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This posting is totally uncalled for in rec.scouting.
The point has been raised and has been answered. Roger and I have
clearly stated our support of the BSA position on the issue;
specifically, that homosexual behavior constitutes a violation of
the Scout Oath (specifically, the promise to live "morally straight").
There is really nothing else to discuss. Trying to cloud the issue
with comparisons to Blacks or other minorities is also meaningless
because it's like comparing apples to oranges (i.e., people can't
control their race but they can control their behavior).
What else is there to possibly discuss on rec.scouting on this issue?
Nobody, including BSA, is denying anybody the right to live and/or
worship as they please or don't please, but it doesn't mean that BSA
is the big bad wolf for adhering to the recognized, positive, religious
and moral standards on which our society has been established and on
which it should continue to be based. | 0 | alt.atheism |
A human has greater control over his/her actions, than a
predominately instictive tiger.
A proper analogy would be:
If you are thrown into a cage with a person and get mauled, do you
blame that person?
Yes. [ providing that that person was in a responsible frame of
mind, eg not clinicaly insane, on PCB's, etc. ]
---
"One thing that relates is among Navy men that get tatoos that
say "Mom", because of the love of their mom. It makes for more
virile men."
Bobby Mozumder ( snm6394@ultb.isc.rit.edu )
April 4, 1993 | 0 | alt.atheism |
FOR SALE:
Paradise SVGA accelerator card
-800x600x32768
-1240x1024x16
-up to 15 times faster than vga
-manual, drivers
-used for 5 months, perfect condition
-WD chipset
$120 OBO | 6 | misc.forsale |
Benedikt Rosenau writes, with great authority:
"Contradictory" is a property of language. If I correct this to
THINGS DEFINED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST
I will object to definitions as reality. If you then amend it to
THINGS DESCRIBED BY CONTRADICTORY LANGUAGE DO NOT EXIST
then we've come to something which is plainly false. Failures in
description are merely failures in description.
(I'm not an objectivist, remember.)
| 0 | alt.atheism |
-> I saw an interesting product in NY Auto Show, and would like to hear
-> your comments.
->
-> MILITECH(tm) is yet another oil additive. But the demonstration of
-> this product really impressive, if it didn't cheat.
Well, I heard that Militech stuff works pretty good too.. One of my
friends who races in SCCA sanctioned events and all that stuff got the
Militech stuff early as a trial thing, and he put it in his CRX.. He
says it worked great, but I didn't ask him for any details.
-Erich
erich.lim@yob.sccsi.com
| 7 | rec.autos |
Why should he have been any different "then"? Ozzy Osbourne,
ex-singer and main character of the Black Sabbath of good ole days past,
is and always was a devout catholic. Or so I've heard over on the
alt.rock-n-roll.metal newsgroups, an' I figure those folks oughta know..
| 15 | soc.religion.christian |
Yes it is, as has been evidenced by the previous two stages
of withdrawal from the area and by the reductions in troops.
Currently the troops are kept at a level consistent with light
and armored patrols. No permanent installations have been
built in the area, nor are any planned.
As to the prodigal "water question", you can continue to waste
your time looking for non-existent proof, or you can accept the
testimony of people here, some Lebanese, who have acknowledged
that they know of no evidence for these allegations.
It depends which of those territories you refer to.
In general, settlers were moved into the territories because
at the time, in the context of the situations, it seemed the
logical move. This is not to say that views don't change
or that mistakes are not made. Currently, I would say that
the only "disputed territory" that does not appear to be temporary
is that of Eastern and northern Jerusalem.
| 17 | talk.politics.mideast |
Is the answer as simple as that you dislike russians???
And where would canadian hockey be today without the europeans?? Dont say
that the european influence on the league has been all bad for the game.
I mean, look at the way you play these days. Less fights and more hockey.
Imho, canadian hockey has had a positive curve of development since the
70's when the game was more brute than beauty......
Oh, look!! You don't like Finns either....
Too bad almost all of you northamericans originates from europe.....
Hmmm... And what kind of a name is Rauser. Doesn't sound very "canadian" to
me. ;-) | 10 | rec.sport.hockey |
The IIIP has just been superseded by the 4M, which is the one I am using at
work. The quality of the print is execellent, beating 300 dpi printers hands
down. In Australia the price of the 4M is about comparable with that of the
III-series, so HP are trying to get people to buy the new one !!! | 4 | comp.sys.mac.hardware |
It has been done already!
In the UK the Atari ST box was shipped with 360K disks in the first few
years and then later 720K disks. In order to make life less complicated,
many freebie disks on mags were double formatted like this. Side 0 of the
disk had 360K on it and could be read by any ST. It also had a flip-side
program. This would swap the sides around so that side 1 became side 0.
-- | 11 | sci.crypt |
But waiiiiiit, isn't Nissan officially registering the car as far as
government paperwork goes, Nissan Stanza Altima, to avoid costly and
lengthy paperwork? I read this on the net a while ago, and someone
actually may have said there's a little Stanza logo on the Altima
somewhere.
You *can* have it both ways :-)
Spiros | 7 | rec.autos |
This is the new Buffalo one, the second since he's been with the
Sabres? I recall a price tag of over $700 just for the paint job on
that mask, and a total price of almost $1500. Ouch.
| 10 | rec.sport.hockey |
The idea of the card is bull in and of its self, but I'm curious to know, do
they plan on making it a requirement to *always* have it on you, or is it
only going to be required to be *presented* when trying to ge medical aid?
BTW, anybody planning on shaving Hillary's head to look for *666*? 8^)
Later Dave,
Days
^^^^^^^^
Goverment logic or just the Clintons?
| 16 | talk.politics.guns |
The recent rise of nostalgia in this group, combined with the
incredible level of utter bullshit, has prompted me to comb
through my archives and pull out some of "The Best of Alt.Atheism"
for your reading pleasure. I'll post a couple of these a day
unless group concensus demands that I stop, or I run out of good
material.
I haven't been particularly careful in the past about saving
attributions. I think the following comes from John A. Johnson,
but someone correct me if I'm wrong. This is probably the longest
of my entire collection.
________________________________________________________
So that the
Prophecy be
Fulfilled
* * *
In considering the Christian religion, and judging it
according to its claims, it is important to look at its claims at
fulfilling earlier Jewish prophecy. The scribe Matthew is perhaps
the most eager to draw out what he thinks are prophetic answers in
the career of Jesus of Nazareth. As you will see, Matthew's main
strategy is to take various Old Testament passages, often not even
about the promised Messiah, and apply them to the circumstances in
the New Testament. We must also bear in mind the question of the
authenticity of the accounts. Since the gospels were written at
least 35 years after Jesus was executed, we do not know how much
happened exactly as stated. But, for purposes of analysis, we
will take particular claims at face value.
Immanuel:
We begin, of course, at the beginning.
(Mt 1.21-22): "[Mary] will bear a son, and you,
Joseph, will name him 'Jesus' (which means G'd is
salvation), for he will save his people from their
sins." All this happened to fulfil what the lord had
spoken by a prophet:
[Isaiah 7.1-16]: In the days of Ahaz (c. 750 BCE),
king of Judah, Rezin of Syria and Pekah of Israel made
war on Jerusalem (capitol of Judah), but could not
quite conquer it. When the house of David (i.e. Ahaz
and his court in Judah) were told of this, ...its
heart and the heart of its people shook... And, the
lord G'd said to Isaiah, "go to meet with Ahaz..."
...And the lord spoke to Ahaz (through prophet Isaiah,
naturally) saying, "Ask a sign of G'd your lord. It
can be as deep as Sheol or as high as heaven." But,
Ahaz said, "I won't ask; I will not put the lord to a
test." Then (Isaiah) said, "Hear then, O house of
David. Is it not enough for you to weary men, that
you must weary my god too? Therefore, the lord
himself will give you a sign: Behold, a young woman
is with child and will bear a son, and name him
"Immanuel," which means, "G'd is with us." He will
eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse evil
and choose good. For, before the child knows how to
refuse evil and choose good, the land of the two kings
you dread will have been deserted...
Matthew homes in on just the sentence that is in italics.
Further, he the Hebrew word "almah," (young woman), as
specifically, "virgin." But, this is not a prophecy about the
Messiah. It is not a prophecy about an event to happen 750 years
later. It is not a prophecy about a virgin (bethulah) mother. In
short, it not about Jesus. Matthew has made use of a verse out of
context, and tries to make it fit the specific case of Mary. It
should be noted that if we want to read the prophecy in a general
manner, a very general one, it can be made to fit Mary. Mary,
virgin or not, was indeed a young woman with child. Of course,
the fit is shady and has problems. Jesus, while thought of by
later Christians to be G'd walking among men, was never called by
the name, Immanuel. If Christianity wished to claim this prophecy
for Jesus, it becomes at best a cut-and-paste prophecy... a second
class prophecy. Not too convincing.
Egypt:
After Jesus's birth in Bethlehem, Matthew tells about a
quick (and elsewhere unmentioned) excursion to Egypt, as if he
wishes to liken Jesus to Moses. This was done to escape an
alleged infanticidal rampage of the king, Herod.
[Mt 2.15] ...and remained there until the death of
Herod. This was to fulfil what the lord had spoken:
"Out of Egypt I have cal-led my son."
What the lord really said was this.
[Hosea 11.1] When Israel was a child, I loved him.
And, out of Egypt I called my son. The more I called
them (my people), the more they went from me; they
kept sacrificing to the Ba'als, and kept burning
incense to idols.
Matthew conveniently omits the rest of Hosea's oracle. But, it
was indeed Israel that, once called out of Egypt, wanted to
return. This is history. Jesus is certainly not being spoken of
here. And, if we are to draw some kind of parallel here, we wind
up with a Jesus that flees and resists G'd. Again, this prophecy
is just not as convincing as Matthew probably had hoped.
Rachel Weeps:
While Jesus is off vacationing in Egypt, Matthew says that
King Herod sought to kill him, and thus ordered the executions of
all young male children. Matthew then writes,
[Mt 2.17-18] By this, that which was spoken by the
prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:
"A voice was heard in Ramah, wailing and loud
lamentation-- Rachel weeping for her children;
she refused to be consoled, because they were
no more."
The reference is to a passage in Jeremiah 31.15, referring to the
carrying off of Israel into exile by Sargon (of Assyria) in 722
BCE. Rachel, the ancestor of the major tribes of Israel, Ephraim,
and Manasseh, is said to weep for her descendants who are "no
more." It is metaphorical, of course, since Rachel lived and dies
before the Hebrews were even in the Egyptian exile.
It is interesting to note that it was Leah, not Rachel, who
was the ancestor of the Judeans (the land where Jesus and
Bethlehem were). If anyone should do weeping for her "children,"
it is Leah. The only connexion that Rachel has with Bethlehem is
that the legends have it that she was buried north of the city,
"on the way to Ephrath, (Bethlehem)."
As for Herod and his infanticide, it is rather unlikely
that such an event actually occurred. One never knows, but the
event is not mentioned or alluded to anywhere else in the Bible,
nor is it mentioned in any of the secular records of the time.
Herod was particularly unliked in his reign, and many far less
evil deeds of Herod were carefully recorded. This might be a
prime example of how events were added to Jesus's life to enhance
the message of the church's gospel.
Because of the whole story's similarity to the tale of the
infant Moses in Egypt, it is highly likely that it is a device set
up by Matthew to add prophetic, yet artificial, approval of Jesus.
It is not surprising that Matthew conveniently neglects to mention
the rest of the Jeremiah quote. The "children" the prophet
speaks of are not dead, but exiled in the Assyrian Empire. G'd
comforts the weeping Rachel, saying that the children will be
returned-- he will gather them back together. Of course, this
would not suit Matthew's purpose, as the children he speaks of are
dead for good. Again, the "prophecy" Matthew sets up is not even
that, and to anyone who bothers to check it out, is not too
convincing.
The Nazarene:
We do not even have to go to the next chapter to find
another Matthean prophecy. After leaving Egypt, Joseph & wife
take the infant Jesus to live in the city of Nazareth,
[Mt 2.23] ...that what was spoken of by the prophets
might be fulfilled, "He shall be called a Nazarene."
First thing we notice is that Matthew does not mention the name of
the prophet(s) this time. Second, we have to ask who "He" is.
There are no Messianic prophecies speaking of a Nazarene. Worse,
there are no prophecies, period, mentioning a Nazarene. Still
worse, there are no Nazarenes mentioned in the Old Testament at
all. In the book of Judges, an angel tells Samson's mother that
she will,
[Judges 13.5] "...conceive and bear a son. No razor
shall tough his head, for he will be a Nazirite to his
god from the day of his birth. He will deliver Israel
from the hands of the Philistines."
This is of course not a prophecy of Jesus, or the messiah of G'd.
But, it is the best that can be found. Obviously, Matthew has
begun to go overboard in cut-and-paste prophecies, in that he is
simple making them up now.
Bearing our
Diseases:
Jesus next goes around healing people of physical illnesses
and disabilities.
[Mt 8.17] This was to fulfil what was spoken by the
prophet Isaiah, "He took our infirmities and bore our
diseases."
As expected, the verse quoted in Isaiah is quoted out of context,
and a few words are skewed to fit the Christian scheme. We have,
[Is 53.4] Surely he, [the suffering servant], has
borne our sickness, and carried our pains.
From a reading of the surrounding passages in Isaiah, we know that
the prophet is speaking in present tense of the collective nation
of Israel, Jehovah's chosen servant and people. He speaks to the
Israelites suffering in exile, in the voice of the gentile nations
that look upon it. This image is deeply ingrained in Jewish
identity --an image of a chastised, yet cherished, Israel as the
instrument of the nations' salvation by G'd.
The verses speak of Israel taking on the sicknesses which
are the literal and metaphorical manifestations of guilt and
discipline. They do not speak of a "servant" going around and
healing people. Notice that the servant in Isaiah takes on the
sicknesses and pains of the nations (and individual Jews). Jesus,
as we all know, did not take the diseases onto himself. The
verses here in Isaiah are not a prophecy of something to come, but
rather something that had already happened. While it is believed
that Jesus took on the eternal punishment of hell, he did not bear
the illnesses he healed. So, while someone might want to say
that, figuratively, Jesus reenacted the deeds of Israel in his
spiritual atonement, he has to admit that Matthew's parallel
misses where he intended it to have its effect.
Silent Messiah:
Upon healing multitudes of commoners, it is said that Jesus
ordered them to keep quiet, presumable so that he wouldn't arouse
the attention of the local rulers.
[Mt 12.15-21] This was to fulfill what was spoken by
the prophet Isaiah.
"Behold my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved,
with whom my soul is pleased. I will put my spirit on
him, and he will announce justice to the Gentiles. He
will not wrangle or cry aloud, nor will anyone hear
his voice in the streets. He will not break a bruised
reed or quench a smoldering wick until he brings
justice to victory, and the gentiles will hope in his
name."
The Isaiah passage quoted reads,
[Is 42.1-4] Behold my servant whom I uphold, my
chosen, in whom my soul delights. I have put my
spirit on him, and he will bring forth justice to the
nations. We will not cry or lift up his voice, or
make it heard in the street. He will not break a
bruised reed, or quench a smoldering wick. He will
faithfully bring forth justice. He will not fail
(burn dimly) or be discouraged (bruised) until he has
established justice in the earth. And the coastlands
await his law.
You see, Matthew has conveniently left out part of the passage,
because it does not suit the dealings of Jesus. Christians could
never think of Jesus failing, never would the "light" of mankind
burn dimly. But, the servant nation of Israel will indeed come to
an end when its job is done. When the gentiles come to embrace
G'd there will no longer be a chosen people, but rather all will
be the children of G'd. Also, the ending phrase has been changed
from the Judaic "...the coastlands await his law." to the
Christologic, "the Gentiles will hope in his name." While the
original proclaims the Torah law of Jehovah, the other rewrites it
to fit its strange doctrine of "believing in the name." If one
has any doubt the servant referred to is not Jesus, one has only
to read the whole chapter, Isaiah 42, and hear about the beloved
but blind and imperfect servant, "a people robbed and
plundered..." So, we see that when Matthew's attempt at
"prophecy" is examined, it crumbles.
Three Days and
Three Nights:
Now we come upon a prophecy supposedly uttered by the very
mouth of the god Jesus himself. He speaks of his crucifixion and
resurrection.
[Mt 12.40] For as Jonah was in the belly of the
whale for three days and three nights, so will the Son
of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and
three nights.
Before any further discussion can occur, it is necessary to know
how the Jews understood days. As far as day names went, each was
24 hours long, lasting from sunset 6pm to the following sunset
6pm. What was referred to as a "day" was the period of light from
6am to the ending sunset at 6pm. Thus, according to our time
scale, a sabbath day began at 6pm Friday evening, and lasted until
6pm saturday evening. This is why the Jews celebrate their
sabbath on the daylight portion of Saturdays, instead of Sundays.
(It seems like a real miracle that Christians didn't forget that
Saturday was indeed the seventh and last day of the week!) Thus,
when days and nights are referred to together, 12 hour daylight
portions and 12 hour night periods are being spoken of. Thus,
Jesus says that he will be in the grave, or in hell, or otherwise
unresurrected for three days and three nights.
As the good book tells us, Jesus was crucified on the "ninth
hour," which is 3pm, Friday afternoon. He then was put into the
grave sometime after that. Then, Jesus left the grave, "rose,"
before dawn of what we call Sunday (The dawn after the sabbath was
over). What this means is that Jesus was, using our time for
clarity, in the grave from 6pm Friday night to some time before
6am Sunday morning. We could also add a little time before 6pm
Friday, since the bible is not specific here. What this means
using Jewish time is that he was in the grave for one day, two
nights, and possibly a couple of hours of one day. Certainly this
is a problem for Jesus prediction. There is absolutely no way we
are even able to have his death involve three days and three
nights --even using modern time measurements. We then are led to
suspect that this error is another one of Matthew's little
mistakes, and that the gospel writer put false words into his
god's mouth. And no matter who made the prediction, it is more
than unconvincing... it is counter-convincing.
Hearing &
Understanding:
Jesus tool on a habit of speaking to his vast audiences in
parables-- stories in which a deeper meaning could be found, if
you were already one of the elect, those chosen to understand the
message of Jesus. He reasons that those who can understand the
parables are the ones he wants. If the people cannot understand
them, there is no need to bother with them, since they will not
accept the "plain" message any better. Matthew says,
[Mt 13.14-16] With them [the audience] indeed in
fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which says,
"You will indeed hear but never understand; and you
will indeed see, but never perceive. Because this
people's heart has grown dull, their ears are heavy of
hearing, and they have shut their eyes so the they
would not perceive with them, her with their ears, and
understand with their heart, and turn for me to heal
them."
The original Isaiah passages are part of his earlier works, his
call to the ministry. This is in 740 BCE, when Israel is
flourishing, right before it falls under the authority of Assyria.
Isaiah sees the good times ending, and also a vision from G'd,
calling him to bring reform to Israel and Judah.
[Is 6.9-13] And G'd said, "Go, and say to this
people, `Hear and hear, but do not understand; see and
see, but do not perceive.' Make the heart of this
people fat, make their ears heavy, and shut their
eyes, so they will not see with their eyes, or hear
with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and
turn and be healed." Then Isaiah said, "How long,
lord?" And he said, "Until the cities lie waste
without inhabitant, and houses without men, and the
land is utterly desolate, and the G'ds take men far
away, and forsaken places are many in the land. And
though a tenth will remain in it, it will be burned
again, like a terebinth or an oak whose stump still
stands when the tree is felled." The holy seed is its
stump.
Here we see that it is really G'd who causes the people of Israel
to stop listening to the prophet's warnings, but reaffirms the
promise made to Solomon's (and David's) seed/lineage. If you read
the rest of Isaiah, you find that this is done to fulfil the plan
of G'd to use Israel as a servant, a light to the nations. (Look
at Isaiah 42.18-25, 48.20, 49.3)
We see that Matthew has cut-and-pasted just a little portion
of Isaiah's verse, to suit his own gospel needs. More than that,
he has altered the words, to make it fit the people who didn't
understand Jesus's stories. And, as we see, Isaiah's verses are
not prophecies, but rather commands from G'd to him, in the
present. Once again, Matthew's prophecy falls flat on its face.
Matthew tries again to make Jesus's parables look like they
have the prophetic approval.
[Mt 13.35] ...he said nothing to them without a
parable. This was to fulfil what was spoken of by the
prophet, "I will open my mouth to them in parables. I
will utter that which has been hidden since the
foundation of the world."
Matthew really botches up here. He attempts to quote not from a
prophet, but from the Psalms.
[Ps 78.2-4] I will open my mouth in parable. I will
utter dark sayings of old, things that we all have
heard and known, things that our fathers have told us.
We will not hide them from their children, but tell to
the coming generation the glorious deeds of the
lord...
As was pointed out, the verses in the Psalms do not really come
from a prophet. You might also want to know that earlier copies
of Matthew's gospel even inserted Isaiah's name as this prophet.
Apparently, later scribes caught the error and tried to cover some
of it up.
Perhaps the most significant part of this is that, once
again, Matthew has altered the Old Testament Scriptures. As Jesus
has said earlier, he speaks in parables so that some will not
understand them. The parables in the Psalms are not to be hidden.
Further, they speak of things "known, that our fathers have told
us." Jesus deals with things "hidden since the foundation of the
world." Indeed Jesus dealt in a lot of secrecy and confusion.
This is in direct opposition to the parables in the Psalms. No
wonder Matthew had to rewrite them! And still once again,
Matthew's artificial prophecies fall flat on their face. But,
Christians rarely look at this. Matthew's prophecies aren't the
only things about Christianity that are beginning to look bad.
Excuses of
Little Faith:
In Mt. 17.14-21, we see that the disciples are able to go
around casting out demons, except in one case. Not knowing what
epilepsy was, the people thought those with the disease were
possesed with demons. It is no wonder that the disciples were
unable to "dispossess" the epileptic. But, Jesus, perhaps no more
enlightened than they, is reported to have rebuked them, saying
they didn't have enough faith. This seems strange. Why was this
demon special? It seems that either a true believer has faith or
he does not. Apparently, enough faith will allow someone to move
mountains. Of course, you will find no one, these days that can
move real mountains. No one parts seas. The only miracles the
Charismatics can speak of are those rumoured to happen on trips to
Mexico or some faraway place. Major miracles are making some old
woman's arthritis feel better on Sunday morning T.V.
And the gods, including Jesus, are always shrouded in
ancient lore and writings, protected from the skeptics in their
sacred pasts. They are either dead, sleeping, or hiding in
heaven, with people rumouring about their imminent return and
their great miracles of days long gone. Yet, life goes on.
Tales of mystics, stories of miracles-- all in a distant time
or a distant place. Gods used to reveal themselves to men in the
old days, Jehovah too. But, now they are silent. All the
theologians give are various excuses as to why we don't get to see
God anymore.
We're too lazy; we're not zealous enough; we're
sinful; it's just his "plan"; we put too many of our
own demands on G'd's appearance; if we had the right
faith, if we were willing to meet G'd on his terms...
Yet, even the most pious of men have not seen G'd. You, dear
reader, have not seen G'd. Not literally, you know that to be
true. (I know that's presumptuous and bold. But, searching your
heart, you know what I mean.) All that we've seen religions do is
make people feel good and content about not seeing G'd. They say
our little faith does not merit us to see G'd. Sometimes, they
say, "See the love in these people you worship with... see the
lives of people change... that is seeing G'd." Thus people get
lulled to sleep, satisfied with turning G'd into the everyday
sights. But, that is not seeing G'd as I am speaking of... it is
not seeing G'd the way people used to see.
What we see in the world that is good, is the compassion of
human hearts, the love given and taken by men and women, the
forgiveness practised by Christian & Atheist alike, beauty created
by the mind of man. These are the things that are done; these are
what we see. But, it is said this is so only because everybody
has little faith.
Jesus Rides on
an Ass:
Shortly after accepting the role of the Jewish messiah
king, Jesus requests a donkey be brought in for him to ride into
Jerusalem.
[Mt 21.5] This took place to fulfil what was spoken
by the prophet, saying,
Tell the daughter of Zion, "Behold, your king is
coming to you, humble, mounted on an ass, and on a
ass-colt."
Of course, the passage quoted from Zechariah 9.9 reads a little
differently.
Lo, your king comes to you; he is triumphant and
victorious, humble, and riding on an ass, on an ass-
colt... he will command peace to the nations.
There isn't all that much difference here, except that Zechariah
only involves one animal --an ass-colt-- while Matthew reads the
poetic wording slightly differently. Thus, he has Jesus call for
both a colt and an adult ass. From Matthew's version, we get a
comical picture of the divine Christ sweating it to straddle two
donkeys. This could inevitably lead to a theological,
proctological dilemma! We find that in the account written
earlier by St. Mark, only the colt was called for and brought to
Jesus. This indeed fits the verses of Zechariah properly, and
shows us that in Matthew attempt to use prophetic verses, he has
bungled. Now, excluding many respectable Christians I have met, I
have noticed that while Christ is thought to have ridden on asses,
the situation is often reversed nowadays...
Then, entering the Jerusalem temple, the priests were
angered at people and youngsters calling Jesus the messiah. But,
Jesus replied as we might expect Matthew to have done,
[Mt 21.16] Haven't you read? `Out of the mouth of
babes and sucklings thou has brought perfect praise.'
It is more likely that Matthew made this response up since Jesus
was never one to point out such little "prophetic" things AND
since, as we might expect, the quote is in error, which seems to
fit Matthew's track record quite well. We might ask Jesus or
Matthew, "Haven't you read?" for the source reads,
[Psalms 8.1-2] O YaHWeH our lord, how majestic is
your name in the whole world! You, whose glory is
chanted above the heavens by babes and infants, you
have founded a bulwark against your foes to still the
enemy and the avenger.
The passages hardly need comment. There is no "perfect praise"
spoken of in the psalm, and what praise is there is given to G'd,
not his messiah king, and not Jesus. As mentioned, it seems to be
just one more case of Matthew's pen making up convenient prophetic
scripture.
YHVH said to
my lord...:
Jesus is said to have asked from whom the promised Jewish
messiah-king is to be descended. The Jews agree-- it is king
David. But, then Jesus counters by quoting Psalms 110,
"The LORD said to my Lord, sit at my right hand, until
I put your enemies under your feet."
Taken at face value, Jesus is denying the necessity of Davidic
descent. One assumes he is in opposition to their answer. Of
course, the Christian answer is that he agrees, but is trying to
make some hidden point, to reveal some mystery about the divine
nature of the messiah-king. It's tempting to believe this, if one
is a Christian and not interested in matters of investigation.
But, there are problems.
In Jesus's time, the psalm was thought to be about the
messiah. And, it is easy to see why David might refer to the
messiah as his superior. We need only look at the scriptures
about the messiah to see that he is expected to be a great king,
bringing the Jews to times even better than those under David's
rule. Of course, the Jews listening had no good answer, and the
passage could indeed refer to a divine messiah, such as the
Christians worship. The problem lies in the meaning of this
psalm, an error that apparently several Jews of Jesus's time had
also made. One must remember that there were various factions
among the Jews, often as a result of different expectations of the
messiah-king. Jesus was apparently one of these adventists, like
his audience, who thought the messiah's advent was imminent, and
who interpreted Psalms 110, among others, as being messianic.
What is the problem, then? Psalm 110 literally reads,
YHVH's utterance to my lord:
"Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your
footstool."
YHVH sends forth your mighty scepter from Zion. Rule
in the midst of your foes! Your people will offer
themselves freely on the day you lead your host on the
holy mountains.
"You are a priest of the order of Melchizedek
forever."
The word "lord" is often mistakenly capitalised by Christian
bibles to denote divinity in this lord. But, in the Hebrew, the
word is "adoni," and no capitalisation exists. Adoni simply means
"lord," a generic term as we would use it. It is used often in
the scriptures to refer to kings and to G'd. It is merely an
address of respect.
There is nothing in the text itself to imply that the word
refers either to divinity or to the messiah-king. That this is
supposed to be written by David is not certain. The title of the
psalm translates to either "a psalm of David," or "a psalm about
David." It seems fitting to assume it to be written by a court
poet, about David's covenant and endorsement from G'd. If the
psalm had been written by David, it is unlikely that he would be
talking about the messiah. The idea of a perfect king, descended
from David, was not present in David's age. We have extensive
tales of David's doings and sayings-- none of which include any
praises of a messiah.
Many of the psalms show evidence of being written long after
David was dead, in times of the exile when G'd had put his show of
favour for David's kingdom on hold.
The description in the psalm fit David very well. David was
promised by G'd a rise to power, victory over his enemies,
successful judgement among the nations he conquered. He achieved
the priesthood common to Melchizedek in being a righteous king,
enabled to bless the people. It all fits.
We do not have to blame this problem on Matthew alone,
though. Here, there is not artificial prophecy alluded to, though
his use of the scripture is rather questionable. Still, this
event is common to the other gospels too. So, we let Matthew off
a little more easily this time. It is interesting to note,
though, how Matthew dresses up the event. The earlier gospel of
Mark tells the tale with Jesus simply speaking to a crowd.
Matthew has the Pharisees, who became the religious competition of
an infant Christianity, be the target of Jesus's question. As we
might expect, Matthew writes that the event ends up by
embarrassing the Pharisees. Such power is the pen.
Moses & Jesus,
Had it Together
All Along...:
We leave the gospel story of Matthew momentarily to see a
pseudo-prophecy in John's gospel. The gospel story of John
deserves special treatment, because it seems to be so far removed
from the real events of Jesus's career as told by even Matthew.
But, for the moment, we will just look at one verse. The early
church leaders founded a religion on the Jewish hopes of a messiah
king, and on an artificial extension of the original promises made
by G'd. When constructing the history of Abraham, Moses wrote of
a promise of land and nationhood to the Jewish people. While this
was accomplished eventually, under the rule of king David, the
Christians who came along later decided that they would claim the
fulfillment of the promise. But, to do so, they expanded on the
promise, preaching about a heavenly kingdom.
[John 8.56] (J.C. speaking) Your father, Abraham,
rejoiced to see My day. He say it and was glad.
It would be nice to tie in approval for Jesus from Abraham, but,
Abraham knew nothing of Jesus or a messiah, or anything Christian.
I have tried, and failed to find any event in the Old Testament
which corresponds to John's little prophecy. It is par for the
course to see St. John making up Old Testament backings, just like
his forerunner Matthew. Many Christians know that their faith has
many of its foundations in such fraud, and it is surprising they
still cling to it.
The Potter's
Field:
We are told that Jesus was betrayed while in Jerusalem by
one of his followers, Judas Iscariot. Matthew writes,
[Mt 27.5-10] And throwing down the pieces of silver
in the temple, [Judas] departed... But, the chief
priests, taking the silver, said, "It isn't lawful for
us to put it in the treasury, since it is blood
money." So they... bought a potter's field with it to
bury strangers in... Then was fulfilled what was
spoken by the prophet Jeremiah,
"And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price
of him on whom a price had been set by some of the
sons of Israel, and they gave them for the potter's
field, as the lord directed me."
This prophecy is an utterly gross bastardisation of Old Testament
Scripture. First, Matthew has made a mistake regarding the name
of the prophet. It is Zechariah who utters the verses which
Matthew makes use of.
[Zech. 11.12-13] ...And they weighed out my wages,
thirty shekels of silver. Then YHVH said to me, "Cast
them to the treasury," --the lordly price at which I
was paid off by them. So I took the thirty shekels of
silver and cast them into the treasury in the house of
YHVH.
First of all, the verses of Zechariah do not deal with a betrayer
of the messiah, or of G'd. The deal with a shepherd, most likely
a priest, chosen to serve a function of presiding over the people
shortly before G'd would send Judah and Israel into conflict with
one another. The word, "treasury," had been replaced by the King
James Scholars with "to the potter," precisely because this made
Matthew's quote fit better. But, this is a blatant error. The
correct translation of the Hebrew is indeed "treasury," which also
makes perfect sense in Zechariah's context, whereas "potter's
field" is totally unrelated. Whether the mistranslation was
intentional or not seems to be beyond speculation. However, given
Matthew's track record, one finds it hard to resist the notion of
intentional dishonesty.
Of course, Matthew would have ample reason for altering the
text. The thirty pieces of silver match Judas's situation, and if
as most Christians seem to be, the reader is willing to disregard
the contextual incongruity, Matthew might have another prophecy to
toss around. However, the correct translation of Zechariah
directly contradicts the situation with Judas and the high
priests. The high priests would not put the money in the
treasury. The worthless shepherd of Zechariah does exactly the
opposite! Of course, to the average Thursday-Night Bible student,
the "prophecy" as presented by Matthew would be taken at New
Testament face value. To those, Matthew's work is convincing
enough.
Wine, Vinegar,
& Casting Lots:
Then, Jesus is led away to be crucified.
[Mt 27.34-35] ...they gave him vinegar to drink,
mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not
drink it. And, when they had crucified him, they
divided his garments among them by casting lots: that
it might be fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet,
"They parted my garments among them, and upon my
vesture did they cast lots."
First of all, the vinegar offered to Jesus is actually common sour
wine, of the type that Roman soldiers drank regularly. We find
that right before Jesus dies, the soldiers themselves give him
some to drink --not polluted with gall.
[Jn 19.28-30] Jesus... said, "I thirst." A bowl of
vinegar stood there, so they put a sponge full of the
vinegar on hyssop and held it to his mouth. When he
had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished;"
But, Matthew seems to be drawing on, not a passage from the
prophets, but one from the Psalms.
[Ps 69.20-28] I looked for pity, but there was none;
and for comforters, but I found none. They gave me
poison for food (lit. they put gall in my meat), and
for my thirst, they gave me vinegar to drink... Add
to them punishment upon punishment, may they have no
acquittal from thee. Let them be blotted out of the
Book of the Living.
Of course, the sour wine offered to Jesus is done at his request
of drink. This does indeed seem to be a show of pity. The psalm
quoted is about David and his political and military enemies. It
is not about the messiah or Jesus. It is then not surprising that
we run into further problem when we see that the "Jesus" in the
psalm asks G'd for the damnation of the "crucifiers," whereas the
Jesus of the gospels says,
[Lk 23.34] Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, the
don't know what they do!"
Further, Matthew misses with his attempt to create prophecy by
having gall (a bitter substance) put into Jesus's drink, not his
meat, as the psalm stipulates.
With the "prophecy" of the vinegar faulty, we naturally
ask, "What of the casting of lots?" This brings up the 22nd
Psalm, which deserves discussion all by itself. Suffice it now to
say that the fact that Jesus's clothes were divided as told is no
great thing. It turns out that this happened often to any felon
in those days. As we will soon see, it is perhaps the least
erroneous passage of the psalm when applied to Jesus. It does
indeed bring up the interesting question as to the quality of
Jesus's clothes. For a man so removed from worldly possessions,
his ownership of clothes worthy of casting lots raises some
suspicions.
The 22nd Psalm:
This psalm is attributed to David, as a lament of his
condition under the attack of his enemies. It becomes a song of
praise to YHVH and of hope. Taken out of context, parts of it
seem to fit the plight of Jesus at the crucifixion quite well. We
will examine the primary passages.
Verse 1-2: My god, my god! why have you forsaken me?!
Why are you so far from helping me, far from the words
of my groaning? Oh, my god, I cry by day, but you
don't answer, and by night, but find no rest.
Jesus is said to have cried the first sentence while on the cross.
This suggests that the whole psalm is really about Jesus, rather
than king David. Of course, the rest of the first stanza does not
fit as nicely to Jesus or his execution. Jesus is not pictured as
complaining about the whole ordeal, he is supposed to be like "the
lamb led mute before its shearers." Indeed, Jesus doesn't do much
groaning, even when on the cross. He certainly does not cry by
both day and night on the cross.
6-8: But, I am a worm, and no man-- scorned by men...
All who see me mock at me. They make faces and wag
their heads; "He committed his cause to YHVH. So let
him deliver him... for he delights in him."
This seems to fit Jesus's execution pretty well, with the
exception of the Holy messiah being called a worm.
12-13: Many bulls encompass me... they open their
mouths widely at me like a ravening and roaring lion.
16-18: Yea, dogs are round about me, a company of
evildoers encir-cle me, they have pierced my hands and
feet. I can see all my bones... They divide my
garments among them, and cast lost for my raiment.
19-21: But you, YHVH, be not far away! ...Deliver my
soul from the sword, my life from the power of the
dog! Save me from the mouth of the lion, and my
afflicted soul from the horns of the wild bull!
It would seem quite convincing, and I'm sure the early Christian
fathers who wrote of this prophecy thought so too. Unfortunately,
this prophecy has a fatal flaw. The words "have pierced" really
do not exist in the psalm. The correct Hebrew translation is,
16: Yea, dogs are round about me, a company of
evildoers encircles me, like the lion, they are at my
hands and feet...
In Hebrew the phrase "like the lion" and a very rare verb form
which can mean "pierced" differ by one phonetic character. The
word in the Hebrew text is literally, "like the lion" (ka'ari),
which makes sense in the context, and even further fits the animal
imagery employed by the psalm writer. It is convenience that
would urge a Christian to change the word to "ka'aru." But, to
add the needed (yet artificial) weight to the "prophecy" this is
just what the Christian translators have chosen to do. While the
correct translation does not eliminate the psalm from referring to
Jesus, its absence does not say much for the honesty of the
translators.
Apart from the erroneous verse 16, the psalm does not lend
itself to Jesus so easily. Verse 20 speaks of the sufferer being
saved from a sword rather than a cross. This naturally fits the
psalm's true subject, king David. As a side note, we now know
that crucifixions did not pierce the hands, the palms, but rather
the forearms. This doesn't say much in favour of the traditional
thought of a resurrected Jesus showing his disciples the scars on
his palms. But then, facts aren't bound by our religious beliefs.
Matthew escapes culpability this time, as he does not
attempt to draw many direct links between this psalm and his lord
Jesus. But the psalm, like many others, was on the minds of all
the gospel writers when they compiled the stories and
interpretations of Jesus's life and death. How much these
scriptures may have contributed to what actually got written down
is a question that has serious repercussions for Christian
theology. It is easy to see, for those who are not faithful
fundamentalists, how some of the events in the New Testament might
have been "enhanced" by scribes such as the eager Matthew. But,
it does less to speculate than to simply investigate scriptural
matters and prophetic claims. So far, this has not said good
things for St. Matthew.
The reference to the piercing looks a lot like Jesus's
crucifixion. John's gospel recount, written about 70 years after
the fact, tells us at Jesus's execution,
[Jn 19.34,37] But one of the soldiers pierced his
side with a spear, and out came blood and water...
these things took place that Scripture be fulfilled...
"The will look on him whom they've pierced."
Of course, this is built on a passage taken blatantly out of
context. Prophet Zechariah tells us how much of the nation of
Israel will split off from Jerusalem and Judah and go to war with
them.
[Zc 12.7-10] And YHVH will give victory to Judah...
And on that day, I will seek to destroy the nations
that come against Jerusalem (in Judah). And I will
pour a spirit of compassion and supplication... on
Jerusalem so that when they look on him who they have
pierced, they will mourn, and weep bitterly over him
like you weep over a firstborn child.
John's attempt to make up prophecy is perhaps weaker that
Matthew's attempts. Matthew, at least, usually excontexts more
than just one passage. John's errors are grossly obvious and
blatant here. It does not speak well for any of the gospel
writers, as it helps to show how the prophetic aspects of their
religion were founded.
Reckoned with
Transgressors:
After his arrest, Jesus is quickly executed for claiming
the Jewish kingship, messiahship. According to one version of
the gospel tale, Jesus gets executed along with two thieves.
[Mk 15.27] And with him they crucified two robbers,
one on his right, one on his left. And so the
scripture was fulfilled which says,
"He was reckoned with the transgressors."
Here, Mark is trying to link Jesus to a passage in Isaiah 53,
about the servant nation of Israel. The passage is not about the
messiah, for if one reads the whole chapter of Isaiah 53, and its
surrounding chapters, one sees that the servant is a nation. The
verses are also about what this servant has gone through in the
past, not a prediction of what is to come, in any event. The
servant is thought of as a criminal. This also happens to fit the
description of Jesus. Had the passage really been about the
messiah, it still is not at all clear why executing Jesus between
two thieves would fulfill the "prophecy" in Isaiah. Jesus would
more fittingly fulfill it with his whole ministry. He was
considered a blasphemer and troublemaker all throughout his
career. Locking onto a single event is a rather poor way to
steal prophecy, at least in this case, as we see that Mark could
have had made a better analogy with general comparisons.
Mark goes on to tell us how "those who were crucified with
[Jesus] also reviled him." [15.32] This is to be expected from a
couple of robbers. Of course in his later recount, St. Luke
decides to change some things. Luke tells us,
[Lk 23.39-43] And one of the criminals who was hanged
with him railed, "Aren't you the messiah?! Save
yourself, and us!"
This certainly fits with Mark's recount, which tells how the
people who crucified Jesus said, "Save yourself!" and that the
robbers did the same. But then Luke goes on,
But the other [criminal] rebuked [the first] saying,
"Don't you fear G'd, since you are under the same
sentence of condemnation? And we, indeed justly so,
for we are receiving the due reward for our deeds.
But, this man has done nothing wrong. And he said,
"Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom."
And Jesus answered, "Verily I say to you, today you
will be with me in paradise."
Now, this little dialogue seems highly contrived. It stretches
the imagination a bit to see this picture of one ruffian rebuking
his fellow criminal with such eloquent speech. We have a rather
strange picture of a criminal lamenting over the goodness of his
punishment and the justness of his suffering. Such a man,
apparently noble and of principle, doesn't seem likely to have
been a robber. We wonder at the amount of theatrics created by
Luke. Of course, Luke's recount also disagrees with Mark's.
Luke has only one criminal revile Jesus, not both. It is easy
enough to discount the discrepancy because the account was made
up, but those who wish to believe it is all part of the error free
words of G'd do not have this avenue open. This is yet another
example of a writer trying to take an Old Testament passage and
expand it and reinterpret it to suit his theology. In this case,
the embroidery creates some embarrassing problems, as we have
seen.
The End of the
World--
Mt. 24:
Now comes perhaps one of the most extraordinary and
embarrassing passages in the New Testament. It is found in all
three of the synoptic gospel stories, and casts some of the most
unfavourable doubt on the whole theory of Christianity. Jesus
mentions the destruction of the Jewish temples and buildings, and
his disciples ask him about this, and about the end of the world
which he has been warning about.
The disciples: Tell us, when will this [the temple's
destruction] be, and what will be the sign of your
coming, and of the close of the age?
Jesus: Take care that no one leads you astray, for
many will come in my name, saying, "I am the christ."
...you will hear of wars and rumours of wars... for
this must take place, but the end is not yet. For,
nation will rise against nation... all this is but the
beginning of the birthpangs.
They will deliver you up... put you to death,
and false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
...But he who endures to the end will be saved. This
gospel will be preached throughout the whole world, a
testimony to the nations, and then the end will come.
So, when you see the desolation spoken of by the
prophet Daniel, ...let those who are in Judea flee to
the mountains.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days,
the sun will be darkened... the stars will fall from
heaven... then will appear the sign of the Son of Man
in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn,
and see the Son of Man coming... and he will send out
his angels... and gather his elect...
Learn the lesson of the fig tree: as soon as its
branch becomes tender and puts forth leaves, you know
that summer is near. So also, when you see all these
things, you will know that He is near, at the very
gate. Truly I say to you, this generation will not
pass away until all these things take place...
But, of the day and hour, no one knows; not the
angels, not the Son, but only the Father... Therefore,
you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming
at an hour you do not expect.
From this, it is clear that Jesus thought the world would in
within the lifetimes of at least some of his disciples. He tells
them that although he doesn't know the exact day or hour, that it
will come, and thus they must be ready. Theologians have wet
their pants in panic to find some way out of this Holy Error.
But, unfortunately, Jesus made himself to explicit. He told his
disciples that their generation would still be around at the End,
and that they in particular should prepare for it, prepare to be
swept away.
There have been some who resorted to removing the inerrant
nature of the Bible, and said that the phrase, "this generation
shall not pass away..." really means "this race of people will not
pass away..." Of course, the word for generation is used many
times to refer to exactly that, the generation of the disciples.
It is an interesting notion that when God decided to learn Greek,
he didn't learn it well enough to make himself clear. But. it is
quite obvious from the rest of the dialogue that the disciples (at
least some of them) are supposed to live to the End of the World.
The charge of mistranslation is completely blown away by looking
at the Apostles' responses. It becomes abundantly clear from
Rev. 22.7, 1 Peter 4.7, 1 John 2.18, and Rev. 22.20, that Jesus
meant exactly what he said. The End was very near.
For 2,000 years, Christians have rationalised this 24th
chapter of Matthew, or ignored its meaning altogether. For 2,000
years, they have waited for their executed leader to come back,
hearing of wars, and rumours of wars, sure that He is coming soon.
Surely He must be. All we must do is wait. Can you imagine how
tired He must be, sitting around up there, being holy, waiting for
just the right moment to spring?
So, shortly after his crucifixion, Jesus of Nazareth,
(Joshua-ben-Joseph), died. It is said that after three days, or
three days and three nights, or three periods of time, or three
eternal seconds --or three of whatever they can decide makes for
less trouble-- he was seen again, resurrected, glowing with divine
radiance. Then the Saviour decided it wasn't in the best
interests of his new religion to stick around, and therefore
disappeared from sight into heaven. So the story goes, anyway.
As has been seen, there were many things attributed to Jesus when
people got around to writing the gospel stories down. To them,
Jesus was the fulfiller of all prophecy and scripture. We have
seen, though, that this matter is quite shaky. But, throughout
Church history, Christians have held fast to faith, in simple
belief. What doctrinal objections could not be solved with
argumentation or brute force, faith and forgetfulness kept away
from question. To question and investigate has never been the
easiest way to treat matters. Thus for 2,000 years, the
prophecies cited in the New Testament have gone on largely
accepted. Things may well continue that way for some time.
Pausing a moment to consider the way the doctrines of Christianity
have been accepted and used (properly or improperly) to support
wars and persecution, I suppose there is one prophecy of which
Christianity can securely keep hold. | 0 | alt.atheism |
Ever hear about cutting off the electricity? That was done.
How effective is an electric stove then? | 16 | talk.politics.guns |
: > Not to pick on Mr. May in particular, of course, but isn't this
: >kind of the domino theory? When one little country falls, its neighbor
: >will surely follow, and before you know it, we're all mining salt
: >in Siberia for not turning in our Captain Crunch Secret Decoder Rings.
:
: But, for all the wrongness of our attempt to correct it (VietNam, et. al.),
: the domino theory wasn't disproved at all.
Ironically, the domino theory in fact *was* a reasonable metaphor for
the collapse of communism, from the liberalizations in Poland and
Hungary to the border crossings in the summer of '89 to the fall of
the Wall later that year....and then to the ultimate collapse of the
USSR.
-Tim May | 11 | sci.crypt |
Which sort of loans and what have you heard exactly?
| 0 | alt.atheism |
I've been using the Build59 drivers on a GW2K 4DX2-66V for several
weeks with no problems. I'm running Windows in 1024x758 and all software
I've run has worked fine. This includes many games and the CD-based
multi-media encyclopedia, on which the full-motion video works fine.
I'd recommend you give them a try.
-- John
| 3 | comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware |
As I've mentioned in the rules posting, I will be out of town until the
day before the entry deadline, so I won't be able to respond to your
messages until April 18.
I would be grateful if someone could repost the rules and instructions for
the playoff pool sometime next week, for the benefit of those who missed the
first two postings.
Thanks.
--
Andrew Scott | andrew@idacom.hp.com
HP IDACOM Telecom Operation | (403) 462-0666 ext. 253 | 10 | rec.sport.hockey |
Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violatins in Azerbaijan #009
Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| |
| There were about six burned people in there, and the small |
| corpse of a burned child. It was gruesome. I suffered a |
| tremendous shock. There were about ten people there, but the |
| doctor on duty said that because of the numbers they were being |
| taken to Baku. There was a woman's corpse there too, she had |
| been . . . well, there was part of a body there . . . a |
| hacked-off part of a woman's body. It was something terrible. |
| |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
DEPOSITION OF ROMAN ALEKSANDROVICH GAMBARIAN
Born 1954
Senior Engineer
Sumgait Automotive Transport Production Association
Resident at Building 17/33B, Apartment 40
Microdistrict No. 3
Sumgait [Azerbaijan]
What happened in Sumgait was a great tragedy, an awful tragedy for us, the
Armenian people, and for all of mankind. A genocide of Armenians took place
during peacetime.
And it was a great tragedy for me personally, because I lost my father in
those days. He was still young. Born in 1926.
On that day, February 28, we were at home. Of course we had heard that there
was unrest in town, my younger brother Aleksandr had told us about it. But we
didn't think . . . we thought that everything would happen outdoors, that they
wouldn't go into people's apartments. About five o'clock we saw a large crowd
near the Kosmos movie theater in our microdistrict. We were sitting at home
watching television. We go out on the balcony and see the crowd pour into Mir
Street. This is right near downtown, next to the airline ticket office, our
house is right nearby. That day there was a group of policeman with shields
there. They threw rocks at those policemen. Then they moved off in the
direction of our building. They burned a motorcycle in our courtyard and
started shouting for Armenians to come out of the building. We switched off
the light. As it turns out, their signal was just the opposite: to turn on the
light. That meant that it was an Azerbaijani home. We, of course, didn't know
and thought that if they saw lights on they would come to our apartment.
Suddenly there's pounding on the door. We go to the door, all four of us:
there were four of us in the apartment. Father, Mother, my younger brother
Aleksandr, and I. He was born in 1959. My father was a veteran of World War
II and had fought in China and in the Soviet Far East; he was a pilot.
We went to the door and they started pounding on it harder, breaking it down
with axes. We start to talk to them in Azerbaijani, "What's going on? What's
happened?" They say, "Armenians, get out of here!" We don't open the door, we
say, "If we have to leave, we'll leave, we'll leave tomorrow." They say, "No,
leave now, get out of here, Armenian dogs, get out of here!" By now they've
broken the door both on the lock and the hinge sides. We hold them off as best
we can, my father and I on one side, and my mother and brother on the other.
We had prepared ourselves: we had several hammers and an axe in the apartment,
and grabbed what we could find to defend ourselves. They broke in the door and
when the door gave way, we held it for another half-hour. No neighbors, no
police and no one from the city government came to our aid the whole time. We
held the door. They started to smash the door on the lock side, first with an
axe, and then with a crowbar.
When the door gave way--they tore it off its hinges--Sasha hit one of them
with the axe. The axe flew out of his hands. They also had axes, crowbars,
pipes, and special rods made from armature shafts. One of them hit my father
in the head. The pressure from the mob was immense. When we retreated into the
room, one of them hit my mother, too, in the left part of her face. My brother
Sasha and I fought back, of course. Sasha is quite strong and hot-tempered, he
was the judo champion of Sumgait. We had hammers in our hands, and we injured
several of the bandits--in the heads and in the eyes, all that went on. But
they, the injured ones, fell back, and others came to take their places, there
were many of them.
The door fell down at an angle. The mob tried to remove the door, so as to go
into the second room and to continue . . . to finish us off. Father brought
skewers and gave them to Sasha and me--we flew at them when we saw Father
bleeding: his face was covered with blood, he had been wounded in the head,
and his whole face was bloody. We just threw ourselves on them when we saw
that. We threw ourselves at the mob and drove back the ones in the hall, drove
them down to the third floor. We came out on the landing, but a group of the
bandits remained in one of the rooms they were smashing all the furniture in
there, having closed the door behind them. We started tearing the door off to
chase away the remaining ones or finish them. Then a man, an imposing man of
about 40, an Azerbaijani, came in. When he was coming in, Father fell down and
Mother flew to him, and started to cry out. I jumped out onto the balcony and
started calling an ambulance, but then the mob started throwing stones through
the windows of our veranda and kitchen. We live on the fourth floor. And no
one came. I went into the room. It seemed to me that this man was the leader
of the group. He was respectably dressed in a hat and a trench coat with a
fur collar. And he addressed my mother in Azerbaijani: "What's with you,
woman, why are you shouting? What happened? Why are you shouting like that?"
She says, "What do you mean, what happened? You killed somebody!" My father
was a musician, he played the clarinet, he played at many weddings, Armenian
and Azerbaijani, he played for many years. Everyone knew him. Mother says,
"The person who you killed played at thousands of Azerbaijani weddings, he
brought so much joy to people, and you killed that person." He says, "You
don't need to shout, stop shouting." And when they heard the voice of this
man, the 15 to 18 people who were in the other room opened the door and
started running out. We chased after them, but they ran away. That man left,
too. As we were later told, downstairs one of them told the others, I don't
know if it was from fright or what, told them that we had firearms, even
though we only fought with hammers and an axe. We raced to Father and started
to massage his heart, but it was already too late. We asked the neighbors to
call an ambulance. The ambulance never came, although we waited for it all
evening and all through the night.
Somewhere around midnight about 15 policemen came. They informed us they were
from Khachmas. They said, "We heard that a group was here at your place, you
have our condolences." They told us not to touch anything and left. Father lay
in the room.
So we stayed home. Each of us took a hammer and a knife. We sat at home. Well,
we say, if they descend on us again we'll defend ourselves. Somewhere around
one o'clock in the morning two people came from the Sumgait Procuracy,
investigators. They say, "Leave everything just how it is, we're coming back
here soon and will bring an expert who will record and photograph everything."
Then people came from the Republic Procuracy too, but no one helped us take
Father away. The morning came and the neighbors arrived. We wanted to take
Father away somehow. We called the Procuracy and the police a couple of times,
but no one came. We called an ambulance, and nobody came. Then one of the
neighbors said that the bandits were coming to our place again and we should
hide. We secured the door somehow or other. We left Father in the room and
went up to the neighbor's.
The excesses began again in the morning. The bandits came in several vehicles,
ZIL panel trucks, and threw themselves out of the vehicles like . . . a
landing force near the center of town. Our building was located right there. A
crowd formed. Then they started fighting with the soldiers. Then, in Buildings
19 and 20, that's next to the airline ticket office, they started breaking
into Armenian apartments, destroying property, and stealing. The Armenians
weren't at home, they had managed to flee and hide somewhere. And again they
poured in the direction of our building. They were shouting that there were
some Armenians left on the fourth floor, meaning us. "They're up there, still,
up there. Let's go kill them!" They broke up all the furniture remaining in
the two rooms, threw it outside, and burned it in large fires. We were hiding
one floor up. Something heavy fell. Sasha threw himself toward the door
shouting that it was probably Father, they had thrown Father, were defiling
the corpse, probably throwing it in the fire, going to burn it. I heard it,
and the sound was kind of hollow, and I said, "No, that's from some of the
furniture." Mother and I pounced on Sasha and stopped him somehow, and calmed
him down.
The mob left somewhere around eight o'clock. They smashed open the door and
went into the apartment of the neighbors across from us. They were also
Armenians, they had left for another city.
The father of the neighbor who was concealing us came and said, "Are you
crazy? Why are you hiding Armenians? Don't you now they're checking all the
apartments? They could kill you and them!" And to us :" . . . Come on, leave
this apartment!" We went down to the third floor, to some other neighbors'. At
first the man didn't want to let us in, but then one of his sons asked him and
he relented. We stayed there until eleven o'clock at night. We heard the sound
of motors. The neighbors said that it was armored personnel carriers. We went
downstairs. There was a light on in the room where we left Father. In the
other rooms, as we found out later, all the chandeliers had been torn down.
They left only one bulb. The bulb was burning, which probably was a signal
they had agreed on because there was a light burning in every apartment in our
Microdistrict 3 where there had been a pogrom.
With the help of the soldiers we made it to the City Party Committee and were
saved. Our salvation--my mother's, my brother's, and mine,--was purely
accidental, because, as we later found out from the neighbors, someone in the
crowd shouted that we had firearms up there. Well, we fought, but we were only
able to save Mother. We couldn't save Father. We inflicted many injuries on
the bandits, some of them serious. But others came to take their places. We
were also wounded, there was blood, and we were scratched all over--we got our
share. It was a miracle we survived. We were saved by a miracle and the
troops. And if troops hadn't come to Sumgait, the slaughter would have been
even greater: probably all the Armenians would have been victims of the
genocide.
Through an acquaintance at the City Party Committee I was able to contact the
leadership of the military unit that was brought into the city, and at their
orders we were assigned special people to accompany us, experts. We went to '
pick up Father's corpse. We took it to the morgue. This was about two o'clock
in the morning, it was already March 1, it was raining very hard and it was
quite cold, and we were wearing only our suits. When my brother and I carried
Father into the morgue we saw the burned and disfigured corpses. There were
about six burned people in there, and the small corpse of a burned child. It
was gruesome. I suffered a tremendous shock. There were about ten people
there, but the doctor on duty said that because of the numbers they were being
taken to Baku. There was a woman's corpse there too, she had been . . . well,
there was part of a body there . . . a hacked-off part of a woman's body. It
was something terrible. The morgue was guarded by the landing force . . . The
child that had been killed was only ten or twelve years old. It was impossible
to tell if it was a boy or a girl because the corpse was burned. There was a
man there, too, several men. You couldn't tell anything because their faces
were disfigured, they were in such awful condition...
Now two and a half months have passed. Every day I recall with horror what
happened in the city of Sumgait. Every day: my father, and the death of my
father, and how we fought, and the people's sorrow, and especially the morgue.
I still want to say that 70 years have passed since Soviet power was
established, and up to the very last minute we could not conceive of what
happened in Sumgait. It will go down in history.
I'm particularly surprised that the mob wasn't even afraid of the troops. They
even fought the soldiers. Many soldiers were wounded. The mob threw fuel
mixtures onto the armored personnel carriers, setting them on fire. They
weren't afraid. They were so sure of their impunity that they attacked our
troops. I saw the clashes on February 29 near the airline ticket office, right
across from our building. And that mob was fighting with the soldiers. The
inhabitants of some of the buildings, also Azerbaijanis, threw rocks at the
soldiers from windows, balconies, even cinder blocks and glass tanks. They
weren't afraid of them. I say they were sure of their impunity. When we were
at the neighbors' and when they were robbing homes near the airline ticket
office I called the police at number 3-20-02 and said that they were robbing
Armenian apartments and burning homes. And they told me that they knew that
they were being burned. During those days no one from the police department
came to anyone's aid. No one came to help us, either, to our home, even though
perhaps they could have come and saved us.
As we later found out the mob was given free vodka and drugs, near the bus
station. Rocks were distributed in all parts of town to be thrown and used in
fighting. So I think all of it was arranged in advance. They even knew in
which buildings and apartments the Armenians lived, on which floors--they had
lists, the bandits. You can tell that the "operation" was planned in advance.
Thanks, of course, to our troops, to the country's leadership, and to the
leadership of the Ministry of Defense for helping us, thanks to the Russian
people, because the majority of the troops were Russians, and the troops
suffered losses, too. I want to express this gratitude in the name of my
family and in the name of all Armenians, and in the name of all Sumgait
Armenians. For coming in time and averting terrible things: worse would
have happened if that mob had not been stopped on time.
At present an investigation is being conducted on the part of the USSR
Procuracy. I want to say that those bandits should receive the severest
possible punishment, because if they don't, the tragedy, the genocide, could
happen again. Everyone should see that the most severe punishment is meted
out for such deeds.
Very many bandits and hardened hooligans took part in the unrest, in the mass
disturbances. The mobs were huge. At present not all of them have been caught,
very few of them have been, I think, judging by the newspaper reports. There
were around 80 people near our building alone, that's how many people took
part in the pogrom of our building all in all.
They should all receive the most severe punishment so that others see that
retribution awaits those who perform such acts.
May 18, 1988
Yerevan
- - - reference - - -
[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 153-157
| 17 | talk.politics.mideast |
I haven't seen anyone post this so I will do the honors.
Maine beat LSSU 5-4 in Milwaukee on Saturday night. It was quite a game.
Maine stormed to a 2-0 lead in the first and looked like they might run away
with it. Maine's first goal came inside the first thirty seconds of the game.
LSSU came back at the end of the period to cut the lead to 2-1.
LSSU came out in the second dominating the play particularly along the boards.
The play went quickly with the refs running a no-holds-barred type of game.
LSSU scored three more unanswered goals to lead 4-2 at the end of the second.
Now it looked like LSSU might just walk away with the game.
Coach Walsh, of Maine, replaced the starting goalie Dunham with Snow, who won
the game against Michigan. Snow proved to be a much more aggressive goalie.
The third period, like the second, belonged to the team behind. Maine scored
three unanswered goals in a span of five minutes after the four minute mark.
They were all scored by Jim Montgomery, the tournament MVP, and all assisted by
Paul Kariya.
The last minute of the game bears highlighting. The change to Snow also
proved the difference in the end. With one minute to go and with the LSSU
goalie pulled, Snow dueled with a LSSU forward in a amazing set of moves by
both. Snow won. It was a great way to end the game.
This year's three championships games were sold out last year in about one
month. The Bradley Center holds approximately 17,700.
| 10 | rec.sport.hockey |
Well, I dropped by the library yesterday, and picked up back copies
of the National Crime Survey (1986-1990) in an effort to examine what
it said about self-defense with a firearm.
I haven't ground through much in the way of numbers yet, but a couple
of things jumped out at me. First only 1986 and 1987 specify the type of
weapon used in self defense. 1988, 1989, and 1990 refer only to "weapon."
The second is that while assaults rose about 3% from 1986 to 1987, w/gun
defenses reported *fell* by almost 25%. Unless there's an explanation for
this, I'm tempted to mark it as a reporting problem, and as such going
ahead with any examination of the numbers would be a waste of time.
Anybody have an idea what might have cause a real difference, and
not just a reporting difference? The survey doesn't appear to have
changed significantly between 1986 and 1987.
| 16 | talk.politics.guns |
Yo' Joe, why don't you post what you really think?
If there are any rational BMWMOA folks left out there, may the rest of
us please have a brief summary of the current state of affairs in your
esteemed organization, together with an historical outline of how you
got to the above contretemps?
Points will be deducted for shouting or bulging veins in the temple area. | 8 | rec.motorcycles |
Not particularly *in* the World Series. During the season, he was probably
more valuable than, say, putting Olerud out there to pitch, but yeah, he
*was* valuable in getting them there. In the postseason, he sucked dirty
canal water through a straw. The Jays won *in spite* of Morris much more
than *because of* him.
Umm, Roger? Return with us to those halcyon days of a few postings ago,
where the poster Valentine was replying to used # of WS rings as a measure
of better. The concept is called "context", and you should really become
familiar with it someday.
Unless this transaltes to "Clemens hasn't gone into Lou Gorman's office with
a large caliber handgun and refused to come out until he'd been traded to
the Jays," I'm at a complete loss as to any possible meaning for it.
What on earth does this mean? Over their careers, Clemens has "won" 68% of
the games he's started, Morris 58%. Per year, Clemens has averaged nearly 17
wins, Morris just under 15. Would you grant the proposition that preventing
the other team from scoring increases your chances of winning a game? If
so, then consider that Clemens allows 2.8 runs/9 innings pitched. Morris
allows nearly a run more per nine innings. In fact, Jack Morris has never in
his career had an ERA for a single year as good as Clemens' career ERA. But
I forget, in the Maynardverse there was obviously some mystical significance
to Buckner missing that grounder in 1986; had Morris been on the Sox, it
would have been a routine groundout, right?
Speaking of stupid, it has been patiently (and not-so-patiently) explained to
you many times that attributing greatness to players based on the
accomplishments of their teams makes about as much sense as claiming that
a racecar has the most attractive paint job because it won the race. Your
continued failure to not only understand but even to intelligently reply to
any of the arguments presented leads me to the conclusion that you must have
spent a few too many games in goal without a mask.
No one is crying; the Jays won, and as a team they certainly deserved to win
at least the AL East. They performed well in two short series and won the
World Series, and I congratulate them for it. As a Red Sox fan, I hope they
keep Morris. I was happy when they picked up Stewart, and elated when they
traded for Darrin Jackson. You see, unless you believe in some mystical link
between Morris and the offense, you can hardly help but believe that the man
was credited with so many wins last year because he got lucky. Luck runs
out, just like it did in 1982 when he pitched 50-odd more innings than 1992,
gave up exactly *one* earned run more than in 1992, and went 17-16.
Seriously, Roger, I'd really like to hear your explanation of the difference
between the 1982 Morris and the 1992 Morris. Which one was a better pitcher,
and why? Did Morris somehow "learn how to win" in the intervening ten years?
If so, then why did he go 18-12 in 1991 with Minnesota with an ERA over half
a run lower than 1992?
Mike Jones | AIX High-End Development | mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com | 9 | rec.sport.baseball |
Joni Ciarletta writes
You are not alone. My '79 Honda Accord with 110,000 miles on it started
showing the same behavior.
I replaced the brake master cylinder myself. It took about an hour and cost
about $45. Sure beats paying $300 to have someone else do it! If I wanted to
rebuild my own master cylinder instead of putting in a rebuilt one, it would
have cost only $20 to $30 for the rebuild kit.
The Honda brake master cylinder is easy to get to. Two bolts attach it to the
engine compartment. Two brake lines enter the master cylinder. The tricky
part was that the brake lines were stuck tight. My Craftsmen open end wrench
rounded off the bolt heads! I had to use Vise Grips to loosen those suckers.
Wow! Best invention since sliced bread. After that it was very easy. Bolt
the new part in place, add new brake fluid, and bleed the brakes. | 7 | rec.autos |
Yes, but in a fairly reproducible way. -40 is only a smidgen of the
distance to absolute zero. And in any case you're going to have to
borrow freezer space from a bio lab or someone to test/calibrate this
darling anyway. Btw, you're probably going to want those big capacitors
you found to fire the solenoid -- High current drain on frozen batteries
can be an ugly thing. | 12 | sci.electronics |
They'd probably quote Montesque (sp?) who was once asked if Russia
was likely to become a democracy any time soon: "No, because
Russia is a nation of slaves and the people get what they deserve."
Since he said that, Russia has changed a great deal. But so,
unfortunately have other nations. | 16 | talk.politics.guns |
Storage space for sale:
Iomega 44 MB removeable HD for sale w/ 16 cartridges.
Total storage space comes out to be about 750 MB. 6 cartridges still in
original shrinkwrapping, unused. Note: this is NOT compatible with
SysQuest 45 cartridges.
SCSI interface required... plugs right into the back of Macintoshes,
but I don't have a controller for the IBM. All utilities I have for it
are for the Mac. If you have a Mac, then this is for you! I have a
ton of software on these disks that I don't use anymore, because I sold
my mac system. Stuff included: Most of the PD stuff from info-mac
site, LOTS of GIF's, and LOTS of sound effects. (1 entire disk with
just sounds)
I am asking $900 for all, plus shipping.
For more information, send me mail (cxs2341@ultb.isc.rit.edu) or call
(716) 427-0701... ask for Sawran
cheers | 6 | misc.forsale |
Sooner than you expect. Remember 'Cyprus'?
Too bad. In fact, by 1942, Nazi Armenians in Europe had established
a vast network of pro-German collaborators, that extended over two
continents. Thousands of Armenians were serving the German army and
Waffen-SS in Russia and Western Europe. Armenians were involved in
espionage and fifth-column activities for Hitler in the Balkans and
Arabian Peninsula. They were promised an 'independent' state under
German 'protection' in an agreement signed by the 'Armenian National
Council.' (A copy of this agreement can be found in the 'Congressional
Record,' November 1, 1945; see Document 1.) On this side of the Atlantic,
Nazi Armenians were aware of their brethrens alliance. They had often
expressed pro-Nazi sentiments until America entered the war. In summary,
during World War II Armenians were carried away with the German might and
cringing and fawning over the Nazis. In that zeal, the Armenian publication
in Germany, Hairenik, carried statements as follows:[1]
"Sometimes it is difficult to eradicate these poisonous elements (the Jews)
when they have struck deep root like a chronic disease, and when it
becomes necessary for a people (the Nazis) to eradicate them in an uncommon
method, these attempts are regarded as revolutionary. During the surgical
operation, the flow of blood is a natural thing."
Now for a brief view of the Armenian genocide of the Muslims and Jews -
extracts from a letter dated December 11, 1983, published in the San
Francisco Chronicle, as an answer to a letter that had been published
in the same journal under the signature of one B. Amarian.
"...We have first hand information and evidence of Armenian atrocities
against our people (Jews)...Members of our family witnessed the
murder of 148 members of our family near Erzurum, Turkey, by Armenian
neighbors, bent on destroying anything and anybody remotely Jewish
and/or Muslim. Armenians should look to their own history and see
the havoc they and their ancestors perpetrated upon their neighbors...
Armenians were in league with Hitler in the last war, on his premise
to grant them self government if, in return, the Armenians would
help exterminate Jews...Armenians were also hearty proponents of
the anti-Semitic acts in league with the Russian Communists. Mr. Amarian!
I don't need your bias."
Signed Elihu Ben Levi, Vacaville, California.
[1] James G. Mandalian, 'Dro, Drastamat Kanayan,' in the 'Armenian
Review,' a Quarterly by the Hairenik Association, Inc., Summer:
June 1957, Vol. X, No. 2-38.
Serdar Argic | 17 | talk.politics.mideast |
3 | comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware |
|
I made a mistake on the posted article [been fighting food
poisoning for last 24 hours...]
The second paragraph should state the following...
"Doctors cleared Sandberg to swing a padded bat at a ball
on a tee and to catch a ball in his gloved hand."
Sorry for the error, didn't know it until after posting. | 9 | rec.sport.baseball |
I have lurked here a bit lately, and though some of the math is
unknown to me, found it interesting. I thought I would post an article I
found in the Saturday, April 17, 1993 Toronto Star:
'CLIPPER CHIP' to protect privacy
Washington (REUTER) - President Bill CLinton announced yesterday a
plan to plant a new "Clipper Chip" in every government telephone and
computer line to prevent eavesdropping.
Eventually the chips, developed by the government's National
Institute for Standards and Technology, would be used by commercial and
private electronics communication users.
The White House said that to assure privacy, each device containing
the encryption devices would be assigned two unique "keys" - numbers
that will be needed by government agencies to decode messages.
The attorney-general has been assigned the task of arranging that the
keys are deposited in two "key-escrow" data bases. Access to them would
be limited to government officials with legal authorization to conduct a
wiretap, the White House said in a statement.
-30-
Dan McKinnon | 11 | sci.crypt |
If anyone gets the New York Times, the Edit page has a transcript
of a VHS from Hams describing their methods of torture and
execution. I will post it later on.
| 17 | talk.politics.mideast |
Sony D-22 portable Diskman forsale
Good condition, flawless.
Costomer AC adapter : 6v DC power supply ( tested 9v DC)
* The factory adapter was tested 12v DC (AC 110v input) at the
time I bought it three years ago. When using it, a lot of heat
was generated inside the CD machine. Of course I wouldn't use
it to risk this baby's life. Maybe that's why so many owners
always complain about their portable machine going kaput after
a short time usage.
* 9v DC factory suggested
LED display
| 6 | misc.forsale |
It seemed pretty conclusive to me. The puck clearly hit the crossbar
and then came down on the line. And the announcers, admittedly homers,
kept harping about how they "must have had a different view upstairs"
because it was obvious to them, and, I would have thought, to anyone who
saw the replay, that the puck didn't go in. The referee originally
signalled no goal but the video replay "judges" initiated contact with
the referee to claim that a goal was in fact scored. This, to me, is
unheard of. Seeing stuff like this happen gives me a bad feeling about
the Leaf chances this year.
cordially, as always,
rm
| 10 | rec.sport.hockey |
Jews won't agree with you, Malcolm.
Cheers,
Kent | 19 | talk.religion.misc |
I've asked your god several times with all my heart to come to me. I
really wish I could believe in him, 'cos no matter how much confidence
I build up on my own, the universe *is* a big place, and it would be
so nice to know I have someone watching over me in it...
I've gone into this with an open mind. I've layed my beliefs aside
from time to time when I've had doubt, and I've prayed to see what
good that would do. I don't see what more I can do to open myself to
your god, short of just deciding to believe for no good reason. And
if I decide to believe for no good reason, why not believe in some
other god? Zeus seems like a pretty cool candidate...
All I know is that in all my searching, even though I've set aside my
pride and decided that I want to know the truth no matter how
difficult it may be to accept, I have never had any encounter with any
deity, Christian or otherwise.
Please tell me what more I can do while still remaining true to myself.
| 19 | talk.religion.misc |
I'll throw in a vote for a Metzler "economy" tire, the ME77. Good
for mid-size older bikes. Rated to 130mph. Wearing well and handles
my 12 mile ride(twisties) to work well on the SR500. Costs a bit
more than the Chengs/IRC's etc, but still less than the Sport
Metzlers for the newer bikes. Cost from Chaparral is about $60 for the
front, and $70 for the rear. | 8 | rec.motorcycles |
(a.k.a. Serdar Argic, The Merciful and Compassionate)
[Serdar Argic's bountiful, divine, all-knowing, and footnoted
wisdom is regrettably omitted for this solemn tribute.]
WHERE CAN I JOIN THE SERDAR ARGIC FAN CLUB? DO I GET A T-SHIRT?
--The Friendly Neighborhood Alien-- | 17 | talk.politics.mideast |
Am I justified in being pissed off at this doctor?
Last Saturday evening my 6 year old son cut his finger badly with a knife.
I took him to a local "Urgent and General Care" clinic at 5:50 pm. The
clinic was open till 6:00 pm. The receptionist went to the back and told the
doctor that we were there, and came back and told us the doctor would not
see us because she had someplace to go at 6:00 and did not want to be delayed
here. During the next few minutes, in response to my questions, with several
trips to the back room, the receptionist told me:
- the doctor was doing paperwork in the back,
- the doctor would not even look at his finger to advise us on going
to the emergency room;
- the doctor would not even speak to me;
- she would not tell me the doctor's name, or her own name;
- when asked who is in charge of the clinic, she said "I don't know."
I realize that a private clinic is not the same as an emergency room, but
I was quite angry at being turned away because the doctor did not want to
be bothered. My son did get three stitches at the emergency room. I'm still
trying to find out who is in charge of that clinic so I can write them a
letter. We will certainly never set foot in that clinic again.
| 13 | sci.med |
VHS movie for sale
Kevin Costner Dances withs Wolves
Just open and was used once, $12.00 or best offer, buyer will have
to pay shipping. ($1.00 for shipping)
Let me know if you are interested, and send your offer to this
e-mail address. Koutd@hirama.hiram.edu
thanks, | 6 | misc.forsale |
Last I checked I was one person, I haven't even been elected
as a representative for "gaydom". Should I ascribe every thing
you say as representing every member of the straight community?
Thats the point. If there are several million queers in DC you had better
start wondering about the validity of the study.
| 18 | talk.politics.misc |
Umm... I beg to differ with the phrase ``only conceivable meaning''.
The SDNS protocols, for example, make explicit provision for multiple
encryption systems, as does PEM. (And I'd love to see how they'd
mandate this new system for PEM without disclosing it....) | 11 | sci.crypt |
I bet it suddenly started sticking when you started leaving the PC running the
menu all night. There is a limitation/bug in the date roll-over software in
PC's that means you have to be doing something like waiting for keyboard input
via a DOS call rather than a BIOS call (as menus often use) otherwise the code
to update the date after midnight never gets called.
Somebody might be able to correct the details in case I've mis-rememberred
them, but I think you have to change the menu program (if you have the sources)
or add a TSR or system patch or something. As far as I know the CMOS clock
keeps the right time (in fact about 7 seconds/day better than DOS's clock). | 3 | comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware |
Taft Electronics, 45th Street between 5th & 6th -- the only one left in
what was once an entire district of electronics stores. A little expensive.
Trans-Am Electronics, Canal Street near 7th Ave -- lots of surplus type
stuff.
Several other electronics or "surplus" type places are still on Canal
Street.
I think Bronx Wholesale Radio is still in business -- Fordham Road not
too far from Arthur Avenue in the Bronx. Also in the Bronx is NorthEastern
(or was it Northwestern? Northeast Electronics?) on Jerome Avenue near
Bedford Park Boulevard. They're mostly a TV parts supply house, but when
I was building CB radio projects, they were quite handy.. | 12 | sci.electronics |
I don't think so at first, but solid state offered better reliabity,
id bet, and any lower costs would be only after the processes really scaled up. | 14 | sci.space |
On two separate occasions I saw Dick Allen (back when he was Richie)
homer at Shea off the middle of the black centerfield hitter's
background screen. I think both shots would have traveled 500 feet. | 9 | rec.sport.baseball |
Please realize that I am frequently getting in trouble for
straying from orthodoxy, but here is my opinion:
I never thought of these two ideas being "against" each other.
People might quibble about what "intrinsically" means but the
reason we are sinners is because we do not behave as good as we
are. The message of Christ is that each of us are not only good,
but great, that we can approach perfection, albeit perhaps through a
different technique than you claim Buddhism teaches. Because we do
not realize our greatness, we sin. Peter had no problem walking
on water until a little doubt crept in.
Doesn't David ask in the 8th Psalm "what is man that you [God]
should care for him, but you have made him just a little lower
than the angels"?
I probably exagerate in my mind what a scrawny little kid David
was, just as I probably exagerate what a gigantic monster Goliath
was, but David's power easily defeated Goliath's.
Remember the rich young man who comes up to Jesus and asks what
he can do to enter the Kingdom, Jesus says follow the commandments.
I always picture the smug look on his face as he says he's done that
his whole life, probably anticipating an "attaboy" from the
Messiah. Instead Jesus gives him a harder task, sell everything
and follow Him. Jesus is raising the bar. The desciples say
how can anyone do this if it's so hard even for rich people.
Jesus says anyone can do it, with God's help.
Jesus says not only can we avoid killing people, we can avoid
getting angry at people. Not only can we avoid committing
adultery, we can control our own desires.
I realize this was not your main point, but I wonder how other
people see this.
(Please forgive any generalizations I am about to make.)
Your point about how "hard" other religions are is a good one, just
as your "Parting Question" is a tough question. I think that Muslims
worship the same God as I do, we can learn from their name "submission".
Hindus and Buddhists and Taoists, etc. claim that "God" is impersonal.
Is God personal or impersonal? I say yes, but if I think a little
more my answer is whichever is greater. I think it is greater
to be a personal entity, with an individual consciousness, but
you're right that that might be a cultural bias. If I think more
I must admit that God's personal nature is as far beyond my
conception as His impersonal nature is beyond the Hindu's
conception. If somehow Jesus could fit into Hindu cosmology
then maybe I wouldn't have a problem, though that is hard to imagine.
Are there any former (or present) "Eastern Religion" members here
who could comment? | 15 | soc.religion.christian |
I've had my Fluke 8060A here at work for just over 10 years now.
It is a wonderful meter. Several colleagues here have some of the
newer Fluke meters, though I still would just as soon hang on to my
8060. The 8060 a is the 1980s digial "analog" to the Simpson 260
analog DMM of the 1950-1960s. There was/is (?) an 8060B that had
extended frequency response.
I've got a nifty little pen shaped meter made by Soar that I keep
in my toolbox at home. I've had that for six or seven years now
and only replaced the batteries a couple of timees; it is more than
adequate for day-to-day hobby use. I think Soar OEMs their stuff
for a number of vendors. Some of JDR Microdevices' stuff looks
rather similar to Soar's.
| 12 | sci.electronics |
Philadelphia 1 2 4--7
Buffalo 0 3 1--4
First period
1, Philadelphia, Recchi 52 (Galley, Lindros) 0:18.
Second period
2, Philadelphia, Hawgood 11 (Dineen, Eklund) pp, 2:15.
3, Philadelphia, Dineen 33 (McGill) sh, 5:40.
4, Buffalo, Barnaby 1 (Hawerchuk, Smehlik) pp, 7:48.
5, Buffalo, Wood 18 (LaFontaine, Ledyard) pp, 17:34.
6, Buffalo, Mogilny 75 (Hawerchuk, Carney) pp, 18:56.
Third period
7, Philadelphia, Eklund 11 (Dineen, Beranek) 4:42.
8, Buffalo, Mogilny 76 (Errey, LaFontaine) 5:24.
9, Philadelphia, Dineen 34 (Brind'Amour) pp, 6:44.
10, Philadelphia, Dineen 35 (Brind'Amour, Galley) sh, 8:39.
11, Philadelphia, Acton 8 (Dineen, Brind'Amour) 19:48.
Philadelphia: 7 Power play: 5-2 Special goals: pp: 2 sh: 2 Total: 4
Scorer G A Pts
--------------- --- --- ---
Acton 1 0 1
Beranek 0 1 1
Brind'Amour 0 3 3
Dineen 3 3 6
Eklund 1 1 2
Galley 0 2 2
Hawgood 1 0 1
Lindros 0 1 1
McGill 0 1 1
Recchi 1 0 1
Buffalo: 4 Power play: 10-3
Scorer G A Pts
--------------- --- --- ---
Barnaby 1 0 1
Carney 0 1 1
Errey 0 1 1
Hawerchuk 0 2 2
LaFontaine 0 2 2
Ledyard 0 1 1
Mogilny 2 0 2
Smehlik 0 1 1
Wood 1 0 1
-----------------------------------------
Minnesota 1 1 1--3
Detroit 0 2 3--5
First period
1, Minnesota, McPhee 18 (Ludwig) 1:23.
Second period
2, Minnesota, Dahlen 34 (Courtnall, Gagner) pp, 0:31.
3, Detroit, Drake 18 (Howe, Ogrodnick) 9:14.
4, Detroit, Ysebaert 34 (Lidstrom, Howe) pp, 17:37.
Third period
5, Detroit, Ciccarelli 41 (Coffey, Chiasson) pp, 0:32.
6, Detroit, Kennedy 19 (Burr, Probert) 3:42.
7, Detroit, Yzerman 58 (Ciccarelli, Gallant) 6:17.
8, Minnesota, Dahlen 35 (Courtnall, Gagner) 19:11.
Detroit: 5 Power play: 4-2
Scorer G A Pts
--------------- --- --- ---
Burr 0 1 1
Chiasson 0 1 1
Ciccarelli 1 1 2
Coffey 0 1 1
Drake 1 0 1
Gallant 0 1 1
Howe 0 2 2
Kennedy 1 0 1
Lidstrom 0 1 1
Ogrodnick 0 1 1
Probert 0 1 1
Ysebaert 1 0 1
Yzerman 1 0 1
Minnesota: 3 Power play: 2-1
Scorer G A Pts
--------------- --- --- ---
Courtnall 0 2 2
Dahlen 2 0 2
Gagner 0 2 2
Ludwig 0 1 1
McPhee 1 0 1
-----------------------------------------
Edmonton 0 0 0--0
Winnipeg 1 2 0--3
First period
1, Winnipeg, Shannon 20 (Steen, Davydov) pp, 2:08.
Second period
2, Winnipeg, Selanne 76 (Olausson) 5:25.
3, Winnipeg, Zhamnov 25 (Selanne) 19:42.
Third period
No scoring.
Winnipeg: 3 Power play: 6-1
Scorer G A Pts
--------------- --- --- ---
Davydov 0 1 1
Olausson 0 1 1
Selanne 1 1 2
Shannon 1 0 1
Steen 0 1 1
Zhamnov 1 0 1
Edmonton: 0 Power play: 3-0
No scoring
-----------------------------------------
Toronto 1 1 0--2
Chicago 0 2 1--3
First period
1, Toronto, Baumgartner 1 (unassisted) 18:40.
Second period
2, Chicago, Roenick 50 (Murphy, Chelios) 1:29.
3, Toronto, Andreychuk 55 (Mironov, Lefebvre) 13:22.
4, Chicago, Murphy 7 (Roenick, Chelios) pp, 19:05.
Third period
5, Chicago, Matteau 15 (unassisted) 10:51.
Error: Power play goal mismatch. Assuming calc value.
Error: Team: Toronto Calc: 0 Read: 1
Chicago: 3 Power play: 7-1
Scorer G A Pts
--------------- --- --- ---
Chelios 0 2 2
Matteau 1 0 1
Murphy 1 1 2
Roenick 1 1 2
Toronto: 2 Power play: 3-0
Scorer G A Pts
--------------- --- --- ---
Andreychuk 1 0 1
Baumgartner 1 0 1
Lefebvre 0 1 1
Mironov 0 1 1
-----------------------------------------
First period
1, St Louis, Shanahan 50 (Brown, Felsner) 10:44.
2, St Louis, Miller 23 (Bassen, Brown) 19:38.
3, St Louis, Bassen 8 (Zombo) 19:48.
Second period
4, St Louis, Bassen 9 (Hedican, Miller) 0:14.
5, St Louis, Miller 24 (Zombo, Hedican) 11:09.
6, Tampa Bay, Maltais 7(Hamrlik) 11:27.
7, Tampa Bay, Bergland 3 (Hervey, Gilhen) 17:16.
8, St Louis, Shanahan 51 (Emerson) 19:38.
Third period
9, Tampa Bay, Creighton 19 (Bergland, Bergevin) 0:40.
10, Tampa Bay, Chambers 10 (Zamuner, Cole) 10:37.
11, Tampa Bay, Cole 12 (Beers, Bradley) 11:58.
St Louis: 6 Power play: 4-0
Scorer G A Pts
--------------- --- --- ---
Bassen 2 1 3
Brown 0 2 2
Emerson 0 1 1
Felsner 0 1 1
Hedican 0 2 2
Miller 2 1 3
Shanahan 2 0 2
Zombo 0 2 2
Tampa Bay: 5 Power play: 3-0
Scorer G A Pts
--------------- --- --- ---
Beers 0 1 1
Bergevin 0 1 1
Bergland 1 1 2
Bradley 0 1 1
Chambers 1 0 1
Cole 1 1 2
Creighton 1 0 1
Gilhen 0 1 1
Hamrlik 0 1 1
Hervey 0 1 1
Maltais 1 0 1
Zamuner 0 1 1
-----------------------------------------
San Jose 0 1 2--3
Calgary 0 4 3--7
First period
No scoring.
Second period
1, San Jose, Garpenlov 22 (Odgers, Gaudreau) pp, 3:37.
2, Calgary, Nieuwendyk 38 (MacInnis, Suter) pp, 5:26.
3, Calgary, Ranheim 21 (Otto, Suter) 10:43.
4, Calgary, Yawney 1 (Nieuwendyk, Roberts) 11:26.
5, Calgary, Berube 4 (Paslawski, Skrudland) 13:45.
Third period
6, San Jose, Wood 1 (Odgers, Kisio) 8:00.
7, Calgary, Reichel 40 (unassisted) 9:26.
8, Calgary, Roberts 38 (Musil, Paslawski) pp, 12:27.
9, San Jose, Kisio 26 (unassisted) 13:10.
10, Calgary, Paslawski 18 (Ashton, Stern) 16:16.
Calgary: 7 Power play: 4-2
Scorer G A Pts
--------------- --- --- ---
Ashton 0 1 1
Berube 1 0 1
MacInnis 0 1 1
Musil 0 1 1
Nieuwendyk 1 1 2
Otto 0 1 1
Paslawski 1 2 3
Ranheim 1 0 1
Reichel 1 0 1
Roberts 1 1 2
Skrudland 0 1 1
Stern 0 1 1
Suter 0 2 2
Yawney 1 0 1
San Jose: 3 Power play: 3-1
Scorer G A Pts
--------------- --- --- ---
Garpenlov 1 0 1
Gaudreau 0 1 1
Kisio 1 1 2
Odgers 0 2 2
Wood 1 0 1
-----------------------------------------
Vancouver 1 2 5--8
Los Angeles 2 3 1--6
First period
1, Los Angeles, Robitaille 63 (Gretzky, Sandstrom) 1:39.
2, Vancouver, Babych 3 (Craven, Nedved) pp, 9:43.
3, Los Angeles, Sandstrom 25 (Gretzky, Robitaille) 10:06.
Second period
4, Vancouver, Linden 32 (Ronning, Courtnall) pp, 0:54.
5, Vancouver, Ward 22 (Hunter, Nedved) 1:24.
6, Los Angeles, Gretzky 16 (Sandstrom, Robitaille) 6:57.
7, Los Angeles, Zhitnik 12 (Kurri, Robitaille) pp, 14:02.
8, Los Angeles, Millen 23 (Hardy) pp, 16:57.
Third period
9, Vancouver, Ronning 27 (Dirk) 5:28.
10, Vancouver, Ronning 28 (Courtnall, Linden) pp, 11:15.
11, Vancouver, Linden 33 (Courtnall, Ronning) 11:27.
12, Los Angeles, Donnelly 29 (Millen, Granato) pp, 14:35.
13, Vancouver, Courtnall 31 (Ronning, Ratushny) 14:54.
14, Vancouver, Ronning 29 (Linden, Diduck) en, 18:47.
Vancouver: 8 Power play: 6-3 Special goals: pp: 3 en: 1 Total: 4
Scorer G A Pts
--------------- --- --- ---
Babych 1 0 1
Courtnall 1 3 4
Craven 0 1 1
Diduck 0 1 1
Dirk 0 1 1
Hunter 0 1 1
Linden 2 2 4
Nedved 0 2 2
Ratushny 0 1 1
Ronning 3 3 6
Ward 1 0 1
Los Angeles: 6 Power play: 10-3
Scorer G A Pts
--------------- --- --- ---
Donnelly 1 0 1
Granato 0 1 1
Gretzky 1 2 3
Hardy 0 1 1
Kurri 0 1 1
Millen 1 1 2
Robitaille 1 3 4
Sandstrom 1 2 3
Zhitnik 1 0 1
| 10 | rec.sport.hockey |
: In article <C4u3x5.Fw7@magpie.linknet.com> manes@magpie.linknet.com (Steve
: [...]
: > I don't know how anyone can state that gun control could have NO
: > effect on homicide rates. There were over 250 >accidental< handgun
: > homicides in America in 1990, most with licensed weapons. More
: > American children accidentally shot other children last year (15)
: > than all the handgun homicides in Great Britain. (Source: National
: > Safety Council. Please... no dictionary arguments about RATES vs
: > TOTAL NUMBERS, okay? They're offered for emphasis, not comparison).
: >
: You're a great debater. You chose your sources of information, claim them
: to be superior,
I've made no such claim. Please direct my attention towards any
posting of mine where I claimed superior sources of information.
It's probably because I bothered to post any references at all while
others seem content to post numbers pulled from the ozone, that
you've confused it with fact-twisting. If so, I apologize.
: then take those twisted numbers and twist them further by trying
Well then, here's fair opportunity for you to prove that I've "twisted
numbers." On what grounds do you contradict those references? Do you have
any citations... any sources of your own that I can take similar
gratuitous shots at?
: to compare absolute numbers between two countries that have major population
: differences, the USA and GB, and then whine that you are afraid someone might
: attack your process, and so claim the numbers are for "emphasis, not
: comparison"? Emphasis of what?
Nitpicking and scolding is a whiney debating style, Jim.
: Anything else is blowing smoke.
You seddit, brudda.
| 16 | talk.politics.guns |
Excellent point. I hope to God that Ted Simmons doesn't get the weird
idea of trading for the guy. And if he does, he had better not
include Jeff King in the deal. Oh God--what if he traded Zane Smith
and Jeff King for Vaughn and Greg Blosser? It would be worse than The
Nichols Curse!
Hmm, I guess that doesn't sound sincere enough. Oh well, at least I
tried... | 9 | rec.sport.baseball |
[Please excuse me if this is inappropriate to post here, but I do not read
these groups normally and I did not see any PC related marketplace
newsgroups]
FOR SALE: Borland C++ with Application Frameworks 3.1 (Full Professional
Developer Kit)
Borland C++ Programming Package including unopened software, unopened
manuals, and registration card.
SOFTWARE INCLUDES:
1. *Still plastic wrapped* high density 5.25 inch disks for Borland C++:
total of 18 diskettes in 2 individually wrapped packages, each
disk has "Borland C++" and "BC++ & APP. FRAMEWORKS 3.1" on label
2. Amish System Utilities for Windows (one 5.25" high density disk):
Amish Launch
Amish Desk Utilities for Windows
3. Phar Lap's 286|DOS-Extender Lite Version 2.5 (one 5.25" HD disk)
MANUALS INCLUDE:
1. *Still Plastic Wrapped* Manuals include (i.e. unopened):
A. Boland Windows API Volumes:
I: Reference Guide
II: Reference Guide
III: Windows 3.1 Reference Guide
B. Borland Turbo Debugger 3.0 User's Guide
C. Borland Turbo Profiler 3.0 User's Guide
D. Borland Turbo Assembler 3.0 Users Guide
E. Borland C++ 3.1 User's Guide:
integrated environment
optimization
command line compiler
installation
F. Borland C++ 3.1 Programmer's Guide:
language structure, class libraries, advanced prgramming
techniques, anci c implementaion
G. Borland C++ 3.1 Library Reference:
runtime library, global variables, cross-reference
H. Borland C++ 3.1 Tools and Utilities Guide:
error messages, winsightm make, help/resource compilers,
tlink
I. Borland Object Windows for C++ User's Guide:
tutorials, class reference
2. Opened (no plastic wrapping, but unread) Manuals include:
A. Borland Turbo Assembler 3.0 Quick Reference Guide
B. Borland Turbo Vision for C++ User's Guide
C. Borland Resource Workshop User's Guide
This package was purchased by a former employee of my father's and my
father has asked me to try and sell it since neither of us have any use
for it.
Retails for $749, most software houses have it for approx. $480. I am
asking $400.
If you are interested, please e-mail me directly because I do not normally
read this newsgroup.
| 2 | comp.os.ms-windows.misc |
=================================================================
I am posting this for someone else. Please respond to the
address listed below. Please also excuse the duplication as this
message has been crossposted. Thanks!
=================================================================
REQUEST FOR IDEAS FOR APPLICATIONS OF REMOTE SENSING DATABASES
VIA THE INTERNET
NASA is planning to expand the domain of users of its Earth and space science
data. This effort will:
o Use the evolving infrastructure of the U.S. Global Change Research
Program including the Mission To Planet Earth (MTPE) and the Earth
Observing System Data and Information System (EOSDIS) Programs.
o Use the Internet, particularly the High Performance Computing and
Communications Program's NREN (National Research and Education
Network), as a means of providing access to and distribution of
science data and images and value added products.
o Provide broad access to and utilization of remotely sensed images in
cooperation with other agencies (especially NOAA, EPA, DOE, DEd,
DOI/USGS, and USDA).
o Support remote sensing image and data users and development
communities.
The user and development communities to be included (but not limited to) as
part of this effort are educators, commercial application developers (e.g.,
television weather forecasters), librarians, publishers, agriculture
specialists, transportation, forestry, state and local government planners, and
aqua business.
This program will be initiated in 1994. Your assistance is requested to
identify potential applications of remote sensing images and data. We would
like your ideas for potential application areas to assist with development of
the Implementation Plan.
PLEASE NOTE: THIS IS NOT A REQUEST FOR PROPOSALS.
We are seeking your ideas in these areas:
(1) Potential commercial use of remote sensing data and images;
(2) Potential noncommercial use of remote sensing data and images in
education (especially levels K-12) and other noncommercial areas;
(3) Types of on-line capabilities and protocols to make the data more
accessible;
(4) Additional points of contacts for ideas; and
(5) Addresses and names from whom to request proposals.
For your convenience, a standard format for responses is included below. Feel
free to amend it as necessary. Either e-mail or fax your responses to us by
May 5, 1993.
E-MAIL: On Internet "rsdwg@orion.ossa.hq.nasa.gov" ASCII - No binary
attachments please
FAX: Ernie Lucier, c/o RSDWG, NASA HQ, FAX 202-358-3098
Survey responses in the following formats may also be placed in the FTP
directory ~ftp/pub/RSDWG on orion.nasa.gov. Please indicate the format.
Acceptable formats are: Word for Windows 2.X, Macintosh Word 4.X and 5.X, and
RTF.
----------------------------RESPONSE FORMAT--------------------------
REQUEST FOR IDEAS FOR APPLICATIONS OF REMOTE SENSING DATABASES VIA THE INTERNET
(1) Potential commercial use of remote sensing data and images (if possible,
identify the relevant types of data or science products, user tools, and
standards).
(2) Uses of remote sensing data and images in education (especially levels
K-12) and other noncommercial areas (if possible, identify the relevant types
of data or science products, user tools, and standards).
(3) Types of on-line capabilities and protocols to make the data and images
more accessible (if possible, identify relevant types of formats, standards,
and user tools)
(4) Additional suggested persons or organizations that may be resources for
further ideas on applications areas. Please include: Name, Organization,
Address and Telephone Number.
(5) Organizations, mailing lists (electronic and paper), periodicals, etc. to
whom a solicitation for proposals should be sent when developed. Please
include: Name, Organization, Address and Telephone Number.
(6) We would benefit from knowing why users that know about NASA remote
sensing data do not use the data. Is it because they do not have ties to NASA
investigators, or high cost, lack of accessibility, incompatible data formats,
poor area of interest coverage, inadequate spatial or spectral resolution, ...?
| 14 | sci.space |
Howdy
We have been having a real problem with an AST 386sx/16 machine with
4mb of RAM. We installed Paradox for Windows, (but I don't think
Paradox is the real problem here), and the installation went ok
(windows is installed on a local drive, paradox installed on a novell
network (netware 386 v3.26 or greater), DOS 5, Win 3.1) but the program
will not load in 386 enchanted mode. The thermometer bar goes to 60%
and we then either get a 'invalid command.com' or a windows nastygram
talking about an illegal instruction. I've checked out the command.com
thing, but as a long-time C programmer, I've crashed my share of machines
with pointer problems and this is a standard behavior :-)
Anyway, paradox will run in standard mode, but not enhanced. We also have
quattro pro windows, exhibiting the same behavior. Spent about 2 hours
with Borland's tech people, with no avail. The guy I talked to a microsoft
didn't want to really dig in and help, as he gave up pretty quickly.
Somewhat disappointing, really. I expected more from Microsoft. You'd think
with all the millions of windows installations that they would have seen all
the possible problems, but I guess not...
Microsoft had sent us a 13 page fax on fixing UAE and General
Protection faults (sorry, I can't fax anything out of here so please
don't ask, try Microsoft), which we tried. We did *everything* they
said, and still no luck.
So. If you can help, please mail me. This problem is driving us nuts.
I will greatly appreciate any information anyone can pass on.
Thanks
Kelly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
THIS IS THE REAL SIGNATURE...Please ignore the following demon signature..
Kelly J. Grant grantk@nosc.mil
4045 Hancock St (619) 225-2562 "The next time someone asks you if you
San Diego, CA 92110 are a god, you say YES!" :-)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 2 | comp.os.ms-windows.misc |
The Supreme Court seems to disagree with you -- they have stated that
"the people" is a term of art refering to an individual right, and
have explicitly mentioned the second amendment as an example.
I quote:
"... 'the people' seems to have been a term of art employed in
select parts of the Constitution. The Preamble declares that the
Constitution is ordained, and established by 'the people of the
the U.S.' The Second Amendment protects the right of the people
to keep and bear Arms ...."
- Supreme Court of the U.S., U.S. v. Uerdugo-Uriquidez (1990).
Furthermore, in the Miller decision, they only permitted prosecution
for possession of a sawed-off shotgun because the defense had not
presented testimony and they therefore accepted the argument of the
government that such weapons have no military value -- they held that
the amendment protected the individual right to possess military
weapons. Unfortunately, no second amendment case has successfully
gotten to the court in fifty years. However, that does not change the
interpretation.
Furthermore, it appears that others disagree with you as well, vis:
"The conclusion is thus inescapable that the history, concept,
and wording of the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the
United States, as well as its interpretation by every major
commentator and court in the first half-century after its ratifi-
cation, indicates that what is protected is an individual right
of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful manner."
- Report of the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the
Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate,
97th Congress, Second Session ( February 1982 )
You might rightfully ask "well then, what does that first bit about
militias mean?"
Well, "militia" in historical context basically means the whole of the
adult males of the country. (Indeed, the U.S. Code still defines
"militia" as all armed men over the age of 17).
"The Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting
in concert for the common defense .... And ... these men were
expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of
the kind in common use at the time."
- Supreme Court of the United States, U.S. v. Miller (1939).
The reason for the phrase being there was to explain the rationale
behind the amendment, which was this: by depending on the people to
bear arms in defense of the country, no centralization of military
power could ever occur which would permit tyranny -- in short, the
government would remain perpetually in fear of the people, rather than
the other way around.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason
for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last
resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
- Thomas Jefferson, Proposal Virginia Constitution, June 1776
1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C. J. Boyd, Ed., 1950).
"And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not
warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance ? Let them take arms ... The tree of liberty must be
refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Thomas Jefferson (letter to William S. Smith, 1787, in
Jefferson, On Democracy 20, S. Padover, ed., 1939).
"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed;
as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme
power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword;
because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute
a force superior to any bands of regular troops that can be, on
any pretense, raised in the United States."
- Noah Webster, "An Examination into the Leading Principles
of the Federal Constitution" (1787), in Pamphlets on the
Constitution of the United States (P. Ford, 1888).
You may disagree with the second amendment, and wish that it be
repealed, but please do not pretend that it isn't there and that it
doesn't mean what it says. You might argue that conditions have
changed and that it should no longer be present, but you can't imagine
it away.
I could fill a book with detailed argumentation. Many have already.
However, none of this has anything to do with cryptography. Lets get
it out of here. If you insist on discussing this, please do it in
talk.politics.guns, where people will gladly discuss this matter with
you.
--
Perry Metzger pmetzger@shearson.com | 11 | sci.crypt |
[reply to mcovingt@aisun3.ai.uga.edu (Michael Covington)]
The guy didn't sound too shy to me. He sounded like a jerk. I say ditch
him for someone more knowledgeable and empathetic. | 13 | sci.med |
Close Roger, but no banana, er avocado or is it artichoke ?!?
Geracie in the Murky News said Kingston will be the new 49ers
quarterback. I'm still trying to determine if he is kidding
or not :). If I happen to pound down enuff pints sometime
this week I'll go back and check what stooper idiot Purdy
said in his column. That ought to be worth a few Leafs, I
mean Laughs. If I'm really depressed I'll read the SF Comicle.
mark
just say | 10 | rec.sport.hockey |
addition,
Bricklins were manufactured in the 70s with engines from Ford. They are rather
odd looking with the encased front bumper. There aren't a lot of them around,
but Hemmings (Motor News) ususally has ten or so listed. Basically, they are a
performance Ford with new styling slapped on top.
Rush fan?
| 7 | rec.autos |
: Help: I am running some sample problems from O'Reilly volume 4,
: Xt Intrisics Programming Manual, chapter 3. popup
: dialog boxes and so on.
:
: In example 3.5, page 76 : "Creating a pop-up dialog box"
:
: The application creates window with a button "Quit" and "Press me".
: The button "Press me" pops up a dialog box. The strange feature of
: this program is that it always pops up the dialog box much faster the
: first time. If I try to pop it up a 2nd time (3rd, 4th .... time),
: it is *much* slower.
:
: Has anyone any experience with these sample programs, or why I get
: this behaviour - fast response time for the first time but slow response
: time from 2nd time onwards ?
: Anyone can give me some ideas on how to program popups so that each time
: they popup in reasonable fast response time ?
:
: Thankyou - Shirley
Thanks to those who responded.
We were able to prevent this behaviour by two methods:
1) running twm rather than olwm
2) keeping olwm, but putting "wmTimeout: 10" in the resources
It has been suggested that the difficuty was something to do with the
window manager positioning the popup window. Any guru who can analyse
what is going on from this information, please post and let us know. | 5 | comp.windows.x |
all of my HO's disagree with your HO's. I LOVED Dallas rush hour in my stick..
detested it in the auto(like i did any other time in the auto...). Of course,
Dalls rush hours are nothing, from what i hear..if i lived in LA, i might
be of a different persuasion. And, just for the record, rarely do you shift
gears when merging into traffic..that is what 5 speeds are good for..4th is
good up through around 80-90, most of the time, so you can just wind it out..
it's not going to hurt anything, and keeps it in the powerband anyway..
only shift into top gear when you are exceeding redline in 4th(fairly rare,
unless you drive a ferrari or some such, i'd bet) or when you hit cruising
speed where you feel comfortable(or when my mother is sitting in the
passanger seat complaining about how you wind her "poor little engine" way
too hi :-)
Just my HO's.. | 7 | rec.autos |
Christian anti-Semitism comes from the obvious fact that the Jews should
know the Hebrew Scriptures better than anyone else, yet they did not
convert to Christianity en mass, thus rejecting "Christian Love."
| 19 | talk.religion.misc |
Has anyone taken a look at the new ViewSonic 17? They claim 1280x1024 at 76Hz.
How does it compare with the T560i in terms of price, and quality of display?
| 3 | comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware |
Just a few lines about my favorite team sweeping the Dodgers (one of
my least favorite) in LA (Sweet!). Also the Mets (my other least
favorite team) loss to the Rockies made this this a great day and a
great start to the weekend as the Cardinals are on the ESPN tonight.
Big Lee Smith is having a great start and the Cardinals seem to be
hitting in the clutch even though they have had a few games with lots
of hits and not many runs. Hopefully with the coaches stress on
situational hitting in spring training, the runners LOB will be lower
this year (probably due to the high strikeout numbers by Jose and
Lankford and Zeile's off year).
I don't know why all the fuss about the Fillies. The media and all the
Filly fans on r.s.b forget who is right behind them in the standings.
Give the Wild Thing a week or two before he starts blowing some games
and we'll see who is in first then. I believe the Cardinal pitching
staff is more complete than the Filly staff and that will make the
difference.
On a side note, a few years ago (5-6), a comment was made by some
baseball player or manager about the Dodger defense. He was asked
where to hit the ball against the Dodgers and he replied "Fair." I
remember it being in the "They Said It" section of Sports Illustrated.
I would like to know who said it and what issue it was in.
GO REDBIRDS!! | 9 | rec.sport.baseball |
I have a problem where an Athena strip chart widget is not calling it's
get value function. I am pretty sure this is happening because I am
not using XtAppMainLoop, but am dealing with events via sockets. (ya ya).
Anyway, I want to cause a timeout so that the strip chart widget(s) will
call their get value callback. Or if someone knows another FAST way around
this (or any way for that matter) let me know. I cannot (or I don't think)
call the XtNgetValue callback myself because I don't have the value for
the third parameter of the get value proc (XtPointer call_data).
In other words, I want to force a strip chart widget to update itself.
Any ideas anyone?
| 5 | comp.windows.x |
Well, Druce pretty much sucked when he was with the Caps. He had one
good **playoffs** (not season). oh well. The Caps are notorious for making
stupid trades anyway, as can be seen with the Cicarelli and Hrivnak trades.
Sigh.
In another note... I'd have to say the Caps biggest surprise was
Cote, as many Caps fans had been expecting a lot from Bondra already.
| 10 | rec.sport.hockey |
There has been some talk recently of Latin rites from the early Church used to
bless same-sex unions.If anyone has any idea where copies of these rites
exist (in whole or in part), please notify me by e-mail. (I understand that
similar ceremonies written in Slavonic exist as well. Let me know where I can
find these.) It doesn't matter whether the Latin rite is in the original or a
translation. However, I would prefer to have an English version of the Slavon-
ic rite, if it exists. Thanks in advance.
Doug Hayes @ PSU | 15 | soc.religion.christian |
(Pleading mode on)
Please! I'm begging you! Quit confusing religious groups, and stop
making generalizations! I'm a Protestant! I'm an evangelical! I don't
believe that my way is the only way! I'm not a "creation scientist"! I
don't think that homosexuals should be hung by their toenails!
If you want to discuss bible thumpers, you would be better off singling
out (and making obtuse generalizations about) Fundamentalists. If you
compared the actions of Presbyterians or Methodists with those of Southern
Baptists, you would think that they were different religions!
Please, prejudice is about thinking that all people of a group are the
same, so please don't write off all Protestants or all evangelicals!
(Pleading mode off.)
God.......I wish I could get ahold of all the Thomas Stories...... | 19 | talk.religion.misc |
You're right: Thomas, Gonzalez, Sheffield, and Griffey don't even begin
to compare with Ripken, Boggs, and Gwynn, so no wonder Alomar gets so
much attention.
Sandberg got no attention his rookie year because his rookie year was
terrible. So was his sophomore year.
National League pitchers are "much better pitchers"? That certainly explains
Sheffield's 1993, hm? Are you confusing "have ERA's that are 0.40 lower
because they don't face DH's" with "much better"? | 9 | rec.sport.baseball |
Hi there!
Could some kind soul tell me what is the price of LC/IIvi/IIvx
compatible 512kb VRAM SIMMs in the US nowadays? The price over here
(Finland) is so ridiculously high (about $185 each in USD) that I
think it is worth the trouble to try to get them overseas.
Thanks
| 4 | comp.sys.mac.hardware |
JB> RR> "I don't doubt that the placebo effect is alive and well with
JB> RR> EVERY medical modality - estimated by some to be around 20+%,
JB> RR> but why would it be higher with alternative versus conventional
JB> RR> medicine?"
JB>
JB> Because most the the time, closer to 90% in my experience, there is no
JB> substance to the 'alternative' intervention beyond the good intentions of the
JB> practitioner, which in itself is quite therapeutic. [.......]
JB>
JB> John Badanes, DC, CA
JB> romdas@uclink.berkeley.edu
Well, if that's the case in YOUR practice, I have a hard time
figuring out how you even managed to make it into the bottom half
of your class, or did you create your diplomas with crayons?
If someone runs a medical practice with only a 10% success rate,
they either tackle problems for which they are not qualified to
treat, or they have no conscience and are only in business for
fraudulent purposes.
OTOH, who are we kidding, the New England Medical Journal in 1984
ran the heading: "Ninety Percent of Diseases are not Treatable by
Drugs or Surgery," which has been echoed by several other reports.
No wonder MDs are not amused with alternative medicine, since
the 20% magic of the "placebo effect" would award alternative
practitioners twice the success rate of conventional medicine...
--Ron-- | 13 | sci.med |
I have two questions:
1) I have been having troubles with my Wordperfect for Windows.
When I try to select and change fonts, etc. some of the text
disappears. I tried to center two lines once, and the second
line disappeared. I can not find the error, and I do not
know how to correct it.
2) Is this the right newsgroup? Where should I go?
E-mail prefered...
_____
Who else is still waiting for "Naked Gun Part (Pi) | | " | 2 | comp.os.ms-windows.misc |
long
The NRA is successful because (among a number of things), on the drop of
a hat, they can get a congresspersons office flooded with postcards,
faxes and phone calls. Certainly, with our way-cool Internet powers of
organization, we can act in the same way, if such action is appropriate.
As long as we are kept informed of events, anyone on this bboard can make
a call to action. Hopefully, we're a strong enough community to act on
those calls. I realize this is a little optomistic, and I'm glad EFF is
working in the loop on these issues, but don't underestimate the
potential of the net for political action. | 11 | sci.crypt |
I really don't know where to post this question so I figured that
this board would be most appropriate.
I was wondering about those massive concrete cylinders that
are ever present at nuclear poer sites. They look like cylinders
that have been pinched in the middle. Does anybody know what the
actual purpose of those things are?. I hear that they're called
'Cooling Towers' but what the heck do they cool?
I hope someone can help
| 12 | sci.electronics |
excuse me for my ignorance. But I remember reading once that the
Biblical tribe known as the Philistines still exists...they are the modern
day Palestinians.
Anyone out there with more info, please post it!!! | 0 | alt.atheism |
I've been hearing rumblings about Fresco, and it sounds like it may be
what I'm looking for, but how far is it from release, or at least some kind
of availability? How similar is it to InterViews? If I code to InterViews,
will my code work with Fresco? How about Motif? I've heard some mention
of versions of InterViews which support Motif. Will it be feasible to use
Motif with Fresco?
Any information would be much appreciated.
- Brad | 5 | comp.windows.x |
As a minor point of interest, earlier news reports claim to have
been quoting the Governor of Texas when Her Holiness referred to
the Dividians as _Mormons_ and called for their expulsion
from TX. Any Texans have details?
| 16 | talk.politics.guns |
Hi folks.
I'm going to be buying my first bike and I'm considering an 82
Honda Ascot FT500 with less than 5K miles. Does this sound like a
reasonable choice? Is there anything special I need to know?
Thanks. | 8 | rec.motorcycles |
Has anyone had experience with the new Greenleaf CommLib 4.0? I can't even
get their demo winterm to run at 4800 baud without dropping characters.
tnx, steve | 2 | comp.os.ms-windows.misc |
My wife and I looked at, and drove one last fall. This was a 1992 model.
It was WAYYYYYYYYY underpowered. I could not imagine driving it in the
mountains here in Colorado at anything approaching highway speeds. I
have read that the new 1993 models have a newer, improved hp engine.
I'm quite serious that I laughed in the salesman face when he said "once
it's broken in it will feel more powerful". I had been used to driving a
Jeep 4.0L 190hp engine. I believe the 92's Land Cruisers (Land Yachts)
were 3.0L, the sames as the 4Runner, which is also underpowered (in my
own personal opinion).
They are big cars, very roomy, but nothing spectacular.
| 7 | rec.autos |
Actually the govrnment is telling you that if you want to use their
"product" the manufacturer (actually better yet, some "trusted" pair
of escrow agencies) has to have the key.
Most of us already are in this situation--our car makers have keys to our
cars (or can get them quickly from the VIN number), and I have no doubt
that if presented with a court order, they'd surrender copies to the
government.
Chances are that many locksmiths have the code numbers for house locks
they've installed, and in an emergency can cut keys; thus they'd also
provide such keys to the government pursuant to a court order.
The state has no difficulty gaining access to your safe deposit box if they
have a court order.
Bad analogy.
This is not to argue for or against the proposal, but rather better
distinctions are required in thinking about it than "house key, safe-deposit
keys, etc.".
David | 11 | sci.crypt |
Very simple.
"X-Soviet Armenian government must pay for their crime of genocide
against 2.5 million Muslims by admitting to the crime and making
reparations to the Turks and Kurds."
After all, your criminal grandparents exterminated 2.5 million Muslim
people between 1914 and 1920.
<C5yyBt.5zo@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian)
You must be a new 'Arromdian'. You are counting on ASALA/SDPA/ARF
crooks and criminals to prove something for you? No wonder you are in
such a mess. That criminal idiot and 'its' forged/non-existent junk has
already been trashed out by Mutlu, Cosar, Akgun, Uludamar, Akman, Oflazer
and hundreds of people. Moreover, ASALA/SDPA/ARF criminals are responsible
for the massacre of the Turkish people that also prevent them from entering
Turkiye and TRNC. SDPA has yet to renounce its charter which specifically
calls for the second genocide of the Turkish people. This racist, barbarian
and criminal view has been touted by the fascist x-Soviet Armenian government
as merely a step on the road to said genocide.
Now where shall I begin?
#From: ahmet@eecg.toronto.edu (Parlakbilek Ahmet)
#Subject: YALANCI, LIAR : DAVIDIAN
#Keywords: Davidian, the biggest liar
#Message-ID: <1991Jan10.122057.11613@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>
Following is the article that Davidian claims that Hasan Mutlu is a liar:
[some parts are deleted]
- - -
Receiving this message, I checked the reference, L.Kuper,"Genocide..." and
what I have found was totally consistent with what Davidian said.The book
was like "voice of Armenian revolutionists" and although I read the whole book,
I could not find the original quota.
But there was one more thing to check:The original posting of Mutlu.I found
the original article of Mutlu.It is as follows:
======================================================================
======
QUATO IS THE SAME, REFERENCE IS DIFFERENT !
DAVIDIAN LIED AGAIN, AND THIS TIME HE CHANGED THE ORIGINAL POSTING OF MUTLU
JUST TO ACCUSE HIM TO BE A LIAR.
Davidian, thank you for writing the page number correctly...
You are the biggest liar I have ever seen.This example showed me that tomorrow
you can lie again, and you may try to make me a liar this time.So I decided
not to read your articles and not to write answers to you.I also advise
all the netters to do the same.We can not prevent your lies, but at least
we may save time by not dealing with your lies.
And for the following line:
I also return all the insults you wrote about Mutlu to you.
I hope you will be drowned in your lies.
Ahmet PARLAKBILEK
#From: vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Vedat Dogan)
#Message-ID: <1993Apr8.233029.29094@news.columbia.edu>
n>crap posted by Mr. [(*]!
o boy!
Please, can you tell us why those quotes are "crap"?..because you do not
like them!!!...because they really exist...why?
As I said in my previous posting, those quotes exactly exist in the source
given by Serdar Argic ..
You couldn't reject it...
Here we go again..
In the book I have, both the front page and the Author's preface give
the same year: 1923 and 15 January, 1923, respectively!
(Anyone can check it at her/his library,if not, I can send you the copies of
pages, please ask by sct)
I really don't care what year it was first published(1923 or 1924)
What I care about is what the book writes about murders, tortures,et..in
the given quotes by Serdar Argic, and your denial of these quotes..and your
groundless accussations, etc.
[...]
I claim I have a book in my hand published in 1923(first publication)
and it exactly has the same quoted info as the book published
in 1934(Serdar Argic's Reference) has..You couldn't reject it..but, now you
are avoiding the real issues by twisting around..
Let's see how you lie!..(from 'non-existing' quotes to re-publication)
First you said there was no such a quote in the given reference..You
called Serdar Argic a liar!..
I said to you, NO, MR.Davidian, there exactly existed such a quote...
(I even gave the call number, page numbers..you could't reject it.)
And now, you are lying again and talking about "modified,re-published book"
(without any proof :how, when, where, by whom, etc..)..
(by the way, how is it possible to re-publish the book in 1923 if it was
first published in 1924(your claim).I am sure that you have some 'pretty
well suited theories', as usual)
And I am ready to send the copies of the necessary pages to anybody who
wants to compare the fact and Mr.Davidian's lies...I also give the call number
and page numbers again for the library use, which are:
949.6 R 198
and the page numbers to verify the quotes:218 and 215
Now, are you claiming that there can't be such a reference by saying "it is
not possible..." ..If not, what is your point?
Differences in the number of pages?
Mine was published in 1923..Serdar Argic's was in 1934..
No need to use the same book size and the same letter
charachter in both publications,etc, etc.. does it give you an idea!!
The issue was not the number of pages the book has..or the year
first published..
And you tried to hide the whole point..
the point is that both books have the exactly the same quotes about
how moslems are killed, tortured,etc by Armenians..and those quotes given
by Serdar Argic exist!!
It was the issue, wasn't-it?
you were not able to object it...Does it bother you anyway?
You name all these tortures and murders (by Armenians) as a "crap"..
People who think like you are among the main reasons why the World still
has so many "craps" in the 1993.
Any question?
<C5wwqA.9wL@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
hovig@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hovig Heghinian)
Well, apparently we have another son of Dro 'the Butcher' to contend with.
You should indeed be happy to know that you rekindled a huge discussion on
distortions propagated by several of your contemporaries. If you feel
that you can simply act as an Armenian governmental crony in this forum
you will be sadly mistaken and duly embarrassed. This is not a lecture to
another historical revisionist and a genocide apologist, but a fact.
I will dissect article-by-article, paragraph-by-paragraph, line-by-line,
lie-by-lie, revision-by-revision, written by those on this net, who plan
to 'prove' that the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds is
nothing less than a classic un-redressed genocide. We are neither in
x-Soviet Union, nor in some similar ultra-nationalist fascist dictatorship,
that employs the dictates of Hitler to quell domestic unrest. Also, feel
free to distribute all responses to your nearest ASALA/SDPA/ARF terrorists,
the Armenian pseudo-scholars, or to those affiliated with the Armenian
criminal organizations.
Armenian government got away with the genocide of 2.5 million Turkish men,
women and children and is enjoying the fruits of that genocide. You, and
those like you, will not get away with the genocide's cover-up.
Not a chance.
Serdar Argic | 17 | talk.politics.mideast |
Perhaps we ought not to have supported a known genocidist?
Provided him with weapon systems, tactical support, technology,
etc.
We made Suddam Hussein.
What did Bush call him? Oh yes, an ally and a freind.
---
" I'd Cheat on Hillary Too." | 0 | alt.atheism |
I think this is a weak argument. The fact is, there are *two* references to
Jesus in _Antiquities of the Jews_, one of which has unquestionably at least
been altered by Christians. Origen wrote, in the third century, that
Josephus did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah, while the long passage
says the opposite. There is an Arabic manuscript of _Antiquities of the
Jews_ which contains a version of the passage which is much less gung-ho
for Jesus and may be authentic.
There is no question that Origen, in the third century, saw a reference
to Jesus in Josephus. There are no manuscripts of _Antiquities_ which
lack the references.
It is possible that it was fabricated out of whole cloth and inserted, but
I don't think it's very likely--nor do I think there is a consensus in
the scholarly community that this is the case. (I know G.A. Wells takes
this position, but that's because he takes the very small minority view
that Jesus never existed. And he is a professor of German, not of
biblical history or New Testament or anything directly relevant to
the historicity of Jesus.) | 19 | talk.religion.misc |
Mr DeCenso, in spite of requiring Scholarly opinion on the hanging of Judas,
rejects that the scholarly opinion of the those scholars and then rephrases
those scholars opinion on the subject:
and
Actually, if you do further research as to the Greek word "apacgw," you will
find that it does denote success. Those scholars did indeed have an excellent
reason to assume that the suicide was successful. As I pointed out, I
recently checked several Lexicons:
"Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament," Louw and Nida
"Robinson's Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament"
"Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament," Grimm
"Word study Concordance," Tynsdale
"A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament and other
early Christian Writings," Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich
"The New Analytical Greek Lexicon," Perschbacher
A couple simply stated "hanged oneself", and a couple were more explicit
and stated that "apacgw" means specifically "kill yourself by hanging." A
couple also noted that the meaning of one the root words for "apacgw" is
"strangle, throttle or choke" (which pretty much invalidates the guy who
suggested to David Joslin that Judas was hung upside down). One of the best
references though, "Robinson's Greek and English Lexicon of the New
Testament," not only stated the translation, it gave both the root words, the
literal translation, related greek words which use the same roots, and also
other presented specific examples of the word in greek literature (to give
further context).
The word "apagchw" has two root words: "gchw" is the "to strangle" root, and
the root word "apo" means literally "away." This root words is included in
words which denote a transition. It can mean a transition in place (eg: the
greek word "apagello" means to send a message). "Apo" can also denote a
change in state and specifically the change from life to death. Robinson
specifically makes comparison to the word "apokteiuo," which means "to kill."
In literal meaning the word "apacgw" means "to throttle, strangle to put out
of the way," and implicitly denotes a change in life state (ie: away from
life, to death). So while the word "apacgw" does mean "to hang," it
specifically denotes a death as well. Thus Robinson is quite specific when he
state that it means "to hang oneself, to end one's life by hanging." He then
notes the the use of "apacgw" in Homers Odessy 19:230 to denote context. He
presents that example of "apacgw" as being used to explicitly mean "suicide by
hanging." Now since there is a perfectly good word for strangling, without the
added denotation of "death," and as you insist that the Bible was written by
God, and every word is precicely correct, you are stuck with the complete
meaning of "apacgw" (ie: Since the word "apacgw" was used, then death is
denoted as the result).
By the way, I note that Mr DeCenso also presents an example of "apacgw":
Note Mr DeCenso, as you say, the Septuagint was a translation from Hebrew to
Greek, and you have not shown the original meaning of the Hebrew (ie" the the
Hebrew say "and died"), and thus whether it was simply echoed in the Greek.
It should also be pointed out that, regardless of the added "and died", the
correct translation would still be "apacgw," as the man did indeed die from
strangulation (redundant, but correct). Further, we have evidence that the
Septuagint was repeatedly rewritten and reedited (which included versions
which contradicted each other), and such editing was not even necessarily
executed by Greeks. Thus I am not sure that you can use the Septuagint as it
now stands, as a paragon of ancient greek. So, what you really need to prove
your point Mr DeCenso, is an example, in ancient greek, of someone committing
"apacgw" and surviving. Otherwise I would see you as simply making worthless
assertions without corresponding evidence.
Now I would note Mr DeCenso, that everytime I go out of my way to research it
one of your apparently contrived exegisis, I pretty much find it false. Thus,
I think that if you are going to add to the text, something over and above
what the source clearly says, then you had better have an explicit Greek or
historical source to justify it.
By the way, as to Mr Rose's statement about trees around the Potter's Field:
Unless Mr Rose can show that these trees are two thousand years old, or that
there are 2000 year old stumps there, or has a 2 thousand year old description
of the area which mentions such trees, then it is inappropriate for him to
assert that the present placement of trees prove the location of the trees two
thousand years ago (after all, things change).
Now as to your other argument, ie: that the money Judas used is not the same
as the 30 silvers:
True, Peter (or the author of Acts) does not specifically call Judas' betrayal
"an iniquity," but for that matter, neither does John specifically call Judas'
actions "an iniquity" either. Further John 13:29 did not say that Judas took
"Some thought that because, Judas had the money box, Jesus was telling
him "Buy what we need for the feast"; or that he should give something
to the poor, So after receiving the morsel he immediately went out, and
it was night."
Note that it is said that Judas left, it does not say that he took the money
box. Thus when I see your explanation it still seems to me you would choose
the a an unproven iniquity, mentioned by another author, in a different
book, written at a different time, over the iniquity explicitly mentioned by
the author of acts. I find this forced and contrived.
Of course this particular argument becomes moot, since we have have seen
evidence that "apacgw" means suicide. You see, since Judas' hanging was
successful, he could not have spent the money mentioned in John 13:29, because
Matthew and Mark explicitly say the betrayal was on the high holy day (ie:
Passover), and thus he could not have spent the money before killing himself
the next day. Thus the money which bought the "Field of Blood" would have to
have been the 30 pieces of silver (Of course he got the 30 pieces of silver
that night as well, and thus couldn't have spent that either. Oh dear, I
believe that the house of cards is comming down).
Maybe we should at this point, discuss now whether Jesus was crucified on
Friday or Saturday as that is now part of the argument about Judas.
By the way, as to where the prophesy of the Potter's field came from (ie: the
mention of it in Matthew), you say:
I am reminding you now to discuss it now. It's all part of the same verse we
are discussing, and I wish you would quit procrastinating and sidestepping
these issues.
Later,
Dave Butler
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.
David Hume, Philosopher
An Inquiry Concerning Human Understanding | 19 | talk.religion.misc |
What is address interliving? and memmory modules interliving?
Thanks in advance for the info.
Robert.
| 3 | comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware |
Pens-6 NJ Devils-6
FIRST PERIOD: SCORING: 1, Pittsburgh, Daniels(Needham, Tippett)4:14.
2, NJ Devils, C. Lemieux(Semak, Driver)10:19. 3, Pittsburgh, Stevens
(Tocchet, Murphy)12:40ppg. 4, NJ Devils, Zelepukin(Driver, Niedermayer)
17:26. PENALTIES: PGH, Stevens(roughing)1:30. NJD, Pellerin-double
minor(cross-checking)1:30. NJD, Zelepukin(tripping)7:21. NJD,
Stasny(holding)11:15. PGH, Taglianetti(roughing)13:51. NJD, Lemieux
(roughing)13:51. PGH, Jagr(tripping)15:23.
SECOND PERIOD: SCORING: 5, Pittsburgh, Lemieux(Murphy, Tocchet)1:42.
6, NJ Devils, Semak(Lemieux, Zelepukin)2:27. 7, Pittsburgh, McEachern
(Jagr, Barrasso)4:24. 8, NJD, Stevens(Guerin, Pellerin)5:45. 9,
Pittsburgh, Lemieux(unassisted)12:40shg. 10, NJ Devils, Richer
(Nicholls)15:53. 11, NJ Devils, Lemieux(Zelepukin)17:40. PENALTIES:
PGH, Stevens(roughing)3:06. NJD, McKay(roughing)3:06. PGH, Mullen
(hooking)10:42. PGH, Tocchet(roughing)12:06. NJD, Stevens(slashing)
12:06. NJD, Lemieux(unsportsmanlike conduct)12:40. PGH, U.
Samuelsson(cross checking)20:00. PGH, Barrasso-double minor(spearing)
served by McEachern, 20:00. NJD, Holik(cross checking)20:00. NJD,
Lemieux(roughing)20:00.
THIRD PERIOD: SCORING: 12, Pittsburgh, Mullen(Jagr, Lemieux)18:54.
PENALTIES: NJD, Daneyko(interference)3:37. PGH, Stevens(roughing)
9:18. NJD, Holik(roughing)9:18. PGH, match penalty-game misconduct,9:50.
NJD, Zelepukin(tripping)12:01. PGH, Stevens(roughing)18:41. NJD,
Daneyko(roughing)18:41.
OVERTIME: SCORING: No scoring. PENALTIES: No penalties.
SHOTS ON GOAL:
Pittsburgh: 9-11-8-2=30
NJ Devils: 12-15-9-3=39
GOALIES:
Barrasso(39 shots, 33 saves. 43-14-5)
Billington(30 shots, 24 saves)
REF: Devorski Linesmen: Gauthier, Vines | 10 | rec.sport.hockey |
I think he just wanted to get Henneman some work, because the
Tigers had days off both the day before and the day after. | 9 | rec.sport.baseball |
Last I had heard because of budget and such the Air Farce is the only "Space
Command" left.. The rest missions were generally given to the Air Farce..
Probably a good reason for me to transfer from the Army Guard to the Air
Guard..
I hate walking with a pack on my back, and how do you put on your application
for a job as a kitchen worker, that you have done a lot of KP (Kitchen
Police).. | 14 | sci.space |
^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^
Sounds pretty lame to me.
Let me see if I understand now. Your "friends" charge you extra?
Just how much do you usually have to pay for a little
friendliness? Seems like you're being "serviced" by some
"friendly" sales people.
| 8 | rec.motorcycles |
You must not have tried very hard. I just opend mine in about 2
seconds. Take a look on the bottom, it has a dial that turns to open
much like the older ADB mouses used to have. It's a bit harder to turn
at first but it is quite simple to open.
Well, if you don't match up the pins correctly you will have some
problems. A close look at the socket should give you an idea of the
proper orientation of the chip. | 4 | comp.sys.mac.hardware |
Hmmmm, I'm not sure this is true. According to Mike Lang and good old
Stagie, along with the rest of the TV crews in pittsburgh, they
winning streak could have stopped because it is a regular season mark.
I would think this would also hold with an unbeaten streak for regular
season games. | 10 | rec.sport.hockey |
Some weeks ago, someone posted an article telling when and where
a hamfest and computerfest was going to be help in Dayton, OH.
Unfortunately, I lost the article and I was wondering if someone
could repost it.
I believe it was being held the 23,24,and 25 of this month at
the Dayton convention center but I'm not sure.
Any help and more details would be greatly appreciated. | 12 | sci.electronics |
Called "gas".
The balloons were in sufficiently low orbit that they experienced
some air resistance. When they were finally punctured, this
preasure (and the internal preasure that was needed to maintain
a spherical shape against this resistance) caused them to
catastrophically deflated. The large silvered shards
that remained were easily visible for some time before
reentry, though no longer useful as a passive transponder. | 14 | sci.space |
It's in the FAQ.
have fun
gak
| 10 | rec.sport.hockey |
I have a vt200 and vt100 compatible terminal
with 1200 external hyess modem
amber screens 101 keyboard,cable
make an offer
0
| 6 | misc.forsale |
Obviously, you really don't know.
They *have* spoken out (cf Sec'y of State Christopher's recent trip to the ME),
they have provided millions in aid, and they have participated in the airlifts
to Sarajevo. They *would* supply military aid, if the UN would lift the embargo
on arms sales.
See above. (Kuwait has directly participated in the airlift of food to
Sarajevo.)
Hmm...some might say Kuwaitis are non-white. Ooops, I forgot, Kuwaitis are
"oil rich", "loaded with petro-dollars", etc so they don't count. | 17 | talk.politics.mideast |
I have noticed this exact same phenomenon occurs with my LCIII. Perhaps it is
a quirk of the new machines? | 4 | comp.sys.mac.hardware |
Essential tremor is a progressive hereditary tremor that gets worse
when the patient tries to use the effected member. All limbs, vocal
cords, and head can be involved. Inderal is a beta-blocker and
is usually effective in diminishing the tremor. Alcohol and mysoline
are also effective, but alcohol is too toxic to use as a treatment.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks N3JXP | "Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | it is shameful to surrender it too soon." | 13 | sci.med |
Sorry for posting this, but my e-mail keeps bouncing. Maybe it will
help others here, anyway, and therefore I pray others will read this. It is
actually a response from my Aunt, who has 5 kids, since I have none yet.
I'm posting this for a good Christian relative who does not have e-mail
access. Since this aunt and uncle have 5 kids I felt they would be more
relevant than I, who have none (yet).
13-year-old (13YO) twins, 10YO boy, 6.5YO boy, 2YO girl
I don't call it spanking, but they do, so yes, very rarely.
I don't call it spanking because it's more of a reaction to something
very dangerous, such as trying to stick their finger in a fan or running
into the road. Maybe 3-4 times for each except for the 2YO girl, who has
not been spanked yet.
They call it that because it *does* hurt their feelings, and of course
I give all the hugs and stuff to ensure they know they're still loved.
No, that would be too painful. If it's too traumatic they never recall
why they were punished. Besides, it must be immediate, and taking the time
to go get a toolmeans you're not doing it right away, and that lessens the
impact. It's very emotional for a child as it is - which is evidenced by the
fact that a little slap on the rear - which hurts for perhaps 5 seconds -
is called a spanking.
Lots of logical consequences - for instance, when 4YO Matthew dared
a good friend to jump out of his treehouse or he would push him out, I made
sure they didn't play together for 5 days so he'd know that would make him
lose friends very quickly. He's never done anything like that since.
We also use time-out in their rooms - I use a timer so they don't keep
arguing with me over leaving, since it's hard to argue with a macine.
I will go to the closed door and tell them timeout won't be over until they
calm down if they're too tantrumy. I use the top of the stairs when they're
really young.
40
Bath, Ohio. It's right outside of Akron, in the northeast part of Ohio.
No, and none of my kids would dream of it. I hope you can use this to
teach all parents that physical punishment isn't always required - parents use
that as an excuse to hit too hard.
Lots of timeouts, same as I use. Our family and my husband's have never
used spankings. In fact, my grandmother in law was one of 11 kids, and they
were almost never spanked. This was around the turn of the century. And,
none of us has ever been afoul of the law - man-made or God's law.
Jesus says, referring to a small child whom he is holding, that "what
ye do to the least of these, ye do also to me." The Bible also says in all
things to be kind, and merciful, and especially loving. (Colossians 3:12-15.)
There is no room for selfish anger, which I'll admit I've been tempted with
at times. When I've felt like spanking hard in anger, maybe the kid deserved
a little slap on the rear, but what I would have given would have been the
devil's work. I could feel the temptation, and just angrily ordered the kid
to his/her room and went to my room myself. After praying and asking God's
forgiveness, I was much calmer, and did not feel like spanking, but felt that
what I had done was enough punishment. | 15 | soc.religion.christian |
Subsets and Splits