{"id": "926532e17a3e-0", "text": "you are either in the prime minister's house and the day you leave the prime minister's house very often you are in adiala jail he has used uh Islam as a political tool I would rather have a dumb guy like Imran than an intelligent guy or a cunning guy like jawl haq I don't see uh you know why I want somebody who makes Pakistan a strong prosperous country you know we are the same people you know all that nonsense which happens and then this this familiarity politicians the pakistanis are in a very bad spot right now partly because now the Chinese are no longer even observing diplomatic niceties with them Pakistan's case you know they have this belief that they are too important to failures they can't reform their own system I want somebody who divides the pakistanis like Imran has done I want somebody who destroys their economy like Imran has done I want somebody who destroys their foreign policy like Imran has done Namaste Jahin welcome to", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-1", "text": "like Imran has done Namaste Jahin welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today we shall discuss Pakistan I know many of you will say that why Pakistan we should be focusing on China China is our main adversary and not Pakistan but let me tell you Pakistan is a potent military threat to India even when it's down and out so today my guests are super special because they know all there is to know about Pakistan I have with me tilak deveshar and sushant sareen two domain Specialists who have appeared on the podcast before tilak devishar is an author of three books on Pakistan and is currently a member of the Indian National Security Advisory board he worked in the research and Analysis Wing before superannuating and sushant Serene have appeared on several panels discussing terrorism and Pakistan sushant is with the Observer Research Foundation he's written extensively on Pakistan and appeared on TV debates sushant is an avid user of social media and his take on India's strategic challenges", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-2", "text": "social media and his take on India's strategic challenges is sharp and insightful but before I begin my conversation with my two guests here is a short primer on what happened in Pakistan in the past week I know many of you would be aware of the events that are unfolding out there but for those who don't know here is a short primer Pakistan's former prime minister and legendary cricketer Imran Khan has been arrested he's expressed apprehension that he will be assassinated he's also warned the people of Pakistan that the country is hurtling towards economic and political chaos and in the week before that the foreign minister of Pakistan bilawal Bhutto zardari was in India to participate in a conference of the Shanghai cooperation organization the first Pakistani foreign minister to visit India since 2011. as expected the SEO faded into the background and all media attention was on bilateral ties India and Pakistan and needless to say the visit did not not go well though Bhutto has claimed it to", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-3", "text": "not go well though Bhutto has claimed it to be a success there was some sharp takedown by the Indian foreign minister so now let's head to the conversation with sushant Serene and tilak deveshar thank you sushant thank you tilak I hope I have your permission to address you by your first names and uh it's good to have you both back and in you know in our production jargon is known as RPGs your Repeat Performance guest not the other RPG I want to know one thing first yes sushant I am sitting with a top notch journalist and I'm sitting with a top knob spy and you have picked this deal for doing a podcast on Pakistan did you know in advance that Imran is going to be arrested the two of you I knew conspiracy who didn't know he's the only person I'm wearing a black shirt because I protest the arrest of Imran Khan this man has always been saying in case you don't follow his social media sushant is like always no", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-4", "text": "follow his social media sushant is like always no the best thing to have to India is Imran Khan becoming prime minister of Pakistan not him sitting in a wheelchair is the best thing that has happened to us he does not even accept your agenda Pakistan okay viewers listeners written four books and not three books he's already finished the fifth one it's on Afghanistan your books okay backyard but fifth Province okay let's get to the meat of the story uh that uh the podcast was supposed to be about bilaval and now it's turned out to be about a Imran Khan did you expected both of you that Imran Khan would be arrested what do you think Mr desha he was waiting to be arrested I mean you know this was on the cards I think he's been picked up in 120 cases he's been escaping by the skin of his teeth every time he gets bail in six Bale in eight Bale and you know he saw the Judiciary being extremely kind his crowd", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-5", "text": "saw the Judiciary being extremely kind his crowd supporters came all over and prevented the police from entering his house today so this was done to happen any time whether he gets disqualified first or whether he gets arrested first over both are going to happen today that's why the Rangers there were so many of them and the Rangers were a stronger Force than the police so they made sure that they're not going to get sidetracked by any police or any crowds therefore they just whisked him away in that van and people say that he was being pushed and all that I think the Ranger's idea was to get this guy out of this place and take him to a location where his supporters didn't do not connect but uh everybody knows do you think that it was wrong on the part of imran's supporters to prevent it because look we all know what happened to zadari in prison we know what happened to nawash Sharif in prison what happened with", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-6", "text": "nawash Sharif in prison what happened with Bhutto and with the others right I mean let's let's not talk go there let's talk about the brutality which zardari has faced is I think his tongue was cut or something like that right what happened with uh Nawaz Sharif and with Benazir with so many of them I mean I can she was assassinated zial haq was killed zulfikar Ali Bhutto was assassinated uh before that was shot dead so you know we can go into an entire list of what happens with former Prime Ministers and presidents they go foreign that is that you are either in the prime minister's house and the day you leave the prime minister's house very often you are in radialis jail so they Shuffle between those two places it sometimes there is an interagnum like in imran's case that you know it's taken a few months almost in here that he's going to jail but Shahid went to jail before that reduces Sharif has", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-7", "text": "went to jail before that reduces Sharif has gone to jail benezid just escaped which he went into Exile went to jail so jail and adyala jail and prime minister's house is power for the course for these guys Imran hasn't gone to adiala not yet not yet there will be a time for that also so he's been taken to Rahul Pindi I don't know where he's been taken he won't be taken to jail they have to produce him before the courts then they'll have to take his remand but the fact that he's been taken to Pindi and nowhere else yeah I mean Pindi is significant isn't it but Prince doesn't mean does not mean GHQ well what else does it mean okay I mean pretty is completely no GHQ but Pindi also means that he for those who don't know uh about uh you know there are some uh you know overseas Indians who also watch the podcast who don't understand these uh complexities sometimes and the Indians are watching", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-8", "text": "these uh complexities sometimes and the Indians are watching it get very irritated but to just to explain what does Rawalpindi mean Pindi is something that we call what does Rawalpindi mean what does jail in Rawalpindi and what is GHQ the the all-encompassing influence so so Rahul Bindi is basically where the General headquarters of the Pakistan Army is it's the it's the Hub of the Pakistan Army uh apara is in Islamabad which is the headquarters of the isi Islam when people talk as Islamabad and Pindi what they are talking about is the where the civilians are based which is uh Islamabad and Pindi is when they when they want to use shorthand or euphemisms for the Pakistan Army they talk about Pindi but in this particular case he has been taken to Pindi uh and I don't know what is exactly is the case under which he has been booked but I think he's been taken to Pindi because it must have something to do with the Punjab government", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-9", "text": "must have something to do with the Punjab government Punjab police because if you are going to show him arrested in Pindi and you are going to produce him before a court in Pindi then the jurisdiction is of one of the Lahore high court and then of the local Punjab Administration unlike if you pick him up in Islamabad and present him in court in Islamabad then it becomes the uh Islamabad high court and they they act the the administration of Islamabad which is like the national capital territory so the case is al-qadir trust which is that big dubious Tycoon was a case in the UK and they recovered 190 million pounds for him and added it over to the Pakistan government who they British authorities in a serious crimes case or something Imran Khan returned that money to malikrias after having voted from the UK in lieu of that malikrias allotted him a huge plot of land in which he built a university Mass abused plot of land and only 34 students in the University", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-10", "text": "plot of land and only 34 students in the University obviously it was a kickback and then his wife Bushra baby you know she sort of bargained to get a ring it was a famous diamond ring she got from Malik riyaz you know so this was insisting on five carats not three characters this is a quid pro quo so in that case he didn't get bail and he was charged by this for the national accountability Bureau and I think it is this particular case full details are not available it is this case that he is being picked up on but so initially I tried to keep a track of the cases but then there are so many 121 I don't even know which case he's booked in anymore and what the status that was what he came right Mr Clean he said he wanted to clean up the system that there was so much corruption and he was the quintessential like what we call in India the Ahmad he was the common man you know who didn't come from some political family", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-11", "text": "man you know who didn't come from some political family like the bhutos and like Sharif Sharif Kurt of course they say that he's not actually a political family he's made himself into a political family but you know he he didn't come with all that baggage he came as a cricket icon and then he's become part of the system the very same system which he was fighting against isn't it yeah also is he even even before that even though he presented himself Mr Clean look at his party PTI has got funding from prohibited sources that's another case that is going one sources and Here sign checks is fully aware of the fact that this money was not legislative legitimate money which a political party should have got so you know even before he came into Power his uh party is Tainted but how do you then explain his popularity with the people you know he's he's by far the most popular politician in Pakistan today somehow he's it's like Teflon nothing sticks as far as uh you know even", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-12", "text": "nothing sticks as far as uh you know even if by law he's broken the law people don't believe that you can see the outpouring yeah so I think there are a couple of reasons for his popularity one is he has a very strong support among the middle class in the lower middle class lawyers crazy officials but one of the reasons is that he speaks good English so uh because these people are not part of the traditional system you know they don't vote a biradari system the traditional political parties professionals okay so they have veered towards the PTI then the youth you see the youth is about 44 percent you know of the population between the age of 18 to 35 voting population they have moved in a very big way to Imran Khan he has a massive social media sense and presence no other party even gets the social media organization with Imran Khan has built up and then you know his own persona when he speaks he can be speaking a total lie people tend to believe it", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-13", "text": "speaking a total lie people tend to believe it and they feel he said right even if he breaks misquotes a religious saying people say anything the way he appears in court masses of supporters you know he doesn't come if the hearing is 11 o'clock as if he's a movie star and the judges are waiting for him he'll just take a U-turn or you know he even when he's caught look at the sex tapes look at the kind of money favors that he's given to his friends his wife's corruption all these have been documented proved and shown to the people it makes no difference what's your take why is he uh so popular sushant look I think one I I think you need a sociologist to figure this out on how Cults are formed because what he has is not political support what he has is a cult right because for all the reasons that Mr diveshwar is saying that you know the fact that he's been found out the fact that he has he has done complete 180", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-14", "text": "the fact that he has he has done complete 180 degree turns from what he was in opposition what so for example uh just uh yesterday some people started you know giving out how this fellow has been had been saying that look if you are taking pot shots of the army you are damaging the country and stuff like that you know you are destroying the morale if you're targeting the Army Chief you are destroying the morale of the forces and you know stuff like that he said this now that he's in opposition he's doing exactly what he was raving and renting against and his supporters lap it up they lapped it up then they lap it up now right now this is a kind this is something that no matter what you say no matter what you do no matter how many u-turns you make we love you I think this is a psychological disorder it if there's nothing rational about it right yeah now in terms of his competence he's proved himself to be utterly incompetent as an", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-15", "text": "proved himself to be utterly incompetent as an administrator he's proved himself to be corrupt uh he has proved himself to uh be a megalomaniac right uh he has he has cultivated favorites to whom he has bestowed all sorts of favors so he has done everything uh which the others have done in some cases at a bigger scale and yet because he has that cult everybody seems to swear by him but the important thing is uh where is that cult coming from and my own sense is that what is different between Imran and other leaders in Pakistan is the support base that he is drawing now in his case the support base is actually the upper middle class and the upper classes in Punjab these are the most well connected people uh you know just a couple of days back apparently a serving brigadier's wife was arrested because of you know she was an Imran Khan supporter this is a serving army officers wife who was picked up whereas he is he's say he's taking on", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-16", "text": "up whereas he is he's say he's taking on the Army he's taking on the establishments but the wives are supporting families he has huge support in the families serving and retired support of the Judiciary the reason one of the tapes that are going to come out has come out is the wife of the Chief Justice yeah talking to Imran Khan and says that and the other so that is the level of support that he has so now you know this is what I can't understand because like uh tilak you says that you said that it's the lower class the lower middle class the middle class and the youth you are saying it's not just them it's the upper middle class and the middle class so basically everybody no so that means these are the people who are being ignored by the traditional you see the traditional Pakistan parties are feudal parties look at the PPP okay you know they have a huge look at in Punjab you know yeah traditional parties the biradari thejat you know that", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-17", "text": "traditional parties the biradari thejat you know that kind of a thing okay the urban classes or the people who feel neglected who can't fit into this kind of a traditional political mold he he's tapped into them through his own personal through massive social media look at his social media acumen you know he has uh this today he had pre-recorded his arrest and what the people should do he's incited people to come out and protest massively but he's also said I saw that uh so he says that he calls The Establishment he says and I'd rather die than live in a Pakistan uh which is ruled by them this is another thing that he keeps repeating many times over that he is going to live or die in Pakistan whatever it is alluding to the others who have left and gone no no that is one part of it but there is another part to it I think a lot of his cluster and his bravado comes from the fact that he actually did not think that he would be picked up", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-18", "text": "actually did not think that he would be picked up I think yesterday for the first time he must have got a hint because he although he'd crossed that red line earlier as well uh I think the tweets which he did yesterday where he was directly named the uh one of the top is General isi guys uh he named him and he implicated him you know accused him of you know planning to murder him and stuff like that and then the Army the ispr came out with a strong very strong treatment and then of course you know the others who are sucking up to the is uh the the Army Shabbat Sharif and the others they kind of piled on and you know kind of a thing I think that kind of crossed the red line so maybe he was a little tentative today but otherwise he has felt that he's Untouchable that the Army can't touch him right and I think I remember 2007 you know this is just on the day that Musharraf had done this is in November I", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-19", "text": "that Musharraf had done this is in November I was there in Lahore that night and on that particular night I was called for a dinner I won't name names whose house it was but one of Imran Khan's closest Associates and a family member of his was also out there and Imran had been picked up and uh he had escaped actually he had escaped he was in hiding and these guys were saying they were all discussing they knew I'm an Indian of course but they were all discussing uh how in how to orchestrate Imran Khan's surrender so I said but why does he want to surrender so they were shocked that no no he has to surrender I said why you know he should remain in hiding and make a monkey of the regime uh but he was desperate to surrender and then when he surrendered he was first man handled by the jamate islami Goons then he was handed over to the cops he went to jail within four days he", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-20", "text": "cops he went to jail within four days he was screaming and shouting and you know crying and he wanted out because he couldn't handle jail so this Bluff and Bluster which is coming from him is just that once they start administering him the treatment I think Nawaz sharif's daughter was probably far braver You know despite being a woman in a country like Pakistan being mistreated you know they putting cameras on her giving her no privacy yeah all of that she went through it and you know she's very feisty I'm not sure if this guy can handle this plus he has other problems if he doesn't get his fixes up in the evening he's climbing the wall okay this is another thing that they say about Imran Khan that you know there are so many stories about Imran Khan is he purely a drug addict he said we can look after him very well in jail give him all the Comforts but we can't give him the one thing that he wants so he's", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-21", "text": "him the one thing that he wants so he's going to have withdrawal symptoms in jail absolutely yeah and he won't have hair dye to die and he won't get Kali Dal anyone he won't get okay that is another story in itself okay so I'm not going into the details Family Channel so I'm not going into the details of what Imran Khan does with kalidal I suggest you please Google and see what happens and what reham Khan his ex-wife had to say about his Fascination for kalidal um so let's get on uh as I said about uh Imran I've been to his house uh to interview him once and I was kind of you know yes I've been there and uh you know the the people around him are all these youngsters and they don't they don't sound like pakistanis they sound like from some other planet America I mean this was or more than a decade ago when he was just about you know getting into politics but he was he was it was quite clear", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-22", "text": "politics but he was he was it was quite clear that there was an agenda have it all those kids who were there around very attractive young people around him this cult figure phenomenon is extremely important because what happens is that people have got completely blinded by his personality they they don't believe anything negative that comes out of him or even about zardaari Mr Ten Percent all these things stuck but nothing seems to stick on Imran Khan a strong social media presence you know in today's world the youth listen to social media they listen to his tweets listen to his video podcast and he is created this Machinery of people who saturation I mean you're in the media you know the importance of social media the PPP and PT and the pmln are no match for this a lot of these people are dual Nationals you know people who surround him they really don't have the stakes in Pakistan so that is one and the fact that because of his popularity because of his cult he has started believing that", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-23", "text": "because of his cult he has started believing that he's above the law he started believing that whatever he says is the gospel truth the fellow who was lynched for blasphemy two days ago in mardan yeah he was a PTA Maulana who said that I no he I believe he said that what I feel for uh Imran is what I feel for the prophet yeah that was enough for him to be lynched can you imagine yeah can you imagine I mean he was a Maulana you should have known what he was saying he didn't think he was saying anything wrong on the spot he was trampled over beaten and killed yeah and he has tapped into this religious thing also very well you know every now and then he comes up with he tries to portray himself you know one day in I remember one speech and I was shocked that the religious parties didn't pick it up he said that uh I think the prophet mentioned that he is very popular even amongst the families and people", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-24", "text": "is very popular even amongst the families and people in the families worship him a lot and he said look at me all the Army families are my supporters and even making that kind of a comparison and nobody picked up on this and said what because of his popularity because in every speech of his uh whenever he starts talking about Islam he always tries to draw some analogy albeit oblique uh with the prophet uh and then of course he has used uh Islam as a political tool and you remember when he was coming for that long march uh in in March our containers one of his Sidekicks was telling him now sir it is time to put some Islamic touch give it an Islamic touch so then he started talking about Islam and a former speaker I won't hold that against him because I've seen that happen even in in India when you feel that the ground then he starts yeah but then uh let's bring this to the Indian context uh you have written so often and you've said this in several", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-25", "text": "written so often and you've said this in several TV uh appearances sushan that he's the best thing to happen to India why do you see this do you really want Imran as a prime minister again who's like totally unhinged yeah but look who does he damage he doesn't damage us he damages Pakistan Pakistan is not a friendly country it's a hostile country uh it's it's always been an amical to India's interests uh and if they if they elect a leader and swear by a leader who destroys them what better for me so uh when you look at his economic policies when you look at his uh his foreign policy how he alienated every single one of Pakistan's friends whether it was the Saudis whether it was the Americans whether it was the Chinese he alienated everybody right uh what can be better than that for me and I think Mr Modi was smart because although they they had made the Outreach much earlier to the gulf but I think this they were smart that they doubled down", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-26", "text": "think this they were smart that they doubled down on it and look at the relations that India has with many of the gulf countries where Pakistan had a run of the place the OIC earlier no not not UIC but I'm not because OIC has you know countries like turkey and others who are rabidly anti-india and pardon my language on this but I I feel very strongly about it my producer loves it no I I feel very strongly about turkey because the Turks have been sponsoring a lot of trouble in Kashmir yeah they have been in they have been instigating trouble in Kashmir they have been carrying out a lot of that slick propaganda campaign comes from Turkey so they have they have never been nice to us and I see no reason why I should be nice to them but the best of relations that we've had with turkey you know uh there was this uh one uh visit of the foreign secretary when I was there I think it was conversible if I'm not mistaken", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-27", "text": "I think it was conversible if I'm not mistaken we're covering it in Istanbul and they were like you know those foreign you know that that distinction they make that these are our brothers Blood Brothers but India can be a friend so for a friend you can cut off at any point of time like in Bhai The Blood Brothers you can't yes brothers are actually probably worse look at Google history mughalsword basically Turks in some ways that is not a problem but but on the most you know most seriously I I feel very strongly about turkey so it's not OIC what I'm talking about is the Arab states okay the UAE uh Oman you look at Saudi Arabia Pakistan had a run of the place not Imran alienated all of them guys are he's really dumb in something from all of that perspective I don't see uh you know why I want somebody who makes Pakistan a strong prosperous country I want somebody who divides the pakistanis like Imran has done I want", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-28", "text": "the pakistanis like Imran has done I want somebody who destroys their economy like Imran has done I want somebody who destroys their foreign policy like Imran has done I want somebody who destroys uh you know the Primacy of the army the only institution that had kept the country together I want somebody like Imran who has done that he has destroyed the Army I want somebody who destroys their security by sucking up to the Taliban and saying that they have broken the shackles of slavery he is my dream if I was in the job tilak devish were handled I would have wanted somebody like him to become Prime Minister I would have sponsored somebody like him to be prime minister of Pakistan so he's an answer to your dreams before you get on to your point I want to know this that why didn't raw sponsor Imran Khan to be prime minister of Pakistan I mean you're not even W doesn't do these things the ISR was already doing a good job so why should", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-29", "text": "ISR was already doing a good job so why should I this was a joint venture of sorts right so you know I agree with what he says please ignore it he's just like kind of just brushes off he will not say whatever so I I agree with what sushant is saying about it that eyesight did a better job than raw could have done why should we when they're already you know as Napoleon said If a person is uh you know committing suicide why should I stop them okay but I agree with sushant about all the nakunas all the weaknesses of Imran Khan and what he's doing to Pakistan is Excel except I would rather have an intelligent enemy rather than a loose cannon like Imran Khan on the other side because you don't know this guy is unpredictable you don't know how he's going to act so a smarter enemy is better than a foolish enemy that is the only caveat I have otherwise I agree with him 110 what he's done to Pakistan since 47 no", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-30", "text": "him 110 what he's done to Pakistan since 47 no other prime minister has done and especially the way he has damaged the Pakistan Army so much so the current Army Chief to damage the Pakistan Army though good enough for us it's good for us so I'm saying all these things are on the positive yet My worry is that as a foolish man you don't know what he will do as far as purely as India is concerned he's you know sort of ruined his relationship with China Saudi Arabia agreed all that but when it comes to India you know he made a resort to something you know which I would rather have an intelligent enemy what no what can they resort to no they do cross-border they do everything I mean when kargil happened you had an intelligent person like Nawaz Sharif sitting out there no but the entire planning of Cargill around him those three other people the infamous four they thought they can get it skid through the whole process and I think Nawaz", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-31", "text": "skid through the whole process and I think Nawaz Sharif written about extensively about this in my book I've read it yes so why Sharif was brought in at times and I think Nawaz Sharif I mean this was the best sort of analysis was he probably didn't realize the full implications of it but he thought that if he reached Srinagar I'll take the credit for it yeah I don't believe this I just believe when he goes to GHQ and he says when are you going to give us a Kashmir and then he goes to Pakistan occupied Kashmir which the pakistanis called Azad Kashmir he goes there and he says when are you going to deliver kashmiri and the chief so you know this thing I don't know what he was saying is what you're saying is that when the Bas yatra took place when Mr he was already on board that was the level of deception I don't think so Nawaz Sharif is capable okay so I'll join issue with him so", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-32", "text": "capable okay so I'll join issue with him so I'll let's agree to differ on this yeah but I'll join I want to know on both these things see one when you talk about an intelligent enemy I would rather have a dumb guy like Imran than an intelligent guy or a cunning guy like hmm okay a lot of our problems which we have today are done by somebody like us who was very sweet very he was sweetness personified you know he was sweetness to a fault and this man would actually come out he was the President Chief martial law administrator he was the Army chief he would come out of the house to receive somebody and see somebody off he was he would lay himself out for people and everybody was flowed and the moment you turned your back he would knife you right that's what he did to us every time but why talk about us this is what he did visited him totally all this way but not all prime ministers have misread their army but our problem as", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-33", "text": "ministers have misread their army but our problem as a system this problem in the Indian system is that we get taken in by this these sweet nothings okay so one I would rather have an Imran Khan who abuses us left right and Center so at least that these guys are on their toes rather than somebody you know who's all sweetness personified and he fools you and you give in because that is your basically your character there's a danger there is do you think Imran Khan is a fool and therefore you don't take him seriously no no I no so one second then that is why people like you and I come in no that we may need to make them take certain things seriously the other problem where I disagree with you is you know I don't see any reason why anybody in India uh starts cutting slack for the Pakistani politician you know we keep saying KR no he was not entirely in charge or it's his political compulsion that he has to come to India", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-34", "text": "his political compulsion that he has to come to India and abuse Us in India because that's his political compulsion I don't care if he comes into my country and he abuses me he abuses my prime minister he abuses uh he he he wants to clear my country apart uh and he does it in a very nice sweet pansy accent I don't care I don't care about it look at the recent visit yeah just because he said foreign right I will be a good host but if you are not a good guest I am not going to be a good host I think that is unexceptionable I just want to make one thing about Bilal the most dangerous statement that he made when he went back to when he told the park journalist in Goa somebody asked him about G20 he said of course we oppose G20 in Srinagar at that time when it is being taken place we'll teach them such a lesson now this was the mask totally slipped all this while he was telling the", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-35", "text": "totally slipped all this while he was telling the G20 for SEO and he was telling the Indian media terrorism we are doing getting rid of terrorism because of our sake not because of Indian author and this is what he actually feels the mofa ministry Foreign Affairs Pakistan has tried to deny it and soft title it but they cannot get over the fact that he said at the appropriate time we will teach them such a lesson they will not forget so now you tell me that can if God forbid any attack happens can you turn around and say that the political establishment didn't know this was the military establishment is clear you can't in this case it is absolutely this is just what I was trying to draw a parallel between what uh bilawal said what Benazir has said before that when she said when she was talking about assassinating a sitting governor in Jammu and Kashmir so you scratch them a little bit each and every one of them you cannot say deniability it is true you", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-36", "text": "of them you cannot say deniability it is true you know why they carry the curse of Lucky Bhai um because his uh grandfather's father Shana was he married which Buddha you need to explain now he fell in love with a Hindu dancing girl and married her way back in 1924 I think it was then converted her to Islam and she took the name of kurshid because she came from a humble background and these were big feudals so she was badly treated mother was a Hindu yeah okay and born Hindu born in Hindu then she was converted in the feudal family they looked down upon her and didn't treat her well because she was a new convert not only that yeah and you know but not of this thing huh yeah was growing up he was aware of this his mother being mistreated and he had a huge complex there because she was a Hindu therefore to cover his Hindu Origins partial Hindu Origins he became vehemently anti-india vehemently and the", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-37", "text": "he became vehemently anti-india vehemently and the India you know when um Khan said that he will come back to Pakistan and help building the bond uh they're saying what to bang the table he said now I will show these Hindu bastards sorry to use that similarly with venison same thing is with bilaval you know they are insecure about the Hindu blood in them and therefore they have to be even more anti-india than let's say the sharifs so how come Imran Khan doesn't have that baggage of niyazi he's not defensive like what you are saying uh bilawal is about his Hinduism the sindhis and then this Hindu lineage Imran Khan doesn't have the sharifs don't have that no I'm talking I'm not talking about Sharif I'm talking about the sharifs always why do you think Imran Khan never says I'm Imran Khan right but the sharifs will always add nyazi to his name and even because Prime Minister Modi said that", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-38", "text": "name and even because Prime Minister Modi said that huh yeah but but yeah but Imran you know in a sense partly given his background uh you know at one level it's irritating for him that why are you associating me with that guy I'm you know he's not even my relative really uh so it's irritating for him but at another level he it's not a baggage that he carries that I am also a nyazi so I must avenge what happened to her nyasi I don't think that is the case but Imran has always been an islamist and if you hear what Mr G partha sathi when he was I think he was counseling what he was told out there about how Imran Khan thinks that when he is playing Cricket against India it's a Jihad you know so that that involved mindset has and you know all of them and what pisses me off is you know when people like sidhu and gavaskar and others oh Imran is such a good friend he's", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-39", "text": "others oh Imran is such a good friend he's not your friend yeah he's he does it because it suits him at some level these are not friends he is not your friend but you know try and explain it how do you explain this to a sidhu I mean you know he has that islamist streak in him he wanted the Taliban to open an office in Pakistan you know and the TTP when the Taliban when they were negotiating GTP they nominated Imran Khan as one of the interlocutors with the government of Pakistan and he said that will be your voice I will be your Ambassador yeah you know we're very early on in his career he was the understudy of Hamid Gul hmm right and everybody knows what Hamid gold stand stood for right is the guy who was patronizing Imran Khan and and when he was forming his party and he was moving forward on it it was people like so they also tried to Robin this fellow Abdul satar and then Eddie did not", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-40", "text": "fellow Abdul satar and then Eddie did not want to be a part of it and as he felt threatened by what these guys were trying to do he tried to stay away from the public he tried to stay away from it but the fact of the matter remains that these guys you know Imran has always had that streak in him and uh that is that is why when you know when I see many of these Indian cricketers Old-Timers fawn over him my friend Imran and all hey you guys are so dumb yeah Imran Khan uh who was this flamboyant in the 80s who would come he was you know he was with photographed with I think zeenat Aman if I'm not mistaken and with all the Bollywood celebrities he was the same done it was just camouflage or he didn't have this camouflage because he was a Playboy he found his Playboy image and what he was doing in England a very convenient thing to do tell me now about beloved let's talk about", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-41", "text": "do tell me now about beloved let's talk about that and what he did when he came to GOA that how you know he comes in there and he tries to be this foreign minister uh did did India underestimate him that he came with an agenda I think I don't think so the India especially The Indian in the Indian media didn't understand or didn't assess what his agenda was he wasn't addressing is he he's coming for the SEO meeting he's not coming for indo-park relations there was nothing he could have said or done to further indo-park relations all his messaging was back to Pakistan and I think the message that he was sending was specially to Rahul Pindi to the GHQ but look I can be a much better interlocutor for against India I've Suave I'm articulate and I'll be much better than Imran Khan so he was giving he was messaging Rawalpindi he's already done that he was there in New York and he uh he yeah abusive language yeah but that is one", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-42", "text": "uh he yeah abusive language yeah but that is one thing again the Prime Minister but here in India he articulated all that the Army wanted to hear he articulated about terrorism he articulated about India going has to go back from 5th August 2019 walk back in case they want to have a job with Pakistan India in fact it's just the other way and then he talked about the only thing I was surprised he didn't talk about was Balochistan he didn't mention that at all because that didn't suit his agenda yeah what I'm trying to say is that when Sharma Sheikh happened they put Balochistan on the table right and after that I would have thought that he would talk about that also that's the only thing that he didn't talk about when you look at the Sharma Sheikh declaration and you look at the text of what is written I don't even I flew into a rage at that point of time simply At The Mention of the word Balochistan but what is written in that declaration the the", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-43", "text": "but what is written in that declaration the the what is written is that the prime minister of Pakistan told the prime minister of India of certain developments in Balochistan could you can tell me about developments no there was nothing more than that declaration you you brought the the fact is that um was brought on the table and India said fine you have something to talk we can talk about it the point is that at that point of time below and we should have continued to talk about Balochistan subsequently yeah why did we not do it yeah when the Prime Minister we're trying to bring equivalence they're trying to equate themselves with you know we keep talking about terrorism which is documented they talk about samjhota equating it with 26. but that's also because the treachery happened from the Indian side right so that's what I'm saying because you wanted to do some political Point scoring within India and you diluted Your Case by implicating other people kept on doing that anyway that was in the", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-44", "text": "people kept on doing that anyway that was in the past now if we talk about bilaval if he was trying if he was trying to send a message back to the army that I am a better interlocutor I can play the Pakistan card better than an Imran Khan can does he need to say that Pakistan is already I mean Pakistan establishment has already burnt its bridges with Imran so they are not looking for an option to Imran isn't it yeah of course they are they are now now what is their option right now the option is Imran is out either they pick up somebody from his party who will be subservient and you know but I I don't think they're going to touch PTI right now or they go for somebody in the pmln right but if it's going to be miyazab coming back Nawaz Sharif they day I think I'm going to be very allergic to that so it's either Shabbat Sharif they would be very allergic to even Maryam coming to the four or", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-45", "text": "allergic to even Maryam coming to the four or the option is that if you go into a next election you have a very split verdict The People's Party manages to get about 70 80 seats about 45 odd in in sin another 10 15 In This Place South Punjab of smattering from here and there about five seven in Balochistan they are in kind of pole position because you will again have a kind of a coalition government coming into Power which suits the Army also right and then when you have a formulation like that coming into Power then why not below Alberto as the Prime Minister you know young connects with the international media connects with the International Community speaks in this nice pansy accent which everybody likes these days so all of that you know it's called metrosexual okay I'm my vocabulary is limited but thanks for correcting me okay so he you you know speaks in this very metrosexual accident and all of that so so one is that strategy of his now what is he trying to do he", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-46", "text": "of his now what is he trying to do he is basically trying to take a leaf out of the book of his grandfather and his mother they have also used the same template you abuse India to uh you know yeah you know gain political Capital within the country right Bhutto did it after 65 war and you know everybody swore by Buddha when he alleged a sellout in Kashmir uh Benazir did it later when we're going to Kashmir this guy has started doing it now so it's it's very transparent for anybody who looks at it very carefully so one is that he's he's making that sales pitch to these guys the other is that he is projecting himself that look I came to India and I abused India and India look the thing is that you know and the pakistanis are reacting why did beloved say why did Dr Jay Shankar react in this way what did they expect that Dr Jay Shankar will keep quiet why should he keep quiet he here is this and Dr", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-47", "text": "should he keep quiet he here is this and Dr jayashankar's press conference happened after the levels right and and clearly what bilawal said in his press conference had to be answered which is exactly what do you think that uh uh you know there's been criticism also in Pakistan that uh bilaval should have probably just done uh um you know a zoom uh interaction he shouldn't have come out here and uh I think there and there are articles also which have written that the meat in Goa had come down to you know becoming another agra-like situation do you agree with that no you know just one other point just before I answer your question you see right now the interesting situation is that Imran Khan is a big no no for the Army so both pmln and the PPP are joking for favors with the army what pmln has adopted is out and out support for the Army you know Shabbat Sharif keeps tweeting in favor of the army Bilal has taken the route because of", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-48", "text": "the army Bilal has taken the route because of zalari's training and zadaris you know sort of teaching him to go and Bash India so now let's see so the Army as got these two hats it'll be very interesting to see it come elections if they're held this year or whenever they're held Which hat do they pick up on so Bilal is using this track Shabbat Sharif is using that track and so is the person who becomes Prime Ministers whoever the Army picks up yes or not okay okay right despite the Army's protestation that we will not interfere in politics they are going to ultimately because if they don't interfere in politics Imran Khan is coming back I mean because of his popularity now the the question the Agra parallel to Goa see that was a summit yeah this was from foreign ministers and as Bhutto I would agree with him that he showed their commitment to the SEO you see Pakistan is not a member of G20 it is not", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-49", "text": "Pakistan is not a member of G20 it is not a member of brics it is not a member of Ric it is not a member of G7 what are they members of SEO becomes very important for them and therefore to show their solidarity with SEO and then China defense you better show up so he took this opportunity to come and I'm sure he would have told me listen you have to go this is where you can make your mark this is where you can get the attention of the people over there and just look at it in summer con six months ago when the foreign ministers met was uh uh you know knew that he's going to be pulled in into a hug there was some kind of a you know about resistance but a little awkwardness because hugging is not what happens at foreign ministers meets yeah but here so he was had this great meeting every at least for appearances in a very warm eating then he went Uzbekistan he met this so he presented himself and showed his", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-50", "text": "met this so he presented himself and showed his commitment to SEO and then he got the opportunity to lay down Pakistan's line very very strongly I mean some of the comments that he made you know this um wolf whistle all terrorism and weaponizing terrorism yeah but explain to me what that term means I don't know I couldn't figure it out myself yeah I think Dr Jay Shankar handled the reply very well on that then he talks about uh the BJP treats every Muslim as a terrorist sorry what are you saying you know on what basis this is the easiest thing to do is to used to blame a person to be islamophobic you know in the in it's become the easiest thing to beat a person you know it's like in America you know you you are anti-black you are racist so you can't recover from that kind of first and there are two places where you slipped up he said the ppp's policy is always to have good relations in India is he the foreign minister", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-51", "text": "have good relations in India is he the foreign minister of the PPP of the foreign minister of Pakistan I think he missed out over there then he said my mother was the victim of terrorism all along the line has been that killed it was an assassination not a terrorist attack yes maybe whoever was hired was he trying to say that they no longer consider mushroom of being responsible but these are small small subtleties which somebody who studied the subject very well I think he made these two big blunders then of course what he said about the G20 in Srinagar this is in the interview that he said that my mother was a victim of terrorism yeah that you know where I sit before the people this whole islamophobia thing that almost in the terrorist all falls flat because I am not only in the case of Pakistan not only the victims I am a personal victim basically he's monetizing his mother's death politically monetizing it let's put it as Darkly as that when she wasn't", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-52", "text": "put it as Darkly as that when she wasn't a victim of terrorism one second you know when he says that somebody else is trying to politicize terrorism what was that weaponization what he is doing is monetizing Terrorism for his political purpose interesting by saying that my mother is you know has has sacrificed her life his mother was the person who created the Taliban they came under her watch his mother is the person who was in the seat of power when all hell broke loose in Kashmir and over a hundred thousand people died subsequently right in that terrorism and people are still dying so all that blood is on on his mother's hands and now on his hands and I think I think where we make a mistake look I'm all for diplomatic language I'm all for diplomatic proprieties but when you are dealing with these kind of guys now then you have to use and and the good thing is that there are many occasions when the ministry of external Affairs is using appropriate language", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-53", "text": "the ministry of external Affairs is using appropriate language to Target these guys you know Punjabi News but they should you know Mothership of terrorism there are a number of interesting phrases which they have coined no I think made this formulation that he is the promoter the a couple of other things of terrorism yeah wait let me dig that out spokesperson office terrorism industry yeah which is a fact which is a fact so I think in in bilawal's case what has happened is that he uh I think this positioning which he has been trying to do look if they are actually into I from an Indian Point of View I think what is important is the signaling of the visit number one he has cured the pitch for uh Shabbat sharif's if shaba Sharif does come in July right for the summit meeting I think he has he has spoiled the grounds for that meeting if at all anything was going to come out of it but even more importantly I think what he has done is he has signaled", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-54", "text": "I think what he has done is he has signaled uh the fact that the pakistanis are not interested in even a modicum of normalization absolutely right because if they were he could have played this very differently but he decided not to see as soon as he say that you go back to the pre or you go back to the 4th August 2019 position India has to walk back and restore article 370. and what world are you living in that's not happening smell the coffee article 370 is history but he's taken the same position of Imran Khan did that so long as article 370 is not restored no dialogue no trade with India Bilal is saying the same thing Dr Jay Shankar said that his Pakistani counterpart is the promoter justifier and spokesperson of the terrorism industry this is what he had said Remember the weaponization of Terror this was a fantastic reply to him that's a good point and by calling her a victim of terrorism he has demolished the entire argument of the PPP", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-55", "text": "he has demolished the entire argument of the PPP that she was actually assassinated No in fact worse he has insulted victims of terrorism by saying that his mother is a victim of terrorism she is not a victim of terrorism so there's other nonsense um the thing is that sushant and I we we have friends uh who are pakistanis we've interacted with a number of them and all of them these are these the liberal pakistanis you know they all believe that the only person who couldn't deliver on peace between India and Pakistan other bhutos is this and then her projects you know no way yeah but you try and tell them they are the most yes no no but people's party is the most pro-establishment party nobody believes that this is what I'm trying to do look nobody believes it does not mean that it's not talking about pakistanis no even Indians so look even in India I met a Pakistani friend you know some of the journalists who had come one of them is a", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-56", "text": "the journalists who had come one of them is a decent guy I met him and I was telling him something I said listen you know all the Indian journalists also dumb down everything pardon my saying this in the company of journalists Pakistan is very important in Indian elections I sent him a report uh somebody had done this media analysis in 10 000 words that Modi spoke in 2019 nine words were Pakistan it was that important the pakistanis think that they are very important they are not the elections were fought on something completely different it was not the election was not fought on pulwama the election was fought on social welfare this La bahati thing which then at least in the up election came out very openly but you've dumbed it down Pakistani social media even in 2014 they said the same thing because at that time if you remember nawash Sharif had said that buddhi aurat or something like that he had said that why does India keep complaining to um about Manmohan Singh", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-57", "text": "India keep complaining to um about Manmohan Singh he said why does India keep going to America to complain about Pakistan so at that time Mr Modi was chief minister of Gujarat turned around and said that how dare you insult my prime minister so that became a thing so the pakistanis were like look we are so important for India they didn't get it pakistanis hate being ignored by India you know there's something that they sort of really rise them up ready we are so important in my uh comment list on on the podcast will be the same thing on the one hand you are saying that we are not important but on the other hand your podcast is all about us because arrest of Imran Khan is a very big thing and moreover the point is that it's so easy for people in social media to say why don't you ignore Pakistan why not concentrate on China which is the bigger enemy or the I mean it's stated enemy now is a bigger country and a bigger threat", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-58", "text": "now is a bigger country and a bigger threat as compared to Pakistan what do you have to say to that because I've heard you in many uh you know uh podcasts and uh discussions where you say that you ignore Pakistan at the at your own Peril which is absolutely true you see let's make a distinction China is a bigger enemy China is a more dangerous animal but you cannot ignore Pakistan because Pakistan can you know if you turn your back on Pakistan that's where you'll get hit but you see again in this Goa thing how come there was nobody interviewed the Chinese foreign minister and asked about the escalation On the Border or you're facing everybody went after Bilal see here again we at the media I think I'm sorry to no no that's fine I I understand yeah Chinese foreign minister was here I'm sure he must have been waiting for somebody to ask him for an interview nobody asked him or the Russians cannot and we must not ignore Pakistan look at what happened", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-59", "text": "we must not ignore Pakistan look at what happened you think that Pakistan is in a mess you've had two attacks with five five Indian soldiers have died you cannot ignore Pakistan and you know as I it's a radicalized Pakistan and it's a hungry Pakistan it will become an angry Pakistan and the only way the establishment is going to divert that anger is towards India therefore we need to be very very watchful and very very careful of what is happening in in Pakistan because a lot of this bakwas is going to land up on our doorsteps how how is it going to land up I think what people need a Clarity on is uh when they say now why are you giving so much importance to Pakistan it is one thing to study the enemy it is one thing to focus on the enemy and it is another thing to do all this puppy Japanese nonsense which we keep doing you know we are the same people you know all that nonsense which happens and then this this familiar truth", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-60", "text": "which happens and then this this familiar truth politicians right so but this is all I'm sorry to say this is all the Punjabi is a monkey no like you know they they love getting their backsides kicked and then want it again and again and again they start enjoying it also so much of indoctrination in Pakistan especially in Punjab foreign so the mind of a five-year-old child Hood and you have a Hindu with a big uh so the mind of a child five-year-old child all Hindus now if you're in drained this from the age of five by the time you come out of school forget the madrasa I'm talking about government schools what are you going to be so this is the kind of hatred this is all you know when they threw Papi Japan and Indians going there you know simple Indians taxi driver was so nice and anarkali Bazar I didn't have to pay anything this is all superficial for three days so I used to ask these people how many days did", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-61", "text": "I used to ask these people how many days did you stay there try staying there for a month and see how the scales fall and what the actual reality yeah when the Visas were available but people used to go for cricket matches people would go on visits so they would spend three days four days over there and come back with this kind of an impression but if you stay there long enough in Punjab you know the attitude of the sindhis attitude of the Baloch attitude of the pathan is very different than to what it is because the indoctrination of the Punjabi musliman especially the memory of the riots you know you keep saying that uh this is going to land in our doorsteps I've heard you say this many times what is it that we should be fearful of the collapse of Pakistan it's a very rough example it may not be entirely accurate but supposing tomorrow 250 000 or 500 000 people start marching towards the Indian border because there's no water there's no", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-62", "text": "the Indian border because there's no water there's no food from sin and South Punjab then you start marching towards the Indian border Pakistan Army may not let them come they may not be able to hold them what will you do what do you do at your border checkpost if somebody find this because it's humanitarian you know they don't have water they don't have food or there are bullets flying and bombs falling yeah yeah right and they are trying to escape this is a radicalized population so you have to think about it now when you have time you know as I said radicalization then why do you say that we should we want a Pakistan which is in turmoil because turmoil this might happen my there is a spectrum of possibility possibilities okay what Mr the vishwas is talking about is exists the worst case right the best case in my book is a weak tottering Pakistan ventilator basically yeah perfect right it works for me uh so one is this you know this weak uh unstable uh Pakistan", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-63", "text": "is this you know this weak uh unstable uh Pakistan which and and poor which works for me right this is my best case scenario my worst case scenario is what Mr diveshwar said but then between those two there is an entire range of possibilities which can happen so what what we need is not to be fearful that and we should not have this Mother India complex that oh we must try and save Pakistan we can't do it even if we wanted to and we should not want to do it right but what you have to prepare yourself for and this these are challenges that we've had even a millennia back so what you need to prepare yourself for is a disturbed Frontier an endless war which is what Mr diveshwar and I were in a panel the other day and this is exactly what I was saying that you have to be prepared for something which I call an endless world now this is not a war of the Ukraine Russia type but this is a war in which your security forces", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-64", "text": "but this is a war in which your security forces will be constantly keeping these elements at Bay now somewhere you might have to go inside and do certain things somewhere you might have to carve out some kind of buffer zones somewhere you will see ungoverned spaces or ungovernable spaces in Pakistan and then some kind of Warlords being out there and then you know some kind of raids taking place to try and get something out of what is India right now you have to be preparing for all those scenarios Dynamic situations Big Show and study Pakistan why is Pakistan got in such a mess that it is where people are dying for utter you know Stampede are taking place we need to look at our food situation we need to look at our water situation we need to look at what is happening in our schools in terms of what is what is the parallel that which is happening in Pakistan why should we look at our food security our education and look at Pakistan this is how this is the spiral has gone", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-65", "text": "Pakistan this is how this is the spiral has gone out of control in Pakistan they were they have the largest contiguous irrigation Network in the world till about two or three years ago they've had Surplus wheat which they would send out today they have to import 3 billion tons of wheat you know why because the acreage under wheat has been reduced they don't have enough fertilizers they don't have enough water let's not be so I mean what I'm saying is just study it yeah are our food stocks adequate that we don't have the same kind of situation yeah so that we can learn from what is happening what happened in Sri Lanka how they recovered in fact uh Imran Khan's speech itself was that that you know uh Bloomberg report he quotes in which he says I mean the the video that he's made and put out today was that Bloomberg says that uh hamari situation Sri Lanka Valley situation he said talks about uh the financial crisis yeah economic situation", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-66", "text": "talks about uh the financial crisis yeah economic situation of Pakistan is worse than what Sri Lanka situation is is what he's saying and of course he's blaming the Sharif brothers and he's blaming the current uh political establishment while he was all the time talking about the military establishment he's even blamed that so let's let me come to the Sharif Brothers where are they in this fight uh which Imran Khan is having with the Army you said that you know they are there absolutely right so where does where does that leave with Maryam why is she not an option for the Pakistan Army you see in the case of I mean I'm not sure that she's not an option I for one they will look at their best bet see Maryam initially because she's young and inexperienced she came across very strongly in the beginning when Nawaz Sharif was dismissed she was brutal criticism of the army she is now toned down after being told by Shahbaz and being told the", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-67", "text": "being told by Shahbaz and being told the problem with Maryam is that she has many competitors Sharif his son Hamza Sharif Nawaz Sharif also wants to come back and become fourth time prime minister you know so and a lot of people in the pmln takanabasi for example says that I cannot accept her as my leader so Maryam and she's very young I mean not very young she's youngish enough that she has time to go politically as mature as say Shabazz or uh Imran no administrative experience you know he's been a Hands-On chief minister he hasn't done so effectively as a prime minister so she doesn't have that she but Richie anybody who can match Imran Khan's oratory and connect with the crowd it is Maryam Nawaz no she has the Charisma yeah she gets the crowds she has a connect with the people she is very feisty uh so she has everything that is needed in becoming a mass leader I am not very sure if nawashri", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-68", "text": "mass leader I am not very sure if nawashri would want to become Prime Minister again maybe uh just Pakistan because a lot of people are saying that uh he is now looking to hand over his legacy to Maryam the only problem is that uh there is an element of impetuity in Maryam you know you see that she she is quick to uh you know get fired up which is in some cases which is good and in some cases it can be a little disaster okay I I personally feel just to uh then chief justice he wants to come back and prove a point and then maybe hand over it would be um you know uh comment made by one person who worked in the pmo of Mr vajpai Mr sudindra Kulkarni who said that uh you know this was no way to conduct uh foreign policy that what happened in Goa what was needed was for the Indian foreign minister to take the Pakistan foreign minister to the beach and hold hands and and improve relations like that so Mr", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-69", "text": "hold hands and and improve relations like that so Mr need first destroyed vajpayee's government then destroyed Mr advani's career now he's hell-bent on destroying Mr Modi it is Mr modi's good sense that he keeps Kulkarni at an arm's length the reason I'm saying you know with Mr Kulkarni is yes sushant is right so in the sense that Mr Kulkarni helped advani write that book on Jenna and that was the end of book he wrote that thing in that visitors book advani wrote on the visitor's book when he went to jinnah's Mausoleum I think what pulled down advani was that thing which he wrote in that visitors book also you see where he said very very actually gave a compliment uh that he was secular correct he didn't write a book he said that Jinnah was secular and he got his gun from suddenly let's not dismiss uh uh you know Mr Kulkarni the fact is that these were there were two people in", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-70", "text": "fact is that these were there were two people in vajpai's uh pmo which is Mr Kulkarni and Mr dulath Right these were the two people who were in The pmo I'm not saying and this is this I'm again saying that you know every time Mr Dr Manmohan Singh Is blamed for his Pakistan policy but it was a BJP government with Mr vajpayee who's the icon of BJP prime minister of you know iconic prime minister he's the one who had two people in his pmo who today say these things but what is the point you you have Mr dulat out there and who's written a book along with and you know he was in the raw and then went as advisor to uh the pmo and then you had Mr Kulkarni now these are the two people who Advocate about how Mr Modi is extremely wrong in this hawkish policy towards Pakistan and that not having talks is not the right thing to do and that India has a wrong foreign policy so you tell", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-71", "text": "that India has a wrong foreign policy so you tell me that we can look in hindsight now and say but both today both Imran Khan and beloved to have clearly drawn the line they have said unless you walk back on the 5th August 2019 changes there will be no talks no dialogue where is what Regal room is left for diplomats and people to talk they're telling him have you seen that uh show TV show Diplomat talk to everybody talk to even the terrorists talk to everybody because that's what diplomacy is all about see you go and say I want to talk to you the guy said I don't even want to talk to you you look like a fool they want to talk to you that is posturing by that we will not talk till kashmir's result because that is always in the sense of resolving now article 360 until you walk back yeah so they want us to walk back on everything they would want us to walk back right Upton yeah everything we would also want", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-72", "text": "walk back right Upton yeah everything we would also want back now we also want to walk back said that India has changed the Dynamics because of these changes in fifth August and therefore it is up to India to create the atmosphere for talks or if you don't want to talk they don't get it still we now this is what it is we don't want to talk now you at one point of time you said they don't want to talk also look they don't want to talk because of this to us it makes no difference because we are not going to change 5th August 2019 right and if they don't want to talk with us we are very happy not talking to them that's about to read nor for talks look let's face it number one when you talk about uh diplomacy you know uh diplomacy is not an end in itself you know you just keep interacting with people it is with a purpose right it has to be as part of a larger plan so if you're a democracy", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-73", "text": "of a larger plan so if you're a democracy and you you have this relationship that I will not talk it's not a mature way of of being a a superpower or or a power or a country which aims to be a superpower way but you know I won't talk to you but once again he will any day talk to you he's in such a situation today it's just posturing why should I why should I give into his posturing I want him to step off this high horse that he's climbed number one number two this whole thing you know you are a democracy and that you need to talk look number one very often people misunderstand you still have a mission in Pakistan at different levels you still have conversations going on those conversations are still happening what is not happening is this this Love Fest which used to happen in the past right and if that's not happening good it's not happening number one number two uh there is no structured dialogue of the source which was", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-74", "text": "there is no structured dialogue of the source which was happening in the past now frankly from our point of view okay maybe at the back Channel some people are talking they are trying to sort certain things out or at least keep you know the the business level of the relationship going for whatever that's worth yeah but that's where it ends now if you want a political level dialogue then what are you going to do about it if you have red lines I have bigger red lines and you have not addressed anyone you think the Pakistan Army can ever walk down when bajwa was there in March 2021 if everyone Islam was security dialogue he talked about changing geopolitics into geoeconomics he talked about let's forget the past and move where the ceasefire on the Loc Pakistan also agreed to import cotton and sugar from India and this was signed on by Imran Khan as Commerce minister when it went to him as prime minister he turned it back for a change the Army was on board to have trade", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-75", "text": "a change the Army was on board to have trade with India Baja wasn't you know was interested in this that Imran Khan because he felt left out and he felt that he is this superhuman guy how can you do this from what I have heard uh Imran was very much in the loop there were other people who were not in the loop Qureshi and Shireen mazari you know that Doctor Strange Love of Pakistan um a couple of other such people and when these guys kind of got to know that you know when the ECC passed that resolution and then they were going to go to the cabinet that is when Qureshi jumped in this Shareen mizari jumped in a couple of other people jumped in and they told Imran you know you will get wiped out politically this is not a sustainable proposition the fact is that Imran Khan isari can influence him on such important things yeah he absolutely he is seeing but he has zero intellect you know you can have a combination of", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-76", "text": "zero intellect you know you can have a combination of the two very low cunning that you are very you know smart and certain things but intellectually completely backwards which is what he is he is that you know okay so what is the way forward if I was to talk like this now okay what both of you are saying I mean you'd be considered Hawks on Pakistan many of them realistic you see because unless it until the other person wants to talk he said I don't want to talk to you how why is it that the International Community is no longer happening if you you remember the 80s whether it is America whether it is different now what is Pakistan earlier we wanted to isolate it It's The Most Dangerous Drug you do remember is the most dangerous place in the world and things like that nuclear Powers talk they know it's not going to happen and that India is now into having your look at the way you are when did that change happen when when do you think that that", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-77", "text": "that change happen when when do you think that that we India crossed over at that stage where we say to hell with you tomorrow everybody except that after 5th August 2019 Kashmir is no longer on the table as far as India is concerned and the International Community has accepted this India has pulled Kashmir out of the table as Dr Jai Shankar said the only thing is when Pakistan is going to return be okay to us so it has been accepted India has so much more to offer you know whether it's SEO whether it's G20 whether it's bricks what is China looking at sushant look before I come to China you know just on this whole Geo economics thing if Pakistan is talking about connectivity and then Pakistan says connectivity between South Asia and Central Asia etc etc South Asia is what it's India but you don't have connectivity with India so your entire connectivity project goes for a six your cpec is not going to be successful until unless it has an East-West alignment as well so", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-78", "text": "until unless it has an East-West alignment as well so you are a bridge to nowhere right so all this talk about geoeconomics Falls flat because Pakistan's geographical relevance is just not there anymore it is relevant now in the context of India now that's a very significant thing that you're saying because all along Pakistan it can still do it if it gets into trade and connectivity with India if it becomes a bridge between India yeah then it became uh when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan it became against Afghanistan then again on the war on terror so that was geographical its strategic location today that was used in a very negative context when you talk about economics geoeconomics then you are talking about something positive going forward right something which actually gets you much longer lasting benefits but for that you need to get down your high horse I just hope people in the Indian establishment underst I don't know if people even so tell me if I'm wrong because very often you know yeah I'm going to say it", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-79", "text": "very often you know yeah I'm going to say it because very often I see people talk about stuff this is the lowest of the low hanging fruits but they are such dumbos it works for them more than it works for us see at the end of the day Afghanistan is a 10 billion dollar economy 10 billion right that's the size of the economy what will you get out of that what does Afghanistan really sell or buy with what right but if those trade routes open up because the pakistanis benefit right but they want to cut their nose to spite my face I said please go ahead cut whatever else you want to cut right I don't mind and soon you will happen it will happen that Afghanistan will develop a trade rule through Iran you know and Indian ships will go from Mumbai U.S Sanchez and all there have been problems but I think things are moving so but Pakistan is because it is so stupid they don't realize the benefits of just Transit trade they don't have", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-80", "text": "the benefits of just Transit trade they don't have to do a thing truck is going from one side Tron shipment use Pakistani trucks they make money both ways yeah to come back to the question on China what is how does China View this situation now look I think what is their interest I think the the Chinese have a deep interest in Pakistan right I don't think they're going to give it up right now but I think they also have very serious concerns about Pakistan now all this stuff which you've heard over the last two days uh and other stuff which has been coming that now we are going to make a railway line from the karakoram it's not happening okay I can tell you why are you laughing about that come on there's 62 billion dollars in Pakistan it's not happening it's not going to happen plus if they make a railway line out there it presents fabulously juicy targets uh in the event of a conflict right and it just comes crashing before that what about the", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-81", "text": "and it just comes crashing before that what about the uh the Baloch and the TTP will they allow it will they allow it or through their land right so so uh so all those announcements I think you take with a pinch of salt but I think the Chinese have a very deep strategic interest in Pakistan I think they've given up those dreams of Pakistan also having some economic value because as of now they've only sunk money in Pakistan uh the interesting thing and this is somebody uh in some official who whose assessment it was and I think he's right uh if you look at what the Chinese are doing they're not giving the pakistanis any money the way they used to in the past right they're not stepping up to the plate and saying that okay fine if you're not getting a deal with the IMF I will step up and I will bail you out they're not doing it what the Chinese are doing is what a would do right they are saying okay let him her him everybody else come and", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-82", "text": "okay let him her him everybody else come and bail you out then we will chip in and you have the money to start paying us then we will come okay and the pakistanis uh are in a very bad spot right now partly because now the Chinese are no longer even observing diplomatic niceties with them you know what what the Chinese foreign minister said in public when he was years ago with the level on the side Pakistan get your act together what are you doing to this political instability is not if I've never seen the Chinese admonish do you know at the foreign minister level the earlier the Chinese Embassy in Islamabad had issued a diplomatic note when they were wrangling about the route yeah they had done that but that was a Chinese Mission here in the Chinese foreign minister in Islamabad telling them get your act together earlier do you remember in the 90s I think the Chinese president I think it was Jiang zamin yeah who had advised them it was in Lahore if I'm", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-83", "text": "advised them it was in Lahore if I'm not mistake I think it was addressing Parliament either it was in Lahore or the joint session I'm not very clear right now but he had advised them that you know you need to start making up with India not in as many words but basically saying problems need to be sorted out they ignored that the pro problems only increased to their detriment now this guy has come and said that look you know you have this great internal stability and you have this kind of a thing who's going to come to Pakistan who will invest money in Pakistan right uh but this is in front of cameras you know what is happening behind closed doors is even worse they are actually talking down to the pakistanis they're treating them like a client now you know that kind of is happening what was that uh that was what we're saying and obviously right you know sushant was talking about bailing out Pakistan how come you know it's not happening", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-84", "text": "out Pakistan how come you know it's not happening historically we've always seen that the West steps up America steps up and bails out Pakistan all the three times when us has been the only interested in Pakistan today is the nuclear weapons and terrorism to make sure that the terrorists you know don't uh beyond that the U.S is not interested in either Pakistan or in Afghanistan and Russia and what is this so Russia thinks it's fine for them but they also know that the U.S Pakistan is giving ammunition to Ukraine which is being used against Russian troops and the Russians are not stupid you know they also know this so let's see when the first tanker comes to Karachi how will they refine it it won't be refined sir it'll be a refined product will come they don't have the capacity yeah exactly they don't have so I don't know whether it is crude oil or whether it is a refined product refined products they're going to be selling refined products okay which is why the", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-85", "text": "to be selling refined products okay which is why the the price which is normally being coated there's no Clarity right now but whatever price is being quoted I doubt if they're going to be selling it at that price because crude price is something and refined products or something completely different and then of course the fact that it takes many days for that crew to travel all the way uh also as a price attached to it so so if they are quoting 45 50 a barrel I think that's nonsense that's that's not going to be the it's going to come at the end of the month we will get more clarity on I won't be surprised because you know the Americans can be pretty ruthless when it comes down to it although article they are more woke than they are ruthless but um given how much they have resisted uh bailing out Pakistan or you know getting even the IMF to give them a billion dollars not that that billion dollars is going to change anything but given how much", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-86", "text": "dollars is going to change anything but given how much they have resisted or they've not really stepped up to the plate uh I suspect that there might be something else which is maybe they have reconciled can go let them sink let them go under because once they go under then maybe we can extract certain other benefits out of these guys and of course why should we bail them out when they are so close to the Chinese let the Chinese put in their money now the Chinese are saying let the Americans put in their money between the cracks so is Pakistan falling between the cracks as what sushant is saying you know right now I mean both of us I think between us 50 years of experience of looking at Pakistan officially unofficially whatever okay I've never seen Pakistan so bad because it's multiple crisis being called a poly crisis you have a political crisis very severe political crisis you have with constitutional implications you have a Judicial crisis the Judiciary is fighting amongst itself there's a", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-87", "text": "the Judiciary is fighting amongst itself there's a confrontation between the legislature and the Judiciary for example Kenny Murray the chief justice has asked for records of the National Assembly debate to be summoned and the National Assembly has retorted by telling the speaker you convert the house into a committee and we will summon the Chief Justice before us and ask him to give the records of their deliberations on how they've arrived parliamentary committee can do that this is amazing you had people have not recovered from the floods the 30 lakhs people still living outside you have a security crisis the TTP is on the Rampage you know so all these crisis and then the economic crisis and then sir the institutional crisis an army which is which is diffident which is not able to assert itself the way it has in the past and the Army has always seen itself as a sucker of Last Resort if yeah exactly so this is what I was coming last resort chief martial law administrator", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-88", "text": "I was coming last resort chief martial law administrator with all this crisis what else uh what can the Army do the Army has no Expedition on the economy what can the Army do in Pakistan that they've always been the solution what is the solution is led to the problem far worse no no but see uh the earlier problems were never as deep and as widespread as they are now so earlier there would be a political problem the Army would step in there was an economic crisis or something the Army would the economic crisis has never been as bad as this right this time given all those crises which you know Mr diveshwar has outlined if the Army steps in and that might be the last resort and it might happen in the next couple of days for all we know yeah then the problem is what magic wand does the Army have to sort these matters out are they going to shoot at people are they what are they going to do how are they going to how are they going to fix the", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-89", "text": "they going to how are they going to fix the economy so for fixing the economy you need very very deep structural reform right very deep structural reform also will extend to the Army okay even if it doesn't extend to the Army it will it will completely uh you know append and overhaul the complete economic system which means a lot of those uh those those Rich guys who have been trotting all over the place are going to go under it's going to cause massive disruption and dislocation and then it will have a certain impact which will be felt in the rest of the polity then you have to fix how are you going to fix the politics of the country and then once you have intervened then when you climb off that horse we have seen in the past what has happened when the transition takes place after a couple of years to another civilian government you again have a civilian government which is always looking over its shoulder so the message as soon as there's a military coup sanctions will", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-90", "text": "soon as there's a military coup sanctions will kick in from the U.S I am a Phil stop giving you'll find World Bank will pull away so the only solution which can take place may not be a military coup but what's being called a technocratic government you know people they bring in about their technocrat government experiment has not worked in the past either yeah exactly it has not worked in the past tried it initially he brought in a government of technocrats yeah yeah it didn't work yeah but look even what will the Techno grad so the problem with the the problem with the technocrat is he has no connect with the people no okay he will be sitting here okay this is how I'm going to fix the economy without worrying about impact a politician what he will do is also came in everybody said that he he's not a politician so it doesn't matter you have a technocrat who's sitting out here in fact there are many who think that even raghuram Rajan is hopeful that", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-91", "text": "think that even raghuram Rajan is hopeful that other Rahul Gandhi prime minister I will be the Prime Minister many say that that's what raghuram rajan's uh uh so if you say that delusions technocrat is fine thinking that he will become Prime Minister after some time the technocrat also becomes political because the most underrated politician you know he was a very very shrewd politician he was a technocrat he was so even if Pakistan Army brings a technocrat do you think that he will be disconnected so begin with yes you see a politician's biggest Advantage is he feels the pulse of the people he knows what the people want look at even the Shabbat Sharif government the IMF was negotiations were going well then they gave a massive subsidy on fuel prices and the image just pulled off ninth reviews the IMF said nothing of the sort you've gone back these politicians are saying look we need to have something for relief for the people it cannot be a cut", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-92", "text": "for relief for the people it cannot be a cut and dried program what you are telling us to do we have to give relief to the people but then the IMF will not accept that so A technocrat will say as you said this has to be done he doesn't have that pulse of the people and in India's case when Manmohan Singh bolt at certain reforms right because he thought that he will not be able to sell it it was narasimha Rao Who I Really credit as the architect of the reforms right or the father of the reforms who actually said you go ahead do it let me manage the politics the congress party lost in 1996 partly as a result of the disruption which happened but they saved this country and I think that credit goes to the congress party and to both Dr Manmohan Singh as well as narasimha Rao but without narasimha Rao backing those reforms the way he did it they would have never happened true but even then", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-93", "text": "they would have never happened true but even then Smita what many people forget is that Pakistan has gone through that cycle 23 times or at least 13 times right in India is the first time it happened we kind of reformed and we moved forward the pakistanis have always taken the IMF loan [Music] it's also this I think the mentality that Indians have okay the gold that that that thing that was so nice you know I don't think Chandra shekar ever got over that Dhaba on his prime minister yeah but that was a very smart thing he did not sure agreed but politically it was disastrous but yeah it's it's like you said you know Pakistan's case you know they have this belief that they are too important to fail the way the only Muslim country with nuclear weapons weapons they're too important locations they can't reform their own system but somebody else will come and bail them out if you look at social media you look at Pakistan television there is this thing that is everybody sent", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-94", "text": "television there is this thing that is everybody sent if you can afford it you send your children that's what all the TV shows nationalities dual nationalities they're all going they're sitting abroad and they're commenting about the situation in Pakistan but there is a change if you've noticed in some of the tonality that you know India is I'm noticing the same people who were so vitriolic have changed in their television shows absolutely yes you see there are diplomats there are army officers retired they're these v-loggers despite his faults you know Mr Modi has done wonders for India then we should trade after all we are the same one person even said you know I became uh um you know my grandfather converted the one generation or two generations ago I wish he hadn't so I want to go back and claim my Heritage in India you know things like this they're meaningless because they don't really matter you know this is just too small but yes it is indicative conversely there are people", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-95", "text": "but yes it is indicative conversely there are people in India again a very few who don't matter at the moment the dynamic is they are saying Pakistan is today is very weak we should perform a much more aggressive policy towards Pakistan so you know you have this one who says this is amazing Dynamic no it's happening on both sides and I agree with you that there are people in Pakistan who now suddenly are discovering their Indian Roots they want to play crickets and if jesha was ever to allow it I'll curse him right I'll curse him the worst curses if he was ever to allow it when you have the enemy on the mat slay him okay I am very very clear and I'll give you the look I have not become what I am today I have not I didn't I was not born thinking like this right I came from a family my father who had very good associations across the border uh some which I inherited uh and really good ones right uh and and I there", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-96", "text": "and really good ones right uh and and I there was a time when I got into this profession I actually believed you know things can work out until I realized better and my for me I think in many ways the cutoff point was 2008 26 11. that's when I said and and not just the attack the attitude of the pakistanis when they tried to cover it all up you know not contrite nothing and even when people said you know this is very bad they were being utterly insincere and dishonest when they were saying it they didn't give a they were all bloody celebrating I know it so that is that was my cutoff point now my point is that you you know you always try and cut slack for them the moment you cut slack for them and they recover the attitude is the same what it was before they you know before this you know the mindset has been so poisoned against India this is all tactical this is all you know the Punjabi I have to speak about this", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-97", "text": "know the Punjabi I have to speak about this you know there are so many diplomats who when they are in service and when they do Pakistan desk and all that when we are journalists you know they get after us there's an article also you've seen how when India Pakistan talks you know there'd be one press conference that Indians would have then there's another press conference that The pakistanis Have and the dialogues were going on so we rushed from one to the other to the other till the deadline of the newspaper shutting down and then whoever had the last press conference that person got the upper hand so literally till page shutting time when this was before 24 hour news cycle they got the final word those very diplomats once they retire they become like from Hawks they become dumbs that because there was an entire industry which catered to that yeah the junket industry now that industry has broken so now you're seeing the diplomats who talked about improving ties they are the", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-98", "text": "who talked about improving ties they are the ones who have become Hawks you know where is the intellectual honesty in this at least sushant is saying that he changed his views because he inherited something uh you know and then he realized the ground situation intellectual dishonesty that you've seen yeah absolutely there's no doubt about that there's a whole lot of them you know and uh so their attitude is you have to accept you must accept a contrary point of view that we need to have if India is to grow if India has to become a regional power you would need to take your neighborhood along with you you need to have you know trade you need to have a flexible Visa policy so they justify their position or their change in their position on this basis that we're talking what is good for India in the long term that if you want to become Regional power that this is what you must do neighborhood first should be included no but but here is the problem you know when", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-99", "text": "no but but here is the problem you know when people say all this I I understand where they're coming from and I I can okay I respect their point of view but I want empirical evidence what is the empirical evidence do they have in justifying what they are suggesting right if you look at uh the the data let's take 1990 as the cutoff when India starts the economic reforms uh and India was behind Pakistan at that point of time right and 1990 is also the 1991 also the point where uh terrorism comes in a way although it came in the 80s in Punjab but 1990s was like Punjab was already happening the pakistanis were also involved in Northeast which very often does not enter our national Consciousness correct they were all over the bloody place right now you look at the trajectory of the two countries from 1990. and our trade with Pakistan has always been marginal yeah right so we have achieved whatever we have achieved in the last 25 odd years regardless regardless of", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-100", "text": "in the last 25 odd years regardless regardless of Pakistan how does it matter if India has to become a great power yes we must have good relations with our neighbors but with neighbors who want to have good relations with us exactly we should not and and this whole thing that no we need to suck up to Pakistan because otherwise what does Pakistan offer Us in terms of connectivity let's talk about it I keep asking people it will connect us to Central Asia before that Allah right you can't I don't think you can have anybody will build anything through Afghanistan at this stage maybe the central Nations have something to sell us and Pakistan is important in that context but it is not for me and I can I can root it otherwise there are many efficient routes and people have actually uh tried some of those routes uh through Iran and through other places to access the Central Asian markets and those have turned out to be uh extremely profitable and viable so Pakistan is not important for me in that context if I was to", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-101", "text": "important for me in that context if I was to if I was to come back to Imran and get it into the personality part you are obsessed with Imran Imran Khan if I was to come back to Imran Khan and this is the accusation that all men make that women journalists no no I'm not saying this as a woman journalist I'm saying as a hindustani patrika yeah I'm sorry to say four books on Pakistan and but it didn't happen this time in Goa no because he didn't call you he treated the Indian media like he only spoke to the Pakistani media no no and also spoke to Indian media okay I'm sure the mission here would have selected who they wanted to speak to um you know his car is coming and he's getting off there in the hotel and he's entering the hotel 24 7 the live another T20 match the Chinese foreign minister came nobody knew where he came when he went nobody saw the Russian foreign minister but he realized that", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-102", "text": "saw the Russian foreign minister but he realized that Indian media has been reporting for a long time if you remember everything because even now they say SRI Jinping or Mr Jinping in many they don't realize that you call them president you'd say she you don't say Jinping but this is it because Indian media like uh I'm sorry but even authors and Specialists are focusing all the time on Pakistan we have fought three and a half Wars for conflicts if I may say three Wars on Kashmir and one war with Pakistan which was not on Kashmir we all the time we've had Pakistan as our adversary so obviously everything about Pakistan is important right yeah but how much do people in India despite all this Obsession which people have how many people actually under understand the damn place what is you are willing to sell off your country because he didn't charge 10 Rupees from you and people out here make the mistake of confusing personal relationships and you can have very good personal relationship with a few", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-103", "text": "you can have very good personal relationship with a few people across the border with and then they extrapolate that personal relationship with the national level relationship ignoring all the muck which is there you know and that is what I I find a Pakistani journalists also did know they came to Goa and they said if you can't go to uh the west then Goa serves your purpose but yeah stories back home that's a different thing but I mean you will agree with this also have this they love Shahrukh Khan they love Salman Khan they love coming to Indian monuments looking at it I've seen them gushing about everything but when the trouble happens is when it comes to Kashmir when you talk about Kashmir to any Pakistani it's that that is where all the divisions occur and if you decide that that is going to be the driving force of a relationship it cannot last with the Pakistani then you cannot have a conversation but you can talk about Bollywood you can talk about they love your", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-104", "text": "talk about Bollywood you can talk about they love your bhujia they love your chart you like their Khana yeah I love McDonald's I love Burger King I love I love Taylor Swift I love all many other Americans American Music I love her right so I there are many things about the West which I love in fact you know I I I actually identify with those things yeah right I get does that make me a Westerner I can have a conversation with somebody on many of these things but does this mean that I understand that place no does this mean I want to live out there no so you know don't confuse that no no that what I'm trying to say is that Obsession it's not an obsession there are many people who have kinships with with pakistanis they understand and pakistanis with Indians and everybody says that that the common people uh whether in Pakistan or in India certain part of it you know just North India South India couldn't be bothered they have nothing in common with Pakistan they have", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-105", "text": "they have nothing in common with Pakistan they have nothing in common with pakistanis at all in fact even the pakistanis say that that we have more in common with North India and South India is like a different country as far as we are concerned we would say the same thing for the Sydney and the Baloch also yeah that's also true I mean uh I think in some ways India Pakistan is a Punjabi Civil War yeah in many ways and there are many in who say but Pakistan from an equation India Pakistan can actually resolve their relationship no no but look again I go back to 47. relationships which you keep telling us all we lived well we were all either myth making it was your neighbor who was butchering you right and I I have seen people who I've been I've known one of my accountants uh from another life you know the stories which I've heard his father was a bank manager and now Shera which is a big thing right this is a five-year-old kid he had a one-year younger", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-106", "text": "a five-year-old kid he had a one-year younger sister and the father had gone to wind up stuff in nashira in KP to come back and the mob attacked this kid hid with his little sister in a corner and he saw his parents and grandparents getting butchered this five-year-old kid and somehow he made it to some camp right and this is a personal story this gentleman was my accountant you've seen stories like this now you want to forget it all and say no no but we were living in peace together you were not the moment you got a chance you butchered each other so don't give me that crap you know that we were all it was all very hunky-dory it wasn't yeah it must have been among some people but by and large you had separate Villages propaganda said that even when the contest was between two Muslims and 45 elections 46 elections the air propaganda was that a vote for a Muslim candidate of the Muslim League can vote for a Muslim candidate of", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-107", "text": "the Muslim League can vote for a Muslim candidate of the Congress is a kafir so I am going to now come to the concluding remarks uh so in conclusion where do you see india-pakistan relations what do you see happening in Pakistan now I don't say indo-pakistan relations going anywhere unless it until Pakistan walks back on the position that it has taken it there's no regular room for diplomats at all to talk at any issue see on on Pakistan itself we've talked about the current situation in Pakistan which is extremely bad but you know below this which I've been writing and talking about other structural problems in Pakistan takes water is running out of water my favorite topic education 50 of the children don't go to Primary School how are they going to go to secondary and so it doesn't poorly educated or illiterate labor force how will they compete in a globalized world economy we have talked about population is growing at over 2.4 2.5 percent as it results the latest census are going to", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-108", "text": "percent as it results the latest census are going to come out there are about 3 million people entry the labor force every year unless until the Pakistan's economy or Pakistan's economy grows at about six to seven percent they cannot find jobs for these people so what happens to these poorly educated poorly educated people young people who are coming out of the job market so these are the deeper problems which nobody in Pakistan is paying attention to so I see even if they solve the current problems the Constitutional problems the political problems the economic problems are nothing what's going to happen to water see China can't give them water nuclear weapons can't produce water yeah as for Pakistan's own Studies by 2025-26 the per capita availability of water will fall below 500 cubic meters which is that drought chapter in his book by the way yes so you know I see people do something yeah nobody's thinking about it so uh sushant uh tilak has spoken about what's going to happen with Pakistan and the structural issues", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-109", "text": "going to happen with Pakistan and the structural issues I want to ask you in conclusion how is Kashmir reacting to this how do they feel like betrayed by Pakistan how do they see it kashmiri see it because it was always that Pakistan will bail them out you know so what now so a couple of things one I think what happened the Constitutional reforms in 2019 I have proven to be a game changer I think that's a no-brainer we honestly speaking uh The Audacity Of what was done the reforms that were initiated uh I was I was taken aback right and frankly I I was really hoping that I Hope they've thought this thing through but at that point of time a kashmiri Pandit friend of mine told me that kashmiris are very smart people and they can see which way the direction in which the wind is Flowing um right but everything will settle down and they will adjust to the new reality it seems that is happening there is of course", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-110", "text": "it seems that is happening there is of course there is a problem there will be an element which will never reconcile but I think what you need to do in Kashmir is to steadily marginalize those guys not give them the kind of space that people like Mr dullath and others used to give in the past so that they keep doing what they are doing nothing of the nonsense right it's good that this government has cracked down on money laundering it's good that this government has cracked down on a range of other issues and that is the way to go so that uh the only thing missing right now in that whole plan is a a kind of a political Revival or a Revival of the political process terrorism what about that yeah terrorism is a very low level they've just hit on your way those things will happen I remember what I told you earlier be prepared for an endless war right this is going to happen it'll happen so you have to be ready for that you have", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-111", "text": "so you have to be ready for that you have to continuously symmetrical where there has to be some kind of reaction Israelis have been doing it for 70 years have they got a result and they hit back even much harder than what we have been eating and yesterday it happened like last night uh uh the Israeli uh have the Israelis have launched uh another uh yeah so they'll keep doing it right yeah they'll keep doing it the other guys will keep coming back they will drive a car into somebody they'll fire a few Rockets So Israel I think is in an endless war we are in an endless war I think we need to internalize that reality uh so that we can combat it if we keep expecting that you know India will become a land of milk and honey and everybody it will be you know that Utopia thing then frankly I think you need to go to a mental Asylum that's not going to happen so I think one is as far as Kashmir is concerned", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-112", "text": "one is as far as Kashmir is concerned I am very very clear that that is the right that is the reality as far as Pakistan is concerned I I agree with what Mr Davis is saying that it's not just the current crisis it's also the deep-seated crises which are there right and they have absolutely no idea on how they are planning to address that they neither have the resources nor the intellect nor the intention okay because out there everything is three weeks that is there basically their time frame get to see today off tomorrow is another day and and they take it right to the wire before they back off right but on the india-pakistan uh thing I think it is very clear to me that the pakistanis are geniuses in not missing any opportunity to miss an opportunity and what they do is that they they go For Broke and every time when they are talking to India they will go For Broke right and what happens is that they take positions and whatever might be a", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-113", "text": "is that they take positions and whatever might be a possible solution or might be on offer to sort out certain problems is off the table after that when they come back to the table what was on offer in the past is no longer an offer so for example uh and I don't want to go back into history because now you're winding up but what was on offer during this era what Ambassador Lama and others have written about I don't think that's on offer anymore that's not an offering they've lost that opportunity yeah there might be something on offer right now right I don't want to talk about it but there might be something on offer right now if they want to accept it and I'll say something very very strange right and very counterintuitive everybody says that nothing will happen before 2024. I say the only window of opportunity the pakistanis have right now where they can get a deal that they might be able to live with is before ma February March 2024 because once the elections happen then", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-114", "text": "February March 2024 because once the elections happen then even that is off the Indian elections yes even that is off the table you think there's a political Capital I'm writing on it so you can read my article but there might be political Capital if they agree to a deal uh which uh India will also reconcile to it they can also reconcile otherwise Pakistan has never won an election for any prime minister no no no no but again right even though I don't think it will finally settle but I'm just saying that it's probably a point zero one percent chance but there is if there is a window you have it till then after that what is on offer right now is not on the time look what happened with my trying to be provocative even now every time Pakistan is spoken about or anything happens the first thing they're saying is [Music] so you know he has not been able to live down or at least the party has not been able to live down that thing that he made that", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-115", "text": "able to live down that thing that he made that effort he invited Nawaz Sharif so which is why which is why they blew that opportunity the pakistanis in pathankot yeah right they have a slim opportunity in my this is my analysis they have a slim opportunity till about February other then you know you're actually going they slim opportunities even if they take that opportunity which you are suggesting even if they take it they don't control their bats they don't control use your bad action they don't control it it will happen you know I I think that today Sharif is in such a weak position he cannot afford to expend any political capital on any sort of I'm talking about Indian political Capital I'm not talking about it till if they hold elections in October if let's say elections are held there's a new government that may have some political Capital after this is till then I agree with him that Pakistan always shoots itself in the foot and whatever was an offer is no", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-116", "text": "in the foot and whatever was an offer is no longer an offer I don't think so this is the time for Pakistan to grab any opportunity if Shabbat Sharif does it go after him and he'll be able to ride the religious is going into jail the religious parties will get after uh see my my own sense is uh and like I said I'm saying that this is a long shot but this is the only shot because once you go into an election and if this current dispensation comes back to Power in India in 2024 . five years they can forget it then they can there's nothing on the table right so that is why I am saying that yes Pakistan is weak Pakistan is not going to become America tomorrow or next year or in the next five years does it even matter they are only going to become weaker look at the trajectory India is going like this Pakistan is going like this right the trajectories have changed completely so it's not as though 10 years from now the pakistanis will be", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-117", "text": "though 10 years from now the pakistanis will be our equals I think that train has gone that's left the station so they have to understand that there might be something on offer to them right now and then Modi can use it uh rather than you know pillaring Pakistan he can use it to enhance himself and use it as you know you remember 99 elections when uh before Cargill happened what was vajpays a three-point agenda pass budget and there was one more I think bus budget and I don't know one more one more B right it was a 3B kind of that was the agenda the bus went to kargil and dropped on the cliff so they kind of completely changed and then they it made it BBK right uh but but what I'm saying is that vajpai tried to change the entire narrative by saying that peace actually becomes an election uh thing for me it didn't happen there it again I can see the skepticism on your face and I completely understand it", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-118", "text": "on your face and I completely understand it politically no Pakistan politically peace with Pakistan or moves towards Pakistan no Indian Prime Minister after he will risk it in a free elections I am telling you one thing the pakistanis are so dumb that they will not they will see it the way you are seeing it no I don't mean you are dumb but you are doing a political analysis but they are so dumb that they will not see that this is their own they're not going to become stronger they're not going to get anything after 2024 whatever they are getting they're getting now if they want it if they don't want it it's off the table they won't not only when they not see it so this is the future the Indian Prime Minister will not make that move is because no Indian Prime Minister can make that move the Indian Prime Minister was ready to make certain moves which were being discussed on the back channel on the back Channel I went but now with four or five assembly elections and", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-119", "text": "went but now with four or five assembly elections and a general election which is coming do you think that anybody wants Pakistan but what I'm saying is you talking about Rajasthan which is also a frontier state which goes into polls so there is anyway let's see how things uh yeah did not affect the 26 11 did not affect the elections which were happening while 2611 was happening yeah correct that's right so yeah so this is sum up what about Pakistan in one line the challenges in Pakistan today are beyond the capacity and the capabilities of the Pakistani leadership to resolve they just don't have the vision they don't have the ability so that is the dynamic that is the and nobody has a vision neither Imran Khan nor Shiva Sharif nor bilawal have any Vision what solution are you going to do for them yeah what the complex problems that you have this is the situation of Pakistan is in today okay thank you so much gentlemen as I said my Repeat Performance guess so uh", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "926532e17a3e-120", "text": "gentlemen as I said my Repeat Performance guess so uh viewers listeners uh please do like subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this uh namaste click here to watch the previous episodes [Music]", "source": "hSDfIBpFWis"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-0", "text": "the people who are vilifying India on the international stage are primarily India's own intellectuals IMF is probably lowballing that and not because I'm a better Economist than them but because I'm a better sociologist our knowledge of India comes from a relatively small number of Highly Elite intellectuals who have access to Publications Western Publications like the New York Times Washington Post Wall Street Journal they write op-eds in these Publications and the message we get is that India has become autocratic authoritarian country on the verge of despotism where elections are no longer free if you read any Western portrayal of the RSS they will say it is an ultra right-wing paramilitary organization everybody who is reporting in America on the Soviet Union were a bunch of white russian emigries had an ax to grind China buys it oh yeah China buys its positive coverage they go at the highest level they pay millions for example they're very expensive Chinese advertising supplements in most of the major newspapers in the US", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-1", "text": "in most of the major newspapers in the US they don't carry a lot of anti-china op-eds no you won't say that don't you see it but it's not a lot of it no because losing that China Daily advertising supplement is a big Financial hit G20 I forgive me I know it's a big deal here I don't take it very seriously the biggest challenge facing Indian democracy is the opposition just isn't up on its game welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is Professor Salvatore babones who's an American sociologist living in Sydney Australia he writes about Asia's role in the global political economy with special focus on China and now India he's published a dozen books and several academic articles in 2022 he criticized democracy indices who downgraded India under Modi and for that the conservatives in India adore him and the Liberals are suspicious of him professor babones has been a regular on the Indian media scene and is very active on Twitter", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-2", "text": "the Indian media scene and is very active on Twitter with several Indians who retweet his India tweets Professor bobanis thank you so much for coming on the podcast with the you know I've been wanting to speak to you I met you at the Mangalore lit Fest and I was looking forward to uh you know your interaction there itself but then the podcast is where we meet so um I have a bunch of questions I'd like to begin by asking you that this is your second visit uh to India only my second visit only your second visit and I noticed that you know you had this fan crowds coming for selfies and the it seems like the left wing is suspicious of you and the right wing just adores you sees you as their massacred and uh they they kind of like it that you know you you are uh you're not suspicious of India and you are uh you're bullish on India of course you know so uh I wanted to know whether how your second visit has been uh first", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-3", "text": "know whether how your second visit has been uh first it's just been a pleasure and as the first visit was and it's been wonderful having let's be honest a small but highly committed fan following thanks everyone you know I'm thrilled that uh that that you want to read my stuff and retweet it and no one will be hearing about things I'm doing if people weren't retweeting it so thanks to the tweeters thank you retweeters uh you know it's really generous of them to put me in their timeline a second visit has been much more relaxed than the first the relaxed is a relative term uh the first visit I hardly got outside of a hotel conference room uh this second visit the one thing I really wanted to do was see Varanasi uh I wanted my first on the ground on foot no minders I can go where I want experience of India to be Varanasi because I wanted it to you know the oldest city in the world the holiest city at least in you know for", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-4", "text": "world the holiest city at least in you know for several religions uh I wanted that to be my first introduction to India and it really was uh worth it it was very special um I was a visiting professor at Bernard's Hindu University and my first morning there uh I just took a walk uh to the ganga straight to the ganga it was about 15 minutes to get to the banks of the ganga my first moment at the ganga I shared it with about half a dozen cows and we all had a nice visit together I shared my grapes I was eating grapes I'd gotten on the street yeah and uh the cows and I shared some grapes and views of the ganga and it was really magical much much better than going straight to the tourist center to start at the end and walk past all the gods down into the center you're not particularly religious person but what was that did you feel anything spiritual or did you feel what was the sense that you got because everybody", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-5", "text": "feel what was the sense that you got because everybody has a different experience when they go to the ganga I don't want to disappoint anybody but I'm not religious at all I I'm entirely atheistic uh that said I could tell that it was a very special place so I didn't have any Spiritual Awakening or or anything like that but getting there and I have to say with the cows it was the cows that made it truly special and I can see why uh why the cow is revered in India I myself am a vegetarian and a really enormous milk Drinker okay you get fabulous milks uh based sweets out there some desserts that they make in varanas oh I don't want the milk-based sweets I just want the milk if I could actually one one small disappointment in India is that people don't serve milk I I thought the cow is you know the the cow is revered just give me a big glass of milk no not all this sweet not all these curds", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-6", "text": "no not all this sweet not all these curds but I think uh they're hesitant to give it to foreigners because they think that maybe you would think that you know it's uh it's not pasteurized or you know it's not so I think they're hesitant to give anything which is not cooked and at the vishwanath temple I did have the opportunity to give milk to the God so that was uh that was an experience right so from Varanasi where did you go forward I arrived first in Delhi uh on each visit to Indy each my two visits my first visit I arrived in Mumbai and I immediately had a um uh uh oh how could the most standard Indian uh appetizer Samosa samosas thank you how can I blank so my very first meal was supposed to this time I arrived in Delhi uh and my very first meal was a Dosa so it wasn't disabled no no so the two greatest foods in the world uh a Samosa and a Dosa vegetarian so I", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-7", "text": "a Samosa and a Dosa vegetarian so I have my Dosa Masala then caught the plane to um to look now uh and so I was in Luke now for three days oh yes and then uh onward to Varanasi on the rajdani express that was an overnight not overnight it was a sleeper train but I was in the daytime or early evening portion and that was my my famous meal in second class in the rajdani express oh and that was an interesting you have to tell us about that anecdote where you put that picture it was wonderful so I I was on the train and they they sir I was shocked that in second class on an Indian train which I what did I pay five dollars for this seat I have no idea what it was it was super cheap um somebody came and brought me uh dinner I thought I thought you had to order dinner pay for it no no he just brought me this is part of your your ticket and I was really shocked and", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-8", "text": "of your your ticket and I was really shocked and I I put the tray aside and I went to take a photo of it and I think Mr Kumar the uh the porter was worried that something was wrong I wanted to complain so he asked someone who spoke English and I said no no I'm amazed I want to take a photo send it to the minister you know that like what great service that you're getting hot and then Mr Kumar wanted to take a photo with me so we did the selfie uh I ate it all some of the newspapers Mis uh identified it as chicken curry of course I'm a vegetarian it was a veggie Curry uh it was a veg Curry some kind of doll rice and naan or some kind of bread and it was uh just fantastic I I mean some of the I I'll say some of the best Indian food I've had certainly some of the best curries I've had and I guess Curry is something that if you make it well you", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-9", "text": "Curry is something that if you make it well you can make yeah 10 000 gallons of it just as easily as you can make a one gallon of it you know you would enter Pradesh uh at this Summit and uh I recalled seeing one of the videos that you know where you have said you've compared uttar Pradesh and you said that if you see uttar Pradesh or Bihar the per capita income is really low in spite of that I mean it and you compared it to some of the others is the same GDP per capita as Ethiopia Bihar is down at Rwanda yeah we we forget just how profoundly poor these parts of India are and we forget it because compared to poor African countries these states are reasonably well administered they have they have working train Services they have a usable Road Network okay maybe they're not at you know California standard well the trains are better but maybe the roads aren't at California standards but um compared to other places that have similar income", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-10", "text": "but um compared to other places that have similar income levels now I haven't been to Bihar but I can say that uttar Pradesh certainly compared to places that have similar income levels uttar Pradesh is incredibly well administered now somebody out there will say how can you say uttar Pradesh is well administered I've had this problem I've had that problem and I said well go to Ethiopia I I mean Ethiopia is in the midst of its I don't know its fourth or fifth Civil War uh you know entire parts of the country are not reachable from other parts of the country you might have a you know Dusty dirt road connecting them there's no National Train Network in Ethiopia uh there's Perpetual risk of famine there's been a famine in the past year war induced famine in in Ethiopia um there the political violence in Ethiopia is Extreme uh there's right now only one political party that essentially controls the entire country I don't mean one party that wins like", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-11", "text": "country I don't mean one party that wins like you know Yogi and the BJP have one in neutral profession I mean it's effectively a one-party State um that's what you get on a thousand dollars per capita GDP and when you look at UT Pradesh already it might not be perfect there are lots of problems there's certainly persistent poverty but you know you're nearing I think you're at 100 electrification you're nearing 24-hour electricity uh everyone has a toilet access at this point um you know you're working on piped water I don't know the stats of profession but most importantly uh you know there's no food shortage and everybody got vaccinated during covid sure and and there's there's free meals on the second place production you know I'm sorry to keep going back to that but that's something emblematic that if you compare a poor area of India I mean India as a whole has the same GDP per capita as sub-Saharan Africa yeah and if you have a vision in your mind of", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-12", "text": "and if you have a vision in your mind of the quality of life in sub-Saharan Africa and Benchmark India to that of course India's social reality is incredibly better than the social reality of sub-Saharan Africa taken as a whole and that's why we would expect economic growth to continue in India because India's economy is simply bouncing up it's catching up to its Social Development yeah you know you your your an American professor and you live in uh Australia Australia yeah so you you you know Western democracy so Indians or middle class Indians at least tend to compare ourselves or our conditions with the West the Western democracies and then you feel that we haven't reached there as yet you you know when when you're privileged enough to have uh governments which change buy the ballot and you're you're privileged enough to not to worry about the next meal on your table then you tend to think that it's not enough because we are still not a middle income economy so um I read somewhere where you", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-13", "text": "income economy so um I read somewhere where you had said that um to get to a middle income economy is going to be agree reforms that will get us there and not make in India so could you tell me a little bit about that well first there's something wrong with making India and it's entirely appropriate to be seeking to make products locally and that's a perfectly legitimate and reasonable Aim so I'm not criticizing make in India but it's not necessary what's necessary to have middle income status is to have high productivity throughout the economy or to have middle income status have at least a reasonable medium productivity throughout the entire economy so India exports about 20 percent of its GDP that's pretty ordinary uh Brazil exports about 20 of its GDP Argentina exports about 20 percent of GDP those countries have GDP per capita that are three to four times India's level and they have that because they have extraordinarily productive agricultural sectors that is in those countries agriculture is a leading industry yeah they", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-14", "text": "those countries agriculture is a leading industry yeah they export their agriculture but the point is that their agriculture is productive and other sectors are less productive so the manufacturing sector in well in Brazil is not so bad in Argentina the manufacturing sector is notoriously very low productivity uh because there are lots of regulatory barriers and Union barriers to uh to manufacturing now you can contrast that with East Asia in East Asia exports is a percent of GDP tend to be more like 40 percent of GDP for China it's around 40 or Mexico Mexico is an export driven economy and their exports are about 40 percent of GDP now China and Mexico have the same GDP per capita again in rough terms as Argentina and Brazil they're just different models the most efficient sector in Mexico is the export sector and agriculture is lagging behind and keeping the economy back so the route to Middle income status simply is simply requires that the economy as a whole be productive at the level of roughly ten thousand dollars per", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-15", "text": "at the level of roughly ten thousand dollars per person per year if that's what the economy as a whole is producing okay you'll reach middle income status there's no one route to that and given the size of the average did you say ten thousand dollars yeah roughly ten thousand dollars GDP per cap but it would be a middle link I mean eight thousand ten thousand anywhere in that range right now we are at what twenty two hundred twenty two fifty I mean it is growing so fast I don't know the exact number but under 2500 and it's supposed to be uh at the end of the decade it's supposed to act according to the IMF it says four thousand dollars by the end of the decade and I think rather higher I think the I look I'm not an economist but I I think the the IMs IMF is probably lowballing that and not because I'm a better Economist than them but because I'm a better sociologist and then we have a lot", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-16", "text": "a better sociologist and then we have a lot of debate over whether sociological or economic approaches are better for understanding growth my own uh feeling is that if you want to know what inflation will be in Quarter Two of this year I talked to an economist I don't know what's going to happen if you want to know the long-term developmental trajectory of a country I think talk to a development sociologist the real question is uh what is the what level of economy is commensurate with the society you have and I use that approach most famously in studying China in in 2011 uh I had an article on the cover of Foreign Affairs magazine saying that Chinese growth would top out at around ten thousand dollars per capita in around the year 2020. and appearing in that same issue of Foreign Affairs was an article from your own Chief Economist to be Arvin subramanian who said no no by 2020 China is going to be growing at you know 10 per year by", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-17", "text": "to be growing at you know 10 per year by 2035 I think was 20 35 it would overtake Europe and GDP per capita and by 2045 overtake America and I just said that was ridiculous because China has a typical middle-income Society the problem was for China in 2011 its economy still was underperforming relative to its Society oh and that's because of central planning and you take away the bad Central planning and the economy will bounce up and in the same way India due to its Legacy of uh let's face it I don't want to take size in Indian politics but nehruvian Central planning his legacy of colonialism and neruvian Central planning uh India's economy has underperformed underperformed its Society for decades take off that lid and India is going to grow rapidly bounce back to be to an economy that's commensurate with its level of Social Development um countries with GDP per capita of two thousand dollars per year sub-Saharan Africa there is not a single IIT in", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-18", "text": "sub-Saharan Africa there is not a single IIT in sub-Saharan Africa yeah not a single one I mean you cannot find that level of training and education and Engineering in sub-Saharan Africa uh we can go to other stats like you know pave roads railroads Etc sub-Saharan Africa you can't match these statistics which means that India has a much better infrastructure social and economic infrastructure than sub-Saharan Africa but bad planning kept it down at African levels of output for decades remove the bad planning India's bouncing up let me come back to agriculture when you were saying that uh do you think that India is not doing enough or is it at the cusp of you know doing better as far as agriculture is concerned India India is still doing too much is the problem uh what Indian Agriculture and Industry needs is simple deregulation it needs the government needs to do less to get out of these spaces and in Industry that primarily means privatizing remaining state-owned Enterprises reducing regulation the sort of things the government is very", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-19", "text": "regulation the sort of things the government is very aware of you know cut red tape reduce regulation harmonize taxes you know make it easier for people to invest uh accelerate the legal system so stop this you know backlog of years in the in the legal system get rid of uh the retroactive application of tax laws all of these things if India simply gets rid of all of the oppressive government regulation uh industry will boom in India now if agriculture the situation is even worse agriculture of course is an extraordinarily highly regular subsistence level in many cases well some of it's subsistent some of it is just wasteful I mean India because of the price support minimum price support system produces extraordinary amounts of rice and wheat that just gets stockpiled and eventually Decay because they're just not needed all of these very productive farmers in pujam and haryana should be encouraged to switch over to high value-added products like edible oils I mean India it's ridiculous in India which is such a", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-20", "text": "India it's ridiculous in India which is such a massive agricultural producer today is still laboring under famine era policies that were designed to over produce basic food security stuff the food security issue when and it Imports I I think it's 10 or 20 billion dollars of edible oils well you know if India wants to reduce if India really wants to do import substitution economics and that's the idea behind make in India yeah make your vegetable oils in India that would be the number one easy win for India is shift Agriculture and the way to do that is through marketization of Agriculture right let's move to the other subject which is uh you know you've said that Indiana Modi is wrongly portrayed as a fascist State and you said Indian intellectuals are fueling that narrative yes about uh the country that was that was a very provocative state intellectuals or anti-india it was hilarious to me that was provocative I didn't mean it to be provocative because first of", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-21", "text": "didn't mean it to be provocative because first of all everyone knows it I mean that's why it resonated um but if I said American in such or anti-American Australian intellectuals are anti-australian and no one would carry hey look and everyone knows what I mean I mean the people who objected said you know how dare you call me anti-india that's obviously not what I mean this is shorthand for the people who are vilifying India on the international stage or primarily India's own intellectuals that that's the long hand if you want to spell it out um and you know I've had people complain well what about these other intellectuals look everyone knows what I mean uh it's just a shorthand but the shorthand I guess you know captured the imagination um India's intellectuals as a class are responsible for Western understandings of India the the West is not sending fact-finding missions to India right our knowledge of India comes from a relatively small number of Highly Elite intellectuals who have access to", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-22", "text": "number of Highly Elite intellectuals who have access to Publications Western Publications like the New York Times Washington Post Wall Street Journal they write op-eds in these Publications and those op-eds are they tell us I mean half a dozen Indians mostly Indians some other from around South Asia tell us what the reality is of India I mean our knowledge of India in the west comes from half a dozen Elite Indian intellectuals who have access to these Publications and the message we get is that India has become a an autocratic authoritarian country on the verge of despotism where elections are no longer free where fascist you know fascist shock troops roam the country I mean let me just give you one example if you read anything about the RSS now everyone in India knows assassins forgive my bad pronunciation uh you can like the RSS dislike the RSS I can take it or leave it I'm obviously not a sengi I'm an American an American intellectual um if you read any Western portrayal of", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-23", "text": "intellectual um if you read any Western portrayal of the RSS they will say it is an ultra right-wing paramilitary organization right now the RSS is a conservative organization it's nationalist um right wing well I know you and India throw around the words left wing and right wing casually maybe you can call it right wing it's certainly not some kind of ultra Hardcore you know organization it's certainly not a paramilitary organization there are no arms in the RSS and but people will say well they've exercised with loties well well that's not the same as exercising with AK-47s let's face it but but when Indian intellectuals call the RSS a right-wing paramilitary organization what we imagine as people in Australia or the United States we imagine uh terrorists with AK-47s sure that's the we imagine people or or people in uniforms you know we imagine black shirts in Mussolini's Italy or brown shirts in Hitler's Germany um going around beating up uh people who belong to other beating up", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-24", "text": "up uh people who belong to other beating up Communists and beating up liberals I mean I'm sure someone has been beaten up by someone who's an RSS member with 1.3 billion people right but but Indian intellectuals I mean journalists for major Indian newspapers are not being beaten on the streets every day by gangs of RSS youth in fact most of the RSS people I've met are overweight overweight middle-aged men who could use some lothy training right so this is um you know this this wild exaggeration of the threats people feel they face in India becomes just what we accept as the truth in the west because why would we know any different and so it's not just the vilification of we are assessment you mentioned these uh these news portals you know in in the 70s and in the 80s till mid 80s Till There was a meltdown in uh you know in budgets in in America in in all the Western countries still there was that um these networks had budgets to cover", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-25", "text": "was that um these networks had budgets to cover India they would their reporter would not file a story unless he went on location it could be anything it could be Mrs Gandhi's death uh her assassination and the riots that followed they would go there and cover it it could be the khalistan movement they would go you know these reporters like Mark Tully and the others would go on location they would meet with victims of Terror they would meet even with the terrorists or you know find out what the ideology is they would do all that then came the shrink king of budgets and when the shrinking of budgets happen there's just one reporter for what's up the reporter is in most cases a non-resident Indian who's come back to India because who's desperate to come report on it who wants to be the major American newspapers India reporter well probably someone from India you know who succeeded in the west now I have nothing against non-resident Indians I have nothing it's Indian reporters but", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-26", "text": "Indians I have nothing it's Indian reporters but we've seen this before in the United States with you know in the 1920s 30s 40s with portrayals of the Soviet Union we saw it where the everybody who was reporting in America on the Soviet Union were a bunch of white russian immigrants who had been kicked out of the country and were very angry with the Soviet regime and so we couldn't you know our picture of the Soviet Union was entirely cute yeah because throughout the entire Cold War almost everybody writing about the Soviet Union had an ax to grind I mean the most famous American analyst of the Soviet Union was as big new Brzezinski now he was an eminent eminent uh political scientist and uh and journalist uh but he was a Polish immigrant who fled communism can I trust brzezinski's view of Communism yeah probably not he probably has a you know an ax to grind and in the same way almost always when you", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-27", "text": "grind and in the same way almost always when you see these extremely negative reports of India in the western media I don't know the citizenship status of the person writing it but the name is almost always Indian I'm going to read out some uh you know some parts because you're An American in Australia so you know both Western democracies uh there's this opinion piece which has been published in one portal and I'm sure it finds echoes in various portals which which you would have access in your country too it says Modi embodies right-wing populism a modus operandi he shares with with Trump Ben Boris Johnson and bolsonaro and each of these like-minded politicians share a propensity for anti-establishment and uh anti-elitis rhetoric uh Every Man's Persona peace to the masses both Hindu nationalism provides uh Modi with a specific ecosystem of support that differs from right-wing populist movements in other nations would you agree with this comparison about Modi uh and with Boris Johnson I I like to avoid terms", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-28", "text": "and with Boris Johnson I I like to avoid terms like left-wing and right wing because there are no true left Wingers and right Wingers in our the populism let's instead call it um traditionalist okay you know traditional store nationalist is he a traditionalist populist yeah that's a fair characterization uh is he much like Boris Johnson or Donald Trump I probably not I think he's probably a lot more conservative and a lot more um reputable in many ways than Boris Johnson Donald Trump but the the characterization you've just read is really not wildly off kilter I mean that's a and it's a reasonable characterization that the BJP is a conservative political party led by someone who is you know comes from a broadly anti-intellectual tradition let's face it the BJP is not the biggest fans of uh establishment University professors this is not these are not their core constituency and like Boris Johnson and Donald Trump uh bolsonaro let's leave aside because bolsonaro is it comes from a much rougher political environment", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-29", "text": "is it comes from a much rougher political environment in Brazil I mean Brazil has very extreme politics but you know Donald Trump or Boris Johnson um for those who want to vilify Donald Trump as the ultimate Evil that may sound like we're going to vilify Narendra Modi by a by comparing him but you know half of America voted exactly and um and you know half of Britain or 40 of Britain voted for Boris Johnson I don't so I don't find anything disreputable about being a traditionalist populist anti-intellectual politician uh I think the problem is the people who write these sort of pieces seem to think that some kind of insult now for me I'm not a traditionalist conservative if I've been embraced by traditionalist conservatives both in India and in Australia I might add it's simply because I've insisted that conservative traditionalism is a perfectly reputable tradition perfectly reputable legitimate uh political position with long-standing uh in our Western democracies as well as in Indian democracy in India the", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-30", "text": "as well as in Indian democracy in India the intellectual domination the domination of the intellectuals for almost 30 years of 40 years would was by socialist leaning intellectuals the other side was not heard at all and that's the reason the BJP would be termed as anti-intellectual they are anti-intellectual so I think people who resisted this label I think are just being ridiculous uh I mean the BJP you know has been at war with jnu you know for decades um of course they're an anti-intellectual party I just don't see anything wrong with with being an anti-intellectual party I mean starter Patel was if anything you know an anti-intellectual get things done sort of I mean everyone else in the Indian independence movement wrote a book they were all intellectuals not Patel you know he was he was a good things done in person and you know there's there's room in democracy for that the idea that uh everyone has to be in favor of intellectuals well who's in favor of workers of", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-31", "text": "of intellectuals well who's in favor of workers of doers those are legitimate positions there's another and I'm an intellectual I am not answering I simply accept that it's legitimate it's legit to be anti-intellectual even if that's not what I am so there's this one uh intellectual he's a professor of Journalism uh and at this opinion the global University now he says the key to modi's longevity is perhaps the more complex political milieu of India with its many cleavages for the politics of right-wing populism which waging itself into the deepest fault lines in society this offers multiple possibilities of creating and winning coalitions the only constant in Modi brand of politics is its islamophobia now this is what it is that you know the intellectuals that you were talking about they they tend to fall back on this islamophobia part of the RSS and of Modi in particular so that is the resistance that you know that is finding uh space in in social media where they get", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-32", "text": "finding uh space in in social media where they get angry with the intellectuals it's the one insult you can hurl at people and so it gets hurled all the time it's like in America being called a a racist everyone's called a racist in America so much so that we we now just ignore it and in the same way you can be called islamophobic in India and that's an insult you can hurl at anybody look this kind of analysis you could take the same facts and I've been reading dozens of books on Indian politics in the last couple years and I see the same facts repeated all the time it's putting different words to those facts so if instead I said the BJP is a traditionalist party that is strongly embedded in organic civil society that works to reduce uh caste and class differences among Hindus in order to build greater solidarity within Indian Civil Society that would be the same account just from a different perspective viewing it positively without putting labels instead of yeah", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-33", "text": "viewing it positively without putting labels instead of yeah negatively now now is the BJP uh more a Hindu party than a Muslim party yeah I I mean of course it's more a Hindu party than a Muslim party and in a country where parties uh do tend to be communal um BJP is probably one of the less communal parties in the country less communal in the sense that they are not well they may work at that fault line between Hindu and Muslim Society uh they are looking to explicitly working to unite Hindu Society they have language that is accommodating of other religions they don't seek to exclude again at the elite level now if you are hindophobic in India might you vote for the BJP because of your Hindu phobia you might but if you're racist in America you might vote Republican because you're certainly not going to vote Democrat yeah that doesn't make the Republican Party racist the fact that someone buddy who's racist might vote for them and in the same", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-34", "text": "racist might vote for them and in the same way the fact that someone who's hindrophobic might I'm sorry someone who is islamophobic might vote uh BJP doesn't make them islamophobic look according to our best survey data I know there are lots of Indian election surveys forgive me I don't know the quality of all those surveys they tend to be telephone surveys um Pew Research Center does extremely high quality survey research that according to their server from the 2019 election 19 of Muslims in India voted BJP and these now 19 yes and they said they were not being discriminated that pure research well that's different it's different survey we can get into that I mean of the 20 of the 2019 election survey Pew found that 19 of Indian Muslims voted BJP versus 49 of Indian Hindus now that means that the gap between well first of all the fact that a fifth of Muslims are voting BJP indicates to me that the party is much more perceived as a developmentalist party or as a", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-35", "text": "more perceived as a developmentalist party or as a tough on crime party and only secondarily if at all as islamophobic second I want to put that in perspective I'm always a comparatist encouraging people to take comparative understandings fewer than 10 percent of African-Americans vote Republican okay so the Muslim acceptance of the BJP is more than is twice as high yeah as black African-American acceptance of Republicans now that is striking to me now it doesn't tell me it doesn't tell me that the BJP has been successful at massive Muslim Outreach now I know Narendra Modi has the new pashmanda Muslim uh outreach program from everything I've read There is this is the nascent stage well certain thing I've read you know the BJP leadership is aware that they want to do more Muslim Outreach and they seem to feel like they can win Muslim votes by being tough on crime and promoting development and they might succeed in that uh now are there people at lower levels in the BJP who uh", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-36", "text": "there people at lower levels in the BJP who uh maybe islamophobic by all accounts I've heard that may be true but we live in democracies people who go volunteer for political parties have their own motivations if if Indian Society if a large portion of Indian Society is islamophobic you have to accommodate that those people get to vote too and if they don't get to vote for the BJP they'll vote for somebody who is much scarier so when when you say these things do you find yourself in minority uh in intellectual circles very much so because look I'm a quads driven person I come to you not as an India specialist but as a quantitative comparative social scientist and so I'm always asking what are the numbers somebody says a journalist was killed in India I say how many journalists were killed in India right I mean I don't want to be insensitive but things happen everywhere yeah not anecdotal any one data we want systematic data and where we have systematic data", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-37", "text": "want systematic data and where we have systematic data we should trust the data not trust our personal Impressions okay so the data tell us that there is a low level of discrimination against Muslims in India Muslims report 24 of Indian Muslims report experiencing discrimination in India now again to put that in perspective in the United States on the same survey with the same question eighty percent of African Americans say they experience discrimination 46 percent of Hispanic Americans say they experience discrimination 42 percent of Asian Americans that's you Indian listeners 42 of Asian Americans say they face discrimination in the American society so Muslims self-reported discrimination in Indian Society is much lower almost half is much lower as that of Asian Americans in America now is anti-asian discrimination in America a problem yes are we worried that there's going to be a genocide of Asian Americans in 2023 no one mentions it yet genocide watch says there's an eight percent chance that there will be a genocide of India's Muslims this year they say", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-38", "text": "a genocide of India's Muslims this year they say India is one of the top 10 countries for genocide potential in the world well that flies in the face of the hard data and I can't emphasize enough this survey was the best conducted Story Probably the biggest and most best conducted Social Survey ever conducted in India this was in 2019 2020 conducted by Pew Research Center 29 9999 households were surveyed in both urban and rural India response rates were I think was 86 response rate for the survey which means you know there are no big biases due to due to like this is not a telephone survey this is not only English-speaking households it's 17 languages for this survey so this is the best this is the Platinum survey data the best survey data we have for this country anywhere and this survey says that Muslim Indians say they face some discrimination but let far less than any major group in the United States that faces discrimination Muslim Indians say that communal relations are a problem but they name their", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-39", "text": "that communal relations are a problem but they name their number one problem as Jobs their number two problem is crime their number three problem is corruption and communal violence is lower than corruption on their list of concerns that's not a country that is on the verge of genocide this is a country where yeah there's discrimination I I talked to in look now I I had the honor to uh visit a mosque and I talked to a group of uh Muslim barristers at a local Court the mosque was very close to a local courthouse and they told me that they've experienced their clients have experienced problems in front of Hindu judges where if they have a Muslim young boy you know who's accused of some kind of small property crime that they did they felt that their clients got the full penalty of the law whereas sometimes if it was a Hindu boy who had the same kind of property crime they may be let off with a warning now is that true I don't know that someone's", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-40", "text": "now is that true I don't know that someone's personal experience but that's the sort of complaint they had now that's a problem if that's true it should be addressed I mean no level of discrimination is an acceptable level but as social scientists we we have never met a society that has no level of discrimination we meet societies that have some level of discrimination and so again to get back to the BJP if that small number of people who discriminate against Muslims that residual background if they vote BJP I say good and I say good because they're voting for a party that at the higher levels is not going to tolerate discrimination if on the other hand the BJP you know shunned their vote kicked them out of the party and they went to a more extremist party that was actively calling for you know discrimination against Muslims that would be worse for Indian democracy so this is where some of the intellectuals don't agree with you is that you say that that the higher levels", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-41", "text": "you is that you say that that the higher levels the BJP doesn't want and doesn't believe and will not act on discrimination whereas some of the intellectuals including Indian intellectuals don't believe that I don't know what senior BJP officials yeah I don't know what Ahmed Shaw feels in his heart I have no idea you know interview I'm at Shaw he'll maybe he'll tell you maybe he won't but in their public uh policies in their public pronouncements uh even Shaw who's been controversial for some of his uh pronouncements in public which could be interpreted uh as being anti-muslim he seems to have been caught off guard when those were taken in that way I mean you know I'm not sure of all the major leaders he probably skirts the line most between what would be considered perfectly acceptable in America and what an American political discourse would be rabble rousing right I mean not not explicitly anti-muslim comments but rabble of playing to the crowd and uh and if that's again", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-42", "text": "to the crowd and uh and if that's again I'm not endorsing that sure um and if Mr Shaw wants to sit down with me and have a conversation about you know being polite and politically correct you know I'm happy to have the conversation but a small amount of political correctness I mean he is at Trump at Trump levels of saying untoward things okay Donald Trump has often said things that you know sound bad when you take the sound bite out of them but you know broadly speaking he's certainly not racist he's certainly not anti-black you know but he says things in an unguarded way in the same way Mr Shaw seems to say things in an unguarded way he could be more responsible now can you endlessly play a little clip of Amit Shah saying something Politically Incorrect and try to stigmatize him with it yes you could is it fair to do so sure it's fair everything's fair in politics right and and if he's going to say it the opposition is going", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-43", "text": "he's going to say it the opposition is going to repeat it relentlessly uh yeah you spoke about genocide and uh and you're critical about that about you know how India is on the verge of a genocide some of these uh research groups which say that uh you also criticize the Democracy indices which downgraded Indiana Modi uh and you I think that was in September 2020. well the paper was released in August uh and then published uh in print in the September issue of quadrant magazine and then I was here in India in November to talk about it at the India today conclave so a professor tell me uh has the world sat up and noticed that no do you feel that in the internet yeah uh no no there's been I think there's just been no acknowledgment maybe outside Australia in Australia I I'm able to reach the media in Australia and we're starting to you know fix the media narrative I think there's a conversation going no I think Australian journalists are uh look I I because I", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-44", "text": "think Australian journalists are uh look I I because I personally have those connections with journalists in Australia and Australian journalists I think are more open-minded about India than maybe in the US uh there's been a lot of interest among Australian journalists to to get the story right and so I've had access to Australian the Australian media did not report my paper but journalists did contact me for backgrounders on India and I gave them the background and I've seen that reflected in the news coverage which has been more balanced I think in Australia than it has been in the United States and hopefully we can ultimately get that you know correction out there but no no I I mean the the criticisms of the rankings uh they're used to being criticized they don't really care I think if they're criticized and and um but it matches a lot simply because you know we are this is the penultimate year before elections in India and uh what happens is that you know reportage from from these Western Nations they find uh", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-45", "text": "reportage from from these Western Nations they find uh an echo chamber in India you've seen what George Soros said and you've seen yeah and the Hindenburg report if if I could give some advice to Congress in AAP and the rest of the opposition I would say uh don't try to leverage George Soros and international media to your advantage uh because India is an extraordinarily nationalist country and it probably will harm your electoral prospects more than it was you tweeted that yeah it's going to benefit the BJP yeah and who's endlessly talking about Soros Dr jaishankar is endless talking about surrounding why is Dr Jay Shankar endlessly talking about storage Soros because he sends the the Electoral he tends he sends votes in the BJP in being criticized by George shorts the same with these International democracy rankings playing them to um to chastise Mr Modi or playing them just try to make you know the BJP look bad yeah it may make the BJP look", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-46", "text": "look bad yeah it may make the BJP look bad in Washington and New York but Washington and New York don't vote in India elections and uh sadly The Narrative of we are being unfairly criticized by the West that's much more likely to win votes in India than look the New York Times agrees with me that Mr Modi is a dictator the New York Times agreeing with you is the kiss of death in a national in a nationalist country like India so what about in in Australia how does like if the New York Times was to report something that happened nobody cares uh so so reporter Sons Frontiers uh downgraded Australia on its press Freedom index it wasn't even reported in Australia and they included a quote that uh 85 percent of journalists in Australia fear persecution at the hands of the government and I I read this on a podcast to an Australian colleague and he said you're talking hilarious he said you're talking about India I said no yeah I'm talking about Australia and", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-47", "text": "I said no yeah I'm talking about Australia and he couldn't believe it I had to show him this was actually in the okay so none of this gets reported in Australia because no one in Australia cares at all about any of these international relations any International opinion or is it because there's a confidence in their own opinion and their own yeah there's a confidence there's a self-confidence and a comfort level that um they know they're fine uh nobody believes that New Zealand is a higher quality democracy with a Freer press than Australia New Zealand is a you know for by Western standards a troubled democracy that has a a very limited press that hardly ever disagrees with its own government it's almost it's paid for by the government uh so everyone in Australia accepts the journalists who rate Australia badly everyone knows that Australia is better than New Zealand on all of these on all of these metrics you know richer Freer you know more robust political debate and so when New Zealand gets extolled by", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-48", "text": "and so when New Zealand gets extolled by all of these International rankings they all Place New Zealand number one two or three in Australia down in the 20s and 30s um no one even notices it doesn't even get reported it's it's incredible uh no no it's in India where these things are weaponized they seem to have become part of the debate but they're weaponized in the English language debate about India where people seem to be more concerned with scoring points against each other than with winning elections the biggest challenge facing India democracy Indian democracy is the opposition just isn't up on its game and India needs a stronger opposition they they can't ask the United Nations to come and somehow slap down the BJP so that it can't fight as hard in the election you can't say it's unfair my opponents fight so hard you have to up your game and fight along with them and not expect Sorrows to uphill game look Source can't stop because it's the kiss", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-49", "text": "game look Source can't stop because it's the kiss of death to get money from Sorrows um you know you you you have to up your game and so I've seen complaints in the Indian media uh about well I'm reading everyone might might love or hate me for this I'm reading Raj deep sardisized book about the 2019 election I'm really enjoying it And he as effectively complained about the BJP complain is the wrong word he's criticized the BJP for having a culture where it makes its party workers get up at 6 a.m work all day and work until after midnight and then next next day at 6 a.m they have to be back at work you know this inhuman treatment this is somehow a you know authoritarian it's like no no that's that's how you win an election and also the use of media you know in 2014 and in 2019 the bjb had this media outreach they would they would provide uh platforms they would make the platforms and if you went there", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-50", "text": "they would make the platforms and if you went there to cover an election there was a platform which had a vantage point and you could get the best shot now if they've provided that and you are getting a good shot of the speech of course you're going to use it of course you'll use it right I mean it it saves a media organization from sending uh maybe a tripod yes but me you know not the the paraphernalia that goes or else a connection from the mic of the speaker to the cameras directly so you had multiple pods all of this local cool organization to have somehow it's been portrayed that as somehow anti-democratic that the BJP has Booth level organization at exactly 90 no that's exactly democracy the problem is that the opposition parties don't have and actually the Congress had that I mean in a democracy you know the size of India where you have you know a billion plus people uh eligible to vote or whatever you you need to have people at the booth level and", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-51", "text": "you need to have people at the booth level and that is what the congress party had but you know once you I guess a sense of inertia whatever you want to call it nothing is working governance yeah sort of thing so look the BJP the BJP first of all we all seem to think the BJP is is is overwhelmingly successful electoral Steamroller all of this it's only been there for the last four years yeah okay until 2019 no one thought that the BJP was an unbeatable electoral Steamroller not even the bureau Chrissy and you know how important bureaucracies are in uh you know in so-called third world the whole world in India hasn't changed in five years okay what's changed is that the BJP has a first mover Advantage it is the first Indian political party to modernize its campaigns and when I say modernize I mean make them look exactly like what the Republicans Democrats do in the United States where the republics and Democrats have poll workers at every single voting booth in", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-52", "text": "have poll workers at every single voting booth in the United States they have county level organization every County in America has a headquarters of the democratic Committee of the county and headquarters of the Republican Committee of the county they're there they all robocall every voter you know they've maintained voter lists they maintain lists with categorized voters as likely voter maybe vote you know and everyone in America is on a list of being How likely are you to vote and are you likely to vote Democratic or Republican and you know what if they have a neighborhood where there are lots of likely Republican voters the Republicans will send a bus around to get you to the polls you know and if you're in a neighborhood that is a likely Democratic voter they'll send the bus around to get you to the polls they are both parties are organized as vote machines to get their people to the polls and to get people voting they still have to get that act together about results though oh look that's not the party", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-53", "text": "about results though oh look that's not the party see oh no I said the earnings are highly professional and the reason we have so many problems with elections in America is that elections are local so you don't vote in a U.S election yeah you vote in Most states you vote in like a Pennsylvania or a Maryland election and in some states you're voting in an you know abbotsville Missouri election a couple of Elections there and believe me I still cannot get parties parties are modern political organizations India only has one modern political organization that's the BJP from what I've heard from people the AAP has started yeah in that direction uh but a modern political organization doesn't have a first family isn't based on getting a cast to vote for them isn't based on getting people of you know only minority religion to vote for them a modern political party fights hard for every single vote in the country in an organized way trying to reach everyone maximize its vote among every single person using I using modern I.T", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-54", "text": "vote among every single person using I using modern I.T Tools in India that means the WhatsApp groups in the U.S you know they're different tools you know Facebook may be more important in the United States but a modern political party uses all of the available 21st century Information Technology tools has a list of every voter has a likelihood or probability next to that voter now I I doubt any party in India other than the BJP has a list of you know more than 100 million voter in BJP probably has a list of 500 million voters uh and right next to them a probability of voting for US based on a statistical model well you can't beat a party that has that unless you also have that if you're if you're running elections on the basis of you know oh our you know our friends so and so is a long time supporter let's get him in oh people in this District love this person no no you know polling I.T organization at the ground level uh in America we call it the ground game", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-55", "text": "level uh in America we call it the ground game this is what wins elections now before anyone was doing that in India you could win with those old methods yeah but once somebody does it anyone who wants to compete has to orient yourself yeah and you can't just say it's unfair yeah you can't just say it's unfair for one party to want someone's vote more than you do yeah you have you can't say it's unfair you have to up your gaming and get to work sure you know you spend a lot of time with young students uh you know research students so Professor I want to ask you is there Curiosity about New India in Australia in America when you meet with students the curiosity is coming from Indians and so I have um India or South Asian students actually at this point all of my uh research students are from South Asia which is a transition if 10 years ago all my research students were Chinese okay and but this just reflects the fact that I've been studying India and Indian", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-56", "text": "the fact that I've been studying India and Indian democracy and so I've had uh South Asian students both from South Asia and in Australia reach out to me to study with me and that's gratifying and you know I'm very happy to work with them I'm especially happy because I don't speak the languages so my work is necessary fairly quantitative but with uh students from south of South Asian origin they can in some cases do more qualitative work more documentary work I should say I don't do interview-based research but they can do documents based research under my supervision using documents that I can't access because I don't I don't read Hindi I don't read Marathi I don't read Bengali so that's been a you know it's been very gratifying okay what are the questions questions that that most Americans or most uh Australians have the intellectuals I'm talking about when they speak to you about your research do they question you as to why yes so so I've become known in Australia for really in", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-57", "text": "so I've become known in Australia for really in the past year or so for my India work I I mainly been known as a China scholar uh until this year but just like with India I don't speak Chinese I'm not a synologist I was studying China from a quantitative comparative perspective not through my deep knowledge of Chinese language and the same thing with India I'm studying India from a quantitative comparative perspective now in Australia I've started to become known as an India commentator and I've repeatedly had uh surprisingly senior people in Australia who should know better and people who are well informed on global affairs send me articles they say Salvatore you know you're saying India is so democratic I read this in the Washington Post you know it says India has become an authoritarian regime and I sigh and I say yes that's an opinion piece by Rana Ayub who's a prophet who's a prominent um uh opponent of the current government in India uh you shouldn't take it too", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-58", "text": "government in India uh you shouldn't take it too seriously or they say look I've read this in the Wall Street Journal and Wall Street Journal says Indian democracies are threat and I say yes that's Sonata Dume who is uh not resident Indian is he American Indian origin Indian origin Indian origin intellectual at the Cato Institute who's very keenly interested in Indian politics there's they don't see the author of the one from the Wall Street Journal which is from a uh a Bengali uh I'm going to blank on the name he authored a book called uh to kill a democracy India's passage to despotism and you know people sent me his op-ed in the New York Times They said New York Times says India has now become a despotic regime and I say yeah you know don't take that too seriously yeah again that's a Bengali communist who's you know a very opposed to the current government in India so what they what they don't see the names of the authors names of the author means", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-59", "text": "the names of the authors names of the author means nothing to them yeah article appears in the New York Times that seems authoritative and in their minds I mean in most people's minds the New York Times sent some fact-finding journalists to India to find out the truth they don't realize that this is just Indian opinion being recycled through the New York Times being cycled through the Washington Post being cycled through the Wall Street Journal and so unfortunately most uh Australian thought leaders get their understanding of India from these kinds of sources um and I've had it's been a lot of work convincing them that no you're reading highly biased accounts and let me tell you about India and it it's it's very difficult for them to accept that there's something wrong you know and what's funny is these are the same people who if if I told if I sent them an article about Donald Trump from The Washington Post they would write it off they'd say oh yeah The Washington Post everyone knows they're you know a", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-60", "text": "The Washington Post everyone knows they're you know a bunch of liberals you know and hate Donald Trump um but for India they take it at face value because they have no other knowledge of India I mean they feel they feel confident making their own judgments about American politics about British politics but when it comes to India same as if you read an article in the New York Times about the politics of Mali in West Africa who knows you know exactly if the New York Times says the president of Mali is this this and this yes would you say oh I've got to do more research on Molly I better subscribe to one or two Malian newspapers what should Indian media do or what should to get authentic voices out uh if I could advise the ministry of external Affairs again if Dr Jay Shankar wants to come in for a chat uh I would say stop being so defensive uh you know Dr Jai Shankar always stands up for India and that plays very well for India that's not", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-61", "text": "India and that plays very well for India that's not very Charming to his audience he doesn't do a lot of work to Charm Western audiences into being you know sympathetic to endure or pro-india and I would encourage him to get a list of speakers at every consulate to be ready to speak to issues whenever India is in the news and introduce them to journalists so find um mostly probably NRI in Indian professors now it'd be difficult in the social sciences but you could find management professors engineering professors people at Eminence universities who would be ready to talk on Indian Affairs to the likes of you know the New York Times Wall Street Journal Etc who are just ready to be speakers to explain issues in India from a broadly sympathetic again not a government spokesman we're not talking about the consulate maintaining lists of yeah you know BJP official spokespeople but instead people who are well respected who have highly reputable positions and given India's Tech success and", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-62", "text": "reputable positions and given India's Tech success and and Science and and Engineering success there are a lot of eminent Indian professors at Western universities who may not be social science professors but nonetheless if you're a professor at Yale if you're the professor at Stanford the fact that you're a computer science Professor really just goes below the radar foreign buys it oh yeah China buys its positive coverage they they go at the highest level they provide so for example there are China they're very expensive Chinese advertising supplements in most of the major newspapers in the US they pay millions for these supplements everyone throws them out yeah okay but so then what's the point but U.S newspapers are very reluctant to CR I mean they do when they have to sure but so the news reporting will criticize China they may tone it down a little but they don't carry a lot of anti-china op-eds no you won't say that don't you see it but it's not a lot out of it no", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-63", "text": "it but it's not a lot out of it no because losing that China Daily advertising supplement is a big Financial hit yes um not only that you won't find a lot of anti-china op-eds Because The China Study centers in the United States and Australia are almost all staffed with people who while not necessarily pro-regime are circumspect they don't want to lose access to China they want to be able to visit regularly so they're muted even at academic institutions everywhere you can't find I mean uh Austria most Australian universities have some kind of China Study Center and it's rare at any of them to find anyone who is critical grants and donations come also now well I've wrote a whole book on this so I can talk endlessly about how Chinese influence Works in Western universities you get my 2021 book Australia's universities can they reform which has a whole chapter on it um but China goes in at the highest level its approach is by the peak level so don't worry about", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-64", "text": "is by the peak level so don't worry about convincing professors to be on your side by the Vice Chancellor you know give the vice Chancellor okay and again it's not a bribe I shouldn't say buy the vice Chancellor but no yeah give the vice Chancellor something he needs like give give the vice chance which he or she needs give her a a campus in China where you provide the land for free and offer to get lucrative Consulting contracts for the campus in China well amazing you know Vice chancellors love that they don't want to lose that so they're just very worried and they have their in every Australian University and many U.S universities has their uh public relations staff just they have a you know you can buy in the Press clipping services tell us if try if any of their professors mentioned China gets reported back up to the vice Chancellor's office not the vice Chancellor personally because it's it's it's seen as a critical reputational issue for the University now the", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-65", "text": "a critical reputational issue for the University now the same professor at the University says India is a dictatorship no one cares which is why you will not see any reporting on xinjiang you will not see anything about atrocities you see the reporting the New York Times the New York Times broke the story on genocide in xinjiang and full credit I mean let's not let's not or even Hong Kong the media let's not exaggerate what they do is they mitigate they add qualifiers they don't talk about it too much they report it and the Western media reports negative things happening in China but they only reported to the extent they have to so for example look at the persecution of falun gong in China which is very serious I mean this is really crazy stuff I mean the organ harvesting which is extremely well documented that you know falun gong members in China are vivisected and have their organs removed you know to create a transplant market for export I mean people literally can go", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-66", "text": "market for export I mean people literally can go to China and just get an organ your liver is failing go to China pay the money you get a falun Gong members liver right I mean it's horrific yeah this doesn't get reported right the the big headline stuff that you can't ignore uyghur oppression concentration camps can't ignore it it gets reported but but when you get below that level lots of stuff that would be reported if it happened in India I mean if there were allegations in India of Muslims being vivisected for their organs but this is routinely happening in China it's very well documented it's happening in China there are activist doctors in America who Western act not falun gong related who are just horrified at what's happening in China's organ Market um yeah it gets reported a little bit falun gong members claim such and such but they don't put the resources into investigative reporting of this why because they don't want to go too hard it's so", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-67", "text": "they don't want to go too hard it's so dishonest well it it's certainly not honest but it's not but look it's not as Extreme as people say it is these you know American newspapers have not been bought out by China influenced yeah right the the it's it's it's at the level of uh you know play up the good play down the bad um it's not at the level of being proper you know the New York Times is not a Chinese propaganda mouse piece whenever I hear people say that I tell no that's simply not even if it's not a propaganda newspaper and I won't single out just the New York Times I'm talking about a lot of the western media they will not write about women's rights or persecution of women in Saudi Arabia or in or in China or in China women's rights in China are but that one incident in India gets played up and that's only now because of a right-wing government I mean again you don't like right-wing and left wing", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-68", "text": "mean again you don't like right-wing and left wing but a conservative I know these are the terms used in India in India a conservative government in India so it gets reported now it did happen even during Dr Manmohan Singh's tenure there was that one incident in Delhi and um it's sometimes it happens that one incident captures the imagination is that all of the incidents oppression of political opposition all of the incidents listed in the Verizon Democracy institute's report on India text report on India in 2020 all of them had to do with incidents that occurred between four 2014. yeah yeah they were reported vedem only found them important after 2019. uh and we see that we see a lot of this kind of mendacity yeah so that's what I want to know is that uh do you see a correction ever happening a kind of Awakening or awareness in the western media that they are putting on blinkers when it comes to India we're working on that I mean with a group of members", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-69", "text": "working on that I mean with a group of members of the Indian diaspora we've started a think tank called the Indian Century round table and we are dedicated to providing a factual account of India I'm pretty sure we can have that in Australia I mean we have good enough Connections in Australia and the Australian media have been pretty good on India they've been pretty good on reporting kalistan and kalistani violence in Australia not simply not simply repeating the things you would see in the U.S of you know these poor Sikhs are fighting for their rights as an independent country in Australia they've correctly reported No in fact most Indian Sikhs do not want to secede from India that kalistan is mainly a diaspora phenomenon and so the Australian media has been pretty good very open to this and we're talking to them and I think with our new Indian Century Roundtable I think within this year by the end of this year we'll we'll be pretty solid on making sure there's a balanced uh", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-70", "text": "be pretty solid on making sure there's a balanced uh well-informed coverage of India in the Australian do you think that it'll take more time to get to them do you think India being part of the quad and uh you know there is a more greater understanding about India no if anything the problem is because India is in the quad it's become targeted uh that is the narrative outside India well certainly in the US and UK and especially in the U.S The Narrative has been how can we work how can we say that this is an alignment of democracies when India is an electoral autocracy you know footnote Verizon Democracy Institute right uh uh you know when India is repressing Kashmir and I've heard very high levels in the United States and I mean you know former National Security advisor I once talked to saying that India will never be a proper free country until it liberates Kashmir and this idea that you know India has somehow illegally occupied uh Kashmir is that that simply received", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-71", "text": "occupied uh Kashmir is that that simply received wisdom in policy circles in the United States so uh no no the India being in the quad has not really benefited India's image if anything it's caused more targeting of India as people sent the opportunity to to do something by saying you know uh no the only thing that's kept India off the U.S sanctions lists has been the uh defense purchases and the fact that India is buying so much defense equipment that you know the the state department has been reluctant to accept the advice of its own panel the U.S committee United States commission International religious freedom which keeps vehemently demanding the last two years that India be named a country of concern for religious freedom the state department has held off on that I think almost entirely due to the fact they want India to buy f-18s and maybe f-35s and artillery yeah and I once told this to an Indian uh Ambassador uh he said you know I was at a think tank Summit in", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-72", "text": "you know I was at a think tank Summit in in Australia and he said how can you how can China do so well and how can we you know beat this and I said well you know China is willing to tell its state-owned Industries to buy a hundred billion dollars of Australian iron ore if you if Australia plays ball I said will you buy 10 billion of Australian uranium and he said I can't do that we're a democratic country we have to have open bidding and I said well you know if you're not willing to spend your 10 billion dollars you can't buy a bunch of miners to to promote your interest in Australia I mean in Australia the biggest pro-chinese interests are the iron ore miners um so you know India it's very difficult for India to fight this because it is a democracy because it has to play by the rules what about asean Nations do you see them looking at India as some kind of a bull work against China at some point of time I", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-73", "text": "bull work against China at some point of time I I have less knowledge of asean uh the historical bulwark against China for asean has been uh Japan Japan has been the main supporter that said asean is not one entity Laos in Cambodia are in many ways Chinese puppet States Vietnam on the other hand is so vehemently anti-china that it doesn't need any help to be anti-china Malaysia is in play you might say Myanmar is of course highly troubled and you know that's its own story Thailand is in play yeah I think Malaysia and Thailand are probably the two countries in asean that um are on the fence a bit where India might be able to have some influence Singapore has its own yeah that's Dynamics yeah and uh Philippines uh you know is a unique case because of the former American colonialism uh Indonesia and Brunei are are a bit you know they're not in this fight so much as the other countries are um you know India Indonesia is a giant of course and", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-74", "text": "know India Indonesia is a giant of course and it has its own ability to resist China uh I don't know if we've missed any uh but but yeah asean's a mixed bag it's wrong to think of asean as a single country true with a single uh with a single position India's position though is probably most important for Myanmar and Shoring up Myanmar institutions is something that the U.S simply can't do I mean politically it's just impossible for the US to work in and with Myanmar uh India has such long-standing and deep connections and interconnections and historical connections I mean Myanmar was carved out of India yeah uh that uh is probably the country in asean where India can have the most positive impact yeah Myanmar and Vietnam I think with India is going to be very ambitious when it comes to interactions uh during the G20 Summits which are going to happen here and uh you know with the summit meeting and the other meetings that are going to take place so it's going to be", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-75", "text": "are going to take place so it's going to be a very busy year for Indian diplomats uh uh well uh what are you looking forward to in your visit are you planning to come again in 2023 um I I I've been invited perhaps to a festival in October we'll see if that invitation firms up so I hope to be back maybe later in the year but for me visiting India look I I know it's supposed to be a pleasure and that you know it's wonderful and everyone's so friendly but it's work and I have other work to do and I don't particularly benefit in terms of my work from visiting India that is I don't come here to study India I study India by studying statistics and reading books and documents that I can get in Australia so uh we'll see about a future visit G20 I forgive me I know it's a big deal here I don't take it very seriously I don't think the rest of the world takes G20 very seriously I know that India", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "08fdcc6cffcc-76", "text": "world takes G20 very seriously I know that India is you know making a big best foot forward for this as a showpiece for India on the global stage but uh for the rest of the world certainly for the developed world I think the days of G20 are pretty much over uh G20 was an emergency response to the global financial crisis and that's now 15 years in the past and I don't know anyone who's closely following G20 outside of India it's a big deal here uh but it's not a big deal uh out in the rest of the world well we'll see you again in October when you come and all the best thank you so much for spending time with us and discussing so many issues great to talk to you thanks for the invitation thank you thank you very much for listening or watching this podcast do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this Namaste click here to watch the previous episodes [Music] thank you [Music]", "source": "SFqDTwXMYjY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-0", "text": "I have never ever served in a country where I was more impressed by the women than I was in Afghanistan ignoring Afghanistan Taliban role inside the country very sad to say but we cannot export democracy somewhere where we want to have it when we started there there were no women in school what the time we ended they were like 50 percent of the students were women people of Afghanistan did not welcome the Taliban with open arms they came in through violence the fate of Afghans has never been decided by Afghans themselves it's always been either decided from outside or by other political leaders the biggest Afghan community in Europe is in Germany there is still support coming from Germany from European Union I think the biggest plight in Afghanistan is off the women the children and the greatest lost we fell Afghanistan is no place for a girl to study their University seem like a far away problem but I don't think ignoring Afghanistan is ever going to be the solution Namaste Jain welcome", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-1", "text": "ever going to be the solution Namaste Jain welcome to a special edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash held at the rysina dialogues in March 2023. the topic of discussion with Afghanistan and after betrayal and migration since the U.S withdrawal in March 2020 and the consequent Taliban Takeover in Afghanistan a tragedy has been unfolding in the country there are many aspects to this issue in this podcast we spoke about the question of the humanitarian consequences of the Taliban takeover are there new political Dynamics shaping U.S engagement with Pakistan and Afghanistan and what is the role of others such as India and the EU in the humanitarian and security aspects in the podcast I spoke with Dr Kosh ARA fellow at the Atlantic Council scoutcraft Center for strategy and Security USA he's previously served as the senior transition advisor at the U.S embassy in Kabul and coordinated the completion and execution of the first tranche of the transition strategy shabnam nasimi former policy advisor to the", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-2", "text": "transition strategy shabnam nasimi former policy advisor to the UK Minister for refugees and Minister for Afghan resettlement UK shabnam is a political commentator on British politics foreign policy immigration and ethnic minorities Eunice okasi partner Eva in Germany he's been head of the office of Christian Democratic Union general secretary and first individual with a migration background to hold this position shabnam I'll begin with you you're a prominent British Afghan political social activists you were just eight years old when you fled your home country and uh that's when the Taliban came in you once said I took my Refugee status as an opportunity and not a disadvantage tell us your story of course um so my family migrated to the UK in 1999 during the first era of Taliban rule in Afghanistan and it was me and my sister uh with my family uh who fled um and as we've seen now recently um and as has become evident Afghanistan is no place for a girl to study uh and um", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-3", "text": "no place for a girl to study uh and um have any sort of aspirations and hopes and so that's what one of the reasons why we left the country and over the last 24 years or so um my family and myself have spent much of our time and the opportunities that have been presented to people uh like us to be able to speak for the people of Afghanistan um who are one of the most disadvantaged deprived nations in the world and particularly post August 2021 uh when the Taliban returned it has been devastating for so many across the world particularly the diaspora community who have I guess there's a sense of responsibility and Duty uh particularly when there's media suppression in the country there's very little coverage of what's going on inside uh on the ground uh it is up to People Like Us who have those connections a cultural understanding religious understanding geopolitical understanding to be able to make the global Community aware of what's happening in inside and it is honestly uh", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-4", "text": "happening in inside and it is honestly uh catastrophic I think one of the things that I've seen just um have been inspired by attending the rice Cedar conference this year this is my first time in a South Asian country neighboring Afghanistan seeing particularly women so prominent speakers and in government positions and I think that's something that has made it a lot more pressing now to try and see how we can make sure that we support the women of Afghanistan uh as you may have heard on the news they are banned from going to school going to University from working from having any public profile or role in society which is why we're now at a critical juncture this might seem like a far away problem but I don't think ignoring Afghanistan is ever going to be the solution it can't be a far away problem uh for for long 9 11 happened because we ignored six years of Taliban all inside the country and it you know my hope and what so many of us have been", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-5", "text": "my hope and what so many of us have been advocating for is we don't want a return of another horrendous terrorist islamist attack anywhere in the world both outside but also inside the country for us to begin to pay attention and think of this as a serious problem not only for for the country but for the global Community do you have family and relatives in uh friends in Afghanistan do they tell you oh of course my my maternal family my grandparents aunts cousins they're all inside the country and particularly for the female members of my family who aren't unable to to um to be educated I'm constantly in contact trying to see what I can do just last week one of my young female cousins who is living in Kabul um is unable to go to university but she's asked if I can find help for her to get a laptop so that she can study at least at home and find a way to continue her education within her household so the the connection and the the um the", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-6", "text": "household so the the connection and the the um the problems inside the country is very close to home for me it's something I'm having to face and deal with on a regular basis which is why it's so much more pressing to see what we can do yeah gosh shabnam uses the terms like catastrophic and devastating it's these are terms you must have heard you know being since you served as senior advisor for strategic engagement at usaid um you must have heard these terms so often when talking about Afghanistan what in your opinion led the U.S to leave Afghanistan in such a hurry it led to the Total Wipeout of all that was achieved in 20 years right so I think I I'd agree with her and her use of the terms that she mentioned um I was in Kabul at the U.S embassy for a little short of three years so I had the pleasure and honor to work in our mission there why we left I think the short answer to that is that the support", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-7", "text": "think the short answer to that is that the support for the Afghan Mission among the American public was veining and it has been 20 years and I think the public American public that is didn't see a way out of it and saw this a never-ending ever going sort of a military campaign or at least a military presence so both president Trump and President Biden I think were looking for a way out got the way out it was certainly something that most of the military and the civilian folks that had served in Afghanistan took it very hard including myself I think the way we left was dishonorable perhaps and certainly a one can talk about a betrayal but that's a use but I have to say is a betrayal more of our own Vision our own ambition but we never made a promise to Afghanistan that will always be there so that the promise to Afghanistan was to help Afghanistan stand on its feet and after 20 years not being able to do so people said we'll cut", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-8", "text": "not being able to do so people said we'll cut our losses and leave now this argument could be made that we should have stayed there longer I certainly made that argument and believe in that particular case but but you're a democratic country and you respond to people there are having said that I want to make a couple of points I think just to go off it one that it is probably one of the worst sort of the top three big Refugee humanitarian crisis Syria Venezuela Afghanistan it's kind of if you look at the U.N HCR reports there are about six million people since 2021 since we left have been displaced about half of them are internally within Afghanistan about 2.5 have went refugees outside most of them are in Pakistan and Iran followed by turkey and Germany and the rest and almost 80 percent of them are women and children of after 6 million displaced so um and and the biggest sort of humanitarian crisis is one of hunger and starvation I mean even on", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-9", "text": "one of hunger and starvation I mean even on a when we were there uh for in the Hunger issue and being able to get the nutrient value was was tough even with the American presence when we were there it's a country that takes its caloric intake is heaviest on Wheats as a non-eating country it eats a lot it Imports a lot of not only wheat but Milling from Pakistan other places so the there's the humanitarian crisis and related to that there is also a food security crisis which is further and for all of us who especially in this sort of liberal era where people talk a lot about women's rights and others I think the biggest plight in Afghanistan is off the women the children and the greatest lost we fell was I mean one of the things we used to often say but what was the great uh you know assets what have you done in Afghanistan the most important thing we always said was when we started there there were no women in school while the time we", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-10", "text": "there were no women in school while the time we ended there were like 50 of the students were women so you had all this and Afghanistan is a younger country and then India so you know 70 80 percent of them are under 25 30 years old so most of that people have only seen life with U.S presence in the country with having internet and all the rest and the school and the opening and so for them to take this shock all of a sudden is actually substantially more dark and Stark than it was in the previous era so because they had more and they lost more than the last go-around so by every stretch of imagination it's a something that we can all take a collective responsibility that we weren't able to do it most responsibility lies on Afghan rulers and Afghan leaders because at the end of the day it wasn't Americans or NATO or the Coalition it was really Afghan leaders who let Afghan but Afghan young population was let down yes I think by us all okay I'm", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-11", "text": "let down yes I think by us all okay I'm going to get to the Betrayal part later in the podcast Eunice I'll come to you um the food security part that Kosh mentioned and uh so did shabnam you know they need food right the most important part is that the basics they need um Germany recently pledged an aid of 90 million euros and uh even as a report came out that 24 million of guns they need immediate help now yesterday I did a podcast in which uh there was a journalist and what she said was that the aid is not reaching the Afghans how to stem this how to stem this problem this is the biggest problem I think that we have from the German perspective from the European perspective this is exactly that we have been doing for the last years since the US have been there over 45 Nations have been in Afghanistan we haven't helped them so much um educate enable soldiers democracy Etc this one thing that we have learned very sad to say", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-12", "text": "one thing that we have learned very sad to say but we cannot export democracy somewhere where we want to have it that's the first thing and the second thing if we have been seeing and why this fail of Afghanistan came so fast of those two days or three days is because the whole help that we have been doing for the Afghan National Army it have been so corrupt people haven't know if they get paid or not paid giving them so many weapons Etc they also the Taliban reached those weapons that we have sending for the Afghan National Army and the same is also with the food security that you have been talking about now is that we are helping the Afghans and we want to help them this and willing also from the European perspective also if you can't see that outside of Europe but there is a willing to help the Afghans but also the truth is we don't know who's reaching this help on not switching this app so this is sadly to say and I think this", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-13", "text": "so this is sadly to say and I think this is the one thing that we have worked on that there were mistakes made uh which you know we discussed this uh right at the beginning that you know the the weapons that is falling in the hands now there's Narco trade there's all kinds of things which are happening if we if we focus on the things which went wrong uh and the Afghans pay the price for it you know Pakistan's interference for example um what do you think that you know where all did the West go wrong um with regard to Pakistan using Afghanistan as a backyard using military uh their military to Taliban contact and that continues even now take probably more than 30 minutes that we've got here to discuss and it's been talked about a lot so I don't want to rehash sure but what about now let's see now let's not talk about the past has the West which is like including Europe uh has America learned from those lessons or have they just washed", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-14", "text": "learned from those lessons or have they just washed their hands off that we can't deal with this anymore no I think one of the things we're very good at especially our military is about Lessons Learned so I think you know one can look at in real time the changes that were made in our military posture in a civil coordination in both Iraq and Afghanistan I think that's exemplary a huge fan of that but so of course our military has taken and taken a lot of lessons from so the kinetic part of it but again Afghanistan was not a military failure it was a political diplomatic failure so I think it's important to mention both Iraq and Afghanistan often are couched as if American military-led and somehow led the nation of the world down they won every task that was given to them it was the Diplomatic political solution at the end of it which I think there's a lot to be desired and certainly the deal that was made started by on the president Trump and then", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-15", "text": "was made started by on the president Trump and then by concluded with President Biden I think diplomatically which is basically said we need to leave Taliban we need to really leave and we'll take your word that you'll be good that to what you stale us will do it especially on women's right and then didn't pan out and nobody really had dealt with Taliban or broadly of Afghanistan for the last 20 years should have believed it or had any ground to believe it having but having left on this issue now we are kind of not in a particular position to bilaterally engage with Afghanistan largely because of Taliban so the way of Engagement in Afghanistan today is primarily through U.N or multilateral agencies either it's the unhcr either it's world food program those are the entity to do so and that's on the humanitarian side of stuff again we cannot have back to my political argument you keep losing they keep lying to you and you still start making a deal and so we", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-16", "text": "and you still start making a deal and so we can so it had this Taliban particular deal now they've they said they will take care of the rights that were provided to the women they did not education initially they did it now they're even drawing from it so then working with them and providing support further just undermines your own engagement and it doesn't lead to any effective results sure humanitarian side I think substantially the way the West is already working at that is through un through the World Bank through the Asian the open bank to the where's appropriate the second element is now it's really the neighbor and the region to provide a solution more than Europe or west even so it depends on how much our Central Asian countries willing to step in they haven't relatively speaking with their refugees and the support as much as Pakistan and Iran have been the biggest sort of so a regional solution for Afghanistan is probably the way to go and we can support that perhaps okay you know when we talk about", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-17", "text": "support that perhaps okay you know when we talk about the failures to the people of a country especially Afghanistan it doesn't matter whether it was a military success but a political failure military success but a diplomatic failure as far as they are concerned there's no food on the table not even a table there's no food the children can't go to school the women can't go to work they can't go to school they can't go to colleges so so you know it's it's a failure all around one how what is the solution to that because the world seems at you know there's there's a fatigue which has come in nobody wants to discuss it even at at uh seminars and conferences Afghanistan has just fallen off the map everybody's talking about the Ukrainian conflict or Central Asia but this has to really fallen off that the high table let me say that um is a regional solution possible even even if you see it in security terms there is no one view on the on", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-18", "text": "security terms there is no one view on the on this because when the security Conference was held in December everybody in the region has a different boy whether it's Uzbekistan Pakistan India Iran everybody in this area has a different solution to uh Afghanistan yes yes um thank you well look I think first and foremost we are 18 months in since the Taliban takeover and I think one of the reasons why there is so much fatigue confusion as to what the solution would be is people's understanding of the Taliban now the the regular response I get is this is an Afghan problem it is now up to the de facto Afghan authorities to figure out a way out through this this mess and support its people however when it comes to the country itself even when it was the Doha peace process between the US and the Taliban and you know going back Generations the fate of Afghans has never been decided by Afghans uh themselves it's always been either decided from outside or by other political leaders", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-19", "text": "been either decided from outside or by other political leaders and the global community and that is where the problem is the people of Afghanistan did not welcome the Taliban with open arms they were not elected they didn't go enter the country um through the will of the people they were they came in through violence and through fear which is what their what did which which is what their tool is today in order to be able to control a country now you mentioned some of the really good points around humanitarian issues I mean for example 20 almost 28.3 million uh people the UN has reported is on the brink of starvation there's displacement uh 75 of the population is under 25 which makes it a very young country that has not lived through the first era of Taliban rule so this is all very new um and so if we're expecting the people of the country to figure out a solution we need to first of all acknowledge what their will is and what what their way out is people compare Afghanistan to Ukraine", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-20", "text": "their way out is people compare Afghanistan to Ukraine and other countries Ukraine you provided weapons billions of Aid to fight how can we expect the people of Afghanistan to fight for their rights on an empty stomach with no weapons when weapons were collected actually the men of the Taliban came returned to Afghanistan in August that went house to house took everyone's weapons so no one can form any sort of form of resistance or social change or actively stand up for their rights um so I think I agree very much so that the Western interest has sort of diminished and I think for many people inside the country the expectation now now is to see muslim-majority countries to stand up and to speak up for the people that this is not Islamic what you're doing to the people of Afghanistan whether it's on education on work on compulsory hijab on all these sort of every aspect of a person's life this is not what Islam teaches because there are many as you I hope you will agree Muslim countries around", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-21", "text": "as you I hope you will agree Muslim countries around the world where Women's Rights human rights are respected um and actually today Amnesty International has um called for an urgent independent uh investigative mechanisms to be put in place to investigate the human rights violations that have taken place over the last couple of uh of months um so there is clearly I mean in the 21st century it is a human tragedy that this is taking place in the heart of Asia um and so for a solution to be made we need to start engaging with the people uh what people are frustrated in seeing as well is that when U.N delegates um visit Afghanistan to put pressure on the Taliban to meet with the Taliban they're not meeting with the women who are out on the streets risking their lives protesting uh every few months uh for for their for their right to education or for their right to work with the slogan work food Freedom um we're still it's we don't seem to learn from our", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-22", "text": "still it's we don't seem to learn from our mistakes we're still repeating the same thing that we did over the last 20 years or in terms of the history of Afghanistan the people don't seem to matter and that's where that sense of betrayal and heartache comes from when will the International Community recognize what the will of the people is and I think that's what's something we need to start recognizing and take into account you just have a question back so which country do you see to to lead this if when you when you was talking about Muslim countries need to stood up and say so whom do you seen that so if you take names I mean of course which country Qatar for example I see I would think why doesn't OIC step in yeah why why always look towards the EU or towards America why not there are rich countries in the organization of Islamic countries yes absolutely that's right but I don't think it's a good idea to make it as a religious religion problem would you say", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-23", "text": "make it as a religious religion problem would you say that those countries who are having the same religion should get take more care about it or not I what I'm what I was missing now is what kind of role the Afghans in Afghanistan what kind of food they can take care of what kind of what they can do now this is what I was missing so is there anything that Afghanistan they can't do anything in the country how can you do something with an empty stomach and nothing to fight for it's it's unrealistic and I think that's what the frustration is comes from how does the world expect the people inside the country the men and women the children to fight for their rights when there is no Global support and when you talk about what Muslim countries stand on one side Iran and the other Central Asian countries the Arab League there's a huge Global community and I'm not saying that Muslim countries need to care more than the rest of the world I'm saying we share the values more closely", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-24", "text": "I'm saying we share the values more closely with the Muslim countries and more importantly the Taliban are introducing laws based on Sharia law there needs to be more clarity and engagement with the Taliban to make it clear that this is not Islamic in any way in form absolutely I'm I'm absolutely underline it but I don't know if Pakistan and Iran are the white Partners For That so that's that that's the sad thing also you need to you need also to see the realistic how is going on I mean Iran and Pakistan is not seriously the winner I was making point of the neighbors but there is I mean exactly and that's the problem so the neighbors also also at the right labels yeah so that's a frustration and it's not that you don't have any Global support there is a big Global support and it was there for more over the years and years and years for Global support what is the global support right now by condemning every time there's some sort of a new order by the", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-25", "text": "time there's some sort of a new order by the Taliban the international response we hear is we condemn this this needs to go beyond condemnation you need to hold them to account where are the mechanisms we talked about Aid earlier you mentioned that Aid is a first of all the Taliban banned women from working for ngos recently which as a result major International organizations like save the children oxfang except Care International and others stop their work and any Aid there that is currently provided is going through the Taliban there is no mechanism of accountability taking place rural communities are not accessing this Aid so what we're doing is this is a problem that the last 20 years mistakes are repeated again you are not looking at this in a transparent way you are still engaging with the Taliban uh as though nothing has changed um there are actively actions that can be taken we are just not willing to take those actions that's the problems you know EU itself has I think uh since 2016", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-26", "text": "know EU itself has I think uh since 2016 given some five billion dollars right so the European way of doing things is here take the money to as we this is not maybe the right way and it's also not take the money and this is exactly not what you want to do I mean you have a good place in the heart I'm not 40. questioning that over 45 Nations have been taking any role about Afghanistan for the last years and the question is also this is exactly what we have been told talking about before I mean what's the result of that what is the result of this over 45 Nations have been taken care of for years and years and years what's the result what's the result the result the last 20 years was the result the last 20 years I just remember actually traveling to Afghanistan from the last uh from 2006 onwards every year and whilst I'm not saying that the international intervention in Afghanistan was perfect it was far from it uh there was Corruption of course", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-27", "text": "was far from it uh there was Corruption of course there was still security issues but every time I visited I saw hope there was more whip girls in school than any other time there was a change in in political system more women were in Parliament there were introductions around human rights across the country I mean there was a clear change I think what Eunice is saying is that that was the path and that is the time when they should have seized control I think that's what you're getting absolutely because yes what has happened is this slide into the Taliban rule is what is causing the fatigue and the frustration in many Western democracies that we've done what we could and Afghanistan hasn't stepped up or the Afghans didn't step up I understand your point of view that how do you step up on an empty stomach but that's now right that that window of opportunity that was there that didn't happen gosh this I need to come back to Pakistan I will come back to", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-28", "text": "to come back to Pakistan I will come back to you because you're the American sitting out here so I am going to come back to you that you know when we talk about uh the the situation yesterday at at this podcast that we were doing it comes to the same thing unless you stop terrorism in a country nothing else works so America did not it kept using Pakistan as the front line non-fighting Terror and by doing that you made Afghanistan fall more and more into the abyss it was like wearing blinkers all the time why didn't the Americans realize that this slide is going to happen so there are two parts one I I think you're misstating the fact substantially which is that we don't know the threat that Pakistan poses to Afghanistan so we were there in the military there's there's American blood on hands of the people that you're referring to so we are very well aware of how much the sort of activities that happen from Pakistan over to Afghanistan the second part is related to", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-29", "text": "over to Afghanistan the second part is related to what can you really do about Pakistan and be our ability to say okay there shall be no terrorism in Pakistan I don't think anybody in Pakistan can decide that and control it let alone somebody in America Pakistan is a is an interesting uh and increasingly perhaps rapidly going through a failed State because of the inherent inconsistencies within it governing system it's a governing structure which is a a deal between the landowner Community between I think the more fundamentalist group and the Army and and at that some at some point of time there was some order to this bizarre tripartite relationship increasingly it's unfurling now you see that neither one of them are in fully control of where it heads so the internal system and durations of Pakistan are such that the idea that somehow we or anybody else can force Pakistan to sort of abide by one way or the other it's not possible even even the Army cannot do it and it isn't presence I think", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-30", "text": "cannot do it and it isn't presence I think you can have this engagement so yeah the issue being yes Pakistan remains a source of instability in Afghanistan you and I may defer as to how well Pakistan is able to sort of it has an Ebbs and flow in it and certainly it had a when we were there you had a little bit of a control but now that's Fallen apart and even Taliban and Pakistan is having a increasingly sort of fractured relationship even today and I think more so as it goes on yeah so that's the so that's a complicated person I know we are sitting in India so Pakistan is a Hot Topic and I'm happy to talk about it but I think a a bigger issue is to refer back to what can we do I mean we can cut this 17 different ways but the realistic one so I both agree with shabnam and I think it's really people like yourself who will keep the call going because the rest of us have moved on to", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-31", "text": "going because the rest of us have moved on to indo-pacific and foip in Ukraine and so it'd be people like yourself will have to continue to make sure we don't forget so that's number one and then second you'll have to be realistic when you say you got the whole Taliban accountable how we don't have those tools we're not giving money to Taliban when you say don't give money to Taliban then you'll have a humanitarian cries and you'll say okay now we're not giving money at all and people are dying so it's a we don't have that many chits to play with Taliban so the question really at the end of the day comes up and I also slightly take a different view Afghans have been fighting an empty stomach through entire their entire history they're tough Fighters so fighting on empty stomach is not neither new nor foreign to them they can do that but there is an issue that at the end of the day Afghans have to determine", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-32", "text": "the end of the day Afghans have to determine whatever the future is The Outsiders have tried it now the Brits the Russians and us and it hasn't really worked and so whatever that shape takes away when there will be a a worthy group within Afghanistan that we can support I think you'll find support again yes in absence of that you're in a situation where you're literally limited to engaging with humanitarian and U.N agency one more step though I think there's a there's always a theme at risina which first of all thanks to RF thanks to you it's I think you're the best sort of gallery of people interesting people coming together um there's always a theme that you know where the world is too U.S Reliant we can do it India is leading the G20 the global South we have the voices other configurations should come up well I completely agree with shabnam have at it tell us how the other configuration works in your neighborhood and resolve it don't always come to us then to that", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-33", "text": "resolve it don't always come to us then to that we fail this this is a fantastic opportunity let India Take the Lead work with Indonesia a country the largest Muslim country completely detached taken the least amount of refugees from Afghanistan let them Step Up gutter I too you too another relationship with the UAE and with gutter they are both UAE and gutter are becoming the biggest investment in financial Hub into Central Asia largely and Caucasus area have at it work towards the Great Central Asian country so this is a fantastic opportunity for the so-called Global South and his anointed leaders to come and find and say this is how it's done and I would be the first one to say Anna that is fantastic they got together and they showed the right way so it'll be nice to put some words and walk the talk which we hear all the time about how how are we going to do it right before I come to you shabnam I'm going to ask one last question to you Eunice", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-34", "text": "going to ask one last question to you Eunice um you know this Global South taking the lead on it which uh which America keeps saying this and even in India say that we need to do it but the global South is so divided right now and more so because of you know the Asian conflict and because of uh supply chain issues because of the Asian conflict the book The War Ukrainian Russian war all these issues now tell me what is the bandwidth left in Europe to deal with this Afghan issue now or are they just done with it that fatigue no we are definitely not done I mean you need to know the biggest Afghan community in Europe is in Germany first of all I mean exactly what we have been saying we have so many people in Europe we have so many people from Afghanistan there are many people and that's definitely nothing that we will not forget what we have been doing and there is still support coming from Germany from European Union uh this is definitely we are not done but", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-35", "text": "Union uh this is definitely we are not done but I just can underline what the previous speaker have been saying is if there is someone to support then I think the support will get back this is definitely the case right a final comments uh shabnam you've heard both the gentleman what do you have to say look I understand that Afghanistan is an incredibly complex country uh suffering I miss over over 43 years of conflict internal conflict but also before that in terms of its history and geographical position but I think that you know I understand the concerns in terms of well what do we do you know we can what's done is done uh we've got to look at the next phase now and there are lots of things that can be done um like I said I very much stress that the fate of the people of Afghanistan has never been decided inside and with the people um so I think a political opposition is already starting to perform there are people both inside and outside the country who are", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-36", "text": "are people both inside and outside the country who are working towards some sort of a United position on the future of the country I'd love to see the International Community the west and other neighbors to support this movement and provide that platform amplifying uh their voices to create a credible uh transparent United political opposition because I don't think the Taliban will last this is uh you can't control the country through through fear oh my god I've heard this too long in Afghanistan and and there will be at some point and that I think I completely agree the problem with Afghanistan is every few years there's a new system you know we bring some sort of solution and then it turns back yes so I I get that and it is unfortunate that that's the way it is for for Afghanistan in terms of history and its position um but I do believe that this isn't going to last why is there no resistance like even in Iran you know with the with regard to the hijab thing you saw resistance", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-37", "text": "regard to the hijab thing you saw resistance but this is nothing that you're seeing anymore in Afghanistan it's like as if they've accepted the Fate well look you can't the the comparison between Iran and Afghanistan is that Afghanistan um is an incredibly uh patriarchal but also a very traditional Society we still haven't seen men come out in the streets supporting women and standing alongside them in terms of Education Iran of course it's it's further ahead and the people recognize what their rights are even within Afghanistan um the one of the people that we do see out on the streets are the educated those in capital cities they're all communities you've got to recognize your human right first before you stand out you know and speak up um so I think for Afghanistan even in the last 20 years some of the mistakes we made we net into your International organizations didn't actually tap in and work with rural communities those who don't have access to technology don't have access to uh", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-38", "text": "have access to technology don't have access to uh to sort of uh the progressive uh demand for democracy and freedom it's working with those educate them and understanding what they're human right unfortunately like I said Afghanistan is still decades apart even from in comparison to its neighboring countries and so what we what we saw in Iran probably is not something we're going to see in Afghanistan anytime soon but what I am trying to say I guess is those who are able to speak up whether they're inside or outside uh diaspora lead movements those are the people that we need to try to help because ignoring Afghanistan can't be a solution we can't say it's the fatigue this is what you know Afghanistan history it is what it is um it's up to you know we've got to leave them figure out let them to figure it out you know for how long and we've got to be ignoring Afghanistan and we've got a you know this is a time where we've got to prove", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-39", "text": "know this is a time where we've got to prove we're going to be in the right side of History because you know millions of lives are on the line right now Eunice what about the the refugees uh you know who who are there in Germany what about their cultural uh integration is it complete or like shabnam said in you know that she used that as an opportunity she didn't let it uh you know curb her tell her being a refugee in a European country what about in Germany how is that there I think I mean we are I mean the question is who's coming to Germany what kind of what kind of people are coming what kind of refugees this is the first question I can just tell from my perspective uh from the first Refugee let's call it crisis in Europe that we had to 2014 2015 2016. so I've co-founded with some friends of mine and online digitalization university where especially people from Afghanistan who came to Germany who doesn't have any documents any papers if", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-40", "text": "to Germany who doesn't have any documents any papers if they have any degrees on that degree just to study online just to have be there for two years to study online to to collect their credits to reach and bachelor degree after the two years we can see what the German government is saying if they can't stay or not staying not to losing their time to study to have the education and the third year to graduate after this after everything is clarified if they have the German skills if they are integrated if they have a possibility to stay just not to lose any time and I think this is the things that we are needing if people if they're coming to a country not to lose time and to think about what they're gonna do when I get my documents to use the time to be integrated to be educated this is the thing what we can do and I think we have many Afghans as I say the biggest community in Europe is Germany we have over 400 000 Afghans in Germany and I think there", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-41", "text": "400 000 Afghans in Germany and I think there are many people of them integrated look at us I have self my roots somewhere else as in Germany my parents of America so there is always a way if there's a willing right gosh the final word I'll give to you you have National Security experience too you know the in the past couple of years there's been talk that you have to see this from a security perspective too the Indian National Security advisor said that there's needs to evolve a mechanism uh where there's intelligence and security cooperation on Afghanistan to set aside differences that you may have about what Afghanistan needs what Afghanistan wants to set aside Regional needs you know like or national needs like what India thinks Afghanistan needs or what Pakistan thinks in Afghanistan needs and just get down to cracking on on icekb on Taliban on whatever is needed to bring about first peace and security there and then deal with the other issues can you do that as piecemeal first of all it's", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-42", "text": "do that as piecemeal first of all it's very case specific so I think you never go into any of the National Security issues with just one you'd react to the system as you've heard several times in the Army uh you know you have a plan and the first thing you time you hit in the face out goes the plan so I think it's the nimbleness of how do you work the largely the impact on the security time would be to contain the security threats from Afghanistan in the region so that would be and that's what particularly of you know India has a point of view but certainly if Pakistan and Iran and Central Asia has it and that's why central Asia is not taking refugees and taking a pretty strong line so that's that perspective and I think sharing of information that's all that's happening you heard the quad doing an anti-terror so that's sort of a stuff we're doing it anyway and there will be in but you have to deal with two important issues one you know", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-43", "text": "have to deal with two important issues one you know those who have served in Afghanistan from our side it's very easy to fall in love with the country and its people so it's it's tough I mean it's a lifelong friendships in the in the sort of war zone so it's very tough to leave those people and even today help them as much as one can in individual way the second I've never ever served in a country where I was more impressed by the women than I was in Afghanistan and so because the the the the hunger for knowledge was so palpable and so dominant in Afghanistan especially in stark contrast with Afghan men who were you know more reserved and so if you ask the question an interview where do you see yourself five or ten years of a man and a woman in Afghanistan a woman would invariably say prime minister or president of Afghanistan a man would say you know I don't know make stuff up so the greatest loss we have had really is", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "17246478e7af-44", "text": "up so the greatest loss we have had really is of Afghan women now having said that the greatest Legacy that America and NATO's left in Afghanistan was really the aspirations of his young people and so we hope that through that comes the new Afghanistan and whenever that is we'll be ready to sort of help and move it forward but at this moment realistically the security threat will be to look at and say hey nothing comes out but the humanitarian issue is within it and that will just do as best as we can through proxies the U.N and other International till we get to another spot so new Afghanistan we shall have a new discussion on that thank you gentlemen thank you shabnam thank you for watching or listening to this podcast do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste click here to watch the previous episodes foreign [Music] thank you [Music]", "source": "Aehjt59H-hY"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-0", "text": "I always believe journey is much more important than destination all your bad work becomes your great stories later on my name is always the easy target I think anybody who casts Fort is political if anybody talks about India people think that he is in politics through your podcast I want to say that that I am india-centric I don't carry the burden of anupam Care on my shoulders because it's too tiring and it's too boring the innocence of coming from a small town uh played a very important role in my life my biggest fear is to lose memory and we complicate our own mind life according to me is 90 monotony and 10 excitement foreign to say that we should get guests from other cities into our Delhi Studios it wasn't too easy so we took our crew to Mumbai the city that never sleeps today my guest is a noted film actor anupam kher anupam kher has acted in over 500 films he's acted in films made in the UK in the U.S", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-1", "text": "acted in films made in the UK in the U.S and is active on social media too anupam kher is more than just an actor he's been awarded the padmashree in 2004 and Padma bhushan in 2017. so let's get on with the conversation anupam ji thank you so much for coming on my podcast I've been wanting to have you on the podcast right from when I started so thank you very much I'm good it's a pleasure talking to you always and I'm in your city uh so I wanted you to come to Delhi but then next time we'll have you in Delhi um to start about you know your film how do you keep track all joking because I think uh I've gone through such tough times when I was looking for work uh three years of tough situations I mean that was a gold medalist from drama school but over here hairstyle was much more important than talent and I was not having supporting the best hairstyle this is a very dignified", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-2", "text": "the best hairstyle this is a very dignified sexy bald look but it is dignified very late very late but when initially you lose an early 80s there is no possibility I don't know why they thought that assistant director writers good looking but a cliche so at that time then I till today I used to write diary and I used to say 57 films yeah yeah because such a path breaking film that film comes back to me at various stages in life yeah you know it first made us aware of raw grief but at that time as you know some I had not experienced grief I was like lucky I guess but when I saw you emote that role uh it was like hit in the solar plexus it was because I was 28 and I was supposed to be playing the 65 year old man who has lost his only son in America [Music] when I started shooting 29 when the film released and uh so it I'm glad a lot of people say I will give my left arm", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-3", "text": "lot of people say I will give my left arm to be again if I was asked to do because it established me as an actor for the rest of my life memories I think the way that person dealt with that Bibi Pradhan that was the name of my character the way he dealt with was also gave courage so I think at that time Mr bhart Mahesh bhaji was going through a certain Journey or because January 1984. I was trying to be that old man um foreign established don't want a newcomer they want an established actor so they have taken a new Fantastic actor like Sanjeev Kumar but you do the other old man's role so in this story I have told million times but every time the story is very important lesson for a lot of people that never give up so or tell people what you want to say so I when he said that this city does not deserve me I got somebody like Mahesh but sahab can do something like this then I don't think to", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-4", "text": "can do something like this then I don't think to take a train and go back to Shimla or to Delhi or to Lucknow if you want to be equal with anybody in the world just don't expect anything from him or her foreign was not working I walked up the sixth floor and you opened the door and he said they are fantastic foreign but at that time it was I was crying I was disappointed uh images but I was genuine and he was genuine I must say that it takes two people to make truth listen to it so I can't take credit for it it I ultimately credit goes to him because sarash is a baby of Mahesh but I'm an instrument but the fact that if I had not gone to his house you see grief has to be let out otherwise [Music] that's why baby Pradhan is very attractive as a person as a personality because he deals with the dignity um when my father died he was my best friend my best friend but I could say", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-5", "text": "my best friend my best friend but I could say anything to him about any topic he was my biggest admirer and my biggest fan who barely played silica pictures when he died uh um it was very strange that he unfortunately died with some strange disease which made him feel that the food is sand and water is acid so he starved to death and I don't know some weird thing was and he was 84 and he was used to walk 10 to 12 kilometers every day and then when he um passed away just before I had told my brother because he was living with him and my father did not have the energy to say anything because he was not eating naughty Smiley I could gauge that is foreign because he could not form sentences so he was disappointed then he called me to his mouth and I brought my ear very close and for a person who was going to die another 20 minutes his last two words were live life so then I decided of course I cried and everything but", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-6", "text": "I decided of course I cried and everything but then I decided I must not moan his death I must celebrate his life foreign way to get our grief when you celebrate the loss of somebody of course the person has to live that life a tragic loss of at a young age it's very difficult but I can imagine your father's reaction at your brothers it's not when fathers biggest losses when is before him his son goes away which you have to feel and you know my psychologist my psychiatrist says that he says men are often to Pennsylvania be strong I think women were not working but your age people my age people my brothers your brothers attached to it is something very very personal deep Rhona is letting go or what letting gohe it's important for as an artist henna I you can use that sometimes as an artist because we all need to be real problem is in life I know that acting actresses mostly the problems that we try to be somebody else that is why we are", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-7", "text": "try to be somebody else that is why we are trying to be somebody else we are not if we are my strength is if I am myself on my shoulders because it's too tiring and it's too boring and I'm not saying it just for the effect I genuinely don't feel I don't I don't like bodyguards I don't like people to helping me uh check in pick up my bag and things like that because that that's a stopping me from my being my being free Pancho roll how can you be yourself because in every role you become the role um I'm sure you must have been affected by what that actor said but it's my actors [Music] which were stayed with me I can count them on my fingers my first rule of course because it really really affected me uh but it affected me also in a great way because I all my life wanted to become that person you wanted to become I I what an amazing principle okay uh and because I was the producer of the", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-8", "text": "okay uh and because I was the producer of the film also is yeah so I literally studied a lot but studies in fact I recently met a very very well known neurologist why Buddha never got Alzheimer's uh but it's my job to do that scene that well and that happens with the only people who are not educated actors you became a father at 49 at 29. I became a father 29. well that's a believability that the joy actress uh foreign Instagram account and see his interaction with his mother she is amazing if you think he has a sense of humor please listen to his mother cracking jokes on uh on on pubg and dulari G's escapades are something else it's it's something that that you that'll make your day so tell me so when you used to do dad roles didn't your mother she didn't have that kind of uh intellectual capability as long as I was on the screen that was the biggest uh things to tell your masses and your neighbors my father", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-9", "text": "things to tell your masses and your neighbors my father was like that okay um [Music] [Music] contrary on the other side my father will tell the whole world he will he never used to travel by flight um so he will call me at 1 30 2 o'clock in the night from uh some station or sometime when the mobile came from the mobile and he will make me speak to them and then if I speak to them then we'll see my father was my biggest fan biggest fan and so all the father roles that you played do you uh they were derived from somebody about comical families foreign foreign the innocence of coming from a small town uh played a very important role in my life because I was born and brought up in Shimla till I was 19. and you keep going back Hannah for a long time I did not go back because after my father passed away my mother shifted with my brother my name is she didn't like it at all exactly she said foreign [Music] you", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-10", "text": "it at all exactly she said foreign [Music] you can't stop it of course later things changed I took her to Simla and she just kept looking and I took her to Simla club and many articles how she used to be in Simla when she used to say I'm looking okay the women they used to sit near the fire the Indian officers they were not allowed to go near the fire yes officers wives could went to the bathroom powder their noses so I took her there and then she kept staring and I thought she didn't say anything and then I took her to maal uh I took her to lakad Bazar 1930s completely different world but I tried the same thing yeah but it didn't work with Amma you know people talk about what is your biggest fear it my biggest fear is to lose memory because you if you lose memory then there is nothing that is there no I feel so sad that dilip Kumar was a loss of memory yeah what an amazing actor amazing Storyteller", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-11", "text": "memory yeah what an amazing actor amazing Storyteller uh amazing person with great knowledge you could talk to him about anything in the world during the shooting of foreign [Music] and then unfortunately he lost memory so I think when I did many Gandhi kunai Mara that I met a lot of people with Alzheimer's and um because etc etc so they have vacant eyes it's not expressionless eyes also they are vacant eyes so I think that was you've acted with some phenomenal actors yes you've been very I shouldn't say lucky because then your mother will say okay what's up but yes I was I'm very fortunate to have worked not only in India but abroad also with great actors yeah like you said you were balding and you were not you were not considered a nap you know let's get to Bollywood Hollywood later Pele Bombay Beach all of them super hits you're acting with the top-notch actors at that time did you feel that like eight pictures say one can arrive I knew when I", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-12", "text": "pictures say one can arrive I knew when I was shooting for Sarah this is going to be the ultimate for many years not only for me but for any actor okay you see that is the arrogance an actor has if he is educated as an actor or at that time 90 people were not trained actors I always thought that I always thought that Maria classifications I never wanted to be classified or put it in that slot so I was madly enamored by the person the first day when I worked with Mr Bachchan I was very very impressed with myself but all the other people were contemporaries whether it was Shahrukh whether it was Anil whether it was all started our career uh together it's not just Romancing and I was too hard too happy to have made it because I was running from one place to another place I was working day night day night and I was thrilled that I have made it foreign and I always believe journey is much more important than destination and what is the point of taking", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-13", "text": "important than destination and what is the point of taking the journey which does not have ups and downs which does not have speed Breakers which does not have life according to me is 90 monotony and 10 excitement interviews one of them will be this okay statement to make no why I'm trying to say that that you there is not a single actor single painter single writer singer any any singer who can say many um what I'm trying to say I'm not defending my I have enjoyed doing dilka doctor also all your bad work becomes your great stories later on do all the things that you have gone up triumphs stupid things that's what you remember in in films which you'd look back and you say oh my god there was a film called um foreign foreign foreign or it was overbearing it was horrible Channel that that was it because you had iOS so why did he like the film so much I think he was the distributor he must have thought that a second uh but hermesh ji was", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-14", "text": "have thought that a second uh but hermesh ji was a great person I don't want to sort of talk about him but this is one this was one of them I am one of those lucky people you can still count 50 films which are a class I'm gonna decide to go into Hollywood or UK films and you went to Bend It Like Beckham all these movies I um happened that way I always have a competition with myself okay I always say that yeah I was thinking that how do I make it difficult for myself because competency is the biggest biggest enemy of brilliance okay when you are competent yeah because when you are working so much I was the first person to break the myth of typecasting in fact I was doing Karma also I was doing ramlakhan also I was doing also awareness day it was such a fabulous so I was but I was getting I wanted to I was I'm always very ambitious I wanted to have some International uh mileage was making Bend It Like", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-15", "text": "some International uh mileage was making Bend It Like Beckham and I one day got a mail from her that uh I'm making this film I think she had offered this role to or she had wanted kept Mr bachan in in her mind so bend it like for the father's role yeah because that film did become a cult film but I mean I can't imagine anybody other than you doing that role that's because I did it that way you did it very well I can't imagine anybody else but I that was a Hindi film actor's mentality but that that happened and then Silver Linings Playbook happened then a lot of films happened that way but because I went out uh and uh you can only do good work if you get out of your country it's not as if you Central role you were willing to do my acting teacher used to say if you are good you will be noticed but for Indian actors to do it there I mean Priyanka Chopra has now become so successful", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-16", "text": "mean Priyanka Chopra has now become so successful enough foreign I think that at a very young age my father took away the fear of failure by after an incident when I he thought I had failed he said remember one thing failure is an event never a person it's how you need to grow um I think Indian you can only do brilliant work if you have fear of failure because if you try you risk failure if you don't you ensure it that you've worked with such successful uh filmmakers chopras Birds guy um you worked with the bharjatyas and they wouldn't make a film without you literally so they they were all successful people you know so when you are around so many successful people it was like fear of failure that confidence comes with education I'm coming back to that again and again I was always a brilliant actor even when I did not have work I knew that I'm brilliant to any book I had read I had a personal collection of 14 000 books and that is", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-17", "text": "a personal collection of 14 000 books and that is books do make you a very rich person in any field uh observation and I'm also people's person people are my my richness so when you're doing that then you are ready to pick up anything and you're a good listener and observer I'm not talking at people I'm talking to people yeah what stage did kiranji come in your life she came in my life when I came went to Chandigarh she was one year senior to me and she was a star she used to play represent India for badminton she was theater actress she used first class first in MMA she was just just far far away to even look at but and then she married Gotham and then she when I came in 81 on the 3rd of June 1981 to this place I came to know that Kiran is staying here and we became very dear friends she was already a mother wife she was she was she had sikandar at that time and sikandar was already there", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-18", "text": "at that time and sikandar was already there and she wanted to do theater and we did theater together with Mr garki and then and we remained friend for a long time and then when she had issues with her marriage and I was ditched by some somebody I was going with then things became different so we have known each other now for the last uh 40 40 45 46 years you career trajectories went parallel to each other and you've I think you've never pulled the other person down you know I think that's that's you have to have a mutual respect for each other I think when you marry your best friend uh that thing stays one is in any relationship uh the mutual respect should stay and you should not say something to each other which is below the belt because she's a fabulous actor too she's an amazing actor but she concentrated for a long many years I always tell her that you should have worked more but uh she keeping her uh amount of films that she did she's", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-19", "text": "keeping her uh amount of films that she did she's phenomenal yeah yeah and it's like one can't imagine a movie without you know like a Shahrukh doing a role without you playing his friend or dad or whatever and you can't imagine any mom who's a Punjabi mom doing anything yes yes Kiran kher is her she she became popular with those but her body of work whether it was so much that's true but she's she she's very good but you know than any other party she actually took it Forward she's fought elections she took it Forward I think I think there is a misconception that I think if anybody talks about India or anybody it speaks his mind people think that he is in politics uh India against corruption was not a political movement till it stayed till it became into ahmadni party or something like that I participated in it very very aggressively and very in a Forefront manner uh because I felt that it it was a great platform uh unfortunately it", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-20", "text": "that it it was a great platform uh unfortunately it turned into a completely different thing that's a separate issue but it was a great video from moved away as soon as yes yes yes yes because when Anna Azaria was in that meeting where they were making a decision whether they should become completing a political another sitting next to me and he wrote on a piece of paper on a copy and he passed it towards me no so and whenever there is a Whenever there is a issue which is happening if I talk my mind out people think that it's a political issue as far as you saying that I'm I'm my ideologically no I'm ideologically I'm an Indian and my first interest is India and now if the present government thinks more about India then automatically I am I can be associated with them but if I wanted to join a political party I would have joined it also I had heard on the podcast and she also was in India against corruption and she said when kejriwal decided politics", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-21", "text": "and she said when kejriwal decided politics she went on to the BJP yeah she tried that but then she said that was her understanding with my politics expertise Administration politics and that didn't work because it's a commitment I like acting very much I love acting and I think I will continue to do that but we never know tomorrow what can happen because but as far as through your conversation with you and your podcast I want to say that that I am india-centric IP people want to confuse that with any politics that is their problem I will I am born I am eight years younger to my country I was born in 1955 India was born in 1947. I lived my prayer in the school was I lived in a city where Western command headquarters were in Shimla I grew up I was part I mean I was there when 65 War happened 71 War happened so I know what it means to be uh so I can understand if people today who are born in free India", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-22", "text": "understand if people today who are born in free India they are born in free India they do not know I came from that ah I think anybody who casts what is political because when you are going behind that curtain and you are putting a stamp you are putting a stamp for a party or an individual and that individual belongs to so yes and I think because actors have have a fan base people base and in today's time it's easily can be uh misconstrued it can easily get into issues there are certain section of people particular ideology foreign groups everybody has this kind of a thing so you can upset uh people if you are vocals nowadays with this boycott uh trenches should start where what do you have to say about this I personally feel that is foreign and he went into a depression also I'm told because he felt so bad that it was so rejected without even seeing the film people rejected it I don't think you see the point in the the point is that we are", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-23", "text": "the point in the the point is that we are all we have all started our carriers together we have all fondness for each other we have all fondness for if an actor or an actress or a film person has the right to say anything about any situation then he or she should be also brave enough to sort of go through the city situation um I if Lal Singh chadda was not a great film if it was a grateful no power would have stopped um the point is that you need to learn to accept the truth is [Music] if it was a bad film just because of its theme it would have not done well it is a brilliant film it's one of the finest films wise made in our country I will openly say that after 50 years when the history of Indian Cinema will be talked about they will say films before Kashmir files and film after Kashmir files not only because of the cause that they talked about but also because of the language and because of the", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-24", "text": "but also because of the language and because of the artistic Brilliance of the film film is based on truth is you did accidental prime minister it is one of my best performances so that's it I wanted to know how did you feel doing that role very difficult I had first said no to the films they had started looking for some other actor then one day I was watching news and in that news uh I saw him Dr manmon Singh walking dinner foreign for me as an actor to do this because his voice is different his gate is different he is he he does not have a particular way and the way he is it's going to be difficult so it took me eight months to master boys walk in eight months and two months of speech therapy speech workout and and people just rejected it they buy they did not say it by Accord but they boycotted it the reviewers said Zero review one star it's an agenda film foreign it's a cliche thing to say but at the end of it it's", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-25", "text": "thing to say but at the end of it it's the audience which decides the rating of the film in fact in today's time pictures somebody stand there somebody's brother sister Aunt Uncle film um what do you have to sing do you think that it's a it's a fabulous thing because now people are saying that it's there's too much of violence and sex and it's changing the way people are are thinking living their lives we've always blamed the system or blamed the films for everything changing we've always Cinema is always the easy target to attack um there are so much no there is so much material available on your mobile phones today without it being something there are so many things I sometimes I'm I'm on all social media sometimes I get horrifying reels made of nudity of sex and things like that on platform on a social media platform people are making it not necessarily uh huh at home you need to decide what is to be seen and what is not to be seen but it's", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-26", "text": "seen and what is not to be seen but it's given a platform for so many young actors amazing no amazing it is a great creator of jobs it is the best thing that has happened it's the stories which were not told I yesterday saw uh trial by fire it's one of the finest shows that has been made nobody um another incident which which shook a nation but nobody wants to learn from it fires people are not uh culpable they're not found cases and nothing happens people don't learn from these experiences so these stories have to be told again it has to be told I think forget that also a part story has been told look at the jobs it has created for directors producers actors actresses technicians cameramen sound recordists storytellers writers it has uh it is amazing and we are with changing times we have to change there were millions of sources of entertainment now there were not many earlier yeah but in the last two years when the pandemic happened I think", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-27", "text": "two years when the pandemic happened I think the world changed yeah and with that change the mentality the thought process of the audience is people went through their personal traumas people went through their personal fear they went through fear they went to and something changed now they don't like anything which is fake hmm you see exaggerated is fine exaggerated believable entitlements foreign [Music] stories which are working uh well today is because people connect with it they in that time in during that lockdown they saw World Cinema they saw original film they saw Malayalam Telugu Tamil films stories unfortunately uh it's sadly it is there now everybody is fighting battle Yeah I sometimes I used to say I used to feel your film is [Music] everybody has to function this is the way one should do that but that I'm not saying I'm holier than thou but that does not stop me from praising uh somebody's work I am not for boycott Trends not at all but you can't stop somebody", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-28", "text": "Trends not at all but you can't stop somebody from doing what they want to do but if your product is good it will find its audience in fact they will go with vengeance and they will the only way to kill this trend is to make brilliant work okay okay before I wind up I have to ask you about this uh Fitness regime that you have started you've become very uh very much of some you know somebody somebody to be admired that at one point of time you said I'm Gonna Get Fit and fine yeah you know and amazing videos that you put on Instagram you put it on Twitter also and uh so tell me at what point did you think yeah so when I became 60 uh foreign a happy person more happy I'm always a happy person but I also want to be a different person but difference will only start if I physically look different so then I got into this uh Fitness regime started walking working out here but it's the greatest feeling it's for all those people who", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-29", "text": "the greatest feeling it's for all those people who are listening to this I think when you are fit when you are working out it also fits makes your mind fit you think right you you are calmer person okay because there is so much it's it's a distraction first of all that one R needs your for complete concentration it deviates you from other stupid nonsensical things but it also gives you to test your tolerance levels okay so I think the fitness is a great feeling it's a great thing I like to see my first thing is that I check my whether it also makes you eat the right thing right thing yeah foreign I also went through and this is also to promote ayurveda yoga both the things unbelievable things I went to an ayurveda Center in in Kerala and for 14 days and that changed my life okay you they um you can't eat that kind of a thing but the the way they go through and purify yourself is fantastic okay we just have to so you you do", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-30", "text": "fantastic okay we just have to so you you do your physical fitness and you are uh you know and what you eat and I walk and I do yoga okay so that's your physical now you tell me you said you've decided at that point of time I'm going to foreign [Music] give me one word which is the dominating quality of Bibi Pradhan compassion so I think from other person's point of view also that makes me happy and my father used to say the easiest thing in the world is to make somebody happy if you make somebody happy it will make you happy it's not easy it is really it is you just have to listen and give a patient hearing to the other person and we complicate our own mind by thinking my grandfather used to say because I've lived in a joint family for a long time that's why I remember these lines that my grandfather used to say don't go through a problem twice once by thinking about it once by going through it hmm and that has", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "2f7870da3540-31", "text": "it once by going through it hmm and that has become more important to us and also I think people who pretend don't like themselves I like myself so I don't want to pretend that's a wonderful note to end this conversation on thank you so much for coming on the show always a pleasure it always I think good interviews are like cathartic interview they're like uh sessions with your psychiatrist because you speak out your mind did you do that today absolutely thank you so much thank you thank you thank you for watching or listening into this edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste click here to watch the previous episodes [Music]", "source": "iFXb2qjxEDM"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-0", "text": "greatest crime committed on this planet is the idea of Heaven you're looking at the calendar images that kind of yogis their their artists work the yogis were never like that you look at adiyogi the first joke is the most exuberant and athletic human being you can find journalists particularly they come to The Yoga Center one film star or one Minister somebody is there their focus is only that there are other thirty thousand forty thousand other people your cameras never caught them I've never gone to any politician any powers that be including God asking for something I've never prayed in my life right now people are talking about mental health pandemic I know this will get me heavy Trolls but I must say this to them if you do not understand your physical and mental health is your responsibility one important thing Indians have been lacking is that we've always been accused of not having strategic thinking the world is looking at as one of the greatest possibilities on the planet we are a civilization who", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-1", "text": "possibilities on the planet we are a civilization who strategized thousand years later what we will be doing at one time people call me saturu according to their experience I am telling you my problems I will die as a failure I know that but I am a blissful failure [Laughter] welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash I have a sore throat and an allergy cough but I didn't cancel my schedule I didn't try to reschedule the shoot because of what my guest had said last year to a podcaster he said that despite having serious ailments like typhoid and malaria he never canceled a shoot not the thousands of them that he had scheduled you must have guessed by now who my guest is sadhguru a yoga Guru Mystic philanthropist and author of dozens of books a podcaster he has millions of followers around the world satguru has been awarded the Padma vibhushan the second highest civilian award for his contributions to spirituality and humanitarian Services", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-2", "text": "award for his contributions to spirituality and humanitarian Services thank you so much for coming our podcast I'm very honored that you're here A whole host of topics that I want to speak I spoke to you about a year ago we were just coming out of you know the pandemic at that stage so most of my questions were about how to cope with grief and what tools we can um you know we can employ in your guidance on that on how we can come out of it but um today you know I want to ask you so much more I heard your because I heard this interview that you did with Joe Rogan and I really really liked that podcast Joe is a wonderful guy he's one of those guys who whoever comes to him he lets them speak he understands he need to ask questions and wait for people to find expression it's not a shoot and Scoot kind of thing it's very nice that way but if with his questions on mysticism and all that unfortunately I could not", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-3", "text": "on mysticism and all that unfortunately I could not address his uh inquiries about mysticism because that was just pre-save soil movement I went there mainly for that purpose to create support for that so I kind of avoided those things because you know people make controversies of all these things yeah but still I think you explained uh many questions which you know uh people who don't understand much about what is the difference between spirituality between being religious between seeking between knowing you you kind of explain that beautifully in that so those who haven't seen it please log on and it's a very long one you can get it on Spotify but of course today uh you know in that in uh podcast you spoke about the concept of Heaven um in all religions there is a concept of Heaven in many of you know many people feel that this uh life is a preparation for the next life but if you speak say that to the children today they look and say what nonsense that's not true see the greatest", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-4", "text": "say what nonsense that's not true see the greatest crime committed on this planet is the idea of Heaven because the moment you tell someone this is not the place to live well there's another place where you're going to go and live well it's a crime against humanity it is because you're making sure people don't live well here they'll wait to live well elsewhere I'm asking do you have any proof that you are not already in heaven and making a mess out of it yeah there isn't or hell uh that's up to you so essentially Human Experience can be either like heaven or like hell so people say they come to The Yoga Center and say oh satguru you've created a heaven I said don't say that this is planet Earth and it's a most beautiful place that we know don't say that another place is there which is more beautiful than this which is better than this this is because you're living badly you think there's another place where you will go and live well all the sort of people", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-5", "text": "will go and live well all the sort of people that they say they went to heaven I don't want to be in their company yeah true I know but you know uh you're talking about thousands of years of prophets and gurus and yogis who have been telling us no no don't blame the yogis yogis never talked about going to heaven it is only the heaven idea is a very Western idea when I say Western I'm talking West Asian idea oh okay otherwise there is no Heavenly business here here you've always been told your life is your karma and you have to make it happen the way you make it happen and there is a possibility of life being cycle cyclical and you can transcend the Cycles if you wish or you can go through the cycles nobody said you're going to heaven and permanently be there in one place I am saying suppose I will send you to the most beautiful Resort on the planet but we will pick at it in such a", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-6", "text": "planet but we will pick at it in such a way that you can't cross it you have to live there only forever not for your lifetime forever you think it'll be great it'll be just like any prison all right so this is the idea of Heaven it's supposed to be very beautiful but once you go there there's no way out I don't want to go there yes that brings me to one question which I was going to ask later you you're one of those uh who has broken stereotypes you know of a of a guru of a yogi of a Mystic person who uh you know extricates himself from the worldly uh life you you dance you sing you play golf you motorcycle you travel the world you wear lovely clothes is that lowly it is it is they protect you you seem to I designed my own clothes I want you to know okay it's from natural fiber I can see yes that's a part of my mission Save The Weave is one of the projects that", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-7", "text": "mission Save The Weave is one of the projects that we're doing okay to bring back natural fiber because one of the worst kind of pollution that is happening is because of the clothing like they say an average American has about 28 grams of polyurethane in their body and this is one of the biggest causes for cancer and things like that and fashion industry is the third largest polluter on the planet so these things are happening and nobody looks at it because everybody is focused on something that's visible it is the smoke that comes out of the automobile that everybody is interested in everybody is interested in that lowly plastic bag which is floating around I'm not saying they should not be fixed but especially in Western countries and it's become true in our country also now nearly 90 percent of the clothes that children wear or polyethylene 92 percent of the world's fiber is polyethylene already non-biodegradable yes and when children wear this especially when children wear this before 15 years of age if they wear", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-8", "text": "wear this before 15 years of age if they wear this polyurethane clothing uh any kind of synthetic clothing they get poisoned so you are wondering why somebody's autistic why this and that if I say this below where is the research where is the fact I'm saying see you will find facts after a massive numbers of people right the fact is we know what it does we know it enters your bloodstream we know it's entered the soil we know it's entered the water we know it centered our food cycle we know it's in the air so one of the important things I've been pushing this with the governments to at least school children make it that they are wearing either cotton anything okay which is natural it will make a huge difference at least the government schools make it but it's still not happened everybody is using Terra cotton terlin and whatever it's not so much because it is cotton and fighting percent this thing it's okay I would say because it demands less maintenance but", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-9", "text": "okay I would say because it demands less maintenance but a Time Has Come and the richest people in the world are wearing crumply clothes once again you know in California I'm in somebody's house who's really up there in the movie thing and all that so when I go our volunteers ask is there an iron box the what this is not a kind of house where we'll have an iron box iron box is an insult it's for those kind of impress permanent press clothes right no no they're not pressed they all wear crumply clothes because that's fashionable that's the most expensive clothing so when there is a fashion like that we must all get into little crumbly clothes it's all right yeah I'm also into a little bit of crumbly clothes so but my question when are you say stereotype where did your stereotype come from you're looking at the calendar images of those uh you know long bearded constipated look on their face that kind of yogis their their artists work the yogis", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-10", "text": "of yogis their their artists work the yogis were never like that you look you look at adiyogi the first joke is the most exuberant and athletic human being you can find you look at all the gods that you have in this country if they don't dance they cannot be gods in our country non-dancing God not allowed in this culture a man who cannot dance how can he be even a human being forget about being a god dancing with ecstasy because of spiritual yes it is not some train dancing see dance is like laughter when you're when you're bubbling with joy you laugh all right it's not like you're trained to laugh naturally it comes to you it's not that somebody has to tell you a joke life is funny if you look at it carefully it's very very funny if you look at it in the surface it's dead serious but if you look at it carefully enough it's quite funny how people come do all this and tomorrow morning they disappear and everything", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-11", "text": "all this and tomorrow morning they disappear and everything is fine all right it's quite funny so if you see in one level you will laugh when your body wants to laugh it will dance it's it's a consequence of exuberance it is not some special kind of dance you have to do this joy and exuberance you feel it's very much part of uh Indian culture or it's part of life it's part of life it's part of life life is exuberant you just look at this children below that is also unfortunately is happening 12 13 year old children are depressed and committing suicide all these things unfortunately the worst thing that can happen to humanity but you look at any child anywhere in the world being exuberant is natural look at a butterfly look at a grasshopper look at anything everything is exuberant what went wrong with you is just this you became dead serious about life you're dying to live people are dying to live that's a very in-depth stage you're alive", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-12", "text": "to live that's a very in-depth stage you're alive anyway and when you really look at it how long are you alive if you look at this even if you live to be hundred but what potential a human being carries it's too little if you explore the potential otherwise it may feel very long I mean in your own experience you can look back and see any given day on a day when you're very joyful 24 hours poof it goes away like a moment someday if you're a little frustrated or anxious or depressed about something then 24 hours feels like a eon of time this is because only miserable people can have a long life is miserable by Nature not at all so you the reason I'm asking said guruji is because recently there was some uh something that came on the happy studies nonsense that is all see I travel everywhere in the world everywhere we go at least Western societies if you go to Africa and all it's different but Western societies if you travel there are", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-13", "text": "different but Western societies if you travel there are many notches above us in terms of material comfort and you know that whatever is organization of life but they will all in the evenings after the drink they will all be laughing during the work can they laugh when they're driving can they laugh most of them can't even smile okay unfortunately in big cities in India also it's becoming like that but when I land in India you will see many more Smiles brighter Smiles natural ones not trained ones simply bursting out so when you were a child at the age of five if you were so joyful by the time you're 30 you should have become ecstatic if you were growing but unfortunately the reverse happens simply because your psychological drama overtakes the existential reality of Life otherwise if you pay attention to anything a flower can engage you for the rest of your life a leaf can engage you for the rest of your life why if you pay attention one atom can engage you for the rest of", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-14", "text": "attention one atom can engage you for the rest of your life it's so complex and fantastic what makes you ecstatic I've seen you at the video went viral everywhere you were ecstatic when you were dancing there was so much joy what made you feel that at that moment I'm I was not at that moment I'm like that every moment I must tell you this because you've heard all this I don't know what to speak to you and what not everything see this is I'm going to tell you my problems now okay I don't believe this at least look uh listen I should listen with the grave some gravity okay right this is the problem people think if something important has to be handled it has to be they must be grave No Grave means you must be in the earth you shouldn't be outside you have no business to be sitting here and being grave you must be in the grave isn't it right so I'm you know I'm going about my life initially I go through from the age of 12 I", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-15", "text": "initially I go through from the age of 12 I start practicing yoga just for physical progress and it definitely set me apart physically and mentally then by the time I'm 12 13 I'm um very by then I've read you know thus capital and angles and stuff and everything I am fully fired up wanting to join the armed Revolution oh my God because uh my thing is Injustice I see Injustice in politics I see Injustice in the economic situation I see Injustice in religious things that are happening I see Injustice within the family I see Injustice everywhere so I'm I'm simply angry all the time not against anybody I am simply angry all the time because wherever I see I see Prejudice and in the injustice so in that anger I thought armed Revolution is the only way out at that time it was boiling everywhere in Southern India seventies yeah yeah it was boiling a lot so you wanted to become part of it I almost was on the verge of it their", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-16", "text": "it I almost was on the verge of it their own corruption saved me then I went there and then I saw they were also full of corruption the corruption they were supposed to fight they were even more corrupt then I backed off where am I going you know yeah so later on I evolved into a hardcore atheist cool yeah because essentially anything that does not fit into my logical Escape I could not digest those things uh I'm not somebody who values something because somebody has said it however important they are it doesn't matter it's my parents or uh God is God himself spoke or his messenger spoke or whoever spoke for me it's of no value unless it makes sense to me so nothing made sense to me people are talking all kinds of things and everybody says somebody said something so essentially what this means is in their minds the authorities the truth for me the truth is the only Authority from then to now it's still the same thing nothing changes for me that is very deep", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-17", "text": "same thing nothing changes for me that is very deep yes truth is the only Authority I have I don't value any Authority so naturally becoming atheist is natural when you think logically everything logically certain things fall into place rest of the things don't fall into place so you keep on discounting everything that doesn't fall into logical space so then I I traveled the crisscrossed India on my motorcycle and I've seen this nation like very few people would have seen I didn't go to any destination I just rode across just the terrain the people I slept in The Villages I slept on roadsides I slept in Railway stations bus stations you know I I just all the money I had was only for the patrol in my motorcycle and I ate barely cheapest possible food I ate and I didn't spend one rupee for my sleeping I always I slept on my motorcycle most of the time you know this is South India or did you travel okay you traveled up to Nepal this side", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-18", "text": "travel okay you traveled up to Nepal this side and decided Rajasthan only Northeast I did not do at that time okay mostly almost the whole country what were you seeking see I was not seeking anything all I knew was what I knew what I perceived was not enough I knew this is not it but I don't know what it is see this is the whole thing people need to understand they say I'm seeking God see when you say you're a Seeker you become a Seeker you're seeking is genuine only when you don't know you already know there is God and you're seeking this is a fake seeking you do not know that's why you seek isn't it when you realize you do not know you start seeking so my problem was this why I look like this why is this wall blocking my vision I want to look like this so I am doing crazy things with my mind trying to look Beyond and people I mean it'll look absolutely nuts because there are troll armies", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-19", "text": "look absolutely nuts because there are troll armies which will go at me but there are things you can do with your senses which you have not imagined possible such as you can look you can look the other side of the wall if you want there are ways to do it there are many creatures who are doing that all right with the kind of vision that we have it's not three-dimensional it is not it is only reflection yeah all right but your vision is not just about seeing you can see things that you have not seen all right say for example you go into the forest uh the panther there or a tiger there doesn't have to see you if you're somewhere behind the tree or on top of the tree that's his nose yes this issue he knows exactly where you are all right he need not physically see you but he knows exactly where you are most of the time they're surviving and finding their food only by sense of smell so I kind of spend time in the jungles", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-20", "text": "so I kind of spend time in the jungles looking as if I just walk into your room if there are let's say five people with eyes closed if I walk in I'll tell you there are five people and what kind of people this is not Magic this is just keenness of attention so in all these years of non-stop riding driving crazy things I've never hit anything people you know like I was writing with kaveri calling these all these kannada film stars they were writing so I'll go to the way you're writing what are you thinking about you just keep going going what is it what I said why am I thinking anything I don't think anything I'm just writing but if there is one rule that you follow when you're riding what is it the Only Rule that I follow followed is never collide with anything and still now I am not okay okay you still ride yes you're saying that you were not seeking anything but were you I'm not saying I'm not seeking anything I'm seeking what", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-21", "text": "saying I'm not seeking anything I'm seeking what I'm saying if you already know what you're seeking did you know no if you already know you're not a Seeker I am saying so what were you honing what skills were you honing or what were you what was happening then I felt kind of caged inside the body I thought this is too limited there must be something Beyond I don't know what that is I am I did not grow up in any spiritual or any kind of culture tradition it's a very agnostic family there's no for enforcement of religion or anything with us so only thing is they want us to educate which I refuse to do so you did go to school and college and everything and you didn't mentioned in the direction of the school okay not inside okay it didn't interest you no I spent time in the libraries but I never really sat in classrooms much both in school and college very rarely I went there so the important thing is human beings have assumed too many", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-22", "text": "important thing is human beings have assumed too many things you can call it Society you can call it religion you can call it education it's all full of assumptions so essentially even in school when you went through school they rewarded your memory they never rewarded your attention isn't it there's a basic mistake we've done with Humanity we are not rewarding the attention it's the human attention which opens up doors human memory you call that knowledge but today artificial intelligence is coming computers are coming what the hell will you do with your memory right now they're all feeling insecure what about our jobs I have been saying this for years anything that you can grasp as data analyze and express a machine can do better than you I've been saying this for over 20 25 years but now it's coming becoming a reality all the academics others wondering what will happen to us you will have no job and it's fantastic the teachers have no job it's really fantastic isn't it why would you say that", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-23", "text": "really fantastic isn't it why would you say that why why not I'm saying see this happened in 70s I remember this so well in mazagon docks they installed the first uh gantry at that time a hundred and twenty five thousand ton ship was the largest ship they would take 24 to 28 days to unload one ship the cool is going up and bringing things when they put the first Gantry they said what are we supposed to do our muscles what are we supposed to do with this and they went on strike they closed down the docks for many weeks or so at that time and you wondered what are these guys doing so now there are gantries in every port a million ton ships are emptied within 24 hours correct all right so what are all the schoolies doing they're obviously doing something else so these intellectual coolies also will find something to do satguruji you know in that uh Joe Rogan show you spoke about some mystical happenings which happened uh when you went", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-24", "text": "happenings which happened uh when you went to kailash mansarovar what is it that you saw there uh in at you know that 2 30 a.m that you saw which you thought that there was something that happened could you tell us what happened at kailash mansarovar see there is a phenomena that maybe a lot of people are unaware of this when lightning happens it's possible twenty percent of the lightning will be going from Earth to Sky most of the lightning is coming from there up to down yeah about 20 percent could be happening from Earth to Cloud that's not what it is it's not lightning what's happening there all I have to admit is I don't know really it's just that you see certain things this is the most incredible thing about creation even if you are here for a million years still the damn thing will surprise you and freak you because I people have been telling me about this kailash and you know this and that I'm not a pilgrim", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-25", "text": "you know this and that I'm not a pilgrim kind of person for me if my if I close my eyes I'm done that's my pilgrimage but everybody's saying I thought one time trip we will make to kailash oh my God what it is unbelievable jelly oh yeah it is the most incredible thing on the planet so it is essentially this is a tradition where when people realized something very difficult to find somebody who will be able to receive that so how to store it the need to store it if you articulate it in words it'll be all misunderstood people will make fantastic stories about it and lose the whole thing so one way of storing it is they will find a space which is hard to approach but not impossible to approach when I say this they would store it in a place like kailash but not on Mount Everest that is nearly impossible to get there but not a place where there's too much of human traffic a place where it is secluded where those", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-26", "text": "human traffic a place where it is secluded where those who really want to go can go common people who are not curiosity Seekers cannot easily go today of course we are flying in there and everybody is driving in uh four-wheel drives and getting there that's a different matter but in those days if you want to go to kailash it's a orders Journey it's not a simple thing and there's the China Factor no there was no China Factor at that time because people there is history of over 12 000 years Tamil devotees have been going to kailash from Southern India for 12 000 years imagine a Tamil man all right in that cold weather no no down jackets no thermal this and that nothing maybe at the most he picked up on Woodland rug somewhere and rain and cold and snow and works walking four thousand kilometers and going and coming back something should fire them isn't it yeah this is not for livelihood it is there's no gold out there to go in search of that is it just", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-27", "text": "there to go in search of that is it just a board of Shiva that's why people went see when we call it an abode of Shiva see why somebody valuable to us after over 15 000 years why is one man valuable to us because of what they offer to us isn't it so many people would have lived in this fifteen thousand years we don't care whether they existed or not maybe we don't know where they were what they did but why do you remember one person because of the knowledge base this knowledge base was offered in many ways why we built this adiyogi to 112 feet is because of this because he offered 112 methods as to how a human being can attain to their ultimate nature when I say ultimate nature let's put it in modern language see today you are who you are 30 years ago did you had this did you have the same skills that you have today no no isn't it so 40 years later did you have the same skills that you had at 30 no no", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-28", "text": "the same skills that you had at 30 no no so there is something that you evolve it I'm not just talking about profession I'm saying as a human being you can horn yourself slowly if you work on it some people never do anything they think once they finish their high school they're done yeah but others on themselves either with work or with study or with sadhana one way or the other people are some kind of sadhana they are doing isn't it you may be doing journalistic sadhana somebody may be doing political sadhana somebody may be doing spiritual sadhana some sadhana they are doing to constantly evolve themselves to the next way of being so what would be the ultimate of what you're doing now if you sit there and you know everything that I will say before I say it this is Ultimate journalism my job is to question all the time no but I'm saying for every question if you know the answer if you know what is there then it's death of my career", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-29", "text": "know what is there then it's death of my career this AI is called good one I'll give that to you so you would be GPT I give that one to you so I'm saying when we say ultimate let's not imagine Something Heavenly this one that one no human being can rise in I'm taking you as an example from the age of 12 to who you are right now you have risen in many ways I'm not talking about the social rise that's subjective to times when which we exist but within yourself in terms of your experience in terms of your ability in terms of knowing life in terms of grasping what's around you you have risen in your own way isn't it may not be like my kind of sadhana but by working in a certain way you do some sadhana all right or by studying something you do sadhana so every human being no matter where they are they are longing to be something more than what they are right now if that something more happens will you", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-30", "text": "right now if that something more happens will you settle no you want to be something more you would I I insulted you with GPT but you would like to beat the GPT that will be the aspiration isn't it yes what the GPT cannot do you want to do yes so essentially you want to continuously evolve into bigger and bigger possibilities so if all those things that you can ever dream of all those things if I make it happen for you right now will you settle no no you would want to go further so essentially your longing is to evolve or expand in a way that it is Limitless if those who have those who know only money they may thinking of Limitless money there's no such thing but they will try somebody who knows only wealth they'll think Limitless wealth somebody who has knowledge Limitless knowledge somebody who has skills Limitless skills somebody who has love Limitless love somebody who's in pleasure Limitless pleasure everybody is thinking of Limitless may not be addressed", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-31", "text": "everybody is thinking of Limitless may not be addressed as Limitless they are going in installments but they want Limitless if you approach Limitless or boundless possibility in installments it is like counting one two three four and hoping one day you will say infinity you can only become endless Counting so when you realize this you see the problem is not in something else the problem is in your own faculties how you see how you hear your ability to do body is a great possibility but it's also a cage did you feel that uh people who go to kailash mansar over get this realization did you feel when you went the first time that you were able to realize your insignificance compared to the magnificence of that place very few people can go there and come back without being overwhelmed very few not because they are bigger than that because they're insensitive otherwise if you go with a little preparation how to go there if somebody is there to tell you how you should approach this no", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-32", "text": "there to tell you how you should approach this no one will come without being overwhelmed by it the sheer presence of it is such uh like I am as I said I've grown up as a super skeptic I am skeptical about everything I don't trust anything around me except what I see and what I perceive but if you go by your limitations of perception as I mean I was just talking about the wall it's a limitation this is only eight feet away from me but I can't see beyond that why can't I see beyond that is there no way to see beyond that this is because our vision is right now like this that only if something stops light you can see it see right now you can see my hand but this hand is not so vital for you right now but the air that you breathe is very vital for you without it you cannot exist but can you see it fortunately even in Delhi you can't see it these days [Laughter] so you cannot see the air", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-33", "text": "these days [Laughter] so you cannot see the air but it's the most vital thing you cannot see many things which are the most fundamental aspects of your life so essentially spiritual process means making an attempt to see that which does not stop light that's why it's called Enlightenment so for young people who want to seek that Enlightenment and get to know themselves you're saying I'm old not at all you you erenced in in so many different ways you give the tools and you teach the tools but suppose a person cannot get away from their uh regular life and from their day-to-day life what would you say that we can teach them where they are that's why the miracle of online is there so see we are delivering the engineering program the Preparatory part seven sessions online for quite some time already 12 13 years but we were always hesitant to do any initiation online because the problem is not doing it online the problem is the rest the recipient how will they be will they be focused will they", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-34", "text": "how will they be will they be focused will they be there completely or will they misuse it will they harm themselves this is the issue how can they harm themselves with it see anything powerful if you don't handle it right it can harm you if there is something has the power to transform your life you must understand if you don't handle it responsibly it can also hurt your life electricity is fantastic it's making our lives you'll love it and you put your little finger in that hole you know it does something else to us so anything that is powerful enough to transform your life always has the flip side to it if you don't handle it right that is this is why the commitment commitment we go on pushing for that but now we found a way that we can Proctor hunt thousands of people at a time 6000 is the limit we have right now because of some technological reasons but we are seeing how to make it twenty five thousand we Proctor every one of them in", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-35", "text": "five thousand we Proctor every one of them in their homes 25 000 we could do that so right now we're doing six thousand at a time so volunteers hundreds of volunteers are sitting the full day and proctoring those people they have images of all those people on their screens and proctoring them helping them through making sure their focused making sure they don't do anything wrong because you have so many volunteers because there are I mean there are Skeptics who will say that you you hypnotize or there's some magical element to you what is it you don't as you said you don't take out gold chains no vibhuti coming out nothing of that sort has happened so how do you get people to do this see you need to do a miracle only if you don't realize that life is such a miracle right now you're sitting here you think this is your AI ni studio and this and that whatever images you have of it but you're sitting on a tiny little mud ball called planet Earth", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-36", "text": "on a tiny little mud ball called planet Earth in the middle of nowhere neither the religious people nor the men of science know where the cosmos begins and where it ends in the middle of nothing spinning and you know hurtling through the space this damn little mud ball in this you're sitting and so confidently handling everything I'm not I'm asking you I know I'm not I'm saying you're doing I am doing things every I'm saying nobody has a clue where the hell are we going right now which part of the Galaxy are we in where is this planetary system going is it going to collapse next moment or will it collapse after a billion years you don't know right you have no clue but still everything is going fine because we limit our perception and make ourselves little secure that security is meaningless to me I am always opening up the thing I'm always almost on a daily basis reminding them hey you will die one day what is it you know you're you're not negotiating that", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-37", "text": "it you know you're you're not negotiating that you're only negotiating the time to die isn't it hello that fear of death is something which is which can be weakness and it can be a strength too right no why is fear or strength fear is never a strength it could motivate you towards positive action I'm fearful of dying tomorrow so I will work today much more to make my why should you work like that see this is like in The Villages if they want to make a donkey run or something these are cruel things which would have been done by Village boys they will uh in the deepavali time and all they will tie some crackers to the tail of the donkey and the donkey runs faster than a racehorse out of fear is that the way to go in your life so fear of death makes me do right things why why the sense of Life can't make you do things so you're asking why so many people are volunteering doing what they're doing especially", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-38", "text": "many people are volunteering doing what they're doing especially young people if you come to the Yoga Center many of them are with me for over 25 30 years they came when they were 18 20 like this today they're just entering their 40s or 50s in that state they are why is it means it's just this that the seed of life is always being suppressed by the social norms and education everything is trying to like you saying see you're saying this not by yourself you somewhere believe it's only the fear of something which will make you be right fear of death fear of Hell fear of punishment right from kindergarten with the stick and cane and whatever nonsense fear of punishment fear of pain fear of suffering is the only way you can be fixed the the whole term God-fearing that's what you fear everything and naturally you fear God also so if you fear everything you're a miserable human being because fear is not a very exuberant wonderful emotion so what would", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-39", "text": "a very exuberant wonderful emotion so what would you replace it with celebration joy happiness peace what no it's not like that see life is not a philosophy life is a phenomenon you can either write it or you can be crushed by it if you're crushed by it you will live in fear and suffering if you learn to write it so you have seen uh it's a motorcycle metaphor all over again of course I'd expect you to say yeah no no you see you're being chat GPT now okay you've seen Wave Riders hmm are they just riding huge waves what is a wave Rider's dream he wants to ride a tsunami all right yeah he could kill him but no no if he's good at it he wants to ride a tsunami because that's the dream the biggest wave possible you want to write that because you're good at it if you're not good at it even a tiny little wave will cause fear to you so now I am not talking about being good at", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-40", "text": "so now I am not talking about being good at something you're as good a life as anybody else as much a life as anybody else doesn't matter you don't know journalism you don't know motorcycling you don't know wave riding it doesn't matter but if you sit here you're as good a life as anything but that's not how human beings are experiencing this is the only thing I do to people that experientially they realize that they are as good a life or as anything can be maybe they're good at nothing in the world it doesn't matter there as a life they're good enough once people experience this there is a certain exuberance to life you may not know how to do things that other people do when it comes to skills we are not the same people when it comes to intelligence we are not the same people when it comes to language we are not the same people in any act that we perform we are never the two people are never the same isn't it but as far as", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-41", "text": "never the same isn't it but as far as life is concerned there is no such thing as your life and my life see you're sitting there that's your body this is my body till we are buried all right once we're buried we are all the same soil let's not go there we will right now about the soil I know you're going to get there we will we will keep the distinction that's your body this is my body that's your mind this is my mind here and there my mind your mind May overlap and we may be okay but still that is your mind this is my master but there is no such thing as your life and my life it's just like if you and me sit here and blow so bubbles that's my bubble this your bubble if it goes poop then you don't say this is my air this is your air this is the nature of life once people experience this there is a certain Beauty to your existence because you are not you are not separate from anything", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-42", "text": "because you are not you are not separate from anything it's not a philosophy it is not something that you teach them you not a toolkit you give them tools to experience that once they experience that they want that because that's the only thing we have tell me what else you have other than your life rest is all imagination only thing that you have is life isn't it when did you get this realization like most people would think that oh you that's what I was about to tell you my problems but you said no no please do I need to know this after all these things then I you know I rode across and uh they stopped me at Nepal border when I went on my motorcycle I was just uh did you look like this with the beard no no maybe on writing I won't have shaved for five days ten days okay that's about it you were not sad Guru at this time no no no okay even now within myself I am just me people call me according to their experience so", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-43", "text": "just me people call me according to their experience so who stopped you at the border uh the authorities they stopped me and they asked for a passport I was nearly 20. I did not know what is a passport today children will laugh at me I really did not know what's a passport because I've been riding since I am 12 the moment I became 18 I got my driving license I thought this is it I'm going everywhere in the world I want to just ride away so they stopped me in this passport I said what is that I didn't know then I came home and looked up what is a passport and first thing is I got my passport because I want to right away then I realized I need money then I started some businesses one after another everything became successful when everything that you're doing is successful you start thinking the world is going around you not around the Sun you know so I'm in that state of cocky confidence with everything I do is successful everybody's clapping their hands and everybody says", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-44", "text": "successful everybody's clapping their hands and everybody says oh is this that this you know in the family when you're successful at a very young age everybody thinks you are some super nonsense I'm not talking about money like today they're talking two months they talk of 10 billion dollars 100 billion dollars not that kind yeah but with those days in a small town it is successful right or that kind of success so I am already into half a dozen Enterprises all working well and things happening one afternoon I just had a little bit of a break I'm working from morning five o'clock to eleven o'clock in the night non-stop because I have so many things to do [Music] and the best part of this work is I need to go from here to there there to there so zipping around on my motorcycle and doing all this all kinds of crazy Enterprises I did everything worked fortunately so this afternoon I just had about an hour and a half break in Mysore City this is the culture that", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-45", "text": "break in Mysore City this is the culture that for those days at least if we want to test our motorcycles we go up charmandy hill if you want to party we go up challenge if we fall in love we go if we fall out we have to go to chamundi health okay if you have nothing to do we go to chamundi so I had nothing to do unthinking I didn't think of going there simply I wrote and I ended up in chamundi so I know this feel very well I've camped there I've spent days and nights in Germany Hill I know every Rock everything so this is one of those rocks which is west facing of the Charmander Hill I parked my motorcycle went up and sat is around 3 15 3 30 in the afternoon like any other day I just went and sat my eyes were still open after some time I didn't know what happened for the first time till then I knew this is me this is you know that's somebody else I have", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-46", "text": "this is you know that's somebody else I have no problem with somebody else but this is me that somebody suddenly I did not know which is me which is not me what was me was just all over the place I thought this lasted for 10-15 minutes when I came back to my normal senses about four and a half hours had passed well the first time in my adult life from the age of eight I remember I had not shared a single tier I'm like this I am a close fist always never because I know such need emotional needs to cry and do this and that no matter what happened to me here I am four and a half hours tears are flowing my shirt is all wet and every cell in my body is just wet with ecstasy it's like that it's dripping then I shake my skeptical head and ask what's happening to me only thing that my logic can tell me is maybe I'm going off my rocker and I asked my closest friends you know something is", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-47", "text": "and I asked my closest friends you know something is happening to me if I close my eyes I'm just blown away like come on what did you pop you found mushrooms in Geometry Hill what happened this that is the kind of inquiry of course now yeah most people would think that right so because I had no context anywhere around me to tell me what's happening to me nobody to tell me what's happening to me all I knew is I have hit a gold mine I don't want to lose it that much I know but I don't know what it is so I experimented this what is this then I discovered this is so simple if I can take my hands off my psychological process my thought and my emotion if I take my hands off that every cell in the body just gets blissed out like it's like head to toe you know recently I was 25 at that time about a few years ago maybe four or six years ago probably one German doctor wanted to do some crazy", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-48", "text": "ago probably one German doctor wanted to do some crazy study on me and then he said your cellular age is 25. I was surprised how is he saying this so in a way it is true because I kind of stopped there I kind of stopped it I hit the ceiling there and my cellular Edge is still 25 I would say so you will you feel physically you stopped Aging in that process but it wasn't a miracle uh sad guruji see this is what this is why I'm saying it's a logical question I would ask I'm not asking what did you asking see this rose flower became so beautiful and fragrant not because somebody put perfume at the roots they put filth all right yes or no see the filth became so beautiful and fragrant is this magic of nature I would think you'd call it whatever is it magic no it's not it's not applied Magic it's a process what did you have for lunch soup whatever soup it is I want question all right you eat doll soup", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-49", "text": "is I want question all right you eat doll soup South Indian person eating Dal soup [Laughter] anyway you drink soup and it becomes a woman like you is this magic no why is it not it's not something that was done see it is done you eat a chapati and you become a wonderful woman is it magic no why is it not uh Magic would be something that would that would be out of the ordinary I would feel is it is it ordinary if I take a chapati in my hand and make a human being out of it is that magic yes but if you do it in your stomach it's not magic no because that's the biological process no see that is an explanation but is it not magical uh yeah magic of nature as I said before that that's how you're dismissive when you say magic of nature you don't have to eat human flesh to become a human being you can eat Dal you can eat chapati you can eat whatever nonsense you want and still become a human being", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-50", "text": "nonsense you want and still become a human being isn't it in a matter of few hours is that not magical tell me one thing that's not magical in the existence yeah I get that but many people go to yogis and uh waiting for that magic yes I'll come to that that is because they have not seen the magic of life they don't have the attention to see the magic of life if you pay attention there is nothing here which is not magical so anyway let me tell you about that day and six six to eight weeks passed and I realized this is all it is if I can keep my hands off my psychological process I will burst into blissfulness then I thought who wouldn't want it yeah who wouldn't want to Simply Be blissed out because there is enough scientific evidence today to show when your experience of life is very pleasant your intelligence your physiology everything that you have works at its best there's no question about that there's no question about that anymore because it's all", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-51", "text": "no question about that anymore because it's all established today in the lab because everything has to come from the lab today it's come from the lab well established we ourselves have a research center in the Harvard Medical School in the Beth Israel Hospital where it is a sadhguru center of a conscious Planet whatever we're doing that top scientists are working and they're all saying the same things we've always been saying from our experience now they're speaking a little different language complicated language about simple things so once I realized this I sat down I was 25 and I sat down and planned at that time the world's population was 5.6 billion people I said in two and a half years I sat down and made a detailed plan in two and a half years I will make the whole world blissful here I am 40 years this year is 40 years okay 1982. this is 2023 all right 40 years it is well people say we've touched over 2 billion people whatever but that's not my idea of", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-52", "text": "billion people whatever but that's not my idea of humanity so I'm telling you my problems I will die as a failure I know that but I am a blissful failure [Laughter] is full failure I wonder what that makes the rest of us if that's what you're saying I will come back to that question which I asked you that you know most people think like in fact Yogi Aditya there's also criticized for this reason that why you doing why you getting involved with politics and all you should be disconnected from highest things about yoga was in a way in recent times when I said it isn't that in India recent means five six thousand years in recent times was by Krishna is the ultimate politician and King maker all right so this idea ayogi means must sit in a cave and if he comes out his yoga will fall off that is not a very good yoga people ask me oh why are you dressed like this why do you drive this why do you fly helicopter why", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-53", "text": "do you drive this why do you fly helicopter why do you do this why do you do that okay I can do anything my spirituality is not so fragile that I have to protect myself in a cave I can be anywhere I can live in a Marketplace and still remain the same doesn't matter what kind of company I am in uh you know I'm part of the New York Fashion Week yes yes I know that's what I was asking I'm saying the texture of my clothing will not take away my spirituality I am not that fragile you were at the Nita Ambani uh Cultural Center yes there too we saw you walk the red carpet I think satguruji and in fact they put a carpet was red what can I do okay if it blew also I would walk golfing and you know so naturally something today I inaugurated the G20 golf tournament yeah let me tell you this Sports is important for you right see if you don't know how to play play means this play cannot", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-54", "text": "don't know how to play play means this play cannot see you can worship without involvement you can get married without involvement you can bear children without involvement but you can't hit a ball without involvement a ball won't listen to your nonsense whatever you fool yourself with game is such that you cannot play without absolute involvement I think I'm paraphrasing I may not be getting the right words I think it's Swami Vivekananda who said this that you are closer to the Divine in kicking a ball than in your prayer something like this into that extra that to that meaning he said something in those terms because it's true you can do you can learn the Mantra and go on saying it thinking about 100 other things but you can't if you think about hundred other things the ball won't go where you want it to go that's a good thing about a ball yeah when you hit in the concentration yes without involvement without involvement it will not happen this is the fundamental without", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-55", "text": "it will not happen this is the fundamental without involvement you will go without knowing nothing about life when you went to these places like the Fashion Place and you went to the Ambani Center you play golf with people some people think that you know that you're close to very powerful people that very uh successful rich people are around you and that's how it you become a magnet for Successful People is that true see why would I come to Delhi and go to the slums in Delhi seventy percent of our work is in rural India rural India is Islam I want you to know 70 of the work is in rural India people who come to me over 70 to 80 percent are all rural people when I come to Delhi of course I want to meet people who matter who are either in positions of responsibility or something otherwise how do you do work so their problem is their attention is only on them see they people I'm I'm not trying to be commenting on any particular profession but journalists particularly", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-56", "text": "be commenting on any particular profession but journalists particularly they come to The Yoga Center one film star or one Minister somebody is there their focus is only that there are other thirty thousand forty thousand other people your cameras never caught them you never paid attention the problem is with you but you think I have a problem I have no problem with the celebrity I work with I work in the prisons I work with rural people I work with tribal women I work with anybody because my work is with human beings what the hell they think of themselves is not my business my business is human beings whoever they are whom do you connect with easier uh rural folk or complicated city Folk Rich folk who has more more existential problems in you and not just that is it Indian American because you spend a lot of time in America what about that like in the west coast do you feel that they take like I know one answer you gave it they go round and round and round to come", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-57", "text": "it they go round and round and round to come to telling what their problem is whereas in India Patak say they tell like that what their issue is so whom do you connect with more I even connect with the grasshopper as I connect with them the love the most loud one in my life it's it's not any different for me because see this is this is the whole thing via misunderstanding the involvement of life to relationships see now if I spend 10 days in your home and talk to you we may develop a relationship Bond right but when you sit here in front of me not because of who you are because you're sitting in front of me if you ask me who's the most important person in your life I'll say it's you yeah this is this is not because of anything because this is how my attention is this is how my involvement is this moment whatever is there whether it's a flower or a grasshopper or a human being my involvement is absolute about the question is this question of", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-58", "text": "is absolute about the question is this question of if you are a yogi you must be in a certain way why are you doing all these things let me tell you because Buddha purnim is coming let me honor him with for this when Gautama was traveling during the monsoon times they would stay along with him there are hundreds of monks everybody needs to be accommodated somewhere everybody goes and stays in different homes even now we try we do like this our full-time volunteers are all supported by part-time volunteers eight ten volunteers take care of full-time volunteer their clothing their travel their food everything is taken care of that's how we see we do work so they were also doing that a few thousand years ago but they were doing the same thing how else to do work so Monsoon time they can't be traveling because they're traveling by foot they stayed in one town so one lady came to Gautama she's a local courtesan or to put it simply she's a prostitute and", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-59", "text": "or to put it simply she's a prostitute and she comes and says I heard that your monks are looking for residences why don't you send some monks to me and everybody had gone one or two were left Ananda tirtha was left and she looked at why doesn't he come he's a tall handsome monk she said why doesn't he come and stay with me Gautama said by all means Ananda can stay with you so he told Ananda please go stay with the lady so she went to the prostitute's house or the whole town went a GOG oh my God he sent a monk to a prostitute's house what's happened so when he went there the lady brought nice silk clothing and said suppose you were wearing very rough clothing let me wash it you wear this so here were silk robes and he sat there she played music she danced for him he paid absolute attention and watched her people said see she's singing music then what will happen next what will", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-60", "text": "singing music then what will happen next what will happen then imagine everything then after the monsoon was over after a few weeks the Ananda came back to Gautama along with a nun she turned into a nun so when people were questioning him he said this he said see I am walking this path because I see this as the most powerful way to live but you're telling me her ways are more powerful than mine if it is so I will also join her I'm like that if I find something more powerful than the way I'm existing right now I will join that what is your existence right now you lead very busy lives you're constantly traveling and you want to you want to touch people's lives and bring that blissfulness that you experienced into as many lives on people that's all but what is that secret sauce that attracts Millions to Isha Foundation what is that you feel in you see look I'm sure you must be thinking what do I do what is it that I do which", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-61", "text": "do I do what is it that I do which the other people don't do don't you think that I do life they do mental circus I do lie I've got my headline I'll just do life nothing else so you don't think that there's anything which is Mystical and magical that you do I mean of course you have an issue with the whole term magical no no I'm I have no issue with that I'm only saying see one thing see magic means what now if I put my hand into my pocket and pull out a pigeon this is Magic yeah that's what people would think mostly right but if I would not think back to that vibhuti and chains if I pull out a pigeon and give it to you you have a bird and I have a shitty pocket that's that's all it is what do you do with that magic now I can show you a different magic if you come to the Yoga Center I'll show you people who've been there for many years in the last 10", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-62", "text": "who've been there for many years in the last 10 years they have not had a moment of angst moment of anger moment of frustration moment of anything they're simply there not simply sitting somewhere in a cave actively working with all sorts of people and still don't experience that this is the magic that the world needs and that's the magic I'm trying to weave when you're attached to family when you're attached to your children your aging parents your your spouse who might why only those five six people why not to me yes but you're born into those uh relationships right to get you know your husband was not born with you your children were not born Society gave that yes correct so when you're when you you know I'm asking okay why are you attached only to five things why are you not attached to the whole universe what's stopping you but that would mean disconnecting with those right what it's not so right now as I said earlier now I'm looking at you you are the most important life in", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-63", "text": "looking at you you are the most important life in my life right now if I think no no my daughter is more important than you my friend is more important than you why right now you are the most important person because you are here with me because this is life now I'm thinking of my daughter this is my psychological memory right when she's there she's there that's a different matter so you are giving more significance to your memory than your experience lots of people say that one meal a day everybody wants to know from you of course that how you're so fit and uh is it one meal a day which everybody the the mythology around you the myths around you is that one meal a day he eats only nuts he's very careful diet not a lot I eat whatever I feel like eating I'm not careful about diet I'm not careful about anything I'm somebody who lives like I could die today always so I'm not by rule one one meal a day but generally I find for the type", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-64", "text": "meal a day but generally I find for the type of work that I do if I'm it's a busy day at The Yoga Center means I don't feel like eating in the morning so I eat somewhere between four to six in the evening I eat a full when I sit down at the table I don't like to measure and eat I eat what I like to eat proper South Indian meal properly I eat so once you eat rice and sambar mostly five days six days in a week at least five days in a week we eat millets two days we meet rise or chapati or something but and vegetables yes organically grown I'm guessing uh it's from the local Marketplace semi-organic we are not growing anything because we wanted to support the farmers around us okay so we contract them rather than we growing it ourselves uh recently you know um the Delhi chief minister made this comment uh when he said uh that you know the prime ministers people tell me that he sleeps only three hours in a", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-65", "text": "tell me that he sleeps only three hours in a day and that's why he's so grumpy all the time because he sleeps so less he needs to sleep a little more so uh what is so what is uh what is Yoga tell us how much uh is there a rule that you need to sleep this much see we must understand sleep means it's the downtime for the body it's the maintenance time suppose uh you have a car which needs one day of Maintenance in 30 days it's all right but suppose it needs 10 days of Maintenance in 30 days better get onto the bus isn't it so right now doctors have been saying others have been saying You must sleep for eight hours a day otherwise your heart will this will go happen that will happen eight hours a day means you're sleeping away one third of your life 24 hours 8 hours you're sleeping one third another two hours could be going in other kind of Maintenance of eating bathroom this that whatever because all these things are needed bodily", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-66", "text": "that whatever because all these things are needed bodily processes are a must we can't be without it so if 8 to 10 12 hours are going in maintenance when are you going to live freely it's not efficient way of living so don't fix times like that see how to make body more efficient more energetic more effervescent naturally the need for food see right now there was an ambassador because I'm not making a comment about any brand but because that brand doesn't exist I think we can I like how you go into automobile metaphors all the time because fuel we're talking not sure you were driving an ambassador car if you put one liter if it ran for three to four kilometers it was great if you press the throttle in two kilometers one liter got ran away because half of it would be leaking out also so many things today you have more efficient cars bigger cars faster cars which will run 10 12 kilometers for the same liter some of them over 30 kilometers with the same liter the", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-67", "text": "of them over 30 kilometers with the same liter the hybrid one is running 45 kilometers for the same liter what is this upgradation of technology and better maintenance when I say better maintenance less friction in the whole machinery so you you may think this is me but actually this is a biological machine isn't it if you take away all the friction Within both food and sleep the need will come down it consumes less fuel it needs less downtime this is something you must do if you're interested in living because if you're sleeping people say I enjoy sleep nobody can enjoy sleep because you're not there you enjoy the restfulness why are you not restful when you're sitting here You're simply revving at a high RPM for no reason and then you want to lie down and sleep because the body is tired tired yeah so it is not something that you prescribe you work towards making the body very effervescent and Alive what kind of fuel would do that how much fuel would do that then naturally", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-68", "text": "do that how much fuel would do that then naturally sleep arranges itself I never fix how much I'm asleep I've never woken up to an alarm my my girl just laughs at me you don't know how to set an alarm on the phone I said I don't need it do you have a phone yes I have a phone what do you do mostly with the phone making calls it's my office it's your face I don't go to any office I handle everything on the phone today give such a social media sensation on YouTube on Facebook on Instagram do you check your what do people see what do people ask what do people comment about you I may not be able to see comments much uh here and there maybe just to have a feel of it like but everybody why do they like my sambar [Laughter] that's what I said there is a certain Fascination about food probably because good home food is disappearing so fast yeah that people think it's something exotic that somebody can make sambar just in a", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-69", "text": "exotic that somebody can make sambar just in a camper I'm making somebody in a camper that I am driving during the virus time yeah did you do that I wanted to ask you when you traveled for Save the soil when you you went on your motorbike across the world uh what was it about you know food that you did American food uh you know you went to Egypt and you went to all those places Drive riding in the uh desert and all that what did you do for food there was a team organizing food ahead of time for the whole because there was nearly a team of uh 27 to 30 people uh photographers videographers and setting up see because we were not just riding in these hundred days I said 691 events yeah that's phenomenal yeah those events organizing those events there were people traveling with me or ahead of me most of the time so they would have food ready at a certain place it didn't always come on time but I'm okay with food I'm not uh I'm", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-70", "text": "but I'm okay with food I'm not uh I'm not like I must eat at a given time I'm okay wouldn't sleep never came to me what about controversies do they bother you uh see the thing is I made myself like this that somebody else will never determine how I am somebody else or something else never determines how I am Within Myself so if it if the controversy supports the work I don't mind the controversy if it's impeding the work of course we would like to relieve that like for Isha Foundation comes under criticism many times that you've taken always what do you mean many times okay always and then those who uh those who do not succeed in bringing you down legally they say that the reason is because sadhguruji is connected so well with powers that be that's why it powers that be you can inquiry or a journalist have I ever gone to any chief minister or prime minister ever asking something for myself ever have I taken one rupee from any government", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-71", "text": "ever have I taken one rupee from any government have I taken an inch of land from any government no if I go to meet them I go there only to contribute to what they are doing if I have an idea if I think a certain law should happen to facilitate something only that I've never gone to any politician any powers that be including God asking for something I have never prayed in my life ever you've never prayed no really but doesn't don't you feel hurt or dejected at times why no that's why I said nobody else decides what happens Within Me the satguru need a guru ever I had when I needed very long time ago and uh that's a different dimension altogether people are right now there are troll armies which doesn't like the word Dimension so whenever I say Dimension I say Dimension Dimension dimension for their benefit so I'm saying whatever negativities people do the problem with them is they want to make a living so they know that if they use somebody's name", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-72", "text": "so they know that if they use somebody's name they can make a living they are doing that I'm okay if they make a living but if they impede the work then of course we act to see how to relieve those things but till now whatever they have said have they produced one iota of proof one one little thing no this is not exaggeration of what we are doing this is just total imagination of what it is so any number of times openly I have challenged you're talking about thousands of Acres of forest I said one inch Forest land tribal land private land government Land one inch anywhere if there's an encroachment I'll leave the country I'll withdraw from all the social media thing you will never hear of me again I'm done if one inch if you show me I invite them please come stay at our expense go ahead and find out they won't come why because they make a living like this it's very unfortunate way to live but unfortunately they're making a living like that right a", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-73", "text": "unfortunately they're making a living like that right a person like me or any of my colleagues they'll come to you and ask you questions like how should I be happy how should I get rid of tensions how can I sleep what should I eat these are the kind of questions that most of us would come up with when rich people come to you what do they say when can I make my first billion second billion what do powerful people say when can I become Prime Minister do they come and ask you these kind of questions uh not exactly see you're thinking see a lot of people think you are very rich and Powerful somebody who has nothing looking at you they're thinking that you are very rich and Powerful so who is Rich and Powerful to you may not be rich and Powerful to somebody else so for me nobody is Rich and Powerful if they have a problem how are they powerful ah I don't have any problem so you can say I'm powerful not power over somebody I have complete", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-74", "text": "I'm powerful not power over somebody I have complete power over my life and that's all that matters I have no power over anybody else but this is all that people want that they want to be power over their own life they don't understand that and they think by conquering something they're procuring something acquiring something it'll happen let me tell you this just before I started safe soil uh moment I was in the United States that's when this Rogan thing and all happened I was campaigning for the uh also yes yes and a few others some of them did negative hit jobs on me it's okay uh so at that time I was meeting people and one day I see one young man behaving like his tail is on fire I said hey what are you up to he said Guru I want to make one billion dollars one billion dollars oh that's all you come tomorrow morning I'll give you a billion dollars really you'll give me a billion dollars I said yes tomorrow you come", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-75", "text": "a billion dollars I said yes tomorrow you come I'll give you a billion dollars he had come with eight of his friends they were all sitting quietly I said see these eight guys were sitting quietly I'll give each one of them 10 billion dollars Guru you're giving them 10 only one for me I said you idiot just now you wanted only one the moment they get 10 you're miserable about the one so unfortunately people have made themselves like this they only enjoy what others don't have this is the fundamental mistake about life you don't enjoy what you have you enjoy what others don't have this is a sickness you think it's Joy it is not joy joy is a natural exuberance of life so whether you are a politician or a convict or a journalist or a man woman whatever the hell you are you think you're all that but essentially you're a life either constipated or blossoming to you for advice do many people think that you can see the future", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-76", "text": "do many people think that you can see the future people try these days they've given up because I know they know by now that if they ask such questions where I will take them they become gtps you know they're predicting what I may say so the important thing the important thing about my life is not about predicting your future about empowering you to create your future this is the most important aspect of this culture why the sanatan Dharma is important is here we have no sense of God there is no the god in this country we are a Godless Nation we know the technology of God making but we don't have the God all the people that you worship or people who walk the geography of this land Shiva walk this land Yogi walk this land Krishna walk this land Rama walked this land they had all the troubles are more trouble than you ever face in your life no no we'll come to that you can call them whatever you want essentially they walked in human form on this land yes or", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-77", "text": "they walked in human form on this land yes or no yes were their lives just magical or full of trouble look at Rama's life it's a it's a serial serial disaster 3. suppose you are a queen of a kingdom at the age of 19 you're coronated and then they take away your kingdom and send you to the forest one disaster like that you wouldn't recover most people yeah tribulations all his life most people wouldn't recover with one disaster lost his kingdom as if that's not good enough lost his wife then he goes out and battles and kills people that he doesn't want to kill and then gets back his wife and again some politics and sends away his pregnant wife to the forest never gets to see his children unknowingly he almost killed his children see if you are me or anybody knowingly or unknowingly we killed our own children in many ways that is the worst thing that you could do correct he almost did it yeah and then he never got to see", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-78", "text": "did it yeah and then he never got to see his wife she died in the forest so this is not a successful life but the important thing why we worship Him is no matter what happened he remained the same no angst no hatred no nothing he even did Penance for killing ravana okay because this is what this is the only thing that we value in this culture is freedom Liberation mukti when you're alive if you're free from everything you are not withdrawn you're active but free that is only one Avatar of Vishnu where this happened in the others uh in the other avatars it was it wasn't that it wasn't uh see what you call as Avatar is Darwin's theory of evolution this was not spoken recently this was spoken they say hello welcome trolls himself is supposed to have spoken this correct yes the first life see what are the authors tell me no no don't go there one at a time what does it mean water life yeah life waterborne life there was a time", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-79", "text": "water life yeah life waterborne life there was a time when hardly 10 percent or five percent of the land was land rest was all water so first life was naturally waterborne what is next kurma okay so what does it mean amphibious life crawled out of the water half on land often this learning to live on land that's what amphibious life means next is among the many creatures smaller creatures they're ignoring and coming to mammals the first mammal or the grossest mammal he's a pig or a wild boar why I am saying it's grossest is even today at least the ladies will say this if a man is very crude like a pig yes so something very basic means Pig so the most basic mammal is a pig very rooted in its body very hard to kill a pig people don't understand this it's not like killing a deer or a goat or something very hard to kill a pig it takes a lot to kill the pigs because they're so rooted in", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-80", "text": "to kill the pigs because they're so rooted in their physicality if somebody is very physical you say he's like a pig so the next thing is half man half animal next thing is what Ramana dwarf to man next thing is what parasharama full-fledged man but volatile volatile next is what Rama peaceful man next is what Krishna a loving man next is supposed to be a Buddha a meditative man the next one is supposed to be a mystical man don't look at them as individual people these are different stages of evolution just look at Darwin's theory of evolution it is parallel to this in many ways he might have gone at it with a different context so sanatan Dharma has an explanation or a a sanatan view of life has has explanations for Life Evolution we're talking about Evolution see there are places in our Vedas where they're talking about single-celled animals okay we're talking about Evolution because we are a dialectical culture we don't do anything in a way", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-81", "text": "dialectical culture we don't do anything in a way that it doesn't touch your life we write our history that way we sign right our science that way because if it's not going to touch and transform your life what is the point of any science or history so this also is said in such a way that we are making it an embodiment of that stage of development and saying it is this person this person it is not about people it is about different levels of evolution that happened so next one is supposed to be mystical right now even your technology is becoming almost mystical isn't it hmm right now unable to understand I'm saying if a machine gets up and suppose you are a robo I don't know it could be or I could be why you if somebody builds a machine just like me and talks like me chat GTP is answering all your questions and you don't know I finished the podcast and went home and you don't know it can easily be done yeah we", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-82", "text": "don't know it can easily be done yeah we are not very close to that see almost 20 years ago Mr Honda the Japanese the Honda company chairperson said by 2050 we will produce 11 member football team and they will win the World Cup and they're not far from that they can win the World Cup because you can make every player a Lionel Messi or the best in the in those different spots of the game so is this not mystical it's manifesting also in a way isn't it it's it's mystical we're getting there see we are always trying to separate this and that life is not in separation life is in unity always this uh you know the current prime ministers has given this thing that India is on the way to becoming a vishwa guru there are many people who are skeptical about these kind of things that this is too much we can't resolve our own problem of giving water to every home you know public toilets we can't these basic things we can't do so", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-83", "text": "we can't these basic things we can't do so what is this vishwa Guru take is he is he also doing this kind of thing that which you said about Mr Honda which is you know manifested that once you have a goal you achieve that do you think that there's a similarity see yeah how India was viewed just 20 years ago and how it is viewed by the world today the people who are skeptical should go out in the world and see how Indian means nobody even paid attention to you today Indians wow you're from India they say 70 70 Fortune 500 companies have Indian CEOs most of the ivy league universities have Indian you know Deans and things like that it's not small because we took a historical beating in terms of invasions we lost so many things the continuity of our culture was lost the continuity of knowledge was lost everything was destroyed today they are slowly certain you know unpredulised historians and scientists are looking at it and saying almost everything that you call as", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-84", "text": "at it and saying almost everything that you call as science that came from Europe the fundamentals came from India the mathematics came from India all right even the most simple thing that everybody study what is this this theorems that you study in high school they all were here well before the Europeans did that they traveled here they took it they dropped our this thing and produced it in their own languages and said we found it but our problem has always been this we never put ourselves out well our our problem is we don't have a packaging industry we have products we don't have packaging but now we are learning to package it well but at the same time just 250 years ago we were 30 of the world's export that means we must be packaging it well also it's been destroyed systematically destroyed all right it's not just didn't get destroyed ad hoc systematically destroyed by somebody who had a different intent Finance happened it's there's no point being bitter about it because bitterness will not kill them", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-85", "text": "bitter about it because bitterness will not kill them it will only kill us sure all right so today it's on an up search it is a land of so many complexities that's our strength that's our problem do we have the brains and the patients to handle the complexity and take it somewhere or will we get tangled up in our own complexity this is a important thing for this you need a leadership which is visionary which has the necessary courage which has a necessary ruthlessness to push in One Direction no matter who says what this is needed in this country otherwise this country will not get out of its pits we are a plethora of problems but we are a tremendous possibility today everybody is looking at the possibility of India those who are here commenting about local they're just involved in this local news Mass that's going on they don't understand how the world is looking at us right now the world is looking at as one of the greatest possibilities on the planet and we will be I", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-86", "text": "possibilities on the planet and we will be I have no doubt about that it is just that if we do this in a planned way in a determined way in a strategic lead because one important thing Indians have been lacking is that we've always been accused of not having strategic thinking for the first time we are showing some sense of strategic thinking we are a nation we are a culture we are a civilization who strategized thousand years later what we will be doing at one time but Albert Einstein when he came to India whatever and you know I've always been telling people he met the wrong Indians he met some people whoever he met I don't know who he met he said Indians can't think 15 million minutes Beyond where they are I said I keep telling people he met the wrong Indians he didn't meet us all right so we have to change that we need to bring strategic thinking we need to go where we want to go not wherever winds push us we need to go where", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-87", "text": "wherever winds push us we need to go where we want to go I think that determination the younger generation is beginning to show the aspirations are such they want to go where they want to go this is not going to happen just like a dream that is striving there is a whole lot of striving to make this happen only question is will you do it joyfully or miserably that's your choice wonderful and anybody who says that if you uni somebody needs to sleep more uh that's a political ambition I think finally satguruji we talked about where we are going how we are heading 2023 where is satguruji going uh are you going to be in India you travel so much so where do you see home you're such a global person do you see home as in India and are you traveling this year my home is within myself so it goes with me wherever I go oh sometimes I like the food sometimes I don't like but it's like home some sometimes food turns out well", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-88", "text": "it's like home some sometimes food turns out well sometimes it doesn't are you do have a like like you had saved the soil is there something that you're planning uh the next project yes we are in the process of crafting what is called as conscious Planet movement it's a global movement even safe soil movement did not happen in a Risha Foundation it happened under conscious Planet which is a separate Foundation outside of the Isha Foundation what conscious Planet means you see right now there are many aspects if you I mean I don't want to go into detail considering the time there is only one problem on the planet the human being if you and me are not here what's the problem on this planet there's no problem on this planet everything is fine isn't it right now everything is a problem every natural color a natural process natural happening that happens we call it a Calamity if an earthquake happens we die if a flood comes we die if anything happens if a spectacular volcano blows we", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-89", "text": "anything happens if a spectacular volcano blows we will die everything is a Calamity in our understanding these are all natural happenings which have always been happening for millions of years so this is become like this because of the way we have constructed our own lives in a compulsive manner our own intelligence has become the most serious problem right now people are talking about mental health pandemic I know this will get me heavy Trolls but I must say this to them if you do not understand your physical and mental health is your responsibility the chances of you being physically mentally healthy becomes more and REM more and more remote as time passes because of variety of reasons soil is very directly connected to your mental health and physical health of course mental health I am saying because that's the most fragile part of who you are and that will go off first physically you're feeling this and that somehow you carry on you don't think you're ill something is simple for most people all their", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-90", "text": "you're ill something is simple for most people all their faculties are not fully functional all right but they carry on thinking this is how it is but the moment the mental fact faculties don't work you create you get clearly crippled so that is beginning to happen the recent CDC stats say in America one in every three teenage girls are depressed when we are growing up a teenage girl means she will giggle for nothing there's no way to get her depressed Joy was there simply exuberant because that's the nature of life when it's blossoming in a certain way even a little donkey you see when it's at a certain age it simply jumps around for Joy of life not for anything that happened to it simply for the joy of life look at a puppy how it jumps around the same with human beings also so adolescence is a time when your physicality and everything is blossoming people are just giggly and bubbly but today they're depressed one in three this is", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-91", "text": "but today they're depressed one in three this is dangerous this is a dangerous proportion one in three is depressed means one-third of the population you you don't have enough psychiatrists to deal with that kind of stuff there is no way you can do it you don't have that much Furniture first of all true true so what is it see if you can conduct your thought process consciously would you ever go mentally off no if you can conduct your emotions consciously would you go ever go off no so what is missing is consciousness but what we're looking at is is like this suppose this room is dark and I say Smitha get this damn Darkness out and you start pushing it kicking it whatever will it go turn on the light and it's gone yeah so for compulsive Behavior within ourselves the only and only solution is consciousness so this conscious plant movement we're trying to build technology platforms to Proctor people that our aim is two to three billion people should have a minimum of 12 to 15 minutes", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-92", "text": "people should have a minimum of 12 to 15 minutes of practice that they will do and we will monitor them for at least one year minimum that they are actually doing it we want to find sponsors to give them rewards if somebody is working on their inner well-being let's say you did some sadhana for six months and you feel wonderful if you feel wonderful all the people who work with you they'll feel wonderful your family feels wonderful the world will become wonderful this is the only way yes without individual transformation there is no Global or Universal transformation there is simply no such thing but this is the important thing that human beings should become little more conscious so as a part of this we are launching this in 2024 right now Preparatory work is going on because we were depending on cryptocurrency thinking we'll give crypto rewards for people you do that's not working no not now it's working it's gone gone at one time it was going so we thought if you do 90 days of practice", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-93", "text": "so we thought if you do 90 days of practice we'll do one coin which will be valuable in the marketplace so you are not paying for your uh you know getting the sadhana we are paying you for you to do the sadhana because you doing sadhana you're improving the world in many ways your workplace your home everything improves this is the only way the world improves so now we are looking at sponsors and other things to find a ways to sponsor people that you are doing your sadhana you are well we will monitor you there are ways medically we can monitor you how your blood pressure is how you're feeling everything if you're like that we reward you for that for your health and well-being we are going to reward you with doctors inside all digitally simple see today you have uh like wristbands which will tell you what is your pulse rate correct what is your blood pressure what is your sugar they're able to kind of maybe not exactly but they're able to do this so", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "f44c0477dae2-94", "text": "not exactly but they're able to do this so with that kind of instrumentation with phones phone is the main instrument through that we want to monitor still this work is going on okay it is still technology needs to be built up but basic technology is there we are not inventing anything we have to innovate a little bit to make that happen right so creating a conscious planet is the most important thing at least two to three billion people if they are willing to spend 12 to 15 minutes within themselves and improve themselves it's a better world and it's the only world we have right so we have to work that's all we have right thank you so much for speaking with us very much and it's been an Illuminating conversation and will get us all thinking a lot about it thank you so much thank you for listening into this very special broadcast do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste click here to watch the previous episodes foreign [Music]", "source": "MtsakWaHenw"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-0", "text": "it's better to be known by your failures in my profession than to be known by your successes every intelligence agency's nightmare is that there is a mole how many of us know that in Cargill the BSF was Banning the Heights and not the Army Mr Muradi Desai he told the Allah we know about kahuta we get handed over the tape Musharraf talking to generals Aziz Khan the Pakistan Army finds Kashmir as a useful tool to retain Supremacy in Pakistan 2006 Bombay bomb lost we did nothing 2008 that horror of Mumbai we did nothing you know we've never ever retaliated in the manner that we should have the message must reach those who take decisions there like balakot would have hurt them because it's the message that is important URI was another message that was important we have the ability to do it and we will do it and we will do it again when this Cargill Review Committee was going on and coming towards the end the senior officer comes", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-1", "text": "and coming towards the end the senior officer comes to me and says what you're saying is right but you'll have to take the rap they're hilarious movies and it's only see them as a as a comedy it's okay if it is a an operation that you go and suborn that girl it's different but if he does it on his own I'll be shocked if he does that Namaste welcome to another edition of a i podcast with Smitha prakash what is a spy like is an raw officer somewhat like what Salman Khan was in a car tiger or something like Akshay Kumar in baby or is an raw agent somewhat like Alia Bhatt in razi is the Bollywood depiction of R and A W very accurate somewhat accurate or totally different to answer these questions we have in our Studios former Chief of the research and Analysis Wing Mr Vikram sooth who retired as a career intelligence officer in 2003 after 31 years in the rnaw Mr suit is an advisor at The", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-2", "text": "in the rnaw Mr suit is an advisor at The Observer Research Foundation and has authored two books the unending game a former rnaw Chief's insights into Espionage and the ultimate goal Mr Sue thank you so much for being part of the podcast my team has been wanting to have you on this show for a long time and I'm glad that you found time to come to the studio here in Delhi and talk to us so I will begin with your books and then get to the media stuff after that so uh the unending game uh in this one it was very interesting especially the Kashmir Parts uh for some of the stuff which you don't speak about but you hint and and this one about narratives um the ultimate goal so for viewers listeners uh do buy this book The unending game and the other one is the ultimate goal both are available on the net you can just buy this or in bookshops so tell me Mr suit um how difficult was it to actually you know post retirement to come out", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-3", "text": "it to actually you know post retirement to come out and write about your life you haven't written so much it's not it's not a personal kind of a story it's more like you know a professional point of view so was it difficult to get down to doing this it was because I was I'm in service you're used to writing short notes right on the higher up you go you have a one page or a page and a half of the PM from there to graduate to writing articles first which I did in the Hindustan times and other papers then I moved on to bigger essays and journals then one day somebody suggested to me I think that why don't you do a book on the basis of all your articles I said no that's not really interesting because those are time-bound things you know their relevance is over three months or four months after I've written so there has to be something more then she said why don't you write a book on intelligence I said I can't write a book on Raw I", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-4", "text": "I said I can't write a book on Raw I won't be able to do it it's not my belief that I should write but I could I actually gave the idea of the narrative story first I said let's do that then um she said no I don't think we should do a book which is which is based on your Forte on your on your expertise on your knowledge so then I thought of the unending game where I would talk of intelligence as a concept as a profession and and a good profession but not talk about raw really except when it is relevant to to us today chapter or to the topic I've attended a book events uh I've even co-hosted one of the events for the unending game and I attended one of your book events on the ultimate goal I've also heard you speaking in Washington DC at the Heritage Foundation and I've always found that you rarely speak about your years in the Raw you speak about intelligence as a concept like you mentioned in your book too so um is", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-5", "text": "like you mentioned in your book too so um is that you're training not to talk about your years in the Raw it is it is and I think it's also my personal inclination inclination not to you know you you told not to reveal secrets you told not to brag because it's better to be known by your failures in my profession than to be known by your successes because if we have succeeded in let's say breaking a terrorist ring okay how many TomTom about it now the other side knows that they've broken this uh ring how do they know so they do a back check where do they go wrong and then the chances are they will discover that that was their weakness we don't want them to know that this is how we got it so if you make a mistake people talk about it it's all right we take it on the jaw and move on so I've seen that you know when there is an accusation made about raw when there is something talk about intelligence failure or anything like that", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-6", "text": "is something talk about intelligence failure or anything like that there's no spokesperson of the raw nobody comes out and says hey we didn't do wrong yes we went wrong here this is misinformation about us nothing like that it just remains this shadowy thing nobody knows about why it's been us custom or our system that don't engage because if you engage then you're going to be having to answer more questions the more you engage naturally there will be cross questioning cross-examining sort of saying that but you know but this happened then and you how do you relate it to this so don't get into a dialogue and let the mystery remain let it remain with a question mark then try and solve it but you know when things like Cargill Review Committee happen when you are expected to give evidence and defend then it's a little different then then you have to say it more or less openly that this is what happened this is not what happened and how many of us know that in kargil", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-7", "text": "and how many of us know that in kargil the BSF was Banning the heights still 1982 and not the army loc Heights the upper Heights of north of cargillian north of draz in 1992 that system was taken over by the army but they used to pull down their troops in October and send them back in Feb March the BSF stayed there even when the temperature was 65 minus Celsius those days when the equipment wasn't what it is now so it was very strenuous now you have a Pakistan which is fretting after 1971. he is looking for something and Musharraf must have noticed this or others must have noticed it in fact they had prepared a plan and been turned it down he said what if the Indians react what will you do to which musharra didn't have an adequate answer and they shelved it but the resurrected it in 99. this is what general Musharraf or the Pakistani always have done which is go in but no plan further no right yeah so", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-8", "text": "go in but no plan further no right yeah so it every war that they have fought was that um I mean even if you read musharraf's book it's like that it's this bravado of jumping in and somebody will take care of the mess later it is the sort of self-acclaimed superiority okay you know we have Punjabi Fighters yeah what is this thing about Indians being Banias and so look down upon them but why why should you I think it comes out from the pre-partition days where the money lenders and the shopkeepers were all Hindus mostly and the the Muslim world so they they would in other trades and Agriculture and so on so forth and they he was little money lender the margin and so on so forth so that kind of thing is that you know he's not as good as I am but he's just lucky he's got more money that they're vegetarians and they are Banias this is a this is and therefore they don't have strength strength we have the warrior", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-9", "text": "they don't have strength strength we have the warrior strength we are the warrior class plus that we are of Arabic descent Arabic and plus the British definition of the Muslim Soldier as the warrior class the military mind so let's come back to Cargill which you were talking about that the BSF didn't deduct and the Army was doing that and that is the loophole that they saw now everybody knows about or some people at least know about how uh when uh kargil happened uh we were caught off guard when uh and it was uh it was the so tell us now why should I say anything you tell us what happened was there intelligence failure I tell you in October 1998 the raw Center report that there is troop movement in that place of a kind that we think they are planning something big we even use the word War a quick War because they had moved troops form peace locations from mangala from gujarawala and I think Lahore up to poke so we assessed that something", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-10", "text": "Lahore up to poke so we assessed that something is going to happen now you don't know at that stage what is going to happen this is a sort of half yearly assessment that this is what has been happening the past few months and now we are ready we summarize from this that they are planning something this report was not accepted what do you mean not accept this or not just it can't be so who does that is it the I mean political leadership raw is this agency that has supplied the information we make a recommendation that's where it ends that is for the political Masters or the consumers to decide what to do with that information they say it can't be what else can I say six months later we gave another review in in I think April 99 saying that their intentions are aggressive okay during the same period this lasts like eight nine months the northern command had reported a nine-fold increase in the vehicular movement in that area Pakistan movement hmm that again is is a indicator", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-11", "text": "area Pakistan movement hmm that again is is a indicator it's a battle indicator something was being moved then um to do one kernel so there's military intelligence and raw input before Cargill actually happened yeah before the Pakistani troops there was also IB information there was also IB okay so multiple Agency information went in into the uh so if all this information was going in why did the Lahore bus yatra happen I don't know that is the political decision before doing a yatra of that sort where the Prime Minister takes this bold decision to go he's already got information about from three sources I don't know whether he got it or not what is the chain of command then how does the information go from there to where the the there was a note from the intelligence bureau chief the div I think June 98. of hectic activities in be okay and saying that something is happening now that report was addressed to everybody when the dib or the secretary are rights it goes to the head of the government it", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-12", "text": "rights it goes to the head of the government it goes to the Prime Minister it goes there was an NSA by then well sort of the PM principal secretary was principal secretary was doubling up as we had the jic then okay joint intelligence committee there the Home Secretary would know yeah cabinet secretary the cabinet secretary would know the home minister would know I should imagine so yes right now all all of them knew that there was some kind tell me at that time also I remember or previously people used to keep saying yeto intelligence report it happened even when the Bombay uh blasted every time they say this that you know they tend to say essay intelligence so there's that attitude of a lackadaisical attitude may be misplaced but it was there that too much of this kind of information coming that happens I mean they can also say the boy who cried wolf and there may be instances of people sending out heartbreak reports maybe but you were very specific you think all these three at", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-13", "text": "you were very specific you think all these three at the IB Mi and Rew when you do an assessment a six monthly assessment which is personal of at least a brigadier's rank or a director's rank is sending to the government to the Joint intelligence committee he's not going to do it uh you know just for the fun of it okay he would be a considered assessment now it is an assessment for you to accept or reject it is it is never done or never should be done that an intelligence agency acts on its own information so Cargill in a way we had the enemy within our land right uh and then they were thrown out for various reasons what happened post Cargill whether it was the Americans who put pressure on nawashari whether our own soldiers had a success On The Ground by throwing them back but they pushed back let's go before that let's go to operation make doth which was siachen yeah okay right I had uh on the podcast General Kulkarni here and he talked about how uh", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-14", "text": "Kulkarni here and he talked about how uh Indian troops went and occupied the siachen glacier um at that time uh in the interview he mentions General hoon and he says about how General Hoon uh played that role he went and got the equipment and things and then he also mentioned that you were a station Chief in Srinagar at that time and you gave the Intel also and the Intel came in from Mi and raw that Pakistan was buying winter gear winter gear so tell me about that from Austria from Austria yeah you gave that information at that time and did you suspect that it was to launch an operation you know we had a dental hoon and I had a discussion on this in his uh headquarters and Srinagar Srinagar I remember the Exquisite gave me never mind but you know we had a discussion you know and it's obvious that uh when you buy such equipment there has to be purpose it's not for tourism because priyo prior to that the pakistanis were trying to send tourist", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-15", "text": "to that the pakistanis were trying to send tourist groups from Pok across cardu and Beyond uh under that Gap trying to find out more intelligence and they also encouraging the belief that all this belongs to them that this area north of the loc is all theirs actually and they want to occupy it so that had to be stopped General Kulkarni called it cartographic aggression that that's what they were doing and the Intel that was provided to the Army at that stage was that this is what they were doing they would slowly like what the Chinese slowly you take it and then you pass the word around so they were doing that they were trying to establish ownership by saying that we are organizing the tours which is all being done by us the Japanese climbers have come and so on so forth so that had to be stopped who had this information did you tell your Chief at that stage of course who was the chief at that stage it was Gary uh Gary saxena okay so tell us about you know I'm", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-16", "text": "saxena okay so tell us about you know I'm going to come to that part too that you know uh what was it who were the Chiefs who actually like you know you had this rapper with which you unhesitatingly could give your a report and you knew for certain that that report would be believed and it wouldn't just end up in another file who were those Chiefs that you work with that you were most impressed with well actually the iconic figure was Mr Cow legendary Legend there's none who can you know come up to him and he was a first-rate human being in every way I mean he was genuinely what he was we all looked up to him as a as a role model so you were one of those cowboys in a manner of speaking I wasn't recruited directly by him but I was recruited in his in the first flush when they were recruiting from outside the police and outside the direct recruitment we had a direct recruitment in 71 first first batch was 71.", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-17", "text": "direct recruitment in 71 first first batch was 71. that was because of the war no it was just generally a service of your own so we didn't have an external intelligence Wing before 71. no no we had raw 468 68. but you didn't join then no I I joined in 672. so tell me the gaps 68 to 72 where were you what were you doing 68 66 I joined this government as a postal service provisioner after the upsc exam of 65 and Missouri 66 and then I was posted to Delhi they asked me where do you want to go I should have said something else instead of saying Delhi so they said Maharashtra or somewhere seen the country where I always said no in Delhi so it's okay there's a vacancy so I was my office was in defense Colony I Postal Service office yes the senior student post Offices South Division defense Colony c563 I still remember okay so I was there and um then we started hearing this Whispers of a new organization coming up Ultra secret", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-18", "text": "this Whispers of a new organization coming up Ultra secret and so on what is this and he said no no it's it's going to be you know really high-flying this that and the other okay so we all um got inquisitive then we heard that you know it's not just police they are taking from outside and you know Mrs G and R and coward decided that they will not make it into a police organization this is Mrs Indira Gandhi just in case our viewers are getting confused okay Indira gandhis and cow decided that the new organization must have multi must multi-social talent and Mr Cow at that stage was what was his he was the head of raw 6080 became head of Rome okay and so 71 we we started this 71 the war happened and after that it picked up steam again so who recruited you or can you speak that or you can't I don't know who recruited me in that sense my dossier was obviously called for by the by the organization and so how", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-19", "text": "called for by the by the organization and so how does like do people apply for working in the art not now but at that time did you apply for it or did they Scout around and found people some some scouted around and had their name pulled in what was it that they would have found about you that they would um that they would want I just saw they I think they just saw the performance record okay and wanted a new Facebook because I would think that you know you didn't have that which everybody when you became Chief because you were the first non-police officer to become Chief so did that work against you at that stage that you know you came from the Postal Service why would a postal service or was Postal Service just a euphemism for what you were actually doing no it was my first genuine job Postal Service and I had no inclination of this would happen and when I joined I didn't know that I would end up the way I did and I just found the work very exciting", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-20", "text": "I did and I just found the work very exciting and tell me about your first meeting with Mr Cow you know uh I worked a lot with Mr B Rahman okay he uh I succeeded him Thrice in my career at headquarters when the first desk assignment then as a junior staff officer to the Chief and then as the offset of the organization so I I worked every time it was him and he used to give me little tips he said you're going to meet Mr Cow said yeah what is it now remember one thing don't put your hand on the glass oh on the table on the table he said I said why because you leave fingerprints he doesn't like those oh my God that finicky that but oh but he was such a sweet man he was so wonderful to deal with it sweet man yeah yeah he was a Sharif shock right I mean for the enemy of enemy of course but for his own people he was he was very very protective and okay and I remember um I've seen him once from", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-21", "text": "okay and I remember um I've seen him once from a distance I was terrified even when I saw him because you know there was so much one had heard about him but he's an amazing man uh I remember in 2001 when we had the um Parliament attack that was December 13. now December 19 is the raising day of the special fronti force explain what is Raising day tomorrow the birthday of the organization okay so they have an evening dinner and that day there was a rumor if you remember that some terrorists had occupied doordarshan IA radio okay really which year 2001 yeah 2001. okay so um I got delayed sorting this out and the founders only a rumor and nothing happened so I went off to the function and as I walked in Mr Carr was standing there was a cow standing there and he said oh I'm so glad you've come now I can go I said sir I'm sorry I'm late but you know this is what happened yes that's fine but I thought", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-22", "text": "is what happened yes that's fine but I thought I'll wait for you before I leave I said but so it's your old organization you could leave any time he says no young man you are the head I can't leave till you come oh okay this is when you were Chief when I was Chief okay so you are the head I can't live without your permission that sounds like very foggy thing to do well it's it's you know you wanted to encourage some kinds of disciplines in the system also you can't have uh all two palsy and but he was I believe like you very dead pan expression you couldn't really tell when he was angry when he was happy well at least there's not there's not many uh instances of Mr Cow having lost his temper and he may have fixed the other chap differently but they didn't lose his temper and he had a he had a vision he knew what he wanted for the organization and um very private person right he didn't write there were no", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-23", "text": "very private person right he didn't write there were no interviews of his there are hardly any photographs yeah there's just I've seen photographs in some people's homes like the the award that you people get there's one on your study table that's one of mine with him yeah that's at the same function oh okay so I've seen that and I've seen in somebody's book there's a picture I think nitin go Clay's book there is a picture uh but uh but very very private private person but he had a good wrapper with the prime minister right excellent rapper she trusted him completely and that's the way to do it okay if you you know raw is a in an organization which is only concerned with activities abroad essentially now terrorism has made some difference but essentially it was all abroad we didn't have terrorism we didn't have the kinds of threats that you have today because military thread like maybe economic threat but primarily military threat was what we were concerned with in the early days then you", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-24", "text": "were concerned with in the early days then you have to interact with so many countries you cannot reveal too much to either side you cannot not reveal with unless you want to have some information back from them so it it he had to be discreet and quiet and and that would be the role model but now it's different now it's everybody is in a and also I think there are so many uh so many elements to it right there wouldn't have been so much of technical intelligence technical aspect compared to and none of it I mean when did internet come to India so it's only then that uh the whole thing has changed off and and mobile Communications I mean on your phone you have all the information of the world you can keep hmm and communicate how the organization keep training uh young officers to move with the times or is it hard for a government organization I think I think the problem is going to get worse and worse in the sense that we don't know where technology is going but we know that", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-25", "text": "don't know where technology is going but we know that today Facebook or whoever can download billions of material in a day you can have two billion messages down Twitter how do you keep watch if you want to keep watch maybe we don't need that kind of a watch because we don't have that kind of a global interest but the Americans or the Russians the Chinese who want to know what is happening everywhere all the time must be snowed under and now we're already talking about artificial intelligence which I read a book records Will's book the singularities near he said it would their time will come when the artificial intelligence will be Superior or be ahead of human intelligence now what if that goes Rogue and nothing nobody to control it okay so I'm going to rewind a bit um you know we talked about make doth we talked about operation make doth we talked about Cargill um tell us about 1972 onwards the hunt for Pakistan's nukes you speak about it in your book tell us about that", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-26", "text": "speak about it in your book tell us about that you know in March 72 Bhutto held kind of conference in Multan this is he held that and there he said I want the bomb who can deliver it to me I mean with that flamboyant flamboyance was so I believe somebody should have us I can do it in five he said not good enough somebody said three so that's the story it says okay you're the guy come now he does this then he comes to India in July 72 Shimla I'm gonna give him everything what we won in the war what we won on the battlefield we gave it at the conference table without a quid pro quo and since then I'm digressing with we have had this is when Pakistan's terrorism it gave birth to that you can't beat them on the battlefield we'll beat them differently buy a Thousand Cuts buy a Thousand Cuts that's when it started and but coming back to the nuclear set we can talk about that later about terrorism 72", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-27", "text": "set we can talk about that later about terrorism 72 there was a frantic hunt naturally for what the pakistanis are up to where it is coming from where is the knowledge it is a blank everybody it was a blank for them for everybody and after then we did the nuclear test okay 74 then the pakistanis hastened their attempts then little dribbler started coming out okay you know this Factory in that factory Karachi nuclear complex is being built and kahuta no Karachi nuclear power plant thing was being built and kahuta was listed as one of the spots and then Mr Muradi Desai the gandhiyan that he was prime minister of India prime minister of India 77 e or 78 he told we know about gauta okay and the Outlook got alarmed that these guys know so they they became it became more hectic there their their plans to collect and they closed in their gaps and then in 79 there is this report that it's not plutonium it's uranium uranium because they're hunting for", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-28", "text": "it's uranium uranium because they're hunting for inverters and those are inverters are used only if you want to use it for a uranium enrichment and they are you hunting for it all over Europe and some have been supplied already from I think from UK via Germany listed something else listed as cotton weaving machines and reaching a cotton spinning mean machines reaching Karachi and uh from then on it was a hunt everywhere we found things happening in Amsterdam we found stuff coming from by then Mr he had stolen the secrets from the Dutch nucleus plant where he was working the whole thing it says they got a ready-made material to build their systems and then the Chinese stepped in with their assistance after Pakistan's relationship with the Americans had worsened particularly after 72. the Chinese stepped in with their offers and nuclear material was shipped by the Chinese it was I think intercepted by us once in Bombay and not sent further Coast Guard Coast Guard probably you said that uh you know", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-29", "text": "Guard Coast Guard probably you said that uh you know we've seen this also there are reports there are movies made on this about how muraji picked up the phone and called up Zia and told him about kahuta let me get to the point where intelligence organizations give this kind of information and they are let down by the political Master at that time I'm saying using the master in a very loose way but the political head compromises on the National Security scene what happens then isn't it when you give intelligence uh of this nature it's highly classified it is right I would think that there'll be just three people or four people who would know it would probably go by Word of Mouth also at many times not even a returned report but you're you're saying specific information was given and the movie has it and there are articles about how you got to know about that and the the agent who was sent across and what happens to the morale of the organization when this happens there moral was in the", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-30", "text": "organization when this happens there moral was in the boots anyway but that aside anyone who does this it's a disservice it is a disservice I think in America if you did this there would be a code of inquiry in Britain also but here nothing happened he said it was he if you were to think back as to why he did that was it to um was it to just tell the guy that listen I know everything about you guys so don't do anymore if I was to just say you know take play The Devil's Advocate out here and just say do you think he had good intentions or misplaced good intentions you would think I I think I think it was misplaced good intention that you know I'll tell him that we know it so don't do it because there's no point we shouldn't be fighting a nuclear war but you very few of us have really understood what's what's in the Pakistani mind so um they were not going to stop they were not going", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-31", "text": "they were not going to stop they were not going to after 74 they were definitely not never going to stop they would have the bomb under a matter of time that they did so when you get compromised by giving that information do you stop then saying that do you stop hunting for Pakistan's nuclear program after that no no no you continued you continue because we don't know whether it's going to let down it's going to step down or step up after the disclosure so despite this Dhaka that comes in that the Prime Minister has gone actually to the enemy and given information to the enemy the raw continues to research and continues to get Intel on Pakistan's nuclear capability yeah is that it you still have to go on doing it because there's no stopping it another thing happened Mr Cow had been asked to leave after maraji took over and that was a very sad thing and then he went after raw with a shotgun as it were the Prime Minister prime minister Desai hacked cut stopped operations etc", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-32", "text": "prime minister Desai hacked cut stopped operations etc etc despite that Mr Cow got information that India was under pressure to sign the npt and maharaji being maharaji might do it the non-proliferation treaty non-proliferation treaty so um he spoke to Mr santuk who was the chief the Rawson was what succeeded Mr Cow not immediately but it was the third one and his recommendation was that we have to get in touch with Mr homie satna in Bombay they work Baba Atomic Research Center the he should bring pressure on morarji not to sign why would uh Mr miraji decided listen to satna and not do this not to the raw Chief because raw was in the pits those days ah okay so you have to use another Channel which Mr uh Desai had some regard for Mr Satan so off went to an officer from Delhi was that you no no it wasn't me it was sent to meet Mr setner explained to him I mean we and he then flew off to Delhi", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-33", "text": "mean we and he then flew off to Delhi met Mr Desai convinced him don't do it so the pressure was being put by The Americans surely okay to sign the npt with did they already have Pakistan's okay to sign the npt you talked about Mr Muradi Desai going after raw with a chainsaw what happened to you did you lose your job then no no you know there was a time but we used to all sit around the young officers you know people had the divisions were being closed not because the person was not required or not good but closing a division closing a station [Music] so you were at a station no I was at headquarters at headquarters yeah I was at headquarters I came back from my art station and uh hanging around and in all this thing I had no desk assigned to me because you're all so I actually went to one of my senior officers I said give me a job to do I'm just hanging around coming to office every day my wife is wondering", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-34", "text": "coming to office every day my wife is wondering what's going on you someday you come early someday you don't go what did they do send you to the library or something I believe that's what happened right most people were sent to the library yeah they had no place to sit because those days also we didn't have a building we were all in different buildings clustered in this division is here and this division is mostly in South Delhi okay because the Rew did not have one building where everybody worked and of course nobody could tell right that they work for an Intel organization was that with YouTube like you had this non-descript office that you went to yes first my first desk assignment was a non-descript office in suffocating Development Area okay and nobody that connects uh past the tennis lawn tennis thing dlta Delhi lawn tennis Association yeah there wasn't dlta then there was just and there was the Deer Park yeah and it was a very badly lit area so that's where your building", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-35", "text": "very badly lit area so that's where your building was and you used to work out of that nobody knew so I'm going to come into this you know like how does the family I know there's a lot that I have to ask you about you know intelligence operations failures all the successes but the real meat I want to know is what does it take to be a spy what how do you tell your family that I'm a spy do you tell your children I'm daddy is a spy how does that work no it doesn't work actually my kids didn't know for quite a while that what was the nature of my my job and they assumed I am from the I am from the external Affairs on ifs and they never asked any questions but when you get older and then you find that yeah the company that you keep the friends that you have and not from that hmm they're different so they begin to wonder they want to know that what do you do like for instance once it happened those days", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-36", "text": "do like for instance once it happened those days you don't have internet you didn't have mobile phones or email you can give different IDs and different means of communication it's only the telephone so I was doing Ops and they assigned me a new telephone separately only for this work with a different name Ops as in operations Ops is in operation so for your operational requirements I had to have a separate phone not linked to the office phone so it was installed and I had given a name to the agent that my cover name was this if you call me can you tell us Kumar is a typical name nobody knows that's not very imaginative not Innovative at all it's better that with this you can't trace it then and it's easier to remember easy to remember and you can't say everybody's everybody is a Kumar here so the phone rings my daughter picks up and she says hello oh go ahead and told him my mistake huh sorry it went out I said let me I'll land this phone", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-37", "text": "went out I said let me I'll land this phone he rang again thinking that he genuinely made a mistake so contract was established hmm so this this happened and then there were times when I would to order hours of work long hours of work sometimes off on a Sunday sometimes off on a Saturday then out of station then one day my wife actually asked me you go like this supposing I need any help what do I do you don't tell me where you're going you don't tell me when you're coming back I have a rough idea so I said I give you this phone number you go talk to this person he will get in touch with me when you want anything sorted out these are the kinds of pressures we have to work with and long hours just with two kids to look after is is tough and um you cannot tell them where you're going what you're doing right that's another thing is that they just know you've gone and you can't say which the reason I'm asking is you know because", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-38", "text": "say which the reason I'm asking is you know because um I recently met a woman pilot uh she's a wing commander and uh her uh her brother Works in some some kind of a military setup which is Intel based and or Special Forces I don't know what she he works for she couldn't tell me and I couldn't ask Beyond a point and she said you know uh he's gone for more than a year and she says we don't know whether we just know he's alive that's all we don't know anything beyond that so the mother just sits there that since she's not received bad news that's good news so does that work even for a spy that when when you are out on an assignment your family uh if it's not got news for some time they presume that everything is okay is that how it works there are two kinds of assignments you know if you go on a long-term assignment then it is this is what happens that you you assume that no news is good news but the kind", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-39", "text": "assume that no news is good news but the kind of assignments I had used to be short two three four days and back so it wasn't as if I'm gone and I don't know when I'm coming back where I've gone those things normally happen to people who are actually doing this spying hmm doesn't happen to those who handle spies or those who handle operations okay we are the guys we don't we don't go breaking safes ourselves you're the Handler we are the handlers so the Spy is the guy who comes and gives you this thing that's a special kind of training for that work yes would he also be called raw then no he's he's not an raw operative in that sense he's not a government employee he's a spy the private venture that must take a different kind of training mentality grit determination I could think of all kinds of things uh you know adjectives to add to that you know courage courage and presence of mind the thing is nothing is worse not no fear is", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-40", "text": "thing is nothing is worse not no fear is greater than the fear of a spy in a hostile country alone one mistake and he's gone a use of a wrong word can give race question you know my calling appears something else in Punjab I don't know I don't know enough Punjabi but there are there are different words just colloquially used in different parts of the country if you don't use the right word that people look at you hmm so but you're a Punjabi you live from here so you're out there when we were running agents use infiltrate them in the night darkness of night then he has to send you confirmation that he's reached his destination safely he couldn't send it Direct he would send it to another country and then we'll get it it could take days it could take weeks you just wait and you wait sometimes it never came what do you go through as a Handler when you know that you have sent somebody and he's probably gone it's awful awful because", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-41", "text": "and he's probably gone it's awful awful because it's not as if that he's got a number Register that is a employee of the government that you are honor bound There are rules and regulations that you will look after the family so we try and do that we look after the families that's all you can do that's all you can sort of protect them or give give them employment or jobs family is not allowed to speak about it to the trauma some some of them do comes to my mind um of course India says that he's not as by Pakistan insists he's a spy nobody knows what will happen with him and it's as if everything is forgotten about him yeah so it seems that he's gone into the deep underground yeah forgotten I met somebody who once said that it's probably better for him if he's dead because the kind of torture that happens in Pakistan to people from India who are suspected to be spies is horrific yep have you met with somebody who has", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-42", "text": "yep have you met with somebody who has come back alive no I haven't you haven't who survived there but um I remember Mr Rahman saying you you were talking about your colleague you Mr Rahman saying that um Black Ops were stopped by Mr gujral I want to ask you whether that's right or wrong or whatever but uh how important are Black Ops and especially with an india-pakistan sen you know kind of relationship I think it depends on the gravity of the relation or the the enmity and if the other side is going to work on you with terrorism and stuff like that then you've got to have Black Ops it's it's part of the trade then I had General BK saying on the show and he was talking about uh an an organization that he had created you know about that too the TSD and uh they conducted operations in many places so I asked him I said I've heard that this was done outside India's borders um but Black Ops had stopped because that's what we had", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-43", "text": "but Black Ops had stopped because that's what we had heard that Mr gujral so he responded he quipped and he said gujral by then and he said that that was necessary to create post 2611. uh because it's necessary to hit the enemy in their absolutely right you know we've never ever retaliated in the manner that we should have you look go through any of these incidents 93 we had the Bombay Bomb Blast what did we do and we had this horrible incidents in Kashmir where the kashmiri Hindu pundits had to flee we had the kidnapping of uh Sister Sister huh we had the killing of the the Air Force Squadron leader what did we do in return we later described Yasin Malik as a moderate so if you are going to treat them like this 2006 Bombay bomb lost train loss serial bombing we did nothing 2008 that horror of Mumbai we did nothing we declared Pakistan as a victim of terrorism remember yes and Havana I think yeah", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-44", "text": "victim of terrorism remember yes and Havana I think yeah decided they're also victims of terrorism naturally they're going to enjoy all this they'll step it up there was also Sharma Sheikh in which we yeah we below we accepted was brought on the table yeah after after shanmal Sheikh no you tell me it's um fine if you were to say that we have not done it you I presume you mean that the political leadership doesn't take the decision to do what we saw later as The Valor code strike maybe clandestinely we did with the TSD unit but straight away there are there is talk that we do do that but we don't talk about it we don't boast about it at the border we do we do take like a unit to unit will do it if if a unit in Kashmir at the loc there has been uh there has been a bombing or Skirmish two men gone here sure enough there will be an attack because it has to be Avenged yeah those kind of things happen", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-45", "text": "to be Avenged yeah those kind of things happen it never makes it to the papers when you say that you know so many instances where we didn't take any proactive move does the raw give intelligence to the political leadership that hey you've got to take this move you've got to take a proactive step otherwise they are galvanizing to do more on occasions yes there is an input that this is that unless there is political messaging political military messaging this will continue so it probably don't we don't do it every time it happens but there are assessments made and saying that this has to be done because the message must reach those who take decisions there I mean just an odd incident doesn't make a difference to them it doesn't hurt them like balakot would have hurt them because it's the message that is important URI was another message that was important that we will strike within your life we have the ability to do it and we will do it and we will do it again so that messaging has", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-46", "text": "and we will do it again so that messaging has to go unless that message you know this border May two hair and two there doesn't make a difference nobody it's it's a it's a number it's a figure who died in a skirmish but the political visible message is what has to be sent so what is your counterpart uh in Pakistan like the isi does that that do they take you guys seriously the raw do they feel that this is a potent organization because in India everybody says the isi because every every terror attack was is a masterminded by isi what about them they also say this their papers also say the same thing about us and I should have brought that I forgot to bring it they brought out a cartoon on me once uh me and a pied Piper's dress with the pipe playing on it they signboard saying India another one saying Pakistan and behind all the mice huh following me and on that they wrote Pakistani media why did they write that now I I was", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-47", "text": "media why did they write that now I I was I made the mistake of telling somebody yeah this is good for us this is this is an ongole were you cultivating the Pakistan media they think so so were you cultivating the Pakistan media well that's a belief that they have I'm don't want to deny it okay see uh one has heard about how the Indian and uh Pakistani spy Chiefs meet at different locations and then Vapor circuits business as usual yeah yeah I I've I've been to one of those meetings one or two of those meetings two early days of retirement nothing to do you ordered their people to be killed they've ordered our people to be killed yeah and still you can talk yeah I mean it's strange isn't it so we met and I found after the second meeting it was Unreal unreal I mean you just gleep talk and you say the same thing everybody says the same thing standard positions and we say we will do what it's good to meet and chat where do things", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-48", "text": "what it's good to meet and chat where do things get stuck Kashmir or more no I think it's the whole mindset it's a whole mindset Kashmir to me is the excuse the Pakistan Army finds Kashmir as a useful tool to retain Supremacy in Pakistan if you take Kashmir if you there's an article once father saying had written many many years ago that what if Pakistan India and Pakistan come to an agreement and what if for our given's sake the Pakistani and the Indians say yeah take it take Kashmir what will you do then the answer is then we will say that now we've got more territory to defend against these wretched Indians so we must expand he must have bigger Army you must have more weapons so they'll turn the equation around nothing will change in the Pakistan Army because nothing will change in the Pakistan mindset is the raw totally oriented towards one enemy which is Pakistan or is it ready for this two front war that we've already arrived at where there's", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-49", "text": "front war that we've already arrived at where there's China also I've always felt and I've always said so that a main threat is China Pakistan can give you is a nuisance value will give you hurt sometimes it'll give you it can't defeat you it can't overpower you militarily militarily or any other way they can't overpower you but the Chinese can make a difference to your lives they are more powerful their economy is much bigger the Army is much bigger they have greater and then we are dealing with the totalitarian state where decisions taken are not questioned here we are not even prepared to accept that Bala Court happened so for us to be able to one minute what do you mean we are not ready to accept Bala Court happen who we the Indian opposition that didn't accept balakot was actually that it was a fake or it didn't really happen and how many killed that kind of thing so when your own opposition wants to discredit you how are you going to fight", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-50", "text": "to discredit you how are you going to fight a joint War so at that time the thing was that proof Nidia so how much of a responsibility is it of rnaw to give when you give intelligence to the political leadership do you have to hand over Intel as in proof Intel like satellite maps or what to say definitely satellite maps are given to show the locations after all we get handed over the tip yes please explain that what happened for those who don't know about this whole conversation that happened tell us about that you know when they had mounted this attack in uh on the on Cargill and up to a point they were doing well we were at the receiving end and they were pounding us from Heights and then as this tide began to turn Musharraf had gone to Beijing and there he Rings up Aziz Khan and they talk to each other and the conversation is the guys were fighting and that we are controlling the whole operation so um don't have to tell him anything", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-51", "text": "whole operation so um don't have to tell him anything just tell him everything is okay but we'll carry on like this don't tell the Prime Minister don't tell them the Prime Minister yeah okay so that conversation gave evidence that the Pakistani they were saying that we have not done it the infiltrated or not that they are actually involved so RDW taped that conversation we had tape that gone we got that tape and we would never declare it but it was found to experience to declare it and then that pipeline closed I mean the sense that we couldn't get hold of any open conversation like this between the visiting when the visit abroad the next when they visited abroad the next time they didn't use the same method of communication but did it Aid in ending a war it made a lot of difference yeah that that's after that uh Nawaz went running to Bill Clinton Bill Clinton because he had been done in by his own people yeah suppose that line had not been there in that conversation it wouldn't have", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-52", "text": "not been there in that conversation it wouldn't have hurt no it would have hurt still because the fact is that you're admitting that you are doing it and saying you're not doing it therefore we are telling the world this is this is an invasion this is not a freedom fight you know there's so much difference between Pakistan and India when I was speaking with General Kulkarni he mentioned this incident that when operation make doth when siachen was you know it brought under Indian control being a series said to have stormed into GHQ in Pindi and uh she's supposed to have brought Bangles with her I don't know this is folklore and she's supposed to have thrown The Bangles on the table and said that you have lost and she was killed at some point of time I'm not saying Musharraf did it but musharov got his revenge in that she died Bhutto at that time insulted General Ayub Khan the military insulted he was assassinated you can never", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-53", "text": "military insulted he was assassinated you can never imagine a parallel in India so those who say India Pakistan we are the same people what do you have to say to that we are not the same people and here the the the ethos is totally different if I mean look at the way our army function look at the way their army functions their overlords they rule the roost they they I know um Pakistani once and he said I've met you for the next Diplomat I I used to be a friend of so and so who is now an air marshal I say yeah he's retired okay give me his address was visiting so I said so-and-so place he was familiar with Delhi he looked DDA flat air marshal yeah middle class income middle income group Housing Society is what DDA is which is like two bedrooms or three bedrooms maximum with a small balcony uh and no Garden as such to speak of that is what a DDA is so it's unimaginable I'm just explaining it", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-54", "text": "is so it's unimaginable I'm just explaining it to our viewers sir because you know uh we have people who live abroad who may not know what a DDA flat is I never remember that yeah so just to explain to them that you know that's why people make fun keyboard plotistani Pakistan it goes by rank you're allotted Land by rank for Thailand is allotted to the generals first and then picking order right now if if I was to you know you in earlier in the interview in this podcast you were talking about successes and failures we've had one prime minister who was assassinated we've had one ex-prime Minister who was assassinated was that Intel failure did was Mrs Gandhi not told that her bodyguards I mean it could be raw or IB or whoever uh is the Intel story is the story I heard about Mrs Gandhi's case was that they had withdrawn the Sikh gods and she found out that those two or three didn't know by name but they had gone", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-55", "text": "or three didn't know by name but they had gone and they were replaced and she said that bring them back otherwise how can I be considered secular this is the legend I don't know I have never no have don't have the evidence but that's how it happened so there are times where uh Prime Ministers disregard uh intelligence that is given to them you know when you see them going and mixing with you know the politicians love this adulation and mixing and that's part of part of their drill I suppose part of their way of life want to be seen with the people shaking hands and moving around but that's a security man's Nightmare how do you know absolutely that's how Rajiv died ltte LTT because he was in not but I don't think he had any guards then was there intelligence that he would have been assassinated later I think they found decode messages that were decoded later that there was evidence that they might that they were planning but you know it's like saying that", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-56", "text": "were planning but you know it's like saying that 911 also information was available but those are information that came to be analyzed after the event because so much comes in you don't know which is right which is wrong so where were you in 1984 1984 golden temple time no way in 1984 I'm going to tell you why 84 where were you 90 were you in India yeah so 84 is Operation make dude 84 is Operation Blue Star and 84 is when Mrs Gandhi died or was assassinated two huge military operations that she undertakes bold some say not probably planned probably as far as blue star is concerned and she's assassinated does it come as a shocker to the intelligence community at that time it's the first prime minister assassination that's happened to the country I mean CIA has gone through this before um isi has had assassinations in their country it's the first assassination of an Indian Prime Minister sitting prime minister how does the intelligence Community cope with this it's you know how", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-57", "text": "the intelligence Community cope with this it's you know how do I say it I was not in Delhi when this happened I was in Srinagar and then we heard this news and you know the whole office just like you know almost see physically crumbling and they were we had some Sikh officers to they were personal there I mean it there was just there's no explanation there was no um definition of how what you felt There Was Fear there was a sadness of course and although many said that this shouldn't have happened Golden Temple should not have happened but that's not a matter the fact that she was killed a woman killed you know we also have that kind of a Feeling and killed so it it was it was shock it was just shocked like anybody else it wasn't the I suppose different from my but then what happened later was even worse the riots the riots that and you know when you have seek of sick personnel with you and you have these rights and", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-58", "text": "personnel with you and you have these rights and you you have to tell them go and stay in this place go and hide is this Intel available from from our friends abroad that uh this kind of a thing could happen that the kalistanis could be mounting not just an attack on a prime minister but subsequently they would be doing much more a real and potent threat at that stage you if you if you read the sidhu's book he said it was all yeah made up we we created it ourselves but you know once you create then it has a life of its own and then it evolves and develops and then it gets you know repeat repeat to fences or copycat instant like now there's amarpal Singh movement is growing this one of course is obviously aided from abroad but the other one bindranwala thing was just that he it just got out of hand prabhakaran to prabhakaran also we uh we didn't get out of hand maybe we just couldn't handle it let me come to the", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-59", "text": "we just couldn't handle it let me come to the attempt assassination attempt on Rajiv Gandhi tell us about that October 2nd yes 1986. there was where were you it was a headquarters hmm and we saw that report came to us a few days before that this is going to happen is going to take a pot shot and we Faithfully sent the report off to who was supposed to act on it well the report got lost somewhere so they had apparently surveyed the whole area but forgot the bush forgot to look up at the tree huh bush tree tree yeah he was sitting in a tree yeah but they used they used those detectors and everything he stayed the night he stayed overnight fortunately nothing happened he was not all that well I believed he was not all that well armed he didn't have he had a shotgun it wasn't a highly Lethal Weapon or anything but depends on how it's fired or when it's fired so he was then later on they said no", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-60", "text": "fired so he was then later on they said no this man is off it was mentally off yeah was that to cover up the fact that uh yet another prime minister had become vulnerable to an attack assassination attempt you know how do you react in sitting in raw that is there a is there a slanging match yelling match that happens then there was no yelling match as far as I remember because I didn't participate in any of the discussions but apparently my chief went and said that you had this hmm I believe some some heads rolled that day the prime ministers that you worked with the self went gave tell straight up that's the like you don't necessarily go via the National Security advisor right you spoke that was as far as I know it was prime minister vajpai and Dr Manmohan Singh I didn't interact with Mr doctor at all okay I had only one prime minister my term was too short two years and three months okay today was my last day 20 years ago okay", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-61", "text": "okay today was my last day 20 years ago okay so when you spoke with uh prime minister vajpayee what was that like like how did he process information did you give him information about Cargill or was it somebody not Cargill sorry yeah Cargill no you were two Junior then probably to speak with them I I wasn't here anyway okay so what about when you became Chief and when you used to meet prime minister vajpayee what were those he was he was a very um kind in the sense that patient he would listen to you patiently comment and and you know you you could argue with them and say no this is that you could even say this is not the right way I would do it like this prepared to listen and prepare to change his line of thinking so we also at that time had a very strong principal secretary Rajesh Mishra who's similarly uh mental makeup was similar but you could you could say that this is what you're suggesting is not possible I would want you", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-62", "text": "you're suggesting is not possible I would want you to do it like this there would be a discussion he'd hold his ground I'd hold mine and come back then I go back again the next day and and he's prepared to listen again and change his mind because he had the confidence so did vajpayer that inner confidence came I can be wrong or the other man is saying is probably better and that that helps you a lot when you're sending in your assessments that even if I am wrong I can be wrong also I mean not that my assessment is always right but it will not be he was wrong in trusting nawash Sharif wasn't he yeah I think all prime ministers have made that mistake unfortunately what mistake of trusting the counterparts Bhutto Indra Gandhi Indra Gandhi she trusted him she said later I could wait for you to say that it's a bilateral issue and I went back on that um who was after him I don't think Rajiv Gandhi no Rajiv there", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-63", "text": "don't think Rajiv Gandhi no Rajiv there wasn't much but yes I don't think he trusted her and he didn't have that much of interact but she was totally uh on board with the military as far as Kashmir is concerned first time when she said she wanted to say wailing and shouting yeah so those who say think that she's an apostle of peace is this post-assassination building of a matterhood around also after she lost the second time you've met her several times right yep she was changing her tune becoming more pro-india and after her second term when she wanted to go back to Pakistan and she was advised not to do it they'll kill you she said I have to do it she went so but it doesn't end with that even to date Mr Modi went to Pakistan with good intention he stopped by Nawaz sharif's uh home he invited nawash Sharif for the swearing-in ceremony he trusted Xi Jinping invited him over uh these are things that", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-64", "text": "Jinping invited him over uh these are things that political leaderships do it's a different matter that from nehru's time we have been stabbed in the back so would the intelligence organization say stop don't do this or do this Beyond a part you can't say it Beyond a point you can't say this is not advisable sir that's it you want to do it what can you do but you I can't hold the door and say you can't go but you have to stay the path in providing them intelligence how they consume it is the part of it's their job it's their job okay now um is intelligence tailor-made to suit what the political leadership wants because we heard that with say you know George Tennant and giving tailor-making that intelligence for George Bush yeah for the war slam dunk slam dunk has something similar happened in India not that I'm aware of that we've given information that the chief wants to hear partly perhaps also because you know for them Stakes are much higher when you", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-65", "text": "you know for them Stakes are much higher when you say Chief you mean prime minister yeah prime minister I mean for us we'd say it's a one to the decision making is the prime minister and his cabinet we tell the Prime Minister what we think of a situation and beyond that I have not heard of anybody saying his report however unpleasant information is given to the prime minister to the best of my knowledge yes did you feel at any time when you achieved that you gave information and it was not acted upon and there's a sense of regret I can't think of any no acted on everything oh I mean you you give the information and how they act is you're not aware I'm not aware of what they did with it they don't tell me they don't have to tell me and I don't have to know maybe you when that uh Air India plane was hijacked Indian Airlines plane was hijacked I was in Delhi 1819 yes I wasn't really I just landed in Delhi well", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-66", "text": "wasn't really I just landed in Delhi well a month to Before from an assignment of posting yeah posting what went wrong then simply not being able to take the right decision at the right time and that's very crucial right in the intelligence world yeah no once the hijacking has occurred to prevent it from going further you have to take a decision like like you the the station commander of the air at Rome knows that airport knows that when a hijack takes place you have to make every attempt to prevent that put a Bowser in front of the aircraft or whatever then the fear is that if the hijackers say if you do that I'll kill six people or I'll kill 10 what do you do if that happens then everybody will blame the station Commander and that's it so he doesn't Choice yeah so you you pass the buck I'll ask the commissioner I'll ask the Deputy Commissioner commissioner Chief secretary PM chief minister so where how do you enforce that order which exists", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-67", "text": "so where how do you enforce that order which exists in your book that you have to do this and if the plane I got forbid if they had blown up the plane all dead nobody will ever say that he was acting according to rules and the rules is that we don't negotiate with terrorists we don't we don't do hospitals but we do we do we control every country does eventually you do negotiate you have to that is when you need Experts of that kind and then we release those hostages yeah and the minister escorted those hostages yes as suppose you know this was not the first time we did it we did it in uh Srinagar also so they know that these chaps they will act they will release eventually but after that what happened hijackings just stopped in the world um did Terror organizations just stop was there this thing that naked or did it continue with taking hostages at a different level did Security increase what happened I think then it kind of hostages uh method", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-68", "text": "I think then it kind of hostages uh method of taking hostages has changed it has um like the hostages that they take in in the Middle East they don't need any aircraft they don't need anything you just come pick them up and take them away take them away when we talk about uh you know people you've been working with uh I've heard everything is in silos like you could be working your room could be next to another person's room and you've known that person for 15 years 20 years but you won't know what he's working and he won't know what you're working now for us journals it's very hard to understand because hum looks of information no it's like this um when you're doing operations not just analysis through separate things when you're doing operations then it is not only silos it can also be that this guy at the bottom of the rung does it with the third or fourth guy from the top and the guys in between don't know and need to know they will not know so", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-69", "text": "know and need to know they will not know so The Silo works like this comes down number three goes to number seven four five six submitted and we are all expected to accept that this is an operation where it's so sensitive you don't want too many people involved but an analysis is different because then you need to interact after all if you're doing something in China and Pakistan you must have the Pakistani assessment as well on the situation to make a full picture it may not happen at the lower level it will happen at some level there will be an interaction between the and people who are assessing the intelligence to make sure that you factored in everything whether you factored in The Intercept messages you factored in the photographs you've acted in the audio etc etc to make a complete picture but when you're doing operations then it's different so what happened with that rabindra Singh episode I mean you had retired by then he escaped and the rumors are that he is no more so where did things", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-70", "text": "are that he is no more so where did things go wrong I really don't know I've never asked anyone and no one will tell me when they shouldn't but you knew him well I knew that it was rabindra Singh it was a joint secretary in the organization he wasn't a particular friend of mine and uh I think you see the good thing is every every intelligence agency's nightmare is that there is a mole you've written that in your book no so that is the fear that you have but you don't know how to find him unless you can keep they do random uh searches surveillances on people they must have done it on me also and everybody else it gets his turn is a behavioral counter Intel or something the inbuilt system who you meet where do you go etc etc so probably during that thing I found out or probably because he I believe he became very inquisitive so that was a signal so if we're homing in on him but the thing is that he's", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-71", "text": "in on him but the thing is that he's twice trained meaning he's trained by us yeah for a certain kind of job he's been trained by his Masters how to look for signs how to look for Escape Routes how to lay down Escape Routes that must have been worked out so when the news tightened he fled via Nepal yeah I suppose so yeah I believe so that's always the porous route and even now people saying that Amrita Radha and nikal Gaya nobody really knows but that's the porous route which has been used many times many times sometimes for Advantage us sometimes that's how the hijackers even got the weapon they got the weapon like that and but they also had Indian passports given by Bombay RPO genuine genuine passports yeah somewhere I have a record of their names and all hmm and in Hindu names and they made use of that so I'm going to come now to the Bollywood depiction and the Hollywood depiction of what uh spy networks are you know", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-72", "text": "depiction of what uh spy networks are you know when you look at the Hollywood movies uh across the years you know like if it is even the British movies if you were to see Bond movies and you see then you know all the James Bond movies and then you see Hollywood depiction of their spy movies Bridger spies and I can name so many of them uh they're so well made they're so sharp and then you have Indian spy movies which Indian spy movie would you say is the closest to the truth is it Salman Khan tiger would it be Akshay Kumar you're laughing they're hilarious movies and it's only see them as a as a comedy it's okay but not serious movies this Salman Khan movie is more likes a Bond movie with more glamor and what is it isi girl and uh ridiculous story anyway but it it's all I believe yeah so what about the other movies like what about pathan you know of all the all the raw people that I have seen in", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-73", "text": "the all the raw people that I have seen in my life I've never seen anybody who looks like John Abraham or Shahrukh Khan so do you have people in your organization who look like Shahrukh no Salman no Akshay no I mean you might have a a tall good looking funnel but the whether he's physically fit that way I don't know would he be would an raw officer be romantically involved with an isi officer I'll be short if he does that shot by who am I the isi Oh by this kind it depends if you don't say it but it's shot by who no if it is a an operation that you go and support that girl it's different but if he does it on his own then it's different so do you know of like of course there's that you know that movie of Alia Bhatt that is based on real life that is razi razi where she was sent across she got married and settled there are instances when it's happened their marriages do take", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-74", "text": "instances when it's happened their marriages do take place like this but she works lives in a general's house she is able to do the communication Network and she is able to get documents and something else and then she's actually been married off by some her Handler or something like that I don't remember the sequence I think it's a bit rich but you would have years ago I mean is there any operation that you can talk about where somewhat similar to what happened you can't talk about no I I didn't have an operation like that that's what you're saying I'm sure there must be some operation you can tell us about there is no such operation no such operation involving the raw with the isi but is there any operation where you've sent somebody on a mission and has been successful of course across the border and he's come back alive with information yes and was that information acted upon I don't know and what is there any my job is to collect information and give it my job is not to know whether", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-75", "text": "and give it my job is not to know whether they will act on it or not but you can deduce from events whether it has been acted upon or not and sometimes you can make out that yes there has been a change in policy change in direction or changing tactics but you can never boast about it you can never talk about it never your successes and your failures stay with you failures get known successes stay even failures are not known right one doesn't know all the failures yeah yeah what happened yeah what happened with with our operation in Sri Lanka why did we just leave we lost men and material we've lost land in on the Eastern sector there must have been some failures there was there must have been some failure in pulwama but you know all major incidents Mumbai repeatedly they're all systemic failures the whole system seems to have information is available nobody acts Cargill information is available nobody really takes it seriously and this happened you can't pinpoint assassinations you can't", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-76", "text": "happened you can't pinpoint assassinations you can't pinpoint all Terror attacks they have to be right ones as you've said in many occasions you can't stop all of them they will keep happening so whether that you call it failure of intelligence or or lack of intelligence imperfect intelligence that's a matter of judgment but they will happen you've been critical in your writings about how the media reports on incidents and especially on 26 11 uh you your colleagues who have written after you those who uh superannuated they have been very angry about how the media reveals information yeah that's true what are the lessons that the media should have learned after 26 11 what is it that you feel that there is a better sense or there or they haven't learned at all after 26 11 which are the major incidents we've had several yes no tendency of course is to First say failure of intelligence and then to talk about failure but the worst is when you give live commentaries on an ongoing incident that has", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-77", "text": "give live commentaries on an ongoing incident that has always to be avoided because that is the worst thing in these days of satellite Communications and everybody their Master mind is sitting the other side watching it he knows who is hiding where and he's telling them I mean it's it's fortunate that the court hold of kasab otherwise you would not have known anything so we have that I think this is a kind of training that we have to give media that look you please cover but don't do live coverage it's not a cricket match therefore live deafer live next day maybe don't say what is going on you know this is what's happening I've spoken to so and so that is something that you have to strictly avoid but then uh you know it was during the Iraq war that there was something called embedded journalism where uh in a war uh situation the military takes journalists with them the Intel operatives travel with the journalists and information is fed to the journalist and and then critical questions are", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-78", "text": "fed to the journalist and and then critical questions are not asked because the media is embedded with the military so we saw this during the the war that was the first war where you had that embedded journalism and all you got was that oh thought what a fabulous thing that's happening everything is in hindsight you know that there were no wmds yeah you fought a wrong war obl was sitting somewhere else he was sitting right next to Pindi yeah he was sitting in a different country altogether you bombed Afghanistan so what is the mistake then the journalist did what he was supposed to do he didn't do live he went with the military he reported on what the intel was provided to him and what the military gave well that's he's providing doctored information the doctoring is done by the Intel organization and the military yeah it is done by them to to uh to strengthen your narrative to strengthen your storyline that we've done the right thing and see how great we", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-79", "text": "we've done the right thing and see how great we are we got this place we got that place these chaps are running away but you don't tell the truth you don't tell the civilians how many civilians were killed you got the wrong bomb wrong wrong place was bombed that nobody gets to hear this part of your media management would India do that kind of media management that's falsification yeah I hope not because you if you give wrong in information it has to be both ways Smith eye because the media should accept that there's not everything that they should report there is always wisdom and not reporting something at that time because then you're hurting the guy who's fighting the war for you you're endangering him and civilians if you give out details but if you want to do it later if you want to do a critique two days three days four days later that's fair enough because we will make mistakes when these things happen we somebody will get killed by mistake erroneously it will", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-80", "text": "will get killed by mistake erroneously it will happen because In the Heat of the battle you don't really know so there has to be a an understanding that there is a terror event and I need not talk all about talk all everything about it I should withhold something till confirmation or advice and then let it be known right now this kind of thinking that it's for the country it's for the soldier it's for it's for security these are things that come naturally say because of your training you're in the Raw it would come naturally to you it would come naturally to a soldier a uniformed Soldier there's no such training imparted to a journalist no such training imparted to now not just a journalist anybody with a cell phone you can pick take a picture yeah so we saw that happening in the Eastern sector when the whole crisis was happening with galwan and all that there were people who were taking videos politician on the ground or whatever that also happens so um what", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-81", "text": "ground or whatever that also happens so um what kind of what should a civilian do at that stage he has the visual he has he has some proof that something has happened what does he do does he call the media and say hey I have pictures that that infiltration has happened does he tell the cops does he what should what should we or should he be just post it on Twitter I think the responsible thing to do is to tell those who are exposed supposed to guard you or guard the territory that I have this information you confirm it or deny it up to you but if you're going to put it out on Twitter then whose cause are you serving it means that everybody knows your enemies know the man who's done it knows so does the the uh the military man who might be seeing the Twitter or Whatsapp or wherever it is but then the whole world knows and then you have politicians of one side taking advantage of it you have politician on the other side denying", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-82", "text": "it you have politician on the other side denying it then you get into denial acceptance mode which helps no one so we have to I think and the interaction between the media and the security agencies has to be livelier has to be more accommodating it's usually suspicious yes it should be look that you have it is your job to report I'm telling you too I'm helping you to report the right thing and I want you to not report this till it is over because this for reasons of security after that you can so this kind of an understanding has to be education has to be built in the media that not everything is trb not everything there is a thing called the nation that needs protection and if you're going to endanger your own men then how are you going to be able to protect them or help them protect you if you're exposing everything and then they'll say I'm not going to do it because I get exposed fortunately it doesn't happen hasn't happened yet but that", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-83", "text": "doesn't happen hasn't happened yet but that could be the feeling of the family who says that you know because you expose this my husband died that is not fair at all because behind each Soldier each intelligence officer there is a family there is a group of friends there's an organization who are meant to provide intelligence and protection if you're going to hurt them then how do we go further what about intelligence sharing between the various arms of intelligence in the organization I mean in the country like does the IB and the raw and the military intelligence and the others do they share information or are they very territorial there is an element of territoriality that has to be admitted but you have we have a center poet where information should reach that's where the sharing should take place which is where arbitration should be the jic and now I think it's the nscs where the arbitration would take place about the intelligence reports but there is there is an element of you know I got it first or", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-84", "text": "an element of you know I got it first or situation among Intelligence on the ground at the field station not wanting to share right um without naming I would say that sometimes uh say one Minister cannot get along with the Prime Minister that Minister has got the information will not share with the pmo or the pmo has information but the action has to be taken by the defense minister or by the home minister and there have been instances in the past where because of these the competitiveness of these politicians the intelligence falls through the crack what then National Securities put at risk well sharing if you don't share then you obviously creating problems for everybody and it has to be institutionalized in the sense that you've got to share it if you don't share it there has to be somebody has to be blamed for it or felt responsible have you seen this happening no you have never seen this happening that intelligence was given to politicians and because of their personal rivalries actually raw doesn't give any", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-85", "text": "of their personal rivalries actually raw doesn't give any intelligence to any politician except the Prime Minister but for the prime minister to act he has to share that or he has to tell others do they do that it depends you know if you're if you're giving an information which relates to the Army and you want to share it at that particular level then you do sometimes send the report both to the defense minister and the prime minister so it is shared and is like advice given for example you say that an attack is imminent so we should preemptively attack is that kind of you just you just tell them you're a preemptive attack that's it unless asked we will not say it what should be done is not in the Ambit of the raw no okay right so in conclusion if you when you look back on your years in the Raw would you have done uh anything differently would you have like said no this is not what I want to do I want to do something else oh lots of", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-86", "text": "do I want to do something else oh lots of things you might have done differently but how to say it no that um it's it's all actually how you look at a situation if you think that you're an optimist and you feel that you will get a get a result from this but if you think you're a realist and you feel that you won't get any result from this so if you're asked then I would say no I don't think you should be doing it like this it won't work for you so apart from that living a life in the shadows not being able to uh not being able to pursue relationships with friends in a totally open and transparent manner like you said there are sometimes your you have to keep a duplicitous personality does it impact on your psyche no I think you get used to it there are some people who can't take it and they quit and go away there are some who stay on who who enjoy the work you've got to love the work you got", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-87", "text": "the work you've got to love the work you got to enjoy it and you got to be ready for surprises you you can't always be ready for something will surprise you but you've got to be to expect the unexpected that has to be there and grueling hours pardon me for saying this sir but I have seen often that this happens with many uh people who are in the security scenario when they are in office It's hammer and tongs against Pakistan but once they superannuate it's certainly bhaichara [Music] how does that Jekyll and Hyde happen I don't know I can't say how I can't answer them I think many of us play by the ear we play that this is the the mood of the nation this is the mood of the people or I am always right so I will pursue this goal you've ordered people to kill people you've ordered people to infiltrate their homes their organizations to get information for national interests the experts will say that this is part of my job", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-88", "text": "experts will say that this is part of my job I have to trouble on him so I have to play with them and he is playing the same game with you he wants to support you too so there's two playing the same game that I'll play golf with General X because I think I can put him in my pocket and he says he can play golf with Vikram suit because I think I can get him so you're tangoing huh so you play sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't work this is also an art it's also an art or a inbuild ability I'm asking a very crude question spies figure it out okay but it's true right it comes it goes It comes naturally okay when required you know it's not always we're not habitual yes okay but to not openly like if if I was to ask you have you had lunch would you say no because it automatically your training automatically comes to say tell you a lie no automatically I can say yes also I know also I", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-89", "text": "automatically I can say yes also I know also I can say yes when I have not had it and say no and I've had it with a straight face so I've seen you for several years now I remember this one incident uh when advani ji was hosting a movie uh when he was Deputy Prime Minister I don't know whether you recall that it was about loc and uh you were sitting near advani one row behind advani ji or hum log bilkulage all the you know like journalists were sitting in one corner and we were sitting there and in the movie uh it was on Cargill and that said intelligence report so he said ha what intelligence the entire audience looked towards you and your face was angry and I thought okay you know and advani ji looked at you like this sideways you didn't turn your head but your face was so angry I've never seen otherwise you have this very genial expression all the time but that day you were angry because you knew the truth intelligence", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-90", "text": "you were angry because you knew the truth intelligence yeah on the on Cargill yeah but that the story is like when when this Cargill Review Committee was going on we used to have those sessions grueling sessions and coming towards the end the senior officer comes to me and says what you're saying is right but you'll have to take the rep why you are the you've got to be the Fall Guy here and you were we I mean there was there was adverse comments on Raw intelligence shortage of intelligence weakness of intelligences and that we had given almost the entire orbit with the Pakistan Army in be okay two battalions were missing that became an issue if you get 80 of the orbit right your home so if you ask them what difference did it make to strategy if you had known these two locations would it matter no reply so that's how it was everywhere it's always the intelligence that takes the rep and you cannot say anything to that you just do your job okay to young Indians who want", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-91", "text": "just do your job okay to young Indians who want to be part of uh the Rew or intelligence network but don't want to really join the raw but want to in some way contribute to intelligence gathering to to National causes but keep a day job elsewhere how does that work that can work actually that can work you see now that we are at a stage where the root the normal source of recruitment of officers and Men through the upsc means you might get right offices you might get smart people but you're going to be looking for talent of a different kind skills of a different kind which this may not provide so you've got to find other avenues to find these this Talent you need a financial wizard you need a cipher wizard you need whatever dynamites or or whatever explosive experts Communications people you need different skills because even climate change because these are now becoming issues of security sure water water um rarer Rare Earth minerals which you've also again written in your book yes all these things you will need", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-92", "text": "in your book yes all these things you will need people where do you find them you find them in the open market what do you pay them you have to be a competitor you're talking about direct recruits now I'm talking of first finding the talent okay whether they want you want to use them as lateral entries for a fixed period of time okay five years or seven years contract over and out you help us do this project and then it's over you go or you have um people who come and stay with you and work through all the other thing like the agneepath scheme I'm coming to that exactly that you you know we now recruit a man I think I mentioned in my book also 25 26. he's recruited on deportation or initial induction by the time he is ready he's about 28 29 he's married he's got two kids the bigger the family you are going to be more and more risk-averse you don't want to take any chances though so you have a span of 30 60 years", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-93", "text": "though so you have a span of 30 60 years 30 years from 30 to 60. once he's matured but if you take a young man like like the Armed Forces do 16. you don't need a graduate or a postgraduate to be an operator to running operations you need a guy with different skills you need a person who will be able to adventurous Gambler risk taker courageous those qualities but a nationalist but a nationalist sixteen you make him your own graduate teach him language teach him a language so the by the time is 22 or 23 he is asset ready he's asset ready you got him from 28 to 60. otherwise you get a man from 35 to 60. out to the last 10 years he'll be wanting a desk job you know I go to marry my daughter off I've got to use this got old parents I can't move anywhere so you're losing that time you're getting him actually 15 years here you're getting much longer and he's there with you forever right so we have", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "69b3c2ace912-94", "text": "he's there with you forever right so we have to think of those uh that's that's what I've been advocating that catch them young you can mold them right thank you so much sir for giving us your time and sharing your experiences with us uh wishing you all the very best thank you thank you for having me thank you for watching or listening into this podcast do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste click here to watch the previous episodes [Music] foreign [Music]", "source": "RqZP-QZ9lx8"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-0", "text": "look better don't absolutely bad unbelievable what I saw the day previous to what else when I saw while I landed to what I was now seeing Sudden Change it turned blessed us how this particular thing came up was because bulkuma realized that the map that he was being shown had a straight line drawn from a point called nj9842 joining the karakoram pass it's not one man who does it it's a team that doesn't was quite uh forthright he said look the Chinese have occupied exciting because we were not attacked side chain then and since it's ah area we must occupy it pakistanis were sponsoring Expeditions through the saltoro Ridgeline because between the sultural Ridgeline and the karakora mountains is the siachen glacier jealous himself telling djsi so Pakistan is not a country which can be trusted at all you have to sustain 10 men on top of belafontla probably whatever tail which is a 40 to 50 men when we were hoisting the national flag over there just", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-1", "text": "when we were hoisting the national flag over there just about reaching below I find a helicopter coming from the Pakistani Direction he saw that these intels are already on top of Bill of all so he took a U-turn and went back Namaste welcome to another edition of eni podcast with Smitha prakash joining me on this Edition is my colleague Ajit Dube editor National Security 13th April 2023 marks the 39th anniversary of operation make dude it was the Indian army operation to seize control of the siachen glacier which was considered the highest Battlefield in the world in 1984 the kumau regiment one of the oldest infantry regiments of the Indian army and units from the ladakh scouts nicknamed snow leopards were tasked with the responsibility of digging into and controlling the critical Peaks and passes of the glacier why was this significant what role did it play in the india-pakistan conflict did we learn lessons from the operation on the loc the line of control between India and Pakistan and has it", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-2", "text": "line of control between India and Pakistan and has it come into play when our forces deal with the ground situation at the line of actual control with China to to speak on operation make dude I have with me Lieutenant General Sanjay Kulkarni recipient of the param vishisht Seva medal ATI vishisht Seva medal Sharia chakra Sena medal vishished Seva medal thank you for coming on the podcast General Kulkarni it's an absolute honor to have you here 39 years since operation make Duty you were a young officer then so tell us what happened then thank you very much to have invited me it couldn't have other I could not have asked for a better platform wonderful thanks once again now going back 1984 that you referred to when we launched operation make dude of course as a young Captain I was familiar with that area and that is where we had that advantage and more than anything else it is again like they say in the Army it's not one man who does", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-3", "text": "say in the Army it's not one man who does it it's a team that does it so I owe whatever now that I am sitting in front of you I will wait entirely to my men my seniors and the Battalion that I was commissioned into Pokemon having said that let me tell you that in 1978 to begin with for the first time I got to know that something like siachen is there that's primarily because he was the commandant of the high altitude of warfare school and since the commandant high altitude Warfare school he was taking some officers onto syachan and as part of the course we had to climb a peak called Stoke mangrene Lake and we were also there and that's why we found out that seniors are going you know different direction and that they were going to a place called siachen Glacier and that's where we heard for the first time Glacier and not knowing that subsequently in 83 and in 84 I would also be a part of it now how this particular thing came", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-4", "text": "a part of it now how this particular thing came up was because while interacting with one of his own foreign Mountaineer realized that the map that he was being shown had a straight line drawn from a point called nj9842 joining the kalakaram pass now that alerted him as to how come this friend of his is carrying a map and has the point joining straight and mountains you don't have straight lines because the the Karachi agreement stated Point NJ 9842 dense North onto the glaciers and it wasn't that the Karachi agreement between India and Pakistan 1949. U.N mandated agreement absolutely so that is what it was so he when he saw that it sort of you know put him on this thing he said he requested his friend if he could give that map to him for rupees 500. he was a civilian uh that Mountaineer was a civilian some German friend of his a mountaineer were done with him previous Expeditions and are also done river rafting uh with Colonel bulkuma and therefore", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-5", "text": "river rafting uh with Colonel bulkuma and therefore again colonel bulkarma was still in the Indian army and that is where we are interacting and he said then when he saw this map he took the map and he got in touch with the Army headquarter uh since from the Kumar regiment the chief of the Army staff then was also from the Kumar regime in general Raina and then he got into who became chief of Army staff later Jal Rana was the chief of family oh he was already the chief of Army staff so he got in touch with him and he was put through together who was then the direct ability operations as Major General and so he asked him and bull was very well known in the Army for his exploits as a excellent Mountain yeah he will climb Mount Everest so he was a very excellent Mountaineer so he went and obviously what brought him and he said well I have a map and we're in the line shown is straight from point NJ 9842 joined the karakaram", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-6", "text": "is straight from point NJ 9842 joined the karakaram pass and thereby this is which year sir this is uh I'm talking 78 788 1978. so he was obviously he said is it so and when he looked into it he said yes he said now what is it that you want us to do now he said before this cartographic aggression by the pakistanis thought Angel was quite uh foreign Glacier by not being there and since it's ah area we must occupy it how do you plan to do it so before we go on to the whole expedition of how you occupied it you use this term cartographic aggression if you could just explain to our viewers and listeners what that means you know cartographic aggression means on the map you start showing certain areas which have international recognition that it is yours so slowly and steadily people start believing that this area belongs to the country that it is and therefore uh like you find like I said the cartographic aggression Glacier is in the karakoram ranges the", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-7", "text": "aggression Glacier is in the karakoram ranges the nj-9842 that is the the last demarcated delineated map on the ground and demarcated it wasn't beyond that no demarcation could be done because it's glaciated extremely difficult to go there and therefore it was said point ng9842 then not along the glacier so down the ridge along the glacier and obviously if you joined it to the karakoram pass the Chinese are supposedly accept as a one of the points on the their so-called Lac but accept it as a point between India and China as a boundary and that's a subsequent thing because they want the karakoram ranges we look at the cubland range and in between the cunnelin range and the karakoram range as the excitement so we lost the oxygiene or a pair of girls because we did not have people over there patrolling and doing things of those kind in a manner that we should have could have shown our occupation then in 50s so having said this said let's occupy", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-8", "text": "in 50s so having said this said let's occupy so what would he do so he said we will go for a patrolling of this area so online Kumar decides to patrol with these officers from the High Altitude Warfare School were part of the advanced is called and while he's doing that he is buzzed by the you know flown the pakis flew they say budgets over them to say that over the Indian army people who were then mountaineering this particular in 1978 78 and even subsequently went okay He did it so obviously pakis saw that the Indians are showing interest in this area which they believed as I said cartographic aggression they believed that this area belonged to them so this saber jets flying over uh uh the Indian team was it some kind of an aggressive stance or messaging a messaging to the Indian that this area belongs to us and you are not supposed to be there because pakistanis were sponsoring Expeditions through the soltoro ridge line because between the", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-9", "text": "through the soltoro ridge line because between the salturo Ridgeline and the karakura mountains is the siachen glacier which is about 76 kilometers long about between two to eight kilometers wide about 300 meters deep and this Glacier is uh I don't know the boy called it the third polar region extremely cold temperatures go as low as minus 50 degrees Centigrade your wind speeds of going as high as 100 kilometers per hour and you have snowing almost about 15 to 18 meters of snow in a year so this kind of inhospitable completely absolutely totally inhospitable and most of us uh except for these Mountaineers and nobody would want to venture it out so this is what Karlin Kumar did in 78 these did it again subsequently to show this thing and the pakistanis sponsoring Expedition foreign Expeditions primarily from Japan and UK Austria all of these people who are being sponsored to that particular area so there were two passes on the saltwater Ridgeland one was called The Bella", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-10", "text": "the saltwater Ridgeland one was called The Bella formula La Means a pass and the other one was ciala and so these two passes is where these foreign Expeditions would venture through siachen Glacier on to what would be terms a mountainous Paradise lovely Peaks Sia kangri kangri means a peak salty all these lovely Peaks that were there so obviously the pakistanis sponsoring Expeditions uh virtually came to a grinding hall because none of these Expeditions could come if the Indians are on the siachen glacier so on the siachen glacier you hear most of the time pakis talk of siachen they're nowhere near because saltaro onto the west and karakoram onto the East very distinctly you can make out because karakarama black in color range is absolutely black in color and you have sultural which is light brown in color and between these two ranges is this siacin Glacier and if you read Musharraf in the line of fire he says it very clearly the Indians preempted", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-11", "text": "he says it very clearly the Indians preempted them now at that point of time in 1983-84 Musharraf was a colonel who was part of the mo the ability Operations Branch and your view to what is going on and there then uh 10 core Commander uh Lieutenant General Jahan Pete Khan he was the uh co-commander and they had the northern area commander who was a major general uh he was again I think peer Khan and they had the SSG it was a brigadier Mahmoud was in charge and uh jalakta was the isi chief of that and Jal Zia was the chief of the Army staff and the president of Pakistan so this kind of a thing and obviously when they saw that in 1983 when I had the chance of being part of uh polar bear one and subsequently polar bear II as part of the mountaineering we used to call it the long range patrolling lrp and that lrp involved staying over the glacier for a period of about 80 to 90 days", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-12", "text": "glacier for a period of about 80 to 90 days and it would invariably be conducted from the month of June July like more convenient months to be on the glacier and terminated by September October so polar bear one and polar bear 2 were in 1982 83 8383 and then 84 that is 82 we had launched Ibex hunt so Ibex hunt was a long range Patrol which was launched in 82 and 83 was polar bear one and two and up make do in 1984 on the 13th one in polar bear 2 was your first impression of the siachen glacier yes and walking on this bear one and two both there was some difference now that's a very interesting question because there is a gap between polar bear one and polar bear 2 and why polar bear 2 had to be launched because uh when we launched the Ibex hunt in 1982 that was the time for the first time I got an aerial reconnaissance of the siachen glacier because we are just about gone there in a area", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-13", "text": "because we are just about gone there in a area called that is where my Battalion was and since we were there and this long range patrolling was going on I got a chance to fly with the helicopters to be seeing what theachen Glacier is all about and as luck would have it 83 I was told that I have to lead the long-range Patrol onto the glacier that's because the officer was leading in 1982 sprained his leg so he couldn't go in 83 so as I was there Patrol twice as I said no you have to choose so how we all took on this particular mission was in 83 like what you asked the question about uh why polar bear won and why polar bear too why we are in polar bear 1 and we were venturing and we warned the search English you know to be able to get to belafontla there were three camps which have to be set up camp one Camp two and camp three and even when uh Kal and Kumar when I went to uh", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-14", "text": "when uh Kal and Kumar when I went to uh on the xiachen glacier the porters you'll be surprised were paid the same sum of money per day as they would be paid climbing Mount Everest so the portal was there in Nepal assisting Mountaineers to climb Mount Everest were being paid then the same amount would be paid to the porters who were with us on the CIA in Glacier so that because who would venture because every Potter carried just about 15 kgs logistically we were only supported by the potters and of course by the helicopters uh over there so in 1983 as part of uh polar bear one when we went up to Belafonte I saw some rappers on the glacier I said it's a surprise who who could have come along this particular route and then there were rappers with markings which I didn't know then there were the Japanese or the Chinese because the script the characters are quite similar now of course I understand the script between difference between the Japanese script", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-15", "text": "I understand the script between difference between the Japanese script and the Chinese script there were Chinese rappers or Japanese Japanese so later on I was they were the Japanese rappers and some Japanese Mountaineers that wanted to come that way so when I saw those rappers obviously on the radio set informed that some rappers have been found on top of Belafonte and uh guess who came to see and interact with me none other than the later uh Jal bipin rava to became the CDs his father was then he came he was the chief of staff over there and he asked me I told him he was Northern command he was in I think part of 15 15 okay and he came there and he asked me and he took those rappers along in 1983 having taken the wrappers and the China the pakis got to know that we are on top of Indonesia so we inducted in the month of Summer a little mid-august caspas we deanducted the Pakistan let me interrupt you because this is not something", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-16", "text": "Pakistan let me interrupt you because this is not something that many people will understand what is the induction yeah now what happens is since I told you to a long range patrolling with a specific duration that we have to stay so we go and induct ourselves onto the glacier so since we have inducted on the glacier now is the time to de-induct because the it will now get very very cold extremely cold because the time that we are there June July August are months that are reasonably comfortable that we can stay on top of the glacier so now that we are de-inducted so both India and Pakistan used to de-induct in the winter months so Pakistan would never induct okay they would never be there they never had the Pakistani officers invariably accompanied the foreign Expeditions as a liaison officer to those Expeditions okay and they would the induct with the party which we had never seen if it had happened it would have happened in 78 79 and that period but noted induction", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-17", "text": "in 78 79 and that period but noted induction mean at that stage you'd put tents or you would dig in induction meant staying on the glacier for the duration that we are supposed to be maybe 60 days 75 days 90 days whatever be the duration so you properly pitched tents over there and you stay on the glacier so you are inducted in and de-inducted from the glacier so for Pakistan viewers Pakistan was not inducting before the siachen conflict let's be clear on that he's putting it on record and now now what you just said is a very important thing when we de-inducted from the glacier the pakistanis inducted okay now they realize that this is the Indians have left the glacier they inducted to see that if they could occupy the glacier in 1983. now this was revealed even by Musharraf in his book in the line of fire I've read that twice over because I can't believe that somebody could write self-praise so much really bothered", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-18", "text": "somebody could write self-praise so much really bothered him two generals of the Pakistan Army General whom their own officers have written lacked officer-like qualities yeah and he became the chief of the Army staff and the president and a martial law dictator and they're themselves written on musharra highly indisciplined wouldn't take orders so easily he's written that in his own book that that's what happens yeah as a Commando now what had happened was they inducted and when they inducted they couldn't sustain themselves on the glacier and whether they could sustain themselves on the glacier they inducted in the month of October and they couldn't and that was the SSG and Brigade Mahmoud was supposedly there uh you know a tough man on SSG Commando Brigadier who subsequently was replaced by musharra so Mahmoud decided that his team is not able to sustain itself and they deemed that and generally how long could they stay there sir they hardly could", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-19", "text": "long could they stay there sir they hardly could stay there they came and they less than a month not even two days probably okay on themselves extremely difficult to sustain themselves but that left a note for us and that note that they left to say that look you have inducted you know on the glacier which is ours and they then for the first time admitted to say that in point nj9842 line joins the karakoram pass and not as what the Karachi agreement said dense not along the glacier so that was the first admission by the pakistanis that this line now this is very cartographic now this is very important who joined this line pass now this also has a history because it's to call the Hudson's line the Americans did it as Americans as part of uh you know for aviators to fly they must know whether they're stepping into which country and you know where are they like so they Hudson's the Americans were being told time and again in 60s that looked the whole of", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-20", "text": "and again in 60s that looked the whole of Jammu and Kashmir is part of India and you cannot have this kind of line drawn uh Pakistan occupied Kashmir Jammu and Kashmir and all that kind of thing if the whole of it is ours and uh so and therefore this cartographic straight line being drawn or drawn by a person called Hudson as part of the American survey team and that Advantage pakistanis took because they were part of sentosito organization where they were with Pakistan with the Americans and the Americans at that point of time uh want had were perturbed with the Soviet Union having come into Afghanistan the pakistanis were training the mujai to throw the Soviets out of Afghanistan so whole lot of this geopolitics playing and at the same time when this was going on Zia told his isi chief at that point of time that look keep the Indians occupied in Punjab and they only can be able to occupy the action Glacier otherwise once you know there's a confrontation", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-21", "text": "Glacier otherwise once you know there's a confrontation then we may not be able to handle it yeah 1983 was at the peak Punjabi yeah the Soviets were in uh uh Afghanistan the Americans were wanting a foothold they were using Pakistan the Taliban and all these kind of things that were cropping up at that point of time so you found that at this point of time in the note was left by the Pakistani obviously uh yeah it was clear that pakistanis are now trying to show some interest in glacio Angel Chiba was will try to say that we have to occupy nothing we can't leave it uh default Theater Company we must occupy English and that area is approximately about 5000 odd square kilometers and uh in the originates from Indra called Coco is along here the nubra river and the shock river which then meets that culture and then this river goes and meets the Indus and uh now having said that and realized and they when they attempted to come in 1983 as", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-22", "text": "they when they attempted to come in 1983 as part of uh we re-inducted that reinduction is so we went there and by then the pakis had deducted we reinducted we again deinducted and that was virtually the end coming of 1983. now the int reports started coming in that uh pakistanis had picked up almost a thousand mountaineering equipment from Europe so the entire Europe was denuded of the mountaineering equipment now this mountaineering equipment is the same as that what the Mountaineers used for climbing Mount Everest so you get intelligence from raw probably on Military Intelligence that Europe May Sarah this thing has been picked up I think it was if I am not wrong it was Vikram sooth it was then as part of raw located in Srinagar who they have interacted with Jal Hoon was then the KO Commander to say that well the equipment so 2224 you had something on going on in Seattle Vikram suit chief of raw who was probably station officer okay he must have interacted", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-23", "text": "was probably station officer okay he must have interacted with John Hoon we have to and general who at that time Commander okay and all of this area used to come under him now you have 14 questions but those days it is to be one that is 15 core and those jurisdiction the entire area came in so when this was uh going on then he also went because if we were to launch because the preparation had already started so this General shipper and general Hoon say that we've got to do this now in this kind of an operation do you need um an okay from the political leadership to would the raksha mantri have been informed or is it need to know basis and they are not informed see at this point of time firstly I'm just a captain at that point right that's very important because I would not be preview to all what was going on at that point I am only preview because I am part as a mountaineer being part of it Associated and training people you know taking them up", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-24", "text": "it Associated and training people you know taking them up ensuring that they survive under such harsh conditions but yes uh Delhi was taken on board and that is where uh when you see Delhi gave a green signal that was Mrs Gandhi at that point of time that yes it could be done raksha mantri was Mr venkata now since Mrs Gandhi was had very good association with Mrs Gandhi primarily because of Sikkim okay okay when Sikkim became part of India Jal Hoon was then the advisor over there in to the and that is how Mrs Gandhi and general were clothed now when the okay came at this point type time Pakistan was wanting to launch operations according to them and what Musharraf says the Pro Commander wanted it the 1st of May because they failed to sustain themselves in 1983 on top of the glacier so he said let's do it in on the first of May much that Musharraf says that he was as part of the military operations ban and they had", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-25", "text": "as part of the military operations ban and they had suggested that it should have been March they wanted it much but unable to sustain their co-commander then General Khan said well it is better that we launched on the 1st of May and uh first of me being decided in January they had picked up this entire equipment from Europe so by Jan of 84 the equipment the mountain and Equipment has been picked up from Europe about a thousand sets by Pakistan obviously that alerted the Indian intelligence to buy so much of equipment had been picked up by Pakistan from there and that obviously then put us on this thing we didn't know what's going on in Pakistan because it's only the book which which Musharraf has written reviews because he was he himself said that I was in ammo and I was aware of what is going on at this point of time and then when Zion haq was being breathed so he said okay operation ababil to be launched on the 1st of May on the recommendations of the their", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-26", "text": "1st of May on the recommendations of the their Commander to say that which is very difficult so first May is what we will learn so much before uh operation make doth was put into play there was Operation by Pakistan to occupy siachen Glacier what we launched on first of May 1st 1584. that is the Pakistan part now for us we were told that we would launch on the 13th of April 1984 because uh then uh Brigadier Chandra was the sector Commander he said 13th is by Saki and it's a very good day of course you know eyebrows got everybody said uh sir 13th is supposed to be unlucky number 13. why do you want to launch it on the 13th is it is by Saki and it's one of the most holiest days and Pakistan also celebrates by saki we also celebrate the Saki and they couldn't have been a better New Year for us to launch our operation yeah because besaki is celebrated across both sides because on the India because", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-27", "text": "across both sides because on the India because it's a Harvest Festival absolutely and he realized that all of the equipment had been picked up and then uh I was ticked off in one of the presentations by Jal Hoon when John shebar asked me that can you launch the operations because you've been there in June July of 83 can you do so if we were to prepone it so I didn't know the date or anything like that so as a youngster and being asked by the Army obviously I couldn't have said no that was first and secondly assistance had gone there and had stayed there for so long I said by all means he said Remember the equipment is what you all wore in 1983 he said yes sir I told him positively same equipment we would be able to do so even during Summers it's it's a minus very it's you it's very cold it's minor did you and even today we see this lack of extreme winter clothing so what did you manage with in those", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-28", "text": "winter clothing so what did you manage with in those days for your polar bear Ibex and all these totally Indian equipment totally the same code Parker the same trouser with two inners inside and the shoes that yeah absolutely it was perfectly another I thought if I lived with all that clothing on top of their glasses I didn't know then obviously June July and April we got foreign because when we were launched in April and I must tell you the equipment of course didn't turn up till the 12th of April no no that was a big thing who had gone to buy the equipment and this is also coming from Europe yeah all of it was to come and it was down down is an equipment which is of feather and the down feathers are from birds which are there in Europe and probably relaxer birds make one coat because the feathers are so warm and that's what keeps you warm and the because of the down feather the jackets and the trousers are so light that you don't even", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-29", "text": "the trousers are so light that you don't even feel the weight of it so you know they had not reached and now Glacier and see for yourself what you had seen in 83 is there any change or you know do you see any marks of people walked over or something like that on the glacier so I was taken I was flown around the glacier I saw all of it absolutely Chopper by Chopper so absolutely no Footprints nothing whatsoever on the glacier it looked as uh pristine and pretty beautiful class as if nobody had touched it and everything flew over below flew over Seattle and all of it and got back so we were ready now clear weather absolutely perfect and I was also happy 13th April will launch and everything would happen 12th April at around five o'clock in the evening in me uh eight those days now where we call it me 17s those days the helicopter a different version of me it's they brought this equipment all right these are your intents yeah they're all", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-30", "text": "all right these are your intents yeah they're all it's still freezing cold everything is in 10 days only with my uh Team my company Commander was Major Sandhu uh VRC of 1971 war and we were another two youngsters to go to uh sort of establish Camp one two three and also be uh Reserve petrol based platoon to us with Captain paramvir yadav has one platoon Commander uh lifted in gusaini as another pluton commander and the third was myself under a company Commander R.S who unfortunately passed away some time back and he was the other uh company Commander for ciala and social he was the company Commander to occupy and we were to occupy I was happy and then I was brought back and to be ready to launch on the 13th so 12th in the evening at five o'clock I find this uh equipment has landed now this equipment was in cartons so many cartons trousers shoes and socks you know uh King that is those fire eater so many things it", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-31", "text": "King that is those fire eater so many things it goggles you know the um So based on this thing and the command is also not very tall so if it's time for the common regiment the boys were same and some are here also had to be given the same equipment yeah so that so the equipment that came and segregated we always did jackets and trousers are not much of a problem the inner was not a problem socks the shoes was a big problem because the shoes looked almost identical with its left foot or the right foot it was a special alternating shoes oh they all look alike so anyway we found ourselves wear wearing those and you know ready and we found this next day morning early morning we got up at four o'clock and all set and then we found our five o'clock or 5 30 Calpers hello about seven eight helicopters you know coming to the base camp being flown by the Air Force pilots and they all came to the base camp to take us onto the", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-32", "text": "came to the base camp to take us onto the glacier so we wore that equipment and ready with me was my operator mandal or radio operator so every helicopter could only take two people and because pilot co-pilot did two of us like that so and we were told radio silence nobody will open the radio sets less pakistanis get to know that there is some activity taking place so the total radius Island if you have a self-contained for five days of course you have to be self-contained for five days after five days by the time you would have established ourselves on the glacier then of course so keeping that in mind and we launched ourselves and the bundle with me and there were two more boys in the other helicopter Ramesh I remember very well and prakash not both these boys were with me in 1983 also so I knew you know we had that understanding with each other so Ramesh and prakash in the helicopter and I was in the lead helicopter and that helicopter was keeping a watch", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-33", "text": "lead helicopter and that helicopter was keeping a watch on us and we were to land and as soon as we had to land the pilots had already taken Muna Ricky before so perfectly fine I thought a land and I was sitting comfortably suddenly on that internal radio set he told me uh Sanjay we can't land here he said no no you have to jump and I'll jump from the helicopter but I'm not too sure uh how the snow condition why couldn't he land because not sure about it they were not so sure it was the hard surface or it was a helicopter if it has to land the uh there are lots of crevices crevices are deep no huge thing and this loose snow makes it look plain it's only when you land you suddenly realize that you have landed on top of a crevice and the whole helicopter will sink totally it'll go be go inside the crevice so the pilot he was aware of it because he had flown he said yeah I'm sorry I", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-34", "text": "he had flown he said yeah I'm sorry I can't uh that I said I wish you had told me when we can't come for a cure if you can't land he said Lane how I feel that we can't land and we are about three kilometers short of Bella founder I suggest you jump I said okay I'll jump but I said look I bought one small with me I'll first throw that foreign to see whether the surface is hard if the surface is hot if that doesn't sink then even when I jump I will also won't you're not talking about para jumping now you're just talking about jumping straight jump you have to open the jump from 10 15 10 15 yeah they come down below but uh you know you have to just you could also fall in the crevice if it is I told him I said yeah let's first throw this to that uh that's your Russian which you're coming with you yeah and once you open it we'll throw it down and we'll see if it doesn't", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-35", "text": "throw it down and we'll see if it doesn't sink it stays on the surface that means it's quite hard and you hover out I'll jump you say perfectly fine but I saw it was on top it hadn't sunk perfectly fine I said ready ready jump jump and when I jump obviously the uh my radio operator mandal he couldn't jump because he had the radio set that was on his lap so I will reduce it like it so I jumped and I saw the whole thing I walked around a bit the helicopter after I jumped took off and I saw that is okay I gave a thumbs up I said no problems you can land okay so the other helicopter was also seeing this helicopter so it landed with Mandel and the other two who were with me they also landed and then the subsequent sorties started coming in from the base camp to reach Bella founder it would take us about 35 odd minutes for the helicopter to fly in you know the next 40 to come in because the", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-36", "text": "you know the next 40 to come in because the same helicopters have to go back the refuel if required take another two passengers come back and land so all this would take out an hour or so so for that duration your load on top of the glacier the first fuel you're not pitching your tents you're not sorting nothing so far we are just there okay waiting for the entire platoon we were 30 of us the height and the temperature the height uh at that is almost about 18 000 plus you took off uh from 11 500 about 11 11 000 increased 18 and a half thousand the height that we were founded about 18 500 ciala is about nineteen or thousand and similarly is the Indra coal over there so and the temperature would be a temperature at that point would be at minus 20. so our temperature is a minus 20. it was clearly you know and it looked very clear lovely blue sky and absolutely white all over it was perfect I mean I could have asked for a better", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-37", "text": "perfect I mean I could have asked for a better uh condition how many are you right now four four of us that's it that's it the first the first okay me and my radio operator and precaution so having done that and then the subsequent sorties were not the others so the subsequent salty and in about I found in about half an hour or so a bundle complaint of uh okay I'm having headache now this headache is very common in high altitude we call it the uh you know it could well be a part of Apple high altitude pulmonary sudden use you know you get disoriented you don't feel comfortable so it's a complete of headache and I said now you better sit down do nothing whatsoever and uh we'll mark the helipad and the helipad will be marked because we have seen the all other helicopters you know exactly where to come so that he he was not able to talk I said don't worry the next Chopper that comes will take you back no he's the only", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-38", "text": "that comes will take you back no he's the only single radio operator with me and what to be evacuated even though he had trained so hard at house uh all had even down below and he was there during polar bear he was not part of polar bear one or two but he was part of the subsequent training and the training was very tough since we were all part of it we trained them very very hard okay but instead to sustain and you know training at kardumblr itself to get across this area from lay if you go is 18 380 feet that's the pass you have to cross by driving to be able to get onto partapur so all this training at high altitude there was nothing that was left to chance every viewer all but Monday yeah for sick at the last minute no subsequent people start Gathering major Sandhu was the company command he bought the entire team and we all settled out so we were 30 now left 29 because one the inducted within an hour of our Landing over", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-39", "text": "the inducted within an hour of our Landing over there by about 11 30 the weather don't absolutely bad unbelievable what I saw the day previous to what else when I saw while I landed to what I was now seeing Sudden Change it turned blessed us you know wind speeds of over 100 kilometers nothing visible we couldn't see anybody I said oh God what's all this aren't you happy you have this equipment that you're wearing those what generally thank God hindsight I would say that you're absolutely right yeah terrible absolutely now the same Shoppers were to go back and take and troops land at ciala that mean major bahoganya's team was to land at ciala on the same day the 13th of April 1984. now this kind of weather conditions obviously no Chopper and nobody would come even we couldn't see each other and don't even two meters I could see anybody no was that bad oh God I said now some would were part of with me in 1983 were familiar to", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-40", "text": "part of with me in 1983 were familiar to this kind of a weather so we could sort of understand but the rest of them were seeing it for the first time young boys all of us were 21 22 23 year old youngsters on top of the glacier you were probably called Sandhu was the oldest as a company Commander you must have been about 35 or something like that yeah we were all young 24 25 and 21 22 year old youngsters surprised if it me so I said yeah I told them I said no which up tense these imported tents had come Arctic 10 pop tents in which about two to three people could stand and say first let's get into it and then we'll see what is to be done let's uh hold ourselves on ground 13th of April extremely bad weather 14th of April extremely bad weather terrible weather only clearing the snow because you know the snow is also it's not so heavily about eight odd feet of snow in one night only so we should not so", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-41", "text": "snow in one night only so we should not so from inside the boys are just you know hitting that uh cover so that the snow doesn't rest on it and it sort of drifts off and one boy will come out clear the snow and again enter the food and water sir Paras that also must be turning into ice oh extremely difficult to eat extremely difficult to eat but we had those fire Kings you know those fire Kings were from Switzerland small little uh this thing which would keep the tent warm the two main Arctic ten would just have this area that you have for this table maximum three people can sustain themselves in these three just lie down nothing else you can do so you have your rucksack you are there and nobody else is there so that's all and then you're eating those shakar Paras and you're eating the chocolates that are there with you because there's no way you can cook because in this kind of weather will you cook and how will you cook is extremely", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-42", "text": "will you cook and how will you cook is extremely difficult that little Fire King was enough to make it warm so every time you would attempt to go out to Bella founder people like we would sink up to waste deep snow well not able to walk even 100 yards and 200 times we will be back now 15th around 15th when uh we are attempting to go I heard come back come back shouting come back I said what happened but we found that Ramesh was no more died the in the night because of apple and froth in his mouth and uh poor thing you know I felt very bad because he was a very good buddy of mine and had been with me in 83 Etc so now the question aroused we call back halfway if we were to below we got back and now major Sanju said now what do we do here I said we have no option today is only the third day though we were told to have radio silence for five days and we are self-contained for five", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-43", "text": "for five days and we are self-contained for five days in one tenth there are three of us only the two officers are there in one ten otherwise the men are almost three in one ten and I said now we can't leave him inside the tent and the two boys to sleep with him it may you know inconvenient at the same time we can't leave him outside just because he's no more you can't leave him outside also that's the respect for the fallen soldier if it's snowing I said it's snowing so heavily will not be able to find out because you will not know where it is it's extremely difficult to find out I said so let's open the radio set and let's inform Ed and one boy no more so sure enough you know because of this bad weather radio silence there's enough kind of uh you know culture happening at the sector headquarters at the Army Headquarters that this TiVo 30 seems to be basic they are not they told you five days yeah five days but", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-44", "text": "not they told you five days yeah five days but but did tell us that look boy don't open the radio set for five days because and sure enough thank God these instructions were there because had those instructions not been there the pakistanis would have also because yeah they had planned for first of May so obviously anybody is wanting to come on top of the glacier on the first terminals although would already be sitting as kardu and kapalu maybe a fortnight before and 10 days before another they just can't launch and Musharraf himself said that it takes Indian seven days to occupy siachen Glacier it takes us one day because their road head was absolutely just the base of the sultural ridge line and they just had to walk up to occupy the glacier so that they were they could have got to the sultural region much faster than what it was for us so he said reduce it colonization sorry we have no option of character again it is better that we inform otherwise uh so we informed and uh", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-45", "text": "that we inform otherwise uh so we informed and uh you know by that cleared up and uh very nice of JAL Hoon he flew in in the helicopter and it dropped the national flag from the top onto us and a small little you know little bag there is a with the national flag in it and he said he told him by all you know indicating to him by a signal that this is what it is and he didn't lag but then he took off he knew that we could send a chopper to evacuate and take back remesh from there so Ramesh obviously by then the body had become extremely stiff how do you mentally deal with at that point of time you uh don't have anything you know you know that poor thing is no more and um but you don't let emotions come into play we have of course that you do feel bad that your body is no more Ramesh could have been the first casualty of mandal was the first one who didn't die but was", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-46", "text": "was the first one who didn't die but was evacuated because of HAPO and he was the first casualty of uh of operation on operation make tooth on top and his name is there in the war memorial this at India Gate then I went there I did see the name of last night Ramesh he was subsequently being uh you know given kirti chakra posthumas I'll tell you later how when I met him there and when this was he was evacuated and then we moved towards Bella found can you imagine I'm on top of beloved online just about to reach Bella founder which is about 18 500 feet so putting in context uh you're talking about uh we are talking about the first casualty of siachen Ramesh was that and uh now uh today when officers go or Javan school or even as journalists when we go we know how much acclimatization we have to do or for stage wise acclimatization 14 days seven days super high altitude and all those things now when you", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-47", "text": "super high altitude and all those things now when you people went in there were no scientific studies on effect of high altitude on what it could affects it could have on a human body how you should behave what you should do or was there some kind of basic study see we have enough inputs because if you recollect 1962 and since 62 also was fought in Eastern ladakh and uh decorated with so we all the induction into to high altitude is very very scientific as you rightly said acclimatization is a must so you have your seven days acclimatization 10 days acclimatization 14 days acclimatization depending upon the heights that you have to go in all this training that we are supposed to be doing because you can't there is a saying no you can't be a gamma in the land of llama so that's everything another one which I've heard you say uh you know that is the uh I always call it as the mantra for mountaineering you know roti that means you must have a meal in", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-48", "text": "know roti that means you must have a meal in your stomach you must have something to hold so that you are not swept up by the wind and this kind of a weather condition or don't step into a crevice by mistake because and child shorty because you should not get breathless because if your breathing is synchronized with your stepping then it's a great success but generally most casualties occur because you don't receive to realize it you know you're young and you feel all right it doesn't happen so they say don't be a gamma in the land of Allah so it's all these sayings and all have a lot of meaning behind it so we all undergo what we rightly said so if you all undergo proper acclimatization every entire study is there a whole lot of it there's no question even those days absolutely 100 and you but what happens you know seeing is believing it's only when you experience it first hand when you see that wind blowing at over 100 kilometers", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-49", "text": "you see that wind blowing at over 100 kilometers an hour on your face and when you only find yourself covered with snow all over and there's nothing but hitting you your hands aren't moving in nothing is you know then you realize all that studies are now coming to you being told because you own an experience when you are experiencing all of it you know you we told 10 times over that don't worry in an avalanche you can you know if an avalanche comes just see to yourself dig down and hold and seal and you know our way it is don't panic don't do the very easier said than done and you're in the crevice don't panic in the crevice you've gone 40 feet down Panic you don't know what's happening to you and everybody is trying to motivate you but you are losing your so it's easier said than done you know only a man who is experiencing you find so many of your friends have lost legs so many of them have lost limbs you", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-50", "text": "lost legs so many of them have lost limbs you know insomnia losing their health there's so many things that are happening so the man who experiences it he alone knows where the there are no leather shoe pinches sure no it's easier said so in this kind of what you said harming acclimatize and all of it we finished with 13th we finished with 14th and with 15. so before we reach 15 you talked about General Hoon giving you this bag yeah national flag I had to hoist it at Bellefonte I'll tell you very interesting story of this national flag also so that we hoisted and when we were on 15th you've hosted on on 16th 16th you've reached at the national flag okay so when we were hoisting the national flag over there just about reaching bilaf online I find a helicopter coming from the Pakistani Direction now that helicopter well like we have cheetahs they have llamas that aircraft is similar to what we had the Llama American problem yeah the", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-51", "text": "to what we had the Llama American problem yeah the small little chopper with a pilot and a co-pilot and two passengers is right right in front now obviously the helicopters have a limit to which you can fly you know you can fly maximum nineteen thousand twenty thousand feet after that it won't fly so I am as it is I'm standing at 18 500 so high hour really will be going he can't go to his extreme so he was right in front and so I saw the their Pilot's eye and my eye you know both are seeing each other now he saw that these integers are already on top of Bill of all they took a U-turn and went back so now we must have gone and told the look we were wanting to preempt India the Indians have already preempted us they're already sitting on top of Belafonte so this wasn't a satellite imagery or whatever there were no nothing like that he himself now how did he come that is also equally uh moment", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-52", "text": "how did he come that is also equally uh moment Ramesh passed away we had to open the radio set the moment we opened the radio set obviously they picked up the radio signals so when they picked up the radio signals these Indians are already somewhere here so he must have been sent to go and see the only way to induct enthusiasm from The Saltwater reliable of online so when he was wanting to cross Bell off only since you're already there now the next day the 17th of April when platoon which was to be inducted on top of siala because of the clear weather now they inducted and occupied ciala so the next day the same helicopters which had brought us to belafontla but could not take them to siala on the 13th and the 14th and the 15th and subsequently so they took now this platoon of major bhagana and landed at ciala and they occupied seala so operation make dude actually comes into fruition by between 13th and 16th 13th and say", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-53", "text": "by between 13th and 16th 13th and say 17th of April of April everybody now is occupied 1984. and at the same time simultaneously despite the bad weather we were establishing the camps along the glacier Camp one Camp two camp three Camp four Camp five Camp six so if you have to walk all these camps each campaign one day walk that's more than even Mount Everest Mount Everest required three Camp one Camp two and and the peak peek a scam 3 is assault straight assault on the uh Mount Everest one two three four five six and then again if you were to go on the Lola phone Glacier you have to go on the to go to Seattle there's a long you know stretch you know you have to walk establish one base camp and then walk up to Belafonte so all this that was happening now we had rightly so we had preempted the Pakistani the pakistani's initial of course they had wanted it to occupy in March but their core Commander is what Musharraf", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-54", "text": "March but their core Commander is what Musharraf says suggested to be occupied and on the 1st of May we occupied the siachen glacier on the 13th of April 1984. so that is how we found that all of this got occupied now talking about what you just referred to the national flag of uh so since you know dropped the national flag for us for putting out on the Bella founder we had put that flag over there then subsequently Mrs Gandhi as a prime minister had to be told that ciachen had been occupied and she wanted to come and see for herself also okay what is it like so as luck would have it the day she was to fly it was total white out May or something like that you know and uh not even yeah something May June around that time and uh so when she was flying around no much later because 23rd of June we had passed an attack of the Pakistani on the glacier and his same time when what was going on in this thing", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-55", "text": "same time when what was going on in this thing simultaneously Punjab also had the problems now Operation Blue Star in 84. yes and here Pakistan is launched an attack on the siachen on the 23rd of June 1984. and before that on the 27th of April the first firing took place around because we had occupied the passes the pakistanis were attempting and how I realized that now it's become a battlefield now not till the 27th and the first day now I saw a crew you know a white group I said I remember having seen a white crow in 1983 also once and I see another Crow you know I said if there's a crow that means this Crow is following somebody food he's following somebody he couldn't have seen our food because he's coming from the park side and this Crow is following somebody and sure enough the pakis were right in front of us at a place called Ali branza on the Lola phone on the Bella found Glacier we are on the Lola Fawn Glacier", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-56", "text": "Glacier we are on the Lola Fawn Glacier terminates at Bella fondla and the Bill of on Glacier runs along Ali branza on their side and they were sitting there with a lot of crops and everybody all seated and that's the first firing took place on the 27th of April but you're at a height they are low oh much lower okay they must have been at about 16. we must have been so strategically or in a better position see mountains whoever is occupying Heights is dominating and anybody who occupies Heights dominance is extremely difficult to dislodge him he can only be dislodged if he is found sleeping or is complexion otherwise very difficult to dislodge now when this had happened this national flag and when Mrs Gandhi subsequently was uh flown in and shared a whiteout conditions she didn't see anything he saw a national flag being flown in because of the saffron color and the green that was visible to her from this she said she couldn't see", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-57", "text": "visible to her from this she said she couldn't see anybody she said you were saying that there are troops over here I don't see anybody neither do I see anybody living over here and how could anybody be living in such condition but she saw some flag and she said I can spot a flag who's there so that's a post at belafontla and that is where we are he said excellent and whatever this he must have asked questions to the uh co-commander or the Army Commander was flying with her and everything ended the next day but she couldn't land no she could so that is why the first prime minister to land in siachen was Dr morning nobody came to see achen all those years even Mrs Gandhi's attempt was in June July again bad by the rule so no weather can turn bad I told you 13th April in the morning when we land perfectly clean Blue Sky fantastic and within us everything turned topsy-turvy so you can't and then she came it was obviously", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-58", "text": "you can't and then she came it was obviously if the prime minister is being flown in the weather clearance did you know that she is flying nobody would nobody would nobody would have ruled it's only when you venture into the glacier that you realize no but did you know that the Prime Minister would like no he didn't know and sir when you talk about 27th first firing taking place by that time what was your uh how many of us were there on the see we were 13 any case and then subsequently we were built at all 50 50. we became 50 because others came you know there were lots of people uh as key Troopers came in so you're a young man at that stage do you realize the significance or do you just think it's another believe me you know today when I look back I feel the people after you are asking me after 39 years at that point of time nothing we were enjoying every bit of it we were very lucky we thought that we were", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-59", "text": "it we were very lucky we thought that we were trained and that we are living and surviving and every day was fantastic day and eating chocolates if you could and uh you know it was good time badam Christmas we're all youngsters and everybody was but by then every day about three four people would be hit by chill billing or frostbite insomnia unable to a severe headache not able to eat not snow blindness can't see so it was terrible every now and then these people despite being trained they would become casualties because most of the casualties on the glacier are because of weather not more so because of firing so this was uh the 27th and Mrs I'll tell you then the battle so when Mrs Gandhi saw all this and uh was the overall Task Force Commander my force was called the zorawar fossil so we were one thing and the Pakistani is they used to call themselves the Brazil Force Brazil so not busy and uh the Brazil pass there they call this", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-60", "text": "busy and uh the Brazil pass there they call this Aboriginal phosphere of course is I got a call from he he also supporting his normal pasta as a brigadier he was also Mount Everest climber and you know excellent climbers so he told me Sanjay come down no you're a very nice person am I supposed to come down it says have had to go back again so he said that I don't know it takes Camp you have to first come to petrol base then cam 3 Camp 2 campaign then I come to the base camp these four five days of walking I have to do and moment I reach base camp will again say Sanjay upper charger so again I have to walk back I said don't joke with me like this you know so and the conversation ended he thought probably since he was a colonel I was India captain and over there a little informal so next year again he said have you started walking back I said no I am still there is it you better come down fast I said", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-61", "text": "there is it you better come down fast I said sir how am I to come down you harness until you give me a helicopter left I don't mind coming down and you can again induct me uh so I said no no you come down uh you have to go to Europe I told your message sorry why because it would it was improbable for a young you know I said officer what uh I said you know try to keep me happy amused or something like that he said and I forgot about it again he called me in the afternoon have you started I said started I said sir you're joking me you made me laugh foreign I should be here only he said you come down and he said you have to go to Europe Mrs Gandhi has decided to send you to Europe to five countries you have to go as soon as I got down I was sent for my Visa and passport and everything I went to France I went to Germany I went to Switzerland I went to Italy and I went", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-62", "text": "went to Switzerland I went to Italy and I went to Austria and uh Mrs Gandhi saw this national flag and she said who it is so they said this youngster is there crypto okay so I went to Europe as part of our team which was to buy equipment they said since he is now aware of the equipment that has come from Europe he can also suggest certain ways to see that what more modifications are required and I had my first trip abroad and courtesy did you go back south then to the mountains no I didn't go back because by then by 90 days because I was inducted in April and you know generally on top of uh we send people for nine so when you were there uh you could look in into the shakskum valley yeah now the shakscum valley is not towards Bella foundler for sucks come Valley I saw it later I was again posted there is Chief of Staff of 14 Corps and then that time I flew over Indira Cole so when you're", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-63", "text": "time I flew over Indira Cole so when you're flying on top of Indra you can see the shaks come Valley and I could see the green grass imagine I was flying on top and I saw the shakscum valley which had been seeded by Pakistan to China in 63 which is adjoining the siachen glacier and in the valley is the kunjara pass through which comes the karakoram highway which now has this China Pakistan economic Corridor which connects it to guada and comes from kashgar from kashgar comes down to kunjara pass goes along baltistan runs along goes as part of karakoram Highway then becomes China Pakistan economic Corridor and then joined the gwada that part of India where Indians can't go yeah that Valley yeah that the pakistanis had to seat to China because to settle the boundary dispute in a park China has a boundary land boundary with 14 countries and only two countries they have not settled the boundary dispute with India and Bhutan these are the only", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-64", "text": "dispute with India and Bhutan these are the only two countries with all other uh countries which they have a border with they have settled the boundary dispute and give or take mostly take never give so pakistanis lost shaks come Valley and settle the boundary dispute with China and karakoram passed with which we refer to from India 9842 had that succeeded it would have had Pakistan China and India at that rise up so one question I had for you that you know I was reading about in one of your interviews you said that you did your early schooling in Karachi and then you left Karachi and came to India and joined uh balbhati then Air Force Center school and then sriram College of Commerce so how come you were in Karachi see my dad was posted in the high commission over there and during the 62 War we were there in Karachi the India China was all of it but by 65 we are back in uh India and that was a time for the first time in the Indian uh High commission", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-65", "text": "for the first time in the Indian uh High commission a certain number of people were told to leave Pakistan in 96 hours or was it a 72 or something like that and uh similar number of men who have ever told to leave Pakistan similar number of men from India also what I've been told because that's a very reciprocal thing but that was for the first time I had memories of the aircraft coming from uh India you know bringing us back to Delhi so by initial schooling uh was in Karachi we were staying in on Clifton Road what is now where you find it is something like what we call lithium Delhi so Clifton Road in Karachi is like that and we were I was studying in a school called Wendy's School the britos lived I think yeah everybody the top notch of Pakistan are on Clifton Road including are you watching he also stays on cliff guarded heavily by the park Army for him but uh that's the way and I studied in Wendy's school which", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-66", "text": "way and I studied in Wendy's school which was not very far and uh why did India Pakistan do this because the war was with China the India Pakistan okay thought that it is an opportune time because India has lost to China and that nothing better and he used to think that used to call Indian topiwalas and you'd be surprised pattern tanks your Sable Jets latest of artillery equipment all that started coming to Pakistan from United States and all of it was being assembled you would come in shipment to Karachi this is preparation for the first one the second one 1465. it is just that you can have equipment but to use it in a manner like a professional it takes a lot of time but you were just a child at that time and your parents told you what that we're going back to India yeah going back to India and while going it was fantastic you know I have I think we went in a ship while going we went in a ship Karachi to Mumbai Mumbai to Karachi and", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-67", "text": "ship Karachi to Mumbai Mumbai to Karachi and took quite a I think may have taken over four or five days it was fantastic as children were enjoying on the ship Khana Pina Masti while coming also it was damn good whether in herosters who came with a tray with a lot of chocolates I still remember I I asked how many can I take this Air India probably right yeah take as many as you want so it was free for all thereafter yeah so Karachi was the consulate uh out there right no no we had an embassy I Commission in Karachi subsequently that Islamabad as a capital came up that now you have Karachi virtually as a counselor but those days it was uh and I think the Ambassador was not the present the old it's called G patasati it was also India foreign you know I have memories of his in the high commission Jana picture they would have a big screen and screening movies for us Bismillah coming and playing Chennai all these actors actresses coming", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-68", "text": "coming and playing Chennai all these actors actresses coming there you know entertaining us because there was a lot of human contact which is going on in the 60s yeah nothing in fact what are you did in 65 was quite a stub in the back because Ayub Khan is not he was very good friends and uh well but he thought he always thought he you know even if you read kasuri's book on uh neither a hawk nor a DA that also he says that these two call Indians baniya he mentioned the word baniya so he chose to be a call for all Hindus Banias so that is the way uh he said but it was accepted nobody minded it it was well accepted and you know the Indians would call them musla it's just kosuri himself those were not considered pejorative terms in those days today you don't say that but actually if you listen in uh to some of the commentary that comes in from Pakistan they still say that Hindu you know in fact uh but together", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-69", "text": "that Hindu you know in fact uh but together Jane dixit's book also says that that you know when he went visiting to a Pakistani home in Karachi uh they turn around and they the kid turns around you know because kind of uh this thing in Pakistan I think came a little later because I have distinct memories of the books that were there in Pakistan at that time it didn't have that kind of a hated then as much now that I think yeah yeah I think it is leading India with a thousand cars that radicalization that you know kind of Islamic Republic of Pakistan and all that kind of a thing and the hatred for the Indians develop now and now you find that the education system in Pakistan is to absolutely hate hate and hate so I've met many Foreign Service officers who you know served in Karachi served in Islamabad and they always have stories to tell about how the Aisa used to go you know follow them around and all that do you have any memories at that", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-70", "text": "and all that do you have any memories at that time you know in the 60s yeah I do have uh what my father told me then you know they would meet and interact not with the isi but with people in the cricket stadium in the football stadium you know go meet each other there and exchange information with not the isi about isi they would have somebody telling you basically 100 there's no question I still remember I have memories of that Chana churam you would bring it in the newspaper yeah or in that steel a steel level Iron Cow but you know of course they would be coming and feeding and very nice you can't mistake you know because I remember someone in Islam about me and you know I I a journalist and I we were we were there we would cover the events during the day so weird people is to go to Jenna super which is one of their markets to shop around and they would be this one man who would come so the second day when we were going we", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-71", "text": "come so the second day when we were going we were we two more journalists were there and this man was still standing there so we just turned to him and said so he says the guy actually came with us because they didn't have their tail didn't thought so he came and sat in our car and he came with us this is unfortunate that Pakistan has turned the weight has done I have such lovely memories I remember as a child I would be talking in Marathi my mother tongue with my father and uh asked him for something yeah I want this or I want that you better buy this for me and that and uh you would say okay let's go that chap who's selling would speak in Marathi back sometimes telling my dad that your son is asking for it in marathi's talking why don't you give it to him my father said how do you know Marathi he says I've lived my life in Mumbai I've shifted to karachino so they could speak Marathi so fluently that it", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-72", "text": "so they could speak Marathi so fluently that it would shock us so there is nothing that you could do in good thinking if you are talking in code but I'm talking with my father in Marathi and my father is talking to me Marathi nobody understands no he is understanding everything because he's born and brought up in Mumbai interesting you know it is unfortunate I would even look back and say unfortunate that as a nation had Pakistan not turned radical the way they have turned radical and had they not been instigated and again that instigation comes from China is the Chinese instigated Pakistan when the Sharks come Valley was being handed over it is Pakistan was being advised by China that look you two people look alike you talk the same language why don't you do what we have done in 62 to them and that is what prompted Ayub Khan to do what he did in Kashmir so the all this instigation because uh somehow the Chinese wouldn't like India because of British imperialism and", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-73", "text": "wouldn't like India because of British imperialism and they thought that we were all talking English and you know we are not what we are supposed to be and this thing so much so that when Pandit nehru was visiting China for the first time he was being briefed that the word of command in the army or English standardize attention and it was turned to savdhan and vishram because the Chinese may not at a point of time thinking British foreign he's extremely upset he said what is King George 5 doing over there but when Queen Elizabeth came in 62 uh 61 or something like she was thrilled that her grandfather of others this thing is you know they're in the canopy and in 68 Mrs Gandhi had to remove King George under pressure and it has taken us how many years over there just see the indianization and the uh you know that love for our own culture love for our own history understanding it takes many years and many years for people to keep lying also not telling you the truth", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-74", "text": "people to keep lying also not telling you the truth of what has happened as I told you 10 orange used to be staying there and how he was listening and Jenna was all set to celebrate Eid in Srinagar when The Invasion took place he was told very clearly yeah up Shallow you stage forward you will celebrate Eid in Srinagar 27th of October we have signed the instrument of accession that we will take that but third of November when the uh Srinagar Airfield yeah it is you had it not you know the defense uh how else could we have gone across to Srinagar there was no uh we have to cross over and it was snowing it was it's November you have to go back to think yeah November and you can't cross the only way you could go to Srinagar was by air and had we not got that Airfield we would have lost we'd have lost Sri Lanka if not for the way the troops were being inducted all my everybody was inducted by", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-75", "text": "being inducted all my everybody was inducted by air imagine at that point of time all aircrafts in India wherever they were very Jam air Indian airlines that was all made available to just transporting troops to Chicago yeah that is how we could protect other things we have lost yeah and all planned orchestrated for Pakistan by the British in this aurangzebling and by the British and Orkin lake is the commander-in-chief and you have a British uh chief and you have India also but the divide and rule until recently we had this Auckland Lake Seneca ramgaret Delhi Delhi station and uh you'll you'll be surprised Orkin Lake was under so much of pressure walking Lake's wife ran away with the air marshal and the question she went with air marshall this is getting very interesting because he she went with the UK's Air Marshal Orkin Lake was deeply hurt his wife had left him and now married the air marshal offer you mount button knowing fully well this has happened he sent the Air Force Chief", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-76", "text": "this has happened he sent the Air Force Chief duck to UK and Orkin Lake unable to withstand finally left India in December of 47 and this is the history why the Air Force teams houses away from the rajaji Markley yeah there's trouble otherwise you know whose house is next to this thing the UK High commissioner's house is joined the chief of army stuff yeah I always wondered why that happened because at that time you know they wanted to retain obviously they wanted to see the South block and the team Murthy and everything by being there and also there is still there and everybody ignores it but now it's come the British High commissioner's house is again in the Limelight these days but well that's another story there's a lot that in history which we need maybe all uh nothing very uh this thing but it affects a human mind so is somebody who's commander-in-chief would he not know what the pakistanis are doing would you not know what the Indians are doing would he not alert the Indians", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-77", "text": "Indians are doing would he not alert the Indians look the pakistanis are doing like this the Raiders are going to come and are going to attack would they not know that muzaffarabad is going to fall so soon and that they have already got about five to ten thousand people uh who are afraidis and all these people from the uh the Raiders from baluchistan and all over to invade India answer in today's context would the britishers not know that the khalistanis are coming to create why do you think thank God why do you think the government of India removed that those barriers from their uh this thing residences over here just to tell them it's a messaging that if we are protecting you we expect a similar kind of reciprocal protection of our missions abroad if you don't protect our missions abroad then I'm sorry we will also have to remove this barrier we will protect you so General Brad I had on the podcast uh and he was attacked in London by khalistani absolutely", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-78", "text": "he was attacked in London by khalistani absolutely he survived in his General vaidyas after General Valdez death it was he says I'm like I don't know when I'm going to die because I know for certain they will kill me when is the matter he said this on air when I interviewed him because he was and he till today so he opened the phone and showed me he still gets uh death uh threats from the khalistanis because he doesn't stay here he stays in Mumbai yes but he stays in protection still which is absolutely which is so hard and after we lost General vaidya I think it was like he was the chief in 1984. yeah blue star I remember when I went to for my investigator of Shara chakra he was the chief so so good memories but then it's just too bad you know these kind of things yeah let's get back to uh operation this did not sit well with the pakistanis they kept fighting and there was 1987 was this major", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-79", "text": "kept fighting and there was 1987 was this major assault when he was himself their uh SSG and uh as a brigadier by then he had been promoted to Brigadier and he had taken over he lost attacks one after the other and he failed in all the attacks and that's where bana earned his param vir chakra that's where you found a lot of mahavi chakras and V chakras being given subsequently uh for these battles over there and it was around the same time 23rd of June 84 the pakis lost attack again 23rd of June 1987 the party is launched the 23rd June by law is supposedly the longest day so you have uh you know clear day almost till about 8 30 40 to 9 at night you can see great distance so you have the longest day is the 23rd of June and that is the time twice the party is attempted and that is where at all times Park is lost and to create loss of this and that is where you found Benazir uh you", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-80", "text": "and that is where you found Benazir uh you know trying to tell Pakistani army Chief and the rest of them yes in 1989 I think it was when she stormed in supposedly into GHQ and she told uh and you can't dislodge any unnecessarily time to throw weight over us you can't even dislodge the Indians these kind of sharp things that she said to General Musharraf he didn't forget it she paid for it she paid with her life her father also humiliated and because he humiliated and uh foreign did not forget that humiliation and he lost his life and similarly Musharraf also did not suffer that humiliation by whatever Benazir had done and though of course it can't still be proved but the fingers are pointing towards musharra that she lost her life too yeah that when when he when she said to him that was a direct insult to the Pakistani armed forces and he's trying to instigate them that you people are unnecessarily being harsh on the pakistanis but when", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-81", "text": "unnecessarily being harsh on the pakistanis but when it comes to fighting with the Indians you are losing everywhere and look what's happening to unciation since 84 you're not able to do anything so this kind of a thing by the politicians in Pakistan have not been taken well by their armed forces and they have suffered and sir we were talking you were saying 27th of April the first attack first uh yes the first firing firing the Pakistan and uh 23rd June 1984 was the first attack by you know something you've taken me back uh those days on the uh 26th of June you know they fired with their mortars on top of Belafonte and obviously when they fired the top of Belafonte under 20 uh 22nd of June 22nd of June that fired on top of this thing and I said okay fine if they're fired I knew something is a mess so I told my boys I said please dig your trenches digging trenches was only clearing the snow everything is all snow", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-82", "text": "was only clearing the snow everything is all snow there and one of my boy was called jalandria because uh even though kumoni he had spent a lot of time in Punjab in jalandha so we used to call him came and told me you know in the morning we would all be occupying our trenches at about 4 30 around first night Casper I'll clear the trench and you will see it clear but forget about today I'm not going to clear it but I'm tired so I said you have to do your job here he said sir you know he prevailed upon me by his talk and I said okay in the morning you do it so that was on the 22nd of June 23rd June there was a boy called chanchal and he was on the front edge of belafonda and suddenly a boy came to me and he told in the morning at about four o'clock uh sir dushman dushman I had uh passed orders to the boys who were patrolling on top of Belafonte that", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-83", "text": "boys who were patrolling on top of Belafonte that every wanna you must come and say giant to me or Ram to me or whatever are your greetings because now the boys will mix some boys greeted ram ram like in the Kumar regiment we greet each other Ram Ram Sam greeted Jehan you know some greeted because there were Sikh troops with me on there so I said whatever beer is comfortable to you and getting but you must greet me everyone and I must reply I must reply or I must say whatever I have to say I will reply if I don't please see that I am dead or alive because possibly I may be dead and you may not know so so every time they would come after Vana and this was going on for months on so they would come they say ram ram sahab Jain Saab you know Satya Kasa like that so when he came at four o'clock dushman absolutely white so movement on the glacier early hours of the morning could be spotted and he", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-84", "text": "hours of the morning could be spotted and he said I said who told you he said he had gone to clean he was a Sentry he was Sentry over there so he saw at night he could not spot it but probably at the cover of night they came as close as they could and now they had to climb the the to come on top of Belafonte now because on the 22nd of June they had fired with their mortars on top of her I fired my mortars now since I had fired my mortars in the 22nd the blade this plate of the malta had sunk and had you know formed and by morning the it was the snow becomes ice absolutely like you know it's very difficult so it had to suck now I find that Sherlock the first shot hit chanchal on his head and chanchal was normal no obviously there because there he saw that there is movement that has taken place on the post and that this post is alert now the attack is a short failure", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-85", "text": "post is alert now the attack is a short failure because either they could have only assaulted us attacked us if you were sleeping so there's no way these people are all alert they have already occupied position and the firing had started so now chanchal that is the only casualty I had on the glacier two more had been wounded one got shot on the leg and yet another was shot in the arm and all of us and then we repulsed that attack and a few about a dozen plus the pakistanis they had wounded and they attacked existing that was on the 23rd of June 1984 that the attack was repulsed and after that subsequently they kept attacking we had de-inducted and then subsequently the other they keep trying to come up the cliff they're wanting to come and occupy because occupation or Bella fondla was very important for them but they during this interim period they had occupied a height which was overlooking yeah so they used to call it the uh a little difficult that made", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-86", "text": "to call it the uh a little difficult that made our helicopters come for Logistics Supply difficult because no he was on a height of height and that they got this Lord by bana and his party of Jacqueline and it is that dislodging of the pakistanis from there and subsequently the post being named banatop and he having earned a param vir chakra is great because to be able to fight at that height to be able to beat that in a Pakistani attack I can't understand because I did that on the 23rd of June 84 and similar action in a more difficult terrain a much more higher height and being able to dis you know discreetly be able to sneak in so close to them and kill them I think it was wonderful so bana top is also part of operation make dude yeah I thought the operation people started getting to know because a lot of casualties started coming in and most casualties were very casualties not more of firing the first was the casualty was", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-87", "text": "more of firing the first was the casualty was of course Ramesh and the first firing casualty was and before this and around May uh what you had a question to that there's Bill uponla and ciala and there's a place called we had lost 19 men in another lunch we had lost one officer and 18 other ranks of 19 Kuma in an avalanche at gyongla so it was terrible because we were losing men to weather and we were losing men to firing and each one of us at that point of time and you find the conditions are extremely extremely difficult difficult primarily because of the sub zero which goes very low minus 50 when the wind chill factor which is there plus no water because at night everything will freeze water will only be there so once stuff is virtually perpetually on in a tent at least water pineappani pina colada then even though you have chocolates you have the works you have all the dry fruits around in your tent you can't eat this is no", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-88", "text": "around in your tent you can't eat this is no appetite everything turns hard egg will turn Like a Stone in a rock you can hit each other and probably you'll get hurt the same age you made it so it is very very difficult but then by then what you are asking a lot of research went and and the drdo and the rest of them started making food which was which would be eaten immediately like chapatis chapatis would come uh in a nice pack thing and all that we need to do is just put in hot water and we put the chapati in hot water take it out cut that thing and you to eat chapatis you could eat pulao you could eat McDonald's yeah then everything was pre-cooked everything that came was pre-cooked all that yesterday we put was in hot water and in that boiling water it was that's with the Satchel all this came from their lab in Mysore and myself all of it you find that uh you know the uh children today we have all these", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-89", "text": "you know the uh children today we have all these varying diapers these diapers is nothing but when people were sent to moon and when you have to use this long time those men the astronauts have to wear something to sustain themselves so we find children today wearing diapers diapers nothing but from this Mission which is going to Moon you find that and and the food which is prepared for siachen soldiers is now going to go on the gaganyan yeah same same lab is saying that and the same food helps today so all these kind of foods which is available on the market so one question I have to ask you which we were mentioning that it seems a little odd that you know Indira Gandhi signs off on operation make duth in April she does blue stuff are in May and she's dead by November can you join the dots or wow again if you see what channel is that keep Punjab burning and they could link up with China the aim was not that they are not linked up because", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-90", "text": "aim was not that they are not linked up because they had given uh hunza and they had given rally to uh China but they wanted that link up at which was accepted as a border between India and China now the pakis were also because of the Hudson's line the Hudson did not draw I don't think they would have drawn the line keeping all this in view but that have drawn it primarily for you know identification or aircraft more that ADI is that what they call it so the to ensure that the aircraft pilot knows that is now flying into another country because the courts change everything changes so they know so it is with that intention that the pakis were looking and now you suddenly find that as 76 kilometer wedge between uh China and Pakistan is India sitting on CIA Glacier the then now Chinese have ensured that the pakis can do no mischievancing because the yoga problems which is completely Muslims over there at this point of time they fear that the pakistanis might do", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-91", "text": "of time they fear that the pakistanis might do a Mischief they don't trust Pakistan much that they may say the Friendship is deeper than the ocean sweeter than the honey all that is perfectly fine but they don't trust us and that is the reason why you find that because of the cpec and the karakora highway which Musharraf mentions it as the eighth wonder of the world with the Chinese were building and constructing which suffered there was a huge damage and a huge earthquake took place in that area and because of which the karakoram highway had completely been washed away and now you realize that the karakoram highway the Chinese are there now you find in the park occupied Kashmir the Chinese are sitting there sitting because in the gap of wanting to construct the cpec wanting to you know repair the karakaram highway it is not with that intention that is one the second is to ensure that this access the buffer that the parties don't send terrorists to think", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-92", "text": "buffer that the parties don't send terrorists to think Young because that's the only way that is connected to them so Chinese are also very apprehensive because Chinese were themselves surprised when they found some from Yuga Province part of Isis so there's a whole lot of things happening around here you find that the kalistan movement being supported by isi from Pakistan it even now being supported Uhaul haq wanting to say that we will bleed India with a Thousand Cuts so that is still all you find in 84 all this happening you find that the Soviets are in Afghanistan the Americans wanting to throw the Soviets and Pakistan is helping America with mujahideen's 84. everything so you find geopolitics absolutely and there's a cyclical thing to it you know sir I'm going to come to in 2000 and the lessons learned from operation make dude though it's still on as you were saying but still the the start of the operation and what we have learned from that you know in", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-93", "text": "and what we have learned from that you know in 2005 Dr Manmohan Singh said let's make siachen a peace mountain and I quote he says nobody fears any threat 2005 he says nobody fears any threat there is no scope for conflict and this place becomes an example of peaceful environment that's what he had said now how long will we allow these conditions to Prevail in siachen because of the number of men we were losing both sides were losing and he said now the time has come for us to make efforts to convert this battlefield into a peace mountain and he added talks for going on with Pakistan in this regard of course there was no there's no information about where the talks were leading who was conducting the talks it was just said like this in hindsight now I mean so many years have passed do you think it was it was right could it ever have been turned into a peace mountain in courts definitely no big no for a reason you can't trust Pakistan firstly and", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-94", "text": "for a reason you can't trust Pakistan firstly and secondly you're occupying Heights why would you want to lose Heights in mountains it's all question of heights sham Saran has mentioned a part of it in his book The Foreign Secretary of India he has mentioned somewhere to say that the Army was also on the board and you know the prime ministers this thing and that thing I don't think the uh at any point of time he would know more because he was the foreign secretary but I would say that we wanted uh you know if at all uh such a thing we would want Pakistan to firstly accept and be able to confirm where they are because they were saying all along that they're on siachen once they identify by now that we have the means to identify where the troops are it would be clear that Pakistan is nowhere to see action and then we would turn ah people would turn around and say okay whoa that mitti is not no no not at all you know you see what happens is", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-95", "text": "at all you know you see what happens is that Glacier looks the same everywhere so you can't possibly be doing you can make bahubalis you know things can be done anyway yes so that that doesn't make the pakeezah wanting to see that yes they are nowhere near Seattle and you don't trust Pakistan at all you know Pakistan is who do you trust in Pakistan who runs Pakistan the politicians can't be trusted because they don't know what is going on remote control or the real control is with the pakami you can't trust the park Army because pakami by a by and large is always using terrorism as an instrument of State policy I saw you control as it says himself but so Pakistan is not a country which can be trusted at all distrust and you wanted to lose the height imagine hindsight imagine the kind of ah you know the feeling of that it's an asset test for a soldier you ask a soldier today he takes pride in saying I served on why does he say yeah", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-96", "text": "saying I served on why does he say yeah though he's serve in 90 days maybe some a little more but the fact that you have said no first woman officer on Glacier stays 90 days or will be staying 90 days why do does everybody say so because you take pride you're testing your human endurance as you can you survive can you do something good and all that and if you can survive that has helped us a great deal in fighting in eastern why are the Chinese on the line of actual control by China control because all the troops more or less since 84 by now would have experienced the action because if they are staying only for 90 days and you have to turn over the troops quite sizable number of them would have served on CIA and kamba if you have served on siachen and lived and you can teachers 10 minus 75 you could live in a rarified oxygen you could live in this kind of weather conditions where blizzard over there and positions where you can't", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-97", "text": "where blizzard over there and positions where you can't eat you have snowballiness you can't sleep you can't see you can't breathe you find it difficult to talk you Define difficult to touch anything if you can survive there and still be vigilant and be a Sentry on the post and be able to say the dushman has come you think Chinese can face India because for them you find that these people are up and about confidence only comes when you have gone through all this this kind of weather terrain inhospitable Terrain terribly inhospitable terrain each one of us so he's thoroughly like what he said acclimatization so everybody in the Indian army is acclimatized to fight at those great Heights without you know we can say we have an army of Mountaineers who can totally deployed from Eastern the Lac or the loc is all alongside all along the mountains only most of it and therefore it is a great experience that the Indian army gets by being on top of Sea action at the", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-98", "text": "gets by being on top of Sea action at the same time Pakistan cannot be trusted and thirdly when you're occupying Heist why would you want to lose Heights those kind of troops again you have to learn you see what happened in kargil why was Cargill launched yes that's what I was going to come was Cargill a Revenge uh for what had happened in siachen did Musharraf think that we lost and I I have to say face absolutely it is because he said I must show the Indian armed forces in poor light because he as uh SSG Commander failed all his attacks failed one after the other as a brigadier field and now he was the chief of the Army staff so much so that will prime minister vajpai is being introduced by Nawaz Sharif he refuses to salute the Prime Minister look at it what's going on in his mind because he was already thinking of kargil he already knew what he was going to be doing in kargil and therefore you find", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-99", "text": "to be doing in kargil and therefore you find that this man thought that occupying Cargill Heights would be a quit procure for what the Indians had done to them on siachen it wasn't to be the pakistanis could not fight the Indians on siachen and are nowhere near Seattle but we fought hard to regain our Heights on kargil but of course at what cost yeah at what cost so therefore in mountains whoever occupies Heights must not vacate those sides and therefore to say so that we can make it peace Mountain definitely not I don't think as long as the neighbors are what we have and we can't change our neighbors they did Pakistan or China we might always be alert 24 by 7 and I would say four wand is forearms I will quote you in which you had said capacity building takes time intentions can change overnight 100 capacity if you see how much time is taking even to occupy Bella foundler the helicopters can take maximum to now the helicopters don't even", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-100", "text": "can take maximum to now the helicopters don't even take two they sometimes take only 15 kgs of 50 kgs per flight only 50 kgs or if the me 70 is flying bigger then they're dropping they're not Landing so this small ones are taking only 50 kg a man weighs more than that so that means you can take only one man with nothing so just see the amount of logistics involvement the porters the helicopters cells not easy so once you occupy this great ice so capacity building takes time now if you are there eyeball to eyeball and Mirror Image deployment in ladakh opposite the Chinese you think the Chinese will venture anything wrong despite what they did at galwan they did attempt to do that at the Yankees what did that show that they are probing we have to be alert we have to ensure and what better training and what better is a kind of motivated troops that we have the kind of training ground that we have the kind of training that we impart the kind of", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-101", "text": "the kind of training that we impart the kind of equipment that we give the kind of modern equipment weapon you know the kind of food that we are giving the living that is available today the kind of hearts that we have constructed for them centrally heated things that are there communication facilities available where Fernandez would even tell the bureaucrat that before you sign a file on siachen please make sure that you have seen the action if you have not seen session don't say anything about raksha mantri George Fernandez who went to see urchin and who experienced that in not many people thought that George Fernandez equipment and go there is one defense minister who's got maximum number of time on siachen because he realized that if these troops are there it's very essential why does the Prime Minister go why doesn't we are with you and once you go there your eyes are enough to show you whether the morale is high or low so also the civilian leadership unless they see on ground what the troops", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-102", "text": "leadership unless they see on ground what the troops need till then they can't sign off on stuff like you went uh General Hoon went and got all those uh all that equipment now had he not seen it had he not told uh venkatraman who was the raksha mantri and had he not told the prime minister they would because we for us in the way Indian army is the civilian leadership has to sign off on everything right so I think uh maybe that is probably the reason why uh you know the Army always wants the civilian leadership to go to the forward areas and another thing is you know after all we are we were not uh a very developed Nation at that point of time GDP wise we are not as strong as that we are today if we are amongst the top five is great because we spend about five crores per day uh to sustain our proposition so today it is Affordable but those days it probably was difficult to sustain and therefore the need is you know", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-103", "text": "to sustain and therefore the need is you know all these talks peace mountains but you know cutting down on costs even when you talk of T to tail ratio here to sustain 10 men on top of Bill of online probably whatever tail which is of 40 to 50 men then only can you sustain those 10 men so when you say cutting teeth to tell ratio and wanting to you know ah cut short the arm it's not easy because the terrain that we all operate in is extremely extremative you can't have your tanks and bmps and weapons starting in the morning but that's the even in uh on Lac we have these problems right keyboard diesel Valley uh yeah keep it warm we have to ensure that the equipment is functional the time when you start talk like either start over here you can't now be Insurance it has to be on for whatever the number of hours it's supposedly only then the equipment is functional so it's not easy to be able to fight or deter your adversaries on such", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-104", "text": "able to fight or deter your adversaries on such eyes so you know you lost uh man you were talking about chanchal and you talked about Ramesh uh when they passed away I'm just bringing the human element into this that you know that there is one thing about tactical moves which have to be done but you know like when Cargill happened uh at that time our soldiers passed away we didn't have this all weather coffins to bring back our soldiers and those had to be imported and at that time I still remember that you know there was this whole talk that coffee that what is it how were these built-in-hour bodies of our soldiers uh the last how were they sent back and what happened after kargil see what happens is those these wooden coffees will be made then the wooden coffees are heavier to carry also plus obviously you have to cut ensures that so much of wood is available and then if it has to be transported the government had taken a decision that", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-105", "text": "to be transported the government had taken a decision that the body must reach the family if it has just reached the family earlier we would like in 84. most of the people who died in level unit pay cremation cremated them there only and you just sent a telegram to the family saying that Ramesh and chanchal got cremated their base camp yeah and you mentioned about Ramesh you know I remember when we went for the investiture ceremony and because he had got Kitty chakra possible so his wife was carrying a small baby about seven months just seven months baby and years later years later his brother called me up to say that that little baby has grown up and he wants to join Pokemon oh okay I said nothing like it what a fantastic that lady hadn't married at all and she was carrying this seven month old baby who must have been she herself must have been about maybe 19 or 20 small her father-in-law was from the Kumar regimen her father was the Kumar regiment", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-106", "text": "Kumar regimen her father was the Kumar regiment is one of is one of the oldest regiments decorated the first person incidentally viewers our office is on somnath Marg and so when General mentions this this office is exactly where uh you know the road is Major somnath Mark and you'll be surprised both brothers were younger team are still alive yeah one of them retired as the chief of the Army staff so the other one retired as the engineering Chief the one who's engineering she will turn 100 this year will be a little lesser than that and both of them that's what may God give them good life and long life stand straight and recollect no loss of memory whatsoever yeah and their brother was the first of November 1947 and imagine his 2023 the brothers are alive and they know everything because they were also the one who is alive at 99th plus we'll turn 100 he was a captain when major somnath Sharma was a major in the Army he was a captain in the Army", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-107", "text": "in the Army he was a captain in the Army so imagine and their father a general his father was a general Army Medical Corps yeah so I'll come back to this this whole Cargill what experience from uh siachen uh did we learn and uh use in Cargill and what have we learned and used on the Lac you would think that all that's happening in galban and in arunachal first of course the troops themselves right it's very essential acclimatization behind the weapon is very important you could have the finest of weapons the finest of modern equipment and what have you but if the man behind it is not mentally tuned and his morale is high he must be physically fit and mentally robust to be physically fit and to be mentally robust it's very essential that he must be familiar under the circumstances he's supposed to be operating in so when he sees all of it he knows it he if it is he can sort of protect himself you know though", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-108", "text": "is he can sort of protect himself you know though we have buddy system each one of us if I'm trained into being able to identify that suddenly you find that he's not talking much or is showing symptoms of high altitude sickness immediately we tell the doctor or pick up the phone and tell he vomit to lose height you start improving yourself so all these kind of things which come there now you realize how much of weight can you carry how can you sustain yourself at that great height you understand how Logistics are important because it is not how much it is after all to bring even the 15 kgs of Atta at that great height you so many people are required and each one of them will be handing out to the other person and otherwise is flying in so numbers are important I remember self that we keep shooting them and cockroach in the sense that the reason they use the word cockroach was that you are not going to stop more and more men will come even if they get", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-109", "text": "more and more men will come even if they get shot it's not easy you know it's very easier said than done when you see a man in front of you dead or wounded and you're still carrying on not easy you have to be trained you have to be very motivated to see to it irrespective what it is and that only comes when you know for sure that your family will be taken care of and that Soldier knows that his family will be taken care of even if he's a bachelor and he's died his family gets over a crore and if it is mother or father they get the last patron of that boy as if he's still in survey wife gets it children are taken care of money comes in so the man knows he is so foreign but financially the family is taken care of and that Assurance I think is a huge motivating factor in India in India the nli lost so many very sad they would not even identify their bodies they would not even take their bodies we wrapped", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-110", "text": "they would not even take their bodies we wrapped them up in Pakistan if likes them told them that is where it is I remember in Cargill there was an officer by the name of Captain taimur you know General V K sings company officer retired as Lieutenant General a colleague of mine left and his Battalion 27 rajput that he was commanding they had killed Captain taimur and the party occupying a height of five seven seven zero I'm talking five seven seven zero meters when I'm saying in meters you have to multiply by 3.3 to know the height in feet feet so you can well imagine at what height they killed taimur was well born with a silver spoon it his grandfather was in London father was a brigadier and so they wanted his body and they wrote that please get his body and send it to us we would like to have they moved back I remember telling them why just his body we'll send all your bodies by not only him all your Pakistani", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-111", "text": "your bodies by not only him all your Pakistani bodies are lying with us please take them all yeah and we wrapped all of them in the Pakistani flag and send it and they accepted all of them I said not only taimur why taimur and the others Pakistani soldiers I said a soldier is a soldier you must Respect the Dead and please take they took all their bodies so just want to ask you you have been you uh you mushaira failed as a kernel as a brigadier then as a general in between as a major general Lieutenant General any failures with India um for him you know what what would have happened he would have been a co-commander okay and uh the other things he would have been in touch with Nawaz Sharif was the man who made him made the chief of the Army staff and uh well I don't know because he is a different kind of a person but I do remember reading in a book in which uh Nawaz Sharif was very known to give very", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-112", "text": "uh Nawaz Sharif was very known to give very expensive gifts to the co-commanders and especially the core Commander so that you know he they are keptical numbers don't have me hanging from commanders in Pakistan would themselves be saying because he would give them BMWs give them brand new BMWs that is the way Pakistan is run so you have the prime minister of Pakistan driving his gifting his own Commander so that they are kept in good humor and uh there it is so you have all these kind of stories I don't know much about it so we are General we kissing out here and uh we were talking to him because you know I quoted once he had said that as a military commander he kind of had a respect for General musharra because he came 11 kilometers inside India and he stayed a night because I mean foolhardi moves that he had done but he was like he was like so to motivate his men he came in and 11 kilometers inside and he stead stayed the", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-113", "text": "and 11 kilometers inside and he stead stayed the night now you tell me at that time I said it wasn't it foolhardy for him to do that and general Wiki Singh said that sometimes you need to do these kind of things is that true see what happens firstly of course uh himself and you do need to motivate your people who he himself subsequently said they are not my men yeah he disowned his own men and nli the Northern Light infantry and we call them terrorists or you call them's word for all his terrorists no there's Heroes whom he called them he disowned them we had to virtually plead that please take back your bodies otherwise we will give them a good funeral that is not a problem we Respect the Dead and we will give them funeral but they are your men they accepted so definitely I would say Musharraf at that point of time to motivate his people you would have done that anybody would do that to motivate his men in whichever form that", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-114", "text": "that to motivate his men in whichever form that they wish to get motivated or I think they require that kind of motivation that's perfectly fine but as a general he let down his men totally without fail as a chief thing that he should have done he should have owned his you know even the kind of uh ill treatment that he gave to some of our own officers whose bodies came subsequently they kind of think that they're done I think it was not expected of a country who are our neighbors now what is Yusuf Musharraf himself his own death nobody knows what time his body is flown in from Dubai how quietly the funeral has been given nobody knows other than the family where so obviously a man who did not look after his men in the manner he should have finally found the same farewell to his own body so it is because he let down his country he let down his men and he attempted to do something which he thought that Indians will take it lying down", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-115", "text": "which he thought that Indians will take it lying down how can Indians take it lying down and now after that if somebody wishes to make a low hanging fruit kisiacin is a low hanging fruit or is not possible Pakistan is not a nation that can be trusted because you never know what is going to happen in 1947 used to stay country has not been formed also Pakistan still then Pakistani officers were going to Jannah and wanting to plot what they did subsequently in Jammu and Kashmir Yaya Khan is a G2 to field Marshal maneksha maneksha is G1 as Lieutenant Colonel Yaya Khan is major as G2 and 71 was being played President of Pakistan in 71 Yaya Khan he was Major to foreign the motorcycle of maneksha and told him that I'll pay you later you give me your motorcycle because the same motorcycle field Marshall then as a colonel would pick him up from Princess park next to India Gate is Princess Park so they were all staying there as youngster", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-116", "text": "Park so they were all staying there as youngster it pick him up and bring him to office and he said while leaving uh going back to park Army he said the Manisha I want a motorcycle he said it cost so much yeah he said 10 year I'll pay you once I go back to Pakistan I said he never paid and believe you me field Marshall partner you never paid me for the bike now you have to pay East Pakistan you lost because you didn't pay me for my motorcycle you know I think I mean how many tables because we were in the uh 10 to 11 standard at that time drunk fully drunk I couldn't imagine Pakistan president what is talking I think he alone knew what he was talking I I still remember sir 71 I must have been a child or something at that time you know I was like in 71 I'd recall at that time in School uh seniorsan dash dash dash you know because at that time Yaya Khan was such a villain he used to claim", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-117", "text": "Khan was such a villain he used to claim all kinds of things to recollect I don't know whether you're correct we used to have a news item from all India radio which is used to cover all what these pakistanis were saying what they are doing and what is happening over there obviously you know when you're on the back foot you're always wanting to not to tell your nation that you have lost the war yeah again had a very funny thing you know his eyebrows would be like this you know yeah like and you wanted to show himself and he is one of those few pathans along with Ayub Khan Khan was also uh you know you've seen the park Amir eyeball to eyeball like you were talking about yeah you know so many times actually I met them at the place in Rajasthan where from you go to the train can go up to kokropa right across and we have water trains coming and you're delivering us water at manaba now of course the fencing", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-118", "text": "us water at manaba now of course the fencing has been done those days we used to meet them very often at the border pillar so fencing is on the dunes I have seen that fencing where no but I've also seen that that would you Niche Challenge and the fence is hanging in the air I've seen those now it goes along now it does yeah and it's beautiful in it it's virtually a tourist uh place now people go I met them at uh number of times so as people I remember so you've seen this infantry I don't know whether this happens when when you're there and they are on the other side and this eyeball to eyeball like I in films they show that you know when you lose a cricket match what happens is it true does it happen you know I must share with you two incidents one in 1970 it I was a tandar okay posted and there's a nastachun path which we used to call it sadhna pass in the Army most of", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-119", "text": "call it sadhna pass in the Army most of these passes are named after film actresses names of these female actresses and some of these Peaks also so if you say Hema Peak universe so it was this is all in Jammu Kashmir uh for our viewers and listeners who live abroad uh in Jammu Kashmir we have a very strong presence and general Kulkarni was there you're talking about the 1970s 19788 and uh a place called tangdar and we were there I was at a place a post called there and right opposite overlooking is a huge thing I could oversee on the kitchen ganga River that's Pakistan occupied Kashmir just search they had a post which was just about 50 yards in front of me which is mind I'm there but generally very heavy snowfall uh it was New Year so I thought uh you know their company Commander would rarely come rarely come and as a youngster I was always there you know because that post was right in front and opposite for the to", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-120", "text": "post was right in front and opposite for the to the company Commander okay so on top of my banker I had written Happy New Year 78. and so they also they must have set this up Happy New Year Happy New Year I said Happy New Year he said Happy New Year I could make out that is quite senior to me and you know elderly looking pathan dress me and he was standing in front of me so a conversation he said [Music] captain and we had lost the Series to Pakistan and so he was you know trying to poke foreign so these kind of conversations do take place I remember uh one of the chaps that cut wood you know it was a walnut wood piece lying over there a water point and okay hahaha nice because it's a water point where we would also go and get water and they would also go get water so the carpenter probably not able to bring it up lock it up so that Walnut coffees in Turkey because and these mountains is very difficult to have water", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-121", "text": "and these mountains is very difficult to have water and this water would be from Springs or through all these and so there was Point water point one two three what a point one they could come and collect the water whenever they wanted it water point two is there was a timing once the water time one had dried up water point two we had timings that morning they'll come after that they will not come so they will be given to us water point three no question it was very much you know and I put a big drum say over a whole day the drum would get filled up adequate for my men for water so water point one dried up water point two also dried up now water point three the chaps are wanting to come and take water I told him I said no way you have to handle it where is your company Commander I said I'm the company Commander here I'm not going to let you take water from me you have whatever strength you have I don't know what strength you are", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-122", "text": "strength you have I don't know what strength you are but you are coming from Top coming down and taking water Jerry can make I won't let you take water from my water point this is my exclusive one I've allowed you you are still coming down I have not said anything to you two I have still allowed you okay bye up three also you won't believe that chap was a baluchi I know it came down it said sabji foreign so this is Pakistan yeah and I've seen it with my own eyes in 1978 this was in 1982. this has been a real interesting conversation sir and uh though I'm not from the kuma regimen may I say ram ram in conclusion and Jai Hind and uh God bless you and thank you so much for the services for keeping us safe uh and all the best in your life thank you very much uh indeed honored and again as I said it's not me for God's sake has no role to play if not for the men if not for the seniors and", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "0eaf33f798b1-123", "text": "not for the men if not for the seniors and if not for the colleagues we are nobody so all of us as a team and we deliver as a team and that is all the morale of the Indian army is sustained and that is how hats off to our men who can deliver anywhere anytime we need not worry at all and all the best thank you thank you thank you for watching or listening into this episode do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste click here to watch the previous episodes foreign [Music]", "source": "wSYQRJWld0c"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-0", "text": "I don't want to be known as shefali did a good role I'd rather be recognized as the character I haven't worked with anyone touchwood who's been a dictator besides one everyone's gone through it being touched inappropriately I played a mother very very early in my life that kind of finished my chances off okay bus finished I think they didn't know what to do with me because I was a no big deal honestly Smitha in the last two years I've gotten the kind of recognition that I have supermodels are anorexic otherwise it was always thin tall Fair yeah I mean you don't like me fair enough the woman was an accessory chair shelf life of 18 to 20 to 25. after that if you ask what is the character Hiroki every character leaves something with you and every character takes something out of you I keep telling some of my directors give me an item number Namaste Jai Hind welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is somebody who's", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-1", "text": "Smitha prakash today my guest is somebody who's been called an impossibly skilled actor I found the term quite apt because she is essaying every role in such a perfect manner that shefali Shah is something of a complete actor today I'm in Mumbai a city which he calls her home shivalaji thank you so much for coming on please do not call me shafaliji okay I I was going to call you Smita ji no but then I said no not love okay fine shefali thank you for giving me the privilege for calling you that absolutely my pleasure and coming on the podcast um well there are no two opinions today that you're one of the most talented actresses uh in the film industry you've acted in such a gamut of roles that you know to pick and choose as to which one I want to talk to you about I had a great difficulty so um but you know you you've been around for so long in the film industry one doesn't realize it Monsoon so like uh", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-2", "text": "industry one doesn't realize it Monsoon so like uh it's unfair for me to ask you pick your best or whatever so tell me first about Monsoon wedding so uh I just done Satya and I remember I was out of town and Meera called me and the first thing she said is I don't even know if you speak English okay which was a great compliment because it meant that Satya I could manage to be the character that was there so uh and she just gave me a brief on the phone and I said yes I mean it was really as simple as that it was so difficult to roll it was difficult to roll and honestly when I look back today I felt I didn't do enough Justice to it but I think the film is a cult you know and also what happened with that film is that a lot of people started talking about yeah these conversations which people did not have before correct uh you know that XYZ has been through it and honestly if you look back I remember", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-3", "text": "through it and honestly if you look back I remember a lot of my friends and we were having a conversation and almost everyone's had a unfortunate experience yes you know whatever the magnitude but that was a very important part and yet it was fun and it's it's a classic I mean like you can watch it at any point of time yeah I mean my sons I remember showing it to them and they loved it it's not a guy's film Like a Boy movie I don't think I think it was it was everyone and the film is like I said it's a cult film yeah it's it's a superlative film yeah at that time I interviewed Meera Nair and uh simply because I wanted to you know it's not as if it landed on my uh lap uh I sought out and I wanted to do this interview because I was like my goodness um stuff that we have kept quiet about nobody you know it's like you know there's a wrong touch you know that weddings are open season for", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-4", "text": "wrong touch you know that weddings are open season for those dirty old uncles to do things and nobody will say anything because you know and you etched that role how did you emote it like where does it come from are you total directors actor or did you did you bring it from some latent feeling inside you no I think it comes from a latent feeling of course you have to keep in mind that nobody sees the film as the Director does I don't have the capacity to see the entire film like in its entirety um like I said earlier everyone's gone through it you know even if like I remember walking in a market in a crowded market and being touched inappropriately and feeling crap about it and never ever saying anything never saying anything because I wouldn't say it's guilt but it's just you know it's shameful and wondering whether you did anything to invite it but not in a Marketplace you know what I mean yeah but yes I agree with you a lot of people feel", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-5", "text": "yes I agree with you a lot of people feel did I do anything you feel guilty you feel shameful and you feel you don't pull down like shove it under the carpet kind of a thing so uh I thought it was a very important and honestly I don't even think I gave it so much thought okay you know it's an important conversation to start it was just something that struck straight inside me and the entire film I mean like like you said you know in weddings is when all the skeletons drop out of the closet yeah whether it's about um you know about child abuse or any like there are various things and it's a chaos and Madness and yet it's coming together of relationships which finally stand the test of time and uh the fraying of relationships I mean if it's wedding I I have to get on to the wedding anniversary right and that was another part like I saw you as a young person in that film in Monsoon wedding where you touched me as a", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-6", "text": "in Monsoon wedding where you touched me as a youngster and then I see you in that way you're that Auntie that socialite Auntie which we have all seen who who has it's like ah you know living up to the Joneses and don't discuss the uncomfortable true where did you have you met those kind uh honestly I haven't really uh because I'm uh I wouldn't say picky but I just don't go to places I'm I have nothing to contribute or you know I have my close bunch of people etc etc so I you've met people like that but not on a deeper to understand yeah that angst that I think it was um I have to give it to Meera to Zoya I mean to all the directors I've worked with you know when you have such a solid blueprint to work on it becomes easier but all these directors have been very lucky uh where they I have cast me because they know I am going to get something to the table so they've never", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-7", "text": "going to get something to the table so they've never told me you know what I mean you emote this raw sentiment you know this uh Beezer sentiment but there you told to uh and the only time I saw it I mean one sees it not I everyone sees it as in when you have that catharsis when that eating yeah that cake eating episode oh my God it was like it rung your heart at that stage and it was you know when I read the script uh I thought I remember after the film got over and we had a screening and I remember Javed Saab and uh Rima and Zoya telling me that you know it was the weakest roll on paper and I was like really because I thought it was the strongest role on paper after Pluto okay but she didn't want me to play the dog I wasn't good looking enough I guess but he's there all the way he's a rock star of the film and um but when I read that scene I said you know", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-8", "text": "but when I read that scene I said you know there's so much here and the beauty of it or the irony of it is that there is this whole facade she puts on throughout she's fake yeah she's completely fake she's manipulative she is hiding everything she's almost misogynistic she has this sense of what your daughter should do or what is the right thing to do as a woman which is take care of your house and be married and have kids and at the same time she's really broken yeah so that's why you don't dislike her yeah you just feel like and like you said there was so many women who've come up to me and said you know it seemed like our story yeah and um you saw that those women which you used to think ah you know she's fake yeah most of us would dismiss a person for being fake but not realize that there's a reason that they are the way they are true you know and then you do that and then you confuse Everybody by taking a", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-9", "text": "do that and then you confuse Everybody by taking a very strong stand on philandering and on violence and when comes Darlings in that you are this militant mom telling her daughter to walk out on a husband whereas in uh in the other movie you were telling your daughter not to walk out on the husband true so here you are the feminist mom and actually I mean like I don't know how your kids saw it your son started like huh killing her how does that work I think they thought it was very black comedy and she's wicked she's weak I love her her she's so wicked she has a sense of humor she's wicked she's an independent woman she has a past which could have broken her but she's come out of it and said okay I'm gonna live for my daughter but at the same time she doesn't stop living for herself yeah you know she still wants to make this uh cookery thing that I want to cook and etc etc and she is a very", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-10", "text": "to cook and etc etc and she is a very bright full of life character you know and honestly she's very close to who I am as a person really yeah so who are you as a person um I'd like to believe I am oh a lot of things uh but Wicked yes I like to believe I'm funny um I'd do anything to protect people I love my children I mean I would kill for them um I I really think Injustice you need to stop it before you expect anyone around you to stop it yeah um very move it uh and I have no facade yeah so that comes across clear when you act it's it's as if um you're not acting you've imbibed that rule that Honesty comes across very clearly so uh even if you're doing a wicked role uh it it just it seems like you have become Wicked at that stage so what do you do do you is there a lot of method acting that goes in this so there is a I hate using that", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-11", "text": "in this so there is a I hate using that term there is a lot of uh I don't believe in method acting I don't okay because I feel like [Music] I mean you can't do that but there is a lot of thought conversations with the director with the actors about mainly the director and you know what is she where does she come from because what you're seeing is let's say three months of their life or that like a slice of life but what has built up to it to who she's become is what matters so even if you don't even if there is not a scene saying it you can sense it uh through the film and I feel um I don't want to be known as shefali did a good role I'd rather be recognized as the character okay I don't want shefali to be seen there so I feel and I'm I get obsessive with my script and the stories and and then it's just becoming her so what do you take you take the script and you you", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-12", "text": "do you take you take the script and you you start living that person first I make 100 notes like it's a it's like oh God she asks so many questions on the on your script yeah so I make notes I make a lot of notes I have a lot of questions okay and then you just start I don't know it's a subconscious thing I guess it's not like there is a pattern to what I do because whatever I ask whatever I discuss whatever I write it may never come out it may not be tangible but it it shows in how this woman feels you know like a scene I believe is the is the last thing that comes into picture uh you know yes you do the scene right but what has led up to that scene even if you don't see it you can sense it yeah and you know um some of the films that you do uh like even the the shows uh the Ott shows like Delhi cram I'll be honest with you I didn't see the first season because I've I've", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-13", "text": "I didn't see the first season because I've I've seen the whole episode I mean I've seen the actual thing that happened and we journalists who reported those uh things it was it was gut wrenching we didn't sleep for months we saw how it affected everybody it was too much so when when it actually came in I don't want to go through this catharsis again again it is it's too raw and then when the second season and then if of course everybody was like what how can you not see this so then it became okay fine and unwrap that thing let's go through it all over again and it's a gamut of emotions how did you go through this one and two like after one did you like I don't want to do do this again no on the contrary I love stepping back into varthika's shoes yeah it's my favorite character when I met Rishi Mehta for one it was actually a five minute briefing within five minutes I said yes and uh you know you all may", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-14", "text": "I said yes and uh you know you all may be knowing that side of the story uh being journals but I didn't yeah like everyone else we were torn with what happened yeah and the one question which was constant was why is no one doing anything about this hmm when I read the script when Rishi narrated what the one line was I was like oh my god there was somebody doing something about this and it was a woman yeah and she cracked it you know so there was Injustice and then there was this woman who got Justice you met keep meeting chair I met chayamam once um over a coffee for like two three two three hours I spoke to her about it um and uh not just about the case but about her relationship with other people what are her thought processes etc etc and uh then uh every time I had a question I would text her you know that is this right also there is a protocol right when you are in in uniform when you're in a field like this but a", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-15", "text": "uniform when you're in a field like this but a simple thing is when you take your cap off you know stuff like that so whenever there were questions okay I always reached out so that authenticity you wanted in your authenticity and also uh of course the blueprint of DC was Rock Solid and uh I remember Rishi telling me he said I don't want an actor I want a collaborator on this hmm whatever I could create is on paper but now I want you to make her your own person so yes it's not like I could imbibe Chaya ma'am I'm not good at it and you can't you can't encapsulate a person or pick it up no it's your character you have to make her her own person but her values uh I think their Universal values yeah you know the pain that we all felt the need for justice to cry for justice so did the director give you that scope to you to mold that the way you wanted it or was it a collaborative effort it's always a", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-16", "text": "was it a collaborative effort it's always a collaborative effort and not just between the director and the actor I genuinely believe filmmaking is a collaborative effort between everyone like for example we are sitting and having a conversation but if this Dada uh you know the light flickers or the sound goes off it's not going to work yeah so it is a collaborative I mean anyone who believes the creative process is wow great good for you okay so let's go to Satya I'm as I told you I'm going to go one by one sure on my favorites so how did Satya come your way and that was like a cult uh you know and it's always been a cult whoever got with that film uh says that that was life-changing experience for them was is it for you to so um I remember uh Manoj and me were very close friends then and he was doing the film and he said you know uh ramusa would like to talk to you about this and I remember anurag", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-17", "text": "talk to you about this and I remember anurag coming to me and he narrated what it was and I thought wow this is this would be really exciting and I was too young to understand the magnitude of it you know it was the first time I'd worked with an international dop the sound system the way the where you're just given a one line and said okay where do you want to go with this or the scene really this is the Crux of the scene but um knowing Marathi was a big Advantage etc etc so it it was a very enjoyable it was you know it was like almost like theater like where you all come together and you're contributing and you're working on things and there is no hierarchy or um dictatorship thank God I haven't worked with anyone touchwood who's been a dictator besides one but that's um but yeah I I wish today when I look back I feel wow I could have enjoyed it so much more but then on the other hand maybe I", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-18", "text": "much more but then on the other hand maybe I wouldn't have enjoyed it more if I would have understood wow we're doing something really serious and life-altering but uh you said I've been lucky I have not worked with some people you've been very picky in who you want to work with and what you want to do otherwise you would have done 100 or 200 more films because you've been around since quite some time but you were picky you didn't just say but why why did you do that like was it because you wanted to have a certain path or it was like no this I can't uh I've never planned my career never I do what I I love what I do okay so if something hits me right here I will do it if it doesn't I won't do it doesn't matter Banner no because I won't be happy on the set and it won't be fair to me and it won't be fair to the makers so what's the purpose of it but it films came to you where you", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-19", "text": "of it but it films came to you where you were playing mom to people who were older than you how did that touch you for everything you know that was uh which was a film uh based on a play and I'd seen the play and I loved the story and I loved her character and uh there was this um what do you say this temptation of working with two of my favorite men in the industry uh Mr bachan and vipul so I said I want to do this in fact vipul was the one who said do not do it yeah if for viewers living abroad vipul is my husband is shefali's husband and he's a noted film director so he said do not do it and then amitji uh suggested my name he said why don't you wash shefali and I was like see I'm telling you I want to do it and seriously you were to have somebody else to reduce it and uh that's how it happened okay yeah and of course you've spoken about it recently", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-20", "text": "yeah and of course you've spoken about it recently also and I think twice I've seen that where you said that uh Amitabh Bachchan jokingly calls you Malkin ever since because you know you're married to the film producer uh no he thinks I he calls me Malkin because he thinks I'm bigger than the producer I'm the director on that set yeah he has a sense of humor which is very dry oh my God yeah he's amazing I love amiji okay so when you when you act with him I believe he's he's a stickler right he comes on time and he's uh he's there for those X number of hours and things work differently in a film set when Mr Button is around they work the way they're supposed to work okay I mean think of someone coming on time well that's unexpected yeah it's becoming delayed I mean I know it's it works the other way which is the norm which is not the right thing which is not I mean so amiji does everything that", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-21", "text": "which is not I mean so amiji does everything that is required or he contributes to a film completely and not just coming on time I mean that's a basic but uh you know he treats you at Power he of course I was I mean I was completely like oh my God uh but he puts you at ease and when he's talking to you or when he's you know he is it's like your the only person he's talking to it's not a frivolous thing and of course he has a sense of humor and what an actor so it was like um anybody who's acted with him or with you know Hollywood grades like when I asked what was it like with Anthony Hopkins or Tom Cruise or something and they all say that they're phenomenal actors but they put the other person at ease and I guess that's why the magic comes out of that moment absolutely when you're acting you can see that the other person is not in awe and the other person doesn't look at you as", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-22", "text": "awe and the other person doesn't look at you as Amitabh Bachchan absolutely looking at you as the character and they've become and that's where the chemistry comes in from also yeah so you didn't get scared look everybody knows being Typecast as a mom right saransh it was a movie which you know typified what father's grieving loss all that got all the dad rules so and then everybody thinks mom roll Matlab nirupa Roy and no offends to niropa Roy but that crushed cotton saree and yeah big VP eyes yeah so and you have lovely eyes so did you did you get at some point yeah I got a lot of offers of the same time and uh I just said I don't want to do it huh well remember actually huh I don't remember so when you say no it's no I'm not doing it yeah and I don't think they get offended at least earlier they wouldn't because I was a no big deal so they would feel like what do you mean no", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-23", "text": "so they would feel like what do you mean no big deal because it's uh you know honestly Smitha in the last two years I've gotten the kind of recognition that I have uh in all this while people said one of the finest actors but it didn't translate into work why did that happen what do you think I mean you must have thought about it that why were their periods where six months to a year you didn't get a film when the earlier film was such a fabulous hit where everybody appreciates exactly because I played age at a very young age and once you do that that's that's what you carry for the rest of your life because even worked yeah so then and also until now um you know in the 70s 80s 70s in fact there were films which were women oriented and women at any age but then there was this whole patch where the woman was just the accessory to the film and uh it's changing now again where there are stories that are being told and the lead is", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-24", "text": "are stories that are being told and the lead is not just 18 to 25. you know she's coming of age she is uh blossoming at any point of time so I think they didn't know what to do with me and it was very simple you know I remember reading an interview of rohiniha tangari long long ago and she said that she did the role of kasturba early in her life when she wasn't that old but that role began from young to old but still she was kasturba so every film producer she would approach and say I mean I've acted with Ben Kingsley For Heaven's Sake Richard Attenborough and you think I'm not good enough they're saying we can't have kasturba Romancing an actor so where Marathi films would take her Hindi film industry was just no cannot true but that the audience will not accept you as which I I think is unfair to undermine the intelligence or sensitivity of the audience but uh I think it was just that it didn't", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-25", "text": "but uh I think it was just that it didn't fit into the box that was created according to the box office yeah also when a roll of film is so big it is difficult to break that it is I'm not questioning that uh you know I mean Gandhi is like it's wow yeah but to break the image of kasturba is one thing and to break the image of old is one thing over here I guess it was a combination of both so did you regret then at that time when you didn't get the films that you wanted or you saw somebody else getting and saying I could have etched this it this could have come my way no yeah I didn't because like I said I never planned my career I didn't even know I wanted to be an actor I had no clue let's go back now in time so childhood everything is Mumbai right everything is Mumbai born and bought up in Bombay okay and so this Bombay girl not having Bombay dreams how come uh I was uh", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-26", "text": "having Bombay dreams how come uh I was uh ridiculously protected okay um my mom is a dog my dad was with RPI I had a very very protected uh childhood uh I didn't even have friends I mean to think of it uh and you know at that point and I was completely in sync with whatever my parents said I didn't really have a mind of my own it's unbelievable yeah you've turned out because I kind of I think I snapped once I went to college then I did all the stupid stuff and um I went to mitibai you stayed in Mumbai yeah all total Bombay girl yeah okay uh and then I actually just blossom uh no I did a lot of stupid stuff which you do when you're 16 17 18 when you suddenly have the freedom yeah and uh but over time I kind of you know I I wasn't becoming blase but I was just really becoming comfortable in what I thought so you get into Stage right yes and that has remained a first love", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-27", "text": "Stage right yes and that has remained a first love I wouldn't say so no I know a lot of people say that and I love becoming characters so whether it's for stage or it's Ott or its films yeah but you keep going back to Stage it's not as if you want to give up on medium for the other you'll do everything together oh well I I did I started uh with theater and then there was a long because then I started doing television etc etc and then there was a long Gap and I did theater again like a couple of years ago I think it must be at least seven eight years ago I did a play which people produced and Chandra Khan Kulkarni had directed it and recently in fact people asked me that would you want to do a play and I you know it requires a lot of time commitment it does you really as compared to films uh yes because one is the rehearsals yes they may think and people might be getting through with uh 20", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-28", "text": "think and people might be getting through with uh 20 days of rehearsals and five days of grand rehearsal I don't think I can do that okay I'll I'll need time and then once you've made that commitment like you know Gujarati theater we would do 35 shows a month that's a lot that's I mean you're just performing every day yeah uh of course when we did basitna sahab that people produced we were just doing Sunday to Sunday but I want to keep my option open that tomorrow if something comes up I can give that time yeah you know so I don't want to be unfair where I've committed to something and then I back out of it okay so you're comfortable in all these languages Gujarati Marathi Hindi English all of them and that's because uh Mumbai uh no so we have National integration in our family okay so my grandmother maternal grandmother was a maharashtrian she married a Gujarati so my grandfather was a Gujarati and Mom is a", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-29", "text": "grandfather was a Gujarati and Mom is a Gujarati and my dad she married a Shetty [Music] not even a bit like just uh courtesy kind of content as much as my Tulu I can also speak just a bit just because of grandparents are you from Mangalore yes I am oh yes hello so that's how you know a little little yeah of just that much I can I think comprehend it and uh then so bad is a Shetty so I am and I can't speak the language but I can understand it completely huh so they can't about me and the children speak English I know that always happens right I don't know I think maybe it's the earlier Generations where we all spoke our grandparents language or at least understood to have a communication still with grandparents that was very important parents drilled it into you yeah that that was necessary slowly it changed where parents learned grandparents learned the language of the grandkids true and because English and Hindi so you know there's", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-30", "text": "and because English and Hindi so you know there's no need to learn the third and fourth language but see how you know versatile you are because of this mixed parentage and grandparent age and I wish I could have learned more languages like I'm dying to do a South film or I'm dying to do a Bengali film it's amazing I need to learn the language in South India the what is coming out absolutely from there they are so creative and uh suddenly I'm noticing North Indians who used to laugh at South films now waking up to the fact that some really creative stuff is happening absolutely in in and you know you were talking about taking audiences for granted uh and how everybody's had to recalibrate and not take audiences for granted anymore and I think Ott films have done a lot about that absolutely right I agree with it yes uh it has started changing any which ways you know with the parched or a tumhari Sulu or a lipstick under my book", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-31", "text": "tumhari Sulu or a lipstick under my book um all of this but otd kind of I mean I think some of the top shows are led by women and women of any age which is great so Nina Gupta in one of the interviews said that she had to actually go about asking people imagine like she also you know dates back quite some time as far as creative work is concerned about phenomenal films that she has done but it didn't come her way and this is why I'm saying that film actors filmmakers said oh she's she's good but in that way and she a person like her had to sit without getting work and now with badayo and the other films that are coming she's hot property and people are going to her asking her to act in those films with new stories new ways of telling stories it's wonderful what what one is seeing absolutely it's amazing yeah it's amazing see earlier what also used to happen like I said was that the woman was an accessory", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-32", "text": "like I said was that the woman was an accessory she had a shelf life of 18 to 20 to 25. after that you know when when you got offered something uh if you asked what is the character Hiroki no I get it that's a relationship what is a character but today all these characters have become the leads they're the center of shows films you know so are you picky that way that um that you want a central role for all the woman characters that you do uh I am very picky period okay uh but I believe I love ensembles um whether you talk about a Satya or a monsoon wedding or a Delhi crime it's not just about this woman or about one person yeah they all contribute you know so uh I mean if there are four characters for example in Darlings yeah you know who are the center characters Central characters when you talk about a jalsa the film and uh yes it is a story of Maya and Roxanna but it's the story of the kids it's the story", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-33", "text": "it's the story of the kids it's the story of the husbands the families etc etc so it becomes an ensemble cast talk to me about jalsa that's another film with two phenomenal actors come together and there's no at no point do you feel that one is trying to overshadow the other and they are so strong uh and so raw and so gut-wrenching that uh experience is in that film too so um one is Suresh triveni okay so when and I know this because one he's a very dear friend and two because I've heard his interviews uh is that he thinks of his actors and then says okay if I have X and Y now let me write something for them he made me comfortable and said I want you as rukhsana I want no one but you as ruksana and then there is somebody as benevolent and loving as Vidya and we both have a mutual admiration Club because uh why she's very giving really okay and it comes easily to her she's", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-34", "text": "really okay and it comes easily to her she's very accepting she's very embracing she treats she's not a selfish person it's not just about her and she's very vocal about it you know like when we used to do interviews I was amazed I mean because she's so open about her admiration for me her love for me and I mean I wish everyone was like that yeah and that's not a pretense trust me she is like that I guess um expressing emotions is something that actors do so much on screen that off screen they probably don't uh want to or they are they're dried out is that possible I don't think that's a valid logic if that's why they're holding back because I can't imagine acting in real life I just have to be who I am yeah you know so what yes a film took everything out of me but it's over it's finished do you get out of the character like with a jiffy when the film is packed and it's over every character leaves something", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-35", "text": "is packed and it's over every character leaves something with you and every character takes something out of you it's yeah so you can never really leave it behind it may not be tangible it may come back a couple of years later give me an example like I'm sure DC would have done that oh God DC I mean every time I like when we were doing two and you know DC one had become like whoa and uh that is a character that got me the maximum amount of appreciation and it put me into the spotlight to say so yeah and I was like how am I going to fill those shoes there is no way I will I mean it happened I don't know how I'm gonna do it and you trust me when I went back on set it was just like she's back that was just vartika there was nothing else there you know so and I'm sure somewhere I I may not be able to link oh this I'm thinking like this today a shefali because it's come from", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-36", "text": "like this today a shefali because it's come from vatika I may never be able to and vice versa you know when I'm doing a character I feel oh this is exactly how I would feel but sometimes it may not be exactly how you feel you have to feel like the character like you're this um you're this cop who who's going to make a change and who's going to do something about it and then you see something wrong happening do you feel at that stage I know it's there's a dissonance that's a character you've played in real life you may think that oh this is not my job to do this unfortunately you feel at least I feel I wish I could do something about it I don't have the power I I don't know how to correct it and so it's not it's not that I don't care because it's not my job it's almost like I care but it's not my job you direct it uh the frustration of seeing something wrong and not being able to do anything", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-37", "text": "seeing something wrong and not being able to do anything would that be directed when you do a job where you are shown to do it that that energy that you bring absolutely I felt um I had a sense of power because I could correct it somewhere and it only had to do with bharthika yeah you know but shefali doesn't have that power nothing's changed after DC yeah you know um these films come your way because everybody knows that um you you emote so much with so little not so little I don't mean it as a talent so little I know but the words that you use it's not you that you have these flowery dialogues you say little but you emote so much are you given like when they say okay shefali is playing this role let's reduce the content as well on the contrary I'm one of those few actors who goes on settings please because I'm terrible at lines and um I remember when we did juice and neeraj and me were having a conversation and he said", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-38", "text": "and me were having a conversation and he said uh do you think she should say anything in the end and I said no just that her sitting down is a statement big enough I believe we have the privilege of a camera which catches the smallest of nuances uh don't use four words if you can say it into and if you can say it without any words don't use what you should be in journalism really why do you say that because that's what we editors are always telling are you know the Young Writers because in journalism schools it's you know flowery writing because creative writing so there's like you know so early in my career like this I shouldn't be talking you should be telling me but tell me I'm interested in knowing yeah so you know I the training was like that the Prime Minister shook hands with the visiting dignity When Vladimir put it that Mr Putin has come down and your shaking hands then why do you need to say true right give some other information to", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-39", "text": "need to say true right give some other information to pad up to what so it's a visual medium your words are secondary to it agreed so don't describe what is already on being seen yeah true so uh so when I was when we were when I was like assisting the BBC reporter who I was just assisting at that time so when I was doing that and they were cutting out cutting out and I think you know and then I realized why he was cutting out and then you know when they voice it also you know that that because you know see how our training is like the Prime Minister today because you know that's how we heard it right all India radio used to that yeah yeah then that natural way of talking and then I used to think it wasn't like that true it was more conversational more and that is what is happening with Ott you know it's not like we interview uh uh forges who come and say breakfast you know but now with Ott it's so realistic", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-40", "text": "you know but now with Ott it's so realistic absolutely you know when you come and you your hair is in a knot yeah where do you remember that film um where Rani Mukherjee is vacuuming with where she acted with Abhishek Bachchan no offense to the filmmakers or to Rani or whatever but that's how films used to be where you're vacuuming with that full makeup on and with your hair gorgeous and you're wearing a tube top and vacuuming and then come you Vidya and all that you know with tumhari Salu or whatever and you where you know Judah essay on top with one Dundee in your hair and zero makeup or at least a very natural look so that's why you guys have become Cults now where are you saying ha she's like us but it also has to do with the changing face of Cinema see I'm sure like for example exactly you know I don't remember the film that uh you're talking about of Rani and then if", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-41", "text": "uh you're talking about of Rani and then if you remember Yuva huh you know that song between Rani and Abhishek yeah and it's so natural yeah so it it also has to do with the vision of the makeup yeah you know it's not like she chose to whatever but that that movie was by Karan johar and his movies have always Blockbusters but they're all beautiful which is great yeah they're an Escapist World which is great visually it is it's a treat yeah it's a treat I'm like I mean you know when I was young our travel used to be Mangalore or mahabaleshwar so when you're watching Chandni and all that you're like oh my God this is how Switzerland looks I mean it's a it's a dream world yeah and in a way yes that's what Cinema is yeah and everybody wanted to escape to that absolutely but now today it's like you said about journalism you know one is there is this world created but today we are also talking about", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-42", "text": "this world created but today we are also talking about the realistic version of it yeah so when you decide to do these realistic Cinemas you don't want to do the escapism cinema I keep telling some of my directors give me an item number oh I cannot imagine you doing that but that'll be a blockbuster because how can she do this yeah no but um look it's not about what kind of Cinema it's about the sensibility of your director it's about the script for example uh you know we did this Anthology where there were four stories it was on Netflix and uh I did one of the stories uh which was produced by Karan which was directed by Kaio it was called ankahi and yeah he wanted me to look like a quintessential heroine I've never dressed up in like you know like he wanted me to look like that but the story was so real and so raw and the emotions between these two people they were real so there could be a person who dresses up well", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-43", "text": "so there could be a person who dresses up well you know I know a lot of people who dress up well uh and at the same time I I know myself who doesn't like dressing up unless there is something but you get into this film industry at what point did you feel that message which was not falling into the Norms of the industry like I I played a mother very very early in my life that kind of finished my chances off okay finished there's no way in hell did you regret at some point of time shouldn't have done that no at that point of time shefali at the age she was at the time she was she thought it was right there's no point looking back and saying I find it a waste of time that's how you get with life too yeah so tell me when you um when you're done with these kind of roles and because most of them are emotionally draining and you can't probably just switch off so when you come home do you how do you how do you", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-44", "text": "come home do you how do you how do you unwind what do you do like to uh to just leave that behind and be you know when I'm doing something I am very obsessed with it I love it so I'll come home I'll have a shower I remember when you were doing DC uh after I packed up in the car I would text the first ad and say give me my scenes for the give me the scenes that we're going to do tomorrow uh of course I'd refer to only my script like on set I say don't give me sights I don't want sites because I'll only refer to my script because it has all those notes Etc but I would come back shower I mean if I was in Bombay if I'm doing something else I come back I shower I have dinner with my family it's not like I won't have a conversation but then I go back into okay doesn't just it doesn't just mean the scenes I'm doing tomorrow it means where have I started to lead up", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-45", "text": "tomorrow it means where have I started to lead up to this hmm you know so almost the entire script but it's not done sequentially you know no it's not no that's why you need to keep referring back and forth is that like is there a dissonance like you're doing something which is end and then you're doing something big no not uh if for me uh what I do is I you know like before exams used to make that little parchy just uh bullet points so in a film you can remember a two-hour film okay a film script when you're doing a show yeah like Delhi crime or human it's eight hours of film how do you remember it yeah but then I make bullet points after every episode it's done very scientifically I do it because I want to refer to the back of it okay you know where where did I leave it to come to this scene okay so yeah I mean that's it works for me so um the Prime Minister said that you know he told his uh his party", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-46", "text": "said that you know he told his uh his party and he said that do not make these kind of lose comments on films and things like that now where that comes from is it comes from all the trolling that's happening with the Bombay film industry um and everything is now becoming something a controversial topic whether it's the color of a song it is the uh whether it's something is vulgar not vulgar sanskari not sanskari uh everything has to be politically correct some feel that this is because course correction was needed and some feel that this is the time that we are living in where everything comes under scrutiny what's your take I think everything you do comes under scrutiny uh course correction is needed but we live in a democratic country everyone has a right to express uh Cinema is supposed to be taking from society or giving back to society yes there may be certain things and any form of art you know there may be certain things that you don't agree with what you like", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-47", "text": "things that you don't agree with what you like I may not like a book a painting but that doesn't make that piece of art terrible so what I can do is say I think I don't like it I don't like it but to say it is bad so it's terrible but it has a right to exist it but who decides it's terrible what I mean to say is that if I don't like it and I I think it's terrible so big deal don't watch it yeah yeah that way I mean it is exactly like this yeah you know because I may not like it but Others May love it yeah and you can't scrutinize and fight about everything you've got to pick your battles yeah I just feel we lose you know then the importance or the seriousness of actually raising a point goes down in the drain because you're picking points on everything yeah and it's also causing these Rifts uh in families among friends where you know you don't want to say something you don't want", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-48", "text": "you don't want to say something you don't want to be associated with something that's what is happening where people are just especially those who are in the Limelight are scared of being misquoted or of being typified do you feel that among your colleagues and all that that media because we're scared I honestly am not very close to my colleagues okay I have very very few friends to say so in the industry uh I have been after DC we got into this whole promotion bit actually and then got into this promotion but I never knew what it was before that and uh I've seen many people talk you know and there are some I totally admire like I admire Vidya yeah because she's very vocal she is herself yes she's not making a point she's not trying to say Gathering she is just herself yeah but there is a niceness of her which comes across yeah it's the same with you I don't think you realize it but you are also come across as a very honest", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-49", "text": "you are also come across as a very honest person who says what she believes in so you know I think then there is a mutual respect yeah you understand what I'm saying if I'm gonna sit on my high horse and make a statement because I have the privilege of camera to catch it then anyone's going to get offended and say you know then what let's give it back but if there is a genuinity and a niceness to what you're saying then people are going to be like point of view they're going to be more lenient I feel I just feel so and also like Vidya I've seen ranveer he is himself yeah he's just himself yeah a little over the top but that's his style but he is not pretending yeah he's genuinely like that yeah he is so warm he's so boisterous he's so expressive you know I remember meeting ranveer after we did and we met at an award function He Has Lifted Me Up On Stage that is ranveer he", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-50", "text": "Me Up On Stage that is ranveer he didn't do it for effect you know that is who he is and then there are somebody is there are people who can be extremely measured which is also what I respect yeah you know like there are times when I'm going to go for an interview uh and of course my husband's given up on me on that one but he says please you know and I have like a lot of times he's a very private person he's he's a very um sorted he's from the brain I'm from the heart you know he's sorted he's calmed he evaluates it's he's very uh that kind of a measured person I am like but I've also understood like and move on and move on it's really move on yeah and uh but I I had an experience when I said something and it was taken out of context and it hurt people at home oh you know where I felt fine I feel like this it was taken out of context and it's going to hurt people", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-51", "text": "out of context and it's going to hurt people I'm not going to do this I have to be conscious to not do it yeah you know I can explain to my children they'll understand Mom said it's no big deal but I can't expect my parents or my in-laws or the elders in my family to go with this stride it's not fair yeah yeah and so tell me does uh you know does criticism trolling does it hurt because you know we we journalists get it too and I've interviewed several journalists and um they said that yeah was it fun to be trolled no to to interview yeah somebody from the same field that is so cool it is and usually it never used to happen no journalist didn't interview journalists yeah right because um I'm still I I mean actually if I think of it I I don't remember no it never used to happen so now and they even if it happened it was regarding an incident what do you have to say about uh like I said", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-52", "text": "do you have to say about uh like I said Putin visit or right Boris or whatever you know like Obama visits what do you have to say about this Riot or that Riot and you know it was like that but here we were talking about our lives and uh discussing things which like we cover an incident we forget about the incident and then we move to the next incident we criticized by people that you're not there's no consistency you forgot that you know whether it was the upahar cinema right so many times she calls me up and she said you are one of the few who continued to report on that but you've done this wrong so correct it you know and then I correct it what time it was yeah the family calls me up and we do that and it that has gone back almost what 28 years or something like that so if we were talking to each other many of us like get trolled and because everybody says have a thick skin is it possible it's not possible Right it", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-53", "text": "skin is it possible it's not possible Right it hurts um well honestly I have to I have I feel blessed because I get a lot of love appreciation and respect yes there are going to be people who don't like you but then TK um yeah I mean you don't like me fair enough it's your choice also when people who matter to me have a point of view I will take it seriously but if I'm going to sit and take every single person's point of view and debate it then I'm silly I'm wasting my time and energy and I cut like you know we discussed earlier art is very subjective yeah what you may like I may not and you're absolutely entitled to your opinion I can't let it like put me to sleep when we criticize you for a role or they criticize the way you you essayed it or they the the look that you had your your short your tall your thin your fat you all those things though they don't hurt you when those", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-54", "text": "those things though they don't hurt you when those come out um very rarely I get it so I'm blessed but uh finally I have to fall back on my director and my vision that is where the film started that is where it ended if my director is happy with what I did the way I looked the way I did a scene or said a line or didn't say a line then I've done my job yeah because it's his story it's our story you're entitled to what you feel about it you don't like it fair enough because actresses are subjected women actors are subjected to a whole lot of how you look I mean Vidya Balan said this I think it was Vidya Balan who said this also that when she put on uh wait for that uh one role that she did and after that it was always this that oh my God look at the way she looks she's overweight and look at the way she dresses nothing that she would do if she would wear anything other than a", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-55", "text": "would do if she would wear anything other than a sari she came in for a lot of reflex yeah yeah right so it's the the amount of energy expended on how a woman looks uh continues to dog women actors I agree also it's the pressure you know of what is beautiful and that's been going on for a hundred years I mean supermodels are anorexic yeah now we're talking about you know uh beautifully endowed women as models otherwise it was always thin tall Fair straight hair now everyone can't be genetically blessed you know I'm not and not even tall I'm told that there were some actresses who were made to you know stand at a lower level while Romancing the hero who is made to stand on a pedestal because the heroes were not as tall are you serious yes so it's funny so the shot would be the kind I've seen it also in fact where the shot would be and I found it ridiculous that's very funny yeah it's just but it's so amazing that", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-56", "text": "yeah it's just but it's so amazing that how how difficult is it to accept forget about wearing elevator shoes imagine shooting in a particular manner where the woman looks taller and she is yeah if women are subjected to so much of scrutiny imagine the man's self-worth that he's yeah and did this image of what is Right visually the man is taller than the woman yeah you know but the beautiful woman minus the man is tall and like you said even men are put through that scrutiny yeah oh you're not Beyond five seven yeah you know so it's all the time and it should have moved after the 70s it should have oh no 90s kind of highlighted it no yeah everything was beautiful yeah yeah everything was beautiful the man was he didn't cry he fought he saved the woman uh she was the one who needed this damn cell in distress she needed rescuing yeah he took care of the family he took care of um is that kind of a film was to come to you", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-57", "text": "that kind of a film was to come to you you'd say no immediately uh where I had to do nothing yeah besides look pretty yeah because what did I go there and do look pretty but that is my hair makeup styling uh doing so that's why it didn't come and what is pretty huh you know what is pretty Vidya looked like hers like that character in dirty picture yeah I've done a film called once again you know which is and I think Tara is beautiful yeah she's not wearing makeup she's wearing crumpled cotton sarees she has her hair tied in a Judah but that's who the character is and she's beautiful in her place I mean if you ask me to pick between Tara and Nila Mera I would pick Tara any day but maybe it's also because I am like that yeah you know for me dressing up is a huge effort it's a huge effort okay and recently with the promotions and all that so it was like a culture shock for me", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-58", "text": "that so it was like a culture shock for me I was like earlier I have I wear jeans and shirt that's it and earlier though I used to have a uniform I would wear jeans white shirt or white that was the end of the story some people have started calling me a style Diva and I laugh the loudest but if you see me otherwise I'm in pajamas and tone t-shirts I'm in kaftans at home and that I'm very comfortable I'm not trying to make a point here yeah I'm very comfortable but I cannot deny what my team has bought to the table okay you know when they look earlier they would never think of me as Glam huh but now they do so now when uh we trying to end the conversation I still want to ask you about the other thing which uh is talked about a lot because you are you've come from totally an outsider you're not you're not somebody who is Born Into the industry uh you're acting with a whole bunch of people", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-59", "text": "uh you're acting with a whole bunch of people uh you know who whose dad uncle aunt everybody has been in the industry and this accusation of nepo kids um it's real I think it's not fair but we never talk about that there are a lot of families whether a doctors in generations and their child has chosen to be a doctor we don't talk about that you know uh my skin doctor for example it was always the senior dog and then his kids are also following the same uh specialty so now they're a part of that clinic and they all together work we never pick that up um it's one of my charger has a bookstore which has gone down into the family we never talk about that now how well it does depends on the person who's taking over it the same goes for work if my son today wants to be an actor and I have the ability to give him that platform why won't I but then after the first second film he's gonna have to do it on", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-60", "text": "second film he's gonna have to do it on himself yeah and how good he is so I think it's really unfair um yeah I I get what you're saying uh but what about the accusation that this there's a clique which will not allow a non-connected I I don't like the word term nepo kid but a non-connected person to rise that they will ensure that uski picture [Music] release now see that is a whole business politically political business strategy manipulation all of that and yes there are people I mean I'm not justifying it yeah I'm not justifying it I believe you have no right to put anyone down I have no right to put anyone down on this set right now I do not they are doing their job it is at par at equal I mean honestly if if anyone messed up this won't be as sure you know as smooth and fairly important absolutely so I do not agree in putting anyone down give them that new chance yes but then there are a lot", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-61", "text": "that new chance yes but then there are a lot of directors who do not come from this industry who who are Outsiders but they have their actors again who've come from outside and say you know we have a comfortable zone of working yeah and they'll yeah so does that mean that is a click yeah but again yes there is a click you work very early in your career with Manoj bashpai and all who were total Outsiders like you you know and not even from the city they came from Bihar and you know from uttar Pradesh and places like that you worked with them so was there a kinship among you guys that we are The Outsiders I never thought of it like that okay there was a kinship okay and you have that with all you all those who you work with absolutely if you can't have fun on a set okay what's the point I'd be miserable if I went to a set where there was negativity or there wasn't camaraderie and his job is it to bring that", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-62", "text": "camaraderie and his job is it to bring that about is it actors or is it the director every individuals purely okay and everyone is a part of it okay everyone of the entire filmmaking process absolutely absolutely and do you pick only those kind of places where that comfort factor is there because if it's if it's not that's not your work Zone but you know you don't figure it yes that is what I would choose and I've been lucky but if you have worked with let's say a newcomer or you haven't worked with a director or an actor How will I know unless I'm there yeah and then it's just like okay nobody's ruled about Themis Nobody Does that uh okay we are not best friends but take care okay as far as we're gelling as far as we have chemistry as characters as far as we can communicate and as far as we all come from the same thinking that filmmaking is a much bigger thing than just yourself then we're on the same page okay last question", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-63", "text": "then we're on the same page okay last question I have to ask you this that uh mental health it's my favorite question with everybody who's in the creative field that to keep yourself mentally healthy uh how important is it for you as a creative person and uh what would you say to youngsters getting into this high stress uh and I say high stress simply because your output has to be quite a bit out here and it has to be creative so what do you what would you recommend to youngsters uh unfortunately it's not just for Creative people but for everybody it probably comes into the Highlight because we are in Limelight uh it is as important or probably more than your physical health no as important uh asking for help acknowledging that there is a problem or something as simple as problem hair and I can't handle this on my own so asking for help and I mean professional help you know I'm hoping that at least today we're moving away from the fact that we it was looked down upon yeah it was silly", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-64", "text": "it was looked down upon yeah it was silly it's absolutely silly I mean if you have a skin allergy you go to a dermat right yeah so if you have something you can't sort out in your head then it's only fine to go to somebody who you trust who you respect who makes sense and it's extremely important and not running a person down when they're talking about a problem yeah if somebody is saying you know I'm feeling really low just have a coffee have a piece of chocolate let's go out for dinner it might help yeah for all you know that is the solution but if it's consistent then you need to acknowledge okay listen there is somebody is reaching out yeah the moment you rubbish it then you've put a wall against that person so that person can't even reach out yeah and to believe do you think it's time that people like you uh Vidya Balan and Nina Gupta and the others who have faced um who have faced that Autumn at times", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-65", "text": "faced um who have faced that Autumn at times of not getting films uh or I won't use the word rejection because that's that's harsh but rejection also would you Mentor younger uh it's is it time to Mentor younger girls or younger men also uh to explain that rejection is a part and parcel of the creative process uh I don't think there is a guidebook to life I can say it but I can say it today with age and experience what 16 or 20 year old will feel will feel and I can give all the Gyan in the world but until that person realizes it on his or her own it's not going to ring through but you know there is the fact that I am here today you know when people call me an inspiration I don't know what they're inspired about but I think it's a belief okay some years ago if you saw a 45 if you thought a 45 plus year old woman was going to come into her peak in her career and start leading it would", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-66", "text": "her peak in her career and start leading it would be it would have been laughed upon but she's doing it you know over there is doing it on energy is doing it and there are so many actors who are doing it so many actors and actresses so it's it is reassuring it is reassuring and you know recently um one of my nieces uh she's a 20-something kid and I got nominated in best actress for one of the big award functions of one of big Awards and um and there are all the top a-listers in that and I got nominated for best actress for Darlings and she said do you know what this means to so many girls that you got put into otherwise it would have been supporting actors supporting yeah but just the fact that they have no option but to recognize you it means so much that you don't have to be conventionally beautiful you don't necessarily only have to be young you don't have to do what is expected of you all the time you can make", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-67", "text": "is expected of you all the time you can make your own you can be your own person and you can create a space for yourself and there is ample space for a lot of people yeah so just by living the life that you have led becomes uh somewhat of uh an inspiration and uh understanding that it's not the end of the world if you don't get a film or if an actor is not marrying you the reason I'm saying that is because of the suicides that one is hearing and it's heartbreaking to see young girls uh you know their lives just ending in their 20s just because yeah that pressure and that's why I'm saying that mental health and taking care of it and talking to people is extremely important extremely we have not given it enough due even as parents one needs to read absolutely that just because your kids are laughing around and absolutely yeah absolutely I mean I I believed everything was fine and there was a patch that I couldn't handle it you know I was", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-68", "text": "patch that I couldn't handle it you know I was just realizing that I was becoming a bitter person I was not uppity Etc there were a lot of changes happening around me and I chose to see someone and I still see the same person because what I would do earlier is if I'm feeling down I'll go and see somebody yeah today I go and meet him because everything is good in the world and you can I just came to say hello to you you know which is great and when he started treating me he said it very clearly I don't want you to be dependent on me yeah I cannot change your thinking I can just be a sounding board to you you have to reach that point and your family is supportive when you do this like well honestly even if they want they didn't have an option I love that but I have that space yeah I have that luxury of space to decide what I am doing not a lot of people have it yeah and I really wish we created", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "95a510604f8a-69", "text": "people have it yeah and I really wish we created that environment where it's okay to not be okay yeah oh my God yes yes thank you so much for speaking your mind speaking so clearly and being such an inspiration to young actors wishing you all the success thank you you too absolutely my pleasure thank you for watching or listening in to this edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste click here to watch the previous episodes foreign [Music]", "source": "l-mVt26nvIE"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-0", "text": "it's really important to put the South China Sea in that Global context it is if you like everyone's business it's so vital to International connectivity to Maritime trade countries both from Southeast Asia as well as China would like to push for intensifying the code of conduct negotiations however we've heard that before most recently in 2020 and nothing has come of that in 1990s when the U.S visible from Philippines they take the mysterious if you develop an economic dependence on China then you're in trouble uh in the long run whether that's Australia or whether that's countries elsewhere in the world China's narrative that it is the United States and its warships or other Naval powers that are destabilizing the region those are us keeping helping to keep keep the South China Sea um open Japan possess the Counter-Strike capability and India possessive storage capability China cannot ignore other two sides at the same time foreign welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash this is a special edition which is being recorded at", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-1", "text": "this is a special edition which is being recorded at the rice Cena dialogue held in March 2023 in New Delhi our topic today is about an issue that could turn into a global flash point the South China Sea Quagmire principles or compromise China is in conflict with its Maritime neighbors and there is an impasse which can negatively impact all of Asia before I introduce the guests here's a short explainer the South China Sea is one of the busiest waterways it has several small islands and the disputes are over the claims made by China Philippines Malaysia Vietnam Taiwan and Brunei over these waterways that date back almost 70 years the disputes have affected Maritime trade as well as bilateral relations between these two countries the U.S is also involved in this dispute as it has Maritime security interests in this region what is India's interest in this dispute were where 55 percent of India's trade passes through the Straits of Malacca which opens into the South China Sea over to the experts we", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-2", "text": "into the South China Sea over to the experts we have today Dr Lynn Quark Shangri-La dialogue senior fellow for Asia Pacific security at The International Institute for strategic studies Singapore she's got a stellar academic career Lynn Quark is a visiting professor at Georgetown University School of Foreign Service and has held fellowships at Yale law school Harvard Law School Harvard Kennedy School and nus Singapore Dr satoru nagao non-resident fellow at the Hudson Institute USA satoru nagao has held numerous research positions in diplomatic and political field he's also been a security Analyst at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs Professor Rory Metcalf professor and head of National Security College Anu Australia he has three decades of experience across diplomacy and intelligence analysis Academia and journalism he's a serving board member member of the national foundation for australia-china relations at the Anu cyber Institute and an Australian representative on the asean regional Forum register of experts and eminent persons Dr Kwok I'll", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-3", "text": "of experts and eminent persons Dr Kwok I'll begin with you is it possible for China to break the current impasse in the South China dispute the covet years have not seen China showing any signs of accommodation so do you think that this impasse can stop now well I'm thank you first of all for having me on this show um on your question I'm not entirely confident in fact I'm not confident at all that the impasse can be broken there's been recent talks about how countries both from Southeast Asia as well as China would like to push for intensifying the code of conduct negotiations however we've heard that before most recently in 2020 and nothing has come of that and of course if you have to if we think about it these code of conduct negotiations have been in the making for some two decades now with very little to show for um I think there are several things that stand in the way of concluding a meaningful code of conduct which will help to if not break", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-4", "text": "code of conduct which will help to if not break the impulse but at least to reduce the impulse you know things like the scope of application of the code of conduct um you know whether it should apply to the entirety of the South China Sea is China with one so only in areas of dispute um you know the sort of dispute resolution mechanism whether it should merely be bilateral negotiations with China or parties would have um ability to have course to the mandatory dispute resolution mechanisms and the United the United Nations convention and the law of the sea so there are these stumbling blocks to concluding a meaningful code of conduct that said I think China has every reason to seek to help to reduce tensions um with its neighbors not given that its composition with the United States is fast heating up so I think it makes sense if I were China I would be seeking to reduce tensions with my neighbors especially since those tensions have allowed the United States to forge stronger ties with even erstwell with countries", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-5", "text": "to forge stronger ties with even erstwell with countries like Vietnam with whom it for two decades worth of a war so um I I think you know if China were thinking strategically about its position in the region it would certainly be seeking to break this impasse and stronger ties with its neighbors and even recharge relationships which had you know stagnated like say maybe with Philippines I'm going going to come to you uh Dr nagao you've studied and written about the role of quad and the closed ties between India and Japan um with regards especially to expansionist China why is there no coordinated strategy among Asian countries to resolve the South China dispute to discharge China's territory expansions we need to check the pattern of China's territory expansion there are three features firstly they ignore the international rule for example what happened in East China Sea is the example before the 1970s they haven't claimed uh island of Japan is their territory so since 1971 they realized how important and they start to say", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-6", "text": "they realized how important and they start to say they said claimed this is a territory but this is ridiculous view from the international law and secondary is when they find the power vacuum they try to steal it so for example what happened in South Genesis is the 1950s when France visual from this region they take the hakos para Sera Iran in 1970s when U.S research another half of the parasail island taken by China and in 80s it went Soviet troops withdraw from Vietnam the they take the sixth speech of the spiritually around in 1990s when the U.S withdraw from Philippines they take the Mischief leave so they are safe they when they find the power vacuum the spirit military balance has changed the spirit that is a pattern and the sad pattern is their effort is including economic effort to other aspect not only the military that is another effort so be a real right one example so to deter China stereo expansion on how to do that and yesterday their budget is increasing", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-7", "text": "to do that and yesterday their budget is increasing very high so to maintain military bonds we should increase self-defense budget that's true but China is Rich not easy so that's why another method is needed that's why quad that we can point it out to the China's expansion in South Tennessee if the class before country corporate China need to divide their budget the maruti direction against Japan against India against the Southeast Asian countries because corporations Support Services a countries by using the cloud framework and so that's why to maintain military balance built from the budget this Corporation is effective so China cannot move even in the South China seeks we cooperate enough that's why kuat in the South China Sea issue is combined long explanation thank you very much okay so that's kind of revolutionary or should I say that would make China more uh wary or even Russia more wary about you know have the quad getting military connotations uh Professor Metcalf I come to you you know Australia is seen as a kind of a middle", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-8", "text": "know Australia is seen as a kind of a middle power in uh and an ally of the US which has interests in South China see can it risk a conflict with China and um will it engage more for conflict resolution now uh especially with the quad as uh you know was said that the court has strategic interests now so will it become more uh involved in conflict resolution solution Luke thank you uh and I think that Australia's role like so many other powers in the world is one of a stakeholder in the security and stability of the South China Sea I think it's really important to put the South China Sea in that Global context it is if you like everyone's business it's so vital to International connectivity to Maritime trade Global Commons fisheries and also as a a laboratory if you like as to whether multiple Nations can resolve essentially territorial differences and I will come back to answer about Australia but just to note that um you know there are some there are some green shoots some positive signs", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-9", "text": "some there are some green shoots some positive signs look at Indonesia and Vietnam for example essentially agreeing uh on the demarcation of their EU said boundaries recently so there are law-based solutions if players and of course the big player being China were ever willing to actually count Nance where Australia comes into the picture is you're right as a stakeholder as an ally of the United States but also as an independent power in the indo-pacific and I guess I believe our government's trying to do multiple things here on the one hand you know we're asserting our rights as uh if you like a power that that um relies on the South China Sea for our own economy so rights of overflight Transit freedom of navigation are of great interest to Australia even if we're not doing traditional you know or conventional funnels but our air force does Maritime surveillance there as we've done for 30 or 40 years and we are interested in a strategic balance an equilibrium in the region uh where China can't be", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-10", "text": "equilibrium in the region uh where China can't be coercive or assertive at the expense of others but we're also interested in preventing escalation and I think that I I wouldn't necessarily call it conflict resolution because we're a long long way from that but Australia like so many other powers now has an interest in ensuring that on the one hand uh aggressive action is deterred but that in doing that we're not further destabilizing the situation so therefore there's a lot of talk now of guard rails of confidence building measures of risk reduction measures the code of conduct may not be the solution there because as we've heard it's moved at a glacial pace and and China has almost sought to weaponize those negotiations in ways that exclude legitimate Global stakeholders in the South China Sea from actually being in the South China Sea but there is I think A Renewed interest now in using for example Regional fora Regional groupings to set some standards to reduce the risks of conflict and escalation there and", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-11", "text": "reduce the risks of conflict and escalation there and that's something that I would encourage India for example to take a closer interest in um it's particularly irked of that Australia about August and uh it sees that it's born out of a cold war mentality uh some of the politicians are even making veiled threats uh against Australia um what is the perception in Australia is China viewed as a threatening power at all or does trades surmount everything else there are so many answers to that question there's so many questions embedded there um because I think the the long story of the australia-china relationship just as China's relations with many other powers over the past decade has been that uh you can't separate the economics and the security of the economics and the strategy if you develop an economic dependence on China then you're in trouble uh in the long run whether that's Australia or whether that's countries elsewhere in the world uh you mentioned the um the technology sharing Arrangement that's been uh labeled orcas but", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-12", "text": "sharing Arrangement that's been uh labeled orcas but that's really just one piece of a much larger Regional puzzle of balance so orcas is essentially Australia working with two very trusted Partners to build uh Stronger capabilities so that a stronger Australia can be a stronger partner to others in the region the fact that we're now considering building uh the kinds of submarines that China already has all over the South China Sea so don't forget that in a sense Australia like others you know whether it's India or Japan or others it's literally trying to catch up and balance and protect our interests of course that's lurking China because it's it's reinforcing the realization in Beijing that it can't dominate the region so it's going to play a very aggressive campaign of disinformation to suggest that somehow those reacting to China's military modernization are the destabilizers whereas the truth is precisely the other way around and to conclude on that point where the current Australian government is going I think is a relationship of", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-13", "text": "Australian government is going I think is a relationship of stabilizing ties with China but not walking back on any of the national security measures we've taken to protect our interests as a sovereign power and that includes developing uh substantial Naval capabilities such as through orcas uh Lynn I'm going to come back to you you're in you know um you're based in Singapore so not technically so close to the South China Sea problem but you know you've been watching the the whole quad uh fracas which happened here in New Delhi uh the foreign ministers meeting uh apparently the South China Sea did come up for discussion and the statement is indicative that the members kept reiterating that quad is not a military Alliance but Russia doesn't believe in that China of course will not believe that um and there are strong overtones about China you know the whole thing that they're saying we strongly support I'm quoting we strongly support the principles of Freedom rule of law sovereignty territorial Integrity peaceful settlement of", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-14", "text": "law sovereignty territorial Integrity peaceful settlement of disputes without resorting to a threat or use of force freedom of navigation overflight oppose any unilateral attempt to change the status quo all of which are essential to the peace stability prosperity of the indo-pacific region and Beyond these are all uh veiled uh you know may not be threats but signaling to China isn't it yes I think the short answer to your question is yes um I think there are implicit availed criticisms of China's behavior in the South China Sea in that statement um you know you you mentioned um the quad earlier and how it's perceived in the region I think the first point to note is that whereas when we first start um in the when the indo-pacific concept or strategy first emerged you know a few years ago countries in Southeast Asia were very hesitant to kind of go on board with that concept because they're worried about what China might think what it might mean for asean ETC um come the quad when that came", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-15", "text": "asean ETC um come the quad when that came along I think you saw countries um in a sense being more accepting of alternative I guess Frameworks or architectures or overlapping architectures for helping to manage disputes in the region or you know the balance the power in the region so for instance Singapore it said that the quad was to be welcomed if it if it brought greater peace and stability to the region and if it you know complemented asean's role in the region as well um and you had the Philippines foreign minister then um who talked about the quad um being welcomed because you know frankly um asean didn't didn't seem able of on its own managing the Region's problems and the Region's problems are many um it's it's China's behavior in the South China Sea the sort of um you know objections to valid assertions of Rights navigational rights and freedoms um that you highlighted in the statement it's you know the implicit threat or use of force to resolve those disputes um", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-16", "text": "or use of force to resolve those disputes um and it's it's encroachments upon the exclusive economic zones of various Coastal states in the South surrounding the South China Sea which really is the bread and butter or the fish and oil and gas which helps sustain the livelihoods of in many case is very poor Southeast Asian countries so so yes those statements uh that statement was in fact a veiled criticism of China's Behavior but um I think going beyond that I think we also need to think a little bit about how you know other countries might be contributing to instability in the region I I don't buy China's narrative that it is the United States and its warships or other Naval powers that are destabilizing the region by its warships I think those are us keeping helping to keep keep the South China Sea um open um by asserting lawful navigational rights and freedoms but I think there are certain acts that perhaps could be avoided you know like painting the current um geopolitical", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-17", "text": "you know like painting the current um geopolitical competition between the United States and China as having an ideological basis I don't think that necessarily helps improve the situation because it introduces more problems into the a ready mounting list of problems that the United States and China already face speaking of Warships like why has the U.S Navy sent Nimitz um it's one of the oldest nuclear part uh ships what combat value can it bring you know I think the us as well as other Naval Powers France um for instance or even other European Towers Australia Etc I mean they sent um various Naval vessels into the region perhaps sometimes to demonstrate um strength and resolve but also there's a symbolic value to these various um uh deployments I think it's very important um that the us as well as others sent Naval vessels to the region to highlight that they are merely asserting lawful rights and that are vested under the United Nations convention and the law of the sea when they apply the", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-18", "text": "and the law of the sea when they apply the um the the Waters of the South China Sea and um I think you know we shouldn't always be thinking about military might and and what you know a specific asset brings to the table in terms of military might we must also think about what it means the Optics but symbolically so when Europe or the middle Powers sent vessels to the region to support or promote the rules-based order I think that sends a strong message it sends the message that it isn't just about you as China competition what's at stake here isn't you know U.S China competition and the U.S seeking to dominate the region over China but it's also about just you know we're concerned about the rules-based order we're concerned about what happens in the region we're concerned that you know if there are disputes that's fine but let's have the disputes um resolved or managed in accordance to international law the guardrails that um before we mentioned earlier right", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-19", "text": "the guardrails that um before we mentioned earlier right uh Dr nagar I'm going to come to you um the Philippines is in talks to possibly include Australia and Japan um in Sea patrols with the US so one question on that and the second question is that you know the countries in the immediate vicinity of China they face similar kind of threat but I'm gonna I asked you this even in the beginning why is there no coordinated system to deal like a coordinated security system you talked about increasing military budgets but there needs to be more than that to secure these regions don't you feel coaster coordination is best but all these countries are so voluntary country independent country so they have their attitudes they have their strategy so coordination is a very tough job in this case of course United should show the leadership in this region for a long time haven't spoke system is a main system to maintain the balance haban spoke means that United States is Central and based on the bilateral Alliance and", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-20", "text": "is Central and based on the bilateral Alliance and between the U.S and Japan U.S and Australia U.S and the Philippine bilateral basis Alliance consists the whole security system in this case all of the information gets at the United States but Japan Philippines do not share the information Japan also really do not share the information even if they arrived of the United States so so in this case if the coordination moved we should establish in this case U.S lead or of the activity but United States need to deal with many issues in the world now so in this case they need to deal with Russia ukrana or they need to deal with the Middle East so the under such kind of situations United States asked to arise should share more security but in this region and Japan tried to reply Philippine tried to reply it so coordination has just started so under such situations this coordination has is improving but under process not established like a NATO because they have the wrong history but we do not have the wrong", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-21", "text": "the wrong history but we do not have the wrong history in this region in the indo-pacific that's why that coordination hasn't happened but improving that is my answer to your question I think right do you think that there is a hesitation in that that we don't want to become a NATO uh NATO because you can compare as a geographical area the nature of the European in America based Maps Europe is very so it is more easy to coordinate but in the Pacific very very big so in this case in this case the coordination is a very very big tough job so of course if we can establish this Asian NATO it will be a very effective way to deter China that's true China has uh China's era is only one North Korea the 3D base arrives on North Korea and Russia and the Pakistan they will be the partner but not United United States side 52 arise evenings will only count 30 pesos right and so coordination itself is very difficult but achieves some part of it not China", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-22", "text": "difficult but achieves some part of it not China the United States has achieved and this number of the coordination is decisive factor in the last three competition in the past the World War One the 32 buses four decided to win and World War II the 54 passes 54 wing and the cold war between US and Soviet in 54 wing and the 26 rules so in this case this number is very big important so that's why you are right the coordination of the many country is very important but because of this many countries it is not easy to active that's what happens so Rory I'm going to come back to you uh you know is this this Hub and spoke and bilateral uh security uh uh mechanisms uh will that work or is there possibility of a new indo-pacific security initiative coming up in the near future well I think I'd I'd reinforce the assessments of my colleagues on the panel here about the complexity of the regional security architecture there's no one-size-fits-all there's no uh", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-23", "text": "architecture there's no one-size-fits-all there's no uh there's no Regional NATO nor is the region going to solve all of its problems purely through the the well-meaning multilateralism of of asean or Asian Centric institutions there's I guess a multi-layered solution here or at least a multi-layered way of managing a strategic problem and the Strategic problem is at one level ensuring that coercion uh doesn't succeed that that might does not make right but also that stability can be maintained in the process The Hub and spokes model where the United States was the center of a system of bilateral alliances it still exists but it's evolving and we're now seeing of course the spokes being connected so a web Arrangement the quad obviously is is important and that but also the trilaterals Australia Japan the United States you know Australia Japan India Japan India the United States you can go on uh we're even doing things now with the French or with the Indonesians as well and so all of that I see essentially as", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-24", "text": "well and so all of that I see essentially as adjuncts to or supports to the um you know the alliance based system that is where deterrence resides deterrence against China resides through the U.S and its bilateral alliances but to manage stability so deterrence in the bilateral alliances soft balancing through the mini laterals um you know the three and the four-sided polygons but then stability can be reinforced through the multilateral and multi-polar nature of the region so you know the asean regional Forum the East Asia Summit all of these institutions that so far have underperformed and so far have not lived up to their promise but actually have strategic stability confidence building preventive diplomacy written into their mandates mandates which actually China accepted once upon a time we don't need to create a whole new indo-pacific security architecture and that may say sound a little strange coming from someone who's a strong advocate of the indo-pacific as a strategic system but of course a one-size-fits-all that brings in", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-25", "text": "but of course a one-size-fits-all that brings in all of the small countries of the region is going to be incredibly unwieldy it's the mini laterals like the quad that can provide the glue that connects the other parts of the system you know the qualities I think as we heard in this conference at Racine are a lighthouse I call it a kind of an island of trust and we've got to keep expanding that island of trust you know the quad engaging with other partners in development and capacity building and all the while keeping open the door for communication with China because in many ways there's nothing that there's nothing that's sort of accommodating or surrendering about having a a relationship of dialogue with China it's actually trying to persuade China that all of these other diplomatic arrangements are there for a stability that is actually I think going back to your point then in China's interest um so let's keep that message so what is the red line that that could make uh things difficult", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-26", "text": "the red line that that could make uh things difficult for China I would suppose they were to if the military drills that they're doing right now with Taiwan if they cross over if that happens then what because is is that a plan B right now what you're seeing is this um loosely held uh Hub and spoke model but what happens if there is some kind of a direct conflict then what happens so you're taking us to a a very Grim place here but you know after the Ukrainian situation you have to have that yeah no I'll answer the question I mean it is the it is the quick question what happens when you know literally the balloon goes up yeah uh in in you know in the in in the ugliest way possible uh well I wouldn't in that context I wouldn't call Hub and spokes loose I mean the uh the US Japan Alliance the US Australia Alliance they are serious alliances uh with mutual obligations and although I think it's difficult", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-27", "text": "mutual obligations and although I think it's difficult to speculate about what the deterrent balance or response would actually look like in a Taiwan conflict it would be formidable and the whole point of course is to ensure that the conflict doesn't happen in the first place so I would argue that um a U.S led strategic response to whether it's a Taiwan crisis whether it's an East China Sea conflict whether it's a South China Sea conflict you know there are so many flash points I mean there's and then of course we haven't talked about India China as well um that's one vital part of the deterrent puzzle but I think what isn't really well understood yeah he is what an immediate Global crisis a Taiwan conflict would be just as the Ukraine war Russia's aggression against Ukraine precipitated a global crisis even more so I think in the case of Taiwan you know so many countries would have to shut down their economic relations with China overnight which would be catastrophic", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-28", "text": "relations with China overnight which would be catastrophic for China and the global economy if we can weaponize that message ahead of time and that's a message to every Global stakeholder it's a message to Europe it's a message to to India and to others then I think we actually stand a chance of preventing that disaster you speak of in the first place right Lynn I'm going to come to you you know at the Munich security conference earlier this year the Indian external affairs minister said and I'll quote him for 45 years there was peace there was stable border management and then no military he's talking about India China and then no military casualties On the Border since 1975. that changed because we had agreements with China not to bring military forces to the border which is the line of actual control that we have and the Chinese violated those agreements he went on to stay say that the state of the Border will determine the state of the relationship and uh so how does the world see the", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-29", "text": "relationship and uh so how does the world see the India China border conflict we talked about Taiwan with Rory how does the world see the India China border conflict is it as concerned as it is with the Taiwan situation or with the maritime conflicts which are going on China's Maritime conflicts in East Asia and the South China Sea I think the suggestion in your question is a correct there's a correct one namely that the concern about the India China border dispute is less in the region um than it is say over the South China Sea um uh dispute give in Taiwan of course given I guess the geographical you just feel a bit more geographically distant from the India um China dispute that said I think it is a very important dispute um in so far as if it is resolved by force that undermines um the UN Charter against the use of force and more broadly undermined international law and so I think just as I have very strongly advocated that all countries should be", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-30", "text": "have very strongly advocated that all countries should be concerned about the Russian invasion of Ukraine I would similarly say that all countries should be concerned that the dispute over the Indian China border I think that too should be resolved in accordance with international law and countries should be concerned about that as well you know who owns what where I think that's less important so in the South China Sea my concern is less over the territorial dispute because countries can argue perhaps by showing evidence that you know one or another has a better claim over these features in this these land features in the South China Sea what concerns me there is that the maritime domain where there are clear principles under the United Nations convention and the law of the sea that has to be clearly delimited or attributed or Sovereign rights given under the convention so you know the adherence to the rule of laws that part of it is very important so perhaps countries you know do not need to take a position on who", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-31", "text": "know do not need to take a position on who has a better claim on the disputed border but they do need to take a strong position that you know international law should be upheld and there should be no use of force on that border Dr nagao I'm going to come to you final questions the same question which I asked how does the world and how does Japan see the India China conflict the Border conflict want that and the second question is you know since the wars Japan's military budget um it it hasn't increased so much as we saw now uh I think 836 billion is what the military budget is for the next fiscal it seems to indicate to us that Japan is is preparing for some kind of a conflict so tell us how that happens because you said military budgets I'm going to go back to that early point that you made that military budgets have to be stepped up in this region if we have to be pragmatic about the conditions that we have right now", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-32", "text": "pragmatic about the conditions that we have right now in Asia yeah that is a very good question I think um I repeat it research how to maintain military balance is the main point of the county China Stars that's true so how dividing the China's budget in the morality direction is a good way if Japan possess the Counter-Strike capability and India possesses the storage capability China cannot ignore the two sides at the same time Australia I will possess a submarine based cruise missile capability and so in this case China cannot ignore the attack from Australia even if the submarine is located far from China so that's why the cloud will work to maintain military balance if they possess the strike capability with the United States and all of the whole country will process the strike capability but at the same time to deter China's Invasion to Taiwan or China's expansion and territory in the South China Sea indeed other aspects is also needed for example [Music] something like that because other countries will not react it so that's why", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-33", "text": "because other countries will not react it so that's why we should not rely on the trade with China should diverse or we should not rely on China anyway in this case data is also needed that's why TPP the ipf this kind of the economic framework you suggest or Japan tried to indeed character tpps not American project no Japan despite America said first time and another method is also the international status of Taiwan in Taiwan is independent country yes no one doubted indeed but China said this is not so we need to write their status in this case it looks like when the China in Bay Taiwan in this case everyone see this is Invasion this is a violation of the international in this case many countries support Taiwan so China expects such kind situation and gave up to invade that is the ideal situation for us um and China's Invasion so in this case the contribution of the India is very important and the Japan in Japan why they focusing on National Security strategy now is because there is a", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-34", "text": "on National Security strategy now is because there is a possibility the situation will appear the China can invade Taiwan soon that's why we must be tight we cannot ignore Taiwan if the uh China start to embed if the Japan will not allow the United States to support Taiwan automatically China can win in Taiwan we think that's why Japan cannot escape from the situation we need to support us we need to support Taiwan so that's why the Taiwan crisis is emerging we must do something we must do something but in this case India's role is also very important in this when we check the India's diplomatic activity to what I want indeed India is rising taiwan's status in internal stage the data started in 1995 to start to start re-established a development condition with Taiwan uh informal and the two since the 2008 when we checked a public document of India that we cannot find any word of the one China policy so so India's in the survivors foreign minister he pointed out in 2014 if China asked", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-35", "text": "he pointed out in 2014 if China asked India to adamito and China policy Asia China should accept one India policy and this means China gave up and accepted this is in this territory so that is the right thing because yes India's crime is a legal one right one that's why so India's right but in this case India's activity activity to Taiwan rise intensive status of Taiwan and prevent China's Invasion to a Taiwan I think so that's why India's role is very important I think I should stop it wrong explanation no that's right uh Rory I'm going to come to you uh one the same thing you know which we discussed how does the world view the India China conflict which uh you mentioned early the second one is that you know uh asean region you mentioned the asean region now for almost 10 years whenever I would go to cover the asean uh Meats I would always see that you know there's this consensus actually that that America that erosion of America's strength in the asean region had", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-36", "text": "erosion of America's strength in the asean region had started taking place in the india-pacific region uh and the Dynamics of you know I think America got involved with their own issues they were not paying attention to what was happening in the indo-pacific that kind of changed with quad to some extent and uh you know with uh with President Trump um China kind of capitalized on that that ignoring that America did correct me if I'm wrong on this is it too late now uh for the American involvement has the horse left now there's no point bolting the door good questions there's a lot they look on on the uh the India China relationship um I think it's it is important that the International Community focuses much more on this I think the uh really the violence uh in Golan Valley in 2020 was a very very bracing moment internationally the the dockland uh incident in 2017 likewise and speaking personally I would like to see more countries really openly um recognizing uh I guess that India has uh", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-37", "text": "um recognizing uh I guess that India has uh has really been the target of quite an aggressive position by China on on the border and and supporting India more more openly now I don't think that the quad is going to turn magically into a military Alliance I don't think you're going to see and I don't think India want you know direct Military Support if you like the front line on on the disputed Border in Himalayas but there's all kinds of indirect support that the court and other partners should be giving to India at every stage of this dispute whether it's in uh you know whether whether it's in capability whether it's in intelligence whether it's diplomatically and likewise I think that's they're the kinds of expectations we would place on India if there were crises in in East Asia going to your question about asean and and really the broader region and the American role here you know I think that the um the death of America as a decisive power in the indo-pacific has been", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-38", "text": "a decisive power in the indo-pacific has been prematurely announced many times and I think now is another of those occasions uh I think what the Biden Administration is demonstrating is that America is back in a comprehensive way and importantly it's not only in a military sense it's also improving from a low base if you like geoeconomic engagement but it's improving it and of course there's a big base if you think about private sector American Investment in the region which is massive so we need to somehow mobilize that for the strategic competition America will stay in my view in the indo-pacific the United States is serious about competing with China it cannot compete with China without playing a strategic role in the world's pivotal region and I think both sides of American politics Now understand that so the friends of the United States and allies we just have to help shape and moderate that role in ways that support stability as well as deterrence and there's a role there for asean", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "9a304262199b-39", "text": "deterrence and there's a role there for asean I think the asean institutions that we speak of there while they may underperform in some ways have maintained levels of dialogue levels of internal balance and stability within asean and really now is the time for those institutions and leaders within those institutions to step up and send concerted messages to China that it can't dominate this multi-polar region right thank you so much gentlemen thank you Dr Lynn thank you so much for explaining this very complex uh issue about the South China conflict thank you so much thank you so much thanks thank you thank you for watching or listening into this episode of a i podcast with Smitha prakash at the raisina dialogue namaste click here to watch the previous episodes [Music]", "source": "OGre6xeskvg"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-0", "text": "when a member of their Community assassinated gandhiji What followed was also wrong and it's never talked about which is this massive rioting against the maharashtrian Brahman Community saw workers brother Narayan was dragged out of his house and stoned to death the revolutionaries remember are modernists after Independence the revolutionaries were deliberately pushed out of the National Power structure the single most important event that led to Indian freedom is the naval Revolt it is unnecessarily foisted on the uh Indian Muslim most of them are descendants of Indians not of turkey Invaders mughals did try to make their way back and Babar is absolutely clear why he came to India he came for the gold he says so himself Dyer was actually given a sarupa in in the Golden Temple now that is bad in itself but when you go there you realize that the jallianwala bagh and the golden temple are 300 meters apart idea of khalistani movement interestingly even today comes from exactly those same", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-1", "text": "movement interestingly even today comes from exactly those same gurudwaras that had been infiltrated with Hawkinson 100 years ago the BBC program that was recently done very controversial one what is interestingly that much of this is actually done by people of Indian ethnic origin India is a rising power and so many of the deep State and corporate and geostrategic interests um will want to trip us Namaste Jain welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is noted historian and Economist Sanjeev sanyal Sanjeev is very active on social media and he's a hot favorite at litfest where he talks about Indian history its biases which he says are nehruvian Colonial and Marxist in nature his critics say that he placed a majoritarian biases but there is no doubting his scholarship he's the recipient of the Eisenhower Fellowship named young Global Leader by the world economic forum and adjunct fellow at The Institute of policy studies at the nus Singapore fellow at the", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-2", "text": "policy studies at the nus Singapore fellow at the Royal geographical Society London visiting scholar at the Oxford University and because Sanjeev sanyal is member of the economic advisory Council to the prime minister of India and help prepare six editions of the economic Survey of India there will be a few questions on the state of the Indian economy but first about his book revolutionaries the other story of how India won its freedom Sanjeev thank you so much for coming on the podcast you've done a whole lot of TV interviews about your book um you know I had on the podcast Jay said Deepak and Vikram sampath who spoke about how Indian history was one-sided now most of us the only source of history as such was that what we read in school textbooks and now all of you are coming out a whole bunch of you are coming out authors um telling us that our history narrative narration which was there in our textbooks was one-sided was colored and you're coming out with these stories", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-3", "text": "was colored and you're coming out with these stories making us rethink that you know why weren't we told about all this earlier why was our history so colored so biased so first of all thank you very much Smitha for having me on your show um why did I write the book uh well it's a multiple uh factors yeah obviously one part of it of course as many people have guessed many of the characters on the book are directly related to me so I had some interest in those characters I knew some of them incidentally many of them lived into the 1980s but I think the real thrust of why I went into this is somehow the story of India's Freedom struggle never quite added up and yes you did hear you know there was a you know netaji did this and bhagat Singh did that kind of thing the odd um anecdote but you always got the impression that never quite added up to anything so at some point in time I began to investigate it myself I'm", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-4", "text": "time I began to investigate it myself I'm a curious sort of Chap and a completely different story began to emerge out of that um as I said it's coincidental that I am also related to some of these people and they told me anecdotes but I never quite made sense of them till I really read this began researching this book so um you do mention about the sanyal family you put photographs also in the book um and like they said you say that they spoke to you many of us but not when your children you know like grown-ups telling you that oh we did this oh we did that and this is what your uncle was don't pursue it further but something must have motivated you that no I've got to you know go dig deeper into this because it's so well researched you've gone to libraries you've actually gone to those locations you've been to the jail cells some of the things that you write about the torture in the jails and all it's", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-5", "text": "the torture in the jails and all it's very it's very moving it's very disturbing even and the number of things uh you know like the plots that you talk about uh in fact there are many times where somebody came late you know they were supposed to escape and then I wonder if if only we had cell phones in those times sending location okay this is where I'm going to be and just have pick me up and I will escape in so many things that happened that went wrong wrong so tell me when did you decide that okay these distortions were there uh somewhere there are gaps as you say when did you decide okay I'm going to pursue this so I didn't consciously think about this start with do you remember that before I began researching this I was already writing books so I had already written a bunch of books and at some point in time just out of curiosity I was also reading some of the uh these characters I some of these incidents are mentioned even in", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-6", "text": "characters I some of these incidents are mentioned even in uh ocean of churn for example not in detail but I mentioned them along the way so at some point I had gathered enough material that a picture began to emerge for example um I began to get a bandage even sachindra sanyas by autobiography into English it's not yet been published it will come out hopefully end of this year but in the very preface of that he says I'm the reason I'm writing this book because I feel that uh a few chapters of Indian history uh will otherwise not be truthfully written so there is this premonition he already has that the story of the Revolutionary somehow uh you know swept under the carpet and or Mr presented and he felt that he had to write his own testimony and so when I read that it felt like oh my God uh he's almost speaking to me uh saying that you you know you need to go out there and write our story uh and you you've written about", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-7", "text": "and write our story uh and you you've written about both sides of your family yes uh in a part of the freedom struggle tell us about that so um both sides of my mother's and father's family were in the freedom struggle both of them uh related to the uh revolutionary the armed struggle part of the freedom struggle so my father's family they're Bengali but they had settled in Varanasi uh in the late 18th century there's still a neighborhood there called Bengali Tola and they were very famous Vedic Scholars and over time they intermarried with a wider community of sanyas and lahiris and others who settled in that area you may even have heard of Lahiri Masha who gave modern kriya yoga it's modern form he is a great great great grand Uncle of mine so so they were they were living there and what they did was interestingly they ran a Vedic school and an attached akara and as I tell you in the book this network of akadas across", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-8", "text": "you in the book this network of akadas across India really became the driving force of the initial and some of the I.E the Revolutionary movement so uh just a small explainer to uh guests who liver our listeners who live abroad what is in Akada and uh how how what was the connection with anushilan so akadas are essentially gymnasiums you can call them but they are quasi-religious gymnasium so they're not secular places you hang out there and just do weights they were they have existed since ancient times in India these networks were very important to resistance to foreign invasions in the past whether it's the Turks the mughals the Europeans and so on and they had been basically defanged in the course of the 19th century by the British um and sort of taken away from the Quasi religious military role and increasingly sort of secularized into uh sort of the gymnasiums of sports clubs what srirobindo does is he he just he he understands that this", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-9", "text": "does is he he just he he understands that this is what's happening this is the this is the turn of the 19th or 20th century first decade of the night of the 20th century and he says that let's convert or sort of revive this network and use it to fight the British and so akadas are called different names in different parts of the country north India it's uh it's called akara but for example in the southern tip of India it's called akaladi or an Assam it's called so there is a network of these across India and has already always existed uh young men Sometimes women as well went into three zakaras and you know they still exist in in more traditional parts of our cities and and Villages more like an artistic form in many places right like yeah but it was not history directly the artistic thing it was a real place to learn real martial arts for War and the reason we despite these uh hundreds of years of foreign occupation there was always some", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-10", "text": "hundreds of years of foreign occupation there was always some resistance going on had a lot to do with these akadas okay and the connection with anushilan samiti anushul and samiti basically is this is the name by which by the way the revolutionaries call themselves and why do they call themselves a strange name because Anisha and samithi literally means the discipline committee that's because this is all this is actually a network of these akharas where these young men Sometimes women as well would basically meet each other and these revolutionary ideas would spread so this is what the Revolutionary movement called itself anushilan samiti and of course my family were involved in this akharas both so this is my father's family as I said in the Varanasi they're running Bengali Tula which means it's basically a Bengali school they're still a Bengali Tola into college there set up by my family and attached to that there were these akharas which they also ran so this is one branch of the family", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-11", "text": "also ran so this is one branch of the family and this Branch included people like Sachin the Nathaniel of course Very famously but many of his cousins Brothers the whole family were involved in this movement and some of them are mentioned in the book yeah some of them are hint too I I actually didn't mention everybody because then it would begin sounding too much like a family history um so that's my father's family and they were then thrown out of Varanasi and all their properties were confiscated around about 1927 by the British by the British as a result of the um the kakori conspiracy sent off to kalapani for the second time to Cellular jail to Cellular jail but um what happens is that my branch of the family ends up in uh what is now prior garage but then and of course there is a link to um what happens then uh in allahabad as well it becomes a hub of uh revolutionary activity can you also talk about the the that it was so", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-12", "text": "you also talk about the the that it was so traumatic that nobody ever from the sanyal family lived in Varanasi again or something like that to them no it was not so much dramatic we've just thrown out so we didn't have anywhere to go back to so nothing okay but it that whole process when he was sent to Cellular jail was difficult absolutely difficult because everybody's just uprooted to throw down and then different people made their way another Branch went off to gorakhpur by the way so and so on and so in some sense uh that family then sort of dispersed this one part I'm going to come to this which I had taken out and you know it he says nonetheless sanyal's main concern was to find I'm reading it out uh nonetheless sanyal's main concern was to find a way to free the remaining political prisoners from yes so then he goes and he says he met with Madan mohal malviya gave him a patient hearing but didn't offer", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-13", "text": "gave him a patient hearing but didn't offer any concrete he gets disappointed sanyal gets disappointed then he goes to meet jawala nehru in gorakhpur after hearing him out nehru commented quote at a time when we are planning to go to jail you want us to help others come out of prison this comment stunned sanyal and then he goes to Lala he met la la offers unconditional support so here was your ancestor who is going Pillar To Post trying to get people out of cellular jail because he had experienced it whereas the others who were the moderate so-called moderates they hadn't experienced that trauma absolutely so Sachin sanyal basically he you know he's my grand Uncle not my grandfather he comes back from cellular jail he is then one of the things he wants to do is to free all those people back that he's left behind by the way he describes how he felt somewhat guilty of being actually freed yeah the survivor's gift yeah", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-14", "text": "being actually freed yeah the survivor's gift yeah so survivor's guilt and he comes back and he's trying to explain to people that look Cellular's jail is not like any other jail they are literally torturing people on a daily basis to break them they're working them to Deaths they are electrocuting them they're just behaving atrociously with them this is not like being sent off to the luxury wing of 90 jail or something like that where you have books and books and you can listen to parrots yes and you know or play badminton and other things this is a serious Place uh where you get tortured on a daily basis and then he suddenly realizes that nobody quite gets this that you know cellular jail is is a totally different uh ball game as a prison and so he's trying in that passage he's trying to basically incite some sort of a movement to try and free all these other people uh but nobody seems to listening to it finally in 1920 goes to", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-15", "text": "to listening to it finally in 1920 goes to the nagpur session and where he is able to yeah uh sort of uh make a call for freeing some of them and not particularly successfully because I think savarkar it takes several more years for savarkar to be allowed to return to the mainland many more years before he's actually freed yeah and so on so that savarkar uh what you write about savarkar is also very moving the torture that he faced and all I mean so many have written about uh you know what about savarkar's life but every time I read something it it's a new facet to the man anyway we spoke about your dad's side of the family let's go to the mom's side of the family now so my mom's side of the family my mother's father's family interestingly their sort of uh they were the the surname is chakravarti and my great great grandfather uh was a gentleman called mohini Mohan chakravarti Mohan chakravarti is a revolt", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-16", "text": "Mohan chakravarti is a revolt against the British was actually to set up a cotton mill and in in this is following East Pakistan this is now in Bangladesh uh in a place called kushtia uh it was it was at one stage one of the largest Mills uh cotton Mills in Asia called mohini Mills how is it a rebellion it was a rebellion because he actually set it up um as a part of the uh attempt to create indigenous Industries uh following the 1905 uh uh swadeshi andolan now why I want to make this point is quite interesting is you see the word swadeshi has ended up being utilized as uh later on by gandhiji to as some sort of a return to the past to a pre-modern uh Utopia but the original idea of sudeshi was actually to be modern rapid modernization and so there were many uh Indians but specifically bengalis who went out there and began to sort of attempt to create new modern uh Indian Enterprises so mohini", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-17", "text": "to create new modern uh Indian Enterprises so mohini Mills was an attempt to do exactly that and he was very very successful it's a different matter it fell on the wrong side of the border and then so this is another interpretation of certain Concepts yes that that had a very linear explanation as far like you said about swadeshi that it was we were told in our history texts in schools was that it was this go back to the Simplicity of wearing unstitched cloth and weaving your own uh cloth but it wasn't that absolutely no it's exactly the opposite opposite because the original proponents of this line of thought by the way they all linked to the Revolutionary movement because the revolutionaries remember are modernists uh they are not attempting to go back to uh feudal India and the old ability or whatever it is they're entirely about moving forward to a Democratic Republic and they're all about modernizing a savarkar or SRI aurobindo or you Sachin Sanya they're all modernizers", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-18", "text": "or you Sachin Sanya they're all modernizers and so this too is a form of rebellion and then there is also my mother's mother's family which is even more closely linked to this whole thing is my great grandfather nalin akshasanyal and his brother anadi kanta sanyal they were members of the anushul and samiti and then specifically because my mother's mother's family ah they were okay so this chakravarti and sanyal yes and they're not related they just have the same surname okay uh and he they came from Nadia by the way um so uh there is a there's a village there still called so they came from that Village and the village boys and they they were academically good so ended up in Kolkata and uh [Music] got involved in an attempt to take out the Kolkata intelligence the police intelligence service led by a gentleman called tegart and so they carried out a bunch of assassinations and anadi kanta got captured he was beaten to death in", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-19", "text": "kanta got captured he was beaten to death in wrongpool jail and then died from his injuries uh nalinaksha of course carried on for some time being a part of bhagatin's uh juganthar group and then later on he would be brought into the Congress by c ardas um but he always had this sort of uh linkages through to the revolutionaries and that's why he eventually also became very close to netaji because netaji also had that sort of tilt so the the book has a whole lot of this thing you know these conversations and these linkages that you talk about um in an era where they were communication was so hard it was so hard because there were no cell phones and there were no telephones um so of course uh all that was in there and then the intelligence network of the British absolutely you talk about how you know everything there were informers collaborators who who just informed the breadth and then those guys were sent off to Cellular jail it was like oh okay they're", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-20", "text": "to Cellular jail it was like oh okay they're going if they were lucky they were otherwise hang the front dead hanged and shot dead yeah that part is very disturbing to know that there were these collaborators and I can sense uh you know reading it that there's come another book coming on these collaborators so tell me about that when you were researching it did you did it come as a shock to you it came as a shock to me when I was reading it but when you were researching it it didn't come as a shock I mean as I said I grew up in an environment where some of this stuff was always murmured around so uh and so you know I would be told that so and so person may be a great guy now but this is his real history so that kind of thing so you know I had I always had that kind of murmurings around me but what I have done here is as politely as possible mentioned a few of them do remember that many of", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-21", "text": "mentioned a few of them do remember that many of them and their descendants are still leading uh lights of our current Elite so I didn't want to unnecessarily provoke that as and and sort of take the conversation too far in that direction and they become controversial for a different reason uh but you know fact of the matter is that after Independence the revolutionaries were deliberately uh pushed out of the national uh past structures narratives and everything so I have to come back to what you're saying what you're saying is that the revolutionaries their contribution was erased and the collaborators they are still part of the elite in India now absolutely okay elaborate please so what the interesting thing is India becomes independent uh it becomes independent because of a number of uh sort of efforts it included various branches of the Congress Congress was not just a monolithic party even the revolutionaries were inside the Congress in many places and of course the Revolutionary movement there are many other movements as well but at the time of", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-22", "text": "many other movements as well but at the time of Independence however the revolutionaries first of all did not have any senior leaders all the senior leaders had been killed or had died for very variety of reasons or gone missing as in the case of netaji in addition to that remember what happens to them the two provinces that provided the most revolutionaries Punjab and Bengal actually get partitioned uh Lahore very important Hub of revolutionary activity Dhaka and East Bengal so all these revolutionaries far from thinking about grabbing par in Delhi are you know sadly homeless so they're rushing around their properties are being taken the women are being raped their houses are being burned down so they have completely different concerns and then one branch of the uh congress party ultimately consolidates power which is the nehruvian branch and in the 1950s they I have to say and this this is not just about you know the human uh sort of uh thing about trying to increase the importance of your own", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-23", "text": "thing about trying to increase the importance of your own contributions uh the neruvians go out of their way to actually Wipe Out the memory of other branches of resistance to the British particularly the revolutionaries so for example the cellular jail was almost entirely pulled down it's or the bits that you see today are just two radials the rest was pulled down and even these two radials were almost pulled down uh just in order to remove all systematically remove all places of importance and memorials to the revolutionaries but why they were not in they were not uh they were dead gone no but the movement was still there it involved hundreds of thousands of people I mean do remember the revolutionaries were capable of winning elections inside the Congress in the 1930s against the gandhians the gandhians were of course this moderate extremist bit yeah that's been going on for a long time yeah or so they could have uh the problem that they faced was they had no unifying force so they got", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-24", "text": "was they had no unifying force so they got scattered across from the left to the right uh the Communists on the left to the RSS on the right and and many many branches of the Congress themselves so what happens is that the nehruvian branch of the uh Congress essentially comes to power and they need allies and who are their allies are the existing power structure made up of the collaborators they so suddenly the same people say uh the Imperial Police Service officers who were ordering firings against uh Freedom Fighters suddenly they are the people who actually get promoted up when the British leave in fact in many cases the British don't even leave so it's up to 1950 they become part of the Civil Service you meet they were part of the Civil Service in many cases to start with the Imperial Civil Service was mostly made up of Indians by by the 1930s and 1940s yeah uh same as the Imperial Police Service that ordered firing in Mumbai uh during the naval Revolt uh were", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-25", "text": "in Mumbai uh during the naval Revolt uh were mostly Indians uh and and all the contractors and others who were part of the uh British establishment they actually were beneficiaries when the British left because they all got promoted up yeah and you talk about that you put pictures also of that Naval reward not many people know I incidentally um trivia but I was born there in Navy nagar and and nobody tells you nobody tells you that the single most important event that led to Indian freedom is the naval Revolt of 1946 there is a very small memorial to it and it's only 19 in 2022 that the Navy actually celebrated it uh with a flotilla with a float in Republic Day yeah so what happens is that the collaborator class do you remember that the at Independence they are panicking because in every other country like in Indonesia and other countries they are usually evicted out of the power structure naturally they were the people who were drained the swamp yeah drain the swamp", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-26", "text": "were drained the swamp yeah drain the swamp but in India what happens in the name of continuity and maybe one can say there was some need for continuity but what happens is they are allowed to continue and in fact they get promoted because as I said as the British leave and and also the British don't always leave uh till 1958 the naval Chief is British that's why even after Independence um the Navy Navy flag continue to have the cross-ups in charge so these things continue so those past structures continue and of course they have already they are they are incumbents in many ways and they they know English uh the the so they have also the links with uh outside world as well so as you say there was no truth commission there was no incommission there's nothing so these guys continue in fact they go out of their way to push out people who are um not from the ilk so the intellectual class the first two generations of intellectual class in India or the elite other than some people", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-27", "text": "class in India or the elite other than some people may from the nehruvian Congress to be fair the nehruvian Congress had contributed to the to the freedom struggle but other than them the the the hangars are around just shift from collaborating with the British to collaborating with the new nehruvian Elite but the nehruvian elite is of course just one branch of the Congress it's very small so the rest of the elite actually come is drawn from the new Elite is actually drawn from this collaborator class have the Garden Way fizzled out or do you use no they're all they were they are still around in many ways they are they are still around uh it it requires uh just uh very little scratch the surface scratch the surface a little bit of Googling will tell you the ancestry of many of these people so it's okay uh so uh we leave that for your next book Sanji but you know you were talking about how the revolutionaries kind of melted away uh because their properties went", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-28", "text": "kind of melted away uh because their properties went away with the partition you know there's not much of documentation about the trauma that happened with the East Pakistan there's a lot about the West Punjab and the East Punjab Division and the trauma that happened there but not much of literature which is there or popular films and things made on that but there was that too you talked about how they had uh you know the trauma the the in your epilogue you know I read about the PTSD part uh post-traumatic stress disorder many of them had and there was this one part where which I'm just going to read out some parts of it where you talked about um the Maharashtra and brahmana Community yes was assassinated then it Unleashed a wave of mob violence against the Brahmin Community across Maharashtra estimates vary but thousands of homes and businesses were burnt down and hundreds were killed you know when I read this uh Sanjeev I asked several friends of mine and all", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-29", "text": "I asked several friends of mine and all did you know this many of them are married to maharashtrians many of them you know have I come from Bombay we've lived among nobody knew about it it's not because they were ill-informed or anything it's just that it wasn't there in the school text so then it's also also what happens just with Partition family they'll tell you partition families tend to say very little about the moment of partition because it's such a major trauma too they very often don't tell their children what they went through very clearly or very passingly they will mention it because they want to wipe it out of them yes so the same thing happened with the Maharashtra and brahmins another community that provided a lot of revolutionaries incidentally yeah uh and um when a member of their Community assassinated gandhiji and I'm not condoning any way that was the right thing it was a wrong thing to have done but What followed was also wrong and it's never talked", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-30", "text": "What followed was also wrong and it's never talked about which is this massive rioting against the Maharashtra and Brahman community where um as I said hundreds were killed thousands of homes businesses Etc were burnt down um some workers brother Narayan was dragged out of his house and stoned to death I mean eventually died it was a congress mob it was and this is why it is important he says that uh a large mob of congress party workers turned up at the home of Narayan Rao savarkar dragged him out in the streets they beat and stoned him mercilessly before leaving him in a pool of blood and then he said and then you write about how they went looking for vinayak savarkar at his house in the other this is dead by others also but it's it's still you know disturbing where he was staying with his wife yamuna and son vishwas on the first floor as the mob stormed into the ground floor they were delayed long enough by a", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-31", "text": "ground floor they were delayed long enough by a couple of supporters to allow the police to arrive this likely saved the family from meeting the same fate as Narayan Rao and then you write about PTSD and having suffered years of torture in prison and then partitioned many former revolutionaries suffer from what we today call post-traumatic stress disorder and then you write about now I want you to I mean this was of course that he was so severely tortured in cellular jail that he almost lost his mind uh he talks about repeated electrocutions and when those electrocutions were happening he was thinking about Leela yes so I'll tell you the story now tell me the story about Leela because it is heartbreaking was the expert bomb maker in the first generation of the anushul and samiti and after the alipur bum case um 1909 1910 he sent off to kalapani now as I told you cellular jail wasn't just any old jail it was designed to break people and", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-32", "text": "old jail it was designed to break people and there were hundreds of these revolutionaries and they were systematically put Through Torture mental and physical now after several years they obviously Alaska that's Health broke down and he was severely ill at some point in time running high fever and he simply refused to run the oil mill which was one of the ways they would force physical labor on them and so the jail Warden and his accomplices you know said no he's just putting on an act uh which is odd you could always tell if somebody is running high fever anyway so they drag him off and they begin to electrocute him the time to a chair and they are electrocuting him and he's screaming and the rest of the jail can hear him screaming and by the way this is deliberate because he's being made an example of right so it's not like the the British want to hide this they want the rest of the prisoners to hear and and he keeps through", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-33", "text": "the prisoners to hear and and he keeps through the electrocution he keeps collapsing so they wait for him to revive and again put him through this and eventually he loses his mind from after days and days of going through electrocution he loses his mind the other prisoners by the way go on hunger strike and so on and so finally when the news of all of this begins to leak out the British authorities decide okay we let him off but he's lost his mind so they send him off to um to Madras now Chennai to a mental Asylum to uh recover but it takes many many years to recover now why while he's doing all of this do remember what is happening what is keeping him sane the image of Lila so who is Leela Leela was his college sweetheart who is the daughter of bipinpal another very famous leader so he's the pal of the Lal Bal and was his classmate and they were engaged to get married when he was arrested on the", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-34", "text": "to get married when he was arrested on the alipur jail case and so throughout all this torture he sees this drifting image of Leela in front of him and that's what sort of keep that's the only thing that keeps him going through these years of uh first torture in jail then this electrocution this this period of mental instability and all of that and so he comes out after many many years when he recovers enough and goes looking for Leela and of course he finds that which year are we talking about we are talking now most Independence no no they are still well in the independence maybe okay maybe in the early 1920s so he goes off looking for uh Lila and Lila of course had waited for him for many years but he had gone off to Cellular jail no Communications she was unaware of all the tortures he went through she was unaware what happened to him afterwards and so after waiting for many years she then decided maybe she had", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-35", "text": "waiting for many years she then decided maybe she had died or whatever and she had married somebody else and was living in Bombay now Mumbai so um Alaska that is obviously you know sad but what can he do so he sort of drifts back and he you know he still rejoins the Revolutionary movement after all of this gets arrested does various things and then at the time of Independence uh and partition he's living in his village in East Bengal in East Pakistan and he becomes a refugee so when he sort of becomes a refugee and he moves to uh now Independent India somebody tells him that Leela is now a widow and is paralyzed from waist down so he hunts her down in Bombay and finds a takes him with her to a Sam silchar where his family or he sets up his home new home and marries her and then looks after her till she dies wow So eventually he did marry her what a love story right I mean absolutely and you", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-36", "text": "what a love story right I mean absolutely and you could not have made this up yeah I mean if if I did this in a movie it it people think it's just not believable but this is a true story I know so I you know in the beginning of the book uh when you mention him and you said that more about their love later so I was like where is this going to come in and then it comes right at the epilogue it was very touching uh there's also the story of Bina Das tell us about that before I go to kamaka tomorrow Bina Das was uh one of the daughters of uh Benny madhav Das but who was by the way the teacher of netaji uh and one of the reasons you went in the nationalistic uh sort of Stream So now bidad incidentally used to practice uh shooting in what is now Hindustan Park area in Bali in Kolkata with my great grand mom that's Daniel's wife and they is to shoot regularly and and then once this", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-37", "text": "they is to shoot regularly and and then once this comment tell me for women to go for well I doubt that was common enough but I do remember these are not common people they are clearly they're they're they are both uh sanyal and binadasa's father were both linked to the revolutionaries they were not and and you know so they they were they were probably routinely handling various kinds of guns and bombs that's what I was going to ask you know how did it work for these women that the reason I'm asking stories because of that that like you know I mean my mom will say what time are you coming back what time are you going but these women were going about you know well I can tell you my great grandfather was was not quite uh uh ordinary person I mean he was himself involved in in uh you know various revolutionary activities that they wanted their women also they didn't put their women in uh you know at the back of the room and say confidently since I knew", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-38", "text": "of the room and say confidently since I knew my great-grandmother okay who we used to call mamuni she was quite a formidable lady she was I was like five foot nothing but uh uh possibly the only person was afraid of she was quite uh quite a character so so it's not completely out of character that she was out there practicing shooting with binadas but anyway Bina Das then goes off on uh on on graduation day uh in Calcutta University uh uh he she pulls out this revolver and shoots five bullets at the governor of Bengal and Mrs but she's arrested of course and sent off to jail for nine years um my great-grandmom of course would claim that if she had been the one shooting it she would not have missed now that is of course Very troubling idea because if that had happened I may not have existed either yeah that's true yeah that's true I'm gonna read out this one portion uh when we talk about The Gather rights", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-39", "text": "one portion uh when we talk about The Gather rights you know you say this that the whole episode you talk about the komakato marrow and you know bringing the the uh Grand sahib on the you know he carried it on his head and things and you said that the whole episode send shock waves you know because of what happened then I'm not going to go into the details about that what that kamaka tomorrow incident is you can people can Google it and read it if you have not read it before you write about this and you say that the whole episode sent shock waves uh across India and the diaspora in Canada a group of gadarites decided to kill those they suspected of working for British intelligence one by one their bodies were found this included Arjun Singh uh then there's Bela Singh uh then you talk about Uma singer gadarite pulled out a gun and shot him dead meba was immediately arrested condemned to death Bella would survive a couple of more", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-40", "text": "death Bella would survive a couple of more assassination attempts in Canada uh before being killed in Punjab later tell me about this whole gadarites and what happened then and their links uh you know the links of what happened in that period to the origins of the kalistanis in Canada so all this while we were talking about the revolutionaries within India but do remember the revolutionaries were spread all over all over the world they had links to foreign governments like the Germans the Turks the Japanese to other Freedom movements like those of the Irish and they were operating in places like uh the west coast of Canada and the U.S California and British Columbia and in in British Columbia and uh and Canada uh they functioned through a network of gurudwara's like in India they are functioning through a network of akadas in North America they were functioning through a network of gurudwaras where they were a group of nationalist Sikhs Punjabi is more generally but specifically Sikhs", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-41", "text": "Punjabi is more generally but specifically Sikhs who were sort of pushing for Indian Freedom they were providing financing they were personally willing to pick up arms and move to India and doing all kinds of things were going on and remember the context as well a significant proportion of those fighting in the first world war for the British cause in Europe were Sikhs so this was not a just you know another just yet another community that was involved in all of this so there was this simmering tension and the and of course the British intelligence yet again was fully aware that you know this was a dangerous thing from their perspective so what they did is interesting they got hold of a secret agent called Hopkinson and Hopkinson began to infiltrate these gurudwaras in British Columbia and he was given a huge amount of resources to essentially find out loyalist Sikhs particularly those who were willing to use these resources giving to create first a wedge between the Hindu community and and and and the", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-42", "text": "between the Hindu community and and and and the more hardcore seek community and so if till that point in time the hindusik community was basically indistinguishable it was more a spectrum than than clearly separate and so you see that begin to happen in um in the UK but more importantly in Canada and so of course the gadarites were aware that this was going on and so they began to shoot out shoot the these informers and British agents in in the midst and there are these gun fights in the gurudwaras ultimately what happens is that Bella Singh who was one of the collaborators he panics and he shoots a bunch of uh gatherites inside a gurudwara in British Columbia and he's captured the British cannot hang him and punish him because he is one of theirs so they do a short trial and everybody knows that Bella Singh is going to be released at the end of the show trial so the court happens and Hopkinson turns up to give", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-43", "text": "court happens and Hopkinson turns up to give testimony on his behalf while he is about to do this another Sikh gather right pulls out a revolver and shoots him dead and then he also attempts to kill bilas it doesn't manage anyway meva Singh is captured he's hanged sadly nobody remembers me was saying in India but he was you know he basically in my view should be celebrated he died in Punjab much later no maybe he was hanged he was hanged he was hanged belasing the collaborator collaborator he Bela Singh however found that it was too dangerous to be for him to be in Canada because there were all these guthrites Sikhs hunting for him he decides then that it's actually better for him to go back to Punjab which is actually safer where he can sort of disappear in the Woodwork among the general population but even there he's hunted down by the revolutionaries and killed um but what happens as a result of this is", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-44", "text": "but what happens as a result of this is that there is this um this group of uh British loyalists Sikhs who slowly take control of the gurudwara's uh uh with British support both in Canada and in the UK and this idea of kalistani movement interestingly even today uh comes from exactly those same gurudwaras that had been infiltrated with Hopkinson 100 years ago so this is the source of your Palestine movement so in case you're wondering why on Earth would Canada be the center of kalistani movement of you know of all places on Earth well this is the reason now also the UK as well same reason so there's a historical contextual yes connection between these absolutely and but didn't the gurdwaras didn't the people then want to weed away these uh elements in their gurdwaras no so this tussle continued as I said this is a brutal tussle but in the end I mean this this uh this tussle Still Remains and it's still there at your book release event", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-45", "text": "and it's still there at your book release event in New Delhi uh the home minister said that and I quote this India's independence is a collective result of efforts but one-sided narrative uh was imposed on the masses through education Legends and writing of history and he also said we have to extract history from the streams of extremists versus moderates and make it realistic what is realistic uh Sanjeev because the there are many who are saying that there's a lot of rewriting which is happening and it is pandering to a narrative now it's a populist narrative so my view is that look let the facts all come out everybody is allowed an opinion but you you're not allowed your own facts whatever I've written in my book are very easily verifiable I've given resources its references at the back you can check those out or you can go and do your own research you will find that they are completely and solidly backed by facts I mean you can quibble about the things on", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-46", "text": "facts I mean you can quibble about the things on the edges but the broad narrative that I have put together in this book is and on other books as well has never been overturned by anybody so my view is I am not saying that the peaceful movement led by Mahatma Gandhi had no role in our freedom struggle that is not the case I have therefore not called this book the alternative story I've called it the other Story by which I'm saying that look yes there was a non-violent movement but there was this other armed struggle as well which was an important part of our history we should know about it and all these amazing people who gave their lives fighting for uh our our freedoms so you know um what happens is that these the new interpretations which are coming out are digging up things which nobody remembers or it was deliberately done which you mentioned Jay said Deepak mentions Vikram sampath and many other historians the new age historians they are saying that", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-47", "text": "historians the new age historians they are saying that it was deliberately done what happens also is that religious identities come into Clash over these historic narratives now I can give you if it could be about the mughals it could be about tipu Sultan and now when elections come then it's it's resurrected again so was there a deliberate attempt that let's not let's put Band-Aid over all this because it's just going to cause well it you know putting Band-Aid doesn't help what was the history was history this is what the facts are lying about them doesn't help at all I mean just to give you an example there is no evidence that tipu Sultan was fighting for Indian independence I mean he was going quite happy to write letters to the Turkish Sultan asking for help so he's asking for you know help from all kinds of foreign groups and the people he was fighting were not only the British he was fighting the nizam he was fighting the marathas he was", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-48", "text": "nizam he was fighting the marathas he was fighting the traven core more than adequate evidence um that he was doing atrocities against fellow Indians very little evidence that he was fighting for Indian independence so if your purpose is to look for Muslim Patriots then let me put some others why not Khan right here's a man who gave his his part of the Hindustan Republican Association uh and was hanged for the kakuri case so the problem here is that if you really want to dig in you'll find all kinds of other things as well but this peculiar skewed narrative it doesn't really help because it doesn't convince anyone even a mild scratching of the surface of History shows you that these narratives are false it's like when they talk about mughals he said you nobody celebrates darashiko whereas not just that I mean we start with these utter absurdity of trying to celebrate Babar was Indian because he died here and did not take our money and go away", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-49", "text": "here and did not take our money and go away well he actually wanted to he couldn't find his way back to Central Asia he was rude road was blocked and for many generations after that the mughals did try to make their way back by the way an expedition was led even by aurangzeb when he was a prince to try and make their way back to Bukhara so and that they didn't come here to loot and plunder they came here to make this to civilize us or something but this is absurd you read tizuki Barbary I or Babar Nama in Persian and Babar is absolutely clear why he came to India he came for the gold he says so himself so you see what happens here is that two things one is this is false and it doesn't cut any eyes secondly what you have done here it and is that you have then painted the idea that the their Muslim identity overrides everything else and that somehow Indian Muslims of today must somehow identify with Babar because", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-50", "text": "Muslims of today must somehow identify with Babar because he was a Muslim now this is a very dangerous line of thoughts let me explain why this is exactly the mistake that Mahatma Gandhi did during the khilafat movement what was he doing he was basically asking Muslims to join the freedom struggle not on the basis of their freedom but on the basis of their isions Islamic Turkish uh Khalif Turkish Sultan who was also considered the Khalif so the point I'm making is that this this is a very slippery slope and I think it is unnecessarily foisted on the uh Indian Muslim I don't know who but most of them are descendants of Indians not of uh turkey Invaders but it's it's something that Pakistan did right when they were doing their history so they have done it so they have done this absurd thing you know they name their missiles after Gori and uh and so on now this is crazy because read your own history your own great great great grandfather grandmother were", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-51", "text": "history your own great great great grandfather grandmother were killed raped Etc by these people um so why are you celebrating this is a you know bizarre form of Stockholm syndrome um these are there's also this talk that because of these new narratives which are coming that Indian Academia is confused uh conflicted uh is the architecture of Indian Academia so weak that it can't take on these multiple narratives now well there was a longish period when uh it well there was sort of a ethnic cleansing of alternative narratives in Indian Academia interesting uh so and by the way this has happened around the world the world I mean the amount of ideological diversity even in Western universities is just uh you know ridiculous but you still have the odd a thinker who may not confirm conform uh and uh but in India it was absolute complete cleansing and this started from the 1950s you saw you know in the economics field for example you had the likes of BR shanoi I just", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-52", "text": "example you had the likes of BR shanoi I just pushed out because he didn't he wanted more marketing yeah you wanted to bring in this somewhat uh entirely socialist kind of thing so and you see that also in the history writing uh RC majumdar is pushed out uh from being the chairman of the writer of the official history his books were not available for a long long time yes so you know this this was done in a neat and clean way and since there were nobody in Academia over a period of time they completely cleaned it out the only way you will get alternative narratives now is from outside of Academia of course now new people may emerge over time but the you know I I and uh Vikram and Sai Etc always criticized you know but you are not a trained historian well if I was subjected to that training I would have been brainwashed basically what you're objecting to is that I didn't get subjected to the same amount of brainwashing that's maybe why", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-53", "text": "to the same amount of brainwashing that's maybe why I'm able to write outside outside of the official narratives but a massive system of brainwashing in the name of sort of historiography and uh and of course patronage systems in terms of papers and seminars and doctorates Etc was that Machinery was created that Machinery by and large is to a large extent still alive but what is happening is that outside of that controlled environment other narratives are popping up so now that we're talking about your other hats and how it's held against you so let's get on to that you're a numbers person yes so how did you why did you abandon that have you abandoned that no your regular job is that yes so tell me give me some Gan now on this Bank collapse which has happened how safe is Indian money especially of the startups and how can India prevent this kind of a thing happening here what's happening with the Silicon Valley Bank I'm presuming that's what you mean and and", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-54", "text": "Bank I'm presuming that's what you mean and and the other smaller Banks as we speak in the US um this is precisely what we were warning the world about including the us so you go back to the covet period and you will see a leading economists including some who have won Nobel prizes like stiglitz and Krugman and of course many NRI economists based in the west telling us go out there and spread helicopter money monetary and fiscal expansion it does not matter and so on and you will remember that many of us who were in government and myself personally we were continuously saying bad idea this is not a demand side shock to start with this is a supply side shock and pushing in all this uh fiscal and monetary uh sort of resources in in this massive burst is going to create bubbles so what has happened is first of all many you know many uh developing countries have gone under Pakistan or Egypt or Sri Lanka and so on but even developed", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-55", "text": "or Sri Lanka and so on but even developed countries I've ended up with massive debts and also this Rush of liquidity in then created all this dislocation in the uh in the in the Silicon Valley Bank as one example of it what happened they got a lot of money that they didn't know what to do with this so they put them I can't believe they did it very frankly they stuffed them into long uh bonds now anybody who has even done the first undergraduate class of any bond mats in their Finance you know in finance uh when they're doing their Finance course will know that uh any increases in interest rates will lead the bonds to crash and the longer the bonds the worse that crash is going to be I mean if they were forced to do something with that money maybe put it at very short-term bonds or whatever of short-term uh instruments of some sort so instead they put them in these 10-year treasuries and inevitably when interest rates went back though", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-56", "text": "and inevitably when interest rates went back though the prices of those bonds collapsed and there essentially they went bankrupt yeah now this is you know this is uh really toddler level uh mistake and I can't believe this happened but do remember that we were being advised to do this here in India and in some ways this is in a slightly different way is what we actually did do uh following the uh the financial crisis of 2007-8 uh we had gone out there and done this massive amount of lending and it had created bubbles um and it had led to all kinds of npas in our system which uh you know I was part of the team that went through it in 17 18 19 cleaning it up so what I'm trying to say here is that we were being advised to do things would would have inevitably led to exactly the things you are now seeing in the US and in Europe and other countries and the UK all of them now have extremely constrained fiscal uh systems they", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-57", "text": "them now have extremely constrained fiscal uh systems they don't know what to do because they've already committed so much resources massively uh over indebted inflation that is not in control they're trying to control it by tightening monetary policy but their banking system now cannot certainly take this tightening so yeah you know one of the important lessons here is never lose track of macroeconomic stability and you know in the in it's it and and the true test of economic character is being able to hold it together when you are under severe stress and I think we passed that test the true test why didn't the ratings agencies why did they give them a ratings and stuff like that the bank this is a common problem and this happened because of two reasons uh the first reason is often more uh uh sort of played up is that their incentive structure is to give everybody a very high rating because then you know the person who gets rated pays so you want to give them the best rating possible and so there's", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-58", "text": "to give them the best rating possible and so there's an incentive structure problem and there is a lot of debate about the agency problem incentive structures Etc but my view this is only one part of the problem the other part of the problem a more severe problem is that even if you sorted out all these Agency problems it wouldn't do anything is that frankly the future is unknowable so therefore what you need to do is to create buffers in the system in various ways and really look through their to their uh through their uh balance sheets and stress test them over and over again and that that is unfortunately not done very much so it's not the case just that the you know that the rating agencies are have an incentive problem many cases they genuinely don't know what's happening and so but that's their job that's their job but they don't do a good job of it and I have written extensively on why unfortunately we end up using taking these ratings way too seriously and hardwiring", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-59", "text": "using taking these ratings way too seriously and hardwiring it into a policy so now what happens in these situations is suddenly everybody's ratings go down so you have to force Capital onto it in the banking system that causes further tightening and so on and so forth so instead the ratings now become Pro cyclical so just when you need more capital is when you are having these ratings downgrades and even Banks which are otherwise fine will suddenly find that they have to tighten things up and when the whole system does this you actually cause the problem to worsen and it's in some ways negating what the FED is trying to do is putting liquidity in could it happen in India too well anything can happen but we have put in a lot a lot of trouble to try and create all those buffers over the years uh we you know we created the insolvency in bankruptcy court we we took the trouble of taking very large companies through that through the insolvency process we reinstated creditor rights", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-60", "text": "through the insolvency process we reinstated creditor rights uh much of this was painful in the year 1718 you will remember or even 19. you will remember there was a time you came to India that was the time you came to India and one of the first things I did was to look through uh the dirty dozen of these large corporations that have run up huge debts um and of course to do some by the way the term dirty doesn't uh was my application to the yeah to this I remember reading about it yeah yes so there were so the problem was of course that are uh back in 2015-16 our banks were stuffed with all this npas and the problem was that everybody said now oh my God what we're going to do with it uh we have this new insolvency in bankruptcy code and uh but you know it's never been tested so one of the conventional ideas of that time was okay there's a lot of this stuff that thousands of these npas you know tens of thousands of", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-61", "text": "of these npas you know tens of thousands of crores of uh uh bad loans Etc what are you going to do about it and the conventional wisdom was let's take a few relatively small cases through the system test it out and then we'll try the bigger cases now my view on this was look the complicatedness of a case is uncorrelated to its size okay okay you can have a very large bankruptcy but maybe a relatively simple case so rather than uh take a a small case through it why not take the biggest cases through it because we did some analysis in uh in the finance ministry and we discovered 50 cases accounted for two-thirds of the problem in fact one a dozen cases accounted for between 25 and 30 percent of the problem so resolve this first so yeah so my argument was look surely no matter how bad this insolvency and bankruptcy system is and how untested it is surely it could deal with 12 cases right so he then focused on just those 12 cases which as I", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-62", "text": "then focused on just those 12 cases which as I said we dubbed as the dirty dozen and these those were then then those cases did go through the um you know there was this one uh seminar this a reform agenda for 2047. yes in that you said that in the olden days of the Planning Commission the government was telling what the private sector should do was telling the private sector what to do but and I quote you said that's not how we think about policy making anymore and then you said that the role of the government is to provide leadership where necessary infrastructure were essential now is that the is that the goal that the Prime Minister has laid out till 2047 uh what is how are you guys working is this what it is minimum government uh yes so this is essentially a restating of the minimum government maximum governance point which is that it isn't the business of the government to run everything and unlike in the past you know wise men sitting in uh Planning Commission telling", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-63", "text": "know wise men sitting in uh Planning Commission telling everybody how they should live their lives the job of the government is to provide the playing ground but it is not to be for the most part a player it can provide the playing Ground it can create Regulators you can call them the umpires or referees it can prepare the ground it can maybe even sell the TV rights or whatever it is but actually playing of the match the government by and large in most cases does not have a role and that is a principle that we have by and large uh uh you know used uh uh in in the last 30 years of reforms that has basically been what we have done so since 1991 to now what has really been when we said reform and we said liberalization we meant roughly the same thing the reason is that the last 30 years of Reform was about removing the Indian state from the things it should not be doing and to a large extent this is now done I mean there are the odd things this", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-64", "text": "now done I mean there are the odd things this but you know the principle of privatization for example is not a matter of debate I mean it's now a matter of the Tactical Act of actually selling criticism comes with that right I mean yes everybody agrees privatization necessary Road sports we need right but then comes that accusation that when you're privatizing when you're asking the private sector to build your roads and boats there's crony capitalism which is happening no so therefore the point is you auction these things and do it and as uh transparent away as you have to and of course uh you know asking the state itself to do it does not remove uh rent seeking so that is you know rent seeking is a problem whether you do it by the state or Not by the state uh that's uh you know but there's the old card which used to say that when uh when panditji bit the navratnas there was no there was no I think you may want to read a little bit about", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-65", "text": "think you may want to read a little bit about something called the Mundra Scandal which happened in 55 which was exposed interestingly by his son-in-laws Gandhi and the then Finance Minister ttk had to resign so it is not the case that there wasn't corruption there was corruption right from the beginning in fact this is in an economic case there was corruption and uh even in defense deals the Jeep Scandal happened in 1948. so there was plenty of corruption about and it was much debated at that time but coming back to your point the last 30 years of reforms was about withdrawing the Indian state from the things it should not do the next 25 years still 2047. should be about getting the Indian state to do the things it should do and there are a whole bunch of things we need to do reforms in in order to do that first most important thing we need to do is legal system reform it's not a part of the executive but certainly Judiciary is an", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-66", "text": "of the executive but certainly Judiciary is an important part of the Indian state enforcement of contract delivery of justice is an important role that the Indian State needs to do but having 40 million cases stuck in the pipeline is not the way it's getting done so we have to this is a reform that has to happen of course you know there are in any kind of Reform there'll be all kinds of Dimensions about a tussle between the government and Judiciary and all these things will also happen but it's got to be done it's got to be done and the people of this country have got to demand it um yes they should also keep track of that the government does not you know politicize it and all that that too but you cannot now avoid it okay this reform of the Judiciary System whether it happens from inside happens because the government happens because of public pressure or some combination of the three or in par and you know preferably in part that all these three are in Partnership that", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-67", "text": "part that all these three are in Partnership that would be perfect but some sort of Reform of the judicial system has to happen Okay number one number two we also now need to do something about reforming the administrative system and the bureaucracy uh here too um you know every government around the world needs an administrative system a bureaucracy and so on to to basically run the country yeah the the general administration of the country so saying that over get rid of the bureaucracy eventually doesn't work every country has some sort of a bureaucracy the problem is that the Indian bureaucracy was created under Colonial rule and its purpose was not Service delivery but control right naturally there were small Elite ruling the country and now what happens is that we become independent this uh bureaucracy however becomes very useful as also the tool for a socialist system of economic planning and uh and running the government so we go from one control system to an even more control system where it needs", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-68", "text": "system to an even more control system where it needs licenses and permits and all kinds of other things so the bureaucracy actually rather become weaker actually becomes even more powerful now 1991 comes along and since 1991 the what has happened is that this there has been a roll back of the state so the rollback of the powers of bureaucracy but the reducing of the powers of the bureaucracies doesn't mean the bureaucracy has been reformed it's just given less Powers I mean you don't need to go to a gazetted officer anymore to get all kinds of things signed so he has been withdrawn or she has been withdrawn but they have not been reformed yeah so what you now need to do is to go through administrative reforms to get get the bureaucracy to think to be to be designed not for control but for delivery of service police reforms included police reforms are also part of this part of this okay generally getting the Machinery to be", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-69", "text": "of this okay generally getting the Machinery to be service oriented I.E today there's no point in complaining that the bureaucracy is not delivering but it's not designed to do this and no in no individual uh you know the major individual you know is Officer or IPS officer is particularly good and forward-looking Etc but that can't be the basis of this no yeah see we are all trying to improve the individuals not the system over the system does not does not uh so you know you you as an overhaul that absolutely you take how does a district get run it gets run by a district magistrate or District collector yeah average District registry is 33 years old 34 years old very Junior person has no experience in ever running anything Sunday's made the virtual king of that District yeah uh he or she is there for two years that absolutely has no chance of even finding out half the things that need to be done and inevitably he or she has made uh chairman of every third Committee in that district", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-70", "text": "uh chairman of every third Committee in that district and they probably don't even haven't had chance to even attend one meeting or chair one meeting of whatever that subject is so we need to for example make the district magistrator more senior role allow people to be there for longer periods of time and take this as this this is The Cutting Edge of administration right so there are many many things that need to be done okay so judicial reforms admin reforms that I mean I can keep going okay but these two reforms are absolutely critical getting the Indian state to deliver uh uh um the things it's supposed to do justice and then of course Administration which includes of course Municipal Administration other police policing and other things you know uh you're very active on social media uh sanchief so couple of questions which I have which came up you know which I've seen you respond also um this whole thing that you know these reforms will be carried out or these changes are being carried out because of electoral", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-71", "text": "these changes are being carried out because of electoral autocracy there's this term which is being banded I love a lot where it says that because the BJP has the numbers they are they are thrusting this down the throats of people with it there is no consensus in the country about these things so all democracy is supposed to be through majorities no um as long as a certain class had the majority in Parliament not necessarily majority of population voting for them and a majority in Parliament even if it was in Coalition they thought it was democracy when they get voted out for a variety of reasons this Elite now sadly finds that democracy isn't uh such a useful thing after all so and by the way it's not only in India many places in the world what's happening is that the idea of liberal democracy is that self-certified liberals mean right so whenever the self-certified Liberals don't win then it becomes some you have to create these oxymorons like electoral", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-72", "text": "you have to create these oxymorons like electoral autocracy I mean it's just completely absurd things and the idea itself is absurd so you know this is this is by the way is part of a much more systematic thing that we are seeing worldwide and I've written about this by the way I've written working papers articles about this how we are seeing systematically uh a narrative built against India whether it's by V Dem or eiu or Freedom House all of them by the way funded by nebulous private Charities such as the Roses open Society Etc and they have the same narrative filtering through systematically so this is also part of a a a global power game in which we are you know we have no choice but to participate but we have to be out there and keep questioning all these um Power we have to participate like why why because you see we cannot ignore these things so let me explain this many of these uh indices like you know the ones that I just mentioned these", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-73", "text": "like you know the ones that I just mentioned these institutions publish a whole bunch of things you know index on global Freedom index on Democracy academic freedom and so on and uh you will see India is always rated as low as possible so you know you have 140 countries really annoying yeah 140 countries ranked on Democracy India's 108 yeah yeah or we are rated in academic freedom below Afghanistan and Pakistan I mean just imagine so there's obviously not even a pretense of being objective about this whole matter so I began writing about this uh uh for some some time now and the response is also quite funny uh the V Dems director basically comes and doesn't doesn't respond to any of my criticisms instead says no no our things must be right because we use high maths and a supercomputer to work this out so why do you need a supercomputer all you did was took opinions of 25 people that's it I mean a survey of 25 people to decide on how the world should be ranked you've", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-74", "text": "decide on how the world should be ranked you've got to be kidding me so this is the level of operations that is happening but all this while we never call them out and a lot of people's viewers oh you know ignore them you can't ignore them I'll tell you why because you see many of these things yet slightly hardwired into real life things so for example or these indices by V Dam eiu Freedom House many others they eventually end up in something called World Banks World governance indicators now this in turn is 20 of the weightage at many of our Sovereign ratings and Sovereign ratings have an impact on on the trade advice on all kinds of things this is therefore a kind of power that is in a secondary way managing narratives is is used by these nebulous funders to essentially manage the world let's say and this is by the way being extended so don't please take this seriously there's something called ESG Norms you will see this everywhere from now on", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-75", "text": "Norms you will see this everywhere from now on it's called environment social and governance uh norms and there is a very strong Lobby worldwide trying to in in put these norms and indicators and indices into investment decisions trade decisions and so they will be used against us why um well because it serves various purposes uh in terms of you see India is a rising power and we don't seem to be listening to um you know Western narratives or at least or the Deep States in many of these countries and so many of the deep State and corporate and uh geostrategic interests um will want to trip us uh on on and we should expect this to happen but I'm just telling you that do not be blind to what is a very well oiled machinery and this is not just happening in these perception indices by the way have you talked about perception and disease but I will be in the next few days also publishing a working paper and how this happens even and hard data", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-76", "text": "paper and how this happens even and hard data so when you see the U.N population division uh calculating India's uh say um expected uh uh uh you know expected uh life uh um life expectancy life expectancy at Birth um or uh ILO is calculating uh female labor participation or who is creating a global standard for stunting and then it gets into all these Global hunger index and all of this yeah and of course freedoms no freedoms and all that perception so all those perception ones there is there's a lot of debate there's also Professor babonus who's also been raising this I've been raising it for years so there's at least some uh some understanding some pushback that these these opinion based stuff is dodgy okay but now but the hard data ones are also dodgy okay and I'm as I said I'm going to publish a paper very very shortly I've been writing about it in newspapers and otherwise but I'm publishing a working paper very shortly where I will show you even this", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-77", "text": "paper very shortly where I will show you even this hard data is systematically tinted and one of the sad facts is that our own data agencies are uh are participating in it by not applying their minds to many of these Global um sort of standards and so on there's no pushback from our own data agency so one of the things I'm trying to do is to get there be a much greater uh Consciousness in the government and in non-government data agencies in India that when you apply Global standards sometimes they are good sometimes they are not so good sometimes they're appropriate so it's not always that inappropriate but we seem to all there seems to be something very odd that of the many many of these indices which I went through you never find there being an error on the upside the error is always to the downside okay now how can that be possible yeah yeah so I think there has to be some investigation into the matter now some part of it may be uh simply you know not some", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-78", "text": "of it may be uh simply you know not some Grand conspiracy just that that that sectoral interest in that sector wants to exaggerate how big that problem is in that sector because they then get grants vote from the government or private sector or International grants by exaggerating the problem so that is one part of the problem certainly because I found that in many of these cases the people in that sector are aware of this but what but they don't seem to be there doesn't seem to be any great interest in correcting the error so you know uh Sanjeev I was uh talking about you know the many hats you wear now you came back to India in 2017 and there were many like you who you know came in 2014 and 2017 to be part of uh Mr modi's agenda or the bjp's agenda for India in the uh next decade or whatever they had their plans it reminded me a lot about when Rajiv Gandhi came to power he invited a whole bunch of young people", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-79", "text": "power he invited a whole bunch of young people saying come and be part of the India story Pakistani say that that happened when Benazir Bhutto came to power she also got a whole you know all these educated Elites of pakistanis who were working in England who were working in uh in the U.S saying come be part of the Pakistan story um did that inspire you in some way when um Mr Modi came to power that yeah you want to be here you want to be in India what was it that made you leave a relatively cushy job and come to India so let me say that India has a longest tradition of this by the way so they have at least in the space of economists so let me just stick to that part you saw for example Manmohan Singh is also part of that yes phenomena then you had a generation that happened around about the liberalization time a little bit before when you had monkeys and others who came so there was also that and", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-80", "text": "and others who came so there was also that and then later on you had briefly raghuram Rajan for example back but yeah so there were there has been uh history at least in the field of Economics of uh Indians living outside of India or leaving their jobs coming back and and carrying on here and being quite successful I mean one month and prime minister but some of them didn't stay and some of them went back like arvind subramaniam um Raghu went back as well so there's a you know mixed bag but the idea of people coming and participating in the India story uh is uh is a is a well-established one well before me uh in my personal case of course uh you know I've been very much uh aligned to a particular um way of thinking about the um India its economy and so on and of course the term right wing is bandied about and and I understand that it doesn't always exactly translate into the Indian context but for the for the lack of conservatives maybe maybe", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-81", "text": "for the for the lack of conservatives maybe maybe or nationalist or whatever you may want to call it anyway you know what I mean yeah so there is a group of thoughts which I subscribe to which aligns with uh certainly what Prime Minister Modi is trying to do and so I had actually met him even before he became prime minister when he was in Gujarat and of course when he he comes to power um I was uh you know I was very very happy and then at some point in time uh you know I I have the I had the opportunity of joining this uh uh Finance Minister jaitley's team and then I served under him as principal economic advisor then Finance Minister nirmala Rahman after him and then a year ago I then shifted to become Prime Minister modi's economic member of his Economic Council so that's been my journey I have to say it's been absolutely fabulous um I don't know what the others think about it maybe they have to put up with", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-82", "text": "think about it maybe they have to put up with somewhat idiosyncratic character but uh um I have had a great time you know I always like to know about the author not just about the book what leads you to write about Indian history you're an economist you you have a day job which is so exhausting because you're working on a you know on transforming the Indian economy um what is it that you do that inspires you what is it that you do to relax to give you ideas what what makes you what you are so I am believer in the what is in in basketball is called the full court press so that play the whole thing you know you know so I don't believe I don't have any silos on my head um you're not center right center left Center no that's an ideological Point silos in basketball yeah no that's a no no I play the whole thing so okay you you play forward back continuously it's a it maybe people find it more exhausting uh but in", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-83", "text": "maybe people find it more exhausting uh but in my head there are no silos there is no Silo between history geography economics Urban Design or any other space in life because these are actually pedagogical separations yeah monuments also so many times I've seen you've I mean you've taken pictures in your book it's yeah I've even published reports on uh yeah what we should do with management and so on so uh in my head there is no separation between these two in fact in real life there isn't any separation between these two um and so I think the fact that these subjects are taught separately uh that is just uh you know convenience of the academic system the real world does not uh function in silos at all and I don't see why they we should in real in the real world have these silos if if you have the processing power to deal with different things and you find them interesting do it but the perception about uh about uh the right wing if I mean I'm using that term I", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-84", "text": "right wing if I mean I'm using that term I know nobody likes it or the right and left but the perception about the right wing is you look they're not happy people they don't know how to relax they don't know so they they're you know very sanskari they will eat only vegetarian food they will not they're not urbanists you're an urbanist absolutely right so the entire idea you know that you are breaking that stereotypes uh well as far as um vegetarian food is concerned let me say that I am on record to say that uh I am a great lover of crustaceans okay as is well known but that's again stereotype no Bengali okay yeah so you know people uh so I I think people have these stereotypes so there's no particular reason to have them um you know I have also written books like life over two beers and you know what do I relax cricket cricket no not Cricket not Cricket no I you know I cannot understand how people watch test Cricket", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-85", "text": "know I cannot understand how people watch test Cricket this is really like watching paint dry if you want if you want to say that absolutely if you want to around on The Lawns for five days choose croquet okay we've got the most boring thing ever yeah the same thing as test Cricket if you want to make it interesting get rid of the pads and the helmets maybe I'll watch it otherwise please flat sport you want to watch yeah so I like martial arts I I am a black belt in Taekwondo I you know I like watching a mixed martial arts boxing uh you trained in martial arts yeah I'm a black belt in Taekwondo now that's something that your ancestors would love right Shooters and then now you have yeah so yes absolutely both both and Sachin sanyal were very much uh you know so very much so much for punjabis who think that bengalis are more into art and culture and have nothing to do with uh with martial arts and all and here you are", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-86", "text": "uh with martial arts and all and here you are so it's it's The Stereotype right so Bengali at least you know the stereotype bengalis have a punjabis they're not into culture but agriculture agriculture but that's not true a Punjabi music and poetry has a very long and Rich history yeah so the same thing is true of Bengal you know 100 years ago interestingly bengalis were known for being entrepreneurs today nobody thinks of that as being the case yeah my own family as I told you my mother's family were entrepreneur so so there is a there are there you know you travel a lot I've seen in your book that you you weren't just um you didn't just go uh into a library and do your research you went to all those places and you want to partake in the culture of the place like absolutely you've gone and you've you've tasted Cuisine uh somebody takes you to a restaurant in a place which you imbibe yes so it's not so much clear", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-87", "text": "you imbibe yes so it's not so much clear in this book but my earlier is even more so that I go to those places and I talk about what happened but even here I go to Raj bihari the bosses restaurant in in uh Tokyo and tasted the his recipe for example of chicken curry so my view here is that you need to be able to engage in it now there is also a personal angle to this I actually don't like writing where people don't realize this no after so many books no I actually dislike writing I actually like researching them I thoroughly enjoy researching all these books you go to places you do cool stuff yeah so I enjoyed that part of the thing and then humanize those people so much you know there it's not dry characters in your business yes and then you talk like you said about the curry yeah so I go and eat because by the way earned is living running a restaurant so so you know and his and his and his chicken curry is", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-88", "text": "and his and his and his chicken curry is still uh his recipe is still being used in Tokyo so people interest you right it's not just it's not just people try interesting yeah people interest me but I think what interests me is actually the act of researching all of this it because I said I don't have too many silos in my head so this is part of that I you know I like to immerse myself in the world in general so this is part of that immersion process so when I'm researching it it makes no sense going and spending all your time in the library uh and by the way if you just do that you'd actually miss many many important things like for example it may say in the in the Memoirs let's say that I went into and so place and went down this Lane and turned left now somebody who just read it in in a book will not understand that turning left is important because if you go there you'll see that if we turn right something totally different would", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-89", "text": "see that if we turn right something totally different would have happened yeah but there is no way you would be able to tell that if you just read it so you have to go to that place immerse yourself into it and as I said it's part of what I do anyway as a you know so I you know I went to and and some of it I enjoy myself doing like the cellular jail thing uh till you went and saw those rooms yes that just to say that they were tortured yeah you can't tell you have to go there these are tiny rooms smaller than this room yeah uh cold brick walls and you know with just a door a barred uh door in front of you where by the way it's been designed in such a way that the prison guards can continuously watch you whereas you can't talk to anybody on either side so it has been designed for a particular kind of mental control and you know you can read all of you want about it unless you", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-90", "text": "can read all of you want about it unless you don't it you feel suffocated when you go not just that you don't also realize that you know a few weeks later uh Dyer was actually given a sarupa in uh in the Golden Temple now that is bad in itself but when you go there you realize that the jallianwala bag and the golden temple are 300 meters apart yeah you're literally going to the same location and you are being honored for carrying out genocide so I think it's very very important to go to the place otherwise that is again A Part which was the Band-Aid I keep coming back to that the collaborators and the Band-Aid that nobody talks about how he was given a sarupa about how they were collaborators then absolutely they are collaborators then and they are collaborators now I'm coming back to the book even though yeah but you can see that happening even in today so for example even this uh suspicious narrative that is continuously bandied", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-91", "text": "uh suspicious narrative that is continuously bandied about about India you know electoral autocracy and all of this yeah uh or for example the BBC uh program that was recently done very controversial one what is interestingly that much of this is actually done by people of Indian ethnic origin so this collaborator class is still there interestingly many of these people are direct descendants of those collaborators but point is that this class has always existed and we can't deny that you know few hundred thousand uh Brits ran a country of hundreds of millions of people it was only possible because of collaboration but today there's no monetary benefit that they would get no by doing that well first of all there is monetary benefit I mean after all uh you wouldn't need a billionaires to be funding this stuff otherwise would you um and then there are intelligence agencies or friendly countries some of them in our neighborhood there are corporate interests um and so on so I think you have I mean you know the", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-92", "text": "so I think you have I mean you know the entire episode relating to vaccines for example just happened three years ago um clearly driven by all kinds of corporate interests yes and it comes out later and then you say that they weren't exactly Cassandra's who were warning us about this uh the other thing that which I wanted to ask you you know which when you would we were talking with the book was about when you had written about how Marxist literature was kept in those uh jails and it was tell me about the influence of Marxism on the revolutionaries I'm coming back to the book though I was done with the book but I'm going to come back to it and the other thing was about the influence of Hinduism also because many people think that the revolutionaries were atheists and agnostic not at all not at all so not at all so first of all um a very large part of the of the Revolutionary movement is directly derived from not just Hinduism but a", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-93", "text": "directly derived from not just Hinduism but a specific branch of it the shaktism many of them were very strong shaktas I.E worshipers or bhavani or Durga or Kali and so on many of the initiations into the Revolutionary movement happened with a you know a text in Gita or Veda or something in one hand a sword or a revolver in the other hand and oath was taken to Durga or bhavani or Kali so so Shakti Islam is a very important part of this when you listen to Vande mataram the first two stanzas are relatively secular about the motherland but the next three are clearly derived from shakta image imagery so the uh the the part of Vande mataram which not many people recite yes but you should you should listen to it in fact for this book I actually created for the the third and fourth stanzas I I got my younger son to create a video for it by the way yeah you can see it on online so good", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-94", "text": "way yeah you can see it on online so good [Music] [Music] [Music] please [Music] I'm always [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] to remember this uh because this is the section that was sung by the revolutionaries to The Gallows and so Hinduism and more gen more specifically shaktism was a very major part of the ideological driving force of all of this and that comes in that anandmat movie absolutely and by the way they are also being inspired by for example shivaji who himself is inspired by bhavani so there is this very strong lineage of ideas and so on now somewhere in the 1920s interest arises in Marxism because remember till the point of the Russian Revolution nobody really has heard of Marxism in India it's really in the late 20s this something pops up um but in in the the revolution is living outside India are the first to find out about it many of them by the way have become refugees in Soviet Union because they", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-95", "text": "have become refugees in Soviet Union because they have nowhere to run away so they end up in Tashkent and one of them MN Roy actually found these Communist Party of India and tashkin in the early 1920s but in India nobody knows much about this till the very late 1920s and one of the very first people to read about uh the Marxism in India is of course bhagat Singh but it is very important to remember that bhagat Singh Is Not the founder of the communist movement in India he's in fact himself a part of a explicitly nationalist movement uh he's hanged do remember for uh avenging the death of Lala lajpatra who would today be called Hindu nationalist his movement the Hindustan Republican Association and the Revolutionary movement from which he derives himself is led by somebody called sanyal who totally despises is Marxism and he writes that repeatedly in his book so he's a completely anti-marxist so in his uh tract which", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-96", "text": "completely anti-marxist so in his uh tract which he lit wrote while in jail called why I'm an atheist bhagat Singh himself says that you know I am the only person in this system leftover who is who is kind of believes in Marxism and everybody else is uh is a nationalist and uh and so on so that is the uh uh that is how things were till the 1930s now what happens is that the communist movement begins to gather Pace in the 1930s uh there are many reasons for this some of it is Russian support but interestingly uh also reason was that the British actually supported the spread of marxist literature in Indian jails to the revolutionaries uh to in order to divide them from the nationalists so many revolutionaries went into jail as nationalists and came out as marxists and of course uh by the 1930s who controls the Communist party it's British communists and to some extent the Russian Communists there's some conflict between the two but British", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-97", "text": "there's some conflict between the two but British Communists double agents like uh rajini Palma it was half Indian half Swedish and many others and of course it turns out to be a great investment because of course the the Marxist uh the former revolutionaries now marxists uh communist side with the British during the second world war and so you have the Communist Party leaders calling um netaji as you know Running Dog of Tojo and you know criticizing him and so on so that is how it happens now what happens unfortunately is that Emin Roy the original founder of the CPI drifts off from the party and of course after Independence there is another problem that you know they had said all these bad things about people like netaji and they didn't really participate in the freedom so they adopt bhagat Singh as a sort of see our guy had also participated in in the freedom struggle but in fact bhagat Singh had nothing to do with the Communist Party of India um so", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-98", "text": "to do with the Communist Party of India um so they are retrospectively bringing him back and that is why you have this strange situation three people are hanged on the same day for the same crime bhagat Singh you only hear about bhagat Singh why because he has been resurrected by the marxists because he's the only person they could sort of say Aussie a Marxist guy also did something and so he then becomes like a founding father of marxist movement and deaf and also freedom fighter and is adopted and built out in subsequent decades um of course bhagat Singh is a remarkable person but he is subsequent not an icon of Marxism is what you're saying yeah he's not quite an icon of Marxism he was not a part of the Marxist movement he was part of a nationalist movement as I said he he ultimately gets hanged for avenging the death of a Hindu nationalist yeah the other two were hanging with him would today also be called", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "b7870ef2da8f-99", "text": "two were hanging with him would today also be called Hindu nationalists so uh you know it's rather be rather difficult we're going to go into a Borough now about where Hindu nationalism and that's a whole different thing yes so anyway um for all of you do read this it's a very easy read doesn't take much time but very interestingly told story about so many Heroes that we should have known about thank you Sanji for being part of this podcast thank you so much for having me here thank you for watching or listening into this podcast do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this Namaste click here to watch the previous episodes [Music] foreign [Music]", "source": "LByRXS4H8j8"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-0", "text": "we have now learned to manage our differences now us has understood that there are compulsions in India related to the relationship with Russia in terms of what the United States can share with India if it also has sophisticated Russian technology this is a question for India the United States wants to go as far in the relationship as we can the U.S is almost a comprehensive partner it's the largest trading partner it gives us military equipment we have nearly 5 million Indians in the United States so it's it's a very different relationship prior to the war the Russia Ukraine war the US was the second largest supplier of natural gas India today the relationship is in a much more robust place the Indian leaders have said repeatedly now that don't they don't see the quad as against anyone but as a positive for something it's a false narrative that the Chinese are trying to create that it's a military Alliance that has been explicitly denied I think what Hindu Pacific is done is really to put India", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-1", "text": "Hindu Pacific is done is really to put India back into the larger picture it was the nature of the political controversy that India was beginning to engage the U.S seriously Imran Khan had gone so far in his anti-americanism that the U.S sees an opportunity uh in engaging some of the other actors you know in Pakistan's GDP today is less than maharashas and one Indian state Namaste Jain welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash this special edition is being recorded at the rice Cena dialogues held in New Delhi in 2023. I've recorded two sessions on India U.S relations the challenges that lie ahead the one here is in dry Cena dialogue with former Diplomat Arun Singh India's ambassador to the United States from 2015 to 2016 and Ambassador can adjuster who needs no introduction to Indians he's been U.S ambassador to India from 2017 to 2020 and has served on the National Security Council and National Economic Council after this interview we'll run", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-2", "text": "and National Economic Council after this interview we'll run a second recording which I recorded in January 2023 with dhruva jayashankar and C Raja Mohan who have also closely observed the complexities of the india-us relationship but first with Ambassador Singh and Ambassador juster thank you gentlemen for agreeing to do this podcast I'd like to begin with you Ambassador Singh just this week the American Top Diplomat for the region uh Donald Lou he expressed The View that U.S was aware that India wasn't going to end relations with Russia uh I'm coaching him he said I don't think they're going to end those relations anytime soon but we're talking to them about the role they can play in this conflict to what do you attribute this non-application of pressure on India with regard to Russia I think two things have happened recently which capture where the relationship is today on 31st January this year the Indian and U.S national security advisors launched a new initiative on critical and emerging Technologies", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-3", "text": "a new initiative on critical and emerging Technologies artificial intelligence Quantum cyber 6G biotech commercialization of space the fact that the two countries have decided to partner in this kind of technology is a reflection of the trust and confidence that they have in the relationship so that's one dimension and the second dimension is what you refer to as Donald Lou's comments about we have now learned to manage our differences which is a new stage in the relationship earlier when we had differences it did brought about some disruption now us has understood that there are compulsions in India related to the relationship with Russia it's a legacy relationship even now we are 60 percent of higher defense inventories of Russian origin so they understand that when India wants to maintain the Strategic autonomy of its decision making it cannot give up on relationships that are in its national interests so the way they've decided to play it is show understanding for India's concerns and interests and the U.S national security advisor has said for example that with India", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-4", "text": "national security advisor has said for example that with India now we are playing the long game and the Secretary of State Tony blinken that we understand India's compulsions on Russia so I think given the depth of the india-us relationship they have assessed that there is no point for them in trying to put any pressure on India related to his relationship with Russia because that's an area where India cannot compromise especially when India says that takes decisions in its own interests right Ambassador Justin would you like to take on from that uh where you've been uh Ambassador here in in New Delhi you've been in India Watcher a friend of India here when do you think this maturity in relationship came about what was that watershed moment or is it a it's a you know a process I think it's been a process over the last 22 years uh it began uh really with the President Clinton's trip to India at the end of his term in 2000 but I believe President Bush really had the concept of transforming the relationship uh overall", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-5", "text": "really had the concept of transforming the relationship uh overall and that the world's largest and the world's oldest democracy should have a better relationship and it steadily changed there have been uh key points along the way we first began with a high technology cooperation group that then led to a next steps in strategic partnership that laid the foundation for the Civil nuclear deal which really was transformational and again the relationship sometimes as my colleague said has had difficulties or challenges on a day-to-day basis but when you step back and look at the Arc of the last 22 years it's extraordinary how much we have accomplished but we'll continue to face challenges going forward and just to comment on the situation with Russia the United States understands the history and the complexity of India's relationship with Russia and the fact that it has a lot of its military hardware from it and we very much want to move forward further in terms of our high technology relationship but I think it would be wrong to assume that at some point", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-6", "text": "it would be wrong to assume that at some point the two May Clash because today in the military world it's not just a question of equipment it's a question of systems and networks and military items talk to each other through their software and there will be technological limitations in my view and from my understanding from people in the defense community in terms of what the United States can share with India if it also has sophisticated Russian technology in its system or network as well this is a question for India the United States wants to go as far in the relationship as we can but there may be some inherent limitations depending on India's own choices in terms of how it wants to array its various military items because at some point we cannot have the most sensitive U.S technology together with the sensitive Russian technology for fear at least at this point that it would be compromised whether there are technological fixes to that or whether there will have to be policy adjustments that remains to be seen down the road", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-7", "text": "adjustments that remains to be seen down the road I'll stay on the topic of Russia you heard the foreign minister Russian foreign minister that I seen a dialogue he said that Western nations are blackmailing countries uh in in the Asian region and pressurizing countries dividing them even um and old relationships are unable to withstand the kind of pressure that uh that America is putting uh them through do you agree with that I listen to the Russian foreign minister and I was waiting to hear something cogent and compelling and I thought it was somewhat uh disappointing and even the audience laughed at times at some of the way he pieced together uh his history just as we said the United States isn't pressuring India or other countries that is for their choices to what to do vis-a-vis uh the war in Ukraine uh we think that it is a uh real violation of international law and a series of atrocities in terms of what has occurred we'd like to see uh Russians stop their behavior and we", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-8", "text": "like to see uh Russians stop their behavior and we like other countries to join us with that but those every country has chosen its own path and we accept that and we're not twisting anyone's arm or forcing them that's a interpretation that the Russian foreign minister has given but I don't think it's in accord with reality investors saying in in this post-covered world that we are in uh international relations are sharply divided over the Russia Ukraine conflict and over you know the conflict in say the South China Sea um we saw that there was really no Meeting of Minds at the G20 what about the quad G20 and quad what are your what is your view on these two so if you looked at the comments that the Indian external affairs minister made after the meeting of the G20 his suggestion was that there was a broad meeting of mind and there was an outcome document it was essentially on two paragraphs related to Russia and Ukraine where as he said two of the delegations couldn't agree", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-9", "text": "as he said two of the delegations couldn't agree with the broader formulation that was there picking up the Bali declaration at the end of the year so certainly related to what's happening in Russia related to some of the unilateral actions that China has taken in South China see East China Sea along the the line of control with India there are challenges that countries are facing and India's effort I think through the G20 process this year would be to try and focus on areas where there is Convergence try and focus also on the financial and economic issues issues that are concerned to the developing countries India it can be in a meeting of countries of the South and is talking about the voice of the South because those are some of the concerns that need to be addressed now in that framework I think the quad census revitalization in 2017 has an important role to play in terms of as it has projected maintaining a rule space to order maintaining freedom of navigation sovereignty territorial Integrity of", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-10", "text": "freedom of navigation sovereignty territorial Integrity of countries and they're also working together to show to the countries in their region in asean the Pacific island countries that through their work the quad is bringing something positive on the table to the benefit of the countries in the region and again you'd have seen comments from Indian leaders that they see the quad as a force for Global code and that's how they're approaching right ambassading like uh we heard the four uh saying that it's for Goodwill and all but China insists that this is being militarized that quad is a military tool it's it's a military grouping what do you have to say to that look China is trying to construct a narrative which it feels will serve its interest and try and undermine the growing sort of influence the quad countries uh bringing to the table and if you saw comments even made at this conference by all the court participants and leaders it's anything but a military alerts and they've said repeatedly that the security aspect", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-11", "text": "alerts and they've said repeatedly that the security aspect the military aspect is not there in the grouping in terms of the various conversations that having when they talk about issues related to climate change new and emerging Technologies uh infrastructure connectivity digital Tech Technologies so they are not discussing security but I think China's as you've seen is trying to bring about its unilateral influence on the countries in the region and it feels that the countries of the Quad if they're able to work together will give to countries in asean in the Pacific island options other than China so from their perspective they don't want to that and so they want to construct a narrative to try and undermine this effort but but that's their self-serving purpose and everybody else has to see it for what it is and if I could just expand on the excellent comments of uh my colleague uh I was very impressed yesterday at the uh panel with the quad ministers at how comfortable and easy they were I was involved in the", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-12", "text": "and easy they were I was involved in the revitalization of the Quad first at the working level in 2017 and then at the ministerial level in 2019 and then as was stated the uh it's been raised in 2021 to the leadership level and the increasing Comfort among the parties in discussing issues they're called The Beatles right yes exactly and and the expanding agenda and uh as Arun said it's really meant to be an open architecture inviting anyone else to participate in positive common uh Goods for the region in a whole host of areas as we said in Freedom of navigation over flight cyber for security vaccine distribution resilient Supply chains and it's a false narrative that the Chinese are trying to create that it's a military Alliance that has been explicitly denied but it is an alternative vision of the architecture for the region in which there's not predatory financing there's not trying to twist the arms of other countries in terms of what to do but to offer them opportunities for their", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-13", "text": "to do but to offer them opportunities for their benefit overall so I was very impressed with the quad regrettably the G20 has a it is a consensus organization so if you have two states that are out of consensus you can't get a document that has everyone on board but they as was said there were really two paragraphs only that were not agreed upon but the contrast with the quad was quite striking and how how positive that was oh if I could just add one sentence here that the Indian leaders have said repeatedly now that don't they don't see the quad as again against anyone but as a positive for something and the rules based on the freedom of navigation and things are happening right uh Ambassador Singh like Ambassador juster um you have served like he has served in India you've served in the U.S several tenures um in the last three to four years one has noticed that the line between National Security and trade it's kind of got blurred um and uh India's external affairs", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-14", "text": "of got blurred um and uh India's external affairs minister also said that Global South cannot calibrate its foreign policy without looking at things like energy fertilizer so everything gets uh you know these two things have merged now when it comes to and being seasoned diplomats I'd like both of you to give your point of view on this so from my perspective what is happening now is a turn away from the attempt that was made since 1990. after the dissolution of the Soviet Union in the unipolar phase and Global relations there was an effort at globalization of trade and production and therefore uh go for efficiency in production involve all countries in the world and that was the effort as part of the effort in the U.S the projection was that you must integrate China more and more into the international mainstream because that would lead to political and economic liberalization in China uh but as a result of that over time they found that China has become more protectionist China is exploiting the rules of the", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-15", "text": "more protectionist China is exploiting the rules of the WTO to subsidize its industry has predatory trade and economic policies and then covet further exacerbated that impact when there was a disruption in supply chain so with the impact of these two phenomenon I think there has been a sense and you hear that move from the U.S which was the original articulator of globalization that first that you needed to do onshoring of production now they've moved away from that they are talking of French Shoring of production and therefore with that security becomes an important element in the supply chains that are being constructed and again from India's perspective with China we have a very difficult relationship and we have a huge trade deficit with China so looking at our own security uh French Shoring of production and Supply chains will probably become a positive element in in terms of how India looks at straight and economic relations right could I get to you sure there have been a number of developments that have occurred over the last few years that have", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-16", "text": "that have occurred over the last few years that have affected the economic agenda first countries have realized that trade has had positive and negative elements to it and there have been some displacements of local working forces without properly integrating them back into the economy and so people want to be a little more careful about trade and how open and liberal it is secondly with covid-19 there was a realization that some of our critical dependencies are on countries that we can't necessarily trust and so while it's important to have Supply chains that need to be with trusted partners and be resilient and strong and then third some of the points that a room is just making in terms of China have led folks to feel that we need to decouple at least in sensitive areas from China I think we have to make sure though that we don't over correct the other way and look totally at self-sufficiency or really narrowing some of the trade issues because trade is important not just for its economic element but as a strategic matter and", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-17", "text": "for its economic element but as a strategic matter and so I'm sensitive to the fact that we have to be sensitive to local populations and displacement but we also have to see that China has a robust regional trade strategy it's joined the regional comprehensive economic partnership agreement is Supply to join the comprehensive and Progressive agreement on trans-pacific partnership it has the belt and Road initiative it has robust bilateral relations and that for them is the major arena of influence in the region and the United States and India are not in the regional agreements we don't even ourselves despite the fact that our trade levels keep increasing have a trade agreement between us and we have to in my opinion think more uh carefully about the broader trade relationship and our regional strategy for strategic reasons as much as anything so that we are not left out of shaping the rules and the norms for issues such as the digital economy and other important matters going forward right uh just uh in conclusion um Ambassador", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-18", "text": "forward right uh just uh in conclusion um Ambassador saying do you think that you know this the rice Cena dialogue and hosting and the quad and G2 the G20 foreign ministers do you think that this was a grand test for Indian foreign policy to host the Russians the Americans and the Chinese on one platform no I don't think it's a grand test as such I think it's a good Confluence of various events that are taking place and it's uh good to have them together at the same place where they can have some interactions of course the U.S Secretary of State as you know met the Chinese foreign minister in Munich and had an interaction with the Russian foreign minister in India so those are useful but they would certainly have come to attend the G20 meeting as they did at Bali and the Chinese and Russian foreign ministers will come back here despite our difficulties with China we'll come back here for the Shanghai cooperation related meetings that will happen later the year so I would say", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-19", "text": "that will happen later the year so I would say these are useful opportunities to build on right so would you like to add to that I would just add that it is a uh fortuitous Confluence of events that does help showcase India's own role in international Affairs and the capabilities of the Prime Minister and the minister of external Affairs and working with a variety of Partners and pulling all of these events off very successfully this week and what I think everyone agrees has been a a positive series of meetings thank you Ambassador Justin thank you Ambassador Singh thank you for speaking with us on indo-us relations thank you thank you the second session of this podcast on India U.S relations Is with dhruva Jay Shankar and C Raja Mohan this episode was shot in January 2023. today my guests will unravel the naughty issues plaguing the india-us relationship both are foreign policy experts dhruva Jay Shankar is executive director of The Observer Research Foundation America his earlier stints include being a", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-20", "text": "Research Foundation America his earlier stints include being a fellow at the Brookings Institute in India and Washington DC and the German Marshall Fund in Washington DC with several stints in universities in Singapore and the U.S dhruva has written extensively on Indian foreign policy with special emphasis on indo-us relations see Raja Mohan is a senior fellow with the Asia Society policy Institute in New Delhi earlier he was the director of Institute of South Asian studies National University of Singapore and currently a visiting research Professor there Raja Mohan was also the founding director of Carnegie India and has served on the National Security Advisory board thank you gentlemen for coming to Ani podcast with Smitha prakash it's always good to have friends on the podcast where I can chat without having egos hurt and without worrying about sensitivities I've had you over I've met you I've worked with you several times and Raja is the one you know dhruva who when we we went to cover the one to", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-21", "text": "who when we we went to cover the one to three nuclear deal and for the life of me I couldn't understand whether it's going to happen or not happen if we were waiting in the room and I said this isn't working I don't think it's working I'm going to go with the story because my deadline was coming and Raja was like wait India us you never know it just might and thank God I didn't file my story or thank Raja I didn't find my story so I'm going to begin with you in the pecking order simply because raja's seen India U.S relations uh you know he has the benefit of having seen it over a longer period of time uh early mover Advantage I'm going to ask you uh you've had Decades of experience on seeing India U.S relations uh reporting on it uh as a reporter and then analyzing it too at what point do you see uh the relationship now with India hosting the G20 and uh the future ahead I think some of your", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-22", "text": "and uh the future ahead I think some of your younger listeners might not know how difficult the relationship was just 30 years ago correct and today it's really us is almost comprehensive partner it's the largest trading partner it gives us military equipment we have nearly 5 million Indians in the United States so it's it's a very different relationship today but when we were covering say 30 years ago yeah it was they would be intense recromination at the drop of a hat suspicion suspicion distrust so I think you had the differences over Kashmir differences so Pakistan differences over the nuclear issue so it was a very testy touchy relationship if you go back to the 1990s so I think with the nuclear tests in 1998 and then the Civil nuclear deal into 2005 and the bush administration's decision to what we call dehyphenate separate India and Pakistan and step back from Kashmir activism together I think this series of developments between 1998 to 2005 a laid the basis for a very very", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-23", "text": "2005 a laid the basis for a very very different relationship and I think since then despite all the pessimism about the relationship it has grown from strength to strength as I said today the trade is about 160 billion dollars and it's really uh and the and the links say between Bangalore and Silicon Valley are the businesses between Bombay and New York I mean it's really an amazing partnership today you know but the the past and the present to see it from that prism uh do you also see the the probably the nuclear deal uh as that that watershed moment of before and after I think there are a few different watershed moments in hindsight um you know I think the nuclear tests were actually a big uh it drew American attention to India in a way that it hadn't in a sustained manner previously and you had the jaswan Singh stroked Albert uh uh dialogue that uh amongst others covered very intensely and and reported and you know again it was in some ways 1998 was the", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-24", "text": "know again it was in some ways 1998 was the low point but it also led to a realization on both sides about how to prepare the relationship um again 2005 was a 2005 to eight was was a major moment as well for the first time in in the US was signaling to India that it wanted to not just make amends but actually actively move India into a category you know otherwise India was being treated like a North Korea in some ways on the nuclear issue uh to suddenly from a pariah to to a partner and so that period I think was very intense we had a very intense debate I think again I find sometimes I I remember it still because I was early in my career at that time but I find young people younger than me sometimes don't remember how intense it was we had a very strong debate in India uh in those years about what is the future of the relationship with you guys what is what does it mean for India's place in the world can we India rise without", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-25", "text": "India's place in the world can we India rise without a partnership with the US so um so I think that that was a formative period in some ways but I think we're now at a very different Plateau you know different stage completely um again uh it's not that there aren't differences we have differences over Russia on trade issues uh sometimes on digital issues immigration sometimes Pakistan rears its head still but you know on all of those issues I think they're much better managed today the number the the level of contact and dialogue between the two governments between the two people's integration between the two economies is just at a qualitatively different level uh and you know I I I'm based in Washington now but every few weeks there's a senior official from India coming in we just had the the Commerce Minister there we will have National Security advisors who knew and and two ways the the secretary's cabinet secretary is coming here uh to India so I think it's a qualitatively very different relationship I think uh", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-26", "text": "it's a qualitatively very different relationship I think uh the visits used to be there there every time I mean there were so many people going from India but the level of uh you know that they would meet that seems to have changed isn't it that the officials they would meet in the establishment in the U.S I think that's changed I mean again I I don't know all the meetings you know prior to the 90s uh you know now a lot of it is available in the archives you can see what was discussed in some of those meetings some of it I think is is certainly the seniority uh you see and again we take it for granted but you know I hear sometimes in Washington complaints from other countries uh officials from other countries saying oh we don't get face time with senior officials in the US government how come India get so much face time so again I think we now take it for granted that that uh that is the case but that does seem to be uh", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-27", "text": "is the case but that does seem to be uh true you know most Indian officials meet with their counterparts in terms of protocol uh sometimes higher than that uh you know that I think just a late last year the foreign secretary came and you know the secretary of state in the US who's a cabinet level person gave him some time a brief time to meet again for many other countries they noted this they see this how much importance India is being given yeah Raja from dhruva mentions from paraya to partner uh hasn't been an easy Journey right and it hasn't been a journey without hurdles without speed Breakers what were those hurdles and when did we cross those or did we cross those smoothly you remember the the great debate on the nuclear deal you had Prime Minister Manmohan Singh you know had to constantly go back to you know George W bush and say look I got serious opposition so don't insist on certain conditionalities so you must be more sensitive to my requirements", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-28", "text": "so you must be more sensitive to my requirements so by George W bush kept making the necessary amendments so that Mr Manuel sink in successfully steered through the parliament but yet in the finally he had to face up a leading Coalition of partner the left parties ended their support yeah had to go into the parliament to seek a confidence vote you remember all the drama in the morning yeah but he was willing to stake it even then I keep repeating this to many people who don't remember that for if on a foreign policy issue a prime minister was ready to stake his government because in India as you know look the foreign policy is not subject to parliamentary approval unlike in the U.S where every agreement all major increments have to be ratified by the senate in India the executive has the power to do things but I think it was the nature of the political controversy that India was beginning to engage the U.S seriously you remembered all the arguments at the time or India will lose its", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-29", "text": "the arguments at the time or India will lose its independence India will India's independent foreign policy will be sacrificed and that separation of the civil and Military nuclear programs will be a disaster so I think the the intensity of the argument was completely disproportional to a deal which is fairly straightforward and that it was in to the benefit of India but yet the political opposition to it you remember how the BJP both were opposing the deal yeah and I think in the end I think it was really people like uh you know Mr Kalam was the president former president at the time you had people like mullah I'm saying yeah the whole lot of other people rallied around to bail out the government so I think it was a very very critical moment if Mr manman Singh had lost the confidence vote I think things could have taken another turn the other part is once the agreement was done we haven't bought a single American reactor since then yes that's that's another thing so I think what", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-30", "text": "yes that's that's another thing so I think what had changed was the trust it was never about the reactors it was never about the nuclear deal if Russia had given us a similar deal I mean they didn't have the power to give it to us they would have been no debate I think it was the long accumulated political distrust to the United States that led to the controversy and after that you never hear about what went in there I think today there is a level of comfort um I think the challenge of the nuclear deal was not to produce a nuclear reactors in India but to overcome the trust deficit and the second aspect to it was the fear that Americans and the British would intervene and take Kashmir away from us once Bush removed that so I think two major sources of Suspicion were removed and after that it's been really one Advance after another while we have differences today but the differences are really marginal compared to the expanse of the cooperation that we have in the past", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-31", "text": "of the cooperation that we have in the past there was only differences there was very little cooperation I'll just give you one example in 1990 India's total two-way trade with Russia was higher than with the United States Russia was about Soviet Union was about 5.6 billion dollars and U.S was about five billion dollars so last year India Russia trade was barely 10 billion in 22 it's grown because of the oil purchases but the U.S trade is 160 billion dollars come in those 30 years from really 5 billion dollars to 160 billion dollars and it's growing and we have a a what do you call a surplus on our side so I think it's a very different relationship and this way the the diaspora was another critical element whose campaigned for the support the nuclear deal in the U.S and since then they become a really a living bridge between India and the U.S in on the nuclear issue I remember even at that time the Americans you know used to say that yeah we we", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-32", "text": "Americans you know used to say that yeah we we are signing this deal with you guys but when it actually comes to Commerce it's the French who will probably get in and we because of our bureaucracy which is the Americans and because of various knots in this uh whole thing uh we will not be doing Commerce for a long long time and sure enough you know how many years has it been since almost uh and we still don't have an American reactor they have still not been able to do the kind of level of Commerce that they had envisaged where is it stuck what is the problem no I think it's really I mean one part was the liability I think where the Manmohan Singh had a great Triumph in doing the nuclear deal but I think they squandered much of it by doing a liability bill which made it very hard for Western companies to set up reactors in India so except the Soviet Union except Russia we haven't bought reactors from anyone but but I think", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-33", "text": "bought reactors from anyone but but I think it's really the liability we made it really difficult for Outsiders uh so I think that's a tragedy but I think as George Bush is to say look it's not about reactors that value has not bought any reactors the nature of the commerce between those two sides has dramatically grown and I think that's why that the absence of mistrust uh with or without reaction yeah both Conti rice and George Bush they both used to say that yes that's true uh dhruva since you're in DC you you see the relationship through two prisms I guess uh tell me what is the what is the view in Washington DC do they think that this relationship had more potential than it's actually delivered so I'll say actually one thing on the nuclear the Civil nuclear Commerce um I think a few things happened one was the nuclear liability bill um and it was in some squandered opportunity but a few other things happened one was the Fukushima disaster yes", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-34", "text": "things happened one was the Fukushima disaster yes and that sort of changed globally not just in India but that changed the sort of uh you know set back in some ways the move uh which today actually makes sense from energy security point of view from a climate change point of view uh the Civil nuclear energy industry the third thing that happened actually was the U.S nuclear industry went bankrupt essentially Westinghouse their largest producer and so just when India was you know India was starting to make moves towards moving ahead on this they weren't able to deliver on their side um so I think it was there are multiple reasons why that didn't materialize I would also say you know Dr rajaman mentioned the commercial relationship in the diaspora but there's another turning point we haven't touched upon uh which I think was the Y2K uh and by by extension in some ways the growth of the Indian I.T industry the um you know the establishment of uh uh sort of a tech ecosystem and that in some ways", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-35", "text": "of a tech ecosystem and that in some ways led directly to the establishment of a large diaspora in in a very successful Indian American diaspora a lot of the trades and services between the two countries and so I mean there's not one single turning point but if you had to pick one perhaps the Y2K was that moment and we were still in some ways seeing the benefits of that but is you know are people disappointed by uh you know again maybe people who work in the Civil nuclear industry are and again the reasons are not just on the Indian side uh there are many reasons why that hasn't materialized uh I would say broadly I think people are actually quite satisfied with the progress that has been made you look at defense for example it was you know 2005-6 there was no defense trade between us and no substantial there was a GE engines for the for the theaters but but not very much today India India operates eight platforms that are U.S origin uh military platforms and", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-36", "text": "that are U.S origin uh military platforms and some of them quite significant ones um so that has completely transformed you actually now have joint production in India in places like Hyderabad and Bangalore of you know make in India products by U.S companies and Indian working with the Indian companies that's just on the security side um but I think if you look across the board today and energy you know prior to the war the Russia Ukraine war the US was the second largest supplier of natural gas to India after Qatar it was the fourth largest supplier of oil to India and again this was something that five six years ago was a trickle today it's a major part of the relationship renewable energies as well so I think you know you go down on almost every area today the relationship is in a much more robust Place how do people in Washington see it I think people who track the relationship broadly understand this uh people at the senior levels of government largely see this they see it as a positive relationship they've", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-37", "text": "see this they see it as a positive relationship they've devoted a lot of time I think some people who are it's more the chatterati I think some people who are casual observers some of the foreign policy generalists really haven't paid as much attention to the relationship as they should there isn't the depth of understanding about India it's still like I think given how how large India is this still unfortunate lack of understanding I think about India many aspects of India so that I think a lot more work needs to be done there is that specific just to India U.S relations I mean the way India functions uh is it hard to understand uh is befuddling to most uh observers outside and you know practitioners of foreign policy I think two things about the Americans you know they're very practical people I mean as long as the overall relationship is moving forward the lack of progress on the nuclear issue does not really matter that things are improving across the board there's most defense cooperation today we have something", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-38", "text": "board there's most defense cooperation today we have something called the quad which was unimaginable say decade ago that it is working so as long as the overall the ball is being pushed forward okay minor disagreements or failures does do not really really matter second I think the Americans will keep coming coming at you you know unlike you know in other parts of the world I mean they might say look we are very difficult to deal with I mean Indians are not easy to deal with and I think lot of times declaratory policies don't get translated at the at the bureaucratic level but the markets just keep coming at it and keep trying different ways to move forward rather than saying look I'm kuti with you and I'm not going to do any more so I think there is a there is a innate pragmatism within the U.S so not just with us like they have huge differences with Europe but today in the Ukraine case they've come together they've had huge trade problems with Japan but yet that relationship", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-39", "text": "had huge trade problems with Japan but yet that relationship has endured for 70 years so I think they are willing to you know manage differences as long as you expand the areas of cooperation uh they're quite they're quite happy with it you know when we talk about areas of convergence there can be many like you mentioned dhruva mentioned defense even that's uh Tech there's diff uh Pharma there's so many things that we can talk about but when it comes to uh indo-pacific um there is also the suspicion about uh America playing some kind of a pivotal role in this region at least our immediate neighbors are uh are a little antsy that you know through India America could be playing uh and you know a pivot when it comes to also with uh you know India and China kind of a thing don't you think that no I think with America there's always a conspiracy theory I think what is might say that look if you see the the kind of way in which the American the chaos with which the policy is", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-40", "text": "which the American the chaos with which the policy is made I mean it's very hard to devise conspiracies in Washington so I think what they did in the indo-pacific it's not actually I remember the debate in 2008 onwards with a lot of Suspicion in India why they're calling it indo-pacific why do they want to bring India into it yeah but I think we overcome those fears I mean it's actually the indo-pacific is about putting Indo into the Pacific so what we saw you know thanks to the kind of policies Independent India pursued India was already a power if you go back to 1945 in the Second World War uh Indian troops India's contribution to the war was immense uh Indian troops were there almost all the way up to Vietnam taking surrender of the Japanese troops Indian troops were major you know they really pushed the Japanese out of Burma but I think after Independence we kind of turned inwards so in a way from being a leader of Asia we saw ourselves as", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-41", "text": "being a leader of Asia we saw ourselves as shrunk to South Asia yeah I think what Hindu Pacific has done is really to put India back into the larger picture you know Raja you and I have covered asean Summit several times and uh several Asian readers would say that why doesn't India take leadership you know why doesn't it play a larger role and we used to always wonder we have no answer to this like why doesn't it do it I'm not so concerned about what Indians feel and that India wanting to I guess many of us are flattered that you know it's become indo-pacific but you were in Singapore too so tell me how does how do the other Asian countries see this new name absolutely I think the two things there one our own Neighbors in South Asia and they think until all these decades they've used the Americans to balance against India correct their problems with India therefore U.S and China and was seen as partners in limiting India's power so when India and the", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-42", "text": "in limiting India's power so when India and the U.S get together so for them it is a problem so they're a bit worried that their Viewpoint or say whether it is Nepal or whether it's Sri Lanka won't carry as much weight U.S and India will jointly dominate the region so that's one fear for the asean I think southeast Asia there are really deep sense of ambivalence about the indo-pacific they don't like the term they would prefer to use Asia Pacific rather than indo-pacific and for them Accord they're very concerned about it they think the quad will replace the asean so for them they got so integrated into the Chinese sphere of influence for them a quarrel between us and China and a deepening partnership between India and the US to balance China make them very very uncomfortable but I think my my assessment is that look the more India does more India works with the U.S and more the quad becomes a functioning organization people learn to live with it so I think it", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-43", "text": "people learn to live with it so I think it is a question if they see the quad and the U.S faltering against China then they're going to go even closer to China but if they see the court the U.S Japan today are beginning to mount pleasure on China they see the pressure is significant they would begin to readjust their position so finally it is how they judge the power equations and I think we're just at the beginning of that big transition where China is stumbling now you remember two years ago China is Invincible China is Unstoppable U.S is in Decline but today we're seeing a China has its own problems U.S has its own strengths so I think the picture is beginning to change but you are absolutely right there's a lot of worries about what the indo-pacific about the quad what why is India in this so I remind a lot of my friends in Asia and that look India was here uh to liberate you from the Japanese it was not the Chinese groups it was Indian troops", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-44", "text": "it was not the Chinese groups it was Indian troops so but I think that we ourselves have abandoned that history and it's really Prime Minister Modi deserves uh you know credit for reclaiming the role India played in the two world wars and that we're not a new Johnny come lately to become a Metropole that we we've always contributed to the maintenance of the internal system and that is India's return of India or to a major person that's why I have that poster Raja you know I'm behind you uh that's a World War One recruitment poster you know the Indian soldier out there many people think it's an akand Bharat thing it's not it's the world war one uh poster but yeah um tell me uh is the this ambivalence that uh you know Asia has or this um should I say maybe not misplaced fear but this uh confusion probably where is quad going where is indo-pacific going are they going to be in sync with each other also is America ramming down uh the", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-45", "text": "with each other also is America ramming down uh the indo-pacific and ramming down the quad down the gullets of all the Asian countries so you know it's it's quite funny there's a lot of mythologizing about a lot of this but if you take the chronology uh it actually paints a very different picture chronology yeah yeah it paints away different picture so few things you know one is uh actually the US was a very belated uh of the Quad countries was perhaps the most belated in adopting the terminology and vision of the indo-pacific uh actually credit I I would say in hindsight goes to a few people one is Shinzo Abe and his government in Japan who led a lot of this he uh prime minister ABI gave a speech at the Indian Parliament actually when he visited in 2007 where he spoke about a Confluence of the two C's actually he was quoting darashiko the The Prince about uh Raja time writer book on Shinzo Abe's contribution to uh to India Japan and to", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-46", "text": "Abe's contribution to uh to India Japan and to what what his his role in you know in formulating this yes so sorry no no it's true so so I think that that played a role the the second actually was it it created they were intellectual undercurrence and one of the people who deserves credit is actually sitting right here Dr radhaman he wrote a book called samudra manthan which came out in 2012 I think and and which made the case for the indo-pacific it was it it which is uh you're going to see now more competition at Sea uh the churn of the Seas that was evoked and and the other uh you know Scholars as well Rory Metcalf in Australia others who were sort of championship championing this idea up the Australian foreign Ministry actually defense Ministry and foreign Ministry adopted the terminology of the indo-pacific in their official documents uh Prime Minister Manmohan Singh when he went to Tokyo in 2013 actually discussed the indo-pacific in his speech uh there so", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-47", "text": "discussed the indo-pacific in his speech uh there so the U.S was actually a very late adopter even in 2015 when President Obama came to the India for the Republic Day there was a joint strategic Vision on the Asia Pacific and Indian Ocean region they refused to say indo-pacific which tells you how how late they were still worried about what that would connote and what the implications of that were so this idea you know it's kind of funny now to see this as sort of the indo-pacific is an American concept being rammed down the throat of because once America takes over it takes over right it goes into the driving seat even if they even they might be sitting in the back seat and might be in the corner or maybe in that baby seat in the middle but they become the driver of every relationship so so so it's just funny now to think back because they were actually late adopted to the the the concept the other thing on the ambivalence look you know the Strategic picture emerged in a", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-48", "text": "look you know the Strategic picture emerged in a certain way for many for many years uh starting in the 60s and 70s but particularly after China's opening in the 80s and 90s much of Asia became used to this perfect world where America guaranteed security to put it crudely and China guaranteed their future economic growth so they had trade agreements for China they had supply chain connections to China China was the driver of their economic growth and this Arrangement worked very nicely for many people from in much of Asia now they're finding that that is coming to an end that U.S China accomplished strategic competition means that they're having to make some very uncomfortable choices and they're very reluctant to have have to have to make those choices so we're seeing this already in the digital sphere on 5G Technologies for example we're going to see this more and more and more in supply chain now India is in a very interesting position because despite the growth of india-china trade actually India is one of the major Asian", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-49", "text": "trade actually India is one of the major Asian economies that is not as dependent on China as many of the others we you know we what we import from China is mostly manufactured goods what we export is raw materials we're not as integrated into Supply chains our economy is not that as dependent at the same time we have a in India we have our own strategic concerns about China including at the border but not just at the border but in the maritime domain in our neighborhood on multilateral issues and so for India it's much more in a much more comfortable place to have to make some of these difficult decisions and you know work with the quad countries work in the indo-pacific context um uh then then many of the other countries and so I think that what we're seeing this ambivalence that we're seeing from many countries in Asia actually reflects their deep discomfort and their uh reluctance to take what will soon be very tough decisions on many of these issues because I think they benefited immensely from four", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-50", "text": "issues because I think they benefited immensely from four Decades of U.S China integration you know Singapore for example recognize PRC People's Republic of China only in 92. so I think a lot of them were deeply suspicious of combination it's only when the U.S normalized relations with China that the rest of Asia actually normalized relations with China so from being utterly suspicious and the Americans said it's kosher to do business with China so they were quite happy making money on both sides as U.S China became on the same side against the Soviet Union uh restoration simply took advantage of it so for them now to as U.S and China begin to decouple themselves it poses what river said look really difficult uh you know situation for them because it's nice when U.S and China were on the same side today they're not on the same side and I think they they're beginning to come to terms with reality because one thing about major powers where there's U.S or China they discourse power is high remember how", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-51", "text": "or China they discourse power is high remember how the Chinese built up the Belton Road as the greatest thing since sliced bread so I think major Powers control discourse and I think once the US moved in and basically saying nice things to asean we love our sense centrality but keep doing what they're doing so I think the smaller countries will have to adapt in Southeast Asia because they have no choice very good point this you know like we were talking about being in the driver's seat it's it's America which does the virtual signaling and the others uh follow after that so you need that good from America why is it on human rights they don't do that with regard to China and this intense scrutiny on India when it comes to that what happens now now that there is suspicion between us and China their relationships relationship has soured to a certain extent how come the blinkers when it comes to human rights violations look I think human rights in the US is like our non-alignment it's an", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-52", "text": "in the US is like our non-alignment it's an ideology so there are always people saying there is a section so the U.S strongly believe in it but U.S is a power which has to constantly you know adjust between competing arguments within your country democracy noise is business more important or democracy more important strategic partnership more important or democracy more important so U.S in operational terms has always been a realistic part like otherwise more important right otherwise explain to me how did they do business with China and Pakistan for 40 years how did they they should look at the contradiction on the one hand they said you're saying Pakistan Raja watch out once we start on that we're not going to stop anyway so I think for them it is the circumstance it's the overall what you call you know take all the factors together what prevails see look distant like India for example when it's Fiji something happens to Indian population we we are pure position right about the rights of minorities we insist on doing", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-53", "text": "about the rights of minorities we insist on doing things but when it happens something happens in Burma we are far more quieter because Burma is our neighbor we want to deal with them so so is the case with U.S they can take a pure position on Myanmar or Burma where they don't have too much Stakes to punish Burma for human rights violations but with China they say no yes some sanctions here and there but we need to keep up the trade especially when you have a trillion dollars of trade I mean what do what do you do so I think it's what we say as a principle and what we do in practice are never the same so so I think it is they see if there is no competing interest human rights will prevail or sometimes it's used as a leverage to put pressure on someone the the contrast I often think of in the Indian context is our position on the Falkland Islands on Diego Garcia we have a position in India supported the Malvina they", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-54", "text": "have a position in India supported the Malvina they call it the malvinase which is the Argentinian Colonial anti-colonial uh Diego Garcia and uh New Caledonia you know you have very different you know you you pick and choose when it's convenient I can see on YouTube people Googling and seeing what was in your position yeah but but you know you have to balance where you know values and interests and sometimes sometimes you're most vocal on the values when you have zero interest no so yeah Falklands are far away we can say what we want about it nobody cares uh but you know similarly I feel like you know sometimes what the US has shown it has very little leverage for example on Myanmar so you know they from their point of view it's so you know the all they have to think about is democracy there whereas for India where we have a large land border we have you know a mill-to-mill relationship uh it's strategically important um you know you have you have uh you know", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-55", "text": "um you know you have you have uh you know flow of people back and forth it we have co-ethnic National Security groups you have to be much more practical and so you do have to balance it you know it's a good it's an interesting example of how you have to balance values and interests and like India is doing with regard to the Ukraine Russia War uh with regard to Iran is it similar yeah exactly so you look while if you know you take the historically we have always been mute when it came to Russian interventions we didn't speak up against Russian you know invasion of Hungary in 1956. Czechoslovakia in 1968 Afghanistan in 179 Russians are friends or the helpers on Kashmir in the U.N security Council so don't you don't criticize your friends even when they're doing bad things but you'll criticize the other party like we were denouncing Americans in Vietnam we were saying look how bad the American aggressions were but we would keep quiet on Soviet Union I think", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-56", "text": "we would keep quiet on Soviet Union I think secrets about real politic that you kept but today I think uh the Ukrainian question again the same considerations look Russia is a partner we depend on them for weapons therefore we don't criticize the Russian actions but I think what we're seeing today is India is beginning to adapt because as I said look out trade with Russia is very little compared to our trade with Europe and the US and second that China's alliance with Russia will increasingly make it harder for us because Russia also helped us balance China but if Russia and China Partners today against the West then I think Russia's utility and strategic value for us over the longer term will begin to decline but in the near term you still are dependent on them for weapons and we are trying to change that Prime Minister Modi talks about self-reliance and defense production we're not importing too many new weapons from Russia but we are trying to now produce more and more of the spare parts first did", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-57", "text": "produce more and more of the spare parts first did Russia move towards China first or did Russia move towards China after India moves the U.S closer that pivot when did that happen look I think until in the 90s both the Russians and the Chinese were loving the United States if you remember else in Europe Russia want you know Russia was trying to get cozy and cozy up to the west and they neglected Us in the 90s because they said they were going to be part of the West India was a part of the past so let's you know make hey with the voice and China was doing very well with the Americans so they didn't have time for us so it's really once Putin decided West is a problem and Xi Jinping decided West is a problem that brought them together and that had nothing to do with us but it is a situation we have to adapt because both Russia and China feel West is the principal problem therefore they need to pull their forces together to deal with the west and", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-58", "text": "pull their forces together to deal with the west and we are really Sideshow to that so the challenge for us is how do I navigate this new situation where are my interests near-term and long term near term we have dependencies on Russia but if you look at the long term our engagement with the US and Europe and Japan is going to grow bigger and bigger so how do we navigate that is a problem so I don't think they were responding to us at all because they were playing the bigger game and we get affected by the process right do you uh do you see that in do you see the view in in DC uh that India is trying to do this adaptation do you think or do you think that do they see us as doing some kind of a monkey balancing uh I think it depends who you ask um I think again no I think you know now at the senior level of government in the US I think there is a understanding of India's position that doesn't mean that they're happy about", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-59", "text": "India's position that doesn't mean that they're happy about it but I think they understand and they understand the Practical concerns um you know they understood that India had to evacuate when the war broke out in Ukraine they had to evacuate 20 000 22 000 uh uh Indian citizens Primary students from from them they understand that their energy concerns food security concerns defense relations actually um the number three at the state department Victoria Newland uh who's somebody who's a Europe specialist she was uh served in Ukraine's uh she was Ambassador to Nato she's known for being a Russia Hawk and when she came to to Delhi last year she was instead of uh berating India she was saying how can we practically help you with your spares can we talk to Eastern European countries about providing spare parts for into India so it's a very practical again approach somebody who who wouldn't know normally you think would have ranked India is that sorry to interpret is that one view that we", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-60", "text": "that sorry to interpret is that one view that we can't let India fail hence give everything no I think they understood they heard from India that we you know we have we have this dependence on Russia for spares and maintenance of existing inventory and um military and and I think the approach was okay can we practically help you with some of that so we're on a war with China and I think that is a situation so so again at the senior levels I think that that that has been understood uh actually today there's even an appreciation of India's position on in some ways which is you know India's helping to keep Global Energy prices low by buying Russian uh which is uh if they were not it would actually be adding to inflationary pressures both in Europe and the US which is politically quite sensitive they understand that say at the G20 Summit India played along with Indonesia and Brazil played a key role in ensuring there was a joint statement that mentioned the Ukraine war in it uh China", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-61", "text": "statement that mentioned the Ukraine war in it uh China particularly was very opposed to that at the time um so I think that the the value that India plays I think has been understood it's not necessary certainly been understood I think by the broader strategic community and you still sometimes see um you know criticism in the press and all of that but I think that's largely from people who haven't bothered to try to understand India's position when some cases can't put themselves in in their shoes and say you know what is the situation that presents itself so I think they see it more as monkey balancing this sometimes a tendency to inflate the india-russia relationship when you point out the trade figures outside of say defense civil nuclear energy and and space um you know so far it has been a very thin relationship with Russia I point out that they sometimes there were more Indian students in Ukraine than they were in Russia when the war broke out uh which is I think an unfortunate Testament to", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-62", "text": "uh which is I think an unfortunate Testament to uh you know what had been a very storied tradition of Indian students going to Russia um so I think if you if you you know present this picture I think people are very understanding of it why is it that America still has blinkers on how many more times do they have to be stabbed in the back by Pakistan to figure out uh that what they are doing what they are have been doing in Pakistan is wrong how many more times will they get bitten by the snake no my reading is somehow different I mean I don't think there is bother about Pakistan as they were till they left Afghanistan in August 2021. yesterday we have a problem with Pakistan therefore anything little that gets done with Pakistan we tend to see that as uh as a as a major kind of U.S commitment to Pakistan I think we've seen two things happen in the last one year one they gave some maintenance grants for the for the F-16 not new weapons but", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-63", "text": "for the for the F-16 not new weapons but maintaining the 40 year old weapons talk that they have second they've given them some aid for the flood relief but beyond that where is that flood Aid going I mean you know Pakistan so I think the real thing is look I think we have to shake off our Pakistan Obsession in a way because our economy today at 3.5 trillion dollars is 10 times bigger than Pakistan's a 3.5 Bill 350 billion dollars so I think Pakistan is in real bad shape right now they're only five billion dollars of reserves less than a month's Imports a Pakistan economy has never been in such a bad shape as it is well they'll continue to be a nuisance you know continuing to do cross-border terrorism Etc I think Pakistan where it was in the 1950s as a critical Ally for the West as a leader of the Islamic world as a potential major country in the developing world to one way I think they're going around with a you know asking", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-64", "text": "I think they're going around with a you know asking everybody for money that's not a pleasant thing to situation to be in and uh they found that uh the China could not reverse India's occupation sorry India's uh abrogation of the article 370 they tried to push it in the U.N security Council Saudi Arabia and uh MB mbz and embassadin UAE and MBS in Saudi Arabia the best friends of Mr Modi so this idea that the two Islamic countries would back Pakistan that has proven wrong so barring China and turkey there is very little International support for Pakistan but we must also not expect that Pakistan 200 million people with nuclear weapons one of the large armies that nobody should do anything with Pakistan you know we're not going to be in that situation ever you know Russian friends but trying after all the entire steam brand gone to show up the day before they invaded Ukraine so I think Pakistan's location gives it some importance which is the only reason it gets importance it's no I I", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-65", "text": "only reason it gets importance it's no I I broadly agree I mean I I put you know in Pakistan's GDP today is less than harassas and one Indian State it's less than Bangladesh you know you take your eyes off Pakistan and you pay the price for it I've always seen that anybody who has ever written do you remember the two times that America took its eyes off Afghanistan thinking it's a small country like you know Wag the tail kind of a situation but it does happen you know you can't take your eyes of some countries you know the the the certain ways I think where Pakistan is and we found this recently where they have I mean there's some counter-terrorism cooperation that they have now reopened the line to which seems um with the US so it's you know we went from zeroing out of U.S Pakistan engagement after August 2021 to something it's unlikely now to go back to where it was before but there is some counter-terrorism cooperation happening there is the uh the aid", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-66", "text": "cooperation happening there is the uh the aid uh relief there's another Factor as well which is a domestic political factor in Pakistan which is I think Imran Khan had gone so far in his anti-americanism that the U.S sees an opportunity uh in engaging some of the other actors particularly as the current governments let's see how long it lasts so I think that that some of these factors have are at play they see an opportunity I think you wrote about this as well where you know potentially it's not as if the Pakistan China relationship is now qualitatively different it's much deeper has an economic Dimension to it that wasn't there in the past it was previously military relationship but now I think USC is a little bit of an opportunity to kind of uh a source of threat to us comes from Pakistan's relationship with China a Pakistan that becomes subservient to China that after all the U.S did not give nuclear weapons to Pakistan it was China that gave nuclear weapons okay Americans kept", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-67", "text": "was China that gave nuclear weapons okay Americans kept turned the other looked the other way in the in the 80s and the 70s but I think I'm not saying take your rise of Pakistan Pakistan poses it real and existing threat to us even in its weakest moments it can continue to do damage to our interests but I think we as we need to manage that I mean that situation is not going to change or is going to change because U.S is doing something with Pakistan or Russia and China are going to be befriending Pakistan but I think that problem will be there because Pakistan's Elite is so deeply hostile to India but I think what I'm saying is the current situation the Pakistani Elite has never been as badly divided internally and as badly off economically and as clueless about how to change its economy into a more positive direction so those are conditions but we must never take our rise of Pakistan because it's right next to you there's no way you can take your eyes America had", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-68", "text": "there's no way you can take your eyes America had leverage over decision making in Pakistan to a certain extent but now with Pakistan and China getting close in Pakistan literally becoming a vessel state of China America's leverage becomes lesser that makes it more dangerous for us doesn't it it does in fact that's one reason at least some people would argue like it's good for us if the U.S continues to engage Pakistan to a limited level because as you know friends in Pakistan how much they do business with China their real heart is in London and Washington and Dubai and not just the heart but the other assets yeah other assets including Prime Ministers yeah absolutely so they are so eager to Elite level maintaining the relationship with the us so I think U.S has some leverage but I think for us one we have to devise a strategy that at this point how do we see the longer term how do we change Pakistan look that's that question for us can we make it a more reasonable country what can we do", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-69", "text": "make it a more reasonable country what can we do to reduce the threat from inside Pakistan and are there other ways in which we can support some of the forces sometimes or we engage all sections of the society these are different questions for example uh you know the current government negotiated a ceasefire agreement with General bajwa uh in February 2021 we thought things will improve further than Imran Khan undermined it uh so so I think the but I think the effort to keep keep them engaged in some form while being tough I think that is the new policy that the Modi government has done which is don't be defensive on terrorism if you attack me I'm going to hit you back which you saw in URI then in Bala Court second Kashmir is not for negotiation because I think the previous 30 previous 30 years from say 89 90 to 20 2014. we seem to put Kashmir was open-ended question open to negotiation but by doing what they did on article 370 they're saying look there's", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-70", "text": "they did on article 370 they're saying look there's nothing to negotiate here there is a new situation therefore you have to come to terms with it so I think what India has done in the last few years until the Modi government is to change the terms of Engagement that is we're not going to be defensive on terrorism we're going to push back or we're going to do what we have to in Kashmir so I think if we want to normalize relations on the base of Trade Stop terrorism we are open to it so I think our policies have changed I think today they're far more effective but I don't think there's any illusion that we're going to be friends with them in the near term but but we must keep up the strategy to limit the danger from Pakistan so this new situation on the ground on Kashmir and the new narrative as far as Kashmir and Indian foreign policy is concerned uh what is the sense among the think tanks in Washington DC do they accept it is it", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-71", "text": "tanks in Washington DC do they accept it is it grudging appreciation where are we where are they I don't think they care or how much of a you know it's funny it's just dropped off the agenda a number of things have happened imagine that right you and I have been seeing this since the 90s that to see a younger person uh who's saying that it's dropped off the agenda when I moved to Washington first time 2005 to seven first those people the handful of people who cared about South Asia there in in Washington think tanks cared about just three things uh which was basically India Pakistan relations and as they started managing particularly escalation uh there were a lot of fears about that particularly the nuclear Dimension two is Kashmir and three related to that was non-proliferation and and that was really it you know that was all they cared about nothing about the economy nothing about um today I mean there are still you know a few people working on that but that's such a", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-72", "text": "a few people working on that but that's such a marginal issue but you know I think a few things have happened since uh 2019 August 2019 which is you know uh coveted other other things I've taken you know so so now that's what under the bridge and uh you remember I mean every time a Pakistani foreign secretary visited India I mean it was such a you know entire media crowd yeah was so obsessed with India Pakistan what is happening the dog did they smile you remember chasing them in the U.N corridors did the meat yeah I mean we would go for non-align Summits and the only issue the Indian media was interested in was is whether Indian and the Pakistani Prime Ministers would meet rather than actually substance of the conference yeah so I think people the the kind of focus and centrality of Pakistan and Kashmir in our diplomacy has now completely gone six years we have not talked to them and nobody's even but not losing have you noticed everybody talks about", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-73", "text": "but not losing have you noticed everybody talks about did Modi get up and look at she or did she look at the first that the you know the two to tango everybody is looking at she and Modi I think that's not she and whether it is Shabazz or whether it's going to be bilawal and Jay Shankar it's nobody's looking at that anymore it's going to be just she and Modi I think that's what I think China question today is the principal question for India and what remains of the Pakistan question is a subset of the China question so I think the the kind of challenges we Face from China on our Frontier for our economy uh for our secure for our larger position in the region and in the International System China has become the principal problem so for therefore the attention rightly is focused on China well Pakistan has really become has dropped off our our radar as well as much as it has dropped off uh the American I think at the core of it is", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-74", "text": "the American I think at the core of it is the relative decline of Pakistan hmm I mean the kind of attention there is to get uh so tell me uh how is uh how did America react to this whole thing of Imran Khan saying that my government has been destabilized and they they brought it down and things like that America brought it down you know a poor I think he targeted Don Lu I think who is the assistant secretary who I think was a bit uh surprised at uh being uh singled out like that um you know you know it's funny it just it doesn't get as much attention in the media generally uh Imran Khan you know he did an interview even a few weeks ago so there's still pockets of the media that still give him some airspace but uh by and large I think you know it's it was it it did him it discredited him further if that was required that you know somebody who is basically uh espousing conspiracy theories and and like this", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-75", "text": "uh espousing conspiracy theories and and like this so um generally I don't think it won him any points but uh mostly again people don't care people are tired would America try to you know I I wish off a dictator push off a government at this stage like no no again I the the level of um you know uh particularly if you people who are at the working level in the in the National Security Community who dealt with Pakistan for 15 years who often knew they were playing a double game that working level and some of those people are now in more senior positions they're just fed up they don't they don't they don't I would go with that headline not fed up with Pakistan I mean again that's not to I don't want to uh completely dismiss again I mentioned a few examples of how Pakistan is continuing to make itself useful in certain ways you know one thing they've done recently is providing some ammunition to Ukraine uh so they they find ways to make themselves useful but", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-76", "text": "they they find ways to make themselves useful but the general mood you know particularly at the working level is we're fed up with these people I'm going to come again to the Ukraine situation uh rajat like um everybody uh you know at every meeting of think tanks that I've attended or You Know spoken everybody wants the same thing end the war end the war end the war do countries see India as somebody who can like at least talk to Russia to end the war is can India play a role I mean we never liked it when somebody said that you know can we mediate between India and Pakistan so I I can well understand you know when if India was to make the offer uh to mediate it would be rebuffed but can India ever play a role I mean is no no and I think our Minister has also made it very clear foreign look I think don't aggregate yourself look we want peace we want talks I don't think there's any illusion in Delhi that somehow we are the", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-77", "text": "any illusion in Delhi that somehow we are the Brokers of peace there's only one country that can make peace which is the United States which today if it pulls the plug on arm supplies to Ukraine Ukraine's ability to fight will go down and the Russians will only negotiate with the Americans they're not going to negotiate with the ukrainians they're not going to negotiate with the Europeans they think they're too too small so I think it's really uh it's really only the US can do it under this time no I think they're committed to supporting Ukraine and Ukraine's attempt to regain its uh you know territory from Russia but where did this ends we don't know there are voices in the US which are calling for a dialogue which are calling for a settlement but again the problem is that look it's very easy many Indians might tell Ukraine why don't you just give eastern Ukraine to Russia and then they'll be happily live Ever After Indians would love saying that but would not", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-78", "text": "After Indians would love saying that but would not do that would you do that no just or give our natural Pradesh to the Chinese exactly knowing nobody wants to give an inch of their territory and very few realize that I think when it comes to other countries so so I think it is it is we are not we're not you know in the in the business I think we're not we don't have a strength we are not the principal mover and Shaker in Europe but we have to adapt to that situation which is what we are doing but I think the US debate is worth watching because in Europe is divided you have the central Europeans who have a border with Russia they totally opposed to any settlement with Russia that does not give long-term guarantees what is the guarantee Russia won't do what it is done to Ukraine tomorrow to Poland tomorrow to Moldova so for them it's not just about you know Ukraine but this is about the nature of Russian they worries about", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-79", "text": "this is about the nature of Russian they worries about Russia's historic Imperial tradition so they worry about it but if you're sitting in France or sitting in Germany they say yeah okay let's find some solution but ukrainians are not ready to accept it so I think that leaves Americans as the most important interlocutor and my sense is maybe drawer can tell us more in terms of where the debate in Washington is at this point there seems to be continuing support but I think only they can produce the terms of a settlement and that's the reason why zelinski went to Washington to to engage with them Russians aren't Americans are in touch with with Russians uh the CIA Chief Bill Burns seems to be in conversation with them regularly there are phone calls between the U.S defense secretary and the Russian defense officials so U.S is the one which is actually on top of the situation we're almost at uh in one year since the world right so is there is there an understanding that this can only be", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-80", "text": "there is there an understanding that this can only be resolved on the table so you know three three points on this one is I think the fighting will continue this year at the very least the winter is coming to an end both the ukrainians and the Russians think that time is on their side the ukrainians are getting a new influx of weapons and things that the Americans and Europeans previously said were off the table are now slowly they're putting on the table so their their confidence is building up they had a shift in momentum late in the last few months of last year so the ukrainians think they have the upper hand the Russians are meanwhile preparing for another spring offensive they've mobilized 150 000 troops they have changed their commanding command structures so they think that they they can make some inroads so as long as both sides think that time is on their side and that continued fighting will be in their favor the war will continue they're not in the mood associate so that I think is", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-81", "text": "not in the mood associate so that I think is you know we should be sort of uh realistic about that on the Indian role I think realizing this there are ways no Grand negotiations and I don't think you want to to go there for all the reasons Dr atamon said but there are ways where India can make sort of uh tactical interventions and there have been a few cases of this so for example a statement at the G20 Summit which was working with the Russians particularly to get them to agree to a statement um working on the green black sea grain deal which turkey and the U.N primarily broken but India played a small role in in getting the Russians to live up there in the bargain on the denuclearization of um or not targeting nuclear reactors so potentially pow exchanges in the future so you know that if both sides are you know looking for an honest broker a third party India is one of many countries that they could turn to potentially if they wanted to so", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-82", "text": "they could turn to potentially if they wanted to so I think that those are some some of the things where India can play a tactical instrumental role but I think we have to be realistic about it finally on the US um you know broadly the U.S national security Community from their point of view this war is going splendidly which is that they they have no their troops are not on the front lines they're they're you know there are no American troops on the line they've spent quite a lot of money uh but it amounts to about six percent of their annual defense budget so it's a small you know from their point of view it's a modest increase but it's something that they see as degrading Russian um forces quite substantially uh so from their point of view this is a good this is looking quite good for them uh now there is a there is now though a bit of Ukraine fatigue particularly on the far left and the far right of uh in Congress in the U.S Congress and so every", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-83", "text": "uh in Congress in the U.S Congress and so every time the U.S extends another package it is becoming slightly harder to negotiate for them to say here's another 30 billion dollars 40 billion dollars that they have to come to and particularly now with the Republicans taking control of the House of Representatives the lower chamber there is a faction of about 20 right-wing Republicans who are generally opposed to continuing this assistance to the Fox News yeah so I think that that mood is that doesn't mean that it'll come to an end but it's going to become increasingly hard to sustain this over the long run and like you can't just do a blank check to Ukraine nobody wants a blank check but certainly the checks may start becoming smaller and um you're going to go into a pre-election year I mean you're already in the pre-election year how much longer can they stomach this thing you know expenditure and interest the interest I think is you know that's fine again because you yeah but", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-84", "text": "is you know that's fine again because you yeah but that's less of an issue again because they're not US troops fighting there I think the expenditure will become more of a question uh which is you know why are we spending 40 billion or whatever 100 billion dollars it'll be perhaps by the end of the year uh when we can be spending that on infrastructure at home on jobs or you know on other things the Border immigration I would like to what the U.S has gained for example I mean their oil companies are raking it in yeah and even to the even President Biden has won them but they're private companies and they're really making making it big U.S technology companies are in a big way involved in the world for example starlink Elon Musk satellite system you know has been very important for the ukrainians you have this new software called you know planetary software American software AI Artificial Intelligence being used to give you know better information to the Ukrainian soldiers to Target the Russian forces", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-85", "text": "the Ukrainian soldiers to Target the Russian forces so I think that is the second third I think NATO has expanded just two years ago president macron was saying NATO was brain dead but today Sweden and Finland which are historically neutral countries have joined NATO uh this war has helped America to put pressure on Germany see Germany had a great you know Americans were defending them they could do business with Russia and China but now they're telling the Germans you can't play Both Sides so I think German they managed to put a lot of pressure on Germany so I think it's multiple gains for the United States and I think this where I would say because Putin has been what he thought was brilliant a quick stop yeah actually has helped America there's nothing called a quick walk and yeah exactly but it has helped Americans and I think what he has done is with all his opposition with NATO expansion and the determination to push America out of Europe is actually helped America to consolidate reconsolidate", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-86", "text": "is actually helped America to consolidate reconsolidate itself interesting the NATO's dead bit one had forgotten that you know this is what was the The Narrative a few years ago and then NATO is dead and in fact some people had thought that quad is the new NATO both those busted now yeah I mean NATO is an artifice you know NATO came about again under specific circumstances during the Cold War um I don't think if you had to rebuild it from scratch today NATO would not exist uh but yet again now it has found a new purpose uh in some ways again a few years ago I mean I remember talking to Nato commanders and they were saying you know what is our purpose should we you know they were involved in Afghanistan they were doing Maritime counter piracy operations in the Western Indian Ocean and now again they they found a purpose again they've expanded um but I think the questions now about burden sharing right so are all the NATO countries this is where the pressure on Germany", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-87", "text": "the NATO countries this is where the pressure on Germany will come in are all are is everybody uh uh sort of contributing as much as they could and you know the general feeling is the UK France uh to some degree and then the Central and Eastern Europeans are but others the Germany the southern Europeans uh are not doing enough and so I think we will see that that debate emerge and not just on the military side although that there is that element but particularly when it comes to financial assistance to Ukraine the Americans are going to say look we are we are the ones spending all the money in Germany you you should be doing more so again it's not I think NATO itself will still continue to have these internal divisions um in particular countries like Hungary and others that have stronger ties to Russia don't want to see Russia push that as much into corner will complicate uh this um but I think you know the quad as NATO I think was always a chimera it was never meant", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-88", "text": "think was always a chimera it was never meant to be uh NATO I think the comparison is false um it's not a collective defense treaty-based organization it's there's no expectation in India that we'll have Japanese troops sort of fighting India's Wars on India's behalf uh so I think that that that was sometimes I feel like with the quad and perhaps we can pivot to that but the sometimes a lot of the expectations uh or assessments put on the quad are done by the people who are most skeptical of it it's always raising the bar uh to make uh to make it impossible for uh the countries to meet and then thereby say it is useless and so all these uh you know forums which open up these multilateral forums that open up uh there are the Skeptics who think that oh okay this is just a talk shop and then there are the the the conspiracy theorists who believe that everything is is something which is going to be a military uh you know organization of like", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-89", "text": "to be a military uh you know organization of like NATO uh do you do you think that too yeah I think you know we tend to either exaggerate or dismiss you know and there's one thing which never happened with Nam yeah which is the least most dysfunctional institution in that it never take the the whole enthusiasm for now yeah for example in 62 When The War took place very few online nobody in the name support in fact they were putting pressure on India to accept diseasefire they kind of said will mediate between you and China so I think the the the illusion of Nam and the we are leader of the global south I mean there is a long tradition going back to the anti-colonial movement and the sense that somehow we can build a new world in partnership with each other in the developing world or in Asia or in the third world all these institutions those who focused on the third world Nam didn't do much OIC which thought religion is the basis on which you can construct a new", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-90", "text": "is the basis on which you can construct a new world that has failed pan-arabism has failed pan haitianism has failed so I think so what will work bilateralism only yeah I think finally it is politics a balance of power you know that in the Gulf today the conflict is between Saudi Arabia and Iran it has nothing to do with religion yeah so I think it's really the interests I think when we think about international relations at the end of it it's really about interests while coming towards the end of this discussion let's talk about G20 since we are talking about multilateralism bilateralism converging interests diverging interests so with India uh hosting the G20 and how do you see the India U.S relationship in that prism then no I I think what India is doing with G20 this term I think we saw the sorry the both the G20 and the global South Summit we've had in Delhi last few days there was very little anti-western rhetoric yeah so I don't think India", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-91", "text": "anti-western rhetoric yeah so I don't think India sees this as going back to the 70s of Reinventing a third world again anti-American you know consolidation second I think that today the focus has been on how does India make its G20 leadership work second how do we consult the developing countries in order to make our you know chairmanship more successful third I think we've tended to neglect the developing countries from putting them at the center to in the cold in the post Cold War years we had to focus on the big Power relationships U.S China Russia we focused on a neighborhood we focused on Regional institutions we joined RCR and we joined a whole lot of region we built new Regional institutions like the Indian Ocean Dream Association but I think we intended to neglect them I mean if you ask anyone where was everybody yeah but today I think we now see we have good equities there and mobilize some of those equities not as an anti-American instrument but as the one where India can exercise some", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-92", "text": "instrument but as the one where India can exercise some leadership and India can be a bridge between the developed North and the underdeveloped South I think that is a more a positive construction rather than the negative construction of the 1970s so I think we we're approaching this very pragmatically very very practically and my sense is some Americans at least see that it's better to have India lead the developing countries rather than a China or an Iran or somebody else so I think they see it as an India that has strong presence in the developing world would also be valuable for them and then there is a it's not something said by any of our officials there's an element of competition which that look China has grown at our expense in the nam in the last 30 years so you want to bring back some of that influence back to ourselves uh drewa you're in DC so tell me uh uh America goes into election uh simultaneously as India and I think it's after what two decades or something like that", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-93", "text": "it's after what two decades or something like that that's happening where both countries are going into uh elections at the same time so uh what we have seen is that one year prior to America going into elections India ceases to matter it's always been the case whereas for India even if India goes into elections America will always be Central to our foreign policy to our uh our interactions with other countries that relationship continues whether the State Department officials change or not how is this going to what do you see going to happen I so it's hard to remember I think I would say one exception to the rule it has been the last two years which is you know if you look at uh every prior president after presidency since the end of the Cold War um they've really only focused on India in the second term and usually often towards the end of the second time so Clinton it was really the last two years 98 after the nuclear tests George W bush it was the second term 2005 that he offered", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-94", "text": "it was the second term 2005 that he offered the civilizations so it largely it was the first you know even Obama you know he did come in his first term but um uh it was really more on the second term that that there was movement in the relationship what's been unusual with Biden is actually the first to how intense the engagement has been in the first two years with India so it's not simply uh sort of foreign policy it could be because Biden is going to maybe a one-term president but uh it has been quite unusual that to to sort of engage with India off the bat you had the elevation of the Quad you've had you know a success succession of uh new institutions that involve India uh in in the first two years so I don't see you know again they will be the political attractions at home but Biden has a strong ended up with a stronger mandate in Congress than or less negative mandate than many expected so I don't think that uh unless there may be some", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-95", "text": "I don't think that uh unless there may be some personal changes which is very natural but I don't think it'll be India specific uh if it if at all I don't anticipate a major change before the election at least for that reason but just getting back to I think this issue you know I I think there are a lot of interlocking pieces in India's orientation the G20 is part of it the global South is part of it but it's actually many other pieces that are all now interlocking together and they're motivated by China China and China um and you know if you look today on any aspect of foreign policy today it is amazing how much it is not defined by but certainly influenced by China and in some ways that's natural right you have a global power in China that has grown on India's doorstep uh at a time when India has been rising rapidly and so it's only natural in some ways that it should come to influence but I mean just just to run through a few things you know", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-96", "text": "just just to run through a few things you know you have the quad with the US Japan Australia I2 U2 uh to to India's West the G20 um which you know sort of venue as India sees it of all the major economies coming together um the global new renewed engagement with the global South uh sort of uh what we know one thing and we talked about Pakistan but sort of a renewed focus on the neighborhood which where Pakistan does not have a veto as it did in sarc over over Regional engagement so you now have a you know connectivity we're talking about a lot of a positive agenda for the neighborhood that does not is not held hostage to Pakistan um but just even also on on some thematic issues Maritime Security today uh trade you know India the fact they endured withdrew from our sep but is engaging in now trade negotiations with Australia UAE which have concluded but now with the EU UK Canada um you know the there's a reorientation of industrial engagement uh", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-97", "text": "the there's a reorientation of industrial engagement uh digital um you know number of new initiatives in that front so you you Aid policy uh you know India's foreign assistance if you look at every one of these baskets now it's very much influenced by by China and and you know the Outreach to the US I think Falls in that broader category and should be seen in that light uh Raja what do you think sarc giving up on India or India giving up on Sark well I think if you remember prime minister Narendra Modi when he first saw Summit event in 2014 I mean I think they were hoping you know they had even forgotten about circuits only when mentioned I said okay let me ask you see remember that we had that the ministers had actually agreed on a you know more connectivity through Road and rail Networks but in the last minute the Pakistan Army pulled the plug Nawaz Sharif could not sign the agreement so after that Mr Modi said very clearly look if", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-98", "text": "after that Mr Modi said very clearly look if Pakistan wants to come with us we'll go with Pakistan if they don't want to come we will go without Pakistan which you know Indian Prime Minister said that before so today if they don't want to come you go with who you can so we're not no longer letting Pakistan stop you know by blocking sarc if it thinks it will stop us from growing trade with our neighbors they're mistaken and what we've seen happen as a group the trade with Bangladesh has dramatically grown yeah or the you know the waterways have opened up the old road networks have opened up the new railway lines being restored the old connections the pre-partitioned links so I think we are doing well without speed or without you so I think yeah so problem is for Pakistan does it want to trade with us at this point they say very clearly look we don't want anything to do with India they would rather go with China rather than go with India but that is their choice but", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-99", "text": "than go with India but that is their choice but I don't think India is any more worried about what about the Belt Road initiative one heard a lot about it till about two years ago uh pre-covet and after covet it's kind of you know the whole String of Pearls um Belt Road there seems to be has China lost I mean has the stomach gone for this I think so I mean I think at least on the Belton Road thing I mean I think it looked like it was the greatest thing ever to actually it has done badly in many places and two in our own neighborhood to countries which most enthusiastically embraced the feedback yeah the CPAC was Pakistan and Sri Lanka Sri Lanka which was so enthusiastic about Chinese projects that both of them are today stuck with unsustained they're just desserts yeah so I think I'm Global unfortunately globally in many places in Africa in Latin America there is a disappointment with the kind of outcomes from the Belton Road initiative", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-100", "text": "the kind of outcomes from the Belton Road initiative and within China itself I think they're beginning to question is advised to throw money around like this because after all Chinese economy is slowing down and they don't have as much money to dispense as that and they lost man and material yeah exactly in Pakistan even Europe was very keen on this and they were very uh bro uh these activities of the world why why was Europe so Keen I think they saw there was a need for infrastructure um they sometimes for good reasons some of the institutional lenders um and the traditional lenders had very high standards for what was required and that sometimes meant that they didn't Finance projects that uh some of these countries wanted so sometimes the leaderships of these countries wanted and so they saw in China a very easy alternative and uh sometimes and unfortunately I think there still is disability I think it's not over yet where certain leaderships will say look we know it it will come with hidden strings attached but that's for", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-101", "text": "it will come with hidden strings attached but that's for a future leader to deal with so we'll we'll take we'll take the The Bird in Hand rather than uh the promise the empty promise or the high onerous requirements of the World Bank or another lender so I think that that is that is still a game um we have seen a dwindling of Bri related uh outward financing uh some of it related to China's Euro covet policy but if you look at where it has been most successful it was actually in in Russia in fact in some energy Investments very major energy investments in Russia uh even Pakistan hasn't gone so well but they're the thermal power projects again uh did come up quite quickly the problem there was Pakistan didn't do electricity reform and wasn't able to actually transfer some of the cost to Consumers and that actually settled them with further debt but the highway Railway projects have often become stuck because of local issues so again I don't think it's going to go away completely I", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-102", "text": "don't think it's going to go away completely I think there'll be there'll still be attempts by China to invest in strategically important port um which have a potential dual use uh facility that will continue um but uh again it's not I think we'll see a much more restrained uh Focus the less of a focus on hard infrastructure more on the digital they're trying to offer now space you know new domains they will try and offer this alternative but again I'm a bit worried about I still feel like in many developing countries there is still um the sort of easy particularly those that are farther away that don't have this to have to bear the Strategic consequences they they're still in they still look at China as a potential alternative there's been an elite capture I mean I think in many developing countries they've cultivated their leads and you know how the kind of particular methodology which because those guys have the control of the narrative also there and that you pass on the cost to the people that's what", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-103", "text": "you pass on the cost to the people that's what Sri Lanka which is what the rajapakshas did and the previous opposition government as well they said look okay you accept inflated cause and presuming that it will all work itself out but today they settle with the debt and I think that resistance to this kind of uh you know just giving the Chinese anything they want looks good in the near term but the longer term costs are beginning to become manifest and like a Sri Lanka's phone now China is not willing to work with India Japan and the other debtors to restructure the debt they say take more money and give me more assets yeah so I think that policy I think given Sri Lankans are resenting it but they stuck with or with China and I think commitments that they've made in the past yes uh so finally Raja uh this year is going to have there's a host of events which are going to take place because of G20 what are the challenges that you", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-104", "text": "because of G20 what are the challenges that you see is it just going to be one event from the other or is India going to benefit uh from hosting all these events um because the opposition is turning around saying so is it a tamasha talk shop what is the what is the near-term and long-term benefits of hosting the G20 look I think some of them are going to be useful some of them are not I mean I think for example uh you know the for example the Shanghai cooperation organization right I think our differences with China are so deep on the region so we will try and limit those differences but use it for diplomatic engagement with the centralization states the G20 everybody is going to be here so in some senses you're really beginning to engage with the global governance in a in a fundamental way but I think on the question of using G20 for domestic political purposes I think one of the things Mr Modi has done from the beginning was look you must take", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-105", "text": "has done from the beginning was look you must take foreign policy to the masses you remember the the insistence on hosting you know we saw Xi Jinping being hosted so I think from the beginning unlike the traditional leaders in India Delhi he saw look the value of taking foreign policy to Beyond Delhi yeah 50 cities or something this one of course yeah but but even before this Indonesia I believe tried uh doing it in several cities 23 cities or 33 cities or something like that the G20 when they had it but they couldn't manage but maybe because of covet or whatever but uh we are going to be taking it in you know so I think that's showcasing yeah showcasing I think foreign policy for domestic benefit I mean I mean you can't blame political leaders for trying to take advantage but I think the but this was not meant only for G20 as I said from 2014 I mean Goa we had the brics summit yeah we had this whole things being distributed around the country", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-106", "text": "we had this whole things being distributed around the country so that you get a wider popular participation to that extent I think Modi content has linked to domestic politics and foreign policy and diaspora right the engagement with uh with the expat that that used to be like when foreign ministers went or when uh Prime Ministers went abroad that was like this one Sideshow which used to happen now now they are like a major part of your engagement in any country that we engage with like when the Prime Minister travels or the foreign minister travels remember when we were growing up it was said brain drain um if you go back to the until the night until watch by government which was game in 1998 the general tendency was look these guys abandoned Mother India they have given up you know we paid for their education look at them they're going out they're going outside to one where now you're owning them and saying look they're they're assets to India they're not a brain drain but they're a", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-107", "text": "India they're not a brain drain but they're a brain gain I even remember a time where uh if you were a doctor and you had super specialization you had to get special permits to leave the country you could not they would not give you a visa to leave the I mean not Visa you couldn't leave the country you needed permission uh if you had uh that's a big change I think what uh watched by government started the you know Ramadan begin all that started under vajpay so they flipped nehru's policy nehru said look wherever you are you are citizens of the country we might have cultural contacts but nothing more to BJP which started saying no the children of Mother India belong to Mother India yeah we're going to engage them far more intensively and I think Mr Modi has taken it to a very very higher level where making it integral to uh India's foreign policy so when you interact with Indians in America is there a vibrant interaction that or uh more what should I say more deeper", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-108", "text": "that or uh more what should I say more deeper interaction that they seek with Indian with India I think this is at least with the US there's a generational divide so those who are first generation still have contacts India they often studied here they grew up here often you don't speak language they still have friends family back here back in India so you know for them it is a much more emotional connection many of them want to do more for the US India relationship they're very engaged sometimes they don't know what they ask you know what what can we do what should we do um but they're also very divided in the city of the diaspora and again in the US particularly they're divided by geography they're divided by uh language and they're often divided also by profession so you have you know the I.T people the medical the doctors the hoteliers so sometimes they're not as unified as as one might imagine the other challenge I think is the newer Generations those who are born in the US who", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-109", "text": "Generations those who are born in the US who do ABCDs but I think I mean again with some exceptions this is not true across the world but the general Trend I think is they don't have the same kind of emotional attachment to India okay many times they've grown up I think it's become easier now but many of them wanted to uh adopt all the trappings of americanism they wanted to to actually distance themselves culturally and emotionally from from India many of them have visited of course but they don't have the same kind of emotional attachment and I think that that will be in future the minister generation the just coming of age but dealing with second third generation Indian Americans is going to be a very different type of Challenge and how to get them keep them engaged and how to keep up their understanding of I mean yeah they've been some efforts at trying to to do that with a pretty private you know philanthropic initiatives to engage with them but I think I censor that over over the", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-110", "text": "them but I think I censor that over over the next few decades will be a bit of a challenge but but just get back quickly to the G20 thing I think you know in addition to the the show peace items I think there are some substantive aspects to it as well and briefly you know that you know this is an opportunity with India as the chair to highlight a few issues that otherwise do not get highlighted on the G20 or International Photo so multilateral development reform um I think we'll see a lot more of that in the next few months um uh sustainability and the green economy particularly from the developing World perspective will be another major thrust uh digital public goods like showcasing in India model for that and again particularly for the developing world so I think that this is an opportunity to actually get some of these substantive issues on the agenda a debt relief sustainable debt relief and again that's targeted both at the West which has its own issues and China as well which", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-111", "text": "which has its own issues and China as well which are so again this is an opportunity in that sense to put some of these on the essentially on the agenda so I don't think it's just about the the events itself but I think there is a very important looking ahead I mean I think the problem with China now we've gone through third winter it's happening now on the Himalayas where the troops are face to face with Chinese at 17 000 feet Now Chinese are expanding that to the Eastern sector so I think our China problem is I think going to get more acute it also means that India needs to find a way to deter Chinese actions there I would say India's case for India's stronger partnership with the U.S and Japan and Europe is only going to grow so I would say the real action is not in the multilateral you know you'll have the sco you'll have the G20 you have all this stuff that's fine but the real stuff is going to be how does India strengthen itself", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-112", "text": "is going to be how does India strengthen itself to cope with the Chinese Challenge and the answer to the China problem whether we like it or not is in the U.S he's in Europe he's in Japan and they how quickly can we translate the broad agreements into concrete capability building within India can we build the weapons necessary quickly to data China are those I think that is going to be the biggest issue in my sense is we're going to see a lot more action on India U.S front and India France front or to see how India's defense capabilities can be built to deal with the Great China Challenge a lot of Engagement or more engagement in the next year and two years just before the elections because that you know everything goes into a freeze mode but I think there are major events before that yes I love the issue in this both a challenge and an opportunity a lot of things are happening in the private sector it's no longer the government's playing the role because you know the technology is owned", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-113", "text": "playing the role because you know the technology is owned by the private sector the financing is in the hands of Wall Street or you know institutional investors and so I think one of the challenges the governments are dealing with is look we now have the broad political agreements in place but how can we actually incentivize you know a private American company or european company to move its Supply chains or part of its Supply chains to India right so you have to create these incentive structures and that I think is where a lot of them yeah when the mechanisms get into place then you know things will move thank you very much gentlemen thank you for spending time here on the podcast and uh explaining things which are a little confusing when it comes to Foreign Relations especially India us thank you for having us wonderful talking to you thank you thanks thank you very much for listening or watching this edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "80c10089bd6d-114", "text": "subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste thank you [Music]", "source": "XiFT51z-zyk"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-0", "text": "officers retired found an animal that had come up and a society was made to get the permissions kargil was attached to it was not meant for them kargil was only a facilitator was there a military coup somebody imagined a thing like that in the journalistic world the cover-up started with the Congress because they had more to hide than what what would have been there there were bunkers where you find things which shouldn't have been there you found women's clothings they were raped everywhere that was the way to subjugate intellectuals were short the reason was deeper the reason was how to protect mujib without Muji Bangladesh was nothing TSD it was all human intelligence I wanted to do something and that's why I said had this agency stayed you would have found a difference the PM of that time was not interested in finding out ni podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is former Chief of Army staff General V K Singh who's also the recipient of the param vishesh Seva medal", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-1", "text": "the recipient of the param vishesh Seva medal ATI vishisht Seva medal yudh Seva medal he comes from a family of soldiers and has seen action in the 1971 war and was witness to genocide by the Pakistan Army on East Pakistan General Wiki Singh was witness to the genocide perpetrated by Pakistani forces in East Pakistan he was part of the Indian peacekeeping force in Sri Lanka fighting the ltte he was posted in Jammu and Kashmir but there were some controversies in his career too a fake news item of a coup during his tenure as Army Chief the newspaper never withdrew the story even though the Army denied it about a succession battle during his tenure of a clandestine unit which he set up which allegedly snooped on government servants all of which were never proven General Singh joined the India against corruption movement with Anna hazari but moved on to the BJP which again came in for some controversy try as hard as he made to avoid", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-2", "text": "controversy try as hard as he made to avoid it willy-nilly General Singh gets into the eye of the storm currently his minister of State in the ministry of Road Transport and highways and Ministry of civil aviation in the second term of the Modi government in conversation with General V K Singh is my colleague Ajit Dubai who's the editor of national security at Ani gelsing welcome to the podcast Ajit and I have a whole lot of questions we're very honored that you've come despite Parliament session being on um I'll begin with the current hats that you're wearing the highways project I mean as per data available your government has added over 8 000 kilometers in The Current financial year uh making it an average of 24 kilometers per day but there's also these projects which are running behind schedule I think about 40 percent of the projects over the years they've been running behind schedule so can you just give me an update as to where we are and how soon can we expect that these hurdles", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-3", "text": "and how soon can we expect that these hurdles will be uh overcome let me make a little correction gee last three years if you take it is 26.5 kilometers a day then was 35 Point something per day now we are on to 28 point something per day okay now the progress of uh any road project depends on couple of things one is your land acquisition we are not starting the project uh this decision we took about uh four years four years back no project to be started without 90 to 95 percent land in our hand okay then only the progress can be done so some of the projects which started earlier where we had ran ran into land problems project will get little delayed the second is what we are also looking at is there are various materials that are utilized you require Earth for you know raising the level we require Stones you require aggregate now availability of this also makes a difference for example if you were to if you had a project in Assam and further north east aggregate is not available if you", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-4", "text": "and further north east aggregate is not available if you have a project in undermans aggregate is not available what do you do do you go 200 kilometers to get aggregators too costly so you have to find other methodologies which we are doing now we are doing soil stabilization there are a lot of players who have come into the market for soil stabilization and after that you can do the needful uh when you make roads which are concrete or as we call them rigid uh surface so their availability of cement creates a problem unfortunately and this is what I think nitin has said time and again two industries which do not cooperate one is steel and other is cement they formed cartilage now as a common person I would feel if there are cement industry you are let's say producing your production cost for cement is let's say X you take 10 percent over it you take 12 percent over it but you've got a fixed customer in the National Highway give it to them that doesn't happen we get", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-5", "text": "give it to them that doesn't happen we get at the same market price the cost goes up okay so uh and import is not an option input will also be costly how will import be cheaper I mean how can you I mean when you're manufacturing cement air how do you start importing uh cement so today uh to get these projects uh which slide delays are there you're sorting out land problems there are certain places where the environmental issues come in and by environment I mean Forest I don't know if you know it let's say you make a road and we and we do Plantation the side of the road it becomes deemed Forest if I want to cut that tree after 10 years I cannot cut it I require Forest permission for that now State Forest Forest departments they create maximum issues okay in the center we are able to sort it out but maximum issues come up at that time we are going out of our way to ensure that we are as alive as any other environmentalist to look after environmental and Forest", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-6", "text": "any other environmentalist to look after environmental and Forest issues we have created elevated sections so that the animals can pass below we are creating tunnels so that animals can go over we are doing all possible things where the security and safety of animal life is concerned right but there's also you know people get annoyed I guess it's also lack of um lack of easy access to express space now this is an international thing that Expressway is so but you know Indians or people from developing nations think that we should be able to take our bullic art also on that we should be able to enter a road the view is like that and I think people don't know the difference between also an expressway and a highway and a toll system where you know the thing is that we contributed the land and now you're charging so much so how how do you go over this get over this hurdles the problem is always the expressway why do you call it Expressway because you want people to travel faster you", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-7", "text": "Expressway because you want people to travel faster you want people to travel a speech of 120 or even higher any slow traffic will result in massive accidents so you don't want any unnecessary traffic to come onto the expressway highways is okay we can provide that now where the uh let's say the common farmer he wants to go let's say 20 kilometer he wants to travel on that Expressway then the whole meaning of Expressway goes away let's let's take for example the Delhi Merit Expressway yes everybody wants to come on to the expressway what will happen to the road will it achieve the purpose for which it has been made today between ghaziabad and meerut it takes just about half an hour if you want to come to Delhi 40 minutes to an hour that will go then we will say oh well why did you make this road earlier it used to take so much of time it is still taking so much it's necessary to educate the people about the reasons right problem is different problem is", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-8", "text": "people about the reasons right problem is different problem is people a lot of them know what is happening but everybody wants to play the ball you know okay let's see if it happens because any entry onto the expressway yeah further enhances the price of land adjoining the expressway yes so people are looking at that correct that they are not looking at the traffic they are not looking at what will be the consequences subsequently and also you mentioned accidents you know it's it's kind of shocking that we lose about a hundred thousand citizens on on roads how to make our roads safe because many of us have friends and relatives who live abroad and the first question they ask is can we take a road trip can we do this I mean many of us are doing road trips with our families but there is that fear when you see the statistics it is uh kind of Statistics are bad we had one lakh 50 000 about five years back every year more than Corona one lakh 50 000 in five", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-9", "text": "more than Corona one lakh 50 000 in five lakh accidents per year now most of the actually puts in perspective more than Corona deaths we lose people on our roadways what the issue is when you want to do things now we have been representing ourselves in the U.N also and statistics we have said that we will bring it down we have put in measures you know education enforcement engineering both of Road and the other things where the road is concerned we can do it where education is concerned it has to become everybody's in effort just one Ministry trying to do it it is not going to reach everybody so signages potholes yes it's a continuous process and then if you ask somebody will say it is a state's problem you ask the state they'll say it is not us it is the national national highway is concerned it is my ministry's problem okay and we take care of that that is where the tall goes when we charged it all actually the concept of tall when", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-10", "text": "we charged it all actually the concept of tall when it started in the world was that if you want something better you pay for it right and so to ensure the quality of road to ensure that it remains at the same state you require constant putting in the money now unlike uh let's say a projected sanctioned project is over after that that is how do you maintain it yeah which happens with most of the government facilities if you don't cater first and that is where the tall comes in handy you have the money and let me only share with you some of the experiences which people have shared with me without my asking them so we travel from trivandrum to Delhi it took us so much of time and what a pleasure it was yeah so if somebody tells you they want to take a road trip tell them do take a route right no problem sir since we are talking about roads and your ministry also deals with the construction construction of roads in the All Along The Lac you", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-11", "text": "construction of roads in the All Along The Lac you have been in the Army sir there were times when we were not building any infrastructure in the forward areas what is the status today how uh how uh well are we prepared uh vis-a-vis China and what have been the achievements in that sector so let me uh say that a great amount of effort has been put on to this particular field of having a strategic roads if you would recall till between 2010 and 2012. we used to talk of having finalized 75 different projects that was there in every Parliament question right 75 different questions projects work started on them in 2014. most of them are complete most of them are complete what was envisaged at that time that is the achievement in addition to that much more is happening trans arunachal was talked of it was uh talked off and then a lot of people said oh it is not possible what will happen we have started the project it's a huge project what is the if you can explain will", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-12", "text": "huge project what is the if you can explain will link all the values see at the moment all your connectivity in arunachal is through the valleys now how do you do intervalue movement you will come down find the suitable place from where you turn back into the next Valley this one will link all the values and not very far away from the borders so it will provide a great amount of strategic flexibility as well as developmental Initiative for inter Valley work and for people to you know find it much easier so this was not done earlier gelsa because of what reason why was this one was it the was it the nervousness because it is close to the Chinese boundary was it was it that one one I think has been that second has been uh you already have a connective from Place A to B why do you want to link the valley no the thinking was he has been talking of it for a very long time right but uh the uh government of the day for almost 10 years they", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-13", "text": "uh government of the day for almost 10 years they never appreciated this side and expenditure is immense right expenditureism but then you have to be Innovative you require a person like yeah who can innovatively work out in in a public private partnership as to how a thing can be done you know when you talk about expenditure I have to talk about the airports and the connectivity in the Northeast you know um fabulous work which is being done there and you know that's the other hat that you wear of civil aviation uh it's considered India's considered the third largest civil aviation market now I think 147 operational airports 188 million Indians traveling by air just last year that's like several countries population put together and you know that there was that I remember still when that um that slogan came up Regional Regional connections it's not going to be possible but now when you see the kind of people who are flying they're actually you're talking about middle class and lower middle class India who for", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-14", "text": "about middle class and lower middle class India who for the whom bus Journeys used to be difficult and used to you know people had not like you you see them even on social media commenting on that that I'm taking my mother for the first time ever on an aircraft and these are dreams which have come and you from a village too sir you know what it is like it's a big thing and see we must this way this uh I'll call it democratization of the air travel right and uh give it to our leader modiji to conceive a thing like this to say why aren't we connecting tier two and tier to three cities we have got many unused and uh you know disused uh air strips at various places let's start looking at them and so certain incentive package was devised so that initially when an airline starts into a tier two or two or three City you may not get that many passengers so to incentivize them they were and now as it catches on more and", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-15", "text": "they were and now as it catches on more and more demand is coming up there are places where some old Air strip exists and they come and say why can't you revive it so it's a it's a great thing that is happening you had 70 till 2014 yeah today it is 148 148 which includes uh two uh Water Aid ROMs and helipots it's it's a big goddess thing right so now I'm going to bury into the past or burrow into the past is better um was there a military coup during Dr Manmohan Singh's time uh somebody imagined a thing like that in the journalistic world egged on by some people who wanted to tarnish the image of the Armed Forces to count with a absolutely absurd idea like that nothing like that what happened that night in January January 16th 2012 uh uh about a week before that I'll go back in time and you will you will be able to research on that your issue in Maldives where there were all the chances", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-16", "text": "issue in Maldives where there were all the chances that ah the president is going to be thrown out and somebody else will take over we had that information in the army the information was shared at appropriate level and we were told no the it is it is okay nothing will happen but when you get information which is more than what is coming to other people you know what is happening you know that the person who is coming is not in our favor he might be showing that is in our favor and chances are that if this throat becomes bad like lost time we probably would have to intervene 1988. now I had studied 1980. I mean if you don't study whatever we have done then we are not worth it we had problems last minute things came people were running Helter Skelter we got little delayed thank you thank God by then of course things were better by the time we landed ultimately out there this time you didn't want to be late now if you don't want to be late", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-17", "text": "be late now if you don't want to be late you need to prepare your people so two units were asked so that we could time them and those are bad days fog no if I told them come to hinden the game is up which is the next best place Republic Day Republic Day parade is taking place they can come to Delhi if you would get the timings and when you ask people to move you should go through the entire gamut of activities that takes place go go to whatever they have to take it has to be uh you know taken from certain depos because everything is not kept with you everything was done and we were taking timings of these people of one unit moving from Hisar and the other unit moving from Agra that is all do nothing involved I mean whose don't happen by making everything public within the military also so but this kind of an exercise you were the Army Chief but for this kind of an exercise to do did you have the political uh okay for it you didn't", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-18", "text": "you have the political uh okay for it you didn't you didn't take political this thing for exercises you don't even need to inform for what if your intentions are bad you will inform your intentions are right it's perfectly fine your military commanders were on board absolutely uh a sudden order can we wait for sometimes I said no you will get a certain order in actuality okay in actuality you will get a certain order then you are you going to say at that time sir I have got a problem I went to bharatpad Depot bharatpur Depo was closed it has taken me more time so that was the time to sort out issues in the ordinance Depot ordinance Depot yeah because you get so you were moving Ordnance also at that time there are the missiles for your uh anti-tank missiles you you don't keep them in the unit okay you don't keep them the unit magazine they require uh you know environmental control uh storage so they're stored at a particular place now people have", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-19", "text": "they're stored at a particular place now people have to go and get it done now when we do everything in the Army we prepare people for actualities you don't say okay everybody is sleeping so it's taking more time you have to see that things moved in that short period and they had to be there in Delhi before Daybreak so it was a very big decision that you took I'm presuming that didn't you take anybody on board like when you do did it like the raksha mantra what for doing this kind of an exercise you didn't think that is firstly who knows who's going to give an order when for things to move we had the information the NSA knew about it had shared the information that this is what is likely to happen Maldives they said we will see if it happens now will you leave it as a professional I'm not talking as a professional will you leave it we will see at that time would you put your troops at risk to say would you play with the image", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-20", "text": "at risk to say would you play with the image of the country okay by saying that okay well I just got the order and find excuses at that time no excuses but are these exercises conducted regularly like this was there anything unnatural that happened that night nothing see the problem is if I'm sitting here somebody sitting outside can think that is unnatural why should I be here hmm it is where were you sir I was in Delhi I was in Delhi and uh there was nothing that was uh happening which which should have Disturbed my sleep when the report came out it came out in February this happened in January January 16th report comes out in the paper written about in one paper in one paper by three uh journalists who began the report saying that the government was trying to cover up what happened and they were flustered was there any fluster between January and February problem is when somebody is tasked to make a story all such things will happen the only thing of this person", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-21", "text": "such things will happen the only thing of this person was heading that thing at that time he had two clauses first grows was that he wanted to walk walk the talk show and uh his uh uh subordinates had come to me and I said I may be there I may not be there on a particular Wednesday I was not there now they assumed that I'll be there oh he's a big journalistic personality uh people should bow down to him you know that kind of attitude was there he landed for that program I was not there so I got a frantic call sir you are not there I said I never told you that I'll be there why did you assume that I'll be there so there was a lot of uh you know anger in this walking and talking was supposed to be around South block yeah but it's a a journalist will not accuse a sitting Army chief of staging a potential coup because you canceled an interview interviews canceled many many more things okay okay let me give", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-22", "text": "canceled many many more things okay okay let me give you a connection there was uh the principal secretary to the PM at that time this journalist started his career from Punjab and if you follow the career of this journalist he has been able to find places everywhere and they had to find something to stick on a chief who was telling the government let the system that prevails in the country be followed I never wanted extra time I just said the whole country follows only one law and that is your age is determined by your matriculation certificate I said that has been deposited now to find all other things when you can't negate it and you have to put something against a person what better way so us time you had accepted that age certification it was only once because the then Chief had promised he said because we want to settle the things Deepak and Sir like I uh like we all were very closely we have covered that issue ah do you think sir now after 10 years or 10 12 years", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-23", "text": "think sir now after 10 years or 10 12 years since that happened do you think this was not the major issue the age extension or acceptance of acceptance of your date of birth the issues were something else and this was a problem so there's no truth to it as Ajit Singh zero not a grain of Truth to continue with what you had said you know you blame the newspaper you blame the editor uh there was this uh at that time the RnB minister later Manish tiwari was the NB minister in 2016 he said that the report was right he gave a clean check and within hours of him giving a clean trip to the story uh Abhishek Manu Singh we who was the spokesperson of the congress party and I'm quoting he said my colleague was neither a member of the cabinet committee on security nor any relevant decision-making body in fact it was also clarified that some troop movements are necessary inbuilt inevitable part of defense mechanism basically what you were", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-24", "text": "part of defense mechanism basically what you were saying but to read all those elements uh all the other elements that is what Manish tiwari was saying all the other elements is inappropriate unnecessary and completely wrong this is what Abhishek Manu Singh we said so basically saying that what um Manish tavari's insinuation that there was that the truth was there in that cool story is wrong now you tell me that here is a political party which was in power which was divided in its view as to what happened that night because there is a section in party always which will go by what the actual facts are there are others who will hear as to what is what is happening and add their stories to it that's it and uh please I think one should have been prepared for such insinuations because one was told don't go to the court not once a couple of times put your finger on any state and we'll send you there as after retirement um this was before the January yeah before", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-25", "text": "after retirement um this was before the January yeah before I mean 15th of January or around that time is when one went to the Supreme Court because nobody else was giving a decision after all what was one saying look here here is the law of the country here is the certificate It is Well recorded when it was deposited and my my plea to the Supreme Court started with the first line was I don't want extra time but it was you know but the accusation was that you didn't want General suhag to be in the line of succession was too far below the acquisition should admit that there was somebody who was who was what should we place this Chief and that is why all this was worked out that is the accusation that is the problem General Vikram Singh that was the problem yeah but the entire thing right it was General Vikram saying and but see sir we we are in the civilian set up we don't even know which is the unsavory bit is what", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-26", "text": "even know which is the unsavory bit is what happens in Pakistan it is uh you have cases but they are not uh pushed as as this particular thing was supposed to you don't tell me all records there are is one particular age now you go and look around find fault find fault you find the application form without reading what is given down below that if there is a difference or a separate this thing between the age entered into the application form and the certificate that is deposited later the decision will be taken by the Authority is concerned before you go to National Defense Academy so if there was a change in discrepancy so one one wouldn't have gone and once you have gone there and you have gone with a particular documented proof of your age where was the doubt left after that when you uh you if you look at the record of you know immediately after commissioning when you come to the unit see from there everything was there it was well researched by people who were in the", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-27", "text": "it was well researched by people who were in the Army Headquarters who are dealing with this subject so for accusation of a coup it's it's accusation of treason absolutely nobody's going to jail nobody's happened why I wrote to the home minister when I was uh and even later I pursued it you look here this is what the thing is why haven't you filed a case of treason against a b c d e nothing has happened it has just been quietly pushed out of uh view all together who do you blame sir do you blame do you blame the forge do you blame the mod do you blame a congress party do you blame the BJP whom do you blame for this this it is a cover-up obviously on the media of course you blame obviously the cover-up started uh with the Congress because they had more to hide than what what would have been there so the cover-up started and you you don't blame the whole party there were people", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-28", "text": "you don't blame the whole party there were people influential people who didn't want a particular thing sir during this entire episode from 2011 12 13 14 till the Congress government was there one person who always who never said anything against you or your decisions was your defense minister Anthony no uh since I was covering that time there's a lot of talk that you are also a victim of inter the Rivalry between uh Anthony and people uh in the pmo and home initiators and I can I can vote for it AKA Anthony knew that whatever ever when I go to him I'll only be talking for the welfare of troops never did I ever make any personal Demand on it in fact even when the first uh this thing on the age thing started I think it was February 14th or something like that in 2011. I went and told him you decide I am ready to quit anytime that you say I was very clear in my mind that I'm not here to you know uh of course I have", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-29", "text": "not here to you know uh of course I have said this to him for some other reason also you look here if this is the way things are I don't mind quitting what is there being ding ding the chief is not the end-all when did you say this at the other time was it because of TSD no it was it was because of the bribe offer the tatra truck over that oh my God I'm going to bring ayari now into it how close to the truth was ayari the film yeah he was fairly close okay fairly close gents I'm going to talk about the episode of TSD uh it was this clandestine outfit Secret outfit that was created um post 2611 you decide what terminology you want to give it because there's everybody is giving all kinds of names to it there are films made on it um so you know I need to know how did you create this who all signed off on it firstly anything which deals with intelligence is both clandestine both secretive as also it", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-30", "text": "intelligence is both clandestine both secretive as also it is supposed to do certain tasks every every intelligence outfit that you take first time uh the discussion came up was with the then dgmi Rakesh lumba who told me that and we would came up because of I was talking about the Mumbai thing 26 years how things got how we could have done things better and he said well at the end of it the NSA had called the no I know I would call the Chiefs and said what can you do and they said nothing was not our mandate nothing nothing they can't do anything which is see after all you are mandated to say Military Intelligence is supposed to look only after this area other agencies will look after that area so that there is no uh Clash in my thinking any intelligence work would always have a certain amount of overlap if you do not have overlap then you will miss out on things so we talked about it and the idea came up that we should have a intelligence outfit which should", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-31", "text": "up that we should have a intelligence outfit which should be more human intelligence oriented should be able to have reliable sources on the other side who should be able to give you the type of information that you are looking for which is inimical to the country okay okay and information flow should become once uh this was clear then we decided that yes okay let's form a pilot project right because till the time you don't try it out you don't want to make it permanent so it was a pilot project it was a pilot project it was called TSD for want of uh you know anonymity okay and and I think the motivation came from rnaw okay so it became a technical support division it is nothing technical about it right it was all human intelligence and we chose the best people available people who had whom we thoroughly scrutinized in terms of the work that they had done in terms of the output that they had and whether they will fit into this for the idea that we had once we had", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-32", "text": "this for the idea that we had once we had chosen the commanding officer he was given free hand to choose people so that he has the trust see because any outfit like this it will survive on trust status why one professionalism but it will not survive in acrimony acrimony which stretches the seams of the organization they chose the thing they got all the support and they did a tremendous amount of work tremendous amount of work it's a shame that it was done away let me tell you the type of work they did had we continued with that a lot of things which would which would have become better lot of things such as hafizside many things I'll I'll I'll I'll not uh such as Ibrahim I'll not talk of any any names I'll not talk of for the simple reason that as the organization grows the intelligence and the other type of things will grow you will cooperate with other agencies and then the canvas becomes different okay so names are not important what is important", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-33", "text": "different okay so names are not important what is important is the type of work and mindu it was we were sharing our inputs where we felt they needed action from an external agency we shared our inputs we told them this is what is happening you better take action and Black Ops it stopped no sir what we had heard was that Gujarat Black Ops so who were you sharing it with because nobody else was taking action so who all signed off on this like did the Prime Minister did you did you have meetings with the Prime Minister on TST did you have meetings with the NSA on TST no no no why should I it was need to know basis with her absolutely but as a pilot project it is see we are sharing information if I give certain amount of information to the NSA I told him this from my agency now he was not asking which agency has given you so but you this agency is credited to having takedown done of people across the border also captain the PM of that time", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-34", "text": "the border also captain the PM of that time was not interested in finding out okay I'll I'll put it that way and let me also tell you I I talked of Maldives that information was from my agency not from anybody else and mind you assessment of my agency was 150 percent right they said Yamin will not to our line Yamin will go with China and that was not the assessment at the level at which uh you know higher decision making is done that was not the assessment at NSA level but this was completely human there was no Tekken in absolutely sorry they were accused of it the acquisition so you can do anything you can you can put up put a vehicle and put up put something on the again problem is though somebody who right from beginning and especially once he got involved in particular things it was in his interest to somehow bring that defamation thing now how do you do it who was not going to stick so oh he was swooping on the ministers defense Minister's office is", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-35", "text": "swooping on the ministers defense Minister's office is bugged and uh General VK gets to know everything he's doing tell me what is there to bug in defense Minister's office you could you could you could walk up to the travels Minister and talk to him what you wanted to what is there to be bugged I I still can't understand it so do you regret sir when you look back and say yeah you could you could have uh but you think not then you could have not done anything just relax uh go in the cocktail circuit just say goody forget about the nation why are you there what difference does it make you have reached a pinnacle in the service just remain there and after that just Governor yes but it was not the unfortunately that is not my makeup right I wanted to do something and that's why I said had this agency stayed you would have found a difference 10 years they would have created tremendous amount of work all our areas not just one whether everybody is only", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-36", "text": "all our areas not just one whether everybody is only looking at one there is another area every area was being you know taken care of are expertise was developing we had worked out plans as to how to develop that expertise we had with selected people what what they would do all is gone and uh anybody who deals with intelligence and one has done a fair amount of work in seeing things when you make sources sources like the most loyal dog you can have sorry for giving that analogy no totally understand he's a one-man person he'll give you the information or nobody else it takes time to develop that trust that I'm not going to give up on him and he's not going to give up on me the day that uh goes away you can't recruit him again so that TSD first unit you're talking about I'm talking about TSD and what they had created that network is gone you can't create that Network again people also say that it was a it was a kind of a a killing machine", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-37", "text": "a it was a kind of a a killing machine for the country and it was something that had to be done at that stage do you think that there is a need for a Revival or a parallel organization or a parallel setup to be brought about now considering that we have a threat from both sides see let's leave it to the people who are at the helm of Affairs on this matter it's a it's a very serious matter what you do what you plan what your aim is as as Chief at that time my aim was very simple these are my enemies this is what is likely to happen what is it that I can do to contribute towards that I can gather intelligence I can carry out certain things which will preempt certain things happening in my country all with the best possible Manpower that you have selected and all whom you could trust and they could trust you any regrets I mean you do say that um that you know you regret that that was shut down but there is a human", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-38", "text": "that that was shut down but there is a human element too we had uh honeybakshi on the show and he was and Ajit has covered all of them those who were part of that and the trauma that they all faced in their private lives that's something which pains me the maximum they were singled out because I think they didn't like the person who created I take it as personal their Agony was my agony if they spend sleepless nights I I also spent sleepless nights because I could feel their pain and painful doing something for the country they're not doing anything personal there's nothing personal involved in it hmm and it still pains and they had this they had trauma they had stress disorders absolutely I mean you drive a person to become a psychic case you get after a person you put wrong charges let me take you back of a similarity in Samba spy case what happened then our own people destroyed our own people made stories out of it here the pain was seen they just", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-39", "text": "out of it here the pain was seen they just wanted somebody to say oh the chief told us to Snoop on ABC that's that that's the problem so when these kind of things happen whether it was the samba case whether it was TSD whether it was the cool thing are there manuals made about that you don't lose confidence of serving soldiers think about what they will have to do next how do you recruit people on missions you've been a Commando no nobody makes manuals it is up to individuals to take lessons and see that when they reach responsible position they're able to do things right and let me uh quote you MacArthur who ordered a letter to his son saying that when you are in a position to change things change them when you are not in a position to change things accept them as they are and you must understand the difference between the two so it is it is for us Snoopy rice manuals these are these are all hair right I have to get to this uh part about", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-40", "text": "right I have to get to this uh part about the other xiaozing Society thing which happened where retired defense officers they and it was cam tainted they they had Flats out there it was meant for Cargill widows it was meant for Cargill families and there also it was said that you know you were blamed that you gave wrong information to the then raksha mantri because of your Vendetta against General Kapoor information was right uh group of officers retired they with the help of a h defense Estates officer they found an anomaly that had come up that the Dio had found he made a lives with lot of people at that time were posted in Mumbai slowly the things started more people gathered and a society was made to get the permissions kargil was attached to it it was not meant for them was of the army and all records we have gone into great detail right from the British period when the Cantonment came up this land belong to the Army the only", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-41", "text": "came up this land belong to the Army the only problem was that at some point of time error came in where a particular Road was seen as dividing the Army land which is not so and the defense Estates officer who was there he made use of it in the wrong manner and con for him to convince people you know land value there is that people fell to it it was to be 600 uh building I think by the time it was there uh 30 floors had been done six more were to be made so anybody who obstructed or raised objection and many did they got a fact they could have fled so from six floors it kept rising to 30. the the there was one political uh person whose whole family had Flats yeah so now 14 people were charged including Maharashtra chief minister then Ashok chavan criminal conspiracy then there were two Army Chiefs NC bridge and general Kapoor nobody paid the price for it and that time announcement was made that the former Chiefs are returning the flats back", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-42", "text": "that the former Chiefs are returning the flats back to the society or yeah and uh it's just sealed right nobody is using anything of that it's but what this is what bugs me now we've covered so many things we've covered the cool thing treason we did the TSD again no action nobody knows what happened now we come to others the third one so no one could give a decision that's it don't give a decision that it has to be demolished anybody but sir like we are talking about demolition but there were people who had no uh no role in no action in Cargill they were Services Chiefs they were taking flats and I told you kargil was only a facilitator everybody had that thing for kargil so you go to let's say somebody said this is meant for kargil this thing but missions will go through because there was an emotional connected that is the thing it was that is what the kargil word was used only for that purpose this was the", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-43", "text": "word was used only for that purpose this was the I think this was the first time that Services Chiefs like and that too Army chiefs were named in such a corruption and they it came out in public and uh no action nothing happened I I've got to know this thing as to what action why how but uh the fact is it was a whatever people will say but it was Army land illegal you know uh usurping the land and great amount of conivals between defensive States and the people who are the Helm of Affairs were able to get things into their this thing talking about all these things and um and the presence like when you became the Chief Sir uh prior to that two three Chiefs I started covering in 2004 and we knew uh like we generally had a line of succession at that time we knew who is going to become next chief next chief and then after that then the age issue came up they said oh he wants to the the to destabilize the line of succession that", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-44", "text": "the the to destabilize the line of succession that time I remember from your side there was this point that what line of succession is this some kind of a like some kind of a dynasty that this will come in that will come all that I said was that you made a line of succession now you want to fit things into it then things go wrong no I have what I want to I wanted to ask you sir now people news 2015-16 that thing was ended by this government this line of succession super sessions took place Merit and all those things came in do you think now this kind of a system has helped in doing away with like princes and kings coming up in the making you think this has helped the the Defense Forces I know succession will only use because if you had decided I won't Swan so so from a particular stage you started looking after that person's interest I didn't know that I was going to be Chief I'll be very frankly so many things can go wrong", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-45", "text": "be very frankly so many things can go wrong and I but then I I call it uh uh this thing that somebody placed me in ambala now when you look back you start thinking of the reasons why could why was that done okay you went to Eastern command till then Eastern command was considered you're not coming to Delhi after that of course there's been a line yeah there have been so many chiefs who did that okay but uh Eastern command otherwise used to be out of the succession scenario so you have if you made a succession thing then it is different still or this thing it was you know one didn't know what uh who what where nothing but yes after that succession things came in and I think this married thing that we talk of is always there as part of a thing when you considered people it was always there the only thing I think which the governments avoided was in this you should ensure that there's least amount of acrimony that's all so I'm going to go a little more", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-46", "text": "all so I'm going to go a little more into the past you witnessed the genocide in East Pakistan when you were there in 1971 tell us a little bit about that because uh you know I'd interviewed General Jacob many years ago and I had spoken to him about that and that's why I want to know about you because you were a young officer you saw what was happening out there one what did you see two why is it that the world Community just ignored that genocide see genocide took place everybody knows about it in fact uh mascarenas was the one of the journalists who documented it and he was he was a Pakistani yeah he there was a book also published by him the rape of Bangladesh and uh something like that 72 or something that book came out yeah we were getting information from what was happening on the other side we were also when you spoke to the refugees who were fleeing initial stages one was and large number of these people were coming into meghalaya", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-47", "text": "large number of these people were coming into meghalaya when you talk to them the horrors that they described supplemented whatever you were hearing otherwise no first hand accounts this is not second or third hand accounts when one went in they they were when you broke that first line of uh defense that they had they were bunkers where you find things which shouldn't have been there you found rape victims there no not rape yet you find found women's clothings what were they doing in a all male Defense work there were Mass rapes there yes so inside the Cantonment I'm not I'm not not even in the continent no I'm talking of the anchors in forward bunkers forward bunkers they were raped in bunkers they were raped everywhere that was the way to subjugate intellectuals were short that was the way to subjugate and when one entered the Chittagong and I happened to go with the party which was asked to go to chidugong Medical College It Was a Race Improvement Camp have", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-48", "text": "Medical College It Was a Race Improvement Camp have you ever thought of it I mean one only thought of these things in uh nazira did a race Improvement camp this was pakistanis doing a race Improvement camp in part of their own land which is East Pakistan had not been liberated I'm just saying this because for the for people who did not know the post 1971 generation who don't know about it in India and then let me also tell you when we were taking this business we were documenting them we were going as per Geneva conventions now you have to document everybody Pakistan Army yes and there was this uh captain uh must have been around 11 ish in the night and uh so he says do know how many people can one bullet kill so I looked at him I said why he said I've tried it it kills so many so I said what do you mean he says I lined them up and shot is he's saying in front of me civilians so just for uh just for just for this", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-49", "text": "so just for uh just for just for this how many people okay line them up let's see how many people will get it was they were they were treating civilians until then their own citizens as people with whom they could do anything they wanted to I documented all this sir you were the intelligence officer at that time I was it was we we shared it with the whosoever was there these people were taken for interrogation separately we were not doing the interrogation where was Geneva Convention where was all these things wherever these are war crimes they were never tried for it now somebody should have taken up the issue of war crimes but look at the world of that time except for one who supported you the rest of the world was against you well you had a seventh fleet sailing into way of the wall and we were working in a manner in which there was a race they shouldn't be able to do something before we reached so and so place obviously the concerns of that time", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-50", "text": "and so place obviously the concerns of that time for a country which has been liberated and they had to Grapple with that International opinion they had to Grapple with that they had to and and Muji was in there for for how much time did we stay yeah it was very simple the moment the Law and Order is established things are okay hand over and out you go by early March we were back I mean we were the last ones to come early March because that is the time that the railway track was being laid that karimganj area we came to kamila came to karimganj and off event that time was a mistake that we made I don't I I don't really know but there are many things that have come in the thing it is not just that somebody told the then prime minister that let it not be like the Treaty of our sales where the things will keep happening all over again so be magnanimous I don't think that was the reason the reason was deeper the", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-51", "text": "think that was the reason the reason was deeper the reason was how to protect mujib without Muji Bangladesh was nothing he was not in East Pakistan Muji was in jail exactly would have been hanged okay how do you protect it so you had to do something so that he's freed he's freed and he could be taken back to Dhaka that would have been the victory and not just the prisoners now these are all that I'm now speculating I'm not thinking at that time nobody knew okay okay for two years the prisoners were with us they were treated very well they went back hopefully they realized that Indians are not as bad as they used to think I know I can't ask you that if you were there now how would you have handled the situation in galwan and you won't tell me even if I ask you but I'll only give you a retrospective gee tell us what happened then like there must have been scholarships I'll give you one only one one incident okay", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-52", "text": "I'll give you one only one one incident okay and I think that will that can be extrapolated and we do look at how things are happening when I uh took over there was one incident that had happened before I had taken over your sir year 2008 okay so there was an incident that had happened where three bunkers of ours were demolished by the Chinese saying that technically these were in Bhutan okay opposite dockland area why have you allowed it I don't know who allowed it I won't commend it but the fact is they were demolished and I think anybody who thinks about the nation would have that rankling in him this is our area in the sense that we we are assisting Bhutan okay it used to Wrangle I'll be very friend so right in the beginning in my various visits and other things one thing I made it quite clear whatever we have made as defenses the Chinese started saying if this is the line on top of this then you can't make a", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-53", "text": "line on top of this then you can't make a bunker on the other side if I don't make a bunker on the other how do I see what is happening on the other side military logic is always kite you always fight and you always look at this thing they also understand that nobody is going to be here and make a bunker which is behind this so a very simple order was passing East income nobody would be allowed to touch our defense works and we had an incident sometime in 2008 where a Chinese patrol had come just like they come now 60 strong led by a major or Chinese Army and they had been emboldened by you know bringing down this bunker and they came and started you know holding the wire which was laid in front of one of our localities the graders unit nine Canadians new take it out they said this is new wire take it out this will not be allowed this young officer captain who is the looking after that particular post she got up walked up", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-54", "text": "after that particular post she got up walked up to this major very politely got hold of his hand politely caught that okay took it away looked into his eyes and said if you touch it next time I'll shoot you I think he said it very firmly but very quietly without any provocation but the message was conveyed by his eyes you're not supposed to carry them okay I'm not okay whatever it is that Patrol went back they haven't come to that location till now right okay now this messaging is very important especially with China if you go through all their things whether they fought in Korea or they fought in they took part in Vietnam they took part in various things go through that and you will find messaging is very very important they also do messaging you have to do your messaging look at this and no more sorry and I think we are doing it right so I'm going to um quote you in 2021 you said uh China has transgressed many times over the years uh with its", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-55", "text": "transgressed many times over the years uh with its own perception of the Lac none of you come to know how many times we have transgressed as per our perception Chinese media doesn't cover it let me assure you if China has transgressed 10 times we must have done it about 50 times now was that bravado on your part to say this Rahul Gandhi wanted you sacked in 2021 we will not talk about Rahul Gandhi at all but let me no I am going to talk about it let me let me explain what happens this is a the line of control is based on a 1959 map which it was a map as big as one page of a small book can you interpret that line on ground now when you make an attempt to interpret it on ground you will find it is cutting across various things it is not following what you will follow as a border it is neither following a Ridgeline nor is it following a river line there's no logic to it it's just a", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-56", "text": "line there's no logic to it it's just a line So based on that the line of actual control which came into being because they had occupied to a certain area and based on this when the unilateral so-called universities fire took place they went back to what they considered as their area and a line of actual control came into being the perceptions will differ if there's a mountain he will say no it's supposed to be I'm supposed to be here but when we look at the line we'll say No it should be here now this perceptual differences will remain because it has not been demarcated on a map and authenticated by both the sides unlike the line of control with Pakistan yeah so in his perception he'll come to a particular area and if we are not there up to that area he sits because our patrolling limits are different as laid down by whosoever was in the government at that particular period of time at times you will sit down all you'll say this is my area similarly", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-57", "text": "down all you'll say this is my area similarly we will go to those areas which we think is our as per our perception we may encounter them we may not encounter them we we may have a Face-Off where you'll say okay go back and all that and we'll both Stand and Show each other banners and ultimately as per the agreement both sides will go back but they have been taking son they've been doing salami slicing and taking away that's what I'm saying that that's what I'm saying that as per our perception we also go up to our perception he also tries to come up to his perception unfortunately when he comes up to his perception that gets reported we are not going to tell you if we are in the army look here I went there that's my perception that's my area I've gone into my area I'm not going to gone into his area so that is the difference we were talking you were talking about how this young Captain responded to this Chinese aggression now", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-58", "text": "this young Captain responded to this Chinese aggression now coming to the ongoing standoff sir you think uh we have dealt it in a way it should have been dealt with or more could have been I think we are dealing with it perfectly fine right from girl one onwards the and now now it is not it's not a question of uh trying to find faults as a question of following the principle I think we are following the principle right what we consider is our area as our area nobody has a right to get into it and accordingly our thinking must change that way that the other side is hell bent upon showing presence where which they think is their area if they find there's nobody they would like to come and sit down there and take advantage of it so we we need to be vigilant about it and we must ensure that we are firm about it and I am sure when we are firm about it things happen there's certainly what happens is along the line of control the", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-59", "text": "what happens is along the line of control the certain areas which are endemic they are the dis divided into two parts one is disputed area like in the middle sector you have then there are sensitive areas he's been saying this in my area we have been saying this is our area it is sensitive either where our people are Longview sensitive area so accordingly your responses are you don't want to unnecessarily create a flash point but you want to be firm to say this is awesome this will remain ours so that is the general awareness post this Galvan standoff and then we also started building up in a major manner you must have seen in the change in lay and the right up to the Border earlier from lay to chuchul it was in between there were very few camps now it is entirely covered with military camps everywhere there is Army things have changed now we also had during the peak of this conflict we also had this that weapons will be carried everywhere and if there is a", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-60", "text": "will be carried everywhere and if there is a requirement we will shoot you think this change was required to uh to strengthen the mindset of our soldier also and to give them a Stern warning that you cross over it is again it is messaging the message is clear we are not going to get pushed over I think that is all that is done and messaging can be in many ways it can be in terms of your firm action it it can be in terms of ensuring that nobody comes in it is also ensuring that look here this far and not further many things that happen and where Eastern ladakh is concerned he has been violative of certain understandings and agreements of the type of troop strength that he's been bringing into that area so in in their case hierarchy being what it is if they are told no no let's have a show of force let's let's uh uh do things which will show Indian poor light in the world and they should understand our prover says China they", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-61", "text": "and they should understand our prover says China they have this feeling that it was necessary that we also have etiquette strength and wherewithal so tell them look here don't we are not going to be pushed over and I think we proved it the opposition in the country still says that India has become a pushover and the enemy always takes advantage of the time of the week the weak spot like when India was battling with covet galwan happens and now next year we're going to be going into India is going to be going into an election now China doesn't understand it they don't have elections they don't have political upheavals and everything Army is not going to realize that's what I was going to ask you is going to do its job and I think they'll they have understood very clearly is what what is to be done that I think that message is absolutely clear and uh where opposition is concerned firstly they don't know what what is happening they just put two and", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-62", "text": "what what is happening they just put two and two together there are some of them only follow what the Chinese are saying or what the propaganda tries to say so be it and then you you can't you can't change them and whatever is telling you on how how things can go in a particular manner they see there are times when you you go to back to 86 happened okay they came and occupied it because they said no what you call sundrons who is not this sundrons what did we do we occupied all the heights around it they were below us and we were our reactions were fast a couple of months after this I think about two months after we would occupy the heights they had two people who shot themselves they were so they didn't know what what is happening in the middle of nowhere they see you know all the heights are covered by Indian army where do they go they were they were in a bad shape so they started suicides out there this is end of", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-63", "text": "so they started suicides out there this is end of 86 when they had their their roots are cut off you would you you can feel miserable they have never been that way our soldiers are much more Hardy and ah whatever transpires you will find it is a complete by lot of propaganda from that side they feel that propaganda is what will scare the hell out of you you where you look at uh doklam you look at now Eastern ladakh oh and mostly this propaganda is picked up by some of our people and this oh this is what is going to happen they take sunzu very seriously we also we also take uh our own you know thinkers very seriously so I'm going to go over to 1990 uh you know when you got this youth Seva medal you were in Sri Lanka you were battling the ltte uh part of the Indian peacekeeping Force so tell us about that episode of your life it was uh uh okay what what had happened was that uh we had a", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-64", "text": "what had happened was that uh we had a post at a particular place called the company headquarters were there and they had a post uh a platoon post and the supplies had to be collected from there there was a in the week at various points we didn't fix day and time so two vehicles would go get their supplies and come back somehow over a period of about six months we had ensured that we followed our way of conducting uh counterinsurgency and counter terrorist operations we had denied LTT entry into all the villages and all the townships they were segregated from people it wrinkled them and it wrinkled them so much that ultimately they had to and whenever they came they they had casualties and and what rank was were you at that time uh I was a lieutenant colonel I was second in command for one year and I was a company Commander for one year we stayed two years in as part of ipk we had very successful operations in terms of not only tackling", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-65", "text": "very successful operations in terms of not only tackling the Menace of what the LTT was doing and also building trust with people that was the most important part I mean you can imagine that when we left for almost 25 kilometers people had lined up the road not because we told them on their own they didn't want us to go there was no enemy sir in that way it is an Insurgency of fighting it's not a uniformed uh enemy like you in 71 that you were finding there was no enemy here so you're not I mean you are trained of course in the Forge but how difficult was it to do that it is it was very difficult it is very difficult more difficult than fighting a uniform anymore it is very very difficult because you don't know you had various groups there were some who were friendly to us and you had a predominant group with its own one or two allies who who wanted predominance in everything and uh I think at some level and which is what I", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-66", "text": "I think at some level and which is what I have tried to also put down in my autobiography that at some level in the highest level we fail to understand that agreement between the government of India and the government of Sri Lanka did not include LTT yeah there's no agreement between LTT and government of India or between LTT and the government of Sri Lanka so you left a vacuum which slowly depending on how things were going and there were many things that happened which resulted in pravachan deciding that I think let's take it out on the Indian army so we become targets I mean in the area that we were even before the actual hostilities broke out they had planted a mine which they activated and our CEO's vehicle was targeted he was like he's lucky only the engine part went away he survived he survived but we ensured that we kept the people with us and that is what made a difference right so in this particular thing they sent a team from jaffna", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-67", "text": "this particular thing they sent a team from jaffna to shore up the locals and to learn ambush and they identified these two locations because in a week some point of time these vehicles will go they were depending on the supplies and on a particular day they ambushed unfortunately for them there was only one vehicle these people are moved only with one vehicle so we lost four people in that and uh you were there when this happened I I was with the Battalion headquarters at that time when we went and searched that area we found uh you know thing written for duty this Ambush party had been there for three days and three nights hiding in the jungle so they were giving duties to see when the vehicle comes so on that little flap of the secret thing there was a a duty roaster and we found that there were six names out of this which belong to our area ultimately we had to uh find out where they were so are I'll say precursor of intelligence work started we were able", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-68", "text": "say precursor of intelligence work started we were able to get information it required networking it required confidence winning and it required a certain amount of cash in enemies on the western sector on the Eastern sector you've been in LTT which enemy was the one that you thought that oh my God this is an enemy all enemies are same have to be eliminated they ultimately you have to you have to protect your people from them right the reason I'm asking sir is because you know at one once you commented about General Musharraf uh you said uh as a military commander I would commend general musharra for coming 11 kilometers inside Indian Territory to stay with his troops for a night it is the courage of a military commander that he came so far knowing that there was danger this was Cargill time you still think that that as a military commander he was he was the he was the chief at that time he planned this operation he had to win the trust of the people whom he was", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-69", "text": "to win the trust of the people whom he was putting out there and uh for him to ensure that everything moved without we getting a hint I think we should at least give him that due it wasn't foolhardy you think Daniel's up see a lot of times as a military commander you do things because you want the confidence of your people as a lieutenant colonel I have gone in operations when I was second in command I shouldn't have gone I should have said oh I am I'm a left in kernel it's foolhardy yes it is foolhardi but what is important is the people whom you command must understand that you will be with them come what way you're not going to hide behind your rank and or other things that's why I said for person to come 11 kilometers inside and stay with the troops for a night okay it was foolhardy the entire exercise was fuladi not just the not that yes was itself without a game plan in mind without taking the money game plan what", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-70", "text": "plan in mind without taking the money game plan what game plan sir let me tell you go into the issue where the kashmir's two Kashmir issue as a issue was in the World Arena it isn't Cold Storage we had succeeded the line of control was stable nothing was happening and mind you this particular area of Cargill the line of control runs almost in a straight line along the ridge line almost a straight line anybody sitting on the line of control is actually violating it it is not being violated everything was okay now here is a Pakistani commander who decides I must break this long Jam what did he do full Hardy yes we can call it anything but he ignited the Kashmir issue all over again and probably that is what his aim was had he succeeded had he succeeded it would have created a major issue where we are concerned you know dominating our national highway and all the traffic between Srinagar and lay right and that will be we must give it to fortitude and", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-71", "text": "that will be we must give it to fortitude and bravery and uh of our people that we ensured that they were thrown out thrown out so um about the agneepath scheme you have defended it also you come from a Fuji family your father grandfathers your uncles five of your uncles if I'm not mistaken my father was had six brothers all of them were in the army I mean which includes my father all six Indians Three Sisters their husbands in the army uh my both my grandfathers from mother's side and Father's Side both in the Army so it was basically uh you had no option as far as career is concerned no it was my father my father had option we tried his best but my mind had no option right now tell me sir that lots of people are saying that with this agneepath scheme those your kind of families which which automatically sent the second third generation into the forge they will rethink and they will not send their children because it's I don't think so", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-72", "text": "send their children because it's I don't think so uh and I'll I'll put it across differently it's just about not even a year the batches are just about getting trained and going and let me tell you the training establishments are same which drain people otherwise they're going to put in their best and this material is going to be very very motivated material who have come now some may not be some may be already looking at it okay that's a more lucrative options but where the Army is concerned it will find selection to be tough you will find that people would be so good and it is also going to fulfill another thing which the Army has been wanting for a very long time lateral induction we've been talking about it for many many many many years nobody has agreed otherwise it was very simple proposition that was there earlier look here let a person serve for five ten six whatever number of years you decide when you're still young and let him literally transfer into border security Force into", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-73", "text": "and let him literally transfer into border security Force into crpf into cisf into police so you have a trained person already trained in the in the in the value in the values that are required and you then don't have to do separate recruitments to select for your this thing except for ah non-combatant staff that is what army has been asking for so that you can retain a youthful uh profile in some way it is actually going to bring in that now let's see what happens when they complete four years okay I I for one would look at it very optimistically that it'll be very difficult to select just 25 percent these people will be so good okay I mean it is like uh if you know first couple of women entry schemes that came they were so motivated they were so good that it was very difficult to actually find fault is not so today there's a difference okay almost since I've been talking to you I have to ask you this would you categorize me as a prostitute when", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-74", "text": "this would you categorize me as a prostitute when you talked about journalists see this word has emanated from a very eminent journalist in the USA and he said that whatever may be the worth of a journalist ultimately it is governed by what the owner wants right if owner says it has to be done this particular way just to be done that and he says when the pen is taken over by the grid for money things will go different that's how this word emanated and that's the history of this word we have found many in various shades who will do exactly what uh this American journalist visualize so in a particular this thing I have to use this word because somebody who was unnecessarily going on and on in a particular manner which was which did not to show a journalist in an independent journalistic manner okay and let me also tell we have grown up in an era where all the movies that one saw a journalist was shown as a social reformer a person who took up", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-75", "text": "shown as a social reformer a person who took up social causes a person who took up causes for people most of the time he was being depicted as somebody who was not very well off carried a bag always you know fighting against the uh establishment that has changed right today you do find that there are people who take up causes because it benefits somebody rather than the society so didn't you find those kind of people even in the Forge they're everywhere did you blame them also did you disable them I did my blame is not just for one one this thing anybody who's uh morals and writings and work is taken over by Greed for something and that greed may not be money but I've never seen you using this kind of term for a politician and I mean you've been betrayed even in politics by people it is applicable to everybody unfortunately a politician otherwise is also seen badly that's the problem I mean when I used to talk when I was uh when I decided", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-76", "text": "used to talk when I was uh when I decided that I must get Anna hazare back to where he was in 2012 when I gave him the glass of juice to break his fast after that he was dumped and that rankled me do many things Uncle me unfortunately so I went to him towards the end of 2012 when I told him I want to get you back so it made a small organization called jantantra mocha I told him this is what we will do I said I'll talk about systemic change and you talk about your corruption part we carried that way to many states and in that my thing used to be let's get more people into political system who don't have a political background then only we'll be able to change the system I don't know what people used to say why are you asking us to do this now that is unfortunately how politics is perceived so right do you want to continue in politics or do you feel that see I am I came into politics Not", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-77", "text": "feel that see I am I came into politics Not By Design I I just happened to wander into it because I had only one aim in mind I must do something for the society that one short serve when you stood on that Podium with uh Prime Minister Modi in rewadi everybody was like that changed a perception completely you know everybody was thinking I'm going to join the party yeah I didn't in fact people of bhatijanta party were there he said useless of joining here I said I didn't come to join I came as a ex serviceman to talk about the exercise this is the rally of EX servicemen but you endorsed without saying anything you endorsed him at that moment it made a lot of difference see he was already endorsed by the party there was the third day of after having been endorsed as the PM and uh believe you me in nine nine years he has done a tremendous job my endorsement was not wrong you're going to stand for election again in I will", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-78", "text": "you're going to stand for election again in I will you will I will because there's so much of work left in ghaziabad ghaziabad that I saw in 2014 has changed but there's more changes that are required I I just took upon myself that I must change ghaziabad and uh I think uh the change is visible today but I think there are many more things that have to be done to make it a city worth living in NCR that's it things have changed yes for the better I mean ghaziabad doesn't have the same image now okay and it needs some more push right if I was to calculate the amount of money from various projects that has been done I love to actually sit down and work it out so it's going to be your Metro coming you've got a the first uh rapid drill transistor transit system of the country is coming up through ghaziabad to meerut and we are hoping that the first phase will start very soon right Air Services started from there there are hiccups for a", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "9bbdf8c6509c-79", "text": "Services started from there there are hiccups for a certain thing but a lot more to be done not more to be done the road Network coming up there are many things which are more planned which will make things even better and that would bring in many much more industry in a particular area which will make a difference to the lives of people right thank you so much stuff for speaking with us and I hope your uh perception of our journalist improves after this podcast my perception was never bad okay don't worry my perception was never bad about journalists it is just that when one identified somebody who's who seemed to be motivated uh uh in his writings and his sayings for a particular thing don't use that word right otherwise okay on that note so thank you so much thank you very much thank you thank you thank you very much for watching or listening to this podcast do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste foreign foreign [Music]", "source": "iMSOOzzVa6E"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-0", "text": "to deal with the very difficult situation that accompanies China's rise in the indo-pacific and at the moment the the best candidate for that has is a Democratic president the uh Republicans have been a bit more pro-trade the Democrats a little less so but they're really pretty much the same now they're neither party is pursuing a Free Trade Agreement the desire amongst U.S policy makers both Republican and Democratic to have a stronger strategic relationship with India that historically there was a sense that the Republicans were looking to the U.S India relationship more it was George Bush that really brought that U.S India strategic partnership was a sentence perhaps that that the Democrats were were more focused on internal things within India my regret is that the bite Administration has come in and has continued that policy of not wanting to join the CP TPP and has really put trade off on the side Washington is looking to New Delhi as a critical partner and Washington is very eager to see India take a bigger role on the global stage this episode", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-1", "text": "take a bigger role on the global stage this episode has been filmed at the rice Cena dialogue held in New Delhi in March 2023 Republicans Or democrats who's better for India that is the topic with the U.S going in for elections in 2024 just as we in India this topic is very pertinent as there is a general consensus in both capitals and a bipartisan consensus in DC especially that despite significant differences bilateral cooperation is beneficial to both countries my guest today Martin Raza senior fellow and director technology and National Security Program Center for New American Security USA he has served as senior intelligence officer and Analyst at the CIA his area of expertise include emerging Technologies weapons research and development and counter-terrorism Leslie vinjamuri director U.S and America's program Dean Queen Elizabeth Academy for leadership in international Affairs Chatham House UK Leslie is a member of the Council of foreign relations and is on the advisor Board of the lse ideas and Ambassador Kenneth juster needs no introduction in India he", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-2", "text": "Kenneth juster needs no introduction in India he was the U.S ambassador to India and has held various posts in the U.S government including in the National Security Council and the National Economic Council currently Ambassador juster is a distinguished fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations USA thank you gentlemen thank you ma'am for being part of the podcast I'd like to begin with you Ambassador juster you have over 40 years experience in government Service public policy and you served as U.S ambassador to India from 2017 to 2021. you recently said that frictions and frustrations limit the potential of U.S India trade ties could you elaborate on that well when I was Ambassador of my commercial counselor said to me about trade between the United States and India it's never been better and in a sense he was right that it's gone up every year as far as I can remember when I first began worked on the relationship in 2001 the bilateral trade was about 19 billion dollars uh last year I believe was over", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-3", "text": "billion dollars uh last year I believe was over 160 billion dollars were in that neighborhood so it clearly has increased steadily and yet at the same time for the world's largest economy the United States and its fifth largest economy India I don't think it's filling fulfilling its potential and indeed we've tried over a number of years to resolve various trade frictions and we still can't do it in certain areas and agricultural areas and the like and I'd love to see us ultimately have a free trade agreement but we haven't gotten there so the trade relationship has grown tremendously there are a lot of natural ties between us and yet at the same time I think it has a fair amount of potential still to fulfill what about the security dialogue do you think that that has uh there are roadblocks in that too now look this all aspects of relationship have grown incredibly over the last 22 years if you step back and see where we were 22 years ago and where we are", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-4", "text": "where we were 22 years ago and where we are today it's extraordinary we discussed every issue of human endeavor and security and trade or two of the big ones and they both have grown and security also remember we're not allies indeed in the United States are strategic Partners but we've enhanced our security ties over the years India has now purchased over 20 billion dollars of U.S equipment we have military exercises across a range of our services when I was Ambassador began the first try Services exercise called tiger Triumph and we have talks about a whole range of issues so this is a a process of steady Improvement and really greater comfort and we've seen that both in the bilateral relationship and how we work together in the quad in other ways as well so what what are the roadblocks we still don't have a U.S ambassador in India for two years now well I don't think that's a roadblock in the relationship I think the relationship has continued to prosper and we just were at a uh", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-5", "text": "to prosper and we just were at a uh a press meeting with the secretary of state and uh the minister of external Affairs along with their Australian uh and Japanese counterparts and you could say it's a very strong relationship obviously I have a bias in saying that having an ambassador on the ground can only enhance it further there are a lot of things that a good Ambassador can do you're have a 10 and a half hour time difference between our two countries an ambassador can really understand the Nuance of a government's positions the different personalities but people in and outside of government say and also communicate to India the Nuance that's coming out of Washington so it helps enhance Communications and to deal on a day-to-day basis with issues that at the ministerial level you can only engage on episode quickly and not as regularly Mr gazelle come to you you worked in the CIA and in various capacities in Counter Intelligence Ministry of Defense in your view are there differences in perception about India", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-6", "text": "your view are there differences in perception about India among Democrats and Republicans no I'd say overall the desire amongst U.S policy makers both Republican and Democratic to have a stronger strategic relationship with India that that is across the board there's some fringes in each party that may think differently about that but if you look at who the real decision makers are you know India is extremely important and Americans generally desire to have that partnership be as strong as possible and in the broader context that commitment to a free and open Indio indo-pacific is absolutely there so Washington is looking to New Delhi as a critical partner and Washington is very eager to see India take a bigger role on the global stage so is there a baptism view about the view is that the Democrats view India with suspicion I wouldn't say that at all if you look at secretary blinken's visit here for example at the rezina dialogue and for the G20 Gathering the United States uh the Democratic party has a very strong", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-7", "text": "United States uh the Democratic party has a very strong desire to engage with India and that is not a partisan issue in Washington it's very much bipartisan even in National Security matters absolutely much of the desire to engage with India is of course tied to the dynamic of arising China and what that then means for the indo-pacific as a whole and the uh attitude and approach toward China there's strong bipartisan consensus on what that should look like so regardless of who the president is regardless of who controls the house or Senate you should expect a broad continuation of U.S India policy so we've already mentioned China right they're 10 minutes into the show and China is in the room so Mrs as a U.S policy expert who's based in UK I think you are right I am at Chatham House at Chatham house so how do you see India U.S relations you see it when you see it from the outside do you see there's an improvement do you see there's bipartisan as uh Martin said", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-8", "text": "do you see there's bipartisan as uh Martin said or is it um is it something that you know it's in fits and starts I I actually say uh to my Chatham House colleagues a lot to my students I teach it so as that from my point of view this is the most most interesting relationship to watch and India's obviously one of the most important countries to watch the in the UK you know the UK as as we know has a very long history uh with India and you know some of that is patchy and some that's very you know there are multiple views around that history but but it has clearly created very deep ties and very deep understanding and a strong relationship so I think for the UK watching the U.S India relationship grow has been largely positive I suspect that at times there's a bit of a concern that perhaps the UK could be on the outside of that but overall and it certainly comes back to the question of of security and stability and a concern of course for the", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-9", "text": "and stability and a concern of course for the rise of China what that means for the region is gone hand and glove with increased significance that's paid to India and I think that's why we see more bipartisanship I mean I think you're right that historically there was a sense that the Republicans were looking to the U.S India relationship more it was George Bush that really brought that U.S India strategic partnership to the fore that has secured that deal and there was a sense perhaps that that the Democrats were more focused on internal things within India that I think has changed and I think that's certainly uh that that is not where the Biden Administration is that that focus on having a very strong relationship with India as a leading partner strategically placed as a democracy as a very populist country the most uh the largest country I don't know if we've crossed that point but we're all told we will cross that point sometime in the very near future and so there's no getting around it but I", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-10", "text": "future and so there's no getting around it but I think there is something very special very unique about two very large very diverse very complex democracies that are strategic security partners and a global level but obviously in the region India is just extremely important for the US so there's also this view that uh you know the about democracies that India is this large and noisy and sometimes unwieldy and difficult to understand uh democracy things don't function like in the like the democracies of the West uh so when that happens is it difficult to Fathom that it takes time for relationships to go forward when there are change of governments especially in the you know in the frequency that one has seen in UK uh especially that yeah I mean if you look at all three of these democracies uh the UK the US India it will be very hard for any one of them to be too critical of um turbulence in the other because certainly in the U.S during the years that Donald Trump was President there", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-11", "text": "U.S during the years that Donald Trump was President there was a tremendous amount of turbulence but let's be honest there's been a lot of turbulence across the history of the United States across multiple Dimensions um the UK has you know been exceptional on on this Dimension uh in in the the last quarter of the last calendar year and certainly you know India is a complex and I used to say noisy and sometimes difficult to figure out how things work but I think there's a sense in which that's familiar to a lot of people in the U.S that I don't think that's you know there's a lack of Harmony of course America's very um diverse but if you you know the other thing I would add here is that there are as we know a lot of Indians in America some of them are Indian some of them are Americans they're doing extremely well if you look at median household income in the United States broken down by ethnic group Indian Americans are at the very very top of", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-12", "text": "group Indian Americans are at the very very top of the league so they're prosperous they're successful they're hard working and they're Linked In right they are now Americans and integrated so that cultural affinity and understanding is one that continues to grow and you know we we may well soon have um India an indian-american uh woman um vying for the U.S candidacy and you know in the Republican party I'm going to come to that uh a message after you've interacted with the Indian Community Indian American Community uh when you were Ambassador um what role can the diaspora play to ensure that there is a bipartisan support towards India whether Republican Administration or democrat Administration well let me first step back and comment briefly on the bipartisan nature of the relationship s has been said you know there's a lot of polarity in the United States on a range of issues but one issue where there's great consensus is on the U.S India relationship and there's several reasons for this first there's been a core of people", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-13", "text": "for this first there's been a core of people on both sides of the island of work worked on this relationship for the last 20 years and we talked to each other regardless of party and we share our thoughts and ideas and we solicit ideas from from each other so in that sense there's been a certain glue there have been perceptions that you mentioned as to why one party may be a little different than not than the other and I can mention a few of the nuances that may be slightly different but I don't think they affect the overall stability of the relationship on trade often in the past the Republicans have been a bit more pro-trade the Democrats a little less so but they're really pretty much the same now they're neither party is pursuing a free trade agreement on energy the Republicans have been more willing to share oil and gas and coal in addition to Renewables that's been a little more focused on Renewables on the Republican side on human rights the Republicans have chosen to discuss these", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-14", "text": "on human rights the Republicans have chosen to discuss these issues more quietly sometimes some members of Congress from the Democratic side have been a little more vocal about these issues and even on Pakistan you saw in the last Administration a more vocal break with Pakistan that I think was appreciated in India that you don't see as as visibly in this one but those are nuances and the bottom line is that the consensus is very strong in favor of this relationship overall I also wanted to go into the Ukrainian conflict just before you know because uh that's what President Biden in a tough spot because to accept India's stand I guess you know from the National Security perspective the pressure on President Biden would be tremendous to pressurize India to take a stand one way or the other well again you have to remember as I mentioned earlier India in the United States are strategic Partners we don't agree on every single issue and while the United States would have liked to see India take a more vocal position on a", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-15", "text": "to see India take a more vocal position on a crisis in Ukraine and we also understand the history and the intertwined relationship that India has had with the Soviet Union later Russia over time it's tremendous dependence on Russian spare parts because it has a majority of its military equipment from Russia and it's facing China on its northern border with Russian equipment and it needs its assistance there and its desire not to see Russia pushed any closer to China than it has to be and to keep open a wedge that it can have in its relationship with Russia so that's an issue where we understand our disagreements but we can talk about them openly and it doesn't prevent us from cooperating across a range of other areas and as Miss minjumuri said about the Indian diaspora you've interacted with them I think they played a tremendously important role it's often been said that Nations don't have friends they just have interests but I think in the U.S India relationship we have friends", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-16", "text": "I think in the U.S India relationship we have friends too because there are over 4 million Indian Americans in the United States they're close to a million uh Americans that live in India these are often children that are born of Indian couples in the United States they're U.S citizens and they bring a tremendous uh glue it's almost the secret sauce of the relationship and I think they play a very positive role overall and I think that's one of the distinguishing features perhaps in the U.S India bilateral relationship from what you see in other countries now again the interests of the country's coincide with that and that plays an important role but there's a good feeling there's a level of trust and it's grown over the years as the size of the diaspora Community has grown and the role that diaspora Community plays in the United States is tremendous in terms of leadership in the technology industry in terms of people in politics you mentioned Nikki Haley Kamala Harris it's quite astounding and even doctors", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-17", "text": "Harris it's quite astounding and even doctors and lawyers and leaders of their communities so it's a very important positive part of the relationship you know I'll come to you um uh Mr NASA you know he uh uh Ambassador Justin mentioned uh Nikki Haley she did uh during her presidential bid she may not win but she did say that America needs to recognize I'm paraphrasing America needs to recognize who are the Allies who are the friends and she mentioned Pakistan and that Aid should not go towards Pakistan why does America continue to see Pakistan as an ally in the fight against Terror well that has a long-standing history right that goes back decades now at this point um but I think Miss Haley's comments do reflect a change in thinking about how American political leaders are thinking about international relations more broadly now I don't know the specific context of the remarks that she made so I wouldn't want to comment much further on that but overall I do see it as reflective of how America's leaders are looking", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-18", "text": "it as reflective of how America's leaders are looking at the world in different ways and why I think also this strong bipartisan desire for a stronger partnership with India is there right it's a different way of looking at the world probably different than um what people here in India still think about how Americans look at the world it's a different time now it's starting to interrupt if it's the political yes what would the the intelligence sector the National Security the media the think tanks what about them do they still see Pakistan do they still hyphenate India with Pakistan do you think no I think that's starting to shift and again you know the US government is in a monolith right so there's going to be a range of opinions on this and certain departments and agencies might have different perspectives but I'd say broadly speaking you uh U.S leaders are looking at India differently so it's not always coupled to Pakistan it's it's people recognize that India is a very important Dynamic actor and a country that is", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-19", "text": "a very important Dynamic actor and a country that is poised for Global Leadership it's not a regional matter anymore people are looking to New Delhi to step up on the global stage as a rising economy the most populous nation on the planet and a country that's frankly uh poised for a completely different role in the world than it has played in the past uh I'll move to you uh you know for 50 years since India's independence there were three presidential visits we had uh Eisenhower Nixon and Jimmy Carter and then 23 years they're five presidential visits uh and President Biden hasn't found the time as yet but I guess kovitz during his uh tenure and uh so who do you think is a better president for India in your view a Republican or a Democrat I think that the better president is going to be a president who is very clearly focused on um taking forward America's Global role working consistently methodically seriously diligently on a daily basis with the most important countries in", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-20", "text": "on a daily basis with the most important countries in the world to to manage free exchange it's not entirely free anymore there's a lot of complications around open trade but certainly to ensure stability predictability on the global economy side to to deal with the very difficult situation that accompanies China's rise in the indo-pacific and at the moment the the best candidate for that has is a Democratic president because a Republican party is in disarray internally it hasn't really managed to yet identify an unofficial leader and we're now going to look to see who their official candidate will be who really has the eye their eye on the ball of Foreign Relations so that's the number one criteria from my point of view um it's sort of less important whether they are Republican or a Democrat it's more whether they are really clearly focused on on America's Global role and and I think we we've seen some problems on the past in terms of the visits I mean you know President Biden hasn't yet turned up to India", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-21", "text": "know President Biden hasn't yet turned up to India but his secretary of state just spoke here at the ryzena dialogue there are many Americans who have been in and out of India and will continue to be that's a very clear signal that this Administration places extreme importance on the U.S India relationship I anticipate their will I'm sure it's not something I would be privileged to know uh be a visit by the president um but as as we look ahead I think the question is less whether there will be if there were to be a Republican president in the next round it's less whether that President would continue to value and invest in the India relationship um because I think they would it's more whether they can whether the the party the Republican party will come together will coalesce um and will have the governance capacity to look Beyond America's borders in a really consistent and clear and serious way and right now um that's what I would be worried about if I were in India who's gonna who was the", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-22", "text": "I were in India who's gonna who was the best leader going to be which party is set up to govern I must adjust to yeah I have a slight modification first of all I think there have been a number of Presidential visits starting really with Bill Clinton's at the end of his term then George W bush came Barack Obama came twice Donald Trump came and President Biden is scheduled to come for the G20 Summit uh in September they've all been significant visits they've all continued to elevate the relationship and focused attention on it they've all led to what's called action forcing events of additional accomplishments getting done and I do think that while there may be an uncertainty T now who's going to be the Republican nominee there is a strong consensus within the Republican Party about the importance of this relationship you see it on the hill you see it in members of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and part of it is that this region the indo-pacific has really become the center of gravity of international Affairs", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-23", "text": "really become the center of gravity of international Affairs and dealing with a range of changes including the rise of China and that builds the consensus about the importance of Japan of Australia or of India of the Quad of what happens in this region of Americans America's commitment to it and I think we've seen that on both sides of the aisle I think that will continue there's always uncertainty as to what the future holds and who might be the nominee for either party but I think there's a pretty strong consensus across both that while some areas may be more contentious than others this is one where people generally think there's a lot at stake and a lot to be gained by a strong U.S India relationship you want to interject yeah no I mean I I don't disagree with that but I again I will come back to the to you know my view would be what happens in the U.S India relationship is is connected first to you know the ability to govern consistently and and clearly um", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-24", "text": "ability to govern consistently and and clearly um but it's also connected to what what the US does outside of India but within the region so um the leader uh as such as he or she is needs to have a clear and consistent approach to China to asean to North Korea South Korea I mean there this has got to be one probably the most complex and highly consequential regions the in the world I think that's stating the obvious um and so what happens in the U.S India relationship can't really be evaluated in isolation it has to be taken in the round and there I think um I think we did see inconsistency and disruption and some instability in U.S policy across the region that didn't that doesn't necessarily facilitate that focus on on building a strong relationship with India so you know again I think that there are problems in the Republican party we will see where it goes but those will inevitably have an impact on the ability to have a very strong and effective foreign policy if", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-25", "text": "to have a very strong and effective foreign policy if I could again just slightly disagree uh I think people have to distinguish between some of the surface remarks and what actually is happening on the ground and I recognize that the last administration had some tumultuous elements to it but it was the last Administration that came out and clearly helped establish the concept of the indo-pacific something that was originally put forward by former prime minister Abe of Japan but really endorsed strongly by the United States we worked with Japan to revive the quad in 2017 and had ministerial meetings in person during covid in 2020 and then also in 2019 and we launched many of the things that this current Administration by Administration has elevated and moved forward on so I think that you have to separate what may be some of the surface to Malt with actually the substance of what is driving the policy and as I said I think if you look at a lot of the things that are happening today uh they really have", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-26", "text": "things that are happening today uh they really have their Roots back and things that happened in the last Administration and I think are going to persist in the next Administration and actually it just continues if we keep going backwards it it goes right to the George Bush era it's the one two three deal it's the nuclear deal that kind of set the path going and I don't think either President Obama or President Biden have shifted from that path which was laid by George Bush but would you agree with that um I do think that that that that path has that that deal was transformative and really set in motion of extremely important basis for the US India relationship I would I would though say that on the you know one of the biggest critiques of U.S policy and the region not just India but in the region more generally right now is that it doesn't have a very clear and strong economic strategy we know that there's the indo-pacific economic framework it it's got a long way to go a long way", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-27", "text": "it's got a long way to go a long way to travel will it what will it it will turn into is very far from Clear we know that the region is going forward with the CP TPP with rsep with any other number of Arrangements that the U.S is on the outside of um that was certainly not President Obama's intention he had a very clear vision of how you bring the region together with the U.S absolutely Central to its Economic Development um and that was reversed there are obviously and those the reasons for that do go much further back but nonetheless that was reversed um and and not taken forward by the last Administration and and now all successive administrations find themselves in a very difficult position um but but I do think that there could be a difference and this is where you know politics matter um on the the comment about headlines you know it's true the last Administration and obviously um uh the Ambassador was part of that very positive sort of moving things forward in a productive", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-28", "text": "very positive sort of moving things forward in a productive way but in the world of international diplomacy language matters words matter delivering stable and predictable and clear and serious math language at the highest levels matter because they send signals not only to governments some of whom are privy to the to the things that are happening below the radar but they send signals to people and to businesses and to societies about what they can trust what they can predict what they can plan on and I think that has a very important spillover effect so getting that diplomacy right matters maintaining it matters and and building some sort of economic strategy and right now it's not clear whether there's a partisan a political difference between the two parties on their ability to move forward an economic strategy a lot of that will depend on domestic politics in the in the next 12 months if I can just again add which I thought was a very good point on the trade problem regionally that both the United States and India have China has", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-29", "text": "that both the United States and India have China has been very aggressive and robust in its Regional strategy not only does it have great bilateral trade relations throughout Asia but it has led the regional comprehensive economic partnership agreement from which India withdrew after seven years of negotiations before signing that agreement and it is applied recently to join the high standards comprehensive and Progressive agreement on trans-pacific partnership as has been mentioned that was a an agreement that the Trump Administration withdrew from on day one quite unexpectedly to anyone else who knew about it in the administration or no one was aware of it and I think it was a strategic blunder because it really played into the hands of China and hurt the U.S my regret is that the bite Administration has come in and has continued that policy of not wanting to join the CP TPP and has really put trade off on the side even in the indo-pacific economic framework it has said that it will not be a traditional trade agreement and Market access", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-30", "text": "will not be a traditional trade agreement and Market access to the United States which is really critical for any Trade Agreement will not be granted so at this point I think both India and the United States not only don't have a bilateral agreement but they don't have a good Regional strategy and unfortunately trade has become a bit of a negative term on both sides of the United States it really even began during the campaign in 2016 when candidate Clinton who had earlier said the TPP was the gold standard sort of said she wasn't so sure she could go forward with it and then as I said president Trump abruptly withdrew and now it's not even on the table and I think this is a mistake for the United States on both sides of the aisle and it's going to hurt our relationships economically in the region and economics are so important to this region uh overall the last comment that I'm sorry to persist on this is I appreciate again the Trev turbulence that the Trump Administration", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-31", "text": "again the Trev turbulence that the Trump Administration created but I can tell you within India president Trump was extraordinarily popular yes among the most popular people and the relationship was extraordinarily positive there aren't a lot of countries that can say that but India is one of them and it was even witnessed by his appearing at Amanda by the stadium with over a hundred thousand people uh yes and the howdy Modi were like huge events when they happen uh I'm going to come into the final comments uh uh Mr razza as we wind up let's address China we've already spoken about China can India and the US even though we're going into election mode soon because next year elections in both countries and the experience India has is that foreign policy and Foreign Relations just go to the back seat when America goes to polls it's it's all about domestic issues then um so also in India probably but do you agree that India and U.S need to set aside those compulsions the imperfections in the relationship to deal", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-32", "text": "compulsions the imperfections in the relationship to deal with China now well I would say one immediate domestic issue that both countries can partner on is uh countering election disinformation so China is increasingly aggressive when it comes to misinformation campaigns more generally but I would expect particularly given that both countries have general elections coming up next year that both India and the United States will be on the receiving end of significant election disinformation campaign so let's start thinking about how New Delhi and Washington can collaborate on on mitigating the impact of that and ideally preventing those attacks from happening altogether so tremendous opportunity for cooperation there another area and please elaborate on this because yeah I think you know the media is and you know being from the media we are victims of this misinformation campaigns which come from random places and you're an expert on this uh so could you tell us how it can be taken forward well absolutely so it all starts with information sharing right um so the United States and recent", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-33", "text": "information sharing right um so the United States and recent election Cycles has dealt with significant disinformation campaigns so there's Lessons Learned India has quite a bit of History itself right on being on the receiving end from Pakistan uh this information for example so having that dialogue comparing notes on what each country experienced then informs the types of cyber security practices and education of the the population on how to to deal with these issues coming up with a quick response fact-checking capability for example um and and we could partner with Taiwan on something like that for as well the digital Minister Audrey Tang in Taiwan has come up with a very robust mechanism to to deal with that issue in that country so again it lends itself well to a bilateral cooperation and could be expanded to the quad as well another area and and this is something that the foreign ministers mentioned earlier this morning is the cooperation in matters of Technology right we talked about how important the Indian diaspora is one thing that I want", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-34", "text": "the Indian diaspora is one thing that I want to emphasize is really making sure that people understand how important the Indian diaspora is for America's Innovation ecosystem you have a significant number of india-born and Indian Americans that are the founders of Technology startups you have a significant number of Indian Americans who are prominent Business Leaders in the tech industry for very large corporations and of course a tremendous uh Cadre of scientists and Engineers that are working in companies large and small through the quad and through the U.S India bilateral relationship this is an area where we can focus on the type of economic cooperation that to the ambassador's point is is kind of lacking right now and so using that as part of an election platform looking to the United States and the United States looking to India on how that type of collaboration can create jobs boost our economies make it more competitive and then that China Dynamic that of course plays a part of that so then we can start talking about well what are some", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-35", "text": "then we can start talking about well what are some investment restrictions that we should consider what are some export controls where we could align our our resources these are the types of discussions that I think would still work very well within an election season that if by and large will be domestically focused but those International elements directly feed into the concerns of Voters in both countries I moved to the political you know you were mentioning Nikki Haley and uh we there's Vivek ramaswamy also uh with more and more Indians or Indian Americans part of the political system uh do you think miss vijaburi that uh India will play a larger role in politics in uh in the US you know there's there's been a lot of thinking and research on this and I and one thing that and and the Ambassador might I'm sure will know more um but one thing that I'm hearing is that and that in fact Indian Americans are perhaps less focused on India which isn't to say that they're not engaged and that", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-36", "text": "to say that they're not engaged and that they don't um share their their wealth but um but they're very focused on the US they're very focused on their um lives their work their professional development and they are engaged in the US I don't think that means that that they don't help that it doesn't help the relationship but I'm not so sure that it's a direct transfer of you know focused on what's happening in politics in India or in the US India relationship I think it's more about culture and culture affinity and just getting into the psyche and the everyday experience of um non-indian Americans I myself am half Indian so this is deeply familiar to me but to those who aren't just having people who are prominent across all sectors of society and the economy and certainly in the public sphere in politics matters a lot for how Americans to sort of feel comfortable with and understand and Trust India and that is you know at a deeper level it's you know these relationships if you", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-37", "text": "deeper level it's you know these relationships if you think about the U.S UK relationship one of the strongest relationships in the world it's certainly not only about politics and policy it's about culture education shared history exchanges business intelligence all these things it's like multi-layered and so I think as you get more Indians becoming Americans or being born in America or living there for a period of time that that trust and that culture affinity and that sort of shared experience builds up and that will be in and has been and is becoming an even a very important base for us between the two countries absolutely uh Ambassador just a final comments you know we were talking about the hill and uh India has come in for criticism in the past two years uh on its domestic policies and uh but it seems like um National Security and uh economic interests have kind of overshadowed that criticism would you agree with that view well I think there are complex views about the U.S India relation ship and everyone doesn't view it", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-38", "text": "U.S India relation ship and everyone doesn't view it in the same manner I think overall it's very positive and people are very bullish on the security and the economic aspects of it as I mentioned earlier there are some people who are more focused and may be more critical about Democratic issues in both the United States and in India some believe that the best way to discuss those as uh secretary blanken said is candidly but quietly among friends others do it more publicly but that's part of being in democracies the two robust democracies in which debate and discussion is a significant part of it and so I don't think any one issue overshadows the relationship I think it's a relationship that covers a broad range of issues security and economics are among the most significant of it and if I could just add one or two points you know I was mentioning and I believe that not engaging regionally on a trade strategy is not as much an economic issue as it is a strategic issue because it's how", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-39", "text": "as it is a strategic issue because it's how China deals with the region I'm fully sensitive to the concerns about trade and how it's affected American manufacturing and the need to deal with some of these issues but we've still got to come up with a strategy to make the United States and India players in Regional economics and trade and I'm afraid that our concern about the trade component of it has hurt the Strategic component of it and then the final comment I'd make because I agree with the comments made about the Indian American diaspora and again they're not a unified group some people are more focused on the bilateral relationship some people are more focused on what's going on in the United States but I was struck when I was Ambassador one time when I met a governor of a state and she said to me at the end of the meeting her most important investment is in the United States her most significant and important investment and I was trying to think that she owned stock in which tech company this", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "7434a92abcf3-40", "text": "think that she owned stock in which tech company this one that one said to me no my children and if you look at the number of children of senior officials from India in the United States it tells you something about the relationship the level of trust the importance that parties on both sides give to it and that cannot be minimized in my opinion but it's not something that one can makes a simple statements about or generalities a lot of it is you know India is a complex country the United States is and the relationship has its own complexities but it's very strong and very important thank you gentlemen thank you Miss benjamuri it's been a very interesting uh session and we get to know more about how the US sees India and how the Indians see America thank you so much thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you for watching or listening do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste foreign [Music]", "source": "IbmjNsACS9M"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-0", "text": "the European Union right now is having this kind of I would say ambiguous comfortable line of action and policy towards China and in the case of a military attack on Taiwan the whole region are going to be blocked that would mean that you know people will go on the streets it is true that in Europe in general you know Asia has been very very far away you know to the point we have been so much mixed up with our own internal issues that even our neighborhood even in North Africa which is very close to us we are not really following very well what is happening the European Union is very it's it's a very strange animal at least for the outside world it's difficult it's a complex the decision-making process the division of labor between institutions the competences between States and and Brussels it's it's difficult we the two actors the one is the biggest Democratic democracy law another is the can actually merge forces not necessarily to launch a new non-alignment movement but to go a third way that create credible", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-1", "text": "movement but to go a third way that create credible counterweight to Binary choices massive division in in Europe between the countries who are who feel that they're directly exposed to the to Russia perceptions sometimes are more important than everything else in international relations but we should not be led by perceptions only this crisis of around the Ukraine of the war within Ukraine it's a very serious one and we need to talk to each other welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash this is being recorded at the rice Cena dialogue held in March 2023 in New Delhi today's topic for discussion is on the European Union its interests in the Asian region how has the Ukrainian conflict impacted on its foreign policy does it have any interest in the indo-pacific region the Dynamics with China has closer European integration come to an end and will we begin to see Power return to National capitals the speakers today Mr rui vinhas director general of foreign policy Portugal Ruiz held positions dealing with multilateral Affairs such", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-2", "text": "Ruiz held positions dealing with multilateral Affairs such as un and NATO he was the permanent representative to the political and security Committee of the EU in Brussels besides an illustrious diplomatic career he's also authored several articles on international relations and has been published in academic journals the Lena chakarova founder for a conscious experience f-a-ce or conducts strategic foresight and Trend analysis for the Austrian Ministry of defense and is an instructor at the real world risk Institute Tomi hotanen executive director the Wilfred Martin Center for European studies Finland hutanan's work focuses mainly on economic and social policy he's been political advisor for the Epp and has authored many articles thank you gentlemen thank you uh velina for joining me in this podcast I'll begin with rui uh what has why his foreign policy in the European Union been one of the least integrated elements foreign policies of individual states they're often competing and contrasting with each other in the European Union well uh well thank you for", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-3", "text": "in the European Union well uh well thank you for the invitation thank you for having me uh basically I mean it's it's it's very it's very simple I mean it's the core policy of a sovereign state I mean it's uh defense and foreign policy are two of the the main uh policies of of us in the in the quite the core of a sovereign state so uh the the treaties uh not yet as uh organized those policies as common policies of the European Union but still as a policies in which we need a consensus which which and the big uh the major strengths of those policies the foreign policy and defense is is precisely consensus in my view uh because the power of of the European Union is unity and to speak uh on behalf of the 27 I mean and but I think that we have our problems and the decision-making process is sometimes difficult the negotiation is hard but as you can see now in the in a probably the major crisis uh in Europe since uh since", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-4", "text": "probably the major crisis uh in Europe since uh since uh since its foundation at least in in security terms uh uh the European Union has been quite uh United in in very difficult and tough decisions like sanctions like uh supporting the military effort of the ukrainians so so it's it's possible and we can work on these basis and it's very successfully by the way in this crisis I I it's according to my experience it has been a very good example that uh but a discussion on going to a qualified majority instead of consensus is is there uh but we're still far from uh from a decision that will go through a revision of the treaties sitting in Asia we don't see that kind of sync synchronization as far as views are concerned in the EU on sanctions in China I will get to that but Tommy has a closer European integration uh is it as good as he's saying or do you think that it's ending and power is returning back to the National capitals so our assistant", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-5", "text": "returning back to the National capitals so our assistant assassin today is discussing about what binds Europe and I think it's interesting when we start to reflect on that is libit go back and and and to ask what what did originally by did bind European Union what what is binding today so originally as we know it was a result of this first and second world war the Europeans had killed each other tens of millions and considered that this needs to change and so the piece was the driving force in the European Union then decades passed and and there was maybe you know peace what became the new normality and and there was a search for new narrative and that narrative was Prosperity so purpose uh peace prosperity second p and and Europe was focusing on that on on trade no trade barriers a single Market uh creation of the Euro but then 2007 and 2008 they were in economic crisis again end this question came so what keeps the European Union together and now uh and and then we", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-6", "text": "European Union together and now uh and and then we had also brexit so the United Kingdom which India knows very well went went away but now currently we have found I could say to third B uh problem solving in global scale we have the climate change which obviously the Europeans understand that we need we cannot do it with 27 of us uh separately we have war in Ukraine the energy crisis all of all of that so that is now the new kind of I would say the new new reason to be together also with the war in Ukraine there's a lot of negative negative and sad aspects of that but really I think in that Europe is really has found a new new new new uh determination and maybe also Unity on on this issue and currently their development now really for the first wide time to create common for example military industry and really uh serious discussion for the very first time right um you spoke about the Ukrainian conflict and rui also mentions it um you know um though this broadcast", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-7", "text": "also mentions it um you know um though this broadcast is on Europe but you're seeing uh on the sidelines you're seeing that the US its allies can countries of the South they're engaged in this war of words when it comes to G20 and the meat especially with regard to the Ukrainian conflict even on sanctions though rui says that there is a Unity even on that between Eastern European Bloc and the Western European nations isn't there any kind of a conflict or rethink or um difference of opinion well I would say there's a kind of two levels first of all if you look to public opinions you know obviously so there's a massive division in in Europe between the countries who are who feel that they're directly exposed to the to Russia to the risk so it's an existential question so the discussion in public as fair is very different then you have those countries which do not have with some variation and for example in in Finland Nordic countries Baltic countries there's it's very clear they", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-8", "text": "countries Baltic countries there's it's very clear they are in favor of favor of sanctions and all of that then when you go south Italy Greece which have historic reasons it gets a little bit more nuanced but pop but in the public opinion by the way Portugal and and Spain are very there's a very also among public there's a very strong support for them sanctions and EU access it's more um there's more different layers in a public opinion but in in the head of state level the unity at least at the moment is is very clear and we can ask why maybe because the moral case for Ukraine is so so strong also what rasa has been doing in the front you know terrible things I don't start to make a list here it created the situations whatever that for the leaders to say something you know let's try to find a way let's try to discuss it's it's a very very clear and as you know just recently this today Italian Prime Minister was here from these countries what these", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-9", "text": "Italian Prime Minister was here from these countries what these countries where there's about very many opinions about Russia and her message was very very clear on that and presenting like if you would go to North or politics to Estonia you couldn't have different line so Europe is very United on that honestly okay so bolina I'm going to come to you now that I'm done with the talking to the men yes and now I don't need to talk to them after this no it's just between the two of us no not if we need them to listen to us right okay so um you know you recently tweeted uh that the U.S is quite aware that though China may say otherwise but the state department believes that Beijing has clearly taken a side in the Ukrainian conflict now what is the view in Europe um are they conflicted or is there a consensus that China is uh no longer or China and Russia have colluded well this is a very interesting question and here once again we see depending on where", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-10", "text": "question and here once again we see depending on where exactly in Europe you're going to look for answers uh some kind of let's say diversification of opinions which is very normal for let's say Democratic societies uh you know pluralistic societies people try to figure out things together uh governments in our case also European institutions because they have a very significant role to play when it comes specifically to the relationship with the big Powers with the United States with China and so on European institutions also have a saying and then of course citizens and here the question on China right uh is uh going to be an ambigious one in my personal view why because first obviously uh the European Union as a collective actor wants to play a significant role in a world that is based on certain rules schools mostly of course in the field of trade in the field of economic ties in all the relevant areas and for that matter the European Union and specifically the big European powers were convinced probably this is going to shift a", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-11", "text": "were convinced probably this is going to shift a little bit now depending on exactly that kind of case that you uh shortly quoted um they were convinced that they need China for that that they need of course let's say solid and stable business relations with China and the previous German government under Merkel even managed to you know facilitate the relationship to the point uh together of course with the institutions with Brussels but also with the French counterpart to even propose a comprehensive partnership on investment now let me uh also highlight that for instance right now the so-called ft ta relate you know FTA with India that is being renegotiated is higher in the hierarchy of treaties of the European commission than a partnership on investment and yet this partnership on investment would have set a framework for all member states for all 27 members to practically you know have a trade relationship with China in a settled manner of course the the partnership did not send any chance and was put on hold a month later when the European", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-12", "text": "was put on hold a month later when the European Parliament which is the institution that practically well reflects the the choice of the citizens of the European citizens so you have you know a parliament of 702 uh you know Representatives they put it on hold you know based on human rights violations and labor rights violations so on and so forth and this created you know coupled of course with the mood from the panda endemic where many European States noted that you know China was using certain tools to create a positive image and so on and so forth created a new kind of let's say mood within Europe and specifically then what happened to us you know in uh the Baltic states with Lithuania which also kind of shifted uh towards uh you know on the one hand improving the relationship with Taiwan by launching an official representation also an official diplomatic represent representation of Taiwan it immediately deteriorated to the relationship with China China obviously also was putting representatives from the Parliament and from", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-13", "text": "also was putting representatives from the Parliament and from think tanks on sanctions list following this you know situation with the failed trick so we suddenly had a new situation and that was Prior you know to the war and then of course with the War I mean I'm probably one of the let's say few European analysts and I'm certainly I've been certainly in the minority who has been pointing to modus vivendi of coordination between China and Russia in various domains not specifically the defense one the so-called Dragon Bear for the last 10 years following the first Invasion this has never been an issue for discussion in Europe in the European capitals maybe in certain closed circles you know of Defense as security pundits but certainly was not an issue at all and then with the war When The War Began and we actually went European officials so what I was anticipating that practically China will be disseminating the same Russian narratives think of you know the narrative it was a NATO expansion", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-14", "text": "know the narrative it was a NATO expansion uh then the sanctions policy you know we saw all of this important narratives being actually the inseminated this was a kind of I would say an eye-opener for the European capitals for the European memberships but also for the European Institutions and now we are in a kind of a limbo because contrary to United States which is I would argue already in an award competition and is taking measures in all of these you know relevant areas um and Fields the European Union is in a in a much more difficult situation it's still hesitating to say it forget about taking action right it is we are still struggling let's say and I um am convinced that it actually we should actually be more open with the specific towards the risks that may emerge if we are not addressing the issue because uh that kind of um solidarity that my colleagues were you know correctly pointing to may be endangered in the case of china because I think that a certain", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-15", "text": "the case of china because I think that a certain group of European member states would probably go along with the United States not so much based on only on personal convention convention uh you know when it comes to the approach to China but also because they see that the United States is the only guarant of their security and their territorial Integrity in the future following the the the the you know the Russian war against Ukraine and in doing so there will be another block of course which is more constructive which will try to navigate which doesn't want to get caught in a binary world you know it wants to still somehow keep the equilibrium that is right now in global Affairs and this may create a kind of bifurcation within Europe which I'm really really uh practically afraid of and I think that by addressing the issues by speaking about it and it will be a necessity at some point of time um and the moment for me the red line would be certainly if China decides to deliver military", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-16", "text": "be certainly if China decides to deliver military assessments because if China decides to deliver military assistance to Russia that's right we will end with a proxy war a proxy war between Russia and Ukraine where two new system Rivals are practically helping the both sides and where Russia will lose its Global power status okay that will be my that will be my call so okay uh Mr Venus uh I think uh very eloquently put out here that there you know the veil has been lifted about uh and there's no ambiguity now about uh China eluding uh colluding with uh Russia um can there be any ambiguity now in all of the EU States uh and you know because there was ambiguity when it came to the india-china conflict when it happened in galwan on our borders EU was kind of was tiptoeing around the issue was did not come out openly and castigate China or say that this was expansionist policy of China Now is it going to be tiptoeing is or", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-17", "text": "Now is it going to be tiptoeing is or coming straight out and or does that have to be an attack or does it have to be military transfers what needs to be done now for EU to decide okay we're going to take action or we're going to say something well I mean there is that is a complex issue I mean first I agree in generally with what was said but China I mean we international relations are Dynamic and fluid if we go back uh two years the the transatlantic relation between the European Union and the US was not so good as it is now uh if we go back uh some more years the relations between the European Union and India were not as in such a good phase as they are now actually it was during the Portuguese presidency of the European Union that we were able to break through and uh and relaunch an economic agenda with uh between the European Union and India in 2021 so this is to say that International ages are fluid and uh and and the Dynamics with with China", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-18", "text": "fluid and uh and and the Dynamics with with China go between ups and downs now we are not in a hub but I will not qualify it as uh something final okay although uh uh the the the Ukrainian War can be a qualitative element in this equation I mean if if uh if if some steps are taken by China that can represent a an issue for the European uh member states uh that's for sure right but I will not anticipate uh uh let me just if I'm in 30 seconds I mean he ended picking in what Tommy was saying before and and in your two first questions I mean about European Union the European Union is very it's it's a very strange animal at least for the outside world I mean even for us in working members of the European Union or working it's it's it's difficult it's complex the decision-making process the division of labor between institutions the competences between States and and Brussels it's it's difficult it's a unique project it's it's it's very beautiful but", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-19", "text": "a unique project it's it's it's very beautiful but unfinished uh ever Infinity it's like the the cathedral in Barcelona and the guido of course it never is it's never finished but uh but the fact is that crisis after crisis and the 21st century has been a a Century Of Crisis for the European Union the financial crisis that Tommy mentioned even we have to invent another word because crises are by definition transitional and we are living in crisis then the the the migration crisis then the brexit after six enlargements it was the first time that a member state of the European Union decided to leave the union and then the pandemic and now a war and in in each and every of this crisis the European Union had came out uh stronger and United and with more elements of integration uh for instance the answer to the pandemic was uh extraordinary I mean we developed competencies in else Public Health that we didn't have before uh buying vaccines and coordinating the answers with you know", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-20", "text": "vaccines and coordinating the answers with you know across Europe or or going to the market and the boring mining the so-called Euro bonds uh in on behalf of the the 27th so this these were step major steps yes in the middle of a huge crisis and again now in Ukraine as we as we are as we were mentioning two issues I think of Divergence doing things that we have never that we have never done before for instance to supply military equipment to the Ukraine yes because it's hard uh you know um Tommy I'm going to come to you um the Indian external affairs minister last year and I quote he said uh somewhere Europe has to grow out of the mindset that Europe's problems are the world's problems but the world's problems are not Europe's problems and the German Chancellor repeated the statement at the Munich security conference um he said that the Indian foreign minister had a point uh this is the way Asia sees Europe let me tell you it's not just India um South", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-21", "text": "let me tell you it's not just India um South Asia sees Europe like that uh do you agree disagree uh yeah it was very very you know uh clear statement and very vital yeah exactly it's very vital also it came very interesting moment because that was exactly the moment when the whole you know the in the context of whole U.N votings and you know how India would you know they was focus on India and then came that that um that uh that statement it's you know to keep it open it up so of course it's a question is okay what do you mean exactly of course you know I know that we know that it was mentioned in the context of Ukraine war but if you say that Europe doesn't care about world's problems you know there's still the you know Europe is is giving 75 billion euros which is about 9 000 billion rupees every year to the in the world development and in the old Corners is presented in all the uh all the all the countries and tries to be", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-22", "text": "uh all the all the countries and tries to be involved so in that sense that since uh that soft element is is there but if you then say that that was meant it in in a way that in a context that you know okay we had to probably we had this problem in China in Malaya there are you know Indian Ocean you know all these questions and and and you never said nothing and now we you know you have that thing and you come to us to ask sympathy and and okay well there one point the Europeans because of our history are quite Pat on managing military conflict you know Yugoslavia War it's basically I can say as a think tanker it was United States who came to clean the mess Ukraine also the situation would not be so good if the United States would not be there uh with uh with the military assistance and uh and you know kind of the leadership because we don't uh you know the the kind of mindset is not there and and not not the you", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-23", "text": "mindset is not there and and not not the you know capacity but I think the the good news and there maybe I can be a little bit more sharper it's that I think that's uh the point you know maybe what was referred in the minute conference is that that it is true that in Europe in general you know Asia has been very very far away you know to the point we have been so must must uh mixed up with our own internal issues that even our neighborhood even in North Africa which is very close to us we are not really following very well what is happening let alone Asia but now that I think it has changed for the normal people and business CEOs for the reason that now we understand in Europe that what happens in Asia as an impact in Europe next day so if if China because now because of this at the Russia's aggress into crane also the question well will China make them same move with me with Taiwan so if it does you know Europeans understand okay if you have", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-24", "text": "does you know Europeans understand okay if you have invested massive to to China and then the whole factories and Company so if the attack comes most likely we go have to go to some kind of sanctions as a reciprocity and then we are in in a trouble and then the focus is on India exactly maybe also where the Indian stands but not only the new possibilities and maybe that's the Silver Lining and maybe maybe for example that can be one of part of our agenda publicly or not publicly is that how to tackle with the China how to do it because we have a common interest common uh you know concerns and and the last uh I I personally think that we have we are I think Europe okay we have many countries with 29 or 27 and we have different views but in these issues I think we have started to pick a side if you want to be as all in Europe if we say we want to be a global power but then you have to surely these leaders it means choices", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-25", "text": "then you have to surely these leaders it means choices you have to make choice you have to pick your choice I would just I would pick the choice of India okay concluding remarks William we were talking about China how much does Europe really want to get involved because as uh Tommy was pointing out that it wasn't part of you know a sphere that Europe was interested in or showed any kind of inclination to be interested in but now you know everybody is interconnected so now when we talk about EU geographical borders cultural borders where does it stop and if like you said if the China Taiwan conflict or in the South China see if it gets aggressive then um does Europe get involved will Europe get involved will it will it become a bigger issue than it is now are you trying to diplomatically ask me whether Europe would get military involved involved the health of the United States if China decides to launch a military attack because it's a question and uh which is being discussed even in", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-26", "text": "a question and uh which is being discussed even in Australia right so uh I would like to know what it is about Europe like why the hesitation well you see this is exactly the point which I was trying to make that this kind of big risk I see emerging on the horizon I'm not saying it has to happen like that and I absolutely agree that international relations are fluid things are happening all the time we have plenty of Game Changers and yet there are some kind of objective Trends and one of the things is that it is about credibility and in that sense uh first I have to say that I am personally I'm not convinced that China is having the intention of launching a military attack on Taiwan in the short term now not only based on what Beijing was seeing happening in the war in Russian war against Ukraine but in general think of the internal you know the internal stability Paradigm that China is always pursuing you know everything is centered around the topic of having", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-27", "text": "you know everything is centered around the topic of having a predictable in domestic process and in the case of a military attack on Taiwan the whole region with the relevant Global chalk points that are providing the critical supply for the China for the Chinese population are going to be blocked in not only in a week but in months maybe and so on through the roots that would mean that you know people will go on the streets because of you know the lack of critical Supply but anyway going back to your main question and that is in case of military attack by China on Taiwan I am not convinced that there will be a coherent approach by Europe that means European institutions and all the 27 member states when it comes to a response I'm also not even convinced that we will be able to let's say launch these comprehensive sanctions the way how we did that Russia European okay that is my point uh and yes the European Union right now is having this kind of I would say ambiguous um comfortable line", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-28", "text": "this kind of I would say ambiguous um comfortable line of action and policy towards China you know framing China of you know of a partner on certain issues it was mentioned climate change health issues and so on then we have a competitor part that is on economic issues and then we have the system rival part and I'm asking myself if you are framing someone as a system rival uh what are you really actually considering actually playing is an action plan in case that things really deteriorate so we will We may observe a final sentence on my side members that will be very very let's say loyal with the American position on that matter for the sake of their partnership with United States first and foremost and then we will have you know more like I said more constructive line of policy that will try to you know somehow mitigate the risks emerging out of this situation and we may see sanctions but not in this scope not in this certainly not in this course yes and maybe maybe just uh you", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-29", "text": "in this course yes and maybe maybe just uh you know a final remark which it considers India I think that right now with this bifurcation of the global system with the deepening decoupling between United States and China with Russia's war against Ukraine which I argue that uh is also about the future of the global order it's not just about Ukraine it's not only about the security order in Europe but it's also about the positioning of Russia in this newly emerging systemic conflict I think there may be a big chance for India and the European Union to find a kind of new models with ND for a third way to not get caught in this you know Cold War 2.0 mentality and to you know get caught in a binary choices world but to say we the two uh actors the one is the biggest Democratic democracy Bloc the other is the oldest democracy we can actually merge forces not necessarily to launch a new non-alignment movement but to go a third way that create credible counterweight to to Binary choices", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-30", "text": "third way that create credible counterweight to to Binary choices and say we don't need a code word 2.0 in this critical period of the international relations tell me you disagree yeah well okay that's the third way that way I'm not so sure if it's how how it will find out but I would I wanted to comment on on this channel first first of all two points uh most most likely okay we don't know but most likely China if China really wants to go after Taiwan there's a various phases I think most likely because you cannot just launch an attack you know it's not like I take my car into in front of the house and just go it will be visible for months and months and months because it's a massive logistic operation but we can assume that that you know what China could do for example have a military exercise around the Taiwan which lasts forever and nobody can come in and out and then you know test with others and see what the Dynamics but your for your direct question about", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-31", "text": "what the Dynamics but your for your direct question about military assistance you know the reality is if you don't have the we don't have the material not the equipment in Europe but that's actually our big problem and that's actually the discussion so I think the most the biggest support but Europe in that situation realistically could give is is related to sanctions but military assistance Americans don't if you don't have anything but the Americas would like to that's that's a question which I want to come to you uh rui because uh has this War uh blurred the the separation or the lines between uh NATO and uh and EU as far as defense policy is concerned no we're not yet there because there's a difference between the two the membership of the two organizations in the EU for instance we still have neutral countries Ireland Austria just to give two examples Finland and Sweden are about to to to to to leave that status and that is something that it's important when we explain what we we see and what we", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-32", "text": "when we explain what we we see and what we think and we feel in Europe uh with this uh aggressive posture of Russia is our two countries that were neutral neutral one during 200 years Sweden and the other one almost 80 years in in a few weeks after the the invasion of of Ukraine they have gave up they gave up their that neutrality status which is very impressive and why is that because they feel that they felt that neutrality was not enough anymore to to to provide security though to to to their country so um but but in this in that sense we're still far from from that which is not a negative thing I mean we have NATO which is a political military Alliance defense Alliance which takes care of collective defense of of its members and the European Union as Tommy was saying in the beginning it's it's it's it's made it's mainly a a peace a peace a peace organization I mean the defense started it's a new dimension a relatively new dimension in the European Union", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-33", "text": "new dimension a relatively new dimension in the European Union it started in the 90s and a very baby steps and now it's Bolder but but still it's a it's uh it's it's not the core business of the European Union and uh because as Tommy were saying it's basically peace prosperity democracy other there's the three pillars of the European Union and uh and that's very important to understand I mean you cannot find more peace lovers in any other region than in Europe after two world wars in which more than 80 million people died the European Union was created to to to to to have to assure that we have peace in Europe and uh and we have never and it's basically an economic organization and not oriented to a military so we have for all reasons to develop a stronger capacity in terms of Defense at the level of the European Union and to be more autonomous that's important but NATO is still uh the the Cornerstone of the European Defense just before I conclude I have two points", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-34", "text": "European Defense just before I conclude I have two points which I want to touch on uh maybe you can answer that uh on both of you could answer that one is you know the the refugees who are coming in the integration of the refugees because uh in in there is a view that the Scandinavian countries you know this burning of the Quran which has taken place it's caused a little bit of a disruption in the um in the polity in the among the people uh with this influx of refugees if you could both tell me a little bit about these uh these issues with the influx of refugees and now you have even from Ukraine and then there are the climate refugees who are going to come in I think there are already some 8 million of ukrainians in Europe already so how are these how is the refugee problem going to be resolved in the countries culturally as well as yeah both of you could Melina you could just I can start first as a 100 immigrant who actually has", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-35", "text": "can start first as a 100 immigrant who actually has been saying that for the last 20 years that I'm a perfect example for successful at least I would like to think so successful European integration as someone who has was born in one country moved to study in another and you know got the education from a second and then has built uh you know uh the whole life in a third one and representing this third one as a Austrian citizen I am absolutely strongly propagating that Europe uh given the objective demographic processes in this continent which are pointing to a very let's say pessimistic future in terms of labor force in terms of you know the the population you know you only need to take a look at the Eastern uh eastern part of Europe yes it's devastating I mean there are countries like my home country Bulgaria together with Japan these are the two countries in the world that are having the biggest issue of you know not just aging but disappearing population so migration if handled rightly and you know", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-36", "text": "population so migration if handled rightly and you know with the right political measures and communicated right you know right right in the right manner is a good thing it's a good thing now what is the problem the problem is that of course and it was already pointed out it's a continent built on peace prosperity stability once the prosperity part is starting you know to shake we had as you heard economic Rises financial crisis and so on and so forth you know populist forces are always capitalizing on the migration card always and because of that the traditional you know party forces are trying somehow to cope with this phenomenon at home because in Democratic societies every politician has to go to the elections after four years that is the reality so migration has been let's say handled probably not in the best Collective way but a lot has happened since then a lot I mean since 2015 a lot has been done at the European Union level and also within the member states and yet of course again and again and", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-37", "text": "member states and yet of course again and again and this is now again the case of the pandemic and after a war a war is always inflationary the repercussions are huge specifically for small countries once again we have the issue that of course the migration card is being used now I'm not going to refer to the case in Sweden because I don't know all the details so I will refrain from a comment but I will only say that you should also consider migration as something that nowadays because of an interconnected world is a phenomenon that can be also weaponized because and I can give you a concrete example like the case with Belarus that has facilitated migration you know migration Corridor that was before the war and practically exercise pressure on three concrete European Union countries this Corridor was facilitated probably with the help of other external actors but anyway nowadays this is also possible you can exercise political pressure all states by using the migration card so you have two leverages you can you have the domestic leverage because", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-38", "text": "leverages you can you have the domestic leverage because you're exercising pressure on politicians and then you have the you know external pressure so this is also reality but given the points that you made you know climate change conflicts military you know conflicts Wars the migration is something that is here to stay and it needs to be tackled in a right manner uh it needs to be communicated to the people because and I will give you a final exam you know example alone in Germany in the next 15 to 20 years there will be probably 15 million people that will be retired you know 15 to 20 million according to the official statistics this is one quarter of the whole population so the migration you know the migration is the only solution for these countries to actually keep vibrant economies right I'll give you the final word before we in short we are running out of time yes uh so first of all you mentioned the climate uh you know climate immigration in fact the current wave which you mentioned the numbers are uh are", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-39", "text": "current wave which you mentioned the numbers are uh are big basically it's because of the war it's war in Syria and uh war in Ukraine those are have created those well actually you know immigrated Refugee flows and uh and uh and uh but the difference for example to 2015 situation which uh as you know we had huge flow of of refugee coming from south the difference is this is now what we call illegal you know legal immigration so so you know those who coming from Ukraine they have a permission it's going rather well in the sense you know there's various reasons for that first of all because ukrainians it's their mainly you know women and children so you know in the public mind you have this uh vision of you know we know what is happening so basically men are going to battle and and you know and the mothers with the children going to live in the country it's heartbreaking so of course the population has a different attitude ukrainians have also there's many ukrainians already before", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-40", "text": "ukrainians have also there's many ukrainians already before who have networks in in Europe so there's a lot of you know ways of them to tackle their tackle the challenge so that um so that's uh you know one one which is helping so the political problem is at least not yet um yet there secondly you know for the future waves I think there has been for three four five years a lot of question on on border control and uh you know the whole Asylum process make it faster quicker so I think when you know if refugees come or flows of people to Europe I think it will be tackled but you pointed to the right the issue as as it was mentioned already before we have the Aging big aging problem in in Europe which you don't have here in India but we do but but first even knowing that somehow we don't manage the immigration part there is no really good case in in Europe where where this Integrity integration of the immigrants the country itself is growing very very", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-41", "text": "the immigrants the country itself is growing very very well Sweden was considered one of the moral countries for years but actually what happened it fell apart yeah basically many issues were not discussed yes and I left you know things got related but that will be the you know Challenge and actually you know that there's a commission ahead of European commission and new leaders coming to India also to now to to Market um Europe as a place to work because the need is there we need that uh so we need people to come to Europe but we don't have to make any seem to have we haven't fought the Silver Bullet how to make this integration work and that is the challenge right so like I was saying about this uh integration I'll give you the final word rui that uh what are the what is the what is what holds European Union together geographical cultural ties what what is that that thing that holds it together final Point all of that I mean all of it all of it yes geography culture of course", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-42", "text": "of it all of it yes geography culture of course uh values values and that is of course and the and the shared objectives as a as we were all mentioning just a quick word if I still have time sure on um on the on the perceptions I mean perceptions sometimes are more important than everything else in international relations but we should not be led by perceptions only this is a this this crisis of around the Ukraine of the war with in Ukraine it's a very serious one and we need to talk to each other I mean and prevent any cleavage between the west and the rest or the North and the South we need to to talk to listens we in Portugal we are in the far west coast of Europe and by history geography geopolitical condition we are used to to talk to everyone and and to bridge sometimes and we think it's very important to listen to the others to their concerns with this crisis but also to explain from from from our perspective in Europe what is going on and this", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "6fd612d59da4-43", "text": "our perspective in Europe what is going on and this is a serious issue and it's important to talk and this has in a dialogue I think it's very dialogue that we listen to each other and can understand better the different points of view thank you so much thank you gentlemen thank you velina thank you so much for coming on the podcast thank you for watching or listening into this podcast do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste thank you [Music]", "source": "24KMdJ3zvWg"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-0", "text": "I was thrown into politics at that time was let me just be very clear maybe I was numb I did not know how it started at that time and how I took it Forward till here now and sometimes I look back I still um can smell his blood on my hand one very senior journalist she told me once I had asked promoji in 2001 a question that what do you think who will take you know your name forward he said Rahul is very active he will but when my father was in the hospital came in and he just my father was in coma he told him pramod that you know that kind of connection was the alliance Congress hey Congress 26 and Poonam at 42 little better it's very tough to handle your house work be a particular way where you're safe mentally physically politically I'm a cool mother actually their children and their friends also find me very cool area it's like in politics Namaste Jai Hind welcome to another edition of AI podcast with Smitha prakash", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-1", "text": "to another edition of AI podcast with Smitha prakash many of the viewers and listeners of this podcast have asked us to invite guests from different parts of the country to our Delhi Studios so today we have taken the podcast to Mumbai we have a young politician Poonam Mahajan who has carved a niche for herself in the bharatiya janata party she was known more as her father's daughter but today she will talk to us more about what her vision for her party and her state is poonamji thank you so much for coming on the Ani podcast I always like to have young people come on the podcast and give me their view about what they want India to be so I'm very very grateful that you're here no no I'm honored smithaji and I would I it's it's it's wonderful to be here and not poonamji Poonam as we have seen you and we look up to you as a leader who's taking journalism forward so it's an honor for me that's", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-2", "text": "forward so it's an honor for me that's so sweet of you thank you uh so I've you know um I've Had The Good Fortune of uh beginning my reporting career in the political field I used to do a little bit of Ministry of external Affairs but political field when your dad was very active in politics so we've had a couple of brushes which were great you know which were abrasive at times of course he was a politician and I was the one asking the questions a little bit of nog joke which is typical right why not yeah I think he could even take that forward absolutely and with advani ji and I met him several times uh and then uh it was this very difficult phase uh when I saw you enter politics many of us in Delhi was shocked at that incident which happened for you it was a trial by fire before you got into politics it's such a young age you were just 26 and you were thrown into uh you know into politics at that", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-3", "text": "were thrown into uh you know into politics at that young age what what did you think at that time like it was those are very big shoes to fill your dad's um I did not think of filling his shoes first of all because I know I'm Poonam pramod Mahajan but I'm not pramod Mahajan once that's clear in my head I can take my it just I do have his blessings luckily his name uh Good Fortune where he has touched many lives where people are nice to me and they try to teach me on my path what better I can do sometimes when I make mistake also they can tell me that your father wouldn't have liked it this is how it should be I was thrown into politics at that time was let me just be very clear maybe I was numb I did not know how it started at that time and how I took it Forward till here now um I won't be telling you the it won't be it's a truth that at that time that", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-4", "text": "be it's a truth that at that time that was the only area we just wanted to as family to take this thing forward um I don't have any any explanation to that it's not like I was getting ready for politics yes a lot of things we saw with him maybe I was always stuck to me as a little kid he wanted to always spend time with me so I did learn something which was very subconsciously saying certain things but um yes it was a dramatically tough time and again I feel being his daughter has given me a lot of strength there was a lot of positives also and a lot of negatives also and in my path where I lost an election then won an election got a lot of opportunities to work forward I learned a lot I learned a lot 26 and Poonam at 42 little better I wouldn't be saying but a great learning experience and trying to do better you know you said that um many people would come and say to you that your father wouldn't", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-5", "text": "come and say to you that your father wouldn't have done this or your father wouldn't have liked what you're doing or whatever it's hard for uh for the young the Next Generation whether a boy or a girl to chart your own path because everybody expects you to be your dad oh Mom my mother I couldn't be because she's really too good a mother and it's my mother is very calmer and a very composed person positive I couldn't take any trade from her sadly but my father yeah there are certain things which maybe I also have it in me maybe if you tell me Poonam you have to come at certain time what work is given to you you have to I take everything as a project and I need to excel in that competitively that I got it from my father but again I tell people it's wonderful that look at me as you know you could be like him but I am not pramod Mahajan I'm lucky to be Poonam pramod Mahajan and that's my identity and", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-6", "text": "pramod Mahajan and that's my identity and that's how I took it forward I'm lucky to have his name lot of love and support from people experiences that bloodline DNA but if I start thinking like that maybe I'll just deviate my life into a very different arrogant route to take it Forward I know where I stand took her very early no in the sense that first you lose your dad and then you lose your first election oh badly that too badly like it was it was just a big girl reality check again and then I realized that Poonam you need to learn I made lot of mistakes in that election before that certain ways and I think those mistakes taught me a lot and that's why I'm here so yes but now if we get hooker also prepare yourself good uh Philosophy for Life uh especially for youngsters you know who maybe had a softer calmer uh childhood and then suddenly Comes This jolt which you're not prepared for it right see childhood was always gamma for", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-7", "text": "prepared for it right see childhood was always gamma for everyone and I've seen my father's hard work living in a two-bedroom house typical Marathi medium girl in a Marathi household uh where uh first natas didn't have a place to stay my job is to give used to be to give a glass of water uh tatalawa just put plates uh Putnam and sing Dana Chutney which is very famous from marathavada that was my job sabzi I could not keep because I was too small to do my mother said you always make a mess maybe from there then listening to everyone I think that learning from there to seeing my father taking a note as the First Defense Minister for NDA in 1996 his speeches there is a lot I saw and then suddenly at 2006 you know and I was on a call with him and it happened just in 10 minutes so you don't forget this but yeah life has completely changed I cannot say they'll be the same more comfortable life I look at you uh you", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-8", "text": "same more comfortable life I look at you uh you were one of the first who saw the body right he was still alive because of course we we um we I lived just few buildings I used to live few buildings away from him and it's all in the deposition also in court I got a call and he was supposed to come to my house we used to exercise together chit chat at the time and there was a delay in timing because I told him come bit later and in that 10 minutes a lot of things happened I ran to him we picked him I picked him by myself and sometimes I look back I still um can smell his blood on my hand I mean it must be a painful thing and I don't make a I don't explain these things to your mother was in the room my mother was there and Monday she was there um the staff who were standing there that boy was there and uh it just it it was a traumatic time I could see him sitting on a", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-9", "text": "traumatic time I could see him sitting on a sofa hurt and in a shock that why did this happen to me I mean bleeding profusely actually it was more of an internal bleeding my mother had tied the butter it frankly it's hazy but still clear because early in the morning you do not expect something like this to happen we just decided we were on the 15th floor so smaller lifts how it goes and just pick him and go that time we didn't have a ceiling so we had to go from the other road to hinduja um it it was just traumatic you don't understand what was going on and then it we just took him I spoke to him in the lift and imagine when I was talking to him and of course it's all over in news also he said what did I do wrong that I had to see this in my life I've given everything to everyone to my siblings and you know whatever I could do and I just told my father when I", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-10", "text": "could do and I just told my father when I was holding him he was too heavy for me to hold imagine and I just say Baba don't worry Shri ganeshayana this is the new phase in our life everything is going to change and we'll do better but I did not know that new phase will be without him so and then we reached hospital my whole family was there my husband was there my friends everybody came but my brother came I don't remember the thousands of people were there so and those 12 days are hazy a lot of things happened people came and went uh hazy and then he just yeah it's it was a long traumatic time after that also when he passed away it wasn't as if it was over right then the court thing started after that yeah I was just talking to someone the other day sitting I think outside code number 35 and every day reading through the depositions what was going on not a lawyer just a commercial pilot because there was nothing left in my", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-11", "text": "a commercial pilot because there was nothing left in my life for all of us actually and we really found wanted to fight that case because when there is a bigger name involved politically or any bigger name people also talk there's always a conspiracy theory of people attaching it to something else you know it is interesting for people to make up story and I wanted to fight for the truth so yeah it it was a very difficult time and we um we're just sailing through you pointed to your uncle and you said that he's the one who made me an orphan he did and that was my that was the turning point in the case I guess when you turned uh I think I don't know which was the Turning Point frankly no idea and that was not important to me but yeah I tried to keep myself calmer what is it like coming face to face with your father's killer if I may ask you a very personal question um we see what is going on in a person's mind you'll never know", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-12", "text": "going on in a person's mind you'll never know and what was going in my mind will be always remain in my mind uh because it's not worth as a daughter there were a lot of things were going on in my heart and and you're still numb why I mean I've seen growing up everybody getting their Fair chances from a oldest brother whose father passed away really young at his 21 years of age and then taking care of everyone as a family and giving everything but it just doesn't matter anymore this because he's gone and it's it's still whenever I meet anyone in Parliament anywhere they remember him makes me feel a bit peaceful to the Past what we have seen a bit peaceful you know you said um and I'll quote you I know who killed my father but how is it those in power did not get to know about this when you were in power you never found out who was The Mastermind behind it you know you you identified your father's killer but then you're saying", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-13", "text": "you identified your father's killer but then you're saying there's a mastermind or you said there's a mastermind yeah I did say that there is a reason because it cannot be a reason for a person to kill his brother who he believed was his like his father he was a four-year-old when his father passed away and I never saw them uncomfortable with each other to an extent where there was this kind of anger um someone has to put something in someone's mind to be so extreme with small issues it couldn't be just this momentary could be couldn't be no there was nothing so serious for momentarily also maybe it cannot be a frankly I mean I'm just trying to explain it that way it can't be a momentarily thing so does that does a tragedy of this enormous nature does it kind of Define your relationships in politics because you know your your father was always surrounded by people he was always there he was available for whoever wanted to meet him and things um and then comes this", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-14", "text": "to meet him and things um and then comes this tragedy in your life do you I know you you say that you can't fit into his shoes but does that kind of always play on you that oh my God he went away like this now I've got to do what he what the life he led if I will keep thinking like this it will be a disaster for me and a failure for me I just take every day with I take every step thinking that let me make this better in coming times how do I make self look better I just don't want tomorrow people to say promote these are smaller things I work on and that drives me because my mother always used to say your father was a person in Marathi they say and that kind of you know this charismatic hero my father was and still in anybody's heart you ask anybody in bgp or outside BJP and recently again his that Lok Sabha speech has been viral all over so the younger generation also who are born after 90", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-15", "text": "so the younger generation also who are born after 90 won't be knowing what actually had happened and who pramod Mahajan was it again has come in everybody's mind I think that makes me happy but what you're talking about yeah all uncles and aunts who I used to serve became G's and sirs so it takes a little time for me to understand that transition and it takes very few people's maturity to accept me in that transition if I put it in a right way so I did make mistakes and I did face lot of difficulties with those mistakes so they were all those people at home because my father used to have all takes everything in my house I got married at 21. so missing Poonam was his favorite agenda and having meetings in a house versus double favorite agenda so I could see everybody all the time um going for speeches please take me Baba so my mother will sit down where all the people are sitting so maybe uh unconsciously he was probably molding you I", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-16", "text": "maybe uh unconsciously he was probably molding you I don't know I the other day I met um I was not ready but the other day I met one very senior journalist she told me once I had asked promoji in 2001 a question then what do you think who will take you know your name forward he said Rahul is very active he will but so that I think that she told me when I joined politics then I said I cannot hear so you were into in 2016 uh when you got that constituency it was a congress 14 years 2014. so uh when you got in into that were you set up to lose you know who thought oh now that uh promoji is gone they many thought oh okay you know we have an entry because when he was there he was such a colossal figure that it was very difficult uh to dislodge him because he was everything uh you know in Maharashtra and in the center he was without promotion they literally had nobody to Mastermind an election for", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-17", "text": "they literally had nobody to Mastermind an election for them uh the BJP for you guys I shouldn't say them for the BJP I meant the BJP so you know there are many who thought okay but then when they saw that it's pramod mahajan's daughter so there was this talk at that time I remember that set her up for a failure because we can't have her getting in at that time did you sense that or was it just political gossip I didn't know about this because and I'm happy to hear this it gives me more you know strength to fight it more it's good competition also healthy um this seat nobody was fighting frankly I met a lot of big leaders later on coming in BJP from Bollywood and certain known places police they said maybe it's uh I believe in myself I actually wanted to see being my father's daughter people always push you to Dynasty but I did not get his space or his constituency I started and paved my own way so that", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-18", "text": "I started and paved my own way so that constituency was considered as a very difficult yeah Congress guard a difficult constituency and I wanted the Northeast constituency it was a known fact that my father and the MP who was from there kiriji had lost so logically it was not against and logically I wanted to contest from there because I knew the place born and brought up there it didn't work out maybe they did the survey you don't know it didn't work out then I said I'm ready to contest this also just trust me because being in youth Wing since 2007 I knew each and every constituency my job is always to study to know and more and I said this constituency of BJP last time we lost it by a lack and a half vote because you need a Marathi face for this constituency always we have a Marathi speaking but non-marathi MP contesting in Mumbai many times so give me this opportunity my Marathi because a typical Marathi movie it will help", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-19", "text": "Marathi because a typical Marathi movie it will help Modi ji's trust me modiji will sweep this seat so people said trust me people and their belief and I could you know my I believe in calculations and then of course my sixth sense and my belief nobody believed that that for sure nobody believed many people said and so the Bollywood might the glamor against you is it I don't know they are very uh few in numbers fewer numbers if you see the constituency when you land the entire area around the airport bandra is it's not so pandra West there are certain places which have certain Bollywood uh who's who I don't know how many come out to vote because I have not seen many people coming out to vote but now of course a lot of people have understood that democracy is important voting is important but that's not only the constituency in bandra there are a lot of other alms certain people who have been working for so much so tell me um you know uh", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-20", "text": "for so much so tell me um you know uh there's a lot of talk that uh that what has happened in recent past like uh the the shiv Cena breaking up uh the whole coup that happened everybody being taken to Assam and then this happens there was supposed to be this tsunami of people who will come over from udhasena into the shinde Cena that your uh that your Coalition will become stronger that but that doesn't seem to have happened why is that so the history of ships and bharti janta parties Alliance I've seen it very closely and from 1989's India Fine Arts big program where baltha gray was there and we started working towards how we will fight together till barasaheb and my father's note joke you know many times he'll say pramod this is not good and I still remember I have a lot of love towards parasite when my father was in the hospital came the last day doctor said it's not going to be possible for", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-21", "text": "day doctor said it's not going to be possible for him he came in and he just my father was in coma he told him pramod that you know that kind of connection was the alliance at that time later on after my father's demise Alliance also had its own other permutation combination other leadership connecting with each other so it was not the same Alliance which had no joke serious fights and it was completely different and the new alliance you're talking about I think we are working together and um it looks fairly good okay so um there was the slogan of you know in the center Narendra and then the state Devendra now that keeps coming up in the BJP State unit obviously it's not a very happy situation for a sitting chief minister to be told that his Alliance partner obviously a larger partner in this even though the numbers and whatever you might say in the State uh but in the whole bigger focus it is a larger partner so it's not a very comfortable situation", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-22", "text": "partner so it's not a very comfortable situation to know that your Reliance partner wants somebody else's chief minister see on a larger Prospect when you look at maharashtra's politics um how the alliances are made and suddenly everything the group got together just to oppose a leader Narendra Modi purposely and this this is not only a story of Maharashtra this started from Maharashtra to get everyone together in India to create an alliance just because they don't have their own power so this was the basic Foundation started from Maharashtra uh what happened with BJP and this shindeer Lions um foreign the message which we wanted to give to polity was very important to show that democratically select elected government suddenly Alliance is broken because you wanted certain things now what has happened in a room again that discussion comes out but then the government also with your non-ideological friends with our naughty ideological friends your father wouldn't have approved this is how udavji went forward with and there was nothing", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-23", "text": "how udavji went forward with and there was nothing happening in two and a half years when they were in power so the message was very important when you say nothing was happening what do you mean um in state of Maharashtra it was the three-party government was actually trying to survive on each other and certain aspects where they were letting go each other's even ideological differences yeah to hold on to their financial agreements that was the only thing I could look forward to financial agreements yeah because I could not see a single project which I was part of cm's war room with when Dave energy was the CM I was the only MP who was part of that war room with all the officers I have been part of making Metro nagpur samrati Maha I've learned from it I was fortunate enough to be part of it and when you see suddenly you don't want to work on the aspects which actually would have taken Maharashtra forward infrastructure bases and people Health infrastructure and health care and everything", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-24", "text": "bases and people Health infrastructure and health care and everything was about politics with each other and divided properties to each other just divided Properties by dispute but disputed properties cut politics was going on and I'm being very open about it and we have seen it in Mumbai for past many videos so for that to give a right message and even look at Mr shinde um I think this must have happened when Mr Chandra Babu Naidu when he broke the party and came out from his father-in-law's Shadow and lot of people supported him I think after that I don't think such a big bhukamp of political party we must have ever seen and it was a right message to give and which that message should have been respected I think are uh leadership gave a right message where and now the CM and DCM are working together very well uh taking every uh infra project together divided work taking things forward which is very important for us right now you said you were part of the war room so uh you", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-25", "text": "you were part of the war room so uh you know I had uh Priyanka chaturvedi also on this uh podcast she says that uh for certain there was a promise made to udav takare that he would be chief minister you were part of the War Room and that war room there are only few people see even uh the press conference she's talking about I was there I was the youth Wing president my boss that time was Amit Shah I worked under him for four years and uh we could not see anything which was I don't know what happened in behind doors but I know what Amit Bhai will come out and say is 100 true he doesn't have to hide behind the bushes and say if that discussion would have happened you could see on the faces of those leaders or in that press conference or afterward as a murder that nothing happened suddenly after 2019 election there was a you just wanted to create a certain drama to get more maybe out of certain thing", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-26", "text": "drama to get more maybe out of certain thing or taking certain things forward you cannot say something which has not happened you know before the press conference you would have known maybe your reporters would have known you know I don't think even there was a little bit of gossip about this that something else happened inside an Amit Bhai promised something which is not coming out so it is only one man saying it who's the second man supporting this it's family member only supporting that dialogue so I don't know what to say about it and you do take on both of them don't you yeah politically yes I have a lot of respect for them because you've known them also since childhood yeah yeah very much very much uh we shared a lot of good interest also together not political but with yes yes we used to yeah uh but when it comes to political ideology not an affair it's all fair because they always did that I had my experiences also when we were in Alliance so there were a", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-27", "text": "also when we were in Alliance so there were a lot of immature decisions also in the family they take it which is not correct but now here we are and there they are okay so this um until the last moment the talk in the media was who who and even now uh so far as a couple of weeks ago you know fadnavis G said that centered because as usual the gossip again is when is there going to be a reshuffle is going to go to Center what is going to happen but you know the gossip right now especially in this government and dispensation [Laughter] has been perfect isn't it I wish I could be trained more under him because he's one of the persons I look up to uh learned a lot and he gave me a freedom I mean I that attitude he has and maybe I can see ansh of my father and few people he's one of them a certain way of the mathematics and politics where is the right you know that he do but coming back to", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-28", "text": "right you know that he do but coming back to your question I think that decision is very respectfully was taken by both the parties BJP and balasaheb and the shindeer alliance and uh I don't think there is any uncomfortable air anywhere and once what a party and party leaders tell us I think that's what we follow okay so you know recently udhav ji said that uh pankaja munde is welcome into our party uh for those who wouldn't know much about Maharashtra politics she's your cousin and many feel that she has felt or she hasn't said anything but they feel that she probably got a raw deal after her father passed away your uncle I don't think so and she will also not support this because she was the most important minister in Devendra fadnova's government and she worked hard for it yes unfortunately she lost her election and when you lose an election because I have lost an election those five years are very difficult uh because you have to regain that first of all faith", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-29", "text": "because you have to regain that first of all faith in yourself how did that happen and then you have to correct your mistakes and certain ways to take things forward in that time problem with even media I mean I don't have any problem with that but they have to also to allow their 24 7 channels and so many channels are there in every medium Marathi in other languages also you need some kind of story sometimes you say something and it just comes out a little more what people think actually what the person has said now udavji wants to welcome anyone does not mean anybody wants to go to him but yeah because Sanjay Roth also said that neither Poonam Mahajan nor pankaja munde have got their due considering that it was their fathers both their fathers who set up uh BJP and uh in in in Maharashtra they are the founders of bjp's footprint so the two daughters haven't got their it's not a private limited company private Limited uh I was fortunate enough to win Lok", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-30", "text": "Limited uh I was fortunate enough to win Lok Sabha twice I became the National Youth Wing president because and I become I get that opportunity that means party is doing nothing for me abhi yeah respectfully contents this whole thing about nepotism it's a big thing you know for quite some time has always said so many of the others even now Cynthia also has joined your party now latest is Manpreet battle is also there now these are all political families you can't help it so does it make this whole Bhai batija allegation which is the BJP makes they have to go on the back foot do you think that is the nepo kid in the work language which has been called by all the youngsters they call you that not many but they call many people like that I'm just trying to be cooler being a Mumbai MP so that's what they use it in their Twitter slang the now Dynasty sounds very kissy it sounds pretty cool if it comes to me first first of all after my", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-31", "text": "it comes to me first first of all after my father's demise I did not got into a rajya Sabha which he left or I did not become a national general secretary because he was there I started as a Yuva morcha Maharashtra Maha mantri where I started my work then became National vice president after three years handled Tamil Nadu Karnataka these states were given to me where bgp was just Rising with youth specially and then I became a national secretary then Member of Parliament then you are mocha there it was not so quick for me and I don't think in BJP huh yeah [Music] their family get one opportunity for sure most of the times because that's even my father had set up that role which is not wrong does not mean they get everything what that man had or the woman who they lost or even when you talk about vasundaraji it was her constituency which has given it to her son tomorrow if you do a survey her son if he's not winnable", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-32", "text": "do a survey her son if he's not winnable tomorrow maybe someone else will get it tomorrow Poonam is not winnable somewhere else but because a person is someone's son or someone's daughter they're not holding that position that's what I'm trying to say uh I mean it's not about again I'm saying private limited company when the Congress president's son says that hamare parivar we all are together so getting someone to win winnability of election is uh I think accepted and I start with my own example yeah so and I try to say it I'm not the nipple kid you're talking about which you can see it in ships and uh maybe any other Southern parties and in Congress so when you yeah you in fact in your parliamentary speeches uh you keep saying that you know you accuse the Congress you don't really talk about women's issues you're only talking about a certain woman in her standing behind her yeah yes I do very straight with respect to that uh Sonia ji I mean I", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-33", "text": "with respect to that uh Sonia ji I mean I openly say it with due respect but they also who are the women who have done well in Congress very few and they compare it to bgp I find it quite laughable because if tomorrow Mrs Gandhi says that I would not be working Congress foreign he always goes on with God bless him I mean sometimes politically I don't know how much to stay say to a certain person I mean we really work hard constituency I mean that's good one thing I can see is fit physically but it's also revived the Congress to some extent like at least that's what I'm saying physically fit mentally a fitness there was a break you should have done that there are a lot of things intellectually it irritates me you speak with people in your constituency are they how are the Congress loyal Congress people reacting and how are people reacting in your constituency I I haven't seen the leaders of my constituency going and joining that's Point number one", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-34", "text": "my constituency going and joining that's Point number one uh Point number two um Congress Congress hey Congress if he used to see the state of Maharashtra is they have their own status there that's why they are winning then you call them as a congress voter called a vote or B persons vote C persons vote it doesn't matter foreign foreign how long that will go because NCP itself has its own leadership issues yeah so again even NCP sees it and nobody wants to talk about it because right now that's the mothership who's handling these little ships so they are trying to balance Congress and so what are the big issues tell me uh that Maharashtra will need to be you know will need to focus uh in uh in 2024 as the state goes closer to the national elections first that and the state elections what are the major issues because you know rest of the country thinks that are Maharashtra like you know it's a Rich place then why farmer suicides you have huge uh resources you have", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-35", "text": "farmer suicides you have huge uh resources you have everything going for you then why do you have people killing themselves see Maharashtra the problem is right now what we look at Maharashtra in political circumstances and fighting with each other that's not the Maharashtra we want to show to people 2014 to 2019 when BJP and chips and over in government we had our chief minister we worked on policies and Maharashtra people have to look Maharashtra Beyond Mumbai there is a Mumbai Metropolitan region which has 10 MPS and there is again Maharashtra which has nagpur marathwada which is a dry dead state where I come from the entire with her uttar Maharashtra Maharashtra is divided into this and we have of course very good resources we want to make Maharashtra as a fastest growing economy and we were doing that by 2019. in just those two and a half years from 2019 Reese till recently last year by June everything was divided into again I'm saying their own regions", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-36", "text": "was divided into again I'm saying their own regions and their own properties which they can earn from what we want to look forward to again though it was about infrastructure of Maharashtra connectivity of Maharashtra Farmers policies uh one very good uh idea Maharashtra government had done that the connectivity of water farmers and policies reaching out to Farmers the problem is these Cooperative Banks which are held by still held by many Congress and NCP leaders it was actually not reaching down to people the farmers who actually contribute in Maharashtra we want to get back to the same Maharashtra which we were working on from 2014 to 19 where we had the largest jatia morchas by supported a few political parties but the communication was good coordination was good everything they tried to stir up but Maharashtra was taking its you know driving its force with that making Maharashtra as a stronger State Mumbai 25 almost 25 percent of GDP Maharashtra contributes in India so how does Maharashtra take this forward and", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-37", "text": "India so how does Maharashtra take this forward and Farmers policies were not actually implemented in past two and a half years yeah we saw covet we understand that but because of covet I don't think any policies were stopped we still have 80 crore people getting a notch at their houses so it was more political we could see in Maharashtra in two and a half years which pushed back Maharashtra for many many years again but now suddenly since we are back in power metros are getting ready is ready infrastructure projects are ready building hospitals Health infrastructure working for Farmers whatever due was there for past two and a half years for Farmers have been paid so I think that growth we want to take this board in a very faster pace and people in Maharashtra are intellectual we always call it santoki bhumi hair we have so many fabulous writers coming from here so that Maharashtra again has to come together which was divided by political ideology by certain parties do you think that maharashtrians", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-38", "text": "certain parties do you think that maharashtrians by and large see a larger perspective they do they do and when we talk to people he foreign I think we are doing something right you know BJP is said to thrive only when they are on their own as a coalition partner it and as you know as a junior partner simply because you know your person is a deputy chief minister so do app automatically Junior partner it sits it's a little uneasy you will go into 2024 in a partnership only I don't think I should be saying anything about this right now but uh I remember 1995 to 1999 when we had shifts in our BJP coalition government ships and had their CM or hamare DCM but there were two stronger leader who did not let things you know there was a balance is the home minister and deputy chief minister was a bigger leader so it was balasaha and promoji used to coordinate things were not uneasy of course shivsana has a style of you know um", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-39", "text": "course shivsana has a style of you know um that attitude very nice I don't know how to put it forward we used to balance it out what happened was after balasaheb that same maturity and that you know balancing attitude but just went down and then miscommunication started and of course then we realized miscommunications so in coming times I completely believe I still remember in 2004 elections same thing happened balasah was not taking many decisions it was handling certain elections at that time also it little bit irritated in my father that they're not the same how it should be going and he said that was my father's life so of course BJP always said shut up when my father planned this alliance with shipsana does not mean that BJP always wanted an alliance so bgp when they are alone they do well but we take care of our alliance Partners also what happens in 2024 right now for us is Mumbai election very important coming first nagar palika elections after that bigger", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-40", "text": "coming first nagar palika elections after that bigger Corporation elections where we know we'll do well but taking the promises of people forward and again working on a hat-trick for honorable prime minister Narendra Modi because that's a leadership right now India especially in the world we need it yeah so um even in Karnataka the party is going to go in with Modi as the face and even in the nine states which are going to polls it's going to be he's going to be leading the campaign and the agenda as such um in Maharashtra in in these smaller elections which are like the semi-finals quarter finals to 2024 it's going to be modiji's face was the Prime Minister we used to push atalji's face as a main face for every election and we had uh State leaders who could take the agenda forward so it's nothing new modiji's popularity and his way of connecting with people is I mean if I say historical which everybody knows um in every state election also we have state faces", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-41", "text": "um in every state election also we have state faces when fadnavasji was there and still here of course we'll be contesting her election under his leadership because and the State president of Maharashtra which will always do it so this quarter final semi-final we still need a main leader we are not saying Modi ji has to come down to fight for us he is coming he's coming because there are such big projects first time the old Victoria Terminus which became chatrapati shivaji Maharaja Terminus in the BJP government is gonna get a big facelift Mumbai cars who are suffering in those trains are getting more and more better and that comes under Railway Ministry so we want our prime minister to come and say you will have your traffic issues I apologize for the MBA government that they did not do anything but now you'll see by 2024 you will have Metro three and then bullet train will connect it will go forward so because I know how it works when the bgp government is there so don't", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-42", "text": "works when the bgp government is there so don't worry okay okay so I let me come back to Parliament you know you were talking about how Parliament session he's going on but you have a very good attendance record in 78 percent 70 questions that's a very good record uh of sorts we have better once again competitive ways you're all competing with each other in the BJP that's her you're not competing with others it's because when you have any boss who's actively involved in everything 24 7 working numbers you know this is very important this teaches us if we are tomorrow's leaders and people are expecting you to perform well this India have such a big population being the world leader now and in coming 25 years when we celebrate 100 Years of Independence we will be somewhere there so we need to learn from the great you know after after the executive was over the meeting was over he came out and he said that the Prime Minister said that in the next few years like you have to you're in", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-43", "text": "the next few years like you have to you're in this position is important every bit of you has to work towards you know bringing this nation forward I agree so uh it's it's a big ask out of everybody that you have to set aside everything else and just work is it it's not a big ass for a BJP caricarta frankly I remember my father was I mean I was not born at that time but the stories I always hear my mother telling me my father was in jail for 18 months in emergency in nasik jail where actually he learned how to give speeches reading books so for a BJP person giving their 24 7 100 I don't think it's too much to ask we are built like that we are built like that I don't know I mean I don't believe that other parties have ever done that is so for us it's not a ask it's more of an excitement you know loving your country fighting for your country that nationalism if we don't have it hyper", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-44", "text": "country that nationalism if we don't have it hyper nationalism but this anti-nationalism is also not accepted that you want to be just this armchair liberal person sitting and saying uh you should be proud of it that we are discussing 75 years if you go to those liberals go Europe or America discuss their history and say yes very quick to label other people now and we are not labeling anyone but it's not our job but I do call a lot of people um there is a left narrative which of course many of my friends which are not very uh in the main dhara of the country so sometimes we have issues why will I call them anti-national I'm just saying hyper nationalism and Hyper anti-nationalism is not even in the Bombay film industry if you notice that people the Bombay film industry is now saying that this this whole thing has it's originated politically and then it became mainstream where if you bring anything which is mildly controversial or something it becomes highly sensitive or", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-45", "text": "controversial or something it becomes highly sensitive or immediately anti-national I mean now it's a free world where you have social media now there are many you also face I also face faceless nameless amazing people who like to question you all the time I have no idea why but film industry is saying the Bollywood so-called Hindi sorry Indian film industry that we are labeling them I don't think so I mean all of them you know um but I believe it was even discussed uh like the Prime Minister also said um what he said I really supported it I clapped for it I said that yeah see uh foreign a lot of people talk about vulgarity in a certain discussion I say I understand key vulgarity nudity Society how do we behave how do we act what should we what is our responsibility towards the society in such but you cannot be every time freedom of expression I don't believe in that how do we take this nation forward that the problem is people have opinion on everything", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-46", "text": "forward that the problem is people have opinion on everything Sometimes some people ask me what do you think about certain things I said I don't know anything about it why should I talk about it so this that's a very young politician maybe I'm an old soul but you did speak with Java Farmers you immediately said yes I've seen it very close friends of mine also creating this narrative they're still good friends of mine but narrative you see it's even among journalists this divisions occur but uh there was a time division see I don't believe see maybe I try to balance the yesterday's style of working today style of working where without social media how people used to communicate um I don't care uh if people question foreign so you have to decide uh where now Urban nuxil I call them but I meet those friends they are my very good friends uh this sometimes they say it on my face your party is this I said yeah your idea is this this is not good there is a lot of good", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-47", "text": "this is not good there is a lot of good pulling legs up to us also problem is so we are just following a certain way I think now this hyper ADHD generation that's why I keep calmer to tell them I'm more aggressive but I've realized if I become aggressive 24 7. this is what people will even follow so you have children who are a young generation yeah I'm learning from them yes yes they're Genesis disease so do they tell you mom don't say this moms no not at all they find me pretty cool I'm a cool mother actually they're children and their friends also find me very cool area because I know my son is my voter now he's 18 now oh goodness so I need to balance but it's yeah I I learned from them and sometimes about certain so my daughter said what is going on this TV um I said someone's wearing little clothes that's why there's a discussion going on in a certain Channel but that's her decision right I said will you wear this", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-48", "text": "that's her decision right I said will you wear this she said I don't like to wear that does not mean she should not wear it I said okay I'll remember this yeah so he said but she's not naked I mean my she lost she's almost 10 then you have to think of it certain way in society where we are going and when people are looking at you as your leaders of the society we cannot be just following the trend so you're receptive to ideas henna yeah very much very much not to my sons and daughters ideas much because no is the only answer I give the first time so do you want to stay with a state politics do you want to go into Center at some point of time what is your what is your dream uh as far as your career in politics is concerned it's like in politics because it's such a difficult uh and specially I won't generalize it but as a woman also it's very tough to handle your house work be a particular way where", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-49", "text": "to handle your house work be a particular way where you're safe mentally physically politically there are a lot of aspects you have to look at um I haven't dreamed anything coming into politics was not my dream but I take it as a project that I have to do well my only agenda is whatever has come to me I cannot fail it I have to do better because this is what my father did now that always plays on me subconsciously I just I'm concentrating on my constituency I want to show 2024 also though there are three parties together six parties together okay for me my agendas are very clear and whatever responsibility is given to me I enjoyed my four years of you are more Justin Northeast South where actually you are much I was not growing made a lot of friends first time I was the first year much who went to Srinagar had a huge rally so I'm at a right pace where we want now Maharashtra to come out of this whole fight between certain private", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "651494f3525d-50", "text": "to come out of this whole fight between certain private limited parties and take Maharashtra forward with India and 2024 is going to be a cakewalk for PJP in Maharashtra and in the country you feel you know I don't want to sound overconfident saying Cakewalk but I'm extremely confident that people when I meet people their faith in pgp an honorable prime minister their expectations from us make us realize [Music] going through my constituency only so double indices well wishing you all the luck Poonam thank you so much for being part of the podcast and I hope you go forward and make India proud and make your party proud try my best thank you so much thank you thank you for watching or listening into this podcast do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste thank you foreign [Music]", "source": "XUPleA4uysk"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-0", "text": "before 1982 India didn't have one single missile which it has developed on its own today we have developed feet and we are developed the series of acne missiles and then other missiles like cruise missiles nearby and brahmos then we have also developed air-to-air missile Astra then we have developed the Akash surface to her missile India is one of the six countries which have developed their own main battle tank arshan the 155 mm artillery gun has been developed in the country and you must have heard honorable prime minister talking about it on 15th of August attacks was used in the firing on that 15th August ceremonial firing and he said well today recognizes India as having multiple Technologies and multiple systems and that's why we see that there are lots of inquiries coming from many countries across the globe the call given by honorable prime minister that make for the world he is helping giving the Boost to the industries I feel that the youngsters the way the number of startups", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-1", "text": "that the youngsters the way the number of startups have come the way they are joining these organizations it's a movement which has come up in the country Namaste welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash if you open your Twitter feed your Instagram or your Facebook page how many of you are following scientists not many I'm guessing how many posts do you get about information about scientific achievements of our countrymen and women hardly any most of you like me would get bombarded with information about politicians actors models and some sports persons but science not really now let's think about this that many of us when we were children wanted to become say a NASA scientist a marine biologist a fighter pilot but then somewhere along the line we picked up mundane jobs and those dreams died today my guest is a scientist he wanted to be a scientist and he pursued his dream Dr Satish Reddy headed the defense research and development organization and is currently Scientific Advisor to raksha mantri dealing with a program which", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-2", "text": "to raksha mantri dealing with a program which spearheads India's indigenous development of Defense systems and Technologies joining me in this conversation is my colleague Ajit Dubai defense editor of ani Dr Reddy thank you very much for coming on the podcast I've met you off camera many times it's taken a long time for Ajit and me to get you on camera here um thank you so Ajit you'll have to assist me in these in this conversation because you have the domain expertise let's begin with the India's strategic missile program I have a brief explainer for those who don't know about it and then we can get on with the conversation India's integrated guided missile program igmdp was launched in 1982-83. it can of prithvi the short range surface-to-surface missile trishul the short-range surface-to-air missile Akash medium range surface-to-air missile nag the third generation anti-tank missile Agni 1 Agni missile was separated from the igmdp due to its strategic importance Dr Reddy now please give us", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-3", "text": "its strategic importance Dr Reddy now please give us an overview of this missile system Indian missile program has gone long way and a number of missiles have been developed varieties of missiles have been developed and the missiles whether it is surface to surface missiles or Surface to air missiles or air-to-air missiles or anti-tank missiles and many other varieties of missiles which have been developed in the country and the country has gained a lot of knowledge and has become I say that self-sufficient and self-reliant in the missile Technologies today by developing all these varieties of missiles range of missiles what Any Nation would like to have based on their Necessities the country has developed all this and in the process developed multiple Technologies also which are required part of these missiles right let's go back a little into history you know many of our listeners and viewers wouldn't know about the many hurdles that came in the way of India developing its missile program after India testified the first prithvi", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-4", "text": "missile program after India testified the first prithvi missile in 1988 and the Agni missile in 1989 the missile technology control regime then it was an informal grouping established in 1987 by Canada France Germany Italy Japan the UK and the US they decided to restrict access to any technology that would help India in its missile development program to counter this the igmdp team formed a Consortium of drdo Laboratories Industries and academic institutions to build these subsystems and components and materials though this slow down the progress of the program India successfully developed indigenously all the restricted components denied to it by this regime so I want you to go a little bit into the history about how the West came down cracking on us in the 1980s to restrict our missile program why it happened and how did the Indian defense set up the drdo and all get over these restrictions a very important question um when the country started this missiles program when we tested Agni and when we had tests at okran and other", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-5", "text": "and when we had tests at okran and other tests so there have been restrictions put on this country the missile control regimes and things like that so the various sub components or critical systems subsystems which we have been dependent on the foreign Nations that have become very restricted but I think that has helped the country and you have to develop yourself and so that was taken as a mission to develop all these critical subsystems and components which are required in these missiles Technologies they all have been developed over a period of time indigenous indigenously and Industry could take that and Industry is producing and today I can say that the indigence content in our missile programs is very very high and I can definitely say that we are not dependent for any critical subsystems and things like that from anyone and all these things are developed here in the country and Industry is able to produce them and that's how the missiles are also getting developed very fast as you have the complete to know how one know why in the", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-6", "text": "the complete to know how one know why in the country but so at that time it must have set us back quite a bit isn't it when suddenly it just there was a freeze and how how much did it set us back adding to it sir you have been a scientist since mid 80s you must have faced personally you have been associated in the missile Labs what difficulties did you people used to face at that time because of this restrictive regimes see what has happened is we were also in the phase of development of the missiles and so you are not looking for you know large number of subsystems or components what you get from outside the day we started the missile programs the leadership at that time definitely thought that we also let us develop parallel and then parallel development has also work started off these subsystems and critical Technologies when there has been a restriction which has come into picture so definitely that has put us into some troubles that you are not able to immediately get anything what you", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-7", "text": "you are not able to immediately get anything what you look for and all that and some what you have already got them which are there in the stock you use it for immediate use and so the indigenous program has been accelerated and they have been in a very serious importance is given to that and lots of teams have been put in and industries have been brought in parallely and there have been a very serious Trust on that like example at the time I was a young navigational engineer and we were having the navigational sensors and components which we were getting from outside from where various countries from outside and those things we immediately worked on it and we could make uh indigenously all those things where where were we making it uh we were making it with various Industries development was happened in RCI where I was working but this particular sensor because that is the lab which is responsible for this in the initial navigation systems and we could develop in the laboratory there and industries have worked", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-8", "text": "in the laboratory there and industries have worked with us and even in fact the public sectors that time Hal and bell and then couple of private Industries together we could develop it in very fast and we can say that in those Technologies now we are completely self-reliant and we could develop it I don't think there was a serious setback or anything yes there was some uh you know some delay in some programs but then country could cope up and that is what is the best has happened to the country yes you could develop necessity being mother of invention you're right yeah that's the thing at that time so we developed those critical Technologies at that phase and realized that that it could happen all over again to us at some point of time did it happen again when you know when we did our nuclear blasts again you know by that time mostly we have been self-sufficient yes there have been restrictions and all that that's what I was telling you that I'm also the program test", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-9", "text": "was telling you that I'm also the program test and all that and in phases but majority of the technical analogies we could develop ourselves and then the phase of that mission of indigenously developing was continuously going on and then it could get all the systems which are required for us mostly here in the country and Sir uh like uh during that era you had very strong leaders the drdo or the missile teams had very strong leaders like Dr Kalam now did that help because they had the access they had the will and uh uh that did having a strong leader like Dr Kalam help the drdo in achieving um you are very right in that saying that actually see if you look at before 1982 India didn't have one single missile which it has developed on its own and then because of the leadership of Dr Kalam when a country doesn't have one missile you could go to the government and get an approval and a sanction for five missiles at one go that is the integrated guided measures development", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-10", "text": "one go that is the integrated guided measures development program where uh five missiles which have been taken up and I don't think without that type of a leadership we could have got such a program sanctioned and then a trust is given to this development indigenously that leadership helped and in fact not only missiles the same leadership so we could get the Arjun tank program we could get the light combat aircraft program and that is what is the leadership definitely has helped in getting the necessary trust required for the indigenous development of these systems so the system that you're talking about are systems that we have uh we keep hearing about India facing a two-front war scenario and planning and things that go into it um tell me how how is India placed as far as our integrated missile development program is concerned vis-a-vis China and Pakistan see as I told you the country has developed many missiles which are required by the Armed Forces as a the requirement comes from the Armed Forces all those massage", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-11", "text": "requirement comes from the Armed Forces all those massage development has been taken up and that's how if you look at it today we have developed feed and we are developed the series of Agni missiles and then other missiles like cruise missiles nirvite and brahmos then we have also developed air to air missile Astra then we have developed the Akash surface to air missile and also we developed a medium range surface to air missile and then anti-tank missiles so many missiles which the armed forces require the country needs looking at the various requirements have been developed and I say that we meet all the requirements of the Armed Forces today based on their Necessities which they need for protecting our borders have been developed and or being developed here in the country so the launch of Agni 5 it caught the imagination of the country how proud should India be of the Agni 5. Agni 5 is one of the long range missiles and the countries is proud as many technologies have gone", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-12", "text": "the countries is proud as many technologies have gone into it and a very long range very high Precision missile and which has been developed and flight tested which has been very very successful it has many Technologies which have gone into it and so country is naturally very proud of that missile being developed range of the missile now why do we need icbms is a very basic question we don't have if you see our threat perceptions you know uh it's a very basic question which people ask and I don't have an answer so I'm asking you this that we don't have a threat perception from very far away enemies so why do we need an ICBM I don't know whether we should talk about icbms or whatever it is the ranges of the missiles based on the needs looking at all friends um the armed forces have looked at that and then looked for certain ranges and that's how the missiles have been developed looking at those ranges sir like Agni five the first test was about three four years", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-13", "text": "Agni five the first test was about three four years back it was very successful we have been carrying out modifications and developments in the this program now we also hear that the range is much more than what is acknowledged in the public domain uh what is the need for uh developing further developing the the missiles and is there a point where we are thinking of a longer range Agni 6 or say Agni 5 plus kind of a missiles see basically agnify has been developed as one of the long-range missiles what the country has been looking for and in the beginning it has been tested very successfully in our net I don't think any major changes have gone through or anything in the system one system is very robust system some here and there based on the Technologies which come up here and there and some upgradations go on in any any system some similar things would have gone into the system otherwise the system is developed and it's a robust system and very successful program what magnify is and we", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-14", "text": "and very successful program what magnify is and we don't need to develop a longer range six so that I wouldn't be able to answer as the requirements and the operations requirement whatever comes up and that is what drdo takes up as such the programs there was this one incident that happened in 2021 of this brahmos missile Landing up in Pakistan it was an accident and after that Pakistan has gone to town that we don't have systems in place how did that accident happen our safeguards in place to see that these kind of accidents don't happen and uh how do you explain to the world or how how is India to explain to the world that it was we do have a robust system in place uh I think the Air Force has looked into that matter and they have gone into details of the thing what has happened and all that and based on the analysis and the report what has come through I think I'm not very deep into it or I have not gone into the details of", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-15", "text": "it or I have not gone into the details of it but Air Force has put in all the measures to see that such incidents won't occur again right we were talking about long-range missiles what about the the short range ones you know the the Drone ones the Nano missiles are we developing that and also what is the threat from those as far as our enemies are concerned firstly there are lots of slaughtering missiles which have been developed in the country like uh if you look at anti-tank missiles which are just very short range as just few kilometers similarly if you look at surface tear missiles you have varieties of missiles which range from short to medium range sort of even whether it's Akash or you talk about Mr Sam or something like that and all that and there have been many drones Technologies also which have been developed in the country India is one of the first few countries in the world which has developed a anti-drone technology in the country which has been put in use in multiple", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-16", "text": "the country which has been put in use in multiple occasions and with multiple Technologies which have been which has got a hard kill and soft kill all those options and all that so a lot of work has been going on in this direction after drone based Technologies and anti-drone Technologies in the country working to the current requirements which are happening in the world answer uh like uh this anti-drone technology that you're talking about this this has been in use uh for uh giving protection to the prime minister's speech at the Independence Day as well as on the Republic Day for the parade uh how effective has has it been sir and uh has it uh secured any successes in field deployments no it has been actually used only after successful trials and trials have been done and it has been tested used and so the system is very successful and that's how the technology has been transferred to the industries and industries are producing those Technologies now as I said we are one of the first few countries in", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-17", "text": "said we are one of the first few countries in the world who have developed such class of Technologies of Android drone system in on the missiles things so we've talked about these mobile launch pads launch systems uh what about submarine and ship-based number of systems are developed on various platforms like today we have brahmos on the ship we have also medium range surface to our missiles on the shapes and we are also developing short range missiles on these so a lot of marine applications related Technologies and missile systems are also developed and being developed today an answer like uh the in the earlier part of the conversation you said now the development of the time span taken to develop a new missile has become shorter can you explain like earlier how long did it take to develop a missile like say from Agni 2 to Agni 3 and now how much time how much have you been able to with this experience of developing missiles how much time does it take for drdo to develop a new missile from", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-18", "text": "take for drdo to develop a new missile from drawing board to field deployment see the firstly when you look at 1980s the ecosystem was not evolved whether it is the research in Academia or the r d of things various Technologies subsystems what you require are various infrastructure in the country and Industry coming up and all that so it used to take a good amount of time any program used to take maybe anything six seven eight years out of a program what it has been taking up and as the ecosystem has come up see if you look at in 1980s we have maybe very few interesting maybe 10 or 15 Industries which were working at 20 Industries and they were all built to print and nobody was having any capability to develop anything on our specifications and similarly algorithms studies simulations doing in Academia and all also were just coping up and just trying to come up and in the Laboratories also one side developing the systems and then working on the subsystems and all that so that has", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-19", "text": "working on the subsystems and all that so that has come up and today you have the industries which are able to do build to specifications you have all the Technologies which you have developed it the number of Industries have gone huge number of Industries have come into picture today various academic institutes who are able to work almost on the same plane and same level at you to cope up and develop the Technologies so this has brought in a sea change uh one example I can give and will prime minister SRI Narendra Modi ji has directed a guided drdu to develop the anti-satellite mission which actually has its a mission which needs to be done confidentially he has said try to do it in as short as possible shortest time more like in about two years that missile has been developed and then successfully it has been demonstrated and that is the capability country has gained and it is just a technical demonstration which actually honorable prime minister wanted that to show to the world that India has", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-20", "text": "wanted that to show to the world that India has the technological capabilities to to take up such critical and large yeah so and that has been done in a very short time so that is what actually the evolution of the ecosystem has helped the country to develop these things faster now and that the mission Shakti or the ASAT missile sir that is in the that is in the class of say a missile like uh Agni Agni series I wouldn't be able to compare exactly like that but it is a mission on it so it's the same same level let's say it's a mission on its hand it's it's a different class of a missile which is required for this sort of operations of anti-satellite thing which is a just a technology demonstration and I'm trying to say that that could be developed in a very short span of time and same way the prolife was also developed a multiple missiles today even quicker action surface to air missile has been developed very fast the Prada has been", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-21", "text": "has been developed very fast the Prada has been developed very fast and many other systems which are coming quicker than earlier I would say definitely now what we say the averages for developing a particular missile system like say the QR Sam uh earlier uh it would have taken us six to seven years now if we have to quantify it in generally I think we take now almost about three to four years is one thing what you can do so reduction is around 50 almost yes okay so uh as a Modi uh missile man uh I this question obviously will come to you that you know when the balakot strike happened uh at that time there were many reports which said that um that because of our missile system uh that is why Pakistan thought and rethought about any kind of a strike uh on us uh would you agree to that see I say definitely that India is now a technologically it has got all the Technologies it has got all class of missiles which has developed which are available which", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-22", "text": "of missiles which has developed which are available which are required by Army Air Force and Navi whether it is talking about missiles like air-to-air missile where have Astra which has a very good range and capability we have done very good surface to air missiles which have both short and medium range applications and so you look at where it is a missiles that is cruise missiles you have cruise missiles so all these things make the country a good missile technological house having all these capabilities so that works as a deterrent anytime so you think that these kind of flashes which happen like the Bala coat one they got diffused more because we had capability and capacity um I definitely say that if you look at the world we are one of the first five six countries who possess all these Technologies and capabilities today we stand definitely at that if you look at anti-satellite test what we are done we are the fourth Nation after Russia America and China were done so that's the capability what you got so that", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-23", "text": "done so that's the capability what you got so that works definitely as a deterrent that the country has such capabilities and Sir like when we talk about uh these missiles that you are mentioning now brahmos is one of the most successful missiles that have come from the drdos table now we are also getting export orders for the missile sir now uh before we got that export orders we had a we had a kind of a clash with the Chinese for which is still going on the military standoff where India stood up to the Chinese bully bullying and took it on now you think that that Goodwill that India is a strong Nation can take on big bully countries like China that helps you when you when people go out when Indians go out and say tell the countries that you should buy this missile or that the brahmos or the other missiles see the world is definitely watching and world knows what we are doing and it has been many of the things have been in the public domain and so", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-24", "text": "the things have been in the public domain and so definitely world today recognizes in India as having multiple Technologies and multiple systems which India has developed today and that's why we see that there are lots of inquiries coming from many countries across the globe for various systems not even not just missiles alone there have been lots of requirements coming on Radars and Torpedoes and various other systems which are there in the developed by the country so World definitely is recognizing and recognized as as a country which has developed indigenously many of these Technologies and systems and I am sure that coming years it is going to be a sea change particularly uh with the present government emphasizing on make in India on Atman Bharat has helped a lot in making many of these things in the country today and making the Technologies and filling in the Technologies Gap and then also giving the message to the world that India has developed many of these capabilities Technologies and they are available which probably are lower in cost and the call", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-25", "text": "available which probably are lower in cost and the call given by annual prime minister that make for the world he is helping giving the Boost to the industries that we should supply to the world globally and people are marketing and there have been lots of Interest shown by the many countries today so like uh like we've talked about a lot of missiles that have come from uh which have been developed within the country what are the developments like in field of other weapon systems like tanks and other armaments and Radars including The Radars let me tell you a lot of activities have gone in the country lots of systems have been developed here in the country particularly talking about the tanks India is one of the six countries which have developed their own main battle tank arshan so Mach 1 has gone into the Armed Forces mark one yay again honorable Prime Ministers handed over the first tank to the armed forces in a event and it is being now produced and that also gets inducted into it and now", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-26", "text": "and that also gets inducted into it and now country is poised for developing many other tanks which are required by the Armed Forces second you know that the 155 mm artillery gun has been developed in the country and you must have heard honorable prime minister talking about it on 15th of August from when the attacks was used in the firing on that 15th August ceremonial firing yes that one yeah and he said is a prestigious gun which has got a very long range 155 modelery gun is another thing we have developed many Torpedoes for ourselves and we have developed many sonars and you said redas is another very big success story of the country country has become completely self-reliant from right from the modules which are required to making varieties of Radars whether it is ground-based Radars are talking about ship base Radars are the Airborne Radars country has developed varieties of Radars from short range median range Battlefield Radars two very long Range Rovers if the country has developed and", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-27", "text": "long Range Rovers if the country has developed and the country has got the complete Technologies I can say countries completely self-reliant today in Radars so likewise many technologies have been developed sonar's country has developed the sonars many communication systems which are required a country has developed many ammunitions which are required also country has developed so lot of these Technology and Engineering things which are required for the Armed Forces various Bridges and other things which are required are the Reiki and support vehicles and things like that or the wield armored platforms these are all the various things which have been developed in the country so what about aircraft let's move to that because we are still importing most of the components that we need when are we going to have our own aircraft LCA of course firstly LCA is an indigenously developed aircraft that's our aircraft it is our own aircraft indigenous maybe we have used some systems and components from outside that says operating you own the design you own the complete", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-28", "text": "says operating you own the design you own the complete system as your own design and developed system and all that yes the engine has been imported in that and country has also worked on the engines and the country has developed the cover engines but there has been a gap between the actual requirement and this so but the certain capabilities in the country has been developed in that and country is working on trying to fill these gaps but LCA is a very successful story which has paved the way far development of further aircrafts which are required for the country now and the weapons and technology which go with those aircraft absolutely all the Technologies today whichever go into the fighter aircraft to many of those technology whether it's talk about navigation system or control activation systems or talk about as I said onboard radar or electronic systems what are required for the electronic warfare and Outlet are also developed here in the country all those even in fact the other aircrafts which you have bought from outside also are being equipped", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-29", "text": "you have bought from outside also are being equipped with our own and systems today in the upgradation program completely indigenous systems are going into it now so site of Cold War the country you know that and the critical thing that it has to be done now so at that time we have there was this uh SR-71 this pipeline which was developed and it was like that is considered to be the best in the business even till today it is considered the best spy plane what about India see India started developing indigenous systems which actually mostly earlier the research was going on and all that developing systems or systems of systems the phase started in 1980s the development of everything here in the country and completely indigenous the trust has come from the present government very seriously and trying to see that everything to be developed here in the country like so two years ago when prime minister decided that everything all import deals to be stopped or put on hold yeah that was amazing major decision where that you try to make everything", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-30", "text": "amazing major decision where that you try to make everything here in the country you work out what's all being imported and try to see we have worked out we have prepared the list of items across the mod what are all being imported and trying to get all of them developed through industry and r d organizations here in the country and one by one one by and various things and various schemes have been launched to support the industry to come out with these so these impossible deadlines were set for all our labs for all our system Engineers absolutely it is as a whole of Ministry of Defense including the Laboratories industry because it is not just Laboratories alone which can develop it and the industry has a lot of capabilities industry also has come up in a big way lots of startups have also come up in the country so you are identifying you put it in the website all those Technologies and look for who can develop a lot some can be developing the bigger Industries or msmes or startups or some", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-31", "text": "bigger Industries or msmes or startups or some by Laboratories and all are being developed and there is a Thrust given to see that you try to make everything here in the country in the aircraft technology everything in in every aspect every aspect like sir if you could tell our listeners and viewers that what are the aircraft that we are now developing sir see as you know that firstly the LCA has been developed mark one and Mark one a has come which Air Force has given 83 numbers there are lots of new technologies which has come into it and also we are trying to develop the naval version of it and you have seen that's why the LCA has landed on the earlier aircraft carrier now on vikrant also just landed and that is an important feat what the country has achieved one is that you have developed the Technologies for aircraft landing on uh aircraft carrier and taking off those technologies have been established second on a new commissioned aircraft carrier which is INS vikrant which honorable", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-32", "text": "aircraft carrier which is INS vikrant which honorable prime minister just couple of months has commissioned that which is again a very very important step in the country's development of marine systems having your own such a huge ship developed where airports are able to land and take off with very high indigenous content is one of the important things so those technologies have been developed and there are efforts in the country to develop the further further aircraft which are required for the Air Force there have been lot of design efforts and development efforts which are going on in the country which actually as is our time is evolving the requirements of the Air Force all those Technologies all the terms of Technologies are also being worked out you're talking about the M Casa multiple both fourth generation and fifth generation Technologies there have been lot of efforts going on in the country so you talked about how you people put out your requirements for making everything in India on your websites and the startups and the industry respond to it how like", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-33", "text": "the startups and the industry respond to it how like the Prime Minister talking about that there are 90 000 startups in the country which have come in the last nine years what is the scene of startups in defense Industries and how is how do we now like uh the Americans or the advanced Western countries they have a military industrial complex that's huge like they have their lockheeds boeings uh Bas are we going towards the uh situation where we also have our big Industries big players in uh industry making big systems like aircraft and tanks and everything uh it's a very important question and it's a ranging question firstly you said about startups startups it's a actually I say that it has now my it's a moment which has come up in the country it's a phenomenal growth the way number of startups have come in the country as you said and prime minister said the way in the last few years how the startups have come if you look at maybe eight nine years back we had very", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-34", "text": "look at maybe eight nine years back we had very minimal startups here in the country now the numbers have gone so high and the numbers working in defense and Aerospace also have gone into thousands today thousands of startups are working in defense and Aerospace Technologies youngsters 23 24 25 years people they're working some time back you asked about drones the complete drones related technology there are more than 100 150 startups which have come up and there was uh drones related Technologies in fact there was an exhibition where honorable prime minister also was there in the exhibition to see and people and that was exhibited by other 120 drones there similarly the youngsters are working on all these components various pair bars subtechnologies new technologies which are required new propulsion systems new materials no you know new engine related Technologies the startups are working in multiple directions and that's one important change which has come here in the country which I think country it will be taken up into a new dimension there are many number of schemes which", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-35", "text": "a new dimension there are many number of schemes which have been launched also particularly various Ministries and definitely Ministry of Defense also has put in to support these industries whether it's idec scheme which is coming from the DDP to promote Innovations particularly in the startups and msmes in drdu the technology development funding where you're promoting r d capability in msmes and startups to come out with many Technologies and many subsystems and developing prototypes they have comment which are giving the Boost and industries have come up in a big way there are a large number of Industries today there are close to about 2000 Industries which are working as Tire one and type 2 Industries and then as the type 3 Industries there are lots of systems have come into and the private Industries have been given a big boost who started entered into many systems development today lots of systems are coming up from private Industries big Industries which can develop bigger systems where you require large infrastructure also coming to", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-36", "text": "systems where you require large infrastructure also coming to picture can you give us a few examples of what I'm coming to that um see missiles were never developed by private Industries earlier today missiles and bombs were being developed by the Private Industry there are number of Industries which are working on the missiles Radars people are working on any examples in the missiles multiple missiles there are actually multiple missiles which have come from them like you example if you look at a very prominent example like attacks is coming from a private industry today's two industries are developed VAP build or more platform coming from another Private Industry the light tank is coming from another Private Industry today so if you look at it there are so many things which are coming from Private Industry today and erdu has actually brought in a concept of um program called dcpp development production pattern where when drdo takes up any project right from the research or development onwards the dcpp that is development production partner Giants at the development so the complete know-how and", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-37", "text": "Giants at the development so the complete know-how and knowledge is transferred so that industry would be able to develop the further systems on its own many systems have been gone into the industry uh that way today so the Private Industry particularly evolving in the defense is one again a sea change of what has happened in the last few years these industries which are coming up and that's how the infrastructure also in the country has been developed you said there are hundreds of startups which have which are working in the field of drones so can we say Sir that now we see a lot of this swarm drone Warfare going on in Azerbaijan Armenia or in different parts of the world we can say for this drone Warfare the startup and the Private Industry can arm the Indian Defense Forces see as I said the complete drone technology today is almost everything is developed by Private Industry in in for multiple applications whether it is for surveillance or other pizza delivery that's what is um in fact actually uh there have been", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-38", "text": "what is um in fact actually uh there have been One requirement which has been projected that the in the hilly regions the transporting of which vaccines other things and all also which actually somebody the farmers have to sell it then they have to carry it in a nearby town and a hilly region going down going up and up those things and ice packs it takes a long time in these regions for people you know for the anganwadi worker to climb those Hills reach the place some Primary Health Care Centers don't have those facilities so drone technology can I believe help in this helping and many policies have been brought in and the startups are working in this in the multiple domains the Drone has got lots of applications and so they are all working in everything in in every possible area they're trying to work on including the Warfare domain everything including the defense domain okay answer like you talked about uh that now we have a robust industrial base now we have a very vibrant startup system where", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-39", "text": "now we have a very vibrant startup system where startups are held they are producing for the Defense Forces now the prime minister is also or the government has also been talking about make for the world now is this the reason why we are seeing that the exports are going up and imports have come down in the country see firstly the Imports are coming down with the direction from the government that we should try to make everything here in the country there has been a drive towards this direction to make every subcompetent system subsystems and all that are being developed through industry through startups through r d organizations based on the type of the system it is being developed and so the inputs are coming down and the capability in the country as such as an ecosystem to develop all these defense Technologies has gone up in a big way and the country is able to develop many systems on its own today wherein earlier which you were trying to import these systems they are all being developed today see like we have made our own", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-40", "text": "being developed today see like we have made our own not American which we are developing today we have made our own Torpedoes we are making our own Vehicles today we have our our aircraft the government has cleared 83 numbers for induction of lcas so these are all large systems of indigenous items which are going in into the systems saving a lot of Foreign Exchange and same time as your technologies have the capability has gone up and industries have come up where they are able to produce these systems and make as per the quality requirements and all that so naturally there is a market for it globally and so lots of countries have shown interest and in the varieties of systems in this and so the exports have picked up and last one year more than 13 000 crores worth of equipment has been exported and looking at the inquiries and looking at the new systems what we are developing and these numbers will be going up in a big way in the coming years I guess the Prime Minister has given a target of 5", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-41", "text": "guess the Prime Minister has given a target of 5 billion dollars by 2025. um definitely the country is going in this direction and trying to you think we would be able to uh definitely I say that it is in this direction going on and the way inquiries are coming India is going to convert itself into a leading exporter in the coming years that much I can definitely tell you and sir you talked about uh having a robust uh development like country having made achievements in radar technology and all now uh coming to this now we have the ballistic missile defense Shield system the bmd system the indigenous one now we have Radars which can track missiles coming from say up to 5000 kilometers this is a big achievement sir can you tell us what is the status of the bmd program and how capable Are We Now do we as and recently we had the S 400 missiles which can uh for the interim which can track up to say five 400 kilometers and take down Targets this bmd", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-42", "text": "five 400 kilometers and take down Targets this bmd sounds to be having more capabilities than that sir no I would say that country has developed radars uh varieties of Radars right from Battlefield Radars to long range radars as I said the country has developed all the components which are required indigenously which are very Advanced components so the complete capability in the country to develop Radars with very long range also have come up this definitely helps the country to track any object at far off distances detect it and track it and which helps in any defense system which is required by the country so this capability now has been established in the country that you can develop any type of a radar system which is including the advanced development system Advanced Technologies is a capability which naturally is for surveillance applications and detecting targets at far off distances and tracking that which is useful for the defense of the country okay let's let's move on to uh what you said recently when you said that a space traffic is going to", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-43", "text": "when you said that a space traffic is going to become soon it's going to be as bad as traffic in Bengaluru or Chennai or Delhi or something like that what is the system what is there an international protocol in place to manage the space traffic or should there be one which is more robust this is what I was telling in the Bangalore conference on these is that the activity in the space has gone up in a big way number of satellites being launched by each country is become numerous and look at our own launches and where we have of course the global requirements of various countries also we are launching from our own launch vehicle we have launched at one go more than 100 in one launch itself and things like that so if you look at these whole requirements the number of satellites and number of debris which actually the components parts and other things which also be become part of it is going to be enormous so the traffic in the particularly low earth orbit are going to become in a", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-44", "text": "particularly low earth orbit are going to become in a big way and so that needs to be managed thoroughly and it has to be one is debris removal programs and launch related the traffic traffic management internationally the space Community need to sit together and work out modalities and mechanisms for the future requirements where these both satellites and debris which are going to play a bin number in a big way and needs to be managed and they should be International Consortium to see that these debris are removed also and manage these spanned satellites also and how to bring down them and things like that without creating debris is one of the mechanisms International Space Community has to work on this traffic management that's what I have said it shouldn't fall into human habitation areas and cause damage or even in the oceans and cause marine life to most of these components and disintegrative they disintegrate and while entering into the atmosphere itself there are very few things which happen so I remember the childhood you know hearing about", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-45", "text": "so I remember the childhood you know hearing about and there was paranoia where Skylab Sky lab if I don't know what do you recall that time I remember it used to be so big that it's going to fall in India and yeah there was even one one person who named his newborn that day as Skylab sync if you remember that very rare occasions which happen and but most of the things actually it is integrate while entering into the atmosphere so these are all the things what I said that you should manage and that should not cause problem either in the space or also when they actually any one object falling down also should not create any habitation related issues on the ground is one thing actually as a space Community needs to manage that's what I said earlier uh sir I wanted to ask you about this uh the the engines you were talking about the kaveri engines but now we are looking at uh I guess this came up for discussion during your U.S visit also with the NSA uh", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-46", "text": "during your U.S visit also with the NSA uh engines for the g414 engines for the LCA mark one and the amka mark one is it uh now we are talking about complete transfer of Technology from that country now you think after this the once the tut comes in and we have manufactured it here in the country we would be in a position to produce our own engines for fighter aircraft and we won't be needing anybody else's help firstly uh India has taken a program for indigenously developing the engines here that's the kaveri engine and cover engine is developed and but it couldn't be used in the LCA as both the programs were evolving and so there has there is a gap between the two requirements and so country has developed definitely certain level of Technologies which is required and plca we went ahead with the GE engine and GE has been supplying this engines and we are looking for the other engine which as for the U.S visit is concerned we the team went for the", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-47", "text": "visit is concerned we the team went for the iset program uh to have cooperation in critical and emerging technologies that has been launched and there have been a delegation from India uh the government side and also Industries similarly there have been a delegation of team which has participated from the government a number of Industries there have been discussions how to go ahead how to move forward and things like that this is a very welcome development which has come in for working on critical and emerging Technologies between the both the countries of USA and India so I'm going to move into uh into the kovid war and the role played by scientists at that time uh just a small short explainer during the pandemic you were part of the drdo team and that made 11 makeshift covered hospitals capacity of 10 000 beds in parts of the country One hospital was built in a record 11 days the the arduo helped construct 900 medical oxygen plants 30 000 ventilators so for those of you who think that drdo is", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-48", "text": "so for those of you who think that drdo is only about missiles think again there's a lot more the possibilities of spin Technologies being used uh for you know for things like medical and pandemic fight it was phenomenal what the drdo achieved at that stage and what the scientific community did for the country could you tell us a little bit about what were the goals set for you and how you worked during that period as the pandemic erupted the government has formed a number of groups of secretaries who should work on each and every domain connected to this covet pandemic and drdo was put into two such committees and wherein each committee has its own task so which included the development of ventilators development of ppe's development of mass and looking at the sanitizers and various other requirements and oxygen requirement and all that so drdo by virtue of working to the Armed Forces on various things which also covers actually you also have protective masks protective ppes also is one of the tasks so using", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-49", "text": "ppes also is one of the tasks so using that the Test Facilities which are available and things like that so drdu has developed tweaked its own Technologies for developing the products which are required for the covet and so in that process help the country to come out with many masks many ppas and ensuring The Test Facilities coming out with various other Technologies which are required in various places to fight the kovid and particularly in the ventilators which actually a continuous reviews have been taken by the government none other than honorable prime minister for the faster development of this ventilator Dido then Health Ministry and the the Private Industry Bharat Electronics limited and working together in a very short span of time almost about 50 to 60 000 ventilators have been developed driven by this committee and similarly drdu has developed an onboard oxygen generation system which actually for the Tejas aircraft which has been used to for a ground-based a large oxygen generation system like 1000 liters per minute and 500 is per", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-50", "text": "like 1000 liters per minute and 500 is per minute this was again required in the second wave particularly for various hospitals across the country it's been funded by the government honorable prime minister himself has given the funding from the PM kids and taken reviews very regularly to develop these plans so there are 22 Industries who have been given this technology very fast and established these oxygen plants across the country a whole of government were along with the state governments have worked on this to see that they're all the infrastructure is developed across the all these districts across the country and then these auction plants are made by the various Industries transported installed commissioned and the monitoring system also has been established so lots of efforts have gone in this and as a whole of government approach and drdu has played an important role as per the directions of the government requirements and things like that such one of those things is building as hospitals were required which also have been built in along with all the", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-51", "text": "which also have been built in along with all the necessary facilities incorporating these ventilators then oxygen and oxygen supply system and all that they have also been established as you rightly said at various places so it's a pandemic scenario and everyone in the country is looking only towards fighting that pandemic scenario as you have scientific ability and particularly work in similar areas and including a 2dg medicine which has been developed by drd for other applications which also can be used here likewise many things so for the situation which has erupted like this so on the directions of the government drdo has come out and worked on these things for for our Armed Forces who are you know living in uh very trying uh areas conditions uh developing food products for them Soldier is an important element in any Warfare so as is in the frontier areas whether the mountainous region or low temperature region and many other things so he needs to have life support systems for the soldier so you need to develop those Technologies for", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-52", "text": "soldier so you need to develop those Technologies for him let's say cold weather clothing which is required for the weather there or the place where he lives and various Necessities what he has got similarly having food which he can carry in a low volume but gives you very high energy and things like that is one thing these are all like pilot suits submarines whatever they require suits and so varieties of these requirements which are required for the soldier needs to be developed that did works on those Technologies for the soldier and try to support the soldier with a better equipped systems which makes his life simpler and very effective in those Frontier areas in yeah Dr Reddy I began by saying about how children in in you know many of us who would when we were children we want to become a scientist want to become a marine biologist and things like that but then you take up a job like you know like I became a journalist similarly somebody joins a bank and then slowly", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-53", "text": "similarly somebody joins a bank and then slowly you'd stop thinking and about those dreams you stop you start filtering out all that information which you were reading as a child you start filtering all that out because it's a dream that didn't get fulfilled whereas you stayed on to become a scientist now tell us at any point of time did you feel uh I don't want to do this I want to do something else how do you stay on course to be you know wanting to be a scientist and staying on the course firstly as I was finishing engineering many of our classmates and others were going abroad we had a very clear determination that we should stay back here in the country in fact my mother and family were also supporting the way I have also built up coming up that we should stay back here in the country and also wanted to be here in the research organization so I've actually tried to join drdu ISRO and atomic energy and drdu's job has come as a first to me", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-54", "text": "drdu's job has come as a first to me and so join the moment you are giant in drdo it is joined in that wave flow of development of missiles working under Dr Kalam in 1980s which you are trying to develop the first missiles of the country and it is a an atmosphere an environment where there is always enthusiastic environment and people are trying to work with tremendous dedication you have entered into that flow of that particular activity and there was never an opportunity or whatever they don't need to look back that enthusiasm continued the various leaderships the various aspects various programs which are coming and have encouraged us to develop further and further and keeping up the enthusiasm like if you look at the type of enthusiasm what we had in development of the Asad program which actually a Direction coming directly from and the Prime Minister and doing that you're trying to make the world know that country has such great Technologies people have worked two years day and night and developed those", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-55", "text": "have worked two years day and night and developed those programs so there have been an enthusiasm of programs after programs Technologies of Technologies now it is indigenous systems indigenous technology issues should make systems make for the world and try to make first of its kind system so this sort of a evolving enthusiasm persisted in the whole scientific community in the country trying to develop the systems so fast and trying to make this country is not dependent on anything from outside and country has to develop ourselves and country has to become a leader in these Technologies and try to export is one evolving enthusiasm which has been coming up and you I see that there are sea change in the anxious mind today and if you look get to the number of startups which have come up in the country which nobody thought and India is one of the very few countries so maybe first four or five countries we are having such a fantastic ecosystem of the startups and if you look at the people who are from coming from our its earlier", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-56", "text": "the people who are from coming from our its earlier about 10 years back majority of them were going abroad now majority of those IIT students are staying back here in the country and they're all working towards Innovations and development and trying to come out with new new technologies new new products this is one thing which is inspiring and I I feel that the youngsters the way the number of startups have come the way they are joining these organizations within the country or industry and the number of research Associates the number of phds which are coming in the country is a changing environment where youngsters are getting more and more towards Technologies more and more coming out with Innovations um I think we all should be very proud the way the country has changed now the mindset of the angstos is getting more and more driven towards these Technologies and Indians in indigenous Technologies I am sure this wave what is now adopted will make a sea change and make the India as one of the I think leaders in", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-57", "text": "the India as one of the I think leaders in the world when you were recently in Dallas you had this experience that people want to come back a lot of people are trying to come back and you look at our iits now most of those professors are young professors who are post docs who have come back from the world and Vary from various academic institutes and things like that and they're all trying to see that what we can do in India how we can do and looking for opportunities and all that and we have as actually we have lots of youngsters in this country that's the strength of this country and if you look at Engineers alone we are producing about 1.3 Millions a year and so lot of opportunities and India's killed Manpower will be a dominant Manpower in the whole world's skilled Manpower this is one thing which is so this is the one gangsters the education system the new education policy and opportunities number of iits which have come and the number of Institutions which", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-58", "text": "which have come and the number of Institutions which have come the number of uh incubation centers which have come to support these things and various corridors which have been created the infrastructure The Test Facilities which are there coming up to support the various mechanisms which are come to support the these youngsters to come out with Innovations and r d financial support this is uh changing the system very fast to evolve as a a brighter and much technological Advanced ignition so any message that you would have to young parents who are wondering what kind of advice to give their children in whether they should get into pure Sciences or not because is there is there scope like you saying there's a lot of scope today but what about those parents whose children are just about six to eight years or ten years who have to make that uh that choice right now to get into pure Sciences or not and and students who are taking stem courses what about them should they think about uh India's r d and Science and Technology streams", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-59", "text": "about uh India's r d and Science and Technology streams as something which is robust and fulfilling as far as uh you know a career opportunities are concerned firstly uh how much an engineering is imported basic Sciences social sciences are also equally important unless the fundamental Sciences subjects you are strong Technologies cannot be developed so there needs to be a lot of importance given to the Sciences in fact that's why the icers have been established in instead of Science Education research more into the sciences and related research which a trust has been given So based on the aptitude of the child whether he is a Sciences or social sciences or engineering related or medical related research we need to encourage looking at the it's only that we have to see that there is a focus there is a Target and then the youngster is motivated towards the target with sincerity and hard work this is what the parent has to ensure but not imposing him on him too much and what you want to do on all that so as", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-60", "text": "what you want to do on all that so as you say that today lots of opportunities each and every area available basic Sciences lot of opportunities where you get into research you get into teaching or you're learning universities or joining other research organizations is one possibility or you are joining into the other Technologies related area lot of operation But whichever the youngster has and that we should look it into that particular aptitude encourage him make him focus in that direction of course not definitely looking 24 hours only study studies and things that you also should be encouraged into other activities you should be able to play you should be able to participate in sports or other Arts related activities children also need to have all these activities with a primary focus and today our education system also the way it's evolving our educational institutions rankings globally are improving day by day so our education institutions standards are also going up in a big way this also helps the youngsters to come up with a very high standards", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-61", "text": "youngsters to come up with a very high standards in their education and get motivated and then later opportunities whether to get into the research or get into Technologies or getting into startups or Innovations is one more thing which has come up in a big way today and you also can see a change that they have been Focus was more on to the I.T earlier who were coming from the particular engineering institutions earlier now that has changed now yes they're all working in youngsters are working on Material Science today materials this one see change which has happened which is a very good thing which is evolving and this actually makes for an all-round development in the country and that is what we are seeing and that is what I like to say that of focus yourself lay the targets work towards the Target and when you are laying as you are growing lay your vision as a very at a very high level and that is what Dr Kalam used to say also that think big and work towards it and then only", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "4ce82ea3e612-62", "text": "that think big and work towards it and then only you can achieve great things so this is what our youngster should be thinking and that's what the parents should be directing them well thank you so much for giving us your time and wishing you all the best in the future thank you very much thank you thank you thank you very much for watching or listening into this podcast please like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have heard this or seen this namaste [Music]", "source": "PzZR18CHo9I"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-0", "text": "my father was a bureaucrat had become a secretary in 1980 when Indira Gandhi was re-elected he was the first secretary that she removed I had no active desire to to join politics at all I mean to me as I said it came as a complete surprise that the Prime Minister could even consider me people who claim to be internationally suddenly become supernationalist beware beware of such people now I ask people if we were being accommodative who sent the Indian army to the lse foreign exception and it is an exception and please notice I said China c-h-i-n-a there is a phrase War by other means there is also think of it this is politics by another means you think the timing timing is accidental I mean let me tell you one thing I don't know if you election season has started in India and Delhi or not but for sure it has started in London and New York politics of India doesn't stop at its bodice sometimes politics of India doesn't even originate in its borders", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-1", "text": "of India doesn't even originate in its borders it comes from outside why suddenly uh you know there's a surge of reports and you know attention and and Views I mean where some of these things not happening only you have to make a documentary many things happened in Delhi in 1984. why didn't we see a documentary on that Namaste welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is India's external affairs minister Dr s jaishankar an illustrious career of 38 years as Diplomat Dr Jay Shankar was India's Ambassador in China the Czech Republic USA Singapore and then finally foreign secretary he was picked up by Prime Minister Modi to be part of his cabinet in 2019 as external affairs minister the articulate Dr Jay Shankar is my guest today Dr Jai Shankar thank you so much for coming to the podcast you know every podcast that I've done uh the comment section is filled with Vinnie getting Dr Jay Shankar when you're getting Dr", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-2", "text": "getting Dr Jay Shankar when you're getting Dr Jai Shankar so today let me come and think okay I don't believe one word with that so now I'm so glad and my team is thrilled that you're here with us today and it's a pleasure to be here thank you so I am going to get into the macro issues of policy matters and and you know India's neighborhood and all in the second half of the podcast the first half is basically a curation of all that I've been seeing on the comment section where people said please ask Dr Jai Shankar this so um the question which most people had was that how did the transition take place from you know being a bureaucrat a career Diplomat to becoming a politician joining Mr modi's cabinet how did you make that transition what tools did you employ well uh I didn't make the transition it happened I mean uh it happened because as you know I come from a bureaucratic family we don't have anybody remotely", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-3", "text": "family we don't have anybody remotely in the family who's entered politics in any party at any time uh it had not crossed my mind I don't think it had crossed the mind of anybody else in my circle and then uh uh lo and behold what happened in May of 2019 happened now uh once I entered I must say in all honesty I I myself was very unsure I mean I had watched politicians all my life you know one of the things you get to do in the Foreign Service by the way is you actually perhaps much more than other services you see politicians up close because you see them abroad your you know you're kind of working with them closely you're counseling them so so it's one thing to watch uh but uh to actually join politics to uh to to become a Cabinet member to stand for rajas because you know when I was selected I was not even a member of Parliament so each of this kind of happened one by one I slid", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-4", "text": "this kind of happened one by one I slid into it sometimes without knowing it you learned by watching others that's something you know we say sometimes you go to to any foreign environment you kind of you you pick up by so for me this wasn't a foreign environment but it was a different environment so you know you looked at others more senior people more experienced people in the cabinet in the party in other parties I mean I even today you just say watch me in Parliament I do follow a lot I I look very carefully at what people are doing both in my own party and other parties I think there's a lot to learn from everybody so you get into it step by step sometimes you surprise yourself there is a there is a learning curve I I'd be honest with you out there there are times when you are a bit uh hesitant or a bit even nervous but then you know you do it once you do it twice you slowly grow over it so uh you know", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-5", "text": "you slowly grow over it so uh you know to to stand up there to reason with people to make a speech even sometimes you know because in bureaucracy until really uh uh the Prime Minister that is 2014 prime minister modi's Comet mostly people who are used to speaking in English so so there was a language but there was a subject but there was a environment but there's a different culture also you know as your skills as a diplomat uh it's I guess it would have equipped you to win friends over easily isn't it I don't think it's so much a question of winning friends uh uh I mean yes the the it does help when you're a diplomat you you in a sense are almost trained I would say uh to to to get along to to um you know get the most out of situations some of it is also different people are made different different ways you know uh uh Avenue would say I very rarely get into anything personal with people even when I'm provoked at", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-6", "text": "anything personal with people even when I'm provoked at times I I think people are just made made different ways but I would say this I mean Islam it's now it will be four years this summer uh it's been a very very interesting four years I'm happy to talk with you later later on about it but when I when I look at these four years for me actually it's been four years of very intense learning you know uh going to a state which uh I had really very little knowledge of it because three times Gujarat you know uh then having a particular area as you know as an MP you work on on your work in on a village or in a in a particular constituency so all of these were learnings and I find it very interesting I find every day is a new day I'll I'm as you can see quite enthusiastic about it yeah you know when uh Mr Modi picked uh you to be part of his cabinet and such an important portfolio everybody thought that you know you'd be", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-7", "text": "important portfolio everybody thought that you know you'd be like a technocrat or somebody like you know you bring domain expertise and you will be you'll kind of restrict your karma into that region but then once saw you know you evolved you became like a like any BJP karyakarta like any BJP worker you're you're part of the party you take the party line you go to all states not just Gujarat you're going to Karnataka you go to Tamil Nadu I've seen you going everywhere and uh speaking about the party it's become part of your uh the political part has also become part of your making now well uh um you know for me it's interesting that's how it seems to you but look uh one uh this comment this cabinet is very much a team cabinet okay so you don't do your own thing out here you know you may have a background you may come from a stream but this very idea that you know you will do your domain as you say be a technocrat", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-8", "text": "will do your domain as you say be a technocrat I don't think it gels with what is this cabinet secondly uh when I was selected as a as a minister I was not a member of parliament I was not a member of a political party either I had the choice of whether I would join a political party or not there was no compulsion on it nobody brought up that subject it was something which which was left to me I joined because one you know when you are joining a team you join it wholeheartedly that is where you give your best performance and where you get the best support and secondly I I really reflected on on you know what is what is the meaning of of actually joining a political party it's not a decision I took lightly and as someone who's studied and analyzed politics all their life it was something for me of a great importance so I joined because I genuinely believed today that this is a party which captures the sentiments and interests and aspirations of India the", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-9", "text": "sentiments and interests and aspirations of India the best and I get into other issues because again one of the differences you know moving from bureaucracy from a department or a service into politics you learn so much more when you are a member of the cabinet you know your exposure every cabinet meeting you know there are let's say 10 items the you know it could be on agriculture could be an infrastructure but you you get you get a cabinet note you read the note you are interested you will you will study a little bit more so you actually your your interest product and if your interest broadened when you go out there and speak to people it'll show up is there any difference in how uh Dr Jai Shankar the Diplomat thought and operated and how Dr Jai Shankar the external affairs minister politician BJP worker thinks and operates you know ah say in a way it's like different lives you know uh now you you've got to understand the challenge that it was for me", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-10", "text": "got to understand the challenge that it was for me personally because uh I am from a bureaucratic family you know my uh my father was a bureaucrat I've held a brother who's a bureaucrat my grandfather was a brokerage and not aunts but uncles uh uh who are who are there so our world if I can put it to you this way was very very bureaucratic our goals our dreams were bureaucratic what do you mean by that meaning you know if you had asked me uh if you and I had met which we had let us say in 20 2010 and say okay what's your dream I want to become foreign secretary that's a dream of any Foreign Service Officer in in our house it was also particularly uh you know it was something we put you never said that no you never asked me it was in 1993 I think that I first yeah you never asked me that bluntly but had you asked me that look yeah it's a reasonable dream to have", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-11", "text": "me that look yeah it's a reasonable dream to have I mean after all when you I mean if if you start a business so you do something you want to be the best in it right yeah okay I mean there's nothing wrong with that sure so fine I wanted to be the best Foreign Service Officer and to my mind the definition of the best that you could do was to end up as a foreign secretary now in our household there was also I would say I won't call it pressure but we were all very very conscious of the fact that my father was a bureaucrat had become a secretary but he was removed from his secretaryship you know uh he was he became at that time probably the youngest secretary in the janta government in 1979. for viewers and listeners who don't know uh Dr Jai Shankar's father was Dr K subramanyam who played a key role uh in formulating India's strategic Doctrine sorry for interrupting you so in 1980 he was secretary defense production in 1980 when", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-12", "text": "1980 he was secretary defense production in 1980 when Indira Gandhi was re-elected he was the first secretary that she removed and you know he was by I mean he was the most knowledgeable person everybody would say on defense he was also a very upright person maybe that caused a problem I don't know but the fact was as a person he saw his own bureaucratic career in bureaucracy actually kind of stall and after that you know he never became a secretary again he was superseded during the Rajiv Gandhi period for his uh you know somebody Junior to him became cabinet secretary so it was something he felt we rarely spoke about it but it was obviously something which which must have been inside him so he was very very proud when my elder brother became secretary uh and uh uh in my case uh he he passed away in 2011. uh at that time I had got what you would call grade one which is like a secretary rank Ambassador I didn't", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-13", "text": "which is like a secretary rank Ambassador I didn't become Secretary I became after he passed away but for us you know at that time the like the the goal you could say was okay we must become Secretary now as I said I had achieved that goal so in 2018 I was very happy to kind of walk away into the sunset I ended up finally walking not into the sunset but into Tata Suns and you know I was I think contributing my fair bit there I like them I think they liked me and then completely as a bolt out of blue the the political opportunity came now the the political opportunity uh for me was something I needed to think about you know because I was I was simply not prepared for it so I did reflect on it briefly due to the pressures of time at that time and when you say what is the difference between the the foreign secretary or the bureaucrat jashankar and this is yeah it's a different world it's a different responsibility it's a wider", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-14", "text": "world it's a different responsibility it's a wider vision and I you know I I put it to people like this I may have sat 40 years in the parliament Gallery it's not the same as being on the parliament floor uh I used to sometimes in fact you know uh swaraj was my Minister and as foreign secretary we used to talk a lot I mean every we had this practice we establanc I mean I'd go and see her every day but of course they would begin by her actually calling every morning and uh I always had the comfort as a secretary and if I I don't want this to sound immodest I was a confident secretary I believe I was a good secretary but I had the confidence that I have a minister and a prime minister above me who at the end of the day shoulder that political responsibility come May 2019 that political responsibility is mine it's a completely different feeling as a minister you have to look at it not departmentally you know there may be", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-15", "text": "look at it not departmentally you know there may be something uh let us say uh which is I'm giving you an example say wheat export to some country as of as a secretary I would say you know that country's relationship is very important but as a minister I'll have to say okay what's my own wheat prices looking like what are the domestic concerns out there who you know who else do we need to talk to every issue every major issue has some political angle sure which a minister will tend to see much faster than a bureaucrat however good that bureaucrat might be so it's kind of challenging yes absolutely it is okay so um I don't know whether you'll answer this question but I will ask you that who asked you was it the Prime Minister and uh two uh where what was the first time that you met Mr Modi and what did you what were your first takeaway of that meeting the uh who asked me meaning who asked me to John the government yes the", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-16", "text": "meaning who asked me to John the government yes the Prime Minister okay uh when did I meet Mr Modi first I met him in 2011 in November uh in Beijing um I never met him before oh he was chief minister he had come on a visit and that's how our acquaintance started uh I assume in the light of later events I must have made a good impression I can tell you he may frankly he made a very big impression on me because I you know by by 2011. I had already done uh uh I mean I had done what uh two Ambassador real postings already no this was my third third one yeah and I'd seen so Singapore and check check I started saying you know people come and go achievement I had never met someone better prepared better uh more serious uh and also more I found it very interesting you know I give you a and this is the person by the way we are meeting here for the first time so uh he we go through this business briefing you know what", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-17", "text": "he we go through this business briefing you know what he should say who is meeting Etc then he said that Maps a little bit of a surprise no chief minister had done that and of course he told me I mentioned it in one piece I've written saying look it's very important for me that I'm abroad I may be from a different party but I shouldn't say or do anything which is different you know at that too in a country like China so uh it should it's very you know I want you to brief me on on kishus and we were having our problems at that time even at that time there was a listing problem there was stable visas problem they were not dealing with a northern command they were you know all these are some Gujarati diamonds yes there was a bunch of Gujarati Surat traders who had also been dead and he brought that up as well the uh after I did you know who's done with him and we went for the meetings and then we were", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-18", "text": "and we went for the meetings and then we were riding in the same car so he said you know I have this habit he said my heart meeting about my debris things are not okay okay so I I remember this because you know for me there is a certain manner of working which she has you know his all the time like gauging sensing very very sensitive to to to this very keen that he should not make a mistake that he should convey things accurately to the policy that the nuances are captured this was my first experience of him after that I didn't see him till he became prime minister okay is it the same now before he travels after he travels when you travel is it the same kind of thing foreign policy matters you talk to each other where he asks questions you answer you ask questions he answers is that how it works it's no it is and it isn't I mean uh sort of intrinsically it is the same but it's now on a totally different scale", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-19", "text": "same but it's now on a totally different scale and leak sure so uh now what happens is usually you know we would strategize before you know we spend usually I'd say even not at the beginning of the year but even in the previous year we'd start thinking you know what should we be doing where are we going who should we engage that kind of strategy session ah when it comes to something specific you know uh uh it would it would uh it would be like he would we would go through the details of where we are going you know what are the objectives who are we meeting what are their objectives so there's a there's a kind of uh I would say strategizing and uh and uh game planning which goes uh well ahead and then it's repeatedly visited reviewed uh so uh so sometimes even in the midst of meetings you would see us you know one of us lean across uh and say something to him or him doing the same or if there's a break in a meeting you", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-20", "text": "same or if there's a break in a meeting you know we would have a quick confabulation I mean you could I mean Sensei and I films a lot of this you would often see you know there's a quick huddle yeah where you quickly saying something we are updating or he's sharing uh his you know um uh we can't hear though because thank God you can't help because you know that would kind of destroy our uh strategizing we should get somebody to see the lip syncing and see what's happening there but uh but uh dude he's very he's a very discussive person if you know what okay and he has views but he's very open to you know opinion agreement disagreement Improvement mitigation it's it's very it's very yeah how do I say you know yeah interactive lots of people say that he's he's a very ideas kind of a man in fact you know uh some of the questions were on YouTube with that and my team has made a a video which I'm going to show", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-21", "text": "has made a a video which I'm going to show it to you I'm part of the East I'm part of the South I'm part of the West I'm universal I'm India someone to say I'm doing this because it is for counter-terrorism you know you're not fooling anybody by saying this thing Mr Soros is a old Rich opinionated person if I could only stop at Old rich and opinionated I would put it away but his old Rich opinionated and dangerous you know somewhere Europe has to grow out of the mindset that Europe's problems are the world's problems but the world's problems are not Europe's problems our total purchases for the month would be less than what Europe does in an afternoon I don't think we're sitting on the fence just because I don't agree with you uh doesn't make me sitting on the fetch it means I'm sitting on my ground I'm entitled to have my own side I'm entitled to weigh my own interest make my own choices you're asking the wrong Minister", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-22", "text": "make my own choices you're asking the wrong Minister when you say how long will we do this because it is the Ministers of Pakistan who will tell you how long Pakistan intends to practice terrorists if you have snakes in your backyard you can't expect them to bite only your neighbors eventually they will bite the people who keep them in the backyard if I were to take Europe collectively which has been singularly silent on many things which were happening for example in Asia you could ask why would anybody in Asia trust Europe on anything at all you are asking me I would say yes 2014 was a watershed moment yes things have changed better after 2014 yes our foreign policy has become more dynamic more effective more prominent after 2014. Mr Modi is very famous and very demanding so how do you deal with that I'm so glad you chose that understated word demanding so uh yes I I think the prime minister is demanding I think is rightly demanding because it's time that India had a demanding", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-23", "text": "demanding because it's time that India had a demanding person as prime minister it stopped to work for a demanding boss but at the end of the day you actually if you feel that's the kind of person the country needs I think you're willing to do whatever you have to do with that two democracies will end it differently and if you can prove that concept here then I think is probably the best way to sell democracy one democracy will settle it and you know which one okay so that's right so this this is what we uh you know my team got this together and uh the same thing about being a demanding prime minister the one is heard about how you have 11 pm meetings and 11 30 midnight post midnight meetings happen with in this cabinet uh and it's it's like working especially during covert times when these crisis happened the Ukraine situation where Indian students had to be evacuated those are like very tense times right and it's it's he's on the job all the", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-24", "text": "and it's it's he's on the job all the time uh well look uh I don't want you to get it wrong it's not like you particularly want to meet or the meetings happen at 11 o'clock or late at night kind of thing I think it's a situation it's partly the prime minister's schedule but you mentioned for example uh the Ukraine uh conflict operation Ganga now what was happening at that time was that the Prime Minister was busy campaigning in up if you remember at that time now last year same time yep now 24th of February yeah a little bit later yeah okay now it could have been I don't know maybe some other prime minister would have said okay guys I'm busy with up now you go manage this uh but I think it bothered him it he felt he needed to to to get a good sense I mean lives were at stake so we would have situations where he would campaign the whole day come back to Delhi I mean you could see the sometimes you", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-25", "text": "to Delhi I mean you could see the sometimes you know how exhausted he was and then somewhere he would find that energy and the I don't know the adrenaline and uh we you know we would meet late because he's come back late from company sometimes the situation would would call for it I mean uh I I think I once mentioned this maybe in one of those same occasions you showed me right now where uh which was our Consulate in mazareshari being attacked and I remember it was I think it was past midnight and I I also have this habit of staying up late and I I like to clear my desk every day without fail and in fact he called up and normally you know some some other guy comes up and sort of says the PMR should talk to in this case it was him and so I think if there is something happens he he feels you know he feels deeply about it he sort of feels it's not like ask somebody to do something he wants to know", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-26", "text": "ask somebody to do something he wants to know that it's being done now mind you having said that I also say this as his working style that once an objective is achieved or a mission is set or whatever it is he then you get the space to then carry it out okay so say operation Ganga I mean he would want to know what we were doing he would sometimes give suggestions but it was not like he was wanting to you know get down he trusted you okay with the details and that's why I mean for me the the uh the sort of I would say the pleasure of working with him I mean what do you need from what does anybody need from a boss you need from a boss somebody who gives you a a goal with clarity who whatever their thoughts ideas Etc then if you are the experienced operational Prince person you know you leave them to to yeah figure out how it is done you take your feedback you might want to cause correct but he gives you a lot of the", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-27", "text": "cause correct but he gives you a lot of the space and which is why I think if you look at the last seven eight years of Indian foreign policy we are able to move I mean I I give you why operation ganga I'll give you operation Dost right now yeah okay no yes okay uh the earthquake happened I mean I think literally you know in a very very short time uh you know he wanted to know what are our thoughts I kind of sent in our thoughts I very quickly consulted uh you know my people in my own Ministry and literally within a few minutes we were told okay you got the goal now you know go to you know talk to ndrf or whatever 48 hours if I'm not mistaken that they were already there we were less less than less than 48. yeah you know um you were talking about delegation and about getting uh things in order quickly um we've seen videos of the cabinet committee on security CCS meetings you know it looks like this is the creme", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-28", "text": "you know it looks like this is the creme de La Creme of the cabinet everybody getting together very serious looking very tough and you you all look like you know what happens in these meetings uh you know we saw that URI balakode pulvama uh ganga operation ganga um we saw this with during covert times with how do these meetings things takes take place what happens does everybody import output what happens there no it would vary say if there's a larger meeting usually there would be some kind of briefer uh in any meeting because somebody has to put the proposition and then you know obviously then the the flow kind of gets opened up typically the Prime Minister comes in sort of uh later I would say I mean he allows people uh to to speak before he actually says anything that would be a a norm uh we may look very serious because usually when CCS meets it's a serious matter you know uh the the routine CCS meeting we have you know wow if there", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-29", "text": "routine CCS meeting we have you know wow if there is some uh something which some agreement or purchase or something needs to be cleared often you don't get the photo of it because you yeah you yourself would not be covering it so you would not most of the pictures you do have would be of occasions like URI or post Galvan uh you know where where the situation is serious and I think it's obviously reflected on our because there's no briefing after the CCS we never get to know what happened yes but you look uh I I think uh garments at the end of the day are supposed to focus on governance so so if you if you have I mean if there are decisions you made which need to be executed you're not going to come and tell the Press guys we just made this decision and that is how it is going to be executed okay so now uh let me come to you know when we were talking about how you do your briefings to the Prime Minister you", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-30", "text": "you do your briefings to the Prime Minister you do your briefings to the cabinet what happens when you're at with parliamentary committees there is the opposition also out there Parliament but the Parliamentary committees there are opposition members also right the Parliamentary committee on Foreign Affairs oh okay consultative consultative committee right so there are there are people from the opposition also in that so how do you how do you convince them about policy matters well I I you know uh I have only experience uh of my own committee because both as foreign secretary and as em have dealt with them uh the way I deal with them is we take a subject uh we tell them this is the subject normally we take something very topical and then we would have again a presenter often it would be the foreign secretaries it could be some other security normally not then I open it and encourage everybody to to have they say and then what would happen is in some cases the presenter May respond but I would as a", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-31", "text": "cases the presenter May respond but I would as a minister uh sort of uh respond to every one of the comments which are made by every one of the members so my intent of doing that is really one to underline to them that we take them seriously to not them seriously but their concerned seriously to it does help in in kind of carrying them along and sometimes in convincing them the politics is politics or sometimes whether they're convinced or not they will not admit it Rahul Gandhi didn't get convinced by you he in fact he said that I think you were he saw I don't know the exact words but I think he said that you did not know much about foreign policy matters you needed to learn a little more uh well let me let me put it to you more accurately this wasn't at a parliamentary committee uh I mean in parliamentary committees we have interacted but usually what happens in parliamentary committee I try to keep to myself so I will not", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-32", "text": "I try to keep to myself so I will not get into it with you either this I think was something he said at some kind of public meeting somewhere that you don't know much about I think he look I I cannot watch for the exact words either but uh I think it was probably in the context of China yeah he's not convinced about China either but you know I mean he thinks that you are opaque about it uh uh I don't know whether it's opaque or whether you know there was a sort of a level of knowledge understanding I mean all I can say in my defenses I have been the longest serving Ambassador in China I have been dealing with a lot of these border issues for a very very long time I uh I would say uh let me put it to you this way I'm not suggesting I'm the necessarily the most knowledgeable person but I would have a fairly good self opinion of my understanding of what is up there okay but you know I'm I mean if he", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-33", "text": "there okay but you know I'm I mean if he has Superior knowledge wisdom I'm always as I said for me life is a learning process Superior knowledge wisdom on China if he has so I'm always willing to listen okay and learn from Mr Rahul Gandhi on China you think that that's a possibility I have never closed my mind to anything however improbabilities okay all right um four years as foreign minister of India and Ninth year of the Modi foreign policy what is the report card like I think it's a it's a very solid report card uh number one it's a if you look today at a global standing which is a very intangible measure of success but it's a very visible measure of success you know you you ask yourself uh 2020 3 you know when a prime minister of India in this case Narendra Modi you know convenes a meeting walks up on a global stage or a conference how do people react what compare it with even with him five years ago perhaps with his predecessors many", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-34", "text": "him five years ago perhaps with his predecessors many of them I would say today our Global standing is clearly very much higher is quite good quite strong number two uh strategically I think there is today much greater Clarity in our own thinking and in our own operations and I say that as an implementer of foreign policy that you know people know there's a neighborhood First Neighborhood first means build your connectivity and your contacts and this is your first priority then they know there's an extended neighborhood to the West towards the gulf to the east asean to the South Sagar Central Asia the set of policies which do that then they know there's a policy of engaging the major Powers they know there's a Africa Focus so there is today a lot of strategic clarity about our strategy and that's necessary if you are serious about operationalizing it third in terms of operationalizing it you know we we do today projects uh in in almost 80 countries in the world it's you know most Indians don't realize how much we", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-35", "text": "you know most Indians don't realize how much we do abroad uh today and those are often the test of our credibility and there's been a huge Improvement there that projects which would often lie for years uh you know unfinished struggling for something the the efficiency of that has improved on big Global issues today uh I think the expectation is that India would have a say they would have a voice they would have a opinion and they would if necessary you know have more than that and this could be climate change it could be counterterrorism could be black money I mean you look at the at the big it could be something like Maritime security uh even today trade investment that technology then I would also you know point to the fact that we have been able to uh to very clearly demonstrate to the world that we are a exceptional International power meaning we are willing to do things for others perhaps more than most other countries are at this point of time one is this sort of first responder record we have built up", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-36", "text": "this sort of first responder record we have built up turkey is the latest that if something happens if it is reasonable if it is within the realm of possibility you know India is there early in the operation Operation you know I I can give you so many yes a whole whole list list of these you know uh Rahat in Yemen sankat mochan and Sudan those are one country or one region yeah or one situation if you ask me a single thing we have done uh in the last 10 years which has shaped uh Global views about us I think it is vaccine by three yeah that uh the the you know it's almost uh I would say not it it's almost emotional to hear what people come and tell you uh about that and yet there was criticism at that time if you remember Dr Jai Shankar because people said you haven't managed to uh we haven't managed to vaccinate all of our population and here we were sending vaccines abroad there was a lot of criticism then I", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-37", "text": "abroad there was a lot of criticism then I I don't know if there was a lot because I think domestically at least there was I I think there was loud criticism from the expected quarters I don't I would not consider it lot of criticism ah you know it's very interesting in this country you would have people who when you do things say why are you doing it when you're not doing it say why are you not doing it if there's consistency the consistency is an opposition to anything you do okay the the fact is I think most people in this country understood that you know it's the right thing to do and let me tell you uh one thing when Delta came Delta wave came because it wasn't only the vaccines you know before that there was a hydroxychloroquine there was a paracetamol etcetera think how many countries did their bid to help us and some of them you know like say President Biden are the Americans they said very clearly saying that look India helped us and we", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-38", "text": "clearly saying that look India helped us and we are going to help India so uh you know this very uh sort of short-sighted view and sometimes as I said you know the people who claim to be internationally suddenly become super nationalist you know beware beware of such people because I am going to come to that whether we are hypersensitive as a country uh you know to criticism because uh you saw that little video that I played uh in which uh George soro's statement on Democracy which you took on you took on and you you said that you know you said he was old Rich opinionated and I know what I said right now this also the the op-eds which come in foreign media which say that um that they blame India for now for chronic capitalism and say Mr modi's images got hurt the BJP on the other the hand says that there's a there's a conspiracy against India Rising India and uh you know Mr modi's muscular policies and then it would be nicer to", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-39", "text": "muscular policies and then it would be nicer to have a Meek and submissive India look uh Smith uh I have dealt with the world for a long time uh I have dealt with the media for I even had a media job at one point of time okay I want you to step back don't think incident by incident they say this you know something happened you said this they said this the media said I don't want you to do that because it's you're really losing the woods for the trees I want you to think step back and think the last nine ten years okay what you have from different quarters is you know an episode there a decision here an adjective added here you know a photograph done there it's like drip drip drip drip like water on stone they the whole idea is to shape your image you know your Collective image shape it in a way in which you are made to look extremist you're made to look unreasonable you are made to look as though you know you are not part", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-40", "text": "to look as though you know you are not part of this what is otherwise a great good uh Progressive world okay now it happens in different ways you know every time we make a major decision you talk about us being hypersensitive I would put it to look at the hypersensitivity of the of the media you know look how people jumped up and down when article 370 was was uh you know decided upon now or you know even even this example that you know millions of people will lose their citizenship of it and then see sometimes the dishonesty of the CAA one that you see the dishonesty of it you know you've had reports and you know I'm look I'm not personalizing it you know I've got nothing against individual a or b or newspaper A or B but each one of them has contributed their bit okay you actually have people who suggest problems in Assam or because of Narendra Modi now you and I know I mean come on this is Indira Gandhi's time okay but that is", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-41", "text": "is Indira Gandhi's time okay but that is whitewashed you have people who say oh the serious problem is judiciary because the there's a next chief justice who's now entered Parliament is it for the first time no there was earlier so you know our institutions come under attack you know I mean as I tell people say what you will for me you know the to me the the which one of us doubts our Election Commission which one of us goes to vote and thinks the the result is not what what is true and you know uh capturing the the Integrity of the processor and yet what will happen you know that comes Under Pressure so there is an attempt and it's it's a very very clever uh attempt and it takes different forms you know we had a very very tough time during coverage so you are you saying it's all coordinated I don't know I think there is a mindset I think the mindset I would say there's an ideology uh the I'll give you the example of", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-42", "text": "ideology uh the I'll give you the example of covet okay I grant you we went through a horrible time in covet I mean many of us lost people in our families friends acquaintances look at the coverage of our covet did people not die in other countries did we see that coverage out there did you see that kind of photograph from other countries I mean you heard of bodies piled up in parking lots in other countries yeah so I'm putting it to you this way look I do think that one of the challenges today is you have due to in my view and you know you may or may not agree with it over 70 75 years what has happened is actually democracy has worked in this country and the proof of democracy working in this country is cities talk you know if you look where is your leadership coming from they are no longer the people necessarily from big cities and English speaking schools okay there are people of a different background and it's again I'm not talking individual here I'm", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-43", "text": "it's again I'm not talking individual here I'm talking about generalized phenomena you look at the mindset of the society this society today has become much more assured about what it believes in there was a time when actually you kind of kept that as though you know uh you're not supposed to talk about your cultural beliefs uh in front of other people so you actually have a huge change experience that when you were in jnu not talk about Indian culture you know that was in the 80s 70s 70s in the 70s look you're diffident about your own culture I mean I I saw this comment in which you said one of the greatest diplomats that India has was Lord Krishna and there was Lord Hanuman you mentioned him also and uh it's it's not something that is spoken about in diplomatic circles and even in the media who the beat journalists would never think of diplomats and not even you and you know when when you think about it your your background your journalism", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-44", "text": "when you think about it your your background your journalism I'm sorry your education well yes and no because you know it's a socialist I also had a lot of home education okay say genuine was different I was I was 18 when I went to jnu okay and Janu was very very firmly leftist at that time and I think uh everything you know at 18 what you intuitively believe is either formed by your friends and acquaintances or what is reflective of your home ah and definitely in our home my father who was a very strong influence on us was very distrustful of ideologies and people who he believed were not uh who did not have the loyalties in our own country such as well you look you know you're we are not talk remember he had his own views about what was happening in the 40s and 50s at that time you know who was for the national movement uh you know where did different people you know how how did they switch remember at that time China there was a there", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-45", "text": "switch remember at that time China there was a there was a big China issue I mean we are oh okay you're talking the war and things no no no yeah so I he he particularly I think had he was very very distrustful of the left you know uh uh so of the Communists left and uh I think some of it so in a sense we grew up a very unspokenly but very strongly as very patriotic children you might say you know we kind of went to uh this military institutions I went to Air Force school to King George's Bangalore military school my my siblings went to some of them went to Naval school to Sardar Patel vidyalayaso I think that was the kind of mindset I took into genu so in fact in Janu which was a dominantly leftist Outlook where the teachers the students the administration everybody was very leftist my lot of people my cohort were the first set of people who actually politically took on the left okay and and actually we had a", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-46", "text": "on the left okay and and actually we had a meeting we had an election even where they then uh prakash karat was the was the SFI candidate here he won one election he lost one election so I you know I I where did you stand in that oh I was very clearly with what was called the free thinkers free thinkers yeah free thinkers was a assortment because other than the left there was no other political and there was no to cry to cry in those days no no that see the all that came very much very much later so I would say that sense of uh uh nationalism connection to Country this was kind of instilled in us on the cultural question it was very interesting you know when I did my book I have a chapter on the Mahabharata in the book and uh one of the Delhi journalists asked me this question said you know I find that very surprising I said yeah partly because maybe you don't know me that well but we learned all of us I'm talking about", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-47", "text": "but we learned all of us I'm talking about siblings as well we read Mahabharata very early in fact very often it was the subject of discussion in our house of you know and we approached a lot of it was approached as strategy as you know uh in a in a sense what our own epics and by the way we were very uh I would say Cosmopolitan household it wasn't you know um the you know the same father also gave us Iliad and odyssey and other things as well okay so you had Homer on one side and you had the Mahabharata and a lot of things in between okay I'm sure you had plated Plato and Aristotle too I'm a political science student yes I I actually studied those yes yeah yes so uh I'm going to come to this whole thing about the sensitivity issue do you feel that you know because many say that ban this and ban that uh do you believe that that is a solution to it Banning a documentary here Banning a book", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-48", "text": "to it Banning a documentary here Banning a book there uh asking a channel not to broadcast in India no no look uh I I I don't think that you're asking the right question I would I would ask you rather ask you a counter question what is it we are debating we are not debating just a documentary or a speech that somebody gave in a European city or a you know a new a newspaper uh edit somewhere we are debating actually politics which is being conducted ostensibly as media as so you know you there is a phrase War by other means there is also think of it this is politics by another means you'll do a hatchet job then you want you want to do a hatchet job and say well you know this is just another Quest For Truth which we decided after 20 hours to put out at this time so so I mean come on you think that I mean timing is accidental I mean let me tell you one thing I don't know if you election season has started in", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-49", "text": "I don't know if you election season has started in India and Delhi or not but for sure it has started in London and New York hmm okay so this is what it is that being said that the rise of Mr Modi and consequently the rise of India these two things are happening at the same time which is not acceptable to people in these Western capitals that you're talking and certain Indian quarters too do you agree with that point of view I don't I mean do you doubt it I'm asking you no I look look who welcome cheerleaders no let me let me answer answer your question you know what is happening is just like I told you this drip drip drip how do you shape a very extremist image of India of the government of the BJP of the Prime Minister I mean this has been going on for a decade okay let's let's not uh have uh Illusions about it how some of this has a different variant which is you will say something there's an echo chamber", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-50", "text": "is you will say something there's an echo chamber you'll it'll be picked up outside then you'll say aha see they are saying it outside that must be true then you will say it inside so there's a ding dong uh going on see look this is a globalized world people take that politics abroad politics of India doesn't stop at its borders sometimes politics of India doesn't even originate in its bodies it comes from outside you know ideas come from outside agendas come from outside otherwise please tell me please tell me why suddenly uh you know there's a surge of reports and you know attention and and Views I mean where some of these things not happening earlier I mean I I gave you the example of Assam yeah your people speak about okay you have to make a documentary many things happened in Delhi in 1984. why didn't we see a documentary on that if if that was your concern that your son you know you felt suddenly one day okay I'm very humanistic and I must", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-51", "text": "one day okay I'm very humanistic and I must get Justice for people uh who have been done wrong so so look don't don't kid yourself this is politics at play this is at politics at play by people who do not have the courage to come into the political field they want to have that Teflon cover saying that you know I'm an NGO I'm a media organization Etc but they are playing politics how does BJP react to this is it or your government for that matter is it react you know is it a reactory reactionary measure that you have to take how do you counter look I I think we will put our point of view across and as should be rightfully done in a democracy eventually the public will give its verdict which is electorate that's why it's only by the ballot that these things if he gets re-elected that means that they have been proven wrong is that it is that what you're saying look I I would say yes among other things because in a democracy uh", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-52", "text": "say yes among other things because in a democracy uh I mean don't you trust The Ballot Box and the people's verdict to be the final opinion I do I know there are some people who believe that their view supersedes elections so in fact by the way I mean even that look look at this term I like you you win election great democracy I don't like you you win election what are you electoral autocracy yeah I heard that but what a great term right that's a result for people you don't like who win elections politics my dear so if there's so much money being going to be pumped in how does how does India react how does India even deal with it when you don't know that there's one enemy or this is amorphous entity look I I would say it I think there there should be and there is a battle for narratives which goes on uh there will be narratives designed to damage us we have to put out narratives designed to expose people or design to", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-53", "text": "narratives designed to expose people or design to put our Viewpoint across I think we will my my own sense is that most people will through their I mean you know this is a pretty informed age you know that that Iraq and people had only one or two sources and they control thinking I think that's gone by a long time ago let me come to the uh foreign policy issues which I said we'll do in the second half of it you know um increasingly domestic issues and the foreign policy have become interlinked uh foreign policy matters used to be something which domain specific people handle it and foreign beat journalists demystified it for you but it's no longer the case and one saw it happening one during covet when everything everybody wanted to know why are we giving it to this country why not to that country how much are we giving do we have enough then there was the CAA there was the farmer's protest there was nupur there was so much that was happening uh how do", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-54", "text": "was so much that was happening uh how do you deal with this it's like literally you know the you know that game that children pay where you go on beating things it was like that in that that two-year period was really tough uh the uh now I was smiling at the imagery you you invoked now look I the in a globalized data what happens is that everything from the world comes to India everything from India goes out in many ways it's a good thing it has its own challenges it has its own vulnerabilities so uh so how does it impact us that's really your question what it does is uh I have to often as part of my narrative setting explain uh thanks to foreign audiences so I I give you an example take take this whole scare mongering that millions of people are going to lose citizenship now you tell people saying that look this was set one year has passed two years or past three years where are these people you know you this after all we're supposed", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-55", "text": "people you know you this after all we're supposed to have a cataclysm in 2020 so ah and when you even citizenship when you start reasoning with people ask them saying okay tell me do you not have a criteria of citizenship do you do you not use language or some people use religion people use language they use religion uh they use education some of them even use income some use ethnicity so when you tell people saying look I've reflect on your citizenship practice I mean what do you do so often what happens is ah you know and and see that's why the Battle of narratives is very powerful you read the bulk of international papers especially the anglosphere papers but all of them how many of them tell you 370 was a temporary profession I challenge you to show me one they don't is written there in bold letters in capital letters in the Constitution but then that's because India itself didn't put across that point of view right listen I can put across something if you have shut", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-56", "text": "I can put across something if you have shut your ears to it no amount of hammering away at it it's not see when when Kashmir was being discussed Pakistan used to keep saying plebiscite plebiscite plebiscite till till the 90s that word plebiscite kept hammering it was you know that it is a disputed issue it till India's narrative started being heard unless you allowed and you impose your narrative you don't get heard in the world no I I completely agree with you Smitha so I I try not to be loud I try to get my narrative across in a elegant and effective way maybe a Time sharper than people may want but I I accept your point that we need to get our narrative across and that is exactly what we are trying to do in foreign policy but I also put it to you sometimes that I feel that I'm talking to an audience which is deliberately deaf that they do not want to hear sometimes they do not want", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-57", "text": "do not want to hear sometimes they do not want to absorb sometimes that and and there is a very strong bias I mean let's let's be frank about it you know newspapers there are newspapers I don't want to go into names who will publish something absolutely ridiculous on one side and you say Okay I want to counter it they say no no hang on a moment I'm busy doing a fact check on what you are saying so we saw this bias very very clearly over the last four years I think it in fact I expected to if anything grew as the election comes closer because I I don't think uh you know this is without a political political political Direction and purpose it's a domestic politics playing a part domestic politics you know it could be domestic politics it could be covet it could be you know it could be different business playing its part also it could it could be look I'm not a conspiracy theorist okay I'm what I'm explaining to you is actually politics at", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-58", "text": "what I'm explaining to you is actually politics at work okay it doesn't have to be conspiracy at work even there are about why why is it why is it difficult to uh to understand that there are ideologies and political forces outside India very similar to those in India and the two are working hand in club I mean I'm putting a perfectly Common Sense proposition before you and part of the problem is when political forces in India are not doing so well uh electorally they tend to kind of summon up this this support system if you would or the echo chamber or call it what you want they are the congress party is saying that uh that in that the Indian government is the Modi government is defensive reactive when it comes to China that neither Mr Modi nor you even mention China you just say Eastern neighbor hello please then then they must have some problem understanding words beginning with the c please look at everything I've said hmm that's not true and what about this thing that they say that", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-59", "text": "true and what about this thing that they say that uh almost 1000 square kilometers has gone and the foreign minister is not facing facts not telling us this truth in Parliament no look uh I I think they are deliberately misrepresenting uh the situation I give you two very specific examples of that you remember that ho Hala which happened on a bridge you know they were building a bridge in pangong so yeah when did that area actually come under Chinese control yeah I've seen that you said that it is long back I'll tell you when it came the Chinese first came there 1958 and Chinese captured it in October 1962. now you're going to blame Modi government in 2023 for constructing a bridge with the Chinese capture 1962. and you don't have the honesty to say that is where it happened or let me give you another example you know uh these border villages now there were border Villages which have come up in areas which the Chinese actually you know long Jew there was a", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-60", "text": "the Chinese actually you know long Jew there was a clash and uh it's not a secret you know at that time it was hotly debated in India in the parliament in the media so what happens you do the smoke and mirrors you know say oh there's something happening here it's almost like 1962 never happened it was like you know we should be I I let me give you a very very uh a different example everybody say you know we should be having our troops up there we should be building border infrastructure hello why didn't you build that border infrastructure I just look at the budget or the Border infrastructure during the Modi period the budget has gone up five times you know till till 2014 roughly it was three thousand four thousand crores was was the budget today it is 14 000 crores if you look at the uh the roads which are built you look at the bridges that are built they have doubled or tripled you look at the tunnels which are taking place", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-61", "text": "you look at the tunnels which are taking place this comment is serious about border infrastructure whereas we know the underlying thinking earlier was you know let's leave it like that then the Chinese can't come inside which meant you have no intention of contesting them when they came so you know I find it very thick that uh you know look I don't think personally I would get into a Blame Game you know what happened in 62 happened but if you now want to whitewash all that and say everything happened only in 2020. I you know I have to call you out no so you're fortifying the border the boundary uh India China so does that make China now the biggest threat to India are we in a state of of a quasi-war-like situation conflict-like situation where are we no no I I first of all I'm not using the word we fortifying it I think we are legitimately building a border infrastructure because they have built the robotic infrastructure in my view we should have", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-62", "text": "the robotic infrastructure in my view we should have done it 25 years ago again we are reactive that means no no not at all look they are the bigger economy I mean what am I going to do as a smaller economy I'm going to sort of go pick a fight with a bigger economy or another question of reactive question having common sense so secondly please bear in mind one thing we had an agreement that you're not supposed to bring military to the uh uh to the to the Border in large numbers so by that logic of yours I should be the first to break the agreement why not why should I because it doesn't make look please understand why are we always the ones not breaking in agreement and it's always the other side breaking the agreement I I think you need you need to sort of take a very okay no no no no no considered view of this okay we don't re why do we reach agreements we reach agreements because it is in our interest to stabilize a", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-63", "text": "because it is in our interest to stabilize a border or a situation okay it's not out of love and affection uh and sentiment that you do it's it's called calculation and Common Sense okay or agreements with China were reached in 1993-96 I'm not even getting into which government Etc I I think I try to avoid this this whole debate okay you know I don't like in foreign policy maybe it is because I've been myself so long in this field I don't like to necessarily say these people were right on those people are wrong I don't don't think it serves the nation well okay but if I do find that others are playing a political game where everything is being blamed on the present dispensation an entire history is being whitewashed I think the history has to come out okay now on uh the the question of breaking the agreement or not breaking the agreement generally countries as a rule sensible countries do not because what do you need most in international if you have a reputation as", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-64", "text": "need most in international if you have a reputation as a country which breaks agreement what do you think is the worth of your agreement that is China where have they kept the agreement with any country look no no hello from Pakistan for that matter from 1993 1990 okay no okay no forget bullet from 93 96 till 2020 was that agreement observed or not so how can you say you know the agreement is not worth a piece of paper and nothing all agreements must be they took excites in 1962-62 between they took akshar chain between 1958 and 1962. so if you didn't need agreements why did you sign them I mean you went in 1988 I mean Rajiv Gandhi went to Beijing in 1988 correct okay did you signed agreements in 93 96 I don't think signing those agreements was wrong I I disagree with you I mean and this is not a political point I'm making okay I think those agreements were signed because at that time we needed to stabilize the water and they", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-65", "text": "time we needed to stabilize the water and they did stabilize the Border please also note that so this idea suggestion of yours that people sign and compulsively break the next day that's not true hmm now why can't we not why can we not come to an agreement on where is the boundary where how many rounds of talks and it doesn't it's been non-conclusive because when people are the the claims when any other country's claims are not reasonable you will not come to agreement I mean you and I can come to an agreement if I make claims on you which are not reasonable but you will concede it because 25 rounds have happened you have to look at you know what is what is being discussed as well no right okay so look you know if I were to sum up the China thing I mean please do not you know buy this this whole uh I would say again I use this word this this narrative that somewhere government is on the defensive you know somewhere we are being", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-66", "text": "on the defensive you know somewhere we are being accommodated I mean I ask people if we were being accommodative who sent the Indian army to the lse didn't send them Narendra Modi Center okay we have today the largest peacetime deployment in our history on the China border and we are keeping troops there at a huge cost with great effort we have increased our infrastructure spending on the border five times in this comment so now tell me who's the defensive accommodative person in fact the question you should ask is who's actually telling the truth who's depicting things accurately who's playing footsie with history I think those are the questions which should be asked okay let me go to Pakistan and there's a number of people who are now expressing serious concern that here is a nuclear nation which is on the verge of an economic collapse if that happens it's in our neighborhood are we ready the influx of people who might come in into our country how do we deal with this situation where", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-67", "text": "our country how do we deal with this situation where this country could collapse no I I think you know uh Pakistan's future is largely determined by Pakistan's actions and by Pakistan's choices I mean nobody reaches a difficult situation uh sort of suddenly and without cause so it is for them to find a way out our relationship today is not one you know where we can be relevant directly to that process if I were to for example compare it to Sri Lanka which is a very different relationship which Sri Lanka still there is a lot of Goodwill in this country there's there's naturally a neighbor's concern somebody but there's also a feeling look you know we have to have them to get through this tomorrow if something happens to some other neighbor that would be the case as well but you know the you know what the sentiment in this country is about Pakistan yeah you know you were talking about these concentric circles when you said the neighborhood and then there's the second uh one of the most", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-68", "text": "and then there's the second uh one of the most dramatic achievements of your foreign policy has been uh India's Newfound status and reach out uh to the to the UAE to the Islamic World To The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia that's been quite an achievement when was that decision taken to reach out because otherwise it all that one heard was that OIC has something to say on Kashmir that was the maximum that one heard even though there was this large Indian people of Indian origin living in the Middle East I would say I started hearing it first soon after I became foreign secretary so it had been early 2015. it is possible that the Prime Minister may have had some thoughts and discussed it with other people before I came back to Delhi I can't I can't watch for it I'm glad you brought that up because if you were to ask me in 10 years give me two three examples of some big changes which have happened in our in our policy I would certainly put or change relationship", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-69", "text": "our policy I would certainly put or change relationship with the gulf a very very high up there on the list ah Why didn't it happen earlier uh my own sense we want a very very honest answer is I don't think people were strategically I think they you know when you have a boat Bank mentality uh you actually you you're not serious about foreign policy and uh I would say operationalizing it for you it's like a slogan that they are with us or you know uh so we kind of treated it as that's a place that you know that we get a petrol energy from there there's a big Community out there and the rest of it was like a like a ah like a distant you know uh a Goodwill uh which you needed for your political vote Bank calculations I think when you got a different government which said we are you know we we actually want something deeper more strategic with full elements a full spectrum relationship we have the ability today to deliver on lot of issues of your", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-70", "text": "ability today to deliver on lot of issues of your concern as well uh we are see you know part of it one of the reasons why the gulf looks at us the gulf sees today's India as much more credible than the idea of 10 years ago and you know as they say that's in spite of India having a right-wing government now I would say you know that's that's why you need to think of this kind of labels you ask people in the Gulf do you prefer prime minister Narendra Modi or any of his producers I'm willing to take a bet with you every one of the gulf countries would say I prefer the Prime Minister Modi why I think they think he's a more serious person uh he is a person who makes who's more credible who's who's actually broad-based that relationship he's done more for the relationship than everybody else and you know I I must once I I tell you very honestly uh I I was once at a conference in the gulf and I had some friends", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-71", "text": "a conference in the gulf and I had some friends from across the parliament trail with me and uh this issue came up and the person from the Gulf actually and this was like maybe 2018-19 he said you know these guys he's looking at me he said they've done more in four years than you guys did in 40. that's the kind of image that is in that part of the world is Kashmir on the table now it used to be I know is Kashmir on the table when you deal with uh countries in West Asia now what do you mean on the table do they speak about it do they ask you about it I mean look Kashmir is part of India I mean that that's it it was always a part of India but after the abrogation there was a Pakistani up the ante does that matter at all to these countries it doesn't come up in any of my conversations it doesn't come up okay I'm going to go on to these new Partnerships okay the new Partnerships", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-72", "text": "to these new Partnerships okay the new Partnerships that are happening you know the quad the I2 U2 India SEO India asean all these which are happening the opposition tends to say that though India is now partnering in all these groupings where is it going it's going well it's going up it's going good so what's the problem that that these are just talk shops and these are places where uh nothing gets done actually that India doesn't this whole thing about you know vishwa Guru and things where India is just posturing listen the opposition has to say things no they are opposition why would why would that be the basis for any serious question on your part so where where are we headed in as far as G20 is concerned uh it's become a people's business are we talking G20 no they're very different so I2 U2 breaks SEO look at the number of Partnerships that we have now okay ah all right very good let's stop there hmm why do we have so many", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-73", "text": "stop there hmm why do we have so many Partnerships answer because we get along with so many people how are we able to manage different kinds of Partnerships maybe because we're good at it maybe because they see value in US are they delivering things well it depends on them take quad for instance definitely quad has delivered uh on on a number of issues unlikely to deliver on many more in the case of I2 U2 it has just started but already there are projects on food security and renewable energy which have come out of it in some cases like bricks which by the way was not started recently it has a old history they are not meant to be necessarily translated into specific outcomes you know often they they express a collective position on a set of issues so I think it depends on on uh The Forum concerned I think you can't Club all of them it's not a one-size-fits-all but if I I mean as I said the opposition will say what it will but you please go out there", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-74", "text": "say what it will but you please go out there in the world I've just come back today from Australia yeah you know people regard quad as probably the most important foreign you know strategic foreign policy development in the last 20 years yesterday you were in Sydney I mean you just were in Australia Today you met with Senator Chuck Schumer and there's this whole talk that you know India has moved so close to the Western Bloc that our position which was Centrist with non-alignment no longer exists is that over uh well people who say that must have been on a holiday through January when we had 120 countries mainly from the global South engaging Us in what I think was probably the largest such exercise going on in the world and yes we have very good relations with the US generally with the best I don't think there's any reason for us to be defensive about it I think it's a national interest uh in fact if you you know uh if you look at the the big changes in the world uh I this is something", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-75", "text": "big changes in the world uh I this is something which has been very much uh in the making especially in the last decade but in all of this please see how how strongly our relationship with Russia's health study so I mean surely you do not suggest that our relationship with Russia is any the less over these years so Prime Minister Modi uh said uh told Putin that you know this is not an era war war is not going to be the solution uh you know two problems do you feel that the world is seeing it like that about the Ukraine crisis I think the world is still very divided the sentiment that prime minister voiced is a widely shared sentiment it's also a sentiment which is particularly strong in the countries of the South you asked me what is the voice of global South you know what I hear that about look today you have a huge number of countries in Africa and Asia and Central America Latin America Caribbean Pacific who feel that our issues are being put on the side and the entire", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-76", "text": "issues are being put on the side and the entire oxygen is being sucked up by the Ukraine conflict so nobody is really worrying about whether I get food and what cost I get food what's happening to fuel you know fertilizers debt and today remember even middle income countries are going into debt okay so the what be want to do and I think that was very much on prime minister's mind he wants somewhere to create a momentum for peace if you would and I think that was his first public expression remember he'd been talking to President Putin and zelinski on the phone as well and that was his first public expression in practical ways we've been helping out you know when this Black Sea grain deal was done we did a little bit there to help when I was in um in New York the Ukrainian prime minister actually had some concerns about the safety of the nuclear power plant so I spoke to RPM and then got his approval to you know to both Engage The", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-77", "text": "got his approval to you know to both Engage The Russians and pass on some messages there and the iaea as well we are working with the U.N Secretary General on some issues particularly fertilizer because a lot of the countries of the global South the developing countries they are facing serious fertilizer Securities because Russia is one of the biggest exporter of fertilizers so I don't you know uh I think it would not be fair today to reduce a very complex issue the Ukraine conflict to a you know binary of are you for are you on this side or that side are you for peace or for War uh I think it's much more intricate than that and we are involved in some of the intricacies but we have to you know wait and see where this is where this goes uh you know if if you know what what both Ukraine and Russia know is that if we can be of any use yeah we will be willing you know our our sort of uh capabilities and sort of Goodwill is there for", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-78", "text": "of uh capabilities and sort of Goodwill is there for that we'll have to wait and see where this goes so has the war impacted on this on the relationship between India and Russia and between Mr Modi and Mr Putin no no I look our relationship with Russia I think has been extraordinarily steady it has been steadied through all the turbulence in in global politics so as I said again you know the opposition perhaps it's their job to criticize it would be nice if they do it with a little bit more information and accuracy but I I do think you know some of what they say needs to be put through some kind of lens you know some kind of filter of you're putting it through a sieve right now reality and not very much is coming out of that scene so look I think today we are in a good position I mean we begin you ask me what is your nine year report card my relationship with the major powers is very good I grant you that China is an exception and it is", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-79", "text": "grant you that China is an exception and it is an exception and please notice I said China c-h-i-n-a okay you mention it yes so so I I grant you that China is an exception it is an exception because China has violated agreements that we have and is today uh has a posture on a border for which I had to have a counter posture but overall my relationship uh with the major Powers if you can call them are very good I think our relationship with Europe is probably the best ever that we've had uh our relationship with in in the quad the quad has really been a very very effective mechanism which is Australia Dr Jai Shankar there have been attacks on gurdwaras and temples in Australia Canada UK on temples on temples and in uh in Gurdwara in Canada uh there's a democrine temple temple in Canada okay so how are we going to react to this we have taken up we have taken the we have taken this up and we have uh you know cautioned these comments that", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-80", "text": "we have uh you know cautioned these comments that you know these are very radical extremist forces at work and that they need to they need to you know respond to it appropriately okay as I wind up I'm going to ask you a couple of questions come back to you uh you know uh you were in Fiji and at this a Hindi conference and you were speaking English and so how many languages do you speak here of polyglot I've heard you speak Russian no no no no this look this is this is all I'm I'm very I'm very very modest and realistic in making claims uh uh I I obviously I speak English I I speak Hindi I won't say at a very high standard but with a kind of a uh Street Smart fluency the tamilian Hindi or is it a J new Hindi no no it's actually a Delhi Hindi I mean I grew up in I was born in Delhi okay you were born in Delhi yes I was born in Delhi I was", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-81", "text": "Delhi yes I was born in Delhi I was born in Delhi I grew up in Delhi I spent you know most whatever time I've spent in India as loudly Delhi so it's a very Delhi persons uh I would say fluent not always complex Hindi but I I think um you're breaking the state stereotype of a tamilian speaking Hindi fluent Hindi you do speak so uh but you know because I grew up in Hindi I I didn't have the advantage of ever studying Tamil I spent very few years you grew up in Delhi so you speak in Delhi I've spent very very few years in but you can speak Tamil I can speak Tamil but not with uh not you know with the kind of fluency and command of vocabulary that I would like Russian is different because I actually studied Russian when I was in the Foreign Service we are allotted a language so I went there so I actually properly studied it using books and so on it's been many many years but", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-82", "text": "books and so on it's been many many years but what uh I have a certain vocabulary and a very very uh desert that residual memory so once you go in there you know it takes just a few days but the of you know the the vocabulary of foreign policy if I were to watch let us say news I'd be able to get a lot of that okay if I were to be on the the street it will take me longer because there'll be accent you know more colloquial stuff I have a certain I would say working a rudimentary sense of Japanese because I do need to talk to my wife from time to time okay so this Multicultural exchanges that you have at home tell me about that Japanese by Tamil husband you know look what has happened is we've we've kind of evolved something which is peculiar to us and this happens you know in this situation I mean it could be your food it could be your slang language you know what you say to each other I mean", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-83", "text": "you know what you say to each other I mean we use phrases which somebody else listening in would find very difficult because they could be Japanese slang put in an English sentence sometimes with a Hindi twist because my wife my wife's linguistic ability is much better than mine so so we we sort of end up with some kind of I would say uh you know I I learned uh Hungarian but unfortunately it's very Rusty because uh you the you know when you don't use a language reading it no no no no Hungarian okay but it's a it's a very complex language okay so it's a fenugreek group so uh so people make more claims about me than I do myself I'm very very uh everybody wants to know are you going to contest Lok Sabha polls in 2014 2024. uh I am a rajya Sabha member uh my term expires this year after that we'll have to see don't give you know I don't know how many 25 years maybe I've heard these diplomatic answers from", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-84", "text": "25 years maybe I've heard these diplomatic answers from you and tried to find answers no no look uh on on would you want to uh on these things you know I I tell you I'm going back to your first question I am actually honestly in awe of people of everybody irrespect of our party who have spent their lives in politics because you actually don't know how incredibly hard it is how demanding it is you know what how much it takes up not of your time but of your life you know the kind of effort that they put you know there are no Saturday Sunday holiday morning night nothing and it's only when you are in politics that you can actually see ah what it is and I would say those who particularly contest Lok Sabha they are like at The Cutting Edge Cutting Edge of that because it's it's a it's an enormous demand but most people would think that it's a life of privilege Latins Bungalow I I I know that is the that is the popular impression", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-85", "text": "I know that is the that is the popular impression and I say this uh you know please do not think I'm saying it because I joined politics I'm saying it because actually I I'm only now getting into Political life and I'm getting into it at a fairly ripe age from from another profession even I did not realize it till you know I would watch politicians as I said you know watching them meeting them from time to time is very different when you actually see the lives live the life you know uh the the kind of travel they do the kind of uh openness of you know which you with which you have to uh keep your activities going it's it's you're doing that in rajya Sabha you're doing that as a rajya Sabha MP you're traveling a lot you're traveling within the country you're traveling outside the country look I it's not it's not a fact on what what the others do I mean because I I do spend uh you know as a minister I have to", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-86", "text": "uh you know as a minister I have to spend a lot of time here as a Delhi person I have to spend a lot of time here you know the the rajya Sabha demands are far less than the Lok Sabha demands so I I look at my honestly my colleagues and again this is a non-political it's a non-partisan point it's a political point I actually Marvel at at really you know how much of an effort people in politics have to make it so it's a very tough life it is just in conclusion when I talk about when you were saying non-partisan uh I must comment on this that when when you joined uh the government there are many in my uh friend circle in my colleague Circle who were like why does Dr Jay Shankar want to join politics why he's had such a sterling career in uh in bureaucracy and many felt very let down when you joined politics that you know now you've chosen a party you represented just India but now you've", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-87", "text": "chosen a party you represented just India but now you've chosen a political party and in 2014 there was a kind of a watershed moment and maybe even 2018 later 2019 too where even in you know Mr Modi brings that out in many people the people adore him and they're on you know like him a lot and on the other side they feel that no not him so when you chose to join the BJP you made that choice you moved away did you feel you lost friends at that stage or many people who moved away from you no look I as I said I gave it a lot of thought remember I became minister at the end of uh me I think I joined the party I can't remember the exact date but I must have thought about it roughly for about a month you know I mean thought about it means not like every day thinking about it but I gave the matter thought uh I I joined because my sense is that they are the right party uh the right time for India's rise and", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-88", "text": "right party uh the right time for India's rise and progress because at the end of the day when you ask so what are you in it for you know uh after all which one of us would not like to say I also made some difference somewhere you know the country went up and somewhere you can debate how much so uh uh I I you know I had no active desire to to join politics at all I mean to me as I said it came as a complete surprise that the Prime Minister could even consider me uh for for such a such a job and I became a minister before I convented a political party so I would be somewhat different from many other people you know who may have also been in bureaucracy before before they went down that route ah I do feel sometimes that you know uh the the argumentation the debate sometimes the relationships the civility uh especially in Delhi uh is uh is more polarized than it should be than it should be for the people concerned or for", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-89", "text": "it should be for the people concerned or for the good of the country but you know sometimes that is that is the way it is Europe daily boy you also lived in Washington DC I think it was Reagan right who said that if you want a friend in this instrument true one who said get a dog go get a dog do you feel that about Delhi too no no no look I I I still I do not get the time to socialize anymore uh uh I snatch you know uh hello there and a cup of coffee here sort of thick but I I wouldn't say that maybe I you know some of this are arguments with people I've known for a long time so I I I I know what you are saying I I know there are many people uh who you and I have both known for a long time decades uh decades who have political uh preferences which are very different from mine but you know my my understanding of what our life in a Democratic Society is supposed to be is that", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-90", "text": "a Democratic Society is supposed to be is that you know you you each have your Viewpoint I I don't necessarily build my friendships uh on on party positions do the others do the same others meaning the others those same people who are unable to keep up with those friendships because of your political decision I I honestly don't know the answer I think that's something you have to ask them uh I mean I uh I I do accept that you know in the last few years there would be people who who who whose political feelings are so strong that you know it may have it may be coloring the vision of me but I would say at least my closest friends many of whom by the way are not BJP supporters or Modi supporters my really closest friends I have not seen that happening what is your day of like last question when you want to chill when you want to relax what do you do um read a book music go for a meal no no what do we do oh look I I read", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-91", "text": "no what do we do oh look I I read a lot even otherwise I don't need you know because I I'm on a plane you know if you're in planes and you fly commercial you don't even take a special aircraft I I apply commercial as far as I can yeah uh and you're the old-fashioned you'd carry books yes I carry books you're not a Kindle person as yet or you're not you're not all that you still carry this old-fashioned yes because you know I kind you know books at least I'm old-fashioned I do watch movies uh I uh usually download it on my you know oh no I've never seen you watching a movie in a flight or you know chilling with the movie I've always seen you with books uh maybe we should fly right now together all right on that note thank you so much for this conversation thank you it was a pleasure thanks thank you for watching or listening into this podcast do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste thank you", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "aec29555fd6b-92", "text": "you have seen this or heard this namaste thank you [Music]", "source": "uXKnm5Gzfjk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-0", "text": "foreign [Music] that's the beauty of my country say S I was always told and I am still told I do expose people who say is I give it back to them also but uh what would be much talked about where I am going to expose a maulvi imagine the prime minister of the country gives you a call and he wishes you well he wishes you Eid and he says if he could speak with Mama I remember that shine in my mom's eyes I want to tell them all these male anchors character assassination of intelligence what do you need a private part for journalism no you don't need you need a good brain sharp eyes you need uh you know your nose to smell something is uh fishy what do you mean Namaste jaihin welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is noted anchor rubika leyakat rubika made a name for herself for her Fury style of anchoring news bulletins whether in Zee TV and now with ABP", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-1", "text": "bulletins whether in Zee TV and now with ABP News where she continues with the same style of picking up contentious topics and getting all sides of the debate on her shows rubika does on-ground reporting and is often criticized for editorializing news she's active on social media where true to her style the posts are a lot about who she is as a person fearless and bold being a progressive Muslim woman professional she finds herself at odds with those who want to box her into slots here's rubika liyakat uncensored rubika being a friend of mine we discussed a whole host of topics and she spoke about her personal life her trials and tribulations without hesitation rubika thank you so much for coming on my podcast I've been wanting for viewers and listeners I been wanting to have rubika on the show for several months but Madam her channel so I've been telling her she's like a firefighter Jesus exactly so thank you Rebecca for coming thank you so much or uh first", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-2", "text": "Rebecca for coming thank you so much or uh first of all I apologize and I would say I am sorry I won't be able to come I'm in ayodhya I am in badrinath I am here I am there but this time I'm nowhere I'm here I'm in fact podcast with Smitha prakash yes thank you for plugging that so and if anything else you know I was always I used to say please elections like we can enjoy and it will never happen it will never happen why do you say that so always I have made this uh a formula whatever I like I'm never going to tell my boss but even politicians but the privately that they should be you know one election every five years or maybe one midterm election continuous election it is it's exhausting and I think it it's a drain on resources what do you think I really think that it's a good idea you know we should uh we should sit and discuss about it and find out a way because you're absolutely right", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-3", "text": "and find out a way because you're absolutely right that is um you're always in election mode so whenever you are in election mode your for the politicians you are in the promise mode you're never in delivering so then obviously you would want it from the other states to help this is how it goes and uh uh you will always be in that mode where you have to keep asking people to help you instead of helping people which you actually made to do and you won't be able to do it you don't do it so I personally feel that decide but do it once and fall for five years and then uh so you're right I mean I openly say we'll get into politics but before that I think my viewers want to know everything about you as a person okay journalism did you always want to get into journalism what was the motivation to get into journalism it's a very interesting story so my daddy [Music] so she would have Quran in her hand I have seen her reading Quran or", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-4", "text": "in her hand I have seen her reading Quran or Sarah yeah they were like four or five people in my family so my father a cricketer my mother a scientist I remember my who's struggling at that time he was pretty young and he was trying to figure out what he wants to do so sometimes he wanted to be a cricketer obviously he was he was playing for the uh for the state but he wanted to model also he wanted to have his business also so I remember him and my daddy and so these four people and I was pretty young probably seven eight or shadow foreign would sit down at around nine in front of TV and would listen to this woman with flower you know and I would just you know kind of uh Wonder that a cricketer religious and there's this confused man in Charo um and I didn't know that she's a journalist or an anchor I didn't know I just knew that this woman has got something that she grabbed the attention of four disparate people again and and that", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-5", "text": "the attention of four disparate people again and and that is when probably you know somewhere in your subconsciousness yeah it was there foreign and then my father you know he would look at these people by line in the newspaper so he thought okay I did not think about it but this is now you're talking about like from a a Midtown level person in Rajasthan you know yeah to think that didn't so was it a big step for you to get out of the state get out into the big bad world of Journalism of Delhi Noida rather and and before yeah I went to uh pursue my bachelor of mass media uh there in Mumbai Mumbai University so uh and and would you believe he's my father sent me alone alone as in udaipur say and he knew that she is going to so I chose which place I would be so risby College was the one obviously College minority and then I uh I found hostel for myself YWCA and then I Feast I I called him so he", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-6", "text": "and then I Feast I I called him so he said you have to uh I will send it to your puppy and this puppy you know she told me six months later Smitha that your father told me she will do everything on her own so he was preparing me and I was angry inside that you know but it was because they wanted me to taste that you know uh struggle beginning they did not want to give everything in the plate so anyways I went there uh you remember North India versus politics so it was then also I'm talking about 2003 four five six caspas so so instead of I had 36 sub subjects in uh to cover in three years I don't remember single book Wojo academics I don't remember name of a single book but I I remember and memorize I remember memorizing these 3600 characters that I met in Mumbai those three years and it prepared me for the battle in Noida really yeah who are these people uh who influenced you so much I wouldn't", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-7", "text": "uh who influenced you so much I wouldn't use influence as a word I I would I would use learning from them so so they were they were the my my uh you know classmates and there were teachers as well and different characters okay I remember these characters uh so I was from Rajasthan and they were from a Metro City I'll tell you how um so I I did my schooling from a convent school but it was from udaipur uh education education so obviously I learned it so so my accent also wasn't that great huh so uh so they would you know always make fun of me no and they would say for them Rajasthan was register and your mother is a scientist and and it was a cultural shock for me and I was um and uh I would never be a part of any group that is so funny [Laughter] yeah we could because I would say yeah true the last thing must have heard that was mughliers because I was away from my parents person okay so so there", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-8", "text": "was away from my parents person okay so so there was a lot of difficulties and then um obviously the accent hmm foreign not as it is today huh so uh but when I came to Delhi okay you know more uh and here I realized that people in the Hindi media industry are more from you know Bihar from Rajasthan uh I would write about it sometimes because I have lived Mumbai I have lived Delhi not in I'm saying I've lived both this experiences you know um Delhi is like a queen cheese so these are two places nobody says like that usually you know they say um uh nobody refers to a Delhi girl as a queen maybe it is true that there are several kinds of Delhi girls it takes a little while to come to that level absolutely and uh like I said it has her own set of rules and if if you kind of uh stick with those rules and I'm saying um foreign don't try to be her and she will treat you like a", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-9", "text": "to be her and she will treat you like a queen so Delhi and I and I instantly understood Delhi when I came here really okay and I think that I have to inform at least couple of people that I am going to be here it could be my parents it could be my husband it could be my friend my sister anybody and uh um Ika I'm going to move on to uh to a topic that you know initially I had thought is there is more to you than just this you can't be stereotyped I can't be but I will ask you because you know you have broken so many stereotypes and I have always admired you for that you know uh I know your family and uh I know you as a friend for several years but still for our viewers for our listeners I need you to tell me what it was like going growing up in a progressive household where you know there will be relatives because as a progressive Muslim family uh there will be also conventional kind", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-10", "text": "Muslim family uh there will be also conventional kind of mores Christian families but I would think that it would be a uh in in probably in some of your family setup or your neighborhood or your friend circle of your mother what was it like and also to have to have such an educated family your mother being a scientist that influence on you so do you know I am ambidextrous no I didn't I use both my hands you know why because my father wanted me to be a cricketer um my uh my side of people are progressive but they couldn't digest the facts so then that idea was dropped and uh because I succeeded in what I uh kind of pursued like you're saying that opposition families and I was always a different girl so when my parents uh agreed okay agreed journalism Bollywood and everybody started talking about and they would always think and my father and my mother would never pay attention and modern scene is a negative thing very negative very negative foreign [Music] so I would do", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-11", "text": "negative very negative foreign [Music] so I would do all those things my father said so uh she needs ocean and that is the reason he said captain foreign but he knew that she has potential and uh my father is the one who pushed my mother to do PhD and that is when she kind of discovered this species uh that is studied after marriage yeah my father said you study she was a clerk clerical fourth grade employees lab assistant so she said I can't I have two babies I won't be able to do it and he said I will take care of your babies my father was just a graduate and a cricketer so she disagreed okay [Music] um so he said I will do it for you and I remember my father bathing me and my sister making you know my choti and pony you know for listeners and viewers by this is so important why I wanted Rebecca to tell me all this story about her parents because of this this misconception that people have that in Muslim", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-12", "text": "this this misconception that people have that in Muslim families men don't encourage their women got his wife looked after the family and got his wife to do PhD after marriage go on rubika and uh I still remember my mother keeping that is and and and I've seen my father working with her day and night and my father would sometimes proudly say so uh we were the we were two little girls and we would see my father doing everything for and he would proudly say um my father and he would say and my mother wouldn't do anything without him so I I come from that background and I was always told and I and I am still told so if I have to get scared of someone and then there is my father and family backdrops backgrounds all three of you have to do something you can't be sitting home and you you have to become independent you can't be dependent on anybody all three women in their different my sisters and entrepreneur my mother obviously Maybe yeah competition healthy competition", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-13", "text": "entrepreneur my mother obviously Maybe yeah competition healthy competition and then there was this coach of ours she does much better than motivation Always Forever so uh and he he had put these blinkers on our faces Smitha foreign and we we don't look anywhere man who he's there and my God is there nobody else yeah because you know I mean as as an anchor most women anchors get a lot of love and a lot of hate I've seen people come to you and take selfies from you know anywhere in India to even in Dubai I was with you in Dubai and I've seen people coming and you know gushing about how how great you are and they love your work but I've also seen how you know how much of hate and how much of you know disgusting comments come your way because of a certain uh because you editorialize your news you're not just presenting your yo you come out in your news like when you're talking about the hijab controversy or when you're talking about anything about", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-14", "text": "controversy or when you're talking about anything about a certain mawlana who'll say that you know uh election ticket I've seen that you put your views also and because of that you get a lot of hate from traditional so I would think that somewhere you're getting a strength to battle that also isn't it yeah and you know there are there there even if I put a dot and if you want we can do a live demonstration put a dot and leave it on Twitter yeah the filth is going to come back so I have started using Twitter as a bhopu you know a speaker where I would say what I feel and I would not keep it to myself you know what happens Smita especially with my community my people uh and majority of them this is uh a fact that is known to everybody and uh foreign foreign and then what happens the first and the foremost thing that same person is going to do is come out of the ghetto hmm and then they will start socializing and", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-15", "text": "ghetto hmm and then they will start socializing and they will sit with you and talk 10 000 things about my community and they will go back to the community on Friday and they'll talk different things about you to the community they will create a bigger wall between my community and the you know outside world you have become good you have earned well in your life you have got education give it back to the society no you will just keep you will have the bestest of things in the world you'll come out of that ghetto you will enjoy as much as you can and when it comes to kind of educate your society and tell that no no you have to agree with what they are saying this is not right in closed doors you would say yeah this is all bakwas and in front of the com you would say yeah and what am I doing I'm exposing this also in this also yeah so I will get uh you know kind of abuses from both the sides and does it upset you you know", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-16", "text": "the sides and does it upset you you know sometimes you sometimes you get upset but then what I do is I just kind of you know brush that dust off my shoulder and I'm how does that matter you're constantly on air to to vent emotions but there are times I guess it does it does upset it used to huh it used to yeah what is wrong I am trying to do something for my Society hindustanco a Kanna Hindu or Muslims hmm all these people I'll just give you one instance there was this uh there was this uh probably Agra uh foreign so I said we'll do a phono and before that I just called the the reporter from that particular area and I asked uh um [Music] so it was a Convent School just go and find out um foreign I give it back to them also but uh what would be much talked about where I am going to expose a malvi and why wouldn't I agree you're going to give it to the people or", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-17", "text": "agree you're going to give it to the people or maikong I will expose it after some days or probably some years they would realize that I wasn't wrong for example on the hijab thing I remember that MIM uh what's that spokesperson's name right so with yeah where he was telling you about how it is in the Quran and he was trying to tell you that it is in the Quran and that hijab is compulsory he was trying to tell you and you said and so you know what happened was that I saw that on air and I saw it the other day and then I had always see in my show and I was asking him what he had said about hijab because he had said that inshallah one day there will be president of India Joe hijab um so I asked him I said why do you have to say hijab you can have a Muslim right whether hijab or not do you ever say that Hindu mahila president Hindu will be a", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-18", "text": "Hindu mahila president Hindu will be a president a Christian will be a president nobody why is important because you see his speech somewhere is something else somewhere is something else so the same thing and that's why I want to ask you is that what is your view you on it because you you've done this fabulous Instagram post I'm going to play that Instagram post and after playing that Instagram post I'm going to ask you to speak yeah hijab compulsory hijab I um foreign Quran is foreign foreign foreign foreign [Music] foreign foreign foreign [Music] foreign foreign in religion is I'm comfortable with it foreign foreign foreign foreign foreign foreign you have gone into it you have read it and so what do you have to say to people who don't want to listen to this but have their own view their own interpretation about it so it I have explained hijab is not the scarf we are talking about okay you you uh journalism that is true yes you have the Liberty to say that okay and", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-19", "text": "yes you have the Liberty to say that okay and and your father has a lot of stories your father-in-law have a lot of stories to share with you and and I challenge you Smita I challenge you just find women uh around 1947 or before that where was the burqa do you remember any um they have different style of their clothes where is the burqa where did it come from you tell me one freedom fighter of hindustani sari Muslim you remember any of them wearing burqa give me one name yeah they used to wear saree um that's the parampara of my zameen kabila you would you he would say this you know kabila is an important what is my kabila today if in this entire if you ask uh what is Hindustan that's my habila boundaries geography is India foreign foreign giving us Gan here about islami must be a sanatana and we are told this is and Islam is comparatively a new religion all of them are converted they converted what is um", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-20", "text": "all of them are converted they converted what is um what is wrong in that but what you were saying is your kabila which is Hindustan a geographical boundary but there are many who say that that's not it they say that com is not the geographical boundary of Bharat of Hindustan it is somewhere else isn't it so go and ask those who are located somewhere else would they open their arms for these uh people here who are saying we belong there be practical yeah everybody knows about this the kind of love the kind of affection the kind of respect that you get here an Indian Muslim would you get anywhere else they would say no and and they are they're uh very clear about it they wouldn't get it and please we have we have to kind of uh separate these two people who are playing on behalf of my com and my com these are two very different aspects I am whenever I am on ground I am in touch with my people my community and they are not", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-21", "text": "touch with my people my community and they are not like that there's no darker Mahal in your community when you meet there's no that there is no space for an Indian Muslim in India foreign you come with me I'll take you to whichever ghetto you want to go the eldest woman in that area go ask her are you scared what is your most precious valuable thing she wouldn't point at her daughters and son she would just look at the Quran which is kept by her side all the time and she would point there and she would say yeah and you try to snatch that from her from a 96 year old woman she wouldn't give it to you and and I guarantee you can't do it with to any woman any Muslim woman in India I'm telling you just go and ask any woman okay but there are people who would say this needs to go away or and when I say this I am given names or is Hindu or is I am called a right winger what is a right", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-22", "text": "I am called a right winger what is a right winger keeping India United is right winger talking about your parampara your culture is right winger and being proud of it is right finger a Muslim woman cannot talk about Indian culture you become right finger it happened recently when you went to ayodhya and dhanteras you celebrated because you said that my mother used to tell me then and now my sister reminded me you put out that yes and then you there was a blowback for me it is not there for my children it is never going to be there for my family for people who know me and you're talking about me there are so many families Smitha many people need to know this that there are many many many families uh in India foreign yes this is a fact that they do not like BJP and they have no qualms in saying that and even this party knows about it so uh so anything that happens in the regime or anything that is done by the regime uh", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-23", "text": "or anything that is done by the regime uh I'm not going to get into that but what I'm trying to say is that uh it's happening today that they are being seen uh this way uh you understand like for example you went and did this the anger that came towards you there'll be many others who probably are doing that but when they see this thing happening and maybe you know their neighbors don't like it Things become lesser and lesser I remember also that you wear a bindi you wear gajra in your hair you go you know you wear a sari you celebrate all these things but then comes this thing why are you doing it why are you everything becomes something to beat you with yeah and I'm doing it for a reason because I'm being paid huh yeah because I've been given uh a certain task James Bonds you really think that I would put a bindi for a task you really think I would wear a sari because I've I've been given a task I have been doing", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-24", "text": "I've been given a task I have been doing it forever and ever and ever and and I'm telling you Smith or just try just close your eyes and try to remember a Muslim woman back then secularism secularism so you are tagged so like we were talking about hijab right so my which you said uh you've said it in your many shows when when the whole question about that Karnataka girls came up hijab um what is more important to a girl at that stage that's also a tradition she doesn't want to break it but for what is more important I think but uh has anybody stopped them to wear it in the Gali Mahala no in the market no has anybody stopped them to wear it wherever they want except the institution where they're going for the education you will not wear it from the Ghar it is said that when you enter you will have to kind of quietly keep it in your cupboards or bag or whatever so that there is what is uniform for God's sake use use", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-25", "text": "is what is uniform for God's sake use use your brain uniform is for the uniformity you are no different from me he being rich or she being rich is not there you're wearing a uniform you're wearing same kind of dress clothes difference now that's the simple idea behind it and now you if you start and they say um [Music] no they're not going that ways foreign but just because you know they are targeting us this victim card you know have debit card have credit card have all the kinds of cards you want to have do not have this victim card it is not going to take you anywhere it will put you in debt that's what I'm I'm I really want to tell all these people especially ask yourself ask yourself look in the mirror and ask yourself and they will say no um that no you are being discriminated discriminated discriminated you know it's easy it's a comfort factor but I can't compete because I'm being discriminated because so I didn't get the job I", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-26", "text": "discriminated because so I didn't get the job I didn't get the movie that I want to act in because I have a particular surname or whatever but you can find many reasons for failures you know you try another way don't you agree with that no no you're absolutely right and you you uh in eni might have a lot of people who belong to different uh cars Community religion so what you think that way is [Music] I'm not saying all of them I'm going to paint everybody you know in the same color and everybody knows and it happens in other parts of the world also or America maybe you have to bring about in private sector and all that diversity policy in hiring um that's not the case we had a diversity policy in hiring even before even before it became fashionable diversity right I'm not talking just about a I but in your Newsroom also there are people of all religions when you when you're sitting in the canteen people of all religions", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-27", "text": "sitting in the canteen people of all religions are there right you start your day it starts from a person who's from a different Community different religion and you end your day uh or is is beached you know these 24 hours you have 10 different people from 10 different uh part of the kind of country they belong to different uh sex they belong to different uh families can you can you kind of separate them you can't so this I am my lived experience you're feeling this I'm sorry I'm interrupting you you lived experience in the middle of the day he goes for his prayer takes a break boss gives him a break you are being discriminated foreign you know somewhere someone must have told you that you know you this must be happening with you know just because you are uh from uh minority Community I'm sure you know people you would be treating you a lesser or differently and probably that day something may have happened and the boss may have yelled but I'm saying", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-28", "text": "and the boss may have yelled but I'm saying why would you want to listen to anybody else listen to you Allah listen to your own people I listen to my daddy my daddy is uh son that is my father I listen to my mother I listen to my my uh why would I want to listen to anybody else why do you want to portray that no no you are the pakka musalman footballers that girlfriend of his uh is staying and in Saudi Arab there is a law that you cannot stay together in a room in a hotel if you're not married for them the law is broken for everybody else it remains same yeah um so what happens is that they confuse and until unless your you will educate yourself both ways Quran also and the education that is needed for the real world if you don't understand these two together you are never going to kind of be at peace but tell me rubika when you when you pick up these stories and do in your bulletins uh are", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-29", "text": "up these stories and do in your bulletins uh are you told that story is it told to you because you might get influenced or you might have a bias no and the best part about my channel ABP network is that if you have an opinion say it loud and uh I'm thankful that I've got an editor who you know takes care of this freedom freedom and they know what am I known for so you think it is going to be possible in this world digital world that I have my own opinion and I kind of put something else on TV that doesn't work that transparency today is known to everybody so uh I have never been told hey Google what is trb trp is you watching it yeah so you're basically saying it to your own self so I tell people okay by the way I have made sure and I want to tell you that is but there's this one instance that I want to share so there was this Maulana who would come and now I stopped calling him after", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-30", "text": "who would come and now I stopped calling him after that he knows it I'm not going to name him he knows it so so he called me and he said could you help me so obviously we are here to help each other I said what is the matter so this uh Paul visap tells me that who um so if you could help us if you could you know kind of put in a word for us and if that could be done I really don't know how it is done I I will try to figure out and then the next nine he says and I was like um and he realized that okay yeah and this happened to me he knows if he's listening he knows and he still goes in the TV debates and he talks about Islam and I'm I'm saying it today at smitha's podcast that I will name you someday and I'll shame you so that this country knows that who they are dealing with and I said and these are the people who talk about Islam and", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-31", "text": "and these are the people who talk about Islam and who talk about an interesting thing is that for this this maulvi calls uh my husband he says and then he says uh there are many men who think that they can take the liberty of saying this and I'm not just saying men there are women also who come across and tell women is this news is this what you do news you know earlier I used to say that Twitter handle say I will not uh I will not say anything against women of my profession I will not there used to be a kind of an omerta code seniors because there are so few of us we should stand by each other people have broken that that code that silent code huh that's gone and I've seen senior women put down other women they have they have broken the glass ceiling it's because of their head younger women are coming forward you know they don't have to do the fights that we had to do similarly we didn't have to do the fights or above", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-32", "text": "we didn't have to do the fights or above ladies these putting down the younger journalists and laughing about the way they are dressed it just bothers me so much yeah I I remember the episode you're talking about and is it only about these women who are out of the system these days it's about even men who are out of the system these days they give us the lecture on journalism you know I have seen how they used to operate I've seen how they used to work and we were babies then we we would uh kind of look up to them we have seen how they used to work how there was uh you know there would be a meeting held of different channels editors together that you know we think this is the news this is this is how the agenda would be so they should not be giving us Gyan at least we have all the transparency I have seen the kind of professionalism uh you know that was missing then it is today the transparency and the professionalism and immediac", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-33", "text": "today the transparency and the professionalism and immediac Cena don't have the uh the the facilities you would know this more no because you've worked with them also yeah I'm saying I was I was just a baby I didn't know all this I and now when I look back and and I see these people lecturing us I'm you know I I just wonder how could you possibly do that yeah you were there you did things that nobody can even imagine no especially in Hindi media Smitha if somebody wanted to kind of uh have naukri in some other channel because a knows B are good friends networking strong friends so you met a you came out a call B where you're working and B would call you and say your career was put at halt not just professionally financially also because the kind of jump that you would get uh by going to the airport by going to the other channel you can't because a is Pali with B and this this used to happen and now it doesn't happen", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-34", "text": "this used to happen and now it doesn't happen anymore and now you're giving Gyan to us we have seen all of it yeah so you're talking about women I'm saying about these men also in the industry yeah and everything is clear today everything is social media yeah the social media you feel that it has its negatives but it has it it's very strongly helped women in careers isn't it do you feel that yes it has so people say rubika uh they keep hurling abuses at you you know they're more sharper than these blades and stones and I say uh I have never seen social media that ways I don't pay attention I told you in the beginning I my father has put these blinkers these people have um why would I even give them but social media in that ways has helped me because uh people from guwahati you know from from uh far thiruvananthapuram or story ideas and and they say we we saw this you look lovely in this attire uh", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-35", "text": "saw this you look lovely in this attire uh your uh that one liner was amazing you wouldn't be in touch with them if social media wasn't there so for me it has always been a blessing you know I I want to play this uh yeah [Music] foreign [Music] I follow you on Instagram your Instagram handle is very interesting I follow you everywhere you flattered um you know your workout it's very important you say because you you keep saying this keep mentally strong radically physically strong and you keep putting that out out here that you know it helps in the mental well-being tell me something about that if I don't exercise I'm not breathing it's a must I listen to my body and uh so it started uh then I was in z i got pregnant and obviously pregnancy means halt pause because you have to deliver you have to be with the baby for at least those three six months and I probably wasn't I did not see it coming I was anchoring on Z till my", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-36", "text": "it coming I was anchoring on Z till my eighth month till ninth month yeah till uh I became so big and uh Subhash ji once saw me and he said oh you're pregnant that's why you're looking fat man and then I said this was indeed many many years ago so so Z doesn't kind of no they don't say anything yeah they don't say anything I I uh anchor till the last day and then I said and I used to wear my heels why I used to wear my heels because I was like physically very active uh my ignorant cookies before this you know viewers were in Kashmir we were in gulmarg as a patrila Pura and barf it was it was snowing there was ice everywhere it was like we were trying to climb this area stop it nobody is listening and we were this group of journalists all of us were like you know wearing sneakers and coat and all and Madam G like puree you know she I think you look you thought", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-37", "text": "puree you know she I think you look you thought you were Sarah Banu I think in kashmiruchi heel pancake she's going up and one of our journalists foreign actually that's like so anyway now let's come from shami Kapoor uh to uh and Aditya I was like how is she going to climb this mountain with these heels and he started videoing and she climbed it okay okay we must please agree to this that I have seen a lot of women saying that you know this may have happened with a kind of motiva women okay what I so so people do ask me you being a woman was your journey kind of full of struggle I said it was uh it was full of struggles it is still full of struggles but it will add on to my struggle if you just you know kind of give it to me that is full of struggles what do you need for journalism I I generally ask this and I outrightly ask this what do you need a private part", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-38", "text": "ask this what do you need a private part for journalism no you don't need you need a good brain sharp eyes you need uh you know your nose to smell something is uh fishy you need your ears uh I'm all ears and you need fingers to write something or type something or if you are an anchor like me you need a strong kind of voice and sharp tongue what else do you need what else do you need and you need that passion so is it lesser in a woman has it ever happened to me no it has never happened to me for me my age has been a problem that I am pretty much younger than the people who are right now at 9 00 pm so so bigger shoes and you know so I would I would always be loved it asking [Music] um you know uh stall words yeah big faces nobody that's a big word yeah yeah so um and and I would I I would be told that you know foreign how do I connect to my audience", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-39", "text": "you know foreign how do I connect to my audience now and it's been like good five years I've been doing nine and is doing pretty good so uh um foreign but it's the other way around also for women you know many women anchors are told that you're too old because television is about the younger medium yes that you don't fit into that Matlab you are not extremely thin you're not like navika's broken that mold by being a sorry clad and not extremely thin person who's anchoring on Hindi and English you know and she's doing both very rarely will you find people doing both languages she could have you know dropped the idea she did not she was consistent she had that passion you have this passion you can sit back home and you know relax or go on a long vacation and just you know kind of go away from it you you also can say I've been there I've seen it all now you know it's not the time no but you're still fighting has anybody ever", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-40", "text": "time no but you're still fighting has anybody ever asked you Smitha or has anyone ever asked navika about you know but it's like you can say what you want but that that's you're fighting no you are not saying just because I've been pushed I'll be in the corner now that fight is constant no you're fighting I am saying that you have to fight for it you can't say anything like for example you interviewed a Prime Minister Modi didn't people say in your own channel that did people tell the boss your bosses I am not sure because nobody said it to me if they had said to me I would have obviously answered them and and they know that I will fight for it they know they they ask me would you be doing this you want to do this and I'm always a yes woman I never say no so so you have to decide as as a woman uh was there any sort of uh kind of uh partiality uh that because I am a woman I wasn't", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-41", "text": "uh that because I am a woman I wasn't given that opportunity and a male counterpart was given the opportunity no I would fight for it and then you would say um you will have to fight for it every day so when I became uh when I got pregnant I was I was 90 kgs and then um what would you do now because on screen you have to look a slim you know good looking woman not that uh Joseph they are not good looking but to each its own kinds jobs so you always miss that screen presence and Camera so what do I do now I don't want my Editor to you know kind of make bahanas and tell me we had to come to our exercise take my blinkers so three months I have to be now uh back in shape so I have a child in my hand and my would come and say hey um eleventh day I was walking on the road and my mother also huh eat have ghee have us up so anyways uh so they were after my life to", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-42", "text": "so anyways uh so they were after my life to get back into action huh and uh exportsman key Betty when your father who is himself a sports person when he sees you he knows that you have to be active you have to be fit and uh there are many people who say Okay body challenge you are eating eating wrong things and putting on weight does nature allow this you have to ask yourself which you keeps writing in your Instagram that it's also important for your mental well-being you know because high pressure jobs May mental well-being is important because managing home and work it's not just for journalists any woman don't know so that exercise when you put it out it's to motivate other people or just for yourself no it is to motivate all the women who think even I really want to tell all these women that you have to live for yourself also no everything is for Bacha and everything is for Pati and there's nothing for you so Pati takes out time for himself Bacha is going to", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-43", "text": "takes out time for himself Bacha is going to grow up and go away and and you would not be living your precious time uh and then you would be complaining tomorrow so why to look outwards look inwards no do things for yourself we've all grown up with this family did not have any needs of her own or put her needs aside Ambitions aside it has to change it has to change but I am telling you if he knows how to take out time for himself and I'm not saying that his work is lesser than ours I I completely respect my uh you know male counterparts and uh also because their journey is also not smooth as we think they don't they don't you won't see men crying yeah you know you won't see men complaining we say it and we finish it is a man has his own Journey so I respect that but I'm saying it is you left everything for your kids and for your family you sacrifice yourself don't sacrifice your own self respect", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-44", "text": "yourself don't sacrifice your own self respect your own self if you don't respect yourself nobody else will respect you have to worship your body if you can't worship your body nobody why why would someone else uh respect your body when you are not respecting your body so you'll say how do you respect you don't respect your body by eating unlimited things you respect your body by keeping it in discipline you respect your body by uh you know giving it the kind of physical activity one would need puranism exercise foreign it's a sedentary lifestyle but most women have this you know like I just read uh a news report uh just a sports women motherhood or medals you know like what do you do for sports women um you have sports persons anyway even men have that option okay because Olympics so you know your family pressure comes and you know all those things happen and for women all the more I think right that these choices are put on women very early in life uh as compared to men yeah and", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-45", "text": "early in life uh as compared to men yeah and then you have to decide no well you have to choose and then you choose everything and you leave everything that that's what happens uh what has happened in my case uh trust me I I was I was uh kind of I knew what I want and and I knew that I would not have time to to give it to my child what would I do and I would not want someone else to take care of my child uh you know help I wouldn't want it from outside so I said I don't want a child my job that is when I would do it my mother was after my life and so was my father and they would just you know be calling me and saying you you are not serious enough I said this is not happening so I called all three so my mother-in-law my father my mother and then I said listen you give it to me in writing that you will be there with my child and then they just you know kind", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-46", "text": "with my child and then they just you know kind of go away what would I do because I know I I love my career also when it comes obviously I will have to be there with my kid but there will there has to be someone who takes care of my child and I'm so thankful Smith I'm so thankful but sometimes I just look up and I complain mama you promised me that you're not going to you you said you promised me that you're going to be there so uh she's there she's inside me and my father is there it's your pinned tweet that your mother is not there with you but she she's within me I have started laughing like her I behave like her yeah and I've taken up things that I would just get irritated at times you know and I I do it now I have become her and uh there is there is not a single day that I don't kind of you know uh I don't think about her or I don't there was a huge huge", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-47", "text": "about her or I don't there was a huge huge fight I will keep fighting with him but then we became friends again and now I've come to this uh new idea that there was this bigger assignment that he really wanted her for and someday we are going to see her soon there's not much time to grieve isn't it in the kind of run run I so wish that I had time and I really wanted that time so I became the umbrella so I I have I have I don't like to call this uh thing as I have become the son of the family because we are we are both daughters but I took that you know Papa's place in the hospital so I was the one dealing with doctors I was the one taking care of Mama babo was there my sister was there everybody else was there but I was the one who was talking to the doctors and and like judges doctors so I would obviously you know kind of uh oh they would tell me all those things", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-48", "text": "of uh oh they would tell me all those things and it so my my sister remembers mom in so many different ways I can't get out of the ICU I'm still there so you're right you know I I wish I had time to kind of and you had to take the decision let go hmm so so there were so many decisions which which were taken and I I kind of speak to my father even today about and and I and I tell him you keep asking yourself no and he says but my thing is and I was anchoring the tenth day yeah I remember that so I PM started working the same day and you understood that I saw how you yeah and uh no matter how people talk about him but I saw him as a son that day you know a strong Sun who can't be crying in front of the public I I could relate to him you know that everybody would be looking at you how you take this I was she was my strongest pillar she she was my bestest", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-49", "text": "was my strongest pillar she she was my bestest body when she had gone and she was the one who promised me that she's going to be there so I could I could actually relate to what was happening or what would be happening when all of this happened [Music] with prime minister and I and I also started he called me when Mama was in ICU Pia Modi called you yeah and uh he spoke to Mommy and um it was 12th May she left us on 20th May so 12th May uh she went on ventilator he got to know he called me he asked me it was Eid everybody was celebrating and we were in the ICU and imagine the prime minister of the country gives you a call and he wishes you well he wishes you Eid and he says if he could speak with Mama I remember that shine in my mom's eyes that you know the prime minister of this country has called to find out if she's okay or not and I", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-50", "text": "to find out if she's okay or not and I remember she talking to him and she couldn't speak because obviously uh tubes she could hear he said and she looked at me and she said tell him that I'm very strong she was she was in the ICU ventilator like fear she's strong and she asked me to deliver this to him so I said and she'll fight she fought she fought she did not even if you are in death bed do not stop fighting keep fighting keep fighting keep struggling no matter how difficult it is just keep doing it so whenever I'm low whenever I'm whenever I think that you know why is this happening to me I just think of her I think of this hmm and uh and I'm back again with those unseen swords in my hand and I said why do you have to do this yeah yeah she's here okay yeah because um we were in touch all through I was dealing with my own grief and you know you were dealing with", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-51", "text": "own grief and you know you were dealing with that at that stage those were difficult years I think you remember I called you and I said I'm scared yeah yeah I was really scared and I remember I was standing in the corner there of the ice the room it was an isolated room because [Music] and I was standing in the corner there and I called you yeah because I didn't know what to do I couldn't have cried in front of papa I couldn't have done it to my younger sister they were all looking up to me isn't that hard rubiker to be the strong one always you know it is very hard and that is why I sometimes miss being that uh Bacha of Mama hmm yeah where uh you just you know you you just keep your head in your lap and say mama yeah so uh it gets difficult at times but I'm like huh but uh the combination not just one thing yeah but my father does it he he so so the good part is so uh he", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-52", "text": "he so so the good part is so uh he takes care of it now also hmm so uh you posted the other day a tweet which I found so interesting when you know there was a some comedy thing which was running and you said that you know um this is what my father does he he cracks jokes and sometimes I laugh and I laugh foreign [Laughter] but I would laugh just no but he exactly knows what would mean the funniest of things you know like uh tease [Laughter] and he would be I knew he knew this is a private joke that you are sharing with him at that time no those funny things I would be laughing on those he knows exactly and she would go mad and then she would give me a call back and she'll just laugh and I'll just laugh and he'll say and I would keep but cool I so you see um when I came here in the industry red lipstick Matlab entertainment key anchor seriously huh you can't look good", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-53", "text": "key anchor seriously huh you can't look good dress down huh um you are not paying attention on your beauty you are paying attention on the content content what do you mean by this why can't I be bold and intelligent at the same time intelligence so I I remember and I was the first woman in the industry is foreign [Music] foreign I used to feel the news and say it and I still do it I don't have to I can't just read and do away with it so um why will I not frown or why will I not show that I'm upset and angry I'm not saying but I I was told that behave you know kind you uh do not use a lot of your gestures when I'm talking I there are there are a lot of movements you know this came because there was a lot of movement you know let's put a big ring so people will just keep looking at the ring and they would forget that yeah so I started so people would remember me one thing when", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-54", "text": "I started so people would remember me one thing when I would stand now can I stand and tell you yeah of course okay so if a woman is standing she has to stand like this why why can't she stand like this hmm or the when the woman is sitting she has to sit like this okay I'm comfortable sitting like this fine but why can't I sit the way I want to sit you understand yeah if I'm angry and I have to say listening foreign foreign foreign people liked it that you put it out there they liked it um [Music] and I was going the other way um and that is when I realized that people want an anchor who is from them they don't want those High Priestess arnab also said this you know when I uh you know like why do you you put yourself out there he was criticized a lot for this because he was like he lives the story right lot of criticism on that story may involve as an anchor but I think he also changed the way it", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-55", "text": "anchor but I think he also changed the way it was you like it you don't like it if you don't like it don't watch it you know I see seriously believe oh Amir Khan go to the next Channel up you are lucky enough in this country that you have so many channels you don't have to watch only one channel but yeah you are feeling it you are feeling the news in fact rubika I still remember uh you know when when I was called on your show I was also told this that up Muslim debate many points see I don't like that I don't like coming on debates where they do this I'm not in I'm not a religious person I don't understand this so I don't come that and they said and I used to do rohit's show and the others you know in the channel so I said yeah you know what I mean this is this is kind of a perception is my show will never cross the you know the lakshman Rekha you pick up any of", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-56", "text": "the lakshman Rekha you pick up any of my shoes I won't let anybody disrespect my guest yeah we can fight on uh the the point that we are discussing there could be an ideological war there could be uh you know logical War uh war of opinion but it won't get personal and the moment I feel it's getting personal I'll say stop right here many people Let it Loose okay foreign that no nothing doing because I know you'll be friends after this yeah but my show you know would I don't want that dent on my show which people don't realize they see these spokespersons of various political parties that they choose the the party or the candidate so that they can fight for their rights they are fighting for them yeah no you don't need to fight for them there is an ideological fight that should be there or if there is a difference of opinion Let It Be There I have seen it in my um why would you be uh people citizen at large should understand that governments", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-57", "text": "people citizen at large should understand that governments need to fight for their rights for they have to work for their uh betterment and development you don't have to work for them foreign it's too too filled with agenda artists you think I'm going to behave like those mams who have left the place and now they say look at this no if you love this place if you have passion for journalism if you uh really want to be connected with the public with the citizens at Large this is your place and I would never say that don't be here because it's full of Filth and um things have changed no uh come here and see it for yourself because for me it's a beautiful platform where you can say what you think uh is uh needed to be changed where you can tell people that this is right and this is wrong and where you can tell the government and tell the people who are responsible that you know what if you don't do things better we are right here to hold you by your caller but", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-58", "text": "are right here to hold you by your caller but people say that Abu Freedom lots of people say that um truth to Powers people aren't doing that journalists aren't doing that anymore in India is that true I don't know why do they say this everything is here in public digital media is for example or if I go to a place where news is happening I'm not the only one who's reaching there there are 10 000 different YouTubers who are reaching there can you twist it is this the time when you can actually want to do what you want to and you can make an agenda this is not the place yeah there are people who used to do it because you know they were the only people who could reach there and who could do things today you can't do that today things are more transparent than they were ever today if you think someone is kind of trying to play up to the agenda you would figure it out right now there are different ways if I'm standing at this angle I look at", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-59", "text": "ways if I'm standing at this angle I look at this gamla a pot in a different way you are at a different angle you may see it at a different way you can use 10 different sentences to explain and I would use 10 different uh sentences but what happens is that people who like your ideology would see only your but and abuse my 10 parts people who like me would abuse you for using those 10 lines thing is there will be your filter there'll be my filter but you can't take away from the fact that there is a gambler there's a gambler You Can't Hide You can give a little bit of filtering or tinkering is what journalists with an agenda can do but the facts Q cannot hide and they know it everybody know uh every single person knows it in heart but there are that there are restrictions which are there and there's like you know the freedoms are gone it's not it's democracy at peril which card I told you victim card victim card when you", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-60", "text": "card I told you victim card victim card when you don't get anything you start playing that victim card you start saying oh we left that place because it is so much full of Filth it's better you know to start our own YouTube channel and say what you want to say or write what you want to do also it's been you are on television and you say TV mode that's another thing that I have seen because you are trying to do your journalism and say in telling people don't watch TV I can't understand that other uh aspect of some journalists who say that it's called a doctorate of doglapan um and I just look at them and I smile and I say you know uh when you would look at yourself in the mirror you would know what the truth is and what you did but interesting part is that they would look at the mirror and they say hey foreign [Music] you get that kind of arrogance I don't think you can do good journalism you can't be a good artist also", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-61", "text": "good journalism you can't be a good artist also stage frightening audience in the podcast and she was saying that before every show you need to have that little bit of nervousness oh yes oh yes you know so you're not a sensitive person and you don't have self-doubts you cannot anchor well also isn't it yeah my my heart goes boom even now when there is like uh the countdown are you ready 10 9 8 7 and I'm and and sometimes you know I'm like a shivering what will I do what will I do and the moment they say queue I get in some other Zone foreign because I'm into it and if you think uh then God bless you because I know how it feels to sit in the chair and ask questions and and say things there are people who are going to kind of you know abuse you character and one more thing I must tell you if all these people is I I want to tell them all these male anchors character assassination no male anchor you would see", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-62", "text": "anchors character assassination no male anchor you would see has gone through this character assassination but the moment she's a woman they will kind of you know link you link you and um fine but when you start looking at me as a woman who is of a bad character this you know this is something where the mothers need to enter foreign hmm this is a character assassination yeah and all my friends in the in the industry the male friends um I remember they had just you know kind of uh degraded sexually that is dehumanizing degrading I've seen that no a woman faces it yeah and my father is also on social media you think it doesn't reach my father it does reach my father but then does it affect us initially it used to now it doesn't keep doing what you want to do but you know these are some of them like I know some of the trolls I know them that they are educated they hold jobs I remember when you were in uh you were in a temple and you tripped you", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-63", "text": "you were in a temple and you tripped you know and ah and you said hello right and then then you said or something like I said Allah because I was about to fall yeah and the next moment okay and then I said because I was in Ram janmabhumi but um hello [Music] did anyone come and stop me and I kept saying Allahu Akbar is spokesperson were also there foreign that's the beauty of my country say s off to you I keep I hope that you always have the strength and and I'm pretty confident you will always have the strength to speak your heart and your mind whenever you are in front of a camera or off camera so all the best to you thank you so much it was lovely talking to you I keep asking questions but this was little different you were asking questions and keep watching podcast with Smitha prakash thank you so much thank you for watching or listening in to this podcast on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this do like and subscribe", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "5190cf719ed1-64", "text": "have seen this or heard this do like and subscribe foreign [Music]", "source": "GcSMWpKOVGk"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-0", "text": "when we talk of Modi model whatever governance model I think you would appreciate this is a model which has sustained itself for the last 20 22 years and Promises to sustain the future those who have Ruled The Roost over the years will not like India to be on the ascent and that too that fast we are 24 into 7 into 365 party we are ready for any election anytime I don't think a national conference is going with the congress party for a yatra means that they have struck a cord and if it is so then the congress party has to explain whether it is in favor of 370 or against it well I think the the kashmiri Patel Community also believe that their fortunes are not more secure with any other dispensation other than one led by BJP of course if if they are sometimes feeling little aggrieved they would obviously complain to us and they complain to us because they have expectation from us they don't complain to others because they have already tried them on", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-1", "text": "to others because they have already tried them on the park occupied Jammu Kashmir and see the comparison there they are actually lying struggling yearning praying wishing that they should be made a part of India once the doctor is always being a teacher of medicine for almost 25 years yeah before I put in my paper because the party asked me to take up an assignment everybody thought I have gone off my head I was practicing till 25th of May 2014. the day before I was phoned it I'll go back every moment when I'm not needed here foreign welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today I converse with Dr jitendra Singh who's a medical doctor by training but decided to join politics he fought an election from udhampur and Jammu and Kashmir in 2014 won that election defeating political stalwart gulam Navi Azad and then again in 2019 got re-elected he's held many portfolios in PM modi's cabinet and currently he's minister of State independent charge for", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-2", "text": "and currently he's minister of State independent charge for the ministry of Science and Technology and minister of State independent charge Ministry of earth science and minister of State for prime minister's office Personnel public grievance and pensions Department of atomic energy and Department of space Dr jitendra Singh thank you so much for coming on the podcast uh we need to tell our viewers that we are recording this on the 8th of February and the prime minister is about to speak in a short while from now so we have asked you to come win the parliament session is on and of course the entire controversy over crony capitalism and about what Rahul Gandhi has said in Parliament yesterday which is 7th of February he said all this about uh you know accusing the the BJP government uh on crony capitalism and yesterday at least on the 7th of February it seemed like the BJP was on a back foot and not able to uh defend itself very well no no certainly not quite", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-3", "text": "itself very well no no certainly not quite a contrary to that the all the allegations or insinuations uh sought to be made by the Congress and the other leaders from the opposition are quite unsubstantiated and I think everybody realizes that even on the floor of the house when the leader of opposition was speaking in the righteous about today the chairman repeatedly insisted that he should authenticate the information that he was trying to put across which he did not so they have got used to getting away by making unsubstantiated allegations whereas on the other hand BJP has very effectively put across quite a few points to prove that uh to to to to prove that what they say doesn't carry substance in the sense that taking the instance of this business house that you are referring to they were already dealing with number of congress-led governments and even in the earlier governments it's not that some something that the BJP has discovered only this government discovered it after 2014 they have already", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-4", "text": "this government discovered it after 2014 they have already been there and very actively engaged with the earlier governments and also some of the present governments in some of these states led by the congress party a b the the the kind of charges that the congress party is is is trying hard to make at the BJP LED government are are the ones which are which already stand proven against them during the 10 years of the UPA rule whether it was uh 2G 3G Commonwealth whatever so I think they are just trying to uh equalize in a vain attempt seeing that the election is drawing closer next year but I don't think this carries any weight and the the it is doesn't carry any conviction with the common people um what you're saying is that the adani group has been there even before 2014 that but that's the current is not disputing that the con that the dining group is doing business even if you if you want to put it this way that they have the they are saying that", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-5", "text": "this way that they have the they are saying that after 2014 there's a certain increase in the fortunes yeah then I think why should we ignore that the fortunes if it all have increased have been contributed even by the congress-led states Rajasthan and uh they have been equally dealing with adanis and you have abundance equally but yes they they have been there see because that is because their space is limited but it's not something that they have found Untouchable if it was so Unholy dealing with this group then why would they be dealing it's just that their scope of dealing may have been Limited so that's a different story what what the opposition is saying is and uh even in the market people talk this I'm talking about the stock market and all that for a long long time it was it's as if the adani bonds were Sovereign bonds so when foreign investors were also investing it was like okay there's no way this company will sink whether a Malia sinks or whether", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-6", "text": "company will sink whether a Malia sinks or whether anybody else sings This has the it is under the chatrachaya of the Modi government there's a protection to the adani stock so it's like a sovereign Bond so in May investors no a I would not subscribe to this this opinion that there is under chatur because the Modi government has been equal to all and fair to everybody but yes the trust of the people is one by the record of Any Given company and if they commanded a certain amount of trust that also the credit goes to them so I think all the more reason that we should trust their their rise of Fortunes the heidenberg report came in it's now almost what a couple of weeks since it's been there it's made so much of noise in Parliament also the prime minister is going to speak in a few hours from now but somehow the the defense by the government seems to be muted it's as if the the BJP and the BJP government the party as", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-7", "text": "the BJP and the BJP government the party as well as the government is aware that the closeness that the adani group has with the BJP and the stupendous rise of this group uh is something that it is embarrassing absolutely that is the perception absolutely not this is a perception which possibly has also affected you but having said that the Maybe BJP is a party both as in the in the in the in the Carter as well as in the government follows a certain amount of discipline and doesn't start making noises without substance to which maybe a congress party or TMC are known for and therefore it it looks like that but the common people are very certain even if you uh take the opinion of the stock market commentators they are the firm view that this is just a passing phase and they do not subscribe to the kind of perception that you are referring to yeah yeah I get that that you what you're saying is that whenever something like this happens everybody sees the", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-8", "text": "whenever something like this happens everybody sees the stock market as an indicator about confidence in a particular industrial group or if there is no confidence nobody will put in the money but you can't deny that there seems to be some kind of a nervousness which is why you saw flight of capital also to some extent now perception is important uh the the Congress government if you remember before 2014 uh the Prime Minister himself at that stage said that the perception of crony capitalism was was something that they could do nothing about no I think only on the contrary it is the this government which has cleared all the air as far as the crony capitalism is concerned so it's not that easy to paint it with the same brush yes because uh there is a lot uh that the the the BJP party and the government has been talking about the antyodaya that this is a this is a party and a government which will work at the state and at uh Center towards uh providing for", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-9", "text": "state and at uh Center towards uh providing for the last man or the last woman at in the row so the entire build up has been but allegations of crony capitalism can damage that no but uh where is the allocation it's only allegation from the from some some quarters in the media and and some vested interest to whom it suits otherwise on the contrary if you go by the record of the eight years I think the performance of this government in the last eight years far surpasses that of the earlier seven decades whether you take a development wise whether you take it governance wise whether you take as you said reaching out to the Last Mile and even if you take the figures this is a tremendous and new areas have been opened up which where his hotel closed like for example space now we are ahead of all virtually every other country in the world and we started off our space only 75 years ago when uh America was on and Soviet Union was on the verge of landing on", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-10", "text": "Soviet Union was on the verge of landing on the surface of moon and look over here we are today we are launching their satellites and and earning Revenue out of it which was something which was unimaginable and now I think a good analyst like you or somebody wanted to think why this couldn't have happened 75 70 years ago or 60 years ago we have the pictures of sarabhai carrying a launcher on the The Carriage of his bicycle is no longer so there's so much of esteem to the kind of our Global Innovation index we have jumped 40 places from 81 to 41. this is not a small River I mean all these are reflections for economy to which of course the business houses are also a part of right whether you the one you name or the others Global Innovation running 40 we our economy is now number five we have taken over UK is that not a matter of Pride for any common citizen of India that we have taken over a country which ruled over us for two", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-11", "text": "taken over a country which ruled over us for two decades two centuries we are now ahead of them our startup ecosystem so ending number three in the world and where were we before 2014 we just had about 350 stock startups in India today it is almost ninety thousand we have more than 100 unicorns and you know our startups are now looked up to both domestically abroad so I think there's a whole lot of parameters which indicate otherwise and other things I think one other unspoken fact not often discussed is which is quite in contrast with the earlier governments is that the entire work culture has changed which has also changed the narrative The Narrative built by this government in the last eight years so strong so strong that are three days of gossip about all these things cannot you know falsify it if you talk of one today the gas cylinders have reached almost uh 11 crore households and when I see the change of culture which has created a strong narrative is that the lists were", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-12", "text": "created a strong narrative is that the lists were prepared of the needy families nobody asked where did you come from what was your religion Hindu or Muslim or a Brahman or a thakur they didn't even ask whether you had voted for BJP the last week they didn't even insist that you vote for BJP in the next election so in the entire discourse and the entire culture is undergradology about ten thousand uh or almost equal number if it was 10 crore gasoline is about 11 to 12 crore of toilets built toilet built in every household which required and the Prime Minister speaking audit from the rampers the Red Fort so the work culture the work style and also the political culture has entirely undergone a change it's not it's not looking it's not vote Centric or voter Centric it's rather citizen Centric and that that itself is what gives a tremendous amount of trust in Prime Minister Modi it's not easy to not to not to believe what", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-13", "text": "not easy to not to not to believe what he says now if he says you clap for kobit you start clapping even you did if you asked to light a Diya you do that you are asked to stay home and observe a home a civil uh locked out you do that that's because he has over the years with the kind of sincerity commitment earn that kind of trust which can't be easily so you are you've listed out some of the schemes which when you go in for elections in the state elections we saw this happening uh last year all the state elections you were talking about this and um and in the in the 2019 elections also uh when the rafalcon thing started with the Congress he Rahul Gandhi put that as their lead motive you know he went to the thing that yahape corruption and because of that the BJP is going to lose it didn't work when the state elections happened last year one saw that the whole labharti voters the ones", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-14", "text": "saw that the whole labharti voters the ones who benefited from the schemes which you just talked about they are the ones who voted for you now it seems that of going in into the state elections this year Nine States going into polls the the Congress is going to make this which is crony capitalism as their lead motive how do you see this state elections a you cannot uh I have nobody to decide what will be the Congress Manifesto be they have been on to it as you yourself said they used Raphael and where did they end up only the other day prime minister was there in Bengaluru NHL yes so you I think the Vindication is so abundant the hardly needs to be and and the the the the matter is also settled with enough evidence to disprove what yeah so I think we don't know that's precisely it didn't work so it will not work it will not work because people trust Modi people trust the the the the sincerity commitment with this", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-15", "text": "trust the the the the sincerity commitment with this with which the government led by Prime Minister Modi has worked so they are not going to be taken out by these manufactured lies these are manufactured perceptions which don't work any longer it might have worked 20 years ago because sometimes I feel that the congress party is still playing the the tricks of the last election while the voter has moved on water is no longer taken in by the by all this rhetoric which might have worked for them when Mrs Gandhi said greeby Hotel and then at one time they said so all these things don't work now you have to walk the talk and Prime Minister Modi has walked the talk and he's walked the talk so evidently abundantly that people uh have seen it happening and therefore uh I I think because the ultimate objective of uh modi's work culture is to bring ease of living ah to every section of society and to raise them to the same level so I think that is what gives", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-16", "text": "the same level so I think that is what gives him the kind of uh sustainers you know here is when we talk of Modi model whatever governance model I think you would appreciate this is a model which has sustained itself for the last 20 22 years and Promises to sustain the future so this is a sustainable model we talk of sustainable goals these days right from you and you know so this is here is a sustainable model of governance which defies the principle of diminishing returns any government whichever it be after one term two terms the graph starts coming down here is going up it's going up not because of Any rhetoric is going up because the hard uh work done which translated into real good for the benefit of the Common Man in this country and and now talking of the elections as you said these two three states do you think it will work in Northeast for example we have three states going to the polls yeah you have to see to believe the miraculous transformation", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-17", "text": "have to see to believe the miraculous transformation which has happened in Northeast yeah yeah I've been there for over 70 years or so that was one of the assignments you see when we went into uh Northeast in 2014 when this government came in there were at least three states in the in the region which had never seen a train you know for example so that reminded me of my village where you know people would uh they would they would pass away without having seen a motor car because just a bus came from the city and the train was of course unheard of it also because of the terrain has been restrained no not only trade territory of course is is there but train is same now also the the natural terrain the geographical terrain has not changed after 2014. God did not come down to change the geographical profile of North the kind of prioritization and you know why because the earlier governments followed a policy of vote centricity Prime Minister Modi did not he can you imagine he has", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-18", "text": "Modi did not he can you imagine he has visited Northeast even in his first term as many as 55 times 55 tries to win the conference of people to make them realize that to him they are as important as people in any other state of the country and I think that 55 must be more than the number of times all the preceding Prime Ministers together would have visited Northeast now we have trained ice ice referred to here arunachal today we have arunachal express running from itanagar to Delhi we have every state capital with an airport earlier we didn't have second didn't have an airport one of the most favored tourist destinations still not connected through air similarly shillong being the capital of the earth while state of Saab did not have a proper Airport when you landed in guwahati and people tourists wanted to go to meghalaya the Communist demand in 2014 was that they should increase they should increase the number of commercial helicopter flights for them now it's the other way around the", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-19", "text": "for them now it's the other way around the helicopter is available people prefer going by Road you know it's such a beautiful picturesque Journey so this miraculous transformation has has been possible because of extreme prioritization coupled with lot of hard work which is underground So Not only was he traveling he was also insisting every Minister should go there now I'll tell you one example when I was referring to the change of culture which has actually struck the card with the common people in this country I think about five years back Israel came up with an offer that they have a specialized area of food-centric parts now we have food Parks over here they they are now coming up with you know they were of course now India also but they were the first to come with specialized food Parks like for example citric fruit Park mango foodpa so they said they have the technology to set up a citric center of excellence Mr Cameron was the Ambassador over here so I asked him where best it could happen", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-20", "text": "so I asked him where best it could happen he said mizoram and this government did not take a minute for the last five years we have center of excellence in citric fruits in mizoram now mizoram is a is a state which returns one MP to Lok Sabha just one MP and the and the government is different party BJP doesn't have much of stake from that point of view in spite of that in spite of that so wherever what was required and was justified was done I mean this is quite unlikely culture which was being followed by the other earlier governments because they would not have looked the other way out the no stake you know in a in a place with just about if you mean electorally literally this government has actually or Modi I would say has actually changed that culture sought to move in the direction which is different from the earlier culture and that is what gives the kind of trust and belief in the minds of the people which does not allow these", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-21", "text": "the minds of the people which does not allow these manufactured perceptions to take root so in mainstreaming of Northeast India now there are eight states mainstreaming of this yes you see I the other day only yesterday four yesterday I was in meghalaya and I was telling them that Modi has transformed this region from a terror tag to a development model the development model of Northeast is being cited all over the country now whereas in 2014 when we would travel into by Road in the highway there there would be gunshots from the hilltops you know the terrorists and the militants trying to make their presence felt they look here we are allowing the YouTube We are giving you a safe passage but don't ever think that we are not there it's no longer like that now Manipur we used to have a Road blockage for four months five months shortage of baby food shortage of eatables I I'm sure the present generation would not be able to recall also what was the scene like that yes since", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-22", "text": "recall also what was the scene like that yes since we were talking about militancy and blockades and all that of course I'm going to come to your home state uh Union territory now cabulu I don't know what to call it now uh hopefully status won't change so soon but then uh everybody in Jammu and Kashmir seems to be wondering when is statehood coming back so could you give us a little bit about the framework I don't think I would be elaborating much on that because the home minister Mr Misha has already retreated more than once on the floor of the house in the parliament also outside that it would be reverted back to the state at an appropriate time so I think it will not be appropriate for me to add to what all right he's already been said especially because Parliament is on right now uh so I also want to ask you that you know elections however flawed have been held uh even if there wasn't enough representations that one would like uh elections to have", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-23", "text": "representations that one would like uh elections to have in 2008 they were held in 2000 and no 2002 8 and 14 if I'm not mistaken when are they going to be held because what the election commissioner is saying seeing the security and things like that no I think again again this question is also uh a region of the mindset which has got used to working in the congress-led governments for over half a century because we do not control the election commission of India so you wouldn't have been asking me of course I would because elections no elections Election Commission yeah is an independent body and they are free to decide depending on the various inputs certainly the input has to come in about security from the government only is again the election commission of India has the last word this is supposed to be and we this government does not interfere with the working of Election Commission the limitation is over so which means I think the chief election and commissioner would be the right person to be asked", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-24", "text": "commissioner would be the right person to be asked this question I can we ask only if as far as my party is concerned as a BJP as a BJP character you can say we are 24 into 7 into 365 party we are ready for any election anytime be it the local body the panchayat the Zilla parisha the State Assembly the Lok Sabha and anywhere you you would have seen us we are always in that mode always in an election mode no I know it's not that we follow a work culture which includes our our Indulgence even in elections as it does in our other work the social activity the public entry it's not that we become active and start visiting temples at the time of election it's not like that we are as I said we follow a routine 24 into seven if you are going to Temple going every day if you are working for election we are always working regardless of the election is happening or not so we we are ready now of course the last word has", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-25", "text": "we are ready now of course the last word has to come from the election commission you won two elections uh you know from Jammu Kashmir State now uh what do you have to say to the huge crowds that were coming in for Rahul Gandhi uh in your state in in no uh yeah in the Jammu region you pointed out there two elections and I I think just to at the risk of being boisterous I would have the second election is the highest ever margin in anything that was another big one the second time was Mr Vikram yeah but the second election so you have been Dragon Slayers but incidentally I think again the credit goes to prime minister modi's uh you know pushed to the development agenda which we have also sought we have we have tried to successfully carry forward my constituencies possibility the only constituency of the Lok Sabha which got not one not two but three Central sponsored medical colleges two passport office so like that I mean such a huge path breaking developmental", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-26", "text": "like that I mean such a huge path breaking developmental National level approaches the first ever River Rejuvenation project on the lines of Ganga happened in devika River so all that I think the credit would again go to the kind of patronage that we received from the present government without any kind of a discrimination which was possibly happening at the regional level by the earlier governments but having said that um you know as far as the crowd that you mentioned I don't think this is a crowd which actually carries any it's like it it doesn't carry any Moss any weightage for the simple reason if you if you identify the faces who are coming they're all disgruntled faces half of them didn't find a place in BJP half of them agree with the congress party half of them retired officials didn't find any Rehabilitation so wherever he went they were joining us so it's not a very meaningful to start uh people who are walking along with Rahul Ghana but other than there were", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-27", "text": "along with Rahul Ghana but other than there were hardly any districts no there's some disgruntled congressmen yeah certainly but they not that suddenly they will vote for them I'm sure it's good that you pointed to that many of them who completed would also not vote for congress that's all it's just that they thought Ana is covering us so it's a good opportunity okay and I can actually name some of them which I would not tell me uh it was quite surprising to see that Farooq Abdullah um they all joined the yatra how come this yatra United people who never shared a platform for a long time no it's not that I mean National Conference is known to strike alliances both ways they are parted ways in BJP with Congress also they have been doing so um but then uh you saw the kind of warmth that uh that the abdullahs and mehbooba given the kind of context it happens so I don't think National Conference going with the congress party uh for a", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-28", "text": "National Conference going with the congress party uh for a yatra means that they have struck a cord which is going to last long or other way around and if it is so then the congress party has to explain whether it is in favor of 370 or against it or three congress party has so far very managed a very inconvenient silence even when this yatra was going on they never did speak about it whether they should they they would bring back 370 you've given a choice or whether they support the abrogation whereas the national conference is openly opposing it yeah so there are not much of contradiction amongst themselves also but could they go for an election in case of forming an alliance do you see at any point of time as a as a politician from the state do you see any alliances coming up while keeping this contentious issue on the side on the background I think I think that will be that will be too early to actually draw any surprises because that will happen once the results come out", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-29", "text": "because that will happen once the results come out and whenever the election happens so I don't think but you can see some kind of a political activity increasing in uh in Kashmir uh suddenly the press conferences have begun and on 370 I think that's also because you see that again the credit goes to BJP and the modulated government because the milieu is now such you can have so much of political activity see for the first time the district council elections were held after 70 years I think that's also something to be answered why we could not have Zilla parishes in Jammu and Kashmir for several long decades when we had in every other state and this is these the party which you are referring to they are the ones which were raising the bogey or the slogan of a autonomy be self-ruled now what is self rule to my understanding self-ruly the rule of the self rule which emanates from the ground this has to be rule of the company that's a different interpretation so", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-30", "text": "rule of the company that's a different interpretation so this is so then in that case if that is different then this interpretation would mean rule of mine my family so so what I'm trying to say is so now the Modi government has created a milieu where there is uh there's Outlets available for expression of your Democratic aspirations a b the security scenario has also undergone a change you don't no longer have stone pelting as you so often had had earlier you don't have those Robin Hood Type terrorists now if you hear a new name in the world of terrorism you've been reporting every now and then in three days four days you find the eliminated Eliminator liquidated so that has created a milieu where you could indulge in activity be where you could Aspire for the Democratic activity so I think the credit for this activity which you are saying on the rise I would instead of giving credit to the these opposition parties I would rather give credit to Prime Minister Modi who has created such a", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-31", "text": "to Prime Minister Modi who has created such a milieu that they can come out so you know uh if you are saying that there is so much of positivity in the state in in Jammu or in Kashmir region if there is so much of positivity and peace which has come in elimination of terrorism that you're talking about why is it that the pundits are not able to return to their homes and relocate in the numbers that we expected it to happen no I think the process is going on to begin with just about six thousand jobs or whatever given and I believe only yesterday I was being told that more than half of them have already joined back of course unfortunately Target killing happens which obviously had to create a fear psychosis which it did and which you can't deny because the loss of human life anywhere and from any section of society can't be redeemed and there can't be any compensation for that so there had to be an initial uh reaction or response to that but", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-32", "text": "be an initial uh reaction or response to that but now gradually they are feeling because they know at the end of the day that their fortunes are not more secure with any other dispensation other than one led by BJP or Prime Minister Modi and this has been again proven by our track record but I was saying a few moments ago in the times of perceptions not simply perception it's been it's been walk the talk like you know in 1990 when their Mass Exodus happened we were not in for in government in most of these states we were not in government at the center at that point or in time also our leaders came forth to give them shelter to help them rehabilitate we we also struggled and created a education avenues for them in the higher education colleges schools in Maharashtra wherever for example if we had a friendly party there in power we managed to persuade them in madhya Pradesh like that so it was even at that time even when we did not have the strings", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-33", "text": "that time even when we did not have the strings of Power with us so I think the the kashmiri Patel Community also believes of course if if they are sometimes feeling little aggrieved they would obviously complain to us at the company it was because they have expectation from us they don't complain to others because they have already tried them so that I agree that they the expectations are from your party and only your party nobody else and that is why there is also this sense that absolutely absolutely and I think they are welcome to think like that and in the past in the present the future it's been BJP which will stand by them which has stood by them which is standing by them which will always stand by them but as I said now if if an incident happens which you know disturbs the entire milieu and which is obviously going to create a fear psychosis you cannot actually that sometimes you create some kind of a ripple which has been successfully got over now and gradually they are coming", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-34", "text": "been successfully got over now and gradually they are coming around so non-bjp parties are saying uh parties can there are only two now there in the State uh they are saying that you're trying to impose in the state a reimagined past that you especially you uh talk about uh talk about a past and talk about a future which is not which is not reality you want to bring in a new reality so how do you say what do you respond to somebody who says that yay this was not the reality ever in Kashmir and this is not going to be the reality in future see if you take it by the literal sense reality is reality it can't be new or old what is real what is there is real now what is new reality and what is old Realty old reality is possibly reality they are referring to which suits them the accession of the state I'm telling you that's what they talked about that that you believe so maybe for them the reality is that for", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-35", "text": "so maybe for them the reality is that for 30 years there was a wheel of fear ten percent voter turnout they would get elected as legislators their MPS form governments one after the other from generation to generation and that was a fine there's a comfortable reality for them because for three generations they could flourish in that reality so the change of that reality doesn't suit them the new reality is of course different new reality is the reality which is prevailing in the rest of India and why not why not is being a part of India even in those days whenever somebody said Kashmir issue I for one for almost three decades have been saying that there's no there was no issues such as Kashmir issues it was just manufactured because we kept debating about it even then as much a part of a state of India as any other state so new reality is something which doesn't suit them a secondly now that we have a democratic Grassroots set up over there we have people", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-36", "text": "democratic Grassroots set up over there we have people coming out I think there's nothing wrong if this is the reality which I should have happened the third now reality of Kashmir as you mentioned certainly if that means what they refer to as kashmiriyat now can you ever justify Kashmir in the absence of a kashmiri Pandit because Kashmir from that point of view would be representing a composite culture where you have a mix of both the religions both the Traditions the Sufism but with the kashmiri Pandit having been thrown out for the last three decades and the two generations of Muslims having grown up in in a different kind of an atmosphere where does that culture exist so in fact now with the return of kashmiri pundas with the return of the democratic order with the expression of democratic aspiration from the ground I would rather say that this is actually the reality which for which Jammu Kashmir sought to become a part of Indian Union and and", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-37", "text": "to become a part of Indian Union and and Maharaja harishing the then Maharaja signed the instrumental recession to be a part of India so forgive me for saying this but every time I speak to people from the state I mean this the term kashmiriat you speak about Kashmir to anybody outside of Jammu Kashmir the only thing they know and I'm telling you you know the youth those who have only seen Bloodshed they're saying the only Kashmir that rest of India has seen is just Bloodshed so when you hear politicians talk about the good old era of uh you know of kashmiriat where they talk about being a disputed State and all it angers Indians let me tell you this people say yes the same as punjabiat gun culture is what you remember there's a reason to that because the entire generation rather generation half has grown up under gun culture over the last three and a half decades so obviously they have no other Legacy no other memory those who are in their teens", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-38", "text": "Legacy no other memory those who are in their teens now or even there see those who migrated out as youth are now Elder citizens many of them around many of them not those who are Elder then are no longer around so what the presentation so all the more reason that the same culture and the same social milieu needs to be restored and if it is happening in a gradual way I don't find anything wrong in that so happening in a gradual way is what irritates most of India so that is the question that the congress party has to answer why this temporary provision which they themselves are the biggest greatest protagonist of temporary provision was the congress party in fact during the one of the debates in the Constitutions assembly with Dr Sava Prasad Mukherjee suggested that there could be a rethinking about including article 370 it was none less than the then prime minister then then prime minister nehru is already prime minister as part of the interim government who suggested okay Dr", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-39", "text": "part of the interim government who suggested okay Dr Mukherjee don't get worried and not only the address in writing in the bracket when they're very provision now ask Congress is the question that you are asking me should be asked to the successive Congress governments why they dragged on this temporary provision for seven decades because now I'll tell you why because they also at that point in time knew that if it was temporary it has to be temporary but over a period of time this temporary provision became a vested interest for them they thought carrying on with the perception of making Jammu Kashmir appear as separate from rest of India so-called special status so-called would actually was actually helping them they were operating in a limited space The Limited vote Bank can you imagine uh the the Pakistani refugees they did not have their voting rights for 70 years till Prime Minister Modi came in whereas two from the same general went on to become Prime Ministers of India Dr Marmon Singh I", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-40", "text": "Prime Ministers of India Dr Marmon Singh I sometimes shudder to think what would have been their fate if they had gone and settled in Jamal Kashmir yeah the destiny would have deprived them of the Privileges they would have been denied the destined privilege of becoming Prime Ministers yeah they would have never they would have lost that the what what was written in their horoscope If Only They had made the mistake of going and settling down ninja because you see this was all part of Punjab the ferozepur and Amritsar and then pathankot gurdaspur was the district through which the this line was drawn uh uh when the partition happened so many of them went this side when those events that said were deprived of their so I think now that if there were the states in Parliament now those who say now those who say that we want to have that and we are that's because they are comfortable with that kind of a separatist perception uh while being in mainstream they they", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-41", "text": "perception uh while being in mainstream they they try to function as so-called mainstream political party but certainly deprived Drive the benefits of a separatist perception so that is what sources that's why I said the new reality is the reality which should have happened in Germany I'm going to come to the new reality but old reality a new reality I don't know whether you heard um uh the former uh advisor to vajpai ji uh Mr dulath had said that at one point of time the NSA um when he wasn't NSA uh Mr doble had told him that up advani ji said if you just speak and he said I was on the other side of the Divide which meant that there was a divide in the BJP government at that at that time that other side is a divided so there was a divide and he was advisor to the Prime Minister on Jammu Kashmir but that was not important enough but the divide in the BJP at that time was important today where", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-42", "text": "in the BJP at that time was important today where are we no no let me first his father do heavy any reason to take what Mr the Lord says as a gospel truth a b I think it's hardly worth discussing many of these uh former diplomats and bureaucrats when they have nothing else left no stick left the result of writing books which can create outrageous uh you know some kind of an opinions and give some kind of attention both to them as well as the the books that they sometimes right and I having been and dealing with the civil services I have also formed an opinion that still 60 there is a retirement age 60 to 65 is a window when they look for getting membership in some commission some board after 65 and there's no straight left then they become nationalists they become realists then they start donating all these stories so is it now can you is this the propriety of a former to make such kind of statements if at all it happened that itself means that he", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-43", "text": "at all it happened that itself means that he was not equal to the job that he was holding at that point right so I think it hardly needs to be discussed we we don't need to get into uh discussing what is being said by Mr Abdullah and not we have any reason to believe or disbelieve it okay uh so let me come to the present then because uh you know just this week uh both Omar Abdullah and mehbooba Mufti while you might feel that they are inconsequential but they are in the sense that they are leading the narrative as far as the opposition is concerned in the state now they are both saying that there is a there is fear among people bulldozer and uh even in important places important in the sense which was considered important in Srinagar that bulldozers are going and poor people's homes are going to be destroyed without them getting notice about it no I think this issue has been uh under discussion of the last few days but", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-44", "text": "been uh under discussion of the last few days but I believe the lieutenant governor has sought to convey to them and also assure them that it is only those who have encroached with the misuse of Authority or power who are going to face this and not a commoner who's there otherwise so I think uh maybe if they have encroached upon illegally or illegitimately they have something to fear but let's trust what the lieutenant governor says that those who have not misused their position for this would not be brought to harm so and I'm going to quote her she says earlier we used to think that BJP has taken a cue from what Israel was doing in Palestine but now they have turned it worse than Palestine they want to make jnk like Afghanistan she's talking about without asking or without going by rule of law it's like the BJP is doing exactly what they want via the administration no I don't think that even doesn't even deserve a response I mean these", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-45", "text": "even doesn't even deserve a response I mean these are off head hand statements made without substantial teaching and we live in an era of evidence like she's saying her daughter's passport is also not coming through oh no there's so many other things now for the first time the the some decisive action has been initiated in the valley against both the terrorists and the perpetrators of terrorists what we were talking just a few months ago that Italian doesn't survive more than three days is just because of that which is no longer any kind of support or or or or a direct or indirect pattern is being offered by the so-called mainstream parties which are actually protected them at patronizing them so I think that is what is making uh them pinch so I also is it possible that you know like for example there was just uh I think this week itself was Kashmir solidarity day uh you know Pakistan observes that but it was very muted uh is it because many of the separatists in", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-46", "text": "uh is it because many of the separatists in in Jammu Kashmir now get no support either financially or militarily or you know in any other yes those channels have been blocked because the so-called these mainstream political parties when they were in power were possibly not sincere to the extent they were expected to be or they were acting to the extent they were expected to be and secondly if you go by this Palestine and Afghanistan and what what blah blah you would rather I would appreciate someday you would create some kind of a feature on the park occupied Jammu Kashmir and see the comparison there they are actually vying struggling yearning praying wishing that they should be made a part of India so more than India is a part of India it is there people living over there who are clamoring for this because the kind of you know unfair treatment and the inhuman conditions they have been made to live in so uh for the benefit of our audience I have done a lot of reporting", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-47", "text": "our audience I have done a lot of reporting but for our benefit of audience could you just explain a little bit about uh about Park occupied Kashmir and about Kashmir and the difference between the two and what is how uh what happened and where is what is India's position on this in a in a Christmas no I I agree you see this was there were a series of [Music] I said Congress actually missed it the opportunity in Kashmir which cannot be Redeemed by these yatras so yatra would be another one more addition to the misdoings so this kind of experimentation which the successive governments kept doing with regard to Germany I think the first to my mind if he was because I've been you know dealing with this subject and also researching studying it over the several decades the the the the the first step towards you know this uh wrongdoing happen with the with the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir not being allowed to be handled by the Home Ministry then", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-48", "text": "being allowed to be handled by the Home Ministry then home Ministry so the management Sardar Patel was handling all the other 560 princely States was not something which actually fed into his domain because the Prime Minister himself because panditji thought that he knew Jammu Kashmir better than others because he was from the state foreigners abroad who are not aware of the complexities of it yeah he was the Prime Minister first prime minister of India was from Jammu and he was a kashmiri pundit yeah but elected from uh uttar Pradesh yeah elected from up because the family had got their settled down there so he thought it is better so in a way you know then so he also did personal preferences there preference for Sheikh Abdullah and then the kind of perception that you know the prince here Maharaja Hari Singh was not in keep keeping with the compatibility because there was a lot of mistrust between the Prime Minister and Maharaja Hari Singh and uh then there was a", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-49", "text": "Hari Singh and uh then there was a delay in you know accession uh also because uh the then prime minister nehru was Keen that Sheikh Abdullah should be first handed over the power which was quite unfair family politics was not required because the instrument accession which had been drafted by Lord mountbatten simply asked for which preference Pakistan India is only two and Maharaja Hari Singh was clearly in favor of India but son somehow the Prime Minister himself said that someday we might have a referendum which was not required so it was an absolutely uncalled for statement by prime minister then stuck yeah we stuck to the prime minister's office of that time stuck to government and then there were Clauses to that referendum statement but Pakistan kind of yes you're right then it was used in different ways it could not have been it could have been avoided you know everything is not always taken in the same vein as it is said then going to Uno again yeah yeah at the behest", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-50", "text": "then going to Uno again yeah yeah at the behest of prime minister was not right in the sense that again it's created narrative as you're saying we suited others because and because no other in case of no other princely state we did we go not even in case of Hyderabad we didn't where you had a police action uh by the Home Ministry so thirdly then War Began When The War Began uh or their sponsored Warriors had already entered into we're talking about 47 now yeah some territory yeah October in program they already entered into some part of Jammu and Kashmir uh which where they were you know trying to capture it but then when the Indian army landed there they started throwing them out and they had to a great extent succeeded when again prime minister unilaterally declared a ceasefire I mean had he not done so and delayed it for another two three days maybe we didn't we would not have this park you were not gone in that but your family must have known about this", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-51", "text": "in that but your family must have known about this so then that that part of territory which was lost because instantly the suddenly the ceasefire happened so that part went to their occupation if it had not been announced and uh ironically prime minister nehru did not consult many on that I mean he just made a radio broadcasting so all these things happening and then successive governments Mrs Gandhi came in 1975 bringing back Sheikh Abdullah which was again had a very divided opinion across the country whether to have it not but then possibly Mrs Gandhi thought that this regime would not last long and he had the smartness to handle it but you know uh the importables happen in history this is 1983 and Mrs Gandhi was assassinated in 1984 just a few months later yes or hardly a year later so that and then the subsequent regimes and botched up elections and subsequent years in 1987 election so then it became a vested interest to keep the pot boiling so all", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-52", "text": "vested interest to keep the pot boiling so all these things happening in a manner and then West Pakistan which of course was then West Pakistan or Pakistan refugees many of them here like ik Gujarat one more thing all these people who made a mark for this even journalism and all those people they went there and uh you know they were deprived of their rights so and just because there was again a vested interest not to allow them to vote because the these parties were not confident whether they would be able to secure there so all these uh these management and mess over the years I think what began as a mismanagement and wrongful experimentation ended up in a vested interest to continue it in the manner it was going because it's then began to serve the purpose of a handful of people a handful of families okay so now let me before I know you have to go back to Parliament so let me quickly bring two issues which uh before we wind up one is your current assignments uh you", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-53", "text": "we wind up one is your current assignments uh you have like this plethora of portfolios so give me a little background about that what is it that are your goals and how much have you achieved in the past uh since you got those portfolios and by 2024 what are your goals no I think of the many departments that I've associated with one of course is the governance the department of personal and that is the Hallmark of prime minister modi's work style he had brought in a number of reforms uh Wireless chief minister and even now and I think the Paradox is that instead of bringing new rules this government is known to do away with the earlier rules so we have already done away with as many as 1600 odd rules which had lost relevance with the 1600 rules yes done away with okay you know each government each officer post retirement each Democratic electric Government after having completed terms takes pride in narrating stories to other local my time here is a government which would have to say and you will", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-54", "text": "a government which would have to say and you will be amused within three months of this government have been coming we were sworn in on the 26th of May 2014. in September or October we did away with that dubious rule which was a legacy of the British Empire of getting these certificates attested officers so and and I think we we sent out a message they look here now this is a new government headed by Prime Minister Modi which has the capacity to trust the Youth of this country and I sometimes wonder this rule should have been done away right at the the midnight of Freedom why why wasn't it because this was a rule because the British treated us as their character certificate yeah treated us as their subjects as a colony subject so and then of course for Level Playing Field the the interview practice of conducting interviews lower posts yes so many uh rules which test or something was or the other one yes yes yes we did now even in the staff selection commission we are going to have 12", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-55", "text": "the staff selection commission we are going to have 12 languages to begin with I hope we'll go to 22 all these situations only English Hindi so we try to create a Level Playing Field for every youth regardless of his background his socioeconomics data many of the reforms which have any of the rules which have been done with not often talked about because they don't make news for example but yeah from uh yes but from the point of views the social angle is very important like for example there was a pension rule that a separated daughter cannot claim the family pension of her diseased parent unless she produces a court judgment of having secured a divorce we did away with that and as an Evidence only if she has five meditation the receipt of having filed the petition is good enough similarly there was another pension rule that unless a government employee completes at least 10 years of service and if he dies in harness even before 10 years his family can't claim eventually so I said what is it I", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-56", "text": "claim eventually so I said what is it I mean you didn't ask him that he should hold on for 10 years to allow his family so if you didn't give any choice of choosing the timing of his death how can you deprive so he did away with that there are still some rules like you have to provide Proof of Life yes absolutely which was very inhuman and so what we did when we when we you know sought to undo it to my mind was to do away with all together but then some of the bankers came to me and they said they have been instances whether it's been misused okay you know some characters use the signed checkbooks of their parents and got away so you have all kinds of people in this Society so then I thought okay let's use technology so we started digital certificate which means you use biometry from home even on your mobile and now that the lifespan of an average Indian is on the increase we have more number of pensioners in India today than the number of", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-57", "text": "of pensioners in India today than the number of working employees which was the other way around at the time of day so and the people are living beyond 80 we are 90. there's a sizeable population of pensioners Above 90. So after 70 or 80 even the finger marks starts under Ouija so I think we were the first in the government to have introduced a faced recognition technology okay the gentleman or the gentle lady just looks into the mobile camera and uh the photograph is taken uh it it gets connected with the aadhaar number for verification and then gets immediately transmitted to the concerned bank and all this happened just in 60 seconds okay so this is like the digi yatra I think one of the Hallmarks of prime minister modi's rule has been that technology has been used very optimally which is the ease of living ease of living ease of governance and I think one of the good outcomes of that was that when pandemic struck all of a sudden nobody was privileged it", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-58", "text": "struck all of a sudden nobody was privileged it the working in the government of India offices did not get interrupted at all in fact sometimes you were working more so one of the uni officers told me the new mantra should be minimum attendance maximum output because many people were working from home working even on Saturdays and Sundays so yeah Earth Sciences which you uh which is commanded these new fangled names which confuse people no I'm glad you asked it because this is something really close to my heart and I think I we must thank Prime Minister Modi he spoke about it twice in his Independence Day address for the deep sea Mission which is uh being spearheaded by this ministry in 2021 independency and 2022 whereas I was either way in a lighter way in telling my officers in the administration I said there was a time if you did a survey and asked people in Delhi where on Earth is the office of the ministry of Earth Sciences nobody would be able to tell but", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-59", "text": "Earth Sciences nobody would be able to tell but suddenly this is game currency because I believe that when prime minister talks of Amrit Khal in the next 25 years which are going to raise India to an to a different level I think the entire value Edition is going to come from the sources which have remained unexclored and one of them is the ocean resources we never realized that the earlier governments didn't pay any heat to this fact that we have the longest possible costly about 7 500 kilometer and I was telling the friends from Australia the other day I said you come from a country which is Australia an island which is Australia continent which is but your ocean is not an Australian ocean we have an Indian Ocean and then I said because my ancestors were smart enough to realize a huge amount of wealth lying inside and I I can foresee in the next five seven years all the minerals biodiversity living and non-living you know resources richness inside the Indian seabeds is going", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-60", "text": "know resources richness inside the Indian seabeds is going to add value to Indian economy because all the other resources would have been and the second would be of the Himalayan resource the aroma which we have already started Aroma Mission and purple Revolution so this deep sea mission is what the earth science is carrying forward we've already launched samundarian from Chennai which is exploring the sea properties and I think in next two three years almost same soon after the gaganyan goes up a human Indian into the space and an Indian into the sea we are planning we have about 5000 meter seabed the deepest so we we we plan to have one okay a human being going down visually you know doing a Reiki there okay to discover what all is there so this is going to be a huge resource of economy in the times to uh come right so earlier in the uh when we started uh speaking you were talking about uh you know setting up universities and things in Jammu uh not many people would", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-61", "text": "and things in Jammu uh not many people would know that when you went to study medicine you went all the way uh to Tamil Nadu to study medicine I mean a lot of people from your state have been doing that because of the lack of opportunities uh and now they wouldn't need to yeah I think there were other reasons also because in my times and my generation we didn't have the concept of private medical colleges and the government sector uh of course you're right the fire and few in fact at the time of Independence there was only one college degree College entire North India there's Lahore foreign there was no accessibility so they were on those VA honors in English Okay so Mr kushwant Singh from there Mr Sani from there so only one degree College entire North India and one Medical College which is even today King Edward Lahore so after that you know we had Medical College Amritsar then much later Siri nagar so after partition you're right a there were not much of this thing and", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-62", "text": "right a there were not much of this thing and the quality education institutions were there in the South because uh the British came this way from East the East India Company first landed in Calcutta so first University Calcutta first Presidency College Calcutta then they came southwards Madras president Madras University yeah and that time the college where I went Stanley Medical College was a part of a trans University so it was supposed to be you know of the world standards yeah so that was also medical why did you move to politics what happened no actually I've been a medical professional once a medical pressure once a doctor is being a teacher of medicine for almost 25 years yeah before I put in my paper because the party asked me to take up an assignment everybody thought I have gone off my head and doing this because I was a professor there but he worked for diabetes about that yes tell us about that about because you know it's such a it's a epidemic of sorts you know in in our country please", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-63", "text": "of sorts you know in in our country please tell us also because uh easy to uh on at two or three levels it the change has happened a that earlier on The Diabetes Type 2 diabetes which is commonly was known to be a disease more of South India that's why we had the first ever Department of diabetology in Madras Medical College Somewhere In 1980 or so uh and North they were hardly you know if particularly when you went upwards to the north Punjab and to Kashmir people would not have heard of diabetes now it's become a pan India you know kind of a pandemic and we have the we are worlds virtually the world capital of diabetes also because the common Lifestyles and the difference also no stress levels have gone up tremendously uh now you were talking of kashmiri pandas I did a paper long way about 20 years back which was hit by the wh and they published uh the stress diabetes because earlier we came across family police which PTSD which", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-64", "text": "we came across family police which PTSD which didn't have a family history otherwise and and there was no consequently among the couple which sometimes happened in South India the husband and wife were not related also by any blood connection but still simultaneously almost they were developing titles so some stress factors in the environment factors are weighing very heavily it wasn't the diet uh yes diet diet also rice and red meat no I think also because we are having a diet which is uh not we are still evolving as an evolving Society even our diet is evolving we are neither here nor there we are having pizza Olson batura also we are having samosols and noodle also so and then in Diet also there are three components the quality quantity and the distribution often the dietitians and counselors they stress on the quality quantity not on the distribution point of it and the common uh dictum in our society is because the morning meal is breakfast but everybody says breakfast is the most important yes yes", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-65", "text": "everybody says breakfast is the most important yes yes absolutely absolutely you're right so it is break the fast so break the fast with just about 20 to 25 percent of the total calorie intake of 24 hours yeah and then heavier meal is your lunch with a mid-morning snack and the dinner is little early which is correspond corresponds to your supper at a bedtime snack so we don't follow all these things so that coupled with stress so now you did all this uh in your study yeah I've done all this I was practicing actually but cute showed up here why did you leave that for politics no no no I'll go back any moment when I'm not needed here when did you decide that okay not medicine and public service no no it's not that I didn't decide you would not believe I was practicing till 25th of May 2014. the day before I was born in okay so I came to I called up the BJP Carly and I said that uh modiji used", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-66", "text": "BJP Carly and I said that uh modiji used to be sworn in as prime minister and usually the program used to happen in the rashtrapati Bhavan with a limited vvips so I said we may not be expected because you see once you are in a practice not like lawyers also you don't like to leave your chamber for too long a period of time or interval so then I was told and you would recall the first time it happened you know outside in the open Lawns and uh because and that was the most watched oath ceremony of any head of state so then the same morning I I wasn't even carrying my clothes I just came with a briefcase I thought I'll attend the old ceremony and go back and take the earliest train or flight back home to catch up with my work and I had about three weeks of consultation in waiting so but suddenly in the morning I received a call on the 26th that I had to go to with Radha Bhavan so", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-67", "text": "I had to go to with Radha Bhavan so I thought this was my mistake was maybe my namesake some other person was me no no it was you only who had been caught so then I stayed back and I think it's a great privilege because to be figured out to For A Cause do you think medical profession absolutely because if you are a good practitioner You Are by temperament Bound to You Can't succeed as a good practitioner we have seen the best of the brains in medical profession I have dealt with three generations of them both as a practitioner as a teacher as a student we have some of the very very learned medical professionals who could not be successful as practitioners because that they're dealing with the patient requires a different kind of connect come this was a when I came in this seat had been lost to the party twice consecutively and I think I I had the added advantage of being a practitioner because virtually every household I had one or the other", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-68", "text": "virtually every household I had one or the other patients the kind of disease I deal with okay in in conclusion I have to ask you this question you know everybody that we've had out here talk about how polarized uh it's got since modiji came to power because everybody is either very Pro modiji or very anti-modiji there's no mid path everybody and this one sees even in families tell me your brother was in the NC now of course he's left the NC he's joined here family baby one brother in BJP and one brother in the NCAA I think how did that work that itself is is is is an answer to what you said because if he has joined BJ that means he is realized the Folly of being where he was and and and rightly so there's nobody against Modi I tell you I just give you an example when we were campaigning in up in Lucknow University there was kind of a star among some women uh students that you know they were not comfortable because of", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-69", "text": "students that you know they were not comfortable because of all these reasons which you're saying because these are reasons which are discussed in so-called intellectual circles so they take fancy discussing among students so some of these students had this position to know this will be you know some kind of a saffron so-called regime and all those things so then one day we we we used to sit with them in groups so I asked some of we asked them okay we leave it to you we are not here to you just think with a cool mind or take your time and then come back to us to tell us not not to please us so that we can carry your opinion to others also what would you think in the given scenario would be the Preferred Choice and we sat with them for a couple of you know you know the same group after a day or so when we said they said me so I asked I said no the other day you were making all those intellectual you know postulations I know what", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-70", "text": "all those intellectual you know postulations I know what happened and you know what was the answer of a young girl a sweet looking girl said okay come say come mama okay so there was this in which state you see different religion may not be conventional Pro BJP family but this is exactly what this girl said and that is The Telltale story she was talking all kind of postulation when they're fighting a name because he Comfort the ease of living which has been sought to be brought by Prime Minister Modi and his government regardless of religion we didn't reach out only to those who had voted for us so this was coming from somebody because at least and this is so how much of curtailment of freedom and thereby also curtailment of their normal activity happened so when you um meet with your constituents is this the feedback that you get even in your constituency where people are saying that you know after two terms of a government to go in for a for an election where", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-71", "text": "government to go in for a for an election where you're asking for the third term it's not an easy task it's going to be it's yeah it maybe they believe you but then out of share boredom that also happens you know for a third no I think uh yes I agree with you a of course instead of uh Indian currency there is pro incumbency and it's not easy not easy at all not easy it is I think you see you won't realize of course we talk of Prime Minister Modi Modi at 20 that means the chief minister is about 22 years at the same time he's also the one of the longest serving heads of uh government across the world you've seen so many presidents changing in White House so many prime ministers changing in 10 Downing so that is because even for himself his own performance he's been raising the bar you know he's he's put in too much of hard work consistent hard work with consistent Focus always you know dwelling on new ideas having seen him work", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-72", "text": "you know dwelling on new ideas having seen him work so closely over the last so many years being in his office so he he's raising the bar for himself he's never he never gets easily satisfied and that is also and he's a he's he's always studying always updating himself so if you go to him with a presentation with the best of preparation you would have made I'm sure you he'll give you two more suggestions so that's because he raises the bar for himself that's why the people also instead of that in anti-incremancy they feel no there is something more to look up to him okay if if in the last five years term modiji gave us this in the next five years he's bound to give us something more and which we've seen happening you know if the earlier five years were sure other things the next five years was 370 so there's always he's always moving beyond which is what when you talk to kashmiri pandits this is what they say that they are", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-73", "text": "pandits this is what they say that they are frustrated that certain things some of them are frustrated that some things are just taking too much time but they also feel that if it is not done by these guys then nobody else can do it so the expectation from you is tremendous and to be delivered now that is what this is now those who have been those who have gone through this nightmare would always be you know impatient to get out of it so one can't Grudge them you know the BJP is talking about this whole conspiracy uh which involves International media also uh it began before every election it happens they they cite Pegasus uh and they say that this whole adani thing is also exactly that aimed at the nine elections uh State elections and at 2024. do you think there is an international conspiracy against uh the BJP and against Modi well I think the manner in which India is on the rise would not be easily taken by many other countries in the", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "78b238051a9e-74", "text": "not be easily taken by many other countries in the world and India is now becoming the most preferred destination for business most destination to deal with for investment and definitely those who have Ruled The Roost over the years were not like India to be on the ascent and that to that fast but that is precisely that we will also have to deal with and I'm sure under Prime Minister Modi we are capable enough to deal with all those contradictions right thank you so much for coming on the podcast thank you very much I enjoyed it thanks thank you for watching or listening in to a r podcast with Smita prakash do write in to tell us who you would like me to speak to in the next episode please like And subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste foreign [Music]", "source": "BYS_sfrQRHY"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-0", "text": "this is my be-all end-all and I breathe eat drink you know sleep films no that was not the thing for me I'm a believer of sensuous things of sensuality and that's how I see Tipton was a very very sensuous song there was no in your face vulgarity uh as such in that we were a hit pair during Mora and even now when we bump into socially we all meet we all chat and I mean everyone moves on please no girls are changing their boyfriends every week in colleges since then to now but one engagement that is broken is still stuck to my head I don't know why 90s gossip magazines were the worst and some of those women I see roaming around today carrying the women's lib badge over their heads and their hearts who were the worst enemies of women would body shame women would shame women would do everything possible uh to bring another woman down and today they those they roam around being the biggest you know feminists I know others", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-1", "text": "being the biggest you know feminists I know others who've thrown press conference is inside oh I've got this baby from here and this and that but I didn't want to do that because at that time I just wanted to do this quietly and actually make a difference in someone's life this boy called Bollywood thing is a very very sad thing that has happened uh unfortunately because of a few bad apples there are a few bad apples everywhere so because of a few bad apples an entire industry cannot be put to blame all of us who were in the Jeep had tweeted that entire Safari video we only tweeted and we only installed it you tell me if I was doing anything illegal would I be tweeting it or installing it yeah am I nuts especially a man I'm an ambassador myself and I know what Wildlife laws are all about it I couldn't I couldn't help that foreign welcome to another edition of eni podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is the must must girl of Bollywood", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-2", "text": "today my guest is the must must girl of Bollywood the shehar Ki larki The Girl Who Akio say goli mare she was the hot sensation of the 1990s raveena Tandon set the screen on fire in the 1990s she adopted two children as a single mother when she was in her 20s quit films when she was at the peak for marriage and a biological motherhood and then returned to do some selective films raveena ji thank you so much for coming on the podcast I look forward to having this conversation with you even though we've spoken on the phone several times umpteen amount of times and most of them have been SOS calls from me to you yeah there's some country what social media loves you doesn't it that's always been I've been quite um if you're looking dating control is she looking too good for her age if you were just like okay why she just knotted her hair yeah it's and that's been you've been in scrutiny since the 90s right yeah there's not a", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-3", "text": "since the 90s right yeah there's not a day that you can have a bad hair day you have to always look perfect right I know but what to do sometimes it it's too much pressure sometimes you feel at AR but then I think it's how you carry it off also there are many days when I just walk out of my house in just a ponytail and I used to be like that in the 90s not bothering uh now I think some of our fashionistas have spoiled it for us where they're so pretty and proper and they're so uh you know perfect going into the gym coming out when they walk out no there are a few cool ones also like I I I love the way Sarah's and John Lee's attitude is they're pretty chilled out so I think the new and newer Generation Now is much more chilled out as well about these things yeah so which is a good thing actually huh okay so now let's go back chronology the 90s sensation I mean everything about you you got the", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-4", "text": "sensation I mean everything about you you got the best songs and of course the cult you can't go wrong with shubham yeah I'm a huge fan of huge fan no yeah yeah I know that and you know frankly Hurst her voice is extremely strong and all that but somehow like you know you could take all voices uh as your background singer right yeah like it it didn't matter I think that has kind of worked for me I think uh every time when uh that that I I don't know how that has happened uh I don't credit myself for that but actually every hero also that I worked with everyone thought I always shared great chemistry with my heroes I mean at a time when Amir would be signing only one film at a time I'd sign three films with him uh nobody at that time could really uh you know understand how me and Nana party girl got along so well and you know he's still good friends and it's such a a pleasure always to talk to him so it's", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-5", "text": "a pleasure always to talk to him so it's it's it's um it's it's always been that I've always I think gelled uh along with uh with my heroes the same with my uh I think likewise with all the voices that I did uh from galji's voice to lataji's voice in my first film to my ever Eternal Asha bhosleji to Alka yagnikji uh to Shreya Ghoshal now so it's it's always been a a great uh you know tuning as far as I'm concerned I think I just kind of fluid maybe and fluid fluid that's a cool word that's a fluid yeah with teen kids you have to be like you have to use your gen Z language okay so tell me like let's go with uh you since you mentioned Nana patekar why did people think that why because you're Urban and where is at that time there were a lot of stories about Nana losing his school on a lot of people and with me he was always so beautifully uh well behaved", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-6", "text": "me he was always so beautifully uh well behaved and gentlemanly that everyone used to be like how does this happen with you that you get along with you know that he's not getting angry at all yeah and patiently explaining he was really sweet so it was not nayi it was always that I uh did films with with everyone uh and any hero any star that I would sign with I think somehow the pair used to just work and I would end up signing 5566 films with everyone and Amir Khan uh he's supposed to be this method actor yeah and you're more instantaneous spontaneous yeah yeah that was yeah that was that was one thing but then I think one has to learn to always accommodate and learn to adjust and see what is acting acting is ultimately a reaction to an action right and that action has to start from somewhere so if whether you're acting I'm reacting to you and then you will react back to me and that is a give and take kind of a thing and", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-7", "text": "is a give and take kind of a thing and that is where a performance kind of gets honed so whether it was Chichi's timing comedy timing or it was uh you know working with Sunil Shetty or it was working with Akshay or it was working with sunny or it was working with uh Amir or Salman or Ajay it was always one one has to kind of you know get into that mold of everyone has their own style and somehow you have to kind of you know gel with with the kind of tonality that they're picking up in a performance so you you have to gel with a hero or you have to have a bandwidth with the director how did what was it so I prioritize it see it if if you prioritize it's definitely the director first because that's how he ultimately okays but then like I said there's there's when a scene is being played out there are many characters and many actors in it and everyone has as their level so to set that timing along like", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-8", "text": "as their level so to set that timing along like chichirmi would set our timing together you know one would just follow his timing and one would just kind of react to his because sometimes he would just improve and when that improvisation would happen no I'm talking about scenes scenes also I'm talking only about scenes you can't really improvise on Dancing okay really the dancing has to be done according to the beginning dance was like you know it's very specific uh his his moves yeah okay so even with uh with like even with uh even with our uh dancing performances like actually Chichi and me would actually compete with each other because both of us were so fond of dancing in music you know it used to be literally like that and then every song of us that was so cute and actually nowadays every shot everything is a cut but uh Chichi and me would rehearse the whole antra and the mukhra together set up three cameras and do it from start to finish so we've", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-9", "text": "and do it from start to finish so we've actually finished a day and a quarter uh the full song in those days when songs would take five or six days to be shot umari was shot in a day from morning we started and by Sunset we had finished the whole song so because both of us were so good with you know uh picking up steps and learning and doing it in one go and it was very typical right I mean those songs which you did with him uh can't imagine it being done in any other manner did you enjoy it at all of course like I said it was fun so for us it was like a competitive game happening there you know it was a spot that we were playing out there Chichi and me so it would be like here I gave this shot my best now your turn you know it used to be literally like that so it was he had all the chemistry just with you and I think with Karishma Kapoor right those yes probably yes that's it yes", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-10", "text": "Kapoor right those yes probably yes that's it yes the songs the the you know the camaraderie it was so obvious to the viewers also yeah yeah right that's true that's very important between actors yeah you know who who else did you have it with did you have it with Sunil Shetty too oh I think I've had this this kind of camaraderie with all my heroes it's not been particularly most of them are still very very good friends of mine it's uh whether it's jagu or Sanju or it's Sunil or it's sunny or it is um you know Salman or it is um anyone you you name um I I've always had a great tuning because I I think I would end up being more or their body than than be seen as or hot chick has walked on the sets or something I was not at all like that I was always very tomboy so I was like always one of the boys yeah yeah and did they know you since because you're also from the industry did they", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-11", "text": "you since because you're also from the industry did they know you Pele not really I mean uh a lot of them were not from the film fraternity like Sunny the old would be whom you have acted no he was much senior okay but Bobby and I were in the same school and Bobby was about three years senior to me three or four years senior in mitibai college so he was much much senior sunny but um um I think uh Sanju because that Sab and my dad were very close friends so Sanju and Priya I know since I was a kid uh but again Sanju was always much older um um was there a comfort factor with them because you knew them as family always yeah Sanju treated me always like a little boy in his gang yeah he still does okay when I had the biggest crush on him okay even then he did so I was like oh God me and my little broken heart oh dear so you never considered I was the little boy in his group okay whom", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-12", "text": "I was the little boy in his group okay whom he had to take care of yeah okay so um you know there's this whole thing that uh certain actors want to work with actresses and during the 90s it was even 70s 80s 90s it changed after a while maybe but some actors would only recommend that we want to work with these people see there were times when they would recommend as well uh like for example but then ultimately it's also the salability of the person that would matter for example I'll I'll give you an example uh though it was prevalent definitely yes in the 90s uh there was a film that was offered to me which the original Star cast was um uh another very big hit pair and uh me and another person who was a hit pair but unfortunately for me that that person who was my course die in a couple of films started dating one of the heroines who couldn't stand me who had this real competitive jealousy rivalry with me so she kind of no of course", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-13", "text": "with me so she kind of no of course not so she kind of told him that you know if if I see you talking to her or something I'm gonna dump you and you can't do more films with her and we were a hit pair so and he told me also he said you know when she comes on the sets I'm not going to talk to you I said why we're friends I mean there's nothing and I mean you know whom I'm dating so what's the big deal I'm dating someone else so he was like no no no but don't talk to me when she's around okay and then and then suddenly one day I was told sorry you've got to leave these films because uh he doesn't want to work with you anymore I was like but why but as luck would have it that the the producer whom he went and said or recommended his girlfriend the producer only dropped him said no I don't want to sign up because she doesn't suit the role only raveena suits the", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-14", "text": "doesn't suit the role only raveena suits the role okay fine if you don't want Ravina for it I'll drop you and I'll drop her but I'll never sign that girl so there were people who stick to the conviction also as to what the character suits right so that does happen as well but but how do you drop a person whom you've already signed isn't that like isn't that okay they didn't ask the signing amount back or whatever I remember Praveen from time anymore you sign up and then if you don't take then yeah because I I haven't uh uh kind of breached the contract right it is from there okay and and then there are so many times that you also do it out of emotion uh I remember another very uh popular film director came up to me and he was in love with his heroine and he had signed me opposite Sunny for some film and he came to my house and said you're like my younger sister you're my sister you know I'm", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-15", "text": "younger sister you're my sister you know I'm madly in love with her and I want to marry her but she'll kill me and I've signed you and this and that so please you know help me make my relationship work I said no problem I'll step out of the film and she got the role and she got the roll Yeah well yeah it kind of that that film did kind of well yes that's your Social Service you take yeah so that's also I've done that also so many times help people but then so I think ultimately it's karma then yeah okay so uh you do this whole bunch of films and you know in your 20s you decide to adopt two kids as a single mother that was quite a revolutionary Step at that time yeah family stood by you they didn't say completely stood by me I mean my parents see my mom had been doing this work for the longest time my mom and my dad and they'd been working for the girl child for the empowerment of children in fact", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-16", "text": "girl child for the empowerment of children in fact they used to help out an orphanage where we've actually seen little babies being buried in the sand uh the fishermen finding them in mud and bringing them to the Prem sadhan and Asha Southern there so my parents used to work with these Asha Southern and Prime southern people and uh so I've grown up watching that and every time I I tell my mom you know let's take this baby home kind of a thing as things turned out that unfortunately an incident happened in our family where these kids uh their parents were normal when they were handed over to a very scrupulous kind of people and uh the minute I turned 21 I said listen I keep doing charity for the whole world this is something that's happening in front of me and I believe charity begins at home probably so if I am going around helping other ngos and other girls make their life these these two girls been born and brought up in front of me they're my", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-17", "text": "and brought up in front of me they're my cousin's children and I think they're not getting the kind of life that they deserve so I called a meeting of all my cousins and I said that listen this is what I plan to do I plan to take the girls in are you all all in support first my parents were very happy about it so they've been grandparents to them all along and um they were like yeah fine you know that's a great idea so Against All Odds you don't know how what a struggle it was to get both the girls back we got the girls and since that day to today they both legally it was not a challenge it was I could be the legal guardian in those days single mother adoption was not uh approved it was not legal today in today's day which I think is superb that it is so what did you become you became there I became the minute I turned 21 I became the legal guardian before that my mom became the legal guardian the", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-18", "text": "before that my mom became the legal guardian the minute I became 21 I became the legal Gardener but you could never become you could adopt them no no no I couldn't because that time the laws were not single women couldn't okay but what did your co-stars think at that time so they all knew about them they used to even now they asked me about them sometimes so they used to be on my uh shootings or most of the time only once they grew up a little when they were much younger uh I didn't bring them on the shoots and stuff because at that time media was also crazy you know they'd just write any kind of crap so one didn't want the children to be exposed to that kind of crap so I kept them kind of away from the media eye but then as they grew once they passed their tenth uh when they were in college they started hanging out with me and then then slowly and steadily I did talk about it and uh for example I know others", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-19", "text": "talk about it and uh for example I know others who've thrown press conferences and said oh I've got this baby from here and this and that but I didn't want to do that because at that time I just wanted to do this quietly and actually make a difference to someone's life and not get the girls complex by what people would be talking about them in the press or or however you know how people read and how sometimes peer group pressure can be really um cruel so I didn't want them to go through all that at that time and hence I kind of kept it under wraps and then a lot of uh people who are advocating uh adoption and you know uh ngos they came and talked to me and said we want you to be Ambassador but you must start talking about it so that it gives incentive to people to uh you know come up and do things like this and hence I started talking about it then okay so let's get back to the films now so the I'm", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-20", "text": "get back to the films now so the I'm going to go with the films that I like the most so I'll go with all the chichora food it has to be right in the 90s was something else you know that reminds me when um there was this talk talk about that uh deepika's song Deepika Shahrukh song that besharam rang song which was coming on and at that time everybody's like ah you know it's too vulgar and things and then of course because it was orange and so all the orange dressed songs came up you know that okay wasn't this valka wasn't this welcome wasn't this welcome yellow so your tip tip thing so when we were all talking which I think is I mean it's not a nice song this one I I at least personally I didn't like it I don't believe it should be banned but I didn't like it and this was on air by the way this is an honor discussion we had or one of the podcasts I think how dare", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-21", "text": "or one of the podcasts I think how dare you say tip tip so there were all these 90s kids these guys now they're in their 40s and they were like don't you taste any Village blasphemy this was how we he grew up on this is you don't know how much it meant to us and then later on camera they were like depressive happiness did you even realize in fact there was a point where I think even the co-producer of the film he kind of mentioned in an interview from his recently that raveena didn't want to do a song earlier and then we kind of convinced her because they wanted the whole song without the saree on and I was like hello that ain't happening at all I'm Gonna Keep My saree on and my yeah okay getting drenched is okay you're doing a rain song the whole world has done rain songs and the whole world gets drenched but I said no way Jose I am keeping my sari on so there's just that one", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-22", "text": "keeping my sari on so there's just that one flip of asari and then where he dances with the sari and then it's back on to me where I actually put it on so I mean there are times when you can put your foot down no one puts a gun on your head and says do these things and um see I've always believed that there's a there's a thin line between sensuality and sexuality in your face sexuality so I am not a person who would like in your face sexuality that come see I'm sexual I think that's a little too much uh I think sensuality can be in anything can be in a hair flip can be in your eyes can be in your expression can be even in the way you smile so that that is I'm I'm a believer of sensuous things of sensuality and that's how I see tip to barsapani tip tip is a very very sensuous song there was no in your face vulgarity uh as such in that you know where in those", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-23", "text": "uh as such in that you know where in those days when there was an ERA in the 90s where all double meaning songs and double meaning uh you know films like um uh I mean there's so many of those songs which are so well going so obscene and uh this was essential this was this had to portray a Kind of Love Making between the uh between the actors and it I think it did very beautifully well so this boundary that you're talking about or this this um yeah the lines that you would say that may that's for you as a person but did you have any objection or did you feel that this ought not to be on air uh some of the things the vulgar ones that you're talking about in those days yeah I mean that's my opinion but everyone it's a free world yeah everyone can do what they want even now it depends even now yeah everyone is allowed to do what they want and what they feel in their mind is right it's their problem yeah I I don't say that", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-24", "text": "it's their problem yeah I I don't say that go pick up a gun and go and shoot the other person there are some laws in this country that correct so it's it's not that but uh I do believe that it's a free world where a democratic country we have the right to do and think and say what we want and luckily we we we women uh I'm I'm proud to be born in this country which allows me the freedom to voice my opinions to walk how I want to and to talk how I want to so I don't feel any kind of Oppression or suppression and neither have I felt that way and this is the way I've been brought up as well so coming back to um uh one song that people are not liking fine you don't like it that's your opinion but the actors who did it they're loving it it's their problem and you feel feel that everything has a right to exist um so long as it's not harming Society in any manner as long", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-25", "text": "not harming Society in any manner as long as it's not harming Society in any manner yes of course I mean terrorism can't exist that's their uh freedom of speech probably that's bullets I couldn't I couldn't help very bad joke sorry but I mean talking about such a serious topic like terrorism but nonetheless that uh of course now that is not the freedom of expression that you would like to give anyone is violence so that definitely is a No-No and you you voiced uh an opinion very strongly about uh women and violence and you've talked about terrorism you you don't hesitate in speaking up when the when the occasion demands of course not I think we all should be speaking up because this is the country that we are going to bestow upon our kids after we are dead and gone is this the kind of uh uh you know planet or country is that what we are going to leave behind for our children and the minute I became a mother I was worried about every everything", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-26", "text": "became a mother I was worried about every everything that happened everything that happened in the newspaper was worried about and all I wanted to do was protect my kids so I think it's it's it's it's a different uh emotion altogether that you go through that let's get together and make make our country one of the best countries so that our children can be proud to belong here in fact the film industry is is often criticized that they don't speak up often enough considering that they are you know they are torch bearers damned if you speak and damned if you don't correct that both happens like I've seen the reticence in some very well-known people in the film industry who just don't speak up because they say even if we do offer right causes the right thing we say we still get pillar read exactly so what has happened is I mean there's a certain section uh for example according to me Twitter is completely polarized you know it's either the right wing", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-27", "text": "polarized you know it's either the right wing or the left wing and they've completely taken over there's nothing that you can do so either your uh uh what either your what's it called sanghi or you're an axolite it's either something like that yeah so I mean it's it's there's there's no middle path or else your minor media media yeah exactly so it's either or there's no middle path left anymore there is no neutral uh path that you can take but yes when it comes to my country and when I have to speak about my country because like I said I mean there is and and yeah I do get comments am I not a citizen of this country am I not a mother who has children who will be the next generation of this country am I not uh paying my taxes am I not uh paying my dues uh living in this country am I not proud of this country so what has taken uh me to be an actress to be taken my rights away to speak about", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-28", "text": "to be taken my rights away to speak about when I want to speak about my country so who are you to tell me that so if I don't come to your house and tell you don't talk about this who are you to come to my house to tell me don't talk about this so do your kids tell you mom don't calm down calm down but then yes even my daughter is like that she's righteous as well in fact that whole one Bihar thing that started she was the one who took the video who couldn't handle seeing the tiger uh you know some tourists throwing stones at the tiger and that's how the whole controversy erupted because what happened tell me about that I think I think I just ruffled a few feathers and it was completely you know uh Vendetta uh so your daughter without a forest she was at the one no no she was at the one vihar we were in Bhopal in mp um we were at one Bihar my daughter had gone with my entire", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-29", "text": "one Bihar my daughter had gone with my entire team to one vihar and they you can hear them tell those guys you know they were getting really angry so all I tweeted was that y'all are doing great conservation work and actually that one VR is one of the most uh forward uh Progressive zoos that we have is it cannot be called a zoo because the animals are actually not really caged it's almost like a rescue shelter and they're doing great conservation and breeding work so all I said was y'all are doing great work and excellent stuff and everything but please see that nobody the security is increased around the Tigers because this is incident that has happened today which we've seen obviously that ruffled a few feathers okay but not at the ministry level because I think the forest minister is one of the sweetest and the nicest guy and the work that he's done in and around bench also when you enter uh Forest the entire highway is fenced with huge walls so that there", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-30", "text": "highway is fenced with huge walls so that there are no Road kills here otherwise all our highways that are cutting across the forest they have a numerous amount of Road kills whether they're leopards or tigers or Elephants or or other things whether they're railway tracks or their roads so in fact they have taken such great medication measures and I've praised that umpteen amount of times that I've been to but see anything negative is more notice than all the positive that you've done true so it was in fact the forest Minister was so apologetic he's saying I don't believe this has happened to you you one of the Front Runners of our wildlife so I think uh the one officer who's who was really upset because what happened was the last time when I was in satpura Forest he had asked me for some bites Which BBC came and shot and uh I wanted some emails from them uh and they had invited me to stay at the guest house so I said please put it", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-31", "text": "at the guest house so I said please put it on email because as protocol I want everything in Black and White because tomorrow no one should say anything you know and me being an ambassador of Maharashtra Wildlife there has to be a certain protocol followed I can't just come and stay in the guest so I can't just come for uh this thing no not in another state that was not exactly the issue but nonetheless I'm promoting another forest in another State's Forest right though I promote our entire Indian Wildlife because I work a lot for the Indian my life as well so for me that differentiation is not there but to be ethically correct that there if I'm giving you bites and if you are in inviting me to be a guest for MP it has to come properly on an invitation like with proper protocol you can because everything has to be done properly it cannot just be done so I think they were upset that one officer was upset about that because when my one of my friends who", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-32", "text": "about that because when my one of my friends who was on the Jeep with me the day we went for that Safari he's one of the biggest uh Chiefs of one of the biggest Wildlife organizations so I was not this me and my daughter alone it was he was one of the biggest uh uh what do you say he does rescue work he does everything for wildlife and he was there in the front with me on the in the Jeep so we knew what we were doing and tigers aren't predictable in ranthamboree not the tiger Walks Like onto your Jeep literally they walk across your Jeep so it's a very very normal Safari but because these guys that one chap actually had a bone to pick with me because I didn't release the bites for uh and then I tweeted about one vihar has unnecessary called Ani and PTI and said sis and you will not believe it Smitha one week before I had only tweeted and uh that friend of mine all of us who", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-33", "text": "and uh that friend of mine all of us who were in the Jeep had tweeted that entire Safari video we only tweeted and we only installed it you tell me if I was doing anything illegal would I be tweeting it or installing it yeah am I nuts especially a man I'm an ambassador myself and I know what Wildlife laws are all about and I'm promoting it yeah so they have picked up that video CNN 18 had picked up that video and they had completely written again it was a very positive this thing these guys must have seen that they said and we know what the laws are and the other thing is actually when there's a tourist in the car for whatever reason whoever is driving the jeep is also from the uh mp uh Forest Department you can't take any car inside yeah so it was not my karna that was inside it was the forest vehicle that was inside it was a forest vehicle driver who was driving it was a forest Department's guide was sitting with us so never so", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-34", "text": "Department's guide was sitting with us so never so the whole leak out happened that there was a notice on me they can never be a notice on the tourist unless the tourists jumped out of the car irritated the tiger we did nothing we were quiet absolutely Russia and me and they just wanted to make a controversy their attitude and then after one and a half week I was Bhopal Ki beti so suddenly you do a lot of Photography also while yeah right you enjoy doing that have you always done that like it's been a long-standing passion of yours photography yes Wildlife at all we have been doing it since 2000 yeah and Peter is one another thing that Peter's one of the uh yeah animal organizations that I support yeah and see now I've moved away from your film thing too no but you know the best part was that these officers were trying to do this and that poor Forest Minister didn't know only okay why this is happening in fact he I know him he's", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-35", "text": "is happening in fact he I know him he's like a you know friend him and his family so when I went back to Bhopal this time his wife his son and his daughter-in-law poor things and they escorted me to the Jungle next just to make up for everything that those some some of these baboos can really spoil you know instead of giving it a good name they give it a bad name into the entire thing so we talked about what you do for uh for wildlife your Peta is one of the thing your photography is something then there's also for the girl child that you work and for organ donation tell us some of the work that you do there um well I've always advocated organ donation as well I'm an organ donor too so please go out and get your organ donor card today and carry it with you in your wallet because not that we would wish that on anyone but God forbid if there's an incident you can actually make a difference to at least 15", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-36", "text": "you can actually make a difference to at least 15 lives with just what you have with you so even now or even even during your old age because there are some organs that can you know last with whatever uh today science is is has improved by Leaps and Bounds so I think it's very necessary for all of us to become organ donors and there's a stigma around organ donation a lot of faiths and religions believe are a the body will get defaced and the eyes will pop out and there'll be sockets like that and you know we can't deface the body I think those are all stigmas that need to be spoken against and I think there's no better Karma or no better blessing than you making a difference to people's lives who really need it at the time and uh I think that is one thing that needs to be really spoken about um imagine if we all became organ donors what a what a change they would be in life um and then the girl child yes I've", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-37", "text": "in life um and then the girl child yes I've always worked for women empowerment I've made my films around domestic violence women empowerment girl children whether it was Matra it was Daman or it was uh you know Jago or it was any of these films um that is also something that I've been working forever in the world also when you came back after the break that you had in your career uh you started doing these many breaks in your career yeah let's talk about that let's talk about that why did you leave when you were at the peak of your career yeah and then all the others raised ahead which is the story of my life really why um that happened why should yeah in my daughter's school race also I'm telling a story of my life I was coming first and before that I didn't hear the announcement I have to run up to the guy with the flag so I stopped whether where the white line stopped I stopped on Sunday so everyone racing I had as my husband saying", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-38", "text": "so everyone racing I had as my husband saying why did you stop you were first I said I don't know so these things I can never forgive myself sometimes but not ambitious what was it that that I was never ambitious he films just happened to me there was no so-called nepotism or anything that happened neither did my dad ever realize it was just like really you want to sign my daughter so it was it just happened like that right everybody was saying you're pretty or yeah true so that's what I said it it kind of and neither would I ever wanted my dad to launch me or produce films for me or you know keep me going constantly because I always believe that if I have it in me if I have the talent I'll stand on my own two feet and make it for myself and not really uh you know I always wanted to be self-made so uh not that films were something that I was thinking at all kind of just happened to me I", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-39", "text": "at all kind of just happened to me I kept getting offers I said no 267 offers before I eventually said yes to Patricia pool that too because Salman was there my college friends wanted to meet him so I signed the phone okay they were like please all the things I've not heard anything this bizarre seriously I went to college I went to college 19000 fijc and I told my friends guess what now I got offered a film opposite Salman Khan and he was the biggest thing after many pool was the second film so they were like don't say no to this please so let's give it a shot and the next day I said yes two days later I was facing the camera so I had no training I did not train to become a star so it was not at all that's the so-called nepotism that is spoken about which I think is too over hyped uh I had not gone dancing classes acting classes diction classes classes but uh and I just stood in front of the camera and", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-40", "text": "and I just stood in front of the camera and that that was it I just started and then yeah that's it the rest is acting came naturally what was expected out of you in that film just to say hello Daddy and look pretty and you're the kader Khan kind dad and how many films was he your dad yeah a lot of films I miss him really he's so talented and so in so many films it was like okay it was decided yeah all those dialogues were also the same like yeah you wouldn't you wouldn't marry a person who he never approved of you know that's exactly what I told people they said so how tough was it in the 90s to do 30 Films at one time I said hi Daddy Daddy play the same rich brat in every film falling in love with the poor guy that was costume like okay maybe you had Govinda and uh chitty in fact I started working the second phase of my career when I came back initially all the films that", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-41", "text": "career when I came back initially all the films that Chichi and me signed never took off uh so in the first phase mostly I did about six films with sunny I did seven films with Sanju I did films with Sunil I did films with Akshay I did six films with Akshay I did six films with Ajay uh I did uh three films with Salman uh I did I was signed Shahrukh and we had signed four films but unfortunately Jadoo the director died and what music that film had we still regret when Shahrukh and we meet then zamana Diwana we did English Babu Desi babe I had signed which then I ultimately left uh Dar was had come to me first um really yeah so like you were talking about that vulgarity and whether you didn't do so no though it was not vulgar but there was Sometimes some scenes that I was not comfortable with a couple of scenes swimming costume I'll not wear a swimming costume I think Lola got launched was", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-42", "text": "swimming costume I think Lola got launched was actually offered to me first but even that there was this one scene where the hero pulls down the zipper or something and a strap is showing me I was uncomfortable with that so I used to be uncomfortable with a lot of things I I was very uncomfortable with proximity with people whom I could not I would not every very like this I was little uppity at that time I think and not snooty I was never snooty I was always like how I am right now only so that's why they treated me like a boy but I was not like um how do I say like for example um dance steps if I'd be uncomfortable or something I'd say listen I'm not comfortable with this step I would not do the step I didn't want to wear swimming costumes I didn't do kissing scenes so I had my funders I was the only actress who had a couple of rape scenes with not one one tear in her dress", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-43", "text": "rape scenes with not one one tear in her dress on my dress would be fully intact I'll say no I will not do okay but that's what now I think it's something here that you can't stop if you're talented and I tell people if you're talented you're hard working you have faith in yourself you believe in yourself nothing can stop you okay so if you see the girls today uh you know who are acting with it SRI Devi's daughter or Seth's daughter or whatever they have this camera G they're they're doing instas together yeah they party together and all what was it like in the 90s we also had a lot of camaraderie see juhi uh Madhuri and maduriya Senior senior to me but Kajol myself Shilpa Neelam uh you name them uh juhi uh madhu Madhuri till before she died I was I mean pretty close to her as well so we've all been friends then and we've all we're friends now Manisha urmila whenever we all meet", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-44", "text": "friends now Manisha urmila whenever we all meet we meet so warmly and at times you know where we party together we used to even in those days we used to I remember holy parties I remember I used to go pick up urmila and then we used to go for the holy parties together Rani so we all still in touch with each other yeah there are few some of them were jealous who only keep to themselves we are fine with that but the rest of us are all still very close uh and and there's that certain bond that we all still have we're always on each other's insta always complimenting each other always pressing likes by each other always doing things for each other and the jokes also must have been the same right you you knew the jokes about all the yeah now we can sit back and laugh at a lot of things actually there's a lot of things what about the pay scale discrepancies I believe they were tremendous in the 90s yes of course", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-45", "text": "were tremendous in the 90s yes of course they were that's why I think heroines used to do much many more films at a one go where a hero would be doing five films a year but we'd be doing 30 Films a year so that was the kind of discrepancy in Pay yeah yeah really 30 is to five it would be almost probably yes yeah but nobody aired that nobody voiced that thing well that was the norm I think that was the norm probably everywhere so it's not only the industry I think that was the norm everywhere sure yeah exactly but in in films one would think that the creativity level would be the same that you know you would be doing or did the actors have the like the male members male actors had to do more in a film see at that time yes most definitely the male actors had much more burden to carry on the film because if a film slopped or something it was known as their flop you know it was known as them as uh the heroine", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-46", "text": "know it was known as them as uh the heroine would still go ahead and sign for python so I think that was not uh you know so much so but today the kind of roles and the films that have are being made the way uh we carry or whether it's a web series or it's a film we carry it also on our shoulders so it's equal amount so nonetheless yes the pay scale has also upped in our characters have also upped which I love and your personal life has always been something uh that's always in the news like even today if I was to Google raveena Tandon Akshay Kumar's name comes up with it and that you broke up with him 25 30 years ago yeah but it still comes up no no it comes up and it comes up that there's like you know war between everyone whom he is involved with hello once I had moved out of his life I was already dating someone else and he was he had moved on dating someone else so it's January 2023 when we", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-47", "text": "dating someone else so it's January 2023 when we are taping this yeah and uh the fourth or the fifth Story if you type raveena Tandon comes up is raveena tandan's engagement with Akshay Kumar which year was that ah forgotten about it forgot so it's still talked about there are some I think there are some pairings which uh people never forget I think we were very uh we were a hit pair during Mora and even now when we bump into socially we all meet we all chat and I mean everyone moves on please no girls are changing their boyfriends every week in colleges since then to now but one engagement that has broken is still stuck to my head I don't know why yeah but uh yes everyone moves on people have divorces people move on yeah so what's the big deal so even after that after he broke up with you it was always that oh whoever he finds he's finding people who look like raveena do you remember that those stories you don't oh you", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-48", "text": "do you remember that those stories you don't oh you just blocked it out of here I had I would not read anything that was written about that because then why unnecessarily Apna blood pressure do you do that often like stay away yeah I block it out gossip magazines of those days now they're completely blocked from my house really yeah yeah because 90s gossip magazines were the worst and some of those women I see roaming around today carrying the women's lib badge over their heads and their hearts who were the worst enemies of women would body shame women would shame women would do everything possible uh to bring another woman down and today they those they roam around being the biggest you know feminists I was like when did that happen if I start telling stories about them to you where nobody would body shame you you always looked perfect no no no please I was called a lot of things and thunder thighs and miss this and miss that I don't believe that yeah but I know started at", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-49", "text": "don't believe that yeah but I know started at 16 and a half I had all full baby fat which still hasn't gone so I don't care now I'm I'm being like that I am like that too bad no you're exaggerating it was like I think SRI Devi was called that a lot um I don't know why I remember some of these titles no no not only for me a lot of other heroines also and besides that I think instead of supporting women what they did was to they would all these women editors first of all would fall in love with the heroes and then what the hero said was the last word if he wanted to you know pan a woman the woman would be panned and shamed and uh literally her career ruined in the magazines uh with nasty articles being put out about her there was so many untrue articles that were put out just because some Heroes went and said and it would be the the last word and even if there would be an apology there would be one", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-50", "text": "if there would be an apology there would be one last line and some other issue of the magazine that story We carried ultimately proved not to be true but who will read that at that time the screaming headlines is what made news right yeah so that that social media kind of changed all that right there is the viciousness also but at least you can put out your point yes yes that is that is what is very very necessary is that today you can put out the truth instantly that see this is the proof and this is where I was and this is what it is yeah but at that time what the newspapers wrote or what the media wrote was the last word you had you didn't have a voice it was like I remember uh anybody uh put on a little weight any actress put on is she pregnant is she pregnant is she pregnant yeah yeah yeah that whole thing at least now I mean within a day a denial can go out that okay it was just I had samosas yeah", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-51", "text": "that okay it was just I had samosas yeah no no not Samosa I mean whatever I mean I'm being facetious but it used to be really really dirty the 90s journalism and that breed of those journalists were really dirty really dirty that why you vicious moved out once you got married like yeah yeah that's why I was like okay I'm waiting because this viciousness I can't deal with because I am not like that as a person what I am I am on the face I think initially in fact I remember Stardust even writing an article about uh I I don't believe in plucking flowers a I prefer flowers and animals in the forest and in the nature where they should be so I always I started this trend of sending people cakes right in the 90s and I remember Stardust writing an article see how a diabetically artificially fake sweet she is nowadays she sends cakes to everyone instead of flowers for a birthday how does that make that an article I would say I'd rather send a you", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-52", "text": "an article I would say I'd rather send a you know bottle of wine or cake and that's what I started I used to send everyone cakes so that was supposed to be fake you were done with films at that stage uh I like I told you I started on a whim never thought that this would be I I've never grew up with the fact maybe actress this is my be-all end-all and I breathe eat drink you know sleep films no that was not the thing for me I always wanted to lead a normal life I wanted to have kids I wanted to have a family and I wanted to have a real marriage what is a real marriage yeah not just holding hands for the paps that for me is not a real marriage a real marriage is true companionship and someone who so that was happening a lot in the film industry that happens a lot everywhere it's not only the film industry where you take the business industry you take everywhere it's very difficult to find the right partner", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-53", "text": "everywhere it's very difficult to find the right partner I feel and and it kind of happens everywhere and I've seen a beautiful marriage between my parents so I always believed grew up believing in the institution of marriage because why couldn't you have had a career and marriage at this time but I do have a career at the same time at that time when you got out okay because that was the condition that was put to me okay yeah and then later I chose my career platter half of the thing I said not happening I think now this time I choose my career and I kind of restarted my career all over again and at that time I had to start from point zero you wanted to be invited that time then I started doing films which otherwise I left off when I was doing films like Mora dilwale imtehan where I was the main leader with the film's only revolved around me and then I started with films like with sunny and all doing action films they were basically action", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-54", "text": "and all doing action films they were basically action films and I had five scenes and five songs to do or something but at that time for me that was better than nothing now you mentioned you have to tell me about the story that did you really think it would become a cult movie when you were shooting where we thought it would do really well because we were in splits throughout but you know unfortunately at that time that like I told you that was the era where a lot of these cheap comedies were being played out you know a lot of these films are doing well with the masses and then suddenly came andars clean family film with clean comedy straight faced comedy kind of a thing you know that pan-faced comedy being put out and I I think the audiences probably did not understand it they had gotten too used to that double meaning cheap buffoonery you know and so that's why I think uh took the hit but otherwise I think it was um we didn't realize what will become today because", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-55", "text": "um we didn't realize what will become today because the minute the um you know the the people came back to it exactly until till date it's it's it's a cult film yeah like when you're feeling low down and out yeah and you just want to just chill yeah did you have fun doing that Karishma raveena raveena yeah it was a it was a lot of fun we used to be you'll see me in some scenes I'm actually laughing I'm actually laughing because you can't stop the laughter and then one doesn't want to spoil the whole take okay so actually grinning and saying your dialogues tell me if you were to pick uh among your women friends in the film industry you mentioned so many of them is Karishma one of them like well they meet we we do meet socially but I think she has her set Circle so okay and among the male friends male actors that you've acted with who did you feel most comfortable with like acting I think it has to be Sanju", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-56", "text": "with like acting I think it has to be Sanju yeah he's a very private person I've heard no no no where did you hear that uh choir no matter I've done so many films with Sanju I think uh yeah I probably know Sanju quite a bit is the panju panju thing no it's just that I guess it's just a level of comfort with him somehow okay it's Sanju um all of them are my friends um one of the guys you are right that's right yeah I was always like one of the boys Sunil Sanju jagu we all meet vinver we all meet now we meet so warmly Salman so it's yeah it's uh because uh the interviews that we have seen of uh uh Sunny deol is like he hardly speaks uh he's just like very a man of few words yeah there are many actors like that who in interviews they're very quiet yeah but on screen they are like completely different yeah you know yeah I guess they are reserved yeah they're introverts introverts", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-57", "text": "I guess they are reserved yeah they're introverts introverts right I'm not an introvert it's like what's yours is here is what's here is here and you know like my husband says why please don't please don't because it that's you yeah yeah I I am I've always been an open book and I do believe that um a uh if you have nothing to hide you don't end up lying and if you don't end applying you have nothing to hide period so let's come into the 2000s you know when like I said after your several breaks and coming up going back coming back and things like that but the nice thing is that directors were always ready to cast you as soon as you wanted to come back um and let's go on to ux and then you know then your best actress award for uh Daman talk to me about these films did you feel like more fulfilled doing these uh absolutely I think I had started making the shift with a film called shul it took me a lot to", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-58", "text": "a film called shul it took me a lot to actually convince ramu to cast me in shul because he said I'll never forget that line of his he said but raveena every time I close my eyes and they say raveena for manjari Barbie and all I can see you do is yeah exactly I was like yeah but whatever and that actually happened because we were shooting the still uh for the uh you know the posters and the still shoot for sure and uh but sinu the director was very convinced that uh I suit the role and or I will do justice to the role so he and and me were trying our best to convince ramu and uh I was shooting with Rakesh rishta and there was the makeup room and then there's like how there was a makeup room there and there was the setup over here and I finished getting ready and I walked out coming to do my Stills to do my thing and uh ramu crossed me Ramos go in the washroom so I", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-59", "text": "crossed me Ramos go in the washroom so I looked at ramu I said hi ramu you're finally here so he looked at me and did and he walked past me I was like shoot he's really upset that I'm doing this film you know I don't think he really wants me to and I went and stood from the camera and I started emoting and I was doing my thing and suddenly we after five minutes we hear this oh my God raveena that was you I said yeah ramu I said hello to you what were you wearing I was wearing that same that one SRI Barbie you know that cotton saree and no makeup it's just my hair tied behind just kajal in my eyes that was my entire look for and he just couldn't he didn't recognize me he just did this like she was like maybe the male or something clean up mate saying hello Hi ramu how are you so I was like what the hell come up with me yeah and then and then", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-60", "text": "hell come up with me yeah and then and then there was no looking back and then I did gulami Mustafa then I did ask then I did um yeah and then like I said there was no how did kalpana Lakshmi think of you with why I have no clue I think she was very convinced uh during I don't know if Daman and shul were nearly together I couldn't remember okay I don't remember the timeline but uh but yeah she also wanted like like for example everyone thought dimple was really glamorous right till kalpana gave us and then and likewise she said uh you know unfortunately actually she said a very very nice thing which I also believed in you know actually if you go to see even in the earlier era for me the most natural and beautiful actresses and they were performance wise they were equal at par but unfortunately wahidaji was always known more as an actor actor and Madhubala wasn't because people would only watch her beautiful face first because they only spoke", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-61", "text": "only watch her beautiful face first because they only spoke more about her beauty but not if you see madhubalaji's performances any of these films with the uh yeah uh that's um even that even that song I mean just see her performance yeah in that and she goes she's so natural there was no overacting or anything she was the one of the most natural performers that we had but unfortunately for her it was her beauty took over the actor that she was with the media with the people with the public her smiled is that they only spoke about that more but like for example uh when if one was to look at you because you're so so you know vocal and you you look happy in all your songs one won't think of you as a battered woman you know who has faced abuse so that's why uh Daman was something which was completely different like yeah that you nobody would think of raveena Tandon as a victim film also I think got a lot of uh a claim because we", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-62", "text": "think got a lot of uh a claim because we spoke about marital violence and marital rape at the time or probably even today where it's not being given the kind of recognition that it should be given you know we spoke about it then so it was it was uh but you I'll just quote one in which is raveena Tandon lends credibility to the role of a battered wife and walks away with the honors the pathos she conveys through her Expressions make you realize that she's a performer of substance now again uh till these this lot of films came nobody saw about you that you could convey pathos pathos would only be okay the guys dumped me and that was the only pathos that one saw in your earlier films so was it a conscious decision in in the later half of your career to do this it was that is why I had to convince ramu to get me to do shul and then came Daman then came like I said then the rest of the film", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-63", "text": "came like I said then the rest of the film yeah yeah so those also you you did you like get more fulfillment doing these films yeah I did because then because of my second coming I could talk about it is that I I wanted to place myself in such a way I mean I remember actually Karan still doesn't forgive me for not doing but he didn't understand at that time because Kajol was my contemporary right we started together we were both doing lead roles so I couldn't have done where I was at a lower uh probably smaller role than Granny's role rani's role which was a smaller role and Rani benefited from it because she was a newcomer and suddenly she came across as oh my God this is awesome you know so that was the difference that that would have happened at that time then that's what I told Karan so it's just that I wanted to place myself more as an actor actor rather than again doing something with just five scenes and you know five super", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-64", "text": "something with just five scenes and you know five super hit songs and so even now there are times that people don't look Beyond me than my hit songs actually it's a hindrance where every time when I go they only talk about my songs what about all the performances of the awards that I won otherwise hello what about my performances where does that go you know you you've done it but I can't help it even I would like my intro to you is that only exactly the only thing I'm called is but yeah God you don't even know I've done that and you guessed it right I can't I can't help it because that is how it is that's what I'm telling you because ultimately the masses also remember you for your songs they remember you for your uh you know hit songs how many he's done films yeah but you'll still say Mr India no yeah I love him and jackass can't help it so many films in all this yeah there's so many films with him also can you imagine yeah", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-65", "text": "so many films with him also can you imagine yeah that you know one would think of speaking about Anil Kapoor and not say RAM lakhan and not say uh Mr India you can't help it those are iconic so that's what happens roles that true that so let's talk about your like we when we are winding up let's talk about your Otto phone movies now I mean you've like done phenomenal work uh yeah and you know in the 90s women probably May men also they won't think of even television television it is coming down I think Mr Bachchan proved all that wrong by coming on to KBC and said because you graduated from television to film yeah you didn't do it backwards true it was considered backwards I think one has to evolve with the times and and kind of work in and around it and with it uh the lot of uh I was being offered a lot of Ott shows and uh I kind of chose aranyak and there was a time where I actually said", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-66", "text": "aranyak and there was a time where I actually said no to one of the shows which went on to become such a big hit and in fact in every nomination was at par with me every 15 minutes you're saying this have you realized that I left that and that became yeah I left so many things and that became such a big hit and aranyakane uh you know with the uh release I said yeah did I gamble on the wrong horse what did I do but then I intentionally chose aranyak over on other ones because the others were again I was playing myself you know people have seen me that Sharky ladki thing is there I wanted to do something some completely different from what people have seen you know me do I didn't I hate talking about myself in third person but I'll have to say this here of the typical raveena Tandon what you expect of you know again playing High Society or you know Posh clothes and being shared key ladki and that's when I I", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-67", "text": "being shared key ladki and that's when I I actually chose aranyak over all the others that I was offered because that's what what gave me the chance to even challenge myself as to what what more and what else can I do as an actor and what about uh television you've done sporadically you've done uh yeah yeah I have I had done one show television show that time on Sahara TV called uh Sai Bibi gulam sorry huh yeah but it's more I think ODT is is something that you're more comfortable with then I've been doing reality TV no judging that you've been doing I've done is that fun that's a lot of fun I tell people you get to wear the best clothes you wear the best jewelry you get to look pretty and then you get to sit and someone else out that normally the media does that to us clothes is a lot right you're in Star and everything that you put on Instagram on Twitter everybody let's say oh my God cannot tell", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-68", "text": "Twitter everybody let's say oh my God cannot tell she still can give the younger actresses for run for their money what fun how do you pick your clothes it's it's it do you love you have a stylist but I ultimately I choose what I want to wear like I don't just blindly follow what the stylist give me because sometimes you have to know what is suits your body type as well so that's important looking good feeling good that's important right absolutely I feel everyone should uh get that 45 minutes out in a day for themselves and see how you feel and you feel more confident you feel much better about yourself you don't take care of yourself uh who's in who's a successful woman uh I always ask them to speak about mental health because I think it's become a big challenge these days and I feel that women who are leaders in their profession I want to know about that too how important is it for you uh for your mental well-being to have time for yourself and what", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-69", "text": "mental well-being to have time for yourself and what do you do for your well-being I think it's very important a uh yes definitely having your family rally around you especially at difficult times your friends rally around you listen to them confide in them now is the era of shrinks and you know psychologists and psychiatrists Etc but I mean I I believe in India it's always your family and your friends that that compile together and rally against you and become your support and your backbone so that's something that's very important I think it's very important for families to look out for telltale signs uh to see and to to speculate and be there at the time when when one needs them the maximum for me it's always been my family my parents have been my backbone always uh the many times where I do believe I could have fallen but I did pick myself up and walk again and and I believed and I actually followed that logic in my life so there are many times that I could", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-70", "text": "my life so there are many times that I could have been scattered but I collected myself and walked again and that is what life is all about and that's what you have to be so it's very important for you to also bring up your children teaching them that life will throw you challenges but it's up to you to have the strength to overcome so if your children were to say that they need help um you wouldn't bat an eyelid and get them no it's not yeah it's very necessary to get there's no shame in that and I think it is it it is it'll be very good that it's I think it's fantastic that my children are reaching out to tell me that that they need help you know so I feel people do should reach out what you have to say to this um thing about nepotism you said it's been exaggerated and things like that but a number of people are looking whether your daughters are going to get into films and would would you encourage them your", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-71", "text": "get into films and would would you encourage them your they will be the third generation if they decide my older daughters already married settled and doing very well for themselves uh my younger biological Russia she's been getting a lot of film offers we've been contemplating but right now she's focusing on her 12th boards and your son my son wants to become a lawyer he's interested in legal and I said legal family now so I keep saying every family should have one doctor and one lawyer for sure but uh I think he is so I mean they are not the ones who should really be then promoting nepotism but hamari industry always industry has always encouraged Talent it is not a pedigree where you come from it is how talented and hard-working you are that gives you longevity right it has never been from Karthik to Shahrukh to Deepika to anyone you Priyanka all the stalwarts today who are there who are the pillars of our industry are not from film families", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-72", "text": "pillars of our industry are not from film families they're from ranveer saying you take anyone's name today so it's not that oh it's only these people are given opportunity and Outsiders are not given an opportunity I beg to differ on that anything said against my industry I always stand up and speak aloud uh uh soda bottle opener and Sons so so and so carpetuala Sons and Daughters always so tomorrow if my daughter actually stands up and says mama I want to join the industry scientists if she's talented the audience if she's not talented recently uh or he or she or anyone so it's it's not that it's the audience is the king audience is the decider no one else can decide anyone's fate one or two breaks you can get as a nepo kid but after that if if they don't stand on your own feet yeah good audience true so it's the audience that makes or breaks you no one else can these nepotism accusations", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-73", "text": "you no one else can these nepotism accusations and all I think come from I don't know why they come from or what what it is about professions foreign whoever it is I'm saying whoever and like again I'm saying audience is King audience is the decider if you're not talented you're not hard working you're not sincere to your craft nothing can keep you here then you know about it because you've been around uh you know in several stages of your career for quite some exactly I was offered a film instantly and the next day I said yes I didn't have even a photograph of mine to show anyone else and that too not that I was seen at a film party the producer Vivek vaswani and the director saw me in open house when I'd gone with my college friends to eat pizza then they came to know my father's daughter to concert my father called the people said on my insta there are so many of these do social media people say so it doesn't", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-74", "text": "of these do social media people say so it doesn't happen that way you know yeah like even today like I told you Russia has been getting a lot of offers she's only been studying we don't even have one photographer first to put out anyway except you know she's getting a lot of film offers we are contemplating but we'll see when it's her time it'll happen it'll happen if it doesn't have to happen it won't happen she'll choose a different career so um you know recently um Mr Bachchan and uh Shahrukh Khan were in uh Calcutta and uh they spoke about this whole band culture cancel culture uh that has come in uh we saw this happening with Amir Khan's film also and then over pathan also it's happening and there are many actors who said this uh that as soon as they say something which may be politically wrong or may not be according to what the trend is there's a cancel culture that comes in and it's then every field it's", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-75", "text": "that comes in and it's then every field it's not just in films but what do you have to say about the answer is sad because I think like I said everyone is free to voice their opinion uh and yes this this boy called Bollywood thing is a very very sad thing that has happened unfortunately because of a few bad apples there are a few bad apples everywhere so because of a few bad apples an entire industry cannot be put to blame there are people who are employed who are day workers who get affected that's their Rosy Roti they take back home to their families so if you cancel culture you are actually uh you know literally what about the absolute lower rank who depends completely on our industry for livelihood so I think uh it is a sad Trend but I'm sure that there will be a correction to happen soon I'm positive and if somebody has a political line which is not with the government or which is not with the state government or central government whichever governments you do", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-76", "text": "state government or central government whichever governments you do you know I do use take a stand you know I take a stand yeah does it does I believe in something so do people turn around and tell you in the industries they do do no not in the industry but I do know I have actually faced this huh I have faced this I have faced this from a very big uh Ott organization where I could I didn't realize what that woman had against me because as soon as she walked into the room and she saw me she had these bad vibrations she gave me and she just kind of turned around and sat like this and said yeah yeah yeah we'll hear your story in a bit uh yeah no this is not what we're looking for she actually gave me that whole attitude until date I haven't worked for that Ott platformer till she's there and you didn't know why it was you know I was in shock we were like what happened what is this person all about she", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-77", "text": "what happened what is this person all about she was on the same flight with me and she walked in on the flight and I'm sitting in the front seat and I was going to look at her and say why why don't you come and sit uh with me here because I think she was way behind she walked in she knew I was sitting there she turned her face like this and walked off I faced it because of my political preferences or my political views that I've faced this treatment from this one woman yeah and she's a complete leftist I think which I got to know much later and then when it came out in the papers that she's known to be a leftist and she's known to be like this then I realized why she hasn't cast me till date or why she was behaving with me the way she behaved and I wasn't sure other way around yeah that it's like you know that yeah anybody who then I put two into two I said because I don't know", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-78", "text": "put two into two I said because I don't know her from Adams so what was this whole bad vibrations that she was sending out to me and I'm a very perceptive person I know when there's something wrong but you were like I don't care I'm gonna have my view I'm going to express it of course and I still will I've seen you know the way top-notch actors who don't take lines because they're scared and those also who went and took selfies with um uh Mr Modi it was like oh look they're trying to do this anything you speak good about the country because it is under a particular government and you're actually talking good about your country they'll they'll they'll say oh because actually according to them everything is wrong with the country because the the opposition party is really and your Awards all came much before Mr Modi came to power yeah the several awards that you got now even this year I've been getting all the words I'm saying today if you speak anything good about", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-79", "text": "I'm saying today if you speak anything good about the country okay whether whichever countries in whichever parties in power the opposite party will nail you because according to them they want you to say that everything is wrong with the country because this country this this party is ruling you understood the the psychology yeah that's the psychology so you can't even say anything good about your own country but you do of course I do I love my country I'm proud to be born Indian yeah I wouldn't have had it any other way I see a lot of other countries and I'm like oh my God I mean people talk about you know women getting yes we do have incidents but statistically unfortunately people don't know that USA has the highest statistically count of violence against women violence and rape against women that live in India ever will have with the population that we have imagine population they're still higher than us so but unfortunately over here everything will be so blown out that it will be an issue thank you very", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "af4e25ca10f0-80", "text": "out that it will be an issue thank you very much for coming because it was a pleasure listening to you talking to you all the best for your release has been trouble no not at all please go through everything thank you so much all right thank you for watching or listening in to this edition of a i podcast with Smitha prakash do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste foreign [Music]", "source": "hb4NviK0Qz8"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-0", "text": "had become so powerful he had become like a Frankenstein some of the things that he did there you would be ashamed to hear even shabik Singh had told bindran Valley we're going to have a tough fight because I can see General Bulbul Brar outside I know he's in charge of this operation and he's a tough guy he's a jutsik just like you and just like me we are all just six we fight when I saw those defenses and I saw how our troops were facing casualties when they went in it was like a boxer going into the boxing ring with one hand tied behind his back and allowed to fight with only one hand you don't know where the enemy is you don't know who the enemy is where the weapons are so you you don't have a free hand those who are empty and tears for the same botched up operation I will say let me see anyone else who would have done something better and come out successful I was born to be a", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-1", "text": "and come out successful I was born to be a soldier and carried on my life somehow Victors and some are vanquished foreign welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today my conversation is with Lieutenant General kuldeep Singh Brar a veteran of the 1971 india-pakistan War and the liberation of Bangladesh he was also the commanding officer of Operation Blue Star and remains on The Hit List of khalistani terrorists he survived an attempt on his life 10 years ago in London 89 year old Lieutenant General Barr in conversation with me jensa thank you very much for coming on the podcast we have so much to discuss with you want to talk about Operation Blue Star and want to talk about The Liberation War so let's begin with the Operation Blue Star you know many of our listeners and viewers probably are from you know the post 1980s generation they they maybe they don't know about what Punjab was in the 1980s so if you could give me a little bit of background", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-2", "text": "if you could give me a little bit of background information about what the situation was before the Army was asked to intervene you're very correct Generations after 80s don't know anything about it in the 80s or let's say in 82 83 84. things were very bad over there there was no Law and Order at all the police had become a defunct Force there was this saint who had risen from a village but he has such a charismatic personality that everyone accepted him almost like 11th Guru chap called Janelle Singh bindranwale he lived in a village called Roday but he went around giving his sermons and at that stage slowly and steadily the state of Punjab started crippling and bindran Wale was an all-powerful man there was murders there was smuggling taking place Banks being looted there was no law order at all if someone had a problem his electricity has been cut off he just had to go to bendan Valley touch his feet and say my electricity has", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-3", "text": "Valley touch his feet and say my electricity has been cut off I'm a poor Chap and Ben and Wale would call one of his assistants and give orders please tell the Deputy Commissioner by four o'clock this evening the electricity better be restored that was the situation so there was a cult built up around bhindravale and the state Administration and the state police forces were stoked totally dysfunctional right a dig of police as you know was killed and just thrown outside the golden temple yeah a lot of the police were afraid to even take any action against anyone because bindran Valley had become so powerful he had become like a Frankenstein his orders were the last orders so things were very very bad there in fact in the beginning of 1984 the feeling was very strong that they're going to declare khalistan all his tapes his speeches were all that we we are not with India this is the Hindu Raj Gandhi Raj Indra Gandhi Raj we are Sikhs", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-4", "text": "Raj Indra Gandhi Raj we are Sikhs we have more in common with the pakistanis their blood and our blood does similar so out here we are treated as second class citizens we must have our own state and therefore the feeling started building up about kalistan the movement started building up and the youth at that time there was a lot of unemployment in Punjab the youth were without jobs they had motorcycles and scooters and they roamed around with little uh pistols and revolvers and there were many gangsters so in other words Law and Order had totally broken down the feeling of kalistan was slowly building up bindran Valley was fully in control of the state and his last few tips which were circulated in The Villages said that I am here to create this new state I don't expect the Army to ever move into the golden temple if they do they'll get a bloody nose but what I want you all to do is that if the golden temple is ever attacked I want", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-5", "text": "if the golden temple is ever attacked I want you to come here in your thousands and millions and surround the forces who dare to step inside the Golden Temple these messages and recordings were being circulated All Over The Villages and the people had been motivated that if anything happens you come straight to the golden temple and therefore this was behind our mind throughout that we have to finish this operation first because the moment the news goes through the hinterland to The Villages that are darbarsav has been attacked they will all start converging towards amritsa they'll come with guns rifles Spears swords anything that they can have and what a terrible situation it would have been that the Army is inside the golden temple carrying out an operation and here we have thousands and thousands of Sikh supporters of the movement who have surrounded the army now who do we fight the people inside or the people outside it was a so this was at the background of everyone's mind that they are", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-6", "text": "was at the background of everyone's mind that they are going to declare khalistan any time at the same time thousands of police of six will converge to the golden temple so this operation must be finished as fast as possible speed was a criteria so when did you uh when were you sent to Amritsar what was the timeline given to you and what were your orders then actually on on the uh first of June I was I was to go on two months annual leave 1984 first of June 1984 first of June my leave had been sanctioned I was commanding a diversion in Merit and in the evening of the 31st of May we were all in the mess having a drink and everyone was bidding us goodbye and have a good leave sir have a nice holiday we were going to Manila in the Philippines and while we were at this dinner a phone call came from Chandigarh to say that General broad is required in the operations room in Chandigarh tomorrow by 12 o'clock your major general at", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-7", "text": "tomorrow by 12 o'clock your major general at that time I was a major general so I looked at my wife I said we better start moving now get to Delhi and then we'll go on to Chandigarh but I'll go alone you keep the tickets All The Travelers checks I'll be back by the evening there must be some conference and we take our flight so I flew into Chandigarh on the first of June 1984. they were cars waiting for me at the airport I was rushed to chandi mandar to the operations room over there I found maps on the wall people all tensed up it's a war room it was a war room I was wondering what's happening but at the same time often even for right control and eight to seven per this sort of War rooms are set up were you the senior most in that room in that room yeah no no uh General sundarji was sitting there he was the Army Commander jio CNC Western command and his chief of staff was General Dayal", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-8", "text": "Western command and his chief of staff was General Dayal Ranjit Singh Dayal lieutenant in general both were there and then his mggs Major General general staff was Major General Mehta he was also there now metha was standing with a stick to point out various things on the maps there were a number of Maps stuck up so they said take a seat take a seat I sat down there's no time to waste let's get down to business straight away he said he said yes sir who said Genesis let's get down to business straight away you know how Sunday is yeah he speaks with strength I was still in my mind wondering what is this business no idea then he said well Bulbul he called me by my nickname he says Bulbul we've called you here for a very special mission and General Mehta my mggs will now brief you of what the situation in Amritsar is the situation is very serious and we want you to move to Amritsar the moment this briefing is over and start planning the", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-9", "text": "moment this briefing is over and start planning the operation so I said so this evening I'm flying to Manila I'm on two months annual leave so he looked at General Dayal Journal there looked at him cancer they whispered to each other they spoke a few words and then he said I'm sorry your leave is canceled there's a more important job waiting for you sure you can have your leave after that I said all right so then started the briefing and in the briefing they told me how bad things were and how kalistan may be declared within the next five or six days and if kalistan is declared Pakistan would cross the border and get into India are part of Punjab just as we went into Bangladesh they would recognize kalistan they would say kalistan is recognized by Pakistan they would cross the border and start moving towards Amritsar now at that stage we would have to defend the Border so troops there to be adequate troops to defend that border so the division in Amritsar", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-10", "text": "to defend that border so the division in Amritsar there was one division in Amritsar they were given the task to defend the borders they had moved into the areas right along the front my division was in Merit I came down by air my troops were still in Merit so he said the task will be too much we'd have to stop Pakistan from entering India there's a possibility Punjab police will uh Mutiny and join in with kalistan they'll recognize kalistan and they say that is our state as it is they had become dysfunctional so we would have to then disarm the police so he was not part of this war room at this time it was just the Army okay so the police would have to be disarmed at the same time we'd be have to be defending our territory from Pakistani invasion and there would be a terrible situation of the 1947 rats like it happened in 1947. the Hindus from Punjab would be rushing out towards Delhi and haryana the", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-11", "text": "be rushing out towards Delhi and haryana the Sikhs from haryana and Delhi would be rushing into Punjab so a large number of forces would be required for rat control so the Army would have to now make sure you defend your territory against Pakistan you disarm the police that means there would be no police as it is the police was ineffective Army would have to take over complete control and at the same time you do rat control who else was there to do that control of the police has become ineffective so it would have been a very difficult task and therefore it was necessary that whatever operation we have to carry out must be done surgical operation we mustn't give them time the masses and The Villages mustn't know that we've gotten realization should be stopped at any cost so The Briefing took place right and he said to me he said today is the first I don't think we have more than four or five days so you go you get to um Amritsar there's a", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-12", "text": "you go you get to um Amritsar there's a plane waiting outside to take you to Amritsar you ask your troops to start moving from Merit Meanwhile my headquarters has given orders that the transport and everything should be kept ready and they've already been warned to be ready to move to Amritsar I had one Brigade in jalandha and to a number sir so they all had to start moving to Amritsar that itself was a would have taken them a full day by road by road and I had to move to Amrita by air a couple of my staff officers from meerut also flew down by air so he said I'll come to you on the third for your first briefing that'll give you about 48 hours to make your outline plan we'll discuss it as to how we're going to carry out this operation I said sure So and I said meanwhile can I send word to my wife in Delhi to say that our leave is canceled please return the tickets I'm not returning back I'm going", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-13", "text": "return the tickets I'm not returning back I'm going on a mission and I'll speak to you later of course so his stuff offs rang up my wife informed her because they didn't want me to waste any time to inform her General is not returning to Delhi he has been given a mission the leave is canceled you're not going to Manila he will get in touch with you later today when mission's done so this briefing ended everyone was quiet over there we didn't know what to expect but you know it's an enormous task so I saluted him and I said I will wait for you on the third so meanwhile I'll go and carry out my planning and I flew down to Amritsar I drove down to headquarters 15 Infantry Division they're they're the division in Amritsar they're the ones who should have actually been given this task because they know the golden temple they know the police forces they know who's the DG police they know who's the Deputy Commissioner they know who's the", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-14", "text": "who's the Deputy Commissioner they know who's the commissioner I'm a new man I've come from an a different area all together I've literally come from up there it is in the up with no idea about the golden temple but then one has to realize that that division had a task on the border so either I go to the Border but I wouldn't know uh what are the tasks over there they're already ready to take on the pakistanis so I was the best man to undertake this task and I left for amritsa and um went straight to the headquarters of the division I had my staff to open a war room there we set up a war room put up all the maps I said we'll have a little initial briefing first and then we will have a larger audience all police forces had been placed under my command the DG police the crpf they were now all under my command so I could call them anytime but first let me make my own plan before I called them so the", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-15", "text": "make my own plan before I called them so the whole of that day first of June um went in the thinking process how should how do we do this there were various advisors there from within the army and it was decided that it has to be a surgical operation but um there is no other way except to physically enter the Golden Temple one had earlier talked about uh an aerial operation coming by helicopters dropping people into the Golden Temple you know then they realized that it will be too dangerous because they're very heavily armed inside that Golden Temple about 2 000 of them you had Intel about how many people what are the arms and which section of the temple they're sitting in well hazy information because who was there to give you information you know the we had when I got to Amritsar I got to know that there are about two thousand of these terrorists inside they're heavily armed they've got machine guns rocket launchers grenades light machine guns and rifles country guns and they", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-16", "text": "light machine guns and rifles country guns and they have made emplacements inside the marble of the temple they've got sandbags all over they've closed all the windows closed all the doors they blocked everything they were preparing for an assault yeah yeah they were preparing for an assault but they still in their minds believed that the government of India wouldn't be strong enough to order an assault inside but they weren't strong enough I'm sorry to say this but when when the government of the day can see this kind of Weaponry going inside any place of worship they aren't strong enough they couldn't stop it from happening I mean I'm seeing it in hindsight sir you see people closed their eyes when these weapons were going and the police was too frightened of the terrorists they dare not check the vehicles they denote check what's going in and can you imagine how many vehicles come in every day every day they must be feeding thousands and thousands of people who come there to pray in the Golden", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-17", "text": "of people who come there to pray in the Golden Temple they have their Langer as you know inside the Golden Temple rice Dal Roti vegetables so they would have enough drugs for at least 15 days 15 days of cooking oil Atta ghee rice done everything was there also what I'm told is that that was an ERA when there were no um there were no those bulletproof Gates uh the frisking weapons one you know those instruments weren't there so it was easy to smuggle in granite's locket launchers within under vegetables they were coming in with these longer trucks you know the food was coming into the Golden Temple in those trucks the weapons were coming in and they were covered though the police may have got some idea about it but the idea was not accurate and there were no dogs sniffer dogs no nothing like that the police did not come near the golden temple right sir I couldn't see a man in khaki dress around there you went till the temple yeah you did yeah", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-18", "text": "you went till the temple yeah you did yeah it said that you did some kind of a Reiki to inside the temple I I did my Reiki from outside I dare not do it inside I did not stay inside because if they get hold of me I'm the commander of this operation the operation won't start they would have recognized you of course they would have recognized me there was a trap there called General shabik Singh good friends 71 walk 71 War before that when I was a Cadet in the jsw part of NDA part of the Indian military academy he was my instructor he was a captain yeah and I was a Cadet so I knew shabik Singh from that time then of course 71 war and in fact I was told uh when the operation was over by a number of these people who we had captured prisoners they said shabik Singh had told bhindwale that it's not going to be easy we're going to have a tough fight if the Army decides to come", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-19", "text": "a tough fight if the Army decides to come in because I can see General bulbulbra outside I was outside on the rooftop somewhere else he said I can see him I know he's in charge of this operation and he's a tough guy he's a jet sick just like you and just like me we are all just six we fight and it's not going to be easy we're going to have a tough time on us and you knew that General Chavez is there yeah and uh it's not going to be easy for you either be correct I knew what a crafty man he was and when I saw those defenses and I saw how our troops were facing casualties when they went in I realized that Shaw Big's planning had been superb Human Action you know in Wartime yeah and you know when you say crafty you mean I mean his craft was good his Warcraft was good so long as it was for India that's right but here he was using that craft in a terror", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-20", "text": "but here he was using that craft in a terror operation that's right right but it's still craft you see yeah he still uh knew how to defend the place so you have this uh who you you don't uh have any good things to say about him he was he wasn't and here you have this crafty jutsic whose patriotism one could never even thinks twice about you had such complete faith in it and so what happened to him unfortunately he was court-martialed um what exactly his crime was I don't know and he was dismissed from service a little before operation Brewster he was dismissed from Service as a major general so his anger he was very angry with not only the Army but with the government of India because he considered himself a very good officer a good soldier and he didn't believe he had done anything wrong but the court martial found him guilty and the verdict was uh so he decided to go to Amritsar and seek the blessings of um this cult", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-21", "text": "and seek the blessings of um this cult anyone who had any problem or trouble in Punjab they always went to seek the blessings of bendenwali so there's General Bulbul and general shabik that's it at the two ends of the fort that's right so tell me what were your instructions then obviously General sundarji knew that you and general shabeg have worked together well it was known and general santaji had a lot of faith in me a lot of confidence in me after all he was my Army Commander he I was one of his divisional commanders they had attended a number of exercises with me I had secured a competitive vacancy to go for self-college to Australia I had commanded in not only an infantry Brigade but also in Ahmed Brigade which an infantry man doesn't normally get to command after commanding the Ahmed Brigade I was sent to the United States of America to do the war Cottage so I had and from the war College I came to military operations", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-22", "text": "and from the war College I came to military operations directorate in Delhi the hot seat uh for war preparations I'd gone through all this and generally felt that here is the guy who will be able to deliver the good and it's a huge task which means it's not just an anti-terror operation it's not one Terror up it's it had larger ramifications absolutely right absolutely so now tell me you're on your third first week of June so the next day we made out our little plan that one battalion will Cordon the place one battalion will enter from this gate another one will come from that gate and we'll start this operation around about nine o'clock at night we need time to fight and we need time to clear the golden temple and it must be done before Dawn before what we call First Light a few hours only few hours only and thousands of people inside yeah because if you wait till it's daylight the news would spread now people are sleeping around so they don't know what's", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-23", "text": "people are sleeping around so they don't know what's going on and it's the age before uh cell phones and things so there's no way there was no way but by next day the news would have spread that the Indian army is inside the golden temple and people would have started rushing in so this operation had to end by Dawn and if you started it too early it's not dark enough you don't have the cover of carrying out your task so the best time we thought was around about 8 30 9 o'clock we will start this operation and be over by six o'clock or 6 30 in the morning that was the hope of course it took a little longer it went down to about 7 38 nine o'clock because akal tax wouldn't give in we were suffering heavy casualties machine guns were firing from us from places which we never imagined which we couldn't see from Within Walls from within doors there was no satellite imagery radar imagery nothing you didn't know the position of the guns no", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-24", "text": "nothing you didn't know the position of the guns no no so it was like a boxer going into the boxing ring with one hand tied behind his back and allowed to fight with only one hand because you don't have all the resources with you why you don't know where the enemy is you don't know who the enemy is where the weapons are so you you don't have a free hand resources you didn't see uh it said that you did you could have taken an anti-tank equipment you could have taken heavy machinery inside no you see but did you didn't you we didn't want any damage one of the general santaji had given me three terms of reference he said the operation must start as soon as possible but definitely in the next three or four days it it must be over the same night because of the reasons I just gave you and you must make sure that the minimum damage to the golden temple to the buildings and to human beings minimum damage there were a lot of civilians inside religious people inside", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-25", "text": "were a lot of civilians inside religious people inside you can't just shoot them at a will so you went into this action with number of uh holds your hands were tied it was you you couldn't do whatever you want you couldn't just walk in with tanks that's what we said that tanks anti-tanks machine guns did they go in at all bulldozers no no because the entrance is so narrow you can't you can't go in you can't go no you have to start breaking the walls and all so there's a lot of disinfo the reason I'm saying this is because uh gents up there's a lot of disinformation that there was Heavy Weaponry that went in you're saying a tank tank one tank was brought in uh around about three o'clock or four or four o'clock or five o'clock in the morning when we were suffering very heavy casualties they came in from lira broke that door and came onto the parakrama with one aim the aim was they have a very bright light called", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-26", "text": "the aim was they have a very bright light called the Xenon lamp you know uh it's it it blinds you it blinds you the idea was that they will switch on their lights and the people in the occult from where we were getting the heaviest amount of firing most of our casualties took place in front of the occulta so they were firing from the akalta onto the Indian army which was in front of the that's right so we wanted these tanks now or one tank or two tanks to try and blind those people so that at least for a little time you're blinded and our troops can get in right now unfortunately when the first light came on it lasted not even one minute a few seconds and got fused these bulbs get fused very fast then we brought in another tank how did those tanks come in so you might they must have broken some walls or something the path is too narrow they were able to enter the paragramas through a gate okay there was a gate there", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-27", "text": "through a gate okay there was a gate there and they had to break a little bit of the perkrama to get on yeah so putting lights on these people to blindfold blind them and put our troops forward didn't work the firing continued from all directions and we didn't want to bring in heavy weapons because of the Restriction given minimum force no damage to buildings no damage to the temple Etc so the akal tax was not fired upon by the Indian army no no okay they were firing from the akalta the Indian army took the casualties but did not fire only am I right you're right okay we did not fart on the occult we were firing at the people who were outside the occult Maybe if someone is far from inside the occult tuck to return as far someone may have fought you can't say at that time of the night if anyone did or did not but the orders were not too far towards the other but then the fact is what do you do um you you", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-28", "text": "the fact is what do you do um you you just allow your men to keep dying you go to take some action you were there inside the temple no I was outside did you get information that within X number of hours so many soldiers of ours are done how much did how many people did we lose in that matter of eight to ten hours in those eight to ten hours we must have lost three two hundred three to four hundred and what were the casualties on the other side would you know how many people died on the other side on the other side yeah on the terrorist side on the terrorist side maybe about five to six hundred okay and there must have been some civilian casualties too some civilian casualties in fact they weren't allowing the civilians to go out the civilians were used as Shields a shield by the terrorists by the terrorists okay and in fact um uh on the day that we were to go in my my officers started making calls on loudspeakers from outside", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-29", "text": "my officers started making calls on loudspeakers from outside the golden temple to say that we're going to come in if you want to fight it's up to you we would suggest you avoid Bloodshed and we come to a peaceful agreement but if you insist on fighting okay but please let the civilians the women the children the men innocent people let them come out hmm no one came out these announcements went on for two hours no one came out after two hours seven or eight old sick guys came out okay too feeble to stay inside and from them we learned that they're not letting the others come out they hold they've held on to them okay so you debriefed those who came out yeah you did yeah we briefly debriefed them so now the question was when they were not taking heat to our loudspeaker announcements how long can you go on delaying the operation because the longer you delay it you're not going to end by Dawn it will go become 10 o'clock 11 o'clock Twelve", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-30", "text": "will go become 10 o'clock 11 o'clock Twelve O'Clock in the daytime in the daytime you'll have thousands of six all over there so are you get at this time getting calls from Delhi from chandi mandir saying javandar or was a date given to you beforehand how did it happen it was a date given to you for entry or was it left to you to decide when to enter no General sandhuji had set up his command post where was that outside the golden temple on one of the on one of the buildings I had my command post I was in touch with General sandhuji on the radio all the time all my subunit commanders from all the battalions were in touch with me all the time how many casualties they've suffered what is happening where what how much of the ground have they gained what difficulties are they finding so we were in touch all the time so when what happens when you enter when when the troops enter Indian troops initial I'll tell", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-31", "text": "when the troops enter Indian troops initial I'll tell you um what is the formation first let me tell you that on that morning when we went in that morning I decided to address all the troops who were going to go in about five battalions or four battalions I started at five o'clock in the morning went to one battalion then to the next one until the third I spoke to them and I explained to them what the situation was I said the situation is terrible they're holding this religious place as a fortress they're determined on establishing kalistan there's no law an order left in the state we have to go in we have to recover the golden temple from these terrorists if there's anyone amongst you who doesn't want to go in for religious reasons or any other reasons I don't hold it against you just stand up and stand aside your commanding officers are here I order them that no action would be taken against you first Battalion no one got up and second", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-32", "text": "you first Battalion no one got up and second Battalion no one got up Third Battalion one young sick boy he got up I said no problem son you don't have to go in you have strong feelings I told this you I said he won't go in he says you've got me wrong sir You Got Me Wrong sir not only do I want to go in I want to be the first one to go in I want to be the first one to reach the account and to get bindunware amazing I said you're a very brave man I salute you and I told the commanding officer his platoon will be the first to enter and he will be the platoon Commander with these troops there Brave fellow Captain Reina Sikh boy you belong to the Jammu area you have a lot of six there also yeah there was a chief no General Reiner there was a chief also there was a chief right now yeah but he was uh no he was not from no yeah so I spoke", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-33", "text": "no he was not from no yeah so I spoke to everyone he was the only one who got up and said he wants to go in okay so now the operation started his platoon was the first to enter the Golden Temple and as they entered fire came from all directions heavy firing on them I I could hear people dying they can't make progress he said I'm trying very hard but there's a lot of firing going on and from underground tunnels also there was firing going on you know from the walls so then I had to um Russian more troops and I told his commanding officer I said how is he he said he's been very badly wounded both his legs have been shot Captain Reina I said evacuate him bring him out immediately I have an ambulance waiting here I'll send him to the hospital straight away he said he's refusing to come out he's crawling he's going on all his foes he's carrying on he says I'm going to reach they are called I'm not", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-34", "text": "I'm going to reach they are called I'm not going back I said now forcibly because he's bleeding so heavily forcibly pick him up and bring him out so he was forcibly brought out sent to hospital immediately evacuated both legs amputated both legs amputated I got him the Ashoka chakra the highest award that you can give to a person not an actual War he got the award of Ashoka chakra he went into Raj Bhavan I was in Raj Bhavan the day the award was given to him he was not married so his father and mother accompanied him he was in a wheelchair without his legs and the president instead of you have to go up the two steps to receive your medal from the president the president came down to steps to pin the award on him because he couldn't go up Captain Reina and I was there with tears in my eyes and everyone in the audience had tears in the eyes that this is what our Indian soldiers are we are ready to give our", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-35", "text": "our Indian soldiers are we are ready to give our life and when I spoke to the Troops on that first morning I told them I said we are not going against any enemy we are not going against Pakistan or China or an external Force just remember we are going in there against our own people who have taken up arms against the State against the country who want who have become creators to this country and they want to establish their own state so when you go in there don't think you're going to war you're not going to war you're going to get hold of these people these myths-informed people who have got onto the wrong path and I want you to keep that in mind when you are fighting this action these were my briefings to them so and they were now all prepared for it so we suffered casualties they suffered casualties who took out uh bindrawali and who took out shabeg we don't know they were inside their command posts in the golden temple was he fighting too no", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-36", "text": "in the golden temple was he fighting too no you know the uh there's so many things I can tell you about but I don't want to but he was no military commander right no no no he was a a religious man who could give you sermons so because I'm simply asking because now there's this whole um photographs and everything yeah hey these photographs and I can in the in the social media he's painted to be some kind of uh um military uh person some hero nowhere nowhere in fact some of the things that we discovered about him inside the Golden Temple I won't tell you some of the things that he did there um you would be ashamed to hear even and some of the things that we saw were too horrible for me to speak about General shabek you you were with him he was a comrade you you worked with him in the service he was a soldier he died there well how does it feel when you see the body when you see that one person with", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-37", "text": "see the body when you see that one person with whom you shared so much yeah and he's there I had no feelings left because I said how could how can he have done this how could he he was a soldier when you joined the army put on your uniform you take an oath that I will preserve the Integrity of the country I will fight for this country I said here is a soldier who is not fighting for his country but he's fighting against his country so he was a traitor and there is nothing about his past that redeemed him you feel so although I admired the man before before earlier on but when I saw him here I had no admiration left for him he was doing something um which you wouldn't expect a disciplined Soldier to do yeah but everyone can't feel a sense of what a waste so he was found dead still holding his revolver in his hand yeah I believe so so tell me uh gel sub that operationally could things have been done better because a lot", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-38", "text": "operationally could things have been done better because a lot is said that maybe if the operation had been delayed by two days I don't know because I was still a student in those days but what I've read is that people say maybe if the operation had been postponed by two more days or or if you see what happened with operation Black Thunder that that was a better uh planned operation we were I'll kill you on Black Thunder first hmm foreign there were no strong religious leaders in there it was a normal Gurdwara by that time they knew that the Army has gone into once before one before they'll go come in here also so there was no way that they were going to fight or offer a fight or anything they just meekly surrendered and I think the weight out was done right yeah the Rajiv Gandhi also at that time decided that there was so much disinformation which happened in the previous operation in Black Thunder we had our cameras focused there all the time yeah so it was", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-39", "text": "cameras focused there all the time yeah so it was under media Glacier there was that fog of disinformation that's right which was there in a blue star it was not there in Black the media was sent away from Amritsar yes all these people media fellows that I know when I meet them they say we weren't there we were sent away Mark Tully and the others yeah they were told two days before that uh that leave because nothing's happening we learned a lesson and therefore in kargil Ola media was present when the operation was taking place in kargil right so Black Thunder was I I don't call it any operation you know they just um a flushing out of terrorism but whereas a blue star was a uh they were fighting fighting for death you know fighting for what they they believed in they believed in their own State their own country their own thing their own uh uh they looked at us as enemies they consider themselves a different class of people just 40 years later when you", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-40", "text": "different class of people just 40 years later when you look back could we have done things differently I don't think so we've thought about it often after the operation I discussed for General sandhuji also a number of times a lot of things had been discussed can it be done in any other way if you delete as it is kalistan is going to be declared any day then you would regret that I delayed it and they declared khalistan and Pakistan was actively supporting you see and then all those problems would start at the same time the news would be going around the armies are there we have not started our operation the crowds would have started coming in towards the Golden Temple foreign so maybe we wouldn't be able to start our operation with all this civilians converging on us from all directions General sandhuji was a very intelligent man he thought of everything before doing this in in your military history in the annals of military history will this be seen as a botched up operation semi-bashed", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-41", "text": "this be seen as a botched up operation semi-bashed up operation successful operation those those who are anti antiers will say botched up operation I will say let me see anyone else who would have done something better and come out successful right it it was not easy I I know what nightmares I've been having after that even not easy to carry out an operation like that the the post-traumatic stress disorder that one here is about what it is the most difficult most difficult orders I've given in my life to my soldiers you you're being fired upon you will not return first someone is firing at you from the occult or from the Harminder sub you will not return fire you take the fire and die but you will not return fire you know some of the most unreasonable orders you give to a soldier who says I'm here to fight if I'm being shortered I must shout back and you say no you're not going to shoot back so sometimes I I have this feeling in me that maybe I was I", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-42", "text": "have this feeling in me that maybe I was I couldn't sleep for many nights thinking how did I order this give this past such orders these were you were told to give these orders right yeah yeah they will not return they will not fire in the direction of occult or the Herman themselves Joseph do you know of any operation before or after that that this has happened because I know of gerardi Sharif was done there was that the charary Sharif flushing out of terrorists but there was no such instruction given uh at that stage Sharif Kashmir Kashmir no yeah there were militants lodged in there but uh it was the same thing that don't don't pull down don't do it but the militants had said we will not let you in and we will pull this down but we will not let you come in so even though it was lined up with explosives they didn't do it it wasn't done so have you had this kind of an experience before or after that no nothing where a", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-43", "text": "an experience before or after that no nothing where a place of worship was flushed out by terrorists no and your men were told don't fire on the harmandir no you've been under Terror attacks threats for the past 40 years tell us tell us about that incident in London when an assassination attempt was made on you okay it wouldn't be uh you you can live under that kind of a threat for two years five years you have done that for 40 years I'm going to read out one part you said uh suddenly Four Strong Sikhs grabbed me one attacked my wife I had very little time to react they tried to kill me with their care pants yeah being a soldier my first instinct was to fight back and not give in I kicked and they first slashed I abused I shouted I did everything here and first they slashed my back yeah they finally slashed my throat they were all arrested and sentenced to imprisonment ranging from 10 to 15 years where did they it was first", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-44", "text": "10 to 15 years where did they it was first at my back then he missed my throat it went on my cheek then here but when I went for surgery immediately after that they rushed me to hospital the the surgeon said luckily they had not gone deep enough okay you see I was what had happened on the in that attack is that in this two minutes or one minute that we were fighting he was hurting me and I was kicking him and all that sort of stuff one of them dropped his telephone are you already in your 70s by now when the attack happened you're in your 70s yeah but you hit back kick back yeah as a soldier what joints you have two choices either give up and say okay take me or you fight back so your immediate Instinct was to fight back if I had not fought back I'd be lying on the floor dead your wife was with you no my wife was with me but one of them had pushed her and taken and banged out", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-45", "text": "them had pushed her and taken and banged out next to the wall she couldn't see what was happening okay and how many were there on you four you fought back four men four assassins yeah you fight back four assassins and they leave you bleeding on the ground yeah because by that time the police no not police um there's a bar close by people from the bar from somewhere else my wife was shouting help help some passes by were coming in so they ran they ran because they they saw people coming in did you at that point think that you don't stand a chance because General vaidya had already been assassinated uh by then yeah you must have always known that that one day I'm going I still say that I still say that um it's just a question of time now they're going to get me one day or the other uh I'm now going to be 89 this year okay I've lived my life in any case even a natural death would be my 1991 92 so I'm ready", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-46", "text": "death would be my 1991 92 so I'm ready to go how does your family live with that with that knowledge that assassins can get you anytime well there's nothing they can do about it they just have that worry chance of it said that you know in 2014 a controversy broke out that a British MP claimed at that time that you know these these right that the SAS said they may have gone to Delhi or Indira Gandhi or whatever no one came to me or to Amritsar uh it's uh I've been interviewed on this number of times I say all lies it was a purely Indian army operation purely no one from outside how do you react when you get to know that you know there's this revival of the kalistani movement which is happening funded aided uh encouraged in Canada and in the UK at times I go to UK I go to UK I go to South Hall I see pictures everywhere everyone is you know I said well what what's happening it is our", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-47", "text": "I said well what what's happening it is our uh does photo which is going abroad or in our Indian people who have gone abroad who are more Pro kalistan and all that than those who are in India are you worried at all that in Punjab there is a Resurgence of this movement yes yes yes Pakistan is also assisting them you see in Canada London Canada America Pakistan all together they they want a Resurgence here at that time you know you mentioned about a and then it is only then that the Indian army was asked to go in when the police was totally then you have somebody like KPS Gill yeah uh who took on the post uh 1984 who took on the task of eliminating terrorism from uh Punjab now he too is demonized yeah a hell of a lot by this whole kalistani this new kalistani movement what do you think his role was uh in in Punjab at that time hello as ggp his role was [Music] to to to Stamp Out terrorism in Punjab he", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-48", "text": "to to to Stamp Out terrorism in Punjab he did it very well I admire DGP Gill I think he did it very well this is one I'll show you this is now they placed a bounty of 250 000 I don't know how many 25 crores or something online 250 000 dollars so this this Carries On they send me messages from there also they send you messages that they will eliminate you they send me messages that you you we're going to eliminate you you know on the electronic media somewhere or the other through some means get my email address send me a message is there any sense of regret General sub that maybe it shouldn't have happened the way it did what shouldn't have happened the operation Operation Blue Star no no one no one wants an operation but what do you do do you uh allow the Indra Gandhi allowed him to become a Frankenstein you you could see bindon Valley every year what was happening but when he reached um The Pinnacle now to finish him", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-49", "text": "he reached um The Pinnacle now to finish him off now destroy him it's too late so you feel that the civilian Administration didn't do enough the administration the political leadership they allowed this cult to build to bring and you because you're from the same area as bindrawali you you saw this happening in Punjab I mean your relatives and all must have you you're from a fauji family an illustrious fauji family yourself you said third generation Soldier secondary you know so you must have seen this happening there right yeah you knew what was happening yeah but obviously the political leadership didn't want to listen to anything no they they had their own little um between akali and Congress and you know their own political problems support so and so they didn't want any and they allowed this culture of bhindra Wale to continue to continue yeah and uh Jessup if you if you were to look back could the operation have been handled better I don't know I uh how am I to say that someone", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-50", "text": "know I uh how am I to say that someone else can say that I I feel we did whatever we could to the best uh in the best manner that we had okay so uh let me now uh now that we've Operation Blue Star let me get on to uh the 1971 uh War yeah first let me find this picture for you of these four fellows who tried to kill me there was one woman and three men you you knew that they that they were Sikhs who were attacking you that they were kalistanis yeah when they came towards you how what were they wearing exactly like this yeah exactly I guess this picture is taken at that time my mother's brother happy-go-lucky fellow seek we are all just sick happy-go-lucky fellow lived in London married to um a person in London only when I used to go there come on let's go to the pub let's go to the bar we'd have a drink here there and the other but after this operation what came over him sitting in London", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-51", "text": "after this operation what came over him sitting in London he'd go to South Hall every day he would be praying from morning to night he broke off all ties with the entire family he said I want to I'm going to kill this fellow Bulbul when I can and um this is your relative my mother's brother he it went into him that the six um were killed by us so I was on a visit in London and now he started suffering from cancer he was in hospital so I said I'd like to meet him so his daughter said I don't know whether he'll be in a condition to meet you or he whether he wants to meet you or not I said you ask him say Bulbul is here on a little holiday and he wants to meet you because he has heard that you're very unwell he wants to wish you well and wants to meet you if he says yes I'll go and if he says no I won't go in so she said he said okay so I went", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-52", "text": "in so she said he said okay so I went in he was lying in bed long beard doing this so I put out my hand to him and I said Bunty Bulbul here you know he started crying tears coming down his eyes he held my hand grasped my hand and he said bulbula I'm sorry I feel so sorry that I behaved in such a manner I cursed myself for it you did what you had to do I said you wanted to kill us all he says the biggest mistake of my life he was immediate relation mother's brother did you lose family friends also yes family and friends yes friends who just wouldn't forgive you for yeah even though you were just doing your duty yeah those who are very you know religious bound and they're not prepared to forgive they still hold it he's responsible he's responsible Joseph if I may ask um why were you picked I mean you were a judge sick too right they could have picked up somebody else to do this operation General they", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-53", "text": "picked up somebody else to do this operation General they could have taken anybody why a judge sick to do this I don't know whether they thought of all those things is it thought of at all in an army is a person's religion a consideration when doing an operation like this no no uh what what general sandhuji tells me um he says General vaidya told him you you're going to carry out this operation it was Western command Army Commander you pick up a general your choice select anyone you want so he said I selected I had confidence in him I know him I picked him up so generally personally picked me up without thinking uh whether I'm a Sikh or a Gujarati or a party or a Christian I'm a soldier and when you're a soldier you don't think whether you're sick or a judge or a Brahman or what you know you you you're fighting for your nation so so yes I get that but you know what happened in the forces then there were there were", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-54", "text": "happened in the forces then there were there were rumors or not there were incidents of mutiny there were there were times when people took off their uniform and said we cannot after this operation do you fear that something similar could happen now is the Indian army inured towards that kind of that kind something like that happening ever again it all depends on leadership as it is provided if your officers lead from the front if your officers are there to spend time with the troops with the soldiers if the soldiers have confidence in their offices nothing like this will happen but if the officers don't bother about their soldiers they're out having their drinks going to the bar going for parties going here and there then you cannot command respect you cannot command following they won't follow you in war it has to be implicit trust a soldier has to have implicit trust in an officer so it depends on the quality of officers and I don't think today you have the quality of officers that we had maybe", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-55", "text": "you have the quality of officers that we had maybe 30 years ago or 40 years ago we have become more materialistic hmm we're thinking of building a house buying a new car doing this doing that olden days I see my own father he retired as a general they were different tribe all together so one concept when you were in uh in the 1971 War The Liberation of Bangladesh what was it like then what were the operations that you conducted I believe uh General shabek I keep coming back to General shabek I believe he was involved in training the mukti bahini that's right at that stage what was what was your area that you could do because now time has passed I guess you can tell us my area was to take my Battalion from the most unexpected route into Dhaka okay Dhaka so there were large formations with tanks coming towards Dhaka from always pakistanis never expected that a force will come in from here I had to cross the brahmaputra river there's no", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-56", "text": "had to cross the brahmaputra river there's no Bridge on the brahmaputra River and to cross a river take your whole Battalion across and then get behind the enemy my task was get behind the enemy trap him there and then we have a para drop at a place called tangal then you link up with them and move on to Dhaka how to cross brahmaputra river so we decided the only way is we go in country boats huge fishing boats how many men were you we were about 600 okay so about 30 to 40 in a boat about 20 boats so in three days or four days we collected all these boats then we collected bullet cuts about 40 Bullock cuts we said we'll put our heavy weapons and ammunition and rations on these Bullock Cuts because once we've crossed the brahmaputra river how do we start advancing we have no trucks we have no transport we are on foot man pack basis so the bull accounts will carry our luggage so we mustered these boats", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-57", "text": "will carry our luggage so we mustered these boats we got into the boats one person with a torch in each boat fleshing the torch here flashing because we crossed at night at night we went across the brahmaputra river silently Pakistan is there on the other side they didn't know that we are crossing the brahmaputra river we got across and we got behind this post called jamalpur and we dug in there in Paddy fields I could see the post in front two nights we stayed dug in the behind this jamalpur post buses and trucks and all moving on the road we kept quiet they didn't know any soldiers sitting here carried out a little reconnaissance at night found out exactly where these pakistanis are and we were planning our attack to attack jamalpur now meanwhile they got the scent that there's someone some people sitting behind us in the Paddy fields in The Paddy Fields they said must be mukti by name there's certain the other must have been", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-58", "text": "by name there's certain the other must have been filtrated they must be there will rush them meanwhile General nyazi sent them a message to say that Indian army is coming from all directions Dhaka is now being threatened we are short of forces you fall back on DACA now so the whole Battalion 31st baluch they got ready with their weapons they got into their vehicles and suddenly from The Paddy fields we see headlights coming towards us you know they're they're rushing down the road coming down the road in a single file like this so I had groups on both sides of the road with rocket launchers and all that fire ambushed them on the road Ambush them on the road they started jumping out of the vehicles shouting Allahu Akbar this and the others some people started charging towards our trenches we were not wrenches in The Paddy Fields some are lying on the road dead wounded some are rushing towards us and we knocked them out while they're coming hundreds of them were killed", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-59", "text": "out while they're coming hundreds of them were killed in that operation eventually a group came out from jamalpur carrying a white flag surrender be surrender so I sent a major major number to go in there and accept their surrender the same who became General number okay he was Major then he was a major he was my company Commander his brother in the Foreign Service yeah he was Ambassador and wrote no it's very good family so I told number you go get the surrender so they surrendered and then now how do we and how did we get to that place or we were marching and Bullocks were carrying our weapons and our um rations so the tangai paradrop has not yet happened when this yet happened okay now the day we this action took place in jamalpur 4 pm para drop was to take place at tangoil 4pm and now it was 6 A.M how do we get there and if we don't get there and a para drop takes place Pakistan sitting", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-60", "text": "get there and a para drop takes place Pakistan sitting ducks would come with their tanks and all that yeah so I sent my officers including number I said let's muster whatever transport we can buses trucks fire engines automobiles Auto rickshaws Vans multitude of vehicles we mustered we all got into those vehicles and started moving towards tangail four o'clock a paratroopers dropped there quarter past four we are in tangail and they were also marathas the paracuper second marathas we were first marathos is and we had their chap called tiger Siddiqui from Bangladesh she was waiting there also and then from what a warrior Warrior there are stories about tiger Siddiqui which are like you're like a warrior he would March like Hitler gestapo step you know he saluted us and all that and then we moved to Dhaka now we get to the outskirts of Dhaka we are not in communication with anyone in the Indian army we are not in radio touch with anyone we can't", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-61", "text": "are not in radio touch with anyone we can't speak to anyone somehow out of range just than the other we get to a place called mirpur Bridge which is Outskirts of Dhaka and we dug in we said we can see Dhaka in front on the radio we're hearing announcements from manic Shaw to say surrender I ask you all to surrender we'll be given Geneva Convention treatment we look after you why do you want to give your lives please surrender oh you heard this legendary speech of general not once not twice it he is repeated it about six times you know yeah I'm asking you to surrender you're listening to it and saying how do we tell people in India in shillong and Calcutta that we are already Dhaka is already falling so my Brigade Commander with chap called Brigadier Claire it's also a sardarji and my jio civil General nagra very fine man yes so nagra said why don't we send a petrol to the bridge to", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-62", "text": "don't we send a petrol to the bridge to see if there's anyone there we sent a patrol we found the bridge abandoned pakistani's had left and gone back to Dhaka there was a telephone there so one of those telephones you revolved like this so the reply came from the other end headquarter Eastern command here at headquarter Eastern command means headquarter Eastern command Dhaka not India yeah sure so uh Brigadier Claire said can we speak to General nyazi please who's calling he said we're from the Indian army had been in college together in law old friends so Nazi came onto the phone and he said hello he said Abdullah is Abdullah Abdullah this is where are you he said I'm at mirpur Bridge we are waiting to come in we are hearing manic shows request for you to all surrender but we are not receiving any reply we are not in touch with anyone he says I have already given orders to my troops to move into the barracks and to be ready to", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-63", "text": "move into the barracks and to be ready to surrender we are ready to surrender but we don't know how to inform India and the Indian army that we are ready to surrender we I don't know how to respond to manicure's speeches so gandhar said well we are here so he said what I'll do is I'm sending General Jamshed in a car about 20 or 30 of you come in I'll send you six cars we'll meet in the operations room and we'll discuss here so the six cars arrived with a flag flying which flag flying the general jump Shades but this could be a trap could be a trap but then at that time soldiers take a take a chance isn't it could be a trap but we said we will we will take this risk so we got into these cars because by that time have you called back headquarters you haven't you take the decision there you took the decision General nagara took the decision we're driving in uh with General Jamshed asking the driver", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-64", "text": "driving in uh with General Jamshed asking the driver what is that he says the university and what is that that's the race course so we get into headquarter Eastern command and a young officer comes out maybe staff officer to uh analogy he said General nyazi is in the office and Brigadier clear walk in I'm just along with them they Embrace each other he says hello gandhar we say hello Abdullah how are you unbelievable how are you so he says we have we have lost the battle I've ordered the troops into Barracks they're all in barracks but I don't know how to inform you all he said well we'll come to your headquarters and we'll continue trying to get in touch with India what's his body language like General niyazi is he looking dejected depressed they were expecting the seventh fleet to come they were expecting help from Pakistan dejected he was feeling let down that West Pakistan has let them down what was his like you're saying he got up and hugged yeah and", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-65", "text": "you're saying he got up and hugged yeah and he's what did he say old school boy friendship you know okay uh really then we caught him was he armed he had his revolver yeah okay we were all armed okay um so somehow or the other from his office through one of our channels we managed to get through to shillong passed a message there to General Jacob Chief of Staff to say we are already in Dhaka we are sitting in nyazi's office he is ready to surrender but he doesn't know how to inform you and we are not in touch with anyone either so he said let me tell the Army Commander so we spoke to General Aurora and they said Jacob said I'm coming down by helicopter I land there and then set up a meeting between General nyazi and me the General Aurora also came no dip for the surrender no no surrender hasn't taken place yet hasn't yet yeah so set up a meeting for Jacob and um so the two of them sat in", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-66", "text": "Jacob and um so the two of them sat in the office and they had a power and he said we are ready to surrender so so then I'll ask my Army Commando to come down and then between you and the Army Commander you sign the documents of surrender so it was decided that 431 430 surrender ceremony will take place at the race course in Dhaka all the 90 000 troops there will prayed General Nazi will hand over his revolver to General Aurora the troops will put their weapons down and surrender and then the surrender ceremony will take place for which General Aurora arrived for the surrender ceremony General Arora General Jacob Naval gentleman RV designed the surrender I was there and then you were there when the surrender yeah I was there yeah okay we were all good uh with Nazi and all at that time then what was the mood in the troops who have to put down there very sad and dejected and but what can you do some Victors and", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-67", "text": "and but what can you do some Victors and some are vanquished so did they expect to be uh taken care of as per the Geneva conventor did they actually think that be Massacre no they hope that Indians would keep them they were more frightened by anywhere we must say about 500 they were frightened that they would be lynched because they had committed genocide there so they were frightened they'd be lynched by the muktibani yeah so surrender ceremony took place they laid down the weapons then went in for a cup of tea did you hold did you have to hold back the muktibani and that too you had to my God throughout while we are in Dhaka we didn't allow the muktibani to go near any of them they would have killed them they would have killed them you couldn't stop them no but you could understand right yeah they had seen that people killed raped looted bloodied everything Village after Village I was placed in command of one of the prisoner of", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-68", "text": "was placed in command of one of the prisoner of war camps yeah so I said let me talk to the officers so they all lined up and I went around meeting the officers and I said I'm Colonel Brar he said I'm so and so so and so so and so I said don't worry about your War but you'll be looked after under the Geneva Convention they were looking up like that till I came to a particular officer he's looking down so why don't you look up son so he looked up he was Colonel Akbar of the baluch regiment who he and I did the Staff College in Australia together in 1965. I said Akbar he said Bulbul I said I'm sorry today you're the one question we are the victors but you're wearing khaki uniform I'm wearing olive green uniform we are both soldiers we are both fighting for our countries and we are friends as soldiers now first of all give me the phone number of nazreen your wife in Lahore let", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-69", "text": "phone number of nazreen your wife in Lahore let me ring her up and tell her you're going to be safe you'll be home soon and this that and the other and in the evening we'll have kebabs together so that I rang up nazreen she answered I said nazreen this is just calling to tell you Akbar is with me he is okay we are going to have kebabs together this evening please don't worry all that in the evening we had kebabs together amazing you know what it is to be a Vanquish Soldier because you were there in the 62 world yeah yeah you know what it is yeah it is so uh war was over uh they all laid down their arms and I stayed on in Dhaka till mujibo Rahman came back you know Rahman had been arrested and taken away uh sent Away by Pakistan he never saw the war no he never saw the war that eventually the UK gave him a royal Air Force Comet plane and flew him", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-70", "text": "a royal Air Force Comet plane and flew him down to Dhaka he arrived in Dhaka at the same airport and everyone was there thousands and thousands of people you know and what a welcome he got yeah arrived but those memories don't go away easily you know I I I can still see myself standing in Darker mujibo Raman and all this yeah in fact when we were entering Dhaka Joy hind joy joy joy Hinds fantastic it was yeah but there you are just a life well lived any regrets when you look back in your career I can't even say career as a soldier but your life as a soldier no regrets uh I knew I'm going to be a soldier when I was five years old I saw my father as a major general every morning wearing his uniform and I said there's a way I want to go into I want to join the Army I want to join the same regiment the morator light Infantry and I I was born to be a soldier", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "85f4e57b5803-71", "text": "and I I was born to be a soldier and carried on my life and that life still carries on my only regret now is I'm getting old every day and I'm no longer young and um you're 89 years young you have amazing memory and you you explain chronologically exactly what happened in 71 and Operation Blue Star so hats off to you and wishing you health happiness always and be safe thank you very much it's a pleasure speaking I I need people like you thank you for watching or listening into this podcast do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste foreign [Music]", "source": "JJI4eR-G5AM"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-0", "text": "I fundamentally believe for every political party its time has to come 10 years of Moto G if you are not able to bring BJP in tamilnadu how will you bring BJP is expanding now we are in the expanding phase we are having a booth President we are going to all parts of Tamil Nadu we have lost a sitting General Secretary of the party was hacked to death outside his home by Islamic fundamentalist till now we have lost more than 100 karyakartas so from the outside perspective for people who say tamilnadu is a very safe State Tamil Nadu is a state where Terror exists what the way DMK is trying to do it they will try to make it uh again they will try to play the Delhi versus Tamil card that is the only card left in their Armory they don't have any other thing for them they have created an impression of Delhi Asaf in Delhi some four or five Roberts are sitting inside a room and they want to loot each", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-1", "text": "inside a room and they want to loot each state and take money into it you put a shoe on the t-shirt and a jeans pant you walk people call that isra I think padiator is not that padhyatra should have a larger purpose Madam it is not you are angry with modiji you want to do it you're angry with this you want to do it lot of media especially from Delhi is focusing on the governor speech but you have to understand what happened before the governor's speech the governor was made to feel unwelcome they spoke ill of governor in the will of the house they say the governor has added some lines to it and give it his own speech he did not add a single line of his own this watch is something which I wanted to wear because the watches of the Rafael cockpit a party in power is asking a common man show the bill which of course I am showing April the day I start my father yatra I try to push some", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-2", "text": "I start my father yatra I try to push some things very fast I am not like a traditional politician or a lot of things to mature I want to put more firewood and and cook faster but right or wrong that is my style foreign welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is Anna Malai kuppuswamy the State president of the BJP in the southern Indian state of Tamil Nadu annamalai hails from The karur District in Congo region of Tamil Nadu he's an engineer holds a master's degree in Business Administration from the Indian Institute of Management and then became a police officer in 2011. not content with a successful eight-year stint in the Indian Police Service annamalai joined the BJP in 2020 and within a year he was appointed the president of the state unit animal IG you are emerging as one of the sharpest young politicians in the country whenever somebody talks about young politicians who are going to matter in by 2024", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-3", "text": "politicians who are going to matter in by 2024 your name is taken uh in that um in the South the BJP has not really managed to make much inroads over the past several decades since its existence um you were seen as this white Ray of Hope by your party in Tamil Nadu so what is it that is your brief and what are you expected to deliver in Tamil Nadu uh thank you so much Madam for having me in your podcast so I fundamentally believe for every political party its time has to come whatever we push and pull certain conducive factors has to be there for a political party to emerge if you look at Tamil Nadu for a long time we had big stalwarts there uh people like jalalitha Madam people like yeah they're like very very people people bigger than their shoes uh people who can pull crowds uh people just thought they can't do any wrong that there is a kind of confidence they generated very importantly Dr MGR now what has happened", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-4", "text": "very importantly Dr MGR now what has happened in the last four five years we see a lot of vacuum in tamilnadu though a lot of parties are fighting for that space and they need a larger than life leader kind of tamilnadu people are always used to this kind of an impression you need a larger than life freedom so now our honorable prime minister Narendra modiji exactly fits into that role one nine years into governance all the central government schemes are reaching that maturity level people are seeing in their own eyes the transformation Tamil people generally takes little bit time for them to get warmed up uh if you look at Dr mg or himself he acted in movies for a long time he was in DMK for a long time then he started a party in 1972 five years later he came to power there is no that instant hero in Tamil not they take they take time to warm up to you once they warm up then sky is the limit for Modi G people have", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-5", "text": "then sky is the limit for Modi G people have warmed up to him they have accepted him they have seen him for two different elections now so 2024 we fundamentally believe modiji is going to fill the big Wacom in Tamil Nadu that's how I see it the brief is very clear madam to spread the party the party has to go to all parts of tamilnadu 39 Lok Sabha constituencies we have to go around everywhere the party is traditionally strong in some parts of tamilnadu we are strong in kanyakumari where we have produced MPS we have given MPS coimbatore we have given MPS trichy we have given MPS so now we have to spread out tier two cities to the Village level that is the work we are doing as of now see um for uh for our viewers and our listeners who may not be very familiar with Tamil Nadu politics uh this like when you said about this Larger than Life many of the people that you mentioned they came in", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-6", "text": "many of the people that you mentioned they came in from from the glamor World they came in from uh film industry or karnan they was not exactly from film industry but he was a poet and you know he had this uh interaction with with the crowd and all that and everything that we see in about Tamil Nadu politics is huge posters and then people getting very emotional about their leaders and all that it's politics is very different from the rest of the country isn't it I partly agree with you madam it is true we are definitely rest different from the rest of the country and uh the initial part of tamilnadu 1919 the Justice party came to power in tamilnadu um until 1947 uh with with the British control we had some form of a government post 1947 we had some of the great stalwitz in tamilnadu you look at iconic Statesmen people like Raja gopalachari people like Karma Veera kamarajaraya that was a different era in time so those people occupied", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-7", "text": "was a different era in time so those people occupied the Mind space 1965 post the Hindi agitation and tamilnadu things took a sharp U-turn till then it was more like a tamilnadu was part of the national mainstream and rajaji was there part of the national mainstream kamaraja Ayah you know part of The Syndicate and very big leader so tamilnadu was never far away from India it was always connected the schemes were coming and people were dictating up to the Delhi politics also people sitting here were dictating Delhi politics 1965 posed the Hindi agitation and the sharp U-turn that happened Tamil Nadu was seen from the outside as a state that is slightly away from the mainstream India in terms of politics where it is separate politics it doesn't matter who's coming in Delhi there are people vote very differently so that a very careful political wake-up which arosed after the Hindi agitation the DMK party smartly captured it all said and done he was also a great", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-8", "text": "it all said and done he was also a great person in the media industry in the SEMA industry he wrote screenplays very powerful dialogues for n number of movies for which Dr MGR acted as the hero and the connection for them they all came together annadurai who was the first Chief Minister of tamilnadu the dravidian chief minister 1967. he was also very popular writer and a speaker so from then onwards it is one after the other it is like that it is going um but we all have to understand Madam uh the Larger than Life leaders uh the shelf life once it is over it's a matter of time for them um the parties go through some sort of a struggle because the next leader can't match up to their standard and nobody could match up to kalinga's standard nobody could match up to Dr MJ standard but generally Madam came up because she was also came up the hard way now in the current field I don't see any Larger than Life leader in Tamil", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-9", "text": "don't see any Larger than Life leader in Tamil Nadu will occupy that mind space and people simply will blindly trust them he cannot do any wrong that is the kind of image people had for them so in this space the politics is going to be very very different not the old style of politics now while I I'll agree with you that you know the larger in life figures era might be over as far as Tamil Nadu politics is concerned and you are saying that it's it's Modi ji even I'll come to the language issue later in the podcast but when we are talking about Larger than Life figures I it was said when karuna nidhi passed away when uh that you know a he is different that era is over his progeny will never be able to have that kind of but since Talent won and he's there and he didn't have that kind of an image he didn't have that kind of a fan following but he won how come he managed to capture that Tamil", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-10", "text": "he won how come he managed to capture that Tamil Nadu generally when parties come to power ma'am you see a sweep a Lok Sabha elections also you see one-sided sweep that normally happens in Tamil Nadu when previously when you see this kind of a transition between DMK and admk in each of the election in a five-year cycle you see a good number of seats 140 150 170 up to 182 we have a 234 member assembly and this election was the most closely fought election ah DMK came to the election with the 12 party Alliance uh the net difference between the DMK Alliance and the ADM kalens was a matter of 2.1 percent total load share and the 45 seats which the ADM kaliants lost if you count the margin it is 2.4 lakh so if you if you do a very nuanced analysis of Tamil Nadu politics it is all becoming very closer parties are vying for that space and this itself is a sign that you will not see a", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-11", "text": "itself is a sign that you will not see a sweep anymore in Tamil Nadu like generally The Sweep karnality sweep MGR sweep that was the Lok Sabha and assembly performance so 2024 has given a very clear indication DMK despite 10 years out of power 10 years they were in power and 2019 they had a big sweep because they were able to generate some sort of a wave in Tamil Nadu 2021 was very close very very close as I said the numbers if you look at it very close one so I would say that clearly points to a new emerging Trend that people will see politician as a politician they will see who you are what you are speaking what are the other parties and everything and they will not blindly trust you okay 10 years out of power please give her a chance that was the whole time and Tamil politics also ma'am traditionally the position parties never play a big role in tamilnadu four years they keep quiet uh fifth year they", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-12", "text": "four years they keep quiet uh fifth year they emerge they issue some paper statements they do two three quarters before the election they sweep so that is also tamilnadu will not see that was the trend for the last 30 40 years you will not see an aggressive opposition in tamilnadu you haven't seen for a long time so this splintering of votes that you're talking about or the splintering of um loyalty uh maybe uh towards the political party if that is happening since 2019 uh so you are going to change that Trend you in the sense the bjp's decided to take advantage of that splintering and not wait till the next election isn't that what the the way I look at this for a party to go go ah it we have to have a very clear presence in the Grassroots that is very important we have about 68 000 booths you got to have a very strong presence in those booths now BJP is expanding now we are in the expanding phase we are", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-13", "text": "now we are in the expanding phase we are having a booth President we are going to all parts of Tamil Nadu till then it was always a problem for BJP when these two major leaders were there you never got people for the booths because people are addicted to some sort of a political phenomena for the first time we are seeing our boots getting filled our president's slot getting filled so it is more on the expansion side the second problem for BJP to immediately fill up the Gap per se is you are taking on an MLA contestant from the BJP who's a five-time MLA invariably in admk when you see it is all five time fourth time six time mlas who are there now ADM also DMK also the same thing where there are matured politicians and 30 40 years they are in politics for BJP we are seeing lot of first generation young Dynamic people getting into politics through BJP this is the trend we are seeing in the last two three years okay so I would", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-14", "text": "in the last two three years okay so I would say 2026 would be a marker 2024 you will see BJP emerging in tamilnadu where we will send a huge number of MPS to Delhi because that election is going to be modiji is going to come to come back as India's prime minister how much is Tamil Nadu going to contribute so we see a clear way for Moto G in 2024 so what's your immediate goal 2024 or 2026 2024 the immediate goal is to make sure the party is strong enough to capture this wave a wave gets generated to con to translate that into votes votes we got to have Booth level presence so you have a wave right now you think I see a wave Madam I see a wave clear promotive wave unlike last time in 2019 where they generated because one after the other when you see what Moto G has done if I can speak very elaborately about it modicity is seen as an Insider in fact if you look at the Tamil news", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-15", "text": "in fact if you look at the Tamil news for the last one month somebody has started a rumor that modiji is contesting from Tamil Nadu one of the seat everywhere you go people ask I was two days back I was in a tea shop in thoothukudi I was having a tea in a tea shop the Anna asked me Anna is a pure modigable contest so this has become a talking point contest from Tamil Nadu from ramanathapuram is what the rumors say so people have picked up that rumors medias have written columns about it Varanasi and ramanatha Modi is connecting it is all a rumor but people are commenting people are talking people want more digital control that itself is a sign this and many other things that modiji is seen as an Insider in Tamil or not anymore an outsider from distant part of you know that that's something which is an anomaly no because in Tamil Nadu there is this whole what is your identity is it a Tamil Identity", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-16", "text": "whole what is your identity is it a Tamil Identity or a national identity that becomes very important it's they've never tolerated Outsiders tamilanda parity I don't mean it as a criticism but I'm saying it that's the truth that uh you've not seen uh you know anybody uh coming in from outside and contesting an election in Tamil Nadu isn't it that's partly true Madam because a lot of Tamil based identity caste identity local dribidian identity a lot of things goes into people deciding in their mind whom they want to vote but since modigia has transcended everything probably I think is probably the first Outsider outside Tamil nobody has done it even Indira Gandhi as a second seat she picked up from Andhra Pradesh she picked up from Karnataka when she wanted to Sonia Gandhi picked up from Karnataka Rahul Gandhi has gone to Kerala nobody is daring to go to Tamil that is why I was very confident now when I say this ma'am if", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-17", "text": "very confident now when I say this ma'am if you look at the current new space this has become a talking point that itself is a sign that Moto G has transcended everything so 2024 would be a very different election so you think that uh but see it's a state election uh the BJP did this even in Bengal they had you know they said that Modi magic is so strong it was strong in 2019 in the sense that the vote share became very big in uh in West Bengal it was becoming the it's become the second largest party of after the TMC they did that but state election is all about State leaders how can modiji get I agree with you madam modiji can generate that wave for you it is very important the state leadership and the candidates who are there in that correct mind frame you should reflect the qualities of modiji for example if you're talking of a state election it's very important the candidate selection is perfectly bang on them you put correct candidates all the", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-18", "text": "perfectly bang on them you put correct candidates all the social engineering whatever you want to do but more importantly the candidate should reflect the qualities of The Honorable prime minister the party should set a correct narrative and go for example how is modig seen in tamilnadu Moto G's seen as a development person unifier mortgage is seen as the first person probably the Prime Minister whichever person president whichever higher constitutional position you take the first guy who took effort to reach out to Tamil people consistently in the last eight years ten years even winners Gujarat CM this is the image of modiji the party has to reflect very carefully with the very calibrated approach when we do it both think if the party takes some other narrative locally in tamilnadu then we will have a problem the mortgage is Magic translating into words this anatoman that we have to do the hard work modiji can create that wave for you as he said in 2024 we see a wave but important thing in the next", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-19", "text": "we see a wave but important thing in the next 16 18 months they were working like like a war now put people in the booth make sure they know what election is they know which house to go whom to approach they know which voter is voting for us go talk to them make sure he's ready to work but get his vote to the polling box so this is something which we have to do which modiji can't do for us as a prime minister I get that uh but you know the BJP has traditionally always worked with an ally in Tamil Nadu right uh whether it was vajpaiji he had very good relations with uh with jayalalithaji and then even Modi ji had very good relations with uh with jayalalithaji so it's always worked through another Avaya media if I may see now you are making this uh you know in all your uh speeches in all your public interactions it's the BJP you don't talk about allies you're talking about an identity creation of the BJP", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-20", "text": "you're talking about an identity creation of the BJP and identity creation of modiji in your speeches in your interaction now also it's only BJP no Ally I keep telling this in Tamil Nadu also Madam we are not against any party per se there are respectable Alliance leaders Alliance parties at the same time we are very clear BJP has to become strong it's it's a it's not an alliance of convenience like what DMK does with 12 parties cast parties and everything here it is Alliance of respect though we and admk officially we have a lot of disagreements or many issues officially um language issue we want a three language formula to be taken up they want a two language formula they oppose the new education policy we want the new education policy to come so a lot of policy issues as a party we differ but since it is based on a certain principle we align together DM admk also respects it so I keep telling this BJP has to have an identity of its", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-21", "text": "this BJP has to have an identity of its own in tamilnadu this is the time when modiji's image is all time high when we go to rurals area rural area it is no more a house it is Modi house it is no more money it is Modi PanAm people have already started talking us as a politician as a BJP carrier my job is to connect it properly to translate that into words so once we do that the alliance parties will also start respecting us it is not that they don't respect us but we believe even when we sit at an alliance we should sit with strength that is our belief you sit with respects it with strength so that you do politics there not because they wanted to give you some seeds five seeds or seven seeds or whatever it is you contest on their back this is something we want to change the public impression also public have somehow got this impression in their head that this Alliance this party is very strong this party is not very strong", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-22", "text": "party is very strong this party is not very strong we want to break that that is why in the recent uh local body polls we contested alone we want we want to put the party under stress test we want to see where this party is going can we put 13 000 candidates do we have the ability to put 13 000 candidates first time after many many years our karyakartas were doing their Booth work full time because normally when you have an alliance in in Lok Sabha in assembly the bulk of the election load is taken by the alliance parties because they have an established structure so BJP never had the opportunity to learn politics at the ground level this local body elections was a great opportunity where our people did politics they know first time they went to the ground level they had a notebook they know which house to survey whom to talk then they came back and said oh Modi this image is great great I'm entering this for a long time his image is fantastic in tamilnadu only", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-23", "text": "time his image is fantastic in tamilnadu only thing is we have to do that connection and make sure that translates into votes I'm we're always told that language is a big issue in Tamil Nadu identity language identities is very big which is true Tamil language evokes a very very strong sentiments and this has been the case for decades why is it that that doesn't work when it comes to Modi ji he speaks in Hindi he doesn't speak in Tamil why is it that you think that there is a connect that the people have with Mr Modi in spite of language being an issue or language not the same not an issue but the two things to it ma'am it could also be seen as uh if you take 2019 as a barometer 2019 Lok Sabha sabharameter 2014 when modiji contested for the first time for the Prime Minister post Tamil Nadu BJP stood alone we formed an alliance of our own but though we created the alliance the other parties contested more", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-24", "text": "we created the alliance the other parties contested more seats than us because pmk contested more other parties so there the combined vote share of the BJ parents was 19.3 percent all Alliance that was the historic number for us where we were able to win one seat on our own in kanyakumari also the DM case lowers toward share was recorded in 2014 they were at 23 percent so they were only four percent more than a Reliance One this clearly shows when 2014 the whole country was like oh modiji is coming mortgage is going to change and we want to go for more disease that way wasn't tamilnadu in 2014 else you will not get 19.3 percent and one uh Lok Sabha said contesting alone with a like-minded small three-part parties there 2019 what happened the DMK was very clear from 2017 onwards they run multiple TV channels they run papers and everything they run radio channels all as a party as members belonging to that party they carefully set a narrative from", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-25", "text": "to that party they carefully set a narrative from 2017 the anti-modie wave which they claimed go back Modi and Twitter which they organized they created an impression that uh the jalika told this that everything though we brought but they created an impression that BJP did not bring BJP was not careful for the Tamil sentiment now last time when modiji visited Tamil Nadu Madam last time last time when you visited madurai the vanakkam Modi just to give you a number how it has changed now you wanna come in Tamil Nadu means welcome Modi in a historic India's record the Prime Minister hasn't got or any political party hasn't got a Twitter train that is 14 lakh for a day so PM got Wanaka Modi for 14 lakh the go back Modi was around 70 000. now you see a very clear shift in public perception that oh once we have been fooled by a very calibrated very networked very a proper structured negative communication now people are thinking I want don't want", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-26", "text": "negative communication now people are thinking I want don't want to get fooled now that is that is the thing that is working now so 2019 I would I'm always telling Mom it is a very artificial kind of election and Tamil Nadu and 2014 also we have to understand why BJP could not win more despite getting 19 percent generally The Madam made it an election between generalita versus modiji she called it lady versus Modi she said it is me or Modi G so they gave an impression as if a million is going to become a deputy prime minister so they created an impression so people naturally thought okay there is a chance for jayalalitha to go up to Delhi and they had an impression now 2019 they kind of created an impression that when the whole of India believed Modis is going to come it gave a historic mandate but Tamil people they created an impression that Congress is going to come they create an impression it is all an impression that is", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-27", "text": "an impression it is all an impression that is the only worry the party the the structuring that we are doing is we don't want because we don't have a TV we don't have a paper we don't have very organized communicative approach we are we are also getting used to that okay how to break it how to break that narrative when the TV runs stories after stories from morning till evening you have a big sun TV you have a Sun News you have a calendar TV all big trp channels worn by the family per se or murusali again owned by them then you have multiple radio channels owned by the Marin's family so people got bombarded by everywhere you see here they were getting bombarded with this Theory now with a lot of of calibrative approach we are breaking it we got good amount of proper influences in the ground level who tell this story no this is false this is not happening so that took a lot of effort so it is more like a green shoot madam what", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-28", "text": "so it is more like a green shoot madam what happened in the local body poles was a green shoot where bjps would share in the contested area was about eight and a half percent notice a green shoot in local body pool that happened six months after DMK coming to power so we are very confident this was the problem in 2019 we know what was the problem that is why you see the current politics of DMK Madam whenever they get into the back foot immediately they make it Northwest or South immediately they make it central versus State now they have taken Governor as more like a mascot for Delhi they want to make it Governor versus DMK meaning Delhi versus DMK so DMK tries to play this game very carefully because they know they can't win on development politics they are trying to again reignite that passion and pride whatever they have been doing for a long time two topics are variety one is about the communication and two is about the governor issue I'm going", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-29", "text": "and two is about the governor issue I'm going to come to the governor issue uh later but first let me talk about the communication thing uh it's it will seem a little strange for uh people who don't know much about Tamil Nadu politics because mostly people think that bjp's communication management is probably Leaps and Bounds Beyond anybody else I mean any place critical party you talk to whether it is the Congress or whether it is the TMC they'll all say all channels are only speak about modiji only talk about BJP everybody is go the media every it's only the BJP BJP BJP but what you were saying in Tamil Nadu it is completely different but why is it then that oh you don't want to play that same game like you're saying that the other political parties have their own TV channels but you don't want to bring out your own TV channel is it the BJP I think the party is very clear Madam ideology party doesn't want a TV channel to propagate", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-30", "text": "ideology party doesn't want a TV channel to propagate what it is doing instead they expect the karyakartas to go and do the hard work meet people because it's it's a fairy they can create for five years but this can never be a permanent thing so the party has always taken a call you go and do the hard work what is expected of karyakarta let us not get into businesses which you are not supposed to get into it so Tamil Nadu do our cadders every time as senior leader from Delhi comes even to the Prime Minister also some of our party members have said sir we want to start a TV channel so whenever he comes they keep telling you give us a TV channel but they are very clear that political party is not here to win every race and and say that every day I'm doing right I am doing right every day push narrative that is never a role of a political party it's just to have that people connect so they say we keep we expect you to", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-31", "text": "connect so they say we keep we expect you to do that people correct you go to house sit there be one among the people start talking to them then things will change and TV channel is just a figment of imagination where people say you have a TV channel you win but the problem Madam in Tamil not more than a TV channel it is the carefully constructed negative news fake narratives in Tamil for example a sun TV channel would play some news from up now because now up and up are the favorite for them up and MP something happens in up they pick that up thing they put it you see the yogiji government this is happening in up that has got nothing to do with Tamil Nadu politics that news has got nothing to do with yogiji government also it is some strange issue somewhere so cow got transported somewhere some vigilante fight between two different groups not connected to government government would have taken action also now the new thing is they played out in wherever DMK party is in", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-32", "text": "they played out in wherever DMK party is in power the same thing should not happen in Tamil Nadu so be very careful so then they take a seven o'clock debate they put a first time I see very funnyly the debate is happening for issues outside tamilnadu they pick up nuises from across India where you must have seen very recently during the Gujarat polls one of the family party was carrying a live kitten Gujarat they were carrying a live kitten Tamil areas of Gujarat they are meeting Tamil people to say do you like dravidian model of development or do you like Modi model of development in the live all hundred percent they are saying it is Modi model of development in Gujarat Tamil guy is living there they didn't know what to do to cut it also then the anchor was trying to come in which became a troll material now this is something because since they are ruling party now for what what was working for them when we were in", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-33", "text": "what what was working for them when we were in opposition for 10 years for DMK everything was anti daily anti-center antimony now since they are ruling party people are angry with them they didn't want to project anything within Tamil launch so first attempt they're coming outside tamilnadu picking up a Gujarat or picking up a up trying to play it sentimentally this is a neutral the BJP model which they are saying is not working as compared to the Tamil Nadu model which is working you're right model they want to do that comparison and bring that fake narrative inside because every five years they change that status so since the BJP doesn't have a TV channel of its own in Tamil Nadu you're saying that Twitter Trends will work for you as far as the narrative building is concerned Twitter is a small part of a public discourse I just gave that number to tell you how things have changed but with Twitter Twitter nobody is going to win an election with Facebook nobody is going", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-34", "text": "going to win an election with Facebook nobody is going to win an election YouTube but but what I'm trying to say ma'am like I said we have to spread and have presence in 68 000 booths that is what we tell people is that your brief as State president yes Madam to grow organizationally to put Roots be present everywhere what happens when many a times somebody in some house in some Village is willing to vote you don't have an organizational presence the traditional parties they do a transportation for them for elections also where they get that five is seven percent extra voters even people who want to vote for us since we don't don't have an organizational presence they make they convert the door to their party because they give that last minute push to them correct so our job is to just go around tamilnadu make sure we put roots and very importantly Madam in Tamil not unlike other parts of India a booth president of DMK is a booth president for 30 plus years next time", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-35", "text": "a booth president for 30 plus years next time when you come to tamilnadu the ground level when you see a booth president of DMK he will be an old man of 74 75 years 30 years is the booth president they will not change because the state party president doesn't change is one family the district presidents are there for 20 20 to 25 years because they are the mlas the ministers and District president so what happened this guy especially the booth president he puts a route there so he is the guy who helps them for daily issues he calls the police station he goes there he comes there so our BJP we have a very different kind of politics we want to give opportunities to everybody nobody's permanent in the party we keep Shifting the leaders so our guy has got a problem especially to Tamil Nadu politics where those people stick dravidian model the booth presidents are there for 30 35 years we are trying to figure out this we have to break this", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-36", "text": "trying to figure out this we have to break this also by saying that new people once you go there we have started a program called recently we said each has to take care of 25 houses in his locality any problem in that house you are the first responder like a cop there is a rainfall issue go there solve it there is a central government loan issue go there solve it don't work like a party take ownership of that house so I'm very happy to say as of now there are about ninety thousand karyakartas engaged in it each person has taken twenty five thousand twenty five houses going around because the only way to break that logic is our guide taking ownership of 25 houses because we don't have a model where every household will know he is our booth president for DMK call that fellow picks up a bulb but for BJP and National parties we have this problem competing with the traditional dravidian Regional major because sometimes you have to play our game differently also Madam trying to catch", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-37", "text": "play our game differently also Madam trying to catch up with you when you are hunting for tile Talent uh when you're hunting for this booth level when you're hunting for district level what is it that you're seeking is it youth is it new ideas or is it somebody who's established you break away from another party what is it that you're seeking I fundamentally believe uh the people who are slightly more resistant to change are people who are seeped in a particular way of Tamil Nadu politics many people are network they say this will not work Larger than Life image will work so those people have seen ravidian politics for 30 40 years the first timer the second timer is willing to change 18 plus till about 45 guys is willing to change willing to experiment so those are the guys coming to BJP in a big way at the same time the party we are admitting outside is also in a big way the party has to expand there's no other way you", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-38", "text": "the party has to expand there's no other way you have to bring Outsiders but at the same time ideologically when a party from a six percent seven percent you have an ambition to go to 25 percent because you have to jump four times likely meaning you have to bring Outsiders in more number when the internal gelling is not happening we see a lot of places it creates artificial friction then people go out once you lose an election people don't stay for the long term so it's a big laboratory experiment that is happening we are bringing Outsiders in a big way we are pushing youth also giving them positions of importance same time doing simultaneously Manpower training simultaneously getting them to mature much faster because every day we tell them you are competing with a five-time MLA any of our aspirant way I tell them we are competing with a five-time admk MLA or a DMK MLA who is there for 30 years in the constituency he has got face value he has done", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-39", "text": "constituency he has got face value he has done work as a minister now unless you do something different you will not have a chance what is his image is Great Wave is there Moto G will bring you 50 60 percent of votes there is 30 40 percent we have to get it by our phase the Party symbol in everything so wishful people be more like a social worker political party is okay is okay that is why the 25 houses Theory we want them to go mingle with the house and start behaving like a social worker so you were talking about the the messaging so the messaging for a long time has been that the BJP is an anti-drividian party now if that continuously is hammered at times that message must be sticking you know I I'll tell you recently the Hindu newspapers editor Malini partha Sati she did a Twitter poll in which you know it was asked what is more important they said that this 50 more than 50 percent I think votes went for that the Tamil identity is", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-40", "text": "I think votes went for that the Tamil identity is stronger than the national identity now that is that's a pretty strong thing it is probably you'll see that in Bengal and you'll see that in Tamil Nadu which is happening and the BJP is seen as a party that is trying to break that so where are you or do you want to break that what is it is it a wrong perception this poll Madam if it has happened 10 years before probably would have seen 80 20. now we are seeing 60 40 or 55 45 that shows things are progressing uh maybe 1970 do I mean 95 fire something like that Madam so I see this Pro poll as a very a barometer which is showing that ground is Shifting once you cross 50 55 then we would call National Party Sierra so in a way I partly agree with you madam that this poll is indicating something ground is Shifting 2019 if you've done the poll with all the center anti-center anti-modie whatever we DMK was generating", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-41", "text": "center anti-center anti-modie whatever we DMK was generating would have been different how long does it take for an anti BJP I call myself a darker dravidian okay I call myself a dark dravidian the media people ask me sir you are dark that is visible but calling you a dravidian how do you substantiate I said look it's a land of panchatravida if you look at the old literature we call panchatravada panchatravada right up to Gujarat the current Pakistan what happened this fellows a land mass of the dravidian was converted to a culture converted to a people converted to a boundary before 1956 what do we call as Tamil or Madam it was a Madras presidency going all the way to Orissa going all the way to Maharashtra Mysore this way we have cotton we have come so it is a combination of many culture and many things before 1956 even a Madras the name itself has come from come from a Telugu ruler even if you go to Chennai", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-42", "text": "a Telugu ruler even if you go to Chennai now people say a good number of population in a very Higher Side they speak Telugu Telugu origin the first 12 people settled in Madras now this is a new Theory they have started from 1956 calling this boundary in Tamil movie we have this vadivela movie you don't trust this line I don't cross this line the quotation they say after this line if you can't come and I won't go no I won't cross I won't cross this line but you don't come inside this line okay now this is DMK style this line is the ravidian line the geographical geographical boundary which is never the case this is something they have given a narrative to it in the last 30 40 50 years they say now dravidian means which which is a shrinking area inside Tamil Nadu moment you cross Tamil Nadu border which was the Earth's 12 Madras presidency where our cheras cholas and pandias ruled where our great Kings went where people still", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-43", "text": "ruled where our great Kings went where people still have relations settle the other side of the Border this is something which I say look I am also a dravidian by this logic of landmass and I am a sixth seventh generation born this person a farmer so this is very important for tamilnadu because we also have to speak a language which people understand and moment revision we get into this race and culture and Boundary then it becomes very tough matter secondly the second part also Madam bjb very conveniently they make it a Delhi Century party or a regional party for them the first branding they do is a daily Centric party if a Delhi setting party comes to power their interests are always towards Delhi not towards Tamil not for them they've created an impression of Delhi Asaf in Delhi some four or five Roberts are sitting inside a room and they want to loot each state and take money into it they don't understand modiji has come from Gujarat an outsider in pure", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-44", "text": "has come from Gujarat an outsider in pure terms coming to Delhi because it is an administrative capital in the people's mind Delhi is made as if it is some robber barons are sitting in Delhi they will loot Tamil Nadu take our resources if you go to a village that is an impression so for us the problem I'm simultaneously we got to grow the party strengthen the organization break the narrative Set current narratives we all have to do it simultaneously to get that but there were two uh two prime ministers from dravidian States if I may say call them that I mean there was David gowda and there was a nurse they were there NTR played a very a major role in National politics at one point of time getting the janatha party together and uh you know that the whole front together opposition so it's not as if dravidian leaders have not paid but somehow Tamil Nadu is gets very uh Angry with it and you know that that sentiment has been", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-45", "text": "with it and you know that that sentiment has been taken over by Rahul Gandhi when he said in the parliament also that the BJP will never be able to from he pointed out that from Bengal to Orissa to Tamil Nadu to Kerala and even at one point of time Karnataka you will not be able to even enter this region he said uh talking about Regional leaders in these parties in these states who are going to prevent the BJP storming lower than the the cow belt area which is called you know yes in the parliament but I I welcome statement in the sense I said only if you say things will happen Ulta in Indian politics whatever you have said it has happened Ulta I said for BJP to come to power it is important ragul Gandhi should have said that statement because he said it without understanding Tamil Nadu politics a state maybe for his grandmother and a great grandfather in the initial time when the power transition was happening from Britain to India", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-46", "text": "the power transition was happening from Britain to India Pandit jawaharlal nehru asked chakravarti Raja gopala how should we shift this power is how should we give a narrative that power is getting shifted and rajaji gave an idea in Tamil Kings he used to carry the single scepter I will make a scepter in Tamil Nadu bring it to Delhi we will give it to mountbatten so he will give that scepter to you we will collect it and we will show there is a transfer of power technically the transfer of power happen in photograph wise the scepter was made we can keep giving lot of connections Madam right up to kamaraja now he has to understand Tamil Nadu was always a land that favored nationalism because you see a state that far across from the epicenter of what is happening in Indian Politics the Delhi and Mumbai and other things the quality of Freedom Fighters it gave it is like far beyond a state that is in", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-47", "text": "it is like far beyond a state that is in the hinterland of India far beyond it has always got that it has always got that now he has to understand Tamil Nadu has behaved in a very different way because it is people like that who chose to do politics inside Tamil not even I've seen Congress inside tamilnadu they speak a dravidian DM case language for example neat congress party opposes neat in Tamil Nadu congress party opposes new education policy in tamilnadu whatever DM cases Congress is it that is why he called Congress in tamilnadu as dmk's beating because ideologically they don't have a different standard it is very unfortunate Rahul gandhiji somehow beliefs it is by parroting the statement Congress has got a life support in tamilnadu but we chose to see it some other way that we have to just regain the glory get that narrative right moment we get it going it's a matter of time Tamil Nadu will get rid of the", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-48", "text": "of time Tamil Nadu will get rid of the national mainstreamer the Congress has never had an issue being the B team of the DMK isn't it I mean never in the sense I'm talking about 15 years now they don't have a problem because they're not ambitious Madam they don't have a problem innocence ambitious in the sense for any political party the reason for its existence is to come to power BJP for Tamil Nadu were very clear the party has to come to power only then ideology and whatever we have to do we can do for people but very surprisingly I see in Congress for example a senior leader like Peter Alphonse very similar to Congress he says the only person who can save India he says is MK Stalin he doesn't say Rahul Gandhi I question them sir you are such a senior leader in the Congress the number two in the party you are giving and the talking in the press that the only person who can save India is MK Stalin you're conveniently", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-49", "text": "can save India is MK Stalin you're conveniently forgotten your own Rahul Gandhi so Tamil Nadu it's we see in the ground now MK Stalin for them has become more Superior than ragul Gandhi including the State president because they keep pirating for them they want that bit of mlas to show that they are existing in tamilnadu and for them I can give you an example Man 2014 when Congress was standing in some constituency and 2019 when they aligned with DMK their votes had tripled somehow they have this false notion aligned with DMK will come back to Power that is what Congress is like I don't think it bothers Mr Rahul Gandhi so much if there's a cult following for uh Stalin isn't it I find it very funny because the way both of them behave madam foreign G to come and flag off very conveniently what he did this he called aravind kejriwal to kejriwal G to Chennai a day before arvind kejriwalji was", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-50", "text": "Chennai a day before arvind kejriwalji was in Chennai a day before the start of Bharat jodo yatra cm and arvind both inaugurated US Government School upgradation in Chennai next day he went to that program he told them I have some throat infection I can't give speech at all but I will do flag off so very very clearly MK Stalin G placed this double game Congress is weakening weakening weakening moment it crosses beyond that limit where we can't Salvage itself I will throw this out and align with somebody else that is MK startling this calculation as of now Congress understands this they go overboard to catch him now Rahul jio he goes over body understands the strategy of MK Stone he's like MK Stalin is great and Tamil Nadu DMK is great this was not Rahul gandhiji's stand in 2019 2019 he never came to Tamil Nadu for canvassing Madam I'll put it on on record 2019 canvassing not even a single stage", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-51", "text": "on record 2019 canvassing not even a single stage were together he came for canvassing for congress rally he never stood in the same platform with MK Stalin G because somehow he had this aversion that 2G scam and other things he didn't want to align with them and other things now Rahul ji completely conveniently he has become a biggest cheerleader for Mk Stalin which is very unfortunate but so now tell me 2024 is Modi ji versus talent and 2026 it's going to be annamalai versus Talent I'm 2024 Madam it is going to be modiji and Indian people first time we are not going to see verses in Indian politics it is modiji Indian people people are voting okay that sounds like uh no no I am not sucking that reason I'm telling you madam what stature does MK stalini has got what's teacher to compare to motiji what stage what's nature but if you speak to the DMK they'll say of course in Tamil Nadu", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-52", "text": "DMK they'll say of course in Tamil Nadu Stalin has a bigger stator than Modi ji Modi ji is in Delhi he's in Gujarat he is in many other states but Tamil Nadu has a style of its own which is Stalin for the DMK people it could be for an average tamilian they cannot accept this fact you can take our chief minister MK stalini compare him to Modi G and do it that can never get if if fertile DMK is doing that will be the single greatest gift they will be giving to BJP Tamil Nadu if they are doing that comparison I think we start with 10 percent plus well I think even OAC said that when uh asada was in the podcast recently he said the same thing that if it's going to be Modi versus somebody then it's Advantage BJP so 2024 should not be Modi versus anybody the opposition strategy should be that everybody fight on your own and post election then maybe see something but don't", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-53", "text": "own and post election then maybe see something but don't fight it as Modi versus it works to bjp's Advantage do you think Tamil Nadu will be the same Tamil Nadu what they will try and do madam what the way DMK is trying to do it they will try to make it uh again they will try to play the Delhi versus Tamil card that is the only card left in their Armory they don't have any other thing because they can't showcase their achievement it's 20 months already not even 20 of full promises are fulfilled so the only thing they will try to rack up some emotional issue that is the only plant they have Hindi Hindi will be an emotional Governor whatever they try to do Madam but Tamil peoples are smart enough not to make the mistake that happened in 2019 because they believed in a false narrative this time will not happen so you're seeing no pushback I mean we are seeing it on social media we are seeing it in conversations", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-54", "text": "it on social media we are seeing it in conversations with uh tamilians that we are having about the Hindi pushback they are scared that uh you know if if the BJP still has that image about being a Hindi imperialist party you don't see that pushback at all when when you interact with people Madam I don't see that pushback because for them the image of BJP is through the state leadership if you go to Tamil Nadu I would Hama 100 people if I ask how many people know India State president I don't know Hindi many of us don't know Hindi we speak in English with broken Hindi whatever we can manage we speak like a typical tamilian who don't know Hindi with broken Hindi whatever negotiation we do in the airport railway station we come out so they see it and second we are all sons of the soil we are properly grounded it is not that janakrishna motiji many tamilians know now a hardcore tamilian was BJP National president of", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-55", "text": "a hardcore tamilian was BJP National president of BJP National president one point of time now I believe madam there is no more this Hindi thing will work because normally when modiji speaks in a language for for DMK it is easy to say CC mode is speaking in Hindi mode is speaking English now they want what is DMK wants modiji to speak in Tamil then they'll say Okay Moto G is for tamilnadu but what has happened people have understood stupidity why should he speak in Tamil if he's doing for Tamil till 2019 was like dmk's argument modiji should speak in Tamil to prove he's for Tamil Nadu as stupid an argument DMK kept now the ground level Spirit has completely changed they are like see this guy born in Gujarat in Delhi for no other state he has done something for Tamil nados doing this Kashi Tamil sangam that is why they have taken the governance issue I know you're getting into Governor by now", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-56", "text": "issue I know you're getting into Governor by now they should have taken Delhi versus Tamil Nadu there because of Kashi Tamil it is Governor versus okay so I am going to come since you're going on mentioning the governor issue it's become such a thing the BJP uh let me first talk about just the governor's issue whether it is Delhi whether it is Telangana whether it is Kerala whether it is uh Bengal the governor versus an elected representative government elected representative which is the chief minister it's become governor versus Chief Minister in many of these states and uh the the accusation against the BJP is that you're politicizing the role of the governor so now let's come to Tamil Nadu the recent fracas which happened it was it was embarrassing it was awkward it was terrible which happened uh but the the lines have been drawn very strong now between the governor and the chief minister so where do you see this uh", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-57", "text": "the chief minister so where do you see this uh going for the party I see a trend Madam it is initially they used to take on Modi G all of them are understood taking on Moto G nobody is going to win in India yeah all these leaders whom you have mentioned have understood very smartly they have understood you can't take on motiji now they have to have some rules to take on that ruse has become the governor they have taken on governor no and in indirectly they want to attribute by taking on Governor I want to convey a message Delhi is trying to remote control and do something in my state we are losing our identity we are losing our this thing so let us not happen this is the image that they want to build foreign ERS different points of time we had this Governor is an outstanding professional outstanding professional person born Bihar served in Kerala again got back to IB in nagaland Governor there came back to tamilnadu you will not see a", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-58", "text": "came back to tamilnadu you will not see a qualified person has traveled across India Northeast South Delhi administered to Capital domain expertise so his vision is generally very broad Vision he has got whenever we talk to him he has got a very broad vision for the state now DMK somehow they want a very playable Governor where you give something government will sign the whole thing started with neet was the first rubbing point between the state and the governor they said you have to sign Governor said there is a problem in the sense Supreme Court has very clearly said this is a correct law I can't go against the Supreme Court then they started CM said I will not participate in any function I will not come for at home reception he did all this drama now it is with the president of India Madam the neat whatever resolution are simply passed then every four four month they waited CM was saying that the outstanding Governor very good for the state these are the these are the", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-59", "text": "good for the state these are the these are the words he used on the stage for four or five months then the second rubbing happened madam when Governor used the word called Tamil Nadu tamilagam that was a recent uh fight governor in an informal setting to a set of audience he said I prefer to use tamilakam he never said nobody should not use Tamil Nadu he said I prefer to use tamilagam I suggest you also to consider this what he said if you ask me as a person as a person anomaly as a person what do you use I prefer to use both Tamil Nadu and Tamil because I've been using it for the last many years so those who don't understand can you please explain the difference between the two Tamil Nadu Nado means generally a country Nado in generally means country India not it's called Indian ornaments country of India in literally would be inhabitants of an area now Nado is in the colloquial term okay but Tamil", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-60", "text": "is in the colloquial term okay but Tamil Nadu means it is basically the land of tamils if I can do a rough translation a place land of tamils people might carry an impression that this looks like a separate state for an outsider to understand Tamil Nadu Nadu means Tamil favorite country Tamil people we call our status Tamil Nadu we call our countries indianado so not a means country means a place of tamils so this but not technically nothing much but what happened DMK in the last 20 months Madam couple of statements they made I think which must have irritated the governor on dmkmp made a statement the conditions that existed in 1965 for demanding a separate state are existing even now I am warning central government this is one DMK MP CM was sitting in the stage then one DMK spokesperson he said Tamil Nadu is always separate it will be separate or DMK official spokesperson so we have met Governor we have given memorandum to", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-61", "text": "we have met Governor we have given memorandum to the governor saying this MP should be disqualified because he's going against the worth of the Indian constitution different times so DMK the moment uh the chief minister took power he started using a word called wondrous means how India was formed the DMK believes Hindi India was formed by the American way where all states states got together got together and formed a country so he says we are like no it is India is always meaning a central government where State never fused together and formed a country country was there 1956 we divided based on the the boundaries were divided based on the language we speak it is not that we fuse together to become India so this also has irritated Governor when on record he has said that he doesn't prefer the word called undriyam gives a feeling as if it's a sub subunit of something it has to be Madia so there are some nuanced politics behind this Tamil Nadu Tamil so Governor", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-62", "text": "behind this Tamil Nadu Tamil so Governor suggested you please consider Tamil as a word he never imposed anything he never said Tamil Nadu is wrong also he said this is the connotation Maharashtra your word called rastra Rajasthani of Rajasthan Telugu desam desam you have everything gives some kind of a connotation Tamil Nadu but since DMK is not at Clear till now the CM hasn't come on record and say Tamil Nadu is part of India we all are together there is nothing called separation nothing called this nothing TM chief minister hasn't clarified till now for whatever is MPS have spoken that's a different matter madam same I don't see any difference in it because I understand I understand the spirit behind it the governess thing was more to the people who believe Tamil Nadu is separate the second third confrontation recent is the assembly one when the governor was invited he went there even before he started speaking lot of media especially from Delhi", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-63", "text": "he started speaking lot of media especially from Delhi is focusing on the governor speech but we have to understand what happened before the governor's speech when the governor is about to talk except the DMK all their Alliance parties they rushed to the will of the house they spoke ill of governor in the will of the house they said you have to apologize for Tamil Nadu tamilakam and you you mentioned Tamil nakam which we don't agree and the speaker allowed them to come close to the governor if you look at the image man the governor is with the mic they are almost some what two feet away from the governor they were citing it was allowed for full four and a half minutes then speaker very reluctantly the marshals were called all the people are pushed out the CM was sitting in the first row with hands folded watching this in front of his eyes all this Alliance Partners Congress did gero thrown out not thrown out after four and a half", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-64", "text": "thrown out not thrown out after four and a half minutes they walked out the vck dmk's alliance partner Communist Party DMK salience partner then the governor was allowed to start the speech you have to understand that context map it was very tense environment the governor was made to feel unwelcome if you look at the images of what happened the moments before the governor spoke the speaker sitting in his chair not even condemning the member standing up and saying all of you keep quiet or get out because the governor's address the rule is very clear man nobody can interpret this is much different from the other days of the house where members interpret in governance address it's very clear people can't interpret because immediately the punishment is much more severe by throwing you out by suspending you for more time in other times Interruption can be called as fundamental right to Speech but here it is not that then the governor started a speech governor gave a speech that the governor was", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-65", "text": "governor gave a speech that the governor was waiting for the national anthem to play on the national anthem place the governor's speech is complete the governor will walk out they didn't put the national anthem I don't know purposefully then the CM suddenly stood up he passed a resolution saying whatever the government Governor has spoken today it will not go into the assembly's record first time in Tamil nadu's history then immediately the governor walked off now DMK is setting two narratives in this one they say the governor insulted the national anthem the governor never insulted the national anthem they insulted the national anthem by not allowing the national anthem to play and CM he broke the complete decorum of the house by speaking something out of context in front of Governor saying that whatever you have spoken will not go into records thirdly they say the governor has added some lines to it and give it his own speech nevermind the governor it is true he has you", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-66", "text": "nevermind the governor it is true he has you he hasn't used certain words the DMK has given but he did not add a single line of his own single line of his one for example which I completely believe what governor did this right in one place they say what governor omitted the Tamil fishermen who were arrested in Sri Lanka they got repatriated back only by the efforts of Tamil Nadu government this is the line the governor added one due to the efforts of Tamil Nadu government and central government what is the wrong element in case the governor has an added central government the governor is doing a constitutional disservice which means he is himself admitting the state government can take control of the external Affairs relationship it is central government which brought the fishermen back of course tamilnadu chief minister would have written letter to our external affairs minister the governor going with the Constitution added what is the constitutional's correct position DMK saying no no whatever", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-67", "text": "the constitutional's correct position DMK saying no no whatever we should have given you should have read it the next line they are mentioned Tamil Nadu as a state is a safe haven for peace just now we had an Isis Bomb Blast we had a police Constable molested during the DMK function by DMK party functionary governor in his conscience he said he's not going to read it he never told it in the open that is what we are given to understand because Governor maintains a studied silence he didn't read that one line the next Trend they say no you insulted ambedkarji you insulted another insulted them and all Governor never insulted them in that line the dravidian model of development was there but it was like a political line they said the Vigor The Valor and the great March of dravidian development model apparently you were given to understand Governor has said please remove this three adjectives rigor Valor and March I will read the other things because I can't speak", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-68", "text": "will read the other things because I can't speak like a political person I will he does not have a problem with reading dravidian model of development but the words before it glorifying Tamil Nadu glorifying the chief minister by adding adjectives to it government said I'm not reading this line since the state government did not agree to that government skipped that entire pair of not even one line Governor added on his own madam now any sane political Observer will say what government it is right if Governor would have said only tamilnadu government brought back Sri Lankan fishermen it is against the Indian constitution it will be against many things and very importantly we are finally seeing a governor in Tamil Nadu with a lot of Concepts every Governor had conscience I'm not putting anybody down madam but is having lot of conscience he's saying okay I am going with you the Council of ministers have got Superior power I'm not questioning it but be very reasonable tomorrow DMK in the next", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-69", "text": "but be very reasonable tomorrow DMK in the next governor's address I've thrown them a challenge you will add online saying Tamil Nadu will separate from India very soon and you want the governor to read because you're quoting the provision of the Constitution saying governor has to read what are the Council of ministers have prepared that will be an absurd logic matter yeah the governor has to apply his mind see it is not it is invalidity with the Indian constitution and read it that is why the DMK in the back foot now after the governance issue where people are angry with them they're trying to play this Tamil Nadu only now so uh you know you were talking about uh writing certain things and all that but it became more than that it became more than the speech of the governor because then suddenly you have somebody from the party who turns around and says go to Kashmir and you know then Omar Abdullah says what are you trying to say now", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-70", "text": "Abdullah says what are you trying to say now Omar Abdullah is ideologically close to Stalin as compared to with BJP he didn't like the idea that his state is being pushed as a Haven for uh you know terrorism and send it send him like saying send to Pakistan sent to Afghanistan send to Kashmir so it's become very you know this cooperative federalism we keep talking about now it is like every unit every entity trying to insult the other by saying these kind of things very ugly uh madam the DMK party Chief MK stalini is our chief minister son udayanithi Stalin during the Assembly election in 2021 he made a statement Modi G because of his torture he killed Arun jatliji and sushma swaraji the statement given by udayanithi we are given a complaint to the election commission and everything we have given a complaint if I recall the DMK top leader speaking like this I should not say this in the podcast when Indira Gandhi", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-71", "text": "say this in the podcast when Indira Gandhi Madam post emergency when she came to Tamil Nadu she was tone pilted in madurai she got got cut and blood y was asked Madame Indira Gandhi got a blood what do you think I should not say this on record said for a woman blood disc coming what is new in that it happens all the time DMK as a party it has got a Rowdy image in tamilnadu for a woman will never vote for DMK always jail modiji now the kind of utterances they do is like you cannot even hear modi's mother gets insulted like anything every time modiji goes and meets her mother immediately the DMK it even and somebody will tweet photo opportunity he went for photo all crap they will write madam so nothing new in the political discourse of it is before maybe for the first time uh many Delhi Medias picked up but many times this news gets very localized it doesn't come out of tamilnadu people always say are", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-72", "text": "come out of tamilnadu people always say are they are like that only just so do let us go to the next work but at the same speech what you have seen madam not only that fellow abused the governor he abused my mother it's the same speech the same speaker after abusing the governor he said how did annamalai's mother gave birth to annamalai something he said but I am also used to their attack last three or two months two years I am seeing their kind of attack it's a it's a 40-minute speech if you take that speech per se the DMK person minimum 20 Affairs you can put who was sitting with them 2 mlas the State Health Minister was sitting in this page listening to the full 40 minutes they walked out then we thought the only way we can put pressure on the tamilnadu policies we have to put a subtitle to that speech and send take it across India the subtitle was put by our team our bjpi tubing we took that speech put", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-73", "text": "team our bjpi tubing we took that speech put the subtitle send it to all of you in Delhi to all the editors we said look this is happening in tamilnadu the poll is in 48 of us it's not registering an fir that once it became a big issue it became a national issue then people understood the context of Kashmir and wanted that is so if you see my Twitter feeds them often I put a subtitle and post it the only reason I want the news to go beyond Tamil Nadu for people to understand what is happening the punishment till now till today is suspension from a party for some time no fir if I go one step below behind that one week back Madame kanimoli was addressing a meeting in Chennai have come to give security to her DMK meeting one fellow molested a woman police constable then we said we said look we have a video we are going to release that video you better book an affair and take this fellows out", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-74", "text": "better book an affair and take this fellows out we know their name also I called for a press conference I said chief minister you do it there are two things one she is a woman second she is a Polish woman third she is there for your party function fourth the chief guest of the party function is your own sister you do it then 24 hours Noir 48 hours we said two days we are going for a dharna after 48 hours they booked an fire after two days they picked that guy took him to the police station called the two month Constable ask her to withdraw the complaint that's the drama then BJP workers went and got out the police station then late night arrest happened at 3 30. I'm just giving an inkling inkling like this because madam when DMK knows it is in the last leg it is not fighting in its ideology I'll give it to him right or wrong that's a point of debate Madam we can sit across the table and two leaders can", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-75", "text": "we can sit across the table and two leaders can fight with ideology fought with ideology 1961 62 he said Tamil Nadu is going to be a separate country right or wrong he mentioned it moment we brought her Constitutional Amendment we said any political party talking of secession the political party would be banned immediately another in Parliament said okay we are not going to speak about secession but we agreed to be part of the Indian country but the conditions still exist we will fight for our rights right or wrong Madam with those people you can sit across the table and talk because we are ideological different your conversations can happen but current DMK dispensation without the intellectual brain or somebody it has become more like a macro party where the first thing is abuse filthy language and the poor governor was who wants to serve our state first time is hearing all this when Governor along with this Madam visited a temple in tamilnadu he was not wearing a shirt because the", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-76", "text": "he was not wearing a shirt because the tamilnadu dangawastram the culture is there in Temple immediately the DMK it being took that picture and put a troll then our ITV had to call their writing fellows and said look if it is not stopped it is going to get personal because we are not governed as Pro we are DM BJP party as citizens of the state he is our governor personal vilification personal attack the poor Governor he maintains a studied silence at least we speak the governor clearly believes his job is not to speak he does his work he travels across Tamil Nadu he speaks he doesn't come to Media doesn't talk why he does what he does and everything but somehow DMK thinks the governor not speaking means they can speak whatever they want that is the most unfortunate part so this these uh attacks on your mother on your personal attacks does that hurt you do you feel at any point of time that you didn't sign up for", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-77", "text": "any point of time that you didn't sign up for this when you got into politics my mother let me very Frank with you madam my mother they live in a village Madam uh we are a farming family my father and mother take care of the farm we have sheeps and cows there and they have to be there for daily feeding and everything now since the character assassination and personal attack on me has gone overboard I told my mother not to stay alone wow she's staying at my sister's house which is about 20 kilometer away in a city I said take care of Mom because I don't want her to get mentally upset because we are used to this in politics they keep all kinds of things because my mother when something she reads she's not even in a position my father studied till 10th my mother studied till sixth class they are proper Villages my mother anything story that comes about me she's not in a position to differentiate whether it's a true news or false news my", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-78", "text": "whether it's a true news or false news my mother have put her in my sister's place saying please take care of her don't allow her to be alone so these are all big losses for me in the sense that personal space is gone privacy is gone just a few days back when the central government gave me a zip category security uh which is unheard of in Indian politics where a state president of a party in getting at a 37 year old who's not even a panjayat member who is not even a elected person anywhere given a z category security that is a level to which Tamil Nadu politics have come I have taken a call I've come into this fight and I have ideologically it is now or never there is my mindset 10 years of mortise if we can't do it now we can never do this my mindset 10 years of modiji if you are not able to bring BJP in tamilnadu how will you bring because I personally believe there is no more leader who is", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-79", "text": "personally believe there is no more leader who is going to come into India with more dishes service but like one generation Avatar purusha it comes this is I'm not saying as a karyakarta I'm saying as an Indian citizen he motivated me to resign my job and come he in the sense I never spoke to him he as a person I said my state also needs cleansing if this guy is there when you can't do it which time you will do I came I resigned something I came under doing something but the losses are huge in the sense character assassination vilification they pull my parents pull my father and everything but I have to understand madam it is more like a bhagavad-gita here I keep telling it is always on the process just keep doing that process without expecting the result what I am doing the results might come five years later 10 years later for somebody for the party leaders at that point of time I'm okay with it but here I am very clear let me keep", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-80", "text": "it but here I am very clear let me keep doing this as a party take leaders along with me not focusing too much on the result because you focus on the result my mind is gone because this is a state though I am very positive and very optimistic with respect to what has happened but you're taking on very powerful forces media money uh they know very true to politics like what you currently said any point of time they can switch on emotion switch off emotion they can play the cards very well because they're used to it for the last 60 70 years I'm like first time politician first generation politician two years into politics every day is learning every day is fighting so it's very tough it is not very easy but good thing is when you have leaders like Modi ji Amit shaji nadaji are Delhi who clearly understand what is Tamil not because it's it's important people sitting in Delhi should understand better our top leaders should understand hundred percent backing they are giving if it is", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-81", "text": "hundred percent backing they are giving if it is not happening then you will not even survive in tamilnadu party they'll just push you away and Anime you spoke about resignation and how you got into you know like you decided to resign uh from your job so I'm going to take you back uh into your past but before that you know when you're talking about getting into politics and all I've heard about so many reasons why people get into politics you know so I would want to know why you got into politics but before that you are an engineer then you do MBA then you join uh the Police Service after upsc you join Police Service and then you go to my home district and then you know so now my question is why karkala you left because I remember at that time you know uh my relatives saying oh we have a singam in uh in Karnataka now and you leave all that and join politics I believe even the chief minister then told you that", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-82", "text": "believe even the chief minister then told you that don't do it or reconsider it so what is it it's a long story my man but uh I will tell you madam since you've asked this question um in Civil Service when you get into government service Madam in the Indian civil service it's purely by Fate you get a state I don't have any connection to Karnataka just by choice I got Karnataka with Tamil Nadu there was no vacancy for me Tamil Nadu was option number one Karnataka was option number two I went to Karnataka I don't even know one line one word of Karnataka or kannada randomly in karkala there was this nuxil activity happening at that point of time they wanted some young SP so there were six of us randomly they said you go here you go here I went to karkala because the Western got very beautiful and I think the greatest blessing for me Madam the greatest blessing for me in my life I would say is", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-83", "text": "for me in my life I would say is getting into karkala especially Udupi district for my first tenure in polishing what a great people the quality of people God fearing people who believe in punjabutas people who live a life very quietly cartilage a small little sleepy town you the place you are born very highly cultured so those things made me as a person I was able to take my time first one year eight months and car class asp though I wanted to get transferred maybe the first time in karnataka's history they wanted to retain ASP in the same district as ESP then I got posted as the same district as SPS promotion again karka was in my jurisdiction that went on for two and a half years meaning for more than four and a half years I was in karakland as a public servant madam then slowly I was more on the coastal side I was in chikmagalur uh we can say some more like Coastal Karnataka the people are very different very very God-fearing", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-84", "text": "the people are very different very very God-fearing somehow I am also very spiritual guy for them spirituality is part of their daily life you see this Buddha Cola you see this you could now global stage now correct yes but people who lived there will know how it is intrinsic part of their lives people believe in that spirit then it happened to Bangalore but somehow Bangalore I felt I was it was very suffocating for me it was a person um I felt it was more becoming protocol day by day where uh you beat VIPs uh Karla was you meet poor people somebody come to your office they say Anna this land issue is a problem come and sort it out or not this issue is a problem you felt you were one among them Udupi was like the Chipmunk lovers like that but Bangalore was more I felt anybody can do this anybody can do this protocol why me and I am not seeing the value of my work getting translated in the ground I'm more in the air", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-85", "text": "getting translated in the ground I'm more in the air and that was small is slowly churning in my head but I never had the courage to resign I never I know I'm a middle class boy that monthly salary has to come for me to make that monthly budget if I quitted what will happen luckily I got a trip to kailash manso over that point of time so it was a long trip government of India I was a licensed officer for one of the R3 batches so away from cell phone for 40 50 days up in the Himalayas so that gave me a very cluster Crystal Clear Clarity that I have to do something in the Grassroots by which some difference can be made I can see visibly that somebody's life is getting changed by my work there so annamalai goes to kailash mansarovar I think everybody can get the meta for those who understand it anyway go on so came back Madam I prepared my family prepared my father prepared my mother prepared my wife because we", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-86", "text": "my father prepared my mother prepared my wife because we are a very young kid three and a half four years old so I prepared everybody took about three four months I said look I don't know what I'm going to do but we'll figure out the plan you got support middle class families next month he was like wife was like you do it okay if it gives you happiness you do it I don't want you to be an unhappy policeman she's a non-political non-political she's a software person huh father and mother is like don't do it why are you risking uh father is like what will you do after this I said I don't know let me very Frank with you I don't know what I want this is my this is what I told my father is it great take one to three years take five years ten years you work maybe you quit at 45 50 you come out then normally when you quit Madam uh I I happen to meet uh somebody from the BJP party also uh uh It", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-87", "text": "somebody from the BJP party also uh uh It Again by chance Again by luck who introduced me to this party in a very deeper level as a policeman you see the party from the outside it is not that you go very deeper into it an invariably 10 politicians you see five six are always bad Madam when they come into the office you see that their other side of life also as a cop so for me all politicians I somehow felt are the Shady characters doing deals and everything I never had this good impression of a typical cop in my book also mentioned this madam then I thought the introduction to the party the orientation was very different to what I've seen this I wanted to start an NGO politics what to do which gives more impact which will maximize what I want to do took about six months of eight months of started an NGO called we the leaders Foundation more into Skilling organic farming ran it for three four months by the time after Equity became one year the", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-88", "text": "by the time after Equity became one year the influence of this people was very strong on me that I should come consider Politics as an option because they can accelerate what I'm doing in an NGO much faster the two BJP the two BJP Tamil Nadu because every because those people need it though the video readers Foundation was in tamilnadu focusing on three four districts which I felt we have to we have to make a change so I would say many a time it is like it's a purpose it's a calling Madam a lot of people ask me I say let me be very honest I will not tell you lies as if I planned as if I approached some party as if I sat with them as if I resigned as if I came I said it never worked like that in life it will never worked well when there is a purpose the purpose will always meets its master when you have a purpose to do good to make some change to people there will be a master of the universe", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-89", "text": "to people there will be a master of the universe somewhere both will connect that is how we give advice to people so keep your purpose intact if you want to get into politics I ask them why answer why if it is power I say don't come you might not get power through your life so for you it is to transform people's lives or get modiji elected um or both together for me again I see Madam if if anomaly is some MLA somewhere more important than that is modiji because with him it's 100 times more faster the change will happen so right now the goal is to get modiji elected again because you want to see this transformational again effect going much faster not because you can be that one MLA somewhere or one NG or somewhere you can do that one place somewhere inside but coming into politics my mind has become much more broader now it is like you think you can do 100 times more than the other guy motig can do thousand times more than", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-90", "text": "other guy motig can do thousand times more than who we are so the larger impression is to get more elected now again and again so you were talking about you know going to the grassroot level getting talent and getting at the booth level and all so is this padhyatra which you're planning from April one of those uh one of the one of that the goals for one of that is that is the main goal Madam because it we are planning to start a year before the election uh those times we believe fresh Talent will come in and those will comfortably give one year to the party because when modiji came in 2014 we found a lot of professionals came that point of time they all came new into politics we want to generate the same spirit and tamilnadu we are saying give one year you don't like politics it's okay give one year to motiji you're from U.S you want to take a break come for six months to tamilnadu you are you are walking in a", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-91", "text": "to tamilnadu you are you are walking in a corporate role in Chennai but not afraid to come into politics afraid to come into politics come six months so I believe this would be a catalyst to kind of recharge politics at the local level which is completely away from the traditional Tamil Nadu political mold you need money you need to pay 2000 rupees for each vote you've got you got to have star power we believe we can we can break it by this but then um everybody is going to say you're copying Rahul Gandhi and fragul Gandhi thing what has happened now it has become Madam you put a shoe and a T-shirt and a jeans pant you walk people call that is I think padiator is not that Madam and yatra is not that I fundamentally believe it is more going meeting people with a larger purpose Rahul gandhiji after walking this many kilometers on one of the interview I saw I have traveled so much", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-92", "text": "the interview I saw I have traveled so much across India I haven't seen hit last one I've interviewed I haven't seen Delhi he said I haven't seen it then why did you start the padyatra in Tamil Nadu when Raul gandhiji started we said there is no hit why do you want to waste your time instead you want to call this a walking competition you do it we don't have a problem after 3200 kilometer he says no hit but padyatra should have a larger purpose Madam it is not you are angry with modiji you want to do it you're angry with this you want to do it congress party is weak you want to do it no it is have a larger purpose here you want to redefine Tamil Nadu politics itself he's uh he says it is uh in in the midst of hate it is Pyar Ki Dukan he's opening up places where love can be distributed through his padayatra what are you trying to distribute in your padayatra", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-93", "text": "what are you trying to distribute in your padayatra it is to properly connect modiji uh number one Madam to all the rural audience second to strengthen the Grassroots and third to find enough number of volunteers professionals who will give one year to 2024 because 2024 is going to be a very important election like like what you said initially 2024 happens 2026 will happen so I see both are in a long journey both are Milestones matter animalizing you um you know you were talking about uh your privacy going in a way because now you have this security uh which the government has given you um what for those who don't know why it happened could you just tell us that what statements of yours it was it was about it was about Islamic Terror endurance PFI and those kind of comments I really don't know Madam but being a ex-cop people Target you for a n number of reasons I don't know why it is why security agencies have picked up some alert some threat what", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-94", "text": "security agencies have picked up some alert some threat what is the intelligence input nobody shares with sure and uh in India we are emerging as a Nation member it's a nation we are emerging and uh we are we are many of us when we put ideology first and talk very vociferously you you you tend to get into wrong people's mind right it always happens that on a state like Tamil Nadu we have lost a sitting General Secretary of the party was hacked to death outside his home by Islamic Fundamentalist till now we have lost more than 100 karyakartas BJP as a party at different points of time but were all murdered and killed and anything especially because they put ideology first for what they are doing so from the outside perspective for people who say tamilnadu is a very safe State uh Tamil Nadu you don't see this lot of problems and others Tamil Nadu is a state where Terror exist modules are very strong Isis has got a very good presence you have", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-95", "text": "strong Isis has got a very good presence you have seen on coimbatore now even before that a wannabe truck bomber was picked up in Salem he has already purchased a truck he wanted to run it procession he was just picked up after he purchased the truck so no more Tamil Nadu is that state where everything is peaceful everything is great tamilnad has become very ideological State also especially in the last many many years Tamil they see um people want us we have parties in Tamil Nadu Advocate a separate status of now they contest in elections also we have parties like DMK over like here and there then we have parties like BJP which are like strong nationalists so tamilnad has got all kinds of political characters unlike Karnataka existing in one state in Italian shifting from here to there so it's a very complex state in fact when the Sri Lankan Easter bombing happened also people say the the the the help and the planning went from tamilnadu that is", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-96", "text": "and the planning went from tamilnadu that is why Naya picked up a lot of people from coimbatore at that point of time I really don't know Madam but having said that as a ex cop and somebody tells me this is an issue and this is a serious issue my job is to listen to them and maintain that precaution so what is your view on PFI should it be banned shouldn't it be banned uh is there scope for uh strong uh ideological uh parties to exist and PFA has been very consistent in the way it has been behaving after over many years in fact I was of the opinion since we are very close to Kerala I keep seeing what is happening in Kerala day in and day out it is like a free-for-all they just come every month they hack on bjpk just hack them in a broad daylight throw him away and walk out it is like you just cannot see this in a civilized society so the BAM on PF is 100 right because they", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-97", "text": "so the BAM on PF is 100 right because they have gone beyond the Contours of what they were supposed to do as a social organization they're spreading hatred money laundering killing and tamilnadu also PFA had a huge Presence at different points of time and the two in a country like India when when mha with with a lot of agencies input when they do a very meticulous study of what has happened it is a very well ordered ban also but I believe Banning PFA is also warning for other elements who can take India for granted India was previously a soft State before 2014 India was not a very hard State like this hard state in the sense we protect our borders we protect the sovereignty of our country 2014 soft State Pakistan came in isi hit Mumbai 2009 they walked out we never reacted anything much it was always seen as a soft state in the world size PFA somehow got used to that that India is always a soft State now India has a very hard state in", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-98", "text": "soft State now India has a very hard state in terms of our thinking and behavior so this new thing has changed there are still many organizations in India like mini pfis here and there they also have to understand they have to mend their ways and come into the Constitutional ways of functioning another Regional issue which I want to talk I mean of course Islamic fundamentalism is not a regional issue but we were talking specifically in terms of Tamil Nadu uh now that you know another issue is the sethu samudram project can you tell me what is your objection to this uh so that you know those who will want me to specifically ask you about uh some of these projects take a little bit time to explain sure um okay uh the for people many of many of many many people from across India who haven't visited rameshwaram who hasn't seen ramanathapuram uh rameshwaram is is is not exactly the tip of Tamil Nadu it is closer to Sri Lanka where we have the Lord", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-99", "text": "closer to Sri Lanka where we have the Lord ramanatha Swami Temple and in ramayana we all know the story where uh Lord Rama was along with Sita Mata when they were flying they wanted a lingam for worship so since they couldn't find any lingam they sent hanumanji to go and find a lingam and bring hanumanji came all the way to Kashi vishwanath Temple to find a lingam by the time the lingam came Sita Mata made a lingam out of sand and made Lord Rama to pray and we see in Kashi the Lincoln that has come we see the sand lingam both present inside the Lord ramanatha Swami Temple now this is the history from there to go to Sri Lanka what in English they call the Adams bridge in Tamil we call the Rama Palam meaning Rama's bridge in English we call Rama setu in Hindi we say Rama Seto it's a 58 kilometer land mass Bridge which connects Hindi and Sri Lanka from the", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-100", "text": "which connects Hindi and Sri Lanka from the satellite image we all have seen it now when the UPA was in power DMK was very clear they wanted to bring project by which ships if they have to come to thoothukudi they have to come to India across Sri Lanka come here both Sri Lanka and come to titukuri they wanted to bring a structure where the ships will come in India between India and Sri Lanka it will enter go over Rama setu and go to thoothukudi another port they say this is important because we saved lot of money the cargo traffic will start coming towards India they will not move around Sri Lanka this is the whole idea madam they have also made an alignment called alignment Fourier alignment Fourier they've given a drawing that will come alignment 4A exactly breaks Rama setu by creating that say the samathram project in 2018 March the central government gave an affidavit and Supreme Court our BJP government where we said we have an objection to the previous", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-101", "text": "where we said we have an objection to the previous Congress government's foreign but the central government is considering other alignment as of now where Rama setu shouldn't be even touched this is because their objection is that there is no Rama setu isn't it uh dmk's objection yeah DMK and UPA DMK Congress their objection continuously is this is a figment of imagination there's nothing like that but BJP Central government's view is Rama setu we will not touch it but the same time we are not against the sethu samatram project per se we will find some other alignment this thing 2021 January the honorable prime minister Narendra Modi has put a committee to study the Rama setu scientifically and give a report in three years the committee is functioning as of now Parliament recently when jitendra Singh ji was giving an answer to a question he mentioned very direct to a question that was asked whether the existence of Rama setu connected to ramayana is confirmed I very clearly mentioned that structures", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-102", "text": "ramayana is confirmed I very clearly mentioned that structures do exist since it is 18 000 years before the government as of now the committee and everything is studying as of now Bridges not confirmed but structures do exist and of course the committee is functioning we will get a report what Tamil Nadu government did in the assembly is they picked up one line of jitendra Singh ji they said since the central government themselves say Rama Saida did not exist so we are bringing this project and the Assembly of the members who were there they said look we don't have a problem with that project which is General government's Viewpoint also but don't do alignment for yay so BJP standards no alignment 4A by which Rama setu bridge will get damaged do some other thing now what is it what is the thing behind it now I'll also say that this project Fourier it's a stupid project I'm using the word called stupid because generally The Madam used it in 2014. she used the same words she said", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-103", "text": "in 2014. she used the same words she said when you say big ships can move in this this is a very peculiar area Madam if you look at the the sea between Sri Lanka and tamilnadu it's a shallow area unlike other parts of India you don't it's a very shallow you see coral reef we have the Rama Seto in montpomeria you have the sea water this height you see the land below for kilometers inside every time a ship has to come after the ship going the sand will come inside and close that root a continuous dredging operation has to be done in the inside that for the ships to pass Madam said look huge ships cannot come because the dredging operation has to be continuous the project will fail she says even 20 000 ton ships which Tamil Nadu government owns called the Pumbaa shipping Corporation even they can't come it will benefit only two people because TR biology you want a shipping company she mentioned the name your ships can come she mentioned kanimally our", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-104", "text": "name your ships can come she mentioned kanimally our real name she said you want this Westgate Logistics you are a shareholder you have ships so your ships will come not no Tamil fishermen is going to benefit so she dared and challenged both the TR biology and the Karim only Madam see that you put it on record you don't have any ownership in the shipping company invariably Madam is the thoothukudi MP now where constituency also comes along the coastline and TR biology is a Chennai MP till now they're ready to answer whether they have a shipping company in their name the number one model two the recent study says when the tsunami came lot of damage happened the coastline between India and Sri Lanka did not get damaged because the shallow Waters observed all the energy itself so technically it protects us from tsunami because the Indonesia plate is always very fragile so it will protect third Madam is committee report he said economically this project is unviable the Planning Commission which", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-105", "text": "this project is unviable the Planning Commission which was dead in 2000 before 2014 said for a 25 000 crore project the 25 000 project that point of time he said it can only be functional if it has got a 12 percent internal rate of return this project doesn't even get four percent there is no cost saving there is no fuel saving no but because the dredging money offsets the fuel the fuel saving that you will do by skipping steel and can't coming inside so overall whatever project we have discussed till now fails in multiple counts project we have to completely work out of the box sit with central government do as some other alignment which might favor us the current project will never be a star okay now I cannot conclude uh on Tamil Nadu politics without discussing the caste issue because that is also always you know uppermost in people's minds when they start talking about how to give seeds how to give how to give tickets how what is the alignment in Tamil Nadu the BJP now", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-106", "text": "the alignment in Tamil Nadu the BJP now seems to be fractured in many ways you are accused of being anti-brahamin anti-uppercast how do you handle that now it is very funny Madam for the first time DMK is talking very positively about brahmins of our state for the very first time they say that look look at anomaly this bmk's official mlas and MPS look at anomaly this guy is making sure no brahmins want to exist within BJP party so anomaly should be kicked out this is DMK saying that anomaly is antibiomic the only thing they say because somebody resigned from the party somebody gets suspended from the party if you take if you take what I've taken some decent recipients a state party president they don't talk about any other cost of course you have suspended n number of people of different communities I don't even know what community they are but they pick up one or two Brahmin Community people getting suspended from the party for some discipline reason", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-107", "text": "getting suspended from the party for some discipline reason they pick up and say look this fellow's anti-promise is number one and which is very interesting to see because how DMK itself is clueless with respect to accusing me they should have some basis to accuse matter accusing me of Brahmin bias by DMK is the most idiotic argument in tamilnadu's history after Independence in 1947. second Madam we of course we can't believe in caste we don't believe in constant but it's not just the DMK animal right I'm sorry for interrupting even the lady that you suspended she also said no that you have a caste bias they have to save and they are inside the party Madam anybody who whom you suspend you take a discipline action when they go out they give you all kinds of reasons to accuse you of your number of things somebody within the party coming out and say I'm within the party I'm an office order this fellow is doing this that's a different argument having said", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-108", "text": "is doing this that's a different argument having said it madam one thing we have to understand I believe in the word called Brahman the quality of a brahmanas educated virtuous righteous a person who understands the scriptures who lives a very dignified and good life that is a wonderly caste I believe the cast of Brahman which is close to Lord Shiva otherwise I am a cast neutral person for a simple fact born in a village taken me out taken me across India put me in a government service coming here it will be stupid of me to believe in caste because many places we have broken cast many places we have seen great number of Tamil brahmins specially in tamilnadu almost like juice the Tamil brahmins of Tamil Nadu they are literally Jews in the sense 1971 75 77 a Tamil Brahman says I'm a Tamil Brahman and tanjawur take it from me the DMK will do something to you madam they come and deface your house they'll", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-109", "text": "you madam they come and deface your house they'll put some Chapel they will bring Lord Rama outside your Agra Haram put a Chapel Garland to Lord Rama in Salem they have done it they've done it injour they will do most idiotic of things to chase them away that is why some of the greatest Talent of Tamil Nadu is outside yes some of the greatest Talent is in U.S it's in Delhi it is outside I think biggest disservice to them just like Jews because DMK as a party it is founder on the anti-brahima philosophy 1919 when the backward classes movement got formed by which Justice party came which is a forerunner to Davidian kalakam which is a foreign classes moment in 1917. the history always every time is anti-promic now first time they want to do this in Tamil Nadu politics DMK speaking is like Hapa whatever accusation they have done after one or three years a small boy from a small village in Tamil Nadu in", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-110", "text": "from a small village in Tamil Nadu in my way in my in my second year in politics I have made DMK to speak okay all right you talked about virtuous virtuosity in politics and in character building and all but whenever you know people sitting in outside Tamil Nadu think of Tamil Nadu politics there's a lot of sleeves also involved sex tapes all this thing comes out and even in the BJP now you know these things are coming out tapes are coming out how are you going to keep discipline in your party I keep telling this young people Madam where politics is disciplined first and more important than that is a sense of maturity we can't behave like some students inside a classroom where I abuse you you abuse me you record somebody's audio and then you release that audio in the public space and say that you abused and then you claim that you have from this cast you are from this woman it only shows BJP is growing I'll come to", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-111", "text": "it only shows BJP is growing I'll come to that ma'am how to discipline them it only shows people are fighting for some position some someone is unhappy with some position somebody wants to be a district president uh somebody doesn't want Outsiders to come and take that thing that is a churning up that is happening without this turning we can't go at the same time people also have to do madam in the process they can't damage a party party is bigger than any individual any point of time you have a fight between two different party you release it in tablet unfortunately what has become madam everything has become anomaly when some fellows fight I don't even know who they are I don't even know what they spoke I don't even know which day went out till some media fellow calls me and say Anna some tape for both fellows have abused each other what is your comment I'm like what comment then they say it is all anomaly this is all anomaly this is anomaly sitting", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-112", "text": "this is all anomaly this is anomaly sitting full-time monitoring Everybody by running some surveillance operation to see who's talking and who is not talking this is DM cases DM cases running a surveillance operation in tamilnadu watch also has come now tell me the story of The Watch this watch has got a big story Madam now DM is it the same watch very much yes same only one watch I'm wearing this watch okay the last many many months now DMK accuses this watch has got some surveillance and I record all videos photos with Boomer I'm traveling it's Rafal watch what do you expect I can't record anything but I'm it's a plane watch so everything comes to this watch now this watch is something which I wanted to wear because I believe something that represents me as a nationalist I always keep doing that I always keep doing that in the ways what I am comfortable this watch is something which I wanted to wear it's a rafale the beauty of this watch is it's like the watches", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-113", "text": "beauty of this watch is it's like the watches of the Rafael cockpit so what the pilot sees it is designed like that you see a Rafael plane here it is only 500 watches they have made when Rafael plane came out by the salty Aviation so this watch is one I'm wearing nothing great in it just it shows the time and date and everything since I can't be a pilot I'm wearing it out of passion everybody will have some passion for me this passion is this what is the fascination with Rafal not with Rafael a fighter jet fighters probably an Indian identity fighter jet the the day India manufactures our own fighter jet Tejas is just taking off the the day we have a cutting Cutting Edge maybe a fourth fifth generation fighter jet probably I will start wearing that but it's this it's the thing that you're a you know a small town boy now buying an expensive watch so where are you small town you're buying expensive watch is it those", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-114", "text": "small town you're buying expensive watch is it those watches in crore of course this watch is is a couple of lack watch which I can always buy yeah uh I'm sorry the DMK is image of of me is but anomaly has got two sheep and sitting inside some Village and rearing a sheep that's how I started but as an IPS carrier I want money I I run a farming business now these are some things I can afford a car I can afford a shoe I can afford the clothes or something I can afford it which is which is my means and their logic extension that you can't buy a watch also means that you have to buy a 400 I don't have a problem with anybody wearing anything this show is a 600 rupee Chapel I'm comfortable I'm wearing this Chapel now uh probably I'm wearing some shirt and pant it doesn't necessarily have to wear a one lakh rupee shoe because it's not needed Forum 600 rupee shoes comfortable but watch", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-115", "text": "not needed Forum 600 rupee shoes comfortable but watch this is something that represents who am I as a person so I'm wearing it but all DMK has to understand I am the probably the first person in India a party in power is asking a common man show the bill which of course I'm showing April the day I start my father yatra I am like Hare Baba till now what it is asked a powerful person government money you are an MLA show Bill how did you get a house disproportionate income I haven't taken a single penny after coming to politics in Tamil Nadu now you want me to show this bill now this is very funny that is what Tamil Nadu politics have come down to me but but having said it it has become a good occasion for me because corruption till now whenever when I talk about political corruption nobody half the people don't listen they're like Tamil Nadu this is par for the course what is new you are talking people have", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-116", "text": "the course what is new you are talking people have spoken about corruption previously also we have accepted corruption you talk about other things that is Tamil Nadu politics till now after this Raphael watch when I mention I am going to release your corruption on April second week third week when I start this padayatra you will answer to me now corruption has become an issue suddenly after many years they're like what anomaly will release releasing against which minister our ministers will come and press meet and say I don't have anything but if anomaly is releasing I will answer okay so you like ruffling feathers I've seen your press conferences also you don't hesitate in doing this one-on-one combat with some journalists also isn't it only with agenda journalists I have a problem with them because they they belong to a particular party they can't put party's ideology in a press speed they say there is okay with asking a question okay with we having an agreement or disagreement having a discussion but continuous party", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-117", "text": "agreement or disagreement having a discussion but continuous party line plus people will defend only uses right to me they don't understand it is my comment it is a view of the party the Press people initially in Tamil a lot of the fights that you have seen they will defend only is right I'm like you have a you have a stand it's fine media can always have a stand but this press conference is me giving you my standard the party stand you should listen you can't debate and argue with me that your stand is powerful than my stand so this is where many disagreements come because they come from a particular television channel which is owned by a political party you know one more thing I want to talk to you about I'm I can't let you go before that is about women's issue you know you spoke about how uh karnanindi had said something about Indira Gandhi and you know many times and about uh you know this lady who was dismissed from your party who said that there", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-118", "text": "who was dismissed from your party who said that there is no scope for women in the party you had recently said about a certain Law and Order situation you said give me seven days and I can solve this crime if given a chance it regarded a woman uh you know a crime against a woman you said this what is in your view uh you know and the other thing which I want to say is that you know in many states it's been proven that women vote uh for uh for the BJP because they are the real La bhartis they are the people who have got benefit by many schemes pro-women schemes of the BJP you know and many of others so now tell me the where do women feature in the bjp's Tamil Nadu unit when you make policies schemes programs your politics personal politics also and bjp's politics where are women in that in the scheme of things for you if we ask any Tamil woman Madam after the demise of Madame jalalitha it is Narendra", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-119", "text": "demise of Madame jalalitha it is Narendra modiji who is Comfortably feeling that Wacom where women see up to a leader I think women don't accept everybody as a leader Madam for them it is all they have to have certain values which they see in their husband in their father in their household humans are very sensitive they see those qualities in the Prime Minister that Integrity truthness taking care of them as a person will protect them they see all these qualities then motiji occupies that space generally to occupied that space for a long long time in tamilnadu politics for her the biggest voters were woman voters she will sweep upon voting so nobody could touch her for a long time mainly only when women deserted her like when videos were shown about Madame sari or Chapel or something to the elections that they said otherwise they flock towards her so now tamil.bjp has got a responsibility more than ever that the impression that women are coming towards are BJP and Modi", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-120", "text": "that women are coming towards are BJP and Modi G we have to translate that into words that is our duty having said it madam enough number of women are coming into the party enough number of women are coming into the party uh for the first time in tamilnadu bjp's history we have two women District presidents normally you don't see women District presidents in the field because they have to fight the distinct prisons other people they fight many times it's a fist fight you want DMK fist fight you want polish fist fight uh I've given chance to two women District president in bjp's history and Tamil Nadu your president many people are opposed to me like look you look you're putting women in danger uh they're in a crowd they do all sorts of things so traditionally Tamil Nadu right now admk all district presidents are male DMK all Disney presidents are male always male it's a history in Tamil Nadu where I've made two women District presidents in BJP", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-121", "text": "where I've made two women District presidents in BJP who had a district unit I called both of them I said look this is strange because in Tamil Nadu you go to any office there are women working there there are scientists women scientists women teachers uh every job but how come in politics women are there as vice president women are there a secretary no party gives a chance in Tamil Nadu to women as a district president Congress all and male Weck all are male communist all are male we are the only party two month president a lot of people within BJP opposed me they said you can't do that but here it is all very aggressive politics pushing pulling happens you are putting women in danger I call both the ladies I said look I want to trust you seeing your performance I have to convince the other senior leaders and other people next 10 women we are pushing 15 women we are pushing because when women are voting for you when women are not in the field", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-122", "text": "voting for you when women are not in the field how will they get connected to the party now I am happy to say this two women among the 66 are the top 10 outstanding performers one lady has got a child who studying in college the other person has got a school going boy but both give 16 hours to the party they are always in the field travel plan places you should do a story on of them sometime specifically this part Madam it's very inspiring we do everything because I believe we are preparing preparing the Mind women BJP State Vice President we have four women but it is not about four women a state vice president it is important 50 percent of women District presidents are there that is important they are the people who connect the office bearers don't connect office bearers are here to do politics in Chennai and other big cities these people are daily there they lead a team they form both committees they go we have done it and that is my vision for the state having said it", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-123", "text": "that is my vision for the state having said it madam I don't want to push it too much also because it's a male dominated politics these two have created that first break now the male District presidents when we do a displacement meeting these are the only two men who sit inside that Hall 64 males sit with them in other places it is 100 male now the when they speak Politics the males also initially their mindset is like women outcome what do they know now they are like oh they're speaking now they are like oh they speak they are among they are equal to me so we are breaking the general traditional male mindset this is a very hard work I'm not very easy though I can talk very easily in a podcast with you and go but I I really complement both the two women because to change the mindset is very important they are fighting in the district with 99 males they are the only female there so this is something at the same time inside the party also why I suspend", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-124", "text": "the same time inside the party also why I suspend somebody why we take action against somebody as a party Madam because we believe people should allow talent to flow BJP cannot be a closed party somebody cannot say in the party that I will block somebody's growth I'm here for this many years this cannot happen this is very wrong approach and we are we are telling you very Dynamic approach you you want to bring about you got to hello Madam I have to take some hard decisions at some point of time maybe we take some I've taken very little discipline reaction that is my last resort I do a lot of communication one-to-one talking coaching delegating we do all those things as your IPS training help in that to take these hard decisions when it when it comes to hard Nation I'm not very afraid to take it Madam because I want to send a message to the whole party but we are doing because I am doing this Sanam like an urgent Mission Madam you don't catch it now", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-125", "text": "an urgent Mission Madam you don't catch it now you'll never catch it again I can also comfortably sit in the chair wait for 10 years and allow Somebody to Die Another another wake-up to create and do it I somehow believe we have already missed the first vehicle the 2017 wake-up that got created after Madam's demise three four years that happened I have a feeling that somehow we have missed it now missed it that point of time the vehicle is still there it doesn't close the gap before somebody emerges as a leader politics you got to go catch it and come Madam so people say Anonymous is very aggressive anomaly is fast anomaly is doing this the reason madam I believe you don't do it now you will not get that chance politics is just the time Modis is ninth year into his prime ministership tenth year Tamil Nadu people are seeing they have seen modiji for nine years we have to translate that into votes now I keep drilling into our party man", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-126", "text": "into votes now I keep drilling into our party man also come on guys this is the time let us function like a corporate company though we are a political party let us have measurable variables let us reach households because with nine years with modigious PM such a great person sitting in Delhi if we can't change Tamil Minds it's a shame for the party this is my Approach a lot of people say no normally you're too fast you wait for some more time things will happen I'm like 2024 mortgage is 100 going to come it will be a fool of a water to say I am going to vote for some MPE who will not be bjpe knowing fully will Delhi you are going to come it will be a waste of vote I'm saying it is only 16 months Tamil people for the very first time they believe Modi is going to come 2014 they do not have a belief Tamil people Modi are lady 2019 these people did the negative campaigning 2024 very first time", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-127", "text": "people did the negative campaigning 2024 very first time Gujarat they are seeing they are seeing other states next they will see Rajasthan madhya Pradesh every state coming including Karnataka I'm showing I'm believing it is going to set a very positive narration till 2026 2024 we come inside Madam then we are there we've got to show some MPS inside 2026 build on that and reach it 2024 you miss the bus so for me the sense of urgency the reason I'm in a hurry 2019 you missed the bus you're saying we missed the bus because there was a wake up then so 2024 and 2026 are your two Targets now Target we have to finish the target there's no more extending the target Madam okay this is the time with Moto G nine years now if you can do it I think your name should be changed to annamalai Now isn't it that is why people say I'm I'm people man in a hurry man in a hurry but I have to do it", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "7ea7591d8789-128", "text": "man in a hurry but I have to do it Madam there's no other option sometime I rub the wrong way some people are uncomfortable with me I try to push some things very fast I I am not like a traditional politician while a lot of things to mature I want to put more firewood and and cook faster but right or wrong that is my style Madam okay all the best to you we look forward to seeing your career pass thank you thank you so much thank you thank you for watching or listening in to this podcast to like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste [Music]", "source": "4EQJQeJWeak"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-0", "text": "I see India an Ever increasingly powerful country which will surely have a role in any Global issue and has to deal with it partly because it's the presence of the G20 at Brook Bond green Bond James Bond uh so uh he can he can fill a stadium at Prime Minister Modi coming out of the European Union um going through covet and also the consequences of the rise of China mean that the UK is looking at India both countries want to free and open indo-pacific we certainly support uh un's uh India's uh becoming a member of the U.N security Council as part actually of a wider Security Council reform so the institution reflects the reality of today China presents A new challenge for the world it is autocratic and it is expansionist Chinese behavior in relation to Hong Kong as well as in relation to xinchang notice that there is a Gandhi statue in London that tells you something about the UK as somebody who led the movement against uh British rule has now commemorated and", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-1", "text": "movement against uh British rule has now commemorated and respected and has a statue actually sitting looking at our Parliament prime minister is when he swears the oath to become a member of parliament the book he swears it on is the bhagavad-gita meaning foreign welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is High Commissioner of Britain to India Mr Alexander Ellis he has been the British ambassador to Portugal and Brazil he served under Prime Ministers Boris Johnson and Liz truss and now Rishi sonak joining me in the podcast is my colleague and National bureau chief at Ani Naveen Kapoor thank you very much for being here uh hi commissioner Ellis we are very very happy that you could come you've just returned from Gujarat and we want to know more about what happened at Eden Gardens so let's begin with that thanks very much thank you very much please call me Alex Smith my name um well anyone who comes to India has to have some", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-2", "text": "well anyone who comes to India has to have some kind of love of cricket and I love cricket and I've played it all my life and when I lived here 35 years ago I used to play it here a little bit as well um and I was invited to play in Eden Gardens just after Christmas um for a sort of uh UK in West Bengal team against Bengal and the UK team and it was fantastic experience um it's in gardens for any Cricket fan now it's a scene of two of England's greatest humiliations number one Ben Stokes being hit for four consecutive sixes so I could stand at the creation and wonder how I could reach the same stand um and secondly Mike gatting losing the um 1987 World Cup final for the real trivia Cricket fans but it was all great experience I love Cricket it it is the center of cricket so that was great just come back from Gujarat uh Gujarat is an important state for us because uh about a third of", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-3", "text": "important state for us because uh about a third of the British uh Indian Community in the UK is Gujarati and uh there was a big celebration for the 100 Years of uh the birth of Swami uh pramuk who was the man who really inspired the building of the big temple in Easton uh there were British politicians there was that right and there were lots of Brits uh there as well it's a huge event and I was honored to read out a message from his majesty the king um uh to uh to the attendees and there were also messages from both uh prime minister Rishi sunak and the leader of the oppositions kierstamba so it's a big thing for the UK and gujarat's a big State for the UK as well it's why we have a big office there did you eat any of the local Cuisine uh the Tali the Gujarati thali I'm always eating the local Cuisine okay one of the joys of this country is diversity of its food so I'm certainly", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-4", "text": "is diversity of its food so I'm certainly I I'd certainly ate a few docs I don't know whether that be consider to be particularly uh Gujarati but you know I remember uh going to the other end of India uh we're going to Kerala house in September and having an onam meal okay which had I think 25 different things on the plate um uh well there was no plate of course it was a banana banana leaf yes and eco-friendly eco-friendly and very tasty as well uh and one of the joys of India is its diversity and one of the joys of its diversity is the diversity of its food if you come from the UK your idea about Indian food there's very little relation to what Indian food actually is when I lived here before I realized that and I'm going back to the UK and like a good student at University going uh to eat a lot of different kinds of what we call Curry in the UK and I now realize uh certainly chicken tikka", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-5", "text": "I now realize uh certainly chicken tikka masala no problem you know delicious I see the guy who plays invented chicken tikka masala died the other day Okay in Glasgow my mother's Hometown and I realized and I realized that that food had almost nothing to do with the food which you eat here one of the many reasons for coming to India and I'm delighted that you visas are back allowing lots more Brits to come to India is so you can eat this huge variety of food aha I'm going to come to the Visa show soon in the podcast but before that uh you know you know I'd like to speak about this the tenure that you've had I mean there have been three changes in prime ministers while you were here there was Boris Johnson Liz truss and now Rishi so now but I would seem that there's an uninterrupted continuity with regards to bilateral relations am I right in saying that yeah I completely agree with Smith I think that coming", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-6", "text": "yeah I completely agree with Smith I think that coming out of the European Union um going through covet and also the consequences of the rise of China mean that the UK is looking at India uh in a quite a new way and a much bigger way than before uh and so the integrated review which was a strategy document which we produced about two years ago which I was the lead civil servant for really set the course for the UK in relation to India by saying India was going to be one of our top priorities in the world and that's partly because India is going to be one of the three defining countries of the 21st century so I think it's true foreign countries that India is a top priority but the UK has the extraordinary assets of the living Bridge of its uh a diaspora in the UK and so we saw a huge opportunity in India across a wide range of different areas I'm sure we'll come on some of them climate would be well and sustainability another would be defense and", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-7", "text": "would be well and sustainability another would be defense and security you know there'll be trade and investment and a living bridge and health and research and education is another one all great areas of opportunity and the UK and India it's quite it's a complicated relationship because the history because the Raj no doubt about it but here is the opportunity to look ahead and to invest heavily in that relationship and I agree with you about the continuity and that continuity I think is illustrated by the fact that all three of those Prime Ministers are very interested in India no India visit India want to do more with India what I also see on the side of the Indian government is an interest in working with the UK I'm sure we'll come on to some of the reasons why and how that shows itself but the stars are aligned um uh and they're not always aligned so when they are you need to get on and do stuff and that's what I'm here to do oh hi guys Mr Prime Minister of UK uh yeah", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-8", "text": "hi guys Mr Prime Minister of UK uh yeah the Indian roots do you think that helps to add some intensity to the relationship let's look at symptom and cause the fact that the prime minister of the United Kingdom uh light dlms outside number length 11th Downing Street when he was a chance to the exchequer uh that he hosts a Diwali reception within I think days of becoming a prime minister of the United Kingdom tells you something about the United Kingdom and how much it's changed over the last generation I talked to some of my most senior contacts and friends here who said to me I could never believe that somebody of South Asian origin could become premise for the United Kingdom well they have and that tells you about the UK and it's not just true in politics I think it's sort of cross-public life one of the former England cricket captains was born in Chennai uh the former president of Royal Society was also a Tamil as well so the UK has changed now", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-9", "text": "a Tamil as well so the UK has changed now of course uh prime minister Rishi sunak knows India well uh but it is family history partly through his wife as well uh and so he's very interested in India we've already had several engagements uh with Prime Minister Modi they met they spoke on the phone I think twice India's interested in India's interest in UK's interest is still the UK's interest so you know we'll have to find a way to how we achieve those things but it helps enormously when you have somebody who really knows and understands the country and that's an interesting reflection I would say overall of politics in the UK I I say this because I think our politicians have a sort of different Take On The World maybe than a generation ago I'll give you two other examples so we had kemi badenock here recently as the trade secretary the trade Minister Pierce goyal's opposite number and she'd come to kind of give some impetus to the free trade negotiations", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-10", "text": "of give some impetus to the free trade negotiations and she was brought up in Nigeria uh I think she lived until she was 16. uh she's British uh as rich as soon as I am but she has just a different Take On The World James cleverley our foreign secretary who was here think yeah within days of being reappointed uh his first trip abroad I've been reappointed as foreign secretary was to India to Mumbai and then to Delhi and he uh spent quite a lot of his childhood holidays in Sierra Leone so that's just a different Take On The World I think that has to have some influence in the way you see the world they would have to uh keep track of or they would be aware of the Legacy issues of the relationship but at the same time have a new take I guess on the New Frontiers of this relationship that's right I mean they're all you know British as British as I am but what they do do is see the world in a different way and they also", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-11", "text": "see the world in a different way and they also see they understand the opportunity which exists in India some of the complexity of India as well and it's extraordinary diversity and they don't need explaining about what India is and what opportunities it provides and that's a great thing if you're doing my job the FDA talks that concluded the sixth round of talks prime minister Boris Johnson had said that by Diwali it should get done but prime minister sunak has said you know has said set aside that date where is it getting stuck and uh when do we see that fructification happening the visit of premise of a trade Mr Kimmy bednock has given some impetus to the talks again we've just conclude the sixth round we plan to do a seventh round in a couple of weeks time in the UK so we are getting towards the end of this negotiation I would say uh We've uh it's a long Ascent up to any mountain and you go through the valley for", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-12", "text": "any mountain and you go through the valley for a long time then you get up to your base camp and then you have to start to do the short sharp Center that's what I think we're about to try and do both countries want to do a deal I think and that's a big change India did a batch of trade deals about a decade ago I think and then was quite critical of and felt that it hadn't really worked out for it and so it's now restarted with a new policy and you've seen that with Australia and with UAE the UK interestingly in parallel has been doing new trade deals of after leaving the European Union it's not coincidence we've done them with Australia uh gaining close partners with India uh both countries I think are talking to Canada as well uh and I think we'll start to do some negotiations I think with the golf countries as well so actually countries are sort of negotiating with similar countries the issues will come down I think to how much is each side", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-13", "text": "come down I think to how much is each side prepared to lower their tariffs on some Goods um uh cars for example I was talking to the bridge most motor industry this morning for only it'll be textiles I should think in some clothing uh how much openness can there be on services on the Indian side it's pretty close markets uh can we open it a little bit more because we think that gives opportunities both to India and to the UK India will say well we need to have some uh more opportunities for temporary mobility of workers between Indra and the UK there's quite a lot of that already but I'm sure that they will ask for more and there'll be some other issues around investment protection for example but you can see what those issues are and you then it's right in question down to not just the technical details but the political will so a lot of work has been done we've actually closed over half the chapters and I think we can close some more pretty student visas is that India", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-14", "text": "can close some more pretty student visas is that India wanting more student Visas so that's a completely separate thing so a trade deal will deal with an issue this won't be the temporary mobility of workers in other words you know can you temporarily send a worker from let's say TCS because they're big investors in the UK from India to the UK how under what conditions can you they do that for how long and so forth can you create uh migratory routes for example temporary migration for uh chefs as a classic one not very often that are specialized yeah yoga teachers might be another which Hindu would be interested in that's an entirely separate thing from student visas okay that doesn't come under the skilled skilled stuff yeah it's about skilled workers now India already gets uh I think over 40 of all of the skilled worker visas which the UK issues go to Indian Nationals so uh you have a lot of Internationals providing very skilled work in the UK by the way I'd like to", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-15", "text": "work in the UK by the way I'd like to get more um skill Brits coming to India I think there's a lot of opportunity for more people from UK to understand more about the reality of India today but student visas uh is a separate issue outside of Free Trade Agreement and does the patent issue also come in as intellectual property is part of uh the discussion how do you make sure that you have proper uh protection of intellectual property uh that is particularly sensitive in areas like Pharmaceuticals as you'll know India being a great pharmaceutical producer and we're in quite heavy intense discussions with the Indian government exactly about that but you have to step back and think why do we want to do this deal um there are clear economic benefits our own work shows that I think we published at the beginning of last year as we launched the negotiations um some figures about how much rgdp would benefit how much growth we would benefit and I think that's also true for India as well so there", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-16", "text": "think that's also true for India as well so there are economic benefits there are benefits about supporting the flow of talents and ideas between the two countries I think there are also strategic benefits both countries want to free and open indo-pacific both want to increase trust between the two countries India sees a big opportunity and I think in being an alternative supplier to China in some areas and high-end manufacturing for example and for that you need access to the UK Market and then we have quite a lot of trust already between our countries an example for example the cover Shield vaccine that's at UK India joint production um uh designed in a great University uh in Oxford University and then manufactured put around the world by the serum Institute as well as AstraZeneca but I think we could do more of that I'd like to see where we could do that next and I think of free trade agreement underpins that trust increases that trust and also just brings the two countries closer together in his first major foreign policy", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-17", "text": "countries closer together in his first major foreign policy speech uh prime minister sonak had an interesting perspective on indo-pacific and China you just mentioned in the Pacific uh he said and I'm going to quote uh by 2050 the indo-pacific will deliver over half of global growth compared with just a quarter from Europe and North America combined that's why we're joining the trans-pacific trade deal and the cptpp delivering a new FDA with India and pursuing one with Indonesia unquote and he was a very explicit in the words he chose about China and he said I quote we recognize China poses a systemic challenge to our values and interests a challenge that grows more acute as it moves towards even greater authoritarianism unquote if you could break down on India Pacific and then China because even the Indian leadership hasn't used such strong words about China sure China presents A new challenge for the world it is very powerful uh second biggest economy but it may become the first biggest economy that may not this is", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-18", "text": "the first biggest economy that may not this is autocratic it is a technological superpower no doubt about that um and it is expansionist and if you're sitting in Delhi you know that better than if you're sitting in the UK or in the UK uh China has big impact but it also has a bigger impact in India where you share such a long border many of the problem with the global problems can't be solved without China climate change would be one pandemic preparedness would be another so how do you work with a increasingly wealthy powerful technologically highly sophisticated autocracy there's no model for how you do this this isn't the Cold War it's something different and so countries I think tried to deal with China both in some cases with cooperation say on climate change for example and India does that as well with China sometimes confronting where we have differences of values and that's why the UK's policy on China has evolved is because of Chinese behavior in relation to Hong Kong as well", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-19", "text": "of Chinese behavior in relation to Hong Kong as well as in relation to xinjiang and occasionally um challenging as well so this is a shared Endeavor and I think the UK and India share that endeavor now it's a great time to be Indian in my view because you have this fantastic opportunity ahead of you over the next Generation I feel that urgency as well in India about you know this is a great moment for India but you're doing it in a context which is not benign where you have greater challenges to open free trade in the indo-pacific and you know the indo-pacific will be the center of the world over the next 50 years or so and how do you do that well do you think you do that with more friends if we've learned one thing from uh the Russian invasion of Ukraine which we happily talk about you need friends a Ukraine has friends Russia doesn't really um and those friends can help you and India is a mighty country it's going to get bigger but I think it", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-20", "text": "it's going to get bigger but I think it sees the opportunity of having better relationships with friends with different countries in its neighborhood that's why you have to quad but also with the UK and some other countries as well I want to ask you what you spoke about human rights um and uh China uh how do you see the situation in Tibet uh and uh you know about China holding human rights in its in in that region because Suddenly It's it's no longer an issue I mean suddenly or over the years it's just gone into the background as far as the world opinion is concerned well human rights abuses uh exist in many parts of the world and they need to be challenged and there are different ways which you can try and do that um and I think for a while we thought in the west uh that as China grew it would become more liberal very crudely um I think that was a misjudgment uh it was uh uh uh misjudging which many countries made and it's turned", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-21", "text": "uh misjudging which many countries made and it's turned out not to be the case at least under Xi Jinping and I should emphasize the law says an element of xinji Ping's changer as well which is a different kind of China where you instead of having a leadership which lasts for 10 years and then you change over you would now have somebody who looks like they're going to be in power for a lot longer and that's a new world as well um uh for us in relation to China so and we do call out those abuses we did in Hong Kong obviously that has a particular sensitivity for the UK because it used to be a British sovereign territory and we have uh allowed a lot of people from Hong Kong to come into the UK part in response to that so I think we do call out those abuses um the effect of doing so you can argue um although we were able to do things in the case of Hong Kong to facilitate people coming to the UK um which", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-22", "text": "to facilitate people coming to the UK um which I think will be of enormous benefit to the UK as well but this is going to continue to be a problem um and something which I think we we the UK we India we're going to have to find out ways of identifying pointing to it and trying to change it but it's a hard thing to do so as you said that China will be a big Challenge and uh you said you use the word expansionist we have seen the big fights between India and China oflet in Galvan and now recently in arunachal how do you look at the approach taken by India in this matter and also do you see when you say that you should have friends are you also suggesting some kind of a military alliance with the Western Powers with India to counter China I was careful not to use the word Ally because I think you know it's about friends and about making sure that you have friends who can support and it's interesting to see for example how", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-23", "text": "can support and it's interesting to see for example how that friendship evolves we've just had I think for the first time for the first time in a very long time a British naval ship in the Andaman Islands uh now it's a very sensible territory for India and not surprisingly considering it's geographical location but I think there's great interest of more cooperation between the Indian Navy and the UK Navy we saw that when we bought the aircraft carrier here in October 2021 with a sort of multinational um uh uh supporting ships as well and more work on Maritime domain awareness for example more understanding of what's going on in The Wider Indian Ocean is something which the UK India are working together closely on I think the land situation is a bit different in India very experience in dealing with the land situation I think it tends to tackle that itself but we are all in our different ways having to work out what you do with the Xi Jinping China at some points you are", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-24", "text": "the Xi Jinping China at some points you are working together we do work together in some areas I don't want to dismiss that but it's a different world and I think the world I started in in diplomacy in 1990 so it's when I start to joined the Foreign Service just after the collapse of the Berlin Wall was an incredibly optimistic time and I think we are in more of an era of real politic and of great power competition than we were then and yet some things never change because since the 90s we've been wanting India's been wanting to be a permanent member of the U.N security Council China will continue to oppose is there any recalibration is there any changes there more muscle that the rest of the world can add for India to be part of that we certainly support uh un's uh India's uh becoming a member of the U.N security council's part actually of a wider Security Council reform so the institution reflects the reality of today changing those institutions is hard we", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-25", "text": "reality of today changing those institutions is hard we need to make them work some of them come from straight after the second world war like the UN and the U.N security Council some come later like the World Trade Organization created really the kind of apogee the Zenith of globalization the mid 90s um and where we want to work more with India actually to make that a more effective Institution um where we can let's try to make things better I'll give you one example which is in the international financial institutions another product of the under second world war now we need to keep adapting those to the reality of today and we want to work on more with India on that so for example they are lending more in some of the countries where we're going to need a greater support for example small island states which are particularly vulnerable where we find other ways that they can increase their impact around the world but it's hard work changing multilateral institutions is hard work what we're seeing is the creation of sometimes new institutions", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-26", "text": "we're seeing is the creation of sometimes new institutions which starts more but may grow I'll give you one example the um uh the uh on the disaster resilient infrastructure cdri created by India with big UK support and we were the joint co-chairs to launch the institution and that's trying to deal with a problem of today and tomorrow which is how do you create more disaster resilient infrastructure around the world but I think particularly in the Pacific region of small island States and you started the international solar Alliance as well in the um Paris climate change conference so you can create some new stuff you can try and see a broad and remodel some old stuff and you do a bit of kind of mini lateralism as well a quad would be an example of that uh messy lateralism you sometimes but working but I think India will increasingly be part of all of those things and as including as a partner say with UK and India but with some other countries where we're trying to solve particular problems the war", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-27", "text": "where we're trying to solve particular problems the war in Ukraine it's brought about unexpected changes as far as countries um you know they've had to recalibrate their foreign policy perspectives uh they've got to see the impact it has had on each of their Nations before they can decide on a group reaction so how is it impacted Britain how do you see that President Putin's invasion of Ukraine uh totally unprovoked is having a global impact I think it's impacting every country to be honest because of its consequences for fuel prices for commodities for fertilizer prices and so forth but it's also having a huge human impact it's having human impact most of all in Ukraine where people are dying um defending their country its impact on the UK is first of all is many things but one of them is an emotional one it is very shocking to have a kind of really you know a direct invasion of one country of another in Europe is something which Europe has this terrible history of the 20th century", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-28", "text": "Europe has this terrible history of the 20th century of the 1st of the 20th century in particular and it resurrects it brings from the dead those coasts um so it's mostly very shocking secondly it has human impact um we have quite a lot of ukrainians coming to the UK uh we have policy about how you absorb them into the UK uh one of the reasons by the way we were slow in some of our Visa turnarounds last year was because we were focusing and right so on ukrainians who are fleeing the UK fleeing the UK playing Ukraine coming to the UK it has an economic impact it's increased inflation very considerably um uh it increases energy costs it increases uh other kinds of costs as well um it means we are spending quite a lot of money of the development money which we'd like to be spending in some of the poorest parts of the world we're having to spend around Ukraine to support for example the humanitarian crisis which is", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-29", "text": "to support for example the humanitarian crisis which is caused by Russia's invasion of Ukraine and of course we are supplying uh uh uh weapons to Ukraine to defend its territory so it's having a very considerable impact I'm afraid it also brings home the point I was making earlier that we are at the world of benign worlds in the 1990s is long gone we are in the world of geopolitical competition but I should say this main impact is on the people of Ukraine because they are dying because somebody their neighbor are their autocratic neighbor is trying to take over their country what is the British view about how India is uh is handling the situation is there uh any acceptance rejection annoyance with the way uh the Indian Prime Minister said that war is not a solution and he continues to have talks with uh President Putin sure and I very much agree with what the Indian government said in the U.N security Council very early on which is you need to respect the rule of law the", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-30", "text": "is you need to respect the rule of law the U.N Charter and territorial integrity and sovereignty now each country then has to work out the best way of how you go about doing that the UK with other countries is doing that through supporting Ukraine to try and resist the Russian invasion uh India's standpoint is a different one and there are reasons for that which I understand and I explained um at the same time we are trying to work with India for example to reduce its dependency on Russian material for its armed forces and we are working to make sure that uh you can create the greatest possible opportunity for a piece but it's going to be a fair piece one which uh you know allows Ukraine uh not uh to have its territory just taken away arbitrarily any kind of deeper partnership which is the one we're trying to create between UK and India you're going to have differences of you the great thing is you talk about those differences and when prime minister Boris Johnson was here he did", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-31", "text": "when prime minister Boris Johnson was here he did with Prime Minister Modi they had a very interesting Frank conversation about it when our foreign secretary James cleverley was here at the end of October he had a similar conversation so that you do it privately you do it with understanding you understand which other comes from and you see why what you can do together and how you can do it and that's exactly what we're doing because a good deep partnership is not one where you just agree all the time it's one sometimes you are going to disagree but you do that in a way which understands each other's positions and sees what you can do together but don't you think that India's history with Russia our historic relationship uh don't you think that uh like the West is opposing India buying oil from them and India continuing buying Supply arm supplies from the Russia so how do you look at the from the perspective of our you know uh history you're right and it does have a quite different relationship with", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-32", "text": "right and it does have a quite different relationship with Russia than for example the United Kingdom or many of the countries of Europe or the United States and we know that and we understand why that is what the West is trying to do what the UK is trying to do along with other countries is to end Russia's disastrous and totally destructive invasion of Ukraine how do you do that you try to put some pressure on the Russian economy not so Russia collapses that's in no one's interests um uh but that Russia steps back from this mad um Invasion and desperately harmful invasion that's why uh so what do you what what the UK is doing is trying to create an oil cap for example so that Russia can continue to get all revenues but can't make it you know uh um outrageous profits out of the um out of the situation of the high oil price um and we think that that's the way it's a calibrated way of trying to put pressure on the Russian government but at the", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-33", "text": "to put pressure on the Russian government but at the same time not destroy the Russian state which we don't want to do we have no interest in doing so India will buy oil India needs to keep inflation down so does the UK we understand that but we want to end this war in a way which uh reduces the harm which Russia is doing not to Ukraine especially but also to the rest of the world there's a narrative in the western press and especially the think tanks they are saying that Indian money is fueling the what is sponsoring this war in a way Russia they're supporting buying oil from Russia is strengthening their economy do you agree with this I don't represent the US I represent the United Kingdom the Western president they represent the Press of any country which is uh our present United Kingdom is joyfully free to say what it wants and it does every day including about uh my own government well I think we need to focus on is how do we get President Putin to stop what", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-34", "text": "is how do we get President Putin to stop what is a totally unnecessary unprovoked and disastrously damaging uh War um uh and what is the best way of doing that and that's something we talk to all the time to the Indian government as we should but we'll do that you know in private and at all different levels and that is the big question for 2023 but what is clear to me is that we cannot allow an autocratic giant to invade its Democratic neighbor and take its land that is an important Beauty in the other Peacemaker in this I see India an Ever increasingly powerful country which will surely have a role in any Global issue and has to do with it partly because it's the presence of the G20 I think by the way it's great that India is having the presence of the G20 so let's see but first of all we've got to get uh President Putin to stop at the destruction the the war and the destruction of Ukraine uh when we talk about you know earlier", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-35", "text": "Ukraine uh when we talk about you know earlier in the podcast we were talking about Legacy issues uh with regard to the Cold War and post-gold War World you know uh one of the problems uh problem areas in India UK relationship has been uh many uh British parliamentarians they Advocate the Pakistani cause in the parliament also there are some uh some do-gooders members of parliament who say that they uh unilaterally they offer to mediate between Pakistan and India and say these this is the Legacy see that since we caused the partition it is our duty to mediate between India and Pakistan on Kashmir that obviously is a thorn in the flesh as far as India is concerned nobody likes it out here that Kashmir is discussed in British Parliament we get into one of the things which makes my job interesting and challenging sometimes which is the history of the UK and India and that's a complicated history as a former colonial power the British Parliament is a place where people are free to say what", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-36", "text": "is a place where people are free to say what they want to say they're elected representatives of people in the United Kingdom uh and they do um oh I always look I would always say look at the British government and what the British government does and doesn't do and the British government has been very careful on this subject um and you were talking about successive Prime Ministers and we've had successive foreign secretaries and uh since in my time here they've been extremely careful about this issue it's not something which uh you know we spent a lot of time discussing with the Indian government and at the same time British parliamentarians will say you know what they want to say just as Indian parliamentarians do as well so is it just politics I think that it is part of the noisy democracy which is the United Kingdom constituency of Puris and the others in those areas I think that they're in the UK's population is getting increasingly diverse um there's no doubt about that if you look", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-37", "text": "um there's no doubt about that if you look at the data we just had our um 10-year census from England Wales a very useful document that shows the increasing diversity of the UK population um in terms of people born outside the UK in terms of ethnicity as well and in terms of religious diversity as well and so it's not surprising that our Parliament reflects that diversity it happens in India too we have a kind of a diverse population maybe not people of ethnic or origin from outside our geographical borders but within the country we have that diversity but when it when it comes to foreign policy there's there's rarely any dissonance sometimes yes with regard to neighbors but in the British Parliament what we get to see is talking about uh decisions which are taken in India for example what happened in Kashmir the abrogation of the article so this is discussed and as a as somebody who was part of your Colonial past we don't like it that you know", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-38", "text": "Colonial past we don't like it that you know it's that it's still being discussed as if we are still a vassal state well at 75 years since Independence I think we we've all moved on in lots of ways I completely understand why people don't like it uh but I also like the freedom of speech um and the Democracy which exists inside the United Kingdom what I'll always say to anybody is look at what the British government does and what the British government says uh and they're very careful on this issue and what we really focus on is all the things we should construct together but I understand the the you know about the freedoms whether it is the media or whether it is politicians uh being a democratic Nation we do have those demonstrations which happen out here where flags are burned by protesters and all but it's taking increasingly violent turns whether it is um pro-pakistan elements in London or pro-kalistan elements you know vandalizing the high commission or uh or the", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-39", "text": "know vandalizing the high commission or uh or the Gandhi statue these things are happening and it it's it's in and they get they fund uh the separatist movements in India that's not that's not just Freedom it's misusing the freedom isn't it so where um there is misuse in the sense of criminal Acts or we will act as we always will to ensure that less proper protection for example of diplomatic premises um by the way I noticed that there is a Gandhi statue in London that tells you something about the UK uh that uh you know somebody who led the movement uh against uh British rule has now commemorated and respected um and has a statue actually sitting looking at our Parliament I think that tells you something about the UK and its own debate about its past so when there are criminal acts we'll always deal with them um and we do and we talked it in government a lot about that I don't know whether it's increasing I might challenge you on", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-40", "text": "know whether it's increasing I might challenge you on that I'm not sure if there's evidence that there is um and on the very large hole the United Kingdom is a peaceful country in which there's plenty of noisy debate but people respect the law when they don't we need to act as we have in the case for example of some of the disturbances which took place in Leicester where there have been plenty of arrests as a result of that and actually one or two convictions as well already our legal system can move quite fast in their circumstances but overwhelmingly as the United Kingdom comes becomes more diverse it's of enormous benefit to my country so there was also a task force formed by the government uh do you think it has helped you know bringing down these incidents we cooperate a lot with the uh with the Indian government uh where we see uh threat and risk to both countries um and in fact we exactly your rights are mentioned as part of the roadmap agreed between prime", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-41", "text": "mentioned as part of the roadmap agreed between prime minister Boris Johnson and Prime Minister Modi in Spring of 2021 we created task force which were now sort of getting operational uh to look at where there are risks to both countries uh because the executive governments have every interest Incorporated on this on National Security matters yeah including on extremism um and dealing with extremism okay uh you know increasingly one sees that uh their their merry fugitives uh from India who are in Britain whether it is Malia or niram Modi uh will you be sending them back so I won't get into the particular cases although I know that there are some very sensitive cases um in in India um the UK let's separate different things so the UK government can order an extradition and has done so in some of the most sensitive cases indeed has done so several years ago any decisions in that area are digestible before a British Court um and so they are um and so it's really now a question", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-42", "text": "they are um and so it's really now a question of what the legal system does and how quickly the legal system works um and they are going through that process um as I've heard uh our former prime minister Boris Johnson say before the wheels of Justice turned slowly but they do turn what the UK government has no interest in is becoming a place in general for financial future tips that is not in our interest we don't want that and that's why we take the decisions we do but ultimately those decisions are challenged upon the court and the courts are going through their process so this economic offenders and then there are former Prime Ministers of Pakistan who find refuge in London what is it about London that attracts people like Benazir Bhutto zardari nawash Sharif altaf Hussein I think the best thing to do is be ask the 127 000 people who got a student visa from India last year why do you want to go to the UK because it's a great place to be is that the", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-43", "text": "because it's a great place to be is that the only reason or is there it's a great place to be UK is a great place to be you've been there yourself uh it's an excellent place to be what might be true for a former leader might be true for an aspiring student as well why is it that they find safety there is it because it's safety in numbers then they don't find they don't decide to go to Switzerland or to to the US but it's there well I'm not there to answer for the personal decisions of uh former politicians from any parts of the world but the UK is a safe country um it has an excellent rule of law uh which applies uh to everybody um and those are great things one of the things about the living Bridge as Prime Minister Modi calls it is it has a huge flow of great people and then maybe wanted people who might you know you might not want in the in the United Kingdom are making a general Point not a specific point", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-44", "text": "Kingdom are making a general Point not a specific point to anybody there um and then the rule of law when the rule of law in the supply needs to apply and it does apply and again things go through our courts but it's a great country and it attracts people from all over the world and I'm delighted that it does I want to go and move to G20 sure and uh what is Britain's expectation of G20 and India hosting G20 it's a big challenge I'm really pleased that India has the presidency of the G20 you had I think hush Wrangler the other day because India is a powerful country an increasingly powerful country and as we were discussing earlier it's a country which has the ability to talk to many different countries and I think that's extremely useful at the moment because you're in a world in which there are huge Global problems we talked about climate changes sustainability we could talk about public health as well and at the same time it's a very divided world the", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-45", "text": "the same time it's a very divided world the world of the era of geopolitical competition so you're having to deal with big problems where you have a very fractured uh a group of countries but India I think has the convening power to bring those countries together to try and work its way through now the Indian presidency is very ambitious and we dab count as a G20 semper is very ambitious and that flows from Prime Minister Modi um to try and tackle some of the world's big problems and for example on development and how you do development in the future how does technology play a role in development it's also an opportunity to tell the story of India and the story of new Indian and Modern India so I'm glad that India's got uh the um the presidency and we will support it absolutely to try and find answers to those those questions but it's a tough ask there's a high ambition there's it's a tough ask at the same time what is prime minister uh Rishi", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-46", "text": "the same time what is prime minister uh Rishi sonak's visit to India whenever that happens what is that going to be like well I hope very much we might have a prime minister body visit to the UK as well I think because he was he was an absolute hit when he came uh last time and I I remember uh actually I remember when it was with I then Prime Minister David Cameron talks about uh Brook Bond green Bond James Bond uh so uh he can he can fill a stadium at Prime Minister Modi amongst many other things I think that there's enormous interest in prime minister Rishi sunak in India yeah you'll tell me yeah because absolutely that's why uh you know both because of his family heritage by East Africa um and uh because uh through his wife therefore his knowledge of India remember this is a man who when he swears the oath to become a member of parliament the book he swears it on is the bhagavad-gita yes um uh tells you something about", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-47", "text": "bhagavad-gita yes um uh tells you something about uh the UK parliament of today to go back to what you were asking me earlier so uh I hope he'll come he's a busy man um he's got some issues to deal with at home uh uh but I I would presume that around the G20 Summit he would come here um but I what I'd like is you know we had a terrific launch of a new partnership two years ago a little new relationship we're trying to create between two countries Boris Johnson and Prime Minister Modi we're then delivering that and we've got the Free Trade Agreement coming towards you know it's climax I hope in the in the coming months we have a lot more cooperation defense and security we have the Living Bridges issues I talked about where a huge increase in number of visas issued to Indian Nationals and I'd like to bring that back all back together and so I'm all like any High commission I'm looking for that opportunity when I can bring the", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-48", "text": "looking for that opportunity when I can bring the leaders together to talk about those things but you know it's quite a thing when the Prime Minister UK is lighting the deal lamps outside uh in Downing Street so you know how important is personal chemistry between prime ministers like you've you've had a long uh career in diplomacy from the 90s you've seen so many prime ministers interacting with each other you've been on the you know on the sidelines and watched all these Summits how important is that personal chemistry I think it is important because every prime minister has a very crowded agenda there are a thousand one things they have to do at the same time and one of the things about governing is choice you know where do you focus on and the fact you have a prime minister in the UK who knows India well and understands the opportunity which India provides is uh good news as far as I'm concerned uh I also think that I prime minister money in primary and the Prime Minister", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-49", "text": "prime minister money in primary and the Prime Minister Richardson so talk each other in a particular way because of that understanding so we'll see as I say uh for example the Free Trade Agreement uh in the negotiation is a tough negotiator so I think UK negotiators are tough negotiators as well so there are still material interests but knowledge and understanding and focus I think can be affected by uh that um that bilateral the relationship the human relationship as a career Diplomat in the job I mean you you've got a legacy you've got so many high commissioners before you as a career Diplomat when you look back uh and you see uh your predecessors what new thing do you bring to the table what new vision what are the golden rules of any job is never speak about your predecessor your successor or whatever but I think I'm doing my job for my success as successor uh things take a while in India you know it's a 10-year job and so I am benefiting from some of", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-50", "text": "job and so I am benefiting from some of the work done by my predecessors I'll give you an example the agreement on the mutual recognition of qualifications academic quality applications really important between the UK and India signed last year after about a decade of trying the agreement reach between the Indian government and can energy the company who had assets expropriated over 10 years ago that's a decade's worth of work so what I need to do is to sow those seeds for the next uh for the very successive successor and I think we want to do that and the environment and climate change I think we want to do that through a free trade agreement if we can and some new trade deals these are things which are going to have long-term benefits so when you when you get to know that when a career Diplomat in the UK gets to know that he's posted to La oh he or she is posted to London what is uh to uh New Delhi what is the reaction how does one well my reaction is", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-51", "text": "is the reaction how does one well my reaction is to put my shirt over my head and run around the room with joy it was fantastic I was so happy as I said I lived here a long time ago I was a teacher in indoor in 1986 and I traveled around all of the north of India for most of the year so I was just incredibly happy it's materially one of the most important countries for the UK I would say in top five in the world for the UK I think that's even more true as a result of having left the European Union and China which puts an even sharper focus on India and also because of India's own rise which will continue over the next Generation so there are kind of solid material Marxist reasons if you like for a strong UK into your relationship there's a uniqueness of the living Bridge with all its good and sometimes It's Tricky bits we talked about those in this podcast but on the whole it's a great thing I mean it's a great thing", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-52", "text": "a great thing I mean it's a great thing to see the diversity of talented success of people of South Asian origin in the UK and you speak the language because you've been here um um like in slow progress no no no and not many people know he sings very well too sir please uh yes I have heard a small song for us you must be joking but the um each week I try to watch some of a Hindi movie uh to try and improve my Hindi uh any recommendations by the way from listeners today Golden Globe so I have to yes well at the moment I'm listening to Del City It's a Wonderful AR rahman's a fantastic composer actually and I listen to him singing live and I I thought he was wonderful so um I tried to I do my you know sort of study every day I have a class every week I try to listen to some um uh Hindi movies um all of that helps with the kind of pleasure of being in this country uh it's", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-53", "text": "of pleasure of being in this country uh it's just you need Seven Lives to begin to understand this country um but I'm only on two years in and but having the comparative 1986 helps a bit because you see both some of the things which remain the same about India and some of the things which have changed enormously in 1986 there was a maruti and that was about it you know my life was spent drinking limca thumbs up and gold spots I have not turned into a diabetic as a result of that I don't know um uh but it's a very different place than Subways but it's a very old old civilization as well and that doesn't change 1986 is when we didn't even have economic liberalization as you said just the maruti that's right and we were just and the throes of the khalistani movement yeah Punjab separatism you're absolutely right because I remember at the time I I traveled all over the country all over the north um and uh I couldn't get into uh", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-54", "text": "the north um and uh I couldn't get into uh the punch-up at that time and people said you just had to go straight through I was taking some epic bus Journeys I took the bus bus from Delhi to Srinagar at that point srinica was completely open um uh beautiful Kashmir is the most beautiful place and I could I spent about a month it's still open yeah but it's harder now um uh uh really well compared to 1986 I think yeah the militancy had it because Focus was very uh very much about Punjab and I had to go straight through it I couldn't stop I couldn't see the Golden Temple now for fantastic we went to the golden temple uh I went to Chandigarh um so uh it is a very different place but a very similar place at the same time really yeah okay that's what most people say about India that some things just don't change and uh some things are so radically different yeah it's a more urban place it's a more evidently", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-55", "text": "a more urban place it's a more evidently entrepreneurial place you see it remains a very young place it's developed a lot since 1986 you can see that in all sorts of ways of course my vantage point is different in 1986 I was sitting uh usually on the roof of a very crowded bus or a train uh now I travel a bit more Comfort but it remains it's incredibly interesting the depths of culture is extraordinary unlike no other country it's why I think why India has such a great Cuisine because I think that reflects the depth of its culture yeah in Portugal and Brazil before uh yes spent plenty of time in Brussels as well and a bit a bit of time in Spain um and Brazil and India for example are very different countries but there's actually two and a half times the size of injured land mess but as noisy as India uh when you're in carnival in kind of it's pretty noisy but India provides Brazil and India have some similarities an extraordinary quality", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-56", "text": "Brazil and India have some similarities an extraordinary quality and stimulation of its popular culture dance visual arts Sports uh but Brazil doesn't have Cricket okay right you know when we when uh the other reporters uh in our office got to know and they and I got to know that you're coming in here there was it you've got to ask that running joke that everybody talks about that uh you know when you go to a British museum it's like a crime scene all our artifacts are there please ask him when is it gonna come back to India so I said okay will do I'm asking you now when is it coming back UK is a global country and it has the heritage of a global country including its museums and I'm delighted our museums are such fantastic places and some of the most visited places in the world there is now much more of a debate in the UK about its Imperial past that's only a recent thing I think you know I studied history I was a history teacher my father", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-57", "text": "I studied history I was a history teacher my father was a history teacher my grandfather both my grandfathers lived in India are both in the Army my grandfather was in the Punjabi Army in the 60s Punjabi regiment um stationed up in the Northwest Frontier then I think in Pune then became a history teacher it's great to see that debate really kicking off in the UK about its Imperial past uh and there's some great podcasts around it don't listen to uh the rest is history and also to Empire which has Anita and as well as William darimple herself a product of a living Bridge um satnam sangira's book about uh uh Empire land again he's a product of of the living Bridge um are beginning to stimulate that discussion now part of that is a very political discussion I'm a civil servant I'm not going to get into the politics of that but I noticed for example Glasgow University has just returned some artifacts in the process of returning some artifacts to India", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-58", "text": "in the process of returning some artifacts to India and that's much more of a live issue than it was now that as I say is very political um and uh but it's not it is now being discussed in a completely different way from when I was a student uncomfortable uh conversations right I mean even at The Family Table these must be uncomfortable discussions um they are all good family tables have uncomfortable discussions I like uncomfortable discussions uh particularly The Family Table and if everybody's a historian in your family then it's all the more right yes uh and my grandfather loved India actually my maternal grandfather so my nana um uh in fact I learned Hindi as a small boy without knowing it my grandfather was a good Scots and my mother's good Scots so to play golf my mother taught me to play golf and as a small boy I used to carry her golf clubs around the golf course in Scotland and she would say go and be my age and I had no idea", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-59", "text": "go and be my age and I had no idea she was saying I'm saying the wrong accent I go well I had no idea what it meant to know it's so I would go ahead and look for her Ball when she hit it oh wow although she's a very good golfer so it always landed on The Fairway so in fact it has it's funny and my grandfather would talk about a Chota Peg um and so the and you don't realize it how these words and this influence comes into your own life and it's only coming back here but judge regiment you said right yeah he was in the 16th Punjabi Punjab so he would know the Chota Peg of course he would yeah yeah absolutely and uh you know pictures of him I've got pictures for him with his javans and stuff like that and he had a life I remember watching him as a small very small kid I'd watch him when he had his breakfast porridge good Scott again chop up a banana and put it", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-60", "text": "good Scott again chop up a banana and put it on it habits from India okay so that was unique is it I I you know I um I remember once our first correspondent uh in uh in London uh was a person called Mr Trevor Barnard and I knew that he had been in India and he was like he he studied in England in India but one day I had my baby with me and I was you know I was just rocking him to sleep and I just said and I kept saying that because that's the only duty I knew uh makhan Roti and Chini right so that was the only one so he was sitting in front of me and says why didn't you sing the complete uh one so I said what so he says I just looked at him and I said how do you know and Trevor who went to London after who went back to England after Independence um in 48 or 49 he went back and he said it's just come back to me my nanny used", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-61", "text": "it's just come back to me my nanny used to say this in Patna in Bihar when he was a baby so you're talking about like I don't know 20s or 30s and it just came back to him and he knew the entire one and I didn't yeah so these are our legacies you know which new generations would probably not remember this at all you have experienced this with your grandfather and it crops up in so many ways George Orwell being born in um Bihar I think it was um the other day uh very sadly a great singer of of my youth Terry Hall the specials which is a great band when I was growing up died it reminded me that Jerry damus who was really the guy who was the inspiration for a lot of the music I listened to when I was uh growing up was born in Ooty um his father was a thicker there so you just have these human relationships I think one of the things I'd like to do is to get", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-62", "text": "of the things I'd like to do is to get more Brits to come to India now I think you have many many people I mean you're going to the UK students are skilled workers as visitors as well as tourists uh but I'd like to get more Brits to India because I think that Brits need to see the reality of India Today is it well when I bring a minister to Hyderabad for example which we did a few months ago you know he was just bowled over by what he saw yeah no idea about the scale of the opportunity in this the dynamism and the change so India is represented abroad in lots of different ways but one I think I think that I would like British people to understand is this is what the reality of India is today going back to having a prime minister who knows that new India that's an enormous help I have to ask this question another question which I was told you must ask he's not going to answer it but ask it nonetheless so", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-63", "text": "not going to answer it but ask it nonetheless so I am going to ask you about it what is it the the hullabaloo over Harry and Megan and the soap opera that's happening I don't know whether you want to answer this will you answer it I'll leave that to read it's like books and viewers of the crown and the many other things that go on it's like a joint family Indian joint family Hindu joint family or even a Muslim joint family of India it sounds like that it looks like that everything about it is is just that I'm quite sure that uh exactly for those reasons the Indians would be able to give a particular take and perspective do people ask you about that when you move around in in India they do a bit odd so much actually um uh but I appreciate it something of global interest in UK's constitutional monarchy has been for many many centuries um and it is a subject of enormous interest uh I think to the world it's interesting you raise the", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-64", "text": "I think to the world it's interesting you raise the monarchy I mean the queen sadly died last year uh and you now have King Charles uh the third as uh is most King Charles I thought as Harmonic and there is somebody who's visited India many times many many times enormous interest in Indian culture um uh enormous interest uh in all many aspects of Indian culture and interestingly when each year in the UK uh the Monarch gives an address to the nation on Christmas Day and I noticed this was the first address by uh his majesty the king that he referred he's the he is the the head of the of the Anglican church but he referred in his address to gurudwara's and to Temples amongst other places which were supporting British life that tells you again something about the changes in my country two questions I want to ask uh one uh like you said Mr sunuk there's a huge interest here can you give us a sense of what how UK looks at the new India as you", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-65", "text": "what how UK looks at the new India as you said and modi's policy you know how UK is looking at it and as an ambassador as a High Commissioner how what is your evaluation of so I won't get into that you know the internal engine politics uh I'll leave that to uh to to India what I I will say is the enormous interest in India in the UK uh full of reasons we've talked about because I mean you're going back to what you were quoting uh prime minister Industries India Pacific will be really the center of global growth India will be one I think one of the three defining countries of the 21st century uh and with an enormous potential I mean the next 25 years I think can be great ones for India and India's already on that path towards being a much bigger economy um and it already has a big impact in the UK partly through the diaspora party and that's the cultural ways whether dare I said chicken tikka masala hopefully I thought", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-66", "text": "I said chicken tikka masala hopefully I thought some other some other dishes as well uh and partly in other ways so I think the UK sees a huge opportunity for a deeper UK India partnership what's interesting to me is I think India sees a positive Potential from on the other way as well about a close relationship with the UK so but I want that story to be told more I want people to understand and see what's going on and into the reality of India today you live it every day here I live it to an extent every day here but I would like more people exposed to it that's why it's great by the way that now India's reopened e visas for Brits because that's going to stimulate many more people to come here and I said the economy is very badly hit by the war Ukraine Russia War sure we are also reading a lot of stories about UK economy getting a very very bad Hitman inflations are going up so how is UK tackling that and", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-67", "text": "going up so how is UK tackling that and uh do you see similarity between the Indian economic position and your position right now well the two economies obviously have very different sizes and structure I mean uh GDP in ahead and India is about 20th at the UK but the economy is 20 times the size so India is now overtaking UK in terms of global total size of the economy and that's a great thing I mean it's a thing massively in the UK's interests the war is having an effect on the UK and I think it's admirable the UK despite those effects is determined to you know defend Ukraine um and its territory against the uh President Putin's invasion it means we have to face some tough choices our prime minister Rishi sunak actually beginning of this year has really set out what he's trying to do you know to grow the economy half inflation uh tackle illegal migration which we talked about earlier as well so it will be quite an important year for the UK", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-68", "text": "it will be quite an important year for the UK but I think it's also a reason why you want to have that closer UK India relationship because I think having a free trade agreement for example means you can stimulate both economies having the cooperation on climate change means you're going to do it in a sustainable way because that is one of the great challenges of our time is how we India's Got This fantastic growth opportunity but doing it sustainably is going to be one of the great challenges for India and what happens in India will affect all of the world that is the scale of India now so working together on that but at the same time making sure we're more secure that's the era of geopolitical competition you want the growth you want it sustainable and you also want it secure and that's why I think the defense and security Corporation will matter much more so we have all of this history and it's complicated sometimes as we've discussed but you want to be building for the future", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-69", "text": "discussed but you want to be building for the future all the things we need to do over the next 25 years and I think that's that is exactly what I think Prime Minister Modi and prime minister Richie sunac wants to talk more about in conclusion uh hi commissioner I just want to ask you because you know I've never got you to call me Alex today not one day I will uh you know 80s and 90s you've seen India then as far as foreign policy is concerned it it used to bother India that India was looked at with the prism of Indo Park always India Pakistan and from then we've moved to 2000s 2023 to now now it's become India China everything that happens here is with that Chinese perspective so uh do you see this always this hyphenation when it comes with India I think it's India in the world you're absolute writer has been a dehyphenization of India and Pakistan and there's been a bit of a of a changing of the last letter from K", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-70", "text": "a of a changing of the last letter from K to C in the Pacific into pack but actually I think it's India in the world I think India's impact in the world is so much greater now uh partly through just Internationals all over the world partly through what happens in India will affect the world on climate change um on health for example and that is that's the reality we're in now and that's a challenge for a country which is still going through a huge phase of Economic Development which I think will on the next 25 years but it's also the great opportunity and that's why I think a country like the UK fifth sixth bit largest economy in the world uh still with a country with unusually large Global interests Marston will work with India but it's great time it's a great time to be doing this because there is a lot of opportunity amidst all of them many challenges and I think that prime minister mode is very good at seeing as he has over climate change how do", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-71", "text": "at seeing as he has over climate change how do you turn that into an opportunity and I think that's something for the UK as well you know uh High Commissioners has a has a lovely Indian dog I saw he is such a gorgeous Beast she is she is sorry she is a lovely rample Hound uh beautiful dog um uh and uh just a joy an absolute wonder that prime minister modi's been saying that we should Indians should you know adopt Indian dogs Indian breeds and here you have the High Commissioner has an Indian breed dog and she's she's gorgeous she's really cute she is absolutely gorgeous and she certainly won't be part of any uh trade deal is all I could say she's doing absolutely with us but if there's somewhere as part of that James trade deal we can get desperate boomera to come to the UK look at that now you drive a hard bargain don't you what a talent though thank you very much for being part of this podcast thank", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "d0023e38986d-72", "text": "you very much for being part of this podcast thank you we look forward to having you here again soon after the G20 thanks very much indeed thank you thank you for watching or listening into this podcast do like and subscribe on whichever Channel you have heard this or seen it namaste thank you [Music]", "source": "Oe18vkiQo8o"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-0", "text": "we have to differentiate between the terrorists and the people of Kashmir the people of Kashmir are part of India the terrorists come from Pakistan they were motor shells and articles landing on the head if they attempted infiltration from any area you have to tell me that okay they have tried to do something they have raided our post but we have gone across and already raided a post or did something when they come to meet you on the LC the small flag meeting you are the ones putting on helmets in bpj while they are in normal caps it should be the other way around after eight months he sent me a photograph where the pakis were with bpj and helmets and our people were in that one fine day after the parliament was attacked we were mobilized and here was my whole Battalion we were already geared up ready to go I got into a bonnet of a Jeep and spoke to all women I said the nation needs us the morale of the whole Battalion was much higher", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-1", "text": "the morale of the whole Battalion was much higher much different I was feeling better since 62 on the line of actual control and except one or two orders incidents in 67 or very recently in galwan we have not allowed violence to go beyond a point in America the Open Sky policy came around in late 90s people like Elon Musk were private players started getting into the space domain in India also the government realized that we also should have an opportunity for our private thanks to the Army it has been a dream run I could do everything possible which any Soldier would aspired welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is Lieutenant General Anil Kumar Bhatt who retired as military Secretary of the Indian army in 2020. he has had a 40-year career in the forces where he held major appointments including that of the dgmo during the doklum crisis against China with General bipin rawat as his chief he also served as the chinar corps Commander from 2018", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-2", "text": "served as the chinar corps Commander from 2018 when the Indian army carried out extensive major operations against terrorist leadership in Kashmir Valley and eliminated major groups there he served three times in Jammu and Kashmir and has held several important posts including that of commander of the 21st Mountain division he's also the first director general of the Indian space Association thank you very much for coming on the podcast uh uh General but we are very honored that you've come here my colleague Ajit Dubai is here he handles defense and as you would know Ajit is has got a very bad throat which is a Delhi phenomenon I think but in spite of that he was he's going to join me ma'am I got it on an Air Force tarmac in jodhpur so okay not eating what he's trying to say that it's uh but you know he'll join me because you know he has more domain experience and things and uh we will ask you about the current hat that you wear which is the", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-3", "text": "about the current hat that you wear which is the space program but before that we want to talk about your years in the Army and uh as uh you know because the curiosity is of course uh about that uh you were the chinar core commander in 2018 so when a large number of terrorists were neutralized in the valley could you tell us a little bit about those years uh well amongst my entire career if I look at some look back and look at something which was like a dream that was my tenure as a chinarco command and like I would like to share with you that every morning when I would get up get dressed up and just before I left to meet the forward trips I would close my eyes and thank God and you know what I would say that this life should continue forever that you are there where the whole nation is looking up to you to perform you lead the best men of the Indian army and whatever you do will help this nation to become stronger and it was always", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-4", "text": "this nation to become stronger and it was always every day it would make me feel that I am in the ultimate job and I wish that I would have continued like that forever right so what happened in 2018 sir well how is it different from earlier years because of this these operations that you undertook now I'll start with the background you know militancy or what we call CI operations in Kashmir have been waxing and waning and by 2008 we had got a grasp of it then started the New Movement where people were getting involved more civilians were being killed and it was something like intifida they were created and that peaked in 216 when a young boy called burhanwani was killed there was the first social media terrorist a kind of anger he could create amongst the Normal public amongst the youth they brought Kashmir to a standstill it was a new kind of movement where it was people coming out there was Stone belting there were large crowds when a civilian or a", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-5", "text": "there were large crowds when a civilian or a terrorist was killed and this was all being organized it was more to attract the world opinion the world media and get a feeling that everyone in Kashmir does not want to be part of India and added to that in the same year if you know was when the incident happened in Udi where there was a attack on a new Battalion which was coming in and we lost a large number of troops of course we reacted to it and that was the first time the Indian army went across the line of control and we sent a message to Pakistan but from then on when I went and took over to me was to now take back that take back the narrative from the terrorists from the separatists for that what I identified what all I have to do firstly is convince my own men that they are doing the best job and they are broad shoulders to hold their hand and for that every day I was out communicating with my men with", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-6", "text": "every day I was out communicating with my men with my young officers assuring them and also telling them what was more important that we have to differentiate between the terrorists and the people of Kashmir the people of Kashmir are part of India the terrorists come from Pakistan or are elements who do not believe in what is India and they the only thing for them is the gun they have to be eliminated and one one thing more to me it was Carol killing of terrorists was not a parameter that brought success it's something else that because I did not put that pressure on my command the largest number of terrorists were killed in that decade from 2008 till today that year has been the last largest number of neutralizations now one was this thing the other was what was the numbers uh it was around 274. and the other thing which happened with along with that was I was able to get all the security forces together and that is an experience so that is what I had learned when with", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-7", "text": "experience so that is what I had learned when with my previous experiences in the valley where differences between police crpf intelligence we would lose out and here my tenure even in the Northeast as a core commander and now in the valley and one of the persons I learned this all this was from General we kissing he was my GOC when I was in the valley and he he really laid down a lot of importance to inter-services cooperation so this is what I ensured and by two months of my tenure we were all like a Band of Brothers the IB Chief there the raw Chief there the DG DGP of police we were all working together and that Synergy produced its strength produced Effectiveness in all domains I'm going to come to social media and taking back the narrative later but uh you know um you said that you didn't put forward this uh goal to your men that number so many I want killed but it just happened because of various reasons that you say but what", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-8", "text": "because of various reasons that you say but what was the brief given to you when you started there well the brief to me of course there was no written brief but what I understood it and I I had an advantage I was going down going there after being the director general of military operations I knew the chief's mind clearly and what was most important is to bring the level of wireless control it and your Chief was yes okay and there was a clarity that we have to use the gun violence only against terrorists and we have to differentiate we have to win over The Narrative of Kashmir win over the people of Kashmir and that has been an ongoing effort and I'm so happy that we could achieve and create conditions that in the next year after I left the government was confident enough to remove 370. article 3 and 170 which has changed the narrative in Krishna right but before that happened uh it said that just because of this very strong army action against uh against terrorists", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-9", "text": "this very strong army action against uh against terrorists Pakistan you know probably decided that some big incident has to be done because otherwise the Army will continue and it's said that the purvama attack was a result of the successes that the Indian army got in 2018. so just before I uh hand over to you I for our viewers listeners who don't know about the details of this the the foreign audience or Indians living abroad just a brief uh explainer that this was the pulvama attack was on February 14 2019 where a vehicle-born suicide bomber attacked a convoy of vehicles on the Jammu Srinagar National Highway in pulbama 40 crpf soldiers died in that attack and one kashmiri who was the perpetrator right sir so can you tell us about that that pulwama attack firstly your assessment and I agree with you that because we were uh the violence levels were under control we had put all terrorist organizations on the back fort the separatists on the back foot i", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-10", "text": "back fort the separatists on the back foot i i as a core Commander anticipated there would be some reaction and the two vulnerabilities with the military forces have in a place like Kashmir one is the IDS that is uh explosive devices which can be used on highways and here also I will tell you the challenge there was to bring back normalcy let people move freely and I'll give you example say 10 years back a convoy moving on the highway from banihal to Srinagar everything was everything was stopped stand still for those two three hours slowly allowed people to move along with us and this cost of normalcy this cost of Peace was that the suicide attack took place it was because we were allowing the people of Kashmir to have a more peaceful life but yes that is the cost one has to have and my fears were too one was ID or other was an attack on some headquarter hmm and here I would tell you about there was a Jai Shri Muhammad terrorist sent a few", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-11", "text": "a Jai Shri Muhammad terrorist sent a few months earlier to attack the Srinagar base and there was an announcement that this is going to happen we traced who that person was he was in the thrall Valley and he had told he had he had a team with him whom he had instructed that they have to attack Srinagar and if they don't do it he himself will come he was a senior Commander we found him and eliminated him like a rat we were doing it all over for IDs also it was there but yes one odd societal it is we have to succeed 40 times it is one failure which makes a difference where we lost so many people yeah was there any failure in Sops in that I mean there will be inquiries there will be new Sops which have probably been laid after that but uh what went wrong sir 40 lives was a very high price to pay uh you know maybe at that time and I'd of course left so I would you had left only", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-12", "text": "of course left so I would you had left only five five six days back uh about three weeks back three weeks back what was uh the thing is maybe what I felt was maybe too many of a very large number of troops were moved together there was snow the banihal had been closed for some time there was pressure in your mood that troops have to move in and that could have been maybe planned in a more logical manner that such a large vulnerability would have not been there and do you think that uh it's also Intel information which the other side which the pakistanis had that there is a change of guard that a new co-commander is coming in that would have not made the difference because the person who replaced me both may be better James Dylan who we had yeah there was total continuity between him and me and what we thought of how operations had to be done how the whole story had to be carried forward and uh that would not have been the reason it was they found that vulnerability", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-13", "text": "been the reason it was they found that vulnerability that day they must have been carrying out the Reiki for some time and that was the day they found that there was a very large number moving and because there was snow because uh all around and this large number would they would have come to know maybe from Jammu itself and they would have moved a little guard was down maybe yes every day when the Convoy is moved and I that is my my memory goes back to when I was even a colonel GS that was something like a bright coming in we were very cautious we used to have our guards on all along but like I said free movement allowing the kashmiri people also to move along when the Convoy is moving that was the cost of that as you said prior to moving into the valley as a general core Commander you served as the Director General military operations now it was during that tenure uh Jal rawat had taken over as the chief of Army staff he was very aggressive on", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-14", "text": "the chief of Army staff he was very aggressive on this front and recently the CDs also said that they took the two you people took the war to the enemy yeah how was it what was the thinking at that time sir and how how did you achieve it now I would give you an example previously if there were infiltrations which took place into Kashmir Valley the troops on the LC used to respond we used to take counter measures do anti-in filtration acts if they came inside we Chase we've got after them the IDS were put on our side now we decided there is the another on the across the line of control is sitting Pakistan which is troubling us but the troops their troops are not paying for it so the aim was to put a cost into the actions the cost was if they helped for infiltration we did actions we use artillery we use direct weapons so all along the LC was activated the outcome of that was that the Pakistani troops who were just bystanders", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-15", "text": "that the Pakistani troops who were just bystanders now were paying for the actions and this Resolute action for a long time has had its results support for infiltration in all by local commanders definitely reduced and they're like like was this your personal observation that they are having a good time or was it feedback from the ground troops or whose idea was it that pakistanis were having we knew that uh in the whole CI operations which were happening in the valley or even in the area of rajouri the Pakistani troops would not get affected by it they would assist these infiltrators to get through and how would they assessor we know we know how they assist but for our listeners how would they assist if you could explain what what what actually you did Sir uh firstly they would provide a base from where they could take off and infiltrate give them information where are the gaps across where our ambushes and other things have been put and thirdly at times carry out a exchange of fire to", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-16", "text": "thirdly at times carry out a exchange of fire to distract our troops so that these people could infiltrate this was a modus operandi which has been there for a large number of years but now here there was a cost there were motor shells and articles landing on the head if they attempted infiltration from any area so did you like once you took over General rawat came in the team now you decided that if you fire a bullet at us to support a terrorist we will pay it back in RT shells and heavy fire because I remember you people had uh you people had put the turrets of the old Vision tanks if you could tell us about that sir this was basically to increase the potency of the direct fire so the the caliber is slightly higher of these turrets the weapons in which are there it provides your protection which weapon was it basically we went into the caliber which was slightly higher 2.50 at time and use some of the nte aircraft guns which are there on", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-17", "text": "some of the nte aircraft guns which are there on the tank and all which we used for direct firing because it gave us better range and it gave us better Effectiveness not that this has not happened before that's what I wanted to know is it a psychological pressure also by doing that yeah not that it had not happened before or military commanders had not done it before but now there was a direction from the highest Authority that we have to be more punitive in our actions against Pakistan inflict inflict a total cost in the Pakistan Army does that help in the moral do you think of the forces firstly uh it helps the morale of our troops definitely but more importantly the other side the enemy now is more cautious to carry out any activities which are inimical to us and so he has to pay a cost for it I've been visiting the LC for a long time so like 20 years and even before that TV we used to see our troops wearing BP jackets and all", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-18", "text": "to see our troops wearing BP jackets and all uh did this punitive action change the behavior of the Pakistani no I I'll tell you further how it happened and of course I am not the only one who did it when I went to Srinagar and I would go to my troops on the forward area on the line of control and OD had happened a few years back my directions to my commanding officers to my Brigade commanders was that you any such action would not be acceptable to me and if it happens your reaction should happen before you report you have to tell me that okay they have tried to do something they have rated a post but we have gone across and already rated a post or did something this is your uh these were your orders to troops to uh uh this is when they came in sent terrorists and killed our people on the LLC your orders were that if they try it again you will carry out an action against them and then report to me yes", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-19", "text": "an action against them and then report to me yes this was my uh my direction was you will not look back for orders you will your reaction at the local level will take place and you will inform me after that now what happened because of that because my ghatak platoons my special forces were carrying out Ricky all along the LC it created an automatic question across combined with us carrying out artifier direct fire what happened was and this is uh I one of the shows on the LC I told him well when they come to meet you on the LC a small flag meeting you are the ones putting on helmets in bpj while they are in normal caps it should be the other way around and sure enough after eight months after eight months he sent me a photograph where the pakis were with bpga and helmets and our people were in ads it's a psychological game it's a game that's right so a couple of questions before that you mentioned ghatak platoon some of us know it who've covered", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-20", "text": "ghatak platoon some of us know it who've covered what is a ghatak platoon it sounds very sexy SF sir how do they operate what were they wrecking for what were they looking for which you talk now the difference the security Special Forces which are there they quite a bit previously we would use them inside the valley who carry out surgical operations there are troops who are better trained they're better armed and they as a team they carry out very good operations and for many years they were carrying out operations inside and Tetris operations but some time back and it was much before my tenure during General hooda's time that the rakis for strategic targets across started getting taken place so the SF today was now focusing on targets across the line of control if and when required now that is at the level of core and command but at the level of the Battalion Commander his special forces it is the best 20 to 30 men well trained highly motivated who are able to carry out operations of equal grade", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-21", "text": "who are able to carry out operations of equal grade like the security forces they caliber their motivation and even today their weapons are of a category that they can carry out small Surgical and effective operations and this is each Battalion has it even on the LCS sometimes battalions create two of these units now way back they were called Commandos it was called a Commando platoon of infantry battalion this name ghatak was given by late General Joshi and he said they should be called differently and they should be called ghataks and that is how this and ghatak is one who who inflicts casualty yeah so what is the mental makeup of somebody who works in a Gothic platoon like when you meet a person uh who's from the from that group how does what is the mental makeup of that person he knows that he may not come back from a from an operation from a task given to him he may not come back alive right what is the mental makeup uh they are like they are the", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-22", "text": "the mental makeup uh they are like they are the Gladiators of a CO they are they are pampered they are even allowed to put in a special dress they are only focusing they're they're the lead boys at many times people say no it's only creating a few experts in the whole Battalion or the whole regiment should be equally good but to have such a team motivates many others to reach that levels reach that level of caliber military capability and all that and of course the cost is that if required they are the first ones who will give the life but that apart it is not in an infantry battalion I would expect everyone to be about them right so did you uh at any point of time sir send men across which if you can't say I will understand but when you send men on these tasks and you know that they may not come back what does it feel oh you know this is one of the most for senior commander and especially when you receive you're much closer", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-23", "text": "commander and especially when you receive you're much closer but when you're a core Commander maybe you are at a distance but every man and if at all he goes the harm way if he goes for a risk you have sleepless nights it is like your own son your own child going across so this this is one of the most difficult thing for any commander I would not specify that did I send troops across or not and all but I would only give you an example that there was a Gurkha Battalion in mayor and one day while petrolink was being carried out one of our Jesus was it by a sniper by a team which had come very close to the line of control he got a bullet and later he succumbed to his injuries in the next five hours there was a blast in a post in Pakistan where six people died I won't get into the details how it happened and of course I did not send any troops across but we did it so it is", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-24", "text": "troops across but we did it so it is not only doing it physically with your troops there are proxies there are many other methods to handle the enemy on the line of control The Taking of badla for a loss of life of your man that is extremely important isn't it oh yes especially for the troops on the ground because it is if you hit me I have to hit you twice if not 10 times and for this you get an okay from from the chief from the political establishment or you don't wait for that uh you know you you have a sense of what your Chief wants what the political establishment wants and this is one thing that when I went as a core Commander I knew my military hierarchy and my political hierarchy will hold my hand for any action I as a core Commander decided that is one thing there were no orders to be given it was a sense and I knew what my nation and my Army wanted this was when you went in as core Commander this is", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-25", "text": "was when you went in as core Commander this is not your first tenure yeah you have uh you also commanded your Battalion there uh can you tell us like uh we have heard uh you gave a very uh motivational speech standing on a bonnet of a Jeep I know commanding especially and that to win action environment in place like Kashmir uh like um I can imagine like I've I talked to a lot of young officers everybody says that when you go you give the motivational speech you feel like a Napoleon Bonaparte kind of a feeling that's uh so please share your experience with us the story is a little different this happened when I was in the planes I was in a peace station in Ranchi but before that you know for any Soldier for anyone who goes to the military despite everything the ultimate would be that he goes to war and he fights for ignition and if necessary gives the Supreme sacrifice when I was a CEO I nearly got it and", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-26", "text": "when I was a CEO I nearly got it and that was because Opera Karam happened and one fine day after the parliament was attacked we were mobilized and we knew we would be going to war in three to four days from Ranchi we had moved to the Border in Rajasthan and in the next 24 to 48 hours we were ready to go across and here was my whole Battalion we were already geared up ready to go and I felt okay and maybe this is the last time I'll meet them together before we go in and we go across so I wanted to talk to all my men and that is the time I got into a bonnet of a Jeep and spoke to all my men I said the nation needs us we are here now today to do what every Soldier would want to do and I talked to them for 15 to 20 minutes and yes the morale of the whole Battalion was much higher much different I was feeling better so that is the incident which my young", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-27", "text": "feeling better so that is the incident which my young officers always remember also is known for those inspirational speeches that he used to give yeah of course he was on a much higher pedestal than a higher category 71 War at that time it said that his speech is also so in paragraph when we nearly went to war it it was those feelings and just before you get into the ring and I thought it was very important that I could communicate with each and every man of mine and it happened we got together it was a sand dune to raise myself that everybody could see me I used the Jeep and got into the Bonnet and then you also took them to I took them to the URI to the line of control and any any in incidents there which we would like to well of course like you know on the uh LC the basic is the psychological game especially when a new Battalion comes in the other side wants to put them down morally by causing casualties by firing by", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-28", "text": "down morally by causing casualties by firing by doing other things and that was the most formative time of a unit and my unit did pretty well there and even in a few months we had exchange of fires and all which we effectively had so when uh you know when casualties occur in their ranks uh the first thing they would tell the terrorists when I'm talking about the soldiers in the Pakistan Army when there are casualties there they would probably give uh the directive to to their foot soldiers the terrorists who they've infiltrated that they should inflict casualties among civilians right and then comes this thing how how do you manage that so uh once you have said you know because basically chaos and confusion and fear should be generated you once said that and I'll quote you the Army will abide by its rule that's the Indian army will abide by its rule not to go after terrorist families or non-armed civilians so there are many who say that you know these are conventional", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-29", "text": "are many who say that you know these are conventional um tactics should I use that word that is used by the Army whereas the terrorists on the ground are not using that uh you know that is what differentiates terrorists and people in uniform who represent a nation and especially as the Indian army where we are the Army People's Army and People's Army mean as the people of kashmirals and to reduce to cut off this cycle of violence that more terrorists are not produced locally that the people of Kashmir get convinced that this Army is also to protect them we have to be different to the than the terrorists so at times even people uh terrorists from a family does not mean we have to Target the whole family we shouldn't and we did it and what it helped was that the next Sun did not become a divorce there were many whom we could win over and in fact as you know even the quants were extra risked who the Indian army had won over and who became a", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-30", "text": "Indian army had won over and who became a small strong weapon for us so it is very very important that any army especially in in CI operations and that is where success is that we win the hearts and Minds continuing on Kashmir issue prior to core Commander you handled Kashmir very well as dgmo now the dgmo also gets to talk to his Pakistani counterpart now when you took the war to the enemy I remember they they were requesting very frequently for talks on Tuesday so uh what did they tell you okay what was the major you know their narrative has been that the Pakistan Army is in no way involved in supporting the terrorists that lie would be repeated by them and even when the we started more Resolute actions more artifier more Resolute actions by us uh always there was a cry that we should reduce it we should reduce this exchange of fire because that that gave me an indication that the policy we had decided for more Resolute action was paying and uh on ground their", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-31", "text": "Resolute action was paying and uh on ground their local commanders what they also request for flag meetings local levels and even in meetings which took place at the Brigade Commander level like at punch and other places so we record a podcast just a week or so after this gruesome killing that had happened in Jammu where Hindus were targeted now the villagers in that place they are saying army camp for now now you know the the thing is that you one can understand you know that [Music] but is that a solution that her Village May Army Campo that's not feasible also so how is one supposed to do this firstly I'll uh just a little bit I'll try to tell you and you are well aware of that all these areas there is a population which is a mix of Hindus and Muslims as you go north maybe they are more Muslims as you come towards Jammu they are more Hindus and these are small pockets of small villages four or five houses spread", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-32", "text": "pockets of small villages four or five houses spread over maybe a walk of two hours three hours six hours a very difficult area and easily a terrorist can hit somewhere because we cannot be everywhere so one of the schemes which have we've been running for a long time is the VDC Village defense committees and more importantly arming these local ex-servicemen maybe ex policemen or some youth from the local Village and I have found this to be very effective I remember 60 year old six gentlemen proudly I always used to call these vdcs when I was a brigade commander in that area coming with his weapon he had been awarded a center medal because he had held back four terrorists for nearly four to five hours and even killed one and he had served in the armed forces only for five years okay now there are challenges there because the weapon we give them is not an AK previously it was a three not three and the Terrace has a weapon which is more advanced I think the", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-33", "text": "has a weapon which is more advanced I think the Armed Forces locally are looking at it giving them better weapons training them and preparing them it is very important and to effectively control this area especially razori punch Jammu it would be most important to make these vdcs more strong spread them out this culture and these people will be able to and yes they would have to be anchor posts with army can react but like like I'm telling you maybe at times the time when by the time the Army reacts it will take a little time do you think that Pakistan is you know you you've done more than one tenure in Jammu Kashmir you know that these are waves uh that happen you know there's the ebbing and things that happen do you think that Pakistan is on the verge of creating yet another uh you know uh a rise in militancy in Jammu Kashmir using local locals in this that effort would go on they have always been trying this but I I don't know I do not know", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-34", "text": "this but I I don't know I do not know do not know the details as to who did this firing but I'm sure there would be terrorists from across and not locals locals by and large whatever Community they belong to I'm talking about the pancharaja sector are more looking for peace or they are convinced by the Indian narrative okay so now that we have uh talked about Jammu Kashmir let me uh turn your attention to the Eastern sector you were director General military operations during the doklum crisis so could you tell us what happened then okay uh to start with what exactly happened on 16th to 18th June when we decided 2017 now we're talking about yeah 270 2017 was when her party of Chinese troops as well as construction workers came to a point which was 200 meters from dokala which is a pass and they wanted to extend that road which was there up till there and take it to a Ridgeline which was called zamfiri just one and a", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-35", "text": "which was called zamfiri just one and a half to two kilometers they had to cross one Nala called torsanala and thereafter go there and the implications was that if they had made that route to that point zamferi Ridge which asparas belongs and today also we believe is bhutanese it would they would have a peek into our Siliguri Valley entire Siliguri Corridor the chickens will be seen from there which was 25 to 30 kilometers a major strategic vulnerability would have been created so there was a choice to stop them there stop that road there or Let It Go now the technicality which they claimed and it was a question which was there that they and we also agree to one thing is that that land where they were wanting to make that road belong to Bhutan so going across into another country to stop the third country was a major challenge to take the decision but that red line was clearly understood by me as a dgmo by my chief General rawat who became the", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-36", "text": "dgmo by my chief General rawat who became the CDs and even by the government and we decided on that day to go across and stop them and Sir like most of the people don't know this fact that docala is a docala is in Bhutan now you're talking about Plateau or the doklam plateau is now called so how far were we from there when we uh actually positioned when we saw the Chinese trying to build a road uh on in this area uh just 200 meters 200 to 300 meters okay and we were uh on Indian soil yeah we were on Indian soil uh fortunately in Sikkim compared to all other places there's a distinct Ridge line okay which forms which is like a boundary it is more defined than in many other places like we have between India and China it is not very clearly defined but here it is defined better okay but the question was this land which was there did it belong to Bhutan or China China claimed it was this Bhutan claimed it", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-37", "text": "China China claimed it was this Bhutan claimed it was this and it was basically an issue of the triunction between the three countries we claim it is at batangla while they claimed it it was a camachan it made a difference of eight to ten kilometers deeper okay and that was the area which is called the dolam plant and where it ends towards India or where it overlooks the Siliguri Corridor is called the zamferi rich so at what point of time did we decide that we are going to move uh the I think that what bulldozers the Cathay would land uh universe and it wasn't those 24 to 48 hours it decided okay uh I'll just give you a brief background to it fortunately when I took over as a director general of military operations in November 2016. and uh General rawat was the white chief that time there was a delegation which came from Pakistan from sorry China from the pla to here to India and fortunately we had one day interaction with them they came and", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-38", "text": "we had one day interaction with them they came and met the white Chief they met me as a dgmo and in that interaction I could meet the first theater commander of pla of China his name was and he stayed till June 2020 and there were the the officers from the Tibetan military region the xinjiangular tourism it gave me a talking to them though through an interpreter did give me a sense of who they were and in the world they talk of course we talk to many things and how to keep the Lac peaceful and all others somehow maybe I got a sixth sense that they could create some trouble some time this year hmm in in somewhere on their line I was not very sure where but it was some somewhere that sure I thought they will they will test us they will probe us and this I think was the opinion of the G false so uh on June 16th is much later the action started earlier where there's a place called the plateau or there's a finger area", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-39", "text": "place called the plateau or there's a finger area we call it in Sikkim only where they try to do unnecessary showing of forts even Vehicles they try to take it from our side of the perception of the line of control which was very well defined they wanted to come on a track which was on site there was banging of vehicles and it started with small Vehicles banging with each other and to come to handle the Chinese we send a little bigger one which when they banged into it was their vehicle which is good it just sounds so it sounds like a fight in you know delhi's suburbs so it is not a war but it is a psychological game it is okay and these psychological games are very important because there's no firing sir explain this thing the thing is there is oh and if you see the lse has been peaceful for so many years is that over the years both sides have defined rules of the engagement engagement how when troops meet what will they do that we will", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-40", "text": "when troops meet what will they do that we will not use Firearms uh how will situations be handled now they at times cross over even a physical hitting each other's vehicle or getting into a physical thing like it happened in yangte is best avoided right but it does happen and it is very important to test each other's results and to keep the nerves right because it when General naravna was here he explained that when the troops are that they are carrying firearms and it requires a great deal of restraint uh that uh not to use that firearm and keep the spirit and letter of that treaty Alive by not using that firearm despite provocation and like if you see for so many years we have been since 62 on the line of actual control and except one or two orders incidents in 67 or very recently in galwan we have not allowed violence to go beyond a point right so let's get Back Sir so what happened that day then 48 hours now firstly so whenever Summers", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-41", "text": "day then 48 hours now firstly so whenever Summers happened and that has been happening for a few years we we had started putting troops for actualized troops troops who could go operate in high altitude in all our sensitive areas beat many other areas so we had adequate troops available to react to face a contingency that was a backup now when the these doses came and these people Construction Company people came on 16th the challenge was if he pushes his Dozer how is the man going to stop it without firing these are pla doses okay either he has to fire it's not private or anything it's their Fajr yes they're construction companies okay like like our border road water roads something but with border troops okay so it was okay to tell them to stop not to move the loser forward but if he physically tries to use the Dozer and tries to move and do which they tried they started clearing the murder or something we had to stop them physically fortunately border road organizations dozers were", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-42", "text": "stop them physically fortunately border road organizations dozers were on this side so the first so to say troops which went across they also took these dose so we had forts on forts okay to at least Stop Those roses that is how we allowed these two doses to come and if you go to the website or anywhere you will see that Chinese picture of it they have taken out showing that Indian big vehicles across on this side so because we had it there and then rawat and myself we decided we might have valued so it's a crossover on the boundary you are doing at this stage yes it was 200 meters across okay but but it was as per user right so is that viewed as a proactive aggressive measure done by India you know for us it was very clearly defined that we do not allow them to cross the torsanala which would have led them to the zamferi Ridge and created a vulnerability for us that was our red line hmm and we ensured that that red", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-43", "text": "red line hmm and we ensured that that red line is not crossed when you did it the Chinese also reacted in a very aggressive manner they put in their missile systems they even today we see a lot of satellite pictures showing a huge Chinese Camp along that area so what did they do when you stopped them from moving ahead firstly they brought additional troops there there was a buildup of troops at the point of contact and other than that they try to activate the whole area of Sikkim they brought in more forces closer to into the chumbi valley Edge that is there to your dong to other areas they brought in regiments of Tanks which were put much more closer to the line of actual control they put in missile they put in and they activated their airfields in the closer depth it was complete show of force and what did we do oh yes we also we we built up our forces and we were also prepared for any kind of contingency so can we today say that now", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-44", "text": "of contingency so can we today say that now we also have a military camp in that area or we have built around on the bhutanese territory to just protect our interest no we are not across on these territory okay but because we her in second we have an advantage is that we are on the ridge line okay and even dolam is lower than where we are at local okay we have an advantage the place where they build up when people say that okay they have built up later it is an area which is claimed by Bhutan and China both okay it is not Indian there okay our line Lac is very clearly defined in Sikkim and we hold and have bunkers on it sir you have dealt with the Chinese as dgmo now uh every few years the Chinese keep changing their goal post they say when you deal with them at such a high level does it surprise you that a country which claims to be a superpower economically militarily is behaving in such a petty manner that", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-45", "text": "is behaving in such a petty manner that is trying to encroach upon Indian or bhutanese or everybody else's land inch by inch the thing is on the line of actual control they the aim is to test the resolve test what we will allow them to do and keep the Lac active and it is as it is becoming more powerful both economically and it is growing up it wants to exert on its peripheries and of course we know geopolitically that in Asia if there is a rival of course internationally it is USA initiative there is some country which has not got into the Chinese bandwagon it is India uh like uh when you say we have not got into the Chinese bandwagon right next uh on the Western Front this uh this Pakistan which has seated them land lot of areas in northern areas and now they are connected uh over uh uh through the land Waterway they've built up CPAC also yeah so and I guess if I remember correctly a lot of activity was happening in this", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-46", "text": "correctly a lot of activity was happening in this area also when you were the dgmo what actually were the doing sir at that time what has happened is you know the cpec which is a land axis which China would now have through Tibet and through Pakistan other than that it is something like it is the new colonization of Pakistan vagina as I see it Pakistan has is giving away its sovereignty for money is the Pakistan Army basically yes because the richest people there are from the Pakistan Army that everybody talks about to what extent have they sold their country to the Chinese you can see and you can make out at all properties along the CPAC who has been the people who have involved in the contracts and allowing a Sovereign Nation allowing your land to be given to another Nation it is what can be more now the pakistanis don't have any right on the roads built by the Chinese the uh most of it is they have conceded much more than what a Sovereign Nation would so", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-47", "text": "much more than what a Sovereign Nation would so pakistanis can't even open a Dhaba alongside yes Dhaba entire shops taken okay okay so we were talking when you were talking about Kashmir you spoke about uh taking back the narrative you know so there is this whole thing about a narrative being built and has been built not just new thing when it comes to two front War when it comes to China now that taking back the narrative that you know this that we lose the narrative at times that you know when it comes like for example if you remember during the Stone pelting episodes you know that then that narrative was taken over now comes the China narrative so this whole thing internationally also nobody gives us credit that we stood our ground against a nation which is like several times the size of India and we're the only ones who have stood up against the bully tactics of China no other country in Asia has stood up the way we have but that is not not even", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-48", "text": "the way we have but that is not not even our own media gives us credit or gives the nation uh credit for standing up so there's this political narrative also then there's an international narrative also so how important is it for the Army at times these narratives you know as far as China goes uh it is very important that we as a nation and I think the government at least we have to know that it is a rival which is growing hmm and of course in diplomacy all roads are the best you have to cooperate you have to talk you have to collaborate as a military man I would say it should be done from a position of strength we have to it is very important we as India we have to com continue building a past strength because it is strength by making the infrastructure by making better weaponization that China knows that if it does any action against India the cost would be very high the best way to prevent a war with the strong rival is put a cost on", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-49", "text": "war with the strong rival is put a cost on him and the cost can only be put if we are strong of course for everything to happen the most important thing is that as the economy grows there will be more money for a security right so you also spoke about 2016 where you met with the Chinese delegation and you got this sense it's not just conversations I'm sure your experience over the years you could you could make out the nuances when you meet uh you know your the counterparts so you get this now what once you go back uh what happens do you tell the political leadership does the uh do the diplomats does the Ambassador do you brief them also that you get this sense how does the back room talks happen then so uh I should share with you and of course I remember ajith had done a story on that those 74 days of doklam crisis was the what's the most challenging for me most sleepless nights but professionally most satisfying as I look back", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-50", "text": "but professionally most satisfying as I look back nearly every day the team the back room team was meeting talking and discussing and who all did it have it had it was led by the NSA it had the foreign secretary now the foreign minister they had the IB Chief it had The Rao Chief uh raw Chief and myself and the JS who was handling China and at times whenever the Ambassador Mr gokhile from China was flying in a number of times to brief us so where does this now this is the deli this was a team meeting in Delhi okay and nearly meeting every second day getting all around 360 degree outputs and also working out what would be a response this is almost a war room yes uh informal one but yes so even though we are not in a state of War we are seeing an aggression we're talking about 2017 right now uh I'm using a present tense because I'm getting getting the sense that this is what was going on then and in between Whenever there was a", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-51", "text": "going on then and in between Whenever there was a requirement the Prime Minister was briefed on this the foreign secretary and the defense minister also kept into the loop nearly on a daily basis right and so they know every step of the way and everybody is on the page same page there's no dissonance because that can cause trouble yes and like I told you all and everyone was the was aware of what was happening what were the responses and actions to be taken and like this doklam was not only resolved at what we did at doklem itself which was our military part of it and our actions even the prime minister's initiative of walking up to Mr Xi Jinping at a meeting on 15th of July that was a SEO meeting oh sorry G20 meeting he walked up to the Chinese Premier Premier and told him that okay this is a time now this is what has happened we need to resolve it and I believe he agreed that's what the newspaper reports is that we", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-52", "text": "that's what the newspaper reports is that we should talk diplomatically what on the ground what happened was we started communicating at the level of the foreign minister and the development there are some who will interpret that as a weakness on the part of uh on the part of a political leadership that we made a move towards an aggressor but I remember you saying that peace is what is most important so for that reason for for the for the larger good or for the larger reason for peace you might have to take make the first move towards an aggressor so please explain to us as to what happened there why is it necessary sometimes it was it was something which was not this meeting was not scheduled this was an initiative which the Prime Minister took seeing the seriousness of the whole issue but what had happened something which we could have turned to a war stopped at a confrontation which got resolved we have to see the bigger picture and this was because the Prime Minister understanding the seriousness", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-53", "text": "this was because the Prime Minister understanding the seriousness of the problem and finding a solution which I think was the best so there are many times political leaderships need to take that decision not to go to war even though your forces are ready for it operation parakram was also that yes right so uh you know mobilization happened but ultimately war is a political decision and no words have led to a solution that is any War we have fought so many wars with Pakistan and we are ready to fight with China if required they will it would be to protect the boundaries of our nation and not to get anything else [Music] confrontation was there uh it went on for 74 days I remember Jal rawat and the people in nscs talking uh like praising you uh for your resolve during the crisis was there at any point of time any possibility or any market like young say and galwan uh where you felt that okay you know you remind me is that when those situation all along the LEC was very", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-54", "text": "that when those situation all along the LEC was very sensitive and of course and Sikkim doklam was happening and it was 15th August and we had gone for the prime minister's speech and his Red Fort that I get a message that there's some problem in ladakh so I check up initially the inputs do not come immediately but it came was that there had been as you say Market there had been a confrontation between our troops and the Chinese on finger four finger four and it had become really violent and if you see the social media photographs I have I have that videos we had injured a Chinese Soldier which very maturely one of our men ensured that he does not it does not become too serious and you had seen it the violence had become slightly more well such incidents are the most dangerous where tactical Commander's actions can lead to war it was a serious situation we handled it and we both sides could handle it because we had some rules of the game we pulled", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-55", "text": "because we had some rules of the game we pulled back from there and it did not affect the serious point that was local I think we should now move on to the other hat that General survey has done the new hat the new hat that you wear so let's move to this you know you're the director general of the Indian space Association um so now it's it's built as the next big thing and there are already 45 or so space startups so tell us what does the future look like uh okay I would I would start with this how it happened uh you uh space has always been a strategic sector world over it has been the domain of governments be It in America beat in India and India it was led by ISRO who has done a fantastic job they have kept us amongst very few space-faring nations of the world that's it in America the Open Sky policy came around in late 90s just and what is the outcome of that was people like Elon Musk Virgin Galactic Jeff Bezos were", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-56", "text": "like Elon Musk Virgin Galactic Jeff Bezos were private players started getting into the space domain and when that has happened that has in India also the government realized that we also should have an opportunity for our private place because from the Strategic sector today's space has moved that it has become a commercial Enterprise like I would give you an example early morning today when you would have woke up and if you used Google you have used space when you check the weather you have used space when you transferred some money or collected some money from an ATM you have your space all civilian users and many more the farmer today when he decides to plant trees or whatever his crops he looks at what is it when is the rains coming what is the right time and even if it's if if his crop fails and he has to make a claim the banks check it through Satellite photographs so it has now become a very very important part of our civilian life and hence it was very important that India also", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-57", "text": "life and hence it was very important that India also apart from ISRO which has been doing a fabulous job private players should come in unfortunately for us firstly isros suppliers and vendors have got good knowledge of technology and that is lnt that is walchang industries that is gothridge that is HL and these are the four or five major ones and a new thing after the Prime Minister made a decision and even before that 2020 this decision was taken that we will allow space to be privatized in India startups have started coming in and today the number we have is of 100 plus and the first startups who started in around 2018 last year fired the first rocket two of them have launched satellites created in the private domain and many more will do it now in fact one of our startups called pixel is going to make a consolation of satellites which will look at the whole world from the low earth orbit and do remote sensing by hyperspectral which is a very high in technology in the world it", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-58", "text": "is a very high in technology in the world it is rare and by the end of this year or next year they will have a constellation where they will provide information for handling disaster management or for monitoring forest fires or monitoring petroleum pipelines and it is being done by young men averages 28 to 30. so many generations of Indians I would say uh you know we've grown up looking at the space wars between the between America and the former Soviet Union today there is the space wars or competition between America and China where does India figure in this like I said we are amongst the very few space-faring nations of the world and we have the technology and know-how of the best and why I'm saying of the best is we have been able to send something to the mangalyan and the chandrayaan and very soon human gaganyan which is a human beings going up to the space well also knots right we have nots there so we we have the technological capability and we are there", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-59", "text": "we we have the technological capability and we are there yes in the last few years China has been very aggressively going into space they had very large number of launches 50 or more last year compared to a very few three to four buyers but that does not mean we do not have capability now there is one thing called space as far as military goes it is one of the we say the new two domains apart from Land Air and sea is cyber in space but here I would say space is not for space wars that may take a little longer but space helps the present land sea and air to operate it is for communication it is for ISR that is knowing where the enemy is today with what you have in the space no place in the world is hidden they are they the Precision of 10 centimeters they can read a plate of anywhere the whole area the whole border everything can be seen from space so the space has become a major enhancer of the capability of any military force and so since", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-60", "text": "of the capability of any military force and so since you you are heading the organization Association you are promoting startups now you are a military man basically but in the space Association do you are you encouraging Indian startups to develop something where we can have a a system where these from space we can see if there is an infiltrator moving towards uh terrorists moving towards the loc and alert the ground troops to eliminate him then yeah that that would be a dream of any company Commander NCO or any military commander it will happen one day very soon is there work going on now uh yeah in this I will just like to tell you is the ministry of Defense took a great initiative they would never talk to private players but they have discussed with my industry members my startups and with us and sat down to lay down the challenges for what they expect from private players exactly like you were saying what all is required in space for the militaries the three militaries Army Navy and Air", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-61", "text": "militaries the three militaries Army Navy and Air Force and this was made into what is called idex K defense challenges so and 75 challenges have been now put into the open domain this is uh to me it has been personally a great achievement that is the militaries which never talk to private players about space have now interacted with private players in India and put something across to them what are the aspirations for what do they want enhancement for and um one of the things in that would be that we would be able to see an infiltrator coming across and so like now you are dealing a lot with the private companies now I remember about a few years back private was a very bad word in the military correct people would say suspicious now you're talking about a lot of successes from private sector this is happening in defense also yeah so firstly this government itself has changed the environment from the mindset which I would say the Buffer's mindset or what happened in those times it is", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-62", "text": "mindset or what happened in those times it is a different world and there's been a very uh creative thing done by defense Ministry called idex where they throw challenges to Young uh young innovators young startups on something which needs to be created in India they finance it partially and they let them go from the stage of an idea to a product being made so it's a it's a different world it's I have seen this world changing from my ability experience where I would not talk to any industry man when I was in uniform not officially at least do what is happening now right and it is a positive change because they also have to be partners in our security right so you spoke about Mission gaganyan can you tell us a little bit about where you know Indian astronauts going into space when is that going to happen we are not you know uh yeah uh previously the target was about 2023-24 they have reviewed the targets and slightly it will take a little more time because very rightly like", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-63", "text": "will take a little more time because very rightly like the Israel Chief says human life is very important and they have to do multiple tests to ensure that they when they ultimately send a man to space it is totally safe right but what is already going on is the training of the astronauts or the worm notes as you say the equipment on which it will go and this year there will be tests on what they call checking it for disaster something happens if it has to be launched and how all the equipment has been working and all there are multiple tests they have to do when they will reach the level when they will put actually put a human being and send them across but it will happen I mean My Generation sir we were in school when scorn leader Sharma went and you know there was there's always a hope that in my lifetime at least I want to see a view I'm not oh yes not in your lifetime so it's in a few years all right okay now tell us about the", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-64", "text": "few years all right okay now tell us about the chandrayaan 3 at what stage are we sir because there was this Collective sense of dismay you know when that uh Vikram Lander of chandrayaan 2 it crashed so where are we right now on that uh I think it's uh the new one which they are making for children three is a more modern and much more uh it will be uh far better one made and if you see Vikram also we saw that okay did not land at all but what had been achieved till where it was sent was a great thing it just happened uh in space one small error cost the whole mission and that is what happened in that case that in the final Landing there was something which did not work but that is why maybe it is taking a little more time but this will also again happen very soon I would not be the one who would like to put a timeline on this on any of the missions because the Israel chairman does he keeps", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-65", "text": "the missions because the Israel chairman does he keeps keeps making a statement and like in science and especially rocket science which is Ultimate we have to leave the timelines to our scientists right and and Sir talking about all these programs now when we sent the mission to Mars uh that was in terms of cost it was very low if you compare it with the Americans how are we how are our costs compared to what the Chinese are doing uh in terms of satellites and creating these constellations no as far as China goes we are not aware of what is their cost because they have not commercially been talking of it okay we only get a sense of what America or many other nations do but if you compare it with all others in the world the ISRO program itself and even the cost of launch cost of satellite made by ISRO and now future in the future by a private sector would be very competitive cost wise it would be competitive enough that people from all over the world will use our launch vehicles", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-66", "text": "from all over the world will use our launch vehicles or get satellites manufactured in India already uh some countries have used oh yes they have been that is they've been using the right of our pslvs and gslvs the latest has been 36 satellites of one web which were launched by the gslv in October okay so that has been happening but more of it will happen than when the private sector uh launch Vehicles will go up in the space how uh like how would they be in terms of cost comparison with the ISRO ones now firstly what I would like to tell you is we are quite cheap in comparison to others but ever since Elon Musk has come into the Fray and the reusable rocket he has made cost of launch one-fifth of what it was before okay that is a very tall order to compete with because it requires the technology of a reusable rocket but I am very confident that will also be made in India till you spoke about how um you know this the the achievements", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-67", "text": "about how um you know this the the achievements that we have done in space research and all how it's benefiting from farmer uh to the defense and all so can you explain a little more about how this digital divide that everybody talks about in India how that can be surmounted uh through space in fact that is one of the things my Association has always been propounding and I've been loving on it with the government uh you know India the biggest challenge is that half of India maybe 47 percent Plus which is in the rural areas or areas like ladakh or Endermans or many other unconnected areas because what has happened is mobiles have come all over the world country but fibration has not reached the last man Northeast arunachal Pradesh ladakh now space will overcome that okay because technologically it is far easier to do it uh satellite today on a low consolation is something like a tower in the sky we call it fiber in space and that will ensure it will connect the man in the village", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-68", "text": "will ensure it will connect the man in the village has also provide him broadband these low earth Leo constellations which are being created by one web which are being created by starlink claim and I'm very sure will provide Broadband connectivity to the furthest Corner equal speeds comparable speeds to what terrestrial communication right and what happens the outcome of that is the whole economy of the rural area will change yes because they will be able to do fintech they will be able to do education they will be able to use it for health tourism too and also Enterprises will go there factories will go there yes because iot's can also be used because I've seen very often you know uh there are these people make this Instagram reels and things which they make that beautiful Village uh that you know bed and breakfast in some area and then the they say but we can we can't make reels we can't put it we can't promote tourism in these areas even if it's ecological tourism friendly tourism even", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-69", "text": "even if it's ecological tourism friendly tourism even that can't happen and you know when tourists reach a place the economy improves so connectivity is extremely important absolutely right so that broad band connected broadband connected will be achieved far faster with satellite communication I feel this restraint a lot in ladakh and near the pangong where you can click thousands of pictures but they will know there is no connectivity at all and most of the tourists like I go there for coverage but most of the tourists who come there they feel this then there are Villages near chuchul and all these areas are natural you're right but in from a security point of view sir is it okay because there is also this thing that once you open up and you give everybody connectivity out there uh the enemy can also use that the fact is you may deny it to your people because of the security but today satellites and especially like the low earth observation satellites are international you cannot tell Elon Musk not to provide", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-70", "text": "international you cannot tell Elon Musk not to provide it to Pakistan correct or maybe China also because he's a commercial Enterprise so it is something you deny to your people on the region of security is you are you will be left behind in the race you have to find other methods to ensure that security is taken care of Agents of this one thing that I want to pick up this is uh David devdas is a book on the story on Kashmir he writes the Saving Grace was that the officers in charge in 2018 were far more sensitive and nuanced than those who had fought a proxy war in the late 1990s intelligent and responsive officers like the co-commander Anil Bhatt and the commander-in-chief of the northern command understood the limitations of kinetic operations in home Arenas explain on this how is it different from the 90s and now uh well the times were different and the requirements were different okay because in 1990 when the upstairs took place it was the situation was that a large part of the", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-71", "text": "was the situation was that a large part of the valley was not under the control of the security forces firstly we were very low numbers RR had not been created we were focused on the line of control but internally we just hardly had a brigade or a little more and those challenging times where armies of terrorists were being trained in villages in Pockets which were aware and far of reach it was something like it was an they were they were believing and the whole people of Kashmir were believing that they would have taken Kashmir in a few days we almost lost Kashmir in 90s 90s so at that time maybe kinetic operations were much more important neutralization of a larger number of terrorists was important and maybe the collateral damages were also larger and we as an army also were dealing with a very challenging situation at that time but as things have improved and when I went there I looked at the cycle of violence from 1990 to when I took over in 2018.", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-72", "text": "from 1990 to when I took over in 2018. I saw our successes and our failures but you were there before 2018 also as a younger officer so as a younger of every time my every Tour of Duty is different it was different right you had to shift across and I'll give I'll give you the best example is on Eid uh my some of my predecessors started it Local Company commanders would call local people and serve Biryani and all to the people as a Goodwill gesture now this was done all across the valley it was being done previously I said yes why not and it establishes the writ of the company Commander his contact with the people now this was happening all over on that day I got a report at one place that there was uh when we are people who are Distributing food there was violence a crowd came in there was Stone pelting and the people my people who had gone to distribute the Biryani at the Masjid were had to really withdraw using", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-73", "text": "at the Masjid were had to really withdraw using firing weapons in the air now many of my commanders said why should we feed them when this is the response hmm I also reviewed it but I said no it will continue why because we did it at 2000 places it is only one place we got that response at the rest of the 1900 people people were very warm and they took it so so to again differentiate between the people and the separatists is very important right and that that was my focus in Kashmir I listed out every jamadi I listed out every hurry up member to differentiate him who had Stakes with Pakistan who had stakes in the violence who was even selling admissions in Pakistan and Pakistan for students from Kashmir this is what the Korea Chief used to do collect money for that somebody would pay him 10 lakhs 20 lakhs he would keep half the money this was the money to be used for Terrace or for him and in the 90s the horiats were just about starting", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-74", "text": "in the 90s the horiats were just about starting out and they were like kings after that in your earlier 10 years you would have seen that so you've seen the difference of when Chief died nobody even there was nothing otherwise five years back if he had died because he was an old man and he could have died any time they were fears that there would be violence and Kashmir would want we have been able to create a situation where he died like any old man go away you were there you had your very casually saying 274 terrorists died in one year there were a lot of big targets big terrorists or so-called senior commanders were killed and you had a list top 10 I guess that started top 10 terrorists to be eliminated how frequently did that list you had to like you could take off uh that in sub challenge types when you make a list it puts a pressure on the other guy that he he otherwise also knows and like the average age of a terrorist we", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-75", "text": "and like the average age of a terrorist we have reduced it the HM leader did not previously would survive for five to ten years by the time my tenure was getting end it was ending it was nine months to earlier a local terrorist who took a palms and a young boy his survival rate was six months three months all of this has the outcome has been lesser people joining there a situation uh Mohammed azer the Jesh leader in the area of thrall where there is send his nephews the first nephew came he was supposedly a great leader who was a sniper fighter and they said he'll create thrall again into what it was 15 years back he went back to Allah or to his uncle in 15 days the next nephew was sent we send him back send them up in 10 days and the third one was in three days so that was the kind of intelligence Network so he had three of Masood others they claimed that they were nephews I don't know if he has so", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-76", "text": "were nephews I don't know if he has so many brothers and Sons but yes definitely out of the three two we knew who were his uh his nephews is that communicated back to them yeah we do that you do that right that kind of conversation is necessary yes it is it doesn't have to be on a on a phone call or something but it gets communicated right are the bodies send back are they what happens to them no uh it is a rule we follow in Kashmir uh All Foreign terrorists will be buried in a place which we have identified unmarked yes but it is a place we've identified it from anywhere there will be and also the locals are I guess told that or the message has gone that there's no incentivizing sending their sons so yes and that was itself a major effort and thanks to the our security agencies also who helped us in it we were able to map these people who were organizing it they was an organization working from horit working from other", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-77", "text": "they was an organization working from horit working from other separatists who would go when a terrorist would die to make it into a big affair making the mother fire a weapon getting the crowds collected from all the villages around having all those the total drama which used to come of any terrorist tank and showing 10 000 people there and all was done by an organization which organized it we picked them up so it was an organic those visuals that no they were all done up there were social media groups who would say reach there you have to reach there people had to report that they've reached there so if I'm not even involved in in any way in terrorism if I did not go there there would be a blowback to me so we identified these ring leaders these perpetuators and of course many of them are behind bars right so you spoke about uh social media and how it uh it helps create a narrative for the militants and then you used the the forces use that same social", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-78", "text": "then you used the the forces use that same social media to break that narrative could you give me a little bit uh you know this is this is one of the biggest challenges is the echo Chambers which get created in the social groups what happens is many of these social media groups of these young boys where they believe everything being done by India the Indian government is against them the story which would be told to them and would be exaggerated would be Indian now then there is a social media narrative which we put across everywhere I'm not I I realized that many of them are not seeing what I am putting across I have to get into their groups I have to get into their minds and for that we we use resources that people were there inside to put in a story and that has its impact right but yes it it required creating teams taking local help because they would understand the local mind much more uh but yes a very important thing from this social media and was we also understood", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-79", "text": "thing from this social media and was we also understood what was the vitriol and where was it what was the cause of it and many a times the cause was wrong it was based on a lie so the best thing was hinge your your your campaign on puts on facts right and that helped okay thank you sir thank you very much for giving us your time and shedding light on the various uh aspects in the doklam region as well as in Jammu Kashmir and space so thank you for your time on behalf of Ajit and me so I would just say every Soldier has a dream I have a to do the best in the armed forces for me it has thanks to the Army it has been a dream plan I could do everything possible which any Soldier would aspire to and my prayer to God is next life also I should start the same way and become a soldier what a lovely thing to say Jain sir thank you thank you for watching or listening into this podcast do", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f3bd819e003f-80", "text": "you for watching or listening into this podcast do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste thank you [Music]", "source": "E-dRDNY5e_0"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-0", "text": "what can you do when the public is accepting this content you are not able to accuse me of plagiarism which is your standard go to Trope because I'm an IP lawyer by practice come after me and I'll rip you apart on content I'm saying I am not claiming uh expertise here I am standing on the shoulders of giants I am doing what any scientific publication would do which is Citation citation citation citation 900 footnotes and notes deal with it the existence of Hinduism in the current day is predicated on hindutra being kept alive if Hinduism were living in peace time hindutva will sleep but if that's not the case hindutva has to stand up it is the shatra aspect of Hinduism the speed with which the community reacted to the pathan controversy is not the speed with which it reacts on freedom of temples from the state we read the history of wahhabism as if it's in a separate Silo when it comes to the Middle East but we don't wish", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-1", "text": "it comes to the Middle East but we don't wish to talk about what happened parallel in Bharat all the wahhabis where sufis so it's very difficult for me to buy this Bollywood presented invention that when you think of Sufi think of these dervishes with the long hats the long ropes just swirling around constantly in ecstasy every time an Indian cricketer celebrates a Hindu festival just go through the comments and the hate meal that he receives I don't blame the Muslim Community leaders or the founders of Pakistan for what they did because they had they did what according to them was divinely ordained I blame the Hindus for not doing enough and for not standing by their culture we are the ones buried under these degrees of coloniality where we find it so difficult to unabashedly represent our own positions stand by our own culture that's the problem this pacifism is the consequence of the moderate Spirit introduced into Indian public discourse by the creation of this entity called", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-2", "text": "Indian public discourse by the creation of this entity called the Congress Namaste welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash many of you have written in to request us to get some domain Specialists to our Delhi Studios for the podcast we do try our best to accommodate as many requests as possible I'm not really a fan of Zoom interviews it reminds me of the covet era and hence all our guests are those who come to our Delhi Studios today I speak with Jay Sai Deepak engineer turned litigator turned author his two books India that is Bharat coloniality civilization Constitution and India Bharat and Pakistan the Constitutional journey of a sandwich civilization are two voluminous well-researched books on the Indian civilization his views are hugely popular among a cross-section of the Indian population which believes that the way Indians have read and perceived history of its own civilization is through the prism of their colonial Masters that Indians constantly seek validation on the other hand some", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-3", "text": "Indians constantly seek validation on the other hand some historians feel that Sai Deepak and some other historians are whitewashing history through an unnecessary debate of native versus Colonial prism uh thank you so much for coming to our Studios uh I before this uh just for our viewers before the uh podcast begins I just want to tell you that off camera I asked him I said how should I address you because you know I've seen some of your videos and some call you Jay Sai some call you Sai some call you say the book so I said okay how do I refer to you so then you've been kind enough that I can take your first name and refer to you as Psy so you know I I wanted to have you long back on the podcast because almost every podcast that I have done 20 25 of them in the comment section it's always ma'am can you please have Jason mom can you please have Js hi Deepak I said look I'm gonna have him but only after I've", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-4", "text": "look I'm gonna have him but only after I've read your book because I'm a little bit finicky about such things that I need to read the book and get to know uh you know what your point of view is uh and you make very compelling arguments if I may say uh it's very hard to completely disagree with you because you you speak uh you and your your theory your your arguments are very sound uh if I may say so let's so let's begin with this book especially uh India Bharat and Pakistan so um you know while reading this um as you know I had Vikram also Vikram sampath here there's this whole host of books which have come out by Indique historians um some say that it's it's just too much too soon do you think that's the case so first of all thank you for having me over uh I'm happy that someone's at least asked me how do you wish to be addressed and they've got my name right so thank you so much okay um I think", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-5", "text": "right so thank you so much okay um I think your podcast with Vikram was fabulous uh Vikram of course is brilliant at his subject and I would say he's certainly uh he fits the definition of a true blue Indie custodian and he's taking forward the legacy of people like Dr Meenakshi Jain and others in a very brilliant way and I think people like Vikram and people of this generation fortunately we have the social media positional Advantage which the previous generation did not have and since they were Gatekeepers of scholarship around that particular generation uh they weren't the others weren't able to break through that that let's say that iron fought fortunately I think that Bastion has now been broken into now or to respond to your question I think uh the pace at which narratives are being set up uh citing I would say to started history ever since what I would call the tectonic year 2019 with multiple developments back to back August 5th then you had the ca then you had", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-6", "text": "August 5th then you had the ca then you had the IOD attachment then you had the status quadrant submiller case and whatnot so much going on that uh the central issue in one way or the other was always about the identity of this country it's fundamental parichay and therefore I think it was imperative for these Works to come out for quick succession putting out multiple perspectives allow me to say this without an iota of false modesty I'm certainly nowhere in the same league as Mr Sanjeev sanyal or Vikram sampath or any of these people because they're brilliant at their own subjects for instance Mr sanyal who's just come out with this brilliant book on revolutionaries of Bharat who whose greater economics and history I am approaching this more from the perspective of a practicing Advocate trying to understand the underlying mentality in my own profession and our approach to issues such as secularism constitutional morality so on and so forth so I genuinely believe that these discussions", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-7", "text": "forth so I genuinely believe that these discussions are timely and very very relevant I hope there are more voices that come out sooner because I think after a point people might get jaded with the same set of voices and the same set of faces they'll say okay we have heard his position what does he have to contribute right so that shouldn't happen so the fatigue with respect to a particular phase or a set of phases mustn't translate to fatigue with respect to the content of the perspective so we need more voices so I hope that the next few years at least three or four years we see more and more people coming to the fore who are able to take some of the seeds or Easter eggs that we have shown in each of these books Take It Forward dig deeper and then come out with their own views on it so I'd say no this is certainly not too soon or too much too soon let's say this is the right amount and perhaps we may even need more okay uh", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-8", "text": "amount and perhaps we may even need more okay uh I'm going to quote I'm going to read out some extracts uh during the course of this podcast um stuff that I found interesting and viewers uh you know you must buy this book uh there'll be many things that that you might find more interesting than I did but I'm gonna take out some you know you you say uh sorry that history and I quote history tends to reward those with long Collective memory and you write in this book uh I'm going to go to this bharatiya mind which you talk about uh it's on page nine for those of you who want to see it um you say this that in the absence of this big picture the bharatiya mind which is currently buried deep under three layers of coloniality European Middle Eastern and nehruvian Marxist post Colonial will continue to consume popular comforting and infantile fictions I want you to elaborate on this infantile fiction uh one such fiction which you mentioned uh is the existence of", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-9", "text": "such fiction which you mentioned uh is the existence of the Ganga jamuni the much touted composite culture composite cultural creature that is supposed that is the supposed product of a syncretic relationship between Hinduism and Islam creating the so-called unique Indian Islam now generations of Indians have grown up on this you know listening to this that how lucky we are as Indians to have this now you come with this very uncomfortable truth which tries to shatter I don't know whether it has shattered it or not this fiction which you call so please explain to me what this is about so during the course of my research for this book I went through a huge learning curve my preconceived notions about the so-called independent movement around that particular period its leaders everything changed uh the first thing that I realized is that this composite creature called the ganga jamnita is a relatively new construct in our public discourse and which can at best be traced to the period between 1916 and 1923 and not before nor after because you", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-10", "text": "and 1923 and not before nor after because you see until 1916 this much was very clear that while the Congress of that particular period wanted to project itself as the big tent of all sorts of ideas as long as it was uh let's say seeking some kind of a home rule or autonomous governance for Indians staying within the realm of let's say the color the Empire the colonial Empire so to speak the Muslim identity was crystal clear I'd say largely clear that I don't think the train can meet and one of the foremost persons to make this point uh was saying because most people assume that it is the creation of the Congress which led to his own views on the ruination theory but the fact of the matter is those views preceded the creation of the Congress by at least 50 years thanks to his own education in certain seminaries I've mentioned all those facts second 1924 also turned out to be one of those years which translated into severe introspection on the part of several Indian leaders", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-11", "text": "severe introspection on the part of several Indian leaders because they realize that in the process of supporting the khilafat movement and the non-cooperation effectively was meant to further the cause of Khalifa that was not meant for Indian independence that much is very clear nobody can make that statement whatsoever because I've quoted Congress proceedings have quoted Muslim League crusadings this is a myth that needs to be busted and I think I've done that when you see that two things happened one set of leaders from within the Congress effectively realized that they had created a dragon which is going to be difficult to reign in and this Dragon always or rather they hadn't created a dragon they had revived a dragon what is this drug this is the dragon that believes the donation Theory oh okay this is the dragon that led to the creation of Pakistan which was always waiting for an opportunity to present itself to reassert itself so that the person can be let's say resuscitated so to speak in", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-12", "text": "be let's say resuscitated so to speak in Bharat and the khilafat movement coupled with the cooperation of the Congress under Gandhi or even before that by tilak and others had given them the opportunity from 24 to 46. you're looking at the movement towards the creation of Pakistan and the crystallization of the idea of Pakistan and the reality of Pakistan I would only ask what gangasib that's one because by 1946 the elections make it abundantly clear that the majority of the Muslim population had voted for the creation of Pakistan and therefore everybody who chose to stay back stayed back for reasons of pragmatism and practicality but not for patriotism is a position to have already taken because you've already cast your ballot at let's say you vote at the ballot clearly with respect to particular idea and its ratification so can there be a clearer statement of intent and position I don't think so that's one now I would then say that post Independence the deification of this", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-13", "text": "then say that post Independence the deification of this particular composite creature must be laid at the doors of the Distortion of History helmed under under jawah nehru and the Marxist nehruvian quarter of historians that he puts together which actively sideline people like RC majumdar and others and then also to this particular cabal I would call the ipta which had a lot of marxist Muslims I think Mr Cafe asmi was also part of this and all these people are part of it and then I think Bollywood starts playing a huge huge role in creating this so we are told that Mohammad Rafi sang bhajans and then we are told that uh set music for some of these bhajans and that they did know of course they did of course they did I'd say I'm not going to let a Bhajan effectively come in the way of my larger picture of what happened in history that is something I am not going to buy that so if I may interrupt uh you said it's uh", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-14", "text": "so if I may interrupt uh you said it's uh it's in the 20th century right right that this and there's no there's no reference earlier maybe not the term right but tell me the sentiment didn't agree suppose it didn't exist suppose we were to just look back at say Akbar and Dinah you you've written about that in your book gone into great depths about that but I'm just asking you because most people who've grown up think that okay there was this the syncretic culture which was there especially in the ganga area right the problem is whenever we choose to examine or unpack these issues I think somewhere the uh the Examination for causality goes for a toss so let me do a typical analysis here in terms of what is the cause and what is the effect this much is clear that there have been multiple waves of islamization of the converted Hindu Muslim population from the Hindu population so until that particular process of islamization is complete the converted Muslim who was previously a", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-15", "text": "is complete the converted Muslim who was previously a Hindu continues to hold on to his cultural roots and religious roots in one way or the other because he's not able to let go of the religion of his ancestors now this is sought to be presented as the accommodative facet or aspect of Islam which is not the case because you have to go a few years forward and then you realize the next wave of islamization removes even those vestiges and that is what we see as wahhabisation I'm sorry it's not wahhabisation it's the complete islamization of the convert because we don't understand wahhabism the way it is supposed to be we see it as some kind of an extreme tangent of Islam which is not the case it has a significant following in this country it has perhaps a greater following in this country at least since the 19th century than in Arabia we don't wish to talk about it that's a different issue okay so that's one to Dr ambedkar specifically says", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-16", "text": "so that's one to Dr ambedkar specifically says as much in his book Pakistan is the partition of India let me say this for the sake of public record that I have serious and several disagreements of Dr ambedkar but I think on on some of those issues where I think I may end up agreeing with him is his reading of this mindset the Islamic mindset and the origins of donation Theory where he's he doesn't beat around the bush at all so a lot of people who wish to quote him for multiple reasons somehow don't want to quote him for his views on Islam they must read it and there he is very clear that this composite creature is effectively the residual product of incomplete conversion of the Hindu to Islam that is a clear analysis it makes abundant sense clearly lighting of a lamp or breaking of a coconut hasn't come from Islam these are native Traditions which some people are finding it difficult to letting to let go of but with every wave of islamization and", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-17", "text": "go of but with every wave of islamization and further wahhabisation or wahhabilization and hence islamization that wave goes I'll give you an example from my own part of the country in Hyderabad there is a point where perhaps the burkha was common but the hijab wasn't and you would rarely find Muslim men wearing the Abaya that's not the case anymore you find it in the Hyderabad Airport you go to Mangalore you'll find it you'll find it in tamilnad Kerala has been the case for a very long time by the way most people don't know this so therefore I am asking myself the visible symbols have changed is it your case that this is purely an external change or is it not the product of a change in the mindset then what do you make of the hijab controversy that happened recently could this controversy have been expected a few years ago or a few decades ago because that analysis is stuck in some kind of ossified time frame where", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-18", "text": "stuck in some kind of ossified time frame where you're saying this is the golden period where this syncretic creature existed we are unable to see what happened before we are unable to see the existence of this period in the larger context and what happened later you at least extend the time frame and ask yourself the right questions I think the answer should be fairly clear comfortable or not is a different question we just spoke about the two Nation Theory you were just mentioning it most people would think that you know the two Nation Theory students those who are not students of History would think that Jinnah was the one who had the at least he's the one who verbalized it more and made it more acceptable to Indians but he was the one who did the two Nation Theory some who would have read a little more would say uh shashita says it's savarkar so where did it origin where was the origin of the two Nation Theory and where is it now because even now it's being talked about", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-19", "text": "it now because even now it's being talked about so I'll give you four names and four timelines was alive between 1703 and 1762. he passed away a year after the battle of third battle of panipat after abdali left this country after having ravished the place and after having destroyed what I would call the spine of the maratha empire Khan passes away in 1898 September savarkar was born in 1883. Gandhi was born in 1869. Jinnah was born later I would say is perhaps a contemporary of savarkar in that particular sense a junior to Gandhi and way Junior to say that Khan sabarkar was 15 years old when sayadama Khan passed away so you must credit him with a lot of Genius to say that that 15 year old boy created the tunation theory right that's not possible because most people believe that sauerkaran all those people who subscribe to his point of view don't have brains so let's assume that's not the case here right now then you go to", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-20", "text": "not the case here right now then you go to the next station listeners if you are not watching this on video Sai is being sarcastic out here okay yeah so starts speaking of Hindus and Muslims as two races at the very least from his first book of 1858 where he traces the causes of the bhagavat namely the 1857 Rebellion but much before that he is educated in a seminary called madrasa at rahimya which comes from or which is in Delhi which is based out of Delhi that institution is single-handedly responsible for producing at least seven major Islamic movements in this country movement because all the founders are alumnus or alumni of this particular institution or have been taught by the gurus of this particular institution now let's not call them gurus and teachers of that particular Institution and the records clearly show that they were significantly influenced by the teachings of one gentleman who passed away in 1762. so his children and his grandchildren take over this institution", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-21", "text": "so his children and his grandchildren take over this institution and are single-handedly responsible for keeping the tradition alive who clearly said I am perhaps a fourth generation descendant of Arab Invaders I've lived in this country but I am not an Indian in the sense he says I don't belong to this land obviously the word India did not exist then but he says I don't belong to this land he sees himself as an Arab clearly says we cannot mix or intermingle with the local population under any circumstances because for two reasons one I am Arab plus I'm a Muslim so there is an ethno related sense of supremacism that pervades his thought process now we should ask ourselves why is he so important to this entire discussion he is important because from diabanth to every institution of repute that you can name which is of Islamic origin so to speak names him as their intellectual forefather in their own records and books yeah and I've shown it from their own books yeah I'm going", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-22", "text": "shown it from their own books yeah I'm going to quote this I had pointed out I had written it you know I didn't know that you're going to be talking about it but then I had already taken it out he said in this which I was going to come to this about the doctrine of jihad and in this you've even brought sir Hindi and he says that caused of Islam Reformation revivalism establish re-establish Islam in Bharat um in its most pristine form through strict adherence to the Sharia and by purging of it of heresy such as Sufi mysticism attendant unislamic beliefs and practices you have gone into great detail about the influence of the hell we in your book which is very interesting yes go ahead so the hell we comes out with two Central philosophies which continue to influence the history of this country and which influenced the khilafat movement as well as the partition of India so he specifically says that Islam mandates and requires the establishment of a caliphate so", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-23", "text": "and requires the establishment of a caliphate so that there is a centralized unified command a chatra so to speak under which all Muslim rulers can function in this land everywhere he says a caliphate a unified caliphate and it starts with Bharat because this happens to be the biggest possession in their hands okay that's one second he says along with the caliphate which will take care of the worldly Affairs of Islam you need a very strong ulama so there's a very clear division of turf between the ulama and the rulers he makes that and it is the job of the Olimar to set the Islamic house in order if the Islamic King strays so he draws on all of that and this man was the contemporary of Abdul wahab both of them learn the hadees from the same school and from the same set of teachers in hijaz okay so look at how the this the history I mean the history of this particular period is incestuous we read the history of", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-24", "text": "particular period is incestuous we read the history of wahhabism as if it's in a separate Silo when it comes to the Middle East but we don't wish to talk about what happened parallely in Bharat he's the one who translated the Quran into Persian Persian correct so that why did he do that because by then Persian has become the official language of the administration of the under the turko Mongol persianized mughals and therefore he says the the first thing that we must do is as long as it is in Arabic it becomes difficult for the local population to read the language or read the book and they will start they'll be contaminated by the influence of their Hindu ancestors and Hindu neighbors so to prevent that infestation contamination let's say that of that particular pandemic or epidemic as he saw it let us quickly convert this into a language which is more accessible and therefore he was the first one to undertake the translation of Quran to a", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-25", "text": "one to undertake the translation of Quran to a person from Arabic so this happens not just that he is also crystal clear in his head that the only way I can ensure that the new convert remains true to Islam as it was followed by its earliest followers is by ensuring that their entire life is lived in accordance with the Sharia because Sharia reflects the religion in the manner in which it was followed by the earliest followers to Islam this is how they see it and that philosophy is endorsed across the board there's a multiplier effect with multiple institutions mushrooming all over the country if you look at the map on the cover page of the book I've identified those regions which have been either influenced by this thought process or which are epicenters of seminaries which propagated the thought process so when you have delivery already saying this was a product of this what are we talking about here why is our current even relevant to this discussion Jinnah is merely a", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-26", "text": "even relevant to this discussion Jinnah is merely a third or fourth generation torch bearer of the very same thought process but this also shows that delivery is perhaps a strawman argument to make because if someone who is so much trained in the religion and its scripture and has done this for a living whose father compiled what is known as clearly and surely he knows more about Islam than you and I do so I wouldn't say this is merely the contribution of delavi delavi was capturing or encapsulating a political Doctrine based on Islam so ultimately it goes back to the central book The Root book so the one of the founders of Jamia islamia which was founded I think in 1920 the backdrop of the non-cooperation movement after they found aligarh less Muslim Muslim University was found to be less Muslim and more British loyalist and therefore Jamia was established one of the founders wasmani he gave the first quranic justification for the creation of Pakistan on the basis of the division of the world", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-27", "text": "Pakistan on the basis of the division of the world between the kafirs and the movement and you'll find a better exposition of this thought process in uh venkatulipala's book creating the uh a new Madina where he speaks of the period post 1937 until the creation of Pakistan with all this before us I refuse to believe that savarkar or even Jinnah or even say that was remotely responsible for this they were only taking a certain thought process forward that's it did did they were they the ones who or one of them or two of them would even the ones who gave a a kind of a politicalization 100 so which is why I would say so the first person to give it a very concrete political shape was Syed ahmeds or Hindi who existed in the period of Akbar but because Akbar existed and he was a powerful Emperor and the Mughal Empire was perhaps at its peak I would say it was perhaps at its peak under aurangzeb in terms of geographical expanse", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-28", "text": "peak under aurangzeb in terms of geographical expanse and all that he did not find too much of traction and since everything was going hunky-dory for the for political Islam people didn't see the need to indulge him but when the chips are down for political Islam dilemma take up the mantle and therefore from the death of aurangzeb in 1707 is when you start looking at the rise of political Islam under the guidance of ulama so it's like this when people believe that under a particular Islamic King the flag of Islam and the flag of mughals are flying high let's not upset the the Apple cut so to speak and plus Akbar was a very powerful emperor so in the tug of war between the religious Elites and the political Elites when the political Elites are very powerful religious Elites are not going to find too much attraction from the public because they'll say this man is ensured that Islam Reigns Supreme politically in this country so why would you want to go around", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-29", "text": "this country so why would you want to go around troubling him at this point but subsequent rulers end up getting even colorful titles like and so forth right thanks to their lifestyle and everything else that's when the religious Elite say at least now you must listen to us so compared to his father Abdul Rahim who lived in the time of aurangas lived at a time when the Islamic rulers were only Islamic in name and we're happy doing or indulging in all sorts of debauchery that's when he invites abdali to invade this country because marathas and darts have reasserted that position so he writes letters to three different people the nizam of Hyderabad I think the Emir of Afghanistan in herat and then also perhaps I don't know if he wrote to Turkey then he writes to abdali abdali is the one who comes here so this tells me that the two Nation theory is not a product of the 1900s it's not a product of the 1800s it's a product", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-30", "text": "not a product of the 1800s it's a product at the very least of the 1700s going back to I would say the root cause the root cause Okay uh you've talked about the daily influence tell me about the bhabi influence now on Bharat as such we are still talking about Bharat we still not come to post Colonial yeah because most people would think that Barbie influence came to South Asia or something with the Taliban to go back and say that what you are saying is that it was their way back correct so tell me about the influence so the thing is uh wahhabism became a moniker so to speak thanks to its propagation by the British after their ships were Satellite by the wahhabis in hejaz and the Middle East until then they weren't aware of this particular strain of thought now wahab Abdul wahab and shabalilla dalavi since they were taught by the same set of teachers as far as hadees is concerned they go back to the", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-31", "text": "hadees is concerned they go back to the respective realms and take the thought forward one C is the gradual decline of the Ottoman Empire because it's competing with the Russian Empire it's competing with the Habsburg Empire and here the Mughal Empire is gradually falling so the Muslim Community in two different Foci chooses to prop two different Muslim intellectuals who say the only way you can regain your power is by going back to the basics as far as Islam are concerned Islam is concerned and that is what is wahhabism for all practical purposes say we doubt all possible external extraneous influences so there are two specific influences they speak of other three Turkish Roman and Hindi that is why I say that when they are asking for the removal of it that's the next wave of islamization so wahhabism is a process the end goal is complete islamization how is Hindi corrupting that Purity Sufi practices so there are two different aspects one", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-32", "text": "practices so there are two different aspects one so for instance when a when a girl attains menage that is celebrated in in several parts of this country that practice gains a lot more gate and festivity in Indian Islam where it is practiced by practitioners of Indian Islam they said get it out of it marriage should not be celebrated with this kind of form Canada out of this this is the Hindu influence so observe everything with sobriety anything that has color light music get it out because that's the Hindu influence was it were they effective were they successful and until what point of time were they successful in history you'd think so it's like this so This thought process is accepted in several parts and is rejected in several parts yeah so the portions of Indian Islam which reject the rejection of Sufi Islam are called the barailways who say no sorry these are practices which have come over the years we will retain them but you see that's what I say in the book that", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-33", "text": "you see that's what I say in the book that independent of their internal differences on these aspects the one thing they're very very clear about is that there are only two pillars of Islam namely the Quran and the Sharia that's it and the identification of the outside or the out group is fantastic which is ahmadiyas who we suddenly seem to have a lot of sympathy for in the backdrop of the ca we're among the founding communities of Pakistan by the way they say this as much on their own website yeah their leader as well as the leader of Bareilles they got their comeuppance when Pakistan was created true sorry to sound cruel but anyway both of them say in fact I think one of the leaders basically says I may have my disagreements with you guys on several issues but if I were to be asked to offer water to Thirsty Hindu or a Thirsty Dog I would prefer to serve the dog as opposed to the Hindu this is the position so", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-34", "text": "opposed to the Hindu this is the position so this is the position of Hindu in the eyes of all these branches and sects despite their sectarian disputes so I don't care for their internal disagreements on the esoterics and metaphysics of Islam I am not on that that's your internal fight my question is what does this translate to as far as I am concerned and on that there is no difference everyone was very clear that this is the land where the flag of Islam needs to be revived and for greater expansion of Islam in the Indian subcontinent rather the Asian subcontinent the the the Fortress has to be Bharat and since they couldn't get Bharat in its entirety The Fortress that was established for the very same purpose was Pakistan which is why venkata calls it creating a new Madina so that this happens to be the epicenter from which Islam moves forward right you know um we you have gone into great depth about the Bengal the effect on Bengal like the first", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-35", "text": "Bengal the effect on Bengal like the first partition happened in 1905. I'm going a little bit into detail because there are many who live abroad who are you know listening in and they may not have studied Indian history so much in depth um the 1905 first partition then so you know that sowed the seeds and then you saw in 1947 uh you have East Pakistan you have West Pakistan then subsequently 1971 uh it becomes Bangladesh right now I'm going to read one part in your book uh 131 that the that you talked about you know like we when you were talking about the reason I found this very interesting even now when you mention you know about that the Sufi practices and things like that even if today you know a young person going to Dhaka you will see women all wearing sarees Bindi you know it didn't get it somewhere that thing is still there about the cultural practices it's not in conflict with that brand of Islam out there you don't see women in", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-36", "text": "brand of Islam out there you don't see women in salwar kamises you don't see hijab all that much because that whole Bengali tradition the language everything you know you I mean the only country to be born out of a language issue anyway so I'm going to read this out about the divide and Rule policy when you talked you know this thing about in 1903 uh karzan lotkerson understood that demographic religious and political implications of creating a Muslim majority Eastern Bengal and Assam and the originally stated administrative and economic reasons for the partition did not present the complete picture clearly one of kurzen's stated intentions was to nip the nascent Bengali hindu-led national movement in the bud by using Muslims of Eastern Bengal and Assam as a counterweight Curzon was quick to realize its potential political benefits such as breaking the momentum of Indian Nationalism the epicenter which was Bengal uh you know you even talked about AC majumdar's book and you know in which he corroborates", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-37", "text": "book and you know in which he corroborates curzon's employment of the divide and Rule policy and the gradual but unequal unequivocal reciprocation of the Muslims of Eastern Bengal to curzons overtures to woo them right so this is what I was trying to get at when you were talking about link it to this whole Sufi thing divide and Rule it worked at every point of time you're saying right it worked when in the Barbie and the healthy period it worked during colonial period now explain this to me so the first thing that I have tried to show through the book which I hope people have latched on to is all the wahhabis were sufis was a sanat carrying Sufi which means he was ordained as a Sufi into the Sufi order his father was a Sufi Ahmed sir Hindi was a Sufi a lot of people who let people into riots in Bengal were sufis proper riots in effectively this missionary arm of this particular mindset has", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-38", "text": "this missionary arm of this particular mindset has played a huge role both in softening as well as wielding the stick as well as the sword that much is very clear from the documents so it's very difficult for me to buy this Bollywood presented invention that when you think of Sufi think of these dervishes with the long hats the long robes just swirling around constantly in ecstasy sorry history is much more than this people swelling and it's very difficult the bloodbath that they've caused is astounding so all these people who let the bhabi movement wear sufis let's be clear about that that's one second what am I trying to say I am not denying the fact that the British indulged in The Divide and Rule policy my qualification is not divided in the rule policy it's exploit The Divide and Rule yeah exactly what I was trying to get to right is that what you were saying is that this division process had started long ago it has always existed yeah and therefore when", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-39", "text": "ago it has always existed yeah and therefore when the British realized that when there is a particular discard that can be used to their benefit to also prevent or let's say put some kind of a Fetter on claims of a separate nation or a nation order asking asking for home rule what is the principle behind this the British was very comfortable providing autonomy to those communities or those colonies which could lay claim to the to the status of being a single nation and the definition of a nation is not what we understand it today definition of Phoenician is either rebound by a single language or religion or race or whatever it is there has to be something which is homogeneous across the board so therefore they said first of all Hindus and Muslims are not a single nation even within Hindus you are not a single nation that's the extent of their argument it is around that period at radhakuman Mukherjee and everybody starts writing to say why Bharat as a civilization must be seen", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-40", "text": "say why Bharat as a civilization must be seen different from Europe's definition of a Nation so that's in your first book yeah right now when he senses an opportunity in the Muslims of Bengal and Assam who are willing to help him create a separate Muslim majority state or Muslim majority Province as a counterweight now I'm asking myself this common Bindi the common saree the rabindra Sangeet or whatever sangeeth existed before that all of that should have played a role we end up focusing too much on the softer cultural aspect without asking whether this has had the power to prevent a political tide when the chips are down and when when a crucial decision is to be taken have all these mattered I'm saying it they haven't mattered this is peacetime discussion this is the discussion of the affluent and air conditioned atmospheres drinking wine saying oh this is the greatness of the composite culture of this country when it mattered it did not okay did it matter when operation Searchlight", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-41", "text": "it did not okay did it matter when operation Searchlight was going on in 1971 no it did not no right okay let's assume for a moment uh for those who don't know about operation Searchlight and Tikka Khan please Google it and read about it because it is the most horrific incidents uh you know that has happened in South Asia which the world has ignored that genocide that happened then please Google it and read about it because it's something that the Western World completely forgot and Bangladesh was not strong enough to talk about it and uh the rest of the countries in in Asia including India did not talk about it so do Google and read about it sorry Sai so let's go before 1971 if this cultural let's say impact was so strong you shouldn't have had an Eastern Pakistan but you did why do we forget that Bangladesh was indeed East Pakistan that means they decided to go ahead with that particular decision notwithstanding the common linguistic affinities and whatnot they said we are throwing", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-42", "text": "affinities and whatnot they said we are throwing our weight Behind These set of people who subscribe to the tonation theory that's one after 1971 and after the creation of Bangladesh has it seen greater protection for the Hindu minority there in Star contrast the Hindu population of Bangladesh has come down sharply every day you hear instances of rapes forcible conversions atheist bloggers being killed so on and so forth so the Bengali Affinity or the Bengali commonality isn't strong enough to Prevail over the Islamic identity let's be very clear about that their ummahood Reigns Supreme that is established by the partition at 1947 did they say we don't wish to live with Pakistan we don't subscribe to the two Nation Theory we'd like to merge back with Bharat in 1971 that's not the decision that's not the decision post 1971 in fact one of the ambassadors I remember reading this as a school-going kid effectively told this to Bharat do you expect us to be uh grateful to You", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-43", "text": "do you expect us to be uh grateful to You For Eternity for 1971. this was the tone of Bangladesh in late 90s and early 2000s when it was not the Bangladesh of even today which has some kind of an economy to speak of but why do we expect gratitude we don't expect gratitude yeah we are asking for decent treatment of Hindu minorities there we are asking for some kind of restraint on illegal migration we are asking for some kind of restraint on the export of cows from here in an illegal fashion and the cow slaughter that happens at bharat's expense because pashuthan may not matter to you and me but it matters to the farmer we have recently seen about 10 000 cows being repatriated from that particular part and that border is so porous in fact there's a specific paragraph where I say that the infiltration into Assam has to be traced to the partition of Bengal and the antecedents of the tunation Theory start from 19.5", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-44", "text": "of the tunation Theory start from 19.5 at the very least which directly stressable to what is happening in Assam at this point so when we look at Assam so I think in 2019 just before the lockdown or the Fagan of the Year Professor Mustafa and I had a public debate on the NRC now some whose results had just been announced and this debate was organized at nulsar of which he is the vice Chancellor now I basically said you want to look at NRC and Assam independent of the issue of Bangladeshi illegal migration I'm sorry enough literature says that's not possible you need to look at it as a whole maybe 30 of the audience coughed at it so in part I'm responding to that I'm saying here's the literature deal with it so when a country such as Bharat as it exists today is the product of multiple bloody vivisections why do we look at each of these instances in isolation without understanding what are the larger dots to be", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-45", "text": "without understanding what are the larger dots to be connected here perhaps that is the central thesis of the book please learn to connect the dots right connect the docs when when you talk about that you know that Indian Muslims stayed on in uh Pakistan he stayed on in India those who stayed on in India pragmatism was a major reason right many times it was like there was no option correct right to go um I had asaduddin owaisi on the podcast recently and as you know he's very uh vocal about his identity as an Indian and as an Indian Muslim right uh now he said this and I quote it he said the reason I asked him also is because you know there people call him the modern day Jinnah in India it's a it's a very rude way of saying it but then I think General is better okay so they said that so he says that may is so he talks about staying on in India that his parents did his his ancestors did as a matter of choice right", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-46", "text": "his ancestors did as a matter of choice right not as a as a pragmatic move because of financial reason or whatever they were financially well of his family right so tell me about this that why you have a different take on this well the floodgates will open so I hope I will exercise my free speech for the fullest possible absolutely please do right so let's go to the first limb of your question which is on why did I make the statement that they stayed back for reasons of practicality and pragmatism the good part is a lot of these people said this themselves so there's a fantastic interview on YouTube of Maulana madani where he's speaking to a Pakistani journalist and he was asked this very same question why didn't everyone move there what was the reason he said that the uh you're looking at a population which has stayed in this part of the world for several Generations they had their properties here and they had their masjids here and most importantly he alludes", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-47", "text": "their masjids here and most importantly he alludes to something which is very crucial most people don't even talk about it at the time of the discussion of Pakistan even those Muslims who oppose the creation of Pakistan weren't doing so because they wanted to be part of Bharat but because they believed that this entire land belongs to Islam and therefore they said why are you settling for one third of this when the entire thing was supposed to be mughalistan so it's not that we belong to Bharat but the Converses Bharat belongs to us rather Hindustan belongs to us because it had been conquered conquered and that reference is constantly there in every speech of say that he said we have ruled this place for 800 years that's where the Smith comes from from his speeches he says this over and over again so when someone tells me no no they stayed back for patriotic reasons yes but patriotism towards patriotism towards mughalistan that is what they say now", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-48", "text": "towards mughalistan that is what they say now let's go to the next level presents a very I'd say A peculiar picture because his party is the legal successor or at the very least ideological successor of the Party founded by uh this gentleman who fled to Pakistan risby Ali rizvi a lawyer who led the razakars into the genocide of Hindus during operation Polo we should know this as people who come from Hyderabad where we have seen our families and relatives being butchered at the hands of these razakars so they would come with serrated knives you'll find razakar's being mentioned in two different parts of the world Bangladesh and in Hyderabad yeah okay so razakar is what they would do is that they would tie the male members of the family together and set them alight for the rest of the families to watch this was the nature of it the hostage population theory of the critical critical hostage population theory was pressed into service by the nizam where he used the", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-49", "text": "into service by the nizam where he used the Hindu population as the as the bargaining chip with the Indian Union that is exactly what is captured in the conversation between his prime minister and vallabhai Patel he said you know what we'll do here and do it Mr valuable says what do you think we'll be doing here right so therefore I I think it's important for people to just unpack what exactly is Mr owesi talking about what are the antecedents of his party where did they take this discussion forward there is an MIM and then there is an aimim and we are expected to believe there is absolutely no relationship between the two why don't you release the documents or the founding documents of your party and see who's taken charge from whom okay let's take the converse of the patriotism argument did Hindus of Pakistan stay back in Pakistan out of patriotism for Pakistan according to you no knowing fully well what preceded the creation of Pakistan what did they stay back for again", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-50", "text": "creation of Pakistan what did they stay back for again pragmatic and practical reasons which means they did not know how to escape because the wealthy people managed to escape the ones who couldn't they had to stay back now where does the Christian population of Pakistan come from they converted hoping that the International Community would come and save them by the way because they did not have a central Hindu organization to defend them these are the origins of Hindus in Pakistan also did not appeal to the Christians exactly to clean the toilets exactly so that because these conversations I don't think people realize this that the reason Christians stayed back was because they were leaving in droves and there was nobody to clean the toilets because they were not willing to clean the toilets with themselves and that whole famous speech of Jinnah that everybody will be free to practice their religion was because of this right and they never lived within the the living quarters or the living areas they used to live outside and", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-51", "text": "or the living areas they used to live outside and they continue to live outside the city limits now let's connect three dots this is the reality in Pakistan that's the reality of valmikis and Kashmir and that's the realities of sudras and ramashudras in Bangladesh which is to say the people who were left behind in these parts the sensitive parts were the ones who couldn't afford to leave so there is a um but overseas family like the others could afford to leave I'll come to that obesity's family you should whenever you listen to his speeches please or I would say operate in compartments where you pay attention to his Urdu speeches in his jalchas first and then see what he says in his English speeches before in English channels in Aurangabad and in Old parts of Hyderabad and other places every time they start talking they hearken back to the atrocities of operation Polo constantly speak of this as if it's a it's it's a holocaust that's visited the Muslim", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-52", "text": "it's it's a holocaust that's visited the Muslim Community that's how you speak of the accession of the Hyderabad princely State under the nizam to the Indian Union people don't read or let's say watch those speeches I've seen those speeches I know Hyderabad the Urdu as well as any other person so I know exactly what they're talking about so what is being presented to the English audience is the sanitized version now SRI aranshuri wrote a brilliant piece in his Haiti as a journalist around the ramzanubhumi period where he spoke of how temples were destroyed and how history was whitewashed he said I went to the seminaries library in the urban other places the Arabic version openly says we destroyed this Temple this Temple this Temple this Temple here identifies all of that Arabic goes through the first round of distortion where the dawn has come down a bit from Urdu to English it's gone completely and then now we are being told that ghazni", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-53", "text": "and then now we are being told that ghazni came to somnath to liberate the non-brahamas from the brahmins this is apparently apparently he had to come 17 times to liberate people and not for the gold right now when you look at all of them again this is size brand of sarcasm out here when he talks about whitewashing of History yeah that's true uh it you know there are versions now of uh invasions correct one is reading yes Mr Salman Khushi on on one of the Summits ended up saying that the uh uh the Advent of Islam to India is not a story of invasion for the story of migration apparently that's what he said whereas we are being told it has to be treated as the Aryan Invasion Theory and not the Aryan migration Theory anyways now when it comes to Mr obesity when he says this he is abundantly clear in several statements on YouTube he says Deccan that's where it comes from because then his arm was effectively the uh", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-54", "text": "comes from because then his arm was effectively the uh the sword arm of the Mughal in the south the two regions that were dear to aurangzeb where Bengal because he was the weather of that particular Suba and then the Khan which turned out to be the graveyard of the Mughal Empire right because the marathas had come up here the vijayanagar Empire all of these people were here of course vijayanagar has precedes that's a different issue but the point is they speak from a sense of ownership and which is packaged and presented as a sense of patriotism please learn to distinguish both I don't buy this for one bit so he is the same person who rushes to Assam in kokrajhar in a rather some in 2012 because he has to establish kinship with the rohingyas and others or people who are being killed there or who people who are actually killing the others then there are riots in Mumbai where the uh the soldier Memorial is destroyed around the", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-55", "text": "the uh the soldier Memorial is destroyed around the particular period by members of the risby academy or whatever Academy that is our Reza Academy he establishes some kind of sympathy with them he immediately opens up camps for all these people what is he talking about I'd like to understand why is it that Mr oasi always finds it in him to establish Sympathy for the person who's writing I don't see him talking to Tariq Fateh for that matter I think there are serious disagreements even with Mr javidactor but let me see if even Mr obesity can find in himself the ability to find common ground with Mr javidathar that's not going to happen on several issues one is a Marxist Muslim at least that's what he claims the other is I'm a practicing Muslim everything is present at his victimhood so notwithstanding his uh his let's say his gift of Gap to present this as some kind of a sacrifice that they've made that we have not gone to", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-56", "text": "that they've made that we have not gone to Pakistan we have stayed back here and all that his Urdu speeches to his home audience and his home territory is very very different I mean those speeches reflect a very different site and I'd say the true site perhaps see um you were mentioning even Salman Khushi then uh and we were talking about OAC now there are there are many Muslims who say that if we keep thinking about or if we go back to okay what are your Origins if you go back as they say you keep digging digging digging you go too much to the Grassroots you'll only get ants and you'll get mud no right so there has to be some if you keep looking at all Muslims or people who are too poor to leave right or who were uh who were avaricious who thought that oh we can have business opportunity so let us stay back if you ascribe these motives to all those who stayed back then there is no meeting route then the divisions become", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-57", "text": "there is no meeting route then the divisions become more and more dos do you agree with that I think there are some fantastic meeting rounds so let me give examples Mr KK Mohammad who has reconstructed certain temples in Batista and other places in madhya Pradesh was who also says that I don't find any conflict between my origin as a Muslim and my current belief system are in these examples of exciting during his lifetime Mr Abdul Kalam wasn't exactly seen as a celebrated member of his community because he was making weapons for Bharat he was comfortable with the bhagavad-gita played the rudravina or the winner at the very least now these kind of examples don't work because these are the examples where the process of islamization is still not complete but you're still not ready to accept it when it comes to Mohammad Rafi singing bhajans and all that you're saying see you won't see him as a I think when you choose to use Bollywood as an example I'll say anybody you", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-58", "text": "use Bollywood as an example I'll say anybody you pay money there will do anything as long as it's meant for a particular role I don't wish to see a professional performance which is meant for a particular payment or which is done at the expense of a particular consideration as any sign of uh let's say syncretic Behavior why are we looking for that I I want hard examples here why are we looking for hard examples in a make-believe world I'd like that in the real world where it truly matters okay let's do something there's a fantastic discussion or a debate that happens on the earth literus platform in 2019 with Mr owacy Mr subramanya Swami Dr subramanyami and myself and I was supposed to be the moderator there please I saw that on it's on YouTube yeah right I am not referring to any parts which are constantly turned around in WhatsApp I'm not on that at all I think it's done to death when he was asked the question of what is the", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-59", "text": "when he was asked the question of what is the position of the rest of the Indian Muslims with respect to Kashmir and Bharat relationship see how wishy-washy he gets so that means an elected member of the parliament who's been voted to bharat's parliamentary body its legislative body still doesn't wish to commit to the cultural relationship and the civilization relationship between Kashmir and Bharat he says that's a complicated issue I asked him about CA he doesn't want to acknowledge the fact that in Islamic republics Hindus get a rough deal at least in this neighborhood he doesn't want to address that I asked him if a specific legislation or an amendment comes out identifying a particular cause why don't you accept that this cause has a direct relationship with an identity of the country because then he would end up having to admit that Islamic republics give out a rough deal and a short end of the stick to Hindus at the very least in our neighborhood he doesn't want to", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-60", "text": "very least in our neighborhood he doesn't want to accept that that is with respect to Pakistan and Bangladesh he says that I have gone to Pakistan I have spoken out against the terror activities of Pakistan then why don't you acknowledge that it's the Pakistani state which is the Islamic State which is actually meeting out this kind of treatment to Hindus why doesn't he speak out against that he has all the Time in the World to establish kinship with rohingyas he has all the Time in the World to establish country with Muslims across the world including Palestinians but not for Hindus in Pakistan and Bangladesh but that reciprocal sentiment is expected it's not spoken forget ovac or forget Muslim leaders right it's not it's not something that even Hindu leaders agree in India uh pick up 100 we expect Muslim leaders to speak why should they they're saying like Pakistan why not the Hindu leaders then you know what I couldn't have made the argument better I have always said this I don't blame the Muslim", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-61", "text": "have always said this I don't blame the Muslim Community leaders or the founders of Pakistan for what they did because they had they did what according to them was divinely ordained or scripturally ordained I blame the Hindus for not doing enough and for not standing by their culture that is the essence of the first book and the second book that we are the ones buried under these degrees of coloniality where we find it so difficult to unabashedly represent our own positions stand by our own culture that's the problem okay I have a question why is it that the Communist Party always chooses to field leaders who either come from the so-called Savanna community and who are also from the Hindu background why don't we get to see people coming from the depressed classes of the society becoming heads of the Marxist party or even people coming from the Muslim background because it's the weaponization of the Hindu identity through the Marxist out because you get to say the exact argument you presented well it's not", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-62", "text": "say the exact argument you presented well it's not the Muslim saying this it's a person coming from the Hindu background who's making the statement immediately become defenseless that's how the legitimacy of the state of Israel is is undermined by using the American Jewish identity as a weapon against the Israeli Jewish identity because it's not the Muslim who's saying this it's your own guy who's saying this that's it then what you do the wind is taken out from you out of your sales no that's exactly what happens so my point is I find it useless to say that there is a problem with someone else I say the problem lies within and the problem lies within wherein we haven't produced enough committed intransigent hardliners who stick to the position of their culture as much as they are supposed to and each time the Hindu Society manages to produce them they are in the minority and they're isolated that's exactly the fight between the moderates and the extremists in the", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-63", "text": "between the moderates and the extremists in the Congress of that particular period That's the distinction moderates and extreme is true even the uh like when Vikram was talking about that this the historians there was this list so this is what happens now you are bringing up all the ashudos all of you indeed historians do you get that a lot that why are you breaking it all up now no so the reason why uh so whenever someone asks this I say fine then give up the discussion on our Invision Theory right you don't do that because that needs to be kept relevant for personalization of the Hindu community and harvesting of souls that needs to be kept relevant to keep the cast pot boiling right you need to keep doing that that needs to be kept alive to keep the language uh barriers boiling between the North and the South that needs to be kept alive for the Aryan dividend divide because it helps a particular camp in the south so if history is so irrelevant you", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-64", "text": "in the south so if history is so irrelevant you don't bring it up DK constantly brings a bar in Innovation theory in its currently publication the driver cargo which is the cultural arm started by Perrier not Perrier Eva ramaswamy right all these people continue to speak of History when there was a 27 hike in the uh reservation in mbbs seats this I remember when I was at I was ninth or the 10th standard yeah when I was getting into college at that time yeah then placard's book of RN Invasion Theory Now history is not relevant there it's on the streets tell me which part of this country and which discussion of this country is free from discussions on History then I will stop talking about history it's not the the entire purpose is to ask myself where do these problems come from how many of them are Fishers within how many of the how many of them have been created by the outside actor and two are we now seeing a repeat of history is a hundred years cycle back", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-65", "text": "a repeat of history is a hundred years cycle back are we living in the age of khilafa 2.2 is the central question that I'm asking okay that's pretty frightening okay you know you talked about hijab this is going to come up again because we're going to see elections in Karnataka so the whole hijab issue is going to come up but you talked about how hijab was something that was you know you didn't see this when you were kids you didn't see so many women in hijab in Hyderabad in the city of yours or in my uh city of origin which was you know in Karnataka so we didn't see so many but you're seeing more and more so but however uh those who defend uh more girls wearing hijab today uh is they say that it's part of Islam it's something that they are choosing to do that right um You also spoke about you know like we said that many people don't know about wahhabism that it was existing another thing which when", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-66", "text": "wahhabism that it was existing another thing which when reading your book I saw was that the role of jihad in Indian history now many students of History you know who are not students of History would think that Jihad was not prevalent in India at all that this is something that came in when again Afghanistan when that happened that movement happened correct but in your you talked about Jihad in North India I will read out a part and then you explain to me um this is uh in page 26 you say for several years after barailway's death 1831 we've gone into quite an extent it was a practice in Muslim family especially in Northern Bharat to either earmark a portion of their earnings as their contribution towards Jihad or to send their men to participate in the war at least a few months this is not so different from the present day trend of individuals from certain communities being sent to fight for the Isis now you tell me about this now you tell our viewers listeners about", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-67", "text": "me about this now you tell our viewers listeners about how Jihad existed in India it's not a New Concept for Indians so the thing is uh Syed ahmeds are Hindi and shavalula they'll be they create the doctrine the political Doctrine now it needs to be actioned and implemented now that gets actioned and implemented by uh uh this gentleman called Syed Shahid who died at a place which everybody knows now is balakot on 6th of May 1831 and that death is the reason why it becomes the training ground for jihadis that's why let's say you have all these people going there as if it's a shrine I'll tell you why it became a shrine later but this gentleman uh is he's his his Origins are traced to the prophet himself in his genealogy by the seminaries of this country they explained that he is the 36th generation descendant of so and so on so they mentioned all of that this man becomes a student of a descendant of uh sorry and", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-68", "text": "a student of a descendant of uh sorry and he starts a preaching tour you see the man couldn't read or write and members of his community interpret this as a Divine sign because apparently the prophet also couldn't read and write and therefore they said this is uh the the blessing of the Divine himself this is a karamat and so he starts his preaching tours and he effectively puts into action delavi's Vision on the ground so what does he do so his preaching towards go to all the places in uttar Pradesh that you associate with seminaries now okay Gango this place that place I mean the so-called ganga Germany region is his uh let's say his uh experimental ground that entire region then he goes to different parts of the country but the one part which he goes to which translates to establishing a fantastic infrastructure is Patna because Patna was then called azimabad because uh azimabad I think is perhaps the name of a grandson of Shah Jahan or something or maybe some", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-69", "text": "grandson of Shah Jahan or something or maybe some descendant of organization but that's what it was called before previously used to have the azimabad express so people think so people think so he goes to Patna and then there is a a family of four or five brothers who are so enamored by his teachings who now decide that we will commit ourselves through his teachings now his teachings are not just to uh let's say Islam is the Hindu or rather the Indian Muslim more but he wants to collect an army to fight the Sikh Empire in Punjab okay because the Sikh Empire has created trouble for the Muslim empires of India as well as to Afghanistan and since the pathan has always been seen as the sword arm of the Indian Muslim and uh says in his speeches if ever we get into trouble the tribes the lushkas from pathan will come and help us that's a statement by the way and they were they they requested for them also they requested for them yeah", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-70", "text": "they requested for them also they requested for them yeah and even uh bareilly requests for their help as well right he asked for it and he gets it so there are two brothers so Indian history has seen two pairs of Brothers both of them go by the name Ali Brothers the second set of Ali brothers are around the khilafat period with whom Mr Gandhi has a fantastic relationship and the first set of Ali brothers are direct Disciples of barailway they established according to me the finest and the most well entranced wahhabi Network across the country in the south in the West in the East and the north across the board for funneling of money for collection of arms for indoctrination of people and for collection of soldiers to be recruited for the fight against the sick Empire first and then the British Empire their movement is single-handedly the reason for the enactment of this Edition law in 1870. it was to fight them that the Sedition law comes into existence and that's what I've", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-71", "text": "Sedition law comes into existence and that's what I've explained in the book the origin of 290 the origin of 295a comes from them not to fight a non-violent peaceful people what threat was the Congress posing to the British nothing they were seen as collaborators of the British they were established by the British so it made no difference but it's to fight them so they connect they collect all the money so bareilly goes to uh goes to what is uh what is known as sorry ghazni he goes to ghazni and he pays his respects to Mahmoud he goes and stays he goes and stays there Pays His respect of the Muslim of ghazni and they are not even connected but he finds a kinship there right this man then starts the Jihad he believes that the only way that we can action this is by bringing back the implementation of the doctrine of jihad which is an essential element of establishment of political Islam so Delhi makes it abundantly clear his intellectual Godfather that an Islamic", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-72", "text": "abundantly clear his intellectual Godfather that an Islamic State cannot function without wielding the sword of jihad it needs that because it may it it creates the way it clears the path so bareilly also carries swords on his person so that he sends a message to his followers that militarization of the Muslim Community is essential all of this happened so Jihad has been around for such a long period now the most modern educated sophisticated exponent of the centrality of jihad foreign the first education minister of this country who was a wahhabi and that I've explained in the book because He follows he was a wahhabi at the outset that the first thing and the second thing is he also is a follower of the other uh uh let's say figure that I mentioned of the 19th century Afghani both these people effectively decided that why are we constantly emphasizing on the pacifist nature of Islam and that's not the case Jihad is a central Doctrine and it's not as if it's an", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-73", "text": "central Doctrine and it's not as if it's an internal fight to the Demons Inside it is a very clear military Doctrine the establishment of an Islamic caliphate requires the centrality of jihad to be revived all of these discussions happen this discussion goes on from the mid 17th century and right until who was presented as a nationalist Muslim to us and I think he is the ancestor of Amir Khan anyways the point is Amir Khan's son is named as Azad I think the surrogates and I think is called Azad so the point is Jihad is misunderstood when we speak of ahabism when we speak of jihad you see what we start doing is it must have started only after the Russian invasion of Afghanistan and then Taliban was created and that spilled over into Kashmir the existence of the of rather the presence of hobbies in the 1800s and kashmiris is documented I have heard very very senior government functionaries at International fora say that Jihad did not exist", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-74", "text": "at International fora say that Jihad did not exist in India and no Indians went as mercenaries or no Indians brought mercenaries into India now what you're saying is that that is that is a farce that it's it's always happened for I would say those are the compulsions of running a secular government I'll leave it at that but if they really want to speak facts on History I'd say please let's not have this discussion one of us is bound to be embarrassed let's leave it at that all I would say is the document so there's a fantastic book uh called partisans of Allah by Asha Jalal yeah you quote extensively in the book in this Jihad in South Asia correct yeah there you will see and I've quoted even Sana Haroon she clearly shows that each of the founders of Taliban where the products of simile is established by the abandis in those parts of the world because you see the urban was attracting heavily people from Afghanistan okay considering", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-75", "text": "attracting heavily people from Afghanistan okay considering that it is possible to make the argument and I would say one of the persons that you must read one of the journalists whose work I follow regularly is yeah he's written extensively on this and he agrees that we think it's a relatively recent thing but it's part of a longer phenomenon so neither Jihad is new to this country nor wahhabism is new to this country so which is why in the introductory portions of the book I've clearly said I am going to make the case here that somehow we seem to be valuing in this comfortable notion that neither Jihad nor wahhabism have any Indian connections but let's bust that myth and make this discussion as uncomfortable as possible so that the secular myths are busted as early as possible yeah very very so okay uh you mentioned balacode you know and uh I'm going to read out a portion of that um you know for those who don't know about balacode", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-76", "text": "you know for those who don't know about balacode it's the same Balor court that PSY talks to talks about which in February 2019 we had the cross voter strikes um and he says in this is where he says that uh history tends to reward those with long Collective memory uh now while mentioning uh balakoti uh you know he talks about Aisha dalal's book which we just discussed uh and this is a quote from there it says that balakot in many ways is the epicenter of jihad in South Asia it's also a point of entry into the history of jihad uh struggle in the way of Allah in the subcontinent it was here that uh Saeed Ahmad of ribarelli 1786 to 1831 and Shah is merely 1779 to 1831 quintessential Islamic Warriors in South Asia South Asian Muslim Consciousness fell in the battle against Sikhs on 6th May 19 1831 uh and uh Psy talks about this battle of balakot where uh Prince Sher Singh was leading the", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-77", "text": "balakot where uh Prince Sher Singh was leading the Sikhs and uh bareilly was beheaded and Shah Ismail the hell we was also killed out here uh balakot was the was the epicenter of terrorism hundreds of years ago is it coincidence then that India decided to attack palakot or history there was there was a Mark that the BJP government wanted to make or the NSA or the defense establishment do you do you see a connection at all I don't think that the establishment was operating from a sense of historical consciousness I think they were operating from a more strategic perspective because balakot was and Remains the training ground so the only way to send a strong message is not by killing the food soldiers but by killing the teachers themselves for hundreds of years 100 yeah that has been the case so the swath Valley and its centrality in providing home to the wahhabis of that particular period malka sithana all these places they are not new they are", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-78", "text": "all these places they are not new they are not the creation of the 1980s so not just the seminaries you're talking about even training grounds for militant Islam yes okay huge because they've always depended on the lushkars and the tribes to provide them with a cannon fodder right and therefore they've established their institutions there the British struggled to kill them there each time they would go they would raise it to ground they would burn it to ground and they'll come back again there's been going on and on and on and that's why there's no industry no development in those areas because historically of course there's an industry it's just a terror industry it's okay the military Jihad uh complex complex right now that has served them historically and it they continue to provide that Cannon photo that you call correct right in Bala court so when when Pakistan put out those pictures and said and not anything significant they were lying correct they couldn't have admitted that such a central spot was hit and because as", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-79", "text": "that such a central spot was hit and because as I said it just it doesn't have just a strategic significance it also has a spiritual significance and I'll explain why now now you see when uh barelby was beheaded they couldn't find either the body or the head one of these two things was missing and again they said miracle miracle okay like Kabir what can't be explained must be attributed to Miracle okay and so it became a shine so people would go there to pay their respects and not just these people would travel all the way from Bengal from uttar Pradesh and other places to go pay their respects now when someone tells me minority Fringe people are contributing my way of money celebrates the fact that the Muslim Community of that particular point of time was celebrating men and money or rather supporting uh contributing men and money to the wahhabi movement he says this in his book in 1847 he says this in his book and after the rebellion of 1857 when the British came", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-80", "text": "after the rebellion of 1857 when the British came down heavily on all these people he redacts that portion of the book in the subsequent Edition he is celebrating the death of the very same person you read out yes this is the history how much are we going to be subjected to Distortion further now the important thing for people to understand is this is not an academic discussion no what you're doing is to say it is a continuing problem it's a continuing issue and if you choose to close your eyes to this and behave like an ostrich that doesn't mean that facts are going to change it only means you're closing your eyes to your own detriment onto your own peril I am not here to sell fear psychosis I have present so the book has been around for four and a half months now it was launched on the 23rd of August I have extracted primary sources why can't people count to me on these facts let people show that these primary sources are lies they won't be able to", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-81", "text": "these primary sources are lies they won't be able to because these are extracts from the official translation of the Muslim League even your lawyer Community your the other lawyers are now terrified that your book is not going to uh form a part of you know uh the academic uh criteria or necessary reading for lawyers so they are all very worried and I'll actually give them the bad news the bad news is Cambridge has accepted both books as part of its Library Digital Library terrible news terrible news now how are you going to deal with this and your fans are saying that look counter him on facts because your book you have quoted God knows how much is research that has gone in in both your books in fact you know so it's it's hard they are uncomfortable truths let me tell you this like it's not wherever you say things uh say when when you just said on Azad even your views on Mahatma Gandhi they are uncomfortable sorry if I may say so correct because anything that you know you've", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-82", "text": "may say so correct because anything that you know you've learned since childhood right you there is a comfort factor your teachers taught you that your parents taught you that you know when you're saying Mahatma Gandhi and then you hear Sai what am I supposed to do tell me I would say uh have you watched this movie Matrix yes I'm learning from marvelous and who's giving you the red pill and I was telling you you're living in The Matrix okay and is unplugging it from The Matrix and was basically saying this Matrix has been created by a combination of three factors history textbooks the sanitized political discourse uh Collective Amnesia of this particular civilization and the fourth X Factor Bollywood okay maybe soft culture pop culture so to speak not just Bollywood is just a representation through books and whatnot we are constantly fed this nonsense you speak of a Zakir Hussain and say this he's the product of syncretic tradition I'd say you know what he is comfortable doing the", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-83", "text": "say you know what he is comfortable doing the Saraswati Vandana all the singers and of the khans of the particular tradition are doing a comfortable doing all of that because it's part of the particular tradition they've imbibed the particular tradition but if you were to ask their core religious if they approve of it they'd be the first ones to be subjected to a fatwa I am not the one making this argument how many people want examples he's living in California it's very easy correct I I don't know if he could live in Pakistan or even in Kashmir for that matter uh if uh I don't know how many people remember this every time an Indian cricketer so celebrates a Hindu festival despite being a Muslim or for whatever reason just go through his comments now just go through the comments and the hate mail that he receives take a look at that as well you see the thing is I don't have a problem with the good parts that exist I'm only saying don't turn", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-84", "text": "good parts that exist I'm only saying don't turn a blind eye to the parts which are dangerous which are problematic so uncomfortable truths I would only say that perhaps we are a Crossroads generation who's comfortable worldview is completely being shaken so intellectual Elites become very uncomfortable with people like you uh and uh you know we had I had Anand ranganathan here and abhijeet also and they were like uh you people like you and Vikram and all there was no Hawa to what you were saying there was no oxygen provided to your books not Publishers not literary festivals and now those intellectual Elites have to now accept that you're part and parcel of the conversation so there are three things Hindu belief system says that some generation benefits from the prayers of the past and I would say that we are benefiting at the expense of the bitter lives and deaths of previous brand of historians of the previous generation of historians who did not get there at you so I would say as", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-85", "text": "not get there at you so I would say as I did in the introduction of the first book that this is an old ashadhanjali to all those tall words including SRI aranshori for him to have done what he did in the in the period that he was active fantastic amazing for someone to take those positions you know your fraternity better than writer so the less said the better so all I'm gonna say is we are benefiting from that and two the age of social media apart from all the garbage that is produced has also given birth to a democratization of opinion which means I am no more at the mercy of the editor who chooses to cut paste or let's say chop my letter to him and then puts it in a fashion manner that is suitable to his own ideology that's not happening anymore three did it happen to you several times articles uh which were solicited were returned I never said I want I want space give it to me it doesn't I mean", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-86", "text": "want space give it to me it doesn't I mean it doesn't make a difference to me I'll create my own space but you asked for it I gave it you couldn't handle it that's okay okay point three that you were making right three is uh I would say that the audience has had enough of this nonsense so there is a audience that is hungry for this content which is why I look back to your first question are we producing enough content to keep Pace with the hunger of the audience actually no there's a greater opportunity here they want decolonization of culture they want decolonization of Music they want decolonization of History they want decolonization of language and whatnot because we have just barely skinned the surface the surface of the surface at this point is there an age group that you're seeing this hunger for more information are they just youngsters who are saying that you know we've we got only one side of the picture or are you seeing middle aged people older people yeah yeah 13", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-87", "text": "you seeing middle aged people older people yeah yeah 13 year olds 18 year olds doing a fantastic job of critiquing my book in a very constructive way that jigyasa is that word so from that age group till the I'd say the late 70s they're saying finally we are we we managed to see this before we pass away and then this generation is saying oh this also exists now the one thing that allow me to make this humble correction lit force a litfest are no more able to ignore us yeah no absolutely and the reason is what can you do when the public is accepting this content you are not able to accuse me of plagiarism which is your standard go to Trope because I'm an IP lawyer by practice come after me and I'll rip you apart I'll take you to the cleaners then on content I'm saying I am not claiming expertise here I am standing on the shoulders of giants I am doing what any scientific publication would do which is Citation citation citation citation 900", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-88", "text": "publication would do which is Citation citation citation citation 900 footnotes and endnotes deal with it and these are you can't even go after the central literature because a lot of it comes from Pakistan yeah you've got that too not just majum yeah I've gone to Pakistan I've gone to Muslim Publishers I've translated as much as possible all of this has happened so I would say that I wouldn't want to take credit for what's happening there is a willing audience all I have done is tried my best to cash in on that particular momentum to ensure that the content satisfies their hunger to the best of my abilities and my limited abilities so I hope more and more people come out this is merely 1.0 we need better people doing this trained people doing this as a full-time lawyer and a practicing advocate who spends about 12 to 13 hours in court what I'm doing is part-time and I will do this only partner because I have no intentions of transitioning to a writer and author I", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-89", "text": "intentions of transitioning to a writer and author I don't want those Brands I'm very comfortable with my identities or I am in love with it so I don't want it but you need people to do this full time a few years ago I happened to attend this small lecture by SRI Michelle danino who was part of the ichr then under this government and then he came out after his term he said we don't have epigraphists we don't have archaeologists we don't have people who know Indian languages we don't have people who understand old Sanskrit so on and so forth those are primary Scholars in the priority list of Scholars I am somewhere in the 10th or the 11th rank this is the grade that we want but the politics surrounding this discussion prevents the talent from going to this particular scholarship because everybody's saying if I take up Sanskrit as my study will I not be branded as so I am basically saying I will fight this battle others who are better qualified", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-90", "text": "I will fight this battle others who are better qualified please go and startino correct I mean you you need a job you need to work unless you're one of those Elites who you know I mean we were talking about your law profession I mean the the book India Bharat and Pakistan uh it talks about the Constitutional journey of a sandwiched civilization now you know they were all uh eminent lawyers if I'm not mistaken and they were they were intellectual Giants also and they were labeled in their lifetime but if hypothetically speaking suppose they were there today would they also think that our constitution needs to be shaved off of this colonial uh layers that we have so I don't see eye to eye on anything with EV ramaswami I don't and I think he was someone who needed to be dealt with encountered on a very serious basis because he has entrenched this fault line of the Aryan davidyan myth in Indian politics and it's an extremely poisonous pernicious malicious myth", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-91", "text": "an extremely poisonous pernicious malicious myth so I'm never going to be able to call him I can't call Gandhi Mahatma uh in fact he would have been the first one to attack me for both my books just as his followers are right uh as far as Dr ambedkar is concerned he's a mixed bag he may agree with a few things he wouldn't have on quite a few things including on my positions of what he thought was the reality of the cast of the history of the cast at least I would say I know neither Sanskrit nor do I know tradition or the shaddarshanas of the Hindu philosophy properly so be very careful about making any comment about these subjects and he admitted that he was not trained in any of these subjects and still he would he went on to make serious comments about these subjects which is where he had a massive dialogue between himself and Gandhi as part of annihilation of cast where he finally said no I have not read", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-92", "text": "cast where he finally said no I have not read Sanskrit my primary source is all he has been able to say so I'd say the one thing that about Dr ambedkar perhaps I would say is if he had been debated or engaged with perhaps he would have changed his position in his own lifetime that's a possibility but the sad part of the current reality is so-called ambedkarites are not even half as red as Dr ambedkar and they are not as open to engagement as Dr ambedkar to that extent I will limit it because even on Dr ambedkar's contribution to the Constitution I'll speak about it in the third and the fourth books because there's a lot that has happened there's a lot that we have inherited so how much can we give credit to a particular individual for having drafted the entire Constitution I'm not sure of it okay we talked about you know um the origins of or the the what should I say about article uh 295 a uh and uh that it's", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-93", "text": "about article uh 295 a uh and uh that it's kind of you know the what should blasphemy provision yes uh in the Constitution that we have those of our viewers listeners um living abroad who don't know about it now 295 A.D deals with deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious feelings of any class by insulting its religious or religious beliefs now this there is according to the Indian Penal Code destruction damage defilement of a place of worship or an object held sacred with intent to insult the religion of a class of persons punishable with imprisonment which may extend to two years uh or with fine with both now this is used a hell of a lot when it comes to the hijab issue when it comes to everything when about blasphemy what are your views about this time to change it time to what should we do so just a small correction previously you mentioned the 295a I mentioned section 124a of the IPC which deals with tradition yeah so here section", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-94", "text": "IPC which deals with tradition yeah so here section 295 way of the IPC that I'll be dealing with in the third book because that deals with what happened around 1924. around the khilafat period when uh Swami shradhanand is undertaking the reconversion of the malkana rajputs and all that back to the Hindu fold so effectively he was undertaking all of this was happening so the I think tempers were afraid the tensions around that particular period and you have to realize that undivided Punjab was Muslim majority no wonder it contributed significantly to the territory of Pakistan and electorally as well so a very nasty pamphlet is issued by members of the other community on sitama it is in response to that that rangila rasool gets published and that leads to the litigation and that leads to the murder of the editor so on and so forth on the on the steps of the court itself all of this happens now obviously then the government of that particular period", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-95", "text": "now obviously then the government of that particular period with the support and uh the advice of Mr Gandhi who said we need a legal provision to address blasphemy so blasphemy comes with significant contribution and input of Mr Gandhi so that's the other 190 this is 295 a 295 a only half so this is 25.95 sedition is 124 120 okay that comes to address the wahhabi movement okay this is this is later now you have to realize that before that something else happens I think it's a 1921 1921 or 24 I don't remember exactly so the ninth chapter of the book I would say please read it and it's a crucial chapter ninth chapter ninth chapter it's the two Nation theory in action correct yeah now you should read the portion uh about kohat first because kohat is in nwfp that's 484 page which is like with Malika and gulbarga correct yeah so there what happens is around krishnashtami or janmashtami remember that by that time the Muslim population of", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-96", "text": "remember that by that time the Muslim population of that particular place comes down to seven uh 93 and Hindu population is seven percent that's it they're outnumbered heavily someone writes a nasty poem on uh Shri Krishna in response members of the Hindu community and I think sanatana Dharma Sabha a gentleman a Ram jivan or jeevan Ramadan remember he responds in kind immediately fatwas are issued and uh just as it happened in Malabar literally they were beating drums to invite people from the neighboring villages to finish off the Hindu population there the Hindu population doesn't know what to do so the heads of the community of the Hindu population they go and they make a public apology saying this was a mistake forgive us but no three days burning looting raping ransacking it goes on no support or help from the British government SOS calls go out over and over again nothing happens then after the third or the fourth day when they realize what's", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-97", "text": "third or the fourth day when they realize what's happening I think from the Rawalpindi contourment the British Armed Forces come in and they've Evacuate the entire population which means there is no possibility of them continuing to live there that's how almost The Exodus of Hindu Exodus of cohort happens that is effectively what is in Pakistan currently Pakistan in case people don't know correct and you should see the exchange between Lara and Mahatma Gandhi during that particular period Mahatma Gandhi is telling the Hindus who have come from kohat don't go back until the Muslims of kohata are in a position to welcome you back so don't go back and I think they've not gone back still now coming to Punjab fortunately the Hindu population was not in this micro minority region it was not seven percent it was significant so therefore there was a retaliation saying that since we are in decent numbers V2 can respond now and then when they realize that this if this", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-98", "text": "now and then when they realize that this if this is if this goes out of hand you're effectively looking at a mini Civil War kind of a situation and so blasphemy as a law comes about now coming to the current data relevance in the Contemporary relevance of it on a daily basis when you look at Twitter and quite a few handles and I'm talking about relevance only in India in Pakistan it's a different ball game correct correct and the origins are from undivided into undivided India yeah now one of the things that I think uh SRI Dr Anand ranganathan and I had a discourse come debate or a discussion come debate on the subject in Pune earlier yeah I saw it last year yeah right it is my belief and I come purely from the protection of the Hindu interest despite being a practicing lawyer but as a practicing Hindu which is that the presence of the provision has made no difference to the ones who are who are comfortable wielding the knife", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-99", "text": "ones who are who are comfortable wielding the knife because the law is not returning to someone who's willing to do that but around the gyanvapi period and around the nupur Sharma controversy period I know of quite a few Delhi based journalists coming from the Muslim Community who hastily deleted all their tweets about the ganvapi mosque when they made fun of it in the worst of terms possible vulgar language was used they deleted it when they realized that action if action could be initiated against nupur Sharma so could it be against others as well that's how even I think Mr zubair also deleted quite a few of his tweets of the last three years which landed him in trouble so the point is if we are to operate within the bounds of the Constitution and if it has to be an equal let's say playing field for all concerned it is not an equal playing field because some people don't seem to care for the existence of the law in which case at the very least I", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-100", "text": "the law in which case at the very least I must have a legal handle to resolve some of these disputes in a forum which believes in peace and justice so 295a is an unfortunate existential necessity to protect our interests in certain ways in an Ideal World I'd say as long as you can have a civil discussion there's no problem and we have had several sampathayas in this country even before the Advent of Islam and Christianity which didn't agree with each other but which were comfortable living with each other and disagreeing with each other Still They had they held competitions they held shastra and whatnot that's a different issue in fact they'd even go to the extent of spewing Venom against each other but somehow they managed to reign in the sword right but you'd now say that bring out take out the shatra spirit yes shatra spirit is not the same as wanton violence shatra's spirit is when someone says that uh we will challenge you despite the existence of the law are Hindus even", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-101", "text": "despite the existence of the law are Hindus even deprived of the right of self-defense I'll give you a state of example here in 1990 it's not as if the presence of the Army in Kashmir was any less right we are in January 2022 or 2023 a few days away from 19th of January so did the presence of the army prevent The Exodus of kashmiri Hindus or kashmiri pundits to be specific no it did not right did the presence of the Indian establishment the Constitution the police prevent people from posting plasters in kairana asking for The Exodus of Hindus no it did not did it prevent the massacre of Hindus in the aftermath of the postpole violence in Bengal in 2021 no it did not so when people say there is the Constitution there is everything I agree with all of this but I'm equally a realist and I've seen what has happened did it prevent the uh the massacre of Hindus in kokraja riots no it did", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-102", "text": "of Hindus in kokraja riots no it did not in fact on the contrary section 66a and 69a were invoked by the then government through its then INB minister to gag on certain handles such as even that of Mr kanchan Gupta who was reporting on what was happening there I know this for a fact by evening they removed the block or the the the gag on the particular handle because I had written a post specifically saying how this is uh illegal and what is the way to get it out I'm not saying that that is why they removed it but they realized how drastic the measure had been so somehow the establishment of the system and all these procedures seem to come in the way of access to justice of Hindus so what am I supposed to say then I'm supposed to repeat the golden knights of Mr Mahatma Gandhi who asked the Jews to go to the gas chamber when Hitler was pushing them into gas Chambers I'm not going", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-103", "text": "pushing them into gas Chambers I'm not going to say that I am only going to say protect your family protect your people because you can't trust the state to arrive at the right time when you need help how is that wrong is self-defense taken away from constitutional morality is it not part of my basic right so then what pragya thakur said keep knives no it's like this the thing is I wish sadhi pragya knew how to speak in English and in queen's English because then perhaps her point would have found better purchase because she wore saffron had a Tikka and has Savvi in her name and said it in Hindi she's obviously vilified and castigated so you have lawyers from the other community around the ca actively telling people to buy arms they went ahead and processed even uh licenses for uh for firearms I don't want to name the individuals concerned and we can't even tell people protect yourself what is the difference right you're not just saying protect yourself you're", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-104", "text": "right you're not just saying protect yourself you're saying arm yourself no so I'm not going to be a mouthpiece for anybody else let me clarify my position here my position is there is a difference between being peaceful and being pacifist I am saying don't be pacifists be peaceful which means look at peace as the first option of Resort but if that's not something that's on the table and that's not even up for negotiation by the other party then protect yourself and therefore shatra's Spirit effectively says is that going to happen that pacifist nature of Hinduism is supposed to have kept this civilization alive despite despite the invasions despite the Colonials contrary it's the martial spirit that has kept this civilization alive the vijayanagar Empire Rana Pratap the marathas do you think they were being peaceful and therefore they would let alive no no not at all pacifism has crept into this country after the introduction of the arms Act and the British where they", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-105", "text": "introduction of the arms Act and the British where they chose to take away your weapons and they chose to ban all your Martial Traditions such as color repair which is practiced in the southern part of the country all these Traditions were banned so Kali repair 2 is effectively a martial art which is which is believed to have been founded by SRI parasurama and therefore it is in the parashramakshatra which is the entire from konkan to Malabar the entire region is practiced now the point is it is absolutely factually and historically inaccurate to believe that the peace loving nature of Hindus is responsible for their continued survival no it's the sword that protected you someone constantly wielded the sword it's sakshatria dakshatra and the non-shatriyas who ended up taking the role of shatriyas they were the ones to do this for us this pacifism is the consequence of the moderate Spirit introduced into Indian public discourse by the creation of this entity called", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-106", "text": "Indian public discourse by the creation of this entity called the Congress I say this very clearly that it was done to diffuse a fire AO Hume had seven volumes of report saying that there was an underground movement building with massive collection of arms and there would be a massive repeat of 1857 or even worse then he chooses to come out with the safety wealth theory that we need to create a political body which provides let's say a platform for ventilation so that this anger is dissipated and therefore we have our ears to the ground that ears to the ground is is the Congress right while I'm heading towards conclusion I have two more questions uh one is about two things which I want you to tell me difference between Hinduism and hindutva is it the same thing or not you've been asked this a million times but still Hinduism and hindutva and is Dharma and sanatan Dharma the same thing right so uh hindutva is a religio political civilizational construct which is resistive", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-107", "text": "a religio political civilizational construct which is resistive in nature protect Hindu Dharma and its adherence it is a necessity of the times we live in unfortunately so even after several years of savarkar's passing and I've said this on my debate with Mr tarut or Dr tharur that it came much before Sava current was actually formulated by Chandra bhushu not sauvarka savarka did not coin Hindu it came much before him and a detailed extract exists an exposition of what is Hindu in that particular sense translates to Ness and therefore it's hindu-ness and it is to say where that identity with pride so Hinduism is the object of protection hindutva is both the sword as well as the shield to protect that particular Hindu nature that's the answer now from my perspective what does it translate to I've clearly said in the first book that a civilizational attempt at rediscovering your roots and re-inscribing your values on the political establishment is hindutva and", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-108", "text": "your values on the political establishment is hindutva and it is perfectly Justified we don't need to be apologetic about it even one bit so Hinduism can coexist peacefully along with hindut they don't need to be in dissonance with each other the existence of Hinduism in the current day is predicated on hindutra being kept alive if in Hinduism were living in peace time hindutva will sleep but if that's not the case hindutva has to stand up it is the shatra aspect of Hinduism that's profound okay now coming to the Dharma and Sanam there is no distinction to the best of my limited knowledge is an untamed person my training has just about begun see Dharma is seen as a code of conduct but if you go deeper what is the meaning of Dharma it comes from uh Rita is the root from Rita which is effectively righteousness in thought it comes down to Satya which is righteousness in speech and Dharma is righteousness in action so it is that", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-109", "text": "Dharma is righteousness in action so it is that is the three layered philosophy between this so Dharma is the final manifestation of Rita okay therefore Rita is what is right and righteous according to cosmological balance so whatever is meant to keep this balance in the same place and alive is Dharma so Dharma is Dharma which is that which sustains what does it sustain this Cosmic balance is because it is effectively a principle of the universe it is therefore Immortal and eternal okay you know you were talking about hindutva and shatra now um as we head closer to elections in uh in Karnataka this whole thing about hindutva is going to come up because the Congress in Karnataka I'm coming back to the president the Congress in Karnataka keeps talking about the BJP being uh that they're extremists I think the word is ugragami that is used against uh uh against the BJP that they are extremists of Hinduism and that is going to disrupt peaceful", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-110", "text": "Hinduism and that is going to disrupt peaceful Society in Karnataka now there are several elections which are coming about this whole thing about who is a Hindu is something that is going to come again and again and there is going to be weaponization of political Hinduism that's going to happen right what do you see the future if of this intellectual debate degenerating into this political discourse is rarely intellectual you know this better than I do it has no space for nuance it has no space for layers it has no space or patience which is why I stay away from the the hustle and bustle and the Advent right of daily politics because that's not my concern my investment hopefully and the investment of my time is in the society because my hope is that a more Hindu conscious Society will produce better options as and when the times call for it because I think it will or they will and therefore this nonsensical discussion that happens at the political platform I don't", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-111", "text": "discussion that happens at the political platform I don't think anybody knows what they're talking about beyond the point and I'm not saying this from a position of arrogance I am saying this as a student of the subject as someone who understands political science that I don't know if they are capable of actually having this discussion at length Beyond a prime time television debate because that would really show what is the depth of their knowledge and their understanding of their own positions we are not looking at the ideologues of a particular movement you're looking at people who are contesting elections yeah right so I don't want to even give them and let's be real and they are the ones who are influencing voting public so you know how important that is right so between you and me let's uh agree on one thing societal discussion has a certain degree of nuance by the time it percolates let's say it it telescopes into a political discussion that Nuance comes out but even the societal discussion", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-112", "text": "that Nuance comes out but even the societal discussion doesn't usually have Nuance it is then in the intellectual Elites where the Nuance actually comes so I would basically apply the Hindu philosophy of desha kalasamya which is to say this platform requires a broad attack on a particular position or a broad exposition of a certain position I can't help the fact that the nature of the process and the nature of the platform doesn't lend itself to Nuance but does it capture the broad essence of it I would say it does well I didn't understand desha kala which is to say a discussion that happens perhaps let's say uh in a seminar on hindut between academics is not going to be the same as a discussion between politicians correct right so therefore the space will determine the degree of nuance that is possible however the nature of political discussion is that it's going to be motivated only Beyond a point right but to the extent that it captures the point Mota Mota I'm", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-113", "text": "extent that it captures the point Mota Mota I'm okay with it and there's a good reason for this why this particular position has not had representation for such a long time and such a forceful representation and as a community which is already lacking in options I am not going to be nitpicking here to say I need someone who is able to Define hindutva with a greater degree of nuance all right let's get real then it falls upon the society to inform itself better independent of the political discussion also it's not just political it's happening with this but on controversy also and in Bollywood the whole thing about Bollywood no it is becoming important no the you saw recently I agree with you but I'll tell you where all these Bollywood people they met up with yogi and they said that stop this ban uh culture Because unless you speak up for us it's not it's impacting on industry also now so let me say something which most people may not even anticipate the speed with which the", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-114", "text": "may not even anticipate the speed with which the community reacted to the pathan controversy is not the speed with which it reacts on freedom of temples from the state is not the speed with which it reacts on environmental issues so these insta gratification issues we seem to be quick to uh take up to and and immediately react because oh we did this we got something boycotted that was the end of it okay but what next so in one of my discussions I've clearly said hindutva or Hindu decoloniality has two aspects one is the resistive the other has to be very very positive it means make sure that your institutions are self-sufficient and are independent of the state make sure that your institutions reach out to people on two important sectors health and education make sure that no woman from this particular Community is ever unsafe make sure that no person from this particular Community is ever hungry ever goes unfed at nights this is exactly what the temples used to do that at", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-115", "text": "exactly what the temples used to do that at the end of the day before the Templar shut the pujari comes out waving a bell is anybody hungry is anybody hungry is anybody hungry the reputation that or let's say the perception of the lungers in the popular mind has to be the perception of people with respect to mothers because at the end of the day is our concept right so these are certain positives now all these discussions are not capable of being had at the political level because it's when you're on a constant election cycle where is the scope for these kind of discussions so there are two Realms I would say the societal realm where hindut was spoken of and discussed and and entrenched in better ways in more positive ways and then the political realm where it is it's it's a free-for-all it's a battle that can't be helped I am not going to take away the right of the society to discuss an entrance citing the political discussion and the lack", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "f0c34a201b29-116", "text": "an entrance citing the political discussion and the lack of its nonsense sorry the comparison is unfair okay well thank you so much I and uh all the best uh I hope your book does very well because it is it's like you said that you have cited so many sources and it's very interesting reading and I hope not just uh youngsters who are interested in history but everybody gets to read this thank you very much for coming thank you for giving me please thank you thanks thank you very much for listening in to this edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste foreign [Music]", "source": "Va8M563EPnE"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-0", "text": "we want the internet to be absolutely free from domination of any Monopoly duoply we want the internet to be a safe and trusted space we don't want this toxic chaotic anything goes Nobody is held accountable type of a domain the Digital Data protection personal data protection bill is going to create a significant behavioral change amongst all those entities who collect user data how can anybody want an internet to be toxic and chaotic and who benefits from that certainly not the platforms who are going to get all kinds of hate mail you know the Indian internet is very different from the internet of around the world because of prime minister Narendra Modi ji delivering so much of governance on the internet the world is looking at India post covet very differently what we have achieved in covet through the power of our technology enablement that the Prime Minister his foresight from 14 to 19 the stuff that the government of India did and that has really helped us distinguish ourselves so differently from every other", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-1", "text": "us distinguish ourselves so differently from every other country in the covert time prime minister has been absolutely gracious we will share our Technologies our learnings our know-hows and our expertise with the world's countries on the issue of agneepath and I I say this uh with seriousness it is a very powerful and a very good thing for the future of our armed forces and the future of Indian youth I have played badminton as a youngster on a badminton court with a fighter pilot to find two days later that he died in a crash for me the fact that I couldn't serve my nation in uniform uh in a sense I I think I'm compensating by serving in public life now Namaste jaihind welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is three-time Member of Parliament Rajiv Chandra shekhar besides being a politician Rajiv is also an entrepreneur and technocrat he serves in the Modi cabinet as minister of State for electronics and information technology", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-2", "text": "as minister of State for electronics and information technology and minister of State for skill development and Entrepreneurship Rajiv doesn't hesitate to speak his mind on administrative reforms National Security and Welfare of veterans joining me in the podcast is my colleague sahil Pandey welcome to the podcast Mr chandrashekhar we are very very happy that you're here with us a million questions we want to ask you since you are the Modi government's go-to person on everything digital this podcast will be about of course skill India it will be about the new digital bill but there'll also be politics so I will ask you about the Gujarat election about Himachal results but first of course about this Twitter files I mean you have said that you know this is weaponization of misinformation uh with regard to Twitter files so I would want to know about this new digital policy and how it's going to safeguard Indians and the Indian digital space but before I do all that for those of our viewers and readers who", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-3", "text": "that for those of our viewers and readers who don't know and listeners who don't know about what Twitter files is all about here's a short explainer uh because you know uh it is a controversy and it is something which is impacting on many people so I thought I would do a short explainer and after that ask you about this Twitter files is a document written by a journalist which exposed the blacklisting and Shadow Banning done by Twitter before Elon Musk bought in so Mr Chandra shekar my question follows after this explainer that how is this new digital law that you're bringing about how is this going to safeguard Indians from The Fallout of this weaponization of of Twitter as you said Thank you for having me this is the first podcast that I'm doing after I think three three and a half years so okay uh so thank you for having me um look uh I have said this for some years now uh first as a member of Parliament and then after uh the Prime Minister Modi gave", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-4", "text": "and then after uh the Prime Minister Modi gave me this opportunity to serve in his Council ministers I've said that uh we must understand how the internet has evolved the internet evolved sort of it's being came it came to being an evolved as a force of good and I despite uh how old I look or don't look I've been involved in the internet from the earliest days of his Creation in the U.S and it was seen as this Utopia where all things could happen and good people came together we exchanged ideas there were debates and all of that was true for uh several decades and years still the creation of this uh monster called social media over the last decade and it has become very clear that social media as much as it represents a force of good also represents danger and use or harm and one of the principal areas of use or harm that is coming out of social media and the internet in general is this issue of this this characteristic and rapidly proliferating", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-5", "text": "issue of this this characteristic and rapidly proliferating uh strategy in some sense of people using misinformation and misinformation has a certain Dynamic to it and we have conducted in the ministry and in the government detailed studies which shows that fake news misinformation disinformation has a totally different velocity characteristic reach characteristic compared to real facts and real news which is boring by Nature yeah it may not be boring I mean it may be really factual that India launches the gslv and puts 20 satellites in space which is not boring it is great achievement it is really a piece of important interesting fact but if there is a corollary to it which says that you know something happened and there is a mix of Truth and fiction and there is a targeted at a person or targeted at an institution we have studied and seen that it travels 10 to 20 times faster and reaches an audience similarly that is much worse than the the audience for a piece of actual fact so misinformation and disinformation", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-6", "text": "a piece of actual fact so misinformation and disinformation for several years governments just sort of brushed it off and said look it's a group of people sort of slugging it out ideologies are slugging it out on the internet why should we intervene why should we interfere but over the last few years in particular and the Twitter files uh proves it that the power of these platforms can be misused and abused to weaponize misinformation weaponize in one particular direction either an ideological direction or in the direction of a particular person or direction of a particular Community or direction of against a particular state or a government or whatever and that in my opinion is an unacceptable phenomenon and unacceptable to what the internet should be and that is why prime minister Narendra modi's government has repeatedly said our boundary condition our principles around the future of the internet ought to be that the internet is open it is safe and trusted because we are the largest internet nation in the world right we will have", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-7", "text": "largest internet nation in the world right we will have 1.2 1.3 billion Indians connected we have 800 million Indians connected to the inter today women elderly youngster students so for us keeping the internet safe keeping the internet as a trusted place of information is absolutely a duty for the government because I we can't have a 12 year old or a 14 year old using the internet for Education suddenly being pummeled by misinformation or disinformation and he being sort of gaslighted doxed whatever into believing things that are not necessarily true so it is very important for us that the internet evolve into being a safe and trusted place and therefore this debate on how do we deal with disinformation and misinformation and I call it weaponization because it is not innocent it is not simply somebody getting the one plus one uh mathematic wrong and saying oh I think it is three it is one plus one means something because it it is to undermine somebody it is to create harm mental uh Agony or indeed", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-8", "text": "is to create harm mental uh Agony or indeed something more uh on somebody or some institution or or a particular process like an electoral process yeah it could be Insidious as was shown with uh yeah so the computer files is is remarkable because a lot of us guessed it a lot of us surmise that such a platform without Fitters can cause harm but it turns out that they were not only doing it there was a group of people that were misusing the power without any oversight without any law holding them to account and therefore we say the internet must grow the internet must be accessible by every Indian citizen but we owe it to the Indian citizen that the internet is open safe and trusted and that every platform is accountable to all its users so these are in a sense the principles around which we are building our policies rules and how we view the internet and its participants you know you were talking about uh about how Indian youth men women anybody can fall prey to this because we probably", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-9", "text": "anybody can fall prey to this because we probably don't have the tools to combat this this weaponization this this weapon of uh misinformation that is coming our way so now this new digital India act that you're bringing about you know how is this going to equip Indians with this so we started with uh the new I.T rules and we started the public consultation the Prime Minister insists that whatever new law we bring in uh a must be global standard must be benchmarkable with the best practices around the world and most importantly every Indian stakeholder in the cyberspace or on the Internet domain must have an opportunity to read understand and contribute to the formation of these new laws and new policies so giving giving you an example in February or 2022 we started consultation on the new it rules and that took us three and a half months and we notified it about a few months a few weeks ago and that lays out the basic framework it says for the first time that if you are a platform and you are", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-10", "text": "time that if you are a platform and you are serving Indian users and you're operating in India you have an obligation to make sure certain types of content do not find place on your platform and we have laid that down in a letter and verse in chapter and verse and in in the Clause what is now become famous because everybody has read it I hope called 31b129 and there's those nine characteristics or nine types of content cannot find place on your platform and you cannot simply take the old Rico saying that I'm only a platform I have no control about what my users post or do that is not a framework that is acceptable anymore you are a platform you have an obligation under the Indian law and these new rules to ensure that certain types of content whether they are inciting insightful content that create religious disharmony whether they are csam child sexual abuse type of content whether they're other content which is religious hatred and National Security type of issues or indeed misinformation so there is", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-11", "text": "type of issues or indeed misinformation so there is now for the first time a casted obligation on every platform whether you're YouTube or Google or Facebook or Twitter or anybody big or small foreign or Indian that you cannot have this content and oh by the way if you somehow slip up and you are not able to in with your content moderation Technologies and tools not able to pick up one particular instance or two particular instances if that is reported to you you have an obligation in 72 hours to remove it so there is no uh Escape or there is no out from your obligation as being a responsible platform responsible to the safety and the trust of the internet and the safety of our digital Network after these rules were notified so is there a grievance mechanism one question yes second question what about is that punitive action if uh if they break some so let me explain and and I I want to lead this conversation into the your main question which is where is the DIA the digital India", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-12", "text": "question which is where is the DIA the digital India act the digital India act will be an evolution of these thinking into a brand new legislation hopefully by next year and early next year rather than later next year uh the reason for digital India act I will first explain to your listeners and viewers is that the I.T act which is the real legislation that governs the internet and the technology space is 22 years old it was it was framed and passed in 2000 social media yeah before social media and before indeed the internet in its current form and the IT act does not even mention the word internet uh just for the information of a lot of your listeners so that act was of a particular Legacy particular time in our history of Technology uh we are currently a country post covet that is increasingly demonstrating leadership to the whole technology space we deserve modern laws and a modern framework that to attract not just Indian Innovation but foreign Innovation to be practiced in India and therefore this framework will be defined", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-13", "text": "in India and therefore this framework will be defined by this new digital India Act but the basic moving parts of that the basic principles are already visible with the I.T rules that I just talked about and the digital personal data protection bill that is just being put out for consultation which is that we want the internet to be absolutely free from domination of any Monopoly duoply which is the openness pack part we want the internet to be a safe and trusted space we don't want this toxic chaotic anything goes Nobody is held accountable type of a domain which is what it is today people can say what they say people can do what they do but they fear no consequences because they believe that the cyberspace is very different from the real world where laws apply and there is a general feeling that in the cyberspace laws don't apply so we want to change that we want to reverse that perception in particular because huge amount of Indian population is going to be using on using the internet so I just", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-14", "text": "to be using on using the internet so I just want to say that the I.T rules the dpdp show a pathway to the eventual digital India act and this as a framework will create a space for 1.3 billion Indians and the Innovations and the economy and the services that they can all use and enjoy so I think that is our broad thinking and uh you know a lot of questions are asked about why was it done not done earlier and why was it done I think and this is the other things that governments all around the world have treated these platforms with kid gloves for about several years because it's a it's a it's big started taking on life form yes and the spin walls that we are innovators so governments must never regulate innovators so a large part of what Google is or what Twitter is or what Facebook has become uh has grown under the watch of several governments but have with government basically saying no no light touch we should not believe yeah", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-15", "text": "no no light touch we should not believe yeah globally globally all not it's nothing to do with India it is now that governments are beginning to respond all around the world by the way the debate of for example you ask me what are the punitive consequences that are in Visage on the it rules the DIA we will talk about when the DIA comes out there will certainly be criminal consequences there under the I.T rules for example let me tell you one clear consequence if the content moderation and the no go areas of content are violated by a platform we will withdraw what is called under rule 7 the section 79 protection for these platforms and I'll explain to you under Section 79 of the it act all these platforms are protected from prosecution for any malicious content on them unlike let us say a news media platform if you do something wrong or just you are completely accountable absolutely platforms around the world have escaped that kind of accountability in the U.S they have something called the section", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-16", "text": "in the U.S they have something called the section 230 in India we have a parallel called section 79 and platforms have always pretended that look we are just dumb platforms we have no way of controlling what people say or do on our platform and therefore we can never be prosecuted you can prosecute them now this is fine but then they allow them to be anonymous okay so there is a there is a the sum of this math is that a platform which is known has the content cannot be prosecuted the person who's posting it can post it without and with absolute anonymity the consequence of this is that you can do whatever you want on that platform and nobody will ever be the wiser nobody will ever pay the consequences so we we have said that is not on if you don't moderate these contents you have a casted obligation of moderating these type of contents and if you don't do it we will withdraw the Safe Harbor under Section 79 as Government will withdraw that and you will directly", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-17", "text": "79 as Government will withdraw that and you will directly face the Wrath of the person the citizen who has been damaged or who has been hurt by the content that has been posted on you but the onus then again comes on the citizen right you know it could be the government Department it could be a Ministry of Home Affairs it could be Ministry of Finance it could be a government state government that can prosecute on behalf of the citizens a citizen can go file an Fir and go to a state government body and say look I have been uh uh you know there's information on this particular platform that effectively sort of appreciates my right right to life or whatever okay let's do a hypothetical situation uh somebody puts out an information on YouTube or Twitter and says that uh vandals have gone and attacked a temple in this area it's been done by people who were dressed as Muslims we don't know whether they are Muslims or Hindus or whatever they have gone and broken a", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-18", "text": "Hindus or whatever they have gone and broken a temple right Riot breaks out all right now what is the next step so as what what has happened for so long has been the following which is that let us say that post was on a particular platform by a person who calls himself XYZ the platform says I am not responsible for the Post correct because under Section 79 I'm just a dumb platform this guy's done it the Cyber police of the jurisdiction or the police department who files a case for this violence under the normal crpc will come to the platform who has incited this who's this person no let me interrupt you can't even go to the platform because as you were mentioning before we began the podcast so before May of 2021 yeah most police grappled with who's this platform where are they how do we reach them yeah and the address will be Fresno California San Francisco California Timbuktu Timbuktu post box number so and so that got fixed because we said you", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-19", "text": "so and so that got fixed because we said you have to have a grievance officer who's accountable that is done in May 2021 as a big first step now you reach out to the grievance officer the police person reaches out or the citizen reaches out or a citizen somebody representing the citizen reaches out to the grievance officer so the grievance Officer says yeah we looked at it but that person is uh is we don't know who he is because he hasn't left his name it is Mr uh XYZ in the rules now we have put something called first originator that is even if you do allow anonymity on your platform to protect somebody's privacy that anonymity cannot be a way for them to escape illegality okay this is a very important thing because this is a position I've taken in Parliament when a question was posed by a congress MP of all people who said why are we not making sure all social media platforms do a kyc on all the users", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-20", "text": "media platforms do a kyc on all the users no goodness okay now which is which is one way of regulating it so I said at the current moment our government's views that anonymity does protect privacy and we see no reason to meddle with that however that can only work if the platform is able to deliver to us in the event of an illegality let us say an anonymous person has committed an illegal act like Pro like post child sexual abuse content or pornography content or a definitely context not definitely some content that is violating somebody's rights even if that person is anonymous to the rest of the world the platform must have a way of identifying that person but then that can be misused right but governments can pressurize the platform only if there is a proven illegality okay not if I just pick up a phone on a on a casual day and say yo Mr platform tell me who this person is yeah that they can't do see no I beg to differ here see for example in Iran", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-21", "text": "I beg to differ here see for example in Iran there are all these hijab protests which are happening they're obviously breaking the law right those women are going and burning hijabs and things like that we saw this happening in Egypt and everywhere when those protests were happening they are breaking the law in some way but those are democratic movements the Baloch are doing it in Pakistan it's happening across the world wherever there are this is a dangerous so so I we I am not Iran we are not Iran we are not Baloch so let's not talk about it so I we can't use a scenario or a situation in a dictatorship or a theocracy and say we will use that justification to uh design or Justify something yes India said it's an open liberal democracy There are rules of law we have an obligation to those who follow the law the people who follow the law must have as much respect as people who want to violate the law and those who violate the", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-22", "text": "to violate the law and those who violate the law must be not people who say as long as I violate the law on cyberspace nobody can reach me because I have a the platform can't uh say anything because they will take protection under Section 79 and I will protect uh hide under anonymity and I can do whatever I can do I can sell drugs online I can do csam I can do religious hatred I can do all of that no that is not acceptable okay so that we have put a full stop to and that is what this uh like I said is there a parallel in like say in Europe any liberal democracies no I think everybody is waking up towards and that's the other things but I don't think we need to keep looking at behind our back and saying is anybody else doing it yeah and that that is something we must get out of because we are and I say this with great uh humility we are the largest connected democracy in the world and so we have", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-23", "text": "connected democracy in the world and so we have to be setting the basis and the tone and the tempo of how the internet will be safe and trusted and we should show to the rest of the world that this is how we keep our people safe rather than keep looking at Europe or keep looking at South America or USA or wherever you want and look if if people have an interest in looking at the U.S that is why the Twitter files are telling you what the misuse and abuse was correct so there's this whole uh I mean I am a big one for self-regulation I understand that in self-regulation it doesn't happen in most cases it doesn't happen but I guess freedom for media has been so uh so valuable for us and we try to protect as much as we can so whenever more regulation comes in it makes us fearful no and I don't think there is a fear and honestly I I you know I I was the one who petitioned on the right to privacy in Supreme", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-24", "text": "who petitioned on the right to privacy in Supreme Court as an MP yeah and you also remember to get this section 66a uh disallowed yeah so I don't think this is a this is a binary that the right to free speech must not necessarily also be used to justify right to disinformation right to free speech is something we value right that right to free speech is the basic fundamental foundational principle or around which our democracy is built but to in a sense extend that to implying the right to disinformation is also fundamental right is wrong correct right to do criminal acts online is in the name of free speeches is wrong so I think we have to start being comfortable with the notion that right to free speech is something right to disinformation is a very very separate thing it creates harm it creates uh you know real harmful yeah social harm individual harm and it is an issue that needs should be not conflated with the right to free speech right to free speech is absolutely fundamental to uh and", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-25", "text": "to free speech is absolutely fundamental to uh and there will be no dilution of that at all then what would be the guidelines for a grief person if somebody gets aggrieved by a post what he or she should make sure before the matter is taken up by the uh so this is exactly what I'm saying that uh three one B one to nine is not about a grieving it doesn't deal with what are you upset about this doesn't talk about things like you are defamed there was a particular for example in the rules there was a thing called defamation that content that was definitely should be removed we've removed that deformation is something that a legal process will determine that's a total civilians this is one to nine lays out content of the type that is like I said if you read that it's very clear there's nothing ambiguous religious hatred incitement again in the name of religion National Security very simple see Sam misinformation and it says patently false misinformation you are a Pakistani agent that", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-26", "text": "false misinformation you are a Pakistani agent that is misinformation Rajiv chandrashekar is XYZ patently misinformation there's not defamation there is no defamation yeah so there is nothing in the three one uh B one to nine that says if you are aggrieved by the content there's nothing it talks about certain categories of content that hundred percent consensus is there should not be on a neat platform and if you continue to put that on the on the platform then you will no longer have the save Harbor protection under Section 79 and then you deal with those who are aggrieved by that one to nine that is the that is the architecture what are the steps then like does a citizen who suppose I get called uh a Pakistani yeah who do I go to do I go to the government do I go to the platform you go to the platform okay and if the platform does not take it down in 72 hours and then sits on its backside and says thank you smithaji for your email yeah we have", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-27", "text": "says thank you smithaji for your email yeah we have gone on vacation while you stew in your problem uh then you go to what is called the Appellate committee grievance appellate committee where you will just forward your uh complaint and the grievance ability committee will be operationalized very soon you will just forward it to them it's a digital thing you don't have to show you don't have to hire a lawyer nothing as in really forward it and the grievance appellate committee will rule on your uh your your complaint and say whether they have to be section 79 has to be withdrawn on rule 7 has to be withdrawn okay cut the finish it will be a very smooth process but you you understand that the volume of complaints that are going to come in look there is no way around it okay no there is no I want uh your viewers and listeners also understand we are basically playing catch-up with an Internet that has billions of people on it and in India we have 80 crore", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-28", "text": "people on it and in India we have 80 crore Indians already on it and we'll have 120 crore Indians on it there is no shortcut to making sure that the internet is safe and trusted by accepting one platform at a time convince them that there is this is this casted obligation that they have I have met with them repeatedly I meet with them regularly we have reports on who's complying who's not complying and if somebody has a slower curve of compliance then we point it out to them the one of the things of the GSE will be that it will create these analytic reports of which platforms are complying and most consistent with the safe and trusted goal and objective of the government of India and India as a whole and who are not and it is very clear if people choose not to be not to follow the obligations of making the internet safe and trusted for Indian citizens then they will have to constantly fight all the cases that they have to fight in court and it is", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-29", "text": "that they have to fight in court and it is possible that in the digital India act we make this process a lot more short-circuited and collapse in the tail end of the process that we don't have to keep telling them go to GAC the GAC within rule that if you don't do this it may be an absolute thing that you are then blocked in India that is also one suggestion that people have given that you cannot do business in India and you cannot act in India you cannot serve customers or citizens of India if you do not meet your obligations currently we have given them a long rope the the jurisprudence and the framework and the thinking is that we've given them a long rope and that we will give them one chance and and then a second opportunity to take it down and maybe the digital India act during the public consultations people will say look there's no need for that long rope how they have been reacting to this initiative look by and large I think platforms and governments", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-30", "text": "look by and large I think platforms and governments at least I have said this we don't want a adversarial relationship because it is in their interest as it is in the government's duty to keep the internet safe and trusted how can anybody want an internet to be toxic and chaotic and who benefits from that certainly not the platforms who are going to get all kinds of hate mail and all of that so therefore unless your city does bring in more eyeballs doesn't it oh well I I think that was the that was I'm just saying no that's fine I think that was the that was the conventional thinking okay that the more outrageous you are the more eyeballs you will get that the more you create these completely far out types of stories and content the more people you will get on your platform and which may be maybe to a certain categories of content okay for example pornography and so on and so on but in in bulk of the content platforms are realizing that type of", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-31", "text": "of the content platforms are realizing that type of an eyeball that you get through this kind of notoriety comes with other downside baggage legal criminal all kinds of other things so I would go out on a limb today and say that platforms have in a sense come full circle they have gone Straight From the Path of platforms doing good and then believed in for some years saying that look we can get the eyeballs any which way we can get the eyeballs of any eyeball that we can and then realize that that comes yeah that comes with his own cache of challenges for them okay as platforms challenges for them to in their dealings with governments and citizens as the other customers and now beginning their beginning the thing is beginning to come full circle where people say look we are all in a sense stakeholders in wanting the internet to be much more predictable much more safe so much more trusted because eventually we want the Elder Citizen and the younger citizen the husband and", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-32", "text": "Citizen and the younger citizen the husband and the wife the single woman all of them to be using the internet without worrying about it they are worrying isn't it because big Tech really has a monopoly on information I'm going to come to yeah we'll be discussing it especially when I you know when we speak with senior citizens and all they're worried because there's so much is happening they have so much of information how do we control them I can assure you I mean I don't want to overstate this the males that I get the messages that I get are not uh in any way thing to be just dismissed there are you know the Indian internet is very different from the internet of around the world because of prime minister Narendra Modi ji delivering so much of governance on the internet the profile of the internet user in India is much diverse and much more inclusive than the US where still it is a younger generation who's using it and the more educated Elite that use", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-33", "text": "who's using it and the more educated Elite that use it so in our case safety and Trust takes on a certain much more urgent sort of a requirement the Americans or the Western Europeans I mean I think the Europeans are also beginning to wake up to this that and even the Australians are beginning to wake up to this that we uh that internet needs to be safe and trusted because that is the only way the internet can sustainably grow otherwise it's going to become this vicious Battlefield a constantly tearing and pulling and people in the middle of it bulk of the users of the internet who come onto the internet bereft of any ideology of any particular reason accepting that they want to use it for a particular service that they are now getting digitally or deliver some work that they do digitally they don't want to be caught in all this toxicity and volatility and uh you know this this sort of a feeling of mistrust so where are the firewalls where are these firewalls which can", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-34", "text": "are the firewalls where are these firewalls which can keep us safe for example you know you you've come out with this uh rule government rule that we can't make cash payments in hospitals you need to make it through uh Digi payments you make that above a certain amount but now this aims thing which got hacked so what happens information one of the things is clear that as we proliferate technology and the internet and we do it obviously to benefit in citizens and this is around the world and transform their lives and make it easier for them the issues of harm are also catching up the issues of criminality are also catching up now clearly aims we know it's a ransomware attack it is clear it is very unlikely to be some State actor type a state active type of an entity it is very very sophisticated and it's done from across somewhere now as we have 80 crore Indians and 120 crore Indians coming online yeah and more and more small Enterprises large Enterprises government departments", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-35", "text": "more and more small Enterprises large Enterprises government departments all getting digitized issues of security also come to the fore yeah because like I said uh use your harm and criminality also will will expand it is precisely for that that these guard rails need to be built you you talked about what are the filters or what are the boundary conditions I call them boundary conditions and guard rails so the digital India act the digital personal data production Bill the I.T rules currently these are all is essentially talking about safety and trust and accountability and safety interest include cyber security because if you don't feel secure in the cyber space then how do you get safety and Trust so these are all things that have to be accompanied now for example dpd people and uh let me since you called me here let me pitch that a little bit the Digital Data protection personal data protection bill is going to create a significant behavioral change amongst all those entities who collect user data because For the First Time there is a legislation that makes it", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-36", "text": "the First Time there is a legislation that makes it very expensive for you to be negligent or misuse personal data now in a in a at a different time in a different age if this data breach of aims had not been let us say due to a ransomware attack and it had been purely due to negligence aims would have been on the hook to pay a significant amount of money as compensation under the dpdp so there is going to be in the coming months a significant behavioral change in terms of how you even manage the data regardless of whether you're government or your private sector you bring their accountability exactly so that is why I said the guard rails are safety trust and accountability so these bills and policies that we are bringing in today we have today so Google comes under that too everybody will come under that okay every intermediate because that's the that's the search platform that we everybody goes into absolutely and yeah and you since you're asking let me tell you very candidly a", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-37", "text": "you're asking let me tell you very candidly a search engine that has deci depended significantly on taking cookies with personal data of users will find that they will have to change their models on the dependence and Reliance on personal data to fine-tune their searches see how many of us will will say no I don't want to manage cookies everybody says okay fine because it's such a nuisance so we will create this I think no firstly not many people understand what it is so the look this uh Smith I think we will all as governments all around the world governments all around the world are grappling with this which is that the the knowledge and foresight and understanding of the underlying internet that the big tech companies have yeah there's a huge gap between that and how the governments understanding and users and the users especially in India where literacy is that is just a fact we have to address that we will run these campaigns after the dpdp bill is is put out there we will run these", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-38", "text": "bill is is put out there we will run these exhaustive campaigns to tell consumers what their rights are so who gets involved is it like a public private partnership is it rwas is it it'll be everyone's colleges we will do schools you will do college all of the above because it is essentially it is like writing the Constitution digital constitution for the digital for the digit new digital world that's an ambitious task really I mean it will not work only if the minister or the government or the minister or the ministry does a nice law it has to be the consumers that basically understand the rights that have been given and enforce that yeah absorb and use it exactly okay finally the governments around the world and in particular in India because of the way uh the philosophy of honorable prime minister which is we we want to create an enabling ecosystem and allow the citizens to ensure that they have their rights and the private company is all the entities that they deal with understand what", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-39", "text": "is all the entities that they deal with understand what the corresponding obligations are and finally if there is a dispute between that there are simple methods of making sure those are adjudicated in this particular case it will be the data protection board so if your data is given to him as a data intermediary as a platform and he makes a mess of it or misuses it all you have to do is go to a digitally send an email to a data data protection board and the data protection board sends a notice to the big Tech platform and will find them X100 human on the other side of the interface or is it an artificial intelligence in our case for the conceivable near term it'll be people people okay because accountability for the decision is also as important the reason I'm asking you is because in America for example these kind of problems when you when you call back and say that okay it can be just a hospital you can't get through to a human yes you get stuck you don't know", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-40", "text": "a human yes you get stuck you don't know where to go especially for people like I mean especially for Indians where we have an illiteracy element also you know whether it is digitally literacy we don't have so many educated Indians and it could be something like oh my pension has got wiped out from the back right right what do I do do I get up and go to the bank sometimes you can't get up and go to the bank and say that yeah what happens then and then like when you were asking the aadhar linking it with us yes because uh there's a cyber fraud which is happening nowadays we hear about it so will there be accountability regarding that as well because many of the cases are still pending and unresolved so let me talk about cyber fraud for a minute I mean whatever now cyber fraud like gaming is an issue with actually Law and Order is a State subject so if a citizen is let us say defrauded in the normal world what does he do", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-41", "text": "defrauded in the normal world what does he do he goes to the police station and files a case correct so even in cyber fraud as much as the internet is regulated by the government of India and the policies are made by the government of India illegalities and crimes in the cyberspace are still the domain of the state government the issue there is the capabilities within each state police department to deal with this because this is sophisticated stuff because it is like I said the victim may be in Bangalore the criminal may be in some other country and the intermediary the the data platform could be sitting in another state in India so these are sophisticated crimes for which capabilities have to be built up and I want to tell you very clearly that these are all capabilities that have been built up as we speak even in other countries it is not like any other any other country is like saying no no we have got all the facts and we know how to do it the US is a particularly easier", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-42", "text": "how to do it the US is a particularly easier time doing is because they have something called the FBI you know and they have the capabilities and they have the tools and so on and so forth so we don't have this Nationwide jurisdiction on Cyber Law and cyber fraud as uh Nia no Nia has but then they have to they come in when investigation yeah investigation when there is a multi-state conspiracy and so on and so forth okay I think there are some filters involved in that case yeah so but the original jurisdiction of the of such a cyber crime is the state government and the state police and we are working with state governments and state you know when the home Ministry is doing that as well which is to create more and more tools and more and more capabilities at the State Police level uh the cert for example in our ministry Works actively which is a computer Emergency Response Team Works actively with the state governments and State Police Department so where all these travel most of these troubles at", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-43", "text": "so where all these travel most of these troubles at least are coming is that when you know people again and again I'm saying senior citizens because they are so vulnerable and including children where you know information is asked that give your number yeah it comes via WhatsApp about text messages so most people are following victims via WhatsApp not many senior citizens are going into the internet to do it it's coming via text message or WhatsApp and they give the information so what happens then who do they go to no so let's let's look at example so let's say there's a e-commerce company okay and you go there to buy a book or something like that and you've given your details and they sell you the book and then somebody from that e-commerce leaks the data and a third person calls you and says give us your number now straight off the bat the person who has violated the personal privacy of the consumer is the actual original platform that took the data to deliver a service and all the citizen has to do", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-44", "text": "deliver a service and all the citizen has to do at that point is to send a one-page email saying my data given on so-and-so dead to this platform has now come back to me through another person to the data protection board if you just sends off email the notice goes to that particular platform it will be it is not it is still cumbersome it is it is cumbersome but it is it will get to a conclusion as opposed to today people having no solution at all number one number two and I say this uh I said this before also the entire idea of this framework is not that we have more and more citizens sending notices to the data protection board that an obligation is put on all the platform that is so the idea is to create a framework of deterrence of punitive action punitive action of costs of consequences and so that then behaviorally they will adapt to a new model where they respect the nagri respect his or her data and don't play around with it or", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-45", "text": "or her data and don't play around with it or don't misuse it or easily allow it to this Utopia where consumer is King we are really far from it no no when I'm the first one to admit that we are far from it but we will get there is my found home that's your yeah that's your path that's the mission that The Honorable prime minister has given us and we have to get there because data security because many of the vvips uh data is under threat and because it's a ransomware attack so how how to strengthen this security how to stand that's a no no so look like I said I think as the internet proliferates and grows and as more and more institutions individuals come onto the internet and obviously a lot of people are going onto the internet with the view that I just want to do this or I just want to do that the issues of corresponding issues of the reciprocal issues of security and securing yourself on the internet also become important objectives", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-46", "text": "yourself on the internet also become important objectives now aims I frankly don't know the exact detail of it except I know that they had outsourced it to a private company to manage their systems and uh and that private company uh systems what was the weaknesses vulnerabilities I have no idea uh accepting that we we have understood through cert that clearly there was a very concerted sophisticated ransomware attack on the system now could that ransomware attack have been uh stopped protected against that only time will tell us because you know you feel all the more uh because aims is where all our ministers Prime Ministers presidents all the VIPs go top leaders go there so you know any leakage of information from there is worrying just even from a national security point of view no so my view on this is obviously for me any security any cyber security is worrisome correct whether it is an individual or whether it is a large institution or whether it's a government institution or a private institution that's glad to hear", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-47", "text": "institution or a private institution that's glad to hear this from a minister 100 of course it is I mean uh we we are you know like they say oldest democracy the largest democracy and every Indian has the right to feel secure and safe whether he or she is on the cyberspace or he or she is on the in the physical world so uh but we have to wait for the whole overall investigation to get company to understand what were the vulnerabilities if there were any or was it just purely the nature of a sophisticated attack understand in the context of terrorism this phrase is used that we have to be right all the time and they have to be rightfully once correct so in cyberspace also it is is really is really about that because the the nature of hackers is so sophisticated today and I will say this because it just makes for interesting hearing I I would think for your listeners that I am on the dark internet in couple of groups obviously not as a minister with another", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-48", "text": "of groups obviously not as a minister with another name uh with a different identity and I here 18 year olds and 19 year olds talking about um you know infiltration and hacking and cloning and Sim cloning and cloning identities with a Panache and with a with a confidence that is just mind-boggling okay so so we must not ever underestimate the sophistication of these people who are threatening these systems and are constantly challenging uh systems on on on the internet a very basic question they do this for the thrill of it they do it for money what is it there's there's part thrill uh part money um there are people who might have overheard in groups talking about how they've hacked the e-wallets and transferred the millions of dollars from e-wallets uh and you know this was a retirement crypto was booming and so look it is a very sophisticated world and at play are forces and Technologies and minds and brains and motivations that are very very complex so uh I", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-49", "text": "motivations that are very very complex so uh I don't think we'll ever be at a time and place where a hundred percent of our systems are completely secure like I said the whole terrorism analogy yeah but we can certainly make it very difficult for people to to test our systems as we are doing to a large part of the critical infrastructure today we are we are very sophisticated systems which you defend our infrastructure but like I said sometimes uh the one that gets through gets through and we have to go back and see how do they get through and make sure they don't get through again okay I'm going to move away from the danger part a little bit and talk about uh you know uh there are several research papers on a regional language consumers uh of internet in India and most Indians like to to consume it said that you know internet in their local language and that's more Hindi and Tamil and so you have this very ambitious project bhashini could you tell me a little bit about", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-50", "text": "bhashini could you tell me a little bit about oh absolutely thank you for asking this question because I think one of the uh things that we the world hasn't understood is about how diverse the users on the internet are Because the Internet originated in the U.S and Western Europe everybody just plays to this narrative that the English is fine for the internet but with 1.2 billion Indians who are going to come online people want to consume the internet people want to consume content which are in their language and not go via English or via Hindi uh and so bhashani is the one big project that The Honorable prime minister and Visage uh two two years ago three years ago which basically is aimed at creating a set of language translation tools that will allow better access in the language of your choice to users all across country so search engines browsers email at one level in terms of applications and of course consume content in a translation mode now this has tremendous apart from the inclusion argument this has", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-51", "text": "tremendous apart from the inclusion argument this has tremendous other opportunities you are also seeing the trend now on Otts of how South Indian movies have suddenly developed This Global audience correct because of dubbing and uh you know uh all of those language basically the same product being offered in multiple languages now imagine if that is an instantaneous process that you don't have to do the dubbing that you just pass a a product whether it's a video product or an audio product or a podcast or a video or film through a platform that comes out on the other end with the same video but with a different language and that is the direction that we are going in and so it is an artificial intelligence being applied to language translation the substantial progress has been made on that the Prime Minister last year long talked about it in the digital India the annual digital India day and it is a very very Central piece of making sure that the 1.2 billion Indians can consume the internet in the way", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-52", "text": "billion Indians can consume the internet in the way in the language that they are more natural or more um uh sort of they feel more happy doing so so in this uh my next question obviously is regarding your ministry itself will this will this give impetus to to entrepreneurship to new jobs yeah just imagine today for example and that is also part of what we'll do in the DIA which is apart from Innovation and Tech and all of that that we are seeing anyway with the unicorns and the startups and we think that is just the tip of the iceberg and will continue to proliferate and grow as we expand uh the opportunities content creation and I mean content as in content whether it's boys movies audio short form long form there is a total explosion waiting to happen uh you can see today the phenomenon of insta reels or short shorts and all of that is really people are sitting there and making livelihoods out of that despite the fact that the monetization of that content", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-53", "text": "despite the fact that the monetization of that content is a really imbalanced monetization it is all done by Google AdSense or you know or a particular big Tech platform and there is no negotiating leverage yeah I actually think that there is a huge ecosystem of content creators and content economy that is going to be part of the digital economy that is just waiting to take off and that has many adjacent applications like gaming and of course movies and all of that uh and uh and I I think language and translation and creating diversity on the Indian internet and therefore the appetite and demand for diverse content will feed this underlying ecosystem of content creators there's very interesting initiative of Digi yatra as well yeah although it's it links the aadhaar and then the boarding pass just to get the get through the queue so what is this initiative plus also because it will be very important as we see so much of crowd the airport the airport is such a mess right now it's like a", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-54", "text": "airport is such a mess right now it's like a go-to topic so can you just talk us about that and about the security also no look aadhar is a fundamental part of the India stack and the aadhar is an identity authentication piece when people use the phrase link the word is actually a bad word because it's not it's not in it's not a correct word it's incorrect word nobody linking anything to other it is basically authenticating that that identity which is in the other database is really Mr X it is an authentication process so the aadhaar database is a database of identities any other application that sits on it whether it is a fintech application UPI or it is Digi yatra or health or education this verification is basically saying this person with this Photograph and this biometric claims to be Smitha prakash is it it's like Social Security in America it just says yes that's it there's no there's no linkage in that sense so data is not getting transferred from other to say Airport Authority no no", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-55", "text": "getting transferred from other to say Airport Authority no no no it is just a yes no question okay is that answered and eventually it will be basically Biometrics it will not you know currently a lot of people use other cards eventually the idea is that no there will be no card because cards are you know reproducible and all that and authentication so it will just be if you want access control to an airport or go through security line or a PDA Center or whatever you just go there and do your fingerprint or your biometric and you can and that's it it'll just say uh Smitha prakash or whoever is it this this is uh you have taken so many quintals of rice from the PDS scheme this is your balance and this is what you're entitled to so that is where we are going so the fundamental layer the basic layer of the India stack is this identity authentication layer which is service by empowered by other right so there's no threat as such you know for example uh recently had gone to", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-56", "text": "such you know for example uh recently had gone to the US and it was the first time that even though they've had Biometrics it was the first time that I stood in front of the camera it got my eyes and they didn't stamp my passport they didn't even look at my Visa because it's already arrived out there they knew when was the last time that I've gone there there all that information is already there right right so it was just welcome to the US it felt so good yes there were lines believe me because getting to the points but that is it there is no and where is your boarding card where which was the last Port of Entry no questions asked because all that information has already arrived so if we can get to that point in our but that is the digi yatra and frankly it is not done by Armin she's done by the civilization Ministry but I have studied it a little bit is the first step to that towards that okay which is that it basically I just", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-57", "text": "that okay which is that it basically I just want to explain what the India stack is as the prime minister's envisaged it there is an identity layer identity authentication layer and there is this Finance fintech layer the payment layer which is UPI and then on top of it there will be different layers Digi yatra for travel air Passengers The Rail rail ministry will come up with something that sits in on the same platform Health skill education that is the India stack so typically how it will work is going forward is that you book a ticket and you can say I am now the ticket will know you're flying on so and so on today and then they'll say Digi yatra do you want to enable your ticket Digi yatra enabled it will authenticate your identity and then as you go to the airport all you do is you put down your Biometrics and it will read back from the digi yatra app in which you have enrolled that you are authorized to travel and so on so today this is your ticket this is", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-58", "text": "so on so today this is your ticket this is your identity as authenticated by uida so there is a narrative which is going on all across the world that artificial intelligence versus the jobs uh it will threaten the jobs the human jobs uh how do you look at it what is your take on it no look digitization in general and AI in particular is is changing the nature of the workforce it is it is altering how the workforce is set up uh so the narrative is not about job loss as much as the the new skills that are required for the new jobs the digital in particular and AI in in AI also is not reducing the number of opportunities it is creating newer and newer opportunity but they require different types of skills so if you are skilled for let us say uh working in a manufacturing operation digitization and Industry 4.0 means that you need a certain set of different skills to continue to be in manufacturing if you were just a foreman of a lathe and you", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-59", "text": "were just a foreman of a lathe and you continue to have only those qualifications you will find yourself challenged by the new opportunity so I say again that digitization and AI represent not a challenge in terms of job loss but it certainly represents a challenge in terms of reskilling and upskilling we were talking about skill development and Entrepreneurship now there's there's a lot of questions which are being asked that are our traditional classrooms equipped to produce because there are jobs which are coming up which you said but are either traditional classroom equipped and bringing out students who are equipped with that kind of information for those jobs which are being created these are going to be created so I want to just share my views on it and I'm you know just for 16 months into this uh and uh our uh the the workforce is in India is a very complex works for because we have what is called the formal Workforce which is a very small part of the overall Workforce and then we have the largest", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-60", "text": "the overall Workforce and then we have the largest pieces what are called we call the informal Workforce which covers Agriculture and all the other a large part of the informal Workforce is unskilled and if you look at it for example if you look at traditionally from 2011 onwards over about 1.6 crore 15 year olds joined the workforce unskilled every year 1.6 crores that is the nature the size of our challenge yeah so and then on top of it you have an opening a base of about 290 million that is 29 crore in the workforce who are unskilled this is I'm using census 2011 and nsso service okay in that in that in the region so imagine 30 crore in the informal Workforce are unskilled and every year 1.6 crore children joined the workforce unskilled okay nature of what 75 years or 70 years of Independence has created an educational system yeah now the Prime Minister did two things which are trying to urgently solve the problem what does he launch skill India", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-61", "text": "urgently solve the problem what does he launch skill India mission put a lot of money behind it which is to say this opening stock of 29 crore in the workforce 15 to 35 how can we 15 to 45 how can we give them skills and those who are already in the workforce how can we give them certificates at least so that they can get better salaries because they have a certificate because a lot of people have skills job oriented yes job oriented but they have no formal recognition skills so we ran a program and continue to run a program called RPL this is a recognition of Prior learning it is in a way of formalization of your informal skills example like for example let us say you are uh you are you work in the highway construction space and you have been a construction worker for several years but you have no formal certification and when somebody when you go to a job or somebody offers you a job you have nothing to say accepting to say in many cases so this is a way", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-62", "text": "to say in many cases so this is a way of formally recognizing those and giving them a sense of Pride and ownership that what I have slaved for or worked for for so many years I have a formal recognition of that skill okay and that is really given a lot of people we have we've done an impact assessment of that in the RPL salary progression and upward job Mobility has been triggered by that certification so that is one that we have take we have done but the numbers and what we are able to deliver the still is a big gap I can imagine yes so the Prime Minister has done two one one more initiative which is the National Education policy now people don't intuitively understand how does this head deal with skilled and unskilled but like I said 15 year olds are joining dropping out of school and joining the workforce every year to the extent of 1.6 crores so he has now integrated Skilling into the curriculum of schools okay in the National Education policy which means", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-63", "text": "of schools okay in the National Education policy which means from six standard onwards a child who otherwise only had a single trajectory for growth which is I do uh school I do 10th I do 12th and then if my parents can afford it I go to college or if my grades were good I go to college now from sixth standard on whether the child has an alternate career track skill 6 standard seven standard eight standard nine standard 10 standard you develop some skills in school assume worst case you drop out of school at the age of 15. you still have a skill okay okay so you no longer are unskilled and entering into the workforce as you jump out of school as well so that 1.6 crore number gets severely reduced significantly reduce in terms of incremental unskilled students entering the workforce because of the National Education policy so this is one we've addressed that problem by Skilling in the school the second was how do we create a larger Network to deliver more skills to more students so two things", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-64", "text": "to deliver more skills to more students so two things have been done one of the number of skill programs have soundly gone up from two thousand to five thousand four hundred all the way from AI programming coding carpentry Plumbing it has gone the entire spectrum of skills so modern age white collar skills Modern Age Blue Collar skills and instead of depending only on the skill India network of pmk jss ITI now we are allowing universities and colleges to also run certification programs okay so student now and you have enough trainers to do that no so therefore good question that is going to be the challenge like if you suddenly expand the network where you will deliver Skilling who are the people who are going to be giving the Skilling training but the nature of the new age Skilling programs means that a current teacher or current Professor with a slightly incremental program can also do that okay so it is also giving a teacher in a school or a teacher in a university or a college the opportunity to", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-65", "text": "in a university or a college the opportunity to do beyond what he or she was doing as only teaching physics you can now teach physics and coding or physics and computer repair or Hardware repair okay so it is also creating opportunities for teachers and teaching staff in schools and colleges to do more than what they are doing in school and colleges you know there was a you were talking about gaming platforms and at that time I wanted to ask you but then we deviated into other topics um you know recently uh again it's about compliance and punitive action recently uh this Shada murder case came into focus and uh her father spoke about dating apps and said that you know dating apps need to be moderated and then there are some state governments who are saying that this is causing disruption in our society because again that's another like the gaming thing like the others they they are not they don't come under any regulation and it's causing disruption in society what happens now", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-66", "text": "causing disruption in society what happens now is this the digital India act that we are going to we are talking about today and we will do consultation effectively we'll classify the internet into various types of intermediaries all intermediaries fall into that one type the internet is evolving there are e-commerce there are social media there are dating apps there are uh um you know fact checking apps there are digital media apps all of these will be classified as different categories of intermediaries and rules and regulations will be specified for each type okay again the basic principles around which these rules have been going to be built are safety and Trust so if a dating app allows without due diligence a criminal or a person with a known history of uh predating on the app and that person does predict and cause harm to a particular person or a woman or a girl the app is liable Apple reliable okay so if you see what is happening we are going from a world on internet where none of these platforms had any", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-67", "text": "world on internet where none of these platforms had any sense of accountability no responsibility they hid behind section 79 or section 230 in the U.S to one where very transparently we will create a framework of accountability it is not to make things difficult for them it is basically to make things safer for the users okay there will be a behavioral change there will be a transition it will not be business as usual and there will be a little bit of whining griping complaining moaning groaning all that will happen but we believe our Nazar as you if you want to call that is laser sharp focused on the well-being of our citizen the individual and if it's a cause if it's a if it's an if it's a choice between the that and creating some complexity in the way platforms do business in India we would choose this latter without a without any hesitation but we think we will evolve this without creating too much of Burden compliance burden too much of difficulty for the platform it is", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-68", "text": "burden too much of difficulty for the platform it is for them to just basically wake up to this reality that look we have an obligation to the users of India we have an obligation to the digital address and the government insists that those obligations be fulfilled will there be a foundation on these interviews to respond to the queries because even the police tried to approach the dating app so will there be any boundation or any timeline 100 yeah what we have done in the it rules is that only in May 2021 we said you should appoint a grievance officer so then all of them appointed grievance officers some did not then we prodded them they appointed it a lot of them appointed post box numbers and some ciphers and some and so their response was that grievances will give a response now we have said that is not what we want if you want us to spell out in letter and chapter and verse what the grievance officer has to do we will do that but better", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-69", "text": "officer has to do we will do that but better still we will create an appellate committee that will be a disincentive for you not to do your job can't fudge then yeah you can't fudge and you can't sleep on the job yeah the the whole idea of creating grievance officer is that you have an obligation to hear the grievance of an Indian Citizen and address it now if you say no I have appointed a grievance officer but I will then discuss just a poster they will just play the fiddle and then on Sundays uh play the piano and then that's the extent of my responsibility then I said no fine we will create a grievance committee they complain during a consultation I said look the government is not interested in sitting here and looking as you said at volumes of complaints that are going to come from hundreds and millions of consumers you are forcing us to do this and think of the GAC as an absolute message of disincentive for", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-70", "text": "GAC as an absolute message of disincentive for you to not walk away from your responsibility to the Indian citizen as a platform as a platform in this G20 as India has taken away and uh there's a very big digitization push and world has acknowledged it so how do you think India will have that image of of the digitalization and how it will impart it to them yeah we saw some of them saying that we made payment through uh Google pay handicrafts I know I'm a minister in the government and it it is my job to uh be sort of evangelizing what we've achieved but I want to tell you this the world is looking at India post covet very differently what we have achieved in covet through the power of our technology enablement that the Prime Minister his foresight from 14 to 19 the stuff that the government of India did and that has really helped us distinguish ourselves so differently from every other country in the covert time people really want to associate with India", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-71", "text": "the covert time people really want to associate with India that coven app that itself was an all that is just it stands on the India stack yeah the aadhar the UPI and then applications of coven um all of this so I can assure you that there is nothing that we have to do it is really an organic recognition by the world's Nation about the power of technology to transform people's lives during such a situation as covet all the countries the world had to deal with the same emergency look at how we are post covered and look at where China is in in covet look at where the Americans are post covet look at where the British and the Western Europeans are so I think everybody today vaccination certificates in purchase exactly right you know I mean and they don't even carry it because it's a purchase yeah and I will tell you that for example and I I don't want to double the name a young lady minister of an African country met me recently flew all the way to Bangalore", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-72", "text": "met me recently flew all the way to Bangalore to meet me give me quite a bit of a chuff that people it's to think of me as that important and said we want to adopt the Indian stack in our country we want to sign an mou with the government of India and the Prime Minister has been absolutely gracious we will share our Technologies our learnings our know-hows and our expertise with the world's countries so that countries that can't afford to do this the Americans can afford to do it the Europeans can afford to do it but there are the global South there are a whole bunch of countries who would love to learn from India imbibe embed the same type of Technology platforms for their governance to improve the lot of their people and G20 is going to clearly be an occasion for the world's Nations to engage with India and take this learning and implement it in their countries there's an electronic manufacturing also there is a push what do you have to say and what do you", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-73", "text": "what do you have to say and what do you think uh how how far we have reached and that's also your ministry right 300 billion dollars by 20 25 26 and 120 billion dollars in export during that period so you know uh when I I have been 16 years 16 months as a minister and I visited about 40 colleges for the universities one of the highlights of uh of being a minister that I get to travel and meet the students and a question is always posed how do you summarize the last seven years I mean you know it is my job obviously to say ah seven years are better than the last video and I use examples that are just real examples in 2014 when Narendra Modi became prime minister we had no electronics Industry in this country 10 years of UPA the last decade had completely finished off Electronics in this country and we were importing 92 percent of all mobile phones consumed in India in 2014 were imported bought okay and it was beginning to become almost", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-74", "text": "bought okay and it was beginning to become almost comparable import Bill to petroleum Electronics was in 2022 97 percent of the mobile phones consumed in India Are Made in India in 2014 we didn't export nothing and in 2022 we are exporting 75 000 crores of Apple phones and Samsung phones and other phones including the Chinese Brands four days ago there was a story in the times of India front page that they are exporting from India now yeah so and why that is important is before covid Electronics was dominated by China it is the second largest traded commodity in the world 1.5 trillion dollars is the size of the electronics Market Global Electronics market and 65 70 of the hundred was dominated for China yeah post covered the supply chain issues have come in yeah no postcode the world says we want to diversify that supply chain we cannot uh don't we cannot we don't want the concentration yeah and we want to look at other countries Janet Yellen talked about French Shoring recently India friend showing", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-75", "text": "talked about French Shoring recently India friend showing and also ethical production of these exactly trusted so The Honorable prime minister said in February of 2022 that India wants to be a trusted player in the global Supply chains for electronics and that is what we are doing today so we have a target of 300 billion dollars by 2526 we are already at 75 billion we were 0 in 14 just to give you a context between 2014 and 2025-26 we will do it 10 times growth in production so that is you know I'm going to move a little bit more towards you know some of the officials that we meet with uh Mr Chandra shekhar as uh as journalists when we meet them they say that like what you've been talking right now these are my goals it's like you have a spreadsheet in front of you so the officials say that ever since these technocrats have come in into into the cabinet we are functioning like an MNC government of India is functioning like an MNC where we have", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-76", "text": "India is functioning like an MNC where we have goals targets and things like that people like you Mr Jay Shankar all of you who have been brought in is somewhat like the Singapore model uh and everybody knows that Mr Modi did get impacted by you know reading up on Lee Kuan Yew and uh and his model of housing he brought in you know modernization of Singapore so tell me is this what happens no no I I I think they're very wrong in characterizing it that way because I I think the I mean I have I can't claim to have worked with the Prime Minister for decades or years but I certainly have been uh Observer of his work since 2012. and he has always talked about governance with an outcome I mean even I when I had a few occasions to meet him as Chief Minister Gujarat he never talked about policy in the absence of a clearly understood outcome so he was always looking at policy and laws as a means to an end and the", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-77", "text": "and laws as a means to an end and the end was that there will be some developmental impact a progress impact Prosperity impact at the other side of the policy so I think this has been going on for a long time this is really what distinguishes his governance style from the other hundreds of others Chief ministers who have come before him Prime Ministers who have come before him that he is very laser focused on what he wants to achieve out of that particular policy or that Ministry or that or that scheme uh digital India he did that in 2014 I recently said to him when I for the first time I was on a dice with him and I was happy to speak about digital India and I said I was in the audience when you announced digital India 2015 and I listen to that and I with great healthy skepticism and mujib I said it to him and I I was saying because I was an MP I was uh I'd already spent some six seven years in Parliament and", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-78", "text": "already spent some six seven years in Parliament and I was as cynical as any MP could get but that is his style that is his style that he means governance with some clear really clear outcome for I mean I have worked with many bright people in my life it is one of the good fortunes of having worked in the valley and it is a pleasure to work with him because he is very clear about what he wants to achieve there is no ambiguity so when he says technology he doesn't say technology must create billionaires he's a technology must change the lives of our citizens that is his primary objective of digital India that it must transform the lives of our citizens it was improved governance it was improved democracy and I say this everywhere that India's story pre-2014 was a story of dysfunctional government and the famous Rajiv Gandhi quote that 15 passe only of every 100 paise that leaves Delhi reaches the citizen was taken as a given for India and today to", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-79", "text": "was taken as a given for India and today to have the turn 180 degrees on its head where 100 peso reaches 100 all the hundred percent reaches is the power of technology and that is what his foresight was so I don't think it is Rajiv chandrashekhar or Jai Shankar and bureaucrat say I think he his expectation from government as a as an entity individual members and government whether they are minister or a bureaucrat remains same consistent unrelenting sharp demanding urgent Speedy corruption free all of that regardless of whether it is Mr Jai Shankar or X or Y or z i i this is my view and I don't I'm not embellishing it this is how I've experienced it you were talking about the skepticism when you were sitting in the audience and that is perhaps uh what categorizes most people your generation my channel shiny but either you know when we did our school in college like you you went to the US you worked on that Pentium processor right", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-80", "text": "the US you worked on that Pentium processor right tell me about that what was when you went abroad to Israel like I'm done with India I'm done with that what was that and then why did you come back no no look it's it's not done with India as much as I say this to students today that you live in such exciting time because you live in India full of opportunity if you are an engineering student or you're a ba physics or a BSC physics or a ba history you can look at your life post your college and think of you just have to choose which area you want to go on which direction you want to go in when we were in school in college what are the opportunities you got a good engineering degree then you look at uh getting some connection and getting a becoming a trainee in tatas training and brillas there were some half a dozen private sector companies that you would go and try and do it even for that you needed some Chacha Mama to recommend you otherwise you", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-81", "text": "needed some Chacha Mama to recommend you otherwise you go join government or in my case I would have looked at fauji as a career because you were because but I had glasses and I wanted to be a flyer and I could not be a flyer and I had no interest in being an infantry soldier with glasses so that was so going abroad wasn't so much of I don't like India it is it is really that was the only opportunity and I've I've worked in uh I worked for six months in a the original software startup called Soft Tech in uh over greater kailash Chinese restaurant I remember I worked there for six months and my father said no you I want you to go abroad I did I had no interest in going abroad and I sold pumps for run backs for uh for a pump company called best in Crompton I had a motorcycle and I used to go to dorala Sugar Mills for two months I used to go on a motorcycle and uh to dorala and", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-82", "text": "go on a motorcycle and uh to dorala and sell sugar give quotations for sugar pump so I've done all that okay but my parents wanted me to go abroad because they thought that real opportunity for coding because I I had become a big prolific computer programmer I I loved computer science and I remember my father after 30 years of service had a total Savings of eight lakh rupees in his account and he took out all that and gave me a check in dollars and said go to the US and I went with that and of course I never used it but that is uh that it was not really like a thing that people did because it was an opportunity they did it because there were limited opportunities in India and that is really the big difference between the young Indian today versus Our Generation so you went with you went with worked with vinodham and you know those were huge opportunities why did you come back look when you are I I was a success I did very well at", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-83", "text": "I I was a success I did very well at Intel I was recognized I had got some options I had made money I had in my life I had a small book that I used to maintain in terms of life goals and my goal was by the age of 35 that I should make 30 10 lakhs Rupees because my father's savings over eight lakhs and for me my life's a mission was to make two lakhs more than him in a slightly shorter time frame but fortunately but way ahead of that schedule by the age of uh 26 I had made much more money and I came back to India and Rajesh pilate who used to be a minister of Telecom those days was a student of my father's in the Air Force so my father very proudly wanted to show off his son to Rajesh pilot brought me to Delhi and I remember in the house that house of Rajesh pilot he sat me down in that big lawn and saluted my father and I was very impressed with", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-84", "text": "saluted my father and I was very impressed with him and I remained a big fan of his till he tragically passed away uh he said why are you in the U.S why don't you come you're opening up cellular and I didn't know anything about cellular he was minister of State for home right no no he that he became later he was minister of State for communication okay and uh he said why don't you uh we are opening up and this is the Great India and why didn't you try it and I was entitled to a sabbatical in Intel so I said okay let me take a two-year leave of absence and I will try it out and the actual Epiphany for me was when I was in guruvayur Kerala it is rainy season and I had just got married I actually come to India to do that bright searching thing you know which is what nris did those days right unbelievable yeah it is unbelievable when I say that story to my children today they think it's", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-85", "text": "say that story to my children today they think it's unbelievable but that's I did it anyway so and you know and okay no no regrets uh uh I don't want my wife to think that did she bring that tray of a chai and play the tanpura since we met in in the U.S it was I think a bottle of soda water so anyway but I remember the Epiphany was when I was in in guruvayur in a rainy season and those days you can only make long distance calls through trunk trunk yeah oh God and I had to set up an appointment for my green card in the U.S embassy here in Delhi and I called and they said trunk call will take three hours and I said okay and I could barely hear the embassy in the lightning call then I realized that what Rajesh pirate was talking about cellular yeah it was obviously something that this country required and that is how I stayed back okay yeah and I had no regrets no no no", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-86", "text": "okay yeah and I had no regrets no no no no of course not no no I I don't regret any of the interests and turns in my life in uh why politics that's one question because you had made such a success of your life in the private sector you you know media Baron and everything I don't even want to go into the list I'm sure our viewers I read uh listeners will Google you as soon as they area why politics no look I I do this I think it's one of those genetic defects in me that I when I see opportunities I just jump at it and grab it uh 2006 was an unusual situation in Karnataka where the government had been formed between BJP and Kumar Swami JDS for the first time ever and the fourth rajya Sabha seat was a seat that could only be one if the BJP and JDS together put up a candidate on a Sunday afternoon where I was sitting at home and I just finished Biryani and I had I", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-87", "text": "and I just finished Biryani and I had I was uh we had sold my company BPL mobile and I was just spending some time trying to ReDiscover myself or whatever it was and somebody came to my house a friend of mine and said I am going to meet Deva Goda whom I had never met by the way said why don't you come along and because the movie that I was watching uh and I was I used to watch Malayalam movies on Asianet uh on Sundays because that movie was not interesting I said okay fine let me come along he was recuperating in a hospital in the Jindal uh in the Jindal clinic and he looked at me I met him for first time and he said what do you do I said I do nothing he said have you ever I do nothing I had I just got out of Telecom and so he said why don't you join uh politics have you thought about politics so I said look I've I've thought of politicism during utilities time I had", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-88", "text": "I've thought of politicism during utilities time I had running battles with promoji and Arun chori I was the cellular person and I I know politics I've dealt with politics I've never thought of a career in politics he said no there's this fourth seat and uh and if you are interested you should talk to the BJP so and my very close friend and colleague was anant kumarji who from kannada great brother and a great mentor and we went back a long way so I and a lock went to his house from there and I said uh Anand kumarji this idea has come what do you think and he was of course a great well Wisher of mine he said no you should and then I caught a flight the next day came and met came to Delhi and met advani and said look this idea has been put in my head what do you think and I knew advani from the atal G's time the government time and they say so you should try it and then it sort of", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-89", "text": "so you should try it and then it sort of became a reality and I got in and I thought it's going to be just one term but then I immediately very early on then let the 2G scam uh Revelation and because I understood Telecom and I was the one who let that and then the term got over and then I was offered a second term and then of course I decided that this is why I want to do this full-time and I I got out of all my businesses and exited all the CNA I've I've been on this full time for now I think from 2000 almost 14. yeah you know you've you uh are very vocal on uh National Security matters and also on the welfare of veterans yes you've talked a lot about that now the recent uh loss electoral loss in Himachal firstly congratulations on the victory in Gujarat that has been fabulous for your party absolutely now uh but of course being a journalist I'm going to talk about the", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-90", "text": "being a journalist I'm going to talk about the losses request so uh the Himachal laws many were saying that it's probably because uh people in Himachal Pradesh were not did not bind into the agneepath scheme that's why the problem occurred because Himachal sends you know I I think I don't have the exact figures but uh there are like some uh 2 lakhs or something of uh uh people 2.8 lakh people from Himachal Pradesh who are in the armed forces currently sure so you know they are not too happy with the agneepath scheme because they feel so many of them you even when you drive in Himachal Pradesh you'll notice people exercising all over them wanting to get in into the the forge and they feel up so there is there is still not that faith in the agneepath scheme and that anger translated into you know negative voting no so there are two separate questions you're asking one is the cause of the defeat and yes that is of course beyond my", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-91", "text": "defeat and yes that is of course beyond my pay scale and I I really don't no I haven't studied it but it's too close a contest to basically say that there was any mandate against the BJP many things could go wrong I have been involved in elections for several years and in several States never in Himachal so I think we will wait for the analysis before we come to a conclusion of what caused that defeat was it internally our weakness because every time we any time we lose to the Congress or if we ever lose it to the Congress I feel that it is to do with us doing something wrong rather than anybody in his right mind wanting to okay there's a lot of analysis on that also that the BJP defeats the BJP yeah so anyway so that's a separate uh podcast and we'll discuss that separately okay but on the issue of agneepath and I I say this with seriousness it is a very powerful and a very good thing for the", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-92", "text": "a very powerful and a very good thing for the future of our armed forces and the future of Indian youth uh unfortunately as with the farm bill we have allowed some of the fake narratives or the not so true narratives of this to get ahead of the actual Narrative of agneepath what does agneepath do agneepath basically says for a lot of youngsters who want to pursue a full-time career in the armed forces there is no change but there are a lot of youngsters whom I have met also by the way who say no we want a short-term association with the armed forces and then we want to come out and continue to do what we want to do startups agriculture whatever it creates an opportunity for them it does not change in any way the number of people who go to the Armed Forces it does not change in any way the size of the arm force and therefore the absorption of people into the permanent Corridor of the Armed Forces is not going to reduce by any stretch", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-93", "text": "Forces is not going to reduce by any stretch of imagination so uh but if you feel communication may be possible or inadequate but a big narrative fake narrative has gotten ahead of the true narrative uh sometimes we it is not unusual for us to believe that if you do good that the goodness of it will create a momentum but like I said to you that there is enough evidence that a fake narrative has the ability to gather steam faster and reach a larger Audience by which time the the true narrative takes it's an uphill task for them to dismantle that so and I think agneepath is 100 about that it is a powerful modern uh way for our Armed Forces to be modernized made younger over the next five years ten years time it does not change in any which way the composition or the abilities for people who want permanent careers in the armed forces does not restrict that in any way but it creates an additional element moment of short term people want to come", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-94", "text": "additional element moment of short term people want to come in and then want to not do the Armed Forces for the rest of their life and want to do something else it's also an extension of what you were talking about in skill development because they are equipped now with new skills absolutely which they can use in the privacy but I have met youngsters I have met so many students who say we don't want to do this full time we don't want to join the armed forces as a career we want to serve our nation for three years five years and then we want to go and do our thing right because there are so many other opportunities for example what could be some of the things that they could do after this I mean you can come in do a three-year shot so you know the old days of short Service Commission the same way if you are a fighting Soldier or an Airman you come and do a short-term get the skills and go out there and either become an entrepreneur become the Drone", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-95", "text": "and either become an entrepreneur become the Drone pilot drone pilot go to start a business go go uh Jobs go to pursue higher education uh my father came into the air force as an Airman as an Airman and he worked his way up and became officer became a flyer and and it was a struggle yeah this allows or somebody to get skills and become go out there make some money in those three years four years go get free education and absolutely qualitatively change his career trajectory uh instead of remaining an Airman all his life for him remaining a soldier all his life so I think that narrative didn't go out there powerfully enough or if it did it was in a sense preempted by the fake narrative which is not really not at all the idea of the agneepath and by the way all modern fighting combat forces the US every other Force has adapted to this and use this as a way of creating a core Army and having the volunteer Force the short term Force", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-96", "text": "Army and having the volunteer Force the short term Force come in and then pursues the same narrative also was that you're creating one a mercenary Army not totally committed uh and two uh an incompletely trained officer or an incomplete Soldier no look this is some some of these retired uh I know confused generals and the purists the actual you know hardcore and and they you know I have great respect for them but I think they fail to understand that you can be a committed Soldier without having to be for the rest of your life a soldier yeah okay and I think that is the basic thing that they they haven't picked up or they don't want to pick up or they don't want to acknowledge the Indian youth is a is a patriotic young person and given the tools given given the opportunity to serve the country he wants to do it she wants to do it and we must create opportunities for them to do it and by the way the quality of our society all of", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-97", "text": "by the way the quality of our society all of the other Downstream impact of having people who have gone through service to the nation and then coming into the civilian life as a tremendous other benefits to Society at large imagine if you have more and more uh people in the police more and more people in civil Administration who come after having seen up close and Center experiencing what national service is about and take those ethos and values into government in general in bureaucracy in administration which you brought I mean before I wrap up I'm going to ask you two questions one is about your life also because what you were talking about you've also lived in cantonments you bring about that in your in your commitment towards uh you know your nationalism or your when you talk about veterans I see that when you speak about it tell me a little bit about your life no I I don't want to make it sound like a fairy tale or any of that but you know I have grown up", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-98", "text": "any of that but you know I have grown up around men and women uh men in uniform and their families all my life life I mean all my young life Youth Life shaped the time the Life part of the life Which shapes your thinking and I have seen them only interested in in a sense Mission India they never talked about anything other than that and I have played badminton as a youngster on a badminton court with a fighter pilot to find two days later that he died in a crash so these are people you know real people and real lives that I've experienced and their entire Common Thread amongst all of them and their families was that they were there for a cause and they were putting all this effort putting their lives on the line because they believed in this cause and that cause was Mother India the the country that they served so that has you know as much as you think that it becomes intrinsic to you it becomes in your DNA it becomes in your people don't", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-99", "text": "in your DNA it becomes in your people don't get it sometimes people think that it's an it is an act people think it's you're putting on is ultra patriotism all of that you say but you know this is part of the DNA of most 4G kids even today my dad at the age of 84 goes off to the National war memorial he had to hold him down and he goes and sits you know his high point in his years calendar is when he goes off and snaps a salute at the memorial so those things do leave an indelible sort of a mark in your let's say the who you are and I'm glad that it has in my case I'm very glad that it has could that be a reason why you move towards national service and again I say I have said this publicly for me the fact that I couldn't serve my nation in uniform uh in a sense I I think I'm compensating by serving in public life now and I I seriously consider this", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-100", "text": "in public life now and I I seriously consider this as a mission to serve uh I don't see this as uh I don't see Politics as power or influence and all of that and I that is why I really believe in the the way honorable prime minister talks about public life about sevak about this is public service rather than I am the more powerful minister or you are the less powerful or all of that so I think that comes from my own background of being around people who sought Duty as a calling and I think this is a calling for me I'm going to wrap up with Karnataka my home state and you are from you're an MP from Karnataka tell me where are we in politics in Karnataka because it seems that both the Congress and the BJP both of them are on a weak Wicket and it serves either party's purpose I don't know that it's so fragmented the leadership yeah no I think look there is it's it's close to election time and there will", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-101", "text": "it's it's close to election time and there will be noise and chatter and all of that that's par for the course but uh under the CM he's a new CM he is just his uh he's in a sense been put into the deep end of the pool uh a year or so ago we have established that administratively from a point of view of governance we are leaving a mark We are following the prime minister's footsteps and the large-scale delivery of government of India schemes without discrimination without fear or favor across the landscape of citizens of Karnataka is really what we are going to go back to the people and seek another mandate which you did in Gujarat you did in uh voters those who have benefited from government beneficiaries of good governance I call it that finally the relationship between a citizen and a government is that of how I benefited from that but in Karnataka is it there because there's a lot that people say that the corruption is so phenomenal in Karnataka", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-102", "text": "that the corruption is so phenomenal in Karnataka that it doesn't the LA bhartis aren't so many no no no no that's not correct at all and I mean in every scheme whether it's PM I use PM hours all of those schemes Karnataka is way ahead in terms of getting those schemes delivered to the citizens look this story of corruption is a legacy story in Karnataka because there are too many years and Decades of politicians turn entrepreneurs turn real estate that is that dot the landscape of Karnataka politics but that is not something that was created in the last four years that was created over several decades of certain type of politics that was practiced by the Congress and their other acolytes that has to change that will change it is changing and under prime minister Narendra Modi ji is BJP that will that will change and this is we are in the process of changing nobody is claiming today that the Karnataka is totally cleaned of all these sins of KJ George", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "c6fb0aca989e-103", "text": "cleaned of all these sins of KJ George and sidramaya and DK shiv Kumar but we are making clearly an effort people understand that that change is underway and that is the Mandate that we are going to seek again from them for the next five years right thank you so much I think I've taken a lot of your time thank you most grateful that you could come here and speak to us about a whole range of issues so we hope to have you soon as soon as the Karnataka elections are done thank you thank you for having me thanks thank you thank you for watching or listening in to this edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash to like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste thank you [Music]", "source": "h082RyHEA30"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-0", "text": "so the Prime Minister said we want to take diplomacy to the people International conferences were something remote that happened at certain rarified quotas and mainly in Delhi but for the first time you have an opportunity to take G20 meetings down to you know District levels down to um cities that have not been exposed internationally exposed so far foreign policy has never been fully insulated from from domestic politics because you know when you deal with your neighbors it always impacts on on our states uh you know around for example if you deal with Nepal Bihar and up are always impacted countries can weaponize those aspects of trade that they feel gives them an advantage our Point always has been that weaponization of essential um you know parts of Supply chains is is not conducive to overall international trade and so we've been working with many of our partners to ensure a sustainable uh resilient supply chain system what you're saying is that in imports from Russia is also important for our own Imports Russian oil oil", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-1", "text": "is also important for our own Imports Russian oil oil we're an energy dependent country we import 75 to 80 percent of our energy needs we need to ensure that we provide for our people uh you know the best possible options the neighborhood first policy has been one of our Stellar successes investments in our neighborhoods were lines of credit grants in Aid focus on connectivity on building infrastructure has yielded tremendous results So for anybody who's uh you know an aspirant for the upsc exam thinking of what he should do I think the Foreign Service is a great career it's absolutely one of the best most satisfying careers that anyone can have Namaste Jai Hind welcome to another edition of a i podcast with Smitha prakash India formally assumed the presidency of the G20 or the group of 20 developed and developing nations in November 2022. it will last for a period of one year and this one year is packed with events and several heads of states and governments visiting India is this just", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-2", "text": "of states and governments visiting India is this just a talking Forum can the powerful group find solutions to Global issues so today our guest is harshvardhan shringla the chief coordinator for India's G20 presidency in 2023 he's previously served as foreign Secretary of India ambassador to USA High Commissioner to Bangladesh and ambassador to Thailand Mr shingler thank you so much for coming on the Ani podcast we are very keen to know about G20 or the man in the hot seat and I have with me my brahmastra Naveen Kapoor who who covers the mea Ministry of external Affairs so he has a couple of questions too for our viewers and our listeners you know those who don't understand the term Beach journalism many times I've been asked what is this that you talk about what is beat journalism so beat is basically what editors assigned report voters to certain sections for example somebody is assigned to do a BJP or somebody's assigned Congress so you become a BJP", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-3", "text": "somebody's assigned Congress so you become a BJP Beach reporter or a congress beat reporter sometimes you're assign National Security so National Security at times is overlapping so you can do National Security and you can do the foreign Ministry you can do if you're doing Air Force Army Navy you can even do the paramilitary forces now who are the people who are assigned to this so sometimes what used to happen is that if you had a background in say international relations or you came from a family of 4GS editors generally position those reporters uh on the defense Ministry beat why because those reporters knew at least they wouldn't call a major general as a major something very basic so uh when it comes to foreign policy beat when you know when I got into journalism there wasn't even a subject called international relations in our bachelor's degree so we started off like that and Naveen also has done a little bit of Ministry of General Affairs so we both have done a little bit of beach journalism Naveen", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-4", "text": "done a little bit of beach journalism Naveen continues to do the ministry of external Affairs so his questions will be more sharper as compared to my questions so that was just a brief explainer sir uh so our questions uh will be basically on G20 if you could just explain to us what is this grouping why is there so much of excitement about India taking over the presidency of the G20 first of all thank you for having me on your show and it's great to see our friend Naveen also join you on this program thank you um well the G20 as your main question is what is the G20 all about it is uh today uh perhaps the most important and most influential International grouping that exists and why is it important is because of its membership it includes countries that are some of the largest economies of the world all the G7 countries are members all brics countries are members you have all the five permanent members the U.N security Council as part of the G20 membership you", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-5", "text": "security Council as part of the G20 membership you also have all the international organizations that actually you know provide the international governance of today's International order the UN the IMF World Bank oecd Financial stability board all of these organizations and some Regional organizations like the African Union asean are part of the normal G20 meetings now the G20 also consists of 85 percent of the world's GDP 75 of international trade and two-thirds of the world's population so that when the G20 takes decisions those are representative decisions that are cut across the board when we say the U.N security Council is not represented representative of today's realities uh we must look to the G20 to see what sort of representation today actually can matter uh countries that today bring weightage to the international uh you know high table countries that can contribute and bring value to to International Affairs are those countries whose voices need to be heard and I think the G20 membership provides for that so today if the G20 takes decisions towards those decisions are implemented", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-6", "text": "G20 takes decisions towards those decisions are implemented across the board the G20 of course is a somewhat disparate grouping ideologically and in terms in geographical terms uh its coverage is wide but it also means that it's not a cohesive grouping but when it takes decisions those decisions are very very uh I would say um easily implemented those become the global norm and I think we've seen some recent decisions for example during covid where the debt service suspension initiatives that allowed developing countries because of covet who could not repay their debts to reschedule uh without any interest there was also the decision of the G20 to tax multinationals so these are decisions that have an impact across the board and decisions that only countries that provide a wide representation in the international body can make so just to put it in context the G20 so India assuming presidency of this it's it's a matter of prestige which we've been all hearing about it so uh what does it entail because what we've heard", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-7", "text": "uh what does it entail because what we've heard is that there'll be meetings 200 meetings across the country in 50 cities and it began on December 1st and it will conclude on November 30th 2023. so my question would be that one of course it's a busy schedule ahead for you but besides that uh how were these cities Chosen and what are these meetings about so you know uh every presidency of the g20s for the for for a period of one year so ours is from first December 2022 till as you mentioned 30th November 2023. now um every presidency conducts a certain number of meetings um and normally there are around 200 meetings that we need to conduct and these are across 45 sectors the G20 is very sectoral so we have meetings in the areas of Public Health digital Transformations energy transitions uh trade and investment so different sectors have different meetings and not one but two or three meetings until it reaches a ministerial level and then the summit level um all", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-8", "text": "ministerial level and then the summit level um all meetings ultimately end up in the summit which is the uh you know final part of any presidency and it is at the summit that you have a declaration of the outcome which represents the work of your entire year of your presidency uh there are also engagement groups which are non-governmental groups which are very important you have women's 20 youth 20 Urban 20 I think 20 civil 20 these and business 20 for example these are important groups because they bring together um you know different organizations that work on these areas and their inputs also come in and are considered right at the summit level so every aspect of the G20 is important but as you can see it is very comprehensive it cuts across sectors and there's a fairly large amount of organizational responsibility that every presidency undertakes now in our case the Prime Minister decided that we would have our 200 meetings across the country he said it is not necessary to confine it to daily he said so", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-9", "text": "not necessary to confine it to daily he said so from that point of view I think we are looking at how we can organize a G20 meetings across our country and I think the idea behind this is to make sure that every state every individual every citizen of India is a stakeholder did Indonesia ended the other countries before that do something similar or is this something new that's being done so it's I think every country is tried to spread it out China had it in 14 locations Indonesia had it in 25 locations but 56 locations is a new record I think it is very difficult to match you have to have a country of the size and and diversity of India also the capacity to be able to hold meetings in so many different parts of our country so I think every part of our country would be covered and I think this is a matter of great pride and satisfaction but more than that every citizen becomes a stakeholder in the G20 presidency yes I've heard of this so could you", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-10", "text": "presidency yes I've heard of this so could you explain this thing to us so G20 presidency is not just at the central government the prime minister has said a number of times it belongs to every citizen of India and the effort is to broad base the G20 message what is our G20 presidency all about bring it to the Grassroots level so that will be done in Jan bhagadhari Jan andolan mode as prime minister says and I think we will it's a mission mode it is a mission mode we will we will use um we will work with with different organizations but we will also use festivals for example we have used already used the festival in Manipur there's a Shanghai Festival there is also a festival in nagaland called the hornbill Festival right there's a festival in Gujarat which is during sakranti which is basically the Kite Festival so you'll move the the delegations to those places or they will arrive there there so essentially it is it is branding of the", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-11", "text": "so essentially it is it is branding of the G20 you know uh getting the message visit 20 across in these festivals especially to younger people for example in the festival in Manipur there was a special G20 Pavilion and there was a G20 selfie booth and our Minister Dr jayashankar himself went there without minister and a lot of younger people came and they took selfies with the minister and essentially the minister spoke to them about what the G20 means so use the opportunity to speak to people recently on the 1st of December we organized an event with 75 universities all across India a virtual event in which 75 universities connected with the G20 Secretariat in Delhi we had the vice chancellors of number of universities participating but we also had two 300 students from daily come to that event it was addressed by external affairs minister it was addressed by principal secretary to the PM um chairman ugc essentially um you know conveying to them what the G20", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-12", "text": "um you know conveying to them what the G20 is all about what our presidency is all about and telling them to be ambassadors C20 ambassadors for their universities yeah but the message gets spread when we used to cover events uh whether it was a nam summit summit any of these Summits which used to happen it was basically delhi-centric and the only interaction or interface was journalists and uh delegates that's about it there was no public participation in such so foreign policy foreign related matters these have not had a you know a public participation as such this seems to be a new trend right so the Prime Minister said we want to take diplomacy to the people and essentially what you have is that you know as you mentioned International conferences were something remote that happened at certain rarified quotas and mainly in Delhi but for the first time you have an opportunity to take G20 meetings down to you know District levels down to um cities that have not been exposed internationally exposed", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-13", "text": "um cities that have not been exposed internationally exposed so far what does it do for us I mean it creates first of all capacity there are so many places where we are building Conference Centers German hangers uh you know widening roads making Public Access better improving cities pushing them up so one is that it gives us the opportunity to improve capacity wherever we are and in different parts of the country it's one thing to do it in Mumbai and Bangalore and Hyderabad but another thing to do it in in remote parts of our country as you said absolutely absolutely uh you know even down to lakshad if we just had any we had an event in Havelock Island in Andaman and nicobar so the point is that you first and for foremost provide International exposure to places that don't normally get it secondly you improve infrastructure and capacity in these these cities thirdly what you do is that you bring the world to these places with this huge coverage in Havelock and there's so much excitement", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-14", "text": "coverage in Havelock and there's so much excitement about Havelock being one of the venues of the G20 so what you try and do is that you know you you expose our tourism potential highlight and showcase our Rich cultural heritage and diversity and of course you also display our achievements development achievements and experiences to the International Community so whichever meeting you have you have a meeting say in tourism you have the top people in tourism from across the world from the most influential countries across the world who will come down uh so if you have it in a place like hampi for example a place like world heritage point or Srinagar you take them to places that uh that have tremendous tourism potential you actually highlight and showcase the tourism potential that you have and here are people who actually um work in this sector who are decision makers in this particular sector and it makes a huge difference to take them to places uh that actually have a tourism potential or worth rather than taking them", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-15", "text": "have a tourism potential or worth rather than taking them to you know bigger cities where it would be run of the mill just another conference now let's get to the naughty points or the not as in KN or TTY the naughty points of uh of the G20 because you know uh there's the Ukrainian War which has not ended there is the covet pandemic related supply chain issues which are there there's China there are several uh knots in this uh in this whole thing so uh how will this group mitigate the problems that the the geopolitical problems that you know that are staring at our face right now so this is a I would say specially difficult period when you look at it from a Global Perspective you've had uh the greatest shock to the International System in the form of the covid-19 pandemic you're barely recovering from the pandemic when you have the Ukraine conflict with its attendant impact on food and energy security you have high inflation low growth and of course", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-16", "text": "security you have high inflation low growth and of course indebtedness of many developing countries ah so it is in this context that you know you the world is looking for Solutions and looking to those countries or those groupings that can actually uh you know lead uh at a time of of this challenging crisis and uh in many senses I think um you know this is India's moment because at the end of the day uh if you look at the global uh you know Global growth um has slowed from six percent in 2021 to 3.2 to one percent in 2022 to 2.7 percent is projected slowdown in 2023 so you know growth globally is coming down many of the big economies have come down to very very low levels of growth almost on the points of recession uh India on the other hand is the fastest growing uh large economy of the world today um we have kept inflation under check our fundamental economic fundamentals are strong uh coming from the covet pandemic we have displayed strong economic", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-17", "text": "the covet pandemic we have displayed strong economic resilience which has been displayed through the Atman Bharat policy that the government has come in but at the same time you know despite the fact that we have focused on domestic uh domestic resilience we have not neglected to work on the international um let's say um you know to contribute to the International Community if you look at the covert crisis we had uh vaccine vaccine my three which which we shared vaccines with the rest of the world uh we we also provided medicines to the rest of the world where the pharmacy of the world um the prime minister at the Saudi Arabian uh Summit uh for covid-19 in 2020 for the first time spoke about uh uh you know uh Global you know human uh human Centric globalization by this he was saying that this is the first time and the G20 has met on an issue which is neither Financial nor economic in nature and that you know countries need to work for the global common", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-18", "text": "you know countries need to work for the global common good um and from that perspective I think um we have certain experiences and certain achievements that have worked for our people whether it's in digital delivery whether it's in public health uh whether it's in climate actions and renewable energy I think those are the areas that we can share with the rest of the world you know when it comes to the environment I think these are areas that we can provide a successful Paradigm which can be replicated across the developing world and the G20 I think if it wants to work for the benefit of mankind of humanity it could well take this opportunity to look at some of these examples we just saw a lot of uh Sherpas in India attending meetings already and most of them are speaking that India they are looking towards India for a solution as you just mentioned problem solving yeah the problem solver do you think we are actually in a position or is just you know you know long talk that whether we will", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-19", "text": "you know you know long talk that whether we will be a problem solution can we provide a solution to the world problems so as I said we have always there are two factors that distinguish uh foreign policy uh under Prime Minister Modi from what was there earlier and from that of other countries I think when you talk about a change a shift in the way a foreign policy has been conducted in the way India is regarded in the rest of the world to my mind there are two issue two factors that have that are absolutely responsible one is your domestic strengths I mean you know a country cannot become a Reasoner or a global uh let's say prominent player without its own domestic house being in order its economy doing well it's people looked after and so on so forth I think that's the most important thing and there again as I said I mean I think we have done very well for ourselves we have a very strong post covet resilient economy we are one of the fastest growing", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-20", "text": "economy we are one of the fastest growing economies in the world but we also have demonstrable experiences in terms of the tools and methods we have used this system reviews to deliver to the most vulnerable sections of our population so in the in the midst of the covet crisis we have supported some 800 million of our people um you know through uh food grain support through other forms of social safety net which I think has been quite remarkable uh even during the covet crisis we have brought in economic reforms and policies that have boosted our economic successes whether it is the pil uh the pli the you know production linked incentives or whether it is gati Shakti massive investments in the infrastructure sector I think we have worked uh consistently even during the most difficult periods to bring about a change in our own uh sort of Economics Ambassador you know there's always been talk that there's been a paradigm shift in our foreign policy you are you mentioned it just now uh you", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-21", "text": "policy you are you mentioned it just now uh you uh were ambassador of India in in the U.S when Mr Modi came into office you did howdy Modi uh and you know there were there were several things that you uh and you were a foreign secretary during this very crucial period when Indian foreign policy morphed in some ways one would say you know from that nehruvian uh era we've moved to a different kind and you were at the cusp you've seen it up close in front how would you say because when you began Service uh you know how would you say that what it was then and what it is now how would you see them well I mean I began service from 40 years ago but even take 10 or 15 years ago um you know India was seen very differently as it has seen today when I was in the United States I had no problems of access to any level you know Senators Governors Business Leaders um um even the White House you would get access wherever you need it and", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-22", "text": "House you would get access wherever you need it and whenever you need it and that's because people had a genuine interest in India and the success of India and prime minister modi's own efforts to boost the relationship with the United States was very well known so whether it was Democrats Republicans it was you know buy parties and support for a strong relationship with India and I think uh you know it was a matter of great pride and satisfaction to me as ambassador of India to the world's uh you know uh richest nation and most in some senses the most powerful nation that we were regarded so well across the board uh we had a very successful Indian diaspora in the United States uh the Prime Minister I think one of the aspects that is important is that he not only had good relations with every president uh fight from President Obama to president Trump and now President Biden successfully has had maintained very strong relations across the board with the U.S he's also reached out to the Indian Community uh", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-23", "text": "he's also reached out to the Indian Community uh across the world uh in general but since we're talking about the US the US in particular in a way that no prime minister has ever done I mean howdy Modi is a one-off event and I think you it'll be rare to see something like that replicated ever again you know 50 000 U.S Nationals of Indian origin uh gathered in a part of the United States with the U.S president and the Indian Prime Minister addressing them walking hand in hand take a round across that Stadium an incredible moment of friendship namity but also a demonstration of the closeness of ties and the strength of the Indian diaspora Trump was an unknown factor for the Indian foreign policy establishment in Indian diplomats didn't know anything about him his team that came in was it a challenge initially to to open uh talks with with an unknown person completely so Trump didn't belong to the what you called the Washington Beltway politics he was an outsider he", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-24", "text": "Washington Beltway politics he was an outsider he didn't believe in doing um things the way it was normally done and so his decision-making methods were different from normal presidency so we had to find out what made him tick what are the factors that what are the inputs that went into his his decision making how could you factor that in and I think that took a bit of time and effort But ultimately uh I think we we did find that there was a way to reach out uh of course there is no better way to reach out than at the top levels but you need to reach out also at different levels of the administration and I think that is something that we managed to find a way to do it took some effort and that is a different story by itself but but I think uh ultimately tell us about that story what were the challenges at that time well I mean look he didn't believe in working through the through his uh his uh let's say White House team in didn't believe in working", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-25", "text": "say White House team in didn't believe in working through his cabinet his Council of ministers I mean they gave him there was this informal channels you had to work through channels which were which he relied on okay and for him it was only family you know it was the family that actually uh mattered and it was a family he listened to we had the Secretary of uh Commerce as secretary defense tell him something he may or may not have listened I mean half the time he thought he knew it better than the others um but but of course uh you know if you were to access a family member and say look this is very important for the relationship please uh you know mention this is the president before we have this important meeting for example that I think I thought really made the difference I think we saw that also when Ivanka Trump came out to India I mean the red carpet that was laid out for her and everybody was like um okay it's never happened before that a family member got", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-26", "text": "it's never happened before that a family member got so much importance but Ivanka was an integral part of his uh is his administration's team Ivanka and Jared Krishna her husband were very major players which were inside the you know White House team that worked on policy initiatives so he's a diplomat you have to you have to be dynamic in how you uh Implement these uh relationships isn't it I mean how you go about it you have to get the work done right and I think it increasingly you uh you know people think that diplomacy is the normal you know receptions diplomatic parties you get to meet people but I think increasingly you have to find a way to work which is outside the box did the Indian diaspora help at this time diaspora is a great help I think the diaspora um is committed to strengthening the relationship they don't hesitate to work with you at any level to support the cause which is their cause as well and I think you know whether it", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-27", "text": "cause as well and I think you know whether it is the diaspora which is uh in New York or within the in the west coast in Silicon Valley or in in in the Texas area I'm saying the diaspora across the United States you could get uh you know reach out to anybody and any grouping and get the sort of support that you need but it's for you uh to uh you know tap that support and to make the best of it and I think we really worked closely with the diaspora in achieving our common objectives in the US sir uh you were talking about the personal uh equation between prime minister and you know various U.S presidents so as a diplomat there is a career Diplomat do you think that this personal chemistry this personal equations with the leaders we see this on the visuals when he's meeting G20 leader do you think prime minister's personal attention towards other leaders matters and it helps and boosts the relationships or is just photo op my personal", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-28", "text": "boosts the relationships or is just photo op my personal view is that that is the deciding factor I see um you know um the United States of course is an executive presidency so decisions are taken uh important decisions are taken at the president's level almost always so that Chemistry Between Your prime minister and the US president is critical in achieving the outcomes that you want to seek in the India us election but whether it is with President macro or prime minister Boris Johnson when he was PM or whether it is uh you know Prime Ministers across the board leadership across the board I think it matters in any country if you if you think of Nepal or you think of Bangladesh or you think of our neighbors or you think beyond our neighbors think of UAE uh you know with with President uh you know president and the uh Crown Prince uh of Saudi Arabia I mean the in you know one-to-one relationship and the equation that the Prime Minister enjoys with all of these leaders actually makes", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-29", "text": "Minister enjoys with all of these leaders actually makes that difference okay and uh you know uh the foreign policy establishment uh you know to take advantage of that and yeah the trickle-down effect I'm sure comes up so another thing is that you know when we used to cover earlier asean Summits EU or you know any of these uh Summits when those uh family photographs are taken with all the world leaders and if if our prime minister would be you know a shrinking violet or somewhere in the corner it just didn't feel good you know there was this always said that we wanted as Indians you want your prime minister to be somewhere in the center somewhere near uh you know near Putin or near Obama or near whatever not in the corner so these things even for people who are non-practitioners of foreign policy and you know the Layman even that matters so family picture is one part of it but if you see that Prime Minister Modi is probably one of the most sought after leaders in the", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-30", "text": "probably one of the most sought after leaders in the world for any Global decision making that you have whether it's in climate change whether it is in issues that are political in nature or economic in nature he's always called in um he's been called into all of the recent G7 Summits as I said we are part of the world we're part of the brics we're part of the SEO uh we are part of the I2 U2 which has just been created we have Regional we engage as a country regionally with the European Union with with centralization states with CARICOM with digital cooperation council with the Pacific island states with asean African Union so we've got these mechanisms that enable us to engage with organizations or groups of countries across the across the world uh so uh in in recent years if you've seen um you know with you know on practically every Summit whether it's a democracy Summit or a green partnership Summit every possible initiative that the UN has taken or any individual country has taken Prime", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-31", "text": "UN has taken or any individual country has taken Prime Minister Modi has been a part of that he's been a very much sought after part of that so let's get to the people who brings value we have a problem engaging with let's get to China and Pakistan you know you just recently said that no diplomacy with China uh or no nothing forward with China until the legitimate issues are addressed even as foreign secretary you had a big challenge uh when you were foreign secretary this whole issue and doklam is still uh is an issue which remains unsettled Galvan and document all this the India China issue is still unsettled what does issue legitimate issues addressed what does that mean just explain to us what is addressing an issue mean well um I think we're all aware that in early 2020 when countries were quite preoccupied we were preoccupied with the covert crisis we saw an attempt to um you know mobilize troops on the line of actual control the line of control we saw um attempts", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-32", "text": "control the line of control we saw um attempts at multiple multiple attempts at transgressions across the Lac um so our point of course since then we've had a number of discussions at the level of army commanders and at the Diplomatic levels external affairs minister Dr jayashankar himself has met his counterpart on a number of occasions you also were part of yes I mean of course as foreign secretary um you know this was an issue that we one of the very major issues that we was it one of the biggest challenges in your career without a doubt I think the uh there were times that you know the um when the issue was was very much live that um you know it could have gone anyway so we had to make sure that we were constantly working together on a whole of government approach we were working um not in the united D but we were always there the eye was always on the ball we had to make sure that we got out of this situation uh in in", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-33", "text": "that we got out of this situation uh in in a way that that actually uh kept both our security and our strategic considerations intact and in place and at the same time uh that we would not in any way um you know yield any uh in any manner to this attempts at transgressions how hard was it to to be you know in those talks like what is what is the China Chinese delegation like in these talks no so these talks took place on the border uh on the actual Lac and it was between Army commanders I'm talking about the physical talks um and we always had one of our um you know it was it was a composite delegation that that actually attended talks um and in in I would say in every case you know you have to carefully think through how you needed to address those issues How Does It Go sir like uh who leads these talks is it the is it the National Security um uh no so the talks we've had so far has been at the level", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-34", "text": "we've had so far has been at the level of army commanders which is the core Commander uh leading the ladakh sector okay so uh it is the Army to Army talks but we always had one of our senior diplomats also as part of that and and and I'm sure the Chinese side also had their own people so essentially uh the talks uh were very limited to addressing the issues that were on the Lac on the ladakh and the Western sector and and I think some progress is made but my point that I was making and which has been made by the ministry external Affairs on a number of occasions has been that you know you cannot expect a normal diplomatic relationship when uh issues that were let's say that came up in 2020 territorial issues territorial issues are uh you know unless they are fully addressed so how do they want it do they want normal diplomatic relations what is their side one Chinese side no well you've heard them on a number of occasions asking for normalization diplomatic", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-35", "text": "a number of occasions asking for normalization diplomatic relations and of course the talks have been an effort to you know Bridge the gaps and and come to satisfactory conclusions that can enable us uh to to complete this process but we are not yet there that's what I'm saying their side always says that look uh maybe diplomatically we are not there where we should be but uh trade wise we are doing what uh uh 14.6 percent uh trade has increased uh in the first nine months of the year they are saying 103.6 billion dollars so what they are saying is that we're doing phenomenally well the relationship is good so you know what is it that little D incentivize any kind of territorial aggression from China when we continue to do trade with them no trade see uh we have to remember that trade is uh an essential part to the give and take the exchanges that you have with any country where China is a very large neighbor so and you know your industry also requires raw materials", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-36", "text": "so and you know your industry also requires raw materials that do come from China uh whether it is API for Pharma Pharmaceuticals or you know different types of equipment and raw material that you do need and you do also export a number of your items to that country um that aspect of it uh you know is is uh I would say um almost uh you know represents continuity in in any situations whether it is uh Japan's relations with China or the relations that even Taiwan has with China trade and Investments has been a part of that thing um in our case of course uh you know what I mean by normal diplomatic ties is uh you know in terms of exchange of visits in terms of higher level uh I would say exchanges Etc um but again that depends on how much progress is made and and that is a constant process so nothing is nothing is staying at one place the things always move on and things always so there is you know this kind of diplomatic entanglement where there is territorial issues", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-37", "text": "of diplomatic entanglement where there is territorial issues so what you're saying is that trade is in its place that happens with all countries that doesn't get weaponized but food and energy is getting weaponized we are looking at that with Russia in the Ukrainian War so why is that weaponized and not a trait then well food and food fuel fertilizers as we say are all parts of trade but it is you can you could you know countries can weaponize those aspects of trade that they feel uh gives them an advantage um and uh you know our Point always has been that weaponization of essential um you know parts of Supply chains is is not conducive to overall international trade and so we've been working with many of our partners to ensure a sustainable uh resilient supply chain system by which uh you know we are not affected uh or we are less affected when it comes to crises the type that you see whether it is a Health crisis or whether it is a political crisis uh you have to", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-38", "text": "whether it is a political crisis uh you have to make sure that your supply chains are not affected you had a question on this on the oil supply and Russia and G20 right so if we come back to G20 circle around and come back we have seen some uh position taken by India on the fuel from Russia buying fuel from Russia uh so at the same time West has criticized us and they have also imposed a price cap now on Russia so how do you look at this uh you know chemistry between India and Russia do you think we are going to continue buying oil and don't you think that this is also going to cost in the shadow and also this is not going to spoil the equations with other countries especially the US and others I think um you know we have it you know there are two types of sanctions one is sanctions uh through the United Nations system the other is unilateral sanctions imposed by countries uh we have as far as the Russia is concerned we have neither violated", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-39", "text": "the Russia is concerned we have neither violated neither there are no U.N sanctions but we are not violated any bilateral sanctions in other words uh there is no um bar on import of uh oil from Russia um the quantum is the problem no countries may say that you are importing but the same country is import a lot more than we do yeah so the point there really is that uh you know what are we violating I mean you know it is a free world out there you can import what you want to if there are restrictions of any kind that is placed and those restrictions impact on your uh let's say uh you know ability to continue to trade freely Etc obviously you will take that into account but if they don't violate those restrictions so um then then of course uh you know why would you um you know have to uh and what we are saying is that imports from Russia is also important for our own uh Imports of Russian oil oil we're an energy dependent country we import um", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-40", "text": "oil oil we're an energy dependent country we import um 75 to 80 percent of our energy needs we need to ensure that we provide for our people uh you know the best possible options and any impact which is by way of inflation higher costs of fuel it would impact across the board would have uh deleterious impact on the economy and the well-being of our people so we need to safeguard the interests of 1.4 billion people um so certainly when it comes to um you know Imports uh a there is no violation of any kind and B we're doing it because we believe that this is the best way to safeguard our national interests so there's also this view that Russia doesn't want a diplomatic isolation and it's looking at this G20 Summits which are being held in India the fact that India is the host and India is a traditionally been a partner a friend uh of Russia that Russia is hoping that India can smoothen its the problems that it has with the rest of the world", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-41", "text": "problems that it has with the rest of the world is that a connection so I I can't comment on that because I have not been privy to any such conversation with Russia and of course I must clarify that everything I've been saying whether it's on China or Russia is in my own private capacity yes but the fact is that uh as far as the G20 is concerned I think uh you know it is an international grouping as presidency you want to have the maximum amount of uh you know traction for your broad priorities our point of view is that our priorities are those that are impact on the rest of the world as I said it's its issue of growth inflation uh indebtedness of States uh you know ensuring that the sustainable development goals continue um that there is uh some effort to reform multilateral institutions to improve their functioning especially the um you know financial institutions and uh you know our priority also is women-led development so many of these areas are those that we will work on with the", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-42", "text": "areas are those that we will work on with the rest of the international rest of our partners in the G20 there's also this thing about you know it becoming more inclusive a platform and not just you know top heavy and that it though it's not a security platform but there are these issues which need to be dealt with and it's not just a talk shop we should that some solutions should come from these Summits so it look at it this way it brings together some of the most uh the leaders of some of the most powerful countries the countries that today really impact on decision making on the well-being of the rest of the world so the fact that you are convening you know 20 30 40 heads of state and government heads of international organizations the most prominent form I think is an opportunity for you to look at whatever you can do and what I mean what exactly is it that we can do is something that you know will be decided as you go along and this is at the highest level so", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-43", "text": "go along and this is at the highest level so that aspect will have to be seen but is it does give you an opportunity to uh to not only place your narrative in the global agenda but to lead that initiative to say that look in times of Crisis and difficulty uh there is uh there are solutions to challenges that that we can offer and that's what it is so do you think during the peak of this crisis Ukraine Russia both the leadership spoke to Prime Minister Modi do you think that India will be playing a peacemaker and in this context do you think Russian participation is confirmation in G20 is it confirmed because they have indicated that they are going to come for G20 see we have to understand what India's position has been on this issue we have said that we stand for peace we stand for diplomacy and dialogue prime minister has emphasized that this is not an era of War so I think and that aspect that has been included in the Bali Declaration of the", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-44", "text": "that has been included in the Bali Declaration of the G20 so uh the G20 is already listening to our approach to this entire issue that you know that this is something that is uh is uh in the interest of the global community ah that we look at the G20 from a perspective of a body that is able to provide solutions to Global challenges of the day which are significant I mean we are in a situation where 70 uh developing countries have reached a level of indebtedness growth is is slowing down to one-digit figures uh inflation is rampant currencies are falling import bills of countries for fuel and food is going up significantly so do we not need to look at these challenges and when you gather the leaders of some of some of the most influential countries in the world you need to really think and look and enjoy Active Solutions to these solutions to Global challenges yeah I mean those challenges across the board but largely those challenges are economic in nature and and of course uh", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-45", "text": "challenges are economic in nature and and of course uh you know um from that point of view I think our presidency will come up with uh with options and with with proposals and initiatives uh as prime minister said it would be an ambitious it would be a decisive it'll be an action oriented but an inclusive Summit personals or some challenge which you said it was this is a bigger challenge in my life nightmarish kind of situation if you want to Define any of such moments you know and that was that one and a half years I saw you not smiling at all well that also shows seriousness serious and you know every time I would look at you say ABI solution he's not he's still looking tense the well you know the idea is to find solutions to problems but certainly the crisis on the Lac was one of the one of the big challenge that we face but we had Afghanistan which was a huge challenge yes Ukraine and you know we had operation ganga that that enabled", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-46", "text": "and you know we had operation ganga that that enabled us to bring back 23 000 of our students our young people from Ukraine yeah it's going to be the anniversary of that one year anniversary that was a very critical piece so at this point last year uh you know we had daily meetings the Prime Minister himself you know presided over those meetings you briefed him and it has a hold of government approach so every bit responsible was there I think that is the only way we managed to tackle a problem of that crisis um so you had I mean you you had every uh you know other day with some crisis and some challenge raw materials resources foreign foreign to your right that was a quite a big crisis at that time or um we did not leave a single stone unturned to achieve those objectives of that the embassies were functioning uh with full capacity around the clock and I can tell you uh a of course I was fortunate I never got covered you were in Washington DC at that time no", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-47", "text": "covered you were in Washington DC at that time no I was in Delhi yeah you were in Delhi that's right yeah I never got put but more importantly I worked through each and every day there was not a single day in the worst lockdown that I did not work and everywhere around me people had got covered quite seriously yeah almost like emptied out at one point of time whichever officers were able to work we worked with them we we uh we did you know work through video conferencing it was a very difficult period very stressful period of time because you know the pressures were high at one time I do recall the Prime Minister himself said he said do whatever you can to make sure that we get the materials that we need for our country you know to deal with this uh a crisis I mean it had become I would say so difficult that we needed to ensure that we sort of accelerated our production whether it is medicines like remedy severe or whether it is uh we got from", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-48", "text": "severe or whether it is uh we got from the U.S cooperation when it was like not expected or people thought that there's no way they're trying to I think they said something overnight no the U.S government reacted very positively they understood that it was not only important but it is you know important for the relationship important for very large uh you know section of humanity to have the ability to vaccinate but also the fact that we were using the vaccines for the rest of the world also mattered I mean after all Indian made vaccines were in were sent to 150 countries across the world our coven platform through which we successfully uh administered two billion vaccines was open source and we made it available to countries across the world in 142 countries participate participated in a global coven uh conference that we are right now in hindsight everybody is talking about how great it was but at that stage when we were in the second wave there was a lot of criticism domestically also that you", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-49", "text": "was a lot of criticism domestically also that you haven't managed to vaccinate our domestic population and you've started sending it out to other countries so how does the foreign policy establishment how does how does Mea deal with uh with that kind of criticism criticism so of course you know it is a valid point that you must make your vaccines available first to your own people that is certainly a priority and I think we were fully cognizant of that it was only after uh checking with all concerned Niti Health Ministry uh you know whichever organization was responsible dghs Etc that we actually allowed the export of some items uh vaccines to other countries especially our neighbors our partners developing countries Etc um you have to keep in mind that in the beginning the system was not geared up to administering that level of vaccines you know it takes a bit of time to build up the cold chain uh you know the uh the institutions that would vaccinate to get the data for people uh you", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-50", "text": "vaccinate to get the data for people uh you know who would be vaccinated Etc so that took a few months and that is when vaccine my three actually took off from January to about April and and that's the time that we exported a certain number of vaccines and then of course we stopped from about uh you know April May onwards till uh September October still we could vaccinate a good building end of our own people yeah and that was also another challenging aspect I think of your tenure that you faced uh another thing which I must uh bring out is that you know this criticism uh that is done of our foreign policy that it's increasingly linked with uh with politics of the country with domestic politics uh something that there was some kind of a firewall uh before 2014 but post 2014 uh it's become uh more inter interlinked with domestic politics how do you see that well I mean foreign policy has never been fully insulated from from domestic politics because you know when you", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-51", "text": "from from domestic politics because you know when you deal with your neighbors it always impacts on on our states uh you know around for example if you deal with Nepal Bihar and up are always impacted you deal with Bangladesh it is Whispering tripura you deal with Sri Lanka it is Tamil Nadu Kerala so there is an impact which which is there and you know at the end of the day um when you talk about uh you know cooperative federalism uh you do involved States and I think the Endeavor of uh government of Prime Minister Modi has been uh you know to the largest extent possible to involve States in any Endeavor that involves foreign policy the second thing we have tried to do in the ministry external Affairs is to demystify a foreign policy okay take it and I think Ani has been an important part of that effort I mean you know uh every decision that has been made or every step that we take in foreign policy is is articulated to uh to the", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-52", "text": "in foreign policy is is articulated to uh to the Grassroots level to say that this is what it is I mean G20 also yeah uh the fact that we have through Jan bhagadhari more taking it to the Grassroots level is an indication as the Prime Minister says is that we want to take diplomacy to the nation that means you you want to make sure that everybody understands what is the rationale what is it all about what is it in for us and our country so that is very critical and that I think in in you know in my 10 years foreign secretary there has been a very important part of what I've tried to do with our external publicity division with all of our partners and stakeholders how do we try and take this across that means if you have a press release is not just in English or Hindi it is in all regional languages it is disseminated to Regional media people try and get it uh you know whatever and if you say you do something with regard to", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-53", "text": "and if you say you do something with regard to Myanmar then make sure that information is there in Manipur or mizoram so that people who have a stake in that also understand what it's all about yeah so we tried to take it this whole demystification bit and I used to always joke with the uh Ministry of external especially the XP division external publicity division in case people don't know what that means is that that is our interface for journalists that's where we get our information from the external publicity division so you know the the jsxp which is the joint secretary uh in external Affairs Ministry or who deals with publicity he's our Point person from whom we get information so you know it's it's always it's a hard hard task to get some information especially when it comes to India China matters and India Pakistan matters as you know so so we have to you know like you say uh India and Pakistan foreign ministers met and bilateral issues were discussed and uh it was a free and", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-54", "text": "issues were discussed and uh it was a free and Frank discussion and so ham looks if if it is that uh matters of mutual interest were discussed that means it was a general Samosa so I used to always say that at some point of time the ministry of external Affairs briefings should be open to the general public because they will take the BS level out of this out of this uh you know niceties which form your uh your press releases and your explanations I hope G20 may you do this you speak to the people and answer it see the I think you've already done that you have taken the vs out of uh foreign policy and you asked Naveen uh you know whatever was uh was uh seemed to be uh you know uh to lack uh some detail in the briefing he would immediately get to me and say what's it all about and we'll try and uh we'll try and put it very open for questions you know okay but but you're right I mean you know there's this", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-55", "text": "but you're right I mean you know there's this fogging of issues foreign policy to some extent constant because it's not just you know we're dealing with other partners interlocutors and you know we have to make sure that uh that uh if the wrong message doesn't go through in some ways right but at the same time I think it is absolutely essential that you know we are able to put foreign policy uh in terms that everybody can comprehend understand and relate to I think that's very important what is the biggest challenge in this uh in all these meetings which are being held I mean Logistics of course is going to be difficult is it going to be airports is it going to be bundabast it's going to or is it going to be egos of uh of the heads of government and heads of state who are coming well I mean you know um as Chief coordinator my job is to coordinate and I find that coordination is is quite a challenge because you are dealing with multiple stakeholders you", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-56", "text": "challenge because you are dealing with multiple stakeholders you know from states to districts to uh different uh entities in our own government uh you know range of organizations uh and I think that it's very important to constantly look at how you can coordinate how you can resolve issues quickly simply and and with such certain level of expediency uh in a practical way so um as you do 200 meetings you know there are a lot of lessons learned and and best practices you apply them you know the first SharePoint meeting of therefore has been a great success in the way that we are showcased India and provided Indian experiences I mean after all our effort has been to host an impeccable and uniquely Indian G20 presidency So to that extent I think in in you know therefore we have managed to to provide that uh flavor uh to the share parts of coming from all of these countries it was extremely ostentatious yeah very very uh yeah yeah but the idea is that for example you go to whichever", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-57", "text": "the idea is that for example you go to whichever place you go to and as I mentioned right in the beginning prime minister's directives that you know every every state has its own uniqueness its own characteristics its own Beauty Etc so we are trying to bring that out okay so uh you for example uh if you go to um Kerala you will find that there are you know forms of cultural practices there which which would be in you know or or Cuisine from Kerala next year is the international year of militant India had a major role in getting that trip because we have been using bridge for uh you know as part of our traditional cuisine for Millennia whereas today millets is you know has become the new uh I would say uh the ideal food it provides nourishment it is got roughages it's it's a rich in protein and and I think this is something that is making a comeback yeah Mr David will be very happy that ragi is he's been talking about it since he was", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-58", "text": "is he's been talking about it since he was prime minister that about millets and now ultimately after 20 25 years I think it's it's come to the fore so I was asking about the egos also you know I've seen in international Summits this is what happens our Prime Ministers entering block the airport this the main conference room should be for our president and then who meets who the sidebars which happen these are all also the the sideshow which people don't get to know about it tell us something about that how difficult is it some of that will come in later as we get to the ministerial and to the top level and I think it's important for us as the host when it comes to foreign governments to make sure that sensitivities are taken taken into account I mean you know every country has uh every country will make demands you know we want this hotel someone will say we want that access we want to be the first here we want to be speaking here now uh you", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-59", "text": "here we want to be speaking here now uh you obviously can't accommodate everyone all the time but what you need to do is to try and you know make as many delegations as comfortable as possible take their sensitivities into account and I think we will constantly work and what about food are these food things very important like a vegetarian so in any International event that is important but what we are saying you you when you come to India you enjoy our Cuisine so if you go to Gujarat you will get a Gujarati thali you'll be showcasing food a lot from yes that is one of our endeavors like culture like places of you know interest excursions you know whether you go to the kumbalgar Fort or you go to ajanta and ellora we take them to iconic places but we also give them Cuisine which is uniquely Indian I mean of that region so when they had makiki Roti in udaipur many delegates loved it I hope they never find chicken tikka masala", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-60", "text": "I hope they never find chicken tikka masala anywhere in India just so that they know that it's a British thing and it's not indians meetings but meetings meetings so now I want to get a little bit about you as a person uh tell me why did you choose to join the a Foreign Service the reason I'm asking is there are many youngsters who listen into this podcast who watch it on YouTube uh when they take the civil services exam what is it that like what motivated you to pick Foreign Service well uh you know at that time of course motivations were what your you know your elders tell you what your peer groups tell you my father always had an interest in Foreign Service he encouraged me to join the foreign I'm from Darjeeling in West Bengal but he possibly always had an interest himself in the Foreign Service so inculcated in me in me that interest and so it was there with me quite early but what I can say is that there is no uh better satisfaction than", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-61", "text": "say is that there is no uh better satisfaction than to represent your country and by represent I don't mean represent at senior levels you represent even if you go for a very small meeting which has representative of other countries you still represent your country so um that opportunity is a unique one and as I said some time back I said you know uh 10 15 years ago to what it is now and what people will see as you go into Amrit Khal and we we come closer to our 100th anniversary I think there'll be a paradigm a shift in the way uh Indian India is regarded and representatives of India regarded so you will really see an ability uh to serve at the high table to serve with the most intentional groups and most important of all to make an impact globally in which your voice is heard and what you have to say it matters your aunt was also foreign secretary you also became the foreign secretary I'm sure when you sit across the table you talk about what it is", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-62", "text": "sit across the table you talk about what it is like to represent India what was it like for her and uh when she was foreign secretary and for you was there any change in India in representing India yeah I think uh it was a different uh time because she was foreign secretary at the turn of the century that means around 2001 in that period of time and we were already coming we've already sort of becoming uh you know a country that people looked at but uh but I think uh what it was and then and what it is today um is is absolutely no comparison and uh if you remember um you know um Even in our relationship with the US you know you were equated at a certain level yeah and today those equations are completely different and and our ability to to engage countries is completely different so for anybody who's uh you know an aspirant for the upsc exam thinking of what he should do I think the Foreign Service is a great career is absolutely one of the best most", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-63", "text": "a great career is absolutely one of the best most satisfying careers that anyone can have and I think not only because of course uh you know you experience different parts of the world but you you also take to them your own country but most important for all as I said our own country is changing so quickly and is becoming uh such uh you know an important player in global in the global decision making process that I think the opportunities for our younger generations and women I'm seeing more and more participation more and more women joining your service so 40 of every Foreign Service batch consists of women now uh they are smart they're articulate they made us all very proud and when we talk about women-led development these are the people are going to lead development in our country a major problem I think also with the Foreign Service is that if the couple uh gets you know like if the the man and the woman both are in the Foreign Service you don't get posted in the same place these are the pitfalls of", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-64", "text": "posted in the same place these are the pitfalls of your service that you know you don't get posted in the same city so a large portion of the married life is you're separate this is one aspect the second is that the children every three years you get posted out then it you know the children have this problem of getting admission into schools that that is also one of the issues so what we're trying to do is to post couples together for as long as we can until they become you know head of poster head of mission in such a case obviously you can't have two ambassadors in the same country so they have to be separate but sometimes they're in neighboring countries uh um the ministry I think has a you know takes a fairly uh positive view of people who are in such situations and tries to accommodate them to the extent that they can uh as far as children is concerned yes they do need to move and it's a very itinerant way of life um in our own case", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-65", "text": "itinerant way of life um in our own case we've tried to ensure that our you know son has been in in India in the seminal periods of is education so in the four or five years when it mattered most uh you know right from class eight to class 12 was class 11 we try to make sure that he was he was here in India yeah because that then he can identify he's got friends from school here he's got he knows the place he's uh so it's important to also plan and you can plan I mean nothing prevents you from staying in India for as long as you want right and I'm seeing uh noticing that when Foreign Service officers this is almost like seven eight years I think that you know they call in the ambassadors they call in the high Commissioners back to India once a year and then you need to travel in the country and see it's not just that one Bharat darshan but you need to travel more and more in the country to know your country better now yeah", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-66", "text": "in the country to know your country better now yeah so it's very important to have your uh you know your or basic fundamentals correct in other words you have to know your country very well to represent your country not superficially not through reading but actually to through traveling to parts of a country so we have a heads of missions conference every year we just had one uh the investors really go back to their home States visit their home States go down to the Grassroots level developmental level meet the chief minister Chief secretary everybody get a very good grasp of what it is all about and and they also have Bharat darshan every person who becomes is appointed Ambassador gets an opportunity to do his Bharat darshan he goes to those states that he wants to I remember when I was posted to Thailand as a master I did the bharadarshan in the Northeast you know starting with the Sam ending in ending in andaments because these are the places that that were linked to Thailand I mean if you", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-67", "text": "that that were linked to Thailand I mean if you stood in in Port Blair you can see 48 kilometers away is is Phuket in in Thailand and that's where they have uh you know an interest because of materials and goods coming in ETC at so essentially um you choose states that you want to and you go to places that uh you know that have some relevance to what you're doing but also to enable you to understand uh you know very clearly what are the current you know our country is also changing very quickly development is very fast every every other day there is some new initiative there's no new policy you need to see it on the ground you need to actually visit it so even when I was foreign secretary I tried to travel within the country as well okay I went to several places I went to Amritsar you're very extremely popular in West Bengal also that's my home state so I I you know I think you shared a good relation with this chief minister here also well I", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-68", "text": "good relation with this chief minister here also well I mean you know that's another question I wanted to ask about you know yeah interacting with with states with different uh Chief Ministers of States how does how do Foreign Service officers meet up with uh with different states if suppose this state government is an opposition state government is there the same level of interaction as say the ruling party see I mean it's it's uh as far as you're concerned uh you represent India and the chief minister of any state is is the chief minister of you know a state of your country so when they relate to you and they come abroad um you uh you make sure that you know they have the best opportunities to meet the sort of people they want to meet whether it's investors whether it's people who have an economic interests the diaspora and so on so forth so I think Foreign Service officers have a lot of possibilities because Chief ministers today under a cooperative federalism program and you can also call it competitive", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-69", "text": "federalism program and you can also call it competitive federalism because you need to compete for Investments for trade Etc so Chief ministers are increasingly going out and and looking at opportunities that they can bring back to their states and you can play a role and of course we have uh heads of our brand secretariats our rpos who are posted in these places they also interact you mentioned West Bengal I think as when I was in Bangladesh obviously you need to work closely with the chief Ministers of states around you West Bengal of course was was most prominent but I met all the chiefness Sam mizoram uh you know all Chief ministers that had a uh and you know border with Bangladesh and had something to do so everywhere wherever you're posted there is a certain uh you know link with uh States and with the CMS there even as part of the G20 initiatives act East policy that's a major thing that uh for so yes neighborhood first activist these and the indo-pacific these", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-70", "text": "neighborhood first activist these and the indo-pacific these are major planks of our policy uh the other day I did go out to guwahati and I I spoke about you know the linkage between our Actis policy in the Northeast so it is not in isolation when you talk about activities and what are the benefits that that our country can get what are the benefits that parts of our country can get and for the Northeast which has this issue of being somewhat you know cut off from the mainland you know what are the benefits of using you know being a link between the mainland and these countries Etc so this this is important to people so yeah relating to States I think is very critical in foreign policy and the more you can do it today the better off better your purpose is served so I have one related question when it comes to foreign policy or security matters or national security we have seen in mature democracies and Western democracies there is a bipartisan approach you know like they are", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-71", "text": "is a bipartisan approach you know like they are all on same page when it comes to these issues but here we have seen some differences you know like even your G20 is in a way politicized they said that we are making a big deal out of it it's just uh opposition has said this that it's just a rotation of for presidency why are we making it such a big event so how do you look at it do you think these are still a long way to travel when it comes to bipartisan you know approach or all all will be on same page on the foreign policy and the defense matters well it's I think when it comes to domestic issues you know you will obviously have differences and in any democracy you should have when it comes to foreign policy they should be as much of convergence as you can because then you're speaking with one voice you're United you are able to protect your views you have to support the government of the day and support those initiatives that are there", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-72", "text": "the day and support those initiatives that are there and understand where they're coming from and as part of the ministry external Affairs we have had many Outreach you know we've got the Parliamentary committee on external Affairs we have the consulative committee which the external affairs minister heads those are constantly meeting and those are constant I mean I think that is the link between the ministry I mean other than the you know the the statements that are made in Parliament the parliament questions Etc but these committees also provide a very useful interface so whether it is the you know our approach to the neighborhood activist policy neighborhood first policy uh you know the Ukraine conflict uh evacuation of our citizens Ukraine all of this is discussed in great length presentations are made but at the end of the day uh if there are differences uh those can you know be exploited uh by those that who have don't have our best interests in mind and also sir Prime Minister Modi as you said that has been", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-73", "text": "Prime Minister Modi as you said that has been working very closely whether it is Operation you know one day Bharat or vaccine how close is this G20 project to his heart and how much is he coordinating with you on this no I think if there's any um indication of the importance that the Prime Minister attaches to the G20 issue you can see that he has taken at least four or five meetings exclusively on the G20 issue in the recent weeks right from the launch of the logo website and theme of the G20 to the you know briefing to the Council of ministers and all secretaries to government of India uh to a meeting the all party meeting that is convened on the G20 to a meeting of the chief ministers and governors of States on G20 these all exclusively G20 meetings he has made it a point to emphasize to the country through all of the different interactions not only the importance of India's G20 presidency but what is our message and again what", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-74", "text": "presidency but what is our message and again what is it what is it in for the uh you know for our for every citizen of India so this thing has been an important aspect of that how to convey the message across and how to make everybody stakeholders and partners in that exercise it is not a remote exercise out of daily not it is not that of the central government it's not just a whole of government approach it's the whole of nation approach in dealing with the G20 so it is a unique opportunity think of it we have never hosted an international event of this magnitude and significance today we are on the global high table we are seen as a rare uh I would say you know Ray of Hope in in what is otherwise a scene of despondency in Gloom in the international Arena we have the opportunities to impact significantly on the global narrative but at the same time we can use G20 to Showcase and highlight our own countries achievements developments tourism potential cultural heritage prime", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-75", "text": "countries achievements developments tourism potential cultural heritage prime minister told CMZ said you know over the last next one year we'll have about a lack a foreign you know participants and delegates coming into India many of them will come into your States all over India so let's make the best of this opportunity they will showcase India for us yeah wherever they go they'll be the spotlight uh there'll be media Spotlight there'll be Spotlight from their countries they will go and talk about it there will be a resonance how can we make the best of it how can we involve our youth younger people our University students are you know people who've been trained in international relations in foreign languages who have an interest in this how can they be part of the process I mean we generate and mobilize their human training of taxi drivers It's Beginning from that uh absolutely I mean I found that quite unique that it's going down to the Grassroots yeah that you know they are the first uh interface right as soon as", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-76", "text": "they are the first uh interface right as soon as you get out of the airport it's the taxi driver so he or she is the person who gives the first impression right this reminds me of China Allah hosting Olympics they trained all their taxi drivers in Beijing to speak English although it has not Ministry of Tourism is doing this training in soft skills with tour guides taxi drivers all who come into contact with our with delegates the police Bureau of police research and development is doing a training of a police person in all the states which will be involved with G20 the MAA has trained a thousand uh you know liaison officers in in the line Ministries we'll do that with the states also so a training of people and mobilizing people including volunteers is an important part of that exercise and and that I think is is a great way of mentioned a lot about the neighborhood policy sir but uh very Frankly Speaking we're going to come to Pakistan actually we have still no normal", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-77", "text": "to come to Pakistan actually we have still no normal relationships with Pakistan especially and also China through that matter for obvious reasons but do you think that there is any Ray of Hope of normalization of relation between India and Pakistan in near future and how do you look at the bilateral relationship overall so I think let me someone who's worked in the neighborhood for the you know for a good part of my career I think the neighborhood first policy has been one of our Stellar successes Prime Minister Modi has laid a lot of emphasis on development relations with our neighborhood uh our investments in our neighborhoods or lines of credit grants in Aid focus on connectivity on building infrastructure has yielded tremendous results our own lines of credit to the neighborhood have increased from about 3 billion in 2014 to 15 billion in 2022. so we have invested a lot in neighborhood connectivity and development and we talked about vishwas and sabka prayas we are talking about the neighborhood also because unless you bring", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-78", "text": "talking about the neighborhood also because unless you bring them into your sphere of development growth and prosperity you can never hope to do that in isolation I mean your neighbors need to be part of that and so I think whether it is on the security side and the Strategic side whether it is in the economic side and connectivity side uh whether it is on the People to People side we have achieved tremendously whether it's relations with Nepal Bhutan Bangladesh Sri Lanka Maldives Mauritius we've done Afghanistan of course uh you know has been a setback but that is the geopolitical level and even there I think we're managing it very well um Pakistan is a different Paradigm there's no sauce also when it comes to Pakistan yeah so obviously it is a different case and until and unless uh look every time you've taken an initiative to improve relations Pakistan and Prime Minister Modi has done his best he has gone to Lahore himself he has reached out he has done whatever it", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-79", "text": "he has reached out he has done whatever it takes but it in response you've had uh terrorist attacks that have had a tremendous impact you know a negative impact so um there is clearly a linkage between development of relations and the sort of reaction that you can have from from various quarters of that country so uh the the point that has been made is that a terrorism does not pay and B you cannot have a normal relationship with a country like Pakistan unless there is an in principal decision to uh to not support uh terrorists no Terror and talks together so that impact is there and you know I think um um it is the credit of this government that this this policy has been reinforced and that we've not had any issues uh you know with that country lately yeah um we have tried to extend the same Paradigm that we have had with other countries to Pakistan including in the power sector as you would recall uh trade power I mean I think both countries could benefit in those areas but response", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-80", "text": "think both countries could benefit in those areas but response hasn't been uh hasn't been uh what it should have been and I think there are clearly uh you know wasted interest that opposed to any forward movement in that relationship and I think it is important for us to protect our own interests and show that our our uh you know Safety and Security of our citizens is kept a Paramount and and I think um to that extent we will uh you know uh have to continue unless there is a there is some uh very serious change in that attitude the invitations to the special invites in the G20 you have reached out to I think Bangladesh and many other African countries and other in Gulf then why I think Pakistan has missed out and do you think that there is any initiative to bring them also in do you think we should have brought them in I think let's put it this way every presidency can invite a few countries there are limited number of countries you can invite from our immediate from our", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-81", "text": "of countries you can invite from our immediate from our neighborhood we've invited uh Bangladesh and Mauritius two countries we've invited from the Gulf region UAE and Oman from Africa we have invited the largest representation ever so we've got the we've got South Africa was already a member of G20 we've got the African Union we've got nepad which is Rwanda we've also invited Nigeria and we've invited Egypt so for the first time in a G20 you'll have six African States represented uh this is unprecedented it also shows the priority we give to the developing world um and and so uh you know every country has a certain priority which you to follow I mean uh in brics we invited all of our uh bimstick countries to participate um after all you have to keep in mind that when prime minister was elected in 2014 invited all the countries at 2019 invited all brim State countries so inclusivity in our neighborhood is part of our approach but obviously there are limits", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-82", "text": "part of our approach but obviously there are limits and there are well you know in Pakistan doesn't get invited then they get they are the nasty uh relative who's not invited to a wedding then they will try to sabotage but again we've you know because of the limitations of the number of countries we've only been invited able to invite two neighbors so there is a it's not that we invited every all countries there is a guest limit exactly okay on that note sir thank you very much uh for speaking with us and wish you all the success for the summit thank you very much I appreciate that thank you um for having me on the show thank you thank you for watching or listening in to this edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this but before going today let me also thank you for all the feedback that you've been giving us we will try and create content as per what you want us to do and", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "fe037b1e0af2-83", "text": "content as per what you want us to do and the guests that you want on this show namaste foreign [Music]", "source": "CbUyML_vGII"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-0", "text": "one alphabet separating isi and Isis there is only one alphabet separating b j y and BJP Bharat jodo yatra G20 it has 85 percent of the global GDP these 20 countries 75 percent of the world trade I think for India to be chatting it it gives you an opportunity to set an agenda where 85 of the world GDP is concerned tell a male politician you find good looking um no no I find that only George Clooney good looking where there was this Telugu wedding taking place and it was the layer Mehndi songs which were playing out there that Deepika needed to be given comeuppance for what she did during those jnu protests so they found some reason to go after Harry or Megan [Music] Megan or Harry this podcast is going to be a Blockbuster Namaste Jain welcome to the last episode of 2022 of ani podcast with Smitha prakash most of the podcasts that I have done have been very serious in nature I've had defense Personnel I've had authors I've", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-1", "text": "I've had defense Personnel I've had authors I've had doctors so the nature of the podcasts have been kind of you know on serious issues so we thought that since it's the last episode let's have some light uh not frivolous but maybe something uh that we could laugh about something that would bring about a little bit of Mirth this episode is not intended to hurt any sentiments it's not it's not intended to offend anybody so I would request you all to take this in a light-hearted manner uh just like we end this year we're just grateful that we got out of kovid we're all alive and healthy so let's look forward to 2023 with a smile on our faces so who are my guests today let's introduce them the four people who are my guest today are pretty active on social media too my first guest is sushant Serene now he's with the Observer Research Foundation and is an expert on all things Pakistan sushant has written on National Security matters and you would have seen him", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-2", "text": "on National Security matters and you would have seen him on TV debates where he takes on his opponent with the finesse that only a Punjabi from Delhi can full frontal Anand raghanathan is a scientist and author you would have seen him on TV debates too his 32nd Takia Kalam is legendary Anand is sharply witty and takes no prisoners when he decides to debate with someone no one quite knows for certain if he's a tamilian or a Punjabi does he like Mysore park or as he claims does he like chole bhature too let's discuss that today with him [Music] foreign so he comes in for a lot of ribbing but he takes it quite spottingly his brother is the spokesperson for the BJP tessing speaks for the congress party on TV debates but is not in the congress party he has friends on both sides of the political spectrum and doesn't let politics color his friendships has been on the podcast before he's many things", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-3", "text": "has been on the podcast before he's many things all at once think tanker writer podcaster National Security and defense expert very opinionated caustic sense of humor has friends on both sides of the ideological debate people on social media either love him or hate him he dresses in an odd manner you'll see that today and he speaks to shock but he is a friend of friends I have a manual here I apologize to my listeners next time I'll make that change please explain Abhijit why you dress like you are so to celebrate the integration of Kashmir into India wearing a fair run and um to you know as a mark of respect for the fallen in the Ukraine Russia War I'm wearing my Russian Fox for ushanka arctic fox ushanka okay and to celebrate the common history of Kevin Roos which provided the first tsars to Russia I've also worn my Imperial tiara see that's because it's because it's on top of the ushanka that's why but what about the scepter no", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-4", "text": "that's why but what about the scepter no you know why he's actually done it because see my scepter is a symbol of my authority and my right to strike down you should face multi-purpose I like what you are trying to incident I am not in multiple purpose gets very naughty yeah he wants to ask me [Laughter] I have no idea this is a design actually thinks that hamlogs whenever the BJP tells me go to Pakistan you are empty National I say talk to the hand yeah so what is even Shazia has this what is this she got the tricology okay something she has where she then I have a Kalma but I don't know you are one of the most religious people I know [Music] [Laughter] so they said you can't have a flag pin so that's my so then I got a tattoo done the music was terrible right I don't know why people are getting their nickels under twist over it the music was terrible the choreography Deepika who's got her knickers", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-5", "text": "the choreography Deepika who's got her knickers yeah what are they protesting about I don't know the knickers the color of the knickers the color the color is the problem the color is the problem I don't think uh the fact she is you firstly why only Deepika nobody talked about what Shahrukh looks like have you seen I mean this is a manal so I'm the only woman so I mean excuse me excuse me you just perpetrated gender genocide I I am not going to participate where you have verbal genital mutilation happening on TV sorry sorry sorry you know sorry very sorry we are are the only two women here so we are outnumbered because 18 male gender so obviously they will talk about Deepika why can't we talk about Shahrukh yes I can also talk about I think it's quite hot I don't think he's hot he's quite hot in that song is that uh spray painted or is it really yeah even I want that is [Laughter] since he was the", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-6", "text": "I want that is [Laughter] since he was the first one to come in so he said I said um I take strong exceptions and from this and from that and may I start palpitating I said you know where is this guy going from the next there was this do you remember there used to be somebody on Twitter called major majorly profound no no no majorly PhD or something at first it was PhD majorly profound so he used to talk about Pakistan a lot and nobody knows whether he was a Pakistani or he was an Indian but he knew Pakistan so well and so people were convinced it cannot be anybody else so he was the one who said there's this word called uh you know right yeah you're liable to him yeah killed in the sin not just killed but uh assassinated basically right you're watching because you have violated whatever so he said together he started that term called foreign I would have lost the job because even while I was in training I used to say the", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-7", "text": "while I was in training I used to say the railways is a moribund organization to the DRM the guy I was reporting this is the divisional Railway manager or something the guy was reporting to I was still a probationer and the guy was shocked kid this guy is talking like this I knew I was and I'm now talking about the early 90s right mid 90s uh and there was this hotel out there where there was this Telugu wedding taking place and it was the layer Mehndi songs which were playing out there so the cultural uh Invasion started in the 90s yeah that's it that two kinds in the world so this is a very interesting information has one Punjabi song basically yeah yeah firstly nobody even knows do you remember the song it used to run everywhere and I precise from that um nobody know knew what was me but everybody would sing and I would like go to the South Indian weddings bloody and you're going Nobody Knows the meaning but", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-8", "text": "bloody and you're going Nobody Knows the meaning but have you seen the new generation of Punjabi songs which is basically one guy singing One high-pitched thing with just a door lock at the back that isn't getting popular at all I think Punjabi artists are famous no no no Once Upon a Time very toxic very toxic yeah and it stopped being that popular you know correct in the last three four years what is one major Punjabi song that's had in India it's not a new name used to be the what it used to be is no longer there and frankly uh it's very disturbing the music number one is only about drugs it's about guns it's about girls fast cars I mean that's just part of a cultural narrative that builds up and it'll go away just a phase but but we are seeing the impact of that in Punjabi what's happening about uh you know that you need to have you need to be open and everything but then it's also detrimental I", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-9", "text": "and everything but then it's also detrimental I feel that I don't know about you guys it's technically if you look at it it's not Punjabi culture it's an import of this American rap culture that these guys are imitating no Raptors you look at trap it's all about guns girls cars drugs and drugs same teams oh that way so you know it's it's Punjab could influence the rest of India as long as it had its own culture we all used to go crazy that Monsoon wedding song we used to go crazy about we didn't have to understand what he was saying it was just very catchy it was Innovative tunes and things like that right just the beat itself was something which kind of the words didn't make sense yeah but now when you import American culture with a team that you know a lot of people now find it so irritating this one very strange tune that comes all Punjabi songs now sounded the same um it's the Punjab which has gone", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-10", "text": "the same um it's the Punjab which has gone to uh America and Canada that didn't say see the yeah Canada Punch guy so you know uh we the urban uh Elite if I may call of Delhi of of Ludhiana of Chandigarh or whatever [Laughter] special treatment [Laughter] foreign [Laughter] [Music] uh all the friends I made in jail were all serial killers that jail apparently has a ridiculously high number of serial killers out there so the first they're all in politics now trust me I'm sure uh so all the guys well they're in jail they can't be in politics no but what had happened was the first guy I had met uh who I engaged to clean my uh I didn't engage it I didn't even know you could get people to clean your room and bathroom out there or whatever so you trade coupons and get people to do stuff and what happened was this guy had apparently killed and raped 13 women of whom they only found", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-11", "text": "and raped 13 women of whom they only found nine bodies Jesus then there was another great friends and I made friends he was apparently in him the Apparently an army colonel or something from the medical Corps who had chopped his wife into 200 pieces and was smuggling her out in Tiffin boxes in different boxes in different boxes gross he even impersonated a judge yeah yeah how many it's crazy but I think more than that YouTube stories there has to be a reason for that exactly and obviously living has allowed it for so long may the jail authorities were hand in love with him it's crazy imagine from the jail calling up and saying he's just calling from the top Minister's office imagine you are extorting what 200 crores yeah yeah in cash somebody's to that I'm wondering what kind of an idiot it was actually good she did apparently yeah he mapped the phone number made it come from the landline and asked her to call back and check voice didn't come back on the mobile", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-12", "text": "back and check voice didn't come back on the mobile what kind of when he was giving him cash regardless looking through the forest when I look at it tell me something 200 crores if I have that kind of money to bribe somebody you can buy anything in this country you can buy Pakistan why do you need to go through whatever he was dri or whatever it was calling from ex-person's office which was the second highest or which is the second highest office in our country executive office and he kept assuring the lady that the concerned gentleman is in touch with and he asked her to call back on the numbers another thing please tell me how do these pretty girls fall for such weirdos how does that happen why are you specifically asking that yeah because he bombed the film industry I mean also his wife is likes her heart she is and you're implying that he's not but are you sure no she's implying you're a weird weirdo the CCTV footage what what's been", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-13", "text": "weirdo the CCTV footage what what's been suspended the judge he was got uh in the actual right right and the high court has said that no Twitter handle will uh you know tweet that there is a thing that it was consensual it was in his Chambers the place may not have been appropriate but I think what the court considered was it was consensual Chambers whenever somebody talks about consensual and Chambers I think of that one video that I have seen of a certain lawyer I won't comment on it you not get it traumatizes you for life I would think that if anybody is red white tiger I pay my service stuff very well huh they will not nobody is very also very important not to talk a lot of people I I find it really weird a lot of people carry out a lot of business conversation with that yeah I can understand a car which has that glass kind of a thing and you know it's a soundproof kind of thing I can understand you're doing business", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-14", "text": "kind of thing I can understand you're doing business in a car and you're being driven somewhere but in such an open car yeah it's like but journalists will happen imagine if shushan was a business oh yeah mcbco then then he doesn't you know that is what he's a gentle giant yeah he's a gentle giant would name I'm just very careful in the company where I'm abusing otherwise I can be uh yeah frankly you know I used to get along very well with them but I think for me the break point was uh 26 and 11. yeah that after and you know what pissed me off even more uh on 26 11. was that there was nobody who was contrite about it yeah nobody showed any kind of you know there was this lip service they would pay all of them and I've seen people who I knew very well yeah you know even they would try and uh you know defend something try and sidesteppers and that was that was that really pissed me off", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-15", "text": "that was that was that really pissed me off you really are not going to get anything out of them they are so warped in their head you know they were just scared to it's not about scared yeah it's not that look just look at that clip which is doing the rounds I think yesterday these are these three young kids being asked about why don't you like India and it's it's not that you know we have a problem it's an enemy country or something like yes and that pisses me off you know and frankly the whole society has got so warped uh that I and I have seen the kind of people who I used to think are very normal regular kind of guy just ruined you right and I was so pissed off one and you know some of these guys had come after 26 11 and we were having a conversation I had lost it there because one of these anchors in his show had seen his partner was saying addressing the Taliban India and this bastard kept quiet yeah", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-16", "text": "the Taliban India and this bastard kept quiet yeah I said yeah this other guy who act pretends to be very liberal Pakistani is talking about and I said yeah who pretend to be so bloody liberal and so Progressive and other things and you kept quite good such a Shameless fellow here nobody knows that is when I said yeah but you know why I agree with sushant now this entire thing about Pakistan suddenly The Narrative and you see it on social media oh finally Pakistan is getting so Democratic they're supporting imrani Army it's actually eating more Islam it's actually getting more islamized hope for Pakistan no I'll tell you why I find you such a misfit do you say all the right things but you you defend all the wrong things I I said so yesterday no I'll tell you this very frankly you are absolutely right about you know the what you just said right now but uh look at the way you know the people whom you defend look at their attitude look", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-17", "text": "people whom you defend look at their attitude look at the kind of stuff which comes out of them yeah how could you say that and I find it really surprising that this was the party of you know supposedly freedom of nationalism it defined it you should Define nationalism that you're tweeting about mentioning Indira Gandhi right of course who can deny it yeah her contribution but when somebody tells me do this tweet this from whichever party it irritates me that I don't want to do something which you're telling me to do regardless of which party you are from which government you are State Central whatever the grandson says and then after that laugh about it okay he was laughing at the media but what does it appear you can't take that lightly man do you understand the Heritage which you come from you have to uphold that he wants everybody to remember that the union of India but he keeps forgetting it's the Indian National Congress it is Indian National Congress when you lose your nationalism the", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-18", "text": "is Indian National Congress when you lose your nationalism the problem with the party is that it simply does not understand that political differences is one thing but you know uh making mocking things which people in this country hold very dear yeah is quite another thing now these idiots think that by mocking those things they are actually going to be winning political brownie points they're actually digging the ditch even deeper for them to serious conversation I don't I don't think that's what he meant I think what he meant to say is exactly what he means he didn't quote him no he didn't quote him because he said something different no he said they were injured I agree on the language but the fact is I think the question the macro question is more important you've lost 20 people 20 of our fellow citizens are soldiers in galwan somebody he did not mention Galvan he didn't mention the year no he spoke about in that when he when that he was making he was making I noticed for a fact now", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-19", "text": "making he was making I noticed for a fact now the thing is that we hold nehru responsible for 62 and rightly so the political leadership should be held responsible why don't we hold the political leadership responsible it was a strategic political failure in galwan not a military failure that's the issue about China I agree with you I think incident again are you going to compare was it the army or was it the political okay ship we'll get derailed but let me just there was not number one if the isi guy was coming it was part of an investigation team which was coming should have been allowed there was nothing wrong in it because there was no sensitive area in which they were going number one we asked them that they said we want to send an investigating team we said okay fine you should have said then who will not have a case out there now because you want them we will send our evidence to them um either you say that look it was and and it probably was the isi was pretty", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-20", "text": "was and and it probably was the isi was pretty much in the loop on what that was all about was you know so the point is but if you are going to if somebody has to investigate a crime then it has to be that investigation investigate the crime okay let's read that even at pathankot energy was put in not the army unit the Army units I agree with this scene in that I don't think there was anything particularly objectionable with what he said but given his it's not what he said it's how it appears appears exactly I'm not looking at the content here you remember that thing he said about Modi but the BJP used it against him and now everybody thinks what he was saying this what you know what he learned from his past mistakes victimization that he has about the Indian media you won't do this if you actually see if tomorrow akhilesh starts a yatra or if Mamta starts a yatra nobody will give so much coverage they get unimaginable uh coverage uh", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-21", "text": "so much coverage they get unimaginable uh coverage uh in in the media but he's still upset the coverage also that Rahul gets unfairly is night after night Rahul is asked questions not as much as the Prime Minister I think that is wrong rahul's not running this country he's held responsible for mistakes and he's holding him responsible tonight Anand is with me a complete act that media is ignoring immediately he has his favorite band of journalists he carries them around for example I'll give you an example and tessin is here now with last couple of days a story has broken that the adivasis were completely against but Congress ruled chattisgarh government was allowing adani Enterprises to mine millions of tons of coal from its forests from a congress rule state take it to Rajasthan to generate power another Congress rule state journalists clarification so don't say that the media is playing tense for but but once again one wrong does not justifying if you feel that there's something wrong in", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-22", "text": "justifying if you feel that there's something wrong in chattisgarh which by the way that cold project I'm a little aware of it is a central government it's under the cold again it's not the project testing it's not this guy has been saying politics is a lot about perception I agree how do you manage the perception I agree how have they managed the perception when you say without thinking what you are saying then obviously another perception but I'm just disagreeing that the victim thing that's not true he is victimized as a perception battle May what happened in Maharashtra tell me has udhav lost the perception battle has shinde won the perception battle can I say this since I come from since you are from Maharashtra I think and I'm going to be very upfront here one I think this aligns with the shift Cena are you saying it now you should allow me 30 seconds of laughter yeah it's harming because the core Congress vote look Congress loses votes when a regional party", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-23", "text": "Congress vote look Congress loses votes when a regional party grows it stands up against the BJP win lose Congress loses its relevance number one so your co-worker who is not a chefsina voter is now suddenly thinking it's okay to go to shifts you know so you'll lose your importance number one number two I don't understand and I'm saying this very openly on that Metro issue okay the high court till that point they cut the tree's house against it why do you want to cut so many trees you could have figured out a way they've already cut their trees 47 trees the High Court ruled ngt ruled Supreme Court ruled again you're going for those 47 trees and you're stalling development people get against you which Aditya was doing I am not I don't like this but he is good 10 seconds [Laughter] Congress is not anti-development it is going to destroy the state this old pensions reverting to Old I'll tell you why Mohan Singh was a votary for junking this old", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-24", "text": "Singh was a votary for junking this old pension scheme and getting the new pension scheme Montague is on record saying there is no bigger freebie than this old pension scheme it will destroy the state it's gonna you know 78 of the tax revenue of Himachal is going to go and paying for the whole pension scheme here 78 percent now I want you to repeat because you have specifically said that Congress is pro-development scheme why have you gone back the Prime Minister only to be to be fair to uh uh your husband no but first let your husband talk then that's the sanskari way of doing it he has been telling me since the alliance was formed this is not good for us actually he's been saying this for five six years the point which you make the political point is but where you are missing out in that congress party no longer has that fire in the belly that I want to recover my political ground but what is this because a fantastic win for congress", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-25", "text": "what is this because a fantastic win for congress it's a win in a Hindi Heartland State it's a win in a state with 95 Hindu population 65 upper caste population and it's a win also on niche of nationalism remember Priyanka Gandhi's campaign was against agneepath now you can agree disagree with agnivir it was a campaign foreign let's go back on we'll come to the finances Congress should celebrate just to note Himachal was the one state where Rahul did not go and campaign has already gone on air to say that um smiles when he says Priyanka and then of course everybody this is a fact why are we doing this let's not do that so you know the thing is that you talked about seven minutes did this whole talk about you know celebration the the BJP gets criticized hell of a lot that um you do this when even it's a minor Victory the Congress on the other hand is so used to being a Shia whipping itself that they forget that", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-26", "text": "being a Shia whipping itself that they forget that it is reason enough to celebrate I'm sorry Congress headquarters and I'll tell you what the problem is and and I'll add to what you say and I agree to this sometimes you feel that media is not being fair to you which I agree but had you gone 8 pm to Congress headquarters everyone would have cut in okay people would have cut into as much time as PM would have he's PM but visuals are there it's a visual game why is getting the coverage it's getting the coverage social media media picks it up local media you know it is uniting India against the Congress actually I think to some extent and I think it's got a momentum going where now how much ever you attack a t-shirt choose I think for the Congress supporter or the anti-bjp supporter there is something to look forward to and the character is motivated exactly what the BJP wanted I don't want a United opposition they want Congress as an opportunity you know this whole thing of", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-27", "text": "Congress as an opportunity you know this whole thing of Congress is understand Bharat you know it sounds fabulous for the BJP I'm you know that oh there's this catchy slogan and all I don't think the BJP was the congressman Congress is the congresses no that's a different thing I bet you maybe is being funded by BJ which Insider knowledge they would not want anything like you know sushant sarin used to say there is only one what do you mean he's still here he's alive yeah he used to say because the organization I'm talking about died used to say there is only one alphabet separating isi and Isis there is only one alphabet separating b j y and b j p b jatra I thought he's talking about yeah only y and p are different I'm telling you this is fully BJP funded okay BJP funded okay and I have seen all bubbles spend hours trying to figure out a good acronym s you couldn't figure out you know what and you know what", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-28", "text": "couldn't figure out you know what and you know what I know what they're talking about I've known okay tell me what about that they came up with a thing called a gandu yeah I picked it up the first and I I don't know where I said it right maybe it was on those days I used to be on Facebook when I said okay are they really serious and they also came up with Pakistan Institute of strategic status yeah this I got from Bangalore let me tell you I loved it it's such a pretty silk one so after I got it then my cousin noticed she said oh it's a Gucci design so I I said is it so yeah so I said no it's a gyachi I bought it because it was so pretty and only when she started she said Smitha what have you done your birthday perfume [Laughter] hermesis wife was carrying a goyard and I tweeted that and caring about a goyard bag which is a very super exclusive bag like the price range so", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-29", "text": "a very super exclusive bag like the price range so the Chanel is very obviously channel channel so Chanel is very obvious Louis Vuitton is very obviously so now being a samajwadi and you know you're carrying a goyard bag on the day of your swearing in soon how do you know it was not a knockoff no why would she have a knockoff see that's enough when mayawati used to carry a smart leather bag right but if a mahua or um used to actually carry it to give the empowerment messages exactly yeah it was it was done political yeah so those statues having the handbag is deliberate why not why not to motivate a crowd she would say manager handbag it was a message of financial impact what a joke it was right before the before it became Politically Incorrect to laugh about uh but about some things it wasn't something to laugh about like if you if a mayavati or anybody else for that matter for even from the BJP is to wear", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-30", "text": "that matter for even from the BJP is to wear diamond earrings you laugh but if a sophisticated Congress person is to wear diamond earrings [Music] across the road oh God yes that's another thing he's from Stevens and then jnu and then continue and then Cambridge yeah I was talking about my new house and how I'm doing it up and suddenly I don't know how the accent changes like Abby you know a true English gentleman only has wooden floors marble is meant to be for bathrooms that sounds like you know who I know right Lord no it sounds like a politician that we will not discuss about shall we yes the the flick yes but he's the chef but if you are to discuss shampoo then please discuss conditioner also Mr Simple they come as a pair shampoo and conditioner is which brand is this yeah exclusive yeah so if you want to Burkin again cost it can be anything between yeah 10 lakhs starting what to 30 40 likes depending on the skin", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-31", "text": "starting what to 30 40 likes depending on the skin [Music] but that's not the point foreign [Applause] so he she gets down carrying this book in bag and obviously you know like people noticed and Indian women politicians underdress as a rule we had sushma swaraj and we had all these things also she wears gorgeous sarees but you'll never find a dress also it's the sari that is gorgeous you never wear jewelry jewelry or even the handbags it's like the Indian politicians yeah so it's always underdressed whereas Pakistani women politicians are always dressed to the knives now she gets down carrying the uh bag and everybody talks about bhagavati bhagwati and things like that she comes down and she checks in into the hotel and we're a whole bunch of foreign betas to do foreign beat whole bunch of foreign beat journalists out there waiting to interview her she knows the Ruckus which her bag has created and she's wearing designer glasses everything so we", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-32", "text": "and she's wearing designer glasses everything so we go inside to interview one by one one by one we are we go inside to interview her and what do we see the Birkin has a a chair of its own yeah wow that's true and it's not just a chair it was a couch that's called yeah that's true I really said I had soft ladies wow that's true always have a will always have a chair or stool next to it huh that's a requirements it was pride of she did not see what happened yeah and then somebody obviously said a sent a message or whatever and it seemed like that we don't know what the truth is but she put it down firstly you don't put a Louis Vuitton on the floor right so she put it down and uh by the way they were pro-nazi with uh the family oh that's like saying BMW Volkswagen is all the German industrialists were pronouns yeah except for one who who helped the Nazi prisoners Escape he had", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-33", "text": "who helped the Nazi prisoners Escape he had a steel uh production uh tender except for one the rest all of them steel was all group group was the arch Nazi was one of them was a rival to crew let's talk about what was the statements is no no seriously this one this woman who told horribly corrupt right ten percent you know people have forgotten that Mr Ten Percent those who don't follow the book Fatima that's right on the father's murder when she became prime minister's daughter that's a different uh someone came and gifted ten thousand dollar Rolex and he accepted it's like you know it's not even something else he has taken stuff worth some couple of billion uh Pakistani Rupees yeah yeah and and some obscene amount and paid just a fraction of the money Imran Khan is the future of Pakistan no no I hope he is and you know don't do this again against the most upright honest politician who's the only who's the only spark of future that Pakistani", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-34", "text": "only who's the only spark of future that Pakistani looks like devil's advocate for beloved [Music] foreign the rumor back then and even later was that um Benazir realized asha's a liability she had kept him out because it was very clear in 2007 that she's coming back to Power she had kept him out he was not involved in any political decision making then she comes back she dies and he takes over the party he produces this will which you know was pulled out of thin air uh that this party I am going to inherit the party along with my son then who shot it also know that the Isis at that point of time he was on the phone with her and he went on telling because the sister the girl was watching uh the mother on TV yeah he told her because there are crowds outside so this is what the the reporters who were in Islamabad at that time covering benazir's Indian reporters who were in Islamabad covering benazi's return to uh it to Pakistan right she", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-35", "text": "benazi's return to uh it to Pakistan right she had a death wish I think you know she had this father fixation that you know this like the father there are many women politicians who have that I'm convinced of this so she she came back and there were many Indian journalists who were in Pakistan to cover that in event they had gone to the location where she was supposed to go right and there the the talk which all they are saying is this that that Benazir was inside and bhaktawar was watching and uh zardari supposed to have told the daughter tell Benazir to come out so it was that Toyota vehicle she came up and then the shot happens and she's supposed to have died because of that Toyota hatch you know that thing that hit her thing yeah at the back of her head and she died which is because there was a bottom blast also there was a blast but what was shocking was those of us who were watching it live when it was happening within minutes", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-36", "text": "watching it live when it was happening within minutes the blood everything was cleaned out who does that who cleans out all the evidence evidence and um joint venture something is not right boss when Pakistan nobody dies normally I think out there like nobody very clearly a strange country so imagine how scared beloved was but that doesn't uh explain why he's there and if my mother worked for the peace between India and Pakistan his mom wanted more what his mom was the one who said rebooked Rajiv Gandhi right initially remember yeah initially she worked out the peace deal with Rajiv Gandhi then siachen started and then she turned no no no yeah happened in 84. yeah yeah um Rajiv Gandhi met her in 89. you see he was an apostle of peace you want to blame Muslims for especially a brave Muslim woman you can't deal with the fact that a bridge listen she was no bloody Brave woman let me tell you a couple of things about her she was the most", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-37", "text": "a couple of things about her she was the most subservient to the Pakistan Army no she wasn't enough who has taken on the Pakistan Army directly frontally every time he's come into power yeah not his brother his brothers are told this uh this woman Benazir and her husband have been the most subservient as far as the Pakistan Army is concerned they are the most pro-establishment people even now one of the reasons why bilawal is saying what he's saying is apparently because the Pakistan Army is now changing its policy and wants to get back into those okay so now the Punjabi versus Hindi he likes nawashi do you remember no no I don't like no yeah yeah I don't like nawashri is Punjabi so he's going to support the punjabis but you see what he doesn't understand is that zadari [Music] they were so skilled at manipulating the army that you thought they were going no no no when in fact they were taking on I don't think", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-38", "text": "when in fact they were taking on I don't think is manipulating the Army at any stage no no she was a responsible pakistanis have a very low sense of respect for people who look a particular manner in politics it doesn't matter what a person looks like so nawashari was forever trolled for that though he had that is one small minuscule no she'll still get elected yeah you understood but Amaya anybody who looks like a mayawati or a Lalu will not get elected this is the land of Gandhi look at how Gandhi correct just look at the difference absolutely yeah yeah so you know they they had suited booted uh politicians all along it's only the elite feudal Elite big business they enter politics out here you look at the kind of people just look at the Prime Minister I forgot but one second you know that's all that is where he has come from look at the hypocrisy of our politician I don't mind them wearing what they do but for example", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-39", "text": "mind them wearing what they do but for example chidambaram fellow has I don't know how many billions billions of dollars he will come in a dhoti under this thing Parliament but when he goes to Davos he'll be wearing those same way how's that hypocrisy if you go to your grandparents house you'd probably not dress in a suit you will wear a whatever kurta pajama if for a certain language it's appropriate clothing but more than I have come to my grandson in India it's also about the image now you go into uh image of course you go into a rural area you want the people to identify with you that's democracy that's democracy I I just I just wanted to point out that Anand was actually taking a homophobic job at me and how I dress on different foreign [Music] foreign [Laughter] they have a right to say it and you address them that way but say that everyone should be addressed as only day or a gender neutral I think that's if I'm", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-40", "text": "or a gender neutral I think that's if I'm okay being called a he which I am that's fine and so so if I don't want to be called the he say I I think I want to be College where is this there's a wonderful meme where uh a bike a man on a bike says a motorbike that identifies itself as a bicycle is just one Tour de France it's a bit like that I suppose but if it's not doing harm to anyone else in the US because children very early in age are wondering whether they are he she is and then some of them are being indoctrinated so very early they want to go in for a sex change and all because when you're just six seven eight you're still not sure some of them are experimenting and you know it's like I don't identify as John I identify as Jane when they're six or seven when you're six or seven and they are being allowed to have gender reassignment surgery yeah and nobody's talking about the damage that", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-41", "text": "yeah and nobody's talking about the damage that that see you have to have a certain mental maturity I think once you reach 18 or adult age there must be if you fail to find a partner you it's it's very easy for you to find fault saying maybe maybe a woman trapped in a man's body and I need this thing before what used to happen was before gender reassignment surgery you had to undergo rigorous psychological testing before which it was okay do you know Tehran was the is the gender reassignment capital of the uh of Asia yeah maybe even I wasn't aware because they banned homosexuality but they were fine with transvestism and cross-dressing because they're like okay can I ask you a serious question when did you know from the beginning I think I knew right from as far as I can dream I didn't know what it was to be gay but the moment somebody framed key there is something called games like oh okay so maybe the first issue was I didn't know what sexual", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-42", "text": "maybe the first issue was I didn't know what sexual attraction was and you know that's what I'm saying I'm asking a serious question sign so pre-puberty or post puberty you knew waypost puberty uh I think till I was about uh 16 17 I didn't know what it was being gay I and then retrospectively to another guy at 15 16. no I wasn't attracted till I was uh 15 16. uh but uh I only used to hang out with the girls before that okay okay because I would love to do no but in those days [Laughter] for example in our families and I've seen it in many cases you know if there are two or three girls in the house and there's a small kid boy kid he also tries to identify himself with his sisters right right and then you suddenly say that okay this guy is probably a gender fluid whatever [\u00a0__\u00a0] you call it can you say here is how stupid is that is different they are telling you to not assign a", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-43", "text": "is different they are telling you to not assign a gender and let the kids try every gender and see what they fit into that's not yeah and if you have a problem blame it on gender first they wanted you to blame it on privilege and lack of wealth now they want you to blame it on gender you're stuck again is it is what this is happening is it statistically significant I mean a lot of this is happening or are you just talking it's to the point even if it is one percent it is statistically significant of course every life is important but even with percentage new new issue which can you imagine how many hundreds of thousands of people were talking about okay even if you're talking about say 0.5 percent of America America's Got 360 million people so uh one percent is uh 3.6 million you're still looking at about uh uh 1.75 million people who are affected by this and I am also meeting with I mean I've met with you but overseas Indian parents yeah", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-44", "text": "I've met with you but overseas Indian parents yeah are terribly worried Indian they call Indians in India you know that's the way that they think that you know one chittar and we'll sort this out you know forget about for centuries yeah okay 99 of the cases so you know we only used to eat for the fork and knife and when you eat with a fork and knife your uh your fork which the easing hand is always on your right so you know you uh left so it was normal to eat so much so you know left uh where was he eating that Focus knife I can't I don't like my hands listen until and unless I eat with my hands I just can't taste the food yeah it's horrible you can't I mean like the Biryani yeah it it if you eat it with a spoon it affects the taste of the business guys I got troll eating Biryani oh yeah yeah that's true you got that Biryani from uh the gender right how are you eating it with the", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-45", "text": "the gender right how are you eating it with the fork and if that was not why I strolled he was told because right-wing Biryani the gender is a BJP and um who am I to say no to good Biryani shamelessly I said butter chicken brilliant spicy but nice very nice absolutely foreign a number of these luminaries were there part of that I think we were traveling in a bus and all these guys and the pakistanis were shocked because these guys were from different political parties and they were having so much of fun with each other yeah talking to each other laughing eggs they were shocked because they had never seen politicians from across the aisle uh you know engage with each other in this map politicians do yeah what is what is annoying is that these journalists and Hangers On who are who become holier than Downs on behalf of their boss the bosses but that's what politics should be you must have different points but why are journalists so divided and", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-46", "text": "different points but why are journalists so divided and some journalists feel like spokesperson not only in journalists okay in your family in my family is the same thing have you lost a lot of friends since 2004 absolutely yeah it's like you know they suddenly it's not just lost friends it's the viciousness of it all there are people who actually go and say I can't be in the same room as this woman and these are people that you know you have traveled with your kids have learned swimming this with each other you they some of them went to the same schools same colleges thing I went through for eating Biryani harmlessly I have never been told so much and I was wondering why it is so toxic and it's so scary I'll tell you you know there's this Sachin pilot lunch every year he has this uh and he's you know he's called journalists all along and everybody goes for those things across the Divide whatever he doesn't call politicians it's only for", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-47", "text": "whatever he doesn't call politicians it's only for journalists so no regardless of whether he's in power or not he does this he gets the cooks from Rajasthan and the food is like you know like straight from the village does that and then Huda used to do that yeah I don't know oh God so I would go for the SAG right so but this is how are we friends with her yeah yes yes of course you can of course whatever you want I'm not judgmental but this is the point is that suddenly they start asking how's she here oh my God are you serious no way and these are people I have been going there you've been going there and we've been going there for over 10 years how come suddenly how's she here oh my God and this is the same thing with Whispers or open you know openly so and then they would they'll collect and they would and I was like was I part of this and was I judging other people it makes me think then that was I", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-48", "text": "other people it makes me think then that was I at any point of time in that group and was I judging this group you know and then I realized there was no groupism before this everybody would interact with everybody there was palibato there were very few we weren't so many journalists because now there's this proliferation right but it's the same it's become so divided and it's my family is so divided and journalists don't stand up for each other yeah I did not agree with your point of view as if you say if I'm a journalist ideas so people actually saying ice cream you could get arrested too and so now this cancel culture happens again right so now this is another thing which is happening which is so annoying and I keep looking at the BJP guys and saying for decades you guys got canceled and now you're doing the same thing and their line is so you know the whole the uh your uh it doesn't end a cycle yeah but let me", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-49", "text": "uh it doesn't end a cycle yeah but let me tell you one thing and I'm I always restrain myself but it becomes increasingly very difficult to keep standing up for these doofers I I do it yeah but if I was in politics if I was in journalism I actually probably wouldn't to be very honest because they're so hateful they are so vengeful still you have to stand for them so you know yes we were talking once uh you know off camera and off the podcast we were talking about the lit Fest how divided those little things have become and you were saying that you know you have these like he would say doofus on the right side too on the right wing side and there now you have a right-wing lit Fest and you have a left-wing I call it so these are the Rowdy right and the Looney left but it doesn't make any difference right you it's it's a it's a political ideology it's what you think it's how you go and vote", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-50", "text": "what you think it's how you go and vote it's how you you know you can you can have an argument about it but two points one if I'm in trouble I'm not going to go to Modi or to Rahul Gandhi and say pull me out of trouble help me out I'll come to you I'll go to him right this people have forgotten that look friendship and politics are two separate things that makes these things stand up for each other exactly all stand up that's over we have to and that's something generous when I see the tweets I'm not saying anyone in particular you think they are more all in the spokesperson of the party and many of them are out of work journalists also the most venomous ones YouTubers YouTubers but you know what surprises me what surprises he has very very uh good relations with some of these out of work journals but but listen I have told you this before I am very open about those relationships I will defend them to the", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-51", "text": "open about those relationships I will defend them to the teeth no they stood with him even if they are wrong even if they're wrong I will defend them because they are my friends I have always said this friendship over ideology yeah I agree and I live that I agree I love that too yeah yeah so do I yeah so I get trolled from either side yeah oh she's your friend oh he's your friend you know like so for example it was at my house for uh dinner once and he was wearing a hijab right and then I came on a date with me in hijab so yeah so then I some one of the one of my friends who have known her for 15 20 years she doesn't know what kind of people do you call to your house why because she doesn't agree with the idea that you know he wore a hijab so it's an insult to Islam I said he's a free speech uh absolutist and um am I judging you you do what you have to if he's", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-52", "text": "you you do what you have to if he's if you get insulted because he's at my house that's your problem boss yeah you know so but what surprises me even more is when you know you're talking about the lit Fest no lit Fest is supposed to be an intellectual exercise yeah if you're going to say that there is I am only going to present one set of views and I'm still a liberal then I think that's an antithesis of liberalism but they're not liberal I know no side is liberals [Music] yeah let's separate these two Jaipur lit Fest is very clear that they will not invite anybody from the other side of the island and who sponsors jlf and who sponsors are very important to go check who sponsors he is branded or sanghi so Z is sponsoring pondicherry lit Fest they went out of their way they went out of their way to invite people from the left they the first time they invited nram nram said no because of your", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-53", "text": "they invited nram nram said no because of your Hindus associations I will not attend uh uh the they then pressurized the French Consulate in uh uh Pandi to cancel giving the venues for the event and things like that which they did uh which they did the French Consulate got involved in Indian politics in pondicherry uh and uh it wasn't for the lack of trying that nobody from the left was invited the left not only refused to come they went out of the way to sabotage it so that's what I'm saying sometimes when you see there is a Nuance difference for example three novels his third novel has now come out fourth uh has he been invited to jlf it's the same way as you know what forget about me my books I have been read by uh you know uh people who are closing nine ten people I said it will be the 11th man to have read the book but there are authors who've uh yeah 100 000 books he's sold in one year or", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-54", "text": "yeah 100 000 books he's sold in one year or his publisher enormously Vikram sampath they never called to jlf yeah it's crazy Vikram they called this time but they will see they will always get the one token and that token one will be subjected to the you saw how Shazia almi was subjected to attack basically okay 100 I'll still stand up for you yes you will you will get Mysore park to me stand up foreign [Laughter] on the day was to be elevated Indira Gandhi said no you know the reason he attended the funeral of goalkar that was his only crying a high court judge was to be elevated because of his sexual orientation was not elevated no I don't think it is because one second one second the user's partner is a reason there are many heterosexual judges who have Partners one or three Indians tell me something why should anybody who claims to be a Hindu be homophobic I don't know I don't know because in in the", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-55", "text": "don't know I don't know because in in the in the Hindu cultural kind of a thing sexual orientation was supposed to be a very natural thing yeah it was never held against somebody what you know this is a natural thing yeah it was written on those levels Victoria Victorian culture has been has happened before when you hit puberty you were taken you were shown these Temple things and saying yes now the thing is today when they go look at it I noticed this uh when my Infamous clip happened that is when it struck me they were going there looking at it going it's me we've actually become more Victorian now we've become Victorious and we were such an open where did the Kama Sutra come from which land originated the Kama Sutra it's from this land oh I don't know why we become such prudes and to troll Deepika but Deepika is not just on bigotry it's also on controlling women's clothings no no but let's be honest here but Bollywood is being", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-56", "text": "but let's be honest here but Bollywood is being trolled because it is even anti-christian now all the villains were Michael Roberts all right someone may not like Shahrukh they may not like the big I agree with that point and you have a right to agree you even have a right to say look I don't want to watch this movie when an ex-cbi director rules Deepika puts her pictures and says why is a husband allowing her to be molested I think that's crossing a line yeah yeah that is not acceptable correct when the state when the home minister who's whose job is to defend Liberty he's not a super sensor comes down and says I will ban this movie Under No Authority your personal opinion does not like the movie sushant likes it that's fine give your opinion on Twitter you can't roll people like a movie don't go and see it don't like a book don't you don't like this podcast don't watch it yeah but don't say I will burn down a and I", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-57", "text": "but don't say I will burn down a and I because I don't like it that is unacceptable and we all have to stand up for this and a home minister doing Congress your views are so against what the Congress philosophy is but why actually [Laughter] and talking about Liberties why couldn't they talk about it in in Bombay it's like people going to the old Soviets you know now going to Beijing and talking about demography why why in Calcutta why why couldn't because both of them are from Bombay like film festival and then to pretend that it's not political in nature they were reading out no but both of them I think basically somebody decided that Deepika needed to be given comeuppance for what she did during those jnu protests okay so they found some reason to go after her and ever since then she spoke about mental health and any time mental health the presumption that a good looking person on a successful person will not have mental health mental health issues so they just but have", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-58", "text": "mental health mental health issues so they just but have you seen that but remember remember I don't want to use the word vulgar ever because subjective but it was very off-putting the kind of song I think Deepika looks gorgeous but when I was 18 I probably would have used that sorry he would have used the song Excuse me at 25 I don't like I didn't think anything much of the song right so between 18 and 25 it's not the farak music I agree Sunday yeah for a whole lot of women because they could never get that of course Kamal Hassan is not really hot but they you know what yeah so that the second one is silsila the the illegitimate Romance of silsila is something that you could never get in life now so then what what you can hear those songs now that Chemistry Between Amitabh and Rekha I think my generation at least no no that it was a good film very very well at the box office the movie bombed because it went into his social", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-59", "text": "the movie bombed because it went into his social mode yeah do you know just like yeah yeah that but yeah but it bombed because of that particular reason yeah that you know it was too ahead of its times and even silsila but imagine for jayavatan like she was she strolled so much because she doesn't like the paparazzi she he come on you have to YouTube and see the way she she I know she deals with yeah anybody trying to take a selfie with her she'll Snapchat she says Paul I hope you fall or something like that she said to her Pap um I believe there is a history to to that photographer or or the photographer Who belongs to us how do you deal with Paparazzi I have no Paparazzi but you know I I am quite fascinated when I travel how do you deal with paparazzi am racism such a bland I was expecting nobody I've seen me on page three thank God but you have to see I mean Paparazzi was never", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-60", "text": "you have to see I mean Paparazzi was never there for journalists but you bring up an important I'm not on page three because of my horizontal expense so basically there is uh there are a lot of people on page three who because of their horizontal expense yeah because you if you are on page three if you pay money so you so they go to uh one of these Camellia familiars and all that they went to Camellias there's a huge fight that's broken out between Magnolia and Camellia okay because the Camellia Valas have all been West Delhi types who didn't want the Magnolia ones coming and using their Club okay and what's happened in Magnolia is they don't want the best daily types coming into Magnolia at all for anything because they come in South Korea to dry and things like that this podcast is going to be a blockbuster so it's that it's the same thing which 20 years ago probably Singapore had when you know when they decided or maybe 30 years ago that X number", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-61", "text": "they decided or maybe 30 years ago that X number of people of Indian origin X number of malays X number of Chinese that is how they decide on their housing policies so they moved there and now how do you like you have a certain way of doing things right you you know like suddenly you're going into the uh the thing and your Maids are entering the service are entering and they are carrying big Bazaar K uh no not big Bazaar it is from what food food you Bank your grocery from Food Hall so you know these things cause trouble in these sophisticated areas so lower upper classy so you know lower upper classy is Road okay middle upper classes and Golf Links lower upper classy is who did not want a Metro to come up here yeah they didn't want a Metro they didn't want a Metro to come up near their colony because you know then the hoipaloi comes in there yeah then you cannot control the kind of you know the the gentle crowd that you have right", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-62", "text": "know the the gentle crowd that you have right now so you will get the unwashed masses coming so they didn't want a metro station difference elitism yeah which is completely wrong okay explain now please yeah that's right Elite is someone who's you know who's come up who's meritorious who excels in his or her field who's absolutely professional articulate gentlemanly gentle movements foreign would you call him Elite the fellow has more money than any Indian politician you can think of it's not to do with money it's to do with what you do you know your professionalism should understand this better than foreign she's written this book on finance and about how women should take advantage not just financially independent to understand how to manage your finances most women don't right like your mom wouldn't do it my mom does it very well but okay I also lost my father very early okay so most remain uh don't do it and it's not of a certain vintage most women would either hand it over to their", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-63", "text": "vintage most women would either hand it over to their fathers or hand it over to their brothers or spouses when they are able to do it you know you do it and you know flatter your uh father or flatter the whoever is the paternal head in your family to say you you I trust you completely God forbid it a situation comes where you realize that you're not you're at odds with them you're finished right so I was telling her I said you know I am guilty of that I I cannot think finances and most women don't we are not equipped to handle that Pythagoras Theorem yeah you see the way you are brought up number one within the family yeah number one number two in your school system also nobody teaches you any of this and I think that's important but I'll tell you I'll give Raul Gandhi credit for one thing for all the trolling that you do for Rahul Gandhi when the no this is true when the direct benefit or transfer scheme started", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-64", "text": "is true when the direct benefit or transfer scheme started the pilot project or they were working out various things he insisted that the money go directly into the account of the women and what is what does what the study then showed was women spend more on nutrition but the men would spend on alcohol so nutritionist food was was actually you know women would spend on the right choices that that would help the family grow and would bring in prosperity men would squander that money and that's a survey that's a government survey by the up and that's where now DBT has become so big and Prime Minister Modi takes credit that was something that he insisted on even all these self-help you know but Modi was doing this even as chief minister of Gujarat yeah opposed the DBT through if you pick up wine formally but even if he does and he gives up his uh his whatever unemployment I don't think he's unemployed I think he's uh lecturing in two universities right yes but I", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-65", "text": "uh lecturing in two universities right yes but I think if he does uh come in I think it's great for the country you need more professionals and Optics wise I think was like doing good right I think it was fabulous I think BJP made a mistake attacking him I know I know you find out what I can't I used to be hot now he's not sure yeah who finds him and of course a whole bunch of people when he was in that list if you remember the nancok list that there was this whole thing that you know the anti-writers I'm not going to say left wing because some of them are not like shashita Omar Abdullah raghuram Rajan let's critique the list I don't find uh in my expert homosexual opinion any of them of lasting after men I can tell you I do not find shashita rule hot how can you decide on men who are hot why are you minimizing my lived experience you're carrying out verbal genocide any of these", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-66", "text": "you're carrying out verbal genocide any of these guys whom you don't find what I'm sure they'll be very relieved yes I'm sure they will but if that is only selling point is that he's fair and you know in this country I have a huge objections you know growing up in South Indian households is a different concept of good looks and if you like a South Indian in the north there's this whole conflict that comes in your mind because what who is good looking yeah so I remember going once you know and uh we're sitting in this all cousins and aunts and uncles and things and so then this guy comes with this thick mustache and you know like that Curly curly curly hair and everybody found him good looking guy so it's this whole thing so raghuram Rajan would be like mylapur brahmins will not find him good looking but then the others do okay now let's put in the spotlight tell a male politician you find good looking um no no I find", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-67", "text": "politician you find good looking um no no I find the only George Clooney good looking sorry this is politically correct answer this is Indian politician you find good looking I don't Charming they're very Charming I would like top of my head I would say that uh Javier shergill is very Charming wow super Charming he's a really nice guy SM Krishna was very Charming the guy who read the Portuguese no no but but that was in his old and I know you people will laugh but I think amitsha is very Charming he is he's got a very affable kind of yeah so people may not like it is very well read he he talks so much Gyan um Modi even as chief minister was very Charming he could talk to you about Singapore politics he could talk about America politicians and I found found it irritating at one point of time the first time I met Raul Gandhi was that there were these bunch of journals we had been invited this was 2012 I think", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-68", "text": "we had been invited this was 2012 I think elections up elections maybe I I can't get the date uh the year correct there were up elections okay so uh akhilesh uh was uh you know chief minister candidate or whatever at that time that he could be so we were a bunch of journals and he was talking like you know the larger picture and then some very pertinent questions were asked that you keep talking about New Blood should come in youngsters should come in and actually Javier and all were one of those and probably you also you know the lateral entries young people who didn't have you didn't come from families who were congressmen and all they were so he had this idea at that time and at that time some of the questions but people around you are all these uh and why aren't you part of the Manmohan Singh government nothing he could talk so my like he would keep giving golmaal answers and I was like he's giving he's not getting one lessons [Laughter]", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-69", "text": "giving he's not getting one lessons [Laughter] he's not Charming he's harming things no he's not he's not Charming at all you know what they say the road what was the question Charming Charming he also speaks very nicely there are several he's politically very small politically very soft yeah but they are always polite they're not nasty no but this this but he has endeared he may say the nastiest thing about Modi sha and all but he will say it so politely that is the most corrupt person I've ever met Amit Shah is because he's not tough on on me but see I'll tell you you must criticize he was very genial right people across very gentle speaks very well and there are many others I can like Name Across the political divide but you know Congress spokespersons across I mean in the past I don't like okay personally but there are intellect the depth that they had the way Rajesh pilot yeah that is how you should criticize you must", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-70", "text": "yeah that is how you should criticize you must criticism you know I remember once you know was answering some questions to do with some debate on I think it was NDTV used to come in Star News and some guy called up and asked him something very rudely replied so politely and sweetly and gently no entitlement no nothing he's a self-made man who Rajesh pilot I think Rajesh pirate was one of those people I still remember as being one of the even Indira Gandhi I think Indira Gandhi people used to forget you know you know she had very strong likes and dislikes maybe if she didn't like a certain journalist but my memory of Indira Gandhi on two three Republic days was Republic Day and you could just talk to her no but that your weight you are a civil servant uh child correct yes civil servant daughter you had pride of place in that little thing and also Republic Day remember she she started owning Republic Day Republic day was not meant for prime", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-71", "text": "Republic Day Republic day was not meant for prime ministers it was meant for president and army I mean uh sorry the forge she after 1971 decided by this is something that I will own so she started coming in the Jeep and there was a role henceforth for Prime Ministers of India at Republic Day otherwise till then there was no role for prime ministers on Republic day she was like 71 War I'm owning this and I will have a place so you know let's not go into Mrs Gandhi and things like that and also house when you make a judgment of similarly when he says also realize I have reached the seniority when they are probably polite to me nice to me I don't know whether they were with the younger lot who were getting into politics maybe they got a rough treatment by them I don't know sometimes these senior politicians don't do it the others are doing it for them you know they're under leagues which is the worst thing those Gatekeepers to politicians are", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-72", "text": "is the worst thing those Gatekeepers to politicians are the worst people ever you know the most insecure people yeah you know it's the way you choose a Rottweiler to guard your house you can either go for a Golden Retriever or Rottweiler a golden retriever won't guard your house the Rottweiler will guard your house let's move forward what do you guys think about G20 that's coming up because there's a lot of criticism by many people that this is turning out to be a G20 is basically talk shop that no no big things get solved that uh there's too much of emphasis things which are happening so one by one what do you think since you are from a think tank s look I think there has been some dilution in what the G20 was all about okay at the time it came in these are the 20 most powerful economies of the world they are supposed to actually set the agenda it's not just the G7 which is like the elite of the elite it's", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-73", "text": "which is like the elite of the elite it's the next big guys right so uh nothing wrong in the concept it's got diluted because a lot of things have got added on it was basically to manage the global economy but then you've added on a whole lot of other stuff onto G20 um but other than that purely from an Indian Point of View now that we have the presidency uh I think we should milk it for whatever it's worth I agree and I don't see any reason why we should not for example if the government and I think the government has the right ideas if they are planning board I don't know 20 or 200 cities or yeah 35 cities if I'm not mistaken in uh to have so you showcase the shoe you showcase the country uh you know so there are a lot of positives that can come out of this one year that you know you are getting so many people from across the even at the airport when I was coming the other day uh they have a separate", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-74", "text": "was coming the other day uh they have a separate counter now for anybody who's traveling which means that there must be a lot of traffic delegates yeah delegates for the G20 what do you think uh so I think it's a good thing I mean I agree with him but um because at the end of the day yeah I mean it will it will bring out a limited amount of things that are positive India's contribution to the world India is now a big player and all that like world has to interact with us so it's not a one-way process you know internally so we will remain poor like for example agricultural reforms ourselves to a middle income economy from you know earning two and a half thousand dollars GDP per capita to 15 000 maybe China is what twelve thousand thirteen thousand we can do it in 10 15 years we could have done it lost these eight years we've lost his eight years because of Congress because of opposition because of you know let me finish because there's only so", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-75", "text": "of you know let me finish because there's only so much you can blame somebody's mindlessness on somebody else of course I have blamed more than anyone else for Congress to say okay we've lost a lot in eight years without attributing a lot of it to the opposition who have supported every bad move of Modi or every U-turn of Modi is I think hypocritical I say whoever is in the opposition and this is the unfortunate part of Indian politics even the BJP did it when they were in order not just only the nucleus not just the GST you name the issue right they opposed it then they realized that this was a good idea so this is uh so I want to blame it only on the congress come on see I'm just saying for him to say no so he lost decade the point which abhijeet was making I think that's a point which actually needs to be stressed that this the job of the people who are in government is to deliver despite the opposition do", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-76", "text": "in government is to deliver despite the opposition do not have the right ideas as far as I'm concerned opposition to the nuclear deal public or private is high treason here I'm very clear about this high treason okay it was deservant of jail term or firing squad that nuclear deal was the best we could have gotten under the circumstances foreign spaces and I read your tweets so G20 let's get back to G20 yes has G20 suffered from Mission creep and has the mission been diluted by all kinds of additional fluff and tamasha and all of that yes because bureaucrats in every country are corrupt and they want to get their business class tickets and useless conferences abroad and their Marriott points or their Starwood points they've already started now some conference have already started yeah exactly and you want to get position and you add positions like Sherpa and this and that and what Harish have been there for Kingdom Come for kingdom come but that doesn't mean business they are the ones", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-77", "text": "come but that doesn't mean business they are the ones who will guide the whole guide silencing the hormones uh I wish I could play Such victim which is brilliant yeah stop being homophobic goddammit so why are you attacking the only South Indian before of course so pure let's leave that aside now you remember till 1984 when I think 84 was the Los Angeles Olympics right Olympics were losing propositions it was a Prestige proposition since then it became a financial model where every city hosting the Olympics used to make a reckon billions of dollars G20 hosting will rake in Bill well hundreds of millions of dollars if not about a billion dollars because of the economies it creates Caterers this that we are waiting for this house it's what all the countries which go to Indonesia what they expect exactly right so it creates a certain economy which is very good for you but in terms of outcomes so I'll let me just come to remember diplomacy has two things", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-78", "text": "me just come to remember diplomacy has two things for uh uh low governance countries that is to say third world countries like India process is important for high governance First World countries uh product is important this will be a process meeting and that's fine now that we're talking about diplomacy art of convincing a journalist that you're right there is one thing on G20 it has 85 percent of the global GDP these 20 countries 75 of the World Trade I think for India to be chairing it even if it's rotational I think it's a big moment because I think Ajit Dover had said it you got to punch equivalent to your weight more ahead of your weight I'm not even saying ahead I'm saying equivalent it gives you an opportunity to set an agenda where 85 of the world GDP is concerned right so you're setting in a way the global agenda now you can argue with your Technique Congress was saying Lotus symbol and now you are putting a difference the prime minister", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-79", "text": "now you are putting a difference the prime minister speaks right he'll be setting an agenda he'll be setting the country's agenda I think that's important I think it's important because India's Regional aspirations are going to clash with China's Global aspirations we know that that's going to happen so I think when you can set that agenda with China going through or a period where now we know that its economy is not uh as good as its claimed to be we the covet vaccines failed they are their own crisis internal crisis I think it's a time for you yeah since turned out to be Duds or complete Duds and I'll tell you about it of the record of what a conversation Anand and I had with somebody else I think this government's done a disservice this government in court by saying oh you can go after the covert vaccines the Indian things you can if you took the vaccine and you're not uh you you got it uh you you fell got a reaction which is no reaction", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-80", "text": "you you fell got a reaction which is no reaction that's come out data wise and you can better no no no Pfizer there is data Indian vaccines you can go after them these vaccines have saved this country yeah this country is on it's not like China because of these vaccines instead of giving them the Bharat then I'm saying this with responsibility you should have stood up for both these companies I am sorry you should have stood up and you're not just saying it because no no I'm not saying it because I am saying this you should have for both the vaccines everywhere which you know like they don't even have yeah and even like just the other day like I met this guy who owns Path Labs and I was saying you know there's no people who owned I met someone the other day who works is that it's so easy to get a covet test done in our country it's always been okay fine we went through a very bad phase during the yeah one second the second", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-81", "text": "very bad phase during the yeah one second the second phase was bad the second papers but it was not as though uh it has been hunky-dory in many of these other countries yeah these westerners what they were trying to do is basically onto India by planting all those stories on India but uh I'm telling you about my daughter every time we have to travel to India at least in the past they would have to go in for a test a test would cost them over a hundred dollars yeah and it would result spend another sixty dollars or fifty dollars stand in line get the test done you don't know when the result is 24 hour window right because you have to board the flight so you're in this tenter hooks all the time is your report going to come before you board the flight or not I think we as a nation we just don't ungrateful uh for both both and punawalas deserve bharatra I've just said it but but it's crazy Defenders this country saved and 70 is got", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-82", "text": "crazy Defenders this country saved and 70 is got serum 30 percent got biotech is countries so tell us what do you think of this because there are some people who are saying that Chinese they should not get their visas to travel anywhere because of this new pandemic which is coming in this tradeemic or whatever it's called yeah there's another thing they're saying now uh even the um kovit is so off our mental space I didn't sleep me and my wife when sorry during the second phase yeah we didn't sleep 20 nights eight minutes because we were arranging oxygen or I'll tell you the truth and truth be told I was getting oxygen from Punjab and Rajasthan into Delhi containers foreign we now know we're not useful yet some people I mean there's still divided medical opinion and blood plasma yeah what we all went on remedies we all went on stairs constantly you know whatsapping me that stay on course stay on course because all these drugs which we which I went through in the", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-83", "text": "these drugs which we which I went through in the second phase they play with your mind they make you think you get random uh thoughts in your mind and he was like you know no stay on course you know and my son don't die on me like you know because it is that it was that bad anyway let's let's change this is just one thing I'm just one thing I was very upset with the Union government was they could have had a real time data thing of seeing which hospitals have beds they could have no hospital will refuse a patient up I even had a stand-up artist who came here comedian and they were talking about how it's really affected their mental health also so do you you put a firewall how do you take it as a joke I take it as a joke I I always think I so my line is always life is brilliant Hakuna Matata that's my line any given time okay or I think I'm privileged I do believe that okay I'm in this opportunity", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-84", "text": "I do believe that okay I'm in this opportunity care and people have a right to questions people should question my life is great okay uh how do you handle the trolls I'm just totally cool with it no but you really take it on come on no no I have fun taking it on yeah but I find that see for me I'll tell you why the trolls are important I actually thank the trolls sometimes because in the middle of all the galleys will be beef eater homo ganja uh [\u00a0__\u00a0] what not what not that too lots of other things which I have no issues with why doesn't it I look at it so when somebody says this no I look in here you want to criticize me you want to go after me go after me on any issue I don't have a problem all you can find is that I don't have hair on my head out of a thousand kalis you will actually one or two times you will get some very informed criticism you don't block people uh", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-85", "text": "some very informed criticism you don't block people uh I most sometimes I do black people like if I'm like if I can't deal with the number of answers I block uh then I block I don't okay my middle name is galidas was the great poet of Sanskrit I am the great uh poet of abuse poet of abuse so I'm galidas you don't engage at all right sushant you don't engage with trolls initially when I used to get trolled I used to you know I didn't have a thick skin at that time now I have a bit of a thick skin firstly second uh the trolling is not so much but uh the third I block anybody who's getting abusive okay right well if you're getting abusive then you know you don't have an argument otherwise you can say whatever you want to say but my response will only come I'll see RK foreign giving people like that mileage and giving them followers great fun of perversity in India called a homosexual a pervert and", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-86", "text": "in India called a homosexual a pervert and a congress spokespersonal journalist and a medical professional and a medical professional laughed and added to my uh to the gaslighting and abuse correct you tell me because you've picked up on these fact Checkers so-called fact Checkers these so-called fact Checkers real life yeah fake fact Checkers I would have to charge them to for them to even dare to interact with me I'm telling you honestly they're such doofers yeah but Twitter is free also everything one I removed because you were factually right the other one it's still there because I stand up for it because he a case was done under him for him calling someone hate Monger I said look that's ridiculous I mean come on you know if that's so but that guy is abusive he's been wrong three four times but um he's picked on me three four times and he's been wrong foreign but he never apologizes he's got no sense of propriety left so he would never apologize because he", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-87", "text": "propriety left so he would never apologize because he knows anyone actually which is a very Noble thing to do he immediately by a sorry worker you know the Pura you know everyone who says sorry or apologize apologizes he is branded sabarkar for whatever reason so he made a word play out of that as well that oh I didn't apologize because I'm not sorry worker you know the others who retweet I think yeah I mean he's not he's not well no no no no no no no let's not get into that it's also caliber no I think that's the wrong thing no it is from where you have come from glasses what you are you could you could say you could be a really rich dude and you could not have any classes he's deliberately putting falsehood and then there are others who are supposedly journalists who retweet that why won't they tell me one thing and understand for example journalist is supposed to say in fact one episode in that one episode foreign but", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-88", "text": "in fact one episode in that one episode foreign but no she should not go to jail and you don't have a right to cut her head and I have security I've had the Delhi police right to the police yeah no I I really I admire that's insane and it's not just one side and I watched the right Wingers respectively so not just there are many in the BJP who did not stand for and useless government with and you know I have don't know the way she said it I disagree and you could have and you're a political party spokesperson so I disagree with that now it's a legal issue I don't want to comment but as as a government whether it's testing when another country attacks your citizen look at America it stands up it is a question of them canceling the vice president's dinner but between uh it's like one and a half Millions foreign what I'm saying is if the government is not standing up for nupur tomorrow why would he stand up for me", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-89", "text": "nupur tomorrow why would he stand up for me yeah look hamari internal Joby differences but my government is Duty bound to protect me against another country Afghanistan you know at the exact point at which nupur was thrown under the truck was in the qataris threatened to cancel venka and naidu's reception so a party a dinner party for your vice president is more important than the life of an Indian citizen of your spokesperson that's a that's again not all right this is when they come in real life and they come up to you and they say that you know uh you've blocked me and I say do you know what you've blocked a lot of people I keep getting recorded yeah no but there was this one guy who comes to me and said you've blocked me and I said okay so why did I block you you were unfair to Modi so I abused you I was like um that people don't care about morality or ethics so if they're wrong they won't try to even", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-90", "text": "so if they're wrong they won't try to even correct themselves because they already have a huge fan following for example if tomorrow zubair is wrong on something why would he apologize because even while he's wrong people are praising him lost jobs for whatever reason take it in your stride do something else and in this day and age where there are so many outlets media wise YouTubers you join a PR agency content creation there are always jobs unlike 15 years ago when if you who went against the government and you didn't have a job your newspaper fired you there was nowhere might be earning more than any Indians yeah they are great so it's not like you make a lot of money okay but whatever there is an outlet you're a journalist yes doing anything else but you're comparing so obviously learning with somebody who's got a family wait one minute I'll tell you how it starts listen listen how does it start oh no don't start growing come in here if you are doing YouTube from India then", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-91", "text": "in here if you are doing YouTube from India then you don't earn money but if you're doing so that is why he's abroad but Instagram eyeballs from if you have if you're sitting in America and you get there are more hits yeah then you make more money listen wait some of these people who start trolling they troll they put something outrageous more followers this guy is like eyeballs and all that he's become the stroll in Chief then a political party hires him as spokesperson but you know these trolls I've had experiences I was doing lunch with somebody you're talking about me dropping names uh I was at lunch at the highest are there the reason I said Hyatt because this is in central Delhi a five-star hotel right so you expect so my security and this this is a diplomat her Securities outside we are talking we're having a conversation she wants to go to Punjab and you know this guy walks up to me or they say what a normally selfie or", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-92", "text": "to me or they say what a normally selfie or TK uh you know and then he said takes a congress politician woman's name and says I want to cut her head he says this publicly in front of people and the thing is it's so scary because if somebody's so lunatic to say this is so close to you so close you can speak about fork and hit you in the eye yeah I have had it in a five-star hotel again in Pune I'm surprised I'm saying this because you expect a certain filtered a measure at a secure venue this guy walks up to me says I see you on TV Etc mentions you say sorry I love your debates you then his wife takes pictures and then he says he wants to rape my wife yeah I remember oh God he said this God and and in a one second you're wondering should I hit him if I hit him is it privilege in that one second you're thinking neymara what will my wife think of me if I go", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-93", "text": "what will my wife think of me if I go and tell back and all of this in that one second this conversation and you're shaking out of fear out of anger no I get his point it's like that Will Smith moment yeah you don't know whether to react or not remember do you remember what happened to uh what's his name Vikram this guy decided to take a selfie and then he says or some [\u00a0__\u00a0] like that and ran off this thing this doxing is you have to know it's not called it's a pranking or whatever everybody has to condemn it yeah if you're taking a selfie selfie low after that you publish what you want we all should become like I don't like selfies don't take photos that's that's taking it to the others they say 2023 what do you expect anything any thoughts what do you want it to be different from 2022 I'll tell you what I want I want peace I want this this Gap that's happened we're going with 2024", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-94", "text": "this Gap that's happened we're going with 2024 important globally America UK Indian and Indonesian elections and this progress in the country that's what I want I think it's important like you said we move from Two and a Half thousand to ten twelve thousand so that progress starts so there's some joint commonality little less hate little more love I think that will be good of your teeth I hope for a lot but I expect nothing to change so I've learned not to have unrealistic expectations anything I'm unrealistic yes yes you hurt me I'm not doing lunch with you uh nothing is going to change it's just going to be more of the same uh you know um because you know unfortunately this government treats event management as policy making the Congress also thinks event management is opposition you'll probably have one more big protest that comes out because now the government is basically in centralized all protesters since the farm protest so you'll have one more big protest movement sometime in March April which", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-95", "text": "more big protest movement sometime in March April which will again paralyze Delhi for like six seven months so that will probably happen uh I don't think 2023 is a year to look forward to yeah anything worse than this is Harry and Megan which we haven't discussed you're just jealous of Megan what was that foreign [Music] because things will be largely the same because I think I've I've come you know I was at the time but India is incremental progress only you know so um that's government policy also that that is government's policy and a lot of things I I think this government is really imbibed what narasimha Rao said to not take a decision is also to take a decision so a lot of things uh you know at High Hopes always with governments to think for the people there you know condition improve and let me tell you let's be very honest five of us are sitting out here we don't need uh a great improvement in our conditions right we're living Our Lives", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-96", "text": "in our conditions right we're living Our Lives exactly yeah you've got to be privileged yeah honestly we are privileged and you know we privileged uh mostly because of our doing largely overwhelmingly you can say ah the fact is we don't need the government to work for us yeah we needed to work for our people that's right and I hope people realize this sorry gated communities I mean I'm sorry I'm talking of our privileged existence but it is a fact we don't need this government tell me one policy of this government in the last eight years that has affected me us on a very personal note uh health wealth Prosperity right yeah on uh what is my hope the same as the scene uh what do I expect the same as Abhijit because I maybe I'm just very cynical and very pessimistic yeah but I don't see um I see some very good things happening in this country but I also see some very bad things happening in this country I think the polarization is only going to increase", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-97", "text": "I think the polarization is only going to increase because everybody seems to be profiting from it without realizing that this is going to be very damaging you can have very strong political positions but to have polarization of the sorts we are moving towards and we are already into is not a very good thing um I think internationally uh there'll again be some very good things which will happen but I think there are very serious risks which we are going to be up against okay I'm not so sure whether the China front will remain silent or not I I I I fear [Applause] um okay I'm I I'm just being depressive but no no I I think what's happening in Punjab is something which is very easy you've been saying this okay sometimes it's very very scary yeah and I think the Ahmad party government is only going to make it worse yes um I don't know whether it is deliberate or it is uh you know they're just incompetent okay so people are which", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-98", "text": "know they're just incompetent okay so people are which remembers the 1980s and we have and you know we've been in Delhi in the 80s we know what it is family in Punjab so you know the last thing any of us want to do and even you know when we meet with uh Indians abroad that's the first thing they're saying is India going back to that phase of 80s with the kalistan movement Reviving none of us want that and nobody is doing anything to stop it but this is where I have again a problem with the government should come down heavily I mean I couldn't agree more with you but I don't see that happening bill was handing a victory not only that you see that I'm gonna say another image building now since the last one years it's actually more than a year since the farm bills were taken no wasn't it yeah yeah last year now you see is very carefully crafting his Association how much he loves the seeks he is called the", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-99", "text": "much he loves the seeks he is called the Sikhs the delegations there he's gone why do you need to do that I'll tell you why I'll tell you I'll tell you why do I oppose Prime Minister Modi just for the record and a complete episode if I when I visualize myself I say handling I've never prime minister handing something I would meet the delegation the influencers right you have to meet the influence yes you I agree no no one sec so I think you're mixing up issues number one uh from whatever I know I think Mr Modi and many people in the uh in the current government they um they don't see the sick religion as something separate they see as part of the largest yeah yeah okay but they do one second one second many of them do and many of them many of them it's a 300 years old many of them actually uh uh at least in the case of the Prime Minister I think it can be said that he is actually has a very", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-100", "text": "can be said that he is actually has a very strong uh I don't know what is the correct word affiliation but a very strong uh attachment you can say towards it so so part of what he does is because of that right uh unfortunately the way it's turning out it seems like he's trying to appease not that one you should not do it but so I think the disaster is you did it with the akalis you let them run right in Punjab and Destroy Punjab um and your your ministers kept quiet and never did anything they never uttered a word so they raked it in so they have been responsible as much as anybody else for what is happening in Punjab so one but I don't want to carry On and On otherwise we can do another one hour on Punjab uh so one is I I fear bad times in Punjab number two I fear bad times on the terrorist front I think that is a danger which is uh constantly lurking not just coming from not", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-101", "text": "is uh constantly lurking not just coming from not just not just coming from Pakistan but even uh you know domestic kind of terrorism which is partly going to be a result of the kind of extremism which we are seeing is not something which is you know an outlier it is something which is becoming that's why it should have been charged under Terror laws this government did nothing they cannot say I will cut somebody's head I am sorry it's a time I couldn't agree more with you so I so I fear internal security issues uh I fear external security issues uh I think on the economy will be okay I'm not so sure whether we can't lie we'll be fine but I don't think there is going to be any real major breakthrough coming because I don't see any real policy framework which leads me to believe that yes we are now getting there you know in the sense you want to create industry out here then you know you our friend Gautam and you know the the work he has done on", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-102", "text": "and you know the the work he has done on the regulatory Frameworks until and unless you and these guys have to be fair to the government they are trying to address those issues yeah but until and unless you move really fast in addressing those issues but you know how I basically you put bureaucrats in charge of addressing those yeah so I wanted to think that report in the first place and also if I can add to that you know you talk of economic front that is the most important front most important most important competition if you it's been three years okay now our trade deficit has grown to 77 billion dollars we are trading the maximum ever since records began 125 billion dollar is the trade now my any kind of overnight change it but government company report 82 percent of the trade that we do imports from China can be sourced from a third country cheaper yeah yeah no that is important not only can we Source it from a third country and they banned the app so that they didn't have to ban", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-103", "text": "the app so that they didn't have to ban the real stuff so I don't understand why now who is now I can say that okay Modi is not responsible for that day to day yeah but you talked of bureaucrats is it not the responsibility of the bureaucrats to say key we have three years I want our trade imbalance to be slashed to half I will never impose to be due to how the bureaucracy Works half the time you know you talk to the guys oh yes but what happens is for example when this Galvan thing happened the pmo for example they were kind of informal instructions they should okay you remember there were these Plastics and ships were at the port and they were damaged you know all sorts of things were happening again I don't want to name the people and the companies involved but there were companies which were trying to shift their entire manufacturing from China to India India your babus in the ministry of Commerce and some of the other Ministries", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-104", "text": "ministry of Commerce and some of the other Ministries they thought this is Imports happening from China you know what the Pakistan Army has done to Pakistan the IES has done to India I'm sorry to read this evil Jennings report uh what is the Edward Jennings thing 1952 report called uh constitutional uh something in Pakistan he says very clearly the net result of partition was not that Hindus went to India and Muslims went to Pakistan but it is that the Army went to Pakistan and the bureaucrats went to India and they will both he quote unquote they will both hang around their necks like a hanged man's noose what the isi is to Pakistan the IAS is to India very strong for example you know and there are some really bright guys who get into the is but what do you do you know you have created no specialization Ministry of Urban Development secretary no no he's supposed to be the greatest urban planner in this country is pushing files but he's supposed to be the greatest Joe animal", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-105", "text": "but he's supposed to be the greatest Joe animal husbandry or secretary agriculture he's supposed to be the greatest civilization at one point of time Delhi airport had two runways Crossing each other like this that is an accepted Runway Crossing it it's it's it there's a thing to it so that that wasn't particularly bad but what was bad was because of the Hanuman statue outside one Runway has a certain no Shiva statue Shiva statue one Runway which was planned nobody thought of orienting that particular Runway slightly differently yeah so there's a kind of a takeoff uh limitation load limitation no but then they they took the pedestal off that and they've made it well this is what I mean three years ago if I was running this as a corporation and an enemy had killed my soldiers right I would have said in three years I want our trade to be slashed to half or three forces do something I need to do that but yeah through the IIs implementing", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-106", "text": "to do that but yeah through the IIs implementing his ground level policies he has managed to win two elections resoundingly who is he going to listen to Anand ranganathan or IAS yeah welfare policies and you've done a very good job of it okay I have nothing against the social welfare programs of the government right it's the government's job to do that be sure right what I have a problem with is on the other stuff agreed right that is where they will separate them he thinks that the same person gives electricity to a village can carry on a negotiation with the Chinese one second it's an important point because the micro of trade the micro of climate the micro economics it is so complex in key education in here they're not given through life training most of them are anywhere there because even if you look at the regional socialization is where you know people and I've seen this on the Russians I've seen it in the Americans also uh if they would start their tour of Duty in Pakistan", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-107", "text": "if they would start their tour of Duty in Pakistan come to India go back to Washington come to Bangladesh or come to India go to Sri Lanka come back to India go to Pakistan and in the 30 35 years of their careers many of them would only be in this place or back and maybe one or two posting somewhere else that lack of career planning for somebody that they become an Africa Specialist or a trade policy Specialist or a disarm limit policy specialist you will also see it in the military foreign you are not allowed to become an electronic warfare Specialist or a certain kind of a specialist and things like that the career planning is all over the place across the entire government it was the permanent bureaucracy versus the lateral entry guys and they were always kept onto the side they were never they never really became part of the system really and again they were never given training in the games that the bureaucracy plays not only that see what they who can they", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-108", "text": "plays not only that see what they who can they do for example what you know you don't need to have lateral entry that you get say somebody like you make him say bring him at the Joint secretary level and then he continues and he retires he can come in for a year correct four year period and then he goes back to doing what happens for example in think tanks abroad that you get into government you serve for three years four years along with you know it's just co-terminers with a particular Administration and then you go back to your company you take a public it's called a public service sabbatical yeah okay the problem is but there is a problem even there because you know unless you are part of the echo chamber you do not get into government just okay wrap it up and let's hope that 2023 is not as dismal as we have just thought about it as good as I hope yeah my biggest fear is that the Whole Decade of the 2020s might be a disastrous", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "1f85ceb6688f-109", "text": "Decade of the 2020s might be a disastrous decade because it started with kovid 21 was back 22 is indifferent I don't know what 23 will bring yeah this is your bias thank you guys thank you so much be convene next month from now and let's see whether 2023 is we will have an assessment do you have an assessment assessment right thank you thanks a lot thank you bye thank you thank you very much for watching this episode of ani podcast with Smitha prakash I hope you like And subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this wish you a very happy new year and let's hope 2023 brings with it happiness prosperity and good health for all of us namaste thank you [Music]", "source": "uhUhRpycpSo"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-0", "text": "me and Kusha both started doing our research as well we've talked to more people from South Delhi we would go to parties and observe a little bit there is one South Delhi girl Sunita Sunita and then there is South Delhi auntie who's more like Sunita now there's a lot of similarities between Mumbai people in South Africa they're rich but they're the understated rich like we don't need to show it off we we will wear all the designer stuff like if you know if you know luxury you'll know that I'm wearing luxury my comedy actually comes a lot from my writing I'm a big introvert in real life my sense of humor is not like you know how a lot of people have such amazing sense of humor that they make you laugh every second and I love those people but I'm not that person everything is a problem you say I love myself I have self-love makeup oh God what you know stuff like that but I mean now it's funny to me", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-1", "text": "that but I mean now it's funny to me because now I don't care of course it can get you sometimes welcome to another edition of a i podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is Dolly Singh uh she's a fashion blogger she has a site called spill the Sass which is very popular among instagramers among people who watch content which is fun um she's also done a whole lot of videos on South Delhi aunties she's done one something which is very funny which is Raju Ki mummy and she's met with celebrities she's acted in films she's done a whole lot of content and she comes from a very small town and from a small town she came to Delhi from Delhi to Bombay and has a long way to go it's interesting to see how a young girl like her has achieved so much in so little a time and yet she retains that innocence and that vulnerability of small town India Dolly saying I am so happy to have you in my studio today I've", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-2", "text": "so happy to have you in my studio today I've been watching your videos for years together and secretly shall I tell you we are a bunch of friends we would send these you know yours and kushas we would send this and we'd say yeah let's guard ourselves and now I have you in the studio with me my friends are going to be so jealous oh my God thank you so much I mean that means a lot and I always like it's always so fun to see you know the variety of audience we've had of course when people come to us in their RH group it's it's fine it's like yeah we were targeting you this is our TG you know but when it's like the Elder people or like people like you or like kids I'm your almost your mom's age okay so elephant in the room but no it feels extra special to be honest because it's like okay we've broken those barriers like our our content is not just like I bought this like this particular like", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-3", "text": "just like I bought this like this particular like five year age group like this bracket it's going beyond that you know and kids are liking it and and mothers and fathers are liking it and it gives you immense like happiness because you're like oh my God like my content is reaching those people and they're actually enjoying it uh so I would take this as a compliment absolutely you know I'm going to get to your uh your entire life how you started and how you began making content and you know your education bit and you know your struggles about what to do in life I'm going to get to that bit Yeah but first I have to first and foremost I need that Sunita okay for the lack of a better one okay and she's obnoxious and then there is Saudi auntie who's more like she's calm she has a lot of peace and how she's a good money she doesn't yeah exactly so it's like so it's a lot more of like this this", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-4", "text": "like so it's a lot more of like this this depth this auntie and her daughter Shania yeah they both they both have that special relationship with Sunita where did that Sunita come to you from so actually it's very funny because I'm not from Delhi I never knew when we started doing South Delhi videos I had no idea what kind of people we are trying to play right um and I didn't know what South Delhi West Delhi not Delhi I didn't know these distinctions yeah and of course I understand Rich poor this that but like I didn't really notice these kind of things before and for the first two episodes if you see I'm not really doing much I'm playing a regular girl and by the third time I realized that wait I think I'm missing the point I think I'm not getting it right and then I was like where have I seen Rich Delhi people a lot because I don't hang out with them like I mean maybe now I do but like at that point I had no", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-5", "text": "I do but like at that point I had no connection with like the rich Delhi folks right um so I never had any kind of communication with her and I was like where have I seen them where have I met them and the one thing I the one place I could think of was embody of them all well I had only been to I think at that point maybe twice that too because of college I was a nif and I remember being very uncomfortable because I was just surrounded by by people you were not carrying a shirt exactly I was just myself feeling uncomfortable just just trying to finish my work but I could like what I noticed there was these you know classy women with their designer bags everything that is designer with their nannies and their DDS and their drivers and everybody was someone to hold their bags and then they'll go get a coffee so that kind of culture had to go back into a tap into it right and then I realized that they always have someone to take care of", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-6", "text": "realized that they always have someone to take care of them and that someone becomes such an essential part of their lives they don't know how to function without them and that's where Sunita came from like this girl and even that Auntie cannot function without Sunita they don't know where everything Sunita never comes on screen yeah I mean Sunita is is a mystery nobody knows we don't know yeah but uh strangely enough you're not judgmental about uh either Auntie or Shania no I always say that I think their aspiration who would not want to be a South Delhi girl who would not want to fly in private jets and have a Sunita all the time I mean right and all those handbags did you notice how South Delhi aunties when you enter a room first check your bag check your shoes and then decide did you notice that it's so special to South Delhi I think yeah I don't think it's there anywhere else I mean you must have noticed it because up you", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-7", "text": "I mean you must have noticed it because up you know you were in fashion institute technology so these are things which are noticed immediately you know in Delhi yeah yeah it's a very Delhi thing because I feel like Delhi the way the people work here is like if you got it you flaunt it so they like to flaunt it they like to show it off and then they see whether other people are showing it off or not right or are they showing off real things or fake things so they are very yeah so they they their eye is very like sharp in those terms and I I'll give it to them they own it and I feel like that also see you have to realize that it comes from from years of research okay you have to understand the product really well for you to understand whether it's fake or real and I'll give it to them like if they've spent so much time working on that and research again don't you come on into it of course you can't acquire that snobbery", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-8", "text": "it of course you can't acquire that snobbery Essie uh I'm trying okay you're trying hard okay now let me before I this is my favorite topic so then I've said we'll talk about that and then we'll talk about how you got to that point right yeah okay so tell me your journey how did you start and where did you uh decide that okay this is what I wanted to do content making yeah I think content making was definitely uh you know how Bob Ross says a happy accident um I never thought of really making content as such uh I think for the longest time when I was growing up I always had this um cream and aspiration to do some sort of acting or some performance I I always knew that I belonged on this now you sound like I know but I never said it because I was also a very insecure child so I think I always kind of hit it inside of me I don't think I even said it to myself I have a diary where I've actually written", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-9", "text": "myself I have a diary where I've actually written down that I want to be famous but I don't think I can act so I think I'll sing it's a very bad thing okay so to tell your mom no never in fact my fam I'm it's such a weird um you know at home it's such a weird environment for me and my brother it's unconventional I would say that me and my brother both are very shy at home and we are very outgoing outside like in front of strangers because I feel like there's no inhibition because these strangers don't know you at school like these kids are going to know you just for those few hours and then you're gonna go back home at home though your mom is going to judge you and then she might say things which you might not have homework yeah exactly so that was always the typical of middle class families ever dare say that you want to go and join us and even if you try to perform okay so yeah so I", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-10", "text": "if you try to perform okay so yeah so I never said it out loud I think it was very internal for me then when I was in college I started a Blog which was a fashion I was always very college student passion college is really you wanted to get out of yeah for sure I think all small town people will relate at least at that point I really wanted to get out of that town and you know you feel like that I know but when you live in those places I think you don't realize how pretty it is I've only kind of started to Value it now when I have left you know when I now visit I'm like oh my God I grew up in this place like can you believe that sometimes I have to pinch myself okay but when you when I was growing up there for the longest also my family didn't travel much so honestly for the longest time I didn't know that I lived in a very Scenic Place I thought every place looked like that now I think", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-11", "text": "I thought every place looked like that now I think long ago if I'm not mistaken it was Preeti Zinta you know she's also from Simla from yeah she is yeah yeah it was the same thing that you you take the hills for granted because they're around you and in the movies also you see all everything Scenic so you're like yeah the world must be Scenic and so I came to Delhi I definitely wanted to get out because opportunities were here in the big cities and I came to kiranimal college I did my political science honors why Paul science like um I always was interested history I mean that's what I told my parents I want to do epsc you know in quotes because I had to get out of the house I had to project something this is what my dream is and I'm gonna break it and make it and I'm gonna come in this red Lal batti Wala Gadi one day and you know like collected yeah exactly I have to pitch some dream to them so", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-12", "text": "exactly I have to pitch some dream to them so that they'll let me get out of that place right because my father was like if you're gonna do a simple ba might as well do it from you and he was very disappointed that I didn't take science okay he was very disappointed that I didn't even take Commerce for that matter so Arts he was like yeah he was like honestly I really could not care less and I know I I got that a lot when I mean I'm from a family of doctors and all that so I was like a child said ticket 21 22. you get a lot of that yeah oh God okay yeah anyway similar situation so I had to kind of get out of that and I decided to do honors in political science which was a great subject I always liked it but I always also knew that I'm not going to take it Forward because my heart lies somewhere else although I didn't know where exactly it lies and what am I going to do about it yeah", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-13", "text": "and what am I going to do about it yeah I was in kirorial college I didn't even join the theater group there which is so famous players right where people like Amitabh Bachchan yeah yeah everybody has come out of that so on a part of me regrets that but I'm okay like I've grown up okay and I've evolved from that time I have more confident now um then I took a gap year tried to do cat you know how everybody was trying for of course yeah I joined the same queue and I was standing there for your crying my eyes out then my parents themselves were like you know we don't think you're happy we can see that you're a little depressed why don't you do something that you like okay um and I found this course in nift which was Masters and management and I thought this would be a good mix of MBA and fashion and something that comes together beautifully although when I did join and I I was good at it but I when I did", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-14", "text": "I was good at it but I when I did join I realized ah I don't know I don't want to do this anymore I I don't know much about fashion but I think you're always well dressed and you're always fashion points are always on the market right but but yeah I'm not the management yeah because I think it was not creative enough for me uh okay A lot of it was management was you know making sheets and numbers yeah a lot of number game and I'm not very good at that I don't enjoy that a lot so I realized that because this is not it yeah and then I try to get into styling that's when I joined idea so when I was in nift it was my last semester and we as a student you have to do a project outside right and I joined ID was an intern as a styling intern they made me write also so I became a writer slash styling intern um and they liked me a lot I liked them a lot so they offered me", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-15", "text": "lot I liked them a lot so they offered me a job uh which wasn't that great as an offer because I'd done my masters um so I did sit for places not great money tons of money yeah place was amazing I mean I made so many friends I was enjoying my time but you had to sustain yourself right my parents are obviously from uh you know we come from humble beginnings and I had a loan on my head education loan and I had rent to pay here everything so obviously you know you have to consider these things you always take PG I was staying in a flat yeah in Gotham nugget and uh like a tiny but let me tell you this you're staying in Gautam nagar which is where Shahrukh Khan lived you studied in kirodimal which is where Amitabh Bachchan boss you are going to become the next big thing can you believe that I've only just found out that Shahrukh lived in the same yeah yeah same Gully yeah literally", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-16", "text": "in the same yeah yeah same Gully yeah literally the same Lane I had never I had no idea okay uh but I mean I I feel like God is saying something to me yeah I think that as a sign okay uh but yeah then I I did get a job from my college placements that they offered me better money and better position but you know your heart really like it was just like um I was very torn between the two options that I had one was ideaver lesser money but my heart lies there then the you know the rational choice that you would make is better money and better job but something about idea was just calling me and I went there and I decided to be like you know what I I obviously requested them to increase a little more just just just you know touch this level and I'll come and we did that and I joined them right away um and it was so funny that within I think the first week or 10 days of me joining there as a styling um you know now", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-17", "text": "me joining there as a styling um you know now and obviously a junior stylist and a writer um we started making videos and we got into a contract as a platform with Facebook um and we had to do about 80 minutes of video content every week and we consider this we have no no Talent no no actors no producer no director uh we have a small Studio on the Terrace that's it and all these platforms ideaba men's XP India times all of them together have to make a lot of video content so what do we do we pull everyone in we throw them in front of the camera and we just try to make random videos literally that's how it started so it was all improv it was all improv it was not a part of our job it was not even a part of our Kiara in the beginning we are still finishing our job like I'm still doing my articles all of us Kusha everyone still writing our articles doing the timelines all of that then running to the studio getting our", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-18", "text": "all of that then running to the studio getting our makeup done jumping in front of the camera doing whatever you can do in that moment but that whole group which you know putting together the content very bindass and very yeah I mean so many girls you know and we always fun groups it was a very fun group we always hopefully uplifted each other it was such a nice place to be in because everybody was together and we would think of ideas and improv most of it was improv then I would I slowly turned into a producer so I would sit on the edits and you know obviously bring them to a crisper version of the video because there was so much of footage because we were just like there was no script right we would just keep saying things and whatever was funny about keep and that's how South Delhi started because we were literally trying out different ideas everything how many of you were from South Delhi living in South Delhi at that stage none of us none of you none of us", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-19", "text": "stage none of us none of you none of us okay Kusha and I did so Daddy we were the two South Delhi girls and I was I was I'm not even from Delhi kosha was she has lived all her life in pitampura and she was and that at that point you guys did that no she did both um and Shivani did West Delhi she was not from Westerly also so basically none of us belong to the places we were trying to and it was just observation observation yeah and I think after a point me and Kusha both started doing our research as well we've talked to more people from South Delhi we would go to parties and observe a little bit later on the way she would do that that I got this PRP done yeah and you know and you're that uh shivoham yeah exactly I've seen it so much right and obviously in the best terms people really you know they have so much faith and everything and I could see that a lot of southerly", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-20", "text": "and I could see that a lot of southerly people have you know have chosen their guiding lights in life and they follow someone um so we did a take on that and Shiva Shivam also came through like that I think Kusha I think had met someone who had a party who did that you know and so that she picked that up yeah and I think she met that person years back like sometimes when she was in college so a lot of it obviously came from memory new observations mix of everything there was Santa who was a creative director who obviously was the reigning um you know but it's not easy you know Dolly you you got the pronunciation of all those fashion names perfectly oh we would always research okay we would always like even if like either someone would correct me or we'd Google what the correct pronunciation is or how the soundary folks are pronouncing it so we did after the point because it did become a big property for us uh we started putting a lot more work into it", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-21", "text": "uh we started putting a lot more work into it we started writing our scripts soon it became a more official thing um I turned into a full-time producer I was directing videos as well so it was a lot of fun and I think that's where my whole love of this you know journey of content creation started and I could see myself enjoying that a lot more than I was enjoying the writing or The Styling bit so where did this Raju Ki mummy come from oh God she's like how can you do South Delhi and then wow of a character I'm trying to put on rajaki mummy I think comes from within no that's it for sure trust me because it is absolutely 98 based on my mother no okay yes she denied it for the longest time now she owns it because it's a loved character in the beginning she was like I don't sound like that I've never done that but we did a random video which was you know a a collection of how mothers react when guests", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-22", "text": "a a collection of how mothers react when guests come over it was an idea I pitched because I could I have I'd seen my mother be such a double-faced person like you know in front of us she'd be like I'll whack you and this and that and in front of a guest who's like are they my kids and me we are such a loving family and you are welcome why don't you have more tea you know like you suddenly become the sausage suddenly the eyes will say something else you know because I have seen in my life my mother was never called by her name she was always by her friends by the neighbors called as Dolly Ki mummy or anmol Ki mummy is my brother so I could see that women in this class in middle class in general a lot of times they don't have their own identities either they are someone's wife or someone's mother um and I know it's funny but it it's also real emotional a lot of things which you did were funny but", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-23", "text": "a lot of things which you did were funny but funny at the upper level exactly and when you think about it so much meaning to what you were doing so that you know that I I there was one thing that I remember you you know this Chapel at Raju it was and then somebody uh who is it I think um there was an actor who said that white Apple exactly I was like you know my um you understand where that comes from because you understand The Angst you understand a middle class mother trying to juggle so many things yeah bringing up kids and disciplining the kid Raju is of course running all over the place not doing his thing clearly right and the mother doing it but I I saw where you were coming from I saw that that there's no I think there's a lot of realizations that has happened even as an adult to me where I realized where my mother was coming from a lot of times we have such strained relationships with our mother growing up especially women uh", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-24", "text": "strained relationships with our mother growing up especially women uh at one point all daughters and mothers have a very toxic relationship and I had that for a few years with my mom um before I moved to Delhi and I think after that things became clear because I think there's a lot of forgiveness that comes in you grow you become wiser and you understand they're bringing their conditioning and where they were coming from I mean my mother was 16 17 when she had me what can I expect she was a child when she was Raising me um so I think yeah a lot of whatever was you know I was doing even though there was a whole thing of it being funny and comedic at the end of it there was a lot of also I wanted to talk about a lot of things that women go through um I mean I've done characters like guddi Bhabhi and zenath also later on which um of course on the face of it are funny and you know they make you laugh but if you really", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-25", "text": "you know they make you laugh but if you really think about their life stories you realize they're not like they're not the best they're not having the best time yeah that's true in many ways I think like for example what you're talking about your mother being 16 17 she there was nobody to guide right so how to be a mom how to be a wife is something that she picked up from her mom yeah and subsequently you know that and other people other people exactly you do this so many times of course there was no Google yeah like today's parents yeah exactly now the YouTube videos will explain everything to you why is the child burping why is it not burping everything is there right yeah but not your mom and not me probably where you know yeah all those things it's hard in fact um you know like uh when we're talking small town I had uh here this person called MBA chaiwala he's he's I know you know him right yes so he's also from a small town and he was", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-26", "text": "so he's also from a small town and he was mentioning how um he went for English speaking classes right and TK English you're learning how English is spoken because you know you want to do your MBA you want to get to that that strata of society and unless you learn utna betna speaking in a particular way you're not going to get accepted and getting accepted is important very important so he said I would spend extra time to understand how to do that you know like how to order tea coffee in a restaurant it is such a big deal is I mean I have personally also sat with my dictionary all the time just learning new words as a kid I was also very enamored um as a kid I was also very ashamed of where I came from so there was this constant thing in my head that I have to get out of this I have to One Day become rich One Day become this like English-speaking woman who's independent which I am right now and I'm very happy about that but", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-27", "text": "am right now and I'm very happy about that but I also realized I was coming from a bad place now of course I'm so much more um you know grateful for for where I come from and I know my roots and I and I appreciate that I I don't want to run away from it I want to accept it and take it with me and move on from that but a lot of my English communication skills because a lot of times young girls and people from small town message me about this how is English so good you know and now that it's great but I can understand that because the schools and colleges that are not perfect they're not at the level that Delhi schools would be so I did study in an English medium which I'm very grateful for my parents because I was the first girl to study in an English medium School in my family um but I had to make that extra effort as well to kind of to you know watch English movies or shows and really get the hang of it", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-28", "text": "movies or shows and really get the hang of it because somewhere my aspiration was to be this person to be able to speak in English all the time you know now of course I value Hindi more somehow because I guess English in my is our second language we have to stop making it such a big deal even right now I'm speaking in English but I've realized that there's no point judging each other you know how we used to judge each other like English accent uh Dolly like you know when I got into uh doing voicing and news and all we had to be trained to speak in a particular manner I can totally imagine I think totally we couldn't talk English just normally like suppose suppose I was to uh you know just say let me pull out something okay um you have to talk like this okay me uh just so that I can mimic it to you it's so funny because my English teacher used to say this if you don't have an accent what's the point so you", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-29", "text": "don't have an accent what's the point so you could see the school of thought this is the English accent exactly why would it come okay also Hindi huh because Hindi is not my first language okay but I would also speak Hindi just say you say you know one of your characters that's fine because it's not your first language so I'll give it to you it's it's funny when people when people whose first language it is talk like that like they don't know or they don't want to know is a retired army General who served as the 27 chief of Army staff as well as temporary chairman of the chief of staff of committee from 15th this is how I would read normally yeah right so how have we trained it was General Manoj mukundarvani born 22nd April 1960 is a retired army General who served as the 20. and speak in that accent you know it's yeah oh my God I am imagining all this so as a kid my father always I'm talking about 80s", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-30", "text": "a kid my father always I'm talking about 80s late 80s early 1990s yeah because I remember my father used to tell me watch English news watch English news and sometimes and then I would I would switch on the TV and sometimes just watch that news and I would not understand a single word because of this accent I would just understand how beautiful it sounded though I have to give it to that because they were so poised and nice and calm exactly and I would just nod my head yeah one day one day I will get it even the ads I did advertising uh I studied voiceover right and I used to I used to argue with the professor like who's why do you need that oceans of Lada to caress no complexion Lux Supreme this is so funny come by locks why not Lux you know yeah that changed slowly it was washing powder nirma yeah and then surfali Auntie came yeah and that surf Valley Auntie was popular why I think it was after the liberalization and", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-31", "text": "why I think it was after the liberalization and all of that happened in the 90s now it became Thora I think the Indian tadaka came back huh you know make it like more Indian bring it back aunties your mom my mom exactly who will say she's not washing clothes yeah her hands are not soft no they're not just manicured hands yeah she sits on the floor and beats the out of the screen she's asking us why yeah hola moms did that right yeah like so I'm sure you related to relate to all this exactly like I would relate that cause yeah these things were aspirational as you said South Delhi aunties are an aspirational thing now that you've reached that South Delhi Auntie stage where you are are professional you know what I mean to say is yeah you're economically independent you've bought a house for your parents which is a big deal before you've become 30 you've reached a knocking word you've you've become you know you", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-32", "text": "knocking word you've you've become you know you become independent in many ways which is such a huge thing for a girl in our uh you know in our country yeah so you've come to that stage how do you guard that you shouldn't become a South Delhi Auntie no because like I said I think as I'm growing up there's a lot of you know things I realize literally almost every day you know I question myself I question a lot of my past Behavior where I was coming from what kind of thought process did I have and I think a lot of my realization has to do with you know where I come from and what kind of values I hold and how much I want to safeguard those at this level because I know that you know like you said when you become independent it's very also easy to lose yourself in that process and and just keep going with the flow and make that money and become that person sin who you see every day like in my profession I see very", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-33", "text": "see every day like in my profession I see very a variety of people and uh and I sometimes feel like maybe I will become you know I find myself becoming like them and then I'll have to hold myself back oh no no no no uh you are a different person this is not you this is not what you'd ask for this is not what you'd say in this situation so um it's constant reminders to my own self uh but I think there has been a lot of just um I I just like where I come from I think I'm just more confident in life I'm much more grateful to my parents I know I can totally imagine what their struggles would have been um and I'm very happy I think a lot of it has to be given to that I'm very content with what I'm doing and uh and I feel like I want to take everybody along with me rather than jump around and become this unapproachable person um uh yeah so I think it's just constant telling yourself", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-34", "text": "yeah so I think it's just constant telling yourself this is who you are you're writing your own lines yeah you're enacting it too so you know um you take on many roles yeah at times it must be hard to say okay so what am I I'm doing this I'm doing this I'm doing this I'm jumping from One content to the next content and then and then also the reactions I'm sure there must be good ones and I mean like I'm a fan girl I love what you do but there must be people who must be saying nasty things too so of course yeah how does that how do you take both um I think it's um it's not easy at least in the beginning when the trolls started happening or in kind of hate comments um it did get to me I mean it still does but not as often thankfully um and I would I'm very competitive in life like extremely competitive sometimes like I've had therapy about that like I don't want to be this competitive I want to", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-35", "text": "I don't want to be this competitive I want to be a little more chill in life but it doesn't come naturally to me I'm trying to work for that and uh because of that fact when you get a hate comment or something like that it used to irk me a little more you know like why am I not able to please this person why is this person not happy with it so used to see the comment section of course yeah and I feel like a lot of content because you know when you're a celebrity when you're an actor you can detach from this whole social media thing you can post and leave and you don't have to engage but as a content creator as an influencer you have to engage because that's what your whole livelihood depends on okay right you have to engage with these people you have to you know take their feedback work on it all of these things because if you don't have that following how will you make that money yeah so it's a give and take and I appreciate", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-36", "text": "so it's a give and take and I appreciate there's so many people who've been following me for yours so I really really appreciate them but there will obviously be trolls like you said and it does get to you um and like you said you know I do so many characters but I you how do you maintain who you are um coping mechanism it's very difficult because uh you know during the pandemic before the pandemic there was a time where I was meeting a lot of people this was the time when we were you know our popular uh popularity was increasing and I would you know randomly bump into a lot of people or meet some people at parties and um I could see a sense of disappointment even whether in their eyes or sometimes they would say things like are you upset are you okay um and it was all coming I'm not saying that I don't blame them but it was coming from a place that you know they see me doing so much comedy on screen that", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-37", "text": "they see me doing so much comedy on screen that they were expecting the same off of me in real life and I'm not that person I'm a big introvert in real life I'm also very um like my sense of humor is not like you know how a lot of people have such amazing sense of humor that make you laugh every second and I love those people but I'm not that person my comedy actually comes a lot from my writing a lot from my observation a lot of when I'm in front of the camera camera but when I'm out of the camera when I'm away from it I am not that person exactly I will be funny here and there but I'm I'm I can't make you laugh every second it's just not me it's a character I'm playing um so a lot of times people forget that and they expect you to be this you know over the top character all the time when you're not they are like oh my God like is she okay uh not realizing that maybe this", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-38", "text": "like is she okay uh not realizing that maybe this is who I am so so that expectation yeah I did get to me I actually came to a point where I didn't want to meet anyone I was quite depressed I I think I started getting anxious about meeting people because I was like I don't want to disappoint anyone anymore and I don't want to see that look in their eyes when they meet me and they're like okay you know this is it um so I I did start therapy because of that essentially and um you know kind of talked about that at length with my therapist and now I think I'm in a better place um I've also now obviously tried to tell my audience as well that this I try to share a lot more about my personal life as in like this is who I am in reality my characters is not it so I do try to make it a little more clearer this time but I'm definitely at a place where I don't get I don't freak", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-39", "text": "a place where I don't get I don't freak out if someone gets disappointed meeting me because I'm like yeah this is who I am take it or leave it actors don't have to put so much of themselves out there exactly which is also why people can uh you know separate them that this is yeah who this is the character they acted like but this is him in real life right but with influencers or content creators the lines are very blurry and I won't blame the audience also thinking that way because you do portray so many characters and especially if you're doing comedy you do come across as a very funny person and if you're not that in real life I probably even I might think like that what were the other girls with you did they also feel that same kind of uh um disconnect at times I won't say so I so Kusha and I have had like a long journey of you know done we've done so many things together I've traveled together yeah we've traveled", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-40", "text": "together I've traveled together yeah we've traveled together because southerly girls became such a hit so we have done a lot of things together um and I think um so Kusha has a very nice extroverted personality she is actually the way she's on screen is how she's how she is okay so I think a lot of times people's confusion also came from that yeah you know so they wouldn't get they would get confused um but yeah I don't think I don't think Kusha has had that problem thankfully I wouldn't want her to um but yeah I personally face problem yeah exactly I think with komal people have had that um you know a bunch of times that uh oh she's like this in person she's a little reserved and you know this and that but our personalities are like that but it's also hard right every time you step out you expect it to look a particular Manner and yeah but those who what will you look like will you look like rajuki mummy will", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-41", "text": "look like will you look like rajuki mummy will you look like yeah thankfully I can deal with anything yeah and you've done so many like a joke about it yeah yeah I've had I've met people in pajamas buying groceries and whatnot and then it becomes like a joke it's fine yeah I got a place to meet at no how did just do that again I just love that who says that totally I don't know but I I've heard people okay I've heard people you know initially I used to find sometimes what we used to do you know uh like question Santa would give feedback like see this or say that and let's add this and add that to the video I would think like oh my God this is a little too much I don't think anybody says that but then I would suddenly meet someone who says exactly that and then I was oh my God maybe it's not as exaggerated as I thought it would be I don't know maybe they do I maybe not as not as", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-42", "text": "know maybe they do I maybe not as not as annoyingly huh also because it's the way they actually speak so it doesn't come out as annoying you you go to Bombay so often yeah but if I'm sure you also say bhaiya out there and they look at you because nobody says but you're there yeah I've started saying Dada now how do you switch you go to Bombay so often you were telling me once a week or twice a week yeah more than that sometimes because a lot of our shoots happen there most of the big shoots happen there so except for whatever I'm shooting at home uh most shoots happen in Bombay so I have to keep going to Bombay and learn the ways of Bombay because it's so different from Delhi so yeah the dada and all of that I think when you call them bhaiya they might get offended yeah so yeah you have to you have to remember everything you know I mean even Bhai sub is not there yeah it's not even", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-43", "text": "Bhai sub is not there yeah it's not even yeah and it sounds a little rude for delhiites were used to a different style of Hindi it sounds a little uh it too uh I won't say crude but it's a different way of uh speaking Yeah but there is that snobbery in Bombay too the South South Bombay South Bombay Sobo which is what is the difference between the snobbery of South Bombay and South Delhi I think it's pretty much the same except for the Bombay folks I think they they are proud of the fact that they they're not such big show-offs so for them if you were I live in and then you go and meet a South Bombay girl you think she will she she will but I'm saying that they're not as loud when it comes to their dress personalities right they are more and they're they're rich but they're the understated rich like we don't need to show it off we we will wear all the designer stuff but it won't be very loud", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-44", "text": "the designer stuff but it won't be very loud in terms of you know the logos and The Branding and all of that you will see it like if you know if you know luxury you'll know that I'm wearing luxury right um and they're a little more chill I see I feel because Bombay in itself like Mumbai people in itself they're just chill in life uh so that but yeah I mean a lot there's a lot of similarities between Sobo and South Africa village the the snobbery in the airport I won't know because I am always so covered in like blankets because I feel so cold in the AC that I'm originally tall girl where do you feel cold yeah you just asked me before I came in but yeah I've always had a very sad relationship with gold in life so I do not enjoy it in fact when I say people I tell people that I like Summers they're like they literally want to slap me because summers in Delhi are a nightmare so I'm", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-45", "text": "summers in Delhi are a nightmare so I'm going to send a camera team just to see what you wear when you go to the airport and I have this neck pillow which which also has a hoodie like a bear neck pillow now see okay we've done Shahrukh Khan we've done Amitabh Bachchan now you're in Amir Khan who takes uh who takes a pillow to the airport I am comfort for me is the most is the biggest priority so yeah so uh you are comfortable in Bombay and you're comfortable in Delhi yes but you live in gurgaon gurgaon so please tell me about the the snobbery of good guy because I'm not trying to look down upon any place yeah but every city has has that thing yeah you know which is like you go to shadi's and all that and when they say and then you turn around and like every place you know like you go to Bombay it's like we were talking about that if you were to say that I live in", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-46", "text": "that if you were to say that I live in you know clean they're not going to pay attention if you say if you're in Delhi and you say pitampura they're not paying attention you uh in uh you go to um Chennai you have to be dressed in that proper manner when you go for weddings and you have to wear the sarees you have to have a nose pin six diamonds seven dimensions I remember how these aunties would say where in Calcutta you know like it's that eyebrow where to live even in uh luck now even of course every every city has I mean when we did Saudi Ariels we used to get so many comments from Pakistan as well that you know even in Lahore and Karachi we have similar crowds here and similar South South I think the southern regions in every city or every place where yeah all over the globe are the rich right they reside there their behavior patterns are the same the snobbishness of Lahore aunties is at a different level", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-47", "text": "of Lahore aunties is at a different level only like and Karachi is a little bit like Bombay yeah you know yeah the Delhi Bombay of Pakistan yeah so Lahore is like yeah you have to have you know your bharize outfits and Lawn kidney you know and then it's like Seasons you know so the Islamabad and the Lahore aunties will judge you or whether you're wearing last season's uh Lawn Lawn is their cotton it's that very it's your Good Earth you know then yeah Good Earth and a raw mango softly energy you know when you get yeah where is your sari from how would you reply Dolly raw mag if it was Fab India how would you reply any conversation with anyone from those places because even in gurgaon I'm living in the most um what do you say the middle class regions I'm not living in an apartment so you have no Livery debater coming with the train not at all not at all not at all okay but now that's your aspiration", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-48", "text": "not at all okay but now that's your aspiration yeah but gurgaon uh snobbery as you call it is also is the same people who were in Delhi they have either their young children have moved after you know getting married or something have bought the new flats and apartments in the Magnolias and the what was the other ones yeah exactly so all these Rich Deli families Heritage yes exactly exactly so the security at these apartments that gated community I think you have to tell them five times Who You Are yeah you know even that like in many of these places uh it's there in white tiger also when you hear yeah it's you know this they think that people like your drivers and the maids and the guards and all they don't understand you you're seeing now this even Noida keju you know the the fights which are happening with the guards where some of these owners think that they are some kind of a low life they don't they don't understand you they don't they're not", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-49", "text": "they don't understand you they don't they're not worthy of a of respect as another human yeah it's it's that level of but I think I I feel like of course there's a lot of rich people who do that because somewhere I feel like money hinders their view but uh I have to say that in our country it doesn't always depend on how rich or poor you are it's there's so many divides so um you know when it comes to looking at another person as if there are some roaches uh or just not um a full person right you don't give them the respect that happens with I think everyone um and um I feel like at some level you also have to unlearn a lot of things like I I come from family where you know our uh you know the class divide or the class divide is so um you know we come from up so it's very out there it's very like this person belongs to this cast or which cast do you belong to and this and that or which class", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-50", "text": "you belong to and this and that or which class and all of these things so you're always me so aware of these things that you're growing up growing up that now you have to unlearn these things that you know you're you're you're you can't stereotype people like that or you can't judge people like that or do you find yourself you know like correcting yourself when you can because a lot of times I've collect anyone is I think while growing up also I used to have fights with my mother all the time and I I mean now I can see where she was coming from she also has to unlearn all these things now we are doing that together um but yeah a lot of times you know suddenly I'll be like okay why did I say that why did I say it like that hmm you know um I can be nicer than that uh it's my internal you know it's an internalized thing that you feel like oh you're at this level and this person is at that level so", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-51", "text": "this level and this person is at that level so you can be like this to them not saying that I've been like but that's what you have to do right you have to unlearn you have to correct yourself each time you do something like that uh of course the people that we're talking about do not realize any of this yeah uh they keep going on they don't care uh but I think uh because it's such a you grow as a human you grow as a human and I think that it's I mean I've seen a lot of rich people who are also extremely nice extremely sweet they understand their privilege um they probably are also trying to help out so it's not like it's a big stereotype that all the rich are like this but yeah of course stereotypes also exist for a reason right um so it is a pattern for sure but I think all of us collectively whether you come from money or not we all have our judgments we all have our you know boxes that we put people in", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-52", "text": "have our you know boxes that we put people in like we are talking about rich people and we think like there are a certain way but not always so when you put it across in a comedic manner yeah it makes many people rethink yeah of course that's what I'm saying stereotypes come from somewhere so if you're telling me they're just laughing at them it's making us rethink yes oh my God am I like this too yes and when you re if you're a sensitive person you'll realize oh my God I make this mistake too yeah and and then you know what happens uh dollies many times that you people rise from that level of not being able to say pizza properly yeah and then you come to the level of pizza you're able to say pizza you're able to say hors d'oeuvres yeah you're able to say noodles instead of noodle and after that you come to that level and then you start looking down on people exactly yeah that's what I'm saying yeah", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-53", "text": "people exactly yeah that's what I'm saying yeah you know exactly so uh to guard yourself that you shouldn't become that snob that you used to look at yeah that you used to hate yeah yeah that that comes with a lot of learning and being sensitive for sure you have to be very self-aware otherwise you will like I said Lose Yourself you will become that person you always dislike yeah you know who look down at you and now you're doing the same thing to another person right from small town to Delhi to Bombay and now you're in gurgaon and you're like hopping cities making content yeah how do you remain sensitive to these things I mean at the end of it I feel like it's just about trying to be a good person and that's Universal so whether you are in Mumbai or Delhi or gurgaon or America or wherever you are I think at the end of the bottom line is are you a good person are you treating people with kindness and are you being nice to", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-54", "text": "people with kindness and are you being nice to them I think it all comes down to that and if you are whether language is a barrier or something I think your emotions whose language uh not always I don't think so I mean I do feel like my English is not that great still I feel like uh my vocabulary is really small but um like I said like I don't hold myself back or I don't let that thing about me hold me back in any way um and I'm trying to obviously learn in the process but yeah I I don't think it was at any point a barrier big enough that could like stop me you know you're brave enough to say that uh the toxic comments um hurt you and you search therapy you know I've had several people coming on this podcast who very successful people in their own respective field and I asked them the same question that you know the toxicity many of us are told that be strong right ignore ignore why do you look at the comments", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-55", "text": "right ignore ignore why do you look at the comments why do you bother just do your work you are giving them attention you're giving them attention ignore but it's not possible right it's not easy I mean I try to I of course I try to ignore of course I try to drive out my attention to all the love that I'm getting which is amazing uh but you know human being it will get to you you have a you know tiny heart and a brain that functions in a way and you have those nerves and anxiety and all of that so it can happen it's bound to happen so there's I mean it's very easy to say that just ignore I just let it be let it go it's fine you have how you have bigger things plus I have bigger things of course I'm enjoying the love that I'm getting but that doesn't mean that this little comment can't hurt me or I have a shield across me right now some can sometimes it can but of course I've been working on", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-56", "text": "sometimes it can but of course I've been working on it nicely and I think I'm at that place right now especially that I could not care less of all the trolls because I think thanks to therapy thanks to obviously talking so many of my friends are in content creation so we have a very closed group of just you know support group you can say where we talk about things it's very important to have that in any profession that you're in I think it's very important to have friends from that profession so you understand each other's pain points necessarily women women you can have men women anybody yes and I I my partner is from a different background altogether right so he also brings in that perspective of what it is like to not be in this position right sometimes I would be so worried about something like oh my God this comment came or this feedback came and I'm so worried about it didn't work and suddenly he'll see some think so rational how does it matter your last video worked this much like", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-57", "text": "does it matter your last video worked this much like something so simple he'll say and then you'll be like oh yeah I didn't I didn't think about this he's not scared I know I mean I may mimic him in private it's only a person does he think that you're going to make him one of your characters but a lot of times I mean we've talked about this a lot of times you know my comedy uh because my comedy it's very observational it's very like it comes from your life right correct so anytime we're having some fight or like there's something new that has happened in our life a version of that will show up in my one of my videos because because our content ideas come from like our life family so any conversation you've had with a person you've observed someone or anything that you have suffered or been through then you'll be like oh wait this is a good part good topic for Content everybody goes through this why don't I make some content because it's so", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-58", "text": "why don't I make some content because it's so relatable mom has come uh and your partner is their dad brother of course I I make so many skits where I have like I play my brother also and my father also and all of them from your yes yes I have no other point of reference okay a lot of it I like honestly it's so it's so funny that we talk about it as a family how uncanny sometimes it is we'll get you literally you're speaking like the father you're speaking like the brother this literally the nuances because I've observed them all my life right so it it comes naturally even when I'm trying not to be like them I am like them so you didn't get a lot of these chachis and aunties in your family coming in with what I'm doing and there's been a distance but I personally have not engaged with them um I've only engaged with the people who are enjoying my work um you know my relatives who have nice things", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-59", "text": "work um you know my relatives who have nice things to say and actually do watch my videos so they are sweet they are fun to talk to and then we talk about you know what's happening and what's not but people who are you know either bad-mouthing me or not interested or jealous in any way I really don't care yeah I have always been that person I'm very like especially in terms of relatives and family I've always safeguarded myself and I don't have useless conversations with people I think that I was that person always growing up like I told I would tell my mother that I don't want to talk to this relative out of just like just because they're my relative I have to talk to them no but it comes for a lot of women uh who are yeah I mean and a lot of family setups are like that where you have to please them where you have to talk to them where you know maybe you are you are close to them and they will say certain things my", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-60", "text": "close to them and they will say certain things my opinionated women are always that they always consists education has happened you get that I mean yeah not in a relationship when I was single and I was looking for love I would be like yeah because feminism you weren't going on dates yeah I was but I would get disappointed meeting the men and I would be like are my standards too high so how do you meet your partner but that's never a problem please don't tell me in South Delhi no no I met him on a dating app on a dating app okay how modern is that exactly yeah and have you I didn't have to sacrifice yeah I mean I did but he thankfully he did not know of me okay he came from another world altogether and that was a great thing because anybody who knew of me I would not date them so because like I said right they have this nobody knows that is so different from who I am and I would get these you know messages like if", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-61", "text": "and I would get these you know messages like if I would match with someone and they'd be like oh a big rajaki mummy fan and suddenly I'd be like oh God that's what I did right now no but like no but I'm not dating you right I'm I'm planning on dating this person and I get it they love logical way that's great but they will come with the perspective that I will be someone like Raju but you will keep making or you'll keep making them laugh like this I have to say you tell that to your boyfriend exactly right yeah role playing like you know of course that's not going to happen so I have to be a little like I wanted a fresh start like I wanted to start with someone who really gets to know me for me first and then gets to be introduced to this whole side of me right okay so when Manu also my partner did find out that you know I make videos and I do this comedy and all of that his friends told him and", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-62", "text": "and all of that his friends told him and I rationed him I I was like you know I I I'm allowing you one video a day you can't overdo this because you have to keep my personality intact in your eyes like you you have to remember this is why he must have thought are you gonna judge me like you judge all these ladies and you judge all these guys I have to get to this point that you meet so many celebrities yeah how do they react to you like do they they appreciate you in your various avatars or do they want you to do things like you know act out in a particular manner how do they react to you uh I mean I have to say they're all extremely sweet about it and um thankfully most times they know what's coming because either they have seen the videos or they have been prepped that you know this person is coming and they're going to do some kind of this video and you have to be prepared for that they've read the script", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-63", "text": "have to be prepared for that they've read the script and all of that has happened so a lot of friends it's easier it's like a soft launch but sometimes uh when either they are not on social media or they've not seen them they don't know and then suddenly you know especially when I become a rajkum yeah because when I'm explaining to them I'm talking to them I talk like this here this is the script this is what we're gonna do I'll be a little exaggerated over the top but like be okay and like don't worry and everything is a part because you're a director also attack yeah I mean yeah and I'm doing right now especially I'm doing my whole thing by myself right so I'm the one who's briefing them giving them the direction explaining what the concept is and then suddenly when the Pala goes over my head and I do the Hello friends chai pillow and suddenly they'll be like I've did a video with Ranbir Kapoor and he was so", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-64", "text": "video with Ranbir Kapoor and he was so taken aback and I'm screaming because as rajuki mummy it's part of the character that you scream and shout and and be honestly obnoxious about it and he literally really was trying to get away from me because it got that loud even if you might not have grown up with these characters but somewhere you've met them you've come across a person like that even even someone is she's so out there she's so different and she's so like she loves herself unabashedly and she's always joking about her divorce and her husband and her husbands were sick to me you know so um it's all there yeah it's so out there but I've still received so many messages saying I have this Barbie in B Block who's exactly like this I have this neighbor who's exactly like this so you know you like it though and you get that of course I love it I love it um so I think there'll be people who tell you you", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-65", "text": "so I think there'll be people who tell you you exaggerate a lot of people I think a lot of people who are like that kind of pendant get offended I know you know have you seen ayush Radha yes I love her right so she does that South Indian thing so well yeah she's like every want that I know of yeah she's exactly like that now we've all gone through that right our mom's telling us yeah one day here one day there yeah right and she always says so she tells you that you know oh Amazon right you know and and then we don't know the word for that the Oakley everybody has you know sometimes there are things in your kitchen which you don't know the name but you just know why do you know Oakley because you've learned oh say Oakley yeah right actually remember what it is Oakley but I would have learned that but I don't know the kannada word for it so she also what is that well she makes it so realistic she's so good", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-66", "text": "well she makes it so realistic she's so good but then some of my Arts don't like it she exaggerates she doesn't talk like we don't talk like that suppose because you're not observing you talk like that I talk like that even we all do that yeah it's she's got a Danish say it is another one yeah it was so good with accents and he's another person who when I tell my uncles uh this is how you talk this is exactly how this is so funny because you know I mean as friends also when you enact each other like reacting you you become a little like defensive a lot of friends of my friends would enact me and they'd make this like really nasal voice okay and I know I'm very aware that I have a nasal but then suddenly I'll be like I don't have a voice like that what do you mean you know suddenly my voice will go deeper and I'll be like you know you become a little bit don't we all do that", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-67", "text": "become a little bit don't we all do that when we're sitting with friends and suddenly somebody will turn around I know you know when we were in college and there was one friend of us who was who was living who lived in Karol bagh yeah so we used to always say yeah you know because it was but she won't know what she won't know and she used to get really mad at us exactly you know okay what the hell do you mean yeah and we were like you know sorry we didn't realize yeah and they know of course there was no you know there was no sensitive you can't call anybody's accent out because you even have noticed which is a nice thing is that when you see TV channels and you look at news people speak in their own voice yeah it doesn't matter English that is Indian yeah that you are speaking and that's how you I don't only know this English I totally know yeah and people are okay with it and I didn't you that is so difficult", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-68", "text": "it and I didn't you that is so difficult though no I don't really know yeah she will give it to you English English I said now tell me your thing where is your life leading you now you keep innovating which I love thank you so now what are you uh going on I think content for sure is uh obviously going to happen in Instagram YouTube videos all of that is going to keep happening I'm just I'm just trying my level best to obviously bring the level up uh make better content content that I'm more proud of I love writing I've realized that I've I enjoy writing a lot whether it is a small script um Hindi I think mostly I think it's in English because we talk in English yeah I think a lot of times growing up because I was so obsessed with English I used to think like oh I think in English how teachers ask you what are you thinking huh what's your what's the language that you're thinking I used to think that I think in English but", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-69", "text": "I used to think that I think in English but I've realized that Hindi is where my comfort lies okay so um and I think English mostly I write in English because that's what we talk in and we you know so you're writing so a lot I'm trying to yeah um this is your blog and your uh yeah so for my yeah for my Instagram YouTube and maybe for some bigger projects if I want to do like a longer script maybe like a short film or something some planning I'm trying to kind of get into endorsements that's not coming here well who knows who knows exactly I mean I never thought I'd do Colgate I mean given the kind of teeth I have okay but it happened so you know never say no never scenario so you you think big products will come your way because you know these big guys realize that you can't you can't possibly sell everything with Sachin Tendulkar or with uh you know of course yeah I think influences as a as an industry um", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-70", "text": "I think influences as a as an industry um we've grown so much in the past two years everybody has realized importance we we are having events which are only influenced for influencers so you can imagine the number like I was literally noticing the other day that I've been to at least two to three Creator events this year which is only full of creators there's no other guests so only young creators old creators just creators and these are like places full of people so imagine the number of creators we have right now that's the speed that this industry is growing at and I think everybody whether it is brands or people in the Bollywood industry everybody realizes the importance and the value that influences hold right now and it's totally um it's not organized like the Bombay film industry it's not like Noida I mean news channels here yeah we did have the ASCII guidelines in the middle we have those to follow so these guidelines are about how how um how transparent you have to", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-71", "text": "are about how how um how transparent you have to be when you do any kind of paid promotion whether you're misleading people or not what kind of procedures you might have to follow you know how you see those paid partnership tags or hashtag ad or basically to make it very clear to your audience that this is a paid promotion and you're getting money to see this so that they don't take it 100 like to the they don't believe you 100 and they know there's a certain level of advertising you know right um so all of that so definitely I feel like the industry uh is being acknowledged a lot more and we are being taken more seriously which is which feels great okay uh but obviously it's still very unorganized and we work at home you know so what are the products that you would say is I don't I don't want you to take names obviously because they were sick but just say uh I would like hesitate to uh have on my show for example somebody who's doing", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-72", "text": "have on my show for example somebody who's doing quackery like you know I would say quackery but that yeah exactly anything that I'm not um either not going to ever use or just don't know the science behind it any kind of when it comes to products or if it's about like a lot of times I don't do you know those rummy and all kind of things the games the poker games and those uh apps um again whitening fairness um anything related to that mental health if you're selling um you know um even women's day in fact I remember last year on women's day I didn't do a single campaign because I really want to see the brand do better it should not be like the women's day again we have woken up let's do something for women please make video let us pay you and then bye bye we don't care about women anymore right so um I realized you know whatever campaigns were coming for women's day were all brands who had not personally seen them do anything for", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-73", "text": "brands who had not personally seen them do anything for women exactly and then they would pitch it as also CSR activity it's a CSR activity so uh please do it for free hi hi or please do it for less money it comes to you now a lot keep free content especially when it's CSR building but you are you are a multi-million dollar company yeah so if you are doing this good work why should I not get the money I am still poor so give me you know that's what I'm saying so if it was an actual NGO trying to reach out and trying to get help that's a different thing but if you're a company who's a global company making millions of dollars every year every month why shouldn't you pay yeah so that that's where I call them out then I don't do such things I'm like your CSR activities to you do it good for you looks good on your profile not for me because I know you have money to pay me but you're not gonna because you're going you're", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-74", "text": "but you're not gonna because you're going you're using my platform you're using my followers but we are not getting anything out of this which actor would you really want to act with a woman man anybody do you really have to take one name yeah I would love to work with that at a party recently and she knew of me and I was so like yeah I mean there's so many more names I can take but if I really have to choose one and just choose from my heart I think and who are the people who you've worked with in the Bombay film industry who you were really surprised that you know you didn't think of them to be something but they turned out to be something else completely oh I mean I've done videos with a lot of them and I think what happens is on I've done videos with them and they're doing promotions which are already so hectic uh but I've seen some of the actors do so much hard work to promote their films and it really shows how much", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-75", "text": "to promote their films and it really shows how much they care uh one of them has to be Wiki kaushal he's so driven and he's so he's really into his craft like I remember doing a rajuki mummy video with him which was a one take Wonder uh our chemistry was on fire and it was literally I think three four five seven minutes of just one video going on and on and our banter and we were very happy with it like our team was very happy with it we were very happy with it and that's how much how much he wanted it to be better and how much he wanted himself to be better and that I think shows a lot uh similarly I think uh you know meeting nawazuddin sir or pankaj to party sir was amazing they are also such great actors yeah um you know even Karthik Aryan is so driven Priyanka Chopra she has this personality energy that is a global icon let's be honest right so when she does she comes into a room", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-76", "text": "right so when she does she comes into a room she owns it there is nobody else in the room okay right it's just her everybody's looking at her everybody's just in awe of her whether you love her do not like her whatever you just cannot ignore her right it's that thing so I think I'm a Delhi person yeah so when I would go to Bombay to interview some people um like you know you grow up thinking ah this actor you know you have a crush on that person you're growing up and then when you actually meet them sit down to work with them whatever I mean mine would be interview I'd be so disappointing and I would say yeah I should never meet your crush in real life what they are on screen and what in real life are different Jesse camera the magic comes on that person transforms yeah and then you realize why they are the way they are exactly exactly but for me it's it's actually I've seen that a lot uh you know where they're professional they have", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-77", "text": "a lot uh you know where they're professional they have their boundaries they're not like extremely friendly or anything and initially I think probably I would have thought that oh my God that other actor was so friendly and nice why is she not friendly and nice or why is he not friendly but then as you grow and because I'm just as much a part of the industry now I'm trying to enter that industry I'm also I also have a little Fame of my own which is different right uh it's Fame and like I said right I used to think that people are disappointed yeah you know meeting me so I realized that it was also my own hypocrisy of thinking that that other actor was so nice and sweet it's probably her firewalls exactly they are trying to safeguard themselves they don't have to be best friends with me yeah it's not their job yeah they're here to act they're here to do their job which they are doing perfectly fine um so if they have a wall around them if they're trying", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-78", "text": "if they have a wall around them if they're trying to safeguard their interests that's completely okay yeah so I think I've I thank you have not met a person who's mean or anything especially not to me because they have to work with me I think it's a lot of I've also like talents Talent versus Talent right yeah of course they can I don't know if they're mean to other subordinates out there of their own but at least with me none of them have been anything of you know rude or anything but yes the difference of maybe their outgoing and more friendly or maybe they are just a little guarded that's it this thing about nepotism you are also somebody from small town India came to Delhi bigger city and then going to a bigger city getting into films and this whole question of nepotism which has been doing the round so you don't have a sugar daddy you don't have a you don't have a Godfather you don't have anybody in Bombay but you want to", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-79", "text": "don't have anybody in Bombay but you want to make it in there right you're ambitious yeah that's the big bad World scare you at times yes it really does uh I'm also someone who does not know anything about networking and I've realized how badly you need to network because initially I used to come from this perspective that you know my work is going to speak for itself I don't have to go around talking about it and I just can't but it's been a slow realization that you know after a point you kind of have to um and it's not good or bad it's not like unless you um you know talk to them or please them they won't give you work it's not like that I think it's a lot about just putting your face to it just meeting them so that they remember you so that they know oh you know this other girl is also interested in acting why don't we try her out so I think it's just about that um which for me is a little hard", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-80", "text": "about that um which for me is a little hard because I'm it doesn't come naturally to me so when I do step into a party I have to just like prep myself for like two hours of networking and talking to people and then we'll be fine so then do you bring outfit myself just a little more like my extroverted version a chatty a chatty version who's not like as awkward in real life but uh but yeah so that is happening for sure it does scare me a little bit because opportunities do not come as easily or or as naturally to you as they would to some someone who's already from the industry or from a family that belongs to the industry at the same time there is a different sort of you know advantage that influencers have of course because we have a following so a bunch of times you know we will get auditions who uh for characters because they think that not only will this person be able to do it because it's comedy it's similar Typecast", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-81", "text": "do it because it's comedy it's similar Typecast right yeah and and we would also get their following when the film releases or the show releases right we would we would tap into their following because they will be promoting the same thing so that also happens and it's both good and bad because you do get an advantage you do get your first chance to enter the industry at the same time you will be typecasted they might not give you a chance to do something different from what you already do because they don't really take but you seriously as an actor doll leasing would be fine no you don't want to get Typecast as sister role but that's what it is system cast as best friend and sister role who's a who's funny funny huh right so basically being typecasted as the funny girl which is fine of course like I said it's opportunities so I am not going to sit here and not realize my privilege I do uh if I'm getting these opportunities I know a", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-82", "text": "uh if I'm getting these opportunities I know a lot of actors are trying and not getting even these right so of course I understand that and I'm very grateful but at the same time now it's like I've done so many like me and Kusha we call each other like jaggered best friends you know we always play best friends best friends so at this point it's a little bit of like craving to do a lot more to do something different to do something that maybe does not require you to have comedic timing okay so one more question it just struck me is that you know you in the middle of the podcast people are talking about toxicity of relationships and yeah and I have to ask you you know that that influencers get a lot of hate uh toxic comments coming now there's this person called urfi you know who wears very bizarre clothes her fashion sense is is very shocking yeah and the idea is to shock yeah right yeah but she doesn't get the comment so much about", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-83", "text": "yeah but she doesn't get the comment so much about her outfits as that she's a Muslim who's wearing this yeah you know so she gets a lot of hate from Hindus and Muslims from traditionalists and modernists yeah and she's quite daring in that case another level yeah I love her I think um I think an independent woman really scares the society hmm anytime you see a woman being free scares you even woman it scares me a little bit oh my God like is she gonna be okay yeah is she fine like why is she doing the why should why is she trying to take so much attention why can't she just like be under the radar you know you you get you as a woman you have a fear as anxiety you become like why is she like this why is she wearing things like this oh my God she's bad she's a bad influence you know so I I think personally I mean so many men have done this for years you know getting attention or doing", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-84", "text": "done this for years you know getting attention or doing whatever they want to do it's only when a woman does something she wants to do it becomes a problem um so for sure I feel like anyone who's calling her out I mean if you don't if you really do not like it don't look at it yeah don't give it the tension the problem is you are giving it the attention and what she is doing is she's taking it that's what she loves and she's killing it right that's what she came for yeah so here you're the one losing she's winning so if you really have a problem move on move on to other things there were these films which were made about uh Bombay and how people go to uh funerals and jotha do you remember and you did a Content thing is they have a full closet you know just for this full of whites and Good Earth it has to be dressed right for them of course of course I feel like I mean I remember when I went to meet", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-85", "text": "like I mean I remember when I went to meet a friend whose grandmother had recently passed and it was my first time meeting someone you know as an adult like you feel like oh God someone has died and I have to go meet their family and all of them all your parents are doing all of this right but this was the first time I went and I wore red my friend later like it's fine and then when he was dropping me back to my cab he's like uh you know foreign but people like these are very very particular about what they want to wear the sunglasses also have to be on point you know which Prada which Burberry classes do they want to wear and then their all their whites have to be nice even in the whites it's like which designer do I want to wear today who deserves what to tell these people who sit there with their hate comments I did a podcast on Mental Health yeah the first comment uh dolly was like yes and then there'll be some people", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-86", "text": "was like yes and then there'll be some people who'll say you are encouraging women to do this mental issues I mean everything is a problem you say I love myself I have self-love makeup okay all right people who are like you know how big girls are doing like you know body positivity you know promote career fat um she's just saying that she likes her body she's happy in her body of course she'll work to uh be fit whenever she wants to and if she feels like if your body requires it but is obesity like you know people have a comments you are you are manifesting a voice to that aren't you yeah and I'm giving it a creepy uh stupid voice because that's exactly what they would sound like I imagine when they when they say to you also yeah foreign they will have all the reasons in the world I feel like no matter what you say especially right now on the internet because I feel like the the as you know how internet is both of being in a", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-87", "text": "you know how internet is both of being in a boon and all of that so pros and cons are always there so while it is you know connecting all of us and we have social media has brought us so much good but it's also bringing the bad out of people the the fact that they can anonymously say things to each other and not get anything out of it right like you I can't really find this person and do something to them all I can do to keep my own sanities to ignore them yeah um and that's honestly a little sad yeah right uh but that's what I'm saying that because of this whole thing there's been such a increase um of these kind of comments not just to me but like everybody around that I see whether it is celebrities or influencers or even random people on the internet who don't even have these professions not even calling for this attention are getting that attention we get these unsolidated unsolicited picks from men demands random creepy messages stalking you know um", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-88", "text": "men demands random creepy messages stalking you know um it's just a sad State of Affairs it does sometimes you know I I've had instances where I'm traveling and someone would take a sneaky video and post it or message it to me that I saw you I mean just say hi just come and say hi to my face don't be a little creep don't take these stockish you know these videos of me where I'm not aware that I'm being recorded yeah um yeah but internet has made that happen young girls getting into the profession would you tell them to become content creators to do videos to get into the film industry or you just say be very very strong and if you're not it's going to get tough no I'm not gonna say that I think it's very important um both the fields are amazing um and if you if you are someone who's interested in it definitely go for it there is I think there is no better time right now is a great time because we are having these", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-89", "text": "now is a great time because we are having these debates we're talking about nepotism we are challenging all of these things that have already existed for years and years and centuries right so this is actually the greatest time to be a content creator or to uh try acting or all of these things and I feel like all the girls who um have these aspirations I would definitely push them to come forward and try their hand at it uh of course uh what I would suggest is just to try to safeguard their own interest have a close group of friends or family someone you can confide in don't let social media um be the only place that you go and come back from have a life like even right now even I'm trying to have that like I realized in the last year that I was doing nothing else but social media and I was doing nothing else but make videos um there was no life I was not learning anything new I was not traveling much I didn't have much going on in my", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-90", "text": "much I didn't have much going on in my life except for this so I it also becomes and that honestly is true for every profession that sometimes treat your work is work and not let it be your whole life which is very important so what I would suggest to young girls would be just to safeguard their own interest a little bit be aware be aware of their rights be aware of what they can do what they can't do what people can do to them and can't do all of these things is very important and um yeah in the end just feel free chase your dreams don't hold yourself back no matter where you come from what kind of money you come from it's a great time even if you have a small phone and internet on it it's fine that's all you need so where does Dolly Singh want to go say two years from now five years from now uh I definitely want to act more I have a film that will hopefully release next year okay that's nice yeah yeah so um that is", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-91", "text": "year okay that's nice yeah yeah so um that is happening I'm auditioning a lot more another thing that is happening with me is I've just launched a mini collection of candles that I've made from scratch and not made myself there's a brand involved but on kivo collection you know conceptualize Kia and I did this one very weird video about like have you seen candle names these days old books you know Cafe Cappuccino so I realized that candle names these days are very funny you know they write whatever so I was like okay whatever let's let's make it fun and I did that video where I was like you know it should it should be like Wiki kosher's armpits I'd like to smell that or like golgappa you know uh or like PESA okay imagine if I have a candle I'm doing a party Dolly and I've got I've bought your candle and it's called so everybody will be craving that and not what are the other names so so now", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-92", "text": "and not what are the other names so so now I mean those are the names that I put in the video and then uh the brand reached out to me and we did a collection together which was very nice uh so now we have names like um that sounds really pathetic I know but sometimes you need that energy in your life ah yes can I buy a dozen of those please and I I also have a candle called nuzzle blocker okay because I've realized you know I I always used to be like now I am like this oh God everybody becomes like that because I feel like also after a point when you have something to lose you become more like another Yogi yeah yeah so we've kept those names and obviously the candles are great so Dolly what do you feel coming on a podcast with Smitha prakash and I want you to say that foreign um it's my Chanel shoes that I got last time from Paris and Sunita married I don't shop for myself anymore I just approve", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "16ce0cf68a8b-93", "text": "don't shop for myself anymore I just approve oh my God you're so good you're so fabulous thank you so fabulous thank you so much Let's do let's do that how do you do that how do you do that you really sound like somebody who's saying but you do one thing I used to always find funny that you know I'm playing these southerly characters and my teeth are still like like any South Delhi person who has money will fix this first thank you thank you so much for speaking with me all the best to you and I hope you get great success thank you so much I'm so I'm so happy to be finally here and doing this with you it was such a beautiful conversation thank you thank you for watching or listening to this podcast where I spoke with Dolly Singh I hope you like And subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste thank you [Music]", "source": "X4kQjQXsEnw"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-0", "text": "what your history teacher has probably told you in school they were just teaching what was there in the syllabus but to know that a lot of that is concocted uh you know history in the 7th Century he along with several others during his time ensured that the Arabs beyond that narrow portion of Sindh never managed to get to the mainland of India the herd's wives is taken away as I mean Mohammed bin qasim forcibly marries her the other one commits uh johar when Mahmoud of ghazni comes to somnath Temple and he is quite shocked to see 50 000 common Hindus all armed in some you know manner defending their Temple 400 500 of the family who were hanged from trees on deepavali and to this day the Monday they don't celebrate that's also a living history and despite that we do perverse things like tipu jayanti and all of that every year is like one generation lost and most children then don't read history Beyond say class 10 or 12.", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-1", "text": "don't read history Beyond say class 10 or 12. a i podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is Vikram sampath noted author and historian whose new book bravehearts of Bharat has created a few ripples Vikram seven earlier books include two volumes of Veer savarkar which also generated a lot of interest Vikram has a doctorate in history and music Dr sampa thank you for coming to our Studios most honored that you're coming here to discuss your book and much more thank you smitaji it's always a pleasure to talk to you I'll be calling you smithaji if you insist on calling me Dr sampath I think Vikram works well enough okay so during the course of this podcast it's going to be Vikram which it is offline so um so you know um in your book you say in your new book which is a bravehearts of Bharat in this you say that India doesn't tell its story and as Sanjeev sannyal said and I'm quoting from that", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-2", "text": "sannyal said and I'm quoting from that the manner in which Indian history is depicted as is a it's a long Litany of failure videos every battle we are taught about is one in which India or Indians have only lost we're made to appear as a nation of losers nation of losers before I get to your book I'm going to get to your tweets oh God yes I know see this is how I trick my guess because your your Tweet on savarkar you've written on wheat sarkar two volumes eminently readable though very voluminous I must say it took me a lot of time people you know doing the lockdown as dumbbells also for a lot so it's it's only if you have misconceptions or if you have if you're a serious reader of history that you know two volumes get consumed get absorbed quickly but anyway so your Tweet on uh on Rahul Gandhi you called him an imbecile so that made a lot of news why were you so angered I was", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-3", "text": "lot of news why were you so angered I was not anger at Smitha it was just that you know I've been telling the same thing from the last three years that's why I put out another tweet you know giving links to all the interviews all the videos uh you know talks lectures interviews with almost all the channels of all ideological tilts left right and Center where we've been talking about this uh he wrote Mercy petitions he was complicit in Gandhi's assassination he was in islamophobe he was the reason for the two Nation Theory all this has been done to death and it's just that suddenly someone just comes up with the same dead horse to flog and then you know how the media Works immediately there are Panic calls from all the guest relations saying tonight eight o'clock there's one show nine o'clock there's one show and I'm really tired saying the same thing in autopilot mode it's like a broken gramophone record that I go on so uh yeah I was more", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-4", "text": "that I go on so uh yeah I was more exasperated and I think intellectually and mentally fatigued to take on this and I think uh he was just doing it for the sake of publicity who in his life is a very revered figure and he has an ally there for whom savarkar is a very revered figure they've been asking they've distanced themselves from that comment yes I mean there was a time when balasubthakre had said that manishankaraya will never be allowed to enter Maharashtra for the comments he made on uh the ships has been one party which has been consistently asking for the Bharat ratna for him much before the BJP also entered The Fray so I'm sure his advisors know the Dynamics and the poor Mr thakre is already you know surrounded with so much problems he's hemmed in from all sides his party has split why would anyone in their right mind uh embarrass your ally at such a going to their state when they've already had", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-5", "text": "such a going to their state when they've already had a split and cause this so and his son went and joined that Bharat jodo yatra and this was just after that so I really don't know uh who the advisors particularly on historical matters are because these are such juvenile comments that was I mean uh someone signing off as your most obedient servant uh we had Mahatma Gandhi signing off like that Subhash Bose that was the that was the template of the time the colonial Masters you were always addressing and I think everybody should have gone through the rigors of cbsc education system done this Ren and Martin and you know learned English the way we all learned it and it was that it's part of your thing you know that you write yours obediently or yours respectfully or yours yeah I may not have any regard for you but I have to sign off like that yeah and this is common sense and to make that a national issue just looking for publicity so I", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-6", "text": "that a national issue just looking for publicity so I think the best thing is to ignore uh stupidity can't be fixed so there's no point so that was one reason I said I'm just done to death with this but I do again no but that again was oh he's running away from the Battleground I mean excuse me I don't want to fight this battle with such people I choose you've had Twitter spats with historians too right well historians not just Twitter's Pat Smitha even courts bats so there's been much more than that but I've always liked to engage with a wide variety of people uh in the long list of video links that I put uh you know on one more media Outlet we had a big face off with Professor Aditya Mukherjee a former jnu Professor with Shashi tharur Dr Shashi tharur in one of the conclaves so you know a lot of historians don't engage in debates and discussions particularly those belonging to the leftist uh you know School of historiography", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-7", "text": "to the leftist uh you know School of historiography it's my way or the highway there's no it's never a dialogue with another person correct it's always a monologue but I've always had uh you know open conversation with people who have differing viewpoints but then they need to be some standards of discussion and debate if you actually bring the level of the debate to the lowest common denominator and then expect someone to rebut all this uh with people who have not read most of it and you come from a place of prejudice who come from a place of rhetoric I think it's a waste of time three years four years ago maybe I would have said yeah let's do it but now I'm bored of that okay so your book uh Vikram it's immensely readable thank you it's uh it's a lighter read from the savarkar volumes uh outdone myself in terms of the size uh one would think that maybe it's easier to write but I doubt it because uh you know to", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-8", "text": "but I doubt it because uh you know to get all this uh research material on the 15 people that you code uh it must have been hard because it there wasn't enough research or it wasn't easily accessible right right I mean I think I was corned by my publishers they said after those huge volumes let's do a what my editor premanka goswami called it a quickie uh you know it'll be a quick read so just do this and 15 people the I thought the difficult part was only choosing who the 15 would be uh because you don't know it's more about whom you have to leave rather than whom you're going to select but I realized it was 15 times more difficult than the savarkar volume because as you said there's so little documented history particularly in English or whatever you have to rely on a lot of regional uh you know language literature oral narratives folklores uh all of that but it gave me a great I mean I traveled across most of the", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-9", "text": "great I mean I traveled across most of the places that mentioned in India and met so many people and accessed a wide range of sources which was deeply Illuminating a lot of them I myself didn't know uh particularly like places like the Northeast which is a black hole I think when it comes to Indian historiography who even knows much about the home homes I was now coming uh all over Delhi there are Holdings now of lakshit we're having his 400th birth anniversary being celebrated in the coming week on I think on 24th of November is now thanks to the you know government of Assam and government of India we are at least commemorating that now yeah uh of course there was a medal in his name in the Army and so on but other than that the larger Indian uh you know mainstream history uh the homes who ruled for 600 years if you ask a little child can you name two a home rajas or one home Raja I'm sure nobody would even know uh so just", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-10", "text": "I'm sure nobody would even know uh so just imagine the plight of someone coming from the Northeast to say a Delhi or a Bangalore or you know to study and in their textbooks their part of the country is not even represented and you're reading that as the history of India so do they not even matter in the larger Narrative of India and uh what sort of uh you know um Unity are you then creating among people and communities which is the sad manner in which history has been written true Northeast has been uh you know completely uh ignored uh I'm going to get to the Northeast part but before that I want to just know first like how did you select these 15 people before I go to the regional you know I want to go from Kashmir right up till uh you know Karnataka so and from uh from the east from Assam I will come to church yeah so I want I will we will Traverse the course but first how the 15 it must have been hard right yes as", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-11", "text": "the 15 it must have been hard right yes as I said I think it was more about whom to leave because my criteria were one was of course these are Tales of resistance Tales of Bravery where as you rightly mentioned you know I mean it's not as if we always you know covered in front of invasions we also won Wars so what were these wars who were the protagonists of this these wars making that sort of a list and also I wanted a large the time span so it starts from the 7th century and ends in 1857 with the uprising and then whatever happens after that is the Freedom Movement so I thought that was a good stop and geographical spread so traditionally those areas of India which have been ignored in mainstream Indian historiography the south of India both of us come from the south our stories also don't get featured we are still better off than the Northeast but you know we don't get that coverage yeah only vijayanagar that's it but I'm going to come to", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-12", "text": "that's it but I'm going to come to the cholas yeah yeah a little bit hardly yeah hardly but yeah go ahead yeah so that was the uh criteria the geographical spread and I think another important point for me was the gender balance again history has always been his story where her story never gets uh the due that it deserves yeah and so uh out of the 15 I've selected seven women and eight men so tried to balance balance that also so geography time span gender and the criteria was you know stories of Courage some are not I mean two of them are were not traditional Warriors they didn't wear an armor and burst into the battlefield uh ahilia by holkar and rajashree bhagya Chandra Singh of Manipur who I don't know even I didn't know this man existed before uh but both of these were civilizational warriors they uh we'll talk more about them later but then they United the con they're part of the country and ahilia by the whole country through culture through through spirituality at a", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-13", "text": "the whole country through culture through through spirituality at a time when the country was going through a decadent phase and uh you know invasions and all of that so I thought these two were important not just in terms of military courage but also I think civilizationally what were their contribution to this nation actually uh you know when you mentioned earlier by I'm going to come to Alia Bhai but Alia Bhai is thought would be the person I will read first that because it doesn't go chronologically in the book I thought I'll pick up Alia by because you know um curiosity but let's start with Kashmir now it was it was the most revealing thing about it you know when I read we tend to think of Kashmir as one part none of us think that it went right down till the planes so you explained to me or give me a teaser or to our viewers re-read uh listeners a teaser about this yeah tell me about it because I was I was like fascinated I said", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-14", "text": "because I was I was like fascinated I said I'm telling you this because I'm sure there'll be some comments saying how ignorant she is but sorry yeah most of us Dynasty how many people know how many yeah yeah I mean very few would know at least we didn't have him in our growing up years in textbooks and this man was called the second samudra Gupta of India and kalhana of course in his Raja tarangini paints a very you know fantastic and exaggerated picture of his digvijaya campaign that he made across the entire subcontinent according to him was under kashmir's Supremacy which is a little exaggerated he says he almost crossed Karnataka defeated the rashtrakutas then went to the Tamil land defeated them then crossed the ocean and even conquered Lanka so which is a little uh you know there are no documents to support nothing nothing to you know triangulate that bit but then he had at least still what is today's madhya Pradesh Bengal", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-15", "text": "least still what is today's madhya Pradesh Bengal odisha um yeah to to some extent parts of you know Assam Gujarat all of that and on the western side Afghanistan uh Tibet so all this entire span was the Kashmir empire under Lalita in the 7th century and we uh never heard of him and his biggest contribution in was the fact that he along with several others during his time ensured that the Arabs beyond that narrow portion of Sindh which they conquered after a lot of effort and dahar's family uh rajada there and his predecessor Chacha who was the founder of that dynasty ensured that the Arabs never you know had a free run he took them 60 70 years to capture after Muhammad bin qasim came and Beyond those little ports in Sindh and so on the Arabs never managed to get to the mainland of India why have we not told this story this is such a fantastic tale who held them back all of these people yeah there", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-16", "text": "who held them back all of these people yeah there was yes then there was a Confederacy created of so many people bappa raval Naga bhatta pulocation vikramaditya dhanti Durga do even does it strike a bell in anybody's mind these were the people who ensured the Arabs but all of us would know who Muhammad bin qasim is yes and when they the invasion of Sindh happened that is by wrote Every child would know it would be a one mark question in some history paper but who are the people who ensured that they didn't go beyond that narrow part of sin no we don't we wouldn't talk about that so I rest my case that way that you know this is the history that's been handed down to us what's uh what was given to us I think by our Colonial Masters was further perfected by the ideologically oriented you know post-independent historians who uh made this their project as to how the history of India needs to be written so tell me a little", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-17", "text": "India needs to be written so tell me a little bit about the fall of Sindh yeah and qasim yeah that's a fantastic tale and it's I I wanted to actually do a separate chapter only on Dar yeah because I think right from uh you know 636 CE they've been the Arabs kept trying to invade sin but it was only by 7 10 when that they finally conquered Sindh and that too Muhammad you know there's there was this uh incident of a of a a ship that was going from Lanka all the way to the caliph and that got stopped by Pirates at the devel port and the her did not stop it and so the caliph was enraged and he sent Muhammad bin qasim to invade Sindh and he comes with this huge Army and it takes him a lot of time to actually invade sin but the her is very overconfident and complacent because the in the past almost 60 70 years they've not been able to make inroads I think that was his falling and", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-18", "text": "make inroads I think that was his falling and he comes in the open battle to fight Mohammed bin qasim and he's killed there and that what follows is a total plunder and for the first time I think the kind of Loot and rape of women a demolition of places of worship uh Buddhist and Hindustan lines is so widespread which probably synth faced one of the first times the kind of Rampage is there and one one of the her's wives is taken away as I mean Mohammed bin qasim forcibly marries her the other one commits uh johar and this is probably the first documented episode in Indian history much before padmavati and others where all the Royal ladies committed johar to escape the clutches of the Invader and the two daughters that's that was again a very fascinating story uh parimal Devi and Surya Devi who are packed off as gifts to the caliph and once they go there they hatch a plot and tell the caliph that you", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-19", "text": "hatch a plot and tell the caliph that you know we've already been used by Mohammed bin qasim and so we are not pure enough for you and the caliph is so enraged he doesn't even think and Mohammed bin qasim who's having a Victorious lap in India he's he's summoned back to be brought back sewn in a leather bag and so on the way he actually dies of Suffocation and once the news of his death reaches the two princesses they then tell the caliph that they lied to him only to take revenge for their father's murder and then the caliph is obviously enraged and the girls are also put to death but they managed to avenge the two girls despite being in the Harem and the Captivity of the caliph they actually took uh you know revenge for their father's Killers now uh you know you talk about Sati and johar I know uh I'm going to come back to uh I mean I'm going to keep coming to hell yeah", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-20", "text": "I mean I'm going to keep coming to hell yeah you know like when you talked about the first known johar which has happened in Sindh with ahilia by her daughter commits yeah I mean she didn't but her daughter did what was that like yeah you know my that was that was again a very sad story that story it just it shook me I'm not a mother of a daughter but I'm a daughter I can well understand what it must have been or must have felt or the mother for the mother and she I mean despite all her Petty and her devotion I think her personal life was such a disaster yeah poor lady and the husband was a debauched man this khanderao who had several wives and but what is interesting is the father-in-law and daughter-in-law equation two equation who finds this little girl somewhere and he's so impressed by her erudition that he proposes to get her married to his son and then he takes complete charge of her education her upbringing all", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-21", "text": "he takes complete charge of her education her upbringing all of that which is so rare I mean in 18th century India the father-in-law actually trusting the daughter-in-law more than his own son and after he dies in Battlefield when all the other eight or nine wives commit Sati he insists that he should not commit because you are the strength and you are the one who's trained in administration and all the politics of the time he's sharing those letters with her these are all documented and kept in the maheshwar archives uh and uh later on her son also dies and he's you know mentally imbalanced so there's no air and then she takes on the throne uh as the queen of indoor much to the uh you know displeasure of the peshwa's uncle raghoba who tries to use up the kingdom but she gives it back to him in style but I think the biggest uh problem for her comes when her only source of Sucker her daughter loses her husband and she decides to commit Sati", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-22", "text": "loses her husband and she decides to commit Sati and she pleads with her and there's a first person account of how she goes there and literally Falls at her feet and cries saying you're and the daughter says you are going to die in a few years and after that I will be left to deal with a life without a husband so I can't uh this is the right moment for me to take this Noble uh course of you know self-immolation and she goes away and this lady is supposed to cried openly someone who's never given to showing emotions in public actually breaks down and the first person account of a British chronicler who writes that and she locks herself up in the room for several months she stops eating she's yeah I mean she completely gets into a you know sannyas mode after that so very sad tale for somebody who is otherwise given to so much of uh you know charity Petty renovation of so many temples yeah sad personally you can't you", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-23", "text": "so many temples yeah sad personally you can't you can't go to Kashi you can't go any of these places okay let's talk about somnath yeah talk about the somnath idol let's talk about somnath and what happened there yeah that's again such a fascinating talesmith so when Muhammad of ghazni gets to uh Gujarat uh the chalukya ruler bhim Deva he's you know run away fled and so Mahmoud has a easy run through pattern goes to somnath and he's come specifically to destroy the idol and that's where again the subterfuge that you know modern leftist historians do I don't want to name anybody but then everybody knows who it is uh who keep telling us that this was not for religious considerations it was economic considerations that there was so much wealth in the somnath mandir and of course the the evil Brahmin who is uh you know hoarding all the wealth and all of that there may be some element of truth about the wealth in", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-24", "text": "may be some element of truth about the wealth in the in the temple but the fact that there was no religious consideration for it is bangkam because this is narrated by all of them right in their Chronicles contemporary and even later they narrate this whole thing that after passing through patan he comes to somnath Temple and he is quite shocked to see 50 000 common Hindus not soldiers of the chalukyan army but common Hindus all armed in some you know manner defending their Temple and their jyotirlinga and this takes him one week to kill all of them and then enter the Garba graha and all the pujaris come running to him and say you are a Lutera you want uh money so whatever money is there in the temple we will offer it to you just take it and leave and this guy laughs and says if I do that I will be famous as a Trader of Idols which I don't want my legacy to be called so I'd rather be called a", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-25", "text": "legacy to be called so I'd rather be called a breaker of Idols or but chicken and so he refuses the money demolishes the shivling and then it is of course pounded and taken away to Makkah and ghazni to be put on the footsteps of the mosque so that every time a faithful goes on the infidels religion comes down this is Chronicle first person account of the Court historians and today we are providing cover fire for that by saying no no it was only economic considerations and the kind of resistance one is this story of how 50 000 people did this now on his way back he wants to go back to ghaznif quickly after the demolition some of the Hindus try and you know lure him as guides his his he and his entire Army are thirsty they say we'll show you where water is and they take misguide him take him through a dry desert and then he suddenly suspicious and he asked them like where are you leading me to", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-26", "text": "he asked them like where are you leading me to 2 and then they say that you destroyed our God and so this was our way of taking revenge on you and we want to actually uh kill you of thirst and that's when he finally slays them so this sense of you know Awakening and Consciousness that a a place of sacredness of our you know country of our religion has been destroyed was so Rife and people like Professor Meenakshi Jain in her flight of Hindu deities I think she beautifully Chronicles this whole thing that constantly this effort was there to keep temples were getting destroyed whatever was happening the shivlings were saved they were moving across geographies they were being hidden in Wells in deserts in all kinds of places and resurfacing so in mathura if something is being demolished it would go all the way to rajputana and find a mandir there or go to South India Falls walls in the garbage so that that you know even in Mysore I", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-27", "text": "so that that you know even in Mysore I I heard that Hyder Ali wanted to break the chamundeshwari idol and so overnight when the priests heard of that they built a false wall and a false deity was installed and he came and you know destroyed that either it knows the nose yeah to defiled the way to see across all the temples in Karnataka yeah nobody wants to admit that you're writing a book on tipu I'm sure that is also going to rile a number of people sucker for punishment so that I'm sure you're researching on that and you know you're going to be coming to those areas where all those temples were destroyed where people were killed in thousands let let into the jungles into the into that thick tropical forest to be killed by The Animals yeah and the the forests were covered I mean we we've only uh as students of uh the central Board of secondary education and ncrt books we didn't read it of any of this yeah", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-28", "text": "books we didn't read it of any of this yeah nothing I mean from because I'm from Karnataka I've heard from aunts and uncles who've told me this but none of my classmates ever knew and I was called oh you bigoted or you heard this from pujaris or somebody who's told you that's not true and yes okay maybe tipu was a great king in the sense of a conquest he he fought or whatever but this is also part of our history yeah I mean and it's living history uh the story of the Monday mayangas of male kote whom he uh 400 500 of the family who were hanged from trees on deepavali and to this day the Monday they don't celebrate Diwali the mangalorian Christians you come from Mangalore and that side you have the konkanis the uh and then the kodavas from coorg yeah the nyers of Malabar I mean there's so much of anger uh even now Korg I'm told a lot of people call you know", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-29", "text": "I'm told a lot of people call you know disparagingly they call Street dogs so yeah that's also a living history uh and despite that we do perverse things like tipu jayanti and all of that uh only for modern political you know what banks and uh you know politics so which is sad I mean let that happen uh can't history and politics are so intertwined but I think his as historians as Scholars one needs to put out all the facts I mean this whole thing that if I tell the whole truth somebody somewhere is going to get offended I don't know why that happens when people talk about the excesses of the East India Company and the British no one is saying that it's going to offend the Christians of India right but it was not not the Christians of India but uh it was uh it was said at one point of time right because the the fear that the Brits will say no that that got over but as far as Indian history is concerned there's", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-30", "text": "but as far as Indian history is concerned there's only been one section which had a control over our Tales over our stories and now there is another lot which is coming out at least I mean you guys were always there who were like you know there are stories of ours of India which have not been told but now there is a voice that you have yeah I just feel that that it's like it's like you've you're writing your text which nobody is reading nobody of consequence is reading but now it's being read I mean I mean their books are totally out of print now it's all coming back into circulation I see the entire RC majumdar's collection available for sale and that really warms my heart because history is a discipline which should thrive on multiplicity of opinions uh to have a single monochromatic narrative and imposed almost hegemonically on the entire nation I think that does great disservice to to the discipline itself yeah and even at the heights of the of imperialism", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-31", "text": "and even at the heights of the of imperialism when you know James Mill wrote his the history of British India and colored uh India and Indians as uncivilized and that the Brits got us all a sense of culture and civilization and it was obviously a colonial lens of looking at history even uh at that time we had a lot of Scholars particularly from Maharashtra who were putting these Anonymous let you know articles in newspapers called the first Hindu h-i-n-d-o-o the second Hindu the third Hindu who were rebutting James Mill and his uh you know thesis and that led to the Spurt of what is called the Nationalist School of historiography which so the the irony is in under British colonialism we still had a national school VK rajwadi and bhandarkar and so many others jaduna sarkar and others who came that time but post Independence in Independent India they went into ether anybody who does that is a sanghi is a you know communal bigot and all these kind", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-32", "text": "a you know communal bigot and all these kind of names whereas these are different viewpoints of looking at history it's a very normal course of historiography which in this country assumes all kinds of labels that we are under the payroll of someone I'm I'm I mean I get these kind of tweets I'm like please show me the money honey where is the money coming where is that paycheck which is coming from someone but there is um you see that historians are also you know so sharply divided yes uh right so there's the conservative lot and there is the what the so-called liberal lot and the Liberals are anything but liberal about the point of view of conservatives and of course you know history there is interpretation like in literature there is interpretation so um the the lot which had a Stranglehold uh over the narrative the historical narrative over decades they are feeling threatened by this new lot of history tellers yeah uh it's not new history it's a new way of telling", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-33", "text": "not new history it's a new way of telling our history finding those lost Tales now they feel that your Hindu supremists like you have said I'm just going to quote who said that you are correcting a biased narrative that has colored persecution of bharat's uh history yeah perception sorry perception of bharat's history is it it's it's it's something that is changing and it's making many of us rethink it's hard Vikram like you know you've what you've learned in school in college once it's embedded in your head to be told that what you've read is wrong you have to be open-minded to accept it it's hard to do that very true very true right I mean uh as you rightly said those growing up years your teacher is your idol and what your history teacher has probably told you in school poor thing I mean not his or her fault they were just teaching what was there in the syllabus but to know that a lot of that is concocted uh you", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-34", "text": "that a lot of that is concocted uh you know history has written extensively on this how when he was a part of the uh the ncrt committee uh then the the the national curriculum policy or whatever that was there it was specifically told that uh anything that is inconvenient truths should not be mentioned National integration Council or something they had a circular that came out saying this is going to harm National integration and you had that Infamous circular right which the West Bengal government I think 1989 uh brought out there were two columns called and ashuddho where all the textbooks of all the uh you know across classes of West Bengal under the leftist regime there any mention of invasions ghazni gauri aurangzeb that came under ashuddho and the shuddha version was it all had to be taken off you can't mention all this because it's going to affect today's society I mean why why would you want to hyphenate today's Muslims with uh with an aurangzeb and a", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-35", "text": "Muslims with uh with an aurangzeb and a ghazni your idea should be to tell today's Indian Muslims that they are not your role models and they are not someone you need to look look up to as your icons your you are actually hyphenating them and tell and to do this you're fabricating history whitewashing the crimes whitewashing the genocides the destruction which has happened over 800 2000 years so I don't understand where this need comes from to make a community feel secure you need icons of the same community and to even there if you do I mean a dharashiko is a better role model than an aurangzeb so you don't need uh people who will come and tell us from outside India the famous Infamous biographer of aurangzeb that he protected more temples than he destroyed yeah right I mean Hitler also protected more Jews than he killed so these kind of crazy you know nitwits come and become the voice of scholarship has no mention in at least when I", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-36", "text": "scholarship has no mention in at least when I was and I'm good you know when I knew that I'm going to be interviewing you yeah I got all these textbooks because you know I mean my thing goes back to when I was in school and uh after that when my children were in school and there was nothing and I've said this before uh in in interviews and podcasts and everything that you know um all we knew was that the South Indian kingdoms was a choice question and it was a three month Choice question so if you didn't want to top your class in history the three marks you could avoid so cholas we could just completely ignore vijayanagara architecture so that two marks you just learned vijayanagar architecture hundred percent it is coming so that most people read the kunji the guide and learn about architecture it's like you know like when you're reading about harappa you know Harappan civilization okay let's read about the seal yeah one question will come on the seal yeah right", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-37", "text": "yeah one question will come on the seal yeah right so or uh you are going to get a question on the sewage system yeah yeah the roads in there it was the right angles and you know all those things you're going to get that uh on Akbar you knew like then you read about Mahatma Gandhi from Salt satyagrah onwards everything you read Because hundred percent there will be a 10 marker there will be a five marker there will be multiple choice everything on gandhiji will be there so you'll read gandhiji in detail yeah now so I said okay now that he's coming class 10 India and contemporary word none of your heroes are there in this okay um I'm gonna come to uh okay this is seven is interesting okay so this is class 10 uh I'm going to come here is your uh I'm going to come to class eight and the others so um class uh 12 part 3 Indian history none of your heroes are here right class 11. None Of Your Heroes class 12. nothing nothing", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-38", "text": "11. None Of Your Heroes class 12. nothing nothing none of your heroes are here Class 12 another book themes None Of Your Heroes but you're yes I hope you're getting this yes so you know whose heroes are here yes okay no uh class nine uh there is a little bit of mention when we are talking about class nine this this one is only about contemporary so it's not there uh in this when we are talking a little bit about uh your class eight there is one or two when it comes to women and caste system when it comes but and then maybe a few people are mentioned but nothing much okay now we come to this class seven oh that's the interesting book I love that yeah for various reasons yeah so there is chalukyas here in a map right yeah I mean there's hardly any mention of I'm looking at this that oh these are the new kingdoms it comes under new kingdoms yeah right it comes under new kings and new kingdoms and then of course it has got everything about", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-39", "text": "and then of course it has got everything about um what is hiranya Garba yeah you understand why it is written about hiranya Garba because it will be a one marker yes yes so somewhere let's put something which we can use as a thing but no you know what you talk about about the rashtrakutas and all which you talk about no they're all covered in that map in that map finish map this is how these people occupied this part of the and little bit about the administration and of course Vijay nagara is mentioned uh and then I mean oh in the in that too yeah a little bit no the just see uh all the coverage he gets is a photograph so 25 the entire book there's no description about who he was or what his achievements were just a photograph and a caption so that's all a child would read about shivaji Maharaj in India so when I mentioned this months long ago on Twitter about Indian textbooks and it's not there then I had a whole bunch of so-called liberal", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-40", "text": "then I had a whole bunch of so-called liberal uh uh liberal supporting people who you know who turned around and said God knows which history she's read I've read cbse but yeah I've gone through cbsc systems some of them were Bombay based yeah so you know people who've studied in Maharashtra yes okay you've gone through State uh you know history books and in in your state uh boards you might have read a little bit about shivaji Maharaj and you know about it but as far as the national yeah cbse basically what we read was that he was a loser yeah I'm sorry you can sue me if you want but what we read about was how he lost yeah yeah how he was killed Maharana Pratap how he lost the haldighati yes it was an indecisive battle by the way and a few years later they actually the battle of the divar they actually reconquered whatever they had lost mewar that is not talked about no yeah we read about the battles which", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-41", "text": "about no yeah we read about the battles which are great uh heroes or should have been our heroes they're Regional Heroes yeah then we lost the battles that they lost is part of central Board of secretary education and ncrt books nothing has changed right why are our new historians or I shouldn't say new historians but historians of repute who are now writing about are his Our Heroes why is it not been Incorporated why still that is a right question to the wrong person you have uh you know uh the ears and um eyes and them everything of the government and I think that should be addressed to someone in the government or not okay uh let me tell you that uh the first time that I could get through to uh somebody I did ask might as well mention it now yeah I mentioned it to advani ji and he was home minister or he had just become hominister in fact it was like they had just been sworn in and he was home minister and I took my son's history books and", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-42", "text": "minister and I took my son's history books and I showed it and I said these are the history books this is what is being taught up Yahoo guys garlic is there going to be any correction at all and he said murli manohar Joshi is now hrd at that time it came under hrd he's on hrd look and there will be a change and the incorrect depiction of our some of our Warriors some of our some some of the history narrative will be changed because how many years nothing has happened yeah I think I don't know now there's this there's a lot of talk of this new education policy and a national curriculum framework or whatever and there was this entire committee under Dr vinay sahasra Buddha who uh the Parliamentary committee particularly for textbooks and this whole thrust on unsung heroes and heroines need to be included but I don't know why it's taking so long because there is content there is material which all that needs to be done is incorporated because every year", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-43", "text": "needs to be done is incorporated because every year is like one generation lost and most children don't read history Beyond say class 10 or 12. yeah um they Branch out into other disciplines so the only brush they have with history or engagement with our country and its past he is only such a limited span so after that what you mentioned then it becomes a lot of unlearning and relearning uh so you've you've had an entire generation go uh you know not entire one generation several jobs that's what every year is like one one loss and they're they're going to have this further you know instilled in their heads as they graduate to college where I think the uh the content gets more toxic uh and more self-loathing and more uh you know you're looking at yourself with so much of derision I'm saying it's a very thin line Smith I think you know the I've mentioned it even in the prologue to this book that uh it can run down the slippery slope of jingoism and everything about", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-44", "text": "the slippery slope of jingoism and everything about our past is great I don't think it's that also I mean one shouldn't go that there was a golden uh Golden Era and then there was invasions and the dark era so that sort of a narrative also uh it becomes very uh very very problematic thing to to make everything that way correct and many I have seen many of these uh you know um literary festivals go down that path where you know in these two extremes that everything was in the The Glorious era was in the past yeah and then came islamization and then was our downfall and then the British came in this it's very reductive yeah yeah so I I think there needs to be the time has come where people genuine scholarship can be put inside a room people can sit across a table and have a grand Indian narrative as to what have what's been our story uh in the 5000 years or whatever of our documented existence uh and like China says until the", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-45", "text": "our documented existence uh and like China says until the Lions have their storytellers uh the history of the hunt will always glorify the Hunter and I think that's all we've been doing it's so well said yeah yeah so you know uh has not found I think the the lions in India have not found their Storyteller and that is the reason we see Indian history only through the eyes and details of all our Invaders but never of our native Heroes and heroines you know we talked about how the uh the shivlings were taken everywhere the Joe titlings were taken everywhere and saved and things like that um so when there's a lot that we have talked about and we have seen also it's a lived history of temples broken Idols chopped uh you know and like you said the jyotirlings taken everywhere prisoners slaves Sati johar there are so many so many of these instances of Loot and destruction uh you talked about how the slaves were taken or the the princesses were taken and", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-46", "text": "were taken or the the princesses were taken and kept in the Harem uh in spite of that there are some intangibles these were the tangibles of the jyotirlinga but some intangibles of culture and all have still survived how did they last to to my mind I think the very fact our strength was our diversity there was nothing called uh you know one religion one book One Faith one message the multiplicity in every every few kilometers I think there was a different uh Faith system and sanatan Dharma embraced everything uh from The Vedic to the tantric to the animist and shamanic Pagan rituals to uh atheism all of it was was accepted so if for an Invader to come and destroy if there was just one thing to destroy it would have just taken one blow but here they were you'd destroy one ten other things bring up uh and you know we're almost like the bijasur we keep springing up every time someone is uh destroyed and they uh the maximum efforts were", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-47", "text": "uh destroyed and they uh the maximum efforts were made to destroy all our centers of learning whether it was nalanda and vikramshila all our universities libraries all of these were burnt down but a lot of our knowledge survived despite that because it was oral tradition it survived through Word of Mouth generation to generation you killed a guru 10 of his shishias were there who propagated that in whatever diluted form of course we lost out a lot of the original content but I think a lot of it also perpetuated and survived and that is that story of resilience of us as a civilization that deserves to be told and that is what when I say the grand Indian narrative needs to come it's not with a sense of false jingoism or false Pride it's a sense of genuine Pride history has that utility too to this other what why are we reading these stories of the past it makes no sense to anyone to memorize by Road who came after whom it has", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-48", "text": "memorize by Road who came after whom it has little relevance or you utility in life beyond I mean everyone is going to become a engineer or a doctor or an economist or something else a foreign policy expert where does all this help you I think this sense of identity the sense of self-worth as a nation as a people and the mirror that it holds to us I think that utility of History fun has as the goal and then sets out the how do you you know populate it with the stories and the anecdotes and the incidents that is what is needed to be done now in my view you talked about diversity and being you know it's all coming under that umbrella of sanatana now this is what is you know Hindus are accused of this is this that you co-opt all of this yeah and you are you are mitigating or you're you're just kind of obliterating non-metically sorry obliterating uh you know the specific identities when you talk about animism this tribal form of", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-49", "text": "when you talk about animism this tribal form of worship of gods you're also this is also Hinduism Jainism you're also offshoot of Hinduism so this the criticism is that you're this you're adopting you're taking over everything I mean that of course you know where I'm leading to about Kamala Hassan oh God I am going to so first both these are questions into one one is was where the Chola is Hindu afterward Kamala Hassan said in the debate that got generated and two about this co-opting all this because kantra has raised all this you know that um my part of the country by the way and we talked about Rani abaka we'll come to that also of Buddha that's how basically you know frankly I got to know only about Rana Rani abaka through some childhood memory of yakshagana that I saw as a child not from my history texts right yeah so now come to this cholas and about animism and tribal version I mean if", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-50", "text": "and about animism and tribal version I mean if the cholas are not Hindu uh I'm first of all this is such a useless comment which should have just been ignored like how I ignored Rahul Gandhi's thing but I'm glad some people didn't because that generated I think a lot more knowledge and curiosity and inquisitiveness about the children yeah and rest of India about the vindhyas who look down on everyone below the vindias as madrasis they got to know that you know and thanks what a Grand Empire yeah thanks to Pony and Sylvan there's a increased I'm told uh the the book itself is selling so much the opponians the translations and all that after this movie has come and this controversy that way helped but to say that someone who's built the tallest uh you know Shiva Temple bredeshwara and gangaikunda cholapuram and the temple there uh they were worshipers of all aspects of uh you know the sanatan faith I mean they their ancestor they", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-51", "text": "know the sanatan faith I mean they their ancestor they called initially tiruman who was Lord Vishnu and then they called themselves as suryavanshis so they also propitiate propitiated the Surya and their family deity was this form of Devi called nishumba sudhini they had muruga temples ganpati was an important Motif in all the Chola you know flags and architecture and all of that yagyas were big yagyas mahadanas and all these were done by all the ranis and the rajas according to Vedic Traditions Sanskrit and Tamil were equally patronized those who could chant in both the languages they were patronized and these inscriptions the best part of the cholas is they've left so much of documentation yeah for a for a nation which has always been accused of not knowing how to keep its history uh right from al-baruni to everyone who said the Hindus don't know how to maintain their records the cholas have gone overboard my multiple copies of the same information on coins on", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-52", "text": "my multiple copies of the same information on coins on Temple walls on palm leaf copper plates the thiruvalangadu copper plates which are there that has right up in Java Sumatra yes and Sri Lanka Maldives all of these and these mention all these rituals The Vedic tradition uh the these things that were done and all the different panthas within sanatan Dharma were appeased and patronized and today the Builders of the most beautiful and wonderful temp Hindu temples you call them as not Hindu I think that's what our other dear friend Anand ranganathan in one of his many witty comebacks had said so are you going to say that till the time oxygen was invented and named so people were not breathing what were they breathing so the name Hindu was probably developed over the ages or whatever that's again subject to debate some people say it's I'm going to quote from your book uh Vikram yeah you've written in this that they had eliminated all possible rivals on", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-53", "text": "this that they had eliminated all possible rivals on the eastern coast of the subcontinent captured Kerala with its many important ports of Malabar and occupied Maldives and Sri Lanka this put them in a pole position as a leading player in Maritime trade of Asia as they held sway over several major trading ports again no mention of uh the the Chola is about their trading Maritime ability I mean the the very Malay word today the Malay word of today Malaysia and Indonesia was divided between SRI Vijaya in the west and the kingdom of mataram in Java now these are tell me these are not Indian words these are not Hindu words these are not what is it what are these and you know to come back to the cholas yeah I'm just you know your the Chola thing other than uh you know the Kings the the kingdom itself it is so readable that part yeah and um the the living proof of that is what you see in Southeast Asia where there are so many", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-54", "text": "you see in Southeast Asia where there are so many Hindu temples the Hindu motives whether it's a you know ramley line uh Indonesia Muslim country where still you know the the the culture is still they have those Hindu roots and traditions Bali and all these places you see even uh Garuda yeah Garuda varuna yes you don't see Garuda and varuna uh there's Ganesha on the currency yeah well someone else here wants Ganesha on the currency but then we have Ganesha on the currency I think in Indonesia yeah a Muslim country so all of these Trace back to those times when we had so much of and all these were facilitated not through Colonial activity we never colonized it's only cultural influence and trade inspired by trade shipping and Maritime tell me about that also which you talked about the south kingdoms yeah which you talk about particularly the cholas I mean they have indeed detail mentioned how their ships were built and how they went in the high seas the different kinds of", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-55", "text": "went in the high seas the different kinds of ships yeah different kinds of ships one the one which went only for seafaring and Merchant uh you know Activity one for battleships like a naval Armada and uh these the best part was at a time 10 25 CE uh when rajendra Chola attacked SRI Vijaya uh which is in uh the Malay Peninsula to actually have his entire ships go and attack 14 ports when there were no compasses and so on to know the direction how did they actually navigate the Seas so that also threw a lot of astrology astronomy wind directions that they studied in a particular nakshatra when the uh you know off in the Marga months when there is some nakshatra in the sky at that point the wind is going in this particular direction and this speed so then the ship leaves the port at this particular time then it is going to go and directly hit the port of Sri Vijaya I mean that kind of precision with which these people went and", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-56", "text": "that kind of precision with which these people went and did what they did and the the cholas along with the fatimids in Egypt and the song dynasty in China we were almost uh you know Global Powers when it came to the maritime trade these were the three major Powers at that time when it came to the entire uh you know Indian Ocean and Southeast Asian trade uh but you know that that that aspect that we were an important global economic power and also military power is seldom emphasized in the manner it should be uh foreign students if nothing else you know that um read up pick up text pick up books uh which tell you that India was a maritime power what we did with our you know otherwise what we've only learned about European Nations then being Maritime powers or even maybe even if you move towards uh Egypt and you know there two Central Asian countries being Maritime Powers but Indian Maritime achievements are not talked about and maybe 500 years later the re-establishment of that Maritime par under", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-57", "text": "years later the re-establishment of that Maritime par under chatrapati shivaji Maharaja and who I think understood the importance of uh you know Coast Guard built so many forts Coastal forts Across the Western you know concurrent and that entire Western Maharashtra region and that's why I featured kanhoji angre who was the circle of the the maratha Navy and uh if shivaji Maharaj was the father of the maratha Navy and probably Indian Navy we now have his Insignia also on the naval flag which is you know long overdue it was kanhoji angre who gave action to shivaji maharaj's dreams and though unlike the Chola as the maratha Navy never went into the high seas they were more like Coast coast guards what the European Parts would probably call Pirates but then they ensured that to trade in our country you need to get the permissions of the local uh you know power that be so be the Portuguese the Dutch or the English East India Company or even the", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-58", "text": "Dutch or the English East India Company or even the siddhis who were there in that part of the country they had a very tough time with kanoji uh to to to to get access to trading on the western coast since we are in the Deccan I'm going to move to Karnataka and uh since you and I both are from that state you know um when uh when when I came to the I mean I I went back and forth so when I came to Rani abaka what I did not know for certain is that there were there wasn't one Rani abaka yeah there were four of them and each one was different and you know had different uh contributions to make and uh I this came as a surprise so maybe people who studied from Karnataka board knew about it but there's certainly no mention about her nothing that we read about maybe or something like that as students you could get but if you did not have access to a British Council library or if you didn't have access", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-59", "text": "a British Council library or if you didn't have access you did not know about many of the people that you mentioned and certainly not about Rania bhaka yeah so and also there were like you know I'm going to read out again as I said I've got these points which I've got marked out which I find so fascinating and I'm going to read out in this um about abaka as the uh the Warrior Princess you know this fierce battle between the Portuguese and abaka took place in one 555 CE and when the former Center former sent Admiral Dom Alvaro does Silvera against the queen with 21 battleships several innocent people in ulal were tortured and murdered by the invading Fleet attempts were made to desecrate the somnatha temple in ulal which was bravely resisted by the nayakas of abaka who died fighting for this cause and then you talk about launching a surprise attack on them are we still talking about the Portuguese abaka managed to kill General", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-60", "text": "about the Portuguese abaka managed to kill General pixoto I'm I'm presuming that's the pronunciation and 70 of his soldiers the Invaders fled to their ships being thoroughly disgraced abaka followed in Hot Pursuit and killed the admiral of the fleet mascaranas along with the help of her 6 000 soldiers and the foreign army was forced to vacate Mangalore Fort would a brave lady yeah and her successor does something more heroic yeah in all these coconut chippu you put you know the ammunition and that's hurled at the in the middle of the night the RPG of then yes okay these were the grenades of them grenades and the entire Portuguese Fleet uh you know was burnt away that way and those stories traveled across the world apparently to the court of a Persian Emperor who talks about this incident of a small little principality in India whose Queen and her Army destroyed the mighty Portuguese Fleet and so uh one of the uh appear through de", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-61", "text": "and so uh one of the uh appear through de la Val whose Italian traveler he comes to India particularly then to see who is this lady uh you know who about whom the Emperor of Persia is talking about and so a lot of the uh the chapter of abaka is also first person account of De La Belle and what he saw about her how he of course thought that she was not at all pretty she was dark and obese and not the idea of the queen that he had you know cruel what he said and then he he uh calibrated calibrated after uh that that's very nicely depicted in that and he uses such crude words about her that it was she was dark and she was short and she was not wearing an upper garment yes but he did say that when she started talking he was fascinated yeah with that she was of nobility and she had such maternal concern for us for a stranger and a foreigner she asked him uh she asked somebody who's this", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-62", "text": "asked him uh she asked somebody who's this guy he looks different and strange and then he started a translator helps them connect and he says I've traveled all over the world and she very lovingly asks him have you had suffered heart breaks which is why you're going you know to soothe your heart he had thought that she can't talk because she doesn't have teeth right I I found and that she was into black magic and killing her own kids yeah all kinds of tales that's again another thing against women rulers uh you know even across the world actually yeah it's a global thing that they've had that they were witches and if they were not burnt at the stake that's another thing I want to say you know we keep talking about Sati as an Indian phenomenon women were burnt at the stake burnt in the western world too yeah so it's not in just an Indian phenomenon anyway I digress go on so yeah but the uh you know um I was", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-63", "text": "so yeah but the uh you know um I was talking with sushil who's uh my producer who's also from Karnataka and are we saying that you know uh my I read about ulal yes but what is my memory of ulala what is my thing of ulal is like not a single place where it says okay Battlefield this is where I only think I know about I read about bangadi only in your think banga you know the kingdom of I didn't even know there was a kingdom of banga and all I've done is take a state transport bus probably from there to here but to think that they were these famous battles that were fought there yeah historic battles people who lived there don't know Vikram correct true which is the saddest part and in fact I I believe even the uh the Chota Dynasty uh to which a Bakka belonged till about a couple of decades ago even they didn't know that there was someone called a Bakka in their family it was some kind", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-64", "text": "a Bakka in their family it was some kind of a scroll or something that they discovered when I met The Descendants uh they told me that probably 50 years 60 years ago they didn't know they had some vague idea that there was some heroic lady but the details were unknown even to the family so that is how undocumented it just disappeared into something and of course the memory was kept alive thanks to the folk rituals but the historical details were revealed much later through some scroll which they got and then slowly a lot of Scholars started putting together Dr vasantha madhava and so many others in coastal Karnataka they they started piecing together information about this these ladies who are called abaka deviaru in plural in that part so it was never so the yakshagana the recitals that I have been to so as it child when I heard about Rani abaka and and I saw this this is my earliest memories of a yakshagana recital Rani abaka was mentioned in", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-65", "text": "yakshagana recital Rani abaka was mentioned in one of that but you know it I was told that this is Legend not historical fact yeah so somewhere in all these you know people that you mentioned somewhere this Legend myth mythology history all this is all blending yeah so where how do you figure out it's only that's how our history has always been written and I think uh that's been the Indian way of historiography what about that well that too I mean in the same context where you know you invoke not only a deity but also ancestor worship ancestors and also kings and queens and all of that and so while mainstream historiography may have been unfair to all these people there nobody can take away the lived experience of a folk performance uh where as you also remember that there is someone like this maybe the your textbook did not talk about her which is so sad but she lives on in memory I think now the time has come to also bring them into the scholarly domain", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-66", "text": "come to also bring them into the scholarly domain and also document facts about them from whatever little fragments of story are left behind of all these people I think that um I mean in the prologue I talk about this shloka that is there about what history is in the Indian imagination you know um where it said that in a format of a story and for what purpose one is to achieve the four pillars of purusharta Dharma Kama Moksha and also upadesha samantham it has to have a didactic value to it there has to be moral value for society that which does all of this it is called as itihasa which it's also broken down in Sanskrit Isa it thus happened so I think it was a in the within that entire Cocoon of the story I think the kernel of the truth was somewhere embedded and it was up to the uh you know the the Seeker to actually get that out so the puranas the Mahabharata and the ramayana which are traditionally", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-67", "text": "Mahabharata and the ramayana which are traditionally called the itihasa have such fantastic you know mythological Tales rajatarangini too I mean it has all kinds of fanciful tales and gods and goddesses and you know yakshas and this and that and all these stories are there but in that somewhere is also embedded the the historical truth and I think that's how our ancestors saw preservation of knowledge of all forms not only history I mean even mathematics and so on everything was written in a kavya format the role of the kavi the Maha kavyas that were written so they say the sulbasutras have the Pythagoras I mean the Pythagoras Theorem was inspired by the sulbasutras but if you go to the suluba sutras and see it's not a formula like the best a square equal to b square plus C Square it will be in some form Square on the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the square of the other two sides so so they give", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-68", "text": "square of the other two sides so so they give the longer form of that but they're in a in a poem poem somewhere would be embedded this this truth of that uh you know mathematical equation so in everything we had a very different it was not knowledge had to be sought it's not so easily spoon fed to you so similarly History Two was written in kavya form it had to have this Katha yuktam it had to have some upadesha to society and that is how we wrote our history that's how you have written this also it's very caviar form it's there is a uh if I was to uh if somebody was to ask me what is linking these guys that you have picked the 15 of them I can't I can't actually put a tangible thing that ha okay this is what is linking them but then like you said that there is a moral to the story there is there is something linking them what is that magical thing that links them do you", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-69", "text": "what is that magical thing that links them do you do you know of anything or did you pick them because there was some linking I think it just fell in place by itself it was really quite uh you know the way all of all of these just assembled themselves I uh after an initial planning and later on I say hey I think there is a mosaic that just got created you know without my active conscious uh effort into doing this of course as I said lot of other people got missed out but I think so there's an episode two which is after that okay so uh Vikram tell me about Sharda Pete it's so close to my heart I mean uh it there is a linkage so that's why I want to just ask you well uh I mean when I was doing this uh research on the Lalita chapter uh I saw that you know again the indic imagination of what a great Empire is it's of course you know all the opulence the magnificence of palaces and temples", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-70", "text": "opulence the magnificence of palaces and temples and all of that but alongside each Empire I think contested with another to be a center of learning and knowledge so even Lalita when he goes and conquers Yeshua varman and all these people he brings Scholars from that part to his court if the idol from the you know normally they say um Idols were destroyed even by Hindu rulers which is not true you would take away the idol of your opponent bring it back to your kingdom and build a much more magnificent Temple for the same Idol so you're not demolishing the ideal like the iconoclastic waves of Islamic conquest did uh whatever is precious to your opponent be it intellectuals be it deities you're bringing it back and giving it a better uh you know importance in your Dom Main and that's how you have conquered your your opponent so I think Lalita the kind of people and all these bhava bhuti the poet all these people who come to", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-71", "text": "bhuti the poet all these people who come to the Kashmir Court charvak sushruta uh the ayurveda this one and Atri Gupta is the grandfather of abhinav Gupta who begins this entire Kashmir shaivism school um Tantra Kashmir shaivism tantric this one Buddhism and how that influenced even the Tibetan School of Buddhism all originating from Kashmir astronomy astrology it was invaritably the center of knowledge and learning and that's why I think around the same time when ADI shankaracharya goes there and by then he has established the much that the four cardinal points of India south west north and east and then goes up to Kashmir and establishes the what is the sarvagna Pete the all-knowing and dedicated to Sharda who is the goddess of learning and the script there is also Sharda script of Kashmir uh so the Pinnacle of knowledge of civilization of culture along with material opulence uh you know Empires expansion going to all these different parts", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-72", "text": "know Empires expansion going to all these different parts the importance of social knowledge which has been destroyed for that very reason that that I think had the quintessence of the Indian civilization to a large extent which had to be destroyed you have to break the back of us as a people I can understand that that was that was their aim yeah what was the what is the explanation succeeding generation hundreds of years that we don't tell our children this even today if we were to hold say a literary Festival in Srinagar will this come out I don't think so no right yeah yeah even today we don't talk about it yeah so that's what that's why I want you know stories which you tell in the book I just hope it inspires people to pick up and read about it read about even if you are from Kashmir if you are from the Northeast like oh yeah I I didn't talk about the Northeast so let's let's go into that let's go into the Northeast part when we talk", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-73", "text": "let's go into the Northeast part when we talk about the home kingdoms uh the mateys let's talk about that tell me something about that before we conclude I mean the Holmes rule for 600 years yeah in Assam and they kept it largely an impregnable Fortress buying a couple of attacks near Joomla and others uh Assam was not conquered and the large part of western Assam which meal Joomla conquered during aurangzeb's time was within a matter of 10 years 12 years the the homes completely reorganized themselves built themselves from scratch under their ruler chakra and his uh commander lachit bharpukan and we have the Battle of Sarai ghat uh you know where the mughals were beaten black and blue and sent back uh Raja Ram Singh of Jaipur who's sent with a huge Army by aurangzeb to conquer the kamrup back he's defeated completely and this again doesn't nobody knows about now as I said of course thanks to all these efforts we have the", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-74", "text": "of course thanks to all these efforts we have the 400th year of legit uh being said Divas being celebrated and himanta Sharma has picked it up and made it his life's Mission I think so I'm so glad she's so glad and I think he's also written to all the chief Ministers of all states that they should include one chapter of lachit in their respective uh you know School curriculum the entire details of from the Assam burunjis the the documentation uh in Assam is so uh so beautifully captured I was so uh pleasantly surprised to see what are called the burunjis which are the the Chronicles the multiple uh you know editions of these covering almost the entire span of their Rule and these have been digitized the previous Assam governments all of them have done a lot of work on restoration of this but why is mainstream what is mainstream first of all what is why is mainstream India not listening to these stories similarly the metis rulers I talk about Palm", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-75", "text": "stories similarly the metis rulers I talk about Palm Harbor in the book nagaland and Manipur yeah yeah it spans yes I mean the borders are different from what they are now now so that entire region I mean was the one who introduced Hinduism in Manipur uh and then his successor whom I cover in the book uh Singh brings this whole vaishnav sampraday the manipuri RAS Leela that you see today then natasan kirtana all of that happens under him the govind ji uh Shri govindji in Manipur was established by him he offers his own daughter as Radha uh to the because it the idol of Radha could not be sculpted on time for the installation and they all wonder what to do and he offers his own little young daughter as and creates this dance form so while on the one hand he is also keeping the Burmese armies a Czech who are constantly invading Manipur there's a toss of the throne between the two mateys and the", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-76", "text": "of the throne between the two mateys and the Burmese but at the same time he's also doing a spiritual and cultural Renaissance the name Manipur also is very sanskritic name is given to the kingdom by him and today if vaishnav you know satras and so on in Assam Manipur that entire region it's all because of you know these roots of the ahomes and the metis and these people so the civilizational heroes that I spoke of may not be in the traditional sense of going to a battlefield and fighting but keeping your faith alive and probably creating a Renaissance there in the wake of adversities and calamities I think that's where their contribution becomes so important but again we don't know much about them we don't read about them yes and so that's why I'm hoping that you know there is curiosity generated uh and people read and make up their own minds rather than being you know told that this is right or wrong read read about your cultural history read about uh something", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-77", "text": "read read about your cultural history read about uh something that you were supposed to be embarrassed about you'd have no reason to be embarrassed about that and I mean it's not I I think we should also mention our Follies it's not always that you know like I said everything about the past is great and we we were the best I mean the other extreme we knew the in nuclear bombs we knew everything I mean some of it is true some of it is fantastic so I mean too much of that exaggeration is also correct I think goes on the Looney path so I think a balance is needed yeah where things about ourselves our ancestors their achievements we were not sitting idle for five thousand years six thousand years doing nothing so what were the knowledge systems created what were the achievements we had what were the take Tales of courage and resistance we put that famous couple it is thrown at us right what is that kuch it's not of course the spiritual strength of this", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-78", "text": "it's not of course the spiritual strength of this civilization but along with that there was also military strength just through spiritual resistance you can't stay alive for so many even all other civilizations of your own time have actually collapsed so I think that story of this country is dying to be told and to quote that uh famous speech this the soul of a Nation long suppressed I think needs to find utterance now when there is a genuine Reawakening among Common People of India irrespective of the political dispensation of who's in power and what I mean today I think the common Indian has awakened uh and they're asking questions and that is what Riles a lot of status quo is and establishmentarians who do not want the subaltern to speak so um Vikram before we conclude uh this is uh since we are three uh sitting out here so she my producer is also here so we're going to put one controversy a historical controversy yeah I'd say you since you're the historian yes the", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-79", "text": "I'd say you since you're the historian yes the historical controversy to rest and this is for you Anand right we're going to have Mysore Park out here and I have a historian here who's going to tell us Mysore Park Karnataka of course or Tamil no way Tamil it is and I mean we we know the story it was an albedi krishna's Court where I mean I think he wanted suddenly he said I want to have something sweet to eat and the cook did not have anything else to do so he just cooked some you know jaggery and this and that and he put some besan powder and made some random dish and brought it to the Maharaja who loved it and said what is this called so he said my suru Paka the Paka the the entire this one that is sugar sugar and that's how the Mysore Park was born and these the millions other than kaveri water they also wanted myself not done now by the way I'm half a", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-80", "text": "not done now by the way I'm half a million to be honest and half a maharashtrian so we are not working together side might actually disown me for doing this but then to spite Anand anything anything right here so let's let's God on the Mysore Park in this in honor so I'm gonna have my editor also come in he's from Kerala Anand so he's he's the neutral guy now you come so we're going to have to like like the heroes and heroines of our book um we've created this alliance with yes other states against the common enemy so come now you are going to you are going to have so now Kerala is with us yeah right so we're building the alliance are there any other states no but this is Mysore Park and Mysore Park is so on that note on that throwing the gauntlet on that sweet note and after throwing the gauntlet and I'm 100 certain that Anand is going to go on on a television network forget about a podcast", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "17ec22cb85b0-81", "text": "on on a television network forget about a podcast you can go on a television network and put us down but then we have decided that Mysore Park is right right Karnataka right thank you Vikram so much thank you so much for writing this book and for coming and speaking on the AI podcast thank you Smitha such a pleasure and thanks for the Mysore Pak and thanks that we settled it the historical debate once for all I'd already settled it in coimbatore when Anand and I were there but I think this is more on records absolutely absolutely we only factual stuff yes right thank you thank you thank you very much okay thank you for watching or listening in to this edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have heard this or seen this namaste foreign [Music]", "source": "RYB5fK6VSt0"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-0", "text": "the transgressions are not actually localized only Eastern ladakh we have areas of different perceptions right from Eastern ladakh to arunachal the various agreements which are in place categorically rule out the use of force or resorting to firing but you cannot only observe one paragraph of the agreement and violate all others for the first time ever they were cautious that this tactics or this strategy of theirs of trying to overwhelm by Superior force will not work but if you have now coming with clubs studied with barbed wire what does that mean you violated the agreement India as a country showed to the world yeah that it is possible to take on that neighborhood bully we have as a nation the political establishment all the other Ministries and the bureaucrats the military establishment or population our population which has so much regard and appreciation for our armed forces that is our greatest strength Namaste welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash we are recording and broadcasting this episode on the", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-1", "text": "we are recording and broadcasting this episode on the week of Vijay Divas we've also just recently heard of Chinese aggression on our border we are honored today to have amidst US general Manoj mukund naravani in this podcast I'm also joined by my colleague defense editor Ajit tube General Manoj mukund naravani served as the 27th chief of the Army staff till April 2022 he took over from General bipin rawat General naravani's tenure was in action-filled one especially the Chinese aggression of 2000. General naravanay's contribution in pushing back the enemy will make it to history book someday but as you will see in the podcast the mild manner General will never speak much about his own role in India's counter move that resulted in India's troops regaining Advantage On the Border however General naravani took us back to that period when we were attacked along the line of actual control what happened then what were the lessons learned how it has probably impacted in our", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-2", "text": "lessons learned how it has probably impacted in our reaction to China's aggression in 2022 General naravanevi are so honored that you're here with us Ajit and I have had the Good Fortune of attending your press briefings I've met you in your office uh when you were chief of Army staff uh you know when uh when a chief of Army staff superannuates the uh The Establishment whether it is uh your the political establishment or the services they get to say thank you but civilians don't get to say thank you to you sir so thank you for your services and on behalf of all our viewers all our listeners uh we are most grateful for what you have done for our country for having me here today and I'm grateful for your thanks but the thanks are not actually due to me but to the entire Indian army who is actually in the service of the nation so that's that's again typical of you to say this you that's the fact actually right so uh for our viewers and our", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-3", "text": "fact actually right so uh for our viewers and our listeners uh we are running uh this program a day um uh before Vijay divas and uh also we are running this uh program a day after it has come uh to the attention of all of us that there has been a Chinese aggression uh in arunachal Pradesh and as we are recording this program uh raksha mantri is uh speaking or going to speak soon in Parliament uh the three service Chiefs have briefed the raksha mantri Mr rajnath Singh and he is going to be speaking in Parliament so in the middle of the show we will probably interrupt and get uh General Subs views on this um you know when uh when China tried to alter the status of the line of actual control this was on uh in May 2020 uh at that time you were the Army Chief uh tell us what happened then uh and the subsequent months because the tension continued uh the aggression continued for several months and uh what was the situation", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-4", "text": "for several months and uh what was the situation then and how did you deal with it when you see China has been trying to alter the status go along the Lac for many years and decades in fact and they have been doing this in very small incremental steps which by themselves do not look very dangerous they'll actually look quite innocuous you know what we call Salami slicing coming up one inch at a time but in the bargain over a period of time they have gained a lot and this is the tactics that they were have adopted and we are continuing to do but there was a time to say this much and no further so that is what actually happened as they kept trying to probe especially north of the pengang so when they were trying to probe and come closer and closer in these areas of differing perception you know they come time and again and then they try to make that the historical fact that we've always been coming here whether they try to alter the status quo", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-5", "text": "coming here whether they try to alter the status quo as it is existing when you say come what does that mean when they come and they don't leave you mean they stay sometimes they that is what we can test that is precisely what happens in these areas where we have different perceptions we also petrol up to our perception line they come up to their perception line but while this is happening if the petrols come face to face at the same time then obviously there is a chance of a skirmation or a clash happening so what happened in 2020 did we not have the Intel that they have come and they are not leaving no it's not that they came in were not leaving their they were continuously patrolling up to where they thought that they should be coming but they were not allowing us to go where we are out to go therefore we had to be more assertive and push them back and that is where the clashes occurred whether it is a North Bank of bengang", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-6", "text": "occurred whether it is a North Bank of bengang so or whether it is in pp15 where of course those unfortunate casualties took place the pp-15 means the galwan valley the galwan valley that's right so what happened in galwanza as I said we have been always patrolling up to pp15 where they were trying to stop us from going to a traditional patrolling point and that was totally unacceptable to us and to stop us from coming they had established a small Outpost you can say just two tents and we objected very vehemently to that but this was in May 2020. it was ongoing it was going on so we objected vehemently to that but there were adamant that they would not go back and therefore we had to be more assertive and that is when they also came with additional strength and the entire Clash happened in that area of short of means on our side of pp15 but as a result we were able to make sure that they go back so when you say", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-7", "text": "make sure that they go back so when you say we are we were assertive we were vehement what does that translate to actually yeah so you see over the years they've been many protocols which have been laid down whether it is on Border peace and Tranquility agreement the bpta or protocol and confidence building measures so in all of them the various Provisions to make sure that such clashes do not occur for example if two patrols come to face to face they have to stop wherever we first see each other and then only the leaders come up along with one buddy and negotiate at that point and then they go back you're not supposed to come close together the strength of the petrols have been laid down So that obviously if both sides are equal strength the chances of a clash are less but the one side is 500 and the other side is 15 and obviously the side which is 500 feels emboldened so over a period of time they were violating one by one all the", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-8", "text": "of time they were violating one by one all the provisions of those those agreements so at some point we had also to counter them so they were violating then obviously we had to take counter measures that is what I mean by we were more assertive and not taking things lying down see as per the timeline which we have I mean there are very various timelines to this because nobody is quite sure but in May China transgresses in 2020 in August India accuses China of provoking and then subsequently several transgressions happen and as you said we protest we object then India accuses China of provoking military tensions twice in August China denies blames India for standoff in September China accuses India of firing shots at its troops and then exchange of fire first time in 45 years happen now you're the Army Chief at that time what was going on in your mind because were you then at that time because you've said several times that you have to be prepared for War as an army Chief you", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-9", "text": "to be prepared for War as an army Chief you have to prepare your troops for war so were you prepared for war at that stage age with China I see the transgressions are not actually localized only Eastern ladakh we have areas of different perceptions right from Eastern ladakh to arunachal and these transaction congressions are happening from time to time in various places in Eastern ladakh and the central sector barahoti in Sikkim in arunachal so this is a quite a something that we always prepared to counter but as I said the various agreements which are in place categorically rule out the use of force or resorting to firing but you cannot only observe one paragraph of the agreement and violate all others so if you have violated all the others then I am free to fire so you cannot accuse me of firing when you have done all the violations there doesn't that is does that mean you will come with 5000 people and I will just keep sitting obviously I will fire and that is what", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-10", "text": "sitting obviously I will fire and that is what they were scared of and that is moment we opened a fire they realized that they made a mistake and this whole gamut of this border agreement has gone to a different level altogether and that is what imposed caution on them for the first time ever they were cautious that this tactics or this strategy of theirs of trying to overwhelm by Superior force will not work in the face of India Italian India retaliating or opening fire right for the benefit of our listeners and years one second Ajit I'm just going to come to you I'll just you know because there are many instances when we talk about it but you know as journalists you and I might understand but if there is a student for example or somebody sitting outside of India who may not be aware of the complexity of this just a small explainer um you know if you don't understand the uh boundary engagement that India has with China uh there's just a small explainer that in", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-11", "text": "China uh there's just a small explainer that in 1993 an agreement was signed by India and China between India and China that neither side will use or threaten to use Force against each other by any means no activities of either side shall overstep the line of control and in case Personnel of one side cross the line of actual control remember its line of actual control Lac as opposed to loc C which is on our western front now on Lac in case the Personnel of one side actually cross as Jen saw was explaining then like for example if China crosses or somebody from China crosses then the Indian side uh shall warn them caution them and say that you have crossed so once that caution happens but more relevant part about this agreement is that neither side shall open fire or hunt with guns and explosions within two kilometers of from the line of actual control now the line of actual control is also kind of not defined in many places so that's where all the trouble also occurs so it", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-12", "text": "that's where all the trouble also occurs so it brings me to the um initial question I had General Saab that there was this agreement and then there was this aggression and they were pushing us this was now you are the Army Chief what happens then this was precisely the agreement I was referring to the 1993 one where it specifically mentioned that there will be no unilateral change of the status quo you will not come with weapons you will not come with arms but if you have now coming with clubs studied with barbed wire what does that mean you violated the agreement it was the first time that this club with wires happened they have been doing that they've been earlier so as I said they have been continuously violating the agreement okay now if you're violated half the agreement that doesn't mean that we will not we'll just keep listening um the nature of the enemy has been similar persistent or was it altering we saw in the 2000s no they have that's long-term strategy", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-13", "text": "the 2000s no they have that's long-term strategy has always been the same to keep inching forward and keep probing us for any possible weakness and if there is a weakness okay then come and sit there and then always say that this is how it always was so therefore every small probe probing action has to be contested in that in that I think you were you were a question sir you said uh that the Chinese were violating the agreement by bringing in large number of troops armed and all so uh this uh prior to uh May 2020 aggression which they did and the story came out how big were the numbers mother how did they manage to bring in so many troops so close to our uh border we have heard there was an exercise the diverted troops from there but uh like uh how did we know that this is happening no see whenever patrolling is going on we always come to know that the patrols are there and are coming we just mentioned about young say the beginning of the", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-14", "text": "we just mentioned about young say the beginning of the talk so when they're assembling we do come to know that they are assembling so it's not that you are taken entirely by surprise but the fact is that we don't expect them to violate an agreement so it is a agreement that is is being violated time and again so that is the point to note that if you are violating the agreement then we reserve the right to take any action that we deem so this agreement was signed uh you know decades ago but how do you as an army Chief tell your men to defend a hot border with no weapons how do you how are you going to instill in your men and women now that confidence to there's a hot border you have an enemy which is coming at you how do you defend it so I will like to clarify when you say no weapons we carry weapons it is not that weapons are not carried but that is where our men have to exercise great restraint that in the", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-15", "text": "our men have to exercise great restraint that in the face of provocation not to fire because we are as gentlemen following the agreement but when the enemy when the pla was violating these agreements then we also told them that if they are violating then you are free to take whatever actions you want to take in your self-defense what is the weapon that you uh that is carried if you may ask and where is it carried is it carried on the on the body of the uh the soldier who's there when you go for a patrol you go totally armed and expecting the worst and a firearm yes a firearm you carry your rifles you carry your light machine guns you carry your ammunition you're ready to meet any eventuality it's not that you'd go of patrolling with just Dundas in your hand not that okay so there was somewhere it came that you know the Indian troops are named I'm sorry that is not a correct statement which came a report which came at that point every Patrol", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-16", "text": "came a report which came at that point every Patrol which goes goes ready to meet any eventually they're armed as Perth laid down scales and as per the patrol that they're going for and they were equipped also accordingly if their patrol us to cross some water obstacle they will keep carrying their expedience to cross that water obstacle that River they just don't go as if they're going for a picnic right so it's it's a little hard for us to uh to understand that uh that an Indian soldier is carrying a weapon he sees his unit Chief being killed and doesn't use his weapon that is why there was this there was this outrage that you know how why so although we did not fire we also resorted in a similar vein so you see though it was always a question of who will open fire first so since we felt that we had the measure of the pla troops over there we also counted them in the same way that they were sort of taking action against us", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-17", "text": "way that they were sort of taking action against us which was basically by the use of non-lethal that means not not actually firing although casualties did occur by other thing that you so if they were carrying sticks then we were also carrying sticks and Sir uh we were also we have after the first instance where they used the barbed wire clubs and all these things we have also now uh started using the such Stakes with the spikes and all so we would still like to maintain that we are 21st century Army to start going back to clubs and Barbed wires is going back to prehistoric times I think it is a very regressive way of going we would still like to maintain that we you know in Warfare also there are certain rules it is not that you just do whatever that you want to do right so we would still like to maintain a professional stance and therefore rather than resort to wielding clubs we rather open fire that is how Army fights correct by using the weapons at the", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-18", "text": "how Army fights correct by using the weapons at the disposal and not getting into fisticuffs is there any other parallel in the world where two armies or two neighbors have decided that we will use these clubs and monkey what is it called monkey web something it is called so that is precisely what you are saying are we Hooligans professional Army is that the level that pla has gone down to hooliganism and street fighting or their professional 21st century Army on one side they try to show their technological prowess on the other side they're coming with barbed wire clubs it is ridiculous did you laugh at them when they were wielding May mace and yes of course regressive there's no other vote for it yeah but gen sub uh 15 June 2020 you get information on at least we got information that Colonel Santosh Babu and his men died in action you might have got it a couple of hours before we did what went through your mind at that stage see uh any casualty of course", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-19", "text": "at that stage see uh any casualty of course hurts you your as the chief not and not only as the chief as a battalion Commander as a brigade Commander every man is is your is your man is he is your son or daughter so any uh such information or news that comes obviously you feel a little saddened by this kind but on the other hand you also feel that yes what they have done is in the line of duty and they have certainly given as good as they got and that is actually the fact whether the pla admits it or not whether the Chinese admit it or not they also give it back to the enemy and of course in any such Clash or battle or War casualties will happen on either side that's part of the game if I can say so hmm so but uh there was also that situation where we where we had to literally force them to give back the bodies and we had to give our from our side we had to give what what", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-20", "text": "our from our side we had to give what what happens there in that situation that that stage is there a negotiation which happens that returned the bodies of our men who have died and then we have to give how does that happen there sir of course you know once the Clash has happened and temperatures have cooled down both literally and in actual fact then the senior Council of course prevails you know the Clash is always In the Heat of the Moment and later on when the flag meetings were held between djmos no between and on the ground on the ground on the ground the flag meetings were held we of course facilitated the flag meeting through our official channels in the including the Diplomatic channels and on ground the flag meetings were held at the place where the clashes occurred and that is where then the or men came back were returned to us so we will interrupt with what the defense minister said so uh his speech in Lok Sabha is just running and some of the", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-21", "text": "Lok Sabha is just running and some of the pointers are that on December 9th in yangte area of tabang sector pla troops encroached upon and attempted to change the status quo the attempt by pla to encroachment was tackled by our troops in a determined manner our troops bravely stopped the pla from encroaching Upon Our territory and forced them to go back to their post the defense minister said in Lok Sabha that the matter has also been taken up with China through diplomatic channels as you were mentioning gents are that this happened earlier too raksha mantri then said that he would assure the house that our forces are committed to guard our borders and ready to thwart any attempt that will be made to challenge it in the face of few soldiers on both sides suffered injuries raksha mantri said that he'd like to tell the house that none of our soldiers died or suffered any Serious injury due to the timely intervention of Indian military commander", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-22", "text": "to the timely intervention of Indian military commander us pla soldiers have retreated to their own locations flag meeting is was held with the Chinese counterpart and the raksha mantri said that the Chinese side was refused all actions and told to maintain refused all actions and told to maintain peace at the border it's uh and it maybe it has has refused okay but maybe they're not accepting that they've done it okay maybe trying to imply that right so uh this uh what we have heard through sources is that uh is in that uh I think Ajit also will say there's that it's happened before before I mean earlier this year this is 2022 it's happened on a couple of occasions where the Chinese side has tried to come in this was probably a larger incident which is sorry come to light could you tell us whether it is similar to what happened in uh 2020 uh similar in Yang say yes it is in fact young says one area where the Chinese keep trying to come over", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-23", "text": "one area where the Chinese keep trying to come over across the river into the youngster sector and this is not only of 2020 they try to come every year and every year they make two three such attempts to come and they're rebuffed every time okay of course from their side also they must be having some pressure from their senior commanders that how is it that you come back every time crossover casualties or get more land is that no because it's a it's a country which is hungry for land all the time even though they're such a large country they are they're greedy to capture Landings yeah so that is why their commanders would be pressing their people also that at least go up to our stated claim line but we do not allow them to come even up to there and they have to cross a river to come to our side and that is where we block them and we are on a tactically advantageous position so it's it's well impossible for them to come but yet year after year", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-24", "text": "impossible for them to come but yet year after year they keep attending the same thing and year after year they suffer injuries and go back of course in the bargain we also suffer some injuries but they've always been at the receiving end and they make two three such attempts every year and the last one is normally before the onset of winters so and before the snow has come and then all such tactical actions would thereafter not be possible so we expect this every year and we were very well prepared to thought it it used to happen in the western sector too in sea urchin till uh till an operation happened and they were evicted out and they learned their lesson and said because we didn't move out from there what is it similar uh in you know what happened in sea urchin and what's happening in galwan and what's happening in yangte area I think to an extent because of the stand we have taken and because we have now made it very clear that this unilateral", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-25", "text": "we have now made it very clear that this unilateral changes will not be tolerated by us so by and by I think it will Dawn on them that there is no point in escalating the situation all the time and it will be better to move towards a permanent solution to this border problem rather than keep this friction alive and as a foreign minister I said as long as the Border question is resolved it cannot be business as usual right so I think over a period of time this realization will Dawn on them it is better to have a stable and peaceful border rather than continuing to have such small incidents every now and then which is you know it becomes a setback to our overall relations hmm do you think it's adorning I mean you've attended several meetings with them do you think that they are receptive uh they are it's an army which is receptive to change or it's not I would not say the Army receptive to change it has to be the political establishment which has to be", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-26", "text": "has to be the political establishment which has to be receptive to change and should realize that they really want peace and Tranquility in the region if they want China and India to re-emerge as the you know geopolitical and the economic Hub that we were in the 18th century in the 18th century it was China and India which contributed 80 percent of the world's GDP so if you want to regain that position in the future then it would be better if China and India are friends rather than having this competition and confrontation every now and then sir I would like to take you back to the galwan issue uh you said the Chinese had put up tents and we opposed that vehemently and uh so during galwan when we took action those tents have been now pushed back yes and we did it successfully the team led by Colonel Santosh Babu and his men they pushed back the Chinese from that position where they had pitched their attention it was not so clear-cut as it seems now", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-27", "text": "it was not so clear-cut as it seems now so there was a period when they tried to push them back they were still there and then as a result of the talks which happened thereafter in 10-15 rounds of talks took place and then in every round of talks we agreed to disengage from where we were and as a result of that disengagement now the status quo has been restored in all the locations in all the locations yeah so and can we say that uh the the status quo which the Chinese wanted to change unilaterally post 2020 from May 2020 we have gone back to the older positions uh after the several roundups which we have that's right so post these several rounds of talks the status go as of April 2020 has been restored okay Jill sir I'm going to pick a code of yours in an interview you had said uh army people are the last people who want to go to war it's always better to have the whole nation approach and have a good", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-28", "text": "to have the whole nation approach and have a good relationship with your neighbors a stable relationship with all your neighbors because if you have stable relations the country prospers and should that should be the aim that should be done at a political level diplomatic level but you need the Army if you want to ensure peace be prepared for war I'll take you back to that situation when you became Chief and uh when this thing happened when this action happened how do you prepare for war uh when the other side has already attacked you has already come were you prepared for warwaza was the Indian army prepared to go to war with China as a country as a nation and as a army we are always prepared for war it is not that we are not prepared at any point of time appreciation of likely threats is a continuous process when intelligence inputs are always there of who's mobilizing how they're mobilizing so the kind of mobilization which had happened on the Chinese side was not indicative of a war it", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-29", "text": "the Chinese side was not indicative of a war it was a mobilization for the small probing actions here and there oh that's very significant what you're saying for a country to go to war there are many more indications which would be there at the Diplomatic level at the economic level so such as you'll stock up on your oil reserves you will stock up on your food cater for any disruptions to that supply lines so these these kind of indications will be start coming from six months in advance eight months in advance okay was don't happen overnight right so today you're sitting quietly like this and at midnight today you're at War it's not that way see Russia in Ukraine the mobilization happened people kept saying that war will be there all will not be there they were partly is going on track two discussions with going on but after when everything failed that is when Russia decided to attack it's not the 24th February one fine day they went off yeah but you know we knew that", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-30", "text": "they went off yeah but you know we knew that something is happening but on China is there Intel available that's what it is we should not discount our uh forces or other agencies we are very good Intel we know what is happening and in a era of you know technology with satellites and all we very well know each and every move of this and as I said in the whole of nation approach it is not the Army alone all the organs of the state are rnaw is doing a wonderful job we know exactly what is happening so let's not be under this delusion that one fine day we're going to get surprised and be at War we will get adequate notice we will get adequate notice to mobilize we'll get adequate notice to go and occupy our defenses and be prepared in all respects you know this I can say that with utmost confidence to the entire nation that we will always be ready to face whatever is thrown at us so in 2020 one one question then you", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-31", "text": "at us so in 2020 one one question then you go in 2020 there was a lot of uh there were these propaganda videos which came out from China if you remember that you know these trucks going with thousands of thousands of people being mobilized of course they were takedowns by the Indian side which said fake videos here and then there were these that you know all are all those trucks which were moving they had mobile toilets with them whereas our forces don't have it so there was you know like a lot of propaganda War which happens uh during these kind of situations is India equipped to handle that kind of propaganda War which comes in for that actually again I would say at the military level we are very much capable of handling and because we know what is what is what on ground we know we can see them we know what their physical standards are in fact at the height of the crisis in eastern ladakh their troops over in that forward line had to be relieved", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-32", "text": "over in that forward line had to be relieved every 48 hours when ours are relieved after once you go you sit there so that that means I mean yeah one year means still next tell you next you go on leave or something so if you've gone up you will sit there for three four months whatever is your thing that is the hardiness of our troops their troops are to be relieved every 48 Hours 10 people would come up 10 people would go down that was their staying power uh staying power was much more as I said you know when our troops are very fine people Resolute their Hardy they come from a very good you know background and stock they have that nationalistic forward and they will do whatever is required did it get impacted uh Sir with uh what happened with uh Santosh Babu did that did that shake the troops uh morale no I don't think uh you know we in fact the Indian army specifically since we have been involved in active operations for a long time especially in", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-33", "text": "involved in active operations for a long time especially in jnk and in the Northeast we have been suffering casualties so it does every casualty as I said hurts whether casualty we take it in our stride we know that while doing a job something like this is going to happen in jnk also when ID blast take place you do lose 15-20 people at a time has happened in pulwama so you know we are used I will not say we are in your two that would be wrong way of putting it but we know that casualties do occur and when casualties occur it only makes us stronger that we will take retributive action yes we will take revenge for it and and that is the only way that a unit regains its moral by taking that Revenge right and so that that is the reason why you had uh the uh the people from Santosh babu's unit uh involved in the operations which we carried out in these areas absolutely because that is the only way", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-34", "text": "in these areas absolutely because that is the only way you get your moral back you know it's like when you're horse riding when you fall off a horse you get back on immediately you don't go and hide somewhere else so that is precisely the point best way to get your moral back is to get involved in operation and do a good job is talking about how their troops had to go back down after 48 Hours remember Ajit was time they are six feet tall Chinese soldiers do you remember that and sir we wanted to ask you also on this uh we had discussed in ma'am had discussed now this galwan happened sir the whole world people see like Australia Mongolia every country whosoever is Chinese neighbor they don't fight with them the Chinese create a Hawa and they come they threaten they say we have got this this missile that missile do you think this fight in galwan The Clash in galwan the uh the way our troops gave them a bloody nose uh did", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-35", "text": "troops gave them a bloody nose uh did this demolish the image of seven feet tall Chinese soldiers in the minds of ass troops as well as internationally I think not only of the pla itself but I feel it diminished the stature of China as a country in the global eyes because after this Clash occurred and we showed that it is possible to stand up to China who tries to bully its smallest Neighbors once we did that I think from Canada to Lithuania to Europe to Philippines everyone actually you know got that feeling that yes if you're fighting for what is correct if you have a principal stand it is possible to they could stand even against China and we don't have to always be cowed down by the might that they try to project I think the asean was also looking in wonderment at that stage quite right uh you know as to how we react because of Chinese aggression in the South China Sea in you know all that that was happening so uh I think there", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-36", "text": "that that was happening so uh I think there was a lot of focus on the Indian army at that stage Indian army and India is a country we showed India as a country showed to the world yeah that it is possible to take on that neighborhood bully as is the case everywhere whether it is a school bully or a neighborhood bully you have to stand up to him sometime or the other right we showed it can be done but so you feel uh this happened but it has happened a bit late we have given them a long rope we allowed them to for many years we allowed them to encroach inch by inch they yes it may be that happened over a period of time with some things always come to a head sometime or the other so it came to a head at that stage in in 2020. uh Jensen in uh in your first press conference I'm again quoting uh you had written that the Army is rebalancing its deployment and strategy along the western Northern and", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-37", "text": "its deployment and strategy along the western Northern and Northeastern borders to deal with any kind of threat beat from Pakistan or China earlier the focus was on the Western Front we now feel that both the Western and the northern France are equally important and that's why we are rebalancing quite prophetic I would say that when you talked about rebalancing because for a long time one had kept hearing about the two front wall two front wall and that actually almost happened in 2020. uh so to take from what uh Ajit was saying was it something that we did too late should it have been done earlier no see uh these analysis of likely threats and how they're going to manifest is once again a continuous process it's not that you suddenly one day do that based on various inputs that we keep getting based on new acquisitions which are made by the enemy we also get input some new strategies that he is adopting So based on all such things we keep appreciating the likely threats and again those", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-38", "text": "we keep appreciating the likely threats and again those threats what remedial measures or counter measures we should take and it is in that light that we felt that the threat from our Northern borders is increasing vis-a-vis that offer Western borders and therefore we need to rebalance some forces we've always had plans in place where some troops could go from the Western Front to the Eastern front or vice versa it is a question of where they should be initially deployed it should be they be initially deployed more to the west and go to the east by East I mean East and North as a contingency or there should be against the northern adversary first and go to the West as a continuance so it is that is what is the rebalancing that rather than being more West oriented they become now more North oriented so that's that does not mean that they cannot come back to the West yeah because that's a continuous threat continuously it's not we cannot keep evaluating but suppose tomorrow something changes on", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-39", "text": "cannot keep evaluating but suppose tomorrow something changes on the Western Front we might revert to how what it was earlier but you can also be sure that now see there's also this thing that we never talk about China as dushman Mulk but it has come to a situation where if this continuous uh engagement uh with weapons this continuous injuries which are happening it is a dushman Mulk so if you have dushman on both Northern and Northern western eastern fronts they can collaborate and it can become a single front wall like maybe geographically different but actually one dushman if they are collaborating like this so in the analysis of threat we will always have to prioritize and I think that kind of Pride right prioritization we do everywhere in our personal lives also we prioritize so similarly we have to prioritize which is the more important threat which is the more dangerous one and and of course we focus more on that and less on the other and now now nobody has any doubts that China is", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-40", "text": "now now nobody has any doubts that China is the Enemy Number One I think that's been the case not now but for many years I think our Former Defense Minister had also said that George Fernandez more than two decades ago that China is the enemy so they're nothing new it is just that we have become more cognizant of that fact and we are more open to talking about it rather than keeping it in the shadows and not mentioning it um right now even as uh rakshamantri speaking in Parliament before that he was briefed by the service Chiefs um tell us this is I'm talking about December 9th attack which has happened and he was briefed by the service Chiefs and we've also heard that they've come with they had come with drones um not just clubs but they had come with drones to shoot the entire yeah to film the entire thing maybe not weaponized drones but maybe their these drones were there to see forward how many troops we have or I don't", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-41", "text": "forward how many troops we have or I don't know I mean there could be cameras operated from those drones you would have briefed uh similarly the raksha mantri what happens in these kind of briefings uh give us a sense of how this takes place like when when you inform the civilian leadership now obviously we have to give a very fair and clear picture us of what has happened and we try not to hide any facts and if something has happened like in galwan we suffered casualties we were straight away we said yes we have suffered the casualties we did not try to hide it like the Chinese have done and they refused to declare it now they've declared four now they agreed to a fifth one but the numbers are much higher so we give a very clear picture we give an assessment of what has happened an assessment of what is likely to happen in the future the next and in the future I mean in the short term and in the long term and based", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-42", "text": "the short term and in the long term and based on that assessment what we need to do so that is how it generally transpires and each service gives their own view on and said on that incident of course in an incident like young say which is more Land Based and very very localized they probably would not be so much inputs from say the Navy hmm but obviously their inputs will also be taken into consideration and so you were talking about assessment so in your assessment when you gave it to the government a post girl one what was the assessment of Chinese casualties by the Indian army sir well I have time and again said that I will not like to get into a numbers game so the number of casualties is not important what is important is the fact that they suffered casualties because all along over the last two decades not only with India but with Bhutan in with Nepal they are also encroaching in the South China Sea they've been encroaching they have a free pass free pass and", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-43", "text": "encroaching they have a free pass free pass and never has anybody challenged them and they never ever suffered casualties for them it was a very low cost no cost option without doing anything and without suffering any any casualties they were gaining whatever you know the aim is by being achieved this is the first time that they got the jatka and that is what has forced them to reassess this way of doing things so that is what is important the numbers are not important whether it is one or 40. so sir it doesn't matter and it's a jatka which has happened without an International Coalition or anything against them how do you feel you are the Army Chief how do you feel when some Bollywood actors try to say hi from galwan how how do you react to them that's no I think we should just brush it off and not take too much or not give it you know more you comment or give Credence to it the more it remains in the Limelight I've always been", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-44", "text": "more it remains in the Limelight I've always been of the view that such people are free to talk and comment and all these comments the more you ignore them the sooner they die a natural death rather than reacting you react it remains in the Limelight so just let it pass that is one way of looking at itself but there is also narrative building that happens and I will go into the balakot incident I mean balakot by and large was probably an effos operation so but still I mean you you would be aware that what had happened was that you know we had struck but Pakistan somehow got the lead over us as far as the narrative is concerned they took troops uh they sorry they took diplomats and they took people around and they said you know that that there was nothing that the thing is we didn't have pictures we didn't have images and then the narrative was that and then people in our own country started believing that narrative right because then it's not just", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-45", "text": "that narrative right because then it's not just ordinary civilians who were listening in or looking at the social media there were people from reporters and all who were culling stories from that uh from that so sometimes ignoring doesn't work right no in in this case it was just one person one individual so that's a different matters but on the larger scale it is also important to win the information War right and that has become very important in these times of you know interconnectivity in social media it is not enough to win the war on the ground as you mentioned you have to win the perception World perception also and for that I think there's a hollow whole new ball game and which has to be done at a much higher and at a national level it is not something which will be done at the ground level that a battalion Commander is saying something so it will have to be pieced together and that narrative built and add to show that we have actually won the war on ground so both", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-46", "text": "we have actually won the war on ground so both both these things have become very important as journalists let me tell you because uh you know Decades of EX of this experience which Ajit and I both together if we would have is the same thing that you we get information from and not just this incident but any other incident also you get the information and then the forge wants to run with it the civilian Administration doesn't want to run for and I am talking about years ago also okay now the American president is coming so even if we would have won something on the ground don't report on it don't say it or we would have lost on the ground maybe we've lost a few men on a you know in a terror incident a forges lost but so don't run with it because you have a visit or you have an international event which is happening which India is hosting or whatever or like in the recent Pastor that don't report on this matter because we have the eighth round of talks", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-47", "text": "matter because we have the eighth round of talks happening don't report on this matter because ninth round of talks is happening so you know in when you're doing this uh cyborg it has to be coordinated at the highest level because only the highest level do you know all the other ramifications because a statement made at a lower level should not Boomerang on you or rebound with us say a different country or a different you know Ally so therefore it has to be coordinated at a higher level and perhaps then we have to accept that they know more than what we do and therefore the decision is the correct one you mean the in the sense of political establishment or or the civilian whatever yes the not not the the bureaucracy I won't say the political establishment the government of the day it is a government we we are we are responsible to Parliament right not to a particular party or in various Parliament decides that is the government of the day so government of the day are more", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-48", "text": "of the day so government of the day are more seized you know they are getting inputs from so many places they're getting inputs from so many missions abroad they're getting inputs from the rnaw they know what is maybe there is some trade deal which has been struck in you know a statement May jeopardize that deal so there are so many facets which you and me may not be aware of okay after all we are bound in our own domains right there is somebody who knows all a larger larger picture so right we have to accept that make that they know what is best for the country right you know when I'm going to go back to Bala code because uh you know uh one viewers which I had told you was that when you the narrative Pakistan got ahead of us in that respect and uh there was this thing that have we probably not struck a Target which was significant or you know what has happened uh there was one view which I was told that uh at that time maybe it was", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-49", "text": "was told that uh at that time maybe it was prudent not to because um you're dealing with a country which has uh which is a rogue nation and they have nuclear weapons and they could they could just you know escalate the whole situation so maybe it was significant to hit the enemy but not provoke the Enemy by encouraging a next action uh from them could that be true no we hit them and they did react they did come the next day and that is when that we lost one aircraft also when Commander abhinandan was also shot down so it's not that our action did not provoke a reaction but once again we have to see the larger picture the larger picture is that we have demonstrated our will to strike again whether we struck any number of casualties the number of terrorists who were killed is not important the fact is that we have said that if you do something to us we will do something to you and that will be proportionate or even more than what you have done", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-50", "text": "proportionate or even more than what you have done to us exactly that is the message that is gone across and which is the important message yeah the disproportionate is also possible also possible yeah that is the mess as I say let's not get into the numbers that is not even the larger picture and the larger message that has gone that is messaging strategic signaling that you know don't don't try these stunts because you will suffer more than we do so um I'm going to get to Pakistan now oh you want to still stay I have with God I I want to still stick with this uh so you talked about giving jhatka to China in galwan that was a big jatka for them but you uh this was June in uh 2020 August last week you gave a bigger jhatkar to them in also please tell us about that sir what did we do yes so actually this when I said that we you know took counter measures this is part of those counter measures and as I was", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-51", "text": "is part of those counter measures and as I was saying that you know it's always the Chinese have been coming and probing here and there and we have always been reactive this is the first time that we should we can also do the same thing competitive measures proactive measures and we can put them on the back foot and again that you know they were taken by surprise now everybody asks us that you had taken away surprise where they're not taken by surprise and how they were taken by surprise in spite of being face to face that means we were that much better that under their nose we could do that and take an offensive action and go and sit on places where we fought such bloody battles in 1962. yeah we have back there that humiliation of 1962. yes and we were right sitting there and looking down on their garage and at moldo and they were really shaken up they never expected they were always thought we were defensive Force they never thought we can go on the", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-52", "text": "defensive Force they never thought we can go on the offensive also and that is what is now prompted all that infrastructure development that they're doing now they are scared of us that we will come into their territory we have taken right in the 60s we have taken offensive action 69 was it no that was again on the borderline for the first time they are thinking and rightly so that they should be worried that we will go in and not that only they will come or it will battle or only be at the border can you can you tell us sir what actually happened what what all did we do in that uh that is the uh Southern Bank of uh it is little more than the Southern Bank see they had initially come on the Northern Bank sir then we also appreciated that they will try and come on the heights of the Southern Bank which they did and then it was a race between the two of us that who will get to those Heights faster so at some places we reached for", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-53", "text": "Heights faster so at some places we reached for some places they reached us so it was sort of 50 50. but having appreciated that we said come let us go further south of the spangur Gap and take these kailash ranges and these two passes of rich in line resangler which they did not expect they thought we will keep it localized to the North and South Bank but then we when we went further south and as I said they did not expect that we will take this kind of a offensive action and so this is angla uh uh why were they not occupied at that moment uh are they on our side of LSC or the lse runs along these passes okay and therefore both sides do not occupy them okay by Mutual that agreement that you will remain on your side and we will remain on our side and Lac itself is not manned and we occupied these unlike the RC with Pakistan where we sit eyeball to eyeball and we occupied both these past we occupied is there any", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-54", "text": "we occupied both these past we occupied is there any rethink to that agreement uh no not as of now I think it is to death in good stead these incidents which have happened as I mentioned will I think reinforce the point that a stable border is you know conducive to peace and peace obviously leads to growth and development so by and by I think we will be a realization that a stable border and or resolving this border question is to our mutual benefit right um for our listeners and viewers we are running this episode on the week of Vijay Devas uh those who might not be in India you may not be aware of the significance of the day 16th December 1971 is observed as Vijay Divas uh the day India helped in the liberation of Bangladesh a decisive War uh when Pakistani troops surrender to the Indian army um gensap I want to ask you about that 1971 uh surrender there's this when you were Chief uh when we visited you uh Ajit", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-55", "text": "you were Chief uh when we visited you uh Ajit is always mentions that that there's that painting uh behind yeah you know on that wall where you used to meet right uh all the all the foreign Chiefs including the Saudis bangladeshis all the Chiefs who came to meet in in that office uh in that Lounge Chiefs Lounge uh the picture would come with the surrender ceremony in the backdrop and uh every time the pakistanis would react very that that painting behind you how significant was that to you sir as as you know somebody who joined as a Young Man uh how significant is Vijay Devas no it is definitely the finest moment in the annuals of History not only of ours but never before as any army got such a resounding victory in such a small space of time so it was our as I said in our history of the Indian army and of the country it is a it has a finest moment and that picture captures it all when the Pakistan Army general nyazi", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-56", "text": "picture captures it all when the Pakistan Army general nyazi surrendered to jagjit Singh Arora and you did mention you know that little propaganda in IW has to be done so that is a way of doing it having that photo in the background with all the time we are telling everyone see this is what we are and this is what we can do without saying anything I said did any of the visiting Chiefs ask you that what is this who are these gentlemen no we used to tell them who they are okay in the Chiefs Lounge but that similar painting is there in the Army battle honors Miss yeah and when we host visiting delegations we exp and not only this painting the paintings of other battles are also there we take them around and explain every battle in each battle the pakistanis have been given a bloody nose so this is the Pakistan uh Army chief he has said that the 1971 defeat that you mentioned that it was a political defeat and not a military uh defeat", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-57", "text": "a political defeat and not a military uh defeat that the surrender was not something which happened because the Army it was the the politicians who decided it what do you have to say to that well it you cannot say that is not a military defeat after all 93 000 prisoners of War they're there and that is the magnitude of the surrender which did not which has not happened since World War II when the Germans surrendered that Stalingrad and that is the magnitude so you can cannot wish away history or try to rewrite it because the facts and figures are well known for so many years the records are there we have the names of all 93 000 people who are with us so how can you say that they did not surrender they don't believe in the names uh gentlem you know that even in kargil they didn't believe and it took them a long time to accept you know that uh that they didn't even take back the bodies and they didn't accept that their people", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-58", "text": "the bodies and they didn't accept that their people had died would you how do you that's a mercenary Army on the other side what are the what is the difference between the two armies between the Chinese Army you know both now so tell us the difference I think that you know we should not discount any opposition if you underestimate your opposition or try to and play them down then you likely to get surprised so we should always look at them as a professional Army and at the unit level nobody likes to lose so at the unit level they will also try their best to win so we should not you know go in with over confidence that we are you know refried for anything like that but the whole team has to get welded together and as the Army you have to know that you have the backing of your country you have the backing of your government the the will of the people and so on I think that is where we are at a great advantage I keep saying whole of nation approach", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-59", "text": "great advantage I keep saying whole of nation approach whole of nation approach that is precisely the point we have as a nation the political establishment all the other Ministries and the bureaucrats the military establishment or population our population which has so much regard and appreciation for our armed forces that is our greatest strength they always rise up to the occasion whenever they need demand and they it is their love and affection which keeps us going that when we are at the border we know that our you know citizens are with us and that is what makes us strong I think I don't know how true that is on the other side so you can only speak for myself so you you say that they're not a Riff Raff I agree that they're not a riffraff force of course not they've kept us on the run in Kashmir for so many years uh they're not a refractor it's the only army in the world which has like that defy Pakistan they have terrorists as the", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-60", "text": "like that defy Pakistan they have terrorists as the front line of defense how do you deal with that that is a strategy how do you respect an army which which keeps a terror front in going no that is a strategy that they've adopted and we have made it very clear that terrorism in all its forms is unacceptable to us and that has been our stand for many years in so many places including Global fora in the U.N there is nothing like a good terrorist and a bad terrorist and I think a foreign minister very recently also said the same thing so we have always been Against Terror and terrorism if a nation chooses to adopt that path then it is their funeral because those terrorists will come back to bite them only as is happening now so they keep laughing about uh our army in their social media and their television networks and all they we used our army used to be a something that they would laugh about that is they are now you know grappling with the thing that", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-61", "text": "are now you know grappling with the thing that the people that they used to eulogize they they used to say oh my wonderful like you know they had these big mansions uh when they when they retired now they are talking about the corruption in the Pakistan Army that they're saying Pakistan that is what they say that that division now they turn around and say that look at that Army where one Chief goes and the other one comes and it is a very you know polite and modest Way's handshake was being on their television they were saying their journalists were saying so like when you see all those things are how do you feel sir no see we have done a job to the best of her ability we did it because we are proud of what we were doing we did not do it for a personal fame or Fortune and at the end of the day if if I have the respect of all of y'all and of the country what more can you ask for and after all that 200", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-62", "text": "more can you ask for and after all that 200 million you can't take it up with you so what will you do with it right so but when you hang up your boots what do you feel at that stage no I think it was just a job well done if I can give myself a pat on the back that uh but you know this question does get asked often that how did you feel and things like that but we know that we have to retire this did you join us there became Chief I knew the 30th April is my last day so this is not a surprise or anything and any uh a new you know mentally prepared for that right so he used to say a Thai 28th Chief will retire after 28 months so I knew precisely how much time I win the jail and I think that also motivates you to achieve more in that limited time that you have right so you know you know that the clock is ticking right from the word go and you try to do your", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-63", "text": "from the word go and you try to do your best uh there's a war currently on uh there's the Ukraine conflict which is on what are the military lessons that we can learn from that uh War for example uh you know there's this whole thing that tank battles it's probably a thing of the past now I'm feeling odd even saying that because this is the month of the longevala anniversary but still I need to say that is it something of the past are these battlefields changing now will there any lessons to be learned from this ongoing conflict and some of them in fact had even expounded before I'd retired the first and foremost before we get down to the lower level is that Wars will happen okay and there is a certain school of thought that Wars are of the past and you know big Nations will not fight or nuclear countries will not fight and so on and so forth and therefore diminishing sort of importance to defense preparedness and reducing budgets with that has been proven", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-64", "text": "and reducing budgets with that has been proven totally wrong and this has to be said uh Joseph even in 62 if you remember yes so then also and also that the Prime Minister had thought that it always will not happen and therefore the statement which I made that to ensure the peace be prepared for war that is the context of that statement that if you have to ensure peace you have to prepare for war and preparation of war is a very long drawn and continuous process takes decades to be always prepared a new equipment which has to be inducted for example the procurement process its manufacture its induction into the Armed Forces you're getting to and deploy it and you know utilize it where it's not doesn't happen overnight so it is a continuous process to be prepared for war so that is the first and foremost lesson that Wars will happen and you have to be prepared for it and if you don't invest in your defense capabilities then you will have to pay a very big price later on like", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-65", "text": "have to pay a very big price later on like the Europeans are now spending spending so they are spending and not only that they see Ukraine they ignored their defense services now the cost that they will spend on reconstructing their country will be 100 times more than what they would have had they actually defense of the nation have spent adequately on the defense of the nation to start with right so that is I think the much larger picture but coming down to the question that you had asked you know the character of War there are two aspects there is a nature of war and character of War and the nature of war is obviously death and destruction you know in achieving that aim with the character of or how you go about doing that changes from time to time whether it was host Cavalry whether it was armor whether it is Machine Gun if there's air power the method the character keeps changing and evolving and the side which evolves better and faster will win so now in the context of Ukraine and", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-66", "text": "will win so now in the context of Ukraine and with the large armor battles will still be relevant in the era where there is a proliferation of drones and armed drones with cameras which can pick up each and every yeah each and every person let alone a tank an individual can also be targeted how will the character of War change how will your tactics change and how will you deal with this new threat so that is an again an ongoing process which we will keep having to and there will always be you know in the last century the battle was the tank versus the anti-tank weapon in this Century it will be drawn versus counter drone that will be the technological race somebody will develop a drone you will develop a country but you can't get rid of the tanks right because that also could happen to to keep territory a drone can't keep territory right but the tank will also have to evolve evolve okay and the tactics of employment of the hour will all serve to be evolved", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-67", "text": "employment of the hour will all serve to be evolved perhaps the days of this Mass employment of armor may not be there okay that is the traditional way that you know you will entire Armored Division advances in one goes with 100 tanks visible huh if 100 tanks are visible with 100 drones then obviously you will suffer more casual so maybe the methodology of employment will also undergo a change and that is where you know our tactics and strategies will have to Ponder on and analyze each of these battles and see how we need to under undertake this even our weapon system uh gensa because many are saying that our weapon systems are Soviet sourced so uh now we're seeing what's happening in the conflict I'm not taking sides or I'm not making a comment on that and I don't expect you also to make a comment on it but still I think uh there is a there is a thinking that uh our sourcing needs to be maybe more varied and our training will have to change", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-68", "text": "maybe more varied and our training will have to change our Electronics everything is Soviet sourced or Russian sourced what happens then no the that was a compulsion of the past that you know we were a young country we did not have our own strong industrial base so we had to import weapons and the way the you know the nations were aligned at that point of time most of our equipment was coming from Russia yeah I will not say that we need to diversify our sources and the make in India initiative Atman Bharat initiative is a very good thing that has been done so that we start making our own weapons and equipment yeah and we reduce our dependence on Imports to the extent possible why why I say to the extent possible because no country makes hundred percent of the things themselves right even if Russia is making a helicopter hundred percent of the components is not in Russia is the t40 component so that also comes from abroad the thing is ever 100 your own but this supply chain issues which have", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-69", "text": "100 your own but this supply chain issues which have happened after covet that has right it has actually been a catalyst yeah Supply chains here we can have a portion of it external but the bulk of it should be within our country and if that happens then most of our equipment will be of Indian origin right and as far as the Army is concerned as it is most of our things we are making ourselves when our tanks we are making the bmps we are making the canine vajra the self propelled gun we are making so most of the it's more for the Air Force and the Navy especially for the Air Force whether main thing the aircraft was coming from abroad but now that is also going to undergo a change my one point was left from the China episode is going to labor on the China thing and I want to also come to the agnivir and the landscape sir you are the uh I guess you are the first and only Chief who stepped on the rich and Lara", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-70", "text": "only Chief who stepped on the rich and Lara zangla uh pass in that area so uh what is the status there sir and when uh you uh you're saying that we also decided to go offense on the offensive when you discuss this strategy with the top political leadership so because this was a big change and uh there was also a change that you allowed the troops to use firearms in case of provocation by the Chinese so how how was the political reaction to this suggestion by you and how how did it happen how did you uh go ahead with it sir this situation was continuously on and unfolding and we were having regular meetings on this subject including what all actions we can take counter measures we can take so it's not that it suddenly happened overnight that we decide to do something and we were prepared and we knew that if we do something then as in Bala code we have to be prepared for the reaction to that and therefore it was a very deliberate process", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-71", "text": "that and therefore it was a very deliberate process and that is why we waited till August it is not we could have gone up the next day also but we waited so that we were prepared all the preparations were in place to cater for any possible escalation and of course if the troops are at and it is my duty to go and visit them and they look forward to that and then that is what I said that you know our troops are very Hardy but you have to go and meet them on the spot see how they are And when they see the chief coming where they are and they know that their officers us down the chain when they know that you are willing to be there where they are willing to share in their dangers are cognizant of the terrain and the weather conditions and the living conditions living conditions then they are that much more strengthened okay they don't think that you're you know commanding from a air-conditioned office in Delhi they know that you're willing to", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-72", "text": "office in Delhi they know that you're willing to come and take the risk and share the risks with them so that is what boosts their morale and Sir like in this area like uh post uh 2020 sir uh I've been very fortunate uh you had a big role to play in it to visit the area multiple times or like uh I was people used to taunt me that ladakh is your second home I have seen a lot of uh have habitat coming up roads coming up and people say uh like the work of next 10 years has been done in 12 monthly so uh what all did you do there sir no we were always in the process of improving our infrastructure in all the Border areas not only in ladakh but even in arunachal so it's a continuous process of course this was a catalyst and what would have been A Five-Year Plan was done in one year but it's not that it was not there on the cards we we knew that a road has to come and the Strategic", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-73", "text": "that a road has to come and the Strategic reasons why you need infrastructure to keep a border safe so could you just explain that to us also no see if you need the keeper border safe you have to deploy troops on or near the border if you have to deploy troops they have to be housed so you need barracks and shelters but you cannot build a shelter unless you have a road going there or you cannot maintain them unless there's a road going there so first you'll have to make a road then you have to put the infrastructure in place then you have to Garrison how's the men there then the road has to be good enough so that you can maintain them all the year round that is also important it looks high in those Heights so that is where this complete gamut of infrastructure development airstrips also players trips suppose it's a place which is going to be cut off in Winter then you should be able to land your aircraft there or at least resupply them by air", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-74", "text": "aircraft there or at least resupply them by air which is happening in many places even now in the Eastern sector so that is how infrastructure development is very important um and also equipment which which can you know which is sustainable in those Heights so the equipment for example the K-9 vajra the self propelled gun was actually meant for deserts you know not meant for high altitude but we said let's try it out so we sent a few of those guns there and they worked out very well even though firing but then we realized that to make them all weather capability including Winters certain number of cold weather modifications would have to be done so then we got in touch with the manufacturers lnt they sent their Engineers there they saw what is required and now we have deployed guns which were meant and bought for desserts in desert Warfare for 40 degrees plus temperature are now deployed in 40 minus so yeah those modifications yeah so that's why it needs to be dynamic dynamic as the situation", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-75", "text": "why it needs to be dynamic dynamic as the situation develops uh just a little bit of your personal life your your your son of an Air Force person why did you join the forces what is it that motivated you why uh why the army and what role did your father play in choosing that actually you know although my father was in the Army Air Force he was originally an army credit I see he was in the IMA but broke his knee while playing football and then he was withdrawn on medical grounds and then he finished his graduation and joined the Air Force but in heart of hearts he always wanted me to go to Army only okay so in a way he was happy and I would have liked to joined the Air Force though since my father was an Air Force but because my eyesight Air Force was out um so I by default landed up in the Army I wonder whether the force knows this right so but of course he was very happy that I joined the army and of course you don't", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-76", "text": "I joined the army and of course you don't know when you join that you're going to rise to what level but definitely is very proud of me General rawat passed away there was such a outpouring of grief uh because he was such a popular man could you tell me a little bit about your interaction with General rawat is that of course was a very big shock to us especially since we had on Seventh itself been together or the curtain razor for the panics exercise which was to start in Una shortly thereafter and that is the last time I met him my last time seventh in fact we did that thing along with the honorable RRM and he went on 8 to Wellington I went to Mao and of course yeah that's where I got the news of Christ having occurred so it was quite a big shock to me and in the three years proceeding to that we had been really very close yeah though I must also say that till he came to Eastern command as the mggs in", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-77", "text": "he came to Eastern command as the mggs in 12 or 13. I'd never met him before okay uh me is so big that somehow a parts that never crossed but after he came to Eastern command as the major general general staff at that time I was also a Major General in nagaland and then he came as our core commander in Three core then of course our interaction was much more than his Chief and vice Chief and then of course as Chief and CDL CDs then we were actually more or less together yes after that and especially when he was the core commander and I was under him is to have a lot of Heart to Heart talks and used to tell me is at that time neither did he think he'll become Chief neither did I ever think that I'll beat taking over from him but we used to just talk about what is good and bad for the Army and how you know things can be done in a better manner and then a lot of these things are you know views were quite common", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-78", "text": "of these things are you know views were quite common in it just yeah you know fate and destiny that he became Chief and he could Implement those points and once he went on to become the CDs and I became I could follow up on those points because we were of the same mind and wish to discuss that sitting in dimapur but those who saw you from the outside and him he seemed a very flamboyant kind of a you know achieve and you were one of those quite a quiet mild-mannered persons who wouldn't talk much but apparently you you you had a good uh yes so that's the first question methods might have been different but what we wanted to do was almost the same right sir yeah very different ways of doing the same thing but I'll use uh generally you know gelled on a number of things including you know the redeployment rebalancing you know not from you know strategic level to HR issues where of the same view and I would say 90 of the things okay of", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-79", "text": "and I would say 90 of the things okay of course there always will be differences I I'm coming to the uh agnivir uh scheme uh you would have gone through the entire thing uh there's also this talk that you know uh the Himachal elections which have just concluded uh there are many who feel that maybe uh the BJP lost because uh people in Himachal Pradesh did not uh did not agree with the scheme they felt that it was not right because you know you they you know lacks of uh youth you can see when you're driving you can see hundreds of thousands of people exercising wanting to get into the forge there's that whole thing that Himachal Pradesh has and they don't understand the concept that Charles that they the youth will come back home uh of course I don't want you to talk about the politics of it but just explain to us that how where did that communication fail because at that time you also spoke about it quite a lot you try to convince", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-80", "text": "about it quite a lot you try to convince people that that's not the case but there's this still that little confusion in the minds of people see uh like I will not like to comment on the outcome of the elections what could have or could not yeah but it's just come up all over again that's why huh so that's not a thing but as far as HR policies are concerned HR policies always undergo changes now in the mid 70s the color service used to be only seven years with the seven year Reserve liability and there was nothing like pension not not many people know that but that was changed it was changed to 15 years to make it mentionable with a two-year resolvability so if you can increase it you can decrease it no HR policies will also be dynamic to say that you can't change a HR policy is not correct now we are trying out this scheme give it a chance how do you know it will not work when the age was increased or the color service was", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-81", "text": "when the age was increased or the color service was increased from 7 to 15 years there was a U.N cry that oh will be a old army how can you have such no we need youngsters in the Army exactly our opposite argument was given at that point of time now when you're trying for a young Army everybody saying why so these things are always you know it's from time to time we must give it a chance may make may be a very good thing it may have you know and and no policy will be foolproof whenever you try something there bound to be some negative troubles and that would be tinkered away they will be tinkered with that will be those changes will be brought into but the first four years I don't anticipate there being any requirement of change after that when the first batch of people start coming out then we'll know exactly what more needs to be done and as in when requirement of change is there I'm sure whoever is in the chair at that point", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-82", "text": "sure whoever is in the chair at that point of time the service Chiefs will approach the raksha mantri and the government that this is good this is not good this needs to be strengthened here we need changes and those changes will keep happening is the training period the short training period something that you think is all right because you've gone through a rigorous training uh module uh is that short training enough for again there are techno technical arms and non-technical arms so definitely our technical arms little bit more training will be required but when I've been speaking to Foreign Service Chiefs during my visits abroad and when they have also come almost all of them have a training period between six and eight months so it is not that it's going to be a very short training they have also the same then you keep learning on the job it's not that you train and that's it when you join your units you keep training there also so training is a continuous process okay because uh there some people have raised the question", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-83", "text": "okay because uh there some people have raised the question that the agnivirs who are going to join the service are they just Cannon for the especially you know with regard to China are they just going to be sent to China and as Canon photo not China sent to the Chinese border to the Embassy not uh not that and in fact we were talking about the 71 War prior to the 71 War whoever was under training was sent to the unit irrespective of how much training he had done somebody had done three months training somebody had done six months training officers were commissioned from the Ima in October itself sure yeah Emergency Services no no the normal the regular courses were also cut down okay everyone was respect off to the units with whatever training they had and within two months they were cohesive unit they're totally integrated and within three months they were in battle and delivered a victory so why are people saying that these people will not be a cohesive part of our units will the units accept them so because they", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-84", "text": "our units will the units accept them so because they would have gone through a more rigorous training and these are blokes who've just done a few months no will they will they be you know the in pecking order will they come lower how does that every year doesn't a unit get new recruits every year a unit gets new people from the training center 10 15 of them in this year also they will get 10 15. Leo to those people some will stay and some will go out every year every unit is getting new people at bottom of the ladder right and in one unit it will be four five eight people eight people out of 800 is no big deal they will get assimilated after two days you don't even know who's who when we we had a time when crpf officers used to come for two years attachment to the Indian army and when there is to come this to where the badges of rank and all of that unit and after a month or so you didn't know who's who they are not", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-85", "text": "so you didn't know who's who they are not lesser people they're not lesser or that he's that crpf Japan attachment and he is the regular fellow and he's to deliver as good as anyone else right he never thought I'm here only for two years or we did not think yes all up to you how you make use of the resource at your disposal and this is I don't think it's going to be the culture of the foreign there will be no impact on the efficiency of a unit when you took over as Army Chiefs I was the person I was the first person standing in front of you you are from Maharashtra or this is natural no I think it's natural because you know you've been commissioned to the sick light infantry you've spent better part of your life with them roads when we walked in was a sick person I said no it's just second nature when you join the unit that just goes to reinforce that agnivir point that when you join a unit you become one", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-86", "text": "point that when you join a unit you become one with that unit whether you're from place a or place B doesn't matter your unit is your life your unit is your family and you will do anything for them so that is how it translates and that is what the Army strength is but we are one thank you sir very much thank you so much for speaking to us and giving us a kind of an uh insight into what is what happened uh in 2020 and putting what is happening now into perspective we are most honored that you spoke with us thank you it was pleasure interacting with both of you all and I always have considered you always not only my good friends but good friends of the Indian army and I've always reported in a very objective manner on whatever we have done thank you thank you sir thank you for listening or watching this episode of a i podcast with Smitha prakash do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste foreign", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "01add9ab3ff0-87", "text": "Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste foreign [Music]", "source": "rfcoa8tXNug"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-0", "text": "for many many years across the decades people have relegated mental health to the background saying that you know for a lot of people mental health is not always the priority and we don't realize that the prevalence rates are pretty high women are expected to be these superheroes you know who have these superpowers who are going to be doing these multiple things at at the same time we feel judged we feel that uh people will start looking at us differently we feel that people around us will just not understand what is happening with us if we will go and share with them that this is our concern they would ridicule us they would laugh at us they will be sarcasm coming at us so we try to contain it within our own self if it's a problem it's stressing you out it's troubling you it's giving you sleepless nights it's preoccupying your thought process it's impacting your functioning please go and talk to someone it is a problem regardless of you know whether it seems like", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-1", "text": "problem regardless of you know whether it seems like a problem to someone around you or not start switching off your phones when you are at home we feel that the whole world is going to collapse and crash you know a good phone off I'm not available God knows what catastrophe is going to happen but nothing really happens I can't meet you in the eye because I'm guilty as charged it's true Namaste welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today I speak about the issue of mental health we have an expert but before I introduce you to her uh a little bit of information there are many studies which have been conducted to determine how many Indians suffer from some form of mental disorders but those are based on people who actually seek therapy or admit to suffering from the symptoms it's 2022 but it's still not spoken about there are many kinds of disorders psychological disorders which impact on your well-being there are the common ones like stress anxiety depression Eating", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-2", "text": "are the common ones like stress anxiety depression Eating Disorders OCD covered related or insomnia-related disassociation then there are serious disorders like personality disorders bipolar disorders schizophrenia and others there is no age barrier to who suffers from these disorders young old middle age no caste status religion or gender barriers to understand when to seek help how to figure out that you might be sliding into some kind of a depression or your friend or your spouse or your parent or your child whether they need help how to figure out that you need professional help I spoke to a counselor Dr kamna chiber she heads the mental health and Behavioral Sciences Wing at Fortis Healthcare in gurgaon Dr chiber is a change therapist who works with children adolescents and adults joining me in this podcast with Dr chiber is Ani's Health beat reporter Shalini thank you very much for speaking with us Dr Tribble my first question to you will be that it's 2022 and yet in India people are", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-3", "text": "that it's 2022 and yet in India people are still hesitant to seek some kind of uh you know a treatment or accept it even that they could be a case of mental disorder in the family most of us would tend to think that oh yes and you know work out exercise sometimes that's not the case right we tend to think that it's oh old age depression play with your grandchildren you become okay this is the advice that older people are given Sometimes women are their health mental health issues are completely ignored that you know no no no multitasking is something everybody does so you know their issues so when does one realize that you are sliding into uh some kind of uh depression state or mental anxiety state where you need to seek help thank you so much for having me here it's a real pleasure that you know we are speaking about this really important topic about mental health I think you know you've rightly pointed out that for a lot of people this is not a topic which is given", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-4", "text": "of people this is not a topic which is given that kind of priority and emphasis for many many years across the decades people have relegated mental health to the background saying that you know stresses hands normal Zindagi shoes so yes that is the truth that for a lot of people Mental Health is not always the priority and we don't realize that the prevalence rates are pretty high for mental health related conditions if you look at the survey which was done in 2015-16 that highlighted very clearly that about 12 percent of the population has mental health related conditions in India in India this is the Indian survey and this is when you know the 12 percent would mean that those who have come and sought or those who are admitting it right the the shadowy secret lot or those who don't even know it that's not there that's not there and that survey also pointed out that ninety percent of the people who actually require mental health related services are not being able to access it now what are the reasons that", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-5", "text": "able to access it now what are the reasons that access is not there yes we can turn around and say that experts we have a very large population we have a huge geographical region that we need to look at but what that also does is that you know as you go into the Interiors of the country a lot of times experts may not be available that is one reason we do have a pacity of experts who has pointed it out our data points it out but at the same time like you were very rightly saying that there are so many myths misconceptions and continued stigma which is associated with mental health and mental health related illnesses that people hesitate to seek help and one of the primary thoughts how can I have a mental health related issue I belong to a good family I have the support system I uh you know have friends and I am educated I'm working I'm earning well why would I have anxiety why would I have depression so people also hesitate to accept that mental health related", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-6", "text": "so people also hesitate to accept that mental health related illnesses are illnesses like physical health related conditions so any individual can have a mental health related issue today I may be sitting here as an expert there is no guarantee to say that tomorrow I could not have a mental health related condition because there is also biological aspect which is associated with mental health related illnesses and we tend to be ignorant of that aspect which compromises people's ability to then start seeking out help we feel judged we feel that people will start looking at us differently we feel that people around us will just not understand what is happening with us if we will go and share with them that this is our concern they would ridicule us they would laugh at us there will be sarcasm coming at us so we try to contain it within our own selves we curb our instincts also which may be telling us that this is not how usually I tend to be when I face problems problem IA what is", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-7", "text": "to be when I face problems problem IA what is my typical approach how much would it affect me and when you are beginning to recognize that you are struggling to cope with situations and increasingly you're finding that either your moods are dipping uh you're not being able to bounce back from situations your ability to cope with the situations is getting compromised it's affecting your sleep it's affecting your physical health you're losing interest in things uh you're not wanting to meet people you're struggling to communicate very effectively about what is going on with you uh the the differences that you're beginning to notice in your approach they are becoming more and more intense even when you're trying to put an effort you're feeling that kind of fatigue setting in that I am not being able to shift things that's the time when you need to start seeking help you need to go speak to someone to try and understand what is it that is going on with you you may not have", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-8", "text": "that is going on with you you may not have an understanding of what that label could be depression hair anxiety here bipolar hence that is not your job to figure just the way you would have approached your GP when you was noticing some symptoms in your body if you're seeing that you know my thinking is changing the way I'm feeling is changing the way I'm responding is changing and it's persisting it's becoming more different I'm getting that feedback from the outside that's the time that you approach someone to understand that could this also mean that there is something which is happening with me which needs to be looked at and you can approach anyone you can still go ahead and talk to the same general physician who you approach on a regular day-to-day basis for your other physical health related concerns because all doctors are trained to understand and know what may be going on in terms of mental health as well and they will be able to guide you that is this something that you need to", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-9", "text": "guide you that is this something that you need to look at from a professional standpoint or is this something which is a regular day-to-day thing it will pass you know doctor when you talk about go talk to someone and you notice a change in you there are many times that you know children know that there's something not right I'm getting angry I'm getting bullied in school but when they speak to their parent their parent would think that there's an outside Factor there's nothing wrong with the child my child is strong you don't want to admit especially with boys I've seen that when girls uh they tend to think not realizing that that is manifesty manifestation of something which is going on and the child is probably not telling you but there is something happening um so you tend to think that you can deal with it because you're a good parent how can you seek help and then when the school counselor who's trained to notice these things points it out the there is a resistance in parents who tend to", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-10", "text": "there is a resistance in parents who tend to think uh they always are going to point out and say there's something wrong with the parenting it's not that my child is fine they're unnecessarily thinking that don't you think that Charlie you're a young parent do you think that that many times parents think that this is a judgment on the on a parent yeah that's true ma'am because they don't want to accept that fact and you know there is something which at that time a child requires some kind of counseling you know they should interact with child they should ask that what exactly is happening but they avoid to do so do you think that doctor like I mean this is a problem that a young parent my children are grown up but Charlie has a young child but I know for a fact when my children were in school there was no counselor and the only counselor who was there was just you know if if the child was getting too violent and there was a there was a you know A bash up", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-11", "text": "was a there was a you know A bash up which happened between boys and girls or something like that they would be told that that was about it and in some schools in in fact in most schools there is no counselor who can detect these minor things which you know by the time the child becomes a preteen it's already manifested in violence or in in behavioral change absolutely no you're very right uh that there is a hesitation which comes in parents to be able to acknowledge first and then accept later on that there is a problem that needs to be addressed and that it could be clinical in nature again it comes back to the same point that um in many ways we are ill-equipped to be able to even uh understand that a mental health related problem could manifest with children we believe that mental health related illnesses are only things which happen to adults that is one belief that people have the second aspect is that we keep on reinforcing the idea that children are always resilient they bounce back", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-12", "text": "idea that children are always resilient they bounce back very well so even when a child is going through a situation where there is some aggression which is coming at them or they have been uh bullied within either in the school or in their neighborhood we believe that they will be able to bounce back especially if we have gotten to know about the situation or the incident didn't we believe that you know when we have spoken to our child we've given them the reassurance we have gone and fought on behalf of our child that everything would take be settled and we don't realize that children too tend to think and feel and as a result also respond in the ways that adults do as well they are also getting equally impacted by a situation when they are going through it but we don't necessarily give it that much importance because one a child does not have an adequate vocabulary to be able to express very comprehensively what is it that is happening to me inside so they may not always", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-13", "text": "happening to me inside so they may not always have emotional words in their repertoire of the vocabulary that they have that which could communicate to a to an adult around them that they are struggling I think the second aspect also is that besides children not having the vocabulary like I said our belief is that children will cope our belief also is that children don't necessarily understand the complexities we are not taking into account the fact that our children especially in today's times are being exposed to a lot more information than what my generation your generation or Generations prior to us were exposed to so their understanding of situations is far more enhanced than what it was for us we were very naive when we were I feel that Our Generations probably did not even understand the complexities of situations of relationships the way younger children today do so I think that's a gap in understanding within adults and uh what we do need to do is start educating and start providing information and knowledge to families as well", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-14", "text": "start providing information and knowledge to families as well that student who can have mental health related concerns it does not mean that you know your child the rest of your child's life is ruined it does not mean that your child is not going to be able to perform a leaderful life that in fact if you were to intervene at an early stage your child is going to overcome whatever it is that the experience is and be able to actually grow towards better strengths in the future if you intervene at an early enough stage what that means is that parents and schools need to work in collaboration they need to see each other as a team yeah and I think that is something which a lot of times goes missing because it's become mix it somewhere become transactional in a way that we look at it as you know okay my child goes here I am paying a certain fee they need to provide me a service that's the kind of mechanism which has come into play so we don't", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-15", "text": "mechanism which has come into play so we don't necessarily see that the school the teachers within the school and the counselor or the principal the headmistress they are all aligned to ensuring that children are growing and developing well that they have the right kind of inputs available the right kind of scaffolding available and if they are highlighting something to you it's not because they want to you know segregate your child or make your child feel that they're different or they're not coming out of some sort of a vengeful space to impact your child's progress they're actually invested they're spending a lot of time the child spends maximum time in school at least now during covet that had changed for us but now children are back to Schools they're spending so much time over there teachers are most sensitive to noticing what are the changes that are happening and if parents would see this as a collaborative process teachers would also point out things at a much earlier stage yeah so if we start changing our approaches and", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-16", "text": "stage yeah so if we start changing our approaches and we start building on our information and understanding I feel that a lot of these situations can be addressed uh in a much more wholesome manner because children do need that support yeah it is these are basically spatially after lockdown you they really they really need you know some kind of support what I have also seen that you know if you talk to the teacher teacher will say you know it's a kind of negative motivation what does negative motivation waste was very surprising you know if you you are listen you yours you know you are expecting something else from the teacher and teacher says your child has not done this and that and you know if you are saying we are saying something to the child so ma'am take it as a negative motivation we can understand negative motivation but what about six year old or five-year-old child you know it's like you know over expectations from the you know parents also towards teachers and teachers also uh towards the parents", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-17", "text": "towards teachers and teachers also uh towards the parents get to this point and ask the doctor an additional question especially during covert times because you know the teachers have to finish the courses so there are many teachers who say I'm we cannot like imagine a class where you have 40 you know 35 40 50 kids of course a teacher notices these discrepancies but the pressure is on them also that do they do they concentrate on these things so their parent-teacher meeting actually becomes a very draining exercise because she has to tell the parent about this and the parent has no patience because a parent is more concerned about the grades and about syllabus I'm going to get to that point and over expectations and comparison also this is also the factor it's a lot of comparisons question of timing and too many kids to each counselor or each teacher that's a major major issue I'm going to get to that uh and ask you related question but doc when you were speaking about you know these things it just suddenly", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-18", "text": "speaking about you know these things it just suddenly struck me about this generational shift you know Safety and Security Now My Generation our parents never talk to us about the wrong touch right right and we were never told that we were left with uncles and aunts and cousins and people like that and there are many in my generation who were victim to this wrong touch maybe you are seeing more in your generation where parents are talking about this to their children how important is it for parents to discuss this because if it is not discussed many people say this um and all that might be decent people but they might be a male servant out there there might be a woman servant out there when I say servant of course it's not pejoratively used but what I mean is unattended house help anybody out there guest working in guest walking in right and maybe another older child also experimenting you know an older cousin an older uncle aunt somebody experimenting with a younger child figuring out how does one talk", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-19", "text": "a younger child figuring out how does one talk to this there is a hesitancy because our parents didn't talk to us so what is the language how do you talk to your child your grandchild about these subjects which have remained Taboo in our families I think this is such an important aspect that uh I'm so glad we're talking about this right now as well because we don't even pick it up in a lot of our regular conversations as well and it's so essential that we need to start talking to Children more about what is good touch what is Bad Touch what is uh attraction how are relationships formed uh what is it that leads to the sense of arousal that you experience when you are in the presence of you know either the opposite or the same gender and that these are things which could happen to you and an attraction can evolve at a certain stage in your life and uh you need to talk about sexual sexuality about orientation all of those are topics which now have assumed a lot", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-20", "text": "of those are topics which now have assumed a lot of importance because if we as parents as family members as adults who are around a certain child will not be speaking about it we need to understand that children are still getting all of that information but what will happen is that they will pick it up from sources which may not be the most reliable which will not be the most credible in which information may be presented in ways that could either enhance their curiosity or make them start taking or indulging in Risky behaviors and they would not and they would get more psychologically impacted because their young minds are not fine-tuned or developed enough to be able to process that kind of information but if you have a parent or an adult who is around you who is willing to sit down and talk with you then all of that Curiosity all of those questions are getting addressed at the right stage at the right time which is so crucial and I think right now uh the conversations around good touch", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-21", "text": "I think right now uh the conversations around good touch and Bad Touch have certainly increased so much because we are so much more attuned to all the situations that are happening around us media reports on so many different um you know instances incidents which have happened with young children with older children as well with adults as well so um parents taking that step is so important and I think schools are also playing a very large role where they have started addressing a lot of these things within the school premises itself and I think what is more important for a parent to keep in mind is that the conversation that you have to have is not a one-time conversation I think that's the first important piece that we always need to keep in mind this is going to be a conversation which you need to have at multiple times those multiple times are going to be based on the age of the child you start with a young child who's even going to a kindergarten where you're going to be talking to the child about", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-22", "text": "you're going to be talking to the child about touch you will talk to the child about touch in a way that the child can understand and you will have to keep on refining that conversation till the child is going to get into even the senior grades where you're not necessarily talking just about touch but then you're talking about sexuality and orientation and those conversations are going to come in and what is going I'm going to interrupt you doctor I'm so sorry where do you get the tools how does a parent know this because our parents were like kind of a thing right right so how do you get as a nobody teaches these things to us in school that we will need to do this no doctor tells us nobody tells us or how do we get the tools how do we equip ourselves as parents and like you're saying that even at kindergarten all we need told was don't talk to strangers that's all that we were told and you know how do you where do you get the tools", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-23", "text": "know how do you where do you get the tools like you were saying that you this is how you figure out that there is something wrong with you mentally and you need to figure out that you're you're slipping into depression or you're seeing triggers how do you where do you learn how to be a parent to teach these things several times you know what happens that you know [Music] we should encourage our children I believe but what parents does that it does happen that children a lot of times will start shutting down especially when the child is told that you know but or you know we start becoming rejecting of the child's emotions so as soon as you will say something like that he's never going to come back or she's never going to come back the child is never coming back to you regardless of what the new situation may be and who that person may be they will never be able to feel that you would trust them so while you may be doing a superlative job as a", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-24", "text": "you may be doing a superlative job as a parent in general this would become the one space that the child may feel that they cannot confide in you and this would become the one space that would trouble them for a very very long time to come and would impact their relationships their adult experiences and their expectations that they have from adults around them in general taking away from their sense of security their sense of trust their belief in their own self because they would always feel that if my parents don't trust me why would the outside world so you're compromising their ability to be able to grow up into becoming hell the Adaptive adults in the future but going back to what your traditional question was that you know how do you equip yourself with the right tools to be able to have those conversations I think the first thing that parents need to do is whoever your pediatrician is they talk to you about Milestones right you need to start utilizing that understanding that your pediatrician is giving you about", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-25", "text": "understanding that your pediatrician is giving you about the Milestones to start determining that you know okay now is the age of the stage which is coming when my child is growing up and this is now going to be the time when I'm going to have these conversations when you know your child is stepping outside for a very young kid you will have to start talking to them about good touch and Bad Touch at a much earlier age and you will have to talk about it in a very gentle way to say that you know this is so you will have to keep on tweaking that Converse station as per the age of the child over a period of time you may have to make it also gender specific you may have to say especially when the child is going to school um so you have to keep on changing those conversations over a period of time the second thing you need to do is be very aware of what are the conversations happening in school when school May there are conversations happening you", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-26", "text": "school when school May there are conversations happening you need to use that as your cue to say that okay I need to now go back and ask my child that what was it like for you when a conversation has happened in the school about good touch and Bad Touch understand from your child what did they understand how much did they make sense of it do they have any questions speak about these matters because they themselves are hesitant they're processing it themselves another thing is if there are any viewers who are you know or listeners who are not parents please understand that this responsibility also extends to aunts and uncles you know you if you love your nephew or niece and you're seeing that your sister or brother is not having this conversation with their children listening to this conversation what Dr chipper is saying that talk talk to them because that is how you become a good aunt or a good uncle have you spoken about good parenting Goods Aunt good uncle but parents also face this like", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-27", "text": "Aunt good uncle but parents also face this like women and men uh a major major issue I'm seeing is of you know I in my office in my Newsroom there are so many young girls and uh you know mostly in newsrooms there are it's it's populated by young women and my generation was always told that oh you could multitask you can do you can manage home as well as work but seems like that led to my generation having a lot of stress and anxiety and none of us want to admit it at least my generation women don't want to admit it that we took on too much and that's impacted on in so many ways you know uh on us because we we think we can do it all absolutely and I think uh you know it just kind of highlights that that iconic poster right behind you you just said we can do it all and the poster says we can do it and I think there's a history to this sister there's a big history to that poster it started out", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-28", "text": "there's a big history to that poster it started out at a time when there was a significant gender gap it came in at a point in time when women were pushing for equality for rights when they were saying that you know what we too can actually do it we don't need men to just uh stand there and tell us that we are supposed to play a certain type of role or occupy a certain position and handle only certain types of chores we are ourselves pretty strong and we have the ability to be able to do a lot of different things and balance out different roles it was at a point in time when we needed that but what it has done is that it's only ascribed more and more onto the plate of a woman but it's not gotten balanced out by providing her more and more support to be able to take on the additional things that she's taking on and somewhere it's become a very skewed um situation that we are noticing around us these days and I think it's not", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-29", "text": "around us these days and I think it's not just your generation My Generation even a lot of the younger younger ladies that I continue to work with everyone talks about the fact that how they feel a lot of times unsupported a lot of times not even able to talk about the fact that they are unsupported and that they don't have the space to be able to come out and say that I am stressed because as soon as I say that it becomes about my gender and you will get away with it and you know everyone will come around and try and give you more relaxation and leverages so that you can keep growing and doing well not recognizing that in any case there isn't an equal way in which things are being done and I think that uh somewhere women are expected to be these superheroes you know who have these superpowers who are going to be doing these multiple things at at the same time you go to work but before you go to work you need to ensure everything is lined up at home", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-30", "text": "you need to ensure everything is lined up at home uh if you are living with your parents then for them if you're with your in-laws then for them if you have children then to take care of them making sure that while you're not there if anyone has any need no one should be able to turn around and tell you so you have to anticipate plan in advance make sure there are resources available at home enough staff enough help to be able to ensure and that is if you can afford that to make sure that that is there to cover up for when you're not going to be available your own self and keep smiling and keep smiling have you noticed doctor that we've all been told not to scowl not to feed or not to give the impression also forget about a man can not look yeah you don't yeah firstly he doesn't need to use lipstick but a woman has to smile through her troubles a man doesn't need to smile through his troubles if he looks stressed out or if", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-31", "text": "his troubles if he looks stressed out or if he looks uh if he's scowling it's like see what a hard working guy like a manager I'm talking about when a manager works and he doesn't need to smile he doesn't he can look busy all the time but a woman even if she's busy needs to smile needs to look happy because if she doesn't look happy she has poor manners she is angry and a bad boss right and this manifests everywhere mind you even women anchors they need to look in a particular manner TV anchors men it doesn't matter what they look like the same I'm sure is with doctors right like you need to look you need to have better manners when you're dealing with patience as compared to your male doctors who can look busy and say though but a woman needs to have that nurturing thing all the time and that puts pressure all the time on you it does but these are also so reflective of the kind of roles and stereotypes that have", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-32", "text": "of the kind of roles and stereotypes that have over the years come and gotten associated with being with what being a woman is all about and uh you know it's so uh interesting when you were speaking about uh the workplaces and how you know a man could be a certain way and a woman could be a certain way and the example that was popping up in my head repeatedly was how when a woman snaps in the office it becomes about maybe she's on her cycle and when a man will snap it's like pressure and so you know we have these very different ways in which we even perceive emotional responses or ways in which people are communicating because we ascribe it to certain stereotypes that we have been holding on to a very very long time and one of the expectations that as a result has come on to women is to present themselves in a certain way to uphold themselves in a certain way and to communicate and speak and hold those nurturing roles and be uh", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-33", "text": "speak and hold those nurturing roles and be uh very pleasant and put together at all times even though you may not be feeling up to it and yes there is a movement which has started happening against that in a way where you know a lot of women have started stepping in and saying that you know if I'm not having a good day I'm not having a good day and if you want to judge me then go ahead you know and do that but I'm not going to be apologetic about this because what that pressure is doing a lot of times it's not just stress this is what is creating a lot of anxiousness it is what is impacting moods it is leading to issues like depression it's causing women a lot of sleepless nights they are feeling they're working so hard they may be putting in a lot of effort but then you're not feeling happy at the end of the day so what's the purpose of it and then you begin to question the larger purpose the larger", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-34", "text": "you begin to question the larger purpose the larger meaning of what you're doing in the kind of life you're leading and you're almost feeling that you know this is like an endless Road you know a tunnel which does not seem to have any light at the end of it and you constantly feel yourself struggling as a result and that's where mental health related issues tend to Blossom I'm also going to come on to these kovid related issues Charlie because I remember you know you were also covering at that time these uh you know young people losing parents uh you know and both parents sometimes to covid and parents who had no comorbidities sometimes so you know you always thought that parents will live longer like when they were in their 60s maybe mild diabetes maybe mild asthma but they they succumb to covet and some of them some of these young people I know they got no closure because they couldn't even perform the last rights of their parents or they couldn't even they couldn't even see the body", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-35", "text": "they couldn't even they couldn't even see the body of their parents they were cremated because they themselves were in hospital so this is both young men and women like you know in my introduction I said that depression doesn't hit any class any specific class caste gender anybody so this happened to Men Women everybody that I know too and there was no closure then but many of us tend to think by now get over it because you know but it it doesn't end like that does it there's no closures to some people's grief no there isn't and uh even though in our own diagnostic manuals we may have gone through phases where we have tried to say you know oh yours a good enough time period for you to cope with grief to seeing that there can't be a uh you know time frame associated with it to saying that you know yes there should be a time frame and we've in our own diagnostic uh in our ways of diagnosing that could this be now an adjustment", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-36", "text": "of diagnosing that could this be now an adjustment disorder could this now be a depressive illness have gone through those processes but I think when we're looking at covid what it has done is it has completely ripped apart whatever resources that people had within themselves and whatever resilience was there to be able to cope with things like loss in grief because it was I don't there was nothing like this which people had ever dealt with dealing with a loss which happens very suddenly in itself is very difficult and dealing with a loss which is happening suddenly and is happening on Mars is extremely extremely traumatic for people and what we're seeing right now is almost a traumatic kind of a response towards that sense of having lost people not having been able to have those conversations with them before they went not having been able to do their last rights in the way that we have all been born and brought up with knowing that that is also a part of our heritage our", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-37", "text": "that that is also a part of our heritage our culture and what that entire process of doing the rituals and all always does for us is it that's what allows us to go through that closure process you know it's a healing it's a it has its own healing process associated with it sure uh that Community grieving together with the family who has lost someone is what allows us to be able to also feel a lot of sense of support none of that happened covert was a period where you could not have multiple people occupying the same space you could not even have your entire family how do you cope how do you feel supported you feel isolated alone in your entire experience and that is what has ensured that somewhere people have not been able to necessarily fully overcome their sense of grief yes right now where we are at today with life moving towards that normalcy that we were used to three years ago changing the ways in which people are looking at things it's leading them to be able to", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-38", "text": "looking at things it's leading them to be able to let go of some of those experiences but that sense of loss is not getting filled up yeah so it is not but still they are going through the disaster you know if you talk somebody after so long it's a like do you know what has happened during Delta wave everybody talk about selection they wanted to talk it was like a disaster yeah I mean I met with people like for example we were talking about grief right like I know of a bride just right at that time she was like I'm going to get married regardless I'm not postponing this because of various reasons but she never got that lenga pen uh and you know she had to compromise at that time she was ready to do it because she wanted to they had a certain timeline when they wanted to get married have babies and pay their emis and you know all those things you have you work for with the timeline right you didn't get that and she can't even talk", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-39", "text": "you didn't get that and she can't even talk about it because it's oh that this is a rich person problem people lost their loved ones you know so this rich people problem many people don't seek help to go to a counselor psychologist psychiatrist firstly nobody knows you were saying when it's a children it should go to your pediatrician or your general practitioner who will tell you that yes you're sliding in and is it a rich person problem you know I think it's very uh unfortunate that we end up classifying things in our own mind you know this is a rich person's problem this is not a problem which should be looked at if it's a problem it's stressing you out it's troubling you it's giving you sleepless nights it's preoccupying your thought process it's impacting your functioning please go and talk to someone it is a problem regardless of you know whether it seems like a problem to someone around you or not it's a problem for you we have to learn to", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-40", "text": "it's a problem for you we have to learn to start prioritizing our own selves and our own mental health it's compromising your well-being it's a large enough issue then right don't judge your own self because that's where the Judgment process is starting we're judging our own selves we're giving the right to everyone around us also to judge us because they can see through the discomfort that you're having and being able to even talk about the fact that you're troubled by something which could be considered not that big a grave or situation and if you feel that the people around you are not being able to understand or respond to you in the way that you require for them to then reaching out to an expert is extremely important and you're very right in saying that you know people a lot of times will not know who to reach out to uh the reason they don't know is because they don't know what the differences are between the different uh experts who are available I would still say that", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-41", "text": "uh experts who are available I would still say that you know even if you're an adult you can always talk to a GP if you don't know your internal medicine doctor if you don't know who you could be speaking with but otherwise if you feel that it's a situation which um if there are situations in your life which are troubling you which you are not being able to let go of or reach some sort of an understanding or solution of talking to a psychologist could be helpful now psychologists are of different types um you've got people who are who've done their masters who are counselors or psychologists in general who we call them and they are typically trained to work uh with concerns which made me say health related relationships related when you're looking at more clinical related issues that's where clinical psychologists come in and in India the qualifying degree for them would be at least an M Phil in Psychology and some of them may have also done further their doctoral studies around it as well and uh", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-42", "text": "their doctoral studies around it as well and uh so you would then reach to a clinical psychologist now you may not be able to figure out who may be the right person still go to any one of them a psychiatrist would work with the clinical problems but they would utilize medications to treat those problems so if you have a depressive illness you have a bipolar disorder you have a schizoaffective or a schizophrenia or an anxiety disorder when you've reached a diagnosis a lot of these may require a medical intervention because like I mentioned that mental health related illnesses have a strong biological component which can only be addressed with medications that the psychiatrist will do the therapists or the psychologists the clinical psychologists they will all be working in parallel usually with the psychiatrist on the same problems but doing the talk therapy see a dog I've noticed that you can take a child to a therapist now a major major issue see with Modern Magic medication uh people are living longer so you", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-43", "text": "Magic medication uh people are living longer so you have a huge problem uh on our hands with uh with you know parents grandparents living long which is very nice but there are aging related issues because of one again kovid related because they were living apart suddenly that link was broken you couldn't visit your parents you couldn't visit your grandparents they were isolated living for almost a year living on their own right they could meet with their children they could meet with their grandchildren during that and then there were issues like you know older people used to go for satsang or they had those those support structures where they would go to the neighborhood uh you know place where they know their yoga yeah group therapies which we used to they were great stress Busters right now depression sets in but when they had no issues till they were 70 75 suddenly when they are you know 75 80 they have mild dementia related issues they have this anger related issues because they feel they were neglected right they know that they were neglected", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-44", "text": "were neglected right they know that they were neglected for a certain reason which couldn't be so Resort but these are manifesting but because of their age you can't take them to the doctor they will not go they will not admit it firstly that they need some help and young professionals don't have the time well the solution of course lies in being able to sit down and have conversations because the garage situation right and if there is a clinical problem then it needs to be addressed clinically I understand that the elderly a lot of times are resistant to engaging in the conversations I've seen it with my own grandparents so yeah you know I and I I work in this space and despite that the challenge was there and uh but then if it is a medical issue which is emerged then it needs to be dealt with through the psychiatrist and if there is a clear-cut depression or a clear-cut anxiety or some other illness an insomnia which is their dementia like changes which are happening then", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-45", "text": "is their dementia like changes which are happening then the consults need to start happening with the doctors at least but the second aspect is that you need to start talking to your parents sit down have that difficult conversation they will be resistant they will not want to engage in that interaction uh there may be a lot of cognitive errors like we say you know a problem may be getting magnified in their mind they may have developed a tunnel vision on an issue they may not be willing to look at uh the different aspects of the situation while those errors may be there in the way they are thinking or looking at a situation it's only if you're going to sit down and have that conversation with them not once but be willing to engage a few times I do feel that that barrier of resistance does break at the end of the day for them meaning and purpose comes through their family seeing their children engaging with their grandchildren the more they are able to do that the more they feel much", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-46", "text": "are able to do that the more they feel much more happier a lot more relaxed they do need to have their routines and a push will be required to kind of encourage them to say that you know up restart confidence also goes down because you haven't stepped out you're not sure will I be able to do that work for a kilometer that I used to do previously so the solution is to tell them there are 100 meters but yes as the younger person around them you will have to engage and invest because they have also engaged and invested in us at a time when they do not have the time true that's true that's so true to have the patience and you know uh I know that I used to get irritated that I'll come at 8 pm why do you keep asking what time will you come or oh you've come at nine didn't you say you you'd come tomorrow you know those kind of things but then I realize as I'm aging that I make the same mistakes I", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-47", "text": "I'm aging that I make the same mistakes I didn't have the patience then I just hope my children have the patience with me do you feel that uh do you see yourself becoming the parent that used to irritate you when you were young yeah that's true ma'am but you know most of the time whenever I see uh you know a parent or old age parents so it's like you know I always talk them a lot I love do a lot of sharing a lot of caring it's like you know they wanted to talk they want company at that point of stage so it's like you you know they want key that says because we sometimes we also take them granted you know like if they come under older people this is one thing I wanted to talk to you about also older people falling for scams right uh because what has happened is that everybody has a cell phone uh there was no need at some point of time to teach your parent how to use Google and how to use uh internet how", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-48", "text": "to use Google and how to use uh internet how to do Instagram but now what has happened is somebody gives a call and says give your OTP they give the OTP yeah this is happening so you don't uh so this how to how to tell your children to watch out for scams on and to you know the safety part of of using the cell phone because everybody gave their kids cell phone for safety reasons at some point of time and then they gave them devices during covid but then there's no safety so they could be watching and your eight year old kid could be watching porn and your 70 year old parent can be giving the OTP on the phone how do you tell this how do you do you need do you need an outsider to teach this to your kids and you need an outsider to tell your parents I wish we could have Outsiders doing so much more but I mean outside I mean is do you need to tell your your therapist that please tell my parent or", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-49", "text": "tell your your therapist that please tell my parent or please tell my kid no no you don't need that at all you know I think what you do need is um becoming more aware you know I think that we're so stuck in our day-to-day routines a lot of times we're not switching off from our work or from the tasks that we feel we need to do that it takes away from our awareness of what may be going on with other people who are there within the home so you are there you're physically present but a lot of times you're not necessarily psychologically engaged to their experiences that's where the Gap starts happening that's where you start missing out on the cues that I need to provide a certain information or I need to provide a certain uh scaffolding or a sense or create some sort of a security mechanism to be able to protect both the young people as well as the elderly who are who are either living with me or may not be living with me as well", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-50", "text": "me or may not be living with me as well and it's only going to be if you are fully there in the moments that you are spending and you're not preoccupied with other things that you will be able to start noticing these things and that's the first change that I think people need to start doing and what do you need to do for that start switching off your phones when you are at home we feel that the whole world is going to collapse and crash you know our phone off I'm not available God knows what catastrophe is going to happen but nothing really happens I can't meet you in the eye because I'm guilty as charged it's true you know uh it's I I have seen even in restaurants people sitting and not looking and this used to I used to see this abroad I never used to see this in India but in India yes now it's there everywhere and it's not just in urban India it's a rural phenomenon too it is it very much is because um", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-51", "text": "too it is it very much is because um the phones the media the social media everything is infiltrated and penetrated Our Lives to such an extent that we feel incapacitated if we did not have these around us we have lost our ability to have fun and to be able to spend time with our own selves we've lost our ability to be able to uh spend time doing activities which do not involve social media right we are only looking at gadgets a lot of the times in fact a lot of times if I ask young people I ask that you know okay what are the hobbies that you currently have most of them are completely at a loss because what the what their hobbies are are either playing on their PlayStations and Xboxes or they're on their phones on their Instagrams or their Twitters and Facebooks whatever and numerous social media platforms which have come up and uh they're not necessarily engaging with the real world people in the real world the same people that they are texting with they would", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-52", "text": "the same people that they are texting with they would hesitate to be able to have an in-person conversation now what are we doing we're taking away our own skill sets we are losing our abilities to be able to build those relationships conversations we can't have those conversations we feel ill-equipped in group settings yes and that's it's not just children I'm noticing this in in older generation people also where especially after covet you know getting together four to six people in a room don't have patience anymore to have conversations after a while it gets the noise of four people talking in a room gets to you you want to go back home you don't want to talk because it's it's become too much doctor I just wanted to know this what is the role of social media if I talk about Instagram also Twitter also on Twitter also what uh what we see that you know the kind of tweet you have done it's like you know come hits and if we talk about Instagram also it's like you know they filter their", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-53", "text": "about Instagram also it's like you know they filter their photos and uh they are completely different so how it is affecting a kind of anxiety or what exactly it is no no no it's not they are looking Shalini I think what is happening is that the person themselves right I've used suppose I've used a filter when I look at the mirror so it's not what other people are saying what you yourself are feeling because when you look at the mirror you're you're not actually different yeah you're not as thin yeah you're not as your complexion is not fair because you people lighten their skin so it's not what other people are saying so much yeah how it it affects basically so I think uh their self-worth May problem because people are actually making themselves look taller I can understand you know you want to look thinner or uh more uh voluminous in some respect but making yourself taller that's never going to happen but this is happening now so how it is going", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-54", "text": "this is happening now so how it is going to affect what kind of thing anxiety it gives so I think there are two three aspects that we need to understand that there is a lot of pressure that people are feeling that they need to conform to a certain type of image a certain type of sometimes body image a certain type of way in which they're being perceived on the outside by the rest of the world okay that's what you were trying to say okay and when the perceptions are uh being directed in your own mind on account of what is the kind of response that you're getting from people you start wanting to change it now what that does is that you're bringing about a discrepancy between what is your real self what is the virtual self that entire gap which is beginning to emerge between the real and the virtual self is going to lead to a lot of depletion in your own ability to feel good about who you are you feel unsure about your own self it leads", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-55", "text": "are you feel unsure about your own self it leads to a lot of doubts about um am I really this good enough what would happen if I were to step into the real world and when people actually see me for who I am so you start thinking that I am not going to be accepted by people on the outside so it's going to lead to a lot of avoidance of social situations of not wanting to present yourself for just who you are it leads to people to then start thinking about doing procedures for their own selves cosmetic surgeries because they feel that that is going to be the better way to look that is the more acceptable way and if you've ended up having some sort of Greater recognition on account of these changed ways in which you're presenting yourself on these online platforms you feel that yes that is what is actually more acceptable and it's leading to a false belief system where you are becoming rejecting of your own self impacts your sense of self your worthiness your esteem can", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-56", "text": "your sense of self your worthiness your esteem can make you feel extremely anxious can actually impact your moods make you feel lowly to things like depression a lot of people become extremely preoccupied with the thought process successes they may find themselves constantly thinking about things you know what is going to be my next post how do I ensure I keep looking like this what am I going to do when I'm going to step out how do I make sure that you know I'm not judged and that's the preoccupation with such sins so your entire thought process you start seeing is Shifting it will impact your functionality it will affect the ways in which you're engaging with people your relationships your work everything so the deleterious impact that something like this can have is so large and which is why with a lot of young people when we work with them uh one of the two of the things that we talk about one is about media literacy which is that you need to start raising questions about the media content that", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-57", "text": "need to start raising questions about the media content that is coming at you and start understanding what is the source of the information what could be the purpose behind it what could there be a different way of looking at the same thing what are the values that are being put forward by that media message but simultaneously we are also talking to them about their sense of self their self-concepts and how do you need to strengthen those and how do you start learning to lean into Who You Are as a person build acceptance for who you are recognized like especially like now you know these online dating sites and all yeah because the left swipe right swipe business which is going on many people or young when men and women think that they have to conform to those stereotypes they take medication they take supplements because they need to look in a particular manner I was speaking to a a Gym trainer who said that he knows of a couple of incidents which have happened where you know they fixed trainer exercise previous night", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-58", "text": "where you know they fixed trainer exercise previous night they may have had a late night but then they are not because they have paid the trainer already or they've paid the gym they need to reach the gym and they need to exercise so on three hours of sleep they come to the exercise to they come to exercise now to do that they take a Red Bull or they take you know something to keep them awake to exercise and then those heart attacks those things are happening in the gym these are real problems which used to happen to celebrities earlier it's happening to ordinary middle class homes where young people just because of these online because most of the dating is happening online do you see that as a real problem which is happening now a lot of the dating is happening online but what's also happening is that there is so much access to information about how you can do these things that people are indiscriminately relying on it not recognizing that everything that is done there is one a logic", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-59", "text": "that everything that is done there is one a logic behind it there would be some sort of a scientific thought process that needs to be associated with any sort of a practice so if you are going to be taking a Red Bull and you've just had three hours of sleep what is it really doing to your body you're not even raising that question inside you whereas when someone may be working uh you know a doctor is working with a celebrity or you know a physical health practitioner is working with a celebrity and they would be utilizing certain mechanisms they would have a full thought process around it but you're not aware of that thought process you just pick the behavior and you're randomly implementing it on yourself being experimental and then which is leading to dility risk consequences and which is where media literacy comes in you need to start understanding the thought process behind what is being done why is it being done stop following people blindly reduce the comparisons start building your own self there is goodness in every", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-60", "text": "start building your own self there is goodness in every individual there is a positive in every individual everyone has strengths there will always be areas of development or Improvement that we will all have throughout our life but that doesn't take away from who you are and you need to be able to lean into that and I do believe very strongly that people need to start building interests outside of the virtual world we have to engage with life we need to start doing a conscious digital detox so that we can expose ourselves in a very conscious manner to other things there's a lot which is there out there to experience I'm going to have you coming back back to the studio to discuss with me about social media I think that's a whole different realm and how you know all of us need to learn the tools to cope with you know the negativity that comes in from uh overexposure to social media of course it has its good points and uh but how uh how we can cope with this new realm that we are all", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "d4a408fdd647-61", "text": "can cope with this new realm that we are all entering and especially we haven't even gone into you know the rural areas and the problems that it's having because they're not trained at least some of us are equipped with a certain education where we are you know we know how to handle it so I'm going to have to come back thank you so much for your time thank you so much it was a real pleasure being here with you thank you for listening in to Ani podcast with Smitha prakash please like or subscribe in whichever platform you have listened to this namaste foreign [Music]", "source": "Ds6VAtfQ5tU"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-0", "text": "if you look at the history Jews lived in India for 2000 years about 900 Indian soldiers are buried in the soil of Israel they fought before Israel was there with the Brits against the Turks so there are many links there were a few visits high-level visits of Israeli presidency Israeli Prime Minister Sharon the Indian president to Israel but the game changer was probably the visit of Prime Minister Modi to Israel in 2017. I've served as Ambassador in quite a few countries and and Diplomat in more others I think India by far has the most popular supports towards Israel our cooperation India and Israel Corporation counterterrorism as I said before is very wide very developed from intelligence gathering to Special Forces to reaction forces so there are it's very popular here I hear it every place everywhere everyone speaks to me about it they're coming out with the Indian version of uh of them Namaste jaihin welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today I spoke with Israel's ambassador to", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-1", "text": "prakash today I spoke with Israel's ambassador to India now gilon it was about india-israel relations everybody knows that it's on a very sound footing from top down onwards People to People contact uh on everything it is a relationship which is more of a partnership now uh considering that there was a time that even on our passports it said you know not valid for Israel we didn't even recognize Israel formally we didn't have diplomatic relations with Israel from that era which was in the you know Cold War era from that we have really come forward to partnership at so many levels but this interview was more about just india-israel relations he spoke about his uh his growing up in a family where there was a holocaust Survivor in his grandparent and uh the reality of Israel today where uh it it speaks to other countries from a position of strength yet it's foreign policy is more flexible than it has ever been it's talking to countries which even don't formally acknowledge the existence of Israel so", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-2", "text": "even don't formally acknowledge the existence of Israel so there's a lot that it has in common with India when it comes to a neighborhood which is volatile which uh which is hostile even uh in in not accepting Israel's existence India is fighting a two and a half front War where are our similarities and where are our differences watch or listen to this very interesting conversation Mr kilon thank you very much for speaking with us um I'd like to begin by asking you you know uh recently the Indian foreign minister he said that when he was asked about why India Israel relations aren't as robust and not as thriving as they used to be or they could have not used to be as they could have been what were the impediments uh he said that uh we could have benefited from the ties but uh once you come back out of vote Bank politics your foreign policies also get impacted gone are the days when wood Bank politics dominated National interest uh I think what what he was saying was that you", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-3", "text": "I think what what he was saying was that you know that at some point of time india-israel relations could have been more than uh they were and now we are on this on this trajectory upward trajectory how was this comment viewed in Israel I think it's probably reflecting the the situation as it was if going back to our relations Israel was established a few months after uh India and David minguri on our first prime minister so India of the Indian Indian movement as the sister movement as a role model he himself was practicing yoga and was is very close if you go to his house in in the negative desert where he lived his last years you see the picture of Gandhi on on his bedroom wall so for him by the way after the the first countries to recognize Israel then were the Soviet Union of the taiyossr and the U.S and he said once India will support us we closed the full cycle and it took another couple of years only 1950 and then in 53 we", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-4", "text": "of years only 1950 and then in 53 we put a consulate in Mumbai not non-reci protocol so India did not do the same and of course Consulate in Mumbai is import Bombay of the time is important but um it doesn't do all the functions so we we did have relations over the years we were cooperating especially in defense very significantly even without full diplomatic full diplomatic race and sense of embassies and everything then in 92 India together with a big wave in the world after collapse of Soviet Union a Cold War ending and the Madrid conference peace conference in 91 so there was a slight uh I think change of countries towards Israel India joined the race and they were there were a few visit high level visits of Israeli presidency Israeli Prime Minister Sharon the Indian president to Israel but the game changer was probably the visit of Prime Minister Modi to Israel in 2017 and then a few months later in January 18 Netanyahu coming here because I think you know this was the dehyphenation basis", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-5", "text": "I think you know this was the dehyphenation basis of saying there is the Palestinian issue but this cannot be the thing that is representing our relations with Israel it has to be treated separately from Israel and he defined also the relation strategic partnership at that visit we defined together and you know I've served as Ambassador in quite a few countries and and Diplomat in more others and I think India by far has the most popular supports towards Israel if you speak to people in India my experience I visited already now I did the head count after concluding now a year I visited about 11 12 different uh States here and you know I'm trying to go around because I understand that delhi's Delhi is not India um and every place I go I hear a lot of admiration towards Israel really it's very you know for different people from high level and for low level from all all kinds of people and what Prime Minister Modi did together with Netanyahu at the time they really made it now a", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-6", "text": "Netanyahu at the time they really made it now a top top down it came from the political level the same message that came from the they met in the middle both messages of the people wanting to have more relations with this it was also this uh shying away from the actuality shying away from the fact that we needed each other or rather India um uh you know now India is saying that it's one of the trusted and valued Partners not just just not just a relationship but like a partnership I think it took time to reach uh this stage right yes I took time and the big shift as I said 2017 because the pictures of the two prime ministers together on the sea in Israel those were very iconic pictures iconic pictures sent a message to people you know if you look at the history Jews lived in India as equal as Citizens and no different than any other minority that so many minorities and different religions in this country so just lived here for two thousand years and also later on", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-7", "text": "here for two thousand years and also later on came New Waves of Jews from uh we call them baghdadi but they came from the Middle East in general not only from Iraq and they were very also very successful in business you look at the in in Mumbai the Sassoon family for example there are few very strong families and also in Bollywood the first actresses were Jewish baghdadi women and they were very strong here so you would think that naturally will continue 900 about 900 Indian soldiers are buried in the soil of Israel they fought before Israel was there with the Brits against the Turks so there are many links that should have made us and I understand what the foreign minister Jay Shankar is speaking about of course the one of the considerations of of India was to get support on the Pakistani issue hoping that if they take aside they will be supported I think that also this was there was a disillusion on that and also the need of India is a very strong country today it's", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-8", "text": "need of India is a very strong country today it's not the same country that it was when it was established I think it's a self-assured strong country and can have its own independent foreign policy without being afraid of what others would say but now that you mentioned Pakistan I have to get on to that Pakistan is one of the countries which doesn't recognize Israel even now in 2022 but there are reports that a Pakistani and an Indonesian delegation was in Israel recently do we see a you know a recognition of the reality and Pakistan opening uh diplomatic ties with Israel in the near future I must say that our policy from day one was speaking to whoever is ready to speak to us we never said no to anyone our problem is that many especially Muslim countries not only but especially refuse to speak to us they refuse to have any connections any and Pakistan is one of these countries so every time they are like track two track three you know people some of them not living in living in in", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-9", "text": "people some of them not living in living in in the in their own countries anymore are ready to come and speak as people to people we are very happy to speak to people I think that dialogue is very important I don't think that in the near future we would have full diplomatic relations or in the diplomatic relations with Pakistan and by the way not because of us necessarily but because of Pakistan they are refusing and also I think Pakistan is also uneasy with India and Israel cooperating on defense because because their entire thing is that you know it's being used in Kashmir and if they were to recognize open diplomatic ties with Israel then they cannot do that because ideologically they are aligned with with the whole issue of Kashmir does that make sense no I I and for me as a diplomat I know that diplomacy is used to influence if you want to influences today what is their influence of countries who have no really diplomatic relations with Israel be it Pakistan beat other countries", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-10", "text": "relations with Israel be it Pakistan beat other countries so if you want to influence the country you have to have relations because at the end of the day it's like people you have to have a relationship in order to listen to the other side or you know you have to have something the other side wants from you and when there are no relations there is nothing their influence over Israel or the ability to say to Israel please do this don't do that it's not existent just not existent yes and in fact uh you know last year they even said that India States sponsored continuing widespread surveillance and spying operations is in clear breach of global Norms of responsible State behavior and this was in reaction to some media reports to say that India was using spy technology which was which they got from Israel to spy on uh then uh prime minister Imran Khan so that that rankles them that we are India and Israel are cooperating on cyber security and they feel that that that technology is being used against Pakistan I can", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-11", "text": "that that technology is being used against Pakistan I can tell you that we are cooperating over everything really there are very few I don't know of any barricades to our cooperation it's very intimate it's in all Fields it's in intelligence in counter-terrorism in in in everything in every field so this is part of our intimacy and our excellent relations uh you know another element that I'm I'm very proud to mention is the fact that adani won the Haifa Port Israel as only two Mediterranean Port parts and we are in a sense an island because our neighborhood is not a friendly neighborhood so our exit to the Mediterranean is crucial for us so we have two ports one of them is now in the hands of Adan it's a strategic asset for Israel very highly strategic and the fact that it's put in Indian hands he's paying money it's not in that but you are ready to deposit a strategic asset in India and hence for me it's a wonderful wonderful signal right", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-12", "text": "for me it's a wonderful wonderful signal right but uh you do get it that you're talking about uh you know it's something that we have in common I guess India and uh and Israel that we have we are in a neighborhood which is hostile uh and you are also aware that you know India is defense experts have said this that India is fighting a two and a half front War so Pakistan and China encircling India we have these two neighbors uh and they're hostile and they are uncomfortable with India doing this like what you're talking about it doesn't bother them that if we share water technology we share uh technology on drip irrigation or on food security and stuff like that but if as soon as it comes to anti-terror operations military and Espionage related issues it bothers these two countries does it at all uh come up in conversations in the security establishment in Israel no I think that the decision was taken to do full full cooperation with India as we have with very few countries in", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-13", "text": "with India as we have with very few countries in the world I believe again we don't see it against anyone when we work together on counter-terrorism or collecting information it's mainly for prevention of hostility towards us you and us Israel we are not doing it against anyone we are doing it in order to defend ourselves so anyone who's seeing that is hostility the problem is with him not with us right we have to be I think that if there is a lesson learned from Ukraine the whole Ukraine crisis is that when you're in trouble you better be self-sufficient and ready to fight for your own independence otherwise no one will fight for you so you know the lesson is be prepared be ready be tough project power in the sense that if you project power the sense the the chance that you will be attacked will be lower you know if you are perceived this weak the chances are higher this is in the Middle East at least for us the projection of power is very very important and to", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-14", "text": "the projection of power is very very important and to send a message that of the Terence of telling others don't mess with us it will be costly for you uh this is we're talking about a tough stance but I I am seeing a more flexible Israel today uh you know I mean your Abraham Accords like I think two years since uh that and uh your Outreach to the Middle East to the gulf Nations it's something that uh it's not contrary but I there's a flexibility to your foreign policy that one is it's complementary I would say on the one hand our enemies have to know that we are standing strong and Tall uh we will not tolerate we will preempt we will take whatever action is needed to protect our people and to prevent them from building capabilities to harm us in the future on the other hand as I said in in the beginning we are always with open arms to anyone who wants to come in peace and have negotiations with us and I must say that the", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-15", "text": "negotiations with us and I must say that the gulf countries have been having different kind of relations with Israel over the years but they were quite relations when they needed the defense assistance cooperation Technologies capacities and they also came to Israel but they did it quietly I believe that in all the Middle East one of the reasons that countries are more open to coming or publicly coming getting close to Israel is the fear of Iran this is a element that is uniting because you know you look at Iran and I know that India and Israel see things differently I'm not sure that India's interpretation of Iran's behavior is different than Israel the interests are different and the behavior of Iran or the joint interest towards Afghanistan or having ports together or trade or energy are are different but when you look at the Middle East most of us in the Middle East in the as you call it West Asia we see Iran is a destabilizing force we see them involved in Iraq in Syria in Lebanon with his but", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-16", "text": "in Iraq in Syria in Lebanon with his but through Hezbollah with the Palestinian organizations in Yemen with the houthis in Bahrain they tried and through the khutis they are disabled or trying to destabilize both Saudi Arabia and UAE by shooting at them so when you look at our region you see Iran is a big destabilizer and Israel is perceived as probably as the country which is the most proactive to prevent Iran from this kind of action and I think that this is one of the reasons that these countries want to be close to Israel there is a feeling I think in the sense in the world that we are living in a little bit of a mess there is no boss in the world there is no one or two powers that are running the world anymore it's a more messy world I think Isis the whole Affair and everything was all also the American withdrawal from the Middle East the Russians with Ukraine so everyone is busy with its own things and I think the the realization that", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-17", "text": "its own things and I think the the realization that these geographical boundaries is or even ideological boundaries are very fluid when it comes to terrorism it can affect anybody so just because you're a Muslim country doesn't mean that terrorism is not going to come your way it can come I think then uh there's there's this Awakening that they have to collaborate with other countries to protect their own uh you were mentioning Iran how do you see this new uh Street protests which are happening with regard to hijab I've seen very guarded uh statements coming from Israel saying that they support uh the the street movements but it's it's still do you think at a nascent stage the early stages I you know it's very hard to predict revolutions we know that the Iranian regime is very strong we know that there is a lot of opposition to the religious direction that it's taking the state and the religious laws hijab wearing being one of them that they don't like it and others we know all of", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-18", "text": "they don't like it and others we know all of that but still we cannot predict when there will be a flipping moment where there will be a revolution for the time being it seems that the regime is very very strong it controls also a lot of the economy and this is one of our fears from the Iran deal the jcpoa is that beyond the fact that we feel that it will not give enough assurances on nuclear and other elements of destabilization support of terrorism missiles and many others it will give a huge influx of money to Iran so they will get two to three hundred billion dollars immediately release of frozen assets Etc and this and they will start selling oil in huge quantities and this for us if we would think that this money would go to help the population we would be the happiest people but we believe that it will go help spread the the gospel this unfortunate Gospel of Shiite rule or dominance in the Middle East and this is our fear you know I", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-19", "text": "Middle East and this is our fear you know I I must remind everyone that during the days of the Shah Israel we had diplomatic relations we had ambassadors we had very good relations we had joint we built the pipelines it was a different country and a different reality for us true true what about turkey I mean you've uh on the sidelines of the unga now suddenly uh you know your heads of government have met turkey and your head so do you see a change a shift even in Turkey happening they made a statement on Kashmir of course they do that that every unga but it's a it's a little bit of a muted statement and I believe Pakistan is not too happy uh that you know erdogan didn't flash cards with Kashmir atrocities if I may put in quotes happening so how is it how do you see do you see turkey trying to recalibrate now its relationship with your country I think that uh turkey during the time of erdogan before erdogan we used to have very", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-20", "text": "of erdogan before erdogan we used to have very close relations very stable relations the Defense Forces on both sides were a strong element of these relations since erdogan has come our relations new ups and downs all the time and now I'm very happy that we have an up rather than a Down bottom line is if you look at the Middle East there are three non-arab states in the Middle East these are Israel turkey and Iran and both turkey and Iran of course are Muslim Israelis Jewish but three of us are known Arab potentially we should have been very close allies in the sense of being together and being different in the region but we are not because of political reasons erdogan I think has quite uh he himself has quite a complicated situation economic situation of turkey is not the brightest and I I think he is trying to recalibrate but not only with Israel in general is all the time trying to shift and see he's very flexible in foreign policy in the sense of looking for opportunities and", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-21", "text": "policy in the sense of looking for opportunities and and situations uh he can he can turkey can make a lot of money out of connection with Israel also on gas there is a lot of gas in the Middle East but they also have to settle with Greece and Cyprus because they have their own issues with them so energy will probably be The Peacemaker between I don't know you know that even at the worst of times most of our oil comes from azerbijan from the Baku Jihan through turkey to the Mediterranean there is a pipeline so even at worst of times it's never stopped by the way even at the worst of times Turkish Airlines who are making a lot of flights to Israel they do connections Freight they do everything they continued so the Practical side is going on the Econo economy is going on the problem was always the political which the ups and down mainly in the political and the defense that we in the in the past we used to be very intimate in defense cooperation", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-22", "text": "we used to be very intimate in defense cooperation and today unfortunately um we are not at the same status it's not like India or anything of the kind so you know it's a pragmatic foreign policy of trying to use opportunities I think of everyone the thing is that you know India the reason India would be so interested is because we've got millions of expat Indians working in the Middle East in all these West Asian countries so uh if if Israel improves its relationship and plays a larger role in uh West Asia whether it be in civilian matters or whether it be in political matters it you know everything improves the connectivity improves more Indian students can you know travel work so all this uh helps India so I don't you think that um it's something that benefits both countries Beyond than just the West Asian realm yes I will take it with your permission a little back I spoke of the hyphenation this policy of Prime Minister Modi of saying you know the Palestinian issues the Palestinian", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-23", "text": "of saying you know the Palestinian issues the Palestinian issue Israelis Israel we deal with both of them in parallel we don't not want to count on the other I think this is the basis that later on is in the thinking also of UAE Bahrain and then Morocco joining the Abram Accords that they said look the Palestinian issue is there we invested in the Palestinians a lot of capital both money and political capital and every investment and everything and nothing is moving there is also a problem of the I think of the Palestinian leadership and the feeling that there is no State Building so a lot is poured in but it's not taken in it's taken into daily consumption rather than State Building uh so this was the foundation I think this this this thought of the Abraham Accords and the Abraham Accords are the foundations for the I2 U2 and I think this is very important to say because I to YouTube which is Israel India Israel us and UAE the four of us which will work together as a", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-24", "text": "the four of us which will work together as a group of four to do infrastructure projects we already announced they were the establishing of the first meeting was when uh external affairs minister Jason Kyle visited Israel last October I was with him then in the visit and there was a foreign minister meeting and now when Biden President Biden visited Israel they did an online with Prime Minister Modi also joining of the leaders Summit and they agreed and they announced two projects in India both to be implemented in India one foot Farm Very Advanced Israeli technology uae-led and the second one energy Farms clean energy Farms wind and solar led by Americans also we will join with technology and everything and uh India I think it's the triangle that you can see in the Middle East is UAE I think in also in size in magnitude of economy size of course India is vast in size but the economy and the fact that there's so many influential Indians working in the gulf and especially in UAE in the economy of", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-25", "text": "gulf and especially in UAE in the economy of uuee it's a bridge and we will be able to work we are working together already is essentially going to be economic partnership uh it doesn't have an a security element to it or is there not no security element not not yet I don't think that it should have security element because if we start speaking of security each one has its own concerns as I said for example India and Israel don't agree on Iran and I guess that also the Americans don't agree with India on Iran and so if we're keeping that out if we will put in Iran you will put in your concerns and each one will put in it will be blocked and our idea is to be very pragmatic very economic not against anyone 1.4 for our people for our countries at the end of the day and for Humanity because we if we do green technology we are not only helping you Humanity but I believe that there will be also technology which will be relevant for Humanity", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-26", "text": "will be also technology which will be relevant for Humanity coming out of this cooperation because the capability is putting together the capabilities of our four countries yeah both human resources and and money can bring I think the world a good message I am going to come on Green Technology and agriculture Ambassador but before I do that of course it will be remiss if it if I don't speak about the whole Pegasus issue uh India exactly I thought as much that you're going to say that I don't know anything this is exactly the reaction we get from Indian government uh uh you know anybody we speak in the government so both you and India says we don't know anything about it but media reports suggest that India did buy spy technology and so did other countries by technology uh from Israel and the end users in some countries it's used to spy on on the opposition on media uh on people against the establishment so even if you don't want to talk about Pegasus if you can just tell us how do you see whether", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-27", "text": "you can just tell us how do you see whether end use is done or not NS also says I want to speak I I was joking that I was saying about Pegasus no I I want to speak about because I think it's important uh NSO the company which is not the only one in the world that has softwares of this kind right developed this software in order to combat terrorism and organize crime that is the aim in general it's a private company it's not owned by Israel but we applied on them export controls like in weapons so we see the potential in this system so they have to apply through us and we as a government we limit their ability to export first of all only to governments and also only to certain governments that we deem as responsible enough for using it uh this is more or less the situation whether people are taking this and using it in other ways I'm not aware of it I'm really not aware of it but the idea for us it you know we need", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-28", "text": "but the idea for us it you know we need to be step ahead of the terrorists at the end of the day they have the abilities to to eavesdrop on us in different ways and penetrate in Cyber Wars on us and everything we have to be a step ahead of them we have to be able to foil their attempts to attack and disrupt our lives and I think this is very crucial it should be used as it should be used but it's an important system and again it's a private company not Israel a private Israeli company but we put the maximum export control we can on this system when you talk about Terror networks you know if I can take you back it was in the 2008 Mumbai Terror attacks that most people in India woke up to the fact that India has been a Lagarde India has held back on taking a stringent and proactive measures to crush Terror networks we have been more India had been more reactive to uh you know to anti-terror operations till then it's", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-29", "text": "you know to anti-terror operations till then it's then that India woke up and many at that stage said why don't we cooperate with Mossad and I as you would be aware wherever you go I'm sure you get asked about your spy Network and your anti-terror operations and how it's it's legendary in India if I may say and there are many who are afraid of it who are scared of the mosad and say that oh that's not what we need in our country but there are others who hero worship you know people who read spy novels who watch Netflix serials um what do you have to say about how India has dealt with terror since 2008. I I don't want to say about India but I can say that our cooperation India and Israel Corporation counterterrorism as I said before is very wide very developed from intelligence gathering to Special Forces to reaction forces to everything we are working quite intimately together and I believe that what happened then probably will be more complicated to execute", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-30", "text": "happened then probably will be more complicated to execute today in the same manner and that attack will hopefully next time God forbid things like that happen the ability of Turk of of India to to foil or to will be better I hope so I believe so and I hope so you think systems in uh I mean your reading or Israel's reading of how India has learned from 2008 that systems are better in place now in India is that how you view it yes I believe I believe that there it's much more advanced systems the abilities the capabilities the responsibilities the reaction forces I think that everyone learns from the past the problem we have is Israel we always complain about ourselves that we are always prepared for the previous war 4 and the next four is always different so I mean you live in a state of constant conflict if I may say I mean I empathize with you and when I went to Israel I saw for myself uh I'm one of that generation who in our passports and that stamp which", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-31", "text": "that generation who in our passports and that stamp which said not valid for Israel it's it's you know uh in my first passage okay so I had that on my passport and when I got the Visa uh I remember very hesitatingly uh uh the Visa officer said that if you want you can take a paper Visa don't get it stamped because you may not be able to travel to the countries that you have traveled to uh if you have it stamped on your passport and I've I found that such a difficult existence to be apologetic of stamping you know most countries are arrogant about stamping uh on the on the on the passport and uh she said this to me and I said well if if a country will not give me a Visa sir because I have your country's Visa then I will not visit that country I'm fine with it so we were a delegation which went and some people uh took a a paper a paper visa and when we were done with that when we had visited", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-32", "text": "when we were done with that when we had visited your country we saw everything they said we made a mistake those two people or two or three who were there said we should have also stamped our passports we are proud uh you know we understand what the sentiment so while I got where you know you uh came from and it was a it was a very moving movement a moment at that time but uh sir I also realized that it is such a difficult period uh that you've gone through you've lived that through that period too does it does it move you to what you are today where you get accepted so willingly everywhere in the world yeah I think it starts earlier it starts my father was born in Germany my mother was born in England my father is a holocaust Survivor so my grandfather didn't survive many of the family didn't survive and my father came to Israel in 1949 just after the establishment of Israel he was 14 years old he fought until 1982 all the words", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-33", "text": "years old he fought until 1982 all the words of Israel and we grew up in a house where Three Brothers we grew up in a very Zionist house so my father came from a very Orthodox background but he left the Orthodox background and became a darling he retreated one thing for another I think and uh I grew up in this reality I mean it was clear to me that the duty is to go and serve in the military it's compulsory it's a conscription in Israel but it's people don't see it as usually they see it as a challenge it's a good thing not as a bad thing to go to the movie because we understand the need and the logic behind it it's not that it's a military that is sent to Fight 2 000 miles away for other people's worries our war and our ability to and I think that I grew up very clearly I was a parent I was officer in the paratroopers I did four years of military service my I have", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-34", "text": "I did four years of military service my I have four children one the youngest is now going into military service but the oldest two sons are officers they did very long service so they stayed beyond the compulsory time my daughter my third daughter did the same so she stayed more time and for us it's not a hard reality we grew up we grew up in this circumstances where other people come from outside and say how do you live in them no that's our reality it's not going to be a tougher than we are used to it we we are tough we are tough because if you grow in this circumstances that um that threat is imminent it's behind Any Corner in general we don't live in fear if you if you go to uh there are international research about happiness of peoples the Israelis are always in the 10 10 10 most happiest people in the world right but it's this you know the never forget movement like I understand that you know it uh it's", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-35", "text": "like I understand that you know it uh it's an experience that you live every day the Holocaust might be something of the past but you cannot because there are countries which don't don't accept that you exist so I understand where you come from but uh is there no closure is there no hope or you don't don't think that that's accused you know the the issue is that for Indians it's very hard to grasp anti-Semitism anti-Semitism doesn't exist in India never never existed but in Europe the Jews not only in the Holocaust third of the Six Million third of the Jewish people of the world were murdered but the Jews were persecuted over all over the years in all the countries by the Spanish Inquisition in Portuguese and in Russia programs and in every place the Jews were persecuted it was also a religious element and because Jews were always different were like a closed group of people dressed differently they were mostly Orthodox then and so you know there is something very psychologically problematic with the", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-36", "text": "know there is something very psychologically problematic with the attitude towards Jews in the world and I think that also towards the state of Israel as a Jewish state so it's over criticized it's like the standard set for Israel is a different standard to any other country in the world but we are we are okay with it because we are for the first time are independent we are able to protect ourselves and this is for us the the main the main element it's we understand that the alternative is worse because the history tells us that the alternative is worse so we are also very pragmatic we are seven million Jews today and we were 600 000 in 48 when the state was established and we are very pragmatic about the passport and the stamping on the Visa we understand that the Alternatives that people will not come because they will be afraid they will not be able to go to Muslim countries afterwards you were Brave you were not a maybe not a typical example and to date the situation", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-37", "text": "not a typical example and to date the situation is different and you see that Israel is one of the most successful economically most successful countries in the world the lead the world leader in Innovation but also by the way all of that is because we were sharper than most others because we had to be sharp we couldn't become lazy or you know we have to work hard because if seven million Jews with hundreds today we have Peace Accords with Egypt with Jordan uh it's not I mean the immediate neighbors I'm speaking especially also of course the others the second and we were surrounded by tens and hundreds of thousands with bigger armies and bigger abilities and and oil and energy and and numbers in the U.N you didn't have the resources either I've seen uh how with meager resources you've done I mean the I went to a water salination point and it was amazing and now you're you're taking it a step forward I believe the salinated water is going to be put into the Sea of", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-38", "text": "water is going to be put into the Sea of Galilee you you could could you explain about how this water Revolution because that could be a solution to India's water wars I will also take a little bit to step back you know when we started we we have been an agriculture country manufacturing country like India so our biggest known export was Jaffa Oranges we had the Citrus that we used to export and in certain stage we stopped exporting it not because we didn't need the money God forbid we all we needed the money Israel was a very poor country to start with but when we we were absorbing a lot of immigrants so money was needed but we understood that we are exporting our assets our assets our water we don't have enough water the difference between our country and many other countries in the world that we have a we pay a high price for the water water is not free and it's quite expensive so we understand that there is value for water places where you don't pay for", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-39", "text": "is value for water places where you don't pay for water you don't understand the value and you would not invest in infrastructure in order to make it better so it's also a cultural thing uh I've I've noticed many people uh in India you know farmers who think that since they own this land uh getting water from as low as you can get you can keep it's yours so the air the water and the the soil should not be taxed should not be challenged because it's yours so we we do tax and we do Challenge and that makes us more efficient because we understand that it's okay it's costly how do we save money it started with drippery education in the 50s when we were in agriculture so we invented the drip irrigation which saved a lot of water and also helped the plants because the plants didn't get too much water and not too too less so they got the exact amount but then we started doing reuse of water we reuse our water almost 90 percent of our", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-40", "text": "water we reuse our water almost 90 percent of our water are we used for agricultural level so we don't bring it back to drinking level because it's not economically wise we bring it up to the level of Agriculture the next country after us I think is like Spain in 20 something under 30 so we are at 90 almost 90 and the other country after us is in 30. so we reuse a lot of the water because it's a very economic way to save water and we do desalinization which is not an Israeli invented technology but it was industrialized or put into big magnitude in Israel and we have also next to Chennai the biggest the salinization Factory in India also by an Israeli company and today the idea of water is not anymore when we did the Oslo Accords in the early 90s one of the elements that we had to discuss in the final status agreement was the water issue because there is scarcity how do we divide the water today there is no scarcity so we don't", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-41", "text": "water today there is no scarcity so we don't have more rain but we have more more desalinization more reuse of water more smart agriculture Middle East countries asking for this technology from you because they are facing a crisis too of course we are we are first of all we are giving more water to Jordan we in the Peace Accords with Jordan we committed ourselves to a certain amount we are giving them more because we have from the salinization we do want to retrieve water into the into the Sea of Galilee to the kinet we do we did even before we had relations more so now with the gulf countries that we help the salinity they are the salinization in factories that were based on Israeli technology the company at the time was not Israeli per se but the owners so we found ways of how to to do business also when we didn't have full diplomatic relations and we're also doing in India by the way because the only place in the world where we have a water attache is in", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-42", "text": "the world where we have a water attache is in Delhi in our embassy it's based on the agreement between the two prime ministers and the bunnel can the new P we are doing a holistic planning of a region in bulldogan and Israeli companies doing it meaning what are the resources how we utilize them to the maximum what kind of Agriculture would go with it etc etc harvesting of water whatever is the play in every place you have your ups and downs what are the advantages and disadvantages so we are doing it and we are planning there we are is there any company Israeli companies are working and again not in the work itself we do the planning and the technology that can be utilized but usually the real work is done by Indian companies because there is no Advantage for Israeli government you know your country is it it's so versatile in in startups which are there you know uh how do you see the startup environment in India uh do they do they interact with Israeli companies and do you", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-43", "text": "they do they interact with Israeli companies and do you see more prospects for them first of all I think that we have to commend India for a huge huge uh step forward I think in the startup and Innovation field you have about 80 unicorns I believe or more by now very similar to our numbers by the way um and I think the cooperation has to be much better okay we part of the problem that we have is awareness in Israel because we started our startup looking westwards so a lot of the money coming in initially to our startups came from the US from funds in the us and our exits went through the us because the same people want you to to do the the IPO the exit in the same country where they reside and so that was our orientation I think that the orientation of the whole economy of the world is going towards Asia South Asia and Israeli startups are understanding that by the way it's not easy for them because they don't have resources in India you have to be more", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-44", "text": "don't have resources in India you have to be more patient it takes more time it's it's a it's a fact of life takes more time to do it I'm now going to move a little bit to the popular culture you know father is a huge huge success and it has a huge fan following in fact one of our uh one of my colleagues is such a fan of for that that's all he can talk about every time so uh tell me when you go to uh different parts of India do people ask you at all about whether what one hears about the security forces in Israel is true or is it overdone very popular here I hear it every place everywhere everyone speaks to me about it we even brought one of the actors they complained that it's not that the main character it's not doron who is the main character in the film but who played now you know people get their own haircuts right I mean no no haircut so it's not yeah people are really touched and now I understand that", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-45", "text": "people are really touched and now I understand that there is an Indian version of uh done I think around Kashmir or something there is a they're coming out with the Indian version of uh of and what about the whole the mythical image about or is it true all that they portray I I think that it's uh it's true we have these kind of units I I'm not sure that everything you see there being an officer in the paratroop is the idea of sending three people in a van into a hostile area probably they will be backing so they will do stuff like that but you will try to do it with ability of backing not to you know man human life for us of our soldiers since we are inscription country and everyone is connected and involved and you know it's a it's the people's military every loss of life is a huge issue in Israel so sending people into in such a trap it happens in very in in various there was a very heroic in Gaza five six people", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-46", "text": "was a very heroic in Gaza five six people that they had a shootout one died but they were able to get away but they were arabic speaking inside the Hostile area it's a very known thing of three four years ago but it happened a lot of things yeah yeah and your um in fact there are many who have drawn parallels between you know the new agneepath scheme that India has you know you must have heard about that and the parallels with the uh with your Defense Forces and uh do you see uh you know India benefiting from this agneepath scheme and do you see parallels with uh with what is happening you know what you have in Israel I can say that beyond the defense side of having conscription in general people going in big numbers into military service there are so many social values into it that I think India can also enjoy the same values and it starts with the fact that people feel connected to their country it's you know it's a paraphrase of what John John", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-47", "text": "you know it's a paraphrase of what John John F Kennedy said what can you do for you what you can do for you once you do for your country you feel that you're entitled also so the connection is on a different level but also high-tech the development of high-tech the ability because we are a high-tech military we take all the brightest at 18 year olds and we put them together the brightest of Mind brains we have in Israel to to work for the military for three years and do their work there and when they come out they they bond so well that many of them have yeah many of them have started startups together I believe this is the ecosystem of startups is very much connected but also as an immigrant Society or or very um you know also for India it's a Melting Pot system because everyone comes into the military they meet each other they meet so it here it would be I mean you you're going regionally but for Israel it's a very small country but very", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-48", "text": "but for Israel it's a very small country but very diverse so people from Moroccan origin or Orthodox and and the non-orthodox Ashkenazi from a big city they met meat for the first time and they speak they become friends they become you know in Brotherhood of military something amazing so it's a really Melting Pot element people get to know their country feel connected to the country high technology so there are many many I think advantages beyond the defense pure defense side so you know um your Twitter handle is extremely popular and you have traveled so much in India so tell me what are your impressions about you know the soft part the soft uh part of India is in the culture and the Traditions uh what you have seen yeah I'm now concluding a year in India and it was a laughing First Sight because when I landed here it was the first time my ever first time in India in South Asia and I've been to Australia in the past in business but really the first time I came", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-49", "text": "past in business but really the first time I came here and as I said the popular support popular love to Israel once you are you know Indians and Israelis are very similar in many ways I think that in the sense of to the family values of family in the center of life is a very strong element in both our countries and food is always connected so every family gathering is also a lot of food is is is connected to that and I think it's a love in First Sight we are really enjoying it me my family uh Twitter well I came here with 1500 I'm getting closer to thirty thousand okay and it's it's a short it's you know it's it's far from sufficient because it's you know it's if I would be now in a European country I would have thirty thousand I would be the king of the place but here in India the the you know the the market share the size the magnetism is so vast that I feel too small and too slow but we are trying to", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-50", "text": "too small and too slow but we are trying to do our best we are trying to communicate I think that today New Media are extremely important the the in India still the old media is is relevant in most countries it's not relevant anymore the written press the the printed press I think India is very rare in the sense yeah all media is thriving yes there are uh there is uh you know kind of an onslaught of social media but then traditional media has a niche I think it's just our numbers your numbers and maybe also culturally you are more conservative on on the press the way people many people see that but you know there are the good sides and the bad sides of the mode the good side of the fact is the fact that I don't need any more and here it's not a problem everyone is happy in the press to speak to me but in Europe it was more complicated and I don't need to press the traditional pressed in Europe anymore in order to tell the public what I", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-51", "text": "anymore in order to tell the public what I think okay which is a great the bad thing is that it's not only about me it's everyone is the same so we our our social media has become a market you know we are in a way I'm I probably it's my old age that uh people can connect to you easily right that's the best part of diplomacy yeah you don't need an intermediary anymore you go directly people can write to you and say yeah but you know I hope not all 1.4 almost 4 billion Indians connecting one time it will collapse for my language uh does it uh is it impeding when you travel in India no I I think that the people I meet most of them speak English it's very rare that I I need to be translation to be translated but you know the downside I think of modern media is really the fact that we started democracy started in Greece in the center in the Square Center Square of city and people would come the privileged people by", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-52", "text": "of city and people would come the privileged people by the way would come and Shout to decide on the decisions they would make the decisions for everyone and then we have we developed into a representation on more stable democracy everyone votes not only privilege but the city corner is still there every four years and we are back to the city corner and we are so big in the world today and coming back to the city corner it's a problem yes it's noisy but that's what India is all about isn't it it's not only about India but it's the whole world is like that yes and that's how populism comes I think of politicians how can they take long-term decisions when they will be criticized but instantly instantly on every decision they make a good decision I want to make tomorrow a highway from here to there so the greens will come the owners of the land would come against me the you know each one but have you noticed there's absolutely no criticism system of anything that Israel does on", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-53", "text": "no criticism system of anything that Israel does on the social media in the Indian sphere barely anything yeah I I we are privileged I'm not saying that it's it's a natural uh thing uh you know I mean I I at least don't see anything at all whatever steps you take uh it's never you know a seen from an anti-israel point of view at all I don't think you find that kind even in Israel in the social media I think that we're blessed and I said that I feel at home I felt at home from the first moment we are blessed because the popular supposed is there the political support or cooperation and friendship is there I went with Jason Carl to Israel to visit one of the best and I've been advised to three prime ministers Chief of Staff of the foreign minister I've done a lot of these official visits I think the visit of Jay Shankar was one of the best ones the intimacy the Open Talk the relations the gestures that were done the person the private", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-54", "text": "relations the gestures that were done the person the private gestures of leader to another I think these elements are like which you mentioned right at the beginning of this talk about the trickle-down effect that it comes from the top and and then when you know that the People to People connect is also working perfectly do you see more scope for tourism between India and Israel you know India is very attractive for Israelis generations of Israelis young young Israelis have this habit of going either to uh South America out to India is muchelleros or Backpackers here and they like to you know to have a year living in simple life of Backpacker in order to relax after military service and and regain their their fun and everything so tourism Israelis come here and now there are generations of people if you go to you went to Israel I don't know if you met people who when they were younger or young people have all done that done that yeah they know about they know about parts of India more than probably Indians yes", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-55", "text": "know about parts of India more than probably Indians yes and I hadn't been to those parts when they were asking so there is the the Israeli trail with the homeless trailers they called them yeah that they go there in big numbers I think that potential is huge hopefully we are going to have direct more direct flights because in Saudi Arabia now is allowing hopefully El Al to fly and then Air India will have more flights Halal we'll have more flights there will be quite many flights and I'm sure that many many Indians here on meet have the desire to go to Israel and in conclusion uh so you began by speaking about you know the trickle-down effect and about how heads of state and heads of government when they interact uh it sends down a message how important uh is is it for uh for our head of government and your head of government to meet and uh send these signals on a regular basis I think it's crucial I'm it's very unfortunate by the way that we have political", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-56", "text": "very unfortunate by the way that we have political instability in the sense that we don't have the same prime minister we're attending all the time it's very very important the relations because things are decided there and also the spirit of friendship that is coming and decision making from the leadership percolating down into the system it's very very important our aim is to have and we we had already four times the prime minister's visit postponed in the beginning it was over elections and the problems last time because of kovit because the prime performance prime minister Bennett contracted it's very important because there is very close friendship prime minister Bennett met prime minister the Modi in Glasgow and and I believe that it's important because it's it's the closing as I said in the beginning closing the circle it the people have already the sympathy as you mentioned also towards Israel and now the leadership shows that it has the same interest and when everything coincides together it's a perfect match so I we", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "1f7975625b14-57", "text": "together it's a perfect match so I we we are trying to push for more and more high-level visits we had our Minister of Defense here uh your ministers went to Israel and prime minister visit we are looking presidential visit we are looking so we are working on all of that look forward to more interactions sir in the future thank you very much for speaking with us thank you thank you very much for having me thank you for watching and listening to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash please like And subscribe in whichever platform you watched or listened to it namaste foreign [Music]", "source": "-Ft-_IHqNXM"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-0", "text": "aftab's family knew that there was violence going on maybe even drug smuggling maybe even drug intake maybe even womenizing wait maybe it's coming emerging what kind of man did they produce what is the responsibility of the parents of the boy I think tremendously negligent we are always talking about the grooming of the girls what about the Brewing of the boys why can't they be broomed if they misbehave like that when they grow there's a predictive relationship between alcoholism drug abuse and domestic violence we could have remained a Vigilant a fourth pillar of the government had we not gone political we could have remained that's how we were invisaging okay that would remain an independent non-political Force which would speak up of corruption anywhere say if I have a chief minister yes I would have stopped first of all that smoking coming from Punjab I find the current prime minister highly result oriented truly karamyoge if every bureaucrat whatever the responsibility is walking the streets", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-1", "text": "bureaucrat whatever the responsibility is walking the streets smelling feeling hearing seeing correcting Hands-On even for hour a day India would be different in next four or five years Namaste Jain welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash he strangled her to death and then chopped her body into several parts he stuffed those body parts inside a refrigerator he put her head into the freezer compartment and then one by one he started disposing of those dozens of body parts in the jungle when the body parts started smelling he would lighten agarbatti he brought other women friends into the house for months no one figured out till a friend got suspicious aftab is in custody shaddha's family and friends have to come to term with the fact that all her body parts may never be found there is no closure for families who have lost a loved one in such a horrific manner Indians are transfixed about the horror story of aftab punawala and shraddha Walker soon after", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-2", "text": "aftab punawala and shraddha Walker soon after the shraddha Walker episode three other such brutal copycat murders came to light in all the cases the Killer and the victim knew each other they are labeled as Crimes of Passion why is it that some murders gruesome murders just shake us to the very core why is it that most of us ask the same question why did she not walk away what drives a man to become a beast and not give out any signs of abnormality you would think that the police or reporters are accustomed to seeing such crimes of passion and it would not impact on us at least in not impact on us in an emotional manner but it does so I spoke with a police officer who knows Delhi like the back of her hand she was the first woman officer of the Indian Police Service Kiran bedi has worked tirelessly to reduce crime against women ma'am thank you very much for coming to the studio most of us are very very", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-3", "text": "coming to the studio most of us are very very disturbed even though uh you know as reporters and you as a police person would have seen so much of crime but there are some crimes which just we can't understand why some crimes are you know like people say why is it this crime more important and this aftab guys crime is one of that can you please explain to me that how did this happen how can a man chop a woman into pieces and then start disposing of those body pieces that why has this happened neighbors don't know there is no Trail for months on end how did this happen in 2022 look it's becoming evident that she was looking for help she was looking for help and the latest news is that she was dissuaded from pursuing the matter by the Man's family so where's France family we're not even talking about the Man's family she it hasn't revealed yet that she was coming back to her main family mother and father but it's also revealing that", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-4", "text": "family mother and father but it's also revealing that the mother has actually died out of that kind of yeah the trauma the trauma she's passed away something she passed away probably she didn't have much of a communication relationship with the father we don't know but another news research emerging is that the Father the aftabs family knew that there was violence going on maybe even drug smuggling maybe even drug intake maybe even weaponizing wait maybe it's coming emerging that aftab's family knew where is this family we're talking about the woman's family so I'm little wondering huh why haven't we connected yet with the this Man's family why because this man is a product of his family yeah just as this girl is a rebel in her own family the boy is a product of his family he's not a rebel he's not walked away I believe they went and stayed back also he's been connected and he's also made some things shifted something went wrong that the family shifted house why so I think that", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-5", "text": "that the family shifted house why so I think that stage is yet to come so it's not just a crime of passion which he's claiming now okay you know In the Heat of the Moment he killed her it's not a heat of the Moon certainly not it's developed over a period because it's clearly that she's been asking for help she's gone to the doctor she's gone to the dentist she's gone to a counselor she's gone even to a female counselor and the female counselor was told no the family is not helping families not encouraging pursuing the matter but Mom it's a very common thing you've dealt when you were in uh I think Westdale Western uh Delhi or something you were uh policing at that time you also dealt with so many crimes like this against women you brought down the graph when you were in the police uh crimes against women came down you must have seen so many sachins there maybe not as Macabre as this but brutal", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-6", "text": "maybe not as Macabre as this but brutal incidents you must have seen right look these are um cases if a woman has it's come to your notice you can do this crocin what you can do means minor medicine ah okay you can prevent it if you catch it early in this case she could have been caught early how how you know when I was growing up in service domestic violence act wasn't there correct United Nations came with this domestic violence act Etc it is I think right later but the time early there was no domestic violence is a crime yeah that's why you never had these crimes against women's cells they all came after the un uh convention yeah so therefore uh that time when police were sending these women away sending these women this is how women were being sent away in the earlier years before the domestic violence came up I'll tell you how I dealt with it now that is the woman in me or empathy me or compassion in me it can be a part", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-7", "text": "me or compassion in me it can be a part of the man's nature too I used to use preventive sections of law which I said very minor medicine preventive sections of law could have been used even here just use these preventive sections of law even that was called crpc prevention of breach of priests okay apprehension of breach of Peace this can be always used and this is a British made law crpc criminal procedure code British made law apprehensive breach of Peace section 107 151 you can even arrest the person but you can it's it's not a criminal proceeding it's a peace proceeding where you had listened to both the parties and bind them down to for good behavior but that's if the girl comes to the police she only went to the doctor to the dentist why didn't like isn't the doctor supposed to see domestic violence that it seems like domestic violence and reported to the police is there nothing like that Smita should have been done such things so we suspect because", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-8", "text": "should have been done such things so we suspect because a girl may not speak yeah the doctor could speak the police officer who got the complaint could speak the NGO could speak and they could go back to these preventive sections of law where both the parties would have been summoned and then heard and then bound down for good behavior now you know violation of that bounding binding down means a six months prison so you don't need a domestic violence act you can use these proceedings both by an SDM of the area or by an assistant commissioner police are there this is what I used to do earlier you'd be surprised my whole PhD thesis became domestic violence and drug abuse when I was doing my PhD I changed my subject because I saw rampant domestic violence and with no Solutions then I I studied and there's a predictive relationship between alcoholism drug abuse and domestic quality it's a predictive relationship in any family where you have alcoholism or drug intake", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-9", "text": "any family where you have alcoholism or drug intake very few go to sleep after this very few just go to sleep majority indulges in violence majority in the very few that's what proven research is showing so that means majority of the women are silently being abused and they are tolerating it in all odds of the night ma'am in this case the man is a very intelligent killer so if you were saying that in the possibility that that he has done some kind of drug abuse or alcohol abuse and it would have shown up in his blood yes right now he is so he's so intelligent that he has managed to dispose of this body's dozens of part of the bodies he is without anybody getting to know what 2 am Jana and you know he's done it in such a manner in different different places so he would have known he would have stopped consuming those drugs or whatever so that his blood doesn't show that by now addicts don't okay the habituals then he's", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-10", "text": "now addicts don't okay the habituals then he's habitual he's almost habitual he was dependent on regular alcoholism the uh womenizing getting more women I think that's also appeared that he probably had other women this is deviant behavior isn't it it's more the Deviant it's still 100 criminally delinquent Behavior okay and she was tolerating this nonsense why a maybe she thought where does she go back to who does she go back to the man had his home she didn't I think that's a key she was a very insecure woman that where is the support system why is it that shraddha felt that once she has rebelled against her parents one she has fought against her parents she can't go back and she can't even convince her friends she can't tell her friends and the friends don't find it in them to do anything so now friends circle not siblings not parents what is this then she went to her friends few friends but they were dissuaded to follow up further so she didn't she had", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-11", "text": "to follow up further so she didn't she had she tapped her old friends but the friends just said follow up I think there she was not allowing them to move further and now friends also were hesitant that they may not disturb her own personal life so they may intrude into personal life the fault lied only with her she wanted to hang on she wanted to hang on prob I do not know why she was wanting to hang on so I've thought she was an educated woman she had worked also correct she had a job also she gave it up so I think that's a problem with these these kind of young women is what is their priority in life is a priority only to hang on to a male security or to live together yet with some dignity and self-respect that's the question see it's okay perfect everybody looks for a lifelong companion a credible secure but here he she is saddled to an inch a violent man and she's constantly saying but why is she not walking to a", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-12", "text": "saying but why is she not walking to a police station see now of course we are looking back and looking back you makes you wiser but it was all preventable that's the character of the woman why does she become so weak need that she feels this is the Beyond and the end all of her life being with a man even if an abusive relationship and uh fortunately she doesn't have children I can understand a mother with children so she tolerates mother's many mothers do tolerate many mothers do tolerate for the sake of the future of the child they suffer violence it's a fact but in this case where is it is she just herself and she could go back to work why did she not she did not have anybody friend connecting with I think she was totally into this person's control yeah total control I think that's where she was suffering from I think the upbring the this total deficiency in the way these women grew up in education you only made them literate you only make these", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-13", "text": "education you only made them literate you only make these women literate yeah they are not educated because education means self-confidence again I'll come back that the parents and uh the society the the siblings the friends none of them give that uh that sense to the woman that you know this is not the be-all and end-all do not tolerate violence do not tolerate violence at the workplace do not tolerate tolerate violence in a relationship do not tolerate violence even of your parents I need to bring the parents bit also because soon after the shraddha case there's been another case where a woman was her body was found in a suitcase where her father shot her dead and her mother wrapped her body and put it in a suitcase and through it why because she had an intercast marriage so here is a case again you've given birth to a child what what pushes parents to do this seriously wrong with parenting in India any woman who succeeded in life go back she'll say my parents every woman's life has gone wrong", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-14", "text": "say my parents every woman's life has gone wrong she'll say went wrong in grooming she may not say it but went wrong in grooming it's a weak need weak grooming it's a it's a diff confused Mis signaling a woman reliability a girl is a liability even the brother thinks again you're a migrant in fact the biggest migrant population in India is a woman in India she's a migrant why she loses her identity loses her surname if she chooses to not keep it it changes her home well who's a migrant migrant is one who has to leave their own home and goes elsewhere there's a larger definite migrant they migrate here you are told you will migrate yeah so that means so I think this message foreign I remember when I was growing up others were tears and parents your parents I mean I need to bring that in your parents were phenomenal in the education that they gave the strength they gave you and your sister uh to be Achievers she was a", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-15", "text": "your sister uh to be Achievers she was a phenomenal lady too and uh you did so much in your career because your dad stood by you at every step of the way and you've told me this off camera about how your father played a role in your life and how parents supported you I'm sorry I'm making you emotionally no that's okay uh I owe all my life to them it's both mother and father combined you get 200 if you get 200 from them you add your hundred percent you're a 300 percenter here we are not girls and not even 100 percenters they're probably 70 60. imagine any one of us you and I like we are 300 percenters you were uh speaking to palki the other day I love that interview that woman is also 300 percenter those women who made a top in their lives and become now inspiration to others are 300 percenters and 200 percent of mummy dad and hundred percent they themselves they it's not the hundred percent is coming from society it's", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-16", "text": "not the hundred percent is coming from society it's from them how they dealt with society around them even when Society tried to pull them down question them saying and be envious of them they stood there hundred percent because they got 200 from their parents yeah so um what would you advise uh what would you advise Neighbors this you know that is also very important when nobody bothered to check I I asked uh people around and they say but you know I need to I need to dispel this rumor where people say Flats no that's not true it's not just in in people who live in Flats it's people who living in big houses too ma'am I'll give you a example myself which I I experienced for myself many years ago I got a call from the May the you know the the maid of a friend uh who called and said Okay She's cut her wrist uh there was a fight a domestic flight and she has cut her wrist in his blood everywhere so I rushed it", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-17", "text": "wrist in his blood everywhere so I rushed it was in the middle of the night her husband and she husband had consumed alcohol had a fight and she had cut her wrist so by the time her joint family by the time I reached this sister in law had taken my friend to a doctor so I was like why has she gone so far away because there was a hospital right in front right I'm coming to the point which you had made about you know how you need doctors need to make a point so I said why has she gone so far away which was like you know several kilometers away it gone in the middle of the night to a hospital so I reached the hospital uh the doctor's thing which was a small dingy clinic and these are very well-off people but they have taken their sister-in-law to a dingy clinic and brought home so then I came back this was the time when there were no cell phone so I came back home to see if she had come home and then", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-18", "text": "home to see if she had come home and then I just looked at her and I said why didn't you go across the road to this Hospital which is right there mulchand why didn't you go there so then the sister-in-law said so then I spoke to her parents I said this is what happened medical legal case these parents do parenting is a I think all of us parents go on trained we all become parents by a trial and error and look at the damage we do I think that's where parents who are far ahead parents of Visionaries parents who um believe in the quality of life believe in self-reliance man or a woman I think groom their boys and girls better I think we've been only talking about the girl what about the boy's family the boy's family what about this man of tabs family what kind of man did they produce did he not show signs of these deviances drugs uh dating Etc and womenizing I'm sure he's doing it during his time while he's there What", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-19", "text": "doing it during his time while he's there What did the what is the responsibility of the parents of the boy of the boy I think tremendously negligent we are always we are talking about I am so are we many talking about the grooming of the girls what about the Brewing of the boys yeah why can't they be broomed if they misbehave like that when they grow yeah because they're afraid that they might broom them they are afraid of the sons so I think unless we groom they are afraid of their sons they are saying they're afraid of their sons afraid of signs of leaving them leaving them by themselves because dependency Financial dependency emotional dependency so don't say anything against the Sun if the daughter-in-law would be daughter-in-law is being harassed by your son side with your son instead grooming is very bad girls being considered to be not being trained to be weak weak need not courageous and boys irresponsible irresponsible behavior is the grooming of our boys and", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-20", "text": "behavior is the grooming of our boys and our girls most of the boys who've grown up well and becoming great Partners in life are those who are groomed by parents man what about the neighbors why is it that that whole you know just a bit Constable is that thing there or not in Delhi it's one of the biggest cities you after Mumbai your largest population is uh Delhi Calcutta yeah where is that khabri system of neighborhood there was a very good campaign a while ago Capri his ring a bell there used to be a campaign by some NGO called ring a bell there can be two things ring a bell if you find something screaming out they said somebody said they'll protect your name is not a case registered it's information to the police it is the duty do you know it's a it's an it's a it's a duty by law to be informing the police of a suspected crime it's a duty of a citizen Citizens need to know that it's a", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-21", "text": "a citizen Citizens need to know that it's a duty to report crime or such incidents of crime to the police in fact you don't perform Duty you can be liable but we don't follow this up so ring a bell ring up 100. maybe when they were fighting they would probably switch on the shower so that you don't know he said loud music one of the interrogations reportedly's loud music yeah it's not loud music you are is it something being deuced yeah so I think ring a bell too much of water usage tendons water ten the landlord verification right ring a bell ring up hundred I think that would make a lot of difference you know uh landlord verification gets me to the point of this Mangalore uh killer you know that that bomber the pressure cooker bomber uh what he did was that he stole aadhar card and he changed the picture that's what the police report says he changed the picture and then he goes to Mysore and he rents a place with the name", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-22", "text": "Mysore and he rents a place with the name called Prem his name is something else he calls Muhammad something and he changes his name and that poor lady you know single woman or whatever old woman and she gives uh she's a landlord she gives him he stays out there he takes another stolen ID and he gets a SIM card right and he gets a SIM card from Chennai from there he uses that phone he uses this he sends PDF these are all smart alec criminals but it is so easy to forge to fudge identity in this country and there's no way of verifying how many of us keep a household helps that's it none of us go to a police station and say this is the guy will you please verify if his aadhaar is real or not who does that ma'am stop don't stop the watch you may slip on a verification because you've trusted straight away but if you see anything suspicious then call the hundred put the onus on the police for 100 it will take", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-23", "text": "the onus on the police for 100 it will take give them a lead though it means more more verification work more work for the police but it also means prevention for the policeman later on Investigation work look at the cost of Investigation look at the cost of energy time effort involving so many agencies in investigation of these cases it's Herculean effort and look at the cost of the court time of the court it's very very expensive on energy and time yes absolutely Court time lawyer's time money cost and your energy cost and effort costs so many agencies are involved so stitch in time is saving night ma'am you know Delhi like the back of your hand you have or your karma is this city though you went to puducherry and you worked wonders there too and I've read your book I've I've seen what you Did You released it I released the Hindi version yes but you you know I've seen you uh working out there too and fighting with people to getting work done", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-24", "text": "there too and fighting with people to getting work done because there is a general malaise in administration it's like enough times in your life you visited me yeah I visited you visited the open house yes the best part is you walked into the open house I saw the open house I saw how people found uh you know the confidence to come up and speak to you tell me that where is it lacking in Delhi why is it that people still don't have confidence open up the house open up make it mandatory make this mandatory that every government office shall open the door to their own office for an hour a day even an hour a day the opening itself is prevention you see believe in prevention it we made mandatory it's not visited hour 12 to 1 and somebody walks in and you're not there no you have to be there so you will declare your visitor hours be there whoever you are SHO SDM collector SP DGP dig secretary Chief secretary minister hmm that means us type meeting minutes you will", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-25", "text": "hmm that means us type meeting minutes you will have an open house so open house can be morning open house can be the lean out of the day it can be an open house but open house which you witnessed as a lieutenant governor when I had an open house do you know I knew I got to know my problems I knew my corruption issues and I knew the challenges that's why I could respond and I could go ahead and correct and prevent so the point is make it mandatory for all public servants Rank and file whether you're a politician whether you're a minister whether you're a public servant or a secretary highest rank or lowest inspector so and so visitors are you open house don't open the door mom and Delhi they're all busy with VIP security who has the time that doesn't matter the point is paying you you and I we are paid by the public to serve the public all others are so point is open the door for a visitor or even one hour a day one", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-26", "text": "for a visitor or even one hour a day one hour a day five days a week and if you do that opening itself is prevention now the Juniors that was prevention yeah see that was itself prevention who had said the it involves more than three departments they're not coordinating now they came to me because you see now that poor man one person can't say he couldn't dictate other terms I got the role of coordinator where more than one department is involved and I could bring them together and get things sorted out but as you chronicled what happens is when you do it then the the political establishment would get irritated there also you had the same problem here also is the same way there is one section here MCD kissing the admin I won't use terms because there are people outside this country who wouldn't know what MCD means and all because there are several layers of government but in case you are free not living in India and you don't understand this just to explain to you", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-27", "text": "you don't understand this just to explain to you that Delhi has several layers of government so there is the center also placed so the the lieutenant governor here comes from the center the the there is a Delhi government so we have several layers of government and that is where all the problem occurs as you know ma'am Delhi police comes under the central government under the home minister then you have Mr kejriwal who's the chief minister of indones people suffer this is what happens now who is one to go who are you who has who are the people going to say that who should shraddha have gone to should she have gone to the lieutenant governor should she have gone to the Chief Minister local police station she doesn't need to go anywhere else even a beach officer is perfect even a hundred call is enough that's what a citizen needs to know you don't have to go straight to the LG and the CMS go to the local police station go to 100 that's what", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-28", "text": "the local police station go to 100 that's what all right put it on Twitter put it on social media I'm being beaten I need help you tag Delhi police or tag the police today the police departments are on social media tag them you are putting the onus on them use social media to seek help right and what about friends and family should they put out on social media even if their daughter tells them don't escalate it like it happened in this case suppose the you know she wants her privacy she says no don't put it out or if you see like what happened in the other case where the parents uh were you know killed their own daughter should the neighbors turn around and say that this this set of parents is ill-treating their daughter why not it's a duty because that ill treatment is going to lead to Serious consequences it's not a it's not it's not gossip it's crime prevention how does crime prevention happen unless the citizens cooperate unless the citizen are forthcoming", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-29", "text": "the citizens cooperate unless the citizen are forthcoming however it's now the responding police how it deals with it with sympathy with empathy with mediation right with action every situation will need its own remedy everybody doesn't need a dunda and everybody near doesn't need a forgiveness it is according to the that's why doctors see the patient and then prescribe it's a prescription and that's a security prescription which is the expertise of the law enforcement agencies and they can call a mediator they can call a counselor they can ask an NGO to link yourself there's so many options correct like ma'am uh you just recently said and I'm quoting uh we do not know the extent we do not know the variety of the problem yeah we do not know which state is the most vulnerable we do not know why women are not using the domestic violence act we have no research on how the ACT function ma'am who is this we firstly I need to know who all are we uh which", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-30", "text": "I need to know who all are we uh which is like is it the government is it we as people we is it who is it families and and then you need family families families do not know families need to know well what are the what what is Family Violence now I'm looking at larger Family Violence families need to know Family Violence what is the pattern of Family Violence sometimes even alcoholic fathers or angry fathers even if they're not alcoholic beat up the children so what happens to that or there is a male member in the family who may be a distant relative or close attached at uh uh abuses the the child in the and the family protects it it's all Family Violence so I think Family Violence the pattern of Family Violence extent of Family Violence the level of Toleration response to Family Violence the usage of domestic violence Act I think needs to be understood and read through but we need to regularly educate our people as citizenship through ptas through RW associations", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-31", "text": "people as citizenship through ptas through RW associations the resident welfare associations could should take this up as education as a part of ptas RWS that's where everybody panchayats what about panchayats you have a sir punch half of 33 percent are women what about they being aware of what their rights and responsibility see those these these key heads if they are trained to understand what is Family Violence and there are training programs that's their Duty teachers faculties laws are this though and by the way there's no social audit I've been saying there's a social order to understand I do believe we are doing such audits we are doing portion audits we're doing employment audits we are doing skill audits we're doing so many very interesting audits under centrally sponsored schemes to understand where do we go technology audits startup so we're doing many many audit surveys you can whether they're governmental or non-governmental what about a social audit on to miss Family Violence why not and let us understand which", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-32", "text": "Family Violence why not and let us understand which state is the most Progressive and which is the most regressive on Family Violence I'm again going to quote what you just recently said you said I'm talking about Family Violence where the woman is the victim where a man has victimized her or a woman has victimized her let us let it surface we're all talking generically uh we need to become specific so that once we know the specific answers we know a disease we know the problem automatically Solutions will come strategies will come policies will come that makes sense to me can you tell me just roughly if there is a road map as to how we can get or how a government can get specific thank you for asking this every University can take up a project every University is actually measured by what kind of research have they done they are related how much of social engineering research have they done it's called social engineering in this social engineering one question one question if you were are you suffering from valid", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-33", "text": "question if you were are you suffering from valid domestic violence because even mental harassment is domestic violence according to the definition of domestic violence right even she being refused to connect with her family is part of domestic violence definition even she obviously demanding going back and demanding thing is part of domestic violence making a snap of family relation or wanting to support a family member because it it's even economic taking away a forcing salary is all under definitions of domestic violence so we could say first of Allah question project from universities Universe every Law School every University colleges Departments of social welfare department of criminology they can all do these projects you get to know from from students whether they're mothers are victims so then we rate then we decide the pattern let these become public they put this on the website but I want also a university let's do a national survey today's uh I just now read United Nations Secretary General has said every every minute 11 women are becoming violent", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-34", "text": "has said every every minute 11 women are becoming violent domestic violence victims in the world that's what he said is Israel in the papers today he's also talking about all right if you're talking about then what's what's wrong why does the U.N also not declare a whole Nationals International even rate countries even rich countries so University and you don't need money for this yeah take this up as internship projects and what about National I think a national body National commission for Women rights National Human Rights Commission these are National bodies these National bodies can go about doing asking and funding at home accordingly fund agencies recently I've noticed a national commission for women is promoting and funding seminars on women police stations why not let's do this as a Next Step let's rate and see where are the women being victims of domestic violence maximum rates that state and shame the others yeah rate them rate the ones who are doing well and shame the others and then but it's not naming and shaming only I", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-35", "text": "then but it's not naming and shaming only I think we need to strategize and strategies could be the following education grooming parenting workshops but the other thing is about digital footprint mostly people are always in touch with each other through WhatsApp groups and all but uh here what happens is that he managed to fool many people that she's still alive it's only when they said that somebody noticed that for a long time they haven't been in touch and they found something suspicious it's the duty at least I feel it's the duty of friends siblings and all that if you find somebody going Silent not talking it's necessary to speak but I feel that but coming from you would be a a stronger advice isn't it parents should never abandon their daughters even if the girl has walked away never abandoned daughters why daughters need this watch they need connectivity but parents should not I think that's a mistake families make sure I think that's where father abandoned her it was an abandonment", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-36", "text": "where father abandoned her it was an abandonment by the she has a brother too yeah they're abandoned and it's just a friend who connected hey what happened on social media she's silent Etc why not family why did the family abandon her the primary responsibility of a security of a child is of the parent once you become a parent whether you like your child or not now question is how do you maintain a contact it can be through a neighbor through a friend through a relative once you become a parent also these ego troubles that happen there are many cases where girls go against parents wishes and get married yes all right parents are angry okay so they stop talking and the girl gets upset that okay now I severtise and many times men ask their wives in such cases to sever ties with the parental home that's when all the trouble occurs is when the girl feels that you know somebody you've known for 20 25 30 years of your marriage of your life you can just severtise and", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-37", "text": "marriage of your life you can just severtise and then rebuild with an another set of family and they will trust you they will look after you all your life and you can trust them all your life sometimes those things don't work the earlier safety net was also important I think these are early signals this is what has to be groomed in her upbringing that you will move into you will choose into another home you choose to it's your choice to move into another home you will choose to stay on with another person but there are lines which must be drawn Financial Independence parents relationship so I think this kind of yes so he knew about it staying connected early signs call the friends look I want my relationship because now I have children yeah but it's your duty friends please that's when she does plans either she dies every day yeah or she commits suicide ma'am you were also uh you know IG in uh tehar in the prisons uh thing you've seen hardened criminals does this case seem like one", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-38", "text": "seen hardened criminals does this case seem like one of those that you saw out there and like you know you were there for prison reforms you faced a lot of criticism also uh when you were there when you said that your prison reforms you know because doing anything new means fighting an entrenched system so tell me how did you tackle that at that time when you saw these kind of really hardened criminals did you see a ray of Hope did you see things that human beings can change I absolutely to them I put them in isolation Wards to make them reflect and gave them counselors so I isolated them and they took me to court saying why they she's given us a human rights violation isolation quota filled the the it's of the up to the Supreme end or the IG to decide how you lodged lodging is yours but my lodging was isolation was not a VIP treatment it was for reflection understand what you've done with the because he is one day to go", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-39", "text": "done with the because he is one day to go the point is why was I doing prison reforms for the reason one day they have to go back to society let me prepare them for release so that they don't come back yeah so this man was also if he was to go back then I'm it's a reflection and I tell you they broke down on isolation and in the isolation this they slept on that same blanket they got the same fruit they got isolated and the same food no extra that is what it was real you say prison reforms in fact I gave them the real imprisonment then when they were isolated and but also gave them a counselor and give them books to read so they were also counseled a major general retired or a counselor for these gangsters and these hardened criminals and in isolated what a major gender volunteered uh during that time it's a part of my book and he used to come and counsel themes but same carpet same blanket same", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-40", "text": "and counsel themes but same carpet same blanket same food same person nothing extra it was true imprisonment for them so that they realize what it is to commit such a crime and vipassana that's another thing and also automatically then we took them and that's when they melted completely to witness themselves that's how they it surfaced from within them but that was a later stage first isolated reflection counseling reading then reform and then Earth come back to meditation okay and you're you're a great believer in meditation yes I am you've written about it you've and you've experienced how it can change a person completely certainly the dry cleaning of the Mind dry cleans your thoughts try cleans your actions it's a dry cleaning of the mind so if you're looking for deletion and dry cleaning and deep decongestion that's when the dry cleans off all the negativity and starts you make place for positive thoughts but then you're also reading you're getting counseling you're getting bhakti in", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-41", "text": "you're getting counseling you're getting bhakti in your this thing the whole environment is a nobling the environment changes you and it doesn't matter which religion you are no that doesn't matter because mind thoughts are uh and agnostic yeah it's negative and positive things are diagnostic you may believe in any faith but thoughts are negative or positive that you face resistance in uh in the prison when you stride yes there was a community which said yoga would change our religion I said you try you try and see because it's all about Mind Body Union so it's all about you and your mind and body they accepted it later but they had to be explained this is 25 years ago before yoga was big you were doing it in in tihar ma'am the other thing I remember I mean this is from my childhood I remember uh I even studied started studying I remember I was one of that generation I'm sure there'll be many who will remember this I I wanted to take the IPS just because of Kiran Medi let", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-42", "text": "take the IPS just because of Kiran Medi let me tell you this you're you're legendary you would have been very good [Laughter] foreign baby because there were no cranes to remove badly parked cars when I took over his DCP traffic and the roads were clogged broken down buses broken down trucks and there were no cranes to remove them so people would divert people would get jammed up so I said what's the solution this is Asian Games Asian Games time there's a solution they said man we don't have cranes now I can't wait for a government sanction and the money to come so I hired all the Delhi private crates I not hide them mobilize them summoned them mobilize them made them earn for the cost they're picking up the car and we did a traffic fine it was a win-win situation and it wasn't that there were so many cranes this is what 1982 or 83 or something whatever was the crane private crane yeah I they were on my list and they they", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-43", "text": "yeah I they were on my list and they they came in because they were also lying idle Japanese here they were not here every day they were doing business and that is what helped I did not wait for government to buy a crane I mobilized Support called someone them and then put microphones on them cop on them announcing we are coming remove otherwise you're done so we gave people a chance to including government officers see the message was fall in line it's we need clear roads for people too so regulation of traffic was my priority people must save time traveling on the road because you get clear roads unobstructed roads so that's how we cleared out orgaziabad borders Etc all by one crane just positioning one crane on ghaziabad Border at that time and the truck was afraid to lose because a truck maybe kundi lag jayegi and he's losing business they all cleared my roads by just one crane yeah but that that's your trademark ma'am that you know you believe in this discipline at", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-44", "text": "that you know you believe in this discipline at all costs you know I've seen uh what you did about uh defecation open defecation and how you fought uh you know that it should not happen in uh when you were there in puducherry and it was like uh no excuses and I remember lots of people were angry with you because you took the camera and you said I will take photographs and they said oh look at this she's privacy so tell us about that how you did that sanitation is the first thing for any City management and any person worthwhile and I'm so glad our honorable prime minister talked about toilet toilets from the red Rampage of the Red Fort had he not done that had we not had toilets in place by then covert would have been a bigger disaster because where do women people go actually toilets had just been finished up built getting built and covered stuck people had toilets in their own homes otherwise where would they have gone and the disease", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-45", "text": "homes otherwise where would they have gone and the disease would have spread even more had they been all around all this excrete around I think we just made it in time for me sanitation comes first before work comes it has to be clean surrounding green surrounding and healthy surrounding I think that's what makes you work and also they were not willing to clean those toilets you remember when that happened you documented that also and that how you got a you know some girl came up to you and said macaroni that's right so I think that's what happened but it worked when we showed this kind of Relentless determination just as you saw prime minister's Relentless determination they funded it CSR came a lot in making toilets God put social funding um Government funding state government States funding and determination actually helped and it India has become safer because of this otherwise we would have been seriously in the pandemic still if the toilets and all excrete around because flies mosquitoes", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-46", "text": "toilets and all excrete around because flies mosquitoes are all getting you infected but now you don't see that it's come under huge control and water polluting what about water pollution because they were all sitting on the on the sides of these lakes and the same lake is going for recycling link yeah so it's it's made a lot of difference so unless you make it into a passion and it's not it's a mission I can't stay without it in fact my first second day in Raj nivas to Grand Canal of puducherry which was dirty which is Iconic for puducherry it was the second day of as left uncover why because I found the stink coming to rajnavas itself stink of a grand canal of carrying sewage water whereas should not have and when I started that recovery and who started it it is a local MLA who came to me saying ma'am can you come to my this is my constituency I nobody's listening to me MLA said nobody's listening", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-47", "text": "nobody's listening to me MLA said nobody's listening to me ma'am I need you to visit it ma'am you were talking about uh stench dirty water lakes uh that was in puducherry yeah you live in Delhi you've seen the state of the yamuna it's so filthy you've seen and you've lived here in the month of October in the month of November when you cannot breathe the air you can actually smell you can see the soot in the air that we are all choking away but your former colleague your former friend is the chief minister foreign but what I think Delhi my city our city needs is Night Cleaning Night Cleaning Night clean body Cherry had Night Cleaning we used to do two level cleaning we used to do a 10 a.m cleaning and we used to do night cleaning so when people walked the walk to the streets they went clean we did it twice it spent money we spent money we got it so Night Cleaning earlier of course there was night cleaning but they", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-48", "text": "earlier of course there was night cleaning but they were not doing their job here now we're watching it and getting it done so they delivered we had the Manpower we had the contract with swachtha Corporation and we were paying the money but the money not well spent now money totally spent because of supervision supervised supervised get on the roads yourself see things for yourself the municipal Commissioners the deputy Commissioners should take rounds photographs put them on their Twitter handle and say night cleaning and also wherever you're finding a dump because you have Manpower even in Delhi they just have to deliver better one so introduce Night Cleaning quickly and secondly is that we need to introduce a home a home digesting bring in a quick technology to do home digesting of particularly the soft waste right order recycling so it can be even rwas because some of them are now trying but very few make it mandatory every rwa has to handle its own issues of garbage management recycling plastic recycling um soft", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-49", "text": "of garbage management recycling plastic recycling um soft organic waste once once you have this technology third find the technology to do dump management quickly you'll recover crores of rupees of land but also stop pollution look there are Simple Solutions but the key is Municipal commissioner the deputy Municipal Commissioners the locals the inspector date everybody walks the streets one hour in the morning how dare we used to do that I'm not saying something which is it's worked when the officers walk the streets they take photographs take accountability call the local area person call the rwa so I think citizens participation citizens responsibility with these two three steps Night Cleaning digesters organic digesters they're simple they're easy RWS responsibilities the local area panchayats right and then the large dump management for larger technology to start digesting it and make manure out of it power out of it gas out of it it's green gold these dumps are green gold if you want to look at it they have green gold because they", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-50", "text": "to look at it they have green gold because they can be harvested for energy and manuring and many other components Elements which they have uh ma'am you uh you have uh so many ideas on uh you know how to improve improve our Urban centers I won't even go into whether it is city or town because you've lived in both you've worked in both uh and you have these ideas uh I know you uh you don't want to talk politics and you don't want to talk specifics but you did try and get into politics at one point of time and then you bid goodbye to it can can you still do things without being a politician can you still bring about change oh Administration can completely do it civil servants can do it What stopped civil servants to walk the streets what bars the cinema most the left and governor of Delhi is doing this but if he's doing it what about others he's doing it and that's where he's driving the change by the way what about everybody else there", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-51", "text": "the change by the way what about everybody else there are lacks of employees in Delhi delhi's has very high population of public servants but you're seeing how much of resistance he's facing from the ahmadmi party even though the LG is material of that change anything Innovative original new will also get him credits well walk with him walk with him Nothing Stops you go with him you're talking about the chief minister why does the local Minister go with him there's a competition why are you competing he's playing his role you play your own why don't you go with him it will overnight change the city of Delhi stop competition stop looking for only credit work for Combined City clean clean City so but if the MLS don't want they only want to compete for credits all right what about public servants they're not competing it's their duty to do it they're getting caught they say between the Rivalry of they're finding excuses these are excuses they have their own duty to perform Smita they have their", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-52", "text": "their own duty to perform Smita they have their own duty to perform they must do it for a bump fearlessly so if you were chief minister I know you don't want to get into politics and you don't want to talk politics but if you were chief minister what would you do for Delhi today one about the crime situation which we began the podcast with one was that and two to improve the living conditions of people in Delhi what would you do you say if I've a chief minister yes I would have stopped first of all that smoking coming from Punjab foreign it's not a question of acceptance failure it's not a question of asking for time it's like valuing people's time and being very anxious and angry why is territism but the question is that's that's uh you don't even feel uh hypothetical name ma'am because that means that you're not delivering on the promises that you made to your electorate isn't it if if it was made that we will give you", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-53", "text": "if if it was made that we will give you clean air clean air is the basic thing right to give to your electorate clean air is the basic health today yeah in fact Delhi is becoming unlivable because you can't breathe my lovely South Delhi house I could sit in the balcony and open the windows Etc and doors and breathe fresh air I can't in fact half of the bread is full of dust it's full of uh it's unbelievable now city is unlivable and whatever we can do collectively individually and collectively regionally as an NCR we must do it as soon as possible everybody together because it's people's lives children's lives children's future their outdoor has stopped children's outdoor is gone for a Stars where do they go walking walking on the track how can they go running and jogging on the streets how can they go cycling how can they go playing and the schools also will say indoor indoor because it's all outdoor is full of dust which is a", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-54", "text": "all outdoor is full of dust which is a fact I think we are affecting the next Generations that's a number one issue at the moment for the city and if the person concerned has a control in the neighboring then that is a major source also even if it's 20 even if 20 I don't know the research but even if it is why not why not because that's also under your control you have a dual responsibility yes so what would you advise him to do what exact steps would you tell him where should he Focus as a delhiite he's your chief minister to forget about what happened in the past he's your chief minister too what would you tell him to do to camp in Punjab camp in Punjab and get it done camp in Punjab I understand the research showing that the chief minister of punjab's constituency was the biggest polluter why can't each MLA of that place camp in their own constituencies camp in their own constant take charge and take responsibility", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-55", "text": "camp in their own constant take charge and take responsibility each one of them camps there and saying this is how you have to be rated put the onus on each elected representative why not and the panchayats them and the panchayats will still happen but what is needed for the farmers provide them that I believe there was money available I believe there is a Machinery available I believe there's a technology well but I believe put it together but Camp yourself there monitor on a regular basis but put the elect the elected representatives who've been elected whoever it is whether it's of one party or the other each one of them is responsible that's what the role of the country City's chief minister is go camp there during the before it starts and go Village to Village Walk the village now this is not for Gathering votes it's for People's Health that will bring you votes man we discussed about what the advice you would give a chief minister now what would you advise the the", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-56", "text": "chief minister now what would you advise the the commissioner of police of Delhi to make Delhi a safe place I do not know his style of working right now but I would like to see him more visible I see him driving technology changes very well putting systems in place very well I noticed that futuristic data management and predictions on crime very well because that's coming in the newspapers so my mind is only related to what's coming in the newspapers but I wanted to become I like to see leadership more visible that's exactly exactly what I said earlier if the leadership is more visible which means that he finds time to connect to the grassroot he can pick up a police station of the day right and he said oh I'm so busy yes you are exceedingly stressed out I know that but do not go away from the ground level the connect with people the connect with the people connect with not only the people but his own Rank and file they cannot see you the constabulary doesn't get", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-57", "text": "file they cannot see you the constabulary doesn't get to see you visit the police stations look at their premises look at their amenities look at talk to them and find out how they're performing listen to them hear them out take our ideas so I would like to see him at least three times in a week visit police stations directly at announced or unannounced time would be good to have announced time give people a chance because you know overnight and then don't declare which police station will you go anyone okay surprise once yeah anyone but commissioner is going to be on the on the Move there's probably a reason why ma'am that forces got together and made sure that you did become commissioner I still remember the time I'm in uh God bless his soul he's no longer there Mr dudwal who is Junior to you uh became uh Commissioner of police and you didn't uh what did you feel at that time like you felt anger or you felt can't fight the system anymore", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-58", "text": "anger or you felt can't fight the system anymore I moved on immediately I didn't hang on I didn't complain I didn't fret and fume I moved on immediately and I had my own plans and Destiny opened up many other doors for me I moved on but it was a huge loss because I trained half of the Delhi police wig as joint commissioners special commissioner training it was a very strong missed opportunity both for the force collectively and myself but and I'd grown up with the force so I know it but I moved on I didn't threaten few if you digital did I should complaint you moved on and upkeeperi came after that sudar basus see what a great opportunity that was where I became a Citizens judge yeah when I started to see it was not a Citizens Court you played many roles I mean you didn't it wasn't as if you you know when went away from the scene there was always something or the other that you were doing um becoming uh you know you", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-59", "text": "that you were doing um becoming uh you know you moved even into that uh I'm going to tell the viewers that ma'am is dabbing on this typical uh Kiran bedi mam where she's got an injury but she did not stop and she didn't say yes in spite of the injury she's sitting here with me for almost an hour and and that's why I have I'm a huge admirer of Kiran bedi man um you tried uh you know you've always been connected with the people of this city uh and not just City I mean I've seen you in puducherry too it's citizens of the country also because it matters for you India against corruption was one you know where you just felt very seriously that corruption is is breaking the back of this nation and we will not be able to move forward tell me about your experience in that how it started why you got joined in and why you didn't just gave up I went for a cause cause was met because we did a successfully", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-60", "text": "a cause cause was met because we did a successfully achieve exposure of the extent of corruption which was prevailing at that time whether it was Commonwealth Games whether to other Society in Maharashtra yes whether it was 2G right or wrong but Mass corruption we successfully exposed it to the extent and media took on and explained it very well and we also lobbied for the lokpal bill at that time we did get the ACT finally but without enough teeth Etc that came in later but we did we could put the issue on the table straight away and made it a national imagination and National dialogue I think I fulfilled my role as a citizen of the city as is because if I had not joined then I could have regretted later that that time while I speak a lot on television Etc you chickened out who got you in into that movement was it another's entry okay yeah it was Anna Anna and there were many other people joined in at that time so Anna was the main Force because Anna stood", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-61", "text": "time so Anna was the main Force because Anna stood for like the the modern gandhian you know he's that's how he emitted that for me it is a nurse presence which made it so Noble but then what happened then it returning political it started it uh over a period when it became so beautiful so widespread uh the intentions kept started to change but without political um you know muscle should I say or without a political Direction could uh the India against corruption have achieved more like a fourth pillar of the government had we not gone political we could have remained that's how we were invisaging okay that would remain an independent non-political Force which would speak up of corruption anywhere not aligned that's how we were envisioning that this will remain uh independent Citizen's voice which will talk about corruption or illegality anywhere so that means it's a citizen's voice which continues to be together that's it that's what that was the vision at that time so Anna also believed in that", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-62", "text": "vision at that time so Anna also believed in that position I'm not believed in that Anna would have stayed on to become a citizen's voice had we remained a citizen's voice also would have remained in the in the group had we remained a citizen's voice so what you're telling me is that more people wanted it to be apolitical yes yes that's what every the whole everything was considered uh trusted and believed that it remained apolitical then why wasn't it this Wing stronger as compared to the people who wanted to make it it was sung away it was completely swung away and Anna walked away so without under there's no movement but you aren't the kind who walks away and if if you walk away it's out of it I've seen you walking non-acceptance it was not acceptance it was not acceptance it wasn't for me that was not acceptable AV stood up for an independent voice to become a citizen's voice against corruption and that's how when it was now going", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-63", "text": "corruption and that's how when it was now going to be used for a purpose and it was being hijacked away uh abandoning Anna it was a different issue but didn't you see the signs of it being believed when the signs had come that's how the cracks cracking had come and that's where the distance started to happen and then you supported uh Mr Modi in 2015 I think if I'm not mistaken you endorsed him openly and you supported him and then Mr jaitley thought that you would be perfect as a chief minister of Delhi when somewhere in that campaign one could see that your heart was not in it that you you just felt that this is not it when was that moment because that was not me even when Mr jaitly asked me suggested that I do consider this it was on one very soft point saying Kiran you are belonging to Delhi it's your responsibility to now serve Delhi but I said sir I don't know I I'm not oriented towards electoral", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-64", "text": "don't know I I'm not oriented towards electoral politics I have no transaction in my mind I transform things but I don't transact I don't ask so sir he says you leave politics to us you fight the election as a delhiite and you administer the agreement between me and Mr j3 was very clear I would serve as Administration and administer and the other things so a agreement was I will not offer a penny I will not raise a penny so I no money give and take anybody came for anything said go to the headquarters so my clear was I've got nothing to do with political money and I've got nothing to do with politics I will serve I was administer which was my strength so he said yes you take care of this we'll take that was the agreement and that he wouldn't attack uh Mr kejriwal and the Ahmad that's why should I up that why should I see I have to say I have to say many times and they say would you give this free would", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-65", "text": "times and they say would you give this free would you give this free I said no I will look at the budget and see if the budget prevents I never said yes you don't believe in freebies no I look at the budget if I made a budget and it's needed and I can raise the money I can budget why not if I can budget but I won't change the heads to I won't do it as a pre I won't do it to lure I you need it I'll give it to you you need it I'll give it to you but I have to budget it I have to earn it and I've got to let the people know you also have to contribute so I think that was my nature so I was very upfront even when foreign [Music] [Laughter] so didn't the BJP tell you that at least though Raman was handling my she was so nice in her kitchen and rolling the rotis so they said ma'am it is desired that you did this I said forget it forget it", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-66", "text": "that you did this I said forget it forget it I'll not give you anything but I don't do I get it done is what they saying he said no no ma'am you won't do it no ma'am you won't do it this is not you so he was actually coordinating so beautifully she was respecting my authenticity so I was just remaining who I was so for me it was not saying lure of this position it was the responsibility of The Possession and you said you bid goodbye but that was it that was the agreement moved on you moved on you would not you would not like to get into electoral politics ever it's not by Nature electoral as I said it's not by Nature I'm not I'm very good in if you've got a constitution you got the law you got the rule you got the man part you got the budget and you have got the responsibility I'll get it done but not say okay I do this for you now you do this for me so tell me of all", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-67", "text": "you do this for me so tell me of all the tenures that you have done from from crimes preventing crime against women in in West Delhi to traffic to uh to your jail stint which is the one that you enjoyed the most or you felt that you you managed to make a lot of difference lieutenant governor pondicherry yes okay it was first of all almost nearing five years there was no tenure which I did for such a long time all others were very short though we made modifications even in all these including two years only tihar but you still remember it so only two years but uh here I lasted four years and almost nine months and it was so fulfilling every day but I tell you I gave it all there was no Saturday there was no Sunday there was no night or day it was so fulfilling that and it was so rewarding and I could see people benefiting completely happy and very grateful a very popular I think it was most fulfilling for me also because I went", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-68", "text": "was most fulfilling for me also because I went to it with maximum experience also ma'am you've met with so many prime ministers uh including Indira Gandhi and with Rajiv Gandhi can you tell us a little bit about your experiences your interactions with prime ministers I find the current prime minister highly result oriented highly professional totally matter of fact so he's very matter of fact very professional very Target oriented very measured and has no favors to give no favors to offer he is a very very strong professional authentic leader he's a totally he's a missionary at work I find him totally missionary at work he's a mission we look for a truly Karam Yogi he's truly you may agree with his certain we find people distracting but he's a truly Karam Yogi and his homegrown Karma Yogi and he's been groomed as a Karma Yogi I think the the organization has actually groomed a leader very rare of its kind he started uh being the serving understanding learning", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-69", "text": "kind he started uh being the serving understanding learning reading spirituality ethics geography traveling all over the country understanding organizational skills he's a homegrown organizational person that's why he's very good in all these aspects because he's spent all his life learning these ropes you don't have any others learning the ropes from elementary when he started to Market with his father he was learning public relations he was learning Communications he was learning marketing how does he sell the tea yeah the tea how does he sell his tea yeah and he was also sensing how people buy why would they buy and he's also stretching Beyond and then he's combining a spiritual he's also gone into the Himalayas to uh so he's basically a missionary he's a sinasi in this dress so to serve this country um of a hundred billion plus uh one needs that kind of zeal isn't it 100 we are very to my mind without being adulating I think we needed a man like them in the kinds of situations we crossed", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-70", "text": "them in the kinds of situations we crossed through we needed a man like him and I can tell you if India had can continue with this for the next five years you know what I had nothing to do with this I should look at my fate line uh I should like his speeches when he was making the speeches and I had no inclinations for either I didn't know what was coming I used to say uh I should look at my fate line because India was going through huge corruption at that time and India now needed a shift we needed integrity who leader comes doesn't matter but honest leadership right let's look at my fate line saying is as an Indian is my fate line going to be deeper as an Indian that India moves towards a whole trajectory of growth and makes an impact internationally because I was traveling overseas and I've seen what was happening so if my fate line is deeper India will be well LED without knowing any time the leader will come connect with me", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-71", "text": "knowing any time the leader will come connect with me somehow and I took tweet also I should like his speeches and I used to tweet without being political or non-political because for me I was a citizen who was sensitive to issues I used to do that nice to say if my fate light I think we India has gained tremendously last I've just come back from overseas every Indian is very proud of being an Indian overseas today Indians are wealthier outside they're looking to serve India if they had the Voting Rights might tell you they would have loved it so uh you know in spite of the challenges that India faces today you you are optimistic about the future of this country if it continues it has a continuity and valid it needs a very important continuity of huge infrastructure developments which we made Investments which we've made policies which we made we need continuity and growth and we need to turn around this bureaucracy to become Karma yogis if we can turn around which", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-72", "text": "Karma yogis if we can turn around which I'm sure he will and his team will he makes it team if he does that and each Karma Yogi is out on the streets and make a real self-driven self walking self-driven if every bureaucrat whatever the responsibility is karma Yogi walking the streets smelling feeling hearing seeing correcting Hands-On even for hour a day India would be different in next four or five years India has it all India has the potential India is no more poor India's rich rich in Manpower rich and human resource real rich and demographic dividend we only have to build on that and let it be have the self-confidence that you can India can be the best spiritually so powerful look India is being looked up to even spiritually today right on that very optimistic note ma'am uh thank you so much for coming here and giving us uh advice hope and uh telling parents and Society what to do to keep our public places and our homes safer thank you so much Matt well", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "18d25eebbade-73", "text": "and our homes safer thank you so much Matt well thank you Smith that's been a nice long one but I hope this didn't irritate you too no no not at all the fact that I'm most honored that in spite of this you just continued undeterred that is okay for these are little minor matters thank you so much thanks that was my conversation with iconic police officer Kiran bedi I would like to take this opportunity to thank all of you for writing and writing in about your comments and suggestions on who to invite to this podcast and what issues we should touch we certainly will keep it in mind when we invite guests in the near future namaste foreign [Music]", "source": "gSjrZvYVQ4I"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-0", "text": "when this narrative was created defense minister it was after about a month and a half or so that the defense minister himself said don't use the mobile the other mobile but it is ruthless when it comes to discipline we may be an army but we are still in an army of a democratic country where the politics or the political system runs and that should how it should be and otherwise we would be like Pakistan they were not harming they were harming the nation the personally goes the personal fights of the nation got affected because of that at the end of the day yes I went into depression I am not denying it because a cup seven years is a long long time one after the other Chief one after the other Chief and you are seeing the people everybody knows it is wrong but nobody's opening up his mouth foreign Namaste Jai Hind welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is someone who hasn't spoken on a podcast or on television uh", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-1", "text": "spoken on a podcast or on television uh about what he had undergone when he was in the Indian army my guest is Colonel honey bakshi you can Google him you can find out about what happened to the TSD or you can listen in to this conversation which is so Illuminating about what happened in that unit which was set up as a counter-terror operation joining me in this conversation is my colleague Ajit Dubai who has pursued this story for a long time this is a conversation which will reveal so much about the Army about the TSD about the role played by the Indian media the Army carried out a detailed investigation into the alleged wrongdoings of the TSD and in the end it dropped the general court martial proceedings against colonel bakshi colonel muneshwar nathbakshi or kernel hanibakshi as your more famously known as popularly known as thank you so much for coming to this podcast I'm guessing this is the first podcast you've ever done oh yes today in", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-2", "text": "first podcast you've ever done oh yes today in fact I'm getting that feeling I'm facing the SSB for the first time okay okay we're very honored and also a little nervous speaking about uh this whole operation this whole uh you know experience that you have gone through in life what a life you have led uh full of controversy full of uh events everything which we want to know about today uh I'm sure someday we will make a movie another movie uh on you um I'm going to begin with uh you know the take the conversations you know straight on and begin with the TSD uh the technical services division for which everything happened in your life can you tell us uh when was it Formed it was this shadowy outfit you can tell us more about it when was it Formed what was the need for it uh who felt the need for it why when everything I what had happened was that when the Mumbai attack took place on 26 11 2008 the then prime minister Mr Manmohan", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-3", "text": "11 2008 the then prime minister Mr Manmohan Singh was actually very very perturbed about the whole issue and somewhere he felt that we should have the capability to strike back and give the pakistanis in the same manner that they have been kind of you know treating the country of us so on his orders or directions God bless us all Mr Narayanan had called all the intelligent Chiefs and the Army chief and he asked can we right now probably the country was not prepared and the intelligence Chiefs refused Mr Narayan and himself had been in the IB he had a background to it so probably he knew the capabilities of IB at that given time and uh he had some faith in the Army let's accept the the entire country has a faith in the Army and he then asked General Deepak Kapoor to why don't we start preparing certain special teams so Deepak Kapoor calls and lumba then the DJ military intelligence and uh lumba did some homework of course my name had cropped", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-4", "text": "did some homework of course my name had cropped up probably through Mr Narayan because I had a little background to that attack not that I can mention anything about it but yes one of the recordings that was right now shown in the U.N of these at terrorists talking from the Shabbat house to Sajid Mir I'll keep it to that only and uh John Luma started working on it but somehow you know in our country things happen we react immediately and thereafter it dies down its own death now John lumba had faith in general we kissing they probably were known to each other idea so the moment the name came he flew into Calcutta and told him that now that you're the chief this is the requirement of the government immediately of course all this was happening I was not aware how much time has passed now in this period between the idea and the between the idea and by the time the TSD came in idea cropped up in November 2008 I was commanding a unit in", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-5", "text": "in November 2008 I was commanding a unit in Calcutta handling the complete of the East all the nine states and I was given a hint sometimes in February 2010. that you will be moving to Delhi frankly I was not keen in coming to Delhi I had earlier served there a dirty City I was more interested in you know going to the Northeast one vacancy had come up it was a new vacancy so I was looking forward to some new challenge but I really did not know what thing was and every time he would call me up uh the reposting eye and I would say no sir General week is no General lumba and then I would ask him sir heck yeah foreign so finally one day my posting didn't come but I had to move on attachment to Delhi my posting came very late so it was in the month of March April March and April beginning that I landed up in Delhi um another officer had also been posted so it was just two of us by the time the posting", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-6", "text": "was just two of us by the time the posting came it was already mid 2010 and uh it was a cold start so things started propping up in Kashmir you remember the 2010 Stone building it was taking a big toll on the economy of Kashmir leave aside anything else the education of the children schools were closed the ones were there so I was then given the task to control that and it was sometimes in August that we got into it by the mid-november we had contained the stone building just the two officers by then we had managed one JSU and haldar so we were all of four of us we did certain kind of operations we if they were making a calendar so we also started making a calendar um so we were able to contain in fact it was a well recognized operation the officer of mine ensured that he got a cinema Devotion to duty for that yeah and so this was uh TSD work this was TSD work and then by the time we started creating a team it was", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-7", "text": "by the time we started creating a team it was already February 2011. effectively we came in in 2011 February January February by buying this there were two three so you were thrown into the Kashmir we came in and we were in The Cauldron we just came in we in fact we didn't even know which side the north was because uh you know you need to administratively also set up yourself you need somebody to you come home there's somebody there to at least open the door for you there was nothing you just used to fly and fly out fly and fly out it was like and uh but uh challenges are there it's uh how did you control the stone belting we'll keep that to him you don't want to talk about a lot of lives are at risk in this okay so then by January February we came in 2011 we were established it was just that we were there the organization had the people in the organization that time had feared that he can do it and I have a long long", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-8", "text": "he can do it and I have a long long history in Kashmir Drive I probably is one of the only persons who have though officially two ten years but those two tenures are as good as four or five ten years so and I had served virtually in the entire Kashmir from North Kashmir to South Kashmir to Central Kashmir I knew Kashmir at the back of my hand so in TSD how did you choose your team or did you get the free hand to choose a team or was it given to you barring one officer when I landed he was already there he had a certain background so the people had thought that immediately you know in the Army we need a back you can't move alone uh the buddy system they call it a buddy system I call it a back because if I'm facing in the front somebody should be looking behind so that officer fantastic Soldier I would say officer is one thing but soldiering is another thing so it's a very fantastic", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-9", "text": "is another thing so it's a very fantastic Soldier and then I was given the liberty so what we had planned was that instead of getting newcomers because this was at a very very high level the operations were you see there are operations which youngsters do which probably are effective or effective to a particular area here the entire National Security was involved and we were my whatever I said was reported up to the NSA so it was serious business actually so what I did was I picked up old stalwarts who had you know about 12 years 13 years 15 years in fact you won't believe it people were surprised when I picked up a guy who was very senior to me you never you didn't make it to a full tunnel though sometimes you know the way the system works good people are and they they left behind so the posting officer we call him the MS he called me he said sir and he's about to retire I said it's okay in the period in the window that he I will", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-10", "text": "in the period in the window that he I will give him he will establish me so well that I don't have to worry after that anybody can come there after you know because when you come in you need to create assets fortunately I picked up people who already had assets making a set is something like your first love you know every time you make a asset and uh you maintain that relationship with him because he has come to work is not because he's Charmed by the organization of some time mostly he has come because of your personal interpersonal relationship so that way I was lucky I I got that free hand and I picked up from and then I these officers I gave them that option that you can pick up your teams whatever you can do your jams your gsus whoever you want article which he had written about your team Ajit has been following this story for several years so one of his articles which I dug out from the past yes he's a stalker he's a stalker of the TSD um and", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-11", "text": "he's a stalker of the TSD um and I'm going to read out from his article about your team he said bakshi's first pick was Lieutenant Colonel Vijay B AKA birdie who has served who had served in the research and Analysis Wing the external intelligence agency he was awarded a gallantry award for his role in a classified operation he was bakshi's Point man against terrorist groups in the Northeast and Jammu Kashmir number two Lieutenant sarvesh D was the second man to be picked the veteran skydiver with 3 000 jumps under his belt commanded an army company during the kargil war later he was part of a special action group of the national security guard during a counter's terrorist operation in sopor Jammu and Kashmir sarvesh sense that his men were in danger and barged into a house where Afghan terrorists were holed up he killed them all and saved his men number three was Lieutenant Colonel Alfred b a season negotiator while serving with 28 Assam rifles", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-12", "text": "season negotiator while serving with 28 Assam rifles he created Assets in the dreaded ulfa these assets were later used to persuade the ulfa leadership to come to a truce with the Army which Ensure short piece in Assam where am I four four lieutenant colonel was the fourth known for his wide Network among terrorist groups in the Northeast Zid had brought about the ceasefire deal with the Dima halim DHD Ultras of Assam he had played a role in the arrest of some of the DHT leader zeed gathered crucial Intelligence on arms trafficking into India from Myanmar and helped intercept Consignments bakshi's best pick perhaps was left in Colonel anurag AKA naughty so honey picks naughty if I may say diabetic and overweight he looked quite unlike an army spy a training injury meant that he could not work out and thus he gained weight many laughed when bakshi picked him but they soon found that he could walk for Miles through the hilly", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-13", "text": "that he could walk for Miles through the hilly Jammu and Kashmir terrain with a walking stick without a walking stick no with the walking stick for support a master in cultivating assets among the terrorist groups he was one who could help the Army identify the real troublemakers during the Stone pelting protest in Kashmir in the summer of 2010 so though you will not tell us much about the operations that you undertook Ajit has managed to dig up I did still missed that gentleman that I was talking about you were talking about okay try to deep your next assignment right so so you had this team with you and uh uh getting uh you know one has heard about this buddy system uh in the Army so these guys were very essential to you isn't it see uh I had a very since I was a directly commissioned intelligence officer in fact from a batch of 400 odd that got commissioned we were just two of us who were selected for the intelligence so honored that somebody did you know", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-14", "text": "the intelligence so honored that somebody did you know identify us then I was the fourth batch of direct commissioned officers and uh I in some use in in this long journey I had come across with them cernad worked with me naughty of course was my batchmate and this senior that I was talking about um a lot of regards for him a lot of regards a lot of fine gentleman he was and uh I so since I knew the backgrounds very well and zeer and uh Alfred they were with me in my previous tenure also in the Northeast in the Northeast so a lot of confidence in them though they had been overlooked to become Colonels they did not get the promotions but uh such wonderful people the team just give you a couple of you know backgrounds to this uh Alfred they will keep him melted only don't name is something else jelly yeah his name is only something else okay the B is the Realtors let me give you a little bit because it must", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-15", "text": "let me give you a little bit because it must be somewhere in Kerala or Karnataka not at all not at all if I am sitting here and I don't you know bring out what my officers they were colleagues they were friends okay they they are still friends okay they are colleagues they're friends and they were through with me through my thick and thin and uh family right when you they're they're family they and if there's anybody in the forges family first that's a beautiful watch right so but then they are they're with you in operations which could mean life or death and you depend on them survival so I'll give you about first let me start with Alfred G iven in the Northeast and uh there's a big organization called Alpha Alpha has one battalion called 28 Battalion up in the north built in that area is the foreign Alpha that is where all the funds come in the Tea Gardens because it's all extortion money the Tea Gardens the collaris the oil fields the", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-16", "text": "Tea Gardens the collaris the oil fields the forest the national highway projects so just plan to Dent the alphas Financial you know you have to you have to head them where it effects so there was a very hardcore I didn't want to call him a terrorist now simply speaking so when meeting was arranged with them and Alfred went the whole day they kept moving him from one vehicle to other other to others so that he's not being you know followed lest he reaches the place and the leader is eliminated of course REM wasn't at all because elimination is the easiest job to do killing a terrorist is the easiest job to do but to motivate a terrorist to come back to the mainstream it takes a lot believe me it takes a lot and and that is what is the requirement that is what is the need we are not here to kill people we are at the end of the day our first aim is there are some which will not change just too bad then there is", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-17", "text": "which will not change just too bad then there is a second level where we need to get the violence down because any kind of violence affects the society out there there are people there the kids there there the businesses are affected shutdowns are there so second level is that and third level is when you can motivate them to get them back it's your country you're as much as you see the citizen here soup went there now night they reached they call it a jhoom huti hut and this man was there he had carried a letter from somebody so the meeting happened in the night and mind you Alfred all alone he's a mad guy here all alone after some time and Alfred is we all joke something like Michael darupika foreign that he was carrying his head flask and he asked that guy my pillow that guy says no we don't drink Northeast terrorists the undergrounds or whatever you call the militants they actually have certain principles they really have certain things so like the", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-18", "text": "principles they really have certain things so like the nagas they generally don't harm ladies and kids they have a problem with an officer they will send him a letter warning letter and then they will strike okay the Warriors you you have to give credit to the enemy the wrong word to use though I guess yeah I get what uh wrong word to use though there are people only much better than the kashmiri Terrace any day any day believe me any day a lot of respect for their way the way they fight so now Alfred is sitting there this guy pulls out his pistol and he starts you know working on it trying to tell him that I'm armed I'm armed slept well in the night morning they got up and this guy asked Salford he says [Music] [Laughter] okay and uh this uh he didn't have an answer obviously obviously but they then became the thickest of the friends and voila this is forgiving seriously yeah this is how he was cultivated and not", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-19", "text": "yeah this is how he was cultivated and not cultivated motivated motivated cultivated is a very wrong word to use okay well motivated and 28 Battalion had three companies two companies uh came into ceasefire one company which was being led by a guy called Chinese he kind of ran away with his people to Myanmar they went across tell us something about the Myanmar operations that you were involved in okay no it's the same again what happened was after this ceasefire came in unfortunately you know I was a media boy I was a media baby for some time and now I realized that good portions of the media doesn't cover there was one operation this follow-up of this when this happened there was a senior gardener whose wife was in Myanmar when they when they see carried out the ceasefire here he became part of the ceasefire so the alpha leadership from there sent a threat to him that if you don't come back we'll kill your wife and your daughter Mona Lisa Mona Lisa so now", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-20", "text": "and your daughter Mona Lisa Mona Lisa so now this poor guy came back to us he said sir because of you people we came in and now families are at risk we owe it to our assets we were to our people that's what the army is all about we were in the intelligence we very rarely wore uniforms but we owed to them so we planned an operation we used another terrorist group our assets inside those groups this lady was recovered along with her daughter we brought her back Okay so so that's how it works confidence building not only confidence building you see the man has taken so much of risk to switch over you can't live so during the course of this podcast I am going to read out documents which uh I know you can't talk about certain things so I'm going to throw it at you and you are welcome to confirm deny or ignore whatever I'm reading out uh of the TSD the euphemistically called technical services division is my technical service division so um it says that", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-21", "text": "is my technical service division so um it says that there were five jcos and 30 men yes or no you can't okay this is open source info this is open source information what is open source is okay and they operated out of an unmarked two-story building and uh within the Delhi Cantonment and it was dubbed The Butchery that was refurbished slaughterhouse of the colonial times some journalists have a knack to you know make it interesting yes was there a building naturally yeah where do we stay that was there was this whole thing about a general who came in and uh yeah that's a fact right to sneak in and get information that is also open sourced information no no no no complaint was we fight and complained in fact buddy filed the complaint he was offshooting at that time um heated Gun there's no denying it and uh worst part you know sometimes I feel key he tried to get in into the building you see I'll tell you something he didn't come inside the building", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-22", "text": "tell you something he didn't come inside the building to take anything out I have a hunch and I I have survived on my hunches and mainstreams came to leave something there plant something plant something there since the board of Officer of General Bhatia was on and probably there was a hand in glove situation with somebody in the Iraqi and the board would come in picked up that thing and mapuri and he came in with a journalist he came in with a journalist yeah to plant something we'll get to that uh you know that whole thing that happened the inquiry and all that uh right now I just I need to know from you about uh what you were doing uh at those I understand that some of them were dark Ops and you cannot talk and dark Ops need to be off the books however when the TSD came under scrutiny some of those dark Ops were coming out in the open and you even wrote a letter requesting that they shouldn't come out no when I wrote a letter", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-23", "text": "shouldn't come out no when I wrote a letter you see I I'm not confirming whether those dark Ops were there or not there are certain things which cannot be confirmed to others I'm Bound by certain laws or issues whatever beat you see when my haldar was going through a Court martial there was an alleged CD that supposedly had data from the TSD which he had tried to uh you know sell it that was the education so in the court martial the evidence was being taken there's a very famous seven judge constitutional bed judgment called the state of up versus Raj Narayan and um that politician yeah yeah yeah yeah in fact in the triple tala it was a five judge bench constitutional Banshee this was a seven judge constitutional event so you can understand the gravity of this that the Supreme Court honorable Supreme Court felt that there has to be a constitutional judgment when judgment and of that kind basically five seven nine so anything which is not in the interest of the nation cannot", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-24", "text": "which is not in the interest of the nation cannot be taken as evidence okay now what is there in the CD nobody knows one man has gone to jail for 10 years any evidence anything that is there on record has to be first confirmed by some custodian that yes this is an official document then only can you charge a person under official secret Act okay so nobody has given this confirmation whether or none of nobody in the line has ever said that these documents that are there in the city belong to THD merely just you write type something and you write TSD can it be taken as TSD no so when that CD was to be brought in I knew the system was against me the everybody and anybody who's wanting is somehow fix him one of those things in life it happens it can happen with anybody so I in the interest of the nation I thought that it is best to you know now involve the defense minister and what happens is that if such a document has to", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-25", "text": "happens is that if such a document has to be taken it is the prerogative of the judge in the court who once he sees with his wisdom that this is not a right document to be taken in fact he will ask that you get it signed by the minister that this can be given as evidence so when it came to me I I in fact did say that you know I don't know what exactly it is but if what you are claiming what it is then please get a certificate from the minister the raksha mantri yeah so this is word of man what a fine gentleman oh very very very very simple and very very I had the uh honor to have interacted with him two three times in the course of things so I did write a letter that it's not in the interest of the nation if it be what it be till date I also don't know what is there in those cities frankly hmm so B it would be I told him but somehow at that given", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-26", "text": "be I told him but somehow at that given time the chief was they ensured that it was taken as evidence then they sealed it so inquiry sir we'll just come to that Ajit will also join me in that in the talk of that thing but uh before that but the beautiful part is sorry no no that letter that I wrote also got lead in the media yes everything got leaked in the media very posting I have a league my attachment came before I in fact got my attachment order it was signed in Delhi I was there in ladakh by the time it reached ladakh it was already there in the news that I am being moved to one day and you will not believe I had to tell the Brigade Commander there he said now the time hey and I'm already under threat yeah yeah because in the news where you leaking my locations you're leaking up with places including when you went to Bengaluru oh yes there was that attack that one person lost one lady died in that attack it", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-27", "text": "person lost one lady died in that attack it was Front Page News oh they made a front page news DNA and uh you know and uh South Main elections it's actually a festival South my elections is a festival and it's like all in the newspapers and suddenly one Sunday now the mha has written a letter to the ministry of defense that provide him security they have their own ways of assessing individuals of course my wife had also written because I told her that you be careful my sources are still intact we aren't we are we are now under the threat naturally forward the file to the thing and the directorate wrote a letter to the IB mha and the IB that make an assessment so that assessment was made now the orders came in I did speak to the journalist I said yeah where did you get it he says I'm dead sure this order is there I said I don't even have a psychic as a full Colonel we have a buddy system so I said I don't", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-28", "text": "have a buddy system so I said I don't even have a buddy and you were talking about protection so it was Center Page why a kernel in Bangalore we provided security and in that article literally they said he's posted to this place this office is in this road they were after me and there was an attack in Coconut Grove this restaurant where you know in fact I I sat with the deputy NSA that time I came back and came to Delhi and I told him the seriousness about it I said sir you've been to Brigade Road at any given time there are 5 000 people if somebody had planned a collateral attack basically your attack to have a collateral damage he would have just put an ID in a Dustbin on the roadside nothing is 20 25 people would have died but Church Lane where this Coconut Grove is is I said who do you think and that was the only place where I used to actually go and have my meals because it was not very far and I", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-29", "text": "my meals because it was not very far and I you know we also need a little change of food from that mess food so I used to use my debit card there zero down so you've taken down so many terrorist groups do you think this information and this attack was masterminded by any of the tear groups you don't think it was somebody who wanted the TSD out you wanted you out and that would be somebody from the forge itself because no no no no foreign was probably not with the intent that iib targeted by a terrorist group it was somebody sitting in some department so my intention or I'm not trying to put down the forces but at that time if you recall regarding the TSD it was war and you got caught between two chiefs and then it was scalps mattered it didn't matter is that true or not see let me let me put it in a very different manner you see uh Armed Forces is what the people who come to the Armed Forces they come from the", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-30", "text": "come to the Armed Forces they come from the same Society the influences of the society effect anybody who's coming naturally we have our laws we have our Acts cases they will be there everywhere they may be influencing the society so one of those things we are social creatures egos matter sir what was their issue I haven't they wanted they wanted tsdp shutdown you see uh sometimes in the interest of the nation um uh you remember the second land scam I busted that it was the head of the counterintelligence and counterterrorism unit in Calcutta it was on my I investigated it a lieutenant general went home the court has given him a reprieve that the punishment is a bit too harsh the Supreme Court has not said that he's not uh his charges have not been taught by the Supreme Court it's just that he be given the pension okay similarly what happened was General Ricky saying everybody knows this is a story it's nothing that a certain journals are the same general sub", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-31", "text": "that a certain journals are the same general sub that you were talking about who came into the TSD location had come and he had requested the journal to refer his name for the for one of the intelligence agencies to head that as the chairman yeah that's again open source that ntro is what he wanted okay so generally what happens is that as an organization and as the head of the organization he would prefer that somebody is sitting in that so we get our share of information and intelligence when we want it's it's easier to you know work so probably okay with that interest recommended the name now this is that he's told the court and the marriage it's a it's a subjective matter that he came and offered him some 14 karors for a drug deal the Tata attractive what happened there I am not uh privy to it but yes one day until we get did call me and he said here honey and he used to be very he was very fatherly to me he said I said", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-32", "text": "he was very fatherly to me he said I said what's up he said there are women and uh he says yeah foreign BSF the police in fact that Home Guard also once he's in uniform he has a duty to perform they were certain rumbles already that we were getting so I said so I flew down to Mumbai and I managed the documents of the famous or the infamous others building against that General he was the second phase of others was made under him so I got the documents the documents brought in and others is history thereafter so once his name problems up in the others case he couldn't get the NTR job then right so but um and and because of that file and so many generals because now in that NTR who think the names of oh sorry in the others think the names of three Chiefs came in the names of a chief minister came in the names of I had no it was a big and and supposedly there was a letter it is it's public document there's a letter", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-33", "text": "letter it is it's public document there's a letter which the first general sub who proposed the the jio CM in the area would propose the building uh income clearances so he wrote a letter to the government saying we will make a building for the war videos that letter exists okay for for kargil and there was a you know there was a fervor in National foreign TK so then the clearance was brought in under the pretext of this emotional ferva that uh but when you went in to get that name out you didn't know Kia Hornets right you didn't know that I did have the list of the people who were the stakeholders in that I did have the list so this is what it was happening was that the brief probably expanded of the TSD yes the foreign a person in the government so I am the government when people say our government I am the government I am part of that government I cannot Circle my responsibilities if that was needed it was to be done somebody had to do", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-34", "text": "needed it was to be done somebody had to do it um TK and when you do it thinking that it is in the National interest and you are not you know you don't have cobwebs in your mind your mind is clear so you really don't realize keep it's called repercussion it never actually you know crossed my mind so when the order is sorry documents papers chief minister had to go and uh the responsibility of getting the resignation from the chief minister was given to the then defense minister uh AK Anthony so uh did you ever realize frankly I came my job was to give the documents get the evidence I got the evidence I gave it for me it was over I had so many jobs to do I it just didn't come into the mind okay or it will flare up like this yeah this is that the philosophy of most of the good and end offices should be it is also and it should be because you are foreign integrity of course we don't have to give a certificate to", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-35", "text": "of course we don't have to give a certificate to show that I am honest and integrated Integrity but that should be the theory that that should be the basis of anybody and everybody so when you've given an order it might seem at that stage that it's not that the objective might be military or national cause but the process might be a non-military way of doing things you know like say digging out a paper this is or this is not something those papers were dug out they were dug out they were already available through the RTI this that's the best part so so what I just had to go and meet the man who had taken these out on from RTI right so I really didn't have to it was just identifying the man who the guy is interested in getting these documents you will go with the thing that the order given to you has been given to you for a national cause and not a political no not a protocol it was not at all a political thought it never actually was it never", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-36", "text": "all a political thought it never actually was it never actually was aim was very clear that in the nation should not suffer because of one Rogue person if it be if I can call it the wrong person you didn't at any point of time see because the reason is because when this inquiry was held about the TSD later they it was that there was mishandling of sensitive information there was also this misundling of sensitive um and then there was also allegation that there was political targeting that the TSD was used for which was one of the allegations was that phone tapping was done of the abdullahs and so these could be tell me was there a political let me first tell you there was nothing technical about Technical Services Division so that allegation that there was phone tapping Etc so there was no tech only human it was purely human it was it had got nothing to you see when you were in court operations you got to be given a story so that was just a story nothing more than that as", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-37", "text": "that was just a story nothing more than that as far as political thing is concerned believe me the Omar Abdullah was the chief minister of Kashmir when the stone pelting was happening did they try to topple him or by containing the stone building we were trying to help him and stabilize his government simple it was a job to be done we did that now if he has something to rub with somebody and he starts that no I was being politically targeted and that's the wrong thing that's the wrong thing in fact I did meet him some other some in very dear friend's mother's death and I've walked up to him and told him I said and so and so I said let me assure you you untapped that's the least I can tell him do they believe you when you say these things when a narrative is created unfortunately the media which is such a beautiful role to play but if the media creates a narrative I do meet a lot of people and every time you", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-38", "text": "do meet a lot of people and every time you know it starts I have to start explaining them then I have to tell them then they still are you know doubtful geese foreign because there was so much of leakage of information isn't it was not leakage it was being leaked and planted I know who was doing it I'll not name him here because otherwise it will again become a legal issue I exactly knew who were doing and let me tell you something karma is divine as much it is divine that much it is a [\u00a0__\u00a0] there are officers who have suffered and I'm telling you I sit and I just observe and I look at you and I say I was a very spiritual man I still am a very spiritual man as I see killing a terrorist is the last thing for me if I can motivate him nothing like it I'm still very very spiritual and uh I believed in it because they were not harming Ani bakshi they were harming the nation", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-39", "text": "harming Ani bakshi they were harming the nation they personally goes their personal fights became the nation got affected because of that at the end of the day yes you had such a beautiful organization that was capable of you know sorting out so many things you targeted that once you've targeted an organization which has been created and not less than an NSC look at it the need for an old such an organization came from there is a special secret organization I'll I'll give you a simple example that there were these stories no no it was his personal Army it was a secret army what was it doing what strategic requirement was there what national security requirements were there you know when for me it I have actually served the Army for 30 years was so much let me come to this pagalworldly story and then we'll come to this why it was you know mentally disturbing me I got married in May 91 prior to that I mean May 90 when just the valley thing had started and there were no counter terrorism", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-40", "text": "valley thing had started and there were no counter terrorism units in Valley well he was more of a army deployment on the line of control internal rear radius security there was nothing logo there were people brought in on udhar from different formations outside jnk to come and operate there was no RR at that time no rushed rifles in fact you will not believe Assam referred to be brought in to because there were nobody and it was Mary Hill and uh so we were amongst the first people who moved in that was somewhere in the beginning of 90. and initially I was in URI then I was moved to kufaula carried out somewhere I I was fortunate that I had the Knack to cultivate now I will use that word so cultivate assets so first I created Assets in URI then I went to kapala where we started cultivating assets then by May 931 my I I went down chutti to get married and while I was coming back by then a division had been moved from somewhere else to", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-41", "text": "then a division had been moved from somewhere else to kofara now so just so I'm sorry to interrupt when you say cultivating assets assets because it's such a American terminology correct basically you call them informants and Farmers yeah you see cultivation when you say it uh why is it a task how do you walk away you have to identify people who move around with the terrorists or are in the terrorist groups or the families who are not very happy about the Sun going in so you need to First identify them who are there you need to read about them you need to get as much information will be pliable okay and then you zoom into certain individuals and see if they can provide you information so you were doing this prior initially because when we moved in there was nothing it was just it was a mad mess there killing is happening Ambush is happening no counter 20 000 people had gone across to get trained and believe me uh we were deployed in a tactical manner as far as Army", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-42", "text": "deployed in a tactical manner as far as Army is concerned we were not deployed in a counter infiltration role Italy in fact um loads of people used to go what does this means okay from Srinagar you're sitting it was en route and then you go to and from there somebody will guide you across and they're there in Pakistan okay whatever you call it so you were cultivating assets and then you go to sequentially let's go and now you go to get married so I go together obviously you didn't tell your wife that this is what you were doing but she's also from a 4G family she knows she knows the father was a colonel and her brother was a colonel yeah Colonel yeah my family by and large about 99 percent so she knew what she's signing up for yeah she knew what it's signing up for so and um I got married and when I came back by then the GOC baramulla he came to know that I am going to kofwala but", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-43", "text": "to know that I am going to kofwala but earlier used to be under Josie then 28 div came in so he called up my boss in Srinagar and he said you drop him here send somebody else so a major general asking for a lieutenant Saab acting Captain for me it was a very big you know validation of my work so he got down there coming into baramulla means now I have to restart making assets all over again so it takes time it takes time so who had the time for you know being in touch with the family Mobile store training foreign [Music] so I requested my she landed I went to pick her up this CEO because she was the first lady after the first time she was coming after marriage so she was generous enough to have given his tough car which was of course a civil numbered car he is at the moment we were in the car no it was a single car in a place like Kashmir I was training her how to fire aike in the car I", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-44", "text": "training her how to fire aike in the car I said if something happens you should know that this is how you go to [\u00a0__\u00a0] and this is how you go to fire the trigger seriously it was that bad a situations and we reached home that night the CEO called us over for dinner so the couple of more offices so one scene is a balcony comes in he says Madam thank you you were going in for operations without a thought sir obviously means information means your window to react is very less um bulletproof jackets were still in the process of being thought yeah [Music] I had a very good success good success and that tenure I think I recovered 198k rifles so that was the kind of person I was and your team in the TSD you had phenomenal success as far as some of the operations were concerned which you yes we will not no I will not say but I can only say one thing that the dent see I had this Advantage I had these old", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-45", "text": "dent see I had this Advantage I had these old haggards who were mad men who who were with me with my colleagues and I told them please tell your families the day you received this don't even ask for the body that was the level of motivation and dedication don't ask for the body Ka Matlab here no nothing more something sometimes happen just accept the flag that's the biggest honor we'll see Flags the best that the nation can give is that trigger it's an honor how do you prepare your family sir for these kind of things of your team yeah because family life suffers a lot it's not possible to do you know this isn't it this is during it this happened during the tsg2 offices went through divorce how do you keep your team motivated to go on these operations when you know that they're better motivate them they were all motivated that's why I picked them even if their personal lives were at stake they didn't see all these years we were working things were", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-46", "text": "didn't see all these years we were working things were fine individual officers what triggers what triggers we really don't know what triggers sometimes my wife has been steadfast there were others whose wives have been steadfast so what this I mean and then there is this move to disband this and not just disband It Go for the officers go for their scalp what happens then why that why they have to answer you must be knowing why you can't talk about it it's known here there was a fight between certain Jews the Army Chief had one Chief thought that the first Army Chief was trying to block him and the media was trying to say that he's trying to change the line of succession what line of succession two officers and came up what line of succession it is the political decision so we we may be an army but we are still an army of a democratic country where the politics or the political system runs and that should how it should be and otherwise uh we would be like Pakistan you", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-47", "text": "be and otherwise uh we would be like Pakistan you just mentioned General rawat yeah this uh targeting of yours was going on after this band disbandment of the unit first the howler faced this inquiry was given 10-year RI then your turn also came there was a court of inquiry against you also and uh seven years seven years so all these two consecutive chiefs were targeting you how did you come out of it in fact unfortunately uh when General rawat came up initially I had a lot of hopes but for some reason I don't know I God bless his soul he's a nice man as far as I am concerned he was a nice man for me um maybe he had certain policies which people didn't like it but as far as my own individual thing is concerned uh he was a nice man and uh again he was a very very deep follower of the Bhagavad philosophy and I am told that he used to keep a bhagavad-gita in his office you would have gone to", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-48", "text": "in his office you would have gone to his office a number one on his front desk and one behind him so all his decisions were taken in the middle of so so what happened was that uh he had already finished about a year and a half his tenure and my court marshall started of that year and a half about a year the court the matter was stayed by the terminal so I really can't blame him for that and uh when the court martial started they there's a right of mind that I will be given the copy of the inquiry and the copy of the evidence which was not being given now that makes it that it was not a fair trial so letter was written to him and I quoted from the very famous and I quoted the last tens of it that summer um [Music] so you sitting silent I knew that he he was a Bhagavad follower he was he was using to debug with philosophy and probably that stanza affected and he immediately passed orders gentlemen give him a", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-49", "text": "and he immediately passed orders gentlemen give him a fair trial because everybody was waiting and everybody thought that the previous Chief was from the gurkhas and this is also from the Gurkha so probably he's also in one day he was not but uh very kind and very generous of uh General rawat and of course my I I just came to know that he is a bhagavat if he believes in the philosophies so let me get to the point of abhi chiefs we've talked about the two chiefs who were you know getting the trying to or theme chiefsuke and then comes in general rawat we have talked about the Chiefs who were involved in this setting up taking out controversy everything role of the defense minister we've also spoke about the NSA it was the NSA who wanted this TSD to be formed uh it was a prime minister who said that we need something the NSA gets around doing it there with General lumba and the others who were involved in setting it up", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-50", "text": "and the others who were involved in setting it up role of the defense minister supposedly he read about it in the newspaper that his phone is going is being tapped and then he confronts the Army Chief at this time I think his General break from uh no did he confront somebody and he says is my phone tapped and the general says is my phone tapped by the TSD and the general says that this is a rogue the controversy started sometimes in March of 2012. the issue had come up sometimes in the month of March and then we get retired then Chief retired in May and uh you see what happens is I intelligence everybody knows that they do a lot of things so probably had somebody gone to tell the defense minister that foreign it was after about a month and a half or so that the defense minister himself said I don't use a mobile which he actually never used so then the goal post was shifted defense Ministries you had this mobile interceptors did you ever", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-51", "text": "Ministries you had this mobile interceptors did you ever have that kind of thing soon TK we are a democratic country and I'm telling you the army we are a very lucky country that we have an army that still stands for the democracy we are unlike many other Rogue Nations there are certain mandates given to certain agencies if that mandate is not with me I will not do it equipment foreign foreign foreign all tails I won't even call them fairy tales it was a narrative created to Target a gentleman and in the bargain the country lost a capability who came and told you that disbanded and you're being shunted out technically it's not yet been disbanded nobody has been posted there till date he was just we just got the postings the TSD still exists in paper foreign I only know one thing that we all got posted out that's it okay I'm going to read out again from ajit's article now this has become my Gita ajith with regard to this", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-52", "text": "become my Gita ajith with regard to this story because I'm going to read out sir and then you can tell me whether right or wrong or you want to confirm or deny he says bakshi that's you uh is with a unit in ladakh where his job is to count snow jackets and mind you what I'm reading out is there in Pakistani websites also because they were very interested to knowledge article has been posted as to where all you people were located as soon as the tsds and she only told me um syndrome son-in-law was kind of you know taking her around again suddenly he says you remember there was so and so Bhai who was the managing the camp earlier foreign foreign ment where his job is to count snow jackets and shoes being stopped stocked for winter despite being close to the Chinese border the super spy has no role in monitoring activities of the Chinese troops all Top Guns of the TSD are in bakshi's shoes birdie is with the military engineering service in", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-53", "text": "shoes birdie is with the military engineering service in shillong where he oversees plumbers and Masons who maintain the official quarters of the Air Force surveys the skydiver maintains land records of a small formation in jharkhand Alfred used to manage Polyclinic in diolali in Maharashtra after his father retired major wrote to the army that his son was threatening to kill himself up mental stress Alfred was posted closer Home as a national Cadet Corps officer in Rajasthan zeer is at a Polyclinic in Karnataka clearing medical bills of retired officers and jawans naughty two is with the medical facility in madhya Pradesh more than the humiliation of these postings the officers are tormented by The Strain on their families two are facing divorce proceedings with their wives alleging prolonged years of separation this is ajit's article up it's me as an army officer you can be posted anywhere somebody has to do that yes we were we were doing well as professionals not", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-54", "text": "yes we were we were doing well as professionals not as career officers there are two types one is a career officer promotional promotions and most of them had overlooked their promotion boards but they were working they were working they were dedicated this was a kill team and you were calculating it was actually part of the job what happens is that the the appointment that I was handling also one of the jobs was uh so that was part of my job so it then Begins the inquiry yes against you in which you are involved seven years did you ever expect a fair trial or did did you think that fair trial is something that always happens but it didn't happen see mostly it happens mostly it happens there is a law there's a army act as a special law we have Army rules we've got Army regulations and uh but it is ruthless when it comes to discipline in my case it was getting ruthless because of something else foreign he comes from the same Society what influences he", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-55", "text": "he comes from the same Society what influences he has had as a child when he's growing up and then joining the forge those influences are ingrained into him unless until he has the threat of a very ruthless act a very ruthless law foreign so it's a Commander's act actually it is a com it's an act which is in the favor of the commander but aberrations are there sometimes personal egos make it a issue there are cases where Supreme Court but at the end of the day he wins the case outside we are all same we are human beings from the beginning I will not get a fair trial why it was written all over the wall in fact I was asking for something which they were not giving me so I told them I said that I need that particular thing now officially I also knew um there's a rule to it and I wanted to tell them that there are certain pages which are missing from there to the court looked at me how do you know that", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-56", "text": "the court looked at me how do you know that because the code of inquiry was kept in a quarter bloody but I exactly knew what is wrong in the inquiry without even having it with me so why told the court um you put a charge of five years imprisonment you put a charge of you know so many things I just needed that hint so in the court I sang a little song not exactly singing in a singing way I said then you should have seen the expression in fact I said I said one job one one of the honorable members of the Court martial he said sir Shan I said exactly I said inquiry foreign to the court Nine Pages were missing who do you blame so for this see sometimes foreign at one point of time you were even suicidal not exactly suicidal but yes I went into depression I am not denying it because a cup seven years is a long long time one after the other Chief one after the other Chief and you are seeing the people", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-57", "text": "after the other Chief and you are seeing the people everybody knows it is wrong everybody knows it is wrong nobody's opening up his mouth that was actually a dark phase of the army your son had to change buses because no that was because of the threat of this terrorist threat so uh in fact he lost a year because of his attendance what was happening was that I told him I said you will not catch one vehicle one run meaning of mode of transport and go to your college every time take a change so how do you how do you cope with this you know because you were talking about Forge made this buddy system this you have your back everybody is like a family more than a family at times because every day you need their help to survive literally you know when you're in these operations did you feel let down by your own course mates patch mates a lot of people came calling me up I'm not denying it and a lot of officers came up in fact I would tell them", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-58", "text": "of officers came up in fact I would tell them don't talk to me my phones are under monitor I knew it I told them my phones are under monitors your careers will be spoiled just because you're contacting me they were concerned they were concerned it is just that a group of officers and people who were made to get involved in my case that they you know I'm going to read out sir another uh thing you can confirm deny as I said I'm going to keep doing this um the observations of the then Deputy Chief of Army Lieutenant General d s takor who while appearing before a related Army proceeding said quote it is sad to see that the Witch Hunt against the intelligence Corps officers who put their careers and lives on the line and took grave risks in conducting these operations in the service of the nation still continues it is also sad that we don't realize what damage we have been doing to the overall morale and effectiveness of our intelligence core by", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-59", "text": "overall morale and effectiveness of our intelligence core by pursuing such inquiries we are only sending a message to our intelligence core Personnel not to take risks and play safe it is our officers at the Apex level who should squarely take the blame for this state of affairs as without a vibrant intelligence core operations we will be blinded by the Army unquote do you agree that's very foreign proceedings as a witness he was running High viral fever but he came he one day walked up to my wife he came with his wife to my house and he told my wife he says [Music] hmm I was privileged I was honored to have worked under such people I was actually on it and that's actually what keeps everybody in the Forge motivated but mostly forges this this is the face of watch he has had the brightness to tell what was it people shy away that is what is expected out of fog I was honored to have served with him so there was that huh sorry go", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-60", "text": "with him so there was that huh sorry go ahead yeah I said like you went through a lot uh your wife went through a lot your son lost a year there was a lot of trauma all around in the family not just yours your team members lost out on promotions good career officers do you people some somewhere feel that the Army did wrong to you you know Destiny is a very big thing as I said we all believe in the philosophy of bhagavata is there's a graveyard behind my house which is full of people who said that the world won't work without them unfortunately things went a little lorry now we are all enjoying our retirements it was a few individuals no it was few individuals Army is such a such a beautiful organization I am telling you you I again I'm telling you this country is very lucky that we are an army of a democratic country up can you guess it one of the most impossible things that can happen in this organ in this country is", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-61", "text": "that can happen in this organ in this country is this Army conducting a coup never it happened never it will happen then what was that armored that 33rd Armored Division uh commanded by Lieutenant General AK singer's time would report it that there was this large contingency of Airborne 50 para Brigade uh that was heading towards it why did this the report come in the month of May when January was to retire and why not when it was happening you mean when they were moving it didn't supposedly January May supposedly they were moving see Ami every year conducts certain exercises okay and when you conduct exercise if it is a repetitive thing that happens every year right then there is no need for so new ideas come in a certain idea came in during that war game because of which certain things had to be validated I will not get into the I'll not get into it because it will reveal a lot of issues otherwise so it was a validation exercise basically to check the time", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-62", "text": "it was a validation exercise basically to check the time and distance and the time and distance was if you believe me I'm sitting here it was not for Delhi at all and it was not a moment the way they showed the moment it was just basically to check how much time it takes for a body of troops to move from a place to B place it had nothing to do with Delhi so there was no coup That was supposed no not at all not at all this nation 's Army I am sitting here this is now a recorded and it will be there for ages to come this recording and I am saying it our army will never ever do such a thing we are we are not a rogami we are we are an army of a democratic country but relations between the civilian setup and the Army had come to such a low that people were ready to believe that article at that point of time the article was probably given from within the ministry there was a privileged paper that was", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-63", "text": "within the ministry there was a privileged paper that was getting all the information see what happens you are part of the media if an official says something for you he's a source you'll learn it foreign there's nothing like that believe me so we're talking about uh the forge and uh you answered Ajit and when you said that the Indian army stands by its people and it's uh you don't want to cast any aspersions tell us what happened with Colonel purohit and and adding to it sir uh your case was between 2004 2014 there's a particular government uh there was this uh you faced this TST was started and disbanded both during this period uh purohit faced a lot of issues he was it was said he was helping so-called Hindu Terror so uh I know being from the end core you and Colonel purohit you think of friends so tell us what happened and now let me let me start with purohit as a person first I have had the purohit was some", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-64", "text": "person first I have had the purohit was some kind of indirectly under me in South Kishore 2004 or five he's a third generation army officer and that was a very proud one very very nationalist now that things are coming battery subject is Ami did two inquiries first inquiry was one-sided so the court said kidney give him a chance and when he gave a chance he was given the chance in Army didn't find anything against him that's a fact okay secondly no it's a quote either document and again I come back to General rawat when General rawat came in and he probably interacted with him on a personal level or not I don't really don't know but General rawat immediately said give the officer all possible support that he needs for to fight his case irrespective whatever people may say but there are certain things which of course had you he was that way a very fair man and uh amongst those documents he pulled out one document which he wanted to produce in the court and", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-65", "text": "document which he wanted to produce in the court and the document is a document which mentions about his complete proposal as to how he will go about it this entire operation that he had done it was not that of the way it was a proposed plan that he will penetrate under certain things I'll give an example in the 13 query uh one gentleman I will not name him who was his one ranked senior he is [Music] two offices of the same unit at that given time have in the court trial court given evidence that whatever he was doing was being brave to us then there was this thingy Army message explosives let me read it out now this is the NIS uh chat sheet that they have given I will not name the people it was certain person's house that uh the background is that there was a certain house which was being used by the team and one day one of the atheist guy came in he and he came and asked the ATS is this maharashtraction yes so this", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-66", "text": "the ATS is this maharashtraction yes so this guy came in and he asked the Intel Jesse are there that can you show me that house that was after Purity has been arrested and the so-called investigation is on so he showed him the house and then here somehow the officer there had something and they went back so suddenly they saw that this guy is rubbing something from a bag onto the floor and next day the forensic people came in they said neither this isn't uh it's from the uh the recovery itself becomes suspect on the ground that ATS Mumbai may have planted the RTX traces RDX traces to implicate him and the accused person in the case this is from the chart sheet page number 4748. it gets buried somewhere all these reports no no this this is the charge sheet that Nia has filed in the trial court wherein the Nia has said that it was yeah it was planted it is suspect that it was planted in spite of that man", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-67", "text": "that it was planted in spite of that man didn't come out he was still prosecuted he was still under prosecution yeah he's being still prosecuted in fact believe me what a fantastic field operator the day my case got over I took the first flight to Bombay sorry Mumbai now they call it we still used to the Tidy of calling it Bombay I flew back down to Mumbai I spent an evening with him just to motivate him I said prashad medical Leona um the Lord is there believe in the god and I after whatever I have seen and this is all documentary evidence he's been implicated he's been badly implicated now if a agency says to the force that this is what has been done Forge somewhere becomes Duty Bound to You know be part of the to support that investigation but but when this happened with him I remember very well I was on the beat no support was given to him like he was given on a platter to the civilian agencies that you", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-68", "text": "on a platter to the civilian agencies that you take him or investigate him for Hindu Terror and Allah but but you you people were still there in the Army you were in the end core how did it feel you see again the same thing once a narrative is created it takes a little time to it comes as a shocker yeah but then you start Innovation you know we we all have our ways to find out so right he he is now under Cloud his operations come under Cloud okay now those who are indulging or those who have been told to do covert Ops as part of military intelligence as part of raw operations IB operations how do you motivate them foreign there are a few other examples when all this happened um I himself he has very explicitly written that I don't think I can need to you know use the same words he's so explicitly he's written it a very honorable man at least he stood up to write this um are they in books no no court there is a", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-69", "text": "are they in books no no court there is a foreign foreign at that time there was so much of outrage uh this is the kind of demand that this the civilian population in our country whether it is politician whether it is common that this this shame cannot be tolerated foreign but it is not taken down lying down foreign [Music] foreign uh I really don't know if but yes let me first uh you know what happens I'll I'll give you a background is not the first time that this kind of a ID took place with a whole bus got burnt sometimes in May 2004 . foreign in fact if you look into the history the maximum terrorists either if they're killed on the line of control but in the hinterland mostly it is a it's a den [Music] again I say I was very lucky to have you know worked under certain very bold generals very upright generals so in fact I was just seeing uh General Dylan's video so it's similar situation you've just taken over and yoga", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-70", "text": "similar situation you've just taken over and yoga exactly something like this happened and probably it would have been a pattern or something general we had just taken over as GOC Victor Force is and he gave me a task that we need to I was then just a media but my your reputation reaches before you precedes you so he said I don't know somehow but you need to start took some time again you have to start making building assets it takes time why then December another vehicle in fact one of the company commanders he was he had come to the sector headquarters and while he was going back he was moving in a single vehicle it was a civil vehicle and 11 people died but this was a rural area where this ID took place and then we literally by then had established our networks there was seven of them you know two years maximum if it is a not a very uh you know hot field then maybe two and a half years but in a hot field about 24 months by about the", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-71", "text": "in a hot field about 24 months by about the 20th month you're posting is in I continued for 42 months one Singleton now and literally she started telling me if you're not interested in this marriage tell me I'll send you a divorce notice but then there was a task ahead I don't know fortunately for one character one terrorist or fortunately for me or my family I got promoted to full girl but I went there as a major I did my complete Lieutenant kernel no matter half of my about one year as a major and then I was there for my full left in Carlton you know I got promoted to full Colonel there and then because of the promotion uh vacancy had to be you know it's a circle people have to be moved so I was moved out so one chap was left it literally finished off the completion you you were saying seven Terror you zeroed on to seven seven main people who are ID experts okay eliminated and how did you eliminate them same coin meaning they were using IDs", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-72", "text": "you eliminate them same coin meaning they were using IDs so wherever they were hiding they were just asked once come out if don't ID so you would in the initially you were talking about when we had started the conversation you said your naughty schedule separatist groups here or Kashmir separatist groups there's a difference between them can you explain to us see uh if you go into the northeastern history um they were warriors nagas and northeasternals they were tribals they were warriors traditionally just that they had a change of mind that they don't want to be with India but they were basically Warriors so when they got the gun in their hands they were good at it they were Hunters so for them to hunt down a professional force was also there it was a nascent militancy they were kashmiris were basically not Fighters were state in fact the old there's a old joke about it that when Sheikh Abdullah was trying to create a force or something so um [Laughter] initially", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-73", "text": "a force or something so um [Laughter] initially when the Insurgency started they were in numbers they were very high but they were not Fighters the change of events started sometimes in 92 when the foreign terrorists started moving in the Afghan started coming in the somalis came in the sudanis came in the Jihad see it started as a freedom fighters what they said was given a choice at that time they would tease us it's like a Pakistani match with India Pakistan match where they will you know clap for Pakistan it's basically to tease you so Pakistan was a teaser but that was the kind of a situation now 35 years down the line 36 years down the line now they have also become little because they became more professional so it wasn't it seen first time policy makers didn't they realize that you have to eliminate a say it's a loud thing you have to eliminate and you have to crush the huriyad before it becomes a motivational Force there was survived attempts on", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-74", "text": "a motivational Force there was survived attempts on his life so why was that our foreign policy was dictating our stand and foreign policy was made by the policy makers so probably this kind of a ruthless killing or something was not part of the policy and it should not be also uh for again I see there are elements then there are elements and then there are defensators a large number of fence centers it was a Sufi culture violence level whoa they were they were terrorists okay they were hardcore chores foreign yeah so they were willing to talk on that lines once you are part of India then you're part of India there's nothing in talking about it they had their own wisdom looking back at your life would you have done things differently what would you have done things differently in your life in the Forge not really I would have probably done things like this only as I said I am the last man I would like to kill anybody yes we were younger maybe you know we have a", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-75", "text": "yes we were younger maybe you know we have a hierarchy so when we came into position we were able to you know influence the policy makers or whatever I was fortunate I I got the opportunity to have worked with senior peoples most of the time but um journalist young journalist your thought probably was as much as you saw then as you grow your wisdom increases you further grow you become into policy making I unfortunately never reached a stage where I could be a policy maker had I been probably I wouldn't address the things that you know peace is very very important peace is very very important you you have to work it basically on two things you mentioned many times about narrative building and the role of the media you feel that the media played a dirty role in in what it did or it was used as a tool what do you think or was it naive in being used where in my case and the others and in the cool case you seem it was a narrative which was actually badly", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-76", "text": "it was a narrative which was actually badly used it was badly used mediation intent media when when when you say that journalism with a honor or journalism with this sorry it didn't they should have done their homework better because for them immediately they need is that they should be visible so certain journalists did what they did was to be visible I said uh you people as we know did some operations within outside you uh never speak about it foreign is the biggest of them all but continuously Bombay used to get hit Delhi used to get hit foreign people writing articles I actually then came to know what that there is this graph moving around 2010 we came in 2012 we were moved out but the world did not exactly know whether we have been literally disbanded or not or what it is but it was in 2013 that our we started being Expo we started getting exposed badly after uh General sings rally with the honorable prime minister in rewari if you recollect that was on the 5th", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-77", "text": "rewari if you recollect that was on the 5th of September and from 19th of September it was a blood screen somebody in the system was not very happy about you know the present government to come in and uh General V K was getting associated with the prime minister at that State the two being prime minister at that stage and anything and everything wrong was being published and certain leaks were being made if you see that graph it comes down like this graph of Terror incident Terror incidents when we came in that time two major blasts leave the 2611 but two major blasts had taken place in this country one was in Varanasi on a in the heart and then there was a trial blast in a car parking in Delhi high court and thereafter there was a major blast in Delhi in front of the dairy High Court it's part of the task we activated all our assets that we had literally we had made in our lifetimes you see people see one blast happening people don't see those hundreds", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-78", "text": "one blast happening people don't see those hundreds that have not happened that have not happened um and as far as always concerned of his sahab yeah and say it's a login I can assure you her TSD being there okay we were good I would say we were the best um foreign [Laughter] [Music] dispensation there are no bomb blasts right now there are no uh you know Terror attacks there's a lot of Peace in the country let's not convert so we have talked about all your TST operations your operations before joining TST in Kashmir your long 10 News uh which is uh you have you must have done in your long career must have done a lot of operations which is your favorite operation or as which you're proud of as an interoperative you know when it comes to Army uh it's seen as a killing machine when it comes to no not the Indian I'm in the Army when it comes to counterterrorism operations people you know but again as I said our army is also", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-79", "text": "know but again as I said our army is also a peace broker it works to get the peace in place and a lot of small actions very small actions can lead to good results and it actually shows people don't realize foreign Give an example a long time back I had moved to tripura and I was told that you were being your team is being moved to nagaland so it took about since I was going to nagaland for the first time again asset building is the initial this thing so we created certain assets I'm they have a very structured organization this is a separate group separatist group it's a we they call the undergrounds they're not even called the separatists they have a very very structured organization they have a political setup they have a military setup they have the military ranks okay and they have again battalions they've got their Town commands so there was one of the a very deadest Town Commander those days of koima any collections that happen they call it tax collection it's basically", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-80", "text": "that happen they call it tax collection it's basically extortion everything that happens in there is he's the boss so what happens is when you go in you mark that okay these These are the guys I need to look for so one day very good information came in and this guy was I wasn't team up at that time and this guy the information came that he's in a particular house so took a small team one company commander of the Assam rifles again a good man very great man and uh jumped across the wall into the house it was so safe a house in fact when I jumped up to you know put my push myself so I prefer to fall inside the because the aim was that when the hands bleeding I opened the door and uh the house was covered according and the first thing is you knock the door you knocked the door the door wasn't opening by then break the door so I kicked the door and probably the person inside was opening the door at that time so", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-81", "text": "person inside was opening the door at that time so it's open and there was a lady who was there and she went a little back Joe in former Thousand Years so by then everybody went in they picked him up took him to another room to dress him up and little I suddenly saw that this ladies caring she's pregnant I said when are you expecting it she says three days it was not exactly an opportunity for me to do it but it was as I said I'm that we're very spiritual person and uh I somehow felt probably this guy has come because she's about to okay so I said you sit down got a glass of water told somebody he gave her a glass of water and uh then I called that company Commander I said I said here okay sir you've seen it to me I said sir uh it's about 11 30 in the night because there is an information it has been passed to the headquarters everybody knows that it's a you know valuable Target foreign", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-82", "text": "knows that it's a you know valuable Target foreign [Music] those days why start with that guy and I told him I don't know how much of a Christian you are but as I'll take I will not take this sin if your child dies I will cannot live with that I shall get you some other day today is your day thank you baby for it and we came back of course somebody did tell us [Music] but I felt good I'm telling you I felt good and there was no aim there was no future that was planned key I will use that lady as an asset or something nothing of that sort it was just purely human you see that is how we as and most of us are we we are a very spiritual Nation we are a very you know sensitive Nation to a lot of things and uh but believe me I didn't realize that this one nice Act will help me some other day I got posted I uh literally the entire leadership of nse9 that was in", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-83", "text": "the entire leadership of nse9 that was in nagaland was picked up and I was overnight removed after that we go again the retributions were likely and some got no unknown reason that I was again posted back to nagaland in 99. well this this incident happened this is in 95 95 and you go back again in 1999 okay and sometimes in December January 99 2000 the then CM used to be MRC Jamir who was later Governor Goa again a man with I don't know how many lives he's been attacked so many times once in fact he was strolling inside the nagaland house in Delhi and on the Earth Trail Orangevale Road came in and shot him inside the nagaland house he survived five minutes this time when he was going from dimapur to kohima there were 13 IEDs laid for him simultaneously 39 is blown he survived fortunately he survived but the what had happened in 97 after this political leadership had been picked up they felt the dent in the organization", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-84", "text": "been picked up they felt the dent in the organization and by 97 and the CNN was on in talks with the government so there was a ceasefire and a ceasefire monitoring group was opened up from both sides so they had their representatives the Army had their own representatives and uh because of this act though NSE and I am kept saying no we have a ceasefire with the central government and not with the state government so the Assam rifle IG who was an army officer of course he went and locked the ceasefire monitoring group Office of the nsinai now every August it used to be you know re-signed so 2000 it went away August was saying new or most the chances of the ceasefire getting abrogated was there by January everybody was having you know because again it was it was an attempt for peace the ceasefire and it was an attempt for fees from both sides and uh then one did the same IG called me he says honey can you do something I know you have contacts", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-85", "text": "honey can you do something I know you have contacts I said let me try so now I started where I go I went back looking for this lady because that was the best and I knew her husband holds a good position in the I am you could call in a favor also now I thought it was time I so I found out where the ladies she was in a cruel again the foreign there was a very old gentleman who was the chairman of their society that's called the tank very fine man I spoke to him I said I need to meet this lady till then I really did not know that this lady was the sister of the nag Army chief I I did something when when you have an intent you start you know investigating finding when you don't have an intent it's just another thing that has happened and it's over so I met her this was ceasefire times so I never carried a weapon with me I just used to carry a dagger so I pulled out", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-86", "text": "used to carry a dagger so I pulled out my dagger it's a very tribal thing they gave her the tiger and I said give to your husband from my side I said I want to meet him he's not a I said where she said I also don't know but he generally comes to dimapur he has a friend there so I took the friends location again I went back to them 17 met this guy late in the evening so this was sometimes in December or January I said I'm so and so so this guy says here I've heard this or I've heard the story about this he was his friend so literally would it sometimes discussed it he said uh we were sitting I said he said he might come in February that's what he told me last night he was having a drink nagaland is a dry state so he offered me a wine he said sir would you like to have I said I had one glass he offered me the second he said one is for the enemy two", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-87", "text": "the second he said one is for the enemy two is for the friend so I said and sadly somebody called out from outside this is you very lucky he's come that guy whom I wanted to meet that's husband the town Commander he said he's come he's just called from outside that she kept shouted from outside instead of ringing a bell or something so I said listen I had come with a lot of you know in intention good intentions so God is kind don't worry so now this guy comes in and this time I'm sitting there with the Shivan face and so there were two of them who came in this guy was a little uncomfortable when he saw a non-naga sitting in the house I could see that suspicion in at the end of the day he's a militant he's an underground so I spoke to him in nagamis again and I said do you recognize me so you remember August 95 you were caught in your left believe me that guy came into", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-88", "text": "in your left believe me that guy came into savdhan and he saluted me and then he took this friend of his inside and whatever they chatted a friend came out he said sir he said what do you what do you want I said listen I want this is far back very important for the peace that's a tall ask I knew it in the entire nsa9 this was the only guy who would trust me you see a man comes in you have shown your face the human face so that is the only way he can trust me and uh so he said sir you come in the morning tomorrow and you'll get a message I'll try and see where if I can arrange something so next day I went the message was there that you go to go to a particular restaurant alone no weapon so I picked up my vehicle I went to the restaurant it was a bright Sunday I still remember very bright sunny day it was a Sunday so when I entered the restaurant it was something like when you enter", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-89", "text": "entered the restaurant it was something like when you enter a cinema Hall you can't see anything I was trying to you know adjust my eyes in the darkness and suddenly I felt a metal behind me so somebody with a gun somebody pushed me with a pistol and very you know very very strongly that guy was speaking the okay and he sat down so this guy was soft that guy was being you know that audition huh regression so I told him I said listen in this entire Army in this area today you I'm the only one you can trust because when we were at War I showed my human angle today we are in peace only that the ceasefire has been abrogated it's not being signed so who do you trust I have ruined my credentials as a good man then that guy mellowed down literally said what do you want I said I want this ceasefire back so he says sir I said listen let's not keep egos here you put a finger on any building in", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-90", "text": "egos here you put a finger on any building in the mapper he will get you that is meeting ended I pulled out my wallet to pay now this same guy was so aggressive he says nicer you are our guest Alfie came out this is where I was back on him Amazing Story sometimes uh I'd rather say one should always be a good human being in the worst of these situations there are people we need to look after them uh so you have had a very long career in the end core I know a lot of young officers from the Encore who talk who praise you that they have learned from you their teammates others when you joined in the end core who was your ustad who was your Guru who who was who was honeybakshi for you I was a rookie even in fact when we came in you not believe I went for my proper official intelligence training in my sixth year of service okay because we were direct I mean so naturally you had to be an apprentice under", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-91", "text": "so naturally you had to be an apprentice under somebody uh in the Army we have a lot of things about ranks yes initially they used to be a GCO in maps and this this was which year 1990 uh terrorism had started huh I got commissioned in 88 89 we went for an infantry attachment in 90 I was there in Kashmir there was this Json apps with our Cara um captain retirement is he taught me such small nuances of Life I'll give you a simple example don't know we're going to meet a source in some location so I felt like going for a leak um he came from behind he gave me a pat is actually you were going as a kufia we were both going to meet somebody and we were in open no vehicle no nothing just two of us one pistol each and uh that's fresh like but like he taught me those small nuances survival tactic that you got to understand the culture you got to understand everything of the place once you're here", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-92", "text": "to understand everything of the place once you're here is it rookie not even three months in the rather it was not even two months in the uh intelligence and uh another thing that he taught me which actually took me a long way anybody he discussed he went back and he wrote and he kept those Diaries as logs because you see he left I left what is in the memory goes with you correct institutional memory is very important very very important so used to write those logs and he very small things but I've been trying to look for him and now finally I've been able to find out that he's somewhere in kumao so I'll ask my regimental Center to give me his address I really want to go and meet him once I wouldn't have been sitting here and talking to you had it not been it's been a very Illuminating conversation and we've learned a lot from listening about the trials and tribulations and the interesting life that you'd LED rewarding also uh to a great extent but", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "c284a77fb99d-93", "text": "LED rewarding also uh to a great extent but life is a mix it's a mix it's a mix it's a mix and uh and it's also a learning experience for us that how much our written word impacts on lives and for us to learn from the negatives and the positives of your life thank you so much sir for coming to our studio and being part of this conversation my pleasure my pleasure thank you thank you for watching or listening in to this conversation with colonel hanibakshi please like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen or heard this on namaste foreign [Music]", "source": "SSd8G321VJg"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-0", "text": "today a flop actor earns more than the top performing editor in this industry and we are all in the business of content people want to comment on your life on your family on your journalism if you disagree with me disagree with me on subjects don't make it personal men still get the wrong message a lot of time newsrooms are full of predators and some of those who were let go off are back in positions of Power are being legitimized in more ways than one and what are we doing about it a lot of people write to me and every time I put a photo on Instagram people are like which is nice but I want to tell you and everyone else that you'll be back I will be back it'll be a better show hopefully and uh I want to do the show when I'm ready when I know it's going to work welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is palki Sharma upadhyay you've seen her on many television channels she has been reporting and", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-1", "text": "on many television channels she has been reporting and anchoring and especially on we on television she had a show called gravitas which was very successful I spoke to her on a number of issues on television news the future the past what it means like to be a TV journalist open to a lot of criticism male bosses the glass ceiling and the future ahead take a look Balki thank you so much for coming to Ani podcast with Smitha prakash I'm so glad you're here want to chat so much about journalism where TV journalism is headed uh women in TV but first I want to start with your show gravitas which you uh it was a path making show that you did on Beyond and it was kind of different you know like um of course everybody liked your style of presentation and everything but you decided to go swim against the tide instead of doing debates you know you decided that this explainer style that you will do uh was it your idea was it the channel and uh did you", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-2", "text": "your idea was it the channel and uh did you how did you manage to stick on with that idea despite the pressures probably to be like the others right first of all thank you for having me here it's always a pleasure to talk to you you're so kind you always say nice things about me so when you asked me for this I said okay I have to come and talk to you uh about the show um I've been in anchor for about 20 years now and um over the years I have done different slots and I've seen TV newsrooms and TV news evolve and I really enjoyed doing what I was doing because I could write I could say what I wanted to do say experiment in 2014 I think I first did my nine o'clock debates this was before you had done reporting on ground reporting yeah and and a lot of anchoring like I started with the breakfast show I you know moved on to different slots I I really enjoyed the breakfast show because that's the time when most of the", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-3", "text": "show because that's the time when most of the leaders editors are away so you can really experiment and do your own thing and nobody bothers if if you're not making some ghastly mistakes on air uh but like I said 20 40 14 is when I did the first debates and um I was miserable I did not I did not enjoy it because you know I I'm not I don't like being uncivil okay and that's what TV news had become and I I just went home very unhappy and I was so miserable that I left TV and I thought I've left it for good uh but it did not last so when I came back I was very clear that these are things that I'm not going to do and uh I did not even frankly come to do a nine o'clock or a prime time show I was told to do something on South Asia which I thought was a good idea and I could you know create my own content and sort of do something um somebody put it very", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-4", "text": "and sort of do something um somebody put it very nicely that that was the time when the channel was also taking shape so it was benign ignorance on the part of some or we just we just um I was very clear that I did not want too many Talking Heads uh or too many I did not want acrimony if people are talking they should make their point and move on and over the years you one also interacted with people who were not in the news industry and when you asked them they would say um you know people are watching all kinds of content right um I think because they were not getting value for their time and Beyond a point how much damage I mean if you really had to watch it you would probably watch Big Boss yeah I I so I thought and I was also not I was not enjoying it I'm sure there are people who are good at it and there is there is a market for reality TV and there are people who enjoy it but it was not me", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-5", "text": "are people who enjoy it but it was not me so that's where we started um I had a good team and the show evolved when it began I I don't think any of us had this idea that okay this is how it's going to be we took it one day at a time we did the stories that we liked uh sometimes it worked sometimes it did not work we just we just went with the tide I had an editor who was uh very open to experimentation did you do uh things that you thought the audience wanted or did you do like okay this is how we're going to do news how does it work I think it's a mix of both uh you do if if you're putting out something you want people to watch it and you want to be aligned with what they're thinking and increasingly in TV I think people come to you as much for information as for validation uh you know people write to you saying I read this story why didn't you do it if you've already read the story", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-6", "text": "you do it if you've already read the story why do you want to hear it from me you already know what it is so people come for all sorts of things and you you want to be in sync with what they're thinking but there are also times when you want to do a story because you you want to do that story like abortion in the U.S you know that story did not get us views uh and we went to town with it and and because some of us felt very strongly about it and we thought that even if this does not have an audience or the kind of audience that we're used to we'll still do it and we'll still lead with it because this is an important story so I I guess you have to sort of arrive at a balance and do a mix of both but I'll get to the abortion story and foreign news and you know the lack of interest at times in India for events which are happening outside of India unless it directly impacts on India that's there's", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-7", "text": "unless it directly impacts on India that's there's a lot that I've seen that happens but anyway I'll come to that but again the explainer bit which I asked you you know uh how did you get to that that okay this is my story and this is the explainer that I'm going to do uh uh I think it a lot of it came from personal experience I'm I'm raising two children who are very curious and who ask questions and I remember uh going to Israel just before prime minister modi's visit and I came back and I was telling something and my son was I think still five or six years old and then after I finished everything he said but you've not told me what's a Jew um and uh although he was young but I I it it sort of that was a penny drop moment that that there are a lot of people out there you know we we deal with abbreviations and acronyms and we assume that everyone's on the same page and we don't simplify and we", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-8", "text": "the same page and we don't simplify and we use long sentences and very convoluted ideas and a TV viewer does not have a the luxury of going back to now they do when they watch it on the phone but you know even when we were taught we were told that in a newspaper you can reread that same line thrives to make sense and I still try to read some of those you know quote copies which make no sense to me on the front page one sentence is a paragraph long but for the TV audience you know you have to to make your content accessible the onus is on you to get people to watch and not on them to watch uh so so we try to simplify the so this uh the whole process of this simplification or explanation the criticism many people make uh especially print journalists make is that this simplification is actually dumbing down you're you're presuming that your viewer doesn't know things but like you said that that's our job to make things understandable to everyone", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-9", "text": "that's our job to make things understandable to everyone not just the Specialists who are who are clicking your story because they are lobbied journalists or reading or think tankers who want to know about Ukraine situation it's not those people it's across the board right that's what you were saying if I'm not wrong yes and it's important to to decide who is your audience uh for me it was a blank slate and I remember telling my team once that everyone who understands English should want to watch if they're watching news in English they should want to watch what we're doing that's a very broad segment to cater to if you if you if you attend strategy meetings they'll give you TG 15 to 45 or Advertiser is looking at 25 to that's a very they try to restrict it yeah but I'm saying that anyone who understands understands English and wants to make sense of what's happening in the U.S midterm election should want to come and watch you so then you have to", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-10", "text": "to come and watch you so then you have to make it accessible to all so here uh you know your show even though it was like on an English Channel you had viewers who were non you know whose language primary language was not English people still liked it simply because some of them who I've spoken to was because they they agreed with your editorial line you pakka took an editorial line you didn't uh it was an editorial show it was a it was the edit page of the channel huh that's that's how we you were ready for that at that stage you didn't think both sides of the point that neutral neutrality is um I remember reading something very interesting that that uh in the pre-digitization age of news credibility was a commodity both sidism was something that that news media sort of adopted as a strategy because the advertiser wanted a broader section of the audience to watch and to try and buy what they were selling so it wasn't an ethical decision it was a market a business decision okay", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-11", "text": "ethical decision it was a market a business decision okay yeah but with uh and um with the Advent of digital uh you know news in the internet uh things opened up a lot and now we are not looking at all the viewers even if I mean we would want everyone to watch but we are looking at audience communities and audience communities are held by some glues like identity like ideology like an editorial line so that we we are not looking at we are not looking for people to only watch our news we want people to watch like share comment hmm interact completely and they will do they will be compelled to do it only when they something resonates so uh also what are we doing in our reporting uh we are looking at what Trump has tweeted or what Biden has tweeted and doing breaking news of that so I'm already on Twitter I've already seen it I don't need you to do that either you make sense of what this tweet means for me uh or just I I don't need you that", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-12", "text": "me uh or just I I don't need you that there was a time when we were relaying to the people what people in power are doing or saying but now that communication is direct okay so journalism that as we learned it was what happened when it happened where it happened why it happened that is already being communicated that's already done yeah yeah so you want to go beyond you think you have to evaluate yeah you were value-adding in your show that you did but you'd already done that part of Journalism first obviously because that the reporting yeah you you grew up doing that and that's that but then you keep do going back to it also right you went to Ukraine you did that reporting to you feel that as anchors it's necessary to do reporting as well to add you know to be with the story I don't think only as anchors uh I think we we started an experiment which worked very well over the last one year not just anchors even the people who are writing the people", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-13", "text": "just anchors even the people who are writing the people on desk our accompanying me uh to the field for assignments because the age of again restricting uh a journalist to the desk or to input or to research or to guest relations is fast um getting over hmm I think the person who's writing a story on your crane on the desk uh will be able to write a much better story if he also appreciates the logistical challenges that a reporter faces what happens on the ground so and also you could say that for whatever reasons resource but but we decided that an anchor can be a reporter can also be a writer can also do research we have we have to learn all the functions of a newsroom so with the quad Summit in Japan with Ukraine with Sri Lanka I've had a traditional desk writers go with me see what happens on the field talk to people and really when they came back they came back with a a much wider understanding of what it takes to build a story and greater", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-14", "text": "of what it takes to build a story and greater sensitivity because you know many very often I the frustration one faces is that when you know a cameraman has or a Stringer or a reporter Whoever has taken great trouble to get a story from the ground but it gets killed at the table at the edit table it happens in print also you know where there's a ground report and it's like from some remote part of India uh you know like maybe a naxal uh you know who has surrendered gone back to society started a school of his own has 15 students whom he's teaching and his wife is also joining in it's a human interest story comes in from one very difficult part now the reporter the cameraman would have gone and got it with such great difficulty it never makes it to newspapers it never makes it to the mainstream media it's just not of Interest this is where I feel that especially small town reporters have this problem you know that their stories never get told", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-15", "text": "this problem you know that their stories never get told yeah I I think when you when you throw people at the deep end and make them do what someone else is doing it also builds empathy they understand what the other person goes through to bring something to the table like you said or or even people in the PCR all all kinds of functions I've tried to really experiment over the past amalgamate people who are writing stories have been told to manage an event and they've done fabulously well and they also feel that they're growing they're not chained to their desk as it were so there's there's a lot of talk that happens at the TV uh you know the whole model of TV is so trp driven and that is why you are facing a credibility problem in the sense that people don't trust television news anymore do you agree with that view I think I agree with that to the extent that that uh in the attempt to go viral we are sometimes making a mockery of ourselves", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-16", "text": "viral we are sometimes making a mockery of ourselves and while people may be consuming something that has gone has gone virally you'll get the views but then it's a it's a slippery slope then they'll never come back to you for something they will not they will not trust you like you said there's a credibility crisis and all of it stems I feel really bad for reporters who are mocked at when they do something really silly on the on you know your your bathtub btcs and all of those things yeah they're really pushed to deliver and to do something different and so the problem is not with that reporter or that anchor the problem is with the editor who's letting it go on air I I don't want to make a sweeping statements but I think that in the media industry in general and in India in particular we have a leadership crisis more than a credibility crisis okay we are not trying to innovate we are not experimenting neither with the business model nor with the content", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-17", "text": "neither with the business model nor with the content formats uh I'm I look at memes and WhatsApp forwards and they're they're mocked at all the time what's up but WhatsApp forwards have so much more creativity than say a pollution story the story has not changed ten years later we are telling the same story in the same way but people are coming up with so many better ways to say the same thing on social media so why is that create is that creativity missing in the newsrooms I would not like to believe that I think people sitting at the top don't want to do anything different the pandemic forced us to to sorry to to make some changes in terms of Technology had it not happened maybe we would have we would have kept sending Obi Vans 10 years later to do this I mean we are not experimenting same with business models today or the person who's starting in a newsroom is earning less than your domestic help yeah that's so why would good talent stay yeah and why would they", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-18", "text": "why would good talent stay yeah and why would they be inspired to do something else uh I've been in this line for 30 years you've also been in this line for two decades those the journalists who were coming to us were people who had taken the civil services not cleared it and then came to journalism in the you know 30 20 years later but now you know journalism schools have mushroomed we have thousands of news channels uh you know legal illegal satellite TV if I if I count the YouTube channels and everybody literally we have doing content Hindi uh Regional languages English there are jobs Galore but nobody stays there is there is a frustration that kids feel uh when they join journalism they're not able to stay on in the profession why is there so much of lack of talent what is it even though there are so many journalists who are being churned out from uh these institutes um people ask what is their growth path and how do you tell the growth path I mean it's", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-19", "text": "how do you tell the growth path I mean it's it's very slow growth for sure uh the only people who stay on for two three decades are people who are either crazy and really want to do this yeah or people who are not good at it and will not find anything else anywhere yeah as as pathetic as it sounds that's how it is the really good people are moving on because how long are you going to tell them that you will not get weekends off and you will not even get the salary that your MBA cousin is getting for the next 10 years and you will have no work life balance out of question it is out of the question and and for a long time it's it's very thrilling you know to be doing things in The Newsroom to stay very late to chase a story till the very end but beyond a point everyone has emis to pay and everyone has families to look after and you you have to make it worth their while in 20 years I have never heard any", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-20", "text": "their while in 20 years I have never heard any business team come and say up to Market is recession or no recession we are always in cost cutting mode always I mean I remember going to Ukraine and I thought that um I went with the team of four and this is the Mojo age where a reporter is sent with one phone and one yeah selfie stick so I thought I've come with a big team and we'll do some great stuff and we we I'd like to believe we did we're doing stories every day we were doing a show we were trying to and then I see International Channels with teams of 30 40 people who blocked entire floors in two hotels one where they want to stay because it's a five star and one where the the view is very good because they can create a good frame and I thought there's no way we'll be able to match this because we're always going to be short of money and resources if I may go back to the era of you know uh in the", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-21", "text": "back to the era of you know uh in the 80s uh the KD of American television networks NBC ABC and all they used to come to India for all the big stories you know like Rajiv Gandhi assassination and those kind of stories and they used to come like that they you know I was working like as a you know a Stringer with them attached to them you know like a gopher that was the word you know who will get the information there was no Google if you remember those days so you have to get information and give them so that they could file their stories but they would come literally with 20 man teams and they would come with gear uh camera gear and all that gear they would book satellite uh costed hundreds of dollars no way that India could match of course we didn't have private television also in those days but what I'm trying to say is that those guys then collapsed under the weight of their own you know inability to budget their news they they shut bureaus across", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-22", "text": "budget their news they they shut bureaus across the world international news went off their thing they depended on agencies to cover international news they couldn't do it India on the other hand it's been lean and mean because samara's resources that's fine I I get your point you should not overspend at the end of the day it's a business and you have to look at the bottom line and you have to make it work for everyone but I'm saying that we are not we are not ready to stretch the limits of our imagination today a flop actor earns more than the top performing editor in this industry and we are all in the business of content so why is it that we cannot up I I love giving this example a documentary on Chernobyl will be watched on Netflix with a 500 rupee subscription but the same documentary on a TV news channel will not be watched documentaries what the sales team will tell you because we are not investing if you you know what we did in my in my", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-23", "text": "you you know what we did in my in my show it was resource investment it's very easy to get guests most of whom are not paid uh they're just you know yeah they're not paid and they just come and they give their time and we create content and it takes a lot of effort I'm sure for the anchor to put himself or herself out there every day to discuss a lot of topics and and you know uh it's important way of doing content content yeah but if you're going to if you're going to build one hour of content you need writers you need editors you need uh people who design Graphics you need video that is resource investment yeah so I I think that there are gains to be made and I I think it will make business sense if we create a good product because people are now spoiled for Choice okay see um there was this a whole talk about the amount of influence that uh say a BBC or an Al Jazeera has if you see the number of if you see their", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-24", "text": "if you see the number of if you see their population of UK right and you compare that with one channel of BBC and the international influence that it has and compare that with India's population we probably have more TV uh you know people who have TVs uh are probably seven or eight times the population of UK and yet we don't have an international Channel even though we have so many domestic channels is it time now for India or Indian channels to invest in making a global Channel you know of of course Beyond was there but it doesn't really have that impact of being you know of of being a mover and shaker like say an Al Jazeera or a BBC I think we are 10 10 20 years late we should have done it then we should definitely if there's an urgent need for us to to do this uh to take control of the narrative to tell our story right and to tell it to the whole world and there is a market you know uh you mentioned Beyond uh by the by the time I left only", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-25", "text": "Beyond uh by the by the time I left only 40 of our audience was based in India sixty percent was outside India and these were not just nris these were people from all over the world all ethnicities all countries who were engaging with us who were writing to us and and that shows that the world is interested in what we have to say in our pers in our perspective in our point of view I remember earlier this summer uh we were in Dubai and and we were having lunch and we asked for the check and it came with a huge slice of cake and I said I did not order it and so the head chef came and he said this is from the rajapaksas sorry what I'm a Sri Lankan I watch your coverage sitting in Dubai on Sri Lanka from a channel that that's run out of Noida and he says I I really like what you say and this is complementary and so you you strike a chord I think there is so much to be done we're not", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-26", "text": "think there is so much to be done we're not thinking big not on an Institutional level and not as a country level do you think the government should have done I mean there was this DD International nobody will believe the government language right it may not fly and and see it's a if the government does it then you will say that they're peddling their agenda if they don't do it then they are blamed for not you know supporting at the end of the day if you're talking about free media and a business that you have to create a business model that is going to work yeah that's that's exactly what I said that at the leadership level people are not thinking big enough so why on the other hand if I was to come back to audiences why is it that Indians are not really interested in international news all that much if you watch the debates if you just see Prime Time prime time is rarely anything to do with international news other than Pakistan and that also if they have done something", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-27", "text": "than Pakistan and that also if they have done something like attacking us or if they are collapsing because of whatever reason you know there's a coup or there is a jalsa or something like that like an Imran Khan issue it's that or else if it is China galwan that's a story Ukraine somehow captured a little bit of news not just because of the Indian students but it did capture a little bit of but other than that international news is just hardly anywhere because we don't do it we don't do it like that you know we I I I think um the Indian audience is more aware and interested and invested in what's happening in the world then then people in a lot of other especially in the West they're very inward looking I also remember reading the study that said that uh people in developing countries are more interested in in global Affairs than people in developed countries who don't want to look Beyond what's happening in their life you know there is a higher chance of an Indian", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-28", "text": "you know there is a higher chance of an Indian being able to tell which city Falls in which state in the U.S than an American being vice versa yeah correct so we are interested but we have to like I said make that story accessible if you start giving out results of the midterm election without explaining to the viewer the format and how it is different from our elections then beyond a point they lose interest I think Americans only don't understand what their elections are about that's another point but it's so complicated and the results take ever so long uh so they themselves don't know but you're right like you said that there's a lot of ignorance about see that also comes with a great deal of prosperity they don't need to know they don't need to know right whereas in India Indians are very politically aware why because we interact so much or in ordinary Indians need to know police the need to interact is great because they control everything right so that's why but yeah uh so", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-29", "text": "control everything right so that's why but yeah uh so you think that it's the it's the editors or the owners of Television uh media who are uh you know probably don't have there's a dissonance that they don't understand what the viewers want possibly and they don't want to uh a lot of them are busy copying each other so um you had a successful show in uh Beyond and you know like you were what one saw in social media was like and probably it's them that I realized you know that there was so much of a fan following you had so why did you leave when you were doing so well why at the top then why did you leave it's always better to leave at the top and now you're sounding like no no I left because I thought that uh whatever I wanted to do I had done this um and uh I I Envision for I don't want to sound pompous but but what I'm doing and the team that I'm creating in a certain way and uh if", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-30", "text": "I'm creating in a certain way and uh if I'm not being able to do that uh to my satisfaction then I don't want to do it and I think uh in that sense I'm lucky that I can just just walk out of something and say and I've done it in the past I don't like something I just say I don't want to do this I will find something else and life has been good and I have struggled and sort of that died as you as you put it sometimes and it's it's been but but I found my path so I was again not enjoying uh what I was doing I I did not like the direction that we were taking I think um I think the the we were we were doing news curation and we had to we had to move to the next step and we had to tell the India story in a more compelling fashion I think somewhere um I I did not I did not see that happening Beyond a point so tell me uh you were talking", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-31", "text": "Beyond a point so tell me uh you were talking about reporters you know like those who have to do uh wear combat clothes in The Newsroom or they have to uh you know do a flood story with water around them because of Graphics in a bathtub so these are decisions that the reporter can't take yeah what about the anchor can the anchor decide what is the story what is the storyline in all channels because you've worked in several channels how much clout does an anchor hold in deciding uh what should be the storyline and how will I take this forward I think it depends on the anchor okay there are anchors and I'm I'm not saying prime time or non-prime time there are anchors who are very clear about what they want to say and that comes through and then there are TP readers who will not be on the point you know say why is this running and and those are the anchors who who resonate with the audience who the team no no no the ones who who have a clear", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-32", "text": "no no no the ones who who have a clear point of view there can be disagreement eventually the editorial line holds in most cases I would like to believe but uh in my career I've seen anchors who have gone up to the editor and said I'm not okay it happened with me I remember once um I always like to write what I'm going to say in my words even though there are very good copy editors I like to I like I feel more confident okay if I have done the typing and uh and so I remember what I I wrote um I went to the studio and then while I was reading of the teleprompter I saw that somebody had changed my lines and uh said very clearly that this is why you should not vote for such and such party wow I would never say that right and so when the and and halfway through the sentence I corrected myself and I said something else and I ended it the way I wanted and then I went out and I asked who has", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-33", "text": "and then I went out and I asked who has done this and they said the editor changed the lines and I went to that editor and I said that without consulting yes and uh this was before we on I have to say um and I said you will not do this and he was taken by surprise because I don't think he was used to being challenged and I said this is not done and I will not accept it and if you disagree with what I'm saying you have to tell me and you have to convince me and yeah I did not stay there for very long after that but but this happens yeah that's what I wanted to say is this a one-off thing or does it happen very often with people I think it also depends on I mean people don't mess with people who call them out and and yeah say that that you won't do this and it's hard right because you're already on air yeah and you're reading and mid-sentence to change the sentence to realize somebody has played", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-34", "text": "to change the sentence to realize somebody has played funny yeah yeah the fight in The Newsroom before is a different matter but on air these kind of things that could happen uh those yeah and you know the the other thing is that um the I just saw uh I think it was yeah Rahul shiv Shankar uh said on air that you know um he took on when remember he McAdams yeah that thing that you know where he put the wrong name and he said he took the Flack at that time but what had happened was that whoever was feeding in the the name in the teleprompter did the mistake right now you can throw that reporter under the bus or the teleprompter operator who throw that person under the bus or you can take on the Flack yourself he says I took on that as a mistake that I made uh but this is a more serious thing which you're talking about where the editorial line is being tampered and there's a lot of difference if you take the credit", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-35", "text": "there's a lot of difference if you take the credit for the great lines that your team writes and for all the work that goes behind so you take the Flack also but when when someone has deliberately changed something because they think that you are not going to apply your mind and just read whatever is written is problematic okay and see there are many times that handouts come from governments and I'm not talking about now I'm talking about over the years handouts come that this is what you should speak today this is what is here earlier when it was India radio that you know government officers used to read the news the government and today when I hear people saying oh that was such lovely times there was no noise there was no cacophony we got the news clean uh where we had you know Salma Sultan reading it out and things after telling them that was the only news and that was written by government officers and you believed it that that's the only news that happened Pradhan", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-36", "text": "that that's the only news that happened Pradhan mantriage that's all no question yeah right today you're hearing it all you're hearing different points of view so it's noisy but at least you're getting different points of view so now when um it changed but still governments put pressure on newsrooms on editors put this out how much pushback does it happen in newsrooms you know against the government line uh so I've been out of the Congress BJP uh thing for a while now uh and uh the subjects that I dealt with uh we we willingly took I wouldn't say the government line but the India line and that sort of worked uh I think there is I think there is pushback I remember this is more than 10 years back I think [Music] um some Ministry calling up saying what is running on your ticker and so we all first of all we joked saying that if the minister is watching article then who's doing his job but those things used to happen and we would argue", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-37", "text": "those things used to happen and we would argue and sometimes not run it or or run both sides of what was going on and and and those things did did happen it's a known thing I mean the the joke or the the sarcasm used to be that there was a certain politician very powerful politician who was known as bureau chief who's who the acronym given to him was bureau chief because one he was very close to uh many senior journalists but the agenda setting was done at 5 PM in the in that child and they were deciding which anchor is going to do with story yeah those things were also happening this anchor is not good so there has always been pressure and especially Finance ministers on business channels you know there was a time there are some Ministries where you can't go against like defense is one of them I mean you will not get access yeah if you question but then you also have to see what is it's it's all very murky you know sometimes people question just", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-38", "text": "all very murky you know sometimes people question just for the sake of questions so if your question defense I've seen many times that you question and you're considered an anti-nation you're dubbed immediately yeah that one defense beat only is done by uh journalists by reporters who are Sons and Daughters of uh army officers the brats do it and uh they call themselves brats I'm not calling them but again any questioning uh even the services get very annoyed and label you and don't understand that questioning is something that a journalist has to do yeah it's not there's an anti-national bent of mind but do you feel that there's there are other beats in journalism where this happens also where they just shut access immediately I think yes yeah isn't it yeah I mean worst case scenario they'll not send a spokesperson to your channel yeah that's another thing that happens then they'll say you're not giving our side of the story but you're not giving your side of the", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-39", "text": "story but you're not giving your side of the story yourself yeah so it's become a and I I think it's a healthy fight because because no matter which side says what the fact is that channels and news platforms of all descriptions are operating in this country they're being trolled they're being questioned they're being investigated some of them but they're all running yeah so there is space for everyone and all kinds of opinion and points of view so tell me palki do you have do you think that uh uh that there are enough firewalls in place in TV channels because it's live TV right immediately stuff goes on air are they enough firewalls to um to filter out fake news and viral news which are you know not credible increasingly not no no no I think uh I think the viral editor is setting the agenda now for newsrooms purely yeah and sometimes I feel that other Twitter Channel because we are all looking at what is trending can we all send out an appeal to Elon Musk", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-40", "text": "we all send out an appeal to Elon Musk I think I don't know so there's a viral editor no it's a it's like a whatever is viral whatever is viral it's a it's wordplay whatever is viral is basically setting the agenda today this story is going viral so everyone wants to do the 8 PM or 9 pm debate on the story which is viral increasingly after covet I've seen one newspaper reading as a as a physical thing is not happening so you get your news from social media and usme your bias comes in because what comes in in your Google feed in your Facebook feed in your Twitter feed is your the bias which is then your mind that gets reflected whereas when you open a newspaper you're seeing various things we are consuming the bias of the newspaper then of the newspaper that's also a point so some social media star is a front page story just go this is but he is on the front page why there is so much else that", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-41", "text": "the front page why there is so much else that is happening in this country because the newspaper editor thinks that this is a front page hmm so there are all kinds of biases that we but see you know negotiate it's a it it's also a vicious circle because I have to see I've seen some of these experts who come on television and uh they found their way into political parties they became spokespersons also they were sitting in social media and basically with a little bit of Gyan they didn't do they didn't they didn't have a body of work behind them right but you Troll and you make these smart alec comments you get more followers more and more followers than what you're saying is becoming a hashtag you you start doing that there's nothing that you've done before or after so you it that happens now because you've got a x number of followers you make it to the TV screen you come there because you know ah people will watch retweets so you're on", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-42", "text": "know ah people will watch retweets so you're on TV screen once you're on TV screen you get called to conferences and seminars and then sponsors we'll give you sponsorship political party sit up and say aha very interesting he or she speaks very well so let's make them ideology but that's the same with film stars no film stars who become netas I mean what have they done but they have influenced Nita's Beyond a point are influencers who commit themselves to doing good work I think and I don't know how many of them end up doing it somehow we don't expect much from our natas but we expect more from journalists at least we think that actually those guys then when they become spokesperson they say social media television news research negative you know I just feel increasingly that it these uh tick tockers uh influencers they are your journalists today they are the ones uh you know who haven't gone through the rigors of Journalism but they've become your experts they are the", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-43", "text": "but they've become your experts they are the ones who are giving Yarn yeah on television so then I quite understand when people say that the TV journalism model is breaking down or has broken down so do you see any hope in the future see I I think mass communication has become a two-way street now right the viewer is telling you in real time what they're watching what they like what they don't like bouquets brick bats everything is coming as you read the news you can see the YouTube comments a lot of which are nonsense but a lot of them are also active feedback so um I I think that people who are serious about being in the business and serious about telling the stories that they want to tell Will Survive and Thrive everybody has to make that effort every day you can't be cynical you can't be saying that oh Pakistan does it all the time so this time if they have fired some rocket it's okay no it's a story every day you have to I don't", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-44", "text": "a story every day you have to I don't know if I'm making sense to you I think that I think that uh we are in a phase where where the real stars will shine and those who are not pulling their weight are going to be like it's like you know when the stone pelting used to happen in Kashmir so The Newsroom gets tired right yeah and I think no you have to go there you have to put a camera out there you it is a story and then when the stone painting stopped yeah even then it's a story it's a story you still put your camera out there and you wait and watch you have to be excited about it every day yes do you have to end as new as editors we have to tell our you know the newbies who come in or the new journalists who come in that the fact that there are no stone pelters every Friday is a story so you the cameraman also says it Demands a lot of commitment huh you know you have to be", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-45", "text": "of commitment huh you know you have to be there every day and uh I remember being told by one of my bosses something very good that that to build a relationship with your viewer if you say that you're going to be there at nine o'clock be there at nine o'clock come watch me uh that's the promise that you've made to them they have not made that promise to you they will watch one day not watch for three days then again come in but they know that you'll be there when a big story happens they'll know where to go and it takes a lot of commitment and after all these years I still can't understand how there are anchors who walk in half an hour before their show just put on makeup and sit and start reading so you still have to be a little nervous before your show you still have to at the end of a show I mean we've had so many discussions every day saying this story did not go the way we want you have to be excited yeah you", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-46", "text": "way we want you have to be excited yeah you have to be nervous you have to be you have to challenge yourself constantly only then will you survive and I think the reason for your success also is that you respect your audience uh I've I've seen that that anchors who don't who don't who are not talking down to their audience they are the ones who who resonate you know kind of a thing that matters isn't it I I think so I think people are giving you an entry into their rooms yes you know at nine o'clock when they're sitting with their family or doing whatever they're doing you know time is very valuable if you're giving me your time then I better make it worth your time spoke about bouquets and brick bats I now want to come into this which I spoke with navika and I spoke with arnab also when he was here um the mental well-being of uh women journalists and even men I guess so much hate comes in on the way", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-47", "text": "I guess so much hate comes in on the way of Love also but hate too comes in so much of trolling happens uh how do you take it I'll give you a personal example when kovit happened um and there was a a kill list you know where people put in names of people TV news anchors who should die of coveta and my name was also there in that uh thing I just took it as forget it how does it matter I got admitted to hospital when I when the second Delta wave happened and uh I was fighting it out I'm in hospital Rohit died uh in the first day that I was in the hospital he died and somewhere it hit me uh so bad I can imagine you know I was like oh my God they were making a kill list and Rohit is gone how many more will go stupid maybe that it shouldn't affect me but maybe it was the medicines you know I mean they they put you on steroids and all those things it affects", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-48", "text": "you on steroids and all those things it affects us right we may say that it doesn't affect us but it affects us yeah and increasingly I worry that uh although my children don't have access to these platforms but they have friends people talk people people say all sorts of things people want to uh comment on your life on your family on your journalism if you disagree with me disagree with me on subjects don't make it personal but that's why they're called trolls and uh I have a policy to I know that you give it back as good as you get it I try I try to not respond yeah I've seen I don't because I am I I don't think I want to give them even that satisfaction maybe that's a good way I will get to being that because I I don't want I I cannot stoop to their level and I don't see what their problem and and what amazes me is how somebody says something and a whole ecosystem swoops down yeah on you and some", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-49", "text": "ecosystem swoops down yeah on you and some of those people are people you've worked with some of those people are people you don't even know so my first reaction always is why you yeah like where you're doing this conversation in your head in my head and why you is in your head you don't write I never write it because I'm like okay if this is this is what you've chosen I've seen friends do this people I used to call friends it's very hurtful yeah because I all you can always pick up the phone and call and say why you did not agree with this or what you found wrong with it but your idea is not to question me your idea is to get followers by Stone pelting on social media at me so I will not give you that satisfaction fellow journalists do that fellow journalists do that you know there's this new trend of people reviewing your stories on YouTube oh yeah people do that in the UK I did something on hijab and then two people are sitting and", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-50", "text": "on hijab and then two people are sitting and playing my video and critiquing it and playing the second clip and critiquing it and then they're getting like I don't know how many lakh views so in my own way I started telling myself that that they want to get views and followers by association you should not give them that hmm they just they just want to engage with you and this is this is their way of staying relevant they haven't reported the hijab issue but they're reporting on the reporting yeah yeah so that that happens all the time you you do anything or what you will see it on on YouTube even in India it's there it's the so-called fact Checkers yeah they're not fact checking so many of them are sitting and actually just this is and a lot of these people uh you know say all sorts of use all sorts of terms and pejoratives for journalists are themselves people who once wanted to do things in newsrooms and did not deliver or did not", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-51", "text": "things in newsrooms and did not deliver or did not survive and so it's it's a case of sour grapes it's their problem they comment and I've seen senior women journalists also commenting on attire or women journalists and you know it it's hurtful it is and women get it more I'm sure you have also you know Guys these are what please listen to the content no they're not listening to content it's how you're tired even when I do this YouTube thing I'm sure there'll be a whole thing that um because a whole lot of thing is that yeah you know it's it's about presentation a lot of these rules apply only to women we are supposed to look a certain way we are supposed to uh um if we are too soft and smile too much then we are diffident if we are too aggressive then we are rude um it's it's there's never a good fit um and there are rules about I uh I think over the past few years one by one I've thrown", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-52", "text": "over the past few years one by one I've thrown all the rules out of the window I want to wear jhumkas with a jacket I will wear it you don't like it don't watch it but whose definition of presentable is it and what what is good you are senior enough now to take these decisions like I I said this to navika also like you know that now some of us are in this uh you know position of seniority where we can take this decision so we can make the changes in our newsrooms we can we can send out women in Conflict zones it costs more to send a woman out in Conflict Zone this is what I want to tell you know I appreciate channels which send out women uh into conflict zones to do reporting because it means double the culture absolutely right it means uh that separate room cameras otherwise they can share a room it means that you know you can't travel at night and if you're traveling at night you put a guard with that person if there's", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-53", "text": "night you put a guard with that person if there's a whole lot of things that go stuff that at my time I couldn't do in many places nowadays it's easier because we guys can take that decision did you at uh you know in your positions I are you did you take that decision that even if a woman anchor doesn't fit a particular standard which most channels that you will continue to fight her cause I have I have and uh there was a situation when um when I was told to take somebody off air because of weight and um and she was miserable and she'd gone through some some issues health-wise and she said I'm working on it and I knew she's working on it but this happens uh I remember when I was expecting my first child and I I you know told my boss about it I was told but you have to come back in shape quickly and the congratulations followed later and he was not a mean person but it just this is how they are programmed", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-54", "text": "person but it just this is how they are programmed hmm and I do not like it yeah you know so we go through so many things I mean uh also there are so many departments and newsrooms which still have male bosses they don't understand uh why is it that that when a child Falls sick you I have been in a situation where I remember uh my daughter was I think a year old and she had an acute ear infection and um she was crying and I left for work very early when my children were very young and I have always believed in them being independent and everyone in the family sort of divides the chores and handles it takes a village yeah but but on that day she was being very clingy and I said I have to go to work and everyone said okay she'll be fine but somewhere I I went there with that and it doesn't happen with me very often I I can be very dispassionate about some things and I'm like this is a project I have to", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-55", "text": "and I'm like this is a project I have to do this my work is as important as everything else but I reached office I got ready for the show um and the headlines ruled and after the first headline I started crying okay and um because I was not on air and the team was very good and the PCR guys they went into a break and I said I I know she's fine but I just don't like being here and then I nobody said anything even now I think you're joking when you're drinking it's very sad it's very and and you know for the next four weeks I worried that I may have appeared as less committed to my work because I did this because no man would ever sit in a studio and cry and say I have a sick child at home and then you over compensated I'm sure you try to do that it's very sad and and you have you seen that sabita ad where this woman goes for a job and you know and she says the interviewer", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-56", "text": "job and you know and she says the interviewer says okay is this your first time and she said yeah when I told them I'm pregnant they stopped giving me any projects so I'm saying that these things still exist I I was reading yesterday's newspaper the UN parity report we are still far away from gender parity salaries salaries all sorts of things so it is not a Level Playing Field whether it's assignments whether it's promotion whether it's uh giving you the space of people who do karobar are promoted faster I don't do it so then I will never be explained this now those who don't know yeah karubar is a bar in a car in the simplest of terms after your shift ends you stand outside in the parking lot uh put your glasses on the roof of your car drink chat gossip and then go home a it is unsafe because a lot of people are drinking and driving this is after The Newsroom yes bulletin yes and it happens it's it's part of The Newsroom", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-57", "text": "it happens it's it's part of The Newsroom culture I believe and it's a great place to bond I have never done it in two decades and there was a time when I felt that I'm not going to that smoking room and I'm not doing karubar I'm being left out everywhere but I couldn't get myself to do it so I'm saying that that that there are we have broken a lot of barriers but there are still boys clubs in even when you do beat journalism you've done foreign beats you know this right that um there are times where you hang around or the men hang around not women but the male reporters can hang around in bars for long hours with people get the news out smoking rooms as you said and women dividend I guess cannot do that at least in our culture it's hard in America or in the in UK in Europe it's okay you know but specially women who have children back home then you make that choice that you've got to go back so you also you", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-58", "text": "that you've got to go back so you also you can't do that for me honestly I know a lot of people struggle with that I have never had problems with long R's or weird shifts I have I have very good backup at home my problem is that men still get the wrong message a lot of times and if my choices between uh appearing a little snobbish and reserved and appearing too open and too friendly then I'd take the first one I don't want anyone to get the wrong message I I'm really not interested in anybody yeah I want to do my work and do it well you remember the metoo movement and all you think that men have learned after that that these are the boundaries you don't I don't think so no I don't think so and and me too is a you know we in the media tell everyone else how to conduct themselves this is what the society should be like this is how judges should be selected this is how Neta should be we hold truth to power", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-59", "text": "is how Neta should be we hold truth to power but we don't face our own truths newsrooms are full of predators and some of those who were let go of are back in positions of Power are being legitimized in more ways than one and what are we doing about it you walked out at one point of time I'm not going to mention names but uh I think many people know you walked out when you couldn't take that um a person who is labeled a predator um do they come with a certain learning when they come back after they have gone through the you know the shame of being called a predator I don't know I don't I don't think it matters I have you have you have wronged so many people and uh why should you get the benefit of the route now that is one and second I don't think they change fundamentally this person you're talking about someone told me that she was his subordinate in a newspaper and she went to him and said that you know", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-60", "text": "and she went to him and said that you know this is my script and he said your lines have to be tighter than your jeans you get away with it how do you get away with that and what you do to the to the confidence of that that girl and she left media as it as it happened but but what are we doing honestly and we let them be and we give them space because uh a lot of us don't want to to be branded as trouble you know you you raise a stink in one place and 10 other Newsroom leaders will say okay this one is bawalia but that's the word they use that's what happens you know everything is a problem yeah person because she won't take it she won't just brush it off yeah but um you know it happens often um there was a case when uh reporter said you know this was quite some time ago when she said that a certain politician you know rubbed his shoulder once in a wrong manner then rubbed the arm", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-61", "text": "once in a wrong manner then rubbed the arm in a wrong manner should we take it out you know so I asked her I said do you want what do you want to do to go through the um thing I call up the politician I take it up we can issue a letter and all that and she said no she said I just want to let you know um but uh I want you to know that this politician is like this so don't put young reporters on the job who don't know how to handle I will handle the man on my own and she handed the man on her on her own terms and also we sent out a message that listen watch out because what you did this time you're letting it go because the reporter doesn't want to go forward with it but be careful otherwise next time it becomes an issue now that happens because also she knows Kim hamisco reporter you know she got a sympathetic year not every time that happens it doesn't happen because I", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-62", "text": "time that happens it doesn't happen because I think um I think you would empathize with what what they go through also a lot of times it's non-verbal a lot of times you don't know how to uh I I remember uh about 15 years back I went to the studio after a big interview had just finished with a very prominent minister and the studio had different sets so I had to do the news from another set and the editor is asking the minister would you like tea or coffee he's not replying he's not replying because he's staring and it was a big Newsroom and he kept staring and I felt violated without him having said anything without him having done anything how do you quantify that and what do you say that he was looking at me yeah but you feel terrible yeah and these things happen and and I'm sure a lot of reporters on the field go through this yeah what are they going to what are the mechanisms we all have these vishaka guidelines Porsche Etc", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-63", "text": "we all have these vishaka guidelines Porsche Etc no we are we are far away from making it a safe uh place for women to be a place where they can Thrive just on the basis of Merit how what do we do now next what should what should Newsroom managers what should news media owners editors how do we go forward awareness right how do we go forward it that mentality changes or what do you put in place because it's not enough to put laws and rules you're saying no I think the younger uh the younger Workforce is much more aware and open when you interact with people who have uh who have become journalists in the last two to three years they are much more open to uh respecting boundaries they understand uh the women are much more vocal and they say I will not put up with this um I think uh this is a generational shift I think there is more awareness but as Leaders we have to facilitate it because because people in teams take cues from how", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-64", "text": "it because because people in teams take cues from how their leader behaves if if if somebody in my team calls me and says I'm feeling depressed and I can't explain why but I don't think I'll be able to come to work and write today one way of handling it is saying okay don't come but don't make it a habit or not giving that person the best assignments from there on correct the other way of saying is that how do you want me to help you it's okay I have been through this I know a lot of people who have good days and bad days everyone does in fact and it's okay take your time and let me know how I can help you what travels they will feel more comfortable you have to create that culture that culture building has to happen gradually but it has to happen consciously did you have any boss who did that with you that empathy yeah you did I did you're lucky then yeah yeah right I was I was really uh supported and allowed to", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-65", "text": "I was I was really uh supported and allowed to grow and also I think it also happens with uh with bosses who are not insecure because male bosses women bosses both both I've had I've had some good very good mentors okay let me get to uh finally let me get to when are you coming on air everybody wants to know this how can I do a show with you without knowing when are you coming on a back on it very soon okay in what role you can't tell this whole secretive thing we are in stealth mode as we say no we are building something we are building a team we are putting together a big team I know and it's a great space to be in because every day you read headlines about people being laid off and it's very unfortunate and at a time like this we're once again swimming against the tires you put it um and and there are more jobs uh we are looking for people who are talented let me make this pitch on your show who", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-66", "text": "talented let me make this pitch on your show who can uh who are passionate about news and who are not afraid to be thrown at the deep end in any role so um I'm working on it um I want to do the show when I'm ready when I know it's going to work I know that that as people who it takes it takes a lot of adjustment to you know there are days when and so much news has happened ever since I left you want to tell the story I'm like yeah I want to be there and I would have said it in this way but uh it has been a great learning experience for me in patience in in understanding when the time is right and when I a lot of people write to me and every time I put a photo on Instagram which is nice but I want to tell you and everyone else that you'll be back I will be back it'll be a better show hopefully and uh we will put it out when we are confident that it'll work but don't", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-67", "text": "when we are confident that it'll work but don't you get this whole lot of RTG kind of advice that out of sight out of mind my mother tells me all the time you know somewhere you build it I'll do something else but you don't get it from your mom that archbot tired oh all the time I don't like these clothes who got you this thing uh why are you wearing Chenille you know which make which fashion thousand everything was so velvet like that so you get it from your mom too all the time yeah yeah and do people ask you how you manage um you know since both you and your husband both of you are journalists you'll have different points of view and you work in I mean you worked in two different channels which had you know kind of contrary views editorial Lines no but we have a so my father-in-law was also a journalist correct yes and legendary and my mother-in-law is very aware and sometimes she ends up educating all of us and saying no", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-68", "text": "ends up educating all of us and saying no you are wrong okay so it's a good healthy sort of a mix and now my children also have an opinion on most things and they're like we don't want to discuss this or when I try to tell them something don't be preachy this is not gravitas time don't do this so so those things happen all the time but I think uh it's it's even most most of us enter a room they're saying do you get that do you feel that that after politicians probably in the pecking order we are disliked the most because they feel a pontificate maybe yeah but I usually don't uh don't no you don't I don't launch into uh this thing unless somebody is really prodding me and maybe Beyond a point I tell them that watch my show please don't ask me please I'm sure they'll ask you this they do that yeah and if you don't say then they'll say but they they do it all the time and somebody has even", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-69", "text": "they do it all the time and somebody has even asked me do you write your own thing who writes those things for you yeah I have a very good team yeah so I'm sure you get that a lot because there is a lot of talk that anchors bottom of the brain chain that that they actually just read what has been given to them it and sometimes it is true yeah it is true that to look pretty is enough in some channels and to present it enough to present it convincingly even if they are not your thoughts is enough and sometimes that's what is required yeah the anchor might have thoughts of her own but it's not asked of you yeah it's given to you and you have to speak it did it and did anybody try to do that to you I mean that was that one instance you did but what about when you were Junior um oh yes somebody even wrote a PTC for me I think go there go to widget talk and say this I may not remember it no no you", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-70", "text": "say this I may not remember it no no you have to say this and I will write the package then you only do the PTC why are you sending me no you do it so initially one sort of played along sometimes some of those stories were um I I've had all when I started in Hindustan times I remember I went to the editor before I got the position and I said I want to comment on Foreign Affairs and I was still in college and you know this Iraq war is happening and this is happening and bahut patiently he listened to me and then he said okay I have an assignment for you do a story on dandiya Knights in Jaipur like what did I just tell you I didn't say that obviously but he said no no do and make a funny piece okay write something nice and funny quirky I wrote something rejected it he rejected it ten times okay it's not funny enough and I kept rewriting it but that was the time when I think I was really", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-71", "text": "that was the time when I think I was really young and I I thought okay I will I will write something that he likes and then it made to the Anchor story but yeah you did also today this is what I tell young reporters that we are doing stories which we want today both stories the first story that a television story that I went out was a funeral it will but if if I did something with somebody uh the same thing with someone today I think after the fourth rejection I'd get a call from HR saying this harassment happening in your team so you can't do it now they don't work out I think you can't you can't reject a story ten times and say you know I don't like it what do you not like it I don't like it you can't do that they will come to if you I change lines all the time in whatever I did and then people would walk up to me and say what in it did you have an issue with and I had to have an", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-72", "text": "have an issue with and I had to have an answer you can't say that at least I don't I mean I don't like so I believe it's the same with teachers you can't since you have young kids you can't slash a page and say redo yes why why what was wrong was the headline wrong of not headline well titled wrong was the intro wrong was the conclusion wrong was it too long word limits figure it out yourself redo now you can't do that because you will hurt the sentiments of the child so just the same way I guess reporters have to be uh you know Molly cortled a little bit probably a little bit now yeah allowed you can't you have to be tender and gentle yeah I I at least that's my model I don't want to I also feel that a lot of people uh because I came from another city and I was alone and I was trying to uh make room for myself in uh very big world that is very cruel to people who come from smaller", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-73", "text": "is very cruel to people who come from smaller towns or from different towns and come into television media for me it was I think it was uh it was a very hard reset for me um I also came from a family where um when they gave they gave me the best that they could uh but my parents did not talk to each other in English or to us we are from Rajasthan and if they spoke very chaste Hindi I thought I'd done something wrong that that's how it was and very very basic very basic middle class upbringing and suddenly you're thrown into this mix of people who I learned from a lot but uh I did not have that exposure I did not have uh parents who were ifs officers who'd seen the world um I did not know their references my father just had one rule no TV no music that so that's that's I do not know what movies they were talking about and the new contacts no like uh foreign beat was all about Daddy's yeah friend and", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-74", "text": "foreign beat was all about Daddy's yeah friend and mummies so you you you're always lost and you were trying to find something for yourself the only thing that that really helped me was reading I have always been a reader and um and so I have I I knew theoretically most of the things they were talking about I'd not experienced them recently a woman journalist you know told me about uh when she was working in an English news channel and you know she she also did not come from privileged background or an elite background and she said that it's hard in uh in Delhi because uh if you if you didn't come from that setup because he says after after the bulletin was over or after everybody oh let's go to the oberoi coffee shop let's go to 360. let's go to Matan let's go you know so oh we'll go to Gymkhana they're all members their fathers were members their grandfathers were members we'll go for a swim here we'll go for to the gym here", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-75", "text": "swim here we'll go for to the gym here and they bonded like that and if you didn't belong to that Clique yeah upward trajectory didn't happen in your career yeah yeah so it is harder it was at least but that's not the case anymore isn't it it's become The Newsroom has become more egalitarian like that isn't it it has I think people are not uh people don't think that it's it's necessarily a bad thing that they're Outsiders I think uh I see a lot more confidence in younger people that they're not they just say that okay I am from such and such place I don't know this hmm and uh that's okay so I guess that's that's a good change yeah also the internet has opened up the world so much more now that people are generally more aware they're not as when I came I I learned a lot of things for the first time while I was here right this was 2005. although the internet was still there but yeah in the", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-76", "text": "although the internet was still there but yeah in the 90s I remember uh actually conducting uh uh we went out to a restaurant with 10 of my reporters and uh teaching them because they were going to go to do foreign beat stories so they would I didn't want them to it wasn't as if I was looking at them you know it's okay it would be an Indian we can eat with a hand but I didn't want them to feel small yeah you know I didn't want uh for Indian Foreign Service Officer to giggle with another reporter that is so we went out to a restaurant and I told him and then and then you know there was this one reporter who went on to join the BBC at one point of time who said foreign traveling abroad from my uh Seven Generations but then equip your reporter to do that you know but like today I've seen that reporters don't mind they have the confidence like you know we'll manage that we don't need to conduct this classes anymore to teach", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-77", "text": "need to conduct this classes anymore to teach these uh you know these nice cities or etiquette or something like that they are learning on the job with great deal of Panache yeah I would say much more confidence than probably we had when we started also I think there's a there's a shift of very um at least I can feel that in society that we are more as as a people we are more confident of our place in the world and we are not shy of saying that okay this is not what I do you know uh I always say G because to to somebody who's older or up because this is part of my culture I'm not American I cannot call my uncle by his first name and think it's okay even if I have a great bond with him that's not who I am so I've accepted who I am and I will say what I have to say Sir ma'am G I know it's the corporate culture my name is what about the workplace would you encourage young you know students", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-78", "text": "the workplace would you encourage young you know students to take up journalism get to television newsrooms print newsrooms yes I think I think bright people who have who want to really do something good interesting creative should take it up and I know the onus is on on leaders to also change the workplace and make it more you know incentivize it for for uh the younger lot to join but but this has to be a collaborative effort and uh I I see the pushback that they can mount when they don't agree to something me too is one example and there have been other stories where uh people who've been three months into The Newsroom have come and said we have to do this we have to do this because we feel so passionately about it so we need more of those people and I think uh I think we'll all be better off I look forward to seeing this new Avatar of uh Newsroom uh of a channel and of you as soon as possible we want you back on that thank you thank you", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "2aed5e27576d-79", "text": "we want you back on that thank you thank you thank you so much for coming on the podcast lovely talking to you I have not had an interview like this I don't know what I said okay but I said whatever came to my screen it was great Straight From the Heart thank you so much thank you thank you for watching or listening in to Ani podcast with Smitha prakash to like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have heard or seen this on namaste [Music] thank you [Music]", "source": "9a-rhMfLPlc"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-0", "text": "the Pakistani people have never seen victory in their lives and I'm telling you this is very important Imran Khan has them believing that he has he has this magic wand you know Imran Khan you see the problem in Pakistan is that their mindset has been poisoned against India because of the textbooks in government schools five-year-old kid who's in school he is taught he is taught that who's your enemy um that is Pakistan sitting on the water tanker drunk and telling the world's nuclear weapons and they've been doing it successfully in below you can't imagine the agony of the parents the brothers and the sisters when people have been taken away the world will be a safer place without Pakistan foreign welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today my guests are Mr tilak deveshar and major gaurav Arya two Pakistan experts Mr diveshar is the author of three widely acclaimed books on Pakistan and has also edited three books on Pakistan for the Vivekananda International Foundation", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-1", "text": "three books on Pakistan for the Vivekananda International Foundation his new book is on the pashtuns also on the podcast is gaurav Arya who's an Indian army veteran and is the founder of the chanakya Forum he's a public speaker who you would have seen on many TV debates and on social media thank you very much Mr diveshwar thank you gaurav for coming today and talking to us so uh this is going to be a very interesting conversation I'm sure regarding Pakistan I'll begin with you uh Mr deser you've written this book on Pakistan which I'm going to get to shortly but first I want to ask you about the events the current events which are happening in Pakistan is very interesting because uh in in the years that I have been following Pakistan I've never seen the kind of demonstrations that are going on right now you know posters against uh against the Pakistan Army them going and uh attacking or you know the core commanders house huge crowds going for a civilian it's all", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-2", "text": "house huge crowds going for a civilian it's all for Imran Khan these are these are supporters of Imran Khan and so for a civilian cause uh which is for restoration of him to become Prime Minister supposedly that's the cause attacking the Pakistan Army this is something which is absolutely new how do you see it you you're such an avid Pakistan Watcher how do you see these events first of all Smitha thank you so much for inviting me to your show Even though this has been a not been in existence for too long it's become extremely popular thank you so I feel honored and a privilege to come that you've invited me you see two things have happened in Pakistan to understand the background of what is happening Imran Khan was removed as prime minister through a democratic process of the vote of no confidence but his ego does not accept that he could be removed he feels insulted so since April when he was removed till now he has remained in the Limelight galvanized", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-3", "text": "now he has remained in the Limelight galvanized the bosses and using a false narrative instead of as a politician we will come back tomorrow he has not accepted that so he uses false Narrative of an American conspiracy and tapped into the deep anti-americanism in Pakistan one second before you explain this more uh there are some uh viewers some uh some listeners who may not understand this concept of the American narrative or the the false narrative if you could just slightly explain this what happened so um he claims that a official of the U.S state Department threatened the Pakistan ambassador in Washington that in case Imran Khan is not removed relations with the U.S will deteriorate and cases removed you know certain beneficial things would happen and this Imran Khan said was sent to the Ambassador centers of the telegram or a cipher document to forward then he pulled it out and waved it in a meeting in a public meeting in March this is the American conspiracy the Americans wanted me out because I said", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-4", "text": "American conspiracy the Americans wanted me out because I said no to their bases I went to Russia and in a host of other things is a deep rooted anti-americanism in Pakistan and he's managed to tap into that to that he's added anti-army anti-establishment again it's a it's a very popular thing too so this has been his so this is one thing that has happened in Pakistan so how is this uh thing uh of you know that there is you are saying this uh deep rooted anti-americanisms these are the pillars like you know India has you have we have the pillars of democracy uh where we have the executive the Judiciary and uh uh you know the media also the fourth pillar but uh in Pakistan it was these three pillars so up anti-americanism because Pakistani leaders have always milked anti-americanism to get more money from America okay if you recall in the case of Musharraf he created this scare that if I don't protect you there will be a takeover of the islamists", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-5", "text": "you there will be a takeover of the islamists so the but for the domestic audience they will keep criticizing the Americans though they were willing to do anything the Americans want so that's why there is anti-americanism and not from now are we saying anti-americanism has been there for a long time so Imran Khan was installed by the Army where did things sour between him and the Army is it in October last year when General bajwa wanted to post Fez amid was DJI Isis core Commander because in case he was to be in contention for the Army chief he had to command a Corps so he wanted to push him out in October Imran Khan for reasons that are not very clear or people hint at it and these are non-professional reasons didn't want to let go of asameet and he wanted he said no we'll he should continue for some more time and things like that so then bajwa said look he just has to go and this was the understanding and the issue of", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-6", "text": "go and this was the understanding and the issue of the orders brand Khan didn't sign on the orders so it kept pulling pulling pulling November then sometimes I think in towards end of November because 29th November 22 bajwa retired so if fairs have to be in contention he had to do a core at least for one year before that so finally Imran Khan relented now you see in Pakistan the Army has favorite politicians but they will never allow a politician to have favorite generals and that's when the institutional interest of the army came in and they said nothing of the sort we are not going to allow that the politician to choose which Journal goes where and you know you can't interfere in the chain of command in the postings that's how relation started deteriorating with them why is it so important to have your man as the isi chief foreign for a prime minister Imran Khan it was critical why because as um put it very uh in a very Punjabi way either the Army was", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-7", "text": "in a very Punjabi way either the Army was even changing his nappies he didn't know how to change his nappies so the day-to-day management of parliament of putting together his majority putting together his Coalition all was managed by the isi all the the bills that are to be passed the election of the Senate chairman everything was done by the Army therefore he wanted somebody by the army or by the isi see uh let's clarify this here isi reports the Prime Minister technically the DJ isi selected by the Prime Minister but because he is is serving officer okay there is no way he can go against the wishes of the army Chief only once I think when Benazir Bhutto she appointed this uh elephant as the djisa all along the DJI Isis have been with the consent of the army Chief so tell me uh in the pack on top and then uh isi Chiefs you see in popular uh films and all these things that just a picture no it's the Army Chief and", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-8", "text": "that just a picture no it's the Army Chief and the co-commanders okay you know the nine co-commanders are that is the college get leadership Commander is the most important is reports to him plus also he uh the units facing India fcna and things that's all commanded by the pinky so this is one element of the equation okay that is Imran Khan the second equation is retires on 29th November foreign government so he is putting pressure on this government too postpone the appointment of the army Chief till after the elections he hopes to win the election and appoint the Army Chief and he's told bajwa I'll give you an extension till such time as the elections are held that is one part of it the other part of it is that he does not want this government to appoint the senior most research General that is Asim munir as the Army Chief because there is no love lost between nebran Khan and Asi munir was djisi and within eight months Imran Khan got rid of", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-9", "text": "and within eight months Imran Khan got rid of him for reasons against that were not professional so he got rid of asimuni within eight months of being dgisi and appointed Fez within a state so there is a panga there is a conduct between ASE munir and Imran Khan and Imran Khan feels that if Asim munir is appointed to the Army Chief by Shabbat sharif's government then the next three years when he's going to be Army Chief Imran Khan will be in the wilderness okay so that is the hurry for him to ensure that elections are announced the new Army Chief is appointed only by the new government and not by this government okay I'm going to come to you uh gaurav you are you're quite a legend in Pakistan you know all the memes that are made on you where your face has been taken and jinnah's cap has been made and then and you're called the father of the nation in Pakistan you've been hanged metaphorically several times in Pakistan for all your", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-10", "text": "metaphorically several times in Pakistan for all your views on it so I'm going to get to the social media part of it but before that I want to ask you what I asked Mr divesha the same question is how do you view what is happening in Pakistan these days does it surprise you at all uh and you know like there are people like sushant Serene and all who says which is going and you know demonstrating or attacking the house of in Peshawar of the core Commander so what do you how do you see all this happening uh thank you for inviting me Smitha when it when it happened you know for the first time I could not believe that such a thing is happening in Pakistan because uh like you said the Three A's that is what we have that is the steady diet that we've been brought upon that you know Allah America and the Army but uh I think what is happening is a uh this is a fight for sovereignty also uh overall", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-11", "text": "this is a fight for sovereignty also uh overall sovereignty of who who controls Pakistan and who controls the future of Pakistan that is on the face of it like Mr devasha very very correctly said you know it's also a race to appoint the new Army chief because while every Democrat in Pakistan might speak about democracy but all of them have been appointed uh by the army or the creation of the army creation of Rawalpindi was the creation of Ayub and then they're killed by the Army also because because they start thinking they are God and this is the problem Ayub Khan created was hanged by xiaolak the problem is that they go against the institution an Institutional loyalty has been very very important for the Pakistani army it's only now that this is what one of my Pakistani friends who's a journalist said that there are there are two kinds of generals in Pakistan you know uh you know uh so he says that the the religious kinds you know who pray five times a day and", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-12", "text": "kinds you know who pray five times a day and then there are these whiskey swelling generals of the Pakistan Army and uh he said this is one of the divides of the Pakistani army now what he has done is I think Imran Khan through this long match he has stabbed into uh like Mr devasha said of course anti-americanism because that has been there for a very long time in spite of the fact that Pakistan relies so much on America no it's pretty much afloat because of the Americans for all practical purposes but also the fact that you know this this uh the Pakistani people have never seen victory in their lives and I'm telling you this is very uh important so when somebody comes uh you know where the the diplomacy is uh down right their economy was never up all right uh their army has lost all the words and uh every time you know uh the head of state is seen with the begging Bowl somewhere in the world and all this gets back to", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-13", "text": "somewhere in the world and all this gets back to the pakistanis they have extremely low self-esteem yes do you think that absolutely that they have lost Wars yes you know the the narrative is that they have won the wars no but uh protest you can only do it against us why don't you fight against India this is what common pakistanis are telling the Army and they know that Pakistani studies is all fraud they know it's fake so coming back to what I was saying Smitha what has happened in Pakistan is suddenly here comes a guy who says that you know foreign absolutely not then I I will say I will say to you what Imran Khan said to the television anchor absolutely not Imran Khan is neither Sadiq nor ameen Imran Khan is slightly less corrupt then the sharifs you know that whole line it's the same thing yeah that used to be the the slogan for Sharif and now here it is so uh this I think this pretty much sums", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-14", "text": "is so uh this I think this pretty much sums up Imran Khan this is what this is what he's trying it's it's a positive it's interesting if I can interrupt yes he was taken to shakut Khan Hospital when the people from the other hospitals this is after the attack after the attack when the people but listen that attack was no I'm just saying a different thing on Saturday okay so they want to do a blood test and x-ray reports for a medical or legal case to file a complaint they refused to hand over the blood test because it would have traces of drugs now this is not a conspiracy theory it's true it's not it's true they refused because but this is a fact it did not allow the new doctors set of doctors I think from General Hospital or something to come and take his blood report or the x-rays because traces of drugs in his blood okay so sorry sorry so yeah so tell me what did you feel when you saw these uh uh you know the", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-15", "text": "feel when you saw these uh uh you know the the uh Peshawar said your pictures uh that entire night when one saw and it's gone worldwide you know the PTI supporters across the globe have in many cities of the world uh they've held these protests where they are saying and suddenly you're seeing people coming on the streets protesting against the park Army talking for democracy in Pakistan it seems a little bizarre you know that this is happening did you also feel that when you saw that did you also get that sense that if this is odd absolutely I I was shocked when I heard uh because because all the coups in Pakistan have pretty much been bloodless I mean the people don't get on the streets and people don't protest against the Pakistan Army that's just not done uh when I saw those images outside the core Commander's house I was a little surprised I said this is taking it too far no then they try to climb the the walls into the", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-16", "text": "then they try to climb the the walls into the governor's mansion and stuff like that in Punjab and every all other places also they started this yes yes uh I was pretty surprised but uh this is what Imran Khan has people believing especially overseas pakistanis also a lot of pakistanis inside Pakistan crores of them but Imran Khan has them believing that he has he has this magic wand you know hmm nobody has asked Imran what your economic policies are going to be nobody's asked him what your diplomatic policies are going to be let's say you do become Prime Minister in the next six months what are you going to do no there is this desperation that's what I'm saying a people who have always lost it's not just about wars lost this game of life in every indicator whether it's passport whether it's public health they're at the bottom they're being compared with Afghanistan and Sudan and here is somebody who comes up and says this is what I'm", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-17", "text": "who comes up and says this is what I'm going to give you I'm going to give you Riya Madina where everybody will have Justice there'll be fair play there'll be equality and you know it'll be a true democracy this man who says he's going to give pakistanis true democracy then turns around foreign this is the dichotomy that pakistanis have no clue how to deal with because they think it's just another day of office I mean uh just to you know be the devil's advocate here do you think that Imran Khan kind of realized that without the Army at that stage there was no way he could have come into civilian uh Power it was it possible because he came from no big political family nothing else he didn't have money power he didn't have anybody on his side so he needed uh not everybody even people with money power big family ties huge zamindars everybody they don't they don't make it without the Army's health or Army's blessings yeah Imran Khan was brought as", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-18", "text": "blessings yeah Imran Khan was brought as a counterweight to the sharifs and the interesting part is you know this is the stick that Imran Khan uses today to beat the army with so the Army created a narrative the isi created a narrative that the sharifs are corrupt the sardaris are corrupt here is a man who's not corrupt you know and they kept on saying that the zardaris are corrupt and the sharif's are corrupt no this is exactly what Imran Khan is telling the Army today today correct that music and you put the corrupt people there you put the chores under the gas there all the while you have been saying that he's corrupted now he's there you've put him there and you've removed me correct correct so this is how he's turned it from yeah and also if I can just add she's a narrative he's built for the last six months all the fact that his government was a failure has been drowned has been totally diverted the", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-19", "text": "has been drowned has been totally diverted the attention of the people if you recall you know he came and he said and then people started saying you know it was so bad but all that had been swept under the carpet and as gaurav rightly mentioned what is this program not one speech in the last six months as he said I will do this Jesus says I was removed by a conspiracy you bring me back to Power and Madina I get that uh that you know he's not talking about policies and he's not talking about what he can do and all but remember that when there is talk of a revolution policy matters don't really come on the phone if you see in India India Rahul Gandhi is out on this policy to to bring about some kind of motivation in the people policy matters emotional connect uh but you know let me come uh let me move a little bit away from uh imrano uh Imran Khan does a feature in your book I'm showing the book right now", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-20", "text": "in your book I'm showing the book right now uh it's called the pashtoons by tilak diveshar uh a contested history the first thing that came to me was like contest history baby contest but then when I got around to reading it and it's very interesting thing it's a voluminous book it talks about so much about you know uh what a bloody past it has been for them and how difficult uh it has been their past present and it doesn't look like the future is going to be any different either a very interesting reading uh but quite rightly you start off by saying that you know what are our early memories of uh pashtoons of pathans you know we all thought of it as kabuliwala and then later you got to know that yeah okay uh dilip Kumar his real name was Yusuf and he was a pathan but then you also talked about how the uh Ayu Khan was a pathan the Prime Minister the president and our president uh was also uh uh a", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-21", "text": "and our president uh was also uh uh a pathan and then you talked about Madhubala which I didn't know that she also had pathan lineage yes I didn't know that and Mansoor Ali Khan so then uh becomes so then explain to me that you know how is it that that the pathans have this cultural Affinity regardless of their political boundaries that you know divide our countries whether it's Afghanistan Pakistan India what is it that binds pathans across these three countries we have civilization links centuries then you had the maurya Gupta maurya in Ashoka who whose Empire encompassed what is today uh the Pashto land law Afghanistan you have so many Buddhist monuments and inscriptions or from ashoka's time and in fact before the Islam came to Afghanistan there was a Hindu shy Kingdom in Kabul and the Buddhist Kingdom in and thereafter then the pashtoons started migrating towards India the Delhi sultanate were the kiljis you're the lodis you are the", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-22", "text": "were the kiljis you're the lodis you are the suris and then you are the rohillas you had principalities in Bhopal you have to inspired in tonk furukabad so there has been cross fertilization between India the Indian subcontinent and the pashtoons first going back centuries in fact you'll be surprised by the largest repository of pashtoon documents are actually in India not only in museum but in different houses every different people no enough research has not been done but there was those who have the largest uh you know most uh manuscripts books written in Pashto are in India so there is a very strong civilizational correction now you may have the talibar in power today and the government of India obviously for obvious reasons is not a very hunky-dory with the Taliban but people to people so whether it's sending fifty thousand tons of wheat or sending covered vaccines or any kind of other humanitarian assistance we feel a sense of responsibility because there is a strong civilization uh connection", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-23", "text": "responsibility because there is a strong civilization uh connection you know uh gaurav I'm going to uh quote from Mr dareshar's book which one quote which I found very interesting had flagged it I flagged several quotations in fact one I found very interesting where uh Pakistan's prime minister he was asked in the Constitution he asked in the constituent assembly in 1948 when Khan Abdul kafar Khan was present and he said is pathan the name of a country or that of a community and gaffar Khan replies is the name of a community and we will name the country and his son Wali Khan was asked if he was a Muslim or a Pakistani or a pashtoon first he replied that he he was a six thousand year old pashtoon a thousand-year-old Muslim and a 27 year old Pakistani you know I found this it is fascinating yeah it's also gut-wrenching identity you know all of us who live in the subcontinent in fact I I don't recall exactly who", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-24", "text": "subcontinent in fact I I don't recall exactly who it was who had once said that you know like a person who had a Bangladeshi passport you know like she says that at one point of time I had a Pakistani passport and before that I had an Indian passport this is a person who has lived through 1947 has lived through 1971 and now is a Bangladeshi I had interviewed her you know regarding a film which was made on India Bangladesh relations identities identity is so important and explain to me what it means to be a Pakistani and still not be in in uh in peace with one's identity you know like you mentioned about the pashtoons that pashtoons for uh six thousand years the Baloch have been saying the same thing you know they said that we are the inheritors of the marangarh civilization so they say balush for 10 000 years Muslims for 1200 years and Baloch and Pakistani for 75. so this is what the balotes say now Pakistan has always had a", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-25", "text": "what the balotes say now Pakistan has always had a very serious identity crisis because they chose to Define themselves in a certain Manner and that is the root cause of the problem in Pakistan Pakistan has always defined itself as we who are not India so all the linkages and this comes from Maulana also of the jamaat Islam it comes from that school of thought that you know uh there's a very interesting thing in in in uh in a book that I read long back uh that you know be as far away from a Hindu house that you cannot see the cooking smoke coming out of the chimney so that that was what was said so you remove yourself now how do you remove because because most of them have got Hindu ancestry and therein lies the confusion so you concoct forefathers who came with Muhammad bin qasim yes they geographically removed themselves absolutely but 711 A.D Mohammed bin qasim comes to sindhan fights against Raja dahir and my great great grandfathers", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-26", "text": "against Raja dahir and my great great grandfathers came with the army of Muhammad bin kasip and my great great grandfathers came from Central Asia or turkey or Iran etc etc now the thing is that you see and this is what is tearing Pakistan at the seams also amongst amongst a lot of other factors bajwa is a Sikh in Hindu name um he was here yes Nawaz Sharif is from here no not that no uh not that what I'm saying Smitha is something else I'm saying that these people still carry Hindu and Sikh names okay so so yeah Raja Ashraf you know uh uh uh uh there the Jack uh yeah some of them are Jarred some of them are gujar some of them are rajput so like for example okay right and you know that the cities the chatas the Chimas the rathors the chohans yeah all of them are in Pakistan and they have not many of them have not changed their second the last names the surnames because you take pride", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-27", "text": "the last names the surnames because you take pride in the fact that you're judse but you're also Muslim yeah right pashtoons don't have that problem you know because pashtune for six thousand years they don't have that problem do the pashtuns in Pakistan not have a problem with it with their identity yeah no they don't have a problem with their identity because it's a civilizational thing you see for them their identity as Wali Khan said I'm a six years old they have got culture they have got pushed the way of the pashtoon there are more pathans used in your book I read I which I didn't know that there are more specials pathans whatever you want to call them in Pakistan then there are in Afghanistan I think isn't it and Karachi is the largest city in the world yeah more than uh jalalabad or Kabul so then but they don't identify themselves as sindhis even though they are in Sindh yeah they identify themselves as pashtuns just like the mahajras", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-28", "text": "themselves as pashtuns just like the mahajras identify themselves as mahajas even though they are in sin they came from India in 47 but they treated themselves as a nationality but they came in 47. the pashtoons have been coming and going they don't they don't admit to the Durand Line they don't they don't respect it they don't believe in it they've been coming and going they don't see that divide because of their strong cultural ethnic linguistic commonality you see all of them speak Pashto we call it in the north which Imran Khan doesn't speak even though he's a pathan he claims but actually he's Punjabi from has ancestral um settle all this time but doesn't speak Dari or Pashto it seems he does not and the news he speaks Punjabi but but the the niyazis from Miami have been very kind to India yeah yeah very nice and this one is doing extensive damage in fact you know what Smitha recently had asked for people Indians", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-29", "text": "what Smitha recently had asked for people Indians abroad to start funding the Pakistan and a lot of them have given money to Pakistan because he's on the Long March no and he's going to shake up the system so a lot of people are giving money now 10 to 10 pounds 20 pounds 50 pounds people have started funding namanzur.com is the website I can't do it from India otherwise I would have given half my salary you just stay true to your mission don't don't back down now you're now creating the ground for another foreign funding case against Imran Khan there is certain prohibited funding oh my God take funding from countries yes but Imran Khan is doing wonders I think I I said this long back one one and a half months back I said that uh in fact I I think I can claim to have said it first where I said that the Indian army or the Indian armed forces would not have been able to do so much of damage that Imran Khan alone Imran Khan", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-30", "text": "of damage that Imran Khan alone Imran Khan foreign he goes to Bruce Wayne and the butler says that uh Alfred I think his name is an Alfred says master Bruce he tells the story that when he was in service he was in the SAS The Specialist service of the British Army and he says I was in Burma and there was this warlord who was throwing away rubies the size of a tangerine he was throwing it away and you know he would fight for the rubies he would steal the rubies but then he would throw it away so he said if he's not selling them or trading in roomies that's what Bruce Wayne asks him he said what's the point because he says master Bruce there are some people who want to watch the world burn yeah that is the nature of the man if I cannot have Pakistan you may as well drop a bomb that is what he said is that is what he said he wants to watch the world burn if he cannot have it then he does", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-31", "text": "world burn if he cannot have it then he does not care whoever yeah exactly in your book you mentioned this that you know they are they are trying their level best to get over this image that is there with the pashtuns that what gaurav just mentioned there's this thing that as a community they want to fight and they are Fighters but you know there again is this is the conception uh narrative built by the British colonialists accounts of how they look at the British or how they thought of themselves the only one account I came across was by gaffar Khan's and I've quoted an extensive figure what is the question actually what is the Pashto think a person is like and it makes beautiful reading you know it really puts a lump in your throat that what does the Pashto think the Pashto in his life and it's not that they are Fighters but because honor is the most important principle of prashun valley that is defending your honor on the triangle of zarzan zameen", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-32", "text": "your honor on the triangle of zarzan zameen you know women wealth and land they all carry weapons and because of that they have been given this impression and because they opposed British military um you know uh invasion of their land so the British gave them a thing of develop their Fighters all the time it's not that but I think if uh I think yeah I'm hunting for the court introduction we are content with as one elderly told uh elfinston we are content with Discord we are content with alarms we are content with blood we will never be content with the master because again says that we are all rain Zone wheat we all came up on the same day so all pashtoons are equal because they come from a common ancestor so I also writes that if farmer the dirty hands will put out his hand to shake hands with an emperor he has no blemishes no consciousness of that because he feels he's an equal so achievement you know the the status in society is achieved you're not born", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-33", "text": "the status in society is achieved you're not born because you are somebody's son or somebody singing what about the tribal loyalties and their tribes so they're all they have to achieve it they have to be by fighting by owning more land by reading Expeditions or whatever so they are the biggest Democrats you know gaurav is mentioning about the baloches how are they different from the Baloch in that respect you see the Baloch have a Sardar who's head of the tribe and role of respect there is no inherited no sort of heredity a car that's all achieved your status is achieved either through War owning more land more Hospitality you know there's no Khan without a duster Khan the bigger you can spread your tablecloth and feed your village the more respect you command in society and people will then in a jirga is where everybody sits down together you sit in a circle there is no one who's the head man everybody is equal is there anything equivalent in", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-34", "text": "man everybody is equal is there anything equivalent in India gaurav do you see any tribe any oh yes in the Northeast yes in the Northeast in the Northeast you have a gown Buddha a gampura is the head of the village and I've seen very senior uh ministers and very senior is officers but when they go back to their Village they have absolutely no heirs they'll walk around Barefoot and the Gown Buddha calls the shots so yeah uh this and and it's a very very uh evolved Society in the Northeast Northeast of India egalitarian absolutely absolutely I like the pashtoons you know the very reality yeah okay so uh we were talking about the Balochistan uh thing you know how is it that suddenly there is now this pin drop silence as far as the Baloch agitation is concerned it's you know the media's focus is only on the PTI uh March and there's nothing the the Marisa silent the book these are silent yeah it's like the", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-35", "text": "silent the book these are silent yeah it's like the agnivir movement which happened and then suddenly they said that you know this government is collapsing and all the media moved over to the and suddenly there was no aggravated next day the agitation died down it's the media okay you want to point it out yes all of a sudden Supreme Court Pakistani Supreme Court so so that is that is you know that is uh pretty much how uh Balochistan the balochara minority in Balochistan numerical minority there are more pashtoons in Balochistan plus Balochistan is spread over Iran it is spread over Pakistan thirdly the reason why you know I I often think and I could be wrong but I often think that if Balochistan shared a border with India you see uh if you want to if you want to support a secessionist movement you must have a border with that like for example Kashmir like for example Punjab it becomes difficult for any government to say that you know at the end", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-36", "text": "any government to say that you know at the end of the day they are like and they're like Australia as far as we are concerned they're an island because we we cannot reach it we can only reach them either by land that way or see directly otherwise there is no other way to get to Balochistan and this is where they have suffered also abject poverty abject poverty yeah you're talking about uh you know uh media Focus uh shifted from the Baloch cause but the thing is that Pakistani media has never really focused on anything any protest anything other than what happens in Punjab you know other they have not focused on the PTM March which is that it's been going on for so long regardless of whichever government comes to power in Islamabad they the March is going on there are disappearances which happen Pakistani media doesn't talk about that the Balochistan thing nothing absolute silence what is happening in their so-called Azad Kashmir the protests which are happening silence even", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-37", "text": "the protests which are happening silence even on that and here you have in India you know everybody says a Pakistani media is so free and forthcoming by they are only focused on Punjab that nobody talks about actually Indians have no idea many Indians most Indians don't have any idea about Pakistan the Dynamics of Pakistan how it functions and this is the damage that Imran Khan has caused have you ever seen punjabis of Pakistan protesting on the street very rarely so you'll have somebody protesting in Balochistan you'll have people protesting this is the first time where the masses of Punjab have come down and started protesting against the Army an army that is 70 Punjabi for all practical purposes so I think yes and as far as you talked about the Pashto tahafu's movement uh see uh foreign all these are left-leaning people they're essentially Communists and they want Justice within the framework of the Pakistani Constitution and manzoor pashina has never said that I want", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-38", "text": "manzoor pashina has never said that I want an independent country never said Ki Afghanistan he's never made those sort of statements now how does Pakistan react how does Pakistan react um this is their mindset and these are elected members of National Assembly foreign friends so many times I am confused against all their societal reputation how are the pashtoons so quiet and so nice they remind you of you know of Frontier Gandhi you mentioned him some time back yeah and these pashtoons the day the pashtoons start getting because they're two sides of the same coin and I'm not saying that they are similar they are not they're poles apart their worlds apart but the fact of the matter is that even the Taliban right they are they abandi Muslims right uh the Afghan Taliban and the tarike Taliban Pakistan the TTP now and they also believe in Afghan nationalism right and they said attack the company which is why they don't recognize the different line they said it's nonsense and", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-39", "text": "recognize the different line they said it's nonsense and all we don't recognize the different line fact of the matter is that there will be a time and I very strongly believe and Mr divasha is here in he'll shed more light he knows far more on this topic than I do but the fact of the matter is that I think this is Pakistan's uh biggest fault line which is just ticking under the surface absolutely absolutely Smitha it is so dangerous it is so dangerous that what they have seen in Balochistan is nothing once the pashtoons get you know highly armed highly motivated enough members in the armed forces enough members in the bureaucracy right they control Karachi for all practical purposes after after the MQM uh you know is is on the ventilator of the Ico I mean it's there but it's not there and and uh the leadership is gone the leadership is gone and altaf is outside but but you've been outside for over 30 years or more 30 years yeah and", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-40", "text": "for over 30 years or more 30 years yeah and now you can't even make those telephone calls which alsas don't get the crowds now this thing but the fact of the matter is that the fruit business the transport business the logistics business in Karachi is controlled by the pashtuns and where did that attack happen that Baloch woman when she attacked you know the Confucius Institute those people it it was done by Baloch was done in Karachi because and it came out in the Pakistani media none Baloch have a tie up with the with the Taliban the Baloch Freedom Fighters now have tied up with with various factions of Taliban or TTP for that matter it is the same thing I don't I don't I don't see any difference between the GTP and the Afghan Taliban I think they're the one and the same when we talk about patience and you know these disappearances you know yeah both Common Cheese and disappear okay it's a kind of an accepted thing it disappear okay somewhere", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-41", "text": "kind of an accepted thing it disappear okay somewhere blood money has been paid or something has happened or the understanding he will stop anchoring you know or he will stop coming on television but we disappear it's a common thing how long or the theons are not exactly known for their patience and if this is the kind of atrocities that are happening on them how long do you think that that patience will last will that also explode into a kind of a militant movement against the existing uh you know setup in Pakistan you see first about the Baloch you see people disappear and reappear they reappear as dead bodies in below you can't imagine the agony of the parents the brothers and the sisters when people have been taken away and nobody is there to cover it yeah you've written a book on balochistana in which you mention all this for example did a program and he was shot almost fatally he you know so the media blackout is there because the Army this is the Army's red", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-42", "text": "is there because the Army this is the Army's red lines you can say nothing about the Baloch or what we are doing in Balochistan it's only through social media now that things have started coming out similar with the PTM the pursue the first movement mainstream media doesn't cover them but thanks to social media they're able to put out visuals put out videos the diaspora then circulates it so people have come to know what is happening over there but the points that you made yes you see the key element of pashtoon Valley is Revenge and there is no time limit that's also a word which I I read in your book I didn't know it is badal it's not bad it's bad you call it but they call it they call it the famous saying took Revenge after 100 years and said he took it too soon so it is pushed their pushed you know generation generally after generation this it festers that I have to take the Revenge the killing of my father here they have butchered", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-43", "text": "the killing of my father here they have butchered pashtoons like anything the PTM in you know when they pushed out when they did operations in waziristan two billion people have made idps to get Russians from in urban areas of Pakistan they were treated as terrorists racial profiling was done sub is all festering but there are thousands of them rotting in jails right now but when you said your pateka so today already what is happening is that the GTP which is an armed movement to demerger of Atta and that this feels our land this is we will have Independence over here now if they were to tie up with the Baloch no no with the PTM question which is a non-violent thing Pashto nationalist party and a nationalist violent movement can you imagine what state will be in of and here you have Pakistan who keep talking about several separatist movements in India but what you are telling me is that fata separate yeah there are people in fatah who want", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-44", "text": "separate yeah there are people in fatah who want to separate the baloches want to separate or their so-called separated and they see the they see the prosperity in Indian Kashmir right now you know at the risk of being labeled as a bhakta right now I might just turn around and say prosperity in Indian Kashmir they're seeing that and they're seeing the gurbat in Pakistani Kashmir and there is but no nobody is talking about that in the Pakistani media nobody's nobody's referring to these separatist movements in Pakistan and also just to finish my point see Pakistan tried to drive a wedge between the TTP and the Afghan Taliban after they took over in Kabul they told the Afghan Taliban can you send them over to us and we'll take care of them said nothing doing because what Pakistan forgot was that when the U.S bombed the Taliban in 2001 they all sought shelter either in quetta or in waziristan and the", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-45", "text": "either in quetta or in waziristan and the tribesmen gave them shelter protection looked after them and it is these Travis men Terror who are part of the TTP so as per pushed there is no way so they told Pakistan it's your problem you sorted out at best we will facilitate negotiations and ask the TTP to talk to you but you sought out along with your ulmas what their problem is and of those negotiations have broken down so if they have gone Taliban the TTP the pristunfels movement and even the mainstream parties like the Army National party which are pursued mainstream political parties they all got together recently in something called the pashtoon Kami uh and it's a very listen it's just a green shoot there at the moment but who knows in the next five to ten years what happens okay uh gaurav you know you've been uh you've been watching Pakistan for so long you've been in the armed forces in India and uh you have come", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-46", "text": "the armed forces in India and uh you have come on television channels and you you're completely against this mombati brigade that you've refer to very often that you know India should open talks with Pakistan and things now we've also had an Indian Prime Minister who said that a strong and stable Pakistan uh is in India's interest you have said to the contrary that you know Pakistan you tell me now that if if what we are hearing now that you know the bhaktouns also there are separatist movements in Pakistan what is there any good for India if Pakistan breaks up or is it good for India if Pakistan stabilizes itself in democracy get some hold in Pakistan Smith I think it's a function of intent and capability uh today Pakistan has the intent to cause India harm but does not have the capability because of its own Shenanigans its own lack of money it being in the feta for more than four four and a half years close to five years uh I think all these factors are there the day", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-47", "text": "uh I think all these factors are there the day the day uh Pakistan has capability there will be again a 2611 or an akshardham Temple attack they will do it again that's number one number two I'd like to say that you know former Chief of Army staff of Pakistan you know he said that if you have capability intent can change overnight uh you see basically what is happening I I you know a lot of lot of people have said Army generals have said and a lot of diplomats have made this point that a stable Pakistan is in India's uh in India's favor you know it will help India if there is a stable how I have it if somebody can explain to me logically I think this is this is like a lot of lot of people in Delhi they miss uh you know Lahore right and I'll tell you why this is a lie uh I I may sound slightly radical when I say it but I'll say it anyway and uh you know they have attacked us they have", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-48", "text": "and uh you know they have attacked us they have killed Indians they've waged War the existence of Pakistan is detrimental to India's national security repeat that the existence of Pakistan is detrimental to India's national security that's a very radical Rhine I'll tell you why they attacked us in 47-48 they attacked us in 65 they attacked us in 71 operation changes Khan right operation Gibraltar in 1965. they attacked us in kargil why are they not attacking us now because they cannot they will attack us again and I'll just tell you one thing here a lot of people say oh you're sounding radical or you know you don't you don't you don't want a love there is no love between India and Pakistani but then a peaceful coexistence Indians have sold themselves and I think I am I I feel very very strongly because so many of my friends you know their names are in the National Ward Memorial yeah I I don't have I have no forgiveness in my heart for Pakistan", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-49", "text": "have I have no forgiveness in my heart for Pakistan yeah right it can be an emotional reaction from my side but the fact of the matter is this is going to happen again and again till the time you solve the problem you know what we're doing wrong in Kashmir I'll tell you we what we're doing wrong in Kashmir Smitha is simply that you know a problem that exists in raval Pindi we are trying to solve it in Sri nagar right it's it's like a tap just say it is that you know even when there is a cricket match one commentator will say that today you're going to have this Grand cricket match between two nuclear parts that is the mindset the pakistanis have I'm not saying all of them are bad I'm not saying that but the world will be a safer place without Pakistan okay ah I'll just say one thing you see the problem in Pakistan is that their mindset has been poisoned against India because of the textbooks in government schools they hate", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-50", "text": "because of the textbooks in government schools they hate it 18 minutes sorry to interrupt you has been poisoned they have poisoned themselves so it's it's the inherent bile within them it's the inherent venom in them but you know a five-year-old kid who's in school he is taught he is taught that who's your enemy which have been done in Pakistan itself and I quote that in my first book that is the kind of hatred that has been generated if Pakistan was to change the textbooks today the first student will come out after 15 18 20 years but they've been brainwashed over Generations look so you know you can't expect any kind of especially in Punjabi schools in Punjab schools a Punjabi musalman is the real hatred against India and against Hindu comes from them and they are the dominant community in Pakistan so when you know you've you've been uh you've been in the government you've now uh you're an author you also are in the National Security Advisory Board now in", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-51", "text": "are in the National Security Advisory Board now in you've seen you met with pakistanis you've you've been part of conversations where they you know which is a different line than what gaurav is saying where he says that existence of Pakistan is detrimental to India's continuity but you've heard the other side too what is their point of view do they really are they is there a constituency in Pakistan which thinks that nehem coexistence it's only Tactical because you're in a back foot because you're in a weak Wicket yes and a Punjabi will always compromise I'm sorry to sound uh you know but they're very practical one minute when you say Punjabi will only compromise what you you what you're saying is that the conversation happens only among the punjabis the others don't matter in Pakistan don't have a problem they're not so much concerned about Kashmir the problem the Wellspring for hatred against India comes from Punjab and today because they're in a week Wicket they see the", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-52", "text": "because they're in a week Wicket they see the development that is taking place in India the Indian economy is doing so uh so well and India is doing well it's diplomatically is doing so well they say you know now let's moderate our uh you know whatever we want to do let's improve ourselves get to a position of strength and then okay I will see other capability intent will change so yeah it's a tactical thing or if I think that's exactly what you were talking about what I'm trying to also say is apart from what Mr dewasher said about the radicalization of the Punjabi textbooks uh three years back I was in anantanag before this covert thing happened and I usually carry these toffees and chocolates in my pocket and you know you wave to kids and you go away and all that so I like to interact with people there and kids and all that so I do that I quoted this once before and I said um somebody said foreign this girl said this five", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-53", "text": "said um somebody said foreign this girl said this five six years old who poisoned her mind and and I asked the colonel there the Russia rifles officer who was there with me he said sir I can fight against Pakistan I can fight against lushkar but in front of this girl I have lost my weapons are useless in front of this is blow yourself up and kill 40 people we are fighting against a mindset and I'm telling you dramatic though it may sound this is not hateful I'm just being truthful that this is an existential fight yeah this is tactical like Mr devasha said exactly yeah they'll again uh if that is at a faster Pace or as an equal Pace will that be able to combat this you know this this radicalization which happens we can do it at that place right Kerala is the most literate state in India right now it's not just about education it's about Mahal it's about environment also you know you were talking about social media a short while", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-54", "text": "know you were talking about social media a short while ago that uh the media was controlled and that's why people in Pakistan didn't know much about it but social media now you know I'm going to come into the aspect of information Warfare uh the the isi moves like like a you know a platoon when it comes to information Warfare India on the other hand seems like it is fighting on the back foot all the time do you feel that too do you see the the problem in India I think is that we still have not recognized media as an element of National Power we are still very apprehensive about the media it's a double-edged weapon is Pakistan is a weaponized media you look at the ispr and the info operations of the isi they have recruited thousands of young people so they can start a Twitter storm a hashtag campaign at the top of a hat you know in that cricket match yeah he dropped a catch and look at the kind of so they're looking for opportunities because they know that media", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-55", "text": "they're looking for opportunities because they know that media is an element of National Power we have to develop that mindset and look at strategic communication as a whole of government approach you know I hand out and you expect the media will pick it up and not develop it into it doesn't work that with today's age you have to get a narrative in first and get it ineffectively you have to get your narrative in first and for that you need very sharp people recognizing that the element of National Power you know uh gaurav for the one person who may not know who's watching this show on YouTube or whatever that you know you're actually a major also a major in the Army uh and you serve the forces this ashdeep thing is something which is so recent it it bothered me so much it shouldn't have but it it really gave me sleepless nights you know for you know for our viewers or listeners uh in sitting in countries where Cricket is not a religion just to recap a little", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-56", "text": "is not a religion just to recap a little bit and there was this dropped catch by an Indian cricketer ashtip and and within minutes after he dropped it the entire Pakistani crowd on Twitter started off that we have won the match because of this guy who's uh you know obviously he's a Sikh and seek means khalistani and Sikh has betrayed India and stood by Pakistan now by the time you know Indians or India tried to say that yay these are not indians who are saying this these are these Twitter handles are by pakistanis which was some Anonymous Handle by about 3 A.M India time who brought out the IP addresses and said that these are not indians who are saying it by they are not indians screaming at ashdeep on Twitter these are Pakistani handles you know by then it had picked up a life of its own and then even Indian newspapers and ethnic newspapers abroad and then foreign newspapers had all picked that up the websites had all picked up", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-57", "text": "all picked that up the websites had all picked up because and by the time India woke up and India reacted I'm I mean official handles it had it was seven years damage had been done by then yes you know so our information Warfare as I said it doesn't move with the speed that ispr does and I'm not even convinced that those were ispr handles you never know they could be just some radicalized Pakistani handles who are sitting and doing this shaking it I often tell the pakistanis that the only strike Corps that Pakistan has ispr Pakistan again I'm going to interrupt you because there might be people who don't even know the full form of ispr and what the ispr does so so in 1949 Pakistan created a tri-services agency called the inter-services public relations and while it's called inter Services the head is more or less always a army man that's what I've seen in the past 20 25 years I don't know if I've missed out somebody but generally it's a Kaki worthy wearing", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-58", "text": "somebody but generally it's a Kaki worthy wearing guy and they are the people who do information Warfare and public relations for the Pakistan Army they are the people who ordered the shooting of a Hamid Meer say that is these are the people who probably the media who tell pemra right the the electronic regulatory Authority in Pakistan all these things so the flow of information is managed by ispr and they try to manage the national flow of information not just sarkari but also civilian which includes Electronic media web Twitter Facebook etc etc what Pakistan does is Pakistan has realized that this is not a 4g's game and this is something that we in India have not realized and we must yes you need songwriters you need editors you need poets right uh you you need you need script writers you need hackers you need people who are like human bots in their thousands this is what you need this is not something that you see today in today's when we talk about Network Centric Warfare and where 5G has come in", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-59", "text": "Network Centric Warfare and where 5G has come in and all that today one or two teenagers with laptops right can cause far more damage than an infantry Brigade they can cause far more damage we need to realize it's it's cyber it's information Warfare and I think what and India can do it 10 times better than Pakistan because in the end it's a function of vision and money it's a function of vision and money who understands that this is important get a building in place that's what I've told people get a building in place fill it up with people right tell them and this building takes 24 into seven this building never sleeps foreign and Trust You me when I say this I know what to do if somebody were to give me money na I can cause the kind of damage that Imran Khan is causing inside Pakistan can you imagine the mindset France these are good people but we need to tap into this it's a country created in the name of religion so they think that that religion's", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-60", "text": "name of religion so they think that that religion's protection is their job regardless of where the attack happens god-given country no other Islamic country says this Pakistan is hmm they don't a god-given country yeah but they know how to ex exploit the fissures in our country we don't know or we don't have the intent probably we don't have the intent and we ever see that that is a country that was you know a National Security State Security State bana what's my foreign and a general you know it's it's like a general passing orders that I want this done and it is done democracy is always messy it's messy exactly this is exactly what I said that democracy is you know we are stuck in systems right systems then you need several layers of you know approvals and grants and those kind of things it is not a one person who decides everything you know like when we were talking about narratives uh like you said that in your book you talk about the pashtuns who", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-61", "text": "in your book you talk about the pashtuns who didn't write their narrative The Narrative was written by the Brits for them but the same thing happens like when balacode happened they got the narrative first because by the time our narrative came and of course we have our politicians who say video proof though yeah foreign but in our country it doesn't happen like that what do you think about it no it is you see because the unfortunate polarization even when matters of National Security and foreign policy are concerned has become deep-seated that people think that by scoring cheap points they are somehow damaging the government they don't realize they're actually damaging the country whatever is your political fight that's separate you must you know Parliament here other places are there but when it comes to issues of National Security the national interest must be must predominate that I think has got somewhere it's it's not happening to the extent that it should in Kashmir do you think that in in their so-called", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-62", "text": "Kashmir do you think that in in their so-called Azad Kashmir uh the narrative is because about the media you know off camera we were talking about how even the media there uh is uh is not is not free see button there are very few people who speak kashmiri because the land that was taken over mostly it was not Kashmir so what essentially happens there is that all these people you know from mirpur and all that some people about speak kashmiri shows no they they speak pahadi they speak dogri they speak Punjabi 98 of the people in Pok identify themselves as ethnic punjabis it's basically they've turned the whole place Punjabi and today a lot of people there is dissonance there in the sense that there is there is frustration there because there is no they don't have an airport there in in Pok one uh there is nothing if you want to catch a flight you have to come out of Pok and then go into Islamabad whichever is the closest and", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-63", "text": "then go into Islamabad whichever is the closest and then catch a flight so they're in a very bad State they don't have good hospitals I mean finally these things do matter growth matters they have no media also that's also controlled by um that is owned by the Pakistani army controlled by the core of signals so even their phones are tapped that means they don't pakistanis don't trust they might say Kashmir Road Pakistan but do they trust the kashmiris know they don't trust the kashmiris they do not trust because one day jkla woke up one fine morning I said Pakistan this is not good here they started killing of people and which is why when al-faran came and went none of them had Kashmir in their names these are all pan Islamic names that is what Pakistan seeks to control they have the same model even in Balochistan nationalism is the same script you know it it did not succeed in Bangladesh or east Pakistan will it succeed here because there also it was an identity but", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-64", "text": "succeed here because there also it was an identity but there it was it was a very Fierce identity crisis is there similar kind of identity crisis with regard to the pashtuns with regard to the baloches uh is it strong enough for Pakistan to Splinter to break up you see they have used ban islamism especially did during the time of the Soviet Jihad all a lot of people came in from the Middle East from Saudi Arabia and wahhabi kind of influence but people forget that the pashtoons Afghanistan has been a very strong Center of moderate Sufi Islam you know herat for example is called the soil of the Sufi Saints ghazni was called aboard of the Sufi Saints the most famous Sufi Shrine in Lahore is actually who came from Ghazi so gradually the Sufi thing will have to reassert itself today it is not because it has been overcome by Barbies and in all kinds of things but once the Sufi culture reasserts itself which", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-65", "text": "but once the Sufi culture reasserts itself which is what even you would be surprised used to visit the grave of his teacher every week and would also visit other Graves though we say he's a cutter and this kind of a thing but very strong Sufi influence so I think the Sufi influence has to come back and we'll come back will bring it no not not Imran concertly not no with black magic and all that that he's he's believed to do no no no other uh so that is not going to happen but you know before you end I want to make two points the polarization which Imran Khan has brought about in Pakistan today is absolutely frightening and unbelievable there was political polarization you know pppm of social polarization in fact Dawn quoted as a seven-year-old girl who came back from school and told the father that people who are supporters of PTI children and those are supporters of Nawaz pmln sit separately now we don't even sit together", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-66", "text": "sit separately now we don't even sit together in a classroom in the classroom one second you know this political situation is what do you see at the moment there are 30 million people who don't have shelter because of the floods there's a Luby's Water Crisis in Pakistan they have an education emergency in what I wrote about in my first book economy is on a slippery slope population is growing at 2.4 percent three million people are entering the labor force every year year after year for the next 40 years there are no jobs these are the kind of issues that are eating away Pakistan and nobody is paying attention to these fundamental issues of the country they're all bothered about it where is Pakistan headed that they are on a precipice they could fall either way either Embrace democracy see that the success that it's had in countries around them and embrace that or else go into a state of chaos like Afghanistan has done what do you see uh gaurav what do you see", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-67", "text": "do you see uh gaurav what do you see happening as we conclude it's the last question Pakistan is not a normal country Pakistan will continue to exist in some form or the other truncated balkanized or otherwise or otherwise but Pakistan will never be normal they'll keep on limping be this country will keep on being on ventilator from one year to the next to the next sometimes the Americans will give money now he went and he got some money from the Chinese and then he got some money from the Saudis and now he started this whole tamash about climate Justice and he's saying and what is this whole thing with the Saudis there is a difference just just my last statement and then I think that is Pakistan sitting on the water tanker drunk and telling the world's nuclear weapons and they've been doing it successfully they've been blackmailing the world and the world has been giving the money but then what I mean after seeing the rush I don't want to go into the Russia Ukraine crisis but", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-68", "text": "want to go into the Russia Ukraine crisis but after seeing that you can actually call the bluff on the nuclear uh thing isn't it on the button no with Pakistan with regard to Pakistan all the time using this nuclear Button as a big thing that um and then there'll be destruction in the entire region or the subcontinent or or Beyond you know that is you know we can do this yeah I think that the Pakistan Army leadership which controls the actual button is responsible enough not to do going for this kind of nuclear brinkmanship I think so at the moment at least but the danger with the nuclear issue is that they don't believe in India's nuclear Doctrine we build it very clear that even if you have a tnw tactical nuclear weapon we will have massive retaliation you can't do it if we have a one kiloton nuclear weapon you will not bomb Lahore with the 30th you can't do it I think but four years exactly the frightening thing is that in their", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-69", "text": "years exactly the frightening thing is that in their Doctrine when you meet people this is that is the dangerous thing not so much as you know they're threatening they want you know I teach I don't think so at the moment they're not is that irrational at the moment all right thank you so much for this conversation uh Mr diveshar thank you Gora for coming in and giving us uh two points of view which are almost similar I feel that after this conversation but of course uh your articulation is different and interesting and all the best to you in your endeavors uh gaurav you are now uh you know moved into the think tank space and you're doing very well in that thank you very much so all the best to you too and I look forward to uh having you back with your fifth book soon thank you thank you so much for having me thank you so you really enjoyed this conversation and wish you all the best in your new Venture thank you thank you so much thank you all right", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "e8ec24b64a1d-70", "text": "thank you thank you so much thank you all right thank you for watching or listening into Ani podcast with Smitha prakash do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you listen to this or watch this namaste foreign [Music]", "source": "1QSf8KsdTiY"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-0", "text": "let me tell you there's going to be no confusion about which side of the faction I'm on I am with other balance I thought crazy I will repeat this like 100 times over even if there are three people five people ten people we are going to be fighting this out I used to be writing columns way before I joined the Congress yeah I was a communication person many people tend to think that everything I did was after joining them always learn even from your opponents and what Mr Modi has done he's transformed what communication is visual communication is and that is something you you must give him full marks for patrolling for women is way higher statistics prove it uh worldwide it is a phenomenon where women are mostly trolled there's a history for everyone yeah either you Embrace that history many times people tell me that oh you are that turn code history it was not supposed to be that way but there was no reason for you to in hindsight do a suspension how does it feel you know they were having fun", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-1", "text": "how does it feel you know they were having fun at my expense welcome to another edition of eni podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is Priyanka chaturvedi she's a woman Member of Parliament nominated to the rajya Sabha from the shivsena party Priyanka chaturvedi was first in the congress party and due to one incident which uh which he spoken about in the podcast she left the party she was considered close to the powers that be but it she didn't hesitate once she decided to leave the party she went back to Mumbai and there she decided to join the shiv Cena a regional party now in the shiv Cena she's again close to the powers that be in Parliament her role has been pretty strong she picks up issues sometimes which are not even connected to uh to Mumbai or Maharashtra the party from where she belongs but she's very vociferous in her defense or in her view about gender equality on gender issues she speaks a lot she is also so she also has", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-2", "text": "speaks a lot she is also so she also has a very strong view about hindutva about the BJP she's very strident in her in her criticism of whether it is Mr Modi or whether it is Mr amitsha but whatever she speaks on she speaks straight from her heart you'll see that even in her conversation now she gets trolled a lot but she takes on her trolls with a lot of Gusto and she doesn't give them any space when she takes them on so here's my conversation with Priyanka chaturvedi joining me in the podcast is my colleague payal Mehta Priyanka ji thank you very much for coming to Ani podcast with Smitha prakash and before I begin about all your politics and about everything to do with shiv Cena I'm going to start by asking you how do you cope with all that Supreme love that you get on social media no firstly I was surprised with that g that you added to my name you don't need to do that so yeah so all the", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-3", "text": "don't need to do that so yeah so all the love that I get from social media I think it is just something you get used to you remember how we started you know how Twitter was a place I used to have a lot of fun but we've seen that transition happen to a point where you can't share any part of your personal life it's all about your work and yet you get trolled but I think I've learned to live with it now there's there's no other way but continue to do what you're doing and while I read all the comments but I have to ignore them but um dealing with it I think it was another transition for me I used to be very uh it used to be very surprising for me very sensitive about any criticism coming my way so for that also to change it took a little time there were times when I used to just think of deleting my Twitter handle then I've I used to wonder why should I be doing that I shouldn't these guys be learning how", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-4", "text": "doing that I shouldn't these guys be learning how to talk to women but I think it's become so um I think such a way of life for some people to seek attention so I've started to ignore it but it wasn't like that initially for you right it's only after you move to politics yeah that uh it got really vicious uh with the uh with the trolling that came your way yes it was I I remember a phase where if I know you also one of the first movers to that platform we were amongst those who were there was a little village that one had and everybody chatted and uh I remember that you could have different political opinions and it didn't matter and it was almost like a Town Square you come you have fun you talk about your favorite food favorite music movies Etc and uh we saw a lot of barriers also coming down so political people who are at that point of time and I joined uh uh Twitter I wasn't really active in politics politics also happened", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-5", "text": "really active in politics politics also happened after I joined Twitter after the entire Terror attacks and I was already on social media uh when the 2611 Terror attacks happened in Mumbai so I've seen the transition happen where it used to be a fun place to this so I think it's part of how you mold yourself I guess but is it disturbing because you know sometimes these comments are really really personal you know they call you or they call you Manus and I don't know what all they're called they've called me they've called me all kinds of names you know you you create a problem but I guess like I told somebody once again say essay tweets I'm happy for them if it makes their lives happier or they seem to be in a better space after trolling me good for you but you know okay that's a good way of dealing with with trolls right where you have to uh you have to understand how to deal with them but it does affect the mental health after", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-6", "text": "with them but it does affect the mental health after all one is a human being you can't if you're constantly abused and your children are dragged your family is dragged I think that that hurts that that hit me quite a bit and many times it has hit me especially when it comes to my my children I think it's a very motherly Instinct as soon as it comes to your children you react in a certain way so I I decided very early on social media profiles that anyone who crosses the line you can continue to talk about me Etc but you can if you drag my children into this you drag my family who's not in political uh space of work you drag them then I won't spare you and I've gone to the cop so many times I think before I became a member of parliament they were very familiar with me who comes and she talks about complaints about it there was a point in time when they used to tell me why are you getting Disturbed it took me", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-7", "text": "tell me why are you getting Disturbed it took me a lot of time to explain to them as well uh in Mumbai that Joe online so um with my kids I don't just tolerate I don't tolerate even now I'm very thin-skinned about my children but with me I you all I I sometimes feel either you can continue battling this out or fighting this out or learn to live with it accommodate this kind of trolling Behavior because I'm very certain that these very people would not come to my face and do things like this or say the kind of things they do oh no they don't they don't I mean I'm sure go ahead and have coffee some people telling me that you're not a good host because your guests don't drink their coffee and you keep drinking but you and that's that's true so um I I'm going to come back to you know the mental health of women who are on social media and coping with that I'm going to come back to it but it would be unfair", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-8", "text": "to come back to it but it would be unfair if I if I continue to talk on this and not speak about your political Avatar uh and you know for our viewers or our listeners who are abroad uh you're one of those who uh one of those women politicians who does not come from a political family you don't have a Godfather you didn't have you didn't have a brother Mother sister brother anybody in politics who propelled you or you thought you know you've worked in the constituency of your family so hence you got into it so tell me um why did you get into politics and why the congress party so uh when the 26 11 Terror attacks happened politics was not part of my scenario or something that I thought I would do and like every average Indian citizen at that point in time they felt of Father where you are from Politics the better it is those who are handling it handle it I came from a family which believed in that okay we just we go once in", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-9", "text": "believed in that okay we just we go once in five years and obviously so I came from a family like that 26 11 kind of changed my focus in life where uh I had just had a baby and I remember my husband who was traveling from uh Bangalore he was returning to Mumbai and I heard of the blast near the airport and I was quite shaken to the call I was a normal Moon biker working in a space Etc I thought we had to contribute to the society so that was one change the second was why the Congress at that point in time when I was I started my pavement schools and in terms of uh voting I come from a family which was very liberal in mindset which was we my parents moved from mathura to Mumbai and uh they felt that Mumbai has done so much and it's so inclusive and we got career opportunities there so they somehow connected it to the Congress and that we are all living in this space right from the Freedom Movement to now so", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-10", "text": "this space right from the Freedom Movement to now so that was how my upbringing was in terms of my in-laws they were totally on the other side of the spectrum so that's another interesting story so Congress became a very natural choice for me and at that point in time when they were opening up the system SRI Rahul Gandhi had started this entire process of bringing in people from different spheres of work and they had approached me they said that you know you're doing some great work why don't you look at youth congress as a platform and that is how it I initiated my entire political career but I was very uh I would say I you know how you are apprehensive and you're also questioning their credibility that would they be able to look at as someone who's coming from a totally non-political background and make space for her you were also I remember the first meeting that you had with Rahul Gandhi uh I you know you tweeted on that and I I was I was like", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-11", "text": "tweeted on that and I I was I was like she's such a fan girl because you literally had it was like a fan girl moment for you when you met him for the first time and I know that there were many who were you know oh your name is Priyanka his sister's name is Priyanka and then you tweeted a picture uh you know of I don't think selfies were there at that time there was a picture picture that you tweeted over and you literally had you know glazed eyes you were like yeah because you know um I'm sure even if I meet Omar Abdullah I'll have that glazed eyes even now because those of you know those are people who've grown up watching on television and making new stories talking about politics and I came from a totally non-political background never would have thought that I'll be in this space of work where I will be engaging with them and I'll be talking to them I think social media in that manner did a fantastic job and also", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-12", "text": "in that manner did a fantastic job and also there was this conversations that you know lots of us used to have without realizing these are it's a public platform everybody is so personal views there was actually you know payal there was a a list which was put out and everybody did this like in college there was something called a chick chart where good looking girls names were put on that it was horrendous now when you look back of it you say oh my God what a sexist thing it is but on Twitter there was something called Nayan souk oh my god with the Clooney weather and the Clooney weather and we women would automatically say politicians pleasing to the eye in which Rahul Gandhi used to be there so everybody used to put in out there without thinking that yeah this can come back to haunt us at some point of time and those kind of conversations I think you didn't realize probably that you're going to get into publicly this is like you know I used to talk about", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-13", "text": "this is like you know I used to talk about someone's dressing sense some public Personality yeah you should talk about their sarees it used to be so casual it will just still do that you still watch what people wear oh of course I always do that but she's careful but then I I WhatsApp it to a particular set of yeah but I don't tweet it because you get into trouble but uh the point is that there was a time when I used to comment on people's clothes and I say how unfashionable or like what is the combination even it was just so normal is and I remember Samantha used to tweet this is oh this is so Clooney weather yeah till somebody told me midlife crisis that she still got this crush on a person who's in his 50s and so is she so it was like horrendous imagine you know we used to discuss and many people people who are from the old Twitter gang they will remember this I have since College days I had this huge", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-14", "text": "this I have since College days I had this huge crush on Arjun rampal and every time we used to discuss Arjun rampal everybody would tag me Priyanka you know Arjun is being discussed yeah it used to be such a fun place but we've seen the transition happening when did when you joined the Congress did people in the congress party or did the media cell tell you turn this down like change your avatar not at all no that that is I think one thing that I'd appreciate is that they were like be who you are do what you want and uh I don't believe that no no it was it was it just came very consciously to me that you know now that I I am I have been nominated as a media panelist of a party and uh so this it definitely comes with certain responsibilities and I kind of uh toned down myself because um everything I was putting out there was being linked to Congress in some way so if I say oh I love red they would", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-15", "text": "so if I say oh I love red they would say oh how can you love red when congress party loves green or whatever know so I was like everything would come back to the congress party so I thought it made no sense for me to even if for example if I was to share an English song or a Hindi song and like oh who are you linking this song to who is this song for do you think that it happens a lot for women spokespersons of political parties more than the male spokesperson like would was Mr surge attacked in the same manner like you were because he was hitting your team right no no but but um I'm certainly not I'm very sure it did not work like that and uh I don't think um men take it too hot as much as women do uh but uh definitely trolling for women is way higher statistics prove it uh uh worldwide it's it is a phenomenon where women are mostly trolled see you were with uh Rahul Gandhi when", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-16", "text": "see you were with uh Rahul Gandhi when uh when he was he was a president he was of the party and you were in the media cell you were very uh you know working closely active and uh what is the difference that and then you know you had you had your issues with the media team at that time there was divya's pandana who was heading the team and and then you know it was quite obvious to all of us from the outside that there seems to be some something not working right you know and 2019 elections um they lost and the entire media team went their separate ways everything collapsed so tell us something about it it's over right yeah it is it is uh uh so yes I was pretty active on social media I was pretty and I think I did a good job for them I mean I would say so considering that uh um I still get calls from a lot of people from the Congress from you know far off places rural constances or maybe because I've worked in", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-17", "text": "places rural constances or maybe because I've worked in madhya Pradesh I've worked in Karnataka so I do get calls from them but yes there were certain challenges where uh I felt that uh you know you can always Overlook them because it's part of the process no organization can please everybody so but yeah uh you're quite right it was pretty awkward at times uh in terms of working alongside people who I would say were a bit toxic so tell me you left um Congress also because of something which happened which was very toxic uh it was like it it just seemed that it was boiling and boiling and that was the watershed moment that definitely was the watershed moment for me because um Smith if you you've known me and you've seen my entire trajectory I I've not been someone I'm comfortable in my space I'm not insecure about people I know what I do I bring the best to the table and my best abilities and best efforts and I don't think anybody would raise a finger", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-18", "text": "and I don't think anybody would raise a finger to that particular point of thing up the issue but I did feel that uh certain things are not just going right uh not that I was seeking a ticket which is told about many times many people make that as an excuse then they say oh priyankan is settle Kia with another party before she chose to jump opportunistic there is nothing of that sort I was pretty happy in my space but there were moments where I felt that things could have been handled better but this particular thing like you said was the Tipping Point for me uh Tipping Point because I have stood very strongly about uh women's rights and women's issues and when you as a political party are talking about women and how women have to be heard Etc then you have to prioritize that you cannot uh you know think I have two thoughts about it for Outsiders or insiders right what you speak outside should be applicable within the party what happened was in uh in in", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-19", "text": "the party what happened was in uh in in a particular month uh some people were suspended but they were brought back during the election time and uh that I thought was the alpark thing that if you take a stance now for me and if I am important important or if I'm relevant forget important relevant relevant who you will listen to me did you speak with uh Priyanka Gandhi or Sonia Gandhi look I'm the reason I asked their names is because uh if such an incident had happened where a woman politician would have got roughed up and uh things in say a samajwadi party or in a party where women are not in positions of power then I can well understand that you know hierarchy wise you don't get your view but this is a party where ladki who learned there's a Priyanka Gandhi and there's a Sonia Gandhi who's been at the helm for like almost 30 years now so did you get a hearing from either of them actually to be very honest um", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-20", "text": "from either of them actually to be very honest um uh I had shared this with the general secretary in charge of uttar Pradesh which was my immediate boss which was randeep surjawala I had shared it with both of them and immediately you know a committee was formed and they realized what Priyanka was saying was right and suspensions happen the main person who was to be suspended was not suspended for whatever reasons because he was someone I knew since my childhood days but even he ended up being part of the problem but it was decided mutually that let's not do that we have taken action against the team my only request at that time was that when when the time comes please ensure that they're not taken back six years ago suspension Tonka foreign but it came at a time the the taking them back in at a time when uh everybody was so caught up and then everybody tried to tell me that listen listen we will address this election post election which I was not ready for you", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-21", "text": "election post election which I was not ready for you know there comes at point in time where you decide that uh what do you stand up for and for me that was it but isn't that shocking you know you have a woman who's at the helmetology has been saying but waiting you know waiting and telling a woman that you know this is a serious issue isn't it no okay why would you have to reach out to them why couldn't they have reached out to you no the mother because we talk about so much of women empowerment no because maybe maybe because they were not aware of uh this because I had resolved you're not a you're not a party worker you were you were a serious person you know somebody who was part of the media team you were somebody who was there in the public right right and you put you put that out in the public but I'm a very stickler for protocol you know that if if that can be addressed by XYZ why should I trouble ABC so that has", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-22", "text": "by XYZ why should I trouble ABC so that has been my case uh even now I mean I would say that if if something can be resolved at this level why do I take it to that uh but and I try not to make anything ugly because uh it just doesn't work out when you look back in time and uh but I thought that because it was just so close to the their men that they would have gone even could have said yeah Priyanka is right and for Jyoti also to say you know let's hang on I have an election going and that they have asked for something I mean I say everything's in the past and we've kind of thought it's uh it's not that's what happens you know business anyway let me get back to the media uh Team you were there in their media team right what do you have to say do you see any change in the media team now that jayaram Ramesh has come you're seeing Rahul Gandhi then uh and Rahul Gandhi kilometers", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-23", "text": "Gandhi then uh and Rahul Gandhi kilometers yeah do you see any difference in in the way the media is being you know his projection in the media is it more successful do you think now I think it would be unfair for me to say anything at this point because just taken over but the rebranding is uh quite transformational I feel in the past just two months reactionary time is like this everything I would say maybe there is also an understanding of how narrative works and I can tell you one thing for sure that that was quite a struggle for me to explain the power of imagery the power of visuals like you know you always learn even from your opponents and what Mr Modi has done he's transformed what communication is visual communication is and that is something you you must give him full marks for because he's quite Hands-On himself a communication is concerned and if you've got your communication and your narrative in sync then it becomes an Unstoppable Force you know how would you have", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-24", "text": "an Unstoppable Force you know how would you have a visual communication of a president who was not in the country when you were in the media team uh yeah I mean yeah that was uh something which um what would you show no I'm certainly uh you know whenever he used to take some time out but whenever he was in the country there were enough and more for example for example I'd want to give you the prakash or the the Fiasco of Germany his German Germany visit where uh some photos were put up on Twitter looking up down left right round any communication expert would tell you that even if you've taken photos like this I'm sure Mr modiji has his own moments but Mr motiji is very careful about what he's putting out there but yeah eventually if your your communication person has gone and put that out uh who's someone who's relying on and you depend on I would I would blame the communication person because you are trying to uh let down the person who had faith in you to show", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-25", "text": "down the person who had faith in you to show the Right image or to set the right narrative and that was a very uh interesting Outreach that he had he was getting a lot of traction abroad and he could he was able to put his point of view across and without being censored without being stopped and he could speak his mind and that was the momentum that was coming out of it and those four images that were tweeted out from the congress party handled were just so unfortunate so those were those are my pain points right because as someone who has and let me also on your show put it on record which you are aware of you are also aware of but um I used to be writing columns way before I joined the Congress yeah I was a communication person many people tend to think that everything I did was after joining them I was already doing that for someone who has been in the communication who's Hands-On with social media would understand all of this so you um then you from a center left or", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-26", "text": "so you um then you from a center left or a left party that Congress has become the options were there for you right uh why join this extreme right party then shift Cena actually not many are where because see when you're sitting in Delhi your narrative is only via the Parliament and what you're hearing but on ground locally there's a lot of changes that are happening and because I used to keep my family had refused to move with me to Delhi because my husband used to keep telling me that your role is so uncertain you don't know where you're heading in life why should we move back baggage to Delhi and because of what you are choosing to do so I used to live a very tough life seven five days of the week I was in Delhi uh only the weekends I was getting to spend with my children and in those weekends we were trying to get all the family together do our family numbers try and do our holidays holidays also became a luxury it", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-27", "text": "our holidays holidays also became a luxury it became very difficult so um but I used to keep going to Mumbai and uh Maharashtra and I used to keep figuring out uh what is happening on ground and I was seeing a transition happen because Aditya just stepped in and he had his own ideas whether it was with plastic ban whether it was transforming the entire educational system of The BMC The BMC run schools I was seeing a real push towards uh issue based uh political party it was moving away from what it was because they felt it was not the need of the Aden the need of the hour was to look at skill building Etc but the politics is of Street Politics the politics see there is there is a momentum that you build through your on-ground uh movements and there is what you once you are in that position of power what are you doing with it are you transforming lives are you transforming systems are you transforming uh the ability of people to Aspire for more", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-28", "text": "uh the ability of people to Aspire for more so that was what I was seeing with that so he he is very clear with the environment that climate change is the challenge he was speaking about it a lot earlier then it became a fashionable thing to speak about I was seeing that happen and I also felt that uh with me moving and I I did not want to I was definitely very let down by Delhi at that point in time I said National Party whatever it could be a national party the congress party but I want to move back to Maharashtra family was the biggest pull for me uh politics was not in my Horizon I thought yeah and then Congress will come back to yeah something like that you know that but then when I resigned and everything happened within 48 hours and I was so angry so angry um that is when other tiji told me you know things seemed to be going so well for you what are you doing what are you even doing it used to be such", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-29", "text": "what are you even doing it used to be such a happy feeling to see you standing next to Sri Rahul Gandhi and talking and you know addressing the media and I told him and he asked me what's your plan I said nothing I mean I'm coming back to Mumbai baggage so he said if that is where you're looking at working why would you want to give up your politics I said because I don't see myself going with any other party now he said why don't you look at us and and that is when it struck me that it made just the perfect sense for I get to work in Maharashtra I get to work in the city I love the way my family belongs and I'd be able to work for a party which has been you know very Cosmopolitan in terms of working in the city of Mumbai where Cosmopolitan I get that part where you're talking about environment and all that Aditya is doing and all that's fine but it is it is an essentially", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-30", "text": "that's fine but it is it is an essentially hindutva party much more than even the BJP yes and you all through were attacking you know attacking in the sense ideologically attacking that hindutva aspect of the BJP you were never attacking anything other than the hindutra aspect of the of Mr Modi of Mr amitsha of of uh fadnaves of uh BJP leanings or whatever but the point is that it's the hindutva aspect and here is a party born and bred I mean Mr baltaker is politics is all about that it's about hindutva more radical than even the BJP yeah so how do you cons reconcile with that no again I will again repeat to you uh in terms of their their ideology they were very clear ramandhar you can go back to all my Twitter profile and say if I have ever opposed the Raman there I found it very I had a problem with using the ram mandir issue to create a hate narrative okay that was always my problem uh again uh if", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-31", "text": "okay that was always my problem uh again uh if you would go back to my um you know I used to address a lot of college people and 370 317 Barbara Congress and this was my 0.2 the 370 is something which was a temporary measure put in place to assimilate people to give them that sense of confidence but we have to start discussing this because the Youth of the country are in other parts of the country is talking about it this was my point of view within the Congress that you know 370 is a point where you all will actually have to work with various stakeholders and have a point of view on recalibrate yeah I would say yes so again on that is something that I totally was in line with uh what she said I thought about it my only thing was about the language and how it was building a narrative so uh when I when I started to work with like I said there was a transition happening their movement they realized that what do they prioritize what is it that", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-32", "text": "that what do they prioritize what is it that the aspiration of people of Maharashtra matches right now and they they've consciously were moving out of that imagery that the the the painted picture of what it was about shivsena where it is totally the like you said it was extreme right so when this transition was happening uh do you think I don't know uh piled is that the view that most uh political reporters have that when uh the shiv Cena started changing uh its priorities that is when it started losing its you know it's MLA is it's the people who felt that Aditya is not not in line with what baltakare had taught them all that's what shindi says right that's what everybody from that I won't go but okay now here's my question to you many from atal bihari vajpayee's era would totally not agree with the era that they are seeing under SRI Narendra Modi bharti isn't the party transitions are part of any political party any political movement what", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-33", "text": "are part of any political party any political movement what it began on and what it is talking about are very different functions so um uh and I will always continue to say whatever the current faction is speaking about 2014 we contested separately we can test it separately we got 63 seats but they say 2019 was the Mandate which was given to the BJP that's for the bjpc yes I'll tell you how many arguments they've offered let me tell you it started with mandate um I'll get to that also I'll get to all the reasoning so they are they are prob there are excuses will never end because they have something to say see there has to be some consistency when people constantly say that udhasa was not available Ram mandir first political party which said Supreme Court needs to take a decision on this once he becomes a chief minister first political chief minister after taking the oath going to ayodhya ramandir and also publicly uh donating to that particular Temple ramandar no", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-34", "text": "uh donating to that particular Temple ramandar no chief minister did that no chief minister did that uh Second about uh hindutva you talk about redeveloping all the temples coming up with the Temple Trail as part of our Manifesto as part of a Manifesto again is it not part of hindutva and which hindutva teaches you that you only have to talk about hateful hindutva which hindutva principles teach you that you can start to backstab you can start to leave parties on uh on on something which is hate driven so I mean that this is quite silly an argument right yeah you can you can uh give different um definitions of hindutva or interpretations of hindutva I get that uh but the point is that you everybody saw them as natural allies the BJP and the shift Cena you went in for an election and that the votes were for a combination of that and then for sure say not to go with the congress party whatever that's all behind closed doors we don't", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-35", "text": "party whatever that's all behind closed doors we don't know what happened so you might have an interpretation Mr Shah might have another interpretation of what that meeting was all about right let's put that aside right just to go with that do you think anybody voted for the shivsena saying that it will be with the congress party okay so I have a question to you 2014 we contested separately that was the highest Alice you've seen I got okay just allow me to complete just allow me to complete so this argument doesn't hold good and now my second question is is this a first in India didn't we see that happen one minute go back to that argument let's go back to that argument you won right 14 but when you won the Maharashtra election it was together no again again I'll just want to complete the pre-poll Alliance came on a certain understanding at that point in time SRI Amit Shah came flew down to Mumbai did this Alliance if you are talking about winning the", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-36", "text": "this Alliance if you are talking about winning the on a base of a combination then backstabbing and saying boss we can't do this we never committed it so that that is also something that every political party will have to think of you it's a long thing that it's some kind of a vishwas ghat or yeah to go with the Congress I'm not saying anything about it okay to form you could sit in the opposition and say like this was the understanding of the BJP if they don't come on board then we're not forming governments or counter question to you okay because the BJP couldn't have probably gone with the congression BJP can go to PDP and former government kashmiris are different so haryana is different is haryana different all my little point of view here is and I I will continue to say for political parties now you are saying they came on an alliance right they came on in Alliance on the base of certain commitments made commitments not lived with and now look at", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-37", "text": "made commitments not lived with and now look at other examples of the alliance is foreign you know the top in in the party very very well was it an easy decision was it a difficult decision was it was it a decision all I can say is that decision came with everyone's consultation within ships absolutely absolutely and I can say it on your channel on your show that he was very much part of the conversation he was part of every minute of that conversation so what caused the change of heart a few years later foreign [Laughter] not realize or did Aditya not realize that there are Rumblings and this is not going to last and that people within his party because so many quit it's not agadas the intelligence was so low that nobody knew yeah I forgot to address that is foreign not having the administrative whatever and we there's a huge problem coming my way so let me resolve that and let's have all hands on board and work towards well that that was your priority you are in touch with", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-38", "text": "that that was your priority you are in touch with every single District every single Booth whether your organization or uh the government uh you know arms everyone and we managed to do a decent job uh may as a political party uh health ministries without him being accessible um that's that's one part he's a shy person so you know he's shy he's reluctant to meet with people you know I mean you you can you probably have access uh to the takaris people did not have not do not have access to how many have access to Amit huh oh yes are we talking about a lot of people you know in fact the ground level workers who have most access to him if he goes to anywhere and pile it's not just the BJP you don't talk about briefed about it you also okay look at Achilles look at Tejas via them look at uh look at any chief minister look at the badals even they even though they have a lot of security again anybody you're comparing it to a", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-39", "text": "of security again anybody you're comparing it to a PJ even during covet the point is that even during covert when they were first as a person as a family that's not true because because we they okay there are three important events that happen in uh um party's Foundation day Guru purnima day and the sharara rally day besides that there's constant engagement with every Booth level worker Ward Shaka everything constant I mean once in every 15 days there's a conversation so this I have seen because the sense of commitment to engaging with your political party members is much higher than I saw in even in the congress party let me also tell you that the sense of communication okay what what do a leadership think and what do they want us to do is there even when we stitched up this Alliance and this Alliance was coming out we did speak to all he did speak to all of them so whether we're doing this through online conversations or whatever there was yes there was a period of three months", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-40", "text": "there was yes there was a period of three months that had three months where he was he had his surgeries back to back two surgeries and after which he he there was a health bubble that was created okay you uh had a very bitter parting with the Congress and you moved to the shiv Cena and then comes this Alliance I mean what did you feel at that time you why would you want to be again in a party which is now going to be no idea which uh I was in a party which was coming in Alliance with the Congress on its own terms and conditions that's point one uh point two was uh point two was that uh even if you saw my um exit letter and my exit letter was not bitter in any way The Parting was bitter but my exit letter or my engagement to them was not my problem was with a couple of people my problem and I must also share this with you that when I joined the shivsena I I was telling sahab I remember that sir", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-41", "text": "I was telling sahab I remember that sir you know I'm coming after 10 years I have worked with the Congress and of course I've criticized you I've criticized uh aditiji also at times especially about The BMC that I used to be very critical so uh what do I do I can't delete those tweets because I stand by them he said absolutely not you don't need to so there was no bitterness per se with the Congress but yes when the game came into an alliance for me it was about a political party which is seeing a situation like this and my duty would be to stand by my party leadership's decision political decision they took that decision and I have to work in sync with them but they came they all came together on a certain set of understanding which which was working very beautifully so you know uh you were talking about accessibility and all that even within the shiv Cena there there was a little bit of angst when you got nominated uh to uh rajya Sabha", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-42", "text": "when you got nominated uh to uh rajya Sabha that you know you were you're a lateral entry in a way you know those who have access to the leadership especially with regional parties which are family-run parties and that happened with you so uh did you feel that resentment within your party no I did not in fact someone had gone on record had said something off the Record he also after the uh held the press conference and said that I don't think this was the right thing for me to say and I withdraw those commands but um again uh Raja Sabha I would say came about because of the mahavika sagari coming together the three different parties coming together and uh after I joined the Cena uh we in the month of October we so we were going through Lok Sabha elections I could not contribute much but during the assembly elections no one from the shivsena can say that I did not travel the length and breadth of the state like I said my commitment to my job and", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-43", "text": "state like I said my commitment to my job and to the decision I've taken is always above 100 so I I traveled across the length and path of uh this state uh whatever the outcome whatever role was given to me I would just take it Hands-On I would say all right I will lead this I will do this I used to come up with ideas and I was grateful that they gave me the platform they allowed me to do what I wanted to and uh heard me out the most important part of being in part of a political system is you feel heard you feel respected for your views many times it was dismissed you know because from my previous experience but here I was being heard I was giving the respect and I was also told that why don't you start working on it and that was a very refreshing change and that made me a lot more confident about creating policy narratives and policy changes so uh I did do all that work uh after the during the elections post elections even with the", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-44", "text": "the during the elections post elections even with the BMC I started coordinating closely with BMC policies what we can streamline better what we can talk about because I only got to understand the workings of The BMC after I started going there you know meeting people Etc so those were things I've tried to do and um it would be unfair for anyone to say that everything has been given to me on a platter really so in rajya Sabha uh you know you you got suspended in rajya Sabha and one has seen you being very very uh militant about certain things you know protesting and certainly raising the profile of your party uh the numbers that you have in uh in in Parliament you certainly make more noise than than yeah and every time that Priyanka asks a question about you know women or something that has happened to women Ashwini vaishnu has his hands off he's like you know now I have no no I have to answer that yeah so uh you you're very", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-45", "text": "have to answer that yeah so uh you you're very active in Parliament uh and you know you you got suspended because it's actually rajya Sabha one had seen those debates which were very erudite the the people who would come to rajya Sabha as students we would listen to it to learn from the way they conduct themselves and from the content of their speeches slowly rajya Sabha has degraded I'm sorry to say use the term degraded but it's become like Lok Sabha the noise and the pushing and the shoving did you at any point of time for that incident that happened in Parliament do you regret what happened that day actually I have no regret and I did not do anything and I repeat anything to deserve that suspension very clear about that and uh and that I speak with that conviction because uh if you look at my parliamentary track record I had never stepped into The Well of the house at that point in time till then never stepped into The Well of", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-46", "text": "time till then never stepped into The Well of the house so you have to understand that a moment was created a moment which was so weird where the business advisory committee had decided that bill is not coming uh revised list of business showed that business coming it was an important issue for me where I thought that you cannot take this decision unilaterally push and shove a bill across on the last day of the parliament and think it's absolutely okay in that one you know and you've allotted just about half an hour one hour for discussion without taking every political party into uh you know consideration or having a discussion when it was already in the business advisory committee decided that it's not coming how can you all make these unilateral changes and that is just not um acceptable to me when you I I will continue to say even if you're in the opposition with one Member of Parliament that Member of Parliament deserves that respect and that voice you can't shove or mute everybody and that is what", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-47", "text": "can't shove or mute everybody and that is what just got me to go inside The Well of the house and protest about it and I was and I I must say I was very careful about uh you know they were going on giving me that that bill in my hand to tear off he said no black people you know I'll tear off the blank paper oh God that you learned from Rahul Gandhi didn't you know that that came from somebody who was charged up and I honestly I was just standing in that uh particular uh you know space and I was just going on saying that this is not right I wouldn't have even gone into the will of rather and it's just a day prior I must share this the prior I had seen Pratap Singh bajwaji get on the table and throw the file at uh I was shocked I was shocked but he was not suspended and it's it was it's your first term in Parliament so for you it must have been you know", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-48", "text": "Parliament so for you it must have been you know like my sisters joked with me when I came out I was like all anger and fury and of course that became a meme and everybody was like of course and I controlled it actually if I look at it I'm like oh my God I'm so angry but I had gone inside the chamber also and I had had this entire shouting face that you can't do this you can't mess around with my career like this I have been the one of the most committed 100 attendance hundred percent whatever you can and there was no reason for you to in hindsight do a suspension and foreign so anyway that is another thing but when I came out and whatever happened happened and I took the decision that I've come I've come to spend my time in the Parliament and contribute that's why I used to tweet out my zero hour every day though it was never acknowledged but I used to tweet it out because I'm committed to my work and", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-49", "text": "tweet it out because I'm committed to my work and I will continue raising those you know in that day uh subsequently so many people got uh suspended I want to find out what did Anil Desai do how did he get suspended exactly life foreign sooner or later because many people told us that because we had suspended 12 of the mlas in the assembly they thought they'd do the same with us in the rajya Sabha they did what they wanted to it's part of the political uh process or decision making whatever they did they did but uh I know and I have no regret so you know um many times there are women politicians uh who get attacked in a similar manner attacked in the sense that uh their aggression is and the whole thing becomes about women but women get trolled on social media women get more uh attacked on you know about their Parliament behavior and stuff but women don't stand with each other yeah that's uh why is it that women parliamentarians don't they they join in in", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-50", "text": "that women parliamentarians don't they they join in in that uh celebration of a woman being attacked why does that they don't join in any woman being attacked let me be uh very clear that uh there's no supports traditional I I and I and it's a matter of regret for me because you know when I started out as a parliamentarian I thought I'll come up with a caucus where women rise above their political differences and stand up for their gender so you know women supporting women is one thing what has happened in the Parliament and I realized and it kind of uh it makes me hope that someday we'll I'll be able to explain it to others for example my own case where I have all whether it was shy if China was getting trolled or whatever I would stand up for her um anybody get enrolled or attacked for an issue which has nothing to do with their political ideas and I would I would definitely stand up but hypocrisy I will learn stand up for if you are", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-51", "text": "hypocrisy I will learn stand up for if you are not speaking up for other women and then you expect support for for women that I will definitely not stand up for you have to make this above your politics unfortunately most of the women in the parliament are are Unfortunately they think that if they go beyond that daira of their political party they might face some consequences because it becomes so vicious like when is attacked there is no way that we see either sushmita Dev or anybody else coming up if uh if smriti Irani is attacked then there's no way you will of course you won't you certainly won't wanna see we have a history you have a history I find it and hypocrisy on her front I will definitely say because uh she took somebody to court because that person called her a very derogatory word and I totally agree with the her taking the call because she's empowered enough and we should do this but when I remember and I've never ever mentioned it two things", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-52", "text": "I remember and I've never ever mentioned it two things which Hit me hard a woman who had a problem with her derogatory word being used for her felt absolutely no guilt in saying foreign to a question that she was asked you know when I had moved from the Congress to ship Cena she was asked a particular question and it will never go out of my mind because you sang yeah I sang a song it became popular so that's basically that politics you you picked up a don't use it I did not use did I use delegate rewards yeah I did not the fact that you picked up her see this is what I'm saying about smriti Rani is that even till date uh when a channel refers to her they say um TV actress turned politician it's that you know it's a subtle way of putting down honestly my point is just this when you picked up that song it was see since she's not your I'm giving you her point of view because it's not a", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-53", "text": "you her point of view because it's not a TV debate but then I will just say this that there's always something like that like Mawa when she does something it you will see that nobody else will because they have a history so listen there's a history for everyone yeah I do Embrace that history many times people tell me that oh you are that turn quote history it was not supposed to be that way so I I if I was someone as famous as that's so Delhi no though you're from Mumbai it's like a successful successful television actress Legacy of work here yeah no she doesn't run away from itself is putting down that people do I don't know I wouldn't look at it as a put down but uh if that that but you calling somebody a Gane Wali is fine with you you know you pulling down um people is absolutely fine that's that's an unfair that's an unfair uh advantage that do you think you can change uh at some point of time yeah absolutely I'll", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-54", "text": "uh at some point of time yeah absolutely I'll be happy to work with any woman Member of Parliament or or for that matter activist or whatever who I have a deferring point of view from to be able to speak about the gender issues see I'll uh while I'm speaking about uh politicians a pile I mean you you know that it even in journalism women journalists don't stand with each other uh in in law they don't stand with each other it's like they you know they feel threatened by other women journalists I don't understand why it happens but it does happen and it more so happens when you reach a certain level when you are at the mid levels make your share of the pie larger rather than fighting over the same share of the pie for example why are you even doing this why are you inviting all this hate whatever whatever and and you know feeling it is it is with every single Indian and that only platforms like movies or television industry you can talk about women", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-55", "text": "like movies or television industry you can talk about women who are empowered without them having to have compromise on anything it's just the ability to be where they are so uh my only thing is that or share of the quitting was not the option for me because I felt I don't want to be a footnote in history I want to be someone who came from the outside world and made an impact uh I don't know if I made an impact or whatever um but so I started this initiative that let's bring in undergrad girls let's teach them how to intern with members of parliament women members of parliament and uh get them an idea of what policy and politics is even if they don't want to get into politics so you would encourage women to get into politics definitely even if someone every time someone asks me and any girl young woman asks me I tell them this is the best time for you to be in politics because suddenly every political party has come to understand there are women women who are", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-56", "text": "has come to understand there are women women who are voting their minds they are coming out in larger numbers to vote and that's a Constance you have to cater to unfortunately politics works like that you'll if you're catering to that particular constancy you will get the results of it so even if a political party is looking at reaping benefits out of more women coming out use that opportunity but do you think do you think most of these political parties just use this merely as a token I would always look at the glasses half full rather than half empty my struggles aside if my struggle encourages more women to come into the system and political parties are talking about from the Red Fort is talking about having more women and empowered women then I think it's a very positive sign for women to step into uh platforms like these and it's encouraging to see that many women are looking at it as something that they could try there is also a time when you know when women were", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-57", "text": "is also a time when you know when women were voting it was they would openly say that Jose like what the husband is going to say we're going to do or what the sarpanch is going to say but uh increasingly at least in two general elections that in the past two general elections one they don't say whom they're going to vote for and not necessary that they're going to vote with what the absolutely sarpanch has told about Bihar was a classic example the last Bihar election was a classic example we just didn't know who they were going to vote for both so that is a very smart way of doing it and I think most of the political parties and the Consultants have become more powerful than the political parties yeah that's another thing about Consultants uh that that you know that now this rise of Consultants uh the non-political consultants in the sense that they've not gone through the politics agnostic but they'll work with all political parties correct they've not worked with the dhul", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-58", "text": "political parties correct they've not worked with the dhul mitti they don't know the ethos of a political party they learn the ethos for the sake of an election they're not ideologically driven they are they are it's the winnability that they are working on how do they build a narrative and once the party wins they become part of the setup and they then get that lateral entry which causes you know I can't think of the English word yeah so how do you do you reconcile with that that okay we are going into this American way of democracy where we need these strategies otherwise it's not possible to win elections actually constancies are so big uh for every Member of Parliament having six assemblies under them and then the population in every assembly is um a lot and if you look at the MP lab funds though people keep abusing criticizing Etc MP funds are never enough to be able to cater to such a large population so at that time when you are absolutely into the last", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-59", "text": "at that time when you are absolutely into the last year of your uh you know election uh your elected term that's when you start to realize okay we'll need some support to be able to streamline this and to get to get people to know what all we've done because uh right but Twitter foreign Ty dipstick surveys and surveys everything becomes so important but then women come out and they say how voted so their reliability is also you know these Consultants reliabilities also comes under the cloud so how do you ensure that they are not deciding your winning combinations but they're ensuring that they're building a narrative I think that is how we uh politics is moving I think BJP tried this Congress tried it Regional parties are trying it and then realizing for example uh West Bengal TMC understood that you know they their connect has to be direct it cannot be via some person in between right uh now you know you are in a party which is in a state of flux and I don't", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-60", "text": "which is in a state of flux and I don't know by the time we now we're recording and by the time we air it you might lose your symbol you might get a new symbol the name of the party is in flux which who which party are you going to be that also Nobody Knows by the time the formulations change you know in the in the party due at any point of time think that galti yoga not at all and let me tell you there's going to be no confusion about which side of the faction I'm on I am without Reggie I will repeat this like 100 times over even if there are three people five people ten people we are going to be fighting this out but I also know very clearly that the huge support that has come forward especially the women in Maharashtra right now is worth observing it is worth observing so what is being discussed here are the Election Commission in customs but the it is only working to consolidate that this has happened incorrectly has", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-61", "text": "to consolidate that this has happened incorrectly has bypassed all civil behavior of democracy Democratic principles and constitutional Norms Maharashtra is if you've seen its voting pattern it's pretty clear it doesn't go backing one political party it you know divide the votes usually are divided so uh but we are seeing we are seeing a consolidation happen and hopefully we will continue to build on that momentum because uh the acceptability of that faction is really um was a challenge we are in 22 now 24 is you know when the Lok Sabha elections happen yeah assuming the elections will happen so we are assuming that you know sometime mid-2024 we'll have the looks of elections in your assembly elections does Mr takare have enough time on his hands to still you know tell people that you know yes I'm out of power yes things have gone wrong but I'm there I'm going to be able to will you be able to you know uh come out at the as a leader that people saw him probably", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-62", "text": "at the as a leader that people saw him probably in so uh two things I'd like to say here eight um I see an Assembly Election happening much before 24. for the sustainability of this government I honestly have my doubts because even if you look at the 10 schedule you look at the anti-defection law you look at the election commission there is no leg for them to stand upon very honestly anti-diffection law very categorically States leadership you defect to the uh but to defect to another party to join another party to merge into another party or and that merging into the party will be decided by the party president not you as a flow leader or a CLP leader because legislative party in the 10 schedule makes it very different from a political party makes it very different from a parliamentary party so that that is that that is one argument and if you look at the Spirit of anti-directional clearly either you go to the people with a new party are you preparing for that they will have", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-63", "text": "new party are you preparing for that they will have to prepare for it they're not the ones who's going to be suspended no but are you ready for uh yes yeah absolutely absolutely the polls and to your question about uh building on that momentum uh little history about even if you look at how shivsena has functioned every time we have seen this kind of of course the the level and scope is much higher what we see right now but at that point in time SRI Raj thakre leaving the party someone from the family leaving the party and accusing of everything uh we we continue to fight he took a different name he was a nephew chief minister everything leaves goes to Congress then he goes to BJP and now every day from you know all the press conference so that happens but it's this is a much on a much larger scale of course of course and if you don't get the symbol you don't get the name or if the name gets split into two this faction and that", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-64", "text": "the name gets split into two this faction and that faction yeah if it no not not necessarily but whatever you know if it becomes shiv Cena shinde or shiv Sena takare or whatever do you do you see a dilution of uh the vote share no um I it is it is very clear that this is a very short-term arrangement for the bharti janta party to back someone but I doubt I have sincere doubts see ultimately the water votes and the water the sentiment that we see on ground right now is very clearly of a betrayal would you would you advise to do something like a Bharat jodo in Maharashtra we are actually Aditya is already doing that he's been touring the length and breadth of the State uh he's gone through the 40 assemblies where this Rebellion happened he's been there the members of parliament who have suicides so those are the constituencies he's been there too first um uh udavji will also begin he was he's making a plan", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-65", "text": "will also begin he was he's making a plan pose to share our we have posted the share a rally because that was the immediate challenge for us we've done that so pass that bypass the kind of popularity that you all would have seen that came naturally organically for him uh and moving forward I'm sure he'll do the Maharashtra to it as well and what about you what do you see your uh future in the party so as far as I'm concerned I have uh I would say that in terms of uh doing whatever I can in whether it is the pratham initiative whether it is the mahila agari whether it is in the parent party whatever responsibility that comes my way I will like I said I have always given my hundred percent I'll probably this time we'll have to give it more than that so you're going to tell your trolls in social media I'm here I'm not leaving yeah I don't need to explain to them okay that's the spirit thank you so much for speaking thank you", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "786c1332d0af-66", "text": "the spirit thank you so much for speaking thank you so much thank you so much for having me that was my conversation with Member of Parliament Priyanka chaturvedi thank you for listening in please like And subscribe to whichever Channel you have heard this on namaste foreign [Music]", "source": "GaZ3XdhjdzU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-0", "text": "we hit back after palawama we cross the line of control we overflow Pakistan occupied Kashmir we crossed the international boundary we hit inside proper Pakistan balakot is in Pakistan is not in Pakistan occupied Kashmir so that is where we Bridge their air defense system we Bridge their Pakistan Air Force we hit and we came back safely now that is the strength military strength of a Nation Pakistan Army till date has not been able to answer to the public foreign foreign welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is General kavaljit Singh dhillon now many of you might know him from his Twitter Avatar was this legendary tweet that he did about Kashmir and now it's in a book form many of his friends and colleagues know him as Tiny Dylan even though he's six feet plus but then he was once on the hot seat in Kashmir Jen Dylan thank you so much for coming to my podcast it's an honor to have you here so uh we all know you uh", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-1", "text": "have you here so uh we all know you uh as the man in the hot seat in Kashmir uh we also know you from your Twitter Avatar and specially your uh that famous tweet kitne gazi eye that is that was a legend when you made that and you know so many people admire you for being so forthright on Twitter but of course I mean uh you were there when pulwama Bala caught all these things I'll come one by one uh to all of them but my first question of course would be on bulbama you were there you were posted in Kashmir then yes so you know there was a lot which was talked about that it was whether it was an intelligence failure whether it was a systems failure could you tell us what happened then good afternoon first of all Obama was a very sad incident it was I had taken over 15 core on 10th of February and 14th February happened so it is just after four days and initially we did not know the magnitude of the incident but", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-2", "text": "we did not know the magnitude of the incident but by and by when you came to know when the number of casualties became clear we realized how big the incident was and coming to your question specific was it an intelligence failure here I would like to clarify a few things we have enemy who is always up to a mischief on the line of control inside the hinterland in Kashmir in Mainland India every time so the number of incidents which are avoided or which are not allowed to take place because of the intelligence agencies the security forces the synergy those incidents or the numbers don't come out in the media or in the public domain and there's a reason for it Suppose there is an incident which was to happen and we have got the with of it we picked up the chatter and we avoided that incident now if we announce it that this has happened and this is what we did and Pat our backs openly the enemy would come to know how we picked it up and how we not", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-3", "text": "know how we picked it up and how we not allowed it to happen so it's a game in the intelligence where you don't say what you have been able to avoid right so that enemy doesn't pick up your capabilities your resources your assets so coming back to palawama if out of 100 incidents which were planned by the enemy 99 are not allowed to happen and unfortunately I repeat again unfortunately one incident happens and that incident happened to be a very big one so that does not mean in any way that the intelligence agencies are not doing their job because they were able to avoid say 99 robot or numbers one is incident is unfortunately that's agreed but we cannot start blaming our intelligence agency or Security Forces because they are in the line of fire literally every day they're away from their families they are losing their life and limb of course for the nation and I would request all those people who shouted from the rooftops that it was Intelligence failure to spare a thought spare a thought that", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-4", "text": "failure to spare a thought spare a thought that type of job we are doing there is a whole nation which is behind this there's a proper regular army which is doing all this now to curtail the actions of those people which are being planned at that level it takes lots of efforts but so my question is it's not to castigate but to ask where was there some systems like the the Sops were not followed maybe that there was some failure in that would you say Mom I have seen Kashmir like you have seen for last more than 30 years how initially the Conway used to move how the road used to be closed the link roads used to be blocked and nobody was allowed to come on the roadside then when the terror graph came down when the incidents came down the piece more or less got established so a lot of things were relaxed it was because the general public was feeling the pinch and there were somehow not allowed to move on the road where the military convoys or the", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-5", "text": "on the road where the military convoys or the BSF or the police conways are moving so buy and buy with this civilian traffic also coming on the roads and over the last 30 years the number of vehicles which have increased the automobiles the two wheelers which have ingredient people are using it so there was uh I'll say very less checking or control over the civilian traffic onto the roads when the military convoys were moving yeah so the terrorists took advantage of this uh relaxation of our security forces wherein we were doing it for our public they are good and they took advantage of this and they in a civil vehicle in a civil mode they entered the convey and rest as well where they blew off the vehicle so if those civilians were not allowed on the road this incident would not have how did it change the situation on the ground because uh an attack like this it does demoralize so how do you how do you keep keep it going with your with your men how do you keep", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-6", "text": "going with your with your men how do you keep them motivated when something like this happens so many casualties exactly the same point how to keep the morale High I had written a detailed chapter in my book which we can talk later but on that day on Twitter on Instagram on Facebook for next three days from our dialogue from a popular Hindi movie how is the Josh was changed to how is the Jesh referring to jaise Muhammad especially all the Pakistani handles so we knew as a system as a security forces that we need to hit back at the earliest I still remember going for a meeting that evening where all the security agencies and the intelligencies are meeting my ADC a young Captain he asked me sir pardon my language I will get the bastards and we did exactly that as a very concerted effort of intelligence and security within 48 within 100 hours we eliminated the module which had carried out the plurama incident and that is where the morale which you refer to morale came", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-7", "text": "where the morale which you refer to morale came back the best way to liven up the soldiers morale is to achieve success in soldiers life incidents will happen bad incidents will happen that does not mean we sit back and keep crying over it I'll tell you about Special Forces of India Whenever there is an accident when the parrot drop from aircraft sometimes the parachute doesn't open or malfunctions or there's something which goes wrong when there is an incident within next few hours the whole Battalion goes up and jumps again the commanding of the leading this is how you bring in the confidence back this is how you keep the morale High and success is the best medicine to have high moral and we achieved success within 100 hours do you think that pulbama in some way was a turning point where even the political leadership felt that this cannot go unavenged now every incident of Terror in my opinion needs to be hit back we as a nation a nation of our strength not only", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-8", "text": "as a nation a nation of our strength not only in Manpower but economy and Military we cannot afford to take any nonsense from anyone we need to hit back and I'm very happy and glad that the government decided to hit back and I was part of that so there is no way we can take Terror in any form on any citizen of India at any place in India you had a question uh Ajit on pulvama that you wanted to ask about uh sir uh when you people uh when the attack happened you had just taken over uh and uh I remember it very uh clearly we had met you at the maneksha center where you told us that I'll be going this would be exciting day 15th core 15. there was some function in manaksha Center yeah so uh you were very excited to take up the assignment when the news first came to you how was the feeling sir was it in some way were you were you worried that oh what has happened I've just come", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-9", "text": "that oh what has happened I've just come and this has happened for 10 years you had done before this was three ten years total of eight ten years ago sessions and six of them in Kashmir in Kashmir so yeah this was sixth one this was the sixth one okay so how how how did you react personally sir like we know uh how you motivated others how you took out Jazz Terrace how you took out the entire network how people were afraid to join Jess after this incident but what was the personal feeling sir so personal feeling like I told earlier initially the gravity of the incident was not very clear in first few minutes as would happen we call it fog of war or in a combat situation the clarity comes slowly and slowly so when the moment this incident happened I called up Mr zolofkar Hassan who was igp crpf and he had also got the intimation just then I immediately put in all the aviation resources that the helicopters at my", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-10", "text": "all the aviation resources that the helicopters at my command in my dispose at my disposal in 15 core all the helicopter fleet was put on a lot and told to fly to palawama to pick up the coyotes the 92 base Hospital was told to get on high alert all the doctors the nurses were told to report to the trauma center in wherever they are whichever dressed they are and they were prepared to handle massive casualties all the ambulances in Srinagar were got together and moved towards palawama so that anyone who is not able to be flown out can be moved by what because just for 20 odd minutes drive from there so first thing was this to manage the casualties in the meantime when I spoke to the Brigadier who was Aeros sector Commander when he told me the type of the losses which have taken place I spoke to the dgmo Jalen Johann present CDs was the dgmo I continuously uh kept speaking to him and kept giving", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-11", "text": "continuously uh kept speaking to him and kept giving him the updates and spoke to Jal rawat who was the Army Chief at that time and thereafter once we manage the casualties and as a commander in any combat situation you can't afford to lose control of yourself if you lose control of yourself you lost control of the situation incidents will happen situations will come in the combat zone which you have to face unfortunately for me I had number of 10 years before that and I had various encounters and cases so it was nothing new to me but yes the the the gravity was new to me but immediately after that we had a meeting that evening and there afterwards like I said earlier we go down to business of gathering intelligence and here I would like to say it's not that the intelligence came in a lap we've worked for it for next 48 hours none of my commanders or commanding officers or police SPS or digs none of them slept for next two days they were", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-12", "text": "of them slept for next two days they were continuously on operations were hitting all the known or slightly known hideouts or the sympathizers places so that we don't let them come to a place and relax we wanted them to keep shifting if they will shift they will talk people will see we will get the intelligence so we've worked in a very concerted plan to get the intelligence about this module which finally after 48 hours we got it in pengalana village and we launched an oppression immediately we coordinated the whole thing with police crpf intelligences and we Lodge the pressure and in that oppression in the initial few minutes but hats off to 55 raster rifles and Jammu Kashmir police not a single boy had the lowering of morale in spite of the initial setback and we eliminated the complete module by evening of 18th February right so you uh you mentioned General rawat we all know you and uh General rawat had a special relation and he had firm belief in you and sometimes", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-13", "text": "relation and he had firm belief in you and sometimes mom he told us that uh one day it was a kargil widgets all three Chiefs had gone to lay president then president was had come down to Srinagar I was with the president at the Srinagar airport and all the chiefs were in Lay but the president could not fly to because of the weather and he laid that he said the Srinagar yeah uh this war memorial which we organized within 30 minutes and the president led the wreath and paid his homage incidentally Cargill war was fought under 15 core that 10 14 core was not there so all the names of the Cargill uh was from there in that war memorial yeah so it was absolutely in place for the president to Las told me one day the weather is packing up so he says yeah so uh sir I just wanted to ask you pulvama happened he was the chief what was his mandate to you the chief he gave you a lot of space", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-14", "text": "you the chief he gave you a lot of space he was very clear he gave you space for oppressions for intelligence for administration he was not the one who would keep asking every five days or 10 days or 20 days what's happening why this why not he appointed your court Commander then he'll let you be there afterwards it's up to you to call up the chief and give him a feedback if something very important has happened although he never interfered with the job now coming back to specific about palawama like I said earlier I was feeding the dgmos feeding the Army commander and I spoke to Jal rawat he never asked me because every time a senior officer calls you up to check on what you are doing it creates an environment of pressure he himself being such a combat man having been an oppression throughout his life he realized the importance of not calling up the field Commanders I learned this one I also never call up my field commanders so he gives space and feedback he", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-15", "text": "field commanders so he gives space and feedback he was always getting so he was very sure that things are moving in the right direction but he never interfered at the ground level so um from pulvama let's go to uh what happened at Bala Court you know there are so many versions that one has heard you've heard politicians talk about it there's media reporting and there was a lot of controversy also so you know the Pakistan got the narrative lead on that and they managed to manipulate uh International opinion and to some extent even Indian opinion in the media in certain sections of the media so while there was an operations part of it there was also the ground situation in India and then there was a media element to it you saw all that happening so could you give us shed some light on what happened then from I'll put it little differently point is we did it we hit back after palawama we use the Air Force we cross the line of control we overflow Pakistan occupied", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-16", "text": "we cross the line of control we overflow Pakistan occupied Kashmir we crossed the international boundary we hit inside proper Pakistan balakotas in Pakistan is not in Pakistan Kashmir so that is where we Bridge their air defense system we Bridge their Pakistan Air Force we hit and we came back safely now that is the strength military strength of a Nation now on ground people can have their own versions I will go by what the government and the Air Force version is and that is what is final with me I will not go into the politics or what the politicians are saying as a soldier I would know if our Air Force has reached there they have bombarded that place they have achieved their aim now I am not going to quantification because that would get into the political uh Arena which I want to know what did your people feel then on the ground you know those who lost uh their men they they might have lost family uh in polvama and and of course you eliminated the terror but uh Terra module as you", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-17", "text": "eliminated the terror but uh Terra module as you said within a hundred hours but then when balacode happened it must have given this surge of confidence isn't it um I'll give you a small uh if I happened where we lost 40 crpf bravehearts line of control in kupada sector is at a different level there are different units the Army deployed there when our aircraft crossed the line of control by the way they went into balakot through my area so when they crossed the lane or control the boy on the duty there told this company Commander he called me up directly and the choppiness the Josh in his voice but that is what balakot did to the morale of every Indian not only a soldier I could see that thing on the telephone earphone and the way this young boy young major was trying to tell me sir guy but he he couldn't even wait to tell his children you can see uh General that in spite of so many operations you're getting emotional even", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-18", "text": "spite of so many operations you're getting emotional even thinking back on that because it was important for us to hit back and I'm very glad that government decided to hit back and hit back hard but these are decisions which are taken with a lot of foresight and it takes a lot of planning I mean that every time there is an incident you hit back immediately but to restrain yourself is also a big task isn't it I'm it's a very considered decision you have to weigh the pros and cons you have to wear your own vulnerabilities you have to wear your strengths you have to see enemies vulnerability and then you hit you go to cover your deficiencies and vulnerabilities before you hit so that in case there's a Counter-Strike you don't get hit further badly right so this is a military appreciation and I'm glad it was done to the Precision and when we decided to go in nobody knew including Pakistan that tonight Indian Air Force will go in and that is the", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-19", "text": "Indian Air Force will go in and that is the type of secrecy which was maintained talking about secrecy I mean you've done uh Intel uh like I said earlier that you must be seeing because you're so active on social media that when you see this kind of disinformation deliberate misinformation which goes on month to say that what she's saying is wrong with I have the information but you can't because when you are in this hot seat you cannot you cannot tell them that what you are doing what you're saying is wrong but the real stuff is this I remember the lighter note a lot of noise is always good for intelligence fog of War as you wish so that your actual intelligence then doesn't get picked up okay you had a question on Balor Court sir uh I wanted to ask you like uh 2016 when URI happened the special forces were sent in to Pakistan that was a surprise and uh so they never expected that we'll come back so hard this time in post Paloma the Air Force", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-20", "text": "so hard this time in post Paloma the Air Force was given the opportunity and they did what they had to they crossed over attacked was the Army also ready with a plan at that time sir because it was your area it had happened in your AR uh was the Army also ready with options to carry out cross-border strikes I don't know how much you are into Sufi music or guzzles this is a very famous Ghazal but yes URI was there I forgot completely to ask about URI I mean that that got famous of course when it happened then I had interviewed at that time even the Prime Minister would URI and he's he spoke about that and he you know I told him that when that when that strike happened suppose the people didn't come back our men didn't come back alive then that comes on you that you're a warmonger and you've also you know your men had also gone so he did say in his own way that it would it till they came", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-21", "text": "his own way that it would it till they came back safe and his first question was that his first question to his people whoever he called up I don't know he was monitoring them he was monitoring he just wanted to know have all of them come back alive what they have hate were how much success and all is a later part but prime minister was very very clear that that he wanted to know have not leave behind anybody man leave behind I mean that's that's legendary that you you know the Indian army doesn't leave behind uh any of their people so can you tell me how uh URI was was also another success Point surgical strike of URI was a wonderful oppression very meticulously planned with military position and the point which you made about suffering casualties during operations my way of looking at it is some things are too honorable to even die for so when you are doing an operation for your nation even dying is okay it is part of the training you and not leaving Men", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-22", "text": "is part of the training you and not leaving Men Behind in NDM you don't leave your bicycle behind if a bicycle gets punctured or the chain breaks or anything you carry it lug it on a shoulder you don't leave it behind like I said it's part of the training so in training we are told not to leave a bicycle behind how can we leave a man behind Indian army does not leave its dead behind unlike Pakistan Army which during Cargill left their soldiers on the Indian soil and refused to reclaim their mortal remains even when offered it is the Indian army which gave them a decent value as per the religious rituals yeah yeah and they refused it even during when I was the court Commander in kupada sector the five dead bodies were lying on the line of control they were trying to infiltrate they refused to take them back we have different heaters our value systems are different so our culture is different as you told us to your boy saw", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-23", "text": "different as you told us to your boy saw the aircraft going across the loc and hitting in Targets in Pakistan what was the preparation that you did for the uh counter attack from the Pakistani Serpa because they did come back on 27th operation Swift where they missed all the targets uh that is a different story but how was the Army prepared how how you had planned to check any retaliation from their side on ground I'll answer a question in two parts one is a very good journalist you are insisting on the same question again second is we had covered all eventualities and all contingencies I will leave it at that all contingencies were catered For and did they try to do anything on ground the Pakistan they are not come to article 370. when uh when the when it was taken off uh entire media by the way man this question of did Pakistan do anything Pakistan Army till date has not been able to answer to the public because foreign yeah article 317 I'm going to ask you on that", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-24", "text": "yeah article 317 I'm going to ask you on that because uh you know the media uh abroad and even some part of Indian media said or you know observers military observers they said that the death toll would be you know close to a hundred close to 200 300 and even could go up to thousands everybody thought there would be massive Bloodshed the whole operation was done in such a secret manner there was a lot of movement previous day nobody knew okay even the governor was giving mixed signals couldn't understand what is happening there must have been a lot of planning I'm sure you can't reveal much about what happened and how the planning to it but now that a little time has passed could you give us a glimpse about the pre-stage of Articles how did you prepare for what happened now firstly it was a government's decision to abrogate article 370 35a delimitation and reorganization of the state into union territories uh for us as a security forces it was to be implemented the", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-25", "text": "as a security forces it was to be implemented the government's rate must run on each and every inch of ground of India we could not and we would not have allowed anyone to not allow Indian government state to be run in India so for us the aim was very clear it's a government decision which has been passed by the parliament accented by the president honorable president it has to be implemented now coming back to your point as to before 370. I have written in detail in my book and I've only written about two percent of the actions which were done still it has taken three chapters oh my God and the type of preparation which was made knowingly unknowingly and most important was the point to maintaining secrecy in the Army in May 15 core not a single person knew as to what's going to happen same was the case with the police the Civil Administration very very few people knew what is going to happen that was the secrecy and every eventuality every contingency was scattered forth so there's", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-26", "text": "eventuality every contingency was scattered forth so there's a lot of details which were coordinated one thing I can tell you all the discussions happened between two and a half people in core commanders doing room and you won't tell us who those two and a half so okay nothing was discussed outside Four Walls of the core Commander to England because that place was considered the most secure place and once that day once it was abrogated and the next 48 hours were crucial or the next 72 hours or next one week what was that crucial time period when you felt okay we haven't lost men civilians haven't died which means we are doing our job properly what was that that crucial period of time Kashmir situation can change in a second okay so when we went in after 5th of August 2019 the two amps like I said earlier one is the government's rate must run second was while implementing it there should be no loss of life of civilian no damage to property public or private and", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-27", "text": "of civilian no damage to property public or private and it has to be implemented in totality okay so we had given ourselves an open-ended aim and close to about three months not a single civilian casualty happened at the hands of security forces those was the most peaceful three months in the history of terrorism in Kashmir in last 32 years at a stretch wherein you didn't have any loss of property private or public no loss of civilian life all the casualties which happened happened by the terrorist a gun Terrace Two Gun Down civilians who were opening shops or truck drivers or Orchard owners but nothing happened from the government side and it got implemented very very peacefully the credit has to go to all the security forces intelligence agencies Jammu Kashmir police civil Administration and above everyone the avam of Kashmir Joseph you've spoken about a selective Amnesia in Kashmir of you know people uh preferring never to talk or not to talk about uh The Exodus of kashmiri uh Hindus", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-28", "text": "uh The Exodus of kashmiri uh Hindus from German Kashmir and you know moving to safer locals in in the rest of the country and uh it's something that was not spoken about for decades uh I've seen it happening you know the first Exodus the second Exodus Third Exodus I've seen people just keeping silence over that but when you did speak about this selective Amnesia I'm going to quote from a website uh and because you you you tend to speak you you tend to speak your mind just like General rawat did and this time I was in service you were in service right now it that website and I quote from it it said generals the General's plain speak is a departure from standard that guides civil military relations and cannot be allowed to go unremarked true a president has already been set by his boss the chief of Defense staff CDs General bipin rawat who has done so repeatedly over the years since his elevation to the post of army Chief since that", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-29", "text": "elevation to the post of army Chief since that has become rawat's trademark it is somewhat normalized perhaps allowing his subordinates to take a cue genza did it did you take a cue from general rawat or or is this something that you believed in and you felt that these old rules don't hold it's time to speak up now first of all whosoever wrote that um leave that at that okay now second point is ma'am I have seen Kashmir since 1988. six tenures Captain major left knuckle CEO Brigade Commander bgs score Commander so I have seen how people have kept quiet on things which have happened May It Be kashmiri panditas may it be the number of exoduses which you spoke about may it be the innocent civilian Skilling made be the girls and women getting killed at Point Blank Range the people who otherwise make too much noise decided to keep quiet on those my point is be normal you make a noise now you make a noise then we accept you but", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-30", "text": "now you make a noise then we accept you but to keep quiet when it suits you and to shout when it doesn't suit you is what mile is referring to they don't receive the hypocrisy without getting into the politics of it because that seminar was on 30 years of terrorism I said why are those people who are you know championing certain causes why are they not speaking how the kashmiri society has been hit in the same talk I had said why people are not talking about the mother of a terrorist who lost a son I have a lot of yes foreign her son would have been with her her son would have been a grown-up man would have been learning well after having got good education her son did not get good education he did not go to school he didn't go to college instead he went as a Canon folder to the terrorist and got killed in an encounter so I want these people or for that matter anyone would like these people to speak about these issues but he", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-31", "text": "like these people to speak about these issues but he doesn't suit them yeah because the mother is going to turn around that operation Mao was uh was this mainstreaming of you know bringing people who were Stone pelters boys who were Stone pelters bringing them into mainstream work uh asking mothers to get involved uh asking them to speak to their children that was a very uh it was a kind of a turning point in these counter-terror operations wasn't it or what should I say counter terror is not the word umbrella but uh some kind of bringing those you know misguided youths into uh into mainstream work uh that was something I'm sure it must have been very close to your heart yes ma'am uh mother is very close to my heart it's close to every person's heart but for different reasons but I'll go back to Kashmir as a young captain or as a young major when I was operating in North Kashmir any local terrorist who was eliminated or killed in an encounter those days mobiles", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-32", "text": "or killed in an encounter those days mobiles were not there invariably we would recover a letter from his body which either he has written to the mother and not yet posted or mother has written and he's received it so that told me that boys in kashmiri society are very close to their mother as against being close to the father maybe the mother is the custodian of the family and stays close so that is where I realized that they listened to their mother so when I become a core Commander the first thing I said was let's involve the mothers into this like I just now said no one has understood the grief of the mother of terrorists so we started operation Ma and I don't use the word surrender I use the word return We involve the mothers we involve the you know opinion makers the sarpanches the friends who this boy will listen to and there have been instances where the counter-terror oppression was stopped halfway through the mother or the brother or somebody was called will", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-33", "text": "mother or the brother or somebody was called will speak to them on the loud Heller the loudspeaker or on the mobile and try and convince that boy to come out they also have been times when the boys recharge Mobility charge had run out we paid for that recharge so that he can talk to his mother and his life can be saved and during that one year more than 50 boys more than 50 boys returned under the supply Sharma which was of course it was a thought which went in first but later on everyone joined in the security forces the Civil Administration Jammu Kashmir police even the locals the opinion makers the elders so there were people who would come to me and say sir Assurance was there will be no police case made against the boy that he will not be harassed he will not be asked to come to the police station or the court or anything there will be just no police case second is he would be given the option of where does he want to start his new life if", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-34", "text": "where does he want to start his new life if he is eligible and qualified he could have been taken as a special police officer in the Jammu Kashmir police there is a territorial Army home and hearth if he fits all the criterias and qualifies physically and education wise he could have been taken into territory army or if he wants to go to Jammu or Chandigarh start a new life as a auto driver or whatever depending on his education and depending on his capability all facilities were provided financially and administratively for them to start a new life we did not leave it at that okay is come back we followed it through them you've done so many tenures in uh in Kashmir I have to ask you this simply because uh you know there's this thing that uh there is ground support and there's always been ground support for Pakistan in Kashmir jab cricket match they support the uh the Pakistani team not the Indian team you might tell people that that's not the case there's just one", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-35", "text": "people that that's not the case there's just one or two incidents that happen but there's one or two incidents just the fact that somebody can waver Pakistani flag because in India Pakistan cricket match is not just a cricket match it's much more than that everybody knows it so when when you are there do you did you did you feel that that ground support is weakening or is it just as strong or is it so inherenta mom again I've seen it since my captain days the point which you're making yes that feeling was there 80s and 80s and 90s and that then came the radicalization and then there's one very important thing we all miss out in kashmiri society in the last 35 years or so the education kashmiri pandits everyone talks about us everyone talks about but when kashmiri pandits went out or Kashmir the way education system in Kashmir crumbled because kashmiri pandits were the Mainstay of education system primary schools overnight that system of Education", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-36", "text": "of education system primary schools overnight that system of Education crumbled and all the schools were of wooden buildings terrorists burned down all schools in the Countryside what is like what's happening in Afghanistan so that they become Canon photo and that started happening once the child is not educated the socio-political economic impact of terrorism was felt this boy and who personally you must see this whole game huriyat would call for a hotel every second day yeah a businessman Japanese school he cannot catch up because yeah and then in the end of the Academic Year in Mass promotion to the next class so as a result when he came to 10th or 12th he was not qualified enough to compete in competitive exams yeah to get into a good college or a good University or a professional College so what was he left with he was left with only option to join terrorism yeah or else crossed the border recruiting get trained and come back so this was a very you know well thought of ecosystem which was working yeah", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-37", "text": "know well thought of ecosystem which was working yeah but there was also uh we keep talking about deer radicalization but there was a time in the 90s in that Village he was the hero the one who went into terrorism not even in the hardcore areas which were considered no-go area literally he will go in and they used to prosper it's not as if that you know that Village did not Prosper or that family did not Prosper they prospered beta terrorism again there was enough money to send their daughter to a medical college or to send her to America or to send your other son to America you sent to Europe or wahape there was another ecosystem they were looked after but that ecosystem has failed that support system seems to have broken down do you did did you see that happening in your time [Music] you have to understand one thing man we all have to understand one thing everything which is becoming lucrative and you were used as becoming Heroes you have to make it", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-38", "text": "were used as becoming Heroes you have to make it expensive for that person is this is what the security forces did I'll give you the data figures which I got very often between 89 sorry 2019 and 18. one and a half two years of data all the local boys who had joint terrorism seven percent died in the first 10 days Seventeen percent died in the first three months including the seven thirty four percent died in the first six months 64 percent died in the first one year that may now becoming a terrorist was not becoming a hero it was a sure showed death yeah not just monetarily it is death death it is death and another data which we had was all those boys who joined terrorism 83 percent of them had a record of stone pelting that means today a mother might feel he's going out throwing Stone earning 500 rupees coming back now once this realization came and I'm talking with data and facts and figures once this relation came that heropanti came down and also that romanticization which", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-39", "text": "heropanti came down and also that romanticization which was happening with the stone pelters and that was done uh uh you know not just by by people by the people of Kashmir who could be misled but also by some of the leaders in Kashmir political leaders thought leaders and some of our media people also who said that no they are they are just protesters and they are people who wanted change that romanticizing went away that that was also a thing to someone I will not talk about the politicians but I will tell you something which happened because of opening up of the media or the globalization or the internet people started coming to know what's happening in Pakistan occupied Kashmir the families or the people or the boys who had gone out and not returned now they were settled in Pakistan occupied Kashmir they were 30 years of age 35 years married with kids the way they were being treated there people realize um how will they help us even if there is ajadi so lot of things happen hold", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-40", "text": "there is ajadi so lot of things happen hold went down the shelf life of a terrorist went down the economic Aid which was coming was curtailed and the life across the line of control of fellow kashmiris all these were in addition then when your boy is there you are a mother I am a father when your child does not get admission in a good school or a good Cola jury doesn't score wealth yeah and you don't know what to do with him or his life or her life foreign you still are in touch with a lot of people a lot of journalists they are in touch with you um and ma'am talked about cricket matches Pakistan people in Srinagar uh waving Pakistani Flags during victories of Pakistan a cricket team now today sir if we ask you not about politicians not about but general public what is what is Pakistan for them like what comes to their mind or what is their feeling about Pakistan uh what happened was uh after partition till 89 it was just about", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-41", "text": "was uh after partition till 89 it was just about 40 odd years so the Elder generation had seen the partition Elder generation had seen how the West Pakistan refugees who came to Kashmir were not even given the citizenship of India and how they were treated but the Young Generation which are joining terrorism in 89s and 90s had not seen partition or the Pakistan side of it but today like I said with the global village and the internet and other things coming up today everyone is very clear Pakistan is not supporting terrorism to help a kashmiri Cause Pakistan is spotting terrorism to help their own cause of keeping Kashmir card alive so that they keep getting the AIDS from different parts of the world in the name of what's happening in Kashmir and also within Pakistan politically economically militarily diplomatically the failing on all fronts to keep the anger of the public away from these things they have to play the Kashmir card and Sir so everyone today is intelligent enough understand this game young boys", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-42", "text": "today is intelligent enough understand this game young boys who have interacted with incorrect matches and other places they will tell you in a private moments that's why this is all these youth who are joining the terror groups the youngsters especially those born in late 90s early 2000s those who are joining they are joining terrorist terrorist groups for the Islamic Jihad or for the cause of Kashmir wow what do you think suppose what is the main driving force what is this point as per 2011 census 62 percent of the population of Kashmir Jammu and Kashmir that time German Kashmir was below the age of 30 years in 2011 today this figure might have gone to 67.68 percent that means two-thirds of population of Kashmir two third of the population is less than 30 years of age which directly implies that two-thirds of the young population was born after 1989. they were born and brought up under the gun culture yeah they have faced the attached issues when there is a combat situation or a conflict", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-43", "text": "when there is a combat situation or a conflict situation this shinach parades all these things your father being questioned in front of you when you're a five-year-old boy yeah the terrorists walking into a home at night and telling your mother or sister to cook food for them at the gunpoint these things have had scar on their side yeah so there is a issue there we need to understand a kashmiri person how he thinks yeah and today that time it was all the equation of Romanticism but today is a realism at 30 years of age is a man enough to understand what is right what is wrong okay so the realization is coming in coupled with that the economic packages which are going in the number of medical colleges the opportunities are increasing if the nine medical colleges which are come up in Kashmir that means those many people can join Medical College now they will not be looking for a different thing after 10th or 12th class so those opportunities the economic opportunities the", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-44", "text": "class so those opportunities the economic opportunities the education system improving slowly and slowly and then realization that Pakistan will that mute or will that negate that what Ajit was talking about this desire to be part of the Islamic Jihad memo 100 percentage [Laughter] but yes reasonable section of the society huh in my opinion which is considered opinion and informed opinion based on certain facts and life I've seen in last 35 years in Kashmir majority of the population now looks for good education good job settle life good family life you know prosperity for the children yeah good house travel abroad and nice decent settled life a family life since you're mentioning Family Life foji family life now that uh you're uh you know you've retired and you can actually you know have relaxed family life you don't have to you can have your cup of tea and more than cup of tea I think now you're having Sumptuous breakfast I see in your Twitter handle you put this fabulous pictures of", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-45", "text": "in your Twitter handle you put this fabulous pictures of breakfast and I think you know okay then maybe retired okay how is retired life treating you uh my retired life is State of Mind okay when you're working you can act like a retired and when you're retired you can act like a working person I do a lot of work for myself for my family for my household even gardening even writing letters even speaking to people whom you have not been able to interact for a very long time so that keeps you occupied enjoying like because there was a food I love food and I love cooking also yeah I have seen that and even your Twitter you know uh you take down trolls with with a lot of Grace and even when you were in service you were tweeting did you did that come up love for a little bit of conflict at times that you know because serving officers usually don't interact much even if they have they have this Shady Twitter handle just memorable they don't inform who", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-46", "text": "Shady Twitter handle just memorable they don't inform who they are what was it like when you were in service and you had that Twitter and before that I'll answer the previous question of family life so we have two families one is your own immediate family that is wife's children father mother brother sister and second is your unit judgment company and when minimum 10 months after 12 we spend with that power so for a 4G for a soldier unit regimentation that is the family operations Sagar he gave a call to me because that had happened my minimum 20 years ago yeah and that is the way families and immediate family more than our sacrifice I think it is the wife and the children who sacrifice more wife is a single point pivot who brings up the family brings up the children looks after the parents look after siblings as also don't never tells you okay there issues at home problems [Music] wife would never call up to say so the wife of a soldier is the biggest strength of", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-47", "text": "wife of a soldier is the biggest strength of soldier and from the mother the children pick up this thing yeah never in my last 35 years of marriage have my children ever told me Papa we need this it will interfere with his thinking it will be on his mind he may not be able to do his job properly so this is another aspect of a Fuji's family now coming back to after retirement yes I have full time with the family here but I miss that family there yes I can well imagine and now I'm about Twitter very interesting in the same uh seminar in my next Center where I met ajith General Bhatia foreign military operations and my senior and I learned a lot from him a thorough gentleman a world-class professional military professional he asked me he said you're going to 15 core are you on Twitter I said no sir I don't know anything about Twitter he said you must be on Twitter and keep observing you get a lot of feedback and he also suggested the", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-48", "text": "get a lot of feedback and he also suggested the same pseudo handle he says Mega handle just observe people I'll tell you whomble to follow because the people who are you know into this opinion makers and you get a feedback anyway I went to 15 core I told some youngster I served Twitter account so this is so he made an account so he says I'm all these things I said write down kgs he said no sir you are not authorized to make a Twitter account foreign I said what is social media social media is perception management if has a 15 core Commander I cannot be sensible enough what to write on Twitter and what not to write how can I be sensible enough to carry out oppression the line of control over in the hinterland everyone is believing in me he will handle the line of control which is very active he will handle the hinterland in Kashmir which is again very active with great responsibility but he can't handle this Twitter handle responsibly so I came on the Twitter", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-49", "text": "this Twitter handle responsibly so I came on the Twitter in my name as 15 core Commander chinar core Commander and because when I do it people take notice and then okay it's like I I came to Srinagar uh a month before article 370. I was there a month before uh and while I didn't know the others uh and I had it was the first time I was meeting you but because I had seen your Twitter Avatar I knew that the question I will ask you you will not fudge a reply you will give me the reply see the blunt yes no or I cannot speak about it do you understand like what I mean to say is that I guess uh because as journalists Ajit you also know that you know when we ask questions of politicians but then with you and with the others who were there what we didn't know was that the abrogation is going to take place but all of us journalists but we knew something was in the offing but yes because of your Outreach I think many", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-50", "text": "but yes because of your Outreach I think many people know about you know of you uh so you tell me that you know when you speak to civilians now now that you're on the other side of the fence do you feel that the Bollywood uh you know picturization of what the Special Forces do uh and what what you know because there's so much of glorification of special forces in in America you know the seals and everything there's so much of that in Israel you hear us and you see but in India romantic it doesn't seem real to some of us absolutely soldiering is a serious business and you see some wonderful war movies made by the western movie makers the realism is true in our case the research work which is required does not go into I suppose as a result what do you see the siyosa singing songs and that doesn't happen in the real sense yes do sing songs but then there is okay but the type of you know because as a result they lose the plot", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-51", "text": "you know because as a result they lose the plot and okay trying to protect his daughter from everyone standing uh you know image in the Hindi movies yeah but he only hope and believe jensab you mentioned about you being called tiny I mean our viewers would love to know your six feet plus right how did how did that name come for you I remember I was commissioned in fourth Battalion the rajputana rifles that is for rajidev and foreign which was opposite to his personality that's sweet and then that was also the codeword used on the radio set while communicating on the wireless and other things so this name would remain with you even operationally and otherwise so since I was six feet three inches I was given the nickname of tiny there's another officer senior to me majora he's also six three he was called shorty okay and officer younger to me who is a left now who is the color of the regiment he's also six three he was named mini but some other mini thing", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-52", "text": "three he was named mini but some other mini thing didn't stick but because he was called Carrie okay and the most meticulous officer in my unit he was called Goofy so so these names are there which so the pakistanis or the enemy doesn't know who's coming yes I mean if they if they see you coming and saying yeah absolutely right and they probably thinking yeah after that right what is the life of a special forces officer I have worked with the practically every Special Forces battalion even as a captain I had a another Captain for Special Forces sit in my banker then as a major other CEO and they are a different breed firstly the most motivated highly qualified and IQ and thinking of course is everyone's because you come through SSB you come to the psychology test but they are motivated to the Core the first time when I went with the special forces of for an ambush for eight days we lied in a we are lying in an ambush in a lob and if we had", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-53", "text": "in an ambush in a lob and if we had to go for the morning I mean just in case our viewers or our listeners and very thick jungles and we went for an oppression and eight days we were in ambush it's not that you get up for the morning coil and walk 100 meters and then and come back and make all the noise on the leaves which have fallen you just take five side rolls do the thing and come back oh and you don't move you don't breathe you eat your food there only because if you move or if you you know breathe loudly you have to hear the silence the first time I heard this dialogue okay Captain God bless his soul he got uh you know lost his life in operation he says sir you have to listen to The Silence silence speaks and sure enough if you're just listening and when a terrorist is coming in the silence is broken so eight days you would just remember that was one of them otherwise we have gone", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-54", "text": "remember that was one of them otherwise we have gone for 14 days self-contained operations what is a self-contained self-contained you whatever you can carry on a back okay okay and you survive within that arms and the man George Bernard balance whether you carry chocolates you carry ammunition it's up to you what what is the kind of food that is given these days we have meals ready to eat it's something like what's available in the open market also you just boil it and there's a plow there's a Dal there's a halwa there's a t Russians olden days we used to carry shakar Paras even today my troops like rajputana rifles yards and rajputs they preferas because that would give away smoke and smoke and fire and smells I mean smells so smells so that is not done we generally eat whatever the weight is and some little pickle and generally we prefer to eat it next to a spring you eat you drink your water you wash your hands and the smell goes okay so you", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-55", "text": "your hands and the smell goes okay so you move to your next Ambush location so what is the mental preparation that goes into a special forces person like this who knows that he may not come back home it's a again I'll put it there it's a training and second is the buddy system the three things which are very important in any Soldier confidence in himself which comes from confidence in his body confidence in his commander and confidence in his weapon if out of these three people Commander weapon and his partner buddy if out of these three things people or things one is not up to it soldiers moral the confidence will go down I will be very scared to work with a person I'll be very scared to go into an oppression if I knock my weapon may not fire I'll be very scared to go into an oppression if I feel my commander is not you know intelligent enough or professional enough he can guide me into a certain death so three things confidence in your commander confidence in", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-56", "text": "death so three things confidence in your commander confidence in your weapon confidence in your body bring in the confidence in you well we have tremendous amount of confidence in you and in in our forces and uh you talked about Bollywood picturization okay you are very active on Twitter and everybody all of us have watched all these series of how the now that's on based on real operations the Israelis have been doing their real operations for many decades we have been doing it for more than 30 years now you think sir uh we can create our own type of for the series based on operations in Kashmir yes why not because point is our oppression the so transparent our patients are so professional our nation and International Community must know how we do it when we go into International seminars with the international defense personnel people walk up to Indian army officers and ask you as to how come you have you know sort of finished the Insurgency in the Northeast and you have curtailed this Insurgency so wonderfully in", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-57", "text": "have curtailed this Insurgency so wonderfully in Kashmir the terrorism so they walk up to you with wide open eyes yeah and we need to tell our stories today's world like we're doing this podcast it's basically telling what you feel if you don't tell someone how will he know what is your worth and the younger generation would never know to motivate the younger generation to tell the world of our transparency of operations we need to tell our stories and I think a very good idea and I hope ad GPI is listening and I hope the agnivirs uh are the ones you know I'm hoping that they are listening in into this podcast and jensaf we're going to have you back when your book hits the stands I'm looking forward to reading your book and uh even though you're saying there's a lot which you haven't said uh maybe one day we'll get to know that about that too definitely when the book comes out you will get a personal copy and uh I would love to have once again", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "5c3d8e9e3275-58", "text": "copy and uh I would love to have once again a discussion absolutely after you have gone through it and uh then you can ask more pointed questions absolutely thank you so much for coming here thanks a lot man thank you very much always a pleasure interacting with you thank you thank you thank you for listening in or watching Ani podcast with Smitha prakash please like And subscribe on whichever platforms you have listened to this on namaste [Music]", "source": "9aMAU7C_ymU"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-0", "text": "kovid is going to stay for years it is going to live as we are living it may change its character so from government point of view we have to have continuous server lengths in the whole over World it has to be surveilled for till it lasts it is going to last till human being is going to as we are invading into uh jungles invading into Forest new and new viruses are going to come new and new infections are going to come youngsters in the late 20s early 30s late 30s and so on who have had cardiovascular events it is something that can be attributed to both one is that for two or three years people were even scared to go out to the park for a brisk walk and then obviously long covet especially the Delta wave I have also been reading multiple studies that favor the long-term effects of covid on heart health now there's a trend okay I am going full body checkup Labs have got their you know some lab parameters yeah so full body check up", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-1", "text": "know some lab parameters yeah so full body check up even God cannot check your whole body if these type of full body checkup gives you pseudo confidence one thing that the nation needs to understand is that we are not superhumans and and it is not possible that you called us at 10 45 and if we didn't pick up then it doesn't mean we don't care about you it just means we might be sleeping welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash is the covet pandemic over are the covet vaccines and the boosters that we have taken are they going to keep us safe enough if we hit another wave what about children do they need boosters are the flu shots which they have to take this winter is that going to keep them safe from covet if at all there is another wave what about random tests that doctors seem to be prescribing these days are doctors losing their skill sets just because they have everything is based on a lab-based medical analysis and the therapy is also based on", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-2", "text": "lab-based medical analysis and the therapy is also based on these kind of tests which are done in Laboratories to answer these questions I spoke with Dr Arjun dang who runs one of the busiest diagnostic laboratories in New Delhi in the podcast is also Dr dhiren Gupta pediatrician senior consultant at the sir gangaram Hospital also in New Delhi thank you very much for speaking with us doctor uh Dr Gupta explained to me at what stage are we in the pandemic in the fight against pandemic uh because there there is talk that you know we might be heading for a fourth wave but then there are some who say that the pandemic is over so there's a little confusion so could you tell me where we are right now yeah uh I'll be explaining in the two ways one is a professional and second is for any human being I'm also human being at my wrong normal human being right Normal public this uh covet is going to stay for years like influenza it is going to", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-3", "text": "stay for years like influenza it is going to change the character it may come in other form what presently we are dealing with many patients might be suffering from covet but that kovid is not life-threatening that is like a mild influenza in very few of patients it is life-threatening it is affecting their life so that's why people are forgetting it now as a as a professional body if one out of 10 patients still they are suffering from covid right but we are not very much concerned like a patient it comes with influenza or with any virus like RSV virus they are in simple words they are suffering from some respiratory infection some small pneumonia or some asthma has got exaggerated because of that virus we just give symptomatic treatment no specific treatment is needed and when we talk about covid pandemic probably is likely to go in a say month or two month time so pandemic means in the whole world it is spreading so that status likely to", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-4", "text": "whole world it is spreading so that status likely to go but it is going to stay and it is going to live as we are living it may change its character unless a new virus comes with a sudden change in character with like we say antigenic shift major antigenic shift like which happened in influenza H1N1 came it came with new virus absolutely new and virulent virus which can affect some body part we are not worried we are not majorly concerned so from government point of view we have to have continuous server lens in whole over World it has to be surveilled for till it lasts it is going to last till human being is going to be oh really yes yes yes like influenza normally RNA virus or DNA virus and you have seen the smallpox also came in different way like a monkey pox so as we are in invading into jungles invading into Forest new and new viruses are going to come new and new infections are going to come so", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-5", "text": "come new and new infections are going to come so we don't know actually human science human doesn't know if you talk about kovid nobody knew about second wave when the second wave in the first after first wave everybody declared oh now we are code free we are clapping we are you know throwing uh Showers of Flowers and all that and suddenly second wave came now following that everybody you must have seen and A to Z person is speculating now another will become another we will come and it has to be true in some way so they will say okay we were truth because we were true because we speculated this way so probably the virus and nature is much more different what we much more faster in evolution than human being about uh you know that this um that covet is never really going to go away but you're a pediatrician so obviously my question to you will be that what about children uh because when the Delta wave came at that time uh you know when the casualty figures came out", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-6", "text": "uh you know when the casualty figures came out and then there was also this talk that children are not going to get as affected as adults but when Omicron came in in 2022 uh then we saw and then schools reopened so then the number of children affected uh were there now have they got the vaccines have has or have all children across the country got vaccines and what about boosters do children need boosters yeah now first question is regarding the Omicron how it affected the Pediatric age group when we talk about first waveform it didn't affect it directly as a virus viral viral pneumonia but how what happened after say four to six weeks some inflammatory syndrome in form of Mis appeared during first and second wave now came Micron right till Omicron came a pediatric age group was not vaccinated unfortunately what happened during Omicron or just before Omicron when we started vaccinated pediatric age group our vaccine was not Omicron preventive vaccine so it was", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-7", "text": "was not Omicron preventive vaccine so it was actually waste to vaccinate the Pediatric age group because Omicron was not preventable by those vaccines and the Pediatric age grew specially infants got direct infection in form of upper respiratory tract infection or severe is sort of you can say upper Airway obstructive lesions this pediatric pediatric patient presented with right so there was a difference between the first and second wave that was in form of misc that is multi-system inflammatory syndrome pediatric age group presented and following that in Omicron because of upper respect infection we have seen many infants Landing in hospitalization but there was no misc after a micron so it is little bit complicated for if I simplify the things that pediatric pneumonias were always never been major problem in whether it was Omicron or for second pneumonia it was post-infectious inflammatory syndrome during first two waves and direct upper respect infection in third wave that is Omicron and unfortunately none of the vaccine", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-8", "text": "is Omicron and unfortunately none of the vaccine even the present context none of the vaccine is preventive for Omicron that's why over the time you must have seen that yet only the children no I'm talking about in general so we don't know what is the vaccine status should we get vaccine in a new vaccine even if the new vaccine which is going to benefit Omicron should we get it done because Omicron is a milder one uh thank you for joining us Dr Dang uh everybody needed you in the city in in Delhi during the wave Delta wave especially uh tell me what has been your learning curve uh during you know this the alpha wave the Delta wave and now uh post that absolutely firstly it's a great privilege being here thank you for having me and I think the entire Paradigm of Diagnostics and especially the learnings that we've had have been Paramount throughout the pandemic and and I still remember that this was just before the Delta wave and uh just like a small", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-9", "text": "before the Delta wave and uh just like a small example are called volumes of patients calling into a customer care for collections or requests increased five-fold and this was a time when the entire healthcare industry was actually facing the problem of their staff also falling unwell with half the city already infected so I think the one lesson that we got is that you can be dependent on processes but not people and that is where actually Automation and Technology really actually made its way through the front door and I think that was for the positive as well because this was the time when at least the ivd industry or the Diagnostics industry and all of Healthcare in India also Embrace that technology to increase throughput and also serve the masses throughout the pandemic but apart from this also there have been immense learnings and and not only on how to overnight scale up especially during the Delta wave how to use innovative ways to collect more samples report more samples but but also have that process dependency and not be dependent on your people", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-10", "text": "that process dependency and not be dependent on your people because at that time our staff was themselves a lot of them were getting infected uh doctor you had these mobile testing centers that you know those Drive-In ones they must have shut down after uh right now my one question was that you invested so much in putting those up getting permits because it wasn't easy like absolutely to get those permits to set up those you had those couldn't those have continued I'm going to move away from covet because I've already spoken about covet um couldn't those have continued and you could have done like the other things the lifestyle disease uh checks which you know people don't do it right nobody goes to check whether they have diabetes or not whether they have high blood pressure these basic things are not checked and you know one is reading more and more that India is the diabetes capital of the world and things so these These are drive-through places should have continued so so uh yes so we had four initially out of which", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-11", "text": "uh yes so we had four initially out of which two are still functional and like you said both of these are currently being used for routine Wellness testing and what has actually happened over these months or years is that the patient's mindset or the consumer's mindset has become that they don't want to enter a big big Health Care institution or a hospital or a lab to get there sample done so a lot of people actually prefer just driving by in their car and getting their samples done from the car only so till date we still have two of these open in South Delhi only and one in West Delhi and where a lot of people make bookings and come in and at the end of the day for us it's the patient satisfaction and that feeling of safety that they get and being inside a car obviously reduces this exposure and maximizes safety for the patient just to be sitting in their own comfort in their safe Zone in the car and do all their tests and like talking about these", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-12", "text": "and do all their tests and like talking about these non-communicable diseases like diabetes hypertension Etc as well now what we have seen is that throughout the pandemic all of these have been on the back burner for a lot of people and obviously with that apprehension of not being able to or wanting to step out to a hospital or a healthcare space they've just ignored it even if you look at the incidence of cancers even the incidence of blood pressure autoimmune diseases diabetes hormonal diseases all these are really flaring up now because people have obviously ignored them past the 24 36 months of the pandemic yeah uh Doctors Hospital thousands of people come per week I'm sure you uh you cannot tell your patients like your hospital also right you have so many patients that you see uh this is a problem that that everybody is facing uh they don't want to go to the hospital after this fear of you know hospitals do you see that but you know whether as a pediatrician", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-13", "text": "see that but you know whether as a pediatrician physically so what is the solution then how do we deal with this issue of crowding in hospitals first issue as a doctor if you ask me this phone calling and taking advice I hate this one though I did a lot uh phone calling during Kobe time that was different we were dealing with just one disease standard parameters are standard problems we know what is happening in this patient right I did lot of adult kovid right in thousands not in hundreds per day I remember for three days I couldn't take bath during just because of kovid adult kovit calls right even though you're a pediatrician I started taking round in adult kovid Ward I used to be alone and nobody knew the treatment right even so I I got myself attached to the kovit from the beginning so disease evolved in front of me so with the help of a lot of my friends who do adult who were adult physician so I trained myself right one thing is that", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-14", "text": "so I trained myself right one thing is that second now we come to this uh electronic calling or you know online calls and all that as a patient you are going to be at major loss if you don't show your yourself physically and just take a call just taken a suggestion from a doctor write advice from a doctor not showing them physically and Googling doctor is that also that is that you know the answer right no no I need to know how is it what happens what happens uh first I'll talk about this online calls ninety percent of the things do settle when you talk to the page doctor or patient in front sitting in front of you look at the eyes and patient examination you touch the patient over the time people look at the MRI CT scan X-ray and they don't touch the patient they don't talk to the patient and that's why patient also feel dissatisfied so I always feel that this should not be done so if patient is in front of you you talk to them socially", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-15", "text": "is in front of you you talk to them socially you talk to them medically you take them proper history you write your notes and then you move ahead right then you can take another phone call that okay what has happened how are you and unless I don't see them once physically it's very dangerous for the patient to just have call and get the treatment get the investigation lab should come after they have consulted a doctor physically not just online that Kobe time is gone now yeah now the second question what you were asking last one the Googling that people are Googling the problem with the Google is like like like I diagnose the disease it said it's a temporary or it's not a I'm not sure it is just a speculation of a doctor that you are suffering some disease and you start googling in Google what they will catch 10 percent of the complicated disease process they will come as a first so you will be dead scare going through that and 90 percent disease is going to", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-16", "text": "going through that and 90 percent disease is going to be mild right so you are you are opening a dead pandara box a scary Pandora box for you as a normal human being as a population and then you become panicky and then you gain start uh you know window shopping for a doctor so you are going to spend unless a cc money you are going to produce anxiety and without any actual disease which has got some complication so you are suffering from the milder disease because of Google you have made it dedicated right so definitely you should avoid I am not talking about as a doctor myself I've seen a doctor prescribing some medication I Googled the medication and I found it dreaded side effect in the front and I did not took it then I went to the doctor I told him and I am consuming that same medication for past three years so when it can impact a doctor can you imagine a normal human normal population uh Dr Dang I'm going to ask somewhat", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-17", "text": "population uh Dr Dang I'm going to ask somewhat similar question an offshoot of what he has said you know this uh the connection between diagnosis and therapy and that doctor spending lesser and lesser time and maybe this is what patients say let me tell you I mean you may not agree with that but patients say that doctors spend lesser time with them I can understand when it is a rule setup when a doctor has you know literally dozens of patients to see in a day the the pressures are too much but then uh patients say that where doctors spent time with us touched as as Dr Gupta was saying touch the patient he needs to do that because he's a pediatrician but the Lesser and lesser time that doctors spend and more more dependence on labs and for tests right that that whole connection where the therapy is based on your tests which are done and lesser on on clinical examination clinical examination absolutely do you see that in your uh absolutely so a very interesting question and I", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-18", "text": "your uh absolutely so a very interesting question and I would say that there are both sides to the coin on in this and me being from a family of doctors I I saw my grandfather who was an MD physician and he was the doctor during the partition days he was an mbbs doctor but the amount of knowledge that he he had and the amount of skills of clinical General examination WhatsApp was talking about that he possessed probably in that time with no Diagnostics available was at another different level I've seen your dad while I'm sorry to interrupt you I've seen your dad while walking in lodhi Garden people would stop him and say kid doctor and you know this is what happens right I think doctors whenever you people go out even for dinners or whatever free May advice no I completely agree so so when uh my dadaji he was an mbbs but the amount of skills that he possessed without any dependence on any Radiology pathology etc those days in in the 1940s and 1950s so obviously", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-19", "text": "in in the 1940s and 1950s so obviously the skill levels were very high but I also feel that post that 1986 consumer act that was passed where anyone could literally go go to the court and say that okay there's this medical provider and that they they diagnose this without any documentation post that doctors have also started asking for a lot more tests to document the diagnosis and then have management based on that documentation so that has also increased the Diagnostics but at the same time I heard this terminology called hyposkelemia so our generation doctor is now are so dependent on just reports and Diagnostics and technology-based platforms to to actually advise the patient like so I was saying that they don't really give value to actually examining the patients has also happened but again the flip side is that I feel that's a very good thing as well because you're not firing in the dark you have your clinical skills you have your clinical examination at the same time you have the power of science to overcome everything", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-20", "text": "time you have the power of science to overcome everything else and then have pinpoint treatment based on the precise the diagnosis that you get right Dr Dang I agree with you and I think uh you know when we used to hear in the 80s that you know in America uh medical uh costs were so phenomenally high and insurance that doctors needed to take and that's why you know doctors moved from private practice into hospitals because you know if there is a medical legal case you're stuck you you don't have the insurance of that level to deal with it so that time we used to sing Chalo babre at least but doctor you were saying about your brother who's also a doctor and practicing abroad and uh do you do you see that now in India too that because of these medical legal cases and things like that do you feel that your generation of doctors also now has they have to practice from these big institutional or big players in the market who can protect you legally because you know if", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-21", "text": "market who can protect you legally because you know if there are cases against you it's hard to fight it uh you know Frankly Speaking if you ask him personally I am Bland of the old thoughts and the new investigatory approach right so unless you classically manage your patient clinically you should not get the test done especially in pediatric age groups are very sensitive they are like very innocent kids right right whether it's a family anxiety or whether it's a doctor anxiety am I missing something you are subjecting a innocent person for a test and next time he will be dead scare of the Medical Science so you are in you are actually imposing a scare that is going to stay a trauma in in a child who is very innocent so it's a double s food like as a doctor Dr Dang said yesterday there was very busy cleaning as I told you I take 10 feet from 15 minute per patient I don't in hurry whether it is going to take 8 PM 10 pm there", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-22", "text": "it is going to take 8 PM 10 pm there were lot of fights and two patients said that we are in hurry we have to leave something I told them that I cannot hurry up just because I want to see you early because problem is with me I am going to miss the diagnosis right and it is a loss of the patient it is never a loss of a doctor I'll feel bad so what I found another thing I want to add as I told you when you go to some marriage party people will come doctor is you tend to give some advice that advice is without examination without putting your brain and that is going to harm this patient why this casual advice you can say you are many miscarriage diagnosis secondly investigations if you something like a full body checkup now this is a trend okay I am going full body checkup Labs have got their you know some lab parameters yeah so full body checkup even God cannot check your whole body when he build your body there will", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-23", "text": "your whole body when he build your body there will be some fallacy there will be some deficiencies these type of full body checkup gives you pseudo confidence what happens you got your full body checkup just a biochemical there are millions of chemicals they are not just hundreds of chemical this lab is going to check there are millions of chemical so first of all you should get consult a doctor get him physically examine get your examine then you get your Labs so this is the problem there has to be blend between the clinical and laboratory only then I feel that we'll have best of the signs doctor we just talked about you know I just touched upon it which I want to come back to uh was about these uh tests for uh diabetes you know and I want to come to this thing about diabetes in children uh I have seen many instances where a parent said whether it is obesity or whether it is diabetes and then by the time the child hits 18 diabetes is already set in right is", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-24", "text": "child hits 18 diabetes is already set in right is it something thing that we need to do much more maybe at school level testing or what is it that how do we stop this uh issue so we know that India is you know there's a capital of diabetes World capital of diabetes and same I found that past three years either because of Lifestyle either because of covered antibodies either because of too much eating and sitting sedentary work the diabetes on rice and second disease is tuberculosis we it says again come it is the massive rise in tuberculosis casein I'm talking about Good families I am not talking about just uh you know exposed to Chulas and all that not just that no so these are the two diseases which I have got other than vitamin D deficiency autoimmune disease and so blah blah but I'm I'm talking about these three diseases vitamin D deficiency psychological diabetes and tuberculosis this is on Rice reason could be what I told you and what doxub has", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-25", "text": "be what I told you and what doxub has elaborated in and we not only need to test some way somehow [Music] so they copy you right so we need to check ourselves also and unfortunately most of the homework is on WhatsApp so they get excuses when we adult can just get distracted because of phone think about kids who have got immature mind yeah right so it gives you power but it takes part of concentration also the phone that is the major problem so what I feel that of course we should cache them as early especially at 8 10 years old child we should catch them and lifestyle diseases it is a totally preventable disease even if the family is full of diabetic you can delay it you can delay it and even if you are having diabetes you can have best of the lifestyle look at the vasi makram he's also diabetic look at how he plays how fit he is right yes so over the years probably awareness is very important Among Us and India why because all", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-26", "text": "is very important Among Us and India why because all mothers are you know pamper their kids like anything food is a substitute for everything food is the religion food is uh you you can say a way to pamper our guests Dr tank I want to come uh to ask you know to take it forward from where he was saying uh you know you're a young doctor lifestyle diseases as Dr Sab was saying is something that we are bringing it upon ourselves whether as parents whether as whatever you know professionals because we are hard-pressed for time do you think you see at least when I was in school the medical room that you had was only for injuries absolutely nothing more than that at least in my generation there were there were the teachers were only interested there was nothing beyond that like the school didn't look for that whole well-being concept is not there and my generation I think the the wrong things of eating the wrong lifestyle started from our school and college days nobody told us you know those kind", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-27", "text": "college days nobody told us you know those kind of things were not there what are you saying do you think that schools need to be more proactive when it comes to you know a healthy lifestyle right from you know preteen uh onwards what do you think absolutely I feel I feel that your younger days whatever is imbibed in you like you were saying stays with you for the rest of your life and in in your curriculum to have something that talks about healthy habits that talks about how to prevent diseases when you're older how to actually spread that awareness also among your fellow beings and classmates I think that's very important but also I think we have technology again favoring the youngsters like like I see you're wearing a wearable watch on your on your wrist that will actually measure your pulse and that will measure your glucose and that will measure your heartbeat and your various things so I'll tell you yes it came to me only when after I had a very severe attack let me", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-28", "text": "when after I had a very severe attack let me be honest with you it came when I had a very severe attack of covid with uh during the Delta wave and it was then that I was told okay you know you get to I've never checked so so exactly so I'll tell you a small story about an NBA player in the US and I recently read it and there was this person who was wearing an Apple Watch and he was playing basketball and he had an arrhythmia rhythmia is something like an irregular heartbeat and he's one of the most fit athletes but he still felt it but his watch actually showed a notification that please see a cardiologist so he went to the cardiologist just listened to this the cardiologist diagnosed him with something that we call as hypertrophic cardiomyopathy this is a disease that happens most commonly in athletes post their diagnosis they did a genetic test for three of his brothers out of which two also had hypertrophic cardiomyopathy they", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-29", "text": "of which two also had hypertrophic cardiomyopathy they didn't know yeah so they took the preventive steps the treatment and now he's perfectly fine so this is how something as small as an Apple Watch on our wrist or any of these watches that we have can can give a notification that can ultimate Italy actually save lives multiple lives mind you so this is again something that the youngsters have inculcated obviously like doxa was saying obviously there are more phones than WhatsApp but then this the Silver Lining to that dark cloud is that yes from your younger days only if you are more proactive about these different health conditions I think it can go a long way yeah Dr it's up this is very important I think specially with younger children you know those who are smart enough to understand to know that something is happening to them like you know I know of a friend whose son is a is a teenager and uh at some point of time he called up his mother who is who's also a", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-30", "text": "he called up his mother who is who's also a physician mind you and he called her up at the workplace and said that I think I need to be taken to the hospital so she said what happened saying I haven't told you but I have been taking this x drug for uh for Sleep which I didn't tell you but I have taken this and I think I have overdo post now you know while we were talking earlier uh doctor about you know Googling and the negatives but this child could figure out that what he has done is he could figure out that he has taken the route so you know he was taken and there was a stomach wash and everything was cleared but sometimes technology can affect do you I think it is it has to be Bland of both both right and regarding technology it has become so easy to get and so easy to be used by people like I do respiratory I take care of respiratory diseases in pediatric patients and allergic diseases but I", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-31", "text": "in pediatric patients and allergic diseases but I have found that now everything is portable if I want to do uh regarding this something known as adenoidal hypertrophy that is tonsil and that can lead to decrease in oxygen deficiency in the night and parents won't come to know that your child is actually suffering from this disease no yogurt pulse oximeter in every home correct you just apply your pulse oximeter to a patient to a child who is having some nasal problem some snoring problem or some sleep restlessness in the night and you will be able to diagnose oh my child is suffering from actually a major problem which is not very much evident in the daytime so I mean to say this type of Technologies are available and every each this kovid has taught us that technology has got its own uses and and people and kids are very smart means I have got two kids one is in IIT roorkee he's just entering he's very smart he knows that how to take care of his", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-32", "text": "smart he knows that how to take care of his health and what type of diet should be I should be using and and more than the parents you know if family says parents says it won't affect them but the social media especially peer group pressure that I've got good physics you what you have so probably that has that takes them to different level which we cannot imagine so there is positive there is negative but the problem is of the immature mind of say 10 year 80 year old child that is a pro that is the population which is very immature right but they take negative out of the positives so if you're talking about young adults your son uh and you know that they are aware but Dr Dang even I mean I would ask both of you you know uh young adults suddenly getting these heart attacks and dying in a gym dying at work uh everybody's saying that there seems to be something uh inexplicable is this like long covet what is happening why so many young people who show", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-33", "text": "is happening why so many young people who show no signs of ailment suddenly just dropping dead so it is indeed tragic and shocking also and there have been youngsters in the late 20s early 30s late 30s and so on who have had cardiovascular events and I think it it is something that can be attributed to both one is that for two or three years people were even scared to go out to the park for a brisk walk so their exercise their gym their games everything actually reduced drastically so that would be one and then obviously long covet especially the Delta wave and pose that when we got a lot of people that had prolonged symptoms for over over three to six months I think that has something to do with do with it I have also been reading multiple studies that favor the long-term effects of kovid on heart health and it can probably be because of both that's what do you agree Dr Gupta and uh what is the solution because as a parent you are you know", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-34", "text": "the solution because as a parent you are you know your son is an IIT you say so the pressures must be so much on him uh in addition to you know his his uh course that he's doing this also like you said peer pressure everybody wants to look good it's a it's the Instagram age so everybody wants to be fit look good there is that pressure and then you also I'm sure you know you have pre-teens who are your patients so this this whole thing how much of vitamins are people pumping in and all these supplements this is a very dangerous Trend I mean it's good in a way that they are aware that they need to be healthy but this vitamin pumping all this is how is it how detrimental is it one terminology is overdoing overdoing is harmful right one should know one should recognize their own body on capability strength and weaknesses right and something like as the parents you always feel that the you know right height right and so family and pediatric when they", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-35", "text": "right height right and so family and pediatric when they look at the social media I should look like this they should know they have got some strength and some weaknesses if we overdo the things right then you'll end up in problem so why it is happening because of social media everybody comes to know that 40 year man 27 year old man is a popular I died because of exercise and gyming now that is the undue pressure over that guy he he tried to become uh try to match some other person but he forgets his own capabilities strength and weakness right so that is the problem so you try for 20 30 years you were just a sedentary person suddenly because of social pressure you start looking okay 22 kilometers but if you are forgetting he has got different genetic makeup I put different genetic makers right my capability for 30 years I was just a sedentary worker all of a suddenly so this uh this is going to happen so that will help so one should know their limits so it", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-36", "text": "will help so one should know their limits so it should not try to match some other person and one last point I want to add genetic is something that is poured in in the Medical Science and money diseases in many patients who have got some death unknown death in the family they should counsel the genetic genitist and they will get you the idea okay you can get sequencing genomic sequencing or something so so that we can predict that you have also got some problem which can lead to sudden death like cuties and from some problem in the ECG some problem in the heart which is not apparent but can become apparent if you are exercising if your stress in the stress so probably we should consult a doctor if something has happened in your family like a young person has died and that will help you in future Dr Dang then who should one go to like if as Dr Gupta said that you know you're feeling you're feeling this uh that so and so has uh your cousin or", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-37", "text": "that so and so has uh your cousin or your sibling or somebody has passed away due to a heart related issue you need to go to your GP how do you get to know that it's a genetic disorder or whatever so a genetic disorder essentially can either be lifestyle related like doxa was saying cvd that's a cardiovascular disease or it can also be what is actually more known to science today is an oncology ailment that someone's had in the family especially if if someone's had a breast cancer or there's a male who's had a colon cancer then obviously our oncologist will guide you in a lifestyle disease your physician will guide you you to go go to a suitable person a person who can tell you exactly about the diagnosis earlier and what test is required for you also there is precision medicine now that is very interesting and as per the makeup of your genes the medication that you are being given will be suitable to that like what Dr Gupta was", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-38", "text": "be suitable to that like what Dr Gupta was saying now even for diseases like obviously for cancer Etc it is very personalized the treatment depending on the the signature of the cancer and your genes but also apart from that you have even medication for diabetes even other autoimmune disorders where it's actually tailor-made so that it suits you well so this realm of science is called pharmacogenomics so again there is this is this huge area that that is being we are waiting to leverage it so that we can get the maximum benefits from it Dr your hospital where you work the there are thousands of people who come uh every week and you you know literally dozens of patients that you need to see but in spite of telemedicine in spite of us having so many hospitals and all we still have a shortage of doctors in this country we still have patients who have to come in from Villages camp in cities and you know one had thought that things will change but it's still uh", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-39", "text": "had thought that things will change but it's still uh there it's still that Primary Health Care facilities are there in our Villages but when it comes to you know having these these complicated tests as you were mentioning uh Dr Dang we still need to come to cities the major metros actually the problem is with the primary health what is happening we don't have good infrastructure in The Villages like many of my colleagues I'm 53 so many of my friends now I have settled in Australia Villages they opt to settle in the village you ask your child you ask your you know growing child who is in medical science tell them that go and serve in the village nobody will agree yeah right there is some problem what is a problem you don't have good infrastructure in the village nobody wants to go there now unless we have got very strength and Primary Care will require tertiary case like our Hospital actually if you look at Sri Lanka now they are in a problem due to different reason but", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-40", "text": "they are in a problem due to different reason but they have got very good Primary Care at primary lab level if you are able to tackle the situation with preventive medicine is always better than it cure better than the Cure you cannot cure most of the disease like even if you are having genetic disease if you have a genetic predisposition for cardiovascular disease but if your lifestyle is perfect right from the infancy then probably despite of predisposition you may not have symptomatology later on right so preventive medication is unfortunately lacking in India at all except few vaccination right so we need to have we need to have good infrastructure in the at the Village level and good infrastructure not MediCal infrastructure I am talking about in general infrastructure wherein person can live suitable life uh Dr Deng corporates are entering into uh you know into the whole Hospital scene and into the diagnostic scene does that mean that this problem which Dr Gupta was talking about where you know in villages", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-41", "text": "was talking about where you know in villages we don't have Primary Health Care Center do you think that once corporates come in and they're given incentives to set up these uh Primary Health Care Centers and diagnostic Centers do you think things will improve with that absolutely I think more than this being a destination about strengthening time Primary Health Care it's for our country it's going to be a journey and I think a very vital step in that journey is going to be the larger players like these corporate Hospital chains actually penetrating this tier two tier three cities in small smaller areas where there is a dearth of these Primary Healthcare facilities now also what's very important apart from setting up a brick and mortar kind of a structure where there is a suitable doctor and a healthcare staff is also awareness initiatives now also in in rural areas in villages that are simple thing things like pap smears for cervical cancer for ladies and other simple tests like a PSA test for", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-42", "text": "and other simple tests like a PSA test for an elderly male like what uh what Dr Gupta was saying that prevention so that at least instead of this entire system or ecosystem where it's all about sick care we actually flip it and make it more about preventive care or well care like we call it so that we have minimum people who are actually falling sick so yes awareness education like what you were talking about and also penetration into these rural areas by these bigger corporate chains who can provide that brick and mortar and a doctor I think are all a part of the picture okay Dr Gupta I want to ask you about this what is tomato flu there was this whole panic situation one is the Tomato flu and the other one was monkey pox has it come in is it coming was it right uh the Panic that was setting in actually you know um media and people are more aware if some negative news gets in or some catchy name like tomato like monkey right here so", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-43", "text": "catchy name like tomato like monkey right here so monkey actually monkeypox right or monkeys start with the 15 monkeys um all right uh Dr Ryan we've spoken so much about patients about children everybody now I have to ask you about the health care of doctors you know uh you read in the paper sometimes that doctors are under severe pressure and uh some have even committed suicide you know because now tell me uh what is it about you know doctors falling ill like this having mental pressure that they can't cope can't doctors see for it I mean it's a very basic question that a doctor should be able to tell you know that he's or she is slipping into some kind of a depressive State and needs help do doctors hesitate in seeking help or hesitate in accepting that there might be something wrong so very pertinent question and I'm glad we are getting a chance to discuss this but I'll divide it into two parts one is through your mbbs and your mdn residency days now obviously", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-44", "text": "mbbs and your mdn residency days now obviously during this time especially or mbbs and your md the curriculum is so robust and so stressful along with the classes that you have to attend I think that that pressure of the exams like you have your board exams Etc this is probably probably multi-fold and there's so much at stake especially like again what Dr Gupta was saying about that peer pressure that everyone wants to do well so I think it is more of actually inculcating that mental health chapter in all mbbs and uh and and medical students so that they can actually understand what is mental health and also have that uh that service that if someone wants to reach out to someone they should have that accessibility so that they can get counseling they can get therapy and so on and so forth and I I really feel that is lacking in the current Indian medical institutes that we have you must have done your PG after several years after Dr Gupta is done uh did you have that kind", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-45", "text": "Gupta is done uh did you have that kind of in your Medical College was there anybody reaching out no nothing we had our fixed academicians our teachers professors batchmates Etc but I I don't call any anything being so accessible like the way I feel that it should be with all these strategies that these uh tragedies that we are hearing also now coming to the flip side now um even with practicing doctors I think one one thing that the nation needs to understand is that we are not super humans and and it is not possible that you called us at 10 45 and if we didn't pick up then it doesn't mean we don't care about you it just means we might be sleeping or it means that we might be in the middle of dinner or something important so I think it's it's also that expectation that where especially in a country like India like abroad have a lot of friends in the US in the UK and five post five PM they are off for work but here I think", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-46", "text": "PM they are off for work but here I think it's also the immense amount of passion that we work with that even if it if it's 8 30 and if you're sitting with your own family and someone calls you your family also wants you to pick up because a one minute call that you have with them it's probably gonna put them at ease and help them out the entire night or maybe a day so I think that empathy and that passion together is what fuels our fire but I think that will eventually take a toll on it yeah and I think accessibility to the right therapist or somewhere where you can be heard I think it's critical again and obviously a very important work-life balance is something also that all doctors should maintain having Hobbies or playing a sport I know easier said than done but that is the need of the hour Dr Gupta I'm sure there is no work-life balance that you have you as a pediatrician I'm sure you need to be available or you", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-47", "text": "I'm sure you need to be available or you are available to your patients I will say that I'll spoiled my whole life if I talk if I try to follow and I didn't follow even one person one percent of that and I have paid for that the right and and all life not lifestyle lot of problems but what I would like to see like right from the mbbs and first of all I totally agree with him totally agree with him and just I want to add extra that's 60 percent of curriculum should be removed from medical science like for a mbbs doctor why I need to find out what is happening in the cell on under the microscope when I am not going to chase a histopathology as my curriculum right hmm so these type of unnecessarily unnecessary burden over a brain brain is a brain right right it has got limitation we should try not to over test it so in India already we are over populated so for one seat there are 25 000 candidates yes over and above you are", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-48", "text": "are 25 000 candidates yes over and above you are giving unnecessarily which are not going to unnecessary curriculum it's 60 percent if it's just rubbish 30 percent is scanning history just you want to carry the Legacy but doesn't burden the things by giving the medical history as a 30 of the curriculum secondly there are something super Specialists need to know why you are talking why you are telling the ambious person to cram up the things which doesn't have practical implication for at least next 10 years for him so my feeling is that many of the things because my other son is doing mbbs he is in final year he is he's a very mature guy he's you know I've found that he's much much more mature when I was if I compare myself when you were studying when I was in final year but almost 60 percent is the curriculum should be removed immediately right the professor should now should come in the actually in the public domain and should try to reduce their uh the burden", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-49", "text": "domain and should try to reduce their uh the burden of the whole society Medical Society Dr Dang you were saying about how you know uh in America or in the UK or in in any of these Western countries patients don't call up the doctors in the middle of the night and all I'm sure both of you get calls and I mean we are all guilty of doing it I wouldn't say just you know the random people are even I have I'm guilty that I could I could have waited till next morning to call up my doctor but I need to know now okay you know and especially I think uh Dr Sab I will say to you because in India at least are always available 24 hours I'll ask you Dr sub and then I'll come to you uh Dr Dang yeah I should know okay when I should seek a doctor in a clinic second when I should seek a medical facility so in an emergency suppose pediatricians 24 hours 365 days I totally agree because you need medical facility but you should", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-50", "text": "totally agree because you need medical facility but you should go to a hospital an emergency foreign foreign foreign 48 hours and then drive several hours away get that covered negative and then suppose your flight got delayed and I was like you know boasting so much like you just need to go didn't you feel at that time a sense of Pride that at least we had those facilities at that stage no I think I completely agree with you I think the healthcare ecosystem in India is should be praised more especially when when you look at the availability and affordability and also the accessibility to a doctor I would say Obviously rural areas and I'm not talking about year three four but at least the major academic problem no but yeah absolutely but now if you compare say a big city like a London for example to a Delhi or a Bombay you will see a striking difference now the cost of the same test there is about 10 to 15 times of a simple blood test the same blood test that you'll do in", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-51", "text": "blood test the same blood test that you'll do in Delhi versus what you'll do there I can vote that if you get it done from a good lab in Delhi I would say that is more reliable like if you were to just tell me in say dollar terms because we've got viewers listeners who live abroad like in dollar terms one test here and one test in say the US okay so so this was uh this was basically a few months back and I I had a friend who went and got a covet antibody test done there and they wanted a fisa vaccine so there I think it cost them some 800 US dollars for the same test that happens here for a thousand rupees 1000 1500 rupees so yeah so yeah exactly so you're doing do not even compare this exactly so yeah but there's also a point that all almost all testing there is Insurance driven and here it's out of pocket so is this going to happen here to do you see because I am seeing like", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-52", "text": "here to do you see because I am seeing like we were talking about this whole thing about you know you have to get tests done these days and then there is the whole malpractice thing do you think it's going to happen here too where tests could become so phenomenally expensive or because of corporates coming in will be will it become cheaper what is going on so I think I think that's a mystery that we we have to we have to wait and watch but but I do feel that uh with this uh entire industry having that picture of lucrativeness because of which you have your Pharma players you have your uh corporate hospitals you you have a lot of these e-commerce players now entering Diagnostics I think eventually in in a few months or a year or two the bubbles going to burst now what the the masses also need to understand that the same test now everyone experienced that with the rtpcr you have the same little card kit that you use at home that's the antigen", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-53", "text": "kit that you use at home that's the antigen test that is not at all as reliable as the gold standard that's the rtpcr and that's a fraction of cost of the RT PCR but in the end the report will say covet negative and positive so that's same test can be done in dozens of different ways at different quality benchmarks so obviously that is something that the end consumer of the patient will also eventually understand Dr just before we conclude I have to ask you Dr sub uh uh [Music] do we have to give kids flu shots do we have to give Elders flu shots and because the symptoms you know of flu and covid are so similar so flu shortly yes yes yes flu and it is a preventable disease and especially high risk cases your innate immunity and it should it will help I would last comment on what he said there are two things quality and quantity India is just Indians and India economy is based on quantity not quality unfortunately what is going to happen like you", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-54", "text": "quality unfortunately what is going to happen like you get in CT scan for the chest is carries huge radiation it should be of the best of the center with the best of the quality but if you get that CT scan of very low quality though it cost by even if cost doesn't matter but instead of ruling out the disease quality is so so bad that you cannot get another CT scan and the patient will land up in major problem because you were you were dealing with a poor quality investigation and the purpose of that investigation was not served so again what he said that too many too many investigations given as a package just to lure the patient rather than focusing on high quality Limited Test right is going to backfire very soon okay and it is backfiring many of the patients foreign possible for this whole set of questions that I have for you regarding what we need to do you know during the Winter's uh you know when we when we are heading towards this period thank you very much thank you", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "323bbab2a15e-55", "text": "heading towards this period thank you very much thank you thank you for having us thank you thank you for having me thank you for listening in to a i podcast with Smitha prakash like or subscribe in whichever platform you listen to this in namaste thank you [Music]", "source": "vN8xWECXKiY"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-0", "text": "first myth I want busted is that pollution affects only lungs it's wrong pollution affects every part of the body from brain to toe pollution starts impacting us even before we are born today a child born in a polluted city becomes a smoker from the first breath of his life next 20 years India is going to see an epidemic of lung cancer air purifiers masks etc etc are knee-jerk reactions smog Towers whoever is proposing them they've been put up with Fanfare in the city of Delhi they are a huge waste colossal waste of public money letting this human right clean air be the election issue for 2020. you are watching or listening to a i podcast with Smitha prakash today we have with us Dr arvind Kumar chairman of the Institute of Chess surgery chest onco surgery and lung transplantation at medanta hospital and founding and managing Trustee of the lanke foundation now I spoke to him about a whole host of issues which include uh you know", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-1", "text": "a whole host of issues which include uh you know children and the elderly suffering from lung Related Disorders because of pollution now you know the the frightening thing is that when you are looking at the statistics the data which is there doctors say that 80 percent of most Lung Care patients that they are seeing today are non-smokers they they used to be smokers in the 80s but now they're non-smokers so what they saw as pink lungs of babies uh in the 80s and in the 90s also now kids as soon as they start as soon as they take the first breath of air especially in North India they become smokers so by the time they are in their 20s they are like heavy duty smokers and they have those what used to be known as smokers lungs simply because they are breathing what happens do lawmakers not know about the situation that we are in we as parents as as young adults we are all concerned about our children about our parents uh how do we", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-2", "text": "about our children about our parents uh how do we protect them and protect ourselves and some of us who've had covet we have already got compromised lungs now so we whether we were smokers or whether we were fit and energetic we are all suffering from lung Related Disorders and if we do not sort it out we are looking at an epidemic in a few years time a cancer epidemic in India these are questions that we discussed in our conversation each one of us is is affected whichever part of India you are living in we are all affected and even if you aren't living in India if you have relatives and friends who are living in India they are also vulnerable today so listen in to my conversation with Dr arvind Kumar thank you very much for speaking with us Dr arvind Kumar um the first question I have is you know uh when I was as a parent as as someone who has an aging parent in-laws you just tend to worry about air pollution and the effect it", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-3", "text": "to worry about air pollution and the effect it has on vulnerable groups you know if you have a parent who has diabetes or if you have diabetes or you have children with lung Related Disorders like asthma the pollution in North India thanks to or no thanks to this paraly burning and things it's become so chronic the past couple of years you at least I feel that you know like when I go for a seminar or conference you're continuously hearing people coughing in the audience if it's not India you go and address anybody abroad or you address anybody in Northeast India or in uh in South India that issue is not there but North India it's like everybody is having some kind of you know this chest congestion cough and related issues as a doctor you tell me how do we handle this Smitha first of all thank you very much for having me on this podcast it's indeed an honor for me to be doing this podcast with you thank you sir coming to pollution", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-4", "text": "podcast with you thank you sir coming to pollution issue it's a very very important issue not just for the present generation but more importantly and sadly an aspect not adequately highlighted it's a vital issue for our next Generation Now why do I say that I say that because when we breathe in 24 hours we breathe 25 000 times in the process inhaling about one ten thousand liters of air every day and when you have toxins present in this air they go into our lungs from the lungs they get absorbed into the blood and through the blood they go to every part of the body from head to toe so first myth that I would like to burst through this podcast is that pollution affects only lungs right no big no lungs are the portal of entry for the pollutants into the body but once into the body they affect every organ so that's myth number one busted because of the blood uh yes so so when they go to the lungs and especially these smaller particles", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-5", "text": "go to the lungs and especially these smaller particles and the gases they reach up to the periphery so the same site from where the oxygen absorption takes place these toxins also find their way into the blood okay and they come to the heart and then they get circulated across the body so somebody who may not have asthma or any lung related disorder but has a heart issue is also a victim of of pollution now because that polluted blood is coming to the heart and the heart not being strong enough to pump fresh blood or good blood or whatever cannot get rid of the toxins right am I simplifying that you're simplifying it I'll come to this point so the first myth I want busted is that pollution affects only lungs it's wrong pollution affects every part of the body from brain to toe that's one two most of the people feel that pollution affects adults because we are on the roads and outside more often and therefore it affects the sad and I will repeat", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-6", "text": "therefore it affects the sad and I will repeat this word s-a-d sad the sad part of the story is pollution starts impacting us even before we are born oh there is data available now that if a pregnant mother breeds polluted air the pollutants from her blood cross the placental barrier and go to the child whose under development in her uterus and starts affecting that child if it's first trimester it affects development of organs and thereafter growth so from congenital malformations to intrauterine growth retardation to premature delivery to death inside the uterus all these are being reported recorded with higher incidence in polluted cities in pregnant women than in non-polluted city so it's not just cities right because uh yes in cities we have when I when I say cities I mean areas let me correct myself not cities because it's not a city specific problem this problem now is becoming as rampant in The Villages the causes may be different but it impacts people in villages as well", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-7", "text": "different but it impacts people in villages as well because of a coal burning or using food as so there the cause is a use of solid fuel inside the households so when the lady will cook the food on a Chula inside a room big room the smoke fills up the room and people who are sitting in that room who are usually the elderly people of the house and the little children who are sitting near the Chula they inhale and it has been shown that the particulate matter levels may be as high as 25 to 30 000 per meter a millimeter cube in these smokers because uh traditionally The Way Homes were constructed in India there was no concept of open kitchens or ventilation in the kitchen so even in a large house you know like if you go to Villages the uh the larger homes they don't have they don't have crossed ventilation they don't even have some of them don't even have ventilation as such just a door so there's no not even a window and usually what", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-8", "text": "so there's no not even a window and usually what happens is that the wood is placed outside the room in some cases in South India the wood is outside the room and there is like a passage like thing and then there's a Chula and the smoke goes out but in some cases when you don't have that facility of having the wood outside then the wood is inside you know the and it's cooked inside so more houses will have wood kept inside the room the chulha also inside the room the cooking is done there it may or may not have a window and usually the smoke fills up that room the little children are sitting next to the Chula the elderly people are sitting in the room so everybody is subjected everybody in the house from the children to the lady to the elderly people everybody smokes and this is one of the commonest causes of pollution related morbidity and mortality in our rural area so I have spoken to some people when you know when we go out for", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-9", "text": "some people when you know when we go out for coverages when we when I was doing a story on this ujjwala yojana and you know so there is a resistance to using uh you know uh non um you know coal and wood uh in cooking is this is a question it's the same way that you know when the swachh Bharat story I was doing people don't want the toilet inside the house so there is these are cultural resistance to it but there is a need for awakening right there is just like at one point of time in the 70s uh Family Planning uh program was undertaken on this massive thing even the immunization schedule by and large people know that you need to have small families by and large people know that but this has still not percolated yes so there are two reasons for this one is this what you rightly said was that the elderly person in the house will say guess he's used to having that Chula of Allah Roti and he cannot do without", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-10", "text": "Chula of Allah Roti and he cannot do without it so he insists on the Tula being used even though the cylinder may be lying in the house so that's one cultural taboo which we are trying hard to break by making lot of videos in various Regional languages and sending them out to actually the gas Distributors who can then share them with the people trying to tell them that in the process of having that swadwala Roti you're actually playing with the lives of your children the housewife and the elderly people so that's one second reason is economic that and the first cylinder free of cost but thereafter they had to get the chulha the cylinder refilled by paying some amount when they get wood from the jungle it usually comes free of course so there again they think that it makes economic sense to use wood rather than Chula and I as Doctor am trying to tell them that it does not make economic sense because when the people in the house fall sick because of this smoke it costs", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-11", "text": "house fall sick because of this smoke it costs them much more the treatment part than what they have saved in the cost of the cylinder so again it's an issue about awareness I think this supply has been done what we need to do is to create massive awareness that chulha is the way to go it makes economic sense it makes cultural sense and because also makes a gastronomic sense to make food on the Chula rather than the on on the gas burner rather than the Chula doctor since you uh you know you're an expert and you you deal with chest and lung disorders uh and transplants too Everybody Knows by now that tobacco plays a large role in this but off late I've been reading that uh it's not you know those who come with lung cancer and stuff it's not just tobacco it's it's more than the than that it's like it's not smokers lungs anymore lung cancer uh has so allow me to share my 30 years uh experience as a lung cancer", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-12", "text": "share my 30 years uh experience as a lung cancer surgeon I started my career at all India Institute in 1988. when I look at my initial data 90 of my lung cancer patients were smokers mostly men and people in 50s and 60s this you're talking in the 80s late 80s and early 1990s I looked at my last 10 years data recently and I was horrified to find that now 50 percent of the patients are so-called non-smokers and I'll give you the reason why I'm using the word so-called non-smokers 40 percent of the patients today are women non-smokers from non-smoking families and the peak age from 50s and 60s has come down to 40s and I have 10 percent of patients in 30s and my youngest patient was a 24 year old girl from a non-smoking family now this is now why is this happening this is the what who director General has called second tobacco epidemic so if you look at the chemical composition of the tobacco smoke and the", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-13", "text": "the chemical composition of the tobacco smoke and the polluted air you find that a large number of cancer causing chemicals are actually common in both so whatever is present in tobacco smoke can causes cancer is also present in polluted air and therefore is causing cancer the reason why we are seeing all this earlier is that earlier people used to get exposed to pollution when they would go out so typically around late teens early twenties their exposure to pollution used to start or they used to start smoking at this age we know that you need exposure to cancer causing agents for about 20-25 years before the tissues become cancerous so you start smoking at 2025 at 25 by 50 you are ready to get lung cancer today a child born in a polluted city becomes a smoker from the first breath of his life and again I'll explain why I'm saying that suppose India today so a child born there is in August of 2022 or September of 2022 is a smoker", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-14", "text": "of 2022 or September of 2022 is a smoker by October so no not by October from the very days breath of his life if in October the PM 2.5 level in Delhi is 300 micrograms per cubic meter in terms of equivalence to smoking there is a conversion formula 22 micrograms of PM 2.5 is equal to one cigarette so if you have 220 microgram level it's equal to 10 cigarettes so a child born in Delhi on the day when the 24 RPM 2.5 is 220 plus will smoke and get damage equal to 10 cigarettes on the day one of his or her life so you cannot prevent you cannot what do you do as a parent so when you start smoking from the first breath of your life by the time you are 25 years old you've actually smoked for 25 years and you're ready to get lung cancer that's why I'm seeing lung cancer in non-smokers in girls and in people in 20s and 30s and I dare say it on your podcast that", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-15", "text": "and I dare say it on your podcast that next 20 years India is going to see an epidemic of lung cancer and we are already tending to see that because our medical fraternity our policy makers everybody is aware but nobody will do any medical fraternity is aware medical fraternity is making noise about it we formed a group called doctors for clean air where across the country we are trying to share this information with schools resident welfare associations politicians bureaucrats and everybody trying to make them so we have a triple A approach so we make them aware when they are aware they will be awakened to the danger and when they are awakened we expect that they will take some actions no but this is something which is not new right this has been happening so at least for about at least 10 years as far as I what is new is that till few years back pollution was considered an environmental and a chemical issue talked about by environmentalists talked about by uh chemists and other people", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-16", "text": "talked about by uh chemists and other people researchers as a chemical kind of an issue truly it's not that it's a health issue and presenting it to the masses as a health issue is something which I think has started only in the last five years so people usually think that debts at in large numbers happen because of communicable diseases but what you are saying is that it's going to be a non-communicable disease the dent is being caused by pollution related illnesses today is more than HIV AIDS tuberculosis malaria Dengue and this kovid combined okay that's quite frightening the the reality is that we should have a clause in every death certificate in the in every hospital did pollution contribute to this death and I'm pretty sure that in 90 plus deaths across the country today you would find that pollution would have had some role to play but as I said it's causing brain attacks so let's start let's start looking at the impacts it has so in children as I said", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-17", "text": "the impacts it has so in children as I said in the intrauterine life it causes congenital defects it causes growth retardation death inside when the child is not make uh sorry to interrupt doctor but can you make a direct correlation for example just just a Layman's way of uh asking you that uh somebody a child can uh can uh probably have an attention uh deficit kind of a thing is that related I'm coming to that yeah so there have been studies across the world there are people who've spent their whole lives researching these issues what I'm talking is not my conjecture I'm also I'm talking of the hard data which is available which I have read so when I say it impacts the the children the the growing fetus in the uterus there is real data available when the child is born they have in the immediate postpartum period they have bronchiolitis so which is the equivalent of asthma in children all the time we are saying that these days children are becoming", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-18", "text": "we are saying that these days children are becoming very naughty they are very hyper active right that actually is inflammation of the brain now it is known that these pollutants go to the brain and they cause neural inflammation which initially manifests itself as hyper uh Active Child or attention deficit disorder and later on it has been shown to reduce the IQ levels also so these children may not attain their ideal IQ levels because of exposure come to lungs it causes bronchiolitis this causes asthma it's one of the commonest causes of pneumonia deaths in under five children in the country it causes numerous cancers as you grow it causes COPD and now the most dreaded lung cancer come to Heart COPD is a chronic obstructive disease in which your lungs becomes swollen up with air and you're not able to get oxygen so smoking what used to be a cause but now pollution exposure is emerging as the major cause come to Heart system uh many children in schools", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-19", "text": "cause come to Heart system uh many children in schools these days are being discovered to have premature hypertension you know people in teens that's that again is related to pollution it's been shown time and again that whenever there are peaks of pollution a week or 10 days later all hospitals in those areas report much higher levels of people presenting with heart attacks so it's known to predispose to heart attacks and contribute to heart attacks it's known to predispose to brain attacks so lung is affected heart is affected blood vessels are affected brain is affected and reproductive organs again it is being presented as one of the cause for decreased libido and decreased sexual performance come to two new additions where very sad and very frightening recently we did a study of over thousand school children in Delhi and compared them with equal number of children in Mysore and Kottayam which are two less polluted cities we found 29 incidents of asthma in Delhi children we found 38 incidence of overweight", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-20", "text": "in Delhi children we found 38 incidence of overweight or obesity in Delhi children compared to other two cities and there was a correlation between obesity and Asthma how so the theory is that pollution is causing obesity obesity predisposes you to asthma and pollution also causes asthma directly so it's a double whammy which pollution is causing it's causing asthma directly it's causing higher incidence of obesity which is then contributing to asthma and latest now there is evidence emerging that even diabetes the rising incidence of diabetes in India may have something to do with pollution because the pollutants are getting deposited in the pancreas and in the peripheral tissue predisposing people to diabetes obesity diabetes hypertension heart disease heart attack brain attack brainless development heightless development the list is endless endless now I'm sure when when you say these things at your awareness meeting everybody is aware of it at least to some extent but the point is policy makers should know right those who", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-21", "text": "the point is policy makers should know right those who are planning this country's growth trajectory for the next 20 years we're talking about Amrit Khal and things about where where India is going to be in the next 20 years 25 years 50 years where will we be if if we have an endemic of cancer uh sorry an epidemic of cancer in our country we are 1.3 billion uh now in 2022. if we have millions of people with cancer how do we deal with this issue do our policy makers not realize the enormity of this because see a lot of pollution related things can be handled like I when I went to uh uh when we our teams are going to Punjab every time covering this thing you talk to any chief minister your uh anybody has handling Health agriculture Vehicles stop the vehicular pollution why do you go to the farmer you are anti-farmer if you talk to the vehicle manufacturers your anti industry how do we deal with this crisis so my experience I have had", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-22", "text": "deal with this crisis so my experience I have had occasions to interact with all these segments of people from decision makers politicians bureaucrats journalists school children principals Civil Society police people because we've been addressing everyone body we've even gone to parliamentarians we had a meeting with parliamentarians I gave them a picture of a normal pink lung and a lung of a non-smoker delhiite where there were a lot of black black deposits and they showed it in the parliament also all that has happened so these people are aware when you say they all agree as something needs to be done but the thing is that somehow that awareness is not converting into the immediate and massive actions which need to be taken the urgency of situation somehow has not dawned on them what is this it's a medical emergency if we don't set it right today we are endangering the lives of our children for me it's a medical emergency everything else can stop we need to go and fix this problem that", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-23", "text": "stop we need to go and fix this problem that kind of an emergency or urgency and a desire to take instant action with instant end results that's not there if we take actions which are likely to give their results in 1520 time a whole generation would have suffered morbidity mortality because of this problem doc so what is the solution it can't be one solution right it's not mask Peno it's not in you know give you inoculation no it's not that no so priorities have to be set right first rule is that anyone who says that I'll let pollution happen and then take measures to clean the polluted ear he does not know even the basics or ABCD so smog Towers whoever is proposing them they've been put up with Fanfare in the city of Delhi they are a huge waste colossal waste of public money no country in the world has solved its air pollution Problem by putting smoked offers so this is a farce total farce colossal waste of precious public money", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-24", "text": "total farce colossal waste of precious public money that's number one number two it's a public problem air purifiers masks etc etc are knee-jerk reactions personal solutions to what is basically a public problem we've done it with electricity when electricity was not there instead of fixing we went for inverters and generators that was the first time we sought a private solution to a public problem second time we did it with water when the supply was not good we started carrying our private bottles unfortunately there is an attempt to do the same with air also people don't realize you can be without water for five days you can be without electricity for n number of days you can't be without air for more than two minutes and you cannot carry your own air I'm sitting in your studio I'm breathing the air can I bring my air curtain from my house and say oh I'm safe with this air curtain no so the solution lie is in cleaning the air across the country and not putting these", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-25", "text": "the air across the country and not putting these wastage of smoke Towers which are all social so this is the first realization which has to come solution lies in addressing the sources that's number one sources are many so vehicles are a big source unfortunately is given a huge amount of attention but I would like to clarify that it's something which happens a certain part of the ear contributes a certain quota during this part and if you take totality of the picture its contribution to a total is actually a much smaller segment than the attention that is given to it so a lot of pollution is coming from vehicles huge amount of pollution is coming from coal fired power plants okay they are the biggest problem they need to have devices fixed to reduce the emissions from them and this was something which Ministry of environment took it up on its own Co Moto about five years back and fixed very rigid norms for all of them to implement in a certain time frame which was a beautiful welcome step unfortunately", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-26", "text": "time frame which was a beautiful welcome step unfortunately since then that deadline has been deferred three times and now stands deferred to 2025. for reasons which I need not spell out here okay where are these located mostly across the country across the country right so if so electric vehicles are a wonderful welcome step but mind you electric vehicle needs electricity to charge it right and if that electricity is from a coal plant from a coal plant you are addressing the problem only half of it hmm so we have to address it in totality people have to understand it people have to cooperate also it's not that you can only blame the government it is a problem caused by everybody and it is a problem which will be solved by the participation of everybody but who will do it making rules alone is not the answer you know Supreme Court passed the order about cracker burning two years back I was also involved in in that course I used to go for the hearings and all but people violated that there", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-27", "text": "the hearings and all but people violated that there were people who made videos and showed that look it's past 10 o'clock I'm burning cracker do what you can what are you trying to prove Supreme Court is not passing its order for its sake its passing order for everybody's sake so that awareness in public has to come that it's for your own benefit it's like government imposing helmet and seat belt for your sake on you it's for your benefit minister is not getting benefited if you wear a seat belt government those who make these policies they also are breathing the same air absolutely so you would think that they'd be more aware and they will make sure that these coal plants Implement those laws which they have passed but what what can I do as a parent what can I do as I feel that there has to be a Citizens movement to promise movement across the country next election should be fought on the issue of Clean Air uh I would like this opportunity to take this opportunity", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-28", "text": "I would like this opportunity to take this opportunity to inform United Nations has declared clean air as a human right it happened just about six weeks back so we can say am I human rights my human right this human right clean air be the election issue for 2024. I know it sounds very radical those who will listen and sing human rights but you know it is true stuff that we think is not imperative it is if it is survival as you are saying and Survivor I mean each one of us first things of our children right as a that's the first thing that you think is your parent and your child most of us would do that and if we can't ensure survival of our parents or of our children then this is talking of progress progress everybody wants to be successful entrepreneur CEO blah blah blah I'd like to tell everybody that the first requirement for achieving any of these is a healthy body and if your body is unhealthy if you have host of problems from brain to toe", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-29", "text": "if you have host of problems from brain to toe you cannot achieve success doctor what about covid most most of us who've had covid uh we are battling with this long covet issue breathlessness if I could climb uh you know four or five flights of stairs without without even forget about gasping without even Breathing heavily I could do that now I can't even do two without gasping without taking a pause and this is like it it doesn't seem to go even after an hour after a year so there were three types of people from covet one who had very very very severe lung involvement and went to ICU and probably did not survive there was a group which had negligible or no lung involvement who returned to normalcy after their kovid episode and there was a group in between which had lung involvement which was not severe enough to take them to the ICU but was severe enough to compromise the lung function to some extent now this group is the one which is actually", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-30", "text": "extent now this group is the one which is actually complaining of reduced exercise ability reduced exercise tolerance earlier they could climb five flights of stairs now they get breathless on the second floor itself so these people when we are doing CT scans are showing some amount of fibrosis in the lungs which is the long term effect of the lung involvement there are some medicines being tried but till date there is no medicine which has been proved to be definitely effective but what is definitely proved to be beneficial is graduated increasing exercises breathing exercises and you know the other cardio exercises which tend to restore the elasticity of the lung and the lung function to normal levels but it's but I must teach you a bonding here that there are cases where people have gone for massive exercises suddenly and there have been fatalities also so when you go back to your exercise regime it should be very very slow gradually increase give your body time to adjust you know body has suffered damage", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-31", "text": "time to adjust you know body has suffered damage don't impose massive exercise from day one it can cause catastrophe as it has in numerous cases across the country so slowly increasing maybe first day you just exercise for five minutes let it go for two weeks then make it seven minutes then two weeks then make it nine minutes as your body gets used to but with exercise you can actually get back a lot of your original function second is there is a huge amount of anxiety which people are having and I see lot of such cases in my OPD lot of them are I.T professionals they read a lot on the internet and because of that they develop more symptoms than they actually ought to be having going by their lung standards and all we need to do is to calm them down things are okay just have patience do some pranayama do some relaxation exercises and surprisingly they start feeling much better doctor also the reason is uh for example a fit person uh got covered right and so mentally to", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-32", "text": "fit person uh got covered right and so mentally to to accept that you may not be able to work out as much or you may not be able to do and to slow down in today's day and age slowing down if you tell somebody to slow down is like telling that person die you know do you understand everybody is on this on a like a conveyor belt so the first thing that is needed is not to be on the conveyor belt right slowing down does not mean that you will not reach your destination you'll probably reach your destination you just need to pause recover your health after that you will be able to run fast enough to reach there do you get a lot of patients who tell you uh in the past like since you've been practicing medicine since the late 80s do you get that a lot today that the anxiety levels have increased so much that it's impacting on physiological many many many fold increase in the anxiety levels and I'm telling you that these post covet syndrome of", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-33", "text": "telling you that these post covet syndrome of course it's there long covet post covet syndrome whatever term you want to eat it's there but the magnitude that is being talked about has a lot to do with the anxiety that has been created around it oh yeah even I'm so lot of people come to me they say I can't do this I can't do that and I take them with me I say let's climb stairs and I start talking to them and we climb four flights upstairs then suddenly yeah so you realize that it was actually anxiety which was preventing them I'm not saying everything is anxiety show all I'm saying is that anxiety is also playing a huge role and we need to control that do you see that in children or just one thing I'll add sure what I have noticed is that you know kovid and all those lockdowns and ICU stays they actually Disturbed our 24 hour schedule and as it is there are a lot of people who work till 2 am", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-34", "text": "are a lot of people who work till 2 am 3 AM 4 AM then sleep till 11 o'clock there is something called body cycle if we just restore the body cycle so 10 pm to 6 a.m was what the body is used to sleeping if you keep the body awake during that time and you try to sleep during you're going against the physiology of the body so I tell these people make a fixed time that okay by this time I'll go to sleep I'll get up at this time do a little bit of exercise do a little bit of meditation whichever form of meditation you wish to calm down your body and then make yourself busy in some productive work and pay attention to work when you get busy with work suddenly you forget that you were ill so people are not working they're saying no no no I need to get fit because I have a lot of work to do so that anxiety of doing lot of work is actually preventing them from getting fit and when they come to me all I", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-35", "text": "getting fit and when they come to me all I do is to talk talk talk talk to them and talk them out of it and most of them actually come out of it okay the the you were talking about the body uh needing that sleep from 10 o'clock to six o'clock you said or minimum five to six hours is what an adult needs but into more than duration quality is important if yes disturb what is happening thing people are doing less and less of physical activity and more and more of mental activity when you go to bed at 11 o'clock if you have 100 calculations going on in your mind where am I going to get that Emi and you know all those things so much of pressure obviously you won't get sleep and medicines are not the solution because medicines give you artificial sleep which just gives you some sleep hours but not sleep relaxation so when you get up in the morning you feel groggy you feel tired and your output goes down which further complicates the problem I", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-36", "text": "goes down which further complicates the problem I I mean I of course I can't say that my job is more high stress than yours you're saving lives but you talk to anybody doctor everybody says that oh the stress level is so much he sleeps only four hours and that's why he's the CEO and you know people are actually with great pride they say we need only four hours of sleep so four or five or six can vary from people to people I know so many Doctor friends of mine who sleep four hours but then they sleep well and they get that REM sleep during which you have actually relaxed so I would say around six hours is what an adult needs it's not necessary so four are six hours is Jesus just numbers put by people if you sleep for six hours and do not get adequate relaxation somebody sleeps for four hours and gets adequate relaxation he's in a better position so quality of sleep is more important than the duration so uh you know migraines are a major issue especially", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-37", "text": "uh you know migraines are a major issue especially for women and uh of course women whenever uh you know they say they siddhar Dora and nobody used to believe it right and I remember people used to say yes hysterical right hysterical was a word yeah hysterical used right and they used to say but it's only like you said it's that deep sleep is something which was not there right it's only when the smart watches came that's that you get to know something I use the word sleep ours you know when we sleep say around 11 o'clock so early morning between 4 to 5 30 or 6 is the time when we get what is called REM sleep it's called rapid eye movement sleep which is the deepest form of sleep which needs to leads to maximum relaxation yeah so when you get that proper quality of sleep yeah you get up Absolutely Fresh but when you are working you know the whole night yeah and then during the day time when actually the body is prepared to be awake because of the", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-38", "text": "the body is prepared to be awake because of the hormones are such that they are prepared to be awake and you are trying to put them it's like a a vehicle which is in fourth gear and you're trying to put brakes so you have an internal battle going on and that's what damages the body so does this lack of sleep also impact on on other things like lockups no lack of sleep first thing leads to very high anxiety levels you have all the time you are anxious your attention span goes down that leads to a decrease in work output and you get into a trap vicious cycle where one thing leads to the other and all you need to do is to just bring yourself out give your body that much needed good quality sleep relaxation let the stress go out and think things start improving so now nowadays I mean I not nowadays probably for a couple of years I mean earlier it was like yoga meditation curl switch off curl then there are these apps which come in which", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-39", "text": "curl then there are these apps which come in which help you like um you know uh water flowing app or you don't subscribe I'm a huge believer in natural things okay if I look at ancient India and I look at Western countries of the last 30 40 years in Ancient India there was peace there was Tranquility there was health and if you look at the Western countries last 30 40 years depression stress anxiety heart disease hypertension diabetes you know all these problems are there and I feel that all these problems are man-made because of their running away from natural things and relying more and more and more on artificial things and these apps are the latest addition to that huge area of artificial things instead of water flowing app if you just go and sit near a fountain or you know just just relax yourself you don't need an app the biggest thing is you need to understand that everything is good and we need to control our Ambitions also it's good to be ambitious but it's not good to", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-40", "text": "good to be ambitious but it's not good to be over over ambitious to the level that it start hurting you thereby preventing you from achieving that you've been working hard to achieve it becomes counterproductive I'm going to hand you over to our health reporter who who is I'm sure she has a lot of anxiety because she got stuck in traffic right so Charlie we've discussed already about various lung related issues and what the governments should do what parents should do but nothing much that we can do to save ourselves unless we create awareness and become like a pressure group I think that's what Dr sah was saying that we need to make our policy makers aware that you know this is something which we are going to have an epidemic of you know of cancer in a few years time if we don't resolve this and we make sure that the laws which currently exist they are implemented that implementation so this is what we discussed so far and of course uh anxiety sleep long covered these are", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-41", "text": "and of course uh anxiety sleep long covered these are points but if you have anything else that you would like to ask yeah sir I just wanted to know the implication especially if we talk about the covet and if we do link between the Children's Health and covet because their lungs are already very much compromised and pollution is also there how it is affecting because lot of cases are coming so covid impacted lungs will be more vulnerable to the impacts of air pollution because it's already a diseased lung so disease lung subjected to same toxin will fare much worse than a normal healthy lung subjected to same toxin so whether it is children or adults if they have covid impacted lungs where some fibrosis or other problems have taken place these people definitely will be more prone to the ill effects of air pollution than other people so we have one more issue with the pregnant women also before that like what you were saying when you know basically it's gone unless that secondary infection", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-42", "text": "you know basically it's gone unless that secondary infection kind of a thing doesn't start you don't go to a doctor most people don't want to go to doctors firstly and then you go to a doctor how does one know that oh okay I need to go to a doctor for preventing further issues from happening so I think the first indication that there is something wrong with the lung comes from your feeling that your exercise ability is going down so if you used to climb to say third floor without a difficulty now if you start getting breathless that's the first indication which will come to you that something is going wrong or cough may be there so the symptoms include decreasing exercise ability cough chest pain feeling of congestion in the chest and you become very prone to secondary infections and start getting them with higher frequency than you used to get in the past so these are four or five uh indicators I think if you if you notice that your kid is not going out to play sitting with", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-43", "text": "your kid is not going out to play sitting with a device more mostly people think they want to play with the device but it could also be that he or she doesn't like playing outside because they don't have to get breathless yes you should watch them that if they avoid running they don't want to do those exercises or play those things where they have to make physical activity and they are tending to sit more and more you should immediately get him checked the schools do screening or something like that that's you know whereby you get so the numbers may be so small that actually if you do a mass level screening it may not be helpful but if you select out those who have some suggestive symptoms and do screening in that focused population I think that will be more cost effective and maybe in the rural areas the Primary Health Care Centers can take over this project of screening people and then we will at least have some kind of data so that governments can act you know unless they have that data", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-44", "text": "can act you know unless they have that data and they know that it's so enormous uh the the problem is so enormous they may not do it yes they should be done especially ma'am if I talk about you know the pregnancy also during pregnancy also the air pollution has lot of implications yes we discussed it in detail that pregnancy is actually one of the most so there are three vulnerable groups the pregnant women the growing children and the elderly people pregnant women because the fetus gets affected growing children because their tissues are growing from brain to toe every tissue is growing and when the growing tissue is is attacked by these toxins the growth potential of all organs is impacted and the various organs may not grow to their Optimum potential one and two May develop n number of diseases the elderly have a reduced immunity because of their Advanced age their organs are old they may be having many other comorbid conditions and if they are subjected to pollution they have", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-45", "text": "and if they are subjected to pollution they have much higher morbidity mortality than the so these are the three vulnerable segments of society so as well as children like you if I talk about autistic chill children they can't express much they are also suffering one of their studies so they will be suffering as much as the other children will be suffering only thing is they can't express as the other children come so there suffering level will not be higher but they may not be able to express and therefore they may get more impact because they are not able to express the problem and also people with coma existing comorbidities like your diabetes hypertension because of pollution is what we discussed so obesity and diabetes these are two latest additions to the list of problems caused by air pollution and unfortunately both are impacting children so the increasing incidence of obesity in children and increasing incidents of diabetes being discovered in children is somewhere or the other linked to their exposure to air", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-46", "text": "or the other linked to their exposure to air pollution I think what my suggestion even though you wouldn't take it maybe but what you should take it back to your medical fraternity is that you should do this free for cost screening in the Parliament and in every state assemblies so that they get to know that they are victims unless they don't know that so first thing that I have requested a lot of doctors through their associations is to put a kind of a placard big black card outside their clinics in India breathing kills in India breathing not smoking but breathing breathing skills if you just put this black card outside it will start a conversation you know immediately we are alive because we are breathing what do you mean breathing kills so it will start a conversation and somewhere when you tell them what give them more information it will hit them thank you so much for coming it's uh it's I know you know it's going to shock many people but that shock treatment is necessary I feel", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "46d8282a8b56-47", "text": "people but that shock treatment is necessary I feel unless we are shocked into doing something we just don't there is so much of you know everybody is a Lagarde when it comes to taking proactive measures and unless they know that their lives are at stake and their children's lives are at stake nobody will do anything so my last sentence will be to convey a message that air pollution is not an environmental or a chemical issue air pollution is a very very serious health issue which is going to impact us more importantly it's going to damage our next Generation it's a health emergency that India is faced with and unless all the people start working together along with the government to rectify this problem this problem will persist thank you very much for speaking thank you thank you sir thank you for listening into Ani podcast with Smitha prakash like or subscribe in any platform that you have seen or listened to it namaste foreign [Music]", "source": "uEFsXpXA8Qs"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-0", "text": "now as far as the absolute incident which you are speaking about which is the moment of the arrest you have seen about it you've seen it on television I'm sure but you've seen perhaps one percent of it that's a period of my life I have not spoken about in detail pushing me with the butt of their weapons hitting me in the crotch yeah physically assaulting me thrashing me through the way right not even letting me wear my shoes locking me up in the loo of a jail doing things which are unbelievable if I did not compromise in 2011 when the entire Congress Government tried to put pressure on me when I was the editor of times you know then why would I compromise now this was physical and I podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is controversy's favorite child arnab goswami joining me in this podcast is my colleague ishan prakash who began his career 12 years ago in Tribune and then under arnab goswami in times now Arnav thank you very", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-1", "text": "goswami in times now Arnav thank you very much for coming to our studio uh it feels a little odd me asking you the questions you are the one who's always asking questions but uh you know when we started this podcast it was everybody's first comment on the on YouTube and on on all the other channels is when you're getting outnam when you're getting on remember even when I was starting it I was like okay so now you are this journalist who I have not seen anybody having such a huge fan following at the same time there is so much of Envy hate jealousy and adoration how does that rest on your shoulders it's not resting I don't know I don't say I've been away for too long from lutein's Deli so I left this city um 2004. it's been 18 years it's a long time you know so when I come back I come back like today you know once a month once in two months I hear these things here because when I'm in Mumbai I don't", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-2", "text": "things here because when I'm in Mumbai I don't hear anything I'm literally in my Newsroom so the conversation does not happen where I am so it doesn't affect me and where I am it's home and Studio home and studio so I don't have much time to think about all these things these are the things I hear about when I come here but you do know you do know that you know you I mean wherever you go there are like so many people who come around you asking for selfies and then you are like in social media also hero worshiped as well as like that you're the man who broke the news there's been a lot of conversation there's been a lot of conversation when it first happened when when around 20078 you know when the conversation sort of began to increase around around may not where I was working for it was a new thing but 2009 10 sort of it it settled and then I realized that I don't I don't need to think much about the conversation I need", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-3", "text": "don't need to think much about the conversation I need to do my job so I do my job and yeah that's it there's not much to think about so uh let me start from the beginning did you did you ever think you know a young lad in guwahati growing up and then after that contourment life and then Delhi University you even written about it about your life in Delhi University and do you think that you know you would reach the Pinnacle of television news in India no way no no way I never thought I'd reached the Pinnacle of anything it was more about you know doing well enough I guess you know being above average and then plodding along floating along you know these things are accidental this is what you call success is ephemeral accidental occasional and one shouldn't take it too seriously because then you begin to have what I call an exaggerated sense of self-importance you know you believe you are born for success I have no such pretentions so I think it's okay", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-4", "text": "have no such pretentions so I think it's okay I have never planned anything I didn't even plan to be a journalist it's just one thing leads to the other and you sort of move along you do the best when I first met you 27 28 years ago you know you and your wife both of you whenever young journalists you know starting out in life and things even then I didn't even in my wildest dreams I didn't think you were one of those ambitious ones you know you you're kind of like going through life both of you getting your uh you know uh understanding what TV journalism was you joined star NDTV thought that yahi paid like other journalists in NDTV 25 26 years no I never thought of nickel it is that you know I have always I have always just been the kind who sort of has moved from one thing to the other uh I did want to learn how to run a TV channel because I I thought how complicated is it really you know what goes into it so I", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-5", "text": "it really you know what goes into it so I was a keen Observer I used to observe how things go beyond what I do I was interested in the bigger picture so I wasn't very taken with my byline I wasn't very taken with my PS2 camera so I was interested in the big picture so I'm always eager to understand how the how the operations run how the organization runs how the back end runs and and that is what I actually learned a lot and when I when I picked up a lot but nothing extraordinary Smitha you know there is no narrative to my story it is just that you know I came into Delhi after my after my college I came back to Delhi I did my job stayed here nine years left went to Bombay in the 18 years that's it no yeah I wanted to see this humility now I mean it is can you give us a timeline of just your career how it began my time yes because you know there are a lot of people who just know", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-6", "text": "know there are a lot of people who just know you in this iteration or that way and how you moved into television how you took a leadership role in television you know if you can just expand on the background no no I'm getting it and you know Smitha is getting it wrong she's thinking I'm trying to be unnecessarily humble I'm just trying to figure out if there is a narrative of the kind she's trying to seek there is one will come to that we'll come we'll start no she was asking me is there a is there a was there a great grand plan or was there as you call it a grand strategy no I don't think yeah so what I'm doing there wasn't I mean there wasn't much good things happen sometimes bad things happen and you go along with it and sometimes you are also in the right place at the right time it's a function of all of that so you you're telling me about the chronology yes chronology is simple see uh my I'll take you even", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-7", "text": "is simple see uh my I'll take you even further beyond my father was in the Army he's uh he's from he was from The Madras suppers and so I grew up in various cantonments non-contournaments change seven schools finally I was in Delhi in Mount Saint Mary's did my CSC did my cbse from Kendra vidyalaya jabalpur came back here did three years in Hindu College stayed in North Campus two years in the hostel got lucky got a scholarship went to Oxford did a masters in social anthropology came back 94. and didn't quite figure what one needs to do realized that I was not I didn't have the qualifications for academic job for a full-time academic job so I had options of doing a PhD I had I I was in that track to do a PhD but that would require me to commit five six years so I thought I'd be I'd be in my late 20s by the time I finished I opted out of that kept it on hold came back came", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-8", "text": "out of that kept it on hold came back came to Delhi couldn't find the right job met swapan dasgupta in Express with chandan Mitra and Hindustan times you know uh very helpful way you had an inkling that journalism is your calling no it was the only thing I thought I could do okay you know I mean it's the I wasn't qualified for anything else at that time I had I had a postgraduate degree in some in Social anthropology okay you know so the there wasn't any there was a there's no career track to be very crucial degree yeah so I didn't have a track yeah so yeah so I mean then I thought that okay we'll try out in journalism print journalism was the only thing right couldn't get the right job in Delhi I hung around here for two to three months went around almost to all the offices got through some places God but didn't get the break so they got to went to Calcutta I remember swapantha's Gupta told me sitting", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-9", "text": "I remember swapantha's Gupta told me sitting in the Express office he was Deputy editor he said you won't get the right break here you go there and chandan Mitra told me that son you uh what have you just studied I said I've studied social anthropology so he said you you write a piece for me uh op-ed or editorial piece on uh your interpretation of caste which was at that point of time a big issue in politics so I wrote a piece he I remember him telling me he's very academic because I had I had that was your background it was my background so if someone told me about cast I would think about Louis dumo uh French structural Theory my whole interpretive understanding of Castro's academic and as a young person you are what you are you've come straight from the campus so then he said that with all of this you go to a telegraph because he said you'll get a job I got a job in Telegraph I was put in the editorial page and", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-10", "text": "Telegraph I was put in the editorial page and so I hung around there for about a year a little under a year yeah then I came back yeah I started looking for opportunities here the one option was to go back into Academia that has always been my life story you know go back to Academia but again I came back here I got a couple of jobs and uh um what date are we looking at right now 90 93 I think no 94 95 by now it's 95 and I got a job same day in two places one one was Outlook Outlook where I met padmananja I didn't get to meet vinoda I met padmananja it was a virtual offer not a hand like a not a letter I got but he said I'll give you an offer and then I met upper Menon at NDTV oh okay and somehow I liked open a lot he was very nice yeah you know so I was not sure I didn't know Delhi much so I felt very I found him very warm and he took", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-11", "text": "felt very I found him very warm and he took a great interest in me so I met him I met Bruno and radhika I think very briefly here and you were on beach journalism immediately yeah yeah I mean I didn't even know what I was doing I remember I no no no nothing I remember I I was taken to do you know as assistant some reporters to go and see how stories happened yeah yeah I did that but could you tell that TV was going to be the future was what was that conversation being had because Zee TV had entered ETV had entered you know the market in the mid to early late 90s at that NDTV was already established there archduck was also there and the TV was in English and it was already established by then I occasionally felt that the stories have impact occasionally television occasionally so I found the occasion when the story is at impact but the stories were not aimed at having any impact the stories were aimed at completing is it 24 minutes on a", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-12", "text": "aimed at completing is it 24 minutes on a bulletin right there was no passion there was no heart it was structure so you know what I mean run down you know it was a standard rundown yeah so I wasn't if you ask me was I very thrilled at what I was doing I wasn't but I like the chase you know I like meeting people I like going to party offices I like meeting people I liked having chats um and you re-imagine news when you went two times now the entire model that you created did not exist at all there were several channels then already and when you did times now you we saw a different kind of News Bulletin a News Bulletin not seen so far on any Hindi or English Channel so what what did you want to do I mean here was this the anchor who was a participant in everything you changed uh actually if you look back Smita at the last my last nine months at NDTV was a time when I was first given my own show it", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-13", "text": "time when I was first given my own show it was called news night it was at 8 30. and that show if you if you check with anyone in that time because viewership I think it started getting measured somewhere but it had a compelling audience because what I did was I just did a debate and there was no debate there was this easy kind of consensus we all like each other let's meet tomorrow how what do you think what do I think this is rather fake and artificial attempt at uh putting People Like Us in a studio and then having a chat um I have come from an academic world so I find that that the fakeness of it the fake intellectual pretensions I I I'm not very fond of them uh so I taken a break to go back to Cambridge after I was at Oxford I spent time I I wrote a book by 2003 when NDTV started I got a show otherwise I would have quit by then but uh that showed it exceptionally well because because I", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-14", "text": "uh that showed it exceptionally well because because I realized that there needs to be conflict for any conversation to be true and ideas generation and what no there needs to be there needs to be different perspectives yeah and the perspectives need not coalesce into something there needs to be a diversity of opinion and we must not be afraid of that you know it's just like when I was in school I was a very very good debater and I always found debating far more exciting than elocution and I found if you ask me what I what I really did to television I turned a constant elocution competition into a debate that's what I did but those last nine months on news night was was very exciting for me because because uh Smitha I would I would get the guess I would I would write the script I would uh I would think it through I would think of the structure of the debate I would think of the four or five five points of the debate because you see Smita I am", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-15", "text": "of the debate because you see Smita I am a professional debater I have been one of the best Debaters in school in college that's all I do well I do nothing else will my academic degrees are just now I don't know as well so the point is I turned that I turned my passion into a subject yeah but again after those the sheer process of launching times now uh raising investment four times now building a channel from scratch construction stage onwards recruiting it was thrilling from a organizational learning point of view but I didn't quite start off with the debate for the debate to come into times now it needed an Ambiance and that Ambience happened somewhere around 2007 2008 when there were subjects which came up accidentally as I say in the course of the debate in the course of the news coverage which provoked one to think so actually what happened was that the between the launch between my leaving NDTV in 2004 my launching times now in 2006 January and the format of the", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-16", "text": "times now in 2006 January and the format of the debate appearing in its incipient form somewhere in 2007. there was a period of Allah because I was I was too caught up in building an organization or rather say founding an organization and breaking news you I I know that you caused everybody you caused A disruption in the business in a way because we all were suddenly competing with each other like you said you know this this consensus period was over it was like time is not going to break it time zone report is going to be there so other channels were like okay I mean there was this understanding which is we'll do the news you know that the the big news will come in around that time but you were like you had put your reporters everywhere that aggressive brand of Journalism is what you brought in and you were fighting in your Newsroom why so-and-so got this thing first you know like the other the rumors of him fighting are true he's been I mean excuse me wait", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-17", "text": "are true he's been I mean excuse me wait wait okay so if I can say that when you want it you know ishan to get an experience of a newsroom why did you send him to me so exactly because when my reporters were coming back and when I asked them who was who are we being beaten by like for a news agency I want to know which channel is beating eni when I know that my news is being beaten by somebody else then that means that that person deserves my respect or that channel deserves my respect so you guys were beating us nobody else was beating us at that stage right it's not the it's not the packaging or the way you're speaking it or the way you're presenting it that matters for me it was who's beating and what is this model so when I said if there's somebody who's beating me I need to know that that is that is the kind of Journalism that is going to be our next step forward yeah so I thought", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-18", "text": "to be our next step forward yeah so I thought that ishan will learn a lot and we will learn a lot and I think we learned uh you know what you needed from a news agency what you were doing with your competitors and how you were beating I think phenomenally you changed because I saw other channels replicating what you were doing in times now see we are sitting here and watching what all channels are doing and I saw that happening with what you were doing I don't know whether you were seeing that no I'll tell you there's another dimension to it and uh having observed the way news is done in Delhi for about a decade a little short of a decade I realized that what was missing in the news was the heart and I want to just explain this a little in detail to you in in Delhi news the way I saw it I'm talking late 90s early 2000s was the quest of four or five things Smitha one political relevance political and bureaucratic", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-19", "text": "Smitha one political relevance political and bureaucratic relevance that was the high point that journalists and editors really worked for second some kind of patronage some kind of political and bureaucratic patronage that is something which journalists really sought and delighted in it is the be-all and end-all of your life you know third and I'll tell you disproportionate wealth corruption in media circles was rampant up to a point where it became embarrassing to watch people used to boast about it oh I've got this Farmhouse here I've got this Farmhouse there there's no known source of income uh every several people bureau chief um upwards the designation was a pretense as was their salary so I saw deep rot corruption uh and no commitment to society and most importantly no commitment to the nation absolutely zero commitment to the country it became a form of individual aggrandizement and I saw it up close I'm not naming people but anybody watching this knows who I'm talking about and", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-20", "text": "watching this knows who I'm talking about and Smita I despised it so I think it was necessary to give this media reality check and I think what I seriously gave them have given them and continue to give them and will give them in the future is a reality check of how the people in this country really think what media they want what media they deserve the form of media that will serve the people's interests the form of media that will serve the national interest and zero sense of self-importance here when I'm saying it's meetha because I when you said and I told you that there was only in in my early phase Randy TV the only occasional stories where I saw impact but I saw the impact potential of the medium of the visual medium I'm not calling it television the visual medium to create impact and then I saw the Colossal selfishness and waste of people who control the levers of that Medium here in this city and so I felt that sitting two thousand", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-21", "text": "city and so I felt that sitting two thousand kilometers away yeah it was time to give them a reality check and I I can tell you with absolute conviction today as I felt then that I was I have been closer to the hearts of the people then and now is there a reason that you deliberately moved from Delhi to Mumbai because all TV news channels were based in Delhi in those days even now they are daily Noida whatever time so India gave me a job in Delhi and by the time we raised the investment from Reuters I was in Delhi my family well sorry I was in Mumbai they called me to Mumbai so they said we want to launch in Mumbai I said why not I remember first going to kamla Mills the day we got the investment check and we said we'd build a building I remember going to Kamala Mills at that time and we went to the second floor of this building and said this is a big enough place twenty thousand let's build a studio", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-22", "text": "big enough place twenty thousand let's build a studio that I saw the bricks being laid we constructed the studio from scratch so why was I in Bombay Bombay I still call it why was I in Bombay I just happened to be there and it was okay and I felt you can do it from here but we kept a center in shiram center but over a period of time I began to enjoy being in Mumbai and enjoy the distance of it all you know this is my two cents I'm a bit of an upstart between both you Giants but I should say there's been a decade also since I was with you so also in that time we saw a lot of the channels the prime time and the bulletins before that were primarily your Deli beats and your metropolitan cities and all times now at that time under him was the first channel that actually went with live assets to you know villages to towns and show what the real people are going through on a daily on a daily", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-23", "text": "people are going through on a daily on a daily basis you know if a kid fell into a borewell a live feed of you know to make sure that the ndrf don't go there and rescue that kid it was them that started it and then we all ran towards it it was also conviction you're totally right yeah in India has lacked a sense of purpose and along with the sense of purpose comes with a sense of conviction see why I am why am I doing this job why am I a journalist why am I an editor what purpose do I serve is it going to be only for myself and my career progression to a certain extent yes all of us do that but I think that my true professional satisfaction came around the time the prince story happened around 2006 seven when I began to observe almost like a student that if you actually use the impact of the medium you have a larger purpose and the larger purpose when you're convinced of your larger purpose in anything in Live Vision", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-24", "text": "of your larger purpose in anything in Live Vision then you do it with greater passion right you know and not that this can be taught in a school of Journalism but if you see a small child's lives being saved and you see that the entire country's attention in that period went to those visuals and then you ask yourself in an ordinary news day the story of a child falling into a manhole would have been a small item a diary item a diary item a 30-second wrap a page three single column 100 Pages that's the most buried inside and perhaps the child's life would not have been saved right and so then you know and also it's at some time I saw overall Awakening happened right before my eyes I'll tell you why because the first time you do the story there are a lot of people who raise their eyebrows say you're Sensational say that you're over hyping things say this is tabloid journalism but then if it is so bad then why is everybody following it why", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-25", "text": "is so bad then why is everybody following it why is it that through an entire decade and more than even now the editorial agenda that we set is followed by others we are so bad obviously there is an Awakening a weakening and and that Awakening was very opportune because let me ask you ishan and Smita around the time I was doing this I was doing Prince we covered 26 11 in a different way with greater passion we questioned the country's foreign policy and by the time we were doing the scams which is cwg scam around May June 2010 right up to the prime minister's press conference in February 2011 approx that time till the Devas ISRO scam and then the agitation and then nirvaya 2012. this entire period was an exponential of of of the return of news yes of the absolute and unquestioned return of news in the medium of television you know what purpose it served it was a reality check for all these Hindi channels operating in Delhi who by", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-26", "text": "all these Hindi channels operating in Delhi who by then had descended television into Saab CD Ludo Nagin dance virtual videos videos of people dying on camera you know the kind of rubbish bhootpreet occult you know sansani right and all of these forms I despise I think this you see they'd say to me you are the one who's after ratings I'm not after ratings ratings follow me because what we do is out of our conviction I'm doing service to my country yeah now whether it be the coverage of monkey gate as a test series or Cricket Series in 2007 or 2611 or the corruption cases somewhere serious news came back we are the people who brought back news on television you run India's biggest news agency you know that how many channels at that point of time were running Pure News no whatever I have done people may like or dislike what I have done I can confidently say that in my in my last 16 years as an editor of a channel channels Network whatever I have", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-27", "text": "an editor of a channel channels Network whatever I have done only news you can describe what I have done but I have not compromised on the news no it's the form of you so so what we did because we actually Smitha brought a lot of conviction back people we we were doing things because we believed in it and we we when we do something you believe in you don't think of the consequences you know you don't think of who's going to be upset who's going to be hurt which political party will like it or not like it who is Suresh kalmadi close to who is Suresh kalmadi fronting for what happens to a Raja we don't think of the consequences you don't even think that when you're doing Devas ISRO scam which by the way there was arbitration case in the high courts yeah two months back and the verdict after all these years proves me correct yeah and that was the scam at what which point of time I'm sure Dr Manmohan", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-28", "text": "what which point of time I'm sure Dr Manmohan Singh realized he couldn't quote unquote handle us with his political managers we were to be fair and to be honest out of control you know and we did it taking those risks at a time when all these players in lutein's media who now give me lectures in journalism weren't doing nothing but sort of being the most obsequious before the establishment at that point of time so we took those risks we did it with our conviction and I think the people of the country appreciate it I think I think they did I think I appreciate it absolutely taking risk is something of course you've done several times too much of it but many times I've been sitting you know I think why does he do this why so many times I feel that please you know especially when you when that thing okay I want to get to the part of of what happened with the whole Waze parambis okay before that before that I just want to ask one", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-29", "text": "before that before that I just want to ask one thing you're right about the conviction that you had I mean we all followed it no doubt about which conviction sort of stance and everything no doubt about it everyone did but Kabhi Kabhi sir you know maybe on a certain story we go overboard sometimes did any story give you a doubt that you know maybe I've said a little too much and I need to start backtracking or probably bring bring sort of bring it back on track that you've sort of veered away from a story I'll give you a small example and what I'm talking about specifically this Aryan Khan story that happened all channels sort of had one similar line initially as they went on and as the aspects of the story started tumbling out tumbling out then we realized that listen there are there's more to the story than that than what has been you know put on record or what's come out in the investigations and then sort of people sort of figured out", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-30", "text": "and then sort of people sort of figured out and toned their life tone their sort of coverage more aligned to what the truth of the matter was using that example do you think that sometimes in a particular Story You've Gone overboard everybody has different views on the truth I have not been part of the herd so who knows what the truth is in any case so I would go by my conviction and I'm not forcing anyone to follow what I believe in I won't go into details of that case sure but I I don't sit on the fence ishan in anything and I think it's not in my nature B it should not be in Indian journalism obviously with facts at hand now as far as backtracking which you said earlier I've truly not backtracked on anything I have not backtracked on any story I do and I have found sometimes that in the moment if you backtrack you may regret it later sometimes the truth takes time ishan I give you two examples I just told you about Devas", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-31", "text": "you two examples I just told you about Devas Israel yes now it has taken all these years for a Court verdict to come 12 years um polker yes okay at that time it was seen to be done and dusted in two months right and the entire media went with whatever the Maharashtra government said why didn't they raise questions I didn't Backtrack on palger I didn't Backtrack on on Devas ISRO um I wouldn't even Backtrack on 2G and these are stories I have done and sometimes it's a question of emphasis there are two ways of doing a story you want to do a story to give yourself enough leeway for an Escape Route later example being adarsh U.S housing scam if a journalist wants to kill a story he can kill a story you can call it a housing scam and that's a sure way to kill a story you name it no no because if you call it an environmental issue housing scam and coverage in page three part of the environment page you're killing the story I", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-32", "text": "of the environment page you're killing the story I was the only person who called it Cargill for profit I didn't break the story I rebranded the story deliberately and a lot of journalists were upset with me he's trying to take ownership for a story we broke and I tell them what what impact did your coverage have for six months because you were covering it without conviction without passion you are making it a story of a building that has broken environmental rules we made it a story of politicians using deceit and falsehood yeah and shooting of the shoulders of supposed allocations which were meant for families and taking that money and that property in benami assets for yourself so we have actually went to the nub of the matter nub of the matter and you can ask the then chief minister if you ever interview him you ask the then chief minister of of Maharashtra whether he called me and I told him I'm not backtracking you think ishan and your people know this who are", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-33", "text": "you think ishan and your people know this who are watching this you think over the last 15 years of my life hundreds thousands of politicians have called me to backtrack now they've stopped calling because they're convinced that I'm a Madman now the point here is you want to share one conversation I will mention it on and off record I said I'll write a book one day but but the point is all you have to tell the politician is outside I'll pull the camera you speak speak on camera speak on camera but even the politician by the way he lost his job two days later right we have broken stories that have upset people yeah and we are not in the business of making people happy when I first did IPL you know so many people lost their job did I do it to make people lose their job no that was The Accidental part there is no thought in it I went with my conviction there was something hanky-panky with the coachy IPL I thought then it cost people their job", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-34", "text": "IPL I thought then it cost people their job it cost people their franchise we're not in a popularity race but since you use the word backtrack I'll tell you confidently from then to now I have never backtracked I've gone to jail and back but I have not backtracked sometimes I am sure that in the fullness of time the truth will come out it did right with this whole thing in the fullness of time it does but what happens at that moment there are so many other influences if you want to be open to the influencers then you'll think and maybe you will be forced to backtrack I tell journalists and reporters don't do the story if you have to backtrack later when you did this whole thing I mean when that whole Sachin was a uh episode happened I was on air with you with your team when that team came in to pick you up and I seriously didn't think that they'll drag you through jail I I thought it's going to stop it's going to", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-35", "text": "I thought it's going to stop it's going to stop now now and you know I mean your even your anchors were like no it's not stopping ma'am it's going to continue I said any rogueling I didn't believe when I saw those machine gun carrying guys coming and your family out there being pushed and shoved I I it was it was terrifying at least for for viewers and I had so many people calling me up and said are you watching it yes I'm watching what's happening it was it was terrifying and then they sent you uh to jail what was that like or not that period I mean you didn't talk about it for quite some time you didn't you didn't say what what you went through that those jails the loja jail and all is where terrorists are there Mafia accused are in that jail what was it like for a journalist for and a an army officer son you grew up in cantonments all that no Godfathers it's a very yeah that's", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-36", "text": "that no Godfathers it's a very yeah that's a period of my life I have not spoken about in detail what you are asking I have spoken about the fact that we we were right what we've done is right there's no backtracking that we'll be proven correct in the court of law which we have been we've spoken about the legal side of it because the charges that were put against us were outrageous outrageous but before I come into what happened in jail let me ask you today if the commissioner of police of Delhi holds a press conference and says that everything in Ani is the proceeds of crime and says that there is another news agency I was investigating I have completed the investigation in four hours against that agency that is a very good agency this is the bad agency I found out and we will confiscate the assets arrest Smitha prakash arrest the family lock up this premises These Are the proceeds of crime and if on that day outside your house or your home", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-37", "text": "if on that day outside your house or your home all of the media in Delhi were to come stand outside and accept the Prescott police commissioner's claim and paint you as a financial criminal how would you respond and if it so happened and then my mind thinks so what you are asking me about the date of my arrest which I think is the 5th of November 2020. yeah but what you must and and I would like to tell the viewers of your of your podcast they must look at the events that happened a month earlier in fact around the 8th of October 2020 exactly a month earlier parambir did a press conference in which he said that I was buying the viewership of people of this country by paying them 500 rupees each and everybody lapped it up everybody wrapped it up you're the generalization I'll ask you two questions how is it that there were dozens of journalists and camera crew outside my house two hours before the press conference number one how come the he that", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-38", "text": "the press conference number one how come the he that fellow that commissioner who now has so many cases against him he and the entire one they did they did innumerable press conf innumerable uh interviews on that day yeah right and the third question which I I want to raise before you is if a person works hard works hard as a journalist for over 20 years breaks out from very limited Capital with intense hard work Builds an organization and dreams of scale as in the clear dream was to build India's largest news organization which Smitha I want to tell you Republic is destined to be the largest news organization in India and through hard work and if it so happens that as part of that growth story we learned in the Hindi news channel a Hindi news channel which becomes number one beats everybody Hollow through editorial coverage right I am obviously upsetting the apple cart of a lot of media corporate players in lutein's Delhi who have had it too good for too long but however is", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-39", "text": "had it too good for too long but however is this the way to fight me is joining hands with politicians I have upset and policemen who have their own X2 grind the way to honestly battle a competitor in a media industry where entrepreneurship should be welcomed I don't like people who use unfair means to fight me I I very much welcome anybody who battles it out on the basis of stories coverage marketing distribution anything but that press conference by the way happened a day after we completed eight weeks as India's leading Network in both English and Hindi which is starting which in the history no no what I'm trying to say is that it by October 2020 Republic had reached a unique position where no media organization in the history of India in print or television has been Numero Uno in both English and Hindi since 1947 to now name one media organization in India who which has held Numero Uno position in terms of viewership audience share in English and in this obviously people saw it as a threat", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-40", "text": "in this obviously people saw it as a threat now I'm not suggesting a conspiracy what I'm saying is that maybe it was a fortuitous sense turn of events for my enemies who thought that they would join hands together and this is the right moment you know the organization and the individual is doing too well let's beat him down using a combination of factors and I think that it is a it is a curse for the luteians media that they have chosen unfair means at a time when they should have sharpened their editorial objectives and their lesson for them forever should be do not use unfair means to get ahead today Republic is even more powerful and stronger influential in terms of viewership we have a destiny in ahead of us what has all this led to so I wanted to bring you back from the arrest because see what happens Smita if I talk about my rest what happened to me in jail what I went through I will talk about it I have no problems", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-41", "text": "through I will talk about it I have no problems talking about it but I want people to understand the background look in this country when someone from a middle class background aspires for greater dreams then they extinct existing establishment which wants the status quo to continue sharpens their knives and can't fight me individually but they must not join hands with criminals either in uniform or in politics because then you are bringing the profession down it is the biggest blot in the history of Indian media Smitha I'm not telling us ordinary thing forever for the next hundred years I hope there will be nothing worse than what happened it is the biggest blot in the history of Indian media that the media got together with politicians policemen murderers and convicts look at the people they join hands with now they can say we didn't contractually join us but they opportunistically did join us to bring me down and to bring Republic down is it not a fact when I'm saying this today and those people watching", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-42", "text": "when I'm saying this today and those people watching it if they are watching it can they really look at me eye to eye and say no no we did not do it yeah the fact is they know we did it why did you do it why could you not work harder why could you not behave the pulse of the people with you why don't you believe in the future of this country like I do so these are questions anyway that part is over so what happened to me on in November 2020 is extraordinary because I'm asking you today who in the Indian media which editor-in-chief has gone through what I went through but the moral of the story is if the idea was to crush me and to crush me in various Ways by physically assaulting me and bringing 111 120 strong group of people hundred of them fully armed 26 27 of them inside my flat pushing me with the butt of their weapons hitting me in the crotch yeah physically assaulting me thrashing me through the way", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-43", "text": "physically assaulting me thrashing me through the way right not even letting me wear my shoes jail doing things which are unbelievable we talk about human rights abusers I don't talk about it putting me shifting me from one jail to the other dragging me through my hair right unspeakable offenses making me open my wounded hand with my with my own left hand to open my stitched hand which had 88 stitches on it right and making me open my stitches in front of me which I have said you know doing things like that why what were they and then telling me why don't you chill out a little bit we'll chill out picking me up from my jail cell at six o'clock in the morning and taking me for quote unquote interrogation for eight hours ten hours what did what did chill out means chill out is that uh tone down no tone down your you at that point in the jail or you or your editorial of your channel no no don't down tone down in every", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-44", "text": "your channel no no don't down tone down in every way obviously what was this all about it was an attempt to make me tone down it was an attempt at getting me on a table to compromise and I can proudly say that I did not compromise I did not tone down I did not see karap roshna right I am convinced of what my work is what my ethics are what my values are I didn't tone down but again to cut the long story short and I'll answer your question later and you said that you are Sachin was here aren't you no no I knew the fact is the fact is that again not going back to the arrest but I am going back to what purpose all that served I am asking today sitting in your office what purpose did it serve what difference did it make but what I'm saying today is that is that in the history of Independent India which editor has gone through this which editor has gone through this and I know I was a spectacle for all", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-45", "text": "this and I know I was a spectacle for all a lot of people in the lutein's media but I think they they had an opportunity to redeem themselves by raising their voice then not that I needed them to let me make it very clear I can fight my own battles I don't need them but for themselves they should have done it now as far as the absolute incident which you are speaking about which is the moment of the arrest you have seen about it you've seen it on television I'm sure but you've seen perhaps one percent of it and when a person goes through in those circumstances is it's an experience if you want me to detail the experience I will but but it's a it's a different experience but I would not say that it's a degrading experience how can you say that your family was also involved no no it's not a degrading experience it's not a degrading experience because it depends on the way you you go through the experience I can tell you Smitha I", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-46", "text": "go through the experience I can tell you Smitha I went through the experience with absolute dignity I went through it with dignity and I don't think you can be degraded if you don't want to but yes you know I have never been to jail before I have never been shifted in jails before I have never been treated like a terrorist before I remember on the day when I was arrested they created a green corridor from my house in lower parel down through to Alibaba and in the middle of traffic the only thing that was going through in my mind was what nonsense why why are they disrupting Mumbai traffic for me they created a green Corridor yeah for two for the Vans and either you know black curtains I could see beyond that they create a green corrid of what 50 60 kilometers so that I could be moved through right I Could Be Moved Through the traffic and when I reached alibag when I reached alibag and I went to the police station and when I", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-47", "text": "and I went to the police station and when I came out and they said that it's time for you to go to the go to the court because you have to be produced there as a convict as an accused I came out of the police station and I saw that there were dozens of drones flying over the police station the entire city if you could the town of alibag had been cordoned off and there were drones flying because they were capturing every moment of mine so I want to know who was getting the CCTV footage of me they were obviously providing live footage of me to their political Masters and I looked above and I saw the drones and there were crowds outside hundreds of people outside I I remember I I met Shamu I met my wife I asked for her to come and she came forth but I was shocked that the at the level of preparation they had for my arrest it's like that caught Chota shakilaud Ibrahim yeah and brought", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-48", "text": "caught Chota shakilaud Ibrahim yeah and brought him in then it was crazy I was I was in you know the funny thing is at that point of time I was looking at it as a reporter I I I put myself in I said that now let me look at this as a reporter it's a reflex action there's this there's this great criminal being caught inside and what the way is being protected you're not being nobody around there were 30 40 people around me all armed and ready to push me back if I moved a little bit did you fear for your life at that stage because you know everybody knows that some of them were encounter Specialists out there did you fear that they that you could be eliminated at that stage see when all of this stuff is happening you're not thinking that far you're not thinking that far um I know that a lot of people now if I look back there were so many things which happened which you know it's good I didn't overthink at", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-49", "text": "which you know it's good I didn't overthink at that moment because when you're in a when you're in a jail cell and there are 60 70 people in the cell with you and there are about 1 200 very very very hard in criminals sharing the place with you and there are people from uh from the D gang right next to you and in yourself and there are people who are you know there are pedophiles and murderers and there are uh there are people who are deep into narcotics who are with you and there was you know the people I exposed for in Narcotics were there in the cell next to me and there were people who had a significant play in The dawood Gang who were made to meet me in jail and I met them and uh when people from the underworld were sent to myself and I I met them and I spoke to them and you know at that moment at that moment when you're in that situation you you don't really think because you're thinking of the", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-50", "text": "you don't really think because you're thinking of the next thing uh you can't think I when you stand in a phone line and there are 50 people ahead of you you get two minutes to speak to someone and I always used to call my lawyer you know first thing and you know and when I used to speak to my law there's if I policemen wanting to hear what I was saying so but uh so you know when you're going through so much you're not really thinking because you're in a Cell you're in a big cell and there are several cells so you're in one of the largest of them and there are too many people so the only thing that you're thinking about when you're being taken for the for the interrogation is when this is going to finish you know and there are moments when the interrogation is getting too tedious and these guys they are having a whale over time they're eating in front of you they are talking in front of you they're worshiping and then", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-51", "text": "in front of you they're worshiping and then they're going in and out and then they are going to the washroom and back and you know you're simply going through three rounds of interrogation and it's never ending and it's really stupid uh but you go through it and at some point of time you almost feel like what are these police people doing and it was seeming to me that they were constantly taking instructions and there were attempts made to try and break me you know you break him drag the interrogation make it personal hit them hard take him from one place wake him up at four o'clock in the morning hit him put him into one cell take him to another police station make him stand there at the entrance of the police station let him be unguarded all that stuff but but the truth is truth is I have I have always I I look at it far removed I was not I was looking at it from the other perspective what they are trying to do and it was apparent", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-52", "text": "what they are trying to do and it was apparent to me that it's a very predictable attempt to break me and those who are trying to do it don't know what stuff I'm made of were you hit pardon me no of course of course I showed my wounds to the judge you see none of all this was ever reported I I I I I I I I I asked for physical examination and I I told the lady judge out there I I showed her I opened my shirt I I lifted my shirt and I showed my shoulders and I was totally bruised through and through totally bruised through and through on the way to the police station out there I told the cop this is what I've been through I've been badly assaulted physically in the pretext of moving me from one man to the other I mean let me be I'm coming into the I am coming into the van with you there's no need to assault me it's a judge sent me for physical examination I", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-53", "text": "it's a judge sent me for physical examination I was physically examined the the doctor completely saw that I was bruised but there was a lot of pressure I believe on the on the medical on the doctors that and they said that I have I have self-inflicted injuries can you beat yourself can you bruise yourself right down your spine at the back your hand won't reach yeah so it's bizarre but that's what it is did you at that time regret uh ornam that maybe I shouldn't have maybe I can compromise and any point of time did you feel that my journalism could have been a little less aggressive maybe or absolutely not never if if you see if I did not compromise in 2011 when the entire Congress Government tried to put pressure on me when I was the editor of times now then why would I compromise now this was physical I have had cabinet ministers warn me personally of consequences I have written letters back to Cabinet ministers describing my phone conversation with they", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-54", "text": "to Cabinet ministers describing my phone conversation with they have gone complaining to my bosses this has been the story of my life so I I really don't care about the consequences should the consequences go so far I mean at one point of time when you're exposed to all kinds of people when you're in jail you do think about what's going to happen at night and so I wouldn't sleep at night I would just remain awake the whole night so I remember in my jail cell I would lie next to the window and there's a big cell and there were the bars and I would keep looking at the looking at the ceiling and anyway I couldn't sleep because because there were these gigantic reptiles on the ceiling which was very high and I I mean not gigantic reptiles they were not lizards but there's some some larger form of lizards and different colors they were on they were on the on the on the on the ceiling so I I would anyway I would adrenaline", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-55", "text": "so I I would anyway I would adrenaline was running very high and you have a mat or a bed or what was it that you had I had I had a I had a very very thin mat that's it I had a thin mat and so I would roll that up and I would then lie down at the end of the day because you're too fatigued you've come back from interrogation you don't know what's going on in the outside world and it's just endless it's going on and I thought that I had been they denied police custody for me because the judge realized the first day that this wasn't much of a case so legally speaking the judge in the alibag quote denied police custody it's only accidental that the high court kept hearing we have kept going up and down that it went on endlessly I'm sure the state government enjoyed it but I would as I was saying when I would come back from there at about 12 1 o'clock and all so everybody", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-56", "text": "at about 12 1 o'clock and all so everybody in the cell would be sleeping and I would I would then just look at this I said I don't want to sleep because what if that falls yeah yeah so I would I would sort of I would not that I'm I would use these excuses to stay awake so I don't think I slept for two three days actually how many people were there in yourself about 25 30 then they were more brought in 40 45 50 maybe 50 50 55. let's go to the motive again you've said I must tell you that I was okay yeah of course I was okay inside inside the cell I was okay I shared my food and uh and I I must tell you that towards the end of my period in jail um I'm not a big fussette I wouldn't eat too much so they would give four rotis each or something so I would have one Roti I would share the rest with the other so I became quite popular because whatever food I got", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-57", "text": "so I became quite popular because whatever food I got I said let us all eat together I remember two days before my release [Music] 30 of us I think in the cell we Saturn we made a circle and we sat and had dinner and and I served them and they served me so I went and took my food I had some and everything else I gave them dessert of parleji biscuits so I was very popular because I was sharing my food I I didn't I was constantly sort of moving around so it was fine I got to meet a lot of people ahead and when finally I got Bail what was that like they would they would for the for the because I had such long hours of interrogation at that time that even the fellow inmates would feel bad for me because in you know this at the end of the day I'm not a terrorist I'm not a murderer I have not committed a capital offense there is nothing to interrogate me for so they would feel sorry for", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-58", "text": "to interrogate me for so they would feel sorry for me because I would take me early in the morning and they would bring me late at night so when I would come back about 8 30 or so I would go past each you know each cell and they would talk to me and then somebody would say we were praying for you and there was this man he was a Sufi he was a Sufi religious person in one of the cells and they actually they were praying for me so when the day of my when the day of my release uh you know I was there were people were people were clapping in the nearby cells because I would I would constantly bother them I would not let the guys sleep on the other side because I had no access to news on what was happening on my case so I would keep asking the person in the next cell was your TV here there was a TV small TV about four cells away and I couldn't hear or see so anybody would pass that way I", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-59", "text": "hear or see so anybody would pass that way I said please put it Republic so they after some time they would they would pass on the information and they would do their own legal interpretation of it whatever but we became friendly it we became friendly so everybody knew about it so the day I got I got Bail it became sort of breaking news yeah and everybody put on Republic so everybody was watching Republic Bharat in taloja jail in that distant thing and I got the breaking news from them when you came out earn up that huge crowd did you expect that crowd that there'd be so many people lining the streets when you got out of jail when that you know when you came out with that hand fist in the fist bump that you did and you can't blame the media because pretty much everyone was there yeah effectively I'm not the popular person in the media but be that as it may I was getting late and the the release order had been signed and we got we got", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-60", "text": "release order had been signed and we got we got pale I was standing there uh was I was having a casual chat with the jailers then somebody said you should launch a Marathi Channel they were talking to me nicely I said yeah I will so we're having a pleasant chat and I was Shamu came I came out and then the the tone changed because just as I was about to leave the tone changed and I remember Shamu said get into the car I saw her and she said get in the car and so I sat and then the a cop or two wanted to sit in the car and so she said you can't sit in the car I'm taking him home and they said no we're going to sit in the car and they insisted actually on putting me in a police van and driving me to Washi and then the cops one of the cops came and told me that there is a huge crowd outside which is waiting to Lynch you because you have upset their political favorites and", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-61", "text": "you because you have upset their political favorites and that mob is waiting to Lynch you your security is at risk you will you will not come out safe your life is at risk we need to take you to vashi bridge and then you can go from there whichever you want him so Shamu insisted and we I sat in the car and I came out but the reason I was coming out was because uh because my car had been surrounded by the police and all armed and they were not letting me come out and I don't think I'm I'm so unpopular that also hated in this country that people would want to kill me right outside a police station right so I came out and and I couldn't believe what I saw I I had written it out many times what I will say when I came out come out I had I used to have a small notebook and as to you know to sketch the jail cell and I used to sketch things and as to make notes so I remember stuff and", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-62", "text": "and as to make notes so I remember stuff and I remember I would I would distract myself by thinking of other things and about the television medium stuff and about people I met the experiences I had and when I came out I would often talk about think about what I would say when I came out but when I came out the I was not being allowed to meet anyone I was not being allowed to meet my colleagues I was not being my people from my channel were outside there was a distance kept between me and them and they just wanted me out from sight it is as if the Maharashtra government had said make sure that he doesn't get to talk to the people or talk to the media so I I had a sunroof so I stood up and what I saw Smita I will never forget in my life ishan because I saw I saw it on the other side of the road because they'd been pushed back and they were like the policemen were pushing the people back yeah and", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-63", "text": "the policemen were pushing the people back yeah and I saw hundreds thousands of people what they decided to do at that moment all of them maybe they thought in planning there was no way for them to communicate to me they switched on the the lights on their phones all I saw when I came out was just as a a sea of Spotlight Spotlight so yeah and people are waving it yeah oh it was a very emotional moment for me I was of course Very charged up because it had been a long time but when I saw that it was did you don't need to say anything in words and I remember from there because I was going to the hospital to get myself bandaged again because the blood was oozing and it had been bad I was worried about just getting septic or getting a bad infection because of my wounds open wounds in jail and so I I was going to the hospital but I couldn't literally drive because there were hundreds of people following me with their bikes", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-64", "text": "were hundreds of people following me with their bikes and their cars and it was very heartwarming and I realized at that moment that we had won we had one at that very moment we did not need of course the law and everything will follow but in your heart in my heart I only live and we all should live only for public what the public thinks and the attempt was then to crush us and I knew that when I came out we had won and that was important for me it was it was important for all of us even now uh uh these days when people are watching your channel and watching the other channels I mean you've talked about how your competitors got together with the Maharashtra government to put you down and things it's my it's my assumption assumption and we're watching as viewers everybody's watching this and it makes it makes people feel a little bit uneasy that competition between channels has got to this dirt level where there are personal attacks on each other and uh you know", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-65", "text": "are personal attacks on each other and uh you know viewers would like to think but it's it's become it's become very vicious I yeah I mean yeah you know Smitha I am not competing I'm just doing my job they are competing I am not competing I'm just doing my job I'm doing it well and I'm not in a rat race with them they are competing my livelihood is not at stake their livelihoods are at stake they look at me as a commercial threat I am just doing my editorial job I sleep well at night I feel I'm independent I don't owe anyone anything I'm not doing anything bad I truly believe in the future of this country I truly want to do something that makes a difference to the country that's all I want to do they are all fighting me they should not do that and as far as what you said the the the the the demise of any ethics in this profession some things are not necessary you know surrounding where I live with", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-66", "text": "not necessary you know surrounding where I live with cameras chasing me I was living in a I was I was living in a in a in a private house in in Delhi for a few days surrounding my house with cameras uh you know uh following my car this is after you came after I came out after I came out when I was when my case was going on in court and and surrounding my house with cameras then doing shows on me uh you know uh calling me names it was endless it was because I think I think what happened was they realized that I had one but they were giving it one more shot but boss I mean I have to interject here because see I you also say Republic is number one number one big banners on your channel your channel also sometimes tweets out and calls out those editors as well competitions I'm not on Twitter your channel is no that's why I said your channel takes names calls them out by name that we are number one not you you know", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-67", "text": "name that we are number one not you you know so to say that you're not competing you are as well competing you are also there very much so in the in the ratings no I'm reminding people we don't troll people on social media but if anybody wants to give lectures we remind them you know the thing thing is that if you did a show on me calling me names two years back then have the spine or the courage to do a show when you are named I'm not even I'm not even being indirect I'm not even being indirect or subtle about it I am saying that if there is a channel which is now the subject of an investigation by the agency which was making claims against me why don't you do a show on the charges against you I'm asking a question and by the way I'm asking the question very politely not in their tone not in their nature I'm not putting my cameras outside their houses but I'm reminding them and I am only reminding them so", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-68", "text": "reminding them and I am only reminding them so they realize their fault we are far beyond all this but it is necessary to remind them it is necessary for people to remember the episode of what has ever happened to Republic between 2000 and 2022. I don't do it constantly as far as competing is concerned of course we are competing but we are not competing unethically right unethically an ethically but I want to go back to ascribing motive media ganged up with all these people powerful people it is my feeling it is my assumption it is no I I am saying that I believe and let me rephrase this what I have said that if you look at the combination of circumstances a number of people felt it was a god-given opportunity to get us down that's it I'm not saying they entered into a criminal conspiracy but I'm saying that it was an opportunity for them or no I'm you know just to move away from this uh I'll come back to this", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-69", "text": "move away from this uh I'll come back to this whole godi media versus Khan Market gang and all which several programs we've done on this on your show when you do this about foreign media and all but before that I want to come to this you know you were mentioning 26 11. for many people that was like a watershed moment on how terrorism nationalism all this should be covered by uh news media you know Cargill was one episode on how it was like that was a watershed moment for some for people Beyond before us it was uh you know the 71 war and then for many after that because they hadn't seen War post Cargill it was the this that whole moment of what happened how Bombay was covered 2611 was covered and two large extent what you did at that time I mean you were nationalism you wear it on your shoulder collar everything T-Bone no no your nationalism is come on no I don't I don't you are very very in there no no I I I I I", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-70", "text": "very in there no no I I I I I think I I wouldn't have done it had I not feel the urgent need to do it I feel I I feel this is my own perspective that there are a lot of people who are working against the country's interests and what you are calling wearing nationalism on your sleeve is the only only way to put them down you can't given the nature of the threats this country faces and we get a very close grasshoppers view of it in the media given the number of people who are willing to sell this country given the number of people who are willing to be fake present one thing and do another given the number of people who are not talking about why there were protests against the kodempulam nuclear power plant I'm not a I'm not a fan of nuclear power but the fact of the matter is I believe there were corporate foreign powers who were engineering it and given the fact that it's very easy in this country to give two people", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-71", "text": "it's very easy in this country to give two people fake fellowships and three people a fake foreign assignments and give three people sponsored tours abroad to get them to turn quote unquote activist uh to create ngos and then work against the country's development interest these are one of the many facets of it so I feel that since there are so many people who are working as in my countries internal security interests therefore it is necessary for a media house to strongly oppose them now these guys say you're wearing nationalism on your sleeve but it is my purpose putting the news out first is not my only purpose I can't constantly try and tell you I put the news out first I'm subsidious because I would rather say that I put Nation first somebody else may have their own motto or purpose for being in you know but but if I feel that my work as a journalist or whatever I have done has to have a larger purpose I believe in it it's not a slogan for me", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-72", "text": "believe in it it's not a slogan for me it's not a slogan for me it's not a marketing tool it is what I live for and then there are many who say that because uh nationalism is so important to you uh you are very quick to label people anti-national without going into the I mean these are seasoned politicians who have cultivated their image they have their politics and attacks say you turn around and say multinational which season politician are you talking you know I'm not going to know which which seasoned seasoned politicians and it could be just a one aspect of it of course even the you know you you did that whole banakab thing of the huriyad much before everybody else we've all seen it right how the hurry up was fated in Delhi but nobody would say it why wouldn't they say yeah exactly yeah why wouldn't they say JK why wouldn't they say yeah why wouldn't they say it I'm asking you why wasn't wooden this thing yeah so this", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-73", "text": "you why wasn't wooden this thing yeah so this is this is my question why wouldn't they say it I I have only asked the contrary question why wouldn't they say it Smita why wouldn't they acknowledge that did they not know do people not know do we trust people for years in Delhi it was said the huria takes money from both sides I'll be very direct about it you know Smitha oh these are people who are you know on the payrolls of Pakistan and India both first of all there is no proof of anything but the fact is how could you trust them essentially we're saying that there was some form of political mercenaries but nobody said it why are we fearful of bad people for me the questions are very simple in life there are good people and bad peoples Mitha bad people must be fought good people must be supported my journalism is very simple Smitha there is no complexity to this you know they are bad people bad people must be questioned it's a very", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-74", "text": "people bad people must be questioned it's a very you know and and and this is what the purpose of Journalism should be and it's your contourment uh upbringing I'm convinced of this that you you're like there is no compromise with nationalism I think I've seen that with anybody with a slight bit of uh Army background or whatever Services background is that uh you know how can you even think that it is you can gloss over these things in life yes to a great extent Army background seeing my father in uniform seeing a lot of people in my family serve the country being brought up with values but it is also values it is also values and um it's it's my entire family my mother my father my family my my upbringing you know but Smitha why are these things so complex to understand it you know why because we all enter this profession as idealists at least I would say sixty percent of us yeah and then 90 percent of people lose their idealism and I'm fortunate to be surrounded by", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-75", "text": "their idealism and I'm fortunate to be surrounded by people who remind me of idealism purpose on a daily basis and therefore I have I I disagree with people openly and I look at the clearest and simplest way to define them and sometimes that is by coining phrases like the to create I'm so proud to be the author of that first yeah and then it is it is it was kind of shocking first time you know when you use it but today I will not respond to this I I'm not going to I was dearly annoyed with you enough I feel I feel I feel I feel if there was there was what is no but when I heard when I heard the video and this is yeah what do you call them do you call them the tukuri club gang is a phrase is an epithet which they deserve yeah and and in some way consider this Smita that the more direct we are the more sense we make you were the first one I think also who would do complete", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-76", "text": "the first one I think also who would do complete shows on Khan Market gang on lutein's gang and the other side would do this on godi media and you know and these are former colleagues of yours I've heard ravish and the others saying that you know we got trained by the same person who came from uh from London he came and trained us and in journalism and he taught us somebody from London came and thought and he says that uh so then uh this um blogger asked him that and he said how many but then what is the points now here is a person who has who probably is in you know same batches as or whatever you know when we were doing journalism has gone so far away that will openly say that your brand of Journalism is not journalism completely not German you may turn around and say that that is not no I'm not turning around and saying anything I'm saying that if there are people in this country who are making a living by calling me names", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-77", "text": "country who are making a living by calling me names good luck to them I truly believe that there is a whole lot of people I am not naming names for these worthies we are mentioning but there are people who are making a living even today by calling me names so good luck to them I don't need to give it much importance that's all good for them good for them isn't it but does it rest easy does it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't trouble you that you know these are people from who you've worked with for so many years and you know absolutely I please understand we are all on our Journeys yeah I'm on an exciting Journey and can I tell you what my exciting journey is I am in a fortunate position to still have a few years and I hope a few decades ahead of me where I can contribute to my form of Journalism which will serve the country's interest so I am very excited and I am positive and I'm seeing someone younger than me like", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-78", "text": "positive and I'm seeing someone younger than me like ishan and I am saying okay I'm seeing some energy in this guy right I'm seeing you you are doing a new show you are Reinventing yourself I'm seeing people who are doing new things and I truly believe like you asked me about my entire jail experience there could have been a person who's been through one tenth of what I've been would come out like a very bitter person yeah exactly but I I would only advise these people who call others names don't be so bitter sinus isn't in creeping I I I I want people to experience the joy of doing something purposeful with journalism right by calling each other names calling this Modi media godi media this that Etc you know you'll become like a broken record very soon you think about it I am today thinking right now after I finish this show I've done three calls with my three channels I've added extended discussion with my digital team we are bringing out a new product", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-79", "text": "my digital team we are bringing out a new product I'm understanding technology I'm going to use technology to reach the people of this country I'm I'm I'm so happy when I go to my Newsroom and I don't want I don't want the future of Indian media or future journalists who are wanting to be journalists to keep listening to these bitter people yeah I want to get to foreign now what about the future television journalist if if he or she is entering this profession what's your advice to them like they used to call me to journalism schools earlier they stopped calling me every journalism school I went to I would go and say please don't do a course in journalist they never called me okay yeah because but the reason why I say this my question is because see in the end a channel sort of entire news coverage boils down to the 9 pm debate these days 9 pm debates unfortunately take a very you know binaries there's no in between over there that is completely polarized what the", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-80", "text": "between over there that is completely polarized what the the topics that they choose in that sense is it do they lose out on actually covering the news or they essentially parroting one Channel's agenda and they'll go for that only so actually uh see I like what I do so this debate is something I have done the 9 pm debate I have done because this is what I do and I think on a comparative sense unless I go back on the field start reporting or enjoying being a reporter again which I hope at some point of time I will do or do journalism in the more field sense um I enjoy what I do but my advice to both my other colleagues in the media and to future journalists you don't have to do the same thing I see no reason why other channels are compelled to do a debate because they must be there must be other forms of Journalism you know I was just talking to someone on the flight as I came and I said you know they need to", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-81", "text": "I came and I said you know they need to be long firm they need to be stories they need to be other forms of presenting the news and I'm sure there'll be a variety of news you could follow and and if I could I would do it myself and in fact I want to experiment with new forms of Journalism so I think my advice to budding journalists would be this profession is going to explode in the next 10 years you know and you must experiment with everything do what you enjoy there is no set formula of what you need to do you know there is no set formula what you need to do yeah but but whatever you do if you feel that it can help your country it will give you a larger purpose you will have a longer and more satisfying career if you do that and then you will not look at yourself as a cog in the wheel because see there is a mechanics of Journalism you run an organization there are people who will lock tapes there are people who", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-82", "text": "are people who will lock tapes there are people who will edit yeah but at the end of the day there is something that must bind them together which is greater than even your organization itself right you know so that's what I look at do you think that I mean the past few years there's been a certain credibility crisis in the television news business which is not there in say the print media and all because they have the I mean they write it down a written word doesn't sort of it's not as rough edged as television means emotive exactly yeah yeah complete nonsense no no I'll tell you why okay please I I said print is dead and I was almost thrown out of an industry currently but I said it I said it three years back when people called me for an industry conclave I didn't realize that the sponsors of the conclave were newspaper houses and then the event organizers told me and I went on stage and I said that there's going to be a Black Swan event and", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-83", "text": "there's going to be a Black Swan event and when the Black Swan event happens your existing Empires that you built on print will not be able to survive because they're just too overload it and I said I don't feel people will read the newspaper in the way they do it now and covet happened and kovid was that Black Swan event yes and I true but I said this I said this and you I'll send you the copy of that I I said this and people thought I was hallucinating when I said that but the fact is that I had said something which which was quite relevant So my answer to the question on print is print had a chance to reinvent 10 years back in India they refused to there is not one big story of national significance that print is breaking that print is broken which the whole country has followed yeah isn't that tragic yeah that's true people call me names but I'll Tell You by people I can I can name a thousand stories I have", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-84", "text": "I can I can name a thousand stories I have done or exclusive stories I've done or coverage I've done whether it be IPL cwg which have set the news agenda but print has not set the news agenda yeah and I think it may have it may be a bit too late for print to catch them also I think more of uh but no disrespect there are a lot of great journalists in print I started out in print myself it's just the reality that that I think that print should have recalibrated its journalism somewhere around the time that we were redefining the rules of the business in 2007 and eight when we brought in a lot of heart and feeling and emotion and and sense of national pride into our coverage in the later years of the 2000s the early decade of 2010 printed an opportunity to then compete by setting the news agenda on its own but it did not I have a bit of a difference in the western uh World already print is a thing of the past right It's", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-85", "text": "already print is a thing of the past right It's All Digital that they are accessing news mostly I I have a different opinion I think now we also see a lot of Television journalists who are sort of part of print newsrooms as well and they are sort of reimagining what a print traditional print product has to be you have we have you have newspapers who which have fantastic YouTube following they have fantastic social media sort of they've embraced it and they're doing a sort of mixed medium now so to style know it completely into print or no I actually I don't believe in print television and yes I look at it as as video and text correct yeah they're morphing actually and in the future there'll be video and there'll be text and they'll be streaming and there'll be video on demand and then there'll be text so and the text will appear in various forms so in the future our own imagination for Republic in the future will will have a lot of these forms so please don't", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-86", "text": "will have a lot of these forms so please don't misunderstand I love the written word I read a lot myself not as much as I would want to but when I'm saying print I'm talking about the news publishing business in our country which should have redefined itself and its goals and objectives and shaken itself out of its state of inertia about a decade when we're talking about boundaries let's now talk about geographical boundaries you you know many of your TV debates where you uh speak about foreign media having agenda when it comes to India you know doing agenda journalism uh in it and you've often said that Indian journalists or Indian journalism has to rise up to this challenge and we have to have a global voice do you still believe that uh you know we haven't India hasn't managed to have that you know like a CNN or a BBC or internationally or even an Al Jazeera for that matter we've not managed to have that as yet okay as yet we don't have as yet", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-87", "text": "as yet okay as yet we don't have as yet we don't have it um we've been in Sula we've been we've been insular and and and private news organizations have not uh crossed the Rubicon you know there's always that moment of indecision on whether you're going to cross the Rubicon you know historically when you take this metaphor from Roman times it's all about that moment of decisiveness whether you realize that you want to get out of the comfort zone in which you are and then move into an uncertain territory but you need to cross the Rubicon and I said it I had been invited to Moscow 2015 and I was on this sort of what they call a global panel and I found myself as an odd exception and there were I I there were a few Snickers initially when I said that you know the next Global News Revolution will come from India but I I supported it statistically by giving examples of the number of newspapers in India and then proving my case that we", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-88", "text": "in India and then proving my case that we are the most we we are the least insular society and America is the most insular society and the most insular Society has the greatest presence in global media but that was 2015 in 2022 given what CNN has done for itself I wouldn't say that about American Media sure and I wouldn't say that about about uh about the United Kingdom also and and I do know that the BBC will not be able to survive the day British taxpayers don't give money as part of their forced license fees these are hugely subsidized organizations usually subsidized organizations and I'm committed to it I have said it and and we are about a year away from doing it we are going to set up in Republic the first Global News organization I don't know how I'll do it I don't know how I'll fund it I don't know to what extent it will be effective but that's how we built every part that's how you always move that I'm going to do", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-89", "text": "how you always move that I'm going to do this and they'll see the rest later we'll see that as later yeah at that speed that's see when you're convinced about something then it happens it falls through when we started a Hindi Channel we started it with insignificant amount of amounts of it wasn't even your language Hindi is in my language we insignificant amounts of money uh massive commitments out there if the Hindi channel would not have worked then Republic would not have survived similarly with Bangla but some somewhere I believe the people are behind us and carry on carry on you know you do it well but I also believe it's not just a career on moment it is the fact that demographically we we need to have a foothold we need to have a foothold for a say and now about this balancing question which you've asked about coverage and all that you know I've spent a lot of time in the United Kingdom as a student first It Oxford then as a", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-90", "text": "as a student first It Oxford then as a fellow at Cambridge I've traveled down there a lot of friends there can you imagine the disproportionate clout that the United Kingdom gets because of the BBC oh yes disproportionate to its economy to everything and I think we need to think about that as a country so I always look at larger projects which will serve a larger National goal and I think this could be it this could be it you know and and and when we started out with Reuters in in times now I had this Newsroom full of people I don't know it was where in your time we had we had The Newsroom full of Americans and British and Chinese and it was wonderful world bulletin yeah yeah people were even abusing each other in Hindi in The Newsroom and it was quite wonderful so I realized that news is this ever flowing thing you know yeah ever flowing but your your Ambitions and everything that you want to do centers around uh just journalism isn't it you", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-91", "text": "do centers around uh just journalism isn't it you wouldn't want to do anything beyond journalism of course not no rajasito oh great crazy you would be better with the Lok Sabha seat forget I'll tell you let me tell you yeah let me tell you why not public service please don't put that question I'll tell you one thing I I there at the at the height of the scams there was this Minister who said let's have lunch okay and he chased me so I said we'd have lunch and over the lunch after some time he asked this question as we were heading to dessert and I was not coming to the point he said what about public services you know a person like you should serve the country I said I'm paying the bill and leaving it's a it come on [Music] excited about the next day and I think this is if I can do this for the rest of my life it'll be very fulfilling so I can be a very fulfilling career I think I", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-92", "text": "can be a very fulfilling career I think I can't in life can you imagine me as a politician no no I can't be I'd be a pain for everyone yeah it would be difficult imagine you I can imagine if it was a politician but not within a political party I don't think anybody can control you in living a political party I I just love what I do and I think that natural career progression that in lutense you know people like to have you know abhi now I need to be but there are enough worthy people to be in the Rajasthan but no this respect why do I why do I need to be there I'm very happy where I am okay uh and and by the way I I mean the media is going to go through such a dramatic series of events and where can you serve your country best is what I ask I've already got an opportunity I'm so lucky you know I'm maybe one among 10 000 or a million who is in this position today to play", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-93", "text": "a million who is in this position today to play a role and of late when we recruit young journalists when they come into our Newsroom it's such a joy to meet a 22 year old who's come in and then they ask you questions and I think I have the next 10 years 20 years to guide people do new stuff so but I'm happy before I even tried did you did you know it was completely organic completely organic where do you learn these words these are sort of keywords in the digital world organic growth everybody wants to know that when you do these debates it's so high octane so high temperature this ice look at him as my protege yes of course so this is pride in him I was like I can't do this 10 10 pm debate I can't sleep at night how do you sleep at night after that high energy debate or no so everybody's screaming over each other you're also screaming and then they they come on your show and they abuse you on the your show", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-94", "text": "your show and they abuse you on the your show and you don't get ruffled yeah I love doing it why is he shouting back at them they're saying all kinds of things how do you sleep what do you it doesn't uh it's the only time in the day I really let my head down everything is done I look forward to about 7 38 it's like the time of the day when you know everything is done you know administrative yeah Financial HR organizational legal meetings and yeah now legal legal legal legal more legal more Fier more case these state governments never tired of filing Affairs against us and me so 7 30 is a time when you feel like okay now my time is coming it's my me time hmm it's my me time and and I feel very happy I mean there are days when I felt stressed before going in but at the end of 11 o'clock I feel very happy so I I really enjoy it one of the another question which many viewers listeners have is that journalists are", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-95", "text": "which many viewers listeners have is that journalists are often very close to politicians you know the proximity and uh then journalists start getting this aura about them then humby important hey and then people start believing that oh these guys can get things done so that's what I want to ask you is that is it is it true does one get this Larger than Life ego that you know I can't even get everything done in Republic I have to get 10 permissions from all our senior colleagues to get things done so no it doesn't apply to me a and he's right I've been sitting in Mumbai for for the last uh 17 years so I'm okay and I mean I don't know yeah maybe these are this is the kind of stuff that I used to hear when I was here but I think the country has changed I'm I I'm I'm I'm so happy and I feel this country is going through a liberating experience where that kind of stuff where media persons could open doors does not happen in Daily", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-96", "text": "media persons could open doors does not happen in Daily no and I think that's a lot of discomfort that some old fashioned journalists have with this present government that you can't open doors yeah it's not important to be seen anymore and I think it's good yeah it's not disdain Sometimes some journalists see this as oh the government has disdained for us I think there needs to be what would I call a church State divide or equivalent of that there needs to be a little distance right and the proximity is not necessary that kind of proximity proximity is not necessary you are reporting the news why do you need to be carried around in a government plane why do you need bottles of champagne to be pulled out and then you're asking questions on who is going to fund the losses of Kingfisher and the prime minister is saying we have a responsibility towards Mr Vijay Malia's Airline while you are sipping taxpayer paid champagne having a ball asking a prime minister why", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-97", "text": "champagne having a ball asking a prime minister why he's not funding Kingfisher and then coming and writing articles about it not once asking about whether this is state sponsored corruption so you know I'm just giving one example that one question to Manmohan Singh that was asked you should go back in the Ani archives and see his answer yeah I was and I pinched myself that I was a prime minister promising committed taxpayer revenues to save a struggling Airline yeah right and an airline that was had proximity at that point of time Vijay mallya was very close now the Congress establishment so what did that proximity Serve the People of this country ask a counter question way before we came and we changed the narrative over the last 10 years because for 60 years before us before I was an editor this proximity that journalists and editors and media organizations had with governments what good did it do to the people of this country it got them nothing it is the greatest disservice in the", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-98", "text": "them nothing it is the greatest disservice in the name of proximity now the same people who were used to that level of proximity are now complaining that the government is not giving us access is it the government's job to give access to journalists when necessary yes if you if you're if you're unveiling a light combat helicopter yes but why on a daily day-to-day basis do you need proximity to Ministry of Commerce Ministry of Finance Ministry of corporate Affairs Ministry of Railways defense I ask you Smita I was horrified the beat reporters would only be there to get jobs done to a point to which ishan yeah I'm telling you and you should share this with I thought I'll quit the profession the levels of proximity I saw proximity at all levels proximity to a joint security proximity to a minister proximity to a prime minister it was something to actually in the in the 2000s it was something to be proud of hmm not be ashamed about not connections it was so", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-99", "text": "not be ashamed about not connections it was so disgusted so rotten so rotten so rotten please don't remind me about it but I feel answer to the question is I think this is great right now the journalists are being told you do your job you fund your bills you find the hotel to stay in New York if you want to if you want to sip the champagne you do you pay for your flight tickets it's very good so I think this distance is very good very very good what does arnab do to let off steam you said it is your debate but you know everybody has something or the other music Cricket something Sports Gym what do you do I walk I walk a lot and and music all the time all the time the only time I'm listening to music is when I'm on the move word music do you listen I listen to everything except guzzles everything guzzles sort of make me very if we slow me down a lot and so I listen to Everything I listen to soft rock", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-100", "text": "so I listen to Everything I listen to soft rock I listen to uh I listen to Sufi I listen to everything my generation present generation every generation 50s the whole Jazz anything that makes you that gives you that sense of balance that one needs I you know the reason I'm asking is I remember that one incident when this stand-up artist came and harassed you on the on the flight and you just did not react you just sat and I was like you will SWAT it anybody will SWAT it and you just sat there without reacting at all how did you get that equanimity because I was watching a very interesting film called two popes that was a lovely i i i i i i i i who the actors there in that film um I'm forgetting it too absolutely I know so I had never watched a film in which two performers hold the film throughout and I never get the time to watch a film and if you're very honest very often people want to interact with me on the flight", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-101", "text": "often people want to interact with me on the flight so the first thing I do is put on my headphones and I watch a film it also allows me to introspect so I had just begun watching a film and uh I don't I don't recognize the individual you are speaking about I thought there was a condition the individual had and and I felt that it is not my job it is the job of the security people there to do it and I finally thought he was shouting at someone else and and truly to be very honest with you I had my headphones on I like to watch at like if there's a scale of 0 to 100 I watch it about 90 so my volumes are high I cut off and I watch the film I did not realize much about this whole episode till I actually landed because I was on my way I think to interview to interview Yogi for something so I was more focused by the time I reached my hotel I wanted my notes on the interview and through", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-102", "text": "hotel I wanted my notes on the interview and through the flight I was watching the film it's only when my reporters told me there was some social media traffic on it and that's the fact the interview it just struck me I have to ask you on this what really put you well we were always on the map but really like solidified it and the other person's political career plummeted was your Rahul Gandhi interview foreign I want to know what you went through what I went through yes I'll tell you after but I I mean the thing is that she sometimes things drag no yeah yeah so I I felt it was dragging because uh because women empowerment it was repetitive and it's not easy as well pardon me it wasn't easy for you I mean I'm just talking as a joke yeah probing them approving the man for an answer and repeating your questions in different iterations I sort of assessed him well in The Green Room before that because he had he had come up very", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-103", "text": "before that because he had he had come up very excitedly walking up with me up the staircase telling me about my Wikipedia background and I realized that he was doing research on me and wanted to impress me about how much he knew about me and in the green room then he told me asked me how old I was and I said I'm so I'm this is my age he said oh you're much younger than me and I said yes but I have 19 years of work experience and and I I told him because you know he didn't get it he's just staring at you he didn't get what I was trying to tell him and then in the interview also I don't think he got it and and I I felt uh I mean you have seen the interview now yeah I think he blanked out after some time and the other thing is that you shouldn't try to impress I'm not impressed by any interview or anywhere you know Smitha when I do interviews there is one", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-104", "text": "know Smitha when I do interviews there is one thing I tell myself that if this is my last conversation with the person so be it I never do an interview in the expectation of a second one you know and that is what I feel you said what should you tell journalism students I tell them this let this be the last one but let me not embarrass my profession by doing it in a way that I would not like the post script of the interview to be read so I think it was a very simple conversation which he could not handle appropriately appropriately and I feel that he and his party should not take it personally after all we are children of Merit we are people who educated ourselves we are worthy citizens of this country we know I am not here to give someone a walk over um they've boycotted your channel and one or two other channels and they they don't come on your debates and it continues they said that because it's it's very personal your attack on them I think that", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-105", "text": "it's very personal your attack on them I think that I think there are many people in these parties who want to ingratiate themselves to their bosses by trying to pretend that they are going to be the uh you know the people who will save them from the attack of our Urban Republic and these self-appointed custodians in these parties are the biggest enemies of these parties and they presented with things like that yeah and let me tell you this people aren't quite missing them on TV it's fine people are writing to us to ask them to come yeah so it's okay we don't miss them and and we don't have this we see Smita we don't have anything to gain or lose by a political party coming I have at one point of time been boycotted by all parties when I did the story on 21 parliamentary secretaries being appointed wrongly by the ahmadmi party I was boycotted by them I was boycotted by the BJP when I questioned the late sushma swaraj and you", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-106", "text": "I questioned the late sushma swaraj and you know at that point of time I have highest respect for individuals but I was only doing a story and even a pmo when you asked that question uh during Musharraf visit when you asked that question I mean in the pmo I know I know they said never again will we invite or no it's it's okay they I got I got invited once to a prime minister's press conference in 2011 and that is when I asked uh Manmohan Singh any about the scams and he spoke about the compulsions of Coalition politics so I was looking at it as a reporter I got news points out of all my interviews the interview became a newspoint yeah yeah the interview became a newspoint which was not the intention I was just simply doing a straightforward so so you've been in this rarified air where you were in you've met him and all none I have met him so not a verified air yes yes of the Congress", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-107", "text": "so not a verified air yes yes of the Congress you have interviewed sorry no no just but I I object to the users you've seen him yes right in this sort of new relaunching that they're trying to do with this Bharat jodo and Etc do you think he can I mean he's a credible opposition or can he put up a real fight against the BJP election Machinery now this is a conversation only in lotion's Delhi this whole conversation can the Congress do it can it be done is a conversation that is happening within a 10 to 10 square kilometer area in this city I can assure you that and it is a conversation which is obsessing them and I think that I think that people on in in Delhi media should go out of the city and then experience outside this is not a conversation outside not a composition outside any party any individual can transform themselves but they have to be connected to this country in spirit in spirit not through social media campaigns not through what you call minders", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-108", "text": "social media campaigns not through what you call minders we have if we want to have a political party with its 53 year old debutants and 70 75 year old minders good for them they can keep relaunching themselves I have no problem with it but it is not a matter which which I spend too much time thinking about in this country there are so many things to do I totally don't have an opinion on it if you ask you're asking me for my guess no not in this way not in this carefully manicured version anything that is uh that is true is always it comes out as as as Raw anything which is true is not manicured is not well planned it does not need minders if you're true and you're going to be accepted by the people of this country any political leader who rises from the masses will be accepted by the people of India in the future right and anyone who goes through a political finishing school right done by people who've lost themselves will never be successful", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-109", "text": "by people who've lost themselves will never be successful in this country that is what I am observing I mean I it's not then I need to be right but that's my sense of it country has moved on the country has moved on and people are very aware very aware you know they don't look up anymore to any individual they don't look at anybody as a first family they don't look at anyone having being first among equals anymore there is there is a competitive Spirit which the Prime Minister alluded to in his speech when he spoke about an aspirational country right and aspirational Country will not look up to someone because they are from a family this is my view and I I love that aspirational aspect of India but the narrative in Delhi is still stuck 20 years back they're still asking in 2022 the questions which became irrelevant somewhere around 2006-2007. and this this narrative these people from Delhi that you like to put it their their desperate need for validation from the", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-110", "text": "put it their their desperate need for validation from the western western media especially yeah you still see that these desperately people in the power Circles of of old who aren't in in the charm lot anymore you think they still crave that sort of Western sort of yes to what they're doing I have not come enough to this city to feel it trust me I'll do an analysis of this and give you an answer but answer roughly again guesstimate to your very straightforward question is I presume yes I presume yes but but but you know what happens things take time to change there is something called a domino effect there's something called the trickle-down effect things change at the top people tell us corruption goes at the top why does it go at the bottom it will take time because because it will take a whole value system and sometimes that can take half a generation to go through the changes that we brought about in the Indian media around 2010 the fullness of these changes will be evident around", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-111", "text": "the fullness of these changes will be evident around 2025. this is my sense of it if it has taken me and people who worked with me a decade and a half to bring about a cyclical change in journalism then as a country it will take equally long it changes in countries economy culture Society ways of thinking media sometimes take a period of time and it will not read one individual or one organization or one political party to do it it will have to be a overall effort so when I when I talk when I when I when I when I look at the country people say you know 20 20 you know 100 years 20 47 I somewhere look around the country 2030 2032 because in my own sense I'm looking at it in terms of generations yeah see I'll tell you a simple answer to your question ishan when people who were born in the cell phone age become the principal wage earners and their families right which means I'm saying people born around 1996 right when they turn 30.", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-112", "text": "people born around 1996 right when they turn 30. say approximately which is about 2026 that is when you'll see the fullness of the change so I'm very optimistic about India 20 25 2026 because you know it's a combination of things and I don't know if I'm communicating this well enough I'm a student of sociology and the reason I tell you is because economic sociology people everything is linked we are going through a digital Revolution yeah you know your generation I'm talking of your generation is fully a digital generation right your approach to life will be very different your responses will be very different right you and but the challenge for for us is to put in your generation the strong values of nationalism and to for you to believe in nation first so when we talk about media when we talk about political parties when we talk about things changing I can equally sit here and tell you oh you know what people in lotians are are cut off are insulated but I'm not saying that I'm making it as", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-113", "text": "but I'm not saying that I'm making it as a sociological observation that if you come to Delhi five years from now you'll see a change in thinking there are still a lot of people who are living in a sense of nostalgia right they are looking for the return of the past I can understand it is true everywhere in you think that there aren't enough people you know who are for looking for the return of the left in Bengal for example you know there the people look back at the Glory Days and say we associate with that with our good times but I would say that your good times are gone the good times for the people should come what I'm seeing overall is a sense of decentralization in this country right and media Society everything is a reflection of that so there is no easy answer to your question but I I would say that there is going to be a hockey stick change in this country after 2025. by 2030 we'll be living in a different country by 2035 by 2035", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-114", "text": "living in a different country by 2035 by 2035 this country would truly have been transformed I would say confidently today you will not wait for 2047 to it for India to be a superpower the period of superpower them will come quicker than people expect and you will see it happening quicker as if we have political stability social stability over the next few years this aspirational assertive sort of population that you're talking about they will I mean there will be roadblocks I mean they this is what it is right I I in my opinion the Western media and all that at least some parts of the western media I mean they don't like this assertive India I think over there this is happening and you can see it in the Echo chamber of the say the foreign correspondence Club they have a similar sort of news angle to every story that India comes out of you know so I mean and you have worked with a foreign partner in the past as well we work with a foreign partner too we see", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-115", "text": "well we work with a foreign partner too we see it over there I mean how do you look at it you know in this this newspaper called the financial times in London right they did a interview with me as part of this lunch with the Ft series and I had spoken about my aspirations to go Global at that point of time and I found that when they finally published a full page with my interview they presented me as this sort of you know slightly uh right of Center uh you know person who is not very grounded in reality on what can be done and that was because they felt that what I said at that point of time about Indian media Going Global is an impossibility now I tell you today if I say the same thing in London today if I say the same thing in Moscow today that I said in 2013 1415 they would take me more seriously correct and not just true of me Smitha I would say true of a lot of people because India is being taken seriously yeah", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-116", "text": "lot of people because India is being taken seriously yeah India is being truly taken seriously and I think that it's very important for the Indian media to go out of the scrabbish mentality of fighting with each other to look about what is the purpose that they want to serve towards the country so I'm I'm very excited that's why I say Smitha that I don't like the sense of bitterness I hate you you hate me oh you are this party that party come on yeah I think we are not serving the country well true so we think we can say we can coexist but we can have different ideas as well of course exactly yes oh on that point thank you so much thank you thank you very much and I wish you and your podcast all the very best thank you and I hope I didn't say anything out of turn no absolutely not it's been very Illuminating and Illuminating yes that is the least thing that people say to me it's been very interesting and we've not quartered", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "41b5c39a9e13-117", "text": "me it's been very interesting and we've not quartered we've not fought we've not disagreed on anything in different points of view at times but yeah very interesting uh conversation especially about where media is going where it's headed and an interesting insight as to what you went through in you know during that trying period from 2020 to 2022 and hoping for better times thank you ahead thank you all the best thank you Smith and thank you thank you thank you thank you for watching or listening into Ani podcast with Smitha prakash do rate like or subscribe on whichever Channel you heard this or watched it namaste [Music]", "source": "6rwylMR4ecc"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-0", "text": "I left Indian Express I was told that you won't last even three months I was quintessentially a document print reporter and I'd moved to television which had nothing to do with documents 17 years later I'm still here men are insecure yeah I mean the bosses I've had have been extremely insecure you don't fit that stereotype that you're not that young sexy looking thing arnab is somebody who actually got me into television and I've always admitted it and my mother always taught me foreign welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today I spoke with navika Kumar who's the group editor of the times Network it was an interview in which we discussed a whole lot of issues including the nupur Sharma episode which got a lot of flack for the channel as well as for Navica and there were Firs against her we spoke about the future of Television we also spoke about television debates which are which are blamed for all the controversies which are happening in the", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-1", "text": "all the controversies which are happening in the country today also uh people saying that hate is what is being generated in these TV debates listen in namika thank you so much for being part of ani podcast with Smitha prakash I'm going to begin with the obvious question which is like you are literally on everybody's uh in everybody's drawing room every single day like uh we watching you on times now with English Channel we watch you on the Hindi Channel weekend you're on frankly speaking and something so you know do people come up to you and like because you're in their drawing room saying they know you so well for a familiarity uh because they think they know you and you don't know them uh that happens uh to me uh sometimes when I enter a room or enter a strange place a hotel lobby or something or a airport uh there's some people who almost say hello to you and they don't know they can't place where they've seen you and you know they've seen you", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-2", "text": "they've seen you and you know they've seen you on TV uh but they can't connect so I sometimes when I see that confusion on people's faces I go up to them and say yes you saw me on times now oh yes you saw me on times now navbharat I'm the same navika Kumar and then they say oh yes we saw you there we were trying to recall uh that did we know you and did we meet you at a party or something that happens sometimes but familiarity I think talking to you uh Smitha is such a change normally uh one is on the other side asking the questions and podcasts with Ani I think is uh doing a world of good to you uh getting people to talk I'm enjoying uh watching your episodes and are you quite uh burning a trail yourself and for me uh talking to Ani it's more talking to Smitha who's been one of the few friends that I've had yeah I've known you for a long long time and we've", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-3", "text": "known you for a long long time and we've been working together and you know it's it's lovely to see friends becoming so successful uh and you know like I've seen you in the print uh side and then you made this shift to television that was quite a leap of faith navika so I'm gonna get to that but before that when we were talking about the familiarity angle I have to talk about your family they are so wonderful such a lovely sense of humor your family has and they're very grounded like they live with a star in the house but Zara Sabi if you show a little bit of you know many inches immediately like come to earth right star in the house is definitely not how they treat me uh and I think my children are the levelers so to speak keep me firmly grounded according to them I'm doing nothing right uh I don't know if you face that with your children uh but my children really think and and the younger one even more so critical", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-4", "text": "think and and the younger one even more so critical of what I'm doing uh you know when you're 21 everything seems so yeah uh pointless yeah and the world thinks that you know like oh my God you're a very powerful person you come back home to reality Earth totally Earth and uh I remember my younger one when he was growing up I have a nine and a half year age gap between my two children and my younger one when he was growing up I came home and I uh said to him did you watch Mom on TV so he says I don't like that you want to avoid me and you go inside and hide inside the TV I don't like that at all so so sweet okay so now when you took that leap of faith navika I mean not many people you know when you have success in print and you've worked in print medium for several years not many people shift It's usually the other way around television is like so exhausting and so there's a burnout and you", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-5", "text": "exhausting and so there's a burnout and you know in your mid-30s or early 40s you say TV and then you move to print you like the slower Pace most people like that but you did the other way around was that like a difficult decision for you to take Smitha my life has never been planned uh so it's not like I thought that oh I've done this and now I want to do this and this is how the ladder is shaped I didn't know uh The Next Step that I would take uh would take me up somewhere or would uh throw me down into an abyss because there was nothing Beyond it so life has never been planned um you know I I started working got married within a year had a child uh in the same year of marriage and uh had a difficult time and gave up uh you know working all together for three years brought up my child uh came back had to restart all over again so there have been so many challenges that I've never looked", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-6", "text": "have been so many challenges that I've never looked at anything as a planned way of you know climbing some Hill or a ladder or something like that I'd worked almost two years before marriage and and up to my baby in in print then I quit it all then I freelanced for a bit and then I uh you know came back and joined back the Indian Express in 1995 and uh I only remember the stories that I did and uh the tough challenges that came my way uh for example I was expected to deliver on the first day I was given a beat in the Indian Express which was that the Telecom beat and the day was if you recall uh 1996 the day was uh uh you know raids in sukram's house oh yeah and and money was coming out you know the uh that was there and I was told by evening I have to uh you know produce a page one story and I didn't even know the way to San in Delhi so you know that's how it began", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-7", "text": "in Delhi so you know that's how it began uh trial by fire and I only know that um you know I I sincerely worked hard I sort of went uh you know I had this way of getting into Crooks and crannies of various uh uh you know bhavans and also one you know just to tell our viewers or listeners who may not know that this was a period when we couldn't Google information we had to go to that sanchar Bhavan you had to go to shastri Bhavan you had to go to raksha Bhavan you had to get the information out you had to meet with people Google and it was the era of landlines because cell phones at that time were 16 rupees per minute and definitely you and I could not afford nothing no chance at that point in time so uh that's the way we started so when when the issue I had already worked for 10 years uh post my comeback so to speak in print in the Indian Express uh and I was pretty happy sorted", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-8", "text": "the Indian Express uh and I was pretty happy sorted doing my kind of story yeah you were breaking stories yeah I was breaking stories in a Sweet Spot there and uh you know keeping my home work life balance and all of that was happening till uh uh times now was going to be launched and I was followed for almost three four months uh uh why don't you join us and I felt uh you know why should I disturb you know I I am a bit resistant to change so I said why should I change I'm doing all right and I'm in a sweet spot and balancing everything why should I go why should I go and you know what actually made me change my mind it wasn't the thought about uh you know going from print to television and how my life would turn topsy-turvy it was actually that I was traveling to Australia and I had my cell phone because of small kids I used to carry and newspapers never used to pick up the tab for uh that bill for international for international", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-9", "text": "the tab for uh that bill for international for international calls okay and uh because there was no minute to minute reporting like in television that I learned subsequently so I was there and I got these calls you know asking me to join and the conversation wasn't ending because I had not even agreed to meet the people and finally because I wanted that call to end I said okay when I'm in Delhi I'll come and meet you because my bill was growing can you imagine and such a momentous decision and then there was no looking back because uh you know an opportunity was knocking my door and I felt uh okay they've asked so many they've relentlessly followed me let me try it for three months let's see how it goes and when I left Indian Express I was crying and I was told that you can come back whenever you feel like you won't last even three months you won't last even three months really why and uh you know a very dear old politician uh told me when I", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-10", "text": "very dear old politician uh told me when I joined an informed you know people got to know that I had changed my job I was told that I made the hugest biggest you know gigantic mistake of my life because I was quintessentially a document print reporter and I'd moved to television which had nothing to do with documents 17 years later I'm still here good for you and I I brought document journalism to television yeah and made it interesting yeah a number of Firsts to your name and uh I think also you this you caused a kind of A disruption if I may say so because there were many uh who were you know in the print medium women journalists who did not make that shift at that point of time you know because when you're in your mid 30s or early 40s as an anchor there weren't many when you made that usually there were these young pretty girls who were doing anchoring whereas you made that shift and you came straight on as an anchor you didn't come", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-11", "text": "you came straight on as an anchor you didn't come as a producer that's not really true because I didn't join as an anchor at all I uh joined as the political economy editor okay uh so I I was more in love with my reporting that was my passion that was my calling frankly anchoring was never or something and I'm not even a trained journalist I've done no a journalism course I've not done any mass communication course I'm a postgrad in Eco and I moved and I was covering uh more economic beats so to speak economy beats and I realized that if I didn't touch the politics of the political economy I would never make it to front page on Indian Express and that uh you know sort of resulted in the stories that I did uh and I I uh you know I thought many people think that anchor is the be-all and end-all I think it's highly overrated I think unless you've been in the in the gullies of the Ministries uh you know if you're", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-12", "text": "of the Ministries uh you know if you're doing policy if you're doing government functioning unless you've been uh you know through all the floors of North block some people don't even know that there is a second floor uh and uh you know there are attics there where there are loads of files and information a lot of cover if you know what you're looking for and if you know the right people and if frankly you know how the system works and I I want to share this with you because uh you know whenever I went to North Blog the peons outside the babu's office with with mantri's office okay they've remained the same in the last 25 years so the common uh chat between us used to be and that is the philosophy of life you know governments change uh Finance ministers change uh we've seen it all bureaucrats bureaucrats retire but uh media uh and and a little bit of that uh things you know they remain the same so I used to know all the peons all", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-13", "text": "same so I used to know all the peons all the guards in sanjar Bhavan in uh North block uh and you know somewhere in South blocks you know these are the people uh that I used to really hobnob with like you know when when you and Ivy attend press conferences we've pretended that in the past and you get this attitude thrown your way because you know from a bureaucrat or from a politician in your mind you're having this conversation and you're telling him you will be gone yeah you will be transferred to you know somewhere else I don't know how many of these conversations we've had and I've I've done the gamut you know I've done krishi Bhavan I've done food uh you know there was a time when I was doing do you know Russian prices issue prices of Wheat and rice which will never make it to newspapers or television but they were declared no no it used to be a front page news for the ET or uh somewhere because it was General", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-14", "text": "for the ET or uh somewhere because it was General public information so I've I've covered that I've covered Monsoon forecasts uh I've I've covered everything sugarcane arrears uh then I've covered transport I've covered Commerce I've done WTO meetings uh by the Dozen and um you know so you which is why I wonder why did why did your uh you know former colleagues or even uh seniors say that uh you won't make it in television hardcore Journal I'll tell you why because you don't fit that stereotype that you're not that young sexy looking thing you are one Amma of two children and uh you know you are knocking on 40 and wanting to shift hello uh what are you smoking these days you know people would tell you and and frankly um Smitha it's all in your head what is it that you say oh you've made it and what is it that is actually some sort of an achievement it's different for different people yeah for me just to be able to work and then", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-15", "text": "for me just to be able to work and then come back home and also get homework done was the work life balance at a certain stage in life that I needed and I did that and I wasn't apologetic about it and you got that work-life balance when that term was unfashionable there's something called Wildlife balance I mean I couldn't I didn't have a mother-in-law who would uh help me running the house uh so I had to do these things myself and there wasn't I mean I wasn't a one Sati savitri who was dying because she was bringing up her kids and working and a nirupa Roy who was uh you know stitching blouses I mean you know I had a guest here uh a doctor whose episode will run later is mental health expert and she was saying she was talking about this you know this poster uh iconic poster when we were kids like uh you know getting into journalism and all it was like this was like very motivational she said but this proved to", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-16", "text": "like very motivational she said but this proved to be detrimental to the mental health of many women professionals who thought they can do everything and who were told you can do everything so there was this desire to prove to everybody there as a result of that women professionals our age group took on just too much do you agree with that uh point of viewed a Psychiatry with all due respect to them I have nothing to contribute to it uh um you know it's all very well it's it's actually each to their own what you devise for what works for you only works for you nobody else can prescribe and nobody can do it for you every household every individuals every individual's children every individual's home or work has its own requirement and demands true so how can anybody prescribe anything to you yeah you just do it at least I've done it through trial and error this is working this is not working you know that's how you get through life so is it is it like uh easier", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-17", "text": "through life so is it is it like uh easier for women journals if they have a woman boss like as a woman editor do you feel that you're more empathetic because you understand what it means or is it the same how many women bosses are there Smitha yeah I've not had one have you no no so that's what I'm asking where was the choice there was no choice and men are insecure yeah I mean the bosses I've had have been extremely insecure uh they've not they've not allowed you or given you something uh out of choice you've had to and I don't hold it against them that's the way the world is you have to fight to stay where you are you have to fight even harder to get ahead uh and and that is the struggle in life that we've been used to and that's the way it is I mean uh there is no fairy tale made out of oh I've been through this struggle and therefore today I should be uh it's just the way life is", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-18", "text": "I should be uh it's just the way life is your kids fall ill uh uh and and there is a big story it it normally happens around the same time uh when you have to travel uh your child will fall ill uh and and you have to balance and then you will have your guilt to deal with uh it's not somebody from the outside who's telling you it's not your workspace which is telling you okay you know it's just you yourself you you are fighting those battle as you said inside your mind inside your heart and you do and you try and somehow get a right balance sometimes you succeed sometimes you don't yeah and that's the way when you moved from a print to television how different were the newsrooms of a print uh because you know uh many young journalists when they come to television Newsroom the the immediacy the noise the anger the all those passions which run very strong and the the abuses because everybody because you know the pressures are so much in television live news", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-19", "text": "the pressures are so much in television live news competitors why did it happen it's so noisy and angry a television Newsroom in most you know whereas in a print I'm guessing that you know it was a most slow organized slower yeah at least in the time when I was in print I don't know if things have changed because now most print places also have to do digital reports and stuff like that so that's changed quite a bit since I left 17 years ago uh but yes newsrooms in television are more noisy when I came in here uh Smitha uh you know uh the I found a difference that there weren't many people my age you understand the Newsroom watch average age was much younger and so I felt I was you know kind of working with the uh you know kids at one level there were a few uh mature people but in television I saw not many people were making friends it was it was pretty competitive in print in that sense I'm not saying it's any less competitive", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-20", "text": "that sense I'm not saying it's any less competitive or there are more friends uh so to speak uh but at least conversations were relaxed uh at least you know I still have a group of friends from the express that I still go out to lunch with you know so so there is there is a little bit of this conversations that hap happened in a print a lot more than I see it happening in television in The Newsroom frankly knows no space for too much of uh you know camaraderie or even a relaxed conversation because everything is on fire all the time yeah the immediately in fact the print guys also say the those who work in print say that this immediacy factor is detrimental to journalism and that's why there's no depth to television journalism compared to print you know they sit on this pedestal compared to television journalists reporting which to a certain extent yes sir if you're doing print journalism you can take three days to file a story or you", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-21", "text": "can take three days to file a story or you know at least in those days it was nowadays though because of web as you were saying everybody has to file some news I've I've not worked in a magazine so I don't know how magazines work but uh in newspapers let me tell you you've done PM visits right we've done it together PM yes during television for television we had to file a story a day right or sometimes three stories sometimes report on that and you remember Outlook in India today used to be the magazines who used to travel with us at the end of the entire visit they would file one story because that's all you needed to do they would do the sightseeing they would do everything whereas we had to file Blow by blow which everything you know there is a difference between there is a difference uh my only sense is that uh you know there is no comparison to each their own if uh somebody likes the pace of doing it once in a week so be it", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-22", "text": "of doing it once in a week so be it for them uh and if they think they are adding much more value to it good luck to them but I think in in television uh what I feel uh and and I'm sure when these days I'm so used to everything I say being split into so many different fibers uh each you know meaning something else but I look at it this way that you have to be so much there if you are in television yeah the challenge to my mind in that sense is so much more because you have to be all there yeah when you're saying something you've got to have everything in your mind there isn't a script that you're reading from especially if you're reporting yeah and especially if you're interacting especially if you're doing a show uh you you've got to have it all here working in your mind and you have to manage a panel and you have to keep your eye on uh the possible line of debate the outcomes Etc so it's all you've got to be", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-23", "text": "Etc so it's all you've got to be there isn't that more challenging than sitting uh if you're writing a print copy also at least you get an r or two whatever you get more time than a television journalist get and then you have a camera on you which is catching everything is enhanced expression yeah uh on on your face so you you know true true you know what it means yes I I I'm I'm not I'm not I've been on both sides of the fence and I've loved both sides so I'm not making a comparison I'm just saying that there are different challenges that you have to uh sort of meet and uh whatever works for you at that given point in time is great yeah let me get to the point of TV debates uh so what took you so long Smitha so you I mean anchors are now the source of all evil of society everything right from from the respected Judiciary Society your fault yes so you are the cause of all evil I mean everybody", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-24", "text": "you are the cause of all evil I mean everybody says that Society is breaking up because of TV debates Hannah so and you were talking about how you have to be alert all the time so it becomes your fault how does that rest on your shoulders as I've grown up uh some some very uh you know very fundamental thoughts and principles of life I've grown up with for example uh my my parents are from Earth while Pakistan and uh you know during uh partition they walked and came my mother came in a train where people were being uh you know literally slaughtered around her so she's seen that with her own eyes and she would wake up in cold sweat uh till I was what 17 18. uh middle of the night she would have nightmares and I've seen I've seen that uh so uh and and my father when we were three siblings and when we used to fight I don't have a study table and my brother is pushing his elbow and my father would come and tell us", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-25", "text": "his elbow and my father would come and tell us this story that and we never like our children we never kind of made fun of the stories our parents told us about their childhood my father always told us a story family some Park used to mention which I've forgotten Lucknow Park is that is struggle so uh from there then my father also started the first fertilizer PSU uh in the country and then you know went to a private job and stuff like that so we when we were born we had cars you know so my father used to always tell us there is no shortcut in life never is long lasting so sincerity and hard work is what will get you whatever so uh you know I keep that principle in my life that wherever I am it may be the first step of the ladder it may be down under wherever I am I am because of my hard work because I worked my way up I didn't have nobody to push me ahead so sincerity and hard work that was one principle", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-26", "text": "so sincerity and hard work that was one principle and my mother always taught me again so don't bother you don't have to justify challenge we should not be going there to our maker and then have to lower our gaze and say okay how do you like you were talking about you got to be alert all the time it's not just what you're saying what the other person is saying in the debate and expert is saying and you don't catch that or you don't stop that person or you don't counter that person then also your it's your fault no but even if you counter and you set it uh you know set the record straight uh even then you have Firs against you because you haven't countered by screaming at that person throwing the person out foreign you ultimately have to answer your own conscience that what you did could you have done it better I think always always without question could you have done better there is always space for improvement so when you look back on that uh nupur", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-27", "text": "so when you look back on that uh nupur Sharma episode I mean that that led to a lot of flack coming the way of the channel and you there were Firs and and well everybody knows the snowballing effect of that one debate when you look back do you regret could you have done things better or do you think that this is the pitfall of Journalism on television uh Smitha um the only the only thing that I feel is that can could I have done it better or like I said always everything can be done better my best debate I can still do better because you know in hindsight you know at that inflection point I could have said this but you are as good as your thought process at that time Plus in television there are a lot of things that are not visible today I can talk about it because uh the Supreme Court has heard my case I mean so far I could not even speak about it uh and I don't want to go because a part of the case is", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-28", "text": "want to go because a part of the case is still pending yes uh but I uh I just want to say this that I've said this on the show but nobody wanted to hear that and nobody's heard the show in its entirety uh it was a 33 minute uh long debate and in the beginning I'm telling them that don't speak take over each other I'm in Kashmir there is a problem in connection oh you could hear clearly and and there is a time lag when you are out station you have worked on satellite links you know there is a time lag yeah it takes about 20 seconds sometimes more sometimes more and on the day this was and you can pick up I think it was 26th of May you can pick up the newspapers that day there were a few Encounters in that week where Hindus had been targeted so our office is in Lal Chowk area the internet was not functioning properly there the delays were much longer than they normally are internet is a bit iffy", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-29", "text": "than they normally are internet is a bit iffy in the heart of Srinagar at the best of times and this was a day when internet really was uh rather terrible connections at that time and I've said this on the show in the beginning that I'm requesting all my panelists to please not speak over each other because there is a delay in communication it's very much there in that file that link which you submitted that I could submitted it to the court okay and I have said that there and I there is a time lag of 20 25 seconds so half the problem arises out of the fact that people thought that I was hearing and not reacting I was hearing those who picked that the so-called fact Checkers who picked only a portion oh well fact Checkers uh God bless their souls because as I said you're kind I don't want to bless I don't want God to bless the ultimate judge is the maker I leave everything to the maker frankly because Justice is not for us to do over", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-30", "text": "because Justice is not for us to do over here and especially if you're unaccused how can you do or say anything so right now so that only that part of so then what happened then so then after after nupur said what she said she had she had also been provoked to My Mind by the other panelists I just came in and I said that this country has to be run by the Constitution of this country and this country's Constitution makes it imperative on both sides not to hurt each other's religious sentiments because these are questions of faith and this is ensured in the Constitution now to my mind I had put both people in their places Yeah by saying that the country has to be run now did I not call names to nupur Sharma should I have called names why I don't know did I call names to the other person on the show no I didn't um and it's not it's not me to call people names yeah and in this case by the time the delay and whatever", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-31", "text": "in this case by the time the delay and whatever had happened I ended the debate with one sentence and to my mind I had put the perspective and the context where it should have been which is the Constitution but it snowballed into something so big and then this whole because fact Checkers love us fact Checkers lovers yeah I'm going to put that in quotes and though it's in a podcast with I'm putting it in quotes right the fact Checker so-called fact Checkers and Fitness that hatred I can't sometimes understand that you know this whole thing North Korean television news I can also sit and say that I can't understand some of your colleagues who worked with you for 15 20 years even to say that you know yours is North Korean television how do you deal with that people you work I will have very few friends uh Smitha in in the profession that I am in uh and uh you know my family not connected to any of the things that I do they are completely on the other", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-32", "text": "things that I do they are completely on the other side of the fence so it's very easy I choose my friends and my friends are for life I don't have too many friends in the same profession yeah and uh therefore uh this conversation frankly doesn't happen in my friend's circle of course my friends have been very very kind to me the ones who are not in this profession but who are in other professions who've stood by me like a rock and some of them happen to be lawyers do you know uh I want to say this about my friends some of them happen to be lawyers my son is also a lawyer but he can't officially appear for me because there is some bar rule that disallows a child yeah it's so bizarre anyway but they're not say bizarre with the Judiciary you can't say that contempt contempt so uh you know my my son actually because he's a lawyer and he knew what the pitfalls were he was more worried than I was yeah I took it", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-33", "text": "was more worried than I was yeah I took it in my style like you were that situation then because people were scaring me and there was so much hate and I you know uh social media is so full of you know that's something yeah they preach so much about tolerance but all the intolerances on social media especially the so-called liberals no they got after you liberals I am from a small town even on your clothes they make comments I can't understand I'm Benji you know somebody I don't know my name on social media is kachra I'm I I've trended with the name kachra Tha no my least you don't hit back I've seen that there are many uh journalists I can't I hit back I shouldn't cue take a deep breath listen to Mohammad Rafi there's nothing that you know an evening of Mohammad Rafi doesn't sought out for you navika please you going Mother Teresa Mother Teresa I'm telling you because my uh you know music for me is like", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-34", "text": "because my uh you know music for me is like forgetting everything I've heard you sing you sing lovely sing I used to at one point in time Smitha it was my passion you and Rishi Kapoor my goodness I mean like amazing no uh um I can I can uh you know Siri so I'm like a serious you would need something to you know to cope with this stress so music is the way I I'm a regular South Delhi Punjabi I have many outlets shopping retail therapies ranked higher up music is there uh spending time with families there Khana Pina what is better than uh butter chicken and naan uh it even had in my family uh you know when the kids were this small they used to say rrbc day to day what is that rumali Roti and butter uh you know I I it's not like I don't have my bad days but I try to limit my Badness I don't want to be Meena Kumari with all due respect to Meena Kumari", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-35", "text": "Kumari with all due respect to Meena Kumari tear jerkers don't turn me on I love my Karan johars I love that girl live like king size not by robbing the banks but uh you know wearing your pole Keys your designer lenghas and all so I can I can find happiness and you you can afford to buy it you can just uh designer bags sorry it's got a beautiful collection of sarees in fact that's one thing also you did like anchors in those days when you started anchoring they were everybody was in Western Wear you know jacket and shirt I don't think like that no so it doesn't go with my producers and directory he told me then first I was to I I was told to wear jackets and shirts it just wasn't me it just wasn't me I probably didn't do that much of uh uh you know Western Wear even in college I was more churidar kurta kind of a person so you took that to the screen and said this", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-36", "text": "so you took that to the screen and said this is how I'm going to Anchor it is me I why should I adapt to others others should adapt to me okay that's the Punjabi India the Middle East it's okay I don't have a problem I was shocked when that uh when that comment was made about you and I was like uh we all looked up uh to this uh journalist with and said that she's our senior I mean we used to look look at it always right and to and uh in fact uh I don't want to name and you know say things but then you saw these Germans that that you know when she in fact wrote a book book on how when when she was in NDTV that NDTV English used to get all the all the you know bhav and all the finances everything was towards English and when she was in NDTV Hindi it was considered the poorer cousin and it was not the the right an entire book and she anchored wearing a saree", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-37", "text": "entire book and she anchored wearing a saree she refused to Anchor wearing a western outfit and then she made a snide remark on you which which really got my goat at that time that how I mean I can imagine youngsters you stood up for me she's like I think uh the only one who stood up for me but uh journalism no no objections it's just ignore ignore because does it impact your life are you going to change because somebody said something to you also you like a good spot sometimes I feel you know because this television I'm not uh you know I can I can have a good fight I'm a Punjabi spiriter so this fight is going on TV channels I'm going to get to that also so the the unpleasant thing for me please don't make me lose my job I also don't want to talk to my friends also disclaimer all of you are also Ani's clients so for me it's a it's a difficult thing to talk and but and I've seen you all", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-38", "text": "thing to talk and but and I've seen you all I've seen you I've seen or nerve I've seen Rahul shiv Shankar for 20 odd years Rahul and I even worked in the same Newsroom I didn't know that yeah we worked in the same Newsroom and he used to work with for the BBC News Channel at that time with Reuters and so we worked in the same Newsroom and then with or no you know his wife was my producer when I used to do a television show for doordarshan so I've known all of you to 20 25 years and worked with all of you you and I have covered press conferences together and now I'm seeing you all juggling with each other is very difficult for me but I have to ask you that why is it on air why are the fights on air why not why not off air I'll just say okay yeah if I ask him he'll say the same thing I see I I personally don't think that dirty linen should be washed in public", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-39", "text": "think that dirty linen should be washed in public that's that's where I come from uh if I have a problem with you Smith and it's not like I am this Zen level of Tolerance and it's such a put on I I do feel angry but then I have I'll feel angry with people I know and friends I I feel more angry but then I sort it out with them yeah that this is not okay with me and I'll have that conversation with you where we'll crash it out and for me once it's thrashed out then it's down the tube it's flushed and covered forever okay and and then you move on because life means that there will be issues that will keep coming up now you can't you said this to me in 1920 then you said it in 1946 and then you said it in 1954. it's not it's not something that is a open bahi khata which you have to keep running okay so that I do with friends and uh you know I I sort out my issues", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-40", "text": "and uh you know I I sort out my issues I cannot be a friend and I cannot speak with you unless I sort out the mess of the past if it's troubling me so that is the way I am after I've sorted it out and we've reached whatever mostly I'm sorry that's also a given and I have this uh you know if my friends are listening to this they know exactly what's coming um that's that's a starting point that's the starting point what is this so anyway sort it out and you know do a jumpy puppy and move on very Punjabi about my fights also okay but when you sort of finish and friends forever and move out um television frankly it's not the first place that we go to and you know I I don't believe in not taking names arnab is somebody who actually got me into television and I've always admitted it you know he got me into television I would never have explored this landscape if it wasn't his persistence following me and", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-41", "text": "landscape if it wasn't his persistence following me and it was his phone call in Australia uh you know that uh got me you know my defenses low and the meeting happened and the rest as they say is history and I've learned a lot from him but somewhere along the line I don't know why there is there is something that he has in his mind he's never shared it something's been building up but there is there is a lot of uh what do I say there is a lot of bile in there now why should it be on television if there is a personal bile then it can be done I work for the company where he brought me he also worked for the same company yeah I have no problems in recognizing that foreign professional and the way he rose you know with the times now brand the way way he brought it up is something that's part of History who can change it why he has the bile why he has this thing is for him to say yeah hopefully you guys will sort", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-42", "text": "for him to say yeah hopefully you guys will sort it all of you are including headlights today the only thing I don't know now if it is possible because he has put a defamation case which is going on yeah uh for two years or two and a half years or whatever it's been going on up uh up the point is you abuse a brand the brand belongs to a group which is 180 odd year group you can't no it's not a free run for everybody it shouldn't say maintenance you know the days of gandhiji are long gone people don't offer the other cheat these days yeah the and competition has become so stiff all we also represent I mean it's not my company yeah it's not my company you're speaking on behalf if if there is a brand that I represent then I have to fight for that brand because I've also given 17 years to that brand to that value system and there is a value system that exists in the times group there is so each Channel you know for viewers", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-43", "text": "group there is so each Channel you know for viewers who are watching you guys each Channel every week saying oh we are number one we are number one if you ask me if you ask me and frankly you know this is like an autopilot again I mean it's uh you know it's been going on since times now was there and the tone tenor uh has only become Shiller uh no it's not just times now it's every channel headlines is the advertising pie so small that every channel has to have this thinking my first my first I'm sure in recent times especially uh since kovid there have been pressures and and then the whole uh box uh scam as it came out the trp scam as it came out did put a question mark As far as advertisers were concerned uh following which the government also suspended the trp system so uh I'm sure every industry needs some benchmarks to go by um my my sense is that are these trps the best way to go I don't know I", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-44", "text": "the best way to go I don't know I don't think so even in its second avatar uh you know two big players are not part of the system so is it really a system is it sustainable at all this kind of a I don't know it's a it's a call frankly the stakeholders of the industry and the government which uh sort of is the policy maker in this they have to sit together and figure it out it's not healthy it creates pressures content uh isn't really the king uh you know good content so to speak and uh you know it it tends to make people Thriller um and and everything goes by then this is what people want okay that's what even the Judiciary saying that that all this hate and this fights which happen in the debate Hindu Muslim caste related television Society I mean what are what are we saying are we in the real world or not everything is television's fault are we running the country then by that logic then we are running everything", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-45", "text": "country then by that logic then we are running everything so you know it's a very simplistic way of looking at things there is a change in society and I I believe that the society the younger generation even us Smitha just talk about yourself it was not the done thing when I was working we are doing this on karva chauth day yeah when I was working karva chauth was told to me that it was such a regressive thing on my face by my colleagues it's the same thing you know there's no I've just but at least we are we are not taking everything in our stride cave this is a given is remember navika when we were kids our parents would not you see if you if you are a student of History you could ask a couple of questions and say gandhiji or a nehruji or whatever but you could never question anything any decision taken by nehru that no no no because they you defy some people today there is no there are everybody has feet of clay", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-46", "text": "is no there are everybody has feet of clay you can question anything there is nothing special I grew up in Bihar in a convent school it was in Mount Carmel Convent digwadi District or frankly history thank you okay you know you had those chapters which you had to learn where was the good and the bad what was about questioning at that point in time so that's what I'm saying so you didn't question right but today everybody is questioning isn't it that's a good thing that's a good thing and you will this is this is the time you know this is the cycle of things there will be a period Our Generation was not so questioning our parents told the told us that was the rule yeah and as journalists also you know it was like journalism but come back home there was no question you know women journalists couldn't do that hang out in bars and get a story which guys can my dad when my first job in ET bahadusha Zafar mark my dad used", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-47", "text": "in ET bahadusha Zafar mark my dad used to sit in a car downstairs waiting for me to finish and I used to say it's you know creating a lot of tension for me and my father very sweetly would say uh we used to live in Vasan kunch those days and not Vasan kunj of today where everything is so well developed my father used to sit there that may be better you won't come in an auto yeah so you know it was Against All Odds if you got a story because you it was harder you couldn't go to say if you were in Delhi you couldn't go to India International Center or you couldn't go to Press Club which male journalists could do uh you know anyway so let me get back to television journalism of today would you advise young uh journalists that you know get into television journalists it's a fulfilling job sure why not in fact to all journalists I would say that whether it's print web um you know digital whatever television join journalism", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-48", "text": "web um you know digital whatever television join journalism only if you have the passion for it and in our times we were taught that there is a very well defined line between journalism and activism today that line has got blurred and if you want to go back to the drawing board it's a very very well defined line that we were taught to respect I think we need to go back to the basics and look at that line the lakshman rekhas are important many think that that's not the case like I I tend to agree with you that activism or journalism like I I haven't seen you and I haven't done it myself of going to India Gate and standing with a banner and all that because I was the one covering it for whatever reason whether it was a Delhi rape case whether it was us even if your sympathies lied with the people or with the cause you didn't protest but I have seen many journalists who feel that that's not the case journalists should get involved in", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-49", "text": "that's not the case journalists should get involved in that lines are blurred and it's because to my mind the traditional old school journalism uh thought process that I come from uh I think the line is very well defined and it should be respected activism is a different profession it's a different activity altogether journalism is different to my mind but of course fact Checkers if you remember I mean you've not done the foreign beat but you have done at times foreign used to tell me the Foreign Affairs beaters uh 80 percent protocol and 20 alcohol not interested in true okay God bless his soul but not true yeah I know what people used to say but you've done a couple of uh I mean I have tried and you've seen me trying keeping that is one thing that raises my blood pressure okay but in in many senior editors Joe foreign agency reporter where you have no egos agencies so these editors used to you know hobnob with and give Gyan to Prime Ministers so that is an activism of", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-50", "text": "to Prime Ministers so that is an activism of a different level altogether isn't it and they Justified that for the greater good this was a different era when they were the greats and they decided uh you know the future governments the future foreign policies or so they thought uh I don't think on the present day there is any such greatness that has been assigned to us uh nor are we in the position to assign it to ourselves so you interview Prime Ministers home ministers these days everybody knows what they want to do and what how they have to do it I don't think journalists should uh ever ever uh think that they play some advisory role and there's a lot of criticism that also comes uh in you know to successful journalists like you and some of the others don't successful journey in the sense that come on yeah you are right up there it's not because you watch my channel there will be 30 will say then I'll become unsuccessful you are this humility is a little bit", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-51", "text": "unsuccessful you are this humility is a little bit like you are if you say so Smitha you know like a Punjabi humility doesn't come easily to me but if you are saying so I'm happy to believe it you get what changes what changes you get you have to work hard for today's show for tomorrow's show as much as you worked hard for yesterday's show so what changes what is success success is you're as good as your last story is what I was taught when I was growing but see everybody says that you have access compared to many of the other journalists they don't get the opportunity they don't get the access which they say 2014 only a few journals have foreign my beat so to speak was Ministry reporting and I've done various Ministries so that was the beat that I sort of grew up with I've done that and I think I did it with the great deal of rigor uh with a great deal of success only through hard work because I used to go", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-52", "text": "success only through hard work because I used to go down uh you know to get a story to the level and if time permits I just want to tell you there was a story that once somebody told me that there was a minister who came the first decision he had to confide was to give guns that had been confiscated by customs and he gave those two guns to his sons okay and that was the first decision that he took and I was a young reporter at that time foreign sitting in the Indian Express know who I'm talking about because they cleared my story and it was discussed and planned out in The Newsroom in Indian Express and uh near the airport at that time there was a new customs house [Laughter] in case you need help you can call out to him that was so scary it was like um foreign foreign stories out another time I did a story where I used to cover Telecom mtnl had put a antenna on top of the Supreme Court and on file it had", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-53", "text": "top of the Supreme Court and on file it had Justified that we've written to the register that in return for the antenna we'll give cell phones to all the judges honorable judges of the Supreme Court and then the justification had been made on file that our cases are also going on in Supreme Court this will help in building relations with the Supreme Court Judge I see foreign s are paid by the Consolidated fund of India and judges are appointed by the president of India the building and the property is maintained by the you know government or or the PWD by Direction by the president is yeah it's a perk that is being given to them which is not in the pay or whatever which is fixed by the whatever system that is there to decide the judges speak so I remember I filed that story and there was total chaos in the top rung of my uh newspaper okay what do you think will go and I still remember that story went for uh legal opinion to falina riman okay", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-54", "text": "went for uh legal opinion to falina riman okay and he said after it got published no no before because I mean the newspaper would have so these are the firewalls which are there in uh in newspapers but SC firewalls television Newsroom we don't have them that's why I guess because of the images a sum of uh some of the firewalls and uh you know shortcuts have begun to come in but actually this is the principle you have to get you have to get a comment from from the sources in this case it was the Supreme Court and 26 judges so it went for a legal opinion that will be held for contempt of saying this uh the whole process and I think two weeks and these were exclusive of stories so people sat on it for two weeks before a final call was taken and when it was printed uh The Heading the headline I still remember this was 20 years ago the headline read hello your Lordships this television news give you the same kind of satisfaction like this headline that", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-55", "text": "you the same kind of satisfaction like this headline that you're talking about a different kind but it does it's heady uh office of profit I broke uh I think one month old times now and I was the first one to Break Jaya Bachchan first and I was the first one to go on air to say that Sonia Gandhi is resigning at that time I got calls from such high offices to get off air and that afternoon she did resign tell me these politicians whom you meet who you interview and all they must be getting mad at you also at times that they do so people think is this my autobiography no no that's going to be long later but tell me is this podcast going to end anytime soon are we getting all the secrets of my life since it's karva chauth you can Aram say go today to work this is what people tend to think that you know you're meeting with so many politicians there are selfies with politicians they don't understand there's something", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-56", "text": "selfies with politicians they don't understand there's something called being friendly and a friend a journalist can't become a friend as such with politician right you can't even be friends with uh regular colleagues who are journalists isn't it blow your eyes out except you know some touch would few like you and me who can get along because we are non-competitive I guess that's true otherwise uh very difficult to have lasting friendships yeah you have to keep that that uh kind of I don't know whether you have to keep that or uh story Karo against any of them or the organizations does that happen but they argue so much on your channel and they say you're unfair you're allowing that one to speak and not us it doesn't matter to you anymore oh I try to do my best but beyond that um yeah that's a good way of looking at it that you know this is if if you expect somebody to give you a certificate saying that you're doing a great job one thing before I", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-57", "text": "that you're doing a great job one thing before I conclude you started a Hindi news channel I mean you're basically an English journalist you learned how to speak fluently in Hindi though you're a Punjabi but that fluency in Hindi because I grew up in Bihar you forget but your thinking is in English and your writing is in English your journalism is in English was it difficult to adapt to Hindi I mean in our day-to-day our workspace it didn't it didn't matter language is I can speak Bengali okay oh wow okay so then now times now Bangla no too many Firs there I'm sure it will get resolved at some point I guess I like everything gets resolved in life I feel okay so we'll get you back as of now I can only say okay uh Supreme Court no coercive action so at least that was a that was a great thing more than me my kids and my family were feeling I know and what if they do it on a Friday then what will we do", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-58", "text": "do it on a Friday then what will we do over the weekend cook the butter chicken and keep it ready in just in case well they want that uh okay with it or with the thought okay thank you so much for speaking with us navika and we hope to have you back soon really are there still some Secrets left some Secrets will I have friends left after this of course of course you will people look up to you because there's so much to be tell me which one I really want to meet no really because as a as a journalist who get got into television midlife as you yourself are saying you are an inspiration to many journalists women journalists who say yeah I mean it doesn't matter at what point of time we can make a success uh in television channel everybody uh uh you know can make a success of whatever they do uh it depends they have to have their own uh version of success that they are looking for and they have to love what they do just like I and still", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "d63eea40e8c1-59", "text": "to love what they do just like I and still uh in love with my job and my job and my hobby happen to be the same thing I still have the same passion uh sense of humor you have a sense of humor that's great you don't take yourself too seriously you shouldn't I mean I mean here today gone tomorrow nobody will remember asmita please believe you me so this whole Aura of greatness that we assign to ourselves we are not agents of change or anything um please oh that's a lovely one on that note thank you thank you so much navika thank you Smita thank you for having me and two women we really talk too much okay thank you for watching or listening to a i podcast with Smitha prakash do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you heard this namaste foreign [Music]", "source": "W7ej6dvHqZk"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-0", "text": "I am a class traitor on so many levels yeah I have betrayed the IAS I've betrayed the IAS which my father was from I have betrayed um uh hindutva by eating beef apparently yeah I've uh betrayed uh the cultural norms of this country by wearing shorts and a t-shirt okay BJP hasn't moved away from the right-wing narrative in one important Point what made them right wing was Hindu nationalism these savarkar was an intellectual giant of his times yeah what happens with the left in India is they are never going to get political part again for at least another 15-20 years who made Rana are you big entirely the right wing everybody requires validation I'm unique I only seek validation from my dogs and my cats welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today I'm going to be talking about the right-wing narrative now even though since 2014 there is a right-wing government in India the BJP is in power in spite of that the right-wing", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-1", "text": "is in power in spite of that the right-wing narrative remains fractured the BJP wins elections yes the Modi government is unabashedly right-wing why do I say unabashedly that's because the Congress the UPA government could probably have been called left or Center left but in matters of the economy it pursued liberalization process it was Centrist some may even say center right let's come to the BJP it's seen as right-wing because of its obvious right leanings but when it comes to the economy its own supporters call it more left than even the left liberal parties that we have is the left actually liberal and is the right not liberal these conversations become extremely volatile on Twitter and Facebook so to discuss all this I spoke with Abhijit Ayer Mitra now if you follow him his podcast his Twitter Avatar he's there on uh television debates and he has very radical uh view he's seen by the right as one of theirs but at the same time they attack him because", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-2", "text": "theirs but at the same time they attack him because he doesn't do things which the right likes as far as the left is concerned they have dismissed him as a right-wing person with extreme views he has a he's an extreme liberal if I may say because he believes that in in total freedom of thought and expression of thought in an extremely interesting conversation you know he's he's somebody who is written on Military Affairs he's written on on nuclear Affairs he he uh he does a lot of radar imagery research he's a researcher par Excellence but he talks on political views he talks about on social views so he he's a good person to speak to because he's attacked by both the right wing and the left wing in India and of course it made very interesting conversation thank you very much for speaking with us three name business right why you three names first thanks for having me on and it's three names because my mom is the ire in the mix okay and she decided that she", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-3", "text": "ire in the mix okay and she decided that she did the Lion's Share of the work giving birth to me the nine months of tenancy and the delivery so she was like my name is going to come first and it is going to be there okay so so those who don't follow you on social media probably don't know about this I mean you're you your podcast your Twitter avatars and your fights everybody seen you on TV of course but you're this so big nobody there you know uh take you on because then it's like No Holds Barred so Abhijit is to be feared but I also know that you're this nice warm sweet guy also but you don't like giving that image right no no you want to be this nasty snarling taking on everybody yeah I think you know like um Sigmund Freud says everything goes back to your childhood I guess because I was the fat bullied child um I couldn't like fight back against people bashing me up so I came up with verbal", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-4", "text": "bashing me up so I came up with verbal bashing as my defense mechanism that's also your Ayer isn't it this is what she said about Ayers how dashy and all that she must be an ayengar that's why she's taking on the Ayers that's not it what I'm trying to say is that there's this tambram image of being this sharp witty way with words but take down with miti churi is that you no the uh Ayer uh brood has a reputation for working in the shadows and being bureaucrats examine they used to say you know in South block you're either a madrasi or you're a chaprasi and in those days all the madrasis okay right so I think it's quite uh non-air to be like this I think their few to know Ayers were actually very outspoken they tend to work very quiet okay Abhijit you're so right because uh there was this one incident I was traveling with uh a bunch of us journals and there were these senior", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-5", "text": "bunch of us journals and there were these senior uh government officers and the senior most of them was narrating some incident and he said I'm from palghat as a manner of conversation so I said oh there are two other secretaries out here from your village he got so mad at me how dare you say palgar is a village he's like oh my God I made some like you know you prani how dare you say call My Pal guard this place as a village but you know balgart the the really Posh people from palghat we come from Villages you know there's this notion what is palgart is what so Paul card is a district so uh milk uh milk Forest okay uh sorry for it okay okay and I come from a place called pudugramam which is in kolangor okay okay and pudugrama means New Village Pudu is new and grama is Village okay so I'm I am a villager I'm very proud to be a villager oh huh they", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-6", "text": "proud to be a villager oh huh they can't be a more urban I know than you other than probably Mani shankara he's much more urban and urban than me I guess okay so now let's get to the topic I'll keep chatting with you otherwise we today we were supposed to talk about the right wing narrative now you know you your area of expertise is from defense uh you know to nuclear stuff and you talk about foreign policy but you also talk a lot in your podcast in your conversations on television on the right wing narrative now tell me is there a right a right-wing narrative in India and where do you think that you know see the reason I'm asking you this is is there a right-wing narrative in most liberal democracies there is a left-wing narrative and a right-wing narrative and they're you know they they quarrel among each other but there is a narrative in India since 2014 we have supposedly a right-wing government right but there is no", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-7", "text": "supposedly a right-wing government right but there is no right-wing narrative I feel yes the right-wing government wins election that's a different matter but is there a cohesive right-wing narrative as you know do you see that um no there isn't and you know these things are relative so let me give you an example in India we have a saffron socialist government or a saffron communist government uh which because it isn't as loony about uh you know State ownership of private Industries or as um uh willing to turn the Blind Eye to minority disturbances is deemed right wing when you say minority it's religious religious minorities right uh in if you look at the textbook Occidental definition of a right wing the BJP would actually come quite far to the left but because it's all relative where does the median lie in India the center is so far left in India that relatively speaking the BJP is a right-wing party but do they believe in individual liberties no uh do they believe in uh uh", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-8", "text": "liberties no uh do they believe in uh uh a state agency which is anathema to the right fundamentally from a western definition yes they do uh do they believe in uh you know the absolute uh uh authority of the state yes which is necessary in a pre-industrial society but not in a post-industrial society and yet they keep talking as if India has become post-industrial but when you're saying all this you the presumption is that BJP is the is the one who is doing the is one who's molding The Narrative of right wing is that it that BJP not RSS not BHP not anybody else correct because see there is uh if you read nalin Mehta's book uh what happened was you remember 2004 when vajpai G lost the election uh there's a very coherent case to be made that India shining didn't lose them the election it was the RSS that didn't come out and campaign for vajpai that lost them the election uh I think they've learned from that and what", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-9", "text": "uh I think they've learned from that and what modi's done is before the RSS the RSS and BJP numbers were roughly equal today the BJP is 29 times the size of the RSS so even tomorrow if the RSS decides to pull the rug there's nothing say they withdraw support or they don't come out and campaign actively like they didn't in 2004. do you think it will impact on bjp's electoral not at all not anymore and what about the narrative the right narrative is it RSS driven the right narrative as I see it there is no classical right in this country there is no new chanakya in this country chanakya was actually quite right-wing okay yeah he was the father of the right you know this is the same thing loves chanakya everything you love chanakya but they don't follow so for example Buddhism if you look at all early iconography of Buddhism the Buddha was never meant to be represented anthropomorphically you showed either an elephant or a", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-10", "text": "you showed either an elephant or a Lotus or something as this thing but now it's turned to worshiping the Buddha's image right right so they may love chanakya the issue is they tear the arthashastra to bits on everything be it foreign policy made defense policy and especially on economic policy I think chanakya's Atma is in serious turmoil somewhere look looking at what is being propagated in his name so there is no right wing out here you look at political Islam for example yeah that's what I was going to say that while you say this about the right the right which is the Hindu right there is also the Muslim right and the same thing right uh same thing right the same thing in the sense of um the if they go by if these guys don't follow chanakya but idolize chanakya the person here you have uh the Muslim right which talks about the Quran but may not be following everything that the the book says right so here what happens is uh you have what", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-11", "text": "so here what happens is uh you have what you'd call political Islam which is to say the Muslim right which is identarian politics which is loved by the left globally the left loves political Islam they haven't met somebody from the Muslim Brotherhood or a political Islam party who they didn't consider a fellow traveler right now for example I would consider him a political right a Muslim political right but he will be welcome in any left-wing publication anywhere either in India or abroad right so what makes you left-wing then what is the left what is the right is that why you think that even in in Western liberal Western democracies there's not much support coming out for uh Iranian women who are pulling off the hijabs there's this very uh weird Silence from the so-called left liberals not just in India but in countries where the the Muslim population is low even there so even there I want you to contrast two things Iran hijab protests get much more press traction than the uh car driving or", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-12", "text": "much more press traction than the uh car driving or hijab protest in Saudi Arabia ever got and there's a reason for it the overwhelming part of the minority electorate and European countries is Sunni okay they would much rather pay attention to a Shia anti hijab protest than paid and remember overwhelmingly when you look at it a Muslim minority in Europe and America a Sunni minority in Europe and America is one of the most economically depressed sections of society like take Britain in terms of its the Indian subcontinent technically we were all one country at the same at one point of time Hindus have the lowest levels of incarceration lowest jail population lowest violent crimes lowest arrests highest income group pakistanis and bangladeshis are the exact opposite lowest income groups overwhelmingly blue-collar disproportionate in the amount of them who are in jail and they form the Back Bay the backbone of the labor party right so there is a fundamental thing where you appease your vote bank which is why you", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-13", "text": "where you appease your vote bank which is why you know it is political there's never a even standard applied to everybody there's not for example Ukraine you have videos every day coming out showing you how Neo-Nazi the Ukrainian military is you know for the first two months of the war there wasn't a single image that the Ukrainian military put out that did not have a Neo-Nazi or Nazi connotation to it I'm going to bring you back wait wait but they are liberals and the BJP is fascist I'm going to come back to this where you know we were talking about who who is the the speaker for the Hindu narrative or the not the Hindu narrative who's The Speaker for the right-wing narrative in India let's first let's figure that out then go to the uh the Muslim right-wing narrative when we talk about the Hindu right-wing narrative is it Narendra Modi is it the gaurakshaks is it you know is it the RSS who who do", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-14", "text": "it you know is it the RSS who who do we say okay because what you are saying is that the BJP has moved away from the right wing narrative so then who is it um so the BJP hasn't moved away from the right-wing narrative in one important Point what made them right-wing was Hindu nationalism and Hindu nationalism was dependent on overcoming caste because caste elections in this country were one on caste and as long as those caste divisions State Hindu consolidation was impossible which is why you have that caste consolidation so in that they're actually very right-wing the economic right-wing who are the speakers for an economic right-wing hardly anyone today at most say Jagdish bhagavati the the UPA was supposed to be left-wing but when it came to uh economic economics they came right they were and the BJP which is right wing when it comes to their economic policies their own people castigate the party to say that we have turned left wing correct but tell me is", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-15", "text": "we have turned left wing correct but tell me is it economic left because they're until their scheme is it it's I mean many say it's socialism with an Indian name that's all basically you look at everything they do so there's two three layers to their economic policies right on one hand you have the very admirable uh denationalization or the privatization of Air India which should be lauded thank God I expect a lot more to happen uh you but on the other hand you have the return of a license not a license Raj but a baburaj and how I think babus have been empowered like nobody's business and remember the baboon is essentially a rent-seeking system right it's a rentier state of the worst possible kind they make Russians Saudi Arabia look like uh raging liberal democracy about comparison you don't say that it's the iron frame which is holding India in place exactly I want to ask that too you you're the ultimate privileged brat who is from the from the bureaucracy Bond", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-16", "text": "who is from the from the bureaucracy Bond so you understand the bureaucracy I am I am a class traitor on so many levels yeah I have betrayed the IAS I've betrayed the IAS which my father was from I have betrayed um uh hindutva by eating beef apparently yeah I've uh betrayed uh the cultural norms of this country by wearing shorts and a t-shirt okay and uh I I have betrayed the ethos of this country by being Occidental in my Outlook I am a lecture Trader at so many levels and what Putra are you I prefer to think of myself you know there's that um the thing from the upanishads and now here you are quoting now now what do I do if you start spouting Vedas and you starts us next you're going to spout Vedic philosophy and you're going to get everybody angry that you this beef eating Veda spouting person so I I just do everything I have an issue see I'm not ideological because", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-17", "text": "I have an issue see I'm not ideological because for me ideology is outsourcing your brain to somebody why should I I need to follow where evidence leads me so in some things I'm quite left-wing now you are branded as right-wing sorry you can call yourself left wing your branded is right wing that's why you're here to explain it identify is right yes you identify as right wing now why does the right wing seek validation from the left all the time okay a severe inferiority complex their education isn't good enough uh when they get money they don't value um a Humanities education at all and I think that's the Indian mindset you know uh actually Gober has higher value than Humanities graduate in India they never study the humanities and they don't realize that historically it is always the humanities that has controlled the sciences and not science that has controlled Humanity you tell me one scientist whoever became president you're now getting too deep for me but it's the truth get to the point Humanities", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-18", "text": "but it's the truth get to the point Humanities is how to control the human mind okay science is about controlling nature and the laws of nature humanity is about controlling the human mind the the right in this country does not invest in education they don't invest in research they don't invest in archiving they don't invest in human beings right that's why all the think tanks in this country are all left all the media is left um well the think tanks aren't really left the think tanks are non-committal but you tell me the well-funded ones are left leaning uh that's that's a whole different thing that's a left ecosystem okay it doesn't mean they're particularly perspicacious because the Indian left also has certain very severe problems okay we will get to that soon okay but let's talk about the right word leaning ones in my experience think tanks have a mix of both right and left okay uh but mostly think tanks in India seldom do any research they do events uh events are not research you know you look", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-19", "text": "events uh events are not research you know you look at Western think tanks I mean for all your criticisms of them that they're ideological whatever whatever they become ideological uh they actually invest hugely in going to the places they study sitting and talking to people on the ground meeting people doing hard painstaking ground research whether it's crackery or not you can decide later but in my experience ground research always yields gold right let me give you a simple example with me do you remember when uh doklam was happening in 2017. um there was a lot of stories coming out except nobody from the Indian side was going to do club right uh it curiously happened that the end of my North Korea trip was also the beginning of my Tibet trip so I happened to be in lhasa and I wanted to be in lhasa and I took the car went past shigatse and got very close to doklam say about 100 kilometers away and you know I was looking at because when", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-20", "text": "away and you know I was looking at because when you're coming to Chicago you can see the airport formations when you're leaving last time coming into lhasa uh you can see the aircraft parked water the military aircraft parked on the tarmac what are the uh armored vehicles in The marshalling Yards around uh lhasa and things like that and it simply didn't add up with what we were Hearing in the Indian press there was no sense of urgency or alarm on the Chinese side and they were actually quite surprised in Beijing by what was happening in India because they hadn't expected that kind of a response from India now that is called primary research where you're actually going into the middle of a uh this thing and looking at it now very frequently we don't have the money to go there right so at least look at satellite imagery then the satellite imagery doesn't tell you the whole story but it can give you about 60 70 of the story at least who in India does that Indians", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-21", "text": "the story at least who in India does that Indians I mean you look at all these big houses the media houses they have money to do you know Leadership Summit uh uh uh uh your majesty Summit your Excellency Summit uh basketball player uh tennis player this they'll bring they don't have money to spend on their main thing which is to get you information which is satellite imagery or send a correspondent out there we now that we're talking about media the media you know uh internationally speaking like in most uh Western liberal democracies the media has generally been uh left-leaning right even in India the media has been uh left-leaning it's it's not comfortable with a right-leaning government which comes in uh even when it does come in the bureaucracy sees it as an interloper the media tends to think that they are not for free thought and it's to rashtravadi and you know it doesn't it doesn't um Fosters free speech and you know the left liberal views or whatever but", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-22", "text": "and you know the left liberal views or whatever but uh the the left ecosystem now says that the media is completely sold out to the right do you see that do you see that happening in no I see Market forces at work out here you know you see the media landscape mirroring the political landscape out here right now or always uh always okay it's not just now okay it's always been that that the most popular government Indians generally tend to be very pro-government it doesn't matter which government is in par the government is usually a reflection of popularity in this case right okay and uh I'll get in trouble so I'm not going to say that but in that sense so you will have uh so they're two parts to your question first why is the media like Academia and think tankery so left-wing it's because the humanities has executed a complete institutional capture and a mind capture of the humanities okay so you know your if you're studying humanities it's fundamentally a left-wing indoctrination camp right", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-23", "text": "it's fundamentally a left-wing indoctrination camp right you can't get away from that hmm so the people who managed to get away will be you can literally count them on the tips of your fingers because it's that one person in a hundred who has the brains to say there's a whole world outside because even the terminology right abhijeet when you were in college and uh you know it was always Looney right which was used right it's used so liberally Looney right I was in fact there was one day I was talking about like you know now this whole thing about bhagat Singh bhagat Singh everybody's talking about bhagat Singh but when you were studying bhagat Singh in school and college and I'm talking about Urban centers you but you our history book said extremists and moderates the cbse boards were you'd studied more about the moderates correct extremist was a three mark question so let's face it if you are not a Humanity student are you going to study about", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-24", "text": "not a Humanity student are you going to study about the three mark question or about the moderates then you studied more about the moderates right because those were longer answers did you study about uh you know I'm again I want to make it clear I'm talking about our history texts which were of the central Board of secondary education not the state boards so you know your shivaji Rana Pratap or the Chola chalukya's uh pandas you know all this in cbse were two mark one more question but when you talked about the mughals was about 15 mark question 10 mark question and multiple choice question of uh or you wanted jahangir or you wanted akbar's architecture or you know so that whole thing was there and this was relegated again you're talking about Academia now the Academia is also ah left wing oriented right the left narrative we've talked about think tanks we've talked to talked about media now the Academia so Academia will especially the humanities Academia is always going", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-25", "text": "will especially the humanities Academia is always going to be left-wing because that institutional capture was uh affected almost a century back uh you know what Lenin used to say was every idea is worth a thousand pages of theory so they will come up with mumbo jumbo and sometimes it's valid and mostly it's overwhelmingly mumbo-jumbo they will break it down into its constituent parts and they will create the entire volume of work about it when you've saturated the literature with your literature doesn't matter if it's good or bad but if 99 of the available literature is left-wing then the people reading it will also turn out to be left-wing so 99 of the people reading that 99 turn out to be left-wing then the job market gets saturated with that they create their own validation circles that if you're right-wing you're not really you don't really know the subject this person knows the subject and so it became it becomes a complete validation citation and Views and employment capture the same way in which you know", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-26", "text": "and employment capture the same way in which you know Halal certification has led to a complete a dispossession of dalit butchers in this country uh and so badly so that uh products run even by Hindu sons and things like that apply for Halal certification for vegetarian products right so that's what the export Market mostly right right whatever it's Market forces as you it's Market forces yeah so you have this fundamental problem that when you have a certification agency you then start getting monopolies for example nobody can make champagne unless the French certify you as a docg champagne producer growing it in Champagne you can produce sparkling wine but you can't produce champagne but now it's all changing that I'm not talking about products or the Halal thing right now I'm just talking about the right wing now deciding like the Muslim right wing is now having a rethink the recent you know this the the pasandam Muslims coming out and saying that we do not uh you know we we support the uh", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-27", "text": "do not uh you know we we support the uh the uh the Crackdown on PFI there is a rethink among educated Muslims who feel that there was an elite which was speaking on our behalf and they were not speaking what we wanted they many don't agree with it right they may not agree with what just one group of Muslims have to say similarly uh the right wing uh Hindu narrative is also that you know what has been said so far was the left capture of History we want to rewrite it we want but then there is a pushback to say you can't rewrite history now the same thing like we've talked about Academia we've talked about media we've talked about think tanks the same thing is happening with Bollywood that Bollywood there was this whole movement against Bollywood that and this ban certain actors for what they have said it sounds a little bizarre sometimes that you go to that extreme that you're Banning an actor who just said that I had he liked beef and he", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-28", "text": "just said that I had he liked beef and he said it several years ago but there is this anger against a certain section of Bollywood that they had captured the narrative do you think that that is like valid that that angst that you're seeing spilling out now it's a reaction it's a reaction to uh the left cancer culture remember the left started this cancer culture uh you're a bigot therefore we won't platform you yeah uh they of course did it very differently right uh the left in India has its own problems because they've uh if you wear a lefty uh they would promote any mediocrity any F grader any third grader so what's happened is that all you need to do to become a serious public intellectual in India is stock left wing garbage and you can be absolute rubbish and you'll become a public intellectual you'll be labeled a puppy in Crown Market where raw mango uh cotton sarees and have at least three books from bhari Sons right in", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-29", "text": "at least three books from bhari Sons right in your left arm and a jhola in your right arm I'm talking about the women and as far as the men uh Fab India kurta I'm just talking superficially Fab India kurta uh and uh nehru jacket nehru jacket um and a slightly crumpled uh disheveled look about you and uh sit in triveni and sip tea from [Music] thing and you've given the impression that you are a left liberal now comes the spouting now you tell me what is outing of the left now comes the spouting where you can spout any kind of rubbish and as long as it suits their agenda they'll Crown you a an intellectual but they're paying a very heavy price for it which they don't realize they've been wiped out from PA you look today before uh say the Congress let's assume for this particular argument the Congress is left and the BJP is right right if this was the Spectrum the center was here the BJP occupied here", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-30", "text": "Spectrum the center was here the BJP occupied here the Congress was here and the left parties were here today the median has shifted so much that the left space is only this much the Congress is competing the cannibalizing CPI cpim votes this is the space the the bjpa by moving left nobody is there to outflank it on the right but on that left that you're showing that spectrum is also clawing at that left is that kejriwal and ahmadmi party but it didn't work for him but kg while see the thing is kejriwal is an opportunist which I'm perfectly fine with I say this as a compliment I don't mean it as an insert I would much rather have somebody like kejriwal who's willing to toy around with the right and play the right game huh than in ideological left and so what you've had is diminishing returns on the left you tell me one word uh does she come in that that small spectrum of left she comes in a regional", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-31", "text": "small spectrum of left she comes in a regional identity it's not a economic identity out there she got rid of the left and she came in she outlifted them she outlifted the left isn't it she didn't become Centrist or right no she just yeah that's it with a different name so you basically have a left party with a different name there basically basically she was the left wing of the congress party anyway yeah right okay uh so what happens with the left in India is they are never going to get political part again for at least another 15-20 years as far as I can tell be it monarchs in Europe or be it Communists in the USSR they used to Dole out money liberally to the Arts to literature to Academia to write their hegeographies okay right King John was actually a bad King John of Robin Hood Fame was actually a very good King and good King Richard was actually a very bad King and yet history will teach you that Jon was the", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-32", "text": "and yet history will teach you that Jon was the villain and Richard was the hero okay whereas all the economic records and all the other records will show you that was actually not the case King John was actually fighting for the rights of the people and the Barons took away the Magna Carta was actually a kind of re-enslavement of the people in a cells but uh but remember there was already an ecosystem and they were considered for giving you validation it and it's not just semi-literate people who require validation everybody requires validation I'm unique I only seek validation from my dogs and my cats I don't seek human validation that's why left-wing they validate each other even if they don't agree with each other yes they validate right exactly like uh you know I mean when we talk about authors in the left wing you can if you have arundhati Roy extreme left gandhian with guns and all that but who wasn't considered left he was considered right at one point of time shifted and made", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-33", "text": "right at one point of time shifted and made because you know at some point of time there were these right-wing authors columnists writers journalists who you know disliked Modi so they become left-wing right they move they jumped ship and Pratap Banu Mehta I'm sorry but I feel that that's what happened with him so you hit the nail on the head there is no left wing and right wing in India there is the gravy train wing and there is the anarth link okay explain this now okay what you call the left wing in India is actually highly privileged pricks who all come from very privileged families who essentially create a I'm sorry to use this word but a circle jerk uh of each other providing violation oh this is the new upcoming scholar of India he or she is the ultimate last word on this it is the gravy train Wing they've been brought up on state larges they have been brought up which every King historically has done the chorus did it the pandyas did", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-34", "text": "has done the chorus did it the pandyas did it the pallavas did it the mughals did it that you get poets and things like that to write hoshanas about you uh you get authors to write what a great king I mean after all was uh composed by somebody for someone the shaname was composed uh for someone by giving money to the author right so every everything even Shakespeare was like that everything yeah this government does not provide a gravy train you're supposed to do everything in so this is that swam sevak uh mentality right so the right wing doesn't doesn't provide the gravy for the gravy train so there's no narrative that's what you're saying correct okay uh if you are not going to give state largesse if you are not going to give institutional validation and the problem is the people who are in position to give institutional validation desperately seek validation from the left hmm right they will go to Every left event when invited uh just to score you know oh uh he", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-35", "text": "invited uh just to score you know oh uh he uh they essentially fit into the left's need for a token right winger to show over representative it was like that show you know that but one second even though the left wing will invite that one token right winger God help that one left Winger who gets invited to a right-wing event they are booed they are shamed they are called names because the right wing won't accept a slight soft right wing also they you have to be ultra Ultra right wing to get accepted if you are slightly like even if you're seen in the company of a Centrist not acceptable so why is that you know that intolerance in the right wing I'm sorry to use this word because the right wing hates that word being used but it is but it is of course it is look the right thing you have to understand what is the right thing in India most of them are socially upwardly mobile yuppies uh the first generation Rich they haven't had a terribly great education there", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-36", "text": "Rich they haven't had a terribly great education there are of course notable exceptions to the rule but overwhelmingly uh they are socially upwardly mobile and this is where Huntington makes a very very interesting case in The Clash of civilizations on how emerging cultures emphasize their Roots nationalism and things like that so this is a group that is not willing to tolerate and it's so bad they don't even read I mean how are you going to oppose an idea if you're not willing to read the books of the other side I you know for example I read wire and scroll a lot because I need to know what the other side is saying okay but the left doesn't read any right they they call it oh no no no no no no no they trust me they go over it with a fine tooth comb and they diss it they diss it when required mostly if you're if they find you particularly dangerous they ignore you okay the left's method of ignoring people is if they find you a", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-37", "text": "method of ignoring people is if they find you a threat they ignore you so that you will never get any publicity okay the rights method is they find you a threat even if you're a low level useless threat like ranayub is the biggest transparently fraud journalist around she has never produced a single iota of proof for anything she's ever written madhu Trehan gave her a platform gave her a platform on news laundry saying we'll publish your tapes and she said no it's actually you know Shoma Chaudhary and uh own it they said no no she's free to publish it she still hasn't published it now you say you you need to tell me Washington Post doesn't have uh the money or the resources to catalog the entire 600 odd tapes that she has of course not she never produces an iota of proof for anything she says but who made Rana are you big entirely the right wing Abhishek is the left wing is it Justified the right wing says that the left wing is", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-38", "text": "Justified the right wing says that the left wing is very intolerant of any opinion other than their own uh voice the left accuses the right of the same thing so tell me where and does the left wing do the left wing authors think tankers media do they do they cannibalize on each other as much as the right wing does no so like I said it's the gravy train Wing generally and what happens is there actually if this is the space the academic space or the profit making space from books or whatever they account for maybe this much but they occupy this much of the space right so as much as they cannibalize votes votes their cannibalizing each other but in terms of academic economic uh uh teaching opportunities or whatever or think tanking opportunities there's actually a vast field for them to play about for the left you mean for the left uh is in fact the more you spread an intolerance narrative the more their space increases the second thing about left intolerance is they are very", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-39", "text": "the second thing about left intolerance is they are very tolerant of representational diversity and extremely intolerant of intellectual diversity they substitute you can have a trans a CIS uh uh assist trans uh lady who identifies as a as the uh uh uh plastic casing on a copper wire they can have a uh a uh I don't know an Eskimo uh Aboriginal uh uh Bedouin person uh and things like that who will all be saying the exact same thing okay so they go in for diversity of color diversity of caste diversity of class it's tokenism but all to trumpet the same line and I would much rather have the right in India which is so much more cacophonous because remember on the right technically if you're looking you can't understand anything because of that cacophony no you can't understand not because of the cacophony you can't understand because mostly the right are very crude and unsophisticated and unread but there are very notable exceptions so remember we", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-40", "text": "unread but there are very notable exceptions so remember we savarkar was an intellectual giant of his times yeah and he shows you the three strands that have always existed within say the hindutva narrative one is the savarkar branch which is extremely Progressive yeah he talks about urbanization right but find me the right wing guys who will talk about them they will not because do you know I I've never met a right-wing guy who is a red savarkar most people haven't even read foreign these people the traditionalists have lost every single electoral battle both outside and even within the hindustwavadi fold and the RSS represents the middle which was going too Progressive calm down a bit you guys we don't really want to associate with you because if you think caste is important then stay away from us so they came up with this socially conservative consensus which was we are all for change when Society is ready for it for example homosexuality Congress because it had to cater to certain Christian and Muslim groups", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-41", "text": "had to cater to certain Christian and Muslim groups when it was not in court they would support decriminalization of homosexuality the moment it would go to court again they would oppose it whereas with this government it was look we're not going to talk about it openly but fine go ahead and decriminalize it right and then what's happened is I think they were particularly upset from very Progressive uh no it's typical RSS we don't have an opinion on this Society is that's fine I'm perfectly fine with that yeah right uh in the left wing though they're supposed to be liberals you have to go to the right school right College uh born to the right parents somewhat be the right cast and you need to tick all those boxes but on the right side you don't need to on the right you don't need that in fact if you have gone to those schools and colleges negative against you if you speak English it's a negative against you okay so uh so the left actually has a lot of", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-42", "text": "so uh so the left actually has a lot of classism in it okay and cast is a minute okay are some of the most horrifically Caster statements I've heard have come from the left now there's also this belief that um you know this the the whole uh right-wing narrative it it's based on this concept that a strong nationhood feeling that's the only thing that will bond us that uh and that strong nationhood originates from our Villages and urban centers are the corruption of that nationhood sentiment uh is that right is that wrong do you think that that narrative needs to go I call it the Isis mentality and I'll tell you why all self-confidence civilizations look to the Future all inferiority complex ridden societies that are not successful look to an imagined past for you know obscurantists Muslims it's the rashidun caliphate for uh uh muja Hindus it's Ram Raja muja Hindus now you're confusing me I'm very sadharan prani it's a Basics it's important", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-43", "text": "sadharan prani it's a Basics it's important and Hindu yeah I got that but why do you call them that because they're just they they're except in terms of physical violence which is to say beheading or bombing or whatever they're an exact mirror image off what they hate um and what you find with these mujah Hindus is they imagine this past oh you know we never used to eat I'm sorry to bring it back to beef but beef well we never used to eat beef you look at bibilal and nobody can accuse Bibi Lal of being a left finger yeah you bibilal's findings his own writing on the excavations at harappa and mohenjo daro the maximum number of butchered bones was that of Boss indicus not even boss Taurus it was in foreign cows that they ate they ate Indian cows so the fundamental differences between a Hindu extremist a Hindu extremist will fundamentally always be a lot more tolerant what they insist on curiously", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-44", "text": "lot more tolerant what they insist on curiously enough is direct from the ramayana it's your Agni pariksha you have to pass through all these things because you're going to get me sued I'm going to move on no no but they're actually following the ramayana we should appreciate them they are true they are following the book to the word in terms of their fundamentals everybody on this show now just please tell me where give me an answer see now those who oppose the right wing another question is those who oppose the right wing both Hindu and Muslim feel that this the Hindu right which has now you know got a government in place they will push India back it's a different matter that what Mr Modi and the BJP says is that we're building more flyovers we're opening up our markets we are giving jobs we are doing this more ports more uh Railways all that connectivity all that is going on more tourism uh we are going to be vishwa Guru that's a different point", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-45", "text": "to be vishwa Guru that's a different point all together but the left-wing thinks that with the right-wing government uh it will push us back towards a kind of a stagnation or even push us back because the the ideas that the right wing believes in goes back to The Vedic times so how how valid is that fear that they have and do is is it a fear or is it just a tactic so it's a tactic it's a tactic because I can tell you that this government doesn't actually believe in much I would say they're mostly about 10 percent genius inspiration uh 30 percent mediocrity and the remaining 60 income your Funda it's not Funda let's look at it let's look at it so the abrogation of 370 Shear genius yeah okay the way it was done constitutionally valid everything was sure genius right the rest so for example uh uh you know uh State investment in roads uh airports etc etc this is what every government should be doing technically where does the incompetence", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-46", "text": "government should be doing technically where does the incompetence angle come in South Asia we know that the building of infrastructure does not automatically lead to growth right and the clearest example is how none of those people who built the Delhi gurgaon Highway were able to recoup their money from the uh toll booths and things like that right and the reason is there is too much regulation there is too much Court interference too much everything adani is building ports and airports everywhere if there was no money if it was not lucrative so the money doesn't come from actually building the port the money didn't come out from the money didn't come from Delhi airport the money came from that Development Area Telecom right so so the money does not come directly so if it wasn't lucrative why would adani be building airports why would Ambani be in Telecom and you know I mean it is lucrative that's why we've got more millionaires we've got more unicorns you know we're doing well as as", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-47", "text": "more unicorns you know we're doing well as as far as the most even though Rahul Gandhi will say and the left wing says it's crony capitalism my whole issue is there is no suitable it's all valuation games happening with the unicorns okay adani and Ambani like I said the money will not come from the port the money will come from all the extra land which will be converted and this has been the thing in India for a very long time that it is the real estate that you squat on allow to appreciate and make buildings out of and sell residential plots and things like that that actually end up making the money we think that infrastructure leads to growth growth is a very complex feeling it happened in Korea infrastructure grow because you got your regulatory mechanisms your judicial mechanisms all of that right here I think there is a lot to be said about the economic literacy of the Judiciary there's a lot to be said about the economic literacy of the government itself you", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-48", "text": "about the economic literacy of the government itself you now you're wading into territory where I will become the villain because as far as as our uh honorable Supreme Court is concerned I am the villain media is the biggest biggest crook in this country we are worse than whatever you want to say now we are worse than what did you use that word we are worse than anybody we have you know we are the bad bad people responsible for every ill I only like villains I never like Heroes okay in every movie we are Prem Chopra Helen yes Arch villains okay true arch villain are mogambo level or you know Darth Vader level and things so we are that we are that Darth Vaders we are the Darth via the darkness so please don't say anything about the Judiciary in my show okay so now you're talking about foreign um left liberal we talked about it now this sudden uh you know India has shied away when I say India I mean", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-49", "text": "India has shied away when I say India I mean Indian government Indian government has shied away from openly taking on the foreign media whatever happened was like Ministry of external Affairs secretary level Banda would call up the BBC and say what the why have you reported like this on Kashmir uh you should report like this that it stayed at that level it would never escalated to the political uh class taking on foreign media but now you're seeing a different uh India I don't know whether it is a confident India or whether it's a different media policy but taking on the foreign media special actually in their own land saying two newspapers you know that's what Jay Shankar had said right now so calling their Bluff so you know you guys have been calling their Bluff on social media a number of people from the right wing have been incessantly saying that what the right wing specially what the left liberal uh media did during kovid foreign media reported during covet was wrong absolutely wrong a number of people did", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-50", "text": "was wrong absolutely wrong a number of people did that because they genuinely believed in it right that it was it was not done but the government never said anything and even if they did it was a muted voice now the government is like we don't want to wait for it to happen we are taking you on so I think we're basing this on just one thing which is what Jay Shankar said in Washington and even that was a rhetorical comeback it wasn't a systematic factual comeback right now if you remember I think it was the independent and the guardian when uh 370 got abrogated in Kashmir the only person that both newspapers could find one month apart in their reporting was the exact same guy with the exact same wounds and they tried passing it off as a different guy okay uh there was that lady Nicola Kareem from the BBC and one independent key journalist imagine one month apart they can only find one victim of brutality that too Anonymous who has", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-51", "text": "one victim of brutality that too Anonymous who has the exact same wound pattern uh you know I saw that yes you had put it up but you know going and saying ah you know Washington Post uh is this on New York Times is this so when you do these takedowns I mean just to uh take down the way a takedown has to happen is you need to have somebody like uh who did vajpay have promote Mahajan right yes would sit down there he would take you down that day then and there Point by point you think that this government is not doing that the social media team of the BJP is really sharp no the the social media team is not the government okay yeah see the government has to do that yes okay right there's no point sitting around and gripping about it later and that to a mesoteric way without naming them what happened was you know when that when the Indian cricketer was trolled um by these Pakistani handles which pretended to be Indian handles and said", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-52", "text": "handles which pretended to be Indian handles and said you're a kalistani and you know that's why you dropped the catch and all those things which are happening it happened close to midnight at that time and Indian media you know some some maybe innocent I'm not saying that they wanted to believe it or anything but when some of these Indian media handles saw that they believed them to be Indian handles correct and they started you know self-lagellation it started apologizing on behalf of Indians saying this is very wrong and things it was only some do-gooder around 4am or something who turned around and said brought out the back of those uh you know the found out the IP addresses and now these are not Indian handles they're pretending to be Indian so 4 AM that happens now by uh by that time the midnight and post midnight websites of the newspapers there are interns on the job or whatever Indian uh they've taken those things and then the headlines have gone on the portals already", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-53", "text": "then the headlines have gone on the portals already Indians troll uh cricketer right and call him kalistani and then that went now what happens is the websites uh or these uh you know these um newspapers who are sitting in America in Europe and things like they don't have reporters in India and even if they have they have one reporter who's sleeping it's it's their Nini time they're sleeping so what do those portals do without calling their reporter they pick from these Indian websites and they copy paste and put out there and then it goes front pages in some by the time India wakes up or Indian government handles wake up to bust this fake news almost 12 hours have gone by fake news has circulated Everywhere by this time this is what I'm trying to do and the retraction never happens have you noticed hmm this is how you create citation Loops the left is very good at this right the retraction will be one news item by that time the news item's been bombarded", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "4df588bf31fd-54", "text": "item by that time the news item's been bombarded most will not retract so the problem with the left again it's statistics when your entire media has been brought up in the humanities which is already saturated 99 by the left then 99 of your graduates are going to be left-wing and that's the institutional capture that's happened in the west is where it's a globe remember this is what Manu Joseph says the left is global the right wing is always local which is why you can never build International things so whenever we talk about the right-wing narrative we end up talking about the BJP don't don't talk about it the the Muslim narrative doesn't come in which also has a very strong right wing and a left wing in that too so that we will leave for another conversation thank you so much for speaking with me thank you for listening in whichever platform you saw or listen to this please like or subscribe I am Smitha prakash signing off namaste foreign [Music]", "source": "kBZaiIjCVPo"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-0", "text": "in the BJP nitish ji was himself uncomfortable and was being treated in a manner that made it clear to him who's the boss Mr naren modi's strategy to begin with in his Ascent to the Pinnacle of the BJP was to First influence the middle class I am not in favor of mere Jordan politics what we need is not arithmetic Unity what we need is organic Unity I had once a boss in mea who tell me on the intercom I say old chap there is an HMT type of guy here then it's called umt Uh do medium type hey Jai Hind welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today's episode is my conversation with Pawan Varma Mr Varma has been a former bureaucrat he was in the external Affairs Ministry held very important positions and ambassador he's also an author who's written a variety of a book on variety of subjects he's been a politician joined nitish's jdu and then moved over to the TMC uncomfortable with", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-1", "text": "and then moved over to the TMC uncomfortable with nitish's U-Turn when he joined the BJP or joined an alliance with the BJP to be specific is also an essential uh essentially a Delhi boy he um he typifies what is known as latians Delhi or uh or what is known as the Khan Market gang so I spoke about all that I spoke about politics and he discussed with me what it meant to make the transition from bureaucracy to politics uh he spoke about being of hindutva of what it means for a sanatan Hindu or an Hindu uh to you know be to face this hindutva Onslaught as he terms it and then to spoke about bureaucracy the letters which are being written about by bureaucrats against the government for the government uh a myriad of issues so it's an interesting conversation about what it means for grassroot level politics versus a kind of an elite view about what grassroot level politics is about but he remains grounded in spite", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-2", "text": "is about but he remains grounded in spite of being from Elite Delhi bhavanji thank you very much for speaking with me on a i podcast with Smith Africa pleasure is mine it's it's an absolute pleasure and honor to have you here I've known we've known each other for so long when I was cutting my teeth in journalism you were in the Foreign Service and very kindly you used to give me information which was you know which I could use in my stories and uh the beat was different the foreign office beat was different television was like so small and we were so few of us in doing television but you took to the medium very easily uh you know even then though you uh I guess when you joined the service there was just print not much of Television so anyway and you you know after an illustrious career in uh in the Foreign Service you decided to make the shift and join politics so before I get on to today's India and today's politics I want to know from", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-3", "text": "India and today's politics I want to know from you what prompted you why did you move from like you know a steady way of life which bureaucracy is to the tumult of politics well you know I I greatly enjoyed the Foreign Service and let me reiterate what the great pleasure it is to talk to you as you said we've known each other for so long not only you but Sanjeev your husband your father-in-law your father Mr Ramon Rao who was very close to me so I enjoyed the Foreign Service but I felt I wanted a larger canvas to be better able in my small way to contribute to bigger issues ah so I was toying with the idea of public life for a while and I was about to take the step but it so happened uh I mean as a coincidence that Mr nitish Kumar the chief minister of Bihar visited Bhutan when I was Ambassador there and we got on very well and one thing led to another and he said to me", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-4", "text": "one thing led to another and he said to me I've told him I would like to work with you although I must confess at that time I had offers also from the congress party I had friends in the BJP the late Arun jaitley was my class fellow since school college law faculty okay so we were very good friends you were in Saint Stephen's I was in Saint Stephen's he went to sriram we were both Debaters we used to debate against each other then we both joined law fact together and we were in the same class in Saint Xavier school okay so but I joined nitish Kumar uh and made the transition to politics he was very kind in the sense that he made me a cabinet minister straight away with as advisor the chief minister and later sent me to the Raj Sabha and I've never regretted the decisions with that but that was the main motivation I must say that in a certain way I was already in public life because of the many book side books right so", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-5", "text": "life because of the many book side books right so I was not entirely a conventional bureaucrat right and so it seemed logical to take this step to see how I could in my small way control but the books that you have written uh that wasn't that wasn't hardcore hardcore politics you know it was I mean from writing about the middle class to writing about the Kama Sutra you written the the canvas is vast but it's not it's not about uh say like maybe you know suppose it had been the nuxel issue or caste or something like that which was Hardcore politics you didn't write about that actually the service rules don't permit you correct uh to write on politics per se but I must say that I push those Horizons almost to the limit for instance apart from ghale my biography Krishna and poetry then translated yes which was a very warm relationship but uh like my book The Great Indian middle class now it is not written with the political stance but it encompasses so many", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-6", "text": "with the political stance but it encompasses so many political points of view similarly my book being Indian which was a hard look at who we are had an entire chapter the first chapter on Power and our obsession with power so there were transitional comments on politics but I didn't write about it directly so but those books fortunately did well I was in the public realm I was speaking on contemporary issues because of some of them right and so I think that in some form I was already a public in public life I made a transition to direct politics when I resigned from this so tell me what what was it that didn't work uh with you and the jdu I mean there was there was that letter that you had written about uh about how it didn't sit well when uh nitish joined hands with the BJP and especially on CAA and NRC I saw that letter that you had written so was it just that or were you just uncomfortable with the way nitish had made a u-turn at that stage I", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-7", "text": "nitish had made a u-turn at that stage I think it was a combination of both uh nitish ji when I joined him was a member of the ND Mr Narendra Modi had not yet come on the scene and with that BJP he seemed to be comfortable and you were comfortable I knew it will be very vajpayee very well so very well and and I think I joined him for what he had done in Bihar so I mean there were two aspects to it then he decided to take a strong stand against the uh Ascent of Mr Narendra Modi as the leader of the BJP and we were with him he suffered for it we suffered for it he in the 2014 elections as you know the jdu just got two seats in the Parliamentary elections when nitish ji resigned we were with him and Mr Manji became chief minister and we remained with him on principle when you say suffered you mean electoral electoral electorally suffered for that choice I mean it", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-8", "text": "electorally suffered for that choice I mean it would have been perhaps easier in terms of pure expediency or utility to be with the rising star and be a part of the NDA at that time ah but that was his decision and we backed it on grounds of ideology and principle and then uh when he made that you turn to the BJP now they were close to five years of him being a very vocal about why and his uh his criticism of Narendra Modi so this overnight switch was quite inexplicable to me frankly you none of you had any inkling that he was mulling over this move no actually the truth is and I don't know if it was intentional I was a National General Secretary of the jdu and I have checked with my colleagues the four or five others who were on this top executive position in the party none of them seemed to know it seemed to have been a decision worked out in Patna and perhaps he took that decision from the best intentions but", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-9", "text": "perhaps he took that decision from the best intentions but it was ideologically such a wolf face I mean such a U-turn that I was uncomfortable but I was with him still because in many ways there is a great personal affection between me and nitish she has been very kind to me and also his personal Integrity his administrative Acumen his intellectual leadings these were things that bonded us together but on the caanrc and I am not saying My Views are correct I know in India there are two views on the subject I know your views are different from mine I said that for him to approve of the CAA NRC ah because the jdu had supported that in Parliament and so I voiced my opposition and it became that he I was expelled from the party uh did that hurt does it does it bother no it did hurt because it was a very cherished and treasured relationship because the way I know you you would have chosen to get out rather than wait to be expelled because that is something", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-10", "text": "rather than wait to be expelled because that is something a hardcore politician does take a stand wait to be expelled and then move over to you see this seemed to be at that time no meeting point and I was seeing and now nitish ji acknowledges himself that as in the BJP nitish ji was himself uncomfortable and was being treated in a manner that made it clear to him who's the boss in fact when the first time Narendra Modi came and it was on a public rally in Patna and nitish she made one request and he said Patna University you know and the Prime Minister listened to it gave no assurance and nothing happened so I mean these kind of things were happening and I was uncomfortable with it because I also saw nitish ji as a leader in his own right and he used to be the leader was the largest party I mean the BJP that's one thing about whichever party wins or loses in in Bihar he stays the chief minister so", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-11", "text": "in in Bihar he stays the chief minister so where is it I mean I understand that that in private and then you know sensitivities get hurt these are things which happen in politics but the point is at no point of time was anybody in the BJP for contention for chief Minister's job it was always going to be nitish election after election doesn't matter how many seats he would get there was some something about nitish Kumar that he stays chief minister anyway but you get 2019 onwards it became much worse worse okay PK also left because of this I were expelled from the party on the same day by the same letter do you think there was it was the decision to expel you or do you think no I think it could have been a part of our choice no it could have been a party choice and I think as in terms of the disciplinary rules of the party they felt it appropriately to expel us why did you immediately go over to the TMC okay I", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-12", "text": "you immediately go over to the TMC okay I must say there was a Hiatus of almost two years and let me also clarify that after I was expelled at a personal level my relationship with nitish remained to be good I went to see him once at the height of kovid we had a long chat we used to talk to each other ah and he 2019 onwards I think nitish she was feeling uncomfortable but unable to break with the BJP you know he was reduced to 43 seats yeah what he calls the chirag pass one factor now he became a junior partner uh and not at the highest level but at the level of Patna and Bihar politics BJP leaders would make comments about you know who's the real people who has always been the case in Bihar politics there's always been this kind of they'll be together because of Coalition problems but they would keep making these statements that's the that's the bihari way of doing politics is where you don't it's a no holds barred", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-13", "text": "is where you don't it's a no holds barred issue when it comes to speaking your mind at least that's what my experience has been with I mean even with Lalu yadav and the others they would keep you know there was this acerbic comments that laluji would make about nitishti but they were together at one point of time during the despite so they were it was like you know two brothers in a joint family where they do talk so I would anyway let's get to the TMC part so you joined TMC at a point where TMC was expanding getting people across the board you know thinkers cricketers everybody was coming in and so one thought okay natural progression pavanji goes towards well you know TMC and then you leave the TMC again I'll tell you what's happened I'll be honest and candid with you with nitish yeast in the BJP Alliance uh people like me were wondering how to have one figure who could be Primus into Paris first among equals in", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-14", "text": "who could be Primus into Paris first among equals in terms of being able to coordinate and bring together the opposition which a democracy needs which the Prime Minister himself says that our democracy must have and after her dramatic Victory in West Bengal for a third time we felt that she has the fire the energy the belief of perhaps scaling up the TMC even perhaps with the new name a new constitution on a let's say a wider level than just Bengal oh really but uh a new name that was that was I mean in the sense that the TMC is was largely a Bengal Centric sure but Mamta G's personal uh image was I think larger than just a regional leader so how could we leverage that okay in a democratic way and actually when I joined the truth I had not gone to join us and this is a very interesting story because perhaps I am saying it for the first time publicly and I say that's good respect and regard and admiration for her warmth I went", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-15", "text": "and regard and admiration for her warmth I went to call on her on her one of her visits to Delhi and she said to me pavanji party so I was non-committed she said then she said and she went inside because she's a very spontaneous and affectionate person and came out with the shawl which is okay and she pushed around my shoulder okay you were there no no I mean and then a photograph was taken and to be honest at some level she knew that I was thinking of how to reconfigure the opposition where she could play a pivotal role but I had not joined the TMC okay and then she said after the meeting was over I'll see you off to the gate to the car when I went there with her there were 50 press people and she said pavanji and she was even more kind after two three weeks she made me the vice president of the party but over a course of time I realized for the variety of reasons that Mamta ji's Energies", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-16", "text": "variety of reasons that Mamta ji's Energies required to be in terms of the opposition to her in Bengal in terms of the needs of the TMC uh the vision she has the vision Abhishek has uh that she is perhaps by compulsion very Bengal Centric I'm not saying that she's not recognized as a national leader but very Bengal Centric and in a Bengal Centric party I didn't see a role for myself so with great politeness I resigned so um of course everybody talks about opposition unity and my personal view is right now it's it's a phantom concept it's not happening you've been working on this behind the scenes looking for somebody who could lead it who could be there everybody knows that there's a whole bunch of people whether it's Sita ramji or you or PK or hunting for this leader so when you join the TMC the idea was that oh okay there seems to be some kind of Meeting of Minds that she would lead it but", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-17", "text": "of Meeting of Minds that she would lead it but as you say that she's very Bengal Centric and uh do you see nitish ji because you know see uh look at it it wasn't as if when we see the earlier experiments it wasn't as a VP Singh had a national image it wasn't as a gujjal Saab had or or David gowda or chandrashekhar or Charan Singh you know none of them had this pan-india appeal but our politics is such in our country it happens do you see nitish as a factor who would be acceptable for this pan-india image because now it's pre-election positioning because that's what elections have become now it's personality oriented do you see nitish having the capability let's take the nitish ji and then I'll talk of the opposite sure see nitish ji has been chief minister of Bihar for 17 years he is a Grassroots politician from a very humble background who's risen to the top in Bihar has been a cabinet", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-18", "text": "to the top in Bihar has been a cabinet minister at the center in fact in atal bihari vajpayee's government uh has been an MP in both the Lok Sabha and the Raj Sabha so any comes from the Hindi heart belt in terms of a large state in the in the heart belt not that that is an essential prerequisite uh he also has that certain seniority whereby without being a threat to any other leader he could if he so desires uh make the attempt the seniority and the experience of trying to weave together some kind of pan-indian coordination with a larger opposition ah let us call it a greater acceptability Factor he has good relations with almost every political he was in he met with kcr with kejriwal with Rahul I mean you know are they all on board not the way you can build opposition Unity I always say Smitha that what we need is not arithmetic Unity what we need is organic Unity which is an organic Unity based on strategy coordination minimum coupon program", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-19", "text": "an organic Unity based on strategy coordination minimum coupon program one candidate from the opposition against the ruling BJP uh a certain Narrative of its own and not only criticism of the BJP and an acceptable face not necessarily the supreme leader but who in a way acts as a PO for the opposition so this way just meeting people is not the way an opposition unity and for remember we have very little time for 2024. it didn't happen even for the presidential election vice president is not the word this is not the way yeah right now if you ask me I'm not very optimistic for the opposition the reason is very simple it is scattered it is in silos it is an opposition which is at war with itself let us give you two three examples the congress party opposes the ah perhaps even more than the BJP right uh in West Bengal the principal opposition to the largest party against the TMC was the BJP and the principal opposition was the TMC but the Congress and the cpin", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-20", "text": "was the TMC but the Congress and the cpin yeah fought against freedomur let's take Telangana kcr is the obvious opponent not of the Congress now their principle is the BJP but the Congress is fighting kcr rather than uniting so just by speaking or meeting on a stage and holding your hands up you are not going to get opposition Unity it has to be a radically out of the box program so pavanchi don't you think that um with the Congress what happens is it's an existential crisis if they don't fight kcr right agreed that it's primarily uh BJP versus uh TRS in Telangana but if they don't fight kcr look at what he's saying it's an opposition United opposition minus the Congress that's what kcr says so they have to fight the TRS when it comes to uh West Bengal can you tell the Congress already they've seeded space it's gone they're no longer there in the Reckoning way so everywhere you and with the app they've gone", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-21", "text": "so everywhere you and with the app they've gone in Congress in Punjab so if they don't fight these Regional parties or semi-regional parties it's an existential crisis for them angry yeah let me say three things and I know Jed arms view or that of the Congress leadership for which he speaks is about Congress not seeding space right uh and I completely understand that point of view Congress is the mother of all political parties in India and there was a time when like a banyan tree it had Roots across the country and therefore its desire to once again resurrect that past is understandable however there are in my view there are two combination of a dual strategy one is the long term where the Congress is entirely entitled over in due course to resurrect Itself by making the internal reforms which the party deems to be essential the second is the short-term strategy 2024 2024 where without diluting or compromising upon your larger goal in terms of the imminent challenge you a", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-22", "text": "goal in terms of the imminent challenge you a dovetail your larger Ambitions with the imperative short-term priorities so I believe in with great respect that in the Congress they they need to see this aspect because when the opposition is fragmented or divided it divides the votes of the opposition and the only beneficiary is the BJP third Point let me say to you and again with great respect to KCRG I don't think you can have an opposition without the Congress now why do I say it I see it because there are at least 200 seats parliamentary where one on one where the Congress is the principal opponent of the BJP now no other regional party is in a position to fight the BJP so ideally a reformed or a vitalized revitalized congress fights those elections because that's the Bonanza for the BJP BJP has a strike rate of 96 against the Congress so either the Congress or the entire opposition unites to strengthen the Congress as the principal opponent to the BJP in", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-23", "text": "Congress as the principal opponent to the BJP in these 200 seats if you have a non-congress opposition that's really ambitious can you imagine today if you or Sita ramji or anybody who's been working towards an opposition Unity for now over five years I think if I'm not wrong is to get kcr Sharad pavar Mamta akhilesh mayawati I who have I left out tejaswi uh all of them to get together and say okay let's make Congress as a stronger party to take on the BJP even the 150 hundred twenty hundred and seventy seats to strengthen because we are not there so let's do this do you see any of them swallowing their egos because it's become such an egotistical thing now in the in the opposition and that's the reason they're fragmented so that's why I said I'm not very optimistic but I that does not mean that it's not doable I'll tell you why politics is dynamic let me give you two examples 1977. or before from", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-24", "text": "me give you two examples 1977. or before from the emergency in 75 till 77 the opposition was rudderless I mean there were leaders different parties ashram in Patna who woke up and became a cementing Gloop for an opposition I am not saying in terms of very successful experiment but it was good enough to decimate the congress party post the emergency let us take another example which seems even more Invincible Rajiv Gandhi comes in 84 with 404 MPS I mean he seemed to be there forever and in 87 eight people meet in a drawing room in Delhi and you know who they are will be saying around nehru ramdhan and so on so and out of nowhere a VP Singh effort middle class Messiah to take on yes I'm not saying I'm not saying it will happen and Let Me Not For a Moment devalue the popularity of narend modiji he is right now undoubtedly do you forget the Towering political figure in the country do you remember the Anna movement also", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-25", "text": "in the country do you remember the Anna movement also so when Anna Azari came everybody I mean not everybody but there was a section which thought that okay here's another person like a JP you know who could but he he fizzled out just like VP Singh fizzled out at one point of time now there's this talk that could it be nitish but there is one lot which mandalization of politics agitation politics based politics [Music] no there is a serious challenge now I'm not saying it's Nick bundle politics or let us say caste cohesion on certain issues of interest to those castes it is a factor but also we must understand that today that mandal instrument is being used against a political party which is three or four great intrinsic strengths which is the BJP first they have a very popular leader secondly they have a strong quarter and organization if you combine it with the RSS card also thirdly it's a 24 into 7 electoral machine yeah and fourthly they have whether you agree with it", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-26", "text": "and fourthly they have whether you agree with it or not a narrative which essentially consists of three or four elements Hindu politics hyper nationalism and I must say partly successful welfarism where targeted help has reached the poorest sections of society so now if mandal politics by itself is pitted against this it's not enough you have to do something more so this Congress isra is supposedly that to Galvanize uh the kadas and once the Cutters are galvanized then fix a narrative maybe a year or two late in doing this but then there was kovid or whatever but that is the idea that the Congress has that uh you know that they need to understandably so that get their cars but uh and you see at every point of time they have to battle a a party which as you say has very strong card or has a narrative knows how to take on the opposition and things and the opposition looks divided now there's another line which says that this pre-election uh Unity moves", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-27", "text": "another line which says that this pre-election uh Unity moves is a lost game let's not do that it happens after the election these this fragmented parties get together and we've seen UPA one upa2 it works so let's do that let's all get like our our own little little groups let let kcr get his let Mamta get hers so once it's all done then like you had a mulayam or like you had a hurricane Singh surjit getting together and post-election now I frankly Smitha I'm not in favor of mere Jordan politics if the opposition does not put together a compelling narrative which appeals to people merely and series of arithmetical permutations and combinations will not create a convincing political entity as opposed to the BJP it will not okay so there are legitimate discontents the opposition has not put its act together I tell you price rise it's hurting people I know for a fact the middle class has been reduced by almost 22 percent the poor have become", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-28", "text": "reduced by almost 22 percent the poor have become poorer we live in a very unequal Society where one percent of the rich own disproportionately the wealth and assets of this while the poor have gone become poorer there are no doubt achievements of the current government but in spite of that the global hunger index India has gone down rather than up so there are legitimate discounts if you were to write your middle class book again you would revisit it and maybe write a different story I'll say I'll tell you why I may write a different story because I know that Mr naren modi's strategy to begin with in his Ascent to the Pinnacle of the BJP was to First influence the middle class because it has a ripple effect across the country the middle class is a pan-indian class and he did that most successfully as a strong decisive leader with a vision against the lackluster and somewhat unimpressive performance of upa2 so he emerged and the middle class loves a messiah and he", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-29", "text": "and the middle class loves a messiah and he came as one now if the middle class is disillusioned the BJP needs to worry because you can only do so much of hindutva people will go with hindut because I think there are reasons for a certain degree of Hindu backlash in my latest book The Greatest great Hindu civilization where I analyze those reasons and I accept the validity of some of them and I cannot on another occasion or whenever you want go through each of them so there is a resonance to a certain reclaiming of Hindu Pride but you differentiate between but I think the same Hindus don't want that don't want it instability Law and Order situations and uh because Hindus are not jihadis in fact most citizens in this country except for for a certain Fringe which exists in all religion want to get on with their lives you'll be surprised during the height of the ayodhya agitation in 1990 to the traders of faizabad and", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-30", "text": "in 1990 to the traders of faizabad and ayodhya went on strike I have mentioned it in my book being Indian and when they were asked they said yeah so that dhanda bit is there everywhere it was there in Gujarat it was there in so those who are the I'll tell you when we were when this whole ayodhya movement happened and the ratyatras were out and on and I saw one of our television producers we've gone to dinner to his house and he had this sticker on his door which said and I was like it was a way of life for all of us right we never felt the need to say it but that comes from this sense of entitlement because our Hinduism or our being a Hindu was never in threat but he was a he was a kashmiri Hindu yeah his identity as a Hindu was under threat for for a long long time so he needed to say it so I understand where so for me it was a shocker and I", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-31", "text": "where so for me it was a shocker and I understood this this entitled Hindu that I was who never felt her Hindu or entitled upper caste that I never understood the mandal agitation I had to ask like what is because why we were Urban we were Cosmopolitan we never felt nobody asked us and I never this easy uh uppercast life that one leads where caste doesn't affect me it didn't affect me it's only when the mandal agitation happened that I realized how entitled my life was how cushy my life was that I didn't face any atrocity so I couldn't understand that right the same way till that a hindutva movement happened with the rathyatra I didn't understand the angst of the Hindus who were under that thread similarly I can't even begin to understand or I couldn't till I saw the Muslims being you know atrocities on them so unless you experience that to to say that oh this is uncalled for anyway let me now", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-32", "text": "oh this is uncalled for anyway let me now that I'm talking about that I have to speak to you because you're essentially a delhiwala what do you have to say to this whole latians Delhi Khan Market gang because you are you are a card Market gang I'm a Khan Market gang right we love to go to the card Market we love to go to Khan market and shop and eat and have discussions so do you feel that okay maybe they are right we are entitled we were this Khan Market gang without a doubt without a doubt let me tell you when you refer you give you can give it any label latience can't Market gang the fact is that there is a small but minuscule class which are the beneficiaries of inherited power and privilege it also is a fact that they are vociferous in their views but visibly cut off from the mainstream of life of the common masses outside the Metropolis thirdly it's a class which in a way inherited power from the", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-33", "text": "a class which in a way inherited power from the departing British although the country won Independence the immediate beneficiaries were those who were already positioned to take advantage of Independence their English was good their fluency in English was good they had been to good schools their parents were well to do and therefore the opportunities that they got were available to them without competition when I gave the foreign service exam you could give the exam only in English yeah out of my batch of the Foreign Service there were 10 boys from Saint Stephens it's unfair you have to democratically empower others now the problem with latians is and the Khan Market gang is that they're so convinced about the validity of their point of view that I call them reflex liberists liberalists which was just speaking about Hinduism for instance they are strong Believers in secularism but they have not read the ramayana except as a comic they believe that you know they know Shakespeare more than kalidas so I'm just saying that", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-34", "text": "more than kalidas so I'm just saying that they are cut off from the life impulses of the country a lot in the mea let me tell you this one example I'm interrupting you but there was uh we're going to cover the EU Summit and yashwanzana was the EM external affairs minister and uh vajpaiji was the Prime Minister and uh the briefing happened like you always used to do as XP uh heads with the external publicity whoever was the jsxp I don't remember exactly who it was but he's then gave the questions and the question answer session continued and it was Mr yashwan Sinha answering all the questions and so at one point of time I I said and the entire media team which was covering it all these English speaking people who cover and mind you I was part of that they giggled and they laughed oh come on you can translate it why do you need that right so then the jsxp said challenge so I went up to yashwan Sinha and", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-35", "text": "challenge so I went up to yashwan Sinha and I said that both but you come from a Hindi band do you understand that there are Hindi channels which will not use this won't use this uh because it's too much of a pain EU Summit European Union because of whatever happened at that Summit there was some incident but no I don't elaborate but I even politicians let me tell you when they reached that age when they reached that uh you know become an external affairs minister forget their Roots it's only now you know when people have realized that we need to be aware I to learned how to speak in Hindi only when I realized that I'm not reaching my audience it's not my language I'm a South Indian but I learned how to speak fluently in Hindi as much as I can because of this this whole latians gang Khan Market it is a reality isn't it indeed and let me tell you in my case I went to South Columbus yeah", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-36", "text": "in my case I went to South Columbus yeah exactly I went to Saint Xavier's I went to Saint Stephens I could have become a saint but at the end of it but I am proud that today or even from much earlier I can speak fluently in Hindi write in Hindi I have translated Urdu but I had once a boss in mea who tell me on the intercom I say old chap there is an HMT type of guy here Hindi medium type and once he even used an expression called um2 and then it's called umt Uh do medium type you know can you deal with him so this kind of elitism you believe very well I know exactly who you mean but I'm not going to say the name well this kind of elitism cut off from the reality of India which by the way and this is my foot now doesn't mean that whatever the so-called latin's gang or carmont could gang believes in is wrong but they need to develop greater authenticity credibility in", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-37", "text": "but they need to develop greater authenticity credibility in voicing it right otherwise it appears that they are in a sense prisoners of a past which and of a value system with of with which they they are unable to interpret for the masses so tell me this you know you've written an article also I read recently about uh about the bureaucracy uh writing letters suddenly finding spine or the lack of it whatever you might I mean you have two views on that about because obviously you will appreciate letters written by a certain set of bureaucrats against a certain government and a certain set of bureaucrats who are writing against those Bureau grads what is happening it never used to happen right bureaucrats never got together they were so divided as a lot now suddenly these letter letter words are happening no no because I think the most I mean unless they get more involved and I respect their views a group of bureaucrats supporting something or a group of bureaucrats", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-38", "text": "supporting something or a group of bureaucrats criticizing something I think I I respect it but it contributes little and I think a certain greater degree of activism needs to happen because what happens a group of bureaucrats right a letter critical of the government the government collects its own supporters among bureaucrats and they write a counterlet and so it's a pretty sterile kind of uh war going on Chambers don't you think that they are in Echo Chambers but I know that many of those who write this letter are people who cannot become part of active politics but they have their own views a certain conviction and they believe that certain things need to be preserved or certain things need to be defended and I respect them for that but I think what we need is a greater effort see not everybody can write columns not everybody goes on television so if they get together and write a letter is that okay is that fine I think it's a democracy people can write letters sure", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-39", "text": "think it's a democracy people can write letters sure okay and and I appreciate that okay my column which you referred to was about what happens to officers and bureaucrats when they are in service and I don't make a great virtue of this my father was in the ICS and and to take a stand which they believe to be correct even if they felt that the political Master may not like it one in a million maybe you know came to them far more easily it's a small service it was a service which still was independent and I know of politicians from the stories I heard from my father who respected the officer for that because they would rather have someone who gives free and fair advice than someone who's a ah reflects yes man but today it's not just today no pavanji I I mean I've also seen it I mean we're all products of the same system but it's always been there those bureaucrats who who defied or forget about even Defiance even advised uh a politician", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-40", "text": "forget about even Defiance even advised uh a politician in a certain manner didn't get Plum postings and didn't have uh post retirement benefits jobs it's a system which has continued all through where is that any change perhaps it was always there but the degree of uh the the gradual compromise of the bureaucrat where he has become an accessory to the politician because both are beneficiaries the politician is happy he's got a bureaucrat who endorses what he thinks the bureaucrat is happy for the dividends of this kind of blind blind loyalty everybody is Happy okay so I mean I think it's a question of degree I just like while I'm concluding you you mentioned in one of your articles that it's time to introspect the moral fiber of the country um tell me when when you say this like as parents uh we expect it out of our children right uh our parents expected it out of us but in practice where does that come about because you know it's many say that this whole", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-41", "text": "about because you know it's many say that this whole in politics morality is something which is which is dead long ago and it's it's an overrated uh virtue do you do you think that's the case I I must say that uh I can't say I'm aware of the inherent Corruptions and immorality which some people justify as impossible to differentiate from politics there is money power there is unaccountable money which in my view is the root of all corruption in the country but that apart I think the young in this country Smitha needs some role model a role model who stands for a certain idealism principles personal integrity and is willing to demonstrate it because otherwise the feeling grows foreign and that I feel is bad for a country which is not a country it's a civilization it goes back to the dawn of time in terms of Ethics in terms of idealisms in terms of principles in terms of conviction there are few civilizations that can match this country and for it to lose", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-42", "text": "that can match this country and for it to lose its moral Anchorage of the difference between right and wrong in my view is a tragedy so do we expect it out of any one individual and does that individual become like a religious Guru a political Guru a spiritual Guru do we seek that what do we seek when we seek this moral fiber to somebody to enhance or to bring out morality in society what do we do it's difficult because I realize people and politicians are people also and they operate within a certain system where the end becomes far more important than the means let me be honest however a nation which is bereft of idealism uh and I can only quote again it's a cliched example of what Mahatma Gandhi by the sheer didn't of his personality and personal example kind of bequeath to this country at least for the initial years after our independence a certain let's say reticence as far as wealth goes a certain awareness of the number of people", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "33930af4dd76-43", "text": "goes a certain awareness of the number of people who still are poor certain ability to say no to personal gain at the cost of public good these were value systems and over a time if everything becomes transactional where are those young on this country who shall be world leaders at one time I think it's bad for them that's all I feel thank you very much for speaking with us pavanji it's been an absolute pleasure now the pleasure is mine thank you so much hope you enjoyed listening or watching uh to this interview with Mr Pawan Varma on Ani podcast with Smitha prakash do like or subscribe to whichever platform you've seen it or heard it in namaste thank you [Music]", "source": "zj0j5MHSe3U"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-0", "text": "as my grandmother would use a word for him he's a misna is arvind kejr he is the biggest misna that you have to watch out for and I remember in 2008 going to modi's house in gandhinagar after which I wrote an article so it's all published material where I said one day this man will be the Prime Minister I may be allowed any political ideology I can practice any religion I can eat what I want who is someone else to tell me as long as it's not illegal the tragedy is the left believes that indian-ness is nationalistic and nationalism is right-wing they forget that patriotism is the last Refuge of this government not nationalism Namaste jaihin welcome to Ani podcast with Smitha prakash today's guest is Mr suhail Seth he's a brand strategist he's a writer author uh you've seen him on television debates he talks about every subject under the sun IL is No Holds Barred kind of a speaker he will say the most", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-1", "text": "Barred kind of a speaker he will say the most outrageous things on television on camera he believes in what he speaks there was only this one short period where he kind of didn't talk about and even to date uh he will not speak about it when he came under Cloud to some extent because of the Mito allegations against him and since it is uh you know he doesn't want to speak about it uh he agreed to do this interview with the uh with the understanding that we will not talk about this issue and he will speak about it when the time is right he says thank you very much for coming to our studio suhail um nobody will believe that this is the first time I'm meeting you officially I mean I must reveal this little bit that I remember when I was in college you were senior to me you were in Calcutta I was in Delhi and uh we were going for an inter College competition and we got to know that oh there's a team coming in from", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-2", "text": "to know that oh there's a team coming in from Calcutta go foreign we were like absolute mince meat and when I saw our teams competing I said no chance this guy's going to win everything and that's what happening these days when we see you on television is like doesn't matter what the topic is you just make mincemeat about everybody but you know uh thanks to Delhi colleges I got my first motorcycle I bought my first maruti in those days Deluxe because of the weddings these were the only colleges which paid cash except for Saint Stephen's Rich gave you book vouchers otherwise everyone was paying cash but you let me start from the beginning your quintessentially a Calcutta boy you take great pride in talking about uh you being you know from Calcutta the the love that you have for that City uh we'll come to the Delhi aspect later tell us about your life in Calcutta so I was born uh in Calcutta and my grandfather was one of the", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-3", "text": "in Calcutta and my grandfather was one of the first ever Indians to do a joint venture with Roche Pharmaceuticals uh you know the Swiss farmer Pharma company and he had a factory in barrackpore and then the daxolite movement began and when we were growing up so I was all I was seven years old 1970. and my grandfather's closest friend was Phil Marshall manekshaw so at that time general manager was the gocnc Eastern command and he told my grandfather we're talking about the 70s now 70s he told my grandfather who was called gangaram he says gangram move him out of Calcutta and send him a boarding school so in 71 the year of the Bangladesh Liberation War I was packed off to sin Joseph's in anythal but Calcutta is what gave me the the anchoring and which I tell all young people the only difference between Calcutta and other cities is they don't care who you are how much you own how much you earn as long as you can", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-4", "text": "own how much you earn as long as you can do two things you can speak well and you can be interesting and obviously if you're a foodie it's it's the icing on the cake and we were encouraged to speak to speak out to speak against the establishment I remember when I came back to Calcutta from nainital uh the school principal in lamartia was accused of theft of cameras and you know I Rose in the assembly and we created a huge Ruckus and my school time was taken him you know the house captain Thai got that but we didn't care so also at that time remembers whether I you know you're obviously much younger but in those days theater was the elixir of life so I started doing plays at the age of 12. so by the time I finished with the Calcutta leg I had already done about 167 plays Indira Gandhi had banned Bhutto by Ice johar yeah ice Jordan auditioned me in Bombay and when she banned it I went", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-5", "text": "in Bombay and when she banned it I went to Jyoti Babu I never knew him didn't know him at all both of us students went to him and I said Mr Basu you run West Bengal how can Mrs Gandhi stop a play from being staged he says I'm giving you a permission you stage the play so we were growing up Smitha in environment which allowed you to challenge which allowed you to disagree without being disagreeable and it allowed you the fortitude with which you could face the world only because you had knowledge to back you up but now in in today's India or today's world I wouldn't say just India it's all vocism it's everything has to be politically right you say one word this way or that way it could be either an fir against you or the cancer culture do you agree with that that we are in a very difficult phase yeah and you know I have to say two things here Narendra Modi was my briefing client along with jaitly when I", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-6", "text": "was my briefing client along with jaitly when I was doing the vajpay campaign I've seen Modi in action obviously jaitly sadly passed away and I remember in 2008 going to modi's house in gandhinagar after which I wrote an article so it's all published material where I said one day this man will be the prime minister I have seen the retribution that say the top most person in India has faced because of this canceled culture and vocism the good part is Modi ignores it as he should I was in New York and last week there was an issue related to Charles elmy and people ask you know she's the BJP spokesperson in case people don't I should just ignore it vocism and to the organizers okay look there is always there will always be people who will pursue an agenda of their own there's no bigger intolerance than being intolerant and seemingly coming across a tolerant so the most intolerant people are the ones actually who praise and who you know", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-7", "text": "are the ones actually who praise and who you know espouse the virtues of tolerance for instance I may be allowed any political ideology I can practice any religion I can eat what I want who is someone else to tell me as long as it's not illegal okay many years ago I was asked on a program why do you smoke I said I smoke cigarettes oh it's bad for your health I said benefits made illegal I'll stop so I have a very clinical view on these matters and I think more the more we succumb the more they will trample you see to say uh don't succumb uh when it's an individual but uh it's become so serious now you anybody uh eats non-vegetarian or eats beef cancel culture you eat the thing is that why do you talk about eating beef but you don't eat talk about pork they have a way of you know there is a there I can well understand one side saying it but the cancel culture is what is scary because the right", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-8", "text": "the cancel culture is what is scary because the right wing which was a victim of that cancer Culture by the left now says that hey you did this to us so we'll do it to you so while while I understand where they come from where does this end if this is how it's going to be if you recall in those before uh the Modi era before 9 2014 um the reason I say Modi era is because you know the right wing started asserting itself a little bit say between 2014 to 2016 and talked about this whole Khan Market gang and how they had got a kind of a vicious grip over over media over over the think tanks over seminar circuit everything was if you were even mildly right-wing there's this I remember meeting uh an author in um in Washington DC he goes with the Twitter handle called great bong his name is also arnab and he told me that Publishers wouldn't even consider his books at one point of time when he was writing or even his articles", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-9", "text": "of time when he was writing or even his articles because there was like toned down your right wing otherwise we can't give you op-ed space we like what you write but we can't give you op-ed space this is how it used to be before 2014 I met him before 2014. but sure enough 2014 comes and everything changes he finds a publisher he finds operate space but there is the other thing that happens right the right wing is now out there writing their orbit pieces and they are now critical of the left wing guy so where does this end how does it how does their balance come about so I think that's a brilliant question now let me tell you where it will end nowhere because it's going to perpetuate itself until people like you and I will see through uh the nonsense and we'll be able to sift through the the facade what is happening is as you rightly said there is an assertion this is the era of assertion you're asserting yourself they're asserting themselves", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-10", "text": "you're asserting yourself they're asserting themselves also remember liberals have a very fine way of assertion they believe in Social ostracization yeah their right wing is still dumb enough not to know how to do it I've always said that there's no point getting upset with the New York Times The Washington Post you either engage with them or you let them be the day you tell someone I'm upset with you means that person is relevant to you irrelevance weather is the worst thing you know many years ago I think it was George Bernard show who says you can love me or hate me but don't be indifferent okay indifference is what the right wing must now learn to practice also I have a sneaky feeling that many a Time the right wing sometimes wants the endorsement of the Liberals yes I agree with you which by the way is suicidal why would you want the endorsement of anyone and I've always said you know I was asked this question uh in New York people said oh", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-11", "text": "asked this question uh in New York people said oh but Modi I said when I last checked he's won two general elections we are a democracy if you decry him you're actually decrying democracy and you're decrying the Mandate of a large section of Indians who have voted him he has not sneaked through the back door I can understand when say a think tanker or a policy wonk uh says that this is not the India that ought to be because think tankers tend to think they know a lot of what India ought to be what corporate India ought to be what media ought to be they are the ones who are the gyanese what about journalists how can journalists not accept a mandate If Today Rahul Gandhi wins three election state election say he wins Gujarat he wins Himachal Pradesh he wins the next election that happens the state election that happens if he wins that will you continue to will anybody any in their same mind continue to you know say that he's", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-12", "text": "their same mind continue to you know say that he's abusing nut job he's at this he's a that no he's winning elections which means people will absolutely right so I can't understand journalists who you know say that this is not right but you know um what did you see between 1952 and 2014. you saw political patronage of the worst kind you you replace the Royals with the political royalty and they gave you lodges they took you on Air India one they allowed you their junkets even atalji allowed this yeah what did Modi say he says I don't care and what Modi has done is what these guys needed a long time ago now I'll give you examples I know of several people Smitha who using their journalistic tag or the accreditation was staying in government-sponsored Bungalows and homes without paying a dime why they were close to the past that be you saw there was a political there was a famous so-called famous lady journalist on television who said I make", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-13", "text": "lady journalist on television who said I make and break cabinets it's another matter that she got 24 people killed uh at the chambers because of her Reckless and insensitive reportage on 26 11 which I was witnessed to so point I'm making is those days of entitlement are over now all that needs to be communicated and this is where this government is perhaps its weakest the individuals in this government are great communicators but the government as a whole is weak why should they even talk about right wing what is Modi done with the Padma Awards he has created a democracy of awards that you and I couldn't imagine earlier people would write to me people would call you up I would always tell people that if I even endorse it you there there's a sure side of nothing you won't get it but you know how the thing worked yes today it is actually a meritocracy yeah but no one talks about it yeah today you can be the poorest of the poor the Communists of the", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-14", "text": "poorest of the poor the Communists of the common and yet if you've achieved something you will get it you can write six op-ed columns praising Modi but you will not get a Padma award this is what has the message this is the best message that could have gone out I mean I am supremely happy that this has happened but then of course I'm not the you are the brand consultant now you know let me get on to uh before I get on to the corporate sector let me just get on to the political parties you've talked about what what could go what BJP does wrong or what the the government does wrong at the center or even the right wing does wrong what about these single man banned parties right their images of like okay Mamta heads TMC it's be be all an end-all right uh the bsp the SP the kcrs party TRS there's a Stalin in the South there's you know everybody all these Regional parties so-called Regional they're actually single man bad even a", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-15", "text": "so-called Regional they're actually single man bad even a Sharad pavar is a single manager absolutely right how but in spite of that they get elected they don't even need a branding that one person brand is enough isn't that a little bizarre no but you know you'll be surprised Mamta battery has a very strong brand within Bengal is seen as the great maratha but you're right these are not pan-national parties you know ironic as it may sound the only pan-national party is led by a guy who's better off sitting in a boat which he never has to row and no pun intended on that snake ladder board but that's the tragedy yeah the tragedy is that that is the only pan-national party right the others are parties which fight elections because they are funds the other person you have to watch out for because as my grandmother would use a word for him he's a misna is arvind that is such a Punjabi thing to say she was Punjabi as I am", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-16", "text": "thing to say she was Punjabi as I am too he is the biggest misna that you have to watch out for for two reasons number one he's obviously got money and now he's got two states under his belt he understands the game he has played certain sessions of the media with lots of advertising money yeah yeah and you know that's what you what you've got to be worried about because he understands the game that is being played qual the media and you're rightly mentioned how irresponsible has the liberal media been in the most recent reporters there's been complete radio silence why because they applied with advertising money so the question that then needs to be asked Smitha is ask Irani famously said of the Statesman many years ago he says the press in India is as free as it chooses to be and I'm not saying this because I'm sitting here you run one of the most formidable agencies you know in terms of news agencies you know better than I do that the pulls", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-17", "text": "you know better than I do that the pulls and pressures sometimes are highly exaggerated sometimes television channels want to tow a particular line because they're looking for benefits which have nothing to do with news Gathering someone may want land for a university someone may want land for this someone may want land for that yeah if it's not a purely news owned organization then yes I mean and many channels mind you are owned by rice exporters Builders politicians so they have their own compulsions that I agree but um and even newspapers I shouldn't say just news so that's where I think social media has come in let me tell you even uh like when we're talking about the media in the past there are many um many presumptions that I myself had which I used to think that's the way it's done till social media came in and I there was a lot of reality check and literally learning every day you know yeah uh that oh my God what I was doing was wrong what I was thinking was", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-18", "text": "I was doing was wrong what I was thinking was wrong and this comes in when an ordinary person tells you that you know this is elitism that you know you are you don't even realize it that what you were seeing or what you were doing was wrong and then it just comes back to me I think social media is a great leveler yeah but I'll only tell people like you because you're in the in the field don't give too much Credence to social media okay if you look at the numbers it's almost about two percent of your population so it really doesn't matter Twitter was can be fought between people who have nothing else to do B social media has a way of creating pressure groups where none should exist the third is the anonymity the anonymity allows them to say Reckless things when the government created controls or wanted to create controls I was all for it and someone said oh you're in for censorship I said I'm sorry platforms cannot be used to incite and create hatred platforms cannot", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-19", "text": "be used to incite and create hatred platforms cannot be used to Peddle fake news then there must be some mechanism of Retribution either the platform should be made responsible or people using the platform should be made responsible tomorrow someone makes an allegation against you or me or person X or person why there is what recourse do I have there is nothing I mean this whole fact Checker business I'm not even going to get into it because then you know it becomes impossible because then and who's giving them who are you to tell me that your facts are the perfect facts and they choose the facts which they want to be absolutely and that choosing is based on ideology it's not choosing based on what is news is choosing based on okay this suits me ideologically this suits me religion wise cast wise whatever and that's why I'm going to fact check or not fact check it that that bothers me no so which is why the point that you raised earlier is very interesting the idea of India existed", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-20", "text": "earlier is very interesting the idea of India existed before we became free we're now all excited about India at 75 and we'll get excited at India at 100. the point is if you look back you pull back a bit what have you actually celebrated in India at 75 modi's done a remarkable job by at least branding it you know azadiq um but if you look at the communications being pathetic now you tell me tagore bankim Chandra Chatterjee whether it was Swami Vivekananda three orobindo the zillions of people across Amrita prism they were all contributors to the shaping of the thinking that made us who we are and I'm talking even go back further go back 3000 years ago my belief is that the time has come for us to celebrate indian-ness the tragedy is the left believes that indian-ness is nationalistic and nationalism is right-wing they forget that patriotism is the last Refuge of this government not nationalism yeah that's parsing the word because not many people", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-21", "text": "yeah that's parsing the word because not many people get into the intellectual aspect of it because I don't read they don't read yeah okay you know I'm dealing with even in the corporate world I'm dealing with 99 uh people who are absolute idiots but you can't say that to them because some some of them you know you you need to respect so when you're doing branding uh you know your ideal ideology negative right you don't even think that about the ideology of of your client you don't think about the religiosity or non-religious or agnostic or whatever it doesn't matter to you right what happens when you go in to talk about branding of a political party if you get a client if you have to advise a client does it matter which was given by me I treat it as an assignment okay I don't treat it and you're absolutely right I'm completely politically neutral okay and I've always been because frankly I'm more interested in great food than a great political party because no matter", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-22", "text": "great food than a great political party because no matter which political party comes they will tax the hell out of me yeah so I really don't care okay what I worry about are political parties which are Insidious to my mind and with all grave responsibility I will say ahmadmi party has become insidious insidious why when you raise alarmist bugles when you try and be anti-establishment for the sake of being anti-establishment when you out every institution that is that is germane to the functioning of a democracy then you're Insidious the danger I get it but what I'm trying to say is it's not as if he's inventing Reinventing the wheel he knows internationally what has happened but you see that's the problem today if you look at what's happening in America there was a time six months ago when I told people that if Trump stood in 2024 he will win but if you see some of the endorsements of the candidates he's had from the grand old party people are losing why ultimately people", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-23", "text": "the grand old party people are losing why ultimately people want a level of happiness and comfort now it's the other day someone on television said so many high net worth individuals have left India since Modi came my response was I'm so delighted because the people who've left were non-contributory in any which way they were people who were either skimming off the surface they were people who were violating laws of this land and they have left for better climes to now say that the government must not take action now the other thing which which you alluded to people like Mamta Banerjee say all the agencies are attacking politicians if politicians are making money the agencies will attack you the CBI or the Ed didn't put 70 crores in someone's house it was there it was unaccounted for now should our agency stop working even if it is for political reasons and allow corruption to be condoned many years ago I met with this guy he's a he's a businessman industrialist and said that I want my sons", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-24", "text": "businessman industrialist and said that I want my sons a son was in college and he says uh I want him to get into politics so I said like why you know contribute he said no because all businesses uh need one one person in politics to safeguard what you have and two for expansion businesses or they own it so this was quite a while ago which made me think that what what are we getting at you need it you need to get into public service to safeguard an existing business it sounded ghastly but you know look at the logic it sounds miserable but look at the logic how much money do people have to spend in order to fight an election it's Way Beyond the prescribed limit by the election commission sure today the election commissioner says instead of twenty thousand two thousand is the cash amount cash remittance all these political parties are minting money now if I have to spend 10 15 crores I'm going to recover that 15 crores how am I going to recover it not by", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-25", "text": "crores how am I going to recover it not by being Mother Teresa I will recover it in some form or the other who will I recover it from people like you and me well certainly not the two of us because I won't even pay a dime but that's that's how the whole recovery process begins yeah so my belief is that until and unless you make electoral funding really severe look at England for example in any constituency you stand for in England you can't spend more than 30 000 pounds that's the limit and they are hawkish about it even if you spend one pound more you can actually be debarred we have to follow that and trust me that day is not far you know I advise that others I advise but if you see the tatas they have a transparent way of funding elections which is based on two principles track record and what achievements have you made from your last electoral winnings to the present and it's all mathematically uh attributable so there's no", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-26", "text": "it's all mathematically uh attributable so there's no guns right at the at the grassroot level when an MLA election a panchayat election that's where all you don't have these kind of rules you know your corporate rules are different but all the money is actually coming in from the street you know where where the shopkeepers right let's see what modi's done and I've said this publicly it is by far the cleanest cabinet India's ever had ever yeah I believe there is in this cabinet or in this government the rule is that even the slightest bit obtained and you will have to leave so they there is this fear of danda all the time and I'm so glad now are people making money some are making money in the name of the party some bureaucrats must be making money or you know people in certain departments or whatever but I can tell you and I advise some of the biggest industrialists in the country each one has said which means we don't need to go to", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-27", "text": "has said which means we don't need to go to Delhi ever again earlier that's euphemism for lighting Pockets lining Pockets or you know paying obesions right today the fact that Modi doesn't meet individual industrialists and would only meet you in groups or the fact that they've given a lot of credits to The fickies ciis as a Champs of the world they are interested in policy once the policy is laid down it doesn't matter who you are what dispensation you come from and this whole nonsense that Rahul Gandhi started now that we're talking about corporates about adani and Ambani two things number one Rahul Gandhi even if he tried hard he wouldn't be able to employ a single person with an honest day's salary number two why do you begrudge people who are doing well for the country you know adani hasn't again come out you know stolen from a bank or done decority neither is Ambani why do you constantly berate your own industrialist today it's", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-28", "text": "you constantly berate your own industrialist today it's just these two tomorrow it'll spread and you will start having people at State levels so suppose the Smitha prakash doesn't pay money to a month of energy Mamta will start saying ah Smitha is bad there is no end to this see you know um we were talking about uh this whole adani Ambani business which uh Rahul Gandhi keeps saying and even um ahmadni party all their leaders of Amani party they keep saying that and then they kept saying that it's industrialists who run this government so there's this whole movement towards an anti-industrialist or just two people becoming richer whereas most of India is becoming poorer the Congress even celebrated the prime minister's birthday as beirusgari Divas if I'm not mistaken so on the other hand people you know say that you're crushing wealth you know those who are wealth creators job creators you're going after them so tell me is what is the right way so let me give", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-29", "text": "is what is the right way so let me give you facts today Reliance Industries is the second largest employer of Indians and is the largest employer of Indians in the private sector in September 2015 on the fifth Radha krishnadi's birthday when Mukesh launched jio it dropped pricing in competitive terms by almost 60 percent so today India is the world's leading digitized economy I mean even Germany can't get its goddamn payment uh portals right who did that money now you tell me there was Airtel there was Vodafone there were other players today what has happened Airtel is doing brilliantly Vodafone idea is in trouble as they should be because of perhaps their service levels or whatever today you have jio you have Airtel has it had been wiped out no adani when adani actually made his initial money it was during the Congress days please understand he's in the infrastructure business for a port to materialize it takes about 14 to 15 years let's say a fast accident does it in", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-30", "text": "years let's say a fast accident does it in nine years it's still before Modi came to power it's very easy for Raul Gandhi for anyone to take pot shots it's the same Mamta Banerjee who's Reckless irresponsible Member of Parliament made comments about adani who was the chief guest at the global business Summit where I was also present Gotham adani so if they don't like him why do they take his money if Rahul Gandhi doesn't like adani why does the show Gallard invite him to Rajasthan please also remember I can understand political compulsions but when political compulsions become personal they can go personal as well where did Rahul Gandhi and his family for years get money for their elections did they go to Fiji or New Zealand no they got it from these people who was who who did Ahmed Patel who supported Ahmed Patel Sikh all the time from diruma ambani's time he sought their uh you know supported patronage I think corporate India is", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-31", "text": "you know supported patronage I think corporate India is doing a fabulous job a b today the Tata group under Chandra and I'm deeply involved I know they've done fabulously well now will you say that Modi is also supporting the Tata group when the Cyrus Mystery Case happened it went right up to the Supreme Court it went through all the uh the procedure and when the house of Tata one would you say that oh Modi got it done I mean this is ridiculous and let me tell you this sarkar comment delayed reforms by two years and I know because jaitly was Finance Minister and nobody wanted this I will give you a fact Gautama madani has never spoken about it but I can tell you it's 100 true he owns the airport in Jaipur he also owns the airport in Ahmedabad he won't put his name there because obviously politicians must have told him we'll get into trouble this is ridiculous here is a person the bids are transparent it's not as", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-32", "text": "a person the bids are transparent it's not as if you know he's taken the airport under subterfuge he's in the infrastructure business look at Mukesh so tell me in this would you advise uh what he did was right it's it's political expediency you get no business body is done no what Rahul Gandhi has done is I'm talking about see an adani not putting the name you know not doing not at all because I'll tell you one thing and this is what I wanted to allude to earlier you can only succumb to Logic the day you succumb to Blackmail there'll be no stopping you they will blackmail you for everything they will hold you to Ransom intellectually they will hold you to Ransom monetarily they'll hold you to Ransom spiritually do you want that and which is why I say this discussion in public domains on religion is a travesty of who we really are we should not be talking about that I should not worry if Smitha eats beef or", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-33", "text": "should not worry if Smitha eats beef or eats poke or eats chicken or eats Gobi I should be worried if Smitha doesn't have enough food on her plate to eat that should be my worry true very well put another question which I've you know it it really touched my heart is when you what you said about you know he uh he made many people wealthy which which uh not many people know those who are not you know dealing with the stock market or don't know about him we saw those pictures of him with the Prime Minister and knew that he was not keeping good health you interacted with him in the last uh several times in fact the day he met the Prime Minister that evening he had come home to gurgaon for dinner and I warned him not the first time I told him I said you got to take it easy he was a severe diabetic in fact he had a diabetic foot hence the wheelchair but you know Rakesh was a different and", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-34", "text": "wheelchair but you know Rakesh was a different and is a different human being I can never even talk about him in the past tense his life was so wedded to the idea of a successful entrepreneurial driven India I never saw that in too many people a b what I loved about him is you say this about me I used to say this about him Reckless enjoyed his life and was Epicurean to a point that you know who knows tomorrow so eat drink as much as you can today what I always worried about and and I told him so in so many words was his complete disregard for health off of Fitness you know I'm not exactly adamus you know I'm overweight but at least I'm fit in the sense I'm healthy I work out I swim blah blah he had no interest he was a great Giver he was a super philanthropist he gave money to Ashoka he uh set up foundations he set up schools but here's the tragedy of what uses all of", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-35", "text": "but here's the tragedy of what uses all of that when you disregard your own health and today he leaves behind a wife he leaves behind a daughter who's 17 or so two boys who are 13 I mean this was a man who was a genuine Giver you know of him I've always said he was one of the finest optimists that you would want to put in a room anywhere to promote brand India okay he was not only Indian in his Outlook in his eating habits in everything he was a committed Indian in terms of India's potential he genuinely believed that India will India can and India must outlive the potential that its most formidable supporters have given it even you are like that very unabashed about your uh about your belief in brand India I love my country I I love it to the point that sometimes the stupidities that it is infected with make me very angry like I I'm saying this to you I've written about it it'll be published in a while I've said", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-36", "text": "it it'll be published in a while I've said that brand India at 75 could have been a celebration of such a different kind but you know we turned it into an we turned it like event managers and this is my problem with governments see remember one thing Modi is a very astute marketing man very astute he understands both Optics and the Outreach but when you give it to babus they don't they treat it as an event now you tell me you have two nehru centers across the world one in Moscow one in London what are they they're known for samosas and pathetic wine I could have done an Outreach which would have been so remarkable in celebrating India why I had a first celebrated democracy the day I would have celebrated democracy in Washington and in New York in London and in Moscow I would really nearly be celebrating Modi so all his people in the government who would like to suck up to him should have realized that a celebration of democracy is", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-37", "text": "have realized that a celebration of democracy is actually a celebration of electoral politics over dictatorial politics plus what do we do in our soft pass method we talk about Bollywood that's it we have sundry literary festivals but where are the Hari Prasad chaurasias who are still alive we do a film on uh India at 75 which is a poor copy of military this is a film which should not have had Kapil Dev although I love him it should not have had all these celebrities it had the same Padma what is who you and I don't know but who we would have come to know through whom you would have admired the diversity of India both in potential as well as linguistically and culturally we let that opportunity pass so my belief is that this country has so much potential we've got great people we've got great human beings you know people have asked me I mean I've advised governments abroad people said why don't you become a British citizen but I would", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-38", "text": "don't you become a British citizen but I would never give up this country why because a I was born here B I don't belong to India or India belongs to me we have a common DNA and I've often said that India is like the Bumblebee aerodynamically the Bumblebee can't fly but you know the bumblebee doesn't know that so it flies happily okay so for all the cynics who say Indiana foreign inflation what we did during the pandemic I was the biggest critic in wave two when he ran short of resp uh uh oxygen and we ran short of ventilators triumphed you don't think as many in the opposition say that the idea of India is being altered and it's under who are they the idea of India belongs to every Indian who the hell is jairam Ramesh or Sita Ram yeturi or for that matter anyone in the BJP to say this is one idea of India India's ideas are pluralistic India is not monolithic in either its Outlook or in", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-39", "text": "is not monolithic in either its Outlook or in its construct India is a celebration of diversity India is a celebration of contrarian thought I mean the fact that we are today celebrating netaji we're also celebrating Mahatma Gandhi we are also celebrating Sardar Patel no it's another matter that sometimes you make dead people fight that's another matter but the point is we are celebrating our diversity and why shouldn't we but I am saying celebrate the scholarship of India thank you our lives will go our cars will shrink or cars will vanish the idea of India will only remain if we anchor the idea of India in the ideas that made India for that you will need scholarship you won't need bravado you know there are n number of people who say that suhail lives his life large like a like a Malya of the corporate world oh you love your parties you love your you love your friends you love that that high profile lifestyle that you led there was", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-40", "text": "that that high profile lifestyle that you led there was there was nowhere you got affected by this vocism at any point of time to be correct no so two things number one I live within my means obviously I don't even have I don't even have point zero zero one Pisa of debt when I say debt even my credit card Owings number two what is the harm I'm not cheating I've not stolen anyone's money I've not done a single deal I've not fixed anything I'm abusing most people on television but people also realize that in friendship it is always unconditional now in my house people come from different dispensations you would have an artist you would have a musician you would have a philosopher you'd have a poet so it's not that we are making any distinction and I wrote in my book in my first book I said never make clients out of friends only make friends out of clients because the day you start doing the former you're in trouble when it comes to uh", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-41", "text": "former you're in trouble when it comes to uh Bollywood when you talk about the uh the Bombay film right this whole thing about nepotism casting couch it's become again this cancel culture is coming in we're saying oh everybody is hiring only people who they know uh you know your uncle yours so this whole cancel culture comes in even there this nepotism bit as far as nepotism is concerned who would you much rather work with you'd work with people you know especially in the film industry to now say nepotism okay there's always been nepotism yeah if there was no nepotism there'd be no Bobby with Rishi Kapoor always is a I had Pawan Varma in the on the show uh and we were talking about this whole thing that we it's always been there so why not right uh it's always been there the yestopras and the you know the all the other producers it's been there in South India too correct in the South Indian film industry it's been there", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-42", "text": "correct in the South Indian film industry it's been there in bureaucracy too an ICS officer's law is there in law journalism journalism right in see in the private sector it's there agreed that you'd rather hire somebody you'd rather but then ultimately it's the balance sheet if if the son of an industrialist doesn't bring about the results he is not CEO anymore somebody else is jointed because you know your balance sheet has killed your responsible to your shareholders the same in Bollywood is that agar uh Mr chopra's son doesn't bring about three hits after a while he can't last a Mr bachchan's son if he doesn't bring if he brings flop after flop he's not going to get producers only it gives you a foot in the door look at Tushar Kapoor for instance yeah I have no comment on his acting abilities but he comes from great stock yeah jeetenderson ekta's brother yeah where is he yeah where is he yeah so let me tell you it might give you", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-43", "text": "yeah so let me tell you it might give you a foot in the door but it doesn't guarantee you a station in life but in bureaucracy in politics it does in bureaucracy uh see in English nurturing constituency let's imagine I have a constituency called X and I worked in that constituency for let's say 30 40 years and my daughter says I'd also work there she's perhaps seen me work she's walked the streets with me it'll be much easier for her than for an outsider a b you're absolutely right that's human behavior we love Legacy building but not anymore those those walls that's what I feel that that change is happening see when I started in journalism uh when I was doing Beach journalism at one point of time so who's doing the foreign beat or even now who does the defense beat children of Defense service officers who does the foreign beat Sons and Daughters of ifs ifs officers right they are doing that so what happens our uncle will", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-44", "text": "are doing that so what happens our uncle will give me an interview Auntie will give me an interview those uncles and aunties also they have gone to those exact same schools correct they have taken the civil services Network they have the same they go to Gymkhana Club India International Center they have that so regardless if you're a mediocre you will get the plum postings of London New York Washington DC and maybe one neighborhood posting which is considered a punishment posting in foreign office you'll get that if you're in the IIs and you could belong to the Carter where actually you should be in the Northeast no you will keep them but it's changing so here I am noticing that yeah see under this prime minister in our country it's changing but look at what's happening abroad here I mean you still think that in in Western democracies that look at England they decried Boris Johnson and they said not the old etonian Network and they actually said of the last 15 Prime Ministers since", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-45", "text": "they actually said of the last 15 Prime Ministers since Winston Churchill seven are from the same school so let me tell you the old boys network is still alive and kicking I mean if it's not crumbling anymore not at and it won't okay because ultimately if you look at it from a human perspective or a consumer perspective we are ultimately animals of social captivity we are expected so we are captive to our societal uh radius you will feel very uncomfortable if I suddenly why is there this bad habit in Delhi especially you ask someone to dinner they'll always ask you so that's very Delhi right but it's now uh Bombay too it's Bombay too it's it's it's now a national disease and the reason why they ask is because of their lack of either scholarship or their lack of the or their ability to talk they want to be in what I call comfortable zones or are they just nervous being seen with X or why because that they don't care because today they might", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-46", "text": "why because that they don't care because today they might be with someone that person might go to jail tomorrow they won't know okay so that they're not worried about they are worried about what we call a threatening environment so Howard Schultz who founded uh Starbucks when asked why did you create Starbucks he says this the office and then there's the home and then there's the third place so Starbucks was the third place where you didn't feel threatened you didn't have to live up to any expectations and nothing was asked of you so the concept of the third place still doesn't exist in our lives on a day-to-day basis so we are animal social captivity we are captive to social norms social behavior people even make pretense I mean I don't want to name names but I said that there are Bollywood actors who even charge uh to be present at a funeral now why would someone pay them because that person is seeking social acceptance okay today if you see the sense of entitlement is no longer", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-47", "text": "you see the sense of entitlement is no longer stature driven it is actually money driven if you see the people who frequent five-star hotels today from what they used to do 10 years ago because people are no longer ashamed of their linguistic skills or their inability to speak English amazing used to say this too where he used to say that when you say I mean he said so today people are not bothered today a guy who has the money knows he has the access earlier the guy who had the money may not have had the access and he'd feel a bit different today no one feels different so you feel that you know there was a time when Mr Modi came in I also remember the time when Mr ghatkari was you know became president of BJP and you know he used to drink uh he would sip it and of course everybody in Delhi used to deter and laugh about it because you know it was like oh my God what is this he's doing because Delhi", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-48", "text": "my God what is this he's doing because Delhi is a very uh you know yeah quick to judge on these things right where it is so common in Bombay to do this even an industrialist would do it in Bombay nobody would even blink but in Delhi you know these habits you know like you you as Pawan was saying the other day and he said like you know there's there's one guy who said oh he's HMT Hindi medium type or it's the worst was Urt Urdu medium type you know my God yeah so thank God I don't know whoever meets nowadays so this is no he's talking about his era in uh when he was in the Foreign Service so at that time which is true but you remember when you were in college also you know there was this whole thing about salwar kami's you won't you won't make it to the right crowd no no but I remember yeah College Delhi since Stephen I was walking to speak at the Mukherjee Memorial and I was", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-49", "text": "speak at the Mukherjee Memorial and I was wearing a khadi kurta with blue jeans and covert is butter covered his sandals and one guy says when I won the debate and I came down and I said see so the arrogance was stupendous yeah but in college to some extent men could wear jeans and kurta because there was still that leftist element to and the jhola there was still that thing that even if you didn't believe in leftist ideology you still wore it to get accepted leftist and this I noticed that it was only in some campuses where it wasn't visible which was maybe in Stevens and maybe in an IIT maybe in the technical colleges but across India that was the attire no longer no now see so a lot has changed in India number one let me analyze it just from a from a sociological point of view the Indian of today versus the Indian 10 years ago is 700 more confident number two we have decried a lot of the", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-50", "text": "number two we have decried a lot of the social mores see the matrimonial column adds in those days you have to be they would ask for is ifas Doctor lawyer today they don't care number three seven figure eight figure salary is what matters no and the sense of entitlement is gone there was no EMI in those days right you lived within your mind that's my worry also yeah because I'm seeing especially in Delhi the amount of social pressure on materialism is causing great damage plus parenting is being outsourced you know in our times if you took a tutor you are talking about materialism I think I mean everybody knows right and you yourself love your hedonistic life but I've earned it you've earned it so I wondered I'm happy driving I go in Autos if I can get an auto quickly in Bombay I would say that landsat because we've been there done that you know I drive a Kia and I'm very proud to people say oh you used to have a Maybach", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-51", "text": "to people say oh you used to have a Maybach what happened I said you know I find a care more comfortable which I do you probably not get kidnapped no forget kidnapped you have to be comfortable in your own skin okay ultimately you will not take anything with you where are you most comfortable Calcutta gurgaon New York I'm comfortable everywhere because I have great friends okay and I have great other interests so in New York I have my place to see in the evening I have the Opera to go to in London the same you have great friends you're not hanging around only with the NRI crowd you know waiting to have just your usual Indian food but the point is in order to be that you've actually got to be interested in things you know I still work towards finishing one book a day but people say how could you finish your book a day you have to make the time writing so you know half the Jokers will not know so they will say oh yeah he became this", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-52", "text": "know so they will say oh yeah he became this so he became that here we've been there done that for ages when buddy television began pardoned the the French when television began I was doing youth time debates then yes so it's no it's now people say oh you're on television I said yes now we are at the end of our lives on television plus we knew when to get off yeah in college 13 episodes and you were done and you had to work towards the next 13 episodes and in college the day I finished my graduation I never came back and uh spoke in any inter College event there were people who were taking part even during the maze because of the money or the fame or whatever I said no I've done my graduation I'm out it's very important to know when to stop okay because this is a Mindless Rush towards avarice of a kind that you and I can't Define the other thing is and and I bemoan the fact that this is happening", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-53", "text": "I bemoan the fact that this is happening the young of today are unable to communicate because of a lack of Scholarship today communication oh what's up bro how do you respond to that hmm how do you respond to someone not reading that's become a major thing but not clearance and not listening yeah hearing because that's a non-cognitive function yeah but they're not listening this and look at what's happening you and I both take part in these debates right satire is gone humor is gone no it's not there have you noticed not just satire and humor gone everybody is so scared that one sentence this way or that way can lead you can lead into an fir that there are many experts now who people viewers probably don't realize but they're reading it out of a computer they're not speaking they're like you speak and then I speak red I react to an anchor who you know or nurb or navika or whatever asks a question and I react to that question they don't they", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-54", "text": "question and I react to that question they don't they have a script prepared and they're reading it out because they are scared one they're they're not confident like you were saying because they come they're not sure right so they come prepared with this is what I have to say and I'm going to say this regardless of what the question is and I'm noticing this bizarre they're not all that erudite when you meet them in real life but on television suddenly they're spouting Shayari and they're coating and everything this is straight out of a computer which is kept in front of them and we don't realize it or viewers don't realize it but it's only when I meet them I realize my goodness this person really cannot speak he's speaking out of that either for fear of being misquoted or picked up by these so-called fact Checkers who are agenda artists who want to cancel you out of these debates or else you know I've never touched only I have not been canceled out because", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-55", "text": "touched only I have not been canceled out because frankly I don't care you don't care yeah a b everyone knows I have zero malice I have no agenda whatever's happened to me in my life I've always reacted in the same way that you let it pass because you know a fight never helps anyone viciousness and vitriol never help you I have often used humor or satire you know in television debates because I think everyone is so angry and the I wrote an article many weeks ago I called us us the Republic of Rage I said everyone's angry the guy behind is angry because you're not moving but how can you move with the traffic light is red I frankly get angry just waiting for 40 minutes waiting for my turn to speak that makes me angry nothing else now can you imagine so the other thing is that you know as in in our profession uh because the you know news moves so quickly I I've noticed journalists as they become older they keep", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-56", "text": "I've noticed journalists as they become older they keep bemoaning about the good old yesteryears that was true journalism today it's not that's rubbish do you feel like that in in your profession too no oh so two things when we did advertising my contemporary was piyush Pandey so push and I used to work on clients together it is a different ball game Smitha we walked in like lions what was my salary 6000 rupees a month but we walked in as we owned the place today an agency walks into a client's office as if they are serviled as if they are supplicants so I've always told people in advertising today and I left advertising 2006. I said you know when we walked in the clients would respect us because we had a point of view and if the client didn't like it we'd tell him lump it and we'd walk out today everyone is scared business will lose you only have to compromise on one thing not compromising the day you compromise you will", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-57", "text": "thing not compromising the day you compromise you will be trampled and you know there are people who will walk all over you so what I'm seeing today is different I'm seeing it different in advertising I'm seeing marketing change more and more people are not spending as much time in understanding consumer Behavior as much as they should people have stopped reading where is journalism today I think the journalist of today is under far greater pressure than he or she has ever been as you said of the immediacy plus you're being bombarded yeah when do you when was the last time you actually read a printed newspaper cover to cover because you didn't need to you're getting real-time news on Twitter and I'm you know uh if you're getting an overload at my age I'm finding this that I have the newspaper in front of me and I'm seeing the article but instead of reading it there I moved to my laptop and I type that because my eye is reading a typed word faster than a newspaper there you are", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-58", "text": "typed word faster than a newspaper there you are there you are so I was the only I'm the only person who whether in London or in New York you subscribers have instructions to give me printed newspapers but that's like we are dinosaurs who are still certainly we are the people who genuinely believe in the printed word yeah and and you're absolutely right I think journalists today have a far greater challenge yeah they have a challenge of being judged immediately they have a challenge of these so-called fact checkers one sentence can can make you you know like land up with 10 Firs you're sitting in Delhi you're sitting in a Noida studio and The Firs are in Calcutta the fir is in Jaipur but you know that now now the clubbing has happened thanks to the courts but that's after I know of several uh anchors what do you do it's a live debate right it happens this way and that way and for you just let a sentence go by because how much can", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-59", "text": "just let a sentence go by because how much can you concentrate no no and it's unfair this whole fir business you see we cannot use the justice system for pernicious purposes Justice you must read this brilliant book I know he's part of the right wing cancel culture but read a book called the idea of Justice by matthiasen in that only one statement is very relevant to what you and I are saying he says ultimately Justice is about fairness and there's a difference between Niti and nyay Niti is when Smitha goes to court nyai is what she receives at the hands of the court so there's no point saying how Smith has been to the Supreme Court what is the Supreme Court given her in terms of fairness and ultimately Justice is about fairness so when you and I discuss all this this whole fir business we have to understand that are these Firs actually solving either a legal issue are they addressing an illegality that I may have committed or is it pure harassment it", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-60", "text": "may have committed or is it pure harassment it is pressure tactic so if it's harassment or pressure tactic it's sad I mean I was a sued for 800 crores uh by a particular company because I said something on Twitter it's another matter that it got sorted or you know went away so I'm saying we cannot allow ourselves to be prisoners of a pernicious justice system and that should not be the reason for you to be gagged yeah but again uh you could probably do an out of court settlement or you'd have a lawyer who can help you with you know with discussing with the client or you can you can even go to court and you can battle it out but what happens to an employee you own your company but what happens to an employee is that the boss turns around tread the line which is the cautious line you know so this is what is going to happen with journalism unfortunately you now will have like you know it happened about 30 years ago", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "b9595f31e208-61", "text": "like you know it happened about 30 years ago where you had the the marketing team sitting in editorial deciding on the pages correct the same way now you have the legal team sitting out there to see what can go and what that's sad yeah that's sad yeah so you know these are the the pitfalls of where journalism is heading towards anyway interesting talking to you thank you so much for giving us your time thank you thank you thank you for watching or listening into Ani podcast with Smitha prakash that was an interview with suhail said if you liked what you saw then please like And subscribe in whichever platform you saw this or heard this namaste [Music] thank you [Music]", "source": "SkzNRtty1uA"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-0", "text": "my daughter was going to Canada to study an advisory would like this would make me wonder I would probably burn up the phone lines with her every day Pakistan has been on a mission to revive the kalistan movement uh not merely in Pakistan but in UK and in Canada outrage is the dominant dominant emotion across the world the state government in Punjab or certainly central government there should definitely be an Outreach at the at the local levels to educate people advise them sensitize them about realities in Canada what they see in pictures what they see in movies uh Etc is just not it I mean Namaste Jai Hind welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash if your son or daughter is applying for College admission to Canada or if you were a student in Canada then the advisory by the Indian government would have you worried this is the advisory there's been a sharp increase in incidents of hate crime sectarian violence and anti-india activities in Canada the ministry of", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-1", "text": "and anti-india activities in Canada the ministry of external Affairs and a high commission Consulate General in Canada have taken up these issues with the Canadian authorities and requested them to investigate the said crimes and take appropriate action the perpetrators of these crimes have not been brought to justice so far in Canada in view of the increasing incidences of crime as described above Indian Nationals and students from India in Canada and those proceeding to Canada for travel or education are advised to exercise due caution and remain Vigilant Indian Nationals and students from India in Canada may also register with a high Commission of India in Ottawa or consulate generals of India in Toronto and Vancouver through their respective web websites or the madad portal madad.gov dot in registration would enable the high commission and consulate generals to better connect with Indian citizens in Canada in the event of any requirement or emergency this was the advisory put out by the government of India now this isn't the first time that India has issued such an", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-2", "text": "the first time that India has issued such an advisory Canada on the other hand has issued a sharp counter advisory warning its citizens when they travel to parts of India that may be unsafe and not fall for scams in India now this is supposedly a an advisory which had been put out earlier too but the sharp Focus has been the lackadaisical attitude of Canadian law enforcement authorities about attacks on Indians in Canada or people of Indian origin in Canada and that has made India nervous now a 29 year old Indian student was killed in a shooting incident in September this year in Ontario Canadian MP Chandra Arya tweeted about the growing number of attacks on Hindu places of worship and temples in Canada his tweet says vandalism of Toronto baps SRI Swami Narayan mandir by Canadian kalistani extremists should be condemned by all this is not just an isolated event Canadian Hindu temples have been targeted in the past by these kinds of hate crime Hindu Canadians", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-3", "text": "by these kinds of hate crime Hindu Canadians are legitimately concerned this was his tweet and then there is the issue of gangster crime organized crime which came into sharp focus with the killing of sidhu moose Wala one of the accused Goldy Brar is in Canada gangs and criminal organizations within the Punjabi Canadian Community have expanded their activities into Indian soil another long-standing problem is the kalistani groups in Canada an issue that dates back to the 1980s and is a festering problem the Indian middle class for decades have sent children to the U.S Canada and UK for higher education and better prospects but assimilation has been a problem especially for children who come from rural backgrounds in India and find it difficult to adjust to a different culture some of them work double shifts and are also studying to get a degree in a college to understand where the relationship stands that is India Canada relationship where does it stand now and should this issue be escalated to the Prime Minister level we spoke with", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-4", "text": "escalated to the Prime Minister level we spoke with indrani bakchi who is the CEO of ananta Center a think tank based in Delhi indrani was the Diplomatic editor for the times of India for several years and covered the ministry of external Affairs and has interpreted Global Trends with an Indian perspective here's my conversation with indrani bakchi thank you very much for speaking with us indrani my first question would be that you know this kind of an advisory is not something new uh it's happened before but do you think that it's it's kind of uh it's a stronger advisory as compared to the earlier ones that used to come and will it put India Canada really will put more stress on India Canada relations and how seriously should one take this uh if you're a parent if you're a student who's going to study in Canada or if you're already studying in Canada when this kind of an advisory comes out it just sounds it sounds very ominous uh thank you Smita and thank", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-5", "text": "sounds very ominous uh thank you Smita and thank you for inviting me such a pleasure um hey this is actually this is unusual the mea advisory that came out I think on the 23rd uh certainly unusual uh because uh we've had incidents before in Canada but um I think mea has or the government of India has sort of taken it on the chin ignored it uh sort of uh sort of in a disdainful manner so to speak but they haven't actually retorted with an um with an advisory an advisory actually is something that the state advises its citizens and we we believe that the full force of State knowledge understanding is behind that advisory um if you remember every time the U.S would issue an advisory to its own citizens in India it it used to be taken as a slight in in India and if you remember we used to do stories on this stuff um so this is this is clearly the state of the government of India expressing its disapproval um", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-6", "text": "of the government of India expressing its disapproval um in fact this morning I saw the Canadians have responded with another with an advisory of their own uh basically saying that uh you should not asking their citizens to not travel to Gujarat Rajasthan Punjab because the landmines because there were landmines over the last land mine in Rajasthan or in Gujarat I would like to know well there have been on the on the on the other side on the no band lands yeah but that was a long long time ago and uh but it also talks about terrorism across the country throughout the country the threat of terrorism throughout the country and um so clearly they are also they are not turning the other cheek I think in Rani sometimes I feel that it's a good advisory because if there are any of those uh kalistanis who are based in Canada who are planning to move from Pakistan to uh India via Rajasthan side of whether the Gujarat side of punjabs I will think again", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-7", "text": "Gujarat side of punjabs I will think again because there might be landmines you know I wish I wish I think they're made of stunner stuffs but uh but yeah so the but so yes it is certainly it is uh in a sense taking um the dis Indian disapproval up several notches um Canada's response in-kind and in in about landmines Etc uh say it tells me one thing that um I don't think Canada understands the depth of the problem that India wants Canada to resolve or to help to resolve uh I think they are looking at it as oh you know just another uh country kind of thing um so I'd say that this requires some degree of political intervention at some point because we you could get onto this spiral of I'm issuing advisory and you're issuing a counter advisory and when the relationship the larger relationship actually doesn't warrant it because there is a problem certainly and that is a big problem um if this was Pakistan I would have put this problem front and", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-8", "text": "was Pakistan I would have put this problem front and center but since it is Canada and half a world away we have to find a way to resolve this this and I think and I think uh it is imperative on Canada to actually try and understand the Indian thinking a little better you think the Indian thinking has changed uh now you know because uh there is a whole lot of talk that the Indian foreign policy has become more muscular or Indian policy makers even if you see uh Dr Jai Shankar's visit uh you know if you see the U.N uh statements if you see his statements in America when uh when he's called out America's Bluff regarding f-16s uh that you know what are you trying to say that you're not trying to I mean you're not fooling anyone when you say that f-16s are used for counter-terror not that it had any impact because secretary blinken was like blase about it right so uh but when India puts out this kind of an advisory I'm going to come", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-9", "text": "this kind of an advisory I'm going to come back to it that it seems like uh the Canadian authorities were tone deaf to understand that this is not this is not something that is going to be taken lightly anymore or it's not going to be ignored anymore or or just you know kept at the bare a perfunctory statement you know there is a uh there is a degree of tone deafness certainty in Canada um do you remember when uh um Justin Trudeau visited in April in 2018 uh along with that just palatwal who they had to then disinvite and they it it was an enormous embarrassment he didn't come as an official or something yes but he came with him he came with him and he was invited to two official events before he was disinvited yeah um and I and that tells you a little bit about the tone deafness with them in in Canada uh regarding the Indian muscular uh sort of response I would say the in Indian response in the last few years", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-10", "text": "say the in Indian response in the last few years has become more shall we say open earlier earlier we may have been we may have thought twice that you know we don't want to anger the Canadians we've got so many other interests with them um I think now we are putting our security concerns right up there on the table and making no bones about it you've seen this kind of a response I mean everywhere from Pakistan to others um we the the this government at least believes that security interests security concerns um are Paramount and we will raise them we will put them up at the table as much as possible I mean look at jaishankar even use the statement it used as UNSC intervention where he called out Russia certainty but he also called out China because China has been blocking sanctions on uh terrorists who Target India but operate out of Pakistan but particularly people like Sajid Mir so you are you are seeing uh a little more uh openness and a little more uh uh sort of out", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-11", "text": "openness and a little more uh uh sort of out there put it out there put it out there yeah kind of so you know you I've also covered the kind of things were done behind closed doors and then when there was an off the Record briefing for journalists we were told that candid conversation happened or India put forth uh in a strong manner or in a forthright manner but what happened in those conversations the exact words were never put out there but now we are probably doing it at both levels yeah we're putting it out there in the closed door meetings but being open about it and say and not shying away from saying that you know this this kind of a dichotomy of you know of saying everything is hunky-dory but actually not being there so do you think that yeah yeah well I think what's happening more and more about issues like this is they are not taking that Refuge behind uh of the record conversations in fact they're just putting everything out on the record", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-12", "text": "fact they're just putting everything out on the record and then waiting for it to fall where it falls and how is this falling it's not I mean it's had no impact right actually do you think that the Canadian response is just an Anodyne uh response which they do every year or advisory every year that oh okay like I see the Canadian response today is clearly a response to our response I see right but I mean I've spoken to many Canadian officials about uh where we are and so they put this line to us to me at least that you know we really want to uh get rid of these elements as well we want to get rid of these elements we would like a little more in information evidence from India so it struck me then that they were sounding exactly like the Pakistani yeah because you don't see a game we used to play we used to play the you have my dossier I have my your daughter your daughter cells thinner than mine mine is fatter than yours so add more files", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-13", "text": "mine is fatter than yours so add more files yeah and everybody and the pakistanis used to say even then give us more evidence give us more evidence that operates out of my country give us more evidence that Muhammad operates out of this country so we went through this entire cycle with Pakistan for years and as you remember correctly but and it seems to me that you know it is a strange in a strange way we are having a sort of a re replay of that thing only in Pakistan uh they would ask for proof whether uh you know dawood is there or whether any of the uh terror camps were there so you know radar imagery okay this that all these things where are the pictures of hafez and those kind of things but here the khalistanis are there parading it all correct and Goldie bra who was involved in the sidhu Moose Wala thing he's sitting there in Canada so we don't even India doesn't even need to give proof it's there and so that's", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-14", "text": "need to give proof it's there and so that's exactly the point you see the in fact I think some Canadian officials actually went to the Nia uh to say you know we would um give us more information Etc and uh but they don't realize our history and I don't think they know the depth of that history so uh Indian officials obviously blew them away and said what do you mean they said exactly what you said which is Goldie look at Goldy brush sit there there you know the referendum the the the real trigger for the Indian thing was probably the referendum uh the khalistan referendum that happened um and uh even though this I think it was the 16th or the 17th of September that the Canadian government actually told the Indian government that uh you know we are not we don't support this as they had done even in 2020 but the point is that it is actually happening under your noses and there was no attempt to to shut it down uh there are many ways people", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-15", "text": "to shut it down uh there are many ways people shut down uh things that are of interest to friendly countries and the biggest one that I would say is uh the the the the head of Huawei uh who was imprisoned in in Canada with no case in Canada but just because the Americans wanted her so she was in prison in a Canadian prison uh for two and a half years um and so it's that's not a that's not a reason right you can I'm but there is there is definitely I mean they hide under this thing about you know we are a democracy uh we allow all kinds of things to happen but clearly there are red flags that are being raised and these red flags come from a couple of places one uh is from a country like India it's not that India and Canada are unfriendly to each other uh we have fairly deep relationships um so you would think that in the interest of maintaining that they have gone they've sort of bent over backwards when Canada was wooing", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-16", "text": "sort of bent over backwards when Canada was wooing the Chinese uh to into sort of be sensitive in quotes to all of China's sensitivities it only I mean only when things sort of fell apart because of America that they had to imprison this uh Wang from Huawei which then resulted in two Chinese two Canadian citizens uh being imprisoned for exactly the same length of time in China I mean China really took the tough line which is you have my you have my person in custody I am putting your two of your citizens in custody you take one of mine I take two of yours is that maybe that's the reason why they're not doing it no I'd see you know we are not China yeah we would never be able to to do that and we and we shouldn't correct there is a there are certain uh I mean we have certain Behavior modes as well um which is why the huge investment by Canada into India correct because it's a functioning democracy correct and you know they", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-17", "text": "it's a functioning democracy correct and you know they know that their their Investments are safe their people are safe when they are in India uh you know another uh thing which um the this statement which says that a farcical exercise was held by extremists and radical elements supporting the so-called kalistan referendum in Canada and elsewhere this is what the external Affairs Ministry spokesperson said I mean clearly India is not going to ignore as I said uh you know the earlier way that oh okay so the kalisanis are doing this in in Canada so it's not impacting us but it is impacting India now because there's a whole you know there are events which are happening in India which are clearly driven by Palestine is whether it is coming via Pakistan or whether it is like a deliberate attempt in India you're seeing kalistani graffiti in India I mean since the 80s you and I have you know remember the 80s yes we we have gone through that when we were younger we've seen that", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-18", "text": "through that when we were younger we've seen that yes don't want that again happening yes but you know and you and therefore the role of Pakistan becomes is actually not highlighted enough I think uh if I think uh there was a Pakistan Embassy official who actually visited the two one uh the two gurdwaras that uh in in Vancouver I think just around the time of the referendum okay and if you remember uh the sensitivities when we opened the qatarpur corridor uh about uh khalisani elements using the qatarpur corridor then it was a serious uh security uh sort of con red flag that had been put up Pakistan has been using in fact for the definitely for the last few years Pakistan has been on a mission to revive the kalistan movement uh not merely in Pakistan but in UK and in Canada with where a large number of um sort of uh diaspora Punjabi Sikh diaspora live um in Canada it's it it makes it difficult also for two other other sort of groups of", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-19", "text": "difficult also for two other other sort of groups of people one is the groups of Sikhs who are not Allied to the khalistan movement but because they get tired they keep quiet because they also are probably under threat as well so they can't say anything the other is it it creates tensions between the Hindus and the Sikhs living in Canada um and that cannot be good for uh for Canada so you know this is something that we and and there is as you said there is a long string of events that we've been seeing in the in the most recent uh months and the last couple of years uh there was this attack on a Gurdwara in Punjab which is which was traced back I think the seeks for justice Group which is banned in India but operates openly in Canada um they um actually took responsibility for it um a different uh a different network and a different ecosystem uh was was witnessed when we saw the sidhu moose Wala murder so you know there are these", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-20", "text": "moose Wala murder so you know there are these layers and if you were Canada you would you would want to think twice about them the question is why does Canada not uh red flag these problems that might affect its relationship with India so so what are Justin Trudeau's political compulsions like does he have like we have here a vote Bank politics is that his uh political compulsion that he cannot take because he's got people in his cabinet who will not uh allow any kind of you know some kind of an action to be taken against the kalistanis certainly that is part of it um I mean these there is uh he has the he has his own vote Bank politics I mean to believe that vote Bank politics are in some in countries like you know poor countries with large population and diverse societies like ours that's true everybody has wood Bank politics I mean the Democrats have have it the Tories have it the the labor party and the Liberals in Canada have it so um and the", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-21", "text": "Liberals in Canada have it so um and the Sikhs are definitely a part of that some of those some of those Gurdwara some of the day now these are all wealthy people yeah remember the days are not uh sort of uh down in the down in the mouth kind of guys yeah but there are wealthy people in America also uh wealthy Sikhs in America and the gurdwaras have bhagat Singh uh and the same at the same time they have bindrawali in the same Gurdwara you you know both the pictures are there and there is even in some of the parades that are held there are kalistanis in that also but somehow they don't have that kind of political backing like they have in Canada well that is true because America is like India completely focused also on its own security concerns and you know it's not just 911 that but Post 9 11 and these 21 22 years the fault lines in the security in American society that could you know create security tensions for America I", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-22", "text": "that could you know create security tensions for America I think the the American system is sort of fully infiltrated through all of these the security Canada I think Canada is so it's an enormous country no people immensely wealthy uh all educated there is a there is an exceptionalism there okay yeah I mean we all talk about American exceptionalism or Indian exceptionalism but there is also this Canadian exceptionalism thing you know but we are this wonderful democracy that and this the thing is about this wonderful way before 9 11 kanishka bombing happened yes indeed and you would think that it it would hit them more no no because I mean go that I think kanishka bombing remains a blot in Canada and I have spoken to many officials Canadian officials who say that you know we cannot forget the kanishka bombing true uh I mean but cut to the 2000s uh large swaths of Canadian real estate was being given off to the Chinese who came in and bought because they didn't want to spend", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-23", "text": "in and bought because they didn't want to spend the money in their own country and they bought large swaths of land Etc in in Canada moved to Canada until they became a security threat so do you think that like you've given me the Nexus so you've spoken about the Nexus between Pakistan and the kalistanis it's a real Nexus Nexus do you think that like what you're saying is that if the Chinese are buying property they would be influencing politics too and you know there's a grand plan between the China Pakistan Nexus against India so you know to to use the fissures that exist in India already to make that larger and you know do you think that or am I being too much of an alarm is still here look uh we have no evidence right now but it is not inconceivable I mean uh if the if the points all match there's nothing to say that I mean China and Pakistan are collaborating in Bangladesh yeah so there is nothing to say that they are not they", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-24", "text": "there is nothing to say that they are not they would not be collaborating in Canada yeah uh so and so yes I mean I I would say that certainly that would be one of the things that the Indian system would would be very very uh sensitive and concerned about because you know we do have uh social Fishers we have uh there are security threats of variety uh of you know of of varying degrees and varying kinds um that ending government in India would have to be extremely extremely alert to right you know I'm going to come back to this whole students thing because the advisory was also about tourists and about you know uh students who are going to study there now I couldn't find a countrywise breakup in in Canada but it's estimated that Indian students make about 35 percent now that's a large number and given the kind of advisory you know parents who are sending their kids to America who sent their kids in sorry not America to Canada um they'd be worried right now how safe are", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-25", "text": "um they'd be worried right now how safe are Indian children in universities there and if if you were a parent who has a kid studying in uh in University or working in in Canada uh how worried should they be and what is the precaution that they should take in your view so just to give you some numbers um you know last year that was 21 uh Canada issued 217 000 student visas to Indians and only 105 000 student visas to China that is uh very interesting and just this year I mean and this is you know when uh when in the middle of it in the middle of covid when actually people were taking deferred admission or not going and things yeah and uh I think we haven't completed 22 but I think until until the first half of the uh year we've already sent 60 000 students to Canada right and uh which by the way is only second to the Americans I mean the Americans the at the at the top of the list India is number two uh so that that's just two but", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-26", "text": "is number two uh so that that's just two but to go back to your question yes of course you know I mean if I am a parent um and my daughter was going to Canada to study an advisory would like this would make me wonder I would probably burn up the phone lines with her every day um and uh but you know people who are uh from I would probably see the advisory the minute it was issued yeah but but I would imagine that in large number of parents uh may not see that advisory instantly or a large number of their children may not see that advisory instantly and uh how they would be able to deal with it or how they um manage anxieties and parentalings anxiety is a real thing as you know perfectly well so you know I mean you wouldn't have seen it because you know a large number of students or large number of people who go to Canada the Visa is issued yeah many I think more than 50 65 of them are from Punjab and some", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-27", "text": "50 65 of them are from Punjab and some of them you know come from rural Punjab who probably not up with what the mea puts out as an advisory sure so you know they come from from you know economically backward sections they go there to Canada they're doing double shift sometimes they're studying in the day in a college or in a in a vocational College trying to get a degree at the same time work so you know there's a lot of anxiety that these people are under anyway when they are abroad and funds are less right I mean the jobs are less the pressures are too much uh post covet there aren't enough jobs going for immigrants especially so how does one deal with this should they be advised about these things before they leave for Canada or should the Indian consulates and Embassy in uh in Toronto put out in in Ottawa Toronto Vancouver sorry the other places where there are a number of Indians should they be training them putting out advisories what should they do", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-28", "text": "training them putting out advisories what should they do well couple of things one uh I mean remember that for Punjab Canada is like the Holy Grail everybody I mean isn't that this temple temple in Punjab which has a an airplane on top which is sort of the the aspiration I mean it's kind of aspiration yeah become religion but it I mean we make jokes about it sure but it is a big thing for the Punjab for the average Punjabi to be able to they sell their land they you know they do all sorts of stuff taken terrible unsustainable debt to send children to to Canada right uh in the hope of a better life obviously yeah which is um now I don't know if you remember but I think it was last year maybe it was the year before uh that there were these uh videos of these young uh kids from Punjab who had fallen prey to uh drug rackets prostitution rackets because they just had to make ends meet and are their parents after", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-29", "text": "had to make ends meet and are their parents after sort of almost killing themselves to provide the money for the passage really didn't have anything anymore uh to give to them so it is a there is there are there are human tragic stories as well which is part of this whole state to state uh issue and so what should we do you know first we have to at least in India we need to understand the depth of the punjabi's desire to migrate to Canada it is beyond a joke right now I mean it is a that it's a real thing yeah there is what are the drivers and certainly we it the state government in Punjab or certainly central government there should definitely be an Outreach at the at the local levels to educate people advise them sensitize them about realities in Canada what they see in pictures what they see in movies uh Etc it's just not it maybe also like okay uh that to burst the bubble is another thing but also to teach them how to", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-30", "text": "is another thing but also to teach them how to assimilate maybe when you when they go you know that's one that's the next step first is to the The Next Step should definitely be a one-month crash course in assimilation in how do you integrate in Canadian society and something to that to that effect it is I mean sure I think the a mission in maybe they do some of it already you know uh the Indian Missions but certainly the Indian Missions should uh take up this thing about because you know these are kids like why why is it that it doesn't happen see even gujaratis have been going in large numbers remember the the family of entire family and they've all they were doing is being illegal immigrants into America part of that racket so there are rackets these rackets these immigration rackets are they include Canada to walk across from a Canadian from Canada across into some some of the you know the Midwest uh but you don't hear these horror stories of somebody being beaten up", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-31", "text": "hear these horror stories of somebody being beaten up or somebody being or a motel owned by a Patel which is being vandalized just because there are gujaratis yeah but you know I mean look there was a I think it was in May or June this year or just the other day there was this uh swaminarayan Temple that got yeah that got vandalized and but that's by the kalistan Again by the kalistanis and that goes to uh this uh the divisions between the Hindus and the Sikhs in can in in Canada the Indian origin one do you think that the that what happened in Leicester is similar kind of a thing or do you see do you see this kind of thing spreading now to other countries as well what happened so to if to to go back to my previous point the I'd say that if the Indian government in the Indian Mission has a duty to uh maybe keep tabs on these people on the students um the Canadian government certainly has a duty to make", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-32", "text": "the Canadian government certainly has a duty to make sure that the communities that live Indian origin communities that live that they should go out of their way to make sure that there is peace between these two communities yeah and uh I mean let us not let us not get into the blame game we know that there is a khalistan extremist Network there something like this if not nipped not there's no nipping in the bud anymore but certainly if it is not controlled or contained there will be responses from other parts other communities as well if you remember there was this one incident recently where it was a fast food joint and there was this man who came and started yelling at an Indian he was probably a South Indian because he had come you know the accent or whatever he got angry with him and you know you're a cow piss Drinker and you're a vegetarian and started screaming and yelling and there was no way to figure out it was only towards the end of his rant which was", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-33", "text": "was only towards the end of his rant which was a very very long rant when he said Indira Gandhi and things then people figured out that he was probably a kalistani and then you know post that event and they said oh he's a kalistani but initially it seemed like he was just an American who was screaming you know so that's that's exactly the point I mean you if the thing is it helps nobody if communities who live in a country um particularly who have their origin in a different country energy cannot get along it is but to to go to the York a very good question about Leicester whether Leicester has any lessons I'd say Lester has a lot of lessons for uh I mean they may not be the same and this the trigger in Leicester were a couple of different things uh it was uh supposedly whatever it was it was a cricket match it was a sadhvi uh visit and so but then that became an Hindu Muslim thing that became a Hindu Muslim thing", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-34", "text": "Muslim thing that became a Hindu Muslim thing and in India Pakistan thing this this could just be an India India thing right because that's just what it happens right yes it becomes very difficult for say a white Canadian or a white American to say tell the difference yeah tell the difference because they look the same probably because not every uh Sikh is a turban wearing seat right so they could be without turbans and the women you can't tell at all right but in the Indian women uh do women or the Christian Indian Christian Indian Hindu Indians seek they all look the same to anybody and they look the same to us too as Indians right so this this becomes an issue uh for for Americans or for Canadians to figure out what's happening so I I've met many Canadians who say like didn't this get resolved many years ago when the whole khalistan thing and you talk to them about it didn't this get resolved a whole and uh the same thing now Indians are saying the same thing", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-35", "text": "same thing now Indians are saying the same thing too that why has this started all over again is this it started all over again largely because we have a neighbor that is uh that is an inimical neighbor and it is it it it works for them to resurrect things like this because these are all low-cost proxy war uh efforts so but we recognize them the Canadians probably need to be you know probably we need a much longer deeper security conversation between Indians and Canadians to truly get the get to the bottom of this I mean at some point Canada will have to figure out that it's domestic politics uh interferes with its uh foreign policy you know we were talking about uh making um making Indians more receptive to understand the cultural uh differences and how to assimilate in the country that you are going to it also happens with some basic basic terms that we use you know they get misinterpreted so much for example um like somebody might just turn around and say oh I'm a pure", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-36", "text": "might just turn around and say oh I'm a pure vegetarian what does that mean exactly so when you go it's only those who are well traveled in India it's a very common term to say I'm a pure vegetarian it only means in India that I'm a vegetarian who doesn't eat egg also that hence a pure vegetarian so if you have cake fishes fish is vegetation right so a vegetarian could have so many interpretations had means a pure vegetarian is like I'm a see now you've complicated matters further right terms when you when you use that say Canada or the us or UK are you calling me impure and then even this I've seen this even in second generation Indians you know Indian American second generation Indian Canadian second generation Indian Brits the kids turn around and say what's this pure vegetarian are you being castist because they think pure vegetarian you're trying to say you're a brahmana so it's like oh are you trying to say that you're a vegan when you say pure vegetarian how", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-37", "text": "you're a vegan when you say pure vegetarian how do you make anybody understand this so this is a very simple yeah I don't know absolutely it's a there are and see so for some countries you don't need to have that uh sort of Education or sensitizing sensitization uh lessons perhaps in say America you don't you didn't need it indrani but now everybody's become hypersensitive well that's also that is everywhere in the world you know I mean outrage is the dominant dominant emotion across the world right now I cannot only tell you that my outrage is bigger than yours but it is and uh we find lots of things to be too outrage about but as I I mean you know you didn't have to worry about these things with say America you did suddenly you found you had to worry about uh integration and assimilation in Australia failure remember a few years ago we ran into a similar a huge problem on the student front uh so that again you know some degree of", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-38", "text": "front uh so that again you know some degree of sensitization is important because there are you know where as so during our time perhaps or maybe before us a certain class migrated because they yeah sure absolutely now you are it now the whole process is democratized yeah it is spread to at two parts of the country that maybe didn't have the same upbringing that you did correct and uh for them yeah it's uh uh I once had a uh sadar woman newlywed uh sitting next to me on a flight from here to to London and she she was fully dressed in her Bridal outfit and she said she said I said you played London and she said she said I said I said she said because she has been married off to a bartender in L.A and she was going from Roper District in Punjab fully as a bride to a completely new world I have no idea we've read enough books and we know what it is like I mean going with bags of sarees which nobody knew", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-39", "text": "going with bags of sarees which nobody knew that you have to starch them on your own and there's no starch and there's no start right so these are things you've read about uh you know but every generation of immigrants faces a new kind of Challenge and now I mean I think at that time probably in the 80s or 70s though that generation which went I mean I don't remember the 60s generation discussing with them but the 70s and 80s generation had a different kind of issue but it was not life or death but now it's become that it's become that serious so you know I mean really this government I mean the Modi government has a very strong diaspora uh Outreach and diaspora Outreach I think it's time for the the people managing that particular Outreach to make sure that your people are safe and and no it sort of arm them with tools of integrating in societies that they adopt um across across the world and yeah I think that's something that they should uh", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-40", "text": "and yeah I think that's something that they should uh they should take up uh you know you know I I saw the Canadian advisory and one of the things that really uh shocked me and I got annoyed but then I realized that maybe it's right is the whole marriage trap where they advise Canadians watch out because you could be tricked into marriage absolutely right so I don't want to think that about fellow Indians but it's true but at the same time I realized that I remember the time also in in UK the high commission was besieged and they still are besieged with Indian women who of you know who face Dowry related pressures you know it's even in the Pakistani women face this where where they're killed when they or honor killing honor killing honor killing is a big thing right okay but the whole honor killing thing Indian High commissions all over the world took it very seriously on educating the diaspora about these do you think that now it there's", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-41", "text": "about these do you think that now it there's need to even talk about not falling into you know the drug Trap by using you know Indians uh Indian students or Indians who go from poorer strata of society who go to Canada and fall victim to these gangs which are operating and use them as you know for drug mewling for prostitution and all kinds of rockets I'm you know I always hesitate to put everything at the feet of the government okay because if you look at our governments their government state capacity is pathetic okay in a very little State capacity I would say that communities that Community Elders or Community leaders should and should step in things like you know say the say temples have Community leaders for instance you know the swaminarayan temple they're a very very uh aware community and it would not it would not hurt them see these are your kids right these are your kids and frankly the we cannot say that everything should be the responsibility of the government so maybe the government could", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-42", "text": "the responsibility of the government so maybe the government could make them aware that now it's the time I think it's also families who have gone through this who need to set up support groups you know when you do have support groups for everything in this world now there needs to be you should have support groups for families in Punjab who send their children to uh to Canada and it have them talk to each other talk to parents and build build support networks Community Support networks to sort of keep their children out of trouble right and it is important too uh indrani like uh in in many countries which are wealthier countries of course uh schools have counselors College colleges have counselors and they counsel their kids when they it's that study abroad program right if they're doing a year of study abroad the council but in our schools I don't think we equip our kids we do only at a very uh only Elite schools Elite schools we don't we do there is no bandwidth frankly there are not enough", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-43", "text": "is no bandwidth frankly there are not enough schools in this country there are not enough teachers there are not enough counselors there are you know two to say that this would ideally you're right that ideally we should have uh this should be at the school level but no again there is a capacity constraint okay there is a capacity constraint and you're a 1.3 odd billion people with X number of schools which just do not add up so do you think that uh uh you know this the issue of uh kalistan and the issue of uh attacks on Indians this is something which uh which should now be escalated to the Prime Minister levels because you know Justin Trudeau and Prime Minister Modi did meet uh and should should it be escalated to that level for them to take it seriously enough for Canada to take it seriously enough you know uh um again I don't think that would help at this point it has to get it has to get to a certain point for it to get to prime", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-44", "text": "to a certain point for it to get to prime minister levels uh you know we when we talk about how do we resolve this I think we have to use a number of levers and one is certainly Community Society business you know as you said Can Canada Canadian Pension funds invest massively I mean just yesterday I think the Ontario teachers pension fund um said they would be investing some really large amount of money let me tell you how much um so and it would be five to ten percent of their teachers pension fund now remember Millions yeah billions billions yeah but remember that teachers pension Pension funds are the most that's where Pension funds go a lot of other Investments follow because Pension funds are the most strict uh scrutinized because they are taking money from teachers it's their pension that they are investing so we have we have the Ontario teachers pension fund but that says more about Indian uh you know India being a safe destination for investment it's actually Indian business you know remember these", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-45", "text": "for investment it's actually Indian business you know remember these are funds they're not bringing people here this is money so if India was not a safe destination for people this is not people people are not traveling right Aces only their money traveling if their money travels to a country if the country is volatile is so volatile that their people cannot come then why would their money come no I I know you want to draw distinctions yes I don't want you to hurt this section this is where you and I differ because money has other there are different metrics that Money Follows okay and that has to do with the stability of your financial system uh and your investment uh in environment it is to do with uh the areas that they invest in and look at what they invest in they invest in your new new age uh sectors you know your fintech your renewable energies your transition a lot of that cppib a lot of it is in their trans is in what they call transition funds helping companies move to a", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-46", "text": "they call transition funds helping companies move to a renewable Future these are all very uh um to use Hindi word okay um stuff but you know I mean that it it it would be we would have to use them too yeah for a sensitization at in Canada as well as you know Indians not time come to do that now I think I see Indians not going to tell Canadian investment we will not allow you to invest in India until you tell your people no that would be drastic insane and uh nobody is going to do that but I think at at popular levels too there has to be a greater uh sensitization of Canadian leaderships so you would today advise Indians uh that there is no need to panic but they need to be vigilant is that it I would say there definitely needs to need to be vigilant we there there is I don't think there is a need need to panic certainly but I would say that where the government should get in is to act actively call for uh", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "96e856933e77-47", "text": "should get in is to act actively call for uh a deeper security dialogue with with Canada I mean you know we are we are actually negotiating a sepa correct NFTA and that should be done pretty soon there are complementarities between the Canadian economy and ours there's huge opportunities uh uh on both ends and uh you don't want the security the security to be a wrinkle in your relations and at the moment it is a very big Wrinkle in the relations right thank you so much for speaking with us indrani thank you very much that was a pleasure thank you for listening in to a i podcast with Smitha prakash like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen or heard this namaste foreign [Music]", "source": "7nMNzTjbQZo"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-0", "text": "Congress is the pivot of any non-bjp Coalition yes y-e-s yes okay we are not going to play anymore is it repackaging of Mr organ the undoubtedly is it strengthening of the congress party undoubtedly is it to take on the BJP and set a narrative for 2024 undoubtedly prime minister has said in 2009 I was the one who introduced the cheetah project you're watching Ani podcast with Smitha prakash now today we speak with jairam Ramesh he has been picked by uh the Gandhi family presumably to head the media and communication uh cell of the congress party now he he came in when there was already a pretty active media and communication cell Mr surjywala was heading it so everybody wondered what is it that he's going to bring new to the table because you know um he has a history of being Rahul Gandhi's daddy's boy in the sense that he was he worked in with Rajiv Gandhi's team with Sam petrona he worked with", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-1", "text": "Gandhi's team with Sam petrona he worked with Manmohan saying Dr Manmohan saying he worked with Sita RAM kesri and you know everybody before Rahul Gandhi came onto the political Spectrum so one wondered what he's going to bring to the table more of the Old Guard but not really he's become uh it's a new Avatar of jayram Ramesh that you're watching you're seeing him being super aggressive taking on the BJP on on every media platform on social media on traditional media uh and he's he's very angry you know when it comes to the way media has been uh so-called cheating him I spoke to him uh during the course of the interview about you know this victim mentality that the Congress has with regard to how the media treats and he came on pretty strong it was a very interesting talk so listen in as to what jairam Ramesh has to say about the media about Rahul Gandhi about Bharat joro about his term uh when he was a", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-2", "text": "joro about his term uh when he was a minister about his years in in IIT in MIT what it was like to work with all the stalwarts of the congress party and now with his new Avatar in Bharat jodo I thank you so much for coming with us and talking to Ani podcast with Smitha prakash there's something new that we've started we're already late we should have done this years ago but uh now you know it's like there are so many formats so you want to get into every format so we say said well why not start with this now there are several questions that I have I mean you speaking to the media every day but uh everybody right that's my job normally I wouldn't do it correct you are uh like the youngsters of today even the young journalists don't know that you were you're doing this long ago you were an anchor well in 94 95 you know I I had to make some money you know I couldn't survive on a government salary and at the", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-3", "text": "couldn't survive on a government salary and at the end of the month have 200 rupees or 300 rupees left in my bank balance so I had an offer from Ananda Bazar patrika they were doing a new television program on doordarshan called business breakfast so they asked me whether I want to Anchor it I said sure So 9 all of 95 and the first half of 96. uh you know it was good for my bank balance you're doing a Morning Show which is the morning four o'clock in the morning like I'm doing now in the Bharat jodo yatra uh it's taken up at four my guests would come to the studio in safdarjung Enclave at six and we would go through the days headlines on economics it was economics and business remember it was 95 96 a completely different India it was it was an India that was opening up in India in which the corporate sector had still to become the Colossus that it has become today uh and everybody came I I you", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-4", "text": "become today uh and everybody came I I you know for for 18 months I did this program there's one critic who called you the Aishwarya Rai of yeah yeah you know all sorts of names were you embarrassed we told me that absolutely but it was fun it was fun we were getting different uh different people on the show getting businessmen business women getting economists getting government servants uh you know and did couple of political leaders it was not a political shows method it was a business business show yeah it was to highlight a business perspective and it was to take the day's morning headlines you know which you see in BBC and you know Channel 4 and all these other newspapers and just go over and try to look beyond the headlines to get to the real stories of the day yeah you just tweeted you know you saw that leopard picture somebody had tweeted in IIT and you talked about your years when you were in 20 years on campus never saw a leopard in my", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-5", "text": "years on campus never saw a leopard in my life never 12 years I was on campus yeah you see what has happened is just across the pipeline the water Pipeline and the IIT campus this is the Arab milk colony and then there is the borivali you know the national park human habitation is also coming human encroachments have taken place human habitations have taken place the leopards are moving out this is happening not only in poha it's happening across the country and the leopard unlike the tiger is a very sociable you know it's a very adaptable animal the tiger is a forest animal but the leopard is an urban animal so you'll find the leopard in gurgaon you'll find faridabad you know and they go after cats they go after chicken so you went to IIT you went to Carnegie Mellon uh and I mean there's a huge body of work which you are doing you did PhD I did all the things that you know normal middle class South", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-6", "text": "all the things that you know normal middle class South Indian family yeah families are expected so you did engineering because your dad said you're 100 yeah 16 uh I had no intention of joining IIT my father was a professor in IIT so he forced me to join IIT Bombay I'm so glad that I at the age of 21 when I got my degree I just I was never been there like that when people introduced me as an engineer I always correct them I say I'm not an engineer I'm somebody who is an engineering degree I got it by mistake what engineering mechanical okay so I gave the IIT entrance got in then I you know did everything that what IIT graduates normally do applied to go abroad so I've got a scholarship went abroad but then I did something which no IIT graduates ever did at that time and still don't do we just come back to India so I came back to India in 1980. you abandoned your PhD actually after one and a half years", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-7", "text": "your PhD actually after one and a half years I just discovered this is not my cup of tea okay I couldn't complete uh you know MIT yeah I would take four years to complete and then at the end of it I'd be an academic so just I didn't have the intellectual rigor at that time and I came back I had a good offer I came back in 80. so that's something that was somewhat alien to what my generation in the 80s coming back in the 80s and applying for a cooking you know for a LPG connection applying for a phone didn't have a car I had a barsati in Anand look you're married then no no no no 1981 okay and also you know we are getting to that promise you we you I'm just going chronologically chronology there's no connection between my life and about no you are a strategist I want to get to why you uh you've been picked to be the strategist for media for the Bharat jodo why has the Gandhi family picked", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-8", "text": "Bharat jodo why has the Gandhi family picked you I think you should ask Mr Sonia next time I am going to come to you to tell her to come to this podcast is I certainly request her I certainly tell her that I was asked why you have appointed me and you are the only person I would have asked this to nurse who picked you I would have asked you to VP Singh who picked you I would have asked Sita Ram kesri who picked you I would have to ask Dr Manmohan Singh who picked you I would have asked who picked you and now you're telling me I shouldn't go into your past no so the God has you know been kind to me no no the men in the Congress besides the Gandhi family have been kind to you all have seen your potential and please don't tell you what I'll tell you the Secret of My Success I was the first man to start using a laptop ah okay I started using a laptop in 1990.", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-9", "text": "ah okay I started using a laptop in 1990. I was probably the first man in government of India to have a laptop I had a small Zenith laptop it was made in Rajiv Gandhi's computer voice computer I was the first one who had a laptop okay it was a literally a laptop it was made in Taiwan got into India it seeps the Santa Cruz electronic processing zone so I was one of the probably the first and I certainly was the first to get an email address okay email address vsnl.com I was probably the first man to get a vsnl.com email address this was like 96. okay so yeah I mean the fact that I had a laptop I had a portable printer when I had an email address among all the dinosaurs who wanted triplicate me though why would you with all this American Education you would have got a good corporate job why did you oh no I never wanted to get into the corporate sector no I mean the one thing that has always been with me", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-10", "text": "mean the one thing that has always been with me I wanted to work in the public domain so that's why you know in 81 when I 80 when I came back I started working in the government of India and I worked in different I worked in the ministry of Industry then Dr Manmohan Singh recruited me into the Planning Commission with a couple of others so I worked in the you know various finance ministry so I worked in the government of India I was a what what is today what Mr Modi calls lateral service I was one of the products of the lateral service in the 80s Monte Carlo Walia for example myself we all joined laterally with the Indian lateral service and so in 90 what happened was when the change took place when VP Singh became the Prime Minister I just want to call on Mr Rajiv Gandhi whom I had known because I'd worked with Mr Sam petrota so he asked me what are you doing so I said sir this is what I'm doing", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-11", "text": "so I said sir this is what I'm doing you know and then he said well it doesn't sound very exciting why don't you come and work with me for the elections so I said elections are you going to call have elections soon so he said could be this was December of 19 uh 90. right so I started working with Mr Gandhi in December of 1990 and so that's how my political Journey started and uh May 1991 I was assassinated and you know Mr narasimha obviously I whom I'd never met in my life right no I mean original same state as you are okay she has to speak to your father in Canada okay but uh there is some connection to uh Andhra also I was an MP from Andhra for two terms from 2004 to 2000 uh 16. I was an MP for two terms that didn't bring you close to nursing around no no no no no no no no he wasn't parochial in that respect no no [Music] so I started working with him", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-12", "text": "no no [Music] so I started working with him uh and then uh then you know Congress lost power in 96. uh Mr chilambaram asked me to join him in the finance ministry when he was always this this kind of a bureaucratic rajya Sabha I mean that's the criticism that you've been around for 40 years but you haven't come for an election I mean I never wanted to fight an election why I know I mean first of all I don't have the resources to fight an election number one number two I don't think I'm cut out for uh 24x7 political life you know I have other interests in life I like to read I like to write I like to travel uh so and that's right is the most difficult job in our country it's a thing thankless job it's a 24x7 job and I've seen many of my colleagues you know and I admired their tenacity and I admired their endurance and I knew from day one that if I am in politics I'm going", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-13", "text": "one that if I am in politics I'm going to be a backroom political animal I'm going to be and you know I even I'm going to be an intellectual in politics although the intellectuals think I'm a politicians and the politicians think I'm an intellectual exactly now I didn't want to say this is the worst the worst abuse you can get in politics is normally you know buddhijiwi is supposed to be a sign of you know good Acceptance in fact politician calls you Buddhism you're too well read yeah too well read for politics because politics once told me either yes one interview or something that or you gave or somebody said that it was a comment that you make did passing that you know you probably you know the well-read people in the Congress don't find their uh upward trajectory very quick uh this was years ago you know it's it's you know it's tragic because in the 50s Indian politics was entirely different the Indian Freedom Movement was all well-read", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-14", "text": "entirely different the Indian Freedom Movement was all well-read people yes extraordinarily well read and they wrote books and they didn't have ghost written books they wrote books on their own you know unlike many people in politics who have ghost written books ghost writers these people Raja kabalachari nehru Bose Gandhi Patel all of them were all extremely well-read people and professional people that changed that changed somewhere in the 60s and 70s because and I'm you know I don't regret it because us Indian politics itself changed the nature of Indian politics changed uh it became more competitive it became more populist it became much deeper into the ground democracy became deeper isn't that what it should be no that's the way it should be because still the I would say till the late 60s politics was still sort of a you know aristocratic middle class well-educated people coming from you know well-to-do backgrounds professional backgrounds but that chain and I'm glad it changed because today if there is one instrument of", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-15", "text": "it changed because today if there is one instrument of social mobility in India it's not the media it's not the corporate sector it's not the bureaucracy it's politics its politics has given voice and identity to people from sections of society which have been discriminated and disadvantaged for centuries and yet at one point of time when you were asked whether you know you'll get another term in rajya Sabha you'd said the congress party is not going to nominate me to the Sabha I'm not a dual caste woman Muslim backward or anything I don't have a Godfather godmother tomorrow if I were to join BJP my chances of nomination would be probably much brighter maybe I don't remember that remark there are many remarks attributed to me okay you know there are many remarks attributed to Mahatma Gandhi for example which you never made or Lincoln one of the one of the most famous comments of Gandhi which he never made was that the world is enough for everybody's need but not", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-16", "text": "the world is enough for everybody's need but not enough for everybody's greedy never said that but we like to think that he said it okay so that's one of those comments that uh did you get miffed at times when if you didn't get a job you had to quit you because you didn't play to the gallery you didn't do the Jesus you decided see remember from 98 to 2004 we were down in the dumps and in 2004 nobody expected us to win least of all Congress leaders all senior Congress leaders barring Mrs Gandhi and one or two other people were convinced that Mr vajpayee was coming back because and you had to run the War Room at that time starting the War Room at that time me and Salman khushil were the only two people running the War Room it was a two rooms 99 South Avenue didn't which didn't have a toilet and which we had to go to the nearby cladurgus Hotel every time you know we had to use the toilet yeah and", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-17", "text": "you know we had to use the toilet yeah and um it was it was no not even khichdi the khichdi comes after remembering UPA is formed after but our entire campaign in 2004 and as Mr vajpai was asked once by the kawha so in his inimitable Style remarkeda this is a victory that the victors didn't expect and this was a victory that the losers didn't expect and the meteor also I think was not giving you much to nobody but you know we had done a we had done a opinion poll uh which we then selectively not planted but selectively shared with sections of the media which showed that the Congress could well emerge as the single largest party and I remember this there was shock there was consternation even amongst my senior colleagues how can the Congress you know be the single largest party but the fact is that we immersed as a single largest party in 2004. in 2009 of course uh we were the party in power I still ran", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-18", "text": "uh we were the party in power I still ran the campaign in 2009 but nevertheless it was an easier camp been because we were running it as a incumbent government and I actually to be honest with you I did not expect to get more than 175 or 180 seats my late friend and his colleague who worked with me Mr Ahmed Patel and I were comparing notes before the counting day and you know our most optimix optimistic assessment in 2009 was maybe 175 to 180 we ended up getting 2009 and 209. at that time 2009 and we were the second largest party in up we got 22 seats in up this was in 2009 just 13 years ago see now of course you're writing our obituaries so you know it's the moral of the story you never know arbitrary of the congress party and best laid plans of mice and men right in 2004 what the whole uh feel was that you know of India shining at that stage and you've worked with narsimara you were in the", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-19", "text": "you've worked with narsimara you were in the you were in OSD at that time right you've worked in that you knew that uh you know they were talking about um the India shining thing why couldn't you at that time say that hey we had the 1991 reforms we were the ones who ushered in somehow the congress party doesn't Embrace that much starter we knew it is a non-starter we did dipstick Service uh and we and we found that there was a lot of uh you know there was a lot of disappointment that their people's lives had not changed and there was this big image being portrayed of India shining and in fact this line came from a Vox pop that we did with a with a group of people in sonipat one you know in his own accent said India shining us don't you feel that I mean it's only now like see when nirmala Sita Raman says that they were that you know the reforms were incomplete or something then you get up to", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-20", "text": "were incomplete or something then you get up to defend or not you as such but I mean the congress party it's never given due to that period and never oh that's not exactly true but remember just the open Columns of maybe this party is basically a center left party it's not a left of center party it's a center left party it's traditionally been a center-left party and there was ambivalence in the congress party on the 91 reforms there was ambivalence and Dr Manmohan Singh a tremendous problems navigating these reforms not just the left parties who were in The Coalition within the congress party the majority of the Congress MPS were very ambivalent on the reforms that you know were introduced it took Dr Manmohan Singh's intellectual ability and manmo and Mr narsimras political skills to help navigate these reforms in 91 and 92. now once the reform started showing results then what started off as compulsion people then became convinced you know narasimharav didn't believe in these", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-21", "text": "you know narasimharav didn't believe in these reforms in 91. he you know we would discuss every day and he would say this is my compulsion but by 93 Mr narasim Rao would go to Davos and say this is my conviction so compulsion becomes conviction not right when you see that people have benefited results were coming out you know for investment was coming the headlines were good kind of confused as to where you stand because of this but at the same time you your anti-bt brinjal you were anti and your your whole tenure as environment Minister you you talk about anti-mining activities that mine is mining it doesn't so where do you stand I can't figure out are you naxal and extreme left ideology I don't have an ideology I'm not extreme left I'm not centered right either I must I'm an extreme Centrist extreme Centrist and I think what is Extreme Central extreme Centrist is you try to find the middle ground at every point of time you find the", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-22", "text": "middle ground at every point of time you find the middle ground and if you don't find the middle ground there are some times in which you don't find the middle ground then you go by the book so the reason why I threw the book at vedanta on name is because they had violated every single environmental law the reason why I threw the book at lavasa uh you know although lavasa had a lot of political backers is because lavasa never had any environmental clearances the reason why I threw the book on BT brinjal was simply because that the scientific Community itself was not convinced that BT brinjal was in India's best interest so I came out later right there is a jayanti tax and there was the environment much later but I don't want to talk about that but I can tell you about my tenure today uh well today we are talking the entire country is excited by cheetah and our prime minister has said in 2009 I was the one who introduced the cheetah project I", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-23", "text": "was the one who introduced the cheetah project I saw your Twitter put out the letter to show that the Prime Minister stratified right I'll tell you why it didn't Rectify I went to South Africa in 2010 I identified the place where we were going to get cheaters and some people went to the Supreme Court because you were bringing the lines and the Cheetahs to live in the same place they will live one day mark my words mark my words lions and cheetah if you have been to East Africa lions and cheetahs share the same habitat yeah but lions and cheetahs shared the same habitat unfortunately the lion in India is not it's become a matter of Pride it's a matter of politics nobody one person does not Supreme Court has said we must develop a second home for the lion the second home for the lion was Kuno Kuno was developed as a home for the for the geared lion but but one man says no no this is Gujarati asmita I", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-24", "text": "says no no this is Gujarati asmita I will not let the lion go from gear and that's why you know that Kuno had to be developed as a cheetah habitat now the point I'm making is that this again is an example uh the people went to the Supreme Court and for Supreme Court for seven years why would the Supreme Court of India have to decide whether cheetah should be introduced or not it was a forest bench this is a matter of fact all environment related issues not when I was Minister not when I was minister the reason why it goes to Judiciary is because the executive is not functioning it this is the job of the executive the job of the Judiciary is not to take decisions on behalf of the executive it is to interpret the laws not to implement the laws so uh there was another thing that had happened was that when I think uh I don't recall exactly was when uh you were castigated at one point of time for bringing in the uh", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-25", "text": "at one point of time for bringing in the uh the Chinese Telecom uh you were in China and you said that the home Ministry is being extremely we should we should have we should be more pragmatic in Hinds exactly in hindsight do you by the way I worked very well with the Chinese on the climate change negotiations I set up the basic Group which was Brazil South Africa India and China and we worked very well together it was a different China it was not it was not it was uh prime minister bow I know of course the president but the premier was we worked very well I went to China three times a year the Chinese came here three times a year we met in different parts of the world and we collaborated at Copenhagen we collaborated very well look the bureaucracy Chinese change later the Chinese changed later and the the dominant Paradigm of we we have our differences but let's set our differences aside and let's work out areas of cooperation was the Paradigm that was", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-26", "text": "out areas of cooperation was the Paradigm that was set in December of 1988 when Mr Rajiv Gandhi and dung Xiaoping met now unfortunately the Chinese decided to break that Paradigm in 2020 and today that model is broken so we have to reset our entire relationship today if you were to ask me today if you were to ask me would I advocate Chinese investments in India I would say no but there was a time when I said let's get the Chinese let's let Indian investors go to China I remember TCS I remember Infosys orobindo Pharma Tata steel Apollo tires I went with them to China so let's I said investment is a two-way process that Chinese companies come to Huawei came to Bangalore exactly came to Bangalore I was a user of Huawei Huawei had a tie up with Tata Telecom at that point of time so there was a time when I advocated that's how they were trying to get their interests Indians also should do the same thing no so Indian Investments", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-27", "text": "also should do the same thing no so Indian Investments also were being promoted in China Chinese Investments were being promoted in India but in today's environment you know my approach to China has changed you know I wouldn't Advocate the same approach we have to get the politics of our relationship back uh on on the track it was before March 2020. March 2020 was clearly a turning decisive Turning Point yeah things have to be reacted yeah absolutely we have to go back I mean you can't have a situation where you know the status quo entity has been Disturbed unilaterally okay let me get now to the present yes yes how did you get picked uh to be the general secretary foreign [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] and we were being you know attacked we were being attacked by the BJP we are being attacked by our own colleagues like-minded parties of course we were the favorite Target of the media so you know but then when you keep losing it's not targeting the party", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-28", "text": "when you keep losing it's not targeting the party huh get this I'm not I'm not speaking on behalf of the media but generally when when the party doesn't even want to fight when the party doesn't even want to save a government which is in the doldrums because of various Mecca Nations which are happening the leadership doesn't even try then will the other parties will the media will writers operate editors whatever will they not write and say and then the Congress says bashing is a favorite pastime not only for right-wingers unfortunately Congress bashing has become a favorite Pastor immune for liberals okay and even for so-called secular commentators don't you think because the Liberals get irritated very easy target congress come on can you imagine in this country it is being an easy target when is it really easy target it's a very easy target you try targeting the BJP and you will be finished but the BJP used to say the same thing and you've been in politics the Prime Minister", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-29", "text": "thing and you've been in politics the Prime Minister you tried targeting the home minister did you be finished could anybody Target Mr chidambaram when he was home minister in the media he was oh come on operations anybody the only person a mythical operation greenhunt he was accused of he was accused of could anybody Target Mr Prana Mukherjee could anybody Target Sonia Gandhi when the UPA was in power servant of reliance he was called you know reliance Reliance Reliance Mukherjee Reliance Mukherjee so you think it's not happening with adani Ambani today you guys are not no no what is it the congress party is doing it also in those days there was no social media if you remember this is a new phenomenon where this whereas the point is basic point we are living in the world of jio right you know what I mean so no I don't know our policy is though no that is not the policy of the bjb BJP is only jio no", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-30", "text": "policy of the bjb BJP is only jio no mysterious when somebody put a Punjab on fire that you don't talk about of course it was talked about no no come on who criticized the RSS and the BJP for that do you know that when this this study on fire came up right if you remember Rajiv Gandhi's time there was this scorpionizing yeah read if that whole campaign that happened and at that time there was a rethink let's go back to the question that you had raised you know we're getting off into 20 different directions go back let's go back to the question okay fundamental differences that she's easy to bash the Congress because the Congress doesn't bash you back the con there is there is a certain degree of liberalism in the Congress still because maybe there's a truth it's not the truth it's just there it's the approach of the Congress suppose no that's why I've from 17th of June I have adopted a policy you attack me I'll attack you you", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-31", "text": "a policy you attack me I'll attack you you try to defame me I will issue a notice to you I will if you are if you are going to be aggressive I'm going to be double leg super aggressive so I am not going to take it lying down now unfortunately that's not that was not my policy before but in the job I am in I have to set a certain pattern I have to motivate the youngsters in my party um foreign [Music] I don't know act act a for regression C for conciseness Brothers foreign foreign I have to be by the way that's my job no why is a communication person's job Leader's job is to manage everybody right my job is to communicate okay if I do not communicate in a manner that induces and infuses confidence in the party worker in the party colleague I'm not doing my job frankly and I am not communicating my first Target of communication is internal it is to educate our own people inform our own people and choose our own", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-32", "text": "own people inform our own people and choose our own people and then they will develop the courage and they will have the instruments to take on our political opponents the number of seats that you have in Parliament you certainly punch above your weight you know you're there in all TV debates you're there in the social media you're everywhere so why do you say to some um this victim mentality have you seen the way anchors the way they go after everybody have you seen in we've had to we have had to boycott three channels right now we have removed the ban on one one of the three channels but the on the other two channels we have not driven what do you get by boycotting if you're not allowed to present your point of view if you are there to be insulted why go if see anchors are no longer anchors in this country anchors have become partisan players in the debate I can understand if you're an anchor your job listen to you listen to him listen to me and", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-33", "text": "listen to you listen to him listen to me and you know then allow each of us to have a debate and the anchor itself himself or herself becomes an aggressive participant and he wants to bash up everybody else who has a different point of view I don't think that's fair so you think the format of Television is has broken complete it's a it's a it's a it's no longer an honest debate it's no longer an informed debate it's the anchor trying to express anger it's not anchor it's anger you know that's all is and so is it an anger management part of a communication job but I can't manage incidentally we have removed the ban on one of the three channels which we were not going to we've removed the and our debate our spokesperson are going on Z even though z may be critical of us I don't mind if times now or Republic TV are critical of us I don't mind let them be critical but they must be fair means about giving you enough", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-34", "text": "they must be fair means about giving you enough time give me give must give us enough time they can't make fun of us they can't go after our spokespersons they can't run down our leadership and the language that you use also has to be somewhat dignified if you are also going to be descending to the level of the gutter that's not enough that doesn't make for a proper debate I don't like I don't like boycotting any channel frankly let me tell you I do not like boycotting anybody I like to listen to people who are critical I like to listen to you because your channel is always critical of my party so I like your your correspondent I like to listen to him I talk to him so I I don't want to collect only you know language on and yes people around me see us also but you have to give me you have to move one step ahead you have to take one step forward so I am I'm sorry to say that but you know we", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-35", "text": "am I'm sorry to say that but you know we are continuing I agree with you okay fine the channels I'm going to get out of but I do understand that uh you know that you you are miffed with some of them I get them with you also okay a lot of our people a lot of our senior leaders our spokespersons when I went to column when when I went to uh you know who's covering everything I was saying the first question I asked the first tweet first thing in the morning we always do your press conferences we always do your interviews even I can say that we have interviewed Priyanka Priyanka Gandhi twice twice we have interviewed one in the uh covet situation we didn't have a role at that stage and then secondly during the up election and it length and it was very lengthy showed but yeah foreign [Music] you were doing nothing so what do you expect if there is rigor mortise which is setting in in the party what do we say", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-36", "text": "is setting in in the party what do we say oh in action in the party that's news can we do that right it's only when you guys started moving that it became a story you're getting up in the morning at 6 30 and starting to move when all other political parties are sleeping so it's news I'm glad right I'm glad you've woken up so glad you have woken now right now let me get to that who decides who's meeting Rahul Gandhi and why did that meeting with the pastor happen Pastor was an accidental waiting it was no it was not a planned interaction at all these interactions are decided by the local pccs I see the decided by local leaders we can't sit and decide all we have said is that we have the first phase is from 7 to 10 30. so from 10 30 to 12 Mr Gandhi will relax will relax at 12 o'clock they have lunch it's from 2 to 3 they have an interaction four o'clock we start", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-37", "text": "to 3 they have an interaction four o'clock we start walking again till 7 30. so we have seven hours of walking we cover about 21 22 kilometers now in that particular instance what happened was after he addressed a press conference he went back to his room and while he was going back to his room there were a bunch of you know local that we the yatri was had was spending time at that church premises because the church premises was big it was a big Garden there was a big you know Courtyard so they said please can we have a discussion can we just have some tea for five minutes on the all his innocence he said fine and one guy was not supposed to record this interaction record it happens to be this pastor and then he made you know highly objectionable comments which were made even more objectionable by the media and then we immediately put out the video so which which debunked this whole thing so these interactions take place they're not scripted they see he", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-38", "text": "interactions take place they're not scripted they see he is the morning part of the yatra draws about 5 000 people they're not sanitized the interactions draw about 200 to 250 people they are not sanitized the second the part of the yatra which is from 4 to 7 30 draws 25 to 30 000 people they're all sanitized people are coming on their own now the only thing that can be sanitized is this formal interactions you know with students and yeah that after what happened in the first two days we are now taking a little more care for example now we are not allowing our interactions to be recorded we record it and we release the audio or the video as the case may be in this type of a program where he is meeting not only he all of us are meeting hundreds and hundreds literally hundreds and thousands of people it's impossible to outsave for for each and every individual right then what do you say about this whole thing that it is just basically repackaging of RG and", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-39", "text": "that it is just basically repackaging of RG and it is to motivate um to motivate the Cutters of the Congress rather than the the esoteric term of Bharat jodo no no it is a it is about a judo campaign in the context of the result of the policies of the Maori government which is leading to economic inequalities social polarization and political centralization that's the that's the political part of the Bharat Judo which is that you need Bharat jodo because Bharat is being told and Bharat is being told as a result of the ideologies and the policies of the government or particularly of the Mr modi's government and the RSS which is leading to in Econo economic inequalities which is leading to social polarization and which is leading to political centralization and that's why you need Bharat jodo the other objective which I am not fighting shy of admitting and saying it on every occasion it is to strengthen the congress party it is a mass contact program for the", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-40", "text": "congress party it is a mass contact program for the congress party which is after a long time has come on to the streets the district at the Block Level at the district level at the state level workers or coming out in hundreds and thousands literally and getting a new sense of participation so you don't see Congress happening one minute second part there's a third objective of course it's a new Mr Rahul Gandhi who's being seen day in and day out his endurance his his patience his uh his ability to connect with people his willingness to talk of course he's listening he's not giving sandesh like some others do every time they speak so these are the three objectives there is a political objective there is an organizational objective and there is an individual objective there's no doubt about it I'm not running away from admitting it now Mr Gandhi is very clear that he's not leading the Bharat yatra and you know he is you know one of 120 but I keep telling him that", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-41", "text": "know one of 120 but I keep telling him that the entire public focuses on you uh the media's focus is on you media doesn't want to interview me media wants to interview you right so he knows it but he is at pains even in the press conference at nagercoil he said when somebody asked him this question look I am one of the 120 people who are going to complete the 3700 kilometers but you know I understand that all of you are interested only in my movements I mean for example nobody else will be interested in what I am wearing or what I am you know what my shoes or my t-shirt t-shirt how I am sleeping where I am sleeping and all those things so there is this there is is it repackaging of Mr organic undoubtedly is it strengthening of the congress party undoubtedly is it to take on the BJP and set a narrative for 2024 undoubtedly what narrative is this for 2020. this narrative is that these are the three big", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-42", "text": "this narrative is that these are the three big challenges that India faces that the result of Mr modi's ideology and his policies is economic inequality is increasing polarization is taking place and is intensifying and political centralization is resulting in States getting weaker constitutional bodies getting weaker and the Constitution being ignored in more instances than these activities I want them to argue on our narrative I want the BJP to attack us on our narrative but they're attacking us on our t-shirts is this on our containers is also the uh one of the things that crappy exchange are we having with the BJP on a day-to-day basis I don't understand you you take objection I think is that lowest common no I mean it's ridiculous I become a political debate I have said this on when I responded on the t-shirt and the container debate and something else I said look these are the political objectives of the Bharat jodo yatra I am prepared for a debate on a daily basis and then", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-43", "text": "prepared for a debate on a daily basis and then you have this uh you know jhoot Ki Rani saying that he never he went to kanyakumari and didn't go and visit Vivekananda Memorial we put out a video he started Memorial do you want to reduce the debate to this this level of falsification is it is it also a message that you're sending out to the other political the non-bjp parties that uh that you know that you are or your party is the one which is going to be leading your fight against yes yes y-e-s yes okay we are not going to play anymore opposition Unity without a strong Congress is not possible so far the Congress has given more than what it has taken in any Coalition agreement Coalition means give and take Coalition is compromise I'm sorry to say that many parties like-minded parties have grown at the expense of the Congress we can't allow this to happen Congress has to be strong and the Congress we are not are you if you're asking me are", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-44", "text": "we are not are you if you're asking me are we doing this yatra for opposition Unity answer is no we are doing it for strengthening the congress party which we believe will be in the benefit of opposition Unity if and when this opposition Unity moves take complete shape in the run-up to 2024 right if and when that's not at the back of our minds opposition Unity everybody working on but everybody is working on leading the moves towards that you know we are not interested we are not talking of opposition Unity right now we are interested only in strengthening the congress party we are not interested in trying to project the Prime Minister for 2024 why we're not because our elections are not a beauty contest between individuals it's if the party is we sounds very uh catchy but it does become personalities because you people have made it that way but hasn't it we have political parties political parties have poll symbols they have manifestos they have organizations they have mobile of course they have faces", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-45", "text": "have organizations they have mobile of course they have faces yeah of course foreign what did I say I said our elections are not a beauty contest between individuals they are a choice of political parties so political party May it is headed by individuals not headed by elephants I know individuals who've been in the Congress who have lost and who have gone to the BJP and won why the same individual who is lost in the BJ in the Congress has won when the BJP ticket why because people are voting for The BJP people are voting for Mr Modi I'm not I'm not denying that fact people voted for Mr vajpai people voted for Mr Rajiv Gandhi people wanted it's a mixture of both party organization party ideology party symbols and individual leadership right now our challenge is to strengthen our organization bring it to a level of preparedness give our party workers a sense of belonging a sense of enthusiasm and a sense of we can do and we will do you become you know in spite of", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-46", "text": "will do you become you know in spite of them led by opposition parties that's what I'm saying yeah that's what I want you cannot be led sorry when I say led by what I meant to say is that we cannot we cannot dance to the tune of somebody else okay we are the Congress is the pivot of any non-bjp coalition anybody who thinks that the Congress is not going to be the pivot I'm afraid is living in a Fool's Paradise so it's a clear message for kcr it's a clear message foreign government I was Mr chidambaram was a finance minister I was his advisor and I knew I know what problems with David in the third front I've also worked I was a minister in a UPA government the upo is a different type of government it was not a third front government although the CPM kept out you know in Europe but by and large it was a the Congress was in and what gives stability what gave instability to David gowda's government was", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-47", "text": "what gave instability to David gowda's government was the fact that the Congress was out what gave instability to Chandra shekhar was outside report yeah that's what I mean that's what I mean but that's because you guys chose to upa-1 and UPA 2 was the fact that the Congress was in your priority is to just to strengthen congress party till 2024. this is your one first purest objective is must get must our first Milestone is we must reach 150 seats that's our first Milestone our second milestone will reach and what about the Congress presidential election if we have this podcast a week from now you'll know who the Congress president is you called me back on the first and we can discuss on the who the Congress president is right so that's the agenda you come back no on the first if there is no election if there is an election you call me back on the 19th and we can have a discussion but this whole thing I mean Rahul Gandhi keeps saying that", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-48", "text": "I mean Rahul Gandhi keeps saying that you know there will be an election and I'm not the one because everybody he's been saying and and then if anybody wants to contest if anybody wants to contest he's welcome I was sitting in trivandrum press conference next to one potential Contender and I was asked this question so I turned to the point why don't you name him I turn to the potential Contender and says you know we're a Democratic party whoever wants to contest can contested contest see I'll tell you you remember that period let me tell you in 137 years we've had elections only on four occasions 1938 when netaji Subhash Chandra Bose defeated Gandhi's candidate 1950 when purushottam Das tandoned supported by Sardar Patel defeated supported by jawaharlal nehru 1997 when sitaram kesri contested won against pilot in 2000 when Sonia Gandhi defeated Prasad we are the only political party which has a system for electing the president but why but once", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-49", "text": "system for electing the president but why but once again we're not a party we're not we have not always elected a president we have elected elected a president only four occasions in 137 years but we are the only party that has provision and as and has the system for electing the election I believe my personal belief I I have said so and I don't mind repeating it I am a great believer of the kavaraja model of management which is to find to talk to everybody find a consensus candidate this is what cameras did in 1964 this is what Cambridge did in 66 this is what cameras tried to do in 67 and you know in 67 there was an election but of course there was a compromise soon thereafter so I believe that this consensus creation model is a better model than the British model now today the result of it is in the British model you have truss lysters and all her supporters and Rishi sunak and his supporters are completely out it's a winner take", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-50", "text": "his supporters are completely out it's a winner take all model the consensus here the winner is going to be Rahul Gandhi regardless of who is if he's not Mr mother mystery has said very clearly there is no writing candidate you cannot write Rahul Gandhi on the uh you know on the ballot form the ballot form will only have it's only going to be Rahul Gandhi regardless of who becomes president right right you wait till the first look at it for the next five and a half months is going to be on the Bharat jodo yatra next five and a half months this is going to end only in the year so whoever comes in he will be the president for that note first you wait till the first look uh it's going to be the Gandhi family all the time no the controller occupies the Gandhi family occupies a special place in the Congress it occupies a unique place in the Congress doesn't the RSS occupy a unique Place uh in the in", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-51", "text": "the RSS occupy a unique Place uh in the in the business it's just that the people keep changing in the RSS right and people keep changing in the BJP but people don't change in the Gandhi family it's the family right I don't understand I don't frankly I don't understand the distinction that you're drawing the family has given the country three prime ministers right the family has an unparalleled record of service to the party and to the country the party in its wisdom the party because of its belief has decided to give the family a special place in his scheme of things I welcome that and it's a it's a reflection of reality the family has the family has contested election has lost election Indira Gandhi lost in 77 she was re-elected by the same electorate in 1980. Mr Gandhi was rejected by the electorate in 2019. so this is not this is not anmol Ambani or you know whatever Isha Ambani who cannot be will be rejected by the shareholders that's a private Enterprise", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-52", "text": "be rejected by the shareholders that's a private Enterprise so let's not even get the private Enterprise built on public resources so don't draw this distinction don't draw this distinction in private in public what I'm saying is okay in in the public domain there's a certain sense of accountability people can reject you people rejected Indira Gandhi people have rejected in Amity have rejected Mr Rahul Gandhi we can argue about whatever sheets in a private Enterprise whereas in a public so the Gandhi family has a unique place in the congress party they will continue to have are you if you're going if you're telling me that they will do backseat driving okay that's what you're saying whoever is the Congress president in Punjab huh you are not privy to uh neither am I privy to all that certainly not you if I am not privy you can't be privy yes sir the there are processes that go have been gone through before you know these decisions are taken these are not instantaneous", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-53", "text": "know these decisions are taken these are not instantaneous decisions that take it taken now if fear that you are expressing that whoever comes on this is bharata and Lord Rama is somewhere else he's in the ayodhya uh he's in the you know yatra he'll finish the yatra and then the padukas will be removed and he will you know I said you say shankaracharya you said it just like shankaracharya jodode India look at the comparison you're doing between Rahul Gandhi and shankarachary I'm just saying that very few people the bhakti movement started in the summer and then you accuse the BJP of being part of it what you are doing yeah but no this is not bhakti movement this is tapasya in fact Mr Rahul Gandhi said in the civil society that there are two emotions there are two pillars of Indian sort of you know Indian philosophy one is bhakti and the other one is tapasya I am doing tapasya he certainly", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}
{"id": "985c0c894e5f-54", "text": "tapasya I am doing tapasya he certainly doesn't want bhakti from all of us unlike many others in on the other side of the political Spectrum so you're going to come back to us after I will come back to you when the president I come back to you on the 1st of October evening in case the candidate is unanimous okay right I come back to you on the 19th of October if there is an election and there is uh announcement of the winner will be made so either in the first evening or the 19th evening I'll come and we can have this discussion thank you so much for being part of this discussion thank you very much thanks thank you for watching or listening into a i podcast with Smitha prakash do like and subscribe to whichever platform you watched or listened to it namaste [Music] thank you [Music]", "source": "2qzerKsp-cA"}