we have to differentiate between the terrorists and the people of Kashmir the people of Kashmir are part of India the terrorists come from Pakistan they were motor shells and articles landing on the head if they attempted infiltration from any area you have to tell me that okay they have tried to do something they have raided our post but we have gone across and already raided a post or did something when they come to meet you on the LC the small flag meeting you are the ones putting on helmets in bpj while they are in normal caps it should be the other way around after eight months he sent me a photograph where the pakis were with bpj and helmets and our people were in that one fine day after the parliament was attacked we were mobilized and here was my whole Battalion we were already geared up ready to go I got into a bonnet of a Jeep and spoke to all women I said the nation needs us the morale of the whole Battalion was much higher


the morale of the whole Battalion was much higher much different I was feeling better since 62 on the line of actual control and except one or two orders incidents in 67 or very recently in galwan we have not allowed violence to go beyond a point in America the Open Sky policy came around in late 90s people like Elon Musk were private players started getting into the space domain in India also the government realized that we also should have an opportunity for our private thanks to the Army it has been a dream run I could do everything possible which any Soldier would aspired welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is Lieutenant General Anil Kumar Bhatt who retired as military Secretary of the Indian army in 2020. he has had a 40-year career in the forces where he held major appointments including that of the dgmo during the doklum crisis against China with General bipin rawat as his chief he also served as the chinar corps Commander from 2018


served as the chinar corps Commander from 2018 when the Indian army carried out extensive major operations against terrorist leadership in Kashmir Valley and eliminated major groups there he served three times in Jammu and Kashmir and has held several important posts including that of commander of the 21st Mountain division he's also the first director general of the Indian space Association thank you very much for coming on the podcast uh uh General but we are very honored that you've come here my colleague Ajit Dubai is here he handles defense and as you would know Ajit is has got a very bad throat which is a Delhi phenomenon I think but in spite of that he was he's going to join me ma'am I got it on an Air Force tarmac in jodhpur so okay not eating what he's trying to say that it's uh but you know he'll join me because you know he has more domain experience and things and uh we will ask you about the current hat that you wear which is the


about the current hat that you wear which is the space program but before that we want to talk about your years in the Army and uh as uh you know because the curiosity is of course uh about that uh you were the chinar core commander in 2018 so when a large number of terrorists were neutralized in the valley could you tell us a little bit about those years uh well amongst my entire career if I look at some look back and look at something which was like a dream that was my tenure as a chinarco command and like I would like to share with you that every morning when I would get up get dressed up and just before I left to meet the forward trips I would close my eyes and thank God and you know what I would say that this life should continue forever that you are there where the whole nation is looking up to you to perform you lead the best men of the Indian army and whatever you do will help this nation to become stronger and it was always


this nation to become stronger and it was always every day it would make me feel that I am in the ultimate job and I wish that I would have continued like that forever right so what happened in 2018 sir well how is it different from earlier years because of this these operations that you undertook now I'll start with the background you know militancy or what we call CI operations in Kashmir have been waxing and waning and by 2008 we had got a grasp of it then started the New Movement where people were getting involved more civilians were being killed and it was something like intifida they were created and that peaked in 216 when a young boy called burhanwani was killed there was the first social media terrorist a kind of anger he could create amongst the Normal public amongst the youth they brought Kashmir to a standstill it was a new kind of movement where it was people coming out there was Stone belting there were large crowds when a civilian or a


there were large crowds when a civilian or a terrorist was killed and this was all being organized it was more to attract the world opinion the world media and get a feeling that everyone in Kashmir does not want to be part of India and added to that in the same year if you know was when the incident happened in Udi where there was a attack on a new Battalion which was coming in and we lost a large number of troops of course we reacted to it and that was the first time the Indian army went across the line of control and we sent a message to Pakistan but from then on when I went and took over to me was to now take back that take back the narrative from the terrorists from the separatists for that what I identified what all I have to do firstly is convince my own men that they are doing the best job and they are broad shoulders to hold their hand and for that every day I was out communicating with my men with


every day I was out communicating with my men with my young officers assuring them and also telling them what was more important that we have to differentiate between the terrorists and the people of Kashmir the people of Kashmir are part of India the terrorists come from Pakistan or are elements who do not believe in what is India and they the only thing for them is the gun they have to be eliminated and one one thing more to me it was Carol killing of terrorists was not a parameter that brought success it's something else that because I did not put that pressure on my command the largest number of terrorists were killed in that decade from 2008 till today that year has been the last largest number of neutralizations now one was this thing the other was what was the numbers uh it was around 274. and the other thing which happened with along with that was I was able to get all the security forces together and that is an experience so that is what I had learned when with


experience so that is what I had learned when with my previous experiences in the valley where differences between police crpf intelligence we would lose out and here my tenure even in the Northeast as a core commander and now in the valley and one of the persons I learned this all this was from General we kissing he was my GOC when I was in the valley and he he really laid down a lot of importance to inter-services cooperation so this is what I ensured and by two months of my tenure we were all like a Band of Brothers the IB Chief there the raw Chief there the DG DGP of police we were all working together and that Synergy produced its strength produced Effectiveness in all domains I'm going to come to social media and taking back the narrative later but uh you know um you said that you didn't put forward this uh goal to your men that number so many I want killed but it just happened because of various reasons that you say but what


because of various reasons that you say but what was the brief given to you when you started there well the brief to me of course there was no written brief but what I understood it and I I had an advantage I was going down going there after being the director general of military operations I knew the chief's mind clearly and what was most important is to bring the level of wireless control it and your Chief was yes okay and there was a clarity that we have to use the gun violence only against terrorists and we have to differentiate we have to win over The Narrative of Kashmir win over the people of Kashmir and that has been an ongoing effort and I'm so happy that we could achieve and create conditions that in the next year after I left the government was confident enough to remove 370. article 3 and 170 which has changed the narrative in Krishna right but before that happened uh it said that just because of this very strong army action against uh against terrorists


this very strong army action against uh against terrorists Pakistan you know probably decided that some big incident has to be done because otherwise the Army will continue and it's said that the purvama attack was a result of the successes that the Indian army got in 2018. so just before I uh hand over to you I for our viewers listeners who don't know about the details of this the the foreign audience or Indians living abroad just a brief uh explainer that this was the pulvama attack was on February 14 2019 where a vehicle-born suicide bomber attacked a convoy of vehicles on the Jammu Srinagar National Highway in pulbama 40 crpf soldiers died in that attack and one kashmiri who was the perpetrator right sir so can you tell us about that that pulwama attack firstly your assessment and I agree with you that because we were uh the violence levels were under control we had put all terrorist organizations on the back fort the separatists on the back foot i


back fort the separatists on the back foot i i as a core Commander anticipated there would be some reaction and the two vulnerabilities with the military forces have in a place like Kashmir one is the IDS that is uh explosive devices which can be used on highways and here also I will tell you the challenge there was to bring back normalcy let people move freely and I'll give you example say 10 years back a convoy moving on the highway from banihal to Srinagar everything was everything was stopped stand still for those two three hours slowly allowed people to move along with us and this cost of normalcy this cost of Peace was that the suicide attack took place it was because we were allowing the people of Kashmir to have a more peaceful life but yes that is the cost one has to have and my fears were too one was ID or other was an attack on some headquarter hmm and here I would tell you about there was a Jai Shri Muhammad terrorist sent a few


a Jai Shri Muhammad terrorist sent a few months earlier to attack the Srinagar base and there was an announcement that this is going to happen we traced who that person was he was in the thrall Valley and he had told he had he had a team with him whom he had instructed that they have to attack Srinagar and if they don't do it he himself will come he was a senior Commander we found him and eliminated him like a rat we were doing it all over for IDs also it was there but yes one odd societal it is we have to succeed 40 times it is one failure which makes a difference where we lost so many people yeah was there any failure in Sops in that I mean there will be inquiries there will be new Sops which have probably been laid after that but uh what went wrong sir 40 lives was a very high price to pay uh you know maybe at that time and I'd of course left so I would you had left only


of course left so I would you had left only five five six days back uh about three weeks back three weeks back what was uh the thing is maybe what I felt was maybe too many of a very large number of troops were moved together there was snow the banihal had been closed for some time there was pressure in your mood that troops have to move in and that could have been maybe planned in a more logical manner that such a large vulnerability would have not been there and do you think that uh it's also Intel information which the other side which the pakistanis had that there is a change of guard that a new co-commander is coming in that would have not made the difference because the person who replaced me both may be better James Dylan who we had yeah there was total continuity between him and me and what we thought of how operations had to be done how the whole story had to be carried forward and uh that would not have been the reason it was they found that vulnerability


been the reason it was they found that vulnerability that day they must have been carrying out the Reiki for some time and that was the day they found that there was a very large number moving and because there was snow because uh all around and this large number would they would have come to know maybe from Jammu itself and they would have moved a little guard was down maybe yes every day when the Convoy is moved and I that is my my memory goes back to when I was even a colonel GS that was something like a bright coming in we were very cautious we used to have our guards on all along but like I said free movement allowing the kashmiri people also to move along when the Convoy is moving that was the cost of that as you said prior to moving into the valley as a general core Commander you served as the Director General military operations now it was during that tenure uh Jal rawat had taken over as the chief of Army staff he was very aggressive on


the chief of Army staff he was very aggressive on this front and recently the CDs also said that they took the two you people took the war to the enemy yeah how was it what was the thinking at that time sir and how how did you achieve it now I would give you an example previously if there were infiltrations which took place into Kashmir Valley the troops on the LC used to respond we used to take counter measures do anti-in filtration acts if they came inside we Chase we've got after them the IDS were put on our side now we decided there is the another on the across the line of control is sitting Pakistan which is troubling us but the troops their troops are not paying for it so the aim was to put a cost into the actions the cost was if they helped for infiltration we did actions we use artillery we use direct weapons so all along the LC was activated the outcome of that was that the Pakistani troops who were just bystanders


that the Pakistani troops who were just bystanders now were paying for the actions and this Resolute action for a long time has had its results support for infiltration in all by local commanders definitely reduced and they're like like was this your personal observation that they are having a good time or was it feedback from the ground troops or whose idea was it that pakistanis were having we knew that uh in the whole CI operations which were happening in the valley or even in the area of rajouri the Pakistani troops would not get affected by it they would assist these infiltrators to get through and how would they assessor we know we know how they assist but for our listeners how would they assist if you could explain what what what actually you did Sir uh firstly they would provide a base from where they could take off and infiltrate give them information where are the gaps across where our ambushes and other things have been put and thirdly at times carry out a exchange of fire to


thirdly at times carry out a exchange of fire to distract our troops so that these people could infiltrate this was a modus operandi which has been there for a large number of years but now here there was a cost there were motor shells and articles landing on the head if they attempted infiltration from any area so did you like once you took over General rawat came in the team now you decided that if you fire a bullet at us to support a terrorist we will pay it back in RT shells and heavy fire because I remember you people had uh you people had put the turrets of the old Vision tanks if you could tell us about that sir this was basically to increase the potency of the direct fire so the the caliber is slightly higher of these turrets the weapons in which are there it provides your protection which weapon was it basically we went into the caliber which was slightly higher 2.50 at time and use some of the nte aircraft guns which are there on


some of the nte aircraft guns which are there on the tank and all which we used for direct firing because it gave us better range and it gave us better Effectiveness not that this has not happened before that's what I wanted to know is it a psychological pressure also by doing that yeah not that it had not happened before or military commanders had not done it before but now there was a direction from the highest Authority that we have to be more punitive in our actions against Pakistan inflict inflict a total cost in the Pakistan Army does that help in the moral do you think of the forces firstly uh it helps the morale of our troops definitely but more importantly the other side the enemy now is more cautious to carry out any activities which are inimical to us and so he has to pay a cost for it I've been visiting the LC for a long time so like 20 years and even before that TV we used to see our troops wearing BP jackets and all


to see our troops wearing BP jackets and all uh did this punitive action change the behavior of the Pakistani no I I'll tell you further how it happened and of course I am not the only one who did it when I went to Srinagar and I would go to my troops on the forward area on the line of control and OD had happened a few years back my directions to my commanding officers to my Brigade commanders was that you any such action would not be acceptable to me and if it happens your reaction should happen before you report you have to tell me that okay they have tried to do something they have rated a post but we have gone across and already rated a post or did something this is your uh these were your orders to troops to uh uh this is when they came in sent terrorists and killed our people on the LLC your orders were that if they try it again you will carry out an action against them and then report to me yes


an action against them and then report to me yes this was my uh my direction was you will not look back for orders you will your reaction at the local level will take place and you will inform me after that now what happened because of that because my ghatak platoons my special forces were carrying out Ricky all along the LC it created an automatic question across combined with us carrying out artifier direct fire what happened was and this is uh I one of the shows on the LC I told him well when they come to meet you on the LC a small flag meeting you are the ones putting on helmets in bpj while they are in normal caps it should be the other way around and sure enough after eight months after eight months he sent me a photograph where the pakis were with bpga and helmets and our people were in ads it's a psychological game it's a game that's right so a couple of questions before that you mentioned ghatak platoon some of us know it who've covered


ghatak platoon some of us know it who've covered what is a ghatak platoon it sounds very sexy SF sir how do they operate what were they wrecking for what were they looking for which you talk now the difference the security Special Forces which are there they quite a bit previously we would use them inside the valley who carry out surgical operations there are troops who are better trained they're better armed and they as a team they carry out very good operations and for many years they were carrying out operations inside and Tetris operations but some time back and it was much before my tenure during General hooda's time that the rakis for strategic targets across started getting taken place so the SF today was now focusing on targets across the line of control if and when required now that is at the level of core and command but at the level of the Battalion Commander his special forces it is the best 20 to 30 men well trained highly motivated who are able to carry out operations of equal grade


who are able to carry out operations of equal grade like the security forces they caliber their motivation and even today their weapons are of a category that they can carry out small Surgical and effective operations and this is each Battalion has it even on the LCS sometimes battalions create two of these units now way back they were called Commandos it was called a Commando platoon of infantry battalion this name ghatak was given by late General Joshi and he said they should be called differently and they should be called ghataks and that is how this and ghatak is one who who inflicts casualty yeah so what is the mental makeup of somebody who works in a Gothic platoon like when you meet a person uh who's from the from that group how does what is the mental makeup of that person he knows that he may not come back from a from an operation from a task given to him he may not come back alive right what is the mental makeup uh they are like they are the


the mental makeup uh they are like they are the Gladiators of a CO they are they are pampered they are even allowed to put in a special dress they are only focusing they're they're the lead boys at many times people say no it's only creating a few experts in the whole Battalion or the whole regiment should be equally good but to have such a team motivates many others to reach that levels reach that level of caliber military capability and all that and of course the cost is that if required they are the first ones who will give the life but that apart it is not in an infantry battalion I would expect everyone to be about them right so did you uh at any point of time sir send men across which if you can't say I will understand but when you send men on these tasks and you know that they may not come back what does it feel oh you know this is one of the most for senior commander and especially when you receive you're much closer


commander and especially when you receive you're much closer but when you're a core Commander maybe you are at a distance but every man and if at all he goes the harm way if he goes for a risk you have sleepless nights it is like your own son your own child going across so this this is one of the most difficult thing for any commander I would not specify that did I send troops across or not and all but I would only give you an example that there was a Gurkha Battalion in mayor and one day while petrolink was being carried out one of our Jesus was it by a sniper by a team which had come very close to the line of control he got a bullet and later he succumbed to his injuries in the next five hours there was a blast in a post in Pakistan where six people died I won't get into the details how it happened and of course I did not send any troops across but we did it so it is


troops across but we did it so it is not only doing it physically with your troops there are proxies there are many other methods to handle the enemy on the line of control The Taking of badla for a loss of life of your man that is extremely important isn't it oh yes especially for the troops on the ground because it is if you hit me I have to hit you twice if not 10 times and for this you get an okay from from the chief from the political establishment or you don't wait for that uh you know you you have a sense of what your Chief wants what the political establishment wants and this is one thing that when I went as a core Commander I knew my military hierarchy and my political hierarchy will hold my hand for any action I as a core Commander decided that is one thing there were no orders to be given it was a sense and I knew what my nation and my Army wanted this was when you went in as core Commander this is


was when you went in as core Commander this is not your first tenure yeah you have uh you also commanded your Battalion there uh can you tell us like uh we have heard uh you gave a very uh motivational speech standing on a bonnet of a Jeep I know commanding especially and that to win action environment in place like Kashmir uh like um I can imagine like I've I talked to a lot of young officers everybody says that when you go you give the motivational speech you feel like a Napoleon Bonaparte kind of a feeling that's uh so please share your experience with us the story is a little different this happened when I was in the planes I was in a peace station in Ranchi but before that you know for any Soldier for anyone who goes to the military despite everything the ultimate would be that he goes to war and he fights for ignition and if necessary gives the Supreme sacrifice when I was a CEO I nearly got it and


when I was a CEO I nearly got it and that was because Opera Karam happened and one fine day after the parliament was attacked we were mobilized and we knew we would be going to war in three to four days from Ranchi we had moved to the Border in Rajasthan and in the next 24 to 48 hours we were ready to go across and here was my whole Battalion we were already geared up ready to go and I felt okay and maybe this is the last time I'll meet them together before we go in and we go across so I wanted to talk to all my men and that is the time I got into a bonnet of a Jeep and spoke to all my men I said the nation needs us we are here now today to do what every Soldier would want to do and I talked to them for 15 to 20 minutes and yes the morale of the whole Battalion was much higher much different I was feeling better so that is the incident which my young


feeling better so that is the incident which my young officers always remember also is known for those inspirational speeches that he used to give yeah of course he was on a much higher pedestal than a higher category 71 War at that time it said that his speech is also so in paragraph when we nearly went to war it it was those feelings and just before you get into the ring and I thought it was very important that I could communicate with each and every man of mine and it happened we got together it was a sand dune to raise myself that everybody could see me I used the Jeep and got into the Bonnet and then you also took them to I took them to the URI to the line of control and any any in incidents there which we would like to well of course like you know on the uh LC the basic is the psychological game especially when a new Battalion comes in the other side wants to put them down morally by causing casualties by firing by


down morally by causing casualties by firing by doing other things and that was the most formative time of a unit and my unit did pretty well there and even in a few months we had exchange of fires and all which we effectively had so when uh you know when casualties occur in their ranks uh the first thing they would tell the terrorists when I'm talking about the soldiers in the Pakistan Army when there are casualties there they would probably give uh the directive to to their foot soldiers the terrorists who they've infiltrated that they should inflict casualties among civilians right and then comes this thing how how do you manage that so uh once you have said you know because basically chaos and confusion and fear should be generated you once said that and I'll quote you the Army will abide by its rule that's the Indian army will abide by its rule not to go after terrorist families or non-armed civilians so there are many who say that you know these are conventional


are many who say that you know these are conventional um tactics should I use that word that is used by the Army whereas the terrorists on the ground are not using that uh you know that is what differentiates terrorists and people in uniform who represent a nation and especially as the Indian army where we are the Army People's Army and People's Army mean as the people of kashmirals and to reduce to cut off this cycle of violence that more terrorists are not produced locally that the people of Kashmir get convinced that this Army is also to protect them we have to be different to the than the terrorists so at times even people uh terrorists from a family does not mean we have to Target the whole family we shouldn't and we did it and what it helped was that the next Sun did not become a divorce there were many whom we could win over and in fact as you know even the quants were extra risked who the Indian army had won over and who became a


Indian army had won over and who became a small strong weapon for us so it is very very important that any army especially in in CI operations and that is where success is that we win the hearts and Minds continuing on Kashmir issue prior to core Commander you handled Kashmir very well as dgmo now the dgmo also gets to talk to his Pakistani counterpart now when you took the war to the enemy I remember they they were requesting very frequently for talks on Tuesday so uh what did they tell you okay what was the major you know their narrative has been that the Pakistan Army is in no way involved in supporting the terrorists that lie would be repeated by them and even when the we started more Resolute actions more artifier more Resolute actions by us uh always there was a cry that we should reduce it we should reduce this exchange of fire because that that gave me an indication that the policy we had decided for more Resolute action was paying and uh on ground their


Resolute action was paying and uh on ground their local commanders what they also request for flag meetings local levels and even in meetings which took place at the Brigade Commander level like at punch and other places so we record a podcast just a week or so after this gruesome killing that had happened in Jammu where Hindus were targeted now the villagers in that place they are saying army camp for now now you know the the thing is that you one can understand you know that [Music] but is that a solution that her Village May Army Campo that's not feasible also so how is one supposed to do this firstly I'll uh just a little bit I'll try to tell you and you are well aware of that all these areas there is a population which is a mix of Hindus and Muslims as you go north maybe they are more Muslims as you come towards Jammu they are more Hindus and these are small pockets of small villages four or five houses spread


pockets of small villages four or five houses spread over maybe a walk of two hours three hours six hours a very difficult area and easily a terrorist can hit somewhere because we cannot be everywhere so one of the schemes which have we've been running for a long time is the VDC Village defense committees and more importantly arming these local ex-servicemen maybe ex policemen or some youth from the local Village and I have found this to be very effective I remember 60 year old six gentlemen proudly I always used to call these vdcs when I was a brigade commander in that area coming with his weapon he had been awarded a center medal because he had held back four terrorists for nearly four to five hours and even killed one and he had served in the armed forces only for five years okay now there are challenges there because the weapon we give them is not an AK previously it was a three not three and the Terrace has a weapon which is more advanced I think the


has a weapon which is more advanced I think the Armed Forces locally are looking at it giving them better weapons training them and preparing them it is very important and to effectively control this area especially razori punch Jammu it would be most important to make these vdcs more strong spread them out this culture and these people will be able to and yes they would have to be anchor posts with army can react but like like I'm telling you maybe at times the time when by the time the Army reacts it will take a little time do you think that Pakistan is you know you you've done more than one tenure in Jammu Kashmir you know that these are waves uh that happen you know there's the ebbing and things that happen do you think that Pakistan is on the verge of creating yet another uh you know uh a rise in militancy in Jammu Kashmir using local locals in this that effort would go on they have always been trying this but I I don't know I do not know


this but I I don't know I do not know do not know the details as to who did this firing but I'm sure there would be terrorists from across and not locals locals by and large whatever Community they belong to I'm talking about the pancharaja sector are more looking for peace or they are convinced by the Indian narrative okay so now that we have uh talked about Jammu Kashmir let me uh turn your attention to the Eastern sector you were director General military operations during the doklum crisis so could you tell us what happened then okay uh to start with what exactly happened on 16th to 18th June when we decided 2017 now we're talking about yeah 270 2017 was when her party of Chinese troops as well as construction workers came to a point which was 200 meters from dokala which is a pass and they wanted to extend that road which was there up till there and take it to a Ridgeline which was called zamfiri just one and a


which was called zamfiri just one and a half to two kilometers they had to cross one Nala called torsanala and thereafter go there and the implications was that if they had made that route to that point zamferi Ridge which asparas belongs and today also we believe is bhutanese it would they would have a peek into our Siliguri Valley entire Siliguri Corridor the chickens will be seen from there which was 25 to 30 kilometers a major strategic vulnerability would have been created so there was a choice to stop them there stop that road there or Let It Go now the technicality which they claimed and it was a question which was there that they and we also agree to one thing is that that land where they were wanting to make that road belong to Bhutan so going across into another country to stop the third country was a major challenge to take the decision but that red line was clearly understood by me as a dgmo by my chief General rawat who became the


dgmo by my chief General rawat who became the CDs and even by the government and we decided on that day to go across and stop them and Sir like most of the people don't know this fact that docala is a docala is in Bhutan now you're talking about Plateau or the doklam plateau is now called so how far were we from there when we uh actually positioned when we saw the Chinese trying to build a road uh on in this area uh just 200 meters 200 to 300 meters okay and we were uh on Indian soil yeah we were on Indian soil uh fortunately in Sikkim compared to all other places there's a distinct Ridge line okay which forms which is like a boundary it is more defined than in many other places like we have between India and China it is not very clearly defined but here it is defined better okay but the question was this land which was there did it belong to Bhutan or China China claimed it was this Bhutan claimed it


China China claimed it was this Bhutan claimed it was this and it was basically an issue of the triunction between the three countries we claim it is at batangla while they claimed it it was a camachan it made a difference of eight to ten kilometers deeper okay and that was the area which is called the dolam plant and where it ends towards India or where it overlooks the Siliguri Corridor is called the zamferi rich so at what point of time did we decide that we are going to move uh the I think that what bulldozers the Cathay would land uh universe and it wasn't those 24 to 48 hours it decided okay uh I'll just give you a brief background to it fortunately when I took over as a director general of military operations in November 2016. and uh General rawat was the white chief that time there was a delegation which came from Pakistan from sorry China from the pla to here to India and fortunately we had one day interaction with them they came and


we had one day interaction with them they came and met the white Chief they met me as a dgmo and in that interaction I could meet the first theater commander of pla of China his name was and he stayed till June 2020 and there were the the officers from the Tibetan military region the xinjiangular tourism it gave me a talking to them though through an interpreter did give me a sense of who they were and in the world they talk of course we talk to many things and how to keep the Lac peaceful and all others somehow maybe I got a sixth sense that they could create some trouble some time this year hmm in in somewhere on their line I was not very sure where but it was some somewhere that sure I thought they will they will test us they will probe us and this I think was the opinion of the G false so uh on June 16th is much later the action started earlier where there's a place called the plateau or there's a finger area


place called the plateau or there's a finger area we call it in Sikkim only where they try to do unnecessary showing of forts even Vehicles they try to take it from our side of the perception of the line of control which was very well defined they wanted to come on a track which was on site there was banging of vehicles and it started with small Vehicles banging with each other and to come to handle the Chinese we send a little bigger one which when they banged into it was their vehicle which is good it just sounds so it sounds like a fight in you know delhi's suburbs so it is not a war but it is a psychological game it is okay and these psychological games are very important because there's no firing sir explain this thing the thing is there is oh and if you see the lse has been peaceful for so many years is that over the years both sides have defined rules of the engagement engagement how when troops meet what will they do that we will


when troops meet what will they do that we will not use Firearms uh how will situations be handled now they at times cross over even a physical hitting each other's vehicle or getting into a physical thing like it happened in yangte is best avoided right but it does happen and it is very important to test each other's results and to keep the nerves right because it when General naravna was here he explained that when the troops are that they are carrying firearms and it requires a great deal of restraint uh that uh not to use that firearm and keep the spirit and letter of that treaty Alive by not using that firearm despite provocation and like if you see for so many years we have been since 62 on the line of actual control and except one or two orders incidents in 67 or very recently in galwan we have not allowed violence to go beyond a point right so let's get Back Sir so what happened that day then 48 hours now firstly so whenever Summers


day then 48 hours now firstly so whenever Summers happened and that has been happening for a few years we we had started putting troops for actualized troops troops who could go operate in high altitude in all our sensitive areas beat many other areas so we had adequate troops available to react to face a contingency that was a backup now when the these doses came and these people Construction Company people came on 16th the challenge was if he pushes his Dozer how is the man going to stop it without firing these are pla doses okay either he has to fire it's not private or anything it's their Fajr yes they're construction companies okay like like our border road water roads something but with border troops okay so it was okay to tell them to stop not to move the loser forward but if he physically tries to use the Dozer and tries to move and do which they tried they started clearing the murder or something we had to stop them physically fortunately border road organizations dozers were


stop them physically fortunately border road organizations dozers were on this side so the first so to say troops which went across they also took these dose so we had forts on forts okay to at least Stop Those roses that is how we allowed these two doses to come and if you go to the website or anywhere you will see that Chinese picture of it they have taken out showing that Indian big vehicles across on this side so because we had it there and then rawat and myself we decided we might have valued so it's a crossover on the boundary you are doing at this stage yes it was 200 meters across okay but but it was as per user right so is that viewed as a proactive aggressive measure done by India you know for us it was very clearly defined that we do not allow them to cross the torsanala which would have led them to the zamferi Ridge and created a vulnerability for us that was our red line hmm and we ensured that that red


red line hmm and we ensured that that red line is not crossed when you did it the Chinese also reacted in a very aggressive manner they put in their missile systems they even today we see a lot of satellite pictures showing a huge Chinese Camp along that area so what did they do when you stopped them from moving ahead firstly they brought additional troops there there was a buildup of troops at the point of contact and other than that they try to activate the whole area of Sikkim they brought in more forces closer to into the chumbi valley Edge that is there to your dong to other areas they brought in regiments of Tanks which were put much more closer to the line of actual control they put in missile they put in and they activated their airfields in the closer depth it was complete show of force and what did we do oh yes we also we we built up our forces and we were also prepared for any kind of contingency so can we today say that now


of contingency so can we today say that now we also have a military camp in that area or we have built around on the bhutanese territory to just protect our interest no we are not across on these territory okay but because we her in second we have an advantage is that we are on the ridge line okay and even dolam is lower than where we are at local okay we have an advantage the place where they build up when people say that okay they have built up later it is an area which is claimed by Bhutan and China both okay it is not Indian there okay our line Lac is very clearly defined in Sikkim and we hold and have bunkers on it sir you have dealt with the Chinese as dgmo now uh every few years the Chinese keep changing their goal post they say when you deal with them at such a high level does it surprise you that a country which claims to be a superpower economically militarily is behaving in such a petty manner that


is behaving in such a petty manner that is trying to encroach upon Indian or bhutanese or everybody else's land inch by inch the thing is on the line of actual control they the aim is to test the resolve test what we will allow them to do and keep the Lac active and it is as it is becoming more powerful both economically and it is growing up it wants to exert on its peripheries and of course we know geopolitically that in Asia if there is a rival of course internationally it is USA initiative there is some country which has not got into the Chinese bandwagon it is India uh like uh when you say we have not got into the Chinese bandwagon right next uh on the Western Front this uh this Pakistan which has seated them land lot of areas in northern areas and now they are connected uh over uh uh through the land Waterway they've built up CPAC also yeah so and I guess if I remember correctly a lot of activity was happening in this


correctly a lot of activity was happening in this area also when you were the dgmo what actually were the doing sir at that time what has happened is you know the cpec which is a land axis which China would now have through Tibet and through Pakistan other than that it is something like it is the new colonization of Pakistan vagina as I see it Pakistan has is giving away its sovereignty for money is the Pakistan Army basically yes because the richest people there are from the Pakistan Army that everybody talks about to what extent have they sold their country to the Chinese you can see and you can make out at all properties along the CPAC who has been the people who have involved in the contracts and allowing a Sovereign Nation allowing your land to be given to another Nation it is what can be more now the pakistanis don't have any right on the roads built by the Chinese the uh most of it is they have conceded much more than what a Sovereign Nation would so


much more than what a Sovereign Nation would so pakistanis can't even open a Dhaba alongside yes Dhaba entire shops taken okay okay so we were talking when you were talking about Kashmir you spoke about uh taking back the narrative you know so there is this whole thing about a narrative being built and has been built not just new thing when it comes to two front War when it comes to China now that taking back the narrative that you know this that we lose the narrative at times that you know when it comes like for example if you remember during the Stone pelting episodes you know that then that narrative was taken over now comes the China narrative so this whole thing internationally also nobody gives us credit that we stood our ground against a nation which is like several times the size of India and we're the only ones who have stood up against the bully tactics of China no other country in Asia has stood up the way we have but that is not not even


the way we have but that is not not even our own media gives us credit or gives the nation uh credit for standing up so there's this political narrative also then there's an international narrative also so how important is it for the Army at times these narratives you know as far as China goes uh it is very important that we as a nation and I think the government at least we have to know that it is a rival which is growing hmm and of course in diplomacy all roads are the best you have to cooperate you have to talk you have to collaborate as a military man I would say it should be done from a position of strength we have to it is very important we as India we have to com continue building a past strength because it is strength by making the infrastructure by making better weaponization that China knows that if it does any action against India the cost would be very high the best way to prevent a war with the strong rival is put a cost on


war with the strong rival is put a cost on him and the cost can only be put if we are strong of course for everything to happen the most important thing is that as the economy grows there will be more money for a security right so you also spoke about 2016 where you met with the Chinese delegation and you got this sense it's not just conversations I'm sure your experience over the years you could you could make out the nuances when you meet uh you know your the counterparts so you get this now what once you go back uh what happens do you tell the political leadership does the uh do the diplomats does the Ambassador do you brief them also that you get this sense how does the back room talks happen then so uh I should share with you and of course I remember ajith had done a story on that those 74 days of doklam crisis was the what's the most challenging for me most sleepless nights but professionally most satisfying as I look back


but professionally most satisfying as I look back nearly every day the team the back room team was meeting talking and discussing and who all did it have it had it was led by the NSA it had the foreign secretary now the foreign minister they had the IB Chief it had The Rao Chief uh raw Chief and myself and the JS who was handling China and at times whenever the Ambassador Mr gokhile from China was flying in a number of times to brief us so where does this now this is the deli this was a team meeting in Delhi okay and nearly meeting every second day getting all around 360 degree outputs and also working out what would be a response this is almost a war room yes uh informal one but yes so even though we are not in a state of War we are seeing an aggression we're talking about 2017 right now uh I'm using a present tense because I'm getting getting the sense that this is what was going on then and in between Whenever there was a


going on then and in between Whenever there was a requirement the Prime Minister was briefed on this the foreign secretary and the defense minister also kept into the loop nearly on a daily basis right and so they know every step of the way and everybody is on the page same page there's no dissonance because that can cause trouble yes and like I told you all and everyone was the was aware of what was happening what were the responses and actions to be taken and like this doklam was not only resolved at what we did at doklem itself which was our military part of it and our actions even the prime minister's initiative of walking up to Mr Xi Jinping at a meeting on 15th of July that was a SEO meeting oh sorry G20 meeting he walked up to the Chinese Premier Premier and told him that okay this is a time now this is what has happened we need to resolve it and I believe he agreed that's what the newspaper reports is that we


that's what the newspaper reports is that we should talk diplomatically what on the ground what happened was we started communicating at the level of the foreign minister and the development there are some who will interpret that as a weakness on the part of uh on the part of a political leadership that we made a move towards an aggressor but I remember you saying that peace is what is most important so for that reason for for the for the larger good or for the larger reason for peace you might have to take make the first move towards an aggressor so please explain to us as to what happened there why is it necessary sometimes it was it was something which was not this meeting was not scheduled this was an initiative which the Prime Minister took seeing the seriousness of the whole issue but what had happened something which we could have turned to a war stopped at a confrontation which got resolved we have to see the bigger picture and this was because the Prime Minister understanding the seriousness


this was because the Prime Minister understanding the seriousness of the problem and finding a solution which I think was the best so there are many times political leaderships need to take that decision not to go to war even though your forces are ready for it operation parakram was also that yes right so uh you know mobilization happened but ultimately war is a political decision and no words have led to a solution that is any War we have fought so many wars with Pakistan and we are ready to fight with China if required they will it would be to protect the boundaries of our nation and not to get anything else [Music] confrontation was there uh it went on for 74 days I remember Jal rawat and the people in nscs talking uh like praising you uh for your resolve during the crisis was there at any point of time any possibility or any market like young say and galwan uh where you felt that okay you know you remind me is that when those situation all along the LEC was very


that when those situation all along the LEC was very sensitive and of course and Sikkim doklam was happening and it was 15th August and we had gone for the prime minister's speech and his Red Fort that I get a message that there's some problem in ladakh so I check up initially the inputs do not come immediately but it came was that there had been as you say Market there had been a confrontation between our troops and the Chinese on finger four finger four and it had become really violent and if you see the social media photographs I have I have that videos we had injured a Chinese Soldier which very maturely one of our men ensured that he does not it does not become too serious and you had seen it the violence had become slightly more well such incidents are the most dangerous where tactical Commander's actions can lead to war it was a serious situation we handled it and we both sides could handle it because we had some rules of the game we pulled


because we had some rules of the game we pulled back from there and it did not affect the serious point that was local I think we should now move on to the other hat that General survey has done the new hat the new hat that you wear so let's move to this you know you're the director general of the Indian space Association um so now it's it's built as the next big thing and there are already 45 or so space startups so tell us what does the future look like uh okay I would I would start with this how it happened uh you uh space has always been a strategic sector world over it has been the domain of governments be It in America beat in India and India it was led by ISRO who has done a fantastic job they have kept us amongst very few space-faring nations of the world that's it in America the Open Sky policy came around in late 90s just and what is the outcome of that was people like Elon Musk Virgin Galactic Jeff Bezos were


like Elon Musk Virgin Galactic Jeff Bezos were private players started getting into the space domain and when that has happened that has in India also the government realized that we also should have an opportunity for our private place because from the Strategic sector today's space has moved that it has become a commercial Enterprise like I would give you an example early morning today when you would have woke up and if you used Google you have used space when you check the weather you have used space when you transferred some money or collected some money from an ATM you have your space all civilian users and many more the farmer today when he decides to plant trees or whatever his crops he looks at what is it when is the rains coming what is the right time and even if it's if if his crop fails and he has to make a claim the banks check it through Satellite photographs so it has now become a very very important part of our civilian life and hence it was very important that India also


life and hence it was very important that India also apart from ISRO which has been doing a fabulous job private players should come in unfortunately for us firstly isros suppliers and vendors have got good knowledge of technology and that is lnt that is walchang industries that is gothridge that is HL and these are the four or five major ones and a new thing after the Prime Minister made a decision and even before that 2020 this decision was taken that we will allow space to be privatized in India startups have started coming in and today the number we have is of 100 plus and the first startups who started in around 2018 last year fired the first rocket two of them have launched satellites created in the private domain and many more will do it now in fact one of our startups called pixel is going to make a consolation of satellites which will look at the whole world from the low earth orbit and do remote sensing by hyperspectral which is a very high in technology in the world it


is a very high in technology in the world it is rare and by the end of this year or next year they will have a constellation where they will provide information for handling disaster management or for monitoring forest fires or monitoring petroleum pipelines and it is being done by young men averages 28 to 30. so many generations of Indians I would say uh you know we've grown up looking at the space wars between the between America and the former Soviet Union today there is the space wars or competition between America and China where does India figure in this like I said we are amongst the very few space-faring nations of the world and we have the technology and know-how of the best and why I'm saying of the best is we have been able to send something to the mangalyan and the chandrayaan and very soon human gaganyan which is a human beings going up to the space well also knots right we have nots there so we we have the technological capability and we are there


we we have the technological capability and we are there yes in the last few years China has been very aggressively going into space they had very large number of launches 50 or more last year compared to a very few three to four buyers but that does not mean we do not have capability now there is one thing called space as far as military goes it is one of the we say the new two domains apart from Land Air and sea is cyber in space but here I would say space is not for space wars that may take a little longer but space helps the present land sea and air to operate it is for communication it is for ISR that is knowing where the enemy is today with what you have in the space no place in the world is hidden they are they the Precision of 10 centimeters they can read a plate of anywhere the whole area the whole border everything can be seen from space so the space has become a major enhancer of the capability of any military force and so since


of the capability of any military force and so since you you are heading the organization Association you are promoting startups now you are a military man basically but in the space Association do you are you encouraging Indian startups to develop something where we can have a a system where these from space we can see if there is an infiltrator moving towards uh terrorists moving towards the loc and alert the ground troops to eliminate him then yeah that that would be a dream of any company Commander NCO or any military commander it will happen one day very soon is there work going on now uh yeah in this I will just like to tell you is the ministry of Defense took a great initiative they would never talk to private players but they have discussed with my industry members my startups and with us and sat down to lay down the challenges for what they expect from private players exactly like you were saying what all is required in space for the militaries the three militaries Army Navy and Air


militaries the three militaries Army Navy and Air Force and this was made into what is called idex K defense challenges so and 75 challenges have been now put into the open domain this is uh to me it has been personally a great achievement that is the militaries which never talk to private players about space have now interacted with private players in India and put something across to them what are the aspirations for what do they want enhancement for and um one of the things in that would be that we would be able to see an infiltrator coming across and so like now you are dealing a lot with the private companies now I remember about a few years back private was a very bad word in the military correct people would say suspicious now you're talking about a lot of successes from private sector this is happening in defense also yeah so firstly this government itself has changed the environment from the mindset which I would say the Buffer's mindset or what happened in those times it is


mindset or what happened in those times it is a different world and there's been a very uh creative thing done by defense Ministry called idex where they throw challenges to Young uh young innovators young startups on something which needs to be created in India they finance it partially and they let them go from the stage of an idea to a product being made so it's a it's a different world it's I have seen this world changing from my ability experience where I would not talk to any industry man when I was in uniform not officially at least do what is happening now right and it is a positive change because they also have to be partners in our security right so you spoke about Mission gaganyan can you tell us a little bit about where you know Indian astronauts going into space when is that going to happen we are not you know uh yeah uh previously the target was about 2023-24 they have reviewed the targets and slightly it will take a little more time because very rightly like


will take a little more time because very rightly like the Israel Chief says human life is very important and they have to do multiple tests to ensure that they when they ultimately send a man to space it is totally safe right but what is already going on is the training of the astronauts or the worm notes as you say the equipment on which it will go and this year there will be tests on what they call checking it for disaster something happens if it has to be launched and how all the equipment has been working and all there are multiple tests they have to do when they will reach the level when they will put actually put a human being and send them across but it will happen I mean My Generation sir we were in school when scorn leader Sharma went and you know there was there's always a hope that in my lifetime at least I want to see a view I'm not oh yes not in your lifetime so it's in a few years all right okay now tell us about the


few years all right okay now tell us about the chandrayaan 3 at what stage are we sir because there was this Collective sense of dismay you know when that uh Vikram Lander of chandrayaan 2 it crashed so where are we right now on that uh I think it's uh the new one which they are making for children three is a more modern and much more uh it will be uh far better one made and if you see Vikram also we saw that okay did not land at all but what had been achieved till where it was sent was a great thing it just happened uh in space one small error cost the whole mission and that is what happened in that case that in the final Landing there was something which did not work but that is why maybe it is taking a little more time but this will also again happen very soon I would not be the one who would like to put a timeline on this on any of the missions because the Israel chairman does he keeps


the missions because the Israel chairman does he keeps keeps making a statement and like in science and especially rocket science which is Ultimate we have to leave the timelines to our scientists right and and Sir talking about all these programs now when we sent the mission to Mars uh that was in terms of cost it was very low if you compare it with the Americans how are we how are our costs compared to what the Chinese are doing uh in terms of satellites and creating these constellations no as far as China goes we are not aware of what is their cost because they have not commercially been talking of it okay we only get a sense of what America or many other nations do but if you compare it with all others in the world the ISRO program itself and even the cost of launch cost of satellite made by ISRO and now future in the future by a private sector would be very competitive cost wise it would be competitive enough that people from all over the world will use our launch vehicles


from all over the world will use our launch vehicles or get satellites manufactured in India already uh some countries have used oh yes they have been that is they've been using the right of our pslvs and gslvs the latest has been 36 satellites of one web which were launched by the gslv in October okay so that has been happening but more of it will happen than when the private sector uh launch Vehicles will go up in the space how uh like how would they be in terms of cost comparison with the ISRO ones now firstly what I would like to tell you is we are quite cheap in comparison to others but ever since Elon Musk has come into the Fray and the reusable rocket he has made cost of launch one-fifth of what it was before okay that is a very tall order to compete with because it requires the technology of a reusable rocket but I am very confident that will also be made in India till you spoke about how um you know this the the achievements


about how um you know this the the achievements that we have done in space research and all how it's benefiting from farmer uh to the defense and all so can you explain a little more about how this digital divide that everybody talks about in India how that can be surmounted uh through space in fact that is one of the things my Association has always been propounding and I've been loving on it with the government uh you know India the biggest challenge is that half of India maybe 47 percent Plus which is in the rural areas or areas like ladakh or Endermans or many other unconnected areas because what has happened is mobiles have come all over the world country but fibration has not reached the last man Northeast arunachal Pradesh ladakh now space will overcome that okay because technologically it is far easier to do it uh satellite today on a low consolation is something like a tower in the sky we call it fiber in space and that will ensure it will connect the man in the village


will ensure it will connect the man in the village has also provide him broadband these low earth Leo constellations which are being created by one web which are being created by starlink claim and I'm very sure will provide Broadband connectivity to the furthest Corner equal speeds comparable speeds to what terrestrial communication right and what happens the outcome of that is the whole economy of the rural area will change yes because they will be able to do fintech they will be able to do education they will be able to use it for health tourism too and also Enterprises will go there factories will go there yes because iot's can also be used because I've seen very often you know uh there are these people make this Instagram reels and things which they make that beautiful Village uh that you know bed and breakfast in some area and then the they say but we can we can't make reels we can't put it we can't promote tourism in these areas even if it's ecological tourism friendly tourism even


even if it's ecological tourism friendly tourism even that can't happen and you know when tourists reach a place the economy improves so connectivity is extremely important absolutely right so that broad band connected broadband connected will be achieved far faster with satellite communication I feel this restraint a lot in ladakh and near the pangong where you can click thousands of pictures but they will know there is no connectivity at all and most of the tourists like I go there for coverage but most of the tourists who come there they feel this then there are Villages near chuchul and all these areas are natural you're right but in from a security point of view sir is it okay because there is also this thing that once you open up and you give everybody connectivity out there uh the enemy can also use that the fact is you may deny it to your people because of the security but today satellites and especially like the low earth observation satellites are international you cannot tell Elon Musk not to provide


international you cannot tell Elon Musk not to provide it to Pakistan correct or maybe China also because he's a commercial Enterprise so it is something you deny to your people on the region of security is you are you will be left behind in the race you have to find other methods to ensure that security is taken care of Agents of this one thing that I want to pick up this is uh David devdas is a book on the story on Kashmir he writes the Saving Grace was that the officers in charge in 2018 were far more sensitive and nuanced than those who had fought a proxy war in the late 1990s intelligent and responsive officers like the co-commander Anil Bhatt and the commander-in-chief of the northern command understood the limitations of kinetic operations in home Arenas explain on this how is it different from the 90s and now uh well the times were different and the requirements were different okay because in 1990 when the upstairs took place it was the situation was that a large part of the


was the situation was that a large part of the valley was not under the control of the security forces firstly we were very low numbers RR had not been created we were focused on the line of control but internally we just hardly had a brigade or a little more and those challenging times where armies of terrorists were being trained in villages in Pockets which were aware and far of reach it was something like it was an they were they were believing and the whole people of Kashmir were believing that they would have taken Kashmir in a few days we almost lost Kashmir in 90s 90s so at that time maybe kinetic operations were much more important neutralization of a larger number of terrorists was important and maybe the collateral damages were also larger and we as an army also were dealing with a very challenging situation at that time but as things have improved and when I went there I looked at the cycle of violence from 1990 to when I took over in 2018.


from 1990 to when I took over in 2018. I saw our successes and our failures but you were there before 2018 also as a younger officer so as a younger of every time my every Tour of Duty is different it was different right you had to shift across and I'll give I'll give you the best example is on Eid uh my some of my predecessors started it Local Company commanders would call local people and serve Biryani and all to the people as a Goodwill gesture now this was done all across the valley it was being done previously I said yes why not and it establishes the writ of the company Commander his contact with the people now this was happening all over on that day I got a report at one place that there was uh when we are people who are Distributing food there was violence a crowd came in there was Stone pelting and the people my people who had gone to distribute the Biryani at the Masjid were had to really withdraw using


at the Masjid were had to really withdraw using firing weapons in the air now many of my commanders said why should we feed them when this is the response hmm I also reviewed it but I said no it will continue why because we did it at 2000 places it is only one place we got that response at the rest of the 1900 people people were very warm and they took it so so to again differentiate between the people and the separatists is very important right and that that was my focus in Kashmir I listed out every jamadi I listed out every hurry up member to differentiate him who had Stakes with Pakistan who had stakes in the violence who was even selling admissions in Pakistan and Pakistan for students from Kashmir this is what the Korea Chief used to do collect money for that somebody would pay him 10 lakhs 20 lakhs he would keep half the money this was the money to be used for Terrace or for him and in the 90s the horiats were just about starting


in the 90s the horiats were just about starting out and they were like kings after that in your earlier 10 years you would have seen that so you've seen the difference of when Chief died nobody even there was nothing otherwise five years back if he had died because he was an old man and he could have died any time they were fears that there would be violence and Kashmir would want we have been able to create a situation where he died like any old man go away you were there you had your very casually saying 274 terrorists died in one year there were a lot of big targets big terrorists or so-called senior commanders were killed and you had a list top 10 I guess that started top 10 terrorists to be eliminated how frequently did that list you had to like you could take off uh that in sub challenge types when you make a list it puts a pressure on the other guy that he he otherwise also knows and like the average age of a terrorist we


and like the average age of a terrorist we have reduced it the HM leader did not previously would survive for five to ten years by the time my tenure was getting end it was ending it was nine months to earlier a local terrorist who took a palms and a young boy his survival rate was six months three months all of this has the outcome has been lesser people joining there a situation uh Mohammed azer the Jesh leader in the area of thrall where there is send his nephews the first nephew came he was supposedly a great leader who was a sniper fighter and they said he'll create thrall again into what it was 15 years back he went back to Allah or to his uncle in 15 days the next nephew was sent we send him back send them up in 10 days and the third one was in three days so that was the kind of intelligence Network so he had three of Masood others they claimed that they were nephews I don't know if he has so


were nephews I don't know if he has so many brothers and Sons but yes definitely out of the three two we knew who were his uh his nephews is that communicated back to them yeah we do that you do that right that kind of conversation is necessary yes it is it doesn't have to be on a on a phone call or something but it gets communicated right are the bodies send back are they what happens to them no uh it is a rule we follow in Kashmir uh All Foreign terrorists will be buried in a place which we have identified unmarked yes but it is a place we've identified it from anywhere there will be and also the locals are I guess told that or the message has gone that there's no incentivizing sending their sons so yes and that was itself a major effort and thanks to the our security agencies also who helped us in it we were able to map these people who were organizing it they was an organization working from horit working from other


they was an organization working from horit working from other separatists who would go when a terrorist would die to make it into a big affair making the mother fire a weapon getting the crowds collected from all the villages around having all those the total drama which used to come of any terrorist tank and showing 10 000 people there and all was done by an organization which organized it we picked them up so it was an organic those visuals that no they were all done up there were social media groups who would say reach there you have to reach there people had to report that they've reached there so if I'm not even involved in in any way in terrorism if I did not go there there would be a blowback to me so we identified these ring leaders these perpetuators and of course many of them are behind bars right so you spoke about uh social media and how it uh it helps create a narrative for the militants and then you used the the forces use that same social


then you used the the forces use that same social media to break that narrative could you give me a little bit uh you know this is this is one of the biggest challenges is the echo Chambers which get created in the social groups what happens is many of these social media groups of these young boys where they believe everything being done by India the Indian government is against them the story which would be told to them and would be exaggerated would be Indian now then there is a social media narrative which we put across everywhere I'm not I I realized that many of them are not seeing what I am putting across I have to get into their groups I have to get into their minds and for that we we use resources that people were there inside to put in a story and that has its impact right but yes it it required creating teams taking local help because they would understand the local mind much more uh but yes a very important thing from this social media and was we also understood


thing from this social media and was we also understood what was the vitriol and where was it what was the cause of it and many a times the cause was wrong it was based on a lie so the best thing was hinge your your your campaign on puts on facts right and that helped okay thank you sir thank you very much for giving us your time and shedding light on the various uh aspects in the doklam region as well as in Jammu Kashmir and space so thank you for your time on behalf of Ajit and me so I would just say every Soldier has a dream I have a to do the best in the armed forces for me it has thanks to the Army it has been a dream plan I could do everything possible which any Soldier would aspire to and my prayer to God is next life also I should start the same way and become a soldier what a lovely thing to say Jain sir thank you thank you for watching or listening into this podcast do


you for watching or listening into this podcast do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste thank you [Music]


what can you do when the public is accepting this content you are not able to accuse me of plagiarism which is your standard go to Trope because I'm an IP lawyer by practice come after me and I'll rip you apart on content I'm saying I am not claiming uh expertise here I am standing on the shoulders of giants I am doing what any scientific publication would do which is Citation citation citation citation 900 footnotes and notes deal with it the existence of Hinduism in the current day is predicated on hindutra being kept alive if Hinduism were living in peace time hindutva will sleep but if that's not the case hindutva has to stand up it is the shatra aspect of Hinduism the speed with which the community reacted to the pathan controversy is not the speed with which it reacts on freedom of temples from the state we read the history of wahhabism as if it's in a separate Silo when it comes to the Middle East but we don't wish


it comes to the Middle East but we don't wish to talk about what happened parallel in Bharat all the wahhabis where sufis so it's very difficult for me to buy this Bollywood presented invention that when you think of Sufi think of these dervishes with the long hats the long ropes just swirling around constantly in ecstasy every time an Indian cricketer celebrates a Hindu festival just go through the comments and the hate meal that he receives I don't blame the Muslim Community leaders or the founders of Pakistan for what they did because they had they did what according to them was divinely ordained I blame the Hindus for not doing enough and for not standing by their culture we are the ones buried under these degrees of coloniality where we find it so difficult to unabashedly represent our own positions stand by our own culture that's the problem this pacifism is the consequence of the moderate Spirit introduced into Indian public discourse by the creation of this entity called


Indian public discourse by the creation of this entity called the Congress Namaste welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash many of you have written in to request us to get some domain Specialists to our Delhi Studios for the podcast we do try our best to accommodate as many requests as possible I'm not really a fan of Zoom interviews it reminds me of the covet era and hence all our guests are those who come to our Delhi Studios today I speak with Jay Sai Deepak engineer turned litigator turned author his two books India that is Bharat coloniality civilization Constitution and India Bharat and Pakistan the Constitutional journey of a sandwich civilization are two voluminous well-researched books on the Indian civilization his views are hugely popular among a cross-section of the Indian population which believes that the way Indians have read and perceived history of its own civilization is through the prism of their colonial Masters that Indians constantly seek validation on the other hand some


Indians constantly seek validation on the other hand some historians feel that Sai Deepak and some other historians are whitewashing history through an unnecessary debate of native versus Colonial prism uh thank you so much for coming to our Studios uh I before this uh just for our viewers before the uh podcast begins I just want to tell you that off camera I asked him I said how should I address you because you know I've seen some of your videos and some call you Jay Sai some call you Sai some call you say the book so I said okay how do I refer to you so then you've been kind enough that I can take your first name and refer to you as Psy so you know I I wanted to have you long back on the podcast because almost every podcast that I have done 20 25 of them in the comment section it's always ma'am can you please have Jason mom can you please have Js hi Deepak I said look I'm gonna have him but only after I've


look I'm gonna have him but only after I've read your book because I'm a little bit finicky about such things that I need to read the book and get to know uh you know what your point of view is uh and you make very compelling arguments if I may say uh it's very hard to completely disagree with you because you you speak uh you and your your theory your your arguments are very sound uh if I may say so let's so let's begin with this book especially uh India Bharat and Pakistan so um you know while reading this um as you know I had Vikram also Vikram sampath here there's this whole host of books which have come out by Indique historians um some say that it's it's just too much too soon do you think that's the case so first of all thank you for having me over uh I'm happy that someone's at least asked me how do you wish to be addressed and they've got my name right so thank you so much okay um I think


right so thank you so much okay um I think your podcast with Vikram was fabulous uh Vikram of course is brilliant at his subject and I would say he's certainly uh he fits the definition of a true blue Indie custodian and he's taking forward the legacy of people like Dr Meenakshi Jain and others in a very brilliant way and I think people like Vikram and people of this generation fortunately we have the social media positional Advantage which the previous generation did not have and since they were Gatekeepers of scholarship around that particular generation uh they weren't the others weren't able to break through that that let's say that iron fought fortunately I think that Bastion has now been broken into now or to respond to your question I think uh the pace at which narratives are being set up uh citing I would say to started history ever since what I would call the tectonic year 2019 with multiple developments back to back August 5th then you had the ca then you had


August 5th then you had the ca then you had the IOD attachment then you had the status quadrant submiller case and whatnot so much going on that uh the central issue in one way or the other was always about the identity of this country it's fundamental parichay and therefore I think it was imperative for these Works to come out for quick succession putting out multiple perspectives allow me to say this without an iota of false modesty I'm certainly nowhere in the same league as Mr Sanjeev sanyal or Vikram sampath or any of these people because they're brilliant at their own subjects for instance Mr sanyal who's just come out with this brilliant book on revolutionaries of Bharat who whose greater economics and history I am approaching this more from the perspective of a practicing Advocate trying to understand the underlying mentality in my own profession and our approach to issues such as secularism constitutional morality so on and so forth so I genuinely believe that these discussions


forth so I genuinely believe that these discussions are timely and very very relevant I hope there are more voices that come out sooner because I think after a point people might get jaded with the same set of voices and the same set of faces they'll say okay we have heard his position what does he have to contribute right so that shouldn't happen so the fatigue with respect to a particular phase or a set of phases mustn't translate to fatigue with respect to the content of the perspective so we need more voices so I hope that the next few years at least three or four years we see more and more people coming to the fore who are able to take some of the seeds or Easter eggs that we have shown in each of these books Take It Forward dig deeper and then come out with their own views on it so I'd say no this is certainly not too soon or too much too soon let's say this is the right amount and perhaps we may even need more okay uh


amount and perhaps we may even need more okay uh I'm going to quote I'm going to read out some extracts uh during the course of this podcast um stuff that I found interesting and viewers uh you know you must buy this book uh there'll be many things that that you might find more interesting than I did but I'm gonna take out some you know you you say uh sorry that history and I quote history tends to reward those with long Collective memory and you write in this book uh I'm going to go to this bharatiya mind which you talk about uh it's on page nine for those of you who want to see it um you say this that in the absence of this big picture the bharatiya mind which is currently buried deep under three layers of coloniality European Middle Eastern and nehruvian Marxist post Colonial will continue to consume popular comforting and infantile fictions I want you to elaborate on this infantile fiction uh one such fiction which you mentioned uh is the existence of


such fiction which you mentioned uh is the existence of the Ganga jamuni the much touted composite culture composite cultural creature that is supposed that is the supposed product of a syncretic relationship between Hinduism and Islam creating the so-called unique Indian Islam now generations of Indians have grown up on this you know listening to this that how lucky we are as Indians to have this now you come with this very uncomfortable truth which tries to shatter I don't know whether it has shattered it or not this fiction which you call so please explain to me what this is about so during the course of my research for this book I went through a huge learning curve my preconceived notions about the so-called independent movement around that particular period its leaders everything changed uh the first thing that I realized is that this composite creature called the ganga jamnita is a relatively new construct in our public discourse and which can at best be traced to the period between 1916 and 1923 and not before nor after because you


and 1923 and not before nor after because you see until 1916 this much was very clear that while the Congress of that particular period wanted to project itself as the big tent of all sorts of ideas as long as it was uh let's say seeking some kind of a home rule or autonomous governance for Indians staying within the realm of let's say the color the Empire the colonial Empire so to speak the Muslim identity was crystal clear I'd say largely clear that I don't think the train can meet and one of the foremost persons to make this point uh was saying because most people assume that it is the creation of the Congress which led to his own views on the ruination theory but the fact of the matter is those views preceded the creation of the Congress by at least 50 years thanks to his own education in certain seminaries I've mentioned all those facts second 1924 also turned out to be one of those years which translated into severe introspection on the part of several Indian leaders


severe introspection on the part of several Indian leaders because they realize that in the process of supporting the khilafat movement and the non-cooperation effectively was meant to further the cause of Khalifa that was not meant for Indian independence that much is very clear nobody can make that statement whatsoever because I've quoted Congress proceedings have quoted Muslim League crusadings this is a myth that needs to be busted and I think I've done that when you see that two things happened one set of leaders from within the Congress effectively realized that they had created a dragon which is going to be difficult to reign in and this Dragon always or rather they hadn't created a dragon they had revived a dragon what is this drug this is the dragon that believes the donation Theory oh okay this is the dragon that led to the creation of Pakistan which was always waiting for an opportunity to present itself to reassert itself so that the person can be let's say resuscitated so to speak in


be let's say resuscitated so to speak in Bharat and the khilafat movement coupled with the cooperation of the Congress under Gandhi or even before that by tilak and others had given them the opportunity from 24 to 46. you're looking at the movement towards the creation of Pakistan and the crystallization of the idea of Pakistan and the reality of Pakistan I would only ask what gangasib that's one because by 1946 the elections make it abundantly clear that the majority of the Muslim population had voted for the creation of Pakistan and therefore everybody who chose to stay back stayed back for reasons of pragmatism and practicality but not for patriotism is a position to have already taken because you've already cast your ballot at let's say you vote at the ballot clearly with respect to particular idea and its ratification so can there be a clearer statement of intent and position I don't think so that's one now I would then say that post Independence the deification of this


then say that post Independence the deification of this particular composite creature must be laid at the doors of the Distortion of History helmed under under jawah nehru and the Marxist nehruvian quarter of historians that he puts together which actively sideline people like RC majumdar and others and then also to this particular cabal I would call the ipta which had a lot of marxist Muslims I think Mr Cafe asmi was also part of this and all these people are part of it and then I think Bollywood starts playing a huge huge role in creating this so we are told that Mohammad Rafi sang bhajans and then we are told that uh set music for some of these bhajans and that they did know of course they did of course they did I'd say I'm not going to let a Bhajan effectively come in the way of my larger picture of what happened in history that is something I am not going to buy that so if I may interrupt uh you said it's uh


so if I may interrupt uh you said it's uh it's in the 20th century right right that this and there's no there's no reference earlier maybe not the term right but tell me the sentiment didn't agree suppose it didn't exist suppose we were to just look back at say Akbar and Dinah you you've written about that in your book gone into great depths about that but I'm just asking you because most people who've grown up think that okay there was this the syncretic culture which was there especially in the ganga area right the problem is whenever we choose to examine or unpack these issues I think somewhere the uh the Examination for causality goes for a toss so let me do a typical analysis here in terms of what is the cause and what is the effect this much is clear that there have been multiple waves of islamization of the converted Hindu Muslim population from the Hindu population so until that particular process of islamization is complete the converted Muslim who was previously a


is complete the converted Muslim who was previously a Hindu continues to hold on to his cultural roots and religious roots in one way or the other because he's not able to let go of the religion of his ancestors now this is sought to be presented as the accommodative facet or aspect of Islam which is not the case because you have to go a few years forward and then you realize the next wave of islamization removes even those vestiges and that is what we see as wahhabisation I'm sorry it's not wahhabisation it's the complete islamization of the convert because we don't understand wahhabism the way it is supposed to be we see it as some kind of an extreme tangent of Islam which is not the case it has a significant following in this country it has perhaps a greater following in this country at least since the 19th century than in Arabia we don't wish to talk about it that's a different issue okay so that's one to Dr ambedkar specifically says


so that's one to Dr ambedkar specifically says as much in his book Pakistan is the partition of India let me say this for the sake of public record that I have serious and several disagreements of Dr ambedkar but I think on on some of those issues where I think I may end up agreeing with him is his reading of this mindset the Islamic mindset and the origins of donation Theory where he's he doesn't beat around the bush at all so a lot of people who wish to quote him for multiple reasons somehow don't want to quote him for his views on Islam they must read it and there he is very clear that this composite creature is effectively the residual product of incomplete conversion of the Hindu to Islam that is a clear analysis it makes abundant sense clearly lighting of a lamp or breaking of a coconut hasn't come from Islam these are native Traditions which some people are finding it difficult to letting to let go of but with every wave of islamization and


go of but with every wave of islamization and further wahhabisation or wahhabilization and hence islamization that wave goes I'll give you an example from my own part of the country in Hyderabad there is a point where perhaps the burkha was common but the hijab wasn't and you would rarely find Muslim men wearing the Abaya that's not the case anymore you find it in the Hyderabad Airport you go to Mangalore you'll find it you'll find it in tamilnad Kerala has been the case for a very long time by the way most people don't know this so therefore I am asking myself the visible symbols have changed is it your case that this is purely an external change or is it not the product of a change in the mindset then what do you make of the hijab controversy that happened recently could this controversy have been expected a few years ago or a few decades ago because that analysis is stuck in some kind of ossified time frame where


stuck in some kind of ossified time frame where you're saying this is the golden period where this syncretic creature existed we are unable to see what happened before we are unable to see the existence of this period in the larger context and what happened later you at least extend the time frame and ask yourself the right questions I think the answer should be fairly clear comfortable or not is a different question we just spoke about the two Nation Theory you were just mentioning it most people would think that you know the two Nation Theory students those who are not students of History would think that Jinnah was the one who had the at least he's the one who verbalized it more and made it more acceptable to Indians but he was the one who did the two Nation Theory some who would have read a little more would say uh shashita says it's savarkar so where did it origin where was the origin of the two Nation Theory and where is it now because even now it's being talked about


it now because even now it's being talked about so I'll give you four names and four timelines was alive between 1703 and 1762. he passed away a year after the battle of third battle of panipat after abdali left this country after having ravished the place and after having destroyed what I would call the spine of the maratha empire Khan passes away in 1898 September savarkar was born in 1883. Gandhi was born in 1869. Jinnah was born later I would say is perhaps a contemporary of savarkar in that particular sense a junior to Gandhi and way Junior to say that Khan sabarkar was 15 years old when sayadama Khan passed away so you must credit him with a lot of Genius to say that that 15 year old boy created the tunation theory right that's not possible because most people believe that sauerkaran all those people who subscribe to his point of view don't have brains so let's assume that's not the case here right now then you go to


not the case here right now then you go to the next station listeners if you are not watching this on video Sai is being sarcastic out here okay yeah so starts speaking of Hindus and Muslims as two races at the very least from his first book of 1858 where he traces the causes of the bhagavat namely the 1857 Rebellion but much before that he is educated in a seminary called madrasa at rahimya which comes from or which is in Delhi which is based out of Delhi that institution is single-handedly responsible for producing at least seven major Islamic movements in this country movement because all the founders are alumnus or alumni of this particular institution or have been taught by the gurus of this particular institution now let's not call them gurus and teachers of that particular Institution and the records clearly show that they were significantly influenced by the teachings of one gentleman who passed away in 1762. so his children and his grandchildren take over this institution


so his children and his grandchildren take over this institution and are single-handedly responsible for keeping the tradition alive who clearly said I am perhaps a fourth generation descendant of Arab Invaders I've lived in this country but I am not an Indian in the sense he says I don't belong to this land obviously the word India did not exist then but he says I don't belong to this land he sees himself as an Arab clearly says we cannot mix or intermingle with the local population under any circumstances because for two reasons one I am Arab plus I'm a Muslim so there is an ethno related sense of supremacism that pervades his thought process now we should ask ourselves why is he so important to this entire discussion he is important because from diabanth to every institution of repute that you can name which is of Islamic origin so to speak names him as their intellectual forefather in their own records and books yeah and I've shown it from their own books yeah I'm going


shown it from their own books yeah I'm going to quote this I had pointed out I had written it you know I didn't know that you're going to be talking about it but then I had already taken it out he said in this which I was going to come to this about the doctrine of jihad and in this you've even brought sir Hindi and he says that caused of Islam Reformation revivalism establish re-establish Islam in Bharat um in its most pristine form through strict adherence to the Sharia and by purging of it of heresy such as Sufi mysticism attendant unislamic beliefs and practices you have gone into great detail about the influence of the hell we in your book which is very interesting yes go ahead so the hell we comes out with two Central philosophies which continue to influence the history of this country and which influenced the khilafat movement as well as the partition of India so he specifically says that Islam mandates and requires the establishment of a caliphate so