yeah one question will come on the seal yeah right so or uh you are going to get a question on the sewage system yeah yeah the roads in there it was the right angles and you know all those things you're going to get that uh on Akbar you knew like then you read about Mahatma Gandhi from Salt satyagrah onwards everything you read Because hundred percent there will be a 10 marker there will be a five marker there will be multiple choice everything on gandhiji will be there so you'll read gandhiji in detail yeah now so I said okay now that he's coming class 10 India and contemporary word none of your heroes are there in this okay um I'm gonna come to uh okay this is seven is interesting okay so this is class 10 uh I'm going to come here is your uh I'm going to come to class eight and the others so um class uh 12 part 3 Indian history none of your heroes are here right class 11. None Of Your Heroes class 12. nothing nothing


11. None Of Your Heroes class 12. nothing nothing none of your heroes are here Class 12 another book themes None Of Your Heroes but you're yes I hope you're getting this yes so you know whose heroes are here yes okay no uh class nine uh there is a little bit of mention when we are talking about class nine this this one is only about contemporary so it's not there uh in this when we are talking a little bit about uh your class eight there is one or two when it comes to women and caste system when it comes but and then maybe a few people are mentioned but nothing much okay now we come to this class seven oh that's the interesting book I love that yeah for various reasons yeah so there is chalukyas here in a map right yeah I mean there's hardly any mention of I'm looking at this that oh these are the new kingdoms it comes under new kingdoms yeah right it comes under new kings and new kingdoms and then of course it has got everything about


and then of course it has got everything about um what is hiranya Garba yeah you understand why it is written about hiranya Garba because it will be a one marker yes yes so somewhere let's put something which we can use as a thing but no you know what you talk about about the rashtrakutas and all which you talk about no they're all covered in that map in that map finish map this is how these people occupied this part of the and little bit about the administration and of course Vijay nagara is mentioned uh and then I mean oh in the in that too yeah a little bit no the just see uh all the coverage he gets is a photograph so 25 the entire book there's no description about who he was or what his achievements were just a photograph and a caption so that's all a child would read about shivaji Maharaj in India so when I mentioned this months long ago on Twitter about Indian textbooks and it's not there then I had a whole bunch of so-called liberal


then I had a whole bunch of so-called liberal uh uh liberal supporting people who you know who turned around and said God knows which history she's read I've read cbse but yeah I've gone through cbsc systems some of them were Bombay based yeah so you know people who've studied in Maharashtra yes okay you've gone through State uh you know history books and in in your state uh boards you might have read a little bit about shivaji Maharaj and you know about it but as far as the national yeah cbse basically what we read was that he was a loser yeah I'm sorry you can sue me if you want but what we read about was how he lost yeah yeah how he was killed Maharana Pratap how he lost the haldighati yes it was an indecisive battle by the way and a few years later they actually the battle of the divar they actually reconquered whatever they had lost mewar that is not talked about no yeah we read about the battles which


about no yeah we read about the battles which are great uh heroes or should have been our heroes they're Regional Heroes yeah then we lost the battles that they lost is part of central Board of secretary education and ncrt books nothing has changed right why are our new historians or I shouldn't say new historians but historians of repute who are now writing about are his Our Heroes why is it not been Incorporated why still that is a right question to the wrong person you have uh you know uh the ears and um eyes and them everything of the government and I think that should be addressed to someone in the government or not okay uh let me tell you that uh the first time that I could get through to uh somebody I did ask might as well mention it now yeah I mentioned it to advani ji and he was home minister or he had just become hominister in fact it was like they had just been sworn in and he was home minister and I took my son's history books and


minister and I took my son's history books and I showed it and I said these are the history books this is what is being taught up Yahoo guys garlic is there going to be any correction at all and he said murli manohar Joshi is now hrd at that time it came under hrd he's on hrd look and there will be a change and the incorrect depiction of our some of our Warriors some of our some some of the history narrative will be changed because how many years nothing has happened yeah I think I don't know now there's this there's a lot of talk of this new education policy and a national curriculum framework or whatever and there was this entire committee under Dr vinay sahasra Buddha who uh the Parliamentary committee particularly for textbooks and this whole thrust on unsung heroes and heroines need to be included but I don't know why it's taking so long because there is content there is material which all that needs to be done is incorporated because every year


needs to be done is incorporated because every year is like one generation lost and most children don't read history Beyond say class 10 or 12. yeah um they Branch out into other disciplines so the only brush they have with history or engagement with our country and its past he is only such a limited span so after that what you mentioned then it becomes a lot of unlearning and relearning uh so you've you've had an entire generation go uh you know not entire one generation several jobs that's what every year is like one one loss and they're they're going to have this further you know instilled in their heads as they graduate to college where I think the uh the content gets more toxic uh and more self-loathing and more uh you know you're looking at yourself with so much of derision I'm saying it's a very thin line Smith I think you know the I've mentioned it even in the prologue to this book that uh it can run down the slippery slope of jingoism and everything about


the slippery slope of jingoism and everything about our past is great I don't think it's that also I mean one shouldn't go that there was a golden uh Golden Era and then there was invasions and the dark era so that sort of a narrative also uh it becomes very uh very very problematic thing to to make everything that way correct and many I have seen many of these uh you know um literary festivals go down that path where you know in these two extremes that everything was in the The Glorious era was in the past yeah and then came islamization and then was our downfall and then the British came in this it's very reductive yeah yeah so I I think there needs to be the time has come where people genuine scholarship can be put inside a room people can sit across a table and have a grand Indian narrative as to what have what's been our story uh in the 5000 years or whatever of our documented existence uh and like China says until the


our documented existence uh and like China says until the Lions have their storytellers uh the history of the hunt will always glorify the Hunter and I think that's all we've been doing it's so well said yeah yeah so you know uh has not found I think the the lions in India have not found their Storyteller and that is the reason we see Indian history only through the eyes and details of all our Invaders but never of our native Heroes and heroines you know we talked about how the uh the shivlings were taken everywhere the Joe titlings were taken everywhere and saved and things like that um so when there's a lot that we have talked about and we have seen also it's a lived history of temples broken Idols chopped uh you know and like you said the jyotirlings taken everywhere prisoners slaves Sati johar there are so many so many of these instances of Loot and destruction uh you talked about how the slaves were taken or the the princesses were taken and


were taken or the the princesses were taken and kept in the Harem uh in spite of that there are some intangibles these were the tangibles of the jyotirlinga but some intangibles of culture and all have still survived how did they last to to my mind I think the very fact our strength was our diversity there was nothing called uh you know one religion one book One Faith one message the multiplicity in every every few kilometers I think there was a different uh Faith system and sanatan Dharma embraced everything uh from The Vedic to the tantric to the animist and shamanic Pagan rituals to uh atheism all of it was was accepted so if for an Invader to come and destroy if there was just one thing to destroy it would have just taken one blow but here they were you'd destroy one ten other things bring up uh and you know we're almost like the bijasur we keep springing up every time someone is uh destroyed and they uh the maximum efforts were


uh destroyed and they uh the maximum efforts were made to destroy all our centers of learning whether it was nalanda and vikramshila all our universities libraries all of these were burnt down but a lot of our knowledge survived despite that because it was oral tradition it survived through Word of Mouth generation to generation you killed a guru 10 of his shishias were there who propagated that in whatever diluted form of course we lost out a lot of the original content but I think a lot of it also perpetuated and survived and that is that story of resilience of us as a civilization that deserves to be told and that is what when I say the grand Indian narrative needs to come it's not with a sense of false jingoism or false Pride it's a sense of genuine Pride history has that utility too to this other what why are we reading these stories of the past it makes no sense to anyone to memorize by Road who came after whom it has


memorize by Road who came after whom it has little relevance or you utility in life beyond I mean everyone is going to become a engineer or a doctor or an economist or something else a foreign policy expert where does all this help you I think this sense of identity the sense of self-worth as a nation as a people and the mirror that it holds to us I think that utility of History fun has as the goal and then sets out the how do you you know populate it with the stories and the anecdotes and the incidents that is what is needed to be done now in my view you talked about diversity and being you know it's all coming under that umbrella of sanatana now this is what is you know Hindus are accused of this is this that you co-opt all of this yeah and you are you are mitigating or you're you're just kind of obliterating non-metically sorry obliterating uh you know the specific identities when you talk about animism this tribal form of


when you talk about animism this tribal form of worship of gods you're also this is also Hinduism Jainism you're also offshoot of Hinduism so this the criticism is that you're this you're adopting you're taking over everything I mean that of course you know where I'm leading to about Kamala Hassan oh God I am going to so first both these are questions into one one is was where the Chola is Hindu afterward Kamala Hassan said in the debate that got generated and two about this co-opting all this because kantra has raised all this you know that um my part of the country by the way and we talked about Rani abaka we'll come to that also of Buddha that's how basically you know frankly I got to know only about Rana Rani abaka through some childhood memory of yakshagana that I saw as a child not from my history texts right yeah so now come to this cholas and about animism and tribal version I mean if


and about animism and tribal version I mean if the cholas are not Hindu uh I'm first of all this is such a useless comment which should have just been ignored like how I ignored Rahul Gandhi's thing but I'm glad some people didn't because that generated I think a lot more knowledge and curiosity and inquisitiveness about the children yeah and rest of India about the vindhyas who look down on everyone below the vindias as madrasis they got to know that you know and thanks what a Grand Empire yeah thanks to Pony and Sylvan there's a increased I'm told uh the the book itself is selling so much the opponians the translations and all that after this movie has come and this controversy that way helped but to say that someone who's built the tallest uh you know Shiva Temple bredeshwara and gangaikunda cholapuram and the temple there uh they were worshipers of all aspects of uh you know the sanatan faith I mean they their ancestor they


know the sanatan faith I mean they their ancestor they called initially tiruman who was Lord Vishnu and then they called themselves as suryavanshis so they also propitiate propitiated the Surya and their family deity was this form of Devi called nishumba sudhini they had muruga temples ganpati was an important Motif in all the Chola you know flags and architecture and all of that yagyas were big yagyas mahadanas and all these were done by all the ranis and the rajas according to Vedic Traditions Sanskrit and Tamil were equally patronized those who could chant in both the languages they were patronized and these inscriptions the best part of the cholas is they've left so much of documentation yeah for a for a nation which has always been accused of not knowing how to keep its history uh right from al-baruni to everyone who said the Hindus don't know how to maintain their records the cholas have gone overboard my multiple copies of the same information on coins on


my multiple copies of the same information on coins on Temple walls on palm leaf copper plates the thiruvalangadu copper plates which are there that has right up in Java Sumatra yes and Sri Lanka Maldives all of these and these mention all these rituals The Vedic tradition uh the these things that were done and all the different panthas within sanatan Dharma were appeased and patronized and today the Builders of the most beautiful and wonderful temp Hindu temples you call them as not Hindu I think that's what our other dear friend Anand ranganathan in one of his many witty comebacks had said so are you going to say that till the time oxygen was invented and named so people were not breathing what were they breathing so the name Hindu was probably developed over the ages or whatever that's again subject to debate some people say it's I'm going to quote from your book uh Vikram yeah you've written in this that they had eliminated all possible rivals on


this that they had eliminated all possible rivals on the eastern coast of the subcontinent captured Kerala with its many important ports of Malabar and occupied Maldives and Sri Lanka this put them in a pole position as a leading player in Maritime trade of Asia as they held sway over several major trading ports again no mention of uh the the Chola is about their trading Maritime ability I mean the the very Malay word today the Malay word of today Malaysia and Indonesia was divided between SRI Vijaya in the west and the kingdom of mataram in Java now these are tell me these are not Indian words these are not Hindu words these are not what is it what are these and you know to come back to the cholas yeah I'm just you know your the Chola thing other than uh you know the Kings the the kingdom itself it is so readable that part yeah and um the the living proof of that is what you see in Southeast Asia where there are so many


you see in Southeast Asia where there are so many Hindu temples the Hindu motives whether it's a you know ramley line uh Indonesia Muslim country where still you know the the the culture is still they have those Hindu roots and traditions Bali and all these places you see even uh Garuda yeah Garuda varuna yes you don't see Garuda and varuna uh there's Ganesha on the currency yeah well someone else here wants Ganesha on the currency but then we have Ganesha on the currency I think in Indonesia yeah a Muslim country so all of these Trace back to those times when we had so much of and all these were facilitated not through Colonial activity we never colonized it's only cultural influence and trade inspired by trade shipping and Maritime tell me about that also which you talked about the south kingdoms yeah which you talk about particularly the cholas I mean they have indeed detail mentioned how their ships were built and how they went in the high seas the different kinds of


went in the high seas the different kinds of ships yeah different kinds of ships one the one which went only for seafaring and Merchant uh you know Activity one for battleships like a naval Armada and uh these the best part was at a time 10 25 CE uh when rajendra Chola attacked SRI Vijaya uh which is in uh the Malay Peninsula to actually have his entire ships go and attack 14 ports when there were no compasses and so on to know the direction how did they actually navigate the Seas so that also threw a lot of astrology astronomy wind directions that they studied in a particular nakshatra when the uh you know off in the Marga months when there is some nakshatra in the sky at that point the wind is going in this particular direction and this speed so then the ship leaves the port at this particular time then it is going to go and directly hit the port of Sri Vijaya I mean that kind of precision with which these people went and


that kind of precision with which these people went and did what they did and the the cholas along with the fatimids in Egypt and the song dynasty in China we were almost uh you know Global Powers when it came to the maritime trade these were the three major Powers at that time when it came to the entire uh you know Indian Ocean and Southeast Asian trade uh but you know that that that aspect that we were an important global economic power and also military power is seldom emphasized in the manner it should be uh foreign students if nothing else you know that um read up pick up text pick up books uh which tell you that India was a maritime power what we did with our you know otherwise what we've only learned about European Nations then being Maritime powers or even maybe even if you move towards uh Egypt and you know there two Central Asian countries being Maritime Powers but Indian Maritime achievements are not talked about and maybe 500 years later the re-establishment of that Maritime par under


years later the re-establishment of that Maritime par under chatrapati shivaji Maharaja and who I think understood the importance of uh you know Coast Guard built so many forts Coastal forts Across the Western you know concurrent and that entire Western Maharashtra region and that's why I featured kanhoji angre who was the circle of the the maratha Navy and uh if shivaji Maharaj was the father of the maratha Navy and probably Indian Navy we now have his Insignia also on the naval flag which is you know long overdue it was kanhoji angre who gave action to shivaji maharaj's dreams and though unlike the Chola as the maratha Navy never went into the high seas they were more like Coast coast guards what the European Parts would probably call Pirates but then they ensured that to trade in our country you need to get the permissions of the local uh you know power that be so be the Portuguese the Dutch or the English East India Company or even the


Dutch or the English East India Company or even the siddhis who were there in that part of the country they had a very tough time with kanoji uh to to to to get access to trading on the western coast since we are in the Deccan I'm going to move to Karnataka and uh since you and I both are from that state you know um when uh when when I came to the I mean I I went back and forth so when I came to Rani abaka what I did not know for certain is that there were there wasn't one Rani abaka yeah there were four of them and each one was different and you know had different uh contributions to make and uh I this came as a surprise so maybe people who studied from Karnataka board knew about it but there's certainly no mention about her nothing that we read about maybe or something like that as students you could get but if you did not have access to a British Council library or if you didn't have access


a British Council library or if you didn't have access you did not know about many of the people that you mentioned and certainly not about Rania bhaka yeah so and also there were like you know I'm going to read out again as I said I've got these points which I've got marked out which I find so fascinating and I'm going to read out in this um about abaka as the uh the Warrior Princess you know this fierce battle between the Portuguese and abaka took place in one 555 CE and when the former Center former sent Admiral Dom Alvaro does Silvera against the queen with 21 battleships several innocent people in ulal were tortured and murdered by the invading Fleet attempts were made to desecrate the somnatha temple in ulal which was bravely resisted by the nayakas of abaka who died fighting for this cause and then you talk about launching a surprise attack on them are we still talking about the Portuguese abaka managed to kill General


about the Portuguese abaka managed to kill General pixoto I'm I'm presuming that's the pronunciation and 70 of his soldiers the Invaders fled to their ships being thoroughly disgraced abaka followed in Hot Pursuit and killed the admiral of the fleet mascaranas along with the help of her 6 000 soldiers and the foreign army was forced to vacate Mangalore Fort would a brave lady yeah and her successor does something more heroic yeah in all these coconut chippu you put you know the ammunition and that's hurled at the in the middle of the night the RPG of then yes okay these were the grenades of them grenades and the entire Portuguese Fleet uh you know was burnt away that way and those stories traveled across the world apparently to the court of a Persian Emperor who talks about this incident of a small little principality in India whose Queen and her Army destroyed the mighty Portuguese Fleet and so uh one of the uh appear through de


and so uh one of the uh appear through de la Val whose Italian traveler he comes to India particularly then to see who is this lady uh you know who about whom the Emperor of Persia is talking about and so a lot of the uh the chapter of abaka is also first person account of De La Belle and what he saw about her how he of course thought that she was not at all pretty she was dark and obese and not the idea of the queen that he had you know cruel what he said and then he he uh calibrated calibrated after uh that that's very nicely depicted in that and he uses such crude words about her that it was she was dark and she was short and she was not wearing an upper garment yes but he did say that when she started talking he was fascinated yeah with that she was of nobility and she had such maternal concern for us for a stranger and a foreigner she asked him uh she asked somebody who's this


asked him uh she asked somebody who's this guy he looks different and strange and then he started a translator helps them connect and he says I've traveled all over the world and she very lovingly asks him have you had suffered heart breaks which is why you're going you know to soothe your heart he had thought that she can't talk because she doesn't have teeth right I I found and that she was into black magic and killing her own kids yeah all kinds of tales that's again another thing against women rulers uh you know even across the world actually yeah it's a global thing that they've had that they were witches and if they were not burnt at the stake that's another thing I want to say you know we keep talking about Sati as an Indian phenomenon women were burnt at the stake burnt in the western world too yeah so it's not in just an Indian phenomenon anyway I digress go on so yeah but the uh you know um I was


so yeah but the uh you know um I was talking with sushil who's uh my producer who's also from Karnataka and are we saying that you know uh my I read about ulal yes but what is my memory of ulala what is my thing of ulal is like not a single place where it says okay Battlefield this is where I only think I know about I read about bangadi only in your think banga you know the kingdom of I didn't even know there was a kingdom of banga and all I've done is take a state transport bus probably from there to here but to think that they were these famous battles that were fought there yeah historic battles people who lived there don't know Vikram correct true which is the saddest part and in fact I I believe even the uh the Chota Dynasty uh to which a Bakka belonged till about a couple of decades ago even they didn't know that there was someone called a Bakka in their family it was some kind


a Bakka in their family it was some kind of a scroll or something that they discovered when I met The Descendants uh they told me that probably 50 years 60 years ago they didn't know they had some vague idea that there was some heroic lady but the details were unknown even to the family so that is how undocumented it just disappeared into something and of course the memory was kept alive thanks to the folk rituals but the historical details were revealed much later through some scroll which they got and then slowly a lot of Scholars started putting together Dr vasantha madhava and so many others in coastal Karnataka they they started piecing together information about this these ladies who are called abaka deviaru in plural in that part so it was never so the yakshagana the recitals that I have been to so as it child when I heard about Rani abaka and and I saw this this is my earliest memories of a yakshagana recital Rani abaka was mentioned in


yakshagana recital Rani abaka was mentioned in one of that but you know it I was told that this is Legend not historical fact yeah so somewhere in all these you know people that you mentioned somewhere this Legend myth mythology history all this is all blending yeah so where how do you figure out it's only that's how our history has always been written and I think uh that's been the Indian way of historiography what about that well that too I mean in the same context where you know you invoke not only a deity but also ancestor worship ancestors and also kings and queens and all of that and so while mainstream historiography may have been unfair to all these people there nobody can take away the lived experience of a folk performance uh where as you also remember that there is someone like this maybe the your textbook did not talk about her which is so sad but she lives on in memory I think now the time has come to also bring them into the scholarly domain


come to also bring them into the scholarly domain and also document facts about them from whatever little fragments of story are left behind of all these people I think that um I mean in the prologue I talk about this shloka that is there about what history is in the Indian imagination you know um where it said that in a format of a story and for what purpose one is to achieve the four pillars of purusharta Dharma Kama Moksha and also upadesha samantham it has to have a didactic value to it there has to be moral value for society that which does all of this it is called as itihasa which it's also broken down in Sanskrit Isa it thus happened so I think it was a in the within that entire Cocoon of the story I think the kernel of the truth was somewhere embedded and it was up to the uh you know the the Seeker to actually get that out so the puranas the Mahabharata and the ramayana which are traditionally


Mahabharata and the ramayana which are traditionally called the itihasa have such fantastic you know mythological Tales rajatarangini too I mean it has all kinds of fanciful tales and gods and goddesses and you know yakshas and this and that and all these stories are there but in that somewhere is also embedded the the historical truth and I think that's how our ancestors saw preservation of knowledge of all forms not only history I mean even mathematics and so on everything was written in a kavya format the role of the kavi the Maha kavyas that were written so they say the sulbasutras have the Pythagoras I mean the Pythagoras Theorem was inspired by the sulbasutras but if you go to the suluba sutras and see it's not a formula like the best a square equal to b square plus C Square it will be in some form Square on the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the square of the other two sides so so they give


square of the other two sides so so they give the longer form of that but they're in a in a poem poem somewhere would be embedded this this truth of that uh you know mathematical equation so in everything we had a very different it was not knowledge had to be sought it's not so easily spoon fed to you so similarly History Two was written in kavya form it had to have this Katha yuktam it had to have some upadesha to society and that is how we wrote our history that's how you have written this also it's very caviar form it's there is a uh if I was to uh if somebody was to ask me what is linking these guys that you have picked the 15 of them I can't I can't actually put a tangible thing that ha okay this is what is linking them but then like you said that there is a moral to the story there is there is something linking them what is that magical thing that links them do you


what is that magical thing that links them do you do you know of anything or did you pick them because there was some linking I think it just fell in place by itself it was really quite uh you know the way all of all of these just assembled themselves I uh after an initial planning and later on I say hey I think there is a mosaic that just got created you know without my active conscious uh effort into doing this of course as I said lot of other people got missed out but I think so there's an episode two which is after that okay so uh Vikram tell me about Sharda Pete it's so close to my heart I mean uh it there is a linkage so that's why I want to just ask you well uh I mean when I was doing this uh research on the Lalita chapter uh I saw that you know again the indic imagination of what a great Empire is it's of course you know all the opulence the magnificence of palaces and temples


opulence the magnificence of palaces and temples and all of that but alongside each Empire I think contested with another to be a center of learning and knowledge so even Lalita when he goes and conquers Yeshua varman and all these people he brings Scholars from that part to his court if the idol from the you know normally they say um Idols were destroyed even by Hindu rulers which is not true you would take away the idol of your opponent bring it back to your kingdom and build a much more magnificent Temple for the same Idol so you're not demolishing the ideal like the iconoclastic waves of Islamic conquest did uh whatever is precious to your opponent be it intellectuals be it deities you're bringing it back and giving it a better uh you know importance in your Dom Main and that's how you have conquered your your opponent so I think Lalita the kind of people and all these bhava bhuti the poet all these people who come to


bhuti the poet all these people who come to the Kashmir Court charvak sushruta uh the ayurveda this one and Atri Gupta is the grandfather of abhinav Gupta who begins this entire Kashmir shaivism school um Tantra Kashmir shaivism tantric this one Buddhism and how that influenced even the Tibetan School of Buddhism all originating from Kashmir astronomy astrology it was invaritably the center of knowledge and learning and that's why I think around the same time when ADI shankaracharya goes there and by then he has established the much that the four cardinal points of India south west north and east and then goes up to Kashmir and establishes the what is the sarvagna Pete the all-knowing and dedicated to Sharda who is the goddess of learning and the script there is also Sharda script of Kashmir uh so the Pinnacle of knowledge of civilization of culture along with material opulence uh you know Empires expansion going to all these different parts


know Empires expansion going to all these different parts the importance of social knowledge which has been destroyed for that very reason that that I think had the quintessence of the Indian civilization to a large extent which had to be destroyed you have to break the back of us as a people I can understand that that was that was their aim yeah what was the what is the explanation succeeding generation hundreds of years that we don't tell our children this even today if we were to hold say a literary Festival in Srinagar will this come out I don't think so no right yeah yeah even today we don't talk about it yeah so that's what that's why I want you know stories which you tell in the book I just hope it inspires people to pick up and read about it read about even if you are from Kashmir if you are from the Northeast like oh yeah I I didn't talk about the Northeast so let's let's go into that let's go into the Northeast part when we talk


let's go into the Northeast part when we talk about the home kingdoms uh the mateys let's talk about that tell me something about that before we conclude I mean the Holmes rule for 600 years yeah in Assam and they kept it largely an impregnable Fortress buying a couple of attacks near Joomla and others uh Assam was not conquered and the large part of western Assam which meal Joomla conquered during aurangzeb's time was within a matter of 10 years 12 years the the homes completely reorganized themselves built themselves from scratch under their ruler chakra and his uh commander lachit bharpukan and we have the Battle of Sarai ghat uh you know where the mughals were beaten black and blue and sent back uh Raja Ram Singh of Jaipur who's sent with a huge Army by aurangzeb to conquer the kamrup back he's defeated completely and this again doesn't nobody knows about now as I said of course thanks to all these efforts we have the


of course thanks to all these efforts we have the 400th year of legit uh being said Divas being celebrated and himanta Sharma has picked it up and made it his life's Mission I think so I'm so glad she's so glad and I think he's also written to all the chief Ministers of all states that they should include one chapter of lachit in their respective uh you know School curriculum the entire details of from the Assam burunjis the the documentation uh in Assam is so uh so beautifully captured I was so uh pleasantly surprised to see what are called the burunjis which are the the Chronicles the multiple uh you know editions of these covering almost the entire span of their Rule and these have been digitized the previous Assam governments all of them have done a lot of work on restoration of this but why is mainstream what is mainstream first of all what is why is mainstream India not listening to these stories similarly the metis rulers I talk about Palm


stories similarly the metis rulers I talk about Palm Harbor in the book nagaland and Manipur yeah yeah it spans yes I mean the borders are different from what they are now now so that entire region I mean was the one who introduced Hinduism in Manipur uh and then his successor whom I cover in the book uh Singh brings this whole vaishnav sampraday the manipuri RAS Leela that you see today then natasan kirtana all of that happens under him the govind ji uh Shri govindji in Manipur was established by him he offers his own daughter as Radha uh to the because it the idol of Radha could not be sculpted on time for the installation and they all wonder what to do and he offers his own little young daughter as and creates this dance form so while on the one hand he is also keeping the Burmese armies a Czech who are constantly invading Manipur there's a toss of the throne between the two mateys and the


of the throne between the two mateys and the Burmese but at the same time he's also doing a spiritual and cultural Renaissance the name Manipur also is very sanskritic name is given to the kingdom by him and today if vaishnav you know satras and so on in Assam Manipur that entire region it's all because of you know these roots of the ahomes and the metis and these people so the civilizational heroes that I spoke of may not be in the traditional sense of going to a battlefield and fighting but keeping your faith alive and probably creating a Renaissance there in the wake of adversities and calamities I think that's where their contribution becomes so important but again we don't know much about them we don't read about them yes and so that's why I'm hoping that you know there is curiosity generated uh and people read and make up their own minds rather than being you know told that this is right or wrong read read about your cultural history read about uh something


read read about your cultural history read about uh something that you were supposed to be embarrassed about you'd have no reason to be embarrassed about that and I mean it's not I I think we should also mention our Follies it's not always that you know like I said everything about the past is great and we we were the best I mean the other extreme we knew the in nuclear bombs we knew everything I mean some of it is true some of it is fantastic so I mean too much of that exaggeration is also correct I think goes on the Looney path so I think a balance is needed yeah where things about ourselves our ancestors their achievements we were not sitting idle for five thousand years six thousand years doing nothing so what were the knowledge systems created what were the achievements we had what were the take Tales of courage and resistance we put that famous couple it is thrown at us right what is that kuch it's not of course the spiritual strength of this


it's not of course the spiritual strength of this civilization but along with that there was also military strength just through spiritual resistance you can't stay alive for so many even all other civilizations of your own time have actually collapsed so I think that story of this country is dying to be told and to quote that uh famous speech this the soul of a Nation long suppressed I think needs to find utterance now when there is a genuine Reawakening among Common People of India irrespective of the political dispensation of who's in power and what I mean today I think the common Indian has awakened uh and they're asking questions and that is what Riles a lot of status quo is and establishmentarians who do not want the subaltern to speak so um Vikram before we conclude uh this is uh since we are three uh sitting out here so she my producer is also here so we're going to put one controversy a historical controversy yeah I'd say you since you're the historian yes the


I'd say you since you're the historian yes the historical controversy to rest and this is for you Anand right we're going to have Mysore Park out here and I have a historian here who's going to tell us Mysore Park Karnataka of course or Tamil no way Tamil it is and I mean we we know the story it was an albedi krishna's Court where I mean I think he wanted suddenly he said I want to have something sweet to eat and the cook did not have anything else to do so he just cooked some you know jaggery and this and that and he put some besan powder and made some random dish and brought it to the Maharaja who loved it and said what is this called so he said my suru Paka the Paka the the entire this one that is sugar sugar and that's how the Mysore Park was born and these the millions other than kaveri water they also wanted myself not done now by the way I'm half a


not done now by the way I'm half a million to be honest and half a maharashtrian so we are not working together side might actually disown me for doing this but then to spite Anand anything anything right here so let's let's God on the Mysore Park in this in honor so I'm gonna have my editor also come in he's from Kerala Anand so he's he's the neutral guy now you come so we're going to have to like like the heroes and heroines of our book um we've created this alliance with yes other states against the common enemy so come now you are going to you are going to have so now Kerala is with us yeah right so we're building the alliance are there any other states no but this is Mysore Park and Mysore Park is so on that note on that throwing the gauntlet on that sweet note and after throwing the gauntlet and I'm 100 certain that Anand is going to go on on a television network forget about a podcast


on on a television network forget about a podcast you can go on a television network and put us down but then we have decided that Mysore Park is right right Karnataka right thank you Vikram so much thank you so much for writing this book and for coming and speaking on the AI podcast thank you Smitha such a pleasure and thanks for the Mysore Pak and thanks that we settled it the historical debate once for all I'd already settled it in coimbatore when Anand and I were there but I think this is more on records absolutely absolutely we only factual stuff yes right thank you thank you thank you very much okay thank you for watching or listening in to this edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have heard this or seen this namaste foreign [Music]


the transgressions are not actually localized only Eastern ladakh we have areas of different perceptions right from Eastern ladakh to arunachal the various agreements which are in place categorically rule out the use of force or resorting to firing but you cannot only observe one paragraph of the agreement and violate all others for the first time ever they were cautious that this tactics or this strategy of theirs of trying to overwhelm by Superior force will not work but if you have now coming with clubs studied with barbed wire what does that mean you violated the agreement India as a country showed to the world yeah that it is possible to take on that neighborhood bully we have as a nation the political establishment all the other Ministries and the bureaucrats the military establishment or population our population which has so much regard and appreciation for our armed forces that is our greatest strength Namaste welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash we are recording and broadcasting this episode on the


we are recording and broadcasting this episode on the week of Vijay Divas we've also just recently heard of Chinese aggression on our border we are honored today to have amidst US general Manoj mukund naravani in this podcast I'm also joined by my colleague defense editor Ajit tube General Manoj mukund naravani served as the 27th chief of the Army staff till April 2022 he took over from General bipin rawat General naravani's tenure was in action-filled one especially the Chinese aggression of 2000. General naravanay's contribution in pushing back the enemy will make it to history book someday but as you will see in the podcast the mild manner General will never speak much about his own role in India's counter move that resulted in India's troops regaining Advantage On the Border however General naravani took us back to that period when we were attacked along the line of actual control what happened then what were the lessons learned how it has probably impacted in our


lessons learned how it has probably impacted in our reaction to China's aggression in 2022 General naravanevi are so honored that you're here with us Ajit and I have had the Good Fortune of attending your press briefings I've met you in your office uh when you were chief of Army staff uh you know when uh when a chief of Army staff superannuates the uh The Establishment whether it is uh your the political establishment or the services they get to say thank you but civilians don't get to say thank you to you sir so thank you for your services and on behalf of all our viewers all our listeners uh we are most grateful for what you have done for our country for having me here today and I'm grateful for your thanks but the thanks are not actually due to me but to the entire Indian army who is actually in the service of the nation so that's that's again typical of you to say this you that's the fact actually right so uh for our viewers and our


fact actually right so uh for our viewers and our listeners uh we are running uh this program a day um uh before Vijay divas and uh also we are running this uh program a day after it has come uh to the attention of all of us that there has been a Chinese aggression uh in arunachal Pradesh and as we are recording this program uh raksha mantri is uh speaking or going to speak soon in Parliament uh the three service Chiefs have briefed the raksha mantri Mr rajnath Singh and he is going to be speaking in Parliament so in the middle of the show we will probably interrupt and get uh General Subs views on this um you know when uh when China tried to alter the status of the line of actual control this was on uh in May 2020 uh at that time you were the Army Chief uh tell us what happened then uh and the subsequent months because the tension continued uh the aggression continued for several months and uh what was the situation


for several months and uh what was the situation then and how did you deal with it when you see China has been trying to alter the status go along the Lac for many years and decades in fact and they have been doing this in very small incremental steps which by themselves do not look very dangerous they'll actually look quite innocuous you know what we call Salami slicing coming up one inch at a time but in the bargain over a period of time they have gained a lot and this is the tactics that they were have adopted and we are continuing to do but there was a time to say this much and no further so that is what actually happened as they kept trying to probe especially north of the pengang so when they were trying to probe and come closer and closer in these areas of differing perception you know they come time and again and then they try to make that the historical fact that we've always been coming here whether they try to alter the status quo


coming here whether they try to alter the status quo as it is existing when you say come what does that mean when they come and they don't leave you mean they stay sometimes they that is what we can test that is precisely what happens in these areas where we have different perceptions we also petrol up to our perception line they come up to their perception line but while this is happening if the petrols come face to face at the same time then obviously there is a chance of a skirmation or a clash happening so what happened in 2020 did we not have the Intel that they have come and they are not leaving no it's not that they came in were not leaving their they were continuously patrolling up to where they thought that they should be coming but they were not allowing us to go where we are out to go therefore we had to be more assertive and push them back and that is where the clashes occurred whether it is a North Bank of bengang


occurred whether it is a North Bank of bengang so or whether it is in pp15 where of course those unfortunate casualties took place the pp-15 means the galwan valley the galwan valley that's right so what happened in galwanza as I said we have been always patrolling up to pp15 where they were trying to stop us from going to a traditional patrolling point and that was totally unacceptable to us and to stop us from coming they had established a small Outpost you can say just two tents and we objected very vehemently to that but this was in May 2020. it was ongoing it was going on so we objected vehemently to that but there were adamant that they would not go back and therefore we had to be more assertive and that is when they also came with additional strength and the entire Clash happened in that area of short of means on our side of pp15 but as a result we were able to make sure that they go back so when you say


make sure that they go back so when you say we are we were assertive we were vehement what does that translate to actually yeah so you see over the years they've been many protocols which have been laid down whether it is on Border peace and Tranquility agreement the bpta or protocol and confidence building measures so in all of them the various Provisions to make sure that such clashes do not occur for example if two patrols come to face to face they have to stop wherever we first see each other and then only the leaders come up along with one buddy and negotiate at that point and then they go back you're not supposed to come close together the strength of the petrols have been laid down So that obviously if both sides are equal strength the chances of a clash are less but the one side is 500 and the other side is 15 and obviously the side which is 500 feels emboldened so over a period of time they were violating one by one all the


of time they were violating one by one all the provisions of those those agreements so at some point we had also to counter them so they were violating then obviously we had to take counter measures that is what I mean by we were more assertive and not taking things lying down see as per the timeline which we have I mean there are very various timelines to this because nobody is quite sure but in May China transgresses in 2020 in August India accuses China of provoking and then subsequently several transgressions happen and as you said we protest we object then India accuses China of provoking military tensions twice in August China denies blames India for standoff in September China accuses India of firing shots at its troops and then exchange of fire first time in 45 years happen now you're the Army Chief at that time what was going on in your mind because were you then at that time because you've said several times that you have to be prepared for War as an army Chief you


to be prepared for War as an army Chief you have to prepare your troops for war so were you prepared for war at that stage age with China I see the transgressions are not actually localized only Eastern ladakh we have areas of different perceptions right from Eastern ladakh to arunachal and these transaction congressions are happening from time to time in various places in Eastern ladakh and the central sector barahoti in Sikkim in arunachal so this is a quite a something that we always prepared to counter but as I said the various agreements which are in place categorically rule out the use of force or resorting to firing but you cannot only observe one paragraph of the agreement and violate all others so if you have violated all the others then I am free to fire so you cannot accuse me of firing when you have done all the violations there doesn't that is does that mean you will come with 5000 people and I will just keep sitting obviously I will fire and that is what


sitting obviously I will fire and that is what they were scared of and that is moment we opened a fire they realized that they made a mistake and this whole gamut of this border agreement has gone to a different level altogether and that is what imposed caution on them for the first time ever they were cautious that this tactics or this strategy of theirs of trying to overwhelm by Superior force will not work in the face of India Italian India retaliating or opening fire right for the benefit of our listeners and years one second Ajit I'm just going to come to you I'll just you know because there are many instances when we talk about it but you know as journalists you and I might understand but if there is a student for example or somebody sitting outside of India who may not be aware of the complexity of this just a small explainer um you know if you don't understand the uh boundary engagement that India has with China uh there's just a small explainer that in


China uh there's just a small explainer that in 1993 an agreement was signed by India and China between India and China that neither side will use or threaten to use Force against each other by any means no activities of either side shall overstep the line of control and in case Personnel of one side cross the line of actual control remember its line of actual control Lac as opposed to loc C which is on our western front now on Lac in case the Personnel of one side actually cross as Jen saw was explaining then like for example if China crosses or somebody from China crosses then the Indian side uh shall warn them caution them and say that you have crossed so once that caution happens but more relevant part about this agreement is that neither side shall open fire or hunt with guns and explosions within two kilometers of from the line of actual control now the line of actual control is also kind of not defined in many places so that's where all the trouble also occurs so it


that's where all the trouble also occurs so it brings me to the um initial question I had General Saab that there was this agreement and then there was this aggression and they were pushing us this was now you are the Army Chief what happens then this was precisely the agreement I was referring to the 1993 one where it specifically mentioned that there will be no unilateral change of the status quo you will not come with weapons you will not come with arms but if you have now coming with clubs studied with barbed wire what does that mean you violated the agreement it was the first time that this club with wires happened they have been doing that they've been earlier so as I said they have been continuously violating the agreement okay now if you're violated half the agreement that doesn't mean that we will not we'll just keep listening um the nature of the enemy has been similar persistent or was it altering we saw in the 2000s no they have that's long-term strategy


the 2000s no they have that's long-term strategy has always been the same to keep inching forward and keep probing us for any possible weakness and if there is a weakness okay then come and sit there and then always say that this is how it always was so therefore every small probe probing action has to be contested in that in that I think you were you were a question sir you said uh that the Chinese were violating the agreement by bringing in large number of troops armed and all so uh this uh prior to uh May 2020 aggression which they did and the story came out how big were the numbers mother how did they manage to bring in so many troops so close to our uh border we have heard there was an exercise the diverted troops from there but uh like uh how did we know that this is happening no see whenever patrolling is going on we always come to know that the patrols are there and are coming we just mentioned about young say the beginning of the


we just mentioned about young say the beginning of the talk so when they're assembling we do come to know that they are assembling so it's not that you are taken entirely by surprise but the fact is that we don't expect them to violate an agreement so it is a agreement that is is being violated time and again so that is the point to note that if you are violating the agreement then we reserve the right to take any action that we deem so this agreement was signed uh you know decades ago but how do you as an army Chief tell your men to defend a hot border with no weapons how do you how are you going to instill in your men and women now that confidence to there's a hot border you have an enemy which is coming at you how do you defend it so I will like to clarify when you say no weapons we carry weapons it is not that weapons are not carried but that is where our men have to exercise great restraint that in the


our men have to exercise great restraint that in the face of provocation not to fire because we are as gentlemen following the agreement but when the enemy when the pla was violating these agreements then we also told them that if they are violating then you are free to take whatever actions you want to take in your self-defense what is the weapon that you uh that is carried if you may ask and where is it carried is it carried on the on the body of the uh the soldier who's there when you go for a patrol you go totally armed and expecting the worst and a firearm yes a firearm you carry your rifles you carry your light machine guns you carry your ammunition you're ready to meet any eventuality it's not that you'd go of patrolling with just Dundas in your hand not that okay so there was somewhere it came that you know the Indian troops are named I'm sorry that is not a correct statement which came a report which came at that point every Patrol


came a report which came at that point every Patrol which goes goes ready to meet any eventually they're armed as Perth laid down scales and as per the patrol that they're going for and they were equipped also accordingly if their patrol us to cross some water obstacle they will keep carrying their expedience to cross that water obstacle that River they just don't go as if they're going for a picnic right so it's it's a little hard for us to uh to understand that uh that an Indian soldier is carrying a weapon he sees his unit Chief being killed and doesn't use his weapon that is why there was this there was this outrage that you know how why so although we did not fire we also resorted in a similar vein so you see though it was always a question of who will open fire first so since we felt that we had the measure of the pla troops over there we also counted them in the same way that they were sort of taking action against us


way that they were sort of taking action against us which was basically by the use of non-lethal that means not not actually firing although casualties did occur by other thing that you so if they were carrying sticks then we were also carrying sticks and Sir uh we were also we have after the first instance where they used the barbed wire clubs and all these things we have also now uh started using the such Stakes with the spikes and all so we would still like to maintain that we are 21st century Army to start going back to clubs and Barbed wires is going back to prehistoric times I think it is a very regressive way of going we would still like to maintain that we you know in Warfare also there are certain rules it is not that you just do whatever that you want to do right so we would still like to maintain a professional stance and therefore rather than resort to wielding clubs we rather open fire that is how Army fights correct by using the weapons at the


how Army fights correct by using the weapons at the disposal and not getting into fisticuffs is there any other parallel in the world where two armies or two neighbors have decided that we will use these clubs and monkey what is it called monkey web something it is called so that is precisely what you are saying are we Hooligans professional Army is that the level that pla has gone down to hooliganism and street fighting or their professional 21st century Army on one side they try to show their technological prowess on the other side they're coming with barbed wire clubs it is ridiculous did you laugh at them when they were wielding May mace and yes of course regressive there's no other vote for it yeah but gen sub uh 15 June 2020 you get information on at least we got information that Colonel Santosh Babu and his men died in action you might have got it a couple of hours before we did what went through your mind at that stage see uh any casualty of course


at that stage see uh any casualty of course hurts you your as the chief not and not only as the chief as a battalion Commander as a brigade Commander every man is is your is your man is he is your son or daughter so any uh such information or news that comes obviously you feel a little saddened by this kind but on the other hand you also feel that yes what they have done is in the line of duty and they have certainly given as good as they got and that is actually the fact whether the pla admits it or not whether the Chinese admit it or not they also give it back to the enemy and of course in any such Clash or battle or War casualties will happen on either side that's part of the game if I can say so hmm so but uh there was also that situation where we where we had to literally force them to give back the bodies and we had to give our from our side we had to give what what


our from our side we had to give what what happens there in that situation that that stage is there a negotiation which happens that returned the bodies of our men who have died and then we have to give how does that happen there sir of course you know once the Clash has happened and temperatures have cooled down both literally and in actual fact then the senior Council of course prevails you know the Clash is always In the Heat of the Moment and later on when the flag meetings were held between djmos no between and on the ground on the ground on the ground the flag meetings were held we of course facilitated the flag meeting through our official channels in the including the Diplomatic channels and on ground the flag meetings were held at the place where the clashes occurred and that is where then the or men came back were returned to us so we will interrupt with what the defense minister said so uh his speech in Lok Sabha is just running and some of the


Lok Sabha is just running and some of the pointers are that on December 9th in yangte area of tabang sector pla troops encroached upon and attempted to change the status quo the attempt by pla to encroachment was tackled by our troops in a determined manner our troops bravely stopped the pla from encroaching Upon Our territory and forced them to go back to their post the defense minister said in Lok Sabha that the matter has also been taken up with China through diplomatic channels as you were mentioning gents are that this happened earlier too raksha mantri then said that he would assure the house that our forces are committed to guard our borders and ready to thwart any attempt that will be made to challenge it in the face of few soldiers on both sides suffered injuries raksha mantri said that he'd like to tell the house that none of our soldiers died or suffered any Serious injury due to the timely intervention of Indian military commander


to the timely intervention of Indian military commander us pla soldiers have retreated to their own locations flag meeting is was held with the Chinese counterpart and the raksha mantri said that the Chinese side was refused all actions and told to maintain refused all actions and told to maintain peace at the border it's uh and it maybe it has has refused okay but maybe they're not accepting that they've done it okay maybe trying to imply that right so uh this uh what we have heard through sources is that uh is in that uh I think Ajit also will say there's that it's happened before before I mean earlier this year this is 2022 it's happened on a couple of occasions where the Chinese side has tried to come in this was probably a larger incident which is sorry come to light could you tell us whether it is similar to what happened in uh 2020 uh similar in Yang say yes it is in fact young says one area where the Chinese keep trying to come over


one area where the Chinese keep trying to come over across the river into the youngster sector and this is not only of 2020 they try to come every year and every year they make two three such attempts to come and they're rebuffed every time okay of course from their side also they must be having some pressure from their senior commanders that how is it that you come back every time crossover casualties or get more land is that no because it's a it's a country which is hungry for land all the time even though they're such a large country they are they're greedy to capture Landings yeah so that is why their commanders would be pressing their people also that at least go up to our stated claim line but we do not allow them to come even up to there and they have to cross a river to come to our side and that is where we block them and we are on a tactically advantageous position so it's it's well impossible for them to come but yet year after year


impossible for them to come but yet year after year they keep attending the same thing and year after year they suffer injuries and go back of course in the bargain we also suffer some injuries but they've always been at the receiving end and they make two three such attempts every year and the last one is normally before the onset of winters so and before the snow has come and then all such tactical actions would thereafter not be possible so we expect this every year and we were very well prepared to thought it it used to happen in the western sector too in sea urchin till uh till an operation happened and they were evicted out and they learned their lesson and said because we didn't move out from there what is it similar uh in you know what happened in sea urchin and what's happening in galwan and what's happening in yangte area I think to an extent because of the stand we have taken and because we have now made it very clear that this unilateral


we have now made it very clear that this unilateral changes will not be tolerated by us so by and by I think it will Dawn on them that there is no point in escalating the situation all the time and it will be better to move towards a permanent solution to this border problem rather than keep this friction alive and as a foreign minister I said as long as the Border question is resolved it cannot be business as usual right so I think over a period of time this realization will Dawn on them it is better to have a stable and peaceful border rather than continuing to have such small incidents every now and then which is you know it becomes a setback to our overall relations hmm do you think it's adorning I mean you've attended several meetings with them do you think that they are receptive uh they are it's an army which is receptive to change or it's not I would not say the Army receptive to change it has to be the political establishment which has to be


has to be the political establishment which has to be receptive to change and should realize that they really want peace and Tranquility in the region if they want China and India to re-emerge as the you know geopolitical and the economic Hub that we were in the 18th century in the 18th century it was China and India which contributed 80 percent of the world's GDP so if you want to regain that position in the future then it would be better if China and India are friends rather than having this competition and confrontation every now and then sir I would like to take you back to the galwan issue uh you said the Chinese had put up tents and we opposed that vehemently and uh so during galwan when we took action those tents have been now pushed back yes and we did it successfully the team led by Colonel Santosh Babu and his men they pushed back the Chinese from that position where they had pitched their attention it was not so clear-cut as it seems now


it was not so clear-cut as it seems now so there was a period when they tried to push them back they were still there and then as a result of the talks which happened thereafter in 10-15 rounds of talks took place and then in every round of talks we agreed to disengage from where we were and as a result of that disengagement now the status quo has been restored in all the locations in all the locations yeah so and can we say that uh the the status quo which the Chinese wanted to change unilaterally post 2020 from May 2020 we have gone back to the older positions uh after the several roundups which we have that's right so post these several rounds of talks the status go as of April 2020 has been restored okay Jill sir I'm going to pick a code of yours in an interview you had said uh army people are the last people who want to go to war it's always better to have the whole nation approach and have a good


to have the whole nation approach and have a good relationship with your neighbors a stable relationship with all your neighbors because if you have stable relations the country prospers and should that should be the aim that should be done at a political level diplomatic level but you need the Army if you want to ensure peace be prepared for war I'll take you back to that situation when you became Chief and uh when this thing happened when this action happened how do you prepare for war uh when the other side has already attacked you has already come were you prepared for warwaza was the Indian army prepared to go to war with China as a country as a nation and as a army we are always prepared for war it is not that we are not prepared at any point of time appreciation of likely threats is a continuous process when intelligence inputs are always there of who's mobilizing how they're mobilizing so the kind of mobilization which had happened on the Chinese side was not indicative of a war it


the Chinese side was not indicative of a war it was a mobilization for the small probing actions here and there oh that's very significant what you're saying for a country to go to war there are many more indications which would be there at the Diplomatic level at the economic level so such as you'll stock up on your oil reserves you will stock up on your food cater for any disruptions to that supply lines so these these kind of indications will be start coming from six months in advance eight months in advance okay was don't happen overnight right so today you're sitting quietly like this and at midnight today you're at War it's not that way see Russia in Ukraine the mobilization happened people kept saying that war will be there all will not be there they were partly is going on track two discussions with going on but after when everything failed that is when Russia decided to attack it's not the 24th February one fine day they went off yeah but you know we knew that


they went off yeah but you know we knew that something is happening but on China is there Intel available that's what it is we should not discount our uh forces or other agencies we are very good Intel we know what is happening and in a era of you know technology with satellites and all we very well know each and every move of this and as I said in the whole of nation approach it is not the Army alone all the organs of the state are rnaw is doing a wonderful job we know exactly what is happening so let's not be under this delusion that one fine day we're going to get surprised and be at War we will get adequate notice we will get adequate notice to mobilize we'll get adequate notice to go and occupy our defenses and be prepared in all respects you know this I can say that with utmost confidence to the entire nation that we will always be ready to face whatever is thrown at us so in 2020 one one question then you


at us so in 2020 one one question then you go in 2020 there was a lot of uh there were these propaganda videos which came out from China if you remember that you know these trucks going with thousands of thousands of people being mobilized of course they were takedowns by the Indian side which said fake videos here and then there were these that you know all are all those trucks which were moving they had mobile toilets with them whereas our forces don't have it so there was you know like a lot of propaganda War which happens uh during these kind of situations is India equipped to handle that kind of propaganda War which comes in for that actually again I would say at the military level we are very much capable of handling and because we know what is what is what on ground we know we can see them we know what their physical standards are in fact at the height of the crisis in eastern ladakh their troops over in that forward line had to be relieved


over in that forward line had to be relieved every 48 hours when ours are relieved after once you go you sit there so that that means I mean yeah one year means still next tell you next you go on leave or something so if you've gone up you will sit there for three four months whatever is your thing that is the hardiness of our troops their troops are to be relieved every 48 Hours 10 people would come up 10 people would go down that was their staying power uh staying power was much more as I said you know when our troops are very fine people Resolute their Hardy they come from a very good you know background and stock they have that nationalistic forward and they will do whatever is required did it get impacted uh Sir with uh what happened with uh Santosh Babu did that did that shake the troops uh morale no I don't think uh you know we in fact the Indian army specifically since we have been involved in active operations for a long time especially in


involved in active operations for a long time especially in jnk and in the Northeast we have been suffering casualties so it does every casualty as I said hurts whether casualty we take it in our stride we know that while doing a job something like this is going to happen in jnk also when ID blast take place you do lose 15-20 people at a time has happened in pulwama so you know we are used I will not say we are in your two that would be wrong way of putting it but we know that casualties do occur and when casualties occur it only makes us stronger that we will take retributive action yes we will take revenge for it and and that is the only way that a unit regains its moral by taking that Revenge right and so that that is the reason why you had uh the uh the people from Santosh babu's unit uh involved in the operations which we carried out in these areas absolutely because that is the only way


in these areas absolutely because that is the only way you get your moral back you know it's like when you're horse riding when you fall off a horse you get back on immediately you don't go and hide somewhere else so that is precisely the point best way to get your moral back is to get involved in operation and do a good job is talking about how their troops had to go back down after 48 Hours remember Ajit was time they are six feet tall Chinese soldiers do you remember that and sir we wanted to ask you also on this uh we had discussed in ma'am had discussed now this galwan happened sir the whole world people see like Australia Mongolia every country whosoever is Chinese neighbor they don't fight with them the Chinese create a Hawa and they come they threaten they say we have got this this missile that missile do you think this fight in galwan The Clash in galwan the uh the way our troops gave them a bloody nose uh did


troops gave them a bloody nose uh did this demolish the image of seven feet tall Chinese soldiers in the minds of ass troops as well as internationally I think not only of the pla itself but I feel it diminished the stature of China as a country in the global eyes because after this Clash occurred and we showed that it is possible to stand up to China who tries to bully its smallest Neighbors once we did that I think from Canada to Lithuania to Europe to Philippines everyone actually you know got that feeling that yes if you're fighting for what is correct if you have a principal stand it is possible to they could stand even against China and we don't have to always be cowed down by the might that they try to project I think the asean was also looking in wonderment at that stage quite right uh you know as to how we react because of Chinese aggression in the South China Sea in you know all that that was happening so uh I think there


that that was happening so uh I think there was a lot of focus on the Indian army at that stage Indian army and India is a country we showed India as a country showed to the world yeah that it is possible to take on that neighborhood bully as is the case everywhere whether it is a school bully or a neighborhood bully you have to stand up to him sometime or the other right we showed it can be done but so you feel uh this happened but it has happened a bit late we have given them a long rope we allowed them to for many years we allowed them to encroach inch by inch they yes it may be that happened over a period of time with some things always come to a head sometime or the other so it came to a head at that stage in in 2020. uh Jensen in uh in your first press conference I'm again quoting uh you had written that the Army is rebalancing its deployment and strategy along the western Northern and


its deployment and strategy along the western Northern and Northeastern borders to deal with any kind of threat beat from Pakistan or China earlier the focus was on the Western Front we now feel that both the Western and the northern France are equally important and that's why we are rebalancing quite prophetic I would say that when you talked about rebalancing because for a long time one had kept hearing about the two front wall two front wall and that actually almost happened in 2020. uh so to take from what uh Ajit was saying was it something that we did too late should it have been done earlier no see uh these analysis of likely threats and how they're going to manifest is once again a continuous process it's not that you suddenly one day do that based on various inputs that we keep getting based on new acquisitions which are made by the enemy we also get input some new strategies that he is adopting So based on all such things we keep appreciating the likely threats and again those


we keep appreciating the likely threats and again those threats what remedial measures or counter measures we should take and it is in that light that we felt that the threat from our Northern borders is increasing vis-a-vis that offer Western borders and therefore we need to rebalance some forces we've always had plans in place where some troops could go from the Western Front to the Eastern front or vice versa it is a question of where they should be initially deployed it should be they be initially deployed more to the west and go to the east by East I mean East and North as a contingency or there should be against the northern adversary first and go to the West as a continuance so it is that is what is the rebalancing that rather than being more West oriented they become now more North oriented so that's that does not mean that they cannot come back to the West yeah because that's a continuous threat continuously it's not we cannot keep evaluating but suppose tomorrow something changes on


cannot keep evaluating but suppose tomorrow something changes on the Western Front we might revert to how what it was earlier but you can also be sure that now see there's also this thing that we never talk about China as dushman Mulk but it has come to a situation where if this continuous uh engagement uh with weapons this continuous injuries which are happening it is a dushman Mulk so if you have dushman on both Northern and Northern western eastern fronts they can collaborate and it can become a single front wall like maybe geographically different but actually one dushman if they are collaborating like this so in the analysis of threat we will always have to prioritize and I think that kind of Pride right prioritization we do everywhere in our personal lives also we prioritize so similarly we have to prioritize which is the more important threat which is the more dangerous one and and of course we focus more on that and less on the other and now now nobody has any doubts that China is


now now nobody has any doubts that China is the Enemy Number One I think that's been the case not now but for many years I think our Former Defense Minister had also said that George Fernandez more than two decades ago that China is the enemy so they're nothing new it is just that we have become more cognizant of that fact and we are more open to talking about it rather than keeping it in the shadows and not mentioning it um right now even as uh rakshamantri speaking in Parliament before that he was briefed by the service Chiefs um tell us this is I'm talking about December 9th attack which has happened and he was briefed by the service Chiefs and we've also heard that they've come with they had come with drones um not just clubs but they had come with drones to shoot the entire yeah to film the entire thing maybe not weaponized drones but maybe their these drones were there to see forward how many troops we have or I don't


forward how many troops we have or I don't know I mean there could be cameras operated from those drones you would have briefed uh similarly the raksha mantri what happens in these kind of briefings uh give us a sense of how this takes place like when when you inform the civilian leadership now obviously we have to give a very fair and clear picture us of what has happened and we try not to hide any facts and if something has happened like in galwan we suffered casualties we were straight away we said yes we have suffered the casualties we did not try to hide it like the Chinese have done and they refused to declare it now they've declared four now they agreed to a fifth one but the numbers are much higher so we give a very clear picture we give an assessment of what has happened an assessment of what is likely to happen in the future the next and in the future I mean in the short term and in the long term and based


the short term and in the long term and based on that assessment what we need to do so that is how it generally transpires and each service gives their own view on and said on that incident of course in an incident like young say which is more Land Based and very very localized they probably would not be so much inputs from say the Navy hmm but obviously their inputs will also be taken into consideration and so you were talking about assessment so in your assessment when you gave it to the government a post girl one what was the assessment of Chinese casualties by the Indian army sir well I have time and again said that I will not like to get into a numbers game so the number of casualties is not important what is important is the fact that they suffered casualties because all along over the last two decades not only with India but with Bhutan in with Nepal they are also encroaching in the South China Sea they've been encroaching they have a free pass free pass and


encroaching they have a free pass free pass and never has anybody challenged them and they never ever suffered casualties for them it was a very low cost no cost option without doing anything and without suffering any any casualties they were gaining whatever you know the aim is by being achieved this is the first time that they got the jatka and that is what has forced them to reassess this way of doing things so that is what is important the numbers are not important whether it is one or 40. so sir it doesn't matter and it's a jatka which has happened without an International Coalition or anything against them how do you feel you are the Army Chief how do you feel when some Bollywood actors try to say hi from galwan how how do you react to them that's no I think we should just brush it off and not take too much or not give it you know more you comment or give Credence to it the more it remains in the Limelight I've always been


more it remains in the Limelight I've always been of the view that such people are free to talk and comment and all these comments the more you ignore them the sooner they die a natural death rather than reacting you react it remains in the Limelight so just let it pass that is one way of looking at itself but there is also narrative building that happens and I will go into the balakot incident I mean balakot by and large was probably an effos operation so but still I mean you you would be aware that what had happened was that you know we had struck but Pakistan somehow got the lead over us as far as the narrative is concerned they took troops uh they sorry they took diplomats and they took people around and they said you know that that there was nothing that the thing is we didn't have pictures we didn't have images and then the narrative was that and then people in our own country started believing that narrative right because then it's not just


that narrative right because then it's not just ordinary civilians who were listening in or looking at the social media there were people from reporters and all who were culling stories from that uh from that so sometimes ignoring doesn't work right no in in this case it was just one person one individual so that's a different matters but on the larger scale it is also important to win the information War right and that has become very important in these times of you know interconnectivity in social media it is not enough to win the war on the ground as you mentioned you have to win the perception World perception also and for that I think there's a hollow whole new ball game and which has to be done at a much higher and at a national level it is not something which will be done at the ground level that a battalion Commander is saying something so it will have to be pieced together and that narrative built and add to show that we have actually won the war on ground so both


we have actually won the war on ground so both both these things have become very important as journalists let me tell you because uh you know Decades of EX of this experience which Ajit and I both together if we would have is the same thing that you we get information from and not just this incident but any other incident also you get the information and then the forge wants to run with it the civilian Administration doesn't want to run for and I am talking about years ago also okay now the American president is coming so even if we would have won something on the ground don't report on it don't say it or we would have lost on the ground maybe we've lost a few men on a you know in a terror incident a forges lost but so don't run with it because you have a visit or you have an international event which is happening which India is hosting or whatever or like in the recent Pastor that don't report on this matter because we have the eighth round of talks


matter because we have the eighth round of talks happening don't report on this matter because ninth round of talks is happening so you know in when you're doing this uh cyborg it has to be coordinated at the highest level because only the highest level do you know all the other ramifications because a statement made at a lower level should not Boomerang on you or rebound with us say a different country or a different you know Ally so therefore it has to be coordinated at a higher level and perhaps then we have to accept that they know more than what we do and therefore the decision is the correct one you mean the in the sense of political establishment or or the civilian whatever yes the not not the the bureaucracy I won't say the political establishment the government of the day it is a government we we are we are responsible to Parliament right not to a particular party or in various Parliament decides that is the government of the day so government of the day are more


of the day so government of the day are more seized you know they are getting inputs from so many places they're getting inputs from so many missions abroad they're getting inputs from the rnaw they know what is maybe there is some trade deal which has been struck in you know a statement May jeopardize that deal so there are so many facets which you and me may not be aware of okay after all we are bound in our own domains right there is somebody who knows all a larger larger picture so right we have to accept that make that they know what is best for the country right you know when I'm going to go back to Bala code because uh you know uh one viewers which I had told you was that when you the narrative Pakistan got ahead of us in that respect and uh there was this thing that have we probably not struck a Target which was significant or you know what has happened uh there was one view which I was told that uh at that time maybe it was


was told that uh at that time maybe it was prudent not to because um you're dealing with a country which has uh which is a rogue nation and they have nuclear weapons and they could they could just you know escalate the whole situation so maybe it was significant to hit the enemy but not provoke the Enemy by encouraging a next action uh from them could that be true no we hit them and they did react they did come the next day and that is when that we lost one aircraft also when Commander abhinandan was also shot down so it's not that our action did not provoke a reaction but once again we have to see the larger picture the larger picture is that we have demonstrated our will to strike again whether we struck any number of casualties the number of terrorists who were killed is not important the fact is that we have said that if you do something to us we will do something to you and that will be proportionate or even more than what you have done


proportionate or even more than what you have done to us exactly that is the message that is gone across and which is the important message yeah the disproportionate is also possible also possible yeah that is the mess as I say let's not get into the numbers that is not even the larger picture and the larger message that has gone that is messaging strategic signaling that you know don't don't try these stunts because you will suffer more than we do so um I'm going to get to Pakistan now oh you want to still stay I have with God I I want to still stick with this uh so you talked about giving jhatka to China in galwan that was a big jatka for them but you uh this was June in uh 2020 August last week you gave a bigger jhatkar to them in also please tell us about that sir what did we do yes so actually this when I said that we you know took counter measures this is part of those counter measures and as I was


is part of those counter measures and as I was saying that you know it's always the Chinese have been coming and probing here and there and we have always been reactive this is the first time that we should we can also do the same thing competitive measures proactive measures and we can put them on the back foot and again that you know they were taken by surprise now everybody asks us that you had taken away surprise where they're not taken by surprise and how they were taken by surprise in spite of being face to face that means we were that much better that under their nose we could do that and take an offensive action and go and sit on places where we fought such bloody battles in 1962. yeah we have back there that humiliation of 1962. yes and we were right sitting there and looking down on their garage and at moldo and they were really shaken up they never expected they were always thought we were defensive Force they never thought we can go on the


defensive Force they never thought we can go on the offensive also and that is what is now prompted all that infrastructure development that they're doing now they are scared of us that we will come into their territory we have taken right in the 60s we have taken offensive action 69 was it no that was again on the borderline for the first time they are thinking and rightly so that they should be worried that we will go in and not that only they will come or it will battle or only be at the border can you can you tell us sir what actually happened what what all did we do in that uh that is the uh Southern Bank of uh it is little more than the Southern Bank see they had initially come on the Northern Bank sir then we also appreciated that they will try and come on the heights of the Southern Bank which they did and then it was a race between the two of us that who will get to those Heights faster so at some places we reached for


Heights faster so at some places we reached for some places they reached us so it was sort of 50 50. but having appreciated that we said come let us go further south of the spangur Gap and take these kailash ranges and these two passes of rich in line resangler which they did not expect they thought we will keep it localized to the North and South Bank but then we when we went further south and as I said they did not expect that we will take this kind of a offensive action and so this is angla uh uh why were they not occupied at that moment uh are they on our side of LSC or the lse runs along these passes okay and therefore both sides do not occupy them okay by Mutual that agreement that you will remain on your side and we will remain on our side and Lac itself is not manned and we occupied these unlike the RC with Pakistan where we sit eyeball to eyeball and we occupied both these past we occupied is there any


we occupied both these past we occupied is there any rethink to that agreement uh no not as of now I think it is to death in good stead these incidents which have happened as I mentioned will I think reinforce the point that a stable border is you know conducive to peace and peace obviously leads to growth and development so by and by I think we will be a realization that a stable border and or resolving this border question is to our mutual benefit right um for our listeners and viewers we are running this episode on the week of Vijay Devas uh those who might not be in India you may not be aware of the significance of the day 16th December 1971 is observed as Vijay Divas uh the day India helped in the liberation of Bangladesh a decisive War uh when Pakistani troops surrender to the Indian army um gensap I want to ask you about that 1971 uh surrender there's this when you were Chief uh when we visited you uh Ajit


you were Chief uh when we visited you uh Ajit is always mentions that that there's that painting uh behind yeah you know on that wall where you used to meet right uh all the all the foreign Chiefs including the Saudis bangladeshis all the Chiefs who came to meet in in that office uh in that Lounge Chiefs Lounge uh the picture would come with the surrender ceremony in the backdrop and uh every time the pakistanis would react very that that painting behind you how significant was that to you sir as as you know somebody who joined as a Young Man uh how significant is Vijay Devas no it is definitely the finest moment in the annuals of History not only of ours but never before as any army got such a resounding victory in such a small space of time so it was our as I said in our history of the Indian army and of the country it is a it has a finest moment and that picture captures it all when the Pakistan Army general nyazi


picture captures it all when the Pakistan Army general nyazi surrendered to jagjit Singh Arora and you did mention you know that little propaganda in IW has to be done so that is a way of doing it having that photo in the background with all the time we are telling everyone see this is what we are and this is what we can do without saying anything I said did any of the visiting Chiefs ask you that what is this who are these gentlemen no we used to tell them who they are okay in the Chiefs Lounge but that similar painting is there in the Army battle honors Miss yeah and when we host visiting delegations we exp and not only this painting the paintings of other battles are also there we take them around and explain every battle in each battle the pakistanis have been given a bloody nose so this is the Pakistan uh Army chief he has said that the 1971 defeat that you mentioned that it was a political defeat and not a military uh defeat


a political defeat and not a military uh defeat that the surrender was not something which happened because the Army it was the the politicians who decided it what do you have to say to that well it you cannot say that is not a military defeat after all 93 000 prisoners of War they're there and that is the magnitude of the surrender which did not which has not happened since World War II when the Germans surrendered that Stalingrad and that is the magnitude so you can cannot wish away history or try to rewrite it because the facts and figures are well known for so many years the records are there we have the names of all 93 000 people who are with us so how can you say that they did not surrender they don't believe in the names uh gentlem you know that even in kargil they didn't believe and it took them a long time to accept you know that uh that they didn't even take back the bodies and they didn't accept that their people


the bodies and they didn't accept that their people had died would you how do you that's a mercenary Army on the other side what are the what is the difference between the two armies between the Chinese Army you know both now so tell us the difference I think that you know we should not discount any opposition if you underestimate your opposition or try to and play them down then you likely to get surprised so we should always look at them as a professional Army and at the unit level nobody likes to lose so at the unit level they will also try their best to win so we should not you know go in with over confidence that we are you know refried for anything like that but the whole team has to get welded together and as the Army you have to know that you have the backing of your country you have the backing of your government the the will of the people and so on I think that is where we are at a great advantage I keep saying whole of nation approach


great advantage I keep saying whole of nation approach whole of nation approach that is precisely the point we have as a nation the political establishment all the other Ministries and the bureaucrats the military establishment or population our population which has so much regard and appreciation for our armed forces that is our greatest strength they always rise up to the occasion whenever they need demand and they it is their love and affection which keeps us going that when we are at the border we know that our you know citizens are with us and that is what makes us strong I think I don't know how true that is on the other side so you can only speak for myself so you you say that they're not a Riff Raff I agree that they're not a riffraff force of course not they've kept us on the run in Kashmir for so many years uh they're not a refractor it's the only army in the world which has like that defy Pakistan they have terrorists as the