ministerial level and then the summit level um all meetings ultimately end up in the summit which is the uh you know final part of any presidency and it is at the summit that you have a declaration of the outcome which represents the work of your entire year of your presidency uh there are also engagement groups which are non-governmental groups which are very important you have women's 20 youth 20 Urban 20 I think 20 civil 20 these and business 20 for example these are important groups because they bring together um you know different organizations that work on these areas and their inputs also come in and are considered right at the summit level so every aspect of the G20 is important but as you can see it is very comprehensive it cuts across sectors and there's a fairly large amount of organizational responsibility that every presidency undertakes now in our case the Prime Minister decided that we would have our 200 meetings across the country he said it is not necessary to confine it to daily he said so


not necessary to confine it to daily he said so from that point of view I think we are looking at how we can organize a G20 meetings across our country and I think the idea behind this is to make sure that every state every individual every citizen of India is a stakeholder did Indonesia ended the other countries before that do something similar or is this something new that's being done so it's I think every country is tried to spread it out China had it in 14 locations Indonesia had it in 25 locations but 56 locations is a new record I think it is very difficult to match you have to have a country of the size and and diversity of India also the capacity to be able to hold meetings in so many different parts of our country so I think every part of our country would be covered and I think this is a matter of great pride and satisfaction but more than that every citizen becomes a stakeholder in the G20 presidency yes I've heard of this so could you


presidency yes I've heard of this so could you explain this thing to us so G20 presidency is not just at the central government the prime minister has said a number of times it belongs to every citizen of India and the effort is to broad base the G20 message what is our G20 presidency all about bring it to the Grassroots level so that will be done in Jan bhagadhari Jan andolan mode as prime minister says and I think we will it's a mission mode it is a mission mode we will we will use um we will work with with different organizations but we will also use festivals for example we have used already used the festival in Manipur there's a Shanghai Festival there is also a festival in nagaland called the hornbill Festival right there's a festival in Gujarat which is during sakranti which is basically the Kite Festival so you'll move the the delegations to those places or they will arrive there there so essentially it is it is branding of the


so essentially it is it is branding of the G20 you know uh getting the message visit 20 across in these festivals especially to younger people for example in the festival in Manipur there was a special G20 Pavilion and there was a G20 selfie booth and our Minister Dr jayashankar himself went there without minister and a lot of younger people came and they took selfies with the minister and essentially the minister spoke to them about what the G20 means so use the opportunity to speak to people recently on the 1st of December we organized an event with 75 universities all across India a virtual event in which 75 universities connected with the G20 Secretariat in Delhi we had the vice chancellors of number of universities participating but we also had two 300 students from daily come to that event it was addressed by external affairs minister it was addressed by principal secretary to the PM um chairman ugc essentially um you know conveying to them what the G20


um you know conveying to them what the G20 is all about what our presidency is all about and telling them to be ambassadors C20 ambassadors for their universities yeah but the message gets spread when we used to cover events uh whether it was a nam summit summit any of these Summits which used to happen it was basically delhi-centric and the only interaction or interface was journalists and uh delegates that's about it there was no public participation in such so foreign policy foreign related matters these have not had a you know a public participation as such this seems to be a new trend right so the Prime Minister said we want to take diplomacy to the people and essentially what you have is that you know as you mentioned International conferences were something remote that happened at certain rarified quotas and mainly in Delhi but for the first time you have an opportunity to take G20 meetings down to you know District levels down to um cities that have not been exposed internationally exposed


um cities that have not been exposed internationally exposed so far what does it do for us I mean it creates first of all capacity there are so many places where we are building Conference Centers German hangers uh you know widening roads making Public Access better improving cities pushing them up so one is that it gives us the opportunity to improve capacity wherever we are and in different parts of the country it's one thing to do it in Mumbai and Bangalore and Hyderabad but another thing to do it in in remote parts of our country as you said absolutely absolutely uh you know even down to lakshad if we just had any we had an event in Havelock Island in Andaman and nicobar so the point is that you first and for foremost provide International exposure to places that don't normally get it secondly you improve infrastructure and capacity in these these cities thirdly what you do is that you bring the world to these places with this huge coverage in Havelock and there's so much excitement


coverage in Havelock and there's so much excitement about Havelock being one of the venues of the G20 so what you try and do is that you know you you expose our tourism potential highlight and showcase our Rich cultural heritage and diversity and of course you also display our achievements development achievements and experiences to the International Community so whichever meeting you have you have a meeting say in tourism you have the top people in tourism from across the world from the most influential countries across the world who will come down uh so if you have it in a place like hampi for example a place like world heritage point or Srinagar you take them to places that uh that have tremendous tourism potential you actually highlight and showcase the tourism potential that you have and here are people who actually um work in this sector who are decision makers in this particular sector and it makes a huge difference to take them to places uh that actually have a tourism potential or worth rather than taking them


have a tourism potential or worth rather than taking them to you know bigger cities where it would be run of the mill just another conference now let's get to the naughty points or the not as in KN or TTY the naughty points of uh of the G20 because you know uh there's the Ukrainian War which has not ended there is the covet pandemic related supply chain issues which are there there's China there are several uh knots in this uh in this whole thing so uh how will this group mitigate the problems that the the geopolitical problems that you know that are staring at our face right now so this is a I would say specially difficult period when you look at it from a Global Perspective you've had uh the greatest shock to the International System in the form of the covid-19 pandemic you're barely recovering from the pandemic when you have the Ukraine conflict with its attendant impact on food and energy security you have high inflation low growth and of course


security you have high inflation low growth and of course indebtedness of many developing countries ah so it is in this context that you know you the world is looking for Solutions and looking to those countries or those groupings that can actually uh you know lead uh at a time of of this challenging crisis and uh in many senses I think um you know this is India's moment because at the end of the day uh if you look at the global uh you know Global growth um has slowed from six percent in 2021 to 3.2 to one percent in 2022 to 2.7 percent is projected slowdown in 2023 so you know growth globally is coming down many of the big economies have come down to very very low levels of growth almost on the points of recession uh India on the other hand is the fastest growing uh large economy of the world today um we have kept inflation under check our fundamental economic fundamentals are strong uh coming from the covet pandemic we have displayed strong economic


the covet pandemic we have displayed strong economic resilience which has been displayed through the Atman Bharat policy that the government has come in but at the same time you know despite the fact that we have focused on domestic uh domestic resilience we have not neglected to work on the international um let's say um you know to contribute to the International Community if you look at the covert crisis we had uh vaccine vaccine my three which which we shared vaccines with the rest of the world uh we we also provided medicines to the rest of the world where the pharmacy of the world um the prime minister at the Saudi Arabian uh Summit uh for covid-19 in 2020 for the first time spoke about uh uh you know uh Global you know human uh human Centric globalization by this he was saying that this is the first time and the G20 has met on an issue which is neither Financial nor economic in nature and that you know countries need to work for the global common


you know countries need to work for the global common good um and from that perspective I think um we have certain experiences and certain achievements that have worked for our people whether it's in digital delivery whether it's in public health uh whether it's in climate actions and renewable energy I think those are the areas that we can share with the rest of the world you know when it comes to the environment I think these are areas that we can provide a successful Paradigm which can be replicated across the developing world and the G20 I think if it wants to work for the benefit of mankind of humanity it could well take this opportunity to look at some of these examples we just saw a lot of uh Sherpas in India attending meetings already and most of them are speaking that India they are looking towards India for a solution as you just mentioned problem solving yeah the problem solver do you think we are actually in a position or is just you know you know long talk that whether we will


you know you know long talk that whether we will be a problem solution can we provide a solution to the world problems so as I said we have always there are two factors that distinguish uh foreign policy uh under Prime Minister Modi from what was there earlier and from that of other countries I think when you talk about a change a shift in the way a foreign policy has been conducted in the way India is regarded in the rest of the world to my mind there are two issue two factors that have that are absolutely responsible one is your domestic strengths I mean you know a country cannot become a Reasoner or a global uh let's say prominent player without its own domestic house being in order its economy doing well it's people looked after and so on so forth I think that's the most important thing and there again as I said I mean I think we have done very well for ourselves we have a very strong post covet resilient economy we are one of the fastest growing


economy we are one of the fastest growing economies in the world but we also have demonstrable experiences in terms of the tools and methods we have used this system reviews to deliver to the most vulnerable sections of our population so in the in the midst of the covet crisis we have supported some 800 million of our people um you know through uh food grain support through other forms of social safety net which I think has been quite remarkable uh even during the covet crisis we have brought in economic reforms and policies that have boosted our economic successes whether it is the pil uh the pli the you know production linked incentives or whether it is gati Shakti massive investments in the infrastructure sector I think we have worked uh consistently even during the most difficult periods to bring about a change in our own uh sort of Economics Ambassador you know there's always been talk that there's been a paradigm shift in our foreign policy you are you mentioned it just now uh you


policy you are you mentioned it just now uh you uh were ambassador of India in in the U.S when Mr Modi came into office you did howdy Modi uh and you know there were there were several things that you uh and you were a foreign secretary during this very crucial period when Indian foreign policy morphed in some ways one would say you know from that nehruvian uh era we've moved to a different kind and you were at the cusp you've seen it up close in front how would you say because when you began Service uh you know how would you say that what it was then and what it is now how would you see them well I mean I began service from 40 years ago but even take 10 or 15 years ago um you know India was seen very differently as it has seen today when I was in the United States I had no problems of access to any level you know Senators Governors Business Leaders um um even the White House you would get access wherever you need it and


House you would get access wherever you need it and whenever you need it and that's because people had a genuine interest in India and the success of India and prime minister modi's own efforts to boost the relationship with the United States was very well known so whether it was Democrats Republicans it was you know buy parties and support for a strong relationship with India and I think uh you know it was a matter of great pride and satisfaction to me as ambassador of India to the world's uh you know uh richest nation and most in some senses the most powerful nation that we were regarded so well across the board uh we had a very successful Indian diaspora in the United States uh the Prime Minister I think one of the aspects that is important is that he not only had good relations with every president uh fight from President Obama to president Trump and now President Biden successfully has had maintained very strong relations across the board with the U.S he's also reached out to the Indian Community uh


he's also reached out to the Indian Community uh across the world uh in general but since we're talking about the US the US in particular in a way that no prime minister has ever done I mean howdy Modi is a one-off event and I think you it'll be rare to see something like that replicated ever again you know 50 000 U.S Nationals of Indian origin uh gathered in a part of the United States with the U.S president and the Indian Prime Minister addressing them walking hand in hand take a round across that Stadium an incredible moment of friendship namity but also a demonstration of the closeness of ties and the strength of the Indian diaspora Trump was an unknown factor for the Indian foreign policy establishment in Indian diplomats didn't know anything about him his team that came in was it a challenge initially to to open uh talks with with an unknown person completely so Trump didn't belong to the what you called the Washington Beltway politics he was an outsider he


Washington Beltway politics he was an outsider he didn't believe in doing um things the way it was normally done and so his decision-making methods were different from normal presidency so we had to find out what made him tick what are the factors that what are the inputs that went into his his decision making how could you factor that in and I think that took a bit of time and effort But ultimately uh I think we we did find that there was a way to reach out uh of course there is no better way to reach out than at the top levels but you need to reach out also at different levels of the administration and I think that is something that we managed to find a way to do it took some effort and that is a different story by itself but but I think uh ultimately tell us about that story what were the challenges at that time well I mean look he didn't believe in working through the through his uh his uh let's say White House team in didn't believe in working


say White House team in didn't believe in working through his cabinet his Council of ministers I mean they gave him there was this informal channels you had to work through channels which were which he relied on okay and for him it was only family you know it was the family that actually uh mattered and it was a family he listened to we had the Secretary of uh Commerce as secretary defense tell him something he may or may not have listened I mean half the time he thought he knew it better than the others um but but of course uh you know if you were to access a family member and say look this is very important for the relationship please uh you know mention this is the president before we have this important meeting for example that I think I thought really made the difference I think we saw that also when Ivanka Trump came out to India I mean the red carpet that was laid out for her and everybody was like um okay it's never happened before that a family member got


it's never happened before that a family member got so much importance but Ivanka was an integral part of his uh is his administration's team Ivanka and Jared Krishna her husband were very major players which were inside the you know White House team that worked on policy initiatives so he's a diplomat you have to you have to be dynamic in how you uh Implement these uh relationships isn't it I mean how you go about it you have to get the work done right and I think it increasingly you uh you know people think that diplomacy is the normal you know receptions diplomatic parties you get to meet people but I think increasingly you have to find a way to work which is outside the box did the Indian diaspora help at this time diaspora is a great help I think the diaspora um is committed to strengthening the relationship they don't hesitate to work with you at any level to support the cause which is their cause as well and I think you know whether it


cause as well and I think you know whether it is the diaspora which is uh in New York or within the in the west coast in Silicon Valley or in in in the Texas area I'm saying the diaspora across the United States you could get uh you know reach out to anybody and any grouping and get the sort of support that you need but it's for you uh to uh you know tap that support and to make the best of it and I think we really worked closely with the diaspora in achieving our common objectives in the US sir uh you were talking about the personal uh equation between prime minister and you know various U.S presidents so as a diplomat there is a career Diplomat do you think that this personal chemistry this personal equations with the leaders we see this on the visuals when he's meeting G20 leader do you think prime minister's personal attention towards other leaders matters and it helps and boosts the relationships or is just photo op my personal


boosts the relationships or is just photo op my personal view is that that is the deciding factor I see um you know um the United States of course is an executive presidency so decisions are taken uh important decisions are taken at the president's level almost always so that Chemistry Between Your prime minister and the US president is critical in achieving the outcomes that you want to seek in the India us election but whether it is with President macro or prime minister Boris Johnson when he was PM or whether it is uh you know Prime Ministers across the board leadership across the board I think it matters in any country if you if you think of Nepal or you think of Bangladesh or you think of our neighbors or you think beyond our neighbors think of UAE uh you know with with President uh you know president and the uh Crown Prince uh of Saudi Arabia I mean the in you know one-to-one relationship and the equation that the Prime Minister enjoys with all of these leaders actually makes


Minister enjoys with all of these leaders actually makes that difference okay and uh you know uh the foreign policy establishment uh you know to take advantage of that and yeah the trickle-down effect I'm sure comes up so another thing is that you know when we used to cover earlier asean Summits EU or you know any of these uh Summits when those uh family photographs are taken with all the world leaders and if if our prime minister would be you know a shrinking violet or somewhere in the corner it just didn't feel good you know there was this always said that we wanted as Indians you want your prime minister to be somewhere in the center somewhere near uh you know near Putin or near Obama or near whatever not in the corner so these things even for people who are non-practitioners of foreign policy and you know the Layman even that matters so family picture is one part of it but if you see that Prime Minister Modi is probably one of the most sought after leaders in the


probably one of the most sought after leaders in the world for any Global decision making that you have whether it's in climate change whether it is in issues that are political in nature or economic in nature he's always called in um he's been called into all of the recent G7 Summits as I said we are part of the world we're part of the brics we're part of the SEO uh we are part of the I2 U2 which has just been created we have Regional we engage as a country regionally with the European Union with with centralization states with CARICOM with digital cooperation council with the Pacific island states with asean African Union so we've got these mechanisms that enable us to engage with organizations or groups of countries across the across the world uh so uh in in recent years if you've seen um you know with you know on practically every Summit whether it's a democracy Summit or a green partnership Summit every possible initiative that the UN has taken or any individual country has taken Prime


UN has taken or any individual country has taken Prime Minister Modi has been a part of that he's been a very much sought after part of that so let's get to the people who brings value we have a problem engaging with let's get to China and Pakistan you know you just recently said that no diplomacy with China uh or no nothing forward with China until the legitimate issues are addressed even as foreign secretary you had a big challenge uh when you were foreign secretary this whole issue and doklam is still uh is an issue which remains unsettled Galvan and document all this the India China issue is still unsettled what does issue legitimate issues addressed what does that mean just explain to us what is addressing an issue mean well um I think we're all aware that in early 2020 when countries were quite preoccupied we were preoccupied with the covert crisis we saw an attempt to um you know mobilize troops on the line of actual control the line of control we saw um attempts


control the line of control we saw um attempts at multiple multiple attempts at transgressions across the Lac um so our point of course since then we've had a number of discussions at the level of army commanders and at the Diplomatic levels external affairs minister Dr jayashankar himself has met his counterpart on a number of occasions you also were part of yes I mean of course as foreign secretary um you know this was an issue that we one of the very major issues that we was it one of the biggest challenges in your career without a doubt I think the uh there were times that you know the um when the issue was was very much live that um you know it could have gone anyway so we had to make sure that we were constantly working together on a whole of government approach we were working um not in the united D but we were always there the eye was always on the ball we had to make sure that we got out of this situation uh in in


that we got out of this situation uh in in a way that that actually uh kept both our security and our strategic considerations intact and in place and at the same time uh that we would not in any way um you know yield any uh in any manner to this attempts at transgressions how hard was it to to be you know in those talks like what is what is the China Chinese delegation like in these talks no so these talks took place on the border uh on the actual Lac and it was between Army commanders I'm talking about the physical talks um and we always had one of our um you know it was it was a composite delegation that that actually attended talks um and in in I would say in every case you know you have to carefully think through how you needed to address those issues How Does It Go sir like uh who leads these talks is it the is it the National Security um uh no so the talks we've had so far has been at the level


we've had so far has been at the level of army commanders which is the core Commander uh leading the ladakh sector okay so uh it is the Army to Army talks but we always had one of our senior diplomats also as part of that and and and I'm sure the Chinese side also had their own people so essentially uh the talks uh were very limited to addressing the issues that were on the Lac on the ladakh and the Western sector and and I think some progress is made but my point that I was making and which has been made by the ministry external Affairs on a number of occasions has been that you know you cannot expect a normal diplomatic relationship when uh issues that were let's say that came up in 2020 territorial issues territorial issues are uh you know unless they are fully addressed so how do they want it do they want normal diplomatic relations what is their side one Chinese side no well you've heard them on a number of occasions asking for normalization diplomatic


a number of occasions asking for normalization diplomatic relations and of course the talks have been an effort to you know Bridge the gaps and and come to satisfactory conclusions that can enable us uh to to complete this process but we are not yet there that's what I'm saying their side always says that look uh maybe diplomatically we are not there where we should be but uh trade wise we are doing what uh uh 14.6 percent uh trade has increased uh in the first nine months of the year they are saying 103.6 billion dollars so what they are saying is that we're doing phenomenally well the relationship is good so you know what is it that little D incentivize any kind of territorial aggression from China when we continue to do trade with them no trade see uh we have to remember that trade is uh an essential part to the give and take the exchanges that you have with any country where China is a very large neighbor so and you know your industry also requires raw materials


so and you know your industry also requires raw materials that do come from China uh whether it is API for Pharma Pharmaceuticals or you know different types of equipment and raw material that you do need and you do also export a number of your items to that country um that aspect of it uh you know is is uh I would say um almost uh you know represents continuity in in any situations whether it is uh Japan's relations with China or the relations that even Taiwan has with China trade and Investments has been a part of that thing um in our case of course uh you know what I mean by normal diplomatic ties is uh you know in terms of exchange of visits in terms of higher level uh I would say exchanges Etc um but again that depends on how much progress is made and and that is a constant process so nothing is nothing is staying at one place the things always move on and things always so there is you know this kind of diplomatic entanglement where there is territorial issues


of diplomatic entanglement where there is territorial issues so what you're saying is that trade is in its place that happens with all countries that doesn't get weaponized but food and energy is getting weaponized we are looking at that with Russia in the Ukrainian War so why is that weaponized and not a trait then well food and food fuel fertilizers as we say are all parts of trade but it is you can you could you know countries can weaponize those aspects of trade that they feel uh gives them an advantage um and uh you know our Point always has been that weaponization of essential um you know parts of Supply chains is is not conducive to overall international trade and so we've been working with many of our partners to ensure a sustainable uh resilient supply chain system by which uh you know we are not affected uh or we are less affected when it comes to crises the type that you see whether it is a Health crisis or whether it is a political crisis uh you have to


whether it is a political crisis uh you have to make sure that your supply chains are not affected you had a question on this on the oil supply and Russia and G20 right so if we come back to G20 circle around and come back we have seen some uh position taken by India on the fuel from Russia buying fuel from Russia uh so at the same time West has criticized us and they have also imposed a price cap now on Russia so how do you look at this uh you know chemistry between India and Russia do you think we are going to continue buying oil and don't you think that this is also going to cost in the shadow and also this is not going to spoil the equations with other countries especially the US and others I think um you know we have it you know there are two types of sanctions one is sanctions uh through the United Nations system the other is unilateral sanctions imposed by countries uh we have as far as the Russia is concerned we have neither violated


the Russia is concerned we have neither violated neither there are no U.N sanctions but we are not violated any bilateral sanctions in other words uh there is no um bar on import of uh oil from Russia um the quantum is the problem no countries may say that you are importing but the same country is import a lot more than we do yeah so the point there really is that uh you know what are we violating I mean you know it is a free world out there you can import what you want to if there are restrictions of any kind that is placed and those restrictions impact on your uh let's say uh you know ability to continue to trade freely Etc obviously you will take that into account but if they don't violate those restrictions so um then then of course uh you know why would you um you know have to uh and what we are saying is that imports from Russia is also important for our own uh Imports of Russian oil oil we're an energy dependent country we import um


oil oil we're an energy dependent country we import um 75 to 80 percent of our energy needs we need to ensure that we provide for our people uh you know the best possible options and any impact which is by way of inflation higher costs of fuel it would impact across the board would have uh deleterious impact on the economy and the well-being of our people so we need to safeguard the interests of 1.4 billion people um so certainly when it comes to um you know Imports uh a there is no violation of any kind and B we're doing it because we believe that this is the best way to safeguard our national interests so there's also this view that Russia doesn't want a diplomatic isolation and it's looking at this G20 Summits which are being held in India the fact that India is the host and India is a traditionally been a partner a friend uh of Russia that Russia is hoping that India can smoothen its the problems that it has with the rest of the world


problems that it has with the rest of the world is that a connection so I I can't comment on that because I have not been privy to any such conversation with Russia and of course I must clarify that everything I've been saying whether it's on China or Russia is in my own private capacity yes but the fact is that uh as far as the G20 is concerned I think uh you know it is an international grouping as presidency you want to have the maximum amount of uh you know traction for your broad priorities our point of view is that our priorities are those that are impact on the rest of the world as I said it's its issue of growth inflation uh indebtedness of States uh you know ensuring that the sustainable development goals continue um that there is uh some effort to reform multilateral institutions to improve their functioning especially the um you know financial institutions and uh you know our priority also is women-led development so many of these areas are those that we will work on with the


areas are those that we will work on with the rest of the international rest of our partners in the G20 there's also this thing about you know it becoming more inclusive a platform and not just you know top heavy and that it though it's not a security platform but there are these issues which need to be dealt with and it's not just a talk shop we should that some solutions should come from these Summits so it look at it this way it brings together some of the most uh the leaders of some of the most powerful countries the countries that today really impact on decision making on the well-being of the rest of the world so the fact that you are convening you know 20 30 40 heads of state and government heads of international organizations the most prominent form I think is an opportunity for you to look at whatever you can do and what I mean what exactly is it that we can do is something that you know will be decided as you go along and this is at the highest level so


go along and this is at the highest level so that aspect will have to be seen but is it does give you an opportunity to uh to not only place your narrative in the global agenda but to lead that initiative to say that look in times of Crisis and difficulty uh there is uh there are solutions to challenges that that we can offer and that's what it is so do you think during the peak of this crisis Ukraine Russia both the leadership spoke to Prime Minister Modi do you think that India will be playing a peacemaker and in this context do you think Russian participation is confirmation in G20 is it confirmed because they have indicated that they are going to come for G20 see we have to understand what India's position has been on this issue we have said that we stand for peace we stand for diplomacy and dialogue prime minister has emphasized that this is not an era of War so I think and that aspect that has been included in the Bali Declaration of the


that has been included in the Bali Declaration of the G20 so uh the G20 is already listening to our approach to this entire issue that you know that this is something that is uh is uh in the interest of the global community ah that we look at the G20 from a perspective of a body that is able to provide solutions to Global challenges of the day which are significant I mean we are in a situation where 70 uh developing countries have reached a level of indebtedness growth is is slowing down to one-digit figures uh inflation is rampant currencies are falling import bills of countries for fuel and food is going up significantly so do we not need to look at these challenges and when you gather the leaders of some of some of the most influential countries in the world you need to really think and look and enjoy Active Solutions to these solutions to Global challenges yeah I mean those challenges across the board but largely those challenges are economic in nature and and of course uh


challenges are economic in nature and and of course uh you know um from that point of view I think our presidency will come up with uh with options and with with proposals and initiatives uh as prime minister said it would be an ambitious it would be a decisive it'll be an action oriented but an inclusive Summit personals or some challenge which you said it was this is a bigger challenge in my life nightmarish kind of situation if you want to Define any of such moments you know and that was that one and a half years I saw you not smiling at all well that also shows seriousness serious and you know every time I would look at you say ABI solution he's not he's still looking tense the well you know the idea is to find solutions to problems but certainly the crisis on the Lac was one of the one of the big challenge that we face but we had Afghanistan which was a huge challenge yes Ukraine and you know we had operation ganga that that enabled


and you know we had operation ganga that that enabled us to bring back 23 000 of our students our young people from Ukraine yeah it's going to be the anniversary of that one year anniversary that was a very critical piece so at this point last year uh you know we had daily meetings the Prime Minister himself you know presided over those meetings you briefed him and it has a hold of government approach so every bit responsible was there I think that is the only way we managed to tackle a problem of that crisis um so you had I mean you you had every uh you know other day with some crisis and some challenge raw materials resources foreign foreign to your right that was a quite a big crisis at that time or um we did not leave a single stone unturned to achieve those objectives of that the embassies were functioning uh with full capacity around the clock and I can tell you uh a of course I was fortunate I never got covered you were in Washington DC at that time no


covered you were in Washington DC at that time no I was in Delhi yeah you were in Delhi that's right yeah I never got put but more importantly I worked through each and every day there was not a single day in the worst lockdown that I did not work and everywhere around me people had got covered quite seriously yeah almost like emptied out at one point of time whichever officers were able to work we worked with them we we uh we did you know work through video conferencing it was a very difficult period very stressful period of time because you know the pressures were high at one time I do recall the Prime Minister himself said he said do whatever you can to make sure that we get the materials that we need for our country you know to deal with this uh a crisis I mean it had become I would say so difficult that we needed to ensure that we sort of accelerated our production whether it is medicines like remedy severe or whether it is uh we got from


severe or whether it is uh we got from the U.S cooperation when it was like not expected or people thought that there's no way they're trying to I think they said something overnight no the U.S government reacted very positively they understood that it was not only important but it is you know important for the relationship important for very large uh you know section of humanity to have the ability to vaccinate but also the fact that we were using the vaccines for the rest of the world also mattered I mean after all Indian made vaccines were in were sent to 150 countries across the world our coven platform through which we successfully uh administered two billion vaccines was open source and we made it available to countries across the world in 142 countries participate participated in a global coven uh conference that we are right now in hindsight everybody is talking about how great it was but at that stage when we were in the second wave there was a lot of criticism domestically also that you


was a lot of criticism domestically also that you haven't managed to vaccinate our domestic population and you've started sending it out to other countries so how does the foreign policy establishment how does how does Mea deal with uh with that kind of criticism criticism so of course you know it is a valid point that you must make your vaccines available first to your own people that is certainly a priority and I think we were fully cognizant of that it was only after uh checking with all concerned Niti Health Ministry uh you know whichever organization was responsible dghs Etc that we actually allowed the export of some items uh vaccines to other countries especially our neighbors our partners developing countries Etc um you have to keep in mind that in the beginning the system was not geared up to administering that level of vaccines you know it takes a bit of time to build up the cold chain uh you know the uh the institutions that would vaccinate to get the data for people uh you


vaccinate to get the data for people uh you know who would be vaccinated Etc so that took a few months and that is when vaccine my three actually took off from January to about April and and that's the time that we exported a certain number of vaccines and then of course we stopped from about uh you know April May onwards till uh September October still we could vaccinate a good building end of our own people yeah and that was also another challenging aspect I think of your tenure that you faced uh another thing which I must uh bring out is that you know this criticism uh that is done of our foreign policy that it's increasingly linked with uh with politics of the country with domestic politics uh something that there was some kind of a firewall uh before 2014 but post 2014 uh it's become uh more inter interlinked with domestic politics how do you see that well I mean foreign policy has never been fully insulated from from domestic politics because you know when you


from from domestic politics because you know when you deal with your neighbors it always impacts on on our states uh you know around for example if you deal with Nepal Bihar and up are always impacted you deal with Bangladesh it is Whispering tripura you deal with Sri Lanka it is Tamil Nadu Kerala so there is an impact which which is there and you know at the end of the day um when you talk about uh you know cooperative federalism uh you do involved States and I think the Endeavor of uh government of Prime Minister Modi has been uh you know to the largest extent possible to involve States in any Endeavor that involves foreign policy the second thing we have tried to do in the ministry external Affairs is to demystify a foreign policy okay take it and I think Ani has been an important part of that effort I mean you know uh every decision that has been made or every step that we take in foreign policy is is articulated to uh to the


in foreign policy is is articulated to uh to the Grassroots level to say that this is what it is I mean G20 also yeah uh the fact that we have through Jan bhagadhari more taking it to the Grassroots level is an indication as the Prime Minister says is that we want to take diplomacy to the nation that means you you want to make sure that everybody understands what is the rationale what is it all about what is it in for us and our country so that is very critical and that I think in in you know in my 10 years foreign secretary there has been a very important part of what I've tried to do with our external publicity division with all of our partners and stakeholders how do we try and take this across that means if you have a press release is not just in English or Hindi it is in all regional languages it is disseminated to Regional media people try and get it uh you know whatever and if you say you do something with regard to


and if you say you do something with regard to Myanmar then make sure that information is there in Manipur or mizoram so that people who have a stake in that also understand what it's all about yeah so we tried to take it this whole demystification bit and I used to always joke with the uh Ministry of external especially the XP division external publicity division in case people don't know what that means is that that is our interface for journalists that's where we get our information from the external publicity division so you know the the jsxp which is the joint secretary uh in external Affairs Ministry or who deals with publicity he's our Point person from whom we get information so you know it's it's always it's a hard hard task to get some information especially when it comes to India China matters and India Pakistan matters as you know so so we have to you know like you say uh India and Pakistan foreign ministers met and bilateral issues were discussed and uh it was a free and


issues were discussed and uh it was a free and Frank discussion and so ham looks if if it is that uh matters of mutual interest were discussed that means it was a general Samosa so I used to always say that at some point of time the ministry of external Affairs briefings should be open to the general public because they will take the BS level out of this out of this uh you know niceties which form your uh your press releases and your explanations I hope G20 may you do this you speak to the people and answer it see the I think you've already done that you have taken the vs out of uh foreign policy and you asked Naveen uh you know whatever was uh was uh seemed to be uh you know uh to lack uh some detail in the briefing he would immediately get to me and say what's it all about and we'll try and uh we'll try and put it very open for questions you know okay but but you're right I mean you know there's this


but you're right I mean you know there's this fogging of issues foreign policy to some extent constant because it's not just you know we're dealing with other partners interlocutors and you know we have to make sure that uh that uh if the wrong message doesn't go through in some ways right but at the same time I think it is absolutely essential that you know we are able to put foreign policy uh in terms that everybody can comprehend understand and relate to I think that's very important what is the biggest challenge in this uh in all these meetings which are being held I mean Logistics of course is going to be difficult is it going to be airports is it going to be bundabast it's going to or is it going to be egos of uh of the heads of government and heads of state who are coming well I mean you know um as Chief coordinator my job is to coordinate and I find that coordination is is quite a challenge because you are dealing with multiple stakeholders you


challenge because you are dealing with multiple stakeholders you know from states to districts to uh different uh entities in our own government uh you know range of organizations uh and I think that it's very important to constantly look at how you can coordinate how you can resolve issues quickly simply and and with such certain level of expediency uh in a practical way so um as you do 200 meetings you know there are a lot of lessons learned and and best practices you apply them you know the first SharePoint meeting of therefore has been a great success in the way that we are showcased India and provided Indian experiences I mean after all our effort has been to host an impeccable and uniquely Indian G20 presidency So to that extent I think in in you know therefore we have managed to to provide that uh flavor uh to the share parts of coming from all of these countries it was extremely ostentatious yeah very very uh yeah yeah but the idea is that for example you go to whichever


the idea is that for example you go to whichever place you go to and as I mentioned right in the beginning prime minister's directives that you know every every state has its own uniqueness its own characteristics its own Beauty Etc so we are trying to bring that out okay so uh you for example uh if you go to um Kerala you will find that there are you know forms of cultural practices there which which would be in you know or or Cuisine from Kerala next year is the international year of militant India had a major role in getting that trip because we have been using bridge for uh you know as part of our traditional cuisine for Millennia whereas today millets is you know has become the new uh I would say uh the ideal food it provides nourishment it is got roughages it's it's a rich in protein and and I think this is something that is making a comeback yeah Mr David will be very happy that ragi is he's been talking about it since he was


is he's been talking about it since he was prime minister that about millets and now ultimately after 20 25 years I think it's it's come to the fore so I was asking about the egos also you know I've seen in international Summits this is what happens our Prime Ministers entering block the airport this the main conference room should be for our president and then who meets who the sidebars which happen these are all also the the sideshow which people don't get to know about it tell us something about that how difficult is it some of that will come in later as we get to the ministerial and to the top level and I think it's important for us as the host when it comes to foreign governments to make sure that sensitivities are taken taken into account I mean you know every country has uh every country will make demands you know we want this hotel someone will say we want that access we want to be the first here we want to be speaking here now uh you


here we want to be speaking here now uh you obviously can't accommodate everyone all the time but what you need to do is to try and you know make as many delegations as comfortable as possible take their sensitivities into account and I think we will constantly work and what about food are these food things very important like a vegetarian so in any International event that is important but what we are saying you you when you come to India you enjoy our Cuisine so if you go to Gujarat you will get a Gujarati thali you'll be showcasing food a lot from yes that is one of our endeavors like culture like places of you know interest excursions you know whether you go to the kumbalgar Fort or you go to ajanta and ellora we take them to iconic places but we also give them Cuisine which is uniquely Indian I mean of that region so when they had makiki Roti in udaipur many delegates loved it I hope they never find chicken tikka masala


I hope they never find chicken tikka masala anywhere in India just so that they know that it's a British thing and it's not indians meetings but meetings meetings so now I want to get a little bit about you as a person uh tell me why did you choose to join the a Foreign Service the reason I'm asking is there are many youngsters who listen into this podcast who watch it on YouTube uh when they take the civil services exam what is it that like what motivated you to pick Foreign Service well uh you know at that time of course motivations were what your you know your elders tell you what your peer groups tell you my father always had an interest in Foreign Service he encouraged me to join the foreign I'm from Darjeeling in West Bengal but he possibly always had an interest himself in the Foreign Service so inculcated in me in me that interest and so it was there with me quite early but what I can say is that there is no uh better satisfaction than


say is that there is no uh better satisfaction than to represent your country and by represent I don't mean represent at senior levels you represent even if you go for a very small meeting which has representative of other countries you still represent your country so um that opportunity is a unique one and as I said some time back I said you know uh 10 15 years ago to what it is now and what people will see as you go into Amrit Khal and we we come closer to our 100th anniversary I think there'll be a paradigm a shift in the way uh Indian India is regarded and representatives of India regarded so you will really see an ability uh to serve at the high table to serve with the most intentional groups and most important of all to make an impact globally in which your voice is heard and what you have to say it matters your aunt was also foreign secretary you also became the foreign secretary I'm sure when you sit across the table you talk about what it is


sit across the table you talk about what it is like to represent India what was it like for her and uh when she was foreign secretary and for you was there any change in India in representing India yeah I think uh it was a different uh time because she was foreign secretary at the turn of the century that means around 2001 in that period of time and we were already coming we've already sort of becoming uh you know a country that people looked at but uh but I think uh what it was and then and what it is today um is is absolutely no comparison and uh if you remember um you know um Even in our relationship with the US you know you were equated at a certain level yeah and today those equations are completely different and and our ability to to engage countries is completely different so for anybody who's uh you know an aspirant for the upsc exam thinking of what he should do I think the Foreign Service is a great career is absolutely one of the best most


a great career is absolutely one of the best most satisfying careers that anyone can have and I think not only because of course uh you know you experience different parts of the world but you you also take to them your own country but most important for all as I said our own country is changing so quickly and is becoming uh such uh you know an important player in global in the global decision making process that I think the opportunities for our younger generations and women I'm seeing more and more participation more and more women joining your service so 40 of every Foreign Service batch consists of women now uh they are smart they're articulate they made us all very proud and when we talk about women-led development these are the people are going to lead development in our country a major problem I think also with the Foreign Service is that if the couple uh gets you know like if the the man and the woman both are in the Foreign Service you don't get posted in the same place these are the pitfalls of


posted in the same place these are the pitfalls of your service that you know you don't get posted in the same city so a large portion of the married life is you're separate this is one aspect the second is that the children every three years you get posted out then it you know the children have this problem of getting admission into schools that that is also one of the issues so what we're trying to do is to post couples together for as long as we can until they become you know head of poster head of mission in such a case obviously you can't have two ambassadors in the same country so they have to be separate but sometimes they're in neighboring countries uh um the ministry I think has a you know takes a fairly uh positive view of people who are in such situations and tries to accommodate them to the extent that they can uh as far as children is concerned yes they do need to move and it's a very itinerant way of life um in our own case


itinerant way of life um in our own case we've tried to ensure that our you know son has been in in India in the seminal periods of is education so in the four or five years when it mattered most uh you know right from class eight to class 12 was class 11 we try to make sure that he was he was here in India yeah because that then he can identify he's got friends from school here he's got he knows the place he's uh so it's important to also plan and you can plan I mean nothing prevents you from staying in India for as long as you want right and I'm seeing uh noticing that when Foreign Service officers this is almost like seven eight years I think that you know they call in the ambassadors they call in the high Commissioners back to India once a year and then you need to travel in the country and see it's not just that one Bharat darshan but you need to travel more and more in the country to know your country better now yeah


in the country to know your country better now yeah so it's very important to have your uh you know your or basic fundamentals correct in other words you have to know your country very well to represent your country not superficially not through reading but actually to through traveling to parts of a country so we have a heads of missions conference every year we just had one uh the investors really go back to their home States visit their home States go down to the Grassroots level developmental level meet the chief minister Chief secretary everybody get a very good grasp of what it is all about and and they also have Bharat darshan every person who becomes is appointed Ambassador gets an opportunity to do his Bharat darshan he goes to those states that he wants to I remember when I was posted to Thailand as a master I did the bharadarshan in the Northeast you know starting with the Sam ending in ending in andaments because these are the places that that were linked to Thailand I mean if you


that that were linked to Thailand I mean if you stood in in Port Blair you can see 48 kilometers away is is Phuket in in Thailand and that's where they have uh you know an interest because of materials and goods coming in ETC at so essentially um you choose states that you want to and you go to places that uh you know that have some relevance to what you're doing but also to enable you to understand uh you know very clearly what are the current you know our country is also changing very quickly development is very fast every every other day there is some new initiative there's no new policy you need to see it on the ground you need to actually visit it so even when I was foreign secretary I tried to travel within the country as well okay I went to several places I went to Amritsar you're very extremely popular in West Bengal also that's my home state so I I you know I think you shared a good relation with this chief minister here also well I


good relation with this chief minister here also well I mean you know that's another question I wanted to ask about you know yeah interacting with with states with different uh Chief Ministers of States how does how do Foreign Service officers meet up with uh with different states if suppose this state government is an opposition state government is there the same level of interaction as say the ruling party see I mean it's it's uh as far as you're concerned uh you represent India and the chief minister of any state is is the chief minister of you know a state of your country so when they relate to you and they come abroad um you uh you make sure that you know they have the best opportunities to meet the sort of people they want to meet whether it's investors whether it's people who have an economic interests the diaspora and so on so forth so I think Foreign Service officers have a lot of possibilities because Chief ministers today under a cooperative federalism program and you can also call it competitive


federalism program and you can also call it competitive federalism because you need to compete for Investments for trade Etc so Chief ministers are increasingly going out and and looking at opportunities that they can bring back to their states and you can play a role and of course we have uh heads of our brand secretariats our rpos who are posted in these places they also interact you mentioned West Bengal I think as when I was in Bangladesh obviously you need to work closely with the chief Ministers of states around you West Bengal of course was was most prominent but I met all the chiefness Sam mizoram uh you know all Chief ministers that had a uh and you know border with Bangladesh and had something to do so everywhere wherever you're posted there is a certain uh you know link with uh States and with the CMS there even as part of the G20 initiatives act East policy that's a major thing that uh for so yes neighborhood first activist these and the indo-pacific these


neighborhood first activist these and the indo-pacific these are major planks of our policy uh the other day I did go out to guwahati and I I spoke about you know the linkage between our Actis policy in the Northeast so it is not in isolation when you talk about activities and what are the benefits that that our country can get what are the benefits that parts of our country can get and for the Northeast which has this issue of being somewhat you know cut off from the mainland you know what are the benefits of using you know being a link between the mainland and these countries Etc so this this is important to people so yeah relating to States I think is very critical in foreign policy and the more you can do it today the better off better your purpose is served so I have one related question when it comes to foreign policy or security matters or national security we have seen in mature democracies and Western democracies there is a bipartisan approach you know like they are


is a bipartisan approach you know like they are all on same page when it comes to these issues but here we have seen some differences you know like even your G20 is in a way politicized they said that we are making a big deal out of it it's just uh opposition has said this that it's just a rotation of for presidency why are we making it such a big event so how do you look at it do you think these are still a long way to travel when it comes to bipartisan you know approach or all all will be on same page on the foreign policy and the defense matters well it's I think when it comes to domestic issues you know you will obviously have differences and in any democracy you should have when it comes to foreign policy they should be as much of convergence as you can because then you're speaking with one voice you're United you are able to protect your views you have to support the government of the day and support those initiatives that are there


the day and support those initiatives that are there and understand where they're coming from and as part of the ministry external Affairs we have had many Outreach you know we've got the Parliamentary committee on external Affairs we have the consulative committee which the external affairs minister heads those are constantly meeting and those are constant I mean I think that is the link between the ministry I mean other than the you know the the statements that are made in Parliament the parliament questions Etc but these committees also provide a very useful interface so whether it is the you know our approach to the neighborhood activist policy neighborhood first policy uh you know the Ukraine conflict uh evacuation of our citizens Ukraine all of this is discussed in great length presentations are made but at the end of the day uh if there are differences uh those can you know be exploited uh by those that who have don't have our best interests in mind and also sir Prime Minister Modi as you said that has been


Prime Minister Modi as you said that has been working very closely whether it is Operation you know one day Bharat or vaccine how close is this G20 project to his heart and how much is he coordinating with you on this no I think if there's any um indication of the importance that the Prime Minister attaches to the G20 issue you can see that he has taken at least four or five meetings exclusively on the G20 issue in the recent weeks right from the launch of the logo website and theme of the G20 to the you know briefing to the Council of ministers and all secretaries to government of India uh to a meeting the all party meeting that is convened on the G20 to a meeting of the chief ministers and governors of States on G20 these all exclusively G20 meetings he has made it a point to emphasize to the country through all of the different interactions not only the importance of India's G20 presidency but what is our message and again what


presidency but what is our message and again what is it what is it in for the uh you know for our for every citizen of India so this thing has been an important aspect of that how to convey the message across and how to make everybody stakeholders and partners in that exercise it is not a remote exercise out of daily not it is not that of the central government it's not just a whole of government approach it's the whole of nation approach in dealing with the G20 so it is a unique opportunity think of it we have never hosted an international event of this magnitude and significance today we are on the global high table we are seen as a rare uh I would say you know Ray of Hope in in what is otherwise a scene of despondency in Gloom in the international Arena we have the opportunities to impact significantly on the global narrative but at the same time we can use G20 to Showcase and highlight our own countries achievements developments tourism potential cultural heritage prime


countries achievements developments tourism potential cultural heritage prime minister told CMZ said you know over the last next one year we'll have about a lack a foreign you know participants and delegates coming into India many of them will come into your States all over India so let's make the best of this opportunity they will showcase India for us yeah wherever they go they'll be the spotlight uh there'll be media Spotlight there'll be Spotlight from their countries they will go and talk about it there will be a resonance how can we make the best of it how can we involve our youth younger people our University students are you know people who've been trained in international relations in foreign languages who have an interest in this how can they be part of the process I mean we generate and mobilize their human training of taxi drivers It's Beginning from that uh absolutely I mean I found that quite unique that it's going down to the Grassroots yeah that you know they are the first uh interface right as soon as


they are the first uh interface right as soon as you get out of the airport it's the taxi driver so he or she is the person who gives the first impression right this reminds me of China Allah hosting Olympics they trained all their taxi drivers in Beijing to speak English although it has not Ministry of Tourism is doing this training in soft skills with tour guides taxi drivers all who come into contact with our with delegates the police Bureau of police research and development is doing a training of a police person in all the states which will be involved with G20 the MAA has trained a thousand uh you know liaison officers in in the line Ministries we'll do that with the states also so a training of people and mobilizing people including volunteers is an important part of that exercise and and that I think is is a great way of mentioned a lot about the neighborhood policy sir but uh very Frankly Speaking we're going to come to Pakistan actually we have still no normal


to come to Pakistan actually we have still no normal relationships with Pakistan especially and also China through that matter for obvious reasons but do you think that there is any Ray of Hope of normalization of relation between India and Pakistan in near future and how do you look at the bilateral relationship overall so I think let me someone who's worked in the neighborhood for the you know for a good part of my career I think the neighborhood first policy has been one of our Stellar successes Prime Minister Modi has laid a lot of emphasis on development relations with our neighborhood uh our investments in our neighborhoods or lines of credit grants in Aid focus on connectivity on building infrastructure has yielded tremendous results our own lines of credit to the neighborhood have increased from about 3 billion in 2014 to 15 billion in 2022. so we have invested a lot in neighborhood connectivity and development and we talked about vishwas and sabka prayas we are talking about the neighborhood also because unless you bring


talking about the neighborhood also because unless you bring them into your sphere of development growth and prosperity you can never hope to do that in isolation I mean your neighbors need to be part of that and so I think whether it is on the security side and the Strategic side whether it is in the economic side and connectivity side uh whether it is on the People to People side we have achieved tremendously whether it's relations with Nepal Bhutan Bangladesh Sri Lanka Maldives Mauritius we've done Afghanistan of course uh you know has been a setback but that is the geopolitical level and even there I think we're managing it very well um Pakistan is a different Paradigm there's no sauce also when it comes to Pakistan yeah so obviously it is a different case and until and unless uh look every time you've taken an initiative to improve relations Pakistan and Prime Minister Modi has done his best he has gone to Lahore himself he has reached out he has done whatever it


he has reached out he has done whatever it takes but it in response you've had uh terrorist attacks that have had a tremendous impact you know a negative impact so um there is clearly a linkage between development of relations and the sort of reaction that you can have from from various quarters of that country so uh the the point that has been made is that a terrorism does not pay and B you cannot have a normal relationship with a country like Pakistan unless there is an in principal decision to uh to not support uh terrorists no Terror and talks together so that impact is there and you know I think um um it is the credit of this government that this this policy has been reinforced and that we've not had any issues uh you know with that country lately yeah um we have tried to extend the same Paradigm that we have had with other countries to Pakistan including in the power sector as you would recall uh trade power I mean I think both countries could benefit in those areas but response


think both countries could benefit in those areas but response hasn't been uh hasn't been uh what it should have been and I think there are clearly uh you know wasted interest that opposed to any forward movement in that relationship and I think it is important for us to protect our own interests and show that our our uh you know Safety and Security of our citizens is kept a Paramount and and I think um to that extent we will uh you know uh have to continue unless there is a there is some uh very serious change in that attitude the invitations to the special invites in the G20 you have reached out to I think Bangladesh and many other African countries and other in Gulf then why I think Pakistan has missed out and do you think that there is any initiative to bring them also in do you think we should have brought them in I think let's put it this way every presidency can invite a few countries there are limited number of countries you can invite from our immediate from our


of countries you can invite from our immediate from our neighborhood we've invited uh Bangladesh and Mauritius two countries we've invited from the Gulf region UAE and Oman from Africa we have invited the largest representation ever so we've got the we've got South Africa was already a member of G20 we've got the African Union we've got nepad which is Rwanda we've also invited Nigeria and we've invited Egypt so for the first time in a G20 you'll have six African States represented uh this is unprecedented it also shows the priority we give to the developing world um and and so uh you know every country has a certain priority which you to follow I mean uh in brics we invited all of our uh bimstick countries to participate um after all you have to keep in mind that when prime minister was elected in 2014 invited all the countries at 2019 invited all brim State countries so inclusivity in our neighborhood is part of our approach but obviously there are limits


part of our approach but obviously there are limits and there are well you know in Pakistan doesn't get invited then they get they are the nasty uh relative who's not invited to a wedding then they will try to sabotage but again we've you know because of the limitations of the number of countries we've only been invited able to invite two neighbors so there is a it's not that we invited every all countries there is a guest limit exactly okay on that note sir thank you very much uh for speaking with us and wish you all the success for the summit thank you very much I appreciate that thank you um for having me on the show thank you thank you for watching or listening in to this edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this but before going today let me also thank you for all the feedback that you've been giving us we will try and create content as per what you want us to do and


content as per what you want us to do and the guests that you want on this show namaste foreign [Music]


one alphabet separating isi and Isis there is only one alphabet separating b j y and BJP Bharat jodo yatra G20 it has 85 percent of the global GDP these 20 countries 75 percent of the world trade I think for India to be chatting it it gives you an opportunity to set an agenda where 85 of the world GDP is concerned tell a male politician you find good looking um no no I find that only George Clooney good looking where there was this Telugu wedding taking place and it was the layer Mehndi songs which were playing out there that Deepika needed to be given comeuppance for what she did during those jnu protests so they found some reason to go after Harry or Megan [Music] Megan or Harry this podcast is going to be a Blockbuster Namaste Jain welcome to the last episode of 2022 of ani podcast with Smitha prakash most of the podcasts that I have done have been very serious in nature I've had defense Personnel I've had authors I've


I've had defense Personnel I've had authors I've had doctors so the nature of the podcasts have been kind of you know on serious issues so we thought that since it's the last episode let's have some light uh not frivolous but maybe something uh that we could laugh about something that would bring about a little bit of Mirth this episode is not intended to hurt any sentiments it's not it's not intended to offend anybody so I would request you all to take this in a light-hearted manner uh just like we end this year we're just grateful that we got out of kovid we're all alive and healthy so let's look forward to 2023 with a smile on our faces so who are my guests today let's introduce them the four people who are my guest today are pretty active on social media too my first guest is sushant Serene now he's with the Observer Research Foundation and is an expert on all things Pakistan sushant has written on National Security matters and you would have seen him


on National Security matters and you would have seen him on TV debates where he takes on his opponent with the finesse that only a Punjabi from Delhi can full frontal Anand raghanathan is a scientist and author you would have seen him on TV debates too his 32nd Takia Kalam is legendary Anand is sharply witty and takes no prisoners when he decides to debate with someone no one quite knows for certain if he's a tamilian or a Punjabi does he like Mysore park or as he claims does he like chole bhature too let's discuss that today with him [Music] foreign so he comes in for a lot of ribbing but he takes it quite spottingly his brother is the spokesperson for the BJP tessing speaks for the congress party on TV debates but is not in the congress party he has friends on both sides of the political spectrum and doesn't let politics color his friendships has been on the podcast before he's many things


has been on the podcast before he's many things all at once think tanker writer podcaster National Security and defense expert very opinionated caustic sense of humor has friends on both sides of the ideological debate people on social media either love him or hate him he dresses in an odd manner you'll see that today and he speaks to shock but he is a friend of friends I have a manual here I apologize to my listeners next time I'll make that change please explain Abhijit why you dress like you are so to celebrate the integration of Kashmir into India wearing a fair run and um to you know as a mark of respect for the fallen in the Ukraine Russia War I'm wearing my Russian Fox for ushanka arctic fox ushanka okay and to celebrate the common history of Kevin Roos which provided the first tsars to Russia I've also worn my Imperial tiara see that's because it's because it's on top of the ushanka that's why but what about the scepter no


that's why but what about the scepter no you know why he's actually done it because see my scepter is a symbol of my authority and my right to strike down you should face multi-purpose I like what you are trying to incident I am not in multiple purpose gets very naughty yeah he wants to ask me [Laughter] I have no idea this is a design actually thinks that hamlogs whenever the BJP tells me go to Pakistan you are empty National I say talk to the hand yeah so what is even Shazia has this what is this she got the tricology okay something she has where she then I have a Kalma but I don't know you are one of the most religious people I know [Music] [Laughter] so they said you can't have a flag pin so that's my so then I got a tattoo done the music was terrible right I don't know why people are getting their nickels under twist over it the music was terrible the choreography Deepika who's got her knickers


the choreography Deepika who's got her knickers yeah what are they protesting about I don't know the knickers the color of the knickers the color the color is the problem the color is the problem I don't think uh the fact she is you firstly why only Deepika nobody talked about what Shahrukh looks like have you seen I mean this is a manal so I'm the only woman so I mean excuse me excuse me you just perpetrated gender genocide I I am not going to participate where you have verbal genital mutilation happening on TV sorry sorry sorry you know sorry very sorry we are are the only two women here so we are outnumbered because 18 male gender so obviously they will talk about Deepika why can't we talk about Shahrukh yes I can also talk about I think it's quite hot I don't think he's hot he's quite hot in that song is that uh spray painted or is it really yeah even I want that is [Laughter] since he was the


I want that is [Laughter] since he was the first one to come in so he said I said um I take strong exceptions and from this and from that and may I start palpitating I said you know where is this guy going from the next there was this do you remember there used to be somebody on Twitter called major majorly profound no no no majorly PhD or something at first it was PhD majorly profound so he used to talk about Pakistan a lot and nobody knows whether he was a Pakistani or he was an Indian but he knew Pakistan so well and so people were convinced it cannot be anybody else so he was the one who said there's this word called uh you know right yeah you're liable to him yeah killed in the sin not just killed but uh assassinated basically right you're watching because you have violated whatever so he said together he started that term called foreign I would have lost the job because even while I was in training I used to say the


while I was in training I used to say the railways is a moribund organization to the DRM the guy I was reporting this is the divisional Railway manager or something the guy was reporting to I was still a probationer and the guy was shocked kid this guy is talking like this I knew I was and I'm now talking about the early 90s right mid 90s uh and there was this hotel out there where there was this Telugu wedding taking place and it was the layer Mehndi songs which were playing out there so the cultural uh Invasion started in the 90s yeah that's it that two kinds in the world so this is a very interesting information has one Punjabi song basically yeah yeah firstly nobody even knows do you remember the song it used to run everywhere and I precise from that um nobody know knew what was me but everybody would sing and I would like go to the South Indian weddings bloody and you're going Nobody Knows the meaning but


bloody and you're going Nobody Knows the meaning but have you seen the new generation of Punjabi songs which is basically one guy singing One high-pitched thing with just a door lock at the back that isn't getting popular at all I think Punjabi artists are famous no no no Once Upon a Time very toxic very toxic yeah and it stopped being that popular you know correct in the last three four years what is one major Punjabi song that's had in India it's not a new name used to be the what it used to be is no longer there and frankly uh it's very disturbing the music number one is only about drugs it's about guns it's about girls fast cars I mean that's just part of a cultural narrative that builds up and it'll go away just a phase but but we are seeing the impact of that in Punjabi what's happening about uh you know that you need to have you need to be open and everything but then it's also detrimental I


and everything but then it's also detrimental I feel that I don't know about you guys it's technically if you look at it it's not Punjabi culture it's an import of this American rap culture that these guys are imitating no Raptors you look at trap it's all about guns girls cars drugs and drugs same teams oh that way so you know it's it's Punjab could influence the rest of India as long as it had its own culture we all used to go crazy that Monsoon wedding song we used to go crazy about we didn't have to understand what he was saying it was just very catchy it was Innovative tunes and things like that right just the beat itself was something which kind of the words didn't make sense yeah but now when you import American culture with a team that you know a lot of people now find it so irritating this one very strange tune that comes all Punjabi songs now sounded the same um it's the Punjab which has gone


the same um it's the Punjab which has gone to uh America and Canada that didn't say see the yeah Canada Punch guy so you know uh we the urban uh Elite if I may call of Delhi of of Ludhiana of Chandigarh or whatever [Laughter] special treatment [Laughter] foreign [Laughter] [Music] uh all the friends I made in jail were all serial killers that jail apparently has a ridiculously high number of serial killers out there so the first they're all in politics now trust me I'm sure uh so all the guys well they're in jail they can't be in politics no but what had happened was the first guy I had met uh who I engaged to clean my uh I didn't engage it I didn't even know you could get people to clean your room and bathroom out there or whatever so you trade coupons and get people to do stuff and what happened was this guy had apparently killed and raped 13 women of whom they only found


and raped 13 women of whom they only found nine bodies Jesus then there was another great friends and I made friends he was apparently in him the Apparently an army colonel or something from the medical Corps who had chopped his wife into 200 pieces and was smuggling her out in Tiffin boxes in different boxes in different boxes gross he even impersonated a judge yeah yeah how many it's crazy but I think more than that YouTube stories there has to be a reason for that exactly and obviously living has allowed it for so long may the jail authorities were hand in love with him it's crazy imagine from the jail calling up and saying he's just calling from the top Minister's office imagine you are extorting what 200 crores yeah yeah in cash somebody's to that I'm wondering what kind of an idiot it was actually good she did apparently yeah he mapped the phone number made it come from the landline and asked her to call back and check voice didn't come back on the mobile


back and check voice didn't come back on the mobile what kind of when he was giving him cash regardless looking through the forest when I look at it tell me something 200 crores if I have that kind of money to bribe somebody you can buy anything in this country you can buy Pakistan why do you need to go through whatever he was dri or whatever it was calling from ex-person's office which was the second highest or which is the second highest office in our country executive office and he kept assuring the lady that the concerned gentleman is in touch with and he asked her to call back on the numbers another thing please tell me how do these pretty girls fall for such weirdos how does that happen why are you specifically asking that yeah because he bombed the film industry I mean also his wife is likes her heart she is and you're implying that he's not but are you sure no she's implying you're a weird weirdo the CCTV footage what what's been


weirdo the CCTV footage what what's been suspended the judge he was got uh in the actual right right and the high court has said that no Twitter handle will uh you know tweet that there is a thing that it was consensual it was in his Chambers the place may not have been appropriate but I think what the court considered was it was consensual Chambers whenever somebody talks about consensual and Chambers I think of that one video that I have seen of a certain lawyer I won't comment on it you not get it traumatizes you for life I would think that if anybody is red white tiger I pay my service stuff very well huh they will not nobody is very also very important not to talk a lot of people I I find it really weird a lot of people carry out a lot of business conversation with that yeah I can understand a car which has that glass kind of a thing and you know it's a soundproof kind of thing I can understand you're doing business


kind of thing I can understand you're doing business in a car and you're being driven somewhere but in such an open car yeah it's like but journalists will happen imagine if shushan was a business oh yeah mcbco then then he doesn't you know that is what he's a gentle giant yeah he's a gentle giant would name I'm just very careful in the company where I'm abusing otherwise I can be uh yeah frankly you know I used to get along very well with them but I think for me the break point was uh 26 and 11. yeah that after and you know what pissed me off even more uh on 26 11. was that there was nobody who was contrite about it yeah nobody showed any kind of you know there was this lip service they would pay all of them and I've seen people who I knew very well yeah you know even they would try and uh you know defend something try and sidesteppers and that was that was that really pissed me off


that was that was that really pissed me off you really are not going to get anything out of them they are so warped in their head you know they were just scared to it's not about scared yeah it's not that look just look at that clip which is doing the rounds I think yesterday these are these three young kids being asked about why don't you like India and it's it's not that you know we have a problem it's an enemy country or something like yes and that pisses me off you know and frankly the whole society has got so warped uh that I and I have seen the kind of people who I used to think are very normal regular kind of guy just ruined you right and I was so pissed off one and you know some of these guys had come after 26 11 and we were having a conversation I had lost it there because one of these anchors in his show had seen his partner was saying addressing the Taliban India and this bastard kept quiet yeah


the Taliban India and this bastard kept quiet yeah I said yeah this other guy who act pretends to be very liberal Pakistani is talking about and I said yeah who pretend to be so bloody liberal and so Progressive and other things and you kept quite good such a Shameless fellow here nobody knows that is when I said yeah but you know why I agree with sushant now this entire thing about Pakistan suddenly The Narrative and you see it on social media oh finally Pakistan is getting so Democratic they're supporting imrani Army it's actually eating more Islam it's actually getting more islamized hope for Pakistan no I'll tell you why I find you such a misfit do you say all the right things but you you defend all the wrong things I I said so yesterday no I'll tell you this very frankly you are absolutely right about you know the what you just said right now but uh look at the way you know the people whom you defend look at their attitude look


people whom you defend look at their attitude look at the kind of stuff which comes out of them yeah how could you say that and I find it really surprising that this was the party of you know supposedly freedom of nationalism it defined it you should Define nationalism that you're tweeting about mentioning Indira Gandhi right of course who can deny it yeah her contribution but when somebody tells me do this tweet this from whichever party it irritates me that I don't want to do something which you're telling me to do regardless of which party you are from which government you are State Central whatever the grandson says and then after that laugh about it okay he was laughing at the media but what does it appear you can't take that lightly man do you understand the Heritage which you come from you have to uphold that he wants everybody to remember that the union of India but he keeps forgetting it's the Indian National Congress it is Indian National Congress when you lose your nationalism the


is Indian National Congress when you lose your nationalism the problem with the party is that it simply does not understand that political differences is one thing but you know uh making mocking things which people in this country hold very dear yeah is quite another thing now these idiots think that by mocking those things they are actually going to be winning political brownie points they're actually digging the ditch even deeper for them to serious conversation I don't I don't think that's what he meant I think what he meant to say is exactly what he means he didn't quote him no he didn't quote him because he said something different no he said they were injured I agree on the language but the fact is I think the question the macro question is more important you've lost 20 people 20 of our fellow citizens are soldiers in galwan somebody he did not mention Galvan he didn't mention the year no he spoke about in that when he when that he was making he was making I noticed for a fact now


making he was making I noticed for a fact now the thing is that we hold nehru responsible for 62 and rightly so the political leadership should be held responsible why don't we hold the political leadership responsible it was a strategic political failure in galwan not a military failure that's the issue about China I agree with you I think incident again are you going to compare was it the army or was it the political okay ship we'll get derailed but let me just there was not number one if the isi guy was coming it was part of an investigation team which was coming should have been allowed there was nothing wrong in it because there was no sensitive area in which they were going number one we asked them that they said we want to send an investigating team we said okay fine you should have said then who will not have a case out there now because you want them we will send our evidence to them um either you say that look it was and and it probably was the isi was pretty


was and and it probably was the isi was pretty much in the loop on what that was all about was you know so the point is but if you are going to if somebody has to investigate a crime then it has to be that investigation investigate the crime okay let's read that even at pathankot energy was put in not the army unit the Army units I agree with this scene in that I don't think there was anything particularly objectionable with what he said but given his it's not what he said it's how it appears appears exactly I'm not looking at the content here you remember that thing he said about Modi but the BJP used it against him and now everybody thinks what he was saying this what you know what he learned from his past mistakes victimization that he has about the Indian media you won't do this if you actually see if tomorrow akhilesh starts a yatra or if Mamta starts a yatra nobody will give so much coverage they get unimaginable uh coverage uh


so much coverage they get unimaginable uh coverage uh in in the media but he's still upset the coverage also that Rahul gets unfairly is night after night Rahul is asked questions not as much as the Prime Minister I think that is wrong rahul's not running this country he's held responsible for mistakes and he's holding him responsible tonight Anand is with me a complete act that media is ignoring immediately he has his favorite band of journalists he carries them around for example I'll give you an example and tessin is here now with last couple of days a story has broken that the adivasis were completely against but Congress ruled chattisgarh government was allowing adani Enterprises to mine millions of tons of coal from its forests from a congress rule state take it to Rajasthan to generate power another Congress rule state journalists clarification so don't say that the media is playing tense for but but once again one wrong does not justifying if you feel that there's something wrong in


justifying if you feel that there's something wrong in chattisgarh which by the way that cold project I'm a little aware of it is a central government it's under the cold again it's not the project testing it's not this guy has been saying politics is a lot about perception I agree how do you manage the perception I agree how have they managed the perception when you say without thinking what you are saying then obviously another perception but I'm just disagreeing that the victim thing that's not true he is victimized as a perception battle May what happened in Maharashtra tell me has udhav lost the perception battle has shinde won the perception battle can I say this since I come from since you are from Maharashtra I think and I'm going to be very upfront here one I think this aligns with the shift Cena are you saying it now you should allow me 30 seconds of laughter yeah it's harming because the core Congress vote look Congress loses votes when a regional party


Congress vote look Congress loses votes when a regional party grows it stands up against the BJP win lose Congress loses its relevance number one so your co-worker who is not a chefsina voter is now suddenly thinking it's okay to go to shifts you know so you'll lose your importance number one number two I don't understand and I'm saying this very openly on that Metro issue okay the high court till that point they cut the tree's house against it why do you want to cut so many trees you could have figured out a way they've already cut their trees 47 trees the High Court ruled ngt ruled Supreme Court ruled again you're going for those 47 trees and you're stalling development people get against you which Aditya was doing I am not I don't like this but he is good 10 seconds [Laughter] Congress is not anti-development it is going to destroy the state this old pensions reverting to Old I'll tell you why Mohan Singh was a votary for junking this old


Singh was a votary for junking this old pension scheme and getting the new pension scheme Montague is on record saying there is no bigger freebie than this old pension scheme it will destroy the state it's gonna you know 78 of the tax revenue of Himachal is going to go and paying for the whole pension scheme here 78 percent now I want you to repeat because you have specifically said that Congress is pro-development scheme why have you gone back the Prime Minister only to be to be fair to uh uh your husband no but first let your husband talk then that's the sanskari way of doing it he has been telling me since the alliance was formed this is not good for us actually he's been saying this for five six years the point which you make the political point is but where you are missing out in that congress party no longer has that fire in the belly that I want to recover my political ground but what is this because a fantastic win for congress


what is this because a fantastic win for congress it's a win in a Hindi Heartland State it's a win in a state with 95 Hindu population 65 upper caste population and it's a win also on niche of nationalism remember Priyanka Gandhi's campaign was against agneepath now you can agree disagree with agnivir it was a campaign foreign let's go back on we'll come to the finances Congress should celebrate just to note Himachal was the one state where Rahul did not go and campaign has already gone on air to say that um smiles when he says Priyanka and then of course everybody this is a fact why are we doing this let's not do that so you know the thing is that you talked about seven minutes did this whole talk about you know celebration the the BJP gets criticized hell of a lot that um you do this when even it's a minor Victory the Congress on the other hand is so used to being a Shia whipping itself that they forget that


being a Shia whipping itself that they forget that it is reason enough to celebrate I'm sorry Congress headquarters and I'll tell you what the problem is and and I'll add to what you say and I agree to this sometimes you feel that media is not being fair to you which I agree but had you gone 8 pm to Congress headquarters everyone would have cut in okay people would have cut into as much time as PM would have he's PM but visuals are there it's a visual game why is getting the coverage it's getting the coverage social media media picks it up local media you know it is uniting India against the Congress actually I think to some extent and I think it's got a momentum going where now how much ever you attack a t-shirt choose I think for the Congress supporter or the anti-bjp supporter there is something to look forward to and the character is motivated exactly what the BJP wanted I don't want a United opposition they want Congress as an opportunity you know this whole thing of