percentages of our inmate populations that are criminal aliens what crimes they might have convicted and in quite a list of things it would help us establish our policy both law enforcement policy and our immigration policy", "however that report came back not quite apples to apples and there are conclusions that can be drawn there are also gaps to their knowledge base", "and because of the inspiration that's brought forward because of this bill of ms sanchez hr1512 we engaged into the judiciary committee and dialogue about how we can better gather that information", "and i'm really pleased that ms lofgren the chair of the immigration subcommittee of which i'm the ranking member and mr smith the ranking member of the full judiciary committee have agreed to send a joint request to the general accountability office to develop additional statistics on criminal alien immigrants", "and i look forward to working with ms lofgren and mr smith and others on this particular subject matter", "and this is something we vitally need to provide statistics that will help us establish a better immigration policy", "and as we move forward with this piece of legislation that i believe is a constructive move in the right direction that helps to compensate and it won't be all but it'll be at least in part help compensate the political subdivisions for their costs incurred to enforce the laws against the criminal aliens as it adds to it those charged with the crime not just those convicted of a crime or two serious misdemeanors", "but into this negotiation also will be the formal request for the gao study to look further at the effect of crime on the united states of america by criminal aliens", "and the question has got to be constantly before us since we are charged with the responsibility of protecting the american people", "and it's very much a constitutional responsibility and we're also constitutionally charged with the responsibility of establishing immigration policy and the executive branch is charged with the responsibility of enforcing that policy however aggressive or lack of aggressivity they might have", "and the result is some get through the borders through our ports of entry", "some commit crimes and some of those crimes that are committed are of a very heinous nature", "and the cost of those crimes against this society can be quantified if we can identify the numbers of crimes that are being committed by criminal aliens and in what categories they are in", "where they are being incarcerated what length of terms they are serving and especially mr speaker when they're released", "when they're released from a municipal jail or a county jail or a state penitentiary let alone from a federal institution", "when they are released we need to know if they're released into the hands of ice if they have been processed for deportation if that happens to be the law or if they're released back into the streets", "and if they are we need to ask the question are there committing further crimes so what is the level of effectiveness in our law enforcement system how many what percentage of our overall crimes are being committed by criminal aliens what are those crimes what's the price against society and how does this break down into all of these categories that i've mentioned in a fashion that will allow us as a congress to prudently step back take the empirical data that we are expecting to receive from the general accountability office after the submission of this request and process that into policy that reflects the best interest of the people in the united states of america", "i think this bill is a healthy step in the right direction i think it's the prudent thing to do and i think it says the right thing to the people in america mr speaker", "and i applaud the gentlelady for bringing hr1512 and i support the expansion of scaap funding to those who have been also charged with the crime", "and i would reserve the balance of my time", "gentleman reserves gentlewoman from california", "mr speaker may i inquire how many more speakers that mr king has remaining i have no further speakers", "i reserve the right to close so if the gentleman would like to gentleman from iowa i thank the gentlelady i yield myself as much time as i may consume", "gentleman is recognized", "just in summation mr speaker this is a component of taking this legislation in the right direction", "and it's important that we compensate political subdivisions", "when the federal government's not doing the job they need to be doing this is a natural result of it and i expect that this has come from our request of those political subdivisions although they aren't making this request necessarily in my district", "there are many jails in my district that will be beneficiaries of this piece of legislation", "and so i urge it's adoption and i yield back the balance of my time", "gentleman yields back", "gentlewoman from california", "thank you mr speaker immigration is probably the signature federal policy issue", "try as they might states simply can't fix failures and federal immigration policy on their own", "but when we fall down on the job states cities and counties bear the burden for an immigration system that simply isn't working", "while congress is working on a comprehensive solution to our broken immigration system we must not forget about the local governments who are paying an extremely high cost as a result of our inaction", "in one thousand nine hundred and ninety four congress passed the state criminal alien assistance program scaap to reimburse states and localities for the arrest incarceration and transportation costs associated with criminal aliens", "averting a tidal wave of expenses that could have overwhelmed those state and local budgets", "however in two thousand and three the department of justice reinterpreted the scaap statute and caused as drastic drop in every state's reimbursement", "now states no longer receive reimbursements unless first the criminal alien is convicted of a felony or two misdemeanors", "and second the arrest and conviction occur in the same year", "to add insult to injury president bush has zeroed out scaap in his budget proposals for the last six years", "this means that state and local governments are left to pick up the tab", "every dollar reduction in scaap reimbursements is one less dollar that law enforcement agencies have to hire new officers provide essential training make critical equipment purchases and detain other perhaps more violent inmates", "following the scaap funding cuts in two thousand and three the la county sheriff's department implemented a new early release policy for inmates convicted of misdemeanors", "this means the neighborhoods i represent in southern california are at risk", "sadly these communities are not alone", "across the country the scaap reimbursement cuts have had a domino effect where funding for antigang activities homicide investigations antiterrorism activities and even basic maintenance is cut to pay for expenses associated with incarcerating criminal aliens and suspected criminal aliens", "as arizona county supervisors recently stated this is a huge problem because we can't keep up with fixing roads the other cost of law enforcement and keeping up with health agencies", "while this bill on its own won't solve the fiscal crisis many states now face it will help in the longterm by covering a greater share of costs that properly belong to the federal government", "hr1512 amends the scaap statute so that states and localities can be reimbursed for the cost of incarcerating aliens who are either charged with or convicted of a felony or two misdemeanors just like it was before the doj's reinterpretation in two thousand and three", "this federal investment will allow state and local enforcement agencies to devote more resources to important public safety programs", "law enforcement agencies and coalitions from all over the country including the usmexico border counties coalition the national association of counties the california state association of counties the sheriff's association of texas and the virginia sheriff's association support this bipartisan legislation", "lastly i wanna offer thanks and gratitude to my colleagues on both sides of the aisle for passing this bill unanimously through the judiciary committee and for bringing it to the floor today without any amendments", "we may not agree on many aspects of immigration policy but this bill accomplishes a larger goal making our community safer and for that reason i appreciate your support", "i urge my colleagues to support their local law enforcement agencies by voting for this bill and i yield back the remainder of my time", "all time has expired the question is will the house suspend the rules and pass hr1512 those in favor say aye", "oppose say no", "and the opinion of the chair two thirds being in the affirmative the rules are suspended the bill is passed and without objection the motion to reconsider is laid upon the table", "mr speaker", "for what purpose is the gentleman from i object to the vote on the ground that a quorum is not present and make a point of order the quorum is not present", "pursuant to clause eight of rule twenty and the chair's prior announcement further proceedings on this motion will be postponed the point of no quorum is withdrawn", "pursuant to clause eight of rule twenty proceedings we'll resume on questions previously postponed", "votes will be taken in the following order", "motion to suspend the rules with regard to hr3658 hcongrec three hundred and seventeen hrec one thousand one hundred and nine h2929 in each case the no vote and motion to instruct on hr2419 by the yeas and nays", "the first electronic vote will be conducted as a fifteen minute vote", "remaining electronic votes will be conducted as a five minute vote", "the unfinished business is the question of suspending the rules and passing hr3658 which the clerk will report by title", "hr three thousand six hundred and fifty eight a bill to amend the foreign service act of one thousand nine hundred and eighty to permit rest and recuperation travel to united states territories for members of the foreign service", "the question is will the house suspend the rules and pass the bill so many of us are in favor say aye", "those opposed say no", "in the opinion of the chair two thirds mr speaker being in the affirmative the rules are suspended", "mr speaker gentlemen from new jersey", "i ask for the yeas and nays", "the yeas and nays are requested those favoring a vote by the yeas and nays will rise", "a sufficient number is in the yeas and nays are ordered", "members will record the votes by electronic device this will be a fifteen minute vote to be followed by five minute votes", "a round of a four votes suspension bills bills debated yesterday", "they just wrapped up debate on four or so suspension bills dealing with issues like intellectual property national nurses week and also the african national congress exempting that group's treatment as a terrorist organization in the recent last week's state department annual report on a terrorist organizations", "it's a fifteen minute vote here on the house floor and we've seen some procedural votes already today", "and if on the republican side as they are upset about the democrats bringing the iraq funding bill the additional spending in iraq and afghanistan to the house floor", "plans are to bring it to the house floor by thursday", "so it seems a couple of procedural votes so far in the us house", "meanwhile over in the senate they've been working on faa programs bill they've moved on to the national flood insurance bill and you can follow senate coverage of course on cspan two", "committee we covered earlier a hearing that you'll see later in our program schedule a congressional quarterly writing about the judiciary subcommittee hearing today", "they voted to authorize a subpoena for vice president dick cheney's chief of staff as part of an investigation into the legality of controversy of bush administration counterterrorism policies the subcommittee on the constitution by a voice vote authorized the subpoena of david s addington who served as vice president cheney's legal counsel before becoming his chief of staff in two thousand and five", "that subcommittee met earlier today and again you'll have a chance to see it later in our program schedule"], "name": 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-{"audio_document_id": "house_proceeding_05-21-07.flac", "identifier": "mv_house_proceeding_05-21-07", "text_document_id": "house_proceeding_05-21-07.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [4910, 11050, 5240, 1033, 12690, 7010, 15480, 9000, 12590, 11703, 6470, 9570, 14960, 10160, 7060, 17730, 16930, 11700, 11420, 14570, 1973, 3540, 10650, 3600, 4720, 14260, 9160, 9890, 7550, 11780, 5780, 3880, 11290, 15680, 9990, 6470, 4083, 8870, 8220, 7140, 9640, 8530, 8190, 7440, 12400, 1830, 18360, 4093, 2557, 4340, 2533, 3753, 1550, 10263, 7740, 5010, 4233, 7853, 5960, 9290, 4053, 10470, 9333, 5570, 3923, 11740, 3420, 8310, 2573, 8580, 5730, 5050, 17270, 923, 5783], "label": ["members for lists submitted by the majority and minority leaders for the morning hour debate", "the chair will alternate recognition between the parties with each party limited to thirty minutes and each member other than the majority of minority leaders and the minority equip limited to five minutes", "the chair recognize gentlewoman from california mrs allard for five minutes", "robella allard", "mr speaker to help address domestic violence in our country i rise to announce the reintroduction of the security and financial empowerment act or as it is better known the safe act", "domestic violence is a personal and social tragedy that negatively impacts all of our society", "on average every day on our country more than three women are murdered by their husband or boyfriend and nearly one third of american women report being physically or sexually abused by a husband or boyfriend at some point in their lives", "the physical and psychological consequences of domestic violence are exacerbated by the less obvious economic consequences", "for example one of the key reasons survivors stay in or return to an abusive environment is because they are financially dependent upon their abuser to provide for them and their children", "as a result of the abuse employed women often lose their jobs due to frequent tardiness or absenteeism or because their abuser stalks and harasses them at work", "to help break this cycle of violence i have introduced the safe act with representative ted poe", "the safe act would provide employed survivors of domestic violence with greater employment protections and increased economic stability", "specifically the safe act would enable the survivors of domestic violence to pursue legal assistance and medical care and meet other immediate needs associated with violence in their lives without the fear of losing their job", "if survivors of abuse are fired or forced to leave their job as a result of the abuse the safe act makes them eligible for unemployment benefits", "the safe act also helps employers address the negative impact of domestic violence in the workplace", "while it is true that domestic violence is a personal tragedy it is also true that it has costly negative consequences to employers who pay an estimated three to thirteen billion a year sick leave absenteeism and loss productivity", "the safe act helps businesses save money by helping to reduce absenteeism and lost productivity and by enabling businesses to retain valuable and experienced employees thereby avoiding the high cost associated with training new staff", "in summary the safe act empowers survivors of domestic violence it protects the bottom line of business and it improves the quality of life of our american society", "mr speaker i thank the many advocacy groups for their support of the safe act and for the work they do every day to end domestic and sexual violence in our country", "and i sincerely thank representative poe for his cosponsorship and i look forward to working with him and my colleagues in congress to pass the safe act and empower women against the violence in their life", "i yield back the balance of my time", "the chair recognizes the gentleman from massachusetts mr mcgovern for five minutes", "mr speaker today is my final day on the food stamp challenge an initiative where public officials eat for one week on a food stamp budget twenty one for the week", "that's three dollars a day or one dollar meal", "this amount reflects the national average of food stamp benefit", "mr speaker the purpose of the food stamp challenge is to raise awareness of the crucial role the food stamp program serves in the lives of twenty six million americans each month including over four hundred and fifty thousand in my state of massachusetts", "three of my esteemed colleagues representative joanne emerson jan schakowsky and tim ryan joined me in taking this challenge over the past week", "and although we may be less energetic and perhaps crankier than when we started the challenge nearly a week ago each of us has learned a great deal", "certainly my wife lisa and i have gained valuable insights from our experience on a very tight budget", "we have much more sympathy over how the lack of energy and the hard choices on how to stretch the budget and put food on the table might also stretch one's patience and stress a marriage", "we can imagine the worry and pain of parents if we had to feed our children on this kind of budget", "these are just a few of our reflections over the past week", "yet truly our most valuable lesson came from the scores of individuals who reached out to us to share their personal experiences struggling to put food on the table for their families", "whether they posted comments on our blog or call my office and spoke with my staff these individuals todd lee sent me about how hard working americans managed to provide for themselves and their families in spite of inadequate food stamp benefit levels", "they talked about having to make tough tradeoffs between paying utility bills buying clothes for their children addressing medical needs and purchasing food", "they also described the tradeoff between eating to be healthy or eating to be full", "these kinds of tradeoffs are unfair and unacceptable", "mr speaker america can and should do more for low income individuals and families working hard to survive each and every day", "one way we can do that is through the feeding america's families act a bill that i introduced earlier this month with my colleague congresswoman joanne emerson", "the feeding america's families act which strengthen the food stamp program to better meet the needs of low income americans", "it raises the minimum benefit from ten a month an amount that has not increased since the 1970s to about thirty a month", "it also indexes current benefit levels to the rate of inflation ensuring that the purchasing power of food stamps remains constant", "furthermore because access to the food stamp program should be the right of every lawfully residing person in this country", "the bill restores eligibility to all legal immigrants a provision that was removed in one thousand nine hundred and ninety six", "on sunday may 13th mother's day the new york times editorial stated that and i quote bull string food stamps must be congress's top priority in this year's farm bill end quote", "well i could not agree more", "in my week on the food stamp challenge has not only strengthened my conviction i encourage all of my colleagues to cosponsor hr twenty one twenty nine feeding america's families act and other legislative efforts to bolster and improve our federal hunger and nutrition programs", "the cliche tells us that where there's a will there's a way", "but in this case there was a very clear way", "the question is do we have the political will i hope we do", "mr speaker i yield back the balance of my time", "now recognizes the gentleman from colorado mr salazar for five minutes", "thank you mr speaker", "mr speaker this morning as we stand here in our nation's capitol family and friends in colorado are gathered together to celebrate the life of a truly great american a wonderful human being", "the child of a mexican immigrant eva r baca was born on january 1st one thousand nine hundred and twenty nine in pueblo colorado", "she graduated from pueblo central high school and attended southern colorado state college", "mrs baca as a member of the first graduating class in one thousand nine hundred and sixty five", "as a widowed mother of two she balanced motherhood in her studies while attending adam state college and receiving her masters in education in one thousand nine hundred and sixty eight", "upon graduation mrs baca taught at lakeview and ella elementary schools", "she went on to get her principal certification and in one thousand nine hundred and seventy two she took her first administrative position at the new eastwood heights elementary school", "there she instituted new reading programs for children and for low income families", "eva baca was a strong advocate for the community in which she lived and worked to provide opportunities and increased accessibility of pueblo's isolated east side neighborhoods", "in one thousand nine hundred and eighty three eva baca was named director of title one programs for pueblo school district number sixty a position she held for a decade until her retirement", "eva baca has been recognized throughout colorado and across the country with various honors and awards", "everyone who had the privilege of knowing her has a wonderful story to tell", "most recently she received the lifetime achievement award by the pueblo latino chamber of commerce for her outstanding educational leadership and contributions to the lives of countless children in her community", "on thursday eva baca passed away in pueblo", "she was a loving mother to joyce and robert anderson gilbert baca a cherished grandmother to carl megan lindsey and nick", "she was a fearless educator and a dear friend", "in one thousand nine hundred and ninety three eastwood heights elementary school the school that she gave so many years of her life was renamed in her honor", "today two hundred and fifty children attend mr eva r baca elementary school", "a living tribute to a woman who has spent her life focused on those around her", "john lubbock wrote the important thing is not so much that every child should be taught as that every child should be given the wish to learn for the countless children that eva baca had given the wish to learn we thank her", "i yield back", "pursue into clause 12a of rule one the chair declares the host in recess until noon today"], "name": ["mv_house_proceeding_05-21-07/mv_house_proceeding_05-21-07/house_proceeding_05-21-07_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "mv_house_proceeding_05-21-07/mv_house_proceeding_05-21-07/house_proceeding_05-21-07_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "mv_house_proceeding_05-21-07/mv_house_proceeding_05-21-07/house_proceeding_05-21-07_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "mv_house_proceeding_05-21-07/mv_house_proceeding_05-21-07/house_proceeding_05-21-07_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "mv_house_proceeding_05-21-07/mv_house_proceeding_05-21-07/house_proceeding_05-21-07_DOT_flac_00004.flac", 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-{"audio_document_id": "house_proceeding_09-04-07_00.flac", "identifier": "mv_house_proceeding_09-04-07_00", "text_document_id": "house_proceeding_09-04-07_00.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [2320, 2303, 1050, 1420, 2100, 2890, 5840, 2660, 3690, 6080, 8750, 16640, 18950, 30161, 5943, 3816, 6700, 9340, 9990, 6533, 1998, 12750, 11770, 13940, 4640, 3470, 3144, 3016, 6420, 4330, 3600, 4300, 1820, 1530, 1940, 2160, 3390, 7600, 12010, 5010, 2863, 12447, 13383, 3010, 2128, 2195, 4237, 4560, 1490, 69880, 3340, 8010, 16110, 8840, 9860, 18560, 6040, 3080, 2450, 1330, 3913, 2065, 7010, 2435, 5945, 5600, 4670, 7233, 10010, 19520, 9210, 7620, 4680, 2870, 2773, 2200, 1420, 2263, 2930, 2233, 2500, 2483, 1420, 5403, 9183, 3223, 16340, 8920, 3923, 6743, 2550, 15890, 7520, 4580, 4243, 12370, 2640, 6340, 2240, 6750, 2130, 4060, 1613], "label": ["with the conference in the coming days", "and i reserve the balance of my time", "gentlemen from michigan", "my speaker thank you", "i compliment my colleague", "i thank you for the support on this motion to instruct", "and with that i would also then like a yield three minutes to my colleague from utah mr bishop", "gentleman's recognized for three minutes", "thank you mr speaker allow me rhetorically if i can just to concentrate on one issue", "the one at hand which is the significant proposal the motion to instruct made by the gentleman from michigan", "as a member of the armed services committee as well as the education committee i strongly support this extremely important motion that has been given to us today", "in the day in july when my state celebrates the arrival of the pioneers into salt lake valley in a remote pakistani town the pakistani police were closing in on one house that had been given as an intelligence tip that a top taliban leader was inside", "according to the washington post this taliban leader abdul massoud if i pronounced that properly it's a very short round man in his early 30s who had been active in the taliban commander in pakistan for many years amazingly though this same man had been among the first military detainees at guantanamo and had been released in two thousand and four", "and upon his release what did he do let's go back to pakistan once again working with the taliban helping al qaeda infiltrators coming into the rugged mountains area of pakistan but on this fateful day back in july with a pakistani police closing in this top taliban leader who only the year before had been leading terrorist activities against mosques had kidnapped a couple of chinese engineers and who knows what else pulled the pin on a hand grenade and blew himself up rather than resubmit to the authorities", "it's memorable or reminds one of the extravagances that took place in march of two thousand and four in madrid", "when the subway bombings killed two hundred injured two thousand people", "this alqaeda inspired terrorist activity and the leaders of that were tracked down by spanish authorities", "and as they surrounded the apartment where they had the terrorists the al qaeda terrorists had preplanned their own self martyrdom by having wired their own apartment", "so as the police close in upon them they push the button not only blowing themselves up but also almost imploding the entire building which would have killed hundreds of other innocent victims", "now the reason mr speaker that i present these two anecdotal stories is simply these people are not nice people", "they're murderers of the worst sort", "they're ideologically driven to kill and they would stop at nothing to try and kill as many men women and children if possible in their goals of maximizing the amount of pain and destruction especially those relating to us", "they do not belong on american soil nor do they belong to be released back to their own countries where they can reorganize again in this war not just again on terror but also the war against civilization and basic humanity", "the motion to instruct asked this conference to accept the language passed and similar bill in the senate on an overwhelming ninety four to three vote that rejects transferring a terrorist detained in guantanamo to the united states soil", "our system of our penal system as we envision it is one of rehabilitation", "obviously these people have not to be have not been rehabilitated", "and as we discussed what we will do was our options", "as we discuss any kind of closure that may take place", "and at guantanamo we should all be honestly say which options are not acceptable", "moving any of these prisoners to the united states is simply not acceptable", "returning them to their homes is simply not acceptable", "destroying the intelligence value we have at guantanamo is simply not acceptable", "the sense of the congress resolution", "gentleman's time is expired", "yield my colleague and extra minute", "gentlemen is recognized for an extra minute", "i thank the gentleman from michigan and the speaker and i'll talk faster", "this sense of the congress resolution simply is one of those things that this body the people's body the house of representatives should overwhelmingly support", "i cannot imagine anyone honestly believing it is a good idea to close guantanamo and bring these individuals into our neighborhoods and into our backyard nor to release them back to their country of origin where they be free to reorganize themselves", "as mr mcconnell said in the florida bay this is not a motion simply for the status quo", "flexibility of what are our choices will be would still be allowed", "but it does clearly say that the one option that is not acceptable would be closing of guantanamo base with the only option being a removing these people and bringing them back into our neighborhoods back into our homes and back on american soil", "and for that i appreciate what the gentleman from michigan has done in bringing this once again to our intention so that we can join the senate in making sure that this is very clear of what is not our policy option with that mr speaker i'd go back to the balance of my time", "gentlemen from california i reserve the balance of my time", "gentleman reserves the balance of his time", "i'll reserve the balance of my time", "i'll be the last speaker and i'll close as soon as my colleague yields", "okay the gentleman has no further speakers then mr speaker if i may yield myself this time as i may consume", "gentleman california is recommended", "i just want to point out for a number of members who have asked about what's the relationship of this reconciliation to the loan scandals that the nation was witness to earlier this year this legislation does not contain that the language of the sunshine act that we passed overwhelmingly in may of this year that will be contained in the higher education act that this house and the senate plan to do soon it's in the senate bill and we've passed the sunshine act as members will recall that this was legislation that falls on the heels of public reports of colleges and lenders and the relationships between colleges and lenders and special relationships were developed in some cases for the exchange of gifts financial favors holidays special treatment two people working for the colleges that were steering people to a particular lender for their loans whether or not that was in the best interest of the student or not really didn't come into play", "these practices had gone on for a considerable period of time", "in some cases they've been brought to the attention of the department of education by the inspector general they were not properly dealt with", "and the state's attorney the attorney general of the state of new york mr cuomo brought them to the nation's attention with his investigation of some of the largest lending institutions in these practices and entered into a number of consent agreements", "with those individuals we had hearings on this on this matter and the failure of oversight by both the congress and the department", "and we passed the sunshine act in reaction to that to those hearings that we had that again it was passed on a strong bipartisan vote", "we think these two things are connected in the terms of our are now removing the access and subsidies that were used in many instances to grease these relationships for the benefit of the lenders and not for the benefit of the students and their families who were borrowing the money to pay for their college education", "so i just wanted to bring the members up to snuff on that on that matter", "and with that i'll yield back the balance of my time", "gentlemen yields back", "gentlemen from michigan", "mr speaker i'll yield myself as much time as i cause i shall consume", "gentleman's recognized", "speaker the senate rejected transferring alqaeda terrorists from gitmo to our homeland", "that was a wise decision", "that is a decision that my colleagues here in the house should support tonight", "gitmo is a facility that is working it's working in many different ways", "it's keeping terrorists these terrorists away from the homeland", "it's providing us with an opportunity to get the information that may be necessary and maybe helpful in keeping america safe", "when the senate acted they acted overwhelmingly ninety four to three to say make sure that these individuals do not come to the united states", "provides us with the alternatives and the flexibility that as we move forward and defeating radical jihadists that we will have the strategies in place to keep us safe to get the information that we need to provide us with a background to implement the correct strategies", "we are safer keeping these terrorists in guantanamo bay cuba five hundred and thirty eight miles or five hundred and twenty eight miles away from the homeland", "i encourage my colleagues to vote for this motion to instruct conferees it is a good motion", "it's a good decision a good direction that was put forward by the members of the other body", "and i hope that we stand with them tonight", "and with that i yield back the balance of my time", "all time has expired without objection", "the previous question is ordered", "the question is on the motion to instruct", "those in favor please say aye aye", "those opposed please say no", "the ayes have it in the opinion of the chair", "mr speaker i asked for the yeas and nays", "the yeas and nays are requested", "all those in favor of the taking this vote by the yeas and nays will rise and remain standing until counted", "a sufficient number having risen the yeas and nays are ordered pursuant to clause eight of rule twenty further proceedings on this motion will be postponed", "the chairman lays before the house the following communications", "the honorable the speaker house of representatives madam this is to formally notify you pursuant to rule eight of the rules of the house of representatives that i have been served with a judicial subpoena for documents issued by the united states district court for the middle district of pennsylvania", "after consulting with the office of general counsel i have determined that compliance with the subpoena is consistent with the privileges and rights of the house", "signed sincerely john e peterson member of congress", "pursuant to clause eight of rule twenty proceedings will resume on questions previously postponed", "votes will be taken in the following order", "motions suspend the rules with regard to hr694 and hr3020 and motion to instruct campari's on hr26696 and each case by the yeas and nays", "the vote on the motion to suspend the rules with regard to hr552 will be taken tomorrow", "the first electronic vote will be conducted as a fifteen minute vote", "remaining electronic votes will be conducted as five minute votes", "the unfinished business is on the motion of the gentleman from washington mr bear to suspend the rules and pass hr6094 as amended on which the yeas and nays are ordered", "the clerk will report the title of the bill", "hr694 a bill to establish a digital and wireless network technology program", "and for other purposes", "the question is will the house suspend rules and pass the bill as amended those in favor we'll vote aye", "those opposed will vote no", "members will record their votes by electronic device", "this is a fifteen minute vote"], "name": ["mv_house_proceeding_09-04-07_00/mv_house_proceeding_09-04-07_00/house_proceeding_09-04-07_00_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "mv_house_proceeding_09-04-07_00/mv_house_proceeding_09-04-07_00/house_proceeding_09-04-07_00_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "mv_house_proceeding_09-04-07_00/mv_house_proceeding_09-04-07_00/house_proceeding_09-04-07_00_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "mv_house_proceeding_09-04-07_00/mv_house_proceeding_09-04-07_00/house_proceeding_09-04-07_00_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "mv_house_proceeding_09-04-07_00/mv_house_proceeding_09-04-07_00/house_proceeding_09-04-07_00_DOT_flac_00004.flac", 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-{"audio_document_id": "house_proceeding_10-23-07.flac", "identifier": "mv_house_proceeding_10-23-07", "text_document_id": "house_proceeding_10-23-07.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [53713, 6290, 4110, 4683, 25400, 2130, 19191, 11269, 16090, 5649, 9594, 940, 4180, 6570, 6800, 5980, 9740, 7160, 3550, 10380, 3191, 2669, 15240, 18010, 10360, 10330, 8670, 2302, 4708, 6640, 17312, 4211, 7390, 833, 3467, 11180, 8085, 11155, 12960, 5940, 8260, 6593, 4143, 8699, 12489, 11522, 11680, 10770, 4080, 4353, 7769, 8060, 8330, 9810, 8690, 11560, 6190, 8940, 7773, 5904, 5283, 3847, 11223, 7730, 10360, 4250, 7643, 2548, 12679, 4100, 10530, 850, 6770, 11710, 7940, 4690, 3500, 5011, 16739, 9630, 15310, 3650, 7130, 5669, 4551, 5761, 19319, 12909, 7584, 1595, 7135, 12820, 7860, 13560, 39020, 1900, 7066, 13870, 20390, 11420, 4840, 5630, 2980, 1990, 9830, 7335, 5577, 11380, 17064, 8546, 16785, 13955, 833, 5660, 833, 5117, 7480, 13020, 12510, 2090, 9510, 8760, 833, 6770, 10029, 9690, 12670, 7640, 6110, 8640, 4270, 5957, 3693, 6620, 8034, 1936, 9445, 3505, 9600, 9340, 13860, 23130, 9170, 11580, 6590, 6150, 2684, 1559, 1830, 9250, 1860, 4263, 12977, 5611, 15452, 3456, 11874, 9513, 4500, 6080, 3500, 5138, 2445, 12637, 9790, 6043, 3110, 8870, 24950, 5450, 9620, 3223, 7401, 5386, 4854, 16636, 2410, 18245, 8071, 2406, 15768, 6540, 3110, 5230, 1170, 10916, 2734, 2700, 24579, 9051, 8030, 11911, 11751, 13519, 13089, 15633, 3340, 6183, 833, 3461, 3958, 2795, 4920, 3860, 3333, 1500], "label": ["hey we come humbly thankfully to you humbly for allowing each of us to be in our positions and thankfully for your guidance to this time none of us knows what this day holds but we trust you to see us through every decision we make help us to realize that is by your hand that we are free and well grant us wisdom to know the right thing to do in every decision and give us the strength to follow through with what is right regardless of the consequences within the hands of these public servants rest the destiny of this great nation help this great body to bring peace to our nation and the world give them the wisdom of solomon the strength of samson the faith of abraham and the ability of david to accomplish the challenges we face in jesus name amen", "the chair has examined the journal of the last day's proceedings and announces to the house for approval thereof", "pursuant to clause one of rule one the journal stands approved", "the pledge of allegiance will be led by the gentlemen from arkansas mr boozman", "well everyone join me including those in the gallery without objection the gentlemen from arkansas mr boozman is recognized for one minute", "thank you madam speaker", "madam speaker it's my pleasure to introduce a good friend a man who ministers to the men and women of western arkansas a man of god our guests chaplain the reverend bobby l johnson of van buren arkansas he is being pastor of first assembly of god in van buren since june one thousand nine hundred and eighty", "since then the church has grown from just over two hundred sunday school to over two thousand placing it among the fastest growing sunday schools in arkansas and the nation", "his mission is bringing the world to is bringing the word to the people through his extensive outreach from mobile ministry to television and over the internet a graduate of both the university of central arkansas and evangelists college in missouri", "pastor johnson has taught public high school and pastored three other churches in arkansas", "it is my honor to welcome pastor johnson to the house of representatives and thank him for his service to his calling and to the people of arkansas i yield back", "gentlemen yields back", "the chair will now entertain requests for one minute speeches", "for what purpose does the gentleman from wisconsin rise without objections gentleman's recognized", "madam speaker our nation's values are reflected in how we spend taxpayers hardearned money", "yesterday rather than encouraging us to invest in the good health of our children here at home", "the president asked for permission to spend two hundred billion in iraq well it's okay to ask and it's okay to respond by saying no thank you", "the health of our nation's children is more valuable than making more of a mess in iraq my friends enough is enough", "it's time to spend our tax dollars right here at home", "last week forty four republicans joined the democratic majority in attempting to override the president's veto of the state children's health insurance program known as schip", "this issue is not going away we will prevail", "it's a matter of how long it will take", "and here are some facts to keep in mind schip saves tax dollars by sending children in need to the doctor's office not to the costly emergency room and over ninety of those in schip earn less than forty one thousand a year", "there is a better way of doing things in america and by working together we'll find it and guarantee access to healthcare for all those in need and i yield back what purpose does the gentlemen from south carolina rise madam speaker asked permission to address the house without objection gentleman's recognized", "madam speaker last week america's number one radio personality rush limbaugh auctioned off for charity a letter shamefully signed by a group of forty one democrat senators", "the letter to limbaugh's employer attack rush for comments blatantly distorted by media matters regarding persons who had lied about their service in the military", "i am happy to report that the senate letter of infamy was auctioned for twenty one million an amount rush says he will generously match", "that brings the total to forty two million", "the money will be donated to the marine corps law enforcement foundation", "this charitable organization provides financial assistance to the children of fallen marines and law enforcement officers", "i wish to commend rush for overcoming what was clearly a political ploy to chill his first amendment rights of free speech rush took an abuse of power by democrat leadership and turn it into something positive between rush limbaugh and senate democrats america knows who really supports our troops", "in conclusion god bless our troops and we'll never forget september eleven", "what purpose does the gentleman from missouri rise without objection gentleman's recognized", "madam speaker", "i am very pleased to have the opportunity to address the house", "i am excited to be a democrat and i always take pleasure in giving reasons for why i am a member of the democratic party", "it says taking control of congress democrats have worked to pass legislation that will help families once again live the american dream", "and over the last six years college costs have shot up forty putting higher education out of reach for most americans", "i have one son in college today and i can tell you that i'm excited over the fact that we passed and the president did in fact sign the college cost reduction act of two thousand and seven", "this law is the single largest increase in college aid since the gi bill", "it strengthens the middleclass by cutting interest rates in half and subsidises student loans over the next five years", "we are also able in this bill to increase the maximum pell grant scholarship by five hundred", "madam speaker i am pleased i'm excited to be a democrat", "what purpose does the gentleman from louisiana rise without objection gentleman's recognized", "madam speaker schip continues to be used as a political game by washington liberals sensible effective compromise does exist to bring meaningful bipartisan support for this necessary program", "the kids first bill of which i'm a cosponsor adds thirteen million new children to the schip program by two thousand and twelve it encourages the states to move children to private coverage", "kids first provides fourteen billion in new schip allotments and it includes four hundred million in grants for outreach and enrollment this is a sensible approach", "i support schip and i'm committed to ensuring that it's a successful program that helps children who need it and the children for whom it was really intended for those who are in poverty", "it makes schip a program for those who it was intended for", "i thank my colleagues representatives camp and worship for their work on this bill", "and i asked my colleagues on the other side of the aisle to join us in this compromise approach to help put our poor children first and a yield back now it's my time", "what purpose does the gentlemen from washington state rise without objection gentleman's recognized", "thank you madam speaker i rise today to pay tribute to a us army degrade from fort lewis washington that is served with distinction in iraq", "on october 11th the last of the roughly three thousand eight hundred men and women of the third brigade second infantry division we turned home to fort lewis after completing their second deployment in iraq", "the arrowhead brigade has been a trailblazer for the army as the first brigade to be outfitted with the stryker combat vehicles the first striker brigade to serve in iraq", "and now the first striker brigade to complete two tours in iraq during their recent deployment the arrowhead brigade supported operations in mosul baghdad baqubah and other critical areas", "on several occasions they were asked to secure down us aircraft and the sites of numerous suicide attacks", "in addition to the arrowhead brigade constantly remain prepared to mobilize and deploy anywhere in iraq for any number of contingencies within twenty four hours", "and tribute to their brave service seven members of the brigade were awarded the silver star the united states third highest award for combat valor", "in the course of their deployment the arrowhead brigade lost forty eight of their comrades with another seven hundred wounded", "i want to express my deep condolences to the three two brigade and the families of those fallen soldiers", "their contribution and sacrifice will not be forgotten", "the men and women of the three two brigade have done everything our country has asked of them and more we all should have the utmost respect and admiration for their service and sacrifice", "gentlemen yields back for what purpose does the gentleman from nebraska rise without objection gentleman's recognized", "thank you madam speaker recently congress passed house resolution five hundred and ninety supporting the goals of domestic violence awareness month while raising awareness of domestic violence throughout our country", "i am here today to voice my support for everyone impacted by this horrible nightmare", "this is an issue which affects millions in urban and rural areas alike it crosses economic lines geographic lines and ethnic lines", "no segment of our population is immune", "one out of five women and one out of fourteen men have been domestically assaulted at some point in their lives in my home state of nebraska there are more than five thousand eight hundred protection orders needed for those living in fear of violence", "domestic violence is an issue which too often is swept under the rug or ignored", "so as part of the domestic violence awareness month i'm wearing a purple ribbon to raise awareness about the crime of domestic abuse as we work toward ending this violence thank you madam speaker i yield back", "gentlemen yields back", "for what purpose does the gentleman from new york rise without objection gentleman's recognized", "madam speaker last week despite the best efforts of the democratic majority and about forty four republicans we were unable to override the president's veto of a health insurance for the children of poor and working families", "now i listened to the argument that we can't afford providing health care for our children despite the fact that our schip program was entirely paid for", "look ma'am speaker i believe that a strong nation can do both", "you can be fiscally responsible and you can take care of your children", "good families managed to be fiscally responsible and take care of their children it's just a matter of priorities", "and i will say madam speaker that i was struck by some of the the miss priorities that i heard about the same people who said that we can't afford health insurance for our children increased spending seven a year since two thousand and one and voted to increase our debt limit four out of the past five years", "the difference is that they spent on the wrong things no spending we can't afford healthcare for children but billions of dollars in tax cuts for the most profitable oil companies on earth", "we can't afford spending for health insurance for children but billions of dollars in spending and no bid contracts for halliburton we've increased the debt we're putting in our kids shoulders and now we're telling our kids we can't afford to help them with the xrays i thank you speaker and i'll yield back the balance of my time", "what purpose does the gentleman from pennsylvania rise without objection gentleman's recognized", "madam speaker in the early hours of may 11th seven us soldiers were on lookout near patrol base in iraq", "sometime before dawn heavily armed al qaeda gunman made coordinated surprise attacks on the soldiers", "four of the soldiers were killed and three others taken hostage", "what happened next is a travesty and a failure of our public policy and support of the troops in the field", "a search to rescue the men began immediately but was brought to a halt because of our fisa law by the need for military lawyers to jump through legal hoops in order to gain approval to conduct the surveillance of terrorists communications ten hours passed before they were granted such permission", "the search for a kidnapped us soldier was halted so that lawyers could find grounds to have the attorney general grant special permission to listen in on the communications between individuals in iraq", "our fisa law as the president has requested needs reform not the flawed bill the democrats are seeking to pass here", "i yield back", "gentleman yields back for what purpose does the gentleman from new hampshire rise gentleman's recognized", "thank you madam speaker last week the rubber stamp republicans in this house once again held true to their name by voting to stand with the president and rejecting healthcare coverage for ten million american children", "the spending priorities of the president's republican allies in the house are simply out of line with the priorities of the american people", "in fact the eighty six of americans who support this bipartisan chip reauthorization might be interested to know that for the cost of just thirty seven days in iraq we could provide healthcare coverage to ten million children", "you have the president's irresponsible openended commitment to the occupation in iraq continues while the number of american children without access to healthcare keeps climbing madam speaker yesterday the president asked congress to borrow another one hundred and ninety six billion to continue his failed blank check no plan policy in iraq but he and his republican friends in this body apparently feel that spending thirty five billion on a highly successful program that provides healthcare to one insured children is excessive it's time for republicans to stop blindly following the president and start helping american families", "thank you madam speaker i yield back", "for what purpose does the gentle lady from minnesota rise gentle lady is recognized", "thank you madam speaker i want to bring before the body this morning an issue that needs more attention not less than that's the issue of the huge blob that ate the american dream called the alternative minimum tax", "one thing that we're seeing is that the alternative minimum tax madam speaker is set to rise at a level so unprecedented the american economy has not experienced anything like this in the last forty years right now the tax burden for the average american and to the economy is about one hundred and eighty five of gdp", "if we don't scale back on the alternative minimum tax we're looking at the tax burden of gdp being almost twenty four by mid century", "we have never seen this level of taxation and our gdp", "this means this money will come out of the pockets of the american taxpayer", "and we'll go into the coffers of the federal government", "this is a big concern madam speaker", "one that i'm very concerned about as i know most of the members in this chamber are as well in one thousand nine hundred and sixty nine when alternative minimum tax came in it was one hundred and fifty five people", "madam speaker i will close with the fact that this year we're looking at twenty three million americans impacted i thank you", "what purpose does the gentle lady from new hampshire rise gentlelady's recognized", "madam speaker yesterday president bush asked congress to rubber stamp his plan to spend one hundred and ninety six billion next year on the war in iraq", "and i have to tell the president not a nickel more for this war since the beginning of the year congressional democrats have been trying to change our war policy from one where our troops will stay there for more than a decade to one where we have responsible redeployment and bring the troops home next year", "the president believes it's acceptable to spend billions of dollars in iraq while important domestic priorities here in our own country go unmet", "while the president was crafting his one hundred and ninety six billion war supplement the democratic house approved appropriation bills that included targeted investments in our priorities here at home education health care for veterans more police on the streets caring for american families", "madam speaker as congress begins to examine the president's latest war funding bill we will once again demand that the president change course in iraq and to get a responsible plan to bring our troops home within the year", "thank you", "what purpose does the gentleman from florida rise without objection gentleman's recognized", "madam speaker", "i rise today to acknowledge the pro democracy rally that took place in belarus on the 7th of october", "during this event thousands of protesters flooded the streets of the capital city in support of democracy and to demand free and fair elections", "the protesters shouted belarus in europe and they waved european union flags to express their outrage against alexander lukashenko that's the person who the state department has labeled the last dictator of europe", "it is time for this dictator who cheated his way into office by stealing the elections last year to step aside to step down and let the people decide who should lead their country through legitimate and clean elections", "the world must not tolerate evil dictators", "and this one must step aside to allow belarus to join the modern world rather than to suffer under the oppressive and selfish rule of one man i applaud madam speaker", "i applaud the courage of the protestors who took to the streets in belarus and i stand with them in their quest for freedom democracy and the rule of law thank you madam", "gentleman yields back", "for what purpose does the gentlemen from missouri rise without objection gentleman's recognized", "thank you madam speaker president bush and about ten house republicans are all that stand between ten million children in the healthcare they need and deserve", "i'm deeply disappointed in the president's dumbfounding veto of the schip bill and they reneged on his pledge he made when running for reelection in two thousand and four", "the bill to reauthorize schip continues coverage for six million kids currently covered and provided incentives for another four million kids who have been falling through the cracks of the healthcare system", "the program continues to focus on low and moderate income families who are on too much for the medicaid program but can't afford private healthcare", "the big momentum behind this historic bill is growing exponentially it will not be stopped", "to those blocking the schip reauthorization from becoming law i say either get on board get out of the way or get run over", "the children's health care bill is on its way either with or without you", "schip supporters are even more determined than ever to get this done by the mid november deadline", "let's go i'll finish this job for children's health care in america", "it's fourth and goal on the one yard line working together we can overpower anyone left blocking the way i yield back", "what purpose does the gentleman from california rise gentleman's recognized", "thank you very much madam speaker", "as we listened to the comments of our colleagues on the other side of the aisle it is obvious that what they intend to do is to make this schip week s chip month", "and you kind of wonder why they are doing this", "we'll reflect back on last week when we had a most important vote scheduled for this floor that somehow was removed it was called the fisa vote", "the question of how we enable ourselves to protect us and our children and our grandchildren against the attacks of those who are terrorists around the world", "we do it in many ways but absolutely essential is intelligence the fisa bill the foreign intelligence surveillance act would have been destroyed by the bill placed on the floor last week by the majority the socalled restore act", "it actually gave greater protection to osama bin laden in a telephone conversation than an american citizen in the united states accused of a crime restore what does it mean repeal effective surveillance techniques opposing real enemies go out to nasa and see what they're doing understand what we need to do in this country", "and then bring a bill back to this floor that restores the gentleman's time is exceeding ability of the united states to find out about our enemies before the attack", "what purpose does the gentleman from tennessee rise gentleman's recognized for one moment one minute", "thank you madam speaker the city of memphis tennessee has lost one of its finest citizens", "kenneth williams senior kenneth williams senior passed away last night he was a pastor", "he was a two time city councilman", "he was a father", "he was a family man", "he was a leader in our community for thirty years he was the pastor at oliver baptist church and very highly respected in the community and the clergy", "and for eight years he was a city councilman", "one time as a district councilman community known as orange mound", "and then when he saw a higher calling and a need to address a higher subject he ran it against an incumbent city councilman at the time on heard of and was elected at large one of the first africanamericans elected at large to the memphis city council", "he was also a postal service employee and had a career there and rose to the ranks of director of personnel", "for that reason this house and this week with the president's action the post office at third street in memphis tennessee will be now be named the kenneth t william senior postal building that is attribute to his work and to all postal employees", "you had a family of which the city of memphis is proud", "his son kenneth jr is a pastor and a member of the school board his son kirk william is a world renowned saxophonist and his other son kevin is a musician with a contract and a poet", "there are many many great families in the city of memphis to get involved in politics but none greater than the williams the hair of the hypocrite never was upon this family", "and the idea of discrimination and bigotry or intolerance never graced them either", "he was a leader in biracial politics and activities in the city of memphis", "he was a leader in being bipartisan as well", "there've been few people like kenneth william senior in the city of memphis there'll be few to come", "i share his loss greatly", "he was a supporter of mine who although he'd had a stroke and had difficulty walking came down and did a political ad for me when he could hardly get up the stairs and on television it was like an angel speaking", "when john conyers came to memphis in february he made it up a whole flight of stairs to see john conyers and a happier man i have not seen", "he knew the post office was being named for him before he passed i'm happy he knew that i'm happy i knew him", "we've lost a great leader thank you madam speaker", "for what purpose does the gentlemen from iowa rise without objection the gentleman's recognized", "madam speaker it's clear that president bush has no intention of changing the course in iraq in any way before he leaves office in january two thousand and nine in fact both the president of the pentagon have recently said that they expect american combat troops to be in iraq for another ten years and just yesterday the president requested an additional one hundred and ninety six billion to fund the war in iraq for the upcoming year", "the democratic congress rejects the notion that our troops are needed in iraq for the next decade", "if the iraqi government knows that we're going to be there for ten years they have absolutely no reason to make any of the tough political compromises that they promised they would make", "when the troop escalation began earlier this year", "instead we support a responsible redeployment out of iraq so that the iraqis can finally take control of their own fate", "and so that we are no longer sending more than two billion there every week", "madam speaker house democrats are committed to bringing our troops home but we can't do it alone", "i hope this outrageous funding request serves as a wake up call to my republican friends and starts a new dialogue to bring our troops home i yield back the balance of my what purpose does the gentlemen from connecticut rise for one minute and revising steps", "without objection gentleman's recognized", "thank you madam speaker when will it end with blackwater probably not soon enough just yesterday the committee on oversight and government reform released findings that show that blackwater has potentially misclassified hundreds of workers in iraq and afghanistan evading taxes and costing the taxpayers in the united states at least thirty million", "this comes a few weeks after the same committee discovered that blackwater is raking in potentially a hundred million dollars in profit off of their government contracts", "we've got to get this situation under control", "and that's why i along with mr welsh and chairman waxman have introduced legislation to require that private government contractors receiving more than eighty of their revenue from federal contracts like blackwater must disclose the salaries of their most highly compensated employees", "it just isn't right for executives at blackwater anywhere else to make their fortune off of war profiteering", "it's our money and we deserve to know how it's being used", "i urge my colleagues to join me in supporting this common sense legislation i yield back the balance of my time", "gentleman yield back", "for what purpose does the gentleman from ohio rise the amount of speaker on behalf of the courageous men and women of armed forces who are putting their lives on the line for our freedom and security", "i offer a privilege resolution that is at the desk", "the clerk hill will report the resolution", "house resolution seven hundred and sixty seven whereas united states soldiers and personnel in iraq are fighting to protect innocent americans from being attacked by alqaeda and radical jihadists who are determined to kill the american people whereas on october 18th two thousand and seven and debate of hr nine hundred and seventy six children's health insurance program reauthorization act", "the member from california mr stark stated you don't have money to fund the war on children but you're going to spend it to blow up innocent people", "if we can get enough kids to grow old enough for you to send it to iraq to get their heads blown off with the president's amusement", "whereas on october 18th two thousand and seven and a press release representative pete stark is quoted as saying i respect needed the commander in chief who keeps them in harm's way nor the chicken hawks in congress", "whereas the member from california mr stark engaged in personally abusive language toward the president and members of the house including the use of language that impugns their motives", "whereas the member from california mr stark dishonors not only the commander in chief but the thousands of courageous men and women in america's armed forces who believe in their mission and are putting their lives on the line for our freedom and security", "whereas the member from california mr stark has failed to retract a statement and apologize to the members of the house our commander in chief and the families of our soldiers and commanders fighting terror overseas", "resolved that the member from california mr stark by his despicable conduct has dishonored himself and brought discredit to the house and merits that sensor they house for the same resolved that the member from california mr stark is here by so sensors", "the resolution the resolution qualifies", "for what purpose does the gentlemen from mississippi rise madam speaker i move to lay the resolution on the table", "question is on the motion", "all in favor say aye aye opposed say no", "no opinion of the chair that i have it", "madam speaker i asked for the yeas and nays", "the yeas and nays are requested those favoring a vote by the yeas and nays will rise", "a sufficient number having risen the yeas and nays are ordered", "members will record their votes by electronic 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-{"audio_document_id": "Journal062218-CL19.flac", "identifier": "snafuinfinityJournal062218-CL19", "text_document_id": "Journal062218-CL19.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [2880, 4800, 1110, 14580, 9970, 8880, 8970, 8530, 16330, 2990, 13730, 3990, 2860, 7940, 4710, 2180, 8060, 5860, 3630, 2170, 5430, 9030, 3440, 3870, 2740, 7290, 5340, 1240, 20780, 4470, 4840, 5120, 5530, 4020, 2226, 14364, 2450, 10140, 8253, 5293, 3387, 3823, 2860, 8660, 4990, 3508, 7782, 13910, 2500, 2583, 3140, 833, 5060, 2650, 6540, 8200, 3147, 16540, 4310, 2650, 3900, 35650, 4550, 3087, 12650, 3260, 4692, 8968, 3170, 954, 959, 9072, 7480, 10150, 13430, 6460, 1540, 8360, 2083, 12200, 17720, 4410, 923, 7739, 1870, 10990, 3360, 9260, 3670, 5390, 1360, 1100, 8710, 2010, 4570, 8590, 2750, 2792, 14868, 1990, 4900, 11640, 3002, 6088, 7383, 8150, 1500, 1080, 1680, 2150, 1560, 13160, 9990, 2220, 6880, 8980, 5530, 9700, 7683, 2107, 6230, 4520, 5920, 4770, 1950, 13140, 6310, 3260, 1800, 7879, 1661, 9809, 2341, 4610, 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host chair this week as i've been a volunteer here at the belmont media center for over twenty five years that goes back to a time when there was only one local access channel and the studio was working under a different name in a much smaller space over at the high school", "i also produce and cohost my own show time out for sports talk which just like belmont journal airs on the bmc public access channel and can also be viewed on demand at belmontmediaorg", "we begin this weeks show with an important reminder about the upcoming trash and recycling collection program here in town", "first of all the new carts that you'll be using for the collection program they're going to be delivered during the first or the last week in june and in the first week of july", "so over the next couple of weeks if you're not going to be home during that time just make sure you make the necessary arrangements so that the carts will be placed on your property", "and if you're looking to purchase any overflow bags for the collection program you can get those at hollingsworth five and ten located on trapelo road the hillside garden true value on blanchard road and also at the dpw office on moore street", "now time for a fun fact", "did you know that there are three hundred and fifty one town clerks that work all across this commonwealth i bring that up because earlier this month the massachusetts town clerks association awarded belmont's own ellen o'brien cushman as the massachusetts town clerk of the year", "chosen the best at her job out of three hundred and fifty one worthy candidates", "ellen has been belmont's town clerk since two thousand and ten", "and in this segment town administrator patrice garvin tells belmont journal why she submitted ellen's name and what ellen herself thinks about receiving this honor", "honestly ellen cushman is by far the best clerk i've ever seen", "she's smart she's dedicated", "she lays out things in a very clear and concise and logical way which i really respond to", "i've had lot of fun working with her and i believe that good work should be recognized", "and when the nomination papers came through i couldn't find any reason not to", "so i submitted her name", "i put in a couple of things that i've observed even in my short time being here", "and then that was enough to get the nomination committee to notice ellen and recognize her in this great way", "you know it's a huge honor for not just me for my office", "i mean we work really hard and i'm the leader of an amazing group of people", "i mean that's really what that means to me", "obviously we all know anybody who works in an office that has more than one person because the town clerk is not just the town clerk it's the town clerk's office", "and so with meg and nancy and dan together we're a pretty formidable team", "i think that's what that means", "and we hope that we take care of the people in the town of belmont that they come to us with their issues and they just sometimes need a little bit of extra guidance or handholding and they can come to us and also rely on us for the more predictable parts of our job like running helping to run town meeting or the elections and produce their vital records and marry them etc", "i mean it's a pretty big deal that people put their trust in us to do that", "for many belmont residents the opening of the underwood pool marks the official start to summer", "the new underwood public swimming pool opens for its fourth season on saturday june 23rd", "belmont journal's frdrique rigoulot talks with frank sartori about keeping the pristine pool clean", "it's about ten to twelve weeks to prepare the pool", "and we begin around the first week of april", "the parks division comes in and does an initial inspection to see how badly the winter has affected our pool that pretty much governs how much work we have to do in the beginning", "how much time we need to prepare for the opening", "all of this particular week we're trying to get the water cleared up and running properly in balance so that the pool can open on saturday", "it has to meet the state requirements or the priority levels and the balancing of the ph and chlorine", "so the ideal range for the chlorine level is between one and three parts per million", "the ideal range for the ph level is between seventy two and seventy four", "and we try to maintain those ranges consistently throughout the year", "the parks division checks it five times a day", "we also have life guards that check the chemical levels several times a day and we have spot inspections from the health department", "the main thing we do is to try to keep as much debris out of the water as possible", "maintain bacteria level checks daily", "we used the automated vacuums in the evening to clean some of the sediment around the bottom of the pool", "it's a neptune benson sand bottom filtration system with an ultraviolet disinfection backup system which helps break down bacteria in the water", "so we use less chemicals that way", "the facility is fully ada compliant", "we try to make everybody happy and to accommodate everyone", "enjoy", "time now for this week in the belmontonian with editor and publisher franklin tucker", "franklin good to see you once again", "and i guess there was a meeting of a task force in town this week with some big decisions coming out", "that's right it was a recommendation by the superintendent's vocational education options working group and that has an acronym", "yeah which we don't have enough time in the segment right exactly to tell you what it is", "and it was established after belmont decided back in october of two thousand and sixteen to leave the minuteman school district because of differences in what they should be paying in terms of the capital costs for building the new school", "which surprisingly enough is being built faster than they ever thought it was going to be built", "and it's going online in two thousand and nineteen", "so maybe that's something we can look for in our high school", "but so we go back to the task force and what they decided is that after doing a lot of reviewing and looking at other options including programs such as a collaborative among cambridge and somerville and waltham where they have vocational programs and also looking at shawsheen tech as another option they decided that the best thing for our thirty to forty kids who go each year to a vocational education is to return to the minuteman school district as a full member", "now i don't know how that's going to be how people are going to react to that", "but this has been a very thoughtful taskforce", "it really looked at everything that we were that belmont students need whether it was social emotional and extracurricular and what type of education they're going to receive", "and it just turned out that minuteman was the best buy for the dollar", "does some of it comes down to location as well just the fact that minutemans a little bit closer than some of the other options", "that's another big thing you can basically take kids and put them on a bus and bring them to i guess now the school is no longer in lexington", "it's now in lincoln but it's just feet away", "sure right down trapelo road", "exactly", "and that closeness will also allow them to take extracurricular such as sports which is always important for kids", "so now what's going to go forward is that the superintendent john fallon will be bringing this to the board of selectmen", "again it's just a recommendation they don't have to follow it but it is a very like i said very thorough look at this at this need that we have", "and then it will likely go to town meeting probably not in the special town meeting in the fall but probably in the annual town meeting because the decision does not have to be made until september of two thousand and twenty", "while we're on the subject of high schools the belmont high school you actually have some official dates as to when the new high school is going to be built", "that's right", "skanska which is the construction company that is building the is that another acronym no no no that's a big it sounds like one", "it's a big swedish company okay", "they are they've been talking with the architects which is perkin and will and skanska is also the firm that built at the wellington elementary school", "so they're familiar with belmont and they've come out with a four year plan and starting as soon as well first of all the money has to be paid for it you know they have to the town has to pay for the debt exclusion which could be up to a one hundred and twenty million dollars", "it could be even less than that but they have designs already done it's beautiful", "it looks great", "and if the money is approved then they will be putting piles pilings into the ground in april next year", "so we're talking very quickly", "they're going to be moving as faster than most people think because that's when they'll really begin starting the first construction", "which will be the new high school section will be the nine to twelve", "and that will be basically from the from where the gym is where the field house is all the way out to about where harris field is", "and they'll be building that and not touching the high school that is", "oh well for more on all these stories don't forget to follow the belmontonian on both facebook and twitter", "thanks for joining us this week franklin", "thank you very much", "after six years on the job belmont high school principal daniel richards is stepping down at the end of this month to pursue similar opportunities closer to his home on the north shore", "as he leaves his office on concord ave", "richards talks to belmont journal about the challenges that lay ahead for the high school", "there's been a variety of them you know budget we challenged with every year but also just the growth and the culture shifts for the building", "when i started we were about nine hundred and fifty", "we're about we're over one thousand three hundred right now", "and as that growth happens culture shifts along the way and taking that culture and aiming it in a direction of creativity innovation risktaking as they adapt to tighter spaces", "classrooms out in the mods", "to keep that rolling has been a challenge", "but i will say that it's a challenge that i'm really proud of and that the faculty and staff have embraced and they're well on their way to being innovative creative educators", "keeping that direction creativity innovation", "this new building coming on board is a huge opportunity for them to expand on what they're doing", "and i just wish everyone the very best in creating an environment that people absolutely thrive and love to come to every day", "time now for this week in the belmont citizenherald with joanna tzouvelis the senior multimedia journalist for the belmont citizenherald and wicked local belmont", "hello joanna nice to see you", "nice to be here tom", "nice to have you as our host today", "yeah well it's been fun", "it's been fun giving this a shot", "so and let's talk about it's been a busy week i guess there was a public meeting earlier this week to discuss something that you had spoke about last week the results of the incinerator site exactly over on concord avenue", "so the selectmen wanted to get ideas from the public for uses for the incinerator site which is about twenty five acres of town owned land", "a lot of it is wetlands", "it was used for an incinerator and there's actually a building on there the actual incinerator is still on the land", "it's now just used mostly for public works storage of leaf composting and concrete waste and stuff like that", "and it'll continue to need to be used by public works even after they determine what the use is", "yeah a lot of interesting suggestions came out of the public meeting a bike and skate park a hockey rink and a anaerobic digester", "which to me sounds like some advice you'd get from your health club instructor do you know what it is i do not but i'm hoping you could explain it to me and our audience here", "i'm gonna do my best to do that", "but from what i understand it's used to collect organic waste", "it's an enclosed facility for organic waste", "and what happens is the organic waste turns into electricity in this anaerobic digester", "it's a process and that actually they said could generate income for the town", "there's two ways it would generate income", "you would pay a fee like if you're a commercial business that collects waste you know and you need somewhere to dispose of it you would bring it to our anaerobic digester and you would pay a fee", "and then it would turn into electricity which is also revenue for the town", "it's very scientific it's very technical", "and there are some negatives", "the negatives are that you need good odor control because if something goes wrong with the odor control it'll smell", "it'll smell really bad", "i grew up in a rural part of massachusetts where you know we had our own compost pile and yeah it can get pretty i mean that itself even on our little yard would raise quite a stink", "even though it's enclosed something could go wrong with those controls", "the other thing is traffic there are commercial vehicles that will be delivering this waste", "so it could potentially cause some traffic on concord avenue which is where this site is located", "which yeah there's not that much of it right now", "i mean you know there's never really been traffic issues on that part of the road there", "right so that those are some of the negatives", "and let's say the selectmen do votes because they collected all these ideas and now they're going to study the ideas and decide you know which ones might be the top three", "and then they're eventually going to vote on the top one", "so if this makes it to the top there is some more evaluation of the land that needs to be done to make sure it's even feasible", "and from what i understand an anaerobic digester they don't really exist around towns like belmont they're more in farm kind of towns like western mass and more farm land kind of thing", "out in my old neck of the woods right where i grew up", "it's interesting the resident that brought it to the selectman's attention his name is bruce haskell and he works for an environmental consulting firm called langdon", "do you want to hear about some of the other ideas well yeah no i was just gonna just to kind of follow up on that though", "this might be you know i can understand there might be a push for this anaerobic digester cause in the segment we're gonna have coming up a little bit later on belmont journal", "we have a conversation with julie wu oh yes", "from a group belmont compost", "so there's definitely citizens here in town that want to really push for the you know compost", "in fact julie wu was at that meeting and she said why don't we just use it for composting for food and leaf waste but i'm not sure how that would work", "you know we do have a rat issue in belmont", "so really are you aware of that i was not no", "so all that comes to mind when i hear composting is rats but i'm sure julie would know of a way to prevent that from happening", "so she was there with her idea", "another gentleman had a lot of great ideas a pet cemetery a dog park a driving range that came up as an idea", "wow that sounds like fun", "all these ideas was written down playing fields", "yeah that's an option", "you know what unfortunately joanna we're going to have to save this", "you'll have to talk about it at a future time", "well this will be coming up this is ongoing i will definitely keep you updated", "appreciate that for more on this story don't forget to read the belmont citizenherald or you can go online to wicked local belmont", "joanna thank you for joining us here on belmont journal", "thank you todd", "up next belmont's own jane peters brings us this week's installment of the belmont community calendar", "but first she talks with julie wu of belmont compost a newly formed group that wants to reduce belmont's trash by developing a low cost curbside composting option", "i promise the segment will not be a waste of your time", "see what i did there hi everybody we're here in a new location on this week's community calender", "we're here with julie", "julie is the founder of the belmont compost group in town", "your goal is to increase composting within belmont and also you have some other initiatives going on", "so thank you so much for being here today on the show", "thanks for coming and letting me talk about this", "so yeah so we recently founded belmont compost which is a group that's mission is to increase curbside composting and decrease belmont's trash by increasing awareness of the different curbside composting options and also making it possible to have low cost composting for the citizens and also businesses and the schools as well", "great cool", "so can you give us just the quick rundown of the difference between a curbside composting versus home composting yeah so actually we started out with home composting", "we love to garden and so we've always had our own compost pile in the back", "this past winter when we closed down the compost pile i just felt terrible about throwing food waste into the trash", "so we started out with city compost and then once a week they come and they take away the food waste and they take it to a composting facility", "and so we tried that this winter i was really impressed by how much more you can compost in a professional facility than you can compost at home", "because actually you can put in meats and dairy products and cooked foods you can put in paper products of all kinds", "and so actually it really dramatically reduced our trash", "that's great", "yeah so i was very impressed by that and i was thinking why aren't we doing this sure", "townwide so i started looking around to see if there were companies that could do citywide composting and also would give a group rate", "and i found this one company black earth that gives like fifty discounts for groups of over three hundred", "and then i found out that actually at chenery they're trying to start a composting pilot there", "and it turns out that black earth gives a referral discount", "if you sign up as a resident then chenery will get a ten credit off of their composting", "so i started this campaign you know hoping to get three hundred people in belmont signed up", "if we got three hundred people to sign up and if they all named chenery as their refer", "yeah that's huge", "then that's about three thousand right", "and that would pay for about a year's worth of composting for chenery", "so we really want chenery to succeed because all the other schools are looking at chenery and seeing how they do", "and if chenery does if chenery's project with composting goes well then they might start there", "yeah get the ball rolling", "exactly", "yeah and then otherwise you can check out our facebook site which is belmont compost with an exclamation mark and lets see we'll be at the payson park music festival concerts and in july and august we'll be at the farmer's markets as well", "great so people can talk to you at any one of those events yeah so we'll be there", "and they can learn more yep", "great", "and can people contact you if they're interested if they have any questions yep they certainly can they can contact me", "well i think it's a really great mission and it's great to you know to be educating people about it in the first place and to be signing up for these programs to kind of incentivize people to hopefully sign up for some of these programs", "so we wish you tons of luck", "again almost a third of the way there", "if you're interested in signing up you can learn more on their facebook page and they can sign up on black earth's website", "if they're interested in joining in on that program", "and don't forget to refer chenery if you do sign up so that they get that credit", "but thank you so much for being here", "thank you very much", "here at your house thanks very much for coming having us here today and for talking about this really great group", "thank you", "and with that we're going to bring you next week's events on the community calender", "many great kids write average or even bad college essays", "essays about life lessons learned from football or how my trip to europe broadened my cultural horizons", "better tales are there for the writing", "collegewise brings an essay writing workshop to the library on monday at seven hundred to show you what admissions officers really look for in a great essay and offer suggestions for finding and sharing your best stories", "play baseball trivia and enjoy singing baseball songs with howie newman at the beech street center on tuesday at one hundred and fifteen", "hear stories about his days as a sports writer and enjoy baseball and classic songs from yesteryear", "newman spent years covering baseball for the lynn item lowell sun patriot ledger and boston globe", "we're all artists at heart and collage lets us express ourselves with our choice of materials as well as design make a beautiful and meaningful piece of artwork in a fun and social setting with other beech street members on tuesday at two hundred and thirty", "artist ann miller will share specific collage making techniques materials will be provided but feel free to bring your own clippings photos textures or painting and drawing materials", "social documentary network and digital silver imaging present documentary matters community night", "if you're looking for feedback on your documentary work or a place to meet with others involved or interested in documentary photography you can apply to present your work for critique and discussion on tuesday from six hundred and thirty to nine hundred at digital silver imaging", "you can register on social documentary network's website", "fireflies are a natural joy of summer learn about them and search for them around belmont habitat on tuesday from eight hundred and fifteen to nine hundred and forty five", "this program is designed for all ages but be aware of the late time it needs to be dark to spot them", "sign up for this and other programs on the mass audubon website", "join us senator ed markey and the leading climate change experts for a summit on one of the greatest crises of our time", "following a discussion of the current state of affairs on climate policy and possible solutions", "questions will be taken from the audience", "you can join the discussion on thursday from seven hundred to eight hundred and thirty at the hs", "powers music school presents a powwow session to performance of cows in the kitchen on friday at nine hundred am at the first church in belmont", "students ages five through eleven will perform the musical theater piece that they have learned over the two week program", "you can register your children now for powwow sessions three and four at powersmusicorg", "and that's it for this week", "if you'd like your event featured in belmont journal's community calendar you can send your event info to janebelmontmediaorg", "up next the story on bhs senior service day where students give something back to the community through volunteering", "here's how they felt about it", "this is senior service day", "we're here at the community farms in waltham", "we are cleaning some buckets to fill fresh produce with to give back to the local citizens", "our community service was at peace of heart and we painted around the wall the wall outside the park", "and as we were painting the wall a lot of the neighbors they walked by with their little kids and their families and they said thank you", "and that made us that made me feel good about it", "i felt like i was helping the community", "we are out here volunteering at a soup kitchen in watertown", "we're mopping the floors and cleaning the kitchen and we're gonna help with food", "they really it really makes me appreciate what i do have", "you know what i often take for granted", "it makes me feel like i'm being helpful because you know i feel like their first priority isn't oh like today we have to clean out all of our stuff", "it's kind of like today we just have to keep giving out food", "so it's nice to do like little things for them and make it a little bit easier", "so we are at the belmont public library and we're working with two members of the garden club and we have been digging out what they call a hell strip", "i feel pretty good about this it's really fun", "we're having a ball out here and i definitely recommend it", "i would definitely do it again", "i love it it was a lot of fun", "and it's nice to be outside on a nice day", "remember that the success of belmont journal depends on you the viewers and your support", "please email your story ideas to executive producer frdrique rigoulot at fredbelmontmediaorg", "we conclude this week show with bmc's program scheduled accompanied by some smooth jazz for all of our contributors and the entire crew here at belmont journal", "i'm todd bloniarz saying thanks again for the opportunity and so long for now"], "name": ["snafuinfinityJournal062218-CL19/snafuinfinityJournal062218-CL19/Journal062218-CL19_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "snafuinfinityJournal062218-CL19/snafuinfinityJournal062218-CL19/Journal062218-CL19_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "snafuinfinityJournal062218-CL19/snafuinfinityJournal062218-CL19/Journal062218-CL19_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "snafuinfinityJournal062218-CL19/snafuinfinityJournal062218-CL19/Journal062218-CL19_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "snafuinfinityJournal062218-CL19/snafuinfinityJournal062218-CL19/Journal062218-CL19_DOT_flac_00004.flac", 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10770, 4330, 2608, 4705, 4347, 1540, 4570, 2770, 1820, 8330, 17430, 3380, 3880, 1599, 833, 2368, 2070, 1864, 3744, 3768, 6191, 6843, 7127, 5000, 3547, 7806, 9714, 2390, 6682, 2703, 5622, 6560, 2590, 1860, 4990, 5240, 4193, 9640, 1560, 1520, 5740, 2130, 6050, 1280, 3560, 1222, 1376, 1959, 5824, 5746, 2560, 3157, 3773, 1533, 11820, 14240, 4300, 3880, 6657, 3303, 2100, 8630, 2140, 5000, 10433, 5000, 1355, 8166, 2714, 2175, 4080, 4763, 2290, 2990, 10540, 1430, 9060, 7170, 5820, 3850, 4020, 2880, 3307, 11856, 6500, 1517, 833, 1497, 922, 9771, 7080, 3325], "label": ["good morning and welcome to positively beech street", "this is our third episode", "we are here at the lovely belmont senior center", "i'm one of your cohosts bart fellowmen", "and i'm rich berger", "are you my other cohost yes i think so", "okay", "i think so", "i was here last week so i yeah i know but there sure are a lot of comedians here today", "yeah well i figured i'd show up again because why not exactly exactly you never know what's gonna happen particularly in the senior center", "that's true", "oh that's true and our wonderful producer is jeffrey hansel", "there he is twiggling wiggling and all that good stuff", "and i want to make mention that we have plenty of notepaper because we forget a lot of things bart laughs and we have yellow note paper so we can even see it right there you go", "but you don't wear glasses like me so i i have glasses in my bag in the office", "i've never seen you with glasses", "i don't dare wear them because i'll lose them you know so i figure if if in case i need them i have them but i'd be better off not wearing them because then i'll have them for a long time", "so i'm sorry it was someone was taking someone was trying to steal your chair yeah they were trying to steal my chair i had to say we need that i thought there were about three hundred chairs behind me but well i didn't you know", "we have tons of chairs here we do", "but going back to glasses you can read something small print without your glasses well i have a lot of eye problems right now", "right", "i have a cataract in my right eye and oh you were going to tell me i got interrupt you yeah", "cause we're having that conversation you were going to tell me you to speak to we need that i'm sorry", "put chains we would speak to it what a lady with shine or who knew about the shine program or yes yes", "well what happened was i scheduled a cataract operation for this month first day of spring the 20th", "and then i it dawned on me that perhaps i would owe a lot of money on it", "i didn't know if i was fully covered by medicare", "so i found out that without supplemental i would owe some money", "so i went into an emergency session with myself", "i cancel the appointment", "i cancel the appointment and i rescheduled", "i'm going to reschedule", "in the interim between now and the rescheduling i'm going to get a bit of supplemental insurance to help me out", "so you spoke to that woman you had told me about yes i spoke to this shine person here alicia", "she's excellent she is she showed me knew all the rules oh my god she not only knew all the rules she showed them to be in a way sequentially step after step where it was very easy to to understand", "and if anybody has any need for a shine counselor concerning medicare i would i would recommend her highly", "was she able to tell you how much it would cost you out of your pocket i'm just curious", "no that the you know it's a kind of it's kind of complicated but what you need is you need a diagnosis code and a procedure code to find out excuse me but we have a special guest just oh pulled up and we need to pull over more chairs", "well we yes we're going to do it", "so anyway you know medicare's is so complicated", "it really is", "it is very complicated", "you never know what you're going to get hit with", "we're gonna move over a little like this", "i'm going to move this over here", "sure", "cause you want you gotta get close", "we gotta huddle", "oh we gotta huddle yeah well only because of the the way the vocals go", "oh", "and so i wonder what was used for decoration so did it actually work well welcome to the show", "i asked i have on my right dana leavitt who's the assistant director of the senior center and to her right is social work intern named deborah sarah", "goldberg", "sarah i liked deborah oh okay sarah goldberg", "i guess if dana and sarah combine maybe you get deborah", "why not only if wandering in the desert english is a living language it's very fluid", "so if you're given the go ahead yeah", "to do basically anything anything we want all right", "well i'm going to let sarah and that includes groucho imitations all kinds of good stuff and there you go", "yeah", "younger folks like you who still know groucho it's important yes", "i forget given my age someone who's like thirty forty years younger than me they're not going to know that reference you know all the time i say do you know what i'm talking about and they go i think my mother told me about that", "and i was like okay", "just get me two hard boiled eggs would be good", "yeah be glad you have a yellow pad that's that's the color of this episode", "oh yellow yup", "excellent all right", "well i'm going to let i will let sarah go first because sarah is a newbie at this", "so i am a newbie just doing a little plug for the new group i'm leading on mondays", "so this group is on right now", "it is an expressive arts group mondays one to two hundred pm", "artistic skill not required", "it's an open group for all levels of creative ability", "all you need is a desire to express yourself as madonna would say", "through art through art yes", "so it will be a guided group where people can come i will lead the structure of the group and we'll get to creating based on that", "and it's open to everyone", "you know you can participate you can observe but we definitely encourage you to come check it out", "mondays went one to two hundred pm", "i also wanted to let everyone know i'm here mondays and fridays feel free to come see me and ask about beech street's budding phone program", "i know a lot of you are interested right now in finding out how to get those smartphones and start signing up for shared driving opportunities such as lyft and uber and i am here to help with that", "oh wonderful", "that's great", "do you have do you have any art therapy background from your social work education i do i graduated from lesley university which specializes in expressive art therapies", "i have facilitated groups all around the boston area related to expressive art", "my specialties are bringing out the more kind of deeper messages that we hope to express in our daytoday lives that sometimes we just can't find the words for and i do that through imagery and therapeutic writing and have found it to be a very soothing and enjoyable way to facilitate different types of no the reason i ask i used to have a sisterinlaw who gone to art school and who did a lot of therapy work with her art", "she was a potter and so kind of an exciting medium because most people probably have never tried to create anything in pottery", "and when you have someone and when you have an elderly person and they indicated a willingness to get deeper and they start creating art it's like i observed some of her classes and it was like aha moments because it was like wow the emotional uplifting for some people they just got so into it they wanted to do pottery every day yes", "it was just well you know i would like to on the same the artistic realm i'm about with virtual reality here bringing the virtual reality to the senior center", "so i live in virtual reality", "so i i don't want to be so lonely anymore", "i'm going to try to help people come", "so i would like to extend to you the offer of collaborating your your projects and ours", "maybe we could have a coevent of some sort i think that would be a wonderful idea", "figure that out", "yeah yeah", "i think there's so many wonderful sensory experiences whether it's pottery or virtual reality and i think it stimulates us all to go deeper", "yeah yeah a virtual reality for me it's the explosion into the human imagination yes", "and i think that everybody likes to go there", "we're all kids at heart and then i think everybody likes to go there", "sigmund freud rides again", "sigmund i mean you know if you think of you know there's lots of things he did that were great and things people don't agree with but think of the massive cultural influence he's had on human life since he was in indiana doing inventing psychoanalysis", "well and you know talking about imagination and that kind of mind thing", "i think plato had some sort of if i'm recalling correctly i think it was plato he had some sort of world that he imagined where there were primitive shapes ideal primitive eternal shapes", "and i've seen some of these yup", "i love it in virtual reality", "were you around when plato was alive you have to tell you the truth i came a little bit later i was going to say it was your but i knew his son and his daughter", "right you're uncle your uncle was hanging out with him i heard in the desert you know wandering together so you know", "we do nothing but tell the truth here", "yeah i know you guys do there's historical truths you know you got to that introduction by the way of the show the podcast it's brilliant oh", "what jane created oh my god", "hilarious i mean so good i'm gonna have to check it out", "you'll have to check it out it's great", "she even chose the music yeah it's great", "the music is great too it's so good", "so so the theme there was kind of a yellow yellowy green so we're trying to keep that going", "keep that going yeah i support that", "we were going to paint the office tuscan okra", "it will be nice but i don't think that's going to oh my god", "keep it exciting", "so i have a question and it's to both of you sure", "so one of the things rich and i would like to accomplish is find them a medium or a way to get people here to share some memories some origin type stuff family situational maybe with even some pictures", "i think it's a wonderful way if they're comfortable enough that an older person where i live in newton is a senior building and there's a new social work intern actually who i have not met but they post things", "they they they have more things going on in the day", "i mean i get exhausted just reading the list of things that are planned but this fellow luke is doing a memory project and i haven't spoken to but i can imagine what it is and it makes you know it makes a whole lot of sense", "people who were either shy or whoever past memories but would want to share and there are some who it might be too painful to share but it's hard to i'm trying to find a mechanism or medium to approach", "that subject yeah", "we i was literally having this conversation last night when i was talking with nava", "we were talking about someone and their life their story", "and then it sort of i had said well if there was a way that we could do it", "and i know my grandparents we still have the receipt when they got married at the waldorf astoria in new york", "it's such a cool piece of history that would evoke a story and would be able to share", "and so yeah i mean i would one hundred support that if people had something that they wanted to bring to tell their story that would invoke that yeah", "it's trying to figure out and maybe we should rich and i should sit with you or both of you whatever depending on schedules how to think of what the methodology is to approach people", "because saying it was one thing right but doing but doing is another", "i mean you talk about you gotta think of your parents", "i'm in my apartment i have a picture of my parents at the copacabana in new york with little beer bottles and champagne things on the table", "that's awesome", "and it has to be let's see they were married in thirty nine and this was before they were married", "so probably about thirty seven you know wow", "and i always remember they were married in thirty nine because that's when gone with the wind was first aired", "oh i love that", "so they're married on the 31st and my mother made it through the marriage because my brother was born on january 1st january 1st", "right three years later any way so give me a memory that you have from your past", "from my childhood well from your past it could be childhood", "it could be it could be stories you were told by your family", "well one thing that comes to mind is after i graduate i had i had an english teacher in high school and one day i came home from a college break", "i was to visit my folks and i went to the store for some reason and i actually saw this teacher carrying a bag of ope", "carrying a bag of groceries and i almost fell over", "i mean i didn't even realize that she ate i didn't think she ate i mean i kind of realized something important about teachers you know they do eat and they do have a life and they carry groceries", "they exist", "they're people too", "have children and families yeah", "so it was a revelation", "it's funny how you look back and you you know you kind of as you get older more experienced your vision increases", "i think i embellish that a little bit but the heart of it was there", "i was very shocked to see her in another context so", "i hear you i hear you", "we're gonna so what's going on here anything new anything different lots of oh gosh lots of stuff", "i know lots of things who can keep up with you guys the first thing is i want to put a plug in for the beach party ause that's going to be a lot of fun", "so we're having an indoor beach party i was going to say because we're on beech street and because the winter months are long", "there's going to be no sand there's no requirement to wear a bathing suit or flip flops or you know no", "but if but are you doing pina coladas or cuba libres i mean if you have a tommy bahama or you have we're going to do like a fun punch in a nonalcoholic obviously", "the spirited gourmet is donating a tray of passed hors d'oeuvres so we'll have those hotdogs i'm gonna get ice cream", "like what you remember as a child eating on the beach", "hoodsies", "hoodsies yeah i'm going to get the strawberry shortcake bars fudgcicles i wish they sell they sold the two ball screwball you know the ice cream that had the two gumballs at the bottom", "that was the most fun part but i don't think they sell those by the bulk", "so we'll get you never know", "oh my god you look like you would go to nantasket beach", "did you ever go to nantasket beach i did but i was first dragged to revere beach because my mother grew up in a place called beachmont which is in between revere and belmont and overlooking revere beach okay okay", "and i hated revere beach yeah", "and i would tell my mother i'm incredibly fair and i burn i'm not going", "and she said you're six years old i can't leave you at home", "but i would say why not i'll play you know so i didn't start going to nantasket until i was like fourteen or fifteen you know that type of thing", "yeah no those are the memories of the ice cream", "when i would get the ice and when is this beach party march 19th from four hundred and thirty to six hundred and thirty and we're going to have a steel drum player toby tobas", "so he'll do caribbean reggae latin oh excellent idea i love that man", "and we're going to play corn hole", "i'm telling people if they have beach toy beach games you know paddle ball or whatnot it'll just be a lot of fun", "so that's coming up", "i'm gonna bring big inner tube yeah i'm gonna wear it yeah yup", "do it do it that'll be a lot of fun", "are there gonna be any children or you know or is it you know a beach day you could have children grandparents you could have you know any number of things", "yeah i'm encouraging", "i mean we cater to people fifty five and older first you know they're the priority but i don't see why not but i think we'd probably stick it stick to adults only", "well we can probably find a fifty five year old kid", "you're right we could we could", "a lot of them", "i think we could find one", "yeah but that'll be a lot of fun i'm excited for that one", "and then we've got a lot of great music programs", "the sarah gardner trio is coming", "she brings her dad he plays the piano", "that'll be a lot of fun", "the brill the music from the brill building they were here last friday and it was quite a jam", "oh they were great", "yeah it was a lot of fun", "hopefully we'll have them come back cause we were talking about not necessarily a prom but like a throwback thursday party", "so we'll have ice cream floats do like dowop and stuff like that", "ice cream floats", "so we're working on that party at some point", "yeah when's the last time you had a root beer float a year ago at a cabin", "last night yesterday so we're working on that", "we're having a great program today to talk about affordable housing which is important for people to hear in case you have to move or downsize", "so the metro west program they're going to come and talk about housing and then what else do i have going i think i have a lot of stuff going", "we're having a barry pell is coming to talk about climate change", "there were two islands i couldn't give you the names of them because they're hard to pronounce but basically what is climate change doing to impact these small islands and the people who are still living on these islands", "so that'll be a really important conversation", "the other thing i really want to plug is the social bullying program that we have coming", "robin is a woman from jewish family and children's services who's coming to talk about social bullying among older adults", "and it's present you know whether it's in housing whether it's here at the center whether it's at an assisted living in a nursing home i mean you can bullying doesn't go away", "so that'll be a really important program that we talk about too", "so lots of good stuff happening and i want to see everybody", "we're going to the service dog graduation this weekend", "so that'll be a lot of fun", "that's on sunday we'll watch the dogs from golden opportunities for independence we'll watch them graduate", "so now they're fully completed with their service training and now they're ready to be service dogs for their owners and go out in the world", "i think we just can't wait to see you guys at the center", "yeah all right all laugh thank you so much", "thanks guys", "thank you very much", "thank you pleasure", "but we need to sit sometime get into methodology and pictures", "pictures are important", "everyone has them yes i think", "i have a few myself", "that's good", "i'm surprised at how little i have family pictures", "probably it's a reflection of how much your parents probably collected no my cousin one of my cousins has a she's kind of like the family repository stuff photos and genealogy", "it's such a strange thing i have a lot of pictures cause i have a brother who you know i'm the one", "so i'm the repository and that was that way with stamp collections too which cause we were a big stamp collector family", "cause my grandfather was in the steamship business and he would get letters from all over the world constantly for business", "my father became a stamp collector anyway but with pictures", "so i used to go over them with my mother who's this you know it was mainly with my mother's family and now i have all this stuff and occasionally i'll look at em because my daughter wants she's always looking for missing relatives", "she thinks why aren't why don't i have more relatives around here well julia most of them are dead but you know it's true", "but you know people can't remember who these people are and i and i have the memory but i was never given the full memory", "that's why i was coming up with this thing pictures shouldn't be kept in albums in my mind", "people should have them out", "like i want to make for my kids a couple of collages", "i used to date a woman that did collages with all these pictures and be framed like a picture", "so you can point and look and see rather than having it on a bookshelf in an album that you never take out", "yeah well you know that pictures are perhaps you know the most popular thing to record memories", "but in this day and age we're starting to get to the point where we have other technologies clears throat you know like video", "i mean video has been around for a long time but a lot of people with their portable devices will record some sort of an event", "and that will become part of the pictorial history right", "excuse me", "i always have a question you know i'm not very technical but i see these people with their phones their iphones their smartphones taking like zillions a lot of pictures", "and i was with my son and a friend that came over and they were talking about their storage capacity and they had like one thousand five hundred pictures on there", "and i go what are you doing with them i mean if you got to look in a little can you print them out and you show me what you know and it's like oh they're just there", "it's like the repository is in their hand", "yeah and also you know i found i'd take photos with my phone too", "and i found that at various times i think to myself i didn't even see what i photographed", "i mean there's some like i'm seeing this microphone and if i really pay attention i can look at its detail and really see it", "but if i say oh that's a wonderful microphone", "you know i'm like this and i i put it away or walk away", "my camera saw more about that microphone than i did you know well so my question would be in that how often do you think after the day after you took those pictures of the microphone would you go into your phone and start scanning the pictures would you remember or it just sits there and say oh look at that microphone again a month later or i do i do go back yeah i do", "i the thing that i'm finding frustrating is finding how you know you think oh i took that picture but how far back was it and my phone is not sophisticated enough so that i can say you know such and such a month and you know and they will retrieve it for me", "i think some cell phones have the capacity when you get that many photographs and you can't remember where they are", "or when you took them but yeah where they're located on the see it's like the to my mind it's the it's a device", "it's an assembly of order put around or organization put around the pictures", "but it's like i wanted to do a cookbook", "and the reason i bring this up is because it's a similar concept and people said well everyone's done cookbooks", "why do you want to do a cookbook says i can't remember where all these because a lot of recipes can lead you to think if you're a cook to get to experimentation or another recipe", "in other words it influence you in what you know cause i always i'll take a recipe and i'll change it to my format and i'll add things", "so it becomes my recipe in effect not someone else's template", "but but the point is i wanted i thought there would be a way to develop collecting recipes that you could have a cookbook that someone could develop an algorithm or whatever so that you don't want to be stuck going through five hundred pages of recipes", "but you wanted to say well if you have in your house if you had olive oil anchovies garlic and like three other ingredients show me what things you can do with that", "you know something i can give you a suggestion i'm a big search guy", "right", "i think of something i go right on the internet and i get a little phrase or a couple of keywords and i follow it", "i would go to google put in some you know first do recipe software and see what comes up", "there might be some people might have invented an app or a program that does a lot with recipes and maybe some of the things you want", "and correlations between ingredients right", "you know i mean explore yeah it's i'm sure you'll find something that's interesting", "maybe you know my son says dad i don't need a bunch of cookbooks and he's he cooks also", "so he says i just look if i want to cook something i look it up on google or wherever i said wait a minute what are you asking google to tell you you're giving input questions", "so what if you don't know part of what you want to tell google well you see yeah i would say start out general you know like recipes software and then you know some findings will come up and then you can you know go to a website take a look at what it means to the producer of that piece of software to be labeled recipe software", "maybe it's how to better organize your recipes", "maybe it has it has all these maybe there was a way of searching for those three ingredients what could you make with this you know you never know", "i know but i've tried a little of that and i don't think it exists what i'm trying to do but i don't know", "it just seems like well maybe some time you and i can sit down and an inventive way to help people who want to cook without necessarily having a recipe but you have ingredients", "right you and i are having a tough time i'm having the same thing", "it's the dry heat", "air here", "that's why i'm drinking orange juice today", "does it affect your skin see it affects my skin the dry", "i don't know", "do i look kind of i hope i don't look yellow that's not a good sign no no no", "when you look yellow that's not being transferred", "i don't think there's any transfer to yellow but you know it's a i'm in it for the vitamin c and i love orange", "i love the color orange and this bottle is really cool", "it's a very nice bottle i'm not plugging simply orange i'm just plugging it i get it i am a real shopper of food", "i mean i know what different markets have", "i know what the price just because i got it from my mother but like i started buying orange juice again", "a few months ago i stopped", "i like orange juice but it was too fattening and i'm on a diet", "i don't want all the calories", "and now they're doing fifty less calories two brands which is significant cause it's less sugar it what they're cutting out you still get the orange taste", "and so same prices as the regular orange juice", "so now i'll have orange juice", "you know i personally have had the opposite problem in my life", "now that i'm older and you know i'm getting a little more sedentary", "i'm keeping my weight", "i was very very active being a carpenter early on and being a kid you're run around", "but anyway i had just the opposite problem", "i couldn't keep enough weight on", "yes during college i was so thin in the middle of my college years that i went on a crash diet", "the crash diet was two meals of pancakes or waffles with butter and syrup and anything else that i could put on top of it to give me caloric intake and then a bag of malted milk balls", "there must have been like six thousand calories in that bag", "i ate every single malted milk ball and i didn't gain an ounce", "i didn't gain an ounce", "yeah it's your system", "no it was my system and also i smoked for a long time", "when i gave up smoking boom", "oh really yeah", "so that did cause fifteen pounds fifteen pounds all at once", "i lost seven of them but i kept the seven", "i still have those seven pounds from thirty years ago like a bank account right yup", "it happens it happens when you get old", "did you get any interest on that it's compounded it's compounded and it hasn't gone up to eight pounds at all", "at thanksgiving i was with my son i was with my ex wife", "you know we have to share the children and all this blah blah blah", "and she always nice figure blah blah blah but someone's said something", "and i said well i've been on a diet and i've started to lose i've lost seven pounds it was after two weeks at the time and i want to continue this and go to more plant based stuff blah blah blah it's my diet", "i wouldn't need to explain it to her", "and she says she came over to me my exwife and said you want to give me some of what you got", "at first i didn't know what she was talking about", "she was talking about weight she can't she has lost weight and she can't gain weight", "she likes to eat but when she gets unhappy or depressed whatever she says give me ten pounds of yours", "i said here it's free it's a bargain take it", "somebody should work on that technology", "yeah well i believe if i could sell her ten pounds i do it in a minute yeah", "but i would go i would buy you know an eighth ninth 10th pound", "i would really go i'd go for maybe like up to twelve pounds", "i tell people i've always aspired to be heavy and they're like what you've always aspired to be heavy because you're always thin", "nobody understands that", "i think there there is a problem", "i mean the you know the bulimia and people being thin right", "they think they're not thin enough", "i mean that's a problem in a different way cause the person wants to get lighter and lighter and lighter", "i wanted to get heavier and heavier and heavier", "you're starting at the point where you have less pounds", "right", "just going in one direction or the other", "exactly well i tell you a funny story", "i went to graduate school in england i think you know and so i'm over there and i don't have a lot of money", "i had a i remember very specifically and i should have just complained to my parents but i didn't", "so i was always looking for to eat the money to eat", "you know it really was tight so i had three a day for food", "now this was way back when but still you couldn't get a lot", "i did okay generally", "if i had gotten four a day for food it would've changed my life it's that close so i traveled all over europe i was very excited", "i had a great year in europe and i got my degree and the war was raging and all this craziness was going on and i come home and i fly into new york cause that was there were a whole bunch of students returning and it was a set flight", "so my parents came down from boston to new york and picked me up and it was like eight in the morning", "so they had stayed over and i'll never forget", "i'm on a second floor and i could spot my parents way across on the first floor of the floor below", "and my mother i see her looking at me and she almost fainted", "as only a mother could yeah", "because i had forgotten how thin i became in england because there were no sandwiches", "i'm a hamburger guy you know", "there were no they just so my whole diet change yeah", "constrained by money and so i didn't realize i weighed like one hundred and sixty nine or one hundred and seventy which is thin for me", "and she could notice you know mother's eyes notice things", "yeah yeah", "we stopped on the way they got breakfast and i had a couple of cheeseburgers at ten in the morning in southern connecticut you know oh my god", "because i want i just wanted the taste more than anything", "it was just it was strange", "it was strange how thin i got and then not realizing it because i was still eating", "it was just i wasn't eating the carbs that i had in the american diet", "i would eat scrambled eggs for lunch at school", "it was subsidized it would be forty cents", "you know you get a big plate of scrambled eggs with chips fries you know so when you if you change where you live and you change your food intake it becomes it seriously can change your body", "yeah", "i have pictures of me and my apartment in london and my roommate was from montreal and his girlfriend was over from montreal and i had my arm around him", "he was taking the picture and it's like my ribs were sticking out crazy absolutely crazy", "but anyway it's just it's harder when you're older but i am losing so it's yeah", "it has to be like a year and a half parcel you know", "i'm at a point now where i think i have a good weight", "i don't feel thin i don't feel heavy", "right you don't want to be anemic or no no", "or anything like that but i think unless you have anything else important that you can think of maybe we should wrap it up let me check my notes here", "cause budget is i don't think so budget is pulled up and they may be moving us out if we sit here", "budget oh my god", "you know you never know", "somebody called budget on us", "get the table", "get those guys out of there get those tables well on behalf of positively beech street i'm bart fellowman rich berger", "and we're going to wrap up our third episode and we thank you for your attention and listening", "thank you very much and we'll see you in the future"], "name": ["snafuinfinityPos_Beech_St_Ep3-030119/snafuinfinityPos_Beech_St_Ep3-030119/Pos_Beech_St_Ep3-030119_DOT_flac_00000.flac", 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-{"audio_document_id": "Talking_News_02272018.flac", "identifier": "snafuinfinityTalking_News_02272018", "text_document_id": "Talking_News_02272018.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [11063, 12460, 6610, 3810, 1933, 3103, 21103, 10164, 3638, 3710, 1492, 7482, 4438, 6880, 7853, 13040, 4560, 4670, 13303, 5170, 13360, 13340, 15083, 10530, 11190, 15970, 4953, 11760, 9863, 18053, 4870, 2520, 6800, 6754, 5820, 8540, 3797, 2343, 1910, 7400, 13340, 5620, 2830, 13590, 14450, 13970, 13000, 3150, 5697, 22805, 1823, 7355, 13550, 13110, 3770, 10800, 5630, 11680, 6283, 3426, 13531, 6499, 24720, 2483, 1580, 1440, 3380, 9967, 7183, 8983, 9170, 9212, 2285, 10283, 4137, 7516, 16683, 10443, 13450, 4273, 4550, 6793, 4383, 5710, 8887, 7083, 7953, 4290, 8877, 8763, 6333, 6643, 12646, 5650, 2900, 10653, 9120, 2010, 5373, 10780, 6070, 2893, 3613, 5993, 20730, 2477, 6516, 15240, 6740, 2520, 1320, 2400, 3043, 16100, 6983, 16437, 5736, 13110, 10952, 10238, 6430, 6530, 12430, 3740, 9260, 4360, 4820, 5750, 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at one thousand two hundred and thirty pm on channel nine xfinity and channel twenty nine files", "listen any time on the bmc podcast network on soundcloud and itunes", "just search for the belmont media podcast network", "now onto the talking news", "preparing for the schematic design phase", "high school building committee starts work on module four by joanna k tzouvelis the belmont high school building committee is getting ready to begin the work on module four the schematic design phase and the eight module process with the massachusetts school building authority", "the msba will be reimbursing the town approximately forty of the cost for a grade seven through twelve building", "four hundred and fifty one thousand five hundred and seventy five sq ft to accommodate two thousand two hundred and fifteen students", "four hundred and fifty one thousand five hundred and seventy five sq ft to accommodate two thousand two hundred and fifteen students", "four hundred and fifty one thousand five hundred and seventy five sq ft to accommodate two thousand two hundred and fifteen students", "the cost is estimated at three thousand and seventy two million the cost is estimated at three thousand and seventy two million with belmont contribution being two thousand two hundred and seventy three million", "with belmont contribution being two thousand two hundred and seventy three million", "there will be a ballot question for a debt exclusion on the november 6th general election", "the amount will be determined upon completion of the project funding agreement with the msba in august", "on january 23rd the school committee voted unanimously in favor of a grade seven through twelve option which will change the lower school configurations to k3 for the butler burbank wellington and winn brook", "to k3 for the butler burbank wellington and winn brook", "and four to six for the chenery middle school", "the school committee selectmen and bhs building committee also voted on january 23rd on the major additionminor renovation design option known as the bow tie", "with two separate entrances for the upper and lower school students", "core space on the first floor of the building will be shared which will include a prefunction area for the auditorium theater and gymnasiums", "since january 23rd the bhs building committee completed the work they needed to do for the preferred schematic report module three in the msba process", "belmont high school building committee chairman bill lovallo said they expect to hear a decision from the msba board on april ten after they've reviewed the completed preferred schematic report submitted february twenty one", "over the next five weeks lovallo said that they will start preparing for the module four by looking at more details for the building's design such as lockers and bathrooms", "they will continue to discuss traffic and will meet with the traffic advisory committee and the newly hired consultant for a townwide traffic study on march eight", "they will also be meeting with all the stakeholders in town such as the police fire and public works departments planning board recreation commission historic district commission and school food services department", "the schematic design package is due to the msba by july eleven", "after april ten the design team will present after april ten the design team will present more detailed images drawings and models of the exterior and interior of the new building", "design team will then do a presentation for committee members to experience what the new building will be like wearing virtual reality goggles", "lovallo said that there will also be a movie of the virtual reality walkthrough which will be shown at public meetings and linked to the bhs school building committee website and linked to the bhs school building committee website where they will be seeking more community feedback and input", "during this phase cost estimates for the new building will also be determined", "after module four is completed in july", "module five the completion of the construction documents will begin in november", "if debt exclusion passes and take approximately twelve to fifteen months to complete", "during module six the project will go out to bid and a contractor will be hired", "during module seven the construction of the project will begin in two thousand and twenty and is estimated to take forty two months to complete", "module eight is the closing out of the project", "and now over to claire", "thank you bob", "homeowners appeal to be taken off the significant list by joanna k tzouvelis", "three homeowners have asked to have their homes removed from the list of historic buildings subject to the demolition delay bylaw subject to the demolition delay bylaw approved at last year's annual town meeting", "the board of selectmen has refused the appeals on two of the residential properties", "and a third residential appeal is pending", "one hundred and eighty two belmont properties are on the list of belmont significant historic building subject to the demolition delay bylaw which was approved by town meeting", "if someone wants to partially or completely demolish any of those properties a demolition permit must be filed which will be referred to the historic district commission for a public hearing", "if the historic commission determines it is preferable to preserve the property the owner would then have to wait up to one year while the commission discusses alternatives to demolition", "this bylaw was created to protect properties like the historic first congregational church on trapelo road which was demolished by a developer in two thousand and thirteen", "however a handful of homeowners are concerned", "it will affect their property value and have filed appeals to be removed from the list", "the appeal process homeowners will have to demonstrate why they think their building does not qualify historically significant based upon six criteria such as whether or not the building was associated with a historic significant event or with the life of historically significant person", "or with the life of historically significant person", "the selectmen have the authority at the appeals hearing to approve or deny the property owners appeal", "recently appeals for fifty two willow street and forty three village hill road were denied because the selectmen did not think the reasons the owner gave to be taken off the list were justified", "ben bawa owner of fifty two willow street designed by architect charles greco said his home is not historically significant and being on the list will affect its property value", "he was very disappointed with the selectmen's decision", "they made statements such as no one would want to tear down our house which might be the case but it's not relevant to the appeal he said", "bawa also feels there are many other historic homes in town that aren't on the list", "he said his home is not a tear down but he doesn't know what tomorrow's economy will bring and worries he won't get the best price for his house when the time comes to sell", "the selectmen didn't think that was reason enough to justify bawa's property being taken off the list", "it's like a communist rule in a way said bawa", "in her appeal letter barbara watson owner of forty three village hill road designed by architect royal barry wills stated given the number of houses that mr wales designed not all can be significant", "and there is no indication that forty three village hill road stands out from the rest", "i have found no indication that the house received any architectural artistic or other award after her denial at the february 5th hearing watson pleaded with the selectmen to approve the appeal of her nearby neighbor derek staples owner of twenty seven dorset road also designed by royal barry wills", "located close to route two", "now here's max", "thanks claire", "flu's grip on massachusetts is still strong", "health officials urge residents to get their flu shot by mary byrne with each passing week the flu's grip on massachusetts seems to get stronger", "with few exceptions the majority of the base data's reporting high levels of influenzalike illness activities", "according to the state department of public health weekly report the north shore in particular is in the red zone indicating the highest level of reported activity", "and just recently the state's dph confirmed the first influenza associated pediatric death the first influenza associated pediatric death in the commonwealth", "delilah loveless age six of haverhill was a first grade student at the golden hills school reported wicked news partner wcvb", "reported wicked news partner wcvb", "this is a tragic reminder of how serious the flu can be for some people said public health commissioner monica bharel md mph in a statement", "every flu season is different but every flu season is bad", "this one arrived early and continues to spread leading many people throughout the commonwealth to get sick", "as of february 16th the latest data available from the state dph says there have been ten thousand nine hundred and twenty nine from the state dph says there have been ten thousand nine hundred and twenty nine laboratory confirmed cases of influenza so far in the twenty million one hundred and seventy two thousand and eighteen flu season", "in just the last week massachusetts saw two thousand seven hundred and sixty two confirmed cases of the flu massachusetts saw two thousand seven hundred and sixty two confirmed cases of the flu indicating numbers are still on the rise", "the report notes that because the majority of cases aren't labtested the number of confirmed cases doesn't necessarily reflect the overall incidents of influenza still there is no doubt", "this flu season has been more severe than last local health officials say", "in danvers there have been seventy nine cases of lab confirmed flu", "since the season began on october 1st according to danvers public health nurse judith ryan", "in the last two weeks alone there were forty three reported cases", "that's compared to forty five confirmed cases at this point in the two thousand and fourteen flu season", "two cases in twenty million one hundred and fifty two thousand and sixteen and twenty four cases in twenty million one hundred and sixty two thousand and seventeen", "it did start a bit earlier around here in danver she said but it is continuing through right now", "the biggest thing we want people to understand is it's not too late to get a flu shot a more virulent flu season", "those who work at urgent care centers are feeling the severity of this year's flu season", "according to afc urgent care medical director sonia beauvais this year my overall feeling is that it's been a little more virulent beauvais said", "it's making people feel a little sicker she said she's seen more patients this year then at the same time last year", "and a lot of her patients are overflow from primary care and emergency care departments at surrounding hospitals", "as for why the north shore may be getting hit so hard by the flu this season health officials say they aren't certain", "the only thing i can point out is we do have an international airport logan that tends to bring more travelers to the region and whatnot said dr mark gendreau chief medical officer of beverly and addison gilbert hospitals", "he explained there are currently two strains of flu type a and type b", "one of which presents itself more severely than the other", "it basically goes after the very young and the very old he said that's why we're seeing fairly high rates of hospitalization throughout the state and particularly through the north shore", "that strain h3n2 tends to be more aggressive and more difficult for the seasonal flu vaccine to protect against gendreau said", "don't be a hero", "both gendreau and beauvais said this year's flu vaccine isn't as good as previous years", "but explained that releasing a vaccine each year isn't an exact science it's based off the flu season in the southern hemisphere and what strains dominated there", "the problem is that the h3n2 when it shows up that's a challenge gendreau said", "the seasonal flu vaccine tends to perform poorly", "when that particular strain turns out to be the predominant strain", "this might explain why there are cases in which an individual who got the vaccine still comes down with the flu", "but for those who are doubtful of the efficacy of this year's vaccine health officials such as dr alex walker chairman of the emergency department for melrosewakefield hospital in melrose and lawrence memorial hospital in medford say the flu shot even if it doesn't prevent the flu reduces the severity of flu symptoms", "people think it's all or nothing he said", "if you get the flu shot and you get the flu at least you're not laid up for ten days it may be five with the flu shot", "at least your body ache on the one to ten scale maybe not a ten out of ten maybe it's a five out of ten walker said early reports that the vaccine was only ten effective quickly caught the attention of the media and the public", "while he said the vaccine isn't as effective as prior years he said the efficacy is closer to forty", "other medical professionals agreed", "over to you bob", "thank you max", "resident named arlington middle school principal", "the arlington public schools announced in a press release on february sixteen that belmont resident brian meringer accepted the position of principal of the ottoson middle school formally the junior high west", "meringer will officially assume his responsibilities as principal on july 1st two thousand and eighteen", "ottoson middle school will benefit from a highly capable student focused and proven school leader as it transitions next year to a grade seven and eight school said superintendent kathleen bodie", "meringer comes with high praise from his colleagues students and community", "and we'll look forward to him filling this key role in the leadership team for the district bodie emphasized that the district attracted very strong candidates for the ottoson position", "all finalists candidates were very accomplished and they will continue to provide excellent public education leadership in their current and future positions", "meringer has been in his current position of assistant headmaster of the dover sherborn middle school since two thousand and thirteen", "previously he was a housemaster in the philip o oakley middle school in norwood", "in norwood he also coached varsity girls basketball and boys soccer", "from two thousand and two through two thousand and eight he taught both sixth and seventh grade in the wellesley middle school while teaching social studies language arts and literacy there", "he also completed his administrative internship", "he began his work as an educator teaching social studies in middle schools in the concord and rockport public schools", "meringer received his ba from the university of new hampshire", "he holds a master of arts in teaching history from boston college", "and a master of education in organization management from endicott college", "and now over to claire", "thank you bob", "a new proposal to address climate change by senator william brownsberger", "earlier this week the senate committee on global warming and climate change released an omnibus bill climate change bill", "the bill combines dozens of ideas that are currently on the table for reducing carbon emissions", "if the bill is brought for a vote i will certainly vote for it", "i support action to reduce carbon emissions and a vote for the bill will keep the conversation moving", "i am most enthusiastic about the provisions of the bill that would create market mechanisms to reduce greenhouse gas emissions from vehicles and buildings", "vehicles account for approximately forty of the greenhouse gases in massachusetts and buildings account for almost as much", "electric power generation now only admits approximately twenty of the greenhouse gas", "for three reasons we have tended to focus on the electric power sector in policy discussions about greenhouse gas emissions", "about greenhouse gas emissions", "for us it was once a larger slice of the pie", "it has shrunk over the past few years in part because our efforts to shift it towards renewables", "but largely because many generators have shifted from coal to cheaper natural gas which contributes less to global warming", "second the state has a long history of directly regulating the power sector to prevent overcharging by monopoly utilities", "so it was easy to start regulating it to reduce carbon emissions", "finally wind solar and other emerging energy industries are very active in lobbying and have effectively sought subsidies to support their growth", "the present legislation continues to expand subsidies for particular electric power sources", "while i do not oppose these subsidies i'll confess some uneasiness about them", "i am skeptical of our ability to make good quantitative decisions about just how much of an asset we should give to particular technologies", "i prefer a marketbased incentives that encourage consumers to choose the carbon reduction approach that works best for them", "that is why i am especially enthusiastic about the bills provisions for reducing vehicle and building emissions", "the bill requires the secretary of energy and environmental affairs to promulgate regulations creating marketbased mechanisms to reduce greenhouse gas emissions", "first from cars and light trucks then from commercial and industrial buildings", "then from residential buildings with the regulatory rollout to complete by two thousand and twenty two", "with the regulatory rollout to complete by two thousand and twenty two", "the bill contemplates that these mechanisms may be created in collaboration with other states andor canadian provinces especially for transportation sector by definition mobile across state lines by definition mobile across state lines a regional approach makes sense", "i am also pleased that the bill puts teeth into the global warming solutions act that we passed in two thousand and eight", "the global warming act defined a goal the global warming act defined a goal of an eighty reduction in greenhouse gas emissions by two thousand and fifty", "of an eighty reduction in greenhouse gas emissions by two thousand and fifty", "the present legislation would require the setting of intermediate goals and the definition of pathways to achieving those goals", "it requires that the new market mechanisms for reducing vehicle and building emissions be calibrated", "so as to make achievements of those goals more likely", "the bill also speaks to climate adaptation", "as much as we may lead on reducing emissions in massachusetts we can be sure that the climate will continue to change and we need to be prepared", "i've been especially focused on the flood risks created by rising seas and more powerful storms", "now to max", "thank you claire", "looking back and ahead to the future by angela toma", "march 4th marks the 150th anniversary of the belmont public libraries founding", "to celebrate the milestone belmont library director peter struzziero is planning a threeday event books in bloom kicking off this friday march 2nd", "the festivities will begin at seven hundred pm on march 2nd with an opening reception", "there will be food live music and a cash bar", "as part of the celebration members of the garden club will create floral interpretations of their favorite books", "all the attendees at the opening reception will score a peek at these exhibits", "on saturday march 3rd the belmont historical society will take center stage with a multimedia exhibit in the claflin room from one thousand am to four hundred pm", "the garden club will also host a flower arranging demonstration from one until two hundred pm", "the threeday celebration wraps up on march 4th with a family birthday party complete with crafts cake and a used book sale", "struzziero is most excited to see the floral displays", "he has heard the garden club is creating a visual of frankenstein his favorite book", "this year also marks the 200th anniversary of the writing of frankenstein", "books in bloom is not only a way to celebrate the library's past", "the event will also serve as a public introduction to the belmont library foundation", "the foundation exists to help raise money for the construction of a new public library", "for the past couple of years the foundation was dormant but it is now experiencing a period of revitalization", "i wanted to find an opportunity for the blf to have a coming out party and let the public know they exist said struzziero", "it will be a prime time for the foundation to interface with the public", "and to let everyone know the important work they are involved with for the library looking towards the future", "while the library celebrates its past it is also preparing for the future", "over the years its role in the community has shifted to remain relevant according to struzziero", "we are much more than a place to access information said struzziero", "we are really the living room of the community and a place where you can come and enjoy a wide spectrum of different programming for all ages", "we really have something for everyone here while the library's core functions have adapted and kept up with the changing times its structure has not", "david stievater president of the belmont library foundation has begun the process of building a public private partnership to help fund a new library building", "the building is at the end of its useful life said stievater", "it needs to be constructed and oriented in a way that meets the needs of our community today and in the future", "the discussion around building a new public library is not new", "the town commissioned a feasibility study in two thousand and sixteen to explore three options for improvements", "the first option was a renovation only with no additions", "the second option was renovations and additions", "finally the third option looked at new construction", "the architect firm johnson roberts associates inc completed the study in may two thousand and seventeen", "the study recommended the third option as the most efficient", "the proposed facility is a two story structure with thirty eight thousand nine hundred and fifty square feet", "the current library is approximately twenty nine thousand six hundred and fifty square feet", "both stievater and struzziero believe a new public library will better serve public needs", "stievater noted that a surprising number of residents visited the watertown or arlington library over the belmont library", "there are two main reasons", "they do not find what they're looking for in belmont", "and they prefer the space in watertown and arlington", "they feel the space is more inviting", "we do not want to lose those people said stievater", "they are belmontians we want them", "we would love to have them to be a of our community and our library", "a building committee for the new library has been appointed and has been meeting since january", "they are currently working on a request for bid for an owner's project manager and hope to have a schematic design for the new building by the late fall", "kathy keohane chairman of the board of library trustees said there will be more community meetings seeking input throughout the process over to you bob", "thank you max", "outstanding teacher award nominations now open", "the foundation for belmont education recently announced that nominations for the two thousand and eighteen outstanding teacher awards and the s warren farrell award for educational excellence opened on february 26th", "this recognition program sponsored by the belmont savings bank foundation identifies and celebrates the extraordinary contributions made by teachers and the belmont public schools", "belmont is fortunate to have a cadre of excellent teachers who bring enriching educational experience to students throughout the district", "with the fbe's outstanding teacher awards the community has a chance to honor the talented and dedicated teachers who work hard every day to make a difference for our students and for the belmont public schools", "community members colleagues parents and high school and middle school students can submit nominations for teachers who deserve the special recognition", "nominations are accepted between february 26th and march 31st by filling out an online form", "teachers from belmont's six public schools are chosen for this award", "the recipients are honored first at a surprise classroom visit and then at a district wide award ceremony on may 1st at the chenery middle school", "and now over to claire", "thank you bob", "beacon hill roll call", "there's a plan to coordinate efforts to combat alzheimer's", "house one hundred and fifty three to zero approved house one hundred and fifty three to zero approved and sent to the senate a bill requiring the governor's executive office of health and human service to assess all current state programs that address alzheimer's disease", "and create and maintain an integrated state plan to overcome the illness", "the plan would include accelerating the development of treatments that would prevent halt or reverse the disease", "helping to coordinate the health care and treatment of individuals with the disease ensuring the inclusion of ethnic and racial populations who have a higher risk or are the least to receive care for the disease and implementing a strategy to increase the diagnostic rate", "another provision requires doctors physician assistants and nurses to complete a onetime course of training and education on the diagnosis treatment and care of patients with alzheimer's dementia or cognitive impairments", "the measure also creates an advisory council on alzheimer's research and treatment to work closely with the state agencies and the legislature", "alzheimer's disease is a growing epidemic", "it's impacting hundreds of thousands of massachusetts resident said jim wessler president and ceo of the alzheimer's association massachusettsnew hampshire chapter", "supporter said that this disease affects more than one hundred and twenty thousand people in the bay state", "and according to the alzheimer's association that number is projected to increase by twenty five to one hundred and fifty thousand by two thousand and twenty five", "to one hundred and fifty thousand by two thousand and twenty five", "to one hundred and fifty thousand by two thousand and twenty five", "to one hundred and fifty thousand by two thousand and twenty five", "they argued deaths from alzheimer's have nearly doubled from two thousand to two thousand and fourteen from two thousand to two thousand and fourteen and it is time for the state to step up to the plate and lead the way in the care for people with alzheimer's and in the fight to eradicate it", "now to max", "sadly we're out of time", "over to you bob", "along with my colleagues claire and max we thank you for listening to the talking news and hope you've enjoyed the show", "we will returned next week for another edition of local news happenings around belmont"], "name": ["snafuinfinityTalking_News_02272018/snafuinfinityTalking_News_02272018/Talking_News_02272018_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "snafuinfinityTalking_News_02272018/snafuinfinityTalking_News_02272018/Talking_News_02272018_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "snafuinfinityTalking_News_02272018/snafuinfinityTalking_News_02272018/Talking_News_02272018_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "snafuinfinityTalking_News_02272018/snafuinfinityTalking_News_02272018/Talking_News_02272018_DOT_flac_00003.flac", 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participating in town day", "this is how many years in a row ladies we've been doing it since its inception yeah", "the belmont center business association does a wonderful job in organizing and we've got lots of giveaways", "belmont savings has wonderful accounts so come on down and open an account", "great and it looks like you have a whole a whole crew here eager and ready to wait on us", "so what kind of products do you have for a for giveaway or it looks like a red sox baseballs or not quite not quite", "belmont savings bank squish balls for the kids for the babies", "we've got some belmont savings bank cookies you know pens", "currently we're running a promotion as a giveaway for a new checking account at belmont savings", "we're giving away a fifty gift certificate to nick's place", "and we also have a program in place for referring a friend", "if you have a current checking account with belmont savings and you refer a friend you both can earn up to fifty for it", "ron rossi retired after forty years of service with us he did a wonderful job and belmont savings is one of the few banks that are actually making money", "last year we had a banner year this year we have a new president bob mahoney formerly of citizens bank", "now he's going to help belmont savings become a force in new england", "here at town day we have some belmont themed products that means we're standing in front of the belmont historical society table", "so let me introduce dalton avery immediate past president and pam price", "so dalton tell us a little bit about the event town day and what kind of people come and stop by and say hi", "oh we haven't i've been here for about an hour now and we started bright and early and i got pretty good traffic", "everybody's wondering around looking at usually people who are familiar with the association", "try to catch up when few things that they haven't bought before", "and what we do like is guess new people don't know much about us mainly to pick up the registration form to join and to get some of the basics publications about the history of the town and postcards", "and so we're competing with obviously with a lot of jazzy attractions around here but we're not serving any food or drink", "so we're just selling history", "selling history but yeah you do have some competition but i know that you're up for", "do you have a lot of products for any price range thirty five cent postcards up to twenty items", "so i know there's a lot of range here and interests", "so if you lived here i always say if you live here a day or a decade we're all part of the belmont history", "pam usually keeps the money straight", "so tell me if we had any sales", "not since i got here i think we just sold one book and that was it", "so we have a little notepad with some sales", "we sold that a couple of the one hundred and fifty facts", "so the couple of the here and now books and some of the pins lapel pins", "since you've been here", "and i know this morning we had some other volunteers come down", "they served the society is staffed by volunteers good organization you want to join to stay connected", "they have put out a quarterly newsletter and that's done by your town historian richard betts come on down to the table", "they'll give you the latest copy on the great depression that was put together by dan leclaire just gave a program", "there's some plates books note cards a variety of product but just just stop by and say hi to dalton and pam", "and they love to talk to you about belmont history and tell you a little bit about maybe where you live", "hi i'm here with donna moultrup from the belmont board of health", "and she's going to talk about i don't know something new something old something new", "that's right it's definitely this is a kickoff of our new sharps disposal program", "for years we've told people to put the sharps the needles and syringes and little lancets mainly for diabetics but other people that would have used those", "we've told them to put them in coffee cans or in heavy detergent bottles and tape them up with duct tape", "and then they can put them in their trash", "now that's okay because belmont's trash is burned", "so that's an alright way to dispose of them", "unfortunately the trucks smash the containers and sometimes they fall out on the ground or the trash workers can get hurt with them", "so starting july 1st the state is no longer allowing people to put them in the trash", "so they're going to need to purchase an approved container like this one the red plastic and they can the health department is starting this new program where they can obtain these", "you can purchase these from us and then we'll dispose of them", "so we'll mark them paid on the bottom it's ten which pays for the container and pays for the disposal", "so they can bring them back to us in a year or they can bring them back to us in six months it'll be mark paid in the bottom we'll take the old one and dispose of it", "they can purchase a new one from us", "and so it'll just be this revolving program", "that's great so it's a new service so that it really is a safer way to dispose of all your needles and sharp objects and keep them out of the trash", "i don't think people will not be upset about this program because especially people from other states come here and say are you guys crazy putting these in the trash you know we had a special program in our state", "and so we've known this has been coming for a long time", "and so we're sure that we just need to get the word out that people will be more than cooperative about it", "so even people today who don't have a need for purchasing these i'm telling em but at least spread the word to your neighbors and relatives", "well we're here at town day and we're with jen santoro and she's representing the belmont municipal light department", "here's the place to be everything happening here", "lots of free giveaways", "jen's going to walk us through the booth here", "yeah of course all right", "so first you can see that we're giving away our for our kids we have some pencils some pens", "we have a lot of energy conservation materials", "we also have our popular led nightlights which are great", "they are sensored", "so when the lights go off they turn on and they're great people love them", "we're giving away", "we're now on twitter so you can follow us", "you can sign up to our bmld updates and you can see what's going on", "we update that frequently", "it's great so if we have outages or we're giving away stuff you can sign up for that", "we also are giving away our big thing we're giving away is called an echo kit", "and it has three cfl light bulbs in it as well as some other little things a limelight", "this is our new this is called the kilowatt and these are available for you can take one out of the library and they're great because you can take any kind of appliance you have at home plug it in and it tells you how much it costs to run it weekly monthly or yearly", "and we actually put in our rate it's great", "and they've been sold out at the library", "they're very popular", "we just bought a few more to you know to have at the library", "so as long as you have membership to the library a card you're able to take out the kilowatt and we're always they help they're great", "so you bring it home you plug your appliance into it and it will accurately calculate the cost of that particular appliance", "sure yep weekly monthly and yearly correct", "and we put our specific rates so you can act yeah so you would know how much it will cost to run it", "know how much you can save when you're not running it so that's something", "shut it off but some that doesn't need to be plugged in", "you can see how much you're saving by shutting it off", "fantastic okay", "we have other fluorescent things energy meters", "yeah we have it's like some fun giveaways", "we have the rulers for the kids and adults as well", "we also have these are our wheels which are nice kind of just like it'll run whatever you want or whatever appliance it may be", "you go around and it tells you how you can save and what you can do to save energy", "that's fantastic as well", "so people should visit", "definitely come stop down the belmont it's the light department help savings help go green and meet jen and her crew here", "you can always come and give us a call if they have any questions on how they can help and conserve we're always there to help", "as well as they can check out our website", "we do put a lot of information on the website and yeah they can always come down if they come pay their bill or just stop in and say hello", "we do offer we do have free cfl light bulbs", "if we have them we usually always do", "and we also give away our led nightlights as well", "wow well have fun at town day and thank you", "thank you very much", "i'm with john kolterman he's the vice chair of sustainable belmont", "he's going to tell us a little bit about their initiatives and the display they have set up", "so john take it away", "oh thank you", "so sustainable belmont is an organization in town and it's part of vision21 and five years old", "we're really looking to cut the carbon footprint of the community by eighty by the year two thousand and fifty", "ambitious agenda", "it's very ambitious but i think also quite doable", "it's going to take some work so that we have a climate action plan which kind of outlines some ideas on how we can get there", "and that's a very big part of what we're trying to do", "at the same time we're getting ready to roll out an initiative called cool belmont", "and that's what you're the new initiative that you're talking about here with some information they can pick up on the table", "so cool belmont you can tell us a little bit about that", "sure so we're actually looking for volunteers to get involved with this", "we need a lot of people with very a variety of talents anywhere from web designers to community organizers and so forth", "so we're basically going to be looking to kind of do outreach to the community and get residents involved and seeing what they can do to lower their own energy usage and carbon footprint in their own homes", "and that's going to be a big part of that", "so it's starting somewhere and you're just launched the program", "and how can people get in touch with sustainable belmont do you have a website or you're in town i mean how would they if they want to volunteer yes", "how would they do that so sustainable belmont what's our email address sustainablebelmontgmailcom", "yes sustainable belmont one word or string gmailcom", "okay", "they just email us", "we'll definitely get it get them in touch", "and then we have a website it's the same old belmontnet", "and that's another avenue where they can find out more about us", "and also i had we have a monthly meetings open to the public", "let's see the first wednesday of every month at the library at seven o'clock", "so that's great", "so that's a lot of ways people can sort of get involved and you're trying to get the word out", "so you're here at town day", "you've been here other years or is this the first time yeah this is at least our second or third year here", "fifth year", "fifth year", "fifth year that we've been around", "okay okay", "well jen since you're standing by here tell us a little bit about the table you have some displays", "is this just a explanation just introducing the sustainable belmont in general or what do we have here for handouts we have a variety of handouts here", "one is general information about sustainable belmont when we meet how to get in touch with us", "and it has just a few tips on what you can do to save money and cut your energy costs", "great okay", "we have a flyer about the cool belmont program and what it is and how people can get involved", "and then we also are helping to promote the belmont municipal light department's clean energy program that people can sign up for and for paying a little bit extra per month they can actually purchase energy for their electricity from a clean energy sources such as wind as solar", "and that's in combination or that's coordinated with electric light department", "you just sign up for it", "they put a little surcharge on your bill each month and you're buying clean energy", "and then you're green", "that's right", "okay so great", "so and some handouts so good to see you down here and hope you have a nice day", "and it's all about getting the word out i think", "that's right thanks for stopping by", "hi i'm tim hawkins", "this is steve conley", "hi how are you belmont boosters organization that supports high school and athletics for the whole town all the different teams", "do a lot of equipment and uniforms and jackets", "we don't do the carnival anymore so this year we're doing a barnyard bingo", "effectively a raffle first prize of two thousand five hundred", "yeah i saw it in the paper on and i wasn't well it sounds really interesting", "it's something new", "you're doing it out in the field", "so tell us what that will be like", "we'll block off the field lay out the lines make a grid", "and we're going to have a cow just gonna wander around the field", "and everybody buys a deed", "in fact someone's here to buy a deed right now", "and they're only ten", "so we encourage anybody to buy a deed win money but that doesn't even matter", "you're helping belmont athletics", "absolutely no that's the", "don't want us to lose any sales", "don't wanna lose any sales okay", "and i hope everybody will be encouraged to come down and pay ten get involved in the belmont boosters support the barnyard bingo and", "up till the time that the cow mingles on the field", "so if it's a nice day like today it's going to be tons of fun bring the kids down and it's a nolose situation so", "there's food think a big family affair", "something for everyone", "yes tell us what it is", "june 12th and tell us besides coming down to town day how can we buy a plot how can we you have them email how do we contact you you can come down to conley's pub and grille which is at one hundred and sixty four belmont street in watertown but basically serving the greater belmont community", "for all the hunger and thirst needs", "i'm down there so you can just ask for me stephen and i have a bunch of them and we'll be selling them again right up to june 12th", "we're stopping by the booth the belmont farmer's market", "i think you're in about your like your sixth year", "that is that right think it is six yeah", "and so what do you have going on when's the grand opening thursday june 10th every thursday through october 28th", "and it looks like it has some expanded hours one hundred and thirty to seven hundred now", "so that's good", "and it's in the parking lot still behind the block of business behind leonard street", "you come every week we have some who come every month every other week", "so we have an enewsletter people can sign up for and that will tell them who's going to be here and who's not", "we have a newsletter that goes out to we send it home with the school children", "four newsletters a year two in the spring two in the fall that go home to the kids", "and what else do we have well tell me you know what tell me a little bit about the vendors because i know that you were awarded actually for two thousand and nine the best of boston for farmer's markets and that was pretty prestigious award to be receiving and you have a list here of the vendors but what kind of products what kind of variety can we expect if we come down to the belmont farmer's market we have four five different produce people", "some are organic", "most of them use very few pesticides even if they don't clean even if they're not fully organic", "we have a grass fed meat vendor", "we have some people sell flowers", "we have some sauces and next door cheeses", "we have the lady next door makes cookies", "everything is made locally", "that's the requirement", "and it passes the belmont health department tests", "what else do we oh well we have some vietnamese cambodian farmers who do wonderful wonderful greens all kinds of asian greens for people who like eastern asian cooking", "and then we also have some events during the market where we have some musicians coming", "we have the dancers coming this year and we are doing some events for kids so that there's activities going on", "and everyone's having a good time at the market", "and i've talked to a lot of people when they just come they just come to socialize", "they come they wander around they sample this they buy a few things but it's really just to get the community to come out meet gather so it's been fun", "have you found that the same true our vendors are awesome", "they're really interested in teaching people about the stuff that they're growing what they can make with it", "and we do have some prepared foods but again pretty locally prepared", "and so people will give you recipes and tell you what to do", "the community aspect is wonderful and people can come here and see all their friends even if they don't buy anything they're gonna bound to have a good time", "good to see you here at town day", "we just watched your bull ride", "is that the first time you've been on the bull yeah it was kinda like i thought i was going to stay on for a long time", "like the first round i stayed on for the longest but the second i fell off like kind of right away", "looks you had a little bit of trouble but you got back on and you gave it another try", "yeah it was kind of like all of the sudden like you're spinning around and then all of a sudden stop and then spin around and then stop", "and then like you're going back and forth back and forth back and forth", "so it's hard to keep your balance or what's the key to a good ride", "be your balance or hanging on tight or what's the secret well like you're turning to one side and want to turn to the other side and hold on really tight to the rope", "so like if you going like that then you can go like that back", "i actually work in the arlington school system and i do this as therapy", "ah we all need therapy", "i guess so", "but most of these pieces i have designed all this the artwork myself and i do all the painting myself", "i work on with two different mediums", "i do glass and crystal as well as pottery", "and the pottery is new it's about two years old", "it's dishwasher safe and microwaveable", "and it's becoming a major portion of my business", "i have a lot of people that like the fact that it's you can throw it in the microwave and whereas the glasses are a little bit more delicate and you have to wash by hand", "i pride myself on the color choices", "i mix the pigment myself so i'm able to get the rich rich color which you normally don't see especially in the glass and crystal and then i bake them", "so yeah it's a process", "it's a process", "and how long have you been doing this i started painting about thirteen years ago", "it's a combination lily", "and when i make this lily this is my hardest", "you have four layers and each layer has to dry before i apply the next", "so just to get this started it's a two day process just to paint this just to paint it", "and then of course you have to let it dry and do all the other things that go along with glassware", "but actually i these are i have a whole a whole slough of pieces ready to come out but i just not through with them i'm not finished", "like i said it does take a long time", "so i've done this the blue hydrangea i'm ready the grape i'm ready my beautiful purple irises", "but this will be out next week", "this is a very popular piece i have to admit", "it's i just call it the swoop dish", "and this serves everything as you can see", "you can put desserts sandwiches", "i love my tomato and what's it like what's it like a salad and i also make my own sushi", "so i lay this out but what's nice about my pottery is i try to paint in the bottom so that if you were to display them or are want to hang them on the wall you can see it from all different sides", "i sign all my pieces so that you know that it is you know an individual piece", "and i only do one or two of each piece at a time", "so it's so it's a labor of love", "it is", "okay well we're here with the belmont rotary club and i understand we were lucky to get the president here at the booth", "so introduce yourself", "hi i'm dr phil scally", "i'm the president of the belmont rotary club and we're here at town day just for the having a fundraiser or rotary a red sox ticket raffle actually to raise money for a scholarship fund", "we meet every tuesday morning at the belmont public library in the assembly room from seven hundred and fifteen to eight hundred and thirty", "it's a breakfast meeting", "we invite you down to come down as our guest to have breakfast and see what we're all about", "see all the good works of what rotary does", "some of the projects we do involve to try to eradicate polio worldwide", "we also raise money for many different things around town and globally", "rotary is an international organization made up of trying to think how many millions of members but", "sandy will know", "how many millions of members are in rotary sandy probably about five hundred million", "we're just guessing", "okay i'm here with a couple of the participants in belmont youth hockey", "introduce yourself", "i'm timmy bailey", "i'm michael brodigan", "and how long have you been playing hockey or been with the program since i was five", "wow", "and so you're on a team a winning team yeah we won two years in a row", "two years in a row and you well my team didn't make the class this year but we did pretty good at the end of the season", "and it's got quite a good program a lot of good competition with the belmont and today here you can come down to town day and support the effort donate some money keep the program going", "so yeah tell us when does it start is it not now in the summer no it starts well for my team it usually starts in like september", "my practices start the games usually start in october", "okay and what position are you i play defense", "and who are you voting for in this year's stanley cup i want the black hawks to win", "black hawks okay go black hawks what about you black hawks", "okay two black hawks fans", "all right well maybe we can get kim on camera here", "she's the answer girl", "so let me see if i could talk to kim quickly about youth hockey in belmont", "tell us how long you've been involved with youth hockey program", "i have been on the board for the last two years but my children have been involved for the past six years", "okay and the board is really the driving force behind the funding of the program or the organizer what does the board do the board organizes the program", "we had developed teams", "they are placed into certain programs the greater boston youth hockey league and the myc the middlesex youth hockey league for the girls", "and we just get the schedules going get the kids the ice and let them play and have fun", "that's great", "how many kids would you say participate in the belmont youth hockey we have a little bit over at about two hundred and forty kids in total last year", "and what age group does it cover we start all the way down for learn to skate which is three four fiveyearolds all the way up to our major program which is high school", "so it's something for everybody", "so we encourage you to come down today and support the youth hockey in belmont", "looks like you're having some signups some raffles some frisbees", "all right thank you", "belmont town day two thousand and ten", "what do you think well it's really fun and all the rides are cheap so we have enough money to get on", "hey great", "and what's your favorite thing you've done so far well that thing over there right where you run and then you go flying back with a bungee cord", "a bungee cord yeah", "ouch okay will have to check that out", "and how about you i like the bounce house", "what's the bounce house this here just like a trampoline like a giant playground", "how about the dunk tank have you been down that end yeah we went there a couple times", "and the basketball you tried that yeah one of my friends almost won a prize but it went right out", "went off the rim okay maybe next time", "but the good thing is you're having fun", "how's the food this year had any sampling anything of the food it's pretty good", "we went down and got some pizza", "yeah the ice cream was really good", "all right", "well good i'm glad you're having a fun time and thanks for talking to us", "you're welcome", "all right well i'm here on the flatbed truck in belmont center on letter street with reminisants", "so yeah yay so tell us a little bit about your group if you wanna introduce yourself", "well anyway we are the reminisants and we've been doing this since one thousand nine hundred and seventy three", "mike joyal and i put the band together back in seventy three and we thought we'd do it for a couple of years and thirty seven years later", "couple a decades maybe", "yeah we're still doing it victoria", "and this is my best friend michael joyal", "how are you you peter benito", "hi nice to see ya", "hello everybody good to see ya", "our keyboard player and he just went through back surgery so we had to sit down and really quick", "you've been together you play here i've seen you here several years in a row how many we've been here a long time back and we love it here all right it's one of the real and we do a lot of these things", "so we're pretty good judge of when an event is done well", "it's done really well here in belmont", "and you have to tip your hat to the people that organize it because it's a lot of work to organize it", "and they do a great job every year", "now the reason that we are here all these years our music is not really that good", "we guarantee good weather whenever people hire us", "so and that's why they keep they told us many times you know i wish your music was better but your weather it's outstanding", "and today is no exception we have a beautiful day not too hot", "and i know what you're sharing the stage afterwards will be some other bands who will come up maybe the belmont", "how does that work does the belmont high school come up the high school and they set up down in front of the band and it's wonderful kids that play some great great music and it's a lot of fun", "it's a lot of fun", "and i know i've been here in the past when you have people out here dancing", "so you're taking a short break now but you'll be back with us a little bit for another set or you know the problem victoria is in our contract", "we're supposed to sample all the food here in belmont", "now obviously looking at us you know we do a lot of these concerts", "so we test all the food to make sure it's good", "and we do we take it very seriously", "well i don't want to hold you here any longer", "this is your break", "could we say one more thing you could say anything you want", "the people that are watching this i want to remind you that the tv puts two hundred pounds on we're actually victoria tell em we're really thin right we're really thin", "you're all looking good", "and i thank you for sharing the time with us the reminisants come and check them out in belmont", "i'm sure you'll play other groups", "we'll look forward to hearing you this afternoon", "thank you", "thank you so much", "representatives from the powers music school", "let me know your name", "nina grimaldi", "yas ishibashi", "okay great", "and we'd love to hear about what's going on at powers", "one of the reasons we're here today is that we have a really longstanding program seventeen years running called the powers powwow", "and it's a summer camp for children aged five to around ten with a cit program tacked on for kids who don't want to leave the camp", "we have kids who've been coming to us back probably for maybe nine or ten years", "and i assume it's you give me the dates the weeks that it's available", "yeah there are four sessions starting well actually june 21st", "june 21st and it's the first session", "and then it would do it in july", "and two sessions in july and then one session in the beginning of august", "so you can take one or all of the sessions depending on your interest and the age group you're talking about around five to eleven and in kindergarten", "have a cit program from eleven i mean twelve to fourteen", "and i know it's a music school so what kind of activities will they will the kids be involved with when they get to the camp they do violin lessons piano lessons eurhythmics class", "we do singing and staging to get ready for the production", "they have an acting class", "we have a big arts and crafts component so that we're making the sets and the costumes for the production", "so it's a total musical theater experience", "it's a total musical experience theater", "it's right away", "it's right here in belmont", "and you're taking enrollments now applications now for this summer season", "yeah all four sessions have openings", "and how can you besides coming down to town day and signing up how can we access the information you can google powers music school in belmont", "powersmusicschoolorg and you can get into our website and then information is on the website", "so information is available", "well we wish you good luck with the camp", "and i hope you have a nice day today", "thank you", "thank you very much", "it's really helpful for us thank you", "i'm nancy dignan and this is the friends of the belmont public library and this is josephine fang and dianne coulopoulos they're also friends of the belmont public library group", "great and great to have you here at town day", "have you been here before i think we've been here for as long as they've had town days", "many years", "and what kind of things did the friends do tell us a little bit about what you what you do with the friends group", "well we raised money to support the library and we do so by having book sales throughout the year at an annual book sale and fundraisers we also do and support the music series on saturdays and the author series that the library puts on as well as a lot of programs", "a museum passes for families that they can use for supporting also the revamping of the website this year", "it's a lot going on"], "name": ["snafuinfinityTownDAY_2010/snafuinfinityTownDAY_2010/TownDAY_2010_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "snafuinfinityTownDAY_2010/snafuinfinityTownDAY_2010/TownDAY_2010_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "snafuinfinityTownDAY_2010/snafuinfinityTownDAY_2010/TownDAY_2010_DOT_flac_00002.flac", 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onto the talking news", "five things to know about marijuana in massachusetts by jerry tufte", "one year after massachusetts voters passed a ballot question legalizing marijuana legal pot sales remained several months away", "state legislators are working to lay the groundwork for new retail pot industry and lawmakers in july passed a new law that tweaks the measure of voters approved last year", "here are five things to know about the legal status of marijuana one year after the two thousand and sixteen vote", "possession of limited quantities of marijuana has been legal in massachusetts since last december but it remains against the law for anyone without a retail license to sell pot for recreational use", "since the cannabis control commission is still setting regulations retail sales are unexpected to begin until july of two thousand and eighteen", "it's legal under state law to give up an ounce of marijuana as a gift", "as long as no compensation is received", "when retail sales begin pot will be subject to up to twenty in combined state and local taxes", "in cities and towns where the majority of voters oppose the two thousand and sixteen ballot question to legalize marijuana the municipal council or board of selectmen can ban retail sales", "in communities where the majority of voters favored legislation in two thousand and sixteen a popular referendum is required to ban or limit retail pot sales", "adults twenty one and older can legally possess up to one ounce of marijuana on their person but no more than five grams of a marijuana concentrate", "you can have up to ten ounces of pot in your primary home but it has to be locked in a secure location", "five quarters collectively weigh approximately one ounce and a nickel weighs five grams", "the public consumption of pot is illegal period", "state law prohibits people from using the drug in places that have banned tobacco use", "the employers are allowed to ban marijuana use at the workplace", "you can legally smoke pot on your own property but it can get complicated if you rent", "landlords are allowed through lease agreements to explicitly prohibit smoking and growing marijuana on their property", "the state law however does not allow landlords to bar tenants from consuming smokefree marijuana products such as edibles on the property unless failing to ban such consumption would cause the landlord to violate federal law", "state law allows adults to grow their own marijuana at home", "there's a limit of six plants per adult over twenty one or twelve per household", "the plants must be grown in an area that is equipped with a lock or secure device", "they can not be visible from a public place with an unaided eye or without the use of an aircraft", "people processing their homegrown plot at home to make an extract cannot legally use a liquid or gas other than alcohol that has a flashpoint below one hundred degrees", "smoking pot while driving or operating a vehicle while under the influence of marijuana products including edibles remains illegal", "it is also against the law to have an open container or unsealed package of marijuana or marijuana products in a car unless it is in the trunk", "and now over to claire", "thank you bob", "community preservation funds sought for six projects by joanna k tzouvelis and kristi armstrong", "there are six applications seeking funding from the belmont community preservation committee for fiscal year two thousand and eighteen ranging from five thousand for a designs for a payson park musical festival bandstand to seven hundred and eighty thousand to construct an intergenerational walking path at grove street park grove street intergenerational walking path", "donna ruvolo is spearheading a proposal for revitalizing the grove street park to improve the overall look and feel for everyone in the community to enjoy", "we'd like to create improvements while preserving as much open space as possible said ruvolo", "included in the renovations would be reworking the parks main entrance to make it ada compliant and accessible to people with mobility issues implementing a new landscaping plan to provide more shade and creating more integrated ways for people to socialize including a sixfoot wide walking path benches and the seating area", "belmont's recreation commission and belmont youth baseball have also been involved in plans for a batting cage and warmup box", "the thirty five thousand construction site plan was approved last year by the cpc and the grove street renovation committee has been working with the belmont department of public works to bring the project to fruition", "town field's playground restoration", "the playground at town field last had an update in one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven and with so many people using town field especially during the spring and fall soccer seasons a group led by belmont resident courtney eldridge is requesting one hundred and eighty thousand to replace the old playground with new ada compliant equipment", "eldridge said that the scope of the project will be kept small with the renovations happening only within the footprint of the existing playground area and the fence being replaced on three sides as the fourth side has existing tennis court fencing", "the recreation department and the community preservation committee are supportive of the proposal", "mclean barn", "belmont's office of community development historic district commission and land management committee for lone tree hill jointly filed the application seeking two hundred thousand of cpa funds to implement emergency work to stabilize the building envelope ensuring it is protected and arrest for the deterioration", "the mclean barn located on forty six acres on mill street directly south of rock meadow is a historic structure built circa one thousand nine hundred and fifteen and formerly part of the mclean farm", "it is listed on the national register of historic places as part of the mclean farm national register district according to lauren meier cochairman of the historic district commission", "in two thousand and five mclean hospital transferred the property to the town of belmont", "now here's part two with max", "thanks claire yes", "veteran's memorial restoration and enhancement", "the belmont veterans memorial committee is seeking one hundred and three thousand to help restore and enhance the memorial dedicated in one thousand nine hundred and forty located at clay pit pond in the park that designed by loring underwood", "it is one of several veterans memorials in belmont but it is the only one located in an area suited for quiet contemplation", "the historic memorial shows the wear and tear of its seventy seven years", "the wall is falling stones are discolored and mortar is chipping out", "brush is also growing over the structure and could compromise the integrity of the wall", "the flagpole is also aging and the bronze plaque is pitted", "the fundings will restore the existing monument to its original condition", "the wall will be taken down stones preserved and cleaned where possible and the walls will be rebuilt to the same specifications", "the flagpole will be replaced with a historically accurate pole and then an identical bronze plaque will replace the one that cannot be restored", "housing trust", "according to judith feins of the belmont housing trust a draft housing production plan was recently completed which shows that nearly twenty five of belmont's current households are eligible for affordable housing", "more than forty of renters and nearly thirty of current homeowners are costburdened meaning they pay more than thirty of their income for housing", "belmont's housing prices have increased by more than forty since two thousand and nine", "feins said the housing production plan also identifies locations throughout belmont where development opportunities exist to meet these housing needs fit within the towns neighborhoods support economic development and preserve open space", "payson park music festival bandstand", "tomi olson founder of the payson park music festival is requesting funds for a design study to construct a bandstand for the payson park music festival to provide performers with coverage and electricity and to protect their instruments and equipment from sudden changes in weather", "a concrete slab for the performers was put in about thirteen years ago but the issue remains that last minute cancellations due to weather are problematic and costly according to olson", "this belmont concert series has been going on for twenty seven years with a large number of concerts per season", "eleven evening concerts and four friday morning concerts bringing in three hundred to four hundred residents for each evening event", "the bandstand structure would go over the existing concrete slab and would have a woodland look to keep the area as parklike as possible", "it would include an acoustical ceiling and have handicap access", "olson is requesting five thousand for an architectural design study and will seek community input to create a design that abutters can support", "once the design study is complete the project will be costed out and olson will come back to the cpa next year for project funding", "over to you bob", "thank you max", "a look at the highlights of two thousand and seventeen interim town administrator reflects on the major accomplishments in two thousand and seventeen by joanna k tzouvelis", "the belmont citizenherald asked interim town administrator phyllis marshall to reflect on what she believes belmont's major accomplishments were in two thousand and seventeen and what future major initiatives and issues the town will address in two thousand and eighteen", "marshall provided the following list of highlights for two thousand and seventeen", "the belmont high school building committee formed the project team as required to complete module two of the massachusetts school building authority msba building process", "the owner's project manager is daedalus projects inc and the designer is perkins and will", "these firms are experienced in working with the msba process and have been working with belmont officials and the community as we move forward through the feasibility study process with the msba module three for the belmont high school said marshall", "belmont municipal light continues to plan the work to complete transmission line work and retirement of the three substations located at four hundred and fifty concord avenue hittinger street and next to the chenery middle school over the next five years", "the blair pond substation project was completed at the end of two thousand and sixteen", "the community path implementation committee worked with pare pare consulting to present a recommendation on the feasibility of optional routes for the community path from the cambridge line through belmont to the waltham line and possible funding options that may be available", "the result of their work was presented to the board of selectmen for approval", "funding will be required for the next steps", "the belmont water department for the third year in a row has received an award from the massachusetts department of environmental protection for its outstanding performance as a public water system", "the town adopted and implemented the twenty five mile per hour speed limit", "the construction of a new press box at harris field was completed", "special home rule legislation prohibited alcohol license transfer was approved", "going forward all alcohol licenses will return to the board of selectmen", "building committees were appointed for a schematic design for shortterm solutions at the public works and police station facilities and a new library building", "renewal of the cable television license with verizon new england incorporated for a fiveyear term was executed", "the town received the bronze award for design of the belmont street and trapelo road transportation improvement project", "the belmont center parking management plan was implemented", "solar parking meters are now being used along leonard street", "signage was installed in the claflin street parking lot with instruction and fee information", "the former incinerator site located on concord avenue was conveyed to the town by the state was convened to the town by the state", "future uses will be determined", "the town needs to pay for the capping of the site", "board of selectmen chairman jim williams also weighed in on the major happenings for belmont in two thousand and seventeen", "and at the top of his list is the more than fifty reduction of the opeb liability by nine hundred and sixty seven million thanks to the hard work and efforts of the accounting department and opeb study committee led by retired selectman ralph jones and segal consulting", "and now over to claire", "thank you bob", "town in school's facility director retires by joanna k tzouvelis", "director of facilities gerald boyle sixty two officially retired on december 29th from his position created after the consolidation of the town and school facility departments", "he was hired four years ago with thirty years of previous experience in the field most recently for the town of winthrop", "his biggest responsibility has been maintaining the buildings and managing capital improvements for the town and belmont public schools", "boyle describes himself as a stickler for the details a fast learner and good at juggling multiple projects", "he uses the analogy of spinning plates on sticks from the ed sullivan show to describe his position", "he compares it to how the guy would spend one plate then put the second one on and spin it and the third one on and spin it", "the first one would start to wobble and slow down and he used to go back and wiggle the stick to make it spin again", "when you have too many projects to manage you really can't give each one the appropriate amount of effort that it should have and you sort of end up running from spinning a plate and spinning a plate and just getting it before it falls apart", "that's been the biggest burden we've had here is that we just haven't had the people to give the full effort of management", "and it's been a real struggle to have to run from plate to plate said boyle", "cindy papa has been working as boyle's administrative coordinator for the facilities department since two thousand and fourteen quote i'm going to miss his sense of humor his consistency and the ease about him", "even under stress he is very respectful to people and tries to juggle all the projects at once and give everybody the same attention which is difficult said papa", "she said boyle is definitely one of the best managers she has had accomplishments boyle feels gratified about what he was able to accomplish in four years understanding that there is still a lot more to do", "he said one of the greatest highlights during this time has been helping belmont become part of the state green community program which has helped the town become eligible for up to two hundred and fifty thousand in grants annually", "this year grant money helped fund the boiler replacement at the burbank in windbrook and ceiling insulation at the library", "his office has also helped apply for a grant for electrical vehicles from the state which are currently being used by his departments the health and water departments for intown trips", "there are many other projects he helped with including the harris field press box and currently the restoration at the fire station", "challenges", "boyle faced many challenges in his career with belmont such as updating the fire alarm system at the belmont high school adding six modular classrooms at the chenery middle school and most recently working on the contract for four additional modular classrooms at the burbank elementary school", "when chloramine levels at the belmont high school higginbottom pool we're testing high the summer of two thousand and thirteen the entire pool needed to be drained cleaned and repaired", "an ultra violet filter was added to the water line for the pool which has helped reduce the chloramine levels", "he said the pool should be drained and cleaned every five years another challenge boyle dealt with most recently was lead testing of all the fixtures in the belmont public school buildings", "his department did a representative sample of all the water in the belmont public school buildings to test for lead when the issue was first in the news", "and now here's max", "thanks claire", "veterans memorial receives one hundred thousand matching grant by ellen schreiber", "once again the belmont savings bank foundation has left an indelible mark on the town", "last month a one hundred thousand check was given to the belmont veterans memorial committee when the committee successfully raised another one hundred thousand to match the foundation's challenge grant", "the grant will fund a significant portion of the three hundred and fifty thousand project to restore and enhance the veterans memorial at clay pit pond", "and with the matching donations it puts the committee well past the halfway point", "qoute the belmont savings bank foundation understood the importance of the memorial for belmont's veterans their families and the entire belmont community unquote said angelo firenze chairman of the belmont veterans memorial committee and a former belmont selectman", "bob morrissey chairman of the foundation board pointed to the vision of the veterans memorial committee as the inspiration behind the one hundred thousand matching grant", "the memorial is for the entire belmont community said morrissey", "the project is bringing people together to pay tribute to belmont's veterans and create an important public space for belmont residents", "we are a community bank with a long history in the belmont community and this is exactly the kind of support we want to support sorry kind of project we want to support excuse me", "at seventy seven years old the existing veterans memorial at clay pit pond is showing its aged", "the stonewall is largely concrete patches", "the structure is compromised and the brass plaque is beyond repair", "in its current shape the memorial does not properly honor the memories of our service men and women", "the memorial project will restore the historical monument to its original condition", "and new memorial stones will honor the contributions of belmont veterans in each individual military conflict since the town's founding in one thousand eight hundred and fifty nine", "the enhanced memorial will also be a focal point alone the soon to be built intergenerational walking path around clay pit pond with benches for quiet rest and contemplation", "over to you bob", "thank you max", "clean water advocate flow of info a public health risk by dan atkinson and jordan graham", "the state keeps mostly paper records that are not readily accessible on when and where millions of gallons of raw sewage pours into bay state rivers a public health failure that needs to be fixed clean water advocates said", "about twenty eight billion gallons of untreated wastewater runs into the state's rivers every year despite decades of efforts to fix antiquated drainage systems", "the state department of environmental protection collects annual reports on how much tainted water has passed through more than one hundred and eighty combined sewer overflows pipes that allow wastewater to dump right into rivers", "but that data is organized in one central not organized in one central place", "most of those reports are submitted in paper form and that information is not currently aggrandized said dep spokesman edmund coletta mass department is the massdep is reviewing ways that the information can be aggrandized", "legislation filed by state senator patricia d jehlen a democrat from somerville would require dep to alert residents whenever an overflow occurs and publicly post overflow data on daily basis and maintain that information for at least ten years", "providing that critical information needs to happen as soon as possible said gabby queenan of the massachusetts rivers alliance", "this is a public health risk", "having this information in a more transparent way on dep's website needs to be prioritized queenan said", "unfortunately dep has staffing and resource limitations which we're sympathetic too but this can't sit on the back burner any longer", "last autumn a storm slammed eight million gallons of wastewater into the merrimack river when laurens sewage treatment plant lost power and thirty two million gallons of untreated sewage spilled into the river after the heavy rains overwhelmed a low filtration system", "and now over to claire", "thank you bob", "social worker nun starts home for sex traffic survivors by maren dale news contributor", "although the topic is most often discussed in relation to poor countries modern day slavery also known as human trafficking exists in the united states too", "because of its secretive nature it is difficult to know exactly how many victims human trafficking imparts each year although estimates are in the tens of thousands", "one new program designed to help women survivors of sex trafficking is a residential healing home that will soon open near sioux city iowa", "the project is being led by sister shirley fineran licensed social worker and assistant professor of social work at briar cliff university in sioux city iowa", "she has taught social work for more than twenty five years and has been an active volunteer in peace justice and women's issues for more than fifty years as a catholic nun", "recognizing a need understanding the complexities", "after attending a human trafficking conference fineran realized this was an area of great need she had not been tuned into before", "she said she felt compelled to do more so helped form the siouxland coalition against human trafficking", "shortly after she met a woman who was sex trafficked at age fifteen and is now a social worker in her 50's who helps other victims", "she had been left for dead when she was found by the police fineran explains", "despite this she told me she knows where her trafficker lives and if he asked her to come with him today she might do so", "i was in shock and disbelief but it helped me begin to understand the deep control and trauma that victims and survivors experienced after praying about what path to take fineran felt called to form a safe home for survivors laying the groundwork mapping out a plan", "as a social work leader fineran had the background necessary to move the project forward but knew it would take time and hard work", "she set a goal of two twelve years", "in july two thousand and fifteen she invited community members to discuss the idea and how best to move forward", "the group consisted of domestic abuse shelter social workers trauma therapists law enforcement community activists residential care social work managers child advocacy center staff and others who wanted to help", "four immediate tasks were to develop a board of directors locate a potential site raise money and file paperwork as a nonprofit organization and to cooperate as the same", "they realized they were in a challenging spot when they submitted applications for grants", "without an existing house they couldn't get support but without support they couldn't afford a house", "lila mae's house", "in late october two thousand and sixteen a home owner interested in donating a house and thirty five acre property contracted fineran", "an agreement was made and the organization gained ownership of on january 30th of this year naming the home lila mae's house after the donor", "the house and property sit on a hill at the outskirts of our small city", "it is a place of healing fineran said", "currently they are working to raise three hundred thousand to finish the basement adding five bedrooms and two bathrooms", "although funding has been challenging resources are coming in from a variety of sources including foundations generous individuals and fundraisers", "fineran said the goal is to start construction soon and accept up to seven survivors", "now on to max", "thanks claire", "launch assault on bugs with plastic shotgun by johanna alvarez", "killing flies and cockroaches is no longer a disagreeable task after the invention of the bugasalt a plastic shotgun that fires salt at the bugs knocking them out and leaving them ready for the garbage", "an advertising video for the gun has become popular recently in social networks because of its humor", "the short commercial pokes fun at absurd television infomercials and action movies", "the video shows inventor lorenzo maggiore firing the plastic shotgun from various positions including from behind the tree", "but the product's real job is to kill flies without damaging anything around them", "all the shots end with a slow motion sequence of the insects being knocked out", "skell incorporated which sells the product hit the market in two thousand and twelve after maggiore launched a fundraising campaign on indiegogocom", "his video attracted clients and media reports around the world", "by the end of that year the californiabased company had received orders for more than twenty thousand units and raised five hundred and seventy seven thousand", "those are the last sales numbers made public", "bugasalt spelled the way it sounds which fires regular salt table salt sells for at least forty on amazon and its own webpage", "its latest model includes a laser scope to improve the shooter's aim", "back to you bob", "along with my colleagues claire and max we thank you for listening to the talking news and hope you've enjoyed the show", "we will returned next week for another edition of local news 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-{"audio_document_id": "talking-news_012219.flac", "identifier": "snafuinfinitytalking-news_012219", "text_document_id": "talking-news_012219.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [10970, 10783, 9990, 1993, 5503, 9540, 6950, 15080, 2153, 4980, 7920, 4137, 2873, 9760, 10460, 2590, 6987, 47583, 22177, 8843, 5370, 6800, 5390, 3710, 7570, 2200, 1370, 3400, 6410, 13523, 11460, 10230, 10030, 10563, 7273, 8017, 4483, 4700, 12580, 11860, 16167, 10203, 8700, 9717, 7803, 9810, 1800, 1520, 2330, 9080, 11490, 8950, 8970, 4350, 1890, 6740, 8540, 3483, 9420, 18713, 4690, 8857, 2660, 12783, 14613, 7593, 20060, 5017, 2393, 11600, 8493, 5647, 8016, 2760, 8220, 4707, 4173, 5870, 7467, 1843, 3650, 4200, 1621, 1639, 3160, 12900, 9420, 25490, 4407, 1840, 9410, 2993, 6537, 3723, 17540, 11047, 12033, 9157, 3393, 5450, 3350, 10160, 14400, 8180, 8433, 2990, 843, 4100, 12070, 3850, 12650, 5000, 11940, 17780, 6460, 10080, 4863, 5233, 13120, 1383, 17650, 5820, 19080, 17590, 6333, 13730, 9547, 16033, 1857, 7803, 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soundcloud and itunes just search for the belmont media podcast network", "and now on to the talking news", "big plans in store at watertown's arsenal yards by angela thoma", "with the coming of the new year residents can look forward to the opening of some new shops and eateries nearby at arsenal yards in watertown", "arsenal yards is a mixeduse development located at the former arsenal mall site", "the development consists of more than a million square feet and will be comprised of shops eateries office space four hundred and twenty five residences fitness services a hilton hotel a green space and a bike path", "there will be forty tenants in total", "the wilder companies and boylston properties are the developers", "finding the right tenants for arsenal yards is a challenge according to boylston properties principle bill mcquillan", "the developers are looking for tenants who fit two needs", "first they have to keep the banks happy", "what this means mcquillan said is prospective retailers must meet a certain credit worthiness and have a record of reliability and longevity", "the trick is to attract tenants who are also new fresh and interesting and provide consumers with a reason to look up from their screens and to go out shopping", "the retail business is very challenging", "in this world of ecommerce we have to work very hard to find the right people and the right stores mcquillan said", "our job is to create a mix of people who satisfy the banks who have lent us a lot of money as well as satisfy the customer who is going to make the property and the project a success so far there are thirteen confirmed tenants including city works eatery and pour house condesa restaurante mexicano european wax center gap outlet hampton by hilton marshalls old navy pokeworks roche brothers shake shack tmobile the majestic at arsenal malls at arsenal yards excuse me and utra", "mcquillan said representatives in charge of leasing for both boylston and wilder are out all the time talking to potential candidates and trying to figure out who the right folks are for the development according to mcquillan arsenal yards is hoping to bring as many local tenants as possible", "while we have great respect for national and regional retailers we hope to curate local retailers and restaurants into the property he said", "so far mcquillan believes their request for local retailers has been successful", "he mentioned both roche brothers and condesa restaurante mexicano as examples", "roche brothers is a local chain of supermarkets headquartered in wellesley", "locals ed and rick roche coown the company", "currently they operate twenty stores throughout greater boston metrowest and southern massachusetts", "and over to my colleague claire", "thank you bob", "north indian cuisine comes to belmont", "spice delight will be located at sixty three concord ave by rachel kelly", "spice delight featuring north indian cuisine is now officially open under the leadership of owner rusty gill and his business partners rahul bagga raghubir singh and tony padam", "the restaurant is located at sixty three concord ave occupying the space where chinese restaurant golden garden closed in late two thousand and seventeen", "spice delight's menu created by executive chef singh features items inspired by the cuisine of punjab where the men grew up", "bagga said that north indian dishes such as chicken tikka and kebabs are often based on meats and breads instead of rice and lentils", "gill said that the restaurant projects a simple elegance with its clean modern style and traditional indian instrumental music playing in the background", "the food is going to be nice of course but there is a lot more to this experience than just the food he said", "he said that he hopes that the close relationship he has with his partners extends to the guests of the restaurant", "i don't really run this like it's a business but more like a family", "that's what my approach to life in general is based on he said", "gill first entered the food industry selling wholesale pizzas to new england schools after leaving his job pricing mutual funds at state street in the early 1990s", "he owned another restaurant zaika taste of india in medford until just last year when a wegmans supermarket moved in taking over the space", "padam who was gill's college roommate said that he hopes to target spice delight's marketing strategies and social media posts to the interests of the people in and around belmont to make guests feel personally connected to the restaurant", "we want people in here to be looking less at their phones and instead to be having conversations with their families and also with the staff he said", "padam said that the restaurant's management will be posting on instagram facebook and twitter to engage with customers", "gill said that he wants the staff at spice delight to be authentically happy to promote a welcoming energy in the restaurant", "there are a lot of places with decent food but it's the atmosphere which makes you want to keep coming back he said", "spice delight is open monday through saturday from one thousand one hundred am to nine hundred and thirty pm and sundays from one thousand one hundred am to nine hundred pm", "now over to max", "thanks claire", "potential race for selectman seat", "two prospective candidates town meeting member jessie bennett and warrant committee chairman roy epstein pulled papers for the seat by joanna k tzouvelis", "once the news of mark paolillo not running for reelection to a fourth term on the board of selectmen broke within a few days two prospective candidates pulled papers for the seat", "town meeting member jessie bennett pulled papers on january ninth and warrant committee chairman roy epstein pulled papers january 11th", "to be nominated each candidate must collect signatures from at least fifty registered voters of the town to be certified by the town clerk", "at press time neither candidate turned in their nomination papers", "about jessie bennett", "jessie bennett town meeting member precinct one pulled papers on january ninth for the selectman seat", "bennett is the first woman to consider running since alexandra ruban ran against selectmen vice chairman mark paolillo in two thousand and sixteen", "paolillo recently announced he will not seek reelection to a fourth term", "bennett has lived in belmont with her wife stephanie burt for eleven years and their two children ages thirteen and eight who attend the public schools in belmont", "in addition to her experience with town meeting she is a member of the high school traffic working group burbank pta chenery pto part of the townwide safe routes to school group a board member of the foundation for belmont education and the belmont after school enrichment collaborative basec", "bennett was also recently appointed to the transportation advisory committee", "bennett was also part of the steering committee for the yes for belmont seven to twelve campaign and the two thousand and fifteen override campaign", "this is something i feel drawn to said bennett", "when we were trying to hammer out thorny issues like trash issues and traffic problems we need to be approaching it with intellectual curiosity and rigor and a readiness to engage", "i hope that those are some of the qualities i'll bring to it if i'm chosen for the job she said her work on the marketing side of the override and debt exclusion campaigns helped her get to know the issues inside out and upside down", "i had to be ready to engage with people in person and online about their concerns and questions", "i realized that to gain an indepth understanding of town issues you need to be willing to have your butt in a chair during a meeting to dig for the right reports and to reach out and ask questions town issues she said that she is most concerned about currently are traffic and communication", "she believes the current board has made a lot of progress and hopes to keep the momentum going", "we are at a moment ripe with possibility", "we need to be really thoughtful about what our next steps are bennett said she wants to be part of leading policy changes needed to help with the traffic situation and infrastructure", "she also wants to be part of addressing other infrastructure issues in town that are so important and is very focused on the quality of life issues", "bennett said she grew up in a workingclass family and understands how tight money can get", "i want to make sure belmont remains a community that's affordable for a wide swath of people and a place where people feel welcome and valued she said", "her professional experience is in nonprofits", "she was in the marketing department of beacon press for six years and prior to that helped run a literary magazine and book festival in minnesota", "she currently freelances as a web designer and social media consultant", "i try to approach everything with an open mind and rigor and dig in", "i try to get under what gloss people are putting on an issue and try to see what's really going on said bennett", "she considers herself a pragmatic progressive who knows how to talk to people listen to people and think for herself", "i hope that serves me well", "the reality is i respect we all have different views", "we all have to work together on the things that really matter said bennett", "over to you bob", "thank you max", "another candidate for the position roy epstein", "in addition to serving on the warrant committee since two thousand and seven and as its chairman for the past three years epstein has been a town meeting member precinct six for more than ten years", "he also serves on the public works police department building committee community path project committee and belmont light board advisory committee", "his history of service to the town he has lived in for twenty four years also includes being a member of the major capital projects working group municipal light temporary net metering working group as the chairman town administrator search committee and town accounted search committee and belmont light substation site committee", "epstein said that he has been thinking about running for the past few years", "it's a big step he said", "the hours are long and the pay is low and it's a big responsibility epstein would have supported paolillo if he had run again", "had mark continued i would have been delighted he said", "he said he also supported selectman tom caputo who ran uncontested last year", "there's a long list of big questions that are on the horizon", "just to start with the high school dpw police station community path are building projects that need to be completed and they need to be completed well because they involve a huge amount of money and they will have a huge affect said epstein", "in addition to these projects he said there's a very long list ranging from school to capital projects to town budget and much more", "i feel i more than maybe almost anybody right now has been involved in so many of these areas that i thought it would be irresponsible not to at least try said epstein", "he feels gratified by the support that he has received so far from people he has told about his decision to run", "i think the town is better off with a contested race", "there's been a problem attracting candidates even for town meeting and i think it's unfortunate", "the candidates are better in a contested race he said", "epstein works as a economic consultant in complex commercial litigation and is an adjunct professor of finance at boston college", "he became a town meeting member in two thousand and three and joined the warrant committee a few years later because he was impressed at how town meeting looked to the warrant committee for guidance when a significant question came up", "epstein and his wife joanna raised their two sons martin and jacob in belmont who both attended the public schools", "he received his bachelor of arts degree in economics from wesleyan university and his phd in economics from yale university", "and now over to my colleague claire", "thanks bob", "justice remains unserved special report", "criminals run free while authorities drown in open arrest warrants by mike wagner doug caruso daphne chen john futty and eli sherman", "editor's note this is first of a twopart series", "millions of americans are wanted on criminal arrest warrants including hundreds of thousands accused of murder rape robbery or assault while victims wait for justice", "in massachusetts there are more than three hundred and ninety thousand open warrants", "many cases stay open for years even decades often forgotten as law enforcers and judges struggle to keep up with new warrants filed in courthouses across the nation each day", "an investigation by wicked local gatehouse media and the columbus dispatch found more than fifty seven million cases in twenty seven states with open arrest warrants enough to lock up eight hundred and thirty one of all massachusetts residents", "reporters sought records from all fifty states but twenty three did not provide usable data", "among those warrants reporters identified nearly two hundred and forty thousand cases involving violence a weapon or sexual misconduct", "enough to fill every state prison cell in texas michigan and virginia", "most jurisdictions around the nation are doing nothing with warrants like this", "nothing said david kennedy professor of criminal justice at john jay college of criminal justice in new york city and director of the college's national network for safe communities", "the warrants pile up", "as of august 20th two thousand and eighteen open warrants in massachusetts accumulated to three hundred and ninety thousand three hundred and eighty three dating back to one thousand nine hundred and seventy according to data compiled by the mass executive office of the trial court", "the data was provided in response to a public records request by wicked local", "as warrants are issued the majority are closed but a number remain open for various reasons such as individuals are in jail have not been apprehended have been deported have moved out of state or are currently incarcerated out of state", "road court administrator jonathan s williams in a response to the records request citing undue burden or expense massachusetts would not break down the warrants by original offense or provide any biographic information about the accused", "without the charges it's impossible to separate which massachusetts warrants are related to violent charges", "interviews with judges attorneys and law enforcement officials from across massachusetts show a large portion of the unserved warrants stem from minor offenses such as not paying a parking ticket", "warrants cross socioeconomic levels but disproportionately affect poorer communities and racial and ethnic minorities", "open warrants have been a problem in the massachusetts court system for decades explained retired judge raymond doogan who served as an associate justice at boston municipal court from one thousand nine hundred and ninety one to two thousand and fourteen", "paths to a warrant", "authorities issued a warrant when they have evidence someone committed a crime but haven't yet located or arrested the suspect", "many people face warrants because they were charged with a crime or even given a traffic ticket but didn't appear for a court date", "others were convicted but violated their probation", "most people especially those wanted for minor offenses remain free", "as long as they don't cross paths with law enforcement", "people are stunned when they're stopped for a traffic ticket and then taken into custody said peter elikann a massachusetts defense attorney", "if you're arrested on a friday evening and court doesn't open till monday you could be sitting in lockup for three days", "overall records collected by gatehouse media showed one case with an open arrest warrant for every thirty two people in the state providing data", "in massachusetts the number totaled about one warrant for every seventeen people", "now here's max", "thank you claire", "followup continuing with the same story waiting for justice", "police since august two thousand and seventeen have been looking for cornell bell suspected of killing michelle clark of weymouth", "the 33yearold mother who had dated bell in the past shared a son with andly cribb who was hopeful an arrest would be made", "i'm not giving up he said", "i'm hopeful something will come up and justice will be served", "but i honestly don't think that will happen", "it just doesn't seem like much is happening bell was wanted on outstanding warrants for other violent crimes at the time he is suspected to have killed clark", "the search continues but cribb says it feels to him like the effort to find bell has deteriorated", "those responsible for serving warrants in massachusetts law enforcement agencies often are drowning in other duties taking time away from tracking down offenders and new cases with fresher leads come into police departments every day", "law enforcement agencies say they try to prioritize cases but it's easy for some to fall through the cracks if warrants aren't served in the first few days or weeks", "when judges issue bench warrants for probation violators or for those who fail to appear in court police often don't know about it", "judges are buried under their own case loads and rarely have time to pick up the phone to call detectives on individual cases", "judges may have a hundred cases called in the course of a day durken said", "it's very unlikely that judges sitting in sessions day after day are going to remember all the stuff that comes up", "and while many open warrants are related to nonviolent offenses serving warrants can be dangerous", "in two thousand and seventeen braintree police officer donald delaney was wounded trying to serve a restraining order to a boston man who had an active warrant for domestic assault and battery kidnapping and threatening to commit a crime", "delaney lived", "a year later yarmouth police officer sean gannon a 32yearold k9 officer was killed trying to serve a warrant in barnstable", "stanford graham was shot and killed in worcester in two thousand and two after an argument with two other men", "according to a report by the worcester telegram and gazette a wicked local sister publication suspected killer and new york city native omar nunez fled along with his father calvin nunez after the fatal confrontation", "the father was caught in two thousand and six and convicted of voluntary manslaughter and sentenced to fifteen to twenty years in prison", "according to the tng omar nunez was never found and an open murder warrant is still waiting for him in worcester superior court", "law enforcement officers across the nation say the best window to catch a fugitive is within the first few days of the arrest warrant being filed judges police lawyers and reformers use words like flood and fire hose to describe the torrent of warrants", "the courts are overwhelmed the police are overwhelmed", "that's the way it is said sergeant joseph m guigno of the waltham police department", "it's tough to find the time for some of these warrants or cold cases because police work is nonstop", "over to you bob", "thank you max", "belmont's town administrator reflects on past year by joanna k tzouvalis", "one year ago on january the 16th patrice garvin became belmont's first female town administrator", "within her first week on the job she saw opportunities for grants and she was able to enter belmont into a community compact agreement with the state", "a total of thirty thousand from the program is being used for comprehensive financial planning and longterm financial planning", "accomplishments in garvin's first year include finding a new home for the belmont food pantry inside town hall applying for a grant of up to four hundred thousand annually from the state to fix sidewalks and streets with the complete streets policy applying for community preservation funds to design a community path hiring assistant town administrator john marshall who will focus ninety of his time on the recreation department reclassifying budget analyst glen castro's position to budget director helping start a belmont school study group and reviewing nonunion employees", "garvin was shirley's town administrator for about four years before coming to belmont", "her top priority in her new position was to listen before making any changes", "i needed to get an understanding of how the town is run before making any significant impactful changes she said", "another goal she had was to change the staff culture", "she did this by implementing an opendoor policy with all department heads and planning events such as the halloween trick or treat at town hall and an ugly sweater day for town employees", "i want people to enjoy coming to work because they'll want to work", "i'm trying to be more lighthearted and fun said garvin", "her goals for this new year include creating a capital improvement plan and working with the town's new financial task force on a plan to address structural deficits", "she said there is never a typical day", "there are good days and bad", "i like coming in knowing i'm going to make a difference to improve people's lives", "that's what i've always wanted to do", "i love serving the people of the town said garvin", "selectman chairman adam dash said that he is impressed with garvin's ability to obtain grants and state funding and her ability to work with people and come up with solutions such as the new location for the belmont food pantry", "her creativity and management style has allowed belmont to move forward in two thousand and eighteen at a staggering pace", "now that she has more familiarity with the town we look forward to even better things in two thousand and nineteen and beyond wrote dash in an email to the citizen herold", "selectman vice chairman mark paolillo said garvin has had a positive impact on town affairs", "she is smart hardworking and a talented town administrator", "she approaches every issue in a thoughtful way and dedicates her efforts to finding a solution that is in the best interests of our town", "she is a very skilled problem solver wrote paolillo in an email to the citizen herold", "selectman tom caputo said garvin has been a wonderful addition to the team at town hall", "she's very effective at moving the town's priorities forward and has shown a real skill at identifying creative solutions to complex problems", "belmont is lucky to have her wrote caputo in an email to the citizen herold", "town clerk ellen o'bryan cushman said garvin has been a wonderful addition to the town it's residence and its employees in email to the citizen herold she wrote what garvin has particularly brought to belmont she has created a general spirit of optimism and pride in working for the town of belmont", "she is very customer residentfocused to provide a high level of customer service", "she's skilled and interested in bringing separate pods or interests together to collaborate", "she's very interested in moving projects and decisions forward not letting them stagnate wrote cushman", "public works director jay marcotte said garvin has been supportive to his department particularly with the new trash and recycling contract the new smart water meter program and snow ice trees operations and has made several recommendations that they have implemented to better serve the community", "and now over to claire", "thank you bob", "newcomer files papers for school committee peter pantazopoulos filed nomination papers for the threeyear school committee seat on january fourteen by joanna k tzouvelis", "peter pantazopoulos filed nomination papers for the threeyear school committee seat on january fourteen", "pantazopoulos has lived in belmont for eighteen years with his wife olga", "they have a fiveyearold son elias at wellington elementary school and a oneyearold son evan", "there will be two threeyear and one oneyear school committee positions on the town election ballot april 2nd", "incumbents andrea prestwich and jill norton have pulled papers", "prestwich said she plans to run for one of the threeyear seats", "norton who was appointed to the school committee to fill the seat vacated by tom caputo who won the selectman seat last year said she is unsure what seat she will run for", "pantazopoulos currently works as a global portfolio manager for apps associates", "he said he has been thinking about running for two years and believes his finance background would benefit the school committee", "a lot of people have asked me since i have a finance background to run for school committee he said", "he frequently attends school committee meetings as a spectator", "he said his work experience would allow him to feel comfortable challenging budget line items that he has the expertise needed to evaluate actual spending and budget forecasts", "you need someone who is confident and has that knowledge and is fiscally responsible", "i think that's what i can bring he said", "pantazopoulos said he is concerned about access to afterschool care in belmont", "he wants all belmont parents to have access and not have to rely on winning a lottery", "he also said he believes there is the potential to create a revenue stream for belmont by managing its own aftercare program", "pantazopoulos said he voted in favor of the grade seven to twelve school because he knows it will help solve the space issues", "as long as the older students are kept separate from the younger students", "however he is concerned about the opencampus policy safety and security for students in the new building as well as safety of students walking and biking to the new school", "now here we go to bob", "along with my colleagues claire and max we thank you for listening to the talking news and hope you've enjoyed the show", "we will return next week for another edition of local news happenings around belmont"], "name": ["snafuinfinitytalking-news_012219/snafuinfinitytalking-news_012219/talking-news_012219_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_012219/snafuinfinitytalking-news_012219/talking-news_012219_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_012219/snafuinfinitytalking-news_012219/talking-news_012219_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_012219/snafuinfinitytalking-news_012219/talking-news_012219_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_012219/snafuinfinitytalking-news_012219/talking-news_012219_DOT_flac_00004.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_012219/snafuinfinitytalking-news_012219/talking-news_012219_DOT_flac_00005.flac", 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at four hundred and thirty pm and wednesdays at one thousand two hundred and thirty pm on channel nine xfinity and channel twenty nine fios", "listen any time on the bmc podcast network on soundcloud and itunes", "just search for the belmont media podcast network", "now on to the talking news", "twenty five of households eligible for affordable housing by joanna k tzouvelis", "the belmont housing trust recently completed a draft housing production plan which determined nearly twenty five of belmont's current households are eligible for affordable housing", "since two thousand and nine belmont's housing prices have increased by more than forty making the town increasingly inaccessible to households with low and moderate incomes", "according to gloria leipzig cochairman of the belmont housing trust belmont currently has three hundred and sixty five affordable units of housing which are considered affordable but two thousand four hundred whole households that are eligible for affordable housing", "in particular there's a need for senior housing and housing for young and newly formed families in belmont", "the housing production plan identifies locations throughout belmont where development opportunities exist that would help increase affordable housing options", "on january ten the community preservation committee approved the belmont housing trust's cpa application for two hundred and fifty thousand to be set aside to help accomplish the goals of the housing production plan", "this is a stepping stone we need to lay the foundation to build on going forward said gloria leipzig", "leipzig then said there was three key elements of the plan an assessment of the town's housing needs a demographic analysis goals they are trying to meet and strategies towards achieving those goals", "people think of belmont as the town of homes and don't realize the thirty five to forty of residents are renters and about twenty five of households are eligible for affordable housing", "i think that's a pretty significant statistic said leipzig", "only sixty seven of homes in belmont are affordable including apartments she said", "in two thousand and thirteen belmont revised its exclusionary zoning bylaw", "currently a development of six to twelve units must make ten of it's units affordable", "a thirteen to forty unit development must be twelve affordable", "a development with more than forty units must be fifteen affordable", "however a mixed use development is only required to have ten of its units affordable", "the belmont housing trust would like to work with the planning board to revise the exclusionary zoning bylaw to increase the affordability requirement to be comparable to similar bylaws in neighboring communities said leipzig", "two new developments royal belmont which is partly completed and the bradford which is under construction will add seventy two more affordable units to belmont's inventory", "sixty units of affordable housing will be created at royal belmont and twelve at the bradford", "someone who is making up to eighty of the area median income will be eligible for subsidized units", "however three hundred and thirty seven units are still needed to meet belmont's affordable housing quota under the state's chapter 40b law which sets as a goal that at least ten of a town's housing units be set aside for affordable housing", "leipzig said creating affordable house ownership and affordable rental units in belmont is difficult", "the cpa grant will give the belmont housing trust the ability to work with developers who might be amenable to adding affordable units if the housing trust offers them additional funds", "he might be able to buy down a number of units the developer might normally think of as market rate units", "if we offer funding upfront the developer might make additional units affordable said leipzig", "the funds could also be used for predevelopment site work to identify areas in the community where an affordable housing development could be built near public transportation", "most important leipzig said approval of the cpa grant tells other statewide agencies who may be lenders on affordable housing projects the town of belmont is committed to affordable housing and now over to claire", "thank you bob", "arlington native starts inhome chef service for seniors", "he'll come to your kitchen and cook for you once a week by abby matheson", "when arlington native john o'neill lost his job cooking in the tewksbury hospital kitchen he took the opportunity to start his own business", "we were thinking about a food truck actually", "i bought the food truck for dummies book", "that's a really young guys game now", "it's the same as having a restaurant said o'neill", "having left the restaurant business for a business cafes o'neill wasn't looking to get back into the long hours required for that kind of cooking", "while listening to the national public radio one day he found his inspiration", "i came across this story on npr about chefs for seniors and i thought wow this would be just the perfect fit", "i could do as much work as i want per day", "you can do three to four clients a day so i'm not working until twelve at night he said", "and then also just being able to help them that's the biggest thing", "it's fun to cook for people", "people that really liked it and appreciate what i'm doing with the help of his brother christopher mccormick o'neill purchased a franchise of chefs for seniors", "a meal service bringing professional chefs into the homes of the sixty five and over community", "there's nobody else doing this", "there's meal services you can call uber and have them deliver meals there's senior meal service centers aside from meals on wheels there's more upscale ones", "but they're just dropping off said o'neill", "we're in there", "we're hanging out telling jokes other chefs for seniors locations include florida georgia and wisconsin", "o'neill's franchise is the first to hit the northeast covering arlington lexington winchester and belmont", "for now o'neill would be the only chef working for the franchise", "over the next few months he and mccormick will look to bring on more chefs to help expand their team", "finding people is going to be key that are personable and good cooks said o'neill", "to be able to hang out with somebody and engage and build relationships that's going to be key how it works", "seniors or caregivers interested in hiring o'neill can set up an initial consultation session", "they will sit down and discuss the senior's likes and dislikes and dietary needs", "o'neill will then go through the kitchen and take an inventory of what is already there", "that way when he purchases groceries for the meals seniors don't wind up with two of something", "they control the cost of the food said o'neil", "so if they want filet mignons or lobster tails i'll buy whatever they want and cook whatever they want seniors select from a list of twelve menu items to rotate through over a fiveweek period", "while menu items don't feature calorie counts they do note which meal options are best for diabetics contain low sodium and are hot healthy", "some menu options include lemon chicken orzo soup swedish meatballs apple sage pork tenderloin and classic shepherd's pie", "they choose four of those entries and i'll come in and i'll prepare three to four servings of each entree so there will be ten to twelve servings", "by the time i'm done are four entrees o'neill said", "the meals are then packaged and put in the client's fridge or freezer", "after he finishes cooking o'neill was sit down with the seniors and discuss the menus for next week", "now here's max", "thanks claire", "farmers market plans delayed", "selectmen asked belmont farmers market to address concerns of belmont center businesses by joanna kate tzouvelis the belmont farmers market entering its 13th season is facing a delay in the approval of plans for its two thousand and eighteen season", "suzanne johannet president of the belmont food collaborative which runs the belmont farmers market said she was disappointed not to have the group's plans for the two thousand and eighteen season approved at the january 22nd board of selectmen meeting", "chairman jim williams said the belmont food collaborative needs to meet with the belmont center business association to address the concerns of belmont businesses about parking and the day the market is held", "the selectmen committed to vote on the two thousand and eighteen belmont farmers market at the next meeting on february 5th", "selectman vice chairman mark paolillo said the market made a commitment in two thousand and seventeen to have a dialogue with business owners in the fall and it wasn't done", "johannet had said she sent a letter to the selectmen on november 15th which was never responded to", "the letter includes a bar graph of the average number of parking spaces available at the claflin street parking lot at three hundred pm and five hundred pm on each day the two thousand and seventeen farmers market was open", "they did not count available spaces in the locatelli lot only the municipal lot", "there was an average of twenty seven open spaces at three hundred pm and fifty eight open spaces at five hundred pm", "we believe that even with the businesses that have not yet opened there is adequate parking on market days the letter states", "referring to the minutes from the april 3rd two thousand and seventeen board of selectmen meeting johannet said they were never asked to meet with locatelli properties or the belmont center business association before the two thousand and eighteen season just to meet with the board in the fall", "which is why the november 15th letter was sent asking to open the discussion about the two thousand and eighteen market season", "locatelli manager parking regulations hurt", "kevin foley manager of locatelli properties which owns forty nine through eighty nine leonard street said filene's and macy's former tenants got really hurt by the parking regulations the town implemented over the last twenty years", "this is a critical moment for the center", "i want to make sure the new businesses do well", "there are steps we could work on together so it helps both of us", "the issue we have is the parking the last five years may be very different than parking this spring or next spring or the year after said foley", "alexa hadjiliadis addressed foley at the meeting asking if his tenant foodie's market supports him speaking against the farmers market", "you are here and it makes it seem that foodie's is against the farmers market but i know for a fact that they are not she said", "foley said he is not speaking on behalf of all of his tenants", "business group suggests new market day", "gerry dickhaut president of the belmont center business association bcba said his group supports the farmers market and thinks it's good for the town", "but we are also concerned about the new businesses in the center having enough parking for their customers he said referring to cambridgewear didriks and local route which opened in the fall and the wellington restaurant which is opening in the spring", "dickhaut said bcba would like the belmont food collaborative to consider changing the day of the market to monday or tuesday because it's a slower retail day", "over to you bob", "thank you max", "all alcohol license approved for wellington by joanna k tzouvelis", "the de magistris brothers plans for a new restaurant are moving forward", "the board of selectmen approved their application for an allalcohol liquor license on january eight", "filippo dante and damien demagistris coowners of il casale in belmont and il casale in lexington and dante in cambridge are opening a new restaurant in belmont called the wellington to be located in the newly renovated seventy five leonard street building formerly part of belmont center's macy's", "damien said he hopes the restaurant will open in the spring", "construction is underway", "the restaurant will serve modern american fare offer seasonal menu with locally sourced ingredients and include vegan and glutenfree options", "it will have one hundred and thirty three seats with twenty one at the bar similar in size to il casale in belmont", "there will be three thousand five hundred square feet on the first floor where the restaurant will be and a little more than two thousand square feet in the basement for office storage space and restrooms", "the selectmen approve the allalcohol license contingent upon the new restaurant's certificate of occupancy and final inspections and approvals by all necessary departments and issuance of common victualler license", "i am very happy very relieved that the selectmen were deliberately ready to move it along and get us on our way to build this restaurant and open up said damien", "they chose the name because of its significance to the town's history", "the wellington tavern used to be located next to wellington station", "and now over to claire", "thank you bob", "grade seven to twelve option is favored", "the design option narrowed down to major addition with renovated pool and field house by joanna k tzouvelis", "after months of public meetings the belmont high school building committee voted unanimously in favor of a grade seven through twelve option tuesday night", "during the january 23rd meeting the bhs building committee board of selectmen and school committee also voted in favor of the design option known as the quote bowtie or twenty four which is a major addition with a minor renovation of the existing pool and field house", "capacity issues cost derive the decision", "superintendent john phelan recommended the grade seven to twelve configuration to the school committee and gave a presentation outlining how he reached his recommendation", "he said one hundred new students have been enrolling in the belmont public schools every year since two thousand and eleven", "and he expects one thousand additional students through two thousand and twenty four", "a grade nine through twelve high school would not solve the capacity issues in the town's lower grades and would require renovations at the middle and elementary schools costing between fifty four million to sixty four to sixty six million", "these costs would not be covered by the grant from the massachusetts school building authority", "a grade eight through twelve school would solve the capacity issues at the middle school but would still require thirty nine to forty eight million in renovations to the elementary schools to solve the capacity issues", "a grade seven through twelve school would solve the capacity issues for all the belmont schools", "however an additional option to rightsize the middle and elementary schools would cost eighteen million to twenty five million", "phelan also explored the possibility of changing the grade configurations for the middle and elementary school buildings to kindergarten through grade six if a grade seven through twelve high school is built", "he said the butler and burbank elementary schools would only be able to have two classes per grade", "and the chenery middle school would have six classes per grade", "which he said is not educationally sound", "the cost would be twenty five million to thirty four million to renovate the five buildings for kindergarten through grade six phelan said a grade seven through twelve configuration at the high school supports the educational vision for teaching and learning for the entire district", "it would create an asset for the town and provide breathing room in all the schools", "financially he said there is no vehicle for funding for renovations to create more space at the existing middle and elementary schools", "committee members tote the benefits", "school committee member andrea prestwich said there a huge positives to a grade seven through twelve configuration", "it was standard in the uk where she grew up", "older students can take on supervisory and mentoring roles she said", "school committee member tom kaputo said belmont could make any configuration work", "i'm confident we can create a great learning environment that matches our vision he said", "phelan said the most important characteristic that makes belmont a successful district is the culture it builds for each grade configuration", "the bowtie design option was selected", "there were four options being considered for the new high school building", "all of which could accommodate a grade seven through twelve configuration", "on january 23rd the school committee board of selectmen and bhs building committee voted in favor of what has been referred to as the bowtie option", "this option involves a major addition with a minor renovation to the existing pool and field house", "it would be a linear construction along the pond further away from the railroad tracks", "it will have four floors and two separate entrances at each end of the building", "the smaller entrance will be for the middle school grades seven and eight or for grades seven through nine", "the larger entrance will be for the high school grades nine and ten or grades ten through twelve", "core space on the first floor of the building will be shared which will include a prefunction area for the auditorium theater and gymnasiums", "now over to max", "thanks claire", "residential snow removal bylaw information", "the purpose of the bylaw is to encourage owners of residential property to remove snow slush and ice for abutting sidewalks so that the town's local services and amenities are reasonably accessible by pedestrians via sidewalks", "a sidewalk is defined as any walkway paved with brick stone cement concrete asphalt or any other impervious material", "sidewalks that do not meet this definition are not required to be cleared under the bylaw", "snow slush and ice must be removed from the sidewalk or treated no later than eight hundred pm on the day following the end of the storm event", "the sidewalk must be cleared to a width of no less than thirty six inches", "a continuous clear path connecting to abutting property is required", "piling snow on the sidewalk at the property line is not allowed", "property owners subject to exemptions established by the board of assessors automatically are exempt from the snow removal bylaw", "property owners are not required to clear a path to the street clear accessible ramps or clear mbta or school bus stops", "corner properties are required to clear both sidewalks along their corner property", "enforcement", "the office of community development enforces the snow removal bylaw", "the department of public works determines when the storm ends and notifies community development", "property owners should wait until the storm ends before clearing sidewalks", "this will avoid the need to clear a sidewalk twice due to snowplowing of the roadways", "community development has two staff members for enforcement of the bylaw", "these staff members are also building inspectors and are required to continue their responsibilities as inspectors even during snow events", "this means they must be available to meet homeowners architects and contractors and perform building inspections", "snow removal enforcement typically occurs in the afternoon", "enforcement is focused on school walking routes and at locations where specific complaints have been filed", "enforcement areas are broadened as more time passes after a storm event", "there are areas such as the along the route to access road where the town does not do the plowing and therefore enforcement is difficult", "property owners are cited only once per event", "if a property isn't cleared they receive written notice for this first offense", "if the property remains unclear after the same event the owner does not receive an additional citation", "if the property is not cleared after the next event a fifty fine is sent", "the bylaw does not give the town the ability to compel a property owner to clear their sidewalk", "property owners are subject to fines up to three hundred and fifty per winter season if they do not clear the sidewalk but they can choose not to clear the sidewalk", "over to you bob", "thank you max", "fire damages three storefronts by joanna k tzouvelis", "a onealarm fire which broke out inside pilgrim shoe repair four hundred and forty eight common street in belmont and damaged neighboring stores the spirited gourmet and fred astaire dance studio was quickly extinguished by the belmont fire department on the evening of january the 14th", "the cause of the fire is under investigation", "according to belmont fire chief david frizzell at about eight hundred and twenty three pm on january fourteen a belmont police officer noticed the fire alarm sounding in the business block of four hundred and forty eight common street", "joint public safety dispatch received a call shortly after from the central station monitoring company reporting an alarm activization he said upon arrival smoke was visible from inside the common area where the fire alarm panel was located", "and after further investigation a fire was seen inside pilgrim shoe repair", "companies forced the front door to gain access and fire was visible in the back of the store", "upon entering the automatic fire sprinkler system activated he said", "the fire damage was contained to the pilgrim shoe repair and there was smoke damage in the common hallway and water damage to the shoe store and fred astaire dance studio in the basement directly below the shoe store", "the spirited gourmet suffered minor water damage", "the fire is under investigation but appears to be accidental in nature said fire chief frizzell", "his department cleared the scene in three hours", "this fire was a great example of how important early detection and activization of a single fire sprinkler had resulted in saving a significant amount of property", "had these elements not been in the building the fire would have been much worse said frizzell", "chris benoit owner of the spirited gourmet said he feels very lucky his store was able to open on january the 15th", "we suffered some water damage but you'd never know it today", "the servicemaster guys came in last night to clean it up", "literally took about a half an hour he said", "and now over to claire", "thank you bob", "it's time to license your dogs and cats", "it's time to do the annual renewal of your pet license both dogs and cats to comply with the massachusetts general laws chapter one hundred and forty and the belmont general bylaws", "make sure you license by the march fifteen deadline to avoid the automatic increase in fees and the possibility of a fifty enforcement violation", "if your pet has an uptodate rabies vaccination currently on file with the town clerk renewal of the pet license can be accomplished in fewer than two minutes by renewing and paying online", "the convenience fee for a twelve pet license is just a dollar twenty two more", "first time licenses for new pets must be by paper application with the veterinarian certificate of rabies vaccination", "pet licensing applications both online renewals and fillable pdf are available on the town clerk's webpage at wwwbelmontmagovtownclerk", "a paper pet license application will also be included with every census mailing to belmont households during the months of january", "beginning march 16th the fees increase significantly", "fees applicable are january 1st through march 15th", "spayed or neutered cats and dogs are twelve or nine if the owner is sixty years or older", "unaltered cats and dogs thirty seven or thirty four if the owner is sixty years or older", "now here is max", "thanks claire", "teacher to debut first novel", "book incorporates the magical realism of childhood by abby mathison", "thompson fourth grade teacher sarah marie jette wrote the first draft of her novel in three months", "but it would be another six years before she was offered a book deal", "i always wanted to get there but i wasn't sure if i would said jette", "the belmont residents started her novel what the wind can tell you in two thousand and eleven", "two kids later she dedicated herself to refining the draft taking advantage of nap time and the evenings after her kids were asleep", "in the summer of two thousand and seventeen jette's signed her deal with islandport press a maine based publishing company", "her novel will be available in may", "the thin line between magic and reality", "jette tells the story of two siblings isabelle and julian who both love the wind", "julian has a severe form of epilepsy", "and the novel opens with him having a serious seizure", "when julian comes home from the hospital isabelle sits with him in his room", "around them the room transforms into the magical world of las brisas", "in this world julian has no physical limitations", "i teach fourth graders", "the line between real and magic is very thin for them said jette", "for them it's very real the rest of the novel explores the contrast between las brisas and the real world", "the love between siblings and between parents and their children", "the novel is is inspired by a family jette nannied for whose son had epilepsy", "after she nannied for the family for several years they had a second child", "on her drive home from visiting the little boys new sibling she was struck with the idea and pulled over on the side of the road to write it down on a napkin", "as a parent you want to protect your kids said jette", "isabelle's parents want to love julian and then protect him and keep him safe", "but his sister loves him in a different way", "inspiring students", "a teacher for ten years jette was used to giving her students edits on their work", "getting edits it's really affected me as a teacher she said i've seen the other end jette showed her students how her draft changed over time how the deleted chapters and characters made it better in the end", "it's great for kids to see grownups doing lots of things said jette", "as a mexican american jette looked to fill her classroom library with books featuring diverse characters", "growing up she struggled to find herself represented in literature", "originally from maine jette said she would get excited when a character had brown eyes like her but there were never any with brown skin", "and over to you bob", "along with my colleagues claire and max we thank you for listening to the talking news and hope you've enjoyed the show", "we will return next week for another edition of local news happenings around belmont", "go patriots"], "name": ["snafuinfinitytalking-news_013018/snafuinfinitytalking-news_013018/talking-news_013018_DOT_flac_00000.flac", 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-{"audio_document_id": "talking-news_013117.flac", "identifier": "snafuinfinitytalking-news_013117", "text_document_id": "talking-news_013117.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [2851, 9510, 12370, 14430, 5070, 12288, 6570, 5778, 12292, 7889, 5481, 8520, 9643, 6817, 10300, 15450, 833, 2510, 9460, 28930, 13090, 10261, 3910, 10880, 12940, 6050, 14231, 7869, 3331, 7799, 7840, 9850, 9140, 11970, 8490, 7500, 20960, 13873, 833, 5740, 9429, 16521, 11650, 4650, 16990, 8600, 5000, 2993, 33073, 14900, 8097, 20042, 6001, 5533, 12560, 6500, 11270, 6731, 8010, 10760, 6890, 11510, 6750, 4550, 15821, 10419, 3640, 4410, 4620, 3143, 10997, 7323, 8580, 15376, 9089, 18590, 2990, 2253, 24880, 10820, 8850, 7770, 4480, 8207, 17351, 20477, 5940, 9690, 12066, 3930, 2910, 7297, 8416, 3190, 1553, 8950, 2620, 14310, 8100, 17393, 26803, 12680, 19190, 7240, 6560, 22440, 6870, 7720, 3310, 2899, 3931, 4920, 11220, 3980, 6340, 12253, 10270, 19230, 15573, 4109, 17350, 10830, 16010, 7250, 6310, 13660, 10930, 7280, 15193, 4570, 7693, 6810, 9173, 5609, 5291, 16067, 9773, 5380, 4400, 4850, 9879, 7503, 3540, 9560, 4260, 10960, 10683, 14550, 9523, 9100, 3200, 8580, 19113, 833, 6750, 11130, 15250, 23780, 9360, 27980, 6193, 10760, 4630, 7380, 12443, 15210, 6320, 8099, 19973, 18597, 4150, 2543], "label": ["welcome to talking news", "we are delighted to have you with us listening to our presentation by members of the beech street center patty marianne and jonathan", "we will be reading local news and happenings from the community newspaper patty patty two prospective candidates for selectmen", "tis the season for pulling papers if you want to run for town office in the upcoming town election on april 4th and it looks like there may be a race for the seat on the board of selectmen currently occupied by sammy baghdadi", "adam dash and guy carboni have both pulled papers to run for the seat", "dash is still in the process of collecting signatures and carboni is has turned in his sign nomination papers with ninety six signatures the morning of january 17th", "the town clerk's office needs to certify fifty of the signatures before his candidacy is official", "as a press time baghdad could not be reached to comment on whether he plans to run for reelection", "the deadline to turn in nomination papers is february 14th the deadline for current town meeting members to notify the town clerk if they are running for reelection is january 24th", "sign nomination papers are due by four hundred pm on february 14th for newcomers and town office positions", "both prospective selectmen candidates are attorneys for their own private practices", "carboni is local government experience includes serving on the water town school committee for twelve years and as water town selectman for six years", "he served as belmont's representative to the mwra for ten years one thousand nine hundred and ninety three to two thousand and three and also served on the noise bylaw committee for belmont", "dash is currently vice chair of the warrant committee which he has been a member of since two thousand and nine", "his first experience with belmont politics was when he was appointed to serve on the community preservation act study committee which was two thousand and seven to two thousand and nine", "since then he has been a town meeting member for precinct one since two thousand and eight served on the zoning board of appeals was vice chairman of this underwood pool building committee and a member of the yes override committee in two thousand and fifteen", "johnathan", "johnathan limited resources hinder fight", "the belmont board of health convened a public forum january 10th at town hall and the status of belmont's opioid needs assessment", "the purpose of the meeting was to provide an overview of the opioid epidemic review the findings of the towns ongoing opioid needs assessment funded by mount auburn hospital community health department describe local efforts and the resources to combat the epidemic strengthen local and state collaborations and discuss what is required from the town and its residents to battle the crisis", "jill block a public health consultants with experience conducting studies for mount auburn and emerson hospitals and the town of concord was hired to conduct the opioid assessment which began last fall", "gathering data from numerous belmont and statewide data sources blocks at eleven belmont residences have died from overdoses since two thousand and thirteen", "the most recent confirmed death was january two thousand and sixteen", "she added that in two thousand and twelve one hundred and thirty four belmont high school students reported taking prescription drugs not prescribed to them to get high", "several findings emerged from the twenty interviews block conducted with belmont school staff treatment and medical professionals family members of substance users and community leaders", "she said both schoolbased and communitywide prevention education were perceived as limited", "the stigma surrounding substance abuse and mental health is a barrier to action and private and pride are also prevalent characteristics of life in belmont which inhibits discussion about such issues", "other interview findings included mental health resources were perceived as limited and frequently cost prohibitive", "greater involvement from mclean hospital was expected", "concerned that that no collaborative group exists to take on a community response", "and there is strong support for greater availability of narcan among all first responders and in schools", "captain david de marco the fire departments ems coordinator explained that belmont firefighters are currently the only first responders that carry narcan", "narcan is a medication squirted into the nose during an overdose that blocks the effects of opioid and allows the person to begin breathing again", "block also said forty of the interviewees were unaware of the confidential drug drop box at the belmont police station for the safe disposal of medications", "police chief richard mcglaughlin said he does not have adequate space to hold all the drugs that are brought to the drop box at the police station", "we're getting hundreds and hundreds of pounds of prescription drugs which are very difficult to store and then destroy he said", "block said the key findings of the assessment to date are the need for better promotion of existing resources in belmont and at the state level and a community education on opioids must be improved to awareness and understanding including the development of curriculum for substance abuse prevention in belmont schools", "crucially important is a point person task force or unifying coalition to spearhead opioid prevention activities in belmont block said no one is viewed as taking leadership on the issue", "marianne", "marianne belmont tony and community service club seeking children's donations", "relax leading edge and belmont center will partner with belmont high schools belmont toni and community service club for a charitable endeavor", "monetary and pajama donations for boys and girls will be accepted at the relax leading edge office monday through friday from nine hundred am to five hundred pm february 1st to the 28th at eighty four leonard street", "for the entire month of february the real estate company will serve as a dropoff point for new winter pajamas for the children's served by cradles to crayons", "the office will also accept monetary donations for the cause", "this campaign is time to coincide with the 10th annual boston bruins pj drive to benefit cradles to crayons clients low income and homeless children ages newborn to twelve years in massachusetts", "new with tags pairs of warm pajamas in sizes newborn to children to eighteen are needed", "cradles to crayons cannot use used or nearly new pajamas", "the tags must still be on each donation", "karen sexton residential sales manager at relax leading edge said we are proud to be working with belmont high school to collect new pajamas that will go directly to local children who need them most the belmont tony community service club at belmont high school has affiliated with the pj drive since two thousand and eleven and raised over four thousand four hundred and collected one hundred and eight pairs of new pajamas last year", "this year three schools burbank wellington and chenery will join bhs to hold pj days where students and staff may wear pajamas in exchange for a donation", "at the high school participants will be eligible for door prizes to be donated by local merchants", "belmont tony and members will collect monetary donations from the community at star market antropola road from one thousand am to two hundred pm february 4th and fundraisers will be held at two fresh pond restaurants chipotle march 7th and bertucci's tba in the early spring", "the group will dry cars at belmont carwash as its final event in this campaign", "this year marks the first time that the club will have a pajama dropoff point for the community", "alice melnikov the bhs community service coordinator expressed her appreciation we are so grateful to relax leading edge for supporting us in this project", "it really does take a village and they have stepped up to support two of our causes this year", "first the fight against breast cancer and now the needs of local children who live in poverty and or are homeless patty", "patty belmont's chinese new year celebration will be bigger than ever by joanne tziotis", "hundreds of chinese belmont residents will be celebrating chinese new year with a gala at the chenery middle school on january 28th", "the gala which quickly sold out within the first week of publicizing is organized by the belmont chinese american association founded in two thousand and sixteen", "chinese new year also called spring festival is celebrated for fifteen days beginning january 28th", "according to kathy gal one of the organizers of the gala it is the most important and widely celebrated festival in of all in belmont and in china", "this is the time for family reunions visiting relatives and friends and exchanging greetings for the coming new year", "it is also a time to bring out the old and bring in the new she said", "families would come together for dinner in the cherney middle school cafeteria on january 28th followed by a lineup of sixteen performances by chinese belmont residents of all ages including traditional dancing folk songs kung fu comedy and rituals", "the different groups of performance have been rehearsing for several weeks at the plymouth congregational church and the cambridge center for chinese culture in waltham", "belmont's chinese new year celebration will be bigger than ever", "this is the second chinese new year gala celebration in belmont", "the first was held at the beach street center last year with more than three hundred people", "this year five hundred and fifty people are expected", "after last year's gala gauss and many belmont chinese american families had an even stronger sense of community and wanted to raise their voice to the larger belmont community", "there was a strong feeling that we needed an organization to better promote chinese culture in the town of belmont she said", "thirteen volunteers established a preparatory committee to set up a belmont chinese american association", "the goal of this association is to organize a variety of cultural activities and encourage more chinese american residents to be involved in community service and set the model for the younger generations said gal jonathan", "jonathan belmont town administrator david kale accepts new position by joanna suveles", "belmont's losses cambridge gain cambridge city manager louis de pasquale announced on january 20th that david kale has been appointed cambridge's new assistant city manager for finance effective march 13th his last day in belmont will be march 3rd", "it's a bittersweet decision said kale", "belmont is my second home", "i am very appreciative of the great experiences i've had in belmont and all the great people i've been able to interact with he said he will always be grateful for the team of talented dedicated and hardworking department heads employees elected officials and various committees he had the opportunity to work with to achieve many accomplishments while working within a framework of limited resources", "he is in the process of planning the budget for fiscal two thousand and eighteen and expects to submit it to the selectmen by february 13th", "selectmen chairman mark pullo said it's a real loss for a belmont's community but it's a wonderful job for kale", "he is a great numbers guy a man of integrity works extremely hard", "we will miss him terribly and are sorry to see him go said pullo", "he said the selectmen will lay out a transition and timeline for the search by their next meeting on february 6th", "the assistant town administrator phyllis marshall will be considered for appointment as the interim town administrator while they searched for a placement for kale and she will also have the opportunity to apply for the position if she desires said pullo", "kale said the new town administrators should be patient and diplomatic and able to perform the four c's collaborate cooperate communicate and coordinate his greatest challenges over the past four years has been trying to move things forward in a strategic and sustainable way with limited resources", "the greatest future challenge belmont is facing is the growing enrollment in the schools said kale", "we need to be able to provide services for the growing in enrollment the high school project will have to move forward", "the board is trying to work on other major capital projects to see if we can come up with a phasing plan and share what the vision is going forward knowing the high school project is front and center", "we have a lot of things in the fire but we also have to run the store", "this is a challenge said kale", "he is proud of the team of staff he's worked with and help build over the last four and a half years", "we've been able to strengthen the towns bench and attract and hire more and very good department heads and support staff", "the town is in a good place in terms of having stability", "there's something i'm proud of", "we had a strong team when i came and i think it's even stronger four and a half years later and it will serve the town well moving forward said kale", "kale himself was no stranger to cambridge", "he is a lifelong resident and prior to the four years stint in belmont he was the city's director and deputy finance budget director from two thousand and three through to two thousand and twelve", "in that role his prime responsibility was to develop the city's annual performance based operating and capital budgets", "mr kale has a strong understanding of the unique characteristics of cambridge and has existing working original relationships with most of our current department heads and familiarity with the many community organizations and neighborhood groups in the city depasquale wrote", "as assistant city manager he will work to strengthen connections and expand opportunities to enable residents to engage in and understand the city's budgetary processes and other public processes while ensuring that cambridge retains its distinct distinction as an innovative community with a strong tax base that allows a high level of public services and amenities", "marianne marianne parents and children react to crossing guard accident by joanne suveles", "burbank elementary school parents and children lined schools street the morning of january 12th to show their love for crossing guard jim mark antonio also a belmont resident who was injured while on duty the morning of january 11th", "they also held signs to pleading with motorists to stay alert and slow down", "many of them even made noise as drivers went by ringing cowbells and clappers", "according to the belmont police report at approximately eight hundred and eighteen on january 11th a two thousand and six honda driven by a belmont woman was heading west on school street when it struck the crossing guard in the crosswalk at school street in sharp road in front of the burbank school", "the driver said she slowed down because she saw a child on the left side of the road waiting to cross", "she saw the crossing guard on the sidewalk and thought he was going to wait for her to pass before entering the street", "her speed was roughly five miles per hour", "she was not able to avoid the collision", "officers spoke to the victim at mount auburn hospital", "he complained of soreness to the hip extremities and head", "he said he was going to assist the child on the other side of the street when he was hit on his left side by the vehicle and only remembers being on the ground in pain", "he said he never saw the vehicle coming down the road", "the driver was issued a citation for failure to yield to a pedestrian in the crosswalk", "according to burbank principal tricia clifford mark antonio's wife jerry said he is doing well has no broken bones is bruised but his home and should make a good recovery", "through the years many improvements have been made to the walking infrastructure around burbank including on gail road and most recently sharp road", "clifford stated in an email to parents on january 11th there is still more that hopefully will be done and can be done as both pedestrians and vehicles increase in number around the burbank school as always safety is the main concern and focus", "we have been working on these concerns over many years and many parents have helped advocate along with the staff at burbank for improvements this will continue and i appreciate your support in this work patty", "patty belmont supports women's safety with vday performance", "a memory a monologue a rant and a prayer presented by vday belmont will be held at seven hundred and thirty pm february 17th and 18th at first church of belmont unitarian universalist four zero four concord ave at belmont", "m m r p is a collection of essays solicited by eve ensler and molly doyle that tell the stories of women who have experienced violence and abuse", "these stories will be performed by local residents including a belmont selectman belmont police officer a professional dancer a vice principal members of first church of belmont unitarian universalist and semiprofessional performers", "tickets are available on evette bright or at the door and cost fifteen", "vday is a global movement that's mission is to stop violence against women and girls", "v season is february 1st through march 8th when vday events are held around the world to advocate for change and bring about awareness to the continuing issue of violence and abuse against women and girls", "the designated beneficiary for the proceeds will be new beginnings reentry services incorporated a program for women leaving prison based in the boston area", "it's the first of its kind in massachusetts and will offer a fully comprehensive residential program with services", "the vday belmont event is cosponsored by the first church of belmont social action committee belmont human rights community belmont religious council belmont against racism and league of women voters belmont jonathan", "jonathan area firefighters help battle fatal blazed by joanna suveles", "ablaze it's six zero six trapellar road at the intersection with agassi avenue has claimed the life of one man", "belmont fire incident commander captain john mooney believes the victim was in his thirties", "the man's body was found on the floor of the front room of the third floor after firefighters conducted a secondary search of the home as the blaze was extinguished", "mooney believes he may have suffered from smoke inhalation and was also burned", "initial reports were that everybody was out of the house said forzelle", "a primary search for victims was conducted on the first and second floors but due to the fire conditions and a big hole in the floor between the second and third floors firefighters had to evacuate the building because the fire took over the third floor said mooney", "the firefighters went into defensive mode and used ladder pipes for about thirty five minutes to knock the bulk of the heavy fire down he said", "many of the buildings residents were alerted to the blaze by others banging on their doors", "it's not yet known how many people are homeless due to the blaze", "mooney said they're now staying at a hotel but he did not know which one", "according to the belmont board of assessors property database the home is a two family house owned by serenity family of newton", "the fast moving fire went through the entire building out through the roof the blaze was largely out as of seven hundred am", "the fire began around three hundred and forty five am", "the original nine hundred and eleven call went to the waltham fire department reporting a fire at six hundred and ten trapellar road in waltham according to mooney", "the belmont fire department received the second nine hundred and eleven call", "the early morning three alarm fire and belmont drew supporting crews from surrounding communities including arlington cambridge water town waltham and lexington", "the boston sparks association a club that provides food and rehab support to firefighters that blazes around the around the boston area also responded", "in a series of tweets posted on the early hours of monday morning that cambridge fire department announced that engines one and nine ladder one and the paramedics of squad four were assisting the belmont crews battling the blaze", "the crew of cambridge's engine five stood by to respond to any additional flagger conflagrations in belmont while the town's crews were occupied", "around six hundred am the belmont police department announced via twitter that trapellar road was closed as crews dealt with the blaze as of seven hundred and thirty am", "the road had reopened but congestion remained", "the department warned of major delays in waverley square and belmont center on pleasant street mill street and trapellar road", "the cause of the fire is under investigation by five agencies including the belmont police and fire investigators the state fire marshall state police sea pack team and the state fire marshal code in forest officer according to mooney", "marianne", "marianne impact of belmont high school's growing enrollment by chris warren belmontwickedlocalcom", "based on the most recent enrollment data presented at the january 24th school committee meeting the renovation of belmont high school can't come soon enough", "bhs principal dan richards said enrollment has increased from one thousand one hundred and six to one thousand two hundred and sixty four students over the past six years an uptick of fourteen", "school committee member elise schuster asked what is the impact have we hired more teachers richard said one additional guidance counselor has been added to staff to accommodate the addition of one hundred and fifty eight students and additional teachers have been funded through annual tax overrides", "he said thirty two high school teachers shared space in two thousand and ten whereas thirty six share space now", "as previously reported the massachusetts school building authority board m s b a of directors tapped belmont last january thus beginning a process that will eventually lead to a completely revamped bhs including the construction of additional space to the existing two hundred and fifty seven thousand one hundred and twenty square foot building", "previously the msba passed over belmont's building proposal for ten years straight", "the high school building renovation is estimated to cost a hundred million dollars which could be eligible for millions in reimbursement from the msba", "the msba building process is comprised of eight modules", "the belmont school building committee formed last april and is currently working on module two", "in the meantime richard's pointed out the recent purchase of hallway benches so that students do not have to sit on the floor when the library and cafeteria are at seating capacity", "earlier in the meeting arto asodorian previewed proposed changes to grades three to five beginning instrumental music program for strings and band instruments next school year", "we have over six hundred students enrolled in instrumental music in grades three through five", "these changes will allow us to allocate three additional sections of music at the high school he said", "the changes are based on two factors according to asodorian resources for the third grade beginning string instruction classes currently in place result in class sizes of thirty or more students per music teacher resulting in a less than effective learning setting", "additionally the fifth grade band and string class schedule results in students who are not enrolled in instrumental music do have study hall periods rather than other instruction which led to a parent meeting to discuss educational inequity last year", "thank you for joining us for this episode of talking news", "please join us again next week"], "name": ["snafuinfinitytalking-news_013117/snafuinfinitytalking-news_013117/talking-news_013117_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_013117/snafuinfinitytalking-news_013117/talking-news_013117_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_013117/snafuinfinitytalking-news_013117/talking-news_013117_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_013117/snafuinfinitytalking-news_013117/talking-news_013117_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_013117/snafuinfinitytalking-news_013117/talking-news_013117_DOT_flac_00004.flac", 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21360, 10600, 1110, 950, 8370, 23143, 17330, 30590, 8140, 21930, 1510, 1640, 4240, 5950, 4910, 4860, 15960, 13560, 2740, 8760, 7740, 1930, 1050, 3190, 12100, 15880, 12913, 3763, 12450, 850, 7000, 6103], "label": ["watch and listen to the talking news every day at twelve noon and six hundred pm on channel ninety six comcast xfinity and channel thirty verizon fios", "it can also be heard mondays and tuesdays at four hundred and thirty pm and wednesdays at one thousand two hundred and thirty pm on channel nine xfinity and channel twenty nine fios", "listen any time on the bmc podcast network on soundcloud and itunes", "just search for the belmont media podcast network", "and now onto the talking news", "belmont enters aarp network of age friendly communities by joanna tzouvelis aarp's state director michael festa presented belmont council on aging director nava nivvogel with a plaque certifying belmont's acceptance as a member of the aarp network of age friendly communities on march the 14th in the selectmen meeting room of town hall", "aarp is a nonprofit nonpartisan organization dedicated to helping people ages fifty and older to improve their quality of life as they age", "as a member of the age friendly network we will have access to support and resources from other communities and we'll be privy to the best practices and get great ideas said nivvogel", "festa said it comes down to approaching all of the work of town government with a lens that sees people living in that community as they grow older twenty years from now", "the age friendly movement is an acknowledgement that it's not necessarily about spending money it's about looking at the truth that you can have a budget and if even take those same dollars and direct them in ways that are appreciative of these needs then you effectively are creating this age friendly movement said festa", "he said it will be important to understand the needs of the belmont community", "many residents aren't aware of the services available to them and don't feel connected to it he said", "he recommended belmont get priorities straight and develop a tangible action plan", "selectman chairman adam dash said the board will continue its initiatives to help belmont seniors such as increasing the amount of the senior tax work off wright off lowering the interest rate on the senior tax deferral program and passing zoning to allow assisted living on south pleasant street", "we do care about our seniors", "if we're also lucky it is the one group in town that will be able to join he said", "the belmont council on aging received an eight thousand grant from the tufts foundation to develop a plan for an age friendly community through a study from the university of massachusetts boston gyrotonic institute", "the report was completed in march of two thousand and eighteen and now on to claire", "thank you bob", "tick tock chocolates are coming to town by joanna tzouvelis", "there's a new chocolate shop coming to town", "it is hoping to open its doors in april at its new belmont location", "one hundred and eleven trapelo road in cushing square directly across from the bradford development", "tick tock chocolates is owned by a husband and wife team dee and jim chaplin of waltham", "dee began making chocolate goodies for friends and family about fourteen years ago", "in two thousand and seven dee went back to school to become a pastry chef studying at cambridge culinary", "dee's experience includes working at blacker's bakeshop in newton debra's natural gourmet in west concord", "her dream was to open her own chocolate shop but was not able to fulfill it on the limited income from food services work", "she returned to her former employment as an engineer to increase her income with the end goal of starting her own business", "in two thousand and seventeen the chaplins took the plunge to work towards starting their own business making and selling chocolates", "they became incorporated as an llc in january two thousand and eighteen", "since then they have been making their chocolate creations in a shared commercial kitchen in somerville and sell their finished products at a local farmer's market popup shows shops and events such as handmade for the holidays at gore place in waltham", "tick tock chocolate's specialty specializes in handmade chocolate truffles chocolate bars chocolate covered pretzels and pte de fruit", "dee makes the ganache filling for all the truffles cutting and hand dipping each one", "jim helps decorate the truffles and is responsible for prep and cleaning", "jim said they only use raw chocolates of the highest quality or fairtrade and prefer to use local andor organic and fairtrade ingredients whenever possible", "their truffles are a bit bigger than their competitors and less price said jim", "the location we chose in cushing square is ideal because it was not too big and has many other popular stores around it said jim", "the previous tenant was the green light which quietly closed its doors last year", "now over to max", "thank you claire belmont league of women voters holds forum by susan schulman pollet in consultation with bev friedman and nava nivvogel", "on march 7th the belmont league of women voters held a forum", "is it crucial to expand support and services for seniors there were over fifty people in attendance", "bev friedman of the lwv greeted the audience and opened with a statement that included concerns that older people have been leaving the town", "those who remain then bear the consequences of a more shrinking social network and isolation", "joel samuel's moderator of the event and an attorney and former general counsel of the state executive office of elder affairs spoke about the friends of belmont coa and their role in the community", "he cited some key statistics which illustrated that at least thirteen of belmont residents are over seventy", "over one third of the total population of the town is age fifty five and over", "nava nivvogel director of the coa and first speaker on the panel enumerated on the ways the beech street center and coa are available to the community", "she mentioned how the results of this study called age friendly belmont support the coa findings about how many seniors are struggling in the town", "nivvogel referenced the safe and healthy planning group an interdepartmental group that meets regularly to discuss and problem solve around complex cases of seniors at risk", "nivvogel mentioned that the group has advocated for an additional social worker to better treat and follow up on these cases and provide outreach to students who are residents who are under the wire", "assistant police chief james macisaac the second panelist reviewed what his department does to support seniors", "police are called into homes where there are health emergencies suspected cases of abuse and neglect and seniors with dementia who wander or in other ways can harm themselves", "they typically refer the elders to services of the coa to springwell and mclean hospital", "however they too are not in a position to provide the appropriate followup", "just to indicate the level of department involved involvement in these types of situations and as an example macisaac is cited that one senior called twenty two times just in the last few months", "fire captain ken gardiner informed the audience of fire prevention efforts such as ongoing forums on topics such as the file for life program and tips to avoid fire risks", "they have funds to install fire and carbon monoxide detectors and frequently go into homes for safety checks or to assist in health emergencies", "firefighters also feel that there are few resources to follow up on the vulnerable elders that they encounter", "belmont housing authority director jackie martin spoke about the lack of apartments for people with mobility problems", "there are many social services needs interpersonal conflicts and issues that they cannot address", "unlike housing authorities in many other communities they don't have a community coordinator to handle such situations", "susan schulman pollet social worker with a specialty in working with older people and their families was on the panel to ask followup questions of the speakers and provide a wrapup of key points made at the end", "the result of her questioning was that all of the agencies represented at the forum were united in their view that more social service is needed and that having an additional social worker would be a boon for the town", "the audience expressed a wide range of concerns such as unwieldy trash bins taxes which are out of reach for seniors unsafe sidewalks limited transportation options and a shortage of affordable housing", "members of the audience came up to speak in favor of having an additional social worker and that there is such a need", "former state rep anne paulsen stated that funding such a position is warranted especially since handling so much of these cases is an inappropriate use of fire and police departments over to you bob", "thank you max", "belmont savings to become people's united by joanna tzouvelis", "the sign is for belmont savings bank's six locations in belmont leonard street and trapelo road cambridge watertown waltham and newton will be replaced with people's united bank signs over the weekend of march thirty and 31st in preparation for the day the sale officially closes on april the 1st", "connecticut based people's united bank announced on november 27th it is buying belmont savings bank for three hundred and twenty seven million according to the boston business journal", "the deal will give people's united our nasdaq symbol pbct a network of branches just west of boston filling a gap and it's a local footprint", "the bank currently has just under fifty branches in massachusetts including a significant number on the north shore and in the western part of the state", "according to the business journal the deal is expected to close the second quarter of two thousand and nineteen making it the eighth largest bank in the state by deposits", "belmont savings nasdaq symbol blmt has three billion in assets to people's united total of forty four billion", "the belmont center business association honored mahoney at his final meeting with him as the bank president on march 19th", "deran muckjian owner of the toy shop in belmont ran through a long list of all the contributions mcmahoney and he helped make possible in his role as the bank president and through the belmont savings bank foundation", "the list included many of the annual events the bank sponsors which help bring business to belmont center such as town day and turn on the town the becca pizza run pace and park music festival cushing square fall festival belmont porchfest and much more", "it's such an important part of the town said muckjian", "we have a bank that has such input into the overall town's success is a tribute to you mahoney said that the mission statement written when his journey started with the belmont savings bank in two thousand and ten was to be the most admired bank in the region", "if you do it by being a great place to work and by being a great place to bank and being a great neighbor they all go together he said", "belmont savings bank foundation will remain independent after april the 1st", "the foundation has donated between three hundred and four hundred thousand annually to local causes in belmont and surrounding communities served by belmont savings bank", "since the announcement of the acquisition the bank stock has tripled according to mahoney", "patrick sullivan peoples united president of massachusetts and executive vice president of commercial banking said that they will be involved in the community as much as belmont savings has been and will continue to sponsor town day", "sullivan has been with peoples united for six years and has forty years of banking experience", "belmont savings bank will bring the number of people's united branches in massachusetts to fifty eight", "it has four hundred branches in new england and one hundred and forty located in stopinshops", "mahoney will stay on board to assist with the transition until december the 31st", "and now onto my colleague claire", "thank you bob", "incinerator site will be used for solar", "selectmen also on a retired animal control officer and talk about search for new police chief by joanna tzouvelis", "after nine months of public discussions which began with a list of seventeen potential postclosure uses for the former incinerator site on concord ave the selectmen on march 18th voted unanimously in favor of a solar farm in battery storage", "the final three options being considered were open space a bike and skate park or solar", "the anaerobic digester and hockey rink were eliminated as options at the february 25th selectmen meeting because a letter from the division of capital asset management and maintenance dcamm said if the town were to pursue any commercial development of the property it would first be necessary to obtain amended or new legislation that would allow this to occur", "selectmen chairman adam dash said they don't have time to change the legislation because the designing of the cap needs to start in may", "also dash said the appraised value of the land would change if it was developed by a third party to generate revenue", "dash said although belmont is land poor he did not think using the site as open space would be a good option because it will still be used by public works for storage and wouldn't be the most bucolic place to spend an afternoon", "dash said the bike and skate park is a great idea but the town can barely take care of the parks it has and could not afford to maintain it", "dash said he thinks solar and battery storage is the best option because it would have the lowest impact on the neighborhood and help the town meet its climate action goals", "he said it would be owned and managed by belmont light", "selectmen vice chairman mark paolillo agreed with dash", "it's a passive use that will create an enormous benefit to the community he said", "belmont light general manager chris roy said solar especially when paired with battery storage that is located within belmont's borders is a great way to boost belmont's renewable energy portfolio while also combating against the rising costs associated with importing energy from the regional transmission grid this helps the entire community make progress toward our climate action plan goals and minimize the risk for potential rate increases said roy", "now here's max", "thanks claire", "book series takes flight thanks to local parakeet by joanna tzouvelis", "on school street near the burbank school lives a famous parakeet filomena", "she is the main character in a series of children's books written by belmont president and harvard graduate school of education professor fernando reimers the adventures of filomena", "originally from venezuela reimers has lived in belmont since one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven with his wife eleonora", "they raised their two sons tomas and pablo in belmont", "filomena the family pet was purchased from belmont pet shop twelve years ago", "reimers who specializes in education policy became inspired to write the first book in his series one day when he was sitting at home in his kitchen grading papers and filomena was staring at him from her cage", "i remember wondering what she saw and what sense she made of it and i wrote a few paragraphs describing how the bird might see her cage and my kitchen said reimers", "he asked some of his former students who have young children if they would be interested in reading the story about a parakeet to their children", "i drew a great joy from reading their feedback and imagining my former students reading to their children the way i had read to my sons when they were that age", "armed with this feedback and inspiration i finished the story said reimers", "the burbank elementary school where reimer's sons went is depicted on the cover of the first book in the series the story of filomena illustrated by russian artist tania yastrebova", "according to reimers each of the books is focused on values or dispositions which foster inclusion", "the first book focuses on empathy on the importance of developing the discipline to see the world through another's eyes as a foundation for understanding", "the second book focuses on friendship and on the golden rule", "the third book examines compassion", "the fourth book focuses on inclusion", "the values are illustrated through the stories of filomena's adventures said reimers", "one of his graduates runs a literacy program for hospitalized children in mexico", "she included the book in the program and invited him to read to the children", "when he was leaving the hospital one of the girls asked him to write more stories because she had enjoyed the book", "he said he had never imagined that this simple book could bring joy to children spending extended periods in hospitals then some of my students and associates who are heads of schools around the world adopted the book for a project in which high school students read the book to younger children and then exchange essays on what they learned from the conversation with the little ones reimer said", "i am really enjoying knowing that high schoolers in the us in india in dubai in colombia and mexico are communicating reflections about discussing values with little ones", "over to you bob", "thanks max", "local stars aim to preserve homer house through dance by joanna tzouvelis and wendy murphy", "ten local celebrities are participating in dancing with the belmont stars to benefit the belmont women's club the organization responsible for maintaining and restoring the one thousand eight hundred and fifty three william flag homer house known as belmont's crown jewel the historic home which sits on a hill at six hundred and sixty one pleasant street", "becca peaser is one of the stars who has been taking lessons donated by fred astaire dance studios to prepare for the event which takes place friday april the 5th at six hundred pm at the beech street center at two hundred and sixty six beech street", "other celebrities participating include state senator william brownsberger middlesex district attorney marian ryan twotime world champion challenge twotime world marathon challenge champion becca pizzi town clerk ellen o'brien cushman and selectman vice chairman mark a paolillo and council on aging director nava nivvogel", "similar to the television show dancing with the stars participating dancers will be competing to win", "judges include jimmy tingle founder of humor for humanity sylvia whitney acclaimed uso performer and frankie selly the former owner of frankie's fish in belmont center former radio personality and singer candy o'terry will be the master of ceremonies", "and now on to claire", "thank you bob", "belmont youth commission to hope peeps diorama contest", "the belmont youth commission will hold it's 6th annual peeps diorama contest", "participants can create their own peeps dioramas out of marshmallows", "dioramas should be no bigger than a shoe or a boot box", "participants can bring their finished diorama's to the peeps diorama party from two hundred and forty five to three hundred and forty five pm april eleven in the small multipurpose room of the beech streets center at two hundred and sixty six beech street belmont", "voting will start at three hundred pm and the competition is open to all ages and prizes will be awarded to first and second place winners in the child teen and adults categories", "refreshments will also be served", "this event is sponsored by the belmont youth commission belmont youth and family services program and the belmont council on aging", "for information contact marisa melanson youth coordinator at nine million nine hundred and thirty two thousand seven hundred and twenty", "now over to max", "thanks claire", "belmont world film to present the heiresses", "belmont world film will present the heiresses directed by marcelo martinessi at seven hundred and thirty pm on april 1st at the studio cinema three hundred and seventy six trapelo road belmont", "the film was paraguay's two thousand and nineteen submission for the best foreign language film oscar jimena cascante matamoros a queer rights activist and spoken word poetry performer originally from costa rica will lead the discussion following the film", "the film compellingly explores a number of subjects that are given little exposure in mainstream cinema including the complexity of sexuality and social status said belmont world film executive director ellen gitelman", "although it takes place in paraguay the basic issues are universal", "belmont world film's 18th annual international film series making peace will run for five monday nights through april 29th at the studio cinema in belmont with film's beginning at seven hundred and thirty pm", "back to you bob", "along with my colleagues claire and max we thank you for listening to the talking news and hope you've enjoyed the show", "we will return next week for another edition of local news happenings around belmont"], "name": ["snafuinfinitytalking-news_040219/snafuinfinitytalking-news_040219/talking-news_040219_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_040219/snafuinfinitytalking-news_040219/talking-news_040219_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_040219/snafuinfinitytalking-news_040219/talking-news_040219_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_040219/snafuinfinitytalking-news_040219/talking-news_040219_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_040219/snafuinfinitytalking-news_040219/talking-news_040219_DOT_flac_00004.flac", 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6850, 5840, 17490, 1653, 2600, 3030, 4170, 19433, 18973, 4030, 3990, 7840, 2829, 7554, 10323, 4552, 8588, 6090, 1457, 1486, 7213, 12290, 6765, 14195, 14970, 8840, 2005, 6755, 9070, 9040, 2640, 1440, 6570, 11820, 6859, 11680, 3903, 8697, 4000, 12800, 12430, 13330, 15230, 4520, 5670, 5000, 7830, 8630, 17440, 1340, 1290, 3230, 16310, 6203, 6220, 7000, 9870, 10980, 4890, 11413, 5429, 4111, 923, 7579, 6093], "label": ["watch and listen to the talking news every day at twelve noon and six hundred am on channel ninety six comcast xfinity and channel thirty verizon fios", "it can also be heard mondays and tuesdays at four hundred and thirty pm", "and wednesdays at one thousand two hundred and thirty pm", "on channel nine xfinity and channel twenty nine fios", "listen any time on the bmc podcast network on soundcloud and itunes", "just search for the belmont media podcast network", "now on to the talking news", "opioid use on the north shore by j petticos", "the state has never seen an epidemic quite like the opioid deaths and epidemic that hits everyone", "the rich poor middleclass jobless and well employed but there's hope", "recent statistics across the state show a ten drop in opiod deaths", "the second consecutive drop though the deathly opioid fentanyl use continues to rise according to dph fentanyl is a synthetic opiod that affects similar to heroin that works quick and results that leave you just as quickly and are often prescribed for severe pain", "fentanyl is known to be fifty to one hundred times more potent than morphine according to a recent dea national drug assessment", "massachusetts saw the second highest number of seizures and arrests three thousand nine hundred and eleven in two thousand and sixteen for drugs second only to ohio almost double massachusetts at seven thousand nine hundred and seventy one", "and just ahead of pennsylvania's two thousand three hundred and fifty five", "massachusetts also has the fourth highest overdose death rate by any state in the nation behind ohio connecticut and west virginia", "state deaths both estimated and confirmed totaled one thousand four hundred and seventy through september down from one thousand six hundred and thirty seven through the same period in two thousand and sixteen", "according to massachusetts department of public health the confirmed opiod death numbers across the state though slightly waning were still staggering with seven hundred and ten males two hundred and twenty two females falling victim sixty seven in the fifteen to twenty four year old category two hundred and eighty one in the twenty five to thirty four year old category twenty six in the thirty five to forty four range and two hundred and thirteen in the forty five to fifty four range", "but even in older citizens with one hundred and seventeen dying between the ages of fifty five to sixty four and twenty eight dying that were over the age of sixty five", "in the race category seven hundred and fifty three were white one hundred and four hispanic forty nine black and eight asian", "in the north shore's biggest cities the towns opioid deaths still are mostly trending up with no town data yet available for two thousand and seventeen", "in beverley there were seven deaths in two thousand and twelve spiking up to thirteen in two thousand and fifteen and eighteen in two thousand and sixteen", "in the fishing town of gloucester two deaths in two thousand and twelve gave way to six each through two thousand and thirteen and fourteen peaking at eleven in two thousand and fifteen before dropping to nine in two thousand and sixteen", "in historic salem the number continued to escalate from five and two thousand and twelve to seven in two thousand and thirteen and thirteen each in two thousand and fourteen two thousand and fifteen before rising to nineteen in two thousand and sixteen", "in nearby peabody the numbers are dropping slightly from a low of three in two thousand and twelve to twelve in two thousand and thirteen and fourteen in two thousand and fourteen before having eleven deaths in both two thousand and fifteen and two thousand and sixteen", "finally in amesbury a single death in two thousand and twelve has led to six in two thousand and fifteen and eight in two thousand and sixteen", "small towns and big cities the numbers vary greatly", "sara grinnell executive director of the healthy peabody collaborative part of the peabody police department said that it when it comes to the city of peabody a number of partnerships have formed to combat the opiod epidemic while also working to create a city everyone can be proud of", "the healthy peabody collaborative formed in march of two thousand and eight under a mayor michael j bonfanti and a collaboration between the mayor's office health department and police department as a focus of addressing substance abuse issues in the city of peabody working to reduce underage substance abuse while creating a healthier community", "and over the claire", "thank you bob", "part two grinnell noted that a three city grant with lynn in salem has gone a long way in providing resources for all three cities to work toward curbing the opioid crisis through education and prevention of use", "we've been to do a lot through the grant with all first responders now we equipped with narcan said grinnell", "and firefighters who are able to go out with outreach workers to people who have overdosed to help provide treatment resources to them and their families", "followup is key to many officials who will often worry about the people that are lost in between the cracks which may have overdosed and then revived only to relive a vicious cycle of drugs if people with resources don't step in to intervene", "grinnell said it's an all in atmosphere for all city departments as they work to change the trend of increasing opioid deaths", "although peabody saw a slight decrease in opioid deaths over the past few years after a high of fourteen in two thousand and fourteen work on the crisis continues for all departments", "grinnell said narcan thanks to the grant was also provided to a number of social service agencies as well", "strategic planning sessions are working on education in providing the resources needed for prevention said grinnell", "it's been an extremely difficult to get ahead of this but we are doing as much as we can", "when asked about the decrease of opioid deaths in the town and overall the state grinnell pointed to the increase in narcan availability and work to educate people to the dangers of opioid pose even after just one use", "our goal is to see less people using drugs in the first place while providing others with access to treatment and recovery options said grinnell", "our goal is for nobody to use drugs and that would be ideal but we're here to provide support for people suffering as well as their families", "while the focus can sometimes be solely on the person taking the drugs grinnell said there's a number of organizations that help provide support and education to the family members left behind to cope with a loved one they can't control or even reason with at times", "one such organization is learn to cope with a chapter in salem a nonprofit support network that offers education resources peer support and hope for parents and family members coping with a loved one addicted to opiates or other drugs founded by joann peterson in two thousand and four a woman whose siblings and son suffered from addiction according to its website is an organization that has grown to include over ten thousand members and has become a nationally recognized model for peer support and prevention designed to offer families and the support education resources and hope that the founder's family would have benefited from", "and now here's max", "thank you claire", "retirement spending by joanna katurah", "as you reach different phases of retirement you'll have important decisions to make reevaluate your withdrawals", "before retirement you made a budget to decide which retirement savings options were best for you", "now that you've retired and have transitioned to spending you should reevaluate a safe withdrawal rate from your retirement accounts", "a safe withdrawal rate is the percentage of money you can withdraw each year to ensure your money will last for the rest of your life", "financial planners commonly recommend four as a safe withdrawal rate if you need your nest egg to last more than thirty years", "downsizing your house moving somewhere with a lower cost of living can help you save on property taxes maintenance costs and mortgage payments", "profits from selling your home can be invested and become a late game savings option", "retirees who want greater flexibility may choose to start renting reasons not to downsize", "staying in your home can make sense if you paid off your mortgage and expect to pay little on taxes or repairs plan to use a reverse mortgage to fund your retirement or want to pass the home onto your children", "move to a retirement community", "with great activities and amenities retirement community might be a perfect environment for you to stay active and meet new friends", "retirees who want to age in place at home may find that safety modifications and inhome care can be cost prohibitive", "it's easier to move while you're still in good health and less of a burden to your children", "get your estate in order", "a will should always be part of your retirement plan but there are additional documents to consider", "power of attorney designates a person you trust to make financial and health decisions on your behalf if you are incapacitated", "living will spells out exact wishes for medical treatment in the event of certain scenarios", "trust gives you greater control to specify who will inherit your assets and ensures a quicker transition", "there are many types of trusts", "a dynasty trust would allow you to transfer wealth to children and grandchildren while minimizing transfer taxes", "change your medicare", "as your healthcare needs increased you'll want to consider switching from your original medicare plan to a medicare advantage plan", "medicare advantage plans have a cap on your outofpocket expenses of six thousand seven hundred or lower", "once you reach that limit you'll pay nothing for the rest of the year", "original medicare plans have no limit", "so costs can easily rise to tens of thousands of dollars", "arrange longterm care", "as you reach your 80's and 90's you might need the level of care provided in an assisted living or longterm care facility", "ensure that your needs are best met by researching and visiting facilities before you need care", "if you move to an independent living community while still in good health you may be able to transition to an associated assisted living facility", "over to you bob", "thank you max", "after id theft member praises experience service", "a aaa northeast member in rhode island recently received some unwelcome news", "someone was using her name to file online loan applications with several banks in the midwest", "after asking herself how such a thing could happen she faced the question identity theft victims know all too well", "what do i do now experian was there with the answer", "as a aaa member she had the advantage of free identity theft protection plan from experience simply by signing up", "experian landed her alluded her to the phony applications by email and within an hour a fraud resolution specialist was on the phone talking her through the next steps like contacting the police and credit bureaus", "i was a nervous wreck she said but experian put me at ease all aaa members need to know about this service", "it's called protectmyid essential", "members who sign up get identity protection services from experian including daily or credit report monitoring suspicious activity alerts resolution support and more", "programs like protectmyid and preventive measures like shredding old bills are good practices to keep personal information secure", "as one financial crimes investigator stated i recommend having all the protection you can said detective paul beckett of the cranston rhode island police department", "he didn't handle this member's case but he's dealt with many like it and they're becoming more frequent", "the number of identity fraud victims reaching all time high in two thousand and seventeen", "according to the two thousand and eighteen identity fraud study by javelin strategy in research thieves stole one hundred and sixty eight billion from one hundred and sixty seven million victims", "beckett said that paying bills online has dramatically increased opportunities for hackers to swipe debit or credit card numbers", "also a large scale data breaches have compromised millions of social security numbers and other personal information", "credit card skimmers at atm's and stolen purses and wallets remain real threats and over to claire", "thank you bob", "school committee candidates by there are three candidates running for the two threeyear belmont school committee seats", "newcomers tara donner and jill norton and incumbent susan burgess cox", "susan burgess cox is thirty years in belmont occupation attorney hearing officer for the masshealth board of hearings", "her education bachelor's from hobart and william smith colleges jewish justice from the catholic university of america certificate in law and public policy from the catholic university of america", "town service school committee member since april two thousand and fifteen secretary of belmont school committee member of belmont capital budget committee member of belmont special education advisory council secretary of senior center building committee member belmont disability access commission", "her family husband michael children maggie and matthew seven", "other troop leader brownie troop secretary for winberg pta room parent for windbrook member of butler pta member of wellington pta", "here is tara donner", "she is seventeen years in belmont occupation english teacher winchester public schools", "her education is a bachelor's of wesley college master's of education lesley university", "town service town meeting members since two thousand and seven", "family wife abby two daughters at wellington elementary ages six and nine", "other volunteer for curriculum development in steering committee for english curriculum the acceptance and inclusion committee chairperson for several years and the emergency incident management team at mccall middle school in winchester sort of town meeting number in milton where she grew up", "elected student representative to the school committee and melton for two terms when she was in high school playing softball gardening backyard chicken and beekeeping", "children's religious education teacher at first church belmont", "here's jill norton sixteen years in belmont", "her occupation director of education policy for abt associates", "her education bachelor's in elementary education from michigan state montessori early childhood certificate from the montessori institute new england masses of education policy management from harvard graduate school of education", "her town service wellington elementary room parent pto third grade enrichment coordinated", "her family husband reed two children noah eight and ben three", "other vestry at the board of vestry in the board of directors member at trinity church in copley square boston", "volunteer and youth leader el hogar ministries tegucigalpa honduras", "avid walden pond swimmer and cargo biker", "and now over to max", "thanks claire", "senior living options evolve by susan kreimer", "senior living facilities have come a long way from the nursing homes of yesteryear from meatless meals to relaxing rocking chairs bountiful barbecues and bonfires", "there are many amenities and unique offerings to take into consideration in choosing a place to live for yourself or a loved one", "but first it's important to ponder what are my care needs and who can meet those needs said rachel reeves spokeswoman for the national center for assisted living an advocacy organization based in washington dc", "and if an illness develops or progresses can you still help care for me what does that look like as i need more assistance taking a tour of a facility is the best way to get a feel for its surroundings reeves said", "ask to visit during meal times and test the food", "talk with residents participate in some activities and evaluate if the employees are attentive and friendly", "if you do this before a crisis strikes you won't be compelled to make a decision quickly and under pressure", "even better go and stay there for a few days said john pinos professor of gerontology policy and planning and director of the national resource center on supportive housing and home modification at the university of southern california in los angeles try it out", "it's probably a good investment", "some senior living communities rent guest rooms", "if that's not an option look into nearby hotels", "think about the amount of interaction you want with other residents", "i would try to understand what my preferences are overall whether you want to live in a totally senior complex or environment where you what you value most privacy versus sociability pinos said and contemplate whether an urban or suburban or rural setting and sceneries suit you most", "prices vary but average about three thousand one hundred monthly per person in an independent living situation four thousand eight hundred in assisted living and six thousand four hundred in memory care according to stephen goland a gerontologist and professor in the geography department at the university of florida in gainesville", "well medicare and medicaid typically don't cover these expenses", "longterm care insurance may help subsidize the costs", "although meals are often included senior living facilities have evolved to give residents more control over their food choices and activities", "residents don't just eat in the dining room anymore", "some housing communities have set up kiosks or mini grocery stores where you can buy food and snacks to bring into your room goland says", "whether you're allowed to drink alcoholic beverages in the facilities public areas and in your private quarters or not at all maybe a factor to weigh before signing on the dotted line he said", "also whenever possible selecting a facility near a family member would be ideal", "not only is management likely to be more responsive to your needs it helps to call for emotional support and to request something you may need delivered", "it's always useful to have a gatekeeper a proponent and advocate on your side goland said", "back to you bob", "thank you max", "preplanning a funeral to spend down and medicaid by correspondent to jeffrey d wagner", "before a person runs out of money the unit individual comes in or the family comes in and we set up a prepaid irrevocable trust in that person's name", "it is allowed by medicaid and that way the funeral money is set aside and protected for the family", "there is a few things medicaid does not allow in the funeral bill including flowers and after meal after funeral meal expenses but pretty much everything else is covered he said", "that everything else includes vaults burial plots cremation and cremation urns embalming transportation of the body and other services offered by the funeral director and staff", "medicaid allows the family to set up another funeral account at a local bank for up to one thousand five hundred", "as an addition to the trust", "that money helps out with inflation in cemetery money or engraving the stones", "other directors also note that preplanning allows the future deceased family member to have their wishes carried out", "it also relieves some of the last minute stress and possible disagreements over what that individual would have wanted", "and now over my colleague claire", "thank you bob", "greek easter traditions come to life at agora by juliana k savarese", "hundreds of candles decorated with different themes for children celebrating greek easter april 8th are being made by the hands of marlboro resident dave metallidis", "metallidis owns whispers of spring and agora seven cushing ave belmont", "agora is the greek word for market which is what the business originally was when it started by metallidis wife deli as a greek grocery store in brighton", "since opening eight years ago the business has grown so much", "metallidis who is practicing lawyer has been working fulltime to create the products they sell for greek orthodox events", "greek easter is one of their busiest times of year", "artificial flowers stuffed animals princess figurines superhero toys ribbons and soccer balls or some of the ornaments metallidis uses to decorate the candles", "the candles are traditionally given by godparents to their godchildren to bring to church for the midnight service on april 7th called anastasi which means risen", "when greek orthodox churches reenact the resurrection of christ many children also bring them to church for the agape service meaning love on easter sunday", "the candles are lit and children supervised by their parents raise the candles up and down as they sing the traditional anastasi hymn christos anesti which means christ is risen", "every godparent wants to have something special for their godchild", "so we have to do a lot of custom work and we have to have a big selection he said", "the candles range in price for twenty to thirty he said", "avengers superheroes are very popular for the boys this year as our patriots theme decorations", "he uses flowers to decorate candles for older girls or simpler nautical and cross decorations for older boys", "when it's not the easter season agora sells everything else customers need for greek christenings and weddings such as christening gowns and suits favors witness pins wedding crowns wedding trays icons and lodger candles", "now here's max", "thank you claire", "international film festival to be held in belmont", "nine films from the world's top international film festivals will premiere at belmont world films 17th annual international film series which runs march 19th through may 14th at the studio cinema three hundred and seventy six trapelo road belmont", "most films will screen at seven hundred and thirty pm mondays with an exception of opening night on march 18th", "all films will be followed by discussions led by experts speakers and occasionally cultural performances", "the opening and closing night films are proceeded by dinner receptions featuring culturally relevant cuisine at the theater", "this year series bound by beliefs features films that show how difficult it is to implement change in the face of long held societal or community beliefs", "all but one film is either a north american east coast or new england premiere and several others are also their countries submission to the academy awards best foreign language film category", "as in the last several years a third of the films are directed by women", "we don't have to look much farther than the hollywood sexual harassment scandal to understand how long it takes or how hard it is to change the status quo said belmont world film executive director ellen gitelman", "the characters in each of the nine films are not always successful in standing up to their society's belief", "and even when they are it is often an uphill battle", "here's bob again", "along with my colleagues claire and max we thank you for listening to the talking news and we hope you've enjoyed the show", "we will return next week for another edition of local news happenings around belmont"], "name": 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"and now onto the talking news", "paolillo honored for his service by joanna k tzouvelis", "mark paolillo attended his final meeting as selectman on april 1st and was honored with three proclamations from state senator william brownsberger state representative david roger and the town of belmont recognizing his history of service and dedication", "paolillo served three terms as a selectman", "you've done so much for this town and collaborated with so many people and that's how things get done is by people collaborating you're a leader that does collaborate says brownsberger", "rogers said he is sad to see paolillo go", "mark's a really really smart guy and he's a really really nice guy and both of them really matter in public service that you bring out your intellect but you also provide fundamental decency as a human being said rogers", "chairman adam dash and selectman thomas caputo presented paolillo with a wooden rocking chair engraved with the belmont town seal his name and years of service", "because you like being the chair said dash", "the proclamation from the town cited paolillo's nine years as selectman as well as his twenty two years of service in many other capacities on the travel advisory committee the council on aging warrant committee committee preservation act study committee town meeting recreation commission minuteman study committee municipal light board financial task force capital budget committee community path advisory committee board of library trustees economic development advisory committee and school committee along with major capital projects working group high school traffic working group among others", "he served as chairman of the selectmen in two thousand and twelve two thousand and thirteen and two thousand and sixteen", "the proclamation states paolillo was an integral in the creation of the first financial task force belmont's first look at a municipal and a multiyear strategy regarding town finances and capital improvements and bringing the town and schools into one budget creating the one belmont one budget approach", "the proclamation also states he was instrumental in changing how municipal employees communicated with residents pushing for a stronger web and social media presence", "mark had set a high standard of commitment and dedication which the youth of our town may follow and serve as an inspiration for the citizens of the town of belmont states the proclamation from the town of belmont", "in response to the many accolades and applause from the audience which included paolillo's wife christine and his mother mary mark said it has been a privilege and honor to serve the residents of the community", "i've enjoyed every single day and every single year", "i'm really going to miss the work people thought i was retiring because of the work and long hours", "that had nothing to do with it he said", "he said he will miss the town employees", "we had a terrific team of department heads and town employees that do their best every single day", "we're not perfect we try to serve the community and the way they want services provided he said", "he also thanked the other boards he served with", "some were great some were okay he especially thanked his mentor ralph jones", "the smartest guy i ever served with said paolillo", "he also thanked his late father anthony who instilled in him the need to give back to the community by serving it", "paolillo is a certified public accountant and works as principal of abandoned and unclaimed property practice leader for ryan of boston", "and now over to my colleague claire", "thanks bob", "the election results are in", "epstein wins selectman seat page wins housing authority prestwich and checkoway win school committee seats by joanna k tzouvelis", "for many this year's town election was a nail biter with a contentious threeway race for the selectman seat as well as races for school committee and housing authority", "many predicted it would be a close race between selectmen candidates roy epstein and jessie bennett and the results proved just that with epstein winning over bennett by one hundred and twenty eight votes", "timothy flood came in third with one hundred and thirty six votes", "the most recent close race for selectman was in two thousand and twelve between andy rojas and the late dan sharfman", "sharfman lost by just thirty five votes", "this is the first threeway race for selectman since two thousand and ten when mark paolillo first ran against daniel leclerc and anne mahon", "paolillo won", "housing authority", "newcomer cassandra page won the fiveyear housing authority seat with three hundred and eighty four more votes than incumbent tommasina olson", "page was overwhelmed with joy as she learned the results of town hall read by assistant town clerk meg piccione", "she said she did not expect to win", "i didn't think anybody cared", "my opponent's been around forever and she's done so many amazing things for this town and i just didn't think i had a chance said page", "this is the first time in twenty eight years a tenant has been elected as a member of the housing authority board according to housing authority board member charles laverty iii", "i know she's passionate about a lot of issues so we look forward to working with her on those issues and all the changes at the housing authority he said", "laverty will become the acting chairman to fill the vacancy left by olson who was the chairman", "the first meeting is april 22nd at which time they will elect a new chairman", "he said he looked forward to working with page and welcomes her with open arms", "school committee", "in the race for the two threeyear school committee seats the winners are newcomer amy checkoway coming in first with three thousand one hundred and five votes and incumbent andrea prestwich with two thousand nine hundred and seventy five", "newcomer peter pantazopoulos received one thousand four hundred and seventeen votes", "checkoway said she cares about the transition to the grade seven through twelve school and getting into the community listening to different perspectives and bringing them to the table", "she is focused on trying to make sure our students are getting a comprehensive high quality education and that teachers and leadership are supported to make positive change in the schools", "her first school committee meeting will be april 9th", "board of selectmen", "epstein said he never ran a campaign before and thinks he knocked on two thousand doors", "the most important experience of that was meeting all the people who are incredibly diverse generally very welcoming very informative", "i learned a lot from all different points of view rich poor young old with different concerns he said", "he said he believes the experience made him a better candidate and it will make him a better selectman", "epstein said the biggest issues facing belmont in the next few years are financial between completing capital projects successfully and managing a request for an override", "managing that in a way that people can live with it is the most important challenge facing belmont and i believe i'm the best prepared to help do that he said", "epstein said belmont's chronic problem is expenses that exceed revenue", "getting prepared for the next override is something we have to start thinking about now", "i've given some thought to taking this as a moment where we could maybe simultaneously address the tax program for seniors and revisit the business model for town departments to see if money can be saved by restructuring services and rethinking some of the ways the town raises revenue before the results came in bennett told the citizen herald whether i win or not i plan to stay involved in the town", "i will do all of the volunteering i possibly can", "it's what makes this town great people getting in and getting the work done", "i'm not going away anytime soon no matter what said bennett", "former selectman mark paolillo was at town hall when the results came in", "i hope now that the race is over the town comes together he said", "he thinks it took a lot of courage for bennett to step into the ring without a lot of time spent in town politics", "she came incredibly close to winning", "i hope she will continue to serve as a town meeting member", "she has done wonderful work on the high school traffic working group and perhaps in the future she'll throw her hat in the ring again said paolillo", "he thinks it's important for the selectmen to unite the town", "there's so much more to do and the three members of the board need to move forward together unite the town and let's focus on the issues we need to address and enhance the quality of the life of the residents in our community said paolillo", "now over to max", "thank you claire", "aaa rating to save town money by joanna k tzouvelis", "town treasurer floyd carman announced march 7th that the town of belmont has been assigned a aaa rating by both moody's and sp", "this was the first time the town has been rated by two rating agencies according to carman", "the size of the financing triggered the dual rating analysis in that report", "on march 12th carman went out to market for a one hundred million bond to fund the belmont high school grade seven through twelve building project", "seventy four million to renovate the police and public works buildings seven hundred thousand for the town's ongoing water main replacement project", "there were seven bidders", "the winning bidder was jp morgan securities llc", "the true interest cost of the 30year bond is three thousand three hundred and ten", "the town will receive one hundred and eight million one hundred thousand in cash and finance one hundred and two million thirty thousand", "according to carman a savings of around six million", "effective january 1st two thousand and twenty residents will see the effects of this initial borrowing for the debt exclusion for the bhs project on their property tax bills", "the average single family belmont home valued at one million ninety thousand will see their real estate taxes increased by seven hundred and sixty annually", "focusing just on the belmont high school debt exclusion project the belmont taxpayer will save five million five hundred and seventy two thousand on this bond which he estimates is about forty on the average homeowner's property tax bill", "every dollar counts he said", "belmont is one of nine communities out of three hundred and fifty one that have both moody's and sp aaa ratings", "the other communities are acton boston brookline cambridge hingham wellesley weston and winchester", "in february and march of two thousand and twenty carman said he will go to market for another a hundred million dollar bond for the bhs project", "the vote passing the debt exclusion for the new grade seven through twelve high school building in november two thousand and eighteen authorized carman to borrow two thousand one hundred and twenty seven million", "the total project will cost two hundred and ninety five million", "the town expects to get eighty million reimbursed through the grant from the massachusetts school building authority", "before this debt exclusion the town was in debt about seventy five million according to carman with the one hundred million bond the debt will be one hundred and seventy five million", "the following year it will be two hundred and seventy five million", "although the aaa rating could give the town a premium which could save taxpayers up to six hundred thousand", "the aaa rating reflects the town's healthy financial operations and reserves a moderately sized tax base in close proximity to new england's largest employment center strong resident wealth and income profile and rising but manageable debt burden moody's said in its report", "the rating also incorporates the town's aggressive funding of its moderate pension liability", "according to the moody's credit analysis received by carman on february 28th factors that could lead to a downgrade of belmont's rating are a failure to maintain financially balanced operations as debt service increases deviations from planned funding of pension liability and the unwillingness of voters to approve future debt exclusions and overrides", "credit challenges are the rapid growth of school enrollment driving rising education and capital costs and future debt plans over the near term will substantially increase debt burden", "the sp rating report received by carman on march 6th describes belmont's economy as very strong", "the town's economic profile benefits from its location which has given way to extremely strong and stable wealth and income levels", "it is served by the massachusetts bay transit authority's commuter rail buses and trackless trolley lines in addition to several roads and exits along route two which connect it directly to the area's deep and robust economy he said", "the report also states belmont's debt and contingent liability profile as weak but that the costs are manageable given the town's very strong demographic profile", "in our opinion a credit weakness is belmont's exposure to rising costs related to pension and opeb obligations", "however we believe overall costs are affordable and the town has been active in managing the overall liability sp said in its report", "sp said the outlook for belmont is stable as long as belmont remains proactive in its management of its debt and liability profile as evidenced by its careful planning and prudent budget decisions", "while unlikely if financial performance were to deteriorate significantly leading to a draw on reserves or if longterm liabilities increased at a faster pace leading to budgetary pressures we could lower the rating sp said in its report", "in addition if the town's tax rate flexibility were to diminish as evidenced by its electorate no longer willing to support operating overrides and debt exclusions the rating would also be pressured particularly given the expected rise in debt and other costs over to you bob", "thank you max", "students make a statement by sri kaushik abby yu and chantelle dunne", "on march 14th hundreds of belmont high school students streamed into the cafeteria after school to participate in the 17th annual studentled event make a statement day", "amidst upbeat music and tasty homemade treats students packed themselves around the circular tables littered with sharpies to decorate free white tshirts purchased using donations for the belmont pto the youth activities and dare inc program of the belmont police department and belmont against racism", "each year students and staff are invited to decorate these tshirts with slogans images quotes or symbols expressing whatever it is that they are passionate about", "this year officer horan made a surprise visit to the event much to the delight of many who had him as a teacher and guide in their fifth grade dare classes", "the goal of the event is to promote diversity creativity acceptance and education among belmont high school students", "each participant then wears their decorated shirt to school the next day where they are encouraged to share their statement with their peers and teachers", "this year sophomore andrew cubstead and thomas boyle collaborated on their tshirt and made abstract tshirts that on their own seemed nonsensical but when put together resembled a unified tshirt", "when asked about it boyle responded that it was to show that he and cubstead were just two halves of a whole", "senior jess giorgio made a cute shirt in which her name was the basis of an asterix poem a snapshot of her personality", "others made tshirts focusing on empowering both women and members of the lgbtq plus community current gun and immigration laws and climate change", "make a statement day is entirely free to those participating", "in order to purchase the tshirts markers and other supplies necessary for the event to take place committee members sri kaushik abby yu and chantelle dunne prepared grant proposals and spent the preceding months planning their annual event", "and now over to claire", "thanks bob", "celebrate spring at bga's new exhibit by rebecca richards", "the belmont gallery of art invites visitors to celebrate the joy and beauty of spring with its new exhibit birds blossoms and botanicals at the homer building 3rd floor nineteen moore street", "opening april twelve the exhibit will delight visitors with the many images in vivid colors of the earth's awakening after the quietness of the winter months", "one can almost hear the birds singing and smell the flowers in an exhibit that delights the senses", "the response to the bga spring awakenings call for art has been unprecedented with over one hundred artists sending in close to three hundred submissions for consideration", "the end result is an exhibit filled with work by over seventy five artists featuring not only painting printmaking and photography but other types of art making as well including textiles jewelry design and assemblage with the common theme of debating the beauty and joy of spring", "visitors to birds blossoms and botanicals will feel truly enveloped in the earth beauty and renewal at this special time of year", "the bga will host an opening reception for birds blossoms and botanicals from six hundred to eight hundred and thirty pm on april 12th with many of the artists present", "wine and light refreshments will be served", "a gallery talk coffee and conversation with exhibit guest juror lauren meier will be held from one thousand am to noon april thirteen", "meier a landscape designer and editor of the papers of frederick law olmsted will give a talk on the legacy of frederick law olmsted", "these bga events are free and open to the public", "bga's art fun shops will be held april 27th and 28th", "an opportunity to play let your imagination run loose and create something unique and personal for you or for someone you love", "working with both found materials and supplies and guidance provided by the bga participants in each three hour long workshop will leave with an original piece of art", "rsvp's and nominal fee are required to cover supplies", "and now here's max", "thanks claire", "metco students showcase art at grove hall library by joanna k tzouvelis", "metco students in kindergarten through eighth grade are participating in the fifth annual metco art show through april 11th at the grove hall library in dorchester", "according to chenery visual arts teacher kathleen burns the show originated in response to making sure all students that come to belmont feel that they are part of the community and to celebrate their art not just in belmont but in the communities where they come from", "chenery art teacher katie kelly said the art in the show highlights the work done in the curriculum such as twopoint perspective onepoint perspective clay masks slab buildings screen prints portraits incorporating the where i'm from poem they work on in seventh grade english class", "chenery 7th grade metco student crystal bella rutter of mattapan is exhibiting her art in the show", "it depicts depression and how it affects the lives of people ages fifteen to twenty four", "it was created using a carving tool and linoleum with rolled ink", "it lets students show what they do in school", "not only in school but outside of school", "it lets them express themselves and show what they've been going through at home said rutter", "chenery 8th grade metco student cartier davis of dorchester is exhibiting his twopoint perspective of legos with dragons in the background in coordinating colors made with pencil", "he is also exhibiting a ceramic sculpt fish sculpture depicting a betta fish he used to have as a pet", "he likes that the exhibit is close to home", "chenery 8th grade metco student meima diacate of mattapan is exhibiting a screen print she created with a group in bright orange and red and a twopoint perspective about social issues including gay rights", "i made a box that's like a rainbow and a person choosing a path they want to go down and being conflicted she said", "she's excited to be part of the art show for the fourth year in a row", "i like that i can do anything i want in the art class", "i get to choose what i draw and what i make she said", "she hopes to continue studying different art forms of art in high school", "chenery 7th grade metco student aj sweet of east boston will exhibit a picture he created of his dog lucky and a portrait of himself which incorporates the where i'm from poem he wrote", "i think it's cool people get to see my artwork i work hard on he said", "chenery art student teacher sarah libertini said the metco art show is special for everyone who attends and is an opportunity to connect with the metco students on a different level", "over to you bob", "thanks max", "local nonprofits receive community grants", "harvard pilgrim healthcare foundation recently announced that two belmont nonprofit organizations were awarded a total of one thousand from the foundation's community spirit nine hundred and eleven minigrant program", "the belmont chinese american association received a five hundred grant and belmont high school received a five hundred grant", "to commemorate those harvard pilgrim members who lost their lives on september 11th two thousand and one harvard pilgrim and the foundation created the community spirit nine hundred and eleven minigrant program", "this program allows each harvard pilgrim employee to award a five hundred grant completely funded by the foundation to the local charity of his or her choice for each calendar year", "since this community grants program began in two thousand and two harvard pilgrim employees have directed more than sixty three million to thousands of organizations throughout connecticut maine massachusetts and new hampshire", "we are so fortunate to have generous and dedicated employees to enrich our company and the communities in which we all live and work said karen voci the president of the harvard pilgrim foundation", "the minigrant program is a wonderful way to support our employees", "they help others to make an impact in their own cities and towns in two thousand and eighteen ninety six of harvard pilgrim employees participated in at least one form of service or giving through volunteering the minigrant program or the harvard pilgrim's annual employee fundraising campaign", "and now over to my colleague claire", "thank you", "belmont world film to present jirga", "belmont world film will present the new england premiere of jirga sponsored by the australian consulate of new york at seven hundred and thirty pm april 8th at the studio cinema three hundred and seventy six trapelo road belmont", "the film was australia's two thousand and nineteen submission for the best foreign language film oscar", "director benjamin gilmore will speak after the film via skype from australia in a discussion moderated by zahra lotfi a middle eastern studies scholar originally from afghanistan", "besides epitomizing this year's theme of making peace jirga portrays the people of afghanistan in a different light from american cinema said belmont world film executive director ellen gitleman", "many of the people in the film are nonactors who have participated in these thoughtful jirgas themselves", "belmont world film's 18th annual international film series making peace will run through april twenty nine at the studio cinema in belmont with films beginning at seven hundred and thirty", "tickets to film screenings are eleven general admission and nine for students and seniors in advance at httpbelmontworldfilmorg and twelve and ten respectively on day of the show beginning at seven hundred pm with cash", "ebt and wic cardholders can purchase tickets at half price on the day of the show", "a passport includes eight admissions for seventy five and can be shared with one other person", "now over to max", "thanks claire", "panmass challenge seeking kids rides coordinator", "the panmass challenge charitable bikeathon held every august is seeking a coordinator for the belmont kids ride event", "the organization hosts more than thirty pmc kids rides throughout massachusetts and new england", "in two thousand and eighteen one of those rides took place in belmont in which more than three hundred local children participated to raise funds for patient care and cancer research at dana farber", "in two thousand and eighteen thirty three pmc kids rides attracted over four thousand three hundred cyclists and one thousand five hundred volunteers", "kids ages two to fifteen pedaled routes between one and ten miles in mini bikeathons providing them the opportunity to raise money for cancer care and research just like the adults who participate in the pmc", "together they raised more than nine hundred and fifty thousand as part of the pmc's monumental fifty six million gift to dana farber and in two thousand and nineteen pmc kids rides hopes to raise one million as part of the organization's fundraising goal of fifty eight million", "the panmass challenge has raised more than six hundred and fifty four million for cancer research and patient care at dana farber cancer institute since its inception in one thousand nine hundred and eighty", "for information visit kidspmcorg", "if interested in becoming a coordinator contact just justine darmanian at seven billion eight hundred and thirteen million four hundred and thirty four thousand and twelve or justinepmcorg", "back to you bob", "along with my colleagues claire and max we thank you for listening to the talking news and hope you have enjoyed the show", "we will return next week for another edition of local news happenings around belmont"], "name": 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any time on the bmc podcast network on soundcloud and itunes", "just search for the belmont media podcast network", "now on to the talking news", "new gm for belmont light appointed by joanna k zavalas", "the belmont light board unanimously voted in favor of appointing christopher roy conquered municipal light plants current assistant director as belmont lights new general manager subject to successful negotiation of a contract following his public interview on april 9th", "current acting general manager craig spinale was also a final candidate and publicly interviewed on april 9th", "at the end of july the belmont light board voted not to renew the contract of jim palmer who served as general manager since two thousand and ten spinale was appointed as the acting general manager by the belmont light board", "grew white the same search committee used to help hire town administrative patrice garvin was used to help with the belmont light general manager search", "ten applications for the position were received and five candidates were interviewed by the screening committee on april twenty on march 24th", "the committee then narrowed it down to three candidates to be interviewed by the light board but one dropped out", "light board chairman adam dash said both were great candidates but only one could get the job", "he said roy did a great job in the presentation section of the interview with the problem the light board asked the candidates to analyze and solve which was how to keep rates from going up while increasing the green energy portion of belmont's power supply", "he clearly has a passion for public power and the experience in working on substations solar institutions installations excuse me and and green energy policies", "it was a close call but the vote was unanimous", "mr spinale has done a great job as acting gm and really want to we really want him to stay", "having both of them would give belmont light a dream team said dash in an email to the citizen herald on april 10th", "roy has been the assistant director of the concord municipal light plant since two thousand and thirteen", "prior to that he was the interim communications coordinator for concord municipal light plant from two thousand and eleven to two thousand and thirteen engineering and operations manager from two thousand and ten to two thousand and thirteen and electrical engineer from twenty from two thousand and nine to two thousand and ten before joining concord municipal light plant", "roy worked for enstar electric and gas as a substation operations supervisor from two thousand and five to two thousand and nine", "roy has a bachelor of science degree in electrical engineering from tufts university and a masters in power systems management from porster from worcester polytech institute", "in roy's cover letter to grew white he stated on a regular basis i balance pressures from the community other town departments and system events to provide guidance to our staff so they can focus on the right tasks with minimal obstacles he outlines examples of his experience to show how the key functions of the position closely match his experience such as his work developing all aspects of strategic and financial planning for concorde municipal light plant and a power procurement strategy outline to help concord achieve its goals for the global warming solutions act it adopted in two thousand and eight", "belmont would be a great fit for me because concord and belmont are essentially sister communities", "sustainability initiatives our infrastructure and our light plant organizations are all very similar", "i have had a lot of success aligning the concorde light plants activities with the community's goals and welcome the opportunity to do the same in belmont said roy in an email to the citizen herald", "and now on to claire", "thank you bob", "pharma selectman bill skelley has passed away", "by joanna k zavalas", "on election day many belmont residents were sad to learn the news of a dear friend and dedicated town volunteer who touched many lives passing away", "william skelley who served as a selectman for two terms from one thousand nine hundred and ninety four to two thousand and was very active on the veterans memorial committee and in belmont's church of jesus christ of latter day saints", "passed away on april 3rd", "skelley lived in belmont for more than fifty years", "he also served on the warrant committee was a town precinct five town meeting member and key player in fundraising for the beach street center project", "he also coached youth sports in belmont for twenty years", "skelley leaves behind his sons william and christopher dodd and mary elizabeth fiango seven grandchildren and his sisters barbara skelley of belmont and kathleen melons of waltham", "the selectmen held a moment of silence in his honor at their meeting", "the morning of april four with newly elected member tom caputo and honored him with a proclamation at their april nine meeting", "lives he touched", "skelley's younger sister mary elizabeth was born with severe disabilities and passed away at age seven when he was thirteen", "in an interview with the citizen herald two years ago skelley credited his sister for inspiring him to help others", "she taught me the true meaning of life true happiness in our life comes from helping those in need", "bullies do not understand this but we must help them understand this true meaning of happiness in our lives skelley said", "timmy polson is a nine year old boy from belmont who skelley spent a few hours each week visiting", "he was born with a micro deletion of his fourth chromosome which causes him to be severely disabled", "timmy's mom mother catherine said there seems to be an immediate bond from the moment skelley and timmy first met four years ago at church when skelley introduced himself skelley was honored at a memorial service at the church of jesus christ of latter day saints in belmont on april nine", "catherine spoke about his relationship with her son at the memorial", "she said it takes a lot of time and energy to get timothy to come to to truly recognize somebody", "bill invested this time and energy", "as their friendship blossomed timothy would light up when he heard his best friend bill come into the room", "his head would turn and his expression changed as he often would reach for bill's face", "sometimes tim would smile and chuckle", "sometimes he'd click his tongue in excitement she said", "skelley began an initiative called the community friends project designed to encourage teenagers to donate some of their time with people living with severe disabilities", "both the board of selectmen and the school committee supported the concept", "a let's get it done guy", "annmarie mahoney capital budget committee chapman succeeded skelley on the board of selectmen", "he and i had worked together when he was on the bos and i was on the school committee he convinced peter holland the superintendent to undertake a collaborative form of bargaining with the teacher's union", "and he participated with us she wrote in an email", "bill was a true belmontian he grew up in town and was a high school sports star went to harvard and became a successful businessman", "he married his high school sweetheart and raised his own children here", "he always remained actively involved in the town the school sports and local politics", "bill was a positive upbeat let's get it done kind of guy", "he was a joy to work with and a calming influence in many stressful moments in town government", "one of his key interests as a selectman was to have a senior center in town", "his parents were active seniors and he believed they deserved a dedicated space", "his early work led to the eventual eventual construction of the present senior center continued mahoney", "now over to max", "thank you claire", "paradise flowers moves to cushing square", "by joanna k zavalas", "paradise flowers located at four hundred and fifteen concord avenue belmont center since one thousand nine hundred and eighty seven has moved to four hundred and fifty four common street in cushing square", "owner christine havarti who has lived in belmont her whole life said moving was a difficult decision but she wanted to make a fresh start in a new space which is actually closer to her home", "she also believes parking in her new location will be better for customers", "sharing parking with the post office was tricky especially around the holidays she said", "havarti took over paradise flowers in one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine", "i had worked there for four years before i realized that i had a head for the business end of the industry too", "i knew i wanted the freedom to create the designs i loved to be able to meet the customers and build relationships with them and be able to support myself doing it she said", "soon after taking over the shop the franchise kabloom opened nearby in belmont center which was come competition for havarti", "it was a little scary at first being up against such a large successful company", "but i also knew they would have challenges", "i know from experience the hours that you have to put in to make a successful flower shop it's certainly not a nine to five for me she said", "the secret to her success has been choosing the freshest flowers finding employees who are willing to work long hours at the holidays and are as passionate about flowers and people as she is", "my hope is that i'll be at this location for another thirty years", "i want to be coming in seeing my customers and helping them spread happiness through flowers until i'm very old", "and that's a long time off said havarti", "the belmont citizen herald recently had the opportunity to meet with havarti and talk about our business", "how did you get into the floral business it took me a little while to find my passion", "i knew i had an artistic eye for proportion and design but i didn't know exactly how i would use it", "i had tried my hand at cake decorating which i really liked", "and i worked in an office setting for a while but found it didn't suit my creative side", "my grandmother tillie was a painter and she painted these gorgeous awardwinning paintings of flowers when i was growing up", "whenever i saw them i was moved the color and vibrancy of flowers the way it brightens someone's day and lifts them up even if just for a moment", "that's what really drew me to working at paradise flowers originally what appeals to you about the new cushing square location the new location gives me the chance to be a part of this new cushing square", "that's really just bursting with possibility", "there is so many improvements happening and new development coming in", "it's really exciting to be a part of that", "i look forward to fostering relationships with the local businesses in the area and i'm hoping to continue my relationships with my current customers while meeting lots of new ones", "it's such a great area with a lot of character and now it's buzzing with new life how will your new store be different from prior location the new store is bigger brighter and more up to date technologically", "my focus is on giving it the same welcoming feeling i had over at concord ave and i really think it's coming together beautifully", "we also now have online ordering", "so if that's how you like to order you can still do that and still know that it's coming from a designer you know and can trust to get the message just right what do you love about what you do the best part of the job is definitely working with the clients to help them create custom designs", "each person has their own aesthetic and i work with them to design arrangements that fit their style and personality", "this is especially true about weddings and special events that i provide the flowers for", "i love doing weddings and events", "making sure the bride or honoree has the freshest best selection of flowers in the most creative designs", "but i also truly believe that receiving flowers is still a special and exciting occasion if you use a designer who cares about what they're making", "that's always my goal", "i want the receiver to feel the message that the giver is trying to get across over to you bob", "thank you max", "three things to know about the selectmen meeting", "by angela toma", "the belmont board of selectmen met on april 9th", "it was the first full meeting for the newest member tom caputo", "here are three takeaways from this meeting", "number one regional dockless bicycle share program", "at the end of last year the metropolitan area planning council ampc announced a project aimed at bringing a new bike sharing network to the metro boston area", "the multitone bike sharing project would connect sixteen boston area communities including towns such as lexington newton waltham and watertown", "the system will use dockless technology", "as the name suggests dockless bikes do not require a docking station and can be parked within a defined area along the sidewalk or at a bike rack", "members of the board of selectmen said they believe it is a great way to reduce the cars on the street as well as a great way to make biking easier and more accessible to the community", "there is no cost to the municipality for participating in this program", "the selectman passed a motion to sign the memorandum of understanding to facilitate collaboration with the management of the regional metropolis bike sharing system", "issue number two fiscal year two thousand and nineteen supplemental requests", "the selectman did not vote on any fiscal year two thousand and nineteen supplemental requests", "state aid is not finalized and the selectman cannot hold a vote before then", "they are they are prioritizing funding for existing veterans services", "officer hours tree trimming a council on aging social worker a school resource officer for the chenery middle school and rodent control", "discussions are ongoing issue number three housing trust agreement", "the warrant committee discussed and voted on proposed community preservation act", "the cpa project at the april 4th meeting", "one of the projects is a housing trust agreement that would establish a housing trust fund to support affordable housing options in belmont", "the committee voted unanimously in favor of housing of the housing trust fund", "however some warrant committee members have accountability concerns with how the trust will use and allocate their funds", "before the project is taken to town meeting for a vote the committee men have suggested drafting a contract that lays out how how the trust will be using their funding", "and now over the claire", "thank you bob", "a topping off ceremony held for a new quote barn", "belmont day school held ceremony to celebrate construction of the new building", "by joanna k zavalas", "there was a lot of exhilaration in the year as students at belmont day school gathered together the morning of april nine for a topping off ceremony to celebrate the construction of the new building which is being referred to as a barn", "this moment is a long long time in the making", "there are some people who have been thinking about this barn and believing in it for as many as six or seven years said headmaster brendan luggay", "according to belmont day director of communications corinne mcquilton", "the new building is referred to as the barn as a nod to the school's history", "belmont day was founded in one thousand nine hundred and twenty seven when belmont was still a town of farms", "belmont day school initially began operating at all saints parish house on clark street until one thousand nine hundred and thirty two when it outgrew the church facilities", "a parent came upon a little stone house in the big field that offered expansion possibilities in a country atmosphere", "in one thousand nine hundred and thirty three the school's executive committee purchased the stone cottage which is currently part of the belmont day school library said mcquilton the barn estimated to cost one hundred and fifteen million to build is expected to be complete in late november", "the building will add arts athletics and academic spaces to the campus and includes a wood shop an innovation lab two art studios general purpose space offices locker rooms and reception areas", "and the field house is sized for two sidebyside dual use basketball and volleyball courts", "the barn will enhance the experience of our current community of two hundred and seventy four students our plan for middleschool enrollment growth calls for a gradual increase over four years adding thirty to forty in total new students to the community said mcquilton", "now over to max", "thank you claire", "dance show elicits many emotions by mayumi muira motoyama", "i saw avalon dance and fitness studios spring showcase anything goes on the dance floor at a dancer friends invitation on march 16th", "i knew little to nothing about ballroom dancing but my first dance show experience was far beyond my expectations", "each piece of the program featuring both professional and amateur dancers in various combinations were beautifully crafted", "and i was immediately captivated by the charm of ballroom dancing and the passion of the performers", "to learn that such high level performances were being given at a local town studio was a pleasant surprise", "the studio is located at three hundred and forty five tropellow road belmont", "the building may have a modest exterior but take one step inside and you were greeted by a large staircase and pass the black door at the top you will find a spacious ballroom", "the show began with a brilliant group dance to the cole porter classic anything goes", "watching such explosive joy emitted by the ten dancers with bright smiles and dazzling costumes made my heart skip a beat", "next on the program was a graceful waltz", "the moment the pair who had been swinging slowly began sliding across the floor along with these surging music was breathtaking", "the program of twenty six numbers was comprised of a variety of styles from chacha's tangos and quick steps with comedic choreography to waltzes which displayed the simple beauty of the style using the entire floor", "the contrast between each piece kept the audience's attention", "the characteristics of the styles could be understood very distinctly even by those without any dance experience such as myself", "every number's choreography was finely crafted to fit the specific dancers skills and personalities the audience applauded and called out not only at the end of a dance but whenever an impressive technique was pulled off which encouraged the dancers even more", "i am sure that the more one knows about dance vocabulary the more one can participate in the show", "the music had a lot of variety from standard numbers to some ethnic tunes", "as the program went on it became clear to me that dance is the art of how one perceives music and how one can express this with a given style", "the master of ceremonies that night was professional brad morrison", "he warmly introduced the dancers with their recent achievements and cleverly connected the numbers with his cheerful speech while talking to the guests", "as mc he was also an essential part of the program", "ballroom dance is generally done in pairs pros proam or amateurs", "of course the pair of professional dancers jess and kumar were particularly exquisite", "it was amazing that even on the uptempo pieces viewer could viewers could still see each pose clearly and they were constantly sensing each other's presence without the need to look", "over to you bob", "thank you max", "caputo sworn in as newest selectman by joanna k zavalas", "with his wife sarah and twin daughters jane and alison by his side tom caputo was sworn in as belmont's newest selectman on the morning of april 4th and immediately attended his first official meeting of the board", "caputo ran uncontested for the three years seat", "however thomas siena olson decided to give residents another alternative at the last minute by running as a writein candidate just days before the election", "caputo won the election with two thousand one hundred and six votes", "he said running uncontested gave him gave him two opportunity gave him an opportunity to have more of a listening campaign and hear residents concerns about the town budget and capital projects", "he said he would like to make revenue a priority", "at the april 4th meeting the selectman voted to reorganize the board with adam dash becoming the chairman and mark payolilio becoming the vice chairman", "there will be a new policy outlining the rotation for selectmen to depoliticize the chairman and vice chairmanship", "after a brief discussion the selectman decided was best for a member not to be chairman for their third year due to the time it takes to run for reelection", "payolilio said he didn't completely agree with the new policy but second the nomination for dash to become the chairman", "dash said there would be three simple rules no drama be respectful and don't waste anyone's time", "and over to claire", "thank you bob", "a sugar induced stampede by steve anir", "katie samuels has fond memories of eating neko wafers", "the chocky multicolored candies made by the new england confectionary company as a kid samuel's and her siblings would play church at their grandmother's house placing the circular treats into their mouths as if they were taking communion she said", "so when the twenty three year old florida resident learned recently that the revere based sweets manufacturer was at risk of closing down laying off hundreds of its employees due to financial insecurities", "she reached out to candy wholesaler candystorecom to try and scoop up as many packages of the iconic sweets as possible", "desperate times as they say lead to desperate measures", "i offered to trade my two thousand and three honda accord for all of their stock she said by telephone tuesday", "i knew it was kind of a silly thing to say but i'm serious i don't have much right now", "so i was like i've got this car and i want all that candy", "so maybe they would consider it", "in march neko chief executive michael mcgee notified the state and revere mayor brian m arigo that three hundred and ninety five workers could be laid off if the candy maker can't find a buyer", "neko which has been producing wafers since one thousand eight hundred and forty seven is revere's largest employer", "news that the company they're also known for such old timey classic as those tooth hugging squirrel nut zippers and crunchy sweethearts could close by may allegedly send people from across the country into twinkie hoarding mode", "the wall street journal reported this week that candy connoisseurs have been maniacally calling up distributors asking to buy candy in bulk", "candystorecom is calling it the great neko wafer panic", "the business claims sales of wafers have jumped since the globe first wrote about neko's financial troubles last month", "neko sales spiked more than fifty neko wafers are up sixty three the company wrote in a blog post", "a clear signal of panic buying", "they said a nice older woman called and wanted to buy one hundred pounds of wafers", "emails by the hundreds about neko branded candies came rolling in and then of course a young woman named katie contacted us offering to trade her used honda accord for all our neko wafers", "now here's max", "thank you claire", "vote delayed on yawkey way name change", "by milton j valencia", "the city's public improvement commission thursday postponed its vote on a request by the boston red sox to remove the name of former red sox owner tom yawkey from the street alongside fenway park because of yawkey's reputation reputed pattern of bigotry", "the decision by the commission came at the request of the red sox organization which has formally asked that yawkey's name be stricken from street signs and that the name the street returned to its original name of jersey street", "the team asked for the delay on wednesday in a letter written by red sox senior vice president david friedman", "he wrote that the red sox under current owner john henry remain committed to restoring the city street to its original name", "henry and his wife linda henry also own the boston globe", "we remain committed to our petition and do not seek to alter it in any way friedman wrote but he wrote the red sox wanted the panel to postpone thursday's hearing for two weeks to give the commission quote ample time to review and fully consider the substantial testimony in any new material that has been received from the community unquote", "the commission reset the vote for april 26th", "the request by the red sox comes after an emotional public hearing last month in which longtime power brokers such as philanthropists jack connors and former red sox ceo john harrington argued that yawkey's substantial charitable works should be given due consideration during the ongoing debate", "but some members of the city black community including state representative byron rushing and tanisha sullivan president of the city's naacp pointed out yawkey's reputed bigotry", "yawkey for whom the street was named in one thousand nine hundred and seventy seven owned the team from one thousand nine hundred and thirty three until his death in one thousand nine hundred and seventy six", "back to you bob", "along with my colleagues claire and max thank you for listening to the talking news and hope you've enjoyed the show", "we will return next week for another edition of local news happenings around belmont"], "name": ["snafuinfinitytalking-news_041718/snafuinfinitytalking-news_041718/talking-news_041718_DOT_flac_00000.flac", 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-{"audio_document_id": "talking-news_050118.flac", "identifier": "snafuinfinitytalking-news_050118", "text_document_id": "talking-news_050118.srt", "training_data": {"duration_ms": [12630, 12360, 11410, 2093, 6420, 16810, 8460, 3400, 31603, 7640, 13910, 7350, 1820, 10400, 5413, 11477, 3993, 1610, 15180, 25890, 13060, 4420, 4570, 4023, 18660, 17850, 17750, 3433, 5000, 9700, 12790, 15100, 12160, 9270, 10890, 13800, 12613, 8660, 21520, 4650, 1550, 1510, 9450, 7360, 19517, 8530, 5940, 17050, 10630, 11770, 7510, 21573, 1840, 42260, 9423, 14120, 4550, 7863, 5607, 6560, 9660, 17540, 1690, 1180, 6210, 11853, 5400, 6903, 7760, 9040, 8083, 7803, 3322, 1873, 27303, 10113, 5667, 15140, 10953, 9143, 12156, 7060, 7420, 19703, 9777, 2806, 11590, 8360, 6373, 3390, 8680, 6120, 3090, 3110, 5740, 1610, 1100, 4753, 15670, 7820, 9790, 10330, 2793, 5813, 8960, 22970, 5250, 3583, 12010, 5903, 20259, 2243, 6509, 11270, 8310, 1800, 10760, 3400, 7110, 11860, 6430, 9610, 23190, 1850, 2030, 6653, 15000, 10790, 5000, 20950, 9740, 11800, 8030, 4790, 4580, 5040, 4690, 4380, 2950, 3410, 7290, 8050, 2190, 5040, 4050, 5690, 1880, 15710, 4230, 8330, 4920, 3040, 7740, 3090, 13170, 3540, 6220, 5910, 1250, 2920, 2033, 6490, 2700, 10860, 2530, 4540, 4740, 3080, 5360, 3630, 2520, 2760, 4100, 3543, 3270, 1640, 1910, 1460, 1870, 1950, 1900, 6390, 1820, 6633, 3470, 2930, 2890, 15147, 6433, 12283, 8630, 3800, 4650, 6250, 3363, 8000, 8463, 8123, 2150, 5140, 8433, 2712, 4480, 5160, 10080, 6470, 883, 1100, 5143, 19220, 5513, 12899, 21843, 17393, 1493, 2714, 2550, 5000, 5943], "label": ["watch and listen to the talking news every day at twelve noon and six hundred pm on channel ninety six comcast xfinity and channel thirty verizon fios", "it can also be heard mondays and tuesdays at four hundred and thirty pm and wednesday at one thousand two hundred and thirty pm on channel nine xfinity and channel twenty nine fios", "listen any time on the bmc podcast network on soundcloud and itunes just search for the belmont media podcast network", "now on to the talking news", "major decisions to be made by town meeting by joanna kate tzouvelis", "this will be town moderator michael widmer's 11th annual town meeting in his role and he expects there will be a lot of debate on the articles related to plastic bags marijuana and the number of selectmen", "here is a preview of the warrant articles expected to be voted on for the town meeting and special town meeting", "plastic bag general bylaw", "the purpose of this article is to reduce the number of single use plastic checkout bags distributed by businesses and to promote the use of reusable bags or recyclable paper bags thin film plastic bags without handles used for laundry dry cleaning newspapers produce meat bulk foods wet items and similar merchandise would not be prohibited under this article", "public works and its recycling coordinator will have the authority to administer and enforce this article", "violators will receive a written warning for the first offense a penalty of fifty for the next violation a penalty of two hundred for the third violation and each additional violation", "the article will take effect six months after posting and publicizing or on november 1st two thousand and eighteen", "whichever is later", "for retail establishments with a net floor area equal to or exceeding thirty thousand square feet such as star market in belmont", "for retail establishments less than thirty thousand square feet of net floor area", "the article will take effect nine months after publicizing and posting or on november or on february the first two thousand and nineteen whichever is later", "this article will require a majority vote for passage", "the fattiest frost house", "this article was established two hundred and ninety two hundred and ninety one brighton street a historic district if approved the building shall not be altered in any way that affects the exterior architectural features", "thena mcginnis owner of the home newt ernest frost the grandson of thaddeus frost personally and does not want to see the home have the same fate as the thomas clark house which was moved from its original location on common street to a temporary location on concord avenue and ultimately torn down on august 21st two thousand and fourteen", "the fattiest frost house was built in one thousand eight hundred and twenty seven and is one of the few remaining examples of federal period architecture in belmont that survives virtually unchanged", "the living area is two thousand seven hundred and twelve square feet", "and the lot is twelve thousand four hundred and eighty six square feet", "a majority vote will be required for passage of this article", "general residents were zoning bylaw amendment approval of this article will eliminate the sunset clause for the zoning bylaw for nonconforming single and two family residential structures making it a permanent amendment", "the amendment required homeowners in the general residence district to go before the planning board for design and site plan review for additions or new construction this will require two thirds vote for passage", "there was also an article that revises special permit requirements for alteration of nonconforming structures in the general residents zoning district allocating projects less than three hundred square feet to the zoning board of appeals", "this will require a two thirds vote for passage", "in may 2nd fy19 community preservation projects", "there are six community preservation projects seeking approval by town meeting for fy nineteen on may the second", "the highest ticket item is seven hundred and eighty thousand and seven hundred and eighty thousand and eighty seven to construct a walking path around grove street park", "and for other park improvements pace and park music festival is requesting the lowest ticket item five thousand for structural drawings for a performance stage to be added at pace and park", "the veterans memorial committee is asking for one hundred and three thousand to restore the existing monument at clay pit pond to its original condition", "other funds would be would integrate the memorial into the intergenerational walking path at clay pit pond", "a committee to restore town field playground is requesting twenty five thousand for design documents for new equipment and improvements", "the land management committee is requesting one hundred and seventy five thousand for repairs to the formal mcclain barn at rock meadow to prevent further deterioration of this historic structure", "in the future when the town determines an appropriate use for the pond the project sponsor would develop a funding mechanism to support the rehabilitation estimated to cost two million", "the belmont housing trust is requesting two hundred and fifty thousand to pursue affordable housing opportunities", "monies will be expended per a housing trust agreement to be developed with the selectmen possible uses of funding include purchasing land or affordable units working with developers to promote the affordable housing or leveraging state and private funds to increase the number of affordable units", "a majority vote is required for passage of this article", "and now over to claire", "thank you bob", "schematic design plans for the new belmont high school taking shape by jovana ks of dallas", "if residents haven't been paying attention to the work of the belmont high school building committee they may want to start", "the committee has been meeting frequently with project design at perkinson will as they prepare for the preferred schematic design to be submitted to the massachusetts school building authority in july for the new grade seven through twelve high school building to accommodate two thousand two hundred and fifteen students", "for the past two months the committee has been refining the design in an effort to get the total project cost down", "at the most recent meeting april 11th the total project cost was reviewed", "the total square footage of the building has been reduced by six thousand four hundred and seventy five feet from four hundred and fifty one thousand five hundred and seventy five to four hundred and forty five thousand one hundred square feet", "the cost per square foot has also been reduced from five hundred and fortynine dollars and fiftythree cents to five hundred and thirtythree dollars and eighty cents", "bringing the total project estimated cost to two hundred and ninety five million eight hundred and twenty four thousand six hundred and twenty four dollars", "from three hundred and nine million forty five thousand nine hundred and fifteen dollars", "belmont estimated contribution is now two hundred and eighteen million nine hundred and ten thousand two hundred and twenty two a reduction of around ninety eight million from two hundred and twenty eight million six hundred and ninety three thousand nine hundred and seventy seven", "bow tie design", "on january 23rd this two school committee voted unanimously in favor of a grade seven through twelve option which will change the lower school configurations to kindergarten through third grade for the butler burbank wellington and windbrook schools and grades four through six for the chenery middle school the school committee board of selectmen and bhs building committee also voted on january 23rd on the major addition minor renovation design option known as the bow tie with two separate entrances for upper and lower school students", "course base on the first floor of the building will be shared which will include a prefunction area for the auditorium theater and gymnasiums", "design tweaks and discussions instead of individual practice rooms for music students the new school is being designed to have space for small group practices instead of small practice rooms wrote lovallo", "gender neutral bathrooms were discussed at the april eleven meeting", "perkinson will presented options to consider such as a gender neutral bathroom with a common sink area in the center", "we're not going to build individual bathrooms for every person that needs a bathroom", "we're looking at ways to be efficient and respectful of those that need their privacy said lovallo", "upcoming meetings are april 26th design update and workshop seven hundred pm in the wellington elementary cafeteria", "may 8th design update and virtual reality presentation seven hundred pm chenery middle school community room and may sixteen traffic solutions discussion seven hundred pm wellington elementary cafeteria", "now to max", "thanks claire", "town meeting to decide future of marijuana in belmont by joanna kate tzouvelis", "pam eager is the belmont town meeting member for precinct eight behind a citizens petition that would let voters decide if they want to stop nonmedical marijuana businesses from opening in belmont", "action on this article requires a special town meeting which is taking place may 2nd", "this bylaw if approved at special town meeting would not apply to a registered marijuana debt dispensary", "the purpose of the article according to eager is to let belmont voters decide whether or not to permit marijuana establishments in belmont", "if town meeting members vote no then there will be no town wide election and nonmedical marijuana establishments will be allowed in belmont", "if town meeting votes yes then the belmont board of selectmen will decide if there is going to be a town wide election for belmont voters to decide", "according to town council george hall the selectmen will have the final say on whether or not there will be a special election for voters to decide", "this article will require a majority vote for passage", "town supported question four", "in the november two thousand and sixteen state election massachusetts voters approved ballot question four approving a law permitting the possession use distribution and cultivation of marijuana in limited amounts by persons aged twenty one and older removing criminal penalties for such activities and providing for the regulation and commerce in marijuana marijuana accessories and marijuana products and for the taxation of proceeds from sales of these items", "in belmont question four passed by a seven thousand and seventeen vote margin five thousand two hundred and forty eight voted in favor and four thousand seven hundred and fifty two voted against it", "belmont's turnout in the election was high eight thousand two hundred and forty one of registered voters went to the polls", "wording in the question also stated cities and towns would be authorized to adopt a reasonable restrictions on the time place and manner of operating marijuana businesses and to limit the number of marijuana establishments in their communities", "a city or town could hold a local vote to determine whether to permit the selling of marijuana and marijuana products for consumption on the premises at commercial establishments", "emma thurston town meeting member for precinct one filed six amendments to the citizens petitioned to be discussed by the bylaw review committee april 25th", "my amendments simply give town meeting nonbinary options for prohibiting the recreational marijuana establishment thurston explained in an email to the citizen herald on april 24th", "the citizens position is an all or nothing opt out for an issue that is exponentially more nuanced than that", "these amendments give multiple options for allowing or disallowing various types of marijuana establishments in our town", "the sunset clause is address the fact that this is an entirely new industry for the state and should be voted upon bylaws not addressed the needs or wants of the town in three years perhaps this would be a more efficient way to revisit those bylaws instead of the messy way in which we had to walk back our alcohol ban", "depending on the outcome of the bylaw review committee meeting april 25th special town meeting may have amendments to the citizens petition to vote on", "article eight temporary moratorium", "this town meeting article is for a moratorium on marijuana establishments to last through december 31st two thousand and eighteen and requires a two thirds vote for passage", "during the moratorium the town would consider adopting a new zone the adoption of new zoning bylaws relevant to marijuana establishments", "this article will require a two thirds vote for passage and town meeting is expected to vote on it may 2nd", "article nine three sales tax", "this town meeting article would allow a three local sales tax on retail sales by our marijuana retailer located in belmont", "regulations permit no more than one marijuana retailer to open in belmont at this time", "the three tax would go into the town coffers", "according to selectman chairman adam dash", "a majority vote will be required for passage and town meeting is expected to vote on it may 2nd", "over to you bob", "thank you max", "items to bring to the belmont recycling event a mary beth column", "it's the it's that time of year when residents have the chance to recycle textiles electronics and paper shredding from nine hundred am to one hundred pm may the 12th at the town yard thirty seven c street", "note that the listed recyclables are the only items we can accept also no early birds", "we need trucks to come in and can't have cars in the way residents should follow the recycling instructions for each type of item", "textiles must be dry and clean includes clothing linens footwear purses belts and stuffed animals", "items can be ripped and stained", "it is estimated the average us citizen throws away seventy pounds of clothing each year", "out of the ninety five of textiles that can be donated or recycled only fifteen achieve this result", "the other eighty five end up in the trash when textiles are donated forty five are reused and repurposed mostly as exports thirty are converted into rags twenty are used as fiber and home insulation and carpet padding only five ends up as waste", "keep towels and sheets separate to donate to the animal rescue league", "no bulky rigid plastics will be taken this year", "electronic recycling anything with a plug excluding lodge appliances air conditioners refrigerators of any size gas yard and power equipment", "paper shredding limited to five boxes sponsored by the watertown savings", "now is the time to clean out your home office and safely get rid of all your sensitive documents that have been accumulating and taking up space boxes of your unwanted documents are shredded onsite in seconds voluntary cash donations are accepted to benefit the belmont sport for this service", "usable eyeglasses", "the belmont lions club will be collecting usable eyeglasses for their recycled for site program", "books hard and soft cover books audio books movies music game cds and dvds will be recycled by recycle that", "propane tanks propane tanks over twenty pounds or other types of gas tanks will not be accepted", "save the town money", "if you just have a propane tank to dispose and no hazardous waste bring to the dpw recycled days instead of hhw days", "note that helium tanks will not be accepted", "think twice about buying balloons and helium tanks both are not environmentally friendly", "balloons even biodegradable ones cause litter when they are released outside eventually falling back down into waterways fields and forests", "once on the ground they can harm wildlife and marine animals before they slowly break down", "tanks that store helium can't be put in the trash or collected by the town need to find a scrap metal recycler for that", "scrap metal items must be all metal no wood or concrete attached examples are bed rails metal filing cabinets pipes tire rims not the tire metal furniture chairs rod iron cast iron non coated pots and pans etcetera", "and now over to claire", "thank you bob", "a local author's new book details her son's addiction and death by carrie feltner", "kate genovese traces it back to sports between his hockey and football careers her son chris known as gino had six surgeries four for his knees and two for his shoulders", "those surgeries brought pain medication into his life and amount of drugs that never left his life and only got worse after his sporting pursuits ended", "gino died at age thirty in two thousand and sixteen from an overdose", "watertown native genovese chronicles her son's life and opioid addiction in a book called hat tricks from heaven the story of an athlete in his own prison of addiction the book took her over a year to write and was officially released in november of two thousand and seventeen", "today genovese is on the massachusetts organization of addiction recovery committee and the central massachusetts opioid committee", "genovese will host a book signing at the watertown free public library at six hundred and thirty pm on wednesday june 13th two thousand and eighteen", "proceeds from the book will be put towards opening a sober house called gino's house somewhere in new england", "so far the book has raised five thousand toward this effort", "kate genovese sat down to discuss the book and her son's story", "why did you write this book the opioid problem is so huge right now", "he seems like the most unlikely kid that would overdose", "he was an athlete really smart and had tons of friends", "we traveled all over the place with his hockey", "he went to private school with a scholarship", "so he got through school and he got a really good job and had a girlfriend but he kept slipping", "how did his multiple surgeries exacerbate the problem it was mainly his shoulder it was really bad", "he just kept getting surgery", "i want to point out that this disease can come from all walks of life", "the doctors thought nothing of giving him prescriptions", "one time i spoke to the doctor about it and i said i think he's had enough", "i don't think he needs more", "the doctor said to me you don't know how serious his shoulder is and quote stop being a helicopter mother i was kind of intimidated over twenty years ago i was younger and not as bold", "we didn't really see him every day to know what he was doing", "when did you know he had a problem his roommate from college called us one day and told us he was really addicted and needed help", "he got into legal trouble and the legal system was equally as horrible", "he had break probation and have to go to court", "and instead of him doing something the court would say quote give us three hundred that's all they did", "he ended up in jail and that was horrible", "at that point he said i need help i know i do what surprised you about gino's situation i just didn't think he would die for some reason i didn't think he would", "my husband and i felt like we did a lot of things wrong", "we did a lot of things correct too but parents shouldn't feel guilty like it's their fault", "i think that's one of the messages of the book because you do what you can", "it's just crazy", "i could see in his eyes there was something wrong", "he had no control over it", "how did you find the writing experience it was very therapeutic and i wrote it with my editor", "she had lost her son too", "what advice do you have to other families that are dealing with this issue i would just say start talking to children at an early age about it", "fifth grade no later really", "because then they hit middle school and there's so much going on", "you should just really be very open with them about it how dangerous it could be", "especially if it runs in your family", "if you're bummed out about and depressed it takes away everything all feeling", "he was captain of his teams he was wellliked", "he had a lot of friends he had a girlfriend", "he was very social and he helped others", "he just was very charismatic and he loved us", "he loved his dog frankie it's just so sad", "other comments i'm really mad at the system", "they had a lot to do with it", "they weren't paying attention", "there's just not enough help", "and they get burnt out", "it's a tough disease to deal with", "it only gets worse", "there's a variety of things that lead to it now over to max", "thank you claire", "talking trash automated trash and recycling pickup will begin july 1st by christy armstrong", "when the director of public works talks trash people listen", "and with big changes coming to help belmont's waste is handled", "there is a lot of trash talking going on", "jay marcott belmont's public works director recently hosted a community conversation about the new trash and recycling program at town hall on april 10th to inform the public of what the changes are and how they will be implemented", "we are trying to advertise the new trash system that will be in place starting this july marcott said at the presentation", "we tried to look at every single option and alternative the option that was approved unanimously by the board of selectmen in february is for belmont to switch over to an automated trash and recycling service", "every household will receive a black sixty four gallon wheeled trash barrel and a blue ninety six gallon wheeled recycling barrel", "in multifamily dwellings each unit will receive its own set of barrels", "so two family houses will receive two sets of barrels", "residents will be limited to throwing away one bulky item like a mattress or furniture per week", "everything else must fit into the trash or recycling barrels", "pick up of the bulky item will need to be scheduled in advance by calling public works by noon the day before trash pickup", "excess trash will need to be put in an official town overflow trash bag which will be sold for three each at select locations in town", "yard waste pickup will remain the same as it is currently but christmas trees will only be collected during the first two weeks of january", "recycling will now be single stream", "so residents will no longer have to sort plastics paper and cardboard separately", "several attendees of the april 10th at the presentation expressed their support for this shift to single stream recycling and the simplifying of the process", "we did this to control our costs explained barkat", "the way we collect our trash right now is the most expensive way to collect trash", "our collection costs for this year fiscal year two thousand and eighteen are one million one hundred and forty eight thousand nine hundred and thirty", "with this new fiveyear contract soup to nuts our automated collection including the cost of the barrels will be one million fifteen thousand and sixty per year", "marcott said automation is preferred because since everything is standardized costs can be controlled", "over to you bob", "thank you max", "cities towns prepare for future cemetery needs by melissa russel", "as certainly as death comes for all the end of cemetery spaces on the horizon for many communities fortunately for belmont highland meadow cemetery opened in two thousand and seven after belmont cemetery ran out of plots for purchase in one thousand nine hundred and eighty eight", "and is not expected to reach capacity for at least another twenty years", "without the expansion there would not have been adequate space to meet the needs of belmont residents just as the aging baby boom generation is expected to cause a spike in burial needs", "massachusetts state law requires cities and towns take responsibilities for the burial of their dead with an anticipated spike in demand for cemetery space in the coming ten to fifteen years municipalities around the region looking at their cemeteries and making plans for the longterm", "thomas daley a national cemetery consultant with cemetery helpful solutions said even in areas where burial space is not an issue in the foreseeable future town planners are addressing cemetery space in their master plans", "and now over to claire", "now we'll hear from bob to wrap it up", "along with my colleagues claire and max", "we thank you for listening to the talking news and hope that you've enjoyed the show", "we will return next week for another edition of local news happenings around belmont"], "name": ["snafuinfinitytalking-news_050118/snafuinfinitytalking-news_050118/talking-news_050118_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_050118/snafuinfinitytalking-news_050118/talking-news_050118_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_050118/snafuinfinitytalking-news_050118/talking-news_050118_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_050118/snafuinfinitytalking-news_050118/talking-news_050118_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_050118/snafuinfinitytalking-news_050118/talking-news_050118_DOT_flac_00004.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_050118/snafuinfinitytalking-news_050118/talking-news_050118_DOT_flac_00005.flac", 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4020, 1243, 2124, 5546, 9520, 4810, 4503, 16480, 6913, 23620, 5153, 2970, 4730, 6010, 7200, 4650, 4440, 4333, 3583, 6340, 3270, 4970, 8100, 1500, 943, 30083, 20203, 12460, 19570, 13330, 16880, 6833, 8010, 18083, 1283, 1547, 10303, 48083, 51443, 4640, 913, 1914, 5056, 11150, 6727, 10973, 5660, 5229, 5961, 2760, 3957, 12763, 5850, 7557, 13206, 7277, 7003, 7737, 17010, 7293, 873, 7810, 6163], "label": ["watch and listen to the talking news every day at one thousand two hundred noon and six hundred pm on channel ninety six comcast xfinity and channel thirty verizon fios", "it can also be heard mondays and tuesdays at four hundred and thirty pm and wednesday at one thousand two hundred and thirty pm on channel nine xfinity and channel twenty nine fios", "listen anytime on the bmc podcast network on soundcloud and itunes", "just search for the belmont media podcast network", "and now onto the the talking news", "plastic bag ban approved by joanna k tzouvelis", "the first night of the annual belmont town meeting ended at nine hundred and thirty pm with six articles approved by wide margins with the most discussion on the plastic bag ban", "town meeting continued on wednesday may 3rd and is expected to vote on the citizen's petition for a special election to opt out of the nonmedical retail establishment in belmont and seven amendments to that petition which would allow one or more types of marijuana establishments to be voted on if a special election is approved", "belmont is now one of more than sixty five massachusetts towns which is banning retailers from using thin film singleuse plastic checkout bags with handles", "the selectman's article to ban thin film plastic checkout bags passed at the town meeting by more than twothirds vote on april 30th", "beginning this november or possibly sooner star market in belmont will no longer provide singleuse thin film plastic checkout bags to customers", "they will have recyclable paper bags and also sell reusable shopping bags or customers can bring their own reusable shopping bags", "smaller retail stores defined as those covering less than thirty thousand square feet will no longer be allowed to use the thin film singleuse plastic checkout bags beginning in february two thousand and nineteen or sooner if their current plastic bag stock runs out", "a special election could determine whether or not belmont will allow certain types any type or no nonmedical retail marijuana establishments to open in belmont once the citizens petition to opt out of the state's legalization of such establishments and the seven amendments voted on by the town meeting", "in the meantime town meeting took advantage of some extra time on april thirty to vote on two articles related to retail marijuana establishments the three local sales tax at a temporary moratorium", "the article for a temporary moratorium passed one hundred and ninety to fifty two", "this will give the planning board until december 31st two thousand and eighteen to draft zoning regulations for nonmedical retail marijuana establishments in belmont", "a three marijuana sales tax was approved two hundred and thirty one to seven", "this will allow the town to judge nonmedical retail marijuana establishments a three local sales tax", "the revenue from this sales tax will go into the town coffers to be used for anything the town decides to use it for", "former board of health member dr david alper also a town meeting member for precinct six said stores in colorado generate up to forty thousand annually from local sales tax", "there is no longer a sunset clause on the general residents zoning bylaw put in place in two thousand and fourteen to prevent oversized and outofcharacter additions and new construction", "the amendment requiring special permits to such projects to be reviewed and approved by the planning board is now permanent", "town meeting voted two hundred and thirty eight to sixteen in favor of the article", "special permits for smaller projects defined as three hundred square feet or less such as decks or dormers will now be reviewed and approved by the zoning board of appeals", "town meeting approved this article two hundred and forty two to nine", "belmont will now have an additional historic district", "it's first singlefamily property pending approval by attorney general maura healey's office", "town meeting approved an article to make two hundred and ninety one brighton street a local historic district", "this means current or future owners will have to get approval by the belmont historical district commission for any changes to the exterior of the home visible from a public way", "the home is the last surviving property of what was once a 17acre farm owned by the frost family which grew celery", "it was built in the 1800s and is one of a few remaining examples of federal style architecture in belmont", "and now on to claire", "thank you bob", "residents give suggestions to design team for belmont high school project by christie armstrong", "the belmont high school building committee continued its design quest with a community forum on april 26th at the wellington elementary school", "belmont residents were encouraged to give their feedback on the current design model and help brainstorm uses for what is being called the south plaza an outdoor space between the south side of the new building and clay pit pond", "the meeting began with a discussion of the revised design for the lower school which will house the seventh and eighth graders in a separate wing from the ninth through 12th graders", "the aim is to give the lower grades a discreet sense of place according to consultant brooke trivas from perkinson will the project's design team", "the lower school wing will be angled away from the closest section of the main building to provide more natural light and open space in that area", "discussion of design", "dick madden a pleasant street resident expressed concerns about the overall look of the building and whether all of the open space was necessary", "i see an awful lot of heat in the winter time pouring through that glass madden said", "the bhs building committee chairman bill lovallo said the building's energy use is being carefully considered", "and the open spaces allow for natural light lovallo also noted classrooms in new school buildings are now required by code to be located on an outside wall", "john kolterman a precinct one resident and the former chairman of sustainable belmont also asked about energy efficiency and the goals for a net zero building", "in net zero buildings the total amount of energy used by the structure on an annual basis is to be roughly equal to the amount of renewable energy created on the site", "lovallo said the building will still achieve a very high level of energy efficiency even if it doesn't hit net zero", "kolterman also raised concerns about traffic in the area and encouraged the committee to give more thought in terms of urban mobility particularly with covered parking areas for bicycles", "concern about expense of project", "resident charles smart and school committee member tara donner also expressed concern about the expense of the project", "according to lovallo the total project cost is currently estimated at two hundred and ninety five million with up to forty subsidized by the massachusetts school building authority", "this project will likely add one thousand eight hundred to the average annual tax bill for homeowners over a thirty year period said bob mclaughlin bhs permanent building committee and warrant committee member", "now here's max", "thanks claire", "meet belmont's new facilities director by joanna k tzouvelis", "town administator patrice garvin introduced belmont's new facilities director at the april 12th board of selectmen meeting", "steve dorrance officially starts his new position on april 30th", "he replaced gerald boyle who officially retired on december 29th", "dorrance has been working for the state for the past four years as bureau director of facilities for the four department of public health hospitals two million square feet forty five buildings one thousand acres of parking", "dorrance has an undergraduate degree from suffolk university in clinical psychology and a degree in criminal justice from another institution", "his graduate work was done at harvard university where he specialized in organizational development", "dorrance took the time to answer some questions from the citizen herald so the community could get to know him a little better", "what are you looking forward to most about this new role for you in belmont keeping in mind that i've not yet started but from the interviewing process it seems as though there are a number of challenges facing the new director", "among them are developing comprehensive preventative maintenance programs for all the mechanical systems in the buildings throughout the town", "fully implementing the work order system and associated modules will be extremely helpful to us as a way of measuring productivity helping us get in front of smaller issues before they become larger and more expensive and give us a routine way of communicating with those who are requesting maintenance and repair services", "the system as i hope it will work will be instrumental in providing metrics on a number of things including the frequency and cost of repairs on missioncritical systems", "i am looking forward to addressing some of the shortterm operational issues and longerterm strategic matters including the myriad of choices related to the new high school construction", "for many years i was a member of the national trust for historic preservation and personally did a number of authentic period restorations of antique homes", "i live in an one thousand eight hundred and seventy six farmhouse", "i am excited about the stewardship responsibility for belmont's period municipal structures what do you see as the greatest challenges of this role since i have not officially started yet it's a bit of a challenge to enumerate what the biggest challenges could be", "on the face of it it seems as though there's a backlog of work that needs to be prioritized and completed", "next summer break is just a few weeks away and ensuring that all the work that has to be done over break is appropriately specified bid and ready to be started", "lastly i see the facilities department as a customer service function", "we exist to serve the needs of everyone who uses or works in municipal buildings including staff students residents and others what do you think are your greatest strengths which will benefit you in this role as a vocation and avocation i have built structures of many types in multiple states", "i understand at a detailed level construction practices methods and techniques", "this knowledge will hopefully be important as we consider preserving our existing structures and building new ones", "i hope the handson practical knowledge coupled with the experience of daytoday operational building management will be the right combination for belmont what have been your greatest challenges in your current position virtually all of my experience save four years is in the private sector", "in that world performance goals and incentives are for the most part very clear", "change and innovation in the private sector are among other things key to personal success and organizational survival and prosperity", "it was a challenge for me to adjust to a system that does not reward any of the things to which i have become accustomed over my threeplusdecadelong career", "lastly although there is a tremendous need for standardization and implementation of best practices it was very difficult to get there given the organizational resistance to change what accomplishments did you make in your current position that you were most proud of i started at one hospital and over a period of about eighteen months assumed overall responsibility for some aspects of four hospitals including eight hundred beds a thousand acres 40plus buildings acres of parking and miles of roadways over to you bob", "thank you max", "funeral director advises people to plan ahead by joanna k tzevoulis nicholas faggas founder of faggas funeral home in watertown always used to say there are two things in life you're never going to avoid", "death and taxes he started his business in one thousand nine hundred and sixty three and retired in two thousand and fifteen", "his daughter adrianne always looked up to her father and joined the business in one thousand nine hundred and eighty seven", "her daughter nicole is now a thirdgeneration funeral director and embalmer", "adrianne says today's generation doesn't think about the death care industry and importance of planning ahead she often has clients who are shocked at how much it costs to give a loved one a proper burial", "the average cost of a burial is about seven thousand five hundred and this does not include the cost of the plot", "if you're not prepared you have to know that a funeral could be a very big expense if you don't own grave space because you have to purchase a grave says adrianne", "the total cost of a burial with the plot for a municipal cemetery is ten thousand to twelve thousand", "if it's a private cemetery total cost of a burial with the plot starts at eighteen thousand", "prices for cemetery plots vary from cemetery to cemetery", "she said local municipal cemeteries like ridgelawn in watertown no longer allow residents to prepurchase because there is not enough space", "if you are a watertown resident without a plot you get the next one in line", "a single grave for two burials at a municipal cemetery is one thousand three hundred and eight hundred to open it", "buying a cemetery plot is like buying a home says adrianne", "it's important for families to see where it is and make sure they like the location plots at private cemeteries like newton cemetery or the gardens start at six thousand and an additional three thousand to open", "the cost of a plot at the historic mount auburn cemetery in cambridge and watertown starts at sixty thousand and about two thousand one hundred to open the grave one thousand for the grave liner", "and to be buried on a saturday it's an extra one thousand two hundred", "it's about three thousand eight hundred to be buried on a saturday at mount auburn if you already own a grave said adrianne", "she said it's prime real estate there", "many people are opting for cremation because of the lower cost and the lack of cemetery space", "the total cost for cremation is two thousand three hundred according to adrianne", "she said cremation is now seventy of the business for many funeral homes", "nowadays i have families come in and say just give us the cheapest casket or cremate them they just don't want to be bothered", "a funeral is part of life", "it is not only a religious ceremony it helps people come to the realization that their loved one is no longer with them", "so death is really for the living she said", "she recommends doing a preneed revocation trust to prepay the guarantee the services and merchandise costs at today's prices", "and now onto claire", "thank you bob", "reliving the prom by joanna k tzouvelis", "seniors entering the beech street center on april 27th received hollywood treatment with a red carpet and runway a photographer taking their photos a colorful balloon archway and centerpieces a popcorn station live entertainment dinner and dancing at belmont's first intergenerational prom", "the belmont council on aging assistant director lillian hartman organized this event with the assistance of belmont high school volunteer students from the belmontian club", "other towns hold intergenerational proms which many belmont seniors enjoy attending said david ching", "he loved burlington's intergenerational prom so much he presented the idea to have one in belmont to hartman who took it on wholeheartedly", "belmont should have this type of event so their teens and seniors can showcase their ability to organize share good spirit and bring vitality to a common place across generations", "it was reminiscent but celebrated who we are today and left lasting good impressions for all", "teens in the kitchen laughed that they recognize most of the 1950s and 1960s rock and roll performed by stanley and the undercovers", "and it was great to see teen servers get out on the dance floor after dinner said hartman", "volunteer teams from coldwell banker leader bank friends of belmont coa and belmont high school took on projects to help make the event a success", "black and white photos of resident's proms from one thousand nine hundred and fifty five to one thousand nine hundred and sixty added to the hollywoodthemed decor", "the bhs madrigal singers and dancers from fred astaire dance studio in belmont including belmont resident and dance student sherry jones entertained guests", "ladies also received roses after dinner", "now here's max", "thank you claire", "community shows support for becca pizzi 5k road race by joanna k tzouvelis", "nearly five hundred people ages two to seventy registered for the third annual becca pizzi 5k road race on april 29th despite the wet weather", "the event started off with a onemile run for children with one hundred participants", "belmont savings bank was the major sponsor and belmont boosters were the organizers", "the event became an annual tradition three years ago after pizzi became the first ever american woman to complete in excuse me compete in and win the world marathon challenge running seven marathons on seven continents in seven days", "she made history again this year participating and winning the world marathon challenge a second time", "in her opening remarks before a large crowd at the belmont high school track where pizzi once shown as a star athlete and runs religiously every day she announced she was getting into the guinness book of world records for the fastest time to complete a marathon in each of the seven continents by a female in six days eighteen hours and thirty eight minutes january 23rd to 30th two thousand and sixteen", "i am so excited we keep growing bigger and bigger even with the hurdle of pouring rain", "belmont and surrounding towns still came out to run", "i'm inspired by how loyal and loving our community is said pizzi", "scott dedeo finished first in the male category finishing at eighteen minutes and fifty four seconds", "kristin barishian pizzi's sister was the first female to finish at twenty one minutes twenty three seconds", "awards were presented for male and female winners in eight age categories", "the youngest winner of the 5k was molly sheehan finishing in twenty four minutes", "the oldest winner was missy shay finishing in thirty one minutes four seconds", "i really can't believe that i have my own race named after me", "this is a dream come true to see signs around my town with my name on it in the town i grew up in", "i love belmont so much pizzi said", "pizzi manages moozy's ice cream in belmont and owns a daycare in belmont", "proceeds from the race will benefit the becca pizzi foundation scholarship which will be presented to graduating bhs students in june", "over to you bob", "thank you max", "belmont man pleads guilty to two thousand and sixteen sexual assault middlesex district attorney marian ryan and belmont police chief richard mclaughlin have announced that zachary st paul thirty five of belmont pleaded guilty today in middlesex superior court to sexual assault charges in connection with the two thousand and sixteen rape of a woman who was known to him", "st paul pleaded guilty to two counts of rape one count of indecent assault and battery of a person over the age of fourteen one count of photographing an unsuspecting nude person and willful dissemination of a photograph of a nude person", "according to a press release from ryan's office judge kathe tuttman sentenced the defendant to nine hundred and twelve years in state prison and five years probation", "as part of the terms of probation tuttman ordered the defendant to wear a gps monitoring bracelet to stay away from and have no contact with the victim to undergo a sexual offender evaluation and comply with any recommended followup care", "the release states on june 12th two thousand and sixteen belmont police were notified by the victim that she had been sexually assaulted the night before in the defendant's belmont home", "the victim told police she had been out with the defendant on the night of june 11th two thousand and sixteen and when she awoke next to the defendant the next morning the defendant informed the victim that they had engaged in sexual intercourse", "the victim had no recollection of this event and had no memory of returning to the defendant's home", "the victim borrowed the defendant's phone on which she located photos of herself without clothes on", "a search warrant was executed on the defendant's phone by belmont police who found multiple still photos of the victim in a state of undress as well as videos of the defendant sexually assaulting her while she was unconscious", "and now over to claire", "thank you bob", "should belmont increase number of selectmen town meeting expected to have decided by may 7th by joanna k tzevoulis", "some of the arguments to keep the number of selectmen the same are allow board deliberations to remain transparent and open to the public every selectman is vested in the job elections would remain competitive three members are more apt to reach a consensus meetings are efficient and reasonable length current level of authority and accountability would be maintained salary and benefit costs would not increase town administrator communications with individual selectmen would not increase too much is at stake for a change of this magnitude now", "some of the arguments for increasing the number of selectmen are greatest stability for town government in policyplanning and hiring increased representation diversity and viewpoints less likelihood of one board member being isolated or dominating others potential for wider range of skills and experience on the board permits members to use one other member as a sounding board and communicate outside a meeting increased access to board members for town residents increased ability to communicate with town committees and increased ability to attend external meetings", "and the source is committee to study the number of selectmen", "now here's max", "thank you claire", "kinesthetic connection couple finds community at belmont dance studio by abby patkin", "with her nephew's wedding coming up nancy lowenstein was just looking to get in some dance lessons with her husband joe rancatore who owns rancatore's ice cream yogurt in belmont and lexington", "dancing was par for the course but the couple didn't expect to find a community at belmont's fred astaire dance studio", "we started off just wanting to learn how to dance and then we kind of found a nice community and a nice kind of family there said lowenstein of one of those studio's many lexingtonbased students", "this community and shared passion for dance are what convinced lowenstein and her husband to stay", "two years later the couple continues to take regular lessons at fred astaire's", "we've made new friends that we see outside of the studio now so that's also been something that we really didn't plan on", "and i think that's been a nice part of this too", "just the community you get connected to there lowenstein said", "it really has been a lot more than learning how to dance contributing to community the sense of community is exactly what made the studio's new owner belmont resident elizabeth woo want to invest", "having taken classes at fred astaire's for more than ten years she has seen it all firsthand", "when she heard the studio would be on the market woo jumped at the chance to take over for the previous owners earl and jennifer batol", "when they approached me with this opportunity i felt like this was serendipity working to put me in this place because it was something that i wanted to do in terms of running my own business but it was also something i was passionate about woo explained", "taking over the studio is woo's way of giving back to her community and fulfilling her dream of running her own business she said", "when my husband asked me why i wanted to do this i joked semiseriously that this is my midlife crisis project", "an affair is way too much work and i've already owned a sports car she wrote in an announcement to the students", "knowledge that i will not cure cancer or solve world peace this is my opportunity to make a greater contribution to my community and hopefully enrich the lives of the staff and students they teach woo a biotech executive is also enjoying the chance to try something new", "it's also an opportunity to show my kids that it's never too late to do something that's completely out of your comfort zone she said", "back to you bob", "along with my colleagues claire and max we thank you for listening to the talking news and hope you have enjoyed the show", "we will return next week for another edition of local news happenings around belmont"], "name": ["snafuinfinitytalking-news_050818_title2/snafuinfinitytalking-news_050818_title2/talking-news_050818_title2_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_050818_title2/snafuinfinitytalking-news_050818_title2/talking-news_050818_title2_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_050818_title2/snafuinfinitytalking-news_050818_title2/talking-news_050818_title2_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_050818_title2/snafuinfinitytalking-news_050818_title2/talking-news_050818_title2_DOT_flac_00003.flac", 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9003, 9830, 1590, 13040, 6900, 5610, 7730, 10820, 7130, 7050, 11060, 8490, 14973, 12800, 12810, 17040, 10570, 4460, 7960, 7140, 2823, 5290, 3943, 12060, 2003, 7540, 3903, 5680, 14080, 1540, 3250, 9560, 8203, 8920, 5610, 6933, 3917, 16073, 4790, 17640, 8710, 13410, 26630, 3740, 7610, 15600, 3070, 2870, 3120, 11390, 4737, 10203, 5390, 4190, 6270, 3633, 3170, 15513], "label": ["welcome to talking news", "we are delighted to have you with us listening to our presentation by members of the beech street center cindy jonathan and irene", "we will be reading local news and happenings from the community newspaper", "program benefits dogs by bram berkowitz", "is your dog barking at the window whenever people or other dogs walk by does it try to attack the mailman excuse me when he or she comes around if so there is a good chance that the dog has lots of pent up energy and is yearning for some more exercise and playtime with other dogs", "in two thousand and eleven belmont established the offtheleash program to meet this need allowing residents and nonresidents to purchase permits so their dogs could run without a leash at select parks in town", "dogs can run off the leash at fields at the belmont high school minus the turf field or running track", "winn brook grove street pequossette and town field", "the program is currently at its most successful having issued one hundred and twelve permits this year the most to date according to june howell program supervisor at belmont recreation department", "an informational meeting will be held to further discuss the program and allow people to provide feedback on june 20th", "the thing i really want to stress to people is that the program doesn't just benefit dogs and dog owners", "it benefits everyone said belmont animal control officer john maguranis", "the dogs that are well socialized with people and other dogs and get the opportunity to run and play and burn energy those are the dogs that go home and sleep and relax", "residents can pick up permits which must be renewed annually from town hall", "a maximum of four dogs is allowed per ownerwalker including professional dog walkers", "and the program will issue up to two hundred permits", "the town uses the money earned from the program to hire a dog trainer to provide lessons to dog owners about everything from park etiquette to understanding a dog's behavior", "owners must clean up after their pets accept responsibility for their dog's behavior and must not allow their dog within one hundred and fifty feet of tot lots areas designated for young children", "i think it's a great program and i support it one hundred said maguranis", "who said a good group of dog owners is typically at poquessette park between eight hundred and nine hundred and thirty am on most days", "the dogs get to know each other and the people get to know each other they have a blast", "prior to two thousand and eleven belmont had a similar program in place called goose busters", "but maguranis said the program did not have a lot of oversight and permits were pretty much issued to anyone", "now he said dogs must be licensed and have all of the proper vaccinations before they are eligible for a permit", "they must also adhere to a pet behavior assessment and review of the regulations with maguranis", "this said maguranis involves a trial off the leash session to see how a dog behaves with other dogs", "it also involves going over the rules like how to report incidents where one dog may have bitten another he said", "maguranis said he has had to turn away some dogs but it is very infrequent", "he also said if dogs are not one hundred ready to be off the leash owners typically have the opportunity to work with the trainer hired by the town to get them ready", "jonathan", "westcott mercantile expands for second time in belmont by joanna tzouvelis", "belmont residents mary westcott thomajan and lynne czamanske have found a way to combine their creative talents into a refreshingly new retail concept", "many years ago thomajan and her sisters envisioned opening an upscale old style general store offering a unique selection of gifts home decor artisan goods and one of a kind vintage finds in a nostalgic atmosphere", "czamanske signed on to be chief mercantile officer and that dream became a reality when she and thomajan opened the doors to westcott mercantile's flagship location at four hundred and thirty eight common street in belmont in april two thousand and fourteen", "despite many construction woes in cushing square the lack of movement on the cushing village project and the ongoing work being done on the trapelo road corridor project westcott mercantile has managed to maintain a steady loyal consumer base and even expand amid these constraints", "lynne and i have worked diligently to promote all of the unique local businesses in cushing square said thomajan founding the cushing square merchants association in two thousand and fifteen", "within six months of the opening store's day they expanded their flagship location at four hundred and thirty eight common street to add additional space next door at four hundred and thirty six common street and while doing so incorporated an adjoining door into revolve a woman's boutique consignment store forming belmont's first indoor market", "they have now opened a second location in belmont center at sixty three leonard street former the home of marmalade it's still the hub for curly girl designs owned by leigh stanley", "people are really excited about it remarked thomajan", "according to thomajan stanley approached her to discuss a merger between westcott and marmalade that would allow thomajan to fully transition into owning the store over a threemonth period", "leigh felt she found in westcott mercantile an owner and store that would continue to be the home for her curly girls designs products while maintaining a similar flavor and vibe that would carry on in the marmalade vision for its loyal fans and customers said thomajan", "thomajan said each of her belmont stores will be unique and only a small portion of products will be cross merchandise", "both will offer gift baskets for any occasion", "the cushing square store will continue to have more of an old style general store flavor", "we have been told that our customers feel like they're on vacation when they step inside the cushing square location said thomajan", "the belmont center location will have a more modern feminine appeal said czamanske with unique gifts fashion and home decor", "thomajan said they also plan to fully stock their british cadbury candy products in belmont center along with their fan favorite taffy and artisan old fashioned hard candies", "the two level belmont center store will offer whimsical garden and home decor on the lower level", "marmalade customers who didn't realize westcott was moving in were pleasantly surprised when they saw mary and lynne's familiar faces behind the register", "our customers are happy to know that this was a mutual merger done amicably between two local business owners", "this is why we did not close and reopen as something new", "it's a nice community based story said thomajan", "wescott mercantile was recently voted number one choice for gift shop in belmont and received silver recognition second place for gift shop in the region including belmont arlington watertown waltham allston cambridge brookline in the two thousand and sixteen reader's choice", "cindy", "a taste of thai food at patou by joanna tzouvelis", "there's no need to travel twenty four hours to thailand in order to taste the southeast asian country's food", "simply drive to patou at sixty nine leonard street in belmont center", "coowner dan tanabat of dedham is originally from thailand and has been managing the restaurant since it opened in two thousand and three", "patou is owned by the little lotus corporation which also owns siam lotus in norwood", "the word patou is derived from the sanskrit language used in buddhist prayer and means darling sweetheart or beloved said tanabat", "tanabat believes the secret to his restaurant's thirteen year success has been good food great service and consistency", "people who came here ten years ago can get the same curry things never change here said tanabat", "he takes pride in the low turnover of his staff of eight many of whom have been with him for more than seven years", "the atmosphere's casual and comfortable with upscale decor imported from thailand such as the lighting with silk pendants in the shape of hot air balloons and artifacts such as statues and a carven table", "tanabat describes the flavor of thai food as a balance between salty sweet sour and spicy", "many of the ingredients used are imported from thailand such as the curry spice and in the summer all the produce is purchased at belmont farmer's market", "tanabat's favorite item on the menu is the whole red snapper head and bone included in the chili sauce", "many people come here for that and not many thai restaurants carry this item he said", "tanabat said he has been told by many customers that patou's pad thai is the best they ever had", "currently his popular seasonal menu item is soft shell crab lightly battered and topped with mango pico de gallo available from april to september", "beef short ribs with curry are a popular year round menu item", "another seasonal favorite dessert item on the menu is sweet and sticky rice with fresh mango and cream of coconut", "patou also offers items on the menu for people allergic to nuts seafood gluten and protein", "they'll custom make dishes for people with allergies tanabat says", "the restaurant has a section here for private events such as surprise birthday parties showers or book clubs", "outdoor seating is also available in warmer months", "irene", "moose still on the loose by bram berkowitz laurie manjikian of pearl street said she first thought she was following a human", "others reportedly thought they saw a large deer or a horse but no it was a moose and a slippery one at that", "belmont's newest visitor evaded local and state authorities all last week", "and as of press time on tuesday june 7th was still on the loose", "the state's environmental police who had been hot on the moose's trail at the end of last week in hopes of tranquilizing the moose and getting it out of the populated area for safety reasons have called off their search", "letting it be and move into more forested areas and go on its way is the best thing that can happen said david stainbrook a deer and moose biologist with the state's division of fisheries and wildlife", "the best thing is to try and let it move on its way", "it might very well move north", "the female moose which stainbrook said is likely a yearling was first seen on the sidewalks of main and prescott streets in watertown just after five hundred am wednesday june 1st", "from there it was seen galloping through the streets of belmont making appearances throughout the day on waverley avenue trapelo road concord avenue juniper road by mass audubon habitat education center and wildlife sanctuary prospect street crestview road and woodfall road", "on june 2nd the moose was again sighted early in the morning on summit avenue and mill street", "and then later in the morning again on juniper road near mass audubon habitat education center and wildlife sanctuary", "the moose again made appearances late in the morning of june 3rd near robinwood road and was last seen as of press time on concord avenue at four hundred and forty five am saturday june 4th", "to me it was humongous because i thought it had to be a deer said manjikian", "the moose was estimated in the seven to nine foot range and manjikian's husband raffi said the moose could poke its head over the family's six foot fence", "soon after its first sighting on june 1st the moose had gained a large following with regional and national media outlets following the story", "a satirical twitter account called thebelmontmoose was created and had massed three hundred and seventy followers as of press time", "according to marian larson chief information and education officer at the state's division of fisheries and wildlife moose are more common in central and western massachusetts which is part of the reason the moose in belmont drew such a big reaction", "it's not very common for them to show up this close to boston she stated", "we don't have records per se on this but it's been a few years that i can remember a moose in this close to boston belmont animal control officer john maguranis said he thinks a moose in belmont is a result of all the recent development and demolishing of trees in the area which is destroying the habitats of wild animals", "to me that's the real story he said", "i'm not surprised at all we have a moose and wouldn't be surprised if we soon have a bear stainbrook said it's not unprecedented to see a moose within the i495 corridor but that this moose went a little further in than normal", "some of these interstates tend to limit their movement he said if they're traveling is taking place at three hundred am without a lot of traffic they might feel comfortable crossing the interstates stainbrook said the moose is most likely in this area because of natural dispersal", "although it is not exactly clear what triggers a moose to disperse or where this moose may have come from younger moose tend to leave their families and travel to new areas to prevent inbreeding with family members he said", "jonathan", "changes approved for zoning bylaws and single residence by jack kelly", "town meeting moderator mike widmer brought the second night of the annual town meeting to order at seven hundred pm monday evening at the chenery middle school", "the business at hand for the approximately three hundred town meeting members attending was segment b financial and budget articles", "most notable was the approval of article six concerning the construction of oversized dwellings in belmont's single residence c zoning districts", "after nearly four hours of presentations comments and debate", "the meeting concluded at approximately one thousand one hundred pm", "widmer opened the deliberation of article six by saying it is the single most complex issue of his nine year tender as town moderator", "article six contains proposed amendments to the existing bylaw on single residence c zoning among other stipulations the amendments would require applicants seeking to construct quote a very large addition or a new house on a nonconforming lot ie less than nine thousand square feet that increases gross floor area by more than thirty to obtain a special permit from the planning board", "it would also restrict the building height of a house to thirty feet to the mid point and thirty four feet to the highest point limit the placement and require screening of heating ventilation air conditioning equipment and propane tanks and limit the house to the average of the setbacks of the adjacent houses", "the article explicitly requires consideration of the impact on the neighborhood of the proposed construction", "article six is a direct result of the citizens petition approved by the town at the april two thousand and fifteen town meeting for a moratorium scheduled to expire on june 30th two thousand and sixteen on the construction of houses over thirty two feet high", "this petition spearheaded by steven pinkerton and peg callanan town meeting members precinct seven was a result of the alarm caused by the growing number of demolitions and construction of oversized houses in single residence c zoning districts", "planning board chairman elizabeth allison said we the planning board have worked hard to develop a revised single residence c zoning plan to address redevelopment in a fair and equitable fashion", "we worked closely with the citizen petitioners and the belmont residents who provided their inputs and ideas in the nine public hearings on this article", "before voting on the article six members deliberated on four recently proposed and contentious amendments to subsections of the article", "these included elimination of design as a consideration in the special permit review process amendment seven allowing the addition of a second story by right amendment eight installation placement of the air conditioning equipment and propane tank replacement five feet back", "in other words ten feet from the front of the house adjacent to the house and minimizing the visibility amendment two and installation five feet back ten feet from the front of the house amendment six", "the selectmen warrant committee and planning board announced they had voted unfavorable action on all four amendments", "cindy", "belmont high school alumni gives back by harry lane", "can emily cook ski soar flip and land on her feet she sure can", "cook is a freestyle skier and aerialist who is a three time olympian two thousand and six two thousand and ten two thousand and fourteen", "six time us champion and nine time world cup medalist including three gold", "born in belmont she began skiing when she was four years old started to compete in the sport of freestyle at fourteen and made the us freestyle team at seventeen", "she attended belmont high school carrabassett valley academy in maine and the university of utah", "she currently lives in park city utah", "one of her mantras is chin high work hard smile", "this attitude developed in her days as a young athlete", "as young gymnasts my teammates and i would stand in line chins held high tummies tucked in and big smiles on each of our faces", "whether we had just had our best performance were injured or had trouble at home we would do everything in our power while at practice and competition to hold this pose", "this armor protected us", "it kept us strong and resilient and was vital when obstacles got in our way positive things that come out of sport perseverance dedication and unwillingness to give up", "but oftentimes it's grit which has been so ingrained can prove challenging especially after retiring from sport", "as an athlete at the olympic level it's easy to define yourself by your sport", "when you retire who are you the challenges of major transition in life can be tough for all of us not just athletes", "what has cook been doing since she retired from skiing competitively perhaps her updated mantra should be chin high work hard smile and give back", "cook currently works for the audio brand skullcandy as their manager of sport and human potential", "the majority of her work takes place in skullcandy's high performance lab working with local and elite level athletes", "her role also led her to work closely with scientists who study alzheimer's disease and memory loss", "one of the things we've noticed is that people with alzheimer's have far more vitality happiness and just have a better day when they're listening to music", "although these research projects do help to contribute to the new product development process cook says the main goal is to drive an important part of skullcandy's overall mission as a company which is to encourage people to live life at full volume", "cook also manages programming for the nonprofit classroom champions which matches athletes with underserved classrooms around the country and coaches young athletes at the utah olympic park", "she's an ambassador for right to play and kids play international and has traveled to rwanda jordan and tanzania to help bring the life lessons of sport to the world's most disadvantaged children", "cook has also spent time on the board of the speedy foundation the philanthropic organization dedicated to understanding mental illness through education research and advocacy founded in honor of her friend and olympic medalist aerialist jeret speedy peterson", "and currently serves on the board of a us ski and snowboard association spending extra time coaching us development athletes or looking to breakthrough on the world cup circuit", "irene summer concerts begin june 22nd", "payson park music festival announced its 26th summer concert season at the corner of elm street and payson road", "the first concert this season battle of the bands is set for six hundred and forty five pm june 22nd", "this event is sponsored by belmont savings bank", "a concert will be offered every wednesday evening at approximately six hundred and forty five pm", "although start time in august is earlier due to less sunlight", "for young lemonade stand entrepreneurs the event offers the opportunity to manage the ppmf popsicle stand with eleven current openings for popsicle vendors", "the children will receive a stipend", "beginning july eight ppmf will produce four children's concerts at one thousand and thirty am fridays", "in case of rain the kiddy concerts will move inside the library", "in total the series produces between fifteen and sixteen concerts each summer", "all of this is sponsored without any financial burden to the town through the contributions of belmont neighbors and friends local businesses members of several town departments and the support of the belmont selectmen", "jonathan", "seeking fathers and sons for interviews", "this june and july the belmont story project will allow fathers and children to celebrate their relationship by recording an interview with each other", "the belmont story project is a local oral history project modeled after national public radio's storycorps", "belmont story project encourages belmont residents to record and share their stories preserving them for future generations", "to schedule a recording session at the belmont public library contact nancy mccolm at six billion one hundred and seventy nine million nine hundred and thirty two thousand eight hundred and seventy", "to schedule a session at the belmont media center contact patty mihelich at six billion one hundred and seventy four million eight hundred and forty two thousand four hundred and forty three", "for information go to belmontpubliclibrarynet", "listen to the recordings already contributed to the belmont story project go to soundcloudcombelmontstoryproject cindy", "fundraising underway for new veteran's memorial by joanna tzouvelis", "belmont does not have one location in town commemorating all belmont's veterans from all the wars since the civil war including the war with spain world war i world war ii the korean war vietnam war the persian gulf war the iraq war and the afghanistan war", "but in two thousand and seventeen the committee behind the efforts to create a belmont veteran's memorial at clay pit pond hopes to make the sight a reality", "the current veteran's memorial at clay pit pond is a small plaque mounted on a stone dedicated may 10th one thousand nine hundred and forty with a flagpole and is located near the corner of concord avenue and unsworth street", "working with the same designer as the conservation committee for the clay pit pond walking path the veterans memorial committee developed plans to repair the rock walls surrounding the flag and stone improve the path leading to and around the site and add individual granite stones noting each of the nine wars around the site with memorial benches inscribed with pavers with messages honoring veterans serving their country's wars and conflicts", "the project is estimated to cost two hundred and fifty thousand", "according to committee member angelo firenze former selectmen i had a lot of friends that went to vietnam and suffered", "this is a way of giving back to those who deserve to be recognized need to be recognized and should have recognition it's time for belmont to have a vet's memorial recognizing all the wars collectively in one location said firenze who served in the us army reserves", "his son peter is a lieutenant commander in the us navy", "his daughterinlaw paula is also a commander", "they're both currently stationed in washington dc", "brigadier general kevin ryan chairman of the veterans memorial committee said he hopes it will be a place where residents of all ages visit to play run jog walk or reflect", "he wants it to be as inclusive as possible and doesn't want people to feel left out", "the reason i'm passionate about this project is i want a place for future generations in belmont to go where they can reflect on the veterans and people who volunteer their service for their country", "those who served those who died an educational place said ryan", "the committee has raised about four thousand so far toward the design work", "they hope to raise the remainder of the funds through corporate sponsorship and brick sales", "a single brick is one hundred double is an one hundred and seventy five", "memorial benches are twenty five thousand", "if you are interested in purchasing a brick or sponsoring the project contact firenze at angelorfirenzegmailcom irene thank you for joining us for this episode of talking news"], "name": ["snafuinfinitytalking-news_061416/snafuinfinitytalking-news_061416/talking-news_061416_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_061416/snafuinfinitytalking-news_061416/talking-news_061416_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_061416/snafuinfinitytalking-news_061416/talking-news_061416_DOT_flac_00002.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_061416/snafuinfinitytalking-news_061416/talking-news_061416_DOT_flac_00003.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_061416/snafuinfinitytalking-news_061416/talking-news_061416_DOT_flac_00004.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_061416/snafuinfinitytalking-news_061416/talking-news_061416_DOT_flac_00005.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_061416/snafuinfinitytalking-news_061416/talking-news_061416_DOT_flac_00006.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_061416/snafuinfinitytalking-news_061416/talking-news_061416_DOT_flac_00007.flac", 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4683, 8120, 7470, 6393, 26170, 15530, 8120, 13693, 11400, 5220, 5480, 10890, 6830, 1270, 1503, 4910, 34553, 14933, 9033, 8110, 2120, 1795, 4558, 14933, 6533, 6740, 17350, 10787, 27216, 5507, 5663, 4970, 11520, 11730, 1610, 1851, 5909, 21720, 14000, 15570, 9150, 17787, 8083, 8057, 19976, 6330, 7360, 5923, 7780, 2523, 1210, 1820, 4010, 25747, 19806, 29283, 6093], "label": ["watch and listen to the talking news every day at twelve noon and six hundred pm on channel ninety six comcast xfinity and channel thirty verizon fios", "it can also be heard mondays and tuesdays at four hundred and thirty pm and wednesdays at one thousand two hundred and thirty pm on channel nine xfinity and channel twenty nine fios", "listen anytime on the bmc podcast network on soundcloud and itunes just search for the belmont media podcast network", "and now onto the talking news", "mission to protect preserve belmont's historic home by joanna k tzouvelis", "the issue preserving and protecting our community's historic resources requires substantial investment from governments and private donors", "the impact is that historic properties and archives of documents and objects are key to our community's identities", "has anyone ever wondered what the stately ornate mansions sitting on the hill across from town hall at the corner of concord avenue and pleasant street is thousands of people drive by this historic structure daily", "some may note a sign hanging in front of it that says belmont woman's club but still have no idea what the significance of the building is", "american artist winslow homer was the nephew of william flag homer who built the house at six hundred and sixty one pleasant street in belmont in one thousand eight hundred and fifty three as a summer residence", "winslow spent many of his summers at his uncle's house and much of his work depicts scenes of belmont people and places including his uncle's home according to belmont woman's club copresident wendy murphy", "if it wasn't for a group of women in one thousand nine hundred and twenty seven who pooled their funds together to purchase the one thousand eight hundred and fifty three william flag homer house the property would have been demolished by a developer who planned to tear it down and build seven lots on the land according to murphy", "murphy has done a lot of research on the property and found a letter dated march the seventh one thousand nine hundred and twenty seven from the belmont woman's club president belle chaffey which states the purchase price was twenty five thousand and of that businessmen of the town think we have made a good investment but more important still is the fact that the woman's club has done something for belmont in preserving an old landmark and retaining the dignity of its civic center", "to ensure a longterm protection of the home from demolition the belmont woman's club listed the home on the national register of historic places as part of the pleasant street historic district", "belmont historic district commission cochairman lauren meyer said the homer house is one of belmont's most significant historic buildings for its italianate architectural style and character and its historic association the belmont woman's club fundraisers the belmont woman's club has fundraisers throughout the year and relies heavily on its membership dues to keep up with the cost of just running the house which is twenty five to thirty thousand annually said murphy", "social and educational events are planned for members throughout the year", "the home is also available for the public to rent for private functions", "the community preservation act funds paid by belmont taxpayers annually are helping maintain historic properties like the one thousand eight hundred and fifty three william flag homer house", "in two thousand and fifteen the town meeting approved one hundred thousand of community preservation funding to be used for rehabilitating and restoring the homer house", "particularly restoration of the cupola and a replacement and restoration of its failed or missing elements", "the cupola project is almost completed and according to murphy there may be about fourteen thousand additional cpa funds that can be used to replace the chimney repair or replace the exterior molding which recently suffered water damage scrape and repaint peeling exterior trim and replace the bulkhead which is made a plywood and has deteriorated significantly over the years", "the next project that needs attention are the windows", "approximately one dozen of which need to be repaired or reglazed", "murphy said it would cost two thousand per window and plans to submit another application to the community preservation committee to fund this project", "murphy said they need at least four hundred thousand to get the house restored", "this would pay for repairs to the land from runoff damage and for the removal of trees and parking could be added to the right side of the driveway", "they would also like to purchase a handicap ramp to make the house accessible", "and now to my colleague clare", "thank you bob", "fire damages buildings two alarm fire breaks out in belmont center monday by joanna k tzouvelis", "a two alarm fire monday damaged several businesses on the corner of leonard street and alexander avenue in belmont center including bodytrio leon and company vanti nails and spa lavender wellness and massage and the law offices of karen goldenberg", "belmont fire chief david frizzell said the fire department got a call at approximately one hundred and forty five pm from someone at eighty four leonard street reporting there was an odor of smoke", "upon arrival frizzell said they discovered a fire inside the wall of vanti nail salon eighty six leonard street", "that fire had extended up into the walls and the roof area next to the vanti nail salon and above the nail salon he said", "bodytrio is located on the second floor at twenty one alexander ave", "leon de magistris owner of leon and company owns the building and lives on the top two floors", "frizzell said the majority of the damage is in the nail salon bodytrio and the de magistris residence", "de magistris said he was shopping at wholefoods in cambridge when he received a call from his son lieutenant darren de magistris about the fire", "his german shepherd lula was home when the fire broke out and was beginning to inhale the smoke but darren got her out in time", "de magistris will not be able to return to his home for at least two months due to the damage", "it was a little bit of stubborn fire", "it probably took about forty five minutes to an hour to make sure it was all out because we had to open up multiple walls roof structures and outside sheathing he said", "frizzell thinks the amount of time the businesses will need to be closed will range from a few days to as much as a month or more depending on the damage", "leonard street and pleasant street were temporarily closed between concord ave and leonard street to allow the crews to work", "mutual aid was provided by the waltham cambridge and arlington fire departments", "concern over damage the owners of the vanti nails and spa and lavender wellness massage were not at the scene", "there were no known injuries", "i'm really grateful no one was there", "it's monday and all of us usually have not a lot going on mondays said donna ognibene owner of bodytrio", "i think it's unusual that most of us were not in the building having to evacuate clients and get them to safety bodytrio has been in its belmont central location for ten years", "dr vatche seraderian of the seraderian dental group located on the second floor eighty four leonard street said someone in his office called the fire department when they noticed smoke coming out of the electrical outlets in their office", "as he and his staff left he said they saw smoke coming out of the hvac vents that served the nail salon next door", "now here's max", "thank you clare", "the impact of a debt exclusion by joanna k tzouvelis", "town treasurer floyd carmen has had many inquiries about the debt exclusion for the belmont high school building committee's proposed grade seven to twelve high school building project from taxpayers who want to know how it will affect their pocket books", "last week he prepared a financing plan to help give people an idea of the financing and the excuse me cumulative real estate tax impact and shared it with the citizen herald", "on november 6th belmont voters will be asked to approve a debt exclusion of two hundred and ninety five million to help fund the grade seven through twelve high school project", "the massachusetts school building authority msba will reimburse the town for eighty million of the eligible costs", "the net to the taxpayer is two hundred and fifteen million", "town treasurer floyd carmen gives estimates of the annual cost of the new high school to taxpayers at one hundred and eighty one per one hundred thousand of a home's assessed value", "the borrowing will be done in phases over five years and the real estate tax impact would occur in the year of the financing", "carmen says if the debt exclusion passes he would borrow eighty five million at an interest rate of four for thirty years in march two thousand and nineteen", "this would add six hundred and seventy four to the annual real estate tax bill for the average single family home in belmont assessed at one million three thousand seven hundred and fifty", "in two thousand and twenty carmen said he would borrow another eighty five million at forty five for thirty years", "this would add one thousand three hundred and ninety to the homeowner's annual real estate tax bill for a home assessed at one million three thousand seven hundred and fifty", "in march two thousand and twenty four he would borrow plus or minus forty five million at five for twenty eight years", "the amount depends on the reimbursement the town receives from the msba for eligible costs", "this would bring the total to one thousand eight hundred and ten added to the homeowner's real estate tax bill for a single family home assessed at one million three thousand seven hundred and fifty", "the homeowner would be paying this additional amount annually until two thousand and forty eight", "all of these figures are estimates and assumes the high school budget the project is on budget and will get reimbursed for all the eligible msba costs", "carmen also believes there will be a need for a town operating override in two thousand and twenty one and possibly another one in two thousand and twenty five which includes the operating cost of the new school growing school population and other town capital project needs", "on top of the debt exclusion we'll have to have another infusion because this is a brand new facility", "the growth isn't going to stop because if you build it they will come", "if you increase your capacity there will be more students coming into the system", "that's just the nature of the beast he said", "carmen said he doesn't know what the additional costs will be to operate the new grade seven to twelve building if the debt exclusion is approved and the building is constructed", "he estimates it will cost an additional one to two million per year for the additional staff", "you're looking at a debt exclusion in november", "taxpayers will start feeling that in their two thousand and twenty real estate tax bills", "we will be able to stave off an operating override for a year or so but there will be one in two thousand and twenty one for four to five million he said", "carmen believes the rising real estate taxes won't end with the operating override in two thousand and twenty one if it passes", "he said there most likely will be a need for a second operating override in two thousand and twenty five carmen said all future financial decisions need approval by the board of selectmen", "carmen says if the town increases its parking spaces for commuters it would help stretch out some of the need for operating overrides", "he said commuters would pay one hundred and fifty a month for a parking space if there was a garage built in belmont perhaps at the current site of the municipal light building on concord ave when it is no longer needed by belmont light the new parking meters in belmont center have generated additional revenue for the town but monthly passes for commuters would generate more revenue said carmen", "currently there are only ten monthly commuter passes available in belmont center for people who take the mbta commuter rail", "carmen said there aren't more available because the claflin street lot parking is reserved for shoppers in belmont center over to you bob", "thanks max", "belmont light to celebrate public power week", "belmont light will join more than two thousand other public power utilities to celebrate the benefits of hometown communityowned and operated electric utilities during during public power week on october 7th through the 14th", "this year marks the 32nd annual public power week sponsored by the american public power association", "to celebrate the benefits of public power belmont light representatives will be at the belmont farmer's market on october 11th and will sponsor an icecream social at one hundred and fifteen pm on october 12th at the belmont senior center at two hundred and sixty six beach street", "there are more than two thousand communityowned electric utilities in the us and in five us territories serving over forty nine million people and more than twenty eight million business customers", "some of america's largest cities including los angeles that would be los angeles san antonio seattle and orlando operate publiclyowned electric utilities", "public power week provides utilities like belmont light the opportunity to remind taxpayers that local residents make an important decision about their public power services said general manager chris roy", "that's because public power utilities are consumerowned and operated and provide reliable responsive notforprofit electric service", "we're accountable to the people we serve and are committed to serving rate payers keeping rates low and contributing to the economic developments and sustainability of the community belmont light employees are committed to providing reliable safe power and service to all of our rate payers and have been doing that since one thousand eight hundred and ninety eight roy said", "we're proud that belmont light has been part of the community for one hundred and twenty years and we plan to provide the same level of quality reliable electric service to our community for many years to come in addition to public power week customers of public power utilities have access to programs and services not usually available to customers of private electric utilities including conservation services appliance rebates and other energy saving incentives", "and now over to clare", "thank you bob", "meet the new parttime belmont high school assistant principal by joanna k tzouvelis", "belmont high school special education teacher michael bruno has a new role this year as the parttime assistant principal at belmont high school", "the belmont citizen herald recently asked bruno some questions to help readers get to know them and him a little better", "here are the responses he sent via email", "what are you looking forward to most about your new parttime role as assistant principal at bhs as i work with students families and staff this year i most look forward to learning from the experiences the members of these groups bring to the bhs community", "i strive to be a thoughtful listener and remain open to various perspectives in order to use new knowledge to make wellinformed decisions that will have a positive impact on the already incredible culture at belmont high", "what do you think your greatest challenges will be i'm quickly learning that there are many components of this new position that pull focus away from the student", "at the end of the day we're all here for the students and i hope to be able to stay focused on them as the first priority", "i'll be moving from a caseload of twenty five students as a special educator to being responsible for over four hundred 9th and 12th graders", "developing systems to ensure i remain responsive to these students and their families will be challenging work", "thankfully our highly qualified administrative team and exceptional staff will provide support while i work through this learning curve", "the building project will continue moving forward this year", "part of the attraction of this position was the opportunity to be involved in the many important decisions that will need to be made about the physical space of bhs and the vision dash instructional models moving forward", "this work will not be easy but thoughtful decisions made at this point in the process will have a positive impact on the school experience we want for our students for many years", "what do you think is important for parents and students to know about you i've been with the belmont public schools for fourteen years in a variety of roles including wrestling coach tutor middleschool teacher bea membership chairperson high school teacher lead special education teacher and now assistant principal", "through these jobs i've experienced the belmont community from several different perspectives and know this will help me as an assistant principal", "now here's max", "thanks clare", "committee answers building questions grade seven to twelve building proposal explained by joanna k tzouvelis", "as the vote for the debt exclusion to fund the proposed grade seven to twelve high school building is less than six weeks away the belmont citizen herald thought it would be helpful for readers to get answers to some questions which may not be available on the building committee's website", "here are the answers to six questions provided by the belmont high school building committee which were sent via email to the citizen herald", "how much is a building of this size going to cost and operate and will the town be able to afford the operating costs of such a building the school department budget has increased over the last few years to support increases in enrollment", "we will continue to increase budgets as we grow", "higher staffing levels are needed with or without a new building", "facilities and utilities costs are still estimates at this time", "this building will cost much less to heat and cool and power per square foot than any other belmont building", "how will students be safe in a building of this size and scope the belmont public schools have established a climate of safety", "there are rules in place and professional staff who work to ensure students safety each day", "what is another example of a grade seven to twelve that would be comparable to what is being proposed in belmont it could be anywhere in the country", "does a school this size exist anywhere else billerica duxbury scituate and many other regional schools", "please see the photo of spreadsheet at the current msba projects", "how will students in the lower grades in the new building be kept separate from the students in the higher grades will the middle school configuration be seventh and eighth and high schools still be ninth through 12th how is the building being designed to keep the upper and lower grade separate with lower grades on the belmont seven to twelve school campus careful work will be done to ensure adequate separation between the younger and older students", "some strategies may be employed to achieve this that include physical separation of classroom wings adjusting school schedules such that older and younger students arrive and depart at different times and carefully controlling the flow of students through communal areas", "additionally there are many exciting educational opportunities that exist when seventh and eighth grades are included on a high school campus", "the opportunities for thoughtful educational connections between grades could include mentoring programs and other crossgrade learning opportunities as well as access to shared robotics labs makerspaces and other educational areas", "after the fourth grade is moved to chenery what will be done with the extra space at the four elementary schools at this time it is anticipated the classrooms will be used for their primary purpose", "due to overcrowding alternative spaces are currently being used as classrooms", "ensuring that students are situated in spaces meant to be classrooms is a priority", "with the fourth grade moved out of the elementary schools available classroom space will be utilized to provide differentiated educational space for programming computer art et cetera", "available space will also be used to support special education ell programming and afterschool programs", "over to you bob", "thank you max", "belmont votes to limit the number of marijuana retailers by joanna k tzouvelis", "the overall results of the special town election on september 25th were six thousand three hundred and thirty four for limiting the number of adultuse recreational marijuana retailers to two which is twenty of the number of licenses issued for retail sale of alcoholic beverages not to be drunk on the premises where sold and three thousand six hundred and sixty six against limiting the number of adultuse recreational marijuana establishments", "voter turnout was one thousand eight hundred and twenty two with three thousand one hundred and sixty nine out of seventeen thousand three hundred and ninety two registered voters braving the rain to have their voices heard", "opponents of limiting the number of marijuana retailers only one in precinct four by just one vote one hundred and twenty two to one hundred and twenty three", "the other seven precincts voted two to one in favor of eliminating the number of marijuana retailers", "and now on to clare", "thank you bob", "campaign against debt exclusion formed by joanna k tzouvelis", "safe schools neighborhood a campaign to ensure safe routes to the new belmont high school building filed its form for campaign financing with the town clerk's office on september 20th at three hundred and fifty nine pm", "two goden street residents are listed as the chairmen debra talanian and amy tananbaum", "tananbaum however resigned from her position as treasurer of the campaign on september twenty four", "the specific issues listed by the committee are current site design for new high school does not adequately address issues of safety for students walking biking being dropped off or for vehicular traffic", "in an email to the citizen herald tananbaum wrote she included her name on the paperwork due to the high frustration with the current situation", "while the leaders of the school building committee and other town committees have spent an extraordinary amount of time hearing suggestions from many stakeholders in the neighborhoods they have not committed to any actions that will ensure that the four schools neighborhood the area between belmont high wellington burbank and chenery is safe for walkers and bikers wrote tananbaum", "she stated that concerned neighbors have written letters to committee members and the newspaper", "i attended scores of meetings and provided ideas proven in other towns", "they have listened respectfully but taken no action whatsoever", "i have since spoken with town leaders who indicate that they are committed to implementing some of these ideas and thus have requested that my name be removed at this time", "i would like to become an unconditional supporter of the new school building project and could do so as soon as town leaders share a set of commitments in writing she said", "now here's max", "thank you clare", "if bhs project moves forward alternate pool needed by joanna k tzouvelis", "if the debt exclusion to fund the new grade seven to twelve high school building in belmont passes on november 6th and the construction project moves forward the higginbottom pool will be out of commission for about two years from the spring of two thousand and nineteen to the spring of two thousand and twenty one while the roof is removed and a new level is added onto the building", "when parents of swimmers at the belmont high school swim teams who participate in the belmont dolphins recreation program and the belmont aquatics team that's heard this news they immediately became concerned", "where would the students practice and have meets while the higginbottom pool is out of commission according to june howell recreation department office manager approximately four hundred and fifty swimmers who use the pool through the recreation and bats program will be affected", "she said the recreation department uses the pool every week night throughout most of the school year either for dolphin prepractice public swimming or both", "on saturdays it is used for swimming lessons including a sport special programs organized for recreation time clinics and public swimming and on sundays for public swim howell said she has been actively seeking an alternate pool to be used for belmont's recreation programs", "i have called dozens of schools clubs and communities to see if there are hours available but i've had no success to date", "i will continue to reach out to any place i can see that has a suitable size pool she said in an email to the citizen herald", "if howell is unable to find an alternate pool space she said the recreation department's aquatics program will have to be suspended until the new high school is built at the september 17th selectmen meeting town administrator patrice garvin said she is committed to helping the recreation department find an alternate pool", "athletic director jim davis has assured them that he will find another pool for students to practice", "this could potentially mean early morning practice times possibly at five hundred am at an offsite location", "as of press time davis has not found an alternative pool temporary pool option", "bill lovallo chairman of the belmont high school building committee said the design and construction team explored a temporary pool option", "however the cost would be two to three million", "and back to you bob", "thanks max", "belmont high school building project video released", "belmont high school building committee recently announced the release of a belmont media center production belmont high school today the video includes firsthand accounts from belmont high school teachers and administrators about the impact of deteriorating building conditions overcrowding and facultyrelated limitations on students and teachers", "the belmont media center and video producer lucas tragos did a fantastic job of depicting the building conditions at belmont high school and detailing the belmont high school building project process said bill lovallo chairman of the building committee", "we are incredibly grateful for the time and resources belmont media center under the leadership of jeff hansel has put into this video and we are pleased that the belmont community will have the opportunity to view the project story through such an effective medium along with my colleagues clare and max we thank you for listening to the talking news and hope you've enjoyed the show", "we will return next week for another edition of local news happenings around belmont"], "name": ["snafuinfinitytalking-news_100218/snafuinfinitytalking-news_100218/talking-news_100218_DOT_flac_00000.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_100218/snafuinfinitytalking-news_100218/talking-news_100218_DOT_flac_00001.flac", "snafuinfinitytalking-news_100218/snafuinfinitytalking-news_100218/talking-news_100218_DOT_flac_00002.flac", 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