egos here you put a finger on any building in the mapper he will get you that is meeting ended I pulled out my wallet to pay now this same guy was so aggressive he says nicer you are our guest Alfie came out this is where I was back on him Amazing Story sometimes uh I'd rather say one should always be a good human being in the worst of these situations there are people we need to look after them uh so you have had a very long career in the end core I know a lot of young officers from the Encore who talk who praise you that they have learned from you their teammates others when you joined in the end core who was your ustad who was your Guru who who was who was honeybakshi for you I was a rookie even in fact when we came in you not believe I went for my proper official intelligence training in my sixth year of service okay because we were direct I mean so naturally you had to be an apprentice under


so naturally you had to be an apprentice under somebody uh in the Army we have a lot of things about ranks yes initially they used to be a GCO in maps and this this was which year 1990 uh terrorism had started huh I got commissioned in 88 89 we went for an infantry attachment in 90 I was there in Kashmir there was this Json apps with our Cara um captain retirement is he taught me such small nuances of Life I'll give you a simple example don't know we're going to meet a source in some location so I felt like going for a leak um he came from behind he gave me a pat is actually you were going as a kufia we were both going to meet somebody and we were in open no vehicle no nothing just two of us one pistol each and uh that's fresh like but like he taught me those small nuances survival tactic that you got to understand the culture you got to understand everything of the place once you're here


to understand everything of the place once you're here is it rookie not even three months in the rather it was not even two months in the uh intelligence and uh another thing that he taught me which actually took me a long way anybody he discussed he went back and he wrote and he kept those Diaries as logs because you see he left I left what is in the memory goes with you correct institutional memory is very important very very important so used to write those logs and he very small things but I've been trying to look for him and now finally I've been able to find out that he's somewhere in kumao so I'll ask my regimental Center to give me his address I really want to go and meet him once I wouldn't have been sitting here and talking to you had it not been it's been a very Illuminating conversation and we've learned a lot from listening about the trials and tribulations and the interesting life that you'd LED rewarding also uh to a great extent but


LED rewarding also uh to a great extent but life is a mix it's a mix it's a mix it's a mix and uh and it's also a learning experience for us that how much our written word impacts on lives and for us to learn from the negatives and the positives of your life thank you so much sir for coming to our studio and being part of this conversation my pleasure my pleasure thank you thank you for watching or listening in to this conversation with colonel hanibakshi please like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen or heard this on namaste foreign [Music]


today a flop actor earns more than the top performing editor in this industry and we are all in the business of content people want to comment on your life on your family on your journalism if you disagree with me disagree with me on subjects don't make it personal men still get the wrong message a lot of time newsrooms are full of predators and some of those who were let go off are back in positions of Power are being legitimized in more ways than one and what are we doing about it a lot of people write to me and every time I put a photo on Instagram people are like which is nice but I want to tell you and everyone else that you'll be back I will be back it'll be a better show hopefully and uh I want to do the show when I'm ready when I know it's going to work welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is palki Sharma upadhyay you've seen her on many television channels she has been reporting and


on many television channels she has been reporting and anchoring and especially on we on television she had a show called gravitas which was very successful I spoke to her on a number of issues on television news the future the past what it means like to be a TV journalist open to a lot of criticism male bosses the glass ceiling and the future ahead take a look Balki thank you so much for coming to Ani podcast with Smitha prakash I'm so glad you're here want to chat so much about journalism where TV journalism is headed uh women in TV but first I want to start with your show gravitas which you uh it was a path making show that you did on Beyond and it was kind of different you know like um of course everybody liked your style of presentation and everything but you decided to go swim against the tide instead of doing debates you know you decided that this explainer style that you will do uh was it your idea was it the channel and uh did you


your idea was it the channel and uh did you how did you manage to stick on with that idea despite the pressures probably to be like the others right first of all thank you for having me here it's always a pleasure to talk to you you're so kind you always say nice things about me so when you asked me for this I said okay I have to come and talk to you uh about the show um I've been in anchor for about 20 years now and um over the years I have done different slots and I've seen TV newsrooms and TV news evolve and I really enjoyed doing what I was doing because I could write I could say what I wanted to do say experiment in 2014 I think I first did my nine o'clock debates this was before you had done reporting on ground reporting yeah and and a lot of anchoring like I started with the breakfast show I you know moved on to different slots I I really enjoyed the breakfast show because that's the time when most of the


show because that's the time when most of the leaders editors are away so you can really experiment and do your own thing and nobody bothers if if you're not making some ghastly mistakes on air uh but like I said 20 40 14 is when I did the first debates and um I was miserable I did not I did not enjoy it because you know I I'm not I don't like being uncivil okay and that's what TV news had become and I I just went home very unhappy and I was so miserable that I left TV and I thought I've left it for good uh but it did not last so when I came back I was very clear that these are things that I'm not going to do and uh I did not even frankly come to do a nine o'clock or a prime time show I was told to do something on South Asia which I thought was a good idea and I could you know create my own content and sort of do something um somebody put it very


and sort of do something um somebody put it very nicely that that was the time when the channel was also taking shape so it was benign ignorance on the part of some or we just we just um I was very clear that I did not want too many Talking Heads uh or too many I did not want acrimony if people are talking they should make their point and move on and over the years you one also interacted with people who were not in the news industry and when you asked them they would say um you know people are watching all kinds of content right um I think because they were not getting value for their time and Beyond a point how much damage I mean if you really had to watch it you would probably watch Big Boss yeah I I so I thought and I was also not I was not enjoying it I'm sure there are people who are good at it and there is there is a market for reality TV and there are people who enjoy it but it was not me


are people who enjoy it but it was not me so that's where we started um I had a good team and the show evolved when it began I I don't think any of us had this idea that okay this is how it's going to be we took it one day at a time we did the stories that we liked uh sometimes it worked sometimes it did not work we just we just went with the tide I had an editor who was uh very open to experimentation did you do uh things that you thought the audience wanted or did you do like okay this is how we're going to do news how does it work I think it's a mix of both uh you do if if you're putting out something you want people to watch it and you want to be aligned with what they're thinking and increasingly in TV I think people come to you as much for information as for validation uh you know people write to you saying I read this story why didn't you do it if you've already read the story


you do it if you've already read the story why do you want to hear it from me you already know what it is so people come for all sorts of things and you you want to be in sync with what they're thinking but there are also times when you want to do a story because you you want to do that story like abortion in the U.S you know that story did not get us views uh and we went to town with it and and because some of us felt very strongly about it and we thought that even if this does not have an audience or the kind of audience that we're used to we'll still do it and we'll still lead with it because this is an important story so I I guess you have to sort of arrive at a balance and do a mix of both but I'll get to the abortion story and foreign news and you know the lack of interest at times in India for events which are happening outside of India unless it directly impacts on India that's there's


unless it directly impacts on India that's there's a lot that I've seen that happens but anyway I'll come to that but again the explainer bit which I asked you you know uh how did you get to that that okay this is my story and this is the explainer that I'm going to do uh uh I think it a lot of it came from personal experience I'm I'm raising two children who are very curious and who ask questions and I remember uh going to Israel just before prime minister modi's visit and I came back and I was telling something and my son was I think still five or six years old and then after I finished everything he said but you've not told me what's a Jew um and uh although he was young but I I it it sort of that was a penny drop moment that that there are a lot of people out there you know we we deal with abbreviations and acronyms and we assume that everyone's on the same page and we don't simplify and we


the same page and we don't simplify and we use long sentences and very convoluted ideas and a TV viewer does not have a the luxury of going back to now they do when they watch it on the phone but you know even when we were taught we were told that in a newspaper you can reread that same line thrives to make sense and I still try to read some of those you know quote copies which make no sense to me on the front page one sentence is a paragraph long but for the TV audience you know you have to to make your content accessible the onus is on you to get people to watch and not on them to watch uh so so we try to simplify the so this uh the whole process of this simplification or explanation the criticism many people make uh especially print journalists make is that this simplification is actually dumbing down you're you're presuming that your viewer doesn't know things but like you said that that's our job to make things understandable to everyone


that's our job to make things understandable to everyone not just the Specialists who are who are clicking your story because they are lobbied journalists or reading or think tankers who want to know about Ukraine situation it's not those people it's across the board right that's what you were saying if I'm not wrong yes and it's important to to decide who is your audience uh for me it was a blank slate and I remember telling my team once that everyone who understands English should want to watch if they're watching news in English they should want to watch what we're doing that's a very broad segment to cater to if you if you if you attend strategy meetings they'll give you TG 15 to 45 or Advertiser is looking at 25 to that's a very they try to restrict it yeah but I'm saying that anyone who understands understands English and wants to make sense of what's happening in the U.S midterm election should want to come and watch you so then you have to


to come and watch you so then you have to make it accessible to all so here uh you know your show even though it was like on an English Channel you had viewers who were non you know whose language primary language was not English people still liked it simply because some of them who I've spoken to was because they they agreed with your editorial line you pakka took an editorial line you didn't uh it was an editorial show it was a it was the edit page of the channel huh that's that's how we you were ready for that at that stage you didn't think both sides of the point that neutral neutrality is um I remember reading something very interesting that that uh in the pre-digitization age of news credibility was a commodity both sidism was something that that news media sort of adopted as a strategy because the advertiser wanted a broader section of the audience to watch and to try and buy what they were selling so it wasn't an ethical decision it was a market a business decision okay


ethical decision it was a market a business decision okay yeah but with uh and um with the Advent of digital uh you know news in the internet uh things opened up a lot and now we are not looking at all the viewers even if I mean we would want everyone to watch but we are looking at audience communities and audience communities are held by some glues like identity like ideology like an editorial line so that we we are not looking at we are not looking for people to only watch our news we want people to watch like share comment hmm interact completely and they will do they will be compelled to do it only when they something resonates so uh also what are we doing in our reporting uh we are looking at what Trump has tweeted or what Biden has tweeted and doing breaking news of that so I'm already on Twitter I've already seen it I don't need you to do that either you make sense of what this tweet means for me uh or just I I don't need you that


me uh or just I I don't need you that there was a time when we were relaying to the people what people in power are doing or saying but now that communication is direct okay so journalism that as we learned it was what happened when it happened where it happened why it happened that is already being communicated that's already done yeah yeah so you want to go beyond you think you have to evaluate yeah you were value-adding in your show that you did but you'd already done that part of Journalism first obviously because that the reporting yeah you you grew up doing that and that's that but then you keep do going back to it also right you went to Ukraine you did that reporting to you feel that as anchors it's necessary to do reporting as well to add you know to be with the story I don't think only as anchors uh I think we we started an experiment which worked very well over the last one year not just anchors even the people who are writing the people


just anchors even the people who are writing the people on desk our accompanying me uh to the field for assignments because the age of again restricting uh a journalist to the desk or to input or to research or to guest relations is fast um getting over hmm I think the person who's writing a story on your crane on the desk uh will be able to write a much better story if he also appreciates the logistical challenges that a reporter faces what happens on the ground so and also you could say that for whatever reasons resource but but we decided that an anchor can be a reporter can also be a writer can also do research we have we have to learn all the functions of a newsroom so with the quad Summit in Japan with Ukraine with Sri Lanka I've had a traditional desk writers go with me see what happens on the field talk to people and really when they came back they came back with a a much wider understanding of what it takes to build a story and greater


of what it takes to build a story and greater sensitivity because you know many very often I the frustration one faces is that when you know a cameraman has or a Stringer or a reporter Whoever has taken great trouble to get a story from the ground but it gets killed at the table at the edit table it happens in print also you know where there's a ground report and it's like from some remote part of India uh you know like maybe a naxal uh you know who has surrendered gone back to society started a school of his own has 15 students whom he's teaching and his wife is also joining in it's a human interest story comes in from one very difficult part now the reporter the cameraman would have gone and got it with such great difficulty it never makes it to newspapers it never makes it to the mainstream media it's just not of Interest this is where I feel that especially small town reporters have this problem you know that their stories never get told


this problem you know that their stories never get told yeah I I think when you when you throw people at the deep end and make them do what someone else is doing it also builds empathy they understand what the other person goes through to bring something to the table like you said or or even people in the PCR all all kinds of functions I've tried to really experiment over the past amalgamate people who are writing stories have been told to manage an event and they've done fabulously well and they also feel that they're growing they're not chained to their desk as it were so there's there's a lot of talk that happens at the TV uh you know the whole model of TV is so trp driven and that is why you are facing a credibility problem in the sense that people don't trust television news anymore do you agree with that view I think I agree with that to the extent that that uh in the attempt to go viral we are sometimes making a mockery of ourselves


viral we are sometimes making a mockery of ourselves and while people may be consuming something that has gone has gone virally you'll get the views but then it's a it's a slippery slope then they'll never come back to you for something they will not they will not trust you like you said there's a credibility crisis and all of it stems I feel really bad for reporters who are mocked at when they do something really silly on the on you know your your bathtub btcs and all of those things yeah they're really pushed to deliver and to do something different and so the problem is not with that reporter or that anchor the problem is with the editor who's letting it go on air I I don't want to make a sweeping statements but I think that in the media industry in general and in India in particular we have a leadership crisis more than a credibility crisis okay we are not trying to innovate we are not experimenting neither with the business model nor with the content


neither with the business model nor with the content formats uh I'm I look at memes and WhatsApp forwards and they're they're mocked at all the time what's up but WhatsApp forwards have so much more creativity than say a pollution story the story has not changed ten years later we are telling the same story in the same way but people are coming up with so many better ways to say the same thing on social media so why is that create is that creativity missing in the newsrooms I would not like to believe that I think people sitting at the top don't want to do anything different the pandemic forced us to to sorry to to make some changes in terms of Technology had it not happened maybe we would have we would have kept sending Obi Vans 10 years later to do this I mean we are not experimenting same with business models today or the person who's starting in a newsroom is earning less than your domestic help yeah that's so why would good talent stay yeah and why would they


why would good talent stay yeah and why would they be inspired to do something else uh I've been in this line for 30 years you've also been in this line for two decades those the journalists who were coming to us were people who had taken the civil services not cleared it and then came to journalism in the you know 30 20 years later but now you know journalism schools have mushroomed we have thousands of news channels uh you know legal illegal satellite TV if I if I count the YouTube channels and everybody literally we have doing content Hindi uh Regional languages English there are jobs Galore but nobody stays there is there is a frustration that kids feel uh when they join journalism they're not able to stay on in the profession why is there so much of lack of talent what is it even though there are so many journalists who are being churned out from uh these institutes um people ask what is their growth path and how do you tell the growth path I mean it's


how do you tell the growth path I mean it's it's very slow growth for sure uh the only people who stay on for two three decades are people who are either crazy and really want to do this yeah or people who are not good at it and will not find anything else anywhere yeah as as pathetic as it sounds that's how it is the really good people are moving on because how long are you going to tell them that you will not get weekends off and you will not even get the salary that your MBA cousin is getting for the next 10 years and you will have no work life balance out of question it is out of the question and and for a long time it's it's very thrilling you know to be doing things in The Newsroom to stay very late to chase a story till the very end but beyond a point everyone has emis to pay and everyone has families to look after and you you have to make it worth their while in 20 years I have never heard any


their while in 20 years I have never heard any business team come and say up to Market is recession or no recession we are always in cost cutting mode always I mean I remember going to Ukraine and I thought that um I went with the team of four and this is the Mojo age where a reporter is sent with one phone and one yeah selfie stick so I thought I've come with a big team and we'll do some great stuff and we we I'd like to believe we did we're doing stories every day we were doing a show we were trying to and then I see International Channels with teams of 30 40 people who blocked entire floors in two hotels one where they want to stay because it's a five star and one where the the view is very good because they can create a good frame and I thought there's no way we'll be able to match this because we're always going to be short of money and resources if I may go back to the era of you know uh in the


back to the era of you know uh in the 80s uh the KD of American television networks NBC ABC and all they used to come to India for all the big stories you know like Rajiv Gandhi assassination and those kind of stories and they used to come like that they you know I was working like as a you know a Stringer with them attached to them you know like a gopher that was the word you know who will get the information there was no Google if you remember those days so you have to get information and give them so that they could file their stories but they would come literally with 20 man teams and they would come with gear uh camera gear and all that gear they would book satellite uh costed hundreds of dollars no way that India could match of course we didn't have private television also in those days but what I'm trying to say is that those guys then collapsed under the weight of their own you know inability to budget their news they they shut bureaus across


budget their news they they shut bureaus across the world international news went off their thing they depended on agencies to cover international news they couldn't do it India on the other hand it's been lean and mean because samara's resources that's fine I I get your point you should not overspend at the end of the day it's a business and you have to look at the bottom line and you have to make it work for everyone but I'm saying that we are not we are not ready to stretch the limits of our imagination today a flop actor earns more than the top performing editor in this industry and we are all in the business of content so why is it that we cannot up I I love giving this example a documentary on Chernobyl will be watched on Netflix with a 500 rupee subscription but the same documentary on a TV news channel will not be watched documentaries what the sales team will tell you because we are not investing if you you know what we did in my in my


you you know what we did in my in my show it was resource investment it's very easy to get guests most of whom are not paid uh they're just you know yeah they're not paid and they just come and they give their time and we create content and it takes a lot of effort I'm sure for the anchor to put himself or herself out there every day to discuss a lot of topics and and you know uh it's important way of doing content content yeah but if you're going to if you're going to build one hour of content you need writers you need editors you need uh people who design Graphics you need video that is resource investment yeah so I I think that there are gains to be made and I I think it will make business sense if we create a good product because people are now spoiled for Choice okay see um there was this a whole talk about the amount of influence that uh say a BBC or an Al Jazeera has if you see the number of if you see their


if you see the number of if you see their population of UK right and you compare that with one channel of BBC and the international influence that it has and compare that with India's population we probably have more TV uh you know people who have TVs uh are probably seven or eight times the population of UK and yet we don't have an international Channel even though we have so many domestic channels is it time now for India or Indian channels to invest in making a global Channel you know of of course Beyond was there but it doesn't really have that impact of being you know of of being a mover and shaker like say an Al Jazeera or a BBC I think we are 10 10 20 years late we should have done it then we should definitely if there's an urgent need for us to to do this uh to take control of the narrative to tell our story right and to tell it to the whole world and there is a market you know uh you mentioned Beyond uh by the by the time I left only


Beyond uh by the by the time I left only 40 of our audience was based in India sixty percent was outside India and these were not just nris these were people from all over the world all ethnicities all countries who were engaging with us who were writing to us and and that shows that the world is interested in what we have to say in our pers in our perspective in our point of view I remember earlier this summer uh we were in Dubai and and we were having lunch and we asked for the check and it came with a huge slice of cake and I said I did not order it and so the head chef came and he said this is from the rajapaksas sorry what I'm a Sri Lankan I watch your coverage sitting in Dubai on Sri Lanka from a channel that that's run out of Noida and he says I I really like what you say and this is complementary and so you you strike a chord I think there is so much to be done we're not


think there is so much to be done we're not thinking big not on an Institutional level and not as a country level do you think the government should have done I mean there was this DD International nobody will believe the government language right it may not fly and and see it's a if the government does it then you will say that they're peddling their agenda if they don't do it then they are blamed for not you know supporting at the end of the day if you're talking about free media and a business that you have to create a business model that is going to work yeah that's that's exactly what I said that at the leadership level people are not thinking big enough so why on the other hand if I was to come back to audiences why is it that Indians are not really interested in international news all that much if you watch the debates if you just see Prime Time prime time is rarely anything to do with international news other than Pakistan and that also if they have done something


than Pakistan and that also if they have done something like attacking us or if they are collapsing because of whatever reason you know there's a coup or there is a jalsa or something like that like an Imran Khan issue it's that or else if it is China galwan that's a story Ukraine somehow captured a little bit of news not just because of the Indian students but it did capture a little bit of but other than that international news is just hardly anywhere because we don't do it we don't do it like that you know we I I I think um the Indian audience is more aware and interested and invested in what's happening in the world then then people in a lot of other especially in the West they're very inward looking I also remember reading the study that said that uh people in developing countries are more interested in in global Affairs than people in developed countries who don't want to look Beyond what's happening in their life you know there is a higher chance of an Indian


you know there is a higher chance of an Indian being able to tell which city Falls in which state in the U.S than an American being vice versa yeah correct so we are interested but we have to like I said make that story accessible if you start giving out results of the midterm election without explaining to the viewer the format and how it is different from our elections then beyond a point they lose interest I think Americans only don't understand what their elections are about that's another point but it's so complicated and the results take ever so long uh so they themselves don't know but you're right like you said that there's a lot of ignorance about see that also comes with a great deal of prosperity they don't need to know they don't need to know right whereas in India Indians are very politically aware why because we interact so much or in ordinary Indians need to know police the need to interact is great because they control everything right so that's why but yeah uh so


control everything right so that's why but yeah uh so you think that it's the it's the editors or the owners of Television uh media who are uh you know probably don't have there's a dissonance that they don't understand what the viewers want possibly and they don't want to uh a lot of them are busy copying each other so um you had a successful show in uh Beyond and you know like you were what one saw in social media was like and probably it's them that I realized you know that there was so much of a fan following you had so why did you leave when you were doing so well why at the top then why did you leave it's always better to leave at the top and now you're sounding like no no I left because I thought that uh whatever I wanted to do I had done this um and uh I I Envision for I don't want to sound pompous but but what I'm doing and the team that I'm creating in a certain way and uh if


I'm creating in a certain way and uh if I'm not being able to do that uh to my satisfaction then I don't want to do it and I think uh in that sense I'm lucky that I can just just walk out of something and say and I've done it in the past I don't like something I just say I don't want to do this I will find something else and life has been good and I have struggled and sort of that died as you as you put it sometimes and it's it's been but but I found my path so I was again not enjoying uh what I was doing I I did not like the direction that we were taking I think um I think the the we were we were doing news curation and we had to we had to move to the next step and we had to tell the India story in a more compelling fashion I think somewhere um I I did not I did not see that happening Beyond a point so tell me uh you were talking


Beyond a point so tell me uh you were talking about reporters you know like those who have to do uh wear combat clothes in The Newsroom or they have to uh you know do a flood story with water around them because of Graphics in a bathtub so these are decisions that the reporter can't take yeah what about the anchor can the anchor decide what is the story what is the storyline in all channels because you've worked in several channels how much clout does an anchor hold in deciding uh what should be the storyline and how will I take this forward I think it depends on the anchor okay there are anchors and I'm I'm not saying prime time or non-prime time there are anchors who are very clear about what they want to say and that comes through and then there are TP readers who will not be on the point you know say why is this running and and those are the anchors who who resonate with the audience who the team no no no the ones who who have a clear


no no no the ones who who have a clear point of view there can be disagreement eventually the editorial line holds in most cases I would like to believe but uh in my career I've seen anchors who have gone up to the editor and said I'm not okay it happened with me I remember once um I always like to write what I'm going to say in my words even though there are very good copy editors I like to I like I feel more confident okay if I have done the typing and uh and so I remember what I I wrote um I went to the studio and then while I was reading of the teleprompter I saw that somebody had changed my lines and uh said very clearly that this is why you should not vote for such and such party wow I would never say that right and so when the and and halfway through the sentence I corrected myself and I said something else and I ended it the way I wanted and then I went out and I asked who has


and then I went out and I asked who has done this and they said the editor changed the lines and I went to that editor and I said that without consulting yes and uh this was before we on I have to say um and I said you will not do this and he was taken by surprise because I don't think he was used to being challenged and I said this is not done and I will not accept it and if you disagree with what I'm saying you have to tell me and you have to convince me and yeah I did not stay there for very long after that but but this happens yeah that's what I wanted to say is this a one-off thing or does it happen very often with people I think it also depends on I mean people don't mess with people who call them out and and yeah say that that you won't do this and it's hard right because you're already on air yeah and you're reading and mid-sentence to change the sentence to realize somebody has played


to change the sentence to realize somebody has played funny yeah yeah the fight in The Newsroom before is a different matter but on air these kind of things that could happen uh those yeah and you know the the other thing is that um the I just saw uh I think it was yeah Rahul shiv Shankar uh said on air that you know um he took on when remember he McAdams yeah that thing that you know where he put the wrong name and he said he took the Flack at that time but what had happened was that whoever was feeding in the the name in the teleprompter did the mistake right now you can throw that reporter under the bus or the teleprompter operator who throw that person under the bus or you can take on the Flack yourself he says I took on that as a mistake that I made uh but this is a more serious thing which you're talking about where the editorial line is being tampered and there's a lot of difference if you take the credit


there's a lot of difference if you take the credit for the great lines that your team writes and for all the work that goes behind so you take the Flack also but when when someone has deliberately changed something because they think that you are not going to apply your mind and just read whatever is written is problematic okay and see there are many times that handouts come from governments and I'm not talking about now I'm talking about over the years handouts come that this is what you should speak today this is what is here earlier when it was India radio that you know government officers used to read the news the government and today when I hear people saying oh that was such lovely times there was no noise there was no cacophony we got the news clean uh where we had you know Salma Sultan reading it out and things after telling them that was the only news and that was written by government officers and you believed it that that's the only news that happened Pradhan


that that's the only news that happened Pradhan mantriage that's all no question yeah right today you're hearing it all you're hearing different points of view so it's noisy but at least you're getting different points of view so now when um it changed but still governments put pressure on newsrooms on editors put this out how much pushback does it happen in newsrooms you know against the government line uh so I've been out of the Congress BJP uh thing for a while now uh and uh the subjects that I dealt with uh we we willingly took I wouldn't say the government line but the India line and that sort of worked uh I think there is I think there is pushback I remember this is more than 10 years back I think [Music] um some Ministry calling up saying what is running on your ticker and so we all first of all we joked saying that if the minister is watching article then who's doing his job but those things used to happen and we would argue


those things used to happen and we would argue and sometimes not run it or or run both sides of what was going on and and and those things did did happen it's a known thing I mean the the joke or the the sarcasm used to be that there was a certain politician very powerful politician who was known as bureau chief who's who the acronym given to him was bureau chief because one he was very close to uh many senior journalists but the agenda setting was done at 5 PM in the in that child and they were deciding which anchor is going to do with story yeah those things were also happening this anchor is not good so there has always been pressure and especially Finance ministers on business channels you know there was a time there are some Ministries where you can't go against like defense is one of them I mean you will not get access yeah if you question but then you also have to see what is it's it's all very murky you know sometimes people question just


all very murky you know sometimes people question just for the sake of questions so if your question defense I've seen many times that you question and you're considered an anti-nation you're dubbed immediately yeah that one defense beat only is done by uh journalists by reporters who are Sons and Daughters of uh army officers the brats do it and uh they call themselves brats I'm not calling them but again any questioning uh even the services get very annoyed and label you and don't understand that questioning is something that a journalist has to do yeah it's not there's an anti-national bent of mind but do you feel that there's there are other beats in journalism where this happens also where they just shut access immediately I think yes yeah isn't it yeah I mean worst case scenario they'll not send a spokesperson to your channel yeah that's another thing that happens then they'll say you're not giving our side of the story but you're not giving your side of the


story but you're not giving your side of the story yourself yeah so it's become a and I I think it's a healthy fight because because no matter which side says what the fact is that channels and news platforms of all descriptions are operating in this country they're being trolled they're being questioned they're being investigated some of them but they're all running yeah so there is space for everyone and all kinds of opinion and points of view so tell me palki do you have do you think that uh uh that there are enough firewalls in place in TV channels because it's live TV right immediately stuff goes on air are they enough firewalls to um to filter out fake news and viral news which are you know not credible increasingly not no no no I think uh I think the viral editor is setting the agenda now for newsrooms purely yeah and sometimes I feel that other Twitter Channel because we are all looking at what is trending can we all send out an appeal to Elon Musk


we all send out an appeal to Elon Musk I think I don't know so there's a viral editor no it's a it's like a whatever is viral whatever is viral it's a it's wordplay whatever is viral is basically setting the agenda today this story is going viral so everyone wants to do the 8 PM or 9 pm debate on the story which is viral increasingly after covet I've seen one newspaper reading as a as a physical thing is not happening so you get your news from social media and usme your bias comes in because what comes in in your Google feed in your Facebook feed in your Twitter feed is your the bias which is then your mind that gets reflected whereas when you open a newspaper you're seeing various things we are consuming the bias of the newspaper then of the newspaper that's also a point so some social media star is a front page story just go this is but he is on the front page why there is so much else that


the front page why there is so much else that is happening in this country because the newspaper editor thinks that this is a front page hmm so there are all kinds of biases that we but see you know negotiate it's a it it's also a vicious circle because I have to see I've seen some of these experts who come on television and uh they found their way into political parties they became spokespersons also they were sitting in social media and basically with a little bit of Gyan they didn't do they didn't they didn't have a body of work behind them right but you Troll and you make these smart alec comments you get more followers more and more followers than what you're saying is becoming a hashtag you you start doing that there's nothing that you've done before or after so you it that happens now because you've got a x number of followers you make it to the TV screen you come there because you know ah people will watch retweets so you're on


know ah people will watch retweets so you're on TV screen once you're on TV screen you get called to conferences and seminars and then sponsors we'll give you sponsorship political party sit up and say aha very interesting he or she speaks very well so let's make them ideology but that's the same with film stars no film stars who become netas I mean what have they done but they have influenced Nita's Beyond a point are influencers who commit themselves to doing good work I think and I don't know how many of them end up doing it somehow we don't expect much from our natas but we expect more from journalists at least we think that actually those guys then when they become spokesperson they say social media television news research negative you know I just feel increasingly that it these uh tick tockers uh influencers they are your journalists today they are the ones uh you know who haven't gone through the rigors of Journalism but they've become your experts they are the


but they've become your experts they are the ones who are giving Yarn yeah on television so then I quite understand when people say that the TV journalism model is breaking down or has broken down so do you see any hope in the future see I I think mass communication has become a two-way street now right the viewer is telling you in real time what they're watching what they like what they don't like bouquets brick bats everything is coming as you read the news you can see the YouTube comments a lot of which are nonsense but a lot of them are also active feedback so um I I think that people who are serious about being in the business and serious about telling the stories that they want to tell Will Survive and Thrive everybody has to make that effort every day you can't be cynical you can't be saying that oh Pakistan does it all the time so this time if they have fired some rocket it's okay no it's a story every day you have to I don't


a story every day you have to I don't know if I'm making sense to you I think that I think that uh we are in a phase where where the real stars will shine and those who are not pulling their weight are going to be like it's like you know when the stone pelting used to happen in Kashmir so The Newsroom gets tired right yeah and I think no you have to go there you have to put a camera out there you it is a story and then when the stone painting stopped yeah even then it's a story it's a story you still put your camera out there and you wait and watch you have to be excited about it every day yes do you have to end as new as editors we have to tell our you know the newbies who come in or the new journalists who come in that the fact that there are no stone pelters every Friday is a story so you the cameraman also says it Demands a lot of commitment huh you know you have to be


of commitment huh you know you have to be there every day and uh I remember being told by one of my bosses something very good that that to build a relationship with your viewer if you say that you're going to be there at nine o'clock be there at nine o'clock come watch me uh that's the promise that you've made to them they have not made that promise to you they will watch one day not watch for three days then again come in but they know that you'll be there when a big story happens they'll know where to go and it takes a lot of commitment and after all these years I still can't understand how there are anchors who walk in half an hour before their show just put on makeup and sit and start reading so you still have to be a little nervous before your show you still have to at the end of a show I mean we've had so many discussions every day saying this story did not go the way we want you have to be excited yeah you


way we want you have to be excited yeah you have to be nervous you have to be you have to challenge yourself constantly only then will you survive and I think the reason for your success also is that you respect your audience uh I've I've seen that that anchors who don't who don't who are not talking down to their audience they are the ones who who resonate you know kind of a thing that matters isn't it I I think so I think people are giving you an entry into their rooms yes you know at nine o'clock when they're sitting with their family or doing whatever they're doing you know time is very valuable if you're giving me your time then I better make it worth your time spoke about bouquets and brick bats I now want to come into this which I spoke with navika and I spoke with arnab also when he was here um the mental well-being of uh women journalists and even men I guess so much hate comes in on the way


I guess so much hate comes in on the way of Love also but hate too comes in so much of trolling happens uh how do you take it I'll give you a personal example when kovit happened um and there was a a kill list you know where people put in names of people TV news anchors who should die of coveta and my name was also there in that uh thing I just took it as forget it how does it matter I got admitted to hospital when I when the second Delta wave happened and uh I was fighting it out I'm in hospital Rohit died uh in the first day that I was in the hospital he died and somewhere it hit me uh so bad I can imagine you know I was like oh my God they were making a kill list and Rohit is gone how many more will go stupid maybe that it shouldn't affect me but maybe it was the medicines you know I mean they they put you on steroids and all those things it affects


you on steroids and all those things it affects us right we may say that it doesn't affect us but it affects us yeah and increasingly I worry that uh although my children don't have access to these platforms but they have friends people talk people people say all sorts of things people want to uh comment on your life on your family on your journalism if you disagree with me disagree with me on subjects don't make it personal but that's why they're called trolls and uh I have a policy to I know that you give it back as good as you get it I try I try to not respond yeah I've seen I don't because I am I I don't think I want to give them even that satisfaction maybe that's a good way I will get to being that because I I don't want I I cannot stoop to their level and I don't see what their problem and and what amazes me is how somebody says something and a whole ecosystem swoops down yeah on you and some


ecosystem swoops down yeah on you and some of those people are people you've worked with some of those people are people you don't even know so my first reaction always is why you yeah like where you're doing this conversation in your head in my head and why you is in your head you don't write I never write it because I'm like okay if this is this is what you've chosen I've seen friends do this people I used to call friends it's very hurtful yeah because I all you can always pick up the phone and call and say why you did not agree with this or what you found wrong with it but your idea is not to question me your idea is to get followers by Stone pelting on social media at me so I will not give you that satisfaction fellow journalists do that fellow journalists do that you know there's this new trend of people reviewing your stories on YouTube oh yeah people do that in the UK I did something on hijab and then two people are sitting and


on hijab and then two people are sitting and playing my video and critiquing it and playing the second clip and critiquing it and then they're getting like I don't know how many lakh views so in my own way I started telling myself that that they want to get views and followers by association you should not give them that hmm they just they just want to engage with you and this is this is their way of staying relevant they haven't reported the hijab issue but they're reporting on the reporting yeah yeah so that that happens all the time you you do anything or what you will see it on on YouTube even in India it's there it's the so-called fact Checkers yeah they're not fact checking so many of them are sitting and actually just this is and a lot of these people uh you know say all sorts of use all sorts of terms and pejoratives for journalists are themselves people who once wanted to do things in newsrooms and did not deliver or did not


things in newsrooms and did not deliver or did not survive and so it's it's a case of sour grapes it's their problem they comment and I've seen senior women journalists also commenting on attire or women journalists and you know it it's hurtful it is and women get it more I'm sure you have also you know Guys these are what please listen to the content no they're not listening to content it's how you're tired even when I do this YouTube thing I'm sure there'll be a whole thing that um because a whole lot of thing is that yeah you know it's it's about presentation a lot of these rules apply only to women we are supposed to look a certain way we are supposed to uh um if we are too soft and smile too much then we are diffident if we are too aggressive then we are rude um it's it's there's never a good fit um and there are rules about I uh I think over the past few years one by one I've thrown


over the past few years one by one I've thrown all the rules out of the window I want to wear jhumkas with a jacket I will wear it you don't like it don't watch it but whose definition of presentable is it and what what is good you are senior enough now to take these decisions like I I said this to navika also like you know that now some of us are in this uh you know position of seniority where we can take this decision so we can make the changes in our newsrooms we can we can send out women in Conflict zones it costs more to send a woman out in Conflict Zone this is what I want to tell you know I appreciate channels which send out women uh into conflict zones to do reporting because it means double the culture absolutely right it means uh that separate room cameras otherwise they can share a room it means that you know you can't travel at night and if you're traveling at night you put a guard with that person if there's


night you put a guard with that person if there's a whole lot of things that go stuff that at my time I couldn't do in many places nowadays it's easier because we guys can take that decision did you at uh you know in your positions I are you did you take that decision that even if a woman anchor doesn't fit a particular standard which most channels that you will continue to fight her cause I have I have and uh there was a situation when um when I was told to take somebody off air because of weight and um and she was miserable and she'd gone through some some issues health-wise and she said I'm working on it and I knew she's working on it but this happens uh I remember when I was expecting my first child and I I you know told my boss about it I was told but you have to come back in shape quickly and the congratulations followed later and he was not a mean person but it just this is how they are programmed


person but it just this is how they are programmed hmm and I do not like it yeah you know so we go through so many things I mean uh also there are so many departments and newsrooms which still have male bosses they don't understand uh why is it that that when a child Falls sick you I have been in a situation where I remember uh my daughter was I think a year old and she had an acute ear infection and um she was crying and I left for work very early when my children were very young and I have always believed in them being independent and everyone in the family sort of divides the chores and handles it takes a village yeah but but on that day she was being very clingy and I said I have to go to work and everyone said okay she'll be fine but somewhere I I went there with that and it doesn't happen with me very often I I can be very dispassionate about some things and I'm like this is a project I have to


and I'm like this is a project I have to do this my work is as important as everything else but I reached office I got ready for the show um and the headlines ruled and after the first headline I started crying okay and um because I was not on air and the team was very good and the PCR guys they went into a break and I said I I know she's fine but I just don't like being here and then I nobody said anything even now I think you're joking when you're drinking it's very sad it's very and and you know for the next four weeks I worried that I may have appeared as less committed to my work because I did this because no man would ever sit in a studio and cry and say I have a sick child at home and then you over compensated I'm sure you try to do that it's very sad and and you have you seen that sabita ad where this woman goes for a job and you know and she says the interviewer


job and you know and she says the interviewer says okay is this your first time and she said yeah when I told them I'm pregnant they stopped giving me any projects so I'm saying that these things still exist I I was reading yesterday's newspaper the UN parity report we are still far away from gender parity salaries salaries all sorts of things so it is not a Level Playing Field whether it's assignments whether it's promotion whether it's uh giving you the space of people who do karobar are promoted faster I don't do it so then I will never be explained this now those who don't know yeah karubar is a bar in a car in the simplest of terms after your shift ends you stand outside in the parking lot uh put your glasses on the roof of your car drink chat gossip and then go home a it is unsafe because a lot of people are drinking and driving this is after The Newsroom yes bulletin yes and it happens it's it's part of The Newsroom


it happens it's it's part of The Newsroom culture I believe and it's a great place to bond I have never done it in two decades and there was a time when I felt that I'm not going to that smoking room and I'm not doing karubar I'm being left out everywhere but I couldn't get myself to do it so I'm saying that that that there are we have broken a lot of barriers but there are still boys clubs in even when you do beat journalism you've done foreign beats you know this right that um there are times where you hang around or the men hang around not women but the male reporters can hang around in bars for long hours with people get the news out smoking rooms as you said and women dividend I guess cannot do that at least in our culture it's hard in America or in the in UK in Europe it's okay you know but specially women who have children back home then you make that choice that you've got to go back so you also you


that you've got to go back so you also you can't do that for me honestly I know a lot of people struggle with that I have never had problems with long R's or weird shifts I have I have very good backup at home my problem is that men still get the wrong message a lot of times and if my choices between uh appearing a little snobbish and reserved and appearing too open and too friendly then I'd take the first one I don't want anyone to get the wrong message I I'm really not interested in anybody yeah I want to do my work and do it well you remember the metoo movement and all you think that men have learned after that that these are the boundaries you don't I don't think so no I don't think so and and me too is a you know we in the media tell everyone else how to conduct themselves this is what the society should be like this is how judges should be selected this is how Neta should be we hold truth to power


is how Neta should be we hold truth to power but we don't face our own truths newsrooms are full of predators and some of those who were let go of are back in positions of Power are being legitimized in more ways than one and what are we doing about it you walked out at one point of time I'm not going to mention names but uh I think many people know you walked out when you couldn't take that um a person who is labeled a predator um do they come with a certain learning when they come back after they have gone through the you know the shame of being called a predator I don't know I don't I don't think it matters I have you have you have wronged so many people and uh why should you get the benefit of the route now that is one and second I don't think they change fundamentally this person you're talking about someone told me that she was his subordinate in a newspaper and she went to him and said that you know


and she went to him and said that you know this is my script and he said your lines have to be tighter than your jeans you get away with it how do you get away with that and what you do to the to the confidence of that that girl and she left media as it as it happened but but what are we doing honestly and we let them be and we give them space because uh a lot of us don't want to to be branded as trouble you know you you raise a stink in one place and 10 other Newsroom leaders will say okay this one is bawalia but that's the word they use that's what happens you know everything is a problem yeah person because she won't take it she won't just brush it off yeah but um you know it happens often um there was a case when uh reporter said you know this was quite some time ago when she said that a certain politician you know rubbed his shoulder once in a wrong manner then rubbed the arm


once in a wrong manner then rubbed the arm in a wrong manner should we take it out you know so I asked her I said do you want what do you want to do to go through the um thing I call up the politician I take it up we can issue a letter and all that and she said no she said I just want to let you know um but uh I want you to know that this politician is like this so don't put young reporters on the job who don't know how to handle I will handle the man on my own and she handed the man on her on her own terms and also we sent out a message that listen watch out because what you did this time you're letting it go because the reporter doesn't want to go forward with it but be careful otherwise next time it becomes an issue now that happens because also she knows Kim hamisco reporter you know she got a sympathetic year not every time that happens it doesn't happen because I


time that happens it doesn't happen because I think um I think you would empathize with what what they go through also a lot of times it's non-verbal a lot of times you don't know how to uh I I remember uh about 15 years back I went to the studio after a big interview had just finished with a very prominent minister and the studio had different sets so I had to do the news from another set and the editor is asking the minister would you like tea or coffee he's not replying he's not replying because he's staring and it was a big Newsroom and he kept staring and I felt violated without him having said anything without him having done anything how do you quantify that and what do you say that he was looking at me yeah but you feel terrible yeah and these things happen and and I'm sure a lot of reporters on the field go through this yeah what are they going to what are the mechanisms we all have these vishaka guidelines Porsche Etc


we all have these vishaka guidelines Porsche Etc no we are we are far away from making it a safe uh place for women to be a place where they can Thrive just on the basis of Merit how what do we do now next what should what should Newsroom managers what should news media owners editors how do we go forward awareness right how do we go forward it that mentality changes or what do you put in place because it's not enough to put laws and rules you're saying no I think the younger uh the younger Workforce is much more aware and open when you interact with people who have uh who have become journalists in the last two to three years they are much more open to uh respecting boundaries they understand uh the women are much more vocal and they say I will not put up with this um I think uh this is a generational shift I think there is more awareness but as Leaders we have to facilitate it because because people in teams take cues from how


it because because people in teams take cues from how their leader behaves if if if somebody in my team calls me and says I'm feeling depressed and I can't explain why but I don't think I'll be able to come to work and write today one way of handling it is saying okay don't come but don't make it a habit or not giving that person the best assignments from there on correct the other way of saying is that how do you want me to help you it's okay I have been through this I know a lot of people who have good days and bad days everyone does in fact and it's okay take your time and let me know how I can help you what travels they will feel more comfortable you have to create that culture that culture building has to happen gradually but it has to happen consciously did you have any boss who did that with you that empathy yeah you did I did you're lucky then yeah yeah right I was I was really uh supported and allowed to


I was I was really uh supported and allowed to grow and also I think it also happens with uh with bosses who are not insecure because male bosses women bosses both both I've had I've had some good very good mentors okay let me get to uh finally let me get to when are you coming on air everybody wants to know this how can I do a show with you without knowing when are you coming on a back on it very soon okay in what role you can't tell this whole secretive thing we are in stealth mode as we say no we are building something we are building a team we are putting together a big team I know and it's a great space to be in because every day you read headlines about people being laid off and it's very unfortunate and at a time like this we're once again swimming against the tires you put it um and and there are more jobs uh we are looking for people who are talented let me make this pitch on your show who


talented let me make this pitch on your show who can uh who are passionate about news and who are not afraid to be thrown at the deep end in any role so um I'm working on it um I want to do the show when I'm ready when I know it's going to work I know that that as people who it takes it takes a lot of adjustment to you know there are days when and so much news has happened ever since I left you want to tell the story I'm like yeah I want to be there and I would have said it in this way but uh it has been a great learning experience for me in patience in in understanding when the time is right and when I a lot of people write to me and every time I put a photo on Instagram which is nice but I want to tell you and everyone else that you'll be back I will be back it'll be a better show hopefully and uh we will put it out when we are confident that it'll work but don't


when we are confident that it'll work but don't you get this whole lot of RTG kind of advice that out of sight out of mind my mother tells me all the time you know somewhere you build it I'll do something else but you don't get it from your mom that archbot tired oh all the time I don't like these clothes who got you this thing uh why are you wearing Chenille you know which make which fashion thousand everything was so velvet like that so you get it from your mom too all the time yeah yeah and do people ask you how you manage um you know since both you and your husband both of you are journalists you'll have different points of view and you work in I mean you worked in two different channels which had you know kind of contrary views editorial Lines no but we have a so my father-in-law was also a journalist correct yes and legendary and my mother-in-law is very aware and sometimes she ends up educating all of us and saying no


ends up educating all of us and saying no you are wrong okay so it's a good healthy sort of a mix and now my children also have an opinion on most things and they're like we don't want to discuss this or when I try to tell them something don't be preachy this is not gravitas time don't do this so so those things happen all the time but I think uh it's it's even most most of us enter a room they're saying do you get that do you feel that that after politicians probably in the pecking order we are disliked the most because they feel a pontificate maybe yeah but I usually don't uh don't no you don't I don't launch into uh this thing unless somebody is really prodding me and maybe Beyond a point I tell them that watch my show please don't ask me please I'm sure they'll ask you this they do that yeah and if you don't say then they'll say but they they do it all the time and somebody has even


they do it all the time and somebody has even asked me do you write your own thing who writes those things for you yeah I have a very good team yeah so I'm sure you get that a lot because there is a lot of talk that anchors bottom of the brain chain that that they actually just read what has been given to them it and sometimes it is true yeah it is true that to look pretty is enough in some channels and to present it enough to present it convincingly even if they are not your thoughts is enough and sometimes that's what is required yeah the anchor might have thoughts of her own but it's not asked of you yeah it's given to you and you have to speak it did it and did anybody try to do that to you I mean that was that one instance you did but what about when you were Junior um oh yes somebody even wrote a PTC for me I think go there go to widget talk and say this I may not remember it no no you


say this I may not remember it no no you have to say this and I will write the package then you only do the PTC why are you sending me no you do it so initially one sort of played along sometimes some of those stories were um I I've had all when I started in Hindustan times I remember I went to the editor before I got the position and I said I want to comment on Foreign Affairs and I was still in college and you know this Iraq war is happening and this is happening and bahut patiently he listened to me and then he said okay I have an assignment for you do a story on dandiya Knights in Jaipur like what did I just tell you I didn't say that obviously but he said no no do and make a funny piece okay write something nice and funny quirky I wrote something rejected it he rejected it ten times okay it's not funny enough and I kept rewriting it but that was the time when I think I was really


that was the time when I think I was really young and I I thought okay I will I will write something that he likes and then it made to the Anchor story but yeah you did also today this is what I tell young reporters that we are doing stories which we want today both stories the first story that a television story that I went out was a funeral it will but if if I did something with somebody uh the same thing with someone today I think after the fourth rejection I'd get a call from HR saying this harassment happening in your team so you can't do it now they don't work out I think you can't you can't reject a story ten times and say you know I don't like it what do you not like it I don't like it you can't do that they will come to if you I change lines all the time in whatever I did and then people would walk up to me and say what in it did you have an issue with and I had to have an


have an issue with and I had to have an answer you can't say that at least I don't I mean I don't like so I believe it's the same with teachers you can't since you have young kids you can't slash a page and say redo yes why why what was wrong was the headline wrong of not headline well titled wrong was the intro wrong was the conclusion wrong was it too long word limits figure it out yourself redo now you can't do that because you will hurt the sentiments of the child so just the same way I guess reporters have to be uh you know Molly cortled a little bit probably a little bit now yeah allowed you can't you have to be tender and gentle yeah I I at least that's my model I don't want to I also feel that a lot of people uh because I came from another city and I was alone and I was trying to uh make room for myself in uh very big world that is very cruel to people who come from smaller


is very cruel to people who come from smaller towns or from different towns and come into television media for me it was I think it was uh it was a very hard reset for me um I also came from a family where um when they gave they gave me the best that they could uh but my parents did not talk to each other in English or to us we are from Rajasthan and if they spoke very chaste Hindi I thought I'd done something wrong that that's how it was and very very basic very basic middle class upbringing and suddenly you're thrown into this mix of people who I learned from a lot but uh I did not have that exposure I did not have uh parents who were ifs officers who'd seen the world um I did not know their references my father just had one rule no TV no music that so that's that's I do not know what movies they were talking about and the new contacts no like uh foreign beat was all about Daddy's yeah friend and


foreign beat was all about Daddy's yeah friend and mummies so you you you're always lost and you were trying to find something for yourself the only thing that that really helped me was reading I have always been a reader and um and so I have I I knew theoretically most of the things they were talking about I'd not experienced them recently a woman journalist you know told me about uh when she was working in an English news channel and you know she she also did not come from privileged background or an elite background and she said that it's hard in uh in Delhi because uh if you if you didn't come from that setup because he says after after the bulletin was over or after everybody oh let's go to the oberoi coffee shop let's go to 360. let's go to Matan let's go you know so oh we'll go to Gymkhana they're all members their fathers were members their grandfathers were members we'll go for a swim here we'll go for to the gym here


swim here we'll go for to the gym here and they bonded like that and if you didn't belong to that Clique yeah upward trajectory didn't happen in your career yeah yeah so it is harder it was at least but that's not the case anymore isn't it it's become The Newsroom has become more egalitarian like that isn't it it has I think people are not uh people don't think that it's it's necessarily a bad thing that they're Outsiders I think uh I see a lot more confidence in younger people that they're not they just say that okay I am from such and such place I don't know this hmm and uh that's okay so I guess that's that's a good change yeah also the internet has opened up the world so much more now that people are generally more aware they're not as when I came I I learned a lot of things for the first time while I was here right this was 2005. although the internet was still there but yeah in the


although the internet was still there but yeah in the 90s I remember uh actually conducting uh uh we went out to a restaurant with 10 of my reporters and uh teaching them because they were going to go to do foreign beat stories so they would I didn't want them to it wasn't as if I was looking at them you know it's okay it would be an Indian we can eat with a hand but I didn't want them to feel small yeah you know I didn't want uh for Indian Foreign Service Officer to giggle with another reporter that is so we went out to a restaurant and I told him and then and then you know there was this one reporter who went on to join the BBC at one point of time who said foreign traveling abroad from my uh Seven Generations but then equip your reporter to do that you know but like today I've seen that reporters don't mind they have the confidence like you know we'll manage that we don't need to conduct this classes anymore to teach


need to conduct this classes anymore to teach these uh you know these nice cities or etiquette or something like that they are learning on the job with great deal of Panache yeah I would say much more confidence than probably we had when we started also I think there's a there's a shift of very um at least I can feel that in society that we are more as as a people we are more confident of our place in the world and we are not shy of saying that okay this is not what I do you know uh I always say G because to to somebody who's older or up because this is part of my culture I'm not American I cannot call my uncle by his first name and think it's okay even if I have a great bond with him that's not who I am so I've accepted who I am and I will say what I have to say Sir ma'am G I know it's the corporate culture my name is what about the workplace would you encourage young you know students


the workplace would you encourage young you know students to take up journalism get to television newsrooms print newsrooms yes I think I think bright people who have who want to really do something good interesting creative should take it up and I know the onus is on on leaders to also change the workplace and make it more you know incentivize it for for uh the younger lot to join but but this has to be a collaborative effort and uh I I see the pushback that they can mount when they don't agree to something me too is one example and there have been other stories where uh people who've been three months into The Newsroom have come and said we have to do this we have to do this because we feel so passionately about it so we need more of those people and I think uh I think we'll all be better off I look forward to seeing this new Avatar of uh Newsroom uh of a channel and of you as soon as possible we want you back on that thank you thank you


we want you back on that thank you thank you thank you so much for coming on the podcast lovely talking to you I have not had an interview like this I don't know what I said okay but I said whatever came to my screen it was great Straight From the Heart thank you so much thank you thank you for watching or listening in to Ani podcast with Smitha prakash to like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have heard or seen this on namaste [Music] thank you [Music]


the Pakistani people have never seen victory in their lives and I'm telling you this is very important Imran Khan has them believing that he has he has this magic wand you know Imran Khan you see the problem in Pakistan is that their mindset has been poisoned against India because of the textbooks in government schools five-year-old kid who's in school he is taught he is taught that who's your enemy um that is Pakistan sitting on the water tanker drunk and telling the world's nuclear weapons and they've been doing it successfully in below you can't imagine the agony of the parents the brothers and the sisters when people have been taken away the world will be a safer place without Pakistan foreign welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today my guests are Mr tilak deveshar and major gaurav Arya two Pakistan experts Mr diveshar is the author of three widely acclaimed books on Pakistan and has also edited three books on Pakistan for the Vivekananda International Foundation


three books on Pakistan for the Vivekananda International Foundation his new book is on the pashtuns also on the podcast is gaurav Arya who's an Indian army veteran and is the founder of the chanakya Forum he's a public speaker who you would have seen on many TV debates and on social media thank you very much Mr diveshwar thank you gaurav for coming today and talking to us so uh this is going to be a very interesting conversation I'm sure regarding Pakistan I'll begin with you uh Mr deser you've written this book on Pakistan which I'm going to get to shortly but first I want to ask you about the events the current events which are happening in Pakistan is very interesting because uh in in the years that I have been following Pakistan I've never seen the kind of demonstrations that are going on right now you know posters against uh against the Pakistan Army them going and uh attacking or you know the core commanders house huge crowds going for a civilian it's all


house huge crowds going for a civilian it's all for Imran Khan these are these are supporters of Imran Khan and so for a civilian cause uh which is for restoration of him to become Prime Minister supposedly that's the cause attacking the Pakistan Army this is something which is absolutely new how do you see it you you're such an avid Pakistan Watcher how do you see these events first of all Smitha thank you so much for inviting me to your show Even though this has been a not been in existence for too long it's become extremely popular thank you so I feel honored and a privilege to come that you've invited me you see two things have happened in Pakistan to understand the background of what is happening Imran Khan was removed as prime minister through a democratic process of the vote of no confidence but his ego does not accept that he could be removed he feels insulted so since April when he was removed till now he has remained in the Limelight galvanized


now he has remained in the Limelight galvanized the bosses and using a false narrative instead of as a politician we will come back tomorrow he has not accepted that so he uses false Narrative of an American conspiracy and tapped into the deep anti-americanism in Pakistan one second before you explain this more uh there are some uh viewers some uh some listeners who may not understand this concept of the American narrative or the the false narrative if you could just slightly explain this what happened so um he claims that a official of the U.S state Department threatened the Pakistan ambassador in Washington that in case Imran Khan is not removed relations with the U.S will deteriorate and cases removed you know certain beneficial things would happen and this Imran Khan said was sent to the Ambassador centers of the telegram or a cipher document to forward then he pulled it out and waved it in a meeting in a public meeting in March this is the American conspiracy the Americans wanted me out because I said


American conspiracy the Americans wanted me out because I said no to their bases I went to Russia and in a host of other things is a deep rooted anti-americanism in Pakistan and he's managed to tap into that to that he's added anti-army anti-establishment again it's a it's a very popular thing too so this has been his so this is one thing that has happened in Pakistan so how is this uh thing uh of you know that there is you are saying this uh deep rooted anti-americanisms these are the pillars like you know India has you have we have the pillars of democracy uh where we have the executive the Judiciary and uh uh you know the media also the fourth pillar but uh in Pakistan it was these three pillars so up anti-americanism because Pakistani leaders have always milked anti-americanism to get more money from America okay if you recall in the case of Musharraf he created this scare that if I don't protect you there will be a takeover of the islamists


you there will be a takeover of the islamists so the but for the domestic audience they will keep criticizing the Americans though they were willing to do anything the Americans want so that's why there is anti-americanism and not from now are we saying anti-americanism has been there for a long time so Imran Khan was installed by the Army where did things sour between him and the Army is it in October last year when General bajwa wanted to post Fez amid was DJI Isis core Commander because in case he was to be in contention for the Army chief he had to command a Corps so he wanted to push him out in October Imran Khan for reasons that are not very clear or people hint at it and these are non-professional reasons didn't want to let go of asameet and he wanted he said no we'll he should continue for some more time and things like that so then bajwa said look he just has to go and this was the understanding and the issue of


go and this was the understanding and the issue of the orders brand Khan didn't sign on the orders so it kept pulling pulling pulling November then sometimes I think in towards end of November because 29th November 22 bajwa retired so if fairs have to be in contention he had to do a core at least for one year before that so finally Imran Khan relented now you see in Pakistan the Army has favorite politicians but they will never allow a politician to have favorite generals and that's when the institutional interest of the army came in and they said nothing of the sort we are not going to allow that the politician to choose which Journal goes where and you know you can't interfere in the chain of command in the postings that's how relation started deteriorating with them why is it so important to have your man as the isi chief foreign for a prime minister Imran Khan it was critical why because as um put it very uh in a very Punjabi way either the Army was


in a very Punjabi way either the Army was even changing his nappies he didn't know how to change his nappies so the day-to-day management of parliament of putting together his majority putting together his Coalition all was managed by the isi all the the bills that are to be passed the election of the Senate chairman everything was done by the Army therefore he wanted somebody by the army or by the isi see uh let's clarify this here isi reports the Prime Minister technically the DJ isi selected by the Prime Minister but because he is is serving officer okay there is no way he can go against the wishes of the army Chief only once I think when Benazir Bhutto she appointed this uh elephant as the djisa all along the DJI Isis have been with the consent of the army Chief so tell me uh in the pack on top and then uh isi Chiefs you see in popular uh films and all these things that just a picture no it's the Army Chief and


that just a picture no it's the Army Chief and the co-commanders okay you know the nine co-commanders are that is the college get leadership Commander is the most important is reports to him plus also he uh the units facing India fcna and things that's all commanded by the pinky so this is one element of the equation okay that is Imran Khan the second equation is retires on 29th November foreign government so he is putting pressure on this government too postpone the appointment of the army Chief till after the elections he hopes to win the election and appoint the Army Chief and he's told bajwa I'll give you an extension till such time as the elections are held that is one part of it the other part of it is that he does not want this government to appoint the senior most research General that is Asim munir as the Army Chief because there is no love lost between nebran Khan and Asi munir was djisi and within eight months Imran Khan got rid of


and within eight months Imran Khan got rid of him for reasons against that were not professional so he got rid of asimuni within eight months of being dgisi and appointed Fez within a state so there is a panga there is a conduct between ASE munir and Imran Khan and Imran Khan feels that if Asim munir is appointed to the Army Chief by Shabbat sharif's government then the next three years when he's going to be Army Chief Imran Khan will be in the wilderness okay so that is the hurry for him to ensure that elections are announced the new Army Chief is appointed only by the new government and not by this government okay I'm going to come to you uh gaurav you are you're quite a legend in Pakistan you know all the memes that are made on you where your face has been taken and jinnah's cap has been made and then and you're called the father of the nation in Pakistan you've been hanged metaphorically several times in Pakistan for all your


metaphorically several times in Pakistan for all your views on it so I'm going to get to the social media part of it but before that I want to ask you what I asked Mr divesha the same question is how do you view what is happening in Pakistan these days does it surprise you at all uh and you know like there are people like sushant Serene and all who says which is going and you know demonstrating or attacking the house of in Peshawar of the core Commander so what do you how do you see all this happening uh thank you for inviting me Smitha when it when it happened you know for the first time I could not believe that such a thing is happening in Pakistan because uh like you said the Three A's that is what we have that is the steady diet that we've been brought upon that you know Allah America and the Army but uh I think what is happening is a uh this is a fight for sovereignty also uh overall


this is a fight for sovereignty also uh overall sovereignty of who who controls Pakistan and who controls the future of Pakistan that is on the face of it like Mr devasha very very correctly said you know it's also a race to appoint the new Army chief because while every Democrat in Pakistan might speak about democracy but all of them have been appointed uh by the army or the creation of the army creation of Rawalpindi was the creation of Ayub and then they're killed by the Army also because because they start thinking they are God and this is the problem Ayub Khan created was hanged by xiaolak the problem is that they go against the institution an Institutional loyalty has been very very important for the Pakistani army it's only now that this is what one of my Pakistani friends who's a journalist said that there are there are two kinds of generals in Pakistan you know uh you know uh so he says that the the religious kinds you know who pray five times a day and


kinds you know who pray five times a day and then there are these whiskey swelling generals of the Pakistan Army and uh he said this is one of the divides of the Pakistani army now what he has done is I think Imran Khan through this long match he has stabbed into uh like Mr devasha said of course anti-americanism because that has been there for a very long time in spite of the fact that Pakistan relies so much on America no it's pretty much afloat because of the Americans for all practical purposes but also the fact that you know this this uh the Pakistani people have never seen victory in their lives and I'm telling you this is very uh important so when somebody comes uh you know where the the diplomacy is uh down right their economy was never up all right uh their army has lost all the words and uh every time you know uh the head of state is seen with the begging Bowl somewhere in the world and all this gets back to


somewhere in the world and all this gets back to the pakistanis they have extremely low self-esteem yes do you think that absolutely that they have lost Wars yes you know the the narrative is that they have won the wars no but uh protest you can only do it against us why don't you fight against India this is what common pakistanis are telling the Army and they know that Pakistani studies is all fraud they know it's fake so coming back to what I was saying Smitha what has happened in Pakistan is suddenly here comes a guy who says that you know foreign absolutely not then I I will say I will say to you what Imran Khan said to the television anchor absolutely not Imran Khan is neither Sadiq nor ameen Imran Khan is slightly less corrupt then the sharifs you know that whole line it's the same thing yeah that used to be the the slogan for Sharif and now here it is so uh this I think this pretty much sums


is so uh this I think this pretty much sums up Imran Khan this is what this is what he's trying it's it's a positive it's interesting if I can interrupt yes he was taken to shakut Khan Hospital when the people from the other hospitals this is after the attack after the attack when the people but listen that attack was no I'm just saying a different thing on Saturday okay so they want to do a blood test and x-ray reports for a medical or legal case to file a complaint they refused to hand over the blood test because it would have traces of drugs now this is not a conspiracy theory it's true it's not it's true they refused because but this is a fact it did not allow the new doctors set of doctors I think from General Hospital or something to come and take his blood report or the x-rays because traces of drugs in his blood okay so sorry sorry so yeah so tell me what did you feel when you saw these uh uh you know the


feel when you saw these uh uh you know the the uh Peshawar said your pictures uh that entire night when one saw and it's gone worldwide you know the PTI supporters across the globe have in many cities of the world uh they've held these protests where they are saying and suddenly you're seeing people coming on the streets protesting against the park Army talking for democracy in Pakistan it seems a little bizarre you know that this is happening did you also feel that when you saw that did you also get that sense that if this is odd absolutely I I was shocked when I heard uh because because all the coups in Pakistan have pretty much been bloodless I mean the people don't get on the streets and people don't protest against the Pakistan Army that's just not done uh when I saw those images outside the core Commander's house I was a little surprised I said this is taking it too far no then they try to climb the the walls into the


then they try to climb the the walls into the governor's mansion and stuff like that in Punjab and every all other places also they started this yes yes uh I was pretty surprised but uh this is what Imran Khan has people believing especially overseas pakistanis also a lot of pakistanis inside Pakistan crores of them but Imran Khan has them believing that he has he has this magic wand you know hmm nobody has asked Imran what your economic policies are going to be nobody's asked him what your diplomatic policies are going to be let's say you do become Prime Minister in the next six months what are you going to do no there is this desperation that's what I'm saying a people who have always lost it's not just about wars lost this game of life in every indicator whether it's passport whether it's public health they're at the bottom they're being compared with Afghanistan and Sudan and here is somebody who comes up and says this is what I'm


who comes up and says this is what I'm going to give you I'm going to give you Riya Madina where everybody will have Justice there'll be fair play there'll be equality and you know it'll be a true democracy this man who says he's going to give pakistanis true democracy then turns around foreign this is the dichotomy that pakistanis have no clue how to deal with because they think it's just another day of office I mean uh just to you know be the devil's advocate here do you think that Imran Khan kind of realized that without the Army at that stage there was no way he could have come into civilian uh Power it was it possible because he came from no big political family nothing else he didn't have money power he didn't have anybody on his side so he needed uh not everybody even people with money power big family ties huge zamindars everybody they don't they don't make it without the Army's health or Army's blessings yeah Imran Khan was brought as


blessings yeah Imran Khan was brought as a counterweight to the sharifs and the interesting part is you know this is the stick that Imran Khan uses today to beat the army with so the Army created a narrative the isi created a narrative that the sharifs are corrupt the sardaris are corrupt here is a man who's not corrupt you know and they kept on saying that the zardaris are corrupt and the sharif's are corrupt no this is exactly what Imran Khan is telling the Army today today correct that music and you put the corrupt people there you put the chores under the gas there all the while you have been saying that he's corrupted now he's there you've put him there and you've removed me correct correct so this is how he's turned it from yeah and also if I can just add she's a narrative he's built for the last six months all the fact that his government was a failure has been drowned has been totally diverted the


has been drowned has been totally diverted the attention of the people if you recall you know he came and he said and then people started saying you know it was so bad but all that had been swept under the carpet and as gaurav rightly mentioned what is this program not one speech in the last six months as he said I will do this Jesus says I was removed by a conspiracy you bring me back to Power and Madina I get that uh that you know he's not talking about policies and he's not talking about what he can do and all but remember that when there is talk of a revolution policy matters don't really come on the phone if you see in India India Rahul Gandhi is out on this policy to to bring about some kind of motivation in the people policy matters emotional connect uh but you know let me come uh let me move a little bit away from uh imrano uh Imran Khan does a feature in your book I'm showing the book right now


in your book I'm showing the book right now uh it's called the pashtoons by tilak diveshar uh a contested history the first thing that came to me was like contest history baby contest but then when I got around to reading it and it's very interesting thing it's a voluminous book it talks about so much about you know uh what a bloody past it has been for them and how difficult uh it has been their past present and it doesn't look like the future is going to be any different either a very interesting reading uh but quite rightly you start off by saying that you know what are our early memories of uh pashtoons of pathans you know we all thought of it as kabuliwala and then later you got to know that yeah okay uh dilip Kumar his real name was Yusuf and he was a pathan but then you also talked about how the uh Ayu Khan was a pathan the Prime Minister the president and our president uh was also uh uh a


and our president uh was also uh uh a pathan and then you talked about Madhubala which I didn't know that she also had pathan lineage yes I didn't know that and Mansoor Ali Khan so then uh becomes so then explain to me that you know how is it that that the pathans have this cultural Affinity regardless of their political boundaries that you know divide our countries whether it's Afghanistan Pakistan India what is it that binds pathans across these three countries we have civilization links centuries then you had the maurya Gupta maurya in Ashoka who whose Empire encompassed what is today uh the Pashto land law Afghanistan you have so many Buddhist monuments and inscriptions or from ashoka's time and in fact before the Islam came to Afghanistan there was a Hindu shy Kingdom in Kabul and the Buddhist Kingdom in and thereafter then the pashtoons started migrating towards India the Delhi sultanate were the kiljis you're the lodis you are the


were the kiljis you're the lodis you are the suris and then you are the rohillas you had principalities in Bhopal you have to inspired in tonk furukabad so there has been cross fertilization between India the Indian subcontinent and the pashtoons first going back centuries in fact you'll be surprised by the largest repository of pashtoon documents are actually in India not only in museum but in different houses every different people no enough research has not been done but there was those who have the largest uh you know most uh manuscripts books written in Pashto are in India so there is a very strong civilizational correction now you may have the talibar in power today and the government of India obviously for obvious reasons is not a very hunky-dory with the Taliban but people to people so whether it's sending fifty thousand tons of wheat or sending covered vaccines or any kind of other humanitarian assistance we feel a sense of responsibility because there is a strong civilization uh connection