what it's good to meet and chat where do things get stuck Kashmir or more no I think it's the whole mindset it's a whole mindset Kashmir to me is the excuse the Pakistan Army finds Kashmir as a useful tool to retain Supremacy in Pakistan if you take Kashmir if you there's an article once father saying had written many many years ago that what if Pakistan India and Pakistan come to an agreement and what if for our given's sake the Pakistani and the Indians say yeah take it take Kashmir what will you do then the answer is then we will say that now we've got more territory to defend against these wretched Indians so we must expand he must have bigger Army you must have more weapons so they'll turn the equation around nothing will change in the Pakistan Army because nothing will change in the Pakistan mindset is the raw totally oriented towards one enemy which is Pakistan or is it ready for this two front war that we've already arrived at where there's


front war that we've already arrived at where there's China also I've always felt and I've always said so that a main threat is China Pakistan can give you is a nuisance value will give you hurt sometimes it'll give you it can't defeat you it can't overpower you militarily militarily or any other way they can't overpower you but the Chinese can make a difference to your lives they are more powerful their economy is much bigger the Army is much bigger they have greater and then we are dealing with the totalitarian state where decisions taken are not questioned here we are not even prepared to accept that Bala Court happened so for us to be able to one minute what do you mean we are not ready to accept Bala Court happen who we the Indian opposition that didn't accept balakot was actually that it was a fake or it didn't really happen and how many killed that kind of thing so when your own opposition wants to discredit you how are you going to fight


to discredit you how are you going to fight a joint War so at that time the thing was that proof Nidia so how much of a responsibility is it of rnaw to give when you give intelligence to the political leadership do you have to hand over Intel as in proof Intel like satellite maps or what to say definitely satellite maps are given to show the locations after all we get handed over the tip yes please explain that what happened for those who don't know about this whole conversation that happened tell us about that you know when they had mounted this attack in uh on the on Cargill and up to a point they were doing well we were at the receiving end and they were pounding us from Heights and then as this tide began to turn Musharraf had gone to Beijing and there he Rings up Aziz Khan and they talk to each other and the conversation is the guys were fighting and that we are controlling the whole operation so um don't have to tell him anything


whole operation so um don't have to tell him anything just tell him everything is okay but we'll carry on like this don't tell the Prime Minister don't tell them the Prime Minister yeah okay so that conversation gave evidence that the Pakistani they were saying that we have not done it the infiltrated or not that they are actually involved so RDW taped that conversation we had tape that gone we got that tape and we would never declare it but it was found to experience to declare it and then that pipeline closed I mean the sense that we couldn't get hold of any open conversation like this between the visiting when the visit abroad the next when they visited abroad the next time they didn't use the same method of communication but did it Aid in ending a war it made a lot of difference yeah that that's after that uh Nawaz went running to Bill Clinton Bill Clinton because he had been done in by his own people yeah suppose that line had not been there in that conversation it wouldn't have


not been there in that conversation it wouldn't have hurt no it would have hurt still because the fact is that you're admitting that you are doing it and saying you're not doing it therefore we are telling the world this is this is an invasion this is not a freedom fight you know there's so much difference between Pakistan and India when I was speaking with General Kulkarni he mentioned this incident that when operation make doth when siachen was you know it brought under Indian control being a series said to have stormed into GHQ in Pindi and uh she's supposed to have brought Bangles with her I don't know this is folklore and she's supposed to have thrown The Bangles on the table and said that you have lost and she was killed at some point of time I'm not saying Musharraf did it but musharov got his revenge in that she died Bhutto at that time insulted General Ayub Khan the military insulted he was assassinated you can never


military insulted he was assassinated you can never imagine a parallel in India so those who say India Pakistan we are the same people what do you have to say to that we are not the same people and here the the the ethos is totally different if I mean look at the way our army function look at the way their army functions their overlords they rule the roost they they I know um Pakistani once and he said I've met you for the next Diplomat I I used to be a friend of so and so who is now an air marshal I say yeah he's retired okay give me his address was visiting so I said so-and-so place he was familiar with Delhi he looked DDA flat air marshal yeah middle class income middle income group Housing Society is what DDA is which is like two bedrooms or three bedrooms maximum with a small balcony uh and no Garden as such to speak of that is what a DDA is so it's unimaginable I'm just explaining it


is so it's unimaginable I'm just explaining it to our viewers sir because you know uh we have people who live abroad who may not know what a DDA flat is I never remember that yeah so just to explain to them that you know that's why people make fun keyboard plotistani Pakistan it goes by rank you're allotted Land by rank for Thailand is allotted to the generals first and then picking order right now if if I was to you know you in earlier in the interview in this podcast you were talking about successes and failures we've had one prime minister who was assassinated we've had one ex-prime Minister who was assassinated was that Intel failure did was Mrs Gandhi not told that her bodyguards I mean it could be raw or IB or whoever uh is the Intel story is the story I heard about Mrs Gandhi's case was that they had withdrawn the Sikh gods and she found out that those two or three didn't know by name but they had gone


or three didn't know by name but they had gone and they were replaced and she said that bring them back otherwise how can I be considered secular this is the legend I don't know I have never no have don't have the evidence but that's how it happened so there are times where uh Prime Ministers disregard uh intelligence that is given to them you know when you see them going and mixing with you know the politicians love this adulation and mixing and that's part of part of their drill I suppose part of their way of life want to be seen with the people shaking hands and moving around but that's a security man's Nightmare how do you know absolutely that's how Rajiv died ltte LTT because he was in not but I don't think he had any guards then was there intelligence that he would have been assassinated later I think they found decode messages that were decoded later that there was evidence that they might that they were planning but you know it's like saying that


were planning but you know it's like saying that 911 also information was available but those are information that came to be analyzed after the event because so much comes in you don't know which is right which is wrong so where were you in 1984 1984 golden temple time no way in 1984 I'm going to tell you why 84 where were you 90 were you in India yeah so 84 is Operation make dude 84 is Operation Blue Star and 84 is when Mrs Gandhi died or was assassinated two huge military operations that she undertakes bold some say not probably planned probably as far as blue star is concerned and she's assassinated does it come as a shocker to the intelligence community at that time it's the first prime minister assassination that's happened to the country I mean CIA has gone through this before um isi has had assassinations in their country it's the first assassination of an Indian Prime Minister sitting prime minister how does the intelligence Community cope with this it's you know how


the intelligence Community cope with this it's you know how do I say it I was not in Delhi when this happened I was in Srinagar and then we heard this news and you know the whole office just like you know almost see physically crumbling and they were we had some Sikh officers to they were personal there I mean it there was just there's no explanation there was no um definition of how what you felt There Was Fear there was a sadness of course and although many said that this shouldn't have happened Golden Temple should not have happened but that's not a matter the fact that she was killed a woman killed you know we also have that kind of a Feeling and killed so it it was it was shock it was just shocked like anybody else it wasn't the I suppose different from my but then what happened later was even worse the riots the riots that and you know when you have seek of sick personnel with you and you have these rights and


personnel with you and you have these rights and you you have to tell them go and stay in this place go and hide is this Intel available from from our friends abroad that uh this kind of a thing could happen that the kalistanis could be mounting not just an attack on a prime minister but subsequently they would be doing much more a real and potent threat at that stage you if you if you read the sidhu's book he said it was all yeah made up we we created it ourselves but you know once you create then it has a life of its own and then it evolves and develops and then it gets you know repeat repeat to fences or copycat instant like now there's amarpal Singh movement is growing this one of course is obviously aided from abroad but the other one bindranwala thing was just that he it just got out of hand prabhakaran to prabhakaran also we uh we didn't get out of hand maybe we just couldn't handle it let me come to the


we just couldn't handle it let me come to the attempt assassination attempt on Rajiv Gandhi tell us about that October 2nd yes 1986. there was where were you it was a headquarters hmm and we saw that report came to us a few days before that this is going to happen is going to take a pot shot and we Faithfully sent the report off to who was supposed to act on it well the report got lost somewhere so they had apparently surveyed the whole area but forgot the bush forgot to look up at the tree huh bush tree tree yeah he was sitting in a tree yeah but they used they used those detectors and everything he stayed the night he stayed overnight fortunately nothing happened he was not all that well I believed he was not all that well armed he didn't have he had a shotgun it wasn't a highly Lethal Weapon or anything but depends on how it's fired or when it's fired so he was then later on they said no


fired so he was then later on they said no this man is off it was mentally off yeah was that to cover up the fact that uh yet another prime minister had become vulnerable to an attack assassination attempt you know how do you react in sitting in raw that is there a is there a slanging match yelling match that happens then there was no yelling match as far as I remember because I didn't participate in any of the discussions but apparently my chief went and said that you had this hmm I believe some some heads rolled that day the prime ministers that you worked with the self went gave tell straight up that's the like you don't necessarily go via the National Security advisor right you spoke that was as far as I know it was prime minister vajpai and Dr Manmohan Singh I didn't interact with Mr doctor at all okay I had only one prime minister my term was too short two years and three months okay today was my last day 20 years ago okay


okay today was my last day 20 years ago okay so when you spoke with uh prime minister vajpayee what was that like like how did he process information did you give him information about Cargill or was it somebody not Cargill sorry yeah Cargill no you were two Junior then probably to speak with them I I wasn't here anyway okay so what about when you became Chief and when you used to meet prime minister vajpayee what were those he was he was a very um kind in the sense that patient he would listen to you patiently comment and and you know you you could argue with them and say no this is that you could even say this is not the right way I would do it like this prepared to listen and prepare to change his line of thinking so we also at that time had a very strong principal secretary Rajesh Mishra who's similarly uh mental makeup was similar but you could you could say that this is what you're suggesting is not possible I would want you


you're suggesting is not possible I would want you to do it like this there would be a discussion he'd hold his ground I'd hold mine and come back then I go back again the next day and and he's prepared to listen again and change his mind because he had the confidence so did vajpayer that inner confidence came I can be wrong or the other man is saying is probably better and that that helps you a lot when you're sending in your assessments that even if I am wrong I can be wrong also I mean not that my assessment is always right but it will not be he was wrong in trusting nawash Sharif wasn't he yeah I think all prime ministers have made that mistake unfortunately what mistake of trusting the counterparts Bhutto Indra Gandhi Indra Gandhi she trusted him she said later I could wait for you to say that it's a bilateral issue and I went back on that um who was after him I don't think Rajiv Gandhi no Rajiv there


don't think Rajiv Gandhi no Rajiv there wasn't much but yes I don't think he trusted her and he didn't have that much of interact but she was totally uh on board with the military as far as Kashmir is concerned first time when she said she wanted to say wailing and shouting yeah so those who say think that she's an apostle of peace is this post-assassination building of a matterhood around also after she lost the second time you've met her several times right yep she was changing her tune becoming more pro-india and after her second term when she wanted to go back to Pakistan and she was advised not to do it they'll kill you she said I have to do it she went so but it doesn't end with that even to date Mr Modi went to Pakistan with good intention he stopped by Nawaz sharif's uh home he invited nawash Sharif for the swearing-in ceremony he trusted Xi Jinping invited him over uh these are things that


Jinping invited him over uh these are things that political leaderships do it's a different matter that from nehru's time we have been stabbed in the back so would the intelligence organization say stop don't do this or do this Beyond a part you can't say it Beyond a point you can't say this is not advisable sir that's it you want to do it what can you do but you I can't hold the door and say you can't go but you have to stay the path in providing them intelligence how they consume it is the part of it's their job it's their job okay now um is intelligence tailor-made to suit what the political leadership wants because we heard that with say you know George Tennant and giving tailor-making that intelligence for George Bush yeah for the war slam dunk slam dunk has something similar happened in India not that I'm aware of that we've given information that the chief wants to hear partly perhaps also because you know for them Stakes are much higher when you


you know for them Stakes are much higher when you say Chief you mean prime minister yeah prime minister I mean for us we'd say it's a one to the decision making is the prime minister and his cabinet we tell the Prime Minister what we think of a situation and beyond that I have not heard of anybody saying his report however unpleasant information is given to the prime minister to the best of my knowledge yes did you feel at any time when you achieved that you gave information and it was not acted upon and there's a sense of regret I can't think of any no acted on everything oh I mean you you give the information and how they act is you're not aware I'm not aware of what they did with it they don't tell me they don't have to tell me and I don't have to know maybe you when that uh Air India plane was hijacked Indian Airlines plane was hijacked I was in Delhi 1819 yes I wasn't really I just landed in Delhi well


wasn't really I just landed in Delhi well a month to Before from an assignment of posting yeah posting what went wrong then simply not being able to take the right decision at the right time and that's very crucial right in the intelligence world yeah no once the hijacking has occurred to prevent it from going further you have to take a decision like like you the the station commander of the air at Rome knows that airport knows that when a hijack takes place you have to make every attempt to prevent that put a Bowser in front of the aircraft or whatever then the fear is that if the hijackers say if you do that I'll kill six people or I'll kill 10 what do you do if that happens then everybody will blame the station Commander and that's it so he doesn't Choice yeah so you you pass the buck I'll ask the commissioner I'll ask the Deputy Commissioner commissioner Chief secretary PM chief minister so where how do you enforce that order which exists


so where how do you enforce that order which exists in your book that you have to do this and if the plane I got forbid if they had blown up the plane all dead nobody will ever say that he was acting according to rules and the rules is that we don't negotiate with terrorists we don't we don't do hospitals but we do we do we control every country does eventually you do negotiate you have to that is when you need Experts of that kind and then we release those hostages yeah and the minister escorted those hostages yes as suppose you know this was not the first time we did it we did it in uh Srinagar also so they know that these chaps they will act they will release eventually but after that what happened hijackings just stopped in the world um did Terror organizations just stop was there this thing that naked or did it continue with taking hostages at a different level did Security increase what happened I think then it kind of hostages uh method


I think then it kind of hostages uh method of taking hostages has changed it has um like the hostages that they take in in the Middle East they don't need any aircraft they don't need anything you just come pick them up and take them away take them away when we talk about uh you know people you've been working with uh I've heard everything is in silos like you could be working your room could be next to another person's room and you've known that person for 15 years 20 years but you won't know what he's working and he won't know what you're working now for us journals it's very hard to understand because hum looks of information no it's like this um when you're doing operations not just analysis through separate things when you're doing operations then it is not only silos it can also be that this guy at the bottom of the rung does it with the third or fourth guy from the top and the guys in between don't know and need to know they will not know so


know and need to know they will not know so The Silo works like this comes down number three goes to number seven four five six submitted and we are all expected to accept that this is an operation where it's so sensitive you don't want too many people involved but an analysis is different because then you need to interact after all if you're doing something in China and Pakistan you must have the Pakistani assessment as well on the situation to make a full picture it may not happen at the lower level it will happen at some level there will be an interaction between the and people who are assessing the intelligence to make sure that you factored in everything whether you factored in The Intercept messages you factored in the photographs you've acted in the audio etc etc to make a complete picture but when you're doing operations then it's different so what happened with that rabindra Singh episode I mean you had retired by then he escaped and the rumors are that he is no more so where did things


are that he is no more so where did things go wrong I really don't know I've never asked anyone and no one will tell me when they shouldn't but you knew him well I knew that it was rabindra Singh it was a joint secretary in the organization he wasn't a particular friend of mine and uh I think you see the good thing is every every intelligence agency's nightmare is that there is a mole you've written that in your book no so that is the fear that you have but you don't know how to find him unless you can keep they do random uh searches surveillances on people they must have done it on me also and everybody else it gets his turn is a behavioral counter Intel or something the inbuilt system who you meet where do you go etc etc so probably during that thing I found out or probably because he I believe he became very inquisitive so that was a signal so if we're homing in on him but the thing is that he's


in on him but the thing is that he's twice trained meaning he's trained by us yeah for a certain kind of job he's been trained by his Masters how to look for signs how to look for Escape Routes how to lay down Escape Routes that must have been worked out so when the news tightened he fled via Nepal yeah I suppose so yeah I believe so that's always the porous route and even now people saying that Amrita Radha and nikal Gaya nobody really knows but that's the porous route which has been used many times many times sometimes for Advantage us sometimes that's how the hijackers even got the weapon they got the weapon like that and but they also had Indian passports given by Bombay RPO genuine genuine passports yeah somewhere I have a record of their names and all hmm and in Hindu names and they made use of that so I'm going to come now to the Bollywood depiction and the Hollywood depiction of what uh spy networks are you know


depiction of what uh spy networks are you know when you look at the Hollywood movies uh across the years you know like if it is even the British movies if you were to see Bond movies and you see then you know all the James Bond movies and then you see Hollywood depiction of their spy movies Bridger spies and I can name so many of them uh they're so well made they're so sharp and then you have Indian spy movies which Indian spy movie would you say is the closest to the truth is it Salman Khan tiger would it be Akshay Kumar you're laughing they're hilarious movies and it's only see them as a as a comedy it's okay but not serious movies this Salman Khan movie is more likes a Bond movie with more glamor and what is it isi girl and uh ridiculous story anyway but it it's all I believe yeah so what about the other movies like what about pathan you know of all the all the raw people that I have seen in


the all the raw people that I have seen in my life I've never seen anybody who looks like John Abraham or Shahrukh Khan so do you have people in your organization who look like Shahrukh no Salman no Akshay no I mean you might have a a tall good looking funnel but the whether he's physically fit that way I don't know would he be would an raw officer be romantically involved with an isi officer I'll be short if he does that shot by who am I the isi Oh by this kind it depends if you don't say it but it's shot by who no if it is a an operation that you go and support that girl it's different but if he does it on his own then it's different so do you know of like of course there's that you know that movie of Alia Bhatt that is based on real life that is razi razi where she was sent across she got married and settled there are instances when it's happened their marriages do take


instances when it's happened their marriages do take place like this but she works lives in a general's house she is able to do the communication Network and she is able to get documents and something else and then she's actually been married off by some her Handler or something like that I don't remember the sequence I think it's a bit rich but you would have years ago I mean is there any operation that you can talk about where somewhat similar to what happened you can't talk about no I I didn't have an operation like that that's what you're saying I'm sure there must be some operation you can tell us about there is no such operation no such operation involving the raw with the isi but is there any operation where you've sent somebody on a mission and has been successful of course across the border and he's come back alive with information yes and was that information acted upon I don't know and what is there any my job is to collect information and give it my job is not to know whether


and give it my job is not to know whether they will act on it or not but you can deduce from events whether it has been acted upon or not and sometimes you can make out that yes there has been a change in policy change in direction or changing tactics but you can never boast about it you can never talk about it never your successes and your failures stay with you failures get known successes stay even failures are not known right one doesn't know all the failures yeah yeah what happened yeah what happened with with our operation in Sri Lanka why did we just leave we lost men and material we've lost land in on the Eastern sector there must have been some failures there was there must have been some failure in pulwama but you know all major incidents Mumbai repeatedly they're all systemic failures the whole system seems to have information is available nobody acts Cargill information is available nobody really takes it seriously and this happened you can't pinpoint assassinations you can't


happened you can't pinpoint assassinations you can't pinpoint all Terror attacks they have to be right ones as you've said in many occasions you can't stop all of them they will keep happening so whether that you call it failure of intelligence or or lack of intelligence imperfect intelligence that's a matter of judgment but they will happen you've been critical in your writings about how the media reports on incidents and especially on 26 11 uh you your colleagues who have written after you those who uh superannuated they have been very angry about how the media reveals information yeah that's true what are the lessons that the media should have learned after 26 11 what is it that you feel that there is a better sense or there or they haven't learned at all after 26 11 which are the major incidents we've had several yes no tendency of course is to First say failure of intelligence and then to talk about failure but the worst is when you give live commentaries on an ongoing incident that has


give live commentaries on an ongoing incident that has always to be avoided because that is the worst thing in these days of satellite Communications and everybody their Master mind is sitting the other side watching it he knows who is hiding where and he's telling them I mean it's it's fortunate that the court hold of kasab otherwise you would not have known anything so we have that I think this is a kind of training that we have to give media that look you please cover but don't do live coverage it's not a cricket match therefore live deafer live next day maybe don't say what is going on you know this is what's happening I've spoken to so and so that is something that you have to strictly avoid but then uh you know it was during the Iraq war that there was something called embedded journalism where uh in a war uh situation the military takes journalists with them the Intel operatives travel with the journalists and information is fed to the journalist and and then critical questions are


fed to the journalist and and then critical questions are not asked because the media is embedded with the military so we saw this during the the war that was the first war where you had that embedded journalism and all you got was that oh thought what a fabulous thing that's happening everything is in hindsight you know that there were no wmds yeah you fought a wrong war obl was sitting somewhere else he was sitting right next to Pindi yeah he was sitting in a different country altogether you bombed Afghanistan so what is the mistake then the journalist did what he was supposed to do he didn't do live he went with the military he reported on what the intel was provided to him and what the military gave well that's he's providing doctored information the doctoring is done by the Intel organization and the military yeah it is done by them to to uh to strengthen your narrative to strengthen your storyline that we've done the right thing and see how great we


we've done the right thing and see how great we are we got this place we got that place these chaps are running away but you don't tell the truth you don't tell the civilians how many civilians were killed you got the wrong bomb wrong wrong place was bombed that nobody gets to hear this part of your media management would India do that kind of media management that's falsification yeah I hope not because you if you give wrong in information it has to be both ways Smith eye because the media should accept that there's not everything that they should report there is always wisdom and not reporting something at that time because then you're hurting the guy who's fighting the war for you you're endangering him and civilians if you give out details but if you want to do it later if you want to do a critique two days three days four days later that's fair enough because we will make mistakes when these things happen we somebody will get killed by mistake erroneously it will


will get killed by mistake erroneously it will happen because In the Heat of the battle you don't really know so there has to be a an understanding that there is a terror event and I need not talk all about talk all everything about it I should withhold something till confirmation or advice and then let it be known right now this kind of thinking that it's for the country it's for the soldier it's for it's for security these are things that come naturally say because of your training you're in the Raw it would come naturally to you it would come naturally to a soldier a uniformed Soldier there's no such training imparted to a journalist no such training imparted to now not just a journalist anybody with a cell phone you can pick take a picture yeah so we saw that happening in the Eastern sector when the whole crisis was happening with galwan and all that there were people who were taking videos politician on the ground or whatever that also happens so um what


ground or whatever that also happens so um what kind of what should a civilian do at that stage he has the visual he has he has some proof that something has happened what does he do does he call the media and say hey I have pictures that that infiltration has happened does he tell the cops does he what should what should we or should he be just post it on Twitter I think the responsible thing to do is to tell those who are exposed supposed to guard you or guard the territory that I have this information you confirm it or deny it up to you but if you're going to put it out on Twitter then whose cause are you serving it means that everybody knows your enemies know the man who's done it knows so does the the uh the military man who might be seeing the Twitter or Whatsapp or wherever it is but then the whole world knows and then you have politicians of one side taking advantage of it you have politician on the other side denying


it you have politician on the other side denying it then you get into denial acceptance mode which helps no one so we have to I think and the interaction between the media and the security agencies has to be livelier has to be more accommodating it's usually suspicious yes it should be look that you have it is your job to report I'm telling you too I'm helping you to report the right thing and I want you to not report this till it is over because this for reasons of security after that you can so this kind of an understanding has to be education has to be built in the media that not everything is trb not everything there is a thing called the nation that needs protection and if you're going to endanger your own men then how are you going to be able to protect them or help them protect you if you're exposing everything and then they'll say I'm not going to do it because I get exposed fortunately it doesn't happen hasn't happened yet but that


doesn't happen hasn't happened yet but that could be the feeling of the family who says that you know because you expose this my husband died that is not fair at all because behind each Soldier each intelligence officer there is a family there is a group of friends there's an organization who are meant to provide intelligence and protection if you're going to hurt them then how do we go further what about intelligence sharing between the various arms of intelligence in the organization I mean in the country like does the IB and the raw and the military intelligence and the others do they share information or are they very territorial there is an element of territoriality that has to be admitted but you have we have a center poet where information should reach that's where the sharing should take place which is where arbitration should be the jic and now I think it's the nscs where the arbitration would take place about the intelligence reports but there is there is an element of you know I got it first or


an element of you know I got it first or situation among Intelligence on the ground at the field station not wanting to share right um without naming I would say that sometimes uh say one Minister cannot get along with the Prime Minister that Minister has got the information will not share with the pmo or the pmo has information but the action has to be taken by the defense minister or by the home minister and there have been instances in the past where because of these the competitiveness of these politicians the intelligence falls through the crack what then National Securities put at risk well sharing if you don't share then you obviously creating problems for everybody and it has to be institutionalized in the sense that you've got to share it if you don't share it there has to be somebody has to be blamed for it or felt responsible have you seen this happening no you have never seen this happening that intelligence was given to politicians and because of their personal rivalries actually raw doesn't give any


of their personal rivalries actually raw doesn't give any intelligence to any politician except the Prime Minister but for the prime minister to act he has to share that or he has to tell others do they do that it depends you know if you're if you're giving an information which relates to the Army and you want to share it at that particular level then you do sometimes send the report both to the defense minister and the prime minister so it is shared and is like advice given for example you say that an attack is imminent so we should preemptively attack is that kind of you just you just tell them you're a preemptive attack that's it unless asked we will not say it what should be done is not in the Ambit of the raw no okay right so in conclusion if you when you look back on your years in the Raw would you have done uh anything differently would you have like said no this is not what I want to do I want to do something else oh lots of


do I want to do something else oh lots of things you might have done differently but how to say it no that um it's it's all actually how you look at a situation if you think that you're an optimist and you feel that you will get a get a result from this but if you think you're a realist and you feel that you won't get any result from this so if you're asked then I would say no I don't think you should be doing it like this it won't work for you so apart from that living a life in the shadows not being able to uh not being able to pursue relationships with friends in a totally open and transparent manner like you said there are sometimes your you have to keep a duplicitous personality does it impact on your psyche no I think you get used to it there are some people who can't take it and they quit and go away there are some who stay on who who enjoy the work you've got to love the work you got


the work you've got to love the work you got to enjoy it and you got to be ready for surprises you you can't always be ready for something will surprise you but you've got to be to expect the unexpected that has to be there and grueling hours pardon me for saying this sir but I have seen often that this happens with many uh people who are in the security scenario when they are in office It's hammer and tongs against Pakistan but once they superannuate it's certainly bhaichara [Music] how does that Jekyll and Hyde happen I don't know I can't say how I can't answer them I think many of us play by the ear we play that this is the the mood of the nation this is the mood of the people or I am always right so I will pursue this goal you've ordered people to kill people you've ordered people to infiltrate their homes their organizations to get information for national interests the experts will say that this is part of my job


experts will say that this is part of my job I have to trouble on him so I have to play with them and he is playing the same game with you he wants to support you too so there's two playing the same game that I'll play golf with General X because I think I can put him in my pocket and he says he can play golf with Vikram suit because I think I can get him so you're tangoing huh so you play sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't work this is also an art it's also an art or a inbuild ability I'm asking a very crude question spies figure it out okay but it's true right it comes it goes It comes naturally okay when required you know it's not always we're not habitual yes okay but to not openly like if if I was to ask you have you had lunch would you say no because it automatically your training automatically comes to say tell you a lie no automatically I can say yes also I know also I


automatically I can say yes also I know also I can say yes when I have not had it and say no and I've had it with a straight face so I've seen you for several years now I remember this one incident uh when advani ji was hosting a movie uh when he was Deputy Prime Minister I don't know whether you recall that it was about loc and uh you were sitting near advani one row behind advani ji or hum log bilkulage all the you know like journalists were sitting in one corner and we were sitting there and in the movie uh it was on Cargill and that said intelligence report so he said ha what intelligence the entire audience looked towards you and your face was angry and I thought okay you know and advani ji looked at you like this sideways you didn't turn your head but your face was so angry I've never seen otherwise you have this very genial expression all the time but that day you were angry because you knew the truth intelligence


you were angry because you knew the truth intelligence yeah on the on Cargill yeah but that the story is like when when this Cargill Review Committee was going on we used to have those sessions grueling sessions and coming towards the end the senior officer comes to me and says what you're saying is right but you'll have to take the rep why you are the you've got to be the Fall Guy here and you were we I mean there was there was adverse comments on Raw intelligence shortage of intelligence weakness of intelligences and that we had given almost the entire orbit with the Pakistan Army in be okay two battalions were missing that became an issue if you get 80 of the orbit right your home so if you ask them what difference did it make to strategy if you had known these two locations would it matter no reply so that's how it was everywhere it's always the intelligence that takes the rep and you cannot say anything to that you just do your job okay to young Indians who want


just do your job okay to young Indians who want to be part of uh the Rew or intelligence network but don't want to really join the raw but want to in some way contribute to intelligence gathering to to National causes but keep a day job elsewhere how does that work that can work actually that can work you see now that we are at a stage where the root the normal source of recruitment of officers and Men through the upsc means you might get right offices you might get smart people but you're going to be looking for talent of a different kind skills of a different kind which this may not provide so you've got to find other avenues to find these this Talent you need a financial wizard you need a cipher wizard you need whatever dynamites or or whatever explosive experts Communications people you need different skills because even climate change because these are now becoming issues of security sure water water um rarer Rare Earth minerals which you've also again written in your book yes all these things you will need


in your book yes all these things you will need people where do you find them you find them in the open market what do you pay them you have to be a competitor you're talking about direct recruits now I'm talking of first finding the talent okay whether they want you want to use them as lateral entries for a fixed period of time okay five years or seven years contract over and out you help us do this project and then it's over you go or you have um people who come and stay with you and work through all the other thing like the agneepath scheme I'm coming to that exactly that you you know we now recruit a man I think I mentioned in my book also 25 26. he's recruited on deportation or initial induction by the time he is ready he's about 28 29 he's married he's got two kids the bigger the family you are going to be more and more risk-averse you don't want to take any chances though so you have a span of 30 60 years


though so you have a span of 30 60 years 30 years from 30 to 60. once he's matured but if you take a young man like like the Armed Forces do 16. you don't need a graduate or a postgraduate to be an operator to running operations you need a guy with different skills you need a person who will be able to adventurous Gambler risk taker courageous those qualities but a nationalist but a nationalist sixteen you make him your own graduate teach him language teach him a language so the by the time is 22 or 23 he is asset ready he's asset ready you got him from 28 to 60. otherwise you get a man from 35 to 60. out to the last 10 years he'll be wanting a desk job you know I go to marry my daughter off I've got to use this got old parents I can't move anywhere so you're losing that time you're getting him actually 15 years here you're getting much longer and he's there with you forever right so we have


he's there with you forever right so we have to think of those uh that's that's what I've been advocating that catch them young you can mold them right thank you so much sir for giving us your time and sharing your experiences with us uh wishing you all the very best thank you thank you for having me thank you for watching or listening into this podcast do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste click here to watch the previous episodes [Music] foreign [Music]


look better don't absolutely bad unbelievable what I saw the day previous to what else when I saw while I landed to what I was now seeing Sudden Change it turned blessed us how this particular thing came up was because bulkuma realized that the map that he was being shown had a straight line drawn from a point called nj9842 joining the karakoram pass it's not one man who does it it's a team that doesn't was quite uh forthright he said look the Chinese have occupied exciting because we were not attacked side chain then and since it's ah area we must occupy it pakistanis were sponsoring Expeditions through the saltoro Ridgeline because between the sultural Ridgeline and the karakora mountains is the siachen glacier jealous himself telling djsi so Pakistan is not a country which can be trusted at all you have to sustain 10 men on top of belafontla probably whatever tail which is a 40 to 50 men when we were hoisting the national flag over there just


when we were hoisting the national flag over there just about reaching below I find a helicopter coming from the Pakistani Direction he saw that these intels are already on top of Bill of all so he took a U-turn and went back Namaste welcome to another edition of eni podcast with Smitha prakash joining me on this Edition is my colleague Ajit Dube editor National Security 13th April 2023 marks the 39th anniversary of operation make dude it was the Indian army operation to seize control of the siachen glacier which was considered the highest Battlefield in the world in 1984 the kumau regiment one of the oldest infantry regiments of the Indian army and units from the ladakh scouts nicknamed snow leopards were tasked with the responsibility of digging into and controlling the critical Peaks and passes of the glacier why was this significant what role did it play in the india-pakistan conflict did we learn lessons from the operation on the loc the line of control between India and Pakistan and has it


line of control between India and Pakistan and has it come into play when our forces deal with the ground situation at the line of actual control with China to to speak on operation make dude I have with me Lieutenant General Sanjay Kulkarni recipient of the param vishisht Seva medal ATI vishisht Seva medal Sharia chakra Sena medal vishished Seva medal thank you for coming on the podcast General Kulkarni it's an absolute honor to have you here 39 years since operation make Duty you were a young officer then so tell us what happened then thank you very much to have invited me it couldn't have other I could not have asked for a better platform wonderful thanks once again now going back 1984 that you referred to when we launched operation make dude of course as a young Captain I was familiar with that area and that is where we had that advantage and more than anything else it is again like they say in the Army it's not one man who does


say in the Army it's not one man who does it it's a team that does it so I owe whatever now that I am sitting in front of you I will wait entirely to my men my seniors and the Battalion that I was commissioned into Pokemon having said that let me tell you that in 1978 to begin with for the first time I got to know that something like siachen is there that's primarily because he was the commandant of the high altitude of warfare school and since the commandant high altitude Warfare school he was taking some officers onto syachan and as part of the course we had to climb a peak called Stoke mangrene Lake and we were also there and that's why we found out that seniors are going you know different direction and that they were going to a place called siachen Glacier and that's where we heard for the first time Glacier and not knowing that subsequently in 83 and in 84 I would also be a part of it now how this particular thing came


a part of it now how this particular thing came up was because while interacting with one of his own foreign Mountaineer realized that the map that he was being shown had a straight line drawn from a point called nj9842 joining the kalakaram pass now that alerted him as to how come this friend of his is carrying a map and has the point joining straight and mountains you don't have straight lines because the the Karachi agreement stated Point NJ 9842 dense North onto the glaciers and it wasn't that the Karachi agreement between India and Pakistan 1949. U.N mandated agreement absolutely so that is what it was so he when he saw that it sort of you know put him on this thing he said he requested his friend if he could give that map to him for rupees 500. he was a civilian uh that Mountaineer was a civilian some German friend of his a mountaineer were done with him previous Expeditions and are also done river rafting uh with Colonel bulkuma and therefore


river rafting uh with Colonel bulkuma and therefore again colonel bulkarma was still in the Indian army and that is where we are interacting and he said then when he saw this map he took the map and he got in touch with the Army headquarter uh since from the Kumar regiment the chief of the Army staff then was also from the Kumar regime in general Raina and then he got into who became chief of Army staff later Jal Rana was the chief of family oh he was already the chief of Army staff so he got in touch with him and he was put through together who was then the direct ability operations as Major General and so he asked him and bull was very well known in the Army for his exploits as a excellent Mountain yeah he will climb Mount Everest so he was a very excellent Mountaineer so he went and obviously what brought him and he said well I have a map and we're in the line shown is straight from point NJ 9842 joined the karakaram


is straight from point NJ 9842 joined the karakaram pass and thereby this is which year sir this is uh I'm talking 78 788 1978. so he was obviously he said is it so and when he looked into it he said yes he said now what is it that you want us to do now he said before this cartographic aggression by the pakistanis thought Angel was quite uh foreign Glacier by not being there and since it's ah area we must occupy it how do you plan to do it so before we go on to the whole expedition of how you occupied it you use this term cartographic aggression if you could just explain to our viewers and listeners what that means you know cartographic aggression means on the map you start showing certain areas which have international recognition that it is yours so slowly and steadily people start believing that this area belongs to the country that it is and therefore uh like you find like I said the cartographic aggression Glacier is in the karakoram ranges the


aggression Glacier is in the karakoram ranges the nj-9842 that is the the last demarcated delineated map on the ground and demarcated it wasn't beyond that no demarcation could be done because it's glaciated extremely difficult to go there and therefore it was said point ng9842 then not along the glacier so down the ridge along the glacier and obviously if you joined it to the karakoram pass the Chinese are supposedly accept as a one of the points on the their so-called Lac but accept it as a point between India and China as a boundary and that's a subsequent thing because they want the karakoram ranges we look at the cubland range and in between the cunnelin range and the karakoram range as the excitement so we lost the oxygiene or a pair of girls because we did not have people over there patrolling and doing things of those kind in a manner that we should have could have shown our occupation then in 50s so having said this said let's occupy


in 50s so having said this said let's occupy so what would he do so he said we will go for a patrolling of this area so online Kumar decides to patrol with these officers from the High Altitude Warfare School were part of the advanced is called and while he's doing that he is buzzed by the you know flown the pakis flew they say budgets over them to say that over the Indian army people who were then mountaineering this particular in 1978 78 and even subsequently went okay He did it so obviously pakis saw that the Indians are showing interest in this area which they believed as I said cartographic aggression they believed that this area belonged to them so this saber jets flying over uh uh the Indian team was it some kind of an aggressive stance or messaging a messaging to the Indian that this area belongs to us and you are not supposed to be there because pakistanis were sponsoring Expeditions through the soltoro ridge line because between the


through the soltoro ridge line because between the salturo Ridgeline and the karakura mountains is the siachen glacier which is about 76 kilometers long about between two to eight kilometers wide about 300 meters deep and this Glacier is uh I don't know the boy called it the third polar region extremely cold temperatures go as low as minus 50 degrees Centigrade your wind speeds of going as high as 100 kilometers per hour and you have snowing almost about 15 to 18 meters of snow in a year so this kind of inhospitable completely absolutely totally inhospitable and most of us uh except for these Mountaineers and nobody would want to venture it out so this is what Karlin Kumar did in 78 these did it again subsequently to show this thing and the pakistanis sponsoring Expedition foreign Expeditions primarily from Japan and UK Austria all of these people who are being sponsored to that particular area so there were two passes on the saltwater Ridgeland one was called The Bella


the saltwater Ridgeland one was called The Bella formula La Means a pass and the other one was ciala and so these two passes is where these foreign Expeditions would venture through siachen Glacier on to what would be terms a mountainous Paradise lovely Peaks Sia kangri kangri means a peak salty all these lovely Peaks that were there so obviously the pakistanis sponsoring Expeditions uh virtually came to a grinding hall because none of these Expeditions could come if the Indians are on the siachen glacier so on the siachen glacier you hear most of the time pakis talk of siachen they're nowhere near because saltaro onto the west and karakoram onto the East very distinctly you can make out because karakarama black in color range is absolutely black in color and you have sultural which is light brown in color and between these two ranges is this siacin Glacier and if you read Musharraf in the line of fire he says it very clearly the Indians preempted


he says it very clearly the Indians preempted them now at that point of time in 1983-84 Musharraf was a colonel who was part of the mo the ability Operations Branch and your view to what is going on and there then uh 10 core Commander uh Lieutenant General Jahan Pete Khan he was the uh co-commander and they had the northern area commander who was a major general uh he was again I think peer Khan and they had the SSG it was a brigadier Mahmoud was in charge and uh jalakta was the isi chief of that and Jal Zia was the chief of the Army staff and the president of Pakistan so this kind of a thing and obviously when they saw that in 1983 when I had the chance of being part of uh polar bear one and subsequently polar bear II as part of the mountaineering we used to call it the long range patrolling lrp and that lrp involved staying over the glacier for a period of about 80 to 90 days


glacier for a period of about 80 to 90 days and it would invariably be conducted from the month of June July like more convenient months to be on the glacier and terminated by September October so polar bear one and polar bear 2 were in 1982 83 8383 and then 84 that is 82 we had launched Ibex hunt so Ibex hunt was a long range Patrol which was launched in 82 and 83 was polar bear one and two and up make do in 1984 on the 13th one in polar bear 2 was your first impression of the siachen glacier yes and walking on this bear one and two both there was some difference now that's a very interesting question because there is a gap between polar bear one and polar bear 2 and why polar bear 2 had to be launched because uh when we launched the Ibex hunt in 1982 that was the time for the first time I got an aerial reconnaissance of the siachen glacier because we are just about gone there in a area


because we are just about gone there in a area called that is where my Battalion was and since we were there and this long range patrolling was going on I got a chance to fly with the helicopters to be seeing what theachen Glacier is all about and as luck would have it 83 I was told that I have to lead the long-range Patrol onto the glacier that's because the officer was leading in 1982 sprained his leg so he couldn't go in 83 so as I was there Patrol twice as I said no you have to choose so how we all took on this particular mission was in 83 like what you asked the question about uh why polar bear won and why polar bear too why we are in polar bear 1 and we were venturing and we warned the search English you know to be able to get to belafontla there were three camps which have to be set up camp one Camp two and camp three and even when uh Kal and Kumar when I went to uh


when uh Kal and Kumar when I went to uh on the xiachen glacier the porters you'll be surprised were paid the same sum of money per day as they would be paid climbing Mount Everest so the portal was there in Nepal assisting Mountaineers to climb Mount Everest were being paid then the same amount would be paid to the porters who were with us on the CIA in Glacier so that because who would venture because every Potter carried just about 15 kgs logistically we were only supported by the potters and of course by the helicopters uh over there so in 1983 as part of uh polar bear one when we went up to Belafonte I saw some rappers on the glacier I said it's a surprise who who could have come along this particular route and then there were rappers with markings which I didn't know then there were the Japanese or the Chinese because the script the characters are quite similar now of course I understand the script between difference between the Japanese script


I understand the script between difference between the Japanese script and the Chinese script there were Chinese rappers or Japanese Japanese so later on I was they were the Japanese rappers and some Japanese Mountaineers that wanted to come that way so when I saw those rappers obviously on the radio set informed that some rappers have been found on top of Belafonte and uh guess who came to see and interact with me none other than the later uh Jal bipin rava to became the CDs his father was then he came he was the chief of staff over there and he asked me I told him he was Northern command he was in I think part of 15 15 okay and he came there and he asked me and he took those rappers along in 1983 having taken the wrappers and the China the pakis got to know that we are on top of Indonesia so we inducted in the month of Summer a little mid-august caspas we deanducted the Pakistan let me interrupt you because this is not something


Pakistan let me interrupt you because this is not something that many people will understand what is the induction yeah now what happens is since I told you to a long range patrolling with a specific duration that we have to stay so we go and induct ourselves onto the glacier so since we have inducted on the glacier now is the time to de-induct because the it will now get very very cold extremely cold because the time that we are there June July August are months that are reasonably comfortable that we can stay on top of the glacier so now that we are de-inducted so both India and Pakistan used to de-induct in the winter months so Pakistan would never induct okay they would never be there they never had the Pakistani officers invariably accompanied the foreign Expeditions as a liaison officer to those Expeditions okay and they would the induct with the party which we had never seen if it had happened it would have happened in 78 79 and that period but noted induction


in 78 79 and that period but noted induction mean at that stage you'd put tents or you would dig in induction meant staying on the glacier for the duration that we are supposed to be maybe 60 days 75 days 90 days whatever be the duration so you properly pitched tents over there and you stay on the glacier so you are inducted in and de-inducted from the glacier so for Pakistan viewers Pakistan was not inducting before the siachen conflict let's be clear on that he's putting it on record and now now what you just said is a very important thing when we de-inducted from the glacier the pakistanis inducted okay now they realize that this is the Indians have left the glacier they inducted to see that if they could occupy the glacier in 1983. now this was revealed even by Musharraf in his book in the line of fire I've read that twice over because I can't believe that somebody could write self-praise so much really bothered


somebody could write self-praise so much really bothered him two generals of the Pakistan Army General whom their own officers have written lacked officer-like qualities yeah and he became the chief of the Army staff and the president and a martial law dictator and they're themselves written on musharra highly indisciplined wouldn't take orders so easily he's written that in his own book that that's what happens yeah as a Commando now what had happened was they inducted and when they inducted they couldn't sustain themselves on the glacier and whether they could sustain themselves on the glacier they inducted in the month of October and they couldn't and that was the SSG and Brigade Mahmoud was supposedly there uh you know a tough man on SSG Commando Brigadier who subsequently was replaced by musharra so Mahmoud decided that his team is not able to sustain itself and they deemed that and generally how long could they stay there sir they hardly could


long could they stay there sir they hardly could stay there they came and they less than a month not even two days probably okay on themselves extremely difficult to sustain themselves but that left a note for us and that note that they left to say that look you have inducted you know on the glacier which is ours and they then for the first time admitted to say that in point nj9842 line joins the karakoram pass and not as what the Karachi agreement said dense not along the glacier so that was the first admission by the pakistanis that this line now this is very cartographic now this is very important who joined this line pass now this also has a history because it's to call the Hudson's line the Americans did it as Americans as part of uh you know for aviators to fly they must know whether they're stepping into which country and you know where are they like so they Hudson's the Americans were being told time and again in 60s that looked the whole of


and again in 60s that looked the whole of Jammu and Kashmir is part of India and you cannot have this kind of line drawn uh Pakistan occupied Kashmir Jammu and Kashmir and all that kind of thing if the whole of it is ours and uh so and therefore this cartographic straight line being drawn or drawn by a person called Hudson as part of the American survey team and that Advantage pakistanis took because they were part of sentosito organization where they were with Pakistan with the Americans and the Americans at that point of time uh want had were perturbed with the Soviet Union having come into Afghanistan the pakistanis were training the mujai to throw the Soviets out of Afghanistan so whole lot of this geopolitics playing and at the same time when this was going on Zia told his isi chief at that point of time that look keep the Indians occupied in Punjab and they only can be able to occupy the action Glacier otherwise once you know there's a confrontation


Glacier otherwise once you know there's a confrontation then we may not be able to handle it yeah 1983 was at the peak Punjabi yeah the Soviets were in uh uh Afghanistan the Americans were wanting a foothold they were using Pakistan the Taliban and all these kind of things that were cropping up at that point of time so you found that at this point of time in the note was left by the Pakistani obviously uh yeah it was clear that pakistanis are now trying to show some interest in glacio Angel Chiba was will try to say that we have to occupy nothing we can't leave it uh default Theater Company we must occupy English and that area is approximately about 5000 odd square kilometers and uh in the originates from Indra called Coco is along here the nubra river and the shock river which then meets that culture and then this river goes and meets the Indus and uh now having said that and realized and they when they attempted to come in 1983 as


they when they attempted to come in 1983 as part of uh we re-inducted that reinduction is so we went there and by then the pakis had deducted we reinducted we again deinducted and that was virtually the end coming of 1983. now the int reports started coming in that uh pakistanis had picked up almost a thousand mountaineering equipment from Europe so the entire Europe was denuded of the mountaineering equipment now this mountaineering equipment is the same as that what the Mountaineers used for climbing Mount Everest so you get intelligence from raw probably on Military Intelligence that Europe May Sarah this thing has been picked up I think it was if I am not wrong it was Vikram sooth it was then as part of raw located in Srinagar who they have interacted with Jal Hoon was then the KO Commander to say that well the equipment so 2224 you had something on going on in Seattle Vikram suit chief of raw who was probably station officer okay he must have interacted


was probably station officer okay he must have interacted with John Hoon we have to and general who at that time Commander okay and all of this area used to come under him now you have 14 questions but those days it is to be one that is 15 core and those jurisdiction the entire area came in so when this was uh going on then he also went because if we were to launch because the preparation had already started so this General shipper and general Hoon say that we've got to do this now in this kind of an operation do you need um an okay from the political leadership to would the raksha mantri have been informed or is it need to know basis and they are not informed see at this point of time firstly I'm just a captain at that point right that's very important because I would not be preview to all what was going on at that point I am only preview because I am part as a mountaineer being part of it Associated and training people you know taking them up


it Associated and training people you know taking them up ensuring that they survive under such harsh conditions but yes uh Delhi was taken on board and that is where uh when you see Delhi gave a green signal that was Mrs Gandhi at that point of time that yes it could be done raksha mantri was Mr venkata now since Mrs Gandhi was had very good association with Mrs Gandhi primarily because of Sikkim okay okay when Sikkim became part of India Jal Hoon was then the advisor over there in to the and that is how Mrs Gandhi and general were clothed now when the okay came at this point type time Pakistan was wanting to launch operations according to them and what Musharraf says the Pro Commander wanted it the 1st of May because they failed to sustain themselves in 1983 on top of the glacier so he said let's do it in on the first of May much that Musharraf says that he was as part of the military operations ban and they had


as part of the military operations ban and they had suggested that it should have been March they wanted it much but unable to sustain their co-commander then General Khan said well it is better that we launched on the 1st of May and uh first of me being decided in January they had picked up this entire equipment from Europe so by Jan of 84 the equipment the mountain and Equipment has been picked up from Europe about a thousand sets by Pakistan obviously that alerted the Indian intelligence to buy so much of equipment had been picked up by Pakistan from there and that obviously then put us on this thing we didn't know what's going on in Pakistan because it's only the book which which Musharraf has written reviews because he was he himself said that I was in ammo and I was aware of what is going on at this point of time and then when Zion haq was being breathed so he said okay operation ababil to be launched on the 1st of May on the recommendations of the their


1st of May on the recommendations of the their Commander to say that which is very difficult so first May is what we will learn so much before uh operation make doth was put into play there was Operation by Pakistan to occupy siachen Glacier what we launched on first of May 1st 1584. that is the Pakistan part now for us we were told that we would launch on the 13th of April 1984 because uh then uh Brigadier Chandra was the sector Commander he said 13th is by Saki and it's a very good day of course you know eyebrows got everybody said uh sir 13th is supposed to be unlucky number 13. why do you want to launch it on the 13th is it is by Saki and it's one of the most holiest days and Pakistan also celebrates by saki we also celebrate the Saki and they couldn't have been a better New Year for us to launch our operation yeah because besaki is celebrated across both sides because on the India because


across both sides because on the India because it's a Harvest Festival absolutely and he realized that all of the equipment had been picked up and then uh I was ticked off in one of the presentations by Jal Hoon when John shebar asked me that can you launch the operations because you've been there in June July of 83 can you do so if we were to prepone it so I didn't know the date or anything like that so as a youngster and being asked by the Army obviously I couldn't have said no that was first and secondly assistance had gone there and had stayed there for so long I said by all means he said Remember the equipment is what you all wore in 1983 he said yes sir I told him positively same equipment we would be able to do so even during Summers it's it's a minus very it's you it's very cold it's minor did you and even today we see this lack of extreme winter clothing so what did you manage with in those


winter clothing so what did you manage with in those days for your polar bear Ibex and all these totally Indian equipment totally the same code Parker the same trouser with two inners inside and the shoes that yeah absolutely it was perfectly another I thought if I lived with all that clothing on top of their glasses I didn't know then obviously June July and April we got foreign because when we were launched in April and I must tell you the equipment of course didn't turn up till the 12th of April no no that was a big thing who had gone to buy the equipment and this is also coming from Europe yeah all of it was to come and it was down down is an equipment which is of feather and the down feathers are from birds which are there in Europe and probably relaxer birds make one coat because the feathers are so warm and that's what keeps you warm and the because of the down feather the jackets and the trousers are so light that you don't even


the trousers are so light that you don't even feel the weight of it so you know they had not reached and now Glacier and see for yourself what you had seen in 83 is there any change or you know do you see any marks of people walked over or something like that on the glacier so I was taken I was flown around the glacier I saw all of it absolutely Chopper by Chopper so absolutely no Footprints nothing whatsoever on the glacier it looked as uh pristine and pretty beautiful class as if nobody had touched it and everything flew over below flew over Seattle and all of it and got back so we were ready now clear weather absolutely perfect and I was also happy 13th April will launch and everything would happen 12th April at around five o'clock in the evening in me uh eight those days now where we call it me 17s those days the helicopter a different version of me it's they brought this equipment all right these are your intents yeah they're all


all right these are your intents yeah they're all it's still freezing cold everything is in 10 days only with my uh Team my company Commander was Major Sandhu uh VRC of 1971 war and we were another two youngsters to go to uh sort of establish Camp one two three and also be uh Reserve petrol based platoon to us with Captain paramvir yadav has one platoon Commander uh lifted in gusaini as another pluton commander and the third was myself under a company Commander R.S who unfortunately passed away some time back and he was the other uh company Commander for ciala and social he was the company Commander to occupy and we were to occupy I was happy and then I was brought back and to be ready to launch on the 13th so 12th in the evening at five o'clock I find this uh equipment has landed now this equipment was in cartons so many cartons trousers shoes and socks you know uh King that is those fire eater so many things it


King that is those fire eater so many things it goggles you know the um So based on this thing and the command is also not very tall so if it's time for the common regiment the boys were same and some are here also had to be given the same equipment yeah so that so the equipment that came and segregated we always did jackets and trousers are not much of a problem the inner was not a problem socks the shoes was a big problem because the shoes looked almost identical with its left foot or the right foot it was a special alternating shoes oh they all look alike so anyway we found ourselves wear wearing those and you know ready and we found this next day morning early morning we got up at four o'clock and all set and then we found our five o'clock or 5 30 Calpers hello about seven eight helicopters you know coming to the base camp being flown by the Air Force pilots and they all came to the base camp to take us onto the


came to the base camp to take us onto the glacier so we wore that equipment and ready with me was my operator mandal or radio operator so every helicopter could only take two people and because pilot co-pilot did two of us like that so and we were told radio silence nobody will open the radio sets less pakistanis get to know that there is some activity taking place so the total radius Island if you have a self-contained for five days of course you have to be self-contained for five days after five days by the time you would have established ourselves on the glacier then of course so keeping that in mind and we launched ourselves and the bundle with me and there were two more boys in the other helicopter Ramesh I remember very well and prakash not both these boys were with me in 1983 also so I knew you know we had that understanding with each other so Ramesh and prakash in the helicopter and I was in the lead helicopter and that helicopter was keeping a watch


lead helicopter and that helicopter was keeping a watch on us and we were to land and as soon as we had to land the pilots had already taken Muna Ricky before so perfectly fine I thought a land and I was sitting comfortably suddenly on that internal radio set he told me uh Sanjay we can't land here he said no no you have to jump and I'll jump from the helicopter but I'm not too sure uh how the snow condition why couldn't he land because not sure about it they were not so sure it was the hard surface or it was a helicopter if it has to land the uh there are lots of crevices crevices are deep no huge thing and this loose snow makes it look plain it's only when you land you suddenly realize that you have landed on top of a crevice and the whole helicopter will sink totally it'll go be go inside the crevice so the pilot he was aware of it because he had flown he said yeah I'm sorry I


he had flown he said yeah I'm sorry I can't uh that I said I wish you had told me when we can't come for a cure if you can't land he said Lane how I feel that we can't land and we are about three kilometers short of Bella founder I suggest you jump I said okay I'll jump but I said look I bought one small with me I'll first throw that foreign to see whether the surface is hard if the surface is hot if that doesn't sink then even when I jump I will also won't you're not talking about para jumping now you're just talking about jumping straight jump you have to open the jump from 10 15 10 15 yeah they come down below but uh you know you have to just you could also fall in the crevice if it is I told him I said yeah let's first throw this to that uh that's your Russian which you're coming with you yeah and once you open it we'll throw it down and we'll see if it doesn't


throw it down and we'll see if it doesn't sink it stays on the surface that means it's quite hard and you hover out I'll jump you say perfectly fine but I saw it was on top it hadn't sunk perfectly fine I said ready ready jump jump and when I jump obviously the uh my radio operator mandal he couldn't jump because he had the radio set that was on his lap so I will reduce it like it so I jumped and I saw the whole thing I walked around a bit the helicopter after I jumped took off and I saw that is okay I gave a thumbs up I said no problems you can land okay so the other helicopter was also seeing this helicopter so it landed with Mandel and the other two who were with me they also landed and then the subsequent sorties started coming in from the base camp to reach Bella founder it would take us about 35 odd minutes for the helicopter to fly in you know the next 40 to come in because the


you know the next 40 to come in because the same helicopters have to go back the refuel if required take another two passengers come back and land so all this would take out an hour or so so for that duration your load on top of the glacier the first fuel you're not pitching your tents you're not sorting nothing so far we are just there okay waiting for the entire platoon we were 30 of us the height and the temperature the height uh at that is almost about 18 000 plus you took off uh from 11 500 about 11 11 000 increased 18 and a half thousand the height that we were founded about 18 500 ciala is about nineteen or thousand and similarly is the Indra coal over there so and the temperature would be a temperature at that point would be at minus 20. so our temperature is a minus 20. it was clearly you know and it looked very clear lovely blue sky and absolutely white all over it was perfect I mean I could have asked for a better


perfect I mean I could have asked for a better uh condition how many are you right now four four of us that's it that's it the first the first okay me and my radio operator and precaution so having done that and then the subsequent sorties were not the others so the subsequent salty and in about I found in about half an hour or so a bundle complaint of uh okay I'm having headache now this headache is very common in high altitude we call it the uh you know it could well be a part of Apple high altitude pulmonary sudden use you know you get disoriented you don't feel comfortable so it's a complete of headache and I said now you better sit down do nothing whatsoever and uh we'll mark the helipad and the helipad will be marked because we have seen the all other helicopters you know exactly where to come so that he he was not able to talk I said don't worry the next Chopper that comes will take you back no he's the only


that comes will take you back no he's the only single radio operator with me and what to be evacuated even though he had trained so hard at house uh all had even down below and he was there during polar bear he was not part of polar bear one or two but he was part of the subsequent training and the training was very tough since we were all part of it we trained them very very hard okay but instead to sustain and you know training at kardumblr itself to get across this area from lay if you go is 18 380 feet that's the pass you have to cross by driving to be able to get onto partapur so all this training at high altitude there was nothing that was left to chance every viewer all but Monday yeah for sick at the last minute no subsequent people start Gathering major Sandhu was the company command he bought the entire team and we all settled out so we were 30 now left 29 because one the inducted within an hour of our Landing over


the inducted within an hour of our Landing over there by about 11 30 the weather don't absolutely bad unbelievable what I saw the day previous to what else when I saw while I landed to what I was now seeing Sudden Change it turned blessed us you know wind speeds of over 100 kilometers nothing visible we couldn't see anybody I said oh God what's all this aren't you happy you have this equipment that you're wearing those what generally thank God hindsight I would say that you're absolutely right yeah terrible absolutely now the same Shoppers were to go back and take and troops land at ciala that mean major bahoganya's team was to land at ciala on the same day the 13th of April 1984. now this kind of weather conditions obviously no Chopper and nobody would come even we couldn't see each other and don't even two meters I could see anybody no was that bad oh God I said now some would were part of with me in 1983 were familiar to


part of with me in 1983 were familiar to this kind of a weather so we could sort of understand but the rest of them were seeing it for the first time young boys all of us were 21 22 23 year old youngsters on top of the glacier you were probably called Sandhu was the oldest as a company Commander you must have been about 35 or something like that yeah we were all young 24 25 and 21 22 year old youngsters surprised if it me so I said yeah I told them I said no which up tense these imported tents had come Arctic 10 pop tents in which about two to three people could stand and say first let's get into it and then we'll see what is to be done let's uh hold ourselves on ground 13th of April extremely bad weather 14th of April extremely bad weather terrible weather only clearing the snow because you know the snow is also it's not so heavily about eight odd feet of snow in one night only so we should not so


snow in one night only so we should not so from inside the boys are just you know hitting that uh cover so that the snow doesn't rest on it and it sort of drifts off and one boy will come out clear the snow and again enter the food and water sir Paras that also must be turning into ice oh extremely difficult to eat extremely difficult to eat but we had those fire Kings you know those fire Kings were from Switzerland small little uh this thing which would keep the tent warm the two main Arctic ten would just have this area that you have for this table maximum three people can sustain themselves in these three just lie down nothing else you can do so you have your rucksack you are there and nobody else is there so that's all and then you're eating those shakar Paras and you're eating the chocolates that are there with you because there's no way you can cook because in this kind of weather will you cook and how will you cook is extremely


will you cook and how will you cook is extremely difficult that little Fire King was enough to make it warm so every time you would attempt to go out to Bella founder people like we would sink up to waste deep snow well not able to walk even 100 yards and 200 times we will be back now 15th around 15th when uh we are attempting to go I heard come back come back shouting come back I said what happened but we found that Ramesh was no more died the in the night because of apple and froth in his mouth and uh poor thing you know I felt very bad because he was a very good buddy of mine and had been with me in 83 Etc so now the question aroused we call back halfway if we were to below we got back and now major Sanju said now what do we do here I said we have no option today is only the third day though we were told to have radio silence for five days and we are self-contained for five


for five days and we are self-contained for five days in one tenth there are three of us only the two officers are there in one ten otherwise the men are almost three in one ten and I said now we can't leave him inside the tent and the two boys to sleep with him it may you know inconvenient at the same time we can't leave him outside just because he's no more you can't leave him outside also that's the respect for the fallen soldier if it's snowing I said it's snowing so heavily will not be able to find out because you will not know where it is it's extremely difficult to find out I said so let's open the radio set and let's inform Ed and one boy no more so sure enough you know because of this bad weather radio silence there's enough kind of uh you know culture happening at the sector headquarters at the Army Headquarters that this TiVo 30 seems to be basic they are not they told you five days yeah five days but


not they told you five days yeah five days but but did tell us that look boy don't open the radio set for five days because and sure enough thank God these instructions were there because had those instructions not been there the pakistanis would have also because yeah they had planned for first of May so obviously anybody is wanting to come on top of the glacier on the first terminals although would already be sitting as kardu and kapalu maybe a fortnight before and 10 days before another they just can't launch and Musharraf himself said that it takes Indian seven days to occupy siachen Glacier it takes us one day because their road head was absolutely just the base of the sultural ridge line and they just had to walk up to occupy the glacier so that they were they could have got to the sultural region much faster than what it was for us so he said reduce it colonization sorry we have no option of character again it is better that we inform otherwise uh so we informed and uh


that we inform otherwise uh so we informed and uh you know by that cleared up and uh very nice of JAL Hoon he flew in in the helicopter and it dropped the national flag from the top onto us and a small little you know little bag there is a with the national flag in it and he said he told him by all you know indicating to him by a signal that this is what it is and he didn't lag but then he took off he knew that we could send a chopper to evacuate and take back remesh from there so Ramesh obviously by then the body had become extremely stiff how do you mentally deal with at that point of time you uh don't have anything you know you know that poor thing is no more and um but you don't let emotions come into play we have of course that you do feel bad that your body is no more Ramesh could have been the first casualty of mandal was the first one who didn't die but was


was the first one who didn't die but was evacuated because of HAPO and he was the first casualty of uh of operation on operation make tooth on top and his name is there in the war memorial this at India Gate then I went there I did see the name of last night Ramesh he was subsequently being uh you know given kirti chakra posthumas I'll tell you later how when I met him there and when this was he was evacuated and then we moved towards Bella found can you imagine I'm on top of beloved online just about to reach Bella founder which is about 18 500 feet so putting in context uh you're talking about uh we are talking about the first casualty of siachen Ramesh was that and uh now uh today when officers go or Javan school or even as journalists when we go we know how much acclimatization we have to do or for stage wise acclimatization 14 days seven days super high altitude and all those things now when you


super high altitude and all those things now when you people went in there were no scientific studies on effect of high altitude on what it could affects it could have on a human body how you should behave what you should do or was there some kind of basic study see we have enough inputs because if you recollect 1962 and since 62 also was fought in Eastern ladakh and uh decorated with so we all the induction into to high altitude is very very scientific as you rightly said acclimatization is a must so you have your seven days acclimatization 10 days acclimatization 14 days acclimatization depending upon the heights that you have to go in all this training that we are supposed to be doing because you can't there is a saying no you can't be a gamma in the land of llama so that's everything another one which I've heard you say uh you know that is the uh I always call it as the mantra for mountaineering you know roti that means you must have a meal in


know roti that means you must have a meal in your stomach you must have something to hold so that you are not swept up by the wind and this kind of a weather condition or don't step into a crevice by mistake because and child shorty because you should not get breathless because if your breathing is synchronized with your stepping then it's a great success but generally most casualties occur because you don't receive to realize it you know you're young and you feel all right it doesn't happen so they say don't be a gamma in the land of Allah so it's all these sayings and all have a lot of meaning behind it so we all undergo what we rightly said so if you all undergo proper acclimatization every entire study is there a whole lot of it there's no question even those days absolutely 100 and you but what happens you know seeing is believing it's only when you experience it first hand when you see that wind blowing at over 100 kilometers


you see that wind blowing at over 100 kilometers an hour on your face and when you only find yourself covered with snow all over and there's nothing but hitting you your hands aren't moving in nothing is you know then you realize all that studies are now coming to you being told because you own an experience when you are experiencing all of it you know you we told 10 times over that don't worry in an avalanche you can you know if an avalanche comes just see to yourself dig down and hold and seal and you know our way it is don't panic don't do the very easier said than done and you're in the crevice don't panic in the crevice you've gone 40 feet down Panic you don't know what's happening to you and everybody is trying to motivate you but you are losing your so it's easier said than done you know only a man who is experiencing you find so many of your friends have lost legs so many of them have lost limbs you


lost legs so many of them have lost limbs you know insomnia losing their health there's so many things that are happening so the man who experiences it he alone knows where the there are no leather shoe pinches sure no it's easier said so in this kind of what you said harming acclimatize and all of it we finished with 13th we finished with 14th and with 15. so before we reach 15 you talked about General Hoon giving you this bag yeah national flag I had to hoist it at Bellefonte I'll tell you very interesting story of this national flag also so that we hoisted and when we were on 15th you've hosted on on 16th 16th you've reached at the national flag okay so when we were hoisting the national flag over there just about reaching bilaf online I find a helicopter coming from the Pakistani Direction now that helicopter well like we have cheetahs they have llamas that aircraft is similar to what we had the Llama American problem yeah the


to what we had the Llama American problem yeah the small little chopper with a pilot and a co-pilot and two passengers is right right in front now obviously the helicopters have a limit to which you can fly you know you can fly maximum nineteen thousand twenty thousand feet after that it won't fly so I am as it is I'm standing at 18 500 so high hour really will be going he can't go to his extreme so he was right in front and so I saw the their Pilot's eye and my eye you know both are seeing each other now he saw that these integers are already on top of Bill of all they took a U-turn and went back so now we must have gone and told the look we were wanting to preempt India the Indians have already preempted us they're already sitting on top of Belafonte so this wasn't a satellite imagery or whatever there were no nothing like that he himself now how did he come that is also equally uh moment


how did he come that is also equally uh moment Ramesh passed away we had to open the radio set the moment we opened the radio set obviously they picked up the radio signals so when they picked up the radio signals these Indians are already somewhere here so he must have been sent to go and see the only way to induct enthusiasm from The Saltwater reliable of online so when he was wanting to cross Bell off only since you're already there now the next day the 17th of April when platoon which was to be inducted on top of siala because of the clear weather now they inducted and occupied ciala so the next day the same helicopters which had brought us to belafontla but could not take them to siala on the 13th and the 14th and the 15th and subsequently so they took now this platoon of major bhagana and landed at ciala and they occupied seala so operation make dude actually comes into fruition by between 13th and 16th 13th and say


by between 13th and 16th 13th and say 17th of April of April everybody now is occupied 1984. and at the same time simultaneously despite the bad weather we were establishing the camps along the glacier Camp one Camp two camp three Camp four Camp five Camp six so if you have to walk all these camps each campaign one day walk that's more than even Mount Everest Mount Everest required three Camp one Camp two and and the peak peek a scam 3 is assault straight assault on the uh Mount Everest one two three four five six and then again if you were to go on the Lola phone Glacier you have to go on the to go to Seattle there's a long you know stretch you know you have to walk establish one base camp and then walk up to Belafonte so all this that was happening now we had rightly so we had preempted the Pakistani the pakistani's initial of course they had wanted it to occupy in March but their core Commander is what Musharraf


March but their core Commander is what Musharraf says suggested to be occupied and on the 1st of May we occupied the siachen glacier on the 13th of April 1984. so that is how we found that all of this got occupied now talking about what you just referred to the national flag of uh so since you know dropped the national flag for us for putting out on the Bella founder we had put that flag over there then subsequently Mrs Gandhi as a prime minister had to be told that ciachen had been occupied and she wanted to come and see for herself also okay what is it like so as luck would have it the day she was to fly it was total white out May or something like that you know and uh not even yeah something May June around that time and uh so when she was flying around no much later because 23rd of June we had passed an attack of the Pakistani on the glacier and his same time when what was going on in this thing


same time when what was going on in this thing simultaneously Punjab also had the problems now Operation Blue Star in 84. yes and here Pakistan is launched an attack on the siachen on the 23rd of June 1984. and before that on the 27th of April the first firing took place around because we had occupied the passes the pakistanis were attempting and how I realized that now it's become a battlefield now not till the 27th and the first day now I saw a crew you know a white group I said I remember having seen a white crow in 1983 also once and I see another Crow you know I said if there's a crow that means this Crow is following somebody food he's following somebody he couldn't have seen our food because he's coming from the park side and this Crow is following somebody and sure enough the pakis were right in front of us at a place called Ali branza on the Lola phone on the Bella found Glacier we are on the Lola Fawn Glacier


Glacier we are on the Lola Fawn Glacier terminates at Bella fondla and the Bill of on Glacier runs along Ali branza on their side and they were sitting there with a lot of crops and everybody all seated and that's the first firing took place on the 27th of April but you're at a height they are low oh much lower okay they must have been at about 16. we must have been so strategically or in a better position see mountains whoever is occupying Heights is dominating and anybody who occupies Heights dominance is extremely difficult to dislodge him he can only be dislodged if he is found sleeping or is complexion otherwise very difficult to dislodge now when this had happened this national flag and when Mrs Gandhi subsequently was uh flown in and shared a whiteout conditions she didn't see anything he saw a national flag being flown in because of the saffron color and the green that was visible to her from this she said she couldn't see


visible to her from this she said she couldn't see anybody she said you were saying that there are troops over here I don't see anybody neither do I see anybody living over here and how could anybody be living in such condition but she saw some flag and she said I can spot a flag who's there so that's a post at belafontla and that is where we are he said excellent and whatever this he must have asked questions to the uh co-commander or the Army Commander was flying with her and everything ended the next day but she couldn't land no she could so that is why the first prime minister to land in siachen was Dr morning nobody came to see achen all those years even Mrs Gandhi's attempt was in June July again bad by the rule so no weather can turn bad I told you 13th April in the morning when we land perfectly clean Blue Sky fantastic and within us everything turned topsy-turvy so you can't and then she came it was obviously


you can't and then she came it was obviously if the prime minister is being flown in the weather clearance did you know that she is flying nobody would nobody would nobody would have ruled it's only when you venture into the glacier that you realize no but did you know that the Prime Minister would like no he didn't know and sir when you talk about 27th first firing taking place by that time what was your uh how many of us were there on the see we were 13 any case and then subsequently we were built at all 50 50. we became 50 because others came you know there were lots of people uh as key Troopers came in so you're a young man at that stage do you realize the significance or do you just think it's another believe me you know today when I look back I feel the people after you are asking me after 39 years at that point of time nothing we were enjoying every bit of it we were very lucky we thought that we were