who could be Primus into Paris first among equals in terms of being able to coordinate and bring together the opposition which a democracy needs which the Prime Minister himself says that our democracy must have and after her dramatic Victory in West Bengal for a third time we felt that she has the fire the energy the belief of perhaps scaling up the TMC even perhaps with the new name a new constitution on a let's say a wider level than just Bengal oh really but uh a new name that was that was I mean in the sense that the TMC is was largely a Bengal Centric sure but Mamta G's personal uh image was I think larger than just a regional leader so how could we leverage that okay in a democratic way and actually when I joined the truth I had not gone to join us and this is a very interesting story because perhaps I am saying it for the first time publicly and I say that's good respect and regard and admiration for her warmth I went


and regard and admiration for her warmth I went to call on her on her one of her visits to Delhi and she said to me pavanji party so I was non-committed she said then she said and she went inside because she's a very spontaneous and affectionate person and came out with the shawl which is okay and she pushed around my shoulder okay you were there no no I mean and then a photograph was taken and to be honest at some level she knew that I was thinking of how to reconfigure the opposition where she could play a pivotal role but I had not joined the TMC okay and then she said after the meeting was over I'll see you off to the gate to the car when I went there with her there were 50 press people and she said pavanji and she was even more kind after two three weeks she made me the vice president of the party but over a course of time I realized for the variety of reasons that Mamta ji's Energies


variety of reasons that Mamta ji's Energies required to be in terms of the opposition to her in Bengal in terms of the needs of the TMC uh the vision she has the vision Abhishek has uh that she is perhaps by compulsion very Bengal Centric I'm not saying that she's not recognized as a national leader but very Bengal Centric and in a Bengal Centric party I didn't see a role for myself so with great politeness I resigned so um of course everybody talks about opposition unity and my personal view is right now it's it's a phantom concept it's not happening you've been working on this behind the scenes looking for somebody who could lead it who could be there everybody knows that there's a whole bunch of people whether it's Sita ramji or you or PK or hunting for this leader so when you join the TMC the idea was that oh okay there seems to be some kind of Meeting of Minds that she would lead it but


of Meeting of Minds that she would lead it but as you say that she's very Bengal Centric and uh do you see nitish ji because you know see uh look at it it wasn't as if when we see the earlier experiments it wasn't as a VP Singh had a national image it wasn't as a gujjal Saab had or or David gowda or chandrashekhar or Charan Singh you know none of them had this pan-india appeal but our politics is such in our country it happens do you see nitish as a factor who would be acceptable for this pan-india image because now it's pre-election positioning because that's what elections have become now it's personality oriented do you see nitish having the capability let's take the nitish ji and then I'll talk of the opposite sure see nitish ji has been chief minister of Bihar for 17 years he is a Grassroots politician from a very humble background who's risen to the top in Bihar has been a cabinet


to the top in Bihar has been a cabinet minister at the center in fact in atal bihari vajpayee's government uh has been an MP in both the Lok Sabha and the Raj Sabha so any comes from the Hindi heart belt in terms of a large state in the in the heart belt not that that is an essential prerequisite uh he also has that certain seniority whereby without being a threat to any other leader he could if he so desires uh make the attempt the seniority and the experience of trying to weave together some kind of pan-indian coordination with a larger opposition ah let us call it a greater acceptability Factor he has good relations with almost every political he was in he met with kcr with kejriwal with Rahul I mean you know are they all on board not the way you can build opposition Unity I always say Smitha that what we need is not arithmetic Unity what we need is organic Unity which is an organic Unity based on strategy coordination minimum coupon program


an organic Unity based on strategy coordination minimum coupon program one candidate from the opposition against the ruling BJP uh a certain Narrative of its own and not only criticism of the BJP and an acceptable face not necessarily the supreme leader but who in a way acts as a PO for the opposition so this way just meeting people is not the way an opposition unity and for remember we have very little time for 2024. it didn't happen even for the presidential election vice president is not the word this is not the way yeah right now if you ask me I'm not very optimistic for the opposition the reason is very simple it is scattered it is in silos it is an opposition which is at war with itself let us give you two three examples the congress party opposes the ah perhaps even more than the BJP right uh in West Bengal the principal opposition to the largest party against the TMC was the BJP and the principal opposition was the TMC but the Congress and the cpin


was the TMC but the Congress and the cpin yeah fought against freedomur let's take Telangana kcr is the obvious opponent not of the Congress now their principle is the BJP but the Congress is fighting kcr rather than uniting so just by speaking or meeting on a stage and holding your hands up you are not going to get opposition Unity it has to be a radically out of the box program so pavanchi don't you think that um with the Congress what happens is it's an existential crisis if they don't fight kcr right agreed that it's primarily uh BJP versus uh TRS in Telangana but if they don't fight kcr look at what he's saying it's an opposition United opposition minus the Congress that's what kcr says so they have to fight the TRS when it comes to uh West Bengal can you tell the Congress already they've seeded space it's gone they're no longer there in the Reckoning way so everywhere you and with the app they've gone


so everywhere you and with the app they've gone in Congress in Punjab so if they don't fight these Regional parties or semi-regional parties it's an existential crisis for them angry yeah let me say three things and I know Jed arms view or that of the Congress leadership for which he speaks is about Congress not seeding space right uh and I completely understand that point of view Congress is the mother of all political parties in India and there was a time when like a banyan tree it had Roots across the country and therefore its desire to once again resurrect that past is understandable however there are in my view there are two combination of a dual strategy one is the long term where the Congress is entirely entitled over in due course to resurrect Itself by making the internal reforms which the party deems to be essential the second is the short-term strategy 2024 2024 where without diluting or compromising upon your larger goal in terms of the imminent challenge you a


goal in terms of the imminent challenge you a dovetail your larger Ambitions with the imperative short-term priorities so I believe in with great respect that in the Congress they they need to see this aspect because when the opposition is fragmented or divided it divides the votes of the opposition and the only beneficiary is the BJP third Point let me say to you and again with great respect to KCRG I don't think you can have an opposition without the Congress now why do I say it I see it because there are at least 200 seats parliamentary where one on one where the Congress is the principal opponent of the BJP now no other regional party is in a position to fight the BJP so ideally a reformed or a vitalized revitalized congress fights those elections because that's the Bonanza for the BJP BJP has a strike rate of 96 against the Congress so either the Congress or the entire opposition unites to strengthen the Congress as the principal opponent to the BJP in


Congress as the principal opponent to the BJP in these 200 seats if you have a non-congress opposition that's really ambitious can you imagine today if you or Sita ramji or anybody who's been working towards an opposition Unity for now over five years I think if I'm not wrong is to get kcr Sharad pavar Mamta akhilesh mayawati I who have I left out tejaswi uh all of them to get together and say okay let's make Congress as a stronger party to take on the BJP even the 150 hundred twenty hundred and seventy seats to strengthen because we are not there so let's do this do you see any of them swallowing their egos because it's become such an egotistical thing now in the in the opposition and that's the reason they're fragmented so that's why I said I'm not very optimistic but I that does not mean that it's not doable I'll tell you why politics is dynamic let me give you two examples 1977. or before from


me give you two examples 1977. or before from the emergency in 75 till 77 the opposition was rudderless I mean there were leaders different parties ashram in Patna who woke up and became a cementing Gloop for an opposition I am not saying in terms of very successful experiment but it was good enough to decimate the congress party post the emergency let us take another example which seems even more Invincible Rajiv Gandhi comes in 84 with 404 MPS I mean he seemed to be there forever and in 87 eight people meet in a drawing room in Delhi and you know who they are will be saying around nehru ramdhan and so on so and out of nowhere a VP Singh effort middle class Messiah to take on yes I'm not saying I'm not saying it will happen and Let Me Not For a Moment devalue the popularity of narend modiji he is right now undoubtedly do you forget the Towering political figure in the country do you remember the Anna movement also


in the country do you remember the Anna movement also so when Anna Azari came everybody I mean not everybody but there was a section which thought that okay here's another person like a JP you know who could but he he fizzled out just like VP Singh fizzled out at one point of time now there's this talk that could it be nitish but there is one lot which mandalization of politics agitation politics based politics [Music] no there is a serious challenge now I'm not saying it's Nick bundle politics or let us say caste cohesion on certain issues of interest to those castes it is a factor but also we must understand that today that mandal instrument is being used against a political party which is three or four great intrinsic strengths which is the BJP first they have a very popular leader secondly they have a strong quarter and organization if you combine it with the RSS card also thirdly it's a 24 into 7 electoral machine yeah and fourthly they have whether you agree with it


and fourthly they have whether you agree with it or not a narrative which essentially consists of three or four elements Hindu politics hyper nationalism and I must say partly successful welfarism where targeted help has reached the poorest sections of society so now if mandal politics by itself is pitted against this it's not enough you have to do something more so this Congress isra is supposedly that to Galvanize uh the kadas and once the Cutters are galvanized then fix a narrative maybe a year or two late in doing this but then there was kovid or whatever but that is the idea that the Congress has that uh you know that they need to understandably so that get their cars but uh and you see at every point of time they have to battle a a party which as you say has very strong card or has a narrative knows how to take on the opposition and things and the opposition looks divided now there's another line which says that this pre-election uh Unity moves


another line which says that this pre-election uh Unity moves is a lost game let's not do that it happens after the election these this fragmented parties get together and we've seen UPA one upa2 it works so let's do that let's all get like our our own little little groups let let kcr get his let Mamta get hers so once it's all done then like you had a mulayam or like you had a hurricane Singh surjit getting together and post-election now I frankly Smitha I'm not in favor of mere Jordan politics if the opposition does not put together a compelling narrative which appeals to people merely and series of arithmetical permutations and combinations will not create a convincing political entity as opposed to the BJP it will not okay so there are legitimate discontents the opposition has not put its act together I tell you price rise it's hurting people I know for a fact the middle class has been reduced by almost 22 percent the poor have become


reduced by almost 22 percent the poor have become poorer we live in a very unequal Society where one percent of the rich own disproportionately the wealth and assets of this while the poor have gone become poorer there are no doubt achievements of the current government but in spite of that the global hunger index India has gone down rather than up so there are legitimate discounts if you were to write your middle class book again you would revisit it and maybe write a different story I'll say I'll tell you why I may write a different story because I know that Mr naren modi's strategy to begin with in his Ascent to the Pinnacle of the BJP was to First influence the middle class because it has a ripple effect across the country the middle class is a pan-indian class and he did that most successfully as a strong decisive leader with a vision against the lackluster and somewhat unimpressive performance of upa2 so he emerged and the middle class loves a messiah and he


and the middle class loves a messiah and he came as one now if the middle class is disillusioned the BJP needs to worry because you can only do so much of hindutva people will go with hindut because I think there are reasons for a certain degree of Hindu backlash in my latest book The Greatest great Hindu civilization where I analyze those reasons and I accept the validity of some of them and I cannot on another occasion or whenever you want go through each of them so there is a resonance to a certain reclaiming of Hindu Pride but you differentiate between but I think the same Hindus don't want that don't want it instability Law and Order situations and uh because Hindus are not jihadis in fact most citizens in this country except for for a certain Fringe which exists in all religion want to get on with their lives you'll be surprised during the height of the ayodhya agitation in 1990 to the traders of faizabad and


in 1990 to the traders of faizabad and ayodhya went on strike I have mentioned it in my book being Indian and when they were asked they said yeah so that dhanda bit is there everywhere it was there in Gujarat it was there in so those who are the I'll tell you when we were when this whole ayodhya movement happened and the ratyatras were out and on and I saw one of our television producers we've gone to dinner to his house and he had this sticker on his door which said and I was like it was a way of life for all of us right we never felt the need to say it but that comes from this sense of entitlement because our Hinduism or our being a Hindu was never in threat but he was a he was a kashmiri Hindu yeah his identity as a Hindu was under threat for for a long long time so he needed to say it so I understand where so for me it was a shocker and I


where so for me it was a shocker and I understood this this entitled Hindu that I was who never felt her Hindu or entitled upper caste that I never understood the mandal agitation I had to ask like what is because why we were Urban we were Cosmopolitan we never felt nobody asked us and I never this easy uh uppercast life that one leads where caste doesn't affect me it didn't affect me it's only when the mandal agitation happened that I realized how entitled my life was how cushy my life was that I didn't face any atrocity so I couldn't understand that right the same way till that a hindutva movement happened with the rathyatra I didn't understand the angst of the Hindus who were under that thread similarly I can't even begin to understand or I couldn't till I saw the Muslims being you know atrocities on them so unless you experience that to to say that oh this is uncalled for anyway let me now


oh this is uncalled for anyway let me now that I'm talking about that I have to speak to you because you're essentially a delhiwala what do you have to say to this whole latians Delhi Khan Market gang because you are you are a card Market gang I'm a Khan Market gang right we love to go to the card Market we love to go to Khan market and shop and eat and have discussions so do you feel that okay maybe they are right we are entitled we were this Khan Market gang without a doubt without a doubt let me tell you when you refer you give you can give it any label latience can't Market gang the fact is that there is a small but minuscule class which are the beneficiaries of inherited power and privilege it also is a fact that they are vociferous in their views but visibly cut off from the mainstream of life of the common masses outside the Metropolis thirdly it's a class which in a way inherited power from the


a class which in a way inherited power from the departing British although the country won Independence the immediate beneficiaries were those who were already positioned to take advantage of Independence their English was good their fluency in English was good they had been to good schools their parents were well to do and therefore the opportunities that they got were available to them without competition when I gave the foreign service exam you could give the exam only in English yeah out of my batch of the Foreign Service there were 10 boys from Saint Stephens it's unfair you have to democratically empower others now the problem with latians is and the Khan Market gang is that they're so convinced about the validity of their point of view that I call them reflex liberists liberalists which was just speaking about Hinduism for instance they are strong Believers in secularism but they have not read the ramayana except as a comic they believe that you know they know Shakespeare more than kalidas so I'm just saying that


more than kalidas so I'm just saying that they are cut off from the life impulses of the country a lot in the mea let me tell you this one example I'm interrupting you but there was uh we're going to cover the EU Summit and yashwanzana was the EM external affairs minister and uh vajpaiji was the Prime Minister and uh the briefing happened like you always used to do as XP uh heads with the external publicity whoever was the jsxp I don't remember exactly who it was but he's then gave the questions and the question answer session continued and it was Mr yashwan Sinha answering all the questions and so at one point of time I I said and the entire media team which was covering it all these English speaking people who cover and mind you I was part of that they giggled and they laughed oh come on you can translate it why do you need that right so then the jsxp said challenge so I went up to yashwan Sinha and


challenge so I went up to yashwan Sinha and I said that both but you come from a Hindi band do you understand that there are Hindi channels which will not use this won't use this uh because it's too much of a pain EU Summit European Union because of whatever happened at that Summit there was some incident but no I don't elaborate but I even politicians let me tell you when they reached that age when they reached that uh you know become an external affairs minister forget their Roots it's only now you know when people have realized that we need to be aware I to learned how to speak in Hindi only when I realized that I'm not reaching my audience it's not my language I'm a South Indian but I learned how to speak fluently in Hindi as much as I can because of this this whole latians gang Khan Market it is a reality isn't it indeed and let me tell you in my case I went to South Columbus yeah


in my case I went to South Columbus yeah exactly I went to Saint Xavier's I went to Saint Stephens I could have become a saint but at the end of it but I am proud that today or even from much earlier I can speak fluently in Hindi write in Hindi I have translated Urdu but I had once a boss in mea who tell me on the intercom I say old chap there is an HMT type of guy here Hindi medium type and once he even used an expression called um2 and then it's called umt Uh do medium type you know can you deal with him so this kind of elitism you believe very well I know exactly who you mean but I'm not going to say the name well this kind of elitism cut off from the reality of India which by the way and this is my foot now doesn't mean that whatever the so-called latin's gang or carmont could gang believes in is wrong but they need to develop greater authenticity credibility in


but they need to develop greater authenticity credibility in voicing it right otherwise it appears that they are in a sense prisoners of a past which and of a value system with of with which they they are unable to interpret for the masses so tell me this you know you've written an article also I read recently about uh about the bureaucracy uh writing letters suddenly finding spine or the lack of it whatever you might I mean you have two views on that about because obviously you will appreciate letters written by a certain set of bureaucrats against a certain government and a certain set of bureaucrats who are writing against those Bureau grads what is happening it never used to happen right bureaucrats never got together they were so divided as a lot now suddenly these letter letter words are happening no no because I think the most I mean unless they get more involved and I respect their views a group of bureaucrats supporting something or a group of bureaucrats


supporting something or a group of bureaucrats criticizing something I think I I respect it but it contributes little and I think a certain greater degree of activism needs to happen because what happens a group of bureaucrats right a letter critical of the government the government collects its own supporters among bureaucrats and they write a counterlet and so it's a pretty sterile kind of uh war going on Chambers don't you think that they are in Echo Chambers but I know that many of those who write this letter are people who cannot become part of active politics but they have their own views a certain conviction and they believe that certain things need to be preserved or certain things need to be defended and I respect them for that but I think what we need is a greater effort see not everybody can write columns not everybody goes on television so if they get together and write a letter is that okay is that fine I think it's a democracy people can write letters sure


think it's a democracy people can write letters sure okay and and I appreciate that okay my column which you referred to was about what happens to officers and bureaucrats when they are in service and I don't make a great virtue of this my father was in the ICS and and to take a stand which they believe to be correct even if they felt that the political Master may not like it one in a million maybe you know came to them far more easily it's a small service it was a service which still was independent and I know of politicians from the stories I heard from my father who respected the officer for that because they would rather have someone who gives free and fair advice than someone who's a ah reflects yes man but today it's not just today no pavanji I I mean I've also seen it I mean we're all products of the same system but it's always been there those bureaucrats who who defied or forget about even Defiance even advised uh a politician


forget about even Defiance even advised uh a politician in a certain manner didn't get Plum postings and didn't have uh post retirement benefits jobs it's a system which has continued all through where is that any change perhaps it was always there but the degree of uh the the gradual compromise of the bureaucrat where he has become an accessory to the politician because both are beneficiaries the politician is happy he's got a bureaucrat who endorses what he thinks the bureaucrat is happy for the dividends of this kind of blind blind loyalty everybody is Happy okay so I mean I think it's a question of degree I just like while I'm concluding you you mentioned in one of your articles that it's time to introspect the moral fiber of the country um tell me when when you say this like as parents uh we expect it out of our children right uh our parents expected it out of us but in practice where does that come about because you know it's many say that this whole


about because you know it's many say that this whole in politics morality is something which is which is dead long ago and it's it's an overrated uh virtue do you do you think that's the case I I must say that uh I can't say I'm aware of the inherent Corruptions and immorality which some people justify as impossible to differentiate from politics there is money power there is unaccountable money which in my view is the root of all corruption in the country but that apart I think the young in this country Smitha needs some role model a role model who stands for a certain idealism principles personal integrity and is willing to demonstrate it because otherwise the feeling grows foreign and that I feel is bad for a country which is not a country it's a civilization it goes back to the dawn of time in terms of Ethics in terms of idealisms in terms of principles in terms of conviction there are few civilizations that can match this country and for it to lose


that can match this country and for it to lose its moral Anchorage of the difference between right and wrong in my view is a tragedy so do we expect it out of any one individual and does that individual become like a religious Guru a political Guru a spiritual Guru do we seek that what do we seek when we seek this moral fiber to somebody to enhance or to bring out morality in society what do we do it's difficult because I realize people and politicians are people also and they operate within a certain system where the end becomes far more important than the means let me be honest however a nation which is bereft of idealism uh and I can only quote again it's a cliched example of what Mahatma Gandhi by the sheer didn't of his personality and personal example kind of bequeath to this country at least for the initial years after our independence a certain let's say reticence as far as wealth goes a certain awareness of the number of people


goes a certain awareness of the number of people who still are poor certain ability to say no to personal gain at the cost of public good these were value systems and over a time if everything becomes transactional where are those young on this country who shall be world leaders at one time I think it's bad for them that's all I feel thank you very much for speaking with us pavanji it's been an absolute pleasure now the pleasure is mine thank you so much hope you enjoyed listening or watching uh to this interview with Mr Pawan Varma on Ani podcast with Smitha prakash do like or subscribe to whichever platform you've seen it or heard it in namaste thank you [Music]


as my grandmother would use a word for him he's a misna is arvind kejr he is the biggest misna that you have to watch out for and I remember in 2008 going to modi's house in gandhinagar after which I wrote an article so it's all published material where I said one day this man will be the Prime Minister I may be allowed any political ideology I can practice any religion I can eat what I want who is someone else to tell me as long as it's not illegal the tragedy is the left believes that indian-ness is nationalistic and nationalism is right-wing they forget that patriotism is the last Refuge of this government not nationalism Namaste jaihin welcome to Ani podcast with Smitha prakash today's guest is Mr suhail Seth he's a brand strategist he's a writer author uh you've seen him on television debates he talks about every subject under the sun IL is No Holds Barred kind of a speaker he will say the most


Barred kind of a speaker he will say the most outrageous things on television on camera he believes in what he speaks there was only this one short period where he kind of didn't talk about and even to date uh he will not speak about it when he came under Cloud to some extent because of the Mito allegations against him and since it is uh you know he doesn't want to speak about it uh he agreed to do this interview with the uh with the understanding that we will not talk about this issue and he will speak about it when the time is right he says thank you very much for coming to our studio suhail um nobody will believe that this is the first time I'm meeting you officially I mean I must reveal this little bit that I remember when I was in college you were senior to me you were in Calcutta I was in Delhi and uh we were going for an inter College competition and we got to know that oh there's a team coming in from


to know that oh there's a team coming in from Calcutta go foreign we were like absolute mince meat and when I saw our teams competing I said no chance this guy's going to win everything and that's what happening these days when we see you on television is like doesn't matter what the topic is you just make mincemeat about everybody but you know uh thanks to Delhi colleges I got my first motorcycle I bought my first maruti in those days Deluxe because of the weddings these were the only colleges which paid cash except for Saint Stephen's Rich gave you book vouchers otherwise everyone was paying cash but you let me start from the beginning your quintessentially a Calcutta boy you take great pride in talking about uh you being you know from Calcutta the the love that you have for that City uh we'll come to the Delhi aspect later tell us about your life in Calcutta so I was born uh in Calcutta and my grandfather was one of the


in Calcutta and my grandfather was one of the first ever Indians to do a joint venture with Roche Pharmaceuticals uh you know the Swiss farmer Pharma company and he had a factory in barrackpore and then the daxolite movement began and when we were growing up so I was all I was seven years old 1970. and my grandfather's closest friend was Phil Marshall manekshaw so at that time general manager was the gocnc Eastern command and he told my grandfather we're talking about the 70s now 70s he told my grandfather who was called gangaram he says gangram move him out of Calcutta and send him a boarding school so in 71 the year of the Bangladesh Liberation War I was packed off to sin Joseph's in anythal but Calcutta is what gave me the the anchoring and which I tell all young people the only difference between Calcutta and other cities is they don't care who you are how much you own how much you earn as long as you can


own how much you earn as long as you can do two things you can speak well and you can be interesting and obviously if you're a foodie it's it's the icing on the cake and we were encouraged to speak to speak out to speak against the establishment I remember when I came back to Calcutta from nainital uh the school principal in lamartia was accused of theft of cameras and you know I Rose in the assembly and we created a huge Ruckus and my school time was taken him you know the house captain Thai got that but we didn't care so also at that time remembers whether I you know you're obviously much younger but in those days theater was the elixir of life so I started doing plays at the age of 12. so by the time I finished with the Calcutta leg I had already done about 167 plays Indira Gandhi had banned Bhutto by Ice johar yeah ice Jordan auditioned me in Bombay and when she banned it I went


in Bombay and when she banned it I went to Jyoti Babu I never knew him didn't know him at all both of us students went to him and I said Mr Basu you run West Bengal how can Mrs Gandhi stop a play from being staged he says I'm giving you a permission you stage the play so we were growing up Smitha in environment which allowed you to challenge which allowed you to disagree without being disagreeable and it allowed you the fortitude with which you could face the world only because you had knowledge to back you up but now in in today's India or today's world I wouldn't say just India it's all vocism it's everything has to be politically right you say one word this way or that way it could be either an fir against you or the cancer culture do you agree with that that we are in a very difficult phase yeah and you know I have to say two things here Narendra Modi was my briefing client along with jaitly when I


was my briefing client along with jaitly when I was doing the vajpay campaign I've seen Modi in action obviously jaitly sadly passed away and I remember in 2008 going to modi's house in gandhinagar after which I wrote an article so it's all published material where I said one day this man will be the prime minister I have seen the retribution that say the top most person in India has faced because of this canceled culture and vocism the good part is Modi ignores it as he should I was in New York and last week there was an issue related to Charles elmy and people ask you know she's the BJP spokesperson in case people don't I should just ignore it vocism and to the organizers okay look there is always there will always be people who will pursue an agenda of their own there's no bigger intolerance than being intolerant and seemingly coming across a tolerant so the most intolerant people are the ones actually who praise and who you know


are the ones actually who praise and who you know espouse the virtues of tolerance for instance I may be allowed any political ideology I can practice any religion I can eat what I want who is someone else to tell me as long as it's not illegal okay many years ago I was asked on a program why do you smoke I said I smoke cigarettes oh it's bad for your health I said benefits made illegal I'll stop so I have a very clinical view on these matters and I think more the more we succumb the more they will trample you see to say uh don't succumb uh when it's an individual but uh it's become so serious now you anybody uh eats non-vegetarian or eats beef cancel culture you eat the thing is that why do you talk about eating beef but you don't eat talk about pork they have a way of you know there is a there I can well understand one side saying it but the cancel culture is what is scary because the right


the cancel culture is what is scary because the right wing which was a victim of that cancer Culture by the left now says that hey you did this to us so we'll do it to you so while while I understand where they come from where does this end if this is how it's going to be if you recall in those before uh the Modi era before 9 2014 um the reason I say Modi era is because you know the right wing started asserting itself a little bit say between 2014 to 2016 and talked about this whole Khan Market gang and how they had got a kind of a vicious grip over over media over over the think tanks over seminar circuit everything was if you were even mildly right-wing there's this I remember meeting uh an author in um in Washington DC he goes with the Twitter handle called great bong his name is also arnab and he told me that Publishers wouldn't even consider his books at one point of time when he was writing or even his articles


of time when he was writing or even his articles because there was like toned down your right wing otherwise we can't give you op-ed space we like what you write but we can't give you op-ed space this is how it used to be before 2014 I met him before 2014. but sure enough 2014 comes and everything changes he finds a publisher he finds operate space but there is the other thing that happens right the right wing is now out there writing their orbit pieces and they are now critical of the left wing guy so where does this end how does it how does their balance come about so I think that's a brilliant question now let me tell you where it will end nowhere because it's going to perpetuate itself until people like you and I will see through uh the nonsense and we'll be able to sift through the the facade what is happening is as you rightly said there is an assertion this is the era of assertion you're asserting yourself they're asserting themselves


you're asserting yourself they're asserting themselves also remember liberals have a very fine way of assertion they believe in Social ostracization yeah their right wing is still dumb enough not to know how to do it I've always said that there's no point getting upset with the New York Times The Washington Post you either engage with them or you let them be the day you tell someone I'm upset with you means that person is relevant to you irrelevance weather is the worst thing you know many years ago I think it was George Bernard show who says you can love me or hate me but don't be indifferent okay indifference is what the right wing must now learn to practice also I have a sneaky feeling that many a Time the right wing sometimes wants the endorsement of the Liberals yes I agree with you which by the way is suicidal why would you want the endorsement of anyone and I've always said you know I was asked this question uh in New York people said oh


asked this question uh in New York people said oh but Modi I said when I last checked he's won two general elections we are a democracy if you decry him you're actually decrying democracy and you're decrying the Mandate of a large section of Indians who have voted him he has not sneaked through the back door I can understand when say a think tanker or a policy wonk uh says that this is not the India that ought to be because think tankers tend to think they know a lot of what India ought to be what corporate India ought to be what media ought to be they are the ones who are the gyanese what about journalists how can journalists not accept a mandate If Today Rahul Gandhi wins three election state election say he wins Gujarat he wins Himachal Pradesh he wins the next election that happens the state election that happens if he wins that will you continue to will anybody any in their same mind continue to you know say that he's


their same mind continue to you know say that he's abusing nut job he's at this he's a that no he's winning elections which means people will absolutely right so I can't understand journalists who you know say that this is not right but you know um what did you see between 1952 and 2014. you saw political patronage of the worst kind you you replace the Royals with the political royalty and they gave you lodges they took you on Air India one they allowed you their junkets even atalji allowed this yeah what did Modi say he says I don't care and what Modi has done is what these guys needed a long time ago now I'll give you examples I know of several people Smitha who using their journalistic tag or the accreditation was staying in government-sponsored Bungalows and homes without paying a dime why they were close to the past that be you saw there was a political there was a famous so-called famous lady journalist on television who said I make


lady journalist on television who said I make and break cabinets it's another matter that she got 24 people killed uh at the chambers because of her Reckless and insensitive reportage on 26 11 which I was witnessed to so point I'm making is those days of entitlement are over now all that needs to be communicated and this is where this government is perhaps its weakest the individuals in this government are great communicators but the government as a whole is weak why should they even talk about right wing what is Modi done with the Padma Awards he has created a democracy of awards that you and I couldn't imagine earlier people would write to me people would call you up I would always tell people that if I even endorse it you there there's a sure side of nothing you won't get it but you know how the thing worked yes today it is actually a meritocracy yeah but no one talks about it yeah today you can be the poorest of the poor the Communists of the


poorest of the poor the Communists of the common and yet if you've achieved something you will get it you can write six op-ed columns praising Modi but you will not get a Padma award this is what has the message this is the best message that could have gone out I mean I am supremely happy that this has happened but then of course I'm not the you are the brand consultant now you know let me get on to uh before I get on to the corporate sector let me just get on to the political parties you've talked about what what could go what BJP does wrong or what the the government does wrong at the center or even the right wing does wrong what about these single man banned parties right their images of like okay Mamta heads TMC it's be be all an end-all right uh the bsp the SP the kcrs party TRS there's a Stalin in the South there's you know everybody all these Regional parties so-called Regional they're actually single man bad even a


so-called Regional they're actually single man bad even a Sharad pavar is a single manager absolutely right how but in spite of that they get elected they don't even need a branding that one person brand is enough isn't that a little bizarre no but you know you'll be surprised Mamta battery has a very strong brand within Bengal is seen as the great maratha but you're right these are not pan-national parties you know ironic as it may sound the only pan-national party is led by a guy who's better off sitting in a boat which he never has to row and no pun intended on that snake ladder board but that's the tragedy yeah the tragedy is that that is the only pan-national party right the others are parties which fight elections because they are funds the other person you have to watch out for because as my grandmother would use a word for him he's a misna is arvind that is such a Punjabi thing to say she was Punjabi as I am


thing to say she was Punjabi as I am too he is the biggest misna that you have to watch out for for two reasons number one he's obviously got money and now he's got two states under his belt he understands the game he has played certain sessions of the media with lots of advertising money yeah yeah and you know that's what you what you've got to be worried about because he understands the game that is being played qual the media and you're rightly mentioned how irresponsible has the liberal media been in the most recent reporters there's been complete radio silence why because they applied with advertising money so the question that then needs to be asked Smitha is ask Irani famously said of the Statesman many years ago he says the press in India is as free as it chooses to be and I'm not saying this because I'm sitting here you run one of the most formidable agencies you know in terms of news agencies you know better than I do that the pulls


you know better than I do that the pulls and pressures sometimes are highly exaggerated sometimes television channels want to tow a particular line because they're looking for benefits which have nothing to do with news Gathering someone may want land for a university someone may want land for this someone may want land for that yeah if it's not a purely news owned organization then yes I mean and many channels mind you are owned by rice exporters Builders politicians so they have their own compulsions that I agree but um and even newspapers I shouldn't say just news so that's where I think social media has come in let me tell you even uh like when we're talking about the media in the past there are many um many presumptions that I myself had which I used to think that's the way it's done till social media came in and I there was a lot of reality check and literally learning every day you know yeah uh that oh my God what I was doing was wrong what I was thinking was


I was doing was wrong what I was thinking was wrong and this comes in when an ordinary person tells you that you know this is elitism that you know you are you don't even realize it that what you were seeing or what you were doing was wrong and then it just comes back to me I think social media is a great leveler yeah but I'll only tell people like you because you're in the in the field don't give too much Credence to social media okay if you look at the numbers it's almost about two percent of your population so it really doesn't matter Twitter was can be fought between people who have nothing else to do B social media has a way of creating pressure groups where none should exist the third is the anonymity the anonymity allows them to say Reckless things when the government created controls or wanted to create controls I was all for it and someone said oh you're in for censorship I said I'm sorry platforms cannot be used to incite and create hatred platforms cannot


be used to incite and create hatred platforms cannot be used to Peddle fake news then there must be some mechanism of Retribution either the platform should be made responsible or people using the platform should be made responsible tomorrow someone makes an allegation against you or me or person X or person why there is what recourse do I have there is nothing I mean this whole fact Checker business I'm not even going to get into it because then you know it becomes impossible because then and who's giving them who are you to tell me that your facts are the perfect facts and they choose the facts which they want to be absolutely and that choosing is based on ideology it's not choosing based on what is news is choosing based on okay this suits me ideologically this suits me religion wise cast wise whatever and that's why I'm going to fact check or not fact check it that that bothers me no so which is why the point that you raised earlier is very interesting the idea of India existed


earlier is very interesting the idea of India existed before we became free we're now all excited about India at 75 and we'll get excited at India at 100. the point is if you look back you pull back a bit what have you actually celebrated in India at 75 modi's done a remarkable job by at least branding it you know azadiq um but if you look at the communications being pathetic now you tell me tagore bankim Chandra Chatterjee whether it was Swami Vivekananda three orobindo the zillions of people across Amrita prism they were all contributors to the shaping of the thinking that made us who we are and I'm talking even go back further go back 3000 years ago my belief is that the time has come for us to celebrate indian-ness the tragedy is the left believes that indian-ness is nationalistic and nationalism is right-wing they forget that patriotism is the last Refuge of this government not nationalism yeah that's parsing the word because not many people


yeah that's parsing the word because not many people get into the intellectual aspect of it because I don't read they don't read yeah okay you know I'm dealing with even in the corporate world I'm dealing with 99 uh people who are absolute idiots but you can't say that to them because some some of them you know you you need to respect so when you're doing branding uh you know your ideal ideology negative right you don't even think that about the ideology of of your client you don't think about the religiosity or non-religious or agnostic or whatever it doesn't matter to you right what happens when you go in to talk about branding of a political party if you get a client if you have to advise a client does it matter which was given by me I treat it as an assignment okay I don't treat it and you're absolutely right I'm completely politically neutral okay and I've always been because frankly I'm more interested in great food than a great political party because no matter


great food than a great political party because no matter which political party comes they will tax the hell out of me yeah so I really don't care okay what I worry about are political parties which are Insidious to my mind and with all grave responsibility I will say ahmadmi party has become insidious insidious why when you raise alarmist bugles when you try and be anti-establishment for the sake of being anti-establishment when you out every institution that is that is germane to the functioning of a democracy then you're Insidious the danger I get it but what I'm trying to say is it's not as if he's inventing Reinventing the wheel he knows internationally what has happened but you see that's the problem today if you look at what's happening in America there was a time six months ago when I told people that if Trump stood in 2024 he will win but if you see some of the endorsements of the candidates he's had from the grand old party people are losing why ultimately people


the grand old party people are losing why ultimately people want a level of happiness and comfort now it's the other day someone on television said so many high net worth individuals have left India since Modi came my response was I'm so delighted because the people who've left were non-contributory in any which way they were people who were either skimming off the surface they were people who were violating laws of this land and they have left for better climes to now say that the government must not take action now the other thing which which you alluded to people like Mamta Banerjee say all the agencies are attacking politicians if politicians are making money the agencies will attack you the CBI or the Ed didn't put 70 crores in someone's house it was there it was unaccounted for now should our agency stop working even if it is for political reasons and allow corruption to be condoned many years ago I met with this guy he's a he's a businessman industrialist and said that I want my sons


businessman industrialist and said that I want my sons a son was in college and he says uh I want him to get into politics so I said like why you know contribute he said no because all businesses uh need one one person in politics to safeguard what you have and two for expansion businesses or they own it so this was quite a while ago which made me think that what what are we getting at you need it you need to get into public service to safeguard an existing business it sounded ghastly but you know look at the logic it sounds miserable but look at the logic how much money do people have to spend in order to fight an election it's Way Beyond the prescribed limit by the election commission sure today the election commissioner says instead of twenty thousand two thousand is the cash amount cash remittance all these political parties are minting money now if I have to spend 10 15 crores I'm going to recover that 15 crores how am I going to recover it not by


crores how am I going to recover it not by being Mother Teresa I will recover it in some form or the other who will I recover it from people like you and me well certainly not the two of us because I won't even pay a dime but that's that's how the whole recovery process begins yeah so my belief is that until and unless you make electoral funding really severe look at England for example in any constituency you stand for in England you can't spend more than 30 000 pounds that's the limit and they are hawkish about it even if you spend one pound more you can actually be debarred we have to follow that and trust me that day is not far you know I advise that others I advise but if you see the tatas they have a transparent way of funding elections which is based on two principles track record and what achievements have you made from your last electoral winnings to the present and it's all mathematically uh attributable so there's no


it's all mathematically uh attributable so there's no guns right at the at the grassroot level when an MLA election a panchayat election that's where all you don't have these kind of rules you know your corporate rules are different but all the money is actually coming in from the street you know where where the shopkeepers right let's see what modi's done and I've said this publicly it is by far the cleanest cabinet India's ever had ever yeah I believe there is in this cabinet or in this government the rule is that even the slightest bit obtained and you will have to leave so they there is this fear of danda all the time and I'm so glad now are people making money some are making money in the name of the party some bureaucrats must be making money or you know people in certain departments or whatever but I can tell you and I advise some of the biggest industrialists in the country each one has said which means we don't need to go to


has said which means we don't need to go to Delhi ever again earlier that's euphemism for lighting Pockets lining Pockets or you know paying obesions right today the fact that Modi doesn't meet individual industrialists and would only meet you in groups or the fact that they've given a lot of credits to The fickies ciis as a Champs of the world they are interested in policy once the policy is laid down it doesn't matter who you are what dispensation you come from and this whole nonsense that Rahul Gandhi started now that we're talking about corporates about adani and Ambani two things number one Rahul Gandhi even if he tried hard he wouldn't be able to employ a single person with an honest day's salary number two why do you begrudge people who are doing well for the country you know adani hasn't again come out you know stolen from a bank or done decority neither is Ambani why do you constantly berate your own industrialist today it's


you constantly berate your own industrialist today it's just these two tomorrow it'll spread and you will start having people at State levels so suppose the Smitha prakash doesn't pay money to a month of energy Mamta will start saying ah Smitha is bad there is no end to this see you know um we were talking about uh this whole adani Ambani business which uh Rahul Gandhi keeps saying and even um ahmadni party all their leaders of Amani party they keep saying that and then they kept saying that it's industrialists who run this government so there's this whole movement towards an anti-industrialist or just two people becoming richer whereas most of India is becoming poorer the Congress even celebrated the prime minister's birthday as beirusgari Divas if I'm not mistaken so on the other hand people you know say that you're crushing wealth you know those who are wealth creators job creators you're going after them so tell me is what is the right way so let me give


is what is the right way so let me give you facts today Reliance Industries is the second largest employer of Indians and is the largest employer of Indians in the private sector in September 2015 on the fifth Radha krishnadi's birthday when Mukesh launched jio it dropped pricing in competitive terms by almost 60 percent so today India is the world's leading digitized economy I mean even Germany can't get its goddamn payment uh portals right who did that money now you tell me there was Airtel there was Vodafone there were other players today what has happened Airtel is doing brilliantly Vodafone idea is in trouble as they should be because of perhaps their service levels or whatever today you have jio you have Airtel has it had been wiped out no adani when adani actually made his initial money it was during the Congress days please understand he's in the infrastructure business for a port to materialize it takes about 14 to 15 years let's say a fast accident does it in


years let's say a fast accident does it in nine years it's still before Modi came to power it's very easy for Raul Gandhi for anyone to take pot shots it's the same Mamta Banerjee who's Reckless irresponsible Member of Parliament made comments about adani who was the chief guest at the global business Summit where I was also present Gotham adani so if they don't like him why do they take his money if Rahul Gandhi doesn't like adani why does the show Gallard invite him to Rajasthan please also remember I can understand political compulsions but when political compulsions become personal they can go personal as well where did Rahul Gandhi and his family for years get money for their elections did they go to Fiji or New Zealand no they got it from these people who was who who did Ahmed Patel who supported Ahmed Patel Sikh all the time from diruma ambani's time he sought their uh you know supported patronage I think corporate India is


you know supported patronage I think corporate India is doing a fabulous job a b today the Tata group under Chandra and I'm deeply involved I know they've done fabulously well now will you say that Modi is also supporting the Tata group when the Cyrus Mystery Case happened it went right up to the Supreme Court it went through all the uh the procedure and when the house of Tata one would you say that oh Modi got it done I mean this is ridiculous and let me tell you this sarkar comment delayed reforms by two years and I know because jaitly was Finance Minister and nobody wanted this I will give you a fact Gautama madani has never spoken about it but I can tell you it's 100 true he owns the airport in Jaipur he also owns the airport in Ahmedabad he won't put his name there because obviously politicians must have told him we'll get into trouble this is ridiculous here is a person the bids are transparent it's not as


a person the bids are transparent it's not as if you know he's taken the airport under subterfuge he's in the infrastructure business look at Mukesh so tell me in this would you advise uh what he did was right it's it's political expediency you get no business body is done no what Rahul Gandhi has done is I'm talking about see an adani not putting the name you know not doing not at all because I'll tell you one thing and this is what I wanted to allude to earlier you can only succumb to Logic the day you succumb to Blackmail there'll be no stopping you they will blackmail you for everything they will hold you to Ransom intellectually they will hold you to Ransom monetarily they'll hold you to Ransom spiritually do you want that and which is why I say this discussion in public domains on religion is a travesty of who we really are we should not be talking about that I should not worry if Smitha eats beef or


should not worry if Smitha eats beef or eats poke or eats chicken or eats Gobi I should be worried if Smitha doesn't have enough food on her plate to eat that should be my worry true very well put another question which I've you know it it really touched my heart is when you what you said about you know he uh he made many people wealthy which which uh not many people know those who are not you know dealing with the stock market or don't know about him we saw those pictures of him with the Prime Minister and knew that he was not keeping good health you interacted with him in the last uh several times in fact the day he met the Prime Minister that evening he had come home to gurgaon for dinner and I warned him not the first time I told him I said you got to take it easy he was a severe diabetic in fact he had a diabetic foot hence the wheelchair but you know Rakesh was a different and


wheelchair but you know Rakesh was a different and is a different human being I can never even talk about him in the past tense his life was so wedded to the idea of a successful entrepreneurial driven India I never saw that in too many people a b what I loved about him is you say this about me I used to say this about him Reckless enjoyed his life and was Epicurean to a point that you know who knows tomorrow so eat drink as much as you can today what I always worried about and and I told him so in so many words was his complete disregard for health off of Fitness you know I'm not exactly adamus you know I'm overweight but at least I'm fit in the sense I'm healthy I work out I swim blah blah he had no interest he was a great Giver he was a super philanthropist he gave money to Ashoka he uh set up foundations he set up schools but here's the tragedy of what uses all of


but here's the tragedy of what uses all of that when you disregard your own health and today he leaves behind a wife he leaves behind a daughter who's 17 or so two boys who are 13 I mean this was a man who was a genuine Giver you know of him I've always said he was one of the finest optimists that you would want to put in a room anywhere to promote brand India okay he was not only Indian in his Outlook in his eating habits in everything he was a committed Indian in terms of India's potential he genuinely believed that India will India can and India must outlive the potential that its most formidable supporters have given it even you are like that very unabashed about your uh about your belief in brand India I love my country I I love it to the point that sometimes the stupidities that it is infected with make me very angry like I I'm saying this to you I've written about it it'll be published in a while I've said


it it'll be published in a while I've said that brand India at 75 could have been a celebration of such a different kind but you know we turned it into an we turned it like event managers and this is my problem with governments see remember one thing Modi is a very astute marketing man very astute he understands both Optics and the Outreach but when you give it to babus they don't they treat it as an event now you tell me you have two nehru centers across the world one in Moscow one in London what are they they're known for samosas and pathetic wine I could have done an Outreach which would have been so remarkable in celebrating India why I had a first celebrated democracy the day I would have celebrated democracy in Washington and in New York in London and in Moscow I would really nearly be celebrating Modi so all his people in the government who would like to suck up to him should have realized that a celebration of democracy is


have realized that a celebration of democracy is actually a celebration of electoral politics over dictatorial politics plus what do we do in our soft pass method we talk about Bollywood that's it we have sundry literary festivals but where are the Hari Prasad chaurasias who are still alive we do a film on uh India at 75 which is a poor copy of military this is a film which should not have had Kapil Dev although I love him it should not have had all these celebrities it had the same Padma what is who you and I don't know but who we would have come to know through whom you would have admired the diversity of India both in potential as well as linguistically and culturally we let that opportunity pass so my belief is that this country has so much potential we've got great people we've got great human beings you know people have asked me I mean I've advised governments abroad people said why don't you become a British citizen but I would


don't you become a British citizen but I would never give up this country why because a I was born here B I don't belong to India or India belongs to me we have a common DNA and I've often said that India is like the Bumblebee aerodynamically the Bumblebee can't fly but you know the bumblebee doesn't know that so it flies happily okay so for all the cynics who say Indiana foreign inflation what we did during the pandemic I was the biggest critic in wave two when he ran short of resp uh uh oxygen and we ran short of ventilators triumphed you don't think as many in the opposition say that the idea of India is being altered and it's under who are they the idea of India belongs to every Indian who the hell is jairam Ramesh or Sita Ram yeturi or for that matter anyone in the BJP to say this is one idea of India India's ideas are pluralistic India is not monolithic in either its Outlook or in


is not monolithic in either its Outlook or in its construct India is a celebration of diversity India is a celebration of contrarian thought I mean the fact that we are today celebrating netaji we're also celebrating Mahatma Gandhi we are also celebrating Sardar Patel no it's another matter that sometimes you make dead people fight that's another matter but the point is we are celebrating our diversity and why shouldn't we but I am saying celebrate the scholarship of India thank you our lives will go our cars will shrink or cars will vanish the idea of India will only remain if we anchor the idea of India in the ideas that made India for that you will need scholarship you won't need bravado you know there are n number of people who say that suhail lives his life large like a like a Malya of the corporate world oh you love your parties you love your you love your friends you love that that high profile lifestyle that you led there was


that that high profile lifestyle that you led there was there was nowhere you got affected by this vocism at any point of time to be correct no so two things number one I live within my means obviously I don't even have I don't even have point zero zero one Pisa of debt when I say debt even my credit card Owings number two what is the harm I'm not cheating I've not stolen anyone's money I've not done a single deal I've not fixed anything I'm abusing most people on television but people also realize that in friendship it is always unconditional now in my house people come from different dispensations you would have an artist you would have a musician you would have a philosopher you'd have a poet so it's not that we are making any distinction and I wrote in my book in my first book I said never make clients out of friends only make friends out of clients because the day you start doing the former you're in trouble when it comes to uh


former you're in trouble when it comes to uh Bollywood when you talk about the uh the Bombay film right this whole thing about nepotism casting couch it's become again this cancel culture is coming in we're saying oh everybody is hiring only people who they know uh you know your uncle yours so this whole cancel culture comes in even there this nepotism bit as far as nepotism is concerned who would you much rather work with you'd work with people you know especially in the film industry to now say nepotism okay there's always been nepotism yeah if there was no nepotism there'd be no Bobby with Rishi Kapoor always is a I had Pawan Varma in the on the show uh and we were talking about this whole thing that we it's always been there so why not right uh it's always been there the yestopras and the you know the all the other producers it's been there in South India too correct in the South Indian film industry it's been there


correct in the South Indian film industry it's been there in bureaucracy too an ICS officer's law is there in law journalism journalism right in see in the private sector it's there agreed that you'd rather hire somebody you'd rather but then ultimately it's the balance sheet if if the son of an industrialist doesn't bring about the results he is not CEO anymore somebody else is jointed because you know your balance sheet has killed your responsible to your shareholders the same in Bollywood is that agar uh Mr chopra's son doesn't bring about three hits after a while he can't last a Mr bachchan's son if he doesn't bring if he brings flop after flop he's not going to get producers only it gives you a foot in the door look at Tushar Kapoor for instance yeah I have no comment on his acting abilities but he comes from great stock yeah jeetenderson ekta's brother yeah where is he yeah where is he yeah so let me tell you it might give you


yeah so let me tell you it might give you a foot in the door but it doesn't guarantee you a station in life but in bureaucracy in politics it does in bureaucracy uh see in English nurturing constituency let's imagine I have a constituency called X and I worked in that constituency for let's say 30 40 years and my daughter says I'd also work there she's perhaps seen me work she's walked the streets with me it'll be much easier for her than for an outsider a b you're absolutely right that's human behavior we love Legacy building but not anymore those those walls that's what I feel that that change is happening see when I started in journalism uh when I was doing Beach journalism at one point of time so who's doing the foreign beat or even now who does the defense beat children of Defense service officers who does the foreign beat Sons and Daughters of ifs ifs officers right they are doing that so what happens our uncle will


are doing that so what happens our uncle will give me an interview Auntie will give me an interview those uncles and aunties also they have gone to those exact same schools correct they have taken the civil services Network they have the same they go to Gymkhana Club India International Center they have that so regardless if you're a mediocre you will get the plum postings of London New York Washington DC and maybe one neighborhood posting which is considered a punishment posting in foreign office you'll get that if you're in the IIs and you could belong to the Carter where actually you should be in the Northeast no you will keep them but it's changing so here I am noticing that yeah see under this prime minister in our country it's changing but look at what's happening abroad here I mean you still think that in in Western democracies that look at England they decried Boris Johnson and they said not the old etonian Network and they actually said of the last 15 Prime Ministers since


they actually said of the last 15 Prime Ministers since Winston Churchill seven are from the same school so let me tell you the old boys network is still alive and kicking I mean if it's not crumbling anymore not at and it won't okay because ultimately if you look at it from a human perspective or a consumer perspective we are ultimately animals of social captivity we are expected so we are captive to our societal uh radius you will feel very uncomfortable if I suddenly why is there this bad habit in Delhi especially you ask someone to dinner they'll always ask you so that's very Delhi right but it's now uh Bombay too it's Bombay too it's it's it's now a national disease and the reason why they ask is because of their lack of either scholarship or their lack of the or their ability to talk they want to be in what I call comfortable zones or are they just nervous being seen with X or why because that they don't care because today they might


why because that they don't care because today they might be with someone that person might go to jail tomorrow they won't know okay so that they're not worried about they are worried about what we call a threatening environment so Howard Schultz who founded uh Starbucks when asked why did you create Starbucks he says this the office and then there's the home and then there's the third place so Starbucks was the third place where you didn't feel threatened you didn't have to live up to any expectations and nothing was asked of you so the concept of the third place still doesn't exist in our lives on a day-to-day basis so we are animal social captivity we are captive to social norms social behavior people even make pretense I mean I don't want to name names but I said that there are Bollywood actors who even charge uh to be present at a funeral now why would someone pay them because that person is seeking social acceptance okay today if you see the sense of entitlement is no longer


you see the sense of entitlement is no longer stature driven it is actually money driven if you see the people who frequent five-star hotels today from what they used to do 10 years ago because people are no longer ashamed of their linguistic skills or their inability to speak English amazing used to say this too where he used to say that when you say I mean he said so today people are not bothered today a guy who has the money knows he has the access earlier the guy who had the money may not have had the access and he'd feel a bit different today no one feels different so you feel that you know there was a time when Mr Modi came in I also remember the time when Mr ghatkari was you know became president of BJP and you know he used to drink uh he would sip it and of course everybody in Delhi used to deter and laugh about it because you know it was like oh my God what is this he's doing because Delhi


my God what is this he's doing because Delhi is a very uh you know yeah quick to judge on these things right where it is so common in Bombay to do this even an industrialist would do it in Bombay nobody would even blink but in Delhi you know these habits you know like you you as Pawan was saying the other day and he said like you know there's there's one guy who said oh he's HMT Hindi medium type or it's the worst was Urt Urdu medium type you know my God yeah so thank God I don't know whoever meets nowadays so this is no he's talking about his era in uh when he was in the Foreign Service so at that time which is true but you remember when you were in college also you know there was this whole thing about salwar kami's you won't you won't make it to the right crowd no no but I remember yeah College Delhi since Stephen I was walking to speak at the Mukherjee Memorial and I was


speak at the Mukherjee Memorial and I was wearing a khadi kurta with blue jeans and covert is butter covered his sandals and one guy says when I won the debate and I came down and I said see so the arrogance was stupendous yeah but in college to some extent men could wear jeans and kurta because there was still that leftist element to and the jhola there was still that thing that even if you didn't believe in leftist ideology you still wore it to get accepted leftist and this I noticed that it was only in some campuses where it wasn't visible which was maybe in Stevens and maybe in an IIT maybe in the technical colleges but across India that was the attire no longer no now see so a lot has changed in India number one let me analyze it just from a from a sociological point of view the Indian of today versus the Indian 10 years ago is 700 more confident number two we have decried a lot of the


number two we have decried a lot of the social mores see the matrimonial column adds in those days you have to be they would ask for is ifas Doctor lawyer today they don't care number three seven figure eight figure salary is what matters no and the sense of entitlement is gone there was no EMI in those days right you lived within your mind that's my worry also yeah because I'm seeing especially in Delhi the amount of social pressure on materialism is causing great damage plus parenting is being outsourced you know in our times if you took a tutor you are talking about materialism I think I mean everybody knows right and you yourself love your hedonistic life but I've earned it you've earned it so I wondered I'm happy driving I go in Autos if I can get an auto quickly in Bombay I would say that landsat because we've been there done that you know I drive a Kia and I'm very proud to people say oh you used to have a Maybach


to people say oh you used to have a Maybach what happened I said you know I find a care more comfortable which I do you probably not get kidnapped no forget kidnapped you have to be comfortable in your own skin okay ultimately you will not take anything with you where are you most comfortable Calcutta gurgaon New York I'm comfortable everywhere because I have great friends okay and I have great other interests so in New York I have my place to see in the evening I have the Opera to go to in London the same you have great friends you're not hanging around only with the NRI crowd you know waiting to have just your usual Indian food but the point is in order to be that you've actually got to be interested in things you know I still work towards finishing one book a day but people say how could you finish your book a day you have to make the time writing so you know half the Jokers will not know so they will say oh yeah he became this


know so they will say oh yeah he became this so he became that here we've been there done that for ages when buddy television began pardoned the the French when television began I was doing youth time debates then yes so it's no it's now people say oh you're on television I said yes now we are at the end of our lives on television plus we knew when to get off yeah in college 13 episodes and you were done and you had to work towards the next 13 episodes and in college the day I finished my graduation I never came back and uh spoke in any inter College event there were people who were taking part even during the maze because of the money or the fame or whatever I said no I've done my graduation I'm out it's very important to know when to stop okay because this is a Mindless Rush towards avarice of a kind that you and I can't Define the other thing is and and I bemoan the fact that this is happening


I bemoan the fact that this is happening the young of today are unable to communicate because of a lack of Scholarship today communication oh what's up bro how do you respond to that hmm how do you respond to someone not reading that's become a major thing but not clearance and not listening yeah hearing because that's a non-cognitive function yeah but they're not listening this and look at what's happening you and I both take part in these debates right satire is gone humor is gone no it's not there have you noticed not just satire and humor gone everybody is so scared that one sentence this way or that way can lead you can lead into an fir that there are many experts now who people viewers probably don't realize but they're reading it out of a computer they're not speaking they're like you speak and then I speak red I react to an anchor who you know or nurb or navika or whatever asks a question and I react to that question they don't they


question and I react to that question they don't they have a script prepared and they're reading it out because they are scared one they're they're not confident like you were saying because they come they're not sure right so they come prepared with this is what I have to say and I'm going to say this regardless of what the question is and I'm noticing this bizarre they're not all that erudite when you meet them in real life but on television suddenly they're spouting Shayari and they're coating and everything this is straight out of a computer which is kept in front of them and we don't realize it or viewers don't realize it but it's only when I meet them I realize my goodness this person really cannot speak he's speaking out of that either for fear of being misquoted or picked up by these so-called fact Checkers who are agenda artists who want to cancel you out of these debates or else you know I've never touched only I have not been canceled out because


touched only I have not been canceled out because frankly I don't care you don't care yeah a b everyone knows I have zero malice I have no agenda whatever's happened to me in my life I've always reacted in the same way that you let it pass because you know a fight never helps anyone viciousness and vitriol never help you I have often used humor or satire you know in television debates because I think everyone is so angry and the I wrote an article many weeks ago I called us us the Republic of Rage I said everyone's angry the guy behind is angry because you're not moving but how can you move with the traffic light is red I frankly get angry just waiting for 40 minutes waiting for my turn to speak that makes me angry nothing else now can you imagine so the other thing is that you know as in in our profession uh because the you know news moves so quickly I I've noticed journalists as they become older they keep


I've noticed journalists as they become older they keep bemoaning about the good old yesteryears that was true journalism today it's not that's rubbish do you feel like that in in your profession too no oh so two things when we did advertising my contemporary was piyush Pandey so push and I used to work on clients together it is a different ball game Smitha we walked in like lions what was my salary 6000 rupees a month but we walked in as we owned the place today an agency walks into a client's office as if they are serviled as if they are supplicants so I've always told people in advertising today and I left advertising 2006. I said you know when we walked in the clients would respect us because we had a point of view and if the client didn't like it we'd tell him lump it and we'd walk out today everyone is scared business will lose you only have to compromise on one thing not compromising the day you compromise you will


thing not compromising the day you compromise you will be trampled and you know there are people who will walk all over you so what I'm seeing today is different I'm seeing it different in advertising I'm seeing marketing change more and more people are not spending as much time in understanding consumer Behavior as much as they should people have stopped reading where is journalism today I think the journalist of today is under far greater pressure than he or she has ever been as you said of the immediacy plus you're being bombarded yeah when do you when was the last time you actually read a printed newspaper cover to cover because you didn't need to you're getting real-time news on Twitter and I'm you know uh if you're getting an overload at my age I'm finding this that I have the newspaper in front of me and I'm seeing the article but instead of reading it there I moved to my laptop and I type that because my eye is reading a typed word faster than a newspaper there you are


typed word faster than a newspaper there you are there you are so I was the only I'm the only person who whether in London or in New York you subscribers have instructions to give me printed newspapers but that's like we are dinosaurs who are still certainly we are the people who genuinely believe in the printed word yeah and and you're absolutely right I think journalists today have a far greater challenge yeah they have a challenge of being judged immediately they have a challenge of these so-called fact checkers one sentence can can make you you know like land up with 10 Firs you're sitting in Delhi you're sitting in a Noida studio and The Firs are in Calcutta the fir is in Jaipur but you know that now now the clubbing has happened thanks to the courts but that's after I know of several uh anchors what do you do it's a live debate right it happens this way and that way and for you just let a sentence go by because how much can


just let a sentence go by because how much can you concentrate no no and it's unfair this whole fir business you see we cannot use the justice system for pernicious purposes Justice you must read this brilliant book I know he's part of the right wing cancel culture but read a book called the idea of Justice by matthiasen in that only one statement is very relevant to what you and I are saying he says ultimately Justice is about fairness and there's a difference between Niti and nyay Niti is when Smitha goes to court nyai is what she receives at the hands of the court so there's no point saying how Smith has been to the Supreme Court what is the Supreme Court given her in terms of fairness and ultimately Justice is about fairness so when you and I discuss all this this whole fir business we have to understand that are these Firs actually solving either a legal issue are they addressing an illegality that I may have committed or is it pure harassment it


may have committed or is it pure harassment it is pressure tactic so if it's harassment or pressure tactic it's sad I mean I was a sued for 800 crores uh by a particular company because I said something on Twitter it's another matter that it got sorted or you know went away so I'm saying we cannot allow ourselves to be prisoners of a pernicious justice system and that should not be the reason for you to be gagged yeah but again uh you could probably do an out of court settlement or you'd have a lawyer who can help you with you know with discussing with the client or you can you can even go to court and you can battle it out but what happens to an employee you own your company but what happens to an employee is that the boss turns around tread the line which is the cautious line you know so this is what is going to happen with journalism unfortunately you now will have like you know it happened about 30 years ago


like you know it happened about 30 years ago where you had the the marketing team sitting in editorial deciding on the pages correct the same way now you have the legal team sitting out there to see what can go and what that's sad yeah that's sad yeah so you know these are the the pitfalls of where journalism is heading towards anyway interesting talking to you thank you so much for giving us your time thank you thank you thank you for watching or listening into Ani podcast with Smitha prakash that was an interview with suhail said if you liked what you saw then please like And subscribe in whichever platform you saw this or heard this namaste [Music] thank you [Music]


my daughter was going to Canada to study an advisory would like this would make me wonder I would probably burn up the phone lines with her every day Pakistan has been on a mission to revive the kalistan movement uh not merely in Pakistan but in UK and in Canada outrage is the dominant dominant emotion across the world the state government in Punjab or certainly central government there should definitely be an Outreach at the at the local levels to educate people advise them sensitize them about realities in Canada what they see in pictures what they see in movies uh Etc is just not it I mean Namaste Jai Hind welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash if your son or daughter is applying for College admission to Canada or if you were a student in Canada then the advisory by the Indian government would have you worried this is the advisory there's been a sharp increase in incidents of hate crime sectarian violence and anti-india activities in Canada the ministry of


and anti-india activities in Canada the ministry of external Affairs and a high commission Consulate General in Canada have taken up these issues with the Canadian authorities and requested them to investigate the said crimes and take appropriate action the perpetrators of these crimes have not been brought to justice so far in Canada in view of the increasing incidences of crime as described above Indian Nationals and students from India in Canada and those proceeding to Canada for travel or education are advised to exercise due caution and remain Vigilant Indian Nationals and students from India in Canada may also register with a high Commission of India in Ottawa or consulate generals of India in Toronto and Vancouver through their respective web websites or the madad portal madad.gov dot in registration would enable the high commission and consulate generals to better connect with Indian citizens in Canada in the event of any requirement or emergency this was the advisory put out by the government of India now this isn't the first time that India has issued such an


the first time that India has issued such an advisory Canada on the other hand has issued a sharp counter advisory warning its citizens when they travel to parts of India that may be unsafe and not fall for scams in India now this is supposedly a an advisory which had been put out earlier too but the sharp Focus has been the lackadaisical attitude of Canadian law enforcement authorities about attacks on Indians in Canada or people of Indian origin in Canada and that has made India nervous now a 29 year old Indian student was killed in a shooting incident in September this year in Ontario Canadian MP Chandra Arya tweeted about the growing number of attacks on Hindu places of worship and temples in Canada his tweet says vandalism of Toronto baps SRI Swami Narayan mandir by Canadian kalistani extremists should be condemned by all this is not just an isolated event Canadian Hindu temples have been targeted in the past by these kinds of hate crime Hindu Canadians


by these kinds of hate crime Hindu Canadians are legitimately concerned this was his tweet and then there is the issue of gangster crime organized crime which came into sharp focus with the killing of sidhu moose Wala one of the accused Goldy Brar is in Canada gangs and criminal organizations within the Punjabi Canadian Community have expanded their activities into Indian soil another long-standing problem is the kalistani groups in Canada an issue that dates back to the 1980s and is a festering problem the Indian middle class for decades have sent children to the U.S Canada and UK for higher education and better prospects but assimilation has been a problem especially for children who come from rural backgrounds in India and find it difficult to adjust to a different culture some of them work double shifts and are also studying to get a degree in a college to understand where the relationship stands that is India Canada relationship where does it stand now and should this issue be escalated to the Prime Minister level we spoke with


escalated to the Prime Minister level we spoke with indrani bakchi who is the CEO of ananta Center a think tank based in Delhi indrani was the Diplomatic editor for the times of India for several years and covered the ministry of external Affairs and has interpreted Global Trends with an Indian perspective here's my conversation with indrani bakchi thank you very much for speaking with us indrani my first question would be that you know this kind of an advisory is not something new uh it's happened before but do you think that it's it's kind of uh it's a stronger advisory as compared to the earlier ones that used to come and will it put India Canada really will put more stress on India Canada relations and how seriously should one take this uh if you're a parent if you're a student who's going to study in Canada or if you're already studying in Canada when this kind of an advisory comes out it just sounds it sounds very ominous uh thank you Smita and thank


sounds very ominous uh thank you Smita and thank you for inviting me such a pleasure um hey this is actually this is unusual the mea advisory that came out I think on the 23rd uh certainly unusual uh because uh we've had incidents before in Canada but um I think mea has or the government of India has sort of taken it on the chin ignored it uh sort of uh sort of in a disdainful manner so to speak but they haven't actually retorted with an um with an advisory an advisory actually is something that the state advises its citizens and we we believe that the full force of State knowledge understanding is behind that advisory um if you remember every time the U.S would issue an advisory to its own citizens in India it it used to be taken as a slight in in India and if you remember we used to do stories on this stuff um so this is this is clearly the state of the government of India expressing its disapproval um


of the government of India expressing its disapproval um in fact this morning I saw the Canadians have responded with another with an advisory of their own uh basically saying that uh you should not asking their citizens to not travel to Gujarat Rajasthan Punjab because the landmines because there were landmines over the last land mine in Rajasthan or in Gujarat I would like to know well there have been on the on the on the other side on the no band lands yeah but that was a long long time ago and uh but it also talks about terrorism across the country throughout the country the threat of terrorism throughout the country and um so clearly they are also they are not turning the other cheek I think in Rani sometimes I feel that it's a good advisory because if there are any of those uh kalistanis who are based in Canada who are planning to move from Pakistan to uh India via Rajasthan side of whether the Gujarat side of punjabs I will think again


Gujarat side of punjabs I will think again because there might be landmines you know I wish I wish I think they're made of stunner stuffs but uh but yeah so the but so yes it is certainly it is uh in a sense taking um the dis Indian disapproval up several notches um Canada's response in-kind and in in about landmines Etc uh say it tells me one thing that um I don't think Canada understands the depth of the problem that India wants Canada to resolve or to help to resolve uh I think they are looking at it as oh you know just another uh country kind of thing um so I'd say that this requires some degree of political intervention at some point because we you could get onto this spiral of I'm issuing advisory and you're issuing a counter advisory and when the relationship the larger relationship actually doesn't warrant it because there is a problem certainly and that is a big problem um if this was Pakistan I would have put this problem front and


was Pakistan I would have put this problem front and center but since it is Canada and half a world away we have to find a way to resolve this this and I think and I think uh it is imperative on Canada to actually try and understand the Indian thinking a little better you think the Indian thinking has changed uh now you know because uh there is a whole lot of talk that the Indian foreign policy has become more muscular or Indian policy makers even if you see uh Dr Jai Shankar's visit uh you know if you see the U.N uh statements if you see his statements in America when uh when he's called out America's Bluff regarding f-16s uh that you know what are you trying to say that you're not trying to I mean you're not fooling anyone when you say that f-16s are used for counter-terror not that it had any impact because secretary blinken was like blase about it right so uh but when India puts out this kind of an advisory I'm going to come


this kind of an advisory I'm going to come back to it that it seems like uh the Canadian authorities were tone deaf to understand that this is not this is not something that is going to be taken lightly anymore or it's not going to be ignored anymore or or just you know kept at the bare a perfunctory statement you know there is a uh there is a degree of tone deafness certainty in Canada um do you remember when uh um Justin Trudeau visited in April in 2018 uh along with that just palatwal who they had to then disinvite and they it it was an enormous embarrassment he didn't come as an official or something yes but he came with him he came with him and he was invited to two official events before he was disinvited yeah um and I and that tells you a little bit about the tone deafness with them in in Canada uh regarding the Indian muscular uh sort of response I would say the in Indian response in the last few years


say the in Indian response in the last few years has become more shall we say open earlier earlier we may have been we may have thought twice that you know we don't want to anger the Canadians we've got so many other interests with them um I think now we are putting our security concerns right up there on the table and making no bones about it you've seen this kind of a response I mean everywhere from Pakistan to others um we the the this government at least believes that security interests security concerns um are Paramount and we will raise them we will put them up at the table as much as possible I mean look at jaishankar even use the statement it used as UNSC intervention where he called out Russia certainty but he also called out China because China has been blocking sanctions on uh terrorists who Target India but operate out of Pakistan but particularly people like Sajid Mir so you are you are seeing uh a little more uh openness and a little more uh uh sort of out


openness and a little more uh uh sort of out there put it out there put it out there yeah kind of so you know you I've also covered the kind of things were done behind closed doors and then when there was an off the Record briefing for journalists we were told that candid conversation happened or India put forth uh in a strong manner or in a forthright manner but what happened in those conversations the exact words were never put out there but now we are probably doing it at both levels yeah we're putting it out there in the closed door meetings but being open about it and say and not shying away from saying that you know this this kind of a dichotomy of you know of saying everything is hunky-dory but actually not being there so do you think that yeah yeah well I think what's happening more and more about issues like this is they are not taking that Refuge behind uh of the record conversations in fact they're just putting everything out on the record


fact they're just putting everything out on the record and then waiting for it to fall where it falls and how is this falling it's not I mean it's had no impact right actually do you think that the Canadian response is just an Anodyne uh response which they do every year or advisory every year that oh okay like I see the Canadian response today is clearly a response to our response I see right but I mean I've spoken to many Canadian officials about uh where we are and so they put this line to us to me at least that you know we really want to uh get rid of these elements as well we want to get rid of these elements we would like a little more in information evidence from India so it struck me then that they were sounding exactly like the Pakistani yeah because you don't see a game we used to play we used to play the you have my dossier I have my your daughter your daughter cells thinner than mine mine is fatter than yours so add more files