responsibility because there is a strong civilization uh connection you know uh gaurav I'm going to uh quote from Mr dareshar's book which one quote which I found very interesting had flagged it I flagged several quotations in fact one I found very interesting where uh Pakistan's prime minister he was asked in the Constitution he asked in the constituent assembly in 1948 when Khan Abdul kafar Khan was present and he said is pathan the name of a country or that of a community and gaffar Khan replies is the name of a community and we will name the country and his son Wali Khan was asked if he was a Muslim or a Pakistani or a pashtoon first he replied that he he was a six thousand year old pashtoon a thousand-year-old Muslim and a 27 year old Pakistani you know I found this it is fascinating yeah it's also gut-wrenching identity you know all of us who live in the subcontinent in fact I I don't recall exactly who


subcontinent in fact I I don't recall exactly who it was who had once said that you know like a person who had a Bangladeshi passport you know like she says that at one point of time I had a Pakistani passport and before that I had an Indian passport this is a person who has lived through 1947 has lived through 1971 and now is a Bangladeshi I had interviewed her you know regarding a film which was made on India Bangladesh relations identities identity is so important and explain to me what it means to be a Pakistani and still not be in in uh in peace with one's identity you know like you mentioned about the pashtoons that pashtoons for uh six thousand years the Baloch have been saying the same thing you know they said that we are the inheritors of the marangarh civilization so they say balush for 10 000 years Muslims for 1200 years and Baloch and Pakistani for 75. so this is what the balotes say now Pakistan has always had a


what the balotes say now Pakistan has always had a very serious identity crisis because they chose to Define themselves in a certain Manner and that is the root cause of the problem in Pakistan Pakistan has always defined itself as we who are not India so all the linkages and this comes from Maulana also of the jamaat Islam it comes from that school of thought that you know uh there's a very interesting thing in in in uh in a book that I read long back uh that you know be as far away from a Hindu house that you cannot see the cooking smoke coming out of the chimney so that that was what was said so you remove yourself now how do you remove because because most of them have got Hindu ancestry and therein lies the confusion so you concoct forefathers who came with Muhammad bin qasim yes they geographically removed themselves absolutely but 711 A.D Mohammed bin qasim comes to sindhan fights against Raja dahir and my great great grandfathers


against Raja dahir and my great great grandfathers came with the army of Muhammad bin kasip and my great great grandfathers came from Central Asia or turkey or Iran etc etc now the thing is that you see and this is what is tearing Pakistan at the seams also amongst amongst a lot of other factors bajwa is a Sikh in Hindu name um he was here yes Nawaz Sharif is from here no not that no uh not that what I'm saying Smitha is something else I'm saying that these people still carry Hindu and Sikh names okay so so yeah Raja Ashraf you know uh uh uh uh there the Jack uh yeah some of them are Jarred some of them are gujar some of them are rajput so like for example okay right and you know that the cities the chatas the Chimas the rathors the chohans yeah all of them are in Pakistan and they have not many of them have not changed their second the last names the surnames because you take pride


the last names the surnames because you take pride in the fact that you're judse but you're also Muslim yeah right pashtoons don't have that problem you know because pashtune for six thousand years they don't have that problem do the pashtuns in Pakistan not have a problem with it with their identity yeah no they don't have a problem with their identity because it's a civilizational thing you see for them their identity as Wali Khan said I'm a six years old they have got culture they have got pushed the way of the pashtoon there are more pathans used in your book I read I which I didn't know that there are more specials pathans whatever you want to call them in Pakistan then there are in Afghanistan I think isn't it and Karachi is the largest city in the world yeah more than uh jalalabad or Kabul so then but they don't identify themselves as sindhis even though they are in Sindh yeah they identify themselves as pashtuns just like the mahajras


themselves as pashtuns just like the mahajras identify themselves as mahajas even though they are in sin they came from India in 47 but they treated themselves as a nationality but they came in 47. the pashtoons have been coming and going they don't they don't admit to the Durand Line they don't they don't respect it they don't believe in it they've been coming and going they don't see that divide because of their strong cultural ethnic linguistic commonality you see all of them speak Pashto we call it in the north which Imran Khan doesn't speak even though he's a pathan he claims but actually he's Punjabi from has ancestral um settle all this time but doesn't speak Dari or Pashto it seems he does not and the news he speaks Punjabi but but the the niyazis from Miami have been very kind to India yeah yeah very nice and this one is doing extensive damage in fact you know what Smitha recently had asked for people Indians


what Smitha recently had asked for people Indians abroad to start funding the Pakistan and a lot of them have given money to Pakistan because he's on the Long March no and he's going to shake up the system so a lot of people are giving money now 10 to 10 pounds 20 pounds 50 pounds people have started funding namanzur.com is the website I can't do it from India otherwise I would have given half my salary you just stay true to your mission don't don't back down now you're now creating the ground for another foreign funding case against Imran Khan there is certain prohibited funding oh my God take funding from countries yes but Imran Khan is doing wonders I think I I said this long back one one and a half months back I said that uh in fact I I think I can claim to have said it first where I said that the Indian army or the Indian armed forces would not have been able to do so much of damage that Imran Khan alone Imran Khan


of damage that Imran Khan alone Imran Khan foreign he goes to Bruce Wayne and the butler says that uh Alfred I think his name is an Alfred says master Bruce he tells the story that when he was in service he was in the SAS The Specialist service of the British Army and he says I was in Burma and there was this warlord who was throwing away rubies the size of a tangerine he was throwing it away and you know he would fight for the rubies he would steal the rubies but then he would throw it away so he said if he's not selling them or trading in roomies that's what Bruce Wayne asks him he said what's the point because he says master Bruce there are some people who want to watch the world burn yeah that is the nature of the man if I cannot have Pakistan you may as well drop a bomb that is what he said is that is what he said he wants to watch the world burn if he cannot have it then he does


world burn if he cannot have it then he does not care whoever yeah exactly in your book you mentioned this that you know they are they are trying their level best to get over this image that is there with the pashtuns that what gaurav just mentioned there's this thing that as a community they want to fight and they are Fighters but you know there again is this is the conception uh narrative built by the British colonialists accounts of how they look at the British or how they thought of themselves the only one account I came across was by gaffar Khan's and I've quoted an extensive figure what is the question actually what is the Pashto think a person is like and it makes beautiful reading you know it really puts a lump in your throat that what does the Pashto think the Pashto in his life and it's not that they are Fighters but because honor is the most important principle of prashun valley that is defending your honor on the triangle of zarzan zameen


your honor on the triangle of zarzan zameen you know women wealth and land they all carry weapons and because of that they have been given this impression and because they opposed British military um you know uh invasion of their land so the British gave them a thing of develop their Fighters all the time it's not that but I think if uh I think yeah I'm hunting for the court introduction we are content with as one elderly told uh elfinston we are content with Discord we are content with alarms we are content with blood we will never be content with the master because again says that we are all rain Zone wheat we all came up on the same day so all pashtoons are equal because they come from a common ancestor so I also writes that if farmer the dirty hands will put out his hand to shake hands with an emperor he has no blemishes no consciousness of that because he feels he's an equal so achievement you know the the status in society is achieved you're not born


the status in society is achieved you're not born because you are somebody's son or somebody singing what about the tribal loyalties and their tribes so they're all they have to achieve it they have to be by fighting by owning more land by reading Expeditions or whatever so they are the biggest Democrats you know gaurav is mentioning about the baloches how are they different from the Baloch in that respect you see the Baloch have a Sardar who's head of the tribe and role of respect there is no inherited no sort of heredity a car that's all achieved your status is achieved either through War owning more land more Hospitality you know there's no Khan without a duster Khan the bigger you can spread your tablecloth and feed your village the more respect you command in society and people will then in a jirga is where everybody sits down together you sit in a circle there is no one who's the head man everybody is equal is there anything equivalent in


man everybody is equal is there anything equivalent in India gaurav do you see any tribe any oh yes in the Northeast yes in the Northeast in the Northeast you have a gown Buddha a gampura is the head of the village and I've seen very senior uh ministers and very senior is officers but when they go back to their Village they have absolutely no heirs they'll walk around Barefoot and the Gown Buddha calls the shots so yeah uh this and and it's a very very uh evolved Society in the Northeast Northeast of India egalitarian absolutely absolutely I like the pashtoons you know the very reality yeah okay so uh we were talking about the Balochistan uh thing you know how is it that suddenly there is now this pin drop silence as far as the Baloch agitation is concerned it's you know the media's focus is only on the PTI uh March and there's nothing the the Marisa silent the book these are silent yeah it's like the


silent the book these are silent yeah it's like the agnivir movement which happened and then suddenly they said that you know this government is collapsing and all the media moved over to the and suddenly there was no aggravated next day the agitation died down it's the media okay you want to point it out yes all of a sudden Supreme Court Pakistani Supreme Court so so that is that is you know that is uh pretty much how uh Balochistan the balochara minority in Balochistan numerical minority there are more pashtoons in Balochistan plus Balochistan is spread over Iran it is spread over Pakistan thirdly the reason why you know I I often think and I could be wrong but I often think that if Balochistan shared a border with India you see uh if you want to if you want to support a secessionist movement you must have a border with that like for example Kashmir like for example Punjab it becomes difficult for any government to say that you know at the end


any government to say that you know at the end of the day they are like and they're like Australia as far as we are concerned they're an island because we we cannot reach it we can only reach them either by land that way or see directly otherwise there is no other way to get to Balochistan and this is where they have suffered also abject poverty abject poverty yeah you're talking about uh you know uh media Focus uh shifted from the Baloch cause but the thing is that Pakistani media has never really focused on anything any protest anything other than what happens in Punjab you know other they have not focused on the PTM March which is that it's been going on for so long regardless of whichever government comes to power in Islamabad they the March is going on there are disappearances which happen Pakistani media doesn't talk about that the Balochistan thing nothing absolute silence what is happening in their so-called Azad Kashmir the protests which are happening silence even


the protests which are happening silence even on that and here you have in India you know everybody says a Pakistani media is so free and forthcoming by they are only focused on Punjab that nobody talks about actually Indians have no idea many Indians most Indians don't have any idea about Pakistan the Dynamics of Pakistan how it functions and this is the damage that Imran Khan has caused have you ever seen punjabis of Pakistan protesting on the street very rarely so you'll have somebody protesting in Balochistan you'll have people protesting this is the first time where the masses of Punjab have come down and started protesting against the Army an army that is 70 Punjabi for all practical purposes so I think yes and as far as you talked about the Pashto tahafu's movement uh see uh foreign all these are left-leaning people they're essentially Communists and they want Justice within the framework of the Pakistani Constitution and manzoor pashina has never said that I want


manzoor pashina has never said that I want an independent country never said Ki Afghanistan he's never made those sort of statements now how does Pakistan react how does Pakistan react um this is their mindset and these are elected members of National Assembly foreign friends so many times I am confused against all their societal reputation how are the pashtoons so quiet and so nice they remind you of you know of Frontier Gandhi you mentioned him some time back yeah and these pashtoons the day the pashtoons start getting because they're two sides of the same coin and I'm not saying that they are similar they are not they're poles apart their worlds apart but the fact of the matter is that even the Taliban right they are they abandi Muslims right uh the Afghan Taliban and the tarike Taliban Pakistan the TTP now and they also believe in Afghan nationalism right and they said attack the company which is why they don't recognize the different line they said it's nonsense and


recognize the different line they said it's nonsense and all we don't recognize the different line fact of the matter is that there will be a time and I very strongly believe and Mr divasha is here in he'll shed more light he knows far more on this topic than I do but the fact of the matter is that I think this is Pakistan's uh biggest fault line which is just ticking under the surface absolutely absolutely Smitha it is so dangerous it is so dangerous that what they have seen in Balochistan is nothing once the pashtoons get you know highly armed highly motivated enough members in the armed forces enough members in the bureaucracy right they control Karachi for all practical purposes after after the MQM uh you know is is on the ventilator of the Ico I mean it's there but it's not there and and uh the leadership is gone the leadership is gone and altaf is outside but but you've been outside for over 30 years or more 30 years yeah and


for over 30 years or more 30 years yeah and now you can't even make those telephone calls which alsas don't get the crowds now this thing but the fact of the matter is that the fruit business the transport business the logistics business in Karachi is controlled by the pashtuns and where did that attack happen that Baloch woman when she attacked you know the Confucius Institute those people it it was done by Baloch was done in Karachi because and it came out in the Pakistani media none Baloch have a tie up with the with the Taliban the Baloch Freedom Fighters now have tied up with with various factions of Taliban or TTP for that matter it is the same thing I don't I don't I don't see any difference between the GTP and the Afghan Taliban I think they're the one and the same when we talk about patience and you know these disappearances you know yeah both Common Cheese and disappear okay it's a kind of an accepted thing it disappear okay somewhere


kind of an accepted thing it disappear okay somewhere blood money has been paid or something has happened or the understanding he will stop anchoring you know or he will stop coming on television but we disappear it's a common thing how long or the theons are not exactly known for their patience and if this is the kind of atrocities that are happening on them how long do you think that that patience will last will that also explode into a kind of a militant movement against the existing uh you know setup in Pakistan you see first about the Baloch you see people disappear and reappear they reappear as dead bodies in below you can't imagine the agony of the parents the brothers and the sisters when people have been taken away and nobody is there to cover it yeah you've written a book on balochistana in which you mention all this for example did a program and he was shot almost fatally he you know so the media blackout is there because the Army this is the Army's red


is there because the Army this is the Army's red lines you can say nothing about the Baloch or what we are doing in Balochistan it's only through social media now that things have started coming out similar with the PTM the pursue the first movement mainstream media doesn't cover them but thanks to social media they're able to put out visuals put out videos the diaspora then circulates it so people have come to know what is happening over there but the points that you made yes you see the key element of pashtoon Valley is Revenge and there is no time limit that's also a word which I I read in your book I didn't know it is badal it's not bad it's bad you call it but they call it they call it the famous saying took Revenge after 100 years and said he took it too soon so it is pushed their pushed you know generation generally after generation this it festers that I have to take the Revenge the killing of my father here they have butchered


the killing of my father here they have butchered pashtoons like anything the PTM in you know when they pushed out when they did operations in waziristan two billion people have made idps to get Russians from in urban areas of Pakistan they were treated as terrorists racial profiling was done sub is all festering but there are thousands of them rotting in jails right now but when you said your pateka so today already what is happening is that the GTP which is an armed movement to demerger of Atta and that this feels our land this is we will have Independence over here now if they were to tie up with the Baloch no no with the PTM question which is a non-violent thing Pashto nationalist party and a nationalist violent movement can you imagine what state will be in of and here you have Pakistan who keep talking about several separatist movements in India but what you are telling me is that fata separate yeah there are people in fatah who want


separate yeah there are people in fatah who want to separate the baloches want to separate or their so-called separated and they see the they see the prosperity in Indian Kashmir right now you know at the risk of being labeled as a bhakta right now I might just turn around and say prosperity in Indian Kashmir they're seeing that and they're seeing the gurbat in Pakistani Kashmir and there is but no nobody is talking about that in the Pakistani media nobody's nobody's referring to these separatist movements in Pakistan and also just to finish my point see Pakistan tried to drive a wedge between the TTP and the Afghan Taliban after they took over in Kabul they told the Afghan Taliban can you send them over to us and we'll take care of them said nothing doing because what Pakistan forgot was that when the U.S bombed the Taliban in 2001 they all sought shelter either in quetta or in waziristan and the


either in quetta or in waziristan and the tribesmen gave them shelter protection looked after them and it is these Travis men Terror who are part of the TTP so as per pushed there is no way so they told Pakistan it's your problem you sorted out at best we will facilitate negotiations and ask the TTP to talk to you but you sought out along with your ulmas what their problem is and of those negotiations have broken down so if they have gone Taliban the TTP the pristunfels movement and even the mainstream parties like the Army National party which are pursued mainstream political parties they all got together recently in something called the pashtoon Kami uh and it's a very listen it's just a green shoot there at the moment but who knows in the next five to ten years what happens okay uh gaurav you know you've been uh you've been watching Pakistan for so long you've been in the armed forces in India and uh you have come


the armed forces in India and uh you have come on television channels and you you're completely against this mombati brigade that you've refer to very often that you know India should open talks with Pakistan and things now we've also had an Indian Prime Minister who said that a strong and stable Pakistan uh is in India's interest you have said to the contrary that you know Pakistan you tell me now that if if what we are hearing now that you know the bhaktouns also there are separatist movements in Pakistan what is there any good for India if Pakistan breaks up or is it good for India if Pakistan stabilizes itself in democracy get some hold in Pakistan Smith I think it's a function of intent and capability uh today Pakistan has the intent to cause India harm but does not have the capability because of its own Shenanigans its own lack of money it being in the feta for more than four four and a half years close to five years uh I think all these factors are there the day


uh I think all these factors are there the day the day uh Pakistan has capability there will be again a 2611 or an akshardham Temple attack they will do it again that's number one number two I'd like to say that you know former Chief of Army staff of Pakistan you know he said that if you have capability intent can change overnight uh you see basically what is happening I I you know a lot of lot of people have said Army generals have said and a lot of diplomats have made this point that a stable Pakistan is in India's uh in India's favor you know it will help India if there is a stable how I have it if somebody can explain to me logically I think this is this is like a lot of lot of people in Delhi they miss uh you know Lahore right and I'll tell you why this is a lie uh I I may sound slightly radical when I say it but I'll say it anyway and uh you know they have attacked us they have


and uh you know they have attacked us they have killed Indians they've waged War the existence of Pakistan is detrimental to India's national security repeat that the existence of Pakistan is detrimental to India's national security that's a very radical Rhine I'll tell you why they attacked us in 47-48 they attacked us in 65 they attacked us in 71 operation changes Khan right operation Gibraltar in 1965. they attacked us in kargil why are they not attacking us now because they cannot they will attack us again and I'll just tell you one thing here a lot of people say oh you're sounding radical or you know you don't you don't you don't want a love there is no love between India and Pakistani but then a peaceful coexistence Indians have sold themselves and I think I am I I feel very very strongly because so many of my friends you know their names are in the National Ward Memorial yeah I I don't have I have no forgiveness in my heart for Pakistan


have I have no forgiveness in my heart for Pakistan yeah right it can be an emotional reaction from my side but the fact of the matter is this is going to happen again and again till the time you solve the problem you know what we're doing wrong in Kashmir I'll tell you we what we're doing wrong in Kashmir Smitha is simply that you know a problem that exists in raval Pindi we are trying to solve it in Sri nagar right it's it's like a tap just say it is that you know even when there is a cricket match one commentator will say that today you're going to have this Grand cricket match between two nuclear parts that is the mindset the pakistanis have I'm not saying all of them are bad I'm not saying that but the world will be a safer place without Pakistan okay ah I'll just say one thing you see the problem in Pakistan is that their mindset has been poisoned against India because of the textbooks in government schools they hate


because of the textbooks in government schools they hate it 18 minutes sorry to interrupt you has been poisoned they have poisoned themselves so it's it's the inherent bile within them it's the inherent venom in them but you know a five-year-old kid who's in school he is taught he is taught that who's your enemy which have been done in Pakistan itself and I quote that in my first book that is the kind of hatred that has been generated if Pakistan was to change the textbooks today the first student will come out after 15 18 20 years but they've been brainwashed over Generations look so you know you can't expect any kind of especially in Punjabi schools in Punjab schools a Punjabi musalman is the real hatred against India and against Hindu comes from them and they are the dominant community in Pakistan so when you know you've you've been uh you've been in the government you've now uh you're an author you also are in the National Security Advisory Board now in


are in the National Security Advisory Board now in you've seen you met with pakistanis you've you've been part of conversations where they you know which is a different line than what gaurav is saying where he says that existence of Pakistan is detrimental to India's continuity but you've heard the other side too what is their point of view do they really are they is there a constituency in Pakistan which thinks that nehem coexistence it's only Tactical because you're in a back foot because you're in a weak Wicket yes and a Punjabi will always compromise I'm sorry to sound uh you know but they're very practical one minute when you say Punjabi will only compromise what you you what you're saying is that the conversation happens only among the punjabis the others don't matter in Pakistan don't have a problem they're not so much concerned about Kashmir the problem the Wellspring for hatred against India comes from Punjab and today because they're in a week Wicket they see the


because they're in a week Wicket they see the development that is taking place in India the Indian economy is doing so uh so well and India is doing well it's diplomatically is doing so well they say you know now let's moderate our uh you know whatever we want to do let's improve ourselves get to a position of strength and then okay I will see other capability intent will change so yeah it's a tactical thing or if I think that's exactly what you were talking about what I'm trying to also say is apart from what Mr dewasher said about the radicalization of the Punjabi textbooks uh three years back I was in anantanag before this covert thing happened and I usually carry these toffees and chocolates in my pocket and you know you wave to kids and you go away and all that so I like to interact with people there and kids and all that so I do that I quoted this once before and I said um somebody said foreign this girl said this five


said um somebody said foreign this girl said this five six years old who poisoned her mind and and I asked the colonel there the Russia rifles officer who was there with me he said sir I can fight against Pakistan I can fight against lushkar but in front of this girl I have lost my weapons are useless in front of this is blow yourself up and kill 40 people we are fighting against a mindset and I'm telling you dramatic though it may sound this is not hateful I'm just being truthful that this is an existential fight yeah this is tactical like Mr devasha said exactly yeah they'll again uh if that is at a faster Pace or as an equal Pace will that be able to combat this you know this this radicalization which happens we can do it at that place right Kerala is the most literate state in India right now it's not just about education it's about Mahal it's about environment also you know you were talking about social media a short while


know you were talking about social media a short while ago that uh the media was controlled and that's why people in Pakistan didn't know much about it but social media now you know I'm going to come into the aspect of information Warfare uh the the isi moves like like a you know a platoon when it comes to information Warfare India on the other hand seems like it is fighting on the back foot all the time do you feel that too do you see the the problem in India I think is that we still have not recognized media as an element of National Power we are still very apprehensive about the media it's a double-edged weapon is Pakistan is a weaponized media you look at the ispr and the info operations of the isi they have recruited thousands of young people so they can start a Twitter storm a hashtag campaign at the top of a hat you know in that cricket match yeah he dropped a catch and look at the kind of so they're looking for opportunities because they know that media


they're looking for opportunities because they know that media is an element of National Power we have to develop that mindset and look at strategic communication as a whole of government approach you know I hand out and you expect the media will pick it up and not develop it into it doesn't work that with today's age you have to get a narrative in first and get it ineffectively you have to get your narrative in first and for that you need very sharp people recognizing that the element of National Power you know uh gaurav for the one person who may not know who's watching this show on YouTube or whatever that you know you're actually a major also a major in the Army uh and you serve the forces this ashdeep thing is something which is so recent it it bothered me so much it shouldn't have but it it really gave me sleepless nights you know for you know for our viewers or listeners uh in sitting in countries where Cricket is not a religion just to recap a little


is not a religion just to recap a little bit and there was this dropped catch by an Indian cricketer ashtip and and within minutes after he dropped it the entire Pakistani crowd on Twitter started off that we have won the match because of this guy who's uh you know obviously he's a Sikh and seek means khalistani and Sikh has betrayed India and stood by Pakistan now by the time you know Indians or India tried to say that yay these are not indians who are saying this these are these Twitter handles are by pakistanis which was some Anonymous Handle by about 3 A.M India time who brought out the IP addresses and said that these are not indians who are saying it by they are not indians screaming at ashdeep on Twitter these are Pakistani handles you know by then it had picked up a life of its own and then even Indian newspapers and ethnic newspapers abroad and then foreign newspapers had all picked that up the websites had all picked up


all picked that up the websites had all picked up because and by the time India woke up and India reacted I'm I mean official handles it had it was seven years damage had been done by then yes you know so our information Warfare as I said it doesn't move with the speed that ispr does and I'm not even convinced that those were ispr handles you never know they could be just some radicalized Pakistani handles who are sitting and doing this shaking it I often tell the pakistanis that the only strike Corps that Pakistan has ispr Pakistan again I'm going to interrupt you because there might be people who don't even know the full form of ispr and what the ispr does so so in 1949 Pakistan created a tri-services agency called the inter-services public relations and while it's called inter Services the head is more or less always a army man that's what I've seen in the past 20 25 years I don't know if I've missed out somebody but generally it's a Kaki worthy wearing


somebody but generally it's a Kaki worthy wearing guy and they are the people who do information Warfare and public relations for the Pakistan Army they are the people who ordered the shooting of a Hamid Meer say that is these are the people who probably the media who tell pemra right the the electronic regulatory Authority in Pakistan all these things so the flow of information is managed by ispr and they try to manage the national flow of information not just sarkari but also civilian which includes Electronic media web Twitter Facebook etc etc what Pakistan does is Pakistan has realized that this is not a 4g's game and this is something that we in India have not realized and we must yes you need songwriters you need editors you need poets right uh you you need you need script writers you need hackers you need people who are like human bots in their thousands this is what you need this is not something that you see today in today's when we talk about Network Centric Warfare and where 5G has come in


Network Centric Warfare and where 5G has come in and all that today one or two teenagers with laptops right can cause far more damage than an infantry Brigade they can cause far more damage we need to realize it's it's cyber it's information Warfare and I think what and India can do it 10 times better than Pakistan because in the end it's a function of vision and money it's a function of vision and money who understands that this is important get a building in place that's what I've told people get a building in place fill it up with people right tell them and this building takes 24 into seven this building never sleeps foreign and Trust You me when I say this I know what to do if somebody were to give me money na I can cause the kind of damage that Imran Khan is causing inside Pakistan can you imagine the mindset France these are good people but we need to tap into this it's a country created in the name of religion so they think that that religion's


name of religion so they think that that religion's protection is their job regardless of where the attack happens god-given country no other Islamic country says this Pakistan is hmm they don't a god-given country yeah but they know how to ex exploit the fissures in our country we don't know or we don't have the intent probably we don't have the intent and we ever see that that is a country that was you know a National Security State Security State bana what's my foreign and a general you know it's it's like a general passing orders that I want this done and it is done democracy is always messy it's messy exactly this is exactly what I said that democracy is you know we are stuck in systems right systems then you need several layers of you know approvals and grants and those kind of things it is not a one person who decides everything you know like when we were talking about narratives uh like you said that in your book you talk about the pashtuns who


in your book you talk about the pashtuns who didn't write their narrative The Narrative was written by the Brits for them but the same thing happens like when balacode happened they got the narrative first because by the time our narrative came and of course we have our politicians who say video proof though yeah foreign but in our country it doesn't happen like that what do you think about it no it is you see because the unfortunate polarization even when matters of National Security and foreign policy are concerned has become deep-seated that people think that by scoring cheap points they are somehow damaging the government they don't realize they're actually damaging the country whatever is your political fight that's separate you must you know Parliament here other places are there but when it comes to issues of National Security the national interest must be must predominate that I think has got somewhere it's it's not happening to the extent that it should in Kashmir do you think that in in their so-called


Kashmir do you think that in in their so-called Azad Kashmir uh the narrative is because about the media you know off camera we were talking about how even the media there uh is uh is not is not free see button there are very few people who speak kashmiri because the land that was taken over mostly it was not Kashmir so what essentially happens there is that all these people you know from mirpur and all that some people about speak kashmiri shows no they they speak pahadi they speak dogri they speak Punjabi 98 of the people in Pok identify themselves as ethnic punjabis it's basically they've turned the whole place Punjabi and today a lot of people there is dissonance there in the sense that there is there is frustration there because there is no they don't have an airport there in in Pok one uh there is nothing if you want to catch a flight you have to come out of Pok and then go into Islamabad whichever is the closest and


then go into Islamabad whichever is the closest and then catch a flight so they're in a very bad State they don't have good hospitals I mean finally these things do matter growth matters they have no media also that's also controlled by um that is owned by the Pakistani army controlled by the core of signals so even their phones are tapped that means they don't pakistanis don't trust they might say Kashmir Road Pakistan but do they trust the kashmiris know they don't trust the kashmiris they do not trust because one day jkla woke up one fine morning I said Pakistan this is not good here they started killing of people and which is why when al-faran came and went none of them had Kashmir in their names these are all pan Islamic names that is what Pakistan seeks to control they have the same model even in Balochistan nationalism is the same script you know it it did not succeed in Bangladesh or east Pakistan will it succeed here because there also it was an identity but


succeed here because there also it was an identity but there it was it was a very Fierce identity crisis is there similar kind of identity crisis with regard to the pashtuns with regard to the baloches uh is it strong enough for Pakistan to Splinter to break up you see they have used ban islamism especially did during the time of the Soviet Jihad all a lot of people came in from the Middle East from Saudi Arabia and wahhabi kind of influence but people forget that the pashtoons Afghanistan has been a very strong Center of moderate Sufi Islam you know herat for example is called the soil of the Sufi Saints ghazni was called aboard of the Sufi Saints the most famous Sufi Shrine in Lahore is actually who came from Ghazi so gradually the Sufi thing will have to reassert itself today it is not because it has been overcome by Barbies and in all kinds of things but once the Sufi culture reasserts itself which


but once the Sufi culture reasserts itself which is what even you would be surprised used to visit the grave of his teacher every week and would also visit other Graves though we say he's a cutter and this kind of a thing but very strong Sufi influence so I think the Sufi influence has to come back and we'll come back will bring it no not not Imran concertly not no with black magic and all that that he's he's believed to do no no no other uh so that is not going to happen but you know before you end I want to make two points the polarization which Imran Khan has brought about in Pakistan today is absolutely frightening and unbelievable there was political polarization you know pppm of social polarization in fact Dawn quoted as a seven-year-old girl who came back from school and told the father that people who are supporters of PTI children and those are supporters of Nawaz pmln sit separately now we don't even sit together


sit separately now we don't even sit together in a classroom in the classroom one second you know this political situation is what do you see at the moment there are 30 million people who don't have shelter because of the floods there's a Luby's Water Crisis in Pakistan they have an education emergency in what I wrote about in my first book economy is on a slippery slope population is growing at 2.4 percent three million people are entering the labor force every year year after year for the next 40 years there are no jobs these are the kind of issues that are eating away Pakistan and nobody is paying attention to these fundamental issues of the country they're all bothered about it where is Pakistan headed that they are on a precipice they could fall either way either Embrace democracy see that the success that it's had in countries around them and embrace that or else go into a state of chaos like Afghanistan has done what do you see uh gaurav what do you see


do you see uh gaurav what do you see happening as we conclude it's the last question Pakistan is not a normal country Pakistan will continue to exist in some form or the other truncated balkanized or otherwise or otherwise but Pakistan will never be normal they'll keep on limping be this country will keep on being on ventilator from one year to the next to the next sometimes the Americans will give money now he went and he got some money from the Chinese and then he got some money from the Saudis and now he started this whole tamash about climate Justice and he's saying and what is this whole thing with the Saudis there is a difference just just my last statement and then I think that is Pakistan sitting on the water tanker drunk and telling the world's nuclear weapons and they've been doing it successfully they've been blackmailing the world and the world has been giving the money but then what I mean after seeing the rush I don't want to go into the Russia Ukraine crisis but


want to go into the Russia Ukraine crisis but after seeing that you can actually call the bluff on the nuclear uh thing isn't it on the button no with Pakistan with regard to Pakistan all the time using this nuclear Button as a big thing that um and then there'll be destruction in the entire region or the subcontinent or or Beyond you know that is you know we can do this yeah I think that the Pakistan Army leadership which controls the actual button is responsible enough not to do going for this kind of nuclear brinkmanship I think so at the moment at least but the danger with the nuclear issue is that they don't believe in India's nuclear Doctrine we build it very clear that even if you have a tnw tactical nuclear weapon we will have massive retaliation you can't do it if we have a one kiloton nuclear weapon you will not bomb Lahore with the 30th you can't do it I think but four years exactly the frightening thing is that in their


years exactly the frightening thing is that in their Doctrine when you meet people this is that is the dangerous thing not so much as you know they're threatening they want you know I teach I don't think so at the moment they're not is that irrational at the moment all right thank you so much for this conversation uh Mr diveshar thank you Gora for coming in and giving us uh two points of view which are almost similar I feel that after this conversation but of course uh your articulation is different and interesting and all the best to you in your endeavors uh gaurav you are now uh you know moved into the think tank space and you're doing very well in that thank you very much so all the best to you too and I look forward to uh having you back with your fifth book soon thank you thank you so much for having me thank you so you really enjoyed this conversation and wish you all the best in your new Venture thank you thank you so much thank you all right


thank you thank you so much thank you all right thank you for watching or listening into Ani podcast with Smitha prakash do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you listen to this or watch this namaste foreign [Music]


let me tell you there's going to be no confusion about which side of the faction I'm on I am with other balance I thought crazy I will repeat this like 100 times over even if there are three people five people ten people we are going to be fighting this out I used to be writing columns way before I joined the Congress yeah I was a communication person many people tend to think that everything I did was after joining them always learn even from your opponents and what Mr Modi has done he's transformed what communication is visual communication is and that is something you you must give him full marks for patrolling for women is way higher statistics prove it uh worldwide it is a phenomenon where women are mostly trolled there's a history for everyone yeah either you Embrace that history many times people tell me that oh you are that turn code history it was not supposed to be that way but there was no reason for you to in hindsight do a suspension how does it feel you know they were having fun


how does it feel you know they were having fun at my expense welcome to another edition of eni podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is Priyanka chaturvedi she's a woman Member of Parliament nominated to the rajya Sabha from the shivsena party Priyanka chaturvedi was first in the congress party and due to one incident which uh which he spoken about in the podcast she left the party she was considered close to the powers that be but it she didn't hesitate once she decided to leave the party she went back to Mumbai and there she decided to join the shiv Cena a regional party now in the shiv Cena she's again close to the powers that be in Parliament her role has been pretty strong she picks up issues sometimes which are not even connected to uh to Mumbai or Maharashtra the party from where she belongs but she's very vociferous in her defense or in her view about gender equality on gender issues she speaks a lot she is also so she also has


speaks a lot she is also so she also has a very strong view about hindutva about the BJP she's very strident in her in her criticism of whether it is Mr Modi or whether it is Mr amitsha but whatever she speaks on she speaks straight from her heart you'll see that even in her conversation now she gets trolled a lot but she takes on her trolls with a lot of Gusto and she doesn't give them any space when she takes them on so here's my conversation with Priyanka chaturvedi joining me in the podcast is my colleague payal Mehta Priyanka ji thank you very much for coming to Ani podcast with Smitha prakash and before I begin about all your politics and about everything to do with shiv Cena I'm going to start by asking you how do you cope with all that Supreme love that you get on social media no firstly I was surprised with that g that you added to my name you don't need to do that so yeah so all the


don't need to do that so yeah so all the love that I get from social media I think it is just something you get used to you remember how we started you know how Twitter was a place I used to have a lot of fun but we've seen that transition happen to a point where you can't share any part of your personal life it's all about your work and yet you get trolled but I think I've learned to live with it now there's there's no other way but continue to do what you're doing and while I read all the comments but I have to ignore them but um dealing with it I think it was another transition for me I used to be very uh it used to be very surprising for me very sensitive about any criticism coming my way so for that also to change it took a little time there were times when I used to just think of deleting my Twitter handle then I've I used to wonder why should I be doing that I shouldn't these guys be learning how


doing that I shouldn't these guys be learning how to talk to women but I think it's become so um I think such a way of life for some people to seek attention so I've started to ignore it but it wasn't like that initially for you right it's only after you move to politics yeah that uh it got really vicious uh with the uh with the trolling that came your way yes it was I I remember a phase where if I know you also one of the first movers to that platform we were amongst those who were there was a little village that one had and everybody chatted and uh I remember that you could have different political opinions and it didn't matter and it was almost like a Town Square you come you have fun you talk about your favorite food favorite music movies Etc and uh we saw a lot of barriers also coming down so political people who are at that point of time and I joined uh uh Twitter I wasn't really active in politics politics also happened


really active in politics politics also happened after I joined Twitter after the entire Terror attacks and I was already on social media uh when the 2611 Terror attacks happened in Mumbai so I've seen the transition happen where it used to be a fun place to this so I think it's part of how you mold yourself I guess but is it disturbing because you know sometimes these comments are really really personal you know they call you or they call you Manus and I don't know what all they're called they've called me they've called me all kinds of names you know you you create a problem but I guess like I told somebody once again say essay tweets I'm happy for them if it makes their lives happier or they seem to be in a better space after trolling me good for you but you know okay that's a good way of dealing with with trolls right where you have to uh you have to understand how to deal with them but it does affect the mental health after


with them but it does affect the mental health after all one is a human being you can't if you're constantly abused and your children are dragged your family is dragged I think that that hurts that that hit me quite a bit and many times it has hit me especially when it comes to my my children I think it's a very motherly Instinct as soon as it comes to your children you react in a certain way so I I decided very early on social media profiles that anyone who crosses the line you can continue to talk about me Etc but you can if you drag my children into this you drag my family who's not in political uh space of work you drag them then I won't spare you and I've gone to the cop so many times I think before I became a member of parliament they were very familiar with me who comes and she talks about complaints about it there was a point in time when they used to tell me why are you getting Disturbed it took me


tell me why are you getting Disturbed it took me a lot of time to explain to them as well uh in Mumbai that Joe online so um with my kids I don't just tolerate I don't tolerate even now I'm very thin-skinned about my children but with me I you all I I sometimes feel either you can continue battling this out or fighting this out or learn to live with it accommodate this kind of trolling Behavior because I'm very certain that these very people would not come to my face and do things like this or say the kind of things they do oh no they don't they don't I mean I'm sure go ahead and have coffee some people telling me that you're not a good host because your guests don't drink their coffee and you keep drinking but you and that's that's true so um I I'm going to come back to you know the mental health of women who are on social media and coping with that I'm going to come back to it but it would be unfair


to come back to it but it would be unfair if I if I continue to talk on this and not speak about your political Avatar uh and you know for our viewers or our listeners who are abroad uh you're one of those who uh one of those women politicians who does not come from a political family you don't have a Godfather you didn't have you didn't have a brother Mother sister brother anybody in politics who propelled you or you thought you know you've worked in the constituency of your family so hence you got into it so tell me um why did you get into politics and why the congress party so uh when the 26 11 Terror attacks happened politics was not part of my scenario or something that I thought I would do and like every average Indian citizen at that point in time they felt of Father where you are from Politics the better it is those who are handling it handle it I came from a family which believed in that okay we just we go once in


believed in that okay we just we go once in five years and obviously so I came from a family like that 26 11 kind of changed my focus in life where uh I had just had a baby and I remember my husband who was traveling from uh Bangalore he was returning to Mumbai and I heard of the blast near the airport and I was quite shaken to the call I was a normal Moon biker working in a space Etc I thought we had to contribute to the society so that was one change the second was why the Congress at that point in time when I was I started my pavement schools and in terms of uh voting I come from a family which was very liberal in mindset which was we my parents moved from mathura to Mumbai and uh they felt that Mumbai has done so much and it's so inclusive and we got career opportunities there so they somehow connected it to the Congress and that we are all living in this space right from the Freedom Movement to now so


this space right from the Freedom Movement to now so that was how my upbringing was in terms of my in-laws they were totally on the other side of the spectrum so that's another interesting story so Congress became a very natural choice for me and at that point in time when they were opening up the system SRI Rahul Gandhi had started this entire process of bringing in people from different spheres of work and they had approached me they said that you know you're doing some great work why don't you look at youth congress as a platform and that is how it I initiated my entire political career but I was very uh I would say I you know how you are apprehensive and you're also questioning their credibility that would they be able to look at as someone who's coming from a totally non-political background and make space for her you were also I remember the first meeting that you had with Rahul Gandhi uh I you know you tweeted on that and I I was I was like


tweeted on that and I I was I was like she's such a fan girl because you literally had it was like a fan girl moment for you when you met him for the first time and I know that there were many who were you know oh your name is Priyanka his sister's name is Priyanka and then you tweeted a picture uh you know of I don't think selfies were there at that time there was a picture picture that you tweeted over and you literally had you know glazed eyes you were like yeah because you know um I'm sure even if I meet Omar Abdullah I'll have that glazed eyes even now because those of you know those are people who've grown up watching on television and making new stories talking about politics and I came from a totally non-political background never would have thought that I'll be in this space of work where I will be engaging with them and I'll be talking to them I think social media in that manner did a fantastic job and also


in that manner did a fantastic job and also there was this conversations that you know lots of us used to have without realizing these are it's a public platform everybody is so personal views there was actually you know payal there was a a list which was put out and everybody did this like in college there was something called a chick chart where good looking girls names were put on that it was horrendous now when you look back of it you say oh my God what a sexist thing it is but on Twitter there was something called Nayan souk oh my god with the Clooney weather and the Clooney weather and we women would automatically say politicians pleasing to the eye in which Rahul Gandhi used to be there so everybody used to put in out there without thinking that yeah this can come back to haunt us at some point of time and those kind of conversations I think you didn't realize probably that you're going to get into publicly this is like you know I used to talk about


this is like you know I used to talk about someone's dressing sense some public Personality yeah you should talk about their sarees it used to be so casual it will just still do that you still watch what people wear oh of course I always do that but she's careful but then I I WhatsApp it to a particular set of yeah but I don't tweet it because you get into trouble but uh the point is that there was a time when I used to comment on people's clothes and I say how unfashionable or like what is the combination even it was just so normal is and I remember Samantha used to tweet this is oh this is so Clooney weather yeah till somebody told me midlife crisis that she still got this crush on a person who's in his 50s and so is she so it was like horrendous imagine you know we used to discuss and many people people who are from the old Twitter gang they will remember this I have since College days I had this huge


this I have since College days I had this huge crush on Arjun rampal and every time we used to discuss Arjun rampal everybody would tag me Priyanka you know Arjun is being discussed yeah it used to be such a fun place but we've seen the transition happening when did when you joined the Congress did people in the congress party or did the media cell tell you turn this down like change your avatar not at all no that that is I think one thing that I'd appreciate is that they were like be who you are do what you want and uh I don't believe that no no it was it was it just came very consciously to me that you know now that I I am I have been nominated as a media panelist of a party and uh so this it definitely comes with certain responsibilities and I kind of uh toned down myself because um everything I was putting out there was being linked to Congress in some way so if I say oh I love red they would


so if I say oh I love red they would say oh how can you love red when congress party loves green or whatever know so I was like everything would come back to the congress party so I thought it made no sense for me to even if for example if I was to share an English song or a Hindi song and like oh who are you linking this song to who is this song for do you think that it happens a lot for women spokespersons of political parties more than the male spokesperson like would was Mr surge attacked in the same manner like you were because he was hitting your team right no no but but um I'm certainly not I'm very sure it did not work like that and uh I don't think um men take it too hot as much as women do uh but uh definitely trolling for women is way higher statistics prove it uh uh worldwide it's it is a phenomenon where women are mostly trolled see you were with uh Rahul Gandhi when


see you were with uh Rahul Gandhi when uh when he was he was a president he was of the party and you were in the media cell you were very uh you know working closely active and uh what is the difference that and then you know you had you had your issues with the media team at that time there was divya's pandana who was heading the team and and then you know it was quite obvious to all of us from the outside that there seems to be some something not working right you know and 2019 elections um they lost and the entire media team went their separate ways everything collapsed so tell us something about it it's over right yeah it is it is uh uh so yes I was pretty active on social media I was pretty and I think I did a good job for them I mean I would say so considering that uh um I still get calls from a lot of people from the Congress from you know far off places rural constances or maybe because I've worked in


places rural constances or maybe because I've worked in madhya Pradesh I've worked in Karnataka so I do get calls from them but yes there were certain challenges where uh I felt that uh you know you can always Overlook them because it's part of the process no organization can please everybody so but yeah uh you're quite right it was pretty awkward at times uh in terms of working alongside people who I would say were a bit toxic so tell me you left um Congress also because of something which happened which was very toxic uh it was like it it just seemed that it was boiling and boiling and that was the watershed moment that definitely was the watershed moment for me because um Smith if you you've known me and you've seen my entire trajectory I I've not been someone I'm comfortable in my space I'm not insecure about people I know what I do I bring the best to the table and my best abilities and best efforts and I don't think anybody would raise a finger


and I don't think anybody would raise a finger to that particular point of thing up the issue but I did feel that uh certain things are not just going right uh not that I was seeking a ticket which is told about many times many people make that as an excuse then they say oh priyankan is settle Kia with another party before she chose to jump opportunistic there is nothing of that sort I was pretty happy in my space but there were moments where I felt that things could have been handled better but this particular thing like you said was the Tipping Point for me uh Tipping Point because I have stood very strongly about uh women's rights and women's issues and when you as a political party are talking about women and how women have to be heard Etc then you have to prioritize that you cannot uh you know think I have two thoughts about it for Outsiders or insiders right what you speak outside should be applicable within the party what happened was in uh in in


the party what happened was in uh in in a particular month uh some people were suspended but they were brought back during the election time and uh that I thought was the alpark thing that if you take a stance now for me and if I am important important or if I'm relevant forget important relevant relevant who you will listen to me did you speak with uh Priyanka Gandhi or Sonia Gandhi look I'm the reason I asked their names is because uh if such an incident had happened where a woman politician would have got roughed up and uh things in say a samajwadi party or in a party where women are not in positions of power then I can well understand that you know hierarchy wise you don't get your view but this is a party where ladki who learned there's a Priyanka Gandhi and there's a Sonia Gandhi who's been at the helm for like almost 30 years now so did you get a hearing from either of them actually to be very honest um


from either of them actually to be very honest um uh I had shared this with the general secretary in charge of uttar Pradesh which was my immediate boss which was randeep surjawala I had shared it with both of them and immediately you know a committee was formed and they realized what Priyanka was saying was right and suspensions happen the main person who was to be suspended was not suspended for whatever reasons because he was someone I knew since my childhood days but even he ended up being part of the problem but it was decided mutually that let's not do that we have taken action against the team my only request at that time was that when when the time comes please ensure that they're not taken back six years ago suspension Tonka foreign but it came at a time the the taking them back in at a time when uh everybody was so caught up and then everybody tried to tell me that listen listen we will address this election post election which I was not ready for you


election post election which I was not ready for you know there comes at point in time where you decide that uh what do you stand up for and for me that was it but isn't that shocking you know you have a woman who's at the helmetology has been saying but waiting you know waiting and telling a woman that you know this is a serious issue isn't it no okay why would you have to reach out to them why couldn't they have reached out to you no the mother because we talk about so much of women empowerment no because maybe maybe because they were not aware of uh this because I had resolved you're not a you're not a party worker you were you were a serious person you know somebody who was part of the media team you were somebody who was there in the public right right and you put you put that out in the public but I'm a very stickler for protocol you know that if if that can be addressed by XYZ why should I trouble ABC so that has


by XYZ why should I trouble ABC so that has been my case uh even now I mean I would say that if if something can be resolved at this level why do I take it to that uh but and I try not to make anything ugly because uh it just doesn't work out when you look back in time and uh but I thought that because it was just so close to the their men that they would have gone even could have said yeah Priyanka is right and for Jyoti also to say you know let's hang on I have an election going and that they have asked for something I mean I say everything's in the past and we've kind of thought it's uh it's not that's what happens you know business anyway let me get back to the media uh Team you were there in their media team right what do you have to say do you see any change in the media team now that jayaram Ramesh has come you're seeing Rahul Gandhi then uh and Rahul Gandhi kilometers


Gandhi then uh and Rahul Gandhi kilometers yeah do you see any difference in in the way the media is being you know his projection in the media is it more successful do you think now I think it would be unfair for me to say anything at this point because just taken over but the rebranding is uh quite transformational I feel in the past just two months reactionary time is like this everything I would say maybe there is also an understanding of how narrative works and I can tell you one thing for sure that that was quite a struggle for me to explain the power of imagery the power of visuals like you know you always learn even from your opponents and what Mr Modi has done he's transformed what communication is visual communication is and that is something you you must give him full marks for because he's quite Hands-On himself a communication is concerned and if you've got your communication and your narrative in sync then it becomes an Unstoppable Force you know how would you have


an Unstoppable Force you know how would you have a visual communication of a president who was not in the country when you were in the media team uh yeah I mean yeah that was uh something which um what would you show no I'm certainly uh you know whenever he used to take some time out but whenever he was in the country there were enough and more for example for example I'd want to give you the prakash or the the Fiasco of Germany his German Germany visit where uh some photos were put up on Twitter looking up down left right round any communication expert would tell you that even if you've taken photos like this I'm sure Mr modiji has his own moments but Mr motiji is very careful about what he's putting out there but yeah eventually if your your communication person has gone and put that out uh who's someone who's relying on and you depend on I would I would blame the communication person because you are trying to uh let down the person who had faith in you to show


down the person who had faith in you to show the Right image or to set the right narrative and that was a very uh interesting Outreach that he had he was getting a lot of traction abroad and he could he was able to put his point of view across and without being censored without being stopped and he could speak his mind and that was the momentum that was coming out of it and those four images that were tweeted out from the congress party handled were just so unfortunate so those were those are my pain points right because as someone who has and let me also on your show put it on record which you are aware of you are also aware of but um I used to be writing columns way before I joined the Congress yeah I was a communication person many people tend to think that everything I did was after joining them I was already doing that for someone who has been in the communication who's Hands-On with social media would understand all of this so you um then you from a center left or


so you um then you from a center left or a left party that Congress has become the options were there for you right uh why join this extreme right party then shift Cena actually not many are where because see when you're sitting in Delhi your narrative is only via the Parliament and what you're hearing but on ground locally there's a lot of changes that are happening and because I used to keep my family had refused to move with me to Delhi because my husband used to keep telling me that your role is so uncertain you don't know where you're heading in life why should we move back baggage to Delhi and because of what you are choosing to do so I used to live a very tough life seven five days of the week I was in Delhi uh only the weekends I was getting to spend with my children and in those weekends we were trying to get all the family together do our family numbers try and do our holidays holidays also became a luxury it


our holidays holidays also became a luxury it became very difficult so um but I used to keep going to Mumbai and uh Maharashtra and I used to keep figuring out uh what is happening on ground and I was seeing a transition happen because Aditya just stepped in and he had his own ideas whether it was with plastic ban whether it was transforming the entire educational system of The BMC The BMC run schools I was seeing a real push towards uh issue based uh political party it was moving away from what it was because they felt it was not the need of the Aden the need of the hour was to look at skill building Etc but the politics is of Street Politics the politics see there is there is a momentum that you build through your on-ground uh movements and there is what you once you are in that position of power what are you doing with it are you transforming lives are you transforming systems are you transforming uh the ability of people to Aspire for more


uh the ability of people to Aspire for more so that was what I was seeing with that so he he is very clear with the environment that climate change is the challenge he was speaking about it a lot earlier then it became a fashionable thing to speak about I was seeing that happen and I also felt that uh with me moving and I I did not want to I was definitely very let down by Delhi at that point in time I said National Party whatever it could be a national party the congress party but I want to move back to Maharashtra family was the biggest pull for me uh politics was not in my Horizon I thought yeah and then Congress will come back to yeah something like that you know that but then when I resigned and everything happened within 48 hours and I was so angry so angry um that is when other tiji told me you know things seemed to be going so well for you what are you doing what are you even doing it used to be such


what are you even doing it used to be such a happy feeling to see you standing next to Sri Rahul Gandhi and talking and you know addressing the media and I told him and he asked me what's your plan I said nothing I mean I'm coming back to Mumbai baggage so he said if that is where you're looking at working why would you want to give up your politics I said because I don't see myself going with any other party now he said why don't you look at us and and that is when it struck me that it made just the perfect sense for I get to work in Maharashtra I get to work in the city I love the way my family belongs and I'd be able to work for a party which has been you know very Cosmopolitan in terms of working in the city of Mumbai where Cosmopolitan I get that part where you're talking about environment and all that Aditya is doing and all that's fine but it is it is an essentially


that's fine but it is it is an essentially hindutva party much more than even the BJP yes and you all through were attacking you know attacking in the sense ideologically attacking that hindutva aspect of the BJP you were never attacking anything other than the hindutra aspect of the of Mr Modi of Mr amitsha of of uh fadnaves of uh BJP leanings or whatever but the point is that it's the hindutva aspect and here is a party born and bred I mean Mr baltaker is politics is all about that it's about hindutva more radical than even the BJP yeah so how do you cons reconcile with that no again I will again repeat to you uh in terms of their their ideology they were very clear ramandhar you can go back to all my Twitter profile and say if I have ever opposed the Raman there I found it very I had a problem with using the ram mandir issue to create a hate narrative okay that was always my problem uh again uh if


okay that was always my problem uh again uh if you would go back to my um you know I used to address a lot of college people and 370 317 Barbara Congress and this was my 0.2 the 370 is something which was a temporary measure put in place to assimilate people to give them that sense of confidence but we have to start discussing this because the Youth of the country are in other parts of the country is talking about it this was my point of view within the Congress that you know 370 is a point where you all will actually have to work with various stakeholders and have a point of view on recalibrate yeah I would say yes so again on that is something that I totally was in line with uh what she said I thought about it my only thing was about the language and how it was building a narrative so uh when I when I started to work with like I said there was a transition happening their movement they realized that what do they prioritize what is it that


that what do they prioritize what is it that the aspiration of people of Maharashtra matches right now and they they've consciously were moving out of that imagery that the the the painted picture of what it was about shivsena where it is totally the like you said it was extreme right so when this transition was happening uh do you think I don't know uh piled is that the view that most uh political reporters have that when uh the shiv Cena started changing uh its priorities that is when it started losing its you know it's MLA is it's the people who felt that Aditya is not not in line with what baltakare had taught them all that's what shindi says right that's what everybody from that I won't go but okay now here's my question to you many from atal bihari vajpayee's era would totally not agree with the era that they are seeing under SRI Narendra Modi bharti isn't the party transitions are part of any political party any political movement what


are part of any political party any political movement what it began on and what it is talking about are very different functions so um uh and I will always continue to say whatever the current faction is speaking about 2014 we contested separately we can test it separately we got 63 seats but they say 2019 was the Mandate which was given to the BJP that's for the bjpc yes I'll tell you how many arguments they've offered let me tell you it started with mandate um I'll get to that also I'll get to all the reasoning so they are they are prob there are excuses will never end because they have something to say see there has to be some consistency when people constantly say that udhasa was not available Ram mandir first political party which said Supreme Court needs to take a decision on this once he becomes a chief minister first political chief minister after taking the oath going to ayodhya ramandir and also publicly uh donating to that particular Temple ramandar no


uh donating to that particular Temple ramandar no chief minister did that no chief minister did that uh Second about uh hindutva you talk about redeveloping all the temples coming up with the Temple Trail as part of our Manifesto as part of a Manifesto again is it not part of hindutva and which hindutva teaches you that you only have to talk about hateful hindutva which hindutva principles teach you that you can start to backstab you can start to leave parties on uh on on something which is hate driven so I mean that this is quite silly an argument right yeah you can you can uh give different um definitions of hindutva or interpretations of hindutva I get that uh but the point is that you everybody saw them as natural allies the BJP and the shift Cena you went in for an election and that the votes were for a combination of that and then for sure say not to go with the congress party whatever that's all behind closed doors we don't


party whatever that's all behind closed doors we don't know what happened so you might have an interpretation Mr Shah might have another interpretation of what that meeting was all about right let's put that aside right just to go with that do you think anybody voted for the shivsena saying that it will be with the congress party okay so I have a question to you 2014 we contested separately that was the highest Alice you've seen I got okay just allow me to complete just allow me to complete so this argument doesn't hold good and now my second question is is this a first in India didn't we see that happen one minute go back to that argument let's go back to that argument you won right 14 but when you won the Maharashtra election it was together no again again I'll just want to complete the pre-poll Alliance came on a certain understanding at that point in time SRI Amit Shah came flew down to Mumbai did this Alliance if you are talking about winning the


this Alliance if you are talking about winning the on a base of a combination then backstabbing and saying boss we can't do this we never committed it so that that is also something that every political party will have to think of you it's a long thing that it's some kind of a vishwas ghat or yeah to go with the Congress I'm not saying anything about it okay to form you could sit in the opposition and say like this was the understanding of the BJP if they don't come on board then we're not forming governments or counter question to you okay because the BJP couldn't have probably gone with the congression BJP can go to PDP and former government kashmiris are different so haryana is different is haryana different all my little point of view here is and I I will continue to say for political parties now you are saying they came on an alliance right they came on in Alliance on the base of certain commitments made commitments not lived with and now look at


made commitments not lived with and now look at other examples of the alliance is foreign you know the top in in the party very very well was it an easy decision was it a difficult decision was it was it a decision all I can say is that decision came with everyone's consultation within ships absolutely absolutely and I can say it on your channel on your show that he was very much part of the conversation he was part of every minute of that conversation so what caused the change of heart a few years later foreign [Laughter] not realize or did Aditya not realize that there are Rumblings and this is not going to last and that people within his party because so many quit it's not agadas the intelligence was so low that nobody knew yeah I forgot to address that is foreign not having the administrative whatever and we there's a huge problem coming my way so let me resolve that and let's have all hands on board and work towards well that that was your priority you are in touch with


that that was your priority you are in touch with every single District every single Booth whether your organization or uh the government uh you know arms everyone and we managed to do a decent job uh may as a political party uh health ministries without him being accessible um that's that's one part he's a shy person so you know he's shy he's reluctant to meet with people you know I mean you you can you probably have access uh to the takaris people did not have not do not have access to how many have access to Amit huh oh yes are we talking about a lot of people you know in fact the ground level workers who have most access to him if he goes to anywhere and pile it's not just the BJP you don't talk about briefed about it you also okay look at Achilles look at Tejas via them look at uh look at any chief minister look at the badals even they even though they have a lot of security again anybody you're comparing it to a


of security again anybody you're comparing it to a PJ even during covet the point is that even during covert when they were first as a person as a family that's not true because because we they okay there are three important events that happen in uh um party's Foundation day Guru purnima day and the sharara rally day besides that there's constant engagement with every Booth level worker Ward Shaka everything constant I mean once in every 15 days there's a conversation so this I have seen because the sense of commitment to engaging with your political party members is much higher than I saw in even in the congress party let me also tell you that the sense of communication okay what what do a leadership think and what do they want us to do is there even when we stitched up this Alliance and this Alliance was coming out we did speak to all he did speak to all of them so whether we're doing this through online conversations or whatever there was yes there was a period of three months


there was yes there was a period of three months that had three months where he was he had his surgeries back to back two surgeries and after which he he there was a health bubble that was created okay you uh had a very bitter parting with the Congress and you moved to the shiv Cena and then comes this Alliance I mean what did you feel at that time you why would you want to be again in a party which is now going to be no idea which uh I was in a party which was coming in Alliance with the Congress on its own terms and conditions that's point one uh point two was uh point two was that uh even if you saw my um exit letter and my exit letter was not bitter in any way The Parting was bitter but my exit letter or my engagement to them was not my problem was with a couple of people my problem and I must also share this with you that when I joined the shivsena I I was telling sahab I remember that sir


I was telling sahab I remember that sir you know I'm coming after 10 years I have worked with the Congress and of course I've criticized you I've criticized uh aditiji also at times especially about The BMC that I used to be very critical so uh what do I do I can't delete those tweets because I stand by them he said absolutely not you don't need to so there was no bitterness per se with the Congress but yes when the game came into an alliance for me it was about a political party which is seeing a situation like this and my duty would be to stand by my party leadership's decision political decision they took that decision and I have to work in sync with them but they came they all came together on a certain set of understanding which which was working very beautifully so you know uh you were talking about accessibility and all that even within the shiv Cena there there was a little bit of angst when you got nominated uh to uh rajya Sabha


when you got nominated uh to uh rajya Sabha that you know you were you're a lateral entry in a way you know those who have access to the leadership especially with regional parties which are family-run parties and that happened with you so uh did you feel that resentment within your party no I did not in fact someone had gone on record had said something off the Record he also after the uh held the press conference and said that I don't think this was the right thing for me to say and I withdraw those commands but um again uh Raja Sabha I would say came about because of the mahavika sagari coming together the three different parties coming together and uh after I joined the Cena uh we in the month of October we so we were going through Lok Sabha elections I could not contribute much but during the assembly elections no one from the shivsena can say that I did not travel the length and breadth of the state like I said my commitment to my job and


state like I said my commitment to my job and to the decision I've taken is always above 100 so I I traveled across the length and path of uh this state uh whatever the outcome whatever role was given to me I would just take it Hands-On I would say all right I will lead this I will do this I used to come up with ideas and I was grateful that they gave me the platform they allowed me to do what I wanted to and uh heard me out the most important part of being in part of a political system is you feel heard you feel respected for your views many times it was dismissed you know because from my previous experience but here I was being heard I was giving the respect and I was also told that why don't you start working on it and that was a very refreshing change and that made me a lot more confident about creating policy narratives and policy changes so uh I did do all that work uh after the during the elections post elections even with the


the during the elections post elections even with the BMC I started coordinating closely with BMC policies what we can streamline better what we can talk about because I only got to understand the workings of The BMC after I started going there you know meeting people Etc so those were things I've tried to do and um it would be unfair for anyone to say that everything has been given to me on a platter really so in rajya Sabha uh you know you you got suspended in rajya Sabha and one has seen you being very very uh militant about certain things you know protesting and certainly raising the profile of your party uh the numbers that you have in uh in in Parliament you certainly make more noise than than yeah and every time that Priyanka asks a question about you know women or something that has happened to women Ashwini vaishnu has his hands off he's like you know now I have no no I have to answer that yeah so uh you you're very


have to answer that yeah so uh you you're very active in Parliament uh and you know you you got suspended because it's actually rajya Sabha one had seen those debates which were very erudite the the people who would come to rajya Sabha as students we would listen to it to learn from the way they conduct themselves and from the content of their speeches slowly rajya Sabha has degraded I'm sorry to say use the term degraded but it's become like Lok Sabha the noise and the pushing and the shoving did you at any point of time for that incident that happened in Parliament do you regret what happened that day actually I have no regret and I did not do anything and I repeat anything to deserve that suspension very clear about that and uh and that I speak with that conviction because uh if you look at my parliamentary track record I had never stepped into The Well of the house at that point in time till then never stepped into The Well of


time till then never stepped into The Well of the house so you have to understand that a moment was created a moment which was so weird where the business advisory committee had decided that bill is not coming uh revised list of business showed that business coming it was an important issue for me where I thought that you cannot take this decision unilaterally push and shove a bill across on the last day of the parliament and think it's absolutely okay in that one you know and you've allotted just about half an hour one hour for discussion without taking every political party into uh you know consideration or having a discussion when it was already in the business advisory committee decided that it's not coming how can you all make these unilateral changes and that is just not um acceptable to me when you I I will continue to say even if you're in the opposition with one Member of Parliament that Member of Parliament deserves that respect and that voice you can't shove or mute everybody and that is what


can't shove or mute everybody and that is what just got me to go inside The Well of the house and protest about it and I was and I I must say I was very careful about uh you know they were going on giving me that that bill in my hand to tear off he said no black people you know I'll tear off the blank paper oh God that you learned from Rahul Gandhi didn't you know that that came from somebody who was charged up and I honestly I was just standing in that uh particular uh you know space and I was just going on saying that this is not right I wouldn't have even gone into the will of rather and it's just a day prior I must share this the prior I had seen Pratap Singh bajwaji get on the table and throw the file at uh I was shocked I was shocked but he was not suspended and it's it was it's your first term in Parliament so for you it must have been you know


Parliament so for you it must have been you know like my sisters joked with me when I came out I was like all anger and fury and of course that became a meme and everybody was like of course and I controlled it actually if I look at it I'm like oh my God I'm so angry but I had gone inside the chamber also and I had had this entire shouting face that you can't do this you can't mess around with my career like this I have been the one of the most committed 100 attendance hundred percent whatever you can and there was no reason for you to in hindsight do a suspension and foreign so anyway that is another thing but when I came out and whatever happened happened and I took the decision that I've come I've come to spend my time in the Parliament and contribute that's why I used to tweet out my zero hour every day though it was never acknowledged but I used to tweet it out because I'm committed to my work and


tweet it out because I'm committed to my work and I will continue raising those you know in that day uh subsequently so many people got uh suspended I want to find out what did Anil Desai do how did he get suspended exactly life foreign sooner or later because many people told us that because we had suspended 12 of the mlas in the assembly they thought they'd do the same with us in the rajya Sabha they did what they wanted to it's part of the political uh process or decision making whatever they did they did but uh I know and I have no regret so you know um many times there are women politicians uh who get attacked in a similar manner attacked in the sense that uh their aggression is and the whole thing becomes about women but women get trolled on social media women get more uh attacked on you know about their Parliament behavior and stuff but women don't stand with each other yeah that's uh why is it that women parliamentarians don't they they join in in


that women parliamentarians don't they they join in in that uh celebration of a woman being attacked why does that they don't join in any woman being attacked let me be uh very clear that uh there's no supports traditional I I and I and it's a matter of regret for me because you know when I started out as a parliamentarian I thought I'll come up with a caucus where women rise above their political differences and stand up for their gender so you know women supporting women is one thing what has happened in the Parliament and I realized and it kind of uh it makes me hope that someday we'll I'll be able to explain it to others for example my own case where I have all whether it was shy if China was getting trolled or whatever I would stand up for her um anybody get enrolled or attacked for an issue which has nothing to do with their political ideas and I would I would definitely stand up but hypocrisy I will learn stand up for if you are


hypocrisy I will learn stand up for if you are not speaking up for other women and then you expect support for for women that I will definitely not stand up for you have to make this above your politics unfortunately most of the women in the parliament are are Unfortunately they think that if they go beyond that daira of their political party they might face some consequences because it becomes so vicious like when is attacked there is no way that we see either sushmita Dev or anybody else coming up if uh if smriti Irani is attacked then there's no way you will of course you won't you certainly won't wanna see we have a history you have a history I find it and hypocrisy on her front I will definitely say because uh she took somebody to court because that person called her a very derogatory word and I totally agree with the her taking the call because she's empowered enough and we should do this but when I remember and I've never ever mentioned it two things


I remember and I've never ever mentioned it two things which Hit me hard a woman who had a problem with her derogatory word being used for her felt absolutely no guilt in saying foreign to a question that she was asked you know when I had moved from the Congress to ship Cena she was asked a particular question and it will never go out of my mind because you sang yeah I sang a song it became popular so that's basically that politics you you picked up a don't use it I did not use did I use delegate rewards yeah I did not the fact that you picked up her see this is what I'm saying about smriti Rani is that even till date uh when a channel refers to her they say um TV actress turned politician it's that you know it's a subtle way of putting down honestly my point is just this when you picked up that song it was see since she's not your I'm giving you her point of view because it's not a


you her point of view because it's not a TV debate but then I will just say this that there's always something like that like Mawa when she does something it you will see that nobody else will because they have a history so listen there's a history for everyone yeah I do Embrace that history many times people tell me that oh you are that turn quote history it was not supposed to be that way so I I if I was someone as famous as that's so Delhi no though you're from Mumbai it's like a successful successful television actress Legacy of work here yeah no she doesn't run away from itself is putting down that people do I don't know I wouldn't look at it as a put down but uh if that that but you calling somebody a Gane Wali is fine with you you know you pulling down um people is absolutely fine that's that's an unfair that's an unfair uh advantage that do you think you can change uh at some point of time yeah absolutely I'll


uh at some point of time yeah absolutely I'll be happy to work with any woman Member of Parliament or or for that matter activist or whatever who I have a deferring point of view from to be able to speak about the gender issues see I'll uh while I'm speaking about uh politicians a pile I mean you you know that it even in journalism women journalists don't stand with each other uh in in law they don't stand with each other it's like they you know they feel threatened by other women journalists I don't understand why it happens but it does happen and it more so happens when you reach a certain level when you are at the mid levels make your share of the pie larger rather than fighting over the same share of the pie for example why are you even doing this why are you inviting all this hate whatever whatever and and you know feeling it is it is with every single Indian and that only platforms like movies or television industry you can talk about women


like movies or television industry you can talk about women who are empowered without them having to have compromise on anything it's just the ability to be where they are so uh my only thing is that or share of the quitting was not the option for me because I felt I don't want to be a footnote in history I want to be someone who came from the outside world and made an impact uh I don't know if I made an impact or whatever um but so I started this initiative that let's bring in undergrad girls let's teach them how to intern with members of parliament women members of parliament and uh get them an idea of what policy and politics is even if they don't want to get into politics so you would encourage women to get into politics definitely even if someone every time someone asks me and any girl young woman asks me I tell them this is the best time for you to be in politics because suddenly every political party has come to understand there are women women who are


has come to understand there are women women who are voting their minds they are coming out in larger numbers to vote and that's a Constance you have to cater to unfortunately politics works like that you'll if you're catering to that particular constancy you will get the results of it so even if a political party is looking at reaping benefits out of more women coming out use that opportunity but do you think do you think most of these political parties just use this merely as a token I would always look at the glasses half full rather than half empty my struggles aside if my struggle encourages more women to come into the system and political parties are talking about from the Red Fort is talking about having more women and empowered women then I think it's a very positive sign for women to step into uh platforms like these and it's encouraging to see that many women are looking at it as something that they could try there is also a time when you know when women were