the country which has been put in use in multiple occasions and with multiple Technologies which have been which has got a hard kill and soft kill all those options and all that so a lot of work has been going on in this direction after drone based Technologies and anti-drone Technologies in the country working to the current requirements which are happening in the world answer uh like uh this anti-drone technology that you're talking about this this has been in use uh for uh giving protection to the prime minister's speech at the Independence Day as well as on the Republic Day for the parade uh how effective has has it been sir and uh has it uh secured any successes in field deployments no it has been actually used only after successful trials and trials have been done and it has been tested used and so the system is very successful and that's how the technology has been transferred to the industries and industries are producing those Technologies now as I said we are one of the first few countries in


said we are one of the first few countries in the world who have developed such class of Technologies of Android drone system in on the missiles things so we've talked about these mobile launch pads launch systems uh what about submarine and ship-based number of systems are developed on various platforms like today we have brahmos on the ship we have also medium range surface to our missiles on the shapes and we are also developing short range missiles on these so a lot of marine applications related Technologies and missile systems are also developed and being developed today an answer like uh the in the earlier part of the conversation you said now the development of the time span taken to develop a new missile has become shorter can you explain like earlier how long did it take to develop a missile like say from Agni 2 to Agni 3 and now how much time how much have you been able to with this experience of developing missiles how much time does it take for drdo to develop a new missile from


take for drdo to develop a new missile from drawing board to field deployment see the firstly when you look at 1980s the ecosystem was not evolved whether it is the research in Academia or the r d of things various Technologies subsystems what you require are various infrastructure in the country and Industry coming up and all that so it used to take a good amount of time any program used to take maybe anything six seven eight years out of a program what it has been taking up and as the ecosystem has come up see if you look at in 1980s we have maybe very few interesting maybe 10 or 15 Industries which were working at 20 Industries and they were all built to print and nobody was having any capability to develop anything on our specifications and similarly algorithms studies simulations doing in Academia and all also were just coping up and just trying to come up and in the Laboratories also one side developing the systems and then working on the subsystems and all that so that has


working on the subsystems and all that so that has come up and today you have the industries which are able to do build to specifications you have all the Technologies which you have developed it the number of Industries have gone huge number of Industries have come into picture today various academic institutes who are able to work almost on the same plane and same level at you to cope up and develop the Technologies so this has brought in a sea change uh one example I can give and will prime minister SRI Narendra Modi ji has directed a guided drdu to develop the anti-satellite mission which actually has its a mission which needs to be done confidentially he has said try to do it in as short as possible shortest time more like in about two years that missile has been developed and then successfully it has been demonstrated and that is the capability country has gained and it is just a technical demonstration which actually honorable prime minister wanted that to show to the world that India has


wanted that to show to the world that India has the technological capabilities to to take up such critical and large yeah so and that has been done in a very short time so that is what actually the evolution of the ecosystem has helped the country to develop these things faster now and that the mission Shakti or the ASAT missile sir that is in the that is in the class of say a missile like uh Agni Agni series I wouldn't be able to compare exactly like that but it is a mission on it so it's the same same level let's say it's a mission on its hand it's it's a different class of a missile which is required for this sort of operations of anti-satellite thing which is a just a technology demonstration and I'm trying to say that that could be developed in a very short span of time and same way the prolife was also developed a multiple missiles today even quicker action surface to air missile has been developed very fast the Prada has been


has been developed very fast the Prada has been developed very fast and many other systems which are coming quicker than earlier I would say definitely now what we say the averages for developing a particular missile system like say the QR Sam uh earlier uh it would have taken us six to seven years now if we have to quantify it in generally I think we take now almost about three to four years is one thing what you can do so reduction is around 50 almost yes okay so uh as a Modi uh missile man uh I this question obviously will come to you that you know when the balakot strike happened uh at that time there were many reports which said that um that because of our missile system uh that is why Pakistan thought and rethought about any kind of a strike uh on us uh would you agree to that see I say definitely that India is now a technologically it has got all the Technologies it has got all class of missiles which has developed which are available which


of missiles which has developed which are available which are required by Army Air Force and Navi whether it is talking about missiles like air-to-air missile where have Astra which has a very good range and capability we have done very good surface to air missiles which have both short and medium range applications and so you look at where it is a missiles that is cruise missiles you have cruise missiles so all these things make the country a good missile technological house having all these capabilities so that works as a deterrent anytime so you think that these kind of flashes which happen like the Bala coat one they got diffused more because we had capability and capacity um I definitely say that if you look at the world we are one of the first five six countries who possess all these Technologies and capabilities today we stand definitely at that if you look at anti-satellite test what we are done we are the fourth Nation after Russia America and China were done so that's the capability what you got so that


done so that's the capability what you got so that works definitely as a deterrent that the country has such capabilities and Sir like when we talk about uh these missiles that you are mentioning now brahmos is one of the most successful missiles that have come from the drdos table now we are also getting export orders for the missile sir now uh before we got that export orders we had a we had a kind of a clash with the Chinese for which is still going on the military standoff where India stood up to the Chinese bully bullying and took it on now you think that that Goodwill that India is a strong Nation can take on big bully countries like China that helps you when you when people go out when Indians go out and say tell the countries that you should buy this missile or that the brahmos or the other missiles see the world is definitely watching and world knows what we are doing and it has been many of the things have been in the public domain and so


the things have been in the public domain and so definitely world today recognizes in India as having multiple Technologies and multiple systems which India has developed today and that's why we see that there are lots of inquiries coming from many countries across the globe for various systems not even not just missiles alone there have been lots of requirements coming on Radars and Torpedoes and various other systems which are there in the developed by the country so World definitely is recognizing and recognized as as a country which has developed indigenously many of these Technologies and systems and I am sure that coming years it is going to be a sea change particularly uh with the present government emphasizing on make in India on Atman Bharat has helped a lot in making many of these things in the country today and making the Technologies and filling in the Technologies Gap and then also giving the message to the world that India has developed many of these capabilities Technologies and they are available which probably are lower in cost and the call


available which probably are lower in cost and the call given by annual prime minister that make for the world he is helping giving the Boost to the industries that we should supply to the world globally and people are marketing and there have been lots of Interest shown by the many countries today so like uh like we've talked about a lot of missiles that have come from uh which have been developed within the country what are the developments like in field of other weapon systems like tanks and other armaments and Radars including The Radars let me tell you a lot of activities have gone in the country lots of systems have been developed here in the country particularly talking about the tanks India is one of the six countries which have developed their own main battle tank arshan so Mach 1 has gone into the Armed Forces mark one yay again honorable Prime Ministers handed over the first tank to the armed forces in a event and it is being now produced and that also gets inducted into it and now


and that also gets inducted into it and now country is poised for developing many other tanks which are required by the Armed Forces second you know that the 155 mm artillery gun has been developed in the country and you must have heard honorable prime minister talking about it on 15th of August from when the attacks was used in the firing on that 15th August ceremonial firing yes that one yeah and he said is a prestigious gun which has got a very long range 155 modelery gun is another thing we have developed many Torpedoes for ourselves and we have developed many sonars and you said redas is another very big success story of the country country has become completely self-reliant from right from the modules which are required to making varieties of Radars whether it is ground-based Radars are talking about ship base Radars are the Airborne Radars country has developed varieties of Radars from short range median range Battlefield Radars two very long Range Rovers if the country has developed and


long Range Rovers if the country has developed and the country has got the complete Technologies I can say countries completely self-reliant today in Radars so likewise many technologies have been developed sonar's country has developed the sonars many communication systems which are required a country has developed many ammunitions which are required also country has developed so lot of these Technology and Engineering things which are required for the Armed Forces various Bridges and other things which are required are the Reiki and support vehicles and things like that or the wield armored platforms these are all the various things which have been developed in the country so what about aircraft let's move to that because we are still importing most of the components that we need when are we going to have our own aircraft LCA of course firstly LCA is an indigenously developed aircraft that's our aircraft it is our own aircraft indigenous maybe we have used some systems and components from outside that says operating you own the design you own the complete


says operating you own the design you own the complete system as your own design and developed system and all that yes the engine has been imported in that and country has also worked on the engines and the country has developed the cover engines but there has been a gap between the actual requirement and this so but the certain capabilities in the country has been developed in that and country is working on trying to fill these gaps but LCA is a very successful story which has paved the way far development of further aircrafts which are required for the country now and the weapons and technology which go with those aircraft absolutely all the Technologies today whichever go into the fighter aircraft to many of those technology whether it's talk about navigation system or control activation systems or talk about as I said onboard radar or electronic systems what are required for the electronic warfare and Outlet are also developed here in the country all those even in fact the other aircrafts which you have bought from outside also are being equipped


you have bought from outside also are being equipped with our own and systems today in the upgradation program completely indigenous systems are going into it now so site of Cold War the country you know that and the critical thing that it has to be done now so at that time we have there was this uh SR-71 this pipeline which was developed and it was like that is considered to be the best in the business even till today it is considered the best spy plane what about India see India started developing indigenous systems which actually mostly earlier the research was going on and all that developing systems or systems of systems the phase started in 1980s the development of everything here in the country and completely indigenous the trust has come from the present government very seriously and trying to see that everything to be developed here in the country like so two years ago when prime minister decided that everything all import deals to be stopped or put on hold yeah that was amazing major decision where that you try to make everything


amazing major decision where that you try to make everything here in the country you work out what's all being imported and try to see we have worked out we have prepared the list of items across the mod what are all being imported and trying to get all of them developed through industry and r d organizations here in the country and one by one one by and various things and various schemes have been launched to support the industry to come out with these so these impossible deadlines were set for all our labs for all our system Engineers absolutely it is as a whole of Ministry of Defense including the Laboratories industry because it is not just Laboratories alone which can develop it and the industry has a lot of capabilities industry also has come up in a big way lots of startups have also come up in the country so you are identifying you put it in the website all those Technologies and look for who can develop a lot some can be developing the bigger Industries or msmes or startups or some


bigger Industries or msmes or startups or some by Laboratories and all are being developed and there is a Thrust given to see that you try to make everything here in the country in the aircraft technology everything in in every aspect every aspect like sir if you could tell our listeners and viewers that what are the aircraft that we are now developing sir see as you know that firstly the LCA has been developed mark one and Mark one a has come which Air Force has given 83 numbers there are lots of new technologies which has come into it and also we are trying to develop the naval version of it and you have seen that's why the LCA has landed on the earlier aircraft carrier now on vikrant also just landed and that is an important feat what the country has achieved one is that you have developed the Technologies for aircraft landing on uh aircraft carrier and taking off those technologies have been established second on a new commissioned aircraft carrier which is INS vikrant which honorable


aircraft carrier which is INS vikrant which honorable prime minister just couple of months has commissioned that which is again a very very important step in the country's development of marine systems having your own such a huge ship developed where airports are able to land and take off with very high indigenous content is one of the important things so those technologies have been developed and there are efforts in the country to develop the further further aircraft which are required for the Air Force there have been lot of design efforts and development efforts which are going on in the country which actually as is our time is evolving the requirements of the Air Force all those Technologies all the terms of Technologies are also being worked out you're talking about the M Casa multiple both fourth generation and fifth generation Technologies there have been lot of efforts going on in the country so you talked about how you people put out your requirements for making everything in India on your websites and the startups and the industry respond to it how like


the startups and the industry respond to it how like the Prime Minister talking about that there are 90 000 startups in the country which have come in the last nine years what is the scene of startups in defense Industries and how is how do we now like uh the Americans or the advanced Western countries they have a military industrial complex that's huge like they have their lockheeds boeings uh Bas are we going towards the uh situation where we also have our big Industries big players in uh industry making big systems like aircraft and tanks and everything uh it's a very important question and it's a ranging question firstly you said about startups startups it's a actually I say that it has now my it's a moment which has come up in the country it's a phenomenal growth the way number of startups have come in the country as you said and prime minister said the way in the last few years how the startups have come if you look at maybe eight nine years back we had very


look at maybe eight nine years back we had very minimal startups here in the country now the numbers have gone so high and the numbers working in defense and Aerospace also have gone into thousands today thousands of startups are working in defense and Aerospace Technologies youngsters 23 24 25 years people they're working some time back you asked about drones the complete drones related technology there are more than 100 150 startups which have come up and there was uh drones related Technologies in fact there was an exhibition where honorable prime minister also was there in the exhibition to see and people and that was exhibited by other 120 drones there similarly the youngsters are working on all these components various pair bars subtechnologies new technologies which are required new propulsion systems new materials no you know new engine related Technologies the startups are working in multiple directions and that's one important change which has come here in the country which I think country it will be taken up into a new dimension there are many number of schemes which


a new dimension there are many number of schemes which have been launched also particularly various Ministries and definitely Ministry of Defense also has put in to support these industries whether it's idec scheme which is coming from the DDP to promote Innovations particularly in the startups and msmes in drdu the technology development funding where you're promoting r d capability in msmes and startups to come out with many Technologies and many subsystems and developing prototypes they have comment which are giving the Boost and industries have come up in a big way there are a large number of Industries today there are close to about 2000 Industries which are working as Tire one and type 2 Industries and then as the type 3 Industries there are lots of systems have come into and the private Industries have been given a big boost who started entered into many systems development today lots of systems are coming up from private Industries big Industries which can develop bigger systems where you require large infrastructure also coming to


systems where you require large infrastructure also coming to picture can you give us a few examples of what I'm coming to that um see missiles were never developed by private Industries earlier today missiles and bombs were being developed by the Private Industry there are number of Industries which are working on the missiles Radars people are working on any examples in the missiles multiple missiles there are actually multiple missiles which have come from them like you example if you look at a very prominent example like attacks is coming from a private industry today's two industries are developed VAP build or more platform coming from another Private Industry the light tank is coming from another Private Industry today so if you look at it there are so many things which are coming from Private Industry today and erdu has actually brought in a concept of um program called dcpp development production pattern where when drdo takes up any project right from the research or development onwards the dcpp that is development production partner Giants at the development so the complete know-how and


Giants at the development so the complete know-how and knowledge is transferred so that industry would be able to develop the further systems on its own many systems have been gone into the industry uh that way today so the Private Industry particularly evolving in the defense is one again a sea change of what has happened in the last few years these industries which are coming up and that's how the infrastructure also in the country has been developed you said there are hundreds of startups which have which are working in the field of drones so can we say Sir that now we see a lot of this swarm drone Warfare going on in Azerbaijan Armenia or in different parts of the world we can say for this drone Warfare the startup and the Private Industry can arm the Indian Defense Forces see as I said the complete drone technology today is almost everything is developed by Private Industry in in for multiple applications whether it is for surveillance or other pizza delivery that's what is um in fact actually uh there have been


what is um in fact actually uh there have been One requirement which has been projected that the in the hilly regions the transporting of which vaccines other things and all also which actually somebody the farmers have to sell it then they have to carry it in a nearby town and a hilly region going down going up and up those things and ice packs it takes a long time in these regions for people you know for the anganwadi worker to climb those Hills reach the place some Primary Health Care Centers don't have those facilities so drone technology can I believe help in this helping and many policies have been brought in and the startups are working in this in the multiple domains the Drone has got lots of applications and so they are all working in everything in in every possible area they're trying to work on including the Warfare domain everything including the defense domain okay answer like you talked about uh that now we have a robust industrial base now we have a very vibrant startup system where


now we have a very vibrant startup system where startups are held they are producing for the Defense Forces now the prime minister is also or the government has also been talking about make for the world now is this the reason why we are seeing that the exports are going up and imports have come down in the country see firstly the Imports are coming down with the direction from the government that we should try to make everything here in the country there has been a drive towards this direction to make every subcompetent system subsystems and all that are being developed through industry through startups through r d organizations based on the type of the system it is being developed and so the inputs are coming down and the capability in the country as such as an ecosystem to develop all these defense Technologies has gone up in a big way and the country is able to develop many systems on its own today wherein earlier which you were trying to import these systems they are all being developed today see like we have made our own


being developed today see like we have made our own not American which we are developing today we have made our own Torpedoes we are making our own Vehicles today we have our our aircraft the government has cleared 83 numbers for induction of lcas so these are all large systems of indigenous items which are going in into the systems saving a lot of Foreign Exchange and same time as your technologies have the capability has gone up and industries have come up where they are able to produce these systems and make as per the quality requirements and all that so naturally there is a market for it globally and so lots of countries have shown interest and in the varieties of systems in this and so the exports have picked up and last one year more than 13 000 crores worth of equipment has been exported and looking at the inquiries and looking at the new systems what we are developing and these numbers will be going up in a big way in the coming years I guess the Prime Minister has given a target of 5


guess the Prime Minister has given a target of 5 billion dollars by 2025. um definitely the country is going in this direction and trying to you think we would be able to uh definitely I say that it is in this direction going on and the way inquiries are coming India is going to convert itself into a leading exporter in the coming years that much I can definitely tell you and sir you talked about uh having a robust uh development like country having made achievements in radar technology and all now uh coming to this now we have the ballistic missile defense Shield system the bmd system the indigenous one now we have Radars which can track missiles coming from say up to 5000 kilometers this is a big achievement sir can you tell us what is the status of the bmd program and how capable Are We Now do we as and recently we had the S 400 missiles which can uh for the interim which can track up to say five 400 kilometers and take down Targets this bmd


five 400 kilometers and take down Targets this bmd sounds to be having more capabilities than that sir no I would say that country has developed radars uh varieties of Radars right from Battlefield Radars to long range radars as I said the country has developed all the components which are required indigenously which are very Advanced components so the complete capability in the country to develop Radars with very long range also have come up this definitely helps the country to track any object at far off distances detect it and track it and which helps in any defense system which is required by the country so this capability now has been established in the country that you can develop any type of a radar system which is including the advanced development system Advanced Technologies is a capability which naturally is for surveillance applications and detecting targets at far off distances and tracking that which is useful for the defense of the country okay let's let's move on to uh what you said recently when you said that a space traffic is going to


when you said that a space traffic is going to become soon it's going to be as bad as traffic in Bengaluru or Chennai or Delhi or something like that what is the system what is there an international protocol in place to manage the space traffic or should there be one which is more robust this is what I was telling in the Bangalore conference on these is that the activity in the space has gone up in a big way number of satellites being launched by each country is become numerous and look at our own launches and where we have of course the global requirements of various countries also we are launching from our own launch vehicle we have launched at one go more than 100 in one launch itself and things like that so if you look at these whole requirements the number of satellites and number of debris which actually the components parts and other things which also be become part of it is going to be enormous so the traffic in the particularly low earth orbit are going to become in a


particularly low earth orbit are going to become in a big way and so that needs to be managed thoroughly and it has to be one is debris removal programs and launch related the traffic traffic management internationally the space Community need to sit together and work out modalities and mechanisms for the future requirements where these both satellites and debris which are going to play a bin number in a big way and needs to be managed and they should be International Consortium to see that these debris are removed also and manage these spanned satellites also and how to bring down them and things like that without creating debris is one of the mechanisms International Space Community has to work on this traffic management that's what I have said it shouldn't fall into human habitation areas and cause damage or even in the oceans and cause marine life to most of these components and disintegrative they disintegrate and while entering into the atmosphere itself there are very few things which happen so I remember the childhood you know hearing about


so I remember the childhood you know hearing about and there was paranoia where Skylab Sky lab if I don't know what do you recall that time I remember it used to be so big that it's going to fall in India and yeah there was even one one person who named his newborn that day as Skylab sync if you remember that very rare occasions which happen and but most of the things actually it is integrate while entering into the atmosphere so these are all the things what I said that you should manage and that should not cause problem either in the space or also when they actually any one object falling down also should not create any habitation related issues on the ground is one thing actually as a space Community needs to manage that's what I said earlier uh sir I wanted to ask you about this uh the the engines you were talking about the kaveri engines but now we are looking at uh I guess this came up for discussion during your U.S visit also with the NSA uh


during your U.S visit also with the NSA uh engines for the g414 engines for the LCA mark one and the amka mark one is it uh now we are talking about complete transfer of Technology from that country now you think after this the once the tut comes in and we have manufactured it here in the country we would be in a position to produce our own engines for fighter aircraft and we won't be needing anybody else's help firstly uh India has taken a program for indigenously developing the engines here that's the kaveri engine and cover engine is developed and but it couldn't be used in the LCA as both the programs were evolving and so there has there is a gap between the two requirements and so country has developed definitely certain level of Technologies which is required and plca we went ahead with the GE engine and GE has been supplying this engines and we are looking for the other engine which as for the U.S visit is concerned we the team went for the


visit is concerned we the team went for the iset program uh to have cooperation in critical and emerging technologies that has been launched and there have been a delegation from India uh the government side and also Industries similarly there have been a delegation of team which has participated from the government a number of Industries there have been discussions how to go ahead how to move forward and things like that this is a very welcome development which has come in for working on critical and emerging Technologies between the both the countries of USA and India so I'm going to move into uh into the kovid war and the role played by scientists at that time uh just a small short explainer during the pandemic you were part of the drdo team and that made 11 makeshift covered hospitals capacity of 10 000 beds in parts of the country One hospital was built in a record 11 days the the arduo helped construct 900 medical oxygen plants 30 000 ventilators so for those of you who think that drdo is


so for those of you who think that drdo is only about missiles think again there's a lot more the possibilities of spin Technologies being used uh for you know for things like medical and pandemic fight it was phenomenal what the drdo achieved at that stage and what the scientific community did for the country could you tell us a little bit about what were the goals set for you and how you worked during that period as the pandemic erupted the government has formed a number of groups of secretaries who should work on each and every domain connected to this covet pandemic and drdo was put into two such committees and wherein each committee has its own task so which included the development of ventilators development of ppe's development of mass and looking at the sanitizers and various other requirements and oxygen requirement and all that so drdo by virtue of working to the Armed Forces on various things which also covers actually you also have protective masks protective ppes also is one of the tasks so using


ppes also is one of the tasks so using that the Test Facilities which are available and things like that so drdu has developed tweaked its own Technologies for developing the products which are required for the covet and so in that process help the country to come out with many masks many ppas and ensuring The Test Facilities coming out with various other Technologies which are required in various places to fight the kovid and particularly in the ventilators which actually a continuous reviews have been taken by the government none other than honorable prime minister for the faster development of this ventilator Dido then Health Ministry and the the Private Industry Bharat Electronics limited and working together in a very short span of time almost about 50 to 60 000 ventilators have been developed driven by this committee and similarly drdu has developed an onboard oxygen generation system which actually for the Tejas aircraft which has been used to for a ground-based a large oxygen generation system like 1000 liters per minute and 500 is per


like 1000 liters per minute and 500 is per minute this was again required in the second wave particularly for various hospitals across the country it's been funded by the government honorable prime minister himself has given the funding from the PM kids and taken reviews very regularly to develop these plans so there are 22 Industries who have been given this technology very fast and established these oxygen plants across the country a whole of government were along with the state governments have worked on this to see that they're all the infrastructure is developed across the all these districts across the country and then these auction plants are made by the various Industries transported installed commissioned and the monitoring system also has been established so lots of efforts have gone in this and as a whole of government approach and drdu has played an important role as per the directions of the government requirements and things like that such one of those things is building as hospitals were required which also have been built in along with all the


which also have been built in along with all the necessary facilities incorporating these ventilators then oxygen and oxygen supply system and all that they have also been established as you rightly said at various places so it's a pandemic scenario and everyone in the country is looking only towards fighting that pandemic scenario as you have scientific ability and particularly work in similar areas and including a 2dg medicine which has been developed by drd for other applications which also can be used here likewise many things so for the situation which has erupted like this so on the directions of the government drdo has come out and worked on these things for for our Armed Forces who are you know living in uh very trying uh areas conditions uh developing food products for them Soldier is an important element in any Warfare so as is in the frontier areas whether the mountainous region or low temperature region and many other things so he needs to have life support systems for the soldier so you need to develop those Technologies for


soldier so you need to develop those Technologies for him let's say cold weather clothing which is required for the weather there or the place where he lives and various Necessities what he has got similarly having food which he can carry in a low volume but gives you very high energy and things like that is one thing these are all like pilot suits submarines whatever they require suits and so varieties of these requirements which are required for the soldier needs to be developed that did works on those Technologies for the soldier and try to support the soldier with a better equipped systems which makes his life simpler and very effective in those Frontier areas in yeah Dr Reddy I began by saying about how children in in you know many of us who would when we were children we want to become a scientist want to become a marine biologist and things like that but then you take up a job like you know like I became a journalist similarly somebody joins a bank and then slowly


similarly somebody joins a bank and then slowly you'd stop thinking and about those dreams you stop you start filtering out all that information which you were reading as a child you start filtering all that out because it's a dream that didn't get fulfilled whereas you stayed on to become a scientist now tell us at any point of time did you feel uh I don't want to do this I want to do something else how do you stay on course to be you know wanting to be a scientist and staying on the course firstly as I was finishing engineering many of our classmates and others were going abroad we had a very clear determination that we should stay back here in the country in fact my mother and family were also supporting the way I have also built up coming up that we should stay back here in the country and also wanted to be here in the research organization so I've actually tried to join drdu ISRO and atomic energy and drdu's job has come as a first to me


drdu's job has come as a first to me and so join the moment you are giant in drdo it is joined in that wave flow of development of missiles working under Dr Kalam in 1980s which you are trying to develop the first missiles of the country and it is a an atmosphere an environment where there is always enthusiastic environment and people are trying to work with tremendous dedication you have entered into that flow of that particular activity and there was never an opportunity or whatever they don't need to look back that enthusiasm continued the various leaderships the various aspects various programs which are coming and have encouraged us to develop further and further and keeping up the enthusiasm like if you look at the type of enthusiasm what we had in development of the Asad program which actually a Direction coming directly from and the Prime Minister and doing that you're trying to make the world know that country has such great Technologies people have worked two years day and night and developed those


have worked two years day and night and developed those programs so there have been an enthusiasm of programs after programs Technologies of Technologies now it is indigenous systems indigenous technology issues should make systems make for the world and try to make first of its kind system so this sort of a evolving enthusiasm persisted in the whole scientific community in the country trying to develop the systems so fast and trying to make this country is not dependent on anything from outside and country has to develop ourselves and country has to become a leader in these Technologies and try to export is one evolving enthusiasm which has been coming up and you I see that there are sea change in the anxious mind today and if you look get to the number of startups which have come up in the country which nobody thought and India is one of the very few countries so maybe first four or five countries we are having such a fantastic ecosystem of the startups and if you look at the people who are from coming from our its earlier


the people who are from coming from our its earlier about 10 years back majority of them were going abroad now majority of those IIT students are staying back here in the country and they're all working towards Innovations and development and trying to come out with new new technologies new new products this is one thing which is inspiring and I I feel that the youngsters the way the number of startups have come the way they are joining these organizations within the country or industry and the number of research Associates the number of phds which are coming in the country is a changing environment where youngsters are getting more and more towards Technologies more and more coming out with Innovations um I think we all should be very proud the way the country has changed now the mindset of the angstos is getting more and more driven towards these Technologies and Indians in indigenous Technologies I am sure this wave what is now adopted will make a sea change and make the India as one of the I think leaders in


the India as one of the I think leaders in the world when you were recently in Dallas you had this experience that people want to come back a lot of people are trying to come back and you look at our iits now most of those professors are young professors who are post docs who have come back from the world and Vary from various academic institutes and things like that and they're all trying to see that what we can do in India how we can do and looking for opportunities and all that and we have as actually we have lots of youngsters in this country that's the strength of this country and if you look at Engineers alone we are producing about 1.3 Millions a year and so lot of opportunities and India's killed Manpower will be a dominant Manpower in the whole world's skilled Manpower this is one thing which is so this is the one gangsters the education system the new education policy and opportunities number of iits which have come and the number of Institutions which


which have come and the number of Institutions which have come the number of uh incubation centers which have come to support these things and various corridors which have been created the infrastructure The Test Facilities which are there coming up to support the various mechanisms which are come to support the these youngsters to come out with Innovations and r d financial support this is uh changing the system very fast to evolve as a a brighter and much technological Advanced ignition so any message that you would have to young parents who are wondering what kind of advice to give their children in whether they should get into pure Sciences or not because is there is there scope like you saying there's a lot of scope today but what about those parents whose children are just about six to eight years or ten years who have to make that uh that choice right now to get into pure Sciences or not and and students who are taking stem courses what about them should they think about uh India's r d and Science and Technology streams


about uh India's r d and Science and Technology streams as something which is robust and fulfilling as far as uh you know a career opportunities are concerned firstly uh how much an engineering is imported basic Sciences social sciences are also equally important unless the fundamental Sciences subjects you are strong Technologies cannot be developed so there needs to be a lot of importance given to the Sciences in fact that's why the icers have been established in instead of Science Education research more into the sciences and related research which a trust has been given So based on the aptitude of the child whether he is a Sciences or social sciences or engineering related or medical related research we need to encourage looking at the it's only that we have to see that there is a focus there is a Target and then the youngster is motivated towards the target with sincerity and hard work this is what the parent has to ensure but not imposing him on him too much and what you want to do on all that so as


what you want to do on all that so as you say that today lots of opportunities each and every area available basic Sciences lot of opportunities where you get into research you get into teaching or you're learning universities or joining other research organizations is one possibility or you are joining into the other Technologies related area lot of operation But whichever the youngster has and that we should look it into that particular aptitude encourage him make him focus in that direction of course not definitely looking 24 hours only study studies and things that you also should be encouraged into other activities you should be able to play you should be able to participate in sports or other Arts related activities children also need to have all these activities with a primary focus and today our education system also the way it's evolving our educational institutions rankings globally are improving day by day so our education institutions standards are also going up in a big way this also helps the youngsters to come up with a very high standards


youngsters to come up with a very high standards in their education and get motivated and then later opportunities whether to get into the research or get into Technologies or getting into startups or Innovations is one more thing which has come up in a big way today and you also can see a change that they have been Focus was more on to the I.T earlier who were coming from the particular engineering institutions earlier now that has changed now yes they're all working in youngsters are working on Material Science today materials this one see change which has happened which is a very good thing which is evolving and this actually makes for an all-round development in the country and that is what we are seeing and that is what I like to say that of focus yourself lay the targets work towards the Target and when you are laying as you are growing lay your vision as a very at a very high level and that is what Dr Kalam used to say also that think big and work towards it and then only


that think big and work towards it and then only you can achieve great things so this is what our youngster should be thinking and that's what the parents should be directing them well thank you so much for giving us your time and wishing you all the best in the future thank you very much thank you thank you thank you very much for watching or listening into this podcast please like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have heard this or seen this namaste [Music]


my father was a bureaucrat had become a secretary in 1980 when Indira Gandhi was re-elected he was the first secretary that she removed I had no active desire to to join politics at all I mean to me as I said it came as a complete surprise that the Prime Minister could even consider me people who claim to be internationally suddenly become supernationalist beware beware of such people now I ask people if we were being accommodative who sent the Indian army to the lse foreign exception and it is an exception and please notice I said China c-h-i-n-a there is a phrase War by other means there is also think of it this is politics by another means you think the timing timing is accidental I mean let me tell you one thing I don't know if you election season has started in India and Delhi or not but for sure it has started in London and New York politics of India doesn't stop at its bodice sometimes politics of India doesn't even originate in its borders


of India doesn't even originate in its borders it comes from outside why suddenly uh you know there's a surge of reports and you know attention and and Views I mean where some of these things not happening only you have to make a documentary many things happened in Delhi in 1984. why didn't we see a documentary on that Namaste welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is India's external affairs minister Dr s jaishankar an illustrious career of 38 years as Diplomat Dr Jay Shankar was India's Ambassador in China the Czech Republic USA Singapore and then finally foreign secretary he was picked up by Prime Minister Modi to be part of his cabinet in 2019 as external affairs minister the articulate Dr Jay Shankar is my guest today Dr Jai Shankar thank you so much for coming to the podcast you know every podcast that I've done uh the comment section is filled with Vinnie getting Dr Jay Shankar when you're getting Dr


getting Dr Jay Shankar when you're getting Dr Jai Shankar so today let me come and think okay I don't believe one word with that so now I'm so glad and my team is thrilled that you're here with us today and it's a pleasure to be here thank you so I am going to get into the macro issues of policy matters and and you know India's neighborhood and all in the second half of the podcast the first half is basically a curation of all that I've been seeing on the comment section where people said please ask Dr Jai Shankar this so um the question which most people had was that how did the transition take place from you know being a bureaucrat a career Diplomat to becoming a politician joining Mr modi's cabinet how did you make that transition what tools did you employ well uh I didn't make the transition it happened I mean uh it happened because as you know I come from a bureaucratic family we don't have anybody remotely


family we don't have anybody remotely in the family who's entered politics in any party at any time uh it had not crossed my mind I don't think it had crossed the mind of anybody else in my circle and then uh uh lo and behold what happened in May of 2019 happened now uh once I entered I must say in all honesty I I myself was very unsure I mean I had watched politicians all my life you know one of the things you get to do in the Foreign Service by the way is you actually perhaps much more than other services you see politicians up close because you see them abroad your you know you're kind of working with them closely you're counseling them so so it's one thing to watch uh but uh to actually join politics to uh to to become a Cabinet member to stand for rajas because you know when I was selected I was not even a member of Parliament so each of this kind of happened one by one I slid


this kind of happened one by one I slid into it sometimes without knowing it you learned by watching others that's something you know we say sometimes you go to to any foreign environment you kind of you you pick up by so for me this wasn't a foreign environment but it was a different environment so you know you looked at others more senior people more experienced people in the cabinet in the party in other parties I mean I even today you just say watch me in Parliament I do follow a lot I I look very carefully at what people are doing both in my own party and other parties I think there's a lot to learn from everybody so you get into it step by step sometimes you surprise yourself there is a there is a learning curve I I'd be honest with you out there there are times when you are a bit uh hesitant or a bit even nervous but then you know you do it once you do it twice you slowly grow over it so uh you know


you slowly grow over it so uh you know to to stand up there to reason with people to make a speech even sometimes you know because in bureaucracy until really uh uh the Prime Minister that is 2014 prime minister modi's Comet mostly people who are used to speaking in English so so there was a language but there was a subject but there was a environment but there's a different culture also you know as your skills as a diplomat uh it's I guess it would have equipped you to win friends over easily isn't it I don't think it's so much a question of winning friends uh uh I mean yes the the it does help when you're a diplomat you you in a sense are almost trained I would say uh to to to get along to to um you know get the most out of situations some of it is also different people are made different different ways you know uh uh Avenue would say I very rarely get into anything personal with people even when I'm provoked at


anything personal with people even when I'm provoked at times I I think people are just made made different ways but I would say this I mean Islam it's now it will be four years this summer uh it's been a very very interesting four years I'm happy to talk with you later later on about it but when I when I look at these four years for me actually it's been four years of very intense learning you know uh going to a state which uh I had really very little knowledge of it because three times Gujarat you know uh then having a particular area as you know as an MP you work on on your work in on a village or in a in a particular constituency so all of these were learnings and I find it very interesting I find every day is a new day I'll I'm as you can see quite enthusiastic about it yeah you know when uh Mr Modi picked uh you to be part of his cabinet and such an important portfolio everybody thought that you know you'd be


important portfolio everybody thought that you know you'd be like a technocrat or somebody like you know you bring domain expertise and you will be you'll kind of restrict your karma into that region but then once saw you know you evolved you became like a like any BJP karyakarta like any BJP worker you're you're part of the party you take the party line you go to all states not just Gujarat you're going to Karnataka you go to Tamil Nadu I've seen you going everywhere and uh speaking about the party it's become part of your uh the political part has also become part of your making now well uh um you know for me it's interesting that's how it seems to you but look uh one uh this comment this cabinet is very much a team cabinet okay so you don't do your own thing out here you know you may have a background you may come from a stream but this very idea that you know you will do your domain as you say be a technocrat


will do your domain as you say be a technocrat I don't think it gels with what is this cabinet secondly uh when I was selected as a as a minister I was not a member of parliament I was not a member of a political party either I had the choice of whether I would join a political party or not there was no compulsion on it nobody brought up that subject it was something which which was left to me I joined because one you know when you are joining a team you join it wholeheartedly that is where you give your best performance and where you get the best support and secondly I I really reflected on on you know what is what is the meaning of of actually joining a political party it's not a decision I took lightly and as someone who's studied and analyzed politics all their life it was something for me of a great importance so I joined because I genuinely believed today that this is a party which captures the sentiments and interests and aspirations of India the


sentiments and interests and aspirations of India the best and I get into other issues because again one of the differences you know moving from bureaucracy from a department or a service into politics you learn so much more when you are a member of the cabinet you know your exposure every cabinet meeting you know there are let's say 10 items the you know it could be on agriculture could be an infrastructure but you you get you get a cabinet note you read the note you are interested you will you will study a little bit more so you actually your your interest product and if your interest broadened when you go out there and speak to people it'll show up is there any difference in how uh Dr Jai Shankar the Diplomat thought and operated and how Dr Jai Shankar the external affairs minister politician BJP worker thinks and operates you know ah say in a way it's like different lives you know uh now you you've got to understand the challenge that it was for me


got to understand the challenge that it was for me personally because uh I am from a bureaucratic family you know my uh my father was a bureaucrat I've held a brother who's a bureaucrat my grandfather was a brokerage and not aunts but uncles uh uh who are who are there so our world if I can put it to you this way was very very bureaucratic our goals our dreams were bureaucratic what do you mean by that meaning you know if you had asked me uh if you and I had met which we had let us say in 20 2010 and say okay what's your dream I want to become foreign secretary that's a dream of any Foreign Service Officer in in our house it was also particularly uh you know it was something we put you never said that no you never asked me it was in 1993 I think that I first yeah you never asked me that bluntly but had you asked me that look yeah it's a reasonable dream to have


me that look yeah it's a reasonable dream to have I mean after all when you I mean if if you start a business so you do something you want to be the best in it right yeah okay I mean there's nothing wrong with that sure so fine I wanted to be the best Foreign Service Officer and to my mind the definition of the best that you could do was to end up as a foreign secretary now in our household there was also I would say I won't call it pressure but we were all very very conscious of the fact that my father was a bureaucrat had become a secretary but he was removed from his secretaryship you know uh he was he became at that time probably the youngest secretary in the janta government in 1979. for viewers and listeners who don't know uh Dr Jai Shankar's father was Dr K subramanyam who played a key role uh in formulating India's strategic Doctrine sorry for interrupting you so in 1980 he was secretary defense production in 1980 when


1980 he was secretary defense production in 1980 when Indira Gandhi was re-elected he was the first secretary that she removed and you know he was by I mean he was the most knowledgeable person everybody would say on defense he was also a very upright person maybe that caused a problem I don't know but the fact was as a person he saw his own bureaucratic career in bureaucracy actually kind of stall and after that you know he never became a secretary again he was superseded during the Rajiv Gandhi period for his uh you know somebody Junior to him became cabinet secretary so it was something he felt we rarely spoke about it but it was obviously something which which must have been inside him so he was very very proud when my elder brother became secretary uh and uh uh in my case uh he he passed away in 2011. uh at that time I had got what you would call grade one which is like a secretary rank Ambassador I didn't


which is like a secretary rank Ambassador I didn't become Secretary I became after he passed away but for us you know at that time the like the the goal you could say was okay we must become Secretary now as I said I had achieved that goal so in 2018 I was very happy to kind of walk away into the sunset I ended up finally walking not into the sunset but into Tata Suns and you know I was I think contributing my fair bit there I like them I think they liked me and then completely as a bolt out of blue the the political opportunity came now the the political opportunity uh for me was something I needed to think about you know because I was I was simply not prepared for it so I did reflect on it briefly due to the pressures of time at that time and when you say what is the difference between the the foreign secretary or the bureaucrat jashankar and this is yeah it's a different world it's a different responsibility it's a wider


world it's a different responsibility it's a wider vision and I you know I I put it to people like this I may have sat 40 years in the parliament Gallery it's not the same as being on the parliament floor uh I used to sometimes in fact you know uh swaraj was my Minister and as foreign secretary we used to talk a lot I mean every we had this practice we establanc I mean I'd go and see her every day but of course they would begin by her actually calling every morning and uh I always had the comfort as a secretary and if I I don't want this to sound immodest I was a confident secretary I believe I was a good secretary but I had the confidence that I have a minister and a prime minister above me who at the end of the day shoulder that political responsibility come May 2019 that political responsibility is mine it's a completely different feeling as a minister you have to look at it not departmentally you know there may be


look at it not departmentally you know there may be something uh let us say uh which is I'm giving you an example say wheat export to some country as of as a secretary I would say you know that country's relationship is very important but as a minister I'll have to say okay what's my own wheat prices looking like what are the domestic concerns out there who you know who else do we need to talk to every issue every major issue has some political angle sure which a minister will tend to see much faster than a bureaucrat however good that bureaucrat might be so it's kind of challenging yes absolutely it is okay so um I don't know whether you'll answer this question but I will ask you that who asked you was it the Prime Minister and uh two uh where what was the first time that you met Mr Modi and what did you what were your first takeaway of that meeting the uh who asked me meaning who asked me to John the government yes the


meaning who asked me to John the government yes the Prime Minister okay uh when did I meet Mr Modi first I met him in 2011 in November uh in Beijing um I never met him before oh he was chief minister he had come on a visit and that's how our acquaintance started uh I assume in the light of later events I must have made a good impression I can tell you he may frankly he made a very big impression on me because I you know by by 2011. I had already done uh uh I mean I had done what uh two Ambassador real postings already no this was my third third one yeah and I'd seen so Singapore and check check I started saying you know people come and go achievement I had never met someone better prepared better uh more serious uh and also more I found it very interesting you know I give you a and this is the person by the way we are meeting here for the first time so uh he we go through this business briefing you know what


he we go through this business briefing you know what he should say who is meeting Etc then he said that Maps a little bit of a surprise no chief minister had done that and of course he told me I mentioned it in one piece I've written saying look it's very important for me that I'm abroad I may be from a different party but I shouldn't say or do anything which is different you know at that too in a country like China so uh it should it's very you know I want you to brief me on on kishus and we were having our problems at that time even at that time there was a listing problem there was stable visas problem they were not dealing with a northern command they were you know all these are some Gujarati diamonds yes there was a bunch of Gujarati Surat traders who had also been dead and he brought that up as well the uh after I did you know who's done with him and we went for the meetings and then we were


and we went for the meetings and then we were riding in the same car so he said you know I have this habit he said my heart meeting about my debris things are not okay okay so I I remember this because you know for me there is a certain manner of working which she has you know his all the time like gauging sensing very very sensitive to to to this very keen that he should not make a mistake that he should convey things accurately to the policy that the nuances are captured this was my first experience of him after that I didn't see him till he became prime minister okay is it the same now before he travels after he travels when you travel is it the same kind of thing foreign policy matters you talk to each other where he asks questions you answer you ask questions he answers is that how it works it's no it is and it isn't I mean uh sort of intrinsically it is the same but it's now on a totally different scale


same but it's now on a totally different scale and leak sure so uh now what happens is usually you know we would strategize before you know we spend usually I'd say even not at the beginning of the year but even in the previous year we'd start thinking you know what should we be doing where are we going who should we engage that kind of strategy session ah when it comes to something specific you know uh uh it would it would uh it would be like he would we would go through the details of where we are going you know what are the objectives who are we meeting what are their objectives so there's a there's a kind of uh I would say strategizing and uh and uh game planning which goes uh well ahead and then it's repeatedly visited reviewed uh so uh so sometimes even in the midst of meetings you would see us you know one of us lean across uh and say something to him or him doing the same or if there's a break in a meeting you


same or if there's a break in a meeting you know we would have a quick confabulation I mean you could I mean Sensei and I films a lot of this you would often see you know there's a quick huddle yeah where you quickly saying something we are updating or he's sharing uh his you know um uh we can't hear though because thank God you can't help because you know that would kind of destroy our uh strategizing we should get somebody to see the lip syncing and see what's happening there but uh but uh dude he's very he's a very discussive person if you know what okay and he has views but he's very open to you know opinion agreement disagreement Improvement mitigation it's it's very it's very yeah how do I say you know yeah interactive lots of people say that he's he's a very ideas kind of a man in fact you know uh some of the questions were on YouTube with that and my team has made a a video which I'm going to show


has made a a video which I'm going to show it to you I'm part of the East I'm part of the South I'm part of the West I'm universal I'm India someone to say I'm doing this because it is for counter-terrorism you know you're not fooling anybody by saying this thing Mr Soros is a old Rich opinionated person if I could only stop at Old rich and opinionated I would put it away but his old Rich opinionated and dangerous you know somewhere Europe has to grow out of the mindset that Europe's problems are the world's problems but the world's problems are not Europe's problems our total purchases for the month would be less than what Europe does in an afternoon I don't think we're sitting on the fence just because I don't agree with you uh doesn't make me sitting on the fetch it means I'm sitting on my ground I'm entitled to have my own side I'm entitled to weigh my own interest make my own choices you're asking the wrong Minister


make my own choices you're asking the wrong Minister when you say how long will we do this because it is the Ministers of Pakistan who will tell you how long Pakistan intends to practice terrorists if you have snakes in your backyard you can't expect them to bite only your neighbors eventually they will bite the people who keep them in the backyard if I were to take Europe collectively which has been singularly silent on many things which were happening for example in Asia you could ask why would anybody in Asia trust Europe on anything at all you are asking me I would say yes 2014 was a watershed moment yes things have changed better after 2014 yes our foreign policy has become more dynamic more effective more prominent after 2014. Mr Modi is very famous and very demanding so how do you deal with that I'm so glad you chose that understated word demanding so uh yes I I think the prime minister is demanding I think is rightly demanding because it's time that India had a demanding


demanding because it's time that India had a demanding person as prime minister it stopped to work for a demanding boss but at the end of the day you actually if you feel that's the kind of person the country needs I think you're willing to do whatever you have to do with that two democracies will end it differently and if you can prove that concept here then I think is probably the best way to sell democracy one democracy will settle it and you know which one okay so that's right so this this is what we uh you know my team got this together and uh the same thing about being a demanding prime minister the one is heard about how you have 11 pm meetings and 11 30 midnight post midnight meetings happen with in this cabinet uh and it's it's like working especially during covert times when these crisis happened the Ukraine situation where Indian students had to be evacuated those are like very tense times right and it's it's he's on the job all the


and it's it's he's on the job all the time uh well look uh I don't want you to get it wrong it's not like you particularly want to meet or the meetings happen at 11 o'clock or late at night kind of thing I think it's a situation it's partly the prime minister's schedule but you mentioned for example uh the Ukraine uh conflict operation Ganga now what was happening at that time was that the Prime Minister was busy campaigning in up if you remember at that time now last year same time yep now 24th of February yeah a little bit later yeah okay now it could have been I don't know maybe some other prime minister would have said okay guys I'm busy with up now you go manage this uh but I think it bothered him it he felt he needed to to to get a good sense I mean lives were at stake so we would have situations where he would campaign the whole day come back to Delhi I mean you could see the sometimes you


to Delhi I mean you could see the sometimes you know how exhausted he was and then somewhere he would find that energy and the I don't know the adrenaline and uh we you know we would meet late because he's come back late from company sometimes the situation would would call for it I mean uh I I think I once mentioned this maybe in one of those same occasions you showed me right now where uh which was our Consulate in mazareshari being attacked and I remember it was I think it was past midnight and I I also have this habit of staying up late and I I like to clear my desk every day without fail and in fact he called up and normally you know some some other guy comes up and sort of says the PMR should talk to in this case it was him and so I think if there is something happens he he feels you know he feels deeply about it he sort of feels it's not like ask somebody to do something he wants to know


ask somebody to do something he wants to know that it's being done now mind you having said that I also say this as his working style that once an objective is achieved or a mission is set or whatever it is he then you get the space to then carry it out okay so say operation Ganga I mean he would want to know what we were doing he would sometimes give suggestions but it was not like he was wanting to you know get down he trusted you okay with the details and that's why I mean for me the the uh the sort of I would say the pleasure of working with him I mean what do you need from what does anybody need from a boss you need from a boss somebody who gives you a a goal with clarity who whatever their thoughts ideas Etc then if you are the experienced operational Prince person you know you leave them to to yeah figure out how it is done you take your feedback you might want to cause correct but he gives you a lot of the


cause correct but he gives you a lot of the space and which is why I think if you look at the last seven eight years of Indian foreign policy we are able to move I mean I I give you why operation ganga I'll give you operation Dost right now yeah okay no yes okay uh the earthquake happened I mean I think literally you know in a very very short time uh you know he wanted to know what are our thoughts I kind of sent in our thoughts I very quickly consulted uh you know my people in my own Ministry and literally within a few minutes we were told okay you got the goal now you know go to you know talk to ndrf or whatever 48 hours if I'm not mistaken that they were already there we were less less than less than 48. yeah you know um you were talking about delegation and about getting uh things in order quickly um we've seen videos of the cabinet committee on security CCS meetings you know it looks like this is the creme


you know it looks like this is the creme de La Creme of the cabinet everybody getting together very serious looking very tough and you you all look like you know what happens in these meetings uh you know we saw that URI balakode pulvama uh ganga operation ganga um we saw this with during covert times with how do these meetings things takes take place what happens does everybody import output what happens there no it would vary say if there's a larger meeting usually there would be some kind of briefer uh in any meeting because somebody has to put the proposition and then you know obviously then the the flow kind of gets opened up typically the Prime Minister comes in sort of uh later I would say I mean he allows people uh to to speak before he actually says anything that would be a a norm uh we may look very serious because usually when CCS meets it's a serious matter you know uh the the routine CCS meeting we have you know wow if there


routine CCS meeting we have you know wow if there is some uh something which some agreement or purchase or something needs to be cleared often you don't get the photo of it because you yeah you yourself would not be covering it so you would not most of the pictures you do have would be of occasions like URI or post Galvan uh you know where where the situation is serious and I think it's obviously reflected on our because there's no briefing after the CCS we never get to know what happened yes but you look uh I I think uh garments at the end of the day are supposed to focus on governance so so if you if you have I mean if there are decisions you made which need to be executed you're not going to come and tell the Press guys we just made this decision and that is how it is going to be executed okay so now uh let me come to you know when we were talking about how you do your briefings to the Prime Minister you


you do your briefings to the Prime Minister you do your briefings to the cabinet what happens when you're at with parliamentary committees there is the opposition also out there Parliament but the Parliamentary committees there are opposition members also right the Parliamentary committee on Foreign Affairs oh okay consultative consultative committee right so there are there are people from the opposition also in that so how do you how do you convince them about policy matters well I I you know uh I have only experience uh of my own committee because both as foreign secretary and as em have dealt with them uh the way I deal with them is we take a subject uh we tell them this is the subject normally we take something very topical and then we would have again a presenter often it would be the foreign secretaries it could be some other security normally not then I open it and encourage everybody to to have they say and then what would happen is in some cases the presenter May respond but I would as a


cases the presenter May respond but I would as a minister uh sort of uh respond to every one of the comments which are made by every one of the members so my intent of doing that is really one to underline to them that we take them seriously to not them seriously but their concerned seriously to it does help in in kind of carrying them along and sometimes in convincing them the politics is politics or sometimes whether they're convinced or not they will not admit it Rahul Gandhi didn't get convinced by you he in fact he said that I think you were he saw I don't know the exact words but I think he said that you did not know much about foreign policy matters you needed to learn a little more uh well let me let me put it to you more accurately this wasn't at a parliamentary committee uh I mean in parliamentary committees we have interacted but usually what happens in parliamentary committee I try to keep to myself so I will not


I try to keep to myself so I will not get into it with you either this I think was something he said at some kind of public meeting somewhere that you don't know much about I think he look I I cannot watch for the exact words either but uh I think it was probably in the context of China yeah he's not convinced about China either but you know I mean he thinks that you are opaque about it uh uh I don't know whether it's opaque or whether you know there was a sort of a level of knowledge understanding I mean all I can say in my defenses I have been the longest serving Ambassador in China I have been dealing with a lot of these border issues for a very very long time I uh I would say uh let me put it to you this way I'm not suggesting I'm the necessarily the most knowledgeable person but I would have a fairly good self opinion of my understanding of what is up there okay but you know I'm I mean if he


there okay but you know I'm I mean if he has Superior knowledge wisdom I'm always as I said for me life is a learning process Superior knowledge wisdom on China if he has so I'm always willing to listen okay and learn from Mr Rahul Gandhi on China you think that that's a possibility I have never closed my mind to anything however improbabilities okay all right um four years as foreign minister of India and Ninth year of the Modi foreign policy what is the report card like I think it's a it's a very solid report card uh number one it's a if you look today at a global standing which is a very intangible measure of success but it's a very visible measure of success you know you you ask yourself uh 2020 3 you know when a prime minister of India in this case Narendra Modi you know convenes a meeting walks up on a global stage or a conference how do people react what compare it with even with him five years ago perhaps with his predecessors many


him five years ago perhaps with his predecessors many of them I would say today our Global standing is clearly very much higher is quite good quite strong number two uh strategically I think there is today much greater Clarity in our own thinking and in our own operations and I say that as an implementer of foreign policy that you know people know there's a neighborhood First Neighborhood first means build your connectivity and your contacts and this is your first priority then they know there's an extended neighborhood to the West towards the gulf to the east asean to the South Sagar Central Asia the set of policies which do that then they know there's a policy of engaging the major Powers they know there's a Africa Focus so there is today a lot of strategic clarity about our strategy and that's necessary if you are serious about operationalizing it third in terms of operationalizing it you know we we do today projects uh in in almost 80 countries in the world it's you know most Indians don't realize how much we


you know most Indians don't realize how much we do abroad uh today and those are often the test of our credibility and there's been a huge Improvement there that projects which would often lie for years uh you know unfinished struggling for something the the efficiency of that has improved on big Global issues today uh I think the expectation is that India would have a say they would have a voice they would have a opinion and they would if necessary you know have more than that and this could be climate change it could be counterterrorism could be black money I mean you look at the at the big it could be something like Maritime security uh even today trade investment that technology then I would also you know point to the fact that we have been able to uh to very clearly demonstrate to the world that we are a exceptional International power meaning we are willing to do things for others perhaps more than most other countries are at this point of time one is this sort of first responder record we have built up


this sort of first responder record we have built up turkey is the latest that if something happens if it is reasonable if it is within the realm of possibility you know India is there early in the operation Operation you know I I can give you so many yes a whole whole list list of these you know uh Rahat in Yemen sankat mochan and Sudan those are one country or one region yeah or one situation if you ask me a single thing we have done uh in the last 10 years which has shaped uh Global views about us I think it is vaccine by three yeah that uh the the you know it's almost uh I would say not it it's almost emotional to hear what people come and tell you uh about that and yet there was criticism at that time if you remember Dr Jai Shankar because people said you haven't managed to uh we haven't managed to vaccinate all of our population and here we were sending vaccines abroad there was a lot of criticism then I


abroad there was a lot of criticism then I I don't know if there was a lot because I think domestically at least there was I I think there was loud criticism from the expected quarters I don't I would not consider it lot of criticism ah you know it's very interesting in this country you would have people who when you do things say why are you doing it when you're not doing it say why are you not doing it if there's consistency the consistency is an opposition to anything you do okay the the fact is I think most people in this country understood that you know it's the right thing to do and let me tell you uh one thing when Delta came Delta wave came because it wasn't only the vaccines you know before that there was a hydroxychloroquine there was a paracetamol etcetera think how many countries did their bid to help us and some of them you know like say President Biden are the Americans they said very clearly saying that look India helped us and we


clearly saying that look India helped us and we are going to help India so uh you know this very uh sort of short-sighted view and sometimes as I said you know the people who claim to be internationally suddenly become super nationalist you know beware beware of such people because I am going to come to that whether we are hypersensitive as a country uh you know to criticism because uh you saw that little video that I played uh in which uh George soro's statement on Democracy which you took on you took on and you you said that you know you said he was old Rich opinionated and I know what I said right now this also the the op-eds which come in foreign media which say that um that they blame India for now for chronic capitalism and say Mr modi's images got hurt the BJP on the other the hand says that there's a there's a conspiracy against India Rising India and uh you know Mr modi's muscular policies and then it would be nicer to


muscular policies and then it would be nicer to have a Meek and submissive India look uh Smith uh I have dealt with the world for a long time uh I have dealt with the media for I even had a media job at one point of time okay I want you to step back don't think incident by incident they say this you know something happened you said this they said this the media said I don't want you to do that because it's you're really losing the woods for the trees I want you to think step back and think the last nine ten years okay what you have from different quarters is you know an episode there a decision here an adjective added here you know a photograph done there it's like drip drip drip drip like water on stone they the whole idea is to shape your image you know your Collective image shape it in a way in which you are made to look extremist you're made to look unreasonable you are made to look as though you know you are not part


to look as though you know you are not part of this what is otherwise a great good uh Progressive world okay now it happens in different ways you know every time we make a major decision you talk about us being hypersensitive I would put it to look at the hypersensitivity of the of the media you know look how people jumped up and down when article 370 was was uh you know decided upon now or you know even even this example that you know millions of people will lose their citizenship of it and then see sometimes the dishonesty of the CAA one that you see the dishonesty of it you know you've had reports and you know I'm look I'm not personalizing it you know I've got nothing against individual a or b or newspaper A or B but each one of them has contributed their bit okay you actually have people who suggest problems in Assam or because of Narendra Modi now you and I know I mean come on this is Indira Gandhi's time okay but that is


is Indira Gandhi's time okay but that is whitewashed you have people who say oh the serious problem is judiciary because the there's a next chief justice who's now entered Parliament is it for the first time no there was earlier so you know our institutions come under attack you know I mean as I tell people say what you will for me you know the to me the the which one of us doubts our Election Commission which one of us goes to vote and thinks the the result is not what what is true and you know uh capturing the the Integrity of the processor and yet what will happen you know that comes Under Pressure so there is an attempt and it's it's a very very clever uh attempt and it takes different forms you know we had a very very tough time during coverage so you are you saying it's all coordinated I don't know I think there is a mindset I think the mindset I would say there's an ideology uh the I'll give you the example of


ideology uh the I'll give you the example of covet okay I grant you we went through a horrible time in covet I mean many of us lost people in our families friends acquaintances look at the coverage of our covet did people not die in other countries did we see that coverage out there did you see that kind of photograph from other countries I mean you heard of bodies piled up in parking lots in other countries yeah so I'm putting it to you this way look I do think that one of the challenges today is you have due to in my view and you know you may or may not agree with it over 70 75 years what has happened is actually democracy has worked in this country and the proof of democracy working in this country is cities talk you know if you look where is your leadership coming from they are no longer the people necessarily from big cities and English speaking schools okay there are people of a different background and it's again I'm not talking individual here I'm


it's again I'm not talking individual here I'm talking about generalized phenomena you look at the mindset of the society this society today has become much more assured about what it believes in there was a time when actually you kind of kept that as though you know uh you're not supposed to talk about your cultural beliefs uh in front of other people so you actually have a huge change experience that when you were in jnu not talk about Indian culture you know that was in the 80s 70s 70s in the 70s look you're diffident about your own culture I mean I I saw this comment in which you said one of the greatest diplomats that India has was Lord Krishna and there was Lord Hanuman you mentioned him also and uh it's it's not something that is spoken about in diplomatic circles and even in the media who the beat journalists would never think of diplomats and not even you and you know when when you think about it your your background your journalism


when you think about it your your background your journalism I'm sorry your education well yes and no because you know it's a socialist I also had a lot of home education okay say genuine was different I was I was 18 when I went to jnu okay and Janu was very very firmly leftist at that time and I think uh everything you know at 18 what you intuitively believe is either formed by your friends and acquaintances or what is reflective of your home ah and definitely in our home my father who was a very strong influence on us was very distrustful of ideologies and people who he believed were not uh who did not have the loyalties in our own country such as well you look you know you're we are not talk remember he had his own views about what was happening in the 40s and 50s at that time you know who was for the national movement uh you know where did different people you know how how did they switch remember at that time China there was a there


switch remember at that time China there was a there was a big China issue I mean we are oh okay you're talking the war and things no no no yeah so I he he particularly I think had he was very very distrustful of the left you know uh uh so of the Communists left and uh I think some of it so in a sense we grew up a very unspokenly but very strongly as very patriotic children you might say you know we kind of went to uh this military institutions I went to Air Force school to King George's Bangalore military school my my siblings went to some of them went to Naval school to Sardar Patel vidyalayaso I think that was the kind of mindset I took into genu so in fact in Janu which was a dominantly leftist Outlook where the teachers the students the administration everybody was very leftist my lot of people my cohort were the first set of people who actually politically took on the left okay and and actually we had a


on the left okay and and actually we had a meeting we had an election even where they then uh prakash karat was the was the SFI candidate here he won one election he lost one election so I you know I I where did you stand in that oh I was very clearly with what was called the free thinkers free thinkers yeah free thinkers was a assortment because other than the left there was no other political and there was no to cry to cry in those days no no that see the all that came very much very much later so I would say that sense of uh uh nationalism connection to Country this was kind of instilled in us on the cultural question it was very interesting you know when I did my book I have a chapter on the Mahabharata in the book and uh one of the Delhi journalists asked me this question said you know I find that very surprising I said yeah partly because maybe you don't know me that well but we learned all of us I'm talking about


but we learned all of us I'm talking about siblings as well we read Mahabharata very early in fact very often it was the subject of discussion in our house of you know and we approached a lot of it was approached as strategy as you know uh in a in a sense what our own epics and by the way we were very uh I would say Cosmopolitan household it wasn't you know um the you know the same father also gave us Iliad and odyssey and other things as well okay so you had Homer on one side and you had the Mahabharata and a lot of things in between okay I'm sure you had plated Plato and Aristotle too I'm a political science student yes I I actually studied those yes yeah yes so uh I'm going to come to this whole thing about the sensitivity issue do you feel that you know because many say that ban this and ban that uh do you believe that that is a solution to it Banning a documentary here Banning a book


to it Banning a documentary here Banning a book there uh asking a channel not to broadcast in India no no look uh I I I don't think that you're asking the right question I would I would ask you rather ask you a counter question what is it we are debating we are not debating just a documentary or a speech that somebody gave in a European city or a you know a new a newspaper uh edit somewhere we are debating actually politics which is being conducted ostensibly as media as so you know you there is a phrase War by other means there is also think of it this is politics by another means you'll do a hatchet job then you want you want to do a hatchet job and say well you know this is just another Quest For Truth which we decided after 20 hours to put out at this time so so I mean come on you think that I mean timing is accidental I mean let me tell you one thing I don't know if you election season has started in


I don't know if you election season has started in India and Delhi or not but for sure it has started in London and New York hmm okay so this is what it is that being said that the rise of Mr Modi and consequently the rise of India these two things are happening at the same time which is not acceptable to people in these Western capitals that you're talking and certain Indian quarters too do you agree with that point of view I don't I mean do you doubt it I'm asking you no I look look who welcome cheerleaders no let me let me answer answer your question you know what is happening is just like I told you this drip drip drip how do you shape a very extremist image of India of the government of the BJP of the Prime Minister I mean this has been going on for a decade okay let's let's not uh have uh Illusions about it how some of this has a different variant which is you will say something there's an echo chamber


is you will say something there's an echo chamber you'll it'll be picked up outside then you'll say aha see they are saying it outside that must be true then you will say it inside so there's a ding dong uh going on see look this is a globalized world people take that politics abroad politics of India doesn't stop at its borders sometimes politics of India doesn't even originate in its bodies it comes from outside you know ideas come from outside agendas come from outside otherwise please tell me please tell me why suddenly uh you know there's a surge of reports and you know attention and and Views I mean where some of these things not happening earlier I mean I I gave you the example of Assam yeah your people speak about okay you have to make a documentary many things happened in Delhi in 1984. why didn't we see a documentary on that if if that was your concern that your son you know you felt suddenly one day okay I'm very humanistic and I must


one day okay I'm very humanistic and I must get Justice for people uh who have been done wrong so so look don't don't kid yourself this is politics at play this is at politics at play by people who do not have the courage to come into the political field they want to have that Teflon cover saying that you know I'm an NGO I'm a media organization Etc but they are playing politics how does BJP react to this is it or your government for that matter is it react you know is it a reactory reactionary measure that you have to take how do you counter look I I think we will put our point of view across and as should be rightfully done in a democracy eventually the public will give its verdict which is electorate that's why it's only by the ballot that these things if he gets re-elected that means that they have been proven wrong is that it is that what you're saying look I I would say yes among other things because in a democracy uh


say yes among other things because in a democracy uh I mean don't you trust The Ballot Box and the people's verdict to be the final opinion I do I know there are some people who believe that their view supersedes elections so in fact by the way I mean even that look look at this term I like you you win election great democracy I don't like you you win election what are you electoral autocracy yeah I heard that but what a great term right that's a result for people you don't like who win elections politics my dear so if there's so much money being going to be pumped in how does how does India react how does India even deal with it when you don't know that there's one enemy or this is amorphous entity look I I would say it I think there there should be and there is a battle for narratives which goes on uh there will be narratives designed to damage us we have to put out narratives designed to expose people or design to


narratives designed to expose people or design to put our Viewpoint across I think we will my my own sense is that most people will through their I mean you know this is a pretty informed age you know that that Iraq and people had only one or two sources and they control thinking I think that's gone by a long time ago let me come to the uh foreign policy issues which I said we'll do in the second half of it you know um increasingly domestic issues and the foreign policy have become interlinked uh foreign policy matters used to be something which domain specific people handle it and foreign beat journalists demystified it for you but it's no longer the case and one saw it happening one during covet when everything everybody wanted to know why are we giving it to this country why not to that country how much are we giving do we have enough then there was the CAA there was the farmer's protest there was nupur there was so much that was happening uh how do


was so much that was happening uh how do you deal with this it's like literally you know the you know that game that children pay where you go on beating things it was like that in that that two-year period was really tough uh the uh now I was smiling at the imagery you you invoked now look I the in a globalized data what happens is that everything from the world comes to India everything from India goes out in many ways it's a good thing it has its own challenges it has its own vulnerabilities so uh so how does it impact us that's really your question what it does is uh I have to often as part of my narrative setting explain uh thanks to foreign audiences so I I give you an example take take this whole scare mongering that millions of people are going to lose citizenship now you tell people saying that look this was set one year has passed two years or past three years where are these people you know you this after all we're supposed