it was well researched by people who were in the Army Headquarters who are dealing with this subject so for accusation of a coup it's it's accusation of treason absolutely nobody's going to jail nobody's happened why I wrote to the home minister when I was uh and even later I pursued it you look here this is what the thing is why haven't you filed a case of treason against a b c d e nothing has happened it has just been quietly pushed out of uh view all together who do you blame sir do you blame do you blame the forge do you blame the mod do you blame a congress party do you blame the BJP whom do you blame for this this it is a cover-up obviously on the media of course you blame obviously the cover-up started uh with the Congress because they had more to hide than what what would have been there so the cover-up started and you you don't blame the whole party there were people


you don't blame the whole party there were people influential people who didn't want a particular thing sir during this entire episode from 2011 12 13 14 till the Congress government was there one person who always who never said anything against you or your decisions was your defense minister Anthony no uh since I was covering that time there's a lot of talk that you are also a victim of inter the Rivalry between uh Anthony and people uh in the pmo and home initiators and I can I can vote for it AKA Anthony knew that whatever ever when I go to him I'll only be talking for the welfare of troops never did I ever make any personal Demand on it in fact even when the first uh this thing on the age thing started I think it was February 14th or something like that in 2011. I went and told him you decide I am ready to quit anytime that you say I was very clear in my mind that I'm not here to you know uh of course I have


not here to you know uh of course I have said this to him for some other reason also you look here if this is the way things are I don't mind quitting what is there being ding ding the chief is not the end-all when did you say this at the other time was it because of TSD no it was it was because of the bribe offer the tatra truck over that oh my God I'm going to bring ayari now into it how close to the truth was ayari the film yeah he was fairly close okay fairly close gents I'm going to talk about the episode of TSD uh it was this clandestine outfit Secret outfit that was created um post 2611 you decide what terminology you want to give it because there's everybody is giving all kinds of names to it there are films made on it um so you know I need to know how did you create this who all signed off on it firstly anything which deals with intelligence is both clandestine both secretive as also it


intelligence is both clandestine both secretive as also it is supposed to do certain tasks every every intelligence outfit that you take first time uh the discussion came up was with the then dgmi Rakesh lumba who told me that and we would came up because of I was talking about the Mumbai thing 26 years how things got how we could have done things better and he said well at the end of it the NSA had called the no I know I would call the Chiefs and said what can you do and they said nothing was not our mandate nothing nothing they can't do anything which is see after all you are mandated to say Military Intelligence is supposed to look only after this area other agencies will look after that area so that there is no uh Clash in my thinking any intelligence work would always have a certain amount of overlap if you do not have overlap then you will miss out on things so we talked about it and the idea came up that we should have a intelligence outfit which should


up that we should have a intelligence outfit which should be more human intelligence oriented should be able to have reliable sources on the other side who should be able to give you the type of information that you are looking for which is inimical to the country okay okay and information flow should become once uh this was clear then we decided that yes okay let's form a pilot project right because till the time you don't try it out you don't want to make it permanent so it was a pilot project it was a pilot project it was called TSD for want of uh you know anonymity okay and and I think the motivation came from rnaw okay so it became a technical support division it is nothing technical about it right it was all human intelligence and we chose the best people available people who had whom we thoroughly scrutinized in terms of the work that they had done in terms of the output that they had and whether they will fit into this for the idea that we had once we had


this for the idea that we had once we had chosen the commanding officer he was given free hand to choose people so that he has the trust see because any outfit like this it will survive on trust status why one professionalism but it will not survive in acrimony acrimony which stretches the seams of the organization they chose the thing they got all the support and they did a tremendous amount of work tremendous amount of work it's a shame that it was done away let me tell you the type of work they did had we continued with that a lot of things which would which would have become better lot of things such as hafizside many things I'll I'll I'll I'll not uh such as Ibrahim I'll not talk of any any names I'll not talk of for the simple reason that as the organization grows the intelligence and the other type of things will grow you will cooperate with other agencies and then the canvas becomes different okay so names are not important what is important


different okay so names are not important what is important is the type of work and mindu it was we were sharing our inputs where we felt they needed action from an external agency we shared our inputs we told them this is what is happening you better take action and Black Ops it stopped no sir what we had heard was that Gujarat Black Ops so who were you sharing it with because nobody else was taking action so who all signed off on this like did the Prime Minister did you did you have meetings with the Prime Minister on TST did you have meetings with the NSA on TST no no no why should I it was need to know basis with her absolutely but as a pilot project it is see we are sharing information if I give certain amount of information to the NSA I told him this from my agency now he was not asking which agency has given you so but you this agency is credited to having takedown done of people across the border also captain the PM of that time


the border also captain the PM of that time was not interested in finding out okay I'll I'll put it that way and let me also tell you I I talked of Maldives that information was from my agency not from anybody else and mind you assessment of my agency was 150 percent right they said Yamin will not to our line Yamin will go with China and that was not the assessment at the level at which uh you know higher decision making is done that was not the assessment at NSA level but this was completely human there was no Tekken in absolutely sorry they were accused of it the acquisition so you can do anything you can you can put up put a vehicle and put up put something on the again problem is though somebody who right from beginning and especially once he got involved in particular things it was in his interest to somehow bring that defamation thing now how do you do it who was not going to stick so oh he was swooping on the ministers defense Minister's office is


swooping on the ministers defense Minister's office is bugged and uh General VK gets to know everything he's doing tell me what is there to bug in defense Minister's office you could you could you could walk up to the travels Minister and talk to him what you wanted to what is there to be bugged I I still can't understand it so do you regret sir when you look back and say yeah you could you could have uh but you think not then you could have not done anything just relax uh go in the cocktail circuit just say goody forget about the nation why are you there what difference does it make you have reached a pinnacle in the service just remain there and after that just Governor yes but it was not the unfortunately that is not my makeup right I wanted to do something and that's why I said had this agency stayed you would have found a difference 10 years they would have created tremendous amount of work all our areas not just one whether everybody is only


all our areas not just one whether everybody is only looking at one there is another area every area was being you know taken care of are expertise was developing we had worked out plans as to how to develop that expertise we had with selected people what what they would do all is gone and uh anybody who deals with intelligence and one has done a fair amount of work in seeing things when you make sources sources like the most loyal dog you can have sorry for giving that analogy no totally understand he's a one-man person he'll give you the information or nobody else it takes time to develop that trust that I'm not going to give up on him and he's not going to give up on me the day that uh goes away you can't recruit him again so that TSD first unit you're talking about I'm talking about TSD and what they had created that network is gone you can't create that Network again people also say that it was a it was a kind of a a killing machine


a it was a kind of a a killing machine for the country and it was something that had to be done at that stage do you think that there is a need for a Revival or a parallel organization or a parallel setup to be brought about now considering that we have a threat from both sides see let's leave it to the people who are at the helm of Affairs on this matter it's a it's a very serious matter what you do what you plan what your aim is as as Chief at that time my aim was very simple these are my enemies this is what is likely to happen what is it that I can do to contribute towards that I can gather intelligence I can carry out certain things which will preempt certain things happening in my country all with the best possible Manpower that you have selected and all whom you could trust and they could trust you any regrets I mean you do say that um that you know you regret that that was shut down but there is a human


that that was shut down but there is a human element too we had uh honeybakshi on the show and he was and Ajit has covered all of them those who were part of that and the trauma that they all faced in their private lives that's something which pains me the maximum they were singled out because I think they didn't like the person who created I take it as personal their Agony was my agony if they spend sleepless nights I I also spent sleepless nights because I could feel their pain and painful doing something for the country they're not doing anything personal there's nothing personal involved in it hmm and it still pains and they had this they had trauma they had stress disorders absolutely I mean you drive a person to become a psychic case you get after a person you put wrong charges let me take you back of a similarity in Samba spy case what happened then our own people destroyed our own people made stories out of it here the pain was seen they just


out of it here the pain was seen they just wanted somebody to say oh the chief told us to Snoop on ABC that's that that's the problem so when these kind of things happen whether it was the samba case whether it was TSD whether it was the cool thing are there manuals made about that you don't lose confidence of serving soldiers think about what they will have to do next how do you recruit people on missions you've been a Commando no nobody makes manuals it is up to individuals to take lessons and see that when they reach responsible position they're able to do things right and let me uh quote you MacArthur who ordered a letter to his son saying that when you are in a position to change things change them when you are not in a position to change things accept them as they are and you must understand the difference between the two so it is it is for us Snoopy rice manuals these are these are all hair right I have to get to this uh part about


right I have to get to this uh part about the other xiaozing Society thing which happened where retired defense officers they and it was cam tainted they they had Flats out there it was meant for Cargill widows it was meant for Cargill families and there also it was said that you know you were blamed that you gave wrong information to the then raksha mantri because of your Vendetta against General Kapoor information was right uh group of officers retired they with the help of a h defense Estates officer they found an anomaly that had come up that the Dio had found he made a lives with lot of people at that time were posted in Mumbai slowly the things started more people gathered and a society was made to get the permissions kargil was attached to it it was not meant for them was of the army and all records we have gone into great detail right from the British period when the Cantonment came up this land belong to the Army the only


came up this land belong to the Army the only problem was that at some point of time error came in where a particular Road was seen as dividing the Army land which is not so and the defense Estates officer who was there he made use of it in the wrong manner and con for him to convince people you know land value there is that people fell to it it was to be 600 uh building I think by the time it was there uh 30 floors had been done six more were to be made so anybody who obstructed or raised objection and many did they got a fact they could have fled so from six floors it kept rising to 30. the the there was one political uh person whose whole family had Flats yeah so now 14 people were charged including Maharashtra chief minister then Ashok chavan criminal conspiracy then there were two Army Chiefs NC bridge and general Kapoor nobody paid the price for it and that time announcement was made that the former Chiefs are returning the flats back


that the former Chiefs are returning the flats back to the society or yeah and uh it's just sealed right nobody is using anything of that it's but what this is what bugs me now we've covered so many things we've covered the cool thing treason we did the TSD again no action nobody knows what happened now we come to others the third one so no one could give a decision that's it don't give a decision that it has to be demolished anybody but sir like we are talking about demolition but there were people who had no uh no role in no action in Cargill they were Services Chiefs they were taking flats and I told you kargil was only a facilitator everybody had that thing for kargil so you go to let's say somebody said this is meant for kargil this thing but missions will go through because there was an emotional connected that is the thing it was that is what the kargil word was used only for that purpose this was the


word was used only for that purpose this was the I think this was the first time that Services Chiefs like and that too Army chiefs were named in such a corruption and they it came out in public and uh no action nothing happened I I've got to know this thing as to what action why how but uh the fact is it was a whatever people will say but it was Army land illegal you know uh usurping the land and great amount of conivals between defensive States and the people who are the Helm of Affairs were able to get things into their this thing talking about all these things and um and the presence like when you became the Chief Sir uh prior to that two three Chiefs I started covering in 2004 and we knew uh like we generally had a line of succession at that time we knew who is going to become next chief next chief and then after that then the age issue came up they said oh he wants to the the to destabilize the line of succession that


the the to destabilize the line of succession that time I remember from your side there was this point that what line of succession is this some kind of a like some kind of a dynasty that this will come in that will come all that I said was that you made a line of succession now you want to fit things into it then things go wrong no I have what I want to I wanted to ask you sir now people news 2015-16 that thing was ended by this government this line of succession super sessions took place Merit and all those things came in do you think now this kind of a system has helped in doing away with like princes and kings coming up in the making you think this has helped the the Defense Forces I know succession will only use because if you had decided I won't Swan so so from a particular stage you started looking after that person's interest I didn't know that I was going to be Chief I'll be very frankly so many things can go wrong


be very frankly so many things can go wrong and I but then I I call it uh uh this thing that somebody placed me in ambala now when you look back you start thinking of the reasons why could why was that done okay you went to Eastern command till then Eastern command was considered you're not coming to Delhi after that of course there's been a line yeah there have been so many chiefs who did that okay but uh Eastern command otherwise used to be out of the succession scenario so you have if you made a succession thing then it is different still or this thing it was you know one didn't know what uh who what where nothing but yes after that succession things came in and I think this married thing that we talk of is always there as part of a thing when you considered people it was always there the only thing I think which the governments avoided was in this you should ensure that there's least amount of acrimony that's all so I'm going to go a little more


all so I'm going to go a little more into the past you witnessed the genocide in East Pakistan when you were there in 1971 tell us a little bit about that because uh you know I'd interviewed General Jacob many years ago and I had spoken to him about that and that's why I want to know about you because you were a young officer you saw what was happening out there one what did you see two why is it that the world Community just ignored that genocide see genocide took place everybody knows about it in fact uh mascarenas was the one of the journalists who documented it and he was he was a Pakistani yeah he there was a book also published by him the rape of Bangladesh and uh something like that 72 or something that book came out yeah we were getting information from what was happening on the other side we were also when you spoke to the refugees who were fleeing initial stages one was and large number of these people were coming into meghalaya


large number of these people were coming into meghalaya when you talk to them the horrors that they described supplemented whatever you were hearing otherwise no first hand accounts this is not second or third hand accounts when one went in they they were when you broke that first line of uh defense that they had they were bunkers where you find things which shouldn't have been there you found rape victims there no not rape yet you find found women's clothings what were they doing in a all male Defense work there were Mass rapes there yes so inside the Cantonment I'm not I'm not not even in the continent no I'm talking of the anchors in forward bunkers forward bunkers they were raped in bunkers they were raped everywhere that was the way to subjugate intellectuals were short that was the way to subjugate and when one entered the Chittagong and I happened to go with the party which was asked to go to chidugong Medical College It Was a Race Improvement Camp have


Medical College It Was a Race Improvement Camp have you ever thought of it I mean one only thought of these things in uh nazira did a race Improvement camp this was pakistanis doing a race Improvement camp in part of their own land which is East Pakistan had not been liberated I'm just saying this because for the for people who did not know the post 1971 generation who don't know about it in India and then let me also tell you when we were taking this business we were documenting them we were going as per Geneva conventions now you have to document everybody Pakistan Army yes and there was this uh captain uh must have been around 11 ish in the night and uh so he says do know how many people can one bullet kill so I looked at him I said why he said I've tried it it kills so many so I said what do you mean he says I lined them up and shot is he's saying in front of me civilians so just for uh just for just for this


so just for uh just for just for this how many people okay line them up let's see how many people will get it was they were they were treating civilians until then their own citizens as people with whom they could do anything they wanted to I documented all this sir you were the intelligence officer at that time I was it was we we shared it with the whosoever was there these people were taken for interrogation separately we were not doing the interrogation where was Geneva Convention where was all these things wherever these are war crimes they were never tried for it now somebody should have taken up the issue of war crimes but look at the world of that time except for one who supported you the rest of the world was against you well you had a seventh fleet sailing into way of the wall and we were working in a manner in which there was a race they shouldn't be able to do something before we reached so and so place obviously the concerns of that time


and so place obviously the concerns of that time for a country which has been liberated and they had to Grapple with that International opinion they had to Grapple with that they had to and and Muji was in there for for how much time did we stay yeah it was very simple the moment the Law and Order is established things are okay hand over and out you go by early March we were back I mean we were the last ones to come early March because that is the time that the railway track was being laid that karimganj area we came to kamila came to karimganj and off event that time was a mistake that we made I don't I I don't really know but there are many things that have come in the thing it is not just that somebody told the then prime minister that let it not be like the Treaty of our sales where the things will keep happening all over again so be magnanimous I don't think that was the reason the reason was deeper the


think that was the reason the reason was deeper the reason was how to protect mujib without Muji Bangladesh was nothing he was not in East Pakistan Muji was in jail exactly would have been hanged okay how do you protect it so you had to do something so that he's freed he's freed and he could be taken back to Dhaka that would have been the victory and not just the prisoners now these are all that I'm now speculating I'm not thinking at that time nobody knew okay okay for two years the prisoners were with us they were treated very well they went back hopefully they realized that Indians are not as bad as they used to think I know I can't ask you that if you were there now how would you have handled the situation in galwan and you won't tell me even if I ask you but I'll only give you a retrospective gee tell us what happened then like there must have been scholarships I'll give you one only one one incident okay


I'll give you one only one one incident okay and I think that will that can be extrapolated and we do look at how things are happening when I uh took over there was one incident that had happened before I had taken over your sir year 2008 okay so there was an incident that had happened where three bunkers of ours were demolished by the Chinese saying that technically these were in Bhutan okay opposite dockland area why have you allowed it I don't know who allowed it I won't commend it but the fact is they were demolished and I think anybody who thinks about the nation would have that rankling in him this is our area in the sense that we we are assisting Bhutan okay it used to Wrangle I'll be very friend so right in the beginning in my various visits and other things one thing I made it quite clear whatever we have made as defenses the Chinese started saying if this is the line on top of this then you can't make a


line on top of this then you can't make a bunker on the other side if I don't make a bunker on the other how do I see what is happening on the other side military logic is always kite you always fight and you always look at this thing they also understand that nobody is going to be here and make a bunker which is behind this so a very simple order was passing East income nobody would be allowed to touch our defense works and we had an incident sometime in 2008 where a Chinese patrol had come just like they come now 60 strong led by a major or Chinese Army and they had been emboldened by you know bringing down this bunker and they came and started you know holding the wire which was laid in front of one of our localities the graders unit nine Canadians new take it out they said this is new wire take it out this will not be allowed this young officer captain who is the looking after that particular post she got up walked up


after that particular post she got up walked up to this major very politely got hold of his hand politely caught that okay took it away looked into his eyes and said if you touch it next time I'll shoot you I think he said it very firmly but very quietly without any provocation but the message was conveyed by his eyes you're not supposed to carry them okay I'm not okay whatever it is that Patrol went back they haven't come to that location till now right okay now this messaging is very important especially with China if you go through all their things whether they fought in Korea or they fought in they took part in Vietnam they took part in various things go through that and you will find messaging is very very important they also do messaging you have to do your messaging look at this and no more sorry and I think we are doing it right so I'm going to um quote you in 2021 you said uh China has transgressed many times over the years uh with its


transgressed many times over the years uh with its own perception of the Lac none of you come to know how many times we have transgressed as per our perception Chinese media doesn't cover it let me assure you if China has transgressed 10 times we must have done it about 50 times now was that bravado on your part to say this Rahul Gandhi wanted you sacked in 2021 we will not talk about Rahul Gandhi at all but let me no I am going to talk about it let me let me explain what happens this is a the line of control is based on a 1959 map which it was a map as big as one page of a small book can you interpret that line on ground now when you make an attempt to interpret it on ground you will find it is cutting across various things it is not following what you will follow as a border it is neither following a Ridgeline nor is it following a river line there's no logic to it it's just a


line there's no logic to it it's just a line So based on that the line of actual control which came into being because they had occupied to a certain area and based on this when the unilateral so-called universities fire took place they went back to what they considered as their area and a line of actual control came into being the perceptions will differ if there's a mountain he will say no it's supposed to be I'm supposed to be here but when we look at the line we'll say No it should be here now this perceptual differences will remain because it has not been demarcated on a map and authenticated by both the sides unlike the line of control with Pakistan yeah so in his perception he'll come to a particular area and if we are not there up to that area he sits because our patrolling limits are different as laid down by whosoever was in the government at that particular period of time at times you will sit down all you'll say this is my area similarly


down all you'll say this is my area similarly we will go to those areas which we think is our as per our perception we may encounter them we may not encounter them we we may have a Face-Off where you'll say okay go back and all that and we'll both Stand and Show each other banners and ultimately as per the agreement both sides will go back but they have been taking son they've been doing salami slicing and taking away that's what I'm saying that that's what I'm saying that as per our perception we also go up to our perception he also tries to come up to his perception unfortunately when he comes up to his perception that gets reported we are not going to tell you if we are in the army look here I went there that's my perception that's my area I've gone into my area I'm not going to gone into his area so that is the difference we were talking you were talking about how this young Captain responded to this Chinese aggression now


this young Captain responded to this Chinese aggression now coming to the ongoing standoff sir you think uh we have dealt it in a way it should have been dealt with or more could have been I think we are dealing with it perfectly fine right from girl one onwards the and now now it is not it's not a question of uh trying to find faults as a question of following the principle I think we are following the principle right what we consider is our area as our area nobody has a right to get into it and accordingly our thinking must change that way that the other side is hell bent upon showing presence where which they think is their area if they find there's nobody they would like to come and sit down there and take advantage of it so we we need to be vigilant about it and we must ensure that we are firm about it and I am sure when we are firm about it things happen there's certainly what happens is along the line of control the


what happens is along the line of control the certain areas which are endemic they are the dis divided into two parts one is disputed area like in the middle sector you have then there are sensitive areas he's been saying this in my area we have been saying this is our area it is sensitive either where our people are Longview sensitive area so accordingly your responses are you don't want to unnecessarily create a flash point but you want to be firm to say this is awesome this will remain ours so that is the general awareness post this Galvan standoff and then we also started building up in a major manner you must have seen in the change in lay and the right up to the Border earlier from lay to chuchul it was in between there were very few camps now it is entirely covered with military camps everywhere there is Army things have changed now we also had during the peak of this conflict we also had this that weapons will be carried everywhere and if there is a


will be carried everywhere and if there is a requirement we will shoot you think this change was required to uh to strengthen the mindset of our soldier also and to give them a Stern warning that you cross over it is again it is messaging the message is clear we are not going to get pushed over I think that is all that is done and messaging can be in many ways it can be in terms of your firm action it it can be in terms of ensuring that nobody comes in it is also ensuring that look here this far and not further many things that happen and where Eastern ladakh is concerned he has been violative of certain understandings and agreements of the type of troop strength that he's been bringing into that area so in in their case hierarchy being what it is if they are told no no let's have a show of force let's let's uh uh do things which will show Indian poor light in the world and they should understand our prover says China they


and they should understand our prover says China they have this feeling that it was necessary that we also have etiquette strength and wherewithal so tell them look here don't we are not going to be pushed over and I think we proved it the opposition in the country still says that India has become a pushover and the enemy always takes advantage of the time of the week the weak spot like when India was battling with covet galwan happens and now next year we're going to be going into India is going to be going into an election now China doesn't understand it they don't have elections they don't have political upheavals and everything Army is not going to realize that's what I was going to ask you is going to do its job and I think they'll they have understood very clearly is what what is to be done that I think that message is absolutely clear and uh where opposition is concerned firstly they don't know what what is happening they just put two and


what what is happening they just put two and two together there are some of them only follow what the Chinese are saying or what the propaganda tries to say so be it and then you you can't you can't change them and whatever is telling you on how how things can go in a particular manner they see there are times when you you go to back to 86 happened okay they came and occupied it because they said no what you call sundrons who is not this sundrons what did we do we occupied all the heights around it they were below us and we were our reactions were fast a couple of months after this I think about two months after we would occupy the heights they had two people who shot themselves they were so they didn't know what what is happening in the middle of nowhere they see you know all the heights are covered by Indian army where do they go they were they were in a bad shape so they started suicides out there this is end of


so they started suicides out there this is end of 86 when they had their their roots are cut off you would you you can feel miserable they have never been that way our soldiers are much more Hardy and ah whatever transpires you will find it is a complete by lot of propaganda from that side they feel that propaganda is what will scare the hell out of you you where you look at uh doklam you look at now Eastern ladakh oh and mostly this propaganda is picked up by some of our people and this oh this is what is going to happen they take sunzu very seriously we also we also take uh our own you know thinkers very seriously so I'm going to go over to 1990 uh you know when you got this youth Seva medal you were in Sri Lanka you were battling the ltte uh part of the Indian peacekeeping Force so tell us about that episode of your life it was uh uh okay what what had happened was that uh we had a


what had happened was that uh we had a post at a particular place called the company headquarters were there and they had a post uh a platoon post and the supplies had to be collected from there there was a in the week at various points we didn't fix day and time so two vehicles would go get their supplies and come back somehow over a period of about six months we had ensured that we followed our way of conducting uh counterinsurgency and counter terrorist operations we had denied LTT entry into all the villages and all the townships they were segregated from people it wrinkled them and it wrinkled them so much that ultimately they had to and whenever they came they they had casualties and and what rank was were you at that time uh I was a lieutenant colonel I was second in command for one year and I was a company Commander for one year we stayed two years in as part of ipk we had very successful operations in terms of not only tackling


very successful operations in terms of not only tackling the Menace of what the LTT was doing and also building trust with people that was the most important part I mean you can imagine that when we left for almost 25 kilometers people had lined up the road not because we told them on their own they didn't want us to go there was no enemy sir in that way it is an Insurgency of fighting it's not a uniformed uh enemy like you in 71 that you were finding there was no enemy here so you're not I mean you are trained of course in the Forge but how difficult was it to do that it is it was very difficult it is very difficult more difficult than fighting a uniform anymore it is very very difficult because you don't know you had various groups there were some who were friendly to us and you had a predominant group with its own one or two allies who who wanted predominance in everything and uh I think at some level and which is what I


I think at some level and which is what I have tried to also put down in my autobiography that at some level in the highest level we fail to understand that agreement between the government of India and the government of Sri Lanka did not include LTT yeah there's no agreement between LTT and government of India or between LTT and the government of Sri Lanka so you left a vacuum which slowly depending on how things were going and there were many things that happened which resulted in pravachan deciding that I think let's take it out on the Indian army so we become targets I mean in the area that we were even before the actual hostilities broke out they had planted a mine which they activated and our CEO's vehicle was targeted he was like he's lucky only the engine part went away he survived he survived but we ensured that we kept the people with us and that is what made a difference right so in this particular thing they sent a team from jaffna


this particular thing they sent a team from jaffna to shore up the locals and to learn ambush and they identified these two locations because in a week some point of time these vehicles will go they were depending on the supplies and on a particular day they ambushed unfortunately for them there was only one vehicle these people are moved only with one vehicle so we lost four people in that and uh you were there when this happened I I was with the Battalion headquarters at that time when we went and searched that area we found uh you know thing written for duty this Ambush party had been there for three days and three nights hiding in the jungle so they were giving duties to see when the vehicle comes so on that little flap of the secret thing there was a a duty roaster and we found that there were six names out of this which belong to our area ultimately we had to uh find out where they were so are I'll say precursor of intelligence work started we were able


say precursor of intelligence work started we were able to get information it required networking it required confidence winning and it required a certain amount of cash in enemies on the western sector on the Eastern sector you've been in LTT which enemy was the one that you thought that oh my God this is an enemy all enemies are same have to be eliminated they ultimately you have to you have to protect your people from them right the reason I'm asking sir is because you know at one once you commented about General Musharraf uh you said uh as a military commander I would commend general musharra for coming 11 kilometers inside Indian Territory to stay with his troops for a night it is the courage of a military commander that he came so far knowing that there was danger this was Cargill time you still think that that as a military commander he was he was the he was the chief at that time he planned this operation he had to win the trust of the people whom he was


to win the trust of the people whom he was putting out there and uh for him to ensure that everything moved without we getting a hint I think we should at least give him that due it wasn't foolhardy you think Daniel's up see a lot of times as a military commander you do things because you want the confidence of your people as a lieutenant colonel I have gone in operations when I was second in command I shouldn't have gone I should have said oh I am I'm a left in kernel it's foolhardy yes it is foolhardi but what is important is the people whom you command must understand that you will be with them come what way you're not going to hide behind your rank and or other things that's why I said for person to come 11 kilometers inside and stay with the troops for a night okay it was foolhardy the entire exercise was fuladi not just the not that yes was itself without a game plan in mind without taking the money game plan what


plan in mind without taking the money game plan what game plan sir let me tell you go into the issue where the kashmir's two Kashmir issue as a issue was in the World Arena it isn't Cold Storage we had succeeded the line of control was stable nothing was happening and mind you this particular area of Cargill the line of control runs almost in a straight line along the ridge line almost a straight line anybody sitting on the line of control is actually violating it it is not being violated everything was okay now here is a Pakistani commander who decides I must break this long Jam what did he do full Hardy yes we can call it anything but he ignited the Kashmir issue all over again and probably that is what his aim was had he succeeded had he succeeded it would have created a major issue where we are concerned you know dominating our national highway and all the traffic between Srinagar and lay right and that will be we must give it to fortitude and


that will be we must give it to fortitude and bravery and uh of our people that we ensured that they were thrown out thrown out so um about the agneepath scheme you have defended it also you come from a Fuji family your father grandfathers your uncles five of your uncles if I'm not mistaken my father was had six brothers all of them were in the army I mean which includes my father all six Indians Three Sisters their husbands in the army uh my both my grandfathers from mother's side and Father's Side both in the Army so it was basically uh you had no option as far as career is concerned no it was my father my father had option we tried his best but my mind had no option right now tell me sir that lots of people are saying that with this agneepath scheme those your kind of families which which automatically sent the second third generation into the forge they will rethink and they will not send their children because it's I don't think so


send their children because it's I don't think so uh and I'll I'll put it across differently it's just about not even a year the batches are just about getting trained and going and let me tell you the training establishments are same which drain people otherwise they're going to put in their best and this material is going to be very very motivated material who have come now some may not be some may be already looking at it okay that's a more lucrative options but where the Army is concerned it will find selection to be tough you will find that people would be so good and it is also going to fulfill another thing which the Army has been wanting for a very long time lateral induction we've been talking about it for many many many many years nobody has agreed otherwise it was very simple proposition that was there earlier look here let a person serve for five ten six whatever number of years you decide when you're still young and let him literally transfer into border security Force into


and let him literally transfer into border security Force into crpf into cisf into police so you have a trained person already trained in the in the in the value in the values that are required and you then don't have to do separate recruitments to select for your this thing except for ah non-combatant staff that is what army has been asking for so that you can retain a youthful uh profile in some way it is actually going to bring in that now let's see what happens when they complete four years okay I I for one would look at it very optimistically that it'll be very difficult to select just 25 percent these people will be so good okay I mean it is like uh if you know first couple of women entry schemes that came they were so motivated they were so good that it was very difficult to actually find fault is not so today there's a difference okay almost since I've been talking to you I have to ask you this would you categorize me as a prostitute when


this would you categorize me as a prostitute when you talked about journalists see this word has emanated from a very eminent journalist in the USA and he said that whatever may be the worth of a journalist ultimately it is governed by what the owner wants right if owner says it has to be done this particular way just to be done that and he says when the pen is taken over by the grid for money things will go different that's how this word emanated and that's the history of this word we have found many in various shades who will do exactly what uh this American journalist visualize so in a particular this thing I have to use this word because somebody who was unnecessarily going on and on in a particular manner which was which did not to show a journalist in an independent journalistic manner okay and let me also tell we have grown up in an era where all the movies that one saw a journalist was shown as a social reformer a person who took up


shown as a social reformer a person who took up social causes a person who took up causes for people most of the time he was being depicted as somebody who was not very well off carried a bag always you know fighting against the uh establishment that has changed right today you do find that there are people who take up causes because it benefits somebody rather than the society so didn't you find those kind of people even in the Forge they're everywhere did you blame them also did you disable them I did my blame is not just for one one this thing anybody who's uh morals and writings and work is taken over by Greed for something and that greed may not be money but I've never seen you using this kind of term for a politician and I mean you've been betrayed even in politics by people it is applicable to everybody unfortunately a politician otherwise is also seen badly that's the problem I mean when I used to talk when I was uh when I decided


used to talk when I was uh when I decided that I must get Anna hazare back to where he was in 2012 when I gave him the glass of juice to break his fast after that he was dumped and that rankled me do many things Uncle me unfortunately so I went to him towards the end of 2012 when I told him I want to get you back so it made a small organization called jantantra mocha I told him this is what we will do I said I'll talk about systemic change and you talk about your corruption part we carried that way to many states and in that my thing used to be let's get more people into political system who don't have a political background then only we'll be able to change the system I don't know what people used to say why are you asking us to do this now that is unfortunately how politics is perceived so right do you want to continue in politics or do you feel that see I am I came into politics Not


feel that see I am I came into politics Not By Design I I just happened to wander into it because I had only one aim in mind I must do something for the society that one short serve when you stood on that Podium with uh Prime Minister Modi in rewadi everybody was like that changed a perception completely you know everybody was thinking I'm going to join the party yeah I didn't in fact people of bhatijanta party were there he said useless of joining here I said I didn't come to join I came as a ex serviceman to talk about the exercise this is the rally of EX servicemen but you endorsed without saying anything you endorsed him at that moment it made a lot of difference see he was already endorsed by the party there was the third day of after having been endorsed as the PM and uh believe you me in nine nine years he has done a tremendous job my endorsement was not wrong you're going to stand for election again in I will


you're going to stand for election again in I will you will I will because there's so much of work left in ghaziabad ghaziabad that I saw in 2014 has changed but there's more changes that are required I I just took upon myself that I must change ghaziabad and uh I think uh the change is visible today but I think there are many more things that have to be done to make it a city worth living in NCR that's it things have changed yes for the better I mean ghaziabad doesn't have the same image now okay and it needs some more push right if I was to calculate the amount of money from various projects that has been done I love to actually sit down and work it out so it's going to be your Metro coming you've got a the first uh rapid drill transistor transit system of the country is coming up through ghaziabad to meerut and we are hoping that the first phase will start very soon right Air Services started from there there are hiccups for a


Services started from there there are hiccups for a certain thing but a lot more to be done not more to be done the road Network coming up there are many things which are more planned which will make things even better and that would bring in many much more industry in a particular area which will make a difference to the lives of people right thank you so much stuff for speaking with us and I hope your uh perception of our journalist improves after this podcast my perception was never bad okay don't worry my perception was never bad about journalists it is just that when one identified somebody who's who seemed to be motivated uh uh in his writings and his sayings for a particular thing don't use that word right otherwise okay on that note so thank you so much thank you very much thank you thank you thank you very much for watching or listening to this podcast do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste foreign foreign [Music]


to deal with the very difficult situation that accompanies China's rise in the indo-pacific and at the moment the the best candidate for that has is a Democratic president the uh Republicans have been a bit more pro-trade the Democrats a little less so but they're really pretty much the same now they're neither party is pursuing a Free Trade Agreement the desire amongst U.S policy makers both Republican and Democratic to have a stronger strategic relationship with India that historically there was a sense that the Republicans were looking to the U.S India relationship more it was George Bush that really brought that U.S India strategic partnership was a sentence perhaps that that the Democrats were were more focused on internal things within India my regret is that the bite Administration has come in and has continued that policy of not wanting to join the CP TPP and has really put trade off on the side Washington is looking to New Delhi as a critical partner and Washington is very eager to see India take a bigger role on the global stage this episode


take a bigger role on the global stage this episode has been filmed at the rice Cena dialogue held in New Delhi in March 2023 Republicans Or democrats who's better for India that is the topic with the U.S going in for elections in 2024 just as we in India this topic is very pertinent as there is a general consensus in both capitals and a bipartisan consensus in DC especially that despite significant differences bilateral cooperation is beneficial to both countries my guest today Martin Raza senior fellow and director technology and National Security Program Center for New American Security USA he has served as senior intelligence officer and Analyst at the CIA his area of expertise include emerging Technologies weapons research and development and counter-terrorism Leslie vinjamuri director U.S and America's program Dean Queen Elizabeth Academy for leadership in international Affairs Chatham House UK Leslie is a member of the Council of foreign relations and is on the advisor Board of the lse ideas and Ambassador Kenneth juster needs no introduction in India he


Kenneth juster needs no introduction in India he was the U.S ambassador to India and has held various posts in the U.S government including in the National Security Council and the National Economic Council currently Ambassador juster is a distinguished fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations USA thank you gentlemen thank you ma'am for being part of the podcast I'd like to begin with you Ambassador juster you have over 40 years experience in government Service public policy and you served as U.S ambassador to India from 2017 to 2021. you recently said that frictions and frustrations limit the potential of U.S India trade ties could you elaborate on that well when I was Ambassador of my commercial counselor said to me about trade between the United States and India it's never been better and in a sense he was right that it's gone up every year as far as I can remember when I first began worked on the relationship in 2001 the bilateral trade was about 19 billion dollars uh last year I believe was over


billion dollars uh last year I believe was over 160 billion dollars were in that neighborhood so it clearly has increased steadily and yet at the same time for the world's largest economy the United States and its fifth largest economy India I don't think it's filling fulfilling its potential and indeed we've tried over a number of years to resolve various trade frictions and we still can't do it in certain areas and agricultural areas and the like and I'd love to see us ultimately have a free trade agreement but we haven't gotten there so the trade relationship has grown tremendously there are a lot of natural ties between us and yet at the same time I think it has a fair amount of potential still to fulfill what about the security dialogue do you think that that has uh there are roadblocks in that too now look this all aspects of relationship have grown incredibly over the last 22 years if you step back and see where we were 22 years ago and where we are


where we were 22 years ago and where we are today it's extraordinary we discussed every issue of human endeavor and security and trade or two of the big ones and they both have grown and security also remember we're not allies indeed in the United States are strategic Partners but we've enhanced our security ties over the years India has now purchased over 20 billion dollars of U.S equipment we have military exercises across a range of our services when I was Ambassador began the first try Services exercise called tiger Triumph and we have talks about a whole range of issues so this is a a process of steady Improvement and really greater comfort and we've seen that both in the bilateral relationship and how we work together in the quad in other ways as well so what what are the roadblocks we still don't have a U.S ambassador in India for two years now well I don't think that's a roadblock in the relationship I think the relationship has continued to prosper and we just were at a uh


to prosper and we just were at a uh a press meeting with the secretary of state and uh the minister of external Affairs along with their Australian uh and Japanese counterparts and you could say it's a very strong relationship obviously I have a bias in saying that having an ambassador on the ground can only enhance it further there are a lot of things that a good Ambassador can do you're have a 10 and a half hour time difference between our two countries an ambassador can really understand the Nuance of a government's positions the different personalities but people in and outside of government say and also communicate to India the Nuance that's coming out of Washington so it helps enhance Communications and to deal on a day-to-day basis with issues that at the ministerial level you can only engage on episode quickly and not as regularly Mr gazelle come to you you worked in the CIA and in various capacities in Counter Intelligence Ministry of Defense in your view are there differences in perception about India


your view are there differences in perception about India among Democrats and Republicans no I'd say overall the desire amongst U.S policy makers both Republican and Democratic to have a stronger strategic relationship with India that that is across the board there's some fringes in each party that may think differently about that but if you look at who the real decision makers are you know India is extremely important and Americans generally desire to have that partnership be as strong as possible and in the broader context that commitment to a free and open Indio indo-pacific is absolutely there so Washington is looking to New Delhi as a critical partner and Washington is very eager to see India take a bigger role on the global stage so is there a baptism view about the view is that the Democrats view India with suspicion I wouldn't say that at all if you look at secretary blinken's visit here for example at the rezina dialogue and for the G20 Gathering the United States uh the Democratic party has a very strong


United States uh the Democratic party has a very strong desire to engage with India and that is not a partisan issue in Washington it's very much bipartisan even in National Security matters absolutely much of the desire to engage with India is of course tied to the dynamic of arising China and what that then means for the indo-pacific as a whole and the uh attitude and approach toward China there's strong bipartisan consensus on what that should look like so regardless of who the president is regardless of who controls the house or Senate you should expect a broad continuation of U.S India policy so we've already mentioned China right they're 10 minutes into the show and China is in the room so Mrs as a U.S policy expert who's based in UK I think you are right I am at Chatham House at Chatham house so how do you see India U.S relations you see it when you see it from the outside do you see there's an improvement do you see there's bipartisan as uh Martin said


do you see there's bipartisan as uh Martin said or is it um is it something that you know it's in fits and starts I I actually say uh to my Chatham House colleagues a lot to my students I teach it so as that from my point of view this is the most most interesting relationship to watch and India's obviously one of the most important countries to watch the in the UK you know the UK as as we know has a very long history uh with India and you know some of that is patchy and some that's very you know there are multiple views around that history but but it has clearly created very deep ties and very deep understanding and a strong relationship so I think for the UK watching the U.S India relationship grow has been largely positive I suspect that at times there's a bit of a concern that perhaps the UK could be on the outside of that but overall and it certainly comes back to the question of of security and stability and a concern of course for the


and stability and a concern of course for the rise of China what that means for the region is gone hand and glove with increased significance that's paid to India and I think that's why we see more bipartisanship I mean I think you're right that historically there was a sense that the Republicans were looking to the U.S India relationship more it was George Bush that really brought that U.S India strategic partnership to the fore that has secured that deal and there was a sense perhaps that that the Democrats were more focused on internal things within India that I think has changed and I think that's certainly uh that that is not where the Biden Administration is that that focus on having a very strong relationship with India as a leading partner strategically placed as a democracy as a very populist country the most uh the largest country I don't know if we've crossed that point but we're all told we will cross that point sometime in the very near future and so there's no getting around it but I


future and so there's no getting around it but I think there is something very special very unique about two very large very diverse very complex democracies that are strategic security partners and a global level but obviously in the region India is just extremely important for the US so there's also this view that uh you know the about democracies that India is this large and noisy and sometimes unwieldy and difficult to understand uh democracy things don't function like in the like the democracies of the West uh so when that happens is it difficult to Fathom that it takes time for relationships to go forward when there are change of governments especially in the you know in the frequency that one has seen in UK uh especially that yeah I mean if you look at all three of these democracies uh the UK the US India it will be very hard for any one of them to be too critical of um turbulence in the other because certainly in the U.S during the years that Donald Trump was President there


U.S during the years that Donald Trump was President there was a tremendous amount of turbulence but let's be honest there's been a lot of turbulence across the history of the United States across multiple Dimensions um the UK has you know been exceptional on on this Dimension uh in in the the last quarter of the last calendar year and certainly you know India is a complex and I used to say noisy and sometimes difficult to figure out how things work but I think there's a sense in which that's familiar to a lot of people in the U.S that I don't think that's you know there's a lack of Harmony of course America's very um diverse but if you you know the other thing I would add here is that there are as we know a lot of Indians in America some of them are Indian some of them are Americans they're doing extremely well if you look at median household income in the United States broken down by ethnic group Indian Americans are at the very very top of


group Indian Americans are at the very very top of the league so they're prosperous they're successful they're hard working and they're Linked In right they are now Americans and integrated so that cultural affinity and understanding is one that continues to grow and you know we we may well soon have um India an indian-american uh woman um vying for the U.S candidacy and you know in the Republican party I'm going to come to that uh a message after you've interacted with the Indian Community Indian American Community uh when you were Ambassador um what role can the diaspora play to ensure that there is a bipartisan support towards India whether Republican Administration or democrat Administration well let me first step back and comment briefly on the bipartisan nature of the relationship s has been said you know there's a lot of polarity in the United States on a range of issues but one issue where there's great consensus is on the U.S India relationship and there's several reasons for this first there's been a core of people


for this first there's been a core of people on both sides of the island of work worked on this relationship for the last 20 years and we talked to each other regardless of party and we share our thoughts and ideas and we solicit ideas from from each other so in that sense there's been a certain glue there have been perceptions that you mentioned as to why one party may be a little different than not than the other and I can mention a few of the nuances that may be slightly different but I don't think they affect the overall stability of the relationship on trade often in the past the Republicans have been a bit more pro-trade the Democrats a little less so but they're really pretty much the same now they're neither party is pursuing a free trade agreement on energy the Republicans have been more willing to share oil and gas and coal in addition to Renewables that's been a little more focused on Renewables on the Republican side on human rights the Republicans have chosen to discuss these


on human rights the Republicans have chosen to discuss these issues more quietly sometimes some members of Congress from the Democratic side have been a little more vocal about these issues and even on Pakistan you saw in the last Administration a more vocal break with Pakistan that I think was appreciated in India that you don't see as as visibly in this one but those are nuances and the bottom line is that the consensus is very strong in favor of this relationship overall I also wanted to go into the Ukrainian conflict just before you know because uh that's what President Biden in a tough spot because to accept India's stand I guess you know from the National Security perspective the pressure on President Biden would be tremendous to pressurize India to take a stand one way or the other well again you have to remember as I mentioned earlier India in the United States are strategic Partners we don't agree on every single issue and while the United States would have liked to see India take a more vocal position on a


to see India take a more vocal position on a crisis in Ukraine and we also understand the history and the intertwined relationship that India has had with the Soviet Union later Russia over time it's tremendous dependence on Russian spare parts because it has a majority of its military equipment from Russia and it's facing China on its northern border with Russian equipment and it needs its assistance there and its desire not to see Russia pushed any closer to China than it has to be and to keep open a wedge that it can have in its relationship with Russia so that's an issue where we understand our disagreements but we can talk about them openly and it doesn't prevent us from cooperating across a range of other areas and as Miss minjumuri said about the Indian diaspora you've interacted with them I think they played a tremendously important role it's often been said that Nations don't have friends they just have interests but I think in the U.S India relationship we have friends


I think in the U.S India relationship we have friends too because there are over 4 million Indian Americans in the United States they're close to a million uh Americans that live in India these are often children that are born of Indian couples in the United States they're U.S citizens and they bring a tremendous uh glue it's almost the secret sauce of the relationship and I think they play a very positive role overall and I think that's one of the distinguishing features perhaps in the U.S India bilateral relationship from what you see in other countries now again the interests of the country's coincide with that and that plays an important role but there's a good feeling there's a level of trust and it's grown over the years as the size of the diaspora Community has grown and the role that diaspora Community plays in the United States is tremendous in terms of leadership in the technology industry in terms of people in politics you mentioned Nikki Haley Kamala Harris it's quite astounding and even doctors


Harris it's quite astounding and even doctors and lawyers and leaders of their communities so it's a very important positive part of the relationship you know I'll come to you um uh Mr NASA you know he uh uh Ambassador Justin mentioned uh Nikki Haley she did uh during her presidential bid she may not win but she did say that America needs to recognize I'm paraphrasing America needs to recognize who are the Allies who are the friends and she mentioned Pakistan and that Aid should not go towards Pakistan why does America continue to see Pakistan as an ally in the fight against Terror well that has a long-standing history right that goes back decades now at this point um but I think Miss Haley's comments do reflect a change in thinking about how American political leaders are thinking about international relations more broadly now I don't know the specific context of the remarks that she made so I wouldn't want to comment much further on that but overall I do see it as reflective of how America's leaders are looking


it as reflective of how America's leaders are looking at the world in different ways and why I think also this strong bipartisan desire for a stronger partnership with India is there right it's a different way of looking at the world probably different than um what people here in India still think about how Americans look at the world it's a different time now it's starting to interrupt if it's the political yes what would the the intelligence sector the National Security the media the think tanks what about them do they still see Pakistan do they still hyphenate India with Pakistan do you think no I think that's starting to shift and again you know the US government is in a monolith right so there's going to be a range of opinions on this and certain departments and agencies might have different perspectives but I'd say broadly speaking you uh U.S leaders are looking at India differently so it's not always coupled to Pakistan it's it's people recognize that India is a very important Dynamic actor and a country that is


a very important Dynamic actor and a country that is poised for Global Leadership it's not a regional matter anymore people are looking to New Delhi to step up on the global stage as a rising economy the most populous nation on the planet and a country that's frankly uh poised for a completely different role in the world than it has played in the past uh I'll move to you uh you know for 50 years since India's independence there were three presidential visits we had uh Eisenhower Nixon and Jimmy Carter and then 23 years they're five presidential visits uh and President Biden hasn't found the time as yet but I guess kovitz during his uh tenure and uh so who do you think is a better president for India in your view a Republican or a Democrat I think that the better president is going to be a president who is very clearly focused on um taking forward America's Global role working consistently methodically seriously diligently on a daily basis with the most important countries in


on a daily basis with the most important countries in the world to to manage free exchange it's not entirely free anymore there's a lot of complications around open trade but certainly to ensure stability predictability on the global economy side to to deal with the very difficult situation that accompanies China's rise in the indo-pacific and at the moment the the best candidate for that has is a Democratic president because a Republican party is in disarray internally it hasn't really managed to yet identify an unofficial leader and we're now going to look to see who their official candidate will be who really has the eye their eye on the ball of Foreign Relations so that's the number one criteria from my point of view um it's sort of less important whether they are Republican or a Democrat it's more whether they are really clearly focused on on America's Global role and and I think we we've seen some problems on the past in terms of the visits I mean you know President Biden hasn't yet turned up to India


know President Biden hasn't yet turned up to India but his secretary of state just spoke here at the ryzena dialogue there are many Americans who have been in and out of India and will continue to be that's a very clear signal that this Administration places extreme importance on the U.S India relationship I anticipate their will I'm sure it's not something I would be privileged to know uh be a visit by the president um but as as we look ahead I think the question is less whether there will be if there were to be a Republican president in the next round it's less whether that President would continue to value and invest in the India relationship um because I think they would it's more whether they can whether the the party the Republican party will come together will coalesce um and will have the governance capacity to look Beyond America's borders in a really consistent and clear and serious way and right now um that's what I would be worried about if I were in India who's gonna who was the


I were in India who's gonna who was the best leader going to be which party is set up to govern I must adjust to yeah I have a slight modification first of all I think there have been a number of Presidential visits starting really with Bill Clinton's at the end of his term then George W bush came Barack Obama came twice Donald Trump came and President Biden is scheduled to come for the G20 Summit uh in September they've all been significant visits they've all continued to elevate the relationship and focused attention on it they've all led to what's called action forcing events of additional accomplishments getting done and I do think that while there may be an uncertainty T now who's going to be the Republican nominee there is a strong consensus within the Republican Party about the importance of this relationship you see it on the hill you see it in members of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and part of it is that this region the indo-pacific has really become the center of gravity of international Affairs


really become the center of gravity of international Affairs and dealing with a range of changes including the rise of China and that builds the consensus about the importance of Japan of Australia or of India of the Quad of what happens in this region of Americans America's commitment to it and I think we've seen that on both sides of the aisle I think that will continue there's always uncertainty as to what the future holds and who might be the nominee for either party but I think there's a pretty strong consensus across both that while some areas may be more contentious than others this is one where people generally think there's a lot at stake and a lot to be gained by a strong U.S India relationship you want to interject yeah no I mean I I don't disagree with that but I again I will come back to the to you know my view would be what happens in the U.S India relationship is is connected first to you know the ability to govern consistently and and clearly um


ability to govern consistently and and clearly um but it's also connected to what what the US does outside of India but within the region so um the leader uh as such as he or she is needs to have a clear and consistent approach to China to asean to North Korea South Korea I mean there this has got to be one probably the most complex and highly consequential regions the in the world I think that's stating the obvious um and so what happens in the U.S India relationship can't really be evaluated in isolation it has to be taken in the round and there I think um I think we did see inconsistency and disruption and some instability in U.S policy across the region that didn't that doesn't necessarily facilitate that focus on on building a strong relationship with India so you know again I think that there are problems in the Republican party we will see where it goes but those will inevitably have an impact on the ability to have a very strong and effective foreign policy if


to have a very strong and effective foreign policy if I could again just slightly disagree uh I think people have to distinguish between some of the surface remarks and what actually is happening on the ground and I recognize that the last administration had some tumultuous elements to it but it was the last Administration that came out and clearly helped establish the concept of the indo-pacific something that was originally put forward by former prime minister Abe of Japan but really endorsed strongly by the United States we worked with Japan to revive the quad in 2017 and had ministerial meetings in person during covid in 2020 and then also in 2019 and we launched many of the things that this current Administration by Administration has elevated and moved forward on so I think that you have to separate what may be some of the surface to Malt with actually the substance of what is driving the policy and as I said I think if you look at a lot of the things that are happening today uh they really have


things that are happening today uh they really have their Roots back and things that happened in the last Administration and I think are going to persist in the next Administration and actually it just continues if we keep going backwards it it goes right to the George Bush era it's the one two three deal it's the nuclear deal that kind of set the path going and I don't think either President Obama or President Biden have shifted from that path which was laid by George Bush but would you agree with that um I do think that that that that path has that that deal was transformative and really set in motion of extremely important basis for the US India relationship I would I would though say that on the you know one of the biggest critiques of U.S policy and the region not just India but in the region more generally right now is that it doesn't have a very clear and strong economic strategy we know that there's the indo-pacific economic framework it it's got a long way to go a long way


it's got a long way to go a long way to travel will it what will it it will turn into is very far from Clear we know that the region is going forward with the CP TPP with rsep with any other number of Arrangements that the U.S is on the outside of um that was certainly not President Obama's intention he had a very clear vision of how you bring the region together with the U.S absolutely Central to its Economic Development um and that was reversed there are obviously and those the reasons for that do go much further back but nonetheless that was reversed um and and not taken forward by the last Administration and and now all successive administrations find themselves in a very difficult position um but but I do think that there could be a difference and this is where you know politics matter um on the the comment about headlines you know it's true the last Administration and obviously um uh the Ambassador was part of that very positive sort of moving things forward in a productive


very positive sort of moving things forward in a productive way but in the world of international diplomacy language matters words matter delivering stable and predictable and clear and serious math language at the highest levels matter because they send signals not only to governments some of whom are privy to the to the things that are happening below the radar but they send signals to people and to businesses and to societies about what they can trust what they can predict what they can plan on and I think that has a very important spillover effect so getting that diplomacy right matters maintaining it matters and and building some sort of economic strategy and right now it's not clear whether there's a partisan a political difference between the two parties on their ability to move forward an economic strategy a lot of that will depend on domestic politics in the in the next 12 months if I can just again add which I thought was a very good point on the trade problem regionally that both the United States and India have China has


that both the United States and India have China has been very aggressive and robust in its Regional strategy not only does it have great bilateral trade relations throughout Asia but it has led the regional comprehensive economic partnership agreement from which India withdrew after seven years of negotiations before signing that agreement and it is applied recently to join the high standards comprehensive and Progressive agreement on trans-pacific partnership as has been mentioned that was a an agreement that the Trump Administration withdrew from on day one quite unexpectedly to anyone else who knew about it in the administration or no one was aware of it and I think it was a strategic blunder because it really played into the hands of China and hurt the U.S my regret is that the bite Administration has come in and has continued that policy of not wanting to join the CP TPP and has really put trade off on the side even in the indo-pacific economic framework it has said that it will not be a traditional trade agreement and Market access


will not be a traditional trade agreement and Market access to the United States which is really critical for any Trade Agreement will not be granted so at this point I think both India and the United States not only don't have a bilateral agreement but they don't have a good Regional strategy and unfortunately trade has become a bit of a negative term on both sides of the United States it really even began during the campaign in 2016 when candidate Clinton who had earlier said the TPP was the gold standard sort of said she wasn't so sure she could go forward with it and then as I said president Trump abruptly withdrew and now it's not even on the table and I think this is a mistake for the United States on both sides of the aisle and it's going to hurt our relationships economically in the region and economics are so important to this region uh overall the last comment that I'm sorry to persist on this is I appreciate again the Trev turbulence that the Trump Administration


again the Trev turbulence that the Trump Administration created but I can tell you within India president Trump was extraordinarily popular yes among the most popular people and the relationship was extraordinarily positive there aren't a lot of countries that can say that but India is one of them and it was even witnessed by his appearing at Amanda by the stadium with over a hundred thousand people uh yes and the howdy Modi were like huge events when they happen uh I'm going to come into the final comments uh uh Mr razza as we wind up let's address China we've already spoken about China can India and the US even though we're going into election mode soon because next year elections in both countries and the experience India has is that foreign policy and Foreign Relations just go to the back seat when America goes to polls it's it's all about domestic issues then um so also in India probably but do you agree that India and U.S need to set aside those compulsions the imperfections in the relationship to deal


compulsions the imperfections in the relationship to deal with China now well I would say one immediate domestic issue that both countries can partner on is uh countering election disinformation so China is increasingly aggressive when it comes to misinformation campaigns more generally but I would expect particularly given that both countries have general elections coming up next year that both India and the United States will be on the receiving end of significant election disinformation campaign so let's start thinking about how New Delhi and Washington can collaborate on on mitigating the impact of that and ideally preventing those attacks from happening altogether so tremendous opportunity for cooperation there another area and please elaborate on this because yeah I think you know the media is and you know being from the media we are victims of this misinformation campaigns which come from random places and you're an expert on this uh so could you tell us how it can be taken forward well absolutely so it all starts with information sharing right um so the United States and recent


information sharing right um so the United States and recent election Cycles has dealt with significant disinformation campaigns so there's Lessons Learned India has quite a bit of History itself right on being on the receiving end from Pakistan uh this information for example so having that dialogue comparing notes on what each country experienced then informs the types of cyber security practices and education of the the population on how to to deal with these issues coming up with a quick response fact-checking capability for example um and and we could partner with Taiwan on something like that for as well the digital Minister Audrey Tang in Taiwan has come up with a very robust mechanism to to deal with that issue in that country so again it lends itself well to a bilateral cooperation and could be expanded to the quad as well another area and and this is something that the foreign ministers mentioned earlier this morning is the cooperation in matters of Technology right we talked about how important the Indian diaspora is one thing that I want


the Indian diaspora is one thing that I want to emphasize is really making sure that people understand how important the Indian diaspora is for America's Innovation ecosystem you have a significant number of india-born and Indian Americans that are the founders of Technology startups you have a significant number of Indian Americans who are prominent Business Leaders in the tech industry for very large corporations and of course a tremendous uh Cadre of scientists and Engineers that are working in companies large and small through the quad and through the U.S India bilateral relationship this is an area where we can focus on the type of economic cooperation that to the ambassador's point is is kind of lacking right now and so using that as part of an election platform looking to the United States and the United States looking to India on how that type of collaboration can create jobs boost our economies make it more competitive and then that China Dynamic that of course plays a part of that so then we can start talking about well what are some


then we can start talking about well what are some investment restrictions that we should consider what are some export controls where we could align our our resources these are the types of discussions that I think would still work very well within an election season that if by and large will be domestically focused but those International elements directly feed into the concerns of Voters in both countries I moved to the political you know you were mentioning Nikki Haley and uh we there's Vivek ramaswamy also uh with more and more Indians or Indian Americans part of the political system uh do you think miss vijaburi that uh India will play a larger role in politics in uh in the US you know there's there's been a lot of thinking and research on this and I and one thing that and and the Ambassador might I'm sure will know more um but one thing that I'm hearing is that and that in fact Indian Americans are perhaps less focused on India which isn't to say that they're not engaged and that


to say that they're not engaged and that they don't um share their their wealth but um but they're very focused on the US they're very focused on their um lives their work their professional development and they are engaged in the US I don't think that means that that they don't help that it doesn't help the relationship but I'm not so sure that it's a direct transfer of you know focused on what's happening in politics in India or in the US India relationship I think it's more about culture and culture affinity and just getting into the psyche and the everyday experience of um non-indian Americans I myself am half Indian so this is deeply familiar to me but to those who aren't just having people who are prominent across all sectors of society and the economy and certainly in the public sphere in politics matters a lot for how Americans to sort of feel comfortable with and understand and Trust India and that is you know at a deeper level it's you know these relationships if you


deeper level it's you know these relationships if you think about the U.S UK relationship one of the strongest relationships in the world it's certainly not only about politics and policy it's about culture education shared history exchanges business intelligence all these things it's like multi-layered and so I think as you get more Indians becoming Americans or being born in America or living there for a period of time that that trust and that culture affinity and that sort of shared experience builds up and that will be in and has been and is becoming an even a very important base for us between the two countries absolutely uh Ambassador just a final comments you know we were talking about the hill and uh India has come in for criticism in the past two years uh on its domestic policies and uh but it seems like um National Security and uh economic interests have kind of overshadowed that criticism would you agree with that view well I think there are complex views about the U.S India relation ship and everyone doesn't view it


U.S India relation ship and everyone doesn't view it in the same manner I think overall it's very positive and people are very bullish on the security and the economic aspects of it as I mentioned earlier there are some people who are more focused and may be more critical about Democratic issues in both the United States and in India some believe that the best way to discuss those as uh secretary blanken said is candidly but quietly among friends others do it more publicly but that's part of being in democracies the two robust democracies in which debate and discussion is a significant part of it and so I don't think any one issue overshadows the relationship I think it's a relationship that covers a broad range of issues security and economics are among the most significant of it and if I could just add one or two points you know I was mentioning and I believe that not engaging regionally on a trade strategy is not as much an economic issue as it is a strategic issue because it's how


as it is a strategic issue because it's how China deals with the region I'm fully sensitive to the concerns about trade and how it's affected American manufacturing and the need to deal with some of these issues but we've still got to come up with a strategy to make the United States and India players in Regional economics and trade and I'm afraid that our concern about the trade component of it has hurt the Strategic component of it and then the final comment I'd make because I agree with the comments made about the Indian American diaspora and again they're not a unified group some people are more focused on the bilateral relationship some people are more focused on what's going on in the United States but I was struck when I was Ambassador one time when I met a governor of a state and she said to me at the end of the meeting her most important investment is in the United States her most significant and important investment and I was trying to think that she owned stock in which tech company this


think that she owned stock in which tech company this one that one said to me no my children and if you look at the number of children of senior officials from India in the United States it tells you something about the relationship the level of trust the importance that parties on both sides give to it and that cannot be minimized in my opinion but it's not something that one can makes a simple statements about or generalities a lot of it is you know India is a complex country the United States is and the relationship has its own complexities but it's very strong and very important thank you gentlemen thank you Miss benjamuri it's been a very interesting uh session and we get to know more about how the US sees India and how the Indians see America thank you so much thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you for watching or listening do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste foreign [Music]


the European Union right now is having this kind of I would say ambiguous comfortable line of action and policy towards China and in the case of a military attack on Taiwan the whole region are going to be blocked that would mean that you know people will go on the streets it is true that in Europe in general you know Asia has been very very far away you know to the point we have been so much mixed up with our own internal issues that even our neighborhood even in North Africa which is very close to us we are not really following very well what is happening the European Union is very it's it's a very strange animal at least for the outside world it's difficult it's a complex the decision-making process the division of labor between institutions the competences between States and and Brussels it's it's difficult we the two actors the one is the biggest Democratic democracy law another is the can actually merge forces not necessarily to launch a new non-alignment movement but to go a third way that create credible


movement but to go a third way that create credible counterweight to Binary choices massive division in in Europe between the countries who are who feel that they're directly exposed to the to Russia perceptions sometimes are more important than everything else in international relations but we should not be led by perceptions only this crisis of around the Ukraine of the war within Ukraine it's a very serious one and we need to talk to each other welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash this is being recorded at the rice Cena dialogue held in March 2023 in New Delhi today's topic for discussion is on the European Union its interests in the Asian region how has the Ukrainian conflict impacted on its foreign policy does it have any interest in the indo-pacific region the Dynamics with China has closer European integration come to an end and will we begin to see Power return to National capitals the speakers today Mr rui vinhas director general of foreign policy Portugal Ruiz held positions dealing with multilateral Affairs such


Ruiz held positions dealing with multilateral Affairs such as un and NATO he was the permanent representative to the political and security Committee of the EU in Brussels besides an illustrious diplomatic career he's also authored several articles on international relations and has been published in academic journals the Lena chakarova founder for a conscious experience f-a-ce or conducts strategic foresight and Trend analysis for the Austrian Ministry of defense and is an instructor at the real world risk Institute Tomi hotanen executive director the Wilfred Martin Center for European studies Finland hutanan's work focuses mainly on economic and social policy he's been political advisor for the Epp and has authored many articles thank you gentlemen thank you uh velina for joining me in this podcast I'll begin with rui uh what has why his foreign policy in the European Union been one of the least integrated elements foreign policies of individual states they're often competing and contrasting with each other in the European Union well uh well thank you for


in the European Union well uh well thank you for the invitation thank you for having me uh basically I mean it's it's it's very it's very simple I mean it's the core policy of a sovereign state I mean it's uh defense and foreign policy are two of the the main uh policies of of us in the in the quite the core of a sovereign state so uh the the treaties uh not yet as uh organized those policies as common policies of the European Union but still as a policies in which we need a consensus which which and the big uh the major strengths of those policies the foreign policy and defense is is precisely consensus in my view uh because the power of of the European Union is unity and to speak uh on behalf of the 27 I mean and but I think that we have our problems and the decision-making process is sometimes difficult the negotiation is hard but as you can see now in the in a probably the major crisis uh in Europe since uh since


probably the major crisis uh in Europe since uh since uh since its foundation at least in in security terms uh uh the European Union has been quite uh United in in very difficult and tough decisions like sanctions like uh supporting the military effort of the ukrainians so so it's it's possible and we can work on these basis and it's very successfully by the way in this crisis I I it's according to my experience it has been a very good example that uh but a discussion on going to a qualified majority instead of consensus is is there uh but we're still far from uh from a decision that will go through a revision of the treaties sitting in Asia we don't see that kind of sync synchronization as far as views are concerned in the EU on sanctions in China I will get to that but Tommy has a closer European integration uh is it as good as he's saying or do you think that it's ending and power is returning back to the National capitals so our assistant


returning back to the National capitals so our assistant assassin today is discussing about what binds Europe and I think it's interesting when we start to reflect on that is libit go back and and and to ask what what did originally by did bind European Union what what is binding today so originally as we know it was a result of this first and second world war the Europeans had killed each other tens of millions and considered that this needs to change and so the piece was the driving force in the European Union then decades passed and and there was maybe you know peace what became the new normality and and there was a search for new narrative and that narrative was Prosperity so purpose uh peace prosperity second p and and Europe was focusing on that on on trade no trade barriers a single Market uh creation of the Euro but then 2007 and 2008 they were in economic crisis again end this question came so what keeps the European Union together and now uh and and then we


European Union together and now uh and and then we had also brexit so the United Kingdom which India knows very well went went away but now currently we have found I could say to third B uh problem solving in global scale we have the climate change which obviously the Europeans understand that we need we cannot do it with 27 of us uh separately we have war in Ukraine the energy crisis all of all of that so that is now the new kind of I would say the new new reason to be together also with the war in Ukraine there's a lot of negative negative and sad aspects of that but really I think in that Europe is really has found a new new new new uh determination and maybe also Unity on on this issue and currently their development now really for the first wide time to create common for example military industry and really uh serious discussion for the very first time right um you spoke about the Ukrainian conflict and rui also mentions it um you know um though this broadcast


also mentions it um you know um though this broadcast is on Europe but you're seeing uh on the sidelines you're seeing that the US its allies can countries of the South they're engaged in this war of words when it comes to G20 and the meat especially with regard to the Ukrainian conflict even on sanctions though rui says that there is a Unity even on that between Eastern European Bloc and the Western European nations isn't there any kind of a conflict or rethink or um difference of opinion well I would say there's a kind of two levels first of all if you look to public opinions you know obviously so there's a massive division in in Europe between the countries who are who feel that they're directly exposed to the to Russia to the risk so it's an existential question so the discussion in public as fair is very different then you have those countries which do not have with some variation and for example in in Finland Nordic countries Baltic countries there's it's very clear they