so the BAM on PF is 100 right because they have gone beyond the Contours of what they were supposed to do as a social organization they're spreading hatred money laundering killing and tamilnadu also PFA had a huge Presence at different points of time and the two in a country like India when when mha with with a lot of agencies input when they do a very meticulous study of what has happened it is a very well ordered ban also but I believe Banning PFA is also warning for other elements who can take India for granted India was previously a soft State before 2014 India was not a very hard State like this hard state in the sense we protect our borders we protect the sovereignty of our country 2014 soft State Pakistan came in isi hit Mumbai 2009 they walked out we never reacted anything much it was always seen as a soft state in the world size PFA somehow got used to that that India is always a soft State now India has a very hard state in


soft State now India has a very hard state in terms of our thinking and behavior so this new thing has changed there are still many organizations in India like mini pfis here and there they also have to understand they have to mend their ways and come into the Constitutional ways of functioning another Regional issue which I want to talk I mean of course Islamic fundamentalism is not a regional issue but we were talking specifically in terms of Tamil Nadu uh now that you know another issue is the sethu samudram project can you tell me what is your objection to this uh so that you know those who will want me to specifically ask you about uh some of these projects take a little bit time to explain sure um okay uh the for people many of many of many many people from across India who haven't visited rameshwaram who hasn't seen ramanathapuram uh rameshwaram is is is not exactly the tip of Tamil Nadu it is closer to Sri Lanka where we have the Lord


closer to Sri Lanka where we have the Lord ramanatha Swami Temple and in ramayana we all know the story where uh Lord Rama was along with Sita Mata when they were flying they wanted a lingam for worship so since they couldn't find any lingam they sent hanumanji to go and find a lingam and bring hanumanji came all the way to Kashi vishwanath Temple to find a lingam by the time the lingam came Sita Mata made a lingam out of sand and made Lord Rama to pray and we see in Kashi the Lincoln that has come we see the sand lingam both present inside the Lord ramanatha Swami Temple now this is the history from there to go to Sri Lanka what in English they call the Adams bridge in Tamil we call the Rama Palam meaning Rama's bridge in English we call Rama setu in Hindi we say Rama Seto it's a 58 kilometer land mass Bridge which connects Hindi and Sri Lanka from the


which connects Hindi and Sri Lanka from the satellite image we all have seen it now when the UPA was in power DMK was very clear they wanted to bring project by which ships if they have to come to thoothukudi they have to come to India across Sri Lanka come here both Sri Lanka and come to titukuri they wanted to bring a structure where the ships will come in India between India and Sri Lanka it will enter go over Rama setu and go to thoothukudi another port they say this is important because we saved lot of money the cargo traffic will start coming towards India they will not move around Sri Lanka this is the whole idea madam they have also made an alignment called alignment Fourier alignment Fourier they've given a drawing that will come alignment 4A exactly breaks Rama setu by creating that say the samathram project in 2018 March the central government gave an affidavit and Supreme Court our BJP government where we said we have an objection to the previous


where we said we have an objection to the previous Congress government's foreign but the central government is considering other alignment as of now where Rama setu shouldn't be even touched this is because their objection is that there is no Rama setu isn't it uh dmk's objection yeah DMK and UPA DMK Congress their objection continuously is this is a figment of imagination there's nothing like that but BJP Central government's view is Rama setu we will not touch it but the same time we are not against the sethu samatram project per se we will find some other alignment this thing 2021 January the honorable prime minister Narendra Modi has put a committee to study the Rama setu scientifically and give a report in three years the committee is functioning as of now Parliament recently when jitendra Singh ji was giving an answer to a question he mentioned very direct to a question that was asked whether the existence of Rama setu connected to ramayana is confirmed I very clearly mentioned that structures


ramayana is confirmed I very clearly mentioned that structures do exist since it is 18 000 years before the government as of now the committee and everything is studying as of now Bridges not confirmed but structures do exist and of course the committee is functioning we will get a report what Tamil Nadu government did in the assembly is they picked up one line of jitendra Singh ji they said since the central government themselves say Rama Saida did not exist so we are bringing this project and the Assembly of the members who were there they said look we don't have a problem with that project which is General government's Viewpoint also but don't do alignment for yay so BJP standards no alignment 4A by which Rama setu bridge will get damaged do some other thing now what is it what is the thing behind it now I'll also say that this project Fourier it's a stupid project I'm using the word called stupid because generally The Madam used it in 2014. she used the same words she said


in 2014. she used the same words she said when you say big ships can move in this this is a very peculiar area Madam if you look at the the sea between Sri Lanka and tamilnadu it's a shallow area unlike other parts of India you don't it's a very shallow you see coral reef we have the Rama Seto in montpomeria you have the sea water this height you see the land below for kilometers inside every time a ship has to come after the ship going the sand will come inside and close that root a continuous dredging operation has to be done in the inside that for the ships to pass Madam said look huge ships cannot come because the dredging operation has to be continuous the project will fail she says even 20 000 ton ships which Tamil Nadu government owns called the Pumbaa shipping Corporation even they can't come it will benefit only two people because TR biology you want a shipping company she mentioned the name your ships can come she mentioned kanimally our


name your ships can come she mentioned kanimally our real name she said you want this Westgate Logistics you are a shareholder you have ships so your ships will come not no Tamil fishermen is going to benefit so she dared and challenged both the TR biology and the Karim only Madam see that you put it on record you don't have any ownership in the shipping company invariably Madam is the thoothukudi MP now where constituency also comes along the coastline and TR biology is a Chennai MP till now they're ready to answer whether they have a shipping company in their name the number one model two the recent study says when the tsunami came lot of damage happened the coastline between India and Sri Lanka did not get damaged because the shallow Waters observed all the energy itself so technically it protects us from tsunami because the Indonesia plate is always very fragile so it will protect third Madam is committee report he said economically this project is unviable the Planning Commission which


this project is unviable the Planning Commission which was dead in 2000 before 2014 said for a 25 000 crore project the 25 000 project that point of time he said it can only be functional if it has got a 12 percent internal rate of return this project doesn't even get four percent there is no cost saving there is no fuel saving no but because the dredging money offsets the fuel the fuel saving that you will do by skipping steel and can't coming inside so overall whatever project we have discussed till now fails in multiple counts project we have to completely work out of the box sit with central government do as some other alignment which might favor us the current project will never be a star okay now I cannot conclude uh on Tamil Nadu politics without discussing the caste issue because that is also always you know uppermost in people's minds when they start talking about how to give seeds how to give how to give tickets how what is the alignment in Tamil Nadu the BJP now


the alignment in Tamil Nadu the BJP now seems to be fractured in many ways you are accused of being anti-brahamin anti-uppercast how do you handle that now it is very funny Madam for the first time DMK is talking very positively about brahmins of our state for the very first time they say that look look at anomaly this bmk's official mlas and MPS look at anomaly this guy is making sure no brahmins want to exist within BJP party so anomaly should be kicked out this is DMK saying that anomaly is antibiomic the only thing they say because somebody resigned from the party somebody gets suspended from the party if you take if you take what I've taken some decent recipients a state party president they don't talk about any other cost of course you have suspended n number of people of different communities I don't even know what community they are but they pick up one or two Brahmin Community people getting suspended from the party for some discipline reason


getting suspended from the party for some discipline reason they pick up and say look this fellow's anti-promise is number one and which is very interesting to see because how DMK itself is clueless with respect to accusing me they should have some basis to accuse matter accusing me of Brahmin bias by DMK is the most idiotic argument in tamilnadu's history after Independence in 1947. second Madam we of course we can't believe in caste we don't believe in constant but it's not just the DMK animal right I'm sorry for interrupting even the lady that you suspended she also said no that you have a caste bias they have to save and they are inside the party Madam anybody who whom you suspend you take a discipline action when they go out they give you all kinds of reasons to accuse you of your number of things somebody within the party coming out and say I'm within the party I'm an office order this fellow is doing this that's a different argument having said


is doing this that's a different argument having said it madam one thing we have to understand I believe in the word called Brahman the quality of a brahmanas educated virtuous righteous a person who understands the scriptures who lives a very dignified and good life that is a wonderly caste I believe the cast of Brahman which is close to Lord Shiva otherwise I am a cast neutral person for a simple fact born in a village taken me out taken me across India put me in a government service coming here it will be stupid of me to believe in caste because many places we have broken cast many places we have seen great number of Tamil brahmins specially in tamilnadu almost like juice the Tamil brahmins of Tamil Nadu they are literally Jews in the sense 1971 75 77 a Tamil Brahman says I'm a Tamil Brahman and tanjawur take it from me the DMK will do something to you madam they come and deface your house they'll


you madam they come and deface your house they'll put some Chapel they will bring Lord Rama outside your Agra Haram put a Chapel Garland to Lord Rama in Salem they have done it they've done it injour they will do most idiotic of things to chase them away that is why some of the greatest Talent of Tamil Nadu is outside yes some of the greatest Talent is in U.S it's in Delhi it is outside I think biggest disservice to them just like Jews because DMK as a party it is founder on the anti-brahima philosophy 1919 when the backward classes movement got formed by which Justice party came which is a forerunner to Davidian kalakam which is a foreign classes moment in 1917. the history always every time is anti-promic now first time they want to do this in Tamil Nadu politics DMK speaking is like Hapa whatever accusation they have done after one or three years a small boy from a small village in Tamil Nadu in


from a small village in Tamil Nadu in my way in my in my second year in politics I have made DMK to speak okay all right you talked about virtuous virtuosity in politics and in character building and all but whenever you know people sitting in outside Tamil Nadu think of Tamil Nadu politics there's a lot of sleeves also involved sex tapes all this thing comes out and even in the BJP now you know these things are coming out tapes are coming out how are you going to keep discipline in your party I keep telling this young people Madam where politics is disciplined first and more important than that is a sense of maturity we can't behave like some students inside a classroom where I abuse you you abuse me you record somebody's audio and then you release that audio in the public space and say that you abused and then you claim that you have from this cast you are from this woman it only shows BJP is growing I'll come to


it only shows BJP is growing I'll come to that ma'am how to discipline them it only shows people are fighting for some position some someone is unhappy with some position somebody wants to be a district president uh somebody doesn't want Outsiders to come and take that thing that is a churning up that is happening without this turning we can't go at the same time people also have to do madam in the process they can't damage a party party is bigger than any individual any point of time you have a fight between two different party you release it in tablet unfortunately what has become madam everything has become anomaly when some fellows fight I don't even know who they are I don't even know what they spoke I don't even know which day went out till some media fellow calls me and say Anna some tape for both fellows have abused each other what is your comment I'm like what comment then they say it is all anomaly this is all anomaly this is anomaly sitting


this is all anomaly this is anomaly sitting full-time monitoring Everybody by running some surveillance operation to see who's talking and who is not talking this is DM cases DM cases running a surveillance operation in tamilnadu watch also has come now tell me the story of The Watch this watch has got a big story Madam now DM is it the same watch very much yes same only one watch I'm wearing this watch okay the last many many months now DMK accuses this watch has got some surveillance and I record all videos photos with Boomer I'm traveling it's Rafal watch what do you expect I can't record anything but I'm it's a plane watch so everything comes to this watch now this watch is something which I wanted to wear because I believe something that represents me as a nationalist I always keep doing that I always keep doing that in the ways what I am comfortable this watch is something which I wanted to wear it's a rafale the beauty of this watch is it's like the watches


beauty of this watch is it's like the watches of the Rafael cockpit so what the pilot sees it is designed like that you see a Rafael plane here it is only 500 watches they have made when Rafael plane came out by the salty Aviation so this watch is one I'm wearing nothing great in it just it shows the time and date and everything since I can't be a pilot I'm wearing it out of passion everybody will have some passion for me this passion is this what is the fascination with Rafal not with Rafael a fighter jet fighters probably an Indian identity fighter jet the the day India manufactures our own fighter jet Tejas is just taking off the the day we have a cutting Cutting Edge maybe a fourth fifth generation fighter jet probably I will start wearing that but it's this it's the thing that you're a you know a small town boy now buying an expensive watch so where are you small town you're buying expensive watch is it those


small town you're buying expensive watch is it those watches in crore of course this watch is is a couple of lack watch which I can always buy yeah uh I'm sorry the DMK is image of of me is but anomaly has got two sheep and sitting inside some Village and rearing a sheep that's how I started but as an IPS carrier I want money I I run a farming business now these are some things I can afford a car I can afford a shoe I can afford the clothes or something I can afford it which is which is my means and their logic extension that you can't buy a watch also means that you have to buy a 400 I don't have a problem with anybody wearing anything this show is a 600 rupee Chapel I'm comfortable I'm wearing this Chapel now uh probably I'm wearing some shirt and pant it doesn't necessarily have to wear a one lakh rupee shoe because it's not needed Forum 600 rupee shoes comfortable but watch


not needed Forum 600 rupee shoes comfortable but watch this is something that represents who am I as a person so I'm wearing it but all DMK has to understand I am the probably the first person in India a party in power is asking a common man show the bill which of course I'm showing April the day I start my father yatra I am like Hare Baba till now what it is asked a powerful person government money you are an MLA show Bill how did you get a house disproportionate income I haven't taken a single penny after coming to politics in Tamil Nadu now you want me to show this bill now this is very funny that is what Tamil Nadu politics have come down to me but but having said it it has become a good occasion for me because corruption till now whenever when I talk about political corruption nobody half the people don't listen they're like Tamil Nadu this is par for the course what is new you are talking people have


the course what is new you are talking people have spoken about corruption previously also we have accepted corruption you talk about other things that is Tamil Nadu politics till now after this Raphael watch when I mention I am going to release your corruption on April second week third week when I start this padayatra you will answer to me now corruption has become an issue suddenly after many years they're like what anomaly will release releasing against which minister our ministers will come and press meet and say I don't have anything but if anomaly is releasing I will answer okay so you like ruffling feathers I've seen your press conferences also you don't hesitate in doing this one-on-one combat with some journalists also isn't it only with agenda journalists I have a problem with them because they they belong to a particular party they can't put party's ideology in a press speed they say there is okay with asking a question okay with we having an agreement or disagreement having a discussion but continuous party


agreement or disagreement having a discussion but continuous party line plus people will defend only uses right to me they don't understand it is my comment it is a view of the party the Press people initially in Tamil a lot of the fights that you have seen they will defend only is right I'm like you have a you have a stand it's fine media can always have a stand but this press conference is me giving you my standard the party stand you should listen you can't debate and argue with me that your stand is powerful than my stand so this is where many disagreements come because they come from a particular television channel which is owned by a political party you know one more thing I want to talk to you about I'm I can't let you go before that is about women's issue you know you spoke about how uh karnanindi had said something about Indira Gandhi and you know many times and about uh you know this lady who was dismissed from your party who said that there


who was dismissed from your party who said that there is no scope for women in the party you had recently said about a certain Law and Order situation you said give me seven days and I can solve this crime if given a chance it regarded a woman uh you know a crime against a woman you said this what is in your view uh you know and the other thing which I want to say is that you know in many states it's been proven that women vote uh for uh for the BJP because they are the real La bhartis they are the people who have got benefit by many schemes pro-women schemes of the BJP you know and many of others so now tell me the where do women feature in the bjp's Tamil Nadu unit when you make policies schemes programs your politics personal politics also and bjp's politics where are women in that in the scheme of things for you if we ask any Tamil woman Madam after the demise of Madame jalalitha it is Narendra


demise of Madame jalalitha it is Narendra modiji who is Comfortably feeling that Wacom where women see up to a leader I think women don't accept everybody as a leader Madam for them it is all they have to have certain values which they see in their husband in their father in their household humans are very sensitive they see those qualities in the Prime Minister that Integrity truthness taking care of them as a person will protect them they see all these qualities then motiji occupies that space generally to occupied that space for a long long time in tamilnadu politics for her the biggest voters were woman voters she will sweep upon voting so nobody could touch her for a long time mainly only when women deserted her like when videos were shown about Madame sari or Chapel or something to the elections that they said otherwise they flock towards her so now tamil.bjp has got a responsibility more than ever that the impression that women are coming towards are BJP and Modi


that women are coming towards are BJP and Modi G we have to translate that into words that is our duty having said it madam enough number of women are coming into the party enough number of women are coming into the party uh for the first time in tamilnadu bjp's history we have two women District presidents normally you don't see women District presidents in the field because they have to fight the distinct prisons other people they fight many times it's a fist fight you want DMK fist fight you want polish fist fight uh I've given chance to two women District president in bjp's history and Tamil Nadu your president many people are opposed to me like look you look you're putting women in danger uh they're in a crowd they do all sorts of things so traditionally Tamil Nadu right now admk all district presidents are male DMK all Disney presidents are male always male it's a history in Tamil Nadu where I've made two women District presidents in BJP


where I've made two women District presidents in BJP who had a district unit I called both of them I said look this is strange because in Tamil Nadu you go to any office there are women working there there are scientists women scientists women teachers uh every job but how come in politics women are there as vice president women are there a secretary no party gives a chance in Tamil Nadu to women as a district president Congress all and male Weck all are male communist all are male we are the only party two month president a lot of people within BJP opposed me they said you can't do that but here it is all very aggressive politics pushing pulling happens you are putting women in danger I call both the ladies I said look I want to trust you seeing your performance I have to convince the other senior leaders and other people next 10 women we are pushing 15 women we are pushing because when women are voting for you when women are not in the field


voting for you when women are not in the field how will they get connected to the party now I am happy to say this two women among the 66 are the top 10 outstanding performers one lady has got a child who studying in college the other person has got a school going boy but both give 16 hours to the party they are always in the field travel plan places you should do a story on of them sometime specifically this part Madam it's very inspiring we do everything because I believe we are preparing preparing the Mind women BJP State Vice President we have four women but it is not about four women a state vice president it is important 50 percent of women District presidents are there that is important they are the people who connect the office bearers don't connect office bearers are here to do politics in Chennai and other big cities these people are daily there they lead a team they form both committees they go we have done it and that is my vision for the state having said it


that is my vision for the state having said it madam I don't want to push it too much also because it's a male dominated politics these two have created that first break now the male District presidents when we do a displacement meeting these are the only two men who sit inside that Hall 64 males sit with them in other places it is 100 male now the when they speak Politics the males also initially their mindset is like women outcome what do they know now they are like oh they're speaking now they are like oh they speak they are among they are equal to me so we are breaking the general traditional male mindset this is a very hard work I'm not very easy though I can talk very easily in a podcast with you and go but I I really complement both the two women because to change the mindset is very important they are fighting in the district with 99 males they are the only female there so this is something at the same time inside the party also why I suspend


the same time inside the party also why I suspend somebody why we take action against somebody as a party Madam because we believe people should allow talent to flow BJP cannot be a closed party somebody cannot say in the party that I will block somebody's growth I'm here for this many years this cannot happen this is very wrong approach and we are we are telling you very Dynamic approach you you want to bring about you got to hello Madam I have to take some hard decisions at some point of time maybe we take some I've taken very little discipline reaction that is my last resort I do a lot of communication one-to-one talking coaching delegating we do all those things as your IPS training help in that to take these hard decisions when it when it comes to hard Nation I'm not very afraid to take it Madam because I want to send a message to the whole party but we are doing because I am doing this Sanam like an urgent Mission Madam you don't catch it now


an urgent Mission Madam you don't catch it now you'll never catch it again I can also comfortably sit in the chair wait for 10 years and allow Somebody to Die Another another wake-up to create and do it I somehow believe we have already missed the first vehicle the 2017 wake-up that got created after Madam's demise three four years that happened I have a feeling that somehow we have missed it now missed it that point of time the vehicle is still there it doesn't close the gap before somebody emerges as a leader politics you got to go catch it and come Madam so people say Anonymous is very aggressive anomaly is fast anomaly is doing this the reason madam I believe you don't do it now you will not get that chance politics is just the time Modis is ninth year into his prime ministership tenth year Tamil Nadu people are seeing they have seen modiji for nine years we have to translate that into votes now I keep drilling into our party man


into votes now I keep drilling into our party man also come on guys this is the time let us function like a corporate company though we are a political party let us have measurable variables let us reach households because with nine years with modigious PM such a great person sitting in Delhi if we can't change Tamil Minds it's a shame for the party this is my Approach a lot of people say no normally you're too fast you wait for some more time things will happen I'm like 2024 mortgage is 100 going to come it will be a fool of a water to say I am going to vote for some MPE who will not be bjpe knowing fully will Delhi you are going to come it will be a waste of vote I'm saying it is only 16 months Tamil people for the very first time they believe Modi is going to come 2014 they do not have a belief Tamil people Modi are lady 2019 these people did the negative campaigning 2024 very first time


people did the negative campaigning 2024 very first time Gujarat they are seeing they are seeing other states next they will see Rajasthan madhya Pradesh every state coming including Karnataka I'm showing I'm believing it is going to set a very positive narration till 2026 2024 we come inside Madam then we are there we've got to show some MPS inside 2026 build on that and reach it 2024 you miss the bus so for me the sense of urgency the reason I'm in a hurry 2019 you missed the bus you're saying we missed the bus because there was a wake up then so 2024 and 2026 are your two Targets now Target we have to finish the target there's no more extending the target Madam okay this is the time with Moto G nine years now if you can do it I think your name should be changed to annamalai Now isn't it that is why people say I'm I'm people man in a hurry man in a hurry but I have to do it


man in a hurry but I have to do it Madam there's no other option sometime I rub the wrong way some people are uncomfortable with me I try to push some things very fast I I am not like a traditional politician while a lot of things to mature I want to put more firewood and and cook faster but right or wrong that is my style Madam okay all the best to you we look forward to seeing your career pass thank you thank you so much thank you thank you for watching or listening in to this podcast to like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste [Music]


I see India an Ever increasingly powerful country which will surely have a role in any Global issue and has to deal with it partly because it's the presence of the G20 at Brook Bond green Bond James Bond uh so uh he can he can fill a stadium at Prime Minister Modi coming out of the European Union um going through covet and also the consequences of the rise of China mean that the UK is looking at India both countries want to free and open indo-pacific we certainly support uh un's uh India's uh becoming a member of the U.N security Council as part actually of a wider Security Council reform so the institution reflects the reality of today China presents A new challenge for the world it is autocratic and it is expansionist Chinese behavior in relation to Hong Kong as well as in relation to xinchang notice that there is a Gandhi statue in London that tells you something about the UK as somebody who led the movement against uh British rule has now commemorated and


movement against uh British rule has now commemorated and respected and has a statue actually sitting looking at our Parliament prime minister is when he swears the oath to become a member of parliament the book he swears it on is the bhagavad-gita meaning foreign welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is High Commissioner of Britain to India Mr Alexander Ellis he has been the British ambassador to Portugal and Brazil he served under Prime Ministers Boris Johnson and Liz truss and now Rishi sonak joining me in the podcast is my colleague and National bureau chief at Ani Naveen Kapoor thank you very much for being here uh hi commissioner Ellis we are very very happy that you could come you've just returned from Gujarat and we want to know more about what happened at Eden Gardens so let's begin with that thanks very much thank you very much please call me Alex Smith my name um well anyone who comes to India has to have some


well anyone who comes to India has to have some kind of love of cricket and I love cricket and I've played it all my life and when I lived here 35 years ago I used to play it here a little bit as well um and I was invited to play in Eden Gardens just after Christmas um for a sort of uh UK in West Bengal team against Bengal and the UK team and it was fantastic experience um it's in gardens for any Cricket fan now it's a scene of two of England's greatest humiliations number one Ben Stokes being hit for four consecutive sixes so I could stand at the creation and wonder how I could reach the same stand um and secondly Mike gatting losing the um 1987 World Cup final for the real trivia Cricket fans but it was all great experience I love Cricket it it is the center of cricket so that was great just come back from Gujarat uh Gujarat is an important state for us because uh about a third of


important state for us because uh about a third of the British uh Indian Community in the UK is Gujarati and uh there was a big celebration for the 100 Years of uh the birth of Swami uh pramuk who was the man who really inspired the building of the big temple in Easton uh there were British politicians there was that right and there were lots of Brits uh there as well it's a huge event and I was honored to read out a message from his majesty the king um uh to uh to the attendees and there were also messages from both uh prime minister Rishi sunak and the leader of the oppositions kierstamba so it's a big thing for the UK and gujarat's a big State for the UK as well it's why we have a big office there did you eat any of the local Cuisine uh the Tali the Gujarati thali I'm always eating the local Cuisine okay one of the joys of this country is diversity of its food so I'm certainly


is diversity of its food so I'm certainly I I'd certainly ate a few docs I don't know whether that be consider to be particularly uh Gujarati but you know I remember uh going to the other end of India uh we're going to Kerala house in September and having an onam meal okay which had I think 25 different things on the plate um uh well there was no plate of course it was a banana banana leaf yes and eco-friendly eco-friendly and very tasty as well uh and one of the joys of India is its diversity and one of the joys of its diversity is the diversity of its food if you come from the UK your idea about Indian food there's very little relation to what Indian food actually is when I lived here before I realized that and I'm going back to the UK and like a good student at University going uh to eat a lot of different kinds of what we call Curry in the UK and I now realize uh certainly chicken tikka


I now realize uh certainly chicken tikka masala no problem you know delicious I see the guy who plays invented chicken tikka masala died the other day Okay in Glasgow my mother's Hometown and I realized and I realized that that food had almost nothing to do with the food which you eat here one of the many reasons for coming to India and I'm delighted that you visas are back allowing lots more Brits to come to India is so you can eat this huge variety of food aha I'm going to come to the Visa show soon in the podcast but before that uh you know you know I'd like to speak about this the tenure that you've had I mean there have been three changes in prime ministers while you were here there was Boris Johnson Liz truss and now Rishi so now but I would seem that there's an uninterrupted continuity with regards to bilateral relations am I right in saying that yeah I completely agree with Smith I think that coming


yeah I completely agree with Smith I think that coming out of the European Union um going through covet and also the consequences of the rise of China mean that the UK is looking at India uh in a quite a new way and a much bigger way than before uh and so the integrated review which was a strategy document which we produced about two years ago which I was the lead civil servant for really set the course for the UK in relation to India by saying India was going to be one of our top priorities in the world and that's partly because India is going to be one of the three defining countries of the 21st century so I think it's true foreign countries that India is a top priority but the UK has the extraordinary assets of the living Bridge of its uh a diaspora in the UK and so we saw a huge opportunity in India across a wide range of different areas I'm sure we'll come on some of them climate would be well and sustainability another would be defense and


would be well and sustainability another would be defense and security you know there'll be trade and investment and a living bridge and health and research and education is another one all great areas of opportunity and the UK and India it's quite it's a complicated relationship because the history because the Raj no doubt about it but here is the opportunity to look ahead and to invest heavily in that relationship and I agree with you about the continuity and that continuity I think is illustrated by the fact that all three of those Prime Ministers are very interested in India no India visit India want to do more with India what I also see on the side of the Indian government is an interest in working with the UK I'm sure we'll come on to some of the reasons why and how that shows itself but the stars are aligned um uh and they're not always aligned so when they are you need to get on and do stuff and that's what I'm here to do oh hi guys Mr Prime Minister of UK uh yeah


hi guys Mr Prime Minister of UK uh yeah the Indian roots do you think that helps to add some intensity to the relationship let's look at symptom and cause the fact that the prime minister of the United Kingdom uh light dlms outside number length 11th Downing Street when he was a chance to the exchequer uh that he hosts a Diwali reception within I think days of becoming a prime minister of the United Kingdom tells you something about the United Kingdom and how much it's changed over the last generation I talked to some of my most senior contacts and friends here who said to me I could never believe that somebody of South Asian origin could become premise for the United Kingdom well they have and that tells you about the UK and it's not just true in politics I think it's sort of cross-public life one of the former England cricket captains was born in Chennai uh the former president of Royal Society was also a Tamil as well so the UK has changed now


a Tamil as well so the UK has changed now of course uh prime minister Rishi sunak knows India well uh but it is family history partly through his wife as well uh and so he's very interested in India we've already had several engagements uh with Prime Minister Modi they met they spoke on the phone I think twice India's interested in India's interest in UK's interest is still the UK's interest so you know we'll have to find a way to how we achieve those things but it helps enormously when you have somebody who really knows and understands the country and that's an interesting reflection I would say overall of politics in the UK I I say this because I think our politicians have a sort of different Take On The World maybe than a generation ago I'll give you two other examples so we had kemi badenock here recently as the trade secretary the trade Minister Pierce goyal's opposite number and she'd come to kind of give some impetus to the free trade negotiations


of give some impetus to the free trade negotiations and she was brought up in Nigeria uh I think she lived until she was 16. uh she's British uh as rich as soon as I am but she has just a different Take On The World James cleverley our foreign secretary who was here think yeah within days of being reappointed uh his first trip abroad I've been reappointed as foreign secretary was to India to Mumbai and then to Delhi and he uh spent quite a lot of his childhood holidays in Sierra Leone so that's just a different Take On The World I think that has to have some influence in the way you see the world they would have to uh keep track of or they would be aware of the Legacy issues of the relationship but at the same time have a new take I guess on the New Frontiers of this relationship that's right I mean they're all you know British as British as I am but what they do do is see the world in a different way and they also


see the world in a different way and they also see they understand the opportunity which exists in India some of the complexity of India as well and it's extraordinary diversity and they don't need explaining about what India is and what opportunities it provides and that's a great thing if you're doing my job the FDA talks that concluded the sixth round of talks prime minister Boris Johnson had said that by Diwali it should get done but prime minister sunak has said you know has said set aside that date where is it getting stuck and uh when do we see that fructification happening the visit of premise of a trade Mr Kimmy bednock has given some impetus to the talks again we've just conclude the sixth round we plan to do a seventh round in a couple of weeks time in the UK so we are getting towards the end of this negotiation I would say uh We've uh it's a long Ascent up to any mountain and you go through the valley for


any mountain and you go through the valley for a long time then you get up to your base camp and then you have to start to do the short sharp Center that's what I think we're about to try and do both countries want to do a deal I think and that's a big change India did a batch of trade deals about a decade ago I think and then was quite critical of and felt that it hadn't really worked out for it and so it's now restarted with a new policy and you've seen that with Australia and with UAE the UK interestingly in parallel has been doing new trade deals of after leaving the European Union it's not coincidence we've done them with Australia uh gaining close partners with India uh both countries I think are talking to Canada as well uh and I think we'll start to do some negotiations I think with the golf countries as well so actually countries are sort of negotiating with similar countries the issues will come down I think to how much is each side


come down I think to how much is each side prepared to lower their tariffs on some Goods um uh cars for example I was talking to the bridge most motor industry this morning for only it'll be textiles I should think in some clothing uh how much openness can there be on services on the Indian side it's pretty close markets uh can we open it a little bit more because we think that gives opportunities both to India and to the UK India will say well we need to have some uh more opportunities for temporary mobility of workers between Indra and the UK there's quite a lot of that already but I'm sure that they will ask for more and there'll be some other issues around investment protection for example but you can see what those issues are and you then it's right in question down to not just the technical details but the political will so a lot of work has been done we've actually closed over half the chapters and I think we can close some more pretty student visas is that India


can close some more pretty student visas is that India wanting more student Visas so that's a completely separate thing so a trade deal will deal with an issue this won't be the temporary mobility of workers in other words you know can you temporarily send a worker from let's say TCS because they're big investors in the UK from India to the UK how under what conditions can you they do that for how long and so forth can you create uh migratory routes for example temporary migration for uh chefs as a classic one not very often that are specialized yeah yoga teachers might be another which Hindu would be interested in that's an entirely separate thing from student visas okay that doesn't come under the skilled skilled stuff yeah it's about skilled workers now India already gets uh I think over 40 of all of the skilled worker visas which the UK issues go to Indian Nationals so uh you have a lot of Internationals providing very skilled work in the UK by the way I'd like to


work in the UK by the way I'd like to get more um skill Brits coming to India I think there's a lot of opportunity for more people from UK to understand more about the reality of India today but student visas uh is a separate issue outside of Free Trade Agreement and does the patent issue also come in as intellectual property is part of uh the discussion how do you make sure that you have proper uh protection of intellectual property uh that is particularly sensitive in areas like Pharmaceuticals as you'll know India being a great pharmaceutical producer and we're in quite heavy intense discussions with the Indian government exactly about that but you have to step back and think why do we want to do this deal um there are clear economic benefits our own work shows that I think we published at the beginning of last year as we launched the negotiations um some figures about how much rgdp would benefit how much growth we would benefit and I think that's also true for India as well so there


think that's also true for India as well so there are economic benefits there are benefits about supporting the flow of talents and ideas between the two countries I think there are also strategic benefits both countries want to free and open indo-pacific both want to increase trust between the two countries India sees a big opportunity and I think in being an alternative supplier to China in some areas and high-end manufacturing for example and for that you need access to the UK Market and then we have quite a lot of trust already between our countries an example for example the cover Shield vaccine that's at UK India joint production um uh designed in a great University uh in Oxford University and then manufactured put around the world by the serum Institute as well as AstraZeneca but I think we could do more of that I'd like to see where we could do that next and I think of free trade agreement underpins that trust increases that trust and also just brings the two countries closer together in his first major foreign policy


countries closer together in his first major foreign policy speech uh prime minister sonak had an interesting perspective on indo-pacific and China you just mentioned in the Pacific uh he said and I'm going to quote uh by 2050 the indo-pacific will deliver over half of global growth compared with just a quarter from Europe and North America combined that's why we're joining the trans-pacific trade deal and the cptpp delivering a new FDA with India and pursuing one with Indonesia unquote and he was a very explicit in the words he chose about China and he said I quote we recognize China poses a systemic challenge to our values and interests a challenge that grows more acute as it moves towards even greater authoritarianism unquote if you could break down on India Pacific and then China because even the Indian leadership hasn't used such strong words about China sure China presents A new challenge for the world it is very powerful uh second biggest economy but it may become the first biggest economy that may not this is


the first biggest economy that may not this is autocratic it is a technological superpower no doubt about that um and it is expansionist and if you're sitting in Delhi you know that better than if you're sitting in the UK or in the UK uh China has big impact but it also has a bigger impact in India where you share such a long border many of the problem with the global problems can't be solved without China climate change would be one pandemic preparedness would be another so how do you work with a increasingly wealthy powerful technologically highly sophisticated autocracy there's no model for how you do this this isn't the Cold War it's something different and so countries I think tried to deal with China both in some cases with cooperation say on climate change for example and India does that as well with China sometimes confronting where we have differences of values and that's why the UK's policy on China has evolved is because of Chinese behavior in relation to Hong Kong as well


of Chinese behavior in relation to Hong Kong as well as in relation to xinjiang and occasionally um challenging as well so this is a shared Endeavor and I think the UK and India share that endeavor now it's a great time to be Indian in my view because you have this fantastic opportunity ahead of you over the next Generation I feel that urgency as well in India about you know this is a great moment for India but you're doing it in a context which is not benign where you have greater challenges to open free trade in the indo-pacific and you know the indo-pacific will be the center of the world over the next 50 years or so and how do you do that well do you think you do that with more friends if we've learned one thing from uh the Russian invasion of Ukraine which we happily talk about you need friends a Ukraine has friends Russia doesn't really um and those friends can help you and India is a mighty country it's going to get bigger but I think it


it's going to get bigger but I think it sees the opportunity of having better relationships with friends with different countries in its neighborhood that's why you have to quad but also with the UK and some other countries as well I want to ask you what you spoke about human rights um and uh China uh how do you see the situation in Tibet uh and uh you know about China holding human rights in its in in that region because Suddenly It's it's no longer an issue I mean suddenly or over the years it's just gone into the background as far as the world opinion is concerned well human rights abuses uh exist in many parts of the world and they need to be challenged and there are different ways which you can try and do that um and I think for a while we thought in the west uh that as China grew it would become more liberal very crudely um I think that was a misjudgment uh it was uh uh uh misjudging which many countries made and it's turned


uh misjudging which many countries made and it's turned out not to be the case at least under Xi Jinping and I should emphasize the law says an element of xinji Ping's changer as well which is a different kind of China where you instead of having a leadership which lasts for 10 years and then you change over you would now have somebody who looks like they're going to be in power for a lot longer and that's a new world as well um uh for us in relation to China so and we do call out those abuses we did in Hong Kong obviously that has a particular sensitivity for the UK because it used to be a British sovereign territory and we have uh allowed a lot of people from Hong Kong to come into the UK part in response to that so I think we do call out those abuses um the effect of doing so you can argue um although we were able to do things in the case of Hong Kong to facilitate people coming to the UK um which


to facilitate people coming to the UK um which I think will be of enormous benefit to the UK as well but this is going to continue to be a problem um and something which I think we we the UK we India we're going to have to find out ways of identifying pointing to it and trying to change it but it's a hard thing to do so as you said that China will be a big Challenge and uh you said you use the word expansionist we have seen the big fights between India and China oflet in Galvan and now recently in arunachal how do you look at the approach taken by India in this matter and also do you see when you say that you should have friends are you also suggesting some kind of a military alliance with the Western Powers with India to counter China I was careful not to use the word Ally because I think you know it's about friends and about making sure that you have friends who can support and it's interesting to see for example how


can support and it's interesting to see for example how that friendship evolves we've just had I think for the first time for the first time in a very long time a British naval ship in the Andaman Islands uh now it's a very sensible territory for India and not surprisingly considering it's geographical location but I think there's great interest of more cooperation between the Indian Navy and the UK Navy we saw that when we bought the aircraft carrier here in October 2021 with a sort of multinational um uh uh supporting ships as well and more work on Maritime domain awareness for example more understanding of what's going on in The Wider Indian Ocean is something which the UK India are working together closely on I think the land situation is a bit different in India very experience in dealing with the land situation I think it tends to tackle that itself but we are all in our different ways having to work out what you do with the Xi Jinping China at some points you are


the Xi Jinping China at some points you are working together we do work together in some areas I don't want to dismiss that but it's a different world and I think the world I started in in diplomacy in 1990 so it's when I start to joined the Foreign Service just after the collapse of the Berlin Wall was an incredibly optimistic time and I think we are in more of an era of real politic and of great power competition than we were then and yet some things never change because since the 90s we've been wanting India's been wanting to be a permanent member of the U.N security Council China will continue to oppose is there any recalibration is there any changes there more muscle that the rest of the world can add for India to be part of that we certainly support uh un's uh India's uh becoming a member of the U.N security council's part actually of a wider Security Council reform so the institution reflects the reality of today changing those institutions is hard we


reality of today changing those institutions is hard we need to make them work some of them come from straight after the second world war like the UN and the U.N security Council some come later like the World Trade Organization created really the kind of apogee the Zenith of globalization the mid 90s um and where we want to work more with India actually to make that a more effective Institution um where we can let's try to make things better I'll give you one example which is in the international financial institutions another product of the under second world war now we need to keep adapting those to the reality of today and we want to work on more with India on that so for example they are lending more in some of the countries where we're going to need a greater support for example small island states which are particularly vulnerable where we find other ways that they can increase their impact around the world but it's hard work changing multilateral institutions is hard work what we're seeing is the creation of sometimes new institutions


we're seeing is the creation of sometimes new institutions which starts more but may grow I'll give you one example the um uh the uh on the disaster resilient infrastructure cdri created by India with big UK support and we were the joint co-chairs to launch the institution and that's trying to deal with a problem of today and tomorrow which is how do you create more disaster resilient infrastructure around the world but I think particularly in the Pacific region of small island States and you started the international solar Alliance as well in the um Paris climate change conference so you can create some new stuff you can try and see a broad and remodel some old stuff and you do a bit of kind of mini lateralism as well a quad would be an example of that uh messy lateralism you sometimes but working but I think India will increasingly be part of all of those things and as including as a partner say with UK and India but with some other countries where we're trying to solve particular problems the war


where we're trying to solve particular problems the war in Ukraine it's brought about unexpected changes as far as countries um you know they've had to recalibrate their foreign policy perspectives uh they've got to see the impact it has had on each of their Nations before they can decide on a group reaction so how is it impacted Britain how do you see that President Putin's invasion of Ukraine uh totally unprovoked is having a global impact I think it's impacting every country to be honest because of its consequences for fuel prices for commodities for fertilizer prices and so forth but it's also having a huge human impact it's having human impact most of all in Ukraine where people are dying um defending their country its impact on the UK is first of all is many things but one of them is an emotional one it is very shocking to have a kind of really you know a direct invasion of one country of another in Europe is something which Europe has this terrible history of the 20th century


Europe has this terrible history of the 20th century of the 1st of the 20th century in particular and it resurrects it brings from the dead those coasts um so it's mostly very shocking secondly it has human impact um we have quite a lot of ukrainians coming to the UK uh we have policy about how you absorb them into the UK uh one of the reasons by the way we were slow in some of our Visa turnarounds last year was because we were focusing and right so on ukrainians who are fleeing the UK fleeing the UK playing Ukraine coming to the UK it has an economic impact it's increased inflation very considerably um uh it increases energy costs it increases uh other kinds of costs as well um it means we are spending quite a lot of money of the development money which we'd like to be spending in some of the poorest parts of the world we're having to spend around Ukraine to support for example the humanitarian crisis which is


to support for example the humanitarian crisis which is caused by Russia's invasion of Ukraine and of course we are supplying uh uh uh weapons to Ukraine to defend its territory so it's having a very considerable impact I'm afraid it also brings home the point I was making earlier that we are at the world of benign worlds in the 1990s is long gone we are in the world of geopolitical competition but I should say this main impact is on the people of Ukraine because they are dying because somebody their neighbor are their autocratic neighbor is trying to take over their country what is the British view about how India is uh is handling the situation is there uh any acceptance rejection annoyance with the way uh the Indian Prime Minister said that war is not a solution and he continues to have talks with uh President Putin sure and I very much agree with what the Indian government said in the U.N security Council very early on which is you need to respect the rule of law the


is you need to respect the rule of law the U.N Charter and territorial integrity and sovereignty now each country then has to work out the best way of how you go about doing that the UK with other countries is doing that through supporting Ukraine to try and resist the Russian invasion uh India's standpoint is a different one and there are reasons for that which I understand and I explained um at the same time we are trying to work with India for example to reduce its dependency on Russian material for its armed forces and we are working to make sure that uh you can create the greatest possible opportunity for a piece but it's going to be a fair piece one which uh you know allows Ukraine uh not uh to have its territory just taken away arbitrarily any kind of deeper partnership which is the one we're trying to create between UK and India you're going to have differences of you the great thing is you talk about those differences and when prime minister Boris Johnson was here he did


when prime minister Boris Johnson was here he did with Prime Minister Modi they had a very interesting Frank conversation about it when our foreign secretary James cleverley was here at the end of October he had a similar conversation so that you do it privately you do it with understanding you understand which other comes from and you see why what you can do together and how you can do it and that's exactly what we're doing because a good deep partnership is not one where you just agree all the time it's one sometimes you are going to disagree but you do that in a way which understands each other's positions and sees what you can do together but don't you think that India's history with Russia our historic relationship uh don't you think that uh like the West is opposing India buying oil from them and India continuing buying Supply arm supplies from the Russia so how do you look at the from the perspective of our you know uh history you're right and it does have a quite different relationship with


right and it does have a quite different relationship with Russia than for example the United Kingdom or many of the countries of Europe or the United States and we know that and we understand why that is what the West is trying to do what the UK is trying to do along with other countries is to end Russia's disastrous and totally destructive invasion of Ukraine how do you do that you try to put some pressure on the Russian economy not so Russia collapses that's in no one's interests um uh but that Russia steps back from this mad um Invasion and desperately harmful invasion that's why uh so what do you what what the UK is doing is trying to create an oil cap for example so that Russia can continue to get all revenues but can't make it you know uh um outrageous profits out of the um out of the situation of the high oil price um and we think that that's the way it's a calibrated way of trying to put pressure on the Russian government but at the


to put pressure on the Russian government but at the same time not destroy the Russian state which we don't want to do we have no interest in doing so India will buy oil India needs to keep inflation down so does the UK we understand that but we want to end this war in a way which uh reduces the harm which Russia is doing not to Ukraine especially but also to the rest of the world there's a narrative in the western press and especially the think tanks they are saying that Indian money is fueling the what is sponsoring this war in a way Russia they're supporting buying oil from Russia is strengthening their economy do you agree with this I don't represent the US I represent the United Kingdom the Western president they represent the Press of any country which is uh our present United Kingdom is joyfully free to say what it wants and it does every day including about uh my own government well I think we need to focus on is how do we get President Putin to stop what


is how do we get President Putin to stop what is a totally unnecessary unprovoked and disastrously damaging uh War um uh and what is the best way of doing that and that's something we talk to all the time to the Indian government as we should but we'll do that you know in private and at all different levels and that is the big question for 2023 but what is clear to me is that we cannot allow an autocratic giant to invade its Democratic neighbor and take its land that is an important Beauty in the other Peacemaker in this I see India an Ever increasingly powerful country which will surely have a role in any Global issue and has to do with it partly because it's the presence of the G20 I think by the way it's great that India is having the presence of the G20 so let's see but first of all we've got to get uh President Putin to stop at the destruction the the war and the destruction of Ukraine uh when we talk about you know earlier


Ukraine uh when we talk about you know earlier in the podcast we were talking about Legacy issues uh with regard to the Cold War and post-gold War World you know uh one of the problems uh problem areas in India UK relationship has been uh many uh British parliamentarians they Advocate the Pakistani cause in the parliament also there are some uh some do-gooders members of parliament who say that they uh unilaterally they offer to mediate between Pakistan and India and say these this is the Legacy see that since we caused the partition it is our duty to mediate between India and Pakistan on Kashmir that obviously is a thorn in the flesh as far as India is concerned nobody likes it out here that Kashmir is discussed in British Parliament we get into one of the things which makes my job interesting and challenging sometimes which is the history of the UK and India and that's a complicated history as a former colonial power the British Parliament is a place where people are free to say what


is a place where people are free to say what they want to say they're elected representatives of people in the United Kingdom uh and they do um oh I always look I would always say look at the British government and what the British government does and doesn't do and the British government has been very careful on this subject um and you were talking about successive Prime Ministers and we've had successive foreign secretaries and uh since in my time here they've been extremely careful about this issue it's not something which uh you know we spent a lot of time discussing with the Indian government and at the same time British parliamentarians will say you know what they want to say just as Indian parliamentarians do as well so is it just politics I think that it is part of the noisy democracy which is the United Kingdom constituency of Puris and the others in those areas I think that they're in the UK's population is getting increasingly diverse um there's no doubt about that if you look


um there's no doubt about that if you look at the data we just had our um 10-year census from England Wales a very useful document that shows the increasing diversity of the UK population um in terms of people born outside the UK in terms of ethnicity as well and in terms of religious diversity as well and so it's not surprising that our Parliament reflects that diversity it happens in India too we have a kind of a diverse population maybe not people of ethnic or origin from outside our geographical borders but within the country we have that diversity but when it when it comes to foreign policy there's there's rarely any dissonance sometimes yes with regard to neighbors but in the British Parliament what we get to see is talking about uh decisions which are taken in India for example what happened in Kashmir the abrogation of the article so this is discussed and as a as somebody who was part of your Colonial past we don't like it that you know


Colonial past we don't like it that you know it's that it's still being discussed as if we are still a vassal state well at 75 years since Independence I think we we've all moved on in lots of ways I completely understand why people don't like it uh but I also like the freedom of speech um and the Democracy which exists inside the United Kingdom what I'll always say to anybody is look at what the British government does and what the British government says uh and they're very careful on this issue and what we really focus on is all the things we should construct together but I understand the the you know about the freedoms whether it is the media or whether it is politicians uh being a democratic Nation we do have those demonstrations which happen out here where flags are burned by protesters and all but it's taking increasingly violent turns whether it is um pro-pakistan elements in London or pro-kalistan elements you know vandalizing the high commission or uh or the


know vandalizing the high commission or uh or the Gandhi statue these things are happening and it it's it's in and they get they fund uh the separatist movements in India that's not that's not just Freedom it's misusing the freedom isn't it so where um there is misuse in the sense of criminal Acts or we will act as we always will to ensure that less proper protection for example of diplomatic premises um by the way I noticed that there is a Gandhi statue in London that tells you something about the UK uh that uh you know somebody who led the movement uh against uh British rule has now commemorated and respected um and has a statue actually sitting looking at our Parliament I think that tells you something about the UK and its own debate about its past so when there are criminal acts we'll always deal with them um and we do and we talked it in government a lot about that I don't know whether it's increasing I might challenge you on


know whether it's increasing I might challenge you on that I'm not sure if there's evidence that there is um and on the very large hole the United Kingdom is a peaceful country in which there's plenty of noisy debate but people respect the law when they don't we need to act as we have in the case for example of some of the disturbances which took place in Leicester where there have been plenty of arrests as a result of that and actually one or two convictions as well already our legal system can move quite fast in their circumstances but overwhelmingly as the United Kingdom comes becomes more diverse it's of enormous benefit to my country so there was also a task force formed by the government uh do you think it has helped you know bringing down these incidents we cooperate a lot with the uh with the Indian government uh where we see uh threat and risk to both countries um and in fact we exactly your rights are mentioned as part of the roadmap agreed between prime


mentioned as part of the roadmap agreed between prime minister Boris Johnson and Prime Minister Modi in Spring of 2021 we created task force which were now sort of getting operational uh to look at where there are risks to both countries uh because the executive governments have every interest Incorporated on this on National Security matters yeah including on extremism um and dealing with extremism okay uh you know increasingly one sees that uh their their merry fugitives uh from India who are in Britain whether it is Malia or niram Modi uh will you be sending them back so I won't get into the particular cases although I know that there are some very sensitive cases um in in India um the UK let's separate different things so the UK government can order an extradition and has done so in some of the most sensitive cases indeed has done so several years ago any decisions in that area are digestible before a British Court um and so they are um and so it's really now a question


they are um and so it's really now a question of what the legal system does and how quickly the legal system works um and they are going through that process um as I've heard uh our former prime minister Boris Johnson say before the wheels of Justice turned slowly but they do turn what the UK government has no interest in is becoming a place in general for financial future tips that is not in our interest we don't want that and that's why we take the decisions we do but ultimately those decisions are challenged upon the court and the courts are going through their process so this economic offenders and then there are former Prime Ministers of Pakistan who find refuge in London what is it about London that attracts people like Benazir Bhutto zardari nawash Sharif altaf Hussein I think the best thing to do is be ask the 127 000 people who got a student visa from India last year why do you want to go to the UK because it's a great place to be is that the


because it's a great place to be is that the only reason or is there it's a great place to be UK is a great place to be you've been there yourself uh it's an excellent place to be what might be true for a former leader might be true for an aspiring student as well why is it that they find safety there is it because it's safety in numbers then they don't find they don't decide to go to Switzerland or to to the US but it's there well I'm not there to answer for the personal decisions of uh former politicians from any parts of the world but the UK is a safe country um it has an excellent rule of law uh which applies uh to everybody um and those are great things one of the things about the living Bridge as Prime Minister Modi calls it is it has a huge flow of great people and then maybe wanted people who might you know you might not want in the in the United Kingdom are making a general Point not a specific point


Kingdom are making a general Point not a specific point to anybody there um and then the rule of law when the rule of law in the supply needs to apply and it does apply and again things go through our courts but it's a great country and it attracts people from all over the world and I'm delighted that it does I want to go and move to G20 sure and uh what is Britain's expectation of G20 and India hosting G20 it's a big challenge I'm really pleased that India has the presidency of the G20 you had I think hush Wrangler the other day because India is a powerful country an increasingly powerful country and as we were discussing earlier it's a country which has the ability to talk to many different countries and I think that's extremely useful at the moment because you're in a world in which there are huge Global problems we talked about climate changes sustainability we could talk about public health as well and at the same time it's a very divided world the


the same time it's a very divided world the world of the era of geopolitical competition so you're having to deal with big problems where you have a very fractured uh a group of countries but India I think has the convening power to bring those countries together to try and work its way through now the Indian presidency is very ambitious and we dab count as a G20 semper is very ambitious and that flows from Prime Minister Modi um to try and tackle some of the world's big problems and for example on development and how you do development in the future how does technology play a role in development it's also an opportunity to tell the story of India and the story of new Indian and Modern India so I'm glad that India's got uh the um the presidency and we will support it absolutely to try and find answers to those those questions but it's a tough ask there's a high ambition there's it's a tough ask at the same time what is prime minister uh Rishi


the same time what is prime minister uh Rishi sonak's visit to India whenever that happens what is that going to be like well I hope very much we might have a prime minister body visit to the UK as well I think because he was he was an absolute hit when he came uh last time and I I remember uh actually I remember when it was with I then Prime Minister David Cameron talks about uh Brook Bond green Bond James Bond uh so uh he can he can fill a stadium at Prime Minister Modi amongst many other things I think that there's enormous interest in prime minister Rishi sunak in India yeah you'll tell me yeah because absolutely that's why uh you know both because of his family heritage by East Africa um and uh because uh through his wife therefore his knowledge of India remember this is a man who when he swears the oath to become a member of parliament the book he swears it on is the bhagavad-gita yes um uh tells you something about


bhagavad-gita yes um uh tells you something about uh the UK parliament of today to go back to what you were asking me earlier so uh I hope he'll come he's a busy man um he's got some issues to deal with at home uh uh but I I would presume that around the G20 Summit he would come here um but I what I'd like is you know we had a terrific launch of a new partnership two years ago a little new relationship we're trying to create between two countries Boris Johnson and Prime Minister Modi we're then delivering that and we've got the Free Trade Agreement coming towards you know it's climax I hope in the in the coming months we have a lot more cooperation defense and security we have the Living Bridges issues I talked about where a huge increase in number of visas issued to Indian Nationals and I'd like to bring that back all back together and so I'm all like any High commission I'm looking for that opportunity when I can bring the


looking for that opportunity when I can bring the leaders together to talk about those things but you know it's quite a thing when the Prime Minister UK is lighting the deal lamps outside uh in Downing Street so you know how important is personal chemistry between prime ministers like you've you've had a long uh career in diplomacy from the 90s you've seen so many prime ministers interacting with each other you've been on the you know on the sidelines and watched all these Summits how important is that personal chemistry I think it is important because every prime minister has a very crowded agenda there are a thousand one things they have to do at the same time and one of the things about governing is choice you know where do you focus on and the fact you have a prime minister in the UK who knows India well and understands the opportunity which India provides is uh good news as far as I'm concerned uh I also think that I prime minister money in primary and the Prime Minister


prime minister money in primary and the Prime Minister Richardson so talk each other in a particular way because of that understanding so we'll see as I say uh for example the Free Trade Agreement uh in the negotiation is a tough negotiator so I think UK negotiators are tough negotiators as well so there are still material interests but knowledge and understanding and focus I think can be affected by uh that um that bilateral the relationship the human relationship as a career Diplomat in the job I mean you you've got a legacy you've got so many high commissioners before you as a career Diplomat when you look back uh and you see uh your predecessors what new thing do you bring to the table what new vision what are the golden rules of any job is never speak about your predecessor your successor or whatever but I think I'm doing my job for my success as successor uh things take a while in India you know it's a 10-year job and so I am benefiting from some of


job and so I am benefiting from some of the work done by my predecessors I'll give you an example the agreement on the mutual recognition of qualifications academic quality applications really important between the UK and India signed last year after about a decade of trying the agreement reach between the Indian government and can energy the company who had assets expropriated over 10 years ago that's a decade's worth of work so what I need to do is to sow those seeds for the next uh for the very successive successor and I think we want to do that and the environment and climate change I think we want to do that through a free trade agreement if we can and some new trade deals these are things which are going to have long-term benefits so when you when you get to know that when a career Diplomat in the UK gets to know that he's posted to La oh he or she is posted to London what is uh to uh New Delhi what is the reaction how does one well my reaction is


is the reaction how does one well my reaction is to put my shirt over my head and run around the room with joy it was fantastic I was so happy as I said I lived here a long time ago I was a teacher in indoor in 1986 and I traveled around all of the north of India for most of the year so I was just incredibly happy it's materially one of the most important countries for the UK I would say in top five in the world for the UK I think that's even more true as a result of having left the European Union and China which puts an even sharper focus on India and also because of India's own rise which will continue over the next Generation so there are kind of solid material Marxist reasons if you like for a strong UK into your relationship there's a uniqueness of the living Bridge with all its good and sometimes It's Tricky bits we talked about those in this podcast but on the whole it's a great thing I mean it's a great thing


a great thing I mean it's a great thing to see the diversity of talented success of people of South Asian origin in the UK and you speak the language because you've been here um um like in slow progress no no no and not many people know he sings very well too sir please uh yes I have heard a small song for us you must be joking but the um each week I try to watch some of a Hindi movie uh to try and improve my Hindi uh any recommendations by the way from listeners today Golden Globe so I have to yes well at the moment I'm listening to Del City It's a Wonderful AR rahman's a fantastic composer actually and I listen to him singing live and I I thought he was wonderful so um I tried to I do my you know sort of study every day I have a class every week I try to listen to some um uh Hindi movies um all of that helps with the kind of pleasure of being in this country uh it's


of pleasure of being in this country uh it's just you need Seven Lives to begin to understand this country um but I'm only on two years in and but having the comparative 1986 helps a bit because you see both some of the things which remain the same about India and some of the things which have changed enormously in 1986 there was a maruti and that was about it you know my life was spent drinking limca thumbs up and gold spots I have not turned into a diabetic as a result of that I don't know um uh but it's a very different place than Subways but it's a very old old civilization as well and that doesn't change 1986 is when we didn't even have economic liberalization as you said just the maruti that's right and we were just and the throes of the khalistani movement yeah Punjab separatism you're absolutely right because I remember at the time I I traveled all over the country all over the north um and uh I couldn't get into uh


the north um and uh I couldn't get into uh the punch-up at that time and people said you just had to go straight through I was taking some epic bus Journeys I took the bus bus from Delhi to Srinagar at that point srinica was completely open um uh beautiful Kashmir is the most beautiful place and I could I spent about a month it's still open yeah but it's harder now um uh uh really well compared to 1986 I think yeah the militancy had it because Focus was very uh very much about Punjab and I had to go straight through it I couldn't stop I couldn't see the Golden Temple now for fantastic we went to the golden temple uh I went to Chandigarh um so uh it is a very different place but a very similar place at the same time really yeah okay that's what most people say about India that some things just don't change and uh some things are so radically different yeah it's a more urban place it's a more evidently


a more urban place it's a more evidently entrepreneurial place you see it remains a very young place it's developed a lot since 1986 you can see that in all sorts of ways of course my vantage point is different in 1986 I was sitting uh usually on the roof of a very crowded bus or a train uh now I travel a bit more Comfort but it remains it's incredibly interesting the depths of culture is extraordinary unlike no other country it's why I think why India has such a great Cuisine because I think that reflects the depth of its culture yeah in Portugal and Brazil before uh yes spent plenty of time in Brussels as well and a bit a bit of time in Spain um and Brazil and India for example are very different countries but there's actually two and a half times the size of injured land mess but as noisy as India uh when you're in carnival in kind of it's pretty noisy but India provides Brazil and India have some similarities an extraordinary quality


Brazil and India have some similarities an extraordinary quality and stimulation of its popular culture dance visual arts Sports uh but Brazil doesn't have Cricket okay right you know when we when uh the other reporters uh in our office got to know and they and I got to know that you're coming in here there was it you've got to ask that running joke that everybody talks about that uh you know when you go to a British museum it's like a crime scene all our artifacts are there please ask him when is it gonna come back to India so I said okay will do I'm asking you now when is it coming back UK is a global country and it has the heritage of a global country including its museums and I'm delighted our museums are such fantastic places and some of the most visited places in the world there is now much more of a debate in the UK about its Imperial past that's only a recent thing I think you know I studied history I was a history teacher my father


I studied history I was a history teacher my father was a history teacher my grandfather both my grandfathers lived in India are both in the Army my grandfather was in the Punjabi Army in the 60s Punjabi regiment um stationed up in the Northwest Frontier then I think in Pune then became a history teacher it's great to see that debate really kicking off in the UK about its Imperial past uh and there's some great podcasts around it don't listen to uh the rest is history and also to Empire which has Anita and as well as William darimple herself a product of a living Bridge um satnam sangira's book about uh uh Empire land again he's a product of of the living Bridge um are beginning to stimulate that discussion now part of that is a very political discussion I'm a civil servant I'm not going to get into the politics of that but I noticed for example Glasgow University has just returned some artifacts in the process of returning some artifacts to India


in the process of returning some artifacts to India and that's much more of a live issue than it was now that as I say is very political um and uh but it's not it is now being discussed in a completely different way from when I was a student uncomfortable uh conversations right I mean even at The Family Table these must be uncomfortable discussions um they are all good family tables have uncomfortable discussions I like uncomfortable discussions uh particularly The Family Table and if everybody's a historian in your family then it's all the more right yes uh and my grandfather loved India actually my maternal grandfather so my nana um uh in fact I learned Hindi as a small boy without knowing it my grandfather was a good Scots and my mother's good Scots so to play golf my mother taught me to play golf and as a small boy I used to carry her golf clubs around the golf course in Scotland and she would say go and be my age and I had no idea


go and be my age and I had no idea she was saying I'm saying the wrong accent I go well I had no idea what it meant to know it's so I would go ahead and look for her Ball when she hit it oh wow although she's a very good golfer so it always landed on The Fairway so in fact it has it's funny and my grandfather would talk about a Chota Peg um and so the and you don't realize it how these words and this influence comes into your own life and it's only coming back here but judge regiment you said right yeah he was in the 16th Punjabi Punjab so he would know the Chota Peg of course he would yeah yeah absolutely and uh you know pictures of him I've got pictures for him with his javans and stuff like that and he had a life I remember watching him as a small very small kid I'd watch him when he had his breakfast porridge good Scott again chop up a banana and put it


good Scott again chop up a banana and put it on it habits from India okay so that was unique is it I I you know I um I remember once our first correspondent uh in uh in London uh was a person called Mr Trevor Barnard and I knew that he had been in India and he was like he he studied in England in India but one day I had my baby with me and I was you know I was just rocking him to sleep and I just said and I kept saying that because that's the only duty I knew uh makhan Roti and Chini right so that was the only one so he was sitting in front of me and says why didn't you sing the complete uh one so I said what so he says I just looked at him and I said how do you know and Trevor who went to London after who went back to England after Independence um in 48 or 49 he went back and he said it's just come back to me my nanny used


it's just come back to me my nanny used to say this in Patna in Bihar when he was a baby so you're talking about like I don't know 20s or 30s and it just came back to him and he knew the entire one and I didn't yeah so these are our legacies you know which new generations would probably not remember this at all you have experienced this with your grandfather and it crops up in so many ways George Orwell being born in um Bihar I think it was um the other day uh very sadly a great singer of of my youth Terry Hall the specials which is a great band when I was growing up died it reminded me that Jerry damus who was really the guy who was the inspiration for a lot of the music I listened to when I was uh growing up was born in Ooty um his father was a thicker there so you just have these human relationships I think one of the things I'd like to do is to get


of the things I'd like to do is to get more Brits to come to India now I think you have many many people I mean you're going to the UK students are skilled workers as visitors as well as tourists uh but I'd like to get more Brits to India because I think that Brits need to see the reality of India Today is it well when I bring a minister to Hyderabad for example which we did a few months ago you know he was just bowled over by what he saw yeah no idea about the scale of the opportunity in this the dynamism and the change so India is represented abroad in lots of different ways but one I think I think that I would like British people to understand is this is what the reality of India is today going back to having a prime minister who knows that new India that's an enormous help I have to ask this question another question which I was told you must ask he's not going to answer it but ask it nonetheless so


not going to answer it but ask it nonetheless so I am going to ask you about it what is it the the hullabaloo over Harry and Megan and the soap opera that's happening I don't know whether you want to answer this will you answer it I'll leave that to read it's like books and viewers of the crown and the many other things that go on it's like a joint family Indian joint family Hindu joint family or even a Muslim joint family of India it sounds like that it looks like that everything about it is is just that I'm quite sure that uh exactly for those reasons the Indians would be able to give a particular take and perspective do people ask you about that when you move around in in India they do a bit odd so much actually um uh but I appreciate it something of global interest in UK's constitutional monarchy has been for many many centuries um and it is a subject of enormous interest uh I think to the world it's interesting you raise the


I think to the world it's interesting you raise the monarchy I mean the queen sadly died last year uh and you now have King Charles uh the third as uh is most King Charles I thought as Harmonic and there is somebody who's visited India many times many many times enormous interest in Indian culture um uh enormous interest uh in all many aspects of Indian culture and interestingly when each year in the UK uh the Monarch gives an address to the nation on Christmas Day and I noticed this was the first address by uh his majesty the king that he referred he's the he is the the head of the of the Anglican church but he referred in his address to gurudwara's and to Temples amongst other places which were supporting British life that tells you again something about the changes in my country two questions I want to ask uh one uh like you said Mr sunuk there's a huge interest here can you give us a sense of what how UK looks at the new India as you


what how UK looks at the new India as you said and modi's policy you know how UK is looking at it and as an ambassador as a High Commissioner how what is your evaluation of so I won't get into that you know the internal engine politics uh I'll leave that to uh to to India what I I will say is the enormous interest in India in the UK uh full of reasons we've talked about because I mean you're going back to what you were quoting uh prime minister Industries India Pacific will be really the center of global growth India will be one I think one of the three defining countries of the 21st century uh and with an enormous potential I mean the next 25 years I think can be great ones for India and India's already on that path towards being a much bigger economy um and it already has a big impact in the UK partly through the diaspora party and that's the cultural ways whether dare I said chicken tikka masala hopefully I thought


I said chicken tikka masala hopefully I thought some other some other dishes as well uh and partly in other ways so I think the UK sees a huge opportunity for a deeper UK India partnership what's interesting to me is I think India sees a positive Potential from on the other way as well about a close relationship with the UK so but I want that story to be told more I want people to understand and see what's going on and into the reality of India today you live it every day here I live it to an extent every day here but I would like more people exposed to it that's why it's great by the way that now India's reopened e visas for Brits because that's going to stimulate many more people to come here and I said the economy is very badly hit by the war Ukraine Russia War sure we are also reading a lot of stories about UK economy getting a very very bad Hitman inflations are going up so how is UK tackling that and


going up so how is UK tackling that and uh do you see similarity between the Indian economic position and your position right now well the two economies obviously have very different sizes and structure I mean uh GDP in ahead and India is about 20th at the UK but the economy is 20 times the size so India is now overtaking UK in terms of global total size of the economy and that's a great thing I mean it's a thing massively in the UK's interests the war is having an effect on the UK and I think it's admirable the UK despite those effects is determined to you know defend Ukraine um and its territory against the uh President Putin's invasion it means we have to face some tough choices our prime minister Rishi sunak actually beginning of this year has really set out what he's trying to do you know to grow the economy half inflation uh tackle illegal migration which we talked about earlier as well so it will be quite an important year for the UK


it will be quite an important year for the UK but I think it's also a reason why you want to have that closer UK India relationship because I think having a free trade agreement for example means you can stimulate both economies having the cooperation on climate change means you're going to do it in a sustainable way because that is one of the great challenges of our time is how we India's Got This fantastic growth opportunity but doing it sustainably is going to be one of the great challenges for India and what happens in India will affect all of the world that is the scale of India now so working together on that but at the same time making sure we're more secure that's the era of geopolitical competition you want the growth you want it sustainable and you also want it secure and that's why I think the defense and security Corporation will matter much more so we have all of this history and it's complicated sometimes as we've discussed but you want to be building for the future


discussed but you want to be building for the future all the things we need to do over the next 25 years and I think that's that is exactly what I think Prime Minister Modi and prime minister Richie sunac wants to talk more about in conclusion uh hi commissioner I just want to ask you because you know I've never got you to call me Alex today not one day I will uh you know 80s and 90s you've seen India then as far as foreign policy is concerned it it used to bother India that India was looked at with the prism of Indo Park always India Pakistan and from then we've moved to 2000s 2023 to now now it's become India China everything that happens here is with that Chinese perspective so uh do you see this always this hyphenation when it comes with India I think it's India in the world you're absolute writer has been a dehyphenization of India and Pakistan and there's been a bit of a of a changing of the last letter from K


a of a changing of the last letter from K to C in the Pacific into pack but actually I think it's India in the world I think India's impact in the world is so much greater now uh partly through just Internationals all over the world partly through what happens in India will affect the world on climate change um on health for example and that is that's the reality we're in now and that's a challenge for a country which is still going through a huge phase of Economic Development which I think will on the next 25 years but it's also the great opportunity and that's why I think a country like the UK fifth sixth bit largest economy in the world uh still with a country with unusually large Global interests Marston will work with India but it's great time it's a great time to be doing this because there is a lot of opportunity amidst all of them many challenges and I think that prime minister mode is very good at seeing as he has over climate change how do


at seeing as he has over climate change how do you turn that into an opportunity and I think that's something for the UK as well you know uh High Commissioners has a has a lovely Indian dog I saw he is such a gorgeous Beast she is she is sorry she is a lovely rample Hound uh beautiful dog um uh and uh just a joy an absolute wonder that prime minister modi's been saying that we should Indians should you know adopt Indian dogs Indian breeds and here you have the High Commissioner has an Indian breed dog and she's she's gorgeous she's really cute she is absolutely gorgeous and she certainly won't be part of any uh trade deal is all I could say she's doing absolutely with us but if there's somewhere as part of that James trade deal we can get desperate boomera to come to the UK look at that now you drive a hard bargain don't you what a talent though thank you very much for being part of this podcast thank


you very much for being part of this podcast thank you we look forward to having you here again soon after the G20 thanks very much indeed thank you thank you for watching or listening into this podcast do like and subscribe on whichever Channel you have heard this or seen it namaste thank you [Music]