mine is fatter than yours so add more files yeah and everybody and the pakistanis used to say even then give us more evidence give us more evidence that operates out of my country give us more evidence that Muhammad operates out of this country so we went through this entire cycle with Pakistan for years and as you remember correctly but and it seems to me that you know it is a strange in a strange way we are having a sort of a re replay of that thing only in Pakistan uh they would ask for proof whether uh you know dawood is there or whether any of the uh terror camps were there so you know radar imagery okay this that all these things where are the pictures of hafez and those kind of things but here the khalistanis are there parading it all correct and Goldie bra who was involved in the sidhu Moose Wala thing he's sitting there in Canada so we don't even India doesn't even need to give proof it's there and so that's


need to give proof it's there and so that's exactly the point you see the in fact I think some Canadian officials actually went to the Nia uh to say you know we would um give us more information Etc and uh but they don't realize our history and I don't think they know the depth of that history so uh Indian officials obviously blew them away and said what do you mean they said exactly what you said which is Goldie look at Goldy brush sit there there you know the referendum the the the real trigger for the Indian thing was probably the referendum uh the khalistan referendum that happened um and uh even though this I think it was the 16th or the 17th of September that the Canadian government actually told the Indian government that uh you know we are not we don't support this as they had done even in 2020 but the point is that it is actually happening under your noses and there was no attempt to to shut it down uh there are many ways people


to shut it down uh there are many ways people shut down uh things that are of interest to friendly countries and the biggest one that I would say is uh the the the the head of Huawei uh who was imprisoned in in Canada with no case in Canada but just because the Americans wanted her so she was in prison in a Canadian prison uh for two and a half years um and so it's that's not a that's not a reason right you can I'm but there is there is definitely I mean they hide under this thing about you know we are a democracy uh we allow all kinds of things to happen but clearly there are red flags that are being raised and these red flags come from a couple of places one uh is from a country like India it's not that India and Canada are unfriendly to each other uh we have fairly deep relationships um so you would think that in the interest of maintaining that they have gone they've sort of bent over backwards when Canada was wooing


sort of bent over backwards when Canada was wooing the Chinese uh to into sort of be sensitive in quotes to all of China's sensitivities it only I mean only when things sort of fell apart because of America that they had to imprison this uh Wang from Huawei which then resulted in two Chinese two Canadian citizens uh being imprisoned for exactly the same length of time in China I mean China really took the tough line which is you have my you have my person in custody I am putting your two of your citizens in custody you take one of mine I take two of yours is that maybe that's the reason why they're not doing it no I'd see you know we are not China yeah we would never be able to to do that and we and we shouldn't correct there is a there are certain uh I mean we have certain Behavior modes as well um which is why the huge investment by Canada into India correct because it's a functioning democracy correct and you know they


it's a functioning democracy correct and you know they know that their their Investments are safe their people are safe when they are in India uh you know another uh thing which um the this statement which says that a farcical exercise was held by extremists and radical elements supporting the so-called kalistan referendum in Canada and elsewhere this is what the external Affairs Ministry spokesperson said I mean clearly India is not going to ignore as I said uh you know the earlier way that oh okay so the kalisanis are doing this in in Canada so it's not impacting us but it is impacting India now because there's a whole you know there are events which are happening in India which are clearly driven by Palestine is whether it is coming via Pakistan or whether it is like a deliberate attempt in India you're seeing kalistani graffiti in India I mean since the 80s you and I have you know remember the 80s yes we we have gone through that when we were younger we've seen that


through that when we were younger we've seen that yes don't want that again happening yes but you know and you and therefore the role of Pakistan becomes is actually not highlighted enough I think uh if I think uh there was a Pakistan Embassy official who actually visited the two one uh the two gurdwaras that uh in in Vancouver I think just around the time of the referendum okay and if you remember uh the sensitivities when we opened the qatarpur corridor uh about uh khalisani elements using the qatarpur corridor then it was a serious uh security uh sort of con red flag that had been put up Pakistan has been using in fact for the definitely for the last few years Pakistan has been on a mission to revive the kalistan movement uh not merely in Pakistan but in UK and in Canada with where a large number of um sort of uh diaspora Punjabi Sikh diaspora live um in Canada it's it it makes it difficult also for two other other sort of groups of


difficult also for two other other sort of groups of people one is the groups of Sikhs who are not Allied to the khalistan movement but because they get tired they keep quiet because they also are probably under threat as well so they can't say anything the other is it it creates tensions between the Hindus and the Sikhs living in Canada um and that cannot be good for uh for Canada so you know this is something that we and and there is as you said there is a long string of events that we've been seeing in the in the most recent uh months and the last couple of years uh there was this attack on a Gurdwara in Punjab which is which was traced back I think the seeks for justice Group which is banned in India but operates openly in Canada um they um actually took responsibility for it um a different uh a different network and a different ecosystem uh was was witnessed when we saw the sidhu moose Wala murder so you know there are these


moose Wala murder so you know there are these layers and if you were Canada you would you would want to think twice about them the question is why does Canada not uh red flag these problems that might affect its relationship with India so so what are Justin Trudeau's political compulsions like does he have like we have here a vote Bank politics is that his uh political compulsion that he cannot take because he's got people in his cabinet who will not uh allow any kind of you know some kind of an action to be taken against the kalistanis certainly that is part of it um I mean these there is uh he has the he has his own vote Bank politics I mean to believe that vote Bank politics are in some in countries like you know poor countries with large population and diverse societies like ours that's true everybody has wood Bank politics I mean the Democrats have have it the Tories have it the the labor party and the Liberals in Canada have it so um and the


Liberals in Canada have it so um and the Sikhs are definitely a part of that some of those some of those Gurdwara some of the day now these are all wealthy people yeah remember the days are not uh sort of uh down in the down in the mouth kind of guys yeah but there are wealthy people in America also uh wealthy Sikhs in America and the gurdwaras have bhagat Singh uh and the same at the same time they have bindrawali in the same Gurdwara you you know both the pictures are there and there is even in some of the parades that are held there are kalistanis in that also but somehow they don't have that kind of political backing like they have in Canada well that is true because America is like India completely focused also on its own security concerns and you know it's not just 911 that but Post 9 11 and these 21 22 years the fault lines in the security in American society that could you know create security tensions for America I


that could you know create security tensions for America I think the the American system is sort of fully infiltrated through all of these the security Canada I think Canada is so it's an enormous country no people immensely wealthy uh all educated there is a there is an exceptionalism there okay yeah I mean we all talk about American exceptionalism or Indian exceptionalism but there is also this Canadian exceptionalism thing you know but we are this wonderful democracy that and this the thing is about this wonderful way before 9 11 kanishka bombing happened yes indeed and you would think that it it would hit them more no no because I mean go that I think kanishka bombing remains a blot in Canada and I have spoken to many officials Canadian officials who say that you know we cannot forget the kanishka bombing true uh I mean but cut to the 2000s uh large swaths of Canadian real estate was being given off to the Chinese who came in and bought because they didn't want to spend


in and bought because they didn't want to spend the money in their own country and they bought large swaths of land Etc in in Canada moved to Canada until they became a security threat so do you think that like you've given me the Nexus so you've spoken about the Nexus between Pakistan and the kalistanis it's a real Nexus Nexus do you think that like what you're saying is that if the Chinese are buying property they would be influencing politics too and you know there's a grand plan between the China Pakistan Nexus against India so you know to to use the fissures that exist in India already to make that larger and you know do you think that or am I being too much of an alarm is still here look uh we have no evidence right now but it is not inconceivable I mean uh if the if the points all match there's nothing to say that I mean China and Pakistan are collaborating in Bangladesh yeah so there is nothing to say that they are not they


there is nothing to say that they are not they would not be collaborating in Canada yeah uh so and so yes I mean I I would say that certainly that would be one of the things that the Indian system would would be very very uh sensitive and concerned about because you know we do have uh social Fishers we have uh there are security threats of variety uh of you know of of varying degrees and varying kinds um that ending government in India would have to be extremely extremely alert to right you know I'm going to come back to this whole students thing because the advisory was also about tourists and about you know uh students who are going to study there now I couldn't find a countrywise breakup in in Canada but it's estimated that Indian students make about 35 percent now that's a large number and given the kind of advisory you know parents who are sending their kids to America who sent their kids in sorry not America to Canada um they'd be worried right now how safe are


um they'd be worried right now how safe are Indian children in universities there and if if you were a parent who has a kid studying in uh in University or working in in Canada uh how worried should they be and what is the precaution that they should take in your view so just to give you some numbers um you know last year that was 21 uh Canada issued 217 000 student visas to Indians and only 105 000 student visas to China that is uh very interesting and just this year I mean and this is you know when uh when in the middle of it in the middle of covid when actually people were taking deferred admission or not going and things yeah and uh I think we haven't completed 22 but I think until until the first half of the uh year we've already sent 60 000 students to Canada right and uh which by the way is only second to the Americans I mean the Americans the at the at the top of the list India is number two uh so that that's just two but


is number two uh so that that's just two but to go back to your question yes of course you know I mean if I am a parent um and my daughter was going to Canada to study an advisory would like this would make me wonder I would probably burn up the phone lines with her every day um and uh but you know people who are uh from I would probably see the advisory the minute it was issued yeah but but I would imagine that in large number of parents uh may not see that advisory instantly or a large number of their children may not see that advisory instantly and uh how they would be able to deal with it or how they um manage anxieties and parentalings anxiety is a real thing as you know perfectly well so you know I mean you wouldn't have seen it because you know a large number of students or large number of people who go to Canada the Visa is issued yeah many I think more than 50 65 of them are from Punjab and some


50 65 of them are from Punjab and some of them you know come from rural Punjab who probably not up with what the mea puts out as an advisory sure so you know they come from from you know economically backward sections they go there to Canada they're doing double shift sometimes they're studying in the day in a college or in a in a vocational College trying to get a degree at the same time work so you know there's a lot of anxiety that these people are under anyway when they are abroad and funds are less right I mean the jobs are less the pressures are too much uh post covet there aren't enough jobs going for immigrants especially so how does one deal with this should they be advised about these things before they leave for Canada or should the Indian consulates and Embassy in uh in Toronto put out in in Ottawa Toronto Vancouver sorry the other places where there are a number of Indians should they be training them putting out advisories what should they do


training them putting out advisories what should they do well couple of things one uh I mean remember that for Punjab Canada is like the Holy Grail everybody I mean isn't that this temple temple in Punjab which has a an airplane on top which is sort of the the aspiration I mean it's kind of aspiration yeah become religion but it I mean we make jokes about it sure but it is a big thing for the Punjab for the average Punjabi to be able to they sell their land they you know they do all sorts of stuff taken terrible unsustainable debt to send children to to Canada right uh in the hope of a better life obviously yeah which is um now I don't know if you remember but I think it was last year maybe it was the year before uh that there were these uh videos of these young uh kids from Punjab who had fallen prey to uh drug rackets prostitution rackets because they just had to make ends meet and are their parents after


had to make ends meet and are their parents after sort of almost killing themselves to provide the money for the passage really didn't have anything anymore uh to give to them so it is a there is there are there are human tragic stories as well which is part of this whole state to state uh issue and so what should we do you know first we have to at least in India we need to understand the depth of the punjabi's desire to migrate to Canada it is beyond a joke right now I mean it is a that it's a real thing yeah there is what are the drivers and certainly we it the state government in Punjab or certainly central government there should definitely be an Outreach at the at the local levels to educate people advise them sensitize them about realities in Canada what they see in pictures what they see in movies uh Etc it's just not it maybe also like okay uh that to burst the bubble is another thing but also to teach them how to


is another thing but also to teach them how to assimilate maybe when you when they go you know that's one that's the next step first is to the The Next Step should definitely be a one-month crash course in assimilation in how do you integrate in Canadian society and something to that to that effect it is I mean sure I think the a mission in maybe they do some of it already you know uh the Indian Missions but certainly the Indian Missions should uh take up this thing about because you know these are kids like why why is it that it doesn't happen see even gujaratis have been going in large numbers remember the the family of entire family and they've all they were doing is being illegal immigrants into America part of that racket so there are rackets these rackets these immigration rackets are they include Canada to walk across from a Canadian from Canada across into some some of the you know the Midwest uh but you don't hear these horror stories of somebody being beaten up


hear these horror stories of somebody being beaten up or somebody being or a motel owned by a Patel which is being vandalized just because there are gujaratis yeah but you know I mean look there was a I think it was in May or June this year or just the other day there was this uh swaminarayan Temple that got yeah that got vandalized and but that's by the kalistan Again by the kalistanis and that goes to uh this uh the divisions between the Hindus and the Sikhs in can in in Canada the Indian origin one do you think that the that what happened in Leicester is similar kind of a thing or do you see do you see this kind of thing spreading now to other countries as well what happened so to if to to go back to my previous point the I'd say that if the Indian government in the Indian Mission has a duty to uh maybe keep tabs on these people on the students um the Canadian government certainly has a duty to make


the Canadian government certainly has a duty to make sure that the communities that live Indian origin communities that live that they should go out of their way to make sure that there is peace between these two communities yeah and uh I mean let us not let us not get into the blame game we know that there is a khalistan extremist Network there something like this if not nipped not there's no nipping in the bud anymore but certainly if it is not controlled or contained there will be responses from other parts other communities as well if you remember there was this one incident recently where it was a fast food joint and there was this man who came and started yelling at an Indian he was probably a South Indian because he had come you know the accent or whatever he got angry with him and you know you're a cow piss Drinker and you're a vegetarian and started screaming and yelling and there was no way to figure out it was only towards the end of his rant which was


was only towards the end of his rant which was a very very long rant when he said Indira Gandhi and things then people figured out that he was probably a kalistani and then you know post that event and they said oh he's a kalistani but initially it seemed like he was just an American who was screaming you know so that's that's exactly the point I mean you if the thing is it helps nobody if communities who live in a country um particularly who have their origin in a different country energy cannot get along it is but to to go to the York a very good question about Leicester whether Leicester has any lessons I'd say Lester has a lot of lessons for uh I mean they may not be the same and this the trigger in Leicester were a couple of different things uh it was uh supposedly whatever it was it was a cricket match it was a sadhvi uh visit and so but then that became an Hindu Muslim thing that became a Hindu Muslim thing


Muslim thing that became a Hindu Muslim thing and in India Pakistan thing this this could just be an India India thing right because that's just what it happens right yes it becomes very difficult for say a white Canadian or a white American to say tell the difference yeah tell the difference because they look the same probably because not every uh Sikh is a turban wearing seat right so they could be without turbans and the women you can't tell at all right but in the Indian women uh do women or the Christian Indian Christian Indian Hindu Indians seek they all look the same to anybody and they look the same to us too as Indians right so this this becomes an issue uh for for Americans or for Canadians to figure out what's happening so I I've met many Canadians who say like didn't this get resolved many years ago when the whole khalistan thing and you talk to them about it didn't this get resolved a whole and uh the same thing now Indians are saying the same thing


same thing now Indians are saying the same thing too that why has this started all over again is this it started all over again largely because we have a neighbor that is uh that is an inimical neighbor and it is it it it works for them to resurrect things like this because these are all low-cost proxy war uh efforts so but we recognize them the Canadians probably need to be you know probably we need a much longer deeper security conversation between Indians and Canadians to truly get the get to the bottom of this I mean at some point Canada will have to figure out that it's domestic politics uh interferes with its uh foreign policy you know we were talking about uh making um making Indians more receptive to understand the cultural uh differences and how to assimilate in the country that you are going to it also happens with some basic basic terms that we use you know they get misinterpreted so much for example um like somebody might just turn around and say oh I'm a pure


might just turn around and say oh I'm a pure vegetarian what does that mean exactly so when you go it's only those who are well traveled in India it's a very common term to say I'm a pure vegetarian it only means in India that I'm a vegetarian who doesn't eat egg also that hence a pure vegetarian so if you have cake fishes fish is vegetation right so a vegetarian could have so many interpretations had means a pure vegetarian is like I'm a see now you've complicated matters further right terms when you when you use that say Canada or the us or UK are you calling me impure and then even this I've seen this even in second generation Indians you know Indian American second generation Indian Canadian second generation Indian Brits the kids turn around and say what's this pure vegetarian are you being castist because they think pure vegetarian you're trying to say you're a brahmana so it's like oh are you trying to say that you're a vegan when you say pure vegetarian how


you're a vegan when you say pure vegetarian how do you make anybody understand this so this is a very simple yeah I don't know absolutely it's a there are and see so for some countries you don't need to have that uh sort of Education or sensitizing sensitization uh lessons perhaps in say America you don't you didn't need it indrani but now everybody's become hypersensitive well that's also that is everywhere in the world you know I mean outrage is the dominant dominant emotion across the world right now I cannot only tell you that my outrage is bigger than yours but it is and uh we find lots of things to be too outrage about but as I I mean you know you didn't have to worry about these things with say America you did suddenly you found you had to worry about uh integration and assimilation in Australia failure remember a few years ago we ran into a similar a huge problem on the student front uh so that again you know some degree of


front uh so that again you know some degree of sensitization is important because there are you know where as so during our time perhaps or maybe before us a certain class migrated because they yeah sure absolutely now you are it now the whole process is democratized yeah it is spread to at two parts of the country that maybe didn't have the same upbringing that you did correct and uh for them yeah it's uh uh I once had a uh sadar woman newlywed uh sitting next to me on a flight from here to to London and she she was fully dressed in her Bridal outfit and she said she said I said you played London and she said she said I said I said she said because she has been married off to a bartender in L.A and she was going from Roper District in Punjab fully as a bride to a completely new world I have no idea we've read enough books and we know what it is like I mean going with bags of sarees which nobody knew


going with bags of sarees which nobody knew that you have to starch them on your own and there's no starch and there's no start right so these are things you've read about uh you know but every generation of immigrants faces a new kind of Challenge and now I mean I think at that time probably in the 80s or 70s though that generation which went I mean I don't remember the 60s generation discussing with them but the 70s and 80s generation had a different kind of issue but it was not life or death but now it's become that it's become that serious so you know I mean really this government I mean the Modi government has a very strong diaspora uh Outreach and diaspora Outreach I think it's time for the the people managing that particular Outreach to make sure that your people are safe and and no it sort of arm them with tools of integrating in societies that they adopt um across across the world and yeah I think that's something that they should uh


and yeah I think that's something that they should uh they should take up uh you know you know I I saw the Canadian advisory and one of the things that really uh shocked me and I got annoyed but then I realized that maybe it's right is the whole marriage trap where they advise Canadians watch out because you could be tricked into marriage absolutely right so I don't want to think that about fellow Indians but it's true but at the same time I realized that I remember the time also in in UK the high commission was besieged and they still are besieged with Indian women who of you know who face Dowry related pressures you know it's even in the Pakistani women face this where where they're killed when they or honor killing honor killing honor killing is a big thing right okay but the whole honor killing thing Indian High commissions all over the world took it very seriously on educating the diaspora about these do you think that now it there's


about these do you think that now it there's need to even talk about not falling into you know the drug Trap by using you know Indians uh Indian students or Indians who go from poorer strata of society who go to Canada and fall victim to these gangs which are operating and use them as you know for drug mewling for prostitution and all kinds of rockets I'm you know I always hesitate to put everything at the feet of the government okay because if you look at our governments their government state capacity is pathetic okay in a very little State capacity I would say that communities that Community Elders or Community leaders should and should step in things like you know say the say temples have Community leaders for instance you know the swaminarayan temple they're a very very uh aware community and it would not it would not hurt them see these are your kids right these are your kids and frankly the we cannot say that everything should be the responsibility of the government so maybe the government could


the responsibility of the government so maybe the government could make them aware that now it's the time I think it's also families who have gone through this who need to set up support groups you know when you do have support groups for everything in this world now there needs to be you should have support groups for families in Punjab who send their children to uh to Canada and it have them talk to each other talk to parents and build build support networks Community Support networks to sort of keep their children out of trouble right and it is important too uh indrani like uh in in many countries which are wealthier countries of course uh schools have counselors College colleges have counselors and they counsel their kids when they it's that study abroad program right if they're doing a year of study abroad the council but in our schools I don't think we equip our kids we do only at a very uh only Elite schools Elite schools we don't we do there is no bandwidth frankly there are not enough


is no bandwidth frankly there are not enough schools in this country there are not enough teachers there are not enough counselors there are you know two to say that this would ideally you're right that ideally we should have uh this should be at the school level but no again there is a capacity constraint okay there is a capacity constraint and you're a 1.3 odd billion people with X number of schools which just do not add up so do you think that uh uh you know this the issue of uh kalistan and the issue of uh attacks on Indians this is something which uh which should now be escalated to the Prime Minister levels because you know Justin Trudeau and Prime Minister Modi did meet uh and should should it be escalated to that level for them to take it seriously enough for Canada to take it seriously enough you know uh um again I don't think that would help at this point it has to get it has to get to a certain point for it to get to prime


to a certain point for it to get to prime minister levels uh you know we when we talk about how do we resolve this I think we have to use a number of levers and one is certainly Community Society business you know as you said Can Canada Canadian Pension funds invest massively I mean just yesterday I think the Ontario teachers pension fund um said they would be investing some really large amount of money let me tell you how much um so and it would be five to ten percent of their teachers pension fund now remember Millions yeah billions billions yeah but remember that teachers pension Pension funds are the most that's where Pension funds go a lot of other Investments follow because Pension funds are the most strict uh scrutinized because they are taking money from teachers it's their pension that they are investing so we have we have the Ontario teachers pension fund but that says more about Indian uh you know India being a safe destination for investment it's actually Indian business you know remember these


for investment it's actually Indian business you know remember these are funds they're not bringing people here this is money so if India was not a safe destination for people this is not people people are not traveling right Aces only their money traveling if their money travels to a country if the country is volatile is so volatile that their people cannot come then why would their money come no I I know you want to draw distinctions yes I don't want you to hurt this section this is where you and I differ because money has other there are different metrics that Money Follows okay and that has to do with the stability of your financial system uh and your investment uh in environment it is to do with uh the areas that they invest in and look at what they invest in they invest in your new new age uh sectors you know your fintech your renewable energies your transition a lot of that cppib a lot of it is in their trans is in what they call transition funds helping companies move to a


they call transition funds helping companies move to a renewable Future these are all very uh um to use Hindi word okay um stuff but you know I mean that it it it would be we would have to use them too yeah for a sensitization at in Canada as well as you know Indians not time come to do that now I think I see Indians not going to tell Canadian investment we will not allow you to invest in India until you tell your people no that would be drastic insane and uh nobody is going to do that but I think at at popular levels too there has to be a greater uh sensitization of Canadian leaderships so you would today advise Indians uh that there is no need to panic but they need to be vigilant is that it I would say there definitely needs to need to be vigilant we there there is I don't think there is a need need to panic certainly but I would say that where the government should get in is to act actively call for uh


should get in is to act actively call for uh a deeper security dialogue with with Canada I mean you know we are we are actually negotiating a sepa correct NFTA and that should be done pretty soon there are complementarities between the Canadian economy and ours there's huge opportunities uh uh on both ends and uh you don't want the security the security to be a wrinkle in your relations and at the moment it is a very big Wrinkle in the relations right thank you so much for speaking with us indrani thank you very much that was a pleasure thank you for listening in to a i podcast with Smitha prakash like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have seen or heard this namaste foreign [Music]


Congress is the pivot of any non-bjp Coalition yes y-e-s yes okay we are not going to play anymore is it repackaging of Mr organ the undoubtedly is it strengthening of the congress party undoubtedly is it to take on the BJP and set a narrative for 2024 undoubtedly prime minister has said in 2009 I was the one who introduced the cheetah project you're watching Ani podcast with Smitha prakash now today we speak with jairam Ramesh he has been picked by uh the Gandhi family presumably to head the media and communication uh cell of the congress party now he he came in when there was already a pretty active media and communication cell Mr surjywala was heading it so everybody wondered what is it that he's going to bring new to the table because you know um he has a history of being Rahul Gandhi's daddy's boy in the sense that he was he worked in with Rajiv Gandhi's team with Sam petrona he worked with


Gandhi's team with Sam petrona he worked with Manmohan saying Dr Manmohan saying he worked with Sita RAM kesri and you know everybody before Rahul Gandhi came onto the political Spectrum so one wondered what he's going to bring to the table more of the Old Guard but not really he's become uh it's a new Avatar of jayram Ramesh that you're watching you're seeing him being super aggressive taking on the BJP on on every media platform on social media on traditional media uh and he's he's very angry you know when it comes to the way media has been uh so-called cheating him I spoke to him uh during the course of the interview about you know this victim mentality that the Congress has with regard to how the media treats and he came on pretty strong it was a very interesting talk so listen in as to what jairam Ramesh has to say about the media about Rahul Gandhi about Bharat joro about his term uh when he was a


joro about his term uh when he was a minister about his years in in IIT in MIT what it was like to work with all the stalwarts of the congress party and now with his new Avatar in Bharat jodo I thank you so much for coming with us and talking to Ani podcast with Smitha prakash there's something new that we've started we're already late we should have done this years ago but uh now you know it's like there are so many formats so you want to get into every format so we say said well why not start with this now there are several questions that I have I mean you speaking to the media every day but uh everybody right that's my job normally I wouldn't do it correct you are uh like the youngsters of today even the young journalists don't know that you were you're doing this long ago you were an anchor well in 94 95 you know I I had to make some money you know I couldn't survive on a government salary and at the


couldn't survive on a government salary and at the end of the month have 200 rupees or 300 rupees left in my bank balance so I had an offer from Ananda Bazar patrika they were doing a new television program on doordarshan called business breakfast so they asked me whether I want to Anchor it I said sure So 9 all of 95 and the first half of 96. uh you know it was good for my bank balance you're doing a Morning Show which is the morning four o'clock in the morning like I'm doing now in the Bharat jodo yatra uh it's taken up at four my guests would come to the studio in safdarjung Enclave at six and we would go through the days headlines on economics it was economics and business remember it was 95 96 a completely different India it was it was an India that was opening up in India in which the corporate sector had still to become the Colossus that it has become today uh and everybody came I I you


become today uh and everybody came I I you know for for 18 months I did this program there's one critic who called you the Aishwarya Rai of yeah yeah you know all sorts of names were you embarrassed we told me that absolutely but it was fun it was fun we were getting different uh different people on the show getting businessmen business women getting economists getting government servants uh you know and did couple of political leaders it was not a political shows method it was a business business show yeah it was to highlight a business perspective and it was to take the day's morning headlines you know which you see in BBC and you know Channel 4 and all these other newspapers and just go over and try to look beyond the headlines to get to the real stories of the day yeah you just tweeted you know you saw that leopard picture somebody had tweeted in IIT and you talked about your years when you were in 20 years on campus never saw a leopard in my


years on campus never saw a leopard in my life never 12 years I was on campus yeah you see what has happened is just across the pipeline the water Pipeline and the IIT campus this is the Arab milk colony and then there is the borivali you know the national park human habitation is also coming human encroachments have taken place human habitations have taken place the leopards are moving out this is happening not only in poha it's happening across the country and the leopard unlike the tiger is a very sociable you know it's a very adaptable animal the tiger is a forest animal but the leopard is an urban animal so you'll find the leopard in gurgaon you'll find faridabad you know and they go after cats they go after chicken so you went to IIT you went to Carnegie Mellon uh and I mean there's a huge body of work which you are doing you did PhD I did all the things that you know normal middle class South


all the things that you know normal middle class South Indian family yeah families are expected so you did engineering because your dad said you're 100 yeah 16 uh I had no intention of joining IIT my father was a professor in IIT so he forced me to join IIT Bombay I'm so glad that I at the age of 21 when I got my degree I just I was never been there like that when people introduced me as an engineer I always correct them I say I'm not an engineer I'm somebody who is an engineering degree I got it by mistake what engineering mechanical okay so I gave the IIT entrance got in then I you know did everything that what IIT graduates normally do applied to go abroad so I've got a scholarship went abroad but then I did something which no IIT graduates ever did at that time and still don't do we just come back to India so I came back to India in 1980. you abandoned your PhD actually after one and a half years


your PhD actually after one and a half years I just discovered this is not my cup of tea okay I couldn't complete uh you know MIT yeah I would take four years to complete and then at the end of it I'd be an academic so just I didn't have the intellectual rigor at that time and I came back I had a good offer I came back in 80. so that's something that was somewhat alien to what my generation in the 80s coming back in the 80s and applying for a cooking you know for a LPG connection applying for a phone didn't have a car I had a barsati in Anand look you're married then no no no no 1981 okay and also you know we are getting to that promise you we you I'm just going chronologically chronology there's no connection between my life and about no you are a strategist I want to get to why you uh you've been picked to be the strategist for media for the Bharat jodo why has the Gandhi family picked


Bharat jodo why has the Gandhi family picked you I think you should ask Mr Sonia next time I am going to come to you to tell her to come to this podcast is I certainly request her I certainly tell her that I was asked why you have appointed me and you are the only person I would have asked this to nurse who picked you I would have asked you to VP Singh who picked you I would have asked Sita Ram kesri who picked you I would have to ask Dr Manmohan Singh who picked you I would have asked who picked you and now you're telling me I shouldn't go into your past no so the God has you know been kind to me no no the men in the Congress besides the Gandhi family have been kind to you all have seen your potential and please don't tell you what I'll tell you the Secret of My Success I was the first man to start using a laptop ah okay I started using a laptop in 1990.


ah okay I started using a laptop in 1990. I was probably the first man in government of India to have a laptop I had a small Zenith laptop it was made in Rajiv Gandhi's computer voice computer I was the first one who had a laptop okay it was a literally a laptop it was made in Taiwan got into India it seeps the Santa Cruz electronic processing zone so I was one of the probably the first and I certainly was the first to get an email address okay email address vsnl.com I was probably the first man to get a vsnl.com email address this was like 96. okay so yeah I mean the fact that I had a laptop I had a portable printer when I had an email address among all the dinosaurs who wanted triplicate me though why would you with all this American Education you would have got a good corporate job why did you oh no I never wanted to get into the corporate sector no I mean the one thing that has always been with me


mean the one thing that has always been with me I wanted to work in the public domain so that's why you know in 81 when I 80 when I came back I started working in the government of India and I worked in different I worked in the ministry of Industry then Dr Manmohan Singh recruited me into the Planning Commission with a couple of others so I worked in the you know various finance ministry so I worked in the government of India I was a what what is today what Mr Modi calls lateral service I was one of the products of the lateral service in the 80s Monte Carlo Walia for example myself we all joined laterally with the Indian lateral service and so in 90 what happened was when the change took place when VP Singh became the Prime Minister I just want to call on Mr Rajiv Gandhi whom I had known because I'd worked with Mr Sam petrota so he asked me what are you doing so I said sir this is what I'm doing


so I said sir this is what I'm doing you know and then he said well it doesn't sound very exciting why don't you come and work with me for the elections so I said elections are you going to call have elections soon so he said could be this was December of 19 uh 90. right so I started working with Mr Gandhi in December of 1990 and so that's how my political Journey started and uh May 1991 I was assassinated and you know Mr narasimha obviously I whom I'd never met in my life right no I mean original same state as you are okay she has to speak to your father in Canada okay but uh there is some connection to uh Andhra also I was an MP from Andhra for two terms from 2004 to 2000 uh 16. I was an MP for two terms that didn't bring you close to nursing around no no no no no no no no he wasn't parochial in that respect no no [Music] so I started working with him


no no [Music] so I started working with him uh and then uh then you know Congress lost power in 96. uh Mr chilambaram asked me to join him in the finance ministry when he was always this this kind of a bureaucratic rajya Sabha I mean that's the criticism that you've been around for 40 years but you haven't come for an election I mean I never wanted to fight an election why I know I mean first of all I don't have the resources to fight an election number one number two I don't think I'm cut out for uh 24x7 political life you know I have other interests in life I like to read I like to write I like to travel uh so and that's right is the most difficult job in our country it's a thing thankless job it's a 24x7 job and I've seen many of my colleagues you know and I admired their tenacity and I admired their endurance and I knew from day one that if I am in politics I'm going


one that if I am in politics I'm going to be a backroom political animal I'm going to be and you know I even I'm going to be an intellectual in politics although the intellectuals think I'm a politicians and the politicians think I'm an intellectual exactly now I didn't want to say this is the worst the worst abuse you can get in politics is normally you know buddhijiwi is supposed to be a sign of you know good Acceptance in fact politician calls you Buddhism you're too well read yeah too well read for politics because politics once told me either yes one interview or something that or you gave or somebody said that it was a comment that you make did passing that you know you probably you know the well-read people in the Congress don't find their uh upward trajectory very quick uh this was years ago you know it's it's you know it's tragic because in the 50s Indian politics was entirely different the Indian Freedom Movement was all well-read


entirely different the Indian Freedom Movement was all well-read people yes extraordinarily well read and they wrote books and they didn't have ghost written books they wrote books on their own you know unlike many people in politics who have ghost written books ghost writers these people Raja kabalachari nehru Bose Gandhi Patel all of them were all extremely well-read people and professional people that changed that changed somewhere in the 60s and 70s because and I'm you know I don't regret it because us Indian politics itself changed the nature of Indian politics changed uh it became more competitive it became more populist it became much deeper into the ground democracy became deeper isn't that what it should be no that's the way it should be because still the I would say till the late 60s politics was still sort of a you know aristocratic middle class well-educated people coming from you know well-to-do backgrounds professional backgrounds but that chain and I'm glad it changed because today if there is one instrument of


it changed because today if there is one instrument of social mobility in India it's not the media it's not the corporate sector it's not the bureaucracy it's politics its politics has given voice and identity to people from sections of society which have been discriminated and disadvantaged for centuries and yet at one point of time when you were asked whether you know you'll get another term in rajya Sabha you'd said the congress party is not going to nominate me to the Sabha I'm not a dual caste woman Muslim backward or anything I don't have a Godfather godmother tomorrow if I were to join BJP my chances of nomination would be probably much brighter maybe I don't remember that remark there are many remarks attributed to me okay you know there are many remarks attributed to Mahatma Gandhi for example which you never made or Lincoln one of the one of the most famous comments of Gandhi which he never made was that the world is enough for everybody's need but not


the world is enough for everybody's need but not enough for everybody's greedy never said that but we like to think that he said it okay so that's one of those comments that uh did you get miffed at times when if you didn't get a job you had to quit you because you didn't play to the gallery you didn't do the Jesus you decided see remember from 98 to 2004 we were down in the dumps and in 2004 nobody expected us to win least of all Congress leaders all senior Congress leaders barring Mrs Gandhi and one or two other people were convinced that Mr vajpayee was coming back because and you had to run the War Room at that time starting the War Room at that time me and Salman khushil were the only two people running the War Room it was a two rooms 99 South Avenue didn't which didn't have a toilet and which we had to go to the nearby cladurgus Hotel every time you know we had to use the toilet yeah and


you know we had to use the toilet yeah and um it was it was no not even khichdi the khichdi comes after remembering UPA is formed after but our entire campaign in 2004 and as Mr vajpai was asked once by the kawha so in his inimitable Style remarkeda this is a victory that the victors didn't expect and this was a victory that the losers didn't expect and the meteor also I think was not giving you much to nobody but you know we had done a we had done a opinion poll uh which we then selectively not planted but selectively shared with sections of the media which showed that the Congress could well emerge as the single largest party and I remember this there was shock there was consternation even amongst my senior colleagues how can the Congress you know be the single largest party but the fact is that we immersed as a single largest party in 2004. in 2009 of course uh we were the party in power I still ran


uh we were the party in power I still ran the campaign in 2009 but nevertheless it was an easier camp been because we were running it as a incumbent government and I actually to be honest with you I did not expect to get more than 175 or 180 seats my late friend and his colleague who worked with me Mr Ahmed Patel and I were comparing notes before the counting day and you know our most optimix optimistic assessment in 2009 was maybe 175 to 180 we ended up getting 2009 and 209. at that time 2009 and we were the second largest party in up we got 22 seats in up this was in 2009 just 13 years ago see now of course you're writing our obituaries so you know it's the moral of the story you never know arbitrary of the congress party and best laid plans of mice and men right in 2004 what the whole uh feel was that you know of India shining at that stage and you've worked with narsimara you were in the


you've worked with narsimara you were in the you were in OSD at that time right you've worked in that you knew that uh you know they were talking about um the India shining thing why couldn't you at that time say that hey we had the 1991 reforms we were the ones who ushered in somehow the congress party doesn't Embrace that much starter we knew it is a non-starter we did dipstick Service uh and we and we found that there was a lot of uh you know there was a lot of disappointment that their people's lives had not changed and there was this big image being portrayed of India shining and in fact this line came from a Vox pop that we did with a with a group of people in sonipat one you know in his own accent said India shining us don't you feel that I mean it's only now like see when nirmala Sita Raman says that they were that you know the reforms were incomplete or something then you get up to


were incomplete or something then you get up to defend or not you as such but I mean the congress party it's never given due to that period and never oh that's not exactly true but remember just the open Columns of maybe this party is basically a center left party it's not a left of center party it's a center left party it's traditionally been a center-left party and there was ambivalence in the congress party on the 91 reforms there was ambivalence and Dr Manmohan Singh a tremendous problems navigating these reforms not just the left parties who were in The Coalition within the congress party the majority of the Congress MPS were very ambivalent on the reforms that you know were introduced it took Dr Manmohan Singh's intellectual ability and manmo and Mr narsimras political skills to help navigate these reforms in 91 and 92. now once the reform started showing results then what started off as compulsion people then became convinced you know narasimharav didn't believe in these


you know narasimharav didn't believe in these reforms in 91. he you know we would discuss every day and he would say this is my compulsion but by 93 Mr narasim Rao would go to Davos and say this is my conviction so compulsion becomes conviction not right when you see that people have benefited results were coming out you know for investment was coming the headlines were good kind of confused as to where you stand because of this but at the same time you your anti-bt brinjal you were anti and your your whole tenure as environment Minister you you talk about anti-mining activities that mine is mining it doesn't so where do you stand I can't figure out are you naxal and extreme left ideology I don't have an ideology I'm not extreme left I'm not centered right either I must I'm an extreme Centrist extreme Centrist and I think what is Extreme Central extreme Centrist is you try to find the middle ground at every point of time you find the


middle ground at every point of time you find the middle ground and if you don't find the middle ground there are some times in which you don't find the middle ground then you go by the book so the reason why I threw the book at vedanta on name is because they had violated every single environmental law the reason why I threw the book at lavasa uh you know although lavasa had a lot of political backers is because lavasa never had any environmental clearances the reason why I threw the book on BT brinjal was simply because that the scientific Community itself was not convinced that BT brinjal was in India's best interest so I came out later right there is a jayanti tax and there was the environment much later but I don't want to talk about that but I can tell you about my tenure today uh well today we are talking the entire country is excited by cheetah and our prime minister has said in 2009 I was the one who introduced the cheetah project I


was the one who introduced the cheetah project I saw your Twitter put out the letter to show that the Prime Minister stratified right I'll tell you why it didn't Rectify I went to South Africa in 2010 I identified the place where we were going to get cheaters and some people went to the Supreme Court because you were bringing the lines and the Cheetahs to live in the same place they will live one day mark my words mark my words lions and cheetah if you have been to East Africa lions and cheetahs share the same habitat yeah but lions and cheetahs shared the same habitat unfortunately the lion in India is not it's become a matter of Pride it's a matter of politics nobody one person does not Supreme Court has said we must develop a second home for the lion the second home for the lion was Kuno Kuno was developed as a home for the for the geared lion but but one man says no no this is Gujarati asmita I


says no no this is Gujarati asmita I will not let the lion go from gear and that's why you know that Kuno had to be developed as a cheetah habitat now the point I'm making is that this again is an example uh the people went to the Supreme Court and for Supreme Court for seven years why would the Supreme Court of India have to decide whether cheetah should be introduced or not it was a forest bench this is a matter of fact all environment related issues not when I was Minister not when I was minister the reason why it goes to Judiciary is because the executive is not functioning it this is the job of the executive the job of the Judiciary is not to take decisions on behalf of the executive it is to interpret the laws not to implement the laws so uh there was another thing that had happened was that when I think uh I don't recall exactly was when uh you were castigated at one point of time for bringing in the uh


at one point of time for bringing in the uh the Chinese Telecom uh you were in China and you said that the home Ministry is being extremely we should we should have we should be more pragmatic in Hinds exactly in hindsight do you by the way I worked very well with the Chinese on the climate change negotiations I set up the basic Group which was Brazil South Africa India and China and we worked very well together it was a different China it was not it was not it was uh prime minister bow I know of course the president but the premier was we worked very well I went to China three times a year the Chinese came here three times a year we met in different parts of the world and we collaborated at Copenhagen we collaborated very well look the bureaucracy Chinese change later the Chinese changed later and the the dominant Paradigm of we we have our differences but let's set our differences aside and let's work out areas of cooperation was the Paradigm that was


out areas of cooperation was the Paradigm that was set in December of 1988 when Mr Rajiv Gandhi and dung Xiaoping met now unfortunately the Chinese decided to break that Paradigm in 2020 and today that model is broken so we have to reset our entire relationship today if you were to ask me today if you were to ask me would I advocate Chinese investments in India I would say no but there was a time when I said let's get the Chinese let's let Indian investors go to China I remember TCS I remember Infosys orobindo Pharma Tata steel Apollo tires I went with them to China so let's I said investment is a two-way process that Chinese companies come to Huawei came to Bangalore exactly came to Bangalore I was a user of Huawei Huawei had a tie up with Tata Telecom at that point of time so there was a time when I advocated that's how they were trying to get their interests Indians also should do the same thing no so Indian Investments


also should do the same thing no so Indian Investments also were being promoted in China Chinese Investments were being promoted in India but in today's environment you know my approach to China has changed you know I wouldn't Advocate the same approach we have to get the politics of our relationship back uh on on the track it was before March 2020. March 2020 was clearly a turning decisive Turning Point yeah things have to be reacted yeah absolutely we have to go back I mean you can't have a situation where you know the status quo entity has been Disturbed unilaterally okay let me get now to the present yes yes how did you get picked uh to be the general secretary foreign [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] and we were being you know attacked we were being attacked by the BJP we are being attacked by our own colleagues like-minded parties of course we were the favorite Target of the media so you know but then when you keep losing it's not targeting the party


when you keep losing it's not targeting the party huh get this I'm not I'm not speaking on behalf of the media but generally when when the party doesn't even want to fight when the party doesn't even want to save a government which is in the doldrums because of various Mecca Nations which are happening the leadership doesn't even try then will the other parties will the media will writers operate editors whatever will they not write and say and then the Congress says bashing is a favorite pastime not only for right-wingers unfortunately Congress bashing has become a favorite Pastor immune for liberals okay and even for so-called secular commentators don't you think because the Liberals get irritated very easy target congress come on can you imagine in this country it is being an easy target when is it really easy target it's a very easy target you try targeting the BJP and you will be finished but the BJP used to say the same thing and you've been in politics the Prime Minister


thing and you've been in politics the Prime Minister you tried targeting the home minister did you be finished could anybody Target Mr chidambaram when he was home minister in the media he was oh come on operations anybody the only person a mythical operation greenhunt he was accused of he was accused of could anybody Target Mr Prana Mukherjee could anybody Target Sonia Gandhi when the UPA was in power servant of reliance he was called you know reliance Reliance Reliance Mukherjee Reliance Mukherjee so you think it's not happening with adani Ambani today you guys are not no no what is it the congress party is doing it also in those days there was no social media if you remember this is a new phenomenon where this whereas the point is basic point we are living in the world of jio right you know what I mean so no I don't know our policy is though no that is not the policy of the bjb BJP is only jio no


policy of the bjb BJP is only jio no mysterious when somebody put a Punjab on fire that you don't talk about of course it was talked about no no come on who criticized the RSS and the BJP for that do you know that when this this study on fire came up right if you remember Rajiv Gandhi's time there was this scorpionizing yeah read if that whole campaign that happened and at that time there was a rethink let's go back to the question that you had raised you know we're getting off into 20 different directions go back let's go back to the question okay fundamental differences that she's easy to bash the Congress because the Congress doesn't bash you back the con there is there is a certain degree of liberalism in the Congress still because maybe there's a truth it's not the truth it's just there it's the approach of the Congress suppose no that's why I've from 17th of June I have adopted a policy you attack me I'll attack you you


a policy you attack me I'll attack you you try to defame me I will issue a notice to you I will if you are if you are going to be aggressive I'm going to be double leg super aggressive so I am not going to take it lying down now unfortunately that's not that was not my policy before but in the job I am in I have to set a certain pattern I have to motivate the youngsters in my party um foreign [Music] I don't know act act a for regression C for conciseness Brothers foreign foreign I have to be by the way that's my job no why is a communication person's job Leader's job is to manage everybody right my job is to communicate okay if I do not communicate in a manner that induces and infuses confidence in the party worker in the party colleague I'm not doing my job frankly and I am not communicating my first Target of communication is internal it is to educate our own people inform our own people and choose our own


own people inform our own people and choose our own people and then they will develop the courage and they will have the instruments to take on our political opponents the number of seats that you have in Parliament you certainly punch above your weight you know you're there in all TV debates you're there in the social media you're everywhere so why do you say to some um this victim mentality have you seen the way anchors the way they go after everybody have you seen in we've had to we have had to boycott three channels right now we have removed the ban on one one of the three channels but the on the other two channels we have not driven what do you get by boycotting if you're not allowed to present your point of view if you are there to be insulted why go if see anchors are no longer anchors in this country anchors have become partisan players in the debate I can understand if you're an anchor your job listen to you listen to him listen to me and


listen to you listen to him listen to me and you know then allow each of us to have a debate and the anchor itself himself or herself becomes an aggressive participant and he wants to bash up everybody else who has a different point of view I don't think that's fair so you think the format of Television is has broken complete it's a it's a it's a it's no longer an honest debate it's no longer an informed debate it's the anchor trying to express anger it's not anchor it's anger you know that's all is and so is it an anger management part of a communication job but I can't manage incidentally we have removed the ban on one of the three channels which we were not going to we've removed the and our debate our spokesperson are going on Z even though z may be critical of us I don't mind if times now or Republic TV are critical of us I don't mind let them be critical but they must be fair means about giving you enough


they must be fair means about giving you enough time give me give must give us enough time they can't make fun of us they can't go after our spokespersons they can't run down our leadership and the language that you use also has to be somewhat dignified if you are also going to be descending to the level of the gutter that's not enough that doesn't make for a proper debate I don't like I don't like boycotting any channel frankly let me tell you I do not like boycotting anybody I like to listen to people who are critical I like to listen to you because your channel is always critical of my party so I like your your correspondent I like to listen to him I talk to him so I I don't want to collect only you know language on and yes people around me see us also but you have to give me you have to move one step ahead you have to take one step forward so I am I'm sorry to say that but you know we


am I'm sorry to say that but you know we are continuing I agree with you okay fine the channels I'm going to get out of but I do understand that uh you know that you you are miffed with some of them I get them with you also okay a lot of our people a lot of our senior leaders our spokespersons when I went to column when when I went to uh you know who's covering everything I was saying the first question I asked the first tweet first thing in the morning we always do your press conferences we always do your interviews even I can say that we have interviewed Priyanka Priyanka Gandhi twice twice we have interviewed one in the uh covet situation we didn't have a role at that stage and then secondly during the up election and it length and it was very lengthy showed but yeah foreign [Music] you were doing nothing so what do you expect if there is rigor mortise which is setting in in the party what do we say


is setting in in the party what do we say oh in action in the party that's news can we do that right it's only when you guys started moving that it became a story you're getting up in the morning at 6 30 and starting to move when all other political parties are sleeping so it's news I'm glad right I'm glad you've woken up so glad you have woken now right now let me get to that who decides who's meeting Rahul Gandhi and why did that meeting with the pastor happen Pastor was an accidental waiting it was no it was not a planned interaction at all these interactions are decided by the local pccs I see the decided by local leaders we can't sit and decide all we have said is that we have the first phase is from 7 to 10 30. so from 10 30 to 12 Mr Gandhi will relax will relax at 12 o'clock they have lunch it's from 2 to 3 they have an interaction four o'clock we start


to 3 they have an interaction four o'clock we start walking again till 7 30. so we have seven hours of walking we cover about 21 22 kilometers now in that particular instance what happened was after he addressed a press conference he went back to his room and while he was going back to his room there were a bunch of you know local that we the yatri was had was spending time at that church premises because the church premises was big it was a big Garden there was a big you know Courtyard so they said please can we have a discussion can we just have some tea for five minutes on the all his innocence he said fine and one guy was not supposed to record this interaction record it happens to be this pastor and then he made you know highly objectionable comments which were made even more objectionable by the media and then we immediately put out the video so which which debunked this whole thing so these interactions take place they're not scripted they see he


interactions take place they're not scripted they see he is the morning part of the yatra draws about 5 000 people they're not sanitized the interactions draw about 200 to 250 people they are not sanitized the second the part of the yatra which is from 4 to 7 30 draws 25 to 30 000 people they're all sanitized people are coming on their own now the only thing that can be sanitized is this formal interactions you know with students and yeah that after what happened in the first two days we are now taking a little more care for example now we are not allowing our interactions to be recorded we record it and we release the audio or the video as the case may be in this type of a program where he is meeting not only he all of us are meeting hundreds and hundreds literally hundreds and thousands of people it's impossible to outsave for for each and every individual right then what do you say about this whole thing that it is just basically repackaging of RG and


that it is just basically repackaging of RG and it is to motivate um to motivate the Cutters of the Congress rather than the the esoteric term of Bharat jodo no no it is a it is about a judo campaign in the context of the result of the policies of the Maori government which is leading to economic inequalities social polarization and political centralization that's the that's the political part of the Bharat Judo which is that you need Bharat jodo because Bharat is being told and Bharat is being told as a result of the ideologies and the policies of the government or particularly of the Mr modi's government and the RSS which is leading to in Econo economic inequalities which is leading to social polarization and which is leading to political centralization and that's why you need Bharat jodo the other objective which I am not fighting shy of admitting and saying it on every occasion it is to strengthen the congress party it is a mass contact program for the


congress party it is a mass contact program for the congress party which is after a long time has come on to the streets the district at the Block Level at the district level at the state level workers or coming out in hundreds and thousands literally and getting a new sense of participation so you don't see Congress happening one minute second part there's a third objective of course it's a new Mr Rahul Gandhi who's being seen day in and day out his endurance his his patience his uh his ability to connect with people his willingness to talk of course he's listening he's not giving sandesh like some others do every time they speak so these are the three objectives there is a political objective there is an organizational objective and there is an individual objective there's no doubt about it I'm not running away from admitting it now Mr Gandhi is very clear that he's not leading the Bharat yatra and you know he is you know one of 120 but I keep telling him that


know one of 120 but I keep telling him that the entire public focuses on you uh the media's focus is on you media doesn't want to interview me media wants to interview you right so he knows it but he is at pains even in the press conference at nagercoil he said when somebody asked him this question look I am one of the 120 people who are going to complete the 3700 kilometers but you know I understand that all of you are interested only in my movements I mean for example nobody else will be interested in what I am wearing or what I am you know what my shoes or my t-shirt t-shirt how I am sleeping where I am sleeping and all those things so there is this there is is it repackaging of Mr organic undoubtedly is it strengthening of the congress party undoubtedly is it to take on the BJP and set a narrative for 2024 undoubtedly what narrative is this for 2020. this narrative is that these are the three big


this narrative is that these are the three big challenges that India faces that the result of Mr modi's ideology and his policies is economic inequality is increasing polarization is taking place and is intensifying and political centralization is resulting in States getting weaker constitutional bodies getting weaker and the Constitution being ignored in more instances than these activities I want them to argue on our narrative I want the BJP to attack us on our narrative but they're attacking us on our t-shirts is this on our containers is also the uh one of the things that crappy exchange are we having with the BJP on a day-to-day basis I don't understand you you take objection I think is that lowest common no I mean it's ridiculous I become a political debate I have said this on when I responded on the t-shirt and the container debate and something else I said look these are the political objectives of the Bharat jodo yatra I am prepared for a debate on a daily basis and then


prepared for a debate on a daily basis and then you have this uh you know jhoot Ki Rani saying that he never he went to kanyakumari and didn't go and visit Vivekananda Memorial we put out a video he started Memorial do you want to reduce the debate to this this level of falsification is it is it also a message that you're sending out to the other political the non-bjp parties that uh that you know that you are or your party is the one which is going to be leading your fight against yes yes y-e-s yes okay we are not going to play anymore opposition Unity without a strong Congress is not possible so far the Congress has given more than what it has taken in any Coalition agreement Coalition means give and take Coalition is compromise I'm sorry to say that many parties like-minded parties have grown at the expense of the Congress we can't allow this to happen Congress has to be strong and the Congress we are not are you if you're asking me are


we are not are you if you're asking me are we doing this yatra for opposition Unity answer is no we are doing it for strengthening the congress party which we believe will be in the benefit of opposition Unity if and when this opposition Unity moves take complete shape in the run-up to 2024 right if and when that's not at the back of our minds opposition Unity everybody working on but everybody is working on leading the moves towards that you know we are not interested we are not talking of opposition Unity right now we are interested only in strengthening the congress party we are not interested in trying to project the Prime Minister for 2024 why we're not because our elections are not a beauty contest between individuals it's if the party is we sounds very uh catchy but it does become personalities because you people have made it that way but hasn't it we have political parties political parties have poll symbols they have manifestos they have organizations they have mobile of course they have faces


have organizations they have mobile of course they have faces yeah of course foreign what did I say I said our elections are not a beauty contest between individuals they are a choice of political parties so political party May it is headed by individuals not headed by elephants I know individuals who've been in the Congress who have lost and who have gone to the BJP and won why the same individual who is lost in the BJ in the Congress has won when the BJP ticket why because people are voting for The BJP people are voting for Mr Modi I'm not I'm not denying that fact people voted for Mr vajpai people voted for Mr Rajiv Gandhi people wanted it's a mixture of both party organization party ideology party symbols and individual leadership right now our challenge is to strengthen our organization bring it to a level of preparedness give our party workers a sense of belonging a sense of enthusiasm and a sense of we can do and we will do you become you know in spite of


will do you become you know in spite of them led by opposition parties that's what I'm saying yeah that's what I want you cannot be led sorry when I say led by what I meant to say is that we cannot we cannot dance to the tune of somebody else okay we are the Congress is the pivot of any non-bjp coalition anybody who thinks that the Congress is not going to be the pivot I'm afraid is living in a Fool's Paradise so it's a clear message for kcr it's a clear message foreign government I was Mr chidambaram was a finance minister I was his advisor and I knew I know what problems with David in the third front I've also worked I was a minister in a UPA government the upo is a different type of government it was not a third front government although the CPM kept out you know in Europe but by and large it was a the Congress was in and what gives stability what gave instability to David gowda's government was


what gave instability to David gowda's government was the fact that the Congress was out what gave instability to Chandra shekhar was outside report yeah that's what I mean that's what I mean but that's because you guys chose to upa-1 and UPA 2 was the fact that the Congress was in your priority is to just to strengthen congress party till 2024. this is your one first purest objective is must get must our first Milestone is we must reach 150 seats that's our first Milestone our second milestone will reach and what about the Congress presidential election if we have this podcast a week from now you'll know who the Congress president is you called me back on the first and we can discuss on the who the Congress president is right so that's the agenda you come back no on the first if there is no election if there is an election you call me back on the 19th and we can have a discussion but this whole thing I mean Rahul Gandhi keeps saying that


I mean Rahul Gandhi keeps saying that you know there will be an election and I'm not the one because everybody he's been saying and and then if anybody wants to contest if anybody wants to contest he's welcome I was sitting in trivandrum press conference next to one potential Contender and I was asked this question so I turned to the point why don't you name him I turn to the potential Contender and says you know we're a Democratic party whoever wants to contest can contested contest see I'll tell you you remember that period let me tell you in 137 years we've had elections only on four occasions 1938 when netaji Subhash Chandra Bose defeated Gandhi's candidate 1950 when purushottam Das tandoned supported by Sardar Patel defeated supported by jawaharlal nehru 1997 when sitaram kesri contested won against pilot in 2000 when Sonia Gandhi defeated Prasad we are the only political party which has a system for electing the president but why but once


system for electing the president but why but once again we're not a party we're not we have not always elected a president we have elected elected a president only four occasions in 137 years but we are the only party that has provision and as and has the system for electing the election I believe my personal belief I I have said so and I don't mind repeating it I am a great believer of the kavaraja model of management which is to find to talk to everybody find a consensus candidate this is what cameras did in 1964 this is what Cambridge did in 66 this is what cameras tried to do in 67 and you know in 67 there was an election but of course there was a compromise soon thereafter so I believe that this consensus creation model is a better model than the British model now today the result of it is in the British model you have truss lysters and all her supporters and Rishi sunak and his supporters are completely out it's a winner take


his supporters are completely out it's a winner take all model the consensus here the winner is going to be Rahul Gandhi regardless of who is if he's not Mr mother mystery has said very clearly there is no writing candidate you cannot write Rahul Gandhi on the uh you know on the ballot form the ballot form will only have it's only going to be Rahul Gandhi regardless of who becomes president right right you wait till the first look at it for the next five and a half months is going to be on the Bharat jodo yatra next five and a half months this is going to end only in the year so whoever comes in he will be the president for that note first you wait till the first look uh it's going to be the Gandhi family all the time no the controller occupies the Gandhi family occupies a special place in the Congress it occupies a unique place in the Congress doesn't the RSS occupy a unique Place uh in the in


the RSS occupy a unique Place uh in the in the business it's just that the people keep changing in the RSS right and people keep changing in the BJP but people don't change in the Gandhi family it's the family right I don't understand I don't frankly I don't understand the distinction that you're drawing the family has given the country three prime ministers right the family has an unparalleled record of service to the party and to the country the party in its wisdom the party because of its belief has decided to give the family a special place in his scheme of things I welcome that and it's a it's a reflection of reality the family has the family has contested election has lost election Indira Gandhi lost in 77 she was re-elected by the same electorate in 1980. Mr Gandhi was rejected by the electorate in 2019. so this is not this is not anmol Ambani or you know whatever Isha Ambani who cannot be will be rejected by the shareholders that's a private Enterprise


be rejected by the shareholders that's a private Enterprise so let's not even get the private Enterprise built on public resources so don't draw this distinction don't draw this distinction in private in public what I'm saying is okay in in the public domain there's a certain sense of accountability people can reject you people rejected Indira Gandhi people have rejected in Amity have rejected Mr Rahul Gandhi we can argue about whatever sheets in a private Enterprise whereas in a public so the Gandhi family has a unique place in the congress party they will continue to have are you if you're going if you're telling me that they will do backseat driving okay that's what you're saying whoever is the Congress president in Punjab huh you are not privy to uh neither am I privy to all that certainly not you if I am not privy you can't be privy yes sir the there are processes that go have been gone through before you know these decisions are taken these are not instantaneous


know these decisions are taken these are not instantaneous decisions that take it taken now if fear that you are expressing that whoever comes on this is bharata and Lord Rama is somewhere else he's in the ayodhya uh he's in the you know yatra he'll finish the yatra and then the padukas will be removed and he will you know I said you say shankaracharya you said it just like shankaracharya jodode India look at the comparison you're doing between Rahul Gandhi and shankarachary I'm just saying that very few people the bhakti movement started in the summer and then you accuse the BJP of being part of it what you are doing yeah but no this is not bhakti movement this is tapasya in fact Mr Rahul Gandhi said in the civil society that there are two emotions there are two pillars of Indian sort of you know Indian philosophy one is bhakti and the other one is tapasya I am doing tapasya he certainly


tapasya I am doing tapasya he certainly doesn't want bhakti from all of us unlike many others in on the other side of the political Spectrum so you're going to come back to us after I will come back to you when the president I come back to you on the 1st of October evening in case the candidate is unanimous okay right I come back to you on the 19th of October if there is an election and there is uh announcement of the winner will be made so either in the first evening or the 19th evening I'll come and we can have this discussion thank you so much for being part of this discussion thank you very much thanks thank you for watching or listening into a i podcast with Smitha prakash do like and subscribe to whichever platform you watched or listened to it namaste [Music] thank you [Music]