had huge trade problems with Japan but yet that relationship has endured for 70 years so I think they are willing to you know manage differences as long as you expand the areas of cooperation uh they're quite they're quite happy with it you know when we talk about areas of convergence there can be many like you mentioned dhruva mentioned defense even that's uh Tech there's diff uh Pharma there's so many things that we can talk about but when it comes to uh indo-pacific um there is also the suspicion about uh America playing some kind of a pivotal role in this region at least our immediate neighbors are uh are a little antsy that you know through India America could be playing uh and you know a pivot when it comes to also with uh you know India and China kind of a thing don't you think that no I think with America there's always a conspiracy theory I think what is might say that look if you see the the kind of way in which the American the chaos with which the policy is


which the American the chaos with which the policy is made I mean it's very hard to devise conspiracies in Washington so I think what they did in the indo-pacific it's not actually I remember the debate in 2008 onwards with a lot of Suspicion in India why they're calling it indo-pacific why do they want to bring India into it yeah but I think we overcome those fears I mean it's actually the indo-pacific is about putting Indo into the Pacific so what we saw you know thanks to the kind of policies Independent India pursued India was already a power if you go back to 1945 in the Second World War uh Indian troops India's contribution to the war was immense uh Indian troops were there almost all the way up to Vietnam taking surrender of the Japanese troops Indian troops were major you know they really pushed the Japanese out of Burma but I think after Independence we kind of turned inwards so in a way from being a leader of Asia we saw ourselves as


being a leader of Asia we saw ourselves as shrunk to South Asia yeah I think what Hindu Pacific has done is really to put India back into the larger picture you know Raja you and I have covered asean Summit several times and uh several Asian readers would say that why doesn't India take leadership you know why doesn't it play a larger role and we used to always wonder we have no answer to this like why doesn't it do it I'm not so concerned about what Indians feel and that India wanting to I guess many of us are flattered that you know it's become indo-pacific but you were in Singapore too so tell me how does how do the other Asian countries see this new name absolutely I think the two things there one our own Neighbors in South Asia and they think until all these decades they've used the Americans to balance against India correct their problems with India therefore U.S and China and was seen as partners in limiting India's power so when India and the


in limiting India's power so when India and the U.S get together so for them it is a problem so they're a bit worried that their Viewpoint or say whether it is Nepal or whether it's Sri Lanka won't carry as much weight U.S and India will jointly dominate the region so that's one fear for the asean I think southeast Asia there are really deep sense of ambivalence about the indo-pacific they don't like the term they would prefer to use Asia Pacific rather than indo-pacific and for them Accord they're very concerned about it they think the quad will replace the asean so for them they got so integrated into the Chinese sphere of influence for them a quarrel between us and China and a deepening partnership between India and the US to balance China make them very very uncomfortable but I think my my assessment is that look the more India does more India works with the U.S and more the quad becomes a functioning organization people learn to live with it so I think it


people learn to live with it so I think it is a question if they see the quad and the U.S faltering against China then they're going to go even closer to China but if they see the court the U.S Japan today are beginning to mount pleasure on China they see the pressure is significant they would begin to readjust their position so finally it is how they judge the power equations and I think we're just at the beginning of that big transition where China is stumbling now you remember two years ago China is Invincible China is Unstoppable U.S is in Decline but today we're seeing a China has its own problems U.S has its own strengths so I think the picture is beginning to change but you are absolutely right there's a lot of worries about what the indo-pacific about the quad what why is India in this so I remind a lot of my friends in Asia and that look India was here uh to liberate you from the Japanese it was not the Chinese groups it was Indian troops


it was not the Chinese groups it was Indian troops so but I think that we ourselves have abandoned that history and it's really Prime Minister Modi deserves uh you know credit for reclaiming the role India played in the two world wars and that we're not a new Johnny come lately to become a Metropole that we we've always contributed to the maintenance of the internal system and that is India's return of India or to a major person that's why I have that poster Raja you know I'm behind you uh that's a World War One recruitment poster you know the Indian soldier out there many people think it's an akand Bharat thing it's not it's the world war one uh poster but yeah um tell me uh is the this ambivalence that uh you know Asia has or this um should I say maybe not misplaced fear but this uh confusion probably where is quad going where is indo-pacific going are they going to be in sync with each other also is America ramming down uh the


with each other also is America ramming down uh the indo-pacific and ramming down the quad down the gullets of all the Asian countries so you know it's it's quite funny there's a lot of mythologizing about a lot of this but if you take the chronology uh it actually paints a very different picture chronology yeah yeah it paints away different picture so few things you know one is uh actually the US was a very belated uh of the Quad countries was perhaps the most belated in adopting the terminology and vision of the indo-pacific uh actually credit I I would say in hindsight goes to a few people one is Shinzo Abe and his government in Japan who led a lot of this he uh prime minister ABI gave a speech at the Indian Parliament actually when he visited in 2007 where he spoke about a Confluence of the two C's actually he was quoting darashiko the The Prince about uh Raja time writer book on Shinzo Abe's contribution to uh to India Japan and to


Abe's contribution to uh to India Japan and to what what his his role in you know in formulating this yes so sorry no no it's true so so I think that that played a role the the second actually was it it created they were intellectual undercurrence and one of the people who deserves credit is actually sitting right here Dr radhaman he wrote a book called samudra manthan which came out in 2012 I think and and which made the case for the indo-pacific it was it it which is uh you're going to see now more competition at Sea uh the churn of the Seas that was evoked and and the other uh you know Scholars as well Rory Metcalf in Australia others who were sort of championship championing this idea up the Australian foreign Ministry actually defense Ministry and foreign Ministry adopted the terminology of the indo-pacific in their official documents uh Prime Minister Manmohan Singh when he went to Tokyo in 2013 actually discussed the indo-pacific in his speech uh there so


discussed the indo-pacific in his speech uh there so the U.S was actually a very late adopter even in 2015 when President Obama came to the India for the Republic Day there was a joint strategic Vision on the Asia Pacific and Indian Ocean region they refused to say indo-pacific which tells you how how late they were still worried about what that would connote and what the implications of that were so this idea you know it's kind of funny now to see this as sort of the indo-pacific is an American concept being rammed down the throat of because once America takes over it takes over right it goes into the driving seat even if they even they might be sitting in the back seat and might be in the corner or maybe in that baby seat in the middle but they become the driver of every relationship so so so it's just funny now to think back because they were actually late adopted to the the the concept the other thing on the ambivalence look you know the Strategic picture emerged in a


look you know the Strategic picture emerged in a certain way for many for many years uh starting in the 60s and 70s but particularly after China's opening in the 80s and 90s much of Asia became used to this perfect world where America guaranteed security to put it crudely and China guaranteed their future economic growth so they had trade agreements for China they had supply chain connections to China China was the driver of their economic growth and this Arrangement worked very nicely for many people from in much of Asia now they're finding that that is coming to an end that U.S China accomplished strategic competition means that they're having to make some very uncomfortable choices and they're very reluctant to have have to have to make those choices so we're seeing this already in the digital sphere on 5G Technologies for example we're going to see this more and more and more in supply chain now India is in a very interesting position because despite the growth of india-china trade actually India is one of the major Asian


trade actually India is one of the major Asian economies that is not as dependent on China as many of the others we you know we what we import from China is mostly manufactured goods what we export is raw materials we're not as integrated into Supply chains our economy is not that as dependent at the same time we have a in India we have our own strategic concerns about China including at the border but not just at the border but in the maritime domain in our neighborhood on multilateral issues and so for India it's much more in a much more comfortable place to have to make some of these difficult decisions and you know work with the quad countries work in the indo-pacific context um uh then then many of the other countries and so I think that what we're seeing this ambivalence that we're seeing from many countries in Asia actually reflects their deep discomfort and their uh reluctance to take what will soon be very tough decisions on many of these issues because I think they benefited immensely from four


issues because I think they benefited immensely from four Decades of U.S China integration you know Singapore for example recognize PRC People's Republic of China only in 92. so I think a lot of them were deeply suspicious of combination it's only when the U.S normalized relations with China that the rest of Asia actually normalized relations with China so from being utterly suspicious and the Americans said it's kosher to do business with China so they were quite happy making money on both sides as U.S China became on the same side against the Soviet Union uh restoration simply took advantage of it so for them now to as U.S and China begin to decouple themselves it poses what river said look really difficult uh you know situation for them because it's nice when U.S and China were on the same side today they're not on the same side and I think they they're beginning to come to terms with reality because one thing about major powers where there's U.S or China they discourse power is high remember how


or China they discourse power is high remember how the Chinese built up the Belton Road as the greatest thing since sliced bread so I think major Powers control discourse and I think once the US moved in and basically saying nice things to asean we love our sense centrality but keep doing what they're doing so I think the smaller countries will have to adapt in Southeast Asia because they have no choice very good point this you know like we were talking about being in the driver's seat it's it's America which does the virtual signaling and the others uh follow after that so you need that good from America why is it on human rights they don't do that with regard to China and this intense scrutiny on India when it comes to that what happens now now that there is suspicion between us and China their relationships relationship has soured to a certain extent how come the blinkers when it comes to human rights violations look I think human rights in the US is like our non-alignment it's an


in the US is like our non-alignment it's an ideology so there are always people saying there is a section so the U.S strongly believe in it but U.S is a power which has to constantly you know adjust between competing arguments within your country democracy noise is business more important or democracy more important strategic partnership more important or democracy more important so U.S in operational terms has always been a realistic part like otherwise more important right otherwise explain to me how did they do business with China and Pakistan for 40 years how did they they should look at the contradiction on the one hand they said you're saying Pakistan Raja watch out once we start on that we're not going to stop anyway so I think for them it is the circumstance it's the overall what you call you know take all the factors together what prevails see look distant like India for example when it's Fiji something happens to Indian population we we are pure position right about the rights of minorities we insist on doing


about the rights of minorities we insist on doing things but when it happens something happens in Burma we are far more quieter because Burma is our neighbor we want to deal with them so so is the case with U.S they can take a pure position on Myanmar or Burma where they don't have too much Stakes to punish Burma for human rights violations but with China they say no yes some sanctions here and there but we need to keep up the trade especially when you have a trillion dollars of trade I mean what do what do you do so I think it's what we say as a principle and what we do in practice are never the same so so I think it is they see if there is no competing interest human rights will prevail or sometimes it's used as a leverage to put pressure on someone the the contrast I often think of in the Indian context is our position on the Falkland Islands on Diego Garcia we have a position in India supported the Malvina they


have a position in India supported the Malvina they call it the malvinase which is the Argentinian Colonial anti-colonial uh Diego Garcia and uh New Caledonia you know you have very different you know you you pick and choose when it's convenient I can see on YouTube people Googling and seeing what was in your position yeah but but you know you have to balance where you know values and interests and sometimes sometimes you're most vocal on the values when you have zero interest no so yeah Falklands are far away we can say what we want about it nobody cares uh but you know similarly I feel like you know sometimes what the US has shown it has very little leverage for example on Myanmar so you know they from their point of view it's so you know the all they have to think about is democracy there whereas for India where we have a large land border we have you know a mill-to-mill relationship uh it's strategically important um you know you have you have uh you know


um you know you have you have uh you know flow of people back and forth it we have co-ethnic National Security groups you have to be much more practical and so you do have to balance it you know it's a good it's an interesting example of how you have to balance values and interests and like India is doing with regard to the Ukraine Russia War uh with regard to Iran is it similar yeah exactly so you look while if you know you take the historically we have always been mute when it came to Russian interventions we didn't speak up against Russian you know invasion of Hungary in 1956. Czechoslovakia in 1968 Afghanistan in 179 Russians are friends or the helpers on Kashmir in the U.N security Council so don't you don't criticize your friends even when they're doing bad things but you'll criticize the other party like we were denouncing Americans in Vietnam we were saying look how bad the American aggressions were but we would keep quiet on Soviet Union I think


we would keep quiet on Soviet Union I think secrets about real politic that you kept but today I think uh the Ukrainian question again the same considerations look Russia is a partner we depend on them for weapons therefore we don't criticize the Russian actions but I think what we're seeing today is India is beginning to adapt because as I said look out trade with Russia is very little compared to our trade with Europe and the US and second that China's alliance with Russia will increasingly make it harder for us because Russia also helped us balance China but if Russia and China Partners today against the West then I think Russia's utility and strategic value for us over the longer term will begin to decline but in the near term you still are dependent on them for weapons and we are trying to change that Prime Minister Modi talks about self-reliance and defense production we're not importing too many new weapons from Russia but we are trying to now produce more and more of the spare parts first did


produce more and more of the spare parts first did Russia move towards China first or did Russia move towards China after India moves the U.S closer that pivot when did that happen look I think until in the 90s both the Russians and the Chinese were loving the United States if you remember else in Europe Russia want you know Russia was trying to get cozy and cozy up to the west and they neglected Us in the 90s because they said they were going to be part of the West India was a part of the past so let's you know make hey with the voice and China was doing very well with the Americans so they didn't have time for us so it's really once Putin decided West is a problem and Xi Jinping decided West is a problem that brought them together and that had nothing to do with us but it is a situation we have to adapt because both Russia and China feel West is the principal problem therefore they need to pull their forces together to deal with the west and


pull their forces together to deal with the west and we are really Sideshow to that so the challenge for us is how do I navigate this new situation where are my interests near-term and long term near term we have dependencies on Russia but if you look at the long term our engagement with the US and Europe and Japan is going to grow bigger and bigger so how do we navigate that is a problem so I don't think they were responding to us at all because they were playing the bigger game and we get affected by the process right do you uh do you see that in do you see the view in in DC uh that India is trying to do this adaptation do you think or do you think that do they see us as doing some kind of a monkey balancing uh I think it depends who you ask um I think again no I think you know now at the senior level of government in the US I think there is a understanding of India's position that doesn't mean that they're happy about


India's position that doesn't mean that they're happy about it but I think they understand and they understand the Practical concerns um you know they understood that India had to evacuate when the war broke out in Ukraine they had to evacuate 20 000 22 000 uh uh Indian citizens Primary students from from them they understand that their energy concerns food security concerns defense relations actually um the number three at the state department Victoria Newland uh who's somebody who's a Europe specialist she was uh served in Ukraine's uh she was Ambassador to Nato she's known for being a Russia Hawk and when she came to to Delhi last year she was instead of uh berating India she was saying how can we practically help you with your spares can we talk to Eastern European countries about providing spare parts for into India so it's a very practical again approach somebody who who wouldn't know normally you think would have ranked India is that sorry to interpret is that one view that we


that sorry to interpret is that one view that we can't let India fail hence give everything no I think they understood they heard from India that we you know we have we have this dependence on Russia for spares and maintenance of existing inventory and um military and and I think the approach was okay can we practically help you with some of that so we're on a war with China and I think that is a situation so so again at the senior levels I think that that that has been understood uh actually today there's even an appreciation of India's position on in some ways which is you know India's helping to keep Global Energy prices low by buying Russian uh which is uh if they were not it would actually be adding to inflationary pressures both in Europe and the US which is politically quite sensitive they understand that say at the G20 Summit India played along with Indonesia and Brazil played a key role in ensuring there was a joint statement that mentioned the Ukraine war in it uh China


statement that mentioned the Ukraine war in it uh China particularly was very opposed to that at the time um so I think that the the value that India plays I think has been understood it's not necessary certainly been understood I think by the broader strategic community and you still sometimes see um you know criticism in the press and all of that but I think that's largely from people who haven't bothered to try to understand India's position when some cases can't put themselves in in their shoes and say you know what is the situation that presents itself so I think they see it more as monkey balancing this sometimes a tendency to inflate the india-russia relationship when you point out the trade figures outside of say defense civil nuclear energy and and space um you know so far it has been a very thin relationship with Russia I point out that they sometimes there were more Indian students in Ukraine than they were in Russia when the war broke out uh which is I think an unfortunate Testament to


uh which is I think an unfortunate Testament to uh you know what had been a very storied tradition of Indian students going to Russia um so I think if you if you you know present this picture I think people are very understanding of it why is it that America still has blinkers on how many more times do they have to be stabbed in the back by Pakistan to figure out uh that what they are doing what they are have been doing in Pakistan is wrong how many more times will they get bitten by the snake no my reading is somehow different I mean I don't think there is bother about Pakistan as they were till they left Afghanistan in August 2021. yesterday we have a problem with Pakistan therefore anything little that gets done with Pakistan we tend to see that as uh as a as a major kind of U.S commitment to Pakistan I think we've seen two things happen in the last one year one they gave some maintenance grants for the for the F-16 not new weapons but


for the for the F-16 not new weapons but maintaining the 40 year old weapons talk that they have second they've given them some aid for the flood relief but beyond that where is that flood Aid going I mean you know Pakistan so I think the real thing is look I think we have to shake off our Pakistan Obsession in a way because our economy today at 3.5 trillion dollars is 10 times bigger than Pakistan's a 3.5 Bill 350 billion dollars so I think Pakistan is in real bad shape right now they're only five billion dollars of reserves less than a month's Imports a Pakistan economy has never been in such a bad shape as it is well they'll continue to be a nuisance you know continuing to do cross-border terrorism Etc I think Pakistan where it was in the 1950s as a critical Ally for the West as a leader of the Islamic world as a potential major country in the developing world to one way I think they're going around with a you know asking


I think they're going around with a you know asking everybody for money that's not a pleasant thing to situation to be in and uh they found that uh the China could not reverse India's occupation sorry India's uh abrogation of the article 370 they tried to push it in the U.N security Council Saudi Arabia and uh MB mbz and embassadin UAE and MBS in Saudi Arabia the best friends of Mr Modi so this idea that the two Islamic countries would back Pakistan that has proven wrong so barring China and turkey there is very little International support for Pakistan but we must also not expect that Pakistan 200 million people with nuclear weapons one of the large armies that nobody should do anything with Pakistan you know we're not going to be in that situation ever you know Russian friends but trying after all the entire steam brand gone to show up the day before they invaded Ukraine so I think Pakistan's location gives it some importance which is the only reason it gets importance it's no I I


only reason it gets importance it's no I I broadly agree I mean I I put you know in Pakistan's GDP today is less than harassas and one Indian State it's less than Bangladesh you know you take your eyes off Pakistan and you pay the price for it I've always seen that anybody who has ever written do you remember the two times that America took its eyes off Afghanistan thinking it's a small country like you know Wag the tail kind of a situation but it does happen you know you can't take your eyes of some countries you know the the the certain ways I think where Pakistan is and we found this recently where they have I mean there's some counter-terrorism cooperation that they have now reopened the line to which seems um with the US so it's you know we went from zeroing out of U.S Pakistan engagement after August 2021 to something it's unlikely now to go back to where it was before but there is some counter-terrorism cooperation happening there is the uh the aid


cooperation happening there is the uh the aid uh relief there's another Factor as well which is a domestic political factor in Pakistan which is I think Imran Khan had gone so far in his anti-americanism that the U.S sees an opportunity uh in engaging some of the other actors particularly as the current governments let's see how long it lasts so I think that that some of these factors have are at play they see an opportunity I think you wrote about this as well where you know potentially it's not as if the Pakistan China relationship is now qualitatively different it's much deeper has an economic Dimension to it that wasn't there in the past it was previously military relationship but now I think USC is a little bit of an opportunity to kind of uh a source of threat to us comes from Pakistan's relationship with China a Pakistan that becomes subservient to China that after all the U.S did not give nuclear weapons to Pakistan it was China that gave nuclear weapons okay Americans kept


was China that gave nuclear weapons okay Americans kept turned the other looked the other way in the in the 80s and the 70s but I think I'm not saying take your rise of Pakistan Pakistan poses it real and existing threat to us even in its weakest moments it can continue to do damage to our interests but I think we as we need to manage that I mean that situation is not going to change or is going to change because U.S is doing something with Pakistan or Russia and China are going to be befriending Pakistan but I think that problem will be there because Pakistan's Elite is so deeply hostile to India but I think what I'm saying is the current situation the Pakistani Elite has never been as badly divided internally and as badly off economically and as clueless about how to change its economy into a more positive direction so those are conditions but we must never take our rise of Pakistan because it's right next to you there's no way you can take your eyes America had


there's no way you can take your eyes America had leverage over decision making in Pakistan to a certain extent but now with Pakistan and China getting close in Pakistan literally becoming a vessel state of China America's leverage becomes lesser that makes it more dangerous for us doesn't it it does in fact that's one reason at least some people would argue like it's good for us if the U.S continues to engage Pakistan to a limited level because as you know friends in Pakistan how much they do business with China their real heart is in London and Washington and Dubai and not just the heart but the other assets yeah other assets including Prime Ministers yeah absolutely so they are so eager to Elite level maintaining the relationship with the us so I think U.S has some leverage but I think for us one we have to devise a strategy that at this point how do we see the longer term how do we change Pakistan look that's that question for us can we make it a more reasonable country what can we do


make it a more reasonable country what can we do to reduce the threat from inside Pakistan and are there other ways in which we can support some of the forces sometimes or we engage all sections of the society these are different questions for example uh you know the current government negotiated a ceasefire agreement with General bajwa uh in February 2021 we thought things will improve further than Imran Khan undermined it uh so so I think the but I think the effort to keep keep them engaged in some form while being tough I think that is the new policy that the Modi government has done which is don't be defensive on terrorism if you attack me I'm going to hit you back which you saw in URI then in Bala Court second Kashmir is not for negotiation because I think the previous 30 previous 30 years from say 89 90 to 20 2014. we seem to put Kashmir was open-ended question open to negotiation but by doing what they did on article 370 they're saying look there's


they did on article 370 they're saying look there's nothing to negotiate here there is a new situation therefore you have to come to terms with it so I think what India has done in the last few years until the Modi government is to change the terms of Engagement that is we're not going to be defensive on terrorism we're going to push back or we're going to do what we have to in Kashmir so I think if we want to normalize relations on the base of Trade Stop terrorism we are open to it so I think our policies have changed I think today they're far more effective but I don't think there's any illusion that we're going to be friends with them in the near term but but we must keep up the strategy to limit the danger from Pakistan so this new situation on the ground on Kashmir and the new narrative as far as Kashmir and Indian foreign policy is concerned uh what is the sense among the think tanks in Washington DC do they accept it is it


tanks in Washington DC do they accept it is it grudging appreciation where are we where are they I don't think they care or how much of a you know it's funny it's just dropped off the agenda a number of things have happened imagine that right you and I have been seeing this since the 90s that to see a younger person uh who's saying that it's dropped off the agenda when I moved to Washington first time 2005 to seven first those people the handful of people who cared about South Asia there in in Washington think tanks cared about just three things uh which was basically India Pakistan relations and as they started managing particularly escalation uh there were a lot of fears about that particularly the nuclear Dimension two is Kashmir and three related to that was non-proliferation and and that was really it you know that was all they cared about nothing about the economy nothing about um today I mean there are still you know a few people working on that but that's such a


a few people working on that but that's such a marginal issue but you know I think a few things have happened since uh 2019 August 2019 which is you know uh coveted other other things I've taken you know so so now that's what under the bridge and uh you remember I mean every time a Pakistani foreign secretary visited India I mean it was such a you know entire media crowd yeah was so obsessed with India Pakistan what is happening the dog did they smile you remember chasing them in the U.N corridors did the meat yeah I mean we would go for non-align Summits and the only issue the Indian media was interested in was is whether Indian and the Pakistani Prime Ministers would meet rather than actually substance of the conference yeah so I think people the the kind of focus and centrality of Pakistan and Kashmir in our diplomacy has now completely gone six years we have not talked to them and nobody's even but not losing have you noticed everybody talks about


but not losing have you noticed everybody talks about did Modi get up and look at she or did she look at the first that the you know the two to tango everybody is looking at she and Modi I think that's not she and whether it is Shabazz or whether it's going to be bilawal and Jay Shankar it's nobody's looking at that anymore it's going to be just she and Modi I think that's what I think China question today is the principal question for India and what remains of the Pakistan question is a subset of the China question so I think the the kind of challenges we Face from China on our Frontier for our economy uh for our secure for our larger position in the region and in the International System China has become the principal problem so for therefore the attention rightly is focused on China well Pakistan has really become has dropped off our our radar as well as much as it has dropped off uh the American I think at the core of it is


the American I think at the core of it is the relative decline of Pakistan hmm I mean the kind of attention there is to get uh so tell me uh how is uh how did America react to this whole thing of Imran Khan saying that my government has been destabilized and they they brought it down and things like that America brought it down you know a poor I think he targeted Don Lu I think who is the assistant secretary who I think was a bit uh surprised at uh being uh singled out like that um you know you know it's funny it just it doesn't get as much attention in the media generally uh Imran Khan you know he did an interview even a few weeks ago so there's still pockets of the media that still give him some airspace but uh by and large I think you know it's it was it it did him it discredited him further if that was required that you know somebody who is basically uh espousing conspiracy theories and and like this


uh espousing conspiracy theories and and like this so um generally I don't think it won him any points but uh mostly again people don't care people are tired would America try to you know I I wish off a dictator push off a government at this stage like no no again I the the level of um you know uh particularly if you people who are at the working level in the in the National Security Community who dealt with Pakistan for 15 years who often knew they were playing a double game that working level and some of those people are now in more senior positions they're just fed up they don't they don't they don't I would go with that headline not fed up with Pakistan I mean again that's not to I don't want to uh completely dismiss again I mentioned a few examples of how Pakistan is continuing to make itself useful in certain ways you know one thing they've done recently is providing some ammunition to Ukraine uh so they they find ways to make themselves useful but


they they find ways to make themselves useful but the general mood you know particularly at the working level is we're fed up with these people I'm going to come again to the Ukraine situation uh rajat like um everybody uh you know at every meeting of think tanks that I've attended or You Know spoken everybody wants the same thing end the war end the war end the war do countries see India as somebody who can like at least talk to Russia to end the war is can India play a role I mean we never liked it when somebody said that you know can we mediate between India and Pakistan so I I can well understand you know when if India was to make the offer uh to mediate it would be rebuffed but can India ever play a role I mean is no no and I think our Minister has also made it very clear foreign look I think don't aggregate yourself look we want peace we want talks I don't think there's any illusion in Delhi that somehow we are the


any illusion in Delhi that somehow we are the Brokers of peace there's only one country that can make peace which is the United States which today if it pulls the plug on arm supplies to Ukraine Ukraine's ability to fight will go down and the Russians will only negotiate with the Americans they're not going to negotiate with the ukrainians they're not going to negotiate with the Europeans they think they're too too small so I think it's really uh it's really only the US can do it under this time no I think they're committed to supporting Ukraine and Ukraine's attempt to regain its uh you know territory from Russia but where did this ends we don't know there are voices in the US which are calling for a dialogue which are calling for a settlement but again the problem is that look it's very easy many Indians might tell Ukraine why don't you just give eastern Ukraine to Russia and then they'll be happily live Ever After Indians would love saying that but would not


After Indians would love saying that but would not do that would you do that no just or give our natural Pradesh to the Chinese exactly knowing nobody wants to give an inch of their territory and very few realize that I think when it comes to other countries so so I think it is it is we are not we're not you know in the in the business I think we're not we don't have a strength we are not the principal mover and Shaker in Europe but we have to adapt to that situation which is what we are doing but I think the US debate is worth watching because in Europe is divided you have the central Europeans who have a border with Russia they totally opposed to any settlement with Russia that does not give long-term guarantees what is the guarantee Russia won't do what it is done to Ukraine tomorrow to Poland tomorrow to Moldova so for them it's not just about you know Ukraine but this is about the nature of Russian they worries about


this is about the nature of Russian they worries about Russia's historic Imperial tradition so they worry about it but if you're sitting in France or sitting in Germany they say yeah okay let's find some solution but ukrainians are not ready to accept it so I think that leaves Americans as the most important interlocutor and my sense is maybe drawer can tell us more in terms of where the debate in Washington is at this point there seems to be continuing support but I think only they can produce the terms of a settlement and that's the reason why zelinski went to Washington to to engage with them Russians aren't Americans are in touch with with Russians uh the CIA Chief Bill Burns seems to be in conversation with them regularly there are phone calls between the U.S defense secretary and the Russian defense officials so U.S is the one which is actually on top of the situation we're almost at uh in one year since the world right so is there is there an understanding that this can only be


there is there an understanding that this can only be resolved on the table so you know three three points on this one is I think the fighting will continue this year at the very least the winter is coming to an end both the ukrainians and the Russians think that time is on their side the ukrainians are getting a new influx of weapons and things that the Americans and Europeans previously said were off the table are now slowly they're putting on the table so their their confidence is building up they had a shift in momentum late in the last few months of last year so the ukrainians think they have the upper hand the Russians are meanwhile preparing for another spring offensive they've mobilized 150 000 troops they have changed their commanding command structures so they think that they they can make some inroads so as long as both sides think that time is on their side and that continued fighting will be in their favor the war will continue they're not in the mood associate so that I think is


not in the mood associate so that I think is you know we should be sort of uh realistic about that on the Indian role I think realizing this there are ways no Grand negotiations and I don't think you want to to go there for all the reasons Dr atamon said but there are ways where India can make sort of uh tactical interventions and there have been a few cases of this so for example a statement at the G20 Summit which was working with the Russians particularly to get them to agree to a statement um working on the green black sea grain deal which turkey and the U.N primarily broken but India played a small role in in getting the Russians to live up there in the bargain on the denuclearization of um or not targeting nuclear reactors so potentially pow exchanges in the future so you know that if both sides are you know looking for an honest broker a third party India is one of many countries that they could turn to potentially if they wanted to so


they could turn to potentially if they wanted to so I think that those are some some of the things where India can play a tactical instrumental role but I think we have to be realistic about it finally on the US um you know broadly the U.S national security Community from their point of view this war is going splendidly which is that they they have no their troops are not on the front lines they're they're you know there are no American troops on the line they've spent quite a lot of money uh but it amounts to about six percent of their annual defense budget so it's a small you know from their point of view it's a modest increase but it's something that they see as degrading Russian um forces quite substantially uh so from their point of view this is a good this is looking quite good for them uh now there is a there is now though a bit of Ukraine fatigue particularly on the far left and the far right of uh in Congress in the U.S Congress and so every


uh in Congress in the U.S Congress and so every time the U.S extends another package it is becoming slightly harder to negotiate for them to say here's another 30 billion dollars 40 billion dollars that they have to come to and particularly now with the Republicans taking control of the House of Representatives the lower chamber there is a faction of about 20 right-wing Republicans who are generally opposed to continuing this assistance to the Fox News yeah so I think that that mood is that doesn't mean that it'll come to an end but it's going to become increasingly hard to sustain this over the long run and like you can't just do a blank check to Ukraine nobody wants a blank check but certainly the checks may start becoming smaller and um you're going to go into a pre-election year I mean you're already in the pre-election year how much longer can they stomach this thing you know expenditure and interest the interest I think is you know that's fine again because you yeah but


is you know that's fine again because you yeah but that's less of an issue again because they're not US troops fighting there I think the expenditure will become more of a question uh which is you know why are we spending 40 billion or whatever 100 billion dollars it'll be perhaps by the end of the year uh when we can be spending that on infrastructure at home on jobs or you know on other things the Border immigration I would like to what the U.S has gained for example I mean their oil companies are raking it in yeah and even to the even President Biden has won them but they're private companies and they're really making making it big U.S technology companies are in a big way involved in the world for example starlink Elon Musk satellite system you know has been very important for the ukrainians you have this new software called you know planetary software American software AI Artificial Intelligence being used to give you know better information to the Ukrainian soldiers to Target the Russian forces


the Ukrainian soldiers to Target the Russian forces so I think that is the second third I think NATO has expanded just two years ago president macron was saying NATO was brain dead but today Sweden and Finland which are historically neutral countries have joined NATO uh this war has helped America to put pressure on Germany see Germany had a great you know Americans were defending them they could do business with Russia and China but now they're telling the Germans you can't play Both Sides so I think German they managed to put a lot of pressure on Germany so I think it's multiple gains for the United States and I think this where I would say because Putin has been what he thought was brilliant a quick stop yeah actually has helped America there's nothing called a quick walk and yeah exactly but it has helped Americans and I think what he has done is with all his opposition with NATO expansion and the determination to push America out of Europe is actually helped America to consolidate reconsolidate


is actually helped America to consolidate reconsolidate itself interesting the NATO's dead bit one had forgotten that you know this is what was the The Narrative a few years ago and then NATO is dead and in fact some people had thought that quad is the new NATO both those busted now yeah I mean NATO is an artifice you know NATO came about again under specific circumstances during the Cold War um I don't think if you had to rebuild it from scratch today NATO would not exist uh but yet again now it has found a new purpose uh in some ways again a few years ago I mean I remember talking to Nato commanders and they were saying you know what is our purpose should we you know they were involved in Afghanistan they were doing Maritime counter piracy operations in the Western Indian Ocean and now again they they found a purpose again they've expanded um but I think the questions now about burden sharing right so are all the NATO countries this is where the pressure on Germany


the NATO countries this is where the pressure on Germany will come in are all are is everybody uh uh sort of contributing as much as they could and you know the general feeling is the UK France uh to some degree and then the Central and Eastern Europeans are but others the Germany the southern Europeans uh are not doing enough and so I think we will see that that debate emerge and not just on the military side although that there is that element but particularly when it comes to financial assistance to Ukraine the Americans are going to say look we are we are the ones spending all the money in Germany you you should be doing more so again it's not I think NATO itself will still continue to have these internal divisions um in particular countries like Hungary and others that have stronger ties to Russia don't want to see Russia push that as much into corner will complicate uh this um but I think you know the quad as NATO I think was always a chimera it was never meant


think was always a chimera it was never meant to be uh NATO I think the comparison is false um it's not a collective defense treaty-based organization it's there's no expectation in India that we'll have Japanese troops sort of fighting India's Wars on India's behalf uh so I think that that that was sometimes I feel like with the quad and perhaps we can pivot to that but the sometimes a lot of the expectations uh or assessments put on the quad are done by the people who are most skeptical of it it's always raising the bar uh to make uh to make it impossible for uh the countries to meet and then thereby say it is useless and so all these uh you know forums which open up these multilateral forums that open up uh there are the Skeptics who think that oh okay this is just a talk shop and then there are the the the conspiracy theorists who believe that everything is is something which is going to be a military uh you know organization of like


to be a military uh you know organization of like NATO uh do you do you think that too yeah I think you know we tend to either exaggerate or dismiss you know and there's one thing which never happened with Nam yeah which is the least most dysfunctional institution in that it never take the the whole enthusiasm for now yeah for example in 62 When The War took place very few online nobody in the name support in fact they were putting pressure on India to accept diseasefire they kind of said will mediate between you and China so I think the the the illusion of Nam and the we are leader of the global south I mean there is a long tradition going back to the anti-colonial movement and the sense that somehow we can build a new world in partnership with each other in the developing world or in Asia or in the third world all these institutions those who focused on the third world Nam didn't do much OIC which thought religion is the basis on which you can construct a new


is the basis on which you can construct a new world that has failed pan-arabism has failed pan haitianism has failed so I think so what will work bilateralism only yeah I think finally it is politics a balance of power you know that in the Gulf today the conflict is between Saudi Arabia and Iran it has nothing to do with religion yeah so I think it's really the interests I think when we think about international relations at the end of it it's really about interests while coming towards the end of this discussion let's talk about G20 since we are talking about multilateralism bilateralism converging interests diverging interests so with India uh hosting the G20 and how do you see the India U.S relationship in that prism then no I I think what India is doing with G20 this term I think we saw the sorry the both the G20 and the global South Summit we've had in Delhi last few days there was very little anti-western rhetoric yeah so I don't think India


anti-western rhetoric yeah so I don't think India sees this as going back to the 70s of Reinventing a third world again anti-American you know consolidation second I think that today the focus has been on how does India make its G20 leadership work second how do we consult the developing countries in order to make our you know chairmanship more successful third I think we've tended to neglect the developing countries from putting them at the center to in the cold in the post Cold War years we had to focus on the big Power relationships U.S China Russia we focused on a neighborhood we focused on Regional institutions we joined RCR and we joined a whole lot of region we built new Regional institutions like the Indian Ocean Dream Association but I think we intended to neglect them I mean if you ask anyone where was everybody yeah but today I think we now see we have good equities there and mobilize some of those equities not as an anti-American instrument but as the one where India can exercise some


instrument but as the one where India can exercise some leadership and India can be a bridge between the developed North and the underdeveloped South I think that is a more a positive construction rather than the negative construction of the 1970s so I think we we're approaching this very pragmatically very very practically and my sense is some Americans at least see that it's better to have India lead the developing countries rather than a China or an Iran or somebody else so I think they see it as an India that has strong presence in the developing world would also be valuable for them and then there is a it's not something said by any of our officials there's an element of competition which that look China has grown at our expense in the nam in the last 30 years so you want to bring back some of that influence back to ourselves uh drewa you're in DC so tell me uh uh America goes into election uh simultaneously as India and I think it's after what two decades or something like that


it's after what two decades or something like that that's happening where both countries are going into uh elections at the same time so uh what we have seen is that one year prior to America going into elections India ceases to matter it's always been the case whereas for India even if India goes into elections America will always be Central to our foreign policy to our uh our interactions with other countries that relationship continues whether the State Department officials change or not how is this going to what do you see going to happen I so it's hard to remember I think I would say one exception to the rule it has been the last two years which is you know if you look at uh every prior president after presidency since the end of the Cold War um they've really only focused on India in the second term and usually often towards the end of the second time so Clinton it was really the last two years 98 after the nuclear tests George W bush it was the second term 2005 that he offered


it was the second term 2005 that he offered the civilizations so it largely it was the first you know even Obama you know he did come in his first term but um uh it was really more on the second term that that there was movement in the relationship what's been unusual with Biden is actually the first to how intense the engagement has been in the first two years with India so it's not simply uh sort of foreign policy it could be because Biden is going to maybe a one-term president but uh it has been quite unusual that to to sort of engage with India off the bat you had the elevation of the Quad you've had you know a success succession of uh new institutions that involve India uh in in the first two years so I don't see you know again they will be the political attractions at home but Biden has a strong ended up with a stronger mandate in Congress than or less negative mandate than many expected so I don't think that uh unless there may be some


I don't think that uh unless there may be some personal changes which is very natural but I don't think it'll be India specific uh if it if at all I don't anticipate a major change before the election at least for that reason but just getting back to I think this issue you know I I think there are a lot of interlocking pieces in India's orientation the G20 is part of it the global South is part of it but it's actually many other pieces that are all now interlocking together and they're motivated by China China and China um and you know if you look today on any aspect of foreign policy today it is amazing how much it is not defined by but certainly influenced by China and in some ways that's natural right you have a global power in China that has grown on India's doorstep uh at a time when India has been rising rapidly and so it's only natural in some ways that it should come to influence but I mean just just to run through a few things you know


just just to run through a few things you know you have the quad with the US Japan Australia I2 U2 uh to to India's West the G20 um which you know sort of venue as India sees it of all the major economies coming together um the global new renewed engagement with the global South uh sort of uh what we know one thing and we talked about Pakistan but sort of a renewed focus on the neighborhood which where Pakistan does not have a veto as it did in sarc over over Regional engagement so you now have a you know connectivity we're talking about a lot of a positive agenda for the neighborhood that does not is not held hostage to Pakistan um but just even also on on some thematic issues Maritime Security today uh trade you know India the fact they endured withdrew from our sep but is engaging in now trade negotiations with Australia UAE which have concluded but now with the EU UK Canada um you know the there's a reorientation of industrial engagement uh


the there's a reorientation of industrial engagement uh digital um you know number of new initiatives in that front so you you Aid policy uh you know India's foreign assistance if you look at every one of these baskets now it's very much influenced by by China and and you know the Outreach to the US I think Falls in that broader category and should be seen in that light uh Raja what do you think sarc giving up on India or India giving up on Sark well I think if you remember prime minister Narendra Modi when he first saw Summit event in 2014 I mean I think they were hoping you know they had even forgotten about circuits only when mentioned I said okay let me ask you see remember that we had that the ministers had actually agreed on a you know more connectivity through Road and rail Networks but in the last minute the Pakistan Army pulled the plug Nawaz Sharif could not sign the agreement so after that Mr Modi said very clearly look if


after that Mr Modi said very clearly look if Pakistan wants to come with us we'll go with Pakistan if they don't want to come we will go without Pakistan which you know Indian Prime Minister said that before so today if they don't want to come you go with who you can so we're not no longer letting Pakistan stop you know by blocking sarc if it thinks it will stop us from growing trade with our neighbors they're mistaken and what we've seen happen as a group the trade with Bangladesh has dramatically grown yeah or the you know the waterways have opened up the old road networks have opened up the new railway lines being restored the old connections the pre-partitioned links so I think we are doing well without speed or without you so I think yeah so problem is for Pakistan does it want to trade with us at this point they say very clearly look we don't want anything to do with India they would rather go with China rather than go with India but that is their choice but


than go with India but that is their choice but I don't think India is any more worried about what about the Belt Road initiative one heard a lot about it till about two years ago uh pre-covet and after covet it's kind of you know the whole String of Pearls um Belt Road there seems to be has China lost I mean has the stomach gone for this I think so I mean I think at least on the Belton Road thing I mean I think it looked like it was the greatest thing ever to actually it has done badly in many places and two in our own neighborhood to countries which most enthusiastically embraced the feedback yeah the CPAC was Pakistan and Sri Lanka Sri Lanka which was so enthusiastic about Chinese projects that both of them are today stuck with unsustained they're just desserts yeah so I think I'm Global unfortunately globally in many places in Africa in Latin America there is a disappointment with the kind of outcomes from the Belton Road initiative


the kind of outcomes from the Belton Road initiative and within China itself I think they're beginning to question is advised to throw money around like this because after all Chinese economy is slowing down and they don't have as much money to dispense as that and they lost man and material yeah exactly in Pakistan even Europe was very keen on this and they were very uh bro uh these activities of the world why why was Europe so Keen I think they saw there was a need for infrastructure um they sometimes for good reasons some of the institutional lenders um and the traditional lenders had very high standards for what was required and that sometimes meant that they didn't Finance projects that uh some of these countries wanted so sometimes the leaderships of these countries wanted and so they saw in China a very easy alternative and uh sometimes and unfortunately I think there still is disability I think it's not over yet where certain leaderships will say look we know it it will come with hidden strings attached but that's for


it will come with hidden strings attached but that's for a future leader to deal with so we'll we'll take we'll take the The Bird in Hand rather than uh the promise the empty promise or the high onerous requirements of the World Bank or another lender so I think that that is that is still a game um we have seen a dwindling of Bri related uh outward financing uh some of it related to China's Euro covet policy but if you look at where it has been most successful it was actually in in Russia in fact in some energy Investments very major energy investments in Russia uh even Pakistan hasn't gone so well but they're the thermal power projects again uh did come up quite quickly the problem there was Pakistan didn't do electricity reform and wasn't able to actually transfer some of the cost to Consumers and that actually settled them with further debt but the highway Railway projects have often become stuck because of local issues so again I don't think it's going to go away completely I


don't think it's going to go away completely I think there'll be there'll still be attempts by China to invest in strategically important port um which have a potential dual use uh facility that will continue um but uh again it's not I think we'll see a much more restrained uh Focus the less of a focus on hard infrastructure more on the digital they're trying to offer now space you know new domains they will try and offer this alternative but again I'm a bit worried about I still feel like in many developing countries there is still um the sort of easy particularly those that are farther away that don't have this to have to bear the Strategic consequences they they're still in they still look at China as a potential alternative there's been an elite capture I mean I think in many developing countries they've cultivated their leads and you know how the kind of particular methodology which because those guys have the control of the narrative also there and that you pass on the cost to the people that's what


you pass on the cost to the people that's what Sri Lanka which is what the rajapakshas did and the previous opposition government as well they said look okay you accept inflated cause and presuming that it will all work itself out but today they settle with the debt and I think that resistance to this kind of uh you know just giving the Chinese anything they want looks good in the near term but the longer term costs are beginning to become manifest and like a Sri Lanka's phone now China is not willing to work with India Japan and the other debtors to restructure the debt they say take more money and give me more assets yeah so I think that policy I think given Sri Lankans are resenting it but they stuck with or with China and I think commitments that they've made in the past yes uh so finally Raja uh this year is going to have there's a host of events which are going to take place because of G20 what are the challenges that you


because of G20 what are the challenges that you see is it just going to be one event from the other or is India going to benefit uh from hosting all these events um because the opposition is turning around saying so is it a tamasha talk shop what is the what is the near-term and long-term benefits of hosting the G20 look I think some of them are going to be useful some of them are not I mean I think for example uh you know the for example the Shanghai cooperation organization right I think our differences with China are so deep on the region so we will try and limit those differences but use it for diplomatic engagement with the centralization states the G20 everybody is going to be here so in some senses you're really beginning to engage with the global governance in a in a fundamental way but I think on the question of using G20 for domestic political purposes I think one of the things Mr Modi has done from the beginning was look you must take


has done from the beginning was look you must take foreign policy to the masses you remember the the insistence on hosting you know we saw Xi Jinping being hosted so I think from the beginning unlike the traditional leaders in India Delhi he saw look the value of taking foreign policy to Beyond Delhi yeah 50 cities or something this one of course yeah but but even before this Indonesia I believe tried uh doing it in several cities 23 cities or 33 cities or something like that the G20 when they had it but they couldn't manage but maybe because of covet or whatever but uh we are going to be taking it in you know so I think that's showcasing yeah showcasing I think foreign policy for domestic benefit I mean I mean you can't blame political leaders for trying to take advantage but I think the but this was not meant only for G20 as I said from 2014 I mean Goa we had the brics summit yeah we had this whole things being distributed around the country


we had this whole things being distributed around the country so that you get a wider popular participation to that extent I think Modi content has linked to domestic politics and foreign policy and diaspora right the engagement with uh with the expat that that used to be like when foreign ministers went or when uh Prime Ministers went abroad that was like this one Sideshow which used to happen now now they are like a major part of your engagement in any country that we engage with like when the Prime Minister travels or the foreign minister travels remember when we were growing up it was said brain drain um if you go back to the until the night until watch by government which was game in 1998 the general tendency was look these guys abandoned Mother India they have given up you know we paid for their education look at them they're going out they're going outside to one where now you're owning them and saying look they're they're assets to India they're not a brain drain but they're a


India they're not a brain drain but they're a brain gain I even remember a time where uh if you were a doctor and you had super specialization you had to get special permits to leave the country you could not they would not give you a visa to leave the I mean not Visa you couldn't leave the country you needed permission uh if you had uh that's a big change I think what uh watched by government started the you know Ramadan begin all that started under vajpay so they flipped nehru's policy nehru said look wherever you are you are citizens of the country we might have cultural contacts but nothing more to BJP which started saying no the children of Mother India belong to Mother India yeah we're going to engage them far more intensively and I think Mr Modi has taken it to a very very higher level where making it integral to uh India's foreign policy so when you interact with Indians in America is there a vibrant interaction that or uh more what should I say more deeper


that or uh more what should I say more deeper interaction that they seek with Indian with India I think this is at least with the US there's a generational divide so those who are first generation still have contacts India they often studied here they grew up here often you don't speak language they still have friends family back here back in India so you know for them it is a much more emotional connection many of them want to do more for the US India relationship they're very engaged sometimes they don't know what they ask you know what what can we do what should we do um but they're also very divided in the city of the diaspora and again in the US particularly they're divided by geography they're divided by uh language and they're often divided also by profession so you have you know the I.T people the medical the doctors the hoteliers so sometimes they're not as unified as as one might imagine the other challenge I think is the newer Generations those who are born in the US who


Generations those who are born in the US who do ABCDs but I think I mean again with some exceptions this is not true across the world but the general Trend I think is they don't have the same kind of emotional attachment to India okay many times they've grown up I think it's become easier now but many of them wanted to uh adopt all the trappings of americanism they wanted to to actually distance themselves culturally and emotionally from from India many of them have visited of course but they don't have the same kind of emotional attachment and I think that that will be in future the minister generation the just coming of age but dealing with second third generation Indian Americans is going to be a very different type of Challenge and how to get them keep them engaged and how to keep up their understanding of I mean yeah they've been some efforts at trying to to do that with a pretty private you know philanthropic initiatives to engage with them but I think I censor that over over the


them but I think I censor that over over the next few decades will be a bit of a challenge but but just get back quickly to the G20 thing I think you know in addition to the the show peace items I think there are some substantive aspects to it as well and briefly you know that you know this is an opportunity with India as the chair to highlight a few issues that otherwise do not get highlighted on the G20 or International Photo so multilateral development reform um I think we'll see a lot more of that in the next few months um uh sustainability and the green economy particularly from the developing World perspective will be another major thrust uh digital public goods like showcasing in India model for that and again particularly for the developing world so I think that this is an opportunity to actually get some of these substantive issues on the agenda a debt relief sustainable debt relief and again that's targeted both at the West which has its own issues and China as well which


which has its own issues and China as well which are so again this is an opportunity in that sense to put some of these on the essentially on the agenda so I don't think it's just about the the events itself but I think there is a very important looking ahead I mean I think the problem with China now we've gone through third winter it's happening now on the Himalayas where the troops are face to face with Chinese at 17 000 feet Now Chinese are expanding that to the Eastern sector so I think our China problem is I think going to get more acute it also means that India needs to find a way to deter Chinese actions there I would say India's case for India's stronger partnership with the U.S and Japan and Europe is only going to grow so I would say the real action is not in the multilateral you know you'll have the sco you'll have the G20 you have all this stuff that's fine but the real stuff is going to be how does India strengthen itself


is going to be how does India strengthen itself to cope with the Chinese Challenge and the answer to the China problem whether we like it or not is in the U.S he's in Europe he's in Japan and they how quickly can we translate the broad agreements into concrete capability building within India can we build the weapons necessary quickly to data China are those I think that is going to be the biggest issue in my sense is we're going to see a lot more action on India U.S front and India France front or to see how India's defense capabilities can be built to deal with the Great China Challenge a lot of Engagement or more engagement in the next year and two years just before the elections because that you know everything goes into a freeze mode but I think there are major events before that yes I love the issue in this both a challenge and an opportunity a lot of things are happening in the private sector it's no longer the government's playing the role because you know the technology is owned


playing the role because you know the technology is owned by the private sector the financing is in the hands of Wall Street or you know institutional investors and so I think one of the challenges the governments are dealing with is look we now have the broad political agreements in place but how can we actually incentivize you know a private American company or european company to move its Supply chains or part of its Supply chains to India right so you have to create these incentive structures and that I think is where a lot of them yeah when the mechanisms get into place then you know things will move thank you very much gentlemen thank you for spending time here on the podcast and uh explaining things which are a little confusing when it comes to Foreign Relations especially India us thank you for having us wonderful talking to you thank you thanks thank you very much for listening or watching this edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard


subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste thank you [Music]


officers retired found an animal that had come up and a society was made to get the permissions kargil was attached to it was not meant for them kargil was only a facilitator was there a military coup somebody imagined a thing like that in the journalistic world the cover-up started with the Congress because they had more to hide than what what would have been there there were bunkers where you find things which shouldn't have been there you found women's clothings they were raped everywhere that was the way to subjugate intellectuals were short the reason was deeper the reason was how to protect mujib without Muji Bangladesh was nothing TSD it was all human intelligence I wanted to do something and that's why I said had this agency stayed you would have found a difference the PM of that time was not interested in finding out ni podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is former Chief of Army staff General V K Singh who's also the recipient of the param vishesh Seva medal


the recipient of the param vishesh Seva medal ATI vishisht Seva medal yudh Seva medal he comes from a family of soldiers and has seen action in the 1971 war and was witness to genocide by the Pakistan Army on East Pakistan General Wiki Singh was witness to the genocide perpetrated by Pakistani forces in East Pakistan he was part of the Indian peacekeeping force in Sri Lanka fighting the ltte he was posted in Jammu and Kashmir but there were some controversies in his career too a fake news item of a coup during his tenure as Army Chief the newspaper never withdrew the story even though the Army denied it about a succession battle during his tenure of a clandestine unit which he set up which allegedly snooped on government servants all of which were never proven General Singh joined the India against corruption movement with Anna hazari but moved on to the BJP which again came in for some controversy try as hard as he made to avoid


controversy try as hard as he made to avoid it willy-nilly General Singh gets into the eye of the storm currently his minister of State in the ministry of Road Transport and highways and Ministry of civil aviation in the second term of the Modi government in conversation with General V K Singh is my colleague Ajit Dubai who's the editor of national security at Ani gelsing welcome to the podcast Ajit and I have a whole lot of questions we're very honored that you've come despite Parliament session being on um I'll begin with the current hats that you're wearing the highways project I mean as per data available your government has added over 8 000 kilometers in The Current financial year uh making it an average of 24 kilometers per day but there's also these projects which are running behind schedule I think about 40 percent of the projects over the years they've been running behind schedule so can you just give me an update as to where we are and how soon can we expect that these hurdles


and how soon can we expect that these hurdles will be uh overcome let me make a little correction gee last three years if you take it is 26.5 kilometers a day then was 35 Point something per day now we are on to 28 point something per day okay now the progress of uh any road project depends on couple of things one is your land acquisition we are not starting the project uh this decision we took about uh four years four years back no project to be started without 90 to 95 percent land in our hand okay then only the progress can be done so some of the projects which started earlier where we had ran ran into land problems project will get little delayed the second is what we are also looking at is there are various materials that are utilized you require Earth for you know raising the level we require Stones you require aggregate now availability of this also makes a difference for example if you were to if you had a project in Assam and further north east aggregate is not available if you


and further north east aggregate is not available if you have a project in undermans aggregate is not available what do you do do you go 200 kilometers to get aggregators too costly so you have to find other methodologies which we are doing now we are doing soil stabilization there are a lot of players who have come into the market for soil stabilization and after that you can do the needful uh when you make roads which are concrete or as we call them rigid uh surface so their availability of cement creates a problem unfortunately and this is what I think nitin has said time and again two industries which do not cooperate one is steel and other is cement they formed cartilage now as a common person I would feel if there are cement industry you are let's say producing your production cost for cement is let's say X you take 10 percent over it you take 12 percent over it but you've got a fixed customer in the National Highway give it to them that doesn't happen we get


give it to them that doesn't happen we get at the same market price the cost goes up okay so uh and import is not an option input will also be costly how will import be cheaper I mean how can you I mean when you're manufacturing cement air how do you start importing uh cement so today uh to get these projects uh which slide delays are there you're sorting out land problems there are certain places where the environmental issues come in and by environment I mean Forest I don't know if you know it let's say you make a road and we and we do Plantation the side of the road it becomes deemed Forest if I want to cut that tree after 10 years I cannot cut it I require Forest permission for that now State Forest Forest departments they create maximum issues okay in the center we are able to sort it out but maximum issues come up at that time we are going out of our way to ensure that we are as alive as any other environmentalist to look after environmental and Forest


any other environmentalist to look after environmental and Forest issues we have created elevated sections so that the animals can pass below we are creating tunnels so that animals can go over we are doing all possible things where the security and safety of animal life is concerned right but there's also you know people get annoyed I guess it's also lack of um lack of easy access to express space now this is an international thing that Expressway is so but you know Indians or people from developing nations think that we should be able to take our bullic art also on that we should be able to enter a road the view is like that and I think people don't know the difference between also an expressway and a highway and a toll system where you know the thing is that we contributed the land and now you're charging so much so how how do you go over this get over this hurdles the problem is always the expressway why do you call it Expressway because you want people to travel faster you


Expressway because you want people to travel faster you want people to travel a speech of 120 or even higher any slow traffic will result in massive accidents so you don't want any unnecessary traffic to come onto the expressway highways is okay we can provide that now where the uh let's say the common farmer he wants to go let's say 20 kilometer he wants to travel on that Expressway then the whole meaning of Expressway goes away let's let's take for example the Delhi Merit Expressway yes everybody wants to come on to the expressway what will happen to the road will it achieve the purpose for which it has been made today between ghaziabad and meerut it takes just about half an hour if you want to come to Delhi 40 minutes to an hour that will go then we will say oh well why did you make this road earlier it used to take so much of time it is still taking so much it's necessary to educate the people about the reasons right problem is different problem is


people about the reasons right problem is different problem is people a lot of them know what is happening but everybody wants to play the ball you know okay let's see if it happens because any entry onto the expressway yeah further enhances the price of land adjoining the expressway yes so people are looking at that correct that they are not looking at the traffic they are not looking at what will be the consequences subsequently and also you mentioned accidents you know it's it's kind of shocking that we lose about a hundred thousand citizens on on roads how to make our roads safe because many of us have friends and relatives who live abroad and the first question they ask is can we take a road trip can we do this I mean many of us are doing road trips with our families but there is that fear when you see the statistics it is uh kind of Statistics are bad we had one lakh 50 000 about five years back every year more than Corona one lakh 50 000 in five


more than Corona one lakh 50 000 in five lakh accidents per year now most of the actually puts in perspective more than Corona deaths we lose people on our roadways what the issue is when you want to do things now we have been representing ourselves in the U.N also and statistics we have said that we will bring it down we have put in measures you know education enforcement engineering both of Road and the other things where the road is concerned we can do it where education is concerned it has to become everybody's in effort just one Ministry trying to do it it is not going to reach everybody so signages potholes yes it's a continuous process and then if you ask somebody will say it is a state's problem you ask the state they'll say it is not us it is the national national highway is concerned it is my ministry's problem okay and we take care of that that is where the tall goes when we charged it all actually the concept of tall when


we charged it all actually the concept of tall when it started in the world was that if you want something better you pay for it right and so to ensure the quality of road to ensure that it remains at the same state you require constant putting in the money now unlike uh let's say a projected sanctioned project is over after that that is how do you maintain it yeah which happens with most of the government facilities if you don't cater first and that is where the tall comes in handy you have the money and let me only share with you some of the experiences which people have shared with me without my asking them so we travel from trivandrum to Delhi it took us so much of time and what a pleasure it was yeah so if somebody tells you they want to take a road trip tell them do take a route right no problem sir since we are talking about roads and your ministry also deals with the construction construction of roads in the All Along The Lac you


construction of roads in the All Along The Lac you have been in the Army sir there were times when we were not building any infrastructure in the forward areas what is the status today how uh how uh well are we prepared uh vis-a-vis China and what have been the achievements in that sector so let me uh say that a great amount of effort has been put on to this particular field of having a strategic roads if you would recall till between 2010 and 2012. we used to talk of having finalized 75 different projects that was there in every Parliament question right 75 different questions projects work started on them in 2014. most of them are complete most of them are complete what was envisaged at that time that is the achievement in addition to that much more is happening trans arunachal was talked of it was uh talked off and then a lot of people said oh it is not possible what will happen we have started the project it's a huge project what is the if you can explain will


huge project what is the if you can explain will link all the values see at the moment all your connectivity in arunachal is through the valleys now how do you do intervalue movement you will come down find the suitable place from where you turn back into the next Valley this one will link all the values and not very far away from the borders so it will provide a great amount of strategic flexibility as well as developmental Initiative for inter Valley work and for people to you know find it much easier so this was not done earlier gelsa because of what reason why was this one was it the was it the nervousness because it is close to the Chinese boundary was it was it that one one I think has been that second has been uh you already have a connective from Place A to B why do you want to link the valley no the thinking was he has been talking of it for a very long time right but uh the uh government of the day for almost 10 years they


uh government of the day for almost 10 years they never appreciated this side and expenditure is immense right expenditureism but then you have to be Innovative you require a person like yeah who can innovatively work out in in a public private partnership as to how a thing can be done you know when you talk about expenditure I have to talk about the airports and the connectivity in the Northeast you know um fabulous work which is being done there and you know that's the other hat that you wear of civil aviation uh it's considered India's considered the third largest civil aviation market now I think 147 operational airports 188 million Indians traveling by air just last year that's like several countries population put together and you know that there was that I remember still when that um that slogan came up Regional Regional connections it's not going to be possible but now when you see the kind of people who are flying they're actually you're talking about middle class and lower middle class India who for


about middle class and lower middle class India who for the whom bus Journeys used to be difficult and used to you know people had not like you you see them even on social media commenting on that that I'm taking my mother for the first time ever on an aircraft and these are dreams which have come and you from a village too sir you know what it is like it's a big thing and see we must this way this uh I'll call it democratization of the air travel right and uh give it to our leader modiji to conceive a thing like this to say why aren't we connecting tier two and tier to three cities we have got many unused and uh you know disused uh air strips at various places let's start looking at them and so certain incentive package was devised so that initially when an airline starts into a tier two or two or three City you may not get that many passengers so to incentivize them they were and now as it catches on more and


they were and now as it catches on more and more demand is coming up there are places where some old Air strip exists and they come and say why can't you revive it so it's a it's a great thing that is happening you had 70 till 2014 yeah today it is 148 148 which includes uh two uh Water Aid ROMs and helipots it's it's a big goddess thing right so now I'm going to bury into the past or burrow into the past is better um was there a military coup during Dr Manmohan Singh's time uh somebody imagined a thing like that in the journalistic world egged on by some people who wanted to tarnish the image of the Armed Forces to count with a absolutely absurd idea like that nothing like that what happened that night in January January 16th 2012 uh uh about a week before that I'll go back in time and you will you will be able to research on that your issue in Maldives where there were all the chances


issue in Maldives where there were all the chances that ah the president is going to be thrown out and somebody else will take over we had that information in the army the information was shared at appropriate level and we were told no the it is it is okay nothing will happen but when you get information which is more than what is coming to other people you know what is happening you know that the person who is coming is not in our favor he might be showing that is in our favor and chances are that if this throat becomes bad like lost time we probably would have to intervene 1988. now I had studied 1980. I mean if you don't study whatever we have done then we are not worth it we had problems last minute things came people were running Helter Skelter we got little delayed thank you thank God by then of course things were better by the time we landed ultimately out there this time you didn't want to be late now if you don't want to be late


be late now if you don't want to be late you need to prepare your people so two units were asked so that we could time them and those are bad days fog no if I told them come to hinden the game is up which is the next best place Republic Day Republic Day parade is taking place they can come to Delhi if you would get the timings and when you ask people to move you should go through the entire gamut of activities that takes place go go to whatever they have to take it has to be uh you know taken from certain depos because everything is not kept with you everything was done and we were taking timings of these people of one unit moving from Hisar and the other unit moving from Agra that is all do nothing involved I mean whose don't happen by making everything public within the military also so but this kind of an exercise you were the Army Chief but for this kind of an exercise to do did you have the political uh okay for it you didn't


you have the political uh okay for it you didn't you didn't take political this thing for exercises you don't even need to inform for what if your intentions are bad you will inform your intentions are right it's perfectly fine your military commanders were on board absolutely uh a sudden order can we wait for sometimes I said no you will get a certain order in actuality okay in actuality you will get a certain order then you are you going to say at that time sir I have got a problem I went to bharatpad Depot bharatpur Depo was closed it has taken me more time so that was the time to sort out issues in the ordinance Depot ordinance Depot yeah because you get so you were moving Ordnance also at that time there are the missiles for your uh anti-tank missiles you you don't keep them in the unit okay you don't keep them the unit magazine they require uh you know environmental control uh storage so they're stored at a particular place now people have


they're stored at a particular place now people have to go and get it done now when we do everything in the Army we prepare people for actualities you don't say okay everybody is sleeping so it's taking more time you have to see that things moved in that short period and they had to be there in Delhi before Daybreak so it was a very big decision that you took I'm presuming that didn't you take anybody on board like when you do did it like the raksha mantra what for doing this kind of an exercise you didn't think that is firstly who knows who's going to give an order when for things to move we had the information the NSA knew about it had shared the information that this is what is likely to happen Maldives they said we will see if it happens now will you leave it as a professional I'm not talking as a professional will you leave it we will see at that time would you put your troops at risk to say would you play with the image


at risk to say would you play with the image of the country okay by saying that okay well I just got the order and find excuses at that time no excuses but are these exercises conducted regularly like this was there anything unnatural that happened that night nothing see the problem is if I'm sitting here somebody sitting outside can think that is unnatural why should I be here hmm it is where were you sir I was in Delhi I was in Delhi and uh there was nothing that was uh happening which which should have Disturbed my sleep when the report came out it came out in February this happened in January January 16th report comes out in the paper written about in one paper in one paper by three uh journalists who began the report saying that the government was trying to cover up what happened and they were flustered was there any fluster between January and February problem is when somebody is tasked to make a story all such things will happen the only thing of this person


such things will happen the only thing of this person was heading that thing at that time he had two clauses first grows was that he wanted to walk walk the talk show and uh his uh uh subordinates had come to me and I said I may be there I may not be there on a particular Wednesday I was not there now they assumed that I'll be there oh he's a big journalistic personality uh people should bow down to him you know that kind of attitude was there he landed for that program I was not there so I got a frantic call sir you are not there I said I never told you that I'll be there why did you assume that I'll be there so there was a lot of uh you know anger in this walking and talking was supposed to be around South block yeah but it's a a journalist will not accuse a sitting Army chief of staging a potential coup because you canceled an interview interviews canceled many many more things okay okay let me give


canceled many many more things okay okay let me give you a connection there was uh the principal secretary to the PM at that time this journalist started his career from Punjab and if you follow the career of this journalist he has been able to find places everywhere and they had to find something to stick on a chief who was telling the government let the system that prevails in the country be followed I never wanted extra time I just said the whole country follows only one law and that is your age is determined by your matriculation certificate I said that has been deposited now to find all other things when you can't negate it and you have to put something against a person what better way so us time you had accepted that age certification it was only once because the then Chief had promised he said because we want to settle the things Deepak and Sir like I uh like we all were very closely we have covered that issue ah do you think sir now after 10 years or 10 12 years


think sir now after 10 years or 10 12 years since that happened do you think this was not the major issue the age extension or acceptance of acceptance of your date of birth the issues were something else and this was a problem so there's no truth to it as Ajit Singh zero not a grain of Truth to continue with what you had said you know you blame the newspaper you blame the editor uh there was this uh at that time the RnB minister later Manish tiwari was the NB minister in 2016 he said that the report was right he gave a clean check and within hours of him giving a clean trip to the story uh Abhishek Manu Singh we who was the spokesperson of the congress party and I'm quoting he said my colleague was neither a member of the cabinet committee on security nor any relevant decision-making body in fact it was also clarified that some troop movements are necessary inbuilt inevitable part of defense mechanism basically what you were


part of defense mechanism basically what you were saying but to read all those elements uh all the other elements that is what Manish tiwari was saying all the other elements is inappropriate unnecessary and completely wrong this is what Abhishek Manu Singh we said so basically saying that what um Manish tavari's insinuation that there was that the truth was there in that cool story is wrong now you tell me that here is a political party which was in power which was divided in its view as to what happened that night because there is a section in party always which will go by what the actual facts are there are others who will hear as to what is what is happening and add their stories to it that's it and uh please I think one should have been prepared for such insinuations because one was told don't go to the court not once a couple of times put your finger on any state and we'll send you there as after retirement um this was before the January yeah before


after retirement um this was before the January yeah before I mean 15th of January or around that time is when one went to the Supreme Court because nobody else was giving a decision after all what was one saying look here here is the law of the country here is the certificate It is Well recorded when it was deposited and my my plea to the Supreme Court started with the first line was I don't want extra time but it was you know but the accusation was that you didn't want General suhag to be in the line of succession was too far below the acquisition should admit that there was somebody who was who was what should we place this Chief and that is why all this was worked out that is the accusation that is the problem General Vikram Singh that was the problem yeah but the entire thing right it was General Vikram saying and but see sir we we are in the civilian set up we don't even know which is the unsavory bit is what


even know which is the unsavory bit is what happens in Pakistan it is uh you have cases but they are not uh pushed as as this particular thing was supposed to you don't tell me all records there are is one particular age now you go and look around find fault find fault you find the application form without reading what is given down below that if there is a difference or a separate this thing between the age entered into the application form and the certificate that is deposited later the decision will be taken by the Authority is concerned before you go to National Defense Academy so if there was a change in discrepancy so one one wouldn't have gone and once you have gone there and you have gone with a particular documented proof of your age where was the doubt left after that when you uh you if you look at the record of you know immediately after commissioning when you come to the unit see from there everything was there it was well researched by people who were in the