you are either in the prime minister's house and the day you leave the prime minister's house very often you are in adiala jail he has used uh Islam as a political tool I would rather have a dumb guy like Imran than an intelligent guy or a cunning guy like jawl haq I don't see uh you know why I want somebody who makes Pakistan a strong prosperous country you know we are the same people you know all that nonsense which happens and then this this familiarity politicians the pakistanis are in a very bad spot right now partly because now the Chinese are no longer even observing diplomatic niceties with them Pakistan's case you know they have this belief that they are too important to failures they can't reform their own system I want somebody who divides the pakistanis like Imran has done I want somebody who destroys their economy like Imran has done I want somebody who destroys their foreign policy like Imran has done Namaste Jahin welcome to


like Imran has done Namaste Jahin welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today we shall discuss Pakistan I know many of you will say that why Pakistan we should be focusing on China China is our main adversary and not Pakistan but let me tell you Pakistan is a potent military threat to India even when it's down and out so today my guests are super special because they know all there is to know about Pakistan I have with me tilak deveshar and sushant sareen two domain Specialists who have appeared on the podcast before tilak devishar is an author of three books on Pakistan and is currently a member of the Indian National Security Advisory board he worked in the research and Analysis Wing before superannuating and sushant Serene have appeared on several panels discussing terrorism and Pakistan sushant is with the Observer Research Foundation he's written extensively on Pakistan and appeared on TV debates sushant is an avid user of social media and his take on India's strategic challenges


social media and his take on India's strategic challenges is sharp and insightful but before I begin my conversation with my two guests here is a short primer on what happened in Pakistan in the past week I know many of you would be aware of the events that are unfolding out there but for those who don't know here is a short primer Pakistan's former prime minister and legendary cricketer Imran Khan has been arrested he's expressed apprehension that he will be assassinated he's also warned the people of Pakistan that the country is hurtling towards economic and political chaos and in the week before that the foreign minister of Pakistan bilawal Bhutto zardari was in India to participate in a conference of the Shanghai cooperation organization the first Pakistani foreign minister to visit India since 2011. as expected the SEO faded into the background and all media attention was on bilateral ties India and Pakistan and needless to say the visit did not not go well though Bhutto has claimed it to


not go well though Bhutto has claimed it to be a success there was some sharp takedown by the Indian foreign minister so now let's head to the conversation with sushant Serene and tilak deveshar thank you sushant thank you tilak I hope I have your permission to address you by your first names and uh it's good to have you both back and in you know in our production jargon is known as RPGs your Repeat Performance guest not the other RPG I want to know one thing first yes sushant I am sitting with a top notch journalist and I'm sitting with a top knob spy and you have picked this deal for doing a podcast on Pakistan did you know in advance that Imran is going to be arrested the two of you I knew conspiracy who didn't know he's the only person I'm wearing a black shirt because I protest the arrest of Imran Khan this man has always been saying in case you don't follow his social media sushant is like always no


follow his social media sushant is like always no the best thing to have to India is Imran Khan becoming prime minister of Pakistan not him sitting in a wheelchair is the best thing that has happened to us he does not even accept your agenda Pakistan okay viewers listeners written four books and not three books he's already finished the fifth one it's on Afghanistan your books okay backyard but fifth Province okay let's get to the meat of the story uh that uh the podcast was supposed to be about bilaval and now it's turned out to be about a Imran Khan did you expected both of you that Imran Khan would be arrested what do you think Mr desha he was waiting to be arrested I mean you know this was on the cards I think he's been picked up in 120 cases he's been escaping by the skin of his teeth every time he gets bail in six Bale in eight Bale and you know he saw the Judiciary being extremely kind his crowd


saw the Judiciary being extremely kind his crowd supporters came all over and prevented the police from entering his house today so this was done to happen any time whether he gets disqualified first or whether he gets arrested first over both are going to happen today that's why the Rangers there were so many of them and the Rangers were a stronger Force than the police so they made sure that they're not going to get sidetracked by any police or any crowds therefore they just whisked him away in that van and people say that he was being pushed and all that I think the Ranger's idea was to get this guy out of this place and take him to a location where his supporters didn't do not connect but uh everybody knows do you think that it was wrong on the part of imran's supporters to prevent it because look we all know what happened to zadari in prison we know what happened to nawash Sharif in prison what happened with


nawash Sharif in prison what happened with Bhutto and with the others right I mean let's let's not talk go there let's talk about the brutality which zardari has faced is I think his tongue was cut or something like that right what happened with uh Nawaz Sharif and with Benazir with so many of them I mean I can she was assassinated zial haq was killed zulfikar Ali Bhutto was assassinated uh before that was shot dead so you know we can go into an entire list of what happens with former Prime Ministers and presidents they go foreign that is that you are either in the prime minister's house and the day you leave the prime minister's house very often you are in radialis jail so they Shuffle between those two places it sometimes there is an interagnum like in imran's case that you know it's taken a few months almost in here that he's going to jail but Shahid went to jail before that reduces Sharif has


went to jail before that reduces Sharif has gone to jail benezid just escaped which he went into Exile went to jail so jail and adyala jail and prime minister's house is power for the course for these guys Imran hasn't gone to adiala not yet not yet there will be a time for that also so he's been taken to Rahul Pindi I don't know where he's been taken he won't be taken to jail they have to produce him before the courts then they'll have to take his remand but the fact that he's been taken to Pindi and nowhere else yeah I mean Pindi is significant isn't it but Prince doesn't mean does not mean GHQ well what else does it mean okay I mean pretty is completely no GHQ but Pindi also means that he for those who don't know uh about uh you know there are some uh you know overseas Indians who also watch the podcast who don't understand these uh complexities sometimes and the Indians are watching


these uh complexities sometimes and the Indians are watching it get very irritated but to just to explain what does Rawalpindi mean Pindi is something that we call what does Rawalpindi mean what does jail in Rawalpindi and what is GHQ the the all-encompassing influence so so Rahul Bindi is basically where the General headquarters of the Pakistan Army is it's the it's the Hub of the Pakistan Army uh apara is in Islamabad which is the headquarters of the isi Islam when people talk as Islamabad and Pindi what they are talking about is the where the civilians are based which is uh Islamabad and Pindi is when they when they want to use shorthand or euphemisms for the Pakistan Army they talk about Pindi but in this particular case he has been taken to Pindi uh and I don't know what is exactly is the case under which he has been booked but I think he's been taken to Pindi because it must have something to do with the Punjab government


must have something to do with the Punjab government Punjab police because if you are going to show him arrested in Pindi and you are going to produce him before a court in Pindi then the jurisdiction is of one of the Lahore high court and then of the local Punjab Administration unlike if you pick him up in Islamabad and present him in court in Islamabad then it becomes the uh Islamabad high court and they they act the the administration of Islamabad which is like the national capital territory so the case is al-qadir trust which is that big dubious Tycoon was a case in the UK and they recovered 190 million pounds for him and added it over to the Pakistan government who they British authorities in a serious crimes case or something Imran Khan returned that money to malikrias after having voted from the UK in lieu of that malikrias allotted him a huge plot of land in which he built a university Mass abused plot of land and only 34 students in the University


plot of land and only 34 students in the University obviously it was a kickback and then his wife Bushra baby you know she sort of bargained to get a ring it was a famous diamond ring she got from Malik riyaz you know so this was insisting on five carats not three characters this is a quid pro quo so in that case he didn't get bail and he was charged by this for the national accountability Bureau and I think it is this particular case full details are not available it is this case that he is being picked up on but so initially I tried to keep a track of the cases but then there are so many 121 I don't even know which case he's booked in anymore and what the status that was what he came right Mr Clean he said he wanted to clean up the system that there was so much corruption and he was the quintessential like what we call in India the Ahmad he was the common man you know who didn't come from some political family


man you know who didn't come from some political family like the bhutos and like Sharif Sharif Kurt of course they say that he's not actually a political family he's made himself into a political family but you know he he didn't come with all that baggage he came as a cricket icon and then he's become part of the system the very same system which he was fighting against isn't it yeah also is he even even before that even though he presented himself Mr Clean look at his party PTI has got funding from prohibited sources that's another case that is going one sources and Here sign checks is fully aware of the fact that this money was not legislative legitimate money which a political party should have got so you know even before he came into Power his uh party is Tainted but how do you then explain his popularity with the people you know he's he's by far the most popular politician in Pakistan today somehow he's it's like Teflon nothing sticks as far as uh you know even


nothing sticks as far as uh you know even if by law he's broken the law people don't believe that you can see the outpouring yeah so I think there are a couple of reasons for his popularity one is he has a very strong support among the middle class in the lower middle class lawyers crazy officials but one of the reasons is that he speaks good English so uh because these people are not part of the traditional system you know they don't vote a biradari system the traditional political parties professionals okay so they have veered towards the PTI then the youth you see the youth is about 44 percent you know of the population between the age of 18 to 35 voting population they have moved in a very big way to Imran Khan he has a massive social media sense and presence no other party even gets the social media organization with Imran Khan has built up and then you know his own persona when he speaks he can be speaking a total lie people tend to believe it


speaking a total lie people tend to believe it and they feel he said right even if he breaks misquotes a religious saying people say anything the way he appears in court masses of supporters you know he doesn't come if the hearing is 11 o'clock as if he's a movie star and the judges are waiting for him he'll just take a U-turn or you know he even when he's caught look at the sex tapes look at the kind of money favors that he's given to his friends his wife's corruption all these have been documented proved and shown to the people it makes no difference what's your take why is he uh so popular sushant look I think one I I think you need a sociologist to figure this out on how Cults are formed because what he has is not political support what he has is a cult right because for all the reasons that Mr diveshwar is saying that you know the fact that he's been found out the fact that he has he has done complete 180


the fact that he has he has done complete 180 degree turns from what he was in opposition what so for example uh just uh yesterday some people started you know giving out how this fellow has been had been saying that look if you are taking pot shots of the army you are damaging the country and stuff like that you know you are destroying the morale if you're targeting the Army Chief you are destroying the morale of the forces and you know stuff like that he said this now that he's in opposition he's doing exactly what he was raving and renting against and his supporters lap it up they lapped it up then they lap it up now right now this is a kind this is something that no matter what you say no matter what you do no matter how many u-turns you make we love you I think this is a psychological disorder it if there's nothing rational about it right yeah now in terms of his competence he's proved himself to be utterly incompetent as an


proved himself to be utterly incompetent as an administrator he's proved himself to be corrupt uh he has proved himself to uh be a megalomaniac right uh he has he has cultivated favorites to whom he has bestowed all sorts of favors so he has done everything uh which the others have done in some cases at a bigger scale and yet because he has that cult everybody seems to swear by him but the important thing is uh where is that cult coming from and my own sense is that what is different between Imran and other leaders in Pakistan is the support base that he is drawing now in his case the support base is actually the upper middle class and the upper classes in Punjab these are the most well connected people uh you know just a couple of days back apparently a serving brigadier's wife was arrested because of you know she was an Imran Khan supporter this is a serving army officers wife who was picked up whereas he is he's say he's taking on


up whereas he is he's say he's taking on the Army he's taking on the establishments but the wives are supporting families he has huge support in the families serving and retired support of the Judiciary the reason one of the tapes that are going to come out has come out is the wife of the Chief Justice yeah talking to Imran Khan and says that and the other so that is the level of support that he has so now you know this is what I can't understand because like uh tilak you says that you said that it's the lower class the lower middle class the middle class and the youth you are saying it's not just them it's the upper middle class and the middle class so basically everybody no so that means these are the people who are being ignored by the traditional you see the traditional Pakistan parties are feudal parties look at the PPP okay you know they have a huge look at in Punjab you know yeah traditional parties the biradari thejat you know that


traditional parties the biradari thejat you know that kind of a thing okay the urban classes or the people who feel neglected who can't fit into this kind of a traditional political mold he he's tapped into them through his own personal through massive social media look at his social media acumen you know he has uh this today he had pre-recorded his arrest and what the people should do he's incited people to come out and protest massively but he's also said I saw that uh so he says that he calls The Establishment he says and I'd rather die than live in a Pakistan uh which is ruled by them this is another thing that he keeps repeating many times over that he is going to live or die in Pakistan whatever it is alluding to the others who have left and gone no no that is one part of it but there is another part to it I think a lot of his cluster and his bravado comes from the fact that he actually did not think that he would be picked up


actually did not think that he would be picked up I think yesterday for the first time he must have got a hint because he although he'd crossed that red line earlier as well uh I think the tweets which he did yesterday where he was directly named the uh one of the top is General isi guys uh he named him and he implicated him you know accused him of you know planning to murder him and stuff like that and then the Army the ispr came out with a strong very strong treatment and then of course you know the others who are sucking up to the is uh the the Army Shabbat Sharif and the others they kind of piled on and you know kind of a thing I think that kind of crossed the red line so maybe he was a little tentative today but otherwise he has felt that he's Untouchable that the Army can't touch him right and I think I remember 2007 you know this is just on the day that Musharraf had done this is in November I


that Musharraf had done this is in November I was there in Lahore that night and on that particular night I was called for a dinner I won't name names whose house it was but one of Imran Khan's closest Associates and a family member of his was also out there and Imran had been picked up and uh he had escaped actually he had escaped he was in hiding and these guys were saying they were all discussing they knew I'm an Indian of course but they were all discussing uh how in how to orchestrate Imran Khan's surrender so I said but why does he want to surrender so they were shocked that no no he has to surrender I said why you know he should remain in hiding and make a monkey of the regime uh but he was desperate to surrender and then when he surrendered he was first man handled by the jamate islami Goons then he was handed over to the cops he went to jail within four days he


cops he went to jail within four days he was screaming and shouting and you know crying and he wanted out because he couldn't handle jail so this Bluff and Bluster which is coming from him is just that once they start administering him the treatment I think Nawaz sharif's daughter was probably far braver You know despite being a woman in a country like Pakistan being mistreated you know they putting cameras on her giving her no privacy yeah all of that she went through it and you know she's very feisty I'm not sure if this guy can handle this plus he has other problems if he doesn't get his fixes up in the evening he's climbing the wall okay this is another thing that they say about Imran Khan that you know there are so many stories about Imran Khan is he purely a drug addict he said we can look after him very well in jail give him all the Comforts but we can't give him the one thing that he wants so he's


him the one thing that he wants so he's going to have withdrawal symptoms in jail absolutely yeah and he won't have hair dye to die and he won't get Kali Dal anyone he won't get okay that is another story in itself okay so I'm not going into the details Family Channel so I'm not going into the details of what Imran Khan does with kalidal I suggest you please Google and see what happens and what reham Khan his ex-wife had to say about his Fascination for kalidal um so let's get on uh as I said about uh Imran I've been to his house uh to interview him once and I was kind of you know yes I've been there and uh you know the the people around him are all these youngsters and they don't they don't sound like pakistanis they sound like from some other planet America I mean this was or more than a decade ago when he was just about you know getting into politics but he was he was it was quite clear


politics but he was he was it was quite clear that there was an agenda have it all those kids who were there around very attractive young people around him this cult figure phenomenon is extremely important because what happens is that people have got completely blinded by his personality they they don't believe anything negative that comes out of him or even about zardaari Mr Ten Percent all these things stuck but nothing seems to stick on Imran Khan a strong social media presence you know in today's world the youth listen to social media they listen to his tweets listen to his video podcast and he is created this Machinery of people who saturation I mean you're in the media you know the importance of social media the PPP and PT and the pmln are no match for this a lot of these people are dual Nationals you know people who surround him they really don't have the stakes in Pakistan so that is one and the fact that because of his popularity because of his cult he has started believing that


because of his cult he has started believing that he's above the law he started believing that whatever he says is the gospel truth the fellow who was lynched for blasphemy two days ago in mardan yeah he was a PTA Maulana who said that I no he I believe he said that what I feel for uh Imran is what I feel for the prophet yeah that was enough for him to be lynched can you imagine yeah can you imagine I mean he was a Maulana you should have known what he was saying he didn't think he was saying anything wrong on the spot he was trampled over beaten and killed yeah and he has tapped into this religious thing also very well you know every now and then he comes up with he tries to portray himself you know one day in I remember one speech and I was shocked that the religious parties didn't pick it up he said that uh I think the prophet mentioned that he is very popular even amongst the families and people


is very popular even amongst the families and people in the families worship him a lot and he said look at me all the Army families are my supporters and even making that kind of a comparison and nobody picked up on this and said what because of his popularity because in every speech of his uh whenever he starts talking about Islam he always tries to draw some analogy albeit oblique uh with the prophet uh and then of course he has used uh Islam as a political tool and you remember when he was coming for that long march uh in in March our containers one of his Sidekicks was telling him now sir it is time to put some Islamic touch give it an Islamic touch so then he started talking about Islam and a former speaker I won't hold that against him because I've seen that happen even in in India when you feel that the ground then he starts yeah but then uh let's bring this to the Indian context uh you have written so often and you've said this in several


written so often and you've said this in several TV uh appearances sushan that he's the best thing to happen to India why do you see this do you really want Imran as a prime minister again who's like totally unhinged yeah but look who does he damage he doesn't damage us he damages Pakistan Pakistan is not a friendly country it's a hostile country uh it's it's always been an amical to India's interests uh and if they if they elect a leader and swear by a leader who destroys them what better for me so uh when you look at his economic policies when you look at his uh his foreign policy how he alienated every single one of Pakistan's friends whether it was the Saudis whether it was the Americans whether it was the Chinese he alienated everybody right uh what can be better than that for me and I think Mr Modi was smart because although they they had made the Outreach much earlier to the gulf but I think this they were smart that they doubled down


think this they were smart that they doubled down on it and look at the relations that India has with many of the gulf countries where Pakistan had a run of the place the OIC earlier no not not UIC but I'm not because OIC has you know countries like turkey and others who are rabidly anti-india and pardon my language on this but I I feel very strongly about it my producer loves it no I I feel very strongly about turkey because the Turks have been sponsoring a lot of trouble in Kashmir yeah they have been in they have been instigating trouble in Kashmir they have been carrying out a lot of that slick propaganda campaign comes from Turkey so they have they have never been nice to us and I see no reason why I should be nice to them but the best of relations that we've had with turkey you know uh there was this uh one uh visit of the foreign secretary when I was there I think it was conversible if I'm not mistaken


I think it was conversible if I'm not mistaken we're covering it in Istanbul and they were like you know those foreign you know that that distinction they make that these are our brothers Blood Brothers but India can be a friend so for a friend you can cut off at any point of time like in Bhai The Blood Brothers you can't yes brothers are actually probably worse look at Google history mughalsword basically Turks in some ways that is not a problem but but on the most you know most seriously I I feel very strongly about turkey so it's not OIC what I'm talking about is the Arab states okay the UAE uh Oman you look at Saudi Arabia Pakistan had a run of the place not Imran alienated all of them guys are he's really dumb in something from all of that perspective I don't see uh you know why I want somebody who makes Pakistan a strong prosperous country I want somebody who divides the pakistanis like Imran has done I want


the pakistanis like Imran has done I want somebody who destroys their economy like Imran has done I want somebody who destroys their foreign policy like Imran has done I want somebody who destroys uh you know the Primacy of the army the only institution that had kept the country together I want somebody like Imran who has done that he has destroyed the Army I want somebody who destroys their security by sucking up to the Taliban and saying that they have broken the shackles of slavery he is my dream if I was in the job tilak devish were handled I would have wanted somebody like him to become Prime Minister I would have sponsored somebody like him to be prime minister of Pakistan so he's an answer to your dreams before you get on to your point I want to know this that why didn't raw sponsor Imran Khan to be prime minister of Pakistan I mean you're not even W doesn't do these things the ISR was already doing a good job so why should


ISR was already doing a good job so why should I this was a joint venture of sorts right so you know I agree with what he says please ignore it he's just like kind of just brushes off he will not say whatever so I I agree with what sushant is saying about it that eyesight did a better job than raw could have done why should we when they're already you know as Napoleon said If a person is uh you know committing suicide why should I stop them okay but I agree with sushant about all the nakunas all the weaknesses of Imran Khan and what he's doing to Pakistan is Excel except I would rather have an intelligent enemy rather than a loose cannon like Imran Khan on the other side because you don't know this guy is unpredictable you don't know how he's going to act so a smarter enemy is better than a foolish enemy that is the only caveat I have otherwise I agree with him 110 what he's done to Pakistan since 47 no


him 110 what he's done to Pakistan since 47 no other prime minister has done and especially the way he has damaged the Pakistan Army so much so the current Army Chief to damage the Pakistan Army though good enough for us it's good for us so I'm saying all these things are on the positive yet My worry is that as a foolish man you don't know what he will do as far as purely as India is concerned he's you know sort of ruined his relationship with China Saudi Arabia agreed all that but when it comes to India you know he made a resort to something you know which I would rather have an intelligent enemy what no what can they resort to no they do cross-border they do everything I mean when kargil happened you had an intelligent person like Nawaz Sharif sitting out there no but the entire planning of Cargill around him those three other people the infamous four they thought they can get it skid through the whole process and I think Nawaz


skid through the whole process and I think Nawaz Sharif written about extensively about this in my book I've read it yes so why Sharif was brought in at times and I think Nawaz Sharif I mean this was the best sort of analysis was he probably didn't realize the full implications of it but he thought that if he reached Srinagar I'll take the credit for it yeah I don't believe this I just believe when he goes to GHQ and he says when are you going to give us a Kashmir and then he goes to Pakistan occupied Kashmir which the pakistanis called Azad Kashmir he goes there and he says when are you going to deliver kashmiri and the chief so you know this thing I don't know what he was saying is what you're saying is that when the Bas yatra took place when Mr he was already on board that was the level of deception I don't think so Nawaz Sharif is capable okay so I'll join issue with him so


capable okay so I'll join issue with him so I'll let's agree to differ on this yeah but I'll join I want to know on both these things see one when you talk about an intelligent enemy I would rather have a dumb guy like Imran than an intelligent guy or a cunning guy like hmm okay a lot of our problems which we have today are done by somebody like us who was very sweet very he was sweetness personified you know he was sweetness to a fault and this man would actually come out he was the President Chief martial law administrator he was the Army chief he would come out of the house to receive somebody and see somebody off he was he would lay himself out for people and everybody was flowed and the moment you turned your back he would knife you right that's what he did to us every time but why talk about us this is what he did visited him totally all this way but not all prime ministers have misread their army but our problem as


ministers have misread their army but our problem as a system this problem in the Indian system is that we get taken in by this these sweet nothings okay so one I would rather have an Imran Khan who abuses us left right and Center so at least that these guys are on their toes rather than somebody you know who's all sweetness personified and he fools you and you give in because that is your basically your character there's a danger there is do you think Imran Khan is a fool and therefore you don't take him seriously no no I no so one second then that is why people like you and I come in no that we may need to make them take certain things seriously the other problem where I disagree with you is you know I don't see any reason why anybody in India uh starts cutting slack for the Pakistani politician you know we keep saying KR no he was not entirely in charge or it's his political compulsion that he has to come to India


his political compulsion that he has to come to India and abuse Us in India because that's his political compulsion I don't care if he comes into my country and he abuses me he abuses my prime minister he abuses uh he he he wants to clear my country apart uh and he does it in a very nice sweet pansy accent I don't care I don't care about it look at the recent visit yeah just because he said foreign right I will be a good host but if you are not a good guest I am not going to be a good host I think that is unexceptionable I just want to make one thing about Bilal the most dangerous statement that he made when he went back to when he told the park journalist in Goa somebody asked him about G20 he said of course we oppose G20 in Srinagar at that time when it is being taken place we'll teach them such a lesson now this was the mask totally slipped all this while he was telling the


totally slipped all this while he was telling the G20 for SEO and he was telling the Indian media terrorism we are doing getting rid of terrorism because of our sake not because of Indian author and this is what he actually feels the mofa ministry Foreign Affairs Pakistan has tried to deny it and soft title it but they cannot get over the fact that he said at the appropriate time we will teach them such a lesson they will not forget so now you tell me that can if God forbid any attack happens can you turn around and say that the political establishment didn't know this was the military establishment is clear you can't in this case it is absolutely this is just what I was trying to draw a parallel between what uh bilawal said what Benazir has said before that when she said when she was talking about assassinating a sitting governor in Jammu and Kashmir so you scratch them a little bit each and every one of them you cannot say deniability it is true you


of them you cannot say deniability it is true you know why they carry the curse of Lucky Bhai um because his uh grandfather's father Shana was he married which Buddha you need to explain now he fell in love with a Hindu dancing girl and married her way back in 1924 I think it was then converted her to Islam and she took the name of kurshid because she came from a humble background and these were big feudals so she was badly treated mother was a Hindu yeah okay and born Hindu born in Hindu then she was converted in the feudal family they looked down upon her and didn't treat her well because she was a new convert not only that yeah and you know but not of this thing huh yeah was growing up he was aware of this his mother being mistreated and he had a huge complex there because she was a Hindu therefore to cover his Hindu Origins partial Hindu Origins he became vehemently anti-india vehemently and the


he became vehemently anti-india vehemently and the India you know when um Khan said that he will come back to Pakistan and help building the bond uh they're saying what to bang the table he said now I will show these Hindu bastards sorry to use that similarly with venison same thing is with bilaval you know they are insecure about the Hindu blood in them and therefore they have to be even more anti-india than let's say the sharifs so how come Imran Khan doesn't have that baggage of niyazi he's not defensive like what you are saying uh bilawal is about his Hinduism the sindhis and then this Hindu lineage Imran Khan doesn't have the sharifs don't have that no I'm talking I'm not talking about Sharif I'm talking about the sharifs always why do you think Imran Khan never says I'm Imran Khan right but the sharifs will always add nyazi to his name and even because Prime Minister Modi said that


name and even because Prime Minister Modi said that huh yeah but but yeah but Imran you know in a sense partly given his background uh you know at one level it's irritating for him that why are you associating me with that guy I'm you know he's not even my relative really uh so it's irritating for him but at another level he it's not a baggage that he carries that I am also a nyazi so I must avenge what happened to her nyasi I don't think that is the case but Imran has always been an islamist and if you hear what Mr G partha sathi when he was I think he was counseling what he was told out there about how Imran Khan thinks that when he is playing Cricket against India it's a Jihad you know so that that involved mindset has and you know all of them and what pisses me off is you know when people like sidhu and gavaskar and others oh Imran is such a good friend he's


others oh Imran is such a good friend he's not your friend yeah he's he does it because it suits him at some level these are not friends he is not your friend but you know try and explain it how do you explain this to a sidhu I mean you know he has that islamist streak in him he wanted the Taliban to open an office in Pakistan you know and the TTP when the Taliban when they were negotiating GTP they nominated Imran Khan as one of the interlocutors with the government of Pakistan and he said that will be your voice I will be your Ambassador yeah you know we're very early on in his career he was the understudy of Hamid Gul hmm right and everybody knows what Hamid gold stand stood for right is the guy who was patronizing Imran Khan and and when he was forming his party and he was moving forward on it it was people like so they also tried to Robin this fellow Abdul satar and then Eddie did not


fellow Abdul satar and then Eddie did not want to be a part of it and as he felt threatened by what these guys were trying to do he tried to stay away from the public he tried to stay away from it but the fact of the matter remains that these guys you know Imran has always had that streak in him and uh that is that is why when you know when I see many of these Indian cricketers Old-Timers fawn over him my friend Imran and all hey you guys are so dumb yeah Imran Khan uh who was this flamboyant in the 80s who would come he was you know he was with photographed with I think zeenat Aman if I'm not mistaken and with all the Bollywood celebrities he was the same done it was just camouflage or he didn't have this camouflage because he was a Playboy he found his Playboy image and what he was doing in England a very convenient thing to do tell me now about beloved let's talk about


do tell me now about beloved let's talk about that and what he did when he came to GOA that how you know he comes in there and he tries to be this foreign minister uh did did India underestimate him that he came with an agenda I think I don't think so the India especially The Indian in the Indian media didn't understand or didn't assess what his agenda was he wasn't addressing is he he's coming for the SEO meeting he's not coming for indo-park relations there was nothing he could have said or done to further indo-park relations all his messaging was back to Pakistan and I think the message that he was sending was specially to Rahul Pindi to the GHQ but look I can be a much better interlocutor for against India I've Suave I'm articulate and I'll be much better than Imran Khan so he was giving he was messaging Rawalpindi he's already done that he was there in New York and he uh he yeah abusive language yeah but that is one


uh he yeah abusive language yeah but that is one thing again the Prime Minister but here in India he articulated all that the Army wanted to hear he articulated about terrorism he articulated about India going has to go back from 5th August 2019 walk back in case they want to have a job with Pakistan India in fact it's just the other way and then he talked about the only thing I was surprised he didn't talk about was Balochistan he didn't mention that at all because that didn't suit his agenda yeah what I'm trying to say is that when Sharma Sheikh happened they put Balochistan on the table right and after that I would have thought that he would talk about that also that's the only thing that he didn't talk about when you look at the Sharma Sheikh declaration and you look at the text of what is written I don't even I flew into a rage at that point of time simply At The Mention of the word Balochistan but what is written in that declaration the the


but what is written in that declaration the the what is written is that the prime minister of Pakistan told the prime minister of India of certain developments in Balochistan could you can tell me about developments no there was nothing more than that declaration you you brought the the fact is that um was brought on the table and India said fine you have something to talk we can talk about it the point is that at that point of time below and we should have continued to talk about Balochistan subsequently yeah why did we not do it yeah when the Prime Minister we're trying to bring equivalence they're trying to equate themselves with you know we keep talking about terrorism which is documented they talk about samjhota equating it with 26. but that's also because the treachery happened from the Indian side right so that's what I'm saying because you wanted to do some political Point scoring within India and you diluted Your Case by implicating other people kept on doing that anyway that was in the


people kept on doing that anyway that was in the past now if we talk about bilaval if he was trying if he was trying to send a message back to the army that I am a better interlocutor I can play the Pakistan card better than an Imran Khan can does he need to say that Pakistan is already I mean Pakistan establishment has already burnt its bridges with Imran so they are not looking for an option to Imran isn't it yeah of course they are they are now now what is their option right now the option is Imran is out either they pick up somebody from his party who will be subservient and you know but I I don't think they're going to touch PTI right now or they go for somebody in the pmln right but if it's going to be miyazab coming back Nawaz Sharif they day I think I'm going to be very allergic to that so it's either Shabbat Sharif they would be very allergic to even Maryam coming to the four or


allergic to even Maryam coming to the four or the option is that if you go into a next election you have a very split verdict The People's Party manages to get about 70 80 seats about 45 odd in in sin another 10 15 In This Place South Punjab of smattering from here and there about five seven in Balochistan they are in kind of pole position because you will again have a kind of a coalition government coming into Power which suits the Army also right and then when you have a formulation like that coming into Power then why not below Alberto as the Prime Minister you know young connects with the international media connects with the International Community speaks in this nice pansy accent which everybody likes these days so all of that you know it's called metrosexual okay I'm my vocabulary is limited but thanks for correcting me okay so he you you know speaks in this very metrosexual accident and all of that so so one is that strategy of his now what is he trying to do he


of his now what is he trying to do he is basically trying to take a leaf out of the book of his grandfather and his mother they have also used the same template you abuse India to uh you know yeah you know gain political Capital within the country right Bhutto did it after 65 war and you know everybody swore by Buddha when he alleged a sellout in Kashmir uh Benazir did it later when we're going to Kashmir this guy has started doing it now so it's it's very transparent for anybody who looks at it very carefully so one is that he's he's making that sales pitch to these guys the other is that he is projecting himself that look I came to India and I abused India and India look the thing is that you know and the pakistanis are reacting why did beloved say why did Dr Jay Shankar react in this way what did they expect that Dr Jay Shankar will keep quiet why should he keep quiet he here is this and Dr


should he keep quiet he here is this and Dr jayashankar's press conference happened after the levels right and and clearly what bilawal said in his press conference had to be answered which is exactly what do you think that uh uh you know there's been criticism also in Pakistan that uh bilaval should have probably just done uh um you know a zoom uh interaction he shouldn't have come out here and uh I think there and there are articles also which have written that the meat in Goa had come down to you know becoming another agra-like situation do you agree with that no you know just one other point just before I answer your question you see right now the interesting situation is that Imran Khan is a big no no for the Army so both pmln and the PPP are joking for favors with the army what pmln has adopted is out and out support for the Army you know Shabbat Sharif keeps tweeting in favor of the army Bilal has taken the route because of


the army Bilal has taken the route because of zalari's training and zadaris you know sort of teaching him to go and Bash India so now let's see so the Army as got these two hats it'll be very interesting to see it come elections if they're held this year or whenever they're held Which hat do they pick up on so Bilal is using this track Shabbat Sharif is using that track and so is the person who becomes Prime Ministers whoever the Army picks up yes or not okay okay right despite the Army's protestation that we will not interfere in politics they are going to ultimately because if they don't interfere in politics Imran Khan is coming back I mean because of his popularity now the the question the Agra parallel to Goa see that was a summit yeah this was from foreign ministers and as Bhutto I would agree with him that he showed their commitment to the SEO you see Pakistan is not a member of G20 it is not


Pakistan is not a member of G20 it is not a member of brics it is not a member of Ric it is not a member of G7 what are they members of SEO becomes very important for them and therefore to show their solidarity with SEO and then China defense you better show up so he took this opportunity to come and I'm sure he would have told me listen you have to go this is where you can make your mark this is where you can get the attention of the people over there and just look at it in summer con six months ago when the foreign ministers met was uh uh you know knew that he's going to be pulled in into a hug there was some kind of a you know about resistance but a little awkwardness because hugging is not what happens at foreign ministers meets yeah but here so he was had this great meeting every at least for appearances in a very warm eating then he went Uzbekistan he met this so he presented himself and showed his


met this so he presented himself and showed his commitment to SEO and then he got the opportunity to lay down Pakistan's line very very strongly I mean some of the comments that he made you know this um wolf whistle all terrorism and weaponizing terrorism yeah but explain to me what that term means I don't know I couldn't figure it out myself yeah I think Dr Jay Shankar handled the reply very well on that then he talks about uh the BJP treats every Muslim as a terrorist sorry what are you saying you know on what basis this is the easiest thing to do is to used to blame a person to be islamophobic you know in the in it's become the easiest thing to beat a person you know it's like in America you know you you are anti-black you are racist so you can't recover from that kind of first and there are two places where you slipped up he said the ppp's policy is always to have good relations in India is he the foreign minister


have good relations in India is he the foreign minister of the PPP of the foreign minister of Pakistan I think he missed out over there then he said my mother was the victim of terrorism all along the line has been that killed it was an assassination not a terrorist attack yes maybe whoever was hired was he trying to say that they no longer consider mushroom of being responsible but these are small small subtleties which somebody who studied the subject very well I think he made these two big blunders then of course what he said about the G20 in Srinagar this is in the interview that he said that my mother was a victim of terrorism yeah that you know where I sit before the people this whole islamophobia thing that almost in the terrorist all falls flat because I am not only in the case of Pakistan not only the victims I am a personal victim basically he's monetizing his mother's death politically monetizing it let's put it as Darkly as that when she wasn't


put it as Darkly as that when she wasn't a victim of terrorism one second you know when he says that somebody else is trying to politicize terrorism what was that weaponization what he is doing is monetizing Terrorism for his political purpose interesting by saying that my mother is you know has has sacrificed her life his mother was the person who created the Taliban they came under her watch his mother is the person who was in the seat of power when all hell broke loose in Kashmir and over a hundred thousand people died subsequently right in that terrorism and people are still dying so all that blood is on on his mother's hands and now on his hands and I think I think where we make a mistake look I'm all for diplomatic language I'm all for diplomatic proprieties but when you are dealing with these kind of guys now then you have to use and and the good thing is that there are many occasions when the ministry of external Affairs is using appropriate language


the ministry of external Affairs is using appropriate language to Target these guys you know Punjabi News but they should you know Mothership of terrorism there are a number of interesting phrases which they have coined no I think made this formulation that he is the promoter the a couple of other things of terrorism yeah wait let me dig that out spokesperson office terrorism industry yeah which is a fact which is a fact so I think in in bilawal's case what has happened is that he uh I think this positioning which he has been trying to do look if they are actually into I from an Indian Point of View I think what is important is the signaling of the visit number one he has cured the pitch for uh Shabbat sharif's if shaba Sharif does come in July right for the summit meeting I think he has he has spoiled the grounds for that meeting if at all anything was going to come out of it but even more importantly I think what he has done is he has signaled


I think what he has done is he has signaled uh the fact that the pakistanis are not interested in even a modicum of normalization absolutely right because if they were he could have played this very differently but he decided not to see as soon as he say that you go back to the pre or you go back to the 4th August 2019 position India has to walk back and restore article 370. and what world are you living in that's not happening smell the coffee article 370 is history but he's taken the same position of Imran Khan did that so long as article 370 is not restored no dialogue no trade with India Bilal is saying the same thing Dr Jay Shankar said that his Pakistani counterpart is the promoter justifier and spokesperson of the terrorism industry this is what he had said Remember the weaponization of Terror this was a fantastic reply to him that's a good point and by calling her a victim of terrorism he has demolished the entire argument of the PPP


he has demolished the entire argument of the PPP that she was actually assassinated No in fact worse he has insulted victims of terrorism by saying that his mother is a victim of terrorism she is not a victim of terrorism so there's other nonsense um the thing is that sushant and I we we have friends uh who are pakistanis we've interacted with a number of them and all of them these are these the liberal pakistanis you know they all believe that the only person who couldn't deliver on peace between India and Pakistan other bhutos is this and then her projects you know no way yeah but you try and tell them they are the most yes no no but people's party is the most pro-establishment party nobody believes that this is what I'm trying to do look nobody believes it does not mean that it's not talking about pakistanis no even Indians so look even in India I met a Pakistani friend you know some of the journalists who had come one of them is a


the journalists who had come one of them is a decent guy I met him and I was telling him something I said listen you know all the Indian journalists also dumb down everything pardon my saying this in the company of journalists Pakistan is very important in Indian elections I sent him a report uh somebody had done this media analysis in 10 000 words that Modi spoke in 2019 nine words were Pakistan it was that important the pakistanis think that they are very important they are not the elections were fought on something completely different it was not the election was not fought on pulwama the election was fought on social welfare this La bahati thing which then at least in the up election came out very openly but you've dumbed it down Pakistani social media even in 2014 they said the same thing because at that time if you remember nawash Sharif had said that buddhi aurat or something like that he had said that why does India keep complaining to um about Manmohan Singh


India keep complaining to um about Manmohan Singh he said why does India keep going to America to complain about Pakistan so at that time Mr Modi was chief minister of Gujarat turned around and said that how dare you insult my prime minister so that became a thing so the pakistanis were like look we are so important for India they didn't get it pakistanis hate being ignored by India you know there's something that they sort of really rise them up ready we are so important in my uh comment list on on the podcast will be the same thing on the one hand you are saying that we are not important but on the other hand your podcast is all about us because arrest of Imran Khan is a very big thing and moreover the point is that it's so easy for people in social media to say why don't you ignore Pakistan why not concentrate on China which is the bigger enemy or the I mean it's stated enemy now is a bigger country and a bigger threat


now is a bigger country and a bigger threat as compared to Pakistan what do you have to say to that because I've heard you in many uh you know uh podcasts and uh discussions where you say that you ignore Pakistan at the at your own Peril which is absolutely true you see let's make a distinction China is a bigger enemy China is a more dangerous animal but you cannot ignore Pakistan because Pakistan can you know if you turn your back on Pakistan that's where you'll get hit but you see again in this Goa thing how come there was nobody interviewed the Chinese foreign minister and asked about the escalation On the Border or you're facing everybody went after Bilal see here again we at the media I think I'm sorry to no no that's fine I I understand yeah Chinese foreign minister was here I'm sure he must have been waiting for somebody to ask him for an interview nobody asked him or the Russians cannot and we must not ignore Pakistan look at what happened


we must not ignore Pakistan look at what happened you think that Pakistan is in a mess you've had two attacks with five five Indian soldiers have died you cannot ignore Pakistan and you know as I it's a radicalized Pakistan and it's a hungry Pakistan it will become an angry Pakistan and the only way the establishment is going to divert that anger is towards India therefore we need to be very very watchful and very very careful of what is happening in in Pakistan because a lot of this bakwas is going to land up on our doorsteps how how is it going to land up I think what people need a Clarity on is uh when they say now why are you giving so much importance to Pakistan it is one thing to study the enemy it is one thing to focus on the enemy and it is another thing to do all this puppy Japanese nonsense which we keep doing you know we are the same people you know all that nonsense which happens and then this this familiar truth


which happens and then this this familiar truth politicians right so but this is all I'm sorry to say this is all the Punjabi is a monkey no like you know they they love getting their backsides kicked and then want it again and again and again they start enjoying it also so much of indoctrination in Pakistan especially in Punjab foreign so the mind of a five-year-old child Hood and you have a Hindu with a big uh so the mind of a child five-year-old child all Hindus now if you're in drained this from the age of five by the time you come out of school forget the madrasa I'm talking about government schools what are you going to be so this is the kind of hatred this is all you know when they threw Papi Japan and Indians going there you know simple Indians taxi driver was so nice and anarkali Bazar I didn't have to pay anything this is all superficial for three days so I used to ask these people how many days did


I used to ask these people how many days did you stay there try staying there for a month and see how the scales fall and what the actual reality yeah when the Visas were available but people used to go for cricket matches people would go on visits so they would spend three days four days over there and come back with this kind of an impression but if you stay there long enough in Punjab you know the attitude of the sindhis attitude of the Baloch attitude of the pathan is very different than to what it is because the indoctrination of the Punjabi musliman especially the memory of the riots you know you keep saying that uh this is going to land in our doorsteps I've heard you say this many times what is it that we should be fearful of the collapse of Pakistan it's a very rough example it may not be entirely accurate but supposing tomorrow 250 000 or 500 000 people start marching towards the Indian border because there's no water there's no


the Indian border because there's no water there's no food from sin and South Punjab then you start marching towards the Indian border Pakistan Army may not let them come they may not be able to hold them what will you do what do you do at your border checkpost if somebody find this because it's humanitarian you know they don't have water they don't have food or there are bullets flying and bombs falling yeah yeah right and they are trying to escape this is a radicalized population so you have to think about it now when you have time you know as I said radicalization then why do you say that we should we want a Pakistan which is in turmoil because turmoil this might happen my there is a spectrum of possibility possibilities okay what Mr the vishwas is talking about is exists the worst case right the best case in my book is a weak tottering Pakistan ventilator basically yeah perfect right it works for me uh so one is this you know this weak uh unstable uh Pakistan


is this you know this weak uh unstable uh Pakistan which and and poor which works for me right this is my best case scenario my worst case scenario is what Mr diveshwar said but then between those two there is an entire range of possibilities which can happen so what what we need is not to be fearful that and we should not have this Mother India complex that oh we must try and save Pakistan we can't do it even if we wanted to and we should not want to do it right but what you have to prepare yourself for and this these are challenges that we've had even a millennia back so what you need to prepare yourself for is a disturbed Frontier an endless war which is what Mr diveshwar and I were in a panel the other day and this is exactly what I was saying that you have to be prepared for something which I call an endless world now this is not a war of the Ukraine Russia type but this is a war in which your security forces


but this is a war in which your security forces will be constantly keeping these elements at Bay now somewhere you might have to go inside and do certain things somewhere you might have to carve out some kind of buffer zones somewhere you will see ungoverned spaces or ungovernable spaces in Pakistan and then some kind of Warlords being out there and then you know some kind of raids taking place to try and get something out of what is India right now you have to be preparing for all those scenarios Dynamic situations Big Show and study Pakistan why is Pakistan got in such a mess that it is where people are dying for utter you know Stampede are taking place we need to look at our food situation we need to look at our water situation we need to look at what is happening in our schools in terms of what is what is the parallel that which is happening in Pakistan why should we look at our food security our education and look at Pakistan this is how this is the spiral has gone


Pakistan this is how this is the spiral has gone out of control in Pakistan they were they have the largest contiguous irrigation Network in the world till about two or three years ago they've had Surplus wheat which they would send out today they have to import 3 billion tons of wheat you know why because the acreage under wheat has been reduced they don't have enough fertilizers they don't have enough water let's not be so I mean what I'm saying is just study it yeah are our food stocks adequate that we don't have the same kind of situation yeah so that we can learn from what is happening what happened in Sri Lanka how they recovered in fact uh Imran Khan's speech itself was that that you know uh Bloomberg report he quotes in which he says I mean the the video that he's made and put out today was that Bloomberg says that uh hamari situation Sri Lanka Valley situation he said talks about uh the financial crisis yeah economic situation


talks about uh the financial crisis yeah economic situation of Pakistan is worse than what Sri Lanka situation is is what he's saying and of course he's blaming the Sharif brothers and he's blaming the current uh political establishment while he was all the time talking about the military establishment he's even blamed that so let's let me come to the Sharif Brothers where are they in this fight uh which Imran Khan is having with the Army you said that you know they are there absolutely right so where does where does that leave with Maryam why is she not an option for the Pakistan Army you see in the case of I mean I'm not sure that she's not an option I for one they will look at their best bet see Maryam initially because she's young and inexperienced she came across very strongly in the beginning when Nawaz Sharif was dismissed she was brutal criticism of the army she is now toned down after being told by Shahbaz and being told the


being told by Shahbaz and being told the problem with Maryam is that she has many competitors Sharif his son Hamza Sharif Nawaz Sharif also wants to come back and become fourth time prime minister you know so and a lot of people in the pmln takanabasi for example says that I cannot accept her as my leader so Maryam and she's very young I mean not very young she's youngish enough that she has time to go politically as mature as say Shabazz or uh Imran no administrative experience you know he's been a Hands-On chief minister he hasn't done so effectively as a prime minister so she doesn't have that she but Richie anybody who can match Imran Khan's oratory and connect with the crowd it is Maryam Nawaz no she has the Charisma yeah she gets the crowds she has a connect with the people she is very feisty uh so she has everything that is needed in becoming a mass leader I am not very sure if nawashri


mass leader I am not very sure if nawashri would want to become Prime Minister again maybe uh just Pakistan because a lot of people are saying that uh he is now looking to hand over his legacy to Maryam the only problem is that uh there is an element of impetuity in Maryam you know you see that she she is quick to uh you know get fired up which is in some cases which is good and in some cases it can be a little disaster okay I I personally feel just to uh then chief justice he wants to come back and prove a point and then maybe hand over it would be um you know uh comment made by one person who worked in the pmo of Mr vajpai Mr sudindra Kulkarni who said that uh you know this was no way to conduct uh foreign policy that what happened in Goa what was needed was for the Indian foreign minister to take the Pakistan foreign minister to the beach and hold hands and and improve relations like that so Mr


hold hands and and improve relations like that so Mr need first destroyed vajpayee's government then destroyed Mr advani's career now he's hell-bent on destroying Mr Modi it is Mr modi's good sense that he keeps Kulkarni at an arm's length the reason I'm saying you know with Mr Kulkarni is yes sushant is right so in the sense that Mr Kulkarni helped advani write that book on Jenna and that was the end of book he wrote that thing in that visitors book advani wrote on the visitor's book when he went to jinnah's Mausoleum I think what pulled down advani was that thing which he wrote in that visitors book also you see where he said very very actually gave a compliment uh that he was secular correct he didn't write a book he said that Jinnah was secular and he got his gun from suddenly let's not dismiss uh uh you know Mr Kulkarni the fact is that these were there were two people in


fact is that these were there were two people in vajpai's uh pmo which is Mr Kulkarni and Mr dulath Right these were the two people who were in The pmo I'm not saying and this is this I'm again saying that you know every time Mr Dr Manmohan Singh Is blamed for his Pakistan policy but it was a BJP government with Mr vajpayee who's the icon of BJP prime minister of you know iconic prime minister he's the one who had two people in his pmo who today say these things but what is the point you you have Mr dulat out there and who's written a book along with and you know he was in the raw and then went as advisor to uh the pmo and then you had Mr Kulkarni now these are the two people who Advocate about how Mr Modi is extremely wrong in this hawkish policy towards Pakistan and that not having talks is not the right thing to do and that India has a wrong foreign policy so you tell


that India has a wrong foreign policy so you tell me that we can look in hindsight now and say but both today both Imran Khan and beloved to have clearly drawn the line they have said unless you walk back on the 5th August 2019 changes there will be no talks no dialogue where is what Regal room is left for diplomats and people to talk they're telling him have you seen that uh show TV show Diplomat talk to everybody talk to even the terrorists talk to everybody because that's what diplomacy is all about see you go and say I want to talk to you the guy said I don't even want to talk to you you look like a fool they want to talk to you that is posturing by that we will not talk till kashmir's result because that is always in the sense of resolving now article 360 until you walk back yeah so they want us to walk back on everything they would want us to walk back right Upton yeah everything we would also want


walk back right Upton yeah everything we would also want back now we also want to walk back said that India has changed the Dynamics because of these changes in fifth August and therefore it is up to India to create the atmosphere for talks or if you don't want to talk they don't get it still we now this is what it is we don't want to talk now you at one point of time you said they don't want to talk also look they don't want to talk because of this to us it makes no difference because we are not going to change 5th August 2019 right and if they don't want to talk with us we are very happy not talking to them that's about to read nor for talks look let's face it number one when you talk about uh diplomacy you know uh diplomacy is not an end in itself you know you just keep interacting with people it is with a purpose right it has to be as part of a larger plan so if you're a democracy


of a larger plan so if you're a democracy and you you have this relationship that I will not talk it's not a mature way of of being a a superpower or or a power or a country which aims to be a superpower way but you know I won't talk to you but once again he will any day talk to you he's in such a situation today it's just posturing why should I why should I give into his posturing I want him to step off this high horse that he's climbed number one number two this whole thing you know you are a democracy and that you need to talk look number one very often people misunderstand you still have a mission in Pakistan at different levels you still have conversations going on those conversations are still happening what is not happening is this this Love Fest which used to happen in the past right and if that's not happening good it's not happening number one number two uh there is no structured dialogue of the source which was


there is no structured dialogue of the source which was happening in the past now frankly from our point of view okay maybe at the back Channel some people are talking they are trying to sort certain things out or at least keep you know the the business level of the relationship going for whatever that's worth yeah but that's where it ends now if you want a political level dialogue then what are you going to do about it if you have red lines I have bigger red lines and you have not addressed anyone you think the Pakistan Army can ever walk down when bajwa was there in March 2021 if everyone Islam was security dialogue he talked about changing geopolitics into geoeconomics he talked about let's forget the past and move where the ceasefire on the Loc Pakistan also agreed to import cotton and sugar from India and this was signed on by Imran Khan as Commerce minister when it went to him as prime minister he turned it back for a change the Army was on board to have trade


a change the Army was on board to have trade with India Baja wasn't you know was interested in this that Imran Khan because he felt left out and he felt that he is this superhuman guy how can you do this from what I have heard uh Imran was very much in the loop there were other people who were not in the loop Qureshi and Shireen mazari you know that Doctor Strange Love of Pakistan um a couple of other such people and when these guys kind of got to know that you know when the ECC passed that resolution and then they were going to go to the cabinet that is when Qureshi jumped in this Shareen mizari jumped in a couple of other people jumped in and they told Imran you know you will get wiped out politically this is not a sustainable proposition the fact is that Imran Khan isari can influence him on such important things yeah he absolutely he is seeing but he has zero intellect you know you can have a combination of


zero intellect you know you can have a combination of the two very low cunning that you are very you know smart and certain things but intellectually completely backwards which is what he is he is that you know okay so what is the way forward if I was to talk like this now okay what both of you are saying I mean you'd be considered Hawks on Pakistan many of them realistic you see because unless it until the other person wants to talk he said I don't want to talk to you how why is it that the International Community is no longer happening if you you remember the 80s whether it is America whether it is different now what is Pakistan earlier we wanted to isolate it It's The Most Dangerous Drug you do remember is the most dangerous place in the world and things like that nuclear Powers talk they know it's not going to happen and that India is now into having your look at the way you are when did that change happen when when do you think that that


that change happen when when do you think that that we India crossed over at that stage where we say to hell with you tomorrow everybody except that after 5th August 2019 Kashmir is no longer on the table as far as India is concerned and the International Community has accepted this India has pulled Kashmir out of the table as Dr Jai Shankar said the only thing is when Pakistan is going to return be okay to us so it has been accepted India has so much more to offer you know whether it's SEO whether it's G20 whether it's bricks what is China looking at sushant look before I come to China you know just on this whole Geo economics thing if Pakistan is talking about connectivity and then Pakistan says connectivity between South Asia and Central Asia etc etc South Asia is what it's India but you don't have connectivity with India so your entire connectivity project goes for a six your cpec is not going to be successful until unless it has an East-West alignment as well so


until unless it has an East-West alignment as well so you are a bridge to nowhere right so all this talk about geoeconomics Falls flat because Pakistan's geographical relevance is just not there anymore it is relevant now in the context of India now that's a very significant thing that you're saying because all along Pakistan it can still do it if it gets into trade and connectivity with India if it becomes a bridge between India yeah then it became uh when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan it became against Afghanistan then again on the war on terror so that was geographical its strategic location today that was used in a very negative context when you talk about economics geoeconomics then you are talking about something positive going forward right something which actually gets you much longer lasting benefits but for that you need to get down your high horse I just hope people in the Indian establishment underst I don't know if people even so tell me if I'm wrong because very often you know yeah I'm going to say it


very often you know yeah I'm going to say it because very often I see people talk about stuff this is the lowest of the low hanging fruits but they are such dumbos it works for them more than it works for us see at the end of the day Afghanistan is a 10 billion dollar economy 10 billion right that's the size of the economy what will you get out of that what does Afghanistan really sell or buy with what right but if those trade routes open up because the pakistanis benefit right but they want to cut their nose to spite my face I said please go ahead cut whatever else you want to cut right I don't mind and soon you will happen it will happen that Afghanistan will develop a trade rule through Iran you know and Indian ships will go from Mumbai U.S Sanchez and all there have been problems but I think things are moving so but Pakistan is because it is so stupid they don't realize the benefits of just Transit trade they don't have


the benefits of just Transit trade they don't have to do a thing truck is going from one side Tron shipment use Pakistani trucks they make money both ways yeah to come back to the question on China what is how does China View this situation now look I think what is their interest I think the the Chinese have a deep interest in Pakistan right I don't think they're going to give it up right now but I think they also have very serious concerns about Pakistan now all this stuff which you've heard over the last two days uh and other stuff which has been coming that now we are going to make a railway line from the karakoram it's not happening okay I can tell you why are you laughing about that come on there's 62 billion dollars in Pakistan it's not happening it's not going to happen plus if they make a railway line out there it presents fabulously juicy targets uh in the event of a conflict right and it just comes crashing before that what about the


and it just comes crashing before that what about the uh the Baloch and the TTP will they allow it will they allow it or through their land right so so uh so all those announcements I think you take with a pinch of salt but I think the Chinese have a very deep strategic interest in Pakistan I think they've given up those dreams of Pakistan also having some economic value because as of now they've only sunk money in Pakistan uh the interesting thing and this is somebody uh in some official who whose assessment it was and I think he's right uh if you look at what the Chinese are doing they're not giving the pakistanis any money the way they used to in the past right they're not stepping up to the plate and saying that okay fine if you're not getting a deal with the IMF I will step up and I will bail you out they're not doing it what the Chinese are doing is what a would do right they are saying okay let him her him everybody else come and


okay let him her him everybody else come and bail you out then we will chip in and you have the money to start paying us then we will come okay and the pakistanis uh are in a very bad spot right now partly because now the Chinese are no longer even observing diplomatic niceties with them you know what what the Chinese foreign minister said in public when he was years ago with the level on the side Pakistan get your act together what are you doing to this political instability is not if I've never seen the Chinese admonish do you know at the foreign minister level the earlier the Chinese Embassy in Islamabad had issued a diplomatic note when they were wrangling about the route yeah they had done that but that was a Chinese Mission here in the Chinese foreign minister in Islamabad telling them get your act together earlier do you remember in the 90s I think the Chinese president I think it was Jiang zamin yeah who had advised them it was in Lahore if I'm


advised them it was in Lahore if I'm not mistake I think it was addressing Parliament either it was in Lahore or the joint session I'm not very clear right now but he had advised them that you know you need to start making up with India not in as many words but basically saying problems need to be sorted out they ignored that the pro problems only increased to their detriment now this guy has come and said that look you know you have this great internal stability and you have this kind of a thing who's going to come to Pakistan who will invest money in Pakistan right uh but this is in front of cameras you know what is happening behind closed doors is even worse they are actually talking down to the pakistanis they're treating them like a client now you know that kind of is happening what was that uh that was what we're saying and obviously right you know sushant was talking about bailing out Pakistan how come you know it's not happening


out Pakistan how come you know it's not happening historically we've always seen that the West steps up America steps up and bails out Pakistan all the three times when us has been the only interested in Pakistan today is the nuclear weapons and terrorism to make sure that the terrorists you know don't uh beyond that the U.S is not interested in either Pakistan or in Afghanistan and Russia and what is this so Russia thinks it's fine for them but they also know that the U.S Pakistan is giving ammunition to Ukraine which is being used against Russian troops and the Russians are not stupid you know they also know this so let's see when the first tanker comes to Karachi how will they refine it it won't be refined sir it'll be a refined product will come they don't have the capacity yeah exactly they don't have so I don't know whether it is crude oil or whether it is a refined product refined products they're going to be selling refined products okay which is why the


to be selling refined products okay which is why the the price which is normally being coated there's no Clarity right now but whatever price is being quoted I doubt if they're going to be selling it at that price because crude price is something and refined products or something completely different and then of course the fact that it takes many days for that crew to travel all the way uh also as a price attached to it so so if they are quoting 45 50 a barrel I think that's nonsense that's that's not going to be the it's going to come at the end of the month we will get more clarity on I won't be surprised because you know the Americans can be pretty ruthless when it comes down to it although article they are more woke than they are ruthless but um given how much they have resisted uh bailing out Pakistan or you know getting even the IMF to give them a billion dollars not that that billion dollars is going to change anything but given how much


dollars is going to change anything but given how much they have resisted or they've not really stepped up to the plate uh I suspect that there might be something else which is maybe they have reconciled can go let them sink let them go under because once they go under then maybe we can extract certain other benefits out of these guys and of course why should we bail them out when they are so close to the Chinese let the Chinese put in their money now the Chinese are saying let the Americans put in their money between the cracks so is Pakistan falling between the cracks as what sushant is saying you know right now I mean both of us I think between us 50 years of experience of looking at Pakistan officially unofficially whatever okay I've never seen Pakistan so bad because it's multiple crisis being called a poly crisis you have a political crisis very severe political crisis you have with constitutional implications you have a Judicial crisis the Judiciary is fighting amongst itself there's a


the Judiciary is fighting amongst itself there's a confrontation between the legislature and the Judiciary for example Kenny Murray the chief justice has asked for records of the National Assembly debate to be summoned and the National Assembly has retorted by telling the speaker you convert the house into a committee and we will summon the Chief Justice before us and ask him to give the records of their deliberations on how they've arrived parliamentary committee can do that this is amazing you had people have not recovered from the floods the 30 lakhs people still living outside you have a security crisis the TTP is on the Rampage you know so all these crisis and then the economic crisis and then sir the institutional crisis an army which is which is diffident which is not able to assert itself the way it has in the past and the Army has always seen itself as a sucker of Last Resort if yeah exactly so this is what I was coming last resort chief martial law administrator


I was coming last resort chief martial law administrator with all this crisis what else uh what can the Army do the Army has no Expedition on the economy what can the Army do in Pakistan that they've always been the solution what is the solution is led to the problem far worse no no but see uh the earlier problems were never as deep and as widespread as they are now so earlier there would be a political problem the Army would step in there was an economic crisis or something the Army would the economic crisis has never been as bad as this right this time given all those crises which you know Mr diveshwar has outlined if the Army steps in and that might be the last resort and it might happen in the next couple of days for all we know yeah then the problem is what magic wand does the Army have to sort these matters out are they going to shoot at people are they what are they going to do how are they going to how are they going to fix the


they going to how are they going to fix the economy so for fixing the economy you need very very deep structural reform right very deep structural reform also will extend to the Army okay even if it doesn't extend to the Army it will it will completely uh you know append and overhaul the complete economic system which means a lot of those uh those those Rich guys who have been trotting all over the place are going to go under it's going to cause massive disruption and dislocation and then it will have a certain impact which will be felt in the rest of the polity then you have to fix how are you going to fix the politics of the country and then once you have intervened then when you climb off that horse we have seen in the past what has happened when the transition takes place after a couple of years to another civilian government you again have a civilian government which is always looking over its shoulder so the message as soon as there's a military coup sanctions will


soon as there's a military coup sanctions will kick in from the U.S I am a Phil stop giving you'll find World Bank will pull away so the only solution which can take place may not be a military coup but what's being called a technocratic government you know people they bring in about their technocrat government experiment has not worked in the past either yeah exactly it has not worked in the past tried it initially he brought in a government of technocrats yeah yeah it didn't work yeah but look even what will the Techno grad so the problem with the the problem with the technocrat is he has no connect with the people no okay he will be sitting here okay this is how I'm going to fix the economy without worrying about impact a politician what he will do is also came in everybody said that he he's not a politician so it doesn't matter you have a technocrat who's sitting out here in fact there are many who think that even raghuram Rajan is hopeful that


think that even raghuram Rajan is hopeful that other Rahul Gandhi prime minister I will be the Prime Minister many say that that's what raghuram rajan's uh uh so if you say that delusions technocrat is fine thinking that he will become Prime Minister after some time the technocrat also becomes political because the most underrated politician you know he was a very very shrewd politician he was a technocrat he was so even if Pakistan Army brings a technocrat do you think that he will be disconnected so begin with yes you see a politician's biggest Advantage is he feels the pulse of the people he knows what the people want look at even the Shabbat Sharif government the IMF was negotiations were going well then they gave a massive subsidy on fuel prices and the image just pulled off ninth reviews the IMF said nothing of the sort you've gone back these politicians are saying look we need to have something for relief for the people it cannot be a cut


for relief for the people it cannot be a cut and dried program what you are telling us to do we have to give relief to the people but then the IMF will not accept that so A technocrat will say as you said this has to be done he doesn't have that pulse of the people and in India's case when Manmohan Singh bolt at certain reforms right because he thought that he will not be able to sell it it was narasimha Rao Who I Really credit as the architect of the reforms right or the father of the reforms who actually said you go ahead do it let me manage the politics the congress party lost in 1996 partly as a result of the disruption which happened but they saved this country and I think that credit goes to the congress party and to both Dr Manmohan Singh as well as narasimha Rao but without narasimha Rao backing those reforms the way he did it they would have never happened true but even then


they would have never happened true but even then Smita what many people forget is that Pakistan has gone through that cycle 23 times or at least 13 times right in India is the first time it happened we kind of reformed and we moved forward the pakistanis have always taken the IMF loan [Music] it's also this I think the mentality that Indians have okay the gold that that that thing that was so nice you know I don't think Chandra shekar ever got over that Dhaba on his prime minister yeah but that was a very smart thing he did not sure agreed but politically it was disastrous but yeah it's it's like you said you know Pakistan's case you know they have this belief that they are too important to fail the way the only Muslim country with nuclear weapons weapons they're too important locations they can't reform their own system but somebody else will come and bail them out if you look at social media you look at Pakistan television there is this thing that is everybody sent


television there is this thing that is everybody sent if you can afford it you send your children that's what all the TV shows nationalities dual nationalities they're all going they're sitting abroad and they're commenting about the situation in Pakistan but there is a change if you've noticed in some of the tonality that you know India is I'm noticing the same people who were so vitriolic have changed in their television shows absolutely yes you see there are diplomats there are army officers retired they're these v-loggers despite his faults you know Mr Modi has done wonders for India then we should trade after all we are the same one person even said you know I became uh um you know my grandfather converted the one generation or two generations ago I wish he hadn't so I want to go back and claim my Heritage in India you know things like this they're meaningless because they don't really matter you know this is just too small but yes it is indicative conversely there are people


but yes it is indicative conversely there are people in India again a very few who don't matter at the moment the dynamic is they are saying Pakistan is today is very weak we should perform a much more aggressive policy towards Pakistan so you know you have this one who says this is amazing Dynamic no it's happening on both sides and I agree with you that there are people in Pakistan who now suddenly are discovering their Indian Roots they want to play crickets and if jesha was ever to allow it I'll curse him right I'll curse him the worst curses if he was ever to allow it when you have the enemy on the mat slay him okay I am very very clear and I'll give you the look I have not become what I am today I have not I didn't I was not born thinking like this right I came from a family my father who had very good associations across the border uh some which I inherited uh and really good ones right uh and and I there


and really good ones right uh and and I there was a time when I got into this profession I actually believed you know things can work out until I realized better and my for me I think in many ways the cutoff point was 2008 26 11. that's when I said and and not just the attack the attitude of the pakistanis when they tried to cover it all up you know not contrite nothing and even when people said you know this is very bad they were being utterly insincere and dishonest when they were saying it they didn't give a they were all bloody celebrating I know it so that is that was my cutoff point now my point is that you you know you always try and cut slack for them the moment you cut slack for them and they recover the attitude is the same what it was before they you know before this you know the mindset has been so poisoned against India this is all tactical this is all you know the Punjabi I have to speak about this


know the Punjabi I have to speak about this you know there are so many diplomats who when they are in service and when they do Pakistan desk and all that when we are journalists you know they get after us there's an article also you've seen how when India Pakistan talks you know there'd be one press conference that Indians would have then there's another press conference that The pakistanis Have and the dialogues were going on so we rushed from one to the other to the other till the deadline of the newspaper shutting down and then whoever had the last press conference that person got the upper hand so literally till page shutting time when this was before 24 hour news cycle they got the final word those very diplomats once they retire they become like from Hawks they become dumbs that because there was an entire industry which catered to that yeah the junket industry now that industry has broken so now you're seeing the diplomats who talked about improving ties they are the


who talked about improving ties they are the ones who have become Hawks you know where is the intellectual honesty in this at least sushant is saying that he changed his views because he inherited something uh you know and then he realized the ground situation intellectual dishonesty that you've seen yeah absolutely there's no doubt about that there's a whole lot of them you know and uh so their attitude is you have to accept you must accept a contrary point of view that we need to have if India is to grow if India has to become a regional power you would need to take your neighborhood along with you you need to have you know trade you need to have a flexible Visa policy so they justify their position or their change in their position on this basis that we're talking what is good for India in the long term that if you want to become Regional power that this is what you must do neighborhood first should be included no but but here is the problem you know when


no but but here is the problem you know when people say all this I I understand where they're coming from and I I can okay I respect their point of view but I want empirical evidence what is the empirical evidence do they have in justifying what they are suggesting right if you look at uh the the data let's take 1990 as the cutoff when India starts the economic reforms uh and India was behind Pakistan at that point of time right and 1990 is also the 1991 also the point where uh terrorism comes in a way although it came in the 80s in Punjab but 1990s was like Punjab was already happening the pakistanis were also involved in Northeast which very often does not enter our national Consciousness correct they were all over the bloody place right now you look at the trajectory of the two countries from 1990. and our trade with Pakistan has always been marginal yeah right so we have achieved whatever we have achieved in the last 25 odd years regardless regardless of


in the last 25 odd years regardless regardless of Pakistan how does it matter if India has to become a great power yes we must have good relations with our neighbors but with neighbors who want to have good relations with us exactly we should not and and this whole thing that no we need to suck up to Pakistan because otherwise what does Pakistan offer Us in terms of connectivity let's talk about it I keep asking people it will connect us to Central Asia before that Allah right you can't I don't think you can have anybody will build anything through Afghanistan at this stage maybe the central Nations have something to sell us and Pakistan is important in that context but it is not for me and I can I can root it otherwise there are many efficient routes and people have actually uh tried some of those routes uh through Iran and through other places to access the Central Asian markets and those have turned out to be uh extremely profitable and viable so Pakistan is not important for me in that context if I was to


important for me in that context if I was to if I was to come back to Imran and get it into the personality part you are obsessed with Imran Imran Khan if I was to come back to Imran Khan and this is the accusation that all men make that women journalists no no I'm not saying this as a woman journalist I'm saying as a hindustani patrika yeah I'm sorry to say four books on Pakistan and but it didn't happen this time in Goa no because he didn't call you he treated the Indian media like he only spoke to the Pakistani media no no and also spoke to Indian media okay I'm sure the mission here would have selected who they wanted to speak to um you know his car is coming and he's getting off there in the hotel and he's entering the hotel 24 7 the live another T20 match the Chinese foreign minister came nobody knew where he came when he went nobody saw the Russian foreign minister but he realized that


saw the Russian foreign minister but he realized that Indian media has been reporting for a long time if you remember everything because even now they say SRI Jinping or Mr Jinping in many they don't realize that you call them president you'd say she you don't say Jinping but this is it because Indian media like uh I'm sorry but even authors and Specialists are focusing all the time on Pakistan we have fought three and a half Wars for conflicts if I may say three Wars on Kashmir and one war with Pakistan which was not on Kashmir we all the time we've had Pakistan as our adversary so obviously everything about Pakistan is important right yeah but how much do people in India despite all this Obsession which people have how many people actually under understand the damn place what is you are willing to sell off your country because he didn't charge 10 Rupees from you and people out here make the mistake of confusing personal relationships and you can have very good personal relationship with a few


you can have very good personal relationship with a few people across the border with and then they extrapolate that personal relationship with the national level relationship ignoring all the muck which is there you know and that is what I I find a Pakistani journalists also did know they came to Goa and they said if you can't go to uh the west then Goa serves your purpose but yeah stories back home that's a different thing but I mean you will agree with this also have this they love Shahrukh Khan they love Salman Khan they love coming to Indian monuments looking at it I've seen them gushing about everything but when the trouble happens is when it comes to Kashmir when you talk about Kashmir to any Pakistani it's that that is where all the divisions occur and if you decide that that is going to be the driving force of a relationship it cannot last with the Pakistani then you cannot have a conversation but you can talk about Bollywood you can talk about they love your


talk about Bollywood you can talk about they love your bhujia they love your chart you like their Khana yeah I love McDonald's I love Burger King I love I love Taylor Swift I love all many other Americans American Music I love her right so I there are many things about the West which I love in fact you know I I I actually identify with those things yeah right I get does that make me a Westerner I can have a conversation with somebody on many of these things but does this mean that I understand that place no does this mean I want to live out there no so you know don't confuse that no no that what I'm trying to say is that Obsession it's not an obsession there are many people who have kinships with with pakistanis they understand and pakistanis with Indians and everybody says that that the common people uh whether in Pakistan or in India certain part of it you know just North India South India couldn't be bothered they have nothing in common with Pakistan they have