many people are volunteering doing what they're doing especially young people if you come to the Yoga Center many of them are with me for over 25 30 years they came when they were 18 20 like this today they're just entering their 40s or 50s in that state they are why is it means it's just this that the seed of life is always being suppressed by the social norms and education everything is trying to like you saying see you're saying this not by yourself you somewhere believe it's only the fear of something which will make you be right fear of death fear of Hell fear of punishment right from kindergarten with the stick and cane and whatever nonsense fear of punishment fear of pain fear of suffering is the only way you can be fixed the the whole term God-fearing that's what you fear everything and naturally you fear God also so if you fear everything you're a miserable human being because fear is not a very exuberant wonderful emotion so what would


a very exuberant wonderful emotion so what would you replace it with celebration joy happiness peace what no it's not like that see life is not a philosophy life is a phenomenon you can either write it or you can be crushed by it if you're crushed by it you will live in fear and suffering if you learn to write it so you have seen uh it's a motorcycle metaphor all over again of course I'd expect you to say yeah no no you see you're being chat GPT now okay you've seen Wave Riders hmm are they just riding huge waves what is a wave Rider's dream he wants to ride a tsunami all right yeah he could kill him but no no if he's good at it he wants to ride a tsunami because that's the dream the biggest wave possible you want to write that because you're good at it if you're not good at it even a tiny little wave will cause fear to you so now I am not talking about being good at


so now I am not talking about being good at something you're as good a life as anybody else as much a life as anybody else doesn't matter you don't know journalism you don't know motorcycling you don't know wave riding it doesn't matter but if you sit here you're as good a life as anything but that's not how human beings are experiencing this is the only thing I do to people that experientially they realize that they are as good a life or as anything can be maybe they're good at nothing in the world it doesn't matter there as a life they're good enough once people experience this there is a certain exuberance to life you may not know how to do things that other people do when it comes to skills we are not the same people when it comes to intelligence we are not the same people when it comes to language we are not the same people in any act that we perform we are never the two people are never the same isn't it but as far as


never the same isn't it but as far as life is concerned there is no such thing as your life and my life see you're sitting there that's your body this is my body till we are buried all right once we're buried we are all the same soil let's not go there we will right now about the soil I know you're going to get there we will we will keep the distinction that's your body this is my body that's your mind this is my mind here and there my mind your mind May overlap and we may be okay but still that is your mind this is my master but there is no such thing as your life and my life it's just like if you and me sit here and blow so bubbles that's my bubble this your bubble if it goes poop then you don't say this is my air this is your air this is the nature of life once people experience this there is a certain Beauty to your existence because you are not you are not separate from anything


because you are not you are not separate from anything it's not a philosophy it is not something that you teach them you not a toolkit you give them tools to experience that once they experience that they want that because that's the only thing we have tell me what else you have other than your life rest is all imagination only thing that you have is life isn't it when did you get this realization like most people would think that oh you that's what I was about to tell you my problems but you said no no please do I need to know this after all these things then I you know I rode across and uh they stopped me at Nepal border when I went on my motorcycle I was just uh did you look like this with the beard no no maybe on writing I won't have shaved for five days ten days okay that's about it you were not sad Guru at this time no no no okay even now within myself I am just me people call me according to their experience so


just me people call me according to their experience so who stopped you at the border uh the authorities they stopped me and they asked for a passport I was nearly 20. I did not know what is a passport today children will laugh at me I really did not know what's a passport because I've been riding since I am 12 the moment I became 18 I got my driving license I thought this is it I'm going everywhere in the world I want to just ride away so they stopped me in this passport I said what is that I didn't know then I came home and looked up what is a passport and first thing is I got my passport because I want to right away then I realized I need money then I started some businesses one after another everything became successful when everything that you're doing is successful you start thinking the world is going around you not around the Sun you know so I'm in that state of cocky confidence with everything I do is successful everybody's clapping their hands and everybody says


successful everybody's clapping their hands and everybody says oh is this that this you know in the family when you're successful at a very young age everybody thinks you are some super nonsense I'm not talking about money like today they're talking two months they talk of 10 billion dollars 100 billion dollars not that kind yeah but with those days in a small town it is successful right or that kind of success so I am already into half a dozen Enterprises all working well and things happening one afternoon I just had a little bit of a break I'm working from morning five o'clock to eleven o'clock in the night non-stop because I have so many things to do [Music] and the best part of this work is I need to go from here to there there to there so zipping around on my motorcycle and doing all this all kinds of crazy Enterprises I did everything worked fortunately so this afternoon I just had about an hour and a half break in Mysore City this is the culture that


break in Mysore City this is the culture that for those days at least if we want to test our motorcycles we go up charmandy hill if you want to party we go up challenge if we fall in love we go if we fall out we have to go to chamundi health okay if you have nothing to do we go to chamundi so I had nothing to do unthinking I didn't think of going there simply I wrote and I ended up in chamundi so I know this feel very well I've camped there I've spent days and nights in Germany Hill I know every Rock everything so this is one of those rocks which is west facing of the Charmander Hill I parked my motorcycle went up and sat is around 3 15 3 30 in the afternoon like any other day I just went and sat my eyes were still open after some time I didn't know what happened for the first time till then I knew this is me this is you know that's somebody else I have


this is you know that's somebody else I have no problem with somebody else but this is me that somebody suddenly I did not know which is me which is not me what was me was just all over the place I thought this lasted for 10-15 minutes when I came back to my normal senses about four and a half hours had passed well the first time in my adult life from the age of eight I remember I had not shared a single tier I'm like this I am a close fist always never because I know such need emotional needs to cry and do this and that no matter what happened to me here I am four and a half hours tears are flowing my shirt is all wet and every cell in my body is just wet with ecstasy it's like that it's dripping then I shake my skeptical head and ask what's happening to me only thing that my logic can tell me is maybe I'm going off my rocker and I asked my closest friends you know something is


and I asked my closest friends you know something is happening to me if I close my eyes I'm just blown away like come on what did you pop you found mushrooms in Geometry Hill what happened this that is the kind of inquiry of course now yeah most people would think that right so because I had no context anywhere around me to tell me what's happening to me nobody to tell me what's happening to me all I knew is I have hit a gold mine I don't want to lose it that much I know but I don't know what it is so I experimented this what is this then I discovered this is so simple if I can take my hands off my psychological process my thought and my emotion if I take my hands off that every cell in the body just gets blissed out like it's like head to toe you know recently I was 25 at that time about a few years ago maybe four or six years ago probably one German doctor wanted to do some crazy


ago probably one German doctor wanted to do some crazy study on me and then he said your cellular age is 25. I was surprised how is he saying this so in a way it is true because I kind of stopped there I kind of stopped it I hit the ceiling there and my cellular Edge is still 25 I would say so you will you feel physically you stopped Aging in that process but it wasn't a miracle uh sad guruji see this is what this is why I'm saying it's a logical question I would ask I'm not asking what did you asking see this rose flower became so beautiful and fragrant not because somebody put perfume at the roots they put filth all right yes or no see the filth became so beautiful and fragrant is this magic of nature I would think you'd call it whatever is it magic no it's not it's not applied Magic it's a process what did you have for lunch soup whatever soup it is I want question all right you eat doll soup


is I want question all right you eat doll soup South Indian person eating Dal soup [Laughter] anyway you drink soup and it becomes a woman like you is this magic no why is it not it's not something that was done see it is done you eat a chapati and you become a wonderful woman is it magic no why is it not uh Magic would be something that would that would be out of the ordinary I would feel is it is it ordinary if I take a chapati in my hand and make a human being out of it is that magic yes but if you do it in your stomach it's not magic no because that's the biological process no see that is an explanation but is it not magical uh yeah magic of nature as I said before that that's how you're dismissive when you say magic of nature you don't have to eat human flesh to become a human being you can eat Dal you can eat chapati you can eat whatever nonsense you want and still become a human being


nonsense you want and still become a human being isn't it in a matter of few hours is that not magical tell me one thing that's not magical in the existence yeah I get that but many people go to yogis and uh waiting for that magic yes I'll come to that that is because they have not seen the magic of life they don't have the attention to see the magic of life if you pay attention there is nothing here which is not magical so anyway let me tell you about that day and six six to eight weeks passed and I realized this is all it is if I can keep my hands off my psychological process I will burst into blissfulness then I thought who wouldn't want it yeah who wouldn't want to Simply Be blissed out because there is enough scientific evidence today to show when your experience of life is very pleasant your intelligence your physiology everything that you have works at its best there's no question about that there's no question about that anymore because it's all


no question about that anymore because it's all established today in the lab because everything has to come from the lab today it's come from the lab well established we ourselves have a research center in the Harvard Medical School in the Beth Israel Hospital where it is a sadhguru center of a conscious Planet whatever we're doing that top scientists are working and they're all saying the same things we've always been saying from our experience now they're speaking a little different language complicated language about simple things so once I realized this I sat down I was 25 and I sat down and planned at that time the world's population was 5.6 billion people I said in two and a half years I sat down and made a detailed plan in two and a half years I will make the whole world blissful here I am 40 years this year is 40 years okay 1982. this is 2023 all right 40 years it is well people say we've touched over 2 billion people whatever but that's not my idea of


billion people whatever but that's not my idea of humanity so I'm telling you my problems I will die as a failure I know that but I am a blissful failure [Laughter] is full failure I wonder what that makes the rest of us if that's what you're saying I will come back to that question which I asked you that you know most people think like in fact Yogi Aditya there's also criticized for this reason that why you doing why you getting involved with politics and all you should be disconnected from highest things about yoga was in a way in recent times when I said it isn't that in India recent means five six thousand years in recent times was by Krishna is the ultimate politician and King maker all right so this idea ayogi means must sit in a cave and if he comes out his yoga will fall off that is not a very good yoga people ask me oh why are you dressed like this why do you drive this why do you fly helicopter why


do you drive this why do you fly helicopter why do you do this why do you do that okay I can do anything my spirituality is not so fragile that I have to protect myself in a cave I can be anywhere I can live in a Marketplace and still remain the same doesn't matter what kind of company I am in uh you know I'm part of the New York Fashion Week yes yes I know that's what I was asking I'm saying the texture of my clothing will not take away my spirituality I am not that fragile you were at the Nita Ambani uh Cultural Center yes there too we saw you walk the red carpet I think satguruji and in fact they put a carpet was red what can I do okay if it blew also I would walk golfing and you know so naturally something today I inaugurated the G20 golf tournament yeah let me tell you this Sports is important for you right see if you don't know how to play play means this play cannot


don't know how to play play means this play cannot see you can worship without involvement you can get married without involvement you can bear children without involvement but you can't hit a ball without involvement a ball won't listen to your nonsense whatever you fool yourself with game is such that you cannot play without absolute involvement I think I'm paraphrasing I may not be getting the right words I think it's Swami Vivekananda who said this that you are closer to the Divine in kicking a ball than in your prayer something like this into that extra that to that meaning he said something in those terms because it's true you can do you can learn the Mantra and go on saying it thinking about 100 other things but you can't if you think about hundred other things the ball won't go where you want it to go that's a good thing about a ball yeah when you hit in the concentration yes without involvement without involvement it will not happen this is the fundamental without


it will not happen this is the fundamental without involvement you will go without knowing nothing about life when you went to these places like the Fashion Place and you went to the Ambani Center you play golf with people some people think that you know that you're close to very powerful people that very uh successful rich people are around you and that's how it you become a magnet for Successful People is that true see why would I come to Delhi and go to the slums in Delhi seventy percent of our work is in rural India rural India is Islam I want you to know 70 of the work is in rural India people who come to me over 70 to 80 percent are all rural people when I come to Delhi of course I want to meet people who matter who are either in positions of responsibility or something otherwise how do you do work so their problem is their attention is only on them see they people I'm I'm not trying to be commenting on any particular profession but journalists particularly


be commenting on any particular profession but journalists particularly they come to The Yoga Center one film star or one Minister somebody is there their focus is only that there are other thirty thousand forty thousand other people your cameras never caught them you never paid attention the problem is with you but you think I have a problem I have no problem with the celebrity I work with I work in the prisons I work with rural people I work with tribal women I work with anybody because my work is with human beings what the hell they think of themselves is not my business my business is human beings whoever they are whom do you connect with easier uh rural folk or complicated city Folk Rich folk who has more more existential problems in you and not just that is it Indian American because you spend a lot of time in America what about that like in the west coast do you feel that they take like I know one answer you gave it they go round and round and round to come


it they go round and round and round to come to telling what their problem is whereas in India Patak say they tell like that what their issue is so whom do you connect with more I even connect with the grasshopper as I connect with them the love the most loud one in my life it's it's not any different for me because see this is this is the whole thing via misunderstanding the involvement of life to relationships see now if I spend 10 days in your home and talk to you we may develop a relationship Bond right but when you sit here in front of me not because of who you are because you're sitting in front of me if you ask me who's the most important person in your life I'll say it's you yeah this is this is not because of anything because this is how my attention is this is how my involvement is this moment whatever is there whether it's a flower or a grasshopper or a human being my involvement is absolute about the question is this question of


is absolute about the question is this question of if you are a yogi you must be in a certain way why are you doing all these things let me tell you because Buddha purnim is coming let me honor him with for this when Gautama was traveling during the monsoon times they would stay along with him there are hundreds of monks everybody needs to be accommodated somewhere everybody goes and stays in different homes even now we try we do like this our full-time volunteers are all supported by part-time volunteers eight ten volunteers take care of full-time volunteer their clothing their travel their food everything is taken care of that's how we see we do work so they were also doing that a few thousand years ago but they were doing the same thing how else to do work so Monsoon time they can't be traveling because they're traveling by foot they stayed in one town so one lady came to Gautama she's a local courtesan or to put it simply she's a prostitute and


or to put it simply she's a prostitute and she comes and says I heard that your monks are looking for residences why don't you send some monks to me and everybody had gone one or two were left Ananda tirtha was left and she looked at why doesn't he come he's a tall handsome monk she said why doesn't he come and stay with me Gautama said by all means Ananda can stay with you so he told Ananda please go stay with the lady so she went to the prostitute's house or the whole town went a GOG oh my God he sent a monk to a prostitute's house what's happened so when he went there the lady brought nice silk clothing and said suppose you were wearing very rough clothing let me wash it you wear this so here were silk robes and he sat there she played music she danced for him he paid absolute attention and watched her people said see she's singing music then what will happen next what will


singing music then what will happen next what will happen then imagine everything then after the monsoon was over after a few weeks the Ananda came back to Gautama along with a nun she turned into a nun so when people were questioning him he said this he said see I am walking this path because I see this as the most powerful way to live but you're telling me her ways are more powerful than mine if it is so I will also join her I'm like that if I find something more powerful than the way I'm existing right now I will join that what is your existence right now you lead very busy lives you're constantly traveling and you want to you want to touch people's lives and bring that blissfulness that you experienced into as many lives on people that's all but what is that secret sauce that attracts Millions to Isha Foundation what is that you feel in you see look I'm sure you must be thinking what do I do what is it that I do which


do I do what is it that I do which the other people don't do don't you think that I do life they do mental circus I do lie I've got my headline I'll just do life nothing else so you don't think that there's anything which is Mystical and magical that you do I mean of course you have an issue with the whole term magical no no I'm I have no issue with that I'm only saying see one thing see magic means what now if I put my hand into my pocket and pull out a pigeon this is Magic yeah that's what people would think mostly right but if I would not think back to that vibhuti and chains if I pull out a pigeon and give it to you you have a bird and I have a shitty pocket that's that's all it is what do you do with that magic now I can show you a different magic if you come to the Yoga Center I'll show you people who've been there for many years in the last 10


who've been there for many years in the last 10 years they have not had a moment of angst moment of anger moment of frustration moment of anything they're simply there not simply sitting somewhere in a cave actively working with all sorts of people and still don't experience that this is the magic that the world needs and that's the magic I'm trying to weave when you're attached to family when you're attached to your children your aging parents your your spouse who might why only those five six people why not to me yes but you're born into those uh relationships right to get you know your husband was not born with you your children were not born Society gave that yes correct so when you're when you you know I'm asking okay why are you attached only to five things why are you not attached to the whole universe what's stopping you but that would mean disconnecting with those right what it's not so right now as I said earlier now I'm looking at you you are the most important life in


looking at you you are the most important life in my life right now if I think no no my daughter is more important than you my friend is more important than you why right now you are the most important person because you are here with me because this is life now I'm thinking of my daughter this is my psychological memory right when she's there she's there that's a different matter so you are giving more significance to your memory than your experience lots of people say that one meal a day everybody wants to know from you of course that how you're so fit and uh is it one meal a day which everybody the the mythology around you the myths around you is that one meal a day he eats only nuts he's very careful diet not a lot I eat whatever I feel like eating I'm not careful about diet I'm not careful about anything I'm somebody who lives like I could die today always so I'm not by rule one one meal a day but generally I find for the type


meal a day but generally I find for the type of work that I do if I'm it's a busy day at The Yoga Center means I don't feel like eating in the morning so I eat somewhere between four to six in the evening I eat a full when I sit down at the table I don't like to measure and eat I eat what I like to eat proper South Indian meal properly I eat so once you eat rice and sambar mostly five days six days in a week at least five days in a week we eat millets two days we meet rise or chapati or something but and vegetables yes organically grown I'm guessing uh it's from the local Marketplace semi-organic we are not growing anything because we wanted to support the farmers around us okay so we contract them rather than we growing it ourselves uh recently you know um the Delhi chief minister made this comment uh when he said uh that you know the prime ministers people tell me that he sleeps only three hours in a


tell me that he sleeps only three hours in a day and that's why he's so grumpy all the time because he sleeps so less he needs to sleep a little more so uh what is so what is uh what is Yoga tell us how much uh is there a rule that you need to sleep this much see we must understand sleep means it's the downtime for the body it's the maintenance time suppose uh you have a car which needs one day of Maintenance in 30 days it's all right but suppose it needs 10 days of Maintenance in 30 days better get onto the bus isn't it so right now doctors have been saying others have been saying You must sleep for eight hours a day otherwise your heart will this will go happen that will happen eight hours a day means you're sleeping away one third of your life 24 hours 8 hours you're sleeping one third another two hours could be going in other kind of Maintenance of eating bathroom this that whatever because all these things are needed bodily


that whatever because all these things are needed bodily processes are a must we can't be without it so if 8 to 10 12 hours are going in maintenance when are you going to live freely it's not efficient way of living so don't fix times like that see how to make body more efficient more energetic more effervescent naturally the need for food see right now there was an ambassador because I'm not making a comment about any brand but because that brand doesn't exist I think we can I like how you go into automobile metaphors all the time because fuel we're talking not sure you were driving an ambassador car if you put one liter if it ran for three to four kilometers it was great if you press the throttle in two kilometers one liter got ran away because half of it would be leaking out also so many things today you have more efficient cars bigger cars faster cars which will run 10 12 kilometers for the same liter some of them over 30 kilometers with the same liter the


of them over 30 kilometers with the same liter the hybrid one is running 45 kilometers for the same liter what is this upgradation of technology and better maintenance when I say better maintenance less friction in the whole machinery so you you may think this is me but actually this is a biological machine isn't it if you take away all the friction Within both food and sleep the need will come down it consumes less fuel it needs less downtime this is something you must do if you're interested in living because if you're sleeping people say I enjoy sleep nobody can enjoy sleep because you're not there you enjoy the restfulness why are you not restful when you're sitting here You're simply revving at a high RPM for no reason and then you want to lie down and sleep because the body is tired tired yeah so it is not something that you prescribe you work towards making the body very effervescent and Alive what kind of fuel would do that how much fuel would do that then naturally


do that how much fuel would do that then naturally sleep arranges itself I never fix how much I'm asleep I've never woken up to an alarm my my girl just laughs at me you don't know how to set an alarm on the phone I said I don't need it do you have a phone yes I have a phone what do you do mostly with the phone making calls it's my office it's your face I don't go to any office I handle everything on the phone today give such a social media sensation on YouTube on Facebook on Instagram do you check your what do people see what do people ask what do people comment about you I may not be able to see comments much uh here and there maybe just to have a feel of it like but everybody why do they like my sambar [Laughter] that's what I said there is a certain Fascination about food probably because good home food is disappearing so fast yeah that people think it's something exotic that somebody can make sambar just in a


exotic that somebody can make sambar just in a camper I'm making somebody in a camper that I am driving during the virus time yeah did you do that I wanted to ask you when you traveled for Save the soil when you you went on your motorbike across the world uh what was it about you know food that you did American food uh you know you went to Egypt and you went to all those places Drive riding in the uh desert and all that what did you do for food there was a team organizing food ahead of time for the whole because there was nearly a team of uh 27 to 30 people uh photographers videographers and setting up see because we were not just riding in these hundred days I said 691 events yeah that's phenomenal yeah those events organizing those events there were people traveling with me or ahead of me most of the time so they would have food ready at a certain place it didn't always come on time but I'm okay with food I'm not uh I'm


but I'm okay with food I'm not uh I'm not like I must eat at a given time I'm okay wouldn't sleep never came to me what about controversies do they bother you uh see the thing is I made myself like this that somebody else will never determine how I am somebody else or something else never determines how I am Within Myself so if it if the controversy supports the work I don't mind the controversy if it's impeding the work of course we would like to relieve that like for Isha Foundation comes under criticism many times that you've taken always what do you mean many times okay always and then those who uh those who do not succeed in bringing you down legally they say that the reason is because sadhguruji is connected so well with powers that be that's why it powers that be you can inquiry or a journalist have I ever gone to any chief minister or prime minister ever asking something for myself ever have I taken one rupee from any government


ever have I taken one rupee from any government have I taken an inch of land from any government no if I go to meet them I go there only to contribute to what they are doing if I have an idea if I think a certain law should happen to facilitate something only that I've never gone to any politician any powers that be including God asking for something I have never prayed in my life ever you've never prayed no really but doesn't don't you feel hurt or dejected at times why no that's why I said nobody else decides what happens Within Me the satguru need a guru ever I had when I needed very long time ago and uh that's a different dimension altogether people are right now there are troll armies which doesn't like the word Dimension so whenever I say Dimension I say Dimension Dimension dimension for their benefit so I'm saying whatever negativities people do the problem with them is they want to make a living so they know that if they use somebody's name


so they know that if they use somebody's name they can make a living they are doing that I'm okay if they make a living but if they impede the work then of course we act to see how to relieve those things but till now whatever they have said have they produced one iota of proof one one little thing no this is not exaggeration of what we are doing this is just total imagination of what it is so any number of times openly I have challenged you're talking about thousands of Acres of forest I said one inch Forest land tribal land private land government Land one inch anywhere if there's an encroachment I'll leave the country I'll withdraw from all the social media thing you will never hear of me again I'm done if one inch if you show me I invite them please come stay at our expense go ahead and find out they won't come why because they make a living like this it's very unfortunate way to live but unfortunately they're making a living like that right a


unfortunately they're making a living like that right a person like me or any of my colleagues they'll come to you and ask you questions like how should I be happy how should I get rid of tensions how can I sleep what should I eat these are the kind of questions that most of us would come up with when rich people come to you what do they say when can I make my first billion second billion what do powerful people say when can I become Prime Minister do they come and ask you these kind of questions uh not exactly see you're thinking see a lot of people think you are very rich and Powerful somebody who has nothing looking at you they're thinking that you are very rich and Powerful so who is Rich and Powerful to you may not be rich and Powerful to somebody else so for me nobody is Rich and Powerful if they have a problem how are they powerful ah I don't have any problem so you can say I'm powerful not power over somebody I have complete


I'm powerful not power over somebody I have complete power over my life and that's all that matters I have no power over anybody else but this is all that people want that they want to be power over their own life they don't understand that and they think by conquering something they're procuring something acquiring something it'll happen let me tell you this just before I started safe soil uh moment I was in the United States that's when this Rogan thing and all happened I was campaigning for the uh also yes yes and a few others some of them did negative hit jobs on me it's okay uh so at that time I was meeting people and one day I see one young man behaving like his tail is on fire I said hey what are you up to he said Guru I want to make one billion dollars one billion dollars oh that's all you come tomorrow morning I'll give you a billion dollars really you'll give me a billion dollars I said yes tomorrow you come


a billion dollars I said yes tomorrow you come I'll give you a billion dollars he had come with eight of his friends they were all sitting quietly I said see these eight guys were sitting quietly I'll give each one of them 10 billion dollars Guru you're giving them 10 only one for me I said you idiot just now you wanted only one the moment they get 10 you're miserable about the one so unfortunately people have made themselves like this they only enjoy what others don't have this is the fundamental mistake about life you don't enjoy what you have you enjoy what others don't have this is a sickness you think it's Joy it is not joy joy is a natural exuberance of life so whether you are a politician or a convict or a journalist or a man woman whatever the hell you are you think you're all that but essentially you're a life either constipated or blossoming to you for advice do many people think that you can see the future


do many people think that you can see the future people try these days they've given up because I know they know by now that if they ask such questions where I will take them they become gtps you know they're predicting what I may say so the important thing the important thing about my life is not about predicting your future about empowering you to create your future this is the most important aspect of this culture why the sanatan Dharma is important is here we have no sense of God there is no the god in this country we are a Godless Nation we know the technology of God making but we don't have the God all the people that you worship or people who walk the geography of this land Shiva walk this land Yogi walk this land Krishna walk this land Rama walked this land they had all the troubles are more trouble than you ever face in your life no no we'll come to that you can call them whatever you want essentially they walked in human form on this land yes or


they walked in human form on this land yes or no yes were their lives just magical or full of trouble look at Rama's life it's a it's a serial serial disaster 3. suppose you are a queen of a kingdom at the age of 19 you're coronated and then they take away your kingdom and send you to the forest one disaster like that you wouldn't recover most people yeah tribulations all his life most people wouldn't recover with one disaster lost his kingdom as if that's not good enough lost his wife then he goes out and battles and kills people that he doesn't want to kill and then gets back his wife and again some politics and sends away his pregnant wife to the forest never gets to see his children unknowingly he almost killed his children see if you are me or anybody knowingly or unknowingly we killed our own children in many ways that is the worst thing that you could do correct he almost did it yeah and then he never got to see


did it yeah and then he never got to see his wife she died in the forest so this is not a successful life but the important thing why we worship Him is no matter what happened he remained the same no angst no hatred no nothing he even did Penance for killing ravana okay because this is what this is the only thing that we value in this culture is freedom Liberation mukti when you're alive if you're free from everything you are not withdrawn you're active but free that is only one Avatar of Vishnu where this happened in the others uh in the other avatars it was it wasn't that it wasn't uh see what you call as Avatar is Darwin's theory of evolution this was not spoken recently this was spoken they say hello welcome trolls himself is supposed to have spoken this correct yes the first life see what are the authors tell me no no don't go there one at a time what does it mean water life yeah life waterborne life there was a time


water life yeah life waterborne life there was a time when hardly 10 percent or five percent of the land was land rest was all water so first life was naturally waterborne what is next kurma okay so what does it mean amphibious life crawled out of the water half on land often this learning to live on land that's what amphibious life means next is among the many creatures smaller creatures they're ignoring and coming to mammals the first mammal or the grossest mammal he's a pig or a wild boar why I am saying it's grossest is even today at least the ladies will say this if a man is very crude like a pig yes so something very basic means Pig so the most basic mammal is a pig very rooted in its body very hard to kill a pig people don't understand this it's not like killing a deer or a goat or something very hard to kill a pig it takes a lot to kill the pigs because they're so rooted in


to kill the pigs because they're so rooted in their physicality if somebody is very physical you say he's like a pig so the next thing is half man half animal next thing is what Ramana dwarf to man next thing is what parasharama full-fledged man but volatile volatile next is what Rama peaceful man next is what Krishna a loving man next is supposed to be a Buddha a meditative man the next one is supposed to be a mystical man don't look at them as individual people these are different stages of evolution just look at Darwin's theory of evolution it is parallel to this in many ways he might have gone at it with a different context so sanatan Dharma has an explanation or a a sanatan view of life has has explanations for Life Evolution we're talking about Evolution see there are places in our Vedas where they're talking about single-celled animals okay we're talking about Evolution because we are a dialectical culture we don't do anything in a way


dialectical culture we don't do anything in a way that it doesn't touch your life we write our history that way we sign right our science that way because if it's not going to touch and transform your life what is the point of any science or history so this also is said in such a way that we are making it an embodiment of that stage of development and saying it is this person this person it is not about people it is about different levels of evolution that happened so next one is supposed to be mystical right now even your technology is becoming almost mystical isn't it hmm right now unable to understand I'm saying if a machine gets up and suppose you are a robo I don't know it could be or I could be why you if somebody builds a machine just like me and talks like me chat GTP is answering all your questions and you don't know I finished the podcast and went home and you don't know it can easily be done yeah we


don't know it can easily be done yeah we are not very close to that see almost 20 years ago Mr Honda the Japanese the Honda company chairperson said by 2050 we will produce 11 member football team and they will win the World Cup and they're not far from that they can win the World Cup because you can make every player a Lionel Messi or the best in the in those different spots of the game so is this not mystical it's manifesting also in a way isn't it it's it's mystical we're getting there see we are always trying to separate this and that life is not in separation life is in unity always this uh you know the current prime ministers has given this thing that India is on the way to becoming a vishwa guru there are many people who are skeptical about these kind of things that this is too much we can't resolve our own problem of giving water to every home you know public toilets we can't these basic things we can't do so


we can't these basic things we can't do so what is this vishwa Guru take is he is he also doing this kind of thing that which you said about Mr Honda which is you know manifested that once you have a goal you achieve that do you think that there's a similarity see yeah how India was viewed just 20 years ago and how it is viewed by the world today the people who are skeptical should go out in the world and see how Indian means nobody even paid attention to you today Indians wow you're from India they say 70 70 Fortune 500 companies have Indian CEOs most of the ivy league universities have Indian you know Deans and things like that it's not small because we took a historical beating in terms of invasions we lost so many things the continuity of our culture was lost the continuity of knowledge was lost everything was destroyed today they are slowly certain you know unpredulised historians and scientists are looking at it and saying almost everything that you call as


at it and saying almost everything that you call as science that came from Europe the fundamentals came from India the mathematics came from India all right even the most simple thing that everybody study what is this this theorems that you study in high school they all were here well before the Europeans did that they traveled here they took it they dropped our this thing and produced it in their own languages and said we found it but our problem has always been this we never put ourselves out well our our problem is we don't have a packaging industry we have products we don't have packaging but now we are learning to package it well but at the same time just 250 years ago we were 30 of the world's export that means we must be packaging it well also it's been destroyed systematically destroyed all right it's not just didn't get destroyed ad hoc systematically destroyed by somebody who had a different intent Finance happened it's there's no point being bitter about it because bitterness will not kill them


bitter about it because bitterness will not kill them it will only kill us sure all right so today it's on an up search it is a land of so many complexities that's our strength that's our problem do we have the brains and the patients to handle the complexity and take it somewhere or will we get tangled up in our own complexity this is a important thing for this you need a leadership which is visionary which has the necessary courage which has a necessary ruthlessness to push in One Direction no matter who says what this is needed in this country otherwise this country will not get out of its pits we are a plethora of problems but we are a tremendous possibility today everybody is looking at the possibility of India those who are here commenting about local they're just involved in this local news Mass that's going on they don't understand how the world is looking at us right now the world is looking at as one of the greatest possibilities on the planet and we will be I


possibilities on the planet and we will be I have no doubt about that it is just that if we do this in a planned way in a determined way in a strategic lead because one important thing Indians have been lacking is that we've always been accused of not having strategic thinking for the first time we are showing some sense of strategic thinking we are a nation we are a culture we are a civilization who strategized thousand years later what we will be doing at one time but Albert Einstein when he came to India whatever and you know I've always been telling people he met the wrong Indians he met some people whoever he met I don't know who he met he said Indians can't think 15 million minutes Beyond where they are I said I keep telling people he met the wrong Indians he didn't meet us all right so we have to change that we need to bring strategic thinking we need to go where we want to go not wherever winds push us we need to go where


wherever winds push us we need to go where we want to go I think that determination the younger generation is beginning to show the aspirations are such they want to go where they want to go this is not going to happen just like a dream that is striving there is a whole lot of striving to make this happen only question is will you do it joyfully or miserably that's your choice wonderful and anybody who says that if you uni somebody needs to sleep more uh that's a political ambition I think finally satguruji we talked about where we are going how we are heading 2023 where is satguruji going uh are you going to be in India you travel so much so where do you see home you're such a global person do you see home as in India and are you traveling this year my home is within myself so it goes with me wherever I go oh sometimes I like the food sometimes I don't like but it's like home some sometimes food turns out well


it's like home some sometimes food turns out well sometimes it doesn't are you do have a like like you had saved the soil is there something that you're planning uh the next project yes we are in the process of crafting what is called as conscious Planet movement it's a global movement even safe soil movement did not happen in a Risha Foundation it happened under conscious Planet which is a separate Foundation outside of the Isha Foundation what conscious Planet means you see right now there are many aspects if you I mean I don't want to go into detail considering the time there is only one problem on the planet the human being if you and me are not here what's the problem on this planet there's no problem on this planet everything is fine isn't it right now everything is a problem every natural color a natural process natural happening that happens we call it a Calamity if an earthquake happens we die if a flood comes we die if anything happens if a spectacular volcano blows we


anything happens if a spectacular volcano blows we will die everything is a Calamity in our understanding these are all natural happenings which have always been happening for millions of years so this is become like this because of the way we have constructed our own lives in a compulsive manner our own intelligence has become the most serious problem right now people are talking about mental health pandemic I know this will get me heavy Trolls but I must say this to them if you do not understand your physical and mental health is your responsibility the chances of you being physically mentally healthy becomes more and REM more and more remote as time passes because of variety of reasons soil is very directly connected to your mental health and physical health of course mental health I am saying because that's the most fragile part of who you are and that will go off first physically you're feeling this and that somehow you carry on you don't think you're ill something is simple for most people all their


you're ill something is simple for most people all their faculties are not fully functional all right but they carry on thinking this is how it is but the moment the mental fact faculties don't work you create you get clearly crippled so that is beginning to happen the recent CDC stats say in America one in every three teenage girls are depressed when we are growing up a teenage girl means she will giggle for nothing there's no way to get her depressed Joy was there simply exuberant because that's the nature of life when it's blossoming in a certain way even a little donkey you see when it's at a certain age it simply jumps around for Joy of life not for anything that happened to it simply for the joy of life look at a puppy how it jumps around the same with human beings also so adolescence is a time when your physicality and everything is blossoming people are just giggly and bubbly but today they're depressed one in three this is


but today they're depressed one in three this is dangerous this is a dangerous proportion one in three is depressed means one-third of the population you you don't have enough psychiatrists to deal with that kind of stuff there is no way you can do it you don't have that much Furniture first of all true true so what is it see if you can conduct your thought process consciously would you ever go mentally off no if you can conduct your emotions consciously would you go ever go off no so what is missing is consciousness but what we're looking at is is like this suppose this room is dark and I say Smitha get this damn Darkness out and you start pushing it kicking it whatever will it go turn on the light and it's gone yeah so for compulsive Behavior within ourselves the only and only solution is consciousness so this conscious plant movement we're trying to build technology platforms to Proctor people that our aim is two to three billion people should have a minimum of 12 to 15 minutes


people should have a minimum of 12 to 15 minutes of practice that they will do and we will monitor them for at least one year minimum that they are actually doing it we want to find sponsors to give them rewards if somebody is working on their inner well-being let's say you did some sadhana for six months and you feel wonderful if you feel wonderful all the people who work with you they'll feel wonderful your family feels wonderful the world will become wonderful this is the only way yes without individual transformation there is no Global or Universal transformation there is simply no such thing but this is the important thing that human beings should become little more conscious so as a part of this we are launching this in 2024 right now Preparatory work is going on because we were depending on cryptocurrency thinking we'll give crypto rewards for people you do that's not working no not now it's working it's gone gone at one time it was going so we thought if you do 90 days of practice


so we thought if you do 90 days of practice we'll do one coin which will be valuable in the marketplace so you are not paying for your uh you know getting the sadhana we are paying you for you to do the sadhana because you doing sadhana you're improving the world in many ways your workplace your home everything improves this is the only way the world improves so now we are looking at sponsors and other things to find a ways to sponsor people that you are doing your sadhana you are well we will monitor you there are ways medically we can monitor you how your blood pressure is how you're feeling everything if you're like that we reward you for that for your health and well-being we are going to reward you with doctors inside all digitally simple see today you have uh like wristbands which will tell you what is your pulse rate correct what is your blood pressure what is your sugar they're able to kind of maybe not exactly but they're able to do this so


not exactly but they're able to do this so with that kind of instrumentation with phones phone is the main instrument through that we want to monitor still this work is going on okay it is still technology needs to be built up but basic technology is there we are not inventing anything we have to innovate a little bit to make that happen right so creating a conscious planet is the most important thing at least two to three billion people if they are willing to spend 12 to 15 minutes within themselves and improve themselves it's a better world and it's the only world we have right so we have to work that's all we have right thank you so much for speaking with us very much and it's been an Illuminating conversation and will get us all thinking a lot about it thank you so much thank you for listening into this very special broadcast do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste click here to watch the previous episodes foreign [Music]


it's better to be known by your failures in my profession than to be known by your successes every intelligence agency's nightmare is that there is a mole how many of us know that in Cargill the BSF was Banning the Heights and not the Army Mr Muradi Desai he told the Allah we know about kahuta we get handed over the tape Musharraf talking to generals Aziz Khan the Pakistan Army finds Kashmir as a useful tool to retain Supremacy in Pakistan 2006 Bombay bomb lost we did nothing 2008 that horror of Mumbai we did nothing you know we've never ever retaliated in the manner that we should have the message must reach those who take decisions there like balakot would have hurt them because it's the message that is important URI was another message that was important we have the ability to do it and we will do it and we will do it again when this Cargill Review Committee was going on and coming towards the end the senior officer comes


and coming towards the end the senior officer comes to me and says what you're saying is right but you'll have to take the rap they're hilarious movies and it's only see them as a as a comedy it's okay if it is a an operation that you go and suborn that girl it's different but if he does it on his own I'll be shocked if he does that Namaste welcome to another edition of a i podcast with Smitha prakash what is a spy like is an raw officer somewhat like what Salman Khan was in a car tiger or something like Akshay Kumar in baby or is an raw agent somewhat like Alia Bhatt in razi is the Bollywood depiction of R and A W very accurate somewhat accurate or totally different to answer these questions we have in our Studios former Chief of the research and Analysis Wing Mr Vikram sooth who retired as a career intelligence officer in 2003 after 31 years in the rnaw Mr suit is an advisor at The


in the rnaw Mr suit is an advisor at The Observer Research Foundation and has authored two books the unending game a former rnaw Chief's insights into Espionage and the ultimate goal Mr Sue thank you so much for being part of the podcast my team has been wanting to have you on this show for a long time and I'm glad that you found time to come to the studio here in Delhi and talk to us so I will begin with your books and then get to the media stuff after that so uh the unending game uh in this one it was very interesting especially the Kashmir Parts uh for some of the stuff which you don't speak about but you hint and and this one about narratives um the ultimate goal so for viewers listeners uh do buy this book The unending game and the other one is the ultimate goal both are available on the net you can just buy this or in bookshops so tell me Mr suit um how difficult was it to actually you know post retirement to come out


it to actually you know post retirement to come out and write about your life you haven't written so much it's not it's not a personal kind of a story it's more like you know a professional point of view so was it difficult to get down to doing this it was because I was I'm in service you're used to writing short notes right on the higher up you go you have a one page or a page and a half of the PM from there to graduate to writing articles first which I did in the Hindustan times and other papers then I moved on to bigger essays and journals then one day somebody suggested to me I think that why don't you do a book on the basis of all your articles I said no that's not really interesting because those are time-bound things you know their relevance is over three months or four months after I've written so there has to be something more then she said why don't you write a book on intelligence I said I can't write a book on Raw I


I said I can't write a book on Raw I won't be able to do it it's not my belief that I should write but I could I actually gave the idea of the narrative story first I said let's do that then um she said no I don't think we should do a book which is which is based on your Forte on your on your expertise on your knowledge so then I thought of the unending game where I would talk of intelligence as a concept as a profession and and a good profession but not talk about raw really except when it is relevant to to us today chapter or to the topic I've attended a book events uh I've even co-hosted one of the events for the unending game and I attended one of your book events on the ultimate goal I've also heard you speaking in Washington DC at the Heritage Foundation and I've always found that you rarely speak about your years in the Raw you speak about intelligence as a concept like you mentioned in your book too so um is


like you mentioned in your book too so um is that you're training not to talk about your years in the Raw it is it is and I think it's also my personal inclination inclination not to you know you you told not to reveal secrets you told not to brag because it's better to be known by your failures in my profession than to be known by your successes because if we have succeeded in let's say breaking a terrorist ring okay how many TomTom about it now the other side knows that they've broken this uh ring how do they know so they do a back check where do they go wrong and then the chances are they will discover that that was their weakness we don't want them to know that this is how we got it so if you make a mistake people talk about it it's all right we take it on the jaw and move on so I've seen that you know when there is an accusation made about raw when there is something talk about intelligence failure or anything like that


is something talk about intelligence failure or anything like that there's no spokesperson of the raw nobody comes out and says hey we didn't do wrong yes we went wrong here this is misinformation about us nothing like that it just remains this shadowy thing nobody knows about why it's been us custom or our system that don't engage because if you engage then you're going to be having to answer more questions the more you engage naturally there will be cross questioning cross-examining sort of saying that but you know but this happened then and you how do you relate it to this so don't get into a dialogue and let the mystery remain let it remain with a question mark then try and solve it but you know when things like Cargill Review Committee happen when you are expected to give evidence and defend then it's a little different then then you have to say it more or less openly that this is what happened this is not what happened and how many of us know that in kargil


and how many of us know that in kargil the BSF was Banning the heights still 1982 and not the army loc Heights the upper Heights of north of cargillian north of draz in 1992 that system was taken over by the army but they used to pull down their troops in October and send them back in Feb March the BSF stayed there even when the temperature was 65 minus Celsius those days when the equipment wasn't what it is now so it was very strenuous now you have a Pakistan which is fretting after 1971. he is looking for something and Musharraf must have noticed this or others must have noticed it in fact they had prepared a plan and been turned it down he said what if the Indians react what will you do to which musharra didn't have an adequate answer and they shelved it but the resurrected it in 99. this is what general Musharraf or the Pakistani always have done which is go in but no plan further no right yeah so


go in but no plan further no right yeah so it every war that they have fought was that um I mean even if you read musharraf's book it's like that it's this bravado of jumping in and somebody will take care of the mess later it is the sort of self-acclaimed superiority okay you know we have Punjabi Fighters yeah what is this thing about Indians being Banias and so look down upon them but why why should you I think it comes out from the pre-partition days where the money lenders and the shopkeepers were all Hindus mostly and the the Muslim world so they they would in other trades and Agriculture and so on so forth and they he was little money lender the margin and so on so forth so that kind of thing is that you know he's not as good as I am but he's just lucky he's got more money that they're vegetarians and they are Banias this is a this is and therefore they don't have strength strength we have the warrior


they don't have strength strength we have the warrior strength we are the warrior class plus that we are of Arabic descent Arabic and plus the British definition of the Muslim Soldier as the warrior class the military mind so let's come back to Cargill which you were talking about that the BSF didn't deduct and the Army was doing that and that is the loophole that they saw now everybody knows about or some people at least know about how uh when uh kargil happened uh we were caught off guard when uh and it was uh it was the so tell us now why should I say anything you tell us what happened was there intelligence failure I tell you in October 1998 the raw Center report that there is troop movement in that place of a kind that we think they are planning something big we even use the word War a quick War because they had moved troops form peace locations from mangala from gujarawala and I think Lahore up to poke so we assessed that something


Lahore up to poke so we assessed that something is going to happen now you don't know at that stage what is going to happen this is a sort of half yearly assessment that this is what has been happening the past few months and now we are ready we summarize from this that they are planning something this report was not accepted what do you mean not accept this or not just it can't be so who does that is it the I mean political leadership raw is this agency that has supplied the information we make a recommendation that's where it ends that is for the political Masters or the consumers to decide what to do with that information they say it can't be what else can I say six months later we gave another review in in I think April 99 saying that their intentions are aggressive okay during the same period this lasts like eight nine months the northern command had reported a nine-fold increase in the vehicular movement in that area Pakistan movement hmm that again is is a indicator


area Pakistan movement hmm that again is is a indicator it's a battle indicator something was being moved then um to do one kernel so there's military intelligence and raw input before Cargill actually happened yeah before the Pakistani troops there was also IB information there was also IB okay so multiple Agency information went in into the uh so if all this information was going in why did the Lahore bus yatra happen I don't know that is the political decision before doing a yatra of that sort where the Prime Minister takes this bold decision to go he's already got information about from three sources I don't know whether he got it or not what is the chain of command then how does the information go from there to where the the there was a note from the intelligence bureau chief the div I think June 98. of hectic activities in be okay and saying that something is happening now that report was addressed to everybody when the dib or the secretary are rights it goes to the head of the government it


rights it goes to the head of the government it goes to the Prime Minister it goes there was an NSA by then well sort of the PM principal secretary was principal secretary was doubling up as we had the jic then okay joint intelligence committee there the Home Secretary would know yeah cabinet secretary the cabinet secretary would know the home minister would know I should imagine so yes right now all all of them knew that there was some kind tell me at that time also I remember or previously people used to keep saying yeto intelligence report it happened even when the Bombay uh blasted every time they say this that you know they tend to say essay intelligence so there's that attitude of a lackadaisical attitude may be misplaced but it was there that too much of this kind of information coming that happens I mean they can also say the boy who cried wolf and there may be instances of people sending out heartbreak reports maybe but you were very specific you think all these three at


you were very specific you think all these three at the IB Mi and Rew when you do an assessment a six monthly assessment which is personal of at least a brigadier's rank or a director's rank is sending to the government to the Joint intelligence committee he's not going to do it uh you know just for the fun of it okay he would be a considered assessment now it is an assessment for you to accept or reject it is it is never done or never should be done that an intelligence agency acts on its own information so Cargill in a way we had the enemy within our land right uh and then they were thrown out for various reasons what happened post Cargill whether it was the Americans who put pressure on nawashari whether our own soldiers had a success On The Ground by throwing them back but they pushed back let's go before that let's go to operation make doth which was siachen yeah okay right I had uh on the podcast General Kulkarni here and he talked about how uh


Kulkarni here and he talked about how uh Indian troops went and occupied the siachen glacier um at that time uh in the interview he mentions General hoon and he says about how General Hoon uh played that role he went and got the equipment and things and then he also mentioned that you were a station Chief in Srinagar at that time and you gave the Intel also and the Intel came in from Mi and raw that Pakistan was buying winter gear winter gear so tell me about that from Austria from Austria yeah you gave that information at that time and did you suspect that it was to launch an operation you know we had a dental hoon and I had a discussion on this in his uh headquarters and Srinagar Srinagar I remember the Exquisite gave me never mind but you know we had a discussion you know and it's obvious that uh when you buy such equipment there has to be purpose it's not for tourism because priyo prior to that the pakistanis were trying to send tourist


to that the pakistanis were trying to send tourist groups from Pok across cardu and Beyond uh under that Gap trying to find out more intelligence and they also encouraging the belief that all this belongs to them that this area north of the loc is all theirs actually and they want to occupy it so that had to be stopped General Kulkarni called it cartographic aggression that that's what they were doing and the Intel that was provided to the Army at that stage was that this is what they were doing they would slowly like what the Chinese slowly you take it and then you pass the word around so they were doing that they were trying to establish ownership by saying that we are organizing the tours which is all being done by us the Japanese climbers have come and so on so forth so that had to be stopped who had this information did you tell your Chief at that stage of course who was the chief at that stage it was Gary uh Gary saxena okay so tell us about you know I'm


saxena okay so tell us about you know I'm going to come to that part too that you know uh what was it who were the Chiefs who actually like you know you had this rapper with which you unhesitatingly could give your a report and you knew for certain that that report would be believed and it wouldn't just end up in another file who were those Chiefs that you work with that you were most impressed with well actually the iconic figure was Mr Cow legendary Legend there's none who can you know come up to him and he was a first-rate human being in every way I mean he was genuinely what he was we all looked up to him as a as a role model so you were one of those cowboys in a manner of speaking I wasn't recruited directly by him but I was recruited in his in the first flush when they were recruiting from outside the police and outside the direct recruitment we had a direct recruitment in 71 first first batch was 71.


direct recruitment in 71 first first batch was 71. that was because of the war no it was just generally a service of your own so we didn't have an external intelligence Wing before 71. no no we had raw 468 68. but you didn't join then no I I joined in 672. so tell me the gaps 68 to 72 where were you what were you doing 68 66 I joined this government as a postal service provisioner after the upsc exam of 65 and Missouri 66 and then I was posted to Delhi they asked me where do you want to go I should have said something else instead of saying Delhi so they said Maharashtra or somewhere seen the country where I always said no in Delhi so it's okay there's a vacancy so I was my office was in defense Colony I Postal Service office yes the senior student post Offices South Division defense Colony c563 I still remember okay so I was there and um then we started hearing this Whispers of a new organization coming up Ultra secret


this Whispers of a new organization coming up Ultra secret and so on what is this and he said no no it's it's going to be you know really high-flying this that and the other okay so we all um got inquisitive then we heard that you know it's not just police they are taking from outside and you know Mrs G and R and coward decided that they will not make it into a police organization this is Mrs Indira Gandhi just in case our viewers are getting confused okay Indira gandhis and cow decided that the new organization must have multi must multi-social talent and Mr Cow at that stage was what was his he was the head of raw 6080 became head of Rome okay and so 71 we we started this 71 the war happened and after that it picked up steam again so who recruited you or can you speak that or you can't I don't know who recruited me in that sense my dossier was obviously called for by the by the organization and so how


called for by the by the organization and so how does like do people apply for working in the art not now but at that time did you apply for it or did they Scout around and found people some some scouted around and had their name pulled in what was it that they would have found about you that they would um that they would want I just saw they I think they just saw the performance record okay and wanted a new Facebook because I would think that you know you didn't have that which everybody when you became Chief because you were the first non-police officer to become Chief so did that work against you at that stage that you know you came from the Postal Service why would a postal service or was Postal Service just a euphemism for what you were actually doing no it was my first genuine job Postal Service and I had no inclination of this would happen and when I joined I didn't know that I would end up the way I did and I just found the work very exciting


I did and I just found the work very exciting and tell me about your first meeting with Mr Cow you know uh I worked a lot with Mr B Rahman okay he uh I succeeded him Thrice in my career at headquarters when the first desk assignment then as a junior staff officer to the Chief and then as the offset of the organization so I I worked every time it was him and he used to give me little tips he said you're going to meet Mr Cow said yeah what is it now remember one thing don't put your hand on the glass oh on the table on the table he said I said why because you leave fingerprints he doesn't like those oh my God that finicky that but oh but he was such a sweet man he was so wonderful to deal with it sweet man yeah yeah he was a Sharif shock right I mean for the enemy of enemy of course but for his own people he was he was very very protective and okay and I remember um I've seen him once from


okay and I remember um I've seen him once from a distance I was terrified even when I saw him because you know there was so much one had heard about him but he's an amazing man uh I remember in 2001 when we had the um Parliament attack that was December 13. now December 19 is the raising day of the special fronti force explain what is Raising day tomorrow the birthday of the organization okay so they have an evening dinner and that day there was a rumor if you remember that some terrorists had occupied doordarshan IA radio okay really which year 2001 yeah 2001. okay so um I got delayed sorting this out and the founders only a rumor and nothing happened so I went off to the function and as I walked in Mr Carr was standing there was a cow standing there and he said oh I'm so glad you've come now I can go I said sir I'm sorry I'm late but you know this is what happened yes that's fine but I thought


is what happened yes that's fine but I thought I'll wait for you before I leave I said but so it's your old organization you could leave any time he says no young man you are the head I can't leave till you come oh okay this is when you were Chief when I was Chief okay so you are the head I can't live without your permission that sounds like very foggy thing to do well it's it's you know you wanted to encourage some kinds of disciplines in the system also you can't have uh all two palsy and but he was I believe like you very dead pan expression you couldn't really tell when he was angry when he was happy well at least there's not there's not many uh instances of Mr Cow having lost his temper and he may have fixed the other chap differently but they didn't lose his temper and he had a he had a vision he knew what he wanted for the organization and um very private person right he didn't write there were no


very private person right he didn't write there were no interviews of his there are hardly any photographs yeah there's just I've seen photographs in some people's homes like the the award that you people get there's one on your study table that's one of mine with him yeah that's at the same function oh okay so I've seen that and I've seen in somebody's book there's a picture I think nitin go Clay's book there is a picture uh but uh but very very private private person but he had a good wrapper with the prime minister right excellent rapper she trusted him completely and that's the way to do it okay if you you know raw is a in an organization which is only concerned with activities abroad essentially now terrorism has made some difference but essentially it was all abroad we didn't have terrorism we didn't have the kinds of threats that you have today because military thread like maybe economic threat but primarily military threat was what we were concerned with in the early days then you


were concerned with in the early days then you have to interact with so many countries you cannot reveal too much to either side you cannot not reveal with unless you want to have some information back from them so it it he had to be discreet and quiet and and that would be the role model but now it's different now it's everybody is in a and also I think there are so many uh so many elements to it right there wouldn't have been so much of technical intelligence technical aspect compared to and none of it I mean when did internet come to India so it's only then that uh the whole thing has changed off and and mobile Communications I mean on your phone you have all the information of the world you can keep hmm and communicate how the organization keep training uh young officers to move with the times or is it hard for a government organization I think I think the problem is going to get worse and worse in the sense that we don't know where technology is going but we know that


don't know where technology is going but we know that today Facebook or whoever can download billions of material in a day you can have two billion messages down Twitter how do you keep watch if you want to keep watch maybe we don't need that kind of a watch because we don't have that kind of a global interest but the Americans or the Russians the Chinese who want to know what is happening everywhere all the time must be snowed under and now we're already talking about artificial intelligence which I read a book records Will's book the singularities near he said it would their time will come when the artificial intelligence will be Superior or be ahead of human intelligence now what if that goes Rogue and nothing nobody to control it okay so I'm going to rewind a bit um you know we talked about make doth we talked about operation make doth we talked about Cargill um tell us about 1972 onwards the hunt for Pakistan's nukes you speak about it in your book tell us about that


speak about it in your book tell us about that you know in March 72 Bhutto held kind of conference in Multan this is he held that and there he said I want the bomb who can deliver it to me I mean with that flamboyant flamboyance was so I believe somebody should have us I can do it in five he said not good enough somebody said three so that's the story it says okay you're the guy come now he does this then he comes to India in July 72 Shimla I'm gonna give him everything what we won in the war what we won on the battlefield we gave it at the conference table without a quid pro quo and since then I'm digressing with we have had this is when Pakistan's terrorism it gave birth to that you can't beat them on the battlefield we'll beat them differently buy a Thousand Cuts buy a Thousand Cuts that's when it started and but coming back to the nuclear set we can talk about that later about terrorism 72


set we can talk about that later about terrorism 72 there was a frantic hunt naturally for what the pakistanis are up to where it is coming from where is the knowledge it is a blank everybody it was a blank for them for everybody and after then we did the nuclear test okay 74 then the pakistanis hastened their attempts then little dribbler started coming out okay you know this Factory in that factory Karachi nuclear complex is being built and kahuta no Karachi nuclear power plant thing was being built and kahuta was listed as one of the spots and then Mr Muradi Desai the gandhiyan that he was prime minister of India prime minister of India 77 e or 78 he told we know about gauta okay and the Outlook got alarmed that these guys know so they they became it became more hectic there their their plans to collect and they closed in their gaps and then in 79 there is this report that it's not plutonium it's uranium uranium because they're hunting for


it's uranium uranium because they're hunting for inverters and those are inverters are used only if you want to use it for a uranium enrichment and they are you hunting for it all over Europe and some have been supplied already from I think from UK via Germany listed something else listed as cotton weaving machines and reaching a cotton spinning mean machines reaching Karachi and uh from then on it was a hunt everywhere we found things happening in Amsterdam we found stuff coming from by then Mr he had stolen the secrets from the Dutch nucleus plant where he was working the whole thing it says they got a ready-made material to build their systems and then the Chinese stepped in with their assistance after Pakistan's relationship with the Americans had worsened particularly after 72. the Chinese stepped in with their offers and nuclear material was shipped by the Chinese it was I think intercepted by us once in Bombay and not sent further Coast Guard Coast Guard probably you said that uh you know


Guard Coast Guard probably you said that uh you know we've seen this also there are reports there are movies made on this about how muraji picked up the phone and called up Zia and told him about kahuta let me get to the point where intelligence organizations give this kind of information and they are let down by the political Master at that time I'm saying using the master in a very loose way but the political head compromises on the National Security scene what happens then isn't it when you give intelligence uh of this nature it's highly classified it is right I would think that there'll be just three people or four people who would know it would probably go by Word of Mouth also at many times not even a returned report but you're you're saying specific information was given and the movie has it and there are articles about how you got to know about that and the the agent who was sent across and what happens to the morale of the organization when this happens there moral was in the


organization when this happens there moral was in the boots anyway but that aside anyone who does this it's a disservice it is a disservice I think in America if you did this there would be a code of inquiry in Britain also but here nothing happened he said it was he if you were to think back as to why he did that was it to um was it to just tell the guy that listen I know everything about you guys so don't do anymore if I was to just say you know take play The Devil's Advocate out here and just say do you think he had good intentions or misplaced good intentions you would think I I think I think it was misplaced good intention that you know I'll tell him that we know it so don't do it because there's no point we shouldn't be fighting a nuclear war but you very few of us have really understood what's what's in the Pakistani mind so um they were not going to stop they were not going


they were not going to stop they were not going to after 74 they were definitely not never going to stop they would have the bomb under a matter of time that they did so when you get compromised by giving that information do you stop then saying that do you stop hunting for Pakistan's nuclear program after that no no no you continued you continue because we don't know whether it's going to let down it's going to step down or step up after the disclosure so despite this Dhaka that comes in that the Prime Minister has gone actually to the enemy and given information to the enemy the raw continues to research and continues to get Intel on Pakistan's nuclear capability yeah is that it you still have to go on doing it because there's no stopping it another thing happened Mr Cow had been asked to leave after maraji took over and that was a very sad thing and then he went after raw with a shotgun as it were the Prime Minister prime minister Desai hacked cut stopped operations etc


prime minister Desai hacked cut stopped operations etc etc despite that Mr Cow got information that India was under pressure to sign the npt and maharaji being maharaji might do it the non-proliferation treaty non-proliferation treaty so um he spoke to Mr santuk who was the chief the Rawson was what succeeded Mr Cow not immediately but it was the third one and his recommendation was that we have to get in touch with Mr homie satna in Bombay they work Baba Atomic Research Center the he should bring pressure on morarji not to sign why would uh Mr miraji decided listen to satna and not do this not to the raw Chief because raw was in the pits those days ah okay so you have to use another Channel which Mr uh Desai had some regard for Mr Satan so off went to an officer from Delhi was that you no no it wasn't me it was sent to meet Mr setner explained to him I mean we and he then flew off to Delhi


mean we and he then flew off to Delhi met Mr Desai convinced him don't do it so the pressure was being put by The Americans surely okay to sign the npt with did they already have Pakistan's okay to sign the npt you talked about Mr Muradi Desai going after raw with a chainsaw what happened to you did you lose your job then no no you know there was a time but we used to all sit around the young officers you know people had the divisions were being closed not because the person was not required or not good but closing a division closing a station [Music] so you were at a station no I was at headquarters at headquarters yeah I was at headquarters I came back from my art station and uh hanging around and in all this thing I had no desk assigned to me because you're all so I actually went to one of my senior officers I said give me a job to do I'm just hanging around coming to office every day my wife is wondering


coming to office every day my wife is wondering what's going on you someday you come early someday you don't go what did they do send you to the library or something I believe that's what happened right most people were sent to the library yeah they had no place to sit because those days also we didn't have a building we were all in different buildings clustered in this division is here and this division is mostly in South Delhi okay because the Rew did not have one building where everybody worked and of course nobody could tell right that they work for an Intel organization was that with YouTube like you had this non-descript office that you went to yes first my first desk assignment was a non-descript office in suffocating Development Area okay and nobody that connects uh past the tennis lawn tennis thing dlta Delhi lawn tennis Association yeah there wasn't dlta then there was just and there was the Deer Park yeah and it was a very badly lit area so that's where your building


very badly lit area so that's where your building was and you used to work out of that nobody knew so I'm going to come into this you know like how does the family I know there's a lot that I have to ask you about you know intelligence operations failures all the successes but the real meat I want to know is what does it take to be a spy what how do you tell your family that I'm a spy do you tell your children I'm daddy is a spy how does that work no it doesn't work actually my kids didn't know for quite a while that what was the nature of my my job and they assumed I am from the I am from the external Affairs on ifs and they never asked any questions but when you get older and then you find that yeah the company that you keep the friends that you have and not from that hmm they're different so they begin to wonder they want to know that what do you do like for instance once it happened those days


do like for instance once it happened those days you don't have internet you didn't have mobile phones or email you can give different IDs and different means of communication it's only the telephone so I was doing Ops and they assigned me a new telephone separately only for this work with a different name Ops as in operations Ops is in operation so for your operational requirements I had to have a separate phone not linked to the office phone so it was installed and I had given a name to the agent that my cover name was this if you call me can you tell us Kumar is a typical name nobody knows that's not very imaginative not Innovative at all it's better that with this you can't trace it then and it's easier to remember easy to remember and you can't say everybody's everybody is a Kumar here so the phone rings my daughter picks up and she says hello oh go ahead and told him my mistake huh sorry it went out I said let me I'll land this phone


went out I said let me I'll land this phone he rang again thinking that he genuinely made a mistake so contract was established hmm so this this happened and then there were times when I would to order hours of work long hours of work sometimes off on a Sunday sometimes off on a Saturday then out of station then one day my wife actually asked me you go like this supposing I need any help what do I do you don't tell me where you're going you don't tell me when you're coming back I have a rough idea so I said I give you this phone number you go talk to this person he will get in touch with me when you want anything sorted out these are the kinds of pressures we have to work with and long hours just with two kids to look after is is tough and um you cannot tell them where you're going what you're doing right that's another thing is that they just know you've gone and you can't say which the reason I'm asking is you know because


say which the reason I'm asking is you know because um I recently met a woman pilot uh she's a wing commander and uh her uh her brother Works in some some kind of a military setup which is Intel based and or Special Forces I don't know what she he works for she couldn't tell me and I couldn't ask Beyond a point and she said you know uh he's gone for more than a year and she says we don't know whether we just know he's alive that's all we don't know anything beyond that so the mother just sits there that since she's not received bad news that's good news so does that work even for a spy that when when you are out on an assignment your family uh if it's not got news for some time they presume that everything is okay is that how it works there are two kinds of assignments you know if you go on a long-term assignment then it is this is what happens that you you assume that no news is good news but the kind


assume that no news is good news but the kind of assignments I had used to be short two three four days and back so it wasn't as if I'm gone and I don't know when I'm coming back where I've gone those things normally happen to people who are actually doing this spying hmm doesn't happen to those who handle spies or those who handle operations okay we are the guys we don't we don't go breaking safes ourselves you're the Handler we are the handlers so the Spy is the guy who comes and gives you this thing that's a special kind of training for that work yes would he also be called raw then no he's he's not an raw operative in that sense he's not a government employee he's a spy the private venture that must take a different kind of training mentality grit determination I could think of all kinds of things uh you know adjectives to add to that you know courage courage and presence of mind the thing is nothing is worse not no fear is


thing is nothing is worse not no fear is greater than the fear of a spy in a hostile country alone one mistake and he's gone a use of a wrong word can give race question you know my calling appears something else in Punjab I don't know I don't know enough Punjabi but there are there are different words just colloquially used in different parts of the country if you don't use the right word that people look at you hmm so but you're a Punjabi you live from here so you're out there when we were running agents use infiltrate them in the night darkness of night then he has to send you confirmation that he's reached his destination safely he couldn't send it Direct he would send it to another country and then we'll get it it could take days it could take weeks you just wait and you wait sometimes it never came what do you go through as a Handler when you know that you have sent somebody and he's probably gone it's awful awful because


and he's probably gone it's awful awful because it's not as if that he's got a number Register that is a employee of the government that you are honor bound There are rules and regulations that you will look after the family so we try and do that we look after the families that's all you can do that's all you can sort of protect them or give give them employment or jobs family is not allowed to speak about it to the trauma some some of them do comes to my mind um of course India says that he's not as by Pakistan insists he's a spy nobody knows what will happen with him and it's as if everything is forgotten about him yeah so it seems that he's gone into the deep underground yeah forgotten I met somebody who once said that it's probably better for him if he's dead because the kind of torture that happens in Pakistan to people from India who are suspected to be spies is horrific yep have you met with somebody who has


yep have you met with somebody who has come back alive no I haven't you haven't who survived there but um I remember Mr Rahman saying you you were talking about your colleague you Mr Rahman saying that um Black Ops were stopped by Mr gujral I want to ask you whether that's right or wrong or whatever but uh how important are Black Ops and especially with an india-pakistan sen you know kind of relationship I think it depends on the gravity of the relation or the the enmity and if the other side is going to work on you with terrorism and stuff like that then you've got to have Black Ops it's it's part of the trade then I had General BK saying on the show and he was talking about uh an an organization that he had created you know about that too the TSD and uh they conducted operations in many places so I asked him I said I've heard that this was done outside India's borders um but Black Ops had stopped because that's what we had


but Black Ops had stopped because that's what we had heard that Mr gujral so he responded he quipped and he said gujral by then and he said that that was necessary to create post 2611. uh because it's necessary to hit the enemy in their absolutely right you know we've never ever retaliated in the manner that we should have you look go through any of these incidents 93 we had the Bombay Bomb Blast what did we do and we had this horrible incidents in Kashmir where the kashmiri Hindu pundits had to flee we had the kidnapping of uh Sister Sister huh we had the killing of the the Air Force Squadron leader what did we do in return we later described Yasin Malik as a moderate so if you are going to treat them like this 2006 Bombay bomb lost train loss serial bombing we did nothing 2008 that horror of Mumbai we did nothing we declared Pakistan as a victim of terrorism remember yes and Havana I think yeah


victim of terrorism remember yes and Havana I think yeah decided they're also victims of terrorism naturally they're going to enjoy all this they'll step it up there was also Sharma Sheikh in which we yeah we below we accepted was brought on the table yeah after after shanmal Sheikh no you tell me it's um fine if you were to say that we have not done it you I presume you mean that the political leadership doesn't take the decision to do what we saw later as The Valor code strike maybe clandestinely we did with the TSD unit but straight away there are there is talk that we do do that but we don't talk about it we don't boast about it at the border we do we do take like a unit to unit will do it if if a unit in Kashmir at the loc there has been uh there has been a bombing or Skirmish two men gone here sure enough there will be an attack because it has to be Avenged yeah those kind of things happen


to be Avenged yeah those kind of things happen it never makes it to the papers when you say that you know so many instances where we didn't take any proactive move does the raw give intelligence to the political leadership that hey you've got to take this move you've got to take a proactive step otherwise they are galvanizing to do more on occasions yes there is an input that this is that unless there is political messaging political military messaging this will continue so it probably don't we don't do it every time it happens but there are assessments made and saying that this has to be done because the message must reach those who take decisions there I mean just an odd incident doesn't make a difference to them it doesn't hurt them like balakot would have hurt them because it's the message that is important URI was another message that was important that we will strike within your life we have the ability to do it and we will do it and we will do it again so that messaging has


and we will do it again so that messaging has to go unless that message you know this border May two hair and two there doesn't make a difference nobody it's it's a it's a number it's a figure who died in a skirmish but the political visible message is what has to be sent so what is your counterpart uh in Pakistan like the isi does that that do they take you guys seriously the raw do they feel that this is a potent organization because in India everybody says the isi because every every terror attack was is a masterminded by isi what about them they also say this their papers also say the same thing about us and I should have brought that I forgot to bring it they brought out a cartoon on me once uh me and a pied Piper's dress with the pipe playing on it they signboard saying India another one saying Pakistan and behind all the mice huh following me and on that they wrote Pakistani media why did they write that now I I was


media why did they write that now I I was I made the mistake of telling somebody yeah this is good for us this is this is an ongole were you cultivating the Pakistan media they think so so were you cultivating the Pakistan media well that's a belief that they have I'm don't want to deny it okay see uh one has heard about how the Indian and uh Pakistani spy Chiefs meet at different locations and then Vapor circuits business as usual yeah yeah I I've I've been to one of those meetings one or two of those meetings two early days of retirement nothing to do you ordered their people to be killed they've ordered our people to be killed yeah and still you can talk yeah I mean it's strange isn't it so we met and I found after the second meeting it was Unreal unreal I mean you just gleep talk and you say the same thing everybody says the same thing standard positions and we say we will do what it's good to meet and chat where do things