you can actually make a difference to at least 15 lives with just what you have with you so even now or even even during your old age because there are some organs that can you know last with whatever uh today science is is has improved by Leaps and Bounds so I think it's very necessary for all of us to become organ donors and there's a stigma around organ donation a lot of faiths and religions believe are a the body will get defaced and the eyes will pop out and there'll be sockets like that and you know we can't deface the body I think those are all stigmas that need to be spoken against and I think there's no better Karma or no better blessing than you making a difference to people's lives who really need it at the time and uh I think that is one thing that needs to be really spoken about um imagine if we all became organ donors what a what a change they would be in life um and then the girl child yes I've


in life um and then the girl child yes I've always worked for women empowerment I've made my films around domestic violence women empowerment girl children whether it was Matra it was Daman or it was uh you know Jago or it was any of these films um that is also something that I've been working forever in the world also when you came back after the break that you had in your career uh you started doing these many breaks in your career yeah let's talk about that let's talk about that why did you leave when you were at the peak of your career yeah and then all the others raised ahead which is the story of my life really why um that happened why should yeah in my daughter's school race also I'm telling a story of my life I was coming first and before that I didn't hear the announcement I have to run up to the guy with the flag so I stopped whether where the white line stopped I stopped on Sunday so everyone racing I had as my husband saying


so everyone racing I had as my husband saying why did you stop you were first I said I don't know so these things I can never forgive myself sometimes but not ambitious what was it that that I was never ambitious he films just happened to me there was no so-called nepotism or anything that happened neither did my dad ever realize it was just like really you want to sign my daughter so it was it just happened like that right everybody was saying you're pretty or yeah true so that's what I said it it kind of and neither would I ever wanted my dad to launch me or produce films for me or you know keep me going constantly because I always believe that if I have it in me if I have the talent I'll stand on my own two feet and make it for myself and not really uh you know I always wanted to be self-made so uh not that films were something that I was thinking at all kind of just happened to me I


at all kind of just happened to me I kept getting offers I said no 267 offers before I eventually said yes to Patricia pool that too because Salman was there my college friends wanted to meet him so I signed the phone okay they were like please all the things I've not heard anything this bizarre seriously I went to college I went to college 19000 fijc and I told my friends guess what now I got offered a film opposite Salman Khan and he was the biggest thing after many pool was the second film so they were like don't say no to this please so let's give it a shot and the next day I said yes two days later I was facing the camera so I had no training I did not train to become a star so it was not at all that's the so-called nepotism that is spoken about which I think is too over hyped uh I had not gone dancing classes acting classes diction classes classes but uh and I just stood in front of the camera and


and I just stood in front of the camera and that that was it I just started and then yeah that's it the rest is acting came naturally what was expected out of you in that film just to say hello Daddy and look pretty and you're the kader Khan kind dad and how many films was he your dad yeah a lot of films I miss him really he's so talented and so in so many films it was like okay it was decided yeah all those dialogues were also the same like yeah you wouldn't you wouldn't marry a person who he never approved of you know that's exactly what I told people they said so how tough was it in the 90s to do 30 Films at one time I said hi Daddy Daddy play the same rich brat in every film falling in love with the poor guy that was costume like okay maybe you had Govinda and uh chitty in fact I started working the second phase of my career when I came back initially all the films that


career when I came back initially all the films that Chichi and me signed never took off uh so in the first phase mostly I did about six films with sunny I did seven films with Sanju I did films with Sunil I did films with Akshay I did six films with Akshay I did six films with Ajay uh I did uh three films with Salman uh I did I was signed Shahrukh and we had signed four films but unfortunately Jadoo the director died and what music that film had we still regret when Shahrukh and we meet then zamana Diwana we did English Babu Desi babe I had signed which then I ultimately left uh Dar was had come to me first um really yeah so like you were talking about that vulgarity and whether you didn't do so no though it was not vulgar but there was Sometimes some scenes that I was not comfortable with a couple of scenes swimming costume I'll not wear a swimming costume I think Lola got launched was


swimming costume I think Lola got launched was actually offered to me first but even that there was this one scene where the hero pulls down the zipper or something and a strap is showing me I was uncomfortable with that so I used to be uncomfortable with a lot of things I I was very uncomfortable with proximity with people whom I could not I would not every very like this I was little uppity at that time I think and not snooty I was never snooty I was always like how I am right now only so that's why they treated me like a boy but I was not like um how do I say like for example um dance steps if I'd be uncomfortable or something I'd say listen I'm not comfortable with this step I would not do the step I didn't want to wear swimming costumes I didn't do kissing scenes so I had my funders I was the only actress who had a couple of rape scenes with not one one tear in her dress


rape scenes with not one one tear in her dress on my dress would be fully intact I'll say no I will not do okay but that's what now I think it's something here that you can't stop if you're talented and I tell people if you're talented you're hard working you have faith in yourself you believe in yourself nothing can stop you okay so if you see the girls today uh you know who are acting with it SRI Devi's daughter or Seth's daughter or whatever they have this camera G they're they're doing instas together yeah they party together and all what was it like in the 90s we also had a lot of camaraderie see juhi uh Madhuri and maduriya Senior senior to me but Kajol myself Shilpa Neelam uh you name them uh juhi uh madhu Madhuri till before she died I was I mean pretty close to her as well so we've all been friends then and we've all we're friends now Manisha urmila whenever we all meet


friends now Manisha urmila whenever we all meet we meet so warmly and at times you know where we party together we used to even in those days we used to I remember holy parties I remember I used to go pick up urmila and then we used to go for the holy parties together Rani so we all still in touch with each other yeah there are few some of them were jealous who only keep to themselves we are fine with that but the rest of us are all still very close uh and and there's that certain bond that we all still have we're always on each other's insta always complimenting each other always pressing likes by each other always doing things for each other and the jokes also must have been the same right you you knew the jokes about all the yeah now we can sit back and laugh at a lot of things actually there's a lot of things what about the pay scale discrepancies I believe they were tremendous in the 90s yes of course


were tremendous in the 90s yes of course they were that's why I think heroines used to do much many more films at a one go where a hero would be doing five films a year but we'd be doing 30 Films a year so that was the kind of discrepancy in Pay yeah yeah really 30 is to five it would be almost probably yes yeah but nobody aired that nobody voiced that thing well that was the norm I think that was the norm probably everywhere so it's not only the industry I think that was the norm everywhere sure yeah exactly but in in films one would think that the creativity level would be the same that you know you would be doing or did the actors have the like the male members male actors had to do more in a film see at that time yes most definitely the male actors had much more burden to carry on the film because if a film slopped or something it was known as their flop you know it was known as them as uh the heroine


know it was known as them as uh the heroine would still go ahead and sign for python so I think that was not uh you know so much so but today the kind of roles and the films that have are being made the way uh we carry or whether it's a web series or it's a film we carry it also on our shoulders so it's equal amount so nonetheless yes the pay scale has also upped in our characters have also upped which I love and your personal life has always been something uh that's always in the news like even today if I was to Google raveena Tandon Akshay Kumar's name comes up with it and that you broke up with him 25 30 years ago yeah but it still comes up no no it comes up and it comes up that there's like you know war between everyone whom he is involved with hello once I had moved out of his life I was already dating someone else and he was he had moved on dating someone else so it's January 2023 when we


dating someone else so it's January 2023 when we are taping this yeah and uh the fourth or the fifth Story if you type raveena Tandon comes up is raveena tandan's engagement with Akshay Kumar which year was that ah forgotten about it forgot so it's still talked about there are some I think there are some pairings which uh people never forget I think we were very uh we were a hit pair during Mora and even now when we bump into socially we all meet we all chat and I mean everyone moves on please no girls are changing their boyfriends every week in colleges since then to now but one engagement that has broken is still stuck to my head I don't know why yeah but uh yes everyone moves on people have divorces people move on yeah so what's the big deal so even after that after he broke up with you it was always that oh whoever he finds he's finding people who look like raveena do you remember that those stories you don't oh you


do you remember that those stories you don't oh you just blocked it out of here I had I would not read anything that was written about that because then why unnecessarily Apna blood pressure do you do that often like stay away yeah I block it out gossip magazines of those days now they're completely blocked from my house really yeah yeah because 90s gossip magazines were the worst and some of those women I see roaming around today carrying the women's lib badge over their heads and their hearts who were the worst enemies of women would body shame women would shame women would do everything possible uh to bring another woman down and today they those they roam around being the biggest you know feminists I was like when did that happen if I start telling stories about them to you where nobody would body shame you you always looked perfect no no no please I was called a lot of things and thunder thighs and miss this and miss that I don't believe that yeah but I know started at


don't believe that yeah but I know started at 16 and a half I had all full baby fat which still hasn't gone so I don't care now I'm I'm being like that I am like that too bad no you're exaggerating it was like I think SRI Devi was called that a lot um I don't know why I remember some of these titles no no not only for me a lot of other heroines also and besides that I think instead of supporting women what they did was to they would all these women editors first of all would fall in love with the heroes and then what the hero said was the last word if he wanted to you know pan a woman the woman would be panned and shamed and uh literally her career ruined in the magazines uh with nasty articles being put out about her there was so many untrue articles that were put out just because some Heroes went and said and it would be the the last word and even if there would be an apology there would be one


if there would be an apology there would be one last line and some other issue of the magazine that story We carried ultimately proved not to be true but who will read that at that time the screaming headlines is what made news right yeah so that that social media kind of changed all that right there is the viciousness also but at least you can put out your point yes yes that is that is what is very very necessary is that today you can put out the truth instantly that see this is the proof and this is where I was and this is what it is yeah but at that time what the newspapers wrote or what the media wrote was the last word you had you didn't have a voice it was like I remember uh anybody uh put on a little weight any actress put on is she pregnant is she pregnant is she pregnant yeah yeah yeah that whole thing at least now I mean within a day a denial can go out that okay it was just I had samosas yeah


that okay it was just I had samosas yeah no no not Samosa I mean whatever I mean I'm being facetious but it used to be really really dirty the 90s journalism and that breed of those journalists were really dirty really dirty that why you vicious moved out once you got married like yeah yeah that's why I was like okay I'm waiting because this viciousness I can't deal with because I am not like that as a person what I am I am on the face I think initially in fact I remember Stardust even writing an article about uh I I don't believe in plucking flowers a I prefer flowers and animals in the forest and in the nature where they should be so I always I started this trend of sending people cakes right in the 90s and I remember Stardust writing an article see how a diabetically artificially fake sweet she is nowadays she sends cakes to everyone instead of flowers for a birthday how does that make that an article I would say I'd rather send a you


an article I would say I'd rather send a you know bottle of wine or cake and that's what I started I used to send everyone cakes so that was supposed to be fake you were done with films at that stage uh I like I told you I started on a whim never thought that this would be I I've never grew up with the fact maybe actress this is my be-all end-all and I breathe eat drink you know sleep films no that was not the thing for me I always wanted to lead a normal life I wanted to have kids I wanted to have a family and I wanted to have a real marriage what is a real marriage yeah not just holding hands for the paps that for me is not a real marriage a real marriage is true companionship and someone who so that was happening a lot in the film industry that happens a lot everywhere it's not only the film industry where you take the business industry you take everywhere it's very difficult to find the right partner


everywhere it's very difficult to find the right partner I feel and and it kind of happens everywhere and I've seen a beautiful marriage between my parents so I always believed grew up believing in the institution of marriage because why couldn't you have had a career and marriage at this time but I do have a career at the same time at that time when you got out okay because that was the condition that was put to me okay yeah and then later I chose my career platter half of the thing I said not happening I think now this time I choose my career and I kind of restarted my career all over again and at that time I had to start from point zero you wanted to be invited that time then I started doing films which otherwise I left off when I was doing films like Mora dilwale imtehan where I was the main leader with the film's only revolved around me and then I started with films like with sunny and all doing action films they were basically action


and all doing action films they were basically action films and I had five scenes and five songs to do or something but at that time for me that was better than nothing now you mentioned you have to tell me about the story that did you really think it would become a cult movie when you were shooting where we thought it would do really well because we were in splits throughout but you know unfortunately at that time that like I told you that was the era where a lot of these cheap comedies were being played out you know a lot of these films are doing well with the masses and then suddenly came andars clean family film with clean comedy straight faced comedy kind of a thing you know that pan-faced comedy being put out and I I think the audiences probably did not understand it they had gotten too used to that double meaning cheap buffoonery you know and so that's why I think uh took the hit but otherwise I think it was um we didn't realize what will become today because


um we didn't realize what will become today because the minute the um you know the the people came back to it exactly until till date it's it's it's a cult film yeah like when you're feeling low down and out yeah and you just want to just chill yeah did you have fun doing that Karishma raveena raveena yeah it was a it was a lot of fun we used to be you'll see me in some scenes I'm actually laughing I'm actually laughing because you can't stop the laughter and then one doesn't want to spoil the whole take okay so actually grinning and saying your dialogues tell me if you were to pick uh among your women friends in the film industry you mentioned so many of them is Karishma one of them like well they meet we we do meet socially but I think she has her set Circle so okay and among the male friends male actors that you've acted with who did you feel most comfortable with like acting I think it has to be Sanju


with like acting I think it has to be Sanju yeah he's a very private person I've heard no no no where did you hear that uh choir no matter I've done so many films with Sanju I think uh yeah I probably know Sanju quite a bit is the panju panju thing no it's just that I guess it's just a level of comfort with him somehow okay it's Sanju um all of them are my friends um one of the guys you are right that's right yeah I was always like one of the boys Sunil Sanju jagu we all meet vinver we all meet now we meet so warmly Salman so it's yeah it's uh because uh the interviews that we have seen of uh uh Sunny deol is like he hardly speaks uh he's just like very a man of few words yeah there are many actors like that who in interviews they're very quiet yeah but on screen they are like completely different yeah you know yeah I guess they are reserved yeah they're introverts introverts


I guess they are reserved yeah they're introverts introverts right I'm not an introvert it's like what's yours is here is what's here is here and you know like my husband says why please don't please don't because it that's you yeah yeah I I am I've always been an open book and I do believe that um a uh if you have nothing to hide you don't end up lying and if you don't end applying you have nothing to hide period so let's come into the 2000s you know when like I said after your several breaks and coming up going back coming back and things like that but the nice thing is that directors were always ready to cast you as soon as you wanted to come back um and let's go on to ux and then you know then your best actress award for uh Daman talk to me about these films did you feel like more fulfilled doing these uh absolutely I think I had started making the shift with a film called shul it took me a lot to


a film called shul it took me a lot to actually convince ramu to cast me in shul because he said I'll never forget that line of his he said but raveena every time I close my eyes and they say raveena for manjari Barbie and all I can see you do is yeah exactly I was like yeah but whatever and that actually happened because we were shooting the still uh for the uh you know the posters and the still shoot for sure and uh but sinu the director was very convinced that uh I suit the role and or I will do justice to the role so he and and me were trying our best to convince ramu and uh I was shooting with Rakesh rishta and there was the makeup room and then there's like how there was a makeup room there and there was the setup over here and I finished getting ready and I walked out coming to do my Stills to do my thing and uh ramu crossed me Ramos go in the washroom so I


crossed me Ramos go in the washroom so I looked at ramu I said hi ramu you're finally here so he looked at me and did and he walked past me I was like shoot he's really upset that I'm doing this film you know I don't think he really wants me to and I went and stood from the camera and I started emoting and I was doing my thing and suddenly we after five minutes we hear this oh my God raveena that was you I said yeah ramu I said hello to you what were you wearing I was wearing that same that one SRI Barbie you know that cotton saree and no makeup it's just my hair tied behind just kajal in my eyes that was my entire look for and he just couldn't he didn't recognize me he just did this like she was like maybe the male or something clean up mate saying hello Hi ramu how are you so I was like what the hell come up with me yeah and then and then


hell come up with me yeah and then and then there was no looking back and then I did gulami Mustafa then I did ask then I did um yeah and then like I said there was no how did kalpana Lakshmi think of you with why I have no clue I think she was very convinced uh during I don't know if Daman and shul were nearly together I couldn't remember okay I don't remember the timeline but uh but yeah she also wanted like like for example everyone thought dimple was really glamorous right till kalpana gave us and then and likewise she said uh you know unfortunately actually she said a very very nice thing which I also believed in you know actually if you go to see even in the earlier era for me the most natural and beautiful actresses and they were performance wise they were equal at par but unfortunately wahidaji was always known more as an actor actor and Madhubala wasn't because people would only watch her beautiful face first because they only spoke


only watch her beautiful face first because they only spoke more about her beauty but not if you see madhubalaji's performances any of these films with the uh yeah uh that's um even that even that song I mean just see her performance yeah in that and she goes she's so natural there was no overacting or anything she was the one of the most natural performers that we had but unfortunately for her it was her beauty took over the actor that she was with the media with the people with the public her smiled is that they only spoke about that more but like for example uh when if one was to look at you because you're so so you know vocal and you you look happy in all your songs one won't think of you as a battered woman you know who has faced abuse so that's why uh Daman was something which was completely different like yeah that you nobody would think of raveena Tandon as a victim film also I think got a lot of uh a claim because we


think got a lot of uh a claim because we spoke about marital violence and marital rape at the time or probably even today where it's not being given the kind of recognition that it should be given you know we spoke about it then so it was it was uh but you I'll just quote one in which is raveena Tandon lends credibility to the role of a battered wife and walks away with the honors the pathos she conveys through her Expressions make you realize that she's a performer of substance now again uh till these this lot of films came nobody saw about you that you could convey pathos pathos would only be okay the guys dumped me and that was the only pathos that one saw in your earlier films so was it a conscious decision in in the later half of your career to do this it was that is why I had to convince ramu to get me to do shul and then came Daman then came like I said then the rest of the film


came like I said then the rest of the film yeah yeah so those also you you did you like get more fulfillment doing these films yeah I did because then because of my second coming I could talk about it is that I I wanted to place myself in such a way I mean I remember actually Karan still doesn't forgive me for not doing but he didn't understand at that time because Kajol was my contemporary right we started together we were both doing lead roles so I couldn't have done where I was at a lower uh probably smaller role than Granny's role rani's role which was a smaller role and Rani benefited from it because she was a newcomer and suddenly she came across as oh my God this is awesome you know so that was the difference that that would have happened at that time then that's what I told Karan so it's just that I wanted to place myself more as an actor actor rather than again doing something with just five scenes and you know five super


something with just five scenes and you know five super hit songs and so even now there are times that people don't look Beyond me than my hit songs actually it's a hindrance where every time when I go they only talk about my songs what about all the performances of the awards that I won otherwise hello what about my performances where does that go you know you you've done it but I can't help it even I would like my intro to you is that only exactly the only thing I'm called is but yeah God you don't even know I've done that and you guessed it right I can't I can't help it because that is how it is that's what I'm telling you because ultimately the masses also remember you for your songs they remember you for your uh you know hit songs how many he's done films yeah but you'll still say Mr India no yeah I love him and jackass can't help it so many films in all this yeah there's so many films with him also can you imagine yeah


so many films with him also can you imagine yeah that you know one would think of speaking about Anil Kapoor and not say RAM lakhan and not say uh Mr India you can't help it those are iconic so that's what happens roles that true that so let's talk about your like we when we are winding up let's talk about your Otto phone movies now I mean you've like done phenomenal work uh yeah and you know in the 90s women probably May men also they won't think of even television television it is coming down I think Mr Bachchan proved all that wrong by coming on to KBC and said because you graduated from television to film yeah you didn't do it backwards true it was considered backwards I think one has to evolve with the times and and kind of work in and around it and with it uh the lot of uh I was being offered a lot of Ott shows and uh I kind of chose aranyak and there was a time where I actually said


aranyak and there was a time where I actually said no to one of the shows which went on to become such a big hit and in fact in every nomination was at par with me every 15 minutes you're saying this have you realized that I left that and that became yeah I left so many things and that became such a big hit and aranyakane uh you know with the uh release I said yeah did I gamble on the wrong horse what did I do but then I intentionally chose aranyak over on other ones because the others were again I was playing myself you know people have seen me that Sharky ladki thing is there I wanted to do something some completely different from what people have seen you know me do I didn't I hate talking about myself in third person but I'll have to say this here of the typical raveena Tandon what you expect of you know again playing High Society or you know Posh clothes and being shared key ladki and that's when I I


being shared key ladki and that's when I I actually chose aranyak over all the others that I was offered because that's what what gave me the chance to even challenge myself as to what what more and what else can I do as an actor and what about uh television you've done sporadically you've done uh yeah yeah I have I had done one show television show that time on Sahara TV called uh Sai Bibi gulam sorry huh yeah but it's more I think ODT is is something that you're more comfortable with then I've been doing reality TV no judging that you've been doing I've done is that fun that's a lot of fun I tell people you get to wear the best clothes you wear the best jewelry you get to look pretty and then you get to sit and someone else out that normally the media does that to us clothes is a lot right you're in Star and everything that you put on Instagram on Twitter everybody let's say oh my God cannot tell


Twitter everybody let's say oh my God cannot tell she still can give the younger actresses for run for their money what fun how do you pick your clothes it's it's it do you love you have a stylist but I ultimately I choose what I want to wear like I don't just blindly follow what the stylist give me because sometimes you have to know what is suits your body type as well so that's important looking good feeling good that's important right absolutely I feel everyone should uh get that 45 minutes out in a day for themselves and see how you feel and you feel more confident you feel much better about yourself you don't take care of yourself uh who's in who's a successful woman uh I always ask them to speak about mental health because I think it's become a big challenge these days and I feel that women who are leaders in their profession I want to know about that too how important is it for you uh for your mental well-being to have time for yourself and what


mental well-being to have time for yourself and what do you do for your well-being I think it's very important a uh yes definitely having your family rally around you especially at difficult times your friends rally around you listen to them confide in them now is the era of shrinks and you know psychologists and psychiatrists Etc but I mean I I believe in India it's always your family and your friends that that compile together and rally against you and become your support and your backbone so that's something that's very important I think it's very important for families to look out for telltale signs uh to see and to to speculate and be there at the time when when one needs them the maximum for me it's always been my family my parents have been my backbone always uh the many times where I do believe I could have fallen but I did pick myself up and walk again and and I believed and I actually followed that logic in my life so there are many times that I could


my life so there are many times that I could have been scattered but I collected myself and walked again and that is what life is all about and that's what you have to be so it's very important for you to also bring up your children teaching them that life will throw you challenges but it's up to you to have the strength to overcome so if your children were to say that they need help um you wouldn't bat an eyelid and get them no it's not yeah it's very necessary to get there's no shame in that and I think it is it it is it'll be very good that it's I think it's fantastic that my children are reaching out to tell me that that they need help you know so I feel people do should reach out what you have to say to this um thing about nepotism you said it's been exaggerated and things like that but a number of people are looking whether your daughters are going to get into films and would would you encourage them your


get into films and would would you encourage them your they will be the third generation if they decide my older daughters already married settled and doing very well for themselves uh my younger biological Russia she's been getting a lot of film offers we've been contemplating but right now she's focusing on her 12th boards and your son my son wants to become a lawyer he's interested in legal and I said legal family now so I keep saying every family should have one doctor and one lawyer for sure but uh I think he is so I mean they are not the ones who should really be then promoting nepotism but hamari industry always industry has always encouraged Talent it is not a pedigree where you come from it is how talented and hard-working you are that gives you longevity right it has never been from Karthik to Shahrukh to Deepika to anyone you Priyanka all the stalwarts today who are there who are the pillars of our industry are not from film families


pillars of our industry are not from film families they're from ranveer saying you take anyone's name today so it's not that oh it's only these people are given opportunity and Outsiders are not given an opportunity I beg to differ on that anything said against my industry I always stand up and speak aloud uh uh soda bottle opener and Sons so so and so carpetuala Sons and Daughters always so tomorrow if my daughter actually stands up and says mama I want to join the industry scientists if she's talented the audience if she's not talented recently uh or he or she or anyone so it's it's not that it's the audience is the king audience is the decider no one else can decide anyone's fate one or two breaks you can get as a nepo kid but after that if if they don't stand on your own feet yeah good audience true so it's the audience that makes or breaks you no one else can these nepotism accusations


you no one else can these nepotism accusations and all I think come from I don't know why they come from or what what it is about professions foreign whoever it is I'm saying whoever and like again I'm saying audience is King audience is the decider if you're not talented you're not hard working you're not sincere to your craft nothing can keep you here then you know about it because you've been around uh you know in several stages of your career for quite some exactly I was offered a film instantly and the next day I said yes I didn't have even a photograph of mine to show anyone else and that too not that I was seen at a film party the producer Vivek vaswani and the director saw me in open house when I'd gone with my college friends to eat pizza then they came to know my father's daughter to concert my father called the people said on my insta there are so many of these do social media people say so it doesn't


of these do social media people say so it doesn't happen that way you know yeah like even today like I told you Russia has been getting a lot of offers she's only been studying we don't even have one photographer first to put out anyway except you know she's getting a lot of film offers we are contemplating but we'll see when it's her time it'll happen it'll happen if it doesn't have to happen it won't happen she'll choose a different career so um you know recently um Mr Bachchan and uh Shahrukh Khan were in uh Calcutta and uh they spoke about this whole band culture cancel culture uh that has come in uh we saw this happening with Amir Khan's film also and then over pathan also it's happening and there are many actors who said this uh that as soon as they say something which may be politically wrong or may not be according to what the trend is there's a cancel culture that comes in and it's then every field it's


that comes in and it's then every field it's not just in films but what do you have to say about the answer is sad because I think like I said everyone is free to voice their opinion uh and yes this this boy called Bollywood thing is a very very sad thing that has happened unfortunately because of a few bad apples there are a few bad apples everywhere so because of a few bad apples an entire industry cannot be put to blame there are people who are employed who are day workers who get affected that's their Rosy Roti they take back home to their families so if you cancel culture you are actually uh you know literally what about the absolute lower rank who depends completely on our industry for livelihood so I think uh it is a sad Trend but I'm sure that there will be a correction to happen soon I'm positive and if somebody has a political line which is not with the government or which is not with the state government or central government whichever governments you do


state government or central government whichever governments you do you know I do use take a stand you know I take a stand yeah does it does I believe in something so do people turn around and tell you in the industries they do do no not in the industry but I do know I have actually faced this huh I have faced this I have faced this from a very big uh Ott organization where I could I didn't realize what that woman had against me because as soon as she walked into the room and she saw me she had these bad vibrations she gave me and she just kind of turned around and sat like this and said yeah yeah yeah we'll hear your story in a bit uh yeah no this is not what we're looking for she actually gave me that whole attitude until date I haven't worked for that Ott platformer till she's there and you didn't know why it was you know I was in shock we were like what happened what is this person all about she


what happened what is this person all about she was on the same flight with me and she walked in on the flight and I'm sitting in the front seat and I was going to look at her and say why why don't you come and sit uh with me here because I think she was way behind she walked in she knew I was sitting there she turned her face like this and walked off I faced it because of my political preferences or my political views that I've faced this treatment from this one woman yeah and she's a complete leftist I think which I got to know much later and then when it came out in the papers that she's known to be a leftist and she's known to be like this then I realized why she hasn't cast me till date or why she was behaving with me the way she behaved and I wasn't sure other way around yeah that it's like you know that yeah anybody who then I put two into two I said because I don't know


put two into two I said because I don't know her from Adams so what was this whole bad vibrations that she was sending out to me and I'm a very perceptive person I know when there's something wrong but you were like I don't care I'm gonna have my view I'm going to express it of course and I still will I've seen you know the way top-notch actors who don't take lines because they're scared and those also who went and took selfies with um uh Mr Modi it was like oh look they're trying to do this anything you speak good about the country because it is under a particular government and you're actually talking good about your country they'll they'll they'll say oh because actually according to them everything is wrong with the country because the the opposition party is really and your Awards all came much before Mr Modi came to power yeah the several awards that you got now even this year I've been getting all the words I'm saying today if you speak anything good about


I'm saying today if you speak anything good about the country okay whether whichever countries in whichever parties in power the opposite party will nail you because according to them they want you to say that everything is wrong with the country because this country this this party is ruling you understood the the psychology yeah that's the psychology so you can't even say anything good about your own country but you do of course I do I love my country I'm proud to be born Indian yeah I wouldn't have had it any other way I see a lot of other countries and I'm like oh my God I mean people talk about you know women getting yes we do have incidents but statistically unfortunately people don't know that USA has the highest statistically count of violence against women violence and rape against women that live in India ever will have with the population that we have imagine population they're still higher than us so but unfortunately over here everything will be so blown out that it will be an issue thank you very


out that it will be an issue thank you very much for coming because it was a pleasure listening to you talking to you all the best for your release has been trouble no not at all please go through everything thank you so much all right thank you for watching or listening in to this edition of a i podcast with Smitha prakash do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen this or heard this namaste foreign [Music]


had become so powerful he had become like a Frankenstein some of the things that he did there you would be ashamed to hear even shabik Singh had told bindran Valley we're going to have a tough fight because I can see General Bulbul Brar outside I know he's in charge of this operation and he's a tough guy he's a jutsik just like you and just like me we are all just six we fight when I saw those defenses and I saw how our troops were facing casualties when they went in it was like a boxer going into the boxing ring with one hand tied behind his back and allowed to fight with only one hand you don't know where the enemy is you don't know who the enemy is where the weapons are so you you don't have a free hand those who are empty and tears for the same botched up operation I will say let me see anyone else who would have done something better and come out successful I was born to be a


and come out successful I was born to be a soldier and carried on my life somehow Victors and some are vanquished foreign welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today my conversation is with Lieutenant General kuldeep Singh Brar a veteran of the 1971 india-pakistan War and the liberation of Bangladesh he was also the commanding officer of Operation Blue Star and remains on The Hit List of khalistani terrorists he survived an attempt on his life 10 years ago in London 89 year old Lieutenant General Barr in conversation with me jensa thank you very much for coming on the podcast we have so much to discuss with you want to talk about Operation Blue Star and want to talk about The Liberation War so let's begin with the Operation Blue Star you know many of our listeners and viewers probably are from you know the post 1980s generation they they maybe they don't know about what Punjab was in the 1980s so if you could give me a little bit of background


if you could give me a little bit of background information about what the situation was before the Army was asked to intervene you're very correct Generations after 80s don't know anything about it in the 80s or let's say in 82 83 84. things were very bad over there there was no Law and Order at all the police had become a defunct Force there was this saint who had risen from a village but he has such a charismatic personality that everyone accepted him almost like 11th Guru chap called Janelle Singh bindranwale he lived in a village called Roday but he went around giving his sermons and at that stage slowly and steadily the state of Punjab started crippling and bindran Wale was an all-powerful man there was murders there was smuggling taking place Banks being looted there was no law order at all if someone had a problem his electricity has been cut off he just had to go to bendan Valley touch his feet and say my electricity has


Valley touch his feet and say my electricity has been cut off I'm a poor Chap and Ben and Wale would call one of his assistants and give orders please tell the Deputy Commissioner by four o'clock this evening the electricity better be restored that was the situation so there was a cult built up around bhindravale and the state Administration and the state police forces were stoked totally dysfunctional right a dig of police as you know was killed and just thrown outside the golden temple yeah a lot of the police were afraid to even take any action against anyone because bindran Valley had become so powerful he had become like a Frankenstein his orders were the last orders so things were very very bad there in fact in the beginning of 1984 the feeling was very strong that they're going to declare khalistan all his tapes his speeches were all that we we are not with India this is the Hindu Raj Gandhi Raj Indra Gandhi Raj we are Sikhs


Raj Indra Gandhi Raj we are Sikhs we have more in common with the pakistanis their blood and our blood does similar so out here we are treated as second class citizens we must have our own state and therefore the feeling started building up about kalistan the movement started building up and the youth at that time there was a lot of unemployment in Punjab the youth were without jobs they had motorcycles and scooters and they roamed around with little uh pistols and revolvers and there were many gangsters so in other words Law and Order had totally broken down the feeling of kalistan was slowly building up bindran Valley was fully in control of the state and his last few tips which were circulated in The Villages said that I am here to create this new state I don't expect the Army to ever move into the golden temple if they do they'll get a bloody nose but what I want you all to do is that if the golden temple is ever attacked I want


if the golden temple is ever attacked I want you to come here in your thousands and millions and surround the forces who dare to step inside the Golden Temple these messages and recordings were being circulated All Over The Villages and the people had been motivated that if anything happens you come straight to the golden temple and therefore this was behind our mind throughout that we have to finish this operation first because the moment the news goes through the hinterland to The Villages that are darbarsav has been attacked they will all start converging towards amritsa they'll come with guns rifles Spears swords anything that they can have and what a terrible situation it would have been that the Army is inside the golden temple carrying out an operation and here we have thousands and thousands of Sikh supporters of the movement who have surrounded the army now who do we fight the people inside or the people outside it was a so this was at the background of everyone's mind that they are


was at the background of everyone's mind that they are going to declare khalistan any time at the same time thousands of police of six will converge to the golden temple so this operation must be finished as fast as possible speed was a criteria so when did you uh when were you sent to Amritsar what was the timeline given to you and what were your orders then actually on on the uh first of June I was I was to go on two months annual leave 1984 first of June 1984 first of June my leave had been sanctioned I was commanding a diversion in Merit and in the evening of the 31st of May we were all in the mess having a drink and everyone was bidding us goodbye and have a good leave sir have a nice holiday we were going to Manila in the Philippines and while we were at this dinner a phone call came from Chandigarh to say that General broad is required in the operations room in Chandigarh tomorrow by 12 o'clock your major general at


tomorrow by 12 o'clock your major general at that time I was a major general so I looked at my wife I said we better start moving now get to Delhi and then we'll go on to Chandigarh but I'll go alone you keep the tickets All The Travelers checks I'll be back by the evening there must be some conference and we take our flight so I flew into Chandigarh on the first of June 1984. they were cars waiting for me at the airport I was rushed to chandi mandar to the operations room over there I found maps on the wall people all tensed up it's a war room it was a war room I was wondering what's happening but at the same time often even for right control and eight to seven per this sort of War rooms are set up were you the senior most in that room in that room yeah no no uh General sundarji was sitting there he was the Army Commander jio CNC Western command and his chief of staff was General Dayal


Western command and his chief of staff was General Dayal Ranjit Singh Dayal lieutenant in general both were there and then his mggs Major General general staff was Major General Mehta he was also there now metha was standing with a stick to point out various things on the maps there were a number of Maps stuck up so they said take a seat take a seat I sat down there's no time to waste let's get down to business straight away he said he said yes sir who said Genesis let's get down to business straight away you know how Sunday is yeah he speaks with strength I was still in my mind wondering what is this business no idea then he said well Bulbul he called me by my nickname he says Bulbul we've called you here for a very special mission and General Mehta my mggs will now brief you of what the situation in Amritsar is the situation is very serious and we want you to move to Amritsar the moment this briefing is over and start planning the


moment this briefing is over and start planning the operation so I said so this evening I'm flying to Manila I'm on two months annual leave so he looked at General Dayal Journal there looked at him cancer they whispered to each other they spoke a few words and then he said I'm sorry your leave is canceled there's a more important job waiting for you sure you can have your leave after that I said all right so then started the briefing and in the briefing they told me how bad things were and how kalistan may be declared within the next five or six days and if kalistan is declared Pakistan would cross the border and get into India are part of Punjab just as we went into Bangladesh they would recognize kalistan they would say kalistan is recognized by Pakistan they would cross the border and start moving towards Amritsar now at that stage we would have to defend the Border so troops there to be adequate troops to defend that border so the division in Amritsar


to defend that border so the division in Amritsar there was one division in Amritsar they were given the task to defend the borders they had moved into the areas right along the front my division was in Merit I came down by air my troops were still in Merit so he said the task will be too much we'd have to stop Pakistan from entering India there's a possibility Punjab police will uh Mutiny and join in with kalistan they'll recognize kalistan and they say that is our state as it is they had become dysfunctional so we would have to then disarm the police so he was not part of this war room at this time it was just the Army okay so the police would have to be disarmed at the same time we'd be have to be defending our territory from Pakistani invasion and there would be a terrible situation of the 1947 rats like it happened in 1947. the Hindus from Punjab would be rushing out towards Delhi and haryana the


be rushing out towards Delhi and haryana the Sikhs from haryana and Delhi would be rushing into Punjab so a large number of forces would be required for rat control so the Army would have to now make sure you defend your territory against Pakistan you disarm the police that means there would be no police as it is the police was ineffective Army would have to take over complete control and at the same time you do rat control who else was there to do that control of the police has become ineffective so it would have been a very difficult task and therefore it was necessary that whatever operation we have to carry out must be done surgical operation we mustn't give them time the masses and The Villages mustn't know that we've gotten realization should be stopped at any cost so The Briefing took place right and he said to me he said today is the first I don't think we have more than four or five days so you go you get to um Amritsar there's a


you go you get to um Amritsar there's a plane waiting outside to take you to Amritsar you ask your troops to start moving from Merit Meanwhile my headquarters has given orders that the transport and everything should be kept ready and they've already been warned to be ready to move to Amritsar I had one Brigade in jalandha and to a number sir so they all had to start moving to Amritsar that itself was a would have taken them a full day by road by road and I had to move to Amrita by air a couple of my staff officers from meerut also flew down by air so he said I'll come to you on the third for your first briefing that'll give you about 48 hours to make your outline plan we'll discuss it as to how we're going to carry out this operation I said sure So and I said meanwhile can I send word to my wife in Delhi to say that our leave is canceled please return the tickets I'm not returning back I'm going


return the tickets I'm not returning back I'm going on a mission and I'll speak to you later of course so his stuff offs rang up my wife informed her because they didn't want me to waste any time to inform her General is not returning to Delhi he has been given a mission the leave is canceled you're not going to Manila he will get in touch with you later today when mission's done so this briefing ended everyone was quiet over there we didn't know what to expect but you know it's an enormous task so I saluted him and I said I will wait for you on the third so meanwhile I'll go and carry out my planning and I flew down to Amritsar I drove down to headquarters 15 Infantry Division they're they're the division in Amritsar they're the ones who should have actually been given this task because they know the golden temple they know the police forces they know who's the DG police they know who's the Deputy Commissioner they know who's the


who's the Deputy Commissioner they know who's the commissioner I'm a new man I've come from an a different area all together I've literally come from up there it is in the up with no idea about the golden temple but then one has to realize that that division had a task on the border so either I go to the Border but I wouldn't know uh what are the tasks over there they're already ready to take on the pakistanis so I was the best man to undertake this task and I left for amritsa and um went straight to the headquarters of the division I had my staff to open a war room there we set up a war room put up all the maps I said we'll have a little initial briefing first and then we will have a larger audience all police forces had been placed under my command the DG police the crpf they were now all under my command so I could call them anytime but first let me make my own plan before I called them so the


make my own plan before I called them so the whole of that day first of June um went in the thinking process how should how do we do this there were various advisors there from within the army and it was decided that it has to be a surgical operation but um there is no other way except to physically enter the Golden Temple one had earlier talked about uh an aerial operation coming by helicopters dropping people into the Golden Temple you know then they realized that it will be too dangerous because they're very heavily armed inside that Golden Temple about 2 000 of them you had Intel about how many people what are the arms and which section of the temple they're sitting in well hazy information because who was there to give you information you know the we had when I got to Amritsar I got to know that there are about two thousand of these terrorists inside they're heavily armed they've got machine guns rocket launchers grenades light machine guns and rifles country guns and they


light machine guns and rifles country guns and they have made emplacements inside the marble of the temple they've got sandbags all over they've closed all the windows closed all the doors they blocked everything they were preparing for an assault yeah yeah they were preparing for an assault but they still in their minds believed that the government of India wouldn't be strong enough to order an assault inside but they weren't strong enough I'm sorry to say this but when when the government of the day can see this kind of Weaponry going inside any place of worship they aren't strong enough they couldn't stop it from happening I mean I'm seeing it in hindsight sir you see people closed their eyes when these weapons were going and the police was too frightened of the terrorists they dare not check the vehicles they denote check what's going in and can you imagine how many vehicles come in every day every day they must be feeding thousands and thousands of people who come there to pray in the Golden


of people who come there to pray in the Golden Temple they have their Langer as you know inside the Golden Temple rice Dal Roti vegetables so they would have enough drugs for at least 15 days 15 days of cooking oil Atta ghee rice done everything was there also what I'm told is that that was an ERA when there were no um there were no those bulletproof Gates uh the frisking weapons one you know those instruments weren't there so it was easy to smuggle in granite's locket launchers within under vegetables they were coming in with these longer trucks you know the food was coming into the Golden Temple in those trucks the weapons were coming in and they were covered though the police may have got some idea about it but the idea was not accurate and there were no dogs sniffer dogs no nothing like that the police did not come near the golden temple right sir I couldn't see a man in khaki dress around there you went till the temple yeah you did yeah


you went till the temple yeah you did yeah it said that you did some kind of a Reiki to inside the temple I I did my Reiki from outside I dare not do it inside I did not stay inside because if they get hold of me I'm the commander of this operation the operation won't start they would have recognized you of course they would have recognized me there was a trap there called General shabik Singh good friends 71 walk 71 War before that when I was a Cadet in the jsw part of NDA part of the Indian military academy he was my instructor he was a captain yeah and I was a Cadet so I knew shabik Singh from that time then of course 71 war and in fact I was told uh when the operation was over by a number of these people who we had captured prisoners they said shabik Singh had told bhindwale that it's not going to be easy we're going to have a tough fight if the Army decides to come


a tough fight if the Army decides to come in because I can see General bulbulbra outside I was outside on the rooftop somewhere else he said I can see him I know he's in charge of this operation and he's a tough guy he's a jet sick just like you and just like me we are all just six we fight and it's not going to be easy we're going to have a tough time on us and you knew that General Chavez is there yeah and uh it's not going to be easy for you either be correct I knew what a crafty man he was and when I saw those defenses and I saw how our troops were facing casualties when they went in I realized that Shaw Big's planning had been superb Human Action you know in Wartime yeah and you know when you say crafty you mean I mean his craft was good his Warcraft was good so long as it was for India that's right but here he was using that craft in a terror


but here he was using that craft in a terror operation that's right right but it's still craft you see yeah he still uh knew how to defend the place so you have this uh who you you don't uh have any good things to say about him he was he wasn't and here you have this crafty jutsic whose patriotism one could never even thinks twice about you had such complete faith in it and so what happened to him unfortunately he was court-martialed um what exactly his crime was I don't know and he was dismissed from service a little before operation Brewster he was dismissed from Service as a major general so his anger he was very angry with not only the Army but with the government of India because he considered himself a very good officer a good soldier and he didn't believe he had done anything wrong but the court martial found him guilty and the verdict was uh so he decided to go to Amritsar and seek the blessings of um this cult


and seek the blessings of um this cult anyone who had any problem or trouble in Punjab they always went to seek the blessings of bendenwali so there's General Bulbul and general shabik that's it at the two ends of the fort that's right so tell me what were your instructions then obviously General sundarji knew that you and general shabeg have worked together well it was known and general santaji had a lot of faith in me a lot of confidence in me after all he was my Army Commander he I was one of his divisional commanders they had attended a number of exercises with me I had secured a competitive vacancy to go for self-college to Australia I had commanded in not only an infantry Brigade but also in Ahmed Brigade which an infantry man doesn't normally get to command after commanding the Ahmed Brigade I was sent to the United States of America to do the war Cottage so I had and from the war College I came to military operations


and from the war College I came to military operations directorate in Delhi the hot seat uh for war preparations I'd gone through all this and generally felt that here is the guy who will be able to deliver the good and it's a huge task which means it's not just an anti-terror operation it's not one Terror up it's it had larger ramifications absolutely right absolutely so now tell me you're on your third first week of June so the next day we made out our little plan that one battalion will Cordon the place one battalion will enter from this gate another one will come from that gate and we'll start this operation around about nine o'clock at night we need time to fight and we need time to clear the golden temple and it must be done before Dawn before what we call First Light a few hours only few hours only and thousands of people inside yeah because if you wait till it's daylight the news would spread now people are sleeping around so they don't know what's


people are sleeping around so they don't know what's going on and it's the age before uh cell phones and things so there's no way there was no way but by next day the news would have spread that the Indian army is inside the golden temple and people would have started rushing in so this operation had to end by Dawn and if you started it too early it's not dark enough you don't have the cover of carrying out your task so the best time we thought was around about 8 30 9 o'clock we will start this operation and be over by six o'clock or 6 30 in the morning that was the hope of course it took a little longer it went down to about 7 38 nine o'clock because akal tax wouldn't give in we were suffering heavy casualties machine guns were firing from us from places which we never imagined which we couldn't see from Within Walls from within doors there was no satellite imagery radar imagery nothing you didn't know the position of the guns no


nothing you didn't know the position of the guns no no so it was like a boxer going into the boxing ring with one hand tied behind his back and allowed to fight with only one hand because you don't have all the resources with you why you don't know where the enemy is you don't know who the enemy is where the weapons are so you you don't have a free hand resources you didn't see uh it said that you did you could have taken an anti-tank equipment you could have taken heavy machinery inside no you see but did you didn't you we didn't want any damage one of the general santaji had given me three terms of reference he said the operation must start as soon as possible but definitely in the next three or four days it it must be over the same night because of the reasons I just gave you and you must make sure that the minimum damage to the golden temple to the buildings and to human beings minimum damage there were a lot of civilians inside religious people inside


were a lot of civilians inside religious people inside you can't just shoot them at a will so you went into this action with number of uh holds your hands were tied it was you you couldn't do whatever you want you couldn't just walk in with tanks that's what we said that tanks anti-tanks machine guns did they go in at all bulldozers no no because the entrance is so narrow you can't you can't go in you can't go no you have to start breaking the walls and all so there's a lot of disinfo the reason I'm saying this is because uh gents up there's a lot of disinformation that there was Heavy Weaponry that went in you're saying a tank tank one tank was brought in uh around about three o'clock or four or four o'clock or five o'clock in the morning when we were suffering very heavy casualties they came in from lira broke that door and came onto the parakrama with one aim the aim was they have a very bright light called


the aim was they have a very bright light called the Xenon lamp you know uh it's it it blinds you it blinds you the idea was that they will switch on their lights and the people in the occult from where we were getting the heaviest amount of firing most of our casualties took place in front of the occulta so they were firing from the akalta onto the Indian army which was in front of the that's right so we wanted these tanks now or one tank or two tanks to try and blind those people so that at least for a little time you're blinded and our troops can get in right now unfortunately when the first light came on it lasted not even one minute a few seconds and got fused these bulbs get fused very fast then we brought in another tank how did those tanks come in so you might they must have broken some walls or something the path is too narrow they were able to enter the paragramas through a gate okay there was a gate there


through a gate okay there was a gate there and they had to break a little bit of the perkrama to get on yeah so putting lights on these people to blindfold blind them and put our troops forward didn't work the firing continued from all directions and we didn't want to bring in heavy weapons because of the Restriction given minimum force no damage to buildings no damage to the temple Etc so the akal tax was not fired upon by the Indian army no no okay they were firing from the akalta the Indian army took the casualties but did not fire only am I right you're right okay we did not fart on the occult we were firing at the people who were outside the occult Maybe if someone is far from inside the occult tuck to return as far someone may have fought you can't say at that time of the night if anyone did or did not but the orders were not too far towards the other but then the fact is what do you do um you you


the fact is what do you do um you you just allow your men to keep dying you go to take some action you were there inside the temple no I was outside did you get information that within X number of hours so many soldiers of ours are done how much did how many people did we lose in that matter of eight to ten hours in those eight to ten hours we must have lost three two hundred three to four hundred and what were the casualties on the other side would you know how many people died on the other side on the other side yeah on the terrorist side on the terrorist side maybe about five to six hundred okay and there must have been some civilian casualties too some civilian casualties in fact they weren't allowing the civilians to go out the civilians were used as Shields a shield by the terrorists by the terrorists okay and in fact um uh on the day that we were to go in my my officers started making calls on loudspeakers from outside


my officers started making calls on loudspeakers from outside the golden temple to say that we're going to come in if you want to fight it's up to you we would suggest you avoid Bloodshed and we come to a peaceful agreement but if you insist on fighting okay but please let the civilians the women the children the men innocent people let them come out hmm no one came out these announcements went on for two hours no one came out after two hours seven or eight old sick guys came out okay too feeble to stay inside and from them we learned that they're not letting the others come out they hold they've held on to them okay so you debriefed those who came out yeah you did yeah we briefly debriefed them so now the question was when they were not taking heat to our loudspeaker announcements how long can you go on delaying the operation because the longer you delay it you're not going to end by Dawn it will go become 10 o'clock 11 o'clock Twelve


will go become 10 o'clock 11 o'clock Twelve O'Clock in the daytime in the daytime you'll have thousands of six all over there so are you get at this time getting calls from Delhi from chandi mandir saying javandar or was a date given to you beforehand how did it happen it was a date given to you for entry or was it left to you to decide when to enter no General sandhuji had set up his command post where was that outside the golden temple on one of the on one of the buildings I had my command post I was in touch with General sandhuji on the radio all the time all my subunit commanders from all the battalions were in touch with me all the time how many casualties they've suffered what is happening where what how much of the ground have they gained what difficulties are they finding so we were in touch all the time so when what happens when you enter when when the troops enter Indian troops initial I'll tell


when the troops enter Indian troops initial I'll tell you um what is the formation first let me tell you that on that morning when we went in that morning I decided to address all the troops who were going to go in about five battalions or four battalions I started at five o'clock in the morning went to one battalion then to the next one until the third I spoke to them and I explained to them what the situation was I said the situation is terrible they're holding this religious place as a fortress they're determined on establishing kalistan there's no law an order left in the state we have to go in we have to recover the golden temple from these terrorists if there's anyone amongst you who doesn't want to go in for religious reasons or any other reasons I don't hold it against you just stand up and stand aside your commanding officers are here I order them that no action would be taken against you first Battalion no one got up and second


you first Battalion no one got up and second Battalion no one got up Third Battalion one young sick boy he got up I said no problem son you don't have to go in you have strong feelings I told this you I said he won't go in he says you've got me wrong sir You Got Me Wrong sir not only do I want to go in I want to be the first one to go in I want to be the first one to reach the account and to get bindunware amazing I said you're a very brave man I salute you and I told the commanding officer his platoon will be the first to enter and he will be the platoon Commander with these troops there Brave fellow Captain Reina Sikh boy you belong to the Jammu area you have a lot of six there also yeah there was a chief no General Reiner there was a chief also there was a chief right now yeah but he was uh no he was not from no yeah so I spoke


no he was not from no yeah so I spoke to everyone he was the only one who got up and said he wants to go in okay so now the operation started his platoon was the first to enter the Golden Temple and as they entered fire came from all directions heavy firing on them I I could hear people dying they can't make progress he said I'm trying very hard but there's a lot of firing going on and from underground tunnels also there was firing going on you know from the walls so then I had to um Russian more troops and I told his commanding officer I said how is he he said he's been very badly wounded both his legs have been shot Captain Reina I said evacuate him bring him out immediately I have an ambulance waiting here I'll send him to the hospital straight away he said he's refusing to come out he's crawling he's going on all his foes he's carrying on he says I'm going to reach they are called I'm not


I'm going to reach they are called I'm not going back I said now forcibly because he's bleeding so heavily forcibly pick him up and bring him out so he was forcibly brought out sent to hospital immediately evacuated both legs amputated both legs amputated I got him the Ashoka chakra the highest award that you can give to a person not an actual War he got the award of Ashoka chakra he went into Raj Bhavan I was in Raj Bhavan the day the award was given to him he was not married so his father and mother accompanied him he was in a wheelchair without his legs and the president instead of you have to go up the two steps to receive your medal from the president the president came down to steps to pin the award on him because he couldn't go up Captain Reina and I was there with tears in my eyes and everyone in the audience had tears in the eyes that this is what our Indian soldiers are we are ready to give our


our Indian soldiers are we are ready to give our life and when I spoke to the Troops on that first morning I told them I said we are not going against any enemy we are not going against Pakistan or China or an external Force just remember we are going in there against our own people who have taken up arms against the State against the country who want who have become creators to this country and they want to establish their own state so when you go in there don't think you're going to war you're not going to war you're going to get hold of these people these myths-informed people who have got onto the wrong path and I want you to keep that in mind when you are fighting this action these were my briefings to them so and they were now all prepared for it so we suffered casualties they suffered casualties who took out uh bindrawali and who took out shabeg we don't know they were inside their command posts in the golden temple was he fighting too no


in the golden temple was he fighting too no you know the uh there's so many things I can tell you about but I don't want to but he was no military commander right no no no he was a a religious man who could give you sermons so because I'm simply asking because now there's this whole um photographs and everything yeah hey these photographs and I can in the in the social media he's painted to be some kind of uh um military uh person some hero nowhere nowhere in fact some of the things that we discovered about him inside the Golden Temple I won't tell you some of the things that he did there um you would be ashamed to hear even and some of the things that we saw were too horrible for me to speak about General shabek you you were with him he was a comrade you you worked with him in the service he was a soldier he died there well how does it feel when you see the body when you see that one person with


see the body when you see that one person with whom you shared so much yeah and he's there I had no feelings left because I said how could how can he have done this how could he he was a soldier when you joined the army put on your uniform you take an oath that I will preserve the Integrity of the country I will fight for this country I said here is a soldier who is not fighting for his country but he's fighting against his country so he was a traitor and there is nothing about his past that redeemed him you feel so although I admired the man before before earlier on but when I saw him here I had no admiration left for him he was doing something um which you wouldn't expect a disciplined Soldier to do yeah but everyone can't feel a sense of what a waste so he was found dead still holding his revolver in his hand yeah I believe so so tell me uh gel sub that operationally could things have been done better because a lot


operationally could things have been done better because a lot is said that maybe if the operation had been delayed by two days I don't know because I was still a student in those days but what I've read is that people say maybe if the operation had been postponed by two more days or or if you see what happened with operation Black Thunder that that was a better uh planned operation we were I'll kill you on Black Thunder first hmm foreign there were no strong religious leaders in there it was a normal Gurdwara by that time they knew that the Army has gone into once before one before they'll go come in here also so there was no way that they were going to fight or offer a fight or anything they just meekly surrendered and I think the weight out was done right yeah the Rajiv Gandhi also at that time decided that there was so much disinformation which happened in the previous operation in Black Thunder we had our cameras focused there all the time yeah so it was


cameras focused there all the time yeah so it was under media Glacier there was that fog of disinformation that's right which was there in a blue star it was not there in Black the media was sent away from Amritsar yes all these people media fellows that I know when I meet them they say we weren't there we were sent away Mark Tully and the others yeah they were told two days before that uh that leave because nothing's happening we learned a lesson and therefore in kargil Ola media was present when the operation was taking place in kargil right so Black Thunder was I I don't call it any operation you know they just um a flushing out of terrorism but whereas a blue star was a uh they were fighting fighting for death you know fighting for what they they believed in they believed in their own State their own country their own thing their own uh uh they looked at us as enemies they consider themselves a different class of people just 40 years later when you


different class of people just 40 years later when you look back could we have done things differently I don't think so we've thought about it often after the operation I discussed for General sandhuji also a number of times a lot of things had been discussed can it be done in any other way if you delete as it is kalistan is going to be declared any day then you would regret that I delayed it and they declared khalistan and Pakistan was actively supporting you see and then all those problems would start at the same time the news would be going around the armies are there we have not started our operation the crowds would have started coming in towards the Golden Temple foreign so maybe we wouldn't be able to start our operation with all this civilians converging on us from all directions General sandhuji was a very intelligent man he thought of everything before doing this in in your military history in the annals of military history will this be seen as a botched up operation semi-bashed


this be seen as a botched up operation semi-bashed up operation successful operation those those who are anti antiers will say botched up operation I will say let me see anyone else who would have done something better and come out successful right it it was not easy I I know what nightmares I've been having after that even not easy to carry out an operation like that the the post-traumatic stress disorder that one here is about what it is the most difficult most difficult orders I've given in my life to my soldiers you you're being fired upon you will not return first someone is firing at you from the occult or from the Harminder sub you will not return fire you take the fire and die but you will not return fire you know some of the most unreasonable orders you give to a soldier who says I'm here to fight if I'm being shortered I must shout back and you say no you're not going to shoot back so sometimes I I have this feeling in me that maybe I was I


have this feeling in me that maybe I was I couldn't sleep for many nights thinking how did I order this give this past such orders these were you were told to give these orders right yeah yeah they will not return they will not fire in the direction of occult or the Herman themselves Joseph do you know of any operation before or after that that this has happened because I know of gerardi Sharif was done there was that the charary Sharif flushing out of terrorists but there was no such instruction given uh at that stage Sharif Kashmir Kashmir no yeah there were militants lodged in there but uh it was the same thing that don't don't pull down don't do it but the militants had said we will not let you in and we will pull this down but we will not let you come in so even though it was lined up with explosives they didn't do it it wasn't done so have you had this kind of an experience before or after that no nothing where a


an experience before or after that no nothing where a place of worship was flushed out by terrorists no and your men were told don't fire on the harmandir no you've been under Terror attacks threats for the past 40 years tell us tell us about that incident in London when an assassination attempt was made on you okay it wouldn't be uh you you can live under that kind of a threat for two years five years you have done that for 40 years I'm going to read out one part you said uh suddenly Four Strong Sikhs grabbed me one attacked my wife I had very little time to react they tried to kill me with their care pants yeah being a soldier my first instinct was to fight back and not give in I kicked and they first slashed I abused I shouted I did everything here and first they slashed my back yeah they finally slashed my throat they were all arrested and sentenced to imprisonment ranging from 10 to 15 years where did they it was first


10 to 15 years where did they it was first at my back then he missed my throat it went on my cheek then here but when I went for surgery immediately after that they rushed me to hospital the the surgeon said luckily they had not gone deep enough okay you see I was what had happened on the in that attack is that in this two minutes or one minute that we were fighting he was hurting me and I was kicking him and all that sort of stuff one of them dropped his telephone are you already in your 70s by now when the attack happened you're in your 70s yeah but you hit back kick back yeah as a soldier what joints you have two choices either give up and say okay take me or you fight back so your immediate Instinct was to fight back if I had not fought back I'd be lying on the floor dead your wife was with you no my wife was with me but one of them had pushed her and taken and banged out


them had pushed her and taken and banged out next to the wall she couldn't see what was happening okay and how many were there on you four you fought back four men four assassins yeah you fight back four assassins and they leave you bleeding on the ground yeah because by that time the police no not police um there's a bar close by people from the bar from somewhere else my wife was shouting help help some passes by were coming in so they ran they ran because they they saw people coming in did you at that point think that you don't stand a chance because General vaidya had already been assassinated uh by then yeah you must have always known that that one day I'm going I still say that I still say that um it's just a question of time now they're going to get me one day or the other uh I'm now going to be 89 this year okay I've lived my life in any case even a natural death would be my 1991 92 so I'm ready


death would be my 1991 92 so I'm ready to go how does your family live with that with that knowledge that assassins can get you anytime well there's nothing they can do about it they just have that worry chance of it said that you know in 2014 a controversy broke out that a British MP claimed at that time that you know these these right that the SAS said they may have gone to Delhi or Indira Gandhi or whatever no one came to me or to Amritsar uh it's uh I've been interviewed on this number of times I say all lies it was a purely Indian army operation purely no one from outside how do you react when you get to know that you know there's this revival of the kalistani movement which is happening funded aided uh encouraged in Canada and in the UK at times I go to UK I go to UK I go to South Hall I see pictures everywhere everyone is you know I said well what what's happening it is our


I said well what what's happening it is our uh does photo which is going abroad or in our Indian people who have gone abroad who are more Pro kalistan and all that than those who are in India are you worried at all that in Punjab there is a Resurgence of this movement yes yes yes Pakistan is also assisting them you see in Canada London Canada America Pakistan all together they they want a Resurgence here at that time you know you mentioned about a and then it is only then that the Indian army was asked to go in when the police was totally then you have somebody like KPS Gill yeah uh who took on the post uh 1984 who took on the task of eliminating terrorism from uh Punjab now he too is demonized yeah a hell of a lot by this whole kalistani this new kalistani movement what do you think his role was uh in in Punjab at that time hello as ggp his role was [Music] to to to Stamp Out terrorism in Punjab he


to to to Stamp Out terrorism in Punjab he did it very well I admire DGP Gill I think he did it very well this is one I'll show you this is now they placed a bounty of 250 000 I don't know how many 25 crores or something online 250 000 dollars so this this Carries On they send me messages from there also they send you messages that they will eliminate you they send me messages that you you we're going to eliminate you you know on the electronic media somewhere or the other through some means get my email address send me a message is there any sense of regret General sub that maybe it shouldn't have happened the way it did what shouldn't have happened the operation Operation Blue Star no no one no one wants an operation but what do you do do you uh allow the Indra Gandhi allowed him to become a Frankenstein you you could see bindon Valley every year what was happening but when he reached um The Pinnacle now to finish him


he reached um The Pinnacle now to finish him off now destroy him it's too late so you feel that the civilian Administration didn't do enough the administration the political leadership they allowed this cult to build to bring and you because you're from the same area as bindrawali you you saw this happening in Punjab I mean your relatives and all must have you you're from a fauji family an illustrious fauji family yourself you said third generation Soldier secondary you know so you must have seen this happening there right yeah you knew what was happening yeah but obviously the political leadership didn't want to listen to anything no they they had their own little um between akali and Congress and you know their own political problems support so and so they didn't want any and they allowed this culture of bhindra Wale to continue to continue yeah and uh Jessup if you if you were to look back could the operation have been handled better I don't know I uh how am I to say that someone


know I uh how am I to say that someone else can say that I I feel we did whatever we could to the best uh in the best manner that we had okay so uh let me now uh now that we've Operation Blue Star let me get on to uh the 1971 uh War yeah first let me find this picture for you of these four fellows who tried to kill me there was one woman and three men you you knew that they that they were Sikhs who were attacking you that they were kalistanis yeah when they came towards you how what were they wearing exactly like this yeah exactly I guess this picture is taken at that time my mother's brother happy-go-lucky fellow seek we are all just sick happy-go-lucky fellow lived in London married to um a person in London only when I used to go there come on let's go to the pub let's go to the bar we'd have a drink here there and the other but after this operation what came over him sitting in London


after this operation what came over him sitting in London he'd go to South Hall every day he would be praying from morning to night he broke off all ties with the entire family he said I want to I'm going to kill this fellow Bulbul when I can and um this is your relative my mother's brother he it went into him that the six um were killed by us so I was on a visit in London and now he started suffering from cancer he was in hospital so I said I'd like to meet him so his daughter said I don't know whether he'll be in a condition to meet you or he whether he wants to meet you or not I said you ask him say Bulbul is here on a little holiday and he wants to meet you because he has heard that you're very unwell he wants to wish you well and wants to meet you if he says yes I'll go and if he says no I won't go in so she said he said okay so I went


in so she said he said okay so I went in he was lying in bed long beard doing this so I put out my hand to him and I said Bunty Bulbul here you know he started crying tears coming down his eyes he held my hand grasped my hand and he said bulbula I'm sorry I feel so sorry that I behaved in such a manner I cursed myself for it you did what you had to do I said you wanted to kill us all he says the biggest mistake of my life he was immediate relation mother's brother did you lose family friends also yes family and friends yes friends who just wouldn't forgive you for yeah even though you were just doing your duty yeah those who are very you know religious bound and they're not prepared to forgive they still hold it he's responsible he's responsible Joseph if I may ask um why were you picked I mean you were a judge sick too right they could have picked up somebody else to do this operation General they


picked up somebody else to do this operation General they could have taken anybody why a judge sick to do this I don't know whether they thought of all those things is it thought of at all in an army is a person's religion a consideration when doing an operation like this no no uh what what general sandhuji tells me um he says General vaidya told him you you're going to carry out this operation it was Western command Army Commander you pick up a general your choice select anyone you want so he said I selected I had confidence in him I know him I picked him up so generally personally picked me up without thinking uh whether I'm a Sikh or a Gujarati or a party or a Christian I'm a soldier and when you're a soldier you don't think whether you're sick or a judge or a Brahman or what you know you you you're fighting for your nation so so yes I get that but you know what happened in the forces then there were there were


happened in the forces then there were there were rumors or not there were incidents of mutiny there were there were times when people took off their uniform and said we cannot after this operation do you fear that something similar could happen now is the Indian army inured towards that kind of that kind something like that happening ever again it all depends on leadership as it is provided if your officers lead from the front if your officers are there to spend time with the troops with the soldiers if the soldiers have confidence in their offices nothing like this will happen but if the officers don't bother about their soldiers they're out having their drinks going to the bar going for parties going here and there then you cannot command respect you cannot command following they won't follow you in war it has to be implicit trust a soldier has to have implicit trust in an officer so it depends on the quality of officers and I don't think today you have the quality of officers that we had maybe


you have the quality of officers that we had maybe 30 years ago or 40 years ago we have become more materialistic hmm we're thinking of building a house buying a new car doing this doing that olden days I see my own father he retired as a general they were different tribe all together so one concept when you were in uh in the 1971 War The Liberation of Bangladesh what was it like then what were the operations that you conducted I believe uh General shabek I keep coming back to General shabek I believe he was involved in training the mukti bahini that's right at that stage what was what was your area that you could do because now time has passed I guess you can tell us my area was to take my Battalion from the most unexpected route into Dhaka okay Dhaka so there were large formations with tanks coming towards Dhaka from always pakistanis never expected that a force will come in from here I had to cross the brahmaputra river there's no


had to cross the brahmaputra river there's no Bridge on the brahmaputra River and to cross a river take your whole Battalion across and then get behind the enemy my task was get behind the enemy trap him there and then we have a para drop at a place called tangal then you link up with them and move on to Dhaka how to cross brahmaputra river so we decided the only way is we go in country boats huge fishing boats how many men were you we were about 600 okay so about 30 to 40 in a boat about 20 boats so in three days or four days we collected all these boats then we collected bullet cuts about 40 Bullock cuts we said we'll put our heavy weapons and ammunition and rations on these Bullock Cuts because once we've crossed the brahmaputra river how do we start advancing we have no trucks we have no transport we are on foot man pack basis so the bull accounts will carry our luggage so we mustered these boats


will carry our luggage so we mustered these boats we got into the boats one person with a torch in each boat fleshing the torch here flashing because we crossed at night at night we went across the brahmaputra river silently Pakistan is there on the other side they didn't know that we are crossing the brahmaputra river we got across and we got behind this post called jamalpur and we dug in there in Paddy fields I could see the post in front two nights we stayed dug in the behind this jamalpur post buses and trucks and all moving on the road we kept quiet they didn't know any soldiers sitting here carried out a little reconnaissance at night found out exactly where these pakistanis are and we were planning our attack to attack jamalpur now meanwhile they got the scent that there's someone some people sitting behind us in the Paddy fields in The Paddy Fields they said must be mukti by name there's certain the other must have been


by name there's certain the other must have been filtrated they must be there will rush them meanwhile General nyazi sent them a message to say that Indian army is coming from all directions Dhaka is now being threatened we are short of forces you fall back on DACA now so the whole Battalion 31st baluch they got ready with their weapons they got into their vehicles and suddenly from The Paddy fields we see headlights coming towards us you know they're they're rushing down the road coming down the road in a single file like this so I had groups on both sides of the road with rocket launchers and all that fire ambushed them on the road Ambush them on the road they started jumping out of the vehicles shouting Allahu Akbar this and the others some people started charging towards our trenches we were not wrenches in The Paddy Fields some are lying on the road dead wounded some are rushing towards us and we knocked them out while they're coming hundreds of them were killed


out while they're coming hundreds of them were killed in that operation eventually a group came out from jamalpur carrying a white flag surrender be surrender so I sent a major major number to go in there and accept their surrender the same who became General number okay he was Major then he was a major he was my company Commander his brother in the Foreign Service yeah he was Ambassador and wrote no it's very good family so I told number you go get the surrender so they surrendered and then now how do we and how did we get to that place or we were marching and Bullocks were carrying our weapons and our um rations so the tangai paradrop has not yet happened when this yet happened okay now the day we this action took place in jamalpur 4 pm para drop was to take place at tangoil 4pm and now it was 6 A.M how do we get there and if we don't get there and a para drop takes place Pakistan sitting


get there and a para drop takes place Pakistan sitting ducks would come with their tanks and all that yeah so I sent my officers including number I said let's muster whatever transport we can buses trucks fire engines automobiles Auto rickshaws Vans multitude of vehicles we mustered we all got into those vehicles and started moving towards tangail four o'clock a paratroopers dropped there quarter past four we are in tangail and they were also marathas the paracuper second marathas we were first marathos is and we had their chap called tiger Siddiqui from Bangladesh she was waiting there also and then from what a warrior Warrior there are stories about tiger Siddiqui which are like you're like a warrior he would March like Hitler gestapo step you know he saluted us and all that and then we moved to Dhaka now we get to the outskirts of Dhaka we are not in communication with anyone in the Indian army we are not in radio touch with anyone we can't


are not in radio touch with anyone we can't speak to anyone somehow out of range just than the other we get to a place called mirpur Bridge which is Outskirts of Dhaka and we dug in we said we can see Dhaka in front on the radio we're hearing announcements from manic Shaw to say surrender I ask you all to surrender we'll be given Geneva Convention treatment we look after you why do you want to give your lives please surrender oh you heard this legendary speech of general not once not twice it he is repeated it about six times you know yeah I'm asking you to surrender you're listening to it and saying how do we tell people in India in shillong and Calcutta that we are already Dhaka is already falling so my Brigade Commander with chap called Brigadier Claire it's also a sardarji and my jio civil General nagra very fine man yes so nagra said why don't we send a petrol to the bridge to