is also a time when you know when women were voting it was they would openly say that Jose like what the husband is going to say we're going to do or what the sarpanch is going to say but uh increasingly at least in two general elections that in the past two general elections one they don't say whom they're going to vote for and not necessary that they're going to vote with what the absolutely sarpanch has told about Bihar was a classic example the last Bihar election was a classic example we just didn't know who they were going to vote for both so that is a very smart way of doing it and I think most of the political parties and the Consultants have become more powerful than the political parties yeah that's another thing about Consultants uh that that you know that now this rise of Consultants uh the non-political consultants in the sense that they've not gone through the politics agnostic but they'll work with all political parties correct they've not worked with the dhul


political parties correct they've not worked with the dhul mitti they don't know the ethos of a political party they learn the ethos for the sake of an election they're not ideologically driven they are they are it's the winnability that they are working on how do they build a narrative and once the party wins they become part of the setup and they then get that lateral entry which causes you know I can't think of the English word yeah so how do you do you reconcile with that that okay we are going into this American way of democracy where we need these strategies otherwise it's not possible to win elections actually constancies are so big uh for every Member of Parliament having six assemblies under them and then the population in every assembly is um a lot and if you look at the MP lab funds though people keep abusing criticizing Etc MP funds are never enough to be able to cater to such a large population so at that time when you are absolutely into the last


at that time when you are absolutely into the last year of your uh you know election uh your elected term that's when you start to realize okay we'll need some support to be able to streamline this and to get to get people to know what all we've done because uh right but Twitter foreign Ty dipstick surveys and surveys everything becomes so important but then women come out and they say how voted so their reliability is also you know these Consultants reliabilities also comes under the cloud so how do you ensure that they are not deciding your winning combinations but they're ensuring that they're building a narrative I think that is how we uh politics is moving I think BJP tried this Congress tried it Regional parties are trying it and then realizing for example uh West Bengal TMC understood that you know they their connect has to be direct it cannot be via some person in between right uh now you know you are in a party which is in a state of flux and I don't


which is in a state of flux and I don't know by the time we now we're recording and by the time we air it you might lose your symbol you might get a new symbol the name of the party is in flux which who which party are you going to be that also Nobody Knows by the time the formulations change you know in the in the party due at any point of time think that galti yoga not at all and let me tell you there's going to be no confusion about which side of the faction I'm on I am without Reggie I will repeat this like 100 times over even if there are three people five people ten people we are going to be fighting this out but I also know very clearly that the huge support that has come forward especially the women in Maharashtra right now is worth observing it is worth observing so what is being discussed here are the Election Commission in customs but the it is only working to consolidate that this has happened incorrectly has


to consolidate that this has happened incorrectly has bypassed all civil behavior of democracy Democratic principles and constitutional Norms Maharashtra is if you've seen its voting pattern it's pretty clear it doesn't go backing one political party it you know divide the votes usually are divided so uh but we are seeing we are seeing a consolidation happen and hopefully we will continue to build on that momentum because uh the acceptability of that faction is really um was a challenge we are in 22 now 24 is you know when the Lok Sabha elections happen yeah assuming the elections will happen so we are assuming that you know sometime mid-2024 we'll have the looks of elections in your assembly elections does Mr takare have enough time on his hands to still you know tell people that you know yes I'm out of power yes things have gone wrong but I'm there I'm going to be able to will you be able to you know uh come out at the as a leader that people saw him probably


at the as a leader that people saw him probably in so uh two things I'd like to say here eight um I see an Assembly Election happening much before 24. for the sustainability of this government I honestly have my doubts because even if you look at the 10 schedule you look at the anti-defection law you look at the election commission there is no leg for them to stand upon very honestly anti-diffection law very categorically States leadership you defect to the uh but to defect to another party to join another party to merge into another party or and that merging into the party will be decided by the party president not you as a flow leader or a CLP leader because legislative party in the 10 schedule makes it very different from a political party makes it very different from a parliamentary party so that that is that that is one argument and if you look at the Spirit of anti-directional clearly either you go to the people with a new party are you preparing for that they will have


new party are you preparing for that they will have to prepare for it they're not the ones who's going to be suspended no but are you ready for uh yes yeah absolutely absolutely the polls and to your question about uh building on that momentum uh little history about even if you look at how shivsena has functioned every time we have seen this kind of of course the the level and scope is much higher what we see right now but at that point in time SRI Raj thakre leaving the party someone from the family leaving the party and accusing of everything uh we we continue to fight he took a different name he was a nephew chief minister everything leaves goes to Congress then he goes to BJP and now every day from you know all the press conference so that happens but it's this is a much on a much larger scale of course of course and if you don't get the symbol you don't get the name or if the name gets split into two this faction and that


the name gets split into two this faction and that faction yeah if it no not not necessarily but whatever you know if it becomes shiv Cena shinde or shiv Sena takare or whatever do you do you see a dilution of uh the vote share no um I it is it is very clear that this is a very short-term arrangement for the bharti janta party to back someone but I doubt I have sincere doubts see ultimately the water votes and the water the sentiment that we see on ground right now is very clearly of a betrayal would you would you advise to do something like a Bharat jodo in Maharashtra we are actually Aditya is already doing that he's been touring the length and breadth of the State uh he's gone through the 40 assemblies where this Rebellion happened he's been there the members of parliament who have suicides so those are the constituencies he's been there too first um uh udavji will also begin he was he's making a plan


will also begin he was he's making a plan pose to share our we have posted the share a rally because that was the immediate challenge for us we've done that so pass that bypass the kind of popularity that you all would have seen that came naturally organically for him uh and moving forward I'm sure he'll do the Maharashtra to it as well and what about you what do you see your uh future in the party so as far as I'm concerned I have uh I would say that in terms of uh doing whatever I can in whether it is the pratham initiative whether it is the mahila agari whether it is in the parent party whatever responsibility that comes my way I will like I said I have always given my hundred percent I'll probably this time we'll have to give it more than that so you're going to tell your trolls in social media I'm here I'm not leaving yeah I don't need to explain to them okay that's the spirit thank you so much for speaking thank you


the spirit thank you so much for speaking thank you so much thank you so much for having me that was my conversation with Member of Parliament Priyanka chaturvedi thank you for listening in please like And subscribe to whichever Channel you have heard this on namaste foreign [Music]


we hit back after palawama we cross the line of control we overflow Pakistan occupied Kashmir we crossed the international boundary we hit inside proper Pakistan balakot is in Pakistan is not in Pakistan occupied Kashmir so that is where we Bridge their air defense system we Bridge their Pakistan Air Force we hit and we came back safely now that is the strength military strength of a Nation Pakistan Army till date has not been able to answer to the public foreign foreign welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is General kavaljit Singh dhillon now many of you might know him from his Twitter Avatar was this legendary tweet that he did about Kashmir and now it's in a book form many of his friends and colleagues know him as Tiny Dylan even though he's six feet plus but then he was once on the hot seat in Kashmir Jen Dylan thank you so much for coming to my podcast it's an honor to have you here so uh we all know you uh


have you here so uh we all know you uh as the man in the hot seat in Kashmir uh we also know you from your Twitter Avatar and specially your uh that famous tweet kitne gazi eye that is that was a legend when you made that and you know so many people admire you for being so forthright on Twitter but of course I mean uh you were there when pulwama Bala caught all these things I'll come one by one uh to all of them but my first question of course would be on bulbama you were there you were posted in Kashmir then yes so you know there was a lot which was talked about that it was whether it was an intelligence failure whether it was a systems failure could you tell us what happened then good afternoon first of all Obama was a very sad incident it was I had taken over 15 core on 10th of February and 14th February happened so it is just after four days and initially we did not know the magnitude of the incident but


we did not know the magnitude of the incident but by and by when you came to know when the number of casualties became clear we realized how big the incident was and coming to your question specific was it an intelligence failure here I would like to clarify a few things we have enemy who is always up to a mischief on the line of control inside the hinterland in Kashmir in Mainland India every time so the number of incidents which are avoided or which are not allowed to take place because of the intelligence agencies the security forces the synergy those incidents or the numbers don't come out in the media or in the public domain and there's a reason for it Suppose there is an incident which was to happen and we have got the with of it we picked up the chatter and we avoided that incident now if we announce it that this has happened and this is what we did and Pat our backs openly the enemy would come to know how we picked it up and how we not


know how we picked it up and how we not allowed it to happen so it's a game in the intelligence where you don't say what you have been able to avoid right so that enemy doesn't pick up your capabilities your resources your assets so coming back to palawama if out of 100 incidents which were planned by the enemy 99 are not allowed to happen and unfortunately I repeat again unfortunately one incident happens and that incident happened to be a very big one so that does not mean in any way that the intelligence agencies are not doing their job because they were able to avoid say 99 robot or numbers one is incident is unfortunately that's agreed but we cannot start blaming our intelligence agency or Security Forces because they are in the line of fire literally every day they're away from their families they are losing their life and limb of course for the nation and I would request all those people who shouted from the rooftops that it was Intelligence failure to spare a thought spare a thought that


failure to spare a thought spare a thought that type of job we are doing there is a whole nation which is behind this there's a proper regular army which is doing all this now to curtail the actions of those people which are being planned at that level it takes lots of efforts but so my question is it's not to castigate but to ask where was there some systems like the the Sops were not followed maybe that there was some failure in that would you say Mom I have seen Kashmir like you have seen for last more than 30 years how initially the Conway used to move how the road used to be closed the link roads used to be blocked and nobody was allowed to come on the roadside then when the terror graph came down when the incidents came down the piece more or less got established so a lot of things were relaxed it was because the general public was feeling the pinch and there were somehow not allowed to move on the road where the military convoys or the


on the road where the military convoys or the BSF or the police conways are moving so buy and buy with this civilian traffic also coming on the roads and over the last 30 years the number of vehicles which have increased the automobiles the two wheelers which have ingredient people are using it so there was uh I'll say very less checking or control over the civilian traffic onto the roads when the military convoys were moving yeah so the terrorists took advantage of this uh relaxation of our security forces wherein we were doing it for our public they are good and they took advantage of this and they in a civil vehicle in a civil mode they entered the convey and rest as well where they blew off the vehicle so if those civilians were not allowed on the road this incident would not have how did it change the situation on the ground because uh an attack like this it does demoralize so how do you how do you keep keep it going with your with your men how do you keep


going with your with your men how do you keep them motivated when something like this happens so many casualties exactly the same point how to keep the morale High I had written a detailed chapter in my book which we can talk later but on that day on Twitter on Instagram on Facebook for next three days from our dialogue from a popular Hindi movie how is the Josh was changed to how is the Jesh referring to jaise Muhammad especially all the Pakistani handles so we knew as a system as a security forces that we need to hit back at the earliest I still remember going for a meeting that evening where all the security agencies and the intelligencies are meeting my ADC a young Captain he asked me sir pardon my language I will get the bastards and we did exactly that as a very concerted effort of intelligence and security within 48 within 100 hours we eliminated the module which had carried out the plurama incident and that is where the morale which you refer to morale came


where the morale which you refer to morale came back the best way to liven up the soldiers morale is to achieve success in soldiers life incidents will happen bad incidents will happen that does not mean we sit back and keep crying over it I'll tell you about Special Forces of India Whenever there is an accident when the parrot drop from aircraft sometimes the parachute doesn't open or malfunctions or there's something which goes wrong when there is an incident within next few hours the whole Battalion goes up and jumps again the commanding of the leading this is how you bring in the confidence back this is how you keep the morale High and success is the best medicine to have high moral and we achieved success within 100 hours do you think that pulbama in some way was a turning point where even the political leadership felt that this cannot go unavenged now every incident of Terror in my opinion needs to be hit back we as a nation a nation of our strength not only


as a nation a nation of our strength not only in Manpower but economy and Military we cannot afford to take any nonsense from anyone we need to hit back and I'm very happy and glad that the government decided to hit back and I was part of that so there is no way we can take Terror in any form on any citizen of India at any place in India you had a question uh Ajit on pulvama that you wanted to ask about uh sir uh when you people uh when the attack happened you had just taken over uh and uh I remember it very uh clearly we had met you at the maneksha center where you told us that I'll be going this would be exciting day 15th core 15. there was some function in manaksha Center yeah so uh you were very excited to take up the assignment when the news first came to you how was the feeling sir was it in some way were you were you worried that oh what has happened I've just come


that oh what has happened I've just come and this has happened for 10 years you had done before this was three ten years total of eight ten years ago sessions and six of them in Kashmir in Kashmir so yeah this was sixth one this was the sixth one okay so how how how did you react personally sir like we know uh how you motivated others how you took out Jazz Terrace how you took out the entire network how people were afraid to join Jess after this incident but what was the personal feeling sir so personal feeling like I told earlier initially the gravity of the incident was not very clear in first few minutes as would happen we call it fog of war or in a combat situation the clarity comes slowly and slowly so when the moment this incident happened I called up Mr zolofkar Hassan who was igp crpf and he had also got the intimation just then I immediately put in all the aviation resources that the helicopters at my


all the aviation resources that the helicopters at my command in my dispose at my disposal in 15 core all the helicopter fleet was put on a lot and told to fly to palawama to pick up the coyotes the 92 base Hospital was told to get on high alert all the doctors the nurses were told to report to the trauma center in wherever they are whichever dressed they are and they were prepared to handle massive casualties all the ambulances in Srinagar were got together and moved towards palawama so that anyone who is not able to be flown out can be moved by what because just for 20 odd minutes drive from there so first thing was this to manage the casualties in the meantime when I spoke to the Brigadier who was Aeros sector Commander when he told me the type of the losses which have taken place I spoke to the dgmo Jalen Johann present CDs was the dgmo I continuously uh kept speaking to him and kept giving


continuously uh kept speaking to him and kept giving him the updates and spoke to Jal rawat who was the Army Chief at that time and thereafter once we manage the casualties and as a commander in any combat situation you can't afford to lose control of yourself if you lose control of yourself you lost control of the situation incidents will happen situations will come in the combat zone which you have to face unfortunately for me I had number of 10 years before that and I had various encounters and cases so it was nothing new to me but yes the the the gravity was new to me but immediately after that we had a meeting that evening and there afterwards like I said earlier we go down to business of gathering intelligence and here I would like to say it's not that the intelligence came in a lap we've worked for it for next 48 hours none of my commanders or commanding officers or police SPS or digs none of them slept for next two days they were


of them slept for next two days they were continuously on operations were hitting all the known or slightly known hideouts or the sympathizers places so that we don't let them come to a place and relax we wanted them to keep shifting if they will shift they will talk people will see we will get the intelligence so we've worked in a very concerted plan to get the intelligence about this module which finally after 48 hours we got it in pengalana village and we launched an oppression immediately we coordinated the whole thing with police crpf intelligences and we Lodge the pressure and in that oppression in the initial few minutes but hats off to 55 raster rifles and Jammu Kashmir police not a single boy had the lowering of morale in spite of the initial setback and we eliminated the complete module by evening of 18th February right so you uh you mentioned General rawat we all know you and uh General rawat had a special relation and he had firm belief in you and sometimes


relation and he had firm belief in you and sometimes mom he told us that uh one day it was a kargil widgets all three Chiefs had gone to lay president then president was had come down to Srinagar I was with the president at the Srinagar airport and all the chiefs were in Lay but the president could not fly to because of the weather and he laid that he said the Srinagar yeah uh this war memorial which we organized within 30 minutes and the president led the wreath and paid his homage incidentally Cargill war was fought under 15 core that 10 14 core was not there so all the names of the Cargill uh was from there in that war memorial yeah so it was absolutely in place for the president to Las told me one day the weather is packing up so he says yeah so uh sir I just wanted to ask you pulvama happened he was the chief what was his mandate to you the chief he gave you a lot of space


you the chief he gave you a lot of space he was very clear he gave you space for oppressions for intelligence for administration he was not the one who would keep asking every five days or 10 days or 20 days what's happening why this why not he appointed your court Commander then he'll let you be there afterwards it's up to you to call up the chief and give him a feedback if something very important has happened although he never interfered with the job now coming back to specific about palawama like I said earlier I was feeding the dgmos feeding the Army commander and I spoke to Jal rawat he never asked me because every time a senior officer calls you up to check on what you are doing it creates an environment of pressure he himself being such a combat man having been an oppression throughout his life he realized the importance of not calling up the field Commanders I learned this one I also never call up my field commanders so he gives space and feedback he


field commanders so he gives space and feedback he was always getting so he was very sure that things are moving in the right direction but he never interfered at the ground level so um from pulvama let's go to uh what happened at Bala Court you know there are so many versions that one has heard you've heard politicians talk about it there's media reporting and there was a lot of controversy also so you know the Pakistan got the narrative lead on that and they managed to manipulate uh International opinion and to some extent even Indian opinion in the media in certain sections of the media so while there was an operations part of it there was also the ground situation in India and then there was a media element to it you saw all that happening so could you give us shed some light on what happened then from I'll put it little differently point is we did it we hit back after palawama we use the Air Force we cross the line of control we overflow Pakistan occupied


we cross the line of control we overflow Pakistan occupied Kashmir we crossed the international boundary we hit inside proper Pakistan balakotas in Pakistan is not in Pakistan Kashmir so that is where we Bridge their air defense system we Bridge their Pakistan Air Force we hit and we came back safely now that is the strength military strength of a Nation now on ground people can have their own versions I will go by what the government and the Air Force version is and that is what is final with me I will not go into the politics or what the politicians are saying as a soldier I would know if our Air Force has reached there they have bombarded that place they have achieved their aim now I am not going to quantification because that would get into the political uh Arena which I want to know what did your people feel then on the ground you know those who lost uh their men they they might have lost family uh in polvama and and of course you eliminated the terror but uh Terra module as you


eliminated the terror but uh Terra module as you said within a hundred hours but then when balacode happened it must have given this surge of confidence isn't it um I'll give you a small uh if I happened where we lost 40 crpf bravehearts line of control in kupada sector is at a different level there are different units the Army deployed there when our aircraft crossed the line of control by the way they went into balakot through my area so when they crossed the lane or control the boy on the duty there told this company Commander he called me up directly and the choppiness the Josh in his voice but that is what balakot did to the morale of every Indian not only a soldier I could see that thing on the telephone earphone and the way this young boy young major was trying to tell me sir guy but he he couldn't even wait to tell his children you can see uh General that in spite of so many operations you're getting emotional even


spite of so many operations you're getting emotional even thinking back on that because it was important for us to hit back and I'm very glad that government decided to hit back and hit back hard but these are decisions which are taken with a lot of foresight and it takes a lot of planning I mean that every time there is an incident you hit back immediately but to restrain yourself is also a big task isn't it I'm it's a very considered decision you have to weigh the pros and cons you have to wear your own vulnerabilities you have to wear your strengths you have to see enemies vulnerability and then you hit you go to cover your deficiencies and vulnerabilities before you hit so that in case there's a Counter-Strike you don't get hit further badly right so this is a military appreciation and I'm glad it was done to the Precision and when we decided to go in nobody knew including Pakistan that tonight Indian Air Force will go in and that is the


Indian Air Force will go in and that is the type of secrecy which was maintained talking about secrecy I mean you've done uh Intel uh like I said earlier that you must be seeing because you're so active on social media that when you see this kind of disinformation deliberate misinformation which goes on month to say that what she's saying is wrong with I have the information but you can't because when you are in this hot seat you cannot you cannot tell them that what you are doing what you're saying is wrong but the real stuff is this I remember the lighter note a lot of noise is always good for intelligence fog of War as you wish so that your actual intelligence then doesn't get picked up okay you had a question on Balor Court sir uh I wanted to ask you like uh 2016 when URI happened the special forces were sent in to Pakistan that was a surprise and uh so they never expected that we'll come back so hard this time in post Paloma the Air Force


so hard this time in post Paloma the Air Force was given the opportunity and they did what they had to they crossed over attacked was the Army also ready with a plan at that time sir because it was your area it had happened in your AR uh was the Army also ready with options to carry out cross-border strikes I don't know how much you are into Sufi music or guzzles this is a very famous Ghazal but yes URI was there I forgot completely to ask about URI I mean that that got famous of course when it happened then I had interviewed at that time even the Prime Minister would URI and he's he spoke about that and he you know I told him that when that when that strike happened suppose the people didn't come back our men didn't come back alive then that comes on you that you're a warmonger and you've also you know your men had also gone so he did say in his own way that it would it till they came


his own way that it would it till they came back safe and his first question was that his first question to his people whoever he called up I don't know he was monitoring them he was monitoring he just wanted to know have all of them come back alive what they have hate were how much success and all is a later part but prime minister was very very clear that that he wanted to know have not leave behind anybody man leave behind I mean that's that's legendary that you you know the Indian army doesn't leave behind uh any of their people so can you tell me how uh URI was was also another success Point surgical strike of URI was a wonderful oppression very meticulously planned with military position and the point which you made about suffering casualties during operations my way of looking at it is some things are too honorable to even die for so when you are doing an operation for your nation even dying is okay it is part of the training you and not leaving Men


is part of the training you and not leaving Men Behind in NDM you don't leave your bicycle behind if a bicycle gets punctured or the chain breaks or anything you carry it lug it on a shoulder you don't leave it behind like I said it's part of the training so in training we are told not to leave a bicycle behind how can we leave a man behind Indian army does not leave its dead behind unlike Pakistan Army which during Cargill left their soldiers on the Indian soil and refused to reclaim their mortal remains even when offered it is the Indian army which gave them a decent value as per the religious rituals yeah yeah and they refused it even during when I was the court Commander in kupada sector the five dead bodies were lying on the line of control they were trying to infiltrate they refused to take them back we have different heaters our value systems are different so our culture is different as you told us to your boy saw


different as you told us to your boy saw the aircraft going across the loc and hitting in Targets in Pakistan what was the preparation that you did for the uh counter attack from the Pakistani Serpa because they did come back on 27th operation Swift where they missed all the targets uh that is a different story but how was the Army prepared how how you had planned to check any retaliation from their side on ground I'll answer a question in two parts one is a very good journalist you are insisting on the same question again second is we had covered all eventualities and all contingencies I will leave it at that all contingencies were catered For and did they try to do anything on ground the Pakistan they are not come to article 370. when uh when the when it was taken off uh entire media by the way man this question of did Pakistan do anything Pakistan Army till date has not been able to answer to the public because foreign yeah article 317 I'm going to ask you on that


yeah article 317 I'm going to ask you on that because uh you know the media uh abroad and even some part of Indian media said or you know observers military observers they said that the death toll would be you know close to a hundred close to 200 300 and even could go up to thousands everybody thought there would be massive Bloodshed the whole operation was done in such a secret manner there was a lot of movement previous day nobody knew okay even the governor was giving mixed signals couldn't understand what is happening there must have been a lot of planning I'm sure you can't reveal much about what happened and how the planning to it but now that a little time has passed could you give us a glimpse about the pre-stage of Articles how did you prepare for what happened now firstly it was a government's decision to abrogate article 370 35a delimitation and reorganization of the state into union territories uh for us as a security forces it was to be implemented the


as a security forces it was to be implemented the government's rate must run on each and every inch of ground of India we could not and we would not have allowed anyone to not allow Indian government state to be run in India so for us the aim was very clear it's a government decision which has been passed by the parliament accented by the president honorable president it has to be implemented now coming back to your point as to before 370. I have written in detail in my book and I've only written about two percent of the actions which were done still it has taken three chapters oh my God and the type of preparation which was made knowingly unknowingly and most important was the point to maintaining secrecy in the Army in May 15 core not a single person knew as to what's going to happen same was the case with the police the Civil Administration very very few people knew what is going to happen that was the secrecy and every eventuality every contingency was scattered forth so there's


eventuality every contingency was scattered forth so there's a lot of details which were coordinated one thing I can tell you all the discussions happened between two and a half people in core commanders doing room and you won't tell us who those two and a half so okay nothing was discussed outside Four Walls of the core Commander to England because that place was considered the most secure place and once that day once it was abrogated and the next 48 hours were crucial or the next 72 hours or next one week what was that crucial time period when you felt okay we haven't lost men civilians haven't died which means we are doing our job properly what was that that crucial period of time Kashmir situation can change in a second okay so when we went in after 5th of August 2019 the two amps like I said earlier one is the government's rate must run second was while implementing it there should be no loss of life of civilian no damage to property public or private and


of civilian no damage to property public or private and it has to be implemented in totality okay so we had given ourselves an open-ended aim and close to about three months not a single civilian casualty happened at the hands of security forces those was the most peaceful three months in the history of terrorism in Kashmir in last 32 years at a stretch wherein you didn't have any loss of property private or public no loss of civilian life all the casualties which happened happened by the terrorist a gun Terrace Two Gun Down civilians who were opening shops or truck drivers or Orchard owners but nothing happened from the government side and it got implemented very very peacefully the credit has to go to all the security forces intelligence agencies Jammu Kashmir police civil Administration and above everyone the avam of Kashmir Joseph you've spoken about a selective Amnesia in Kashmir of you know people uh preferring never to talk or not to talk about uh The Exodus of kashmiri uh Hindus


uh The Exodus of kashmiri uh Hindus from German Kashmir and you know moving to safer locals in in the rest of the country and uh it's something that was not spoken about for decades uh I've seen it happening you know the first Exodus the second Exodus Third Exodus I've seen people just keeping silence over that but when you did speak about this selective Amnesia I'm going to quote from a website uh and because you you you tend to speak you you tend to speak your mind just like General rawat did and this time I was in service you were in service right now it that website and I quote from it it said generals the General's plain speak is a departure from standard that guides civil military relations and cannot be allowed to go unremarked true a president has already been set by his boss the chief of Defense staff CDs General bipin rawat who has done so repeatedly over the years since his elevation to the post of army Chief since that


elevation to the post of army Chief since that has become rawat's trademark it is somewhat normalized perhaps allowing his subordinates to take a cue genza did it did you take a cue from general rawat or or is this something that you believed in and you felt that these old rules don't hold it's time to speak up now first of all whosoever wrote that um leave that at that okay now second point is ma'am I have seen Kashmir since 1988. six tenures Captain major left knuckle CEO Brigade Commander bgs score Commander so I have seen how people have kept quiet on things which have happened May It Be kashmiri panditas may it be the number of exoduses which you spoke about may it be the innocent civilian Skilling made be the girls and women getting killed at Point Blank Range the people who otherwise make too much noise decided to keep quiet on those my point is be normal you make a noise now you make a noise then we accept you but


now you make a noise then we accept you but to keep quiet when it suits you and to shout when it doesn't suit you is what mile is referring to they don't receive the hypocrisy without getting into the politics of it because that seminar was on 30 years of terrorism I said why are those people who are you know championing certain causes why are they not speaking how the kashmiri society has been hit in the same talk I had said why people are not talking about the mother of a terrorist who lost a son I have a lot of yes foreign her son would have been with her her son would have been a grown-up man would have been learning well after having got good education her son did not get good education he did not go to school he didn't go to college instead he went as a Canon folder to the terrorist and got killed in an encounter so I want these people or for that matter anyone would like these people to speak about these issues but he


like these people to speak about these issues but he doesn't suit them yeah because the mother is going to turn around that operation Mao was uh was this mainstreaming of you know bringing people who were Stone pelters boys who were Stone pelters bringing them into mainstream work uh asking mothers to get involved uh asking them to speak to their children that was a very uh it was a kind of a turning point in these counter-terror operations wasn't it or what should I say counter terror is not the word umbrella but uh some kind of bringing those you know misguided youths into uh into mainstream work uh that was something I'm sure it must have been very close to your heart yes ma'am uh mother is very close to my heart it's close to every person's heart but for different reasons but I'll go back to Kashmir as a young captain or as a young major when I was operating in North Kashmir any local terrorist who was eliminated or killed in an encounter those days mobiles


or killed in an encounter those days mobiles were not there invariably we would recover a letter from his body which either he has written to the mother and not yet posted or mother has written and he's received it so that told me that boys in kashmiri society are very close to their mother as against being close to the father maybe the mother is the custodian of the family and stays close so that is where I realized that they listened to their mother so when I become a core Commander the first thing I said was let's involve the mothers into this like I just now said no one has understood the grief of the mother of terrorists so we started operation Ma and I don't use the word surrender I use the word return We involve the mothers we involve the you know opinion makers the sarpanches the friends who this boy will listen to and there have been instances where the counter-terror oppression was stopped halfway through the mother or the brother or somebody was called will


mother or the brother or somebody was called will speak to them on the loud Heller the loudspeaker or on the mobile and try and convince that boy to come out they also have been times when the boys recharge Mobility charge had run out we paid for that recharge so that he can talk to his mother and his life can be saved and during that one year more than 50 boys more than 50 boys returned under the supply Sharma which was of course it was a thought which went in first but later on everyone joined in the security forces the Civil Administration Jammu Kashmir police even the locals the opinion makers the elders so there were people who would come to me and say sir Assurance was there will be no police case made against the boy that he will not be harassed he will not be asked to come to the police station or the court or anything there will be just no police case second is he would be given the option of where does he want to start his new life if


where does he want to start his new life if he is eligible and qualified he could have been taken as a special police officer in the Jammu Kashmir police there is a territorial Army home and hearth if he fits all the criterias and qualifies physically and education wise he could have been taken into territory army or if he wants to go to Jammu or Chandigarh start a new life as a auto driver or whatever depending on his education and depending on his capability all facilities were provided financially and administratively for them to start a new life we did not leave it at that okay is come back we followed it through them you've done so many tenures in uh in Kashmir I have to ask you this simply because uh you know there's this thing that uh there is ground support and there's always been ground support for Pakistan in Kashmir jab cricket match they support the uh the Pakistani team not the Indian team you might tell people that that's not the case there's just one


people that that's not the case there's just one or two incidents that happen but there's one or two incidents just the fact that somebody can waver Pakistani flag because in India Pakistan cricket match is not just a cricket match it's much more than that everybody knows it so when when you are there do you did you did you feel that that ground support is weakening or is it just as strong or is it so inherenta mom again I've seen it since my captain days the point which you're making yes that feeling was there 80s and 80s and 90s and that then came the radicalization and then there's one very important thing we all miss out in kashmiri society in the last 35 years or so the education kashmiri pandits everyone talks about us everyone talks about but when kashmiri pandits went out or Kashmir the way education system in Kashmir crumbled because kashmiri pandits were the Mainstay of education system primary schools overnight that system of Education


of education system primary schools overnight that system of Education crumbled and all the schools were of wooden buildings terrorists burned down all schools in the Countryside what is like what's happening in Afghanistan so that they become Canon photo and that started happening once the child is not educated the socio-political economic impact of terrorism was felt this boy and who personally you must see this whole game huriyat would call for a hotel every second day yeah a businessman Japanese school he cannot catch up because yeah and then in the end of the Academic Year in Mass promotion to the next class so as a result when he came to 10th or 12th he was not qualified enough to compete in competitive exams yeah to get into a good college or a good University or a professional College so what was he left with he was left with only option to join terrorism yeah or else crossed the border recruiting get trained and come back so this was a very you know well thought of ecosystem which was working yeah


know well thought of ecosystem which was working yeah but there was also uh we keep talking about deer radicalization but there was a time in the 90s in that Village he was the hero the one who went into terrorism not even in the hardcore areas which were considered no-go area literally he will go in and they used to prosper it's not as if that you know that Village did not Prosper or that family did not Prosper they prospered beta terrorism again there was enough money to send their daughter to a medical college or to send her to America or to send your other son to America you sent to Europe or wahape there was another ecosystem they were looked after but that ecosystem has failed that support system seems to have broken down do you did did you see that happening in your time [Music] you have to understand one thing man we all have to understand one thing everything which is becoming lucrative and you were used as becoming Heroes you have to make it


were used as becoming Heroes you have to make it expensive for that person is this is what the security forces did I'll give you the data figures which I got very often between 89 sorry 2019 and 18. one and a half two years of data all the local boys who had joint terrorism seven percent died in the first 10 days Seventeen percent died in the first three months including the seven thirty four percent died in the first six months 64 percent died in the first one year that may now becoming a terrorist was not becoming a hero it was a sure showed death yeah not just monetarily it is death death it is death and another data which we had was all those boys who joined terrorism 83 percent of them had a record of stone pelting that means today a mother might feel he's going out throwing Stone earning 500 rupees coming back now once this realization came and I'm talking with data and facts and figures once this relation came that heropanti came down and also that romanticization which


heropanti came down and also that romanticization which was happening with the stone pelters and that was done uh uh you know not just by by people by the people of Kashmir who could be misled but also by some of the leaders in Kashmir political leaders thought leaders and some of our media people also who said that no they are they are just protesters and they are people who wanted change that romanticizing went away that that was also a thing to someone I will not talk about the politicians but I will tell you something which happened because of opening up of the media or the globalization or the internet people started coming to know what's happening in Pakistan occupied Kashmir the families or the people or the boys who had gone out and not returned now they were settled in Pakistan occupied Kashmir they were 30 years of age 35 years married with kids the way they were being treated there people realize um how will they help us even if there is ajadi so lot of things happen hold


there is ajadi so lot of things happen hold went down the shelf life of a terrorist went down the economic Aid which was coming was curtailed and the life across the line of control of fellow kashmiris all these were in addition then when your boy is there you are a mother I am a father when your child does not get admission in a good school or a good Cola jury doesn't score wealth yeah and you don't know what to do with him or his life or her life foreign you still are in touch with a lot of people a lot of journalists they are in touch with you um and ma'am talked about cricket matches Pakistan people in Srinagar uh waving Pakistani Flags during victories of Pakistan a cricket team now today sir if we ask you not about politicians not about but general public what is what is Pakistan for them like what comes to their mind or what is their feeling about Pakistan uh what happened was uh after partition till 89 it was just about


was uh after partition till 89 it was just about 40 odd years so the Elder generation had seen the partition Elder generation had seen how the West Pakistan refugees who came to Kashmir were not even given the citizenship of India and how they were treated but the Young Generation which are joining terrorism in 89s and 90s had not seen partition or the Pakistan side of it but today like I said with the global village and the internet and other things coming up today everyone is very clear Pakistan is not supporting terrorism to help a kashmiri Cause Pakistan is spotting terrorism to help their own cause of keeping Kashmir card alive so that they keep getting the AIDS from different parts of the world in the name of what's happening in Kashmir and also within Pakistan politically economically militarily diplomatically the failing on all fronts to keep the anger of the public away from these things they have to play the Kashmir card and Sir so everyone today is intelligent enough understand this game young boys


today is intelligent enough understand this game young boys who have interacted with incorrect matches and other places they will tell you in a private moments that's why this is all these youth who are joining the terror groups the youngsters especially those born in late 90s early 2000s those who are joining they are joining terrorist terrorist groups for the Islamic Jihad or for the cause of Kashmir wow what do you think suppose what is the main driving force what is this point as per 2011 census 62 percent of the population of Kashmir Jammu and Kashmir that time German Kashmir was below the age of 30 years in 2011 today this figure might have gone to 67.68 percent that means two-thirds of population of Kashmir two third of the population is less than 30 years of age which directly implies that two-thirds of the young population was born after 1989. they were born and brought up under the gun culture yeah they have faced the attached issues when there is a combat situation or a conflict


when there is a combat situation or a conflict situation this shinach parades all these things your father being questioned in front of you when you're a five-year-old boy yeah the terrorists walking into a home at night and telling your mother or sister to cook food for them at the gunpoint these things have had scar on their side yeah so there is a issue there we need to understand a kashmiri person how he thinks yeah and today that time it was all the equation of Romanticism but today is a realism at 30 years of age is a man enough to understand what is right what is wrong okay so the realization is coming in coupled with that the economic packages which are going in the number of medical colleges the opportunities are increasing if the nine medical colleges which are come up in Kashmir that means those many people can join Medical College now they will not be looking for a different thing after 10th or 12th class so those opportunities the economic opportunities the


class so those opportunities the economic opportunities the education system improving slowly and slowly and then realization that Pakistan will that mute or will that negate that what Ajit was talking about this desire to be part of the Islamic Jihad memo 100 percentage [Laughter] but yes reasonable section of the society huh in my opinion which is considered opinion and informed opinion based on certain facts and life I've seen in last 35 years in Kashmir majority of the population now looks for good education good job settle life good family life you know prosperity for the children yeah good house travel abroad and nice decent settled life a family life since you're mentioning Family Life foji family life now that uh you're uh you know you've retired and you can actually you know have relaxed family life you don't have to you can have your cup of tea and more than cup of tea I think now you're having Sumptuous breakfast I see in your Twitter handle you put this fabulous pictures of


in your Twitter handle you put this fabulous pictures of breakfast and I think you know okay then maybe retired okay how is retired life treating you uh my retired life is State of Mind okay when you're working you can act like a retired and when you're retired you can act like a working person I do a lot of work for myself for my family for my household even gardening even writing letters even speaking to people whom you have not been able to interact for a very long time so that keeps you occupied enjoying like because there was a food I love food and I love cooking also yeah I have seen that and even your Twitter you know uh you take down trolls with with a lot of Grace and even when you were in service you were tweeting did you did that come up love for a little bit of conflict at times that you know because serving officers usually don't interact much even if they have they have this Shady Twitter handle just memorable they don't inform who


Shady Twitter handle just memorable they don't inform who they are what was it like when you were in service and you had that Twitter and before that I'll answer the previous question of family life so we have two families one is your own immediate family that is wife's children father mother brother sister and second is your unit judgment company and when minimum 10 months after 12 we spend with that power so for a 4G for a soldier unit regimentation that is the family operations Sagar he gave a call to me because that had happened my minimum 20 years ago yeah and that is the way families and immediate family more than our sacrifice I think it is the wife and the children who sacrifice more wife is a single point pivot who brings up the family brings up the children looks after the parents look after siblings as also don't never tells you okay there issues at home problems [Music] wife would never call up to say so the wife of a soldier is the biggest strength of


wife of a soldier is the biggest strength of soldier and from the mother the children pick up this thing yeah never in my last 35 years of marriage have my children ever told me Papa we need this it will interfere with his thinking it will be on his mind he may not be able to do his job properly so this is another aspect of a Fuji's family now coming back to after retirement yes I have full time with the family here but I miss that family there yes I can well imagine and now I'm about Twitter very interesting in the same uh seminar in my next Center where I met ajith General Bhatia foreign military operations and my senior and I learned a lot from him a thorough gentleman a world-class professional military professional he asked me he said you're going to 15 core are you on Twitter I said no sir I don't know anything about Twitter he said you must be on Twitter and keep observing you get a lot of feedback and he also suggested the


get a lot of feedback and he also suggested the same pseudo handle he says Mega handle just observe people I'll tell you whomble to follow because the people who are you know into this opinion makers and you get a feedback anyway I went to 15 core I told some youngster I served Twitter account so this is so he made an account so he says I'm all these things I said write down kgs he said no sir you are not authorized to make a Twitter account foreign I said what is social media social media is perception management if has a 15 core Commander I cannot be sensible enough what to write on Twitter and what not to write how can I be sensible enough to carry out oppression the line of control over in the hinterland everyone is believing in me he will handle the line of control which is very active he will handle the hinterland in Kashmir which is again very active with great responsibility but he can't handle this Twitter handle responsibly so I came on the Twitter


this Twitter handle responsibly so I came on the Twitter in my name as 15 core Commander chinar core Commander and because when I do it people take notice and then okay it's like I I came to Srinagar uh a month before article 370. I was there a month before uh and while I didn't know the others uh and I had it was the first time I was meeting you but because I had seen your Twitter Avatar I knew that the question I will ask you you will not fudge a reply you will give me the reply see the blunt yes no or I cannot speak about it do you understand like what I mean to say is that I guess uh because as journalists Ajit you also know that you know when we ask questions of politicians but then with you and with the others who were there what we didn't know was that the abrogation is going to take place but all of us journalists but we knew something was in the offing but yes because of your Outreach I think many


but yes because of your Outreach I think many people know about you know of you uh so you tell me that you know when you speak to civilians now now that you're on the other side of the fence do you feel that the Bollywood uh you know picturization of what the Special Forces do uh and what what you know because there's so much of glorification of special forces in in America you know the seals and everything there's so much of that in Israel you hear us and you see but in India romantic it doesn't seem real to some of us absolutely soldiering is a serious business and you see some wonderful war movies made by the western movie makers the realism is true in our case the research work which is required does not go into I suppose as a result what do you see the siyosa singing songs and that doesn't happen in the real sense yes do sing songs but then there is okay but the type of you know because as a result they lose the plot


you know because as a result they lose the plot and okay trying to protect his daughter from everyone standing uh you know image in the Hindi movies yeah but he only hope and believe jensab you mentioned about you being called tiny I mean our viewers would love to know your six feet plus right how did how did that name come for you I remember I was commissioned in fourth Battalion the rajputana rifles that is for rajidev and foreign which was opposite to his personality that's sweet and then that was also the codeword used on the radio set while communicating on the wireless and other things so this name would remain with you even operationally and otherwise so since I was six feet three inches I was given the nickname of tiny there's another officer senior to me majora he's also six three he was called shorty okay and officer younger to me who is a left now who is the color of the regiment he's also six three he was named mini but some other mini thing


three he was named mini but some other mini thing didn't stick but because he was called Carrie okay and the most meticulous officer in my unit he was called Goofy so so these names are there which so the pakistanis or the enemy doesn't know who's coming yes I mean if they if they see you coming and saying yeah absolutely right and they probably thinking yeah after that right what is the life of a special forces officer I have worked with the practically every Special Forces battalion even as a captain I had a another Captain for Special Forces sit in my banker then as a major other CEO and they are a different breed firstly the most motivated highly qualified and IQ and thinking of course is everyone's because you come through SSB you come to the psychology test but they are motivated to the Core the first time when I went with the special forces of for an ambush for eight days we lied in a we are lying in an ambush in a lob and if we had


in an ambush in a lob and if we had to go for the morning I mean just in case our viewers or our listeners and very thick jungles and we went for an oppression and eight days we were in ambush it's not that you get up for the morning coil and walk 100 meters and then and come back and make all the noise on the leaves which have fallen you just take five side rolls do the thing and come back oh and you don't move you don't breathe you eat your food there only because if you move or if you you know breathe loudly you have to hear the silence the first time I heard this dialogue okay Captain God bless his soul he got uh you know lost his life in operation he says sir you have to listen to The Silence silence speaks and sure enough if you're just listening and when a terrorist is coming in the silence is broken so eight days you would just remember that was one of them otherwise we have gone


remember that was one of them otherwise we have gone for 14 days self-contained operations what is a self-contained self-contained you whatever you can carry on a back okay okay and you survive within that arms and the man George Bernard balance whether you carry chocolates you carry ammunition it's up to you what what is the kind of food that is given these days we have meals ready to eat it's something like what's available in the open market also you just boil it and there's a plow there's a Dal there's a halwa there's a t Russians olden days we used to carry shakar Paras even today my troops like rajputana rifles yards and rajputs they preferas because that would give away smoke and smoke and fire and smells I mean smells so smells so that is not done we generally eat whatever the weight is and some little pickle and generally we prefer to eat it next to a spring you eat you drink your water you wash your hands and the smell goes okay so you


your hands and the smell goes okay so you move to your next Ambush location so what is the mental preparation that goes into a special forces person like this who knows that he may not come back home it's a again I'll put it there it's a training and second is the buddy system the three things which are very important in any Soldier confidence in himself which comes from confidence in his body confidence in his commander and confidence in his weapon if out of these three people Commander weapon and his partner buddy if out of these three things people or things one is not up to it soldiers moral the confidence will go down I will be very scared to work with a person I'll be very scared to go into an oppression if I knock my weapon may not fire I'll be very scared to go into an oppression if I feel my commander is not you know intelligent enough or professional enough he can guide me into a certain death so three things confidence in your commander confidence in


death so three things confidence in your commander confidence in your weapon confidence in your body bring in the confidence in you well we have tremendous amount of confidence in you and in in our forces and uh you talked about Bollywood picturization okay you are very active on Twitter and everybody all of us have watched all these series of how the now that's on based on real operations the Israelis have been doing their real operations for many decades we have been doing it for more than 30 years now you think sir uh we can create our own type of for the series based on operations in Kashmir yes why not because point is our oppression the so transparent our patients are so professional our nation and International Community must know how we do it when we go into International seminars with the international defense personnel people walk up to Indian army officers and ask you as to how come you have you know sort of finished the Insurgency in the Northeast and you have curtailed this Insurgency so wonderfully in


have curtailed this Insurgency so wonderfully in Kashmir the terrorism so they walk up to you with wide open eyes yeah and we need to tell our stories today's world like we're doing this podcast it's basically telling what you feel if you don't tell someone how will he know what is your worth and the younger generation would never know to motivate the younger generation to tell the world of our transparency of operations we need to tell our stories and I think a very good idea and I hope ad GPI is listening and I hope the agnivirs uh are the ones you know I'm hoping that they are listening in into this podcast and jensaf we're going to have you back when your book hits the stands I'm looking forward to reading your book and uh even though you're saying there's a lot which you haven't said uh maybe one day we'll get to know that about that too definitely when the book comes out you will get a personal copy and uh I would love to have once again


copy and uh I would love to have once again a discussion absolutely after you have gone through it and uh then you can ask more pointed questions absolutely thank you so much for coming here thanks a lot man thank you very much always a pleasure interacting with you thank you thank you thank you for listening in or watching Ani podcast with Smitha prakash please like And subscribe on whichever platforms you have listened to this on namaste [Music]


kovid is going to stay for years it is going to live as we are living it may change its character so from government point of view we have to have continuous server lengths in the whole over World it has to be surveilled for till it lasts it is going to last till human being is going to as we are invading into uh jungles invading into Forest new and new viruses are going to come new and new infections are going to come youngsters in the late 20s early 30s late 30s and so on who have had cardiovascular events it is something that can be attributed to both one is that for two or three years people were even scared to go out to the park for a brisk walk and then obviously long covet especially the Delta wave I have also been reading multiple studies that favor the long-term effects of covid on heart health now there's a trend okay I am going full body checkup Labs have got their you know some lab parameters yeah so full body check up


know some lab parameters yeah so full body check up even God cannot check your whole body if these type of full body checkup gives you pseudo confidence one thing that the nation needs to understand is that we are not superhumans and and it is not possible that you called us at 10 45 and if we didn't pick up then it doesn't mean we don't care about you it just means we might be sleeping welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash is the covet pandemic over are the covet vaccines and the boosters that we have taken are they going to keep us safe enough if we hit another wave what about children do they need boosters are the flu shots which they have to take this winter is that going to keep them safe from covet if at all there is another wave what about random tests that doctors seem to be prescribing these days are doctors losing their skill sets just because they have everything is based on a lab-based medical analysis and the therapy is also based on


lab-based medical analysis and the therapy is also based on these kind of tests which are done in Laboratories to answer these questions I spoke with Dr Arjun dang who runs one of the busiest diagnostic laboratories in New Delhi in the podcast is also Dr dhiren Gupta pediatrician senior consultant at the sir gangaram Hospital also in New Delhi thank you very much for speaking with us doctor uh Dr Gupta explained to me at what stage are we in the pandemic in the fight against pandemic uh because there there is talk that you know we might be heading for a fourth wave but then there are some who say that the pandemic is over so there's a little confusion so could you tell me where we are right now yeah uh I'll be explaining in the two ways one is a professional and second is for any human being I'm also human being at my wrong normal human being right Normal public this uh covet is going to stay for years like influenza it is going to


stay for years like influenza it is going to change the character it may come in other form what presently we are dealing with many patients might be suffering from covet but that kovid is not life-threatening that is like a mild influenza in very few of patients it is life-threatening it is affecting their life so that's why people are forgetting it now as a as a professional body if one out of 10 patients still they are suffering from covid right but we are not very much concerned like a patient it comes with influenza or with any virus like RSV virus they are in simple words they are suffering from some respiratory infection some small pneumonia or some asthma has got exaggerated because of that virus we just give symptomatic treatment no specific treatment is needed and when we talk about covid pandemic probably is likely to go in a say month or two month time so pandemic means in the whole world it is spreading so that status likely to


whole world it is spreading so that status likely to go but it is going to stay and it is going to live as we are living it may change its character unless a new virus comes with a sudden change in character with like we say antigenic shift major antigenic shift like which happened in influenza H1N1 came it came with new virus absolutely new and virulent virus which can affect some body part we are not worried we are not majorly concerned so from government point of view we have to have continuous server lens in whole over World it has to be surveilled for till it lasts it is going to last till human being is going to be oh really yes yes yes like influenza normally RNA virus or DNA virus and you have seen the smallpox also came in different way like a monkey pox so as we are in invading into jungles invading into Forest new and new viruses are going to come new and new infections are going to come so


come new and new infections are going to come so we don't know actually human science human doesn't know if you talk about kovid nobody knew about second wave when the second wave in the first after first wave everybody declared oh now we are code free we are clapping we are you know throwing uh Showers of Flowers and all that and suddenly second wave came now following that everybody you must have seen and A to Z person is speculating now another will become another we will come and it has to be true in some way so they will say okay we were truth because we were true because we speculated this way so probably the virus and nature is much more different what we much more faster in evolution than human being about uh you know that this um that covet is never really going to go away but you're a pediatrician so obviously my question to you will be that what about children uh because when the Delta wave came at that time uh you know when the casualty figures came out


uh you know when the casualty figures came out and then there was also this talk that children are not going to get as affected as adults but when Omicron came in in 2022 uh then we saw and then schools reopened so then the number of children affected uh were there now have they got the vaccines have has or have all children across the country got vaccines and what about boosters do children need boosters yeah now first question is regarding the Omicron how it affected the Pediatric age group when we talk about first waveform it didn't affect it directly as a virus viral viral pneumonia but how what happened after say four to six weeks some inflammatory syndrome in form of Mis appeared during first and second wave now came Micron right till Omicron came a pediatric age group was not vaccinated unfortunately what happened during Omicron or just before Omicron when we started vaccinated pediatric age group our vaccine was not Omicron preventive vaccine so it was


was not Omicron preventive vaccine so it was actually waste to vaccinate the Pediatric age group because Omicron was not preventable by those vaccines and the Pediatric age grew specially infants got direct infection in form of upper respiratory tract infection or severe is sort of you can say upper Airway obstructive lesions this pediatric pediatric patient presented with right so there was a difference between the first and second wave that was in form of misc that is multi-system inflammatory syndrome pediatric age group presented and following that in Omicron because of upper respect infection we have seen many infants Landing in hospitalization but there was no misc after a micron so it is little bit complicated for if I simplify the things that pediatric pneumonias were always never been major problem in whether it was Omicron or for second pneumonia it was post-infectious inflammatory syndrome during first two waves and direct upper respect infection in third wave that is Omicron and unfortunately none of the vaccine


is Omicron and unfortunately none of the vaccine even the present context none of the vaccine is preventive for Omicron that's why over the time you must have seen that yet only the children no I'm talking about in general so we don't know what is the vaccine status should we get vaccine in a new vaccine even if the new vaccine which is going to benefit Omicron should we get it done because Omicron is a milder one uh thank you for joining us Dr Dang uh everybody needed you in the city in in Delhi during the wave Delta wave especially uh tell me what has been your learning curve uh during you know this the alpha wave the Delta wave and now uh post that absolutely firstly it's a great privilege being here thank you for having me and I think the entire Paradigm of Diagnostics and especially the learnings that we've had have been Paramount throughout the pandemic and and I still remember that this was just before the Delta wave and uh just like a small


before the Delta wave and uh just like a small example are called volumes of patients calling into a customer care for collections or requests increased five-fold and this was a time when the entire healthcare industry was actually facing the problem of their staff also falling unwell with half the city already infected so I think the one lesson that we got is that you can be dependent on processes but not people and that is where actually Automation and Technology really actually made its way through the front door and I think that was for the positive as well because this was the time when at least the ivd industry or the Diagnostics industry and all of Healthcare in India also Embrace that technology to increase throughput and also serve the masses throughout the pandemic but apart from this also there have been immense learnings and and not only on how to overnight scale up especially during the Delta wave how to use innovative ways to collect more samples report more samples but but also have that process dependency and not be dependent on your people


that process dependency and not be dependent on your people because at that time our staff was themselves a lot of them were getting infected uh doctor you had these mobile testing centers that you know those Drive-In ones they must have shut down after uh right now my one question was that you invested so much in putting those up getting permits because it wasn't easy like absolutely to get those permits to set up those you had those couldn't those have continued I'm going to move away from covet because I've already spoken about covet um couldn't those have continued and you could have done like the other things the lifestyle disease uh checks which you know people don't do it right nobody goes to check whether they have diabetes or not whether they have high blood pressure these basic things are not checked and you know one is reading more and more that India is the diabetes capital of the world and things so these These are drive-through places should have continued so so uh yes so we had four initially out of which


uh yes so we had four initially out of which two are still functional and like you said both of these are currently being used for routine Wellness testing and what has actually happened over these months or years is that the patient's mindset or the consumer's mindset has become that they don't want to enter a big big Health Care institution or a hospital or a lab to get there sample done so a lot of people actually prefer just driving by in their car and getting their samples done from the car only so till date we still have two of these open in South Delhi only and one in West Delhi and where a lot of people make bookings and come in and at the end of the day for us it's the patient satisfaction and that feeling of safety that they get and being inside a car obviously reduces this exposure and maximizes safety for the patient just to be sitting in their own comfort in their safe Zone in the car and do all their tests and like talking about these


and do all their tests and like talking about these non-communicable diseases like diabetes hypertension Etc as well now what we have seen is that throughout the pandemic all of these have been on the back burner for a lot of people and obviously with that apprehension of not being able to or wanting to step out to a hospital or a healthcare space they've just ignored it even if you look at the incidence of cancers even the incidence of blood pressure autoimmune diseases diabetes hormonal diseases all these are really flaring up now because people have obviously ignored them past the 24 36 months of the pandemic yeah uh Doctors Hospital thousands of people come per week I'm sure you uh you cannot tell your patients like your hospital also right you have so many patients that you see uh this is a problem that that everybody is facing uh they don't want to go to the hospital after this fear of you know hospitals do you see that but you know whether as a pediatrician


see that but you know whether as a pediatrician physically so what is the solution then how do we deal with this issue of crowding in hospitals first issue as a doctor if you ask me this phone calling and taking advice I hate this one though I did a lot uh phone calling during Kobe time that was different we were dealing with just one disease standard parameters are standard problems we know what is happening in this patient right I did lot of adult kovid right in thousands not in hundreds per day I remember for three days I couldn't take bath during just because of kovid adult kovit calls right even though you're a pediatrician I started taking round in adult kovid Ward I used to be alone and nobody knew the treatment right even so I I got myself attached to the kovit from the beginning so disease evolved in front of me so with the help of a lot of my friends who do adult who were adult physician so I trained myself right one thing is that


so I trained myself right one thing is that second now we come to this uh electronic calling or you know online calls and all that as a patient you are going to be at major loss if you don't show your yourself physically and just take a call just taken a suggestion from a doctor write advice from a doctor not showing them physically and Googling doctor is that also that is that you know the answer right no no I need to know how is it what happens what happens uh first I'll talk about this online calls ninety percent of the things do settle when you talk to the page doctor or patient in front sitting in front of you look at the eyes and patient examination you touch the patient over the time people look at the MRI CT scan X-ray and they don't touch the patient they don't talk to the patient and that's why patient also feel dissatisfied so I always feel that this should not be done so if patient is in front of you you talk to them socially


is in front of you you talk to them socially you talk to them medically you take them proper history you write your notes and then you move ahead right then you can take another phone call that okay what has happened how are you and unless I don't see them once physically it's very dangerous for the patient to just have call and get the treatment get the investigation lab should come after they have consulted a doctor physically not just online that Kobe time is gone now yeah now the second question what you were asking last one the Googling that people are Googling the problem with the Google is like like like I diagnose the disease it said it's a temporary or it's not a I'm not sure it is just a speculation of a doctor that you are suffering some disease and you start googling in Google what they will catch 10 percent of the complicated disease process they will come as a first so you will be dead scare going through that and 90 percent disease is going to


going through that and 90 percent disease is going to be mild right so you are you are opening a dead pandara box a scary Pandora box for you as a normal human being as a population and then you become panicky and then you gain start uh you know window shopping for a doctor so you are going to spend unless a cc money you are going to produce anxiety and without any actual disease which has got some complication so you are suffering from the milder disease because of Google you have made it dedicated right so definitely you should avoid I am not talking about as a doctor myself I've seen a doctor prescribing some medication I Googled the medication and I found it dreaded side effect in the front and I did not took it then I went to the doctor I told him and I am consuming that same medication for past three years so when it can impact a doctor can you imagine a normal human normal population uh Dr Dang I'm going to ask somewhat


population uh Dr Dang I'm going to ask somewhat similar question an offshoot of what he has said you know this uh the connection between diagnosis and therapy and that doctor spending lesser and lesser time and maybe this is what patients say let me tell you I mean you may not agree with that but patients say that doctors spend lesser time with them I can understand when it is a rule setup when a doctor has you know literally dozens of patients to see in a day the the pressures are too much but then uh patients say that where doctors spent time with us touched as as Dr Gupta was saying touch the patient he needs to do that because he's a pediatrician but the Lesser and lesser time that doctors spend and more more dependence on labs and for tests right that that whole connection where the therapy is based on your tests which are done and lesser on on clinical examination clinical examination absolutely do you see that in your uh absolutely so a very interesting question and I


your uh absolutely so a very interesting question and I would say that there are both sides to the coin on in this and me being from a family of doctors I I saw my grandfather who was an MD physician and he was the doctor during the partition days he was an mbbs doctor but the amount of knowledge that he he had and the amount of skills of clinical General examination WhatsApp was talking about that he possessed probably in that time with no Diagnostics available was at another different level I've seen your dad while I'm sorry to interrupt you I've seen your dad while walking in lodhi Garden people would stop him and say kid doctor and you know this is what happens right I think doctors whenever you people go out even for dinners or whatever free May advice no I completely agree so so when uh my dadaji he was an mbbs but the amount of skills that he possessed without any dependence on any Radiology pathology etc those days in in the 1940s and 1950s so obviously


in in the 1940s and 1950s so obviously the skill levels were very high but I also feel that post that 1986 consumer act that was passed where anyone could literally go go to the court and say that okay there's this medical provider and that they they diagnose this without any documentation post that doctors have also started asking for a lot more tests to document the diagnosis and then have management based on that documentation so that has also increased the Diagnostics but at the same time I heard this terminology called hyposkelemia so our generation doctor is now are so dependent on just reports and Diagnostics and technology-based platforms to to actually advise the patient like so I was saying that they don't really give value to actually examining the patients has also happened but again the flip side is that I feel that's a very good thing as well because you're not firing in the dark you have your clinical skills you have your clinical examination at the same time you have the power of science to overcome everything


time you have the power of science to overcome everything else and then have pinpoint treatment based on the precise the diagnosis that you get right Dr Dang I agree with you and I think uh you know when we used to hear in the 80s that you know in America uh medical uh costs were so phenomenally high and insurance that doctors needed to take and that's why you know doctors moved from private practice into hospitals because you know if there is a medical legal case you're stuck you you don't have the insurance of that level to deal with it so that time we used to sing Chalo babre at least but doctor you were saying about your brother who's also a doctor and practicing abroad and uh do you do you see that now in India too that because of these medical legal cases and things like that do you feel that your generation of doctors also now has they have to practice from these big institutional or big players in the market who can protect you legally because you know if


market who can protect you legally because you know if there are cases against you it's hard to fight it uh you know Frankly Speaking if you ask him personally I am Bland of the old thoughts and the new investigatory approach right so unless you classically manage your patient clinically you should not get the test done especially in pediatric age groups are very sensitive they are like very innocent kids right right whether it's a family anxiety or whether it's a doctor anxiety am I missing something you are subjecting a innocent person for a test and next time he will be dead scare of the Medical Science so you are in you are actually imposing a scare that is going to stay a trauma in in a child who is very innocent so it's a double s food like as a doctor Dr Dang said yesterday there was very busy cleaning as I told you I take 10 feet from 15 minute per patient I don't in hurry whether it is going to take 8 PM 10 pm there


it is going to take 8 PM 10 pm there were lot of fights and two patients said that we are in hurry we have to leave something I told them that I cannot hurry up just because I want to see you early because problem is with me I am going to miss the diagnosis right and it is a loss of the patient it is never a loss of a doctor I'll feel bad so what I found another thing I want to add as I told you when you go to some marriage party people will come doctor is you tend to give some advice that advice is without examination without putting your brain and that is going to harm this patient why this casual advice you can say you are many miscarriage diagnosis secondly investigations if you something like a full body checkup now this is a trend okay I am going full body checkup Labs have got their you know some lab parameters yeah so full body checkup even God cannot check your whole body when he build your body there will


your whole body when he build your body there will be some fallacy there will be some deficiencies these type of full body checkup gives you pseudo confidence what happens you got your full body checkup just a biochemical there are millions of chemicals they are not just hundreds of chemical this lab is going to check there are millions of chemical so first of all you should get consult a doctor get him physically examine get your examine then you get your Labs so this is the problem there has to be blend between the clinical and laboratory only then I feel that we'll have best of the signs doctor we just talked about you know I just touched upon it which I want to come back to uh was about these uh tests for uh diabetes you know and I want to come to this thing about diabetes in children uh I have seen many instances where a parent said whether it is obesity or whether it is diabetes and then by the time the child hits 18 diabetes is already set in right is


child hits 18 diabetes is already set in right is it something thing that we need to do much more maybe at school level testing or what is it that how do we stop this uh issue so we know that India is you know there's a capital of diabetes World capital of diabetes and same I found that past three years either because of Lifestyle either because of covered antibodies either because of too much eating and sitting sedentary work the diabetes on rice and second disease is tuberculosis we it says again come it is the massive rise in tuberculosis casein I'm talking about Good families I am not talking about just uh you know exposed to Chulas and all that not just that no so these are the two diseases which I have got other than vitamin D deficiency autoimmune disease and so blah blah but I'm I'm talking about these three diseases vitamin D deficiency psychological diabetes and tuberculosis this is on Rice reason could be what I told you and what doxub has


be what I told you and what doxub has elaborated in and we not only need to test some way somehow [Music] so they copy you right so we need to check ourselves also and unfortunately most of the homework is on WhatsApp so they get excuses when we adult can just get distracted because of phone think about kids who have got immature mind yeah right so it gives you power but it takes part of concentration also the phone that is the major problem so what I feel that of course we should cache them as early especially at 8 10 years old child we should catch them and lifestyle diseases it is a totally preventable disease even if the family is full of diabetic you can delay it you can delay it and even if you are having diabetes you can have best of the lifestyle look at the vasi makram he's also diabetic look at how he plays how fit he is right yes so over the years probably awareness is very important Among Us and India why because all


is very important Among Us and India why because all mothers are you know pamper their kids like anything food is a substitute for everything food is the religion food is uh you you can say a way to pamper our guests Dr tank I want to come uh to ask you know to take it forward from where he was saying uh you know you're a young doctor lifestyle diseases as Dr Sab was saying is something that we are bringing it upon ourselves whether as parents whether as whatever you know professionals because we are hard-pressed for time do you think you see at least when I was in school the medical room that you had was only for injuries absolutely nothing more than that at least in my generation there were there were the teachers were only interested there was nothing beyond that like the school didn't look for that whole well-being concept is not there and my generation I think the the wrong things of eating the wrong lifestyle started from our school and college days nobody told us you know those kind


college days nobody told us you know those kind of things were not there what are you saying do you think that schools need to be more proactive when it comes to you know a healthy lifestyle right from you know preteen uh onwards what do you think absolutely I feel I feel that your younger days whatever is imbibed in you like you were saying stays with you for the rest of your life and in in your curriculum to have something that talks about healthy habits that talks about how to prevent diseases when you're older how to actually spread that awareness also among your fellow beings and classmates I think that's very important but also I think we have technology again favoring the youngsters like like I see you're wearing a wearable watch on your on your wrist that will actually measure your pulse and that will measure your glucose and that will measure your heartbeat and your various things so I'll tell you yes it came to me only when after I had a very severe attack let me


when after I had a very severe attack let me be honest with you it came when I had a very severe attack of covid with uh during the Delta wave and it was then that I was told okay you know you get to I've never checked so so exactly so I'll tell you a small story about an NBA player in the US and I recently read it and there was this person who was wearing an Apple Watch and he was playing basketball and he had an arrhythmia rhythmia is something like an irregular heartbeat and he's one of the most fit athletes but he still felt it but his watch actually showed a notification that please see a cardiologist so he went to the cardiologist just listened to this the cardiologist diagnosed him with something that we call as hypertrophic cardiomyopathy this is a disease that happens most commonly in athletes post their diagnosis they did a genetic test for three of his brothers out of which two also had hypertrophic cardiomyopathy they


of which two also had hypertrophic cardiomyopathy they didn't know yeah so they took the preventive steps the treatment and now he's perfectly fine so this is how something as small as an Apple Watch on our wrist or any of these watches that we have can can give a notification that can ultimate Italy actually save lives multiple lives mind you so this is again something that the youngsters have inculcated obviously like doxa was saying obviously there are more phones than WhatsApp but then this the Silver Lining to that dark cloud is that yes from your younger days only if you are more proactive about these different health conditions I think it can go a long way yeah Dr it's up this is very important I think specially with younger children you know those who are smart enough to understand to know that something is happening to them like you know I know of a friend whose son is a is a teenager and uh at some point of time he called up his mother who is who's also a


he called up his mother who is who's also a physician mind you and he called her up at the workplace and said that I think I need to be taken to the hospital so she said what happened saying I haven't told you but I have been taking this x drug for uh for Sleep which I didn't tell you but I have taken this and I think I have overdo post now you know while we were talking earlier uh doctor about you know Googling and the negatives but this child could figure out that what he has done is he could figure out that he has taken the route so you know he was taken and there was a stomach wash and everything was cleared but sometimes technology can affect do you I think it is it has to be Bland of both both right and regarding technology it has become so easy to get and so easy to be used by people like I do respiratory I take care of respiratory diseases in pediatric patients and allergic diseases but I


in pediatric patients and allergic diseases but I have found that now everything is portable if I want to do uh regarding this something known as adenoidal hypertrophy that is tonsil and that can lead to decrease in oxygen deficiency in the night and parents won't come to know that your child is actually suffering from this disease no yogurt pulse oximeter in every home correct you just apply your pulse oximeter to a patient to a child who is having some nasal problem some snoring problem or some sleep restlessness in the night and you will be able to diagnose oh my child is suffering from actually a major problem which is not very much evident in the daytime so I mean to say this type of Technologies are available and every each this kovid has taught us that technology has got its own uses and and people and kids are very smart means I have got two kids one is in IIT roorkee he's just entering he's very smart he knows that how to take care of his


smart he knows that how to take care of his health and what type of diet should be I should be using and and more than the parents you know if family says parents says it won't affect them but the social media especially peer group pressure that I've got good physics you what you have so probably that has that takes them to different level which we cannot imagine so there is positive there is negative but the problem is of the immature mind of say 10 year 80 year old child that is a pro that is the population which is very immature right but they take negative out of the positives so if you're talking about young adults your son uh and you know that they are aware but Dr Dang even I mean I would ask both of you you know uh young adults suddenly getting these heart attacks and dying in a gym dying at work uh everybody's saying that there seems to be something uh inexplicable is this like long covet what is happening why so many young people who show


is happening why so many young people who show no signs of ailment suddenly just dropping dead so it is indeed tragic and shocking also and there have been youngsters in the late 20s early 30s late 30s and so on who have had cardiovascular events and I think it it is something that can be attributed to both one is that for two or three years people were even scared to go out to the park for a brisk walk so their exercise their gym their games everything actually reduced drastically so that would be one and then obviously long covet especially the Delta wave and pose that when we got a lot of people that had prolonged symptoms for over over three to six months I think that has something to do with do with it I have also been reading multiple studies that favor the long-term effects of kovid on heart health and it can probably be because of both that's what do you agree Dr Gupta and uh what is the solution because as a parent you are you know


the solution because as a parent you are you know your son is an IIT you say so the pressures must be so much on him uh in addition to you know his his uh course that he's doing this also like you said peer pressure everybody wants to look good it's a it's the Instagram age so everybody wants to be fit look good there is that pressure and then you also I'm sure you know you have pre-teens who are your patients so this this whole thing how much of vitamins are people pumping in and all these supplements this is a very dangerous Trend I mean it's good in a way that they are aware that they need to be healthy but this vitamin pumping all this is how is it how detrimental is it one terminology is overdoing overdoing is harmful right one should know one should recognize their own body on capability strength and weaknesses right and something like as the parents you always feel that the you know right height right and so family and pediatric when they