right height right and so family and pediatric when they look at the social media I should look like this they should know they have got some strength and some weaknesses if we overdo the things right then you'll end up in problem so why it is happening because of social media everybody comes to know that 40 year man 27 year old man is a popular I died because of exercise and gyming now that is the undue pressure over that guy he he tried to become uh try to match some other person but he forgets his own capabilities strength and weakness right so that is the problem so you try for 20 30 years you were just a sedentary person suddenly because of social pressure you start looking okay 22 kilometers but if you are forgetting he has got different genetic makeup I put different genetic makers right my capability for 30 years I was just a sedentary worker all of a suddenly so this uh this is going to happen so that will help so one should know their limits so it


will help so one should know their limits so it should not try to match some other person and one last point I want to add genetic is something that is poured in in the Medical Science and money diseases in many patients who have got some death unknown death in the family they should counsel the genetic genitist and they will get you the idea okay you can get sequencing genomic sequencing or something so so that we can predict that you have also got some problem which can lead to sudden death like cuties and from some problem in the ECG some problem in the heart which is not apparent but can become apparent if you are exercising if your stress in the stress so probably we should consult a doctor if something has happened in your family like a young person has died and that will help you in future Dr Dang then who should one go to like if as Dr Gupta said that you know you're feeling you're feeling this uh that so and so has uh your cousin or


that so and so has uh your cousin or your sibling or somebody has passed away due to a heart related issue you need to go to your GP how do you get to know that it's a genetic disorder or whatever so a genetic disorder essentially can either be lifestyle related like doxa was saying cvd that's a cardiovascular disease or it can also be what is actually more known to science today is an oncology ailment that someone's had in the family especially if if someone's had a breast cancer or there's a male who's had a colon cancer then obviously our oncologist will guide you in a lifestyle disease your physician will guide you you to go go to a suitable person a person who can tell you exactly about the diagnosis earlier and what test is required for you also there is precision medicine now that is very interesting and as per the makeup of your genes the medication that you are being given will be suitable to that like what Dr Gupta was


be suitable to that like what Dr Gupta was saying now even for diseases like obviously for cancer Etc it is very personalized the treatment depending on the the signature of the cancer and your genes but also apart from that you have even medication for diabetes even other autoimmune disorders where it's actually tailor-made so that it suits you well so this realm of science is called pharmacogenomics so again there is this is this huge area that that is being we are waiting to leverage it so that we can get the maximum benefits from it Dr your hospital where you work the there are thousands of people who come uh every week and you you know literally dozens of patients that you need to see but in spite of telemedicine in spite of us having so many hospitals and all we still have a shortage of doctors in this country we still have patients who have to come in from Villages camp in cities and you know one had thought that things will change but it's still uh


had thought that things will change but it's still uh there it's still that Primary Health Care facilities are there in our Villages but when it comes to you know having these these complicated tests as you were mentioning uh Dr Dang we still need to come to cities the major metros actually the problem is with the primary health what is happening we don't have good infrastructure in The Villages like many of my colleagues I'm 53 so many of my friends now I have settled in Australia Villages they opt to settle in the village you ask your child you ask your you know growing child who is in medical science tell them that go and serve in the village nobody will agree yeah right there is some problem what is a problem you don't have good infrastructure in the village nobody wants to go there now unless we have got very strength and Primary Care will require tertiary case like our Hospital actually if you look at Sri Lanka now they are in a problem due to different reason but


they are in a problem due to different reason but they have got very good Primary Care at primary lab level if you are able to tackle the situation with preventive medicine is always better than it cure better than the Cure you cannot cure most of the disease like even if you are having genetic disease if you have a genetic predisposition for cardiovascular disease but if your lifestyle is perfect right from the infancy then probably despite of predisposition you may not have symptomatology later on right so preventive medication is unfortunately lacking in India at all except few vaccination right so we need to have we need to have good infrastructure in the at the Village level and good infrastructure not MediCal infrastructure I am talking about in general infrastructure wherein person can live suitable life uh Dr Deng corporates are entering into uh you know into the whole Hospital scene and into the diagnostic scene does that mean that this problem which Dr Gupta was talking about where you know in villages


was talking about where you know in villages we don't have Primary Health Care Center do you think that once corporates come in and they're given incentives to set up these uh Primary Health Care Centers and diagnostic Centers do you think things will improve with that absolutely I think more than this being a destination about strengthening time Primary Health Care it's for our country it's going to be a journey and I think a very vital step in that journey is going to be the larger players like these corporate Hospital chains actually penetrating this tier two tier three cities in small smaller areas where there is a dearth of these Primary Healthcare facilities now also what's very important apart from setting up a brick and mortar kind of a structure where there is a suitable doctor and a healthcare staff is also awareness initiatives now also in in rural areas in villages that are simple thing things like pap smears for cervical cancer for ladies and other simple tests like a PSA test for


and other simple tests like a PSA test for an elderly male like what uh what Dr Gupta was saying that prevention so that at least instead of this entire system or ecosystem where it's all about sick care we actually flip it and make it more about preventive care or well care like we call it so that we have minimum people who are actually falling sick so yes awareness education like what you were talking about and also penetration into these rural areas by these bigger corporate chains who can provide that brick and mortar and a doctor I think are all a part of the picture okay Dr Gupta I want to ask you about this what is tomato flu there was this whole panic situation one is the Tomato flu and the other one was monkey pox has it come in is it coming was it right uh the Panic that was setting in actually you know um media and people are more aware if some negative news gets in or some catchy name like tomato like monkey right here so


catchy name like tomato like monkey right here so monkey actually monkeypox right or monkeys start with the 15 monkeys um all right uh Dr Ryan we've spoken so much about patients about children everybody now I have to ask you about the health care of doctors you know uh you read in the paper sometimes that doctors are under severe pressure and uh some have even committed suicide you know because now tell me uh what is it about you know doctors falling ill like this having mental pressure that they can't cope can't doctors see for it I mean it's a very basic question that a doctor should be able to tell you know that he's or she is slipping into some kind of a depressive State and needs help do doctors hesitate in seeking help or hesitate in accepting that there might be something wrong so very pertinent question and I'm glad we are getting a chance to discuss this but I'll divide it into two parts one is through your mbbs and your mdn residency days now obviously


mbbs and your mdn residency days now obviously during this time especially or mbbs and your md the curriculum is so robust and so stressful along with the classes that you have to attend I think that that pressure of the exams like you have your board exams Etc this is probably probably multi-fold and there's so much at stake especially like again what Dr Gupta was saying about that peer pressure that everyone wants to do well so I think it is more of actually inculcating that mental health chapter in all mbbs and uh and and medical students so that they can actually understand what is mental health and also have that uh that service that if someone wants to reach out to someone they should have that accessibility so that they can get counseling they can get therapy and so on and so forth and I I really feel that is lacking in the current Indian medical institutes that we have you must have done your PG after several years after Dr Gupta is done uh did you have that kind


Gupta is done uh did you have that kind of in your Medical College was there anybody reaching out no nothing we had our fixed academicians our teachers professors batchmates Etc but I I don't call any anything being so accessible like the way I feel that it should be with all these strategies that these uh tragedies that we are hearing also now coming to the flip side now um even with practicing doctors I think one one thing that the nation needs to understand is that we are not super humans and and it is not possible that you called us at 10 45 and if we didn't pick up then it doesn't mean we don't care about you it just means we might be sleeping or it means that we might be in the middle of dinner or something important so I think it's it's also that expectation that where especially in a country like India like abroad have a lot of friends in the US in the UK and five post five PM they are off for work but here I think


PM they are off for work but here I think it's also the immense amount of passion that we work with that even if it if it's 8 30 and if you're sitting with your own family and someone calls you your family also wants you to pick up because a one minute call that you have with them it's probably gonna put them at ease and help them out the entire night or maybe a day so I think that empathy and that passion together is what fuels our fire but I think that will eventually take a toll on it yeah and I think accessibility to the right therapist or somewhere where you can be heard I think it's critical again and obviously a very important work-life balance is something also that all doctors should maintain having Hobbies or playing a sport I know easier said than done but that is the need of the hour Dr Gupta I'm sure there is no work-life balance that you have you as a pediatrician I'm sure you need to be available or you


I'm sure you need to be available or you are available to your patients I will say that I'll spoiled my whole life if I talk if I try to follow and I didn't follow even one person one percent of that and I have paid for that the right and and all life not lifestyle lot of problems but what I would like to see like right from the mbbs and first of all I totally agree with him totally agree with him and just I want to add extra that's 60 percent of curriculum should be removed from medical science like for a mbbs doctor why I need to find out what is happening in the cell on under the microscope when I am not going to chase a histopathology as my curriculum right hmm so these type of unnecessarily unnecessary burden over a brain brain is a brain right right it has got limitation we should try not to over test it so in India already we are over populated so for one seat there are 25 000 candidates yes over and above you are


are 25 000 candidates yes over and above you are giving unnecessarily which are not going to unnecessary curriculum it's 60 percent if it's just rubbish 30 percent is scanning history just you want to carry the Legacy but doesn't burden the things by giving the medical history as a 30 of the curriculum secondly there are something super Specialists need to know why you are talking why you are telling the ambious person to cram up the things which doesn't have practical implication for at least next 10 years for him so my feeling is that many of the things because my other son is doing mbbs he is in final year he is he's a very mature guy he's you know I've found that he's much much more mature when I was if I compare myself when you were studying when I was in final year but almost 60 percent is the curriculum should be removed immediately right the professor should now should come in the actually in the public domain and should try to reduce their uh the burden


domain and should try to reduce their uh the burden of the whole society Medical Society Dr Dang you were saying about how you know uh in America or in the UK or in in any of these Western countries patients don't call up the doctors in the middle of the night and all I'm sure both of you get calls and I mean we are all guilty of doing it I wouldn't say just you know the random people are even I have I'm guilty that I could I could have waited till next morning to call up my doctor but I need to know now okay you know and especially I think uh Dr Sab I will say to you because in India at least are always available 24 hours I'll ask you Dr sub and then I'll come to you uh Dr Dang yeah I should know okay when I should seek a doctor in a clinic second when I should seek a medical facility so in an emergency suppose pediatricians 24 hours 365 days I totally agree because you need medical facility but you should


totally agree because you need medical facility but you should go to a hospital an emergency foreign foreign foreign 48 hours and then drive several hours away get that covered negative and then suppose your flight got delayed and I was like you know boasting so much like you just need to go didn't you feel at that time a sense of Pride that at least we had those facilities at that stage no I think I completely agree with you I think the healthcare ecosystem in India is should be praised more especially when when you look at the availability and affordability and also the accessibility to a doctor I would say Obviously rural areas and I'm not talking about year three four but at least the major academic problem no but yeah absolutely but now if you compare say a big city like a London for example to a Delhi or a Bombay you will see a striking difference now the cost of the same test there is about 10 to 15 times of a simple blood test the same blood test that you'll do in


blood test the same blood test that you'll do in Delhi versus what you'll do there I can vote that if you get it done from a good lab in Delhi I would say that is more reliable like if you were to just tell me in say dollar terms because we've got viewers listeners who live abroad like in dollar terms one test here and one test in say the US okay so so this was uh this was basically a few months back and I I had a friend who went and got a covet antibody test done there and they wanted a fisa vaccine so there I think it cost them some 800 US dollars for the same test that happens here for a thousand rupees 1000 1500 rupees so yeah so yeah exactly so you're doing do not even compare this exactly so yeah but there's also a point that all almost all testing there is Insurance driven and here it's out of pocket so is this going to happen here to do you see because I am seeing like


here to do you see because I am seeing like we were talking about this whole thing about you know you have to get tests done these days and then there is the whole malpractice thing do you think it's going to happen here too where tests could become so phenomenally expensive or because of corporates coming in will be will it become cheaper what is going on so I think I think that's a mystery that we we have to we have to wait and watch but but I do feel that uh with this uh entire industry having that picture of lucrativeness because of which you have your Pharma players you have your uh corporate hospitals you you have a lot of these e-commerce players now entering Diagnostics I think eventually in in a few months or a year or two the bubbles going to burst now what the the masses also need to understand that the same test now everyone experienced that with the rtpcr you have the same little card kit that you use at home that's the antigen


kit that you use at home that's the antigen test that is not at all as reliable as the gold standard that's the rtpcr and that's a fraction of cost of the RT PCR but in the end the report will say covet negative and positive so that's same test can be done in dozens of different ways at different quality benchmarks so obviously that is something that the end consumer of the patient will also eventually understand Dr just before we conclude I have to ask you Dr sub uh uh [Music] do we have to give kids flu shots do we have to give Elders flu shots and because the symptoms you know of flu and covid are so similar so flu shortly yes yes yes flu and it is a preventable disease and especially high risk cases your innate immunity and it should it will help I would last comment on what he said there are two things quality and quantity India is just Indians and India economy is based on quantity not quality unfortunately what is going to happen like you


quality unfortunately what is going to happen like you get in CT scan for the chest is carries huge radiation it should be of the best of the center with the best of the quality but if you get that CT scan of very low quality though it cost by even if cost doesn't matter but instead of ruling out the disease quality is so so bad that you cannot get another CT scan and the patient will land up in major problem because you were you were dealing with a poor quality investigation and the purpose of that investigation was not served so again what he said that too many too many investigations given as a package just to lure the patient rather than focusing on high quality Limited Test right is going to backfire very soon okay and it is backfiring many of the patients foreign possible for this whole set of questions that I have for you regarding what we need to do you know during the Winter's uh you know when we when we are heading towards this period thank you very much thank you


heading towards this period thank you very much thank you thank you for having us thank you thank you for having me thank you for listening in to a i podcast with Smitha prakash like or subscribe in whichever platform you listen to this in namaste thank you [Music]


first myth I want busted is that pollution affects only lungs it's wrong pollution affects every part of the body from brain to toe pollution starts impacting us even before we are born today a child born in a polluted city becomes a smoker from the first breath of his life next 20 years India is going to see an epidemic of lung cancer air purifiers masks etc etc are knee-jerk reactions smog Towers whoever is proposing them they've been put up with Fanfare in the city of Delhi they are a huge waste colossal waste of public money letting this human right clean air be the election issue for 2020. you are watching or listening to a i podcast with Smitha prakash today we have with us Dr arvind Kumar chairman of the Institute of Chess surgery chest onco surgery and lung transplantation at medanta hospital and founding and managing Trustee of the lanke foundation now I spoke to him about a whole host of issues which include uh you know


a whole host of issues which include uh you know children and the elderly suffering from lung Related Disorders because of pollution now you know the the frightening thing is that when you are looking at the statistics the data which is there doctors say that 80 percent of most Lung Care patients that they are seeing today are non-smokers they they used to be smokers in the 80s but now they're non-smokers so what they saw as pink lungs of babies uh in the 80s and in the 90s also now kids as soon as they start as soon as they take the first breath of air especially in North India they become smokers so by the time they are in their 20s they are like heavy duty smokers and they have those what used to be known as smokers lungs simply because they are breathing what happens do lawmakers not know about the situation that we are in we as parents as as young adults we are all concerned about our children about our parents uh how do we


about our children about our parents uh how do we protect them and protect ourselves and some of us who've had covet we have already got compromised lungs now so we whether we were smokers or whether we were fit and energetic we are all suffering from lung Related Disorders and if we do not sort it out we are looking at an epidemic in a few years time a cancer epidemic in India these are questions that we discussed in our conversation each one of us is is affected whichever part of India you are living in we are all affected and even if you aren't living in India if you have relatives and friends who are living in India they are also vulnerable today so listen in to my conversation with Dr arvind Kumar thank you very much for speaking with us Dr arvind Kumar um the first question I have is you know uh when I was as a parent as as someone who has an aging parent in-laws you just tend to worry about air pollution and the effect it


to worry about air pollution and the effect it has on vulnerable groups you know if you have a parent who has diabetes or if you have diabetes or you have children with lung Related Disorders like asthma the pollution in North India thanks to or no thanks to this paraly burning and things it's become so chronic the past couple of years you at least I feel that you know like when I go for a seminar or conference you're continuously hearing people coughing in the audience if it's not India you go and address anybody abroad or you address anybody in Northeast India or in uh in South India that issue is not there but North India it's like everybody is having some kind of you know this chest congestion cough and related issues as a doctor you tell me how do we handle this Smitha first of all thank you very much for having me on this podcast it's indeed an honor for me to be doing this podcast with you thank you sir coming to pollution


podcast with you thank you sir coming to pollution issue it's a very very important issue not just for the present generation but more importantly and sadly an aspect not adequately highlighted it's a vital issue for our next Generation Now why do I say that I say that because when we breathe in 24 hours we breathe 25 000 times in the process inhaling about one ten thousand liters of air every day and when you have toxins present in this air they go into our lungs from the lungs they get absorbed into the blood and through the blood they go to every part of the body from head to toe so first myth that I would like to burst through this podcast is that pollution affects only lungs right no big no lungs are the portal of entry for the pollutants into the body but once into the body they affect every organ so that's myth number one busted because of the blood uh yes so so when they go to the lungs and especially these smaller particles


go to the lungs and especially these smaller particles and the gases they reach up to the periphery so the same site from where the oxygen absorption takes place these toxins also find their way into the blood okay and they come to the heart and then they get circulated across the body so somebody who may not have asthma or any lung related disorder but has a heart issue is also a victim of of pollution now because that polluted blood is coming to the heart and the heart not being strong enough to pump fresh blood or good blood or whatever cannot get rid of the toxins right am I simplifying that you're simplifying it I'll come to this point so the first myth I want busted is that pollution affects only lungs it's wrong pollution affects every part of the body from brain to toe that's one two most of the people feel that pollution affects adults because we are on the roads and outside more often and therefore it affects the sad and I will repeat


therefore it affects the sad and I will repeat this word s-a-d sad the sad part of the story is pollution starts impacting us even before we are born oh there is data available now that if a pregnant mother breeds polluted air the pollutants from her blood cross the placental barrier and go to the child whose under development in her uterus and starts affecting that child if it's first trimester it affects development of organs and thereafter growth so from congenital malformations to intrauterine growth retardation to premature delivery to death inside the uterus all these are being reported recorded with higher incidence in polluted cities in pregnant women than in non-polluted city so it's not just cities right because uh yes in cities we have when I when I say cities I mean areas let me correct myself not cities because it's not a city specific problem this problem now is becoming as rampant in The Villages the causes may be different but it impacts people in villages as well


different but it impacts people in villages as well because of a coal burning or using food as so there the cause is a use of solid fuel inside the households so when the lady will cook the food on a Chula inside a room big room the smoke fills up the room and people who are sitting in that room who are usually the elderly people of the house and the little children who are sitting near the Chula they inhale and it has been shown that the particulate matter levels may be as high as 25 to 30 000 per meter a millimeter cube in these smokers because uh traditionally The Way Homes were constructed in India there was no concept of open kitchens or ventilation in the kitchen so even in a large house you know like if you go to Villages the uh the larger homes they don't have they don't have crossed ventilation they don't even have some of them don't even have ventilation as such just a door so there's no not even a window and usually what


so there's no not even a window and usually what happens is that the wood is placed outside the room in some cases in South India the wood is outside the room and there is like a passage like thing and then there's a Chula and the smoke goes out but in some cases when you don't have that facility of having the wood outside then the wood is inside you know the and it's cooked inside so more houses will have wood kept inside the room the chulha also inside the room the cooking is done there it may or may not have a window and usually the smoke fills up that room the little children are sitting next to the Chula the elderly people are sitting in the room so everybody is subjected everybody in the house from the children to the lady to the elderly people everybody smokes and this is one of the commonest causes of pollution related morbidity and mortality in our rural area so I have spoken to some people when you know when we go out for


some people when you know when we go out for coverages when we when I was doing a story on this ujjwala yojana and you know so there is a resistance to using uh you know uh non um you know coal and wood uh in cooking is this is a question it's the same way that you know when the swachh Bharat story I was doing people don't want the toilet inside the house so there is these are cultural resistance to it but there is a need for awakening right there is just like at one point of time in the 70s uh Family Planning uh program was undertaken on this massive thing even the immunization schedule by and large people know that you need to have small families by and large people know that but this has still not percolated yes so there are two reasons for this one is this what you rightly said was that the elderly person in the house will say guess he's used to having that Chula of Allah Roti and he cannot do without


Chula of Allah Roti and he cannot do without it so he insists on the Tula being used even though the cylinder may be lying in the house so that's one cultural taboo which we are trying hard to break by making lot of videos in various Regional languages and sending them out to actually the gas Distributors who can then share them with the people trying to tell them that in the process of having that swadwala Roti you're actually playing with the lives of your children the housewife and the elderly people so that's one second reason is economic that and the first cylinder free of cost but thereafter they had to get the chulha the cylinder refilled by paying some amount when they get wood from the jungle it usually comes free of course so there again they think that it makes economic sense to use wood rather than Chula and I as Doctor am trying to tell them that it does not make economic sense because when the people in the house fall sick because of this smoke it costs


house fall sick because of this smoke it costs them much more the treatment part than what they have saved in the cost of the cylinder so again it's an issue about awareness I think this supply has been done what we need to do is to create massive awareness that chulha is the way to go it makes economic sense it makes cultural sense and because also makes a gastronomic sense to make food on the Chula rather than the on on the gas burner rather than the Chula doctor since you uh you know you're an expert and you you deal with chest and lung disorders uh and transplants too Everybody Knows by now that tobacco plays a large role in this but off late I've been reading that uh it's not you know those who come with lung cancer and stuff it's not just tobacco it's it's more than the than that it's like it's not smokers lungs anymore lung cancer uh has so allow me to share my 30 years uh experience as a lung cancer


share my 30 years uh experience as a lung cancer surgeon I started my career at all India Institute in 1988. when I look at my initial data 90 of my lung cancer patients were smokers mostly men and people in 50s and 60s this you're talking in the 80s late 80s and early 1990s I looked at my last 10 years data recently and I was horrified to find that now 50 percent of the patients are so-called non-smokers and I'll give you the reason why I'm using the word so-called non-smokers 40 percent of the patients today are women non-smokers from non-smoking families and the peak age from 50s and 60s has come down to 40s and I have 10 percent of patients in 30s and my youngest patient was a 24 year old girl from a non-smoking family now this is now why is this happening this is the what who director General has called second tobacco epidemic so if you look at the chemical composition of the tobacco smoke and the


the chemical composition of the tobacco smoke and the polluted air you find that a large number of cancer causing chemicals are actually common in both so whatever is present in tobacco smoke can causes cancer is also present in polluted air and therefore is causing cancer the reason why we are seeing all this earlier is that earlier people used to get exposed to pollution when they would go out so typically around late teens early twenties their exposure to pollution used to start or they used to start smoking at this age we know that you need exposure to cancer causing agents for about 20-25 years before the tissues become cancerous so you start smoking at 2025 at 25 by 50 you are ready to get lung cancer today a child born in a polluted city becomes a smoker from the first breath of his life and again I'll explain why I'm saying that suppose India today so a child born there is in August of 2022 or September of 2022 is a smoker


of 2022 or September of 2022 is a smoker by October so no not by October from the very days breath of his life if in October the PM 2.5 level in Delhi is 300 micrograms per cubic meter in terms of equivalence to smoking there is a conversion formula 22 micrograms of PM 2.5 is equal to one cigarette so if you have 220 microgram level it's equal to 10 cigarettes so a child born in Delhi on the day when the 24 RPM 2.5 is 220 plus will smoke and get damage equal to 10 cigarettes on the day one of his or her life so you cannot prevent you cannot what do you do as a parent so when you start smoking from the first breath of your life by the time you are 25 years old you've actually smoked for 25 years and you're ready to get lung cancer that's why I'm seeing lung cancer in non-smokers in girls and in people in 20s and 30s and I dare say it on your podcast that


and I dare say it on your podcast that next 20 years India is going to see an epidemic of lung cancer and we are already tending to see that because our medical fraternity our policy makers everybody is aware but nobody will do any medical fraternity is aware medical fraternity is making noise about it we formed a group called doctors for clean air where across the country we are trying to share this information with schools resident welfare associations politicians bureaucrats and everybody trying to make them so we have a triple A approach so we make them aware when they are aware they will be awakened to the danger and when they are awakened we expect that they will take some actions no but this is something which is not new right this has been happening so at least for about at least 10 years as far as I what is new is that till few years back pollution was considered an environmental and a chemical issue talked about by environmentalists talked about by uh chemists and other people


talked about by uh chemists and other people researchers as a chemical kind of an issue truly it's not that it's a health issue and presenting it to the masses as a health issue is something which I think has started only in the last five years so people usually think that debts at in large numbers happen because of communicable diseases but what you are saying is that it's going to be a non-communicable disease the dent is being caused by pollution related illnesses today is more than HIV AIDS tuberculosis malaria Dengue and this kovid combined okay that's quite frightening the the reality is that we should have a clause in every death certificate in the in every hospital did pollution contribute to this death and I'm pretty sure that in 90 plus deaths across the country today you would find that pollution would have had some role to play but as I said it's causing brain attacks so let's start let's start looking at the impacts it has so in children as I said


the impacts it has so in children as I said in the intrauterine life it causes congenital defects it causes growth retardation death inside when the child is not make uh sorry to interrupt doctor but can you make a direct correlation for example just just a Layman's way of uh asking you that uh somebody a child can uh can uh probably have an attention uh deficit kind of a thing is that related I'm coming to that yeah so there have been studies across the world there are people who've spent their whole lives researching these issues what I'm talking is not my conjecture I'm also I'm talking of the hard data which is available which I have read so when I say it impacts the the children the the growing fetus in the uterus there is real data available when the child is born they have in the immediate postpartum period they have bronchiolitis so which is the equivalent of asthma in children all the time we are saying that these days children are becoming


we are saying that these days children are becoming very naughty they are very hyper active right that actually is inflammation of the brain now it is known that these pollutants go to the brain and they cause neural inflammation which initially manifests itself as hyper uh Active Child or attention deficit disorder and later on it has been shown to reduce the IQ levels also so these children may not attain their ideal IQ levels because of exposure come to lungs it causes bronchiolitis this causes asthma it's one of the commonest causes of pneumonia deaths in under five children in the country it causes numerous cancers as you grow it causes COPD and now the most dreaded lung cancer come to Heart COPD is a chronic obstructive disease in which your lungs becomes swollen up with air and you're not able to get oxygen so smoking what used to be a cause but now pollution exposure is emerging as the major cause come to Heart system uh many children in schools


cause come to Heart system uh many children in schools these days are being discovered to have premature hypertension you know people in teens that's that again is related to pollution it's been shown time and again that whenever there are peaks of pollution a week or 10 days later all hospitals in those areas report much higher levels of people presenting with heart attacks so it's known to predispose to heart attacks and contribute to heart attacks it's known to predispose to brain attacks so lung is affected heart is affected blood vessels are affected brain is affected and reproductive organs again it is being presented as one of the cause for decreased libido and decreased sexual performance come to two new additions where very sad and very frightening recently we did a study of over thousand school children in Delhi and compared them with equal number of children in Mysore and Kottayam which are two less polluted cities we found 29 incidents of asthma in Delhi children we found 38 incidence of overweight


in Delhi children we found 38 incidence of overweight or obesity in Delhi children compared to other two cities and there was a correlation between obesity and Asthma how so the theory is that pollution is causing obesity obesity predisposes you to asthma and pollution also causes asthma directly so it's a double whammy which pollution is causing it's causing asthma directly it's causing higher incidence of obesity which is then contributing to asthma and latest now there is evidence emerging that even diabetes the rising incidence of diabetes in India may have something to do with pollution because the pollutants are getting deposited in the pancreas and in the peripheral tissue predisposing people to diabetes obesity diabetes hypertension heart disease heart attack brain attack brainless development heightless development the list is endless endless now I'm sure when when you say these things at your awareness meeting everybody is aware of it at least to some extent but the point is policy makers should know right those who


the point is policy makers should know right those who are planning this country's growth trajectory for the next 20 years we're talking about Amrit Khal and things about where where India is going to be in the next 20 years 25 years 50 years where will we be if if we have an endemic of cancer uh sorry an epidemic of cancer in our country we are 1.3 billion uh now in 2022. if we have millions of people with cancer how do we deal with this issue do our policy makers not realize the enormity of this because see a lot of pollution related things can be handled like I when I went to uh uh when we our teams are going to Punjab every time covering this thing you talk to any chief minister your uh anybody has handling Health agriculture Vehicles stop the vehicular pollution why do you go to the farmer you are anti-farmer if you talk to the vehicle manufacturers your anti industry how do we deal with this crisis so my experience I have had


deal with this crisis so my experience I have had occasions to interact with all these segments of people from decision makers politicians bureaucrats journalists school children principals Civil Society police people because we've been addressing everyone body we've even gone to parliamentarians we had a meeting with parliamentarians I gave them a picture of a normal pink lung and a lung of a non-smoker delhiite where there were a lot of black black deposits and they showed it in the parliament also all that has happened so these people are aware when you say they all agree as something needs to be done but the thing is that somehow that awareness is not converting into the immediate and massive actions which need to be taken the urgency of situation somehow has not dawned on them what is this it's a medical emergency if we don't set it right today we are endangering the lives of our children for me it's a medical emergency everything else can stop we need to go and fix this problem that


stop we need to go and fix this problem that kind of an emergency or urgency and a desire to take instant action with instant end results that's not there if we take actions which are likely to give their results in 1520 time a whole generation would have suffered morbidity mortality because of this problem doc so what is the solution it can't be one solution right it's not mask Peno it's not in you know give you inoculation no it's not that no so priorities have to be set right first rule is that anyone who says that I'll let pollution happen and then take measures to clean the polluted ear he does not know even the basics or ABCD so smog Towers whoever is proposing them they've been put up with Fanfare in the city of Delhi they are a huge waste colossal waste of public money no country in the world has solved its air pollution Problem by putting smoked offers so this is a farce total farce colossal waste of precious public money


total farce colossal waste of precious public money that's number one number two it's a public problem air purifiers masks etc etc are knee-jerk reactions personal solutions to what is basically a public problem we've done it with electricity when electricity was not there instead of fixing we went for inverters and generators that was the first time we sought a private solution to a public problem second time we did it with water when the supply was not good we started carrying our private bottles unfortunately there is an attempt to do the same with air also people don't realize you can be without water for five days you can be without electricity for n number of days you can't be without air for more than two minutes and you cannot carry your own air I'm sitting in your studio I'm breathing the air can I bring my air curtain from my house and say oh I'm safe with this air curtain no so the solution lie is in cleaning the air across the country and not putting these


the air across the country and not putting these wastage of smoke Towers which are all social so this is the first realization which has to come solution lies in addressing the sources that's number one sources are many so vehicles are a big source unfortunately is given a huge amount of attention but I would like to clarify that it's something which happens a certain part of the ear contributes a certain quota during this part and if you take totality of the picture its contribution to a total is actually a much smaller segment than the attention that is given to it so a lot of pollution is coming from vehicles huge amount of pollution is coming from coal fired power plants okay they are the biggest problem they need to have devices fixed to reduce the emissions from them and this was something which Ministry of environment took it up on its own Co Moto about five years back and fixed very rigid norms for all of them to implement in a certain time frame which was a beautiful welcome step unfortunately


time frame which was a beautiful welcome step unfortunately since then that deadline has been deferred three times and now stands deferred to 2025. for reasons which I need not spell out here okay where are these located mostly across the country across the country right so if so electric vehicles are a wonderful welcome step but mind you electric vehicle needs electricity to charge it right and if that electricity is from a coal plant from a coal plant you are addressing the problem only half of it hmm so we have to address it in totality people have to understand it people have to cooperate also it's not that you can only blame the government it is a problem caused by everybody and it is a problem which will be solved by the participation of everybody but who will do it making rules alone is not the answer you know Supreme Court passed the order about cracker burning two years back I was also involved in in that course I used to go for the hearings and all but people violated that there


the hearings and all but people violated that there were people who made videos and showed that look it's past 10 o'clock I'm burning cracker do what you can what are you trying to prove Supreme Court is not passing its order for its sake its passing order for everybody's sake so that awareness in public has to come that it's for your own benefit it's like government imposing helmet and seat belt for your sake on you it's for your benefit minister is not getting benefited if you wear a seat belt government those who make these policies they also are breathing the same air absolutely so you would think that they'd be more aware and they will make sure that these coal plants Implement those laws which they have passed but what what can I do as a parent what can I do as I feel that there has to be a Citizens movement to promise movement across the country next election should be fought on the issue of Clean Air uh I would like this opportunity to take this opportunity


I would like this opportunity to take this opportunity to inform United Nations has declared clean air as a human right it happened just about six weeks back so we can say am I human rights my human right this human right clean air be the election issue for 2024. I know it sounds very radical those who will listen and sing human rights but you know it is true stuff that we think is not imperative it is if it is survival as you are saying and Survivor I mean each one of us first things of our children right as a that's the first thing that you think is your parent and your child most of us would do that and if we can't ensure survival of our parents or of our children then this is talking of progress progress everybody wants to be successful entrepreneur CEO blah blah blah I'd like to tell everybody that the first requirement for achieving any of these is a healthy body and if your body is unhealthy if you have host of problems from brain to toe


if you have host of problems from brain to toe you cannot achieve success doctor what about covid most most of us who've had covid uh we are battling with this long covet issue breathlessness if I could climb uh you know four or five flights of stairs without without even forget about gasping without even Breathing heavily I could do that now I can't even do two without gasping without taking a pause and this is like it it doesn't seem to go even after an hour after a year so there were three types of people from covet one who had very very very severe lung involvement and went to ICU and probably did not survive there was a group which had negligible or no lung involvement who returned to normalcy after their kovid episode and there was a group in between which had lung involvement which was not severe enough to take them to the ICU but was severe enough to compromise the lung function to some extent now this group is the one which is actually


extent now this group is the one which is actually complaining of reduced exercise ability reduced exercise tolerance earlier they could climb five flights of stairs now they get breathless on the second floor itself so these people when we are doing CT scans are showing some amount of fibrosis in the lungs which is the long term effect of the lung involvement there are some medicines being tried but till date there is no medicine which has been proved to be definitely effective but what is definitely proved to be beneficial is graduated increasing exercises breathing exercises and you know the other cardio exercises which tend to restore the elasticity of the lung and the lung function to normal levels but it's but I must teach you a bonding here that there are cases where people have gone for massive exercises suddenly and there have been fatalities also so when you go back to your exercise regime it should be very very slow gradually increase give your body time to adjust you know body has suffered damage


time to adjust you know body has suffered damage don't impose massive exercise from day one it can cause catastrophe as it has in numerous cases across the country so slowly increasing maybe first day you just exercise for five minutes let it go for two weeks then make it seven minutes then two weeks then make it nine minutes as your body gets used to but with exercise you can actually get back a lot of your original function second is there is a huge amount of anxiety which people are having and I see lot of such cases in my OPD lot of them are I.T professionals they read a lot on the internet and because of that they develop more symptoms than they actually ought to be having going by their lung standards and all we need to do is to calm them down things are okay just have patience do some pranayama do some relaxation exercises and surprisingly they start feeling much better doctor also the reason is uh for example a fit person uh got covered right and so mentally to


fit person uh got covered right and so mentally to to accept that you may not be able to work out as much or you may not be able to do and to slow down in today's day and age slowing down if you tell somebody to slow down is like telling that person die you know do you understand everybody is on this on a like a conveyor belt so the first thing that is needed is not to be on the conveyor belt right slowing down does not mean that you will not reach your destination you'll probably reach your destination you just need to pause recover your health after that you will be able to run fast enough to reach there do you get a lot of patients who tell you uh in the past like since you've been practicing medicine since the late 80s do you get that a lot today that the anxiety levels have increased so much that it's impacting on physiological many many many fold increase in the anxiety levels and I'm telling you that these post covet syndrome of


telling you that these post covet syndrome of course it's there long covet post covet syndrome whatever term you want to eat it's there but the magnitude that is being talked about has a lot to do with the anxiety that has been created around it oh yeah even I'm so lot of people come to me they say I can't do this I can't do that and I take them with me I say let's climb stairs and I start talking to them and we climb four flights upstairs then suddenly yeah so you realize that it was actually anxiety which was preventing them I'm not saying everything is anxiety show all I'm saying is that anxiety is also playing a huge role and we need to control that do you see that in children or just one thing I'll add sure what I have noticed is that you know kovid and all those lockdowns and ICU stays they actually Disturbed our 24 hour schedule and as it is there are a lot of people who work till 2 am


are a lot of people who work till 2 am 3 AM 4 AM then sleep till 11 o'clock there is something called body cycle if we just restore the body cycle so 10 pm to 6 a.m was what the body is used to sleeping if you keep the body awake during that time and you try to sleep during you're going against the physiology of the body so I tell these people make a fixed time that okay by this time I'll go to sleep I'll get up at this time do a little bit of exercise do a little bit of meditation whichever form of meditation you wish to calm down your body and then make yourself busy in some productive work and pay attention to work when you get busy with work suddenly you forget that you were ill so people are not working they're saying no no no I need to get fit because I have a lot of work to do so that anxiety of doing lot of work is actually preventing them from getting fit and when they come to me all I


getting fit and when they come to me all I do is to talk talk talk talk to them and talk them out of it and most of them actually come out of it okay the the you were talking about the body uh needing that sleep from 10 o'clock to six o'clock you said or minimum five to six hours is what an adult needs but into more than duration quality is important if yes disturb what is happening thing people are doing less and less of physical activity and more and more of mental activity when you go to bed at 11 o'clock if you have 100 calculations going on in your mind where am I going to get that Emi and you know all those things so much of pressure obviously you won't get sleep and medicines are not the solution because medicines give you artificial sleep which just gives you some sleep hours but not sleep relaxation so when you get up in the morning you feel groggy you feel tired and your output goes down which further complicates the problem I


goes down which further complicates the problem I I mean I of course I can't say that my job is more high stress than yours you're saving lives but you talk to anybody doctor everybody says that oh the stress level is so much he sleeps only four hours and that's why he's the CEO and you know people are actually with great pride they say we need only four hours of sleep so four or five or six can vary from people to people I know so many Doctor friends of mine who sleep four hours but then they sleep well and they get that REM sleep during which you have actually relaxed so I would say around six hours is what an adult needs it's not necessary so four are six hours is Jesus just numbers put by people if you sleep for six hours and do not get adequate relaxation somebody sleeps for four hours and gets adequate relaxation he's in a better position so quality of sleep is more important than the duration so uh you know migraines are a major issue especially


uh you know migraines are a major issue especially for women and uh of course women whenever uh you know they say they siddhar Dora and nobody used to believe it right and I remember people used to say yes hysterical right hysterical was a word yeah hysterical used right and they used to say but it's only like you said it's that deep sleep is something which was not there right it's only when the smart watches came that's that you get to know something I use the word sleep ours you know when we sleep say around 11 o'clock so early morning between 4 to 5 30 or 6 is the time when we get what is called REM sleep it's called rapid eye movement sleep which is the deepest form of sleep which needs to leads to maximum relaxation yeah so when you get that proper quality of sleep yeah you get up Absolutely Fresh but when you are working you know the whole night yeah and then during the day time when actually the body is prepared to be awake because of the


the body is prepared to be awake because of the hormones are such that they are prepared to be awake and you are trying to put them it's like a a vehicle which is in fourth gear and you're trying to put brakes so you have an internal battle going on and that's what damages the body so does this lack of sleep also impact on on other things like lockups no lack of sleep first thing leads to very high anxiety levels you have all the time you are anxious your attention span goes down that leads to a decrease in work output and you get into a trap vicious cycle where one thing leads to the other and all you need to do is to just bring yourself out give your body that much needed good quality sleep relaxation let the stress go out and think things start improving so now nowadays I mean I not nowadays probably for a couple of years I mean earlier it was like yoga meditation curl switch off curl then there are these apps which come in which


curl then there are these apps which come in which help you like um you know uh water flowing app or you don't subscribe I'm a huge believer in natural things okay if I look at ancient India and I look at Western countries of the last 30 40 years in Ancient India there was peace there was Tranquility there was health and if you look at the Western countries last 30 40 years depression stress anxiety heart disease hypertension diabetes you know all these problems are there and I feel that all these problems are man-made because of their running away from natural things and relying more and more and more on artificial things and these apps are the latest addition to that huge area of artificial things instead of water flowing app if you just go and sit near a fountain or you know just just relax yourself you don't need an app the biggest thing is you need to understand that everything is good and we need to control our Ambitions also it's good to be ambitious but it's not good to


good to be ambitious but it's not good to be over over ambitious to the level that it start hurting you thereby preventing you from achieving that you've been working hard to achieve it becomes counterproductive I'm going to hand you over to our health reporter who who is I'm sure she has a lot of anxiety because she got stuck in traffic right so Charlie we've discussed already about various lung related issues and what the governments should do what parents should do but nothing much that we can do to save ourselves unless we create awareness and become like a pressure group I think that's what Dr sah was saying that we need to make our policy makers aware that you know this is something which we are going to have an epidemic of you know of cancer in a few years time if we don't resolve this and we make sure that the laws which currently exist they are implemented that implementation so this is what we discussed so far and of course uh anxiety sleep long covered these are


and of course uh anxiety sleep long covered these are points but if you have anything else that you would like to ask yeah sir I just wanted to know the implication especially if we talk about the covet and if we do link between the Children's Health and covet because their lungs are already very much compromised and pollution is also there how it is affecting because lot of cases are coming so covid impacted lungs will be more vulnerable to the impacts of air pollution because it's already a diseased lung so disease lung subjected to same toxin will fare much worse than a normal healthy lung subjected to same toxin so whether it is children or adults if they have covid impacted lungs where some fibrosis or other problems have taken place these people definitely will be more prone to the ill effects of air pollution than other people so we have one more issue with the pregnant women also before that like what you were saying when you know basically it's gone unless that secondary infection


you know basically it's gone unless that secondary infection kind of a thing doesn't start you don't go to a doctor most people don't want to go to doctors firstly and then you go to a doctor how does one know that oh okay I need to go to a doctor for preventing further issues from happening so I think the first indication that there is something wrong with the lung comes from your feeling that your exercise ability is going down so if you used to climb to say third floor without a difficulty now if you start getting breathless that's the first indication which will come to you that something is going wrong or cough may be there so the symptoms include decreasing exercise ability cough chest pain feeling of congestion in the chest and you become very prone to secondary infections and start getting them with higher frequency than you used to get in the past so these are four or five uh indicators I think if you if you notice that your kid is not going out to play sitting with


your kid is not going out to play sitting with a device more mostly people think they want to play with the device but it could also be that he or she doesn't like playing outside because they don't have to get breathless yes you should watch them that if they avoid running they don't want to do those exercises or play those things where they have to make physical activity and they are tending to sit more and more you should immediately get him checked the schools do screening or something like that that's you know whereby you get so the numbers may be so small that actually if you do a mass level screening it may not be helpful but if you select out those who have some suggestive symptoms and do screening in that focused population I think that will be more cost effective and maybe in the rural areas the Primary Health Care Centers can take over this project of screening people and then we will at least have some kind of data so that governments can act you know unless they have that data


can act you know unless they have that data and they know that it's so enormous uh the the problem is so enormous they may not do it yes they should be done especially ma'am if I talk about you know the pregnancy also during pregnancy also the air pollution has lot of implications yes we discussed it in detail that pregnancy is actually one of the most so there are three vulnerable groups the pregnant women the growing children and the elderly people pregnant women because the fetus gets affected growing children because their tissues are growing from brain to toe every tissue is growing and when the growing tissue is is attacked by these toxins the growth potential of all organs is impacted and the various organs may not grow to their Optimum potential one and two May develop n number of diseases the elderly have a reduced immunity because of their Advanced age their organs are old they may be having many other comorbid conditions and if they are subjected to pollution they have


and if they are subjected to pollution they have much higher morbidity mortality than the so these are the three vulnerable segments of society so as well as children like you if I talk about autistic chill children they can't express much they are also suffering one of their studies so they will be suffering as much as the other children will be suffering only thing is they can't express as the other children come so there suffering level will not be higher but they may not be able to express and therefore they may get more impact because they are not able to express the problem and also people with coma existing comorbidities like your diabetes hypertension because of pollution is what we discussed so obesity and diabetes these are two latest additions to the list of problems caused by air pollution and unfortunately both are impacting children so the increasing incidence of obesity in children and increasing incidents of diabetes being discovered in children is somewhere or the other linked to their exposure to air


or the other linked to their exposure to air pollution I think what my suggestion even though you wouldn't take it maybe but what you should take it back to your medical fraternity is that you should do this free for cost screening in the Parliament and in every state assemblies so that they get to know that they are victims unless they don't know that so first thing that I have requested a lot of doctors through their associations is to put a kind of a placard big black card outside their clinics in India breathing kills in India breathing not smoking but breathing breathing skills if you just put this black card outside it will start a conversation you know immediately we are alive because we are breathing what do you mean breathing kills so it will start a conversation and somewhere when you tell them what give them more information it will hit them thank you so much for coming it's uh it's I know you know it's going to shock many people but that shock treatment is necessary I feel


people but that shock treatment is necessary I feel unless we are shocked into doing something we just don't there is so much of you know everybody is a Lagarde when it comes to taking proactive measures and unless they know that their lives are at stake and their children's lives are at stake nobody will do anything so my last sentence will be to convey a message that air pollution is not an environmental or a chemical issue air pollution is a very very serious health issue which is going to impact us more importantly it's going to damage our next Generation it's a health emergency that India is faced with and unless all the people start working together along with the government to rectify this problem this problem will persist thank you very much for speaking thank you thank you sir thank you for listening into Ani podcast with Smitha prakash like or subscribe in any platform that you have seen or listened to it namaste foreign [Music]


now as far as the absolute incident which you are speaking about which is the moment of the arrest you have seen about it you've seen it on television I'm sure but you've seen perhaps one percent of it that's a period of my life I have not spoken about in detail pushing me with the butt of their weapons hitting me in the crotch yeah physically assaulting me thrashing me through the way right not even letting me wear my shoes locking me up in the loo of a jail doing things which are unbelievable if I did not compromise in 2011 when the entire Congress Government tried to put pressure on me when I was the editor of times you know then why would I compromise now this was physical and I podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is controversy's favorite child arnab goswami joining me in this podcast is my colleague ishan prakash who began his career 12 years ago in Tribune and then under arnab goswami in times now Arnav thank you very


goswami in times now Arnav thank you very much for coming to our studio uh it feels a little odd me asking you the questions you are the one who's always asking questions but uh you know when we started this podcast it was everybody's first comment on the on YouTube and on on all the other channels is when you're getting outnam when you're getting on remember even when I was starting it I was like okay so now you are this journalist who I have not seen anybody having such a huge fan following at the same time there is so much of Envy hate jealousy and adoration how does that rest on your shoulders it's not resting I don't know I don't say I've been away for too long from lutein's Deli so I left this city um 2004. it's been 18 years it's a long time you know so when I come back I come back like today you know once a month once in two months I hear these things here because when I'm in Mumbai I don't


things here because when I'm in Mumbai I don't hear anything I'm literally in my Newsroom so the conversation does not happen where I am so it doesn't affect me and where I am it's home and Studio home and studio so I don't have much time to think about all these things these are the things I hear about when I come here but you do know you do know that you know you I mean wherever you go there are like so many people who come around you asking for selfies and then you are like in social media also hero worshiped as well as like that you're the man who broke the news there's been a lot of conversation there's been a lot of conversation when it first happened when when around 20078 you know when the conversation sort of began to increase around around may not where I was working for it was a new thing but 2009 10 sort of it it settled and then I realized that I don't I don't need to think much about the conversation I need


don't need to think much about the conversation I need to do my job so I do my job and yeah that's it there's not much to think about so uh let me start from the beginning did you did you ever think you know a young lad in guwahati growing up and then after that contourment life and then Delhi University you even written about it about your life in Delhi University and do you think that you know you would reach the Pinnacle of television news in India no way no no way I never thought I'd reached the Pinnacle of anything it was more about you know doing well enough I guess you know being above average and then plodding along floating along you know these things are accidental this is what you call success is ephemeral accidental occasional and one shouldn't take it too seriously because then you begin to have what I call an exaggerated sense of self-importance you know you believe you are born for success I have no such pretentions so I think it's okay


have no such pretentions so I think it's okay I have never planned anything I didn't even plan to be a journalist it's just one thing leads to the other and you sort of move along you do the best when I first met you 27 28 years ago you know you and your wife both of you whenever young journalists you know starting out in life and things even then I didn't even in my wildest dreams I didn't think you were one of those ambitious ones you know you you're kind of like going through life both of you getting your uh you know uh understanding what TV journalism was you joined star NDTV thought that yahi paid like other journalists in NDTV 25 26 years no I never thought of nickel it is that you know I have always I have always just been the kind who sort of has moved from one thing to the other uh I did want to learn how to run a TV channel because I I thought how complicated is it really you know what goes into it so I


it really you know what goes into it so I was a keen Observer I used to observe how things go beyond what I do I was interested in the bigger picture so I wasn't very taken with my byline I wasn't very taken with my PS2 camera so I was interested in the big picture so I'm always eager to understand how the how the operations run how the organization runs how the back end runs and and that is what I actually learned a lot and when I when I picked up a lot but nothing extraordinary Smitha you know there is no narrative to my story it is just that you know I came into Delhi after my after my college I came back to Delhi I did my job stayed here nine years left went to Bombay in the 18 years that's it no yeah I wanted to see this humility now I mean it is can you give us a timeline of just your career how it began my time yes because you know there are a lot of people who just know


know there are a lot of people who just know you in this iteration or that way and how you moved into television how you took a leadership role in television you know if you can just expand on the background no no I'm getting it and you know Smitha is getting it wrong she's thinking I'm trying to be unnecessarily humble I'm just trying to figure out if there is a narrative of the kind she's trying to seek there is one will come to that we'll come we'll start no she was asking me is there a is there a was there a great grand plan or was there as you call it a grand strategy no I don't think yeah so what I'm doing there wasn't I mean there wasn't much good things happen sometimes bad things happen and you go along with it and sometimes you are also in the right place at the right time it's a function of all of that so you you're telling me about the chronology yes chronology is simple see uh my I'll take you even


is simple see uh my I'll take you even further beyond my father was in the Army he's uh he's from he was from The Madras suppers and so I grew up in various cantonments non-contournaments change seven schools finally I was in Delhi in Mount Saint Mary's did my CSC did my cbse from Kendra vidyalaya jabalpur came back here did three years in Hindu College stayed in North Campus two years in the hostel got lucky got a scholarship went to Oxford did a masters in social anthropology came back 94. and didn't quite figure what one needs to do realized that I was not I didn't have the qualifications for academic job for a full-time academic job so I had options of doing a PhD I had I I was in that track to do a PhD but that would require me to commit five six years so I thought I'd be I'd be in my late 20s by the time I finished I opted out of that kept it on hold came back came


out of that kept it on hold came back came to Delhi couldn't find the right job met swapan dasgupta in Express with chandan Mitra and Hindustan times you know uh very helpful way you had an inkling that journalism is your calling no it was the only thing I thought I could do okay you know I mean it's the I wasn't qualified for anything else at that time I had I had a postgraduate degree in some in Social anthropology okay you know so the there wasn't any there was a there's no career track to be very crucial degree yeah so I didn't have a track yeah so yeah so I mean then I thought that okay we'll try out in journalism print journalism was the only thing right couldn't get the right job in Delhi I hung around here for two to three months went around almost to all the offices got through some places God but didn't get the break so they got to went to Calcutta I remember swapantha's Gupta told me sitting


I remember swapantha's Gupta told me sitting in the Express office he was Deputy editor he said you won't get the right break here you go there and chandan Mitra told me that son you uh what have you just studied I said I've studied social anthropology so he said you you write a piece for me uh op-ed or editorial piece on uh your interpretation of caste which was at that point of time a big issue in politics so I wrote a piece he I remember him telling me he's very academic because I had I had that was your background it was my background so if someone told me about cast I would think about Louis dumo uh French structural Theory my whole interpretive understanding of Castro's academic and as a young person you are what you are you've come straight from the campus so then he said that with all of this you go to a telegraph because he said you'll get a job I got a job in Telegraph I was put in the editorial page and


Telegraph I was put in the editorial page and so I hung around there for about a year a little under a year yeah then I came back yeah I started looking for opportunities here the one option was to go back into Academia that has always been my life story you know go back to Academia but again I came back here I got a couple of jobs and uh um what date are we looking at right now 90 93 I think no 94 95 by now it's 95 and I got a job same day in two places one one was Outlook Outlook where I met padmananja I didn't get to meet vinoda I met padmananja it was a virtual offer not a hand like a not a letter I got but he said I'll give you an offer and then I met upper Menon at NDTV oh okay and somehow I liked open a lot he was very nice yeah you know so I was not sure I didn't know Delhi much so I felt very I found him very warm and he took


felt very I found him very warm and he took a great interest in me so I met him I met Bruno and radhika I think very briefly here and you were on beach journalism immediately yeah yeah I mean I didn't even know what I was doing I remember I no no no nothing I remember I I was taken to do you know as assistant some reporters to go and see how stories happened yeah yeah I did that but could you tell that TV was going to be the future was what was that conversation being had because Zee TV had entered ETV had entered you know the market in the mid to early late 90s at that NDTV was already established there archduck was also there and the TV was in English and it was already established by then I occasionally felt that the stories have impact occasionally television occasionally so I found the occasion when the story is at impact but the stories were not aimed at having any impact the stories were aimed at completing is it 24 minutes on a


aimed at completing is it 24 minutes on a bulletin right there was no passion there was no heart it was structure so you know what I mean run down you know it was a standard rundown yeah so I wasn't if you ask me was I very thrilled at what I was doing I wasn't but I like the chase you know I like meeting people I like going to party offices I like meeting people I liked having chats um and you re-imagine news when you went two times now the entire model that you created did not exist at all there were several channels then already and when you did times now you we saw a different kind of News Bulletin a News Bulletin not seen so far on any Hindi or English Channel so what what did you want to do I mean here was this the anchor who was a participant in everything you changed uh actually if you look back Smita at the last my last nine months at NDTV was a time when I was first given my own show it


time when I was first given my own show it was called news night it was at 8 30. and that show if you if you check with anyone in that time because viewership I think it started getting measured somewhere but it had a compelling audience because what I did was I just did a debate and there was no debate there was this easy kind of consensus we all like each other let's meet tomorrow how what do you think what do I think this is rather fake and artificial attempt at uh putting People Like Us in a studio and then having a chat um I have come from an academic world so I find that that the fakeness of it the fake intellectual pretensions I I I'm not very fond of them uh so I taken a break to go back to Cambridge after I was at Oxford I spent time I I wrote a book by 2003 when NDTV started I got a show otherwise I would have quit by then but uh that showed it exceptionally well because because I


uh that showed it exceptionally well because because I realized that there needs to be conflict for any conversation to be true and ideas generation and what no there needs to be there needs to be different perspectives yeah and the perspectives need not coalesce into something there needs to be a diversity of opinion and we must not be afraid of that you know it's just like when I was in school I was a very very good debater and I always found debating far more exciting than elocution and I found if you ask me what I what I really did to television I turned a constant elocution competition into a debate that's what I did but those last nine months on news night was was very exciting for me because because uh Smitha I would I would get the guess I would I would write the script I would uh I would think it through I would think of the structure of the debate I would think of the four or five five points of the debate because you see Smita I am


of the debate because you see Smita I am a professional debater I have been one of the best Debaters in school in college that's all I do well I do nothing else will my academic degrees are just now I don't know as well so the point is I turned that I turned my passion into a subject yeah but again after those the sheer process of launching times now uh raising investment four times now building a channel from scratch construction stage onwards recruiting it was thrilling from a organizational learning point of view but I didn't quite start off with the debate for the debate to come into times now it needed an Ambiance and that Ambience happened somewhere around 2007 2008 when there were subjects which came up accidentally as I say in the course of the debate in the course of the news coverage which provoked one to think so actually what happened was that the between the launch between my leaving NDTV in 2004 my launching times now in 2006 January and the format of the


times now in 2006 January and the format of the debate appearing in its incipient form somewhere in 2007. there was a period of Allah because I was I was too caught up in building an organization or rather say founding an organization and breaking news you I I know that you caused everybody you caused A disruption in the business in a way because we all were suddenly competing with each other like you said you know this this consensus period was over it was like time is not going to break it time zone report is going to be there so other channels were like okay I mean there was this understanding which is we'll do the news you know that the the big news will come in around that time but you were like you had put your reporters everywhere that aggressive brand of Journalism is what you brought in and you were fighting in your Newsroom why so-and-so got this thing first you know like the other the rumors of him fighting are true he's been I mean excuse me wait


are true he's been I mean excuse me wait wait okay so if I can say that when you want it you know ishan to get an experience of a newsroom why did you send him to me so exactly because when my reporters were coming back and when I asked them who was who are we being beaten by like for a news agency I want to know which channel is beating eni when I know that my news is being beaten by somebody else then that means that that person deserves my respect or that channel deserves my respect so you guys were beating us nobody else was beating us at that stage right it's not the it's not the packaging or the way you're speaking it or the way you're presenting it that matters for me it was who's beating and what is this model so when I said if there's somebody who's beating me I need to know that that is that is the kind of Journalism that is going to be our next step forward yeah so I thought


to be our next step forward yeah so I thought that ishan will learn a lot and we will learn a lot and I think we learned uh you know what you needed from a news agency what you were doing with your competitors and how you were beating I think phenomenally you changed because I saw other channels replicating what you were doing in times now see we are sitting here and watching what all channels are doing and I saw that happening with what you were doing I don't know whether you were seeing that no I'll tell you there's another dimension to it and uh having observed the way news is done in Delhi for about a decade a little short of a decade I realized that what was missing in the news was the heart and I want to just explain this a little in detail to you in in Delhi news the way I saw it I'm talking late 90s early 2000s was the quest of four or five things Smitha one political relevance political and bureaucratic


Smitha one political relevance political and bureaucratic relevance that was the high point that journalists and editors really worked for second some kind of patronage some kind of political and bureaucratic patronage that is something which journalists really sought and delighted in it is the be-all and end-all of your life you know third and I'll tell you disproportionate wealth corruption in media circles was rampant up to a point where it became embarrassing to watch people used to boast about it oh I've got this Farmhouse here I've got this Farmhouse there there's no known source of income uh every several people bureau chief um upwards the designation was a pretense as was their salary so I saw deep rot corruption uh and no commitment to society and most importantly no commitment to the nation absolutely zero commitment to the country it became a form of individual aggrandizement and I saw it up close I'm not naming people but anybody watching this knows who I'm talking about and


watching this knows who I'm talking about and Smita I despised it so I think it was necessary to give this media reality check and I think what I seriously gave them have given them and continue to give them and will give them in the future is a reality check of how the people in this country really think what media they want what media they deserve the form of media that will serve the people's interests the form of media that will serve the national interest and zero sense of self-importance here when I'm saying it's meetha because I when you said and I told you that there was only in in my early phase Randy TV the only occasional stories where I saw impact but I saw the impact potential of the medium of the visual medium I'm not calling it television the visual medium to create impact and then I saw the Colossal selfishness and waste of people who control the levers of that Medium here in this city and so I felt that sitting two thousand


city and so I felt that sitting two thousand kilometers away yeah it was time to give them a reality check and I I can tell you with absolute conviction today as I felt then that I was I have been closer to the hearts of the people then and now is there a reason that you deliberately moved from Delhi to Mumbai because all TV news channels were based in Delhi in those days even now they are daily Noida whatever time so India gave me a job in Delhi and by the time we raised the investment from Reuters I was in Delhi my family well sorry I was in Mumbai they called me to Mumbai so they said we want to launch in Mumbai I said why not I remember first going to kamla Mills the day we got the investment check and we said we'd build a building I remember going to Kamala Mills at that time and we went to the second floor of this building and said this is a big enough place twenty thousand let's build a studio


big enough place twenty thousand let's build a studio that I saw the bricks being laid we constructed the studio from scratch so why was I in Bombay Bombay I still call it why was I in Bombay I just happened to be there and it was okay and I felt you can do it from here but we kept a center in shiram center but over a period of time I began to enjoy being in Mumbai and enjoy the distance of it all you know this is my two cents I'm a bit of an upstart between both you Giants but I should say there's been a decade also since I was with you so also in that time we saw a lot of the channels the prime time and the bulletins before that were primarily your Deli beats and your metropolitan cities and all times now at that time under him was the first channel that actually went with live assets to you know villages to towns and show what the real people are going through on a daily on a daily


people are going through on a daily on a daily basis you know if a kid fell into a borewell a live feed of you know to make sure that the ndrf don't go there and rescue that kid it was them that started it and then we all ran towards it it was also conviction you're totally right yeah in India has lacked a sense of purpose and along with the sense of purpose comes with a sense of conviction see why I am why am I doing this job why am I a journalist why am I an editor what purpose do I serve is it going to be only for myself and my career progression to a certain extent yes all of us do that but I think that my true professional satisfaction came around the time the prince story happened around 2006 seven when I began to observe almost like a student that if you actually use the impact of the medium you have a larger purpose and the larger purpose when you're convinced of your larger purpose in anything in Live Vision


of your larger purpose in anything in Live Vision then you do it with greater passion right you know and not that this can be taught in a school of Journalism but if you see a small child's lives being saved and you see that the entire country's attention in that period went to those visuals and then you ask yourself in an ordinary news day the story of a child falling into a manhole would have been a small item a diary item a diary item a 30-second wrap a page three single column 100 Pages that's the most buried inside and perhaps the child's life would not have been saved right and so then you know and also it's at some time I saw overall Awakening happened right before my eyes I'll tell you why because the first time you do the story there are a lot of people who raise their eyebrows say you're Sensational say that you're over hyping things say this is tabloid journalism but then if it is so bad then why is everybody following it why


is so bad then why is everybody following it why is it that through an entire decade and more than even now the editorial agenda that we set is followed by others we are so bad obviously there is an Awakening a weakening and and that Awakening was very opportune because let me ask you ishan and Smita around the time I was doing this I was doing Prince we covered 26 11 in a different way with greater passion we questioned the country's foreign policy and by the time we were doing the scams which is cwg scam around May June 2010 right up to the prime minister's press conference in February 2011 approx that time till the Devas ISRO scam and then the agitation and then nirvaya 2012. this entire period was an exponential of of of the return of news yes of the absolute and unquestioned return of news in the medium of television you know what purpose it served it was a reality check for all these Hindi channels operating in Delhi who by


all these Hindi channels operating in Delhi who by then had descended television into Saab CD Ludo Nagin dance virtual videos videos of people dying on camera you know the kind of rubbish bhootpreet occult you know sansani right and all of these forms I despise I think this you see they'd say to me you are the one who's after ratings I'm not after ratings ratings follow me because what we do is out of our conviction I'm doing service to my country yeah now whether it be the coverage of monkey gate as a test series or Cricket Series in 2007 or 2611 or the corruption cases somewhere serious news came back we are the people who brought back news on television you run India's biggest news agency you know that how many channels at that point of time were running Pure News no whatever I have done people may like or dislike what I have done I can confidently say that in my in my last 16 years as an editor of a channel channels Network whatever I have


an editor of a channel channels Network whatever I have done only news you can describe what I have done but I have not compromised on the news no it's the form of you so so what we did because we actually Smitha brought a lot of conviction back people we we were doing things because we believed in it and we we when we do something you believe in you don't think of the consequences you know you don't think of who's going to be upset who's going to be hurt which political party will like it or not like it who is Suresh kalmadi close to who is Suresh kalmadi fronting for what happens to a Raja we don't think of the consequences you don't even think that when you're doing Devas ISRO scam which by the way there was arbitration case in the high courts yeah two months back and the verdict after all these years proves me correct yeah and that was the scam at what which point of time I'm sure Dr Manmohan


what which point of time I'm sure Dr Manmohan Singh realized he couldn't quote unquote handle us with his political managers we were to be fair and to be honest out of control you know and we did it taking those risks at a time when all these players in lutein's media who now give me lectures in journalism weren't doing nothing but sort of being the most obsequious before the establishment at that point of time so we took those risks we did it with our conviction and I think the people of the country appreciate it I think I think they did I think I appreciate it absolutely taking risk is something of course you've done several times too much of it but many times I've been sitting you know I think why does he do this why so many times I feel that please you know especially when you when that thing okay I want to get to the part of of what happened with the whole Waze parambis okay before that before that I just want to ask one


before that before that I just want to ask one thing you're right about the conviction that you had I mean we all followed it no doubt about which conviction sort of stance and everything no doubt about it everyone did but Kabhi Kabhi sir you know maybe on a certain story we go overboard sometimes did any story give you a doubt that you know maybe I've said a little too much and I need to start backtracking or probably bring bring sort of bring it back on track that you've sort of veered away from a story I'll give you a small example and what I'm talking about specifically this Aryan Khan story that happened all channels sort of had one similar line initially as they went on and as the aspects of the story started tumbling out tumbling out then we realized that listen there are there's more to the story than that than what has been you know put on record or what's come out in the investigations and then sort of people sort of figured out


and then sort of people sort of figured out and toned their life tone their sort of coverage more aligned to what the truth of the matter was using that example do you think that sometimes in a particular Story You've Gone overboard everybody has different views on the truth I have not been part of the herd so who knows what the truth is in any case so I would go by my conviction and I'm not forcing anyone to follow what I believe in I won't go into details of that case sure but I I don't sit on the fence ishan in anything and I think it's not in my nature B it should not be in Indian journalism obviously with facts at hand now as far as backtracking which you said earlier I've truly not backtracked on anything I have not backtracked on any story I do and I have found sometimes that in the moment if you backtrack you may regret it later sometimes the truth takes time ishan I give you two examples I just told you about Devas


you two examples I just told you about Devas Israel yes now it has taken all these years for a Court verdict to come 12 years um polker yes okay at that time it was seen to be done and dusted in two months right and the entire media went with whatever the Maharashtra government said why didn't they raise questions I didn't Backtrack on palger I didn't Backtrack on on Devas ISRO um I wouldn't even Backtrack on 2G and these are stories I have done and sometimes it's a question of emphasis there are two ways of doing a story you want to do a story to give yourself enough leeway for an Escape Route later example being adarsh U.S housing scam if a journalist wants to kill a story he can kill a story you can call it a housing scam and that's a sure way to kill a story you name it no no because if you call it an environmental issue housing scam and coverage in page three part of the environment page you're killing the story I


of the environment page you're killing the story I was the only person who called it Cargill for profit I didn't break the story I rebranded the story deliberately and a lot of journalists were upset with me he's trying to take ownership for a story we broke and I tell them what what impact did your coverage have for six months because you were covering it without conviction without passion you are making it a story of a building that has broken environmental rules we made it a story of politicians using deceit and falsehood yeah and shooting of the shoulders of supposed allocations which were meant for families and taking that money and that property in benami assets for yourself so we have actually went to the nub of the matter nub of the matter and you can ask the then chief minister if you ever interview him you ask the then chief minister of of Maharashtra whether he called me and I told him I'm not backtracking you think ishan and your people know this who are


you think ishan and your people know this who are watching this you think over the last 15 years of my life hundreds thousands of politicians have called me to backtrack now they've stopped calling because they're convinced that I'm a Madman now the point here is you want to share one conversation I will mention it on and off record I said I'll write a book one day but but the point is all you have to tell the politician is outside I'll pull the camera you speak speak on camera speak on camera but even the politician by the way he lost his job two days later right we have broken stories that have upset people yeah and we are not in the business of making people happy when I first did IPL you know so many people lost their job did I do it to make people lose their job no that was The Accidental part there is no thought in it I went with my conviction there was something hanky-panky with the coachy IPL I thought then it cost people their job


IPL I thought then it cost people their job it cost people their franchise we're not in a popularity race but since you use the word backtrack I'll tell you confidently from then to now I have never backtracked I've gone to jail and back but I have not backtracked sometimes I am sure that in the fullness of time the truth will come out it did right with this whole thing in the fullness of time it does but what happens at that moment there are so many other influences if you want to be open to the influencers then you'll think and maybe you will be forced to backtrack I tell journalists and reporters don't do the story if you have to backtrack later when you did this whole thing I mean when that whole Sachin was a uh episode happened I was on air with you with your team when that team came in to pick you up and I seriously didn't think that they'll drag you through jail I I thought it's going to stop it's going to


I thought it's going to stop it's going to stop now now and you know I mean your even your anchors were like no it's not stopping ma'am it's going to continue I said any rogueling I didn't believe when I saw those machine gun carrying guys coming and your family out there being pushed and shoved I I it was it was terrifying at least for for viewers and I had so many people calling me up and said are you watching it yes I'm watching what's happening it was it was terrifying and then they sent you uh to jail what was that like or not that period I mean you didn't talk about it for quite some time you didn't you didn't say what what you went through that those jails the loja jail and all is where terrorists are there Mafia accused are in that jail what was it like for a journalist for and a an army officer son you grew up in cantonments all that no Godfathers it's a very yeah that's