and requires the establishment of a caliphate so that there is a centralized unified command a chatra so to speak under which all Muslim rulers can function in this land everywhere he says a caliphate a unified caliphate and it starts with Bharat because this happens to be the biggest possession in their hands okay that's one second he says along with the caliphate which will take care of the worldly Affairs of Islam you need a very strong ulama so there's a very clear division of turf between the ulama and the rulers he makes that and it is the job of the Olimar to set the Islamic house in order if the Islamic King strays so he draws on all of that and this man was the contemporary of Abdul wahab both of them learn the hadees from the same school and from the same set of teachers in hijaz okay so look at how the this the history I mean the history of this particular period is incestuous we read the history of


particular period is incestuous we read the history of wahhabism as if it's in a separate Silo when it comes to the Middle East but we don't wish to talk about what happened parallely in Bharat he's the one who translated the Quran into Persian Persian correct so that why did he do that because by then Persian has become the official language of the administration of the under the turko Mongol persianized mughals and therefore he says the the first thing that we must do is as long as it is in Arabic it becomes difficult for the local population to read the language or read the book and they will start they'll be contaminated by the influence of their Hindu ancestors and Hindu neighbors so to prevent that infestation contamination let's say that of that particular pandemic or epidemic as he saw it let us quickly convert this into a language which is more accessible and therefore he was the first one to undertake the translation of Quran to a


one to undertake the translation of Quran to a person from Arabic so this happens not just that he is also crystal clear in his head that the only way I can ensure that the new convert remains true to Islam as it was followed by its earliest followers is by ensuring that their entire life is lived in accordance with the Sharia because Sharia reflects the religion in the manner in which it was followed by the earliest followers to Islam this is how they see it and that philosophy is endorsed across the board there's a multiplier effect with multiple institutions mushrooming all over the country if you look at the map on the cover page of the book I've identified those regions which have been either influenced by this thought process or which are epicenters of seminaries which propagated the thought process so when you have delivery already saying this was a product of this what are we talking about here why is our current even relevant to this discussion Jinnah is merely a


even relevant to this discussion Jinnah is merely a third or fourth generation torch bearer of the very same thought process but this also shows that delivery is perhaps a strawman argument to make because if someone who is so much trained in the religion and its scripture and has done this for a living whose father compiled what is known as clearly and surely he knows more about Islam than you and I do so I wouldn't say this is merely the contribution of delavi delavi was capturing or encapsulating a political Doctrine based on Islam so ultimately it goes back to the central book The Root book so the one of the founders of Jamia islamia which was founded I think in 1920 the backdrop of the non-cooperation movement after they found aligarh less Muslim Muslim University was found to be less Muslim and more British loyalist and therefore Jamia was established one of the founders wasmani he gave the first quranic justification for the creation of Pakistan on the basis of the division of the world


Pakistan on the basis of the division of the world between the kafirs and the movement and you'll find a better exposition of this thought process in uh venkatulipala's book creating the uh a new Madina where he speaks of the period post 1937 until the creation of Pakistan with all this before us I refuse to believe that savarkar or even Jinnah or even say that was remotely responsible for this they were only taking a certain thought process forward that's it did did they were they the ones who or one of them or two of them would even the ones who gave a a kind of a politicalization 100 so which is why I would say so the first person to give it a very concrete political shape was Syed ahmeds or Hindi who existed in the period of Akbar but because Akbar existed and he was a powerful Emperor and the Mughal Empire was perhaps at its peak I would say it was perhaps at its peak under aurangzeb in terms of geographical expanse


peak under aurangzeb in terms of geographical expanse and all that he did not find too much of traction and since everything was going hunky-dory for the for political Islam people didn't see the need to indulge him but when the chips are down for political Islam dilemma take up the mantle and therefore from the death of aurangzeb in 1707 is when you start looking at the rise of political Islam under the guidance of ulama so it's like this when people believe that under a particular Islamic King the flag of Islam and the flag of mughals are flying high let's not upset the the Apple cut so to speak and plus Akbar was a very powerful emperor so in the tug of war between the religious Elites and the political Elites when the political Elites are very powerful religious Elites are not going to find too much attraction from the public because they'll say this man is ensured that Islam Reigns Supreme politically in this country so why would you want to go around


this country so why would you want to go around troubling him at this point but subsequent rulers end up getting even colorful titles like and so forth right thanks to their lifestyle and everything else that's when the religious Elite say at least now you must listen to us so compared to his father Abdul Rahim who lived in the time of aurangas lived at a time when the Islamic rulers were only Islamic in name and we're happy doing or indulging in all sorts of debauchery that's when he invites abdali to invade this country because marathas and darts have reasserted that position so he writes letters to three different people the nizam of Hyderabad I think the Emir of Afghanistan in herat and then also perhaps I don't know if he wrote to Turkey then he writes to abdali abdali is the one who comes here so this tells me that the two Nation theory is not a product of the 1900s it's not a product of the 1800s it's a product


not a product of the 1800s it's a product at the very least of the 1700s going back to I would say the root cause the root cause Okay uh you've talked about the daily influence tell me about the bhabi influence now on Bharat as such we are still talking about Bharat we still not come to post Colonial yeah because most people would think that Barbie influence came to South Asia or something with the Taliban to go back and say that what you are saying is that it was their way back correct so tell me about the influence so the thing is uh wahhabism became a moniker so to speak thanks to its propagation by the British after their ships were Satellite by the wahhabis in hejaz and the Middle East until then they weren't aware of this particular strain of thought now wahab Abdul wahab and shabalilla dalavi since they were taught by the same set of teachers as far as hadees is concerned they go back to the


hadees is concerned they go back to the respective realms and take the thought forward one C is the gradual decline of the Ottoman Empire because it's competing with the Russian Empire it's competing with the Habsburg Empire and here the Mughal Empire is gradually falling so the Muslim Community in two different Foci chooses to prop two different Muslim intellectuals who say the only way you can regain your power is by going back to the basics as far as Islam are concerned Islam is concerned and that is what is wahhabism for all practical purposes say we doubt all possible external extraneous influences so there are two specific influences they speak of other three Turkish Roman and Hindi that is why I say that when they are asking for the removal of it that's the next wave of islamization so wahhabism is a process the end goal is complete islamization how is Hindi corrupting that Purity Sufi practices so there are two different aspects one


practices so there are two different aspects one so for instance when a when a girl attains menage that is celebrated in in several parts of this country that practice gains a lot more gate and festivity in Indian Islam where it is practiced by practitioners of Indian Islam they said get it out of it marriage should not be celebrated with this kind of form Canada out of this this is the Hindu influence so observe everything with sobriety anything that has color light music get it out because that's the Hindu influence was it were they effective were they successful and until what point of time were they successful in history you'd think so it's like this so This thought process is accepted in several parts and is rejected in several parts yeah so the portions of Indian Islam which reject the rejection of Sufi Islam are called the barailways who say no sorry these are practices which have come over the years we will retain them but you see that's what I say in the book that


you see that's what I say in the book that independent of their internal differences on these aspects the one thing they're very very clear about is that there are only two pillars of Islam namely the Quran and the Sharia that's it and the identification of the outside or the out group is fantastic which is ahmadiyas who we suddenly seem to have a lot of sympathy for in the backdrop of the ca we're among the founding communities of Pakistan by the way they say this as much on their own website yeah their leader as well as the leader of Bareilles they got their comeuppance when Pakistan was created true sorry to sound cruel but anyway both of them say in fact I think one of the leaders basically says I may have my disagreements with you guys on several issues but if I were to be asked to offer water to Thirsty Hindu or a Thirsty Dog I would prefer to serve the dog as opposed to the Hindu this is the position so


opposed to the Hindu this is the position so this is the position of Hindu in the eyes of all these branches and sects despite their sectarian disputes so I don't care for their internal disagreements on the esoterics and metaphysics of Islam I am not on that that's your internal fight my question is what does this translate to as far as I am concerned and on that there is no difference everyone was very clear that this is the land where the flag of Islam needs to be revived and for greater expansion of Islam in the Indian subcontinent rather the Asian subcontinent the the the Fortress has to be Bharat and since they couldn't get Bharat in its entirety The Fortress that was established for the very same purpose was Pakistan which is why venkata calls it creating a new Madina so that this happens to be the epicenter from which Islam moves forward right you know um we you have gone into great depth about the Bengal the effect on Bengal like the first


Bengal the effect on Bengal like the first partition happened in 1905. I'm going a little bit into detail because there are many who live abroad who are you know listening in and they may not have studied Indian history so much in depth um the 1905 first partition then so you know that sowed the seeds and then you saw in 1947 uh you have East Pakistan you have West Pakistan then subsequently 1971 uh it becomes Bangladesh right now I'm going to read one part in your book uh 131 that the that you talked about you know like we when you were talking about the reason I found this very interesting even now when you mention you know about that the Sufi practices and things like that even if today you know a young person going to Dhaka you will see women all wearing sarees Bindi you know it didn't get it somewhere that thing is still there about the cultural practices it's not in conflict with that brand of Islam out there you don't see women in


brand of Islam out there you don't see women in salwar kamises you don't see hijab all that much because that whole Bengali tradition the language everything you know you I mean the only country to be born out of a language issue anyway so I'm going to read this out about the divide and Rule policy when you talked you know this thing about in 1903 uh karzan lotkerson understood that demographic religious and political implications of creating a Muslim majority Eastern Bengal and Assam and the originally stated administrative and economic reasons for the partition did not present the complete picture clearly one of kurzen's stated intentions was to nip the nascent Bengali hindu-led national movement in the bud by using Muslims of Eastern Bengal and Assam as a counterweight Curzon was quick to realize its potential political benefits such as breaking the momentum of Indian Nationalism the epicenter which was Bengal uh you know you even talked about AC majumdar's book and you know in which he corroborates


book and you know in which he corroborates curzon's employment of the divide and Rule policy and the gradual but unequal unequivocal reciprocation of the Muslims of Eastern Bengal to curzons overtures to woo them right so this is what I was trying to get at when you were talking about link it to this whole Sufi thing divide and Rule it worked at every point of time you're saying right it worked when in the Barbie and the healthy period it worked during colonial period now explain this to me so the first thing that I have tried to show through the book which I hope people have latched on to is all the wahhabis were sufis was a sanat carrying Sufi which means he was ordained as a Sufi into the Sufi order his father was a Sufi Ahmed sir Hindi was a Sufi a lot of people who let people into riots in Bengal were sufis proper riots in effectively this missionary arm of this particular mindset has


this missionary arm of this particular mindset has played a huge role both in softening as well as wielding the stick as well as the sword that much is very clear from the documents so it's very difficult for me to buy this Bollywood presented invention that when you think of Sufi think of these dervishes with the long hats the long robes just swirling around constantly in ecstasy sorry history is much more than this people swelling and it's very difficult the bloodbath that they've caused is astounding so all these people who let the bhabi movement wear sufis let's be clear about that that's one second what am I trying to say I am not denying the fact that the British indulged in The Divide and Rule policy my qualification is not divided in the rule policy it's exploit The Divide and Rule yeah exactly what I was trying to get to right is that what you were saying is that this division process had started long ago it has always existed yeah and therefore when


ago it has always existed yeah and therefore when the British realized that when there is a particular discard that can be used to their benefit to also prevent or let's say put some kind of a Fetter on claims of a separate nation or a nation order asking asking for home rule what is the principle behind this the British was very comfortable providing autonomy to those communities or those colonies which could lay claim to the to the status of being a single nation and the definition of a nation is not what we understand it today definition of Phoenician is either rebound by a single language or religion or race or whatever it is there has to be something which is homogeneous across the board so therefore they said first of all Hindus and Muslims are not a single nation even within Hindus you are not a single nation that's the extent of their argument it is around that period at radhakuman Mukherjee and everybody starts writing to say why Bharat as a civilization must be seen


say why Bharat as a civilization must be seen different from Europe's definition of a Nation so that's in your first book yeah right now when he senses an opportunity in the Muslims of Bengal and Assam who are willing to help him create a separate Muslim majority state or Muslim majority Province as a counterweight now I'm asking myself this common Bindi the common saree the rabindra Sangeet or whatever sangeeth existed before that all of that should have played a role we end up focusing too much on the softer cultural aspect without asking whether this has had the power to prevent a political tide when the chips are down and when when a crucial decision is to be taken have all these mattered I'm saying it they haven't mattered this is peacetime discussion this is the discussion of the affluent and air conditioned atmospheres drinking wine saying oh this is the greatness of the composite culture of this country when it mattered it did not okay did it matter when operation Searchlight


it did not okay did it matter when operation Searchlight was going on in 1971 no it did not no right okay let's assume for a moment uh for those who don't know about operation Searchlight and Tikka Khan please Google it and read about it because it is the most horrific incidents uh you know that has happened in South Asia which the world has ignored that genocide that happened then please Google it and read about it because it's something that the Western World completely forgot and Bangladesh was not strong enough to talk about it and uh the rest of the countries in in Asia including India did not talk about it so do Google and read about it sorry Sai so let's go before 1971 if this cultural let's say impact was so strong you shouldn't have had an Eastern Pakistan but you did why do we forget that Bangladesh was indeed East Pakistan that means they decided to go ahead with that particular decision notwithstanding the common linguistic affinities and whatnot they said we are throwing


affinities and whatnot they said we are throwing our weight Behind These set of people who subscribe to the tonation theory that's one after 1971 and after the creation of Bangladesh has it seen greater protection for the Hindu minority there in Star contrast the Hindu population of Bangladesh has come down sharply every day you hear instances of rapes forcible conversions atheist bloggers being killed so on and so forth so the Bengali Affinity or the Bengali commonality isn't strong enough to Prevail over the Islamic identity let's be very clear about that their ummahood Reigns Supreme that is established by the partition at 1947 did they say we don't wish to live with Pakistan we don't subscribe to the two Nation Theory we'd like to merge back with Bharat in 1971 that's not the decision that's not the decision post 1971 in fact one of the ambassadors I remember reading this as a school-going kid effectively told this to Bharat do you expect us to be uh grateful to You


do you expect us to be uh grateful to You For Eternity for 1971. this was the tone of Bangladesh in late 90s and early 2000s when it was not the Bangladesh of even today which has some kind of an economy to speak of but why do we expect gratitude we don't expect gratitude yeah we are asking for decent treatment of Hindu minorities there we are asking for some kind of restraint on illegal migration we are asking for some kind of restraint on the export of cows from here in an illegal fashion and the cow slaughter that happens at bharat's expense because pashuthan may not matter to you and me but it matters to the farmer we have recently seen about 10 000 cows being repatriated from that particular part and that border is so porous in fact there's a specific paragraph where I say that the infiltration into Assam has to be traced to the partition of Bengal and the antecedents of the tunation Theory start from 19.5


of the tunation Theory start from 19.5 at the very least which directly stressable to what is happening in Assam at this point so when we look at Assam so I think in 2019 just before the lockdown or the Fagan of the Year Professor Mustafa and I had a public debate on the NRC now some whose results had just been announced and this debate was organized at nulsar of which he is the vice Chancellor now I basically said you want to look at NRC and Assam independent of the issue of Bangladeshi illegal migration I'm sorry enough literature says that's not possible you need to look at it as a whole maybe 30 of the audience coughed at it so in part I'm responding to that I'm saying here's the literature deal with it so when a country such as Bharat as it exists today is the product of multiple bloody vivisections why do we look at each of these instances in isolation without understanding what are the larger dots to be


without understanding what are the larger dots to be connected here perhaps that is the central thesis of the book please learn to connect the dots right connect the docs when when you talk about that you know that Indian Muslims stayed on in uh Pakistan he stayed on in India those who stayed on in India pragmatism was a major reason right many times it was like there was no option correct right to go um I had asaduddin owaisi on the podcast recently and as you know he's very uh vocal about his identity as an Indian and as an Indian Muslim right uh now he said this and I quote it he said the reason I asked him also is because you know there people call him the modern day Jinnah in India it's a it's a very rude way of saying it but then I think General is better okay so they said that so he says that may is so he talks about staying on in India that his parents did his his ancestors did as a matter of choice right


his ancestors did as a matter of choice right not as a as a pragmatic move because of financial reason or whatever they were financially well of his family right so tell me about this that why you have a different take on this well the floodgates will open so I hope I will exercise my free speech for the fullest possible absolutely please do right so let's go to the first limb of your question which is on why did I make the statement that they stayed back for reasons of practicality and pragmatism the good part is a lot of these people said this themselves so there's a fantastic interview on YouTube of Maulana madani where he's speaking to a Pakistani journalist and he was asked this very same question why didn't everyone move there what was the reason he said that the uh you're looking at a population which has stayed in this part of the world for several Generations they had their properties here and they had their masjids here and most importantly he alludes


their masjids here and most importantly he alludes to something which is very crucial most people don't even talk about it at the time of the discussion of Pakistan even those Muslims who oppose the creation of Pakistan weren't doing so because they wanted to be part of Bharat but because they believed that this entire land belongs to Islam and therefore they said why are you settling for one third of this when the entire thing was supposed to be mughalistan so it's not that we belong to Bharat but the Converses Bharat belongs to us rather Hindustan belongs to us because it had been conquered conquered and that reference is constantly there in every speech of say that he said we have ruled this place for 800 years that's where the Smith comes from from his speeches he says this over and over again so when someone tells me no no they stayed back for patriotic reasons yes but patriotism towards patriotism towards mughalistan that is what they say now


towards mughalistan that is what they say now let's go to the next level presents a very I'd say A peculiar picture because his party is the legal successor or at the very least ideological successor of the Party founded by uh this gentleman who fled to Pakistan risby Ali rizvi a lawyer who led the razakars into the genocide of Hindus during operation Polo we should know this as people who come from Hyderabad where we have seen our families and relatives being butchered at the hands of these razakars so they would come with serrated knives you'll find razakar's being mentioned in two different parts of the world Bangladesh and in Hyderabad yeah okay so razakar is what they would do is that they would tie the male members of the family together and set them alight for the rest of the families to watch this was the nature of it the hostage population theory of the critical critical hostage population theory was pressed into service by the nizam where he used the


into service by the nizam where he used the Hindu population as the as the bargaining chip with the Indian Union that is exactly what is captured in the conversation between his prime minister and vallabhai Patel he said you know what we'll do here and do it Mr valuable says what do you think we'll be doing here right so therefore I I think it's important for people to just unpack what exactly is Mr owesi talking about what are the antecedents of his party where did they take this discussion forward there is an MIM and then there is an aimim and we are expected to believe there is absolutely no relationship between the two why don't you release the documents or the founding documents of your party and see who's taken charge from whom okay let's take the converse of the patriotism argument did Hindus of Pakistan stay back in Pakistan out of patriotism for Pakistan according to you no knowing fully well what preceded the creation of Pakistan what did they stay back for again


creation of Pakistan what did they stay back for again pragmatic and practical reasons which means they did not know how to escape because the wealthy people managed to escape the ones who couldn't they had to stay back now where does the Christian population of Pakistan come from they converted hoping that the International Community would come and save them by the way because they did not have a central Hindu organization to defend them these are the origins of Hindus in Pakistan also did not appeal to the Christians exactly to clean the toilets exactly so that because these conversations I don't think people realize this that the reason Christians stayed back was because they were leaving in droves and there was nobody to clean the toilets because they were not willing to clean the toilets with themselves and that whole famous speech of Jinnah that everybody will be free to practice their religion was because of this right and they never lived within the the living quarters or the living areas they used to live outside and


or the living areas they used to live outside and they continue to live outside the city limits now let's connect three dots this is the reality in Pakistan that's the reality of valmikis and Kashmir and that's the realities of sudras and ramashudras in Bangladesh which is to say the people who were left behind in these parts the sensitive parts were the ones who couldn't afford to leave so there is a um but overseas family like the others could afford to leave I'll come to that obesity's family you should whenever you listen to his speeches please or I would say operate in compartments where you pay attention to his Urdu speeches in his jalchas first and then see what he says in his English speeches before in English channels in Aurangabad and in Old parts of Hyderabad and other places every time they start talking they hearken back to the atrocities of operation Polo constantly speak of this as if it's a it's it's a holocaust that's visited the Muslim


it's it's a holocaust that's visited the Muslim Community that's how you speak of the accession of the Hyderabad princely State under the nizam to the Indian Union people don't read or let's say watch those speeches I've seen those speeches I know Hyderabad the Urdu as well as any other person so I know exactly what they're talking about so what is being presented to the English audience is the sanitized version now SRI aranshuri wrote a brilliant piece in his Haiti as a journalist around the ramzanubhumi period where he spoke of how temples were destroyed and how history was whitewashed he said I went to the seminaries library in the urban other places the Arabic version openly says we destroyed this Temple this Temple this Temple this Temple here identifies all of that Arabic goes through the first round of distortion where the dawn has come down a bit from Urdu to English it's gone completely and then now we are being told that ghazni


and then now we are being told that ghazni came to somnath to liberate the non-brahamas from the brahmins this is apparently apparently he had to come 17 times to liberate people and not for the gold right now when you look at all of them again this is size brand of sarcasm out here when he talks about whitewashing of History yeah that's true uh it you know there are versions now of uh invasions correct one is reading yes Mr Salman Khushi on on one of the Summits ended up saying that the uh uh the Advent of Islam to India is not a story of invasion for the story of migration apparently that's what he said whereas we are being told it has to be treated as the Aryan Invasion Theory and not the Aryan migration Theory anyways now when it comes to Mr obesity when he says this he is abundantly clear in several statements on YouTube he says Deccan that's where it comes from because then his arm was effectively the uh


comes from because then his arm was effectively the uh the sword arm of the Mughal in the south the two regions that were dear to aurangzeb where Bengal because he was the weather of that particular Suba and then the Khan which turned out to be the graveyard of the Mughal Empire right because the marathas had come up here the vijayanagar Empire all of these people were here of course vijayanagar has precedes that's a different issue but the point is they speak from a sense of ownership and which is packaged and presented as a sense of patriotism please learn to distinguish both I don't buy this for one bit so he is the same person who rushes to Assam in kokrajhar in a rather some in 2012 because he has to establish kinship with the rohingyas and others or people who are being killed there or who people who are actually killing the others then there are riots in Mumbai where the uh the soldier Memorial is destroyed around the


the uh the soldier Memorial is destroyed around the particular period by members of the risby academy or whatever Academy that is our Reza Academy he establishes some kind of sympathy with them he immediately opens up camps for all these people what is he talking about I'd like to understand why is it that Mr oasi always finds it in him to establish Sympathy for the person who's writing I don't see him talking to Tariq Fateh for that matter I think there are serious disagreements even with Mr javidactor but let me see if even Mr obesity can find in himself the ability to find common ground with Mr javidathar that's not going to happen on several issues one is a Marxist Muslim at least that's what he claims the other is I'm a practicing Muslim everything is present at his victimhood so notwithstanding his uh his let's say his gift of Gap to present this as some kind of a sacrifice that they've made that we have not gone to


that they've made that we have not gone to Pakistan we have stayed back here and all that his Urdu speeches to his home audience and his home territory is very very different I mean those speeches reflect a very different site and I'd say the true site perhaps see um you were mentioning even Salman Khushi then uh and we were talking about OAC now there are there are many Muslims who say that if we keep thinking about or if we go back to okay what are your Origins if you go back as they say you keep digging digging digging you go too much to the Grassroots you'll only get ants and you'll get mud no right so there has to be some if you keep looking at all Muslims or people who are too poor to leave right or who were uh who were avaricious who thought that oh we can have business opportunity so let us stay back if you ascribe these motives to all those who stayed back then there is no meeting route then the divisions become


there is no meeting route then the divisions become more and more dos do you agree with that I think there are some fantastic meeting rounds so let me give examples Mr KK Mohammad who has reconstructed certain temples in Batista and other places in madhya Pradesh was who also says that I don't find any conflict between my origin as a Muslim and my current belief system are in these examples of exciting during his lifetime Mr Abdul Kalam wasn't exactly seen as a celebrated member of his community because he was making weapons for Bharat he was comfortable with the bhagavad-gita played the rudravina or the winner at the very least now these kind of examples don't work because these are the examples where the process of islamization is still not complete but you're still not ready to accept it when it comes to Mohammad Rafi singing bhajans and all that you're saying see you won't see him as a I think when you choose to use Bollywood as an example I'll say anybody you


use Bollywood as an example I'll say anybody you pay money there will do anything as long as it's meant for a particular role I don't wish to see a professional performance which is meant for a particular payment or which is done at the expense of a particular consideration as any sign of uh let's say syncretic Behavior why are we looking for that I I want hard examples here why are we looking for hard examples in a make-believe world I'd like that in the real world where it truly matters okay let's do something there's a fantastic discussion or a debate that happens on the earth literus platform in 2019 with Mr owacy Mr subramanya Swami Dr subramanyami and myself and I was supposed to be the moderator there please I saw that on it's on YouTube yeah right I am not referring to any parts which are constantly turned around in WhatsApp I'm not on that at all I think it's done to death when he was asked the question of what is the


when he was asked the question of what is the position of the rest of the Indian Muslims with respect to Kashmir and Bharat relationship see how wishy-washy he gets so that means an elected member of the parliament who's been voted to bharat's parliamentary body its legislative body still doesn't wish to commit to the cultural relationship and the civilization relationship between Kashmir and Bharat he says that's a complicated issue I asked him about CA he doesn't want to acknowledge the fact that in Islamic republics Hindus get a rough deal at least in this neighborhood he doesn't want to address that I asked him if a specific legislation or an amendment comes out identifying a particular cause why don't you accept that this cause has a direct relationship with an identity of the country because then he would end up having to admit that Islamic republics give out a rough deal and a short end of the stick to Hindus at the very least in our neighborhood he doesn't want to


very least in our neighborhood he doesn't want to accept that that is with respect to Pakistan and Bangladesh he says that I have gone to Pakistan I have spoken out against the terror activities of Pakistan then why don't you acknowledge that it's the Pakistani state which is the Islamic State which is actually meeting out this kind of treatment to Hindus why doesn't he speak out against that he has all the Time in the World to establish kinship with rohingyas he has all the Time in the World to establish country with Muslims across the world including Palestinians but not for Hindus in Pakistan and Bangladesh but that reciprocal sentiment is expected it's not spoken forget ovac or forget Muslim leaders right it's not it's not something that even Hindu leaders agree in India uh pick up 100 we expect Muslim leaders to speak why should they they're saying like Pakistan why not the Hindu leaders then you know what I couldn't have made the argument better I have always said this I don't blame the Muslim


have always said this I don't blame the Muslim Community leaders or the founders of Pakistan for what they did because they had they did what according to them was divinely ordained or scripturally ordained I blame the Hindus for not doing enough and for not standing by their culture that is the essence of the first book and the second book that we are the ones buried under these degrees of coloniality where we find it so difficult to unabashedly represent our own positions stand by our own culture that's the problem okay I have a question why is it that the Communist Party always chooses to field leaders who either come from the so-called Savanna community and who are also from the Hindu background why don't we get to see people coming from the depressed classes of the society becoming heads of the Marxist party or even people coming from the Muslim background because it's the weaponization of the Hindu identity through the Marxist out because you get to say the exact argument you presented well it's not


say the exact argument you presented well it's not the Muslim saying this it's a person coming from the Hindu background who's making the statement immediately become defenseless that's how the legitimacy of the state of Israel is is undermined by using the American Jewish identity as a weapon against the Israeli Jewish identity because it's not the Muslim who's saying this it's your own guy who's saying this that's it then what you do the wind is taken out from you out of your sales no that's exactly what happens so my point is I find it useless to say that there is a problem with someone else I say the problem lies within and the problem lies within wherein we haven't produced enough committed intransigent hardliners who stick to the position of their culture as much as they are supposed to and each time the Hindu Society manages to produce them they are in the minority and they're isolated that's exactly the fight between the moderates and the extremists in the


between the moderates and the extremists in the Congress of that particular period That's the distinction moderates and extreme is true even the uh like when Vikram was talking about that this the historians there was this list so this is what happens now you are bringing up all the ashudos all of you indeed historians do you get that a lot that why are you breaking it all up now no so the reason why uh so whenever someone asks this I say fine then give up the discussion on our Invision Theory right you don't do that because that needs to be kept relevant for personalization of the Hindu community and harvesting of souls that needs to be kept relevant to keep the cast pot boiling right you need to keep doing that that needs to be kept alive to keep the language uh barriers boiling between the North and the South that needs to be kept alive for the Aryan dividend divide because it helps a particular camp in the south so if history is so irrelevant you


in the south so if history is so irrelevant you don't bring it up DK constantly brings a bar in Innovation theory in its currently publication the driver cargo which is the cultural arm started by Perrier not Perrier Eva ramaswamy right all these people continue to speak of History when there was a 27 hike in the uh reservation in mbbs seats this I remember when I was at I was ninth or the 10th standard yeah when I was getting into college at that time yeah then placard's book of RN Invasion Theory Now history is not relevant there it's on the streets tell me which part of this country and which discussion of this country is free from discussions on History then I will stop talking about history it's not the the entire purpose is to ask myself where do these problems come from how many of them are Fishers within how many of the how many of them have been created by the outside actor and two are we now seeing a repeat of history is a hundred years cycle back


a repeat of history is a hundred years cycle back are we living in the age of khilafa 2.2 is the central question that I'm asking okay that's pretty frightening okay you know you talked about hijab this is going to come up again because we're going to see elections in Karnataka so the whole hijab issue is going to come up but you talked about how hijab was something that was you know you didn't see this when you were kids you didn't see so many women in hijab in Hyderabad in the city of yours or in my uh city of origin which was you know in Karnataka so we didn't see so many but you're seeing more and more so but however uh those who defend uh more girls wearing hijab today uh is they say that it's part of Islam it's something that they are choosing to do that right um You also spoke about you know like we said that many people don't know about wahhabism that it was existing another thing which when


wahhabism that it was existing another thing which when reading your book I saw was that the role of jihad in Indian history now many students of History you know who are not students of History would think that Jihad was not prevalent in India at all that this is something that came in when again Afghanistan when that happened that movement happened correct but in your you talked about Jihad in North India I will read out a part and then you explain to me um this is uh in page 26 you say for several years after barailway's death 1831 we've gone into quite an extent it was a practice in Muslim family especially in Northern Bharat to either earmark a portion of their earnings as their contribution towards Jihad or to send their men to participate in the war at least a few months this is not so different from the present day trend of individuals from certain communities being sent to fight for the Isis now you tell me about this now you tell our viewers listeners about


me about this now you tell our viewers listeners about how Jihad existed in India it's not a New Concept for Indians so the thing is uh Syed ahmeds are Hindi and shavalula they'll be they create the doctrine the political Doctrine now it needs to be actioned and implemented now that gets actioned and implemented by uh uh this gentleman called Syed Shahid who died at a place which everybody knows now is balakot on 6th of May 1831 and that death is the reason why it becomes the training ground for jihadis that's why let's say you have all these people going there as if it's a shrine I'll tell you why it became a shrine later but this gentleman uh is he's his his Origins are traced to the prophet himself in his genealogy by the seminaries of this country they explained that he is the 36th generation descendant of so and so on so they mentioned all of that this man becomes a student of a descendant of uh sorry and


a student of a descendant of uh sorry and he starts a preaching tour you see the man couldn't read or write and members of his community interpret this as a Divine sign because apparently the prophet also couldn't read and write and therefore they said this is uh the the blessing of the Divine himself this is a karamat and so he starts his preaching tours and he effectively puts into action delavi's Vision on the ground so what does he do so his preaching towards go to all the places in uttar Pradesh that you associate with seminaries now okay Gango this place that place I mean the so-called ganga Germany region is his uh let's say his uh experimental ground that entire region then he goes to different parts of the country but the one part which he goes to which translates to establishing a fantastic infrastructure is Patna because Patna was then called azimabad because uh azimabad I think is perhaps the name of a grandson of Shah Jahan or something or maybe some


grandson of Shah Jahan or something or maybe some descendant of organization but that's what it was called before previously used to have the azimabad express so people think so people think so he goes to Patna and then there is a a family of four or five brothers who are so enamored by his teachings who now decide that we will commit ourselves through his teachings now his teachings are not just to uh let's say Islam is the Hindu or rather the Indian Muslim more but he wants to collect an army to fight the Sikh Empire in Punjab okay because the Sikh Empire has created trouble for the Muslim empires of India as well as to Afghanistan and since the pathan has always been seen as the sword arm of the Indian Muslim and uh says in his speeches if ever we get into trouble the tribes the lushkas from pathan will come and help us that's a statement by the way and they were they they requested for them also they requested for them yeah


they requested for them also they requested for them yeah and even uh bareilly requests for their help as well right he asked for it and he gets it so there are two brothers so Indian history has seen two pairs of Brothers both of them go by the name Ali Brothers the second set of Ali brothers are around the khilafat period with whom Mr Gandhi has a fantastic relationship and the first set of Ali brothers are direct Disciples of barailway they established according to me the finest and the most well entranced wahhabi Network across the country in the south in the West in the East and the north across the board for funneling of money for collection of arms for indoctrination of people and for collection of soldiers to be recruited for the fight against the sick Empire first and then the British Empire their movement is single-handedly the reason for the enactment of this Edition law in 1870. it was to fight them that the Sedition law comes into existence and that's what I've


Sedition law comes into existence and that's what I've explained in the book the origin of 290 the origin of 295a comes from them not to fight a non-violent peaceful people what threat was the Congress posing to the British nothing they were seen as collaborators of the British they were established by the British so it made no difference but it's to fight them so they connect they collect all the money so bareilly goes to uh goes to what is uh what is known as sorry ghazni he goes to ghazni and he pays his respects to Mahmoud he goes and stays he goes and stays there Pays His respect of the Muslim of ghazni and they are not even connected but he finds a kinship there right this man then starts the Jihad he believes that the only way that we can action this is by bringing back the implementation of the doctrine of jihad which is an essential element of establishment of political Islam so Delhi makes it abundantly clear his intellectual Godfather that an Islamic


abundantly clear his intellectual Godfather that an Islamic State cannot function without wielding the sword of jihad it needs that because it may it it creates the way it clears the path so bareilly also carries swords on his person so that he sends a message to his followers that militarization of the Muslim Community is essential all of this happened so Jihad has been around for such a long period now the most modern educated sophisticated exponent of the centrality of jihad foreign the first education minister of this country who was a wahhabi and that I've explained in the book because He follows he was a wahhabi at the outset that the first thing and the second thing is he also is a follower of the other uh uh let's say figure that I mentioned of the 19th century Afghani both these people effectively decided that why are we constantly emphasizing on the pacifist nature of Islam and that's not the case Jihad is a central Doctrine and it's not as if it's an


central Doctrine and it's not as if it's an internal fight to the Demons Inside it is a very clear military Doctrine the establishment of an Islamic caliphate requires the centrality of jihad to be revived all of these discussions happen this discussion goes on from the mid 17th century and right until who was presented as a nationalist Muslim to us and I think he is the ancestor of Amir Khan anyways the point is Amir Khan's son is named as Azad I think the surrogates and I think is called Azad so the point is Jihad is misunderstood when we speak of ahabism when we speak of jihad you see what we start doing is it must have started only after the Russian invasion of Afghanistan and then Taliban was created and that spilled over into Kashmir the existence of the of rather the presence of hobbies in the 1800s and kashmiris is documented I have heard very very senior government functionaries at International fora say that Jihad did not exist


at International fora say that Jihad did not exist in India and no Indians went as mercenaries or no Indians brought mercenaries into India now what you're saying is that that is that is a farce that it's it's always happened for I would say those are the compulsions of running a secular government I'll leave it at that but if they really want to speak facts on History I'd say please let's not have this discussion one of us is bound to be embarrassed let's leave it at that all I would say is the document so there's a fantastic book uh called partisans of Allah by Asha Jalal yeah you quote extensively in the book in this Jihad in South Asia correct yeah there you will see and I've quoted even Sana Haroon she clearly shows that each of the founders of Taliban where the products of simile is established by the abandis in those parts of the world because you see the urban was attracting heavily people from Afghanistan okay considering


attracting heavily people from Afghanistan okay considering that it is possible to make the argument and I would say one of the persons that you must read one of the journalists whose work I follow regularly is yeah he's written extensively on this and he agrees that we think it's a relatively recent thing but it's part of a longer phenomenon so neither Jihad is new to this country nor wahhabism is new to this country so which is why in the introductory portions of the book I've clearly said I am going to make the case here that somehow we seem to be valuing in this comfortable notion that neither Jihad nor wahhabism have any Indian connections but let's bust that myth and make this discussion as uncomfortable as possible so that the secular myths are busted as early as possible yeah very very so okay uh you mentioned balacode you know and uh I'm going to read out a portion of that um you know for those who don't know about balacode


you know for those who don't know about balacode it's the same Balor court that PSY talks to talks about which in February 2019 we had the cross voter strikes um and he says in this is where he says that uh history tends to reward those with long Collective memory uh now while mentioning uh balakoti uh you know he talks about Aisha dalal's book which we just discussed uh and this is a quote from there it says that balakot in many ways is the epicenter of jihad in South Asia it's also a point of entry into the history of jihad uh struggle in the way of Allah in the subcontinent it was here that uh Saeed Ahmad of ribarelli 1786 to 1831 and Shah is merely 1779 to 1831 quintessential Islamic Warriors in South Asia South Asian Muslim Consciousness fell in the battle against Sikhs on 6th May 19 1831 uh and uh Psy talks about this battle of balakot where uh Prince Sher Singh was leading the


balakot where uh Prince Sher Singh was leading the Sikhs and uh bareilly was beheaded and Shah Ismail the hell we was also killed out here uh balakot was the was the epicenter of terrorism hundreds of years ago is it coincidence then that India decided to attack palakot or history there was there was a Mark that the BJP government wanted to make or the NSA or the defense establishment do you do you see a connection at all I don't think that the establishment was operating from a sense of historical consciousness I think they were operating from a more strategic perspective because balakot was and Remains the training ground so the only way to send a strong message is not by killing the food soldiers but by killing the teachers themselves for hundreds of years 100 yeah that has been the case so the swath Valley and its centrality in providing home to the wahhabis of that particular period malka sithana all these places they are not new they are


all these places they are not new they are not the creation of the 1980s so not just the seminaries you're talking about even training grounds for militant Islam yes okay huge because they've always depended on the lushkars and the tribes to provide them with a cannon fodder right and therefore they've established their institutions there the British struggled to kill them there each time they would go they would raise it to ground they would burn it to ground and they'll come back again there's been going on and on and on and that's why there's no industry no development in those areas because historically of course there's an industry it's just a terror industry it's okay the military Jihad uh complex complex right now that has served them historically and it they continue to provide that Cannon photo that you call correct right in Bala court so when when Pakistan put out those pictures and said and not anything significant they were lying correct they couldn't have admitted that such a central spot was hit and because as


that such a central spot was hit and because as I said it just it doesn't have just a strategic significance it also has a spiritual significance and I'll explain why now now you see when uh barelby was beheaded they couldn't find either the body or the head one of these two things was missing and again they said miracle miracle okay like Kabir what can't be explained must be attributed to Miracle okay and so it became a shine so people would go there to pay their respects and not just these people would travel all the way from Bengal from uttar Pradesh and other places to go pay their respects now when someone tells me minority Fringe people are contributing my way of money celebrates the fact that the Muslim Community of that particular point of time was celebrating men and money or rather supporting uh contributing men and money to the wahhabi movement he says this in his book in 1847 he says this in his book and after the rebellion of 1857 when the British came


after the rebellion of 1857 when the British came down heavily on all these people he redacts that portion of the book in the subsequent Edition he is celebrating the death of the very same person you read out yes this is the history how much are we going to be subjected to Distortion further now the important thing for people to understand is this is not an academic discussion no what you're doing is to say it is a continuing problem it's a continuing issue and if you choose to close your eyes to this and behave like an ostrich that doesn't mean that facts are going to change it only means you're closing your eyes to your own detriment onto your own peril I am not here to sell fear psychosis I have present so the book has been around for four and a half months now it was launched on the 23rd of August I have extracted primary sources why can't people count to me on these facts let people show that these primary sources are lies they won't be able to


these primary sources are lies they won't be able to because these are extracts from the official translation of the Muslim League even your lawyer Community your the other lawyers are now terrified that your book is not going to uh form a part of you know uh the academic uh criteria or necessary reading for lawyers so they are all very worried and I'll actually give them the bad news the bad news is Cambridge has accepted both books as part of its Library Digital Library terrible news terrible news now how are you going to deal with this and your fans are saying that look counter him on facts because your book you have quoted God knows how much is research that has gone in in both your books in fact you know so it's it's hard they are uncomfortable truths let me tell you this like it's not wherever you say things uh say when when you just said on Azad even your views on Mahatma Gandhi they are uncomfortable sorry if I may say so correct because anything that you know you've


may say so correct because anything that you know you've learned since childhood right you there is a comfort factor your teachers taught you that your parents taught you that you know when you're saying Mahatma Gandhi and then you hear Sai what am I supposed to do tell me I would say uh have you watched this movie Matrix yes I'm learning from marvelous and who's giving you the red pill and I was telling you you're living in The Matrix okay and is unplugging it from The Matrix and was basically saying this Matrix has been created by a combination of three factors history textbooks the sanitized political discourse uh Collective Amnesia of this particular civilization and the fourth X Factor Bollywood okay maybe soft culture pop culture so to speak not just Bollywood is just a representation through books and whatnot we are constantly fed this nonsense you speak of a Zakir Hussain and say this he's the product of syncretic tradition I'd say you know what he is comfortable doing the


say you know what he is comfortable doing the Saraswati Vandana all the singers and of the khans of the particular tradition are doing a comfortable doing all of that because it's part of the particular tradition they've imbibed the particular tradition but if you were to ask their core religious if they approve of it they'd be the first ones to be subjected to a fatwa I am not the one making this argument how many people want examples he's living in California it's very easy correct I I don't know if he could live in Pakistan or even in Kashmir for that matter uh if uh I don't know how many people remember this every time an Indian cricketer so celebrates a Hindu festival despite being a Muslim or for whatever reason just go through his comments now just go through the comments and the hate mail that he receives take a look at that as well you see the thing is I don't have a problem with the good parts that exist I'm only saying don't turn


good parts that exist I'm only saying don't turn a blind eye to the parts which are dangerous which are problematic so uncomfortable truths I would only say that perhaps we are a Crossroads generation who's comfortable worldview is completely being shaken so intellectual Elites become very uncomfortable with people like you uh and uh you know we had I had Anand ranganathan here and abhijeet also and they were like uh you people like you and Vikram and all there was no Hawa to what you were saying there was no oxygen provided to your books not Publishers not literary festivals and now those intellectual Elites have to now accept that you're part and parcel of the conversation so there are three things Hindu belief system says that some generation benefits from the prayers of the past and I would say that we are benefiting at the expense of the bitter lives and deaths of previous brand of historians of the previous generation of historians who did not get there at you so I would say as


not get there at you so I would say as I did in the introduction of the first book that this is an old ashadhanjali to all those tall words including SRI aranshori for him to have done what he did in the in the period that he was active fantastic amazing for someone to take those positions you know your fraternity better than writer so the less said the better so all I'm gonna say is we are benefiting from that and two the age of social media apart from all the garbage that is produced has also given birth to a democratization of opinion which means I am no more at the mercy of the editor who chooses to cut paste or let's say chop my letter to him and then puts it in a fashion manner that is suitable to his own ideology that's not happening anymore three did it happen to you several times articles uh which were solicited were returned I never said I want I want space give it to me it doesn't I mean


want space give it to me it doesn't I mean it doesn't make a difference to me I'll create my own space but you asked for it I gave it you couldn't handle it that's okay okay point three that you were making right three is uh I would say that the audience has had enough of this nonsense so there is a audience that is hungry for this content which is why I look back to your first question are we producing enough content to keep Pace with the hunger of the audience actually no there's a greater opportunity here they want decolonization of culture they want decolonization of Music they want decolonization of History they want decolonization of language and whatnot because we have just barely skinned the surface the surface of the surface at this point is there an age group that you're seeing this hunger for more information are they just youngsters who are saying that you know we've we got only one side of the picture or are you seeing middle aged people older people yeah yeah 13


you seeing middle aged people older people yeah yeah 13 year olds 18 year olds doing a fantastic job of critiquing my book in a very constructive way that jigyasa is that word so from that age group till the I'd say the late 70s they're saying finally we are we we managed to see this before we pass away and then this generation is saying oh this also exists now the one thing that allow me to make this humble correction lit force a litfest are no more able to ignore us yeah no absolutely and the reason is what can you do when the public is accepting this content you are not able to accuse me of plagiarism which is your standard go to Trope because I'm an IP lawyer by practice come after me and I'll rip you apart I'll take you to the cleaners then on content I'm saying I am not claiming expertise here I am standing on the shoulders of giants I am doing what any scientific publication would do which is Citation citation citation citation 900


publication would do which is Citation citation citation citation 900 footnotes and endnotes deal with it and these are you can't even go after the central literature because a lot of it comes from Pakistan yeah you've got that too not just majum yeah I've gone to Pakistan I've gone to Muslim Publishers I've translated as much as possible all of this has happened so I would say that I wouldn't want to take credit for what's happening there is a willing audience all I have done is tried my best to cash in on that particular momentum to ensure that the content satisfies their hunger to the best of my abilities and my limited abilities so I hope more and more people come out this is merely 1.0 we need better people doing this trained people doing this as a full-time lawyer and a practicing advocate who spends about 12 to 13 hours in court what I'm doing is part-time and I will do this only partner because I have no intentions of transitioning to a writer and author I


intentions of transitioning to a writer and author I don't want those Brands I'm very comfortable with my identities or I am in love with it so I don't want it but you need people to do this full time a few years ago I happened to attend this small lecture by SRI Michelle danino who was part of the ichr then under this government and then he came out after his term he said we don't have epigraphists we don't have archaeologists we don't have people who know Indian languages we don't have people who understand old Sanskrit so on and so forth those are primary Scholars in the priority list of Scholars I am somewhere in the 10th or the 11th rank this is the grade that we want but the politics surrounding this discussion prevents the talent from going to this particular scholarship because everybody's saying if I take up Sanskrit as my study will I not be branded as so I am basically saying I will fight this battle others who are better qualified


I will fight this battle others who are better qualified please go and startino correct I mean you you need a job you need to work unless you're one of those Elites who you know I mean we were talking about your law profession I mean the the book India Bharat and Pakistan uh it talks about the Constitutional journey of a sandwiched civilization now you know they were all uh eminent lawyers if I'm not mistaken and they were they were intellectual Giants also and they were labeled in their lifetime but if hypothetically speaking suppose they were there today would they also think that our constitution needs to be shaved off of this colonial uh layers that we have so I don't see eye to eye on anything with EV ramaswami I don't and I think he was someone who needed to be dealt with encountered on a very serious basis because he has entrenched this fault line of the Aryan davidyan myth in Indian politics and it's an extremely poisonous pernicious malicious myth


an extremely poisonous pernicious malicious myth so I'm never going to be able to call him I can't call Gandhi Mahatma uh in fact he would have been the first one to attack me for both my books just as his followers are right uh as far as Dr ambedkar is concerned he's a mixed bag he may agree with a few things he wouldn't have on quite a few things including on my positions of what he thought was the reality of the cast of the history of the cast at least I would say I know neither Sanskrit nor do I know tradition or the shaddarshanas of the Hindu philosophy properly so be very careful about making any comment about these subjects and he admitted that he was not trained in any of these subjects and still he would he went on to make serious comments about these subjects which is where he had a massive dialogue between himself and Gandhi as part of annihilation of cast where he finally said no I have not read


cast where he finally said no I have not read Sanskrit my primary source is all he has been able to say so I'd say the one thing that about Dr ambedkar perhaps I would say is if he had been debated or engaged with perhaps he would have changed his position in his own lifetime that's a possibility but the sad part of the current reality is so-called ambedkarites are not even half as red as Dr ambedkar and they are not as open to engagement as Dr ambedkar to that extent I will limit it because even on Dr ambedkar's contribution to the Constitution I'll speak about it in the third and the fourth books because there's a lot that has happened there's a lot that we have inherited so how much can we give credit to a particular individual for having drafted the entire Constitution I'm not sure of it okay we talked about you know um the origins of or the the what should I say about article uh 295 a uh and uh that it's


about article uh 295 a uh and uh that it's kind of you know the what should blasphemy provision yes uh in the Constitution that we have those of our viewers listeners um living abroad who don't know about it now 295 A.D deals with deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious feelings of any class by insulting its religious or religious beliefs now this there is according to the Indian Penal Code destruction damage defilement of a place of worship or an object held sacred with intent to insult the religion of a class of persons punishable with imprisonment which may extend to two years uh or with fine with both now this is used a hell of a lot when it comes to the hijab issue when it comes to everything when about blasphemy what are your views about this time to change it time to what should we do so just a small correction previously you mentioned the 295a I mentioned section 124a of the IPC which deals with tradition yeah so here section


IPC which deals with tradition yeah so here section 295 way of the IPC that I'll be dealing with in the third book because that deals with what happened around 1924. around the khilafat period when uh Swami shradhanand is undertaking the reconversion of the malkana rajputs and all that back to the Hindu fold so effectively he was undertaking all of this was happening so the I think tempers were afraid the tensions around that particular period and you have to realize that undivided Punjab was Muslim majority no wonder it contributed significantly to the territory of Pakistan and electorally as well so a very nasty pamphlet is issued by members of the other community on sitama it is in response to that that rangila rasool gets published and that leads to the litigation and that leads to the murder of the editor so on and so forth on the on the steps of the court itself all of this happens now obviously then the government of that particular period


now obviously then the government of that particular period with the support and uh the advice of Mr Gandhi who said we need a legal provision to address blasphemy so blasphemy comes with significant contribution and input of Mr Gandhi so that's the other 190 this is 295 a 295 a only half so this is 25.95 sedition is 124 120 okay that comes to address the wahhabi movement okay this is this is later now you have to realize that before that something else happens I think it's a 1921 1921 or 24 I don't remember exactly so the ninth chapter of the book I would say please read it and it's a crucial chapter ninth chapter ninth chapter it's the two Nation theory in action correct yeah now you should read the portion uh about kohat first because kohat is in nwfp that's 484 page which is like with Malika and gulbarga correct yeah so there what happens is around krishnashtami or janmashtami remember that by that time the Muslim population of


remember that by that time the Muslim population of that particular place comes down to seven uh 93 and Hindu population is seven percent that's it they're outnumbered heavily someone writes a nasty poem on uh Shri Krishna in response members of the Hindu community and I think sanatana Dharma Sabha a gentleman a Ram jivan or jeevan Ramadan remember he responds in kind immediately fatwas are issued and uh just as it happened in Malabar literally they were beating drums to invite people from the neighboring villages to finish off the Hindu population there the Hindu population doesn't know what to do so the heads of the community of the Hindu population they go and they make a public apology saying this was a mistake forgive us but no three days burning looting raping ransacking it goes on no support or help from the British government SOS calls go out over and over again nothing happens then after the third or the fourth day when they realize what's


third or the fourth day when they realize what's happening I think from the Rawalpindi contourment the British Armed Forces come in and they've Evacuate the entire population which means there is no possibility of them continuing to live there that's how almost The Exodus of Hindu Exodus of cohort happens that is effectively what is in Pakistan currently Pakistan in case people don't know correct and you should see the exchange between Lara and Mahatma Gandhi during that particular period Mahatma Gandhi is telling the Hindus who have come from kohat don't go back until the Muslims of kohata are in a position to welcome you back so don't go back and I think they've not gone back still now coming to Punjab fortunately the Hindu population was not in this micro minority region it was not seven percent it was significant so therefore there was a retaliation saying that since we are in decent numbers V2 can respond now and then when they realize that this if this


now and then when they realize that this if this is if this goes out of hand you're effectively looking at a mini Civil War kind of a situation and so blasphemy as a law comes about now coming to the current data relevance in the Contemporary relevance of it on a daily basis when you look at Twitter and quite a few handles and I'm talking about relevance only in India in Pakistan it's a different ball game correct correct and the origins are from undivided into undivided India yeah now one of the things that I think uh SRI Dr Anand ranganathan and I had a discourse come debate or a discussion come debate on the subject in Pune earlier yeah I saw it last year yeah right it is my belief and I come purely from the protection of the Hindu interest despite being a practicing lawyer but as a practicing Hindu which is that the presence of the provision has made no difference to the ones who are who are comfortable wielding the knife


ones who are who are comfortable wielding the knife because the law is not returning to someone who's willing to do that but around the gyanvapi period and around the nupur Sharma controversy period I know of quite a few Delhi based journalists coming from the Muslim Community who hastily deleted all their tweets about the ganvapi mosque when they made fun of it in the worst of terms possible vulgar language was used they deleted it when they realized that action if action could be initiated against nupur Sharma so could it be against others as well that's how even I think Mr zubair also deleted quite a few of his tweets of the last three years which landed him in trouble so the point is if we are to operate within the bounds of the Constitution and if it has to be an equal let's say playing field for all concerned it is not an equal playing field because some people don't seem to care for the existence of the law in which case at the very least I


the law in which case at the very least I must have a legal handle to resolve some of these disputes in a forum which believes in peace and justice so 295a is an unfortunate existential necessity to protect our interests in certain ways in an Ideal World I'd say as long as you can have a civil discussion there's no problem and we have had several sampathayas in this country even before the Advent of Islam and Christianity which didn't agree with each other but which were comfortable living with each other and disagreeing with each other Still They had they held competitions they held shastra and whatnot that's a different issue in fact they'd even go to the extent of spewing Venom against each other but somehow they managed to reign in the sword right but you'd now say that bring out take out the shatra spirit yes shatra spirit is not the same as wanton violence shatra's spirit is when someone says that uh we will challenge you despite the existence of the law are Hindus even


despite the existence of the law are Hindus even deprived of the right of self-defense I'll give you a state of example here in 1990 it's not as if the presence of the Army in Kashmir was any less right we are in January 2022 or 2023 a few days away from 19th of January so did the presence of the army prevent The Exodus of kashmiri Hindus or kashmiri pundits to be specific no it did not right did the presence of the Indian establishment the Constitution the police prevent people from posting plasters in kairana asking for The Exodus of Hindus no it did not did it prevent the massacre of Hindus in the aftermath of the postpole violence in Bengal in 2021 no it did not so when people say there is the Constitution there is everything I agree with all of this but I'm equally a realist and I've seen what has happened did it prevent the uh the massacre of Hindus in kokraja riots no it did


of Hindus in kokraja riots no it did not in fact on the contrary section 66a and 69a were invoked by the then government through its then INB minister to gag on certain handles such as even that of Mr kanchan Gupta who was reporting on what was happening there I know this for a fact by evening they removed the block or the the the gag on the particular handle because I had written a post specifically saying how this is uh illegal and what is the way to get it out I'm not saying that that is why they removed it but they realized how drastic the measure had been so somehow the establishment of the system and all these procedures seem to come in the way of access to justice of Hindus so what am I supposed to say then I'm supposed to repeat the golden knights of Mr Mahatma Gandhi who asked the Jews to go to the gas chamber when Hitler was pushing them into gas Chambers I'm not going


pushing them into gas Chambers I'm not going to say that I am only going to say protect your family protect your people because you can't trust the state to arrive at the right time when you need help how is that wrong is self-defense taken away from constitutional morality is it not part of my basic right so then what pragya thakur said keep knives no it's like this the thing is I wish sadhi pragya knew how to speak in English and in queen's English because then perhaps her point would have found better purchase because she wore saffron had a Tikka and has Savvi in her name and said it in Hindi she's obviously vilified and castigated so you have lawyers from the other community around the ca actively telling people to buy arms they went ahead and processed even uh licenses for uh for firearms I don't want to name the individuals concerned and we can't even tell people protect yourself what is the difference right you're not just saying protect yourself you're


right you're not just saying protect yourself you're saying arm yourself no so I'm not going to be a mouthpiece for anybody else let me clarify my position here my position is there is a difference between being peaceful and being pacifist I am saying don't be pacifists be peaceful which means look at peace as the first option of Resort but if that's not something that's on the table and that's not even up for negotiation by the other party then protect yourself and therefore shatra's Spirit effectively says is that going to happen that pacifist nature of Hinduism is supposed to have kept this civilization alive despite despite the invasions despite the Colonials contrary it's the martial spirit that has kept this civilization alive the vijayanagar Empire Rana Pratap the marathas do you think they were being peaceful and therefore they would let alive no no not at all pacifism has crept into this country after the introduction of the arms Act and the British where they


introduction of the arms Act and the British where they chose to take away your weapons and they chose to ban all your Martial Traditions such as color repair which is practiced in the southern part of the country all these Traditions were banned so Kali repair 2 is effectively a martial art which is which is believed to have been founded by SRI parasurama and therefore it is in the parashramakshatra which is the entire from konkan to Malabar the entire region is practiced now the point is it is absolutely factually and historically inaccurate to believe that the peace loving nature of Hindus is responsible for their continued survival no it's the sword that protected you someone constantly wielded the sword it's sakshatria dakshatra and the non-shatriyas who ended up taking the role of shatriyas they were the ones to do this for us this pacifism is the consequence of the moderate Spirit introduced into Indian public discourse by the creation of this entity called


Indian public discourse by the creation of this entity called the Congress I say this very clearly that it was done to diffuse a fire AO Hume had seven volumes of report saying that there was an underground movement building with massive collection of arms and there would be a massive repeat of 1857 or even worse then he chooses to come out with the safety wealth theory that we need to create a political body which provides let's say a platform for ventilation so that this anger is dissipated and therefore we have our ears to the ground that ears to the ground is is the Congress right while I'm heading towards conclusion I have two more questions uh one is about two things which I want you to tell me difference between Hinduism and hindutva is it the same thing or not you've been asked this a million times but still Hinduism and hindutva and is Dharma and sanatan Dharma the same thing right so uh hindutva is a religio political civilizational construct which is resistive


a religio political civilizational construct which is resistive in nature protect Hindu Dharma and its adherence it is a necessity of the times we live in unfortunately so even after several years of savarkar's passing and I've said this on my debate with Mr tarut or Dr tharur that it came much before Sava current was actually formulated by Chandra bhushu not sauvarka savarka did not coin Hindu it came much before him and a detailed extract exists an exposition of what is Hindu in that particular sense translates to Ness and therefore it's hindu-ness and it is to say where that identity with pride so Hinduism is the object of protection hindutva is both the sword as well as the shield to protect that particular Hindu nature that's the answer now from my perspective what does it translate to I've clearly said in the first book that a civilizational attempt at rediscovering your roots and re-inscribing your values on the political establishment is hindutva and


your values on the political establishment is hindutva and it is perfectly Justified we don't need to be apologetic about it even one bit so Hinduism can coexist peacefully along with hindut they don't need to be in dissonance with each other the existence of Hinduism in the current day is predicated on hindutra being kept alive if in Hinduism were living in peace time hindutva will sleep but if that's not the case hindutva has to stand up it is the shatra aspect of Hinduism that's profound okay now coming to the Dharma and Sanam there is no distinction to the best of my limited knowledge is an untamed person my training has just about begun see Dharma is seen as a code of conduct but if you go deeper what is the meaning of Dharma it comes from uh Rita is the root from Rita which is effectively righteousness in thought it comes down to Satya which is righteousness in speech and Dharma is righteousness in action so it is that


Dharma is righteousness in action so it is that is the three layered philosophy between this so Dharma is the final manifestation of Rita okay therefore Rita is what is right and righteous according to cosmological balance so whatever is meant to keep this balance in the same place and alive is Dharma so Dharma is Dharma which is that which sustains what does it sustain this Cosmic balance is because it is effectively a principle of the universe it is therefore Immortal and eternal okay you know you were talking about hindutva and shatra now um as we head closer to elections in uh in Karnataka this whole thing about hindutva is going to come up because the Congress in Karnataka I'm coming back to the president the Congress in Karnataka keeps talking about the BJP being uh that they're extremists I think the word is ugragami that is used against uh uh against the BJP that they are extremists of Hinduism and that is going to disrupt peaceful


Hinduism and that is going to disrupt peaceful Society in Karnataka now there are several elections which are coming about this whole thing about who is a Hindu is something that is going to come again and again and there is going to be weaponization of political Hinduism that's going to happen right what do you see the future if of this intellectual debate degenerating into this political discourse is rarely intellectual you know this better than I do it has no space for nuance it has no space for layers it has no space or patience which is why I stay away from the the hustle and bustle and the Advent right of daily politics because that's not my concern my investment hopefully and the investment of my time is in the society because my hope is that a more Hindu conscious Society will produce better options as and when the times call for it because I think it will or they will and therefore this nonsensical discussion that happens at the political platform I don't


discussion that happens at the political platform I don't think anybody knows what they're talking about beyond the point and I'm not saying this from a position of arrogance I am saying this as a student of the subject as someone who understands political science that I don't know if they are capable of actually having this discussion at length Beyond a prime time television debate because that would really show what is the depth of their knowledge and their understanding of their own positions we are not looking at the ideologues of a particular movement you're looking at people who are contesting elections yeah right so I don't want to even give them and let's be real and they are the ones who are influencing voting public so you know how important that is right so between you and me let's uh agree on one thing societal discussion has a certain degree of nuance by the time it percolates let's say it it telescopes into a political discussion that Nuance comes out but even the societal discussion


that Nuance comes out but even the societal discussion doesn't usually have Nuance it is then in the intellectual Elites where the Nuance actually comes so I would basically apply the Hindu philosophy of desha kalasamya which is to say this platform requires a broad attack on a particular position or a broad exposition of a certain position I can't help the fact that the nature of the process and the nature of the platform doesn't lend itself to Nuance but does it capture the broad essence of it I would say it does well I didn't understand desha kala which is to say a discussion that happens perhaps let's say uh in a seminar on hindut between academics is not going to be the same as a discussion between politicians correct right so therefore the space will determine the degree of nuance that is possible however the nature of political discussion is that it's going to be motivated only Beyond a point right but to the extent that it captures the point Mota Mota I'm


extent that it captures the point Mota Mota I'm okay with it and there's a good reason for this why this particular position has not had representation for such a long time and such a forceful representation and as a community which is already lacking in options I am not going to be nitpicking here to say I need someone who is able to Define hindutva with a greater degree of nuance all right let's get real then it falls upon the society to inform itself better independent of the political discussion also it's not just political it's happening with this but on controversy also and in Bollywood the whole thing about Bollywood no it is becoming important no the you saw recently I agree with you but I'll tell you where all these Bollywood people they met up with yogi and they said that stop this ban uh culture Because unless you speak up for us it's not it's impacting on industry also now so let me say something which most people may not even anticipate the speed with which the


may not even anticipate the speed with which the community reacted to the pathan controversy is not the speed with which it reacts on freedom of temples from the state is not the speed with which it reacts on environmental issues so these insta gratification issues we seem to be quick to uh take up to and and immediately react because oh we did this we got something boycotted that was the end of it okay but what next so in one of my discussions I've clearly said hindutva or Hindu decoloniality has two aspects one is the resistive the other has to be very very positive it means make sure that your institutions are self-sufficient and are independent of the state make sure that your institutions reach out to people on two important sectors health and education make sure that no woman from this particular Community is ever unsafe make sure that no person from this particular Community is ever hungry ever goes unfed at nights this is exactly what the temples used to do that at


exactly what the temples used to do that at the end of the day before the Templar shut the pujari comes out waving a bell is anybody hungry is anybody hungry is anybody hungry the reputation that or let's say the perception of the lungers in the popular mind has to be the perception of people with respect to mothers because at the end of the day is our concept right so these are certain positives now all these discussions are not capable of being had at the political level because it's when you're on a constant election cycle where is the scope for these kind of discussions so there are two Realms I would say the societal realm where hindut was spoken of and discussed and and entrenched in better ways in more positive ways and then the political realm where it is it's it's a free-for-all it's a battle that can't be helped I am not going to take away the right of the society to discuss an entrance citing the political discussion and the lack


an entrance citing the political discussion and the lack of its nonsense sorry the comparison is unfair okay well thank you so much I and uh all the best uh I hope your book does very well because it is it's like you said that you have cited so many sources and it's very interesting reading and I hope not just uh youngsters who are interested in history but everybody gets to read this thank you very much for coming thank you for giving me please thank you thanks thank you very much for listening in to this edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste foreign [Music]


we want the internet to be absolutely free from domination of any Monopoly duoply we want the internet to be a safe and trusted space we don't want this toxic chaotic anything goes Nobody is held accountable type of a domain the Digital Data protection personal data protection bill is going to create a significant behavioral change amongst all those entities who collect user data how can anybody want an internet to be toxic and chaotic and who benefits from that certainly not the platforms who are going to get all kinds of hate mail you know the Indian internet is very different from the internet of around the world because of prime minister Narendra Modi ji delivering so much of governance on the internet the world is looking at India post covet very differently what we have achieved in covet through the power of our technology enablement that the Prime Minister his foresight from 14 to 19 the stuff that the government of India did and that has really helped us distinguish ourselves so differently from every other


us distinguish ourselves so differently from every other country in the covert time prime minister has been absolutely gracious we will share our Technologies our learnings our know-hows and our expertise with the world's countries on the issue of agneepath and I I say this uh with seriousness it is a very powerful and a very good thing for the future of our armed forces and the future of Indian youth I have played badminton as a youngster on a badminton court with a fighter pilot to find two days later that he died in a crash for me the fact that I couldn't serve my nation in uniform uh in a sense I I think I'm compensating by serving in public life now Namaste jaihind welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is three-time Member of Parliament Rajiv Chandra shekhar besides being a politician Rajiv is also an entrepreneur and technocrat he serves in the Modi cabinet as minister of State for electronics and information technology


as minister of State for electronics and information technology and minister of State for skill development and Entrepreneurship Rajiv doesn't hesitate to speak his mind on administrative reforms National Security and Welfare of veterans joining me in the podcast is my colleague sahil Pandey welcome to the podcast Mr chandrashekhar we are very very happy that you're here with us a million questions we want to ask you since you are the Modi government's go-to person on everything digital this podcast will be about of course skill India it will be about the new digital bill but there'll also be politics so I will ask you about the Gujarat election about Himachal results but first of course about this Twitter files I mean you have said that you know this is weaponization of misinformation uh with regard to Twitter files so I would want to know about this new digital policy and how it's going to safeguard Indians and the Indian digital space but before I do all that for those of our viewers and readers who


that for those of our viewers and readers who don't know and listeners who don't know about what Twitter files is all about here's a short explainer uh because you know uh it is a controversy and it is something which is impacting on many people so I thought I would do a short explainer and after that ask you about this Twitter files is a document written by a journalist which exposed the blacklisting and Shadow Banning done by Twitter before Elon Musk bought in so Mr Chandra shekar my question follows after this explainer that how is this new digital law that you're bringing about how is this going to safeguard Indians from The Fallout of this weaponization of of Twitter as you said Thank you for having me this is the first podcast that I'm doing after I think three three and a half years so okay uh so thank you for having me um look uh I have said this for some years now uh first as a member of Parliament and then after uh the Prime Minister Modi gave


and then after uh the Prime Minister Modi gave me this opportunity to serve in his Council ministers I've said that uh we must understand how the internet has evolved the internet evolved sort of it's being came it came to being an evolved as a force of good and I despite uh how old I look or don't look I've been involved in the internet from the earliest days of his Creation in the U.S and it was seen as this Utopia where all things could happen and good people came together we exchanged ideas there were debates and all of that was true for uh several decades and years still the creation of this uh monster called social media over the last decade and it has become very clear that social media as much as it represents a force of good also represents danger and use or harm and one of the principal areas of use or harm that is coming out of social media and the internet in general is this issue of this this characteristic and rapidly proliferating


issue of this this characteristic and rapidly proliferating uh strategy in some sense of people using misinformation and misinformation has a certain Dynamic to it and we have conducted in the ministry and in the government detailed studies which shows that fake news misinformation disinformation has a totally different velocity characteristic reach characteristic compared to real facts and real news which is boring by Nature yeah it may not be boring I mean it may be really factual that India launches the gslv and puts 20 satellites in space which is not boring it is great achievement it is really a piece of important interesting fact but if there is a corollary to it which says that you know something happened and there is a mix of Truth and fiction and there is a targeted at a person or targeted at an institution we have studied and seen that it travels 10 to 20 times faster and reaches an audience similarly that is much worse than the the audience for a piece of actual fact so misinformation and disinformation


a piece of actual fact so misinformation and disinformation for several years governments just sort of brushed it off and said look it's a group of people sort of slugging it out ideologies are slugging it out on the internet why should we intervene why should we interfere but over the last few years in particular and the Twitter files uh proves it that the power of these platforms can be misused and abused to weaponize misinformation weaponize in one particular direction either an ideological direction or in the direction of a particular person or direction of a particular Community or direction of against a particular state or a government or whatever and that in my opinion is an unacceptable phenomenon and unacceptable to what the internet should be and that is why prime minister Narendra modi's government has repeatedly said our boundary condition our principles around the future of the internet ought to be that the internet is open it is safe and trusted because we are the largest internet nation in the world right we will have


largest internet nation in the world right we will have 1.2 1.3 billion Indians connected we have 800 million Indians connected to the inter today women elderly youngster students so for us keeping the internet safe keeping the internet as a trusted place of information is absolutely a duty for the government because I we can't have a 12 year old or a 14 year old using the internet for Education suddenly being pummeled by misinformation or disinformation and he being sort of gaslighted doxed whatever into believing things that are not necessarily true so it is very important for us that the internet evolve into being a safe and trusted place and therefore this debate on how do we deal with disinformation and misinformation and I call it weaponization because it is not innocent it is not simply somebody getting the one plus one uh mathematic wrong and saying oh I think it is three it is one plus one means something because it it is to undermine somebody it is to create harm mental uh Agony or indeed


is to create harm mental uh Agony or indeed something more uh on somebody or some institution or or a particular process like an electoral process yeah it could be Insidious as was shown with uh yeah so the computer files is is remarkable because a lot of us guessed it a lot of us surmise that such a platform without Fitters can cause harm but it turns out that they were not only doing it there was a group of people that were misusing the power without any oversight without any law holding them to account and therefore we say the internet must grow the internet must be accessible by every Indian citizen but we owe it to the Indian citizen that the internet is open safe and trusted and that every platform is accountable to all its users so these are in a sense the principles around which we are building our policies rules and how we view the internet and its participants you know you were talking about uh about how Indian youth men women anybody can fall prey to this because we probably