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A

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Rick Rubin. Rick Rubin is a world renowned music producer, having worked with an enormous number of incredible artists, producing, for instance, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Beastie Boys, Jay Z, Johnny Cash, Adele, Lady Gaga, Tom Petty, and of course, Slayer. This last year, Rick also authored his first book, which is a truly incredible exploration into the creative process. His book is entitled the Creative a Way of being. Rick has appeared once before on the Huberman Lab podcast, and during that appearance he offered to answer listeners and viewers questions. Those questions were put in the comment section on YouTube, and we received thousands of them. So today, Rick answers your questions about the creative process. I also took note of the feedback that when Rick previously appeared on the Huberman Lab podcast, that perhaps I spoke a bit more than the audience would have preferred. So today I refrain from speaking too much and try and give as much airtime as possible to Rick in order to directly answer your your questions. You'll notice that today's discussion gets really into the practical aspects of the creative process. The most frequent questions that I received for Rick were ones in which people really want to understand what his specific process is each and every day, as well as when he's producing music or other forms of art. And of course, people want to know what they should do specifically from the time they wake up until the time they go to sleep, even whether or not they should take note of their dreams, et cetera. We get into all of that. So today's discussion is very different from the one I held with Rick previously, and at least to my knowledge, from any of the other interviews or discussions that Rick has had publicly. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is element. Element is an electrolyte drink with everything you need and nothing you don't. That means plenty of salt, magnesium, and potassium, the so called electrolytes, and no sugar. Salt, magnesium, and potassium are critical to the function of all the cells in your body, in particular to the function of your nerve cells, also called neurons. In fact, in order for your neurons to function properly all three electrolytes need to be present in the proper ratios, and we now know that even slight reductions in electrolyte concentrations or dehydration of the body can lead to deficits in cognitive and physical performance. Element contains a science backed electrolyte ratio of 1000 milligrams. That's 1 gram of sodium, 200 milligrams of potassium, and 60 milligrams of magnesium. I typically drink element first thing in the morning when I wake up in order to hydrate my body and make sure I have enough electrolytes. And while I do any kind of physical training and after physical training as well, especially if I've been sweating a lot, if you'd like to try element, you can go to drinkelement. That's lmnt.com Huberman to claim a free element sample pack with your purchase. Again, that's drinkelement lmnt.com Huberman Today's episode is also brought to us by waking up. Waking up is a meditation app that includes hundreds of meditation programs, mindfulness trainings, yoga Nidra sessions, and NSDR non sleep deep rest protocols. I started using the waking up app a few years ago because even though I've been doing regular meditation since my teens and I started doing yoga Nidra about a decade ago, my dad mentioned to me that he had found an app, turned out to be the waking up app, which could teach you meditations of different durations and that had a lot of different types of meditations to place the brain and body into different states, and that he liked it very much. So I gave the waking up app a try, and I too found it to be extremely useful because sometimes I only have a few minutes to meditate, other times I have longer to meditate. And indeed, I love the fact that I can explore different types of meditation to bring about different levels of understanding about consciousness, but also to place my brain and body into lots of different kinds of states depending on which meditation I do. I also love that the waking up app has lots of different types of yoga Nidra sessions. For those of you who don't know, yoga Nidra is a process of lying very still but keeping an active mind. It's very different than most meditations, and there's excellent scientific data to show that yoga Nidra, and something similar to it called non sleep deep rest, or NSDR, can greatly restore levels of cognitive and physical energy, even with just a short ten minute session. If you'd like to try the waking up app, you can go to wakingup.com huberman and access a free 30 day trial. Again, that's wakingup.com huberman to access a free 30 day trial. And now for my discussion about protocols for creativity with Rick Rubin. Rick Rubin, welcome back.

B

Thank you, sir. Happy to be here.

A

We're going to answer, or rather you are going to answer the questions of the listeners of our previous podcast episode. Before we do that, however, when we were out in the lobby, you mentioned that you have a breathing exercise, a coherence breathing exercise that you thought might be useful for us to do now and perhaps for some of the listeners to join in.

B

Yeah, let's do it. And then if you want to talk about it after, we can.

A

Sounds good.

B

The reason I started doing this is I have relatively low heart rate variability and you want to have a higher one. So I looked at all the things that can raise your heart rate variability. And I started doing this breathing technique specifically for heart rate variability. Then it went up.

A

Awesome. So it's great.

B

Test it.

A

Great.

B

Let's do it together here. It'll say take a deep breath. And then when you'll hear the sound of a. If you follow me for the first inhale and exhale, you'll know what sound means. What.

A

And you do this eyes closed.

B

Typically I do it eyes closed.

A

Okay, we'll close our eyes.

B

Thank you. That was five minutes.

A

I like that.

B

Feels nice, isn't it?

A

Yeah. I notice I don't spontaneously breathe at that cadence. I breathe quite a bit faster, so especially on the exhale. So once I got into a rhythm of it, yeah. The mind just goes pseudo random for me. What about for you? Does your mind tend to go one place?

B

I do now I count. So the reason I knew it was five minutes is because it's six breaths per minute. And I counted 5112, 131-415-1621 so I was occupied with a task.

A

How often do you do that?

B

At least once and sometimes twice a day. I aim for ten minutes a day. But if I get to 20 minutes a day, it's noticeable in my heart rate variability results.

A

Do you do the coherence breathing at particular times of day or just whenever it occurs to you?

B

I think it depends on where I am and what else is going on in my life. There was, I had a window of a very specific thing that I was doing. I would do coherent breathing and I would do squats, just air squats. And in one location where I didn't have any other equipment. And then I found a way, like where I was doing treading water, which you got to experience with me, I would tread water, and then after treading water, I would get out of the pool, sit in the sun, and do the coherent breathing.

A

Great. We should probably mention what the treading water was about, because people will wonder very briefly. I went and visited Rick overseas this summer, and we spent a fair amount of the daytime treading water while listening to podcasts from a speaker on the side of the pool. And it was awesome. Time together as friends is awesome. Time in the sun is awesome. Learning from podcasts and listening and being entertained by podcasts is awesome. And then treading water is awesome. You're much better at treading water than I am. I was fatiguing.

B

It's just as I said when we were doing it. It's like doing stairs. If you practice doing stairs, it gets easier to do stairs, but nobody's good at doing marathon runners can't run up the stairs. You know, it's a particular thing. And treading water, if you just do it even in the little bit of time that we were doing it every day, by the end of your stay, it was easier for you than when you started.

A

Definitely.

B

Yeah. You acclimate quickly.

A

Yeah. I was able to adapt. I was impressed at your endurance in treading water early on. By the way, I've continued the treading water practice because I'm fortunate to have a pool in my new place. I listen to your podcast. Truly.

B

Wow.

A

Tetragrammaton. Love it. Love, love, love it. I listened to a few other podcasts, and I've started listening to more episodes of the podcast that you introduced me.

B

To, which was history of rock music and 500 songs.

A

Andrew Hickey.

B

It's an english podcast. Great podcast. Real in depth information about music.

A

Yeah, that was such a great trip. Thanks for having me over there.

B

Thanks for coming. It was fun. Treading water.

A

It was loved the time with you and your family. So I'll invite myself again.

B

You're always welcome.

A

On the topic of meditation, one of the questions in this list of questions we'll talk about the list itself in a moment, was about this anecdote that you've told me, and you've mentioned a few other places, apparently, that you've once meditated all the way from was it San Francisco to New York or Los Angeles to New York flight.

B

It was either LA to New York or New York to LA. I can't remember, and I may have done it more than once.

A

The question specifically was, which meditation did you do?

B

Tm. TM was the first meditation I learned. Transcendental meditation learned when I was 14. It's pretty much a default setting for me now. Sometimes it'll evolve from TM into breathing. Like, I might start by doing breathing before the tm piece starts. The breathing may just take the whole time, or it may turn from breathing into a gratitude practice or a meta practice, which is four phrases, may I be filled with loving kindness. May I be well, may I be peaceful and at ease. May I be happy. And you repeat those phrases over and over, and it starts, may I? And then eventually, if you've done it for a year or so, you could start saying, may we for your immediate family. And then as you build up the charge for your immediate family, in another year or so, you can spread it to your community, and eventually, after maybe five years, you can do it for the planet.

A

So that's the meta.

B

Meta. M e t t, a loving kindness practice.

A

And are there any particular links? Maybe you could pass us later and we could put in the captions, maybe one that you've used.

B

I learned it from Jack Kornfield, who's a buddhist scholar and a brilliant teacher.

A

Terrific. What do you think meditation has allowed you afforded you, as well as what it's helped you avoid in terms of a daily practice or maybe in just how doing it once in a while has wicked out into areas of your life? This is probably a long list of things, but if you were to pick maybe, like, the top three, where you go, yeah, when I'm meditating regularly, blank happens and blank doesn't happen. And when I'm not those things, because.

B

I've been doing it for such a long time, it's so part and parcel of who I am that without. I don't know who I would be without it. That said, I don't always do it, but I don't have. At this point, I don't have to always do it to be in this zone where I've been, you know, for almost, you know, 45 years, it's been a big part of my life. So a great deal of the benefits are in me now. When I practice, it gets amplified. But as Maharishi described it, every time you meditate is like making a deposit in a bank. So it's always there. Every time you do it, you're building a base. And the goal of the practice is less about the practice. It's about the practice is to change the way you are in the world. So it's a practice for life. Do you know what I'm saying? The changes that come in the meditation are to help your reactions in the.

A

Real world in some ways. Not to trivialize it, but it's like physical exercise. During a good workout, your blood pressure is really elevated. You're secreting all sorts of inflammatory cytokines. If we were to draw your blood mid workout, you'd say, this person is in trouble. But then all these wonderful adaptations occur that allow you to sleep better, better mood, walk upstairs easily and on and on.

B

It's funny about sleeping better. This morning, I was walking on the beach and had my headphones on, wired headphones, and I was listening to a podcast. I can't remember what I was listening to, but I was listening to a podcast, and someone flagged me and interrupted me, who I didn't know. And I went over to talk to him, and he said, I heard you talking about Steve Martin on a podcast, and he told me a story about Steve Martin, that he got to see him in 1979. I would say this person was probably mid to late sixties, and he was wearing all black. He was wearing shoes on the beach, tennis shoes. He was wearing dark sunglasses and a hat. And he said, just want to talk about comedy and things that he heard me say on a podcast. And we talked about it for a while, and then he said something about he loves podcasts, and he listens to him at night because he's got terrible insomnia and he can't sleep. And I'm looking at a guy in the sun wearing sunglasses, and I say, well, you know, the reason you can't sleep is because you're wearing sunglasses. Now. He's like, what are you talking about? I said, well, the way the human body works is we react to the sun. The sun is what tells us we're awake. And then at night, when it's dark, that's what tells us to go to sleep. So you're mixing the signals to your body by wearing the sunglasses. And he said, well, I'm a dermatologist, and I've been a. He said he was a dermatologist for the last 40 years, and my whole practice is about getting people to get out of the sun. And we started talking about it, and he was all covered up. I was wearing my board shorts and nothing else. And I said, well, I'm in the sun hours every day. And he's like, aren't you worried about cancer? And I said, no, I feel pretty healthy. I feel okay. And then he said, let me see your back. And I turned around, and he looked at my back. He's like, you have perfect skin. They should study you in an institute. I said, this is what normal, healthy skin looks like if you expose it to the sun. And he said, so you're saying everything I've been teaching in my medical practice for the last 40 years was wrong? I said, yes, everything. It was funny. Funny conversation.

A

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, we could go down a deep rabbit hole with this, but listeners of this podcast will know that I'm very much a proponent of getting those sunlight signals to the eyes at least once a day, in the morning, but also in the evening. I'll just share with you now. I learned from a guest whose episode we haven't aired yet that what is so special about that morning and evening sunlight are the contrasts between blues and oranges, blues and reds, blues and pinks that we can't always see if there's cloud cover, but they come through, and it's the mathematical difference in their presence, a subtraction of a lot of blue, and then next to it, a lot of orange or a lot of blue, and then next to it, a lot of pink, that triggers the body's understanding that this is morning and evening, and that night is coming in the evening, and that it's time to be awake in the morning and throughout the day. In the middle of the day, when the sun is out and it's overhead, it looks like white light. And white light includes the blues and the oranges and the pinks and the reds, but they subtract to zero because they're all mixed together. That's why it looks just blue and white. And so, while bright light is great throughout the day, it's those morning signals. Now, I think the dermatology community is starting to come online with the idea that low solar angle sunlight early and later in the day, sun rising and sun setting. And I say that because people always go, oh, do you have to see it cross the horizon? That would be ideal. But rising and setting do not create the kind of skin damage or eye damage that they've been so concerned about. And I think the next step for the field of dermatology is going to be to start communicating with the neuroscientists and the circadian biologists and really learning that. So thanks for bridging that gap on the beach this morning. I do think that's how it starts. And then it wicks out headphones. So I made the choice a few years ago to stop using the Bluetooth headphones based on my personal experience, which was I kept getting these cysts behind my ears, which I was told were swellings of lymph. They would actually drain lymphatic if they got big enough. It was really gross and troubling. I stopped using them. I didn't get them. I started using them again. I started getting those lymph things, and there was some significant heat effects as well. And I've interviewed a couple of people, including a neurosurgeon on the podcast, about the level of ems that come from them, and they were not concerned. Others I've spoken to are concerned. I'm going to try and balance out the conversation over time. But my feeling was, look, if there's any concern whatsoever, why would I use them? So I use the ones with wires, but use the ones with wires that are even one step further away from wifi transmitters.

B

There are ones with air tubes that I use depending on what's going on, and those have no electrical. There's no electric near your head. It's just an air tube where the sound is traveling. This actual sound is traveling in the tubes to your ears.

A

I definitely sleep better with the phone out of the bedroom. Some people are now turning off their wifi at night. I think you and I are both really aligned in the sense that we've seen enough things come and go in the health space, like disparaging remarks about lifting weights, like, that's just for bodybuilders. And now everybody knows you're muscle bound.

B

You become muscle bound.

A

Now, men and women, elderly and young, are encouraged to do resistance training. Yoga used to be cast in this kind of magic carpet realm, breath work. All this stuff has become, over time, mainstream. But it's taken a very long time, and the road has been choppy and sometimes, in my opinion, really unfair to the practices and their value. These are zero cost practices in many cases, that can really help people. And so when I look at something like sunscreen or I, you know, bluetooth headphones, or we're talking about some of these things, I wish I had a portal into the future where we look back and go like, of course, of course. So what are your thoughts on just kind of health and wellness as you've observed it in the last 2030 years? I mean, you've been in this for a while. I mean, you paid attention to mindfulness and mind body stuff. What are your thoughts?

B

I try to live in as natural way as possible. I try to eat as few processed foods as possible, try to eat grass fed animals, and I use hardly any products of any kind that aren't just something that grows or lives on the planet.

A

There were a couple questions about this, so I'll ask now. You lost a tremendous amount of weight. You look great, by the way.

B

Thank you.

A

You look super fit. Every time I see you, you're in better and better shape, and that's your perception.

B

It's not in fact the case.

A

I'll accept it. I don't know. When I see you each time, you're extremely mobile, you're sleeping well, you have a robust life, all the marks of health and vitality. So I've heard you mention before that you lost a significant amount of weight. How much weight and how did you do it?

B

135 pounds through a high protein, low calorie, low carb diet.

A

And that went against the convention at the time.

B

Well, the person who suggested it was someone at UCLA, so it was a mainstream doctor who helped me with my weight loss. I had been a vegan at that time, which was not mainstream then, and it was very unhealthy. But I did that for 20 some odd years because I believed in the theory of it, but it proved not to be healthy for me.

A

Do you think that different diets likely work for different people?

B

Yes.

A

So that not everyone necessarily should do what you did?

B

No, no. But I think most people would probably benefit from healthy red meat. I'm saying that only because it's so vilified in our culture.

A

Yeah, I agree, and I think the healthy piece is key there too. Non factory farmed animals, which fortunately, reasonably cost sources of that are becoming more available. Well, I'm going to start pulling from the list of questions. By the way, folks, there were more than 1000 questions in just the one third printout that I did.

B

It's an intimidating stack in front of you.

A

It's the most notes I've ever put in front of me during a guest discussion here on the podcast. And we are not going to ask you every question, but I've organized them in some sense of a coherent order.

B

Did you organize them or did AI organize them?

A

I organize them, but that's a great opportunity to ask you one of the questions that came up several times, which was, what are your thoughts on AI and its ability to shape? How music is made, how visual arts are made? Are you one of these scared of AI, or do you embrace new technology?

B

I don't know enough about it yet to talk about it. What I will say is what I find interesting about art is the point of view of the person making it, and I don't know that AI has a point of view of its own, and I don't know how interesting it would be AI's point of view. But I like people's points of view. And what makes an artist a great artist to me is something about their point of view does something with to me childhood.

A

The question for Rick Rubin was what activities did you find most enjoyable and easy to get lost in as a child? I love this question for you in particular.

B

Reading was a big part of my life. Listening to music was a big part of my life. Playing guitar along with music can't really play. But the idea of playing along. So it didn't have to actually be good enough to play along because I didn't have that skill set. But I liked the experience of doing my best to play along with something I was listening to and also magic. Learning like shuffling cards in front of a mirror and coin tricks and sleight of hand was just interesting to me.

A

Do you still do magic?

B

I don't.

A

Okay.

B

At the time that music took over my life, I had to choose between the two. Cause both of them were full time life pursuits.

A

I went and saw a mentalist in New York this summer with my sister Asi. Wind is his name. A s I first name, last name Wind. Every time I see a mentalist, especially when I see Aussie, I've seen him twice. It blows my mind. What are your thoughts on mentalists as?

B

It's my favorite form of magic.

A

Really.

B

It's the most interesting because it doesn't rely on props. It's pure. It feels like pure magic. If you have a box and you pull something out of the box, there's probably something tricky about the box. But when someone can look at you and tell you what you're thinking, it's just wild. It's really wild.

A

So I love that after ASi did his act, when we pseudo return to reality. Cause it really does change the way you look at things after that for quite a while, maybe forever. I asked him if he was willing to share maybe just one nugget of insight into how he does what he does. And of course I wasn't expecting he was going to give away the whole thing. And he said a lot of it has to do with forming and erasing memories in people quickly, which sounds very kind of dark and mysterious.

B

Really interesting. Yeah.

A

That maybe it's possible to erase memories of like maybe what we thought we saw we really didn't see or hear.

B

Wow.

A

So I dig that description. Yeah. I'm gonna bring him out here by the way, so we should all get together. Yeah, I would love to I wanna get him on the podcast. Okay. A full 10% of the questions for you were around writer's blocks, sticking points, this kind of thing, like feeling stuck in the creative process. Now, people didn't specify whether or not they were stuck at the beginning, the middle of the end. But based on my read of all of these questions, I got the sense that people were feeling like there's something in them that they want access to. They want to create, but they don't know how to get past that initial stage, as opposed to somebody who's like, 90% done and they just can't finish the last 10%. What are your thoughts about these kinds of blocks and how to overcome them? Any experience you've had with them yourself, and perhaps with working with other artists.

B

The first thought is to go past the idea of the block and think about what's the cause of the block. And the block is usually something like, it's either a personal, I'm not good enough. It can be a confidence issue, I don't have anything to say, or it could be a thinking about someone else. Nobody's going to like what I make. Do you know what I'm saying? So it's either self judgment or fear of outside judgment. So if you're making something with a freedom of this is something I'm making for myself. For now, that's all it is. It's a diary entry. Everything I make is a diary entry. The beauty of a diary entry is I can write my diary entry, and you can't tell me my diary entry wasn't good enough, or that's not what I experienced. Of course it's what I experienced. I'm writing a personal diary for myself. No one else can judge it. It is my experience of my life. Everything we make can be. That can be a personal reflection of who we are in that moment of time. It doesn't have to be the greatest you could ever do. It doesn't have to have any expectation that it's going to change the world. It doesn't have to be. This has to sell a certain number of copies for any reason. It doesn't have any of those things. All it is, is I'm making this thing. I'm making this thing for me, and I want to do it to the best of my ability, to where I feel good about it and where it's honest. It's honest of where I'm at. And if you're living in this world of just being honest to where you're at, there's nothing blocking that. Do you know what I'm saying? There are no blocks. The blocks are all based on dealing with a different force or a different perception that is made up. You make up this story, and you're living the story. I'm in this block because I just can't do it. The reason you can't do it is because you're afraid someone else is not going to like it, or you're. There are no blocks. There's infinite amount of information out there to work with, because it also doesn't stem from us vehicles for this information, and it's coming through us all the time. So if you don't have an idea when you're sitting at your desk, if you go for a walk, chances are you'll see something that'll spark something in you as a. As a seed to take off from.

A

That makes a lot of sense. And I had a thought while you were saying that one of the challenges that I have in completing work and getting into a good work groove is that, especially nowadays because of phones and so easy to communicate with other people, it's not that they interrupt me, it's that. And this happened the other day. I set up my new office really nicely. I'm living in a very quiet place now. It's, like, almost completely silent unless I'm playing music. It's really interesting. Or the coyotes sometimes come around and start doing their thing at night completely silent. And I realized I was having a hard time getting into a work groove. And I realized that I felt compelled to continue to reach out to people. And then I realized, as you just provided your answer to the last question, that there's probably something in me that has a bit of a fear of separation or abandonment from people. Based on my own experience, I feel very well supported by my friends and coworkers these days. Very, very well supported. I'm in a kind of pinch me place around that. But I realize now that what's happening in my mind is it's not a challenge of getting into the work. It's a fear that if I spend a couple hours, really, in that tight tunnel of creation, that there might not be anyone there when I exit it. Which is a crazy thought.

B

That's a crazy thought.

A

But that's the anxiety. And I only realize that now.

B

Yeah.

A

So, thank you.

B

Great.

A

I trust that you guys will be there when I exit the tunnel. And when there's a deadline, I have no choice but to jump into that tunnel. That's actually what helps. Deadlines really help me do deadlines help you? Do you like deadlines?

B

Deadlines don't help me at the beginning of a process. They can help at the end. Once the code's been cracked. Usually when I start something, I have no idea what it's gonna be. So it's a very open process in the beginning, and if there was any sense of required timing that would undermine the freedom needed for it to be all that it could be. But once the code's cracked and you know what it is and it's all there and you're just, you know, you're dealing with the fine points, then it can be really helpful to have a deadline.

A

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, athletic greens. Athletic greens, now called ag one, is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that covers all of your foundational nutritional needs. I've been taking athletic greens since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast. The reason I started taking athletic greens and the reason I still take athletic greens once or usually twice a day is that it gets me the probiotics that I need for gut health. And I our gut is very important. It's populated by gut microbiota that communicate with the brain, the immune system, and basically all the biological systems of our body to strongly impact our immediate and long term health. And those probiotics and athletic greens are optimal and vital for microbiotic health. In addition, athletic greens contains a number of adaptogens, vitamins and minerals that make sure that all of my foundational nutritional needs are met. And it tastes great. If you'd like to try athletic greens, you can go to athleticgreens.com Huberman and they'll give you five free travel packs that make it really easy to mix up athletic greens while you're on the road, in the car, on the plane, etcetera. And they'll give you a year's supply of vitamin D, three, k, two. Again, that's athleticgreens.com Huberman to get the five free travel packs and the year's supply of vitamin D, three, k, two. A number of questions were sort of comments about what people believe your process is, and one of the repeating themes there, which I thought was interesting, was it seems that Rick Rubin is comfortable with uncertainty and the unknown.

B

Yes, that is true. Yes and no. Yes, I am comfortable with it because I accept that's the way things are. That said, when I start a new project, I always have anxiety because I'm uncertain of what's going to happen and I want it to be good. Now, I know it won't be done until I feel good about it. So in that way, there is no, there's no real pressure. But I do still feel this anxiety of, I wonder what's going to happen today. I hope it's good.

A

You know, when you've worked with musical artists, let's say, how important is it to you to know what challenges, maybe even what successes, but certainly what challenges they happen to be going through at that period of time? Put differently, do you end finding yourself playing therapist and guide and psychological, emotional mentor to artists you work with during the creative process, or is that separate?

B

If they're going through something that's interfering with the work, anything that gets in the way of the work is something worth discussing. Our focus there together is to get the work done. Sometimes it ends up being more therapeutic to allow that to happen.